BABYL OPTIONS: Version: 5 Labels: Note: This is the header of an rmail file. Note: If you are seeing it in rmail, Note: it means the file has no messages in it.  1,, Summary-line: 3-Jan SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #1 Date: 3 Jan 84 1336-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #1 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 3 Jan 84 1336-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #1 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 3 Jan 1983 Volume 9 : Issue 1 Today's Topics: Books - Eddings & Book Request & Reviews Films - Use of Holograms Miscellaneous - Parsec Definition ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Dec 83 23:09:21-PST (Thu) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!philabs!aecom!jsanders @ Ucb-Vax Subject: next book in the Belgariad Bad news folks: The next book of the Belgariad by David Eddings (book 4; Castle of Wizardry) isn't due out till the spring. The fifth and final book (Enchanted End Game) is expected out within a month of book 4 though. If you havn't read this delightful fantasy yet - I strongly recommend it. The three books already published are: Pawn of Prophecy, Queen of Sorcery, and Magician's Gambit. Jeremy Sanders {philabs|pegasus|esquire|cucard}!aecom!{sanders|jsanders} ------------------------------ Date: 24 Dec 1983 14:28:48-EST From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX Subject: story request The actor-vs-robot story you describe is indeed "The Darfsteller"; it was a Hugo winner in the 50's and accordingly appears in volume one of the Hugo winners series, edited by Asimov. My recollection is that it was written by Walter M. Miller, but I wouldn't swear. . . . ------------------------------ Date: Thu 29 Dec 83 02:34:30-CST From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA Subject: BOOKS: Correy, Llewellyn, Varley, Brin, Kingsbury, Cherryh, Subject: Pope, MacAvoy, (Scarborough, and Lanier) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ (Mostly) RECENT AND READABLE ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Books get tossed onto a pile near my terminal when there's something about them which prompts an impulse to send a comment to SF-LOVERS whenever time permits. Time, unfortunately, is rarely that kind, so that when it IS, I can no longer recall what I wanted to say because of all the other books read in the meantime. Lanier's MENACE UNDER MARSWOOD is sitting here, for instance, and I haven't a clue as to why. Vaguely I have a feeling it might have been a disappointment, that the latter part reminded me of old-time SF with Martian settings, and not the ones which are still effective like Leigh Brackett's. However, here's a report on the stack, which may incline someone to try a title they otherwise might not have. As one man's meat is another's poison, y'know, I'll warn you of 2 salient characteristics of my taste. The primary one is that I abhor "downers" and require at least a happy ending. (But, valiant humans defeating the villainous machinations of an e-e-evil computer are NOT considered happy endings. Evil computers so strain the credibility of a story that I can't be bothered reading such gook.) Secondarily, I much prefer SF to fantasy, tho it can as well be adventurous as "hard". The more productive of my preferred authors are, in no particular order-- Hogan, Busby, A.D. Foster, Clement, Clarke, Kapp, pre-Witch World Norton, McCaffrey, Schmitz, Dickson, James White, Garrett, Leinster, and, tho no one else probably remembers him, a writer of to-me-charming 3rd-rate SF, Philip E. High. There are other less-productive favorites like our Dr. Forward-- Correy, Sheffield, etc., but the above are those with at least 6 books on the "worth re-reading" section of my shelves. MANNA by Lee Correy: Just about \any/thing by this author, under either of his names, is worth reading, and this latest one is no exception. What I found particularly intriguing was the detailed background he'd worked out for the setting (a fictitious nation on the east coast of Africa) even tho relatively little of the detail was worked into the story. I've heard of PsiPhi [pace, John Quarterman] writers working up detailed descriptions of an alien planet, but never a \nation/ to a comparable extent. The 2-1/2 page "[excerpt] from THE TERRESTRIAL ALMANAC AND BOOK OF FACTS, 2050" appended at the end has such verisimilitude that it could be used as one of the fake entries which major reference books include to trap pirates and plagiarism. Good story, too. PRELUDE TO CHAOS, and, SALVAGE AND DESTROY by Edward Llewellyn. This writer is a prime candidate for SF's "Underappreciated Author" roster. Oh, his stuff isn't GREAT, but it's GOOD, competent stuff. And, he doesn't write depressingly, which is too often the case with better writers. SALVAGE... has rather more stock SF elements than I'd like, so is a bit short on imaginativeness, but still a pretty satisfying read. PERSISTENCE OF VISION by John Varley is hardly recent, but it's been cropping up recently on SF-L, and here's another accolade. I hardly ever read short SF; it takes at least the length of a component of an old Ace "double" to satisfy me (never CAN remember the relative length of a `novella' vs. a `novelette'). But \this/ collection is an outstanding exception. Only the title story completely turns me off, while "The Phantom of Kansas" and "In the Hall of the Martian Kings" are among my favorite SF of any length, "Overdrawn at the Memory Bank" is one of my favorite SF computer stories, etc., etc. If you haven't read this book, I almost envy you for the pleasure still awaiting. PRIDE OF CHANUR by C.J. Cherryh is also not new, but it came in 2nd only to Asimov for '82, and for MY money, was a much more enjoyable read than FOUNDATION'S EDGE which I found myself just flipping thru. I read all of Cherryh's books, because they're GOOD even tho I don't \enjoy/ them enough to keep for re-reading. So I wish so much that PRIDE... (nice pun!) \had/ won the Hugo, to influence her to write more in the same vein, since it's the first book she's done that's really an "upper". If you've been put off by her regretable tendency toward mild depressiveness, here's a chance to really enjoy something by this otherwise top-notch writer. STAR TIDE RISING by David Brin, I agree, is probably the best SF novel of the year. Much better than his earlier SUNFALL(?), which was, itself, quite adequate. RITE OF PASSAGE by Kingsbury(?) is difficult to characterize. It held me fascinated by a wealth of unusually intriguing ideas until, when I got to the part about her comfortingly serving him a special delicacy, baby-liver pate', I suddenly realized I wasn't really \enjoying/ the story, however fascinating, and left the rest unread. THE PERILOUS GARD by Elizabeth Marie Pope has been a long time deserving the wider distribution which it may get as a Magic Quest title in Berkeley's Tempo paperbacks. Tho I do read it occasionally, fantasy is not really my kind of thing. There are notable exceptions, of course, one of which is when the magic is competently handled and the story is humorous. [If there are others on SF-L who relish fantasy when it's humorous AND the writer obviously knows his Grammarie, some noteworthy instances of this type are-- Garrett's "Lord Darcy" stories, Stasheff's WARLOCK IN SPITE OF HIMSELF, (surprisingly) Koontz' THE HAUNTED EARTH, Simak's hybrid THE GOBLIN RESERVATION, and the rather uneven XANTH series of Piers Anthony.] The other time I'll go for a GOOD fantasy over an ordinary SF book is when it is just that: the quality of the work is outstanding, as with the RING trilogy, McKillip's RIDDLEMASTER series, or the 1st two of Wrightson's WIRRUN books. PERILOUS GARD is unlike any of those, but can hold its head up in such company. Perhaps, despite the complete dichotomy of setting-- Tudor England vs. contemporary Australia-- its aristocratic heroine and Wrightson's Aborigine hero share an element of similarity in their matter-of-fact-outlook. A clever ploy of the author is to allow almost every seemingly super-natural aspect of the story open to a rational explanation, while leaving \this/ hard-headed reader preferring the magical. A special quality the writing in this book has is likely to be unknown to all but a handful of people-- its read-aloud-ability. When it first came out in hardback, I was recording SF for the Iowa State Library for the Blind. Unfortunately, I ran out of available time for recording all the books I had practiced on, but I did discover that a "real good book" might not be good for reading aloud. Specifically, Clement's MISSION OF GRAVITY. It would be hard to imagine any reputable "SF BEST" list without that title in it, but the plodding style (sentence structure?) makes it just about imPOSSible to read with any animation. Leinster's also have a bit of this quality, but nowhere nearly as bad. It was like trying to walk fast through knee-deep water. Yet, MISSION... is a \darned/ good story. Anyhow, nothing I ever read so rrrolllllled off the tongue, and I've done a lot of interpretive reading in my day, as PERILOUS GARD. And it, too, is a darned good story even if it IS fantasy. DAMIANO by R.A. MacAvoy was something I picked up at the SF-&-skiffy bookstore in desperation because there was nothing else new to fill in unexpected free time. LOCUS had recommended it, and there was a laudatory blurb by McCaffrey on the cover, but I was still smarting from having just struggled through the series including BRONWYN'S BANE which had similar recommendations. (The 1st, SONG OF SORCERY, wasn't so bad, but they got progressively worse. \Humorous/ fantasy is fine, but I can't stomach "cutesy".) DAMIANO, however, was a serendipitous selection. Excellent! I could even stomach the archangel! The background of 14th century Savoy and Lombardy-- a new one in fantasy so far as I know, is skillfully handled (distinctly more authentic than Kurtz' Gwynedd=Wales) and particularly suitable for fantasy-- far better than the amorphous quasi-medieval-Europe too often used. Most telling, for me, was the special kind of "tingle" this book produced, a certain indefinable aura which, I find, characterizes \quality/ in high fantasy. This has it! ------------------------------ Date: 27 Dec 83 14:41:28 PST (Tuesday) Subject: Re: Holy hologram! From: Kevin Holy hologram! Everybody's finding computer effects in movies! Even where they may not exist! "I found the movie a bit [ROTJ] dull, but spent lots of time looking at the rasters in the images." -- Dave Mason, U. Toronto CSRG ". . . seemed obviously computer-generated to me: Indiana Jones dropping the staff down into the buried room. . ." --hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!bukys @ Ucb-Vax Anything that looks grainy or is just a poorly done special effect has the "computer look." Like the "ground effect" around the vehicle escaping from Jaba's barge (mentioned by Dave Mason above). And things that were *not* done by computer are mistaken for computer effects. For instance, the projection of Princess Leia (sic?) from R2D2 in SW. In the documentary about the movie they *say* they filmed a TV image of her, and that's what gave it the holographic quality. Yet I still hear several people referring to that as a computer generated image. I'm not a computer special effects expert, but I don't like people getting so obsessed by computer effects that they start finding them everywhere, ignoring the fact that the scene was poorly filmed, not giving credit to the ingenuity of doing it another way (the Leia image), not paying attention to the movie itself, and spreading a kind of computer illiteracy by attributing to computer technology what some creative people can do with stone knives and bear skins. As a side note, I was disappointed by the lack of better effects in ROTJ. It seemed like just more of the same, but just done better. I suppose when you use the same people you get the same look. I was also disappointed by the small number of computer effects. While it's true that they shouldn't just throw the effects in to have them, and the wire diagram fits the need of the scene, I was looking forward to seeing some new things, especially after hearing talks by some Lucasfilm people. Maybe they're still developing some effects. Maybe they'll give us something like "The Works" since it seems the New York Institute of Technology will complete "The Works" in 1995 if they can only finish a few (though from what I've seen from stills, excellent) minutes a year. It's going to take an organization like Lucasfilm, with the people, money, and name, to get a fully computer generated film to a theater near you. ~Kevin ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 29 December 1983 02:08 est From: "Barry Margolin"@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: parsec definition The definition of a parsec is the length of the perpendicular or side (I don't remember which, but they are pretty close to each other) of an isosoles (sp?) triangle whose base is 2 AU and whose vertex angle is 1 second. The relationship to the physical derivation of the term is that a stationary (relative to the sun) object is one parsec away if it has a parallax of one second of arc when viewed from opposite points in the earth's orbit. This has probably been long abandoned as an accurate definition, since the earth's orbit is not a circle, and therefore does not have a constant diameter; it is presumably defined in terms of light-years these days. barmar ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 4-Jan SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #2 Date: 4 Jan 84 1557-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #2 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 4 Jan 84 1557-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #2 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 4 Jan 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 2 Today's Topics: Books - Bradley (2 msgs) & Brook & MacAvory & Hugo Award Nominations & Matriarchies, Television - Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Films - Use of Holograms, Miiscellaneous - Speed of Light & Parsecs ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 31 Dec 83 23:59:35 CST From: hjjh Subject: Darkover ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Darkover Chronology ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Based on the listing in THE DARKOVER CONCORDANCE by Walter Breen (MZB's husband), with any subsequent books I can recall slipped in where it seems likely they belong, the sequence based on internal chronology is: DARKOVER LANDFALL STORMQUEEN HAWKMISTRESS! TWO TO CONQUER THE SPELL SWORD THE SHATTERED CHAIN THENDARA HOUSE THE FORBIDDEN TOWER STAR OF DANGER THE BLOODY SUN WINDS OF DARKOVER HERITAGE OF HASTUR SWORD OF ALDONES concurrent with SHARRA'S EXILE THE PLANET SAVERS THE WORLD WRECKERS ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jan 84 16:02:57 EST From: LIz Subject: Bradley The best book to start the series with is THE SPELL SWORD, followed by THE FORBIDDEN TOWER. Then try THE RED SUN????(title paraphrased) and then go on...you can ignore DARKOVER LANDFALL entirely. The books of short stories are so-so and there was one novel about virtual twins (staged in the Age of Chaos) that did nothing for me. Most of the books are excellent, there is no specific order of reading - but this order makes some sense. liz// ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jan 1984 23:10-PST Subject: Elfstones From: Craig E. Ward I just finished Terry Brook's "The Elfstones of Shannara". It is a sequel to his "Sword of Shannara". The time is about 50 years after the first novel. Most of the characters from the first are either old or dead. We have Shea's grandson, Wil, who is talked into going on another quest by Allanon (one of the returning characters). This time the Forbidding that has prevented the evil race of Demons from over running the entire world is failing and Wil must guard the last remaining person, an elf girl, who can restore the magic. If anything, it is better than the first. There are more interesting characters than I remember there being in the last. Brooks sets up a very interesting relationship between Wil, the elf girl and a gipsy-like female. Also, he shows us the changing relationship between an aging king and his second oldest son. I did find one fault though, he spends to much time on battle scenes but they are related somewhat to the developing king/son relationship mentioned above. On the whole, I have to recommend this one. Not bad for a lawyer from Illinois (where they thought they had a football team). ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jan 84 14:14:21 PST (Mon) From: Sonia Schwartzberg Subject: R.A.MacAvory's "Damiyano" NOT A SPOILER Among all the new authors, one has come to my attention, and I thought I'd pass on my review of R.A.MacAvory's second (to my knowledge) recent book, "Damiyano". (My spelling of author's name may be subject to faulty memory). I am not sure, upon reflection, exactly where I got the information that the author is a woman, and my apologies if I am wrong, but I will continue under the assumption that I am right. MacAvory has written two books that I know about, this being her second and "Tea With the Black Dragon" being her first. I don't know if I'd call "T.W.T.B.D." fantasy, but "Damiyano" definitely is. After reading "T.W.T.B.D.", I felt reading this new book might be a good gamble. Her first book definitely had charm, wit, and an almost-quite-decent plot (a friend of mine huffily calls this a "matter of opinion" and would remove the "almost," but I won't). "T.W.T.B.D" was not without its flaws, but these flaws were fairly easy for me to overlook, both because this is a first book and because of the author's very nice execution of the story and characters. Now for the second book. Since I'm not sure just what constitutes a "spoiler", I won't outline the plot at all, I'll just tell you what I think. I confess I raised a suspicious eyebrow (or two) when the back cover proclaimed "Damiyano" the first in a trilogy -- how many new authors begin by advertising a trilogy? (Yes, but how many of these are GOOD?) But the proof is in the reading, so I gave it a try. "Damiyano" has more flaws than "T.W.T.B.D.", unfortunately. MacAvory is bent on describing everything, and though she does not fall into the unbearable superlative modes that many (often otherwise quite decent) authors do, this does get a little tiring. The plot is a little weak and this being the first in a trilogy, (though we'll see about that -- the 2nd part is due April '84) doesn't excuse that as far as I am concerned. Her characterization, however, is quite good, and her humor is superb, as it was in "T.W.T.B.D." I can see her writing some very good stuff, but I feel she needs some work. Despite all these criticisms, I must admit to having enjoyed the story. It reads well and is entertaining. And to anyone who read "Tea With the Black Dragon" and loved it (or liked it a lot), "Damiyano" is worth reading. sonia@aids-unix ------------------------------ Date: 1 January 1984 16:36 EST From: Steven A. Swernofsky Subject: Hugo nominations I recently received a nominating ballot for the 1984 Hugo and John W. Campbell Awards. Works published in 1983 (or whose first English appearance is 1983) are eligible for the awards. Nominations are due by March 17, 1984. I would like contributors to SF-LOVERS to suggest works which they think are worth reading and then nominating. Here are the categories: Best Novel over 40 K words Best Novella 17.5 to 40 K words Best Novelette 7.5 to 17.5 K words Best Short Story under 7.5 K words Best Non-Fiction Book Best Dramatic Presentation Best Professional Editor Best Professional Artist Best Semiprozine 1K+ copies, paid staff, etc. Best Fanzine anything not a semiprozine Best Fan Writer Best Fan Artist John W. Campbell Award new writer, first work is 82 or 83 Of course the Hugo Nominating ballot and LAconII Progress Report 2 gives a more complete description of eligibility criteria. Thanx for your suggestions! -- Steve ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jan 84 15:58:18 EST From: LIz Subject: matriarchies You will find matriarchies in Joanna Russ' The Female Man and many of her other books. (I like this book - even though most of my friends think it is terrible - of course I like Dahlgren also...) A very interesting matriarchy is in (author unremembered and my books are still packed) the two book series containing Walk to the End of the World Motherlines. liz// Ps. These are both in the radical feminist-lesbian tradition - but they are definitly science fiction. If you are interested in matriarchies per se - try Jane Harrison's Themis - published early in this century but reprinted within the last ten years. This book deals with the conflict between matriarchy and patriarchy in Hellenic Greece as a source of myth. ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 3 Jan 1984 06:32:44-PST From: decwrl!rhea!quill!wecker@SU-Shasta I'm trying to locate a science fiction story (it appeared in a collection of short stories) that had the following plot elements: 1) Took place in the future 2) The hero was sent out from earth in a single man "spaceship" on a mission of general discovery (The spaceship is in quotes because it was more than a spaceship.. it was an extension of himself). 3) He was the symbol of the best that could be achieved by man (and knew it). 4) He could go anywhere and do anything.. and thought that he was virtually a God. 5) Needless to say he came across an intelligence that swatted him out of space like a fly and completely humiliated him.. stripping him of everything including his humanity. 6) Most of the story focuses on him as an animal regaining some semblence of concious thought and eventually defeating the alien that had tried to crush him. 7) At the end he returns to earth in the aliens ship.. however due to what he's been through he is no longer really human, and everyone else knows it. Does it ring a bell for anyone? It was one of the most powerful short stories I ever read... and of course I neglected to write down the title or authors name. My guess is that is was written in the 50s or early 60s and the version I read was in hard cover. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Dec 83 13:48:07-PST (Thu) From: decvax!microsoft!fluke!witters @ Ucb-Vax Subject: The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy (Seattle Area) The Radio series of The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy will be broadcast beginning Monday January 2nd, 1984 on KUOW FM 94.9 MHz Seattle at 6:30 P.M.. The Television series will be broadcast beginning Saturday January 28th, 1984 on KCTS channel 9 Seattle at 8:30 P.M.. In my opinion, the radio series is better than the television series. Here is your chance to find out for yourselves. ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jan 84 13:40:43-PST (Sun) From: decvax!linus!utzoo!utcsrgv!mason @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Holy hologram! Kevin is quite right, the rasters do not imply computer generated, merely computer massaged. There were (it seemed) virtually no computer generated images. The rasters (and the ground effects around aircars) are the results of a sloppy job with the blue-screening machines (as opposed to the blue- meanie scrachines). The interesting question is: once they get the images into a computer (as opposed to generating them) what is the limit to what they can do with them. As mentioned, the current state of the art with truly computer generated images is SLOW (though high quality), but why not use that horse-power to do neat things with video-taped images. As an example of the short term future, go to see TRON: the story's a little (a LITTLE?) weak, but the graphics are great, an innovative combination of computer generated with computer mangled images is quite effective. -- Dave Mason, U. Toronto CSRG, {utzoo,linus,cornell,watmath,ihnp4,allegra,floyd,decwrl, decvax,uw-beaver,ubc-vision}!utcsrgv!mason ------------------------------ Date: Mon 2 Jan 84 10:21:08-EST From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA Subject: Speed of light Just a minor nitpick: the speed of light is NOT the same on Pluto as on Mercury, since it depends on the gravitational potential. It is also not necessarily the same for moving observers in a gravitational field, since their frames of reference might be stressed. Now the real problem: if we can already DETECT a black hole at the center of the galaxy, then we have a lot less than 30,000 years to get out of here. It is one thing for Beowulf Sheaffer to go by FTL drive to see the core, and quite another for visible evidence to reach us at light speed. If we suppose that fast particle radiation travels at up to 99% of the speed of light, then it will start hitting us 300 years after we see the light from matter being sucked into the hole. How much radiation? How much will be emitted in the galactic plane, which presumably is the plane of rotation of the hole (angular momentum being conserved)? Do we panic now, or will it wait until next century? Happy New Year. PS - the giant spiders of Metebelis III get the crystal back, but the Queen Spider (all praise to the Great One!) cannot stand the shock of being so super-intelligent and explodes with lots of cheap special effects. The idea of a spider spinning a web of brain matter may be original to the episode, or may have been lifted from Ballard's The Voices of Time. ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 3 Jan 1984 09:09:18-PST From: Dan L Pierson Subject: Parsecs and SW Shortly after Star Wars first appeared a couple of physicist friends of mine noted that: 1) There is a system of measures of theoretical physics in which everything (length, mass, time) is measured in meters. 2) Han's trip took about 42 years (using Earth parsecs). dan Usenet: decvax!decwrl!rhea!bach!pierson Arpanet: pierson%digital@rand-relay ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 5-Jan SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #3 *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Jan 84 1443-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #3 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 5 Jan 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 3 Today's Topics: Books - Hogan & MacCaffrey & Macleish & Book Request & Reviews & Leiber, Films - Indiana Jones & New Movies for '84 & Holograms, Television - Dr. Who (4 msgs), Miscellaneous - Parsecs ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 Jan 84 0:27:59-PST (Mon) From: hplabs!hp-pcd!hpfcla!hpcnoa!rdg @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: inherit the stars - (nf) I agree that Inherit the Stars didn't have much of a plot, but I think the book was excellent overall; The sequels were pretty good also. How about Hogan's "Genesis Machine?" Now there's a book with plot, science,adventure, etc! I find myself going back to the bookstore for more Hogan books often. Rob Gardner {hpfcla,hp-pcd,csu-cs}!hpcnoa!rdg ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jan 84 12:52:51 GMT (Tuesday) From: Cooper.rx@PARC-MAXC.ARPA Subject: Anne McCaffrey & Dinosaur Planet Apparently, Dinosaur Planet was written before Ms. McCaffrey started on the Dragon... books, and due to the immense success of the latter series, and the eternal continuation of the saga, she simply never got around to finishing off the Dinosaur Planet trilogy. A sad mistake if you ask me. Martin ------------------------------ Date: 30 Dec 83 12:12:22-PST (Fri) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!randvax!jim @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: a book you might find interesting Prince Ombra is indeed by Roderick MacLeish. He does an occasional Spectrum appearance on CBS Radio (KNX in my area). (You know, "Rod MacLeish??) I read the book but wasn't too thrilled with it. There are bunches of avatars of Good throughout the years, as described in the previous note, and they must confront Evil in their own time and either win or lose ... losing dooms the Earth to the effects of Evil until it burns itself out for awhile. (That's not a spoiler yet.) I didn't find the author's vision of the pre-life state very compelling; nor was I impressed with the quality of the competition to the Ultimate Evil ... you wouldn't expect Luke Skywalker or any moisture-farmer of that ilk to be successful against the whole Empire, would you? Me neither. Jim Gillogly I/ / randvax!jim I_/ jim@rand-unix I ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 3 Jan 1984 11:12:42-PST From: Len Alanurm Subject: I was hoping... I am hoping that someone (besides me) has read a story called "SENTINALS FROM SPACE". Author unknown. Plot is basically about some mutants (in the future) that have set themselves up as guardians of humanity. One of the things that they do is break into a castle on Mars to get some bad guys. Their mutant powers are quite awesome as I recall. It was many years ago that I read the story (20 +). If anyone knows name of author, etc, I'd love to know. Len Alanurm Tonto::Alanurm ------------------------------ Date: Wed 4 Jan 84 02:37:07-CST From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA Subject: Corrections ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Righting a Wrong Rite ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ The issue of SF-L with my multi-book review hasn't materialized here yet, but there were 2 mistakes in it needing rectifying. Sonia at AIDS-UNIX contacted me about my substitution of the title of Panshin's RITE OF PASSAGE for Kingsbury's COURTSHIP RITE, and right she is. They are both excellent SF, but \for me/ Kingsbury's COURTSHIP RITE was just not enjoyable. I have some kind of aesthetic idiosyncracy which divorces how much I enjoy a book from how good I think it is. Even recognizing them for what they are, I'm perfectly capable of enjoying junque and disliking something of excellence. (J.M. Roberts' CESTUS DEI, for instance, as opposed to COURTSHIP RITE.) The other error was the inclusion of Colin Kapp among the authors who'd written at least a half dozen books I liked well enough to keep for re-reading. (The \majority/ of the books I purchase get recycled back to the used bookstore.) Some books had gotten mis-shelved and there were actually only 3 of Kapp's earliest ones there. Ordinarily this wouldn't merit a disclaimer except that he's recently started a new series about "shell" Earths, one inside another inside another around the sun, which is ghodawful. Since discussion on SF-L can influence my own purchasing, I didn't want to have been a factor in someone else's picking up the new Kapp's. On the other hand, are there a-n-y other Philip E. High fanciers any- one has ever heard of? ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jan 84 16:09:12-PST (Tue) From: ihnp4!fortune!rpw3 @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: title request - (nf) Re: cat saves us monkey people. Hmmmm... that's strange. All the way through your description I kept thinking, this is just like the pilot of the survey craft that came out from the new planet in "The Wanderer", by Fritz Leiber. But at the end you say you already have the novel. Are you thinking of some other novel, or has it just been awhile since you have read "The Wanderer"???? -Puzzled... Rob Warnock UUCP: {sri-unix,amd70,hpda,harpo,ihnp4,allegra}!fortune!rpw3 DDD: (415)595-8444 USPS: Fortune Systems Corp, 101 Twin Dolphins Drive, Redwood City, CA 94065 p.s. I liked The Wanderer, for those who haven't read it. Another "When Worlds [nearly] Collide". ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 3 Jan 1984 11:55:26-PST From: decwrl!Bill.Lynch@SU-Shasta, decwrl!DTN.381-2837@SU-Shasta, Subject: New Indiana Jones flick In the Boston Globe of 11-Dec-83 there was an ad for the "Raiders of the Lost Ark" video. In this ad, in very small print, was "COMING to a theatre near you May 25, 1984...Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom". Anyone have any details on this sequel? Besides Harrison Ford, anyone else reprising their Raiders roles? Who's directing, producing, writing, etc? Any info would be appreciated (except for the plot!). -- Bill Lynch Digital Equipment Corp Nashua, NH ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 3 Jan 1984 11:56:38-PST From: decwrl!Bill.Lynch@SU-Shasta, decwrl!DTN.381-2837@SU-Shasta, Subject: New movies for '84? Besides the new Indiana Jones flick coming in May, does anyone know of any other big SF films coming? Even next summer... -- Bill Lynch Digital Equipment Corp. Nashua, NH ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jan 84 10:55:03-PST (Mon) From: sun!qubix!msc @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Holy hologram! The rasters do not even imply computer massaged. The image of Princess Leia "projected" from R2D2 never went anywhere near a computer. They merely ran the film of Leia through a telecine machine to get the rasters so it would appear to have been generated by an electronic scanning system (not necessarily a computer). They then superimposed the result on the scene of the watchers. >From the Tardis of Mark Callow msc@qubix.UUCP, decwrl!qubix!msc@Berkeley.ARPA ...{decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!decwrl!qubix!msc, ...{ittvax,amd70}!qubix!msc ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 3 Jan 1984 11:58:42-PST From: decwrl!Bill.Lynch@SU-Shasta, decwrl!DTN.381-2837@SU-Shasta, Subject: Doctor Who book This weekend I found a book in the B. Dalton Bookstore in the Mall of New Hampshire entitled "Doctor Who, A Celebration, Two Decades Through Time and Space". Although it costs $17.95, it is well worth it if you are a fan of the Doctor! It contains chapters on the genesis of the show and its evolution through the years (written by people who were involved in the production), biographies of all the Doctor actors (including their own views of the part), features on the Daleks, the Dr Who movies, the Doctor's companions, the Master and backstage glimpses of the show from directors, producers and writers. Perhaps the best part of the book is a section containing a synopsis of each episode (through the '82-'83 season). The summaries range from one paragraph to a whole page. The book also contains lots of photos. If you are a Whovian (that's what the fan clubs call themselves), you should get this book! BTW: One missing piece is any detail about the 20th Anniversary show; the book was published in May '83. There are a few references to the show: I found out that the Tom Baker scenes in 'The Five Doctors' were taken from an serial called 'Shada' that was never finished due to a strike at the BBC and therefore never shown before. -- Bill Lynch Digital Equipment Corp. Nashua, NH ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 3 Jan 1984 11:57:18-PST From: decwrl!Bill.Lynch@SU-Shasta, decwrl!DTN.381-2837@SU-Shasta, Subject: Cast changes in Doctor Who?? I have picked up rumblings in recent SFLs that there have been changes made in the Dr Who casting. Someone said that Peter Davison was out (after second season?), a new man brought in (Colin Baker?) and he replaced in short order. Rumor was that Jon Pertwee (Dr #3) was coming back! Anybody out there (especially people in England) have the straight news?? -- Bill Lynch Digital Equipment Corp. Nashua, NH ------------------------------ Date: 3 January 1984 22:23 est From: TMPLee.DODCSC at MIT-MULTICS Subject: Dr. Who Fan Club? Does anyone have the address of a midwestern Dr. Who fan club? (the address of the national one would also be of interest.) (reply direct unless you want SFL to be flooded with several identical answers.) Ted Lee ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jan 84 14:15:46 PST (Mon) From: Sonia Schwartzberg Subject: Dr. Who On New Year's Eve I saw my first Dr. Who series, and I have only one question: How does the lady keep that hat from falling off of her head?????? ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jan 84 16:08:12-PST (Tue) From: ihnp4!fortune!rpw3 @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: What a 'parasec' is. - (nf) Sorry to be picky, but the astronomical term is 'parsec' (two syllables), not 'parasec' (3 syl.). As defined in Webster's New Collegiate: parsec: [par-allax + sec-ond] n. a unit of measure for interstellar space equal to a distance having a heliocentric parallax of one second [of arc] or to 206,265 times the radius of Earth's orbit or to 3.26 light-years or to 19.2 trillion miles. Parsecs are DISTANCE, not time, no matter what Trek says. One could go so many parsec/sec (REALLY fast) or parsec/year (still a good bit faster than light). If Trek really says 'parasec' (pa-ra-sec), then it's a perfectly acceptable made-up science fiction term that (from its construction) must mean "a kind of second". Again from Webster: para-: [Greek: akin to] prefix. 1. beside, alongside of, beyond, aside from (parathyroid); 2. closely related to (paraldehyde); 3. faulty, abnormal (paresthesia), b. associated in a subsidiary or accessary manner (paramedical), c. closely resembling, almost (paratyphoid). One can only guess that at high warp speeds time ain't what it seems compared to the rest of the universe so time flies in parasecs??? Rob Warnock UUCP: {sri-unix,amd70,hpda,harpo,ihnp4,allegra}!fortune!rpw3 DDD: (415)595-8444 USPS: Fortune Systems Corp, 101 Twin Dolphins Drive, Redwood City, CA 94065 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 6-Jan SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #4 *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Jan 84 1548-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #4 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 6 Jan 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 4 Today's Topics: Books - Anderson & Kingsbury & Orwell & Wolfe & Matriarchal Societies & Sime/Gen & Star Trek, Films - Favorite SF Movies & Vector Graphics, Television - Dr. Who, Miscellaneous - Speed of Light & Parsecs & Simultaneous Multiple Adventurer Games ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 Jan 84 09:15 PST (Thursday) From: Hallgren.pa@PARC-MAXC.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #2 In answer to the title request: The story is IN THE BONE by Poul Anderson. I have it in an old IF magazine, and it is in one of his collections. Pretty good story. I was surprised after reading the story that Poul Anderson had written it. It has some of the flavor of his AFTER DOOMSDAY. I wish Anderson would write a few more short stories set in the "Flandry" era. Clark H. ------------------------------ Date: Thu 5 Jan 84 00:29:50-EST From: Janice Subject: COURTSHIP RITE by Donald Kingsbury If you're going to review a book, no matter how half-heartedly, please get the title right! (Especially when the book was a Hugo nominee and won at least one award.) RITE OF PASSAGE is a well-known book by Alexei Panshin and has nothing to do with this book, which, by the way, is one of the most inventive AND enjoyable I've ever read, despite the baby's-liver pate. I recommend it to everyone -- thought it was better than at least three of the other Hugo nominees. Janice ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jan 1984 21:24-EST From: Dragon Subject: Orwell and "predictions" I see "1984" as a warning at most, not as prediction. I do not know enough about Orwell or 1948 England to know if it was intended as a satire of socialism, as is often said these days. -D ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 3 Jan 1984 11:56:02-PST From: decwrl!Bill.Lynch@SU-Shasta, decwrl!DTN.381-2837@SU-Shasta, Subject: Urth of the New Sun? I am currently reading "The Citadel of the Autarch", Volume 4 of Gene Wolfe's "Book of the New Sun". There is mention in the author's biography in the back of the book that Wolfe is working on another novel dealing with the same period ("Urth of the New Sun"?)...Anyone have any word on this book? I've never seen it in any bookstores. -- Bill Lynch Digital Equipment Corp. Nashua, NH ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jan 1984 1934-EST From: John Redford Subject: Matriarchal societies Re: the inquiry about matriarchies in science fiction: A quick pass over my library yields a number of books containing matriarchal societies: The Pride of Chanur - C. J. Cherryh - Alien females behave like the saltiest of sailors while the males lounge around the home planet. A World Between - Norman Spinrad - Fairly crude sexual allegory that contrasts a lesbian society, a Faustian male culture, and a sexually balanced, albeit gaggingly mellow, planet. The Female Man - Joanna Russ - Have not actually read. Pursuit of the Screamer - Ansen Dibell - Women stay on top in a low-tech trading culture by means of telepathy and alien female mercenaries. Watch the Northwind Rise - Robert Graves - Here's an obscure one. This is a utopian novel by the well-known English poet. In it he expresses his ideas about how the archetypal figure he calls The White Goddess might manifest herself in a future society. The Tombs of Atuan - Ursula Le Guin - Middle volume of the Earthsea trilogy. A society run by priestesses. Then there are the stories of cultures with permanent queens. Women aren't actually in charge at the lower levels, but a queen is the source of ultimate authority. In this category you find: The Snow Queen - Joan Vinge The Black Flame - Stanley Weinbaum She - H. Rider Haggard plus a whole lot of A. Merritt stuff which I don't have on hand. Most of this counts as male fantasy rather than as serious speculation as to how women would run things. The same goes for the stories of Amazon races, of which I can't think of any good examples right now. Hope this helps your data gathering. /jlr ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Dec 83 13:38 EST From: Andrew D. Sigel Subject: Sime/Gen - Star Trek Bill Beikman stated that MOLT BROTHER by Jacqueline Lichtenberg was part of her Sime/Gen universe; this is not accurate. MOLT BROTHER is the first (and, thus far, the only) volume of a series called Book of the First Lifewave. Jacqueline seems to write in series. Jean Lorrah's novel, SAVAGE EMPIRE, is totally unrelated to Sime/Gen. It is also the first volume of a series; the second volume, DRAGON LORD OF THE SAVAGE EMPIRE has been out for some time, and the third, CAPTIVES OF THE SAVAGE EMPIRE, is due out from Berkley in February, at which time the other volumes will be re-released by Berkley, to replace the old Playboy Paperbacks editions. Jean Lorrah got started in Star Trek fan fiction, and she has sold a novel to Pocket: THE VULCAN ACADEMY MURDERS. And while I'm messily segueing into Star Trek, Diane Duane (author of THE WOUNDED SKY, perhaps the best ST novelization yet, and certainly on a par with THE ENTROPY EFFECT) is also finishing up a new Star Trek novel; she read bits of it at Worldcon, and it sounds excellent. Diane Duane (as the segue comes to a close) is an excellent author; may I recommend THE DOOR INTO FIRE as a must-read book? It will finally be coming back into print this spring sometime (it was part of the ill-fated Dell line), and its sequel will finally see print at about the same time. I have heard good things about her Young Adult novel (YA the way Heinlein is considered a YA author for his novels like THE STAR BEAST), which is called SO YOU WANT TO BE A WIZARD? and just came out in hardcover from Delacorte. Andrew Sigel ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 3 Jan 1984 11:58:05-PST From: decwrl!Bill.Lynch@SU-Shasta, decwrl!DTN.381-2837@SU-Shasta, Subject: Fave SF movies I'd like to get some discussion going of people's favorite SF movies (use your discretion in defining what an 'SF' movie is...). I would enjoy seeing some reasons behind the selections. To get things rolling, here are some of mine: 2001, A Space Odyssey -- Numero Uno, bar none. I think this is the ONLY true Science Fiction movie ever made. Scientifically accurate and thought provoking. Although the special effects seem dated now, they are still fantastic! I think my favorite effect was the shot of the space station (with the approaching Pan Am liner in synch) that closes on the station until the camera seems to pass right through it. And the music! I could go on... Alien -- A good old haunted house story set in space. Good acting, excellent effects (love that monster, small and large!), magnificent sets (loved the lived-in look of the Nostromo) and enough chills and thrills for ten other films. Great fun! Frankenstein -- The one and only Boris Karloff version. Great campy acting! Set the style for countless films of this type for decades to come, but none approached the original. The Star Wars Saga -- What can one say that hasn't already been said a thousand times? Simply a magnificent achievement. Invasion of the Body Snatchers -- Both versions. 50's version is a great subtle commentary on the McCarthy Era. Remake is also quite good (although not AS good...). Loved the appearance of Kevin McCarthy (star of the original) in the remake (did YOU catch him??). Altered States -- A much maligned film. Very good acting (William Hurt can do no wrong in my opinion) and very chilling scenes (the halucinations (sp?) in the cave and the isolation tank scenes stand out). Although it fails somewhat in the final scenes, this is still an excellent film. Close Encounters of the Third Kind -- I really liked this movie although a lot of people seem to consider it a lesser-quality film by Spielburg. I thought the acting was first-rate, the pace relentless and the music outstanding. Favorite scenes: Opening in the desert, crowds in India, final encounter. I did not particularly like the added scenes in the 'special edition'; should have left well enough alone. I could probably think of more, but I'll stop here and leave the door open for others' opinions. Note: except for 2001, there is no significance to the order of the above list. -- Bill Lynch Digital Equipment Corp. Nashua, NH ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jan 84 1:19:22 EST From: Ron Natalie Subject: Re: E&S Vector Graphics in movies? The E&S Picture Systemes (model numbers 1, 2, and 300) are big vector guys. E&S was used for the simulator display in The Wrath of Khan (the Kobimishi Maru or what ever). It was also used to create the opening sequence in TRON. This is the one that starts out with the appearance of one falling into a graph paper tunnel and having MICR letters flying at you. These were both done with their VECTOR equipment. Our E&S salesman had these and other things on a Brag video tape that he brought out once. He also mentioned that one of their engineers had written his name backwards in the corner of the screen on the TWOK sequences. However, we single framed through them on the VHS version of it and were unable to find any traces of it. It was easier finding the magic hole in the fractal mountain. -Ron ------------------------------ Date: 24 Dec 83 19:26:08-PST (Sat) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!futrelle @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Official DrWho Scarf - (nf) This is the official BBC pattern for Tom Baker's multicolored scarf as Dr. Who. I want to thank Bill Scheaffer for getting me the pattern and my Grandmother for knitting the scarf, which I am wearing right now. Requirements: #9 kniting needle 1 ounce balls of yarn as follows: 3 purple 6 camel The tassels are made from 3 bronz 1 inch lenghs of yarn. 7 3 musta tassels on each end, comb- 4 rust ining all 7 colors. 3 grey 4 greenish brown (referred to as "green") Cast on 60 stitches (Mine is 40 and is almost a foot wide. 40 should lengthen the scarf a little). Always slip the first stitch. Knit in the following order: =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= 8 purple rows 52 camel 16 bronze 10 mustard 22 rust 8 purple 20 green 8 mustard 28 camel 14 rust 8 bronze 10 purple 42 green 8 mustard 16 grey 8 rust 54 camel 10 purple 12 green 8 mustard 18 rust 8 purple 38 bronze 10 camel 8 grey 40 rust 14 mustard 20 green 88 purple 42 camel 12 bronze 20 grey 8 rust 12 purple 6 camel 14 mustard 54 green 16 rust 12 grey 8 mustard 20 bronze 10 purple 12 camel 32 grey 10 rust 10 mustard CAST OFF ------------------------------ Date: Thu 5 Jan 84 01:31:50-EST From: Joseph A. Frisbie Subject: Speed of Light The speed of light is rarely the same, it depends on the material it is passing through. (A lot slower in dielectrics.) The density of the vacuum is probably greater closer to the sun. Also aren't there gravitational effects, or do space and time change proportionally? Joe ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jan 84 0:45:04 EST From: Ron Natalie Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V8 #135 My favorite was always Battlestar Gallactica which used microns and centons as units of both time and distance. The Menagerie features a visit to the Talos star system (in violation of Star Fleet General order 7) which makes the beings Talosians of no particular religious persuasion. Let's do the time warp, again! -Ron ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jan 84 0:49:08 EST From: Ron Natalie Subject: STAR TREK Origins. You forgot to mention the unsucessful MANTRAP pilot which was later redone as an episode. -Ron ------------------------------ Date: 27 Dec 83 19:44:16-PST (Tue) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!ctvax!uokvax!rigney @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Re: 'parsecs' as time or distance -- - (nf) I loved this "explanation," and I bet if it you forwarded it to net.astro.expert they would indeed tell you where to go! :-) Carl ..!ctvax!uokvax!rigney ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jan 84 03:35:21 EST From: Charles Subject: SMAuG-Lovers Digests Hello, The Simultaneous Multiple Adventurer Game (SMAuG) group publishes the 'SMAuG-Lovers Digest', a compilation of mail regarding software and game issues. Format is like the SF-Lovers digests, but without the "today's topic" field. The SMAuG project is an attempt to write a multi-player role-playing game that incorporates the complexity of a Zork-like game, but allowing player interaction and action and interaction with semi-intelligent Non-Player Characters (NPCs). If you would like to receive these digests, please send a request to mcgrew.smaug@RU-BLUE. They will be mailed out one at a time until all who ask to receive them are 'up-to-date' (there are 16 digests.) People wishing to contribute thoughts, opinions, or brickbats to the SMAuG project, send mail to SMAUG@RUTGERS. Thanks, Charles ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 9-Jan SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #5 *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Jan 84 1406-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #5 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 9 Jan 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 5 Today's Topics: Books - Bradley & Brooks & MacAvory & Maccaffrey & Cats in SF & Book Request, Films - Indiana Jones & Upcoming SF Movies, Miscellaneous - Parsecs & Escaping Black Holes & Judge Dredd Inquiry ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 Jan 1984 15:14:34-EST From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX Subject: Darkover chronology: THE FORBIDDEN TOWER \\immediately// follows THE SPELL SWORD; as little as 2 days could lapse between them. Since Ellemir has several children in THENDARA HOUSE this must be some years later (more precise number of years from Aleki's memories of the missing surveyor (= Anndra/ Andrew Carr). Also, SHARRA'S EXILE is effectively a rewrite of SWORD OF ALDONES, not simply concurrent with it. preference: DARKOVER LANDFALL is before the end of the shift from fairly straight adventure to more involved stories about people (going by when written, not where fitting---note that THE BLOODY SUN started as a pot boiler and was heavily rewritten and expanded after the shift), but it is [important] because it provides a major underpinning for most of the subsequent books; it was written to contradict Lester del Rey's assertion that a crashed spaceship retaining a modest amount of its technology would inevitably foster a similarly technological society. DL and "Vai Dom" (one of the shorts) are justification for much of the history that shapes the later books. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jan 84 16:15:22 pst From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin) I found "Two to Conquer" by M.Z. Bradley, to be an extremely well written novel - with many thought provoking images. It is my favorite novel in all the Darkover chronicles - in it MZB demonstrates profound insight in the development and characterization of "virtual twins", one a lord of Darkover - the other a Terra criminal and rapist, both warped by the societies that produced them. Steve ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jan 84 16:29:03-PST (Wed) From: decvax!ittvax!wxlvax!rlw @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Elfstones The Sword of Shannara was obviously a narrative put to a D&D adventure. Is the sequel the same sort of thing? --Dick Wexelblat ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jan 84 17:25:41 PST (Wednesday) From: Caro.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #2 Re: "R.A.MacAvory's "Damiyano" NOT A SPOILER" from Sonia Schwartzberg First of all, the author's name is spelled 'MacAvoy'. Also, the novel is called 'Damiano'. Second: I refer to your statement, "[Tea With the Black Dragon] was not without its flaws, but these flaws were fairly easy for me to overlook..." Well, yes, I suppose that non-existent flaws WOULD be easy to overlook... Seriously, I would be most gratified if you would elaborate upon the flaws that you found with TWTBD. I personally found the book flawless, but it is entirely possible that I've missed something. And I care enough about the book and the author to hear anyone's opinion, for or against. Perry ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 6 Jan 1984 08:25:04-PST From: Dan L Pierson Subject: Re: Dinosaur Planet According to a talk by Anne McCaffery at a mid-70s Balticon, the Dinosaur planet series was commissioned by a British(?) publisher that hoped to duplicate the success of dragons. Unfortunately, the publisher pretty much put here in a straight jacket that called for a very superficial action story without the depth of her best work. At the time she was planning to do some "real" books in the Dinosaur planet setting after the contract expired. Since we have seen nothing after the first book I have no idea what happened with all of this. I certainly agree with her poor opinion of Dinosaur Planet - it doesn't approach the Pern books, or any of her other good work. dan Arpanet: pierson%digital@rand-relay Usenet: ...!decvax!decwrl!rhea!bach!pierson ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jan 84 19:31:49-PST (Tue) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: title request - (nf) >A story about an alien landing and talking to cats for a while, >making no attempt at contacting "monkey people" (or some >similar term) and leaving--taking with her the narrator's cat, >whom he had followed, which is how he found out about this. >Just before leaving, she asks the cats whether she should >destroy the monkeys, who obviously deserve it for having kept >the cats in bondage and such nonsense, and they defend us (we >get to hear her translation of their speech). > >Any ideas as to title, author, where collected? > >Also, I am looking for good cat/sf books/stories. >So far I've got Andre Norton's stuff, and The Wanderer by Fritz >Leiber Sounds like Cynthia Felice's novel *Godsfire*. Even if it isn't the same book, *Godsfire* is an ok cat/sf book. Also, Leiber has done three stories about Gummitch (2 with Psycho), "Space Time for Springers" and two others. Try looking in *The Best of Fritz Leiber* or *The Book of Fritz Leiber*. The third story was in the most recent anniversary issue of F&SF. For a cat-like race of people, try C.J. Cherryh's *The Pride of Chanur*. Robert Heinlein's *Door Into Summer* has a cat who seems to affect more readers than does the protagonist, though it appears only in the beginning and at the end. Have a look at Mervyn Peake's Gormengast trilogy -- the cats aren't major characters or anything, but they add a nice touch, and the books are wonderful. Another semi-feline race is Larry Niven's Kzinti, in many of his Known Space books and stories. Joanna Russ has a new book of stories out called *The Zanzibar Cat*. I haven't read it yet, but I assume the title story is about a cat. Vonnegut's *Cat's Cradle* has nothing to do with cats. Wombat ihnp4!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jan 1984 15:32 EST (Thu) From: Arturo Perez@MIT-EECS Subject: looking for a book Has anyone ever read a novel which involves a private detective agency whose operatives wear invulnerable white suits? Other notable features of this book include an artificially intelligent spaceship and an island called Iskola. Iskola was a rich scientist's idea of the perfect research environment. I read it a long time ago and that's all I can remember. Thanx for any help. Have Fun! ------------------------------ Date: Thu 5 Jan 84 16:55:15-EST From: Joseph A. Frisbie Subject: IJ:ToD There was a trailer for Indiana Jones:Temple of Doom at the last flick I saw. It wasn't very specific. Mostly Harrison Ford duking it out around the globe. Joe ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jan 84 13:53:51 PST From: Peter Reiher Subject: Indiana Jones ... and other upcoming sf movies To my knowledge, no one other than Harrison Ford is repeating a role in the new Indiana Jones movie. In particular, Karen Allen is definitely not; there will be a different female co-star. Spielberg is directing, Lucas producing. I can't swear to it, but I think the screenplay is by the same husband and wife team who wrote "American Graffiti" for Lucas. (the Huycks ?) "Conan: Prince of Thieves" is due out this summer. I think Milius is directing it, again. "Streets of Fire" is due out some time in late winter or spring. It's a futuristic view of Los Angeles, where rock and roll and violent gangs rule the streets. It's being directed by Walter Hill ("48 Hrs", "Southern Comfort", "The Long Riders"), who specializes in action movies, and stars Diane Lane and Michael Pare. Last I heard, "Dune" is set for the summer after next. The next Star Trek movie will probably be out next Christmas. Disney has been working on an animated version of "The Black Cauldron" for years now; it must be nearly ready. "2010: Odyssey II" has been announced for Christmas. It's to be directed by Peter Hyams ("Capricorn I", "Star Chamber"). He's something of a hack, and he's definitely no Kubrick. Peter Reiher ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 6 Jan 1984 07:58:40-PST From: Roger H. Goun Subject: Re: New Indiana Jones flick I bought the "Raiders of the Lost Ark" video cassette and was surprised to find a trailer for "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom" on it before the movie I paid for. The one quick shot of Jones (saying, "Trust me") in the trailer seems to be a clip from "Raiders," unfortunately. -- Roger Goun UUCP: decvax!decwrl!rhea!elmer!goun ARPA: decwrl!rhea!elmer!goun@SU-Shasta USPS: Digital Equipment Corp., HLO2-2/H13; 77 Reed Road; Hudson, MA 01749 AT&T: (617) 568-6311 ------------------------------ Date: 27 Dec 83 19:43:47-PST (Tue) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!ctvax!uokvax!rigney @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Re: Parsecs - (nf) No, a parsec is the distance from which a star observed from opposite sides of Earth's orbit is seen to shift one arc-second of parallax. Not only does it depend on Earth's orbit, but it also depends on the measurement of an an arc-second, which is arbitrarily (from a universal point of view) set at 1/1296000 of a complete circle. Poorly phrased, but you get the idea? You could use a parrad, for a parallax of one radian (A radian is a universal measurement, pi is pi everywhere), except this still depends on the radius of the Earth's orbit. And you can't use any other radius either, because there's no universal radius. I say can't, but obviously you can use such a measurement. I suspect in a future galactic standard there would be many differing local standards of measurement, and just a few universal standards, based on powers of 2, times the fundamental constants. The only difference in universal standards, of course, would be scaling factors and names; that's why they're called universal. Anyone care to post suggestions? Do we care:-? Carl ..!ctvax!uokvax!rigney ------------------------------ Date: 30 Dec 83 19:46:39-PST (Fri) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!ctvax!uokvax!andree @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Orphaned Response - (nf) How to escape our galaxy's blow-up (black hole at center, etc, etc,)? See Larry Niven, "Ringworld", "Ringworld Engineers", "Tales of KNown Space", and whatever the novel was that was the short story "Rammer". While you're at it, take a look at `Sins of the Fathers' and `Lifeboat Earth' by Stanley Schmidt. (There may be another book in the story line. If so, I'd like to hear about it.) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #6 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 10 Jan 84 1551-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #6 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 10 Jan 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 6 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Dickson (2 msgs) & MacLeish & Russell (2 msgs) & Matriarchal Societies & Book Reviews Films - Computer Images and Tool Makers vs Film Makers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri 6 Jan 84 23:04:48-EST From: TYG%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Asimov hospitalized From the latest Time magazine: HOSPITALIZED: Isaac Asimov, 63, sci-fi and nonfiction word factory. Resting comfortable after triple bypass heart surgery. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jan 84 11:42:31-PST (Thu) From: hplabs!zehntel!tektronix!orca!brucec @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: none (story title requested) >>I'm trying to locate a science fiction story (it appeared in a >>collection of short stories) that had the following plot elements: >> 1) Took place in the future >> 2) The hero was sent out from earth in a single man >> "spaceship" on a mission of general discovery >> (The spaceship is in quotes because it was more >> than a spaceship.. it was an extension of himself). >> ... I am certain that the story you describe is by Gordon Dickson, and I believe that the title is "In the Bone." I think it was written in the late '60s. It should be available in one of the paperback collections of Dickson's stories which is currently in print. Bruce Cohen UUCP: ...!teklabs!tekecs!brucec CSNET: tekecs!brucec@tektronix ARPA: tekecs!brucec.tektronix@rand-relay ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jan 1984 15:36 EST (Sun) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" I believe the story can be found in Danger, Human! by Gordon Dickson. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Dec 83 12:37:35-PST (Fri) From: ihnp4!drutx!druxt!mcq @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Prince Ombra Just for the record, I had never heard of Roderick MacLeish either, but one of the critical excerpts on the inside cover tells me that Mr. Hedrick was either entirely correct, or close; MacLeish apparently is a commentator on National Public Radio, which may be operated by PBS for all I know. 'Nuff said? What I really want to do is put in another recommendation for this book. This is one of the better works I've read recently. I think it qualifies as something special. It reminds me of some of the better work of Ursula K. LeGuin in that it is VERY finely crafted and displays the incredible ability to capture the correct mood that I associate with LeGuin. More than anything else, I am impressed by MacLeish's intimacy with his characters, and how natural and "right" he makes them seem. This book presents the conflict between mythological good and evil in a way that makes its appearance in an ordinary setting believable. It manages to use the stuff of old legends to examine the motivations of very real characters for their actions. There are very few fantasy novels that can be said to provide the feeling for the human condition that make them "literature". I find that when this IS done the result is remarkable, and I include "Prince Ombra" in this very special class. For anyone who reads this newsgroup with an eye towards anything outside "hard core" SF (and I don't mean to knock anyone for only wanting to occupy their time with writers like Hogan - please, not one of these fights) READ this one. Bob McQueer ihnp4!druxt!mcq ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jan 84 14:16:18 PST (Thursday) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #3 From: Chin.pa@PARC-MAXC.ARPA "SENTINALS FROM SPACE" was written by Eric Frank Russell. It was about a future society where mutants abounded because of the exposure of radiation to spacemen. I believe the ending revealed that the death of a person caused his transformation into a higher form of life... Also, I have read three of Philip E. High's books---specifically, The Prodigal Sun No Truce With Terra (?) Twin Planets I found them quite good, but cannot seem to find any other books he may have written. Phil Chin Versatec Corp. 2805 Bowers Avenue Santa Clara, CA 95051 ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 6 Jan 1984 11:58:15-PST From: Len Alanurm Subject: SENTINALS FROM SPACE In the most recent issue (of which I just started reading) I saw you wanted to know who wrote the above book. I believe it was Eric Russell (I read it 15 years ago, approx, so my memory is quite fresh). Incidentally, the majority of the action took place on Venus, not Mars. There were actually two mutants per planet, with the ones from Earth visiting Venus where they were "captured". The plot also included the fact that mutants were acceptable in that culture, e.g. a mutant could read minds, or start fires, or levitate, or hypnotize BUT one mutant could only do one thing. A multi-talented mutant was unknown and theoretically impossible. Hence, when the pairs of mutants on the individual planets were discovered, they were interrogated with their eventual demise. The global plot of the story was that the human body was merely the larval form of a more powerful non-corporeal being. These beings from time to time would enter the body of a soon to be dead person to help guide humanity through the rough spots. If you find any faults with the above, let me know. I used to really like that particular story (the male from earth was David and the one from Venus was Charles). p.s. I did not send this out to the list in general because being new I have yet to find out where it actually goes. If you know, let me know. If you want to forward this so the world knows, feel free! -Joe [Moderator's Note: Thanks also to the following people who provided the same information. Clark Hallgren (Hallgran.pa@parc-maxc) Bill Russell (Russell@nyu-cmcl1) Bruce Cohen (hplabs!zehntel!tektronix!orca!brucec@ucb-vax)] ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jan 84 17:36:09-PST (Sat) From: decvax!dartvax!betsy @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Matriarchal societies A fine book in this vein is _When Voiha Wakes_, by Joy Chant (also the author of _Red Moon and Black Mountain_). It concerns a society in which women are the farmers, rulers, and property-owners of society. Men are craftsmen, supposedly because 'it allows them to make up for not being able to bear children'. This is a far subtler book than many role-reversals; it pays due attention to the logical consequences of a society's beliefs. (For instance, since men leave their families at an early age to join craftsmens' guilds, their primary socialization is as guild-members. Women see themselves as members of families. Both guilds and families have secrets to which members of the other sex are not privy. As a result, sex relationships tend to be short and shallow. What can you discuss with a social alien? For long-term companionship, people tend to stick to members of their own sex.) The book is more than a thought-experiment, though; it rotates around the lives of two people, and we see their society through their eyes, not through those of an omniscient observer. It's a romantic novel and a thoughtful one. I recommend it highly. Betsy Hanes Perry decvax!dartvax!betsy P.S. Does ANYONE out there know if/when Joyce Ballou Gregorian plans to publish a sequel to 'Castledown'? 'The Broken Citadel' and 'Castledown' are supposed to be two parts of a trilogy, but it was eight years between their publication dates. It's a long time between books... -- Betsy Perry decvax!dartvax!betsy ------------------------------ From: duntemann.wbst@PARC-MAXC.ARPA Date: 7 Jan 84 18:02:56 EST Subject: Subject: High & Wolfe I remember Phillip E. High for one half of an Ace double which I bought back in 1968 or so. I bought it for the flipside of the book, Destination Saturn, by David Grinnell & Lin Carter (a wild and funny screwball adventure) but the High novel turned out to be a ratlin' good adventure: Invader on My Back. Invaders of Earth have positioned sea-urchin shaped psi transmitters in orbit to prevent the folks on Earth from catching onto the plot. Only borderline telepaths can see the invaders or their hardware, and the invaders have rigged it so that some kind of heterodyne backwash from their telepathy causes normal Earthlings to instantly fear and hate them. Yeah, hokey, but damn, did it move. I don't believe I ever saw anything else by High on the stands. I think I might t have bought it if I had. Gene Wolfe has indeed finished a sequel to the Severian novels. I spoke with him about it last year, when it was in fact titled "Urth of the New Sun." I heard that it may in fact be called "Castle of the Otter" now, for reasons obscure. I do know that it's finished and in production, but it has not yet been published. All I know about it is that it contains a character who is an intelligent spacesuit. I only discovered that (Gene is somewhat closed- mouthed about works in progress--as he should be) because he heard me discussing a story I had just completed starring an intelligent spacesuit. I guess I beat him into print with it ("Borovsky`s Hollow Woman", OMNI, October 1983) but this may, in fact, be the year that Everybody Wrote About Intelligent Spacesuits. We'll see. 73, Jeff Duntemann DUNTEMANN.WBST@PARC-MAXC ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 6 January 1984, 18:32-PST From: Reynolds at RAND-UNIX Subject: computer mangled images Date: 1 Jan 84 13:40:43-PST (Sun) From: decvax!linus!utzoo!utcsrgv!mason @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Holy hologram! Kevin is quite right, the rasters do not imply computer generated, merely computer massaged. ... As an example of the short term future, go to see TRON: the story's a little (a LITTLE?) weak, but the graphics are great, an innovative combination of computer generated with computer mangled images is quite effective. -- Dave Mason, U. Toronto CSRG As far as I can remember, there were no images in TRON which were the result of "computerized image processing". There were some scenes (and elements of other scenes) which were fully synthetic, computer generated imagery (this is what I worked on at triple-I: Solar Sailer, Sark's Carrier, the MCP and his mesa and the Sea of Simulation). And of course there were scenes which were extensively reprocessed by photographic techniques (the "look" of the characters in the Electronic World was all done photographically from the original principal photography which was done in 65mm B&W). There were also composites of both techniques (any scene where you saw both characters and vehicles (eg Tron, Flynn and Yori on the deck of the Solar Sailer)). These composites were done in a somewhat unique way: not on an optical printer, but rather right there on the animation camera during the frame-by-frame rephotography. -Craig W. Reynolds ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 6 January 1984, 19:03-PST From: Reynolds at RAND-UNIX Subject: tool makers vs film makers Date: Tue, 3 Jan 84 1:19:22 EST From: Ron Natalie Subject: Re: E&S Vector Graphics in movies? The E&S Picture Systems (model numbers 1, 2, and 300) are big vector guys. E&S was used for the simulator display in The Wrath of Khan (the Kobimishi Maru or what ever). It was also used to create the opening sequence in TRON. ... These were both done with their VECTOR equipment. Our E&S salesman had these and other things on a Brag video tape that he brought out once. ... -Ron It is true that the E&S staff (I think it was people from their planetarium projector division) did do some instrumentaion graphics for TWOK. However, in general E&S is not in the commercial production business. Probably anything else done for the movies or TV with E&S equipment was done by someone else who IS in that business. Specifically the "Title Sequence" and "Flynn's Ride" from TRON were done by people at Robert Able & Associates, the "Death Star Simulation" seen in the pre-attack briefing scene in RotJ was done on an E&S by the people at Lucasfilm's Computer Development Group. On the other hand, there is a long established tradition in Hollywood of getting a hold of someone else's demo reel and taking credit for the images. -Craig W. Reynolds ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 12-Jan SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #7 *** EOOH *** Date: 12 Jan 84 1142-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #7 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 11 Jan 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 7 Today's Topics: Books - MaCaffrey & MacLeish & Cats in SF, Films - Computer Images & Fave SF movies & Reviews (2 msgs) & Star Wars, Television - Dr. Who, Miscellaneous - Parsecs (2 msgs) & The Speed of Light & A Universal System of Units ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hjjh@ut-ngp.ARPA Date: Tue, 10 Jan 84 05:12:08 CST Subject: McCaffrey ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Resurgence of Dinosaurs ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Writes Judy-Lynn del Rey in BEYOND, the Del Rey Books newsletter-- "Anne McCaffrey flew into town this week.... She was shlepping the manuscript for DINOSAUR PLANET SURVIVORS. At the end of 1984 we will find out at last what happens to our intrepid heroes who, when last seen, were hiding in cold storage from the heavyworlders. So you can stop writing and asking about the sequel to DINOSAUR PLANET... the book is on its way." ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jan 84 9:34:29-PST (Mon) From: decvax!ittvax!wxlvax!dann @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Prince Ombra This is a sort of counterpoint to a favorable review of Prince Ombra. I recently read the book and was disappointed. The age level aimed at seemed to be mid-teens. Most of the concepts, particularly the classic hero versus the force of darkness were not particularly original, nor particularly believable. The plot seemed essentially simplistic, and like most books of this type the final confrontation with the evil Prince of Darkness was about as believable as Dorothy throwing the pail of water on the witch in the Wizard of Oz. We're not talking about an incredibly bad book by any means, there were some nice touches. But any reasonably sophisticated reader of F&SF is going to have seen this one go by too many times before to really enjoy it. Change of subject -- Is anyone else getting tired of all the retread fantasy novels on the market today? There doesn't seem to be a spark of innovation in any ten of them. And they all seem to be number x in the new XXXXX cycle. I'm tired of badly written, imitative fantasy and I'm tired of serials. And there is *no* new hard sf being published to speak of. As a friend of mine is wont to say, 'What's the world *coming* to?' I guess it's time to start reading serious literature. dann ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jan 84 21:34:02 EST (Monday) Subject: Here Kitty Kitty Kitty From: Chris Heiny Some other books involving cats (off the top of my head): "Breed to Come" Andre Norton, one of my favorites when I was 13-16. Cats/rats/dogs evolve intelligence after man flees a polluted Earth. Then people try to come back. "Eye of Cat" Roger Zelazny. A cat-like alien from a zoo helps his captor find a criminal, and then gets to hunt his captor as his fee. "Doorways in the Sand" Roger Zelazny. Aliens disguised as dogs, kangaroos, wombats, rocks, donkeys, plus an incidental cat. "Space Cat", "Space Cat Visits Venus", "Space Cat Meets Mars", "Space Cat and the Kittens" ???. 1950's children's sf (jungle Venus, vanishing civilizatons on Mars, 50's rocketships, etc. GREAT stuff, wish I was 7 again. Will look for more..... Chris ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 6 January 1984, 18:37-PST From: Reynolds at RAND-UNIX Subject: computer mangled images Date: 1 Jan 84 13:40:43-PST (Sun) From: decvax!linus!utzoo!utcsrgv!mason @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Holy hologram! Kevin is quite right, the rasters do not imply computer generated, merely computer massaged. ... As an example of the short term future, go to see TRON: the story's a little (a LITTLE?) weak, but the graphics are great, an innovative combination of computer generated with computer mangled images is quite effective. -- Dave Mason, U. Toronto CSRG As far as I can remember, there were no images in TRON which were the result of "computerized image processing". There were some scenes (and elements of other scenes) which were fully synthetic, computer generated imagery (this is what I worked on at triple-I: Solar Sailer, Sark's Carrier, the MCP and his mesa and the Sea of Simulation). And of course there were scenes which were extensively reprocessed by photographic techniques (the "look" of the characters in the Electronic World was all done photographically from the original principal photography which was done in 65mm B&W). There were also composites of both techniques (any scene where you saw both characters and vehicles (eg Tron, Flynn and Yori on the deck of the Solar Sailer)). These composites were done in a somewhat unique way: not on an optical printer, but rather right there on the animation camera during the frame-by-frame rephotography. -Craig W. Reynolds ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Jan 84 14:30:46 EST From: Gregory Parkinson Subject: Fave SF movies Two of my favorites were missing from the list - BLADE RUNNER - My friends who read the book first liked this much more than those who hadn't. I think the book is one of Phil Dick's best and the movie is a good illustration which succeeds in capturing much of the FEELING of the book. The cinematography managed to mix a scary but reasonable extrapolation of L.A. with hollywood detective movie archetypes which worked very well. Knowing the plot beforehand helped clear up a lot of the ambiguities. SOLARIS - I saw the uncut version in L.A. in 1975 and loved it. My friends saw a cut version a few years later and were bored and confused. I recall being overcome with the feeling of STRANGENESS the film got across in describing the planet's intelligence. Anyone else see the long version and feel the same? This is definitely one of my all time favorites. Greg Parkinson ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jan 84 17:08:46 PST From: Peter Reiher Subject: movie review "Deathstalker" is a new sword and sorcery movie from Roger Corman's current exploitation film company. It looks like it was filmed in Italy, or possibly Spain. It will make the rounds of the film markets one by one, so you may have seen it already, or it may be out in the next few months. "Deathstalker" is pretty bad. Either the director and screenwriter (both out of USC film school) haven't the vaguest idea of how to tell a story, or the film was edited by a chimpanzee. There is no coherence at all to the plot, which concerns a brawny hero with a magic sword of power attempting to get the other two items of power from an evil wizard. The frequent fight scenes are choreographed fairly well, by and large. There are also some moderately funny lines and sight gags. The hero, played by Rick Hill, which may or may not be a pseudonym for an Italian actor, is better than usual. That's about all of the good news, though. The atmosphere is only intermittently effective, and, as mentioned, the plot is badly chopped up. The other actors are serviceable, at best. The effects are cheesy. It should also be mentioned that there are an awful lot of bare bosoms in this film, as is the wont in a Roger Corman production. There is an Amazonian heroine, thrown as a sop to feminists, no doubt; but she, too, bares her breasts, and is disposed of rather casually, like most of the other characters. It's a big step up from something like "Ator", but it's not nearly as good as "The Sword and the Sorcerer". ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jan 84 1228 EST (Monday) From: don.provan@CMU-CS-A Subject: SF movies haven't we gone over movies before? anyway: THX1138 - this is my by far and away favorite, even eclipsing 2001. (but then, 2001 pales after the 15th viewing...) i must admit that i'm a big fan of degenerative societies, but i'm sure i would have been just as impressed with this movie even if i weren't. Collosus, the Forbin Project - don't write this one off because of the terrible novel it is based on. the plot's about the same, but the trash like the wimpy Forbin and the conniving president was discarded. if you've only seen it on TV, you haven't really seen it. (on the other hand, if you didn't like it on TV, you probably won't like it in a theatre.) Dark Star - an excellent film, the only comic SF movie i know of (unless you want to consider "Attack of the Killer Tomatoes" (not quite SF) or "Plan 9 from Outer Space" (not intentionally comic)). ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jan 84 10:46:19-PST (Sun) From: pur-ee!iuvax!apratt @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Question: Powers of Lite Sabres - (nf) But did Anakin/Darth actually want Obi-Wan to give Luke his (old?) flashlight? That's what Ben said. Anakin knew he had a son; who figured what out? Did Ben know that Luke could only destroy his father as a Jedi, or did Anakin know that Luke would find him if he got hold of a Light Saber, or both? Did Obi-Wan screw up *again*? These and other questions.... -- Allan Pratt ihnp4!iuvax!apratt ------------------------------ Date: 9 January 1984 09:23 est From: RTaylor.5581i27TK at RADC-MULTICS Subject: Dr. Who hat question answered ? Sonia - I assume you are referring to Romana (sp?) as played by Lalla Ward, and her straw "boat-hat"...don't know how she keeps it from falling off, but don't ever remember her losing it! Roz ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jan 84 1:53:06-PST (Fri) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!ctvax!uokvax!jab @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Parsecs? Really, now... - (nf) Parsecs? Now wait a minute. I suspect that all this talk about whether or not George Lucas MEANT to use the term "parsec" incorrectly is a crock. He was diving into MYTHOLOGY, not SCIENCE FICTION; I don't suspect that he's losing sleep about this "minor" thing. If you're interested in talking about trivial parts of the SW movies (I have some friends who insist that there are no "non-trivial" parts of the SW movies), you might try to decipher the "baby talk" that the Jawas used in Star Wars, or the fact that in only ONE PLACE in the trilogy is written english used. (Where?) Also, you bet your ass that ILM is using computer graphics a lot. (Wouldn't you be suprised if they didn't?) Jeff Bowles Lisle, IL ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jan 84 20:06:13-PST (Fri) From: decvax!dartvax!johnc @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Speed of Light >> Could we collect more vacuum nearer the sun? I would think so. The sun heats up what particles there are so they are moving faster, and are farther apart. Therefore there is 'more of a vacuum'. --johnc From the Ever-Questioning Mind of johnc ...!decvax!dartvax!johnc :-> ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jan 84 10:47:13-PST (Sun) From: pur-ee!iuvax!apratt @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Re: 'Parsec' as a unit of time - (nf) Familiar terms, perhaps, but I reiterate: no gunrunner is going to say, "I made the Miami-San Salvador run in fifty miles!" ------------------------------ From: Joe Buck Date: Mon, 9 Jan 84 21:20:43 EST Subject: A universal system of units ... should be based on universal physical constants. One possibility is a system of units based on c (speed of light), h (Planck's constant), m (mass of electron), and e (charge of electron). In this system, the unit of length is h/(mc) and the unit of time is h/(mc^2). Of course, all these units are very small, we would need a multiplying factor. These factors should be powers of two, rather than ten; different species will have different numbers of fingers (or whatever), but any species that builds computers will deal in powers of two, as it's simpler to build devices with two states than devices with more. Alternatively, G (the gravitational constant) and/or a0 (Bohr radius, the radius of the electron's orbit in the Bohr model) could replace any of c, h, or m. I'm sure there are other possibilities. The Pioneer 10 picture uses the wavelength emitted by the spin-flip of monatomic hydrogen - about 21 cm - as a unit in explaining the height of human beings. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 12-Jan SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #8 *** EOOH *** Date: 12 Jan 84 1325-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #8 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 12 Jan 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 8 Today's Topics: SPECIAL ISSUE - Upcoming Films for 1984 (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Jan 84 13:17:02 EST From: Saul Subject: Upcoming Films for 1984 The L.A. Times entertainment section (Calendar) for Sunday, January 8th, published a list of all of the films that major studios are willing to admit that they plan to release in 1984. The original list was compiled by Julie Richard. Thanks to the following people whose comments are in square brackets for supplying information to SF-LOVERS: Reiher@UCLA-CS Ssmith@USC-ECL Bakin.ssid@HI-MULTICS January: THE GODS MUST BE CRAZY Comedy about nomadic African tribesman who discover a strange object has fallen from a plane and believe it's a magical gift from the Gods. (Fox Inter. Classics). February: PLEIN SUD ("Heat of Desire") A fantasy about an intellectual who becomes a man of action under the tutelage of a beautiful adventuress. Starring Patrick Dewaere, Clio Goldsmith, and Jeanne Moreau. [A French film, if you haven't already guessed, and not too recent, since Dewaere killed himself early last year - reiher]. (Triumph/Columbia) March/April CHILDREN OF THE CORN Based on the Stephen King short story about a young couple traveling across the United States who stumble onto a religious cult in Nebraska. (New World). ICEMAN The story of a Neanderthal man who is found frozen alive in glacial ice. Timothy Hutton and Lindsay Crouse star. Fred Schepisi ("The Chant of Jimmie Blacksmith") directs. [Probably a good deal more serious than it sounds at first hearing. Schepisi is an Australian with a very good critical reputation, and Hutton is still hot enough to avoid trash. Some stills I've seen of the makeup look very good. - reiher] (Universal) ICE PIRATES Pirates-in-outer-space story with Robert Urich and Mary Crosby. (MGM/UA) LE DERNIER COMBAT Four survivors of a planetary catastrophe band together to make a last stand for the human race. [surprise, surprise: another French film] (Triumph/ Columbia) SPLASH Ron Howard directs a comedy about a man's love affair with a mermaid. John Candy and Daryl Hannah star. [Looks like Disney strikes out again - reiher] (Walt Disney Pictures) May/June FIRESTARTER Adaptation of Stephen King's novel about a little girl (Drew Barrymore) who turns her fear into a weapon. WIth George C. Scott, Martin Sheen, and David Keith. (Universal) NATIONAL LAMPOON'S JOY OF SEX High school students' sexual problems come to the fore in this film directed by Martha Coolidge (Valley Girl). GHOSTBUSTERS Bill Murray, Dan Ackroyd, and Harold Ramis as parapsychologists in New York. GREMLINS Joe Dante ["It's a Good Life" segment of "The Twilight Zone: The Movie" - reiher] directs a Steven Spielberg production about a cute but malevolent creature. With Phoebe Cates [That brilliant actress who distinguished herself by not showing her breasts in "Private School" - reiher] (Warner Bros.) INDIANA JONES AND THE TEMPLE OF DOOM Harrison Ford and Kate Capshaw have cliff hanging adventures in this "prequel" to "Raiders of the Lost Ark". Steven Spielberg directs. [The trailer for this looks good, but not as good as Raiders'. It seems to be set mostly in the far east, and apparently features a kid side kick, which could be a mistake. I'm suspicious of prequels. - reiher] (Paramount) THE LAST STARFIGHTER Story of an 18-year-old with a talent for video games. Robert Preston and Lance Guest star. (Universal). THE PHILADELPHIA EXPERIMENT A top-secret World War II military experiment is brought to life in this time travel adventure. With Michael Pare and Nancy Allen. (New World) [For those not up on movie studios, New World was Roger Corman's old stomping grounds, and specialized in cheap exploitation films, from beach blanket stuff to Poe ripoffs, with stopoffs at motorcycle films and topless nurse and student teacher films, and, of course, the ever popular fifties alien invasion films. Many of them were fairly amusing. - reiher] RED DAWN John Milius [who directed "Conan the Barbarian" and "The Wind and the Lion" - reiher] directs a story of a group of innocents forced into armed resistance against an invasion of the U.S. With Patrick Swayze, C. Thomas Howell and Powers Booth. [Milius would have preferred living in the Middle Ages, when he would have had more chances to kill people in hand-to-hand combat. His films reflect this sensibility, for better or worse. -reiher] (MGM/UA) STAR TREK III: THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK The continuing adventures of the Starship Enterprise and the search for Mr. Spock. With William Shatner, James Doohan, DeForest Kelley, and Dame Judith Anderson. [And Christopher Lloyd, of "Taxi", as the villain. -reiher] Directed by Leonard Nimoy. (Paramount) [Looks like a big summer for Paramount -reiher]. [Can a film be about a search for a director? - ssmith] STREETS OF FIRE Diane Lane and Michael Pare in a rock and roll fantasy about a soldier of fortune. Walter Hill ("48 HRS.") directs. [Coming attractions look really good, provided you don't mind a lot of violence. -reiher] (Universal) July/August ALL OF ME One of the world's richest women, who is dying, arranges to have her soul transformed into the body of a younger, healthier woman. Steve Martin, Lily Tomlin, and Victoria Tennant star. Carl Reiner directs. [A comedy, if you haven't already guessed, which sounds like it owes something to Spielberg's segment of the "Night Gallery" pilot. -reiher] (Universal) CONAN, PRINCE OF THIEVES Sequel to "Conan the Barbarian", again starring Arnold Schwarzeneger. With Wilt Chamberlain and Grace Jones. Richard Fleischer directs the Dino de Laurentiis production. [Fleischer has a reputation as a hack director of limited talents. -reiher] (Universal) THE NEVERENDING STORY A boy's odyssey into a timeless world of fantastic beings. Wolfgang Petersen ("Das Boot") directs. [Based on a current best seller which has already cleaned up in Europe and Japan, this German film has the largest budget in German film history. -reiher]. [My award for worst film title, does it relect how boring the film is? -ssmith] (Warner Bros.) NIGHT OF THE COMET A science fiction comedy about two sisters and the coming of a fabulous comet. (Atlantic) WHERE THE GREEN ANTS DREAM Werner Herzog (Fitzcarraldo) directs this film set in Australia. (Orion Classics). [Okay, probably not a SF film, but knowing Herzog you will have to classify it as a fantasy -ssmith] SHEENA OF THE JUNGLE Tanya Roberts ("Charlie's Angels") in a feminine twist on Tarzan. (Columbia) November/December: BABY A professor [Fred MacMurray?] and his wife discover a baby dinosaur in Africa. [Sounds like Disney's going to take a bath this year. -reiher] (Disney) O.C. AND STIGGS Robert Altman directs a comedy about two teenage boys on summer vacation. [Hmm, I wonder how much like the National Lampoon stories this can be. -bakin] DUNE Based on Frank Herbert's science fiction novel about mile-long monsters that devour manlike insects. Max von Sydow and Sting star. David Lynch directs. [Hey, I'm just copying this stuff, not making it up. As I recollect, Sydow is playing Liet Kynes and Sting is Baron Harkonnen's beloved nephew. Lynch is a brilliant stylist and the stills look great. -reiher]. [LONG AWAITED!! But who came up with this terrible press release? Milelong monsters = sandworms, ok, but manlike insects??? what book did this people read? -ssmith] (Universal) GREYSTOKE: THE LEGEND OF TARZAN, LORD OF THE APES Is about Tarzan's boyhood, his repatriation to British aristocracy, and his return to the jungle. Ralph Richardson, Christopher Lambert, and Ian Holm star. Hugh Hudson ("Chariots of Fire") directs. [This is a real labor of love for Hudson, whose been trying to film it for a very long time. The actor playing Tarzan is French, which makes a lot of sense for those who've read the original book. The trailer looks impressive and faithful. - reiher] (Warner Bros.) LADYHAWKE Richard Donner ("Superman") directs a tale of romance and magic in the Middle Ages. With Rutger Hauer[chief android in "Blade Runner" -reiher], Matthew Broderick [from "War Games" -reiher], and Michelle Pfeiffer. [Also, John Wood, the scientist in "War Games", as an evil bishop. Donner has been trying to down play the sword and sorcery elements, figuring it will be bad for business what with the entries in that genre of the last couple years, but it's obviously fantasy. There's a lengthy and interesting article on this $16 million film in the same issue of The L.A. Times Calendar that has this information. -reiher] (Warner Bros.) OH GOD III George Burns in his first dual role, God and Devil. STARMAN Love story with a science fiction background produced by Michael Douglas. (Columbia) 2010 Sequel to "2001: A Space Odyssey". Peter Hyams directs this return to Jupitor's moons to learn the fate of astronaut David Bowman and HAL the computer. [Hyams ("Capricorn One") is no great shakes as a director. Keir Dullea has signed, and I think they got hold of the actor who dubbed HAL's lines, as well. -reiher] [Stop Dave my mind is going...We'll see what happen without Kubrick directing...Anybody know who Peter Hyams is and what he has directed before?? -ssmith] (MGM/UA) No release date DREAM ONE A ten-year-old boy is magically transported to a strange dream world. With Nipsey Russell and Harvey Keitel. [Talk about your odd couples. -reiher] (Columbia) HEAVEN SENT Herbert Ross ("The Turning Point") directs a story of a youth who time-trips himself backwards until he and his parents are the same age. (Embassy) THE MUPPETS TAKE MANHATTAN SUPERGIRL Superman's cousin, Kara (Helen Slater), clashes with a sorceress. Also starring Peter O'Toole, Faye Dunaway, and Mia Farrow. Jeannot Szwarc ("Somewhere in Time") directs. [Szwarc was the director who sank "Jaws II". Another hack. -reiher] (Warner Bros.) VISIONQUEST A youth searches for adulthood. Matthew Modine and Linda Fiorentinno star. [Might not be sf/fantasy, but the title sure sounds like it. -reiher] (Warner Bros.) [ The chances are good that a few of these films will never be released, or perhaps even made. The list the Times published last year contained at least a dozen films which didn't come out. Some were delayed, and some cancelled. The same might happen with a few of these. It's also my painful duty to point out the possibility that "Santa Claus", from the Salskynd brothers who brought you Supermans I-III, may be out by next Christmas. They have an unpleasant habit of following through on their threats, so we may yet see Dudley Moore as one of Santa's elves. -reiher] ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jan 84 00:50:58 EST From: WASER@RUTGERS.ARPA Subject: Future Movie Information Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom is a prequel to Raiders and occurs (as far as I can remember from Worldcon) about 10 years before. It is for this reason, as well as several others, that there is another (from all reports blonde, buxom, and beautiful) "love" interest in the film instead of Karen Allen. This reason also explains why there are no other repeats (though who knows, maybe we'll get to see Professor Ravenwood and his at-that-time probably teen-age daughter). While film clips were shown at Worldcon, they ARE trying to be secretive (from the people who brought you Blue Harvest) and I remember nothing outstanding or interesting in them. Also, as far as I know, Dune is due out next December (i.e. I believe the date given in the last digest is erroneous). Film clips of this were also shown at Worldcon but were, in contrast to IJatToD's, very impressive despite the fact that they refused to show the sandworms, the guild navigator, or the massive exodus scene (which involved an incredible number of models). -- Mark ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 13-Jan SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #9 *** EOOH *** Date: 13 Jan 84 1309-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #9 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 13 Jan 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 9 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov (2 msgs) & Borges & MacAvoy (2 msgs) & Cats in SF, Films - Star Wars, Miscellaneous - W&W & The Speed of Light (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 9 Jan 84 8:19:17-PST (Mon) From: decvax!duke!mcnc!dvamc!ccw @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Asimov's Future History? "The Robots of Dawn" seems to be a continuation of the tying together that Asimov started in "Foundation's Edge". Chris Woodbury {duke,mcnc}!dvamc!ccw ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jan 84 19:36:25-PST (Sun) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!preece @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Re: Asimov's Future History? - (nf) You're not imagining things. Asimov has said (in his column in his magazine) that in picking up his series he has consciously made them grow towards a single future history. scott preece ihnp4!uiucdcs!uicsl!preece ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jan 84 20:11:47-PST (Mon) From: decvax!duke!mcnc!unc!bts @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Borges's Imaginary Beings & Wolfe's BotNS The following is from Jorge Luis Borges's, "The Book of Imaginary Beings". (Penguin Books, 1974) I recommend this book very highly-- *if* you can find it. Anyway, with respect to Gene Wolfe's BOOK OF THE NEW SUN, Borges has this to say: BALDANDERS Baldanders (whose name we may translate as `Soon- another' or `At-any-moment-something-else') was suggested to the master shoemaker Hans Sachs (1494-1576) of Nuremburg by that passage in the Odyssey in which Menelaus pursues the Egyptian god Proteus, who changes himself into a lion, a serpent, a panther, a huge wild boar, a tree, and flowing water. Some ninety years after Sachs's death, Baldanders makes a new appearance in the last book of the picaresque-fantastic novel by Grimmelshausen, The Adventuresome Simplicissimus (1669). In the midst of a wood, the hero comes upon a stone statue which seems to him an idol from some old Germanic temple. He touches it and the statue tells him he is Baldanders and thereupon takes the forms of a man, of an oak tree, of a sow, of a fat sausage, of a field of clover, of dung, of a flower, of a blossoming branch, of a mulberry bush, of a silk tapestry, of many other things and beings, and then, once more, of a man. He pretends to teach Simplicissimus the art "of conversing with things which by their nature are dumb, such as chairs and benches, pots and pans"; he also makes himself into a secretary and writes these words from the Revelation of St. John: "I am the first and the last", which are the key to the coded document in which he leaves the hero his instructions. Baldanders adds that his emblem (like that of the Turk, and with more right to it than the Turk) is the inconstant moon. Baldanders is a successive monster, a monster in time. The title page of the first edition of Grimmelshausen's novel takes up the joke. It bears an engraving of a creature having a satyr's head, a human torso, the unfolded wings of a bird, and the tail of a fish, and which, with a goat's leg and vulture's claws, tramples on a heap of masks that stand for the succession of shapes he has taken. In his belt he carries a sword and in his hands an open book showing pictures of a crown, a sailing boat, a goblet, a tower, a child, a pair of dice, a fool's cap with bells, and a piece of ordnance. Bruce Smith, UNC-Chapel Hill decvax!duke!unc!bts (USENET) bts.unc@CSnet-Relay (lesser NETworks) ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jan 84 12:14:32 PST (Tue) From: Sonia Schwartzberg Subject: R.A.MacAvoy, TWTBD & DAMIANO Subject: Caro.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA's request for an expanded critique of Well. Thank you for the corrections, I apologize for screwing up both author's name and book title. As for TWTBD's flaws, which you feel are not there (you should get together with my friend, eh?) and I do, I would be glad to elaborate a bit. Firstly let me say that the characterization, as I've said before, is excellent. I had a good feel for most of the characters and wanted to see more of them. Complaints: the author did not check out most of her use of computer jargon. Some of it is just plain silly, some wrong. I felt the plot was a little weak and that more was hinted at mysteriously than was ever delivered. Sure, we were told all at the end, but I didn't feel we got as much as we were promised. Why did Oolong leave the man (name forgotten, sorry) behind when he went off to combat the "badies", with only an enigmatic justification? Did he expect him to call the police? I was also somewhat critical of our dragon's mysterious abilities. They were never well defined, and the author managed to simply pull a few of them out of what seemed to be "the hat" when she needed them, and ignore them at times that I would expect them to be used. The premise was fine, the plot *could* have been fine, had the author kept all the strings she started together, and kept the pace and believability consistent. I felt the book had a great deal of unexplored potential. I was dissapointed in the simplicity of the resolutions and solutions. Strengths of characters were revealed inconsistently, almost as though she'd forgotten just what their strengths were. The ending was unsatisfying -- why hadn't she died? How did her captors fail to notice that she wasn't dead? Was she resurrected? It was loosely implied that she was in a deep trance -- was that what saved her? There were moments of brilliance in the novel, just as there were in Damiano, moments of absolutely delightful humor, but there were definitely (to me) flaws in both. I think that the plot weaknesses are in both, though they differ somewhat. The author does improve somewhat in terms of consistency in Damiano, but still leaves the reader a bit unfulfilled (I don't care if it is the first in a trilogy) -- she hints at mysteries (Rafael: "but he is the father--" Damiano: "--of lies, I know..." I half expected to find out that the Devil and God are one, hmm?). As I think about it more, while my impression of TWTBD is that it hangs together better as a story, I find that Damiano leaves me a bit fuller, that I am more pleased overall with the second book. I really do look forward to seeing more of her work -- IF she improves. I certainly hope she does. It is my opinion that she has a great deal of potential, and that her weaknesses are overcomable. There, a somewhat more in-depth critique. sonia@aids-unix ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 11 Jan 1984 10:23:31-PST From: decwrl!rhea!mrvax!ddb@Shasta Subject: Macavoy, Gene Wolfe (Caro.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA) I liked Tea With the Black Dragon very much, but I thought the writing was only mediocre (compensated for, in my opinion, by the quality of the characters and concepts; plot was also pretty vanilla). All in all, a very satisfactory first novel. Now, Damiano may not have any flaws. I can't think of any. I find this particularly pleasing because of the increase in writing skill from first to second novel (of course, I don't know when either book was actually WRITTEN, just when they were published). (duntemann.wbst@PARC-MAXC.ARPA) Actually, Castle of the Otter is a book containing a collection of essays by Wolfe about the writing of Book of the New Sun, and it's out now (it has been an SFBC selection). The title comes from an interesting sequence -- Locus mistakenly reported that the last volume of Book of the New Sun would be called Castle of the Otter (it's actually Citadel of the Autarch -- I presume Locus got its information verbally in this case). Gene Wolfe liked the title, so he used it. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jan 84 21:52:59 EST From: Dave Subject: Cats in SF There is a short story called "Fuzzy" by Theodore Sturgeon that has a cat in it. It is collected in E PLURIBUS UNICORN. ds ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jan 1984 at 1251-EST From: jim at TYCHO (James B. Houser) Subject: ROTJ Opinion Hi I recently saw ROTJ again. While I think the movie is, in general, OK there are a couple of things that kept it from being as good as the first two. 1. Many of the "creatures" were not very believable. Its not that they were any more weird than, say, the ones in the SW-ANH bar scene. They just struck me as looking like "Toys R Us" rejects. I'm mainly referring to Jabba's retinue but this comment also applies to some of the rebel forces. Does anyone know what the story is here? Did they change creature makers or what. I saw first movie at Worldcon and the contrast is quite noticeable. 2. It was really too cute. I have nothing against upbeat movies but this was a bit too much. Even our hero Han Solo turned into "Mr. Goody Two Shoes". The Ewoks absolutely oozed cuteness. Whatever, I think that ROTJ would have been more enjoyable if it had been somewhat less syrupy. 3. In some spots the movie became fairly slow paced. I think it would benefit greatly by having about 10 minutes carefully edited out. The Tatooine and Endor scenes in particular could be tightened up. Its painful to lose frames from ROTJ but I really think it would help. So that's my opinion for whatever its worth. Jim Houser ------------------------------ Date: 10-Jan-84 18:12:16-EST From: barry@BNL To those who have been getting the w&w installments by ftp: There has been a hiatus in availability while I found a host to store them on where there wouldn't be uncomfortable repercussions. I think I've finally found one. The latest installment is #14. If you haven't seen that, please send me mail (barry@bnl) telling me the last installment you HAVE seen. I'll try to make the intervening ones available. Thank you for your patience, Barry Gold ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jan 84 15:56:44-PST (Tue) From: decvax!duke!ucf-cs!giles @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Speed of light 1: Even more to the point with the radiation question -- There should be no difference in radiation in comparison with 300 years *ago*, 3000 years *ago*, etc. The fact that we are still here tends to strongly support the view that we will still be here tomorrow. (A related question was recently discussed on net.math concerning the success of the MAD doctrine: the implication was that since we have survived 38 years of mutual possesion of nuclear devices, the odds are no greater than 1/38 that we will not survive next year, all things being equal.) 2: The time compression due to gravitation effects can be determined using general relativity; however the effects are negligible for most reasonable problems. One thing which is not as negligible, however, is orbital precession due to (a) the presence of mass, and (b) the rotation of said mass. In fact, it was due to an *anomoly* in the calculated precession of Mercury's orbit that general relativity was developed. It now appears that this anomolous precession can be explained by a better model of the structure of the sun, leaving very serious questions about general relativity. BUT -- special relativiy is still on extremely firm theoretical ground, and in the question of which is `more accurate', I suspect that sr will come out ahead. (alas). 3: If you want to be picky, every single science fiction book which uses time-warps, hyperdrive, et nauseam is related to this discussion. I may be a personality defect to some individuals on the net, but I can not seriously consider any book/story/idea which is not at the least possible in my eyes. As a result, I *loath* lord of the rings, etc. Some science fiction storys/books/... which would be affected by this physics phenomenum are: *The Forever War* by J. Haldeman -- uses black holes for transportation, time compression *The McAndrew Chronicles* by ? -- deals heavily with special and general relativity, ECD and QED. The Known Space series by Larry Niven -- The most visible example is the calculation (in gr) that Shaffer's ship will leave the black hole with a sizable spin in *Neutron Star*. If it is insisted that this discussion refer to science fiction stories, the McAndrew Chronicles alone contain enough material to make this net look like net.physics for a few months (:-}). Bruce Giles UUCP: decvax!ucf-cs!giles cs-net: giles@ucf ARPA: giles.ucf-cs@Rand-Relay Snail: University of Central Florida Dept of Math, POB 26000 Orlando Fl 32816 ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jan 84 19:44:24-PST (Mon) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!riber @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Speed of Light - (nf) can you link this subject to science fiction or are you lost. please use the correct notes group for this discussion. riber ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 14-Jan SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #10 *** EOOH *** Date: 14 Jan 84 2253-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #10 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 14 Jan 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 10 Today's Topics: Books - Clarke & Herbert & Stableford & Cats in SF (3 msgs) & Women in SF (2 msgs), Films - Philadelphia Experiment & Great Movies & Star Wars (2 msgs), Television - What Ever Happened to V?, Miscellaneous - A Universal System of Units & The Density of a Vacuum ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wednesday, 11 Jan 1984 20:15:49-PST From: decwrl!rhea!elmer!goun (Roger H. Goun) From: Subject: Query on THE SENTINEL One of the current Featured Selections of the Science Fiction Book Club is THE SENTINEL, by Arthur C. Clarke. It is billed as "a brilliant new collection of Clarke's highest caliber short fiction." The prospect of a new Clarke volume would normally make me drool, but in this case I smell decomposition in Scandinavia. First of all, there is no price listed for a publisher's edition. Even more to the point, I think I've read almost all these stories before. Is THE SENTINEL just a republication of lots of Clarke's stuff that I've seen collected elsewhere? The stories include the title piece, "The Sentinel," on which 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY was based; "Breaking Strain," about two men in a ship with only enough oxygen for one; "Refugee," concerning a British prince who wants to go into space; and "Guardian Angel," described as "the seed for the novel CHILDHOOD'S END," and the only one I don't clearly remember in a Clarke short story I've read already. Is there anything NEW in THE SENTINEL? Is it worth shelling out $3.98 for? -- Roger Goun UUCP: {decvax, ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!elmer!goun ARPA: decwrl!rhea!elmer!goun@SU-Shasta USPS: Digital Equipment Corp., HLO2-2/H13 77 Reed Road; Hudson, MA 01749 Tel: (617) 568-6311 ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jan 84 16:13:09-PST (Tue) From: ihnp4!ihnss!knudsen @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Frank Herbert Help Request I bought Herbert's The Jesus Incident to take on a vacation for beach reading. I "cracked" it a couple days early and it never made it to the airport. Then I got "Destination: Void," which sets up the conscious Ship and some of the characters for TJI. What I want to know: *Are there other books of his in between these two? Seems there could be any number of "replays" of humanity before TJI. *Any books \after/ TJI, which ends open-endedly ("Surprise me, holy void!") *Do any of his other novels deal with similar topics (artificial consciousness, God, etc.?) *Since I liked these, should I like "Dune" and its sequels? mike k ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jan 84 19:36:38-PST (Sun) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!preece @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Seeking recommendations on SF Author - (nf) I'm interested primarily in novels, particularly (though not exclusively) those which are built around some established "other" world or universe a la Niven's Known Space. ---------- Brian Stableford has written a couple of novel series, in which the characters remain constant and references to internal history continue through the series. I liked them. scott preece ihnp4!uiucdcs!uicsl!preece ------------------------------ Date: 12 January 1984 14:51 cst From: Cargo.PD at HI-MULTICS Subject: Cat science fiction story There was a short story titled "Aesculapius Has Paws" which appeared in one of the early Clarion collections. Output of one of the Clarion writers' workshops. The story concerns a cat-like alien who used its psychic abilities to aid a mentally distraught woman who lived on a houseboat (much like the ones in Seattle where some of the workshops were held). ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 12 Jan 1984 13:13:47-PST From: decwrl!rhea!able!duggan@Shasta Subject: MORE CATS IN SF An addition to the list of Cats in SF: "DOOR INTO SUMMER" -- One of Rob't Heinlein's middle books, about a man who sleeps his way into the 21st century (twice) and his constant sidekick, Pete the cat. ("Pete and I had a very good relationship. He was in charge of eating and sleeping, and I was in charge of all else -- including the weather. For a while we lived in a house in Connecticut. In the winter Pete would go from door to window, looking out all of them, until hydraulic pressure forced him out. ... He was always looking for the door into summer.") ------------------------------ From: DUNTEMANN.WBST@PARC-MAXC.ARPA Date: 13 Jan 84 8:02:58 EST Subject: Space Cat The author of Space Cat and its sequels was an ex-Welshman named Ruthven (rhymes with "striven") Todd. I read them all fifty times when I was seven, and was shocked to find the same copies in the library when I went back at 23. Read 'em again, too. They still had their humor and magic, which I couldn't truthfully say for the Matthew Looney and Georgie the Ghost books and other relics of my first reading years which I have found in grubby used bookstores in recent years. The Yrgombumia (or something close to that) ranks right up there with the Puppeteers as one of my favorite aliens. --Jeff Duntemann duntemann.wbst@PARC-MAXC ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jan 84 21:51:31 EST From: Dave Subject: Women in SF Stories You probably have this on your list but I haven't seen anyone mention it yet. TITAN, WIZARD, (and soon DEMON) all have a female in the title role. (That's not including TITAN herself.) ds ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jan 1984 1302-EST From: Rita M. Tillson Subject: Matriarchies One of the finest books I have read involving a matriarchy is actually about the decline and fall of a matriarchy - THE MISTS OF AVALON by Marion Zimmer Bradley. It is Arthurian legend, told completely from the viewpoint of the female characters, Vivianne, Morgaine, Morgause, and Gwenefheur. Its focus is on the conflict between the ancient Druidic society, a matriarchy, and the patriarchal Christian society. It is a "must read" for anyone interested in matriarchy, Arthurian legend, or Marion Zimmer Bradley. In my opinion, this is Bradley's best work to date. It is a well-researched work; the Druidic ritual is very close to actual Wiccan ritual, although MZB freely admits to some modification of the Wiccan versions. It is a very long book (about 800 pages, if my memory serves me correctly), and very complex. The interpersonal relationships that develop as the years (and pages) pass are superbly detailed. The characters are real and believable, and the plot is well developed. The book is not without flaws. The wonderful character development is occasionally at the expense of action and pace, and the concluding chapter should have been left out entirely. I found that these were flaws I easily overlooked. The prose often approached poetry, and the three page introductory chapter by Morgaine was almost worth the price of the hardcover edition by itself. THE MISTS OF AVALON is an innovative and imaginative approach to a legend whose retellings often seem like last night's leftovers - stale and tiresome. I recommend it highly. There is a short story with a matriarchal theme that I enjoyed very much. Unfortunately, I read it years ago and cannot remember the title. I believe it was by Johanna Russ, and was included in the DANGEROUS VISIONS series. It is about a group of colonists whose male population has been wiped out by a sex-linked disease. The remaining colonists succeed in cloning new offspring. Having only X chromosomes to clone from, they have only female children. The story takes place several generations later, when the colonists are "rescued" by a group of male explorers. Does anyone remember the title of this story? /phae ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 12 Jan 1984 14:52-PST Subject: philadelphia experiment Reply-to: kevinw at SU-DSN From: kevinw at SU-DSN@ISL at Sumex-Aim it was a book published ~5 years ago as i recall. not TOO bad, but... -- Kevin kevinw@su-dsn ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jan 84 20:34:48 EST From: Ron Natalie Subject: Great Movies Great...Dark Star and Attack of the Killer Tomatoes are two of my favorite comedies of any type. If you want to add another intentional SF comedy, how about "AIRPLANE 2" (pretty bad). Add to your list of bad movies "The Cars That Ate People" Then there's always the classic "Duck Rogers in the Twenty Third and a Half Century." Not to be missed. "I just hate being disintegrated" said the martian as he remerged from the re-integrater. -Ron ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jan 84 11:16 PST From: Morrill.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA Subject: Question: Powers of Lite Sabres "But did Anakin/Darth actually want Obi-Wan to give Luke his (old?) flashlight? . . . Did Obi-Wan screw up *again*? These and other questions.... -- Allan Pratt" It is my theory that Obi-Wan and Anakin had long ago developed a long term plan to destroy the Emperor. This plan involved Anakin voluntarily going over to the dark side of the force to become the Emperor's right hand man in hopes that a generation later young Skywalker would come to the rescue of his father and destroy the Big E. This might explain why Obi-Wan let himself be destroyed by Darth, since Anakin gave his life to the cause Obi-Wan gave his. Toward the end of RotJ, while Darth and Luke were engaged in sabre to sabre combat, Darth says, "Obi-Wan has taught you well." We all assume he was talking to Luke, but he could have been talking to himself as he stuggled within, trying to grasp hold of his original commitment. After all, Obi-Wan didn't teach Luke, Yoda did. Will we ever find out the rest of the story? Possibly not, but its still fun to theorize just to keep the Star Wars magic alive. Toby p.s. the biggest money maker of 83 was, of course, Return of the Jedi with $260 million. the next biggest was Flash Dance with $85 million. quite a staggering difference. ------------------------------ Date: Thu 12 Jan 84 21:36:29-CST From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA Subject: Star Wars ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ STAR WARS Revisited^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Jawa baby-talk? Well, as a linguist I couldn't help having certain elements in the alien languages jump out at me. One was the mis- (or extremely loose) translation given for Greedo's. The word "Jabba", an obvious foreign lexical item in his speech where it occurred once, appeared \twice/ in the subtitles. It was the only analysable element. I fared better with Jawaese, however, in being able to recognize a whole sentence, "Ut-dee-dee!", a 2nd person imperative with semantic component of movement. Roughly, "Get moving!" It can be heard 3 times, usually addresses to R2, as in the scene at the Lars moisture farm when the droids are told to get out of the hold of the Sandcrawler. But... Good grief! Even a year ago I could still have told Jeff Bowles where the English writing was, without a moment's hesitation. (On the tractor beam mechanism Obi-Wan turned off?) But, as of May 25th, 1983, \I/ got so badly turned off that I'm even giving up the D.VADER personal license plates I've had since '78! (Am contemplating getting SF-LOVR for '85 when NASFiC is here, to celebrate meeting people who have contributed so much pleasure via my VDT. Y'all come!) ------------------------------ Date: 13-Jan-84 01:10 PST From: testing Subject: Query: Status of "V"? Anyone know whatever happened to the NBC plans to air the 4 two-hour sequels to "V"? Thanks, --BI<< ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 12 January 1984, 15:50-PST From: Reynolds at RAND-UNIX Subject: A universal system of units There have been some messages lately about the possibility for non-arbitrary units of measure. For time and distance this is a hard problem, but I was suprised when some one mentioned that you have the same difficulty with angle measures. (This came up during discussion of parsecs -> seconds of arc -> degrees -> radians -> ...) Well 360 is a pretty random number, but the idea of "a number a little bigger than 6 and a quarter" is ridiculous! The obvious value is 1, the name of this unit is "revolutions", one degree = 1/360 of a revolution. That unit is both completely non-arbitrary (no funny constants) and universal (makes sense no matter how many fingers (or whatever) you have). This approach is very useful in computational geometry, and is used by several computer graphics / computer geometry systems (including my favorite: ASAS). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jan 84 10:22:39 EST From: Ron Natalie Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #4 The density of the vacuum increases close to the sun? How can the the absence of anything become more dense? -Ron ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 16-Jan SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #11 *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Jan 84 0120-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #11 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 15 Jan 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 11 Today's Topics: Art - Fantasy Artwork, Books - Brunner (2 msgs) & Dickson & Heinlein, Films - Iceman & Favorite Movies & Upcoming Films, Television - Dr. Who, Miscellaneous - The Speed of Light & Parsecs ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Jan 84 9:55:05-PST (Thu) From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd70!cae780!chuqui @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Fantasy Artwork At baycon I picked up two pieces of art from fairly well known artists (at least to those at the con). Ken Macklin is well known for his humourous characters (especially trolls) and I am looking forward to adding to my collection of him soon (he lives in the Santa Rosa area, I believe). I also picked up a repro of a Ray McGinnis oil of a White pegasus and a black dragon fighting in front of a very evil looking castle. He is from the Burlingame area, and I believe he was showing a centaur piece at Baycon. I have addresses for both if people want to contact them. They both do commission work and have some reproductions available for some of their work. -- Diogenes looked in and laughed-- >From the dungeons of the warlock Chuqui the Plaid Note the new address: {fortune,menlo70}!nsc!chuqui ~And as I lived my role I swore I'd sell my soul for one love who would stand by me and give me back the gift of laughter~ - Winslow Leech ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jan 84 8:52:33-PST (Fri) From: ihnp4!ihuxn!ttb @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Request for book review Has anyone read "The Crucible of Time" by John Brunner? It is one of the latest selections by the SF Book Club and sounds interesting, but $6.89 is more than I want to pay for a pig-in-a-poke (I'm cheap). Thanks in advance for any info or reviews. Mail direct to me or post to the net as you think appropriate. Tom Butler ..!ihnp4!ihuxn!ttb (312) 979-7999 ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jan 84 10:17:47-PST (Fri) From: ihnp4!drutx!druxt!mcq @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Request for book review I'd like the information also, and I would like to expand the request a little bit. Brunner is a writer who has put out some work I love and some I hate. His ecological/future shock books such as "Shockwave Rider", "The Sheep Look Up", and "Stand on Zanzibar" were excellent from my point of view. "Players at the Game of People" and "The Dramaturges of Yan" I disliked. I would like to see some reviews of Brunner in total, not just of "Crucible of Time". I hope the original author doesn't mind me horning in on the request. Bob McQueer ihnp4!druxt!mcq ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jan 84 6:26:02-PST (Thu) From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!hogpd!kenchan @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Query on Dickson's Childe Cycle Does anyone know the status of Gordon R. Dickson's Childe Cycle? Ken Chan AT&T-IS ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jan 84 1:05:12-PST (Fri) From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!rpw3 @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: another book - exploring the idea of - (nf) [** Warning: **spoiler** on second page **] The all-time best trickiest punchiest time-travel paradox meet-yourself tale has to be Robert Heinlein's "All You Zombies..." (which I think is one of the stories tucked away in the back of the short novel "The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag"). Rob Warnock UUCP: {sri-unix,amd70,hpda,harpo,ihnp4,allegra}!fortune!rpw3 DDD: (415)595-8444 USPS: Fortune Systems Corp, 101 Twin Dolphins Drive, Redwood City, CA 94065 [*************spoiler*********************] Actually, I started to give the whole thing away at first, when I wrote: The all-time best trickiest punchiest time-travel paradox meet-yourself screw-yourself sex-change tale... Now that I've blown it, I might as well give you the last line in the story: [**** next line is a REAL spoiler ***] "I know where I come from, but what about all you zombies..." (arrgggh!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jan 84 12:24:12 PST From: Scott Turner Subject: ICEMAN (cometh...) SEMI-SPOILER I saw a test showing of ICEMAN some months ago. At that time I sent in a short review, but it apparently got lost in the change of moderators. I wasn't too impressed with the movie and neither was the rest of the studio audience (as they say). An artic research group finds an outcropping of very old ice and a frozen caveman inside. They cut him out and return him to the research base, where they thaw him and (surprise!) return him to life. [The psuedo-scientific explanation: he was quick-frozen by a natural disaster and didn't suffer cell rupture because he was soaked in DMSO. I have no idea how plausible an idea this is.] Timothy Hutton plays an anthropologist (who is for some reason stationed in the artic, studying Eskimos). The female lead (I forget her name) is a biologist. We also have the nasty station director, who is most interested in discovering the secret of the successful quick-freeze for the profit of the oil company who sponsors the station. The film then goes on into the usual morass of conflicts-of-interest between the various parties. The most interesting facet of the movie for me was the caveman's culture as pieced together by Hutton. His methods of research seemed a little hokey, but that is acceptable. The caveman naturally thinks that he is in some kind of supernatural setting, which leads to various complications. Hutton ends the movie by making the ``right'' choice: ie., he lets his humanistic elements overcome his scientific elements regarding the fate of the caveman (intentionally vague, so as not to spoil the film). A $1.50 film, I'd say. I'd certainly never want to see it again. == Scott Turner ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jan 84 7:34:36-PST (Thu) From: ihnp4!ihuxs!okie @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: SF movies If we're throwing about favorite (as opposed to "best", a tag I find hard to use as it's all so subjective anyway) SF movies, let me throw in a few of mine, with notes... "The Andromeda Strain" A nice, tense little movie, one I try to catch often (and it usually pops up on Saturday afternoon/evening movies a lot). It's more intellectual than visceral, so it's a nice change of pace. "The Day the Earth Stood Still" I like it because after all these years, it *still* stands up to most of the SF movies made recently. Believable and enjoyable. "Forbidden Planet" Yes, yes, I know, it's *everyone's* classic. I just think it's the best representative of that era of SF film, certainly the most fun (especially if you watch for Anne in the buff [yes, I know it's a skin suit...]). "The Other Side of the Sun" I don't know *why* I like this one, I just do. I haven't seen it that much, but it's a nice piece of work. I like the (albeit somewhat hokey) premise, and the model work ain't bad, either. "2001" It's big, it's visual, it's mysterious -- 'nuff said. That's enough for now. Keep those choices comin' in, folks! BKCobb AT&T BELL LABS Naperville, IL ihnp4!ihuxs!okie ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jan 84 6:48:39-PST (Thu) From: decvax!decwrl!root @ Ucb-Vax Subject: re: sf & fantasy films for the forthcoming year A few comments about Peter Reiher's forthcoming-movie list: I've been looking forward to Hugh Hudson's GREYSTOKE, too. Unfortunately, advance previews that were done this past fall (the film was originally intended for a Christmas release) indicated that the film was a bomb, and Warner Bros. pulled it from its intended release schedule to try and fix it up. I disagree with your comment about Jeannot (SUPERGIRL) Szwarc being a "hack", just because he directed JAWS II, which is certainly not nearly as good as its predecessor, but in my opinion doesn't deserve the denigration it receives. Szwarc directed a number of the better NIGHT GALLERY episodes (and a few TWILIGHT ZONES as well, though I'm not positive of this), and at least *I* liked SOMEWHERE IN TIME --- as did author Richard Matheson --- even moreso than the novel it was based on. Speaking of SUPERGIRL, it's been a year since Helen Slater was announced for the title role, and I have yet to see a photograph of her. I'm curious to know what she looks like. I saw a presentation of DUNE at the World Fantasy Convention this past Halloween. Lynch is a brilliant filmmaker, which bodes well for the film, but judging from what I saw, I'm still not *totally* convinced. The set designs were magnificent (no special effects were completed at that time, though), and so the film looks like it will look nice, but part of my problem was that almost none of the actors, in my opinion, looked like the characters. Von Sydow does indeed play Liet-Kynes and Sting plays Feyd Rautha Harkonnen. The only other cast member that I can recall offhand is Jurgen Prochnow (DAS BOOT; THE KEEP) as Duke Leto. At least a couple of sources indicated that the character of Rene Belloc will be appearing in INDIANA JONES AND THE TEMPLE OF DOOM. The setting of the film is, I believe, Malaysia. ---jayembee Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard decvax!decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jan 84 12:43:12-PST (Thu) From: harpo!eagle!mh3bs!mhtsa!exodus!gamma!ulysses!princeton!eosp1!wha From: rton@Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Dr. Who song and Scarf There has existed for at least two years a "filksong" (fan written and performed) featuring Doctor Who and using the tune of "My Favorite Things" from "The Sound of Music". The only line that I remember goes as follows: "grubby white bag full of bright colored candy". Does anyone out there have a complete version that they could post? I think the readers of this newsgroup would enjoy it. Francis J. Wharton Exxon Office Systems Princeton, N.J. 08540 ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jan 84 20:30:38-PST (Sun) From: decvax!microsoft!uw-beaver!tektronix!reed!cdi!sequent!richard @ From: Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Speed of Light Uh...sorry. Vacuums are harder farther away from the sun. The best place to go for absolutely NO pollution would be outside of the galaxy - preferably outside of our universe. The sun is spewing out material constantly - in general, vacuums are worse close to gravitational bodies. See net.astro or .physics for details. A decent book that incorporated this fact is *TAU ZERO* by (i think) Poul Anderson. His science in this one is pretty hard, although the ending is a little far-fetched. ...!sequent!richard the rider in black ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jan 84 19:17:51-PST (Tue) From: ihnp4!cbosgd!osu-dbs!julian @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: 'Parsec' as a unit of time - (nf) A parsec is defined in terms of an AU, so it's about as nonabsolute as an AU is. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 16-Jan SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #12 *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Jan 84 0213-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #12 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 16 Jan 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 12 Today's Topics: Books - Clarke & Laumer & Sheffield & Cordwainer Smith (2 msgs) & Tolkein & Recommendations on SF Authors (2 msgs), Films - Star Wars (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Speed of Light (2 msgs) & Vacuums ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 15 Jan 84 00:29:02 CST From: Mike Caplinger Subject: Re: Query on THE SENTINEL "Breaking Strain" is in EXPEDITION TO EARTH, "Refugee" is in THE OTHER SIDE OF THE SKY, and "The Sentinel" is in many places, such as THE LOST WORLDS OF 2001. I've read "Guardian Angel" in some anthology of works by various authors on which novels were based, and also an early Clarke anthology published in England. So far as I could tell by surreptitious bookstore browsing, the only thing new in the book is a two-or-three page movie outline for a movie based on "Songs of Distant Earth", with an appalling mishmash sprinkling of a lot of other Clarke short-story and novella work ("The Shining Ones", "A Meeting with Medusa"). If there's anything else in THE SENTINEL, I'd like to hear about it. Bad show, Arthur! - Mike Caplinger mike@rice ps. Of course, the movie COULD be better than nearly every other SF work to date, which almost guarantees it will never be made... relativistic spaceships and all! ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jan 84 8:27:54-PST (Wed) From: decvax!genrad!security!linus!utzoo!dciem!psddevl!milan @ Ucb-Vax Subject: another book - exploring the idea of time Keith Laumer wrote Dinosaur Beach a long time ago. It looks at the aspect of time travel in a slightly different way. As in Asimov's "The End of Eternity", the protagonist actually sees himself in a battle where he could (theoretically) fight against himself. Neat. Have a look at it. milan (...!utzoo!psddevl!milan) ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jan 84 9:48:44-PST (Wed) From: decvax!genrad!security!linus!utzoo!kcarroll @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Speed of light The McAndrew Chronicles is a collection of stories by Charles Sheffield (three cheers!), which have appeared in various SF magazines over the last few years. A personal note: there are several scientists presently practicing science-fiction writing. Charles Sheffield has mastered it; he need not practice any more (although I sure hope that he does!). -Kieran A. Carroll ...decvax!utzoo!kcarroll ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jan 84 11:23:50-PST (Thu) From: harpo!eagle!allegra!alice!rabbit!jj @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Seeking recommendations on SF Author - (nf) I've got to second the recommendation for Cordwainer Smith. I'll even vote for his short stories. While the premise of ""Scanners Live in Vain" was a bit stretched, the story was fantastic! Cranched Indeed! ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jan 84 9:31:50-PST (Thu) From: ihnp4!ihuxq!amigo2 @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Seeking recommendations on SF Author - (nf) A resounding YES on Cordwainer Smith. Other great stories by him include THE BALLAD OF LOST C'MELL; THE LADY WHO SAILED THE SOUL; THE CRIME AND GLORY OF COMMANDER SUZDAL; GOLDEN THE SHIP WAS, OH, OH, OH (actually, not such a great story, but a marvelous title); ALPHA-RALPHA BOULEVARD; MOTHER HITTON'S LITTUL KITTONS; THE MAN WHO CAME BACK FROM NOTHING AT ALL; and my personal favorite of his, THE DEAD LADY OF CLOWN TOWN, a retelling of the Joan of Arc story, with two themes: the power of love and what is a person. I particularly like his use of language and his use of Chinese poetic forms as structures for his stories. A few of his stories, such as NO, NO, NOT ROGOV; THE BURNING OF THE BRAIN; AND SCANNERS LIVE IN VAIN I don't really care for, but they are still better than many stories of other authors. NORSTRILIA is a very good novel, but it is an abridgement of THE BOY WHO BOUGHT OLD EARTH (sometimes called THE PLANET BUYER) and THE UNDERPEOPLE. If you can get the original two volumes (alas, out of print for many years), you may prefer them--I know I do. BTW, many of these stories have to do with cats. John Hobson AT&T Bell Labs Naperville, IL (312) 979-7293 ihnp4!ihuxq!amigo2 ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jan 84 23:44:00-PST (Fri) From: ihnp4!mit-eddie!gds @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: source of quotation The exact quote goes: "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." It occurs at Gildor's conversation with Frodo in Woodhall. The quote is echoed by Merry, when Pippin was pondering the palantir. A elbereth gilthionel, folks! -- --greg ...decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!gds (uucp) Gds@XX (arpa) ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jan 84 14:34:16-PST (Wed) From: ihnp4!houxm!hou2b!sims @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Recommendations on SF Authors - Results About 2 weeks ago I posted a request for recommendations for SF authors, especially those whose writings are based around some "other" world/universe. Well, friends and neighbors, the results are in. I'd like to thank the hundreds of netters (well, at least 16) who took the time to send responses - the suggestions are much appreciated!! Since there was some interest voiced in the responses, I have summarized the recommendations below. Unfortunately, a local disk became seriously ill last week, and I lost a few authors in the crash - my apologies to the respondents whose ideas are not included. The listing below is alphabetical, with any name of a series and/or any recommended titles following. By the way, I'm taking all names/titles directly from my mail, so kindly refrain from searing my CRT with complaints of spelling, etc. **********COMPILATION OF SFNET AUTHOR RECOMMENDATIONS********** Poul Anderson - Set of books about the 'Polysotechnic (sp?) (or Technic) League'; also "Operation Chaos" David Brin - "Sundiver" and "Star Tide Rising" C. J. Cherryh - Faded Sun trilogy ("Kutath," "Shon'Jir," and "Kesrith") also "Pride of Chanur" Jack Chalker - 'Well World' series, especially the first book, "Midnight at the Well of Souls" Gordon R. Dickson - Dorsai series (actually part of Childe Cycle series, I believe) Robert (?) Forward - "Dragon's Egg" Joe Haldeman - "Mindbridge" and "The Forever War" Zenna Henderson - Series about 'The People', starting with "No Different Flesh" or "The Anything Box" James Hogan - numerous works, highly recommended Annes McCaffrey - "Dragonflight," "Dragonquest," and other books about the Dragonriders of Pern (I've just finished "Dragonflight" - enjoyed it much) Alexei Panshin - "Star Well"/"The Thurb Revolution"/"Masque World" (series) and "Rite of Passage" H. Beam Piper - mixed reviews (one good, one fair) Spider Robinson - "Stardance," "Telempath," and "Mind Killer" Clifford Simak E. E. 'Doc' Smith - Lensman series - old-fashioned, but good A. E. Van Vogt - "The Weapon Shops of Isher"/"The Weapon Makers" and "The World of Null-A"/"The Pawns (Players) of Null-A", plus others - "Mission to the Stars" specifically NOT recommended John Varley - especially "Titan," "Wizard," and "The Ophiuchi Hotline" Roger Zelazny - "Lord of Light" and others Closing note: if anyone out there has any further recommendations, I'd love to hear 'em. And if one of the above is on your ten most hated list, remember - I'm not recommending them from experience, 'cause for the most part I haven't read them yet!! HAPPY READING TO ALL!!!! Jim ..!houxm!hou2b!sims ------------------------------ Date: 15 January 1984 02:04 EST From: Don M. Matheson Subject: Request for SF recommendations Who would you folks recommend to someone who's read all the books by Niven, Hogan, Brin, Forward and Sheffield (among many others), and is dying for any one of them to write something new? I guess these tend more toward "Hard-Science" (particularly Forward & Sheffield), but whatever category they fit in, I would like to get some suggestions for other writers of this general flavor... Also, has anyone heard anything about the Berserker-Times- Seven collaboration that was excerpted in OMNI over 6 months ago? I don't know what author to ask for, since it is apparently by Niven, Saberhagen, and five others. Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated. Cheers, DMM@MIT-ML ------------------------------ Date: Sun 15 Jan 84 02:12:48-CST From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA Subject: SW apostasy ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ From a STAR WARS Defector ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ W-h-y was such a SW devotee (who stopped counting after seeing "A New Hope" 41 times, and who laboriously transcribed illicit recordings of the sound tracks of ANH and TESB so as not to have to wait for publication of the scripts) so utterly turned off by JEDI? Because it was so much just a re-hash of stuff out of the first two that I've \still/ not been able to stomach seeing it again in order to add --ad nauseum-- to the following message to SF-LOVERS which the computer record says I started on May 28th. Isn't This Where We Came In? or When Does VI = IV + V? The reprise-with-a-twist of "I love you" "I know" I could take, but not the constant deja-vu of-- Rebel fighters attacking Death Star II, including Recycled dialog Fighter ships' intricate manuevering down narrow passage Explosion of Death Star Secret tech. info on Death Star gained at cost of spies' lives Imperial Walker downed by roping legs Infiltration of enemy area thru using Chewie as "prisoner" Luke and Vader's dueling with circular window in background and stairway at the fore R2-D2 getting blitzed while using manipulator on door Alien uglies' R&R Princess Leia, perpetual prisoner/victim R2-D2 getting zapped, crying "Maaamaaa", and tumbling over A fall down a vast mechanical circular cavern Luke & Leia rope-swinging escape It was as if Lucas had died right after TESB, without leaving usable material for the concluding episode, which was then put together by a committee, drawing on ANYthing they could from the first two! ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jan 84 21:47:28-PST (Fri) From: menlo70!nsc!chongo @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Next SW movie? i know that Lucas wanted about 3 years off, but is there a definite date which the next film will be started, finished, if at all? what about the title and subject matter? will the first 3 lead into the beginning of Star Wars directly, or will they form a complete set? chongo /\**/\ ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jan 84 5:15:15-PST (Wed) From: decvax!dartvax!kenv @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Speed of Light-Relativistic Querry With all this discussion about the speed of light, I would like to throw in my own question: Does time slow down as you approach the speed of light, and go backwards if you should invent an FTL drive and go for a quick trip to Proxima Centauri? I would appreciate an answer to this. Ken Varnum (...!decvax!dartvax!kenv) ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jan 84 8:23:38-PST (Wed) From: pur-ee!CS-Mordred!Pucc-H.ab3 @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Re: Speed of Light I would think so. The sun heats up what particles there are so they are moving faster, and are farther apart. Therefore there is 'more of a vacuum'. --dartvax!johnc Sorry, but incorrect for a number of reasons: 1. The sun emits particles; assuming that this emission is roughly isotropic means that the density of emitted particles is roughly inversely proportional to radial distance from the sun to at least the second power. 2. Directly addressing your point -- the "harder vacuum" is one with fewer particles per volume; not one with "faster particles per volume" or "farther apart particles per volume". I.e. the particle density will stay constant for any macroscopic volume since any {quickly} exiting particle will probably be replaced by a {quickly} entering particle. "Go ahead...make my day." Darth Wombat {allegra,decvax,ihnp4,harpo,seismo,teklabs,ucbvax}!pur-ee!rsk ------------------------------ Date: 14 January 1984 23:22-PST (Saturday) Subject: Vacuum From: Tony Li Hi, Vacuum is measured in torr. 1 torr = 1.316E-3 atmospheres. Density is always in units of mass/volume. Vacuum does not have mass, and hence, cannot have a density. Further, the sun radiates a solar 'wind' which is composed of large numbers of particles. A moments thought will indicate the gradient established by the density of these particles as they are ejected. Hence, not only was the earlier statement poorly worded, but it was also blatantly incorrect. Cheers, Tony ;-) p.s. Nuf said. ------------------------------ Date: Sun 15 Jan 84 03:51-EST From: Joseph D. Turner Subject: Density of a vacuum Of course it would increase -- you're getting closer to a big source of tons of little particles (That isn't what I really mean, I just can't find the right words at the moment). In any event, space isn't "the absence of anything" -- there are zillions of particles out there... they're just very, very, v e r y, *v e r y* far apart... Joe ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 16-Jan SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #13 *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Jan 84 1335-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #13 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 16 Jan 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 13 Today's Topics: Books - Anderson & Brooks & Herbert & Cats in SF & Women in SF & SF Recommendations & Wombats in SF, Films - Forry Ackerman in THRILLER & Favorite SF Movies (3 msgs), Miscellaneous - Vacuums (2 msgs) & Parsecs & Time Dilation ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 Jan 84 20:00:18-PST (Tue) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!ctvax!uokvax!andree @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Seeking recommendations on SF Author - (nf) One of the universes I particularly like wandering around in is Anderson's. In it we see a young, expanding, government run Terran society (The Ythri (sp?)), changing to an older, more established (but STILL expanding) Terran empire run by large corporations (The Nicki Van Rijn stories), and then into an old, rotting empire (Flandry). There are other stories in each era, and a little filler. All good stuff, some of it even excellent. Subject: Re : Women in SF The Russ story about a colony where all the males died is "When It Changed" in "Again, Dangerous Visions." ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jan 84 09:00:24 PST (Monday) From: Caro.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA Subject: Re: Seeking recommendations on SF Author I'm interested primarily in novels, particularly (though not exclusively) those which are built around some established "other" world or universe a la Niven's Known Space. ---------- /* I didn't see the original message, so if I include any redundancies, my apologies */ Try H. Beam Piper's Federation/Empire series. This series is a set of short stories and novels all in the same universe (which includes the Fuzzy novels). The short stories were recently re-released (by Ace I think) under two anthologies not surprisingly called "Federation" and "Empire". "Uller Uprising" and "Space Vikings" also belong in this universe. There is also, of course, Poul Anderson's Polesotechnic League stories, starting with "Trouble Twisters". Oh, and I think Piers Anthony had a series of sf novels, "Cluster" I think it was called. I'm not too sure about this one, since I've only read one trilogy out of that series (the Tarot trilogy). And you have probably already heard of Heinlein's seminal Future History ... it goes on and on ... Perry ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jan 84 14:35:21-PST (Sat) From: decvax!duke!mcnc!unc!bts @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Wombats in SF Does anyone know any SF stories with wombats? Bruce Smith, UNC-Chapel Hill decvax!duke!unc!bts (USENET) bts.unc@CSnet-Relay (lesser NETworks) ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jan 84 7:02:50-PST (Thu) From: decvax!decwrl!root @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Forry Ackerman in THRILLER From: akov68::boyajian Is there anyone else in SFL who has noticed the cameo by Forrest J Ackerman in the "Michael Jackson's THRILLER" video. In the scene in the movie theater, Forry is sitting right behind Jackson. I wasn't sure it was him (the image wasn't too clear, even when I froze the frame (I put in on the same tape as AMERICAN WEREWOLF IN LONDON, appropriately enough), but there was a notice in the December LOCUS that it was him. ---jayembee Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard decvax!decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jan 84 22:11:44-PST (Fri) From: ihnp4!we13!ll1!cej @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: SF movies Dark Star is a GREAT movie, but in the book the scenes between Sgt. Pinback and the "smart" bombs are more involved, and MUCH better. (As with most, the movie doesn't quit measure up to the book.) And if I hadn't read THX-1138 before I saw the movie I would NEVER have been able to follow it at ALL. In fact, I watched it the first time with a friend who had never heard of it, and I was busy the whole time explaining what was going on. (I've also heard that it was G. Lucas's thesis project, or some such.) Chuck Jones ...we13!ll1!cej AT&T Communications ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jan 84 23:24:09-EST (Wed) From: decvax!microsoft!uw-beaver!tektronix!reed!cdi!sequent!monroe @ From: Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Fave SF movies - (nf) True, Rocky Horror was fun, but not the movie. The crowd has better lines and better acting. For mind boggling fun, I would take 'Dark Star'. Doug Monroe {ogcvax,cdi}!sequent!monroe ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jan 84 6:36:08-PST (Sat) From: ihnp4!mit-eddie!gds @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Fave SF movies Some of my fave SF is kind of older, but here goes: The whole Planet of the Apes series, especially {Beneath the, Escape from the} Planet of the Apes. (Roddy McDowall played the major role as Cornelius in Planet and Escape, and as Caesar in Conquest and Battle.) The Omega Man, starring Charlton Heston. Soylent Green, starring the same. I especially enjoyed the scenes where he investigated the Soylent plant. Logan's Run (forgot who starred in it). And, let's not forget, the entire Star Wars series, especially TESB. --greg ...decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!gds (uucp) Gds@XX (arpa) ------------------------------ Date: Sun 15 Jan 84 17:22:19-EST From: Joseph A. Frisbie Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #10 Of course the density of the "vacuum" increases closer to the sun. The sun sprays millions of tons of matter out into space every year. All sorts of wonderful things from photons to protons (or is electons?) that light up your local radiation belts for auras, push your solar sail around the system, and charge up the ionosphere so you can recieve radio broadcasts without standing under the antenna. Sure, its thin, but it's not empty by a long stretch. Joe ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jan 84 9:48:52-PST (Mon) From: harpo!eagle!mhuxl!mhuxm!pyuxww!pyuxa!wetcw @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Speed of Light Just wondering, how do you "collect" a vacuum? Perhaps you mean "uncollect"? To collect something, there has to be something to collect, right? Then, it must follow that to collect nothing, nothing can not be collected, thus, you can't collect a vacuum.:-). Puzzeled by it all --T. C. Wheeler ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jan 84 12:22:59-PST (Mon) From: harpo!eagle!mhuxl!mhuxm!pyuxww!pyuxa!wetcw @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Re: 'Parsec' as a unit of time - (nf) Parsec - a unit of distance. I take for my source Azimov's "I, Robot" Liar. Note the dial in the hyperdrive ship (0 to 1 million parsecs). On the first trip, note the dial, 30,000 parsecs and the comment that they must now be out of the galaxy. The story was written over 30 years ago ( maybe 40). When the technicians returned from their trip, the dial was again on 0. Who, in his right mind, would challange Azimov?:-) T. C. Wheeler ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jan 84 16:43:02-PST (Fri) From: decvax!duke!ucf-cs!giles @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Speed of Light-Relativistic Querry No matter what you do, you will not notice any change in how fast time passes for you. However, to an observer who is in another frame of reference, *subject to the condition that both of your frames are inertial* (that is, you are both free from all acceleration and gravity fields), you will appear to be <1>: shorter by a factor of L' = L * sqrt(1-v^2/c^2) <2>: having time dilation by a factor of t t' = -------------- and sqrt(1-v^2/c^2) What this means is that if you (in the first frame) flash a light every second, the other observer will see it every 1/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2) seconds. Similarly, if you pass through a number of `electric eyes' (see below), a length of 1 meter in the first frame will appear to be sqrt(1-v^2/c^2) meters long in the other frame. LIGHT SOURCES * * * * * * * * | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ============= ->| | | | | | meterstick | | | | | | | | | | v v v v v v v v DETECTORS A very important fact is that these equations are symmetrical. That is, while the second observer sees *you* (the first observer) undergoing length contraction and time dilation, you observe *her* undergoing length contraction and time dilation also. And to each of you, you seem to be perfectly normal. A few of you have probabily heard of the twin paradox, and wonder how it can be reconciled with the above information. In fact, it is an improperly posed question in *special relativity* because in order for the question to have meaning, acceleration must occur. Yet special relativity does not allow for acceleration. --> You must use general relativity to fully understand the solution. (For those of you who think that is a cop-out, when did you stop beating your wife?) Finally, the question concerning FTL cannot be answered in the context of relativity. The theory does not even pretend to be accurate for such conditions, and there is absolutely no experimental data. If you want to claim that everyone turns into toads whenever they use a FTL drive, I won't argue because the discussion is of the form false premise --> any conclusion and such statements are always true in conventional logic. Gimmicks in stories such as Larry Niven's `Known Space' series (i.e., a ship cannot enter hyperspace within a certain (variable) distance from a major mass) may quite possibily be true, but are presently conjecture only. For those with a fairly good mathematical background, I would recommend Wheeler's *Spacetime Physics*. It can be difficult at times, but it covers most of the paradoxes, and (for the masochistic) can be used to lead into Misner/Wheeler/Thorne 's *Gravitation*, a very complete book on general relativity. However, *Gravitation* is at the graduate level, and can easily take several years to understand without help. Bruce Giles UUCP: decvax!ucf-cs!giles cs-net: giles@ucf ARPA: giles.ucf-cs@Rand-Relay Snail: University of Central Florida Dept of Math, POB 26000 Orlando Fl 32816 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 17-Jan SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #14 *** EOOH *** Date: 17 Jan 84 1329-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #14 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 17 Jan 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 14 Today's Topics: Books - Brunner & MacLeish & Wolfe, Films - Indiana Jones, Miscellaneous - Vacuums (2 msgs) & Time Dilation ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 Jan 1984 04:40-PST Subject: John Brunner From: BILLW@SRI-KL Since I am a fan of John Brunner, and since I happen to have my collection of Brunner books here in my office, I guess I'll take a shot at doing an overall review. Ill say right off the bat that I haven't read "Crucible of Time" yet. I just don't buy hardcopy books unless they are REALLY good. Our local library has it in their new book section, so I might get to it in a couple of days. [I was planning on doing this before the last WorldCon, since Brunner was the guest of honor, but I never got around to it.] Anyway: John Brunner is a professional writer. He is not, and has never been any kind of scientist. Thus many of his books are full of scientific flaws, although he is largely able to get around this by not pretending to put hard science in his stories. This also means that even his worst books are pretty well written. Brunner is at his absolute dealing with people and their reaction to science or technology or whatever. The absolute best Brunner deals with situations easily predicted from the present, and that effect large range of people, so that he can go in and show how different types of people will react to the given stress. Brunner writes very effective and powerful images of human emotions. Second best Brunner is the ability to invent an alien (though possibly human) culture, and either show it by itself or contrast it with a nearby human culture. Even the more mundane books frequently have a liberal sprinkling of made-up words and currently non-existent fads that seem quite plausible. John Brunner also is something of an experimenter. It seems that every once in a while he'll decide that he would like to try and write an SF novel based on some obscure piece of history, a less popular field of science, a chess game, or some such. These are occasionally interesting, occasionally boring, and occasionally totally unintelligible. There is also an occasional Brunner novel that seems to have been written so that he can eat. Here's a list of my collection of Brunner books, with short blurbs. These are in decreasing order of overall quality. The Shockwave Rider. An absolute classic computer/sf novel. No one working in the computer field should miss reading this book. Basically, the US is connected by a datanet that is used for everything, giving people so much freedom that they are terrified to be free. The main character has dropped out of the system by making himself a computer "tape worm" that allows him to change identities at will. Also extrapolations of Government incompetence, think tanks, "that's incredible", and the great bay quake of 85. I even bought a hardcover copy of this one! The Sheep Look Up. Basically an extrapolation of the unchecked environmental pollution occurring during the middle-late 60's. Written in a sort of collage style interspersing several viewpoints and sub-plots. A depressing book full of individual triumphs helpless agains overall doom. Also more Government stupidity. Stand on Zanzibar. In the same way the previous book is based on pollution, SoZ is an extrapolation of unchecked population growth, with its attendant pressures on the individual members. Also contains a possibly sentient computer, and a wealth of invented words. Also collaged (even the table of contents is scrambled!). Not quite as depressing as tSLU. The Jagged Orbit. An extrapolation of racial paranoia and "the right to bear arms", in a near future where an individual can purchase weapons sufficient to raise a city block. This book also contains one of the all-time greatest computer error messages. It even has an upbeat ending, more or less. [the above books are grouped together, having generally equivalent quality, tone, and style. I suggest everyone read all of them.] The Whole Man. The worlds most powerful telepath was malformed at birth. Can he still succeed in curing psychological problems in others (which is what telepaths DO, of course)? The main character here is particularly vividly portrayed. The Stone That Never Came Down. How to save the world, given a drug that increases human intelligence. The Long Result. The sociological implications of star travel, and most especially, what will happen when one of the colonies passes earth in technological development. Also Aliens. The Infinitive of Go. A newly invented matter transmitter has an unexpected flaw: the universe you land in is indeterminant. Polymath. Social implications of a shipwrecked colony spacecraft. Whether to stay, or try and repair the craft and leave. [A polymath is a sort of expert in everything, able to gather and quickly integrate data pertinent to many different fields of science. This sort of person is a recurring character in many Brunner novels, both after people are trained for such positions, and earlier in history when they sort of occur by accident.] Total Eclipse. Based on archaeology! A distant planet is found to have the remnants of an advanced technology. Can earth scientists find out what happened to them in time to save earth from the same fate? Another depressing book. The Stardroppers. A strange device allows people to hear funny noises that they believe are coming from the stars. You can buy one at your local hi-fi shop, but some of the people who have been listening have started to vanish! Players at the Game of People. Someone or something is providing selected individuals with the means to do whatever they want, and live in impossible luxury. The question is who, and why? This book went to a lot of trouble to create a conflict and a fascinating scenario, and then it just sort of stopped, which I found very annoying! Catch a Falling Star. A sort of quest novel. Far future earth has forgotten its science, and is indifferent to possible approaching doom in the form of an approaching star. Except for the hero, who attempts to travel to a mountain told of in legends, which may be able to save the world. The Squares of the City. Based on traffic engineering and a chess game! Two latin-american power groups play a deadly game with people for pieces, and our hero is a knight who isn't to happy with the way things are going. Born Under Mars. If you were born in the martian colony, you might have a different outlook on the world... Age of Miracles. Earth has been made into a sort of switching point for an alien travel system. The surviving humans too insignificant to notice... TimeScoop. Do you think you could think of something better to do with a time machine than bring forward a bunch of your relatives for a big party? Well, it isn't clear that the main character can. Bedlam Planet. What should of been a successful colony is suffering from scurvy because a local bacterium is stealing vitamin C before the humans can use it. Should/can the colonists stay and fight the problem, or should they give up and go home, or maybe something else. Web of Everywhere. Social implications of transport booths. Invasion of privacy is the ultimate crime, for example. The Dramaturges of Yan. A planet with incomprehensible relics, and an apathetic local population. What does it mean? Also celestial art. Times Without Number. Sort of a standard time patrol novel. The present has the descendants of the spanish empire in control. Manshape. Why would a world refuse the Bridge, which links together humanity spread across dozens of planets? Double,Double. A monster from the sea that can take the form of creatures that it happens to eat. It could have been a grade B movie! The Avengers of Carrig. A non-interference policy is one thing, but how is it enforced? It isn't easy to expunge a would be king with high technology without interfering even more. More Things in Heaven. Strange monsters are appearing in the sky, and the crew of a starship that hasn't returned yet is seen on earth! This is essentially a first contact story. Meeting at infinity. Poorly understood alien technology can save lives, but it can also have some unexpected side effects. The Productions of Time. A group of actors and associated professionals seem to be expected to perform more than just a play for some unseen spectators, and unknown reasons. Into the Slave Nebula. Earth is prosperous and decadent, but the murder of an android pushes the protagonist into interstellar intrigue. Based on a sort of arguable premise. There's also "The World Swappers", and "Quicksand", but I don't even remember what either is about. Most of these books are rather old, although some seem to be being re-released in the US currently. Enjoy BillW ------------------------------ Date: 13-Jan-1984 0907 From: decwrl!rhea!kermit!parmenter (Tom Parmenter) From: Subject: That Rod Rod MacLeish is a well-known radio commentator and son of the poet Archibald MacLeish, I think. ------------------------------ Date: 16 January 1984 09:06 est From: RTaylor.5581i27TK at RADC-MULTICS Subject: Castle of the Otter According to the dust jacket, The Castle of the Otter is a collection of essays and insights on how he (GW) came to write the four part journey through the mysterious lands of Urth". It's short (113 pp) including the bio-bibliography. No, I haven't read it yet, it's in my "pile". Roz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Jan 84 07:15 EST From: Richard Pavelle Subject: INDIANA JONES AND THE TEMPLE OF DOOM My 8yr old son tells me that INDIANA JONES AND THE TEMPLE OF DOOM is the subtitle on the video cassettes of Raiders of the Lost Ark. If so perhaps the information on the title of the sequel is not correct. Comments? ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jan 84 12:29:46-PST (Thu) From: harpo!eagle!mhuxl!mhuxm!pyuxww!pyuxa!weamc @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Speed of Light,Density of Vacuum In this area of the universe, no one I know considers a vacuum very dense. I would also not want a job trying to "collect" vacuum. If you got paid by how much you "collected," you would always be broke if you were any good at it. Andy Cohill Central Services Organization ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jan 84 12:39:36-PST (Thu) From: harpo!eagle!mhuxl!mhuxm!pyuxww!pyuxa!wetcw @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Speed of Light Come now gentlefolk, "density" of a vacuum? ------------------------------ Date: Mon 16 Jan 84 10:36:03-EST From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA Subject: Tima Dilation Special Relativity predicts the Time Dilation effect, which roughly says that a time interval delta-t measured by one clock will seem to have magnitude delta-t' measured by a clock moving with relative velocity v, where delta-t' = delta-t / sqrt(1-v^2/c^2) Since we can imagine either clock at rest and the other in motion, evidently each clock thinks the other is running slow. The situation is symmetrical. However, the situation is not symmetrical when a starship takes a round trip to Alpha Centauri, since the ship accelerates and decelerates, but the Earth stays (roughly) where it is. The ship's chronometer starts the voyage at rest relative to the Earth, and returns to relative rest at the end of the voyage. It is then found to be slow. Hence the notorious Twin Paradox. Tweedledum makes the trip, leaving Tweedeldee behind to feed the Monstrous Crow. Ten years pass, and then the starship returns, but Tweedledum is only one year older. During the voyage, our intrepid cosmonauts lived in their own "proper time", which remained totally consistent. That is, the men got bristly when the chronometer said that 24 hours had passed; everyone got hungry two or three times in each 16-hour "day" and slept each 8-hour "night" (none of that kinky decadent Starburst stuff on this ship!) But, if they looked out of the portholes, they saw some quite strange things, as magnificently described in Anderson's Tau Zero ("To Outlive Eternity" when originally serialised in Galaxy). The faster they go, the slower ship time passes. So after a long trip, Earth is many thousand years older (see The Long Way Home, again by Anderson) However, everyone ages normally at their own proper time, so a starship captain 5000 Earth years old has still lived only 20000 ship days, eaten 60000 meals, etc. Finally, travel faster than light is of course impossible. Not quite: the equations say that a body ACCELERATED to the speed of light would acquire infinite mass and energy in the process: E = m(v) * c^2 m(v) = m(0) / sqrt(1 - v^2/c^2) The loophole is that a body might "tunnel" through the light barrier, and make an instantaneous transition from sublight motion to superlight motion, entering the world of Feinberg's tachyons. We have little idea what happens then, but moving backwards in time does not seem to be part of it. It seems possible for particles to travel backwards in time at sublight velocities (consider positrons), but if superlight velocities exist then the first equation above suggests some kind of "imaginary" time, in the sqrt(-1) sense. My guess is that there are no superlight velocities, and that while truly instantaneous transitions between places may be possible, motion between them at Warp 6 or whatever is not. Piers Anthony's "Cluster" series (Vicinity Cluster, Chaining the Lady, Kirlian Quest) have several good ideas about the social consequences of various methods of interstellar travel. Robert Firth ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 19-Jan SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #15 *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Jan 84 1317-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #15 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 18 Jan 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 15 Today's Topics: Books - Brooks & Smith & Wombats in SF & Detectives & Recommendations, Films - Favorite SF Movies (3 msgs) & Michael Jackson's Thriller, Miscellaneous - Speed of Light & Faster Than Light Travel & Parsecs ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 Jan 1984 18:26 EST (Mon) From: "Warren J. Madden" Subject: Elfstones - (nf) After passively reading this digest for two months now, I have finally found something that I feel competent about commenting on. Will wonders never cease. I have read the Sword of Shannara twice and believe that the chances of it being a "narrative put to a D&D adventure" are very slim. The book parallels the Lord of the Ring trilogy so much that it verges on the ridiculous. I don't want to spoil the book for those that haven't read it, but I can't resist giving a few examples to support my case: -- A quest do destroy an evil force bent on world domination -- The quest is undertaken by a group composed of members from various races -- The group is advised by a mysterious being with magical powers -- This being does battle with a minion of the evil lord over a flaming pit And that's only the start. The only redeeming twist in the whole thing was that the setting was not a Middle-earth type world but a world long after it had been devastated (and recovered) from a nuclear holocaust. If this was a D&D adventure, it leaves no doubt as to what the adventure was based on. On the other hand, however, The Elfstones of Shannara is nothing like the Sword. I found that the story was more interesting, perhaps because I was paying attention to it rather than looking for the next analogy to LOTR. Still, I knew what would happen chapters before it actually did, which spoiled it somewhat. Elfstones is a much better book than Sword, but I have read better. And so it goes, Warren J. Madden ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jan 1984 2355-EST From: Janice Eisen Subject: Cordwainer Smith (and cats, too!) Reply-to: MDC.JANICE at MIT-OZ I'd like to third (fourth, fifth?) the vote for Cordwainer Smith's Instrumentality series. A factual error was made in one of the comments about NORSTRILIA. It is *not* an abridgement of the two originally published novels. The publisher split the original against Smith's wishes. NORSTRILIA is the novel as Smith intended it to be. All Smith's short fiction has now been collected in two anthologies: THE BEST OF CORDWAINER SMITH and THE INSTRUMENTALITY OF MANKIND. There is a definite time sequence of the stories, but they were divided into two collections with no regard for that. Overall, the stories in THE BEST OF are better, but there are pieces of information it would be nice to have in the other book. My favorite way to read the books is to have them both and to alternate, following the time-line. As to cats: Smith loved cats. The most commonly appearing "underpeople" in his stories are made from cats. You will find real cats in "The Game of Rat and Dragon" which has been anthologized quite a lot. ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 17 Jan 1984 09:36:26-PST From: decwrl!rhea!eludom!winalski (Paul S. Winalski) From: Subject: Wombats in SF Zelazny's (sp?) DOORWAYS IN THE SAND has an alien in it disguised as a talking wombat. --PSW [Moderator's Note: Thanks also to the following for the same information: Chris Heiny (Heiny.henr@parc-maxcx) Mark A. Rosenstein (mar@mit-borax) ] ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 16 Jan 1984 14:19:21-PST From: decwrl!rhea!bach!pierson (Dan L Pierson) From: Subject: Private Detectives with White Suits It's a series by John T. Phillifent. The novel(la?) you cited is "Genius Unlimited" - I've read at least one other. dan ...!decvax!decwrl!rhea!bach!pierson ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jan 1984 13:11 EST (Tue) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" Subject: Seeking recommendations on SF Author There's Zelazny's Chronicles of Amber, Katherine Kurtz' Deryni series (although more fantasy than SF), Farmer's Riverworld and World of Tiers series, Harry Harrison's Deathworld, Stainless Steel Rat, and To The Stars series, and Chalker's Four Lords of the Diamond, to list a few. ------------------------------ Date: 16 January 1984 15:21 est From: RTaylor.5581i27TK at RADC-MULTICS Subject: Favorite SF Movie In addition to many of the movies already mentioned, my first sf movie (and all time favorite, I suppose, because of that) was "The Day the Earth Stood Still". That was my first science fiction exposure of any kind, and really got me started. It was not until after I was "grown" (ie over 21) and thoroughly addicted, that I finally saw "Forbidden Planet" (spelling ? ... correct title ?) -- the one with Walter Pidgeon, Leslie Nielson, Robby the Robot, et al (lots of now "famous" faces in that one!). Roz ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jan 1984 12:25:34 PST From: CARROLL@USC-ISIB Subject: Favorite movies & THX info I get the impression that some people don't watch anything older than about ten years, or they at least only remember recent movies as favorites. I agree that there have been some terrific films made recently, but some of my favorites are older movies. I'll second "The Day the Earth Stood Still" and "Forbidden Planet", and add "The War of the Worlds" (by George Pal, great effects, and quite scary in some places, like when the cylinder blasts those three bumpkins that go walking up waving a handkerchief); "Them" (very good, the best big-bug movie ever, I just wish that James Whitmore hadn't bought it at the end...remember the opening, with the little girl walking through the desert in shock? spooky!); and I must mention my favorite film of all, even though no one may agree, "Robinson Crusoe on Mars". That's right, folks, this film was scientifically accurate to the knowledge and theories of the time (1964), up to the point where Draper encounters the aliens and meets Friday. The equipment that was salvaged from the ship was very interesting, especially the Omnicom transciever, the portable VCR- radio that Draper had. I liked the psychological study of one man facing being alone forever, and I loved the music by Van Cleave. If you haven't seen the uncut version, including the "training tapes" on survival, you've missed out. About THX1138: Lucas made a film in college called THX1138-4EB, about a fellow who wants to escape a totalitarian society, where everyone has an I.D. number on the forehead. At the end, he does, but is not pursued as he leaves the underground city to the presumed-deadly surface. In the final scene he is running into a nice sunset, maybe on a beach, and you here a voice-over of the city controllers notifying other citizens of his accidental death. (details may be slightly off) I saw this several years back. It lasted about fifteen minutes, had been shot in computer classrooms, shopping malls, parking structures, etc., had minimal effects, props, costumes, and acting, but I liked it far better than the theatrical THX1138. Steve (carroll@isib) ------------------------------ Date: Tue 17 Jan 84 01:10:53-MST From: Dudley Irish Subject: Favorite (or best) SF movies. I have seen most of my favorites on this list except for two: A Boy and his Dog. This is based on Elison's short story by the same name and is one of the best adaptations to the screen of a SF story that I have every seen. One of my favorite tricks is to take a young woman to see it, just to see her reaction to the ending. A boy and his dog ... On the Lathe of Heaven. This is the other best adaptation to the screen of a SF story. Based on the novel by the same title by Le Guin, this relatively unknown movie was made for PBS. I would say that it is a must see. Whereas the violence in the above movie might turn some off, there is nothing in this movie except intriguing ideas, surprisingly good sets, and good acting. A real winner for PBS. Dudley Irish IRISH@UTAH-20 P.S. "On the Lathe of Heaven" has the only Zen aliens that I have ever seen. ------------------------------ Date: 17 JAN 1984 0016 EST From: METZ at MIT-ML Subject: Forrest Ackerman Forrest Ackerman is the man seated behind Michael Jackson in the short film "Thriller", and like Jackson, who plays the presumably `bad' guy, he sits through the truly terrifying film they are watching without any particular fear, although those around them seem terrified. In fact, Ackerman has an intent look of total absorption on his face, and Jackson grins through the whole thing, right up to and including the immortal lines "Look - it's a message, written in blood!" "What does it say?" "See you next Wednesday...." :-><-: Harold S. Metz ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jan 84 13:41:42 PST (Monday) From: Caro.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA Subject: Re: Speed of Light This entire disscussion reminds me of the ignorant TV repairperson who, upon dropping a picture tube and hearing a nasty hissing sound, exclaimed, "Damn, now all of the vacuum has leaked out!" Perry ------------------------------ From: Joe Buck Date: Mon, 16 Jan 84 17:29:43 EST Subject: FTL travel may be possible, but Einstein can't be ignored Special relativity is relevant to SF, even though this is incovenient for many authors. Remember that in the past, when new physics was discovered, the old physics was almost always shown to be a first-order approximation. Even if new physics is invented to allow FTL travel, that won't revoke special relativity as an approximation (just as we still use Newton's laws in engineering, even though we know them to be ultimately false). Special relativity shows that if FTL travel is possible, time travel (and causality violation) must occur as well. New physics won't get rid of that (specifically, if there is one reference frame in which I am first at point A, then at point B, and I travelled faster than light between them, another reference frame can be found in which I was at B' first, then at A'). Actually, relativity doesn't explicitly prohibit FTL travel. It just shows that an object with mass can't be accelerated continuously from a velocity below c to one above c. Einstein's interpretation, that no information can travel faster than c, was probably influenced by his intense belief in causality, the same one that kept him from accepting quantum physics. I'm not saying FTL travel, or FTL transmission of information, is not possible. What I am saying is that having it lets you do other things, and has other consequences. SF authors (for the most part) tend to ignore these issues; I haven't seen any that point out (or exploit, why not?) this fundamental connection between FTL travel and time travel. If anyone could point me to such a story, I'd appreciate it. Joe Buck ARPA: buck@nrl-css UUCP: ...decvax!linus!nrl-css!buck ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jan 84 23:12:08 PST (Thu) From: John Mangrich Subject: Parsec as a unit of time Well, remember it's "A *long* time ago in a galaxy far, far away...". I suggest that WE are using the term incorrectly in modern times! ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 21-Jan SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #16 *** EOOH *** Date: 21 Jan 84 1219-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #16 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 20 Jan 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 16 Today's Topics: Books - Bova & High (2 msgs) & Varley & Wolfe & Buck Rogers & Wombats in SF & Book Request & Recommended SF Authors Film - Star Wars on Video Cassettes & Indiana Jones ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Quickey Book Review: "Voyagers," by Ben Bova Date: Wed, 18 Jan 84 18:27:45 EST From: Charles Martin ***** Not a spoiler, in my opinion. Nothing to spoil, anyway. ***** Just finished "Voyagers," by Ben Bova, last night. This is without doubt the worst novel (SF or otherwise) I have read in a long while. The dialogue is grade B, the characterizations grade C, and the plot grade Z. This from a man who wrote a book on how to write SF? "Those who can't do, teach." I'm embarrassed for him. Plot keywords: First contact, tough scientist, faculty politics, evil Russians, Russian good guy, Kremlin infighting, idiotic government, mind-control devices, beautiful lab assistant (shades of "`What a set of knockers' `Why, thank you, Doctor'"), martial arts, moronic military, uncontrollably high testosterone levels, love unrequited, assorted scum. The plot devices in this book were completely stereotyped. No surprises. No new SF ideas, either. "The bureaucratic politics of space" (to use the back cover blurb) which Mr. Bova purportedly excels in presenting, were the most asinine, self-indulgent, and idiotic parts of the book. Ridiculous. Is all Bova like this? This was my first encounter. (And I would not have read this, had it not been the only SF lying around the house.) No wonder no one complained when Varley's new book usurped one of his titles ("Millenium"). What would the reaction have been had the new book been titled, "Dune"? ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jan 84 19:56:07-PST (Mon) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Subject: High & Wolfe - (nf) As for Philip E. High, I think he wrote quite a few halves of Ace Doubles. I've got three with stories by him, out of perhaps ten ADs. Don't know anything about High himself. Wombat ihnp4!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat ------------------------------ Date: Thu 19 Jan 84 04:07:19-CST From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA Subject: High and Brunner ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Hurray for High!^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Hey, that's great! Some other Philip E. High fans! It's a pity that there's so little chance you would be able to read the rest of his books, as, unlike his compatriot John Brunner, if you enjoyed one you'd probably like them all. Most of what people admire by John Brunner is not to my taste, tho I do like his non-fiction (nobody's said ANYthing about his "consumers' report" on time machines!!!!) and his "uppers", STARDROPPERS, THE LONG RESULT, and particularly THE WHOLE MAN. If you've tried some better known Brunner's that turned you off, give \these/ a read, for they're neither ponderous nor dismal. But, Philip E. High, between 1964 and 1968, had eight good 2nd rate novellas/novelettes published in the U.S., mostly in Ace doubles (while Wollheim was editor, I think. So I wondered why we never got any as DAW's.) Once in a blue moon you might run across one nowadays, as nobody seems to want them except collectors trying to fill in all the numbers of their Ace Double collections. Fortunately, I managed to get the whole set some years ago with only minor difficulty-- specifically, interference from the great orthographic similarity of his name with Philip K. Dick's. When you're scanning unsorted rows of paperbacks for a name, you don't so much read as rely on a sort of visual template. And those two names both fit the same shape-pattern. Anyhow, the 8 titles are: 1964 NO TRUCE WITH TERRA THE PRODIGAL SUN 1966 THE MAD METROPOLIS 1967 REALITY FORBIDDEN THESE SAVAGE FUTURIANS TWIN PLANETS 1968 INVADER ON MY BACK THE TIME MERCENARIES I didn't hear anything more of High till somewhere along in the 70's when I ran across a reference to a non-fiction book by him, maybe for kids, to do with dinosaurs. Then sometime maybe 2-3 years ago I saw a couple unfamiliar titles by him in lists of new British SF. Hardbacks, tho, so too pricey for me. But I can't help wondering what his new stuff would be like after that ten year hiatus. If only SF-LOVERS was truly intercontinental! ------------------------------ Date: Thur, Jan 18 1984 From: TIM%VPIVM2.BITNET@Berkeley (Ron Jarrell) Reply-to: TIM%VPIVM2.BITNET@BERKELEY.ARPA Subject: Pending books Anyone know if John Varley is actually going to write the book he set up in Wizard? Presumably the title would have to be Demon.... Thanks, -Ron Jarrell ARPA: Tim%vpivm2.bitnet@Berkeley.arpa Bitnet: Tim@vpivm2 MCIMail: RJarrell Telex: 6501088065 ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jan 84 19:56:07-PST (Mon) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Subject: High & Wolfe - (nf) *Castle of the Otter* was published last year by Ziesing Bros. I had heard Wolfe was doing a fifth New Sun book with a title something like *The Urth of the New Sun*, but CotO isn't it -- rather, it's a book about the writing of the Book of the New Sun, and was picked up by the SF Book Club not long ago. I don't know if/when *The Urth of the New Sun* will show up, though. Wombat ihnp4!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat ------------------------------ Date: Thur, Jan 18 1984 From: TIM%VPIVM2.BITNET@Berkeley (Ron Jarrell) Reply-to: TIM%VPIVM2.BITNET@BERKELEY.ARPA Subject: Pending books Does anyone know what the status is on the Buck Rogers continuation? I've read the first 3 I think, up to the point that Buck goes to the planet of the Prl'Arek, but haven't seen any since, though they might have changed authors again. Thanks, -Ron Jarrell ARPA: Tim%vpivm2.bitnet@Berkeley.arpa Bitnet: Tim@vpivm2 MCIMail: RJarrell Telex: 6501088065 ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jan 1984 1432-EST From: Wang Zeep Subject: Wombat SF "Charles Fort Never Mentioned Wombats" by either Coulson or Weese. About a bunch of fans who save the world at an Aussiecon. wz ------------------------------ Date: Wed 18 Jan 84 06:02:32-CST From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA Subject: FTL time dilation story ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ A Lost Story ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Somewhere around 1970-- not too long before Laser Books hit the market, whenever THAT was-- I read but lost track of a short story I particularly liked involving time dilation. Tenuous kinesthetic memory says I read it in hardback, so it would have been a library book. It had something of the flavor of Sturgeon, but I don't t-h-i-n-k it was by him. It's a pity to spoil it here, so I'll tell it just as well as I can manage. This is my only chance of finding it again. It largely takes place as flashbacks while the protagonist is traveling by monorail, alone, somewhere in the environs of West Virginia or Pennsylvania. The loveliness of the revived landscape is new to him because he has just been released from a century of cryogenic imprisonment imposed because of something he had written mildly critical of the then-government. He had been a young college professor, recently and deeply happily married. In the intervening years the repressive regime had been overthrown, but the cryogenic process had been booby-trapped so that any attempt to unfreeze the victims before their terms were up would kill them. He is still as young, and has been assured of any benefit the benevolent contemporary society can provide in making a new life for himself. But that is little comfort to a man whose "just yesterday" when he saw the agonized face of the coltish young girl who had been his bride, determinedly standing where they could share a last look as he was taken to incarceration-- had been a hundred years ago. His thoughts are all of her as he makes this pilgrimage to the little settlement where they had set up their first home. He recalls the furniture, the curtains... the \place/ that enfolded their love. After a hundred years he wonders if even the foundation of their cottage will be left, but even that little would be a preciously poignant relic to him. He alights from the all-automated monorail car and makes his way past the little tree-nestled settlement, glad that there's no one about. Ignoring the sounds of pleasant revelry in the community house, he finds the path to the cottage site... and it's still there! No one answers his knock, but the door is unlatched and he goes in. He is shocked to see everything just as it had been a hundred years before, even the color of the curtains. And he knows it would be impossible. Then he observes minute differences, a slightly different angle on a chair-back, wallpaper pattern which is only similar, not the same. Had she somehow arranged for this before she died however many years ago, he wonders. Had she known he would come and ached to make him welcome in this new world of largely dispersed rural population served by the automated monorails, an uncrowded world, thanks to the great starships which have been settling new worlds during all those years he slept. And there, of course, is the crux of the story-- a ploy unimpressive in 1984, but fresh enough in the late 60's to catch one unexpecting. He hears a step-- turns-- and she is there. Poised, no longer a coltish girl, with all the mature beauty he had foreseen; mature, but not old! It was such a beautiful happy ending! YOU can figure it out-- With everyone pushing to go to fresh new planets, there was great need for personnel to staff the starships, going AND coming, people without ties at either end of the journeys who would not be distressed by the time dilation effect of the FTL drive. She saw in that the way to pass the century in a few perceived years, shipped out and back in such a pattern as to be on hand when he was revived, came back and reconstructed their home, and is HERE! Where can I find this story again!!???! ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jan 84 13:51:18-PST (Tue) From: harpo!eagle!mhuxl!cbosgd!cbscc!trb @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Recommendations on SF Authors In regard to your request for authors, here are two that no one has mentioned: Brian Aldiss - He is English and has been writing sf since the late 50's. He has many good books, some of my favorites are ; "Cryptozoic", "The Long After noon of Earth" and "The Billion Year Spree". The last is a history of sf. His latest project is a trilogy (vol. 2 was just released in hardback). It is about a frozen world that has summer once every couple of thousand years. It is the Helliconia Trilogy (vol. 1 is Helliconia Spring and vol. 2 is Helliconia Summer). I've not read these yet, but the reviews on them are good. Michael Moorcock - Another Brit. He has a trilogy "Dancers at the End of Time" which is a look at the end of the world. The set includes: "An Alien Heat, The Hollow Land and The End of All Songs". He also wrote "Behold the Man", which is a sf look at Christ - very good! ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jan 84 9:21:42-PST (Mon) From: harpo!floyd!whuxle!pyuxll!abnjh!u1100a!pyuxn!pyuxww!pyuxqq!pat @ From: Ucb-Vax Subject: TESB and ROTJ on video cassettes? Does anyone out there in netland know if/when TESB and ROTJ will be available on video cassette? I have heard that there is much more control over them, and may never be released in this way. Is this true? Are there bootleg copies available? Any info will be appreciated. Thanks in advance. Pat Iurilli CSO Piscataway, NJ {ihnp4, harpo}!pyuxqq!pat ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 84 11:47 PST (Wednesday) From: FUSCO.ES@PARC-MAXC.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #14 Indiana Jones and The Temple of Doom IS the next movie in the saga. The rental versions of Raiders of the Lost Arc has a 1 minute preview for Temple of Doom. Joe ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 22-Jan SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #17 *** EOOH *** Date: 22 Jan 84 2314-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #17 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 22 Jan 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 17 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Bova & Bradley & Brunner (2 msgs) & Cats in SF & Recommended Authors, Films - Indiana Jones & Favorite SF Movies (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - General Relativity & Density of Vacuums & Faster Than Light & Parsecs ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tuesday, 17 Jan 1984 14:16:10-PST From: decwrl!rhea!eiffel!maxwell@Shasta Subject: Help me find a book.... After looking in the Boston area for some time now, I've finally decided to ask readers of sf-lovers for a lead on an out-of-print book. I'm looking for at least one and preferably two copies of "Tomorrow's Children", an anthology edited by Issac Asimov. At one time, about five years ago, I found a paperback copy in a regular bookshop; my assumption is/was that it was then in print. I wasn't able to afford it then, and haven't found it since. I need at least one paperback copy to replace the one I borrowed *and lost*, and would like one for myself. If anyone can assist by locating a store with cop(y/ies), or has one (or more ?) to sell, I'd be anxious to hear from you. For those not familiar with the book, it is a collection of some *very* good stories about children. "Gillead" (?) by Zenna Henderson, one of the chapters in her "Pilgrimage: The Book of the People", was my first introduction to Henderson. Other stories, like "Star Bright" and "The Cave Boy", were some of the best short stories I've ever read. Although they were about juveniles, the stories weren't juvenile. I heartily recommend the book to all who enjoy warm, people-oriented speculative short fiction. - Sid Maxwell (603) 881-2064 ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jan 84 9:45:36-PST (Thu) From: ihnp4!ihuxs!okie @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Quickey Book Review: "Voyagers," by Ben Bova I have to agree with the review of "Voyagers." I haven't liked much of what Bova has written, anyway. Two that I have liked are "Colony" for its wide scope and decent (and believable) set of extrapolations, and "Millenium" (though not as much). Other than that, I haven't really liked anything Bova has produced. AS you say, perhaps teaching has gone to his head -- it certainly hasn't gone to his pen. B.K. Cobb AT&T Bell Labs Naperville, IL ihnp4!ihuxs!okie ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jan 1984 1254-EST From: The Menagerie Subject: Darkover Can anyone give me a list of all the Darkover books? I just recently started reading the series, and I enjoy it very much, so I want to be able to read all of them. Thanks. Greg McMullan(G.Menagerie@MIT-EECS) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jan 84 04:22 MST From: DBarker@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: John Brunner Off the top of my head (further info when I can check my extensive library of Brunner at home) if you like the "eco" Brunners - and I agree that the trilogy you mentioned is probably his best work, then you'll also like "The Jagged Orbit" and "The Wrong End of Time", both of which are set in the nearish future, and probably also "The Infinitive of Go", which has some nice paranoid aspects particularly appropriate in this year. Deryk Barker. ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 20 Jan 1984 10:13:03-PST From: decwrl!rhea!spider!lewis@su-shasta Subject: reply to billw@sri-kl about John Brunner John Brunner also wrote a series of short stories later collected as The Traveler in Black that can best be characterized as fantasy. The Traveler in Black is one of the elder gods and his function is to bring forth order from chaos. Brunner makes "him" and the other elder gods believable beings one can empathize with. The stories are all ironic fables about some very strange beings. Brunner makes you understand how their nature and personality interact so you get to know them. The fantasy of SF writers always has this logical neatness to it. I guess it's because they don't just say "anything can happen" but carefully set up a universe with different laws, which they proceed to follow as carefully as they can, working out the consequences in the same way. - Suford ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 15 Jan 1984 17:50:21-PST From: decwrl!rhea!druid!turner@Shasta Subject: Reply v.9 7 & 8 In the "Children" anthology in the anniversary series of Analog anthologies, there is a story about a girl in communication with a telepathic race of native aliens possessing such power to blend in with their surroundings that human scientists think they are extinct. Can't give you title, chapter, or verse, but the aliens are unmistakeably feline. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jan 84 15:15 CST From: Finch.dlos@PARC-MAXC.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #15 I think the all time best science fiction series is the WELLWORLD series by Jack L. Chalker. Another good one by the same author for light entertainment is "AND THE DEVIL WILL DRAG YOU UNDER". Any book by Niven or Hogan is guaranteed good reading. Jim Finch Xerox, Dallas ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jan 84 13:22:47 PST From: Scott Turner Subject: Indiana Jones... I'm surprised no one else has mentioned this, but they've been showing a longer trailer for ``Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom'' in LA for quite some time. Most of the teaser is Indiana in what appears to be an underground temple of some sort. There is an evil Lord type and so on. Mood looks pretty good, with lots of adventure stunts and so on. The scene that gets the biggest reaction from the crowd is one where Indiana comes upon two large sword wielding Turks. They whirl their swords around in impressive fashion. Indiana just smirks and reaches for his pistol -- but his holster is empty! Whoops...very funny. -- Scott Turner ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jan 1984 1832 PST From: Alvin Wong Subject: SF Movies... Reply-to: RAOUL@JPL-VAX I see most of the sf movies I liked already listed here except for two : "The Quaestor Tapes" - This was a made for TV pilot about an android designed to "save" the human race by influencing world events. The android, Quaestor, due to incomplete programming, searches for the purpose of his existence and eventually finds it. The movie did not score high enough ratings to earn a series though I personally thought the actor who played Quaestor made a very good android. Too bad. "Silent Running" - Basically a film to save the ecology. The Earth has been so urbanized that a place for the natural fauna and flora no longer exists. They are placed in dome structures connected to orbiting space ships. The effects were good. The acting was so so but I liked it overall. Al Wong ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 15 Jan 1984 17:50:21-PST From: decwrl!rhea!druid!turner@Shasta Subject: Reply v.9 7 & 8 Wasn't "Day of the Triffids" fun? Unalloyed corn, to be sure. "2001" remains undisputed master in my book: it doesn't matter what the technology available, knowing what to do with it (=talent) makes the real difference. On re-viewing a few years ago, "Forbidden Planet" seemed to have punk FX compared to my childhood memories, but a more respectable thesis than I had remembered. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jan 1984 1615-PST Subject: General Relativity From: Alan R. Katz I agree that Wheeler and Taylor's "Spacetime Physics" is really excellent and explains most of the paradoxes of Relativity. HOWEVER, DO NOT EVER try to read Gravitation, by Misner, Thorne, and Wheeler to aid in understanding things. It is really bizarre and very hard to make heads or tales of, even if you know General Relativity!! (It is, however, a great book to skim through, and certain parts are interesting. It is also a great book to impress everyone with, being extremely massive.) One of the best General Relativity books I've seen is the one by Weinberg called something like "General Relativity." It actually develops much of the math you need, and covers Special Relativity, Gravity Waves, and much of cosmology. It too is a graduate school level text, but General Relativity is really a graduate level subject. (Also, Adler, Bazin, Shiff (unsure of the exact names, but something like that) is also very good, and is more elementary than Weinberg.) Alan ------------------------------ From: Joe Buck Date: Tue, 17 Jan 84 23:17:01 EST Subject: Density of a vacuum At least two people have posted messages indicating their belief that the concept of density of a vacuum is absurd. Since density is mass over volume, a vacuum has a density of zero. Actually the situation is more complex. Quantum field theory shows that all vacuums have nonzero density, because particle pairs are constantly being created and destroyed out of nothing. Further discussions of vacuums should probably move to the physics list. ------------------------------ From: duntemann.wbst@PARC-MAXC.ARPA Date: 18 Jan 84 16:13:25 EST Subject: FTL The beauty of special relativity and time dilation is that it does NOT completely outlaw FTL travel. It only outlaws FTL with respect to an external reference frame. If you abandon external reference frames, you can travel as quickly as you like. With the exception of Anderson, few SF writers have picked up on this, and none that I know of treat it as a normal, useful effect. For example, assume you have a total conversion drive which accelerates all particles within a given volume equally--no stresses are placed on the substance of the starship or the people inside. With total conversion of matter, accelerations of 2000 or 3000 G should be easy enough to achieve. This violates no physical laws that I know of; obviously we don't know how to do it yet nor will we for some time. But that magnitude of acceleration would make a trip to the nearer stars a matter of weeks or months rather than centuries. So who gives a damn if the universe ages a millenium in the process? If the idea is to get a boatload of colonists somewhere, timeslips like that are trivial--the planet won't change noticeably in the meantime. If we can ever perfect a "thruster" as Niven called them, we will travel as fast as we like--as long as we never look back. Godspeed, Jeff Duntemann duntemann.wbst@PARC-MAXC ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 18 Jan 1984 11:12:51-PST From: decwrl!rhea!super!kenah (Andrew Kenah) From: Subject: Parsecs Since I haven't seen it stated categorically, I will: A parsec is a measure of distance. It equals about 3.26 light years. First of all, parsec is short for parallax-second. It is the distance at which an object would shift one second of arc in relation to further "stationary" objects over the course of six earth months. Parallax shifts were used to make the first accurate measurements of the nearest stars. Parallax is not easy to explain without pictures, but if necessary, and if requested, I'll give it a try. My feeling about the "12 parsec" line in SW is: Lucas probably thought the parsec was a short form of a time measurement, akin to kiloton or megabuck. However, the "sec" doesn't refer to time; it refers to angular measurement. Peace, Andrew Kenah ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 24-Jan SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #18 *** EOOH *** Date: 24 Jan 84 1252-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #18 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 24 Jan 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 18 Today's Topics: Books - Bova & Brooks & Farmer & schmitz & Book request (2 msgs) & Recommendations, Films - "A Boy and His Dog" (2 msgs) & Video Cassette Piracy, Miscellaneous - A Universal System of Units & FTL & General Relativity ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 21 Jan 84 20:51:30 CST From: Mike Caplinger Subject: Re: Quickey Book Review: "Voyagers," by Ben Bova I feel compelled to defend Bova. While old Ben is pretty heavy-handed about government, the military, and social decline (his non-fiction THE HIGH ROAD is rife with such) a lot of his fiction is worthwhile. I liked MILLENNIUM, and its sequel, COLONY, is only slightly less worthwhile, and its prequel, KINSMAN, is OK too. Some of his earlier work, like THE DUELING MACHINE, is quite interesting. And who could fault THE STARCROSSED, a fictionalized sendup of Harlan Ellison's encounter with Canadian TV? I will gladly admit that VOYAGERS was poor, as was his juvenile EXILES trilogy, but he usually writes worthwhile hard science fiction. And a lot of his non-fiction (such as THE NEW ASTRONOMIES, and THE FOURTH STATE OF MATTER) is competent too. Not Asimov, but... ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jan 1984 09:34-PST Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #13 From: Craig E. Ward Cc: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!ctvax!uokvax!andree@UCB-VAX Date: 10 Jan 84 20:00:02-PST (Tue) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!ctvax!uokvax!andree @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Elfstones - (nf) The Sword of Shannara was obviously a narrative put to a D&D adventure. Is the sequel the same sort of thing? --Dick Wexelblat ------------------------------ Even Lord of the Rings can be viewed as a "narrative put to a D&D adventure". That in itself detracts from neither the quality of the narrative nor of the story. While I enjoyed Sword of Shannara I did not buy Elfstones of Shannara when it first came out as a trade paperback. I waited another two years for it to come out as a mass market paperback. After reading Elfstones I just may buy Terry Brooks' next work as a trade paperback. Elfstones is better than Sword, both in characterization and story. Craig ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jan 84 20:20:00 EST From: WASER@RUTGERS.ARPA Subject: Philip Jose Farmer I may be displaying my ignorance, but I've never understood why anyone would regard the Riverworld series as good enough to recommend to anyone. Granted that it has some good novel ideas, my point is that it is a classic case of a good concept being totally ruined. I was suckered into reading the whole series by my belief that it had to get better or have some sort of awesome ending. No such luck. And not that the ending was that bad, it just had no rational development or plausibility. I'm the type of reader who can feel that a book can be worthwhile if EITHER the ending was worthwhile (in terms of being well-done and developed and entertaining interesting concepts) OR I enjoyed reading it (due to good writing style, interesting concepts, or whatever) though I do tend to be somewhat disappointed if the ending doesn't match (best example of this is The Weirdstone of Brisengamen (sp?)- great book except for the way everything is wrapped up in the last few pages [do read it and the sequel, though]). Farmer, though, just had a good opening hook and went nowhere with it (and his ideas are ordinary and the literary style is nothing special). I figured that after the good opening hook that the ending was probably worth all the wading through. I was wrong. I would like to see anyone explain why it is a top caliber series. My guess is that people read it as it was coming out and got suckered along the same way I did except that with the long time between reading the books tended to remember the earlier ones in a better light in anticipation of what they were leading up to (they seemed like they were leading up to a really great ending & all we got was a fizzle [I was soooo bummed]). So how about it all ye who feel its worth recommending, why don't you tell us why? ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jan 84 16:18:13-PST (Thu) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!philabs!linus!utzoo!kcarroll @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Reply v.9 7 & 8 Sadly, I beleive that James H. Schmitz is dead. I vaguely remember reading his obituary in one of my back-issues of Analog, some years ago. I'm not sure, but I think that he died while Campbell was still editor. There'll never be any stories about the Hub again, more's the pity. -Kieran A. Carroll ...decvax!utzoo!kcarroll ------------------------------ Date: 22 January 1984 00:47 EST From: Adam G. Mellis A friend of mine is looking for a book she read a long time ago, but she doesn't remember the title or author. I am posting the description that she gave me. Any pointers to possible sources would be appreciated. Two young boys go scuba diving after a tidal wave/severe storm and find an underwater cave with an emerald green crypt. The crypt contains a lizard/man type creature who comes to life and befriends the boys, eventually showing them his underground city, and driving them in his craft which can penetrate rock by melting it. She didn't remember the ending. Thanks Adam (Mellis@MIT-MC) ------------------------------ Date: Sun 22 Jan 84 04:39:00-CST From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA Subject: Lost short story ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ The Lost FTL Time Dilation Story ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ The 1st lead on the story was from someone who recalls reading it in Analog. Does anybody have a late-60's collection s/he could/would browse? Please? I really crave that story. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1984 11:12:40 EST From: AXLER.Upenn-1100@Rand-Relay (David M. Axler - MSCF Applications From: Mgr.) Subject: Indirect Recommendations The problem of recommending books to people (or vice versa) is not a simple one, especially when it's being done over the network. It's hard to determine why someone likes a specific book, and without that info you can't extrapolate as to whether or not s/he would like another book that has certain (but not all) features in common with the first book. There is a solution, of sorts, though. Don't make direct recommendations at all -- make indirect ones instead. The best source for indirect referrals in sf is Baird Searles & Martin Last, "A Reader's Guide to Science Fiction". S&L run NYC's Science Fiction Shop, and S. writes reviews for one of the major magazines, so you've got a pair of knowledgeable authors here. What they do in the book is to provide brief, non-spoiler summaries of books, authors, and styles. If the book you just read is part of a series, the "Guide" will help you find the titles of the other members. And, it often contains opinions of the "well, if you liked X, then you ought to try Y and Z, because..." variety. Fantasy readers should note that there's a matching volume for them, titled (what else) "A Reader's Guide to Fantasy" by Searles, Last, and a few friends whose names won't come to mind. The other book that is incredibly useful in exploring sf and fantasy, especially when you want detailed author biographies or info on specific topics and themes within sf, is Peter Nichols' "Science Fiction Encyclopedia". It's a bit out of date, but that doesn't make the info in it any less useful as far as it goes. The book has some excellent articles on specific themes (alternate histories, women in sf, etc.), plus good info on authors and books. (Locus Publications, by the way, is selling copies of the hardback edition dirt-cheap -- check their ads in Locus for more details). Dave Axler ------------------------------ Date: Fri 20 Jan 84 01:31:23-EST From: Janice Subject: Film adaptation of "A Boy and His Dog" I have to disagree strenuously with the favorable opinion recently expressed about this movie. I thought it didn't even approach the impact of the story (well, yeah, sure, if you're looking for a visceral reaction at the prospect of being fed to a dog...) There were numerous changes made in the original story, all of them to its detriment. The most obvious one is the change from a decaying city to a desert. Cheaper, I guess, but the city was a stronger image. The most important (and worst) change was in the society underground. In the original, it was not viciously hypocritical, condemning people to death with a smile and letting monstrous robots pursue them; it was simply an attempt to restore Middle American, middle class, small-town life. The whole point of this in the story is that such a life is utterly deadening and forces people into hypocrisy (the matter of sex Underground is treated much more subtly in the story than the film). The film lost this point by having villains run the town. Ellison was saying that the town is like this not because nasty people run it, but by its very nature -- and thus condemning traditions held sacred by many. It's a very 60s type of story (I say this not to condemn, merely to describe). Aside from that major flaw, the ending of the story is more horrifying in its lack of description than the film, depending on visual images, could ever be. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jan 84 14:52:02-PST (Fri) From: ihnp4!fortune!norskog @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Film adaptation of "A Boy and His Dog" The underground city in the movie is a commentary on Disneyland. ------------------------------ Date: Sun 22 Jan 84 04:25:05-CST From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA Subject: SW piracy ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ SW Bootlegging ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Are there bootleg video-cassette copies of TESB and ROTJ available? Of \course/ there are! Even if every single projectionist in the nation was of Lensman integrity--ha!--I saw newspaper reports of at least 2 thefts of theatre prints. (In comparison with what pirated copies of SW-IV was going for in the latter months of 1977, I hear they're fairly cheap, with ROTJ the cheaper. Even blackmarket customers have SOME aesthetic discrimination.) But Lucasfilm is MIGHTY tetchy about the matter, and nobody in his right mind will admit possession. Especially not on SF-LOVERS! (It's criminal, for one thing, which is ab-so-lute-ly verboten on the net, and for another, \we/ all DO have Lensman integrity.) ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jan 84 22:23:28-PST (Thu) From: ihnp4!mit-eddie!gds @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: A universal system of units Why not have a universal system based on 42, since it is the Ultimate Answer? :-) --greg {decvax!genrad, eagle!mit-vax, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gds (UUCP) Gds@XX (ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jan 84 13:54:58-PST (Sat) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!philabs!sbcs!bnl!stern @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: FTL > For example, >assume you have a total conversion drive which accelerates all >particles within a given volume equally--no stresses are placed on >the substance of the starship or the people inside. With total >conversion of matter, accelerations of 2000 or 3000 G should be >easy enough to achieve. This violates no physical laws that I know >of; obviously we don't know how to do it yet nor will we for some >time. Actually, to do this would require communicating a change in velocity instantly over a nonzero distance, which is prohibited by special relativity. This is the cause of the large-stick-in-the- small-garage special relativity so-called paradox. The point is, that any FTL scheme would require that special relativity be extended in a radical way, and we would probably need a new way of looking at space-time in order to resolve all the causality paradoxes that arise in special relativity from FTL communications. That is why this is science fiction right now. Eric G. Stern ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Jan 84 06:30 EST From: Richard Pavelle Subject: General Relativity Cc: KATZ@USC-ISIF.ARPA Date: 17 Jan 1984 1615-PST Subject: General Relativity From: Alan R. Katz I agree that Wheeler and Taylor's "Spacetime Physics" is really excellent and explains most of the paradoxes of Relativity. HOWEVER, DO NOT EVER try to read Gravitation, by Misner, Thorne, and Wheeler to aid in understanding things. It is really bizarre and very hard to make heads or tales of, even if you know General Relativity!! (It is, however, a great book to skim through, and certain parts are interesting. It is also a great book to impress everyone with, being extremely massive.) One of the best General Relativity books I've seen is the one by Weinberg called something like "General Relativity." It actually develops much of the math you need, and covers Special Relativity, Gravity Waves, and much of cosmology. It too is a graduate school level text, but General Relativity is really a graduate level subject. (Also, Adler, Bazin, Shiff (unsure of the exact names, but something like that) is also very good, and is more elementary than Weinberg.) The authors of Katz' reference are Adler, Bazin, and Shiffer. I agree this is a good book. I believe that Weinberg's General Relativity and Cosmology is the best of the modern texts. However, if someone wants to understand the mathematics and get some insight into the subject, the best book ever written is about 60 years old. It is Eddington's Mathematical Theory of Relativity. Eddington was one of the first (probably the second person after Einstein) to really understand the subject and its implications. His ability to impart his knowledge was in a class of its own. One can learn a great deal by studying this one book. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 25-Jan SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #19 *** EOOH *** Date: 25 Jan 84 1608-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #19 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 25 Jan 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 19 Today's Topics: Books - Berlitz & Bova & Chalker & Herbert (2 msgs) & Russ & Young & The Dernyi & Cats in SF & Book Request (2 msgs), Films - Indiana Jones & Favorite SF Movies (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Parallax & STL Travel, Parsecs, Etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1984 09:58:28 EST From: AXLER.Upenn-1100@Rand-Relay (David M. Axler - MSCF Applications From: Mgr.) Subject: Miscellaneous comments The book entitled The Philadelphia Experiment was written by Charles Berlitz -- the same guy who brought the Bermuda Triangle to our attention, and then spent umpteen months on the talks show circuit explaining the unexplainable phenomena to the masses. (Hmmmm, maybe Steve Jackson will add a Philadelphia Experiment card to the Illuminati game...) Dave Axler ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 23 Jan 1984 09:20:42-PST From: decwrl!rhea!elmer!goun (Roger H. Goun) From: Subject: Re: Quickey Book Review: VOYAGERS, by Ben Bova Fortunately, I picked VOYAGERS up without high expectations, having been told in advance how awful it was. It was even worse than I expected! The idea that a government might not act responsibly when faced with the possibility of contact with an alien intelligence seems perfectly reasonable to me (how do you know it hasn't already happened?). Bova's execution of the idea, though, is so heavy-handed as to be ludicrous. First contact is one of my favorite SF themes. Too bad Bova blew it so badly. Not all of his work is as bad as VOYAGERS, though. KINSMAN, for example, is a fine collection of short stories which revolve around macho military spaceman Chet Kinsman at the start of the space age. Bova's MILLENIUM is the sort of novel that can make you very late to work the next morning if you pick it up in the evening. It's a gripping story of an attempt by the U.S. and Soviet crews of a moon base (established during a period of relative detente) to prevent the superpowers from waging a nuclear war. COLONY, set later in the same universe, does a pretty good job of describing how the politics of terror -- which we might have hoped to leave behind when space colonies are established -- could still intrude. Don't give up on Bova just yet. -- Roger Goun UUCP: {decvax, ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!elmer!goun ARPA: decwrl!rhea!elmer!goun@SU-Shasta USPS: Digital Equipment Corp., HLO2-2/H13 77 Reed Road; Hudson, MA 01749 Tel: (617) 568-6311 ------------------------------ Date: Mon 23 Jan 84 17:30:06-EST From: JACOB@CMU-CS-C.ARPA Subject: Some responses Chalker is a total hack author. I used to really enjoy him, but I then made the mistake of rereading some of his books. Too formula, too mechanized, too pat. Except maybe Midnight at the Well of Souls, which I read twice and still enjoyed. The same, incidentally, is true of Hogan, although from the recent discussions, that's probably sacreligous. ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 22 Jan 1984 14:14:13-PST From: decwrl!rhea!elmo!tillery@su-shasta Subject: DUNE V - "HERETICS of DUNE" I just picked up the Feb. "84" edition of OMNI and was quite suprised to find in the "Coming Attractions" section that there will be an excerpt from DUNE V (Heritics of Dune) in the March "84" edition of OMNI. The plot will center on "a girl that finds the courage and power to control the great Shaitan, a giant sandworm indigenous to her planet". This is the first I have heard of this Dune V, can anyone add anything to it? Thanx, RyKiT_ p.s. This may be old news to some but I have just begun receiving SF-L again after being w/out it since Oct "82"! Bet I missed a lot! ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jan 84 0:13:57-PST (Sun) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!sdccsu3!za62 @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Frank Herbert- The Dosadi Experiment, The Whipping Star > Date: Mon 16 Jan 84 09:21:23-EST > From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA > Subject: Frank herbert Books > Those who liked Destination: Void might try The Dosadi >Experiment. It is not in any "sequence" with the other books, but >addresses several of the same themes. One thing I would like to add: The Dosadi Experiment is the sequel to The Whipping Star, and it would be advisable to read tWS before tDE because some of the themes and activities in tWS are brought up in tDE. Brian Keves sdcsvax!sdccsu3!za62 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1984 09:58:28 EST From: AXLER.Upenn-1100@Rand-Relay (David M. Axler - MSCF Applications From: Mgr.) Subject: Miscellaneous comments The Joanna (not Johanna) Russ story in Dangerous Visions was "When It Changed". This story is also incorporated in her novel, The Female Man. Dave Axler ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jan 1984 17:06:02-EST From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX Subject: story query The story is by Robert F. Young (almost all 1950's and 60's SF that a cynic might classify as "slushy" is by Young); recollection in the absence of my collection says the title was "One Love Have I". I found it in ACROSS THE SEA OF SPACE, an anthology by William Nolan; don't know whether this came out in hardback or you found it elsewhere. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jan 1984 12:30 EST (Mon) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" Subject: The Deryni I heard a rumour recently that a new Deryni novel, "The Bishop's Heir", will be coming out this spring. Anyone heard anything about it? ------------------------------ Date: Mon 23 Jan 84 09:16:17-EST From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA Subject: invisible telepathic cats The enquiry about the invisible telepathic felines everyone thought extinct, and the girl who could communicate with them, sounds VERY like the first of James Schmitz' "Telzey" stories - the girl in question being Telzey Amberdon, the felines "crest cats", and the story "Novice", in Analog some time in 1963. The story is collected (with a couple of other Telzey stories) in a pb with the dreadful title "The Universe Against Her". There were quite a lot of Telzey stories in Analog, as I recall; the best for my money was "The Lion Game", also now in pb Robert Firth ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jan 84 0:38:02-PST (Mon) From: hplabs!hp-pcd!orstcs!messick @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Help me find a book.... - (nf) I can't help you with "Tommorow's Children" but I can suggest a place to look. Mark Ziesing of Ziesing Bros. can probably find a copy (or two) for you if anyone can. Try writing or calling: Mark Ziesing PO Box 806 Willimantic CT 06226 (203) 423-5836 days (203) 423-3867 evenings --steve {hp-pcd,teklabs}!orstcs!messick ------------------------------ Date: Mon 23 Jan 84 17:30:06-EST From: JACOB@CMU-CS-C.ARPA Subject: Some responses I read a story a long time ago that described a mental hospital where everyone thought he was one of the doctors, either treating a patient, or pretending to be a patient while actually treating the 'doctors'. The story didn't state whether anyone was actually sane or insane. It was probably in a short story collection, if that helps. Does anyone know of what I speak [write]? ------------------------------ Subject: Indiana Jones & Movie Reviews Date: Mon, 23 Jan 84 13:05:13 EST From: Charles Martin I have been reading the messages about IJ&TD with interest, looking for details of when it would be released, etc. I find that I am now going to have to stop reading such messages. Apparantly, some people have a hard time believing that others do NOT WANT TO KNOW plot details, individual scenes, ESPECIALLY those which get the best crowd reactions. If I go to a movie and see the trailer with the scene, fine. At least I SAW it and had the pleasure of reacting. But PLEASE don't talk about it on the list! Usually, people use a simple mechanism when they have got to get such things off their chests: *********************** SPOILER! ******************************** Now, if you are reading this, then you are one of the people who likes to know things ahead of time. Not all of us are this way. Please, a little more thought before typing next time. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jan 1984 11:16 EST (Tue) From: Gregory Faust Subject: FAVE SF movies I agree with almost all of the nominations for great SF films that have appeared so far, including such unlikely ones as Robinson Crusoe on Mars (which I enjoyed a lot when I saw it as a kid), except for ANY of the Planet of the Apes movies. Come on now! Even Roddy McDowal couldn't save those bombs! I would also like to specifically agree with the person who mentioned "A Boy and His Dog". I saw it for the first time within the last year, and really liked it. Now for the addition of some new titles which are, in my opinion, excellent movies which might not be considered main line SF. First, I can't rave enough about "The Illustrated Man" starring Rod Steiger. It was based on the book of the same name by Ray Bradbury. Besides the fact that Rod Steiger is one of the all time great actors around, and that he puts in one of his best performances in this one, the pacing and mood that the movie projects are truly excellent. A must see for anyone. Secondly, I must at least mention "Slaughterhouse Five". This movie rides the same very delicate balance between humor and seriousness that is found in the original work by Kurt Vonnegut. The mood etc., is also in very good agreement with the book. One caveat though, this is one of those movies that is really hard to follow if you haven't read the book. For example, when I saw it, the guy beside me kept mumbling under his breath "Now how the hell did he get THERE? What is going on in this movie?" I tried to explain to him, as the movie had briefly mentioned, that the protagonist was "unstuck in time" and that was why the movie seemed to jump around a lot, but I don't think this explanation satisfied him much. Anyway, the fact that you have to have read the book first isn't that damning. After all how many of you will claim to have understood 2001 without having read the book. And I for one certainly wouldn't want to hold ANYTHING against 2001. Happy viewing, Greg ------------------------------ Date: Mon 23 Jan 84 17:30:06-EST From: JACOB@CMU-CS-C.ARPA Subject: Some responses The Lathe of Heaven (I believe the correct title is a pretty good movie). Does anyone really consider any of the recent space operas to be serious contenders for all time great SF movie? Bladerunner gets my vote; I thought 2001 a bit pretentious, and most of the older movies really don't hold up any more. Maybe Dune...? [Please, let it be ok...] ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 23 Jan 1984 07:42:36-PST From: decwrl!rhea!druid!turner@su-shasta Subject: Interesting Sidelight on Parallax The concept of parallax was well understood at the time Copernicus released his circumsolar theory, with the interesting result that empirical evidence could immediately be shown to disconfirm his theory! The stars were not then understood to be nearly as far away as they in fact are, so the parallax shift expected was greater than the actual -- and it was not observed. (The actual shift was too slight for instruments of the time to detect.) In spite of this fact, Copernicus' theory was quickly embraced by the bulk of the scientific community: it SIMPLY made too much sense. Ptolemy falls on Occam's razor. Examples of this trend in the history of physics abound in the work of Milic Capek, who has a lovely book whose title I'll scrounge up if anyone wants and can't find it for himself. Does this belong in the Physics list (wherever that is)? Well, SF folk might cast an eye over current science for possible cases of ill-measured data mischievously disconfirming delicious hypotheses. -- Jim Turner, DEC CPU/Systems Mfg @ ACO, CDN addr PARSEC::TURNER ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jan 1984 11:20 EST (Tue) From: Gregory Faust Subject: STL travel, parsecs, etc. Although the discussions about vacuums, parsecs, etc. that have appeared on this list of late have been somewhat redundant and remedial, they still constitute more of a (and a better) discussion of physics than has appeared in net.physics within the past two months! Keep up the good work! Greg ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 26-Jan SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #20 *** EOOH *** Date: 26 Jan 84 1501-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #20 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 26 Jan 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 20 Today's Topics: Books - Bova & Chalker & Schmitz & Wolfe & Cats in SF & Wombats in SF, Films - Favorite Movies & A Boy and His Dog, Television - The Apple Macintosh Ad (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - A Universal System of Units ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 Jan 84 8:53:28-PST (Tue) From: ihnp4!ihuxs!okie @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Quickey Book Review: "Voyagers," by Ben Bova I forgot about THE STARCROSSED. I loved that book, especially after having read PHOENIX WITHOUT ASHES and learning the background that inspired it. So that's three books by Bova that I've liked. I still haven't liked anything else, though... Would anyone happen to know where one might find a copy of THE STARCROSSED? I'd like to add it to my shelf. Thanks, B.K. Cobb ihnp4!ihuxs!okie ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jan 84 11:40:11 EST (Thursday) Subject: Re: Chalker is a total hack author From: Chris Heiny Cc: JACOB@CMU-CS-C.ARPA Well, I don't know about hackness, but the thing I find most irritating is Chalker's attempts to 'scientific'. My two favorite (2) occasions are: > "steam combustion" (fuel crisis solved! most two year olds know water doesn't burn (except if it's in the Cuyahoga)) > "liquid(!) magma" on the surface of a planet (as if magma is anything other than liquid (my geo profs used to beat me with hematite if I made this mistake); and once it's on the surface, it's lava) It was especially amusing to find vulcanism on the Wellworld: isn't the whole thing a giant computer with a thin veneer of planet? Maybe that's how it gets rid of its waste heat... Chris ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jan 1984 10:33:15-EST From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX Subject: James Schmitz certainly didn't die in Campbell's era; JWC died on July 11, 1971, while I remember seeing Schmitz's obit in LOCUS within the last couple of years. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jan 84 1:25:17-PST (Mon) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Some Gene Wolfe Trivia Re Borges and Wolfe (Bruce Smith, UNC-Chapel Hill): Here is what Wolfe has to say about Borges: Like the undines, Baldanders is a giant who is still growing. I took his name from Jorge Luis Borges's THE BOOK OF IMAGINARY BEINGS. It isn't one of Borges's best books, but that has never stopped me from stealing from it disgracefully. (Anyway, second-rate Borges is still very good.) In his article on Baldanders, Borges credits the name to one Hans Sachs (1494-1576) of Nuremberg, then states, 'Some ninety years after Sachs's death, Baldanders makes a new appearance in the last book of the picaresque-fantastic novel by Grimmelshausen, THE ADVENTURESOME SIMPLICISSIMUS (1699).' Were Sachs and Grimmelshausen real? Is there actually a such a book as THE ADVENTURESOME SIMPLICISSIMUS? I have no idea. Borges is capable of making up much better books and authors than anyone can find in libraries; for examples, read 'The Approach to Al Mu'tasim' and 'Pierre Menard, Author of Don Quixote,' both of which are to be found in his FICCIONES. (If you do not get a copy of that book, if you fail to read those stories, you will never be sure that I am not making up Borges, a literary effort worthy of the Nobel Prize.) [From THE CASTLE OF THE OTTER, pp. 46-47] Wolfe's final parenthetical remark is of course trying to imply that Borges should get the Nobel Prize for inventing Pierre Menard... I have in fact heard of Grimmelshausen -- readers of John Le Carre may recall that the book which poor George Smiley forgets at the club at the start of TINKER, TAILOR, SOLDIER, SPY is an old edition of Grimmelshausen. Re THE URTH OF THE NEW SUN (Jeff Duntemann at Xerox, Wombat at UI): The latest word I have on Wolfe comes from the January LOCUS. The article says that (a) Wolfe has finally quit his job as an editor of PLANT ENGINEERING MAGAZINE and is going to be a full-time writer, (b) he has spent the last year or so writing a new novel entitled FREE LIVE FREE which has not yet been sold to a publisher, and (c) '... I've got the fifth book of the New Sun in first draft, but I haven't done anything on it for months. I plan to pull it out eventually and do the final draft. Comparatively little of the book takes place in the Urth of the Commonwealth. A lot of it takes place in space... The temptation is... to get away from [writing about Urth], because I know the place pretty well and it's time to go and explore a new place.' Isn't LOCUS wonderful? On the home front, I gave my younger brother a full set of THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN in paperback for Christmas, hoping he might like it but without much optimism, and to my surprise when I stayed at his apartment in DC during the Uniforum conference last week, I found that he was well into THE SWORD OF THE LICTOR and apparently enjoying it. When I left he was working on SotL on the couch while his friend was attempting THE SHADOW OF THE TORTURER on a chair. Will wonders never cease? Reviews for THE MAN IN THE TREE by Damon Knight, COURTSHIP RITE by Donald Kingsbury, SOMERSET DREAMS by Kate Wilhelm, FEVRE DREAM by George Railroad Martin, RIDDLEY WALKER by Russell Hoban, NO ENEMY BUT TIME by Michael Bishop, and others in a later posting. Donn Seeley UCSD Chemistry Dept. RRCF ucbvax!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn 32 52' 30"N 117 14' 25"W (619) 452-4016 sdcsvax!sdchema!donn@noscvax ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Jan 84 18:13:06 pst From: allegra!scgvaxd!4ccvax!GSILBERBE@Berkeley Subject: Another Cat Story "Schrodinger's Cat" by Ursula LeGuin. It's in her collection THE COMPASS ROSE. --Glenn Silberberg ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 18 Jan 84 17:19:01 PST From: tekig!philj.tektronix@Rand-Relay Subject: Re: wombats in SF Well, I know of one SF book with wombats in it. The book is 'Charles Fort Never Mentioned Wombats'. It is about strange occurences at AussieCon (Australia). You see, Aliens only show up on Earth when there is an SF convention there, so they can blend in with the (costumed) crowd . . . Many Fans who show up at a Con are psychic too. That's why they like SF -- they can identify with the main characters in the books. I wish I could remember the name of the author, because seems like it is a sequel to another book. I want to read *that* book too. Does anyone know the author? This is GREAT SF (well, SF anyway). Wombats are my favorite animals, too. Phil Jansen Portland, Oregon ps WesCon in Portland, Oregon 4/July/84 ! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Jan 84 04:07 MST From: DBarker@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Favourite SF Movies Why has nobody yet mentioned Dark Star - there are so many jokey references in this one, from the title to the final "silver surfer" spoof. The special effects are just fine (even if they were made on a shoestring) - can't say enough good things about it... Deryk Barker. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jan 1984 11:12:13-EST From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX Subject: A BOY AND HIS DOG Harlan Ellison (according to remarks at the [sneak preview] at Discon II (August 1974) and subsequent writings) wrote "A Boy and His Dog" as a largely allegorical scream of rage subsequent to, among other events, Kent State. Janice's reading of the middle-class town as inherently evil doesn't fit the story, in which the town is far more pathetic than evil. The directors of A BOY AND HIS DOG were faced with two choices, given the precise pictures of film: treating the whole thing as a mushy allegory (possibly along the lines of a recent French fairy tale, starring Catherine DeNeuve, in which the fairy godmother arrives by helicopter), or trying to make realistic sense out of the story without throwing out the plot line. (I recall that Ellison was supposed to do the script but clutched shortly after starting, leaving it to other people in the project.) The underground city run by velvet-gloved tyrants is far more plausible---if the middle-American middle class is as witless as described by Ellison they'd have a hard time making a going concern of an underground city. Granted, the original story had more emphasis on violence and less on sex; the section in the [movie house], where a XXX film is just a prelude to the adventure feature, is amusing. But Ellison was less unhappy about the film \when it came out/ (emphasis important, as he's always trying to abandon his past) than about any other film or TV project I've read/heard him talk about. The one thing he really didn't like were some of the dog's lines; the dog was modeled on a pet of his (see "Deathbird") and was [supposed] to be a complete gentleman, without the MCPish traits he shows in the film. ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 24 Jan 1984 11:33:09-PST From: decwrl!rhea!tonto!collins (Robert J. Collins) From: Subject: Guess who directed the Apple Macintosh ad... (Excerpted from The Boston Globe, 24 Jan 1984) APPLE SENDS A MESSAGE TO ITS BIG BROTHER by Ronald Rosenberg Among the many, many commercials crowding Sunday's Superbowl television broadcast, Apple Computer's futuristic shocker introducing Macintosh clearly scored highest in terms of impact. Paying homage to George Orwell's "1984", the 60-second spot views like a trailer for a big budget science fiction movie. That is, until a voice says "On January 24, Apple Computer will introduce Macintosh and you'll see why 1984 won't be like '1984'". The ad cost $400,000 to produce and is part of a $15 million Apple advertising campaign for Macintosh. Reaction to the ad has been positive, said David Prince, broadcast business manager at Chiat/Day, the Los Angeles advertising agency that created the ad. He said Apple spent $880,000 to show it during the third quarter of the football game alone. "I got a list two pages long of calls about the ad," said Prince. "Even film director Steven Spielberg got his secretary to call and find out about it." The Apple ad was produced in London and the bald-headed people are a cult group known as "The Skinheads." The director was Ridley Scott, who also directed such feature films as "Alien," and "Blade Runner." When the ad was first shown to Apple's board of directors they wanted to throw it out, claiming it wasn't appropriate. But Steven Jobs, company chairman and co-founder argued for it. Bob Collins ------------------------------ Date: 24 January 1984 23:17 EST From: John G. Aspinall Subject: Macintosh commercial Would anyone else like to comment on the Apple Macintosh commercial shown during the third quarter of the Super Bowl? I thought it was a gripping visceral 60 seconds of SF, and extremely effective. The Boston Globe reports (not surprisingly) that it was directed by Ridley Scott (Alien, Blade Runner). In case you missed it, it showed a large auditorium filled with zombie-like people with shaved heads, dressed in grey. They are staring at a "Big Brother" figure displayed on a screen who is lecturing them along the lines of "we control the information...". Into the hall runs a blonde woman, dressed in bright red, with police-types chasing her. Before the police get to her, she whirls a sledgehammer around her head and hurls it through the screen. The screen explodes in a blast of light. Then the voice-over explains that Macintosh is coming etc., and 1984 won't be like '1984'. At first I thought the commercial was an ad for a new SF movie. But the one scene went on for too long - movie ads tend to cut among many scenes. My next thought was the Olympics - athletes preserving our freedom etc. But that didn't fit either - Big Brother was wired on a different track. Once the Apple name appeared, it all clicked - if the young woman is Apple, what other computer manufacturer is Big Brother? The deduction - IBM - was almost instantaneous. Did anyone else have this immediate reaction? Did Apple tap a lot of subliminal feelings or is this only the reaction of the computer sophisticates? Has SF produced an archetype? John Aspinall. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jan 84 11:08:53 EST (Thursday) Subject: Re: A universal system of units From: Chris Heiny Cc: Gds@XX.Arpa "Why not have a universal system based on 42, since it is the Ultimate Answer? :-)" Or better yet, 47. Since 47 is the most common number in the universe (or so I am told), it would be much more obvious a constant to those who don't know the Answer yet. Chris PS Is anyone else out there in SFLoversLand acquainted with the 47 theorem? I used to have the proof for above fact, but cannot find it. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 27-Jan SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #21 *** EOOH *** Date: 27 Jan 84 1426-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #21 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 27 Jan 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 21 Today's Topics: Art - Fantasy Art Thanks, Books - Berlitz & J. F. Bone & Philip E. High Bio/Bibliography & Book Request Responses (3 msgs), Films - Dune & Favorite Movies (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Total Conversion Spacedrives & The Answer 42 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 25 Jan 84 16:28:19-PST (Wed) From: hplabs!oliveb!gnome @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Fantasy Art thanks Because of a bad mail-gremlin problem, I doubt that any of my thank-you notes got out of Olivetti through the mail. So, for all of you who sent me Centaur artist references -- Thanks !! Daf for Darlene Tag for Denis Trb for Mark (wants you to call him) Chuqui for Ken Macklin Toms for Barry Anita for Real Musgrave Faunt for Off Centaur Pub. and Richa for Richa I've contacted all of the artists (except Real) and am waiting for samples of their work. I'm always searching for new artists and (relatively serious) centaur art collectors, so keep that data coming. Questions and answers always welcome. Thanks again, Gary Traveis at Olivetti ATC ..oliveb!gnome ..hplabs!oliveb!gnome ..ios!oliveb!gnome ..allegra!oliveb!gnome ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jan 1984 0900-PST Subject: The Philadelphia Experiment From: WMartin at Office-3 (Will Martin) I've been reading The Philadelphia Experiment over the past few days, and my general impression has been disappointment. This is mainly due to unfulfilled expectations. I first saw a reference to it with a one-sentence blurb in the book catalog of one of the mail-order discount book sources, like Publisher's Central Bureau or Barnes&Noble. The description implied that it was an account of a military experiment during WWII in trying to make a ship invisible -- the ultimate camouflage. So I found the book at the local library and put it on reserve, since it was out. When it showed up, and I started reading, I found that it was only peripherally about the experiment itself. I'm about two-thirds through it, and so far it has dwelt on the lives of the authors and the character of the "mysterious witness" whose strange letters (written in multi-colored ink with odd capitalization) seemed to have prompted earlier articles and discussions on the subject (mostly in the UFO press). It is just barely interesting enough to continue, in the hope that it gets better (same as a recent correspondent characterized the Riverworld series). I am now in a chapter in which a scientist named only by pseudonym, and who lives as a secretive hermit in the wilds of Pennsylvania, is revealing essentially boring details of the discussions and meetings amongst the scientific advisory staff to the various naval research organizations during WWII. It all seems enmeshed in an aura of revealed secrets and supernormal forces, which the bits of fact that float to the surface do not seem to justify. I can only wonder what a movie based on this book would be -- since the book spends far more time on the search for the information and on the eccentric behavior of the parties invloved than on the much-more-interesting (to me, at least) details of the actual experiment (if it really happened), would the movie be just another search-behind-the-evil-government-coverup story or would they dramatize the experiment itself? The latter could be worthwhile, but the former is old hat and tedious. In case you care, the "experiment" was supposed to be an effort using some implementation of Einstein's Unified Field Theory and strong electromagnetic fields to render a ship invisible by deflecting light around it. The result was said to be effective, with the minor side effects of teleporting the ship from Philadelphia to Norfolk and back (instantaneously) and driving the crew mad. Hmmm... A few bugs, I guess... So, of course, there was the usual massive hush-hush coverup job and the Navy will never admit that it ever happened, etc., etc., as you have no doubt seen in many writings devoted to the conspiracy theory of history. The name of Einstein has been invoked repeatedly so far in the book as though mentioning it will make any nonsense reputable. Maybe more facts and less mysticism will surface in the later chapters, but I hold little hope. If you like reading the UFOlogists, you might like this; if you don't, you won't. Will Martin PS soMe tHINGS Were not meanT For MAN to KNOw... (underline that line in three colors of ink, and you get the general impression of this book... WM) ------------------------------ Date: 26 January 1984 1438-est From: RTaylor.5581i27TK @ RADC-MULTICS Subject: Request Would appreciate pointers (send to my "home" address, I'll be happy to consolidate replies) to any books, stories, essays, etc by J.F. Bone. I met him in college several (!!) years back. He is an Oregonian (like me!), he was a professor of Vet Medicine (Science?) full-time then and a writer part time. He had planned to retire (that would have been 5-6 years ago), sail, and write. I haven't read anything by him since about 1975 or 1976. He wrote "Lani People" (a novel, his first?) and a short story in Geoff Conklins "13 Above the Night". I had heard that (about 1977) that he had two works forthcoming, but never found them in print. If possible, would like to know how he was doing...he always threatened to sail to Hawaii to visit when I was there.... Thanks in advance. Roz (rtaylor at radc-multics) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1984 10:14:10 EST From: AXLER.Upenn-1100@Rand-Relay (David M. Axler - MSCF Applications From: Mgr.) Subject: Philip E. High Bio/Bibliography From that ever-useful reference source, Peter Nicholls' Science Fiction Encyclopedia, comes the following info on Philip E(mpson) High: (1914--) English writer, variously employed for a number of years before beginning to publish sf in 1955 with "The Statics" for >Authentic Science Fiction<, contributing to several English magazines, especially Nebula, before releasing his first sf novel >>The Prodigal Sun<< (1964), which set the model for most of those to follow. It characteristically superimposes over a somewhat pessimistic rendering of future Earth societies an epic plot, in this case dealing with the return of an Earthman to his native planet, but with his powers enhanced through his being raised by an alien race. Other novels combining social comment and adventure include >>No Truce With Terra<< (1964), >> The Mad Metropolis<< (1966), and >>These Savage Futurians<< (1967). >>The Time Mercenaries<< (1968) interestingly places a 20th century submarine into a time when mankind has lost its genetic capacity to fight; the resurrected crew (who had been artificially preserved) dutifully save mankind from the aliens. Though constrained by his Dystopian sense of the possibilities of Man's future, PEH has been capable of writing enjoyable adventures, though without fully stretching his dark imagination. [entry by John Clute] Other Works: <> (1967), <> (1967); <> (1968); <> (1970); <> (1971); <> (1973); <> (1973); <> (1974). Hope this proves useful to all the High fans out there.... Dave Axler ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1984 23:57 EST From: RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: JACOB@CMU-CS-C.ARPA Subject: Some responses The title you are looking for is "Leading Man", by Lloyd Biggle, Jr. You can find it in The Metallic Muse (Doubleday, 1972). In one respect, you are wrong in your recollection, it is made very clear the patients are really the doctors. James ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jan 84 8:31:49-PST (Tue) From: ihnp4!ihuxs!okie @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Help me find a book.... Hey, I've been looking for that book also! I didn't remember that it was editied by Isaac Asimov also. Please let me know where I can get a copy of this book also. B.K. Cobb AT&T Bell Labs, Naperville, IL ihnp4!ihuxs!okie ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jan 1984 10:03-EST From: Joseph.Ginder@CMU-CS-SPICE.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #18 The book described in sfl v9.18 about the young boys scuba diving and the lizard creature is called "Stranger from the Depths" (or something close to that). It is by Gerry Turner; I remember reading it in a Scholastic Book Club edition many years ago. Excellent juvenile SF; but as I remember, OK for adults also. I'm sure I still have this book somewhere. The vehicle which penetrates rock by melting it was called a "mole". I remember that the lizard creatures in the underground cities all had names with double vowels or some other characteristic spelling depending on which city they were from. [Moderator's Note: Thanks also to the following for providing the same information: Adam G. Mellis (Mellis@mit-mc) Walt Pesch (ihnp4!ihuxp!wbpesch@ucb-vax) Dave Butenhof (decwrl!rhea!orac!butenhof@su-shasta) ] ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 25 Jan 1984 21:25:45-PST From: decwrl!rhea!prancr!saunders@su-shasta Subject: What I read about "Dune" (and wish I hadn't) I read an article about "Dune" in last week's Colorado Springs Sun that gave me a real sinking feeling. It was an interview with Francesca (sp?) Annis, who is supposedly playing Jessica. The sinking feeling started when she began talking about having to shave her head and eyebrows to play a Reverend Mother (!!!) on Caladan (!!!!!!!!!). Nothing the article said later got rid of that feeling. I believe the article was syndicated, so someone else may have seen it. In any case, can anyone out there get rid of this terrible, sinking feeling I've got? Can Frank Herbert (who is supposedly working closely on this film), have permitted such a large (to say the least) change from his novel? I don't seem to remember any bald people in the book... John Saunders, Software Technology Resources, Inc. Waltham, Massachusetts currently on Digital's ENET as PRANCR::SAUNDERS ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jan 84 1:25:27-PST (Thu) From: hplabs!zehntel!root @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Great Movies - (nf) "Being disintegrated makes me ve-ry an-gry!" Berry Kercheval Zehntel Inc. (ihnp4!zehntel!mars!berry) (415)932-6900 ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 27 Jan 1984 05:50:58-PST From: decwrl!rhea!asylum!simon@su-shasta Subject: Dark Star - A favorite movie? In volume 9, issue 20 (1/26/84), Deryk Barker mentioned the movie Dark Star as being a favorite movie. I did not think it was a great movie, but I enjoyed it and am glad to see it get a mention here. The effects were very good and the story very creative. I must admit to not being a SF junkie, but rather someone who enjoys some good SF every now and then and when I saw this movie, I just didn't know what to make of it. I would not rate it fantastic, but worth seeing when it makes the rounds again. Denise Simon, Hudson, Ma ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 25 Jan 1984 19:05:49-PST From: decwrl!rhea!eludom!faiman (Neil Faiman ZKO2-3/N30 381-2017) From: Subject: Total Conversion Spacedrives There is a common assumption in science fiction that a total conversion drive is all you need to achieve virtually unlimited velocities. For example, in E. E. Smith's "The Skylark of Space" (one of the GREAT early space operas), the heroes jaunt all over the galaxy at multi-light speeds on the energy released by the conversion to energy of about 100 lbs of copper. It doesn't take special relativity to kill this pleasant idea. High school physics is good enough. (1) The energy required to accelerate a body of mass m to velocity v is m(v**2)/2. (2) The energy released by the total conversion of a body of mass m is m(c**2). (3) Letting v=c, we see that accelerating a body of mass m to the speed of light, \disregarding relativistic effects/, would require the total conversion of a mass m/2. Of course, really useful stardrives give you 100c or 1000c -- total conversion is utterly useless. (The best solution appears to be perfect storage batteries to power the starships, and power stations at either end (converting asteroids, maybe) to charge the batteries.) - Neil Faiman ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 27 Jan 1984 07:22:29-PST From: decwrl!rhea!spider!lewis@su-shasta Subject: The Answer 42 I have always felt that 42 is not the answer, 42 is the error code! The only reason it took so long to reach this "answer" is that the real answer to "life, the universe and everything" IS life, the universe and everything. It just took the computer a long time to verify that there isn't any more to it than that. As a comic doing a philosopher impression once said: "You may wonder why I have chosen to speak about the Universe... There isn't anything else." As to whether 42 is any better that 47, somewhere I have a "proof" that 17 is the largest number... How about 17? - Suford decwrl!rhea!spider!lewis@Shasta ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 29-Jan SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #22 *** EOOH *** Date: 29 Jan 84 0132-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #22 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 29 Jan 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 22 Today's Topics: Books - Berlitz & Wombats in SF, Films - Star Wars & 2010 (2 msgs) & Favorite Movies, Television - The Lathe of Heaven & The Apple TV Commercial (3 msgs) & "Doctor" Who, Miscellaneous - D&D vs. Lord of the Rings & The Ultimate Authority on the Ultimate Answer ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Friday, 27 Jan 1984 17:16:40-PST From: decwrl!rhea!asylum!simon@su-shasta Subject: The Philadelphia Experiment I too, was greatly disappointed in "The Philadelphia Experiment". Being an Einstein Fan, I wanted to know how the experiment was performed and what the results were. Instead, all I got was a boring account of how the sketchy details were obtained and brief mentions of a few of the side effects of the experiment. This could have all been summed up in a few paragraphs and I could have read something worth reading instead of this book. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jan 1984 1501-EST From: Wang Zeep Subject: Wombat SF I did check the authors for "Charles Fort Never Mentioned Wombats" They are Coulson and DeWeese. MITSFS has a copy, but I have a feeling most others are out of luck. There are a couple of other books by Coulson and DeWeese about fans saving the world. "Now You See It/Him/..." comes to mind. Gee, another sub-class of SF: fans saving the world SF. Any other suggestions? wang ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 84 16:21:38-PST (Wed) From: hplabs!zehntel!tektronix!orca!shark!hutch @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: SW apostasy Perhaps the similarities that are described are DELIBERATE. This might sound strange to some, but there is a device used in writing and in film whereby foreshadowing is used to unify different parts of a story. This might just be what Lucas was doing, or maybe the ROTJ director was just playing around with the concept. Whether or not this comes off well, or is done "right" in any given instance, is an aesthetic question. I am not expert enough in the theory of aesthetics to say whether the ROTJ repetition of themes and visual images is a "good" idea, but it didn't really detract that much from my own enjoyment. Possibly because I hadn't burned out on the original movies first? Hutch ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jan 84 17:00:57 PST From: Douglas J. Trainor Cc: Chandra@U-Illinois Subject: 2010 MGM/UA's production of the film has started, but can you wait until the December release?!? Peter "Outland" Hyames is the producer/director, Richard Edlund is the visual effects supervisor, and Syd Mead is the visual futurist. The sets have been built and the live-action shooting starts next month. I am with the computer graphics group producing great quantities of video resolution graphics. Douglas J. Trainor Video Image Associates Marina Del Rey, California trainor@ucla-cs ...decvax!ucbvax!ucla-vax!ucla-cs!trainor ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 27 Jan 1984 17:27:35-PST From: decwrl!rhea!yoda!horovitz@su-shasta Subject: 2010 Earlier this week I was reading the Boston Herald, and noticed a small article about 2010 the sequel to 2001. They anounced that the lead role was cast to Roy Scheider(sp) of Blue Thunder fame. The character he will play is probably is Heywood Floyd. Anyone who has heard different, it sure would help for you to speak up. n.l.h. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jan 84 8:56:45-PST (Thu) From: menlo70!nsc!chuqui @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: FAVE SF movies I have to disagree with the disagreement on the Planet of the Apes movies. Of the five (or so?) movies, the first one was quite good, the next one was average, and the others were there. The series (remember that?) made Lost in Space look like Emmy material (in fact, it made Star Trek look like Emmy material). Also, I have to admit that I understood 2001:A Space Odyssey before I read the book. In fact, I saw the movie a half dozen times before reading the book, and I understood it each time! Unfortunately, I got a different understanding each time I saw it... :-> >From the house at Pooh Corner: Chuq (a Silly Old Bear) {fortune,menlo70}!nsc!chuqui have you hugged your Pooh today? The difficult we gave up on yesterday, the impossible we are giving up on now. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jan 84 19:59:36-PST (Wed) From: pur-ee!CS-Mordred!Pucc-H.ab3 @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: The Lathe of Heaven It's actually pretty good in its PBS incarnation. The gradual disintegration of reality as George Orr's shrink tries to improve the world is well done, and the Zen aliens are choice. I have no idea who produced/directed it, or who the actors were, but its worth watching at least once. "Go ahead...make my day." Darth Wombat {allegra, decvax, ihnp4, harpo, seismo, teklabs, ucbvax}!pur-ee!rsk ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jan 1984 13:30:50-EST From: Scott.Safier at CMU-CS-CAD Subject: MacIntosh's Big Brother I too saw the commercial on Sunday. As several others have commented, I first thought it was an ad for an SF movie; then an ad for the olympics (I first thought the women was carrying the Olympic torch); then it struck me that it was for Mac. IBM has to be the big brother; afterall, IBM sucked away most of their PC business and is their main competitor. Scott Safier ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jan 84 10:23:54-PST (Thu) From: ihnp4!houxm!hound!rfg @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Macintosh commercial Well, yes it's a brilliant commercial that is probably clear to anyone interested in purchasing either brand. And, yes they may have created an instant archtype. But look at the brilliant archtype they are up against - good old Charlie Chaplin, the antithesis of the machine age man. I always wondered why smart old IBL** chose such a clod-type character (other than to sell computers, I mean). Now I can see that through superior industrial espionage they could see the Apple commercial coming and got there first with the counter: If you are too inept to package a cake or a hat, an IBM-pc will make you rich overnight. -Dick Grantges hound!rfg ** This freudian slip was just too good for me to correct. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jan 84 8:58:51-PST (Thu) From: menlo70!nsc!chuqui @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Macintosh commercial I think that Apple's belief as to who 'Big Brother' really is can be deduced from where the ad was shown. With the exception of the single nationwide ad (on the Superbowl show) that ad showed regionally in the 14 largest markets in the country and Boca Raton, Florida (home of the PC group of IBM). Gives you (and them) something to think about.... chuq >From the house at Pooh Corner: Chuq (a Silly Old Bear) {fortune,menlo70}!nsc!chuqui have you hugged your Pooh today? The difficult we gave up on yesterday, the impossible we are giving up on now. ------------------------------ Date: Fri 27 Jan 84 15:12:15-PST From: Steve Dennett Subject: "Doctor" Who As one who just recently began watching the good Doctor, I have a question for you long-time fans. What field is the Doctor's degree in, and what institution (or person, or whatever) awarded it to him? -- Steve Dennett SRI ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1984 10:24:03 EST From: AXLER.Upenn-1100@Rand-Relay (David M. Axler - MSCF Applications From: Mgr.) Subject: D&D vs. Lord of the Rings: An Historical Approach A recent comment on the discussion about the Shannara books read, in essence, that even "Lord of the Rings" could be considered a D&D adventure in novel form. Sorry, but this is historically impossible, because of the way D&D was actually brought into existence. I don't have the precise dates at hand, but the basic story is this: One of the fairly active wargame fan groups back in the 50's and 60's, with a number of members who were also sf fans, was the one based in and around Lake Geneva, Wisconsin, then primarily known as a summer resort town for wealthy Chicagoans and the home of the first Playboy club. Like many wargamers of that period, this group was very interested in developing systems for running mock battles using scale miniature figures. One of the results of this interest was the development of a system called "Chainmail", which was pub- lished by the members of this group, calling themselves 'Tactical Studies Rules, Inc.'. The Chainmail system had, as an afterthought, an appendix which suggested some ways in which the characters from Tolkien's novels might be brought into this style of wargaming -- a few simple rules for movement and battle, and a few basic incorporations of magic into the (primarily medieval) wargaming system. It was out of the Chainmail system that Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson, two members of this group, developed the game that became the original version of Dungeons and Dragons. Like Chainmail, its rules were distributed by Tactical Studies Rules, which later renamed itself TSR; another similarity was that the rules were published in 5x8 paperback booklets. Later on, assorted things happened which led to a split between Gygax and Arneson. This split, in turn, brought on a major lawsuit and the development of the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons system. The AD&D rules were specifically developed by Gygax to be sufficiently different from the D&D rules that there could be no legal claim by Arneson to their content. (A friend of mine who's Gary's executive assistant tells me that, in fact, Gygax doesn't actually use either system, but a cross between them.) The lawsuit's results didn't totally please either party, but was (from what I've heard) a fairly equitable settlement. Anyway, the early forms of D&D were quite intentionally trying to incorporate Tolkien's concepts, so the similarities twixt books and game are for real. However, the sequence is the reverse of that suggested in an earlier sf-lovers comment. (By the way, the Tolkien estate raised a fuss with TSR about the use of the copyrighted word "hobbit", which is why the game uses the term "Halfling" for critters that are obviously pretty much the same.) --Dave Axler ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 28 Jan 1984 10:38:41-PST From: decwrl!rhea!orac!butenhof (Dave Butenhof) From: Subject: The Ultimate Authority on the Ultimate Answer My, my, such controversy about 42 and the answer to "Life, the Universe, and Everything". You know, there's a very good reason why Deep Thought and the others couldn't discover the ultimate answer. In Douglas Adams' own words from The Restaurant At the End of the Universe: There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. So, maybe they DID find the answer. That would explain why we're in such a mess now ... Dave Butenhof Digital Equipment Corp. 110 Spitbrook Rd. Nashua NH ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 31-Jan SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #23 *** EOOH *** Date: 31 Jan 84 1518-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #23 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 31 Jan 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 23 Today's Topics: Books - Bradley & Farmer & Kurtz & Monaco & Spinrad & Women in SF, Films - Dune & Movie Request, Television - Apple Commercial & Dr. Who (2 msgs) Miscellaneous - 42 vs 47 (4 msgs) & Boskone ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 29 Jan 84 12:15 CST From: Csl Guest Subject: DARKOVER CHRONOLOGY This list was compiled for me by a friend who took a published chronology (by Bradley) and added the newer books in the order that he perceived them from reading them. I can not attest any further to their accuracy or completeness. The chronology of the Darkover books is: Darkover Landfall Stormqueen! Hawkmistress! Two To Conquer The Spell Sword The Shattered Chain Thendara House The Forbidden Tower Star Of Danger The Bloody Sun Winds Of Darkover Heritage Of Hastur Sword Of Aldones / Sharra's Exile (alternate versions of return of Lew Alton The Planet Savers The World Wreckers ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jan 1984 12:28 EST (Mon) From: Gregory Faust Subject: Philip Jose Farmer I too have long wondered why anyone thinks that the riverworld series is worth reading. My feelings about it match the last comment very closely (MUCH too long, with a VERY disappointing ending). I haven't really read much else by Farmer except for "Venus of the Halfshell" which he wrote under the name of "Kilgore Trout". For those not familiar with VotHS, it is a spoof supposedly written by a fictitious SF author character of Kurt Vonnegut's (Kilgore Trout) but, as I mentioned, actually written by PJF. I found VotHS quite funny, if vulgar, and all around enjoyable. Since no-one else has answered the original query about the Riverworld series, I can only hope that no-one out there actually liked it enough to have bothered responding. Greg ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jan 84 00:12 EST From: Andrew D. Sigel Subject: New Deryni Trilogy There is a new trilogy coming out from Katherine Kurtz, author of the CHRONICLES OF THE DERYNI and LEGENDS OF CAMBER OF CULDI trilogies. As of yet, the new trilogy doesn't have a banner title, but it is a sequel to the first trilogy, and takes up about two years later, when Kelson is 16. The three volumes are tentatively entitled THE BISHOP'S HEIR, THE RETURN OF THE QUEEN, and THE QUEST FOR SAINT CAMBER. The first volume is supposed to be out sometime this spring; I don't know if it will be a hardcover or an original paperback. Those interested in Kurtz's writing may want to pick up LAMMAS NIGHT, a WWII/Occult novel (if you must categorize it) that I think she handled very well. (All this information was obtained from the author at the Darkover convention this past Thanksgiving weekend.) ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jan 84 17:02:23 EST From: Dave Subject: RUNES by Richard Monaco Has anyone read the book RUNES by Richard Monaco? Looks like an interesting book but didn't seem interesting enough to buy it without finding something about it first. thanks, ds ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jan 84 08:09:11 PST From: Scott Turner Subject: Spinrad I just read a terrible book by Norman Spinrad called ``The Void Captain's Tale.'' The surprising thing is that the cover has a good review by Gregory Benford on it. Basically what we have here is the tale of a starship captain who becomes involved with his pilot. In this future, starships are guided through the Void in hops of ~4.3 light years by placing a woman (the Pilot) into an electronic circuit derived from some fortuitously available alien circuitry and (electronically) stimulating her to an orgasm. Pilots have mystical experiences during the Jump, and it takes a harsh physiological toll upon them. One of the things that bugged me about the book was the writing style. It is told in the first person by the Captain, and so he uses his ``future'' lingo. Problem is that Spinrad blows this one big -- the lingo is neither believable nor particularly readable. It doesn't fade in after reading -- I stumbled through the whole book. Secondly, the secondary characters' reactions to the Captain are completely unbelievable. Spinrad invents a culture that is completely free on the face of it and completely hidebound underneath. Not only is that unlikely, it is unsupported and unbelievable. I could go on, but I think you get the idea. A poorly written book. Avoid this one. -- Scott R. Turner v.srt@ucla-locus ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jan 84 15:06:10 pst From: allegra!scgvaxd!4ccvax!LSCHWEITZ@Berkeley Subject: women in sf In reading the latest few issues of F&SF, I noticed two examples of female-dominant cultures: 1) Book of The River by Ian Watson This one was serialized in 4 parts in the November-February issues. It deals with a human culture spread along the banks of a large river. The river is divided by a "black current" with strange properties. Only women can sail on the river. Men are only allowed to pass upon it once. Since the culture depends so highly on the use of the river, women are dominant in both governing and social mores (i.e. women sailors cruise the bars for one-night stands). It's a good serial with nice characterizations and an interesting world. 2) Five Mercies by Mike Conner This is a novella in the latest (march) issue. It takes place in a (mostly) human culture ruled by a hereditary matriarchy. LSCHWEITZ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Jan 84 15:12:54 PST From: Peter Reiher Subject: "Dune" movie A recent issue of a free movie magazine handed out in certain LA theater lobbies had an article on "Dune", in particular director David Lynch's view of it. It was a rather information poor article, other than a list of all of the Mexican locations used and special effects experts involved (almost everybody who doesn't work for IL&M, except Douglas Trumbull). It did contain the fascinating tidbit (which I hadn't heard anywhere else) that David Lynch was offered ROTJ, but refused it. Pity, it would have been a much more interesting movie that way. The article concentrates on Lynch's insistence that everything used in the film be unfamiliar to audiences. This would explain the earlier reported head shaving of Francesca Annis, who plays Lady Jessica. The author of the article seemed to have the idea that an evil emperor was the moving force behind the story, which, of course, isn't quite right. (Jose Ferrer is playing the emperor.) I hope the reporter got it wrong, rather than Lynch. The article also mentioned that Ridley Scott ("Blade Runner" and "Alien") was initially set to direct, but was canned because he insisted on concentrating on an incestuous relationship between Paul and Jessica. Just as well. Peter Reiher ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jan 84 08:09:11 PST From: Scott Turner Subject: A Movie I saw an SF film on TV once that I thought was okay. The only scene I remember is one in where the protagonists were standing in some kind of huge underground cave with a line of bodies on slabs stretching off into the distance. One of the protagonists was some kind of guardian, and the bodies were all of the past guardians, or something like that. Strange how one evocative scene can make a movie (or score, for that matter. Would SW have won without such a damn good theme?). Anyone know the title? I thought I'd throw it into the film discussion. -- Scott R. Turner v.srt@ucla-locus ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jan 84 08:09:11 PST From: Scott Turner Subject: MacIntosh Some (trivia) questions about the Apple commercial or someone out there with a VCR and freeze frame: (1) What is on the girl's T-shirt? (2) What is written on the back wall of the large auditorium? -- Scott R. Turner v.srt@ucla-locus ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 29 Jan 1984 15:22:45-PST From: decwrl!rhea!mother!hughes (Gary Hughes - CSSE/MicroVMS) From: Subject: Qualifications of a time lord The name of the travelling time lord is simply "Doctor" or "The Doctor". This is how he is referred to by other time lords in various stories, just as his arch-enemy is simply "The Master". To the best of my memory the name "Doctor Who" has only ever been spoken once in the TV series. In the very first episode (Unearthly Child, 1963) when the people who were to become the Doctor's first companions burst into the TARDIS they call him Dr. Foreman (the Doctor's 'niece' Susan used that surname) to which he responds: "Doctor? Doctor Who?" Gary Hughes ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jan 1984 12:52 EST (Mon) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" To: Steve Dennett Subject: "Doctor" Who The Doctor holds his degree from the University on Gallifrey if I recall correctly. His field is all of them. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jan 84 15:06:21 pst From: allegra!scgvaxd!4ccvax!SFLOVERS@Berkeley Subject: 47 as universal constant While I cannot provide a *proof* that 47, rather than 42, is the basis of reality, I can report that at the Claremont Colleges (CA) the mystic properties of 47 have been understood for decades. *Everything* here points to 47 as the prime universal constant. Drop by and I'll demonstrate -- just take Exit 47 from the San Bernardino Freeway and follow the signs. Craig Berry Harvey Mudd College ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jan 1984 18:55 EST (Sun) From: "Warren J. Madden" Subject: The Ultimate Authority on the Ultimate Answer The Ultimate Question can be found in many places. For example, a question from a Trivial Pursuit card: "How many eyes are there on a deck of cards?" If Scrabble can hold the question, why not a simple deck of playing cards? Warren J. Madden ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jan 84 03:15 MST From: DBarker@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: The Answer 42 The reason the asnwer is 42 is easily discovered in the I Ching, hexagram 42 is Change" characterized (in the Wilhelm translation) as the underlying structure and process of the Universe - need I say more? deryk barker. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jan 84 15:06:10 pst From: allegra!scgvaxd!4ccvax!LSCHWEITZ@Berkeley Subject: 42 vs. 47 As for 42 vs. 47, the Claremont Colleges have had this debate for quite some time. Harvey Mudd, the northernmost college, sides with Adams, whereas Pomona, the southernmost, believes in 47. They cite as documentation the (a) 47 steps to a certain staircase on their campus, (b) a mysterious benchmark-like object with "47" on it and (c) the fact that Indian Hill Boulevard (the exit to Claremont off I 10) is exit 47. My belief is that such trivia cannot compete with THE answer but you 47ists have 5000 misguided underclassmen on your side. LSCHWEITZ ------------------------------ Reply-to: G.CUNYVM=YBMCU@BERKELEY Date: Mon, 30 Jan 84 16:32 EST From: YBMCU@CUNYVM (Ben Yalow) Subject: Boskone For those who may be interested, the person doing fan programming at Boskone 21 is planning a panel on electronic vs "traditional" fanzines. He currently has a number of people who are currently active on sfl, but might be interested in finding a few more. He isn't on the net, but can be reached either by phone or by messages to me. He is: Moshe Feder (212) - 445-4614 I can be reached at BITNET: YBMCU@CUNYVM ARPA: G.CUNYVM=YBMCU@BERKELEY (or maybe YBMCU%CUNYVM.BITNET@BERKELEY) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 2-Feb SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #24 *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Feb 84 1440-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #24 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 2 Feb 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 24 Today's Topics: Books - Recommendations (2 msgs) & Reviews & Fan Fiction, Television - The Questor Tapes & Prototype & Star Trek & The Apple Commercial (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - A Universal System of Units ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 28 Jan 84 13:01:34-EDT (Sat) From: jcc Subject: E.C. Tubb By the way, why is nobody (at least of the SF-LOVERS crowd) seem to be reading good old fashioned cut-em-up space opera such as that in Tubb's Dumerest series (volume 29 just out). I find that Tubb is by far my favorite author of that genre. Besides, he was, I believe, responsible for the pilot for that great TV show - Space 1999. More seriously, the universe that he created for the Dumerest series is fascinating consisting of good (the Church of the Universal Brotherhood), Evil (the Cyclan), and an ever changing cast of characters that lie in the middle. I got hooked on the series through my collection efforts in completing my ACE doubles. The novels are currently being published by DAW and reprinted, I believe, by ACE. Dumerest is the hero of the series and is a man in search of his home - lost Earth. He stowed away on a space freighter as a youth and got lost in the multitude of human settlements in the center of the galaxy. Humankind has forgotten that it originated on one world and earth is only a legend now. Dumerest is being chased by the Cyclan, a group of pure intellects bent on taking over the galaxy, because he has the secret to a drug that will allow an intellect to dwell in the body of another. And so forth ... As I said, I recommend the series. John Cherniavsky jcc.nsf@csnet-relay ------------------------------ Date: 30 January 1984 1532-est From: RTaylor.5581i27TK @ RADC-MULTICS Subject: Comments on Wolfe Last fall when I went to visit my hubby in Korea, I was in the middle of the "Sun-Series" by Wolfe. My husband is not a reader of science fiction, his tastes run towards Louis L'Amour westerns and non-fiction war/political works/histories. He picked up Vol 2 while I was working on Vol 3, and liked it. Although he found it confusing, since he has no SF background, and is not fond of cats or computers. (Outside of my husband and son, they are my three favorite things!) He has decided to read the series from the beginning it has intrigued him so much. I have even gotten him to read Harrison's Stainless Steel Rat series, so there may be hope for him yet! Thus, if you have a friend who likes Louis L'Amour westerns, maybe "they" would like Wolfe and Harrison. Nasty replies should probably be sent to my personal mailbox rather than here (your choice). Roz (rtaylor at radc-multics) ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jan 1984 1721-EST From: John Redford Cc: redford at SHORTY Subject: reviews: Powers, Knight, Kingsbury, Gravel Some brief reviews: The Anubis Gates - Tim Powers Rip-snorting stuff. An ancient Egyptian magician attempts some demon-raising in the 1800's in England. A present-day American captain of industry notices the historical effects of the rite and exploits them to build a time machine. Plus werewolves, a beggar king with a palace in the sewers, body-switching, and Samuel Taylor Coleridge. It gets a bit gruesome at times, but is a real page-turner. The Man in the Tree - Damon Knight What is going on in this book? Why did Knight come out of his long period of silence to write it? It's not that it's badly written, or that the style is difficult; it's just that there doesn't seem to be much point to it. The book seems to be a Christ allegory about this man, Gene Anderson. He grows up in a small town in Oregon, and discovers early that he has miraculous powers. A tragic but stupid accident forces him to flee home at the age of nine with a revenge-seeking sheriff on his trail. He grows up to be a giant some eight and a half feet tall. He becomes a sophisticate, an art-lover and a millionaire. How then can he be a messiah? The wealthy and successful people of the world don't become saviors. The rich don't need saving. A well-written but frustrating book. Courtship Rite - Donald Kingsbury I must confess that I didn't finish this one. About halfway through I stopped suspending my disbelief, and that's fatal. It's set in a lost colony where almost none of the native life is edible. The only nutrition to be had is in the few species brought from Earth, and in human flesh. Cannibalism is practiced at the least excuse. In general, these people seem to be into pain; they have ritual scars covering their whole bodies (done without anesthetic), and select mates with rites involving incredible amounts of torture. I don't buy it. There's nothing in someone else's flesh that you couldn't get just by eating the same things they do. Since the people getting eaten will probably object, it's hard to see how this custom could catch on. The practice of nearly killing a woman you intend to marry also doesn't seem likely. Kingsbury is obviously trying to teach a lesson in cultural relativism. He's trying to set up a society where torture and cannibalism are commonplace in order to prod us into thinking about our own values. It backfires (for me at least) because the society seems to be without internal logic. And since it's a work of fiction, no one has to believe in it anyhow. The Alchemists - Geary Gravel This is the first time in print for a new author. The Empire will authorize the colonization of a planet if the natives cannot be shown to be sentient. The standards are tight, though, and no race yet has qualified. A team is sent to a newly discovered planet to evaluate the extremely-human looking natives. They are not in fact human, but the leader of the team has a plan to stop the steamroller of the Empire's expansion. It's perhaps a bit over-written, but a good first novel. /jlr ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1984 11:34:49 EST From: AXLER.Upenn-1100@Rand-Relay (David M. Axler - MSCF Applications From: Mgr.) Subject: Fan Fiction d SF. Any other suggestions?" The proper name for this sort of thing is "roman a clef" (with an accent grave over the solo 'a'). According to Harry Warner Jr., this is found in the sf field as far back as 1934, and shows up in both fan and pro magazines [c.f., Warner, All Our Yesterdays: An Informal History of Science Fiction Fandom in the Forties (Chicago: Advent:Publishers, 1969), pp. 51-52.] One classic example of this form is "The Enchanted Duplicator", by fans Bob Shaw and Walt Willis (published and re-published in numerous editions, available at any good con...), in which Jophan makes his way through such trials as the Hekto Swamp, the Forest of Stupidity, and the Desert of Indifference on his journey from the village of Prosaic (in the country of Mundane, where else?) to the land of Trufandom, where he reached the Enchanted Duplicator, clutches its handle, and thenceforth becomes a True Fan. In an article entitled "Say, Didn't I See You at Last Year's Worldcon" in the February 1976 issue of Dick Geis' Science Fiction Review (vol 5, #1), author Richard Lupoff cites several other examples of "fan fiction", such as the short stories "A Way of Life", by Robert Bloch, and "Whatever Happened to Nick Neptune", by Lupoff himself. He also mentions several of the novels of Barry Malzberg, which take place at cons and feature authors as their protagonists (or perhaps I should say antagonists). One aspect of this style of writing is the process known as "Tuckerization" (named after its inventor, author & fan Wilson Tucker), in which real sf personalities are included in a story under either their own names or a transparent disguise. It was in honor of this invention that Tucker is the murder victim in Coulson & DeWeese's "Now You See Him/It/Them". Another classic in this sub-genre is the Larry Niven/David Gerrold collaboration, "The Flying Sorcerers". The novel takes place on a planet whose inhabitants are heavily polytheistic. All the gods, plus the heavenly bodies, are named after various sf personalities, and all the female characters are given the first names of noted female sf authors. Among other Tuckerizations in the book, one finds Hitch, the God of Birds, Ouells and Virn, the twin suns, Tukker, the God of Names, Elcin, the God of Lightning, and Rotn'bair, the God of Sheep. This book has recently come back into print; there's also a fairly detailed analysis of who the various names really are in the review of it published in The Alien Critic back in May 1974. A fairly recent example of this is Isaac Asimov's mystery novel, "Murder at the ABA," which involves not only sf personalities, but other varieties of notable from the writing/publishing worlds. Norman Spinrad's non-sf novel "Passing Through the Flame" includes several scenes depicting an sf writer who is almost certainly Harlan Ellison. Most recently, a number of the hexes in the Well World (from Jack Chalker's series) are named after sf authors. --Dave Axler ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jan 84 17:56 EST (Tuesday) From: Stevenson.Wbst@PARC-MAXC.ARPA Subject: Re: TV SF movie featuring bodies on slabs Sounds like "The Questor Tapes", one of Gene Roddenberry's creations. Like "Genesis II" and "Spectre", it was a pilot for a proposed series. Questor (played by Robert Foxworth) was an android built by a scientist (Dr. Vaslovic or something like that) who'd mysteriously disappeared shortly before finishing the job. Someone else finished the construction and found the mag tapes containing the programming for Questor (hence the title). Once programmed, Questor waited until he was alone and did a little further work on himself, after which he looked completely human. He then took off in search of Vaslovic to find out his purpose for existing (that part of the programming had been lost), with the FBI, CIA, or whoever in hot pursuit. Along the way, he acquired a human friend (played by Bradford Dillman, I think) who helped him. He eventually found the cave under a mountain (Ararat, I believe) with the row of bodies on slabs, the last body being Vaslovic's. Vaslovic had just enough remaining energy to tell Questor that each "body" was an android -- a guardian, meant to pass for human and subtly influence world events so as to prevent humanity from exterminating itself via war, pollution, etc. As each guardian wore out, it built its successor, but for some reason I don't remember, Vaslovic's construction of Questor had been interrupted. Note that a similar idea of guiding-humanity-through-the-critical- period-while-wisdom-is-catching-up-to-technology was also used in the Star Trek episode "Assignment Earth", where Robert Lansing was a human guardian, trained by aliens from the future and sent back to 1960's Earth, and Teri Garr was a secretary who discovered his secret. Roddenberry had hoped for a "spin-off" series from that episode. -- Bill Stevenson [Moderator's Note: Thanks also to the following people for the same information: Dave Steiner (Steiner@Rutgers), Carroll@Usc-Isib, Swen Johnson (Sjohnson.es@Parc-Maxc), William Daul (WBD.tym@office-2), Ron Jarrell (Tim%vpivm2.bitnet@berkely), ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!houti!ariel!bethan@ucb-vax, Mary Anne Espenshade (hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!aplvax!mae@ucb-vax), John Platt (platt@cit-20), Don Schmitz@cmu-rl-arm), Matt Lecin (Lecin@RU-blue) ] ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jan 1984 13:43:50 PST From: CARROLL@USC-ISIB Subject: Movie Question - Questor Speaking of androids, did anyone see "Prototype" about a month ago? Made for TV, with ...his name's on the tip of my tongue - the Captain from The Sound of Music... as the fatherly creator of an android named Michael. He took him away when he learned the Army was wanting to use him for purposes he didn't approve of. They had a point, though- they paid for it, it was theirs. He only built it for them. Interesting study of the man, not hard-core SF, but quite good. ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jan 84 14:20:50 PST (Tuesday) From: Chin.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA Subject: Star Trek II question Upon watching Star Trek II on tape the other night, a thought occurred to me: Why couldn't Kirk use the transporter to dematerialize the Genesis device into its component atoms? I know they weren't out of range, since he offered to beam Kahn and survivors over. Am I missing something here? Phil Chin ------------------------------ Date: Tue 31 Jan 84 16:06:08-PST From: Cher Gunby Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #23 Over the past few days, Ridley Scott's name has been tossed about concerning the Apple MacIntosh ad...and yes, he did direct "Alien" however, he did not direct "Blade Runner". His brother, Tony Scott directed it. Both are quite talented and seem to have a geniune "feel" for the sf genre. Credit where credit is due, please.... cher gunby univ. of washington (cher@washington) ------------------------------ Date: 30 January 1984 1532-est From: RTaylor.5581i27TK @ RADC-MULTICS Subject: Comments on Apples I too had the same feelings, impressions, and intuitions as John Aspinall about the Macintosh commercial! I thought someone was coming out with a new SF movie loosely based on 1984, then switched to the idea of Olympics, etc. It's nice to see someone else's mind twists the way mine does! Nasty replies should probably be sent to my personal mailbox rather than here (your choice). Roz (rtaylor at radc-multics) ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jan 1984 11:20 EST (Tue) From: Gregory Faust Subject: A Universal system of units Stop, Stop, your both wrong. Neither 42 or 47 is the right number on which to base the universal system. The correct number is obviously 17; the most random number. What better number on which to base a totally random concept? Greg ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 3-Feb SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #25 *** EOOH *** Date: 3 Feb 84 1242-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #25 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 3 Feb 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 25 Today's Topics: Books - Farmer & Recommendations (2 msgs) & Cats in SF & Women in SF & It's Got To Get Better...., Films - A Boy and His Dog & SW Piracy & Authors and Films & Ridley Scott (2 msgs) Television - Dr. Who & Questor, Miscellaneous - SF Conventions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 1 Feb 84 11:06 MST From: RMann@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: Philip Jose Farmer Well, I liked the Riverworld series with the following proviso: By the time I got to the end of the last book where the secret was finally revealed, I was bored to death and couldn't care less. Farmer should have made at most two books. However, I liked what he did. Basically, this was an adventure-type story started with a SF-F premise. If you were turned off by the development, then that's too bad. I thought it was clever and interesting to "invent" historical characters and give them an interesting personality. Indeed, it was enough to hold my attention and read the books effortlessly. You have to admit that Farmer is not a hack. He is endowed with an excellent imagination, vision, and well above average writing skills. His latest book, whose name escapes me, is wonderful. I mean there are people on this net who like really DULL stuff that I can't read. e.g., the Dragonlovers of Porn, so when someone says he finds Farmer disappointing, it makes me wonder what kind of stuff is necessary to get their attention. ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jan 84 23:02:23-PST (Tue) From: hplabs!hao!cires!boulder!chris @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Sf author recommendations Firstly, thank you all very much for the previous recommendations. Perhaps the ones I'm adding haven't been mentioned since they're such excellent authors, but I'll go ahead anyway... Stanislaw Lem (the most widely read SF author in the world) Best books- Solaris -- dark, fascinating hard-science tale. Tales of the Pilot, Pirx -- Excellent descriptions of the rigors in space travel. Ciberiad -- Incredibly funny, sharp (and occasionally recursive!) stories. and many others. Alfred Bester (No one seems to have heard of him) Best books- The Demolished Man -- Murder, where the police can read your mind... the best of this idea I've seen. The Stars My Destination -- One of the five best Science fiction stories, ever. The Computer Connection -- Also called Extro!, kind of Strange. With a very capital S. NEVER READ THE BOOK BY BESTER `Golem 100'. It is almost Pure Trash. Thanks for your attention, happy reading... Chris Sterritt {ucbvax!hplabs|allegra!nbires|decvax!kpno|harpo!seismo|ihnp4!kpno} !hao!boulder!chris ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 1 Feb 1984 05:44:16-PST From: decwrl!rhea!tonto!alanurm (Len Alanurm) From: Subject: Book recommendation I have recently read a book that I would like to recommend. The book has the unlikely title of "The Saga of Cuckoo" and it is really the two stories "Farthest Star" and "Wall Around a Star" by Frederik Pohl and Jack Williamson put into one book. I would class the stories in the Ringworld Series range of interest. The plot line consists of the dicovery of an object 20,000 light years away by a federation of intelligent races including the newly franchised humanity. Representatives of all races are sent out to study the object called Lambda and known as "Cuckoo" (from expression "Cloud-cuckoo land"). The only method of getting there was to send replicates of beings by tachycon-transporter. These replicates include "edited" persons and "purchased" persons. The replicates also know that they are not the original even though they have all the memories of the original up to that point. The replicates also die again and again and again. There are several subplots that go on and the characters are fairly well developed. Len Alanurm ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jan 84 15:53:18-PST (Tue) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!ciaraldi @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Cats in SF Don't know if I missed this already, but the narrator of "Space-Time For Springers" is a cat. Who's the author? Darned if I can remember, maybe Cyril Kornbluth? Mike Ciaraldi ciaraldi@rochester ------------------------------ Date: 1 Feb 1984 1003 PST From: Alvin Wong Subject: Women in SF Reply-to: RAOUL@JPL-VAX The setting in "Virgin Planet" by Poul Anderson is a female dominant culture. A star ship full of women (evidently prospective brides for colonists on some new planet) crash landed on an uncharted planet. The women reproduce themselves from cloning machines derived from the wreckage of the ship. Obviously the groups that control these machines have great influence. This goes on for several generations until an explorer ship piloted by a single male lands on the planet. The story begins here with his adventures. I read this book some time ago but I still remember the descriptions of the social structures of the various towns the male explorer visited. It's worth a look. Al Wong ------------------------------ Date: 30 January 1984 1532-est From: RTaylor.5581i27TK @ RADC-MULTICS Subject: It's got to get better.... Speaking of books, stories, etc one has continued to read thinking that the hero has GOT to get smarter (I mean, gee, anyone really that dumb would forget to breathe, right?!?)...I read at least a third of Norman's Gor series before I decided the hero was just too dumb to live; of course, if you like Norman's portrayal of women (?are there really women like THAT?).... Another book in that vein (reading, while thinking it's got to get better) was Herber's Santaroga (Sarratoga?) Barrier. As I recall the people raised a fungus or something which was habit forming. It's been a VERY long time since I read it. The two rememberances I have of the book were: 1) there has got to be a "kicker" here, somewhere--just keep reading, Roz, and 2) my visualization of the taste of the "product" resembled the flavor of blue cheese (good quality blue cheese rather than the "other" stuff!). If I missed something good in the book, I have no qualms about someone out there educating me on the item(s)! Nasty replies should probably be sent to my personal mailbox rather than here (your choice). Roz (rtaylor at radc-multics) ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jan 84 13:55:00-PST (Tue) From: ihnp4!inuxc!inuxd!arlan @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: A BOY AND HIS DOG Having been present at the first 2 1/2 times A BOY AND HIS DOG was presented (Discon II, Washington, D.C., 1974) I can say that Ellison acted very happy about the movie, and in fact personally introduced the movie and ol' L. Q. Jones, its producer (he, lately of "Green Acres" infame). The desert and the underground city were CHEAPER than the ruined city of the story, and that's the only reason they were used. And yes, ecofreaks, the whole mess was restored to pristine desolation when the shooting was over. One of the many great things about that movie was the complete and utter failure of the "prediction" about the sequence of Presidents: "Kennedy, Nixon, Ford, Kennedy, Kennedy, Kennedy..." (Of course, with that bunch running things that long, one would expect society to be wiped out in nuclear war, right?) Anyhow, let's not read artsy meaning into strictly commercial decisions. (Harlan's biggest problem that night was that the projectors were crappy, and he wound up showing the first reel twice--once with jumpiness, once with distorted sound track. He gave up in disgust and rescheduled it the next night, rather than trust his ONE PRINT (!) to the terrors of the carbon arc.) Ellison also asked all of us to submit new names, since he was afraid of the namby-pamby original. I submitted THE MUD ABOVE, THE SKY BELOW... --arlan andrews, at&t consumer products, tuesday evening, indpls, in ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Feb 84 11:27:16 EST From: Rick Turner (BRL) Subject: Ref: SW Piracy WE may all have Lensman integrity, but others don't... I just returned from a trip to Germany, and videos of TESB and ROTJ are flourishing over there. I didn't get to see any of them, but I understand they are of terrible quality. rick ------------------------------ Date: 1 Feb 1984 2136-EST From: John Redford Subject: authors and films Can anyone out there think of any SF authors who participated in the making of an SF movie? There's Clarke and "2001" of course, but he's the only one I'm sure of. I have a vague recollection that Heinlein did something for "Destination Moon" and that Wells was involved in "Things to Come", but I'm not sure about either. The technical errors in SF movies are so gross and so common that one would think that the producers would hire an author just for verisimilitude. /jlr ------------------------------ Date: 2 Feb 84 17:29:12 EST From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA Subject: Ridley Scott and BladeRunner To Whomever made the comment that Ridley Scott did *not* direct Blade Runner... No! No! No! I have copies of both the book, massive advertising material, and the script. Ridley Scott directed Blade Runner (and The Duelists, and Alien, and the Apple commercial...and about 10,000 other commercials). His brother, Tony Scott, has directed many commercials and one flop, The Hunger. An examination of credits in the film--or the novel (if you have a post-movie edition of "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?") or any of a number of other sources would have prevented this confusion! Flame OFF!!! Frederick Paul Kiesche III (I HAVE RETURNED!!!!!) [Moderator's Note: Thanks also to Peter REiher (Reiher@ucla-cs for the above informtation] ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 3 Feb 1984 06:42:51-PST From: decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian@Shasta Subject: re: Ridley Scott Two comments about recent postings concerning Ridley Scott: (1) Unless there is something fishy going on, Cher Gunby's claim that Tony Scott, not Ridley Scott, directed BLADE RUNNER is wrong, Wrong, WRONG!!!!! Ridley *did* direct BLADE RUNNER --- it says so in all of my sf film magazines (CINEFANTASTIQUE on down) as well as on my videotape of the movie. His brother Tony Scott, who like Ridley learned his trade filming commercials, has directed only one feature film to date: THE HUNGER, an undeservedly maligned horror film. Tony's style is much like his brother's; without the credits, I might have guessed that Ridley directed it. As Cher said, "Credit where credit is due, please...." (2) I'd also like to "correct" (in quotes because I have no hard proof) another comment made about Ridley Scott by Peter Reiher (quoting a theater giveaway magazine). I had never heard that he was "canned [from DUNE] because he insisted on concentrating on an incestuous relationship between Paul and Jessica". Everything that I have read (which, I admit, could have been "white-washed") indicates that he left the project of his own volition because he was getting exasperated by the "off-again/on-again" nature of the production, and the chance to direct BLADE RUNNER came along. ---jayembee (Jerry Boyajian @ DEC Maynard) (decvax!decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian) ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 31 Jan 1984 17:03:14-PST From: decwrl!rhea!yoda!horovitz@Shasta Subject: Doctor Who In response to the questions about the Doctor, he is has received a Doctrate in all sciences from the accademy of Gallifrey. After graduating, he changed his name to Doctor from his old name which is a mathametical formula that translates to Pheta Sigma(from the episode the Armaggedon Factor). The Doctor does not like to use his skills to practice medicine and relies on other people to do that. Out with the old in with the new. Peter Davison is being replaced by Colin Baker (article in latest Starlog issuse). Baker has been seen in a Doctor Who episode, "The Arc of Infinity", he was one of the guards in the citadel. n.l.h. 'if you are ever stuck between two desicions always make the third' ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 1 Feb 1984 09:46:23-PST From: decwrl!rhea!spider!lewis@Shasta Subject: TV Movie Scott Turner almost remembers The TV movie you are remembering is "The Questor Tapes". Part of the reason you probably found the scene evocative is because this was the pilot of a Roddenberry project and he tends to pay attention to details like background music having character themes and careful scene setting. I thought the opening where the robot wakes up and realizes it must transform itself into the semblance of a human-being and get away the most powerful. Being born and growing up, all in a few minutes! The scene with the predecessor "guardians" (about 30 as I recall) is, of couse, orphan finds father. It had everything: life, death, family tradition, good against evil (including saving the world), even a little love and sex. Whenever one of these lone good guy against the evil organization plots gets instanced, did you notice that all the good guys, who are linked in no particular organization, recognize our hero as a good guy who deserves their help, and proceed to give him/her/it useful advice, helpful tools and one or more pointers to other people who are good guys that might help him/her/it? It seems to be one of those things that is too obvious to mention, that the good guys of the world are all linked together in this chaotic non-organization (like SF fandom or the Usenet...) and that good guys recognize each other because they notice each other doing "things that good guys do" (like helping other people out). As I recall Questor very quickly stumbled onto the right people to help him - perhaps because anyone is at most 5 friendship-links away from everybody else in the world. I wonder if we could figure out whether the human race is really going to make it from the relative efficiencies of a non-organized network vs a set of quasi-competing distinct organizations. Can the set of organizations that interact on neutral principals (eg cost/benefit) be ignored in figuring this model? If the cost/benefit interactors in the net help the bad guys, then apparently, capitalism is bad like the socialists claim. That would be an interesting system to model. - Suford Decwrl!rhea!Spider!Lewis@SHASTA ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jan 1984 2325-PST From: Zellich@OFFICE-3 (Rich Zellich) Subject: SF Cons List updated To: Cons-List update notice list: OFFICE-3 file CONS.TXT has been updated and is now ready for FTP. OFFICE-3 supports the net-standard "ANONYMOUS" Login within FTP, using any password. CONS.TXT is currently 1082 lines (or 53,271 characters). Please try to limit your FTP jobs to before 0600-CDT and after 1600-CDT if possible, as the system is heavily loaded during the day. Enjoy, Rich ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 4-Feb SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #26 *** EOOH *** Date: 4 Feb 84 2354-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #26 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 5 Feb 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 26 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (4 msgs) & Comments on Reviews, Films - Dark Star & Star Wars, Television - The Lathe of Heaven (2 msgs) & The Questor Tapes, Miscellaneous - The Fantasy Trip & FTL and Time Travel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 Jan 84 16:23:41-PST (Fri) From: ihnp4!alberta!ubc-vision!uw-beaver!tektronix!orca!rogerc @ From: Ucb-Vax Subject: Friday, by Heinlein I have not been on the net very long, so I don't know if Robert Heinlein's novel "Friday" has been reviewed here. My wife bought me this book for Christmas and here is my opinion of it: PURE DRIVEL FROM FRONT TO BACK! Pretty strong words from a Heinlein fan. Mugs Away, Mate! - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - \\\\\\ _________ Doctor Dart - - - - - - - - - - >>>>>>----==(_________)----- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ////// ..!decvax!tektronix!orca!rogerc ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jan 84 17:13:09-PST (Fri) From: ihnp4!alberta!ubc-vision!uw-beaver!tektronix!orca!tekecs!patcl @ From: Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Friday, by Heinlein, + more I completely agree with your assessment of "Friday" as drivel, although I must admit that my opinion is based on only the first 1/3 of the book, as that was all I could stomach. I think the worst aspect of the book was the endlessly monotonous dialogue, which displayed such a contrived and pre-adolescent attempt at "cuteness" that it made me wince. Speaking of bad sf, this gives me an opportunity to voice a dissenting opinion on Brin's "Startide Rising", another dog that, to use the words of Dorothy Parker, "should not be tossed lightly aside, but hurled with great force". Probably the worst attempt at depicting aliens that has appeared in many years. Second only to Gene Wolfe in the bad writing catagory. Pat Clancy Tektronix ------------------------------ Date: 1 Feb 84 8:50:40-PST (Wed) From: ihnp4!ihuxq!amigo2 @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Heinlein and Wolfe More flame on Heinlein. Someone, I think it was George Orwell, said that H. G. Wells was "a natural storyteller who has sold his birthright for a pot of message." I think that the same is true of Heinlein. One of the best examples of this is Glory Road, of which the first two-thirds is a rollicking adventure story (I think that it is a bit heavy handed in the sex department, but that is one of Heinlein's major failings generally), but in the last third he gets on his high horse and starts preaching his socio-political message and gets impossible to read. Starship Troopers is another good example of Heinlein's writing merely to preach. Johnny Rico (the hero--Heinlein does not have protagonists, he has heros. See Lazarus Long) is a mere cardboard cutout, not a character, and any novel that has as verbatim lectures from courses in "History and Moral Philosophy" makes me think that the author has other motives than just telling a story. I first read it in college when I took an SF course, and the professor, knowing that I had served a tour as an infantry officer in Vietnam, asked me what I thought of ST. I said, knowing nothing of Heinlein's background, "This author has an intimate knowledge of the military, but he has never served in combat. No one who has ever been in combat could have possibly written this novel. It glorifies war." It turned out that I was perfectly correct, Heinlein graduated from Annapolis in the late 1920s, and was invalided out of the Navy in the mid-30s with tuberculosis. He spent WWII in an R&D job in Philadelphia (for you Heinlein fans out there, I am not trying to disparage him, just pointing out his lack of combat experience, which is important in judging any author who writes war novels). For an antidote to ST, read Joe Haldeman's The Forever War, which I am told was written in answer to ST. I like Gene Wolfe. The Book of the New Sun reminds me very much of James Branch Cabell. Has anyone else noticed this? John Hobson AT&T Bell Labs Naperville, IL (312) 979-7293 ihnp4!ihuxq!amigo2 ------------------------------ Date: 7 Feb 84 21:36:29-EST (Tue) From: ihnp4!alberta!ubc-vision!mprvaxa!tbray @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Heinlein and Wolfe x <-- USENET insecticide I'm always happy to read someone flaming Heinlein. I hate Heinlein so much that I hate myself when I occasionally am trapped in the grip of his once-formidable storytelling ability. Heinlein is a classic example of great talent foundering under the weight of totally corrupt and indefensible ideology. The Richard Wagner of SF. So how can someone with the sense to hate Heinlein also put down Gene Wolfe?!?! If anyone is reading this and doesn't know about Gene Wolfe they should run, not walk, to the nearest bookstore and pick up The Fifth Head of Cerberus, Gene Wolfe's Book of Days, and The Devil In a Forest. Tim Bray ...decvax!microsoft!ubc-vision!tbray ------------------------------ Date: 2-Feb-84 16:33 PST From: Rich Zellich Subject: Re: V9 #24, John Redford reviews of The Man in the Tree, Subject: Courtship Rite I agree with John about The Man in the Tree. I enjoyed it very much, up until the end when it just kind of changed direction and then ended abruptly. There doesn't seem to have been any point to it (none of the preceding sections of the book were required to reach that particular ending point - Knight was telling one story and then stuck the end from a different story on it). I disagree strongly with his comments on Courtship Rite; I think he missed some essential points - one of them being that ritual torture normally had nothing to do with mate-selection. The particular case in the book where that occurred was a unique case, where the man really didn't want to marry that particular woman into his group (he had been ordered to for political and other reasons) and was hoping she wouldn't survive the ritual torture game (the ritual having nothing to do with mate-selecion if I remember right; just a standard challenge that could be put to any opponent). -Rich Zellich ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 2 Feb 1984 13:15:36-PST From: decwrl!rhea!spider!lewis@Shasta Subject: Dark Star The more you know about SF and SF movies the funnier Dark Star is. If you don't know about the scene that a scene in Dark Star is satyrizing, you will certainly not think it is funny and might well wonder what is going on. And since it has a basically nihilistic underlying theme, it could easily stike one as so-so without the knowledge of all the gung-ho heroics it is parodying. I really like the dead captain in the block of ice (preserved in a semblance of alive by elctrical current through his brain) complaining that his crew didn't come to visit often enough. The talking bomb that had to be persuaded to do what it was supposed to and kept spouting philosophy (not quoting, it had arrived at its conclusions independently). I was in stitches! Just the parody of the noble "boldly go where no man has gone before, seek out new life" .... and kill it before it gets dangerous! With the world acting so much like a parody, intentional parody gets harder to recognize every day, but parody Dark Star is! - Suford ------------------------------ Date: 1 Feb 84 8:10:08-PST (Wed) From: ihnp4!drutx!drufl!rjs @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: SW apostasy I asked Hutch to elaborate on the idea of foreshadowing and its use. He responded with the following communique: Sure. What I was saying, (altho on re-reading, not saying well) was that the similarities between the four plot-sublines of ROTJ and the other two Starwars movies MIGHT be uses of the literary "devices" of foreshadowing and underscoring (maybe the wrong term). If you are unfamiliar with foreshadowing, or prefiguring (a similar technique) it basically consists of using a theme or motif early in a story in order to prepare or lead the audience to a later repetition of the motif, which is hopefully a surprising or especially satisfying thing given the later situation. The scene where Vader was "tempting" Luke in TESB was a foreshadow of the (expected) later battle, as was the Saber duel in New Hope. The effect was then especially nice as Luke, previously tempted by the vestigial Dark Side, is able to similarly tempt Vader's vestigial Light Side. Of course, in order to make it all obvious to the critics, we have the Emperor also trying the same tricks to seduce Luke, who is saved largely because he doesn't care about the Emperor and therefore doesn't really pay him a lot of attention. Similar things happen all through. Underscoring is the trick of repeating elements through a story in order to make a point about the character or theme. An excellent example is the very oft-repeated shaving episodes in the Thomas Covenant stories by Stephen R. Donaldson. Covenant's insistence on remaining a leper would have been nicely (and subtly) brought out (IF it hadn't been presented in such a heavy-handed fashion). I recall also mentioning another storytelling device, but I forget now what it was. I did notice something some of my friends missed, in ROTJ. There was a strong element of paralellism in the three ongoing stories of the latter half of the film. Specifically, the ground and space battles reflected the battle between Luke and the Emperor. This was both a nice dramatic touch, making the turn of events seem blacker and blacker, and a rather nice illustration of Lucas' religious assertions about the Force. The actual battle was really between Luke and the Emperor, and the other two battles were reflections and tools of the real combat between Dark and Light. Nice touch. Hutch Thank you, Hutch, for the good words! ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jan 84 15:25:50-PST (Sun) From: ihnp4!alberta!ubc-vision!uw-beaver!tektronix!orca!shark!hutch @ From: Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: The Lathe of Heaven In fact, I have it from unimpeachable sources that Ms. LeGuin actually had considerable say in the development of the movie of Lathe of Heaven, and up til it was released, had the right to simply scratch the entire production completely. Not bad, considering what most film contracts do to the writers. Hutch ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jan 84 22:15:57-PST (Sun) From: decvax!ittvax!sii!mem @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Lathe of Heaven Re: Lathe of heaven. There was the question "did they actually manage to turn that mess into a good movie?" I didn't read the book. I saw the movie, though. Twice. I had to see it a second time because the first time I saw it, my brother brought over a sausage pizza and we saw it together; I couldn't decide if it was the pizza or the movie that made me sick. It turned out to be the movie. It was one of those pretentious, "I think I'll be confusing so they'll think I'm intelligent" stories. The only thing I liked about it was the name of the main character, George Orr, pronounced "Jor Jor". Mark E. Mallett decvax!sii!mem ------------------------------ Date: 3 Feb 84 00:31:26 EST From: MCGREW@RUTGERS.ARPA Subject: Slight Correction: A slight correction to the questor article: the human companion that helped out Questor (and was to be the human advisor to Questor- as-world-supervisor) was played by Mike Farrell (of MASH) fame. Charles ------------------------------ Date: 2 Feb 84 17:35:27 EST From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA Subject: The Fantasy Trip Dear All: Once upon a time there was a Referee who ran a group of crazies through a gaming system called The Fantasy Trip, which was designed by another crazy by the name of Steve Jackson... However, one day, the innocent Referee parked his car in Newark, in a "secure" parking lot in order to pick up some material needed at a bargaining session. When he returned to his car all of his Fantasty Trip materials--including nearly two years worth of notes, maps, adventure ideas, etc.--were stolen. He decided to pursue a Quest. A Quest to replace his Fantasy Trip materials. Unfortunately, Metagaming has gone out of business, and The Fantasy Trip has gone out of print... I am looking for anyone who is willing to part with the "main-frame" sections of Metagaming's The Fantasy Trip. Specifically, I am looking for "Advanced Melee", "Advanced Wizard", "In the Labyrinth", "Referee's Shield", "TFT Codex". I would be willing to pay up to twice the original amount for material that is in *excellent* condition, and various amounts above original price for material in other conditions.... Please reply by way of my home site... Thanks muchly, Frederick Paul Kiesche III ------------------------------ Date: 2 Feb 84 18:13:41 EST From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] Subject: FTL and time travel A few digests back, someone made the comment that no science fiction authors had ever made use of the fact that according to quantum physics, faster-than-light travel automatically implied time travel. One science fiction author HAS made use of the fact: Robert Heinlein in Time Enough For Love. I can't find my copy, so I can't give a direct quote, but I believe the concept is first put to Lazarus when he is still on Secundus. He is looking for something new to do because after 3000 or 4000 years he is finally bored. Someone suggests he go back in time. He says How? Apparently, when one makes a decision of where to come out into the regular universe, one also makes a decision as to WHEN to come out. Lazarus says:"I'll have to think about it; it sounds like making an intentional bad landing." He does use this means to travel back in time, where he has many adventures of an unusual nature which I don't think I can mention on the net. RAH! RAH! RAH! have fun /amqueue ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 5-Feb SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #27 *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Feb 84 0020-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #27 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 6 Feb 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 27 Today's Topics: Books - Damon Knight & LeGuin & E. C. Tubb & A Request, Films - Dark Star, Miscellaneous - E.T. Cuisine & FTL Time Dilation Story & That Old-Time Relligion ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 3 Feb 1984 14:15:09-EST From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX Subject: "long silence" of Damon Knight Knight hasn't been out of circulation that long; THE WORLD AND THORINN came out 2-3 years ago, though I would say (guessing from jrl's pejorative description) that it was similar to his latest (I read that and was \not/ impressed). Knight has been something of an experimentalist for quite some time; I'd also say his greatest/best influence on the field was as a critic and workshop leader rather than as a writer per se. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Feb 1984 18:50 EST (Sat) From: Paul Fuqua Subject: Yet Another Author Recommendation I've noticed one author with a consistent universe who has been left out of the digests I've read: Ursula K LeGuin. Most of her science-fiction novels are placed in the same universe, with an unobtrusive internal chronology that makes them very easy to enjoy "out of order." They are (ordered roughly internally): The Dispossessed Rocannon's World Planet of Exile City of Illusions The Word for World is Forest (novella) The Left Hand of Darkness This is not the order in which they were written, and the connections are very tenuous in some instances. I'm also sure I've forgotten one, I usually do (not the same one each time, either). Other books, not necessarily in the same universe: The Compass Rose (collection) The Wind's Twelve Quarters (collection) The Beginning Place The Lathe of Heaven The Earthsea Trilogy A Wizard of Earthsea The Tombs of Atuan The Farthest Shore pf ------------------------------ Date: 3 Feb 1984 14:02:34-EST From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX To: jcc.nsf@csnet-relay Subject: Dumarest The reason few people are discussing shoot-em-up space opera is that most of us, even the software weenies, have outgrown it. I read all of the Dumarest series in a month or so, back when there were only 12-14 of them, and found them "not \that/ bad, but, Lord, it wasn't good." The polite term for books in which the same scene (cyclan scout interfacing with master brain) appears on p. 37 of every volume in the series is "hackwork". The fact that Tubb wrote a SPACE: 1999 ("marked down from 2001") book is a good measure of his ability. (Yes, I know Blish, Haldeman, and MacIntyre have written STAR TREK books, but (aside from the fact that ST was a great deal better) Blish was dying and the ones by H and V are far better than the rest of them.) ------------------------------ From: FINCH.DLOS@PARC-MAXC.ARPA Date: 3 Feb 84 22:43:25 CST Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #25 I have been looking for a book that I read in the 60's (I think it was 63 or 64). I don't remember the author or the title but I am hoping someone can help me out. I would like to find it and read it again. It starts with a woman riding a bus when suddenly she can read other peoples thoughts. She is amazed by this but it doesn't last long. In the next few days the ability seems to turn on and off as if a switch was thrown. Later in the book we find out that 20 some years previously some aliens landed on earth and did something to several hundred pregnant women so their children would have esp and all the classical mental abilities, but only if certain radiation was present. Naturally they had transmitters to transmit this radiation. These aliens by nature were cowards and they wanted to conquer the earth. But being cowards, they could not bring themselves to do any violent acts so when the children were born they kidnapped them and raised them on the moon. Somehow they missed the protagonist and she was left to save the world. The aliens kept the boys and the girls separate and ignorant of each other. Different radiation controlled each. They had hundreds of boys and a lot fewer girls. Their plan was to send the boys down to conquer the earth and kill all humans then send the girls down later when the boys transmitter was turned off and let them kill the boys. Then the aliens could take over. Seems strange not to remember the title at least after all that, but that's the way it is. Jim Finch Xerox, Dallas ------------------------------ Date: 2 Feb 84 19:29:42-PST (Thu) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!kaufman @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Favourite SF Movies - (nf) But how do I know Dark Star really exists? :-) ------------------------------ Date: 2 Feb 84 13:55:57-PST (Thu) From: ihnp4!ihuxq!amigo2 @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: E.T. cuisine Boiled Vogon Grandmother. Take a Vogon Grandmother, season with salt, pepper, and garlic. Boil for three hours over moderate heat. Serve to the Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Trall. (Serving suggestion: A Pan-Galactic Gargle-Blaster is the preferred beverage with Boiled Vogon Grandmother. It takes the taste away.) John Hobson AT&T Bell Labs Naperville, IL (312) 979-0193 ihnp4!ihuxq!amigo2 ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jan 84 4:04:46-PST (Wed) From: ihnp4!fortune!rpw3 @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: FTL time dilation story - (nf) Your description reminds me of the ending of Joe Haldeman's "Forever Wars" (a VERY good book!), in which (due to the LONG trips involved) if you ever got separated from someone you could never be rejoined (practically speaking) in common times again. There is also a trick ending here, which I will not spoil. Rob Warnock UUCP: {sri-unix,amd70,hpda,harpo,ihnp4,allegra}!fortune!rpw3 DDD: (415)595-8444 USPS: Fortune Systems Corp, 101 Twin Dolphins Drive, Redwood City, CA 94065 ------------------------------ Date: 1 Feb 84 00:04:16 EST From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] Subject: Old-Time Religion Cc: boken@RUTGERS.ARPA, laidlaw@RU-BLUE.ARPA, promish@RU-BLUE.ARPA, Ok folks. After 3 months of waiting, I am finally giving out with the compiled (but not executed) version of Old Time Religion. Judith Schrier, bless her soul, actually typed in the contents of Filthy Pierre's songbook, as did a few other people. However, since she included music, she gets the credit. Topics that are listed are: Aphrodite, Zeus, Buddha, Druids, Zarathustra, Sun Myung Moon, Temple, Jesus, Egyptians, Dagon, Hari Krishna, Bubastes, Cabala, Mogan David, Boris Godunov, Shinto, Castaneda, Azathoth, Parsi, Conan(Onan), Coven, Benares, Thor And Odin, Voodoo, Valkyries, Northwoods, Nirvana, Jehova, Loki, Enlil, Mithras, Yuggoth, Astarte, Hephaestus, Valhalla, Popacatapetl, Gods Of Cargo, Hades REAL OLD TIME RELIGION (to Old Time Religion) (sing verses to same tune as chorus) G G CHORUS: Give me that real old time religion, d d e g g g g e d D G Give me that real old time religion, g g g a a a b a g G7 C Give me that real old time religion, g g a b b b b a g G D7 G It's good enough for me. e d f# a g 1) We will pray to Aphrodite. She's cute but a little flighty In her flimsy see-through nightie, And that's good enough for me. (Chorus) 1a) In the church of Aphrodite, The priestess wears a see through nightie, She's a mighty righteous sightie, And she's good enough for me! (Chorus) 2) We will pray to Father Zeus In his temple we'll hang loose Eating roast beef au jus, And that's good enough for me. (Chorus) 3) We will pray just like the Druids Drinking strange fermented fluids Running naked through the wo-ods, And that's good enough for me. [Alternative third line: Running naked but for wo-ads] (Chorus) 4) My roommate worships Buddha. There is no idol cuter. Comes in copper, bronze, and pewter, And that's good enough for me. (Chorus) 5) We will worship Sun Myung Moon Though we know he is a goon. All our money he'll have soon. And that's good enough for me. (Chorus) 6) We will go down to the temple, Sit on mats woven of hemp(le), Try to set a good exemple [sic], And that's good enough for me. (Chorus) 7) We will finally pray to Jesus, From our sins we hope he frees us, Eternal life he guarantees us, And that's good enough for me. (Chorus) 8) Let us pray to Zarathustra Let us pray just like we useta I'm a Zarathustra boosta It's good enough for me. (Chorus) 9) Let us pray like the Egyptians Build pyramids to put our crypts in Fill our subways with inscriptions It's good enough for me. (Chorus) 10) If it's good enough for Dagon That conservative old pagan Who still votes for Ronald Reagan It's good enough for me (Chorus) 11) We will have a mighty orgy, In the honor of Astarte It will be one helluva party And it's good enough for me. (Chorus) 12) We will sacrifice to Yuggoth We will sacrifice to Yuggoth Burn a candle for Yog-Sothoth And the Goat with a thousand young. (Chorus) 13) We will all be saved by Mithras We will all be saved by Mithras Slay the bull and play the zithras On that resurrection day. (Chorus) 14) We will all bow down to Enlil We will all bow down to Enlil Pass your cup and get a refill With bold Gilgamesh the brave. (Chorus) 15) It was good enough for Loki It was good enough for Loki He thinks Thor's a little hokey And he's good enough for me. (Chorus) 16) We will all go to Nirvana We will all go to Nirvana Make a left turn at Savannah And we'll see the Promised Land. (Chorus) 17) It was good for old Jehova He had a son who was a nova Hey there, Mithras move on ova' A new resurrection day. (Chorus) 18) Where's the gong gang? I can't find it I think Northwoods is behind it For they've always been cymbal minded Yet they're good enough for me. (Chorus) 19) I hear Valkyries a-comin In the air their song is coming They forgot the words they're humming Yet they're good enough for me. (Chorus) 20) There are people into voodoo There are people into voodoo I know I do; I hope you do And it's good enough for me. (Chorus) 21) It was good for Thor and Odin It was good for Thor and Odin Grab an axe and get your woad on And it's good enough for me. (Chorus) 22) If your rising sign is Aries You'll be taken by the faeries Meet the Buddha in Benares Where he'll hit you with a pie. (Chorus) 23) There will be a lot of lovin' When we're gathered in our coven. Quit your pushin' and your shovin' So there'll be room enough for me. (Chorus) 24) There are followers of Conan. There are followers of Conan. They're all followers of Onan Yet they're good enough for me. (Chorus) 25) It could be that you're a Parsi. It could be that you're a Parsi. Walk on by her; you'll get in free And you're good enough for me. (Chorus) 26) Azathoth is in his Chaos. Azathoth is in his Chaos. Now if only he don't sway us, Then that's good enough for me. (Chorus) 27) Just like Carlos Casteneda, Just like Carlos Casteneda, It'll get you sooner or later And it's good enough for me. (Chorus) 28) There are some who practice Shinto. There are some who practice Shinto. There's no telling what we're into But that's good enough for me. (Chorus) 29) We will venerate Bubastes. We will venerate Bubastes. If you like us then just ask us, And that's good enough for me. (Chorus) 30) We will all sing Hari Krishna. We will all sing Hari Krishna. It's not mentioned in the mishna But that's good enough for me. (Chorus) 31) We will read from the Cabala. We will read from the Cabala. It won't get you in Valhalla, Yet it's good enough for me. (Chorus) 32) If you think that you'll be sa-ved, If you think that you'll be sa-ved, If you follow Mogan David, You're not good enough for me. (Chorus) 33) It's the opera written for us. We will all join in the chorus. It's the opera about Boris Which is Godunov for me. (Chorus) 34) There is room enough in Hades For lots of criminals and shadies And disreputable ladies, And they're good enough for me. (Chorus) 35) To the tune of Handel's "Largo" We will hymn the gods of cargo 'Til they slap on an embargo And that's good enough for me. (Chorus) 36) Praise to Popacatapetl Just a tiny cigarette'll put him in terrific fettle so he's good enough for me. (Chorus) 37) We will drive up to Valhalla riding Beetles, not Impalas singing "Deutschland Uber Alles" and that's good enough for me. (Chorus) 38) We will all bow to Hephaestus As a blacksmith he will test us 'cause his balls are pure asbestos so he's good enough for me. (Chorus) Verses 1-7 (omitting 1a) were submitted ( and possibly written by)Dan Ruvin. Verses 8 and 9 submitted by John Redford Verse 10 submitted by John "Out of tune again" Wenn Music and verses 11-33 were submitted by Judith Schrier taken from Filthy Pierre's Song Book. verses 34-38 submitted by cca-unix (whoever that is) Hope it is enjoyed; Further submissions will be welcomed. Thank you One and all!!!!! /amqueue ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 7-Feb SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #28 *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Feb 84 1356-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #28 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 7 Feb 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 28 Today's Topics: Books - Chalker & Heinlein (2 msgs) & Lem & Book Recommendations & Romanes a Clef, Films - Foreign Fantasy Films & Favorite SF Movies, Television - Dr. Who (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Friday, 3 Feb 1984 09:17:04-PST From: decwrl!rhea!spider!lewis@Shasta Subject: Chalker I believe that ALL the hexes in Jack Chalker's Well World series are named after SF people, writers, artists and fans. - Suford (decwrl!rhea!spider!lewis@shasta) ------------------------------ Date: Sun 5 Feb 84 13:17:56-EST From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA Subject: Heinlein's ideologies Most of us seem to agree that some Heinlein books are a lot worse than other Heinlein books. My own list of bad ones includes Starship Troopers, Farnham's Freehold, and Time Enough for Love. For that matter, my list of good ones includes The Door into Summer, Stranger in a Strange Land, and The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. But to what extent does this follow from any of Heinlein's several ideologies? It's not true that a book is bad merely because a specific ideology is the basis for the plot and much of the action, for then TMIAHM would be a lot worse than Glory Road, rather than a lot better. Nor, I think, do I just like the books whose ideology I agree with. Part of the problem may be that sometimes the ideology gets in the way of proper construction, characterisation &c. However, I think it's wrong to speak of Heinlein's "ideology" - I get more than on ideology out of the books, and its not clear to me which if any the author believes or lives by. Perhaps the most consistent motif is the concept of the "competent person" (and Friday is not the only Heinlein competent female - consider Anne in SIASL). That seems more the antithesis to "ideology", which is typically the refuge of incompetents. Robert Firth PS Hands off Richard Wagner. I know he was a socialist, and wanted by the Bavarian police for several years, but in those days socialism was neither totally corrupt nor utterly indefensible. And what have you done as good as Parsifal? ------------------------------ Date: 3 Feb 84 12:10:21-PST (Fri) From: menlo70!nsc!chuqui @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Friday, by Heinlein, + more >I completely agree with your assessment of "Friday" as drivel, >although I must admit that my opinion is based on only the first >1/3 of the book, as that was all I could stomach. I think the worst >aspect of the book was the endlessly monotonous dialogue, which >displayed such a contrived and pre-adolescent attempt at "cuteness" >that it made me wince. I completely disagree with your assessment of "Friday". It's not Hugo material, but I found that it had an aura of maturity and vision I haven't seen in RAH since the Juvenile days (they may have been strident, but they were good and he knew what he was trying to say). What REALLY suprised me was the maturity he had in his sexually oriented material in Friday. Most Heinlein either suffers from an Oedipus or a candystore complex; I found Friday to be realistic about things while still being RAH (a difficult line to tread). >From the house at Pooh Corner: Chuq 'Nuke Wobegon' Von Rospach {fortune,menlo70}!nsc!chuqui Have you hugged your Pooh today? Go, Lemmings, Go! I'm not worried. I gave myself up for dead before we started. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Feb 1984 1954-PST From: KRIEGER@USC-ECLB.ARPA Subject: Lem's "His Master's Voice" Has anybody read this book? Iam having difficulty locating it, and have seen it only in hardback. Any information regarding its content or availability would be much appreciated. Please reply to KRIEGER@ECLB. Thanks, John ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Feb 84 09:39 MST From: DBarker@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Book Recommendations Alfred Bester is certainly not unknown in England (well no more than any SF author is unknown!) BTW the English title of "The Stars My Destination" was "Tiger Tiger", which anyone who has read it will comprehend. There are also a couple of books of his short stories, the titles of which I forget, but they are both excellent. In the same sort of 1950s space opera genre, may I mention Charles L. Harness, whose three novels ("The Paradox Men", "The Rose" and "The Ring of Ritornel") I can heartily recommend, and will submit synopses if I get the time tomorrow. Anyone who enjoys late-40s Van Vogt (particularly the Null-A books) will certainly enjoy The Paradox Men, which takes as its inspiration Toynbee's theories of history (where Van Vogt used Korzybski's theories of General Semantics). The Rose also contains two of the nicest short-stories I know "The Chess Players" and "The New Reality". Even the people who have heard of Bester don't seem to have heard of Harness!! ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 3 Feb 1984 09:17:04-PST From: decwrl!rhea!spider!lewis@Shasta Subject: Romanes a Clef Another Roman a Clef is Rocket to the Morgue. It is borderline SF, also by Tucker (as Wilson Tucker - I think his full name is Robert Wilson Tucker, hence Bob Tucker to his friends and fandom and Wilson Tucker to his readers and publishers). The key to this novel (roman a clef means novel with a key, in the sense that a cipher has a key) is the descendents, publishers and fans of Arthur Conan Doyle. I think it was first published in the 50's. Fan fiction does not, however, mean a roman a clef. It merely means a piece of fiction by a fan, usually published in a fanzine without more than nominal recompense. There is lots of excellent Trek fan fiction, for instance that mundane publishers will probably never touch because it has too much character development (even if the sex is left out...) On the other hand, commercially published fiction by fans is not usually referred to a fan fiction. After all, by being commercially published it has, paradoxically, become "real" fiction or even mundane fiction! Now, is the Starblaze books by Bjo about her 10 Years involved with Trek fan writing because it is ABOUT fans? (It is non-fiction...) A purist would say: no. It is about but not within fandom because it was published by a commercial publisher for the world at large rather that by a fan publisher for an audience within fandom. The adjective "FAN" is comparatively restrictive. It means not merely having to do with lovers and/or readers of SF. It means within the subculture of FANDOM. Its antithesis, non-fan or mundane is not purely pejorative, since any person can become a fan by attending a few cons and/or reading a few fanzines. (I suspect subscribing to LOCUS no longer counts as LOCUS has become a profit making -just barely- concern and thus no longer TRULY FANNISH) A few words are in order about "faanish" or "faaanish" a word that becomes more emphatic as "a"s are added to the middle. It describes the more fanatic and exclusive involvement with the subculture, specifically, the fanzine portion. It is occasionally used by more convention oriented fans as a pejorative implying impractical and narrow-minded, just as "convention fan" is occasionally used by fanzine fans to imply money- grubbing and insensitive. Then there is the term "media fan" used usually as a pejorative, to imply illiterate, non-contributing or even trouble-making. The next seminar in the series will cover: neo-fan, fringe-fan, costume fan, fake fan and neo-pro. subscribe now! available for trade or "the usual" ( I think this means SASE plus a couple extra stamps )... - Suford (decwrl!rhea!spider!lewis@shasta) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Feb 84 00:01:40 PST From: Peter Reiher Subject: foreign fantasy movies People have been suggesting their favorite sf movies. I'd like to tell you about a couple of extremely interesting fantasy movies. Both are foreign, and subtitled, but don't let that put you off. I feel almost compelled to tell people about these films, even though the chances that they will ever get to see them are slim. One of them plays about one night a year in Los Angeles, and perhaps occasionally in cities like New York and San Francisco. The other plays almost nowhere, for reasons which will be made clear. Should you have any influence with convention film schedulers, I strongly recommend the first, at least. First, one of my favorite films of all time, "The Saragossa Manuscript". It's a Polish film, based on a collection of Polish stories. The film concerns a young Polish nobleman of the mid-18th century. Receiving an appointment as an officer in a Spanish cavalry regiment, he makes the mistake (?) of taking a shortcut through a notoriously haunted region of Spain. After a bizarre night in a haunted inn, he meets a hermit who tells him a strange story. Then he meets another traveller who tells him a strange story. Soon a gypsy is telling a strange story, in which someone tells a strange story, in which someone tells a strange story... The fun really begins when the layered stories start to interact. (The recursion fans among us should be particularly amused). The film is loads of fun, with battles, duels, rogues, intrigue, romance, almost everything you could want. I never miss a chance to see it. The only drawbacks is that the film is in black and white, when it really should be in color, and that it is in Polish, with subtitles. A truly audacious film, not at all the dour social realism one expects out of Poland. The other is a German film called "Munchausen", a version of the legends of the famous German liar. His fantastic stories include riding a cannonball; a trip to the moon; a servant who can run from Constantinople to Vienna, and back, in an hour, with time for a nap on the way; a ring of invisibility; and more. The film is in very attractive technicolor, and, unlike most German films, is handled with a very light touch. Over all, it compares well with "The Thief of Baghdad", though its effects are a little weaker. There is only one little problem: it was made in 1943. There is absolutely no trace of Nazi philosophy in the film, or militarism, or racial hatred, or even Teutonic/Nazi paraphenalia, though there is a "modern" section which would have allowed plenty of room for it. None the less, it is a relic of the Nazi period. As a result, it is almost never shown anywhere. Whether or not this is the correct policy to take with Nazi art is an interesting question. Students of film and sf/fantasy film completests are advised to watch carefully for it, for it won't screen long, or often. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs ------------------------------ Date: 5 February 1984 12:03 EST From: David A. Adler Subject: ACROSS THE SEA OF SUNS (with SPOILER) & THE LAST WAVE In regard to favorite SF movies, I would like to add THE LAST WAVE. Unfortunately, I saw it a while ago and don't remember details about who directed it, when it was made, etc. The movie is about Australian aborigines who still have full tribal rites in the cities. Through some legal process, someone gets involved with the aborigines, finds out that these tribes stil exist (when they weren't thought to), and gets involved with history of the tribes. He starts dreaming that different things are happening, and when he is brought to a secret temple, finds that these dreams were documented many years ago by the aborigines. All in all a very confusing movie, but worth seeing. Another movie that I have never watched but always come around during Christmas on television is SANTA CLAUS CONQUERS THE MARTIANS. Anyone ever watch it? DAdler ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 5 February 1984 13:38:38 EST From: Bob.Walker@CMU-EE-FARADAY Subject: Dr. Who TV scripts? I was wandering through the Walden Books store in a local mall, and encountered, in the SF section, something on the order of 30 Dr. Who books. Never having seen them before, I took a closer look, and it appears that they are novelizations based on the TV scripts, sometimes with the names changed (ie, the "Moonbase" episodes became "Dr. Who and the Cybermen", or something similar), but the names usually stayed the same. The books were published by "Target" publishing company, and had a sticker on the back saying that they were being distributed by some company in NJ (I don't have one of the books handy - I can bring in details if anyone's curious). The price was $2.50 per book, and the series also included a 2-volume "Programme Guide", also title "What's What and Who's Who", listing the episodes each season, glossary of terms/places/characters, and the different Doctors' companions cross-referenced by episode. Has anyone seen these before? How accurately do they follow the scripts (alas, we don't receive "Dr. Who" here in Pittsburgh - the only time I get to see it is during extended visits to my in-laws in Washington, DC)? - bob walker (walker@cmu-ee-faraday) (bob.walker@cmua) ------------------------------ Date: 2 Feb 84 8:37:49-PST (Thu) From: ihnp4!stolaf!umn-cs!digi-g!brian @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: "Doctor" Who The Doctor's degree is never specified. He got it on Gallifrey, home world of the Time Lords. When he is asked what he is a doctor of, he dodges the question. (signed) Merlyn Leroy ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 8-Feb SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #29 *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Feb 84 1408-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #29 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 8 Feb 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 29 Today's Topics: Books - Benford & Brin & Heinlein & Leiber & Robinson & A request, Films - Obscure SF Films & Star Wars, Television - The Lathe of Heaven (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - 1984 Space Lectures & Munchausen & Old-Time Religion ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 February 1984 12:03 EST From: David A. Adler Subject: ACROSS THE SEA OF SUNS (with SPOILER) & THE LAST WAVE I just finished reading ACROSS THE SEA OF SUNS, by Gregory Benford (Timescape, $15.95), and thought I would talk about it. It has a similar setup to that of TIMESCAPE (written in 1980), in that the chapters alternate between time. Most of the book follows the travel of a scientific space unit searching for planets with intelligent life from the years 2056 to 2064. The rest of the book deals with life on earth in the year 2061. Unlike TIMESCAPE, the two parts are thinly tied together, with earth sending messages about what is happening back home and the scientists making connections between what they see around planets who have had intelligent life forms. Parts of the book were a little slow going and drawn out, but other sections made the old rocking chair rock a little faster. The book also contains similar scientific knowledge that TIMESCAPE did, intricately describing the passage through a ramscoop or studying the chemical makeup ofanimals. Overall, I'd give the book about a 7 to 7.5 one the 1 to 10 scale. *** SPOILER *** For those more interested in the plot. The space lab is looking for intelligent life and planets that earth can expand to so it is harder for humans to be wiped out. They find that every planet that had technologically advanced life forms, or that could ever develop technologically has a "watcher" that makes sure that no technology is ever developed. Meanwhile, back on earth, someone(thing) has seeded the oceans with life forms known as Swarmers and Skimmers. The swarmers attack ships, even supertankers, and sink them, destroying the world economic system. The skimmers are intelligent forms, and sound similar to dolphins (but they aren't). They talk to survivors of shipwrecks who somehow manage to live on the ocean without being eaten by swarmers. The situation gets worse and soon the swarmers start moving onto the land. This causes international tension, finally resulting in a nuclear war. The swarmers take over the land and the skimmers and humans chosen by the skimmers now live on the water. The earth gets its own watcher, and earth is out of the picture. The space lab tries tinkering with a watcher by trying to blow it up with their fusion drive. The watcher lashes out with something similar, but more powerful than, a solar flare. The ramscoop is burned out, and the spaceship is stuck in space. DAdler ------------------------------ Date: 3 Feb 84 12:10:21-PST (Fri) From: menlo70!nsc!chuqui @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Friday, by Heinlein, + more >Speaking of bad sf, this gives me an opportunity to voice a >dissenting opinion on Brin's "Startide Rising", another dog that, >to use the words of Dorothy Parker, "should not be tossed lightly >aside, but hurled with great force". Probably the worst attempt at >depicting aliens that has appeared in many years. Second only to >Gene Wolfe in the bad writing catagory. I haven't read Brin yet, but having listened to him at Baycon, I am looking forward to it. Also, I don't know how you can consider Gene Wolfe a bad writer. It looks like we simply disagree on what makes writing good or bad (which makes neither of us right or wrong, just different). I seem to like everything you don't, which is why they publish such a variety of books these days. Somewhere out there, every book you consider trash has someone who likes it. It may only be the author or editor or publisher, but that person exists. >From the house at Pooh Corner: Chuq 'Nuke Wobegon' Von Rospach {fortune,menlo70}!nsc!chuqui Have you hugged your Pooh today? Go, Lemmings, Go! I'm not worried. I gave myself up for dead before we started. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Feb 84 19:14:01-PST (Fri) From: ihnp4!houxm!hou2a!argo @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Flaming at Heinlein WHAT!!! "I will fear no evil" will last?!!! That has got to be one of the worst books I have ever read, and as I've read a good deal of Heinlein's other works, that's saying something. I thoroughly enjoyed about the first 50 pages of this book, up until Johann Smith became Joan, at which point it degenerated into, uh ... well, I can't think what it became, but certainly not a good book. One thing I have noticed about Heinlein is his absolute inability to handle anticlimax. For that matter, he doesn't do an especially good job with the climax either, but it is his ridiculously long and boring anticlimaxes that truly stand out. To give him his due, what very little he deserves, I have found some of his short stories have hit the lower bounds of mediocrity, and one or two actually approach decency, but that is as far as I will go. Contact has been made, Andrew Garrett ------------------------------ Date: 6 Feb 84 19:39:27 EST From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] Subject: Spacetime for Springers Was written by Fritz Leiber. There are at least two other Gummitch stories that I know of: one in The Book Of Fritz Leiber ( I can't remember the title of the story), and one in the most recent Anniversary issue of Fantasy and Science Fiction, titled (I believe) "Cat Hotel". Gummitch is now mentor to a kitten named Psycho. bye /amqueue ------------------------------ Date: 3 Feb 84 11:39:48-PST (Fri) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!aplvax!eric @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Flaming at Heinlein I can't knock the author who introduced me to all of the wonders of science fiction. While I could try to defend him against his many critics, I would rather point to an essay entitled "Rah, Rah, R.A.H" by Spider Robinson. I have forgotten where it was first published, but it is contained in the second Callahan's book, and is an excellent defense of both the man and the author. eric ...!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!eric ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jan 84 5:54:46-PST (Mon) From: decvax!dartvax!kenv @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Title Request Can anyone give me the titles of additional works by the following authors? 1)'Doc' Smith I have read the: Lensman series, the Skylark series, the Subspace series. 2)l. Ron Hubbard I have only read Battlefield Earth. Any other good ones by him? Thanks in advance, Ken Varnum (..decvax!dartvax!kenv) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Feb 84 00:02:26 PST From: Peter Reiher Subject: obscure sf films As a footnote to the discussion of "best" sf films, I'd like to mention a couple that may not be all that good, but are of some interest and don't get shown much ("Dark Star" is playing on every street corner, by comparison). If you know they exist, you'll be less likely to miss their rare appearances. There's a little known Soviet sf film called "To the Stars By Hard Ways" (it sounds a lot better in Latin). It was apparently someone's idea of the Soviet answer to "Star Wars". Better they hadn't heard the question. A Soviet space crew discovers a crippled space ship with one survivor inside. This survivor is in suspended animation of some kind, which is finally broken. World scientists discover some interesting things about her, and eventually find out where she came from. It's a planet being threatened by ecological disaster brought on by pollution. The generous Earthmen send off a ship to investigate, discover that it's indeed true, and fight a final action involving large quantities of slimey goo. I can't really recommend it on any grounds, but it's sort of interesting that the Soviets are wasting their time on this kind of trash. (There is a long history of Soviet sf film. A while back I saw a Soviet sf/allegory film from the silent era, called "Aellia", or something like that. Well, it had interesting costumes, at least.) "Things to Come" is a fairly good sf film based on H. G. Wells novel. It was made in the 1930s, in England, and has been mentioned briefly on the list. Here's your chance to see the young Ralph Richardson as a militaristic warlord. The effects are extremely good, for the time. See London terror bombed, five years before World War II. And let us not forget "Metropolis", Fritz Lang's silent classic of an oppressive future society. Admittedly, it looks rather melodramatic (OK, extremely melodramatic) today. None the less, the sets are fantastic and the scenes of the creation of the robot are still impressive. I have heard of, but not seen, a 1930s Hollywood film about digging a transatlantic tunnel. I would appreciate hearing from anyone who has actually seen it. There are a few other early Hollywood SF films, including a musical, of all things. Most of them are curiousities, true, but they show that science fiction did not first enter film in the 1950s, as some believe. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs ------------------------------ Date: 6 Feb 84 15:19:02-PST (Mon) From: hplabs!zehntel!dual!fortune!grw @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: It *is NOT* Endor! - (nf) The planet called "The Moon of Endor" is indeed a moon, a satelite of another planet, called "Endor". However, Endor itself was blown to bits in some ancient cataclysm leaving the moon orbiting empty space. I've pointed this out before, but here it is again. -Glenn ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 6 Feb 1984 18:57:28-PST From: decwrl!rhea!regina!augeri@Shasta Subject: Letter to the Editor Someone* in SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 9 issue 22 aroused my curiosity about who produced/directed the movie The Lathe of Heaven. Here for the sake of posterity are some facts on the movie: Produced and Directed by David Loxton and Fred Barzyk Teleplay by Roger E. Swaybill and Diane English based on the novel by Ursula K. LeGuin Main characters: George Orr played by Bruce Davison Dr. William Haber played by Kevin Conway Heather Lelache played by Margaret Avery * The someone was: From: pur-ee!CS-Mordred!Pucc-H.ab3 @ Ucb-Vax I am a new subscriber to the Digest and I don't yet know how to extract a user's name from the ARPA net gibberish that appears in a From: heading. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Feb 84 13:20:03-PST (Thu) From: ihnp4!stolaf!umn-cs!digi-g!jel @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Lathe of Heaven Though I had the (perhaps) misfortune of seeing the movie first and reading the book second, I thought that the dreams in the movie were more creative and symbolic than those in the book. Whoever devised the dreams of the movie is to be congratulated. John Lind, DigiGraphic Systems Corp. 10273 Yellow Circle Drive Mpls MN 55343 news, mail: ihnp4!stolaf!umn-cs!digi-g!jel USnail : 1515 Brook Ave SE, Mpls MN 55414 ------------------------------ Date: 7 Feb 1984 1612-PST Subject: 1984 Space Lectures From: Alan R. Katz To: bboard@USC-ISIF, bboard@USC-ECL, space-enthusiasts@MIT-MC This year, the Organization for the Advancement of Space Industrialization and Settlement (OASIS/L5) will be presenting a monthly lecture series entitled "Beyond 1984--Visions of the Future." The first of these lectures will be: Space and the Nuclear Arms Race Dr. J. Peter Vajk (Author of "Doomsday has been Cancelled") The lecture will begin at 7:00 pm on Saturday, Feb. 15 at the California Museum of Science and Industry's Kinsey Auditorium. Admission is $2.00 for OASIS/L5 members and students and $3.00 for all others. Future lectures in the series include: Ray Bradbury, March 27, at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory George Butler, April 28, back at the Kinsey Auditorium on Space Stations Kraft Ehricke, May 19, at Rockwell International's DEI room Gene Roddenberry, July 17, at the Glendale High School Auditorium, as a part of the Spaceweek celebration honoring the 15th anniversary of the first moon landing. (NOTE: For the Roddenberry lecture, advanced purchase of tickets will be required). The OASIS/L5 phone machine is at (213)374-1381. In my opinion, the lecturers for this series are among the best and most interesting speakers on Space. Tell your friends. Alan (Katz@ISIF) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Feb 84 18:46:30 PST From: kalash%ucbingres@Berkeley (Joe Kalash) Subject: Munchausen He is NOT german, Baron Von Munchausen is Czech. Joe Kalash (1/4 czech) ------------------------------ Date: 5 Feb 84 1:26:36-PST (Sun) From: pur-ee!ecn-ee!kechkayl @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Old-Time Religion - (nf) A question to anybody on the net. As a member of the Midrealm (relatively new member) I have heard unofficial history about the "Gods of Northwoods." Is that one verse a reference to them? Nigel the Voluminous ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 9-Feb SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #30 *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Feb 84 1338-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #30 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 9 Feb 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 30 Today's Topics: Books - Boucher (2 msgs) & Harrison & Heinlein, Films - The Last Wave & The First Spaceship on Venus, Television - The Apple Commercial & Dr. Who (2 msgs) & The Lathe of Heaven (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Feb 1984 19:03:29-EST From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX Subject: ROCKET TO THE MORGUE Is by Anthony Boucher, after whom Bouchercon (annual mystery fans convention) is named. (I was passed a copy by my mother, who skirts SF but is an avid mystery fan.) My first guess would have been that it was written and set in the 30's, but I recall a Heinlein simulacrum (all of the authors' names are disguised, sometimes with real pseudonyms (e.g. Don Stuart, which Campbell used)) so I'd have to say 40's. ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 9 Feb 1984 05:23:28-PST From: decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian@Shasta Subject: ROCKET TO THE MORGUE Suford! I'm shocked! Surely you know that ROCKET TO THE MORGUE was written by Anthony Boucher, not Bob Tucker! --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard) UUCP: (decvax!decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian) ARPA: (decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian@Shasta) ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 7 Feb 1984 11:41:14-PST From: decwrl!rhea!spider!lewis@Shasta Subject: "Answers " to Starship Troopers Bill, The Galactic Hero by Harry Harrison is a scene by scene reply to and parody of Starship Troopers. The Forever War is as much a "reply" to Vietnam as it is to Heinlein. Haldeman still has some shrapnel from that, which is why The Forever War isn't as funny as Bill, the Galactic Hero. When it first came out, Bill, the Galactic Hero was very funny. In the meantime the world has started to look like Harrison's parody universe here and there... Suford ------------------------------ Date: 7 Feb 84 4:04:43-PST (Tue) From: hplabs!zehntel!dual!fortune!rpw3 @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Re: Friday, by Heinlein, + more - (nf) Let's hear it for "Friday"! I was beginning to worry about him after "The Number of the Beast" faded into unintelligibility (started fine, then got weeeiiirrrddd), but "Friday" brings back the good old secret agent stuff of "Gulf" and "The Puppet Masters" (updated to scary plausibility, if you've been reading the noises about seccesion lately, see Naisbitt's "Megatrends"). My one gripe is that the ending is just a bit lame. But that sudden cut away from the action to a look back from a future quieter time in the lives of the characters is something RAH has used/abused more than once (see "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress", "Glory Road", and even "Puppet Masters", for examples), neh? [Hmm.. was the mishmash at the end of T#otB the beginning of the trend we've seen with Niven ("Engineers") and Asimov ("Foundation's Edge" and "Robots of Dawn") on the part of authors to try and make ALL of their various plot lines come together? Is T#otB a satire, then? I mean, just this morning Lazarus was complaining to me that R Daneel was probably really a Pak protector, or vice-versa, and knew nothing of psycho-history beyond what Jorj X. McKie had brought back from Dosadi.] Rob Warnock UUCP: {sri-unix,amd70,hpda,harpo,ihnp4,allegra}!fortune!rpw3 DDD: (415)595-8444 USPS: Fortune Systems Corp, 101 Twin Dolphins Drive, Redwood City, CA 94065 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Feb 84 13:38:29 PST From: Peter Reiher Subject: "The Last Wave" "The Last Wave" was directed by Peter Weir, an Australian. It came out in the mid 1970s (American release 1978, at a guess), and starred Richard Chamberlain and Gulpilil, an aborigine. Weir also directed "Picnic at Hanging Rock", a mystery/period piece with occult overtones, concerning a group of Victorian school girls who disappear on a mysterious Australian mountain. If you liked "The Last Wave", you'll probably also like "Picnic at Hanging Rock". His other films include "Gallipoli", which dealt with an ill fated WWI expidition, and recently "The Year of Living Dangerously", about the fall of the Sukarno regime in Indonesia during the early 60s. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs ------------------------------ Date: 8 Feb 84 20:11:01 PST (Wednesday) From: LFeinberg.es@PARC-MAXC.ARPA Subject: The First Spaceship on Venus--Slight SPOILER A classic 1960 S.F. movie which is quite often overlooked is "The First Spaceship on Venus". While this film is often dismissed (my "Guide to T.V. Movies" gives it 1 1/2 stars out of 4), it is actually a neglected masterpiece. In this film, a group of scientists flies to Venus, where they find the remains of an ancient, dead, civilization. Those scenes on Venus inside the ruins of this civilization are a surrealistic masterpiece. Highlights include the scenes where the astronauts are chased up the spiral ramp-like building by the flowing lava, the scenes inside the green and glowing pit ( a brain? a computer?) on the planet, and the bizzare reversal of the ending. Like "Dark Star", this is a low budget cheapy, and has some real flaws that are hard to overlook. But for capturing the bizzare and numinous essence of surrealism on screen, this movie cannot be equaled! Anyone else remember this one? Lawrence ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 7 Feb 1984 15:12:58-PST From: decwrl!rhea!sunfun!stewart@Shasta Subject: submission for SFL Digest A while back, someone asked what was on the shirt the runner wore in the Apple "1984" video. Adweek says that shirt bears the Macintosh logo. The article also points out some things already mentioned in sfl, like Big Brother = IBM ("It's not too pedantic to point out that the pervading color in Big Brother's den is blue, as in IBM blue."). Adweek also says Apple spent $800k on Super Bowl airtime, $400k on production, hired 200 extras, and built a seven story set in England. Check the January 30 issue for more... John Stewart ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 7 Feb 1984 21:58:41-PST From: decwrl!rhea!coors!vickrey@Shasta TARGET is a British publisher. They have been printing Dr Who novelizations for about 10 years, and there are over 80 in print. As far as I can tell, they follow the shows fairly closely. Sometimes they are a little better, and sometimes a little worse. The two-volume program guide is one book of plot synopses (my edition only covers the first 18 seasons) and a cross-reference of characters, places, things, and stuff. It is extensive, but not complete (at least I failed to find a few of the things I looked up). Up until about a year ago these books were very difficult to get in the States. SF bookstores usually carried a very limited number and you could sometimes pick them up in the Dealer's Rooms at cons. The average price was usually three to four dollars. With the current popularity the show now enjoys mainstream bookstores are beginning to carry more. "Star Wars is adolescent nonsense; Close Encounters is obscurantist drivel; Star Trek can turn your brains to puree of bat guano; and the greatest science fiction series of all time is Doctor Who! And I'll take you all on, one-by-one or all in a bunch to back it up!" This is not my opinion! In 1979, Pinnacle Books, based in Los Angeles, published 10 of the novelizations virtually intact. Harlan Ellison wrote one introduction for all 10 books, from which the above is extracted. Ellison seems to unashamedly, unabashedly, unapologetically LIKE Dr Who; the introduction is good reading. "This type's not really my forte..." susan ------------------------------ Date: 8 February 1984 0753-est From: RTaylor.5581i27TK @ RADC-MULTICS Subject: Dr Who in Philadelphia I am behind about 1 week in reading past issues...been out of town. Just received a note from the Dr Who fan club that Tom Baker will be in Philadelphia on 11 & 12 Feb. It is presented by Creation and billed as the Philadelphia Doctor Who Convention. Anyone interested in further info let me know. If there is enough interest, I suppose it could be posted to the bulletin board!? Roz ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 8 Feb 1984 07:19:01-PST From: decwrl!rhea!mother!hughes (Gary Hughes - CSSE/MicroVMS) From: Subject: Dr. Who books The Dr. Who books are published in the UK by Target and vary considerably in quality. They are adaptations from the original stories and in most cases should NOT be considered definitive. Occasionally the author is unable to resist the temptation to embelish, adding extraneous 'non-facts'. Some are written by the original scriptwriters and are generally quite good (although they don't take long to read). Several have been written by Ian Marter who played Harry Sullivan during the Baker period. I started to read them to fill in gaps where stories were banned in Australia by the censors (or more precisely given a rating that did not permit them to be shown during the kid-vid hours). The ABC (the antipodean BBC) used to screen Dr. Who at the same time as the commericial networks' news programs and no one seemed too concerned about the effects of that on the kiddies. Getting back to the books - Target started publishing during the Baker period, about the same time as Dr. Who started appearing on US TV. Recently they have been publishing earlier stories from the Hartnell and Troughton series as well as several from each of the current series. The two guidebooks are interesting but contain a lot of detail errors. For episode guides etc. you would be advised to obtain fanzines and other publications from the various Dr. Who fan clubs. Occasionally, the BBC publishes Dr. Who material. The most recent was a color magasine in conjunction with the anniversary special (The Five Doctors) which was on sale in bookshops in Australia. I have seen some original scripts, but I have no idea whether they were obtained by fair means or foul. Does anyone out there know if such things can be purchased? Lastly a trivia question on Dr. Who books (I do not know the answer to this). A long time back, several Dr. Who books were published in hardback. I read them about 1965, I guess. They were: Dr. Who and the Daleks Dr. Who and the Crusaders Dr. Who and the Zarbi Does anyone know who the publishers were? I have heard that they have since been reprinted by Target but have not verified it myself. Gary Hughes ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 7 Feb 1984 11:47:29-PST From: decwrl!rhea!spider!lewis@Shasta Subject: Lathe of Heaven Mark Mallet's problem is that HE is confused. The ideas presented in Lathe of Heaven are genuinely confusing. Le Guin has no need to put on a pretentious intellectual pose, the problem of reality is a genuine problem. I should probably reread the story and see the movie again before I say this but I BELIEVE that the story LEAVES IT UP TO THE reader/viewer whether to interpret the whole business as a dream in one or more minds in Seattle after the bomb drops. The big problem in the movie was how to distinguish the "dream" sequences from the "real" sequences. They finally decided that since the idea was that the participants couldn't distinguish which was which (at least until afterwards), and any "effect" they could use would be hokey and distracting, they decided NOT TO DISTINGUISH THEM. This does make the film confusing. The point of the story, however, is that distinguishing between reality and dream IS confusing and sometimes not possible. Perhaps Mallett is really objecting to the chaos this kind of idea does to the PLOT. Depending on what you think was REAL, you get a different plot: The bomb dropped on Seattle and destroyed everybody there. The bomb dropped on Seattle and two survivors changed history because their minds WOULD NOT accept this horrible thing. The bomb dropped on Seattle and one survivor made such a paradoxical mess out of time with the mental abilities this created in another survivor, that these good guy aliens had to come and straighten it all out. Et cetera. What do YOU think happened? - Suford ------------------------------ Date: 6 Feb 84 8:05:09-PST (Mon) From: ihnp4!ihuxq!amigo2 @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Re: Lathe of Heaven movie -- too bad - (nf) Some years ago, when Roger Duffey (where have you gone, Roger?) was moderating sf-lovers and it was part of the ARPAnet (the only way someone on the UUCPnet could get to it was through a system at Berkeley), I mentioned that the Lathe of Heaven reminded me of an H. G. Wells story called The Man Who Could Work Miracles. The Wells story was about a man who could make things happen just by wishing them. He finally tries to duplicate the feat in the book of Joshua (making the sun stand still in the sky) but forgets to take into account the law of conservation of angular momentum and manages to remove earth's atmosphere and everything not literally nailed down. He finally wishes he were back at the point before he realized he had this power and that he never discovers it. Didn't Roger Zelazny also write a short story along these same general lines? John Hobson AT&T Bell Labs Naperville, IL (312) 979-0193 ihnp4!ihuxq!amigo2 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 9-Feb SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #31 *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Feb 84 1510-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #31 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 9 Feb 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 31 Today's Topics: Books - Herbert & Lafferty & Wolfe & Book Reviews, Films - Authors and Films & Ridley Scott & Dark Star & Star Wars, Television - Dr. Who (2 msgs) & The Lathe of Heaven (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Fanspeak & Lecture Correction & FTL and Time Travel (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Feb 1984 18:14:28-EST From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX To: rtaylor@radc-multics Subject: THE SANTAROGA BARRIER Since nobody else seems to have taken this up, I'll see if I can explain why this book doesn't belong on the trash heap. Despite his rabid conservatism, Frank Herbert is distinctly interested in drugs and their effects on comprehension (perhaps his conservatism is what keeps DUNE from being FLOW MY TEARS, THE HARKONNEN SAID). The notion of a drug that will somehow make the scales fall from one's opponents eyes is a seductive one; Brunner's THE STONE THAT NEVER CAME DOWN is one of the better combinations of story and argument on this; Herbert works in a different frame (comprehension of time) in DUNE, but there's a distinct similarity between the driving factors of tSB and tStNCD (note Brunner's analogizing of VC to the (argued) pep-pill effect of the non-conversion of urea in [primates], while the Santarogans describe jaspers as "consciousness fuel"). tSB, although it is written in third-person singular (everything from the viewpoint of Gilbert Dassein), does not exist primarily for a simple linear plot (first he did this, then that, and now he's doing the other) but for the reactions of Dassein (and of the other characters to him) as he tries to understand jaspers without taking significant doses of it. In tStNCD the decision on whether to spread the drug is begun in reason and made in fright, but there's never a serious suggestion that the VC is not a good thing, while Herbert from the beginning gives a more balanced view (it's almost a libertarian one, in that the most sinister thing is the way the Santarogans seem to unite and lose their individualities in confronting the outside world, while their refusal to be swept into the commercial orbits of various moneyed interests (although it's the reason Dassein is there) is seen as praiseworthy---which is odd because Herbert, when he spoke at Boskone XVI, seemed more like a doctrinaire conservative)). Certainly there are plenty of things happening---Dassein seems accident-prone---but the happenings aren't there to advance the plot but to heighten the tension as Dassein tries to balance the rational and passional desirability of Santaroga (personified by Dr. Sorge and his daughter Jenny respectively?) against its sinister qualities. It could be argued that the inexplicable happenings make tSB a fictional setting of a ghost story but the apparent supernaturalism is simply lack of understanding (e.g., Dassein is invited by Dr. Sorge to expand S's research on the quantifiable neurological effects of jaspers). I won't argue that tSB is a "great novel" (however you want to define such) but it is not as pedestrian as space opera (and its contemporaries) and does not have the conspicuous flaws or difficulties of many of the works that here have been praised and damned, both vigorously. Two final notes: tSB was serialized around 1967 and may have been written significantly earlier; there's a late-50's/early-60's feel to it, more obvious than in many space-oriented stories (tolerance of interracial marriage is marveled at, Gilbert and Jenny barely get to the handholding stage outside of a particularly stagey moment), which may put off current readers. And I don't know whether Herbert deliberately gave his lead a name similar to Gilbert Gosseyn, the hero of THE WORLD OF NULL-A, but it's certainly possible considering how much they both deal with a quantum change in mental abilities (thought tSB is a far better book). ------------------------------ Date: 6 Feb 84 17:08:23-PST (Mon) From: decvax!bbncca!keesan @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Raphael Aloysius Lafferty What is Lafferty up to these days? Writing. I'm currently in the middle of "Annals of Klepsis" (Ace, August 1983), which is run-of-the-mill Lafferty, which means nothing to you unless you've read other Lafferty. I think he has something out in hardcover and/or limited edition since then, but no names come into my head. Morris M. Keesan {decvax,linus,wjh12}!bbncca!keesan keesan @ BBN-UNIX.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 6 Feb 84 18:26:49-PST (Mon) From: decvax!dartvax!karl @ Ucb-Vax Subject: A personal Wolfe for the Northeast. Those of you in the northeast may be interested in the following: I read in Analog today that Gene Wolfe will be the "Guest of Honor" at the next sf convention in Boston on the 17-19 of February. ( As I type this, two weekends away. ) The address for more information is: Boskone XXI NESFA Inc. Box G MIT Branch PO Cambridge, Ma. 02139. ------------------------------ Date: 7 Feb 84 12:51:41-PST (Tue) From: menlo70!nsc!chuqui @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Dragons of Light/ Many Colored Land A couple of quick reviews of things that have made it through my inbox: Dragons of Light, anthology edited by Orson Scott Card (Ace 2.95) Rating: 3.5 on a scale of 5 (more if you like dragons) This is an anthology of stories which have the dragon as the continuing theme. Like most anthologies, it is uneven, some of the stories are quite good (my favorite was Ice Dragon by G.R.R.Martin, followed closely by 'The George Business' by Zelazny and 'A Drama of Dragons' by Craig Shaw Gardner). There are a number of lesser stories as well, and some that look like the dragon was an afterthought for the sale (this was especially apparent in 'One Winter in Eden' by Michael Bishop). If you like stories about dragons, this book is definitely for you (I also believe there is at least one companion volume). If you don't, then this is a real average anthology and you might or might not like it. The Many-Colored Land by Julian May (DelRey, $2.95) Rating: 1 on the scale of 5 I've had the pleasure of talking with Julian May at a number of conventions now, and I don't believe I've talked to a more charming SF author (actually, person in general) in a long time. It was with great expectations that I finally got through my in-pile to the Julian May book. *sigh* *alack* *alas* I never finished it. To tell you the truth, I don't know that I ever started it. The first 120 pages are poorly put together (and entirely too volumous) introductory material, setting up the history and people for the story to come. By the time I hit page 150, she had started the story, but I had simply lost interest in things. She is still a charming woman, but some editor should have mentioned that those 120 pages of introductory material could have fit very nicely into about 20 pages. Maybe in a month or so I'll start from page 121 (where the book should have started) and see if it gets any better. chuq >From the house at Pooh Corner: Chuq 'Nuke Wobegon' Von Rospach {fortune,menlo70}!nsc!chuqui Have you hugged your Pooh today? Go, Lemmings, Go! Everyone wants to make love to their mother, Harold. What I can't understand is why you want to make love to your grandmother! - Harold and Maude Camelot! Camelot! Camelot! It's only a model... Shhh! ------------------------------ Date: 6 Feb 84 11:07:36-PST (Mon) From: ihnp4!ihuxq!amigo2 @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: authors and films Didn't Asimov write Fantastic Voyage? While this is not an SF movie, Harlan Ellison wrote the screenplay for The Carpetbaggers (a film which, if you have not seen it, you should keep it that way). John Hobson AT&T Bell Labs Naperville, IL (312) 979-0193 ihnp4!ihuxq!amigo2 ------------------------------ Date: 5 Feb 84 19:32:54-PST (Sun) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uiuccsb!eich @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #23 - (nf) Ridley Scott did so direct Blade Runner. Tony Scott directed only one film, The Hunger. They both started directing commercials. Ridley Scott did the highly-stylized, effects-laden Channel no. #xxfoo ad with the airplane shadow ascending the Transamerica Pyramid, accompanied by "I don't want to set the world on fire". Brendan Eich uiucdcs!eich ------------------------------ Date: 5 Feb 84 20:08:35-PST (Sun) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!ctvax!uokvax!andree @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Favourite SF Movies - (nf) Yes, the dialogue with the bomb was good. The MOVIE was good. It should definitely be rated with the best. "Root for the bomb!" Subject: Dr. Who - Good-bye Tardis From a newspaper article by Charles Catchpole from England: "...Dr. Who's famous police box time machine is set to fade away forever. BBC chiefs plan to axe the battered blue box--which has housed the Tardis for 20 years--because young viewers do not know what it is supposed to be. Dr. Who producer John Nathan-Turner said yesterday: "Police boxes are a thing of the past. I think the last one in England went about four years ago and a whole generation of children has grown up believing the box to be a Tardis and nothing else." He plans to phase out the police box during the next series of Dr. Who..." From the article it looks like the blue police box shape for the Tardis will disappear sometime in 1985. For those unfamiliar with English terminology -- a series in England is the same as one TV season in the U.S. Michi Wada ------------------------------ Date: 5 Feb 84 20:08:51-PST (Sun) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!ctvax!uokvax!andree @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: 'Doctor' Who - (nf) The Good Doctor (no, the other good doctor hasn't trademarked that phrase yet), being a time lord, has is degree in horology. It was issued to him by The Acadamy. He got through in the 51'st percentile, on his second try. about the book was that I didn't like it. Watching people flail around for far too many pages, trying to find a solution that was obvious two pages after the problem was stated, does NOT make a good book. The only reason I waded through the rest of it was in hopes that LeGuinn had a suprise in store. I lost. "Clem Clone: back to the shadows again!" In that case, she failed. The reason I said > about the book was that I didn't like it. Watching people flail > around for far too many pages, trying to find a solution that > was obvious two pages after the problem was stated, does NOT > make a good book. The only reason I waded through the rest of it > was in hopes that LeGuin had a surprise in store. I lost. You thought the point of the story was to find a solution?? Scott Stevens AT&T Consumer Products Indianapolis, Indiana, USA UUCP: inuxh!stevens ------------------------------ Date: 8 Feb 1984 19:07:37-EST From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX To: cca!decvax!decwrl!rhea!spider!lewis@CCA-UNIX Subject: fanspeak "the usual" tends to include trade, as well as locs (Letters of Comment), and contribution of articles or artwork. . . . ------------------------------ Date: 8 Feb 1984 1950-PST Subject: Correction on lecture From: Alan R. Katz To: bboard@USC-ISIF, bboard@USC-ECL, space-enthusiasts@MIT-MC The date for the Peter Vajk lecture SHOULD have read Feb. 25 (Saturday night) at 7:00 pm. The rest of the dates are correct. Sorry for the typo! Alan ------------------------------ Date: 6 Feb 84 6:19:03-PST (Mon) From: ihnp4!ihuxs!okie @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: FTL and time travel Larry Niven has also dealt with this subject. In *A World Out of Time*, a man from the past is awakened from frozen sleep in another body (hmmm -- time travel of another kind?). In his future, he finds that he is in the body of a criminal that must repay his debt to the State. They make him a starship pilot (rammer) and send him out with a ship on a long mission to "seed" worlds for future life. Well, he ends up stealing the ship and heading for the galactic core -- but at one point he has to depend on his ship's computer, which is intelligent. The computer puts him into an FTL course around the black hole at the core (you have to understand a bit about the cosmology of Niven's galaxy for this) and they wind up back on earth a few million years later than when he left. Also, the computer informs the pilot after the fact that they could have arrived home only 70,000 years later had the orbit around the black hole been changed slightly. It's an interesting concept. B.K. Cobb ihnp4!ihuxs!okie ------------------------------ Date: 6 Feb 84 11:16:31-PST (Mon) From: ihnp4!ihuxq!amigo2 @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: FTL and time travel Another author who made use of the time dialation in speeds close to light was Poul Anderson in Tau Zero. Ursula K. LeGuin, in several of her stories (The Left Hand of Darkness and Semmlys'[sp?] Necklace, to name just two) has her NAFAL (Nearly As Fast As Light) drive cause time dilations. In fact, the ending of Semmly's Necklace depends on it, and the fact that Semmly has not aged very much during her voyage, while two generations have passed on her world while she was gone. John Hobson AT&T Bell Labs Naperville, IL (312) 979-0193 ihnp4!ihuxq!amigo2 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 11-Feb SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #32 *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Feb 84 0117-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #32 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 11 Feb 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 32 Today's Topics: Books - Brin & Heinlein (2 msgs) & Hubbard & Niven & E.E. "Doc" Smith, Films - Fantastic Voyage (2 msgs) & The First Spaceship on Venus (2 msgs) & 2010 & A Trivia Question & Dune & Tying Up Loose Ends, Miscellaneous - More Real Old Time Religion ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 Feb 1984 16:16:56-EST From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX Subject: aliens in STARTIDE RISING Rather than flaming about who is a good or bad writer (personally I don't find Wolfe interesting at novel length but enough people, including the Boskone chair who's my regular bridge partner, do that I don't argue the matter any more) I'd like to ask Pat Clancy (publically, since I can't decipher his usenet address usefully) just what he considers a believable alien? Others with strong opinions are invited to chime in. I'll start with my own opinion: the aliens in STARTIDE RISING are entirely plausible---not only plausible, but realistically and distinguishably varied despite the fact that most of them are presented only in brief sketches. Some of them may seem less than three-dimensional, but remember that they are mostly fanatics, mostly being presented under conditions of considerable stress, which tends to cause many facets of personality to disappear in a general haze of aggression. Maybe you're simply offended by the thought of mankind not even being considered an equal by the aliens? ------------------------------ Date: 9 Feb 84 19:43:44 EST From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] Subject: Robert Heinlein- a supportive flame! Thank you, Rob Warnock! I was beginning to think that all other Heinlein fans were willing to stick their head in the sand and let others disseminate their own opinion, no matter how wrong it is. The Number of the Beast is entirely a parody of Heinlein himself! The last chapter is a parody of Science Fiction conventions in general, with almost all of the people there being a character from one of his books. I got sort of irritated when Lazarus showed up, it seemed a real cop-out, but it was really the only way to get him into the convention.....if he wasn't running it, he wouldn't have bothered to show up. Spider Robinson's essay was first printed, I believe, as a review of T#otB for whatever magazine he was/is doing book reviews for. In his book, Expanded Universe, Heinlein himself says that the philosophies espoused in his books do not necessarily have anything to do with his own personal philosophies. As far as I can tell, his main philosophy is Homo Sapiens Uber Alles! Since most of his books are set in a situation where people are trying to survive in a hostile environment, obviously there must be more humans to accomplish this, which means pregnant women, who are therefore helping in the holy cause of survival. This is the only part of his books that I gag on, since I don't see anything great in being preggie. However, I am willing to concede that a man may find this extraordinarily fascinating, especially one who has lived through a war when more bodies were needed. In any case, I think Friday could have been better; the return to the style of his juvenile books left it sort of dry. It is not my favorite by him; but it isn't the worst by far. Whatever bouts of senility he has had, and there have been some, due to disease and medication, neither Friday nor The Number of the Beast are the products thereof. Any flamers out there, please reply to me directly, but don't expect me to reply; I don't have the ability to mail to the sundry nets. RAH!RAH!RAH! /amqueue quint@ru-blue.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 9 Feb 1984 1702-PST Subject: Heinlein From: Alan R. Katz Robert Heinlein is an excellent writer and all of his books (except the last two) are great. Anyone who says otherwise is clearly wrong, so there!! (This is fact, not opinion). Alan PS I hope my postion in this is not too ambiguous. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Feb 84 17:20:32 EST From: Morris M. Keesan Subject: L. Ron Hubbard As far as Hubbard is concerned, I don't think he ever wrote anything good, although his dianetics/scientology "non-fiction" is sometimes amusing. On the other hand, if you liked "Battlefield Earth" for whatever reason, you might try "Ole Doc Methuselah", which was published some time in the 70's by DAW. It's a collection of short stories from the pulps. "Ole Doc" is a space doctor, of the same archetype as Murray Leinster's "Med Series" or Nourse's "Star Surgeon". If you can manage to wade through the barely-competent writing style, the stories present some small amount of plot interest, of probably average quality for the time (which, considering the pulps of the 30's & 40's is not saying much for them, keeping Sturgeon's Law in mind). ------------------------------ Date: 9 Feb 84 17:21:38 EST (Thursday) Subject: Re: mishmash From: Chris Heiny "...was the mishmash at the end of T#otB the beginning of the trend we've seen with Niven ("Engineers") and Asimov ("Foundation's Edge" and "Robots of Dawn") on the part of authors to try and make ALL of their various plot lines come together?" Actually, the Niven books (commonly called the Known Space series), were all tied together long before Ringworld Engineers came out. In a note in another book, Niven explains why the Pak weren't discovered to be the engineers in the first book. Chris ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Feb 84 17:20:32 EST From: Morris M. Keesan Subject: E.E. "Doc" Smith In addition to the books you mention, you might also try "The Spacehounds of IPC" by Smith, which is roughly the same kind of space opera as the rest of his work. As far as I know it's not part of any series. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Feb 84 16:08:57 EST From: Morris M. Keesan Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #31 Asimov wrote only the novelization of Fantastic Voyage. He had nothing at all to do with the creation of the film. In fact, he tried to convince the powers that were that he was the wrong person to do the novelization, but when he suggested they give the job to someone else (Ted Sturgeon?), his motives were considered suspect, and he ended up with the job. As I recall, one of the reasons he didn't want to do the novelization was that he knew people would end up believing that he had written the original story for the movie. I forget where I read all of this -- probably in Isaac's autobiography. ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 9 Feb 1984 15:03:14-PST From: decwrl!rhea!spider!lewis@Shasta Subject: Fantastic Voyage No Isaac Asimov did NOT write Fantastic Voyage. He ONLY wrote the novelization of the screenplay. He said he did his best to retrieve the obvious absurdities of the main premise of shrinking people, but it was really hopeless. Since the producers of the movie seem to have contributed to the mistaken impression that Isaac DID write the movie, it's easy to form that impression. - Suford ------------------------------ Date: 9 Feb 84 14:17:12 PST (Thursday) Subject: Re: The First Spaceship on Venus--Slight SPOILER From: Kevin I too remember that movie, and was also impressed by the surrealistic sets and effects. The colorful, swirling gas/clouds in the atmosphere added to the wierd mood. It really made you feel that you were in a very alien place, as opposed to American SF which usually takes place in a rocky canyon somewhere in L.A., or in a boring (interior design) spaceship. The story also had some mysteries (though not well done) to solve: what happened to the inhabitants of the planet? What are those strange cables running all over the place? What are these buildings used for? I think this was made in Italy, and was dubbed poorly, making it difficult for many stations to show it seriously. Seems there have been several Italian SF movies that have a definite style of special effects, set design, and story. I remember one about a planet of "vampires" attacking the crew of a ship one by one, and another of an exploration of a planet (Venus?) in which the astronauts discover a race of women, and are aided by a tall robot (who comes in handy when the lava arrives). Anyone know more about them? Titles? Dates? ~Kevin ------------------------------ From: vortex!lauren at RAND-UNIX Date: Thu, 9-Feb-84 14:25:02-PST Subject: "First Spaceship on Venus" Indeed, this film is an oft-overlooked classic. Another such film is "The Time Travelers" -- a 1965 production involving a group of researchers who use a "time window" to enter the future. Later they return to "the present" via another window, but come back a little "early" and get involved in a "time loop". This is the only film I've ever seen that actually tried to show the concept of continuously looping time in a visual manner. --Lauren-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Feb 84 15:00:15 PST From: Peter Reiher Subject: "2010" film The LA Times had an article about the film version of Clarke's "2010" yesterday. Most of it covered information already released, but there were a couple of new items. It started filming a few days ago, and should be ready for next Christmas. The budget is in the neighborhood of $20 million. Peter Hyams, the director, has made a major, but unspecified, change in the plot to make the film "more relevant". Clarke seems unenthusiastic about the change, but didn't comment at length. Hyams claimed that he got Kubrick's blessing to make the film (Stanley, by the way, just announced that his next film will be about the Vietnam War; the title is "Full Metal Jacket"). The stars are Roy Scheider, John Lithgow (the terrified passenger in the only good episode from "The Twilight Zone: The Movie"), and Bob Balaban, sure to be playing a Russian scientist, given his physical appearance. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs ------------------------------ Date: 8 Feb 84 10:42:19-PST (Wed) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!jay @ Ucb-Vax Subject: trivia question This is really only a trivia question for those who have not seen the film because anyone that has should recall the title immediately. With that in mind, today's trivia question is: Name the one (I'm pretty sure of this) movie where in lieu of opening credits, a voice lists the names and functions of all those affiliated with the film. Jay Elvove ..!seismo!umcp-cs!jay ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 10 Feb 1984 11:11:35-PST From: decwrl!rhea!nacho!lynch (Trivia: Name the first five members of From: Baseball's Hall of Fame) Subject: Dune movie article The February 14 issue of GLOBE (it's one of those National Enquirer-type papers you can get at the checkout stands [I don't by 'em, my wife does...]) has a one-page layout on the Dune movie. There is one large photo (what looks like a battle scene) and a smaller photo (Sian Phillips and Francesca Annis) and a small write-up. The important points: 1) Being produced by Rafaella DeLaurentiis (daughter of Dino) 2) $50 million budget 3) Stars: Kyle MacLachlan (the "hero, Atreides") Jose Ferrer (the "wicked emperor Padisbah") Francesca Annis (the "hero's mother, who ages 200 years during the movie") Jurgen Prochnow ("father") Max Von Sydow ("a planetologist") Sting ("special appearance as Feyd-Rautha") 4) "The sandworms alone cost $2 million...They are actually 75 feet long" 5) "To create Arrakis, 200 men crawled three square miles on a desert location for two months to remove any living thing" 6) "The Fremen's blue eyes were a special challenge...Rafaella tried a dye in her eyes to test it and couldn't see for two days. Finally someone came up with the idea of doing a color touch-up...frame by frame by computer. It was time consuming and very expensive" 7) "If anything in this movie looked like it could be found on earth today, the producers got rid of it" I present this with no assurance of its accuracy. -- Bill Lynch Digital Equipment Corp Nashua, NH UUCP: {decvax,allegra,ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!nacho!lynch ARPA: decwrl!rhea!nacho!lynch@{Berkeley,SU-Shasta} ------------------------------ Date: 7 Feb 84 11:06:54-PST (Tue) From: ihnp4!cbosgd!cbscc!rsu @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Tying Up Loose Ends (Re: Indiana Jones, 2010, the Scott Subject: brothers) I think the reason that Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom appears on the side of the video of Raiders is that there is a coming attractions "trailer" either before or after the actual film on that videotape. As far as I know, the sequel is still called "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom", and it opens nationally on May 25. Ridley Scott is definitely the director of "Blade Runner". Tony Scott's first and only film so far is the film, "The Hunger". Also, Ridley Scott's next film will be "Legends",some sort of Dark Ages fantasy, with makeup and "creatures" by Rob Bottin, who did the Thing in, of course, "The Thing". Ridley Scott has also done some American commercials, most notably, the Chanel No. 5 ones("share the fantasy"). While on the subject of "Dune", I think it's scheduled for a Dec. 5 release. Also, David Lynch's next film will be a fairly low-budget "personal" film (a la Spielberg's E.T.) called "Ronnie Rocket". For whoever wanted to know who directed "The Last Wave", it was Peter Weir, whose most recent film was "The Year of Living Dangerously". Finally, "2010" will star Roy Scheider, John Lithgow, Bob Balaban and Keir Dullea. P.S. Where do I write to for input from Stephen King fans? No snide comments, please. For those who are interested, "Firestarter" opens nationally on May 11. Also, I just read in Publisher's Weekly that Universal is in the process of acquiring the rights to the Stephen King-Peter Straub collaberation, "The Talisman" (to be published in Sept.), as a possible Steven Spielberg project!! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Feb 84 14:10:04 pst From: allegra!scgvaxd!4ccvax!LESLIE@Berkeley Subject: more real old time religion Let us do our thing for Eris Goddess of the discord there is Apple's golden, it's not ferrous and that's good enough for me Of the Old Ones, none is vaster Even Cthulhu's not his master I refer to the unspeakable ------* and that's good enough for me * well, do YOU want to say it? Leslie Schweitzer (HMC) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 15-Feb SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #33 *** EOOH *** Date: 15 Feb 84 1313-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #33 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 15 Feb 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 33 Today's Topics: Administrivia, Books - Haldeman & Hubbard & Lafferty & McCaffrey & Smith, Films - "First Spaceship on Venus" & "Fire Maidens From Outer Space" & Star Wars & E.T., Music - Song Query ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 26 Jan 84 14:13:46 EST From: Saul Subject: Administrivia At Boskone XXI (the Boston regional SF convention), there will be a panel entitled "Tom Swift and his Electric Fanzine". Several members of the SFL community will be participating in it. However, in consideration of SFL's sensitive nature, it is requested that any of the SFL readership who might be there refrain from mentioning SFL or the ARPAnet during the Q&A period. Saul ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 13 Feb 1984 11:54:09-PST From: decwrl!rhea!dosadi!binder (Wanted: A good five-cent nickel) From: Subject: Second the vote for Forever War Just got onto SF-LOVERS, saw mention of Haldeman's Forever War as antithesis to Heinlein's Starship Troopers. Read ST first, so you can laugh at all the infantile idealisms there while you are reading FW. Not that ST is bad, because it's sort of fun in a slambang way (even the sociopolitical hogwash is part of the fun...), but FW makes it look like a children's story. Haldeman has his head screwed on very straight. For another equally good treat, read Haldeman's All My Sins Remembered. The surprise ending will rock you. - Dick Binder decvax!decwrl!rhea!dosadi!binder ------------------------------ Date: Fri 10 Feb 84 00:15:47-CST From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA Subject: Books by Smith & Hubbard ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Hubbard's Earlier Books ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Somebody was asking about L. Ron Hubbard's novels (novellas? novelettes?) and collections from about 30 years ago-- THE KINGSLAYER aka SEVEN STEPS TO THE ARBITER DEATH'S DEPUTY (with the above as FROM DEATH TO THE STARS) FEAR TYPEWRITER IN THE SKY THE ULTIMATE ADVENTURE FINAL BLACKOUT RETURN TO TOMORROW SLAVES OF SLEEP TRITON OLE DOC METHUSELAH Whether they're "good" or not I can't say. I especially like SF- medicals, so grabbed up that last one but found it so inadequate in comparison with not only much more recent ones by White and Nourse, but also its nearer contemporaries, Leinster's "Med Service" series, that I can't offer much hope. It was so bad that if Hubbard's recent book is even half-way good, I'd go along with the folks who doubt that he wrote it. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Feb 84 05:16:10 EST From: Liz Subject: Lafferty and McCaffrey Run of the mill Lafferty is still better than the best output of most of the writers I am reading these days. I was not terribly impressed by Klepsis...I went into it with high hopes, but I do not think Lafferty is at his best in novels. My library is STILL in storage...But Lafferty put out a collection titled One Thousand Grandmothers ( or it might have been One Hundred) which should be on anyone who likes short stories shelf. ( What syntax?) liz// ------------------------------ Date: 10 Feb 84 05:16:10 EST From: Liz Subject: Lafferty and McCaffrey Did anyone notice the Locus interview where McCaffrey announced she had finished the second volume of the Dinosaur Series...Now to dig up another copy of Dinosaur Planet ( I gave mine away about 5 moves ago). liz// ------------------------------ Date: Fri 10 Feb 84 00:15:47-CST From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA Subject: Books by Smith & Hubbard ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Non-Lensman or Skylark Books by Doc Smith ^^^^^^^^ In addition to the Lensman and Skylark series, Smith had three "singletons": SUBSPACE EXPLORERS SPACEHOUNDS OF IPC THE GALAXY PRIMES The "Family D'Alembert" series, by Smith "with Steve Goldin" are, with the exception of the 1st, IMPERIAL STARS, all by Goldin. Fairly recently, (?David A.) Kyle, an old-timer fan and friend of Smith has been writing continuations of the Lensmen series, each featuring a different one of the non-human 2nd Stage Lensmen. The Goldin and Kyle books are not well regarded, but if you've read the "pure quill" stuff so often you practically know it by heart, yet your appetite for more is insatiable, the imitations ARE better than nothing at all. ------------------------------ From: vortex!lauren at RAND-UNIX Date: Sat, 11-Feb-84 14:24:06-PST Subject: "First Spaceship on Venus" and "Fire Maidens From Outer Subject: Space" Actually, "First Spaceship on Venus" was not Italian, it was German/Polish. The original title was "Der Schweigende Stern" (The Silent Star). --- The film that involved a group of Venus explorers who found a race of women making sacrifices to a petrified dinosaur (this is the movie with the robot that's helpful when the lava comes) was called "Fire Maidens From Outer Space". Made in 1956, it starred Anthony Dexter (Basil Rathbone had a fairly minor supporting role). It is frequently considered to be one of the worst SF films ever made, though personally I think it has an interesting "feel" that is unique and keeps it from being a total loser. --Lauren-- P.S. At the end, the robot gets covered with lava and the women switch to worshipping the robot instead of the dinosaur! --LW-- ------------------------------ Date: 8 Feb 84 20:12:23-PST (Wed) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!ctvax!uokvax!jab @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: SW television rumor - (nf) I have heard a rumor that Star Wars will be broadcast on national television (CBS, I think) sometime next month. Can anyone confirm/deny this rumor?? Thanks in advance, Ken Varnum (..decvax!dartvax!kenv) /* ---------- */ I heard about a year ago that CBS was going to televise SW in Spring 1984. (This was announced around the same time that the HBO showings were announced.) I guess that's what you heard, sorta. Jeff Bowles ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 13 February 1984, 08:59-PST From: Harris Shiffman Subject: E.T.: Phone For A Second Opinion To: INFO-COBOL at SCH-GILA, FUN at SCH-GILA From the Los Angeles Times Calendar Section, 12 February 1984: E.T., You Should Have Phoned Home For A Second Opinion E.T could have sued for malpractice but he went home instead. Gentle, good and lovable E.T. didn't even contact a lawyer after he almost died on this planet in 1982, but some medical experts now think he probably had a good case against the doctors who treated him in Steven Spielberg's "E.T. The Extra-Terrestrial". Seriously. Real-life doctors are making a fuss over the type of medical treatment E.T. received. Some emergency-medicine specialists think that doctors in the movie not only may have failed to recognize that E.T. could have been suffering from a drug overdose, but they apparently neglected a basic procedure that is taught to first-year medical students. A cheeky debate on the subject has been carrying on for more than a year in the letters column of the medical monthly Annals of Emergency Medicine. In the current issue, Dr. Alexander Lampone of St. John's Hospital of Santa Monica - the actor/doctor who headed the medical team that tended to the creature - defended his actions. But he did indicate some uncertainly, noting, "Well, how do you know what to give an alien from space?" If they had been sued by E.T., Lampone and his team certainly would have had a novel defense - one not seen in the average malpractice dispute. They say that they did everything that their colleagues claim they failed to do. But it actually was director Spielberg who endangered their professional reputation by editing out many of the most important steps in the battle to save E.T.'s life, they claim. It's an ancient lament in Hollywood that the actor's best perfor- mance was left somewhere on the cutting-room floor. But a doctor's? Spielberg wasn't around to shed any light on any of these allegations. His office said that he was out of town and unavailable. "And frankly," a spokeswoman said, "on something like this, I wouldn't have the faintest idea who to refer you to." Why all of this is relevant today is testimony more to the glacial pace of medical-journal communication than to anything else. But criticism of E.T.'s medical care has been quietly and slowly - if facetiously - building. It began in August, 1982, at a medical symposium on rare poisoning cases, continued in the correspondence columns of the medicine journal a year later and came to a head in the current issue. The debate pits Lampone against a prominent local emergency physician, Dr. Jonathan Wasserberger of the Charles R. Drew Medical School, Dr. Richard Weisman, director of the New York City Poison Control Center and a prominent expert in the field of toxicology, and Dr. Gary Ordog, a colleage of Wasserberger's at Martin Luther King General Hospital. E.T.'s physicians, say Wasserberger, Weisman and Ordog, made so many mistakes when they tried to resuscitate the poor creature that they almost killed him in the process. For one thing, the E.T. medical team failed to ask little Elliot, his young human friend, just what the stricken creature had been eating in the days before the attack. If the doctors had asked, Elliot probably would have told them that E.T. had liberally consumed Coors beer and corn chips, a diet that almost certainly resulted in a potentially catastrophic glucose deficiency. Because the doctors didn't ask, they never began emergency intravenous therapy to correct the dangerous interruption in his blood-sugar levels - whatever they normally should have been. Worse still, E.T.'s doctors completely overlooked the fact that his pupils were constricted and his skin - if that's what you call it - was turning bluish in the unmistakable first signs of cyanosis,, a sure indication he wasn't getting enough oxygen. Together, those symptoms should have warned E.T.'s physicians the poor creature was a victim of a narcotic overdose. That doesn't mean E.T. was a junkie, the dissident doctors quickly added. E.T.'s bizarre physiognomy probably resulted in his manufacturing massive amounts of opiate-like natural chemicals. Humans do essentially the same thing on a much smaller scale, in the manufacture of natural pain-relieving chemicals called endorphins. But E.T. probably produced such large quantities of natural narco- tics that, when his body tried to compensate for the psychological trauma of being abandoned on Earth, he essentially overdosed himself. His doctors missed that, though, and lost an opportunity to pump him full of a substance called a narcotic antagonist to ward off the potentially fatal effects of his do-it-yourself drugs, the doctors charge. E.T.'s doctor joined the fray in the current issue, writing, "I am pleased that our efforts did not go unnoticed by those with knowledge to judge and evaluate the scene." Then, having dismissed virtually all of the deficiencies in E.T.'s care by using the "Spielberg-cut-it-in-editing" scenario, Lampone seems to conclude that it doesn't matter since the patient survived anyway. Specifically, Lampone asserted that he and his colleagues did give E.T. several doses of Nalaxone, a common narcotic antagonist. And he said that, contrary to the allegations against him, little Elliot, the boy's family and friends were all quizzed on E.T.'s eating habits. "You just have to assume that sometime during that period (the scene when E.T.'s medical crisis occurs) we would have taken a thorough history," Lampone said. "His heart arrested, and we were going to give him electrical shocks, but if you shock someone with a crystalline skin, how do you know you won't just crack them open?" Besides, Lampone said, "you can rest assured that E.T. received the very best care. God was on our side, and E.T. lives. He'll be back. "Spielberg wouldn't settle for second best for his alien. Spielberg is that kinda guy." It was at the 1982 International Symposium on Toxicology in Aspen, Colorado, that Weisman and Dr. Lewis Goldfrank, one of Weisman's colleagues at Bellevue Hospital, concluded that E.T.'s bizarre "skin" color and tight restriction of his pupils fingered him as a likely overdose victim. E.T. needed a narcotic antagonist, Weisman and Goldfrank contended. In fact, Weisman said, in recent research, the two New York doctors have even come up with a dosage level - two milligrams - in case any emergency room in the country finds itself with an extraterrestrial as a patient. Months later, Wasserberger, a board-certified poison specialist and assistant professor at Drew Medical School, expanded on the original accusation. "Considering the way the case appeared to have been handled, I would say E.T. is lucky to be alive," Wasserberger told Calendar. "We have to realize that, in many ways, E.T. was like a child. His only nourishment appeared to have been Coors and corn chips, and alcohol in a child is known to cause profound hypoglycemia (a shortage of sugar in the blood). "The doctors should have at least found out what he'd been eating for the last couple of days. He looked like any wino they wheel into the emergency room on Saturday night." Then, Wasserberger said, there is the matter of the overdose. "You could tell his brain was producing inordinate amounts of narcotics," he said. "He was overly happy about his situation. He was a little blue, and his pupils were small." Wasserberger said that "if we had to take it at face value from what they showed us on the screen, there was obvious malpractice." Unlike some internecine disputes in medicine, however, this one appears unlikely to spill over into the courts, the public meetings of some medical society or the back-room backbiting of the bars and other places where doctors gather after work. The diplomatic Wasserberger read Lampone's explanation in the latest issue of the journal and pronounced himself mollified - if not entirely satisfied - with the cutting-room-floor claim. "He's a prominent physician at a major hospital here in town," Wasserberger said of Lampone, "and I will take him at his word." ------------------------------ Date: Sun 12 Feb 84 03:10:29-CST From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA Subject: song query ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Name That Tune! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I was cruising along the highway tonight and getting sleepy, so I switched from the "easy listening" station to something pop and contemporary. A song came on, not too clearly, that must surely have been one of the pop-songs-with-SF-relevance which were discussed on SF-LOVERS a while back. It seemed to have something to do with spaceships, maybe the shuttle. There was a 4 - 3 - 2 - 1 countdown (tho no blastoff type sound), with "floating" and maybe "flying" in what was probably the chorus. Can anyone identify this for me? ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 22-Feb SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #34 *** EOOH *** Date: 22 Feb 84 1607-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #34 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 21 Feb 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 34 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein & Smith & Wolfe & Cats in SF & Consistency & Dragons & Computer SF in Analog & Preaching Authors & A Star Trek Question, Films - Fire Maidens of Outer Space & SF Movies & Android & Star Wars, Television - SW Television Rumor & Green Hornet & The Lathe of Heaven & Questor ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14 Feb 84 14:35:00-PST (Tue) From: hplabs!hp-pcd!charlie @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Re: Re: Friday, by Heinlein, + more Kettle Belly Baldwin was featured in only one other Heinlein story that I know of, a neat little novella titled Gulf. It was a spy story where Kettle Belly was the leader of an underground group of supermen. Friday's parents (major gene donors) were two characters in that story that died to save the Earth. ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 16 Feb 1984 07:52:57-PST From: decwrl!rhea!tonto!alanurm (Network Systems Group) From: Subject: One more by E.E. Smith On the subject of books by E.E. Smith, Phd: There is one more I have seen that is not mentioned. It is called "Masters of the Vortex". Len Alanurm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Feb 84 16:00:33 pst From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin) I've been having a hard time finding Gene Wolfe's Operation Ares (1970). Is it novel or anthology? Is it about anything in particular? What was Wolfe's first book? Steve ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 22 Feb 1984 09:03:46-PST From: decwrl!rhea!elsie!insinga (Aron Insinga) From: Subject: cats in sf There were a couple of cat characters in the novel "Beyond Rejection" (Del Rey, 1980) by Justin Leiber. (Well, they were cats more or less.) - Aron Insinga UUCP: {decvax, ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!elsie!insinga ARPA: decwrl!rhea!elsie!insinga@SU-Shasta ------------------------------ Date: 20 Feb 84 9:46:17-PST (Mon) From: decvax!decwrl!root @ Ucb-Vax From: amber::chabot (Lisa Chabot) Subject: more harping on consistency RE: The self-consistency of Deryni novels I didn't think they were self-consistent. On the first page of the first book (published) I seem to remember two characters introduced as being close friends for many years, yet, because the author resorted to a weak literary device of a conversation to convey information to the reader (but probably not between the conversants), these two familiar friends then speak in an overly formal manner about things that such close friends wouldn't need to speak of. One would think they'd rarely met. Either that, or one or both were insane. I want all of you men (or boys) who spent your teens reading Heinlein books to remember We're all out to get you!!! ( :-) ) Lisa S. Chabot UUCP: ...{ decvax | allegra | ucbvax }!decwrl!rhea!amber!chabot ARPA: ...decwrl!rhea!amber!chabot@{ Berkeley | SU-Shasta } reality: DEC, MR03-1/K20, 2 Iron Way, Marlboro, MA 01752 shadow: ...{ decvax | allegra | ucbvax }!decwrl!rhea!avalon!chabot ------------------------------ Date: 17 Feb 84 9:16:43-PST (Fri) From: harpo!zeppo!infopro!dave @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Dragons of Light/ Many Colored Land - (nf) The titles DO mean plenty. "Dragons of Darkness", the followup volume to "Dragons of Light", was chiefly populated by evil dragons (of the Western variety) and other stories of a "dark" nature. The editor, realizing how depressing these stories are, alternated them with more cheerful ones to prevent suicides/unhappiness. This is my interpretation, but read odd-numbered stories ONLY and you may find yourself staring out the windows for hours or getting out the old razor blade. The first book, aside from being more uplifting, had generally better stories and is highly recommended. Another good book for dragons and their fans is "Tea with the Black Dragon" by R.A. MacAvoy which also has a nonstupid contemporary computer software subplot. Dave Fiedler {harpo,astrovax,philabs}!infopro!dave ------------------------------ Date: 4 Nov 83 0:21:06-PST (Fri) From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd70!onyx!dual!zehntel!tektronix!tekcad!vic From: e!keithl@Ucb-Vax Subject: Computer SF in Analog I haven't seen anything lately from netter Arlan K. Andrews, but a short story of his appears in the December 1983 "Analog" magazine (available at a newstand near you). The subject is electronically submitted manuscripts, and automated editing/syntax checking taken too far. Good Stuff. At least 5 of the items in this issue were prepared on computers; at least two under un*x (I wrote one too). Let's see, 2 Gbytes of disk at 8 cents a word... Keith Lofstrom uucp: {ucbvax,decvax,chico,pur-ee,cbosg,ihnss}!teklabs!vice!keithl CSnet: keithl@tek ARPAnet:keithl.tek@rand-relay ------------------------------ Date: 17 Feb 84 2:28:07-PST (Fri) From: sun!qubix!steven @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Preachy authors continued..... I am sure that there are people out there who hate Heinlien, because of his "right wing" (and sometimes libertarian) slants. However, I might note that Heinlein is hardly atypical in this respect. I have noticed that almost all authors try to fit their own particular brand of politics into their stories, from The Martian Way, up to 1984. What is really terrible is to see a once excellent author, like Heinlein, go bad. A little politics is fine, especially if it is incorporated well into the plot line. But when the author starts to harrangue, that is where is becomes not worth reading. There are some authors that I buy just because they have written the story, and I feel really ripped off when I start reading a real politicized dog. The latest author who has fallen into this pit is Marion Zimmer Bradley. Her Darkover novels have always been written with a bit of "feminine slant" (i.e. the plots center around: women forced to have children, women rebelling against the sexist society they live in, the cruelty of men, protagonists who are helpless in their fate, woman/woman relationships, etc.), HOWEVER her latest novel Thendara House really tears it. God what a suck novel. Instead of having the heroine try to choose between her husband, and her honor -- or choose between the Terran or the Darkover culture -- instead, she makes the husband become an absolute caricature of MCPig'ism. He is set up like a piece of cardboard. He greedily lusts after her womb, and is generally so obnoxious it is hard to believe that she would stay with him for more than 1 chapter. The rest of the book is drooling self-analysis, stretching a 2 chapter plot over 300 pages. I certainly hope that Ms. Bradley gets over her extremism. I know it can be done, even Heinlein has gotten a lot better with his new book Friday. Steven Maurer ------------------------------ Date: 20 Feb 84 09:40:46 EST From: Marla Subject: Star Trek question Reply-to: Selinger@Ru-Blue In "Star Trek, the New Voyages" (Volume One or Two, I forget), was the story "Visit to a Strange Planet Revisited". In it, Shatner, Kelley and Nimoy suddenly find themselves aboard the *real* Enterprise (special FX and all) and must play their roles for real, while trying to find a way back home. I very much enjoyed it, but I am really interested in finding the story that is was based on - "Visit to a Strange Planet" (author mentioned in the preface to "Revisited", I just don't have a copy handy). In this story, of course, Kirk, Spock and McCoy find themselves at the TV show sound stage. It appeared in some fanzine; does anyone know where I could obtain a copy or a reprint of this story? Please reply to SELINGER@RU-BLUE as well as to SFL; I am not on the mailing list. Marla ------------------------------ Date: Wed 15 Feb 84 13:29:51-PST From: Mark Crispin Subject: Fire Maidens of Outer Space You have not lived until you see the Fire-Maidens dancing to "Strangers in Paradise". This all-time baddie ends with the Fire- Maidens (each holding one of the earthmen arm-in-arm) walking back to the Earth spaceship and bidding their lovers farewell, tearful promises of returning, etc. This is definitely part of any bad movie fanatic's videotape collection. Other terribly bad SF flicks are "Plan 9 From Outer Space", "Bride of the Monster", "Robot Monster", "Buck Rogers in the 25th Century", "Battlestar Galactica", and "Wargames". The latter three more modern stink-bombs enjoyed surprising success; maybe bad movie fanaticism is not as strange as it once was. About "Wargames"; I just saw it for the first time. I wonder if we could slap UA with a class-action suit for slander against computer professionals. In particular, the implication that "all computer professionals put in a 'back door' so they can always get into the system even after they leave and additional security is put in" sounds like it fits the legal definition of slander. ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 9 Feb 1984 17:18:52-PST From: decwrl!rhea!orphan!lionel (Steve Lionel) From: Subject: SF movies Lawrence Feinberg asked if anyone remembered "First Spaceship on Venus". I think I do; is that the one where they accidentally reverse gravity, and the attempts to save one of the astronauts fails because they keep floating off? If so, I remember it had quite an impact on me many many years ago when I saw it. John Hobson asked "Didn't Asimov write Fantastic Voyage?" Asimov wrote the novelization, after the movie had been produced. In doing so, he corrected a few of the technical errors that the movie made (such as the lung walls appearing paper thin to the travellers), but had to leave in quite a few more. I recall him discussing the writing of the novel somewhere, but can't recall where. Steve Lionel UUCP: {ucbvax,decvax}!decwrl!rhea!orphan!lionel ARPA: decwrl!rhea!orphan!lionel@Berkeley MCI: slionel ------------------------------ Date: 14 Feb 84 9:49:56-PST (Tue) From: menlo70!nsc!chuqui @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Android (some plot discussion) Over the weekend I went and saw the new movie 'Android' starring Klaus (Nosferatu) Kinski. This is a small budget (not low budget) film very loosely based upon 'Frankenstein'. Kinski is a research scientist doing work on a satellite in space on androids. Android research, however, is illegal because androids have been outlawed after a group of them went berserk in Munich, killing and raping. Kinski is assisted by an adroid, Max 404 (very well played by an actor credited only as 'himself'). While the Dr. is working on the ultimate android (blond, stacked, and submissive), Max is showing signs of the Munich syndrome, with a fixation on Earth and women. A disabled ship lands on the satellite with three escaped convicts on them, one of them a woman, and the movie takes off. Any further discussion would probably give away things that are better left for the movie. Klaus Kinski is very understated in the role, and handles it very well. All of the acting in the movie is well done. The plot has some nice twists in it, the sets and special effects (only a few, thank god) are wonderful. The humor in the movie is sometimes reminiscent of Dark Star, but the overall feeling of the movie is closer to Alien or 2001. It's good. Very good. Potentially a new classic in SF. See it. Now. Rating: ****.5 (out of 5) worth full price admission AND standing in line in the rain. >From the house at Pooh Corner: Chuq 'Nuke Wobegon' Von Rospach {fortune,menlo70}!nsc!chuqui Have you hugged your Pooh today? Cottleston, Cottleston, Cottleston Pie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Feb 84 16:01 EST From: Jonathan Ostrowsky Subject: SW idiom A friend thinks that the death of Jedi masters (Ben, Yoda) is described by other characters in the films in terms of the Force (along the lines of "going to the Happy Hunting Ground"). He can't remember if this is so, and neither can I. Can anyone help with this? Jonathan Ostrowsky jo%scrc-vixen@mit-mc ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Feb 84 16:00:56 EST From: Chuck Kennedy Subject: Re: SW television rumor - (nf) Yes, I saw the preview last night after the first half of "Gone With The Wind" was shown. Star Wars will be televised by CBS. -Chuck Kennedy ------------------------------ Date: 11 Feb 84 9:50:05-PST (Sat) From: decvax!mcnc!akgua!psuvax!burdvax!sjuvax!armstron @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Wanted : 1967 Green Hornet reruns Does anyone know where (or more appropriately IF) I can get any videos of the 1967 Green Hornet series ?? Would anyone who lives in an area where reruns of this show are shown be willing to make arrangements with me to tape these ?? All and any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in Advance, Len Armstrong St. Joseph's University. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Feb 84 13:14:48 PST (Wednesday) From: McCullough.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA Subject: Lathe of Heaven & Seattle Volume 30 #29 discusses LeGuin's "Lathe of Heaven," and mentions it as being set in Seattle. The streets mentioned in the story are definitely in Portland, Oregon. It's been a while since I read the story and saw the film, but I believe that the story was also set in Portland. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Feb 84 11:48:10-PST (Mon) From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!houti!ariel!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!tektronix From: !orca!shark!hutch @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Questor Tapes Oddly enough, they showed "Questor Tapes" on telly here in Portland OR just last saturday, on channel 8 (I think). DREADFUL! It may just be that I have learned discrimination, but the dialogue between Questor and the lady scientist/security guard was SO BAD I couldn't keep watching. I turned to Portland Wrestling instead, for some better acting. Hutch ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 23-Feb SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #35 *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Feb 84 1339-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #35 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 23 Feb 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 35 Today's Topics: The Day of the JackL. Re: Name That Tune! Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #33 That Tune Named "Countdown song" re: Song Query ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 Feb 84 13:34:49 EST From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA Subject: The Day of the JackL. Reading the recent message about Jack L. Chalker's WELL WORLD series made me think about submitting a "Compleat Jack L. Chalker". Here are the results of my efforts: 1. Books that have not yet been published, or have been published and are impossible to find: a. AN INFORMAL BIOGRAPHY OF SCROOGE MCDUCK (mentioned in WAR OF SHADOWS, see below). b. WAR GAME (mentioned in WAR OF SHADOWS). c. RIP SAW (mentioned in WAR OF SHADOWS). d. DOWNTIMING THE NIGHT SIDE (mentioned in WAR OF SHADOWS). e. THE DEVIL'S VOYAGE (mentioned in SPIRITS OF FLUX AND ANCHOR, see below). 2. Published books that are not part of a series, or are not yet part of a series: a. THE WEB OF THE CHOZEN (Del Rey, $1.75, published February 1978, cover art by Ralph McQuarrie, ISBN #0-345-2736-1). WEB is one of my favorite Chalker novels. It has one of Chalker's favorite themes--that of transformation. It is also a rousing good space opera, and although not officially a series, I have worked out (by myself, never having met Chalker, I haven't been able to show them to him!) outlines for two more books based on events that take place in the first novel. b. DANCERS IN THE AFTERGLOW (Del Rey, $1.75, published August 1978, cover art by Michael Herring, ISBN #0-345-27376-1). DANCERS is a very interesting novel, an interesting examination of some events of the sixties and early seventies--i.e., the wars in Vietnam and Cambodia. It also continues the use of some Chalker's favorite themes--transformation, mind-control, as well as malevolent group-mind aliens. Highly recommended. c. AND THE DEVIL WILL DRAG YOU UNDER (Del Rey, $1.95, published 1979, cover art by Darrell K. Sweet, ISBN #0-345-27926-3). DEVIL is another favorite. Earthmen have accidentaly brought down their own doom and a person who claims to be the Devil gives the novel's main characters a chance to save the world. Will they do it? Can he be trusted? Can he remain sober enough to save the world? A rousing space-time novel, with elements of swords and sorcery, Lovecraftian horror, and good clean fun. Look carefully at the cover art, especially the bottle. d. A JUNGLE OF STARS (Del Rey, $1.50, published November 1976, cover art by H.R. Van Dongen, ISBN #0-345-25457-0-150). This is Chalker's first novel, and has many of the weaknesses that first novels develop. However, it is still an enjoyable book. The main character is killed during the Vietnam war, and "wakes" to find that he has been rescued by an alien force. He then becomes involved in a vast galactic war. The novel involves several of Chalker's favorite themes--transformation, mind-control, etc. JUNGLE is supposed to be part of a series, a collection of short-stories was planned. Indeed, at least one of the short stories was written and published (in Analog, around 1979 or thereabouts, I haven't been able to track it down yet). Alas, the short story collection has not yet come to be, but hope springs eternal... e. THE IDENTITY MATRIX (Timescape, $2.95, published July 1982, cover artist unknown, ISBN #0-671-44481-6). This book has an interesting publishing history. It was first going to be published by Dell Books, round about 1979-80, but Chalker had problems with the publisher (who wanted all that s*e*x taken out). Dell then had problems with their SF line, and the book hung in suspension for a few years. The book is good, but repeats several themes (transformation, mind-control). Different in that it takes place mostly on Earth. It would make an interesting television movie, if the Right Hands would work on it. If you can find it (seeing that Timescape is in such a state of chaos right now), grab it. f. A WAR OF SHADOWS (Ace, $1.95, published 1979, unknown cover artist, ISBN #0-441-87195-X). Again, a hard book to find, but well worth it if you can find it. A spy thriller with SF overtones, in the vein of THE ANDROMEDA STRAIN or FIREFOX. The USA is under attack--but by whom? Someone from the outside? An internal group? A leftist group? A rightist group? Again, would make an interesting television movie, if the right person could be found. Good stuff. 3. Series books. This is Chalker's forte, the ever-growing series: a. THE SOUL RIDER SERIES: Only one book has been published so far, I haven't gotten to it yet. Review forthcoming. BOOK ONE: SPIRITS OF FLUX AND ANCHOR (Tor Books, $2.95, published March 1984, cover art by Dawn Wilson, ISBN # 27298-03). b. THE DANCING GOD SERIES: As with the above, only one book has been published, and I haven't gotten to it yet. Review forthcoming. BOOK ONE: THE RIVER OF THE DANCING GODS (Del Rey, $2.95, published February 1984, art by Darrell K. Sweet, mapy by Shelly Shapiro, ISBN #0-345-30892-1). c. THE SAGA OF THE WELL WORLD: Here it is boys and girls, the series that made Chalker a household word (well, almost...) Yes, as reported, many of the hexes are named after famous SF fans. They are also named after ferry boats, National Parks, and other odds and ends. To describe the plot would take a message in itself, perhaps another time...The series consists of five books, spanning many years (both in publishing history and fictional history). In my humble opinion, the series starts out great, and goes downhill (for the most part) from there. Still in print, and well worth reading, at least once. BOOK ONE--MIDNIGHT AT THE WELL OF SOULS (Del Rey, $1.95, published July 1977, cover art by H.R. Van Dongen, ISBN # 0-345-25768-5-175). BOOK TWO--EXILES AT THE WELL OF SOULS (Part One of THE WARS OF THE WELL) (Del Rey, $1.95, published September 1978, cover art by Darrell K. Sweet, ISBN #0-345-27701-5). BOOK THREE--QUEST FOR THE WELL OF SOULS (Part Two of THE WARS OF THE WELL) (Del Rey, $1.95, published November 1978, cover art by Darrell K. Sweet, ISBN #0-345-27702-3). BOOK FOUR--THE RETURN OF NATHAN BRAZIL (Originally known as NATHAN BRAZIL) (Del Rey, $2.95, published January 1980, art by Darrell K. Sweet, ISBN #0-345-28367-8). BOOK FIVE--TWILIGHT AT THE WELL OF SOULS: THE LEGACY OF NATHAN BRAZIL (Originally known as NATHAN BRAZIL) (Del Rey, $2.95, published October 1980, cover art by Darrell K. Sweet, ISBN # 0-345-28368-6). d. THE FOUR LORDS OF THE DIAMOND: I must confess that I am finding it difficult to get through this series. Again, a fairly complicated plot, worth a message in itself. I read the first two books and generally enjoyed them. I could hardly get through the third book, and haven't been able to get into the fourth book yet. I don't really know what bothers me about the books, perhaps the fact that each plotline is generally the same as the others. BOOK ONE--LILITH: A SNAKE IN THE GRASS (Del Rey, $2.50, published October 1981, cover art by David B. Mattingly, ISBN #0-345-29369-X). BOOK TWO--CERBERUS: A WOLF IN THE FOLD (Del Rey, $2.50, published January 1982, cover art by David B. Mattingly, ISBN #0-345-29371-1). BOOK THREE--CHARON: A DRAGON AT THE GATE (Del Rey, $2.95, published November 1982, cover art by David B. Mattingly, ISBN #0-345-29370-3). BOOK FOUR--MEDUSA: A TIGER BY THE TAIL (Del Rey, $2.95, published April 1983, cover art by David B. Mattingly, ISBN #0-345-29372-X). That, to the best of my knowledge, is the "Compleat Jack L. Chalker". I will be glad to update this list periodically, as new books are published, and add new comments as I read the various books. Coming soon (I hope!), a fairly complete bibliography of A.E. Van Vogt! Sincerely, Frederick Paul Kiesche III ------------------------------ Date: 16 Feb 84 01:57:01 EST From: Don Subject: Re: Name That Tune! To: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA It sounds like you are describing Space Hymn by Lothar and the Hand People. Back in the late 60's/early 70's Allison Steele, a radio personality on WNEW-FM, New York, used to occasionally get into a strange mood and play correspondingly bizarre music. One of these pieces was Space Hymn. After hearing it a couple of times, I actually caught the name. Years later, I actually ran across the album in a store. For a used (and in not too good shape) copy, the owner wanted something on the order of $150. (I think he also had a mint copy for maybe $100 more.) At any rate, I was able to rent the album to take home and record. Anyway, here're some of the words to it: They start with a sort of mellow space blast-off - ala Jefferson Starship effects. Then they go into a (quite literally) hypnotic rap (with a sort of electric sitar sound in the background). "Now, sit in a comfortable position. Close your eyes, and listen very closely to the sound of my voice. Imagine that there is nothing but you and the sound, floating freely high above the Earth. Now as you listen, you will begin to relax. Every sound you hear relaxes you further...." They go on like this for a while, finally coming to countdown from 5 to 0. Then "Imagine that you are floating high above the Earth. In deep space. Looking out on the universe. Floating free in space. Uplifted and filled with awe. Silently watching the movements of the stars." Then a musical "chorus": Standing on the moon, filled with thoughts of home, Earth so slowly turning. Twenty thousand years, Human hopes and fears, are we finally learning? Riders together on a starship of stone, Living together, trying together, dying alone. (Repeat.) A good deal of the spoken part at the beginning could have been a literal transcript of a session of hypnosis. (I thought they used to shy away from doing that over mass media.) Lothar (from the name of the group) was a theremin, the Hand People were those who played Lothar. The volume and pitch of the theremin are controlled by moving hands close to or away from two antennae extending from the box. Hope this is what you were looking for. While on the subject of obscure music (but not necessarily SF), does anyone know where I can get a recording of Stairway to Gilligan's Island? (That's the words of Gilligan's Island to the tune of Stairway to Heaven - withdrawn from market due to copyright infringement.) Don ------------------------------ Date: Thu 16 Feb 84 21:12:58-EST From: Joseph A. Frisbie Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #33 HJJH's song query. The song sounds like 99 Red Balloons performed by the German group Neena (sp? -- pronounced Naena) The German version was kicking around Boston for awhile and is called 99 Luft Ballons (sp? again). Joe ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 16 Feb 1984 16:08:26-PST From: decwrl!rhea!sunfun!stewart@Shasta Subject: That Tune Named ********************************************************************** *^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Name That Tune! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ * * * *I was cruising along the highway tonight and getting sleepy, so I * *switched from the "easy listening" station to something pop and * *contemporary. A song came on, not too clearly, that must surely * *have been one of the pop-songs-with-SF-relevance which were * *discussed on SF-LOVERS a while back. It seemed to have something to* *do with spaceships, maybe the shuttle. There was a 4 - 3 - 2 - 1 * *countdown (tho no blastoff type sound), with "floating" and maybe * *"flying" in what was probably the chorus. Can anyone identify this * *for me? * ********************************************************************** That cut is from Peter Schilling's latest album. It's called "Major Tom". The local stations here play both the English and German versions, but not as much anymore. If you liked that, you'd probably like the tune Planet P had on the charts this summer. Unfortunately, I can't remember the name of the song, now. Trivia time! Anybody remember the two other songs mentioning Major Tom? John Stewart ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 16 Feb 1984 19:29:31-PST From: decwrl!rhea!orphan!lionel (Steve Lionel) From: Subject: "Countdown song" From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA Subject: song query ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Name That Tune! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I was cruising along the highway tonight and getting sleepy, so I switched from the "easy listening" station to something pop and contemporary. A song came on, not too clearly, that must surely have been one of the pop-songs-with-SF-relevance which were discussed on SF-LOVERS a while back. It seemed to have something to do with spaceships, maybe the shuttle. There was a 4 - 3 - 2 - 1 countdown (tho no blastoff type sound), with "floating" and maybe "flying" in what was probably the chorus. Can anyone identify this for me? This sounds like "Major Tom", a recent release by Peter Schilling (sp?). This is NOT to be confused with David Bowie's earlier song about an astronaut named Major Tom; the title of THAT song is "Space Oddity". Schiling's song has been played in both English and German versions by WBCN in Boston. Steve Lionel ARPA: decwrl!rhea!orphan!lionel@SU-SHASTA UUCP: decwrl!rhea!orphan MCI: slionel ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 17 Feb 1984 05:07:21-PST From: decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian@Shasta Subject: re: Song Query The tune you want is, from your description, most likely "Major Tom (Coming Home)" by Peter Schiller. The chorus goes something like: "Earth below us Drifting, falling Floating weightless Calling, calling home." The story in the song is basicly that the pilot of a spacecraft, after being shot into orbit, decides not to come back, feeling that he belongs in space, and has indeed "come home". Schiller is a German, and the album from which "Major Tom" comes, ERROR IN THE SYSTEM, is a re-doing of his original album, which is all in German. As a matter of fact, the original German version of "Major Tom" can be had on the flip side of the single of the english version. Hope this has been helpful. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard) UUCP: (decvax!decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian) ARPA: (decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian@Shasta) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Feb 84 23:24:23 est From: Beth Gazouleas The song with the countdown in it is Major Tom (Coming Home) by Peter Schilling, a sequel to 2 songs by David Bowie (Major Tom and Ashes to Ashes). It is a great song! beth [Moderator's Note: Thanks also to all the people who also responded on the song query with similar information. The list is too numerous to mention here.] ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 23-Feb SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #36 *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Feb 84 1621-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #36 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 23 Feb 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 36 Today's Topics: Books - David Brin, Television - Dr. Who (4 msgs), Miscellaneous - ZORK & Believable Aliens & Old Time Religion & Billion Dollar Space Programs & Parsecs & Sure We Can! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 30 Nov 83 14:21:18-PST (Wed) From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd70!onyx!dual!zehntel!tektronix!tekcad!vic From: e!keithl @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Solar physics in "Sundiver" I mostly agree with Lew Mammel's comments on Sundiver ( I liked Startide Rising much better ), but I couldn't let his comment on solar buffeting go without comment. If the density is 1e-6 g/cm3 (though it sounds too high), that is about 0.001 that of the Earth's atmosphere. Aerodynamic forces are proportional to the density times the relative wind velocity squared; the solar velocities would only have to be 30 times higher for an equivalent force. Hurricane velocities in the Earth's atmosphere are around 100 m/sec; an indication of the solar velocity scale is the solar wind, which comes off the sun at >300 Km/sec! For this crude analysis, the buffeting forces would be 9,000 times greater than an Earth hurricane! Of course, the real situation is dependent on the velocities in the deeper layers of the Sun, the actual turbulence, and the "wind shear". The actual buffeting could be orders of magnitude larger or smaller, but the important point is that even a "vacuum" can have a strong wind if it moves fast enough. The Sun is a powerful machine... Keith Lofstrom uucp: {ucbvax,decvax,chico,pur-ee,cbosg,ihnss}!teklabs!vice!keithl CSnet: keithl@tek ARPAnet:keithl.tek@rand-relay ------------------------------ Date: 20 Feb 84 14:26:37-PST (Mon) From: harpo!ulysses!burl!clyde!akgua!mcnc!duke!ucf-cs!giles @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: aliens in STARTIDE RISING This jumps back a few months, but here goes.... The more I think about it, the more certain I am that the aliens in Brin's universe will *not* recognize artificial intelligences as separate and equal species! Reasons: (1) In *Sundiver* mention is made of several extremely bloody wars between oxygen breathers and hydrogen breathers. During these wars entire planets are laid waste. Needless to say, this would tend to encourage "xenophobia", where "xeno-" refers more to the basic biochemistry than the outer appearance. (2) If more than one species has created artificial intelligences, whose client are they? Since a large amount of prestige is associated with the number of clients, the first species with AI clients would strongly discourage other species from creating their own AI clients. Finally, I suspect that evolution will continue under the patronage system. The upraising species has a very strong vested interest in its client species, specifically it needs them around to ensure that their decendents many years later are treated well before extinction. (Think of the analogy of parents raising children to ensure that they will go to a retirement home). Now, if another species gives its clients every advantage they can, they have a better chance of coming out ahead once they're on their own. And, if they are one of the more powerful species, they can take better care of their patrons. The bottom line is: Natural selection will work to encourage an "artifical evolution" among the client races. This analysis leads to two interesting questions: (1) Since a higher level of technology will also tend to improve a species' standing among all species, why are so many races content to just "sit back" and do things as they've always been done, and (2) Clearly the galactics do not have any qualms concerning genetic engineering (witness the clients). What prevents a species from making a client of itself once they begin to devolve? Clearly genetic engineering (leading to another score million years of their existance) is better than extinction in only a short time. ave discordia going bump in the night ... bruce giles decvax!ucf-cs!giles university of central florida giles.ucf-cs@Rand-Relay orlando, florida 32816 ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 20 Feb 1984 07:53:02-PST From: decwrl!rhea!nacho!lynch (Don't fire until you see the whites of From: their eyes) Subject: Re: "Doctor" Who In the episode "Four for Doomsday", the Doctor (Peter Davison) is asked what type of doctor he is. I think he answers the question quite well: "Of everything". There...straight from the Doctor's mouth! -- Bill Lynch Digital Equipment Corp Nashua, NH UUCP: {decvax,allegra,ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!nacho!lynch ARPA: decwrl!rhea!nacho!lynch@{Berkeley,SU-Shasta} ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Feb 84 18:22 EST From: TMPLee@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Dr. Who Video Game??? Rumor has it there is a Dr. Who video game. Does anyone know if this is true? If it is, what does it run on? Is it available in the U.S.? ------------------------------ Date: 17 Feb 84 20:20:52-PST (Fri) From: decvax!dartvax!mlf @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Dr. Who - Good-bye Tardis How can they get rid of the police box? The new generation of kids may not recognize the thing as a call box, but then I imagine that young American viewers of a few years back did either, and they haven't complained. What with the Doctor becoming so painfully serious and solemn these days, a TARDIS shaped like an outdated, incongruous artifact is a badly needed touch of whimsy. Yes, they can take away the sonic screwdriver, they can unravel the scarf, but by God they should not trash the call box. After all, what is sacred, anyway? ------------------------------ Date: 9 Feb 84 13:37:31-PST (Thu) From: sun!qubix!msc @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: 'Doctor' Who - (nf) >From: twt@uicsl.UUCP >????? What is Horology ????????????????? Is this a joke? The original statement that Dr. Who, a timelord, has a degree in horology was a joke and quite funny too. Horology is the art (or science) of making ... timepieces. >From the Tardis of Mark Callow msc@qubix.UUCP, decwrl!qubix!msc@Berkeley.ARPA ...{decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!decwrl!qubix!msc, ...{ittvax,amd70}!qubix!msc ------------------------------ Date: 10 Feb 1984 15:00:02 PST From: Subject: ZORK info request Cc: doug,scott Hello, science fiction lovers!! I am not sure if this is the right place to raise such a question, but here goes... My colleagues and I are avid Zork players, but we are somewhat dissatisfied with the command parsor in our version. We are running Version 2.2A. Is there anyone out there who can help us find a more current version with a better command parsor? Also, is there still(or was there ever, or is there(WHEW)) a "net.zorkplayers" for those of us who still haven't figured the whole thing out yet? Thanks in advance for all the info... "Dangerous" James Fanning ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 13 Feb 1984 12:07:54-PST From: decwrl!rhea!dosadi!binder (Wanted: A good five-cent nickel) From: Subject: Believable aliens... csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX brings up the most interesting question of all by asking what makes a believable alien. Rather then giving it in my own words, I suggest that he/she read Niven and Pournelle's The Mote in God's Eye. The aliens in that novel are singularly believable, perhaps the most believable I have seen in print or on film. One of the qualities of these aliens that go into their believability is pivotal to the story (isn't it always that way?), and the entire business is handled well. The book is long, so be ready for an extended session - I couldn't put it down the first time I read it. - Dick Binder decvax!decwrl!rhea!dosadi!binder ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Feb 84 07:19:02 pst From: allegra!scgvaxd!4ccvax!KUL@Berkeley Subject: old time religion Let us watch Ka.ka.pa.ull Frolic in her swimming pool Subjecting chaos to her rule And that's all right with me Dar Nushi! Dar Icus! Dar Enlil! Dar Sud! ------------------------------ Date: 23 Oct 83 6:36:19-PDT (Sun) From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd70!onyx!dual!zehntel!tektronix!tekcad!vic From: e!keithl @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Billion Dollar Space Programs I have posted an article about this subject in net.space, where I think this discussion belongs. See you there! Keith Lofstrom uucp: {ucbvax,decvax,chico,pur-ee,cbosg,ihnss}!teklabs!vice!keithl CSnet: keithl@tek ARPAnet:keithl.tek@rand-relay ------------------------------ Date: 17 Feb 84 12:42:08-PST (Fri) From: decvax!mcnc!unc!rentsch @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Re: 'Parsec' as a unit of time - (nf) In times when space warp travel is common, getting into and out of warp quickly might make a HUGE difference in terms of how long the trip takes, because the trip is much shorter. Seen in this light, saying that something was done in "under 17 parsecs" makes a lot of sense, no? Tim ------------------------------ Date: 17 Feb 84 2:43:08-PST (Fri) From: sun!qubix!steven @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Sure we can! >> If we can discuss the likes of Deryni, Darkover, Terry Brooks, >> and Tolkien in SF-Lovers, we can damned well discuss speculative >> physics relating to space travel. I should point out that there is one difference between "speculative physics relating to space travel", and "Deryni, Darkover, Terry Brooks, and Tolkien". And that is this: In all cases, the books that you have mentioned are internally self-consistant (i.e. there is no place where you can say "This part of the novel disagrees with this part"). That is not true with "FTL" drives. What most authors misunderstand about Einstein's theory of relativity is that it is not the ACT of moving through space that "makes time go slower", but rather that space and time are two components of the same thing. "Going through Hyperspace" would do absolutely nothing, because the very ACT of ARRIVING at a location before light would (given any frame of refrence), is the very ACT of going backwards through time. Thus, though is is possible for "Psychism" to exist, even "magic" (as long as it is in another universe), FTL cannot. This fact will not go away. Period. You might as well write 1000 novels based on Perpetual Motion machines, and have the same degree of truth in them as Star Wars, Star Trek, etc, etc, etc. Steven Maurer ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 27-Feb SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #37 *** EOOH *** Date: 27 Feb 84 1519-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #37 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 27 Feb 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 37 Today's Topics: Books - Bradley & Heinlein & Smith & Vernor Vinge & Story Requests, Films - Munchausen & Movie News & Star Trek III & Star Trek Question, Television - Questor (2 msgs) & Dr. Who ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 23 Feb 1984 01:55:36-EST From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX Subject: THE MANY-COLORED LAND; THENDARA HOUSE A recent submission attacked the pacing of THE MANY-COLORED LAND. I don't recall it taking as long as 150 pages to describe the leading contemporary characters, but however long it took was certainly reasonable; there are eight of them, and all of them are going to be important in the 1200 pages (est.; the last book isn't out yet) that follow. I'm looking forward to the conclusion of the work (title forgotten; out so far are tMCL, THE GOLDEN TORC, and THE UNBORN KING (which has a marvelous portrait of one of the characters which I could swear is cribbed from a portrait of one of the Medicis, matching a reference in the book). (NB I \don't/ have infinite patience; I was bored to death by the first Thomas Covenant book, went back after all the cheering, and gave up finally half way through the second.) Steven Maurer accuses Bradley of falling into the trap of excess politicization. First he's inaccurate about past books: Her Darkover novels have always been written with a bit of "feminine slant" (i.e. the plots center around: women forced to have children, women rebelling against the sexist society they live in, the cruelty of men, protagonists who are helpless in their fate, woman/woman relationships, etc. This leaves out the first 9 (at least) in the assemblage; most of these are routine adventure stories, but WINDS OF DARKOVER has a gutsy female protagonist and HERITAGE OF HASTUR was the beginning of a string of much solider books. Second, Peter Haldane was set up as a pig in THE SHATTERED CHAIN---it's obvious why Magda left him, and it's almost as obvious why Jaelle (whose upbringing in the Dry Towns has affected her far more than she likes to acknowledge) is infatuated with him (at least temporarily--in an essay published in the late 1970's Bradley says she certainly isn't expecting J to stay with "that turkey Peter Haldane" for long). Now I find it rather less believable that a dilute form of his attitudes should so permeate Terran Empire headquarters; although we have virtually no idea, even putting all the books together, what the Terran Empire is like, I doubt (for instance) that they would insist on calling Jaelle Mrs. Haldane, but that's less important. The entire book is about how one deals with borderline-to-completely unconscious mindsets---the obvious ones of the Terrans and the subtler but just as disabling ones of the Sisterhood. (Bradley got a \lot/ of flack for the scene in DARKOVER LANDFALL in which a female pilot was refused an abortion because children were vitally necessary; while she might not write that particular scene again she is still not a one-sided feminist.) As to Jaelle sticking with Peter in the face of maltreatment---can you gauge infatuation? The impression from THE SHATTERED CHAIN is that this is her first serious love. Look around you, and even in hotbeds of liberalism you will see many women (and not just ones acculturated to subordination) sticking with men who mistreat them (and vice versa). Moreover, how much of a sense of duty does Jaelle feel to the Sisterhood and to Darkover as a whole to bridge the gaps over which stiff-necked Comyn and patronizing Earth[men, mostly] sneer at each other. Equally important, how does she compare her position to Magda's? Envying her the social warmth of Thendara House (against the thermal warmth and social abstraction of Terran HQ), gradually realizing that the adjustments are as difficult for Magda (who, though she is trained to examine and accommodate to different cultures, is dealing with a group less used to such than the Terrans and not knowing how alien she is), possibly even feeling duty to (mixed with competitiveness with?) her oath daughter to hold up her end of the bridge as long as Magda holds up hers. THENDARA HOUSE is far from perfect, but it is not the maudlin diatribe described by Maurer. (My biggest complaint isn't anything previously mentioned, but the [almost] supernatural Dark Sisterhood that we get glimpses of, which in addition to being unnecessarily elliptical reads like a gigantic sequel hook.) ------------------------------ Date: 23 Feb 84 11:34:29 EST From: Don Provan@CMU-CS-A Subject: re: Heinlein dislike My dislike of Heinklein has nothing to do with his political ramblings. They don't help any, but since i tend to agree with the gist of his philosophy, i don't mind. What i really hate about Heinlein is watching him write about his sexual fantasies. At first it was just a normal attempt to get sex into the stories. Then i remember Farmer's Freehold: middle aged man after being married for some time finally gets good sex from a young attractive girl, happily losing his middle aged wife in a nuclear exchange. Then Stranger in a Strange land: the middle age man was smart enough not to get married, and has a bevy of young, attractive girls to have sex with. Then I Will Fear No Evil: an entire novel of sexual fantasy. When i read the one (i didn't even bother to remember the name) where the middle aged man is immortal, so ALL women want to have his baby, i decided enough was enough. It didn't help any that he gets to have sex with his twin daughters (or sisters? I can't remember, but they were 15 years old.). That's the last Heinlein i've read. I pick out books at random, so i don't know if this is really the cronology these books were written (though i seem to remember it is). Are there other books in between that don't exhibit these traits? provan@cmua ------------------------------ Date: 22 Feb 1984 1752-PST From: tom at LOGICON Subject: Re: One more by E.E. Smith Actually the original title of "Masters of the Vortex" was "Vortex Blasters", or something like that. Tom ------------------------------ Date: Thu 23 Feb 84 05:30:03-CST From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA Subject: "VORTEX" not a Doc Smith singleton ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Non-Lensman or Skylark Books by Doc Smith ^^^^^^^^^^ Although not in the main sequence, MASTERS OF THE VORTEX, aka THE VORTEX BLASTERS, counts as a Lensman book because it is set in that universe, and re-issues of the series generally include it, typically as a tag-along at the end. ------------------------------ Date: 22 Feb 1984 1745-PST From: tom at LOGICON Subject: True Names and others To those of you who enjoyed Vernor Vinge's cult classic "True Names" -take heart! The May Analog begins a 4-part serial by him that should really push your buttons, even though the plot is quite dissimilar. This is one to wait for - and to nominate for awards! (By-the-way, it's pronounced "VIN-gee.") Tom ------------------------------ Date: Thu 23 Feb 84 02:56-EST From: Marvin Minsky Subject: authors Anyone know who wrote these two stories? 1. There is a guerilla war, and there are nice little kids who are hungry and pathetic. When you take them home they blow up. Maybe Philip Dick or Damon Knight? 2. A story in which the aliens land, but all the scientists who try to communicate with them go mad because their ideas are too alien. Finally a business enterpreneur goes into the ship and makes contact with their businessman, and pulls off some kind of good deal. Because business must show profit and loss, however alien everything else is. Maybe Keith Laumer? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Feb 84 03:41 MST From: DBarker@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: This and that Re: comments about 1943 German film "Munchausen" - not entirely germane perhaps but I have a record of Furtwaengler conducting Bruckner live in Berlin in 1944 that I wouldn't part with for anything... ------------------------------ Date: 23 Feb 84 12:44:42 EST From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA Subject: News from the Front, Volume I--Movie News The following is garnered from a variety of sources, LOCUS, STARLOG and personal sources: WARP--a science fiction stage trilogy which spawned a comic book series has been optioned by Mark Victor and Michael Grais, best known for POLTERGEIST THE X-MEN--a $22 million Orion picture produced in association with Canada's Nelvana Studios. FIRE & ICE writers Roy Thomas and Gerry Conway will write the script. The storyline will reportedly follow closely the sequence beginning with Issue 139 in which Kitty Pryde joins the mutant team and will include a "pre-Dark Phoenix Jean Grey". I hope that all makes sense to you folks, I don't read the stuff, I just pass it on... DICK TRACY--Richard Benjamin will direct (or so it says here), Parmount/ Universal is making it, budget is slated at $12.5 million, and THE LATEST RUMOUR IS THAT CLINT EASTWOOD WILL STAR!!!!! FROM A VIEW TO A KILL--the title of the latest James Bond flick, to star Roger Moore. V--THE CONCLUSION started filming on December 21. It is promised by May, in the form of a six-hour telefilm, but there have been some production problems, so don't hold your breath. It will contain all of the folks from previous film--be they aliens or humans, and will run for six (!) hours. Rumour has it that the first film will be shown immediately before, making it a V-week to say the least! RED DAWN--about a Russian Invasion Of The USA. Stars Sandahl Bergman, Harry Dean Stanton and William Smith. Directed by John Milius. MAD MAX THREE--Mel Gibson will return!!!!! RETURN OF THE DEAD--Dan O'Bannon directs from his own script. No knowledge of what the relation is (if any) with certain other Dead films... METROPOLIS--Giorgio Moroder owns the rights to this movie, and is currently devising a new soundtrack with the talents of Kim Carnes, Billy Squier and others. Watchers of MTV and other music/video shows may have seen the recent "Radio Gaga" video by QUEEN which features much footage from Metropolis. To be continued... Frederick Paul Kiesche III ------------------------------ Date: 23 Feb 84 13:04:26 EST From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA Subject: STAR TREK III: THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK (SPOILER!!!!!) The following is garnered from a recent STARLOG article: The article reveals no major plot hints, but does show the following in the way of pictures: 1. A picture of Kirk and Sarek (Mark Lenard) in civilian clothing, in Kirk's apartment, with Sarek doing a "mind-touch" on Kirk. 2. A picture of McCoy, Chekov, Kirk, Scotty, and Sulu in civilian clothing, in a dark, foggy forest. They are all looking at something off-camera, and Kirk is aiming his phaser at it... 3. A picture of Kirk and McCoy in civilian clothing, Kirk is about to inject something into McCoy's arm. 4. A picture of Saavik (played by Robin Curtis) and David Marcus on THE GENESIS PLANET!!!!! 5. Kirk and Sarek (I say, but Mark Lenard looks remarkably healthy for a man who has been atomized on two separate occasions...) in Kirk's apartment. 6. The new Saavik receiving directions from Leonard Nimoy in his role as director. 7. James B. Sikking (probably familiar to most as "Howard Hunter" in HILL STREET BLUES) in the role of a starship commander who is "forced into The Search for Spock." In the article, the following hints were dropped: 1. A set being built of giant redwood trees... 2. Kim Ryusaki, who played a cadet in STII and others who played cadets will be back again as full-fledged members of the crew. 3. The Engineering set will not appear in this movie. 4. The Sick Bay set has been cut in half to make room for a new set, a futuristic bar which will NOT be on the Enterprise, but in San Francisco, on Earth. 5. We will see more of the "off duty" life of the characters. 6. On the stage where the Regula, Regula One and Ceti Alpha V sets were built is being constructed a large, multi-level set. The only thing completed by the time the article was written was a giant golden-helmeted head positioned against a jet-black background. 7. A giant Vulcan Temple. A GIANT VULCAN TEMPLE!!!!! Mark Lenard and Dame Judith Anderson appearing in scenes both "powerful and pivotal to the storyline". Hundreds (HUNDREDS!!!!!) of robed extras, including George Takei in Vulcan disguise (but not as himself, as a Vulcan extra...). 8. The Torpedo Room in STII, which was the Klingon Bridge in STI, is being rebuilt. Most likely it will be a Klingon Bridge again in STIII, as one of the main characters, Kruge (Christopher Lloyd) is a Klingon... See you all in line on June 1!!!!! Frederick Paul Kiesche III ------------------------------ Date: 23 Feb 1984 09:40:11-EST From: Robert.Zimmermann at CMU-EE-FARADAY Subject: Star Trek Question I was watching ST-TWOK the other day (we have cable, and it really is one of the best ST's made, anyway...) Savaak (sp?): If we enter the nebula, shields will be ineffective Spock: Sauce for the goose Savaak: Eh? Spock: The odds will be even. All right. What is 'sauce for the goose'? >From the oft times puzzled world of Robert Zimmermann UUCP: {...decvax!idis!mi-cec!cmu-cs-g!}raz@ampere ARPA: raz%ampere@cmu-cs-g ------------------------------ Date: 23 February 1984 08:44 est From: Gubbins.5581i2160 at RADC-MULTICS Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #34 Hutch, you missed the point of the conversation between Questor and the guard. The point is that it was a very poor conversation as Questor knew not how to converse properly, but thru his interaction, rapidly learned. By the time he (it) left, Questor had learned and was using tone inflections, pauses, pronouns. Remember (if only I can...) that a good part of his programming was never completed, one can assume conversational interaction was a part of the missing tapes. I believe Gene Roddenberry in an interview brought this point out, hence I became aware of its role, not being a big Questor fan myself. Cheers, Gern ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 22 Feb 1984 17:59:29-PST From: decwrl!rhea!prancr!saunders@Shasta Subject: Re: Questor Tapes In reply to a comment by ...!orca!shark!hutch @ Ucb-Vax: You should have kept watching the movie. Questor didn't speak very well at first. In fact, as I remember, the guard thought he was ill or something. He got better... John Saunders ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Feb 84 03:41 MST From: DBarker@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: This and that Re: Dr. Who's TARDIS - there would seem to be a head of steam building up behind a protest movement against the removal of the police box - the BBC are now saying that no firm decision has been made... ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 28-Feb SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #38 *** EOOH *** Date: 28 Feb 84 1306-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #38 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 28 Feb 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 38 Today's Topics: Books - Chalker (3 msgs) & Book News (2 msgs) & Playboy Science Fiction and Fantasy & A book Request & A Request Answered & Star Trek, Films - Star Trek (2 msgs), Games - News from the Front, Television - Dr Who, Miscellaneous - Sure We Can ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 23 Feb 1984 13:19-PST From: Tom Wadlow Subject: Re: The Day of the JackL. I have usually enjoyed Chalker, but I'm afraid that he is moving a bit too much toward the "Book Five of the FOOBAR Trilogy*" syndrome for my tastes. When he confines himself to a single book, he is at his best, but his recent multi-volume works left me a bit cold. Some books are just so full of ideas that they beg to be stretched. Chalker's books have some really interesting concepts, but wading through the packing material to get at them is something I can live without. --Tom * Yes, I know the meaning of the word 'Trilogy', so no flaming mail, please. This is not a typo, as anyone who has ever read Farmer's Riverworld 'Trilogy' will understand. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Feb 84 18:47:35 EST From: Morris M. Keesan Subject: Re: "unpublished or impossible to find" Chalker books "An Informal Biography of Scrooge McDuck" is real, although it may be hard to find. I have a copy packed away somewhere. I remember it as being a very small book, and stapled rather than any fancier binding (paper covers). The cover illustration is a picture of Scrooge McDuck without a face -- that is, it's a picture of a hat, a pair of glasses, etc. -- everything except the duck. They couldn't use an image of Scrooge himself, because the rights to the character belong to Disney Studios, who refused to allow it to be used. I believe that the book was published by the small publishing house that Chalker is part owner of (somebody help me out here -- I don't remember the name -- I think it's either Mirage Press or Advent Press), and I have no idea whether it's still in print. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Feb 1984 11:38:17-EST From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX To: kiesche@ru-blue Subject: AN INFORMAL BIOGRAPHY OF SCROOGE MCDUCK Does indeed exist, although it was printed a \long/ time ago; it may have been the first [book] from Mirage Press, which is what Chalker originally called his fanzine [operation]; Mirage also brought out at least the later edition of Feghoots (80+ stories, foreword by Poul Anderson, published 1976). The MITSFS used to have a copy, but it has been effectively out of print for some time (I think Chalker may have gotten into trouble with Disney over it.) ------------------------------ Date: 23 Feb 84 12:33:27 EST From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA Subject: News from the Front--Book News, Volume I Here is a compilation of recently discovered book news, garnered from such sources as LOCUS, STARLOG, FANTASY/SPACE GAMER, etc., as well as personal sources... Deathbird Stories--by Harlan Ellision, reissued by Bluejay Books for $6.95. The End of the Dream--by Philip Wylie, the "classic" disaster novel, has been reissued by DAW for $2.25, with a special introduction by John Brunner. 1984--by George Orwell, has been reissued by Signet in a special 1984 edition, priced $2.95, with a preface by Walter Cronkite. The Penultimate Truth--by Philip K. Dick, Bluejay Books, $6.95. The Foundation Trilogy--by Isaac Asimov, issued in one volume from Del Rey Books for $8.95. Star Trek III: The Search for Spock--by Vonda McIntyre, will be out from Timescape in JUNE, not APRIL, as they had previously planned...sigh, I guess the secrets will be safe for a few more weeks... Players of Gor--by John Norman, DAW, $3.50 (!!!) V--there will be three V books released in the near future. Two will be based on the movies (i.e., the first movie that we've all seen, and the second which is in process). The third will be written solely on the author's own steam and will show what happened on the East Coast of the USA while all the action going on out West was happening...Authors involved will be Anne Crispin and Howard Weinstein, both alumni of the Timescape/Pocket STAR TREK line. World's End--by Joan Vinge, Bluejay Books, $13.95. Heretics of Dune--by Frank Herbert, Putnam's, $16.95. Extra(Ordinary) People--by Joanna Russ, St. Martin's, $10.95. The Practice Effect--by David Brin, Bantam, no price listed. The Ghost Light--by Fritz Leiber, Berkley Books, no price listed. The Wild Shore--by Kim Stanley Robinson, Ace, $2.95. The Integral Trees--by Larry Niven, Del Rey, $14.95. The Flight of the Dragonfly--by Robert L. Forward, Timescape, $15.95. 1984: Spring, A Choice of Futures--by Arthur C. Clarke, Del Rey, $14.95. Ambassador of Progress--by Walter Jon Williams, Tor, $2.95. Chaos in Lagrangia--by Mack Reynolds and Dean Ing, Tor, $2.95. Wizard's Eleven--by Sheri S. Tepper, Ace, $2.50. Hit or Myth--by Robert Asprin, Starblaze, $6.95. Across the Sea of Suns--by Gregory Benford, Timescape, $15.95. Frontier of the Dark--by A. Bertram Chandler, Ace, $2.75. Kelly Country--by A. Bertram Chandler, Penguin, $5.95. STAR TREK III--William Rotsler has finished THREE of his FOUR book contract of books based on STAR TREK III. He is sworn to secrecy... Finally, how many of you saw the television commercials for 2010: ODYSSEY TWO? No, I don't mean commercials for the movie --commercials for the book! They were shown on the three major networks, various smaller networks, and the various commercial cable stations. It is about sixty seconds long, features some cheesy model shots, some good computer animation, and the requisite stirring music. Good stuff. DISCLAIMER: The author assumes no responsibility towards the accuracy of the prices listed above. Books are not listed in any particular order nor is mention made of any particular release date. Frederick Paul Kiesche III ------------------------------ Date: 23 Feb 84 17:05:15 EST From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA Subject: NEWS FLASH!!! NEWS FLASH!!! 1. Julian May's THE NON-BORN KING is out in paperback from Del Rey, for $3.50, featuring a nifty cover by Michael Whealen. 2. L. Ron Hubbard's BATTLEFIELD EARTH is also out in paperback for $4.95 (!!!!). On the cover it states: "Coming Soon As A Major Motion Picture". Will Pittsburgh ever be the same? Frederick Paul Kiesche III ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 24 Feb 1984 00:33:51-PST From: decwrl!rhea!vortex!perch!leslie@Shasta Subject: PLAYBOY SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY In the 1960s (and maybe 70's and 80's, I don't read Playboy), Playboy published a number of sf&f in the mag, then anthologised into at least 1 h/c book. The copy I have, whose date page has disappeared, includes the following stories: The Fly Geaorge Langelaan Blood brother Charles Beaumont Love, Incorporated Robert Sheckley A Foot in the Door Bruce Jay Friedman The Vacation Ray Bradbury The Never Ending Penny Bernard Wolfe Bernie the Faust William Tenn A Man for the Moon Leyland Webb The Noise Ken W. Purdy The killer in the TV set Bruce Jay Friedman I remember Babylon Arthur C. Clarke Word of Honour Robert Bloch John Grant's Little Angel Walt Grove The Fiend Frederick Pohl Hard Bargin Alan E. Nourse The Nail and the Oracle Theodore Sturgeon After Henry Slesar December 28th Theodore L. Thomas Spy Story Robert Sheckley Punch Frederick Pohl The Crooked Man Charles Beaumont Who Shall Dwell H.C.Neal Double Take Jack Finney ! see P.S. Examination Day Henry Slesar The Mission Hugh Nissenson Waste Not, Want Not John Atherton The Dot-Dash Bird Bernard Wolfe The Sensible Man Avram Davidson Souvenir J.G.Ballard Puppet Show Fredric Brown The Room Ray Russell Dial "F" for Frankenstein Arthur C. Clarke Are there any more anthologies like this? This must be one of the best collections I've ever read! What present-day magazines have this calibre of stories? OMNI started well but I read an OMNI anthology or two, they were in mag format themselves and I don't think they've published books, at least not in the U.K. Did Playboy publish any more? I'd love to know. andy leslie P.S. Double Take is the short story that begat a GREAT book! ( and a POOR film) Time after Time Shmaltzy but fun. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Feb 1984 1501 PST From: Big Don Baker Subject: A GOOD BOOK I AM TRYING TO LOCATE A BOOK READ LONG LONG AGO...AUTHOR UNKNOWN.. PUBLISHER UNKNOW....TITLE "LIGHTNING IN THE EAST"....HELP ------------------------------ Date: 27 Feb 1984 1736-PST From: tom@LOGICON Subject: Minksy's author query In reference to the second story mentioned, about the alien businessmen; the story is "Firewater," by William Tenn, which appeared in Astounding Science Fiction (ASF) ca. 1953. (Trivia answer by Mike Gannis) ------------------------------ Date: 23 Feb 84 18:34:34 EST From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] Subject: Visit to a Strange planet "Visit To a Strange Planet Revisited " was in the original New Voyages, that is Volume 1. The original "Visit to a Strange Planet " was published in the original Star Trek fanzine Spockanalia. As far as I know, it is impossible to get any more copies, even at Star Trek Conventions. It may barely be possible to get something from the original authors of the zine. I believe it stopped running in the mid-70's. Trekkies of the universe, unite! /amqueue ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 22 Feb 1984 17:58:57-PST From: decwrl!rhea!prancr!saunders@Shasta Subject: Star Trek II Question Does anyone understand how rank, department, etc are reflected in the new uniforms? It used to be that shirt color determined department, and sleeve stripes (or lack thereof) determined rank. It now looks like the metallic-looking insignia on the shoulder determines rank, but I can't make sense out of the shirt colors. Kirk, Spock, and Terrel all wear white. OK, so that indicates ship command. Chekov and Uhura wear grey. Are they both commanders? Then why does McCoy wear green, when there is one shot in his office with a sign saying "Cmdr L. McCoy"? It looks pretty much like all the Lieutenants wear red, someone (ensigns) wear black, but why does Sulu alone (as far as I saw), wear orange? By the way, I couldn't quite make out Sulu's rank insignia. Is he a captain or a commander? The novelization has him as a captain taking the Enterprise help out of courtesy and as an excuse to get back on the Enterprise. John Saunders PRANCR::SAUNDERS ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 27 Feb 1984 20:57-PST Subject: sauce for the goose From: meier@ISL at Sumex-Aim In ST-II, the following lines were read. Savaak (sp?): If we enter the nebula, shields will be ineffective Spock: Sauce for the goose Savaak: Eh? Spock: The odds will be even. The reference is to a cliche. "What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander". The implication is that both starships will be "in the same boat". This cliche is usually used to indicate that penalties, rules, and restrictions should be administered equally, especially between sexes. This cliche is probably no longer in frequent use due to the fact that it was abused heavily by NOW during the early years of its existence. Bob (isl!meier@shasta) P.S. ::= ::= ::= ::= ------------------------------ Date: 23 Feb 84 12:52:56 EST From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA Subject: News from the Front, Volume I--Games The following is garnered from SPACE/FANTASY GAMER and personal sources: RINGWORLD: THE ROLE-PLAYING GAME (Chaosium)--this game has been delayed by dinosaurs and "bad blood" which resulted in the firing of the original designer (Rudy Kraft) and the hiring of a new group (John Hewitt, Sherman Kahn, Sandy Petersen). Release date is questionable--some rumours place it at "early 1984" and others place it at "summer 1985". Whatever the release date is, this is one project that I am looking forward to. Apparently Niven has been involved. The game will be designed around Chaosium's Basic Role Playing system, which was the basis for CALL OF CTHULHU and others. Cover painting will be by RALPH MC QUARRIE, and will depict the Ringworld arch, with giant grass-eater grazing below floating cities. Although Chaosium has not disclosed the cost of the painting, Steve Perrin has said that it was "far more than we ever paid for a cover." THE LAST STARFIGHTER--a "micro adventure" from FASA will be released this summer, based on this movie. BATTLESTAR GALACTICA--one boardgame in May and two "micro adventures" from FASA in the summer are being based on this venerable (so to speak) television series. STAR TREK THREE--a variety of "micro adventures" and supplements for FASA's STAR TREK: THE ROLE-PLAYING GAME will be coming this summer. Happy Gaming!!!! Frederick Paul Kiesche III ------------------------------ Date: 26 Feb 1984 12:58 EST (Sun) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" To: pur-ee!uiucdcs!futrelle%Ucb-Vax@MIT-MC Subject: Official DrWho Scarf - (nf) Question: would anyone know if the pattern uses British #9 needles, or American #9 needles? ------------------------------ Date: 23 Feb 1984 1817-PST From: Mike Gannis (offnet) at LOGICON Subject: Re: Sure we can! Steven Maurer (steven@ucb-vax) calims as "fact" the impossibility ("Period.") of FTL travel, based on Eisteinian Relativity. Great! As long as there is identical correspondence between relativity and reality. But suppose not? Superluminal velocities *are* permitted in theories that postulate a preferred frame of reference. We can't yet rule this out; indeed, there are some hints (e.g. Mach's principle) that this could be the case. Would you class as fantasy all stories involving sub-c time dilation effects simply because they aren't predicted by Newtonian physics? Newtonian physics is "true" - it adequately describes the world around you, doesn't it? Besides - are you claiming that the Darkover stories are entirely self-consistent? Mike Gannis ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 1-Mar SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #39 *** EOOH *** Date: 1 Mar 84 1423-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #39 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 1 Mar 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 39 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein & Playboy Press & Catching Up & A Story Query & Time After Time vs Time and Again, Films - Star Trek (6 msgs) & Star Wars (5 msgs), Television - Dr. Who ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 1 Mar 84 07:48:52 pst From: allegra!scgvaxd!4ccvax!GSILBERBE@Berkeley Subject: Re: re: Heinlein dislike You might try The Number of the Beast. There is not as much emphasis on sex, and the middle-aged man stays with an older woman. (The partner-swapping does get going again in the last part of the book, though.) --Glenn Silberberg Claremont, Cal. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Feb 84 17:49:49 EST From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] Subject: Playboy press There was at least one other sf anthology put out by Playboy Press: "Stories from the S File". This is composed of stories from authors whose last name begins with S, such as Sturgeon, Sheckley, Slesar, and others I can't remember. I got my copy at a flea market in the mid-late 70's, so I have no idea of its availability. Supposedly, the playboy people noticed that in their file of sf stories, the one containing stories from authors whose name began with S was the largest, and decided to use them only. A few titles that I can remember: The Nail and the Oracle Can You Feel Anything When I Do This? The Parade The Stew The last title I am not sure of; I think Sturgeon's "If All Men Were Brothers, Would You Let One Marry Your Sister" is in it too, but I'm not sure. There are lots more stories in it...... forgetfully yours /amqueue ------------------------------ From: Steve Platt Subject: A number of short notes Date: Mon, 27 Feb 84 00:15 EST ...catching up with a month or so of SFL can be tiring! A few things stand out in mind, or at least on the notepaper I keep handy... Stephen King: Avoid "The Werewolf", a novella with illustrations by Berni Wrightson. The illos are moderate quality for "modern comics", the story is at best a *1/2 - ** effort (not one of his best, but maybe one of his worst). I'm not sure which is the worst, the shortness of the text, the quality of the text, or that I wasted $28 on this thing! Stephen King: I just received a notice from Donald M. Grant Publishers (West Kingston, RI 02892) -- The Dark Tower: The Gunslinger is going into another printing, still only $20. A ****1/2, but only because I don't give out *****'s. Mark Rogers: Also in the Grant promo: The Adventures of Samurai Cat will be out soon ($20, deluxe edition $50). (Rogers does both the art and the text.) (This is another book for Cat SF people to notice.) If you haven't been following the adventures of Miaowara Tomokato, this is a good place to start. If you don't like Asprin's Myth(ing puns) series, skip this. I'm ordering a copy this week. Larry Niven: His universe. Does anyone remember Niven's pre- Ringworld proposal "Down in Flames"? Can anyone access Niven for permission to upload it to the net? Moon of Endor revisited: At SIGGRAPH last year, ILM showed a short film loosely titled "How we did it with particle systems for SW:RoTJ and ST:TWoK". During the movie, there was a definite and specific reference to "Endor's Moon". It does seem nonsensical to refer to the moon of a planet long out of existence as "the Moon of Endor" (no language barrier here because it really isn't English they are speaking: we can assume that it has been syntactically translated to English as well as psychological reorientation to avoid stupid misconceptions). We can assume they are on the moon of some body, and that body (Endor) still exists. "The Right Stuff": Just saw it last weekend. Go see it. It is probably the only movie up for Academy Awards which makes no pretention of airy artistic qualities, deep character studies, or personal growth. Just fun, mixed in with some semi-history. P.S. This is not a John Glenn film. It's a Chuck Yeager film. Another note: I saw "The Dresser" the following evening. While also an excellent film, I don't recommend the pair as a twin billing. They just don't mesh well. Asprin: "Hit or Myth", the fourth Skeeve book. I like Phil Foglio illos better than Freas illos. I don't think I ever liked Freas illos. Asprin is holding out well -- the fourth volume is no better or worse than the first (which keeps it in the "light reading" category). Quite surprising, considering what happens to most series by this number of volumes Kotzwinkle (William): "Trouble in Bugland". More light fiction -- my dissertation must be going well since I am unable to read anything even remotely dense. "...a tribute to... Sherlock Holmes and... Dr. Watson." "There is, however, one slight divergence from the original--Kotzwinkle's protagonists are all insects." Amusing nonserious tales following Inspector Mantis and his sidekick Dr. Hopper. Anyone else find anything unusual? -steve ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Feb 84 06:21 MST From: DBarker@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Story Query The story about the cute kids who kill you when you get them home is definitely (that's right deryk, stick your neck out) Philip Dick - will check title tonight. I seem to recall there being 3 types of enemy robot of which the last (and before the punchline undiscovered) are the cute kids - ring any bells? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Feb 84 16:04 EST From: Jonathan Ostrowsky Subject: Time After Time/Time and Again In V9 #38, Andy Leslie reprinted a list of sf that was originally published in Playboy and later anthologized (by Playboy Press, I assume). The stories included the following: Double Take Jack Finney ! see P.S. P.S. Double Take is the short story that begat a GREAT book! (and a POOR film) Time after Time Shmaltzy but fun. If memory serves me correctly, the Finney book in question is "Time and Again", a fine time-travel novel that features a wonderfully detailed recreation of another time and place (New York City in the late 19th century). "Time After Time", a Nicholas Meyer film, is in no way related to the Finney book. The movie takes place primarily in modern-day San Francisco; the plot concerns Jack the Ripper's escape from Victorian London via H.G. Wells's time machine, and Wells's pursuit of him. I disagree with Andy on this film: although the plot is highly implausible, the photography and acting (Malcolm McDowell, the wonderful Mary Steenburgen, and David Warner) are first-rate, and Meyer creates a high level of suspense. All in all, one of my favorite fairy tales. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Feb 84 20:42:18 EST From: Marla Subject: Answer to ST Question... To add my two cents to the hundreds of pennies that will undoubtedly pour in in answer to this -- "...shields will be ineffectual." "Sauce for the goose" ....is sauce for the gander. In effect, Spock was telling Saavek that whatever would affect the Enterprise would be affecting the other ship as well, putting them both at the same (dis)advantage. "The odds will be even." I suppose the quote "what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander" refers to when two different things/people are in the same situation, or are receiving the same treatment. Marla ------------------------------ Date: 28 February 1984 0836-est From: Roz Subject: Re: ("Sauce for the goose") SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #37 Date: 23 Feb 1984 09:40:11-EST From: Robert.Zimmermann at CMU-EE-FARADAY Subject: Star Trek Question I was watching ST-TWOK the other day (we have cable, and it really is one of the best ST's made, anyway...) Savaak (sp?): If we enter the nebula, shields will be ineffective Spock: Sauce for the goose Savaak: Eh? Spock: The odds will be even. All right. What is 'sauce for the goose'? >From the oft times puzzled world of Robert Zimmermann UUCP: {...decvax!idis!mi-cec!cmu-cs-g!}raz@ampere ARPA: raz%ampere@cmu-cs-g We've (my family) always used that phrase to mean: "It doesn't matter...that's extraneous or unneeded". (Carry-over from the days when goose was THE main dish for special/holiday meals...where there was always so much food that sauce for the goose as almost "too much"!) Roz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Feb 84 11:14 EST From: Barry Margolin Subject: Re: Star Trek: Sauce for the goose "Sauce for the goose" is short for the expression "what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander," meaning that both of them will be at the same disadvantage. Of course, the way the scene actually turns out, a more appropriate expression would be "one man's food is another man's poison." barmar ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 28 Feb 1984 08:00:29-PST From: decwrl!rhea!parsec!turner@Shasta Subject: Reply SF-L 9:37 "What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander [same species, male]" is an old saying indicating that prevailing circumstances apply equally to everyone who finds himself in those circumstances. It may more often be used to assert that one party should be satisfied with what satisfies another party, I'm not real clear on the connotations. Spock may well have been playing on the notion that Khan's goose was cooked if Enterprise's was. MY problem is: does anybody think there's really a sensible explanation for the nebula disabling the screens? Does it react with the particles it defends against, thus setting off vision-obscuring fireworks or draining away energy? P.S. I hope that nebula was more convincing on the big screen (or ^$^ ...). ------------------------------ Date: 28 Feb 1984 1056-EST From: Wang Zeep Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #37 "sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander" "Whatever is good (or bad) for one antagonist is equally good (or bad) for the other" --from the English-English phrasebook of Wang Zeep ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 28 Feb 1984 14:59:45-PST From: decwrl!rhea!spider!lewis@Shasta Subject: Sauce for the goose... The complete saying is: What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Its connotation is: "A is to B as A is to B'". This is an assertion of similarity of relationship. I was going to say that it meant: if x is good for A then it is good for A', but the saying is actually more general than just "good for". As a matter of fact it can be restated in the following appalling form: If B' lies within a neighborhood of B which is of measure less than epsilon, then F(A') will lie within a neighborhood of F(A) which is of measure less than delta. Now I don't mean to say that anyone who said this in the 18th century had the fundamental theorem of calculus in mind. I just mean that this old saying expresses a vastly simple idea that is so simple we can fully express it in mathematical terminology, unlike most other meaningful, colloquial sentences. Suford Lewis decwrl!rhea!spider!lewis@shasta ------------------------------ Date: 27 Feb 84 16:06:21-PST (Mon) From: hplabs!intelca!t4test!chip @ Ucb-Vax Subject: The Price We Pay If you've ever wondered how much of those TV special events is event and how much is filler, I've got the answer. For the Sunday showing of Star Wars, there were approximately 33.5 minutes of commercials during the movie. This number does not include the segments before and after the movie itself. As I see it, these did not interrupt the presentation of the film. However, it does include the comments which were inserted just before commercials. Fred Flintstone? Give me a break. Well, at least they didn't have John Denver doing any of them. Chip Rosenthal, Intel/Santa Clara {pur-ee,hplabs,ucbvax!amd70,ogcvax!omsvax}!intelca!t4test!chip ------------------------------ Date: 22 Feb 84 10:40:02-PST (Wed) From: ucbcad!tektronix!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!fluke!ron @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: It *is NOT* Endor! - (nf) After the rebels are allowed to fly their stolen shuttle, Tiderium, thru the shield, Darth returns to the Death Star to advise the Emperor of the situation. Darth's exact line is: "A small rebel force has penetrated the shield and landed on Endor." (The Emperor replies, "Yes, I know." Darth: "My son is with them...") Based on Darth's first line, it would appear that the moon IS Endor. (And perhaps it is serving as a SENTRY moon, since it holds the field generator...) I've not read the book, so don't know how the dialog in ROTJ compares with the paperback... ------------------------------ Date: 27 Feb 84 5:31:46-PST (Mon) From: decvax!dartvax!kenv @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Edited Star Wars?? After watching Star Wars last night on T.V., I got to wondering if there was any editing.... I think I spotted two places but I'm not quite sure.... 1) In the Rebel base, doesn't Luke meet Biggs before they get to the Death Star? 2) Wasn't Princess Leia's awarding a medal to Chewie after the Death Star was blown up ommitted? Maybe my memory is faulty, but I seem to remember seeing both of those scenes at the theater. Can anyone tell me if I am hallucinating or not??? Ken Varnum (..decvax!dartvax!kenv) ------------------------------ Date: 28 Feb 84 20:42:20-PST (Tue) From: ihnp4!ihuxa!trough @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Edited Star Wars??? I too didn't notice any missing scenes in CBS's Star Wars. However, I did notice the extra titles "episode ??" and "A New Hope" (sorry, I should know which episode (IV??), but I'd rather not get it wrong). Anyway, those were not in the prints that I saw in theaters. Chris Scussel Bell Labs Naperville, Illinois ------------------------------ Date: 28 Feb 84 9:29:25-PST (Tue) From: decvax!genrad!grkermit!masscomp!clyde!akgua!psuvax!starner @ From: Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Edited Star Wars?? I was unable to discover anything that was different in the TV Version. Chewie did not get a medal and Luke didn't meet Biggs (although I think both of these were done in the novel and Luke did meet Biggs in the National Public Radio adaption). Mark L. Starner Pennsylvania State University {allegra, burdvax, akgua, ihnp4}!psuvax!starner ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 28 Feb 1984 04:54:01-PST From: decwrl!rhea!raven1!bluejay@Shasta Subject: Dr. Who's TARDIS Does anybody know who we should be sending letters to to protest changing Dr. Who's TARDIS? I'd like to throw in my two cents worth. - Bluejay Adametz Tue 28-FEB-1984 07:52 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 4-Mar SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #40 *** EOOH *** Date: 4 Mar 84 2006-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #40 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 4 Mar 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 40 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein & Smith & Book Request & The Reluctant King, Films - Authors and Films & "Peter Pan" & Dark Star, Television - Edited Star Wars?? (3 msgs), Miscellaneous - FTL and Special Relativity & SF Cons List ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 1 Mar 84 13:25:47 est From: Beth Gazouleas my first exposure to science fiction was Heinlein. I still think The Puppet Masters is one of the best invasion stories i've ever read. but his later work is almost impossible to read. in Stranger in a Strange Land his middle-aged protaganist (jubal harshaw) says,"nine out of ten times when a woman is raped it's her own fault." i find this view extremely offensive, and it's only one example of Heinlein's blatant sexism. not to mention the fact that his later works are just plain boring. in Time Enough For Love we spend the entire book listening to Lazarus Long pontificate. i never even tried to read The Number of The Beast, or Friday. i'm very disappointed, because he writes so well, but the stories get lost in all the politics and endless discussion. beth ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 2 Mar 1984 13:27:21-PST From: decwrl!rhea!mrvax!ddb (DAVID DYER-BENNET MRO1-2/L14 DTN From: 231-4076) Subject: Doc smith books and clones There are still some E.E. Smith books, and clones, that haven't been listed recently: Subspace Encounter is a sequel to Subspace Explorers, truly written by Smith, but just recently published. Masters of the Vortex (a.k.a. The Vortex Blaster) has been mentioned, but without much information. It is set in the lensman universe, but involves completely different characters and problems than the actual lensman novels. It is currently marketed as a book in the lensman series, which is somewhat misleading. The Stephen Goldin clones of Smith (D'Alembert series) started from real Smith stories and notes. The US and British editions of Best of E. E. Doc Smith have a story which is essentially the first half of the first book. I think these are much better than the David A. Kyle clones (Dragon Lensman, Lensman from Rigel, Z Lensman). I think the Kyle books border on unreadable, and I'm a fanatic Smith fan. Then there's the Lord Tedric stuff.... my library doesn't live in the same building with this terminal. More details on request (this also is based on real Smith published during his lifetime). I get a feeling of deja-vu; haven't I parsed this output before? David Dyer-Bennet DEC Marlboro ARPA: decwrl!rhea!mrvax!ddb@{berkeley | shasta} UUCP: {allegra|decvax|ihnp4|mordor|purdue|shasta| ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!mrvax!ddb ------------------------------ Date: 2 March 1984 0809-est From: Roz Subject: Re: "dangerous children" (SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #39) This is a story (book?) request. Back in the nether reaches of time (MY childhood!) I read a story (?) about children and population control. The story line went something like this: a couple decides they want children; they have to apply to the government (?) for permission; the government has a "child-trial-program" where prospective parents are allowed to try-out having a child in the house and how they like being parents; of course, the parents decide (ALWAYS!) not to have children--since the trial children are behaving in the worst possible ways at all times; seems there was a "kicker"...(take your choice:) 1) the children were really robots, 2) it wasn't the government, but aliens, and/or 3) the children were midgets acting like "monster-kids"! Anybody remember who, what, etc? Thanks. Roz ------------------------------ Date: 27 Feb 84 20:37:11-PST (Mon) From: decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!greg @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: The Reluctant King: Vol I? - (nf) Hang in there; it's possible to find the book. I had to wait almost two months to find the first volume, but I finally located it. Now I can't remember where I hid volumes two and three so I wouldn't read them...... ------------------------------ Date: 28 Feb 84 1:52:01-PST (Tue) From: hplabs!zehntel!berry @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Re: authors and films - (nf) In article <597@ihuxq.UUCP> amigo2@ihuxq.UUCP (John Hobson) writes: >Didn't Asimov write Fantastic Voyage? Well, his autobiography Asimov admits writing the 'book' of Fantastic Voyage, but he was constrained to follow the plot exactly. He had to fight like hell just to get them to let him remove the submarine from the man's body ('But Dr. A, the sub was, like, crushed, y'know?'). His conclusion was that he would never do another novelization again no matter how much money they offered him, and the only GOOD part of the whole experience was meeting Raquel Welch. Berry Kercheval Zehntel Inc. (ihnp4!zehntel!zinfandel!berry) (415)932-6900 ------------------------------ Date: 27 Feb 84 8:54:39-PST (Mon) From: hplabs!zehntel!dual!decwrl!lipman @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Odd couple From: nacho::lynch (And now for something completely different...) Talk about s-t-r-a-n-g-e: NPR's Morning Edition reported this morning that Steven Spielberg may direct a film of "Peter Pan" starring -- are you ready? -- Michael Jackson. BEEEE-ZARRE! -- Bill Lynch USPS: Digital Equipment Corp / ZKO2-1/M11 110 Spit Brook Road / Nashua, NH 03082 Tele: (603) 881-2837 UUCP: {decvax,allegra,ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!nacho!lynch ARPA: decwrl!rhea!nacho!lynch@{Berkeley,SU-Shasta} ------------------------------ Date: 28 Feb 84 1:51:45-PST (Tue) From: hplabs!zehntel!berry @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Re: Dark Star - (nf) I second Rob Warnocks recommendation (if you can call it that) of 'Battle beyond the Stars' With Robert Vaughn. One of the funniest parts is the way Vaughn RECREATES the role he played in 'The Magnificent Seven', complete with the black leather glove he carefully pulls on before using his blaster/six-gun. Hilarious, if, as Rob warns, you're in the mood for it. Berry Kercheval Zehntel Inc. (ihnp4!zehntel!zinfandel!berry) (415)932-6900 ------------------------------ Date: 1 Mar 1984 18:36 EST (Thu) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" To: decvax!dartvax!kenv@Ucb-Vax Subject: Edited Star Wars?? I don't think anything was wrong with your memory. While I didn't notice the first cut, I did notice the second, and, I think, they also cut some of the dialogue either between Obi Wan and Solo on the Falcon, or between Obi Wan and Vader later, I'm not sure which. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Feb 84 12:40:57-PST (Wed) From: ihnp4!ihuxt!smeier @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Edited Star Wars??? I don't recall seeing "Episode IV: A New Hope" at the original release of Star Wars, but I have definitely seen it at theaters during later releases. It also appears on the videotape I have seen, and on HBO. They must have stuck it on when they decided to make "Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back." I think the CBS showing was fully intact, however, I found all the little speeches by CBS "personalities" about their reactions and memories of Star Wars rather annoying and distracting. I mean, who cares what Kate Jackson or Valerie Bertinelli thought about the movie, or about anything at all, for that matter? ------------------------------ Date: 29 Feb 84 7:13:58-PST (Wed) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!ut-sally!utastro!bill @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Edited Star Wars??? I thought that they had left out some of the captions in the bar scene. It appears they left in only the captions of the individual that Han Solo blew away. Is my memory right on this? Bill Jefferys 8-% Astronomy Dept, University of Texas, Austin TX 78712 (USnail) {ihnp4,kpno,ctvax}!ut-sally!utastro!bill (uucp) utastro!bill@ut-ngp (ARPANET) ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 29 Feb 1984 02:41-PST Subject: FTL and Special Relativity From: meier@ISL at Sumex-Aim Steven Maurer and Mike Gannis have indicated that Special Relativity disallows FTL travel. As far as I am aware, the theory indicates that mass, energy and information cannot travel AT the speed of light. I would appreciate any correction. I have felt that many authors have considered the problems of FTL well. "Doc" Smith used an inertialess drive, which avoided the problem of mass crossing the light lines (though I'm not sure how reasonable his treatment of the friction with intersteller gas was). Many authors have postulated a "jump" to FTL similar to the quantum "tunnelling" effect. Other authors, such as Larry Niven(?) in "Maelstrom" postulated a rotating gravimetric field that could be kept in balance so that tidal forces were not catastrophic. If one could view a spaceship travelling FTL one would see it reduce its speed when it fired its engines to push it in the direction that it was travelling. In one sense this could be called travel backward in time, but the equations of motion don't depend on the direction of time. As the spaceship continues firing, its mass increases and so does its entropy. If entropy is used as the indicater of time (hence cause and effect) then entropy is seen to be increasing in the normal fashion. The pilot in the spaceship would feel that all is normal, except that he would be amazed as you read this message backwards and at a continually decreasing rate (hence entropy continues to rise). A time-space diagram is divided by the light lines into three separate regions, the Absolute Future, the Absolute Past, and the Absolute Elsewhen. \ ^ time / \ | / \ | / B \ ABSOLUTE / A \ FUTURE / \ | / \ | / \ | / ABSOLUTE \|/ ABSOLUTE space >-----------------------+-----------------------> ELSEWHEN /|\ ELSEWHEN / | \ E / | \ / | \ D /ABSOLUTE \ C / PAST \ / | \ / | \ / ^ \ Travel faster than light would be indicated on such a diagram by a slope less than that of light (such as from A to B). The dilation factor goes to zero on the light lines (or any parallel line), which is why nonzero mass, energy, or information do not propagate at the speed of light. If any world line (track of some particle on this diagram) must be continuous and smooth then it is geometrically impossible for any particle to travel between the ABSOLUTE ELSEWHEN and the ABSOLUTE PAST or FUTURE without going parallel to the light lines. However if a world line can be 'bent' (such as C D E) so that it is continuous, yet has a discontinuous slope, then it would be possible to travel from the ABSOLUTE ELSEWHEN to the ABSOLUTE FUTURE without going parallel to the light lines. Such discontinuities in the ratio between distance and time (speed) would be analagous to the discontinuities in the ratio between orbital energy change and time (spin) encountered in quantum mechanics. Alternatively, if general relativity can be assumed correct, then a spinning black hole might be used to effect a 'bend' since it has an event horizon (light lines) that doesn't intersect the singularity (NOW). (For a more detailed desciption see "Gravitation" by Mizner, Thorne, and Wheeler.) ------------------------------ Date: 1 Mar 1984 2153-PST From: Zellich@OFFICE-3 (Rich Zellich) Subject: SF Cons list moved File CONS.TXT has been moved from OFFICE-3, and will now be available on the SRI-NIC host in file CONS.TXT -- Also, requests for copies of the file, updates to the list, requests for update-notice mailing list changes, etc., should be addressed to ZELLICH@SRI-NIC in the future instead of ZELLICH@OFFICE-3 or RICH.GVT@OFFICE-3. Cheers, Rich ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 4-Mar SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #41 *** EOOH *** Date: 4 Mar 84 2028-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #41 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 4 Mar 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 41 Today's Topics: Books - PLAYBOY Science Fiction and Fantasy & Story Query Answered, Television - Edited Star Wars, Miscellaneous - FTL Misconceptions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Friday, 2 Mar 1984 07:00:52-PST From: decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian@Shasta Subject: re: PLAYBOY Science Fiction and Fantasy Andy Leslie in V.9#38 gives the contents of THE PLAYBOY BOOK OF SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY (1966, hc & pb) and asks if Playboy published any other anthologies of this type. Well, you asked for it, Andy: THE DEAD ASTRONAUT (1971, pb only) "The Dead Astronaut" (J. G. Ballard) "Skin-Deep" (Brian Rencelaw) "Here Comes John Henry" (Ray Russell) "The Wreck of the Ship John B." "A Man for the Moon" (Leland Webb) "Nine Lives" (Ursula K. LeGuin) "Maelstrom II" (Arthur C. Clarke) "Requiem on the Moon" (David Duncan) "Spy Story" (Robert Sheckley) "The Sensible Man" (Avram Davidson) THE FIEND (1971, pb only) "The Fiend" (Frederik Pohl) "Welcome to the Monkey House" (Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.) "The Ultimate Brunette" (Algis Budrys) "Can You Feel Anything When I Do This?" "You Can't Have Them All" (Charles Beaumont) "Double Standard" (Fredric Brown) "Adam Frost" (Vance Aandahl) "The Crooked Man" (Beaumont) "I Like Blondes" (Robert Bloch) "The Mission" (Hugh Nissenson) "I Remember Babylon" (Arthur C. Clarke) "The Master Copy" (Frank Dobinson) "Love, Incorporated" (Robert Sheckley) "The Better Man" (Ray Russell) "Lovemaking" (Frederik Pohl) FROM THE "S" FILE (1971, pb only) "The Nail and the Oracle" (Theodore Sturgeon) "Melodramine" (Henry Slesar) "The World of Heart's Desire" (Robert Sheckley) "Victory Parade" (Henry Slesar) "Can You Feel Anything When I Do This?" (Sheckley) "Examination Day" (Slesar) "Triplication" (Robert Sheckley) "The Jam" (Henry Slesar) "Same to You Doubled" (Robert Sheckley) "After" (Henry Slesar) "Cordle to Onion to Carrot" (Robert Sheckley) "The Pool" (Jack Sharkey) "Control Somnabule" (William Sambrot) "Conversation with a Bug" (Jack Sharkey) "The Man from Not-Yet" (John Sladek) "Deathwatch" (Norman Spinrad) THE FULLY AUTOMATED LOVE LIFE OF HENRY KEANRIDGE (1971, pb only) "The Fully Automated Love Life of Henry Keanridge" (Stan Dryer) "Space Opera" (Ray Russell) "Mr. Swift and His Remarkable Thing" (Jeremiah McMahon) "The Trouble with Machines" (Ron Goulart) "The Killer in the TV Set" (Bruce Jay Friedman) "Punch" (Frederik Pohl) "A Miracle of Rare Device" (Ray Bradbury) "Professor Hyde" (Thomas Berger) "A Foot in the Door" (Bruce Jay Friedman) "The Chimeras" (Arthur Koestler) "A Man's Home is His Castle" (Ron Goulart) "Number Eight" (Patrick McGivern) "Put Them All Together, They Spell Monster" (Ray Russell) LAST TRAIN TO LIMBO (1971, pb only) "Last Train to Limbo" (Asa Baber) "Man with a Past" (T. K. Brown III) "Leviathan!" (Larry Niven) "Word of Honor" (Robert Bloch) "The Monster Show" (Charles Beaumont) "The Lost City of Mars" (Ray Bradbury) "The Illustrated Woman" (Ray Bradbury) "December 28th" (Theodore L. Thomas) "The Food of the Gods" (Arthur C. Clarke) "Who Shall Dwell..." (H. C. Neal) "The Splendid Source" (Richard Matheson) "Puppet Show" (Fredric Brown) "The Origin of Everything" (Italo Calvino) "Papa's Planet" (William F. Nolan) "On Location" (Thomas Baum) "Dial `F' for Frankenstein" (Arthur C. Clarke) MASKS (1971, pb only) "Masks" (Damon Knight) "The Hat Act" (Robert Coover) "Perchance to Dream" (Beaumont) "Death's Door" (Robert McNear) "The Yellow Room" (John Cheever) "Colorless in Limestone Caverns" (Allan Seager) "Fortitude" (Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.) "Untitled" (Ken W. Purdy) "Winter in this Latitude" (Rick Rubin) "A Breath of Lucifer" (R. K. Narayan) THE PLAYBOY BOOK OF HORROR AND THE SUPERNATURAL (1967, hc & pb) "Softly Walks the Beetle" (John Collier) "Side by Side" (John Tomerlin) "Heavy Set" (Ray Bradbury) "The Sea Was Wet as Wet Could Be" (Gahan Wilson) "Nasty" (Fredric Brown) "Hey, Look at Me!" (Jack Finney) "Sardonicus" (Ray Russell) "For the Rich They Sing---Sometimes" (Ken W. Purdy) "Sorcerer's Moon" (Charles Beaumont) "I'm Yours" (Charles Schafhauser) "First Anniversary" (Richard Matheson) "Double Exposure" (John Reese) "The Jam" (Henry Slesar) "The Taste of Fear" (Hugh G. Foster) "Beelzebub" (Robert Bloch) "No Such Thing as a Vampire" (Richard Matheson) "The Machine in Ward Eleven" (Charles Willeford) "Virginia" (Calvin Tomkins) "The Academy" (David Ely) "Black Country" (Charles Beaumont) "The Manuscript of Dr. Arness" (Gahan Wilson) "The Traveling Salesman" (Bloch) "The Party" (William F. Nolan) "Weird Show" (Herbert Gold) "Burnt Toast" (Mack Reynolds) "The Life Work of Juan Diaz" (Ray Bradbury) "Rendezvous" (John Christopher) "Comet Wine" (Ray Russell) PLAYBOY'S STORIES OF THE SINISTER AND STRANGE (1969, pb only) "The Mannichon Solution" (Irwin Shaw) "Wise Child" (John Wyndham) "The Dark Music" (Charles Beaumont) "Welcome to the Monkey House" (Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.) "Somewhere Not Far from Here" (Gerald Kersh) "The Investor" (Bruce Jay Friedman) "Room 312" (G. L. Tassone) "Ripples" (Ray Russell) "The Golden Frog" (Ken W. Purdy) "The Dispatcher" (Gerald Green) "The Annex" (John D. MacDonald) SAGITTARIUS (1971, pb only) (all stories by Ray Russell) "Sagittarius" "The Room" "Naked in Xanadu" "Ripples" "Comet Wine" "A Night in the Byzantine Palace" "Sardonicus" "Ounce of Prevention" TRANSIT OF EARTH (1971, pb only) "Transit of Earth" (Arthur C. Clarke) "The Man in the Rorschach Shirt" (Ray Bradbury) "Button, Button" (Richard Matheson) "The Machineries of Joy" (Ray Bradbury) "Waste Not, Want Not" (John Atherton) "The Invasion" (Avram Davidson) "Control Somnambule" (William Sambrot) "Bernie the Faust" (William Tenn) "Let There Be Light" (Arthur C. Clarke) "Cephalotron" (Thomas M. Disch) "Speed Trap" (Frederik Pohl) "It Didn't Happen" (Fredric Brown) "Souvenir" (J. G. Ballard) WEIRD SHOW (1971, pb only) "Weird Show" (Herbert Gold) "The Machine in Ward Eleven" (Charles Willeford) "A Recluse and His Guest" (Tennessee Williams) "Double Exposure" (John Reese) "I Do Not Like Thee, Dr. Feldman" (Henry Slesar) "The Academy" (David Ely) "Accidents of a Country Road" (Roger Dionne) "The Party" (William F. Nolan) "By Appointment Only" (Richard Matheson) "Nasty" (Fredric Brown) "A Life in the Day of" (Frank M. Robinson) "I'm Yours" (Charles Schafhauser) "Softly Walks the Beetle" (John Collier) "The Taste of Fear" (Hugh G. Foster) "The Convert" (Ken W. Purdy) "Xong of Xuxan" (Ray Russell) All of these books are out-of-print, but they're not very hard to find in used book stores if you want to go looking for them. I'm missing only one of them (PLAYBOY'S STORIES OF THE SINISTER AND STRANGE) and the information for its contents came from William Contento's INDEX TO SCIENCE FICTION ANTHOLOGIES AND COLLECTIONS (Boston: G. K. Hall, 1978), which incidentally also lists which issues of *Playboy* these stories appear in. <"Bibliography is --- jayembee my business"> (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard) UUCP: (decvax!decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian) ARPA: (decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian@Shasta) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Mar 84 10:33 EST From: Jonathan Ostrowsky Subject: Story query (killer cute kids) in V9, #39 Date: Tue, 28 Feb 84 06:21 MST From: DBarker@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Story Query The story about the cute kids who kill you when you get them home is definitely (that's right deryk, stick your neck out) Philip Dick - will check title tonight. I seem to recall there being 3 types of enemy robot of which the last (and before the punchline undiscovered) are the cute kids - ring any bells? I think this is a Gordon Dickson story that appeared in a collection published about ten years ago by the SFBC. The book is no longer in my collection, but I believe it was called "Ancient, Mine Enemy". Can't remember the story's title, either. Good story, snappy ending. ------------------------------ Date: 1 Mar 84 14:13:01-PST (Thu) From: harpo!ulysses!allegra!alice!wookie @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Edited Star Wars??? The Star Wars we saw on CBS was exactly the reissued version from 20th Century. Nothing was left out and nothing was added. The title was changed for the re-release of Star Wars since the other versions were on hand and it was clear this was no longer a one shot deal. So in the re-release the orginal 70 mm version was updated to the new title. By the way the CBS version was the updated original 70mm as it lacked the changed lines of Aunt Beru, the added line for C3P0,lacked the better synchronized sound effects, used single sideband communications for the death star battle etc. etc. as previously discussed. Keith Bauer White Tiger Racing ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 29 Feb 1984 12:27:06-PST From: decwrl!rhea!sarah!a_vesper@Shasta Subject: FTL misconceptions My first reaction to Steven Maurer's letter (SFL v 9 # 36) was to send a brief note with my own comments on possibility/impossiblity of FTL travel to the SFL newsletter. My second reaction was a feeling that the subject has been discussed enough for this year. I eventually decided to go through some previous SFL issues (volume 9 only 'cause that's what was on-line) and point out all discussions of FTL, give a (very) brief summary and add my comments after each. I searched for "FTL" so if there was any discussion that did not use that abbreviation I did not pick it up. Mon, 16 Jan, # 12 : Ken Varnum Does time slow down as you approach the speed of light (c) and go backwards if you go faster than light? The answer to the first half of the question is very well explained in the next citation. The second half cannot be answered at this time -- we just don't know because we don't any experimental data. Mon, 16 Jan, # 13 : Bruce Giles An excellent discussion of special relativity, length contraction and time dilation, but longer than I want to include here. Wed, 18 Jan, # 15 : Joe Buck "Special relativity shows that if FTL travel is possible, time travel (and causality violation) must occur as well." "Actually, relativity doesn't explicitly prohibit FTL travel. It just shows that an object with mass can't be accelerated continuously from a velocity below c to one above c." I believe that special (and general) relativity simply don't say anything about FTL travel, but only STL travel. The definitions that Einstein came up with for 'time' and 'simultaneity' are paired directly with relativity and the STL universe. A new theory showing how FTL travel is possible would have to redefine those terms, and probably 'cause' and 'effect' as well. Einstein also showed that it takes more and more energy to accelerate a body (with mass) closer and closer to c and that it would take infinite energy to accelerate a body TO c. Assuming that you must accelerate from below c THROUGH c to above c gives you the impossibility of FTL travel. (There is a discussion of Tachyons later in this note.) As an aside, bodies without mass (e.g. photons) always travel at c in a vacuum. Sun, 22 Jan, # 17 : Jeff Duntemann Postulates a starship drive which accelerates all particles within a given volume equally. "This violates no physical laws that I know of." With 2000 or 3000 G acceleration a trip to the nearer stars becomes a matter of weeks or months rather than centuries. (Personal time rather than universe time.) I don't have my copy of *Have Space Suit, Will Travel* by Robert A. Heinlein with me, but in that novel RAH shows that a constant acceleration of less than 10 G is sufficient to get to the nearer stars in a matter of 'weeks or months'. 2000 or 3000 G would probably get you there within seconds. I can't do that kind of math in my head so I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader. Tue, 24 Jan, # 18 : Eric G. Stern Eric comments that the starship drive which accelerates all particles within a given volume equally requires communicating a change in velocity instantly over a non-zero distance, which is prohibited by special relativity. Oh well. TANSTAAFL. Thu, 23 Feb, # 36 : Steven Maurer "Thus, though it is possible for "Psychism" to exist, even "magic" (as long as it is in another universe), FTL cannot." "Period." Bunk. Why can't FTL exist in another universe? Call it "magic" if you want. Why can't FTL exist in our universe? It might, but we don't know how yet. Personally I don't expect to see it possible in my lifetime, and maybe never (although 'never' is a very strong word). Hard science fiction often takes a theory just past where it breaks down (such as relativity and 'c') and declares that reality works differently from there. FTL is prime science fiction material in this light. Tue, 28 Feb, # 38 : Mike Gannis Mike compares Einsteinian relativity to Newtonian physics: "Would you class as fantasy all stories involving sub-c time dilation effects simply because they aren't predicted by Newtonian physics?" I agree. Newtonian physics cannot handle time dilation. Einsteinian relativity cannot handle FTL. Both are 'true' in that they are useful descriptions of the 'world' with certain limitations. I have not seen any mention of Tachyons in the recent past, so I will bring up the subject myself. If you take Einstein's theories and turn them around slightly, you have a universe where all massive objects travel faster than c, it takes energy to slow them down towards c and infinite energy to slow them down to c. This universe is called a Tachyon universe and the particles in it are Tachyons. This gives rise to the following FTL drive principle: change matter into tachyons going in the right direction, travel the distance then change back into normal matter. In order to do this, you need (1) the normal universe, (2) the tachyon universe, (3) some way to convert between normal matter and tachyons and (4) someplace to stand while doing the conversion. (4) implies that the normal 'universe' and the tachyon 'universe' are only subspaces of the 'real universe'. The normal 'universe' would then not have to obey conservation laws, which are tricky things to get around when all that normal matter/energy disappears (and reappears somewhere else -- presumably with different potential energy). Wormholes in space are also convenient FTL 'drives'. Unfortunately, this also implies a space larger than the 'universe' within which the 'universe' is folded. And you still have to do something about conservation. (Simply saying that conservation doesn't hold is tacky and doesn't help much anyway.) Sorry for running on to such a length, but I hope I cleared up some of the misconceptions. I will close with my recollection of an old limerick: There once was a woman named Bright, Whose speed was far faster than light, She set out one day, In a relative way, And came back the previous night. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 6-Mar SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #42 *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Mar 84 1320-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #42 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 6 Mar 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 42 Today's Topics: Books - Brin & Dickson & Heinlein & Book Requests Answered (2 msgs), Films - Superman II & Star Trek III & Star Wars (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 Mar 84 17:34:23 EST From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA Subject: THE PRACTICE EFFECT, by David Brin Just released: THE PRACTICE EFFECT, by David Brin (Bantam, $2.75, ISBN 0-553-23992-9): This one has been eagerly awaited, and is actually in book stores in New Jersey, so one can only assume that it is available elsewhere (as NJ is the end of the Known Universe...). It looks quite interesting. To give a brief hint of the plot, I quote from the opening "introductory" page: "Dennis Nuel was the first man to walk through a zievatron. But he never expected it to strand him on such a strange world! First there was the baffling technology of the land of Coylia--a weird blend of the supermodern and the caveman primitive. Then there was the Warlord Kremer, whose plans to conquer everything in sight seemed to involve Dennis's participation, whether he wanted it or not! Dennis's only allies were a beautiful captive princess, a disobedient robot, and a little alien creature with a warped sense of humor! Somehow, with their help, Dennis would have to find a way to make Earth science work on a world where practice REALLY meant perfect...or else!" Looks very interesting, aside from all the exclamation marks that they seem to need. I'll post a review as soon as I've read it, I'm sure that this book will mark the start of another long series of comments! Frederick Paul Kiesche III ------------------------------ Date: 5 Mar 84 17:27:56 EST From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA Subject: New Book from Dickson Just picked up, and just published: JAMIE THE RED, by Gordon R. Dickson (ACE, $2.95, ISBN0-441-38245-2). Readers with good memory may recall that the character of Jamie the Red appeared in the first Thieve's World book. The story that he actually appeared in (if memory serves) was not written by Dickson, but Dickson supplied the character... The book does not indicate if it is connected with the TW series, but I'm sure I'll find that out when I read it.... More to come! Frederick Paul Kiesche III ------------------------------ Date: 1 Mar 84 14:27:17-PST (Thu) From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!pegasus!hocse!dls @ Ucb-Vax Subject: heinlein and FRIDAY A friend of mine not connected to the net wrote this up on the subject of Heinlein and Friday. *********************************FLAME ON*************************** In all the flaming of Heinlein on the net, not one person has stated the real objection I have to FRIDAY: in real life, women do not fall in love with their rapists. (In fact, no one has even mentioned the beginning or end of the novel at all.) Most women are not so calm and collected as Friday, and while she may be SUPPOSED to be extraordinary, Heinlein does a grave disservice to all of us who are not such "together" people. I suppose most of Heinlein's characters rise to the circumstances much better than we would; it's just that in all the other circumstances, I can at least imagine that I would do as well. I think it's an important consideration. That is not to say that I believe that all fiction must be "politically correct," just that one must consider the consequences of one's words. Heinlein may very well leave men with the mistaken impression that rape is no worse than purse-snatching. This is what pisses me off about FRIDAY. *********************************FLAME OFF************************** For what its worth, I have a slightly different view on this subject. I agree that the rape was gratuitous and unlikely, stuck in to "arouse the audience(of men)." Friday even says at one point the "rape is a poor interrogation technique," which happens to be true. It seems unlikely that supposed professionals would waste what turn out to be critical minutes(more likely hours, the scene is dragged out forever)before moving on to something more likely to be effective. I call this gratuitous. The more important point is that given the character of Friday, she is unlikely to forgive the rapist as easily as she does. A much more likely outcome would be her shooting him the instant she recognizes him, and perhaps feeling a very small twinge of regret upon hearing that he's supposed to have been one of the "good guys." I'm not saying it couldn't happen, just that it happens too quickly and with too little development to have a shred of credibility. What is being requested here is a reasonable standard of characterization, consistant with actual human psychology. Friday was not portrayed as a masochist, nor as a victim of the "Patty Hearst" syndrom, nor were any other reasonable motives put forward. Hence her behavior seems absurd. Nobody forgives that easily. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Mar 84 20:23:27 EST From: Kris Hammond Subject: Killer Baby Robots We seem to have a confusion between two robot baby stories right now. From Minsky we have the request: 1. There is a guerilla war, and there are nice little kids who are hungry and pathetic. When you take them home they blow up. Maybe Philip Dick or Damon Knight? From Roz Tayler we have the request: I read a story (?) about children and population control. The story line went something like this: a couple decides they want children; they have to apply to the government (?) for permission; the government has a "child-trial-program" where prospective parents are allowed to try-out having a child in the house and how they like being parents; of course, the parents decide (ALWAYS!) not to have children--since the trial children are behaving in the worst possible ways at all times; seems there was a "kicker"...(take your choice:) 1) the children were really robots, 2) it wasn't the government, but aliens, and/or 3) the children were midgets acting like "monster-kids"! Deryk Barker has pointed out correctly that Minsk is looking for a Philip Dick story: The story about the cute kids who kill you when you get them home is definitely (that's right deryk, stick your neck out) Philip Dick - will check title tonight. I seem to recall there being 3 types of enemy robot of which the last (and before the punchline undiscovered) are the cute kids - ring any bells? But for unknown reasons Jonathan Ostrowsky has given a pointer to the second story, (by Gordon Dickson), while refering to it as the first: Date: Tue, 28 Feb 84 06:21 MST From: DBarker@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Story Query The story about the cute kids who kill you when you get them home is definitely (that's right deryk, stick your neck out) Philip Dick - will check title tonight. I seem to recall there being 3 types of enemy robot of which the last (and before the punchline undiscovered) are the cute kids - ring any bells? I think this is a Gordon Dickson story that appeared in a collection published about ten years ago by the SFBC. The book is no longer in my collection, but I believe it was called "Ancient, Mine Enemy". Can't remember the story's title, either. Good story, snappy ending. The story Minsky is looking for is part of a loose set of stories by Philip Dick, that concern the automation of war and the development of robot bombs that look like people. Its title is "Second Variety" and is part of Dick's automation paranoia series. It was last collected in a "Best of P. K. Dick" but was originally anthologized in "The Variable Man". In this story, robots who look like people wander the earth blowing up people and each other. They come in two known, and thus avoidable, types: The first variety is refered to as the "wounded soldier" while the third variety is called "David", a lost little boy with a teddy bear. The plot revolves around a group of semi-strangers trying to figure out which of them is the "second variety". It has a straightforward Philip Dick ending, in which all our paranoic fantasies come true (it turns out that there are four varieties, not three). It is one of the many works in which Dick argues that automation will eventually result in machines warring against each other as the end result of their initial programming. This basic theme is also used in the short stories "Nanny" and "Autofac". The other story, the one that Roz Tayler is looking for, is one by Gordon Dickson called, "The Education of Tigress McCartal(sp)". This concerns a government regulation stipulating that before a couple is allowed to have children they must care for a robot baby that records the quality of their care for one month. The robot actively tries to make the couple's life a living hell by destroying their home and keeping them up all night. When they finally give up the robot goes into a non-baby mode and produces a document for them to sign waiving all future rights to parenthood. The stinger is that the entire program a actually controlled by the Chinese, who invade the US when the population consists entirely of people in their 70's, all of whom decided not to have children. An odd detail that sticks in my head is the fact that the babies were picked up from offices in the Empire State Building. Sorry to take so long but I feel that the world will be a better place to live in once people learn to identify the different killer baby robot stories at our disposal. Kris Hammond ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 5 Mar 1984 15:19:54-PST From: decwrl!rhea!orphan!nylander (Chip) From: Subject: Re: "dangerous children" book request (SFL V9 #40) The story was "The Education of Tigress McCardle", written by Cyril Kornbluth and published 1957 in "Venture". It's a great story (as were most of Kornbluth's), much reprinted. The "kicker" you were wondering about is that the trial children are robots controlled from government "monsterous children" center. I don't have any kids, but I've been in close proximity to a couple of rug-rats for the last few years, and Kornbluth had an unusually good handle on the behavior of babies and new parents. -chip nylander ------------------------------ Date: 29 Feb 84 12:11:48-PST (Wed) From: harpo!ulysses!burl!clyde!floyd!cmcl2!lanl-a!unm-cvax!nmtvax!ande From: rsen @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Superman II - More Questions? In reply to Jerry Greenberg: Q: "Why does Superman have to lose his powers when he falls in love with a human?" A: The answer to this is given in a hilarious pseudo-newspaper article written by Larry Niven in his book, ALL THE MYRIAD WAYS. The article is titled "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex" and describes in graphic (and gory) detail EXACTLY what would happen if Superman tried to mate with a human female without (temporarily, at least) getting rid of his powers. As Niven says, Superman can put a dent two-inch-thick steel just by pinching it slightly. Think of what that would mean to a female body when Supes starts to forget himself in the midst of passion and . . . well, you get the idea. Niven also goes into related areas such as the genetics of humans and kryptonians and the problems involved when a human woman tries to give birth to a kryptonian baby. andersen@nmtvax ------------------------------ Date: 5 Mar 84 17:24:15 EST From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA Subject: Nimoy Talks About STIII The following was found in the NEWARK STAR-LEDGER, on Sunday, March 4, 1984 NIMOY DEBUTS AT HELM By Marilyn Beck Hollywood--Making the leap from directing episodic TV to helming a special effects-laden science fiction film extravaganza with a cast of hundreds--of "aliens"--seems more than sufficient cause for an onslaught of anxiety attacks. Not for Leonard Nimoy. "I don't think I'd say I was nerve-wracked. I was excited more than anything else," says the man who's been bringing us Earth's favorite Vulcan, the admirable Spock, for 17 years. Nimoy, of course, is talking about STAR TREK III: THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK, the June 1 Parmount release that marks his big-screen directorial debut. He's already earned his stripes for bringing in the complicated feature on time (49 days) and within budget ($16 million, which is not particularly expensive for high sci-fi). "The work was hard, very hard. We had a big cast, lots of people. The total number of extras must have run in the hundreds. It was tremendously ambitious physically, with special effects that had to be done on the stage as well as those to be added later--effects that would take days to reset if they didn't work out right the first time. We had earthquakes, fissures with fire and steam pouring out of them, a snowstorm...I think the only thing we didn't have was rain. Lovers of Star Trek have already been trying to find out if portraying Mr. Spock (who met his apparent demise in the last installment of the saga) is one of the things he did. Though Nimoy freely discussed the possibility of resuming his role with the studio when SEARCH FOR SPOCK was in its idea stage, now he responds to mention of Spock's future with amused evasiveness, a sidelong look and a grin. "The big questions started with 'Is Spock coming back?' Next it was, 'If he comes back, what form will we see him in?' And then the next phase, the very clever ploy, 'How did it feel to direct yourself?' All I can say is we are clinging to the idea that it will be fun for the audience to see what if any Spock there is in this film." --30-- So, there you have it folks, the latest rumours.... See you on line on June 1! Frederick Paul Kiesche III ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 6 Mar 1984 07:16:05-PST From: decwrl!rhea!gigi!brendan (Brendan E. Boelke) From: Subject: Rebel Alliance unfair to Wookies! Chewie most definitely did NOT get a medal at the end of ANH. It was one of the few things about the movie I found inconsistent. If the alliance is all FORCEfull (holy?) and good, how could they show such obvious bigotry? /BEB E-NET GIGI::BRENDAN ARPA ECG.BEB@DEC-MARLBORO ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Mar 84 11:52:32 EST From: Vicki Kanrek Subject: Re: Re: It *is NOT* ENDOR ENDOR is constantly referred to as the "Sentry Moon"; it just seems that the pronunciation of the word "Sentry" gets all screwed up and at times sounds like "Century". (Sort of like Checkov in ST-TWOK talking about 'Alpha Ceti' and here I was wondering what "Alpha City" was!) In the book, ik, ENDOR IS the moon (to the best of my recollection; only read it twice). But, having watched and replayed ROTJ many times I'm convinced that, after all is said and done, etc., etc., ENDOR IS THE SENTRY MOON. For those who have NOT read the book, how surprising was it REALLY to see Darth's turnaround to the 'good' side at the end of the movie? The book gives a decent (albeit long-winded) background and lead-up to it, but the movie just (comparatively) jumped into it. I'm wondering what the non-pre-read audience reaction was? VJK [vjk@bbn-unix] ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 8-Mar SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #43 *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Mar 84 1426-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #43 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 8 Mar 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 43 Today's Topics: Books - Bradley & Heinlein (2 msgs) & Kornbluth & Niven & Wallace & Robots (2 msgs) & Book Reviews, Films - Star Wars, Television - Dr. Who & A Query ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 Mar 84 17:06:27-PST (Mon) From: sun!qubix!steven @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Preachy authors continued..... - (nf) > Well I'm a male and I enjoyed Thendara House. As I read the > book I took no offense, but then maybe that was because the > author wasn't talking about me. Were you like one of the > characters in the book? Is that why you took offense? No, I guess I just take offense easily. In the same vein, I am unlike any character in any GOR book I have ever looked at, but also take offense at the plastic portrayals of people. The major difference between GOR and Thendra House simply seems to be the thrust of the novels: One creates an absolutely sexist society to revel in sado-mashochism, one creates an absolutely sexist society, to attempt to show that it is no different than our own. Both are such bad writing, they made me barf. > I though that Zimmer wrote an excellent book portraying a > clash of cultures. Keep in mind that she isn't necessarily > writing about our culture (although I'm not so sure it doesn't > fit in many cases). The plot was very well written and really > made me think about culture clashes and looking beyond what most > of us take for granted. (and i'm not just refering to > male-female relationships... i'm refering to thousands of > pseudo behaviors that society has created). It would help Marion Zimmer Bradley, if she ever read any NON-FICTION books on the same subject. Perhaps she might wake up from her fantasy long enough to realize that there are quite a few present day culture clashes, considerably more interesting than her own. More interesting because they are not totally centered around male-female relationships, and because they are REAL. (In Thendara House, not a man from either culture is presented as a loving, caring person; in NONE of her books, does any "good" male protagonist like the society he are living in. -- Perhaps if she (or you) read anything by Fernia about Islamic culture for instance, you might actually loosen up that feminist cultural bigotry that you have. > But I suppose that if you were preoccupied with worrying > about your male ego, you might have missed that. This is an example of "feminist cultural bigotry". I dislike that preachy book, therefore I am "preoccupied with worrying about" my MALE ego..... Steven Maurer ------------------------------ Date: 3 Mar 84 19:42:14-PST (Sat) From: hplabs!zehntel!tektronix!orca!andrew @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: heinlein and FRIDAY "In all the flaming of Heinlein on the net, not one person has stated the real objection I have to FRIDAY: in real life, women do not fall in love with their rapists ... Most women are not so calm and collected as Friday, and while she may be SUPPOSED to be extraordinary, Heinlein does a grave disservice to all of us who are not such "together" people ... Heinlein may very well leave men with the mistaken impression that rape is no worse than purse-snatching." Throughout the book, Heinlein hammers away at the theme that Friday did not consider herself to be a human being and had a far different attitude toward sex from that of "real" women. This was instilled in her during her upbringing as an "artificial person", the product of genetic engineering. During her schooling, she was told daily that she was not a real person. She was also given extensive training in "doxology", the study of how to please a man in bed, so that when she became of age and her contract was sold, she could serve as a concubine. I think that the purpose of the rape scene is to emphasize this indifference. Friday really did believe rape to be no worse than purse-snatching. -- Andrew Klossner (decvax!tektronix!orca!andrew) [UUCP] (orca!andrew.tektronix@rand-relay) [ARPA] ------------------------------ Date: 5 Mar 84 19:29:35-PST (Mon) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!friedman @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: heinlein and FRIDAY - (nf) Re. the criticism of Friday for falling in love with her rapist: I don't think this is well taken. For one thing, ordinary human psychology doesn't necessarily extrapolate to Friday. For example, it's clear that the rape was not (as such) traumatic to her; with her mind control discipline, she could and did simply turn it off. In that long scene of which the rape was part, she dispassionately recounts the several responses she considered making to the rape. The only rapist with whom she was upset (and very much so) was the guy who was unclean and slapped her around. So I don't find her response to Mac/Pete/Percival all that odd, although it was kinda quick. Even that is understandable; she tends to respond to other APs wherever and whenever she finds them (witness that gallant character who runs away from her the second time she crosses from Canada to California). Despite her statements that APs don't particularly stick together, every time she discovers one, they stick together -- Mac, Tilly, whatsisname.... So it does seem to be in character. As for the rape being stuck in to "arouse the audience (of men)", I think this is nonsense. It certainly was not described in a way that I think was erotic or arousing to anyone. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Mar 1984 14:47:18-EST From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX Subject: childcare practice "The Education of Tigress McArdle", by C. M. Kornbluth, has a requirement that everybody spend time caring for a robot baby (radio-controlled by an adult [sadist]) before being allowed to reproduce. The population basically disappears in a generation. I've also run across a Sturgeon story in which a couple makes a deal with a fairy who for misbehavior was sentenced to several years duty as a changeling; they have to prove their capacity for responsibility to a prunish (sic) aunt, preferably by caring for a child, in order to get an inheritance? ------------------------------ Date: 8 Mar 84 13:18:21 EST From: Saul Subject: Niven's Down in Flames Larry Niven's "Down in Flames" is now available at Rutgers via the ANONYMOUS log in of FTP. The file name is Down-in-flames.txt and comes to you courtesy of Don Woods. Saul ------------------------------ Date: 6 Mar 1984 09:05:38-EST From: Jim.Washburn at CMU-CS-CAD Subject: worst sf book ever I just happend to pick up a book here at work, which appeared abandoned and since it was a long night I decided to read it. Fifteen pages later I also abandoned it. This had to be the worst SF book ever written. It is called Heller's Leap by Ian Wallace. Has anyone out there read it? Maybe it was meant as a joke or satire but it seemed to be written by an eleven year old who had slept through all his elementary school english and science courses. Has this person written any other "works"? I would be interested in hearing any comments. --Jim Washburn ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Mar 84 08:45 MST From: RNeal@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: What do robots do on their day off? I am running a campaign for a game called DROIDS. It is a role-playing game where the players are intelligent machines left after a war wipes out the human race (if you would like more info on the game, let me know). What I would like to have are the titles and/or plots of SF stories dealing with robots, machine intelligence, etc. which are existing in some sort of society of their own, without human intervention. What sort of societies do robots create, what do they do on their day off, that sort of thing...... thanks for any info >RUSTY< (RNeal.dm8%pco -at cisl) ------------------------------ Date: 6 Mar 1984 14:37:07-EST From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX Subject: killer kid robots definitely PK Dick, title something like "Type 2" (new series of humanoid robots with built-in bombs starts turning up; someone looking at shards finds a #1 and a #3, so which of the randoms (refugees, etc.) he's seen is #2? Very early (appears in an anthology from the mid-50's). The robots include a woman and a cute kid with a teddy bear. ------------------------------ Date: Wed 7 Mar 84 19:32:33-EST From: Peter G. Trei Subject: Brin & May reviews. THE ADVERSARY, Julian May (PAN 0-330-28031-7, 1.95 lbs., about 470 pp., pbk) May 1984 THE PRACTICE EFFECT, David Brin (BANTAM 0-553-23992-9, $2.75, 277 pp., pbk) April 84 These two have been killing my sleep recently. Its tough to mention ANY plot elements in THE ADVERSARY without committing a spoiler. I will therefore try not to mention any. Anyone who has been following the field over the past couple of years has been aware of the Julian May's 'Saga of the exiles'. starting with 'The Many-Colored Land' and continuing through 'The Golden Torc' and 'The Non-Born King', he has built up an enormous panorama of places, cultures, and people. The characters are finely drawn, and stand out distinct from each other, a vital thing in a work this long with literally dozens of major players. In case you've gafiated for the past couple of years here is a thumbnail sketch of whats going on: Roughly a century from now, Earth has been absorbed into 'The Galactic Milieu', a galaxy wide society of telepaths. Earth's own people are rapidly developing psychic powers, and all is (more or less) calm, peaceful, and a little bit dull. One way out of the boredom is to pass through a time gate which a solitary scientist has built in his basement in near Lyons, France. It lets out in the same location, about 6 million years earlier. It's strictly a one way trip; anything that tries to pass in the other direction ages 6 million years and crumbles to dust. Still, a lot of people have taken this route to a newer, and hopefully more interesting world. Unfortunately, the Earth during the Pliocene Interglacial, while pleasant, is occupied by two races of alien religious refugees from another galaxy. Their culture and appearance is amazingly related to Celtic mythology, and they use their psychic powers to put the humans coming through the gate into a more or less benevolent serfdom. This goes on until the start of the first book, when the main human characters of the story pass through the gate. The rest of the books mainly deal with the social upheavals, wars, politics, geophysical disasters, and sundry other excitements happening largely as a result of these characters. May's canvas is enormous; he has three races, psychic powers, two time frames, and about 1700 pages to fill. There are enough battles, plots, descriptions, travels, adventures, and characters to populate another tetrology, and they all blend together so smoothly that no one character or group seem to dominate. Like a fugue, all contribute to an amazingly vivid created world, with things moving along so fast you don't have time to catch your breath. I stayed up late several nights to finish this, and thought it well worth the effort. This could reasonably be called 'The Thundering Conclusion of The Saga of the Exiles' if it were not for the hint of a prequel trilogy in the offing. This is not to say there are no flaws. With at least half a dozen subplots, I kept getting lost. Minor characters drop out of sight for hundreds of pages, then suddenly step back into the limelight. Also, the premises of the series as a whole strains credulity; the aliens and the humans can actually breed together! The explanation given for this I find inadequate, though I was able to suspend my disbelief, it was a strain. Nor was the explanation of the celtic content of the aliens culture truly adequate. Overall, I can only say that I really enjoyed THE ADVERSARY, and it will not let down anyone who has been following the series. I would not recommend it as a book for anyone who is just starting in SF, or who has not read the previous volumes. David Brin's THE PRACTICE EFFECT is another well-crafted tale. It is far shorter than May's opus, and works on a far smaller canvas. In a conscious tribute to the Harold Shea (Incomplete Enchanter) stories of DeCamp and Pratt, he has a more or less ingenious young man explore a world with slightly different physical laws; in this case the effect of the title. Any item, if used with intent, tends to improve with use; knives get sharper, paths in the woods turn into paved roads as traffic increases, and so on. The effects of this on society are the main interest of the story; the ostensible plot is merely a vehicle to allow exposition of the idea. Although THE PRACTICE EFFECT is certainly a page-turner (once again, it killed a nights sleep); I'm a little disappointed while there is nothing wrong with it as a piece of light fantasy, I had been expecting more substance from Brin. In the future I look forward to more stories of the high standard he set for himself in STARTIDE RISING. It would be a shame if he turns out to be a flash in the pan. ------------------------------ Date: 7 March 1984 0838-est From: Roz Subject: Re: Darth Vader's turn around (SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #42) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 84 11:52:32 EST From: Vicki Kanrek Subject: Re: Re: It *is NOT* ENDOR [Info about the ENDOR MOON, omitted] For those who have NOT read the book, how surprising was it REALLY to see Darth's turnaround to the 'good' side at the end of the movie? The book gives a decent (albeit long-winded) background and lead-up to it, but the movie just (comparatively) jumped into it. I'm wondering what the non-pre-read audience reaction was? VJK [vjk@bbn-unix] I did not "pre-read" the book before seeing ROTJ. Since I have always liked happy endings, I was rooting for the switch... therefore, when it happened I was not surprised--just very very glad! Roz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Mar 84 19:37:24 EST From: Andrew Malis Subject: Attn: Boston Dr. Who fans "The Five Doctors" will be on Ch. 44 this Friday, 3/9, at 7:30 PM. Also, Ch. 2 announced (during a pledge break) that this June they will be switching from Tom Baker to Pete Davidson, and they implied that these will be the most recent episodes available. Andy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Mar 84 8:34:16 EST From: Craig MacFarlane Subject: andriods There was a movie I watched this weekend called something like the making of androids. In the beginning it showed the history of electronics and robots, that started at R1 and worked up from there. They (the robots) talked about the first rule in the book was not to harm humans. It was set in the future after a nuclear war and the humans were slowly dieing from not being able to keep up with the death rate. The robots did most of the work and the big computer which was called "mother-father" did a lot of the law making. Does any one know who wrote or directed it. I have a guide to movies on TV and it only has the two leading actors. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Craig. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 9-Mar SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #44 *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Mar 84 1306-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #44 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 9 Mar 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 44 Today's Topics: Adminsitrivia, Books - Bradley (2 msgs) & Heinlein (2 msgs) & Wallace & Axgrinders, Films - Favorite SF Movies & "Creation of the Humanoids" & Star Wars, Music - Song Query Answers (2 msgs), Television - Dr. Who Video Game ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 9 Mar 84 12:38:25 EST From: Saul Subject: Adminsitrivia In the last issue I announced that Larry Niven's "Down in Flames" was available via FTP at Rutgers. Use the ANONYMOUS login of FTP to access it. The file is in down-in-flames.txt. Happy reading. Saul ------------------------------ Date: 8 Mar 1984 16:28:13-EST From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX Subject: THENDARA HOUSE Steven Maurer says: In Thendara House, not a man from either culture is presented as a loving, caring person; in NONE of [MZB]'s books, does any "good" male protagonist like the society he are living in. I didn't bother arguing his flat statement on FTL because that's an area approaching personal belief. This statement, however, can be tested objectively: both parts are horseshit, pure and simple. Perhaps SM didn't bother finishing the book; Damon Ridenow[-Alton?] and Andrew Carr appear rather late, but both of them certainly qualify as "loving, caring person[s]"; the fact that Damon is turns out to be one of the key elements in the book. The second part requires a little more knowledge of the Darkover books, but I would definitely point to Danilo [Syrtis? S-Ardais? in HERITAGE OF HASTUR, and SHARRA'S EXILE], and add Lew Alton after his father's death, several of the characters in HAWKMISTRESS, all but one of the men in the reworking of THE BLOODY SUN, and even Regis Hastur himself (RH dislikes the constraints on him of being the heir-designate but is no revolutionary, not even on the quiet level of Damon in THE FORBIDDEN TOWER)---and this is a list from the top of my head. I deliberately omit all of the early works since they are primarily adventure stories rather than people stories. There are a number of reasons for disliking one or more of the Darkover books, but they either are matters of taste (a friend discards them, as he does all ESP, as fantasy) or require more careful reading to substantiate. ------------------------------ Date: 1 Mar 84 1:34:31-PST (Thu) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!ctvax!uokvax!jmike @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Preachy authors continued..... - (nf) Well I'm a male and I enjoyed Thendara House. As I read the book I took no offense, but then maybe that was because the author wasn't talking about me. Were you like one of the characters in the book? Is that why you took offense? I though that Zimmer wrote an excellent book portraying a clash of cultures. Keep in mind that she isn't necessarily writing about our culture (although I'm not so sure it doesn't fit in many cases). The plot was very well written and really made me think about culture clashes and looking beyond what most of us take for granted. (and i'm not just refering to male-female relationships... i'm refering to thousands of pseudo behaviors that society has created). But I suppose that if you were preoccupied with worrying about your male ego, you might have missed that. mike ...ctvax!uokvax!jmike ------------------------------ Date: 8 Mar 1984 1608-PST From: tom@LOGICON Subject: Password After all the furor over "Friday", I thought I would see who *REALLY* read the book. And now for the quiz: What is the password by which APs can identify themselves to each other as Members of the world-wide AP underground which is alluded to by Heinlein? Tom Perrine P.s. Brownie points and fame for correct answers. Void where prohibited. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Mar 84 19:42:41-PST (Tue) From: menlo70!ames-lm!statvax!barry @ Ucb-Vax Subject: New Heinlein Novel I have heard a rumor to the effect that Robert Heinlein has a new novel due out this Spring or early Summer, titled something like "Job: A Book". I am *extremely* anxious to find out more about this, since I am insanely fond of Heinlein novels. I would also expect that any information anyone has would be of general enough interest to warrant posting it to net.sf-lovers, judging by the amount of discussion of Heinlein's books I've seen here. Anyone heard more about this? Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett, CA ------------------------------ Date: 8 Mar 1984 16:47:15-EST From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX Subject: Ian Wallace is a strange one, right enough. I read CROYD and [its successor?] DR. ORPHEUS a dozen years ago and remember them both as very strange. I wouldn't condemn them out of hand; after all, a lot of people like Christopher Priest's work. I haven't read the work mentioned (and probably won't), but I wouldn't be surprised at people finding it unreadable. For something more digestible, try DEATHSTAR VOYAGE. Still a strange mood, but much less entangled, perhaps because he sat down and figured out some plausible rules for psychokinetic techniques, then worked them into the story. ------------------------------ From: DUNTEMANN.WBST@PARC-MAXC.ARPA Date: 9 Mar 84 8:56:53 EST Subject: axgrinders there is a class of book which i call "axgrinders;" they are books which offer a heavy sociopolitical position felt by the author without offering any insights as to why this should be so. mzbradley is great at this sort of thing; also high on the list is russ' the female man. i find them offensive because they condemn without offering any direction to higher ground. lest people think i only lump together books which offer opinions with which i disagree, well, one of the worst offenders was a weird, vicious little book called the bridge by keith mano. it took aim at environmental extremists, who ultimately decree racial suicide because humans cause discomfort to single-celled organisms existing everywhere in the environment. (killing a fly or mosquito is a capital offense, etc.) as much as i detest naderism, i was greatly offended by the book, which ranks as one of the worst axgrinders i have ever read. as much as i distrust big government, i toss ayn rand on the same pile. i read for insight, not political reinforcement. and i sure wish people would bury this "male ego" nonsense. some of the biggest male egos i've ever seen were owned by women. the essential differences between the sexes are considerably less than the axgrinders would have us believe. heat is easy. light is rough. sure wish i could make this terminal produce capital letters again... --jeff duntemann duntemann.wbst@parc-maxc.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 6 Mar 84 19:05:43-PST (Tue) From: menlo70!ames-lm!statvax!barry @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: FAVE SF MOVIES Ah, yes, guilty pleasures! Has anyone but myself seen (much less liked) "The Day The Earth Froze"? It must have come out some time in the sixties, and, title notwithstanding, is not your standard catastrophe movie. It is a film adaptation of the Finnish Kalevala (Finns feel free to correct a Norwegian's spelling). The Kalevala is an epic myth, like the Greek myths or the Nordic Eddas, a national epic. It had an American distributor's name on the credits, and some English narration overlayed, but appeared to be actually Finnish- made, or maybe Russian-made. It is obviously low-budget, and has very unrealistic special effects and poor English dubbing, but shining through the rough surface is a quaint charm that may hold your interest if you're in the right mood. I would be interested in hearing about anyone else's "guilty pleasures" (things you know you oughtn't like, but do) among sf/fantasy films. What other hidden treasures are out there? Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett, CA ------------------------------ Date: 9 Mar 84 12:28:23 EST From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA Subject: "Creation of the Humanoids" The film recently asked about (post-nucelar war, androids and all that) was a rather talky and cheap movie called CREATION OF THE HUMANOIDS. By "cheap" I mean that it had a rather low budget. By "talky" I mean that there is very little action, mostly dialog... I too have been searching for more information on this movie. I have seen it (probably) about 24 times, mostly when I was working as a security guard and it was shown on the Late Late Late Late Late Show. Good stuff, if a bit dated. Frederick Paul Kiesche III ------------------------------ Date: 8 Mar 84 14:05:55 PST (Thursday) From: Jef Poskanzer Subject: Sy Snootles, Live at the Berkeley Square! (From the San Francisco Chronicle, 06mar84, page 40. Reproduced without permission.) (deleted) ------------------------------ Date: 1 Mar 84 1:34:16-PST (Thu) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!ctvax!uokvax!andree @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: song query - (nf) Unless I'm badly mistaken, there's a thing floating around (I keep trying to drown it, but just can't :-) called "Why Me" that could fit that description. Unfortunately, I've forgotten who did it. Unless I'm badly mistaken, there's a thing floating around (I keep > trying to drown it, but just can't :-) called "Why Me" that could > fit that description. Unfortunately, I've forgotten who did it. The song "Why Me" is done by the group Planet P. Allen England at AT&T Bell Laboratories, Naperville, IL ihnp4!ihuxb!alle ------------------------------ Date: 4 Mar 84 14:34:47-PST (Sun) From: harpo!ulysses!burl!clyde!floyd!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!tektroni From: x!orca!shark!hutch @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Dr. Who Video Game??? > Yes, there is such a video game. It is a home game designed to run on the BBC(!!) home computer. Honest! Would I lie? Hutch ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 14-Mar SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #45 *** EOOH *** Date: 14 Mar 84 1250-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #45 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 14 Mar 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 45 Today's Topics: Books - Bradbury & Brunner & Clarke & Harrison & Heinlein & May & Niven & Wolfe, Conventions - Philcon '84, Films - Favorite Movies (2 msgs), Television - Dr. Who, Miscellaneous - Irresistable Force vs. Immovable Object & AP's Password ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 Mar 1984 14:01:55 PST Subject: Ray Bradbury lecture in LA From: Alan R. Katz Space and 1984 A lecture by Ray Bradbury On Tue., March 27, at 7:00, OASIS/L5 will present Ray Bradbury. The meeting will be held at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory's Von Karman Auditorium in Pasadena. Admission is free and the general public is welcome. Bradbury will speak to the continuing revolutions in our American society, including space, the computer, medicine, jets, immigration, employment, telephones, and freeways. He is best know as the author of "The Martian Chronicles" and has published more than 400 short stories and 17 novels. To get to JPL: Take the Foothill freeway (210) to the Berkshire off ramp , go right on Berkshire, left on Oak Grove up to JPL (follow the signs). Tell your friends! Alan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 84 22:31:55 CST From: Mike Caplinger Subject: British edition of THE SHOCKWAVE RIDER I've heard that John Brunner's novel THE SHOCKWAVE RIDER was released in England in substantially different form than the US Ballantine edition. In fact, I recall reading that Brunner was quite peeved that Ballantine had mercilessly hacked his work, even removing a character without his permission. Could someone tell me roughly what was changed between the two versions? Pointers to British editions that might be available in the US would also be appreciated. Since the Ballantine version was so good, I can't help wondering what the original was like. thanks, Mike ------------------------------ Date: 9 Mar 84 12:42:55 EST From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA Subject: Update on 2010: ODYSSEY TWO The following is taken from THE NEWARK OBSERVER (a Rutgers University Newark Campus newspaper), dated March 6, 1984: 2010: AN EXPERIENCE IN SPACE By Bert Roig "Helen Mirren, the distinguished British actress, has been set for a starring role in MGM's "2010", produced and directed by Peter Hyams, it was announced by Freddie Fields, head of Worldwide theatrical production for MGM/UA Enter- tainment Co. "Mirren, whose feature film credits include 'Oh Lucky Man,' 'Excalibur' and 'The Long Good Friday', is well-known for her stage appearances as a leading lady with the Royal Shakespeare Theatre and the Shakespeare Memorial Theatre. "She is regularly seen on British television in such productions as 'Mrs. Reindhart' shown on PBS in the US. "MGM's '2010', currently in production at MGM Studios in Culver City, stars Roy Scheider, Bob Balaban and John Lithgow. It is scheduled for a Christmas 1984 release by MGM/UA Entertainment Co. "'2010' is based on the novel 2010: ODYSSEY TWO by Arthur C. Clarke, one of the leading writers of science fiction. He is famous for his 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY which he wrote in close collaboration with director Stanley Kubrick who was simultaneously making the film in 1967. "'2010' is the second part of the story which picks up where its predecessor left off. The novel describes the adventure of Heywood Floyd, an American scientist who dreams of reactiviting HAL 9000, the maniac computer in the first episode. A second voyage to Jupiter, the site of the original story, and the objective of the mission is 'to proceed to the Jovian System and rendezvous with the lost U.S. spacecraft DISCOVERY. A Russian ship, the ALEXI LEONOV is sent with seven Russian cosmonauts and three American experts, including Dr. Floyd. "The story examines Life in Space and such concepts as Life itself. In one part of the novel there is, on an alien moon, a creature which lives under the ice, a kind of "octopus" with many tentacles. It single-handedly destroys a Chinese spacecraft which landed there to refuel (and which was, by the way, trying to get to the DISCOVERY first to learn its technological secrets.). "The novel also explores other kinds of life that multiply at a tremendous rate and completely cover the surface of Jupiter, at the climax of the story, turning it into a second sun. These living brick-like organisms, similiar to the monoliths in the first story, reproduce by dividing and subdividing much like cells do. "The movie version may or may not do justice to the novel that came out in 1982. If it does, then there will be better character interaction and more human relations, maybe even a love story between Floyd and one of the Russian cosmonauts, most probably played by Helen Mirren." --30-- That is quoted directly from the paper. I take no responsibility for accuracy of story line, facts, or the mangled English language. I'm just quoting for you all.... Frederick Paul Kiesche III ------------------------------ Date: 6 Mar 84 19:14:10-PST (Tue) From: hplabs!zehntel!tektronix!orca!andrew @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers "In an unending search for funny SF, I picked up a copy of 'Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers' by Harry Harrison ... The book, to put it mildly, it terrible. ... The plot is so stupendously non-existant that I found I didn't mind when the cardboard characters stood up and postured (Example: the heros are about to be killed by a KGB agent. In a last ditch attempt to save their skin, they say 'Sure, you were brought up as a socialist, but your father was an american (true assumption) and that makes you an american as well!' This moved this highly trained and motivated KGB agent so much that he changed sides ..." Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers is meant, not as a "straight" humorous book to read out of context, but a parody of the classic SF styles and subgenres. In particular, most of Heinlein's works were well and excellently lampooned. As such, I found it to be about the funniest book I ever read. But don't read it unless you have already read quite a bit of conventional SF, or you won't find it to be very funny. -- Andrew Klossner (decvax!tektronix!orca!andrew) [UUCP] (orca!andrew.tektronix@rand-relay) [ARPA] ------------------------------ Date: 6 Mar 84 10:53:12-PST (Tue) From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!pegasus!hocse!dls @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Heinlein and FRIDAY Once again, my off-net friend has something to say: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >Throughout the book, Heinlein hammers away at the theme that >Friday did not consider herself to be a human being and had a >far different attitude toward sex from that of "real" women. and >I don't think this is well taken. For one thing, ordinary >human psychology doesn't necessarily extrapolate to Friday. For >example, it's clear that the rape was not (as such) traumatic >to her; with her mind control discipline, she could and did >simply turn it off. In that long scene of which the rape was >part, she dispassionately recounts the several responses she >considered making to the rape. So why does everyone hold up Friday as an example of how well Heinlein portrays a strong female (human) character? Either she's a valid example of a strong female character (which implies some degree of believability in her portrayal as a HUMAN female), or she's not considered HUMAN (which implies that she can't be held up as a valid example of a strong female character). You can't have it both ways. It seems like the whole point of the novel was that Friday was as human as any 'normal' human. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ My two cents worth: Friday was supposed to be the best any human could be, but still human. Her reaction while being raped is not the issue; I can believe that she could "turn it off." You could find real people who could do the same in worse circumstances. The problem is with her falling for the rapist AP. The suggestion is not that this is impossible, just that it was tossed off with too little justification or development, and is fundamentally unlikly to boot. ------------------------------ Date: Wed 14 Mar 84 08:52:16-PST From: Cher Gunby Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #43 One small point re Peter Trei's comments on Julian May. Throughout his comments he alludes to he. Ms. May would be quite surprised to find out that her sex recently changed. I'm reading "The Adversary" and find it as well as her other books quite enjoyable although the "scientific" jargon sometimes goes right over my head and slows an otherwise enjoyable read. [Moderator's Note: Thanks also to the following people for the same response: Audrey Ishizaki (hplabs!saturn!ishizaki@UCB-VAX) Chuq Von Rospach (menlo70!nsc!chuqui@UCB-VAX) ] ------------------------------ Date: 11 Mar 1984 20:29:58 PST From: Charles Carvalho Subject: Larry Niven / The Integral Trees According to the Science Fiction Hotline, Larry Niven will be making several appearances in Southern California in the next few weeks, in connection with The Integral Trees. Autograph parties are scheduled as follows: Sat, 17-Mar, 2-5 PM, at the Change of Hobbit in Santa Monica, (213) 473-2873 Sun, 18-Mar, 2-4 PM, at Andromeda Bookshop in Santa Barbara, (805) 965-2400 Sun, 1-Apr, 2-4 PM, at Dangerous Visions in Sherman Oaks, (818) 986-6963 In addition, he will be the guest on Hour 25 (KPFK, 90.7 FM) on Friday, 16-Mar, between 10 PM and midnight. Charles Carvalho ------------------------------ Date: 19 Mar 84 19:23:00-EST (Mon) From: ucbcad!kalash @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: none > I've been having a hard time finding Gene Wolfe's Operation Ares > (1970). Is it novel or anthology? Is it about anything in > particular? > What was Wolfe's first book? Operation Ares is a novel, and is Wolfe's first book. Joe Kalash kalash@berkeley ucbvax!kalash ------------------------------ Date: Sun 11 Mar 84 05:08:37-EST From: TYG%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Philcon programming I made a serious mistake coming back from Boskone; I hitched back to Philadelphia with the chairs of Philcon 83 and Philcon 84. By the time we got to Philly, I seem to have ended up being either in charge or co-charge of programming for Philcon 84 (it was pointed out that it was a long walk from Hartford to Philadelphia). Philcon will be the weekend before Thanksgiving with Larry Niven as Principal Speaker and Sean Spocker (sp?), a sculptor, as artist GOH. If you've ever wanted to have input into the programming of a major regional, here's your chance. I'd appreciate any ideas for panels, and program items other than panels. These can include things you've never seen and would like to, or ideas from other cons which could bear repeating. Please note that I will next be logging in on this account on 3/24, and don't know when I will after that, so don't be surprised by spotty followup from me. Thanx! tom galloway tyg%mit-oz@mit-mc ------------------------------ Date: 8 Mar 84 15:23:53-PST (Thu) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!ut-sally!ut-ngp!dan @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: FAVE SF MOVIES I'm a little surprised that nobody's mentioned "Blade Runner" as a favorite! This film is an excellent example of using sci-fi as the mechanism for telling us the author's views on the roles of God and man, as well as being an interesting story. Dan Reynolds ------------------------------ Date: 9 Mar 84 8:37:42-PST (Fri) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!trwrb!trwspp!urban @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: FAVE SF MOVIES Re: "Day the Earth Froze" (what an obnoxious title). Clearly a foreign film, and looks like it was made quite a while ago. Could it be a silent film, originally? I seem to have seen it shown that way at a convention once, and it isn't nearly as bad without the dubbed English soundtrack! By the way, the Kalevala is a peculiar sort of national Epic, since it was the work of one man (Elias Lonnrot (sp?)) who assembled it from diligently collected oral folk legends, songs, and poems. By the time he collected the stuff (in the 19th century, I think; don't quote me), figures like Kullervo who probably had once had high mythic stature had diminished into semi-comical folk figures. Interestingly, Tolkien and Sibelius (THERE's an odd pair!) both raised Kullervo back to heroic status (in the tale of Turin and in the Kullervo Symphony, respectively). Ramble, ramble... Mike ------------------------------ Date: 9 Mar 1984 21:24 EST (Fri) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" Subject: Dr. Who Having just seen the Five Doctors, I have one question: Which is which? I know Baker and Davison, but I don't know who played the old man, the short one who looks vaguely like Moe Howard, and the fancy one with white hair. Would someone in possession of such information care to pass it on? Thanks. By the way, I recall reading some while back that there was a Dr. Who archive on line somewhere. Could someone tell me where I can find it? Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Sun 11 Mar 84 07:06:39-EST From: TYG%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Irresistable Force vs. Immovable Object A hypothetical paradox: What would happen in a battle between an Enterprise security team, who always get killed soon after appearing, and a squad of Imperial Stormtroopers, who can't hit the broad side of a planet? tom galloway ------------------------------ Date: 10 Mar 84 20:05:34-PST (Sat) From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!rpw3 @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Password - (nf) (rot13 so not spoiler) Challenge/Punyyratr: "Zl zbgure jnf n grfg ghor" Response/Erfcbafr: "Zl sngure jnf n xavsr" Is that the one you meant? Rob Warnock UUCP: {sri-unix,amd70,hpda,harpo,ihnp4,allegra}!fortune!rpw3 DDD: (415)595-8444 USPS: Fortune Systems Corp, 101 Twin Dolphin Drive, Redwood City, CA 94065 ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 84 18:49:47 EST From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] Subject: AP's password "My mother was a test tube, my father was a knife" Sorry, I can't send over the net, this has to go to the bboard. have fun /amqueue ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 19-Mar SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #46 *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Mar 84 1339-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #46 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 19 Mar 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 46 Today's Topics: Books - Bradbury & Bradley & Brin (3 msgs) & Brunner & Niven & Story Request, Films - Star Trek III (2 msgs), Television - The New Dr Who ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wednesday, 14 Mar 1984 17:03-PST Subject: bradbury lecture at jpl From: Kevin W. Rudd I will mention that you want 210 West -- if you come from the San Fernando Valey you will need to turn left on Berkshire... It should be obvious, as there isn't much the other direction... -- Kevin ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 84 10:27:05-PST (Fri) From: sun!qubix!steven @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: THENDARA HOUSE > >> I state: In Thendara House, not a man from either culture is > >> presented as a loving, caring person; in NONE of [MZB]'s > >> books, does any "good" male protagonist like the society he > >> are > > cjh replies: > This statement, however, can be > tested objectively: both parts are horseshit, pure and simple. > Perhaps SM didn't bother finishing the book; Damon > Ridenow[-Alton?] and Andrew Carr appear rather late, but both of > them certainly qualify as "loving, caring person[s]"; the fact > that Damon is turns out to be one of the key elements in the book. Perhaps you should re-read my statement more carefully. I am talking about Thendara House, not The Forbidden Tower. In Thendara House, Damon and Andrew simply are presented simply as somewhat atypical nobility -- there is almost no exploration of their character at all, since the parts that they play are practically walk on bits. I realize that Damon and Andrew in Thendara House are NOT presented as total assholes, like every other male in the book, but this hardly misqualifies what I have said. cjh continues: > The second part requires a little more knowledge of the > Darkover books, but I would definitely point to Danilo [Syrtis? > S-Ardais? in HERITAGE OF HASTUR, and SHARRA'S EXILE], and add Lew > Alton after his father's death, several of the characters in > HAWKMISTRESS, all but one of the men in the reworking of THE > BLOODY SUN, and even Regis Hastur himself (RH dislikes the > constraints on him of being the heir-designate but is no > revolutionary, not even on the quiet level of Damon in THE > FORBIDDEN TOWER)---and this is a list from the top of my head. I > deliberately omit all of the early works since they are primarily > adventure stories rather than people stories. Oh I am not saying that all her good male protagonists turn out to be total revolutionaries against their own culture (only half do), even MZB has too much a sense of reality for that. It is just that EVERY good protagonist seems to spend at least 5 pages throughout every book deploring the culture in which he was born. Danilo, Lew, Damon, and Regis certainly do..... Now before you go to bed tonight, think about the likelihood of that happening -- every single good guy is at least a rebel sympathiser -- a secret feminist even though the word hasn't been invented yet. I believe that just about as much as I believe that all women are secret masochists -- just like it says in the GOR books.... MZB cannot seem to create a character which does not fit into her good guy/bad guy mold: For example, a man who loves his wife and children (golly, maybe he doesn't even beat her when their baby turns out to be a girl), but sure as hell isn't going to give them any modern-day freedoms... Steven (horseshit, pure and simple) Maurer ------------------------------ Date: 14 Mar 1984 1746-EST From: John Redford Subject: review of "The Practice Effect" "The Practice Effect" by David Brin The gimmick here is that there is a world where things become better through use. As you use a knife its edge becomes sharper and its handle better fitted. Beds become more comfortable, clothes more beautiful, walls stronger, etc. The hero, a 21st century physicist, has to figure this out and come to terms with it. Why did Brin bother to write about such an implausible premise? It's still a page-turner, but there doesn't seem to be much point. His explanation for the effect at the end of the book is extremely weak. Most of it is just fun and games in trying to exploit the effect. Each chapter seems to consist of the hero getting into a jam and escaping by introducing another bit of Earth technology to this feudal society. This "Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court" theme is a popular one in science fiction but there doesn't seem to be much justification for it here. Aside: how many other books can people think of that belong to this genre? There's "Lest Darkness Fall" by De Camp where an American saves the Roman Empire by introducing printing and double-entry bookkeeping, and "Conjure Wife" where they work out the laws of witchcraft by applying symbolic logic. Can you think of others? Brin has written some novellas recently that would seem to me to have much more promise for expansion. There was "The Postman" where civilization is restored by the US Postal Service, and another about a space station built out of Shuttle external tanks. It beats me why he spent his time working on this instead. I suppose that a full-time writer has to get out something to pay the bills. John Redford ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 84 9:40:08-PST (Mon) From: ihnp4!ihuxl!dcn @ Ucb-Vax Subject: New Brin Book I just read "The Practice Effect" by David Brin - a new book that caught me by surprise last weekend. I checked the publication date to make sure, and it said 1984! Anyway, it is a light-hearted book that makes the old idea of alternate universes (where magic really works) enjoyable and almost believable, even to a hard SF fan such as myself. As our hero is leaving his world, he is informed by his rival that one of the laws of thermodynamics seems to be a little different in the other world. The first half of the book is the hero's attempt to discover just what is different about the alternate universe and his attempts to return to Earth. The second half turns into a slightly less interesting chase sequence and a battle, but overall the quality and imagination remains at a fairly high level, with an occasional chuckle thrown in. I recommend the book highly. Dave Newkirk, ihnp4!ihuxl!dcn ------------------------------ Date: 14 Mar 84 13:29:35-PST (Wed) From: harpo!ulysses!allegra!rayssd!gmp @ Ucb-Vax Subject: The Practice Effect **teensie spoiler** I bought the book on Monday at a Waldenbooks. Although it could almost be renamed "Connecticut Yankee in a Parallel Universe", I really enjoyed it. If you liked the other David Brin books, you'll most likely enjoy this one as well. Gregory M. Paris {allegra,ccieng5,decvax!brunix,linus}!rayssd!gmp ------------------------------ Date: 14 Mar 1984 18:27:56-EST From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX To: mike@rice Subject: [mutilation] of THE SHOCKWAVE RIDER So far as Brunner himself has said (in "Noise Level", his column in SCIENCE FICTION REVIEW), tSR was altered not substantially but substantively. Two brothers, Jake(?) and Josh Treves, were merged into one by an overly-zealous editor/proofreader who halfwittedly assumed that the two different names were typoes from the manuscript or British edition. This error appeared in the American hardback edition, but not in the paperback, which he vigorously urged people to buy in preference. The Treves are not particularly major characters (the second appears 90+% of the way through) but if you work the plot out I think you find that they have to be in two places a large distance apart at a key point in the story; Brunner is meticulous about plotting and has frequently fulminated against editors (usually American) who change text without consulting the author (as I coedited his songbook (A NEW SETTLEMENT OF OLD SCORES) last summer, I know he can be quite gracious if shown why/that a change is necessary). ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 9 Mar 1984 12:58:54-PST From: decwrl!rhea!dosadi!binder (Do not adjust your set...) From: Subject: Larry Niven's story ARM -- SPOILER !! Niven introduces what I believe to be a horrendous inconsistency in "ARM" with his description of the behaviour of light inside the inertialess field of the dead man's machine. At one point, Jackson Bera comments to Gil Hamilton that it is exciting to be able to observe light moving at an apparent 300-odd miles per second inside the field due to the field's 500-fold increase in the rate of time. This remark is consistent with physics as I understand it, because photons are massless particles and hence have no inertia to be acted upon by the field. (It is a photon's lack of mass that permits AND CONSTRAINS it to travel at c.) But the two murdered organleggers' faces are described as being burned off by the beam of the killer's campout lantern as it emerged from the field and gained 500-fold in energy. And that is the inconsistency - if Bera observed light moving at the apparent reduced speed because the light was actually moving at c, then the beam of the campout lantern should behave the same way and not gain any energy upon exiting the field. There is sort of a halfway justification of the phenomenon by the description that the machine's violet glow was really a frequency-shifted display of heat, implying that the time speedup would cause emission of electromagnetic radiation at a 500-times higher frequency, but it still doesn't appear to work as long as we are dealing with inertialess particles. They can't be affected by the speedup, hence will be emitted at the "proper" frequency. If correct, then this assumption means that it would be dark inside the field unless it were bathed by the appropriate external high-energy radiation. Comments, corrections, etc.?? - Dick Binder decvax!decwrl!rhea!dosadi!binder ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 84 6:48:18-PST (Tue) From: ihnp4!ihu1g!ealee @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Looking for a Analog story I'm looking for a story that appeared in Analog magazine between 1977 and 1980. I don't remember the title or the author, but the story line went something like this: A space ship leaves earth with scientist and their families to explore a distant planet. Along the way various forms of games are used to entertain people, but the favorite is "Dungeon and Dragons". This is not the same "D and D" that we know now, but a more refined version that has no DM and takes place entirely in the heads of the players. Two of the players (who's characters are not involved in the main game at that time) have their characters have an affair. The space ship eventually get to its destination and drops off the two previously mentioned people and two others (one which is a "D and D" player). The 3 "D and D" players get in trouble while on the planet and rather than (or because they can't) figure out how to save themselves, they slip into their "D and D" characters. They eventually "kill" their "D and D" characters and figure out how to get out of their troubles. Thanks in advance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Liz Scheller-Lee "Back in Pooh Corner" ------------------------------ Date: 19 Mar 84 11:44:01 EST From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA Subject: More Stuff on STIII With the latest issue of STARLOG, comes more hints and pictures: 1. A picture of Kirk in civilian clothing, receving instructions from Director Nimoy. 2. A picture of Kirk, McCoy, Uhurha, Savvik, and Sarek. They are all standing on what might be the bridge of the Enterprise. Or, it might be that Vulcan Temple that I mentioned previously. You really can't tell. In any event, there they all are, looking mighty spiffy... 3. A picture of Sulu talking to somebody behind a "futuristic console". Said person is in uniform, Sulu is in civvies. This author used to be a security guard--something about the way this person looks indicates to me that he is filling the same position. 4. Kirk and McCoy, both in civvies, "instigating the SEARCH FOR SPOCK". 5. Uhura in uniform, on a transporter platform, with a phaser at the ready. The issue also contains a article by David Gerrold, NOT describing a preview that he attended of STIII. He talks about being invited, he says he had a great time, he says that you'll either love it or hate it, he says everyone is super, but he doesn't say a G--D-- thing about the plot!!! Moderator Jaffe attended Lunacon this weekend and allegedly saw a slide presentation (moderated by Howard Weinstein) on STIII. Perhaps if we bug him enough, he'll type in some remarks.... Frederick Paul Kiesche III ------------------------------ Date: 19 Mar 84 13:02:23 EST From: Saul Subject: Star trek III Folks, I have just returned from a weekend at Lunacon the New York/New Jersey regional event and there I witnessed an amazing slide show presented by Howard Weinstein (author of The Covenant of the Crown) on Star trek III: The Search for Spock. That is now the final title of the film and it looks like it will be a winner! Howard was not releasing lots of info about the film but he did say enough to get the following summary: The film starts with the Enterprise limping home after the battle with Khan. The ship enters a starbase in Earth orbit that dwarfs the ship and Kirk is relieved of command. Apparently the federation is upset with Kirk over the episode since the Romulans and Klingons view the Genesis bomb as a weapon. All I know about the rest of the plot is that Sarek (played by Mark Lenard) comes to visit Kirk, McCoy goes on a drinking binge, upset because he didn't talk Spock out of committing suicide, and Kirk watches computer tapes of McCoy and Spock in Engineering and himself and Spock in the famous death scene. He then SOMEHOW gets back the Enterprise (Howard wouldn't say how but the implication of the slides and his wording is that Kirk and his crew STEAL the ship back. We'll have to wait till June 1 to find out for sure) and goes off in search for Spock. James B. Sikking (of Hill Street Blues fame) plays the commander of the Excelsior the next generation ship after the Enterprise and it is equipped with something called Trans-warp drive and Christpher Lloyd (of Taxi fame) plays a klingon commander. I have no idea how they affect the story but I can't wait to find out! I wish today were June 1 !!!! Saul ------------------------------ Date: 14 Mar 84 15:41:55 EST (Wednesday) Subject: The new Dr Who From: Chris Heiny Well, our local station finally got around to showing the first Peter Davison episode, after promising it to us for over 6 months. Regeneration was not nearly as traumatic to me as it is to other people. I liked Davison, and found it a nice change from years of Tom Baker. Adric and the air hostess have got to go, though. Chris ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 19-Mar SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #47 *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Mar 84 1456-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #47 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 19 Mar 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 47 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (4 msgs) & Herbert (2 msgs) & May & Powers & Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers, Films - Movie Reviews & Star Wars (2 msgs), Television - Questor, Video - Star Trek, Miscellaneous - Proverbs & Nimoy Lecture ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14 Mar 1984 1716-PST From: tom@LOGICON Subject: Re: AP's password I have seen only two responses to my little challenge: "What is the recognition challenge/response by which Artificial Persons can identify themselves as members of the world-wide underground of APs?" The answer is NOT: "My mother was a test tube, my father was a knife." Actually, only the challenge is known. Friday is challenged at least twice, but does not make the correct response, probably because she has been separated from AP society by her guardian, Dr. Baldwin. You can send replies directly to me. I will forward any correct answers to the sig. Tom Perrine ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 84 14:58:39-PST (Tue) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!brl-vgr!ron @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Heinlein and FRIDAY I thought that it was her training as a professional cloak-and-dagger type courier that gained her the edge over the rape and torture, not the fact that she was AP. As a matter of fact, I think that using AP as a reason is contrary to some of the points that Heinlein was trying to express. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 84 12:40:12 EST From: DELTUVIA@RU-GREEN.ARPA Subject: Tom's Friday quiz That's a simple question - the answer must be in that book five or six times - "My mother was a test tube & my father was a knife" - here's a harder question - in which book did Mr. Two-canes appear before, and what are the names of the assassins in Friday's heritage?? John Deltuvia [Moderator's Note: Please respond directly to Deltuvia@RU-GREEN.] ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 84 13:43:25-PST (Mon) From: decvax!linus!utzoo!kcarroll @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Heinlein and FRIDAY I've got an idea: why not interpret the novel Friday based on what's in it, rather than what you wish was in it? The present controversy is over Friday's marrying a man who had previously raped her. Well, perhaps she wouldn't have thought of it that way; he was another AP like her, he was a member of her own profession (giving them a common interest), he helped her escape onto the colony planet (if I remember correctly). In addition, she wanted desperately to belong to a family; getting married is a good first step towards that. I don't remember whether or not there would have been other APs in the colonies; from what I remember, she felt that she couldn't trust regular people, because they might find out her background and turn against her. In that case, the rapist might have been the one person she could trust. Besides which, the guy had been kind to her (given that it was his job to rape her; he was kinder than the others involved), and she hadn't had to watch him as she was being raped. Perhaps that made it easier to forget the incident (especially since she'd "turned off" at the time). I must admit that I was rather lukewarm about Friday when first I read the book. Now, looking back on the half-remembered plot, and with the flames going back and forth on the net to stimulate thinking about it, I'm growing to appreciate it more. So, keep those flames burning! -Kieran A. Carroll ...decvax!utzoo!kcarroll ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 84 6:17:27-PST (Mon) From: ihnp4!inuxc!inuxg!burton @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Heretics of Dune - slight spoiler xx <- two footed stomp The March edition of Omni magazine contains a small excerpt from Frank Herbert's new Dune novel, Heretics of Dune. When I say small, I mean small! I haven't read Omni lately, but I seem to remember that when they excerpted Number of the Beast and Firestarter, the excerpts had some substance; I finished the Dune excerpt in less than 10 minutes. Anyway, the story seems to be taking place many generations after Leto II died and returned his spirit to the desert (i.e., returned the sandtrout vector of the sandworm to the desert to start making new sandworms). The excerpt is actually a flashback of an eleven-year-old priestess to when she was eight years old, and the circumstances that led to her position. It appears that, while the sandworms are back, they are not as powerful as before; the girl refers to a thirty meter worm as a big one, and if I remember correctly, that wasn't a very big worm in the time of Stilgar and Paul. Apparently, the Bene Gesserit (yes, the witches are still around!) have been waiting (of course) for someone to come along who has the power to control the sandworms, and she's the one. That's about it for the excerpt. As an aside, I just want to note that I will probably buy this one just to keep up the collection (as many of the net readers in net.comics are doing with the "Secret Wars"), but I really am not looking forward to reading it; I think Herbert had a great thing going with Dune, but he really shouldn't have made it into a series (by the way, what is the proper term for a collection of five books? Or six books?) I understand he signed a contract to continue the Dune saga to six books. Doug Burton ATT-CP Indianapolis inuxg!burton ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 84 5:38:23-PST (Tue) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!aplvax!eric @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Heretics of Dune - slight spoiler What is the proper term for a series of five or six books? How about a glut? or maybe just "too many". eric ...!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!eric ------------------------------ Date: Thu 15 Mar 84 00:41:13-EST From: Peter G. Trei Subject: Julian May's gender... Ugh. Mea culpa. I abase myself. Would you believe that I just looked through my entire set of Julian May, and found NO mention of her gender? The Pan paperbacks have nothing, and the Fawcett trade paperback of The Many-Colored Land evades the topic even in the micro-bio at the back. Peter ------------------------------ Date: 19 Mar 84 11:49:34 EST From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA Subject: THE ANNUBIS GATES To: jaffe@RU-BLUE.ARPA, zeve@RU-BLUE.ARPA, fischer@RU-BLUE.ARPA, Dear All: I know that this book has been discussed before, but, I thought that I would add my voice to the Cosmic Fugue... Run--do not walk--run to your nearest bookstore and buy THE ANNUBIS GATES by Time Powers. It has got to be one of the best reads that I have had all year, next to Robert W. Chambers THE SLAYER OF SOULS and David Brin's THE PRACTICE EFFECT. I bought it, sat down with it, and got up a day later...it is a real page-turner. I had to be dragged into NYC screaming and kicking to see an opera--I literally could not put the book down. Great--and strange characters, an interesting system of magic, a fantastic plot. Wow! Good stuff, I am now on a search for Time Powers' other book--THE DRAWING OF THE DARK. For those of you who like adapting books to RPGs, this would definately make a good one for such games as TIMESHIP, FRINGEWORTHY and CALL OF CTHULHU. Good stuff, good stuff. Frederick Paul Kiesche III ------------------------------ Date: 14 Mar 1984 17:36-PST From: Tom Wadlow Subject: Re: Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers > Date: 6 Mar 84 19:14:10-PST (Tue) > Message excerpts from: plabs!zehntel!tektronix!orca!andrew@Ucb-Vax > > . . . . In particular, most of Heinlein's works were well > and excellently lampooned. Oh, come on now!! SSotGR is clearly recognizable as a parody of the old space opera genre, most notably E.E. "Doc" Smith's Skylark and Lensmen series. The poor boy genius from the backwoods, and the rich cheese heir (the cheese absorbs water from the air, so if you don't eat it fast enough, you end up with more cheese than you started out with), converting the football team's 747 for interplanetary, and later interstellar flight...... > . . . . As such, I found it to be about the > funniest book I ever read. > > -- Andrew Klossner I heartily concur. But you *do* have to read a lot of the right SF to understand whatinhell is going on. Tom Wadlow ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Mar 84 09:16 PST From: NNicoll.ES@PARC-MAXC.ARPA Subject: Re: Desolation Opera (Movie Reviews) I'm surprised no one has mentioned the science fiction movies I have herewith gathered under the name of "Desolation Opera" : "MAD MAX" This was, I think the beginning of the genre (ripoff?) and sets the formula for the rest. The formula is (1.) Start with an opening of bombs and war and fade to scenes of desolation, (2.) Costume the characters in Heavy Metal, (3.) Have Mr. T design and build the vehicles out of whatever is handy, and, (4.) Paint the characters with as wide a brush as possible (heros are REAL heros, heroines have LARGE busts, villians are truly VILLANOUS, etc.... (5.) The story line goes good guys loose, then win a little, then loose again and finally win big, (6.) The hero rides off into the sunset at the conclusion of the movie. Mad Max is a brilliant film for the size of its budget and enjoyable as a "student" type work. "ROAD WARRIOR" Is a remake of Mad Max with a larger budget. "WARLORDS OF THE 21ST CENTURY" This little gem has a truck that must have taken Mr. T at least 15 minutes to weld together, some really funny lines (after the villian captures a village he casually tells his second in command to "Inventory and Requisition", the second turns to the third and snidely says "Inventory and Requisition, Willie", Willie runs off yelling "LOOT, LOOT", and all elements of the formula in exact sequence. "1999, THE BRONX WARRIORS" They didn't really need to set this one in the future. They used the modern day Bronx for the sets and the characters could be the ones running the place today. The story line is pure opera. "STRYKER" This is a basic Italian ripoff, poorly acted, dubbed and filmed. Not quite as bad as a "Golan-Globus" production, but not really worth the effort to sit thru. "ESCAPE FROM NEW YORK" This high budget number has good cinematography but otherwise......enjoy the formula one more time. Nick Nicoll ------------------------------ Date: 7 Mar 84 9:16:56-PST (Wed) From: ucbcad!tektronix!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!marla @ Ucb-Vax Subject: SW Dialog Trivia Contest OK, for all you Star Wars fans, here's a little trivia quiz to challenge your memory. However, unlike most trivia quizes, this one deals with your memory of who said what, when. NOTES: All questions are from the three Star Wars films, I will not accept any answers based upon the books. Please mail responses to me. I will post the correct answers sometime next week. Good luck. 1. What is the first spoken line in each of the three Star Wars films? Who said it? To whom? 2. What is the last spoken line in each of the three Star Wars films? Who said it? To whom? 3. How many times is the line "I've got a bad feeling about this!" said over the course of the three films? When? By whom? 4. How many times is the line "It's not my fault!" said over the course of the three films? When? By whom? 5. Most people know that James Earl Jones did the voice of Darth Vader even though David Prowse played the part. However, there is one scene where David Prowse's voice comes through. When? What does he say? Send replies to: Marla S. Baer ssc-vax!marla [Moderator's Note: Please send all responses directly to ssc-vax!marla. Responses sent to sf-lovers WILL NOT BE FORWARDED.] ------------------------------ Date: 14 Mar 84 12:47:13-PST (Wed) From: hplabs!tektronix!teklds!brianr @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Ewok Joke Haven't you all figured out yet that Ewok is Wookie with the last letter first? ------------------------------ Date: 1 Mar 84 19:47:37-PST (Thu) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uiucuxc!usadaca @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Orphaned Response - (nf) Questor's friend was played by Mike Farrell of MASH fame. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Mar 84 22:25 EST From: Winston B. Edmond Subject: Star Trek on videotape From the Sunday, March 11, 1984 Boston Herald: The indestructible "Star Trek" is once again going to boldly go where no one has gone before. Paramount Home Video plans to release all 79 episodes of the 1966-69 TV series exclusively on a direct-mail-only basis. Subscribers will receive a title a month for $19.95, regardless of tape or disc format. It's a good thing "Trekkies," who have turned a not-too-successful TV series into a billion-dollar industry, are used to waiting around for a good thing. The offering, which will start sometime later this year, will take 6 1/2 years to complete. But the payoff will be a chance to explore outer space again with Captain Kirk (William Shatner) and Mr. Spock (Leonard Nimoy) in the starship "Enterprise." -WBE ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Mar 1984 14:23:29 EST From: David M. Axler - MSCF Applications Mgr. From: Subject: Goosie Goosie Gander The last few issues have had lots of comments about the proverb, "What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander," offering various explanations for its meaning. Well, I'm a folklorist by training, and proverbs are one of the things we're supposed to be capable of dealing with (I had a full-semester course that dealt with nothing but proverbs and riddles, in fact), so I'll throw in my two cents. The critical thing about proverbs is that they are metaphorical comparisons, not just between the objects described by the proverb's words, but also between those objects and some portion of "reality," as it is perceived by the individual uttering the proverb. As a result, the "meaning" of a proverb is totally dependent on the context in which it's used. It's also possible that the speaker and the listener(s) will interpret it differently; in fact, that's quite likely, given the nature of metaphorical descriptions. Thus, in order to know what Spock (it was Spock, wasn't it?) really meant, we'd have to know what was in his mind when he used it. Given that he's not a human, there's a possibility that his intention was quite different than that assumed either by the viewers or the other characters in ST, since his understanding of the proverb's components might not have been what was expected. Many proverbs mean totally different things to different users. For instance, the old saw "A rolling stone gathers no moss" is generally explained by Scottish informants as indicating how peaceful it is to live a settled life, while Irish and British informants interpret it as meaning that one is better off being a rambler and avoiding the accoutrements of marriage/fixed dwelling/ etc. For those who want more info, references, etc., I'll be glad to provide them separately . . . no use taking up space in sfl for this, as it's a bit off the beaten path. Dave Axler ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 84 11:48:36 EST From: DELTUVIA@RU-GREEN.ARPA Subject: Lecture by Leonard Nimoy What: "In Search of...", a Lecture by Leonard Nimoy Where: Ocean County College, Toms River, NJ (about an hour south of NB) When: Wednesday, May 2, 1984, at 7:00 P.M. Cost: $6.00 (unless you're an OCC alumnus, in which case $4.00) More Info: (201) 255-4000, ask for the student center. -John Deltuvia ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 21-Mar SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #48 *** EOOH *** Date: 21 Mar 84 1132-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #48 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 21 Mar 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 48 Today's Topics: Books - Anderson & Dewdney & Farmer & Heinlein & Lem & Stapeldon & Villiers, Films - Movie Release Schedule & Creation of the Humanoids, Miscellaneous - Irresistable Force vs. Immovable Object & Proverbs & That Old Time Religion ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tuesday, 20 Mar 1984 14:37-PST Subject: D&D in Space From: meier@ISL at Sumex-Aim The story requested by Liz Scheller-Lee was "The Saturn Game" by Poul Anderson and is included in one of his collections which is currently being borrowed, so I can't quote the title of the anthology. The actual plot is that a team of about 100 scientists aboard a mobile habitat has gone to investigate the Saturnian system. At Saturn, they broke up into smaller research teams to investigate the various moons. The four protagonists of the sytem were sent to Iapetus(?). During the outbound trip, several D & D games were started among the crew and three of the protagonists were involved in a game. Unconsciously, these D & D games centered around fantasy environments that resembled the moons that the respective parties would be exploring. When placed in the actual satellite environments, the explorers acted as if they were in the fantasy environment, with deadly consequences. (Fighting dragons is always perilous even if the dragons are imagined.) Poul Anderson gives a detailed and credulous account of a potential problem that exists when people are subject to a closed community for a long time. His account shows how the psychological defenses built up against the closed environment can become lethal when the person is suddenly exposed to the right situation. This would be a serious problem for real space exploration except that the solution is obvious. (I'll not spoil the story by revealing it here.) His framing of the problem is both enjoyable and thought-provoking. I would highly recommend this story and the anthology that contains it. Bob (isl!meier@shasta) [Moderator's Note: Thanks also to the following people for the same information: Frederick Paul Kiesche III (Kiesche@RU-BLUE) hplabs!hp-pcd!orstcs!nathan @ Ucb-Vax Audrey Ishizaki (hplabs!saturn!ishizaki @ Ucb-Vax) Lee Gold () rg.jmturn%mit-oz@mit-mc d-lamb%tartan@cmu-cs-c ] ------------------------------ Date: Tue 20 Mar 84 01:15:25-EST From: Peter G. Trei Subject: The Planiverse, by AK Dewdney. The Planiverse (Computer contact with a two-dimensional world). by A.K. Dewdney. Poseiden Press (1984). $9.95, 267 pp., trade paperback. 0-671-46363-2 (-4 for hardback). Back when I was in high school, one of my math teachers, aware of my interest in SF, loaned me his copy of A. Abbott's Flatland, a fantasy written back in 1884 describing a society inhabiting a 2-dimensional universe. It was fascinating, and certainly one of the earliest alternate-universe stories I can think of (do check it out if you can). A.K. Dewdney, a CS professor at the University of Western Ontario, has updated the Abbott's idea, and drawn it out in far greater detail. With the collaboration of many scientists, he has restructured Flatland, giving it astrophysics, geology, chemistry, gravity, biology, and politics. In the book we follow Yndrd, an inhabitant of the planet Arde, as he travels across his world. He sees, (and we get to watch) two-dimensional fishing boats, housing, monsters, steelmills, and cities. He visits the local equivalent of a university, and we learn of two-dimensional biology, chemistry, and computer science (beleive it or not, you CAN make two signal paths cross in 2D, but it's tricky.) The 2D steam-engine is particularly elegant, and his people also travel by balloon and rocket. There is even a space station in orbit around his world. What makes this all SF rather than just a travelogue is the way we are in contact with Yndrd; Dr. Dewdney presents the contact as an accidental byproduct of an experimental simulation of a 2D world, which somehow resonated with a real Flatland, and put him into contact with it. On the periphery of the story are the efforts of himself and the few students in on the contact to keep it a secret from the university administration, which is firmly opposed to strange goings on in the CS building late at night. I can't say this is deathless prose, but if you saw the early report on this project which Martin Gardner made in Scientific American a couple years back, I know you will rush out to get it. If you liked Hal Clement's "Mission of Gravity" or Forward's more recent "Dragon's Egg", you will also like it. As an alternate-world story, it's a little weak on plot, but very strong on ideas and imagination. I cannot leave this review forgetting to mention that The Planiverse is copiously illustrated by the author, to its great advantage (try describing a two-dimensional piano without drawing it!). There is also an appendix which describes many of the facets of his world which Yndrd never get gets around to. Despite the price, this is a must-read book for anyone with an imagination. Peter Trei oc.trei%cu20b@columbia-20 PS: Has'nt the MZB/feminisim debate gotton a little out of hand? We are having comments on peoples comments on peoples comments! (Is that a self-referential sentence?). PT ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Mar 84 13:50 MST From: RNeal@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Farmer's Riverworld Well, I finally got up the drive to read The Magic Labyrinth (book 4 of Riverworld). It took a long time to start due to the discouraging reviews I have read in this meeting. I was pleasantly surprised. I enjoyed the book and I think it did quite a good job of wrapping up the Riverworld mystery. Maybe I missed something, but I thought the reason behind it all was quite good. The series is quite long, though, and I would not read it a second time. >RUSTY< RNeal.dm8%pco -at cisl ------------------------------ Date: 8 Mar 84 7:43:07-PST (Thu) From: ucbcad!tektronix!orca!iddic!rickc @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Heinlein and an oldie but goodie Good to see the defenses of Heinlein and Friday. I enjoyed Friday, and my wife who rarely reads sf also read and enjoyed it. Heinlein is no god, but he can write a very readable yarn. Rick Coates tektronix!iddic!rickc ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Mar 84 13:50 MST From: RNeal@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Stanislaw Lem Now to Lem. I have seen some transactions claiming what a great writer he is. I have read The Cyberiad, Solaris, and The Invincible. The Cyberiad was very good and very funny, and the other two (both novels, while The Cyberiad is a collection of shorts) started off well. But he has an extreme problem ending those two novels! The Invincible started off great and got better, but when I got to the end, I was looking for at least another chapter. It was as if he ran out of paper. It really ticked me off for such a great book to have such a lack of ending. I read Solaris because I heard some of the plot and was interested (and I figured it couldn't just drop off like the other did-he is supposed to be a good writer). ss Solaris is good about 1/3 of the way through. Then it starts a down hill run the likes of which I have never encountered before. By the time I waded through the muck to the end (I never leave a book unfinished) I wished I had never heard of Lem and never started this book! So that some of you out there will know what type of stuff I do like (so you can determine if these reviews will do you any good), my favorites are Niven, Chalker, Hogan, Piers Anthony, "Doc" Smith, and Alan Dean Foster to name a few... >RUSTY< RNeal.dm8%pco -at cisl ------------------------------ Date: 8 Mar 84 7:43:07-PST (Thu) From: ucbcad!tektronix!orca!iddic!rickc @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Heinlein and an oldie but goodie With all the discussion on the net of favorite and famous authors, I am surprised that Olaf Stapeldon has never been mentioned. His books Odd John (1935) and Sirius (1944) are readable and philosophically interesting. Together with his other books (Last and First Men (1930), Last Men in London (1932), and Star Maker (1937), all of which are less accesible than the first two) his work touches on almost all modern science fiction themes, from interplanetary travel to genetic engineering. If you're looking for sf with a different slant (heavily philosopical), or are interested in the history of sf, look into these books. Odd John and Sirius are available in one volume from Dover books, and the others are available from Penguin. Rick Coates tektronix!iddic!rickc ------------------------------ Date: Mon 19 Mar 84 12:58:32-PST From: Laurence R Brothers Subject: Query on Anthony Villiers At the end of the last book in the reprinting of the Anthony Villiers novels by ACE, there was a note to be on the alert for THE GALACTIC PANTOGRAPH, supposedly a forthcoming book. That was a couple of years ago. Does anyone know whether Panshin ever finished the book, and if so, was it published anywhere? -Laurence ------------------------------ Date: 19 Mar 84 11:35:51 EST From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA Subject: MOVIE RELEASE SCHEDULE Dear All: The latest STARLOG features a schedule for this summer's films--both SF and non-SF. Here then, is your chance to plan your summer schedule: March 9--SPLASH March 16--THE ICE PIRATES March 23--MUTANT MARCH 30--GREYSTOKE: THE LEGEND OF TARZAN, LORD OF THE APES ROMANCING THE STONE SPRING RELEASE DATES--TENTATIVE: HEARTS IN ARMOR SLAPSTICK* THE BROTHER FROM ANOTHER PLANET* April 13--ICEMAN May 11--FIRESTARTER May 18--FRIDAY THE 13TH, PART IV* May 23--INDIANA JONES AND THE TEMPLE OF DOOM (!!!!!!!!!!!) June 1--STAR TREK III--THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK (!!!!!!!!!!) June 8--GREMLINS STREETS OF FIRE June 15--GHOSTBUSTERS June 22--BUCKAROO BANZAI THE LAST STARFIGHTER July--sometime--THE PHILADELPHIA EXPERIMENT July 6--SUPERGIRL July 13--THE MUPPETS TAKE MANHATTEN July 29--RETURN OF THE DEAD* August 17--SHEENA, QUEEN OF THE JUNGLE CLOAK AND DAGGER Fall--sometime--CREEPSHOW II* CONAN II* October--sometime--THE NEVERENDING STORY* December 7--DUNE 2010: ODYSSEY TWO/2010: THE ODYSSEY CONTINUES* Christmas--STARMAN* ANNIE II* BABY* LADYHAWKE* *Tentative release date.... See you all in line! Frederick Paul Kiesche III ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 19 Mar 1984 20:02:11-PST From: decwrl!rhea!orphan!benson@Shasta Subject: Re: Creation of the Humanoids Creation of the Humanoids is my favorite "cheezy" sci-fi movie (the best kind). In fact, I have the original movie poster (from 1962) hanging on the wall nearby - it reads: NEVER HAS THE SCREEN BROUGHT YOU A MORE SHOCKING REVELATION! Man's Own Creation! Can he control machines that PRODUCE people? Out of a World War III Came... "THE CREATION OF THE HUMANOIDS" in Eastman Color Starring Don Megowan Erica Elliot Frances McCann Don Doolittle Produced by Edward J. Kay Directed by Wesley Barry Screenplay by Jay Simms A Genie Production Released through Emerson Film Enterprises Unfortunately I can't reproduce the stills and drawings in ASCII. The large center drawing shows two humanoids (who resemble DEVO members) working on another, in a glass tube. Four more are standing in tubes nearby. A still showing Craigus and his sister is captioned "Was she one of the green-blooded people?" which seems to bear no relation to what happens in the movie. A close up of a humanoid, which is also none too accurate, asks "Was this monster created by an electronic computer?" I think this is a must-see for anyone in the computer field. The adjective "talky", used in an earlier message about this movie, is very accurate. There are only about 5 very minimal sets, and little action. Even if you can't sit through the whole thing (though it's only 75 minutes long), be sure to tune in for the last 10 minutes. They're hilarious - to me, anyway. Tom Benson ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 84 21:31:07-PST (Tue) From: harpo!eagle!mhuxl!mhuxj!mhuxi!charm!mam @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Irresistable Force vs. Immovable Object A _______________+ Bug <--- [______________| | | |_____| >>Question was asked: A hypothetical paradox: What would happen in a >>battle between an Enterprise security team, who always get killed >>soon after appearing, and a squad of Imperial Stormtroopers, who >>can't hit the broad side of a planet? >>tom galloway Answer: The redshirts would get killed by whatever they were down there to investigate in the first place! If that happened to be the storm troopers, then they get killed by the ricochets. If all else fails, they can always get zapped by a plant. This would leave the stormtroopers free to crack themselves up on skybikes, shoot each other, and have their idea of a good time. If you worked for Moff Tarkin, maybe that's what you'd do? {BTL}!charm!mam ------------------------------ Date: Mon 19 Mar 84 18:27:56-EST From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA Subject: Goosey, goosey gander The nursery rhyme "Goosey, goosey gander" has nothing to do with the proverb "What's sauce for the Goose ...". The original rhyme reads Gandey, goosey gander Whither dost thou wander Upstairs, downstairs In Our Lady's chamber If we find a Proctor That will not say his prayers We'll grab him by his long gown And throw him down the stairs It is an undergraduate taunt, from the English Reformation, and refers to the regulation that all academics at the two English universities had to be practicing members of the Anglican church (which the undergraduates tended to enforce with rather unruly means - school prayer is an older issue than one might think) As is evident from the fourth line, the hapless Gandey was a closet - ahem - follower of the Roman rite, and thereby in danger of expulsion (offical) or defenestration (unofficial). Robert Firth ( MA(Oxon) ) ------------------------------ From: allegra!princeton!tilt!smw@Berkeley Date: 20 Mar 1984 03:07-EST Subject: That Old Time Religion (no, not ANOTHER verse!) In one verse, THREE great universes... We'll invoke the blessed Camber, < Katherine Kurtz's Deryni And the Unicorn of Amber, < Roger Zelazny's Amber And the wizard Deliamber, < Robert Silverberg's Majipoor They're good enough for me!! Stewart Wiener, Princeton Univ. EECS UUCP: allegra!princeton!tilt!smw ARPA: allegra!princeton!tilt!smw@Berkeley BITNET: Q2933@PUCC ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 23-Mar SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #49 *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Mar 84 1230-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #49 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 23 Mar 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 49 Today's Topics: Books - Bradley & Herbert (2 msgs) & The Void Captain's Tale & Best Novels of '84 & Stories Wanted, Films - Desolation Operas (2 msgs), Games - Chaosium Releases, Television - Dr. Who ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 19 Mar 84 12:51:43-PST (Mon) From: decvax!dartvax!betsy @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: THENDARA HOUSE Mr. Maurer would like to hear about For example, a man who loves his wife and children (golly, maybe he dosen't even beat her when their baby turns out to be a girl), but sure as hell isn't going to give them any modern-day freedoms... in one of MZB's novels. What about the title character's father, The MacAran, in *Hawkmistress*? He loves his daughter dearly, but he won't put up with any of her tomboy nonsense, and tries to force her into a marriage against her will. Yet he is presented as a sympathetic character. His daughter even loves him, in spite of their strong philosophical differences. (Just for the record, I thought that Mists of Avalon was terrible, even though I'm a rabid Arthurian. Maybe BECAUSE I'm a rabid Arthurian. So you don't have to be an MZB idolizer to like some of her works.) Betsy Perry UUCP: {decvax|linus|cornell}!dartvax!betsy CSNET: betsy@dartmouth ARPA: betsy%dartmouth@csnet-relay ------------------------------ Date: 15 Mar 84 15:31:00-PST (Thu) From: hplabs!hp-pcd!orstcs!nathan @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Heretics of Dune - slight spoiler Six books? A Sexology, of course! ------------------------------ Date: 19 Mar 84 13:51:52-PST (Mon) From: ihnp4!ihuxq!amigo2 @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Heretics of Dune - slight spoiler orstcs!nathan sez: >> Six books? A Sexology, of course! Nice try, Nathan, but it's a Hexology. John Hobson AT&T Bell Labs--Naperville, IL ihnp4!ihuxq!amigo2 ------------------------------ Date: 17 Mar 84 20:37:46-PST (Sat) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!ctvax!uokvax!jmike @ Ucb-Vax Subject: The Void Captain's Tale - (nf) This is a statement (story?) to defend "The Void Captain's Tale" which, in my opinion, is its own best defense. However since it can't be here to speak for itself, I shall attempt the effort. "The Void Captain's Tale" is a story about the ways and mores of a possible future society. To be more exact, this story is the conflict of one man's changing philosophy of life versus that of his society's. This note/response is prompted by a very surprising previous note giving warning to avoid this book. One person claimed the characters in this story to be shallow and therefore uninteresting. However I contend that the author purposely made these characters to be shallow -- *not* a shallowness of the ordinary sense but rather of a sense preprogrammed to create an impression of a society full of decadence and meaningless social ideals. Certainly the plot in this story is shallow! (if you consider it from an adventure book's point of view). But when one looks at the book as it was meant to be seen, one finds an incredibly fascinating interplay of social ideas. This is where the plot lies -- on a level that some people seem might overlook. Certainly there are some who would find this style uninteresting, but I would hardly call it weak. In reading this book, one is first amazed by the complex yet talented style in which the author writes. Then upon reflection the meaning of the book settles in like the pleasing aftertaste of a fine wine. It is rare that one finds an author *capable* of producing such works of intricate finery and I would warn any reader not to read such a book too fast lest he lose track of the flow, becoming confused or bored. I will give this warning. This book is not for everybody. There will be those who don't understand it and those who have no patience for the written style. But if you are not limited to this catagory, find a copy of "The Void Captain's Tale" and see what you are missing! ------------------------------ Date: Tue 20 Mar 84 00:24:11-PST From: Laurence R Brothers Subject: best novels of '84 Anubis Gates, Practice Effect ? You've got to be kidding. The Anubis Gates was one of those novels written in a deliberately obtuse style, so as to hide what is going on for as long as possible from the reader. I've seen worse attempts, I'll admit, but even besides the quality of the writing, which was only mediocre, the plot and story-ideas were pretty dumb. Really, magic being anti-terrestrial! And the Practice Effect was a pure hack; it wasn't particularly offensive, but hardly worth mentioning; both these novels are based on such bizarre premises that the writer would have to do an exceptional job of presenting the environment; in neither case was this accomplished. I liked the previous attempts of both writers much better than their latest productions. I nominate The Adversary for best novel so far of '84. This is not because The Adversary is that spectacular; it is not the best novel of the series, but I just haven't read anything very good this year. -Laurence I seem to have gone semi-colon happy in the first paragraph; oh well; no one's perfect. ------------------------------ Date: Mon 19 Mar 84 16:14:55-PST From: Andy Freeman Subject: pointer to stories wanted The stories I'm interested in were about physical constraints on beings and objects in science fiction stories. The ones I remember were an analysis on how the invisible man's eyes would work and a question about why giant spiders don't asphyxiate instead of destroying NYC. It was in response to an earlier story which stated baldly that the invisible man must be blind. (The constants work out so that the dark spots are dim enough that you would probably not notice them.) Please respond directly to andy@su-score as I am not a subscriber. thanks, -andy ------------------------------ Date: Wed 21 Mar 84 01:42:58-EST From: Joseph A. Frisbie Subject: Desolation movies. I'd like to point out that Mad Max occurs in a contemporary pre-holocaust setting. It is basically cops driving around in suped-up cars chasing motorcycle gangs. Road Warrior is a very loose sequel, the only thing they have in common is the main character. Another movie you should add to the list is Damnation Alley. Joe ------------------------------ Date: 26 Mar 84 22:08:27-EST (Mon) From: decvax!decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian @ Ucb-Vax Subject: re: Desolation Operas While I agree with the point that Nick Nicoll was making about "Desolation Opera" movies, I object to his simply tossing off THE ROAD WARRIOR as just a bigger budget remake of MAD MAX. Superficially, that seems to be the case, but thematically, they are complete opposites. In MAD MAX, our hero is a caring human being, who while believing that his job of "serving and protecting" is an important one, also is becoming disillusioned with the restraints that the police have to work under (a common vigilante theme), especially when his best friend on the force is burned almost to death after a member of the biker gang is released on a technicality. In addition, he seems to have a growing distaste for the not-by-the-book practices of many of the police, to the point where he tells his supervisor something on the order of, "The only difference between us and them is that we're wearing badges." By the end of the film, he has lost everything that he cares about in the world, his best friend, his wife, and his son. As a result, he also loses his humanity. In THE ROAD WARRIOR, we see Max as just another desert rat, roaming the roads searching for food and petrol, scavenging it from wrecks, or stealing it from others. Human life means nothing to him these days; notice how he treats the Gyro Captain. Whoever has the gold makes the rules, Might makes right, and all that. What his travails in this film do is to show him that alone, he *is* just another scavenger, and that human life and the need to strive for something better is worthwhile. He finds that he needs others just as others need him, and this very fact helps him regain the humanity that he lost in the first film. This is a common theme in literature --- the losing of humanity (or faith or whatever other positive values) and the regaining of same through dramatic conflict. Usually this is done all in one story, whereas with Max, it's done in two. Perhaps instead of a remake of MAD MAX, THE ROAD WARRIOR is really the completion of MAD MAX. I recall a couple of interviews with George Miller in which he said that he wouldn't do a third Mad Max film just for the sake of doing another one, but only if he had a theme that expanded the character to the next step (whatever that might be). The fact that he is supposedly doing a third film presumably means that he's found such a theme, and if he has, I look forward to that film more than just about any other. While it may sound pretentious to say so, I have to agree with the assessment that Mad Max is an epic character in the true sense of the term. Put in a way perhaps more familiar to SF/Fantasy fans, I see Max as being yet another aspect of Moorcock's concept of The Eternal Champion, seen in terms of the society that he is part of --- the Road Warrior. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard) UUCP: (decvax!decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian) ARPA: (decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian@Shasta) ------------------------------ Date: 20 Mar 84 13:33:05 EST From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA Subject: Chaosium Releases Cc: fischer@RU-BLUE.ARPA, jaffe@RU-BLUE.ARPA, sherman@RU-BLUE.ARPA I just got a catalog (dated Winter 1983...so they are a little slow...) from CHAOSIUM GAMES, which includes mention of the following new releases: Masks of Nyarlathotep (for CALL OF CTHULHU), an adventure which promises to be "the largest and most extensive published to date". Release date is Winter, 1983--however, I haven't seen it yet, so I would guess that gremlins have delayed this product. Ringworld--a major new RPG, based on the works of Larry Niven. Again, release date is indicated to be Winter, 1983, but again, delays have cropped up. Elfquest--a major RPG based on the comics/books/etc., of the same name...Release is slated for Winter, 1984. Pendragon--a RPG based on the legends of King Arthur, Lancelot, et al. Release is for Spring, 1984. Stormbringer Companion--a companion guide to the RPG Stormbringer. Now out. The King Arthur Companion--a LITERARY companion to the Arthurian legends. Not for any particular gaming system, or even for games in particular. More news as it develops... Frederick Paul Kiesche III ------------------------------ Date: Mon 19 Mar 84 18:21:58-EST From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA Subject: The Drs Who Upto the showing of The Five Doctors, the Doctors had been: 1. William Hartnell (1963-1966) - now alas deceased "He was an irascible, snappy old man ... a brilliant eccentric old man who had no patience at all with us common mortals" [ all quotes from the BBC Dr Who 20th Anniversary Special ] When Mr Hartnell had to leave, through ill-health, the series authors came up with the idea of having the Docoter "regenerate", which he did at the end of "The Tenth Planet" amid scenes of snowy desolation in Antarctica. 2. Patrick Troughton (1966-1969) "I started off by making him very clownish, and going over the top really, partly to make a very clean break from Bill's Doctor" This was the twit with the flute, and some rather unappealing silly companions. Mr Troughton also played in The Six Wives of Henry VIII. At the end of The War Games, the Time Lords finally caught up with the Doctor, and enforced another regeneration. They also stopped him travelling in time and space by removing part of his Tardis. 3. Jon Pertwee (1969-1974) "... my Doctor was the Dandy!" In my opinion, the best Doctor. The +XIX opera gear was great, and the adventures were well plotted (probably because the writers couldn't just dump the Tardis somewhere strange and waste three reels teasing us about just where or when they all were). This was also the Doctor of UNIT, Brig. Lethbridge-Stewart, and Katy Manning. It is rumoured that Mr Pertwee was very upset when Miss Manning left the series to get married, and his emotion at the end of The Green Death was not all unreal. In fact, Mr Pertwee stayed for a further 4 stories, and regenerated in Planet of the Spiders, after almost being destroyed when the Great One exploded. 4. Tom Baker (1974-1979) "What the Doctor did have, he [Mr Baker] hopes, was a certain childlike quality, a genuine curiosity about anything and everything, ... the capacity for being constantly surprised" Mr Baker could also play well with the Companions: the cross- characterisation with Louise Jameson and Lalla Ward was far more believable that the stuff in the old days, when the Doctor was omnicompetent and all the girls had to do was scream at the right moment. He regenerated after Logopolis, ostensibly because he had been injured falling off a radio telescope; in fact to marry Lalla Ward. He later appeared as Rasputin in a BBC play (and Lalla Ward was Ophelia in that dreadfully limp BBC Hamlet). 5. Peter Davison (1979-1983) "I felt it was very important to put back the idea that the Doctor was vulnerable, and could be defeated" The last of the five. I haven't even seen the sixth yet, so can't comment. The Dr Who 20th Anniversary Special (Copyright BBC MCMLXXXIII) is obtainable from BBC Publications 35 Marylebone High Street London W1M 4AA England price 30/- or L1-50 in that damned decimal money. "Doctor, are you SURE this is Pittsburgh?" - Robert Firth ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 26-Mar SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #50 *** EOOH *** Date: 26 Mar 84 1349-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #50 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 26 Mar 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 50 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Bradley & Brin & Delany & Dewdney & Hubbard (4 msgs) & Lem & Niven & Silverberg & Stapledon & Villiers & Title Request, Films - Movie Query & High Speed Film & Star Wars, Television - V & Dr. Who, Miscellaneous - FTL ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Platt Subject: Long train trip for Dr. A.? Date: Sun, 25 Mar 84 13:14 EST In the most recent issue of InfoWorld (April 9) there is an upcoming announcement for the "International Personal Robot Congress and Exposition 1984" being held in Albuquerque, New Mexico. The keynote speaker is Dr. Isaac Asimov. Asimov dislikes flying. Does anyone know if he is actually speaking at the IPRCaE? -steve ------------------------------ Date: 20 Mar 84 13:38:21-PST (Tue) From: sun!qubix!steven @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: THENDARA HOUSE > What about the title character's father, The MacAran, in > *Hawkmistress*? He loves his daughter dearly, but he won't put > up with any of her tomboy nonsense, and tries to force her into > a marriage against her will. Yet he is presented as a > sympathetic character. His daughter even loves him, in spite of > their strong philosophical differences. Hmmm, you might have got me there. I haven't read the book. (I think about the only one I don't have). Does he finally recant later in the story?? (like what happened in Two to Conquer). Steven Maurer ------------------------------ Date: 20 Mar 84 1:38:00-PST (Tue) From: hplabs!zehntel!zinfandel!berry @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: The Practice Effect **teensie spoile - (nf) I liked 'The Practice Effect' too. I sure wish I could 'practice' my programs. Imagine how good uucp would be by now! Or FORTRAN! --berry ------------------------------ Date: 22 Mar 84 14:11:04-PST (Thu) From: harpo!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!louie @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Farmer's Riverworld and Stanislaw Lem Dhalgren! I thought I was really missing something. I've never been able to get past the first 100 pages or so on a number of attempts to read it. Anyone want a copy of it for REAL cheap? This is definitely one I don't want to keep. Louis A. Mamakos - Computer Science Center (Systems Staff) - Univ. of Maryland Internet: louie@cvl.ARPA uucp: ...!{seismo,ihnp4,allegra}!rlgvax!cvl!louie ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Mar 84 12:28:51 pst From: Dennis Cottel Subject: Re: A. K. Dewdney Beginning next month, A. K. Dewdney, author of the recently reviewed 'The Planiverse', will be writing the "Computer Recreations" department of Scientific American. ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 21 Mar 1984 20:08:06-PST From: clairmont%elwood.DEC@purdue-merlin.ARPA (Are we having fun From: yet?) Subject: Battlefield Earth Has anybody read "Battlefield Earth" by L. Ron Hubbard, a relatively new publication in paperback? I recently enjoyed "The Forever War" by Joe Haldeman (?) and wonder if the same sort of shoot-'em-up high tech action exists in the new book. Gary Clairmont ------------------------------ Date: 20 Mar 84 14:30:32-PST (Tue) From: ihnp4!ihuxf!rls @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Battle Field Earth Battle Field Earth is a classic example of what advertising can do for a really poor book. The kind of book that critics of Sci-Fi point to and laugh. L. Ron Hubbard (he can't even write his name correctly) should have written a few Perry Rhodan books, he would have fit right in... Rick Schieve ------------------------------ Date: 21 Mar 84 12:33:38-PST (Wed) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!uwvax!neves @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Battle Field Earth Battlefield Earth is a good book. I bought it a few weeks ago when it came out in paperback (I'm a sucker for large books) and was surprised it was as good as it was. Believe it or not I was not bored reading any part of the 1100 pages. It is none stop action in the tradition of the early science fiction of the 40's and 50's. The story (which is man vs alien) and future environment is believable and interesting. Unlike many large books it does not span centuries but takes place in just a few years time with a relatively small main cast of characters. The story revolves around an alien mining company that has taken over earth to mine its minerals. The human race has been largely decimated, there are just a few thousand left, living like primitives. An amusing couple of paragraphs in the beginning of the book shows how the mining company found out about earth. " Man apparently sent out some kind of probe that gave full directions to the place, had pictures of man on it and everything. It got picked up by a Psychlo recon. And you know what? [...] The probe and the pictures were on a metal that was rare everywhere and worth a clanking fortune. And Intergalactic paid the Psychlo governors sixth trillion Galactic credits for the directions and the concession." -dave ------------------------------ Date: 22 Mar 84 6:23:14-PST (Thu) From: ihnp4!ihuxf!rls @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Battle Field Earth What trash!! A hero named "Jonnie Goodboy Tyler", that saves the world from believable bay guy aliens, exterminating the whole race of aliens almost single-handedly only to face the worst challenge to the earth's safety...... REPOSSESSION by the GALACTIC BANK!!!!!! no thanks L. Ron Hubbard (the L. must stand for Ludicrous) Rick Schieve ------------------------------ Date: 21 Mar 84 14:33:13-PST (Wed) From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!houti!ariel!vax135!floyd!clyde!watmath!utzoo!h From: cr @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Farmer's Riverworld and Stanislaw Lem Cheers! I couldn't agree more. I had heard that Solaris was considered one of S-F's classics, and therefore thought that I was missing the point as I read the story. By the end of it however, I realized that pseudo-sentient world books were simply not up my alley. It was nearly as bad as Dahlgren, and I really deserve a medal for reading THAT one to the end. Paul Bonneau hcr!hcrvax!paulb ------------------------------ Date: 21 Mar 84 10:20:37-EDT (Wed) From: Jcc%nsf-cs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa Subject: Larry Niven/Integral Trees Larry Niven will be autographing copies of Integral Trees in Washington DC at the Moonstone Bookstore 2145 Pennsylvania Ave. on March 28th. For details call the store. john cherniavsky jcc.nsf@csnet-relay ------------------------------ Date: 20 Mar 84 11:06:26-EDT (Tue) From: Jcc%nsf-cs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa Subject: DYING INSIDE One of Silverberg's better novels, DYING INSIDE, has just been re-issued. In broad outline, the story concerns a man losing his gift of telepathy (receive only variety). In style and tone it is similar to Silverberg's THE BOOK OF SKULLS. I highly recommend it. In my opinion it is one of the best written SF novels I've come across. john cherniavsky jcc.nsf@csnet-relay ------------------------------ Subject: more Stapeldon Date: Thu, 22 Mar 84 15:31:37 EST From: Peter Midford I'm glad someone got around to mentioning one of my favorites. I can add Nebula Maker (posthumous 1976) has been widely availible in from Dodd and Mead for the past few months. This predcessor to Star Maker is shorter and a little more accessible introduction to the different style of Last and First Men and Star Maker. I wasn't as pleased with the essays. Finally does anyone know if Darkness and Light (1942 ?) is avalible/in print? Kir azu Peter Midford ------------------------------ Date: 22 Mar 84 9:01:25-PST (Thu) From: decvax!dartvax!betsy @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Query on Anthony Villiers I spoke to Alexei Panshin at Boskone this year (February, 1984) about the Villiers books. He said that 'there would be five to seven of them eventually, but that the Ace publications (now out-of-print) were the only ones which had seen the light of day.' *deep sigh*. Anybody know of a good source for the out-of-print Panshin books? (I'd be happy to pay postage, finders fees, etc. etc.) Betsy Perry UUCP: {decvax|linus|cornell}!dartvax!betsy CSNET: betsy@dartmouth ARPA: betsy%dartmouth@csnet-relay ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 22 Mar 1984 07:38:26-PST From: bishop_2%babel.DEC@purdue-merlin.ARPA (JB) Subject: Title Request I'm trying to find the author and title of a story or novelette in which the hero, a reporter named Flannery, is sent to the planet Frostbite and uncovers a drug ring run by a man named Parsons. The drug is called "JKB", and is supposedly addictive with one dose. The technology of news is all newspaper-style, complete with an AP wire service. Thank you. -John Bishop ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 84 13:20:37 PST From: Willard Korfhage Subject: Movie query: Stalker, Solaris I see by a movie schedule that "Stalker" and "Solaris" (Soviet films by director Andrei Tarkoysky) will be appearing out here. Does anyone have comments about these? Stalker was mentioned some time ago in SFL, but I can't get at the old SFL volumes and look it up. Thanks, Willard Korfhage korfhage@ucla-ats ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Mar 84 15:01:29 EST From: Craig MacFarlane Subject: high spped film Hello, Has any one been keeping up with what is going on with high speed film? I was reading somewhere that Lucas or Spielberg was working on a film that had twice as many frames per second as normal. They said that the more you increase the number of frames per second the more reaction and emotion the audience feels. They assimilated the effect as the same as the brainstorm type tape. The idea wouldn't go over big because of the cost of replacing all the projection equipment and the amount of film needed, but it might be good for certain areas. Any info on this subject would be appreciated. thanks, craig ------------------------------ Date: 21 Mar 84 10:27:23-PST (Wed) From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!houti!ariel!vax135!floyd!clyde!akgua!gatech!dj From: b @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Edited Star Wars & book comment Your memory is still intact (you haven't lost your sanity). The scenes which you were missing were in the novel not in the movie. As for the title "A New Hope" - my understanding is that that was added when George Lucas decided that Star Wars was a large enough success to go ahead with his original plan - a trilogy of trilogies. Star Wars happens to be the first of the middle trilogy. (I wish I could remember wehre I heard/read/hallucinated all this....seems I have the impression that the source was reliable.) As for reading the books - I have found that I enjoy both the book and the movie much more if I see the movie a couple of times, read the book, and then go for the record numbers of sittings in a theater. The books bring out some personal background for certain situations which are not apparent in the film (Darth Vader's return to 'good' for example). (Anybody else think AT&T's new logo looks like the Death Star?????) David 'have you been under the raised floor today?' Buechner UUCP : ...!{akgua,allegra,emory,rlgvax,sb1,ut-ngp,ut-sally}!gatech!djb ARPA : djb.gatech@CSNet-Relay CSNET : djb@gatech Federal snail : Ga. Tech P.O. Box 33336, Atlanta, Georgia 30332 Newsgroups: net.movies.sw ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Mar 84 07:14 MST From: Dickson.Scouting@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA (Paul W. Dickson) Subject: V I just read in my morning newspaper that NBC will be showing "V Part II: The Final Act" on May 6th through the 8th. The article was on how, when the networks final show something worth watching, another network shows something that is equally interesting at the same time (the other show is "The Last Days of Pompei" on ABC). Paul Dickson Dickson%pco@cisl P.S. Has anyone notice that when you sound out miniseries you get min-is-er-ies. ------------------------------ Date: 21 Mar 84 14:31:58-PST (Wed) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!rocksvax!sunybcs!hobbit @ Ucb-Vax Subject: The new Dr Who This is in response to Chris Heiny's article a while back in sf-lovers. I tried to get a reply through, but the UUCP to ARPA daemon showed up. Steve Clark will also be interested.... Regarding Adric and Tegan Jovanka.... Some good news and some bad news....Adric does go...Tegan Jovanka, on the other hand, is around until the end of the Davisons. Chris, you, as well as everyone else who is finally getting to see Doctor 5, should be seeing "Earthshock" shortly, in which the CYBERMEN return, and Adric is made to leave. Please note, however, that Jamie (from the Troughton era) was as, if not more, annoying than Adric. Happy Times and Places, -The Parker Hobbit a.k.a. Thomas R. Pellitieri UUCP: {allegra, seismo}!rochester!rocksvax!sunybcs!hobbit decvax!watmath!sunybcs!hobbit ARPA & CSNET: hobbit.buffalo@rand-relay ------------------------------ Date: 21 Mar 84 23:14:26-PST (Wed) From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!floyd!cmcl2!lanl-a!unm From: -cvax!nmtvax!cooley @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: FTL FTL travel has interesting possibilities when you consider time as a series of events perceived by the senses and strung together as a continuous line by consciousness. This is the same as saying that time is simultaneous and all events happen at the same "time". If such is the case than the likely place to go when one passes the speed of light is into a different probability system. Note: I'm not saying that the speed of light is a barrier, but merely that as you approach the speed of light, your perceptual network becomes discontinuous with the networks of those at different speeds (relative to you). If you were a telepath traveling at very near the speed of light, and you tuned in to a telepath moving at a relatively slow speed, would you be able to read his/her thoughts or would they be too fast? After all, if two photons are traveling towards each other at the speed of light, isn't the distance between them shrinking at twice the speed of light? Both the photons and the distance between them are perceptual objects: In one framework we are measuring speed of travel from point A to point B, in the other we are measuring rate of shrinkage. 1 = 1c, 2 = 2c. Michael Cooley Socorro, NM c/o twilight zone ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 27-Mar SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #51 *** EOOH *** Date: 27 Mar 84 1412-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #51 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 27 Mar 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 51 Today's Topics: Books - Brin & Clements & Heinlein & Hubbard & Kornbluth & Soviet SF, Films - "Stalker" and "Solaris" & High Speed Films (3 msgs), Television - Dr. Who (3 msgs) & The Tomorrow People ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 27 Mar 1984 at 06:37 EST From: ZEICHICK%MAINE.BITNET@Berkeley Subject: "The Practice Effect" I just finished David Brin's new "The Practice Effect"; it's a good book, but not as promising as his earlier two. The book is set in a different context; the hero is a Earth mathematical physicist who travels to a world with different physical laws - the "Practice Effect". Unfortunately, Brin's final explanation for everything - like in "Sundiver" - is a bit obscure. He still has his tendency for too many '!' marks, too. I wouldn't rate this book as his best - "Startide Rising" still is that. However, for $2.75 it's well worth reading. And I am looking forward to his next book... -Alan ------------------------------ Date: 25 Mar 84 23:04:37-PST (Sun) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!zben @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Title Request ("Frostbite, drugs") [I took the liberty of adding to the subject. It was unreasonably general.] I'm trying to find the author and title of a story or novelette in which the hero, a reporter named Flannery, is sent to the planet Frostbite and uncovers a drug ring run by a man named Parsons. The drug is called "JKB", and is supposedly addictive with one dose. The technology of news is all newspaper-style, complete with an AP wire service. Thank you. -John Bishop This sounds much like a book by Hal Clements titled "Iceworld". I won't spoil it for other readers, but does the name "tofacco" mean anything to you? You might also be interested in "The Nitrogen Fix", by the same author. Ben Cranston ...seismo!umcp-cs!zben zben@umd2.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 20 Mar 84 19:59:49-PST (Tue) From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!pegasus!hocse!dls @ Ucb-Vax Subject: FRIDAY and Heinlein Here comes my off-net friend again: Commentary on: > From kcarroll@utzoo.UUCP Wed Dec 31 19:00:00 1969 > Newsgroups: net.sf-lovers > Subject: Re: Heinlein and FRIDAY > Date: Mon, 12-Mar-84 16:43:25 EST > > I've got an idea: why not interpret the novel Friday based on > what's in it, rather than what you wish was in it? A cheap shot. Besides, most criticism of a book consist of telling what you think the author did wrong and what he/she should have done instead, i.e. what you wish was in the book. > The present controversy is over Friday's marrying a man who had > previously raped her. Well, perhaps she wouldn't have thought > of it that way; he was another AP like her, he was a member of > her own profession (giving them a common interest), he helped > her escape onto the colony planet (if I remember correctly). In > addition, she wanted desperately to belong to a family; getting > married is a good first step towards that. This is like saying if a chemist is raped by another chemist, they are both human beings and they have their work in common. Give me a break! > I don't remember whether or not there would have been other APs > in the colonies; from what I remember, she felt that she > couldn't trust regular people, because they might find out her > background and turn against her. In that case, the rapist > might have been the one person she could trust. Run that one by me again please? > Besides which, the guy had been kind to her (given that it was > his job to rape her; he was kinder than the others involved), > and she hadn't had to watch him as she was being raped. Perhaps > that made it easier to forget the incident (especially since > she'd "turned off" at the time). The one reasonable point in this whole item. > I must admit that I was rather lukewarm about Friday when first > I read the book. Now, looking back on the half-remembered plot, > and with the flames going back and forth on the net to > stimulate thinking about it, I'm growing to appreciate it more. > So, keep those flames burning! > .XS > -Kieran A. Carroll > ...decvax!utzoo!kcarroll Well, I did want to stimulate thinking. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 84 1102 EST (Tuesday) From: Bob.Colwell@CMU-CS-A Subject: L. Ron Hubbard Is this L. Ron Hubbard the same bozo who fabricated the pseudo-science of Dianetics from whole cloth, spawning the Scientology cult? On that premise alone I have avoided even looking very closely at Battlefield Earth. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Mar 1984 18:26:17-EST From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX Subject: title request: Flannery/Frostbite/Parsons/JKB This is "Make Mine Mars", by Cyril M. Kornbluth; it's the first story in his collection A MILE BEYOND THE MOON, and may have been reprinted elsewhere as well. Note that newspaper technology doesn't appear at all; Flannery is a reporter \\for a wire service//. (A classic example of a writer's professions-to-eat-by getting built into his fiction; Kornbluth was a writer for a wire service for many years. Elements of this also appear in his novel THE SYNDIC). ------------------------------ Date: 24 Mar 84 6:54:56-PST (Sat) From: decvax!dartvax!karl @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Gusliar Wonders. A number of people have recently mentioned Soviet science fiction, which has reminded me of an excellent collection of short stories I recently read by Kirill Bulychev. ( I hope I spelled the name right. ) The book is titled Gusliar Wonders, and has a number of truly remarkable stories in it. ( It also has some that aren't so remarkable. ) It is put out by Macmillan, and one of the blurbs on the cover informed me "This is part of a continuing effort by Macmillan to expand the horizons of modern science fiction with this Soviet series." Or words to that effect. Has anyone read any of the other books in the Macmillan series? Or indeed any Russian authors at all? {cornell,decvax}!dartvax!karl // karl@dartmouth ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 84 14:26:33 PST From: Peter Reiher Subject: "Stalker" and "Solaris" These are a pair of science fiction movies by a Soviet director named Andrei Tarkovsky. The easiest way to tell if you would like them is your reaction to "2001". If any moment of "2001" bored you, you're not going to like "Stalker" at all, and probably not "Solaris", either. Tarkovsky's films are beautiful, but slow. (He's particularly fond of shots of shallow water filled with assorted debris). Shots tend to be long, and the story doesn't move quickly. For that matter, the films themselves tend to be long (2 1/2 hrs. +). You need patience to appreciate them, but they have many virtues for those who can stick with them. What makes them really difficult is that, in order to appreciate them, you absolutely must pay attention to them, even in the slower moments. "Solaris" is based on the Lem novel recently discussed in the digest. I haven't read the book, but I strongly suspect that it is much less cryptic than the film. It concerns a space station set up above a living planet. The planet has bizarre effects on the scientists in the station, even driving some of them to suicide. Another scientist is sent to investigate, and the film is basically about his investigation. No big special effects shots, no shoot-outs or mad chases, almost no action in the conventional sense. Personally, I prefer "Stalker", which is even slower. Some unexplained disaster has caused weird effects in an area of Russia. Soldiers sent in to investigate it disappear. The Soviets wall the area off, and patrol the boundaries. However, a rumor has gotten out that there is a room somewhere in the area (called "The Zone") which, if visited, will give the visitor his true heart's desire. Two men, a writer and a scientist, hire a guide, known as a stalker, to take them into the Zone. It seems peaceful and harmless, but any mistep can result in their deaths (or maybe it won't; nothing is certain in the Zone). The stalker, who can never visit the room himself, must guide his skeptical clients through the invisible hazards. Don't get the idea that this is terribly suspenseful. The pace of the film is stately, to put it politely. The visuals are stunning, though, and there is great intelligence behind the film. Again, no real action or special effects. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 84 15:16:35 est From: mar@mit-borax (Mark A. Rosenstein) Subject: Re: high speed film Yes, there is a new high-speed film format being developed. However, it is Douglass Trumbal (of Brainstorm) who is pushing it, and you won't see it in a theatre, but in an amusement park. It's called showscan. It uses 70mm film shown at 60 frames per second onto a spherecal screen. It does cause more emotional reaction to the film. Because of the cost, Trumball has not gotten backing from any studios yet. He tried to see it to Showbiz Pizza, but they decided it was too much for their setup. He has made a short film in it, and there are a couple of theatres in amusement parks. I hope this is accurate. There was an article about it in Boxoffice a couple of months ago, but I don't have it with me now. -Mark ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 26 March 1984, 14:21-PST From: Reynolds at Rand-Unix Subject: "Showscan" / high frame rate film projection Date: Fri, 23 Mar 84 15:01:29 EST From: Craig MacFarlane Subject: high spped film Hello, Has any one been keeping up with what is going on with high speed film? I was reading somewhere that Lucas or Spielberg was working on a film that had twice as many frames per second as normal. They said that the more you increase the number of frames per second the more reaction and emotion the audience feels. They assimilated the effect as the same as the brainstorm type tape. The idea wouldn't go over big because of the cost of replacing all the projection equipment and the amount of film needed, but it might be good for certain areas. Any info on this subject would be appreciated. thanks, craig You almost got it right. The projection system is called "Showscan" and is being pushed by Douglas Trumbull. The frame rate is 60 hertz and the film format is 70mm, but a 35mm version exists. Interesting you should make the comparison to the tapes in "Brainstorm". That film (produced by Trumbull) was originally intended as a vehicle for the introduction of Showscan to the theaters. The idea was that the "brainstorm device POV" scenes would be in 70mm 60hz Showscan, and the mundane world view would be done in 35mm 24hz format (printed up to Showscan). As it was, that project could not get funding and the concept became to switch between "Academy Apreture" and widescreen format. -c ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 84 21:27:08 CST From: Mike Caplinger Subject: Re: high speed film As you might guess from the BRAINSTORM reference, high-speed film is the brainchild of Doug Trumbull, director of BRAINSTORM and SILENT RUNNING. It is currently being tested in some pizza chain (Showtime Pizza?) regionally, and a friend of mine in Dallas who has seen the demo film says it is very, very, impressive. (He actually used the predictable "knocks your socks off" phrase.) Sorry, but I don't remember the name of the process or any technical details other than the high frame rate. Apparently Trumbull is releasing a number of demo films in the future, each a 1/2 hour short from a particular genre. If you're living in an area where you can see this, go do it. I'm thinking of road-tripping to Dallas just to do so. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Mar 1984 22:16 EST (Mon) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" Subject: Dr. Who I recall reading in a previous issue sometime ago that there exists a Dr. Who archive on some net site, accessable through anonymous ftp. Anyone happen to know where it is, if it still exists? ------------------------------ Date: 17 Feb 84 20:20:52-PST (Fri) From: decvax!dartvax!mlf @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Dr. Who - Good-bye Tardis How can they get rid of the police box? The new generation of kids may not recognize the thing as a call box, but then I imagine that young American viewers of a few years back did either, and they haven't complained. What with the Doctor becoming so painfully serious and solemn these days, a TARDIS shaped like an outdated, incongruous artifact is a badly needed touch of whimsy. Yes, they can take away the sonic screwdriver, they can unravel the scarf, but by God they should not trash the call box. After all, what is sacred, anyway? ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 1984 11:15:56-EST From: Bob.Walker at CMU-EE-FARADAY Subject: Dalek invasion of Pittsburgh Well, we're finally getting *some* Dr. Who in Pittsburgh. This Saturday night (actually early Sunday morning), WPGH-53 will air the two Dr. Who films: 2:00am "Dr. Who and the Daleks" 1965 with Peter Cushing as Dr. Who Based on Terry Nation's story "The Daleks", from William Hartnell's (the first Doctor's) first season 3:30am "The Daleks: Invasion Earth 2150 AD" 1966 with Peter Cushing as Dr. Who Based on Terry Nation's story "The Dalek Invasion of Earth", from William Hartnell's second season "In these films the Doctor is called Doctor Who. He is not a Time Lord but a scientist from Earth who has invented a TARDIS. He has two granddaughters, and Susan is only 9 years old..." Info from "The Doctor Who Programme Guide", by Jean-Marc Lofficier, Target Books, 1981. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Mar 1984 20:46:09 PST Subject: The Tomorrow People From: Alan R. Katz I have been watching this REALLY STRANGE program on cable (Nickleodean(sp?)) called "The Tomorrow People." It seems to have been done on a tiny budget (less than Dr. Who even) but seems to be pretty well done (in a warped way). Does anyone know the premise of this show? (It is from BBC, about 1974, I think). In short: The heroes are kids (its a kids show) who have special powers of some sort. They can teleport (sometimes they need some kind of gadget, sometimes they don't). They have some sort of self aware computer (or something, its not clear its really a computer). Alot (but not all) of the science seems pretty much right, it looks like they paid attention to what their science adviser said. All sorts of really strange things happen, but basically good guys vs. bad guys trying to take over the Earth in one way or another. Alan ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 31-Mar SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #52 *** EOOH *** Date: 31 Mar 84 1208-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #52 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 31 Mar 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 52 Today's Topics: Books - Brunner & Hubbard & Lem & Silverberg & Stapledon & The Philadelphia Experiment, Films - High Speed Film (3 msgs), Television - The Tommorrow People ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Mar 84 16:11:42-PST (Thu) From: harpo!ulysses!burl!clyde!watmath!utzoo!dciem!ntt @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: [mutilation] of THE SHOCKWAVE RIDER It would be useful if publishers' names and edition dates were mentioned. In Canada we tend to see a mixture of US and British editions. Mark Brader ------------------------------ Date: Tue 27 Mar 84 12:16:42-PST From: Sam Hahn Subject: Hubbard Am I too obtuse to notice, or does the populace not recall that L. Ron Hubbard is the main man behind the dianetics and scientology crock? This where one signs on with the religion for 5 billion years if one can get "cleared", ie brainsucked, the ideal heaven for scientologists. ------------------------------ Date: Sun 25 Mar 84 21:20:03-EST From: Joseph A. Frisbie Subject: Lem and Stapledon. The only book of Lem's that is as much fun as the Cyberiad is Star Diaries. It follows the less preachy of Ijon Tichy's adventures. I find two of his novels interesting, but the others rather turgid. They are The Futurological Congress, (available in paperback from Bard [Avon's international/translation division]) which is about a convention goer who is present during a terrorist attack. The terrorists use pharmaceutical weapons, and the rest of the story involves trying to figure out what is real and what isn't. Chain of Chance is a detective story with an interesting twist (that can't be divulged). The idea is similar to The Investigation, but the plot works much better. It is, or was published in paperback by Jove books. Joe ------------------------------ From: allegra!scgvaxd!4ccvax!LESLIE@Berkeley Date: Wed, 28 Mar 84 00:46:18 est Subject: More on Silverbob Herein find a second plug for Dying Inside -- it is one of the most sensitive and balanced books about telepaths I have ever seen. By balanced, I mean nicely between the two usual extremes: i) Telepathy is really great stuff, and those who have it tend to be better humans in almost all ways than non-telepaths ii) Telepathy is terrible stuff, and those who have it are terrible-to-insane from having to confront the raw sewage that is man's thought. Also find a VERY ENTHUSIASTIC plug for Book of Skulls, also mentioned earlier in passing. The four protagonists are well characterized, and their mutual opinions and thought styles give the book a feeling of well-crafted counterpoint (the book is written all in first-person narratives which switch from the four protagonists). The plot is tautly crafted, and although I want to avoid from spoiling it, I will note that this is an excellent case of a book where the fantastic or strange is kept so much in check that for most, if not all of the book (no spoiler...) one has no more confirmation of strangeness going on than a weird feeling on the back of the neck. I also recently read a reissue of Philip K. Dick's The Unteleported Man. It billed itself as the original version, minus 3 pps lost of the manuscript (the first publication supposedly was cut, and with a different ending). If anyone has read both versions, please comment on the contrast. I enjoyed the version I read, but I must admit those 3 pps were close enough to the end of the book so that they added greatly to the confusion one generally finds at the end of Dick's novels. Dar icus, Dar nushi, Dar sud Leslie ------------------------------ Date: Sun 25 Mar 84 21:20:03-EST From: Joseph A. Frisbie Subject: Lem and Stapledon. Olaf Stapledon is particularly interesting historically. He wrote in England in the thirties and forties while the pulps were being published in America. He could be called a father of science fiction. His works are much more detailed, more scientifically plausible, and less moralistic than Wells. Sirius is about who is as intelligent as a human and grows up as a member of the family. Odd John is about a super-human, John, who is a new species of mankind -- homo superior. He contacts other extra-normals and founds a colony. Last and First Men is a history of the entire human race from first man (us) to seventeeth man. Odd John and Sirius are together in one volume from Dover as are Last and First Men and Star Maker. This is truly first class stuff. The only difficulty one might have is that they are written using a classic English style (ala James) as so the narrator relates the story. Joe ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Mar 84 17:45 MST From: "Jerry Crow"@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: The Philadelphia Experiment In SFL, V9-21, Will Martin talks about a book called "The Philadelphia Experiment". I haven't read this book, but the description sounds so much like another book that I am prompted to ask if anyone else noted the similarity. <<< Warning: potential spoiler .... >>> I refer to "Thin Air", by George Simpson and Neal Burger (Dell, 1978). The central character of TA is one Nick Hammond, an investigator for the intelligence arm of the Navy. The book opens with a past love of his asking asking to see him. They meet, and the subject turns out to be her husband. He's having nightmares about being on a boat which disappears. He has distinct memories of being at the Philadelphia Navy Yard during his naval service, but his official naval record does not reflect that. As a favor to his old love, Hammond agrees to check naval records. The book unfolds from there as Hammond uncovers a WWII research project to make things, particularly ships, invisible. As things get more complex, he ends up visiting a former member of the project, a stereotyped brilliant scientist who now lives as a hermit in the hills of New Mexico in order to escape from society, etc. Turns out the project was a success, but it drove the participants insane. And, more importantly, the project resulted in the teleportation of the ship, a fact which was regarded by most of the investigators -- but not all as noted below -- as an undesirable side effect. The project, according to the official records, was cancelled. And the mess was covered up, as Hammond discovers. Ah, but one particularly devious principal in the investigation realizes that teleportation is an interesting goal in its own right, with potential beyond invisibility. Hmmm..... So to the present and the project has been picked up by the, again, stereotyped "Monolithic Mega Corporation", cloaked in secrecy, and is being used for private gain and criminal activity, etc. It is devoted entirely to teleportation. The book talks about Einstein, the Unified Field Theory, and the plot has the "Thin Air" project being led, technically, by an Emil Kurtnauer who allegedly continued down the path opened by the UFT. I found this particular book to be a fairly good light read. The similarities are so striking that there must be some connection between the two. The plot of TA is considerably more detailed than I have described here, but the general flow is essentially identical to tPE. BTW: I see that tPE is due out as a movie this fall. Anyone know anything more about these two books and/or a potential relationship between them? /Jerry JCrow%PCO-MULTICS at CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 84 11:02:54 PST (Tuesday) From: LFeinberg.es@PARC-GW.ARPA Subject: Re: high spped film "They said that the more you increase the number of frames per second the more reaction and emotion the audience feels." Begin Flame Here. What kind of ridiculous nonsense is this? When will people realize that any kind of technical resource will not get you reaction and emotion from anyone? These are simply not replacements for high quality scripting, acting, and directing. Witness the emotional connections that come the great silent films -- with less frames per second and terrible film. Black-and-white, too. Even if you are just talking about sheer visual impact, it is not the technical quality of the photographic process which makes the difference. Again, look at the silents to see this.... The the creation of the robot in Fritz Lang's Metropolis, the carriage bumping down the steps in Sergei Eisenstein's Potempkin, the stirring march of the French army at the end of Abel Glance's "Napoleon". Your gimmicks may be fine, and Lucas and Speilberg may be the right sort to use them. But don't confuse that with great film-making. The great film-makers need a lot less to get their "reaction and emotion". End Flame Here. Lawrence ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Mar 84 11:37 EST From: "James J. Lippard" Subject: high-speed film I read somewhere that it was Douglas Trumbull who has been experimenting with high-speed film. I also seem to recall that he was putting money into some special theaters with extra-wide screens to show movies made with such techniques. ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 28 March 1984, 13:59-PST From: Michael Wahrman Subject: Showscan and Brock/Trumbull Cc: mike at RAND-UNIX The Showscan process was originally developed by Doug Trumbull as part of his Future General partnership with Paramount Pictures. The process was developed both as a film format (ie, major motion pictures) and as an amusement park format (as in Disneyland and its natural descendants, the pizza parlour). Trumbull's deal with Paramount included development of the technology and of at least one motion picture. One test film was produced. Called "Night of the Dreams" it was the lamest of the three script ideas submitted to Paramount, it was the one Paramount chose, of course, it lasts 15 minutes, is a weak Twilight-zone-like episode and it proves the technology very well. You may not want to do a feature film with this format but you are convinced that it makes an impact an order of magnitude greater than 70mm, Imax, Omnimax, etc. As with any new idea Paramount develops, they ultimately chose to choose nothing and do nothing and sit on it a while and then think about it and then do nothing. So it was with Showscan and with the motion picture that was developed called Brainstorm. So Trumbull went elsewhere to try and finance Showscan, ultimately ending up with the non-Showscan feature that became Brainstorm, financed by MGM. Two asides. First, even though Brainstorm didnt use the Showscan process it was the first effects feature to use actual 70mm footage for the effects instead of 35mm footage blown up to 70mm. Lucasfilm, for example, shoots their effects in a widescreen format, Vistavision, which is 8-perf 35 mm and then transfer it down to 4-perf 35mm for printing with live action which was shot in Panavision. The final print is then blown up to 70mm widescreen for release. Brainstorm, on the other hand, kept the effects footage at 70mm, thus avoiding one entire generation loss of resolution plus the effects of printing down and then printing back up again, a procedure that always results in loss of detail and clarity and color. This explains why some of the sequences in Brainstorm have the extroardinary clarity that they do. This may not help the movie much (reviews were mixed, as they say) but I was pleased. As an effects guy who has always worked in 35mm and then transferred to (blech) video, I've always wanted to see 70mm, really 70mm, and not the 35mm, transferred twice, and then blown up to 70mm, that we are used to seeing. I thought it looked great. The movie certainly answered the often asked question: "Is there special effects after death?" Second, Showscan is a process that involves more than the often remarked-upon 60 fps. It also includes a digital sound system as well as special speaker delivery. My suspicion is that any good sound system would do here but I think that Trumbull's point is that it is necessary to have that sound system, the usual crummy movie sound wont do. Also, because the film moves so much faster in Showscan, they can pump more light energy through it, getting a picture twice as bright on a specially shaped screen. This also enhances the quality of the imagery. After many years of showing Showscan to potential investors, Trumbull finally signed a deal with a Pizza Parlour Entrepreneur named Brock. The idea was to make 100's of pizza parlours nationwide, each equipped with a Showscan theatre. Trumbull was commissioned to make a few short films. The first was a dunebuggy, surfnut 20min film that is supposed to be "just awful". The second is a film called "New Magic" which had at least one good magician that I know of, Ricky Jay, of LA, as advisor. I haven't seen that film either, but reviews are mixed, as they say. The third film was to be a graphics effects film and... it's about time! If there is one thing that Trumbull does well it is graphics: see for reference the slitscan scenes in 2001, the final sequences of Close Encounters and the graphics multiplaning stars in the Showscan demo film. The third test film never got made, so far as I have heard. The final word is that they (Trumbull) are waiting on the investor (Brock) to see if they can get financing for the Pizza Parlour upgrade. They are testing the films in Dallas and Washington, DC now. If the financing comes through then Trumbull will get to make 7 short films in a hurry. That could be very exciting because at least one of them could be an abstract imagery film. They hope to know whether they can go ahead very soon, and I'll let Sf-lovers know if they get the goahead. Michael Wahrman ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Mar 84 17:15:00 CDT From: Mike Caplinger Subject: Re: The Tomorrow People Well, I have cable and can't help watching it sometimes, so I catch "The Tomorrow People" fairly often. The premise is basically this: The Galaxy is populated by hundreds of races; some are telepathic, some are not. The telepaths are always mutations from a non-telepathic base species. These are developing on Earth, where they are called (for no readily descernable reason) "Tomorrow People." The Galactic Federation goes around finding these people and contacting them; they become ambassadors for the planet, which is shielded from outside contact until the telepaths become dominant. It turns out that the telepaths are mentally incapable of violence, so they're safe to let out into Galactic society. The telepaths also have limited abilities for TK, remote viewing, and teleportation, called "jaunting" (cf Bester's STARS MY DESTINATION). Jaunting range is much enhanced (to interstellar distances, even) by machine amplification. The show itself follows the adventures of a group of teenagers/young adults who have been given a sentient biological computer by the Galactic Federation. They keep the Earth safe from invasion by hostile non-telepathic ETs, are on the run from Earth governments, who want to use their power for war, etc. Occasionally they go to other planets to help out pockets of Tomorrow People there. All in all, it's not a bad show. The special effects are mediocre video stuff, and the plots range from pretty intelligent to pretty bad. But there's a fair amount of thought in the background civilizations and the premise in general. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 31-Mar SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #53 *** EOOH *** Date: 31 Mar 84 1230-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #53 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 31 Mar 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 53 Today's Topics: Books - Brin & Kornbluth & Lem & Varley & Wolfe (2 msgs), Films - Russian Films & 2010 & Roadside Picnic ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 Mar 84 20:23:30-PST (Tue) From: decvax!mcnc!duke!ucf-cs!giles @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: The Practice Effect **teensie spoile - (nf) +-------------------- | (P.S. After being so negative, I can't wait for "Gorilla" -- | The quality of books in the sequence "Practice Effect", | "Sundiver", "Startide Rising" is analogous to the gamma | function!) +-------------------- >> Hmm... maybe there IS sometime to the "Practice Effect" ;-} No, he specifically mentioned that the Practice Effect did not work on animate matter. Nice try.... P.S. He has an science article in the May 1984 *Analog*, an issue that will readers of this net will not so forget... (see my next article). ave discordia going bump in the night ... bruce giles decvax!ucf-cs!giles university of central florida giles.ucf-cs@Rand-Relay orlando, florida 32816 ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 84 23:33:34-PST (Wed) From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!floyd!cmcl2!lanl-a!unm From: -cvax!janney @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Title Request Sorry about posting this, but I don't trust sending mail to funny-looking addresses... The story about the reporter Flannery on the planet Frostbite is "Make Mine Mars", by Cyril Kornbluth. To find it, you will probably have to go to a library or used book store and look for collections of his stories. It's worth the trouble, though, if only for the song at the beginning: X is for the ecstasy she gave me, S is for her scales of ivoree ... Put it all together, it spells XS????? (I don't remember all of it) Jim Janney {parsec,ucbvax,gatech}!unmvax!unm-cvax!janney {purdue,lbl-csam,cmcl2,csu-cs}!lanl-a!unm-cvax!janney ------------------------------ From: allegra!scgvaxd!4ccvax!LESLIE@Berkeley Date: Fri, 30 Mar 84 03:19:51 est Subject: In defense of S. Lem Some of you who have not been turned of of Lem by way of Solaris may wish to really give him a chance. I have just recently become interested in Lem, and I have found him to have an extremely nice turn of phrase and an apparent love for words, which shines through even when hindered by translation. Following, a short run-down of some Lem goodies: The Cyberiad: a set of fables about a mechanized culture. I read the Avon edition (now out of print, spottily available in used book stores) and the translation seems excellent (since I don't know how to read the original, this means the word flow is beautiful) Tales of Pirx the Pilot: amusing shorts tracing cadet Pirx's life as a pilot. There is a sequel to this but I haven't read it. Solaris: Our red-letter novel. I liked it, but the accusations leveled about its obscurity and mysticism are pretty accurate. The imagery and ideas are definitely weird, but it is still worth reading. Return from the Stars: a novel about Future Shock. I think the edition I read suffered in translation -- either that or the prose can get pretty stultifying. Also, I hear "A Perfect Vaccum" is a must-buy. However, the HBJ paper I have seen is a bit high priced for my current student-impoverished budget. A.P.V. is a bunch of book reviews of nonexistent books. Leslie All hail the Lords of Asgard (these Gods brought to you through the intervention of MMILLER) ------------------------------ Date: 28 March 1984 1945-pst From: Jerry Bakin Subject: "Press Enter []" by John Varley The latest "Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine" (May '84) has a short story by John Varley called "Press Enter[]" This is a very reasonable account of a software hacker (who gives himself the name Kluge) who over a 30 year period has erased himself from the world. Varley admits not anyone can do this, this hacker was in the business since the fifties, and installed most of the systems involved. (Setting up Trojan Horses, or acquiring knowledge of their weaknesses.) The story is not about Kluge however, it is about Kluge's neighbor and a Vietnamese woman from CALTECH. Kluge has committed suicide, and left everything to the neighbor. The suicide note is written as a computer program, and explains that the fifty gallon drum of drugs in the bedroom was for his personal use, not for retail. LAPD isn't impressed, and fearing murder and not suicide, retains the woman to make what she can out of his system. The dialogue is handled well, with the exception that the woman obviously had a bad encounter with the MIT hackers dictionary. Varley uses this as a device to impress the reader with how much the woman must know about computers, but that's alright, because the jargon is used in the proper places, and usually is a method the woman uses to snow the cops or FBI. Its a fairly well written story, not hard-sf, but plausible, and makes proper use of the adjective brain-damaged. My one concern is with the jargon: I haven't wandered around CALTECH much, do techies really use 95% of the hackers dictionary in every breadth? For that matter do the people at MIT? Jerry. P.S. The intro mentions that Millenium will soon be a major motion picture. Does anyone know anything more about this? Will Robert Redford be the FAA investigator? Who will play Louise? BC? ------------------------------ Date: 24 Feb 84 0:11:56-PST (Fri) From: decvax!decwrl!lipman @ Ucb-Vax From: akov68::boyajian Subject: Wolfe Stuffe dartvax!karl: THE WOLFE ARCHIPELAGO is a collection from Zeising Brothers (the publishers of CASTLE OF THE OTTER). The contents are: "The Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories", "The Death of Doctor Island", and "The Doctor of Death Island". Also included, embedded in the introduction, is a new short-short story, "Death of the Island Doctor". Since the three novellas are all (I believe) con- tained in the Pocket Books collection, THE ISLAND OF DOCTOR DEATH AND OTHER STORIES AND OTHER STORIES [*sic*], this is really more of a "collector's" book than anything else. Since the SF Book Club did an edition of OTTER, I suspect that they will do one of ARCHIPELAGO, too. You might want to know, though, that N.E.S.F.A. (The New England S. F. Association -- the putters on of Boskone) has published another Wolfe collection commemorating Wolfe's guest-of-honorship at this year's Boskone. It's called PLAN[e]T ENGINERING (a joke; Wolfe used to edit a trade journal called PLANT ENGINEERING) and is a collection of old (some obscure) and new material. Since your message was apparently cut off (at least on my end), I can't answer any other questions you might have had. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard) UUCP: (decvax!decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian) ARPA: (decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian@Shasta) ------------------------------ Date: 1 Mar 84 23:43:13-PST (Thu) From: ucbcad!kalash @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Islands beyond Doctors and Deaths. - (nf) > I have seen in the latest Books in Print that Gene Wolfe has > yet another new ( ? ) book out, The Wolfe Archipelago. Does anyone > happen to know what is in it? To name a few of the choices, old > short stories, new short stories, a novel, more background on > Urth... The "Wolfe Archipelago" is a collection of three short stories: "The Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories" "The Death of Doctor Island" "The Doctor of Death Island" as an added bonus, if you read the intro, you will find another story: "Death of the Island Doctor" > Also, I noticed in a short story index today that Wolfe has had > numerous stories published in anthologies edited by someone named > R. Elwood. ( E.g., Dystopian Visions, Showcase, Tomorrow's > Alternatives, and with Virginia Kidd, Saving World. [or maybe > Saving Word?] ) Who is R. Elwood? R. Elwood is Roger Elwood, who was producing anthologies seemingly every week during the early and middle 70's. I haven't heard much from him recently, but that might not mean anything... Joe Kalash kalash@berkeley ucbvax!kalash ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 28 March 1984, 12:59-PST From: Michael Wahrman Subject: Weighing Russian Films, a method for criticism I have a theory that the Russian film community evaluates cinema in terms of Kilograms. One Russian intellectual might meet another on the street and ask: "Say, comrade, have you seen that new Tarkovsky film? How much does it weigh?" His friend says: "Yes, Tarkovsky is a true friend of socialism. His film must weigh 500 kilos at least! Maybe more! It runs for over five hours!!" "Heavy!!" says the first intellectual, "it must be a very good film indeed!" Indeed it must be a very good film if it weighs that much. I saw 'Solaris' when it premiered in L.A. many years ago, before a nationwide release. It was a very heavy film. I didnt see the puny 2.5 hour nothing-ness that some people saw in the nationwide release. And I didnt see the lightweight trivial superficial 3.5 hour trifle that showed around LA for a while after the premier. NO! I saw the original Tarkovsky masterpiece, a full 4.5 hours of gravity-loving cinema. Boring, minor, simple. A film that is the russian equivalent of a TV drama, substituting gross film footage for idea as in America we might substitute another car chase for idea. Some people would say that ponderous footage that should have been left on the cutting room floor is better than the American fetish for mindless action, and this may be true, but I think that the car chase has at least the advantage of finishing sooner. In the case of Solaris, I think it should have been cut into a slow moving 90 minute foreign film. One of the hardest things for a film maker to do is to get out footage that doesn't contribute to the story. I believe that this is true for French films as much as American films, Japanese films, British films, etc. I believe that it is true for filmmaking in general. But the russians, apparently, in cinema as in fiction, like their entertainment bulky. ------------------------------ Date: 28 March 1984 1913-pst From: Jerry Bakin Subject: 2010 and Soviet Dissidents The LA times for 27 April had an article pointing out that the last names of the seven cosmonauts in 2010 correspond to well known Soviet dissidents. The interest arises since the magazine Tekhnika-Molodyozhi (Technology Youth) is serializing the novel, and the names have slipped past the Soviet Censors. The article by Robert Gillette can be found in Part I, page 7 but I will paraphrase: Jerry. MOSCOW -- Soviet dissidents, who rarely find much to laugh about are enjoying a chuckle these days over what they presume to be a subtle practical joke played on government censors by Arthur C. Clarke. The apparent joke -- " a small but elegant Trojan horse," as one dissident describes it -- is contained in 2010: Odyssey Two. Russians are among the world's most avid science fiction fans. With this in mind, a popular Soviet Science magazine began serializing the sequel, and apparently plans to continue publishing a condensed Russian-language version for several months. What astute Soviet Readers find so amusing, and what censors have apparently overlooked is not the book's daring suggestion of US-Soviet cooperation, but the particular names Clarke has given to the Soviet cosmonauts on the expedition. The last names of the cosmonauts correspond to those of well-known living Soviet dissidents. six of the seven are currently serving sentences in labor camps or internal exile for their human-rights activities. Under strict censorship regulations, they are rarely mentioned in the state controlled Soviet press, and then only as objects of official vilification. The namesakes appear to be: Viktor Brailovsky, a computer scientist and a leading Jewish activist. Ivan Kovalev, an engineer and a founder of the Helsinki Group. Anatoly Marchenko, a 46 year old laborer who has served 18 years in the camps for political offenses. Yuri Orlov, Physicist, Jewish activist and Helsinki Group founder. Mykola Rudenko, Helsinki Group founder. Gleb Rakunin, a Russian Orthodox Priest. Andrei Sakharov, physicist and Nobel Laureate. In a special introduction to the Soviet version, Clarke fondly recalls his friendship with Soviet Cosmonaut Alexi Leonov and expresses his hope his book will encourage "friendship among peoples," a stock Soviet phrase. However, in the Western edition, the book is dedicated to Leonov and dissident physicist Andrei D. Sakharov -- "scientist, Nobel Laureate, humanist." While the names of the cosmonauts may be concidence, dissident Muscvites are skeptical. Several of the names like Brailovsky and Yakunin are far from common. In any case, as one of Clarke's characters obsereves, "Once is an accident, twice is a coincidence, three times is a conspiracy." All of which, to some puzzled readers, makes seven very hard to explain. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 84 8:58:29-PST (Tue) From: decvax!dartvax!davidk @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Movie query: Stalker, Solaris - (nf) "Roadside Picnic" is NOT about aliens picnicing on Earth, it is about the effects of The Zone on the inhabitants of the area. One character, a scientist, likens the Zone to an alien picnic area. What would the remains of a human picnic site look like to a less advanced race than ours? It is a superb book, even though the translation from Russian leaves something to be desired at times. David C. Kovar USNET: {linus|decvax|cornell}!dartvax!davidk ARPA: davidk%dartmouth@csnet-relay CSNET: davidk@dartmouth U.S. Snail HB 3140 Dartmouth College Hanover NH 03755 "The difficult we did yesterday, the impossible we are doing now." ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 2-Apr SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #54 *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Apr 84 1324-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #54 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 2 Apr 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 54 Today's Topics: Books - Chalker/Foster Book Reviews, Films - Star Trek (2 msgs) & Star Wars (6 msgs), Miscellaneous - SF Cons List & Parsecs & FTL (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 26 Mar 84 16:46:29-PST (Mon) From: decvax!ittvax!wxlvax!dann @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Chalker/Foster review and spoilers Well, I've done it again, scooped up a couple of SF paperbacks without checking the back page for (Part II of the Foo the Barbarian Saga will be published sometime in 1995). It seems they've stopped noting the fact that the book is part of a series on the cover. It seems that most readers have probably caught onto the fact that most N-part series are hastily written piles of dragon spew with no valid reason for existence including the possession of entertainment value. The books I'm referring to are Spell Singer (Alan Dean Foster) whose sequel is Hour of the Gate, and The River of the Dancing Gods by Jack Chalker. Well I should have been forewarned, both of these authors are hacks from way back but trusting in strange and none too reliable gods, I bought them anyways. Spell Singer was a mostly harmless, slightly too cute, alternate universe story about a drugged out college student who gets goniffed into a magic using Universe in order to save it from some unknown but terrible threat. It turns out that the kid's a natural (naturally) with a talent for invoking spells through music. (Does this sound familiar or does this sound familiar?). Well, I'd be happier if the kid had to sweat some for his magic powers, and the plot is sort of threadbare, but handled in the right way this could work. Unfortunately, A. Dean Foster ain't got no style, and not a heck of a lot of creativity either. Part 1 of Spell Singer peters out (suddenly and without much happening) and then the Hour of the Gate turns *really* bad. We're talking cliches here, we're talking the cavalry coming over the hill, we're talking the final battle scene with the Wizard, the Dark Forces, the secret weapon which is just after all nothing so very terrible, we're talking the hero saving the day in a last minute display of technicolor magic virtuosity, we're talking extremely dull predictable ending. Foo. Then I ran across Chalker's River of the Dancing Gods. I once had hope for Chalker. The Well World was creative and original, marred only by a writing style second only to Piers Anthony in the lack of style and imagery and the possession of characters who left splinters on your brains (Is this where we got Splinter of the Mind's Eye?). So let's see if Chalker has improved....He has not. Dancing Gods reads like the sketch of a work, the plot is there, the characters are there, they move to the conclusion of the book in an undeviating line, and it's all shallow as hell. If Chalker spent more than two months writing this opus, I'd be shocked. And what's really bad is that Chalker waits till the last line with his little joke, which is that he intends to inflict more of this Finagle-cursed dreck on the unwitting populace. So consider yourself warned. This stuff is the science fiction equivalent of Top 40 music. It's got as much substance to it as Coca Cola. Avoid it. dann ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27-MAR-1984 23:57 EST From: Ronald A. Jarrell Subject: Star Trek III - More hints From Enterprise Incidents: April 1984 Used without permission. (deleted) Enterprise Incidents is published by New Media Publishing Inc at monthly intervals.] ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 84 22:01:05 EST From: Marla Subject: Star Trek on videotape Actually, this could turn out to be an interesting venture, if the following could happen: First, get 20 or 40 interested people to form a group. At 50 cents or 1 dollar each, they could see the entire uncut series for $40/$80 (I'm talking having them all gather in one place to view it, or circulating the tape between VCR owners). Second, if it is possible to select which episode you would like to get next, then, by having 2 or 3 people subscribe for a large group, you could see the whole series in much less than 6 years. Of course, I suppose Paramount would undertake elaborate protection schemes for the tapes/disks, otherwise the underground pirated version of the episodes would quickly put them out of business.... Marla [Selinger@Ru-Blue] ------------------------------ Date: 26 Mar 84 5:31:39-PST (Mon) From: harpo!ulysses!burl!clyde!akgua!edb @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Death Star and Endor [] I have begun to wonder why, if the new death star was "fully operational", did it need a ground-based shield at all? Isn't that rather unusual? Emily Brooks ...ihnp4!akgua!edb ------------------------------ Date: 27 Feb 84 5:31:46-PST (Mon) From: decvax!dartvax!kenv @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Edited Star Wars?? After watching Star Wars last night on T.V., I got to wondering if there was any editing.... I think I spotted two places but I'm not quite sure.... 1) In the Rebel base, doesn't Luke meet Biggs before they get to the Death Star? 2) Wasn't Princess Leia's awarding a medal to Chewie after the Death Star was blown up ommitted? Maybe my memory is faulty, but I seem to remember seeing both of those scenes at the theater. Can anyone tell me if I am hallucinating or not??? Ken Varnum (..decvax!dartvax!kenv) ------------------------------ Date: 28 Feb 84 9:29:25-PST (Tue) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!akgua!psuvax!starner @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Edited Star Wars?? I was unable to discover anything that was different in the TV Version. Chewie did not get a medal and Luke didn't meet Biggs (although I think both of these were done in the novel and Luke did meet Biggs in the National Public Radio adaption). Mark L. Starner Pennsylvania State University {allegra, burdvax, akgua, ihnp4}!psuvax!starner ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 84 22:03:38-PST (Tue) From: ihnp4!inuxc!iuvax!notes @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Death Star and Endor re: "Why did the 'fully operational' Death Star need a ground-based shield?" All part of the ruse. It was an Empire double-agent who sold the secret code to the rebels, as well as the disinformation that the Death Star would not be operational when they wanted to attack. As Admiral Ackbar (?) said, "It's a trap!" -- Allan Pratt ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 84 13:45:02-PST (Tue) From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!marla @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Star Wars Trivia Answers - Apology My apologies for not posting the answers to the Star Wars trivia quiz I promised. Shortly after I posted the origional quiz, facilities decided to move our group. We finally got phones and terminals so now I can post the answers. Unfortunately, I left them at home today, so I will have to bring them in tomorrow. Marla S. Baer ssc-vax!marla ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 84 14:28:58-PST (Tue) From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!floyd!cmcl2!lanl-a!unm From: -cvax!nmtvax!tim @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Death Star and Endor If the Death Stars was not protected by the shield the good guys would have known it was operational. The Emperor wanted to trap them, and keeping the shield up was jut another little detail to make sure they were fooled. Besides, they didn't seem in a hurry to go anywhere, why go off chasing the rebels when you can just sit and wait for them to show up, and the shield was no more than a pain in the neck. It didn't prevent the Death Star from operating normally. Tim ------------------------------ Date: 14 Feb 84 7:30:09-PST (Tue) To: SF-Lovers @ Rutgers From: harpo!seismo!rochester!rocksvax!sunybcs!hobbit @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Ewok Joke Q: How did Ewoks get their names? A: It's the sound they make when they fall out of trees. ^^^^^^^^ E ()()()()() E ()()()()() E #### E #### E #### E #### \\wok// -The Parker Hobbit a.k.a. Thomas R. Pellitieri UUCP: {allegra, seismo}!rochester!rocksvax!sunybcs!hobbit decvax!watmath!sunybcs!hobbit ARPA & CSNET: hobbit.buffalo@rand-relay Physical: Department of Computer Science 226 Bell Hall SUNY Center at Buffalo Amherst, NY 14226 ------------------------------ Date: 26 Mar 1984 2049-PST From: Zellich@OFFICE-3.ARPA (Rich Zellich) Subject: SF Cons list updated (note change of host for file) SRI-NIC file CONS.TXT has been updated and is now ready for FTP. SRI-NIC supports the net-standard "ANONYMOUS" Login within FTP, using any password. CONS.TXT is currently 1131 lines (or 54,765 characters). Please try to limit your FTP jobs to before 0600-CDT and after 1600-CDT if possible, as the system is usually heavily loaded during the day. Enjoy, Rich [Note that the file has been moved from OFFICE-3 to SRI-NIC; future messages about list-address changes, etc., directed to me should be sent to ZELLICH@SRI-NIC instead of ZELLICH@OFFICE-3.] ------------------------------ Date: 17 Feb 84 12:42:08-PST (Fri) From: decvax!mcnc!unc!rentsch @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Re: 'Parsec' as a unit of time - (nf) In times when space warp travel is common, getting into and out of warp quickly might make a HUGE difference in terms of how long the trip takes, because the trip is much shorter. Seen in this light, saying that something was done in "under 17 parsecs" makes a lot of sense, no? Tim ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 1984 09:42:36-EST From: Donald.Schmitz at CMU-RI-ARM Subject: Re:Re:FTL Re the post by Michael Cooley in which he gives the example of two photons approaching each other and claims the distance between them shrinks at speed 2c. This seems like an example used to explain relativity that I've read somewhere before, and the results are not exactly what are expected, as what happens depends on the point of view. If viewed from a coordinate system attached to either photon, the other appears to be approaching at a speed just under c. If viewed from a coordinate system attached to say the point of collision of the two photons, the distance between the two is shrinking at speed 2c, however this does not imply that any physical object or information is traveling at speed greater than c. If I've gotten any of the details wrong here (I'm working completely from memory and can remember the text) please let me know. Also, regarding the question of one telepath traveling at relativistic speeds compared to the other, Heinlein wrote a story based on just such a premise many years back (one of his juvenile books I read in about 8th grade), with exactly what was described happening. The telepaths, taken along on the first star trip for communication, had to concentrate on one idea for hours so that their earth bound receptors could catch what they were sending, and had to use hypnosis to pay attention to the return transmission long enough to understand it (although transmission time was instantaneous). Don ------------------------------ Date: 17 Feb 84 2:43:08-PST (Fri) From: sun!qubix!steven @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Sure we can! >> If we can discuss the likes of Deryni, Darkover, Terry Brooks, >> and Tolkien in SF-Lovers, we can damned well discuss speculative >> physics relating to space travel. I should point out that there is one difference between "speculative physics relating to space travel", and "Deryni, Darkover, Terry Brooks, and Tolkien". And that is this: In all cases, the books that you have mentioned are internally self-consistant (i.e. there is no place where you can say "This part of the novel disagrees with this part"). That is not true with "FTL" drives. What most authors misunderstand about Einstein's theory of relativity is that it is not the ACT of moving through space that "makes time go slower", but rather that space and time are two components of the same thing. "Going through Hyperspace" would do absolutely nothing, because the very ACT of ARRIVING at a location before light would (given any frame of refrence), is the very ACT of going backwards through time. Thus, though is is possible for "Psychism" to exist, even "magic" (as long as it is in another universe), FTL cannot. This fact will not go away. Period. You might as well write 1000 novels based on Perpetual Motion machines, and have the same degree of truth in them as Star Wars, Star Trek, etc, etc, etc. Steven Maurer ------------------------------ Date: 26 Mar 84 6:39:07-PST (Mon) From: decvax!dartvax!karl @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Sure we can! Although you may be correct in that faster than light travel is not possible, you seem to be rather fanatically set against any other possibility. Einstein would probably admit that Special Relativity is not the be-all and end-all of the universe. And if you think all the vagaries, quirks, and bizarre happenstances of time have been ironed out, read Timescape, by Gregory Benford. {decvax,cornell}!dartvax!karl karl@dartmouth ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 3-Apr SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #55 *** EOOH *** Date: 3 Apr 84 1314-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #55 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 3 Apr 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 55 Today's Topics: Books - Brin (2 msgs) & Hubbard (2 msgs) & Author Request & Story request & Varley (2 msgs), Films - High Speed Film (4 msgs), Miscellaneous - FTL & Omni & Dr. Manfred Clynes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 30 Mar 84 7:20:28-PST (Fri) From: ihnp4!ihuxj!gek @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Practice Effect Well, I liked it! I read page 1 last night, and page-the-last about three hours later. It's not headed for the Pulitzer, but it's good reading (and I don't know about you, but that's what I'm here for). Certainly better than the Alan Dean Foster drivel I was mainlining (just to get my fix until something good came along, you understand). Counteracting the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is really no more unbelievable than Murphy's hyper-extension of the same law...and Brin was realistic to the extent of giving his protagonist a concussion after being bopped on the head.. Has anyone read Niven's new book, The Integral Tree? Is it worth reading? glenn kapetansky ------------------------------ Date: 2 Apr 1984 1101 PST From: John McCluskey Subject: The Practice Effect I just finished reading "The Practice Effect" this weekend. It is not bad, but I nearly split a gut laughing when the author introduces, "The plain of Darb" (snicker), "the Ruddick River" (snort), "Count R'krett" (giggle), and best of all, "Count Feif-dei" (Har har har har har har) Strangely, I can't explain why I found this funny.... ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 1 Apr 1984 12:52:52-PST From: binder%dosadi.DEC@purdue-merlin.ARPA (Do not adjust your From: set...) To: sfnet%decwrl.ARPA@purdue-merlin.ARPA Subject: L. Ron Hubbard Yes, the L. Ron Hubbard of "Battlefield Earth" is the same *deleted* who started dianetics and scientology. Before he turned into a *deleted* he was a fairly well known SF author, even roomed with Heinlein for a while. The L. stands for Lafayette. If you will take a close look at Hubbard's picture and compare it with Heinlein's description of Lazarus Long, you will see a remarkable similarity... Hubbard was quoted, once, long before he started the scientology thing, as saying (at an SF convention, I believe), "If you want to get rich, start a religion." Clearly, he is a very clever *deleted*! Or perhaps I should say "WAS a very clever..." There is serious ques- tion as to whether Hubbard still lives. The scientology *deleted*s maintain that he does, but that may be an elaborate fiction - they also have a mailbox in each of their "churches" into which the faithful can put "letters to Ron" - the supposition is that Hubbard himself reads and answers each one... Ah, me, my back aches! Cheers, Dick Binder decvax!decwrl!rhea!dosadi!binder ------------------------------ Date: 30 Mar 84 20:01:53-PST (Fri) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: L. Ron Hubbard The same. L. Ron Hubbard wrote a lot of pulp SF before he invented Scientology. And whether or not he really said it, "If you want to make a lot of money, start a religion," is atttributed to him. He also suckered his friend, A. E. Van Vogt, into Scientology. Wombat ihnp4!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat ------------------------------ Date: 31 March 1984 18:39-EST From: Steven A. Swernofsky Subject: here's the title, who's the author? I'd like to know who are the authors of these books: 1. Roadside Picnic (mentioned recently in SF-L) 2. The "Pelbar" series The Breaking of Northwall The Ends of the Circle The Dome in the Forest The Fall of the Shell An Ambush of Shadows 3. The Syndic Thank you. -- Steve ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 84 18:10:00 PST (Saturday) Subject: Short story query From: Kevin I vaguely recall a short story I'd like to find again. The main character is a man who finds the pattern of stop lights in a city. He uses it to drive across town without ever having to stop. He demonstrates this new-found knowledge to his wife, who is unimpressed. Eventually he meets a woman who does appreciate this skill of his. They also share a kind of telepathic and telekinetic ability. Somehow they come to be in a skyscraper under construction, with the police chasing them (for some reason). There is an accident, and she falls to her death. Blaming himself, he commits suicide. Sounds pretty wierd, huh? I think that's because of how little of it I recall. It did have a nice mood and was well written, I think. Anyone recognize it? ~Kevin ------------------------------ Date: 31 March 1984 16:48-EST From: Steven A. Swernofsky Subject: "Press Enter []" by John Varley To: Bakin @ HI-MULTICS You might be amused to note that every major character in this novella is named after a computer. Every one. Some are disguised, though. -- Steve P.S. SOME people (not everyone, but some) DO use 95% of the Hacker's Dictionary in every sentence they speak. Believe it. $$ ------------------------------ Date: 31 March 1984 18:08-EST From: Steven A. Swernofsky Subject: "Press Enter []" by John Varley To: Bakin.SSID @ HI-MULTICS I should amend my previous note. Two characters are named "Kluge" and "Foo". These are not QUITE names of computers, but they are close. Even the first names are used. Did you notice "Hal", "Lisa", and even "Victor"? -- Steve ------------------------------ Subject: Showscan Date: Mon, 2 Apr 84 01:13:49 EST From: Jeffrey Grossman Subject: Wahrman's entry on high spped (sic) film If Showscan is as much of an eyepopper as everybody says, then Trumbull should get in contact with Mike "Wizard of Speed and Time" Jittlov. Now THAT would be a team to make shorts! ------------------------------ Date: 30 Mar 84 11:50:32-PST (Fri) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!jay @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: high-speed film Trumbull is indeed sporting his a new high speed film process. He calls it SHOWSCAN. The first feature, New Magic is playing around the country at (get this) a chain of pizza parlors (Show Biz Pizza, to be exact). The film is about 20 minutes in length and unveils the possibilities of the new technology. This would have been a great way to have filmed Brainstorm. The film is shot at 60 frames per second and in true 70mm. It is not a 35mm scope print blown up like you get a your favorite movie theater. There are speakers everywhere and when they don't blast you away by turning the volume up to high, it is a wonderful audio/visual experience. The theater, btw, seats about 50 and there are no bad seats. The project is no more than 30 feet from the screen, 70mm at that distance would almost be good enough. For those of you who have experienced IMAX at the Smithsonian, the World's Fair, or some other illustrious site, this is at least as good, and probably better. Trumbull is supposedly going to come out with a film every few months (short ones, about 20 minutes each) and is now in the process of trying to convince theaters phase in this equipment. Whether or not he'll succeed is anybody's guess. -- Jay Elvove ..!seismo!umcp-cs!jay ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Apr 84 11:32:41 PST From: Peter Reiher Subject: Re: high speed film Counter-flame: "What kind of ridiculous nonsense is this? When will people realize that any kind of technical resource will not get you reaction and emotion from anyone? These are simply not replacements for high quality scripting, acting, and directing. " I think that you have misinterpreted the sense of the original statement that more frames per second gives heightened emotional responses from an audience. What seemed to me to be the intent is that the same scene, shot in the same way, by the same people, will look better with more frames per second. No one claimed that this was going to turn George Lucas into Eisenstein. (A few misguided souls may think that he already is, but that's another argument.) There is a school of criticism that seems to believe that directors from earlier periods worked under technical restrictions to preserve the purity of their art, rather than because that was all they had. These critics implicitly state that the giants of the past would still use nitrate film, hand-cranked cameras, black and white rather than color, and silent rather than sound. The truth is that most filmmakers embrace new technologies, once they have been perfected and are economically feasible. Even Chaplin eventually went to sound. New technologies usually do not make a filmmaker any better. They frequently do make his films better, because they allow him to more perfectly transfer his vision to the screen. Eisenstein probably would have killed to have the effects high-speed film are reputed to give. (Well, he would have killed a capitalist, at least.) By the way, the quality of silent film stock isn't nearly as bad as the common opinion would have it. Mint fresh 35mm silent prints are really beautiful. There just aren't very many of them around, because of the neglect of the studios, the volatile nature of nitrate film, and the fact that they are over 50 years old. The original audiences of films like "Potemkin" saw much better images than we see in them today. flame off Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 84 11:55:12-PST (Wed) From: harpo!ulysses!mhuxl!mhuxj!mhuxi!charm!mam @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Sure we can! The problem with FTL and special relativity is NOT that the speed of C is an "illegal" one for anything with mass or that it is mathematically impossible to go continuously from STL to FTL. Both are true under special relativity, but there are always loopholes, one of the most popular being hyperspace. The real problem is that FTL is equivalent to time travel into the past. This equivalence is derivable from STL Lorentz transformations which have been amply verified many times over. Thus, FTL and time travel share the same set of paradoxes. My own favorite to the Grandfather Paradox of time travel (back 50 yr., kill Gramps, you never born, you didn't kill....) is that NOTHING is certain, so by attempting to set up a paradox, you FORCE something unlikely to happen. As Niven puts it, "Try to save Jesus with a submachine gun, and the gun will POSITIVELY jam." In other words, time machines (and thus hyperdrives) are finite improbability generators in the sense of Hitchhiker. I once wrote an article for a fanzine called "Through a Black Hole and Into the Past on an FTL Ship with the Infinite Improbability Drive". It had section headings such as '"Don't Write That Article!", Said the Man who Looked a lot Like Me...". Enough maundering! {BTL}!charm!mam ------------------------------ Date: 26 Feb 84 7:03:49-PST (Sun) From: decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdccsu3!keves @ Ucb-Vax Subject: omni magazine news originating in san diego has not been reaching the outside world for about six weeks now, so i am reposting this article. sorry if you have seen it before. are you getting fed up with the way omni is mailing out their magazines now? i don't like getting my magazine with a mangled cover or no insides, etc... i suggest to everyone who is in my frame of mind to write to omni and tell them your displeasure. or if you prefer, you could send a letter to me and i will have it printed on a nice laser printer and mailed on to omni. thanks "Who is John Galt?" - Ayn Rand Name: Brian Keves Usenet: ...!sdcsvax!sdccsu3!keves ...!sdcsvax!sdcattb!za62 Decnet: ...!sdcsvax!sdccs2!za62#rv1 ...!sdcsvax!sdccs2!zz104bk USnail: UCSD Computer Center C-010 La Jolla, Ca. 92093 ----------------------------------------------- | Students of Objectivism | | ----------------------- | | Studying the Philosophy of Ayn Rand | | | | Sundays 11AM-2PM | | Home Savings of America Bank | | 4311 La Jolla Village Drive | | (619) 469-5039 University Towne Center | | San Diego, Ca. | ------------------------------ Date: Tue 3 Apr 84 01:55:36-CST From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA Subject: Dr. Manfred Clynes ^^^^^^ Anybody know the whereabouts of Dr. Manfred Clynes? ^^^^^^ Had a letter today from SF-author Suzette Haden Elgin, a real nice lady (and little-known but super filker) sadly afflicted with multiple sclerosis, asking my Information Specialist assistance. Mutual friends had told her I had contact with "some sort of be-acronymed information network that can find any piece of information whatsoever". Well, it sounds like they may have confusedly combined characteristics of ARPA-net and the commercial database, DIALOG, but the query seems tough enough to stretch the capabilities of even such a combination. She writes: "For the last two years, I have been trying to get a current mailing address for Dr. Manfred Clynes. The man invented the Computer of Average Transients. He was a famous biochemist. He has published books and articles by the peck. He is a concert pianist. And he founded the American Sentics Assn. He should NOT be hard to locate. I have tried all the usual things-- queries c/o his publishers, notices on electronic bulletin boards, and so on, to no avail. If you should be able to find Clynes for me, I'd be so grateful." Tomorrow I'll see if DIALOG or the university's reference librarian can come up with anything, but don't expect any better results than Dr. Elgin has managed. However, with the broad personal interests, resources, and contacts of SF-LOVERS readers, y'all just might solve the conundrum even if it \isn't/ directly science-fictional. Can anyone offer any leads other than the standard WHO'S WHO and AMERICAN MEN & WOMEN OF SCIENCE checking? (Meanwhile, WHAT is the "Computer of Average Transients", and WHAT are/is "sentics"?) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 4-Apr SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #56 *** EOOH *** Date: 4 Apr 84 1333-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #56 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 4 Apr 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 56 Today's Topics: Books - Hubbard (2 msgs) & Niven & Pynchon & Varley (2 msgs) & Willians & Review Rebuttal, Films - Star Wars (4 msgs), Television - The Tomorrow People, Miscellaneous - FTL ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue 3 Apr 84 12:07:44-PST From: Laurence R Brothers Subject: L. Ron Hubbard I can't remember where I read it, but Hubbard is supposed to have said at some con, "Someday I'm going to pull something that will make P.T. Barnum look like a piker!" -Laurence ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Apr 84 04:12 EST From: Paul Schauble Subject: L Ron Hubbard and Scientology Actually, starting the religion wasn't Hubbard's idea. John Campbell put him up to it. Campbell later wished he had kept the idea to himself and done it. Paul ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 84 11:19:49-PST (Sat) From: decvax!jmcg @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Niven's Integral Trees (no spoiler) I bought Niven's The Integral Trees last night. I foolishly started reading it around midnight before going to sleep. I didn't stop until I was done, around 5:30am. Be warned. The Integral Trees takes place in the gaseous doughnut surrounding an old neutron star. Niven has performed the appropriate writer's magic to make this setting plausible from the point of view of recent physics, though I felt the biology and human culture to be less carefully crafted. The story itself is engaging enough, but lacked the humor and character depth I remember from the Known Space books. Cheap narrative tricks are used to inject the "lectures" that explain how the place works. Although most of the main characters "grow", the reader is not invited in to experience the changes but simply gets to observe them. There's more sex than in previous Niven novels. But, hey, we're talking about a science fiction novel here. That's all it is, though written by a favorite author. My recommendation: Read it, but wait for the paperback. --jmcg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Apr 1984 13:16:44 EST From: David M. Axler - MSCF Applications Mgr. From: Subject: "Slow Learner" by Thomas Pynchon Though his work isn't totally sf in nature, the writings of Thomas Pynchon are close enough to merit mention in this list. So, for all you Pynchon fans out there, here's a piece of good news: The newly-released hardback entitled "Slow Learner" contains the five hard-to-find short stories written by Pynchon between 1959 and 1964. These stories were published in small-press magazines and have been pretty much impossible to locate since then, though they have been occasionally reprinted in chapbook form overseas (Ziesing Bros. sometimes has these chapbooks in stock, if anyone's interested). The book is not that long, and with a $14.95 price tag, I'd recommend that people wait for paperback release. The contents are: 1) Introduction (assorted historical looking-backward comments by Pynchon on the stories and their creation). 2) "The Small Rain" (March '59) 3) "Low-lands" (March '60) 4) "Entropy" (Spring '60) 5) "Under the Rose" (May '61) 6) "The Secret Integration" (December '64). These stories are all fairly long -- 20-30 pp. each, and would be better termed novellas or novelets. Some, by the way, mark the first appearances of concepts and characters that later appeared in Pynchon's novels, including the infamous Pig Bodine. --Dave Axler ------------------------------ Date: 3 Apr 1984 1714-PST Subject: Press Enter[] From: John Platt Actually, no one I know of here at Caltech speaks in "hacker". In fact, that was one of the reason I disliked Press Enter[]: it had a poorly researched background. Normally, I like John Varley. His plots are interesting (look at some of the short stories in "The Persistence of Vision" and "The Barbie Murders"). But, he sometimes gets obsessed with certain themes, then he goes off of the deep end. For example, rishathtra seemed to dominate "Wizard" and a hate for computers dominated "The Ophiuchi Hotline" and "Press Enter[]". In the last case, Varley seemed to swallow the hackers dictionary, and spew out a poorly written paranoic short story. Sigh. Very disappointing. At least David Brin knows how Techers speak . John (Foo? Who's Foo?) Platt platt @ cit-20 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Apr 1984 05:42 EST From: RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: "Press Enter[]" Is one of two hacker stories out this month. The other is in Asimov's, and presents hackers in an even worse light. I believe Varley wrote that one too. I remember seeing a new item saying he had teamed up with a programmer (probably the coauthor of "Press Enter[]"), and was trading law knowlege for computer info. What annoys me about both stories are these common themes: o AI programs can appear out of nothing, based on critical mass. (I do admire the idea in "Valentina", the other story, of the AI occuring from the use of bad disk sectors to steal resources). More, that these intelligences would be anything like human intelligences. o There are computers on easily accessable nets which can be broken into, and which contain sensitive personal or military data under no protection. o No system can be protected from an attack of sufficient skill. o All computers can talk to all others, and control them. The fact that non-programmers are learning the language is to be feared, not greeted. All it means is that writers can write crap with convincing language, which scares people needlessly. James M. Turner RG.JMTURN!MIT-MC@MIT-OZ P.S. If I see one more bloody system MOTD which reads "Welcome, Professor Falken", or "Shall we play a game", I think I'm going to throw my terminal! Preferably at WarGame's writers! ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 3 Apr 1984 12:44-PST Subject: Paul O. Williams From: Kevin W. Rudd wrote the Pelbar series. he is an english professor at principia college outside of saint louis. -- K ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 3 Apr 1984 10:39-PST Subject: defense of chalker/foster From: Kevin W. Rudd I won't say that I often read pulp sf/fantasy, but both of these authors are MUCH better than many that are out attempting to sell books. Case in point -- I just (after 7 years of gathering dust) read Lin Carter's epic introduction Journey to the Underground World. All I can say is that at least Chalker had SOME substance to it. The only book which I have read which carries off the "Oh, no, this is THE END, there is no escape poss--- wait! Thank God for the ... [etc.]" is Harry Harrison's Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers. This book, like River of the Dancing Gods, and VERY UNLIKE Journey to the Underground World, doesn't take itself TOO seriously. Sometimes it is just kind of amusing to read a book like that. Needless to say, it will be at least another 7 years before I read another Lin Carter book. -- K ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 84 13:14:57-PST (Wed) From: ihnp4!houxm!houxz!disc @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Endor and the Death Star A point nobody seems to have made... If I had the capability to make such a shield, I certainly would have put one on the Death Star!! Since the force field didn't seem to take up THAT much room, and the Death Star is "the size of a small moon", I'm sure it would have fit on (and could have been powered by) the battle station. So why, once the battle had begun, didn't the Emperor raise the shield on the "fully operational" battle station? Perhaps they needed it lowered to fire the weapon...? SJBerry ------------------------------ Date: 26 Feb 84 8:58:14-PST (Sun) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!akgua!psuvax!starner @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: It *is NOT* Endor! - (nf) The exact lines from the movie are: Two red Imperial Guards stand watch at the elevator as the door opens to reveal Vader. Vader enters the eerie, foreboding throne room. It appears to be empty. His footsteps echo as he approaches the throne. He waits, absolutely still. The Emperor sits with his back to the Dark Lord. EMPEROR: I told you to reamin on the command ship. VADER: A small rebel force has penetarted the shield and landed on Endor. EMPEROR: (no surprise) Yes, I know. VADER: (after a beat) My son is with them. EMPEROR: (very cool) Are you sure? VADER: I have felt him, my Master. EMPEROR: Strange that I have not. I wonder if your feelings on this matter are clear, Lord Vader. Vader knows what he is being asked. VADER: They are clear, my Master. EMPEROR: Then you must go to the Sanctaury Moon and wait for him. VADER: (skeptical) He will come to me? EMPEROR: I have forseen it. His compassion for you will be his undoing. He will come to you and then you will bring him to me. VADER: (bows) As you wish. The Dark Lord strides out of the throne room. Mark L. Starner Pennsylvania State University {allegra, burdvax, akgua, ihnp4}!psuvax!starner ------------------------------ Date: 30 Mar 84 7:13:49-PST (Fri) From: ihnp4!houxm!houxz!disc @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Endor and the Death Star > It is easily conceivable that such a force shield must originate > from some power-generating place (the moon) and be projected to > the thing it protects. Trying to put the generating station on > the Death Star would be like sitting in a car and pushing on the > dashboard -- you don't go anywhere. I don't recall the starship Enterprise ever having to drag a planet everywhere they go in order to use their deflector shields... SJBerry ------------------------------ Date: 30 Mar 84 8:32:50-PST (Fri) From: harpo!infopro!dave @ Ucb-Vax Subject: RE: Re: Endor and the Death Star You forget that Star Trek happens in the future, but Star Wars happened in the past... "That's the biz, sweetheart..." Dave Fiedler {harpo,astrovax,philabs}!infopro!dave ------------------------------ Date: 30 Mar 84 5:44:21-PST (Fri) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!aplvax!mae @ Ucb-Vax Subject: re: The Tomorrow People Alan R. Katz asks for information on the British show "The Tomorrow People". I've watched the whole thing on Nickelodeon and liked most of it, it gets rather silly toward the end. Each story is a serial of from 2 to 5 parts. It is by Thames Television (not BBC). Alan: "The heroes are kids who have special powers of some sort." The "tomorrow people" feel they are the next step in human evolution. Their special powers (telepathy, short range teleportation- "jaunting", telekenesis, depending on the person) "break out" during adolescence, an effect similar to threshold sickness in the Darkover books. The main character, John, is the first tomorrow person known to have survived this without subconsciously rejecting the powers and not being able to use them fully. He was contacted by a federation of telepathic alien races who will one day invite humans to join them and who, since a telepathic race is developing on earth, watch over it and protect this development from the interference of violent, nontelepathic races. An effect of the telepathic development is the inability to commit any violent acts. They are dedicated to finding other developing tomorrow people and in keeping their existence secret from all governments and military organizations, for fear of being exploited. Alan: "They can teleport (sometimes they need some kind of gadget, sometimes they don't)." Short "jaunts" don't need power/computer assistance. For longer distances the computer can coordinate and trace their teleportation. Alan: "They have some sort of self aware computer (or something, its not clear its really a computer)." The computer, named Tim, was built by John using technology from the aliens. The serials get shorter and sillier as the show progresses. For Doctor Who fans out there - the very worst serial has Peter Davison's TV debut, it is so bad it's embarrassing to watch. Mary Anne Espenshade ...!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!mae ------------------------------ Date: Tue 3 Apr 84 17:29:43-EST From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA Subject: Keep the Starships Flying! In the old days, we were plagued with people who proved the Earth flat, on the basis of impeccably garbled Aristotelean physics. Then we had the sound barrier, the proofs that a bumblebee can't fly, that rockets couldn't work in a vacuum (they would have nothing to push against) and so on. Today it is FTL travel that seems to rattle the cages of the apostles of final truth. Well, I think they're probably wrong. First, Einstein's Theory of General Relativity is not final truth, any more that Newton, Descartes, Galileo or Boskovich established final truth. So at most one might say "as far as we understand it at present, FTL travel is impossible". Secondly, even that is not true. Nothing in General Relativity prohibits FTL travel - it is merely acceleration upto and through the speed of light that seems to involve infinities. And I'm not completely certain that these infinities are totally prohibitive - we have similar infinities in quantum electrodynamics, and in Olbers' Paradox, but they no longer worry people. If we suppose some "tunnelling" transition from sublight to superlight speeds, then, as Feynman showed, it is possible to construct equations that reasonably describe FTL motion. Thirdly, FTL travel does not involve travel backwards in time. If you plug velocities greater than "c" into the Lorentz equations, you do not get a reversal of the sign of "t"; you get terms involving "i.t". Now I have no idea what imaginary time means, but then I have no idea what a lot of physics means. If you went on a voyage round the Galaxy by FTL ship, in other words, you would get back home to find SOME time had elapsed on earth, and you couldn't kill your granmdfather. There are anomalies associated with signalling and synchronization, but they all resolve if we throw out the assumption that no information can travel faster than light - which the Wu experiment disproved anyway, in the quantum realm. Moreover, there is no inherent contradiction in the idea of moving backwards in time. Most physical equations remain valid under time reversal - Newton's equations of motion, Clausius' heat equations, Maxwell's equations, the "relative state" reformulations of Schroedinger's equation, &c. In addition, most physical laws can be rewritten not in terms of differential equations (which some people interpret as implying causality) but in terms of integral equations (which those same people do not interpret as implying finality or entelechy). A famous example is Heron's Brachistochrone theorem, the "final" reformulation of Snell's "causal" law of refraction. The alleged "paradoxes" of time travel are a figment of inadequate mathematical descriptions; using integral equations, the problems usually resolve to finding the fixed point of a function. Differential methods (and computers) find the weakest fixed point, which is not the same thing at all. So keep designing those starships, friends! Robert Firth ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 5-Apr SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #57 *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Apr 84 1318-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #57 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 5 Apr 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 57 Today's Topics: Books - Harrison & Kornbluth & Williamson & Author Requests Answered & Story Request, Films - Star Wars, Television - The Tomorrow People, Miscellaneous - Time Travel & FTL ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 4 April 1984 21:13-EST From: James A. Cox Subject: Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers To: "kevinw@SU-DSN@ISL" @ SUMEX-AIM "Doesn't take itself too seriously" is right. If memory serves, the book had some kids flying around the galaxy in a "modified" 747. ------------------------------ Date: Tue 3 Apr 84 17:07:12-EST From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA Subject: Author Enquiry The Syndic was written by C M Kornbluth, I believe in the late '40s. It's a great SF novel, though its premise - that government by organiszd crime would be more tolerable, more efficient and more honest than what we have now - is perhaps too extreme for our present decade. [Moderator's Note: thanks also to Chip (nylander%orphan.DEC%decwrl@csnet-relay) for the same information.] ------------------------------ Date: Wed 4 Apr 84 15:39:39-MST From: Jerry Duggan Subject: Re: title request... Jack Williamson wrote the Pelbar series jpd ------------------------------ Date: 4 Apr 1984 07:14:11-EST From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX Subject: author request ROADSIDE PICNIC by Strugatsky & Strugatsky? (I won't argue with a majority.) THE SYNDIC by Cyril M. Kornbluth (probably the best novel by K w/o Pohl) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Apr 84 08:30 PST From: MDugan.ES@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #56 I committed the Ultimate mistake and let someone borrow a favorite SF book which I occasionally reread just for the fun of it (this was about 8 yrs. ago). I further complicated the mistake by forgetting the Author and title. I am hoping someone can help me locate it again (any pointers to where to get a copy would help as well). The story line went something like this: A WWII submarine was attacking an enemy destroyer in the Pacific and there was a terrible collision but when the lights came back on everything seemed to be okay and the sub proceeded to port. As the story progressed the crew discovered they really weren't at Pearl Harbor but instead a pretty good duplicate. The captain is finally appraised that not only are they not at Pearl but they are not even on Earth. The basic premise was that the Earth had progressed through many centuries and had genetically engineered out the capacity for mankind to participate in violence (war and fighting) during one of the political swings to pacifism. The sub was, in fact, heavily damaged by the destroyer back in 1942 and quickly went to the bottom with all crewmen on board. The combination of sea water and a special cargo of chemicals combined into a preservative that allowed the boat to be raised and the crew partially revived around the year 2000. (this is an area of the book that I found implausible) The crew and boat were turned into a museum exibit and demonstrated WWII sea technology for many years. Finally, mankind was attacked by an Alien civilization and needed help to fight back. The sub crew was brought to the planet under attack, revived to consciousness, and gradually educated about their status/history, the year, etc. The rest of the book describes how the sub crew becomes a catalyst for a counter-attack and how it is carried out. The book was an interesting combination of a WWII submarine yarn and a neat Sci-fi premise. ANY help locating this book again will be greatly appreciated!! Mike ------------------------------ Date: 29 Mar 84 19:51:53-PST (Thu) From: decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdccs7!ee163aca @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Endor and the Death Star I was under the impression that the Death Star was not fully-operational until the last minute. I seem to recall Darth getting ticked-off at the commander of the thing, because work was progressing so slowly ( "We will double our efforts" I believe was his reply ). A shield would be necessary to protect the Death Star until it was tested-out. I sure wouldn't stake my one and only Death Star to the Rebel Fleet if I hadn't tested it out yet. P. van de Graaf U. C. San Diego ------------------------------ Date: 29 Mar 84 17:28:43-PST (Thu) From: decvax!mcnc!duke!ucf-cs!giles @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: The Tomorrow People Disclaimer -- I used to watch the show as a form of static. MTV was too distracting and it was easier to pipe TTP > /dev/null than try to actively ignore my noisy apartment complex. All precision is due to (1) simplicity and (2) repetition. *The Tomorrow People* was a somewhat inconsistent British television show of the mid 1970's. It is my understanding that it was originally intended for the full audience, but is only used as a kid's show in North America. (verilee interesting....) The basic premise was not unlike *Childhood's End*, except that it was somewhat less distressing to the adults. In a nutshell, the "Tomorrow People" are the evolutionary step beyond homo sapiens, and in fact they modestly called themselves "homo superior" and everyone else "saps" for the first few seasons. Their native talents, which do not appear until the early teens, are teleportation, telepathy, and psychokinesis. In return for their abilities they are unable to kill others, even in order to save themselves. (Have I heard this somewhere before?) Although they can teleport themselves, they generally use those devices (there were three versions of them) for added range. The computer was a "biological" computer which "John" constructed from pieces he (unknowingly) received from the "Galactic Federation". Yeah. Somehow, this computer was also capable of telepathy and monitoring all television and radio frequencies throughout the world, along with controlling several deep-space spacecraft which act as a "DEW" line for the earth. No mention was ever made of how these satellites were placed into position. Of course, this computer is fully intelligent, and as I recall occasionally quoted Shakespeare. They also had several other interesting devices, to put it mildly. I must admit, however, that the devices generally made some sense, despite the fact that the nearest real-life equivalent would cost billions of dollars and require a nearby FermiLab or CERN, while theirs either fit into a pocket or were part of the computer's equipment. As I mentioned, the shows were somewhat inconsistent. Here is a breakdown by season, but I've forgotten a great deal of the details: 1: (1972?) Characters: John, (white male, late teens) Carol, (white female, mid-late teens) Peter, (white male, early teens) ..?.., (black male, early-mid teens) Action: Primarily tried to protect themselves from the hostile "saps." Spent a great deal of time in converted subway lab. 2: Characters: John, Peter Elizabeth, (black female, early 20's) Action: Still protecting themselves from hostile "saps," although Elizabeth, a school teacher, forced them to spend more time helping others. Went forward 500 years and assisted a "time lord" or something, making enemy of robot they teleported to Mercury. Went back to Roman times, screwed up, and returned to a 20th century Roman empire spread throughout the galaxy. Something about a steam engine.... 3: Characters: John, Peter, Elizabeth ..?.. (white male, early teens) Action: Rescued another tomorrow person from the evil grasp of a parapsychologist, and hence the evil grasp of the military. (Come again?), meet yet another tomorrow person (..?..: white female, early 20's) working for the military, freed a planet held by the same aliens who (1) built the pyramids of Egypt, (2) use mind-waves that prevent parapsychological abilities, and (3) enjoy humanburgers. Robot from first season returns, generally makes the show half-way exciting, and tries to enslave the TP. Results in TP being sold out in supermarkets worldwide... no, that was Johnny Carson,... oh yeah, Galatic Federation Hero arrives, takes TP (no, I will NOT say it!) back to Federation Headquarters for indefinite period, parapsychologist goes into coma from shock of losing his subjects. 4: Characters: John, Elizabeth, ..?.. (?) Mike (white male, early teens) Action: Show renewed. Several TP return to earth. Meanwhile, yet another TP arrives on scene, leads to interesting discussion of social classes in mid 1970's England. By now the TP have started working their way into the British Government (i.e. they kidnapped the Prime Minister), tangle with Russian spies, tangle with M5 or Scotland Yard or some other such group, save the world from destruction by a radical Scottish terrorist group that (1) hijacks a rocket to (2) hijack a U.N. peacekeeping space-station armed with nuclear weapons. (Some of the writers were listening to the Governor of California, apparently). 5: Characters: John, Elizabeth, Mike Sun Lee (?) (oriental female, late teens) Andrew (white male, early teens) Action: Set finally replaced with something looking half-decent. Mini-computer (portable) constructed. Sun Lee (?) saved from human sacrifice in orient. Andrew caught while creating ghosts and goblins in his father's hotel, Nessie on the Loch. Show definitely shows the end of imagination of the writers. Finale: Earth caught in war between two alien species. American President made to look like a total idiot. AP speaks with *heavy* Texas accent, also. American military also made to look like total idiots, worse than *WarGames*. Galactic Federation suddenly decides to play "But what can we do" when it is discovered that the earth is soon not to be, John thrown in jail because of emotional outburst in front of council (*very* cheap aliens, incidently). Fellow TPers with aid of American astronaut they saved earlier in show steal military spacecraft, go to Federation Headquarters, and nuke it. (Note: FH is a giant spacecraft thingee). The perfect shots they are, they hit an empty warehouse. (With a nuclear weapon? I think someone needs to talk to the writers...). John released, TP go back to earth and single-handedly defend it, hand control back to the American President (which is good for a few chuckles), and the Federation comes to them to apologize, saying they were right and it was time for a new beginning in the Federation.... Conclusion: It has got to be better than *HeMan: Master of the Universe* for impressing kids with science fiction. But I keep wondering how the Tomorrow People would ever survive. They went through probabily 10 TP, and except for one instance "he" never noticed "she" (and vice versa) despite living together around the clock and being at an age when hormone levels are rather high. But, of course, a kid won't notice that, RIGHT?! ave discordia going bump in the night ... bruce giles decvax!ucf-cs!giles university of central florida giles.ucf-cs@Rand-Relay orlando, florida 32816 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 1984 19:47 EST From: RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: harpo!ulysses!mhuxl!mhuxj!mhuxi!charm!mam@UCB-VAX.ARPA Subject: Sure we can! I don't believe in sentient universes... Or, to expand, the problem I always had with the model of time travel as put forth by people like Niven (Jesus dying because of a jammed machine gun, etc), is that it implied a sentient and very clever universe trying to unbolix the mess you make. I prefer the idea that you can change the future, but the amount of energy it takes to throw you into the past is equal to the amount of damage you do. Since this can be a function of your state of mind when you leave, you may be able to go one day, but not the next. For example: A man decides to go and kill his father. He hops into his time machine and presses go...red lights start to blink and smoke comes out before the override cuts in. He realizes that since his GF was going to invent a cure for cancer *after* he was going to be killed, too much was going to be different, thus too much mass would eventually be in a different position. The next day, he sets the dial for just *after* the cure is discovered, and manages to make it, because less changes in the world. I still don't want his power bill.... James ------------------------------ Date: 4 Apr 1984 1532-EST From: "John Redford" Subject: Re: FTL travel I believe Steve Maurer is right about the physics problems of FTL drives; if you travel faster than light there are reference frames in which you travel backwards in time. It shouldn't make a difference whether you do it with tachyons or hyperdrives or whatever. You are still going to violate causality, and that's a little more valuable than the prospect of interstellar tourism. However, all of that is irrelevant. FTL travel is just a device to project the great explorations of the past into the future. Writers want to retell the great stories of Magellan and Cook (Captain James Cook => Captain James T. Kirk) but can't do it in terms of sailing ships and Polynesian islands because they've become too familiar. They want to talk about strange new civilizations and colonies and empires, but all the present-day opportunities have become too prosaic. Do you want to write a story about a hive city teeming with intrigue, whose inhabitants live and die within the same cramped quarters? Well, Hong Kong is where we get tennis shoes and cheap watches. Would you like to write about mighty battles between colossal ships, with the fates of empires hanging in the balance? Old Fred down the street fought at Midway and will tell you about it at length. The real constraints of interstellar travel are not compatible with stories like this. If you use time dilation or suspended animation to fit the story into one person's lifetime then the characters are permanently cut off from their home culture. You won't come back from an interstellar battle covered in glory because the war will have occurred centuries in the past for the people back on Earth (Eg "The Forever War"). Maintaining an empire is ridiculous when it takes twenty years to dispatch troops to a trouble spot. If you make your characters into patient immortals willing to wait out the long journeys (Eg "Protector") they become less human and harder to identify with. If you are worried more about getting somewhere rather than telling good stories about it, then relativity is actually an advantage. With time dilation you can get a virtual speed much greater than that of light. That is, you can travel a light-year in the Earth frame in less than a year of ship time. At 0.99c the people on board see themselves as going seven light-years per year. The real limit to how fast you can go is how much energy you have to expend to do it. To go seven times the speed of light (2.1 billion m/s) requires a kinetic energy of 2.2 * 10^18 joules per kilogram without special relativity, and only 5.5 * 10^17 j/kg with it, a factor of four difference. At 100c special relativity wins by a factor of fifty. Of course, at that level you have minor problems like dust coming at you at .999c and starlight being dopplered up into X-rays, but if you can figure out a way to put that much energy into something you're probably smart enough to solve the other problems too. John Redford DEC-Hudson ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 6-Apr SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #58 *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Apr 84 1349-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #58 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 6 Apr 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 58 Today's Topics: Books - Brin & High (2 msgs) & Hubbard & Author Correction & "Valentina", Films - Star Wars & High Speed Film (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Assistance Please & "Once is an Accident" & Time Paradoxes & FTL (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 1 Apr 84 1:20:31-PST (Sun) From: ihnp4!zehntel!zinfandel!berry @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: The Practice Effect **teensie spoile - (nf) >> Hmm... maybe there IS sometime to the "Practice Effect" ;-} >No, he specifically mentioned that the Practice Effect did not work >on animate matter. Nice try.... Perhaps what he does is take one manuscript, practice it a while, send a copy off to a publisher, practice it some more, send off another copy, etc. etc. Surely you can practice a manuscript! Just read it a lot! --berry (Why isn't my terminal getting any better?) kercheval ------------------------------ Date: 5 Apr 84 12:03 PST (Thursday) From: Hallgren.pa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #57 In answer to Mike Dugans' author & title request, the book he is looking for is "Time Mercenaries" by Philip E. High it is an ACE Double. The genetic engineering wasn't too successful; a punch in the nose undid it. The enemy, by the way, were a race of intelligent frogs! and mankind were aided by some "elfish-people" allies. A fun read all right! Other favorites by High, "The Prodigal Sun", a novel, " and four other ACE Double stories. Enjoy. Clark H. ------------------------------ Date: Fri 6 Apr 84 02:24:27-CST From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA Subject: Submarine story identification Cc: mougan.es@PARC-MAXC.ARPA ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ The Submarine-SF Story ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Mark's mis-remembered the ocean and the port (not the Pacific and Pearl Harbor-- Atlantic, and somewhere in Britain), but he recognizes a good tale! It's THE TIME MERCENARIES by Philip E. High. A 1968 Ace "double" (H59), about the only sources would be specialist dealers or at cons (check the ads in LOCUS for likely suppliers). The price shouldn't be too bad since High doesn't have a big following to run it up, tho there ARE a lot of Ace-Doubles collectors who mess a writer's real fans up by collecting for collecting's sake. Philip E. High fans of the world-- Arise! ------------------------------ Date: 30 Mar 84 12:50:54-PST (Fri) From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!houti!ariel!vax135!floyd!clyde!watmath!utzoo!k From: carroll @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Hubbard L. Ron Hubbard is in fact the inventor of Dianetics, and the guru of Scientology. He was also, in the 1940's (before inventing dianetics), a science-fiction writer, and a popular one at that. I believe that he was responsible for the "Ol' Doc Methuselah" series of stories. For those who haven't heard the story, dianetics took the science-fiction community by storm. A.E. van Vogt and John W. Campbell in particular became involved in it. Several writers had themselves "cleared" by Hubbard (I think that's the terminology), and went on to become "auditors", trying to "clear" all of their friends. I beleive that Campbell's second wife he met thru dianetics. However, most reasonable people became quickly disenchanted with the whole thing ( within about a year). Hubbard then went on to found his little religion; he seems to have done quite well by it, although he spends most of his time on his yacht, out in international waters, to avoid being arrested by the FBI. -Kieran A. Carroll ...decvax!utzoo!kcarroll ------------------------------ Date: Thu 5 Apr 84 16:26:41-PST From: Rich Zellich Subject: Correction on author of "Pelbar Cycle" WHOA!! The Pelbar novels were NOT written by Jack Williamson, they were written by the 1983 Campbell Award winner, Paul O. Williams. -Rich [Moderator's Note: Thanks also to LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20 who sent the same correction ] ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 6 Apr 1984 09:27:31-PST From: turner%parsec.DEC%decwrl.ARPA@csnet-relay.ARPA To: cc%decwrl.ARPA@csnet-relay.ARPA Subject: Valentina & Cohortroutines "Valentina" is in May Analog, not Asimov's, and is not by Varley at all; the item JMT remembers is April's "In Times to Come": ...Both Marc Stiegler and Joseph H. Delaney have become well known to Analog readers, but "Valentina" didn't become a real possibility until they met face to face at the 1982 World SF Convention in Chicago. There Joe remarked that he had a story that he'd love to write if he knew more about computers, and it turned out Marc had been holding back on a similar one because he didn't know enough law. Well, Joe is a lawyer and Marc a computer expert, and... I thought "Valentina" was kind of cute, though I don't know what I'm comparing it to cuz I missed "Hit Enter[]" (note Varley apparently knew the restrictions imposed on manual-writers by standards-writers). Based on a few details like the Mar-14 security robot, I think the story is set a little in the future when, we are to assume, not all but a whole lot of computers (DEC had 1950 last time I saw someone count'em, hi guys) are on a worldwide net because they need it for information trade. So much for easy access -- at least Stiegler doesn't pretend we can do a DIRectory when we've failed to log in. Now as to control and breaking in, we are once again being asked to believe in an improbably competent HUMAN. (I'm not claiming anything is unbreakable in principle until I find whether that fellow in Israel really cracked a trapdoor encryption, so I'll play along with the assumption that it's just a matter of DEGREE of skill.) I still don't believe in Gunboat Smith, I also disbelieve in Indiana Jones three times each day before breakfast, for practice. But the super-whiz or -wiz is one of the most enduring and most fondly endured improbabilities foisted upon us by science fiction in the name of suspending disbelief. Along with socks that stand up by themselves (if they can do that, it's because they're never by themselves)! Humans definitely suffer more stereotyping than computers in this story, but we can go along by convention. The AI program in "Valentina" didn't appear out of nothing -- its intelligence or self-awareness did! If you doubt the discontinuity between intelligence and intelligent behavior -- which would make the emergence of intelligence on earth what we call a catastrophe, right? -- then you'd probably also believe that frogs have souls (little ones). You'd be right, but that's another item. Point is, given that there once was no intelligence and now there is some, if intelligence doesn't appear out of nothing then you have to admit it develops out of something that already has no or less intelligence; all the AI programs I've ever seen met that criterion. [If you think intelligence CAN appear out of nothing, then no problem: it might as well appear out of THIS nothing.] I take issue most strongly with the doubt that artificial intelligences would be anything like human ones. One of the most striking features (and virtues) of intelligence is abstraction from its physical circumstances. And although the abstraction may be much less complete than many give it credit for, remember the "laws of thought" according to which Valentina was constructed were thought up by a human. I think we face the exobiologists' challenge, distinguishing the similarities we should expect from the differences we may or may not be able to imagine. "Valentina" doesn't follow the second, often entertaining set of possibilities very far, though deassigning Gunboat's I/O ports with the robot's "non-maskable interrupt" transmitter is a nice start. By the way, I am not the same person to which this response is directed (note the different middle initial). I am convinced that James M. Turner was artificially created when one of my AI programs punched a second hole in the RX50 of my Pro, escaped, and swiped some bad blocks containing data which was corrupted in that all the "W"s were upside down. -- James W. Turner DEC/CSME ------------------------------ Date: 29 Mar 84 13:58:06-PST (Thu) From: harpo!ulysses!allegra!alice!rabbit!sdh @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Loose Ends? What I want to know is: What happened to all those imperial cruisers that were dicing the rebel forces (or so said the emperor). From what I remember from sw, just one of those was a formidable attack force, since they had loads of them, where did they go? Don't tell me they got blown up with the death star, because the rebels would've been taken with them. "Life.. don't talk to me about life" -Marvin !rabbit!sdh Steve Hawley ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Apr 84 00:02:56 EST From: Paul Milazzo Subject: New technologies and the cinema > "The truth is that most filmmakers embrace new technologies, > once they have been perfected and are economically feasible. > Even Chaplin eventually went to sound." > - Peter Reiher True, but the process is usually painful and not always better in every respect. For evidence of the former, consider the effect the advent of sound had on Abel Gance; he destroyed his just-completed (silent) "Napoleon". Of course, he also later made many sound films. In support of the latter point, many people have pointed out that the special effects in Fritz Lang's "Metropolis" were made possible only by the greater latitude of black-and-white film. Paul G. Milazzo (temporarily hiding at CMU) Dept. of Computer Science Rice University, Houston, TX ------------------------------ Date: 1 Apr 84 21:36:54-PST (Sun) From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!floyd!clyde!watmath!wa From: tcgl!dmmartindale @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: high-speed film Does SHOWSCAN use 70mm film running vertically or horizontally? (IMAX is horizontal.) Is it wide-screen or close to normal 4:3 ratio? With 60 frames/sec, motion would be a lot smoother. Does it use a single- blade shutter in the projector? That would get rid of the double-image effects seen when something moves rapidly. I wanna see it! ------------------------------ Date: 4 Apr 1984 13:27:35-EST From: carol at mit-cipg I am writing an sf short story, and need the assistance of a broad-minded Physicist for some plausible bogus physics. Is there somebody out there who would be willing to help me? Thanks in advance. carol@mit-cipg p.s. I know there's a physics net, but thought I'd have better luck here. ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 5 Apr 1984 11:26:34-PST From: minow%rex.DEC%decwrl.ARPA@csnet-relay.arpa Subject: Once is an accident In SFL V9.53, Jerry Bakin (Bakin @ HI-MULTICS) quotes one of Arthur Clarke's characters as observing "once is an accident, twice is a coincidence, three times is a conspiracy." If I remember correctly, the first use of that phrase was from one of the James Bond novels (Goldfinger?): "once is happistance, twice is an accident, three times is enemy action." Martin Minow ------------------------------ Date: 5 Apr 1984 18:08:12-EST From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX Subject: time paradoxes vs. the universe Niven's remark is possibly borrowing from L. Sprague de Camp's solution as described in A GUN FOR DINOSAUR: attempting to cause a paradox creates such a strain on the fabric of the universe that you are slammed back to your starting point, with the effect of having covered a distance of c * t in minimal subjective time (this has the tendency to reduce paradoctors to jelly). Niven and Alfred Bester also considered the fantastical approach: time travel affects your own reality, either by sending you to a semi-imaginary universe (Niven) or by gradually fading you out of this one (Bester). Cute... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Apr 84 10:31 EST From: "Allan C. Wechsler" Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #56 It used to be only death and taxes. But now, it seems, there are three things one cannot prevent: death, taxes, and ignorant people misinterpreting Special Relativity. I've been on this list a long time. I must have read the following "FTL manifesto" at least twenty times. I rephrase it for reference I) Special Relativity prohibits, not travel faster than light, but acceleration through the "light barrier". II) Special Relativity does not involve time reversal. It only involves "imaginary time". III) Anyone who disagrees with I and II is a conservative Neanderthal who, if his disease were only a little worse, would defend the Flat Earth. I resist the temptation to explain Special Relativity once again. Suffice it to say that people who espouse I and II are ignorant of the theory. I and II are simply dead wrong. They are misinterpretations based on people looking only at the Lorenz Transformation. They think that that is all there is to Special Relativity. Special Relativity expressly forbids information from any event escaping the light-cone of that event. I said EXPRESSLY. Check Einstein, dammit, and stop relying on Heinlein as an authority. Oops, I'm flaming. Sorry. I know you would rather believe in the Flat Earth than give up FTL. --- Allan ------------------------------ Date: Fri 6 Apr 84 07:22:02-EST From: Joseph A. Frisbie Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #56 If you can cruise around faster than light, then it follows (from special relativity, Lorentz transformations, etc) that you can find a frame of reference where A occurs before B, and one where B occurs before A for any two events A and B. I'm sure you've pictures of light cones where spacetime is divided into regions -- events that couldn't have effect A, events that could, events A can effect, events that A will never effect. All this goes away and your left with any event able to affect any other event, not so good if you want to hang on to causality. Thermodynamics is the only process that is not time-symetric, you can tell which way time is running by seeing if you are creating or losing ordered energy. Joe ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 9-Apr SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #59 *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Apr 84 1631-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #59 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 9 Apr 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 59 Today's Topics: Books - Bradbury & Hubbard & Lem (3 msgs) & Book Reviews & "Valentina", Films - High Speed Film (3 msgs) & Star Trek & Star Wars (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: allegra!scgvaxd!4ccvax!KVANSTONE@Berkeley Date: Fri, 6 Apr 84 14:46:39 est Subject: out-of print Bradbury GREETINGS, I am a Ray Bradbury fanatic and am trying to develope a complete Bradbury collection. I have all in-print bradbury books and many out of print ones including some that were never for sale in the U.S. (specificaly "The Day it Rained Forever" from Penguin books), and many anthologies containing Bradburie's work. My problem is that I can find no books that I don't already have. I have tried title searches through various used book stores on the titles that I allready know and after six months have come up with one posible lead on one book. I have also searched through every used boook store I can get my hands on, and I have searched through "Books In Print". I found nothing! Does anyone know where I can find other out of print Bradbury books or even where I can find a list of all bradbury titles ever printed? It doesn't matter if some of them are gatherings of stories printed in other books -- I told you I'm a fanatic. Also: how would I go about finding titles and doing searches on my own? This information would be useful for fanatics of any author. Thanks Kevin A. Cheek ------------------------------ Date: 4 Apr 84 16:47:50-PST (Wed) From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!uw-june!palmer @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: L. Ron Hubbard My favorite L. Ron Hubbard quote is approximately: "Someday I'll pull something that will make P. T. Barnum look like a piker." This was quoted in a book about writing science fiction. The book was by a husband-wife team (I think either the del Rays, the van Voghts, or the Andersons) but I can't remember any more details. I don't know whether the Scientologists believe that 'Ron' has the gift of prophesy, but this is certainly compelling evidence. David Palmer ------------------------------ Date: 2 Apr 84 19:48:44-PST (Mon) From: pur-ee!CS-Mordred!Pucc-H.Physics.cca @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: In defense of S. Lem All of the humorous short story collections of Lem are quite worthwhile. In addition to the ones mentioned, Mortal Engines comes to mind. Is novels, on the other hand, just aren't in the same class. Don't get turned off by Solaris, read his short story collections! Charlie Allen UUCP: pur-ee!Physics:cca, purdue!Physics:cca INTERNET: cca @ pur-phy.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 3 Apr 84 15:32:47-PST (Tue) From: ihnp4!drutx!houxe!hogpc!houti!ariel!mdg @ Ucb-Vax Subject: More on S. Lem Why has no one mentioned Pirx the Pilot, or More Tales of Pirx the Pilot. I laughed my way through both of them. I don't think that my background helped that much. ( I worked on Air Force Flight Simulators, and my wife is Russian emigrant.) Both books are really collections of short stories about the adventures and mis-adventures of a young space cadet. WITH NO MEMORABLE POLITICS! I may be wrong but apparently Lem and the Soviets don't always see eye to eye but Russians that like sci-fi love him. My wife tells me that some of his works preach true socialism, but that it matters as little to the story as Heinlein's communes to Time Enough For Love. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Apr 84 8:14:32-PST (Thu) From: decvax!decwrl!rhea!amber!chabot @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: In defense of S. Lem The real problem with @i{Solaris} is the poor translation. The movie was a bit more successful at keeping the attention of the audience. But despite all the difficulties with Solaris, there is something haunting about the attempt at communicating through images evoking strong emotional responses in the humans. What do you do when presented with the ghost of someone sorely missed? What do you do when given this second chance, even though you know it's entirely fabricated? Is it evil? Do you deny it? And what sort of communication is taking place? I found @i{Solaris} as amorphous and shifting as the creature (?) itself. Lisa Chabot UUCP: ...{ decvax | allegra | ucbvax }!decwrl!rhea!amber!chabot ARPA: ...decwrl!rhea!amber!chabot@{ Berkeley | SU-Shasta } USFail: DEC, MR03-1/K20, 2 Iron Way, Marlboro, MA 01752 shadow: ...{ decvax | allegra | ucbvax }!decwrl!rhea!avalon!chabot ------------------------------ Date: 4 Apr 84 10:00:16-PST (Wed) From: hplabs!nsc!chuqui @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Bard / Many Colored Lands (revisited) Bard by Keith Tailor (Ace Fantasy $2.75) Bard is a fantasy set in the early days of Britain (about AD400) just prior to the days of Uther Pendragon and Arthur. The Bard is an irish magician/storyteller travelling England and the adventures that befall him. It is a straight fantasy, and I found it was quite well done. People who are not as interested in early day England may not like it as well. Highly recommended. (*** of 5) The Many Colored Lands by Julian May (Ballantine $2.95) A while back I posted a review of this book where I panned it and left it unfinished. At the suggestion of a few people who's taste I respect, I finally picked it up again. If you can get past the first hundred pages or so, this is quite a good book. There is way too much introductory material (the first 100 pages or so) that moves much too slowly, and doesn't really mean much to the story itself. It could have been much better if it was cut by about 50%, and since the book is 425 pages, it wouldn't have made things too short. A better alternative might have been what Chris Stasheff did with 'The Warlock in Spite of Himself (highly recommended!)' by placing the details of the history of everything in its own book (called 'Escape Velocity', also recommended). There is definitely enough material here for a book of its own, and I think it deserves its own focus. Here it gets in the way of a really good fantasy story. The many colored land is the story of three fighting factions, set back in the time of the Pliocene stage of earth. Human misfits wishing to drop out of society are allowed to travel back in time on a one way journey to this time in a attempt to find their version of paradise. When they get there, they are enslaved by an alien life form that uses them for their own purposes. This story is the story of the the start of the war between these aliens and those that would bring down their civilization and the slavery they bring to the humans. Once the story gets going, it is quite well done, and Julian (a quite nice lady, by the way) is very good at creating interesting and attractive characters that make you care about them. This is the first book in a trilogy, so the climax of the book isn't as big as it might be, but it is quite satisfying and the book ends at a very appropriate place. (*** of 5, four if you skim the first 100 pages). >From under the bar at Callahan's: Chuq Von Rospach {amd70,fortune,hplabs,menlo70}!nsc!chuqui (408) 733-2600 x242 A toast! To absent friends... {clink} ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Apr 1984 22:34 EST From: RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: turner%parsec.DEC%decwrl.ARPA@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA Cc: cc%decwrl.ARPA@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA Subject: Valentina & Cohortroutines Hmm...I thought Lauren was the definitive AI candidate...The old SFL archives mention 7 cat brains tied together with a chaosnet. "I have not now, nor have I ever been, a system monitor!" Now to rebutal: Clearly, it is true that most modern AI programs try to mimick human thought. However, the farther you wander from the goal of trying to ape natural intelligence, and toward actually doing something (like expert systems), the less they act like humans. In fact, the Valentina program was an allocation eating tapeworm, a system cracking expert system. I will grant it could be amazingly human in the ways it would try to break into systems, but it would no more develop emotions that Macsyma would suddenly try to kill you ("I tell you officer, all I did was request the derivative of X^2+3, and it shot flames at me.") Human deductive reasoning is a tricky thing, much harder than inference, yet Valentina seems to operated on nothing but. And most system cracking involves inference. My basic argument is that expert systems don't achieve self-awareness. They are limited pieces of knowledge abstraction which attempt to model a process and provide guesses. If anything, they are less likely to "come alive" than your copy of visi-calc BTW, do you have any relation to John W. Turner, a NESFAn? Perhaps there is a giant J*T tapeworm loose on the net (if you are a different JWT, I know of 4 people on the net with initials J*T). James M. Turner Software Engineer LISP Machine, Inc. ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 6 April 1984, 18:20-PST From: Craig W. Reynolds Subject: high frame rates / strobing >Date: 1 Apr 84 21:36:54-PST (Sun) >From:hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!floyd!clyde! >From: watmath!watcgl!dmmartindale @ Ucb-Vax >Subject: Re: high-speed film > ... With 60 frames/sec, motion would be a lot smoother. Does >it use a single-blade shutter in the projector? That would get rid >of the double-image effects seen when something moves rapidly. I think Showscan uses a single bladed shutter. The 60 hertz frame rate does make the motion look better, higher sampling rates allows higher frequencies in the motion with less noticable strobing. On the other hand, higher frame rates do not make the problem (temporal aliasing) go away, any more than using more pixels (higher resolution) on a display screen makes the "jaggies" (spatial aliasing) go away. It merely reduces the amplitude of the error. BTW: the correct solution to the strobing problem is to use "long" (on the order of a frame time) "time exposures" to allow the image to integrate, to properly blur on the film. Unfortunatly for real cinematographers, this means that the camera must do its close-shutter/pull- down-film/open-shutter cycle in zero time (a mechanical impossibility). And in fact, preferably the exposure periods of two sequential frames would overlap to some extent (sort of a "cross dissolve") which -- since the camera has only one frame behind the lens at a time -- is a logical impossiblity. Luckily, this is not a problem for people who make movies by computer simulation... ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 84 6:11:53-PST (Sat) From: ihnp4!drutx!houxe!hogpc!houti!ariel!vax135!floyd!cmcl2!lanl-a!un From: m-cvax!unmvax!genix!ldl @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: high speed film Trumbell was on CBS Nightwatch (?) within the last couple of weeks. He stated that the Showscan 'technique' had the following principles (to increase emotional response, etc): - High action (No shots of people getting into/out of cars, walking down alleys, etc) - Double 'brilliance' of the 'large' (for the room) screen, thus making 'daylight' look more authentic (i.e. you can see people in the room with you almost as clearly as if the lights are on) I got the impression that the approach was to pack as much action into a 20-30 minute movie as you'd have in a normal 90-120 minute movie, and not so much on the fact that the film was going so much faster. The faster 'sprocket' rate allowed for better 'realism' on the brighter lighting, but otherwise wasn't supposedly as important as the content. The MAIN effect was derived from the telling of the story. He went on to say that it will be impossible to expect the Showscan technology to end up in regular theaters due to the extremely high prices of the new technology. (The technology of 95% -- his number -- of the theaters is the same as it was when the studios were forced to 'divest' the theaters in the 1950's(?date?) Hmm, wonder what this means for the Bell companies?) He lamented the fact that many of the 'Cinerama' theaters (of the 60's) had been 'chopped up' into smaller 35mm theaters; meaning that even the 'Cinerama' technology wasn't around (much) anymore. I called the local Showbiz Pizza and they didn't know anything about the Showscan idea. Hmm, maybe I should load up the family and visit my wife's sister (near Dallas). Spoken: Larry Landis USnail: 5201 Sooner Trail NW Albuquerque, NM 87120 MaBell: (505)-898-9666 USA UUCP: {ucbvax,gatech,parsec}!unmvax!genix!ldl ------------------------------ Date: 2 Apr 84 13:07:33-PST (Mon) From: harpo!eagle!mhuxl!abnjh!cbspt005 @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: "Showscan" / high frame rate film projection The first Showscan theatre is now open in Dallas with a 30 minute presentation for $3.00. Three additional theatres are to open shortly (Huntsville, AL, somewhere in Virginia, and California). These theatres are adjacent to some sort of large pizza restaurants. If the idea clicks at the boxoffice, then we can look forward to seeing more Showscan venues and more Showscan films. -Eric Carter AT&T-IS Morristown, NJ abnjh!cbspt005 ------------------------------ Date: 7 Apr 84 12:28:48 EST From: DELTUVIA@RU-GREEN.ARPA Subject: Spock didnt have to die... I was watching ST II again the other day, and a method of saving the Enterprise without Spock's death occured to me. Kirk wanted to beam aboard Reliant and shut off the machine, but David said it couldn't be shut off. -Remember the ST TV episode with 'Jack the Ripper'? They got rid of him by beaming him out at 'maximum dispersion' so that he was disin- tegrated. Why couldn't they do that to Genesis?? Beam it aboard, then out into the nebula, disintegrated?? Did Captain Spock die in vain? -John Deltuvia ------------------------------ Date: 2 Apr 84 13:45:24-PST (Mon) From: ihnp4!drutx!houxe!45223wc @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Princess Who? In Star Wars, (the original SW movie), right at the beginning when the princess' ship is under attack, C3PO says something like 'The princess will never get out of this one O.K.' , but later when Luke sees part of the video message of the princess and asks C3PO who that is, C3PO says he doesn't know, but that he thinks she was a passenger on the ship. So does C3PO know her or not? - Bill (and Mary) Cambre ATTISL 02272 houxe!45223wc ------------------------------ Date: 2 Apr 84 13:45:55-PST (Mon) From: ihnp4!drutx!houxe!45223wc @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Speed of Death Star Why is it in Star Wars, (the original), the death star take 30 minutes to go half way around one little planet. It certainly wouldn't be able to get around the galaxy very well at that slow speed. If you say it goes everywhere by jumping through hyperspace, doesn't it seem odd that they can make it do that, but can't get it to go any faster at sub-light speeds? As a side note, with all that power why spend a half hour going around a planet while under attack, why not just blow the planet to bits, then blow the rebel base on the moon to bits, too? - Bill Cambre ATTISL 02272 houxe!45223wc ------------------------------ Date: 2 Apr 84 15:35:39-PST (Mon) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!flinn @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Speed of Death Star Why it took half an hour to go around the planet - I just presumed that the Death Star was in orbit around the planet, in which case its velocity would depend on the mass of the planet and its altitude. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 10-Apr SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #60 *** EOOH *** Date: 10 Apr 84 1950-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #60 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 10 Apr 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 60 Today's Topics: Books - May & May 1984 Analog & Author Request Answered, Films - Upcoming Movies (3 msgs) & Star Wars (9 msgs), Miscellaneous - Psychic Powers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 9 Apr 84 18:48:14 est From: romkey@mit-borax (John L. Romkey) Subject: The Many Colored Land (Julian May), etc. After reading something favorable in sf-lovers about the first book, I've managed to read the whole series. It turns out there are four: The Many Colored Land The Golden Torc The Nonborn King and The Adversary. I got an imported copy of The Adversary a few days ago. If you like the post-introduction part of TMCL, you should enjoy the other three books. They're fun to read and interesting, too. There was a little blurb at the end of The Adversary mentioning a trilogy which takes place before TMCL (which means it takes place a little under 6 million years after most of the action). There were also a couple of threads in the last book which could be expanded upon. I hope the new books are out soon! - John Romkey romkey@mit-borax ------------------------------ Date: 5 Apr 84 17:25:42-PST (Thu) From: decvax!mcnc!philabs!aecom!yudelson @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: May 1984 *Analog* < Nuclear flames > Date: Wed, 28-Mar-84 00:04:26 EST > I hereby nominate the editorial staff of *Analog* magazine, and > the two authors of the story "Valentina" (my copy is at home, > otherwise I would name names; I *had* regarded both of them > highly) for the uncoveted > [1632 bytes deleted] OF THE YEAR AWARD in the > category of uncalled-for `ethnic' slurring. > Their crime, for those of you fortunate enough not to have read > the article, is protraying all "hackers" as (1) self-centered, (2) > anti- social, (3) criminal, (4) ignorant of hygiene, (5) having > numerous personality defects, and undoubtably several other > dubious traits I have been too incised to notice. > It was, pure and simple, a gratuitous groin kick at "hackers." > Finally, I have included "hackers" in quotes because neither the > authors or editors seem to understand what a hacker is, even > though they used the term quite liberally.... > Finally, I should mention that the [85 bytes deleted] lawyer was > also portrayed in highly undesirable tones. As in, he likes > little girls, enjoys power trips, has no self-confidence behind a > Machivelli exterior, > so, does anyone else feel the same way I do? Does anyone have the > phone number of *Analog*'s editor? I don't feel like a hate > letter, I want a real live "responible" person on the other end to > shout at! > bruce giles I forwarded this letter to Shelly Frier, the assistant editor of Analog. She pointed out that one of the authors in a computer programmer. The other is a lawyer. I haven't seen the May issue yet, so I can't comment on the story, but I remember that Stan Schmidt, the editor, has written in the past about readers assuming that since the villain in the story is Jewish or Italian or a hacker, the authors and editors think that all Jews or Italians or hackers are wicked people who are self-centered, criminal, anti-social deviants who don't bathe regularly. Actually, from your logic, you would be even more offended if the criminals were portrayed as responsible graduate students who had good hygene. That would imply that you were criminal--a far more difficult accusation to disprove than (you are a criminal && you have bad hygene). Actually, from my experience as editor of a (non-s.f.) magazine, I would make all my villains readers who can't read straight and then write in nasty letters. Larry Yudelson "Beware the Frumiest Bandersnatch!" philabs!aecom!yudelson p.s. The views expressed are my own. They are not (necessarily) the views of Shelly Frier, Stan Schmidt, the secretaries in the Analog office, Davis Publications, or even the AECOM computer center. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Apr 84 20:52:58-PST (Thu) From: decvax!decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian @ Ucb-Vax Subject: re: here's the title, who's the author? To Steven A. Swernofsky: (1) ROADSIDE PICNIC is by Arkady & Boris Strugatsky. (2) The "Pelbar Cycle" is by Paul O. Williams [incidentally, a sixth book in the series is due out about the end of May]. (3) THE SYNDIC is by C. M. Kornbluth. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard) <"Bibliography is UUCP: (decvax!decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian) my business"> ARPA: (decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian@Shasta) ------------------------------ Date: 2 Apr 84 12:55:58-PST (Mon) From: ihnp4!houxm!mhuxl!abnjh!cbspt005 @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: MOVIE RELEASE SCHEDULE Conan II has been retitled 'CONAN THE DESTROYER', stars Arnold Schwarzenegger (of course), Wilt Chamberlain and Grace Jones(!) and opens July 6. Supergirl starring Faye Dunaway, Peter O'Toole, Mia Farrow and introducing Helen Slater in the title role has been pushed back a week to July 13. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Apr 1984 22:45:55 PST Subject: Time Bandits Sequel and FireStarter From: Alan R. Katz According to the May issue of Moviegoer magazine (freebee mag): George Orwell meets Monty Python occurs in Terry Gilliam's new film, "Brazil." This film is supposedly the second film in the Time Bandits trilogy. It is set in a society ruled by the Ministry of Information, a Big Brother style bureaucracy which supposedly exists in Christmas, 1984 (which is when the film is scheduled for release). "Brazil" stars Michael Palin, Ian Holm, Katherine Helmond, and a cameo by Robert De Niro. In true Pythonesque fashion, the film has nothing to do with South America. Also, Stephen King's Firestarter (which is really more of a science fiction novel than horror) is being made into a movie, the lead role is being played by Drew Barrymore. It is currently being filmed. Alan ------------------------------ Date: 9 Apr 84 10:11:45 EST From: Ed Blanchett Subject: Movie: Lord of the Rings, Part II Has anyone heard about what's become of the sequel to The Lord of the Rings movie? I heard some rumors about a year ago that there was some work done on it and that it was to be released soon, yet they seemed to have died (along with any prospect of the sequel). Quite a pity, the first one looked so promising... "Oh, Master Frodo, don't let him turn me into something unnatural!" -Ed Blanchett ------------------------------ Date: 2 Apr 84 22:05:02-PST (Mon) From: ihnp4!inuxc!iuvax!notes @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Speed of Death Star It is generally not a good idea to "blow to bits" the object around which you are in close orbit. The Death Star kept a good distance from Organa, you recall. But they were actually in orbit around the Rebel Base's primary. Also, presumably, maneuver drive is Newtonian, while interstellar drive isn't. There is a substantial technology difference between them. Just because you can go fast in one mode doesn't mean you can go fast in another. -- Allan Pratt ...ihnp4!inuxc!iuvax!apratt ------------------------------ Date: 3 Apr 84 7:18:21-PST (Tue) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!brl-vgr!ron @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Speed of Death Star Alderaan. Calling it Organa is like calling Great Britain "Tudor". ------------------------------ Date: 3 Apr 84 7:33:51-PST (Tue) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!rocksvax!sunybcs!hobbit @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Princess Who? It is possible that C3PO knew that Leia was aboard without having met her. -The Parker Hobbit a.k.a. Thomas R. Pellitieri UUCP: {allegra, seismo}!rochester!rocksvax!sunybcs!hobbit decvax!watmath!sunybcs!hobbit ARPA & CSNET: hobbit.buffalo@rand-relay ------------------------------ Date: 4 Apr 84 5:49:54-PST (Wed) From: ihnp4!houxm!houxz!disc @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Force Field My impression is that the previous writer (Allan Pratt?) implied the reason the force field must be "projected" was some law of physics, not the particular technology. Surely we must assume that physical laws are the same everywhere and everywhen (at least in our universe...), otherwise this whole discussion is pointless. So if Kirk et al can do it, the Empire can as well. SJBerry ------------------------------ Date: 3 Apr 84 22:43:27-PST (Tue) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!smu!clardy @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Endor and the Death Star How about this: The shield generator was the first thing built. To protect the new Death Star while under construction. As to why the generator wasn't built in space in the first place, well... ------------------------------ Date: 5 Apr 84 19:13:34-PST (Thu) From: hplabs!intelca!proper!dual!fair @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Endor and the Death Star From: disc@houxz.UUCP (S.BERRY) Date: Fri, 30-Mar-84 07:13:49 PST I don't recall the starship Enterprise ever having to drag a planet everywhere they go in order to use their deflector shields... SJBerry Clearly, the Federation has better shield technology. Or the death star power system was not yet up to powering the thing & the planet zapper... Erik E. Fair dual!fair@Berkeley.ARPA {ihnp4,ucbvax,cbosgd,decwrl,amd70,fortune,zehntel}!dual!fair Dual Systems Corporation, Berkeley, California ------------------------------ Date: 5 Apr 84 19:22:06-PST (Thu) From: hplabs!intelca!proper!dual!fair @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Speed of Death Star - (nf) Larry Niven's Known Space series has a Hyperspace, and Hyperdrive, and there is the small problem with it: You can't use it within some arbitrary distance of ANY gravity well. It is possible that the Hyperdrive in the SW Universe has the same limitation. This would tend to explain some of the time that Han Solo took to `make the jump to lightspeed' in SW:ANH after leaving Mos Eisley in a hurry, pursued by Imperial Cruisers. Erik E. Fair dual!fair@Berkeley.ARPA {ihnp4,ucbvax,cbosgd,decwrl,amd70,fortune,zehntel}!dual!fair Dual Systems Corporation, Berkeley, California ------------------------------ Date: 5 Apr 84 11:00:49-PST (Thu) From: harpo!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!fpa @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Obi-wans brother? What movie did I miss that one in. Who is Owen Lars? Excuse my ignorance, but I don't remember. Please enlighten me. (and others, I presume) I've only seen The Empire Strikes Back once, so maybe that's it. I agree with Hutch about Princess Who? I think c3po knew the Princess well, and was protecting the rebel alliance by belittling the importance of the hologram. - Fred P. Andresen (fpa@cvl) ------------------------------ Date: 9 Apr 84 17:43:36 PST (Monday) From: Morrill.PA@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: Princess Who? I read the book "Skywalking, The Life and Films of George Lucas" in which Lucas explains that C3P0 is programmed for security. Therefore, even though C3P0 may act dumb (uninformed) at times, it is just an act. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Apr 1984 1139-EST From: John Redford Subject: psychic powers It sounds like "The Tomorrow People" makes the same mistake that a lot of authors do in visualizing what a superior being would be like. They seem to think that some form of psychic powers are the next step up. Stapledon's Odd John had them, many of Heinlein's heros have them, and even ET can levitate rubber balls. I actually heard some movie reviewer saying that that scene proved that ET had an Einstein-class intellect. These people are confused about what makes humanity different from the other animals. Let's look at some of the common psychic abilities. Telekinesis, the ability to move objects at a distance, would be a nice thing to have. No more getting up from your chair to turn off the stereo. But it's actually just an extension of your hands. Instead of having to manipulate things with these crude fingers you would handle them directly with your mind. Why is that likely to be a better way to do things? If you want to lift heavy objects, use a forklift. If you want to move things at a distance, use a piece of string. Do you think that you would be more dextrous if there weren't these clumsy nerve cables between you and the piano? Your central nervous system is full of unconscious processing to help you move your muscles. If you had to consciously think of each step involved you would be unable to lift the lid of the keyboard, much less play Bach sonatas. In a similar way, teleportation is an extension of your feet. Instead of walking somewhere you fly or Jaunt (to use Bester's term). Clairvoyance is an extension of your eyes. You can see things which are otherwise hidden. Microscopes let you do that too, though. Germanium detectors let you see in the infrared, and photographic plates in the Xrays. This amazing power of clairvoyance lets you do rather less than can already be done with commonly available technology. In any case, hands, feet and eyes are not what has brought us to where we are. Other animals have the same or better (well, maybe not quite in the case of hands. Man is the only animal that juggles). The main reason that we are not just another minor primate is that we have the ability to communicate and cooperate and the ability to learn. There's only one psychic ability that would affect that, and so it's the only one that I think would be worthwhile. That's telepathy. Telepathy is an extension of the power of speech, and speech is mainly what makes us human. Just having a voice provides an incredible increase in communication bandwidth between individuals. The direction-indicating dance of the honey bee contains perhaps a couple of bits per second of information whereas the human voice contains hundreds or perhaps thousands of bits per second (Modern voice compression techniques can get it down to about a thousand bps with reasonable fidelity). Extend that bandwidth again to where people can send whole images to one another (which takes hundreds of thousands of bits per second) instead of just words and you've got a qualitative change in the species. There's one other aspect of telepathy that would cause real changes in people. Direct mind to mind communication could eliminate the ability to lie. Compare the social impact of that with the effect of being able to remotely lift rubber balls! John Redford VLSI @ Market ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 11-Apr SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #61 *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Apr 84 1646-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #61 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 11 Apr 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 61 Today's Topics: Books - Hubbard & Analog (2 msgs) & Book Request, Films - Tarzan & Star Wars (5 msgs), Miscellaneous - FTL & Laws of Physics & Psychic Powers & A Quote ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 131351.62.735 IDT Reply-to: POSTMASTER.IGPU-TERRA-STATION.IGPU@RUTGERS.ARPA Cc: Enforcement@IGPU-TERRA-STATION.TERRA.SECTOR2.IGPU From: Legal-affairs@IGPU-TERRA-STATION.TERRA.SECTOR2.IGPU Subject: Messages relating to L. Ron Hubbard on SF-LOVERS mailing list As you may know, it is a violation of the tarriffs of the IGPU to send libelous material through the Intergalactic mails. We believe that similar laws also exist for the more primitive media used to distribute SF-LOVERS on its planet of origin. On several occasions recently, we have observed assertions concerning the motives of one L. Ron Hubbard. For reference, I include representative samples: Hubbard was quoted, once, long before he started the scientology thing, as saying (at an SF convention, I believe) And whether or not he really said it, ... is atttributed to him. He also suckered his friend, ... I can't remember where I read it, but Hubbard is supposed to have said at some con, We have no objections to correspondents expressing half-baked ideas about the literary merits of various works. However we have strong objections to the use of our facilities for distributing personal attacks based upon vague rumors. This is a clear violation of section II.20.16 of the Universal Canons of Behavior upon which our organization is based. I quote: "You shall not accuse anyone falsely." Previous decisions by the Intergalactic Mediation Service are very clear on this point: An accusation may be considered to be false if the person making it has no proof of it. The inclusion of qualifiers such as "supposed to have said" is not a defense. Many of the most vicious rumors are couched in language such as this. The fact that you do not approve of someone's viewpoint is not a defense either. Fairness is required most when dealing with someone of whom you do not approve. We hereby advise, warn, and admonish you that any further messages of this sort, directed against Mr. Hubbard, or any other being, will be forwarded to our Enforcement Bureau for immediate action. - Legal affairs officer Terra Station Intergalactic Postal Union ------------------------------ Date: 6 Apr 84 15:51:07-PST (Fri) From: decvax!mcnc!duke!ucf-cs!giles @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: May 1984 *Analog* < Nuclear flames After I cooled down somewhat (to put it mildly), I had grabbed the previous month's issue and discovered exactly what you mentioned: the authors were a lawyer and a computer scientist. Furthermore, I have read *Analog* for a number years, and am aware of their views on sterotyping. However, I feel that the situation concerning "hackers" falls into an entirely different category. *I* personally perceive the term "hacker" as being a sterotype. But I am also aware that many *others* do not perceive the word as a sterotype. Instead, it is new expression which does not yet have a universal meaning. When I am called a "hacker" by fellow graduate students at UCF, I take it as a compliment. In this environment it implies I have a strong interest in computers. However, when a local reporter interviewed me as a "hacker", she was looking for computer criminals. The possibility of my interest in computers being purely `scientific' did not appear to have occured to her. So, I would have WELCOMED the malevolent "hackers" in the story being well-groomed, polite, al nauseam. It would have given the term some depth. After all, if not "hackers" are ill-groomed, perhaps not all "hackers" are out to destroy the world. The other point (which got buried) was that there was a logical inconsistency with having the male hacker dress/act in the manner he did. I can not conceive of any highly prestigious firm employing people who meet their clients dressed like they just crawled out of a sewer. How would you feel if you went to a car dealership and was greated by someone with a 3-day beard and filthy sweatclothes, with no one else in site. (That was a typo (but a good one)... it should be `in sight'). Would you feel like parting with your hard-earned cash then? The female hacker and the lawyer were also offensive to me, but to a large extent that was triggered by the anger I felt concerning the male hacker. When I stop a story in the middle, and ask myself if (*) has any relevance to the story, and it still wonder why the author(s) included (*) by the time I finish the story; then I strongly believe the author(s) should have left it out. As I mentioned in the original article, I felt that the characters' shortcomings were gratuitous, and this was the criteria I used. I may have entirely misread the story, but I know that in the approximately 10 years that I have been reading *Analog*, none have made me as furious over what seemed to be meaningless reasons. ave discordia going bump in the night ... bruce giles decvax!ucf-cs!giles university of central florida giles.ucf-cs@Rand-Relay orlando, florida 32816 ------------------------------ Date: 11 Apr 84 09:35:58 PST (Wednesday) From: Ayers.PA@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Analog Magazine versus Physics Dear flamer on the May *Analog* for the use of ethnic stereotypes: I thought that the reply in V9#60 on steretypes was quite to the point. You should have complained about the ignorance of the laws of physics in the April (perhaps March -- copies not here) issue! Now there was a disgrace for a "science fact and fiction" magazine! The main story-line required the group of people inside an adrift, non-rotating, satellite to make it face the other way. Someone figures out that he can run around the inside of the satellite. They do this, crawling, then running, and then they stop, LEAVING THE SATELLITE WITH A NET ROTATIONAL VELOCITY. So much for the recent net articles about Oberth wheels. So much for the conservation of angular momentum. So much for the physics talents of the Analog editors. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Apr 84 7:41:35-PST (Fri) From: decvax!dartvax!kenv @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Who wrote the MED series? Could someone please refresh my memory and tell me who the author of the MED series is? Thanks in advance. Ken Varnum (decvax!dartvax!kenv) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Apr 84 17:07:41 EST From: Daniel Dern Subject: NEVER GO APE (Greystoke -- *NON-SPOILER*) To: movies@BBN-UNIX I highly recommend the new "tarzan" movie GREYSTOKE, as both a movie-goer and an sf lovers. A lot of money was spent, successfully -- a surprising feat. I'm not going to bother going into long detail here. Good color/images/composition, etc. Good detail. Adequate acting. Lovely sets and locales. I was reminded at times of THE BLACK STALLION, for the long non-verbal sequences, and NEVER CRY WOLF, for the human:non-human and non-human:non-human interactions. As a science fiction person of long addiction, I did NOT find myself at any point offended by unreasonable stupidities a la SPACE:1999, CONAN THE BARBARIAN, etc. Rather, it had that undefinable essence shared by STAR TREK II, THE LAST UNICORN (otherwise problematic, I admit) of being done by people who understood the subject matter and cared about it enought to do it well. The movie departs markedly from the original TARZAN book. I think this was a wise move. (I have the feeling this is somehow based on Phillip Jose Farmer's "biography" of "the man the Tarzan books were based on". They never call him Tarzan, by the way.) Lots of humorous touches throughout, clearly deliberate. NOTE: I attended with an 11-year old girl. She was somewhat troubled by the realism of the bloodier ape-killing sequences -- on a humanitarian, queasy basis, apparantly, as she has sat through ROCKY III, or FRIDAY THE 17th, or whatever, without comparable discomfort. So it is not necessarily for children of all ages. But it is an honest film, given that -- there is no gratuitious sex or violence, and it is clear that the violent stuff is painful and not pleasant to the violentee. By the way, those big greyish looking critters tromping around the Greystoke castle are Scottish deerhounds, and the smaller ones appear to be puppies of same. Daniel Dern ------------------------------ Date: 6 Apr 84 8:31:48-PST (Fri) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!ut-sally!ut-ngp!cmaz504 @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Obi-wans brother? You didn't miss anything. No where in the movies do they tell you that Lars was Obi Wan's brother. That little bit of information came out in the novelization of Return of the Jedi and there's really no excuse for it. The question should be: Why is it in science fiction movies lately you have to buy the book to fully appreciate what went on on the screen? I can think of several examples. Maybe 2001 set a bad example. Steve Alexander cmaz504 at ut-ngp ------------------------------ Date: 6 Apr 84 9:21:04-PST (Fri) From: decvax!mcnc!akgua!psuvax!kucharic @ Ucb-Vax Subject: re: princess who? Princess who? I agree with all the previous suggestions about C3PO trying to protect the princess and the rebelion, but consider this: Perhaps C3PO knew he was on the Princess' ship, but didn't know who the princess was or what she looked like. This would explain the comment about the ship, and why he didn't know the vision in the hologram. It's only a suggestion.... Frank Kucharik The Pennsylvania State University (..allegra!psuvax!kucharic) ------------------------------ Date: 11 Apr 1984 09:48 EST (Wed) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" Subject: Princess Who? It's not Princess Who, it's Doctor Who (sorry). ------------------------------ Date: 11 Apr 84 11:28:03 EST (Wednesday) Subject: Re: Death Star shields... From: Chris Heiny Deja vu is the feeling that you've been somewhere, done something, or seen someone before, even though you are supposedly experiencing it for the first time.... About a year ago, there was a discussion about why the shield generator was on the ground as opposed to the Death Star. The following opinions were advanced: (1) The Imperial engineers are a bunch of ninnies. (2) The shield also acts to hold the Death Star in an artificially low gesynchronous orbit so the construction can be more easily gotten to (it's closer to the planet/moon). (3) The Imperial engineers are a bunch of dopes. (4) It enables you to install the shields/drives on the Death Star at leisure, rather than first thing. (5) The Imperial engineers are a bunch of cavemen. (6) It was necessary for the plot. Any way, the Enterprise and the Death Star are not necessarily from the same Universe (SW doesn't have transporters either...) Chris Deja vu is the feeling that you've been somewhere, done something, or seen someone before, even though you are supposedly experiencing it for the first time.... About a year ago, there was a discussion about why the shield generator was on the ground as opposed to the Death Star. The following opinions were advanced: (1) The Imperial engineers are a bunch of ninnies. (2) The shield also acts to .... ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 11 Apr 1984 10:44-PST Subject: Re: Princess Who? From: christe@Rand-Unix C3PO knows all about the princess, the Rebellion, and Captain Antilles, by the time the 'droids are sold to Luke's Uncle Owen Lars. He mentions Antilles by name, and he sees R2D2 and the princess together during the battle when she is giving R2 his mission. C3PO lacks a certain amount of discretion in the scene in question. Luke, cleaning up R2D2, remarks on the amount of "carbon-scoring" on R2D2's body, and C3PO replies that he is not surprised, given what the 'droids have been through in the Rebellion. Luke swings around to C3PO and says "You were in the Rebellion?", but before C3PO can reply, R2D2 gives a long warning whistle. Presumably he is telling C3PO to shut up, because C3PO then makes the excuse that he doesn't know much and isn't any good at telling stories (which is totally false; he is the one who tells the Ewoks at length about the Rebellion and Luke in "Return of the Jedi"). You gotta listen to what R2D2 says. I am convinced that the crooning whistle he gives when entering the long desert canyon (in "Star Wars", just before the jawas get him) is "I have a bad feeling about this". --Christe ------------------------------ Date: 9 Apr 84 2149 EST (Monday) From: Victor.Milenkovic@CMU-CS-A.ARPA Subject: FTL and Time Travel Challenge Can anyone tell me how I could use a FTL ship to travel back to 1950 or in any way cause a paradox? I have tried playing with light cones and transformations, but I can't see how to do it. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Apr 84 2:30:12-PST (Fri) From: decvax!vortex!lauren @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Laws of Physics "E=MC^2 may only be a local phenomenon." -- Albert Einstein --Lauren-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 84 23:33:27 PST From: Peter Reiher Subject: Re: psychic powers I don't agree that all psychic powers but telepathy need be mere parlor tricks. Effective teleportation, for instance, would have an enormous impact on society, as Bester demonstrated in "The Demolished Man". Consider the problem of incarcerating teleporters. Also consider the impact on all transportation industries. What is the meaning of a national boundary when you cannot prevent anyone from crossing it at will, and without even the ability to detect them? Talk about illegal aliens! If every person in third world countries could teleport, think of the ramifications for industrialized countries. They would have to do something to stop it, and the only truly effective means would be to make their states so regularized that they could immediately and ruthlessly deal with unwanted visitors, or to make the potential immigrants want to stay at home, by improving conditions there. How do you prevent burglaries and other intrusions into private/security areas? This only scratches the surface of what can be done with a transportation medium which does not leave the subject in recognizable form as he goes from here to there, particularly if no equipment is needed. By the way, I do agree that it is hogwash to assume that psychic powers necessarily make for better people. Telepathy might be an exception here, as seeing another's thoughts may make one more sensitive to others needs; but just because you can make little balls float around the room doesn't mean that you're nice. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 11 Apr 1984 06:07:13-PST From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Brendan E. Boelke) Subject: "Once is a(n) ..." I'm not sure which came first (I have neither movie or album here in my office for reference), but Arlo Guthrie in "Alice's Restaurant" stated that if (doubt if quote is exact) If one person does, they'll call him crazy (and haul him away) If two people do it, they'll call them both crazy (and haul them away), But if THREE people do it, they'll call it a MOVEMENT! /BEB GIGI::BRENDAN ECG.BEB@MARKET ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 16-Apr SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #62 *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Apr 84 1247-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #62 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 16 Apr 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 62 Today's Topics: Administrivia Books - Adams & Hubbard & MacAvoy & May (2 msgs) & Analog (4 msgs) & Med Series (2 msgs) & Author Request, Films - Time Bandits & Star Wars (7 msgs), Television - The Tomorrow People, Miscellaneous - A Plea for HHGttN ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 Apr 84 11:23:55 EST From: Saul Subject: Administrivia As some of you may already be aware, the SF-LOVERS archives at SRI-CSL were lost due to an unfortunate set of circumstances. I would like to put out an appeal to anyone out there who may have copies of the archives before V7 to get in touch with me. I hope these issues are not irretrievably lost. Saul ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 6 Apr 1984 18:50:00-PST From: horovitz%yoda.DEC%decwrl.ARPA@csnet-relay.ARPA Subject: WHAT IS THE MEANING OF LIFF???? yes Douglas Adams fans, his new book The Meaning of Liff is in the stores in hardcover for $7.95 . He co-wrote this book with an author I can't remember. n.l.h. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Apr 84 13:26:00-PST (Mon) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: L. Ron Hubbard Charles Platt's "interview"* with L. Ron gives fair evidence that the old boy is still with us. Platt was convinced. Seems like I heard a rumor that LRH was going to disinherit his son or some such for starting the "Hubbard's dead" thing, too. * In *Dream Makers II* Wombat ihnp4!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat ------------------------------ Date: Mon 9 Apr 84 18:35:06-PST From: Laurence R Brothers Subject: Damiano's Lute. I am now reading Damiano's Lute, the second in a trilogy by R.A. MacAvoy, author of Tea With the Black Dragon. It's about a lutist named Damiano, living in Renaissance Italy. He's a "witch", and his lute instructor is the Archangel Raphael. Don't go away! There is a reasonable plot, and though Damiano is still a bit of a simp, the writing is well done, and the characters have some depth. If you read her first novel and found it interesting but lacking literary depth, as I did, you will be pleasantly surprised by the Damiano trilogy. If MacAvoy can continue to improve her prose at this rate, she'll be one of the most noted writers of the coming few years. I have read so little that was really well done this year, that at present she has my Hugo vote. -Laurence ------------------------------ Date: 18 Apr 84 18:27:00-EST (Wed) From: hplabs!hp-pcd!hpfcla!hp-dcde!jack @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Orphaned Response orstcs!nathan says: Julian May's gender is male. Julian May's sex is (I am told) undeniably female. If you can't figure out the difference, go back to grammar school. My Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary (1979) lists "SEX" as the first definition of "gender". I'm sure that Nathan has some subtle distinction in mind, but if you don't tell us, Nathan, what good have you done? And keep the insults ("go back to grammar school") to yourself, please. -Jack Applin (hplabs!hp-dcd!jack) ------------------------------ Date: Mon 9 Apr 84 18:35:06-PST From: Laurence R Brothers Subject: Many-Colored Land. The Many-Colored-Land series is in fact a tetralogy; The Adversary is the fourth book. The Adversary has not yet come out in American paperback, but it is available at bookstores that carry those Pan editions. I found the ending to be somewhat of a let-down after expecting some incredible tieing up of loose ends, but the action is still good. -Laurence ------------------------------ Date: 11 Apr 84 16:38:04 PST (Wednesday) From: GMeredith.es@Xerox.ARPA Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #61 May 1984 *Analog* < Nuclear flames The story in question reads like juvenile material in that it requires a MAJOR suspension of disbelief if for no other reason (character development, etc.). The authors would have the reader buy a subculture of brilliant 'hackers' who could accomplish any miracle if they just felt like putting down their games for a while or did not compete within their group, both of which are strictly for ego. This leads to the idea that full AI is actually just a minor project and once produced by one 'hacker' may be understood a la Gestalt by another 'hacker'. Interesting flight of fantasy, perhaps, but not easy to swallow as adult fiction. Guy ------------------------------ Date: 12 Apr 84 11:39:53 EST From: Don Provan@CMU-CS-A Subject: re: hackers this certainly isn't the right place for this argument, but the word hacker was not originally complementary and some people (like me) don't see why it should be. programming is like whittling. the guy who whittles by slashing at a two-by-four with a hatchet is a hacker. the phrase "hack writer" comes to mind. they program all night because it takes them that long to get the job done. and everything they write looks like it was written by somebody who had been awake for 48 hours. they never bother to learn to program, they just program. most are more interested in pulling pranks and otherwise irriting people than doing any useful programming. THAT's a hacker, and just because the word's gotten a lot of press doesn't make it any better. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Apr 84 9:35:07-PST (Tue) From: harpo!ulysses!mhuxl!abnjh!mlh @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: May 1984 *Analog* < Nuclear flames I read and enjoyed "Valentina". The characters were both interesting and entertaining. Use of hackers and a lawyer as criminals and warped personalities in no way indicates that all hackers and lawyers are such. I see no reason for Giles to be offended; he apparantly didn't understand the story. I've known both lawyers and hackers like the characters, but that doesn't mean I see them all that way. Good story! Mike Holt abnjh!mlh ------------------------------ From: duntemann.wbst@Xerox.ARPA Date: 12 Apr 84 15:11:51 EST Subject: rip analog lordy, you folks ought to know better than to get bent out of shape by anything you read in analog. i gave it up for lost when bova published "minotaur in a mushroom maze" seven or eight years ago. as long as a tale feels right to stanley, he'll print it. the satellite spinup was a kind of a surprise, tho... and as for hackers...well, consider that the media needs a word for "computer criminal." the press has pretty much decided on "hacker," and the press will have its way. after all, the press decided that three mile island was a "disaster" even though nobody got hurt, and decided that nuclear power was too dangerous to develop, even though it's never probably injured anyone. the word "hacker" will quickly drop out of legitimate use, just as "gay" vanished from use (as in "lighthearted") twelve or fifteen years ago. for a replacement word i recommend "mxyptlk," which was a mischievous sprite in old superman mags. reporters lack sufficient smarts to spell anything that subtle. the cost of a free press is..a free press. jeff duntemann duntemann.wbst@xerox ------------------------------ Date: 9 Apr 84 23:16:36-PST (Mon) From: decvax!mcnc!ncsu!ncrcae!usceast!ted @ Ucb-Vax Subject: re Med series char *foo; Ken, If you mean the med series with Calhoun and Murgatoyd (sp?) the tormal -- that was Murray Leinster. If you mean the series featuring Sector General hospital -- that was James White If you mean the series featuring Hospital Earth (and the Black Doctors of pathology etc) -- that was Alan E. Nourse. Ted Nolan usceast!ted 6536 Brookside Circle Columbia, SC 29206 (feather the rast!) ------------------------------ Date: 13 Apr 84 12:38:35 EST From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA Subject: The Med Series The Med Series was written by Murray Leinster, author of many classics such as the short-story "First Contact". The Med Series consists of three books, and were recently re-issued (about a year or so ago) by (I think) Ace Books for about $2.95 for all three in one volume. Frederick Paul Kiesche III ------------------------------ Date: 6 Apr 84 21:38:24-PST (Fri) From: harpo!ulysses!mhuxl!mhuxr!sbg @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Have Title - Need Author Does anyone know who wrote, "The Last Batter is Out"? This is a very amusing novel about baseball in the 21st Century. I'd really like to read this one again. Thanks in advance. ------------------------------ Date: Wed 11 Apr 84 21:23:48-EST From: JACOB@CMU-CS-C.ARPA Subject: Time Bandits In a recent digest, someone commented about the "Time Bandits" trilogy. Say what? Jacob Butcher, deep within the Zone ------------------------------ Date: 9 Apr 84 0:44:33-PST (Mon) From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!shark!hutch @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Obi-wans brother? Sorry to mystify them what ain't completely Star Warped. Owen Lars is Luke's Uncle Owen. Uncle Owen who raised him on Tatooine. This was revealed in the book version of Retread of the Jedi. Hutch ------------------------------ Date: 10 Apr 84 13:12:35-PST (Tue) From: hplabs!tektronix!teklds!hercules!archiel @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Obi-wans brother? I think that Obi-Wan and Owen are brothers, and Darth/Anakin and Luke's aunt (Owen's wife) are brother and sister. This would not make Obi-wan Luke's uncle, just his uncle's brother. I'm not very sure about all this, however. Could somebody who has read the book please try and clean this up? Thanks in advance. Archie Lachner Logic Design Systems Division Tektronix, Inc. uucp: {ucbvax,decvax,pur-ee,cbosg,ihnss}!tektronix!teklds!archiel CSnet: archiel@tek ARPAnet: archiel.tek@csnet-relay ------------------------------ Date: 9 Apr 84 10:59:49-PST (Mon) From: harpo!ulysses!mhuxl!mhuxv!mwh @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Obi-wans brother? If Owen Lars is Obi-wans brother then is Luke Obi-wans nephew because Luke calls Owen "Uncle Owen"? ------------------------------ Date: 9 Apr 84 19:44:59-PST (Mon) From: harpo!infopro!dave @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Obi-wans brother? I think someone out there is approaching the truth of the matter. If Owen Lars was Luke's uncle, he was therefore the brother of Luke's father, and therefore of Darth Vader. If Obi-Wan was also Owen's brother, then Obi-Wan was ALSO Darth's brother, and also therefore Luke's uncle. I think Owen was Darth-Anakin's brother, PERIOD, and there was no family connection with Obi-Wan. Proofreaders have been known to make mistakes, you know... "That's the biz, sweetheart..." Dave Fiedler {harpo,astrovax,philabs}!infopro!dave ------------------------------ Date: 11 Apr 84 9:03:30-PST (Wed) From: hplabs!tektronix!teklds!hercules!archiel @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Obi-wans brother? It is not necessary for Owen to be Darth's brother to be Luke's uncle. I seem to remember something in the film that indicated that Luke's father was his Aunt Berue's brother (something in the breakfast-table dialog between Owen and Berue). I'm not sure this is the case, but the possibility is being overlooked by others discussing this matter. Owen could be Luke's uncle by marriage only and not by blood. Archie Lachner Logic Design Systems Division Tektronix, Inc. uucp: {ucbvax,decvax,pur-ee,cbosg,ihnss}!tektronix!teklds!archiel CSnet: archiel@tek ARPAnet: archiel.tek@csnet-relay ------------------------------ Date: 10 Apr 84 10:35:27-PST (Tue) From: decvax!genrad!grkermit!masscomp!kobold!tjt @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Obi-wans brother? Dave Fiedler (infopro!dave) says: If Owen Lars was Luke's uncle, he was therefore the brother of Luke's father, and therefore of Darth Vader. If Obi-Wan was also Owen's brother, then Obi-Wan was ALSO Darth's brother, and also therefore Luke's uncle. Come now! Think! Owen Lars could also be Luke's uncle by being *married* to the sister of Luke's father. i.e. ??? ??? Skywalker | | ----------------- --------------- | | | | Obi-Wan Owen Lars == Beru Anakin == ??? | ------------- | | Luke Leia Owen could also be the brother of Luke's mother, the husband of Luke's mother's sister, ... Tom Teixeira, Massachusetts Computer Corporation. Westford MA ...!{ihnp4,harpo,decvax}!masscomp!tjt (617) 692-6200 x275 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 84 06:37 MST From: Dickson.Scouting@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA (Paul W. Dickson) Subject: Re: The speed of the Deathstar and more Since all Sci-Fi most probably takes place in alternate universes, the laws of nature don't have to conform to those we understand. For all we know, there could be other laws, one which we could call suspense. This new law could make tasks easier or harder, shorter or longer depending on some outside force like a god (or director/producer). But let's try for a more plausible explanation. The Deathstar came out of Hyperspace on the far-side of Yavin because the center of gravity for the planetary system was between Yavin and Yavin-4 (this is assuming that the other satellites of Yavin were very minor). The beam weapon of the Deathstar must consume vast amounts of energy (especially since the planets destroyed, explode), so it must conserve energy and fire from a stable orbit. This also implies that gravity wells interfere with Hyperspace travel. And on to the Deathstar Mk II. This brings up a slight problem with RotJ. With the amount of power available to the Deathstar, what happened to it? When the Deathstar blew, only a small part went to the explosion. And if the Deathstar had succeeded in destroying Endor, it would have gone up [or out] with endor because of the close orbit of the Deathstar. But if the Deathstar had full power when it blew, it would have seared the near surface of Endor. Obviously, the Deathstar only had minimal power available. Only enough to destroy some ships and a few hundred (thousand?) square miles of planetary surface. Odd thoughts: 1) Could the blast of the Deathstar have been directed because of partial construction of the station (directed other than directly at or away from Endor?). 2) A God (Director/Producer?) intervened and said it would happen as to follow a great plan known as a script. -Paul Dickson Dickson%pco@cisl ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 6 Apr 1984 18:50:00-PST From: horovitz%yoda.DEC%decwrl.ARPA@csnet-relay.ARPA Subject: The Tomorrow People Question on the Tommorrow People, I have watched the show for a while and I have not seen the Davison episode. which is it??? n.l.h. ------------------------------ Date: 7 Apr 84 1:16:55-PST (Sat) From: pur-ee!ecn-ee!kechkayl @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Plea for HHGttN - (nf) [ offering to the god of blank lines! ] Would it be possible for someone to MAIL me the text to The Hitchhikers Guide to the Net. I had a copy, but I lost it. Thanks Thomas Ruschak pur-ee!kechkayl ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 18-Apr SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #63 *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Apr 84 1256-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #63 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 18 Apr 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 63 Today's Topics: Administrivia, Books - Clarke & Clough & Herbert & MacAvoy, Films - 70mm Film & Time Bandits & Star Wars, Miscellaneous - Psychic Powers (3 msgs) & Space Station Talk & If Three People (3 msgs) & That Real Old Time Religion & HHGttN & FTL & Hackers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 18 Apr 84 11:55:11 EST From: Saul Subject: Administrivia Thanks to all those who responded to my request for copies of the missing SF-LOVERS archives. The archives are now back on line at SRI-CSL for volumes 1 - 6. Volumes 7 and 8 can be found here at Rutgers. Back issues of the current volume may be obtained by sending a request to sf-lovers-request@rutgers. Enjoy! Saul ------------------------------ Date: 10 Apr 84 7:39:51-PST (Tue) From: hplabs!zehntel!dual!amd70!fortune!dsd!symplex!pat @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Obi-wans brother? I don't believe that 2001 is a fair example of "novels to explain movies." Arthur Clarke wrote a short story titled, I believe, "THE SENTINEL" dealing with mankinds' meeting a monolith-like object on the moon. This inspired Stanley Kubrick to envision a screenplay, which he & Clarke collaborated on. The movie inspired Clarke to write a much more complex & humanistic book (more than the movie), which carried the same title as the movie. Richard Patrick Symplex Communications ..!fortune!dsd!symplex!pat ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 16 Apr 1984 11:25-PST Subject: "Damiano's Lute" and "The Crystal Crown" From: obrien@Rand-Unix Several weeks ago I wandered into a bookstore looking for mind candy to sustain me through a transcontinental flight. I wound up with a copy of "The Crystal Crown", by B. W. Clough, obviously a first novel from DAW. What a surprise! This one's really good! Plot, characters, ideas, all goes together very well. I'm looking forward to more from this person, whoever he or she is. Does anyone out there in netland know anything about this person? This one seems to have come right out of the woodwork, and while it's not Hugo quality, it's a sight better than most of the recent stuff. Fans of AI may be quietly amused. Mike O'Brien ARPA, CSNET: obrien@rand-unix UUCP: {decvax, ucbvax!trwrb}!randvax!obrien ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 84 12:45:14 PST From: Mark Trumpler Subject: Heretics of Dune Heretics of Dune takes place about 3000 years after Leto II's fall. The main characters are Bene Gesserit Reverend Mothers, Tleilaxu Masters (yes, we find out a bit more about that elusive people), and a few people on Dune, now called Rakis. There's the Priests of the Divided God, and a young priestess who can control the (relatively) stunted descendants of Leto II. There is, of course, also a Duncan Idaho ghola, but he's being raised by the BG, and trained by their Bashar, an Atreides descendant who is about 300 years old. There are also a few "bad guys" from what's called the Scattering. As you can imagine, this rather large cast makes the story very complex. There is the usual BG intrigue, not to mention that of the secretive Tleilaxu. The story jumps about, as it did in the previous books, but with the large cast, and the fact that he uses flashbacks at times, tends to make the whole thing a bit difficult. On the whole, it's a good book for Dune fans. -+- Mark ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 16 Apr 1984 11:25-PST Subject: "Damiano's Lute" and "The Crystal Crown" From: obrien@Rand-Unix I also read and enjoyed "Damiano's Lute", by R. A. MacAvoy. Warning: it ends with a real punch in the gut. The ending is so strong that I really don't know if I can recommend it or not. On the plus side, there is a character in there named MacFhoidhbhuidhe, who's an Irish harper (about time: Bertie MacAvoy has been playing wire-strung Celtic harp for years). You'll have a good laugh when you finally figure out how to pronounce that name. Mike O'Brien ARPA, CSNET: obrien@rand-unix UUCP: {decvax, ucbvax!trwrb}!randvax!obrien ------------------------------ Date: Mon 16 Apr 84 12:00:54-EST From: Joseph A. Frisbie Subject: 70mm Tron, as well as Brainstorm, was filmed in 70mm although a 70mm print was never shown in the Boston area. Joe ------------------------------ Date: Tue 17 Apr 84 12:11:51-EST From: Joseph A. Frisbie Subject: Time Bandits Saw an ad for Brazil, the second movie in the Time Bandits Trilogy the other night. Joe ------------------------------ Date: Tue 17 Apr 84 12:10:31-EST From: Joseph A. Frisbie Subject: Deathstars It might not take very much energy to blow up a planet -- probably just enough to set up a chain reaction. Joe ------------------------------ Date: 12 Apr 1984 13:15 EST (Thu) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" Subject: Psychic Powers I agree that psionics are not necessarily parlor tricks. Sure they could be, but on the other hand, in a psionic society a number of things that exist here to serve essentially the same purpose may never get developed. I disagree strongly that psionics makes you a "good" person. If a person is already "good" then he will probably remain so (although what did they say about absolute power?), but suppose your telepath happens to be a sadist? It seems to me that telepathic power will enhance that aspect of him, since he can now experience other's pain directly... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Apr 84 04:04 EST From: Bergman.SoftArts@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Psychic powers and evolution There is a very interesting (and moderately old) book on this subject named "SUNBURST". I am not sure of the author's name, she is a woman. The book is set in a dump town, where the survivors of a nuclear power plant disaster live (and their descendants). Some of these descendants have serious psychic powers. They are also juvenile delinquents. Spoiler follows: ***************** SPOILER ******************************** The story unfolds from the viewpoint of a non-psi who is of the same generation as the JDs, and who turns out to be a psi-null. Eventually the theory is developed that psionic powers are an evolutionary dead end, for much the same reasons advanced earlier in this digest, INCLUDING telepathy, which is suggested as being a holdover from being a herd animal. The problem with telepathy being that an excited telepath has trouble telling his own thoughts from those of someone else, and also great difficulty in developing a personality of his/her own while growing up. The true evolutionary step turns out to be the main character (of course) whose name is Shandy, by the way, and who in addition to not being psionic, also had an extended childhood, is incredibly stable, very intelligent, and very intuitive. --mike bergman bergman.softarts@mit-multics p.s. When I find my copy, I'll post the author's name, if she hasn't already been identified. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Apr 84 00:50:01 EST From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] Subject: psychic powers in Heinlein??? The only Heinlein characters that I can remember having 'psychic powers' are the twins in Time for the Stars. They have telepathy. I believe that I am rather familiar with Heinlein's works...in all other cases that I remember, he clearly states that any 'extra abilities' are either genetically inherited (speed, dexterity, strength) or the product of thought and reasoning. Can you be more specific as to which characters you are talking about? RAH!!! /amqueue ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 1984 18:22:49 PST Subject: Space Station Talk in L.A. April 28 From: Alan R. Katz To: bboard@USC-ISIF, bboard@USC-ECL, space@MIT-MC (For Los Angeles people) The next lecture in the OASIS/L5 lecture series is: SPACE STATION CONCEPTS George Butler Director of Advanced Programs McDonnell Douglas Astronautics Kinsey Auditorium, California Museum of Science and Industry 7:00 pm, April 28, 1984 (Saturday) The history and the future of the concept of having a permanently manned US space station (which President Reagan asked for in his State of the Union address) will be discussed. We should also be showing the mission film of the last Space Shuttle Mission (with great scenes of MMU backpack spacewalks). Admission is free, the meeting starts at 7:00pm in the Kinsey Auditorium of the California Musuem of Science and Industry, across from USC and next to the Colosseum. (Note: Our next scheduled speaker, Dr. Krafft Ehricke, who was to speak on May 19 had to cancel due to health reasons. Instead, we will be having Robert Salkeld talking on "Returning to the Moon." on the same day, still at Rockwell International. I will send another notice out with details next month.) Alan ------------------------------ Date: 11 Apr 84 21:30 EST (Wed) From: Mijjil (Matthew J Lecin) Subject: if three people do it... It goes more like: If one person does, they'll think he's really sick and they won't take him... And if two people do it (in harmony) they'll think they're both faggots and they won't take either of them... And if three do it... they'll think it's an organization... And if 50 people... they'll think it's a movement... (The Alice's Restaurant Anti-Massacre Movement...) Cheers, {Mijjil} ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 13 Apr 1984 11:28:11-PST From: a_vesper%advax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: Once is a ... In the musical/movie 1776, John Adams said: "One useless man is a disgrace, Two are called a law firm, and Three or more become a Congress." "Sit down, John" Andy Vesper / DEC Maynard Fri 13-Apr-1984 08:16 Maynard Time -- Andy Vesper MLO 5-2/U12 DTN (22)3-9005 ------------------------------ From: allegra!scgvaxd!4ccvax!PDUQUETTE@Berkeley Date: Tue, 17 Apr 84 10:44:53 est Subject: Alice's Restaurant >If one person does, they'll think he's crazy >(and haul him away.....) The correct quote is, If one person does it, they'll think he's crazy, and they won't take him. If two people do it, they'll think they're both faggots, and they won't take either one of 'em. If three people do it -- can you imagine, three people walkin' in, humming a bar of Alice's Restaurant, and walkin' out? -- They'll think it's a movement. And that's what it is. Will Duquette Claremont, CA ------------------------------ From: allegra!scgvaxd!4ccvax!PDUQUETTE@Berkeley Date: Sun, 15 Apr 84 22:46:42 est Subject: That Real Old Time Religion Now that we've had so much of that "Real Old Time Religion," howsabout some of that old "Real Time" religion? For example, They revered ancient ENIAC, And sacrificed to UNIVAC. Now we sing our chants on VAX disk pack, And that's all right with me! Will Duquette, Claremont, CA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 84 19:14 EST From: TMPLee@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: HHGttN HHGttN (Hitchhikers Guide to the Net) sounds like a useful thing -- does one also want to ask for it? Ted (ref: msg from Ruschak ) ------------------------------ Date: 9 Apr 84 14:41:43-PST (Mon) From: hplabs!oliveb!jerry @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: faster than light? I have heard it said, and the math would seem to agree, that it is only impossible to approach the speed of light, not to exceed it. As something approaches the speed of light it undergoes time/mass dilation. To reach the speed of light would require infinite energy for any non-zero mass. But! If you plug in the value of 2c you get the same mass/energy values as 1/2c. This leads to the speculation concerning tachions, or particles which have a lower limit of the speed of light. It has yet to be determined whether the other half of the formula represents reality or not. As I understand it particles traveling faster than light could not interact with normal matter so nobody has come up with a test. I'm not saying that this is the key to "warp" drive, just that there are openings in the math. On the subject of fiction why is magic OK but ftl unacceptable? Much magic seems to violate the principles of mass/energy conservation. Mass/energy conservation is considered much more basic than the speed of light limitation. If an alternate universe allows one, then why not the other? Jerry Aguirre {hplabs|fortune|ios|tolerant|allegra|tymix}!oliveb!jerry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 1984 23:35 EST From: RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: Don Provan@CMU-CS-A.ARPA Subject: hackers Wrong wrong wrong! The original term hacker, as relating to CS, originated at MIT, where it had very much the same connotation as wizard does on the SAIL systems, one who is conversant enough with the world that he/she can hack together a fix for a problem in a short period of time. If you look at the MITSAI JARGON file, the 5 definitions of hacker do include the one being used today by newspeople, someone who breaks into systems for fun, but it is listed fifth and last. I am preparing an article for submission which outlines why the term is inappropriate for most cases of computer security violation. Briefly, it goes like this: All security violation has to begin with access. If you can't get past the login, you can't do anything (even Trojan horses have to get by login.) To login, you need insider's info. At the least, you need a valid user id. From that, you can use exhaustive search of passwords (which is slow, but eventually works), or lucky guesses (the 60% "Susan" rule). Neither of these is elegant, nor does either require much expertise. I could teach any literate person to break into systems in under an hour. The tools of a login hacker are traded secrets, like DEC's field circus password. Now, the ability of someone to override account limitations once they get in is a different story. This actually requires considerable skill. But just like passwords, once one person knows how to do it, the word gets around (I've heard rumors of a 7 line MACRO program which turns on VMS SETPRV...) The people who are being labeled hackers are in reality the same people who trade MCI numbers and pay TV decoder plans. The computer facet just gets more publicity. Calling them hackers is like calling anyone who can make mustard gas and use it for terrorism a chemist. I resent being classed with a bunch of third rate pimply high school kids who don't have what it takes to rate legit computer time. And in direct response to Don Provan's comment, most hackers (MIT sense) have the skill to whittle, but I note a lot of the CS gurus who can whittle don't have the strength to hack. Proud to be called a hacker, James M. Turner Software Engineer, LISP Machine, Inc (JMTURN@MIT-MC) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 19-Apr SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #64 *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Apr 84 1219-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #64 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 19 Apr 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 64 Today's Topics: Books - Chalker & Vance & Two Queries, Films - Star Wars (3 msgs), Miscellaneous - Getting Rich by Time Travel (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: allegra!scgvaxd!4ccvax!PDUQUETTE@Berkeley Date: Wed, 18 Apr 84 22:40:48 est Subject: Well World Hex Names A few weeks ago, someone declared that the names of the individual hexes in Jack Chalker's Well World Series were all actually names of various authors and fans. This is not completely true. For example, for the H. P. Lovecraft fans out there, there are the hexes of Nyarlath[otep] and Yogsoth[oth]. Then there are my favorites, a pair of adjacent hexes named Labrea and Tarpitz. (Unfortunately, they're not at the corner of Pico and Sepulveda. {Will Duquette, Claremont, CA} ------------------------------ Date: 18 Apr 84 10:26:50 PST (Wednesday) From: Caro.PA@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Jack Vance Cc: (Royal Navy) Caro.PA@Xerox.ARPA, riggle@UCBARPA.ARPA, Cc: chris@UCBARPA.ARPA, sarge%UCBCORY@Berkeley.ARPA, Cc: edward@UCBARPA.ARPA, Cc: taliesin%UCBONYX@Berkeley.ARPA (Lady LLeyn), Cc: comay@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA, Cc: marshall@UCBARPA.ARPA, leres@UCBARPA.ARPA, Cc: Poskanzer.pa@Xerox.ARPA I just finished reading Jack Vance's "Eyes of the Overworld." I found it laughing-out-loud funny in some places. Also, I am overwhelmed by Vance's vocabulary. Some might think that Mr. Vance is just showing off his erudition, but I think that his dissatisfaction with mundane words contributes to the overall style that is his trademark. I found the following "out-of-the-ordinary" words in the novel (doubtless I am only revealing my own ignorance, but I think it's worth the risk.) I will leave the definition of these words as an excercise for the reader: abnegation, adumbrated, assiduously, cogency, cognomen, egregious, ensilage, expatiate, flexion, fuscous, hector, hyperbole, intercongeles*, locutor, lunules, objurgation, pervulsion, polyandrous, sept, spinifex, sponsons, squamous, supererogatory, suprapullulations*, syncretic, swange, timorous [* are probably neologisms] In addition, I found the following passages (rendered sans permission) exceptional [NO SPOILER]: "Precisely this thought deters me," Cugel replied. "I am a man of resource, but not insensate recklessness." ... "All in good time," said Iucounu. "First I must ensure that, once at liberty, you conduct yourself with unremitting loyalty, zeal and singleness of purpose." "Have no fear," declared Cugel. "My word is my bond." "Excellent!" cried Iucounu. "This knowledge represents a basic security which I do not take lightly. The act now to be preformed is doubtless supererogatory." ... Cugel hurriedly disavowed any such ambition. "I am of low quality; my garments are soiled, my person reeks; my conversation consists of insipid platitudes. Best not to disturb the ruler of Cil." ... "Additionally, Pharesm maintains a conservatory where all may enrich their intellects. I myself take instruction in Insect Indentification, the Heraldry of the Kings of Old Gomaz, Unison Chanting, Practical Catalepsy and Orthodox Doctrine. You will never find a master more generous than Pharesm the Sorcerer!" ... "...I can define the gravity of your act in this manner: should I explode you on this instant into the most minute of your parts the atonement would measure one ten-millionth of your offense. A more stringent retribution becomes necessary." ... [This one is particularly subtle] Cugel thereupon besought him to lend his talisman of erotic stimulation. "The women of Erze Damath show to good advantage, and with the help of the talisman I will extend my knowledge of their capabilities." "By no means," said Voynod, hugging his pouch close to his side. "My reasons need no amplification." Cugel put on a sullen scowl. Voynod was a man whose grandiose personal conceptions seemed particularly far-fetched and distasteful, by reason of his unhealthy, gaunt and saturnine appearance. [har har har!] ... Perry ------------------------------ Date: 14 Apr 84 14:43:46-PST (Sat) From: decvax!mcnc!akgua!clyde!watmath!utzoo!hcr!paulb @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Spider Robinson/True Names Does anybody like Spider Robinson? I recently finished one of his books (as far as I know his only book), "Mindkiller" and in spite of the raw edges I rather enjoyed it. This is the only book of his I have been able to find, and I searched a really big bookstore here in Toronto (they call themselves "The World's Largest Bookstore", but it's still only a Coles) to no avail. This is typical however - heavy sigh. One more query, some time ago I read a "novella" (there were two of them in the book I read) called "True Names". It was all about computer gaming taken to a higher level. Well, I lost the book, but liked that author too. Anyone know who (s)he is? Paul R. Bonneau {decvax|watmath|utzoo}!hcr!hcrvax!paulb ------------------------------ Date: 12 Apr 84 8:32:17-PST (Thu) From: harpo!ulysses!burl!clyde!akgua!psuvax!burdvax!sjuvax!armstron @ From: Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Obi-wans brother? Now, let's not forget the possibility of Luke simply being told that Owen was his uncle, but who in reality was actually no such relation. I think we all probably have "aunts", "uncles", and "cousins" this way. Len Armstrong, St. Joseph's University. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Apr 84 10:34:20-PST (Fri) From: harpo!ulysses!burl!clyde!akgua!psuvax!starner @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Obi-wans brother? >Now, let's not forget the possibility of Luke simply being told >that Owen was his uncle, but who in reality was actually no such >relation. This is the case. It is stated very plainly in the book (I dont have mine handy, or i would tell you a page number). Mark Starner Computer Science Department (814) 863-0392 301b Whitmore Lab {allegra,ihnp4}!psuvax!starner The Pennsylvania State University starner@penn-state (csnet) University Park, PA 16802 starner@psuvax1 (bitnet) ------------------------------ Date: 15 Apr 84 0:37:56-PST (Sun) From: simpers @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Death-Star and Endor I always thought that the reason the Death Star's shield was on Endor was because the Death Star wasn't finished yet. When the emperor arrives on the scene, construction is far behind schedule. When the rebels attack, pictures clearly show a good portion of what will be the Death Star as open space. What probably happened is that the emperor put finishing the weapons as a first priority, given that he knew the rebels would come. When he tells Luke the Death Star is "fully operational" he means the weapons. This line is clearly intended to scare Luke, and he would hardly be scared of shields. Scott simpers@BERKELEY ucbvax!simpers ------------------------------ Date: 9 Apr 84 10:37:29-PST (Mon) From: decvax!wivax!ss @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: The Easy Road to Riches > OK -- here you are in 1984 with your time machine and bank account > and microfiche of the Wall Street Journal. You want to go buy > Xerox when it was Haloid (or whatever), Polaroid, gold, etc., when > it was at its lowest and sell at the highest peak. How do you do > it? Just going to the bank and getting a briefcase-full of > Federal Reserve Notes isn't going to help -- most of them will > date from releases later than the dates you will be going to, and > they will be considered very good counterfeits. Why must you buy when it was at its lowest and sell at the highest? A few small, known fluctuations in the price of a stock will quickly add up. You only need go back to last week to make some sensational stock manuevers (I am reasonably sure). Doing it this way you won't have to worry about currency problems, or even finding a stock broker who wants to know who you are and where you live! Just use your own. Instead of making 1 or 2 large transactions, make a few dozen small ones - also calls less attention to yourself! ------------------------------ Date: 11 Apr 84 1:06:30-PST (Wed) From: ihnp4!fortune!rpw3 @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: The Easy Road to Riches +-------------------- | So, before this gets any longer, I'll sum up by asking: "How DO I | get rich by time travel?" | | Will +-------------------- You said it yourself. Information. Inflation. Both work in your favor. But first, there is one other rule that we must add to the game to make it non-trivial -- you may not time-travel to any time futurewards of when you would have been had you not begun travelling. That is, except for returning to a point of departure, you may not travel into the future. (The rule may be relaxed to allow "now" + "time spent in past" without changing anything.) Why do I say the game is trivial without this rule? Because if you can travel into your "personal" future, all you have to do is be in business here-and-now and occasionally hop forward a bit to bring back some useful tidbit. Nobody will question your 1984 $20 bill when you go to buy two year's Wall Street Journal (on microfiche) in 1986. "Puts and calls, here I come!" Just don't be too greedy or the SEC will come a'calling. Likewise, I must assume another "rule" -- you are not interested in setting up your major residence in a past time. Otherwise, see previous example. (Hey, dentistry gets LOTS better, every year. Just five years ago, you would have lost that tooth!) O.k., so you're going to live here, and fool around back then. Overall, the information you carry back must be of such quality as to permit you to make profits exceeding inflation. Since you want to stay secret, you cannot make a very big splash either then now. Therefore you must run a multi-pass operation, such that the incremental profits don't draw attention to yourself but the total profit is worth the work you put in. The capital you must expend is therefore -- your own subjective time (which many will say is the only true personal capital). You will expend that "capital" in setting up an alternate personality who will do the commerce. (Unless you already did this under your own name, and you're already rich and just playing mind games with "all us zombies..." [RAH]) Still, there are many things you can take back for the cash portion of the bootstrap (remember, "no splash" == "small" grubstake): 1. Diamonds. (Not gold... are you kidding?) Other gemstones. 2. Old bills and coins (but for their face, not present, value). Not that I'd want to try and handle the culture shock of that long a jump, but Confederate money is going for face (or better) value these days. If you're only hopping a few years (my choice), sort through some cash to find the cleanest-looking ones that aren't anachronistic. 3. Ancient articles which are self-identifying (but not TOO rare), such as jade, pottery. 4. Advice to others. (Have to be careful with this one. Some states have rules on who can give investment advice.) Generally, you want items that have always had SOME value, but have NOT been a good hedge against inflation. In fact, anything that was once valuable, but has recently LOST value (obsolete technology not yet old enough to be rare), is best. And you don't need very much. $10,000 will get you well set. I claim that a pocket full of $20's would be fine. >From there on, play the "trivial" game defined above, for a good while. As you close on current times, you have to figure out a way to transfer "the goods" from your persona to you. Sell "him" something "he" wants. Gouge "him". Pay taxes (probably "again") on your bounty. After you have milked "him" (or "her", if you're female) dry, let "him" retire somewhere and quietly disappear. Start up another one. (You might actually have several going at once, but beware of over- extending yourself. The literature if full of warnings, e.g., "The Man Who Folded Himself".) Whatever you do in all of your personae, don't screw with the IRS! You'll be making enough to keep them and you both happy. A special case of the rule: Don't get greedy; someone will notice. DON'T make more than a few tens of thousands gambling! (There are those besides the IRS whose attentions you REALLY don't want!) Postscript: 1. If short transfers are permitted, the above hassle is totally unnecessary. You will walk in one day and tell yourself to buy 100 shares of so-and-so. Do it. You will continue to give yourself good advice (from next week). Listen. Get rich. If you are careful, people will just think you are "lucky" or "smart". Someday you will get the device (or trick or mantra) let lets you go backwards. Start using it to advise your(younger)self. Keep good notes. Someday you may find out where you got the device (or trick or mantra). Then again, you may not... 2. If short transfers are NOT permitted (as in Keith Laumer's "Dinosaur Beach"), you're in trouble. If tranfers to historical times are permitted, you just MIGHT be able to profit from your information, but it's going to be hard. The daily details (stocks, etc.) aren't recorded back very far, and how does one make money from major historical events? Might be better to take up residency back then and pop up to now for medical care. You could always sell Pompeii short. ;-} Rob Warnock UUCP: {ihnp4,ucbvax!amd70,hpda,harpo,sri-unix,allegra}!fortune!rpw3 DDD: (415)595-8444 USPS: Fortune Systems Corp, 101 Twin Dolphin Drive, Redwood City, CA 94065 ------------------------------ Date: 13 Apr 84 22:40:52-PST (Fri) From: wildbill @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: How to get rich with a time machine Better watch yourself with that stock market gimmick. I remember reading an SF story where a wealthy individual had amassed considerable assets in the market. He had visions of another crash upcoming, so he borrowed a time machine which a mad-scientist relative of his had just recently invented and jumped several years into the future to find out when it was. Upon consulting the newspapers in the local library, he fouind out the big crash was the day after he left, so he dashed back and told his broker to sell everything. The next day, the headlines were exactly the same as he remembered, but the fine print (which he hadn't bothered to read in the library) revealed that the major cause was \\his own sellout//. He promptly became the target of a rather large lynch mob composed of people who had lost their shirts in the collapse. Another story along slightly different lines (I think this one is by Fredric Brown) concerns the inventor who builds a time machine and then tries to figure out how to get rich with it when one has virtually no money, only to find out that there is a Time Police with the duty of ensuring that no illegal activities are committed with time machines. He eventually gets shut down permanently -- quite funny. Bill Laubenheimer UC-Berkeley Computer Science ...Killjoy WAS here! ucbvax!wildbill ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 20-Apr SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #65 *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Apr 84 1352-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #65 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 20 Apr 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 65 Today's Topics: Books - Gotleib & Heinlein (2 msgs) & Robinson (2 msgs) & Vinge, Films - 70mm & The Last Starfighter & Star Wars, Miscellaneous - Hackers (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri 20 Apr 84 03:35:53-CST From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA Subject: SUNBURST; SF heroines ^^^^^^^^^^^ Author Identified and a Gauntlet Thrown Down ^^^^^^^ SUNBURST, with the young heroine with psi capabilities, is by Phyllis Gotlieb. Published in 1964, it is the 9th oldest SF paperback book with a female protagonist which I have been able to discover in a number of years' collecting. (The newest came out just this week from DelRey-- THE GIRL FROM THE EMERALINE ISLAND by Robert S. Blum. Not the greatest, but not bad.) SF paperback books with female protagonists aren't the rarity they were back then when there were only 9 between 1951 and 1964. But tracking them down isn't easy. I've located something over a hundred. Since every once in a while I come across an oldie I've missed I have no illusions about my collection being complete. Though of course I'd sure like it to be! So I issue this in the form of a challenge-- NOT EVEN ON THIS NET IS THERE ANYONE WHO CAN NAME A \SCIENCE FICTION/ (NOT FANTASY) PAPER- BACK BOOK WITH A FEMALE PROTAGONIST THAT'S NOT ALREADY KNOWN TO ME. Obviously, it's a challenge I hope to lose! Reply directly to me, to keep the net from being clogged up. (I do know about all of Schmitz' and McCaffrey's and about Podkayne, Mia, Greta, Freda, Rydra, and Rissa; and no, Susan doesn't qualify.) I will reply to all suggestions, and shout to the housetops about anyone who CAN name one I don't know about. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Apr 84 21:12:24-PST (Sun) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!ut-sally!jsq @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: short story query "All You Zombies," R.A. Heinlein, appears in several collections (4XH?). ``I know where *I* came from, but what about all you zombies?'' (Quoted more or less accurately from memory.) I wish to know the title of a time-travel story. In the story, a man/woman journeys in time to seduce a woman/man. The time- traveler takes the child conceived by this union back in time. The child grows up to become the seduced parent. Furthermore after the birth, this mother/father has a sex change operation, comes upon a time machine, and thereby becomes father/mother as well. Please give me information as to where I can find this story as well as its title. Robert Luoma Astronomy Dept, University of Texas, Austin TX 78712 (USmail) ...{ihnp4,kpno,ctvax}!ut-sally!utastro!luoma (uucp) John Quarterman, CS Dept., University of Texas, Austin, Texas jsq@ut-sally.ARPA, jsq@ut-sally.UUCP, {ihnp4,seismo,ctvax}!ut-sally!jsq ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 18 Apr 1984 14:39-EST From: munck@Mitre-Bedford Subject: Psychic powers in Heinlein It is interesting that Heinlein avoids PSI most of the time. However, it seems to me that the second exception has to be Valentine Michael Smith, SiaSL. -- Bob Munck, MITRE ------------------------------ Date: 19 Apr 84 12:15:45 EST From: Saul Subject: Re: Spider Robinson/True Names To: decvax!mcnc!akgua!clyde!watmath!utzoo!hcr!paulb@UCB-VAX.ARPA I recently read two of Spider Robinsons other books and enjoyed them very much. The first of them "Callahan's Crosstime Saloon" is a collection of short stories that take place in this bar. All the stories center around some theme and all of them are filled with the worst (best?) puns you can possibly imagine. Or then again maybe not. I've seen some from Asimov as well as Zelazny and I've been known to make quite a few of my own. In fact, at Boskone there is an event known as Punday Night which is taken from this book. I recommend it to all who have not read it yet. The second book is "Time Travelers Strictly Cash" and has some more stories in it from Callahan's. It also has in it some of the stuff that Spider wrote for various magazines including a defense of Heinlein. All of those people who have in recent issues of this digest been putting down Heinlein should read this essay by Spider Robinson. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Apr 84 18:09:58 EST From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #64 Does anybody like Spider Robinson??? A resounding Yea! He has been around for at least 5 years, writing mostly short stories. Many of these are about a bar called Callahan's, the first of which are collected in Callahan's Crosstime Saloon. There are more in the book Time Travelers Strictly Cash, but that book also has other short stories in it. At present he has a tendency to write short stories and then expand them into novels; I feel the novels suffer in comparison to the short stories. They don't have the impact that the short stories have, through having that same impact spread through an entire book. I suppose this may also come of the fact that I grab everything I can by him, so that the novels are never any surprise. Here is a listing of his books that I can remember, along with the short stories they started as: Novels: Mindkiller (God Is An Iron, Omni magazine) Stardance (Stardance, Analog?) Telempath (Telempath) Collections of Short Stories: Callahan's Crosstime Saloon Time Travelers Strictly Cash Antinomy There are more, but I can't remember them now. Almost all of my copies get borrowed or lent out; I have a tendency to proselytize about the man. To me he has the optimism of Heinlein, but with a much surer confidence that things CAN work out right. As example, see the story "The Magnificent Conspiracy" in Antinomy. Let me stop before I write a book... have fun /amqueue [Moderator's Note: Thanks also to the following people who responded with similar information: Harris Shiffman (Shiffman%SCH-GODZILLA@MIT-MC) Scott Turner (srt@UCLA-CS) Chuq Von Rospach {amd70,fortune,hplabs,menlo70}!nsc!chuqui ] ------------------------------ Date: Thu 19 Apr 84 11:53:29-PST From: Rich Zellich Subject: True Names author query in SFL V9 #64 To: decvax!mcnc!akgua!clyde!watmath!utzoo!hcr!paulb@UCB-VAX.ARPA "True Names" is by Vernor Vinge, and is one of the two novellas in Dell SF Binary Star #5. The other is George R.R. Martin's "Nightflyers". Cheers, Rich ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 18 April 1984, 23:19-PST From: Craig W. Reynolds Subject: 70mm To: Joseph A. Frisbie Date: Mon 16 Apr 84 12:00:54-EST From: Joseph A. Frisbie Subject: 70mm Tron, as well as Brainstorm, was filmed in 70mm although a 70mm print was never shown in the Boston area. Well, close enough -- principal photography for a 70mm release print is normally done in 65mm, but what's 5mm between friends? But the effects in TRON were shot in Vistavision (horizontal 35mm, 8 perf frames) where as the Braindrain effects work was shot in 65mm. As Mike Wahrman mentioned, this was better-than-standard practice, and the proof was on the screen. -c ------------------------------ Date: 19 Apr 84 17:09:25 PST (Thursday) From: Isdale.ES@XEROX.ARPA Subject: New SF movie: The Last Starfighter (Computer Animation/Efx) The final filming of a new "Space Epic" has just been completed. The twist to this movie, The Last Starfighter (Lorimar/MGM/Universal), is that it will contain about 20-25 minutes of Computer generated images: Space battles, planets, star fields, warp drives, etc. The scenes were done by Digital Productions (Los Angeles) on a CRAY X/MP (a dual processor CRAY 1). The plot is fairly simple(not a spoiler as the Trailer is out in the theaters and says about the same.): Young kid/video hotshot wants out of dull rural life. his video game scores attract the Alien recruiters who take him away to fight for the survival of the free galaxy. The space scenes are FANTASTIC (I used to work at Digital Prod.) The level of detail and realism makes TRON look like child's play. There are NO models used (as in the Star Wars and Star Trek features). The final battle scenes have more moving objects than Lucas' ILM has yet been able to do with models (basicly because the models have to be shot in several passes with some quality losses, the computer generated images get merged -matted- in the CRAY so there is only one film recording pass.) The Art Director was Ron Cobb who did the humans' ship for ALIEN as well as working on such other flicks as Dark Star, Conan, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Star Wars (several aliens in the bar). Ron has done work for NASA. He did much of the ship designs for Starfighter (with Lorimar making odd demands that hinder the looks). There are a couple trailers for the movie currently in the theaters. The movie itself is scheduled for release in June. The live action stuff was completed months ago and cut in with the low detail computer images. They are now replacing the low res. stuff with the full blown images. Some of the scenes took as long as 40 dedicated CRAY hours to film. Wait till you see this one. The images will blow your socks off!! (as for "used to work at": 70-80 hour weeks -7days- without overtime compensation (straight salary) all the time, no chance of raises, terrible physical environment, and the company management has a BIG problem dealing with humans. They are much more at home with a terminal.- Flame off-) Jerry Isdale (...!)ucbvax!Isdale.es@XEROX.Arpa ------------------------------ Date: Fri 20 Apr 84 00:04:24-EST From: Peter G. Trei Subject: Death Star weapon. After seeing a lot of casual talk on this board about the Death Star and its ability to blow up planets, I decided it was time to get a little more specific. Just how much energy does it actually take to blow up, say Earth (we dont have the stats for Alderan). For the sake of argument, I have defined a planet as being 'blown up' when its fragments are receding from its original location fast enough so that they will never coalesce again. In effect, the entire mass of the planet has to be accelerated to its own escape velocity. Using the back of a very large envelope, this is what I came up with. (I hope someone checks these figures). Earths density : 5.52 g/cm^3 Diameter: 12,757 km Escape velocity: 11.3 km/s => vol = 1.087 E13 km^3 mass = 6 E25 kg => Need 3.8307 E33 Joules to blow up. (Of course, this ignores the planets structural strength, and assumes 100% efficiency in production of kinetic energy with the appropriate vectors.) Thats a lot of EverReadys. What could be the source of this energy? Can the Death Star hold that much? The answer is yes, if they use mass conversion at high efficiency. Here is the calculation for the mass equivalent of that energy: 1 kg = 9 E16 Joules (from E = mc^2) => need 4.2555 E16 kg of mass. If this mass is at the same density as the Earth, you will require 8100 Km^3 of it. In one lump, this is a spheroidal rock about 25 Km across. Of course, it gets smaller if you use lead, or neutronium. Some people have been saying that the DS is '100 miles' across. I find this difficult to accept. From its appearence in the movies, I would have said that its diameter was 5-10 miles at the outside. This obviously leads one to wonder where they keep (a minimum of) 4 E16 kg of ammo, and still leave room inside for spacefighter dogfights. Even using antimatter doesn't really help, at best it improves your ammo's effiency by a factor of two. I am forced to the conclusion that the DS's main weapon is not sending out all of that energy itself. Somewhere along the line more energy is being produced, and delivered to the target. The 'chain reaction' hypothesis thus appears. I can think of two ways to do this: 1. Induced fusion. Back when they were testing the first thermonuclear weapons out in the Pacific, some people entertained serious worries that the shock wave of the bombs would induce fusion in the light water of the Ocean, leading to a chain reaction in which all the hydrogen of the Earth would fuse. Also, think of the current work on inertial confinment laser induced fusion. I have heard that the Antares laser produces (momentary) flashes of 4 E19 watts. 2. Matter conversion ray. In one of his Known Space stories, Larry Niven had a weapon, the ray of which would convert anything it touched to energy. Even on an airless moon, you could see the ray because of the destruction of interplanetary gas. At one point the protagonist accidently allows the ray to intersect the horizon, causing a major earthquake. It would be just dandy as a planet destroyer (BTW, this was a HAND WEAPON!). Peter Trei oc.trei%cu20b@columbia-20.arpa PS: I wonder how many times in the past someone has actually done this calculation! Hail Eris! PT ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 1984 06:59:14 PST From: CARROLL@USC-ISIB Subject: Correction The mischievous imp in the Superman comics is MR. MXYZPTLK (pronounced mix-yez-pit-el-ick). The "Z" was left out of the original reference. I believe he was from a "5th-dimensional" world with an equally strange name, and would come into our dimension occasionally to pester Supes. The only way he could be gotten rid of (temporarily) was to trick him into saying his name backwards (kil-tip-zix-em). ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 17 Apr 1984 06:48:43-PST From: lewis%spider.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: Duntemann on hackers, Mxyztplk At least spell it correctly. M X Y Z T P L K ! I recall being told that this is actually a "real" surname in Poland and is pronounced approximately Mix YEZ te plik. I have also heard it pronounced Mix yez TI pulk, however. Surely there is someone who can state which is more proper, and whether Poles, who already have enough jokes to be offended by, would be offended by this suggested appropriation of a name to mean "the good kind of hacker; a clever, mostly harmless, prankster". I think Duntemann's suggestion has the (possibly unwanted) side effect of pointing out that even though there may be naive Mxyztplk style hackers they have the SAME EFFECT as villains because their pranks can be so disruptive. As for the media image of the hacker - it has the same relation to the truth about computer people as "the Mad Scientist" has to the truth about real scientists. Just as the mass culture never figured out why a sane human being would devote his/her life to laboratory science, it will never figure out the aesthetic high possible from the exploration of computer science. Getting bent out of shape because of this media image is fruitless. 20 years ago some of us were similarly offended by all the B-movie mad scientists. But the image met a need. The hacker thing meets a need, too. The same one, probably. Just as magicians were once feared and envied, now people who understand and deal with technology are feared and envied. How do you think the farmers who built Stonehenge felt about the mages who directed the project? How many people NOWADAYS understand how Stonehenge could be used to predict eclipses? If people don't understand that simple, single purpose computer how do you expect them to understand the modern thing and the people who work with them? Give it up. The Hacker, as a media image, is here to stay. It's the mad scientist all over again. Blecch. - Suford ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 23-Apr SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #66 *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Apr 84 1258-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #66 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 23 Apr 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 66 Today's Topics: Books - Bradley & Donaldson & Hardy & Herbert & Sheckley & V. Vinge, Films - Star Wars (3 msgs), Miscellaneous - Getting Rich By Time Travel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 17 Apr 84 1:43:23-PST (Tue) From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!dsd!avsdS!avsdT.sharon @ Ucb-Vax Subject: List of Darkover Books I seem to remember (in the not-too-distant past) the question arise of "What is the correct chronological order of Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover novels?" Well, I was in a a bookstore today (Kepler's in Menlo Park for all you other locals) which has posted a list of the Darkover books. It is here reprinted for you: Darkover Books by Internal Chronological Order 1. Darkover Landfall 2. Stormqueen 3. Hawkmistress 4. Two to Conquer 5. The Spell Sword 6. The Forbidden Tower 7. The Shattered Chain 8. Thendara House 9. Star of Danger 10. Winds of Darkover 11. The Bloody Sun 12. The Heritage of Hastur 13. The Planet Savers 14. The Sword of Aldones 15. Sharra's Exile 16. The World Wreckers Collection of Short Stories concerning Darkover in Order of Publication (caveat emptor: I believe most of the stories in these books are not even written by Marion Zimmer Bradley -- they were written by fans.) 1. The Keeper's Price 2. Sword of Chaos 3. Greyhaven ------------------------------ Date: 15 Apr 84 16:16:21-PST (Sun) From: harpo!ulysses!burl!clyde!akgua!jett!brian @ Ucb-Vax Subject: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant/Sanskrit definitions Can anyone out there give me the (real) definitions of some of the Sanskrit words used in the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever? I happened to run into a definition of MOKSHA (New plane of existence entered by souls which have attained perfection through many incarnations--Hindu belief) today and wondered if the other definitions were available. I am especially interested in the definitions for: aliantha, amanibhavam, anundivian yajna, Banas Nimoram, Bhrathair (brother?), caamora, Kelenbhrabanal, Melenkurion abatha (etc), turiya, samadhi, orcrest, lillianrill, lomillialor, lor-liaril, lianar, rhadhamaerl, suru-pa-maerl, dhraga, dhubha, dhurng, drhami, durhisitar, ghohristar, ghramin, Haruchai, krill, rukh, rhysh, skest, ussusimiel, voure, vraith, ak-Haru, clachan, croyel, Elemesnedene (I know what Elohim means), husta, Kenaustin Ardenol, maidan, and Nicor. I list these in case there is someone out there who knows the definitions but has not read the books. Of course, I am sure some of these are not from Sanskrit at all, but I would not know which ones. Thanks for your help, -- Brian Reynolds {ihnp4|clyde|sdcrdcf}!akgua!jett!brian ------------------------------ Date: 16 Apr 84 10:34:00-PST (Mon) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!kaufman @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Hardy Sequel Forthcoming "Secret of the Sixth Magic" by Lyndon Hardy, sequel to "Master of the Five Magics", is due out in September. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Apr 84 3:24:37-PST (Wed) From: decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdccs6!ix21 @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Dune fans please note, Herbert on radio Avid Dune fans may be interested to know that Frank Herbert will be interviewed live on the Larry King Show Thursday evening, (Friday morning), April 19-20. The Larry King show is carried on many radio stations across the nation. The interview will be on from 12:00 to 3:00 am EST. Some stations in the Pacific time zone; however, tape-delay the first two hours of the show and play them back from 2:00 to 4:00 PST. The first hour will be a straight interview, and the latter two hours are reserved for phone in questions. The Larry King show is carried on the Mutual Broadcast System and many other stations across the nation; check your newspaper to see if the show is carried in your area. In the San Diego area the Larry King Show is on KOGO 600 AM; the last hour of the interview will be on live at 11:00 pm PST, and the entire interview will be replayed from 2:00 to 5:00. In the Los Angeles area the show is carried on KPRZ 1150 AM on tape from 2:00 to 5:00. If you want to call in to ask a question the phone number is (703) 685-2177; if you get a ring, hold on, they will answer when it is your turn to save on your phone charges; this may take 45 minutes if a lot of people are calling in. ------------------------------ Date: Sat 21 Apr 84 18:24:26-EST From: Victor Muslin Subject: ROBERT SHECKLEY I am collecting SF books by Robert Sheckley. I have about ten or twelve of his works, but I know that my collection is incomplete. I would like to buy/trade/receive-as-a-present his books that I don't have. Anyone else out there interested in his work? ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 84 15:42:35-PST (Tue) From: hplabs!hao!kpno!parks @ Ucb-Vax Subject: True Names TRUE NAMES was written by Vernor Vinge, who is the author of the currently running serial in Analog this (and next) month. I also really enjoy his writing, but he doesn't write all that much. According to this month's Analog Biolog, he is a mathematics prof at San Diego, and interested in FORTH among other computer languages. They also say that the movie rights have been picked up on True Names! I would very much like to find out about any other works by Vinge (Vernor, not his ex-wife Joan). He has three books published called "Grimm's World", "The Witling", and "True Names". He also published several shorts in Analog and Galaxy, including "The Infinity Sense" (An), the frontliner (?) series (Galaxy), and "The Peace War" (the current Analog). Does anyone know of any others?? Also, what issues of Galaxy did the frontliner series appear in, and how many stories? Jay Parks (decvax!hao!ihnp4!seismo)!kpno!parks :uucp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Apr 84 19:27 EST From: Aspnes@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: The Death Star Weapon To: oc.trei%cu20b@COLUMBIA-20.ARPA Peter Trei has performed an invaluable service in calculating the energy we need to put an end to Earthly worries, but he neglects to include other specific information known about the Death Star's weapons system. Assuming 4E33 Joules to kill a planet, and assuming that the Death Star is capable of delivering that kind of energy, one can make the following observations about the Death Star's beam: Using an assumed firing time of 1 second, and assuming six (yes, I counted the little beams that joined to form the big beam) firing tubes, each having an effective diameter of 2 meters (a guess from the picture of one of the firing tubes in the third movie (admittedly, on the improved Death Star Mk II)), the Death Star's beam has a power of ~4E33 Watts, and an energy flux density of 5.6E31 Watts/meter-squared. This works out to an energy density in the beam of: 1.85E23 Joules/meter-cubed (!!!) which has an equivalent mass density of 2.06E6 kilograms/meter-cubed, which is over two thousand times the density of water. This leads is to one of several conclusions: 1) Not only is the Death Star powered by neutronium, but it fires it as well. This would explain, among other things, the bizarre merging effect of the Death Star's fire into a single beam. Unfortunately, the entire concept of the Death Star's weapon being a very advanced ballistic water cannon seems contrary to the spirit of the movie. 2) A total conversion ray, as discussed in Peter's analysis. This gets around the energy problem, but it lacks the god-defying power present in the image of the Death Star. Since the Death Star is much too efficient anyway (biotoxins or heating the planet to 4000 degrees will take out a planet more cheaply), we must assume that its very reason for existence lay in the twisted power trip of some high-ranking Imperial official, apparently (from the third movie) the Emperor himself. Such a perverse, planet-wrecking mind would hardly be satisfied by funny scientific trickeries when raw power would suffice. 3) A Godsfire effect. (This is my personal favorite.) 1.85E23 Joules/meter-cubed (or six times that at the focal point) seems like more than enough energy to rip great bloody holes in the fabric of the universe. This allows gobs of energy to come from **somewhere** and pulverize your planet for you. If you could get away with less, you save on energy, and your Emperor now can claim wresting fire from the Gods to fuel his hubris. The principal argument that I can see for this lies in the use of weak, primary beams to produce the mammoth secondary beam; this would correspond to focusing the maximum amount of power into a single point in order to summon the energy from **somewhere**. If I remember right, the primary beams bore on their focal point for a fraction of a second before the secondary beam appeared. You can't do this with simple energy or ballistic weapons. 4) Magic. By far the best of the lot, but also the least satisfying. These are the biggies that I can come up with. If anybody else can think of anything significantly different, I'd like to hear about it. The Force Be With You, Always. --Jim Aspnes (Aspnes@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: 22 Apr 84 03:07:00 PST (Sun) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #65 From: Operators In the book "The Empire Strikes Back" the relation of the characters is explained. It says that when Anakin/Darth had the twins Luke and Leia, he was afraid that the Emperor would find out about them (since they would be a threat to the Empire). So Anakin had his teacher Obi-Wan take the kids and hide them. Obi-Wan took Leia to Senator Organa on Alderaan. Luke was taken to Owen Lars (Obi's brother) on Tatooine. The Organa's adopted Leia and the Lars' adopted Luke. Really simple, isn't it? Douglas Krause ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 84 7:45:34-PST (Tue) From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!houxe!45223wc @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Princess Who? summary: After receiving dozens of responses on my Princess Who? article, I summarize: Almost half say that C3PO knew it was the princess but was protecting her. Almost half say that C3PO knew the princess was on board but had never met her and therefore did not recognize her. One person said it was a writer's error and that the line was changed in the re-release that came out just before ROTJ to say: 'The Captain will never get out of this one . . . ' - Bill Cambre ATTISL 02272 houxq!45223wc ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 84 15:10:54 EST From: Will Martin (DRXAL-FD) Subject: Start of "Getting Rich By Time Travel" Discussion I noticed the three messages on the subject topic in the last digest; I had submitted the message that started the discussion via USENET net.sf-lovers, and it seems that some of the followups arrived at the gateway to the ARPANET SF-Lovers Digest, but not the original (at least, I haven't seen this in a digest that I recall). So here is a copy of the original: Using time travel as an aid to the practical and mundane aspects of life has always appealed to me; I've read SF in which a housewife time-travels to do her grocery shopping during the Depression, when bargains were BARGAINS, and we've all seen references to the value of tomorrow's Wall Street Journal... However, there are some practical aspects of this that I haven't seen mentioned in SF. They may well have been, but I don't recall reading about them. Exactly what is the best way to carry on time-travel-based commerce? No matter what information you can carry with you, at some time you have to get cash or material of value in the time frame in which you need to make investments or buy goods. This isn't as easy as it sounds... (Aside: a couple assumptions to make the discussion simpler -- 1) The act of travelling in time and moving materials is easy and either free or very cheap -- if it requires enormous energy expenditures, as some have speculated, it becomes so costly as to eliminate the commercial aspects. 2) You can move to any point in space-time, though limited to stay on the planet [arbitrary restriction here]; so you can get from 1979 Cleveland to 1803 Paris with your whiz-bang time machine, without worrying about getting from 1803 Cleveland to 1803 Paris via boat or whatever... 3) You want to keep this somewhat secret -- no coming back in a blaze of glory and saying, "Hi There! I'm from the Twentieth Century and I want to trade these wonderful cassette players and Culture Club tapes for these dingy old statues you have sitting around the Forum...") OK -- here you are in 1984 with your time machine and bank account and microfiche of the Wall Street Journal. You want to go buy Xerox when it was Haloid (or whatever), Polaroid, gold, etc., when it was at its lowest and sell at the highest peak. How do you do it? Just going to the bank and getting a briefcase-full of Federal Reserve Notes isn't going to help -- most of them will date from releases later than the dates you will be going to, and they will be considered very good counterfeits. Most of the things you could buy, take back, and sell for more than you paid for them will be anachronistic, thus violating your secrecy -- the Time Police from 4754 will come and get you, right? This leaves out peddling Walkmen and calculators in 1953. It seems that you will be best off with some sort of basic materials instead. Now, I recall that aluminum was more valuable than gold before the modern refining processes were developed. So you buy aluminum ingots and zip back to Napoleonic France, where you offer to trade this for gold. This should work for a small amount, but the problem is that, since there was so little aluminum and it was high priced, and it isn't very pretty, there's little demand for it. They made table services out of it, for ostentation, but the jewelers and smiths could only sell so many of those; your market gets glutted. Another source of income could be retrieving lost art and historical artifacts just before they were destroyed or lost -- pulling the contents out of the Library at Alexandria microseconds before the flames reach them, for example. A traditional way of avoiding changing the past but recovering from the tragedies of history. But what will you do with the carload of scrolls once you have them? Unless the fact of time travel is known, no one will believe that these new-looking scrolls came from 2000 years back, so how do you sell them? And if you try to sell them in the time when you need current currency to make your investments, you have changed YOUR past. What about land? Well, I could go back to the Pre-Cambrian and plant indestructible claim markers all over Gondwanaland. I'd have to break secrecy, but could I then claim all the continents by right of prior discovery? Somehow, I doubt that I could get the legal system to enforce my claims. So, before this gets any longer, I'll sum up by asking: "How DO I get rich by time travel?" [I just happened to come into possession of a brand-new but hot-wired 3942 Chronocruiser, with bucket seats and a hyperspatial trunk, blue with green trim, and I'm just itching to give it a spin...] Will ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 24-Apr SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #67 *** EOOH *** Date: 24 Apr 84 1307-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #67 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 24 Apr 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 67 Today's Topics: Administrivia - Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net, Books - Heinlein & Lem & V. Vinge, Films - Star Wars, Miscellaneous - Hackers & Get Rich By Time Travel (2 msgs) & Force Fields and Reality (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 23 Apr 84 13:08:33 EST From: Saul Subject: Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net This opus is now available via the ANONYMOUS login of FTP. The file is hitch-hikers-guide-to-the-net.txt. Those of you who do not have access to FTP can send mail to sf-lovers-request@rutgers for a copy. Saul ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 84 20:16:38 EST From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] Subject: Psychics in Heinlein Pax! Uncle! I surrender! I must thank Martin Minow and Andrew Klossner for setting my memory straight as to Heinlein's use of psychics. Among those stories mentioned, that I freely admit myself wrong about, were: Gulf If This Goes On... Methuselah's Children Time Enough For Love Beyond This Horizon Lost Legacy Others mentioned that I would argue about, in no particular order: I Will Fear No Evil: There were two explanations given for the 'communication' between Johann and Eunice: a) Johann is nuts, bonkers, around the bend and imagining it all and b) in some way Eunice is present in all of her body and removing the brain has not removed her personality. This second one seems to be a spinoff of the fact that planaria remember all over themselves. In either case, no psychic abilities are brought out. Stranger in a Strange Land: it is specifically stated that Michael's abilities are the result of knowing more about the fabric of spacetime and the nature of reality, and that this knowledge is teachable once one learns the language. ( I would like to point out that most sciences have their 'own language' which must be learned before one can do anything in that science....it took me about a year to be able to understand 90% of what my hacker friends were talking about). I believe at some point Mike says that if someone prefers to believe that what is being done is psychic, that are welcome to do so, but that they would be wrong. Waldo/Magic, Inc: Waldo draws power and energy from a pathway to another universe; magic is magic, not psychic powers ( I will admit that the difference may be negligible here, but I am not an authority on magic). This one may be debatable. Communicate With Dead in Number of the Beast: If you are referring to the scene where Jake 'talks' to his wife, I think that is stretching it. The scientific method is to create a model of the problem and to manipulate. This can be done with people too; I see no reason to think that Jake is talking to this dead wife's spirit when it is more possible for him to be talking to a mental image. It is a fact that people who are long married can 'predict' each other to that extent. And an ideal model would not have the failing of dying. Everyone has at some point gone through a decision making process where one says "What would so and so do in this situation?" This sounds lots like that. Group Mind In Methuselah's Children: The essence of a mind is contact between all the nerve cells; for all the book says, each body could be an electro-magnetic transceiver on some odd band. I haven't heard of radio waves being classed as extra-sensory.... In all of the above cases, the explanation was either given or implied somehow in the structure of the book (at least to me). I think that application of Occam's Razor finds explanations other that psychic powers for the books I dispute, and have given what I come up with. I'm sorry I have to answer to the digest, but I cannot mail directly out to the net. I hope no one is too bored.... have fun /amqueue ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 20 Apr 1984 14:32-PST Subject: Lem's Solaris -- movie vs. book From: greep@SU-DSN.ARPA (I was out of town for a couple of weeks so this is slightly dated now.) Some years ago Mike Wahrman told me how utterly boring the movie Solaris was, so I never bothered to try to see it or read the book. When I finally did read it, I thought it was quite good, but utterly unsuited for the screen, since it is largely philosophical and there is very little action to be portrayed. So I would suggest not letting the movie (whatever version it may be) deter anyone from reading the book. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 1984 12:25:10 EST From: FF Bottles of Beer on the Wall,... From: Subject: "True Names" to be Novelized Vernor Vinge's "True Names" will soon see re-release in an expanded (read 'novel') form. Artist Bob Walters, who's done a fair amount of work in various magazines (c.f., the illo for Gardner Dozois' Nebula nominee story, "The Peacemaker") and has just finished his stuff for the "Dune Encyclopedia" is doing the wraparound cover and interior work, some of which involved a housemate and I doing the poses for planning photos. The precise publication date isn't set yet, but I'll pass it on when I know it. --Dave Axler ------------------------------ Date: 10 Apr 84 9:40:34-PST (Tue) From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!marla @ Ucb-Vax Subject: SW Trivia Quiz - ANSWERS!!!! --------+==== (light sabre that bug!!) I. AN APOLOGY: I'm sorry this took so long to get posted. First, facilities decided we needed to be moved. It took almost 3 weeks to get the computer terminals installed. Then, just after I had the answers typed in, the system crashed and was down for two days. I finally have enough time to retype this. Please forgive me. II. SCORING: The quiz is worth a total of 47 points as follows: 9 points for #1 (1 for each line, 1 for each speaker,1 for each listner.) 10 points for #2 (same as above + there are two acceptable answers for TESB, if both are given, 1 point bonus) 10 points for #3 (2 each for each correct answer, subtract 1 point for every extra answer) 8 points for #4 (same as above) 10 points for #5. Yes I know this was a trick question. I give an explanation of this question when I give the answers. III. THE QUESTIONS 1. What is the first spoken line in each of the three Star Wars films? Who said it? To whom? 2. What is the last spoken line in each of the three Star Wars films? Who said it? To whom? 3. How many times is the line "I've got a bad feeling about this!" said over the course of the three films? When? By whom? 4. How many times is the line "It's not my fault!" said over the course of the three films? When? By whom? 5. Most people know that James Earl Jones did the voice of Darth Vader, even though David Prowse played the part. However, there is one scene where David Prowse's voice comes through. When? What does he say? IV. THE ANSWERS NOTE: ANH refers to A New Hope, TESB refers to The Empire Strikes Back, ROTJ refers to Return of the Jedi. 1. ANH: "Did you hear that? They'v shut down the main reactor!"C3P0 to R2D2. TESB: "Echo 3 to Echo 7, Han ol' buddy!" Luke to Han ROTJ: "Command Station, this is ST321 code clearance blue. We are starting our approach, deactivate the security shield." Darth Vader's shuttle pilot to energy shield command station. 2. ANH: "He'll be alright" Luke to C3P0 TESB: "Owww!" Luke to medic droid OR "Take care you two, May the Force be with you!" Luke to Lando and Chewie. ROTJ: "He's my brother!" Leia to Han. 3. (5 times total) 1. ANH, Luke when the Falcon is being dragged into the Death Star. 2. ANH, Han in the trash compactor. 3. TESB, Leia when down the throat of the "asteroid creature". 4. ROTJ, C3P0 just after entering Jabba's castle. 5. ROTJ, Han about to be roasted by the Ewoks. 4. (4 times total) 1. TESB, Han after leaving the asteroid belt when the Falcon won't go into hyperdrive. 2. TESB, same as above. (The line is "It's not my fault...It's NOT My Fault!!!!") 3. TESB, Lando upon leaving Bespin when the Falcon won't go hyper. 4. ROTJ, Han to Jabba just after being thawed. 5. (10 points) This happened during the big fight scene between Luke and Darth on Bespin in TESB. Twice, David Prowse lets out a very audible "Damn", once when he gets spun around after missing Luke, and once when he gets pushed off a platform. After seeing the footage, the powers that be decided that the lines really didn't fit in, so they were never over dubbed. But, David had spoken so loud, they are not completely covered by the music. May the Farce Be With You, Marla S. Baer ssc-vax!marla ------------------------------ Date: 13 Apr 84 14:23:00-PST (Fri) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!keller @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: "Press Enter []" by John Varley In "the Hacker's Dictionary" it says about the word FOO: "A hacker avoids using 'foo' as the real name of anything. Indeed, a standard convention is that any file with 'foo' in its name is temporary and can be deleted on sight." Was this a clue to the fate of Lisa Foo? Half baked brains are like a fallen souffle. I maintain that the story is a crock. BTW, when I was in grade school I thought of a Frob as a little medallion that construction workers wore from their belt showing a picture of something like a backhoe or bulldozer. -Shaun ...uiucdcs!uicsl!keller (from the birthplace of HAL) ------------------------------ Date: 19 Apr 1984 13:52 EST (Thu) From: Paul Fuqua Subject: How to get rich with a time machine I recall a story that involved a man who had in some unspecified way made contact with himself 2 days in the past and 2 days in the future. By maintaining this contact over a long period, he made a comfortable living through the same modest investments someone else suggested. Another story involved some mysterious gentleman who appeared in the 1400s and invested some semi-trivial amount, which grew via compound interest and prudent manipulations until it included most of the property in Europe. The use to which this massive fortune was put? Paying for the resources necessary to time-jump back to the 1400s.... pf ------------------------------ Date: Thu 19 Apr 84 15:02:03-EST From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA Subject: Getting Rich by time Travel Hey, this is a great new topic! here are a few thoughts: 1. There are LOTS of commodities that are cheap now and were expensive a few years (or centuries) back. For ease of transport, quality, profit, and untraceability I would choose spices: cloves, pepper, cinnamon, ... were all at one time worth more than their weight in gold. You could also try silk, wire, thread, needles, eyeglasses, ... 2. There are several things expensive now that were cheap then, for instance artworks by unappreciated geniuses (you buy a dozen Impressionist works for $10 apiece, stuff them away somewhere to age, zap forward and retrieve them). 3. But for my preference, the ideal cheap commodity in earlier times was (sorry, folks) - SLAVES. Imagine setting up in Tuscany round about 50 AD, with land, a villa, and enough cheap labor to live very comfortably. Of course, you come back here to have your teeth fixed now and then, buy another bag of pepper corns, and quietly dispose of another gold bar. If we are to judge by Gibbon, you would have a better life than in +XX New York City (apart from those nasty Time Patrolmen on their funny bikes) 4. A final thought - why pay taxes? You set up a few dummy people, and whenever one of them gets audited, just go back and file a return for him/her! Creating birth certificates and other documents should also be no great trouble. Robert Firth ------------------------------ Date: 15 Apr 84 19:54:00-PST (Sun) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!mcewan @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Force Field My impression is that the previous writer (Allan Pratt?) implied the reason the force field must be "projected" was some law of physics, not the particular technology. Surely we must assume that physical laws are the same everywhere and everywhen (at least in our universe...), otherwise this whole discussion is pointless. So if Kirk et al can do it, the Empire can as well. I don't know how to tell you this, but I think you should know that Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, Captain Kirk, the Enterprise, the Death Star, etc. DON'T ACTUALLY EXIST! They are all imaginary. All of the episodes of Star Trek, including the movies, and all three Star Wars movies are FICTION! Moreover, they are SCIENCE FICTION, which means that the writers included in the stories technology that depends on physical laws that have not yet been discovered. Since these "laws" were only postulated by writers who had no way of testing whether they were actual laws of the universe, it is possible (almost certain, in fact) that some of them are not really laws of our universe. However, in order to enjoy the movies, we (or at least I) like to pretend that there is a universe in which the story takes place that has these physical laws. Also, please note the since Star Trek and Star Wars were created by different people, they take place in different universes with different laws (this is why the Enterprise didn't help destroy the Death Star, as you may have noticed.) I hope that this explanation was not too technical for you to understand. If you have any more questions, find a 12 year old science fiction fan and have him explain it to you. Scott McEwan pur-ee!uiucdcs!mcewan "Hitler was an idealist."" ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 84 6:24:24-PST (Tue) From: ihnp4!houxm!houxz!disc @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Force Fields and Reality Does your machine REALLY eat lines? Mine only gets parts of I don't know how to tell you this, but I think you should know that Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, Captain Kirk, the Enterprise, the Death Star, etc. DON'T ACTUALLY EXIST! They are all imaginary. All of the episodes of Star Trek, including the movies, and all three Star Wars movies are FICTION! Nawwww, I don't believe it for a minute. Next thing, you'll be trying to convince me that Santa and the Easter Bunny don't exist...Sheeeeeit! ...we (or at least I) like to pretend that there is a universe in which the story takes place that has these physical laws. Some of us also like to pretend that there are RATIONAL explanations for what are obviously oversights and inconsistencies by authors who don't bother to look ahead to the ramifications of their plots (an impossibility given the sharpies in this group). We delight in trying to come up with these explanations as an exercise in imagination and (in the case of differing viewpoints) the fine art of persuasion. I seem to recall an article in either this group or net.startrek some months ago which defends this feeling more eloquently than I can. I like to call the practice "suspension of suspension of disbelief" I hope that this explanation was not too technical for you to understand. If you have any more questions, find a 12 year old science fiction fan and have him explain it to you. I won't comment here except to say I resemble that remark (you can only take sarcasm so far...) SJBerry ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 84 22:04:59-PST (Tue) From: ihnp4!inuxc!iuvax!notes @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Force Fields and Reality I agree with what my opponent says. I can only add that I might sue this infidel for definition of character. -- Allan Pratt ...ihnp4!inuxc!iuvax!apratt ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 24-Apr SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #68 *** EOOH *** Date: 24 Apr 84 1402-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #68 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 24 Apr 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 68 Today's Topics: Books - Book Reviews, Miscellaneous - Time Travel & FTL & Mxyzptlk ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Apr 84 22:24:31-PST (Fri) From: decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Beneath the Son of the Attack of the 50-Foot Book Reviews Even more book reviews. Again, '*' marks a collection or anthology. Presenting: CHRISTINE. Stephen King. DANSE MACABRE. Stephen King. PET SEMATARY. Stephen King. COURTSHIP RITE. Donald Kingsbury. THE MAN IN THE TREE. Damon Knight. HIS MASTER'S VOICE. Stanislaw Lem. *MORE TALES OF PIRX THE PILOT. Stanislaw Lem. TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON. Roberta A. MacAvoy. CHRISTINE. Stephen King. Signet, c1983. The original idea of this novel: Christine is a haunted car. Not just any car, of course, but a 1958 Plymouth Fury. Painted red, of course. The car is possessed by the ghost of its first owner, Roland LeBay, Jr., a man of unbelievably petty, scheming evil who reminds you of every asshole you ever met. LeBay lives just long enough to sell the car to young Arnie Cunningham. Arnie's best friend, Dennis Guilder, is forced to watch as the car slowly takes over the mind of its young owner, first transforming him from a luckless nerd into the boyfriend of the prettiest girl in high school, then turning him into a... well, that would give it away. The characterization and setting in this novel are more engrossing and effective than the horror; I think the book is weak but not unlikeable. While King never manages to overcome the intrinsic silliness of the idea of a car that drives around by itself killing people, the victims are nicely drawn and feel like human beings, the kids you knew (or wanted to know) in high school. DANSE MACABRE. Stephen King. Berkley, c1981, minor revisions 1983. This book is King's affectionate tribute to horror movies and horror literature, covering everything up until 1980; the minor revisions are due to some help from Dennis Etchison to correct some of the goofs in the original hardcover edition. The style is King's usual down-home tone, breezy and conversational, even when the subject matter is serious. The book first discusses the traditional horror themes ('and there, hanging from the doorhandle is this razor-sharp hook!'), then it sees how they apply to the genres of early radio shows, horror movies ('The Horror Movie as Junk Food'), television ('The Glass Teat, or, This Monster Was Brought to You by Gainesburgers'), and literature. King reviews some classic books and movies and tries to explain why they work; these reviews are punctuated with lots of anecdotes and trivia which will please many horror buffs. If dry literary analyses bore you then you shouldn't be afraid of this book, but if they are your stock in trade then beware because King has boundless contempt for that sort of thing. On the other hand, King's taste is not as low as he likes to claim it is, so it's hard to be offended. PET SEMATARY. Stephen King. Doubleday, c1983 (hardcover). I borrowed this book since according to LOCUS the paperback edition won't be out until September... This should excuse the vagueness about the details, since I can't look them up. This novel was originally written in 1979, and from the plot it might have been written in 1879 -- it follows a classic horror plot. A doctor and his family move to Maine where the doctor takes up a practice as an on-duty physician at a small college. Their house is built on a noisy main road, but it is only a short walk over the hill before one reaches impenetrably deep woods. At the end of the trail, just before the woods start, there is a small pet cemetery (the sign has been misspelled by the children who erected it). Despite a disquieting incident on the doctor's first day on his job, the family has a pleasant time, until the family cat is run over by one of the trucks which run down the road to the cement plant day and night. The old man who lives across the road persuades the doctor to come with him at midnight and bury the cat in the REAL pet cemetery, which lies in the heart of the woods and is protected by monstrous Indian ghosts and demons. The next day, the cat is alive again... although it is not quite the same as it was. Then something happens to one of the man's children... I don't want to give too much away, but this would make a great B movie, one of those little flicks which you don't see except late at night on channel 44, and only you have seen it often enough to sing its praises. It would be an ordinary B movie except for what happens on the last page, nay, the last few LINES, of the book, so if you are in the (filthy) habit of reading the last pages of a book first, you are not likely to enjoy PET SEMATARY. Buy the paperback. COURTSHIP RITE. Donald Kingsbury. Pocket, c1982. This book was originally serialized in Analog, and it really fits the Analog mold despite the apparent 'soft' subject matter. The planet Geta is beautiful but deadly: it has a breathable atmosphere, plenty of water and a biosphere at the level of grasses and insects, but all of the native animals and plants are toxic to human beings. Only a few Earth biota can survive such as bees and wheat, which enable human beings to eke out a marginal existence, subsisting on Earth plants, Earth insects and the only Earth mammal that exists -- man. Children are raised for food. Those who are destined to become meals are selected by elimination in contests of intelligence and aggression, thereby improving the gene pool. If you can stomach this premise, the rest of the book is quite entertaining. The basic story is about the group marriage of the maran-Kaiel, who are forced by the head of the Kaiel clan to accept a different woman in place of the one whom they had selected to fill out their 6th position. The 'courtship rite' of the title is the game which is played between the group-marriage and its 'fiancee' -- if she survives it, she is deemed eligible for marriage. The poor woman is totally unprepared for the suit of the family, as she is both a vegetarian (i.e. a non-cannibal, an oddity) and an atheist (someone who does not believe that the orbiting colony spaceship is God). Much of the complicated plot is concerned with the technological renaissance of the Getans and with their devious political dealings. Some of the book is utopian philosophy as well. I didn't feel bad about the philosophy (although I think it is unrealistic) but others may have trouble with it. Definitely worth reading. THE MAN IN THE TREE. Damon Knight. Berkley, c1984. The title of this book of course refers to Jesus Christ, but perhaps in a different way than you might expect. Damon Knight postulates a man who is born with the ability to work miracles, and asks the question, 'What would this man's life be like?' Gene Anderson is born in the tiny village of Dog River, Oregon, and comes to realize at the age of four that other children cannot find the place where a beetle might have turned left instead of right and make two beetles. No one believes him when he claims this ability, and out of shame he conceals it. At the age of nine he is falsely accused of killing the son of the village police chief and he runs away. By this time he realizes that he is going to grow up to be outrageously tall, and he stands out so easily in a crowd that when the police chief comes for his revenge he finds it difficult to hide. Eventually he joins a carnival, but the police chief continues to chase him. In the end Gene is forced to confront his tormentor and in doing so confronts his peculiar power. The resolution is not entirely satisfying (a friend of mine complained that he expected a tragic end and was disappointed, in a curious way) but the book as a whole is still very good. HIS MASTER'S VOICE. Stanislaw Lem. Harcourt, Brace, Jovanovich, c1968, English translation by Michael Kandel c1983 (hardcover -- I understand the paperback is out now). Faren Miller in LOCUS called this book 'more a readable meditation than a novel' and after reading the book I would have to add my qualified agreement. The book is a philosophical retrospection by one of the key members of the 'His Master's Voice' project, the mathematician Peter Hogarth. The HMV project was secretly founded by the US government to analyze and (if possible) translate a signal discovered in modulated neutrino emissions from deep space. The military hoped to extract technology which could be used for new weapons against the Russians. Hogarth and the other scientists held the military in contempt, and sought instead to interpret the message and find a way to understand the Senders. Several strange results came from the study of the signal. One result was a peculiar protoplasm-like material created by irradiating a chemical soup with the signal. This goo had the peculiar characteristic of sustaining itself not through normal biological energy cycles, but through atomic reactions. Hogarth and friends then discovered that the material had the capacity for causing remote nuclear reactions: an explosion near it released its energy at a distance. The possibility arose that detonating a hydrogen bomb in a roomful of the protoplasm in Nevada might cause Moscow to be destroyed. Hogarth and his colleagues had to decide: what should they tell the military? Besides this ethical problem, Hogarth also considers the question of whether there really were any Senders... This novel is very difficult but I found it to be rewarding. *MORE TALES OF PIRX THE PILOT. Stanislaw Lem. HBJ, English translations by Louis Iribarne and Michael Kandel, c1976, c1982. The Pirx stories are much more playful than HMV, but still show a serious undercurrent. Pirx is a spaceship pilot at a time when the solar system is well explored enough to be routine and other systems are just becoming known, but there are still plenty of surprises at home. The first story, 'Pirx's Tale', is a fish story about finding and losing the only alien spaceship ever seen. All the remaining stories deal with robots, a continuing preoccupation of Lem's, and in particular they deal with malfunctions of robots as seen from a human (Pirx's) viewpoint. 'The Accident' occurs on an Earthlike planet that is just being opened for exploration; the exploration party's robot disappears and Pirx must determine why it left as well as where it went. 'The Hunt' occurs on the moon when a mining robot goes insane and begins attacking transport vehicles and communications lines as well as lunar ore; Pirx is recruited to help track it down and destroy it, but in the process discovers that even a mere mining robot can be more intelligent than a human being. 'The Inquest' takes Pirx to Saturn on a trip with six crewmen, some of which are androids being tested as replacements for human crew -- but Pirx doesn't know which are which. An accident occurs: who is responsible? The answer is surprising. In 'Ananke' a robot-controlled spacecraft causes a disaster on Mars when it suddenly reverses thrust during a landing approach because its meteorite-detection algorithm determined that Mars was a meteorite and hence it must take evasive action; Pirx must figure out how the programming error occurred. I liked these stories better than the original TALES OF PIRX THE PILOT. TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON. Roberta A. MacAvoy. Bantam, c1983. This book is MacAvoy's first published novel, but she had written more than a dozen novels prior to this one without getting them published. TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON still reads like a first novel, however. A slightly dotty woman comes to San Francisco to look for her daughter, who is in some sort of trouble and has disappeared. She meets a reclusive Chinese man who lives in the penthouse of her hotel, and enlists his help in searching for her daughter. It turns out that the daughter is a CS graduate from Stanford who has gotten into murky dealings involving the penetration of security on bank computers. The fantasy element is that the Chinese man may (or may not) be a Black Dragon in human form, who is searching for a human who can show him the Tao. This curious pair travels around Palo Alto and San Francisco doing detective work and getting into the usual thriller situations, and falling in love. The reviews on the cover of TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON are overkill for a book that is nice but not very substantial. Donn Seeley UCSD Chemistry Dept. 32 52' 30"N 117 14' 25"W (619) 452-4016 ucbvax!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn sdcsvax!sdchema!donn@nosc.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 84 15:59 EST From: Denber.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Subject: TZ Time Travel Time and time travel were also the subjects of more than a few Twilight Zone episodes. Unfortunately, I don't have my handy-dandy TZ Episode Guide with me, but here's a few that come to mind: * The man with the slight limp who visits his childhood home where he scares himself as a child causing him to fall off the merry-go-round thus hurting his leg. * The man who goes back in time to try to prevent Lincoln's assassination. * The 707 that goes through a time warp and tries to land at La Guardia in the 1930's. * Kick the Can - Old folks become kids again. * The evil linotype machine - whatever headlines you typed on it were sure to happen. * The camera that took pictures of the future. * The stop watch that could stop time (my favorite - I sure could have used that when I had a homework assignment due in two hours that I hadn't started yet). There must be more . . . And let's not forget that great Outer Limits episode which featured an *evolution* machine. You could hop in and depending on how the dials were set, you could regress to a Neanderthal, an ape, a lawyer, or going the other way you could emerge with a cranium reminiscent of the Cone Heads (late of Saturday Night Live). They don't make em like that anymore. - Michel Speaker to Silicon ------------------------------ Date: Mon 23 Apr 84 20:49:41-EST From: Bernard M. Gunther Subject: Faster than light travel I remember a short story a few years ago of which the gist was that hyperspace was possible, but the limiting speed there was less than the speed of light. If this is the case, if we can transfer between spaces without losing our forward velocity, we can go to such a speed in our dimension that is faster than the speed of light in the other dimension, switch dimensions, accelerate in the other dimension until you have passed the speed of light in our dimension and then switch back to ours again. Since the formulas [Lorenz Transformations] work at speeds greater than the speed of light, there shouldn't be any really problem. This avoids all the trouble of having to pass the speed of light in our dimension and still allows us to go faster than light by bypassing the region just around the light barrier. Bernie Gunther (se.bmg@ee) ------------------------------ Date: Mon 23 Apr 84 22:13:43-EST From: JACOB@CMU-CS-C.ARPA Subject: Mxyzptlk I wouldn't bet my life on this, but I would be willing to bet, say, YOUR life: The first time Mxyzptlk appeared in Superman, his name was spelled MxyzTPlk. After very few (possibly 1) appearances, his name was changed to MxyzPTlk. Somewhere along the line, his appearance changed drastically; possibly at the same time. The current explanation is that Mxyzptlk (modern spelling and dress) is the Earth-1 version while Mxyxtplk (original spelling and dress) is the Earth-2 version. [Earth-1 and Earth-2 are parallel earth's created to explain all of the discrepencies that cropped up in that particular line of comics in 45+ years.] It is interesting to note that both Mxyz's are supposed to be from 'another dimension' (name GC'd), presumably different ones for each imp, and yet always visit the correct earths. Just thought I'd add to the confusion. What ever happened to comics-lovers? Jacob Butcher ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 25-Apr SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #69 *** EOOH *** Date: 25 Apr 84 1257-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #69 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 25 Apr 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 69 Today's Topics: Books - Bradbury & Dick & More Book Reviews & Author Enquiries Answered, Television - The Return of V!, Miscellaneous - Getting Rich By Time Travel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 25 Apr 84 9:08:53 CST From: Will Martin -- DRXAL-RI Subject: "Bradbury 13" radio series The local (St. Louis, MO) public radio stations have been carrying a new NPR-produced radio drama series of Bradbury short stories called "Bradbury 13" -- 13 episodes in all. One station has aired 3 of them so far, the other just started with the first one. When I first heard of this, I was delighted -- I really enjoy good radio productions, and many of the NPR series have been excellent (Star Wars, Joe Frank, the BBC Peter Wimsey programs, etc.). Boy, was I disappointed! So far, I have heard three of these Bradbury productions, and they are BAD! Slickly produced, technically excellent, and sonically clear, but irritating and unsatisfying to hear. The first, a non-sf story called "The Ravine", is about several women during a mass-murderer scare (like the Hillside Strangler or similar). The main character was so unsympathetic with such an irritating voice that this listener wished she would get attacked and eliminated by the murderer after 5 minutes of the half-hour program. She didn't, unfortunately. I've repressed the second episode completely; can't even remember the title. The third, Bradbury's famous sf story, "The Veldt", was better than the preceeding two, but still so far inferior to the printed word and unpleasant to listen to that I have no desire to hear it again. (I had started to tape all these, but am taping over the previous episodes as I have no desire to keep them.) I will continue to listen to these in the hope that some jewel will be found amongst the garbage, but my expectations fall steadily. I am submitting this to reassure any sf-lovers readers who may have read or heard of this series, but not had a chance to hear the episodes, that they should not feel too bad about missing this. There probably is somebody out there who has been listening to these programs and thinks they are the greatest thing since sliced bread, but, to me at least, these are real losers. Will ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 1984 12:16-EST From: Bob.Colwell@CMU-CS-G.ARPA Subject: Man in the High Castle Have you ever been with a crowd of people whom you didn't know all that well, and somebody tells a joke, and everyone thinks it's very funny except you, and you just put this lame half-smile on your face and hope nobody notices? I just read Philip Dick's "The Man in the High Castle" and got just that feeling. Why is this book his "greatest masterpiece"? What was the point? Somebody please tell me -- I had to force myself through 3/4's of the book, and only the last 3 pages were interesting. And I still didn't understand. The picture on the cover was nice, though. Oh, yeah, one more thing. What makes this book science fiction? (Other than the label on the front cover that says "Berkley (sic) science fiction") Bob (Bob.Colwell@cmu-cs-g.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 84 22:16:00-PST (Fri) From: decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Son of the Attack of the 50-Foot Book Reviews I hate to provide evidence that I have any spare time but I had to get some more book reviews off my chest. This time the reviews come without silly ratings points -- back to the old UC Santa Cruz format. I still use an asterisk to mark collections or anthologies, though. In this episode: AGAINST INFINITY. Gregory Benford. NO ENEMY BUT TIME. Michael Bishop. *DARK COMPANIONS. Ramsey Campbell. THE UNTELEPORTED MAN. Philip K. Dick. THE SILENT GONDOLIERS. William Goldman (writing as S. Morgenstern). A STORM OF WINGS. M. John Harrison. RIDDLEY WALKER. Russell Hoban. AGAINST INFINITY. Gregory Benford. Pocket, c1983. Benford's last novel, TIMESCAPE, won an award, and this novel is a strong contender. Manuel Lopez is born at Sidon Settlement on Ganymede at a time when Ganymede is being terraformed. From the time he is a young boy, Manuel finds himself caught up in the quest for a great motile alien relic, called the Aleph. Benford does an excellent job of rendering the changing ecology and sociology of Ganymede and the chase scenes are really beautiful. The only problem with the story is that it devotes its time to Manuel's obsession with the Aleph at the expense of enlarging on its interesting ideas of the development of society in the spacefaring age. Still a very good book. (By the way, the title seems a bit dumb unless you make the connection with the Borges story, 'The Aleph'. In comparison with Borges's Aleph, Benford's Aleph is a bit clunky, but still serviceable.) NO ENEMY BUT TIME. Michael Bishop. Pocket, c1982. Despite the rave reviews on its cover, this novel leaves me feeling somewhat uncomfortable. John Monegal has dreamed of peculiar animals in a strange, African setting since he was a child. When he is an adult, he discovers that his dreams are faithful reproductions of conditions in the Pleistocene, back when humans were hominids. He is sent on a field expedition into the past (using a method reminiscent of Jack Finney's TIME AND AGAIN) where he meets and joins a band of protohumans. The tale of his gradual acceptance into this culture and eventual mating with the dominant female is intertwined with the tale of his peculiar childhood; both experiences require the overcoming of racial (species?) barriers. The narrative is graceful and occasionally charming, but it is sometimes difficult to follow because of the split into childhood flashbacks and adult experiences. Another problem is that the story is weak on science -- perhaps Bishop decided that since time-travel is unscientific anyway, it doesn't matter how silly the 'science' gets. And as long as I'm complaining, the description of the government of Bishp's mythical African nation is parody and jars with the rest of the book. Not bad but I was hoping for better. *DARK COMPANIONS. Ramsey Campbell. Macmillan, c1982. Ramsey Campbell is a British horror writer whose stories have such a thick and menacing atmosphere that the very words want to crawl off the page and choke you to death. This collection (which I bought remaindered in hardback, sigh) contains stories from 1973 to 1980, including three award winners, 'In the Bag', 'The Chimney' and 'Mackintosh Willy'. Campbell's writing style is wonderful; it reminds me of one genre of Fritz Leiber's stories (e.g. 'Black Glass', 'A Bit of the Dark World') where the horror comes as much from the way in which the story is told as in the content. All of the stories are very, very nasty and one has to be brave to read them on a dark night. 'Down There' will make you nervous about working late in a dark and empty building (which I do often); 'The Little Voice' will give you a good idea why it's not so nice to be schizophrenic; 'The Depths' explains why newspaper articles so often sound like horror stories; and 'The Companion', a great story, is about a man's last carnival ride. These stories are so well done that they've changed my opinion of the horror genre. [Why is it so hard to find Campbell's novels in this country? PS, I can't resist quoting Stephen King: '"The Companion" may be the best horror tale to be written in English in the last thirty years'...] THE UNTELEPORTED MAN. Philip K. Dick. Berkley, c1966 and c1983. This reprinting of an 18-year old Dick novel is just a part of a renaissance in Dick reprints that might have raised Dick out of poverty were he is still living. In the coming year or so we should see editions of Dick novels like CLANS OF THE ALPHANE MOON (funny), THE PENULTIMATE TRUTH (sad), TIME OUT OF JOINT (scary) and THE MAN WHOSE TEETH WERE ALL EXACTLY ALIKE (previously unpublished). Of course not all of Dick's books are equally good, since they were frequently written in a single draft over the course of a month or two, pounded out to make a few bucks to pay alimony and buy food. THE UNTELEPORTED MAN is one of Dick's lesser novels. Apart from the fact that this edition is published from a manuscript that is missing four pages (introducing breaks in the text with 'See note on page V', one such break in a really critical part of the climax), the book suffers from being very uneven and confusing. The excess population of Earth is being teleported to a colony planet. Rachmael ben Applebaum is the bankrupt owner of the last spaceship company, and he wants to prove that teleportees are really being transmitted to nowhere; they cease to exist. What actually happens, of course, is a very disconcerting LSD trip. The book never really coheres, and the style undergoes an abrupt change in the middle which leads one to wonder about Dick's own chemical intake. You probably shouldn't buy this unless you are a real Dick collector. THE SILENT GONDOLIERS. William Goldman (writing as S. Morgenstern). Del Rey, c1983 (hardcover). According to the biography: 'Many critics of European literature in general and Florinese prose in particular rate S. Morgenstern as a modern master. He is known in this country primarily for his classic tale of true love and high adventure, THE PRINCESS BRIDE.' THE SILENT GONDOLIERS is not (alas) a sequel to THE PRINCESS BRIDE, but it is a parody of historical romances in a similar vein. Once upon a time, all Venetian gondoliers sang; they were such good singers they made Caruso embarrassed to even chirp. Along came Luigi, the kid with the goony smile who, given a boat and a canal, could beat absolutely anyone in any contest of gondola piloting. Alas, Luigi is tone deaf... Will he ever find fame and fortune as a gondolier? THE SILENT GONDOLIERS is as funny as THE PRINCESS BRIDE but it lacks the manic pace of invention that was one of the latter book's great attractions. It's still worth buying, though (and it has very nice illustrations). A STORM OF WINGS. M. John Harrison. Pocket, c1980. I bought this book on the recommendation of Algis Budrys in the F&SF book review -- I find that I often agree with him. Not this time, however. This book has to be the worst-written excuse for pseudo-literary trash I have read in years. The story, as near as I can make it out, concerns the city of Viriconium at a far future time when Earth culture has degenerated into a feudal society. So-called reborn men were preserved at a past time and have been resurrected to try and save the current world, but unfortunately the resurrection damaged their psyches in such a way that they are able to do little more than wander around mumbling incoherent bits of meaningless poetry. Two reborns, a dwarf, a ghost, an absent-minded wizard and a (well, relatively) normal man undertake to save reality from an invasion of insectile aliens from an alternate universe. Harrison's main problem is that he can't write dialogue; all his characters act like they have speech impediments. His descriptions are sometimes pretty in a poetic way, but he is so generous with bizarre metaphors and odd punctuation that his narrative often reads like extracts from a freshman creative writing class. Miss this one. RIDDLEY WALKER. Russell Hoban. Washington Square Press, c1980 (trade). This is a book in the Post-Holocaust Fable genre, with the curious distinction that it is written entirely in post-holocaust dialect. In plot and setting and mood it reminds me somewhat of John Crowley's ENGINE SUMMER. Riddley Walker is the son of the village 'connexion man' or shaman. His father dies in an accident while helping to excavate buried metal from the old times, and Riddley, at the age of 12, suddenly finds that he is the village's new connexion man. But when he is forced to go back to digging metal for the local warlord, Riddley rebels and runs off to join the Pack, a roving tribe of (apparently) telepathic dogs. He has many adventures and is involved in an effort to recreate the '1 Big 1', the explosive which destroyed the old civilization of 'Inland'. This is all hard to follow, mainly because the story is grittily realistic in that it is the first person narrative of a twelve year old who uses a language barely recognizable as English. The language is actually easier to follow than the symbolism, which is awfully heavy at times. But in general I liked it, although it is definitely not recommended for people who hate John Crowley's writing. Donn Seeley UCSD Chemistry Dept. 32 52' 30"N 117 14' 25"W (619) 452-4016 ucbvax!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn sdcsvax!sdchema!donn@nosc.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Tue 24 Apr 84 19:04:07-EST From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA Subject: Author Enquiries Responses to recent Author Enquiries: 1. The story about the man who was telepathically in contact with his past and future selves is Now +n Now -n by Robert Silverberg. My copy is in Nova 2, edited by Harry Harrison. 2. The story about the man who invested enough money in the past to pay for his trip back there is Compounded Interest by Mack Reynolds. My copy is in SF - the Best of the Best, ed Judith Merrill, but the citation is (c) 1956 Fantasy House. Most of us as schoolboys calculated the value of "Caesar's penny", invested on his visit in 55 BC an some trivial rate of compound interest. However, the seminal story is of course H G Wells' When The Sleeper Wakes. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 1984 19:08-EST From: Edward.Tecot@CMU-CS-H.ARPA Subject: V is back! Here in Pittsburgh, I noticed an ad for a new SF series on TV yesterday. I got really excited, thinking "this is neat stuff!", but, boy was I excited at the end of the ad (which lasted >2 minutes by the way), when I found out it was the sequel to V. It is called, "V - The Final Battle" and will be airing in about 2 weeks. (I don't recall exactly when) Keep your eyes peeled. _emt ------------------------------ From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Date: 24 Apr 84 9:04:01 EST Subject: Buy a sheet of Zepps... Good Lord, an opportunity to weld SF and stamp collecting, my two most incompatible hobbies... Hey guys, forget selling aluminum to Napoleon and staking claim to Gondwanaland. It's much easier than that: Prowl the hamfests and computer shows and buy up a hundred or so 8080A chips with 1974/1975 build dates on them. These days you can get them for a buck apiece or less. Hop into your whatchamacallit and land in mid-1975. Call a few electronics parts brokers and offer to sell at $150-$170 per. You'll get it; street price back then was in excess of $220 apiece. This nets you about $15,000 1975 dollars. Now spend a day or so in downtown Chicago munching burgers and going from bank to bank buying and selling $50 and $100 bills until you change your hoard into series 1930 bills. I remember buying a typewriter in 1971 with four $100 bills, two of which were series 1930. This makes it unnecessary to trade in modern bills for diamonds or somesuch. Now the coup de grace: Buzz back to 1930 and hit a few major metro post offices, buying up sheets of the Graf Zeppelin airmail stamps. Get about fifty of the $1.30 denomination (fifty sheets, that is) and about 35 of the $2.60 denomination. That will about exhaust your $15,000. Now come home. Fly to Switzerland and put ONE of those sheets up for auction with a Swiss auction house. It should realize about half a million dollars at auction, as I have never heard of a full mint sheet of Zepps surviving to the present. Buy a modest Swiss villa and put the rest in a bank. When the money runs low, auction off another one. It's all done anonymously, and of course the second and subsequent sheets won't realize as much as the first one, and in a few years the market for Zepps won't be what it used to be. But I think that would make me pretty happy. I'd even get a chance to put one of the guldurned things in my stamp album... --Jeff Duntemann duntemann.wbst@xerox ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 26-Apr SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #70 *** EOOH *** Date: 26 Apr 84 1124-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #70 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 26 Apr 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 70 Today's Topics: SPECIAL ISSUE - More Book Reviews ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Apr 84 22:45:40-PST (Fri) From: decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Return of the Son of the Attack of the 50-Foot Book Reviews Subject: (in 3-D) Yet more book reviews. I suppose I should remind everybody that the stupid asterisks mark collections or anthologies. Some people don't like to be kept guessing, so: FEVRE DREAM. George R. R. Martin. THE ANUBIS GATES. Tim Powers. *SAN DIEGO LIGHTFOOT SUE AND OTHER STORIES. Tom Reamy. THE WILD SHORE. Kim Stanley Robinson. THE SEX SPHERE. Rudy Rucker. THE VOID CAPTAIN'S TALE. Norman Spinrad. *GENE WOLFE'S BOOK OF DAYS. Gene Wolfe. *THE WOLFE ARCHIPELAGO. Gene Wolfe. FEVRE DREAM. George R. R. Martin. Pocket, c1982. Haven't vampires been beaten to death over the last several years, what with 'SALEM'S LOT, GHOST STORY, THE VAMPIRE TAPESTRY and other novels repeatedly dragging the poor creatures from their graves for one more dance? FEVRE DREAM is at least a decidedly different vampire novel. Although it follows the recent convention of treating vampires as being unsupernatural creatures (in FEVRE DREAM we find that vampires avoid the sun because they get terrible sunburns, they don't turn into bats and they are long-lived but mortal) this novel goes further in that it gives a glimpse of what vampire society would be like. In the year 1857, Captain Abner Marsh is hired by one Joshua York to commission and then captain the fastest and fanciest riverboat ever to sail the Mississippi, the FEVRE DREAM. York's peculiar nocturnal habits eventually lead Marsh to suspect that the reclusive financier is a vampire. Marsh confronts him, and instead of being attacked and disposed of, Marsh learns that York is a kind of vampire vegetarian -- he has discovered a compound which when ingested by a vampire prevents him or her from lusting after blood. York, it seems, is on an idealistic quest to meet all the vampires in America and convince them to give up killing humans for their blood. Unfortunately for both York and Marsh, there are vampires who kill less for nutrition than for sport... Martin does a good job of rendering the period atmosphere and of stirring up suspense, and the depiction of vampires as real creatures is the best I've read in the genre. A fun book to read. THE ANUBIS GATES. Tim Powers. Ace, 1983. This book is impossible to describe. I will make a stab at it, but failure is predestined... Suppose that reality is determined by what people believe. In the past, say, there really were vast and powerful gods such as Horus and Ra and Anubis, but their powers have dwindled over time until they are almost insignificant. Yet suppose that you are a follower of the ancient gods, and you have discovered a spell that may allow you to travel back in time to the days of the gods' greatness. Magic is almost dead, but in one last gasp you manage to open a hole to the past... and that's when things begin to go wrong. Instead of opening a conduit to 4000 BC, you have blasted time with a shotgun, so it is full of holes and creatures from various times begin popping up inappropriately. Now, imagine that you are Brendan Doyle, a professor of English at Cal State Fullerton, who is asked by a mysterious millionaire to give a private lecture on Samuel Taylor Coleridge only to find that part of your task is to escort paying visitors to see the REAL Coleridge lecture in 1810. After you arrive in 19th century England, wouldn't you be just the least bit tempted to stay behind and fool around? The fun begins when Doyle is abducted by agents of the Egyptian sorcerers, who think that Doyle can help them achieve their real goal of destroying the present reality and returning the ancient gods to power... The rest of the novel is one pulp thriller scene after another, and the plot twists come so fast and so inventively that the reader gets carried away despite the preposterousness of the premises. If you don't require every book you read to add to your understanding of the meaning of life, you'll get much pleasure out of THE ANUBIS GATES. *SAN DIEGO LIGHTFOOT SUE AND OTHER STORIES. Tom Reamy. Ace, c1979. Tom Reamy died at the age of 42 in 1977, leaving behind one novel, the intriguing but flawed BLIND VOICES, and one story collection, this one. The collection is also flawed -- the biggest flaw is the sick Harlan Ellison introduction. I used to like Ellison's introductions in DV, but this introduction is just terrible. If you ignore the introduction there are still a few problems but the good parts are really good. The first story, 'Twilla', is about a mysterious little girl who arrives in Hawley, Kansas, and the elementary school teacher begins to suspect the unpleasantness behind the facade. This story, like BLIND VOICES, succeeds in capturing just the right atmosphere of the small-town Kansas that Reamy grew up in. 'Under the Hollywood Sign' is a nasty horror story that preys on heterosexuals' fear of homosexuality. 'Beyond the Cleft' is a gruesome bit of terror that takes place in a North Carolina town where children have become cannibals. 'San Diego Lightfoot Sue' is the story of an amateur witch who casts a spell to find true love, but it's not the light humorous story you might expect -- in fact it's quite moving. 'The Detweiler Boy' is about a hunchbacked boy who seems to have some odd connection to serial murders in LA (very scary). Three of the other pieces are light, throwaway stories ('The Sweetwater Factor', 'The Mistress of Windraven' and 'Waiting for Billy Star'). One story is dumb and forgettable ('Dinosaurs') and two are so awful as to be truly embarrassing ('Insects in Amber' and the unfinished movie outline, '2076: Blue Eyes'); the book would have been much stronger if the editor (Ellison? Virginia Kidd?) had left these stories and the introduction out. The book is good, but if you want to get acquainted with Reamy, buy BLIND VOICES instead. THE WILD SHORE. Kim Stanley Robinson. Ace, c1984. A short story by Kim Stanley Robinson called 'Venice Drowned' appeared in UNIVERSE 11 (edited by Terry Carr), and was collected in THE BEST SF OF THE YEAR #11 (also edited by Terry Carr). This story was a moody description of an Italian tour guide and his rich Japanese visitors, diving to the submerged city of Venice in the year 2050 or so. This story left several troublesome questions behind -- what was responsible for the change in the weather that so hurt Venice? Why are obnoxious Japanese scavenging the art treasures of Venice instead of obnoxious Americans? THE WILD SHORE (first of the new Ace Specials, edited by (guess who?) Terry Carr) has some answers to these questions. THE WILD SHORE is the story of Henry Fletcher, a young man who lives in the tiny fishing village of Onofre, sixty miles or so north of the small town of San Diego, twenty miles from the fringes of the wasteland that is Orange County. Henry struggles in the fishing boats for most of each day, with a little time left to take lessons from one of the few remaining survivors of the old times, Tom Barnard. One day two men arrive over the railway from the south on a handcart. They bring word of the American Resistance and the world beyond the quarantine that cuts America off from its neighbors. Henry and Tom travel to San Diego to meet the Mayor, and gradually they begin to piece together the picture. According to legend, one bright day in 1984 or 1985, thousands of neutron weapons hidden inside identical Chevy vans went off simultaneously, all across the country. In the explosions and subsequent panic, almost the entire population of the country died. Is this what really happened? Why was the country never rebuilt? This is really a very well-written book, and full of beautiful images (such as a walk through the scorched ruins of UCSD :-). If you liked AGAINST INFINITY, you will really like THE WILD SHORE. THE SEX SPHERE. Rudy Rucker. Ace, c1983. This has to be the dirtiest science fiction novel I have read in a long time (maybe ever). It is also very surreal, and very funny, and appropriately Rucker was the winner of the First Annual Philip K. Dick Award. A few fragments of the plot will convince you that the author is totally insane... A physicist and a mathematician working in Italy succeed in isolating a piece of hypermatter and force it to lodge in our universe. The hypermatter promptly eats the physicist. Meanwhile, Alwin Bitter, an American mathematician who teaches in Heidelberg, is on vacation in Rome. He goes out for a walk late at night after having sex with his wife and is accosted by a pimp. The pimp saves him from having to get involved in a minor traffic accident and to be nice Alwin lets him drive him back to the hotel. The pimp turns out to be a member of a gang of kidnappers who ransom people for money, and he chains Alwin up in a cell beneath the Colosseum. But not for long, because Alwin is 'rescued' by the radical Green Death gang and forced to help build an atomic bomb. Just as the bomb is about to go off, Alwin is saved by being transported into the fourth dimension. This goes on, and on, and on, until reality flickers and nearly fades out. I really don't have words to describe just how wild this book is. Buy it and find out. THE VOID CAPTAIN'S TALE. Norman Spinrad. Pocket, c1983. This book comes with a lot of good reviews on the cover -- does it deserve them? You'll have to decide for yourself, because this is the sort of book you'll either love or you'll hate. Genro Kane Gupta is the Void Captain of the DRAGON ZEPHYR, a ship that travels between the stars carrying both cargo and passengers, in a manner not unlike a steamboat. The steerage passengers are in suspended animation, while the first class passengers live it up in a very stylish way in the forward cabins and lounges. The Captain has the function of being the host of the party, while the Domo is the hostess -- the two set the style and the mood for the guests. The Captain has a subsidiary duty to press the button which activates the hyperspatial Jump that takes the ship across the Galaxy in hops of 4 light-years at a time. But there is more to the hyperspatial travel than meets the eye: it also requires the participation of a Pilot, who is physiologically linked into the ship's Jump circuitry. The Pilot (who must be female) enters a state of ecstasy or nirvana which is used by the alien Jump hardware to travel through hyperspace. The Pilot usually is a haggard junkie who lives only for Jumps and is ostracized by the passengers and the rest of the crew; but on the voyage which the novel is concerned with, Captain Genro is suprised to discover that the Pilot is a quite comely and intelligent woman, and he makes the terrible mistake of falling in love with her. Loving this Pilot is a mistake not just because it earns the Captain the scorn of his associates, but also because she has a peculiar and deadly ambition which can only be satisfied through the Captain... This is certainly Spinrad's best book. I rather liked it, but you should be wary of the strange dialect used by the narrator (I had fun with it) and you may find the physical and philosophical underpinnings of Spinrad's universe hard to digest (I did but I managed to live with them). *GENE WOLFE'S BOOK OF DAYS. Gene Wolfe. Doubleday, c1981 (hardcover). The stories in this book vary in age from 1968 to 1981 and they vary considerably in quality, too. It's clear in many of these stories that Wolfe was struggling for the voice which he later found and used to great effect in works like PEACE and THE FIFTH HEAD OF CERBERUS; I don't think this is as good a collection as THE ISLAND OF DOCTOR DEATH AND OTHER STORIES AND OTHER STORIES, which I highly recommend. The stories have a minor gimmick -- they are set around the holidays of the year, from Lincoln's Birthday to New Year's Eve. Sometimes this fits nicely and sometimes not. The really good stories outshine the gimmick. 'The Changeling' is a story about a Korean War vet who comes home to find that some things are different but some disturbingly aren't. ('The Changeling' is set in the same conceptual universe as the novel PEACE, and helps to explain some of the latter...) 'Forlesen' is a very disquieting but also funny story about a man who can't seem to remember why he exists. 'The War Beneath the Tree' is a funny and touching story about the struggle of sentient Christmas toys to survive through the next Christmas. 'Car Sinister' is a little amusement that purports to divulge the way REAL cars are manufactured. If you do get the book, DON'T skip the introduction, which if you ask me is worth the price of the book in itself. *THE WOLFE ARCHIPELAGO. Gene Wolfe. Ziesing Bros., c1983. This book puts together three of the stories from the collection THE ISLAND OF DOCTOR DEATH AND OTHER STORIES AND OTHER STORIES, all with the conceit that their title is some permutation of 'The Island of Doctor Death'. The story behind these stories is that in 1971 Wolfe's story 'The Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories' was up for a Nebula award in the novella category, and at the banquet Isaac Asimov mistakenly announced that Wolfe had won, when in fact there had been 'no award'. The embarrassment must have been agonizing. Joe Hensley later suggested to Wolfe that he should write a story called 'The Death of Dr. Island', since it would win easily on the sympathy vote. Wolfe wrote the story, turning 'The Island of Dr. Death and Other Stories' inside out, and the resulting tale actually did win the Nebula. 'After that,' says Wolfe, 'a hundred readers or so challenged me to write "The Doctor of Death Island",' and he did, and it is collected here with the other two stories. Superficially the stories are very different. 'The Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories' is about a child who lives with his divorced mother and discovers he has a way of entering the world of the tacky adventure paperbacks he loves to read (or perhaps vice versa). 'The Death of Dr. Island' is about a psychotic teenager who has had split-brain surgery and is consigned to a peculiar hospital in orbit about Jupiter, a hospital which has the form of a sentient island floating on the waters which cover the inside of a giant transparent sphere. The boy discovers that he is being used as a tool to help another patient. 'The Doctor of Death Island' is about Alan Alvard, the man who invented talking books -- books which have microscopic computer speech circuitry in their spines and endpapers, and can discuss with you the contents of their pages. Alvard has been been sentenced to life for killing his business partner, and when it becomes apparent that he too will die (of cancer), the court rules that he can use his funds to be frozen until such time as he can be revivified and cured. When Alvard awakes he discovers that he has been cured and granted immortality to boot, but his life sentence without parole still stands, and worse his patent has been circumvented and he is penniless. Alvard then concocts a wicked revenge on an almost- illiterate society... These are three of the best stories from THE ISLAND OF DOCTOR DEATH AND OTHER STORIES AND OTHER STORIES (not THE best story, which I contend is 'The Eyeflash Miracles'), and they provide a belated hardcover edition for some excellent work (ISLAND was a paperback original). The cover art is well done and amusing, and the book mark is a clever play on 'The Doctor of Death Island'. I had no hesitations about buying THE WOLFE ARCHIPELAGO. [And DON'T miss the introduction! More connections with 'The Changeling'...] Donn Seeley UCSD Chemistry Dept. 32 52' 30"N 117 14' 25"W (619) 452-4016 ucbvax!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn sdcsvax!sdchema!donn@nosc.ARPA ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 26-Apr SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #71 *** EOOH *** Date: 26 Apr 84 1156-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #71 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 26 Apr 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 71 Today's Topics: Books - MacAvoy & Robinson (2 msgs) & Book Enquiry & Enquiry Answered, Films - Faithful SF Films (2 msgs) & Star Wars, Miscellaneous - Frobs Vs Fobs & Comics-Lovers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed 25 Apr 84 10:15:24-PST From: CAIN@SRI-AI.ARPA Subject: TEA rebuttal In regards to Donn Seeley's review of R. A. MacAvoy's TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON: I think the review missed the mark. In fact, reviews like this which do little more than summarize the plot of a book have never impressed me as being fair to the author. The plots of many of my favorite books sound pretty trite when put through such a narrow filter. To me, the impact of a book comes from a less tangible source; from the writer's commitment to the story. This expresses itself in the writer's ability to conjure true-to-life characters, to engage them in dialogue in which I feel a part, and then to confront them with problems to draw them out of themselves. If the writer fails in these, then I am tempermentally incapable of reading the story. For that reason, two out of every three books I start end up in the trash by page seven. However, any story succeeding in these things finds a home on my bookshelves. TEA is the kind of book I read with pleasure. The characters begin to come to life in the first sentence and are allowed to grow and to change throughout the book. The dialogues are fun to read, and the plot, though simple, is calculated to explore each of the character's strengths and weaknesses. It is the kind of book which goes onto a smallish shelf I have for books to be re-read every couple years. That Seeley's review summarizes the main woman character (Martha) as "dotty" or the main man (Mayland) as "reclusive" tells me the two of us read distinctly different books inside the same cover. No mention is made of the fact that this love story involves two people over the age of 50 (one possibly much older), or that the most intriguing mystery is Mayland Long's past. Mention of the distinctly Zen/Tao flavor of the book is also omitted. In addition, Seeley refers to the cover blurbs as "overkill." Do I rightly hear him saying the book did not deserve the favorable reviews it received from others (which is tactless at best)? Am I then to assume that nominations received by TEA for the Nebula, the Hugo, the John Campbell, the Phillip K. Dick, and the Compton Crook awards are mere gaudy trappings? Sorry, but for all these reasons I feel the review was unfair to a very good book. Ron Cain CAIN@SRI-AI ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 84 15:44:25-PST (Fri) From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!uw-june!palmer @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Spider Robinson/True Names - (nf) Spider Robinson compiled an anthology ("The Best Of All Possible Worlds", Ace books, 198?) containing good but relatively unknown stories. These include Heinlein's "The Man Who Travelled In Elephants", Niven's "Inconstant Moon", an extract of William Golding (S. Morgenstern)'s "The Princess Bride", and many other's you may not have heard of. I've only seen one copy of this book (mine), but that one copy says that there will be a sequel ("The Second Best..." perhaps :-) ). This guy has taste, and I will buy the sequel if and when I see it, does anybody know anything about it? AdvThanksance David Palmer ------------------------------ Date: 21 Apr 84 10:10:26-PST (Sat) From: hplabs!nsc!chuqui @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Spider Robinson/True Names - (nf) I heard that the sequel to the book 'Best of All Possible Worlds' was canceled because the original just didn't sell as well as hoped. Oh, well. >From under the bar at Callahan's: Chuq Von Rospach {amd70,fortune,hplabs,menlo70}!nsc!chuqui (408) 733-2600 x242 Never give your heart to a stranger, unless you are sure that you are dead. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 84 13:32:00 EST From: Craig MacFarlane Subject: Pluribus? Hello, I'm looking for information on a book called PLURIBUS by Michael Kurland. All I have is the cover, painted by Boris, which has among other things two space stations that look like Deathstars. I work on a machine called Pluribus so I've kept the cover around. Also if you can tell me where the name comes from in the book. Any info would be appreciated... craig. ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 25 April 1984, 17:19-PST From: Craig W. Reynolds Subject: Author Enquiries Date: Tue 24 Apr 84 19:04:07-EST From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA Subject: Author Enquiries ... The story about the man who invested enough money in the past to pay for his trip back there is "Compounded Interest" by Mack Reynolds. Most of us as schoolboys calculated the value of "Caesar's penny", invested on his visit in 55 BC an some trivial rate of compound interest. However, the seminal story is of course H G Wells' When The Sleeper Wakes. Who is the author of "John Jones' Dollar"? This is basically the same story (one US dollar invested at 3% (its an old story) held in a trust for the his first decendant of the fiftieth generation). The story is set during a history lecture (in a distributed, video linked class). The twist is that the story is not about finances but rather the political structure of their society and how it came about. - Craig (no relation to Jack) Reynolds ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 84 12:00:15-PST (Fri) From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!pegasus!hocse!dls @ Ucb-Vax Subject: faithful SF films from a friend of mine off the net: The BBC version of THE DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS (which recently ran on the Arts and Entertainment Channel) was a exceptionally faithful adaptation of Wyndham's novel. Most SF films made from novels are not. What are some films that HAVE been faithful to the original work (novel, short story, etc.)? (Stick to SF, fantasy, or horror, please.) I am NOT talking about novelizations, nor am I asking for which films are 'best'. IT HAPPENS EVERY SPRING is very accurate to the novel (I've been told), but it isn't particularly high-quality. Two suggestions are TERROR OF FRANKENSTEIN (a 1974 Swedish-Irish co-production) and the BBC version of COUNT DRACULA (with Louis Jourdan). They each diverge somewhat from the original work but are closer than any other adaptation of each that I've seen. I haven't read the book THINGS TO COME, but I would guess that the film might be faithful--Wells wrote the screenplay. Has anyone read it who can tell me? Evelyn C. Leeper hocse!lznv!ecl ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 84 14:00:31-PST (Fri) From: ihnp4!houxm!hound!rfg @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: faithful SF films "When Worlds Collide" was pretty close to the book by Balmer (or was it Wylie?...or both?). Of course, many sf films are "right on" the book because the book was written after (or as part of) the film). Sometimes sf films are based on elements of several "books" hooked together. I used to be able to demonstrate that thesis with "2001" but I have forgotten, now. hound!rfg ------------------------------ Date: Wed 25 Apr 84 19:27:52-EST From: Peter G. Trei Subject: Our continuing plan to blow up the Earth... Well, it turns out that I am not the first to work out how much energy is required to blow up a planet. Jef Poskanzker did it a couple years ago, and much more correctly than my method. I assumed that the velocity which each fragment must attain was the same. This is not so; for a piece of planet at a given depth below the surface, the effective escape velocity is that required to escape the gravity generated only by the mass closer to the center than it. Thus, the amount of energy required drops off towards zero for peices nearer and nearer the center, and the calculation becomes non-trivial. Date: 20 Apr 84 15:48:38 PST (Friday) From: Jef Poskanzer Subject: Death Star weapon. To: oc.trei%cu20b@COLUMBIA-20.ARPA Re: I wonder how many times in the past someone has actually done this calculation! At least once: Date: 21 Mar 1982 23:12:33-PST From: jef at LBL-UNIX (Jef Poskanzer [rtsg]) To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI Subject: Planetary Binding Energy A while ago, I mentioned a back-of-the-envelope calculation I once did to figure out the relative strengths of the gravitational and chemical binding energies which hold our planet together. I claimed that the two binding energies were, to within an order of magnitude, equal. Well, I did the computation again, and it looks like I was just barely correct. As I figure it, the chemical energy binding the Earth is one-tenth of the gravitational energy. Thus the two are the same to within an order of magnitude, but for all practical purposes the gravitational energy dominates and our Earth behaves like a ball of liquid instead of a ball of rock. To compute the gravitatonal binding energy, I integrated the potential energies of thin spherical shells of matter relative to the matter they enclose. Assuming a constant-density, perfectly-spherical body, the mass of a shell is (WARNING: fixed-width font required beyond this point!) 2 ms = density * 4 pi r dr , and the mass inside a shell is 3 m = density * 4 / 3 pi r . The potential energy of ms relative to m is G m ms Ums = - ------ . r Then the total potential energy is the integral from r = 0 to r = R of Ums. The final result is 2 2 5 U = - G density 16/15 pi R . This looks strange, but the dimensions are mass * length**2 / time**2, which is energy, which is what we want. For the Earth, with a radius of 6.37e8 cm and a density of 5.52 gm/cm**3, the result is 2.24e39 ergs. The chemical binding energy looked a lot harder to compute to me, so I settled for a really simple-minded method: I figured out how much energy it would take to raise the temperture of the planet by 5000 degrees C. At that temperture very few things are chemically bound. This probably is a gross over-estimate, but that's ok because it still turns out smaller than the gravitational energy. For the Earth, with a mass of 5.98e27 gm, and an arbitrarily chosen specific heat of 0.2 cal / gm degC, the energy required is 2e38 ergs - one tenth the gravitational energy. So, the total binding energy of the Earth is about 2.4e39 ergs, which is quite an impressive ammount. If Alderaan was about the same size as Earth, the Death Star would have had to use 100 billion tons of antimatter fuel to destroy it! However, a cheaper method would be to trigger a fusion chain reaction in the planet's oceans, as some thought would happen here on Earth when we tested the H-bomb. Fusing all the hydrogen in the Earth's oceans would release 1e41 ergs, more than enough to disassemble the planet. Cheerfully yours, Jef Note: your number for the gravitational binding energy, 3.8307e33 Joules, or 3.8307e40 ergs, is ten times higher than mine. Your figure for the mass needed to convert to energy is one hundred times higher, because I slipped a decimal point. I should have said one TRILLION tons of antimatter, and a like quantity of matter. Ave Discordia! Jef An interesting corollary of this is the observation that a hollow sphere puts no net gravitational force on an object ANYWHERE within it. This blows all the hollow-earth-civilisation stories out of the water. Whether it takes 4e33 or 2e32 Joules, thats still many many cords of kindling. Here are one or two other methods: 1. A ray which depresses (or removes) either the negative charge on the electron or the postive charge of the proton. The resulting electrostatic repulsion would tear the planet apart VERY effectively. Larry Niven is also responsible for this one, again as a handweapon. (He likes powerful guns!). Back when the late-lamented Steady State Universe theory still had a few diehard supporters, one of the mechanisms they proposed for the continuous expansion was a slight disparity between the charges of protons and neutrons. A VERY small difference is all that is required. 2. Asimov, in 'The Gods Themselves' had the Earth almost being destroyed as a byproduct of an energy-production system which had only one byproduct; the strength of the weak nuclear force was locally decreased (increased?). This meant that nuclear fusion became easier and easier as time went on. Indeed, had they left the generator running too long, lighting a cigarette could have started a thermonuclear chain reaction. A ray which could do this could cause a VERY BIG BANG. Any more megalomaniac mechanisms out there? Peter Trei ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 24 April 1984, 18:03-PST From: Craig W. Reynolds Subject: frobs vs fobs Date: 13 Apr 84 14:23:00-PST (Fri) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!keller @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: "Press Enter []" by John Varley In "the Hacker's Dictionary" ... BTW, when I was in grade school I thought of a Frob as a little medallion that construction workers wore from their belt showing a picture of something like a backhoe or bulldozer. -Shaun ...uiucdcs!uicsl!keller (from the birthplace of HAL) Perhaps, but when *I* was a kid, the word for what you are describing was "fob". They were used a lot to hold watches (not just decorative emblems), particularly by train crews and other heavy equipment operators. Watches on fobs tended to get less shock damage than wrist watches. 'Course, that was back in the ol' days, back when watches used to be mechanical widgets ... Having a frob attached to your belt would be another thing entirely! -c ------------------------------ Date: Tue 24 Apr 84 14:50:03-PST From: Rich Zellich Subject: Re: what ever happened to Comics-Lovers Jacob Butcher asked, in SFL V9 #68, what happened to Comics-Lovers. It was moderated by Henry Miller, who seems to have left the net. At any rate, he left his account at SRI-NIC, where he coordinated Comics-Lovers. As of yesterday, I have deleted Comics-Lovers@SRI-NIC from the list of lists (SRI-NIC file INTEREST-GROUPS.TXT, available by FTP using ANONYMOUS FTP login and any password). Cheers, Rich ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 27-Apr SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #72 *** EOOH *** Date: 27 Apr 84 1253-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #72 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 27 Apr 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 72 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein & Leinster & Robinson (3 msgs) & Varley & A Review of The Final Reflection (2 msgs) & A Call for Novels, Films - Faithful SF Films (2 msgs), Television - Tom Baker as Sherlock Holmes & The Twilight Zone, Miscellaneous - More of that "Old Time Religion" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 84 10:36:21-PST (Sat) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!barryg @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: psychic powers in Heinlein??? Apparently I am more familiar with Heinlein than you are. I suggest you read/reread: ASSIGNMENT IN ETERNITY: "Gulf" (telepathy) and "Lost Legacy" (all the psychic powers you've thought of and possibly more) WALDO METHUSELAH'S CHILDREN: (towards the end: The Little People section) "The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag" with reference to the powers of the Sons of the Bird And finally STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND (again, towards the end) --Lee Gold Barry Gold usenet: {decvax!allegra|ihnp4}!sdcrdcf!ucla-s!lcc!barry Arpanet: barry@BNL ------------------------------ Date: 22 Apr 84 18:30:09-PST (Sun) From: hplabs!nsc!foster @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Med Service series The Med Service series was written by Will F. Jenkins whose pen name was Murray Leinster. He wrote mostly for ACE BOOKS whose address is (or was some years ago): 1120 Avenue of the Americas New York, N. Y. 10036 These stories were written more than twenty years ago and still have very few anachronisms. The Med Service series is good entertainment and more. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Apr 84 13:15:00-PST (Thu) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!ea!mwm @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Spider Robinson/True Names - (nf) Nobody has mentioned Robinson's novel "Telempath". That, plus "Stardance" (co-authored with his wife) and "Mindkiller" are what Robinson has out in the way of novels. There's also three collections of short stories: "Callahan's Crosstime Saloon," "Time Travelers Strictly Cash," and "Antinomy." All recommended, the first two if you like puns and other low humor. The third contains the short story (I think it's the title story) which grew up to be "Mindkiller." Finally, he alternated in the Analog & Destinies review columns for a long while. He is no longer doing this, much to my dissapointment. Blast it, I enjoyed reading the man's *reviews*, and wish he would start doing them again - if only every once and a while. Having read all three of his novels, I've noticed that he doesn't seem to be able to kill people. In all three of them, someone you thought was dead and gone reappears at the end of the novel - usually to explain all. Does this annoy anyone else? I was very off-gepissed *all three times* he did it to me. Especially since I'd thoroughly enjoyed the books until then. From under the bar at Callahan's: Chuq Von Rospach {amd70,fortune,hplabs,menlo70}!nsc!chuqui (408) 733-2600 x242 Never give your heart to a stranger, unless you are sure that you are dead. ------------------------------ Date: 22 Apr 84 15:18:09-PST (Sun) From: sun!qubix!jdb @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Best of All Possible Worlds > From: chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) > > I heard that the sequel to the book 'Best of All Possible Worlds' > was canceled because the original just didn't sell as well as > hoped. Oh, well. A thundering shame if true. Would it help any to send every net.sfnik down to buy it? Dear people it is worth it, if only for Heinlein's favorite underap- preciated story, "Our Lady's Juggler" by Anatole France. This story is a heartwarming picture of human values. (cornier than the story deserves, but I dont want to do a spoiler here). Pro-Heinlein folks could make a strong case for the Senile Master Storyteller (~1/2 :->) by pointing to his admiration for "Our Ladys Juggler". A better case even than Spider Robinson makes in "rah rah R.A.H." foo! Im working on a beautiful Sunday. My eloquence isn't what I might like. I'll just miss that second volume of BoAPW, though. "Well I'ma tella y'u, mister smartaguy aardawark ..." Dr Memory ...{decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!decwrl!qubix!jdb ------------------------------ Date: 21 Apr 84 23:52:16-PST (Sat) From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!houti!ariel!vax135!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!sbcs!bn From: l!mbeck @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Anyone seen Varley's "Demon" yet? Somewhere recently (not sure if it was here) there was a note about John Varley's book "Demon", one of the Titan series. Has anyone seen this book (either hardcover or paperback) ? Mark Becker ...bnl!mbeck ------------------------------ Date: Wed 25 Apr 84 18:47:21-PST From: Laurence R Brothers Subject: book review--The Final Reflection The Final Reflection is the latest Timescape Star Trek novel, this time by John M. Ford. This is the best Star Trek novel I have read, and curiously, none of the TV actors are major characters, except Spock, who is a child at the time of the story. The book begins with Kirk reading a novel that's just come out, and ends with him finishing the novel. In between, the novel-within-a-novel is also called The Final Reflection, and is the story of a Klingon, seen through his eyes. The novel is without the sentimentality that degrades much of the Star Trek material that has come out in the past few years. The novel presents a good picture of what Klingon society might be like, and manages to portray them in a consistent way, not as the murdering hypocrites that they typically come over as, but also not as clones of the Romulans, whose societal pattern has already been portrayed both in actual TV episodes and in novels. Given the belief in the Star Trek universe, the action in the novel is both believable and supportive of the "history" which has been sketched out over the years. If the events of the novel are taken as truth in the context of the Star Trek universe, then a lot of formulative events in the history of the Federation are revealed in this novel, including the first interspecies racial joke: "How many Romulans does it take to fix a transporter?". Of course, Ford realizes that his history is not "official"---that is why it is couched, with an official disclaimer from Starfleet Command, as a work of fiction. TFR is so well written, compared with your average Star Trek novel, that all of you with the least bit of interest in Star Trek should run out and purchase it at once. I am afraid that this "review" does not reveal much about the events in the novel, but just about anything I say would be a spoiler. Not a Trekkie, -Laurence ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 1984 1406-EST From: John Redford Subject: review of "The Final Reflection" "The Final Reflection" by John M. Ford Pocket Books, $2.95 There have recently been a whole slew of novels set in the Star Trek universe. The inside cover of "The Final Reflection" lists fifteen, some of them by fairly well known authors like Vonda McIntyre and Greg Bear. Counting the TV short story anthologies, the cartoon series and all the randoms, the total must come to fifty books by now. Perry Rhodan, watch out! This one caught my eye because I loved John Ford's first book, "Web of Angels". His second, "Princes of the Air", got kind of incoherent, but this one is tight and well-plotted. Working within the constraints of the ST universe must have had disciplining effect on him. The book is actually not about Kirk, Spock and McCoy, those well-beloved characters of our youth, although Spock appears in it as a child. It's about a Klingon captain, Krenn sur-Rustazh, who winds up being the first Klingon ambassador to the Federation. He is in fact, the Klingon counterpart to Kirk, being bold, courageous, and cunning, although since he is a Klingon he is also a ruthless and cold-blooded killer. There's even a Klingon counterpart to the Star Trek TV series itself. Every week the Battleship Vengenance with Captain Koth at the helm captures an enemy ship or enslaves an enemy planet. Although Krenn is without an established Line, he quickly rises to being the captain of a frontier naval vessel. When the Federation starts making peace overtures, he is the one chosen to bring the Federation ambassador to the Klingon homeworld, since he is expendable. This brings him in contact with the devious and incomprehensible Humans. Worst of all is Dr. Emmanuel Tagore, the ambassdor, who is a pacifist. He cannot understand a being who dislikes war just because it is war, and not because he might lose. There are some nice touches in the descriptions of the totally militarist Klingon culture. They have a passion for chess-like games, of which they have a number of forms, some with live soldiers battling it out. In the afterlife they go to sail with the Black Fleet, where they can fight and die laughing a thousand times. They are baffled by the Human's penchant for going into large meetings completely unarmed. You don't actually come to sympathize with them, but they do become more than mere monsters. I would have thought that the Star Trek universe would have been exhausted long ago, but this book proves that an inventive author can find an interesting angle on anything. John Redford (vlsi @ dec-marlboro) ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 84 13:33:50 PST (Thursday) From: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Call For Novels: wide subject area I'd like to request recommendations for novels dealing with either or both of the following topics: 1) Extrapolated Near Earth Future: doesn't even need to be science fiction. I'm interested in novels with lots of politics and intrigue, or studies of alternate realities. The wider the scope, the better. [Books I have read that I consider to be in the class specified by this topic: "The Man In The High Castle", "Stand On Zanzibar", "Childhood's End", "1984"] 2) Large Scope Political/Intrigue Imperialism/Revolution: By large I mean anything from planet-wide to galaxy-wide. The more complicated and intertwined the plot, the better. [Books I have read that I consider to be in the class specified by this topic: Foundation Trilogy, Dune series, Illuminatus! Trilogy, Lensman (har har), etc.] Even more helpful would be recommendations of authors who tend to write novels of this sort (like Brunner). Please, reply to: Caro.pa@XEROX.ARPA only, unless you have additional comments to make of general interest. Thanks in advance! Perry ------------------------------ Date: 21 Apr 84 10:42:43-PST (Sat) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!barryg @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: faithful SF films Fantasy films that were faithful to the source? For TV viewers, I recommend Chuck Jones' "The Selfish Giant" (based on the Wilde fairy tale) and "Ricky Ticky Tavi" (based on Kipling). Most non-F&SF films are also not faithful to the source. I have not yet seen a faithful version of THREE MUSKETEERS or IVANHOE. --Lee Gold Barry Gold usenet: {decvax!allegra|ihnp4}!sdcrdcf!ucla-s!lcc!barry Arpanet: barry@BNL ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 1984 20:54 EST (Thu) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" Subject: faithful SF films How about Colossus: The Forbin Project? That's one of the most faithful to the book, that wasn't actually written to be made into a movie, that I've seen. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 84 20:16 EST From: TMPLee@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: For Tom Baker Fans This has nothing (hardly) whatsoever to do with SF and is clearly a waste of the taxpayer's money it takes to get it to you, but what the h.... Those of you who are on a cable TV system may have not noticed that Tom Baker, yes, the Tom Baker of Dr. Who, is starring as Sherlock Holmes in a production of the Hound of the Baskervilles on the ARTS/ENTERTAINMENT network. First hour is airing right now, to be repeated later tonight and again at other times. My first reaction at the first few minutes was that it was NOT Sherlock, but Dr. Who I was seeing, but then when one thinks about it, the two characters are remarkably similar and it is excellent casting (even if it isn't Basil). Ted ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 25 Apr 1984 06:49:21-PST From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Do not adjust your set...) To: sfnet@decwrl.ARPA Subject: Another TZ time travel episode I seem to recall a Twilight Zone episode about a harried businessman who rode the commuter train and was surprised to find one rainy evening that it had stopped in a sunny station 100 years ago. He stayed on the train for two more rides, and then he'd had enough of the 20th century, and he got off. There was also one called "The Third Level" about a chap who had a friend who had found a lower level of Grand Central Terminal - from there, one could take the train to the past. The hero didn't believe it until his friend disappeared and then the hero found a letter in his attic (?) that had been stored away for 80-odd years, to him, from his friend, saying, "I found it!" But the hero never found the third level. Cheers, Dick Binder decvax!decwrl!rhea!dosadi!binder ------------------------------ From: allegra!scgvaxd!4ccvax!PDUQUETTE@Berkeley Date: Thu, 26 Apr 84 11:57:38 est Subject: More of that "Old Time Religion" Sorry, Folks, I was feeling inspired. We will sing of Iluvatur, Who sent the Valar 'cross the water To lead Morgoth to the slaughter And that's just fine with me. We will sing of Foul the Render, Who's got Drool Rockworm on a bender In his cave in Kiril Threndor-- They're both too much for me. We will sing the Jug of Issek, And of Fafhrd his chief mystic, Though to thieving Mouser will stick, And that's good enough for me. Of Lord Shardik you must beware; To please him you must swear; 'Cause enraged he's a real Bear, He's bad enough for Mr. T! Will Duquette, Claremont, CA (I really do apologize, especially for that last one.) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 30-Apr SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #73 *** EOOH *** Date: 30 Apr 84 1355-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #73 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 30 Apr 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 73 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Heinlein (2 msgs) & MacAvoy & May & Niven & Reynolds & Vinge & Analog Story, Films - Faithful SF Films (4 msgs) & High Speed Film & Firestarter (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 84 18:07:28-PST (Sat) From: pur-ee!CS-Mordred!Pucc-H.Pucc-I.Stat-L.ab3 @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Book recommendation (100 short short stories) Let me recommend to y'all out there "100 Great Short Short Science Fiction Stories", edited by Isaac Asimov et. al. Good stuff from beginning to end, great (obviously) for reading in small chunks, and contains the story referred to (ages ago) in this newsgroup wherein someone makes continual references to "pact with the devil" stories...also contains "Synchronicity", which I was looking for some time ago (probably of interest to fans of the Police) and one of the best "unconquerable-human- spirit" stories I've ever read -- "Upstart". Oh, just go buy it. Rsk the Wombat UUCP: { allegra, decvax, ihnp4, harpo, teklabs, ucbvax } !pur-ee!rsk { cornell, eagle, hplabs, ittvax, lanl-a, ncrday } !purdue!rsk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 84 13:41:49 est From: csin!cjh@cca-unix Subject: Heinlein & Psi; The Man in the High Castle There are at least two Heinlein shorts dealing substantially with psi, although I've managed to forget both their titles. One is a novella in which Mt Shasta turns out to be a repository of Atlantean knowledge, now inhabited by people ranging from Ambrose Bierce to a Chinese ex-servant; three formerly normal humans discover this after (in effect) bootstrapping themselves into psi powers. The second is a short in which a group of psychokinetics prevent A-bombs (hidden around the country by Russian agents) from exploding after remote triggering. (There's also a brief mention of the 'supermen' in "Gulf" finding telepathy to be unreliable at best, and psi is used for secret communications at the end of "If This Goes On..." and the beginning of "Methuselah's Children".) Heinlein tended to be practical about editors' desires, considering himself a hired craftsman rather than an artist, so when Campbell (who bought most of Heinlein's magazine-published work) wanted psi stories, he got them. THE MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE is considered SF because of a general rubric that alternate-world stories (aka uchronias) are SF even if there is no travel between alternities (as there is at the end of tMitHC). Other examples of this are BRING THE JUBILEE (Ward Moore--travel borderline) and THE ALTERATION (Kingsley Amis). It's not a bad inclusion---science fiction is definable as "What would happen if we go this way?" while uchronias are what would (have happened)/(be happening now) if we had gone that way. The recent talk about Heinlein has reminded me of a wonderful trivia question. When Campbell did a poll on who was the most popular writer published in ASTOUNDING, he got a surprise: Heinlein came in SECOND!. Who was first? Answers \to/ \me/ at the address below, and I'll post the correct one in a couple of weeks. CHip (Chip Hitchcock) ARPA: CJH@CCA-UNIX usenet: ...{!decvax,!linus,!sri-unix}!cca!csin!cjh War is peace Freedom is slavery Ketchup is a vegetable ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 84 17:53:34-PST (Mon) From: sun!qubix!jdb @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: psychic powers in Heinlein??? In fact, MAGIC, INC (in the same volume with WALDO) is pure psychic fantasy. One of the dangers of Heinlein is that he is a *master* storyteller: he makes even utter gibberish plausible, especially while you are reading it. Dr Memory ...{decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!decwrl!qubix!jdb ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 84 17:29:07 pst From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin) Subject: Tea with the Black Dragon Warning - don't buy this book unless you are prepared to see algorithms spelled 'algorythms'. This only happens once though, so i suppose it's a typo. Hi Spd. Steve. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 84 14:15:20-PST (Mon) From: ihnp4!we13!burl!clyde!watmath!utzoo!utcsrgv!perelgut @ Ucb-Vax Subject: "Adversary" by Julian May (female!) I am not going to spoil this book by trying my inept hand at a detailed review. It is an excellent book and concludes the current series without eliminating hope for further books in the same universe. The back pages mention a pre-quel trilogy about events leading to the Milieu and the "current" situation. "Jack the Bodiless" is one title (and only those familiar with the current trilogy will understand the significance). I rate this a solid 8.5/10. There are a few places where deus ex machina seems to solve problems. But it is an excellent read and I recommend it even as a hard-cover. One last comment. How many people noticed the reference to Industrial Light and Magic near the end? Stephen Perelgut Computer Systems Research Group University of Toronto Usenet: {linus, ihnp4, allegra, decvax, floyd}!utcsrgv!perelgut CSNET: perelgut@Toronto ------------------------------ Date: 22 Apr 84 21:49:09-PST (Sun) From: wildbill @ Ucb-Vax Subject: "Inconstant Moon" little-known? Who are you trying to kid here? C'mon, it only won a Hugo, that's all. I think I have it in a couple of Niven collections, Hugo Winners III, and two or three other places besides. This out of a total library of only about 400 books. Not exactly obscure, what? Bill Laubenheimer UC-Berkeley Computer Science ...Killjoy WAS here! ucbvax!wildbill ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 84 22:41:30-PST (Mon) From: hplabs!nsc!foster @ Ucb-Vax Subject: re: How to get rich with a time machine The story about a time traveler who went back to Venice in 1300 AD to invest a modest sum (10 U.S. double eagles) and collected the principal six and a half centuries later to pay for the enormous expenses of his own time travel was called "COMPOUNDED INTEREST". It was written by Mack Reynolds and was first published in Fanstasy and Science Fiction in 1956. At one time Mack Reynolds was my favorite author, primarily because of a story he wrote in the 1960's called BEEHIVE. First published as a 3 part serial in Analog, it resulted in a number of other stories using the same basic plot. The plot went something like this: A vastly superior civilization is discovered by some humanoids who learn to their peril that these advanced beings have but one law, "thou shalt not steal". Stealing results in the humanoids home planet being converted instantaneously to something that won't support life (of any kind). A small number of humans find out about this and (thankfully) don't take anything from the vastly superior beings. The league of planets (or something) is informed and decide to promote among the members a maximum rate of technological advancement to hopefully someday be able to counteract the terrible menace of the vastly superior beings. Naturally they don't tell the member planets anything about the vastly superior beings or the plans for technological development. This job is turned over to the department of dirty tricks (sort of furturistic CIA). That group goes around recruiting ordinary citizens with special talents to help in the cause (their own agents being too well known). If this sounds like the current tv show "Masquerade" you're close. Personally, I think the idea came from "The Man From U.N.C.L.E." which predated "Masquerade" by 22 years. Anyway, the department of dirty tricks goes about its' business of spread- ing the slogan "Progress Is Our Most Important Product" across the galaxy and in the process Mack Reynolds generates some great yarns of daring do (and sometimes their hilarious repercussions). Anyone else out there remember Mack Reynolds or the BEEHIVE scenario? 9 9 ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 84 17:09:00-PST (Fri) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!ea!mwm @ Ucb-Vax Subject: @i(True Names) reissue? Quoting from the June '84 Analog Biolg: "His third, @i(True Names), has been recently issued by Bluejay Books. This short novel made the final ballots for both the Nebula and Hugo awards, with very favorable reviews in @i(Analog) by Spider Robinson and in @i(Microcomputing) by Frank Derfler. And a movie option has been taken on it!" So, it looks like it may be available to those who didn't get it the first time around. And a *movie!* I can hear the ads now: "Somewhere, on the edge of the address space, a battle is about to begin..." Subject: Faithful to the Source Colossus (The Forbin Project) was about as close to the original book as any film I can recall. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 84 18:44:07 EDT From: Don Provan@CMU-CS-A Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #72 The plot of Colossus, the Forbin Project is fairly similar between book and movie, but that's about as far as the similarity goes. The characters are all very different. In the book, Forbin is sort of a muddler while in the movie he real together. His girlfriend is a conniver in the book desparately trying to get Forbin into her pants, while in the movie she's not. There are lots more. I'm a big fan of the movie and I thought I liked the book, too, but I just reread it a few months ago and it really stinks. There isn't a single character I can have any respect for. This seems to be a rare instance when a bad book is made into a great movie, instead of vice versa. How often does that happen? ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 84 11:48:56-PST (Mon) From: ihnp4!we13!burl!clyde!watmath!utzoo!kcarroll @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: faithful SF films The first film that comes to mind when "sf films that are faithful to their book versions" is mentioned is, of course, "2001: A Space Odyssey", by Arthur C. Clarke/Stanley Kubrick. In this case, the novel and the movie were made simultaneously. The novel went through severlal re-writes, in order to get a story that would work as a film. There's at least one major discrepancy between the two, though. In the book, the Discovery is sent to Iapetus, in the Saturn system. In the movie, it is sent to Jupiter instead; Kubrick decided that animating Jupiter was hard enough; animating Saturn would be even harder, as it'd be like Jupiter, except with rings. So, Jupiter it was! -Kieran A. Carroll ...decvax!utzoo!kcarroll ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Apr 1984 00:30 EST From: "Adam G. Mellis" Subject: faithful SF films The book "2001: A Space Odyssey" by Clarke and Kubrick is relatively true to the film and provides some much-needed explanation. However, the reason is probably that the screenplay, by Kubrick and Clarke (note the order) was written at the same time. p.s. 2001 is an expansion of "The Sentinal", a short story by Clarke. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 84 9:31:47-PST (Tue) From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!mako!davidl @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: high frame rates / strobing Jerry Aguirre states: "When it becomes cheaper to computer synthesize images than build sets and costumes the problem will go away. Or will they deliberately incorporate the strobing effect to simulate "real" film? Some of you may be interested to know that this is already happening (to a degree, anyway). At a computer graphics conference in Eugene, Oregon I saw a demonstration of something called "Emulsifilter" (or something like that). This is an electronic device that makes videotape look like film-transferred-to-videotape! They seem to do it by dropping the contrast, fooling with the color balance a bit, and maybe softening the focus a little. In addition, for this demonstration they added a little "tickatickaticka" movie projector sound to the tape to enhance the effect... It's amazing what the subtle difference between film and videotape can do to the emotional impact of a visual work. What next? Computer simulations of flip-books? David D. Levine (...decvax!tektronix!tekecs!davidl) [UUCP] (...tekecs!davidl.tektronix@rand-relay) [ARPA] ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 84 9:07:28-PST (Mon) From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!houti!ariel!vax135!floyd!whuxle!spuxll!abnjh!c From: bspt005 @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Time Bandits Sequel and FireStarter Firestarter opens nationwide on May 11. Drew Barrymore, George C. Scott, Martin Sheen, and Louise Fletcher star. Richard Fleischer directed. -Eric Carter ATT-IS Morristown, NJ ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 84 5:49:50-PST (Tue) From: ihnp4!cbosgd!cbscc!rsu @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Re: Time Bandits Sequel and FireStarter Correction: "Firestarter" was *not* directed by Richard Fleischer!!! I believe Fleischer is directing the "Conan" sequel, which like "Firestarter" is a Dino DeLaurentiis production. Mark Lester is the director of "Firestarter";his previous credits include "Roller Boogie" and "Class of '84", but I'm still looking forward to the movie!! ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 1-May SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #74 *** EOOH *** Date: 1 May 84 1301-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #74 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 1 May 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 74 Today's Topics: Books - Benford & Brin & Goldman (3 msgs) & Robinson (2 msgs) & Varley & More Book Reviews & Omni Story & Totonto Book Stores, Films - Dune ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun 29 Apr 84 21:41:20-PDT From: Barry Eynon Subject: Re: AGAINST INFINITY I was interested to read the recent review of Benford's AGAINST INFINITY, and somewhat surprised that noone else has mentioned something that jumped out at me even from the very first chapter - the book is stylistically and structurally almost completely isomorphic with William Faulkner's novella "The Bear". (included, among other places in the collection GO DOWN MOSES) Since I haven't read Faulkner since I OD'ed on him for a senior HS English project, I really had a weird feeling when I started reading AI, and I couldn't resist digging out my old Faulkner books and rereading "The Bear". I really can't say more without spoiling both stories, but I thought the (obviously intentional) reworking of the concepts by Benford was fascinating. -Barry Eynon ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 27 Apr 1984 16:55-PST Subject: micro-thoughts on David Brin's latest -- Practice Effect From: Kevin W. Rudd 1. book was enjoyable (bought it at 9pm, finished (with numerous interruptions) at 1am. 2. wrapping up left a lot to be desired. 3. lack of real character development as in Startide Rising (similar problem in Sundiver) 4. -- not as good as Startide Rising but more enjoyable than Sundiver. 5. -- read 'em all. -- Kevin kevinw@su-dsn ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 84 9:20:00-PST (Mon) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!kaufman @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Re: Spider Robinson/True Names The extract is from "The Princess Bride" by William Goldman, not Golding. Golding wrote "Lord of the Flies" while Goldman's work includes "Marathon Man" and the screenplay of "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid". Most simply, "The Princess Bride" is wonderful. I was first exposed to it through the Robinson collection and was captivated by the excerpt (a duel scene which has thrilled fencing masters). I promptly ran to the store and got a copy of the entire book. It may be a bit hard to find; this, along with the rest of Goldman's books, is usually put in the fiction section rather than in sf/fantasy. By the way, has anyone heard about Goldman's progress with the next S. Morganstern book? I heard it was supposed to come out this year. "Bevare the Green Dragon" Ken Kaufman (uiucdcs!kaufman) ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 84 9:23:06-PST (Wed) From: hplabs!saturn!ishizaki @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: William Goldman William Goldman has gotten a new book to press recently, called "The Color of Light" -- it does not seem to be a F/SF book. Last year, S. Morgenstern released a hardback called, "The Silent Gondolier". I highly recommend reading the book. It is a short book, but very enjoyable. Nowhere is it mentioned that William Goldman == S. Morgenstern. But we all have our own feelings on the subject. Audrey Ishizaki HPLabs Palo Alto, CA ..!ucbvax!hplabs!ishizaki ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 84 13:57:38-PST (Wed) From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!uw-june!palmer @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Goldman, S. Morgenstern, Princess Bride, The Silent Subject: Gondoliers William Goldman's latest S. Morgenstern work is "The Silent Gondoliers", which has been out for several months in Hardback. (A rather thin book) I haven't read it yet, but it's about a time when all gondoliers sang, and were better than Caruso was in his time. It does not have Goldman's name on the cover, so you may be filed under Morgenstern at your local book store. If you have not been able to find "The Princess Bride", look in used book stores, in the paperback section. A local used book store has several copies in several different covers. I have never seen a new copy for sale. David Palmer ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 1984 22:12 EST From: RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: pur-ee!uiucdcs!ea!mwm@UCB-VAX.ARPA Subject: Spider Robinson/True Names - (nf) Actually, the short story that grew up to be Mindkiller was "God Is An Iron", in "Time Travelers Strictly Cash". James (JMTURN@MIT-MC.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 84 11:11:01-PST (Mon) From: ihnp4!drutx!alanr @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Spider Robinson/True Names I have several books by Spider. Among them are Stardance, Mindkiller, Callahan's Crosstime Saloon (highly recommended -- unless you can't stand puns), and one or two others (that I can't remember the titles of). -- Alan Robertson ihnp4!drutx!alanr AT&T Information Systems ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 84 8:09:37-PST (Mon) From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!iddic!rickc @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Varley's Demon "Demon" was listed in the latest edition of 'Forthcoming Books in Print' as being available in June. Rick Coates tektronix!iddic!rickc ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 84 16:27:55 PST From: Scott Turner Subject: Paperback Book Reviews MAN IN THE TREE, Damon Knight QUEST FOR THE FARADAWN, Richard Ford DILVISH THE DAMNED, Roger Zelazny EASY TRAVEL TO OTHER PLANETS, Ted Mooney MAN IN THE TREE, Damon Knight, Berkley Fantasy, 0-425-06006-3, $2.75 This is a fascinating novel about a freak called Gene Anderson. He is an eight and a half foot giant with the ability to look into closely parallel worlds and bring things back (and vice versa). More importantly, he becomes a prophet, and his life parallels that of Jesus and others. Overall, this is a rather curious novel. There is plenty of action within, but the book doesn't strike one as action packed because all the action is described with an eye toward how it affects the developing Gene Anderson. In some sense the book is a 250 page study in character development. What makes it worthwhile is the fact that the character under development is a saviour. One of science fiction's highly touted values is its ability to translate the reader to a new and different place. This book is a superlative example of that. Knight gives us a peek into the head of a prophet. I'd give it five stars if I did things like that. QUEST FOR THE FARADAWN, Richard Ford, DELL 17182, $3.95 QUEST is the story of a boy named Nab who is searching for a magic to save the world. Nab was raised in the wild by a badger family; he speaks the language of the wild and is friends with the animals. To judge by the reviews quoted on the covers and inside pages, this book has been well received. Reviewers seem to love books about animal communities. Personally, I didn't find this book all that enjoyable. Ford's fantasy vision is intriguing enough. But the plotting and the writing slow the book down to the point where reading it becomes monotonous. In spots the reader can skip 10 to 15 pages without missing anything that is essential to the story. I must admit that I haven't quite managed to finish this yet. I'm about 2/3 of the way through (the Quest has just started, to give you some idea of the pacing). Better stories of this sort have been written. THE BOOK OF THE DUN COW and WATERSHIP DOWN come to mind. So save your money. DILVISH THE DAMNED, Roger Zelazny, Del Rey Fantasy 30625, $3.50 This is a re-issue of a number of short stories written from 1964 to 1981. I won't list them all here, but most of them have appeared elsewhere. (Curiously, Flying Buffalo owns the rights to one of them.) They all concern the adventures of Dilvish, a warrior/sorceror who has returned from Hell in the company of a demon steed named Black. He's out to kill the sorceror who sent him to Hell, one Jelerak. I've long been a fan of Zelazny, and that is why I picked up this book. Lately his work has been sporadic and poor. Can he return to the form he had in LORDS OF LIGHT and the Amber Series? I'm not sure, but he doesn't do it here. These tales are all interesting enough. After all, Zelazny is a craftsman, and even his bad stuff is written well. But there are no real surprises here, and nothing that makes you weep for a sequel. So buy it with this in mind: if you like Zelazny, you'll be semi-satisfied. If you aren't particularly a Zelazny fan, then you'll get a dose of mediocre (but well written) fantasy. EASY TRAVEL TO OTHER PLANETS, Ted Mooney, Ballantine Fiction 30547, $2.95 This book is copyright 1981, so I apologize if it has been discussed here before. I got my copy secondhand. This is the story of a marine researcher and her interaction with her laboratory animals - dolphins. It is set in the near future, a future where an increasing segment of the population suffers from ``information sickness'' a disease of information overload that drives people crazy and makes them bleed from the ears. The writing style is somewhat disconnected and jumpy, but acceptable after the first 20 pages. Overall the story is quite interesting. It doesn't really go anywhere; there is no feeling of enlightenment after finishing the book. I'm not sure if that is a minus or not. It really isn't that kind of a story. It's a story of interpersonal relationships, and how people cope with a changing world. An interesting book. Which is as far out on a limb as I will go. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 84 16:30:36-PST (Tue) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!brl-tgr!brl-vgr!ron @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: New SF movie: The Last Starfighter (Computer Subject: Animation/Efx) Anybody recall "Last Kid Inside The Mountain" from OMNI a while back. The world's best video gamer 10 year old is taken by the military to NORAD to play the ultimate game. -Ron ------------------------------ Date: 22 Apr 84 10:01:31-PST (Sun) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!ritcv!tropix!aii @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Toronto book stores Although this might sound strange "The Worlds Largest Bookstore" in Toronto is one of the WORST bookstores to try to find anything except gifts in. They do have a large stock, but it consists mostly of manymanymany copies of whatever is popular at the time. For science fiction and fantasy try Bakka Books (Queens street maybe), they are SURE to have all of Robinsons stuff since they have a pretty comprehensive used section as well as all the new books. The word Bakka comes from Dune and means something like "one who weeps for the world". I'm sure someone out there knows the exact quote. Alice Bentley ....seismo!rochester!ritcv!tropix!aii ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 84 5:55:46-PST (Wed) From: ihnp4!ihuxb!alle @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Dune Notes + [Excerpts from the Chicago Tribune "The Arts" Sunday April 22,1984 The article discusses the production of "Dune" and director David Lynch.] Dune - Sci-Fi Extravaganza by Jeff Rovin "Dune" has taken a difficult path toward its current production. Arthur P. Jacobs, producer of "Planet of the Apes" [1968], made the first attempt to film the novel in 1972. While the project was in the early stages of development, Jacobs died, and the property moved on to Alexandro Jodorowsky, writer and director of the classic western "El Topo" [1971. Jodorowsky chose surrealist artist Salvador Dali to design the sets, but the men couldn't get along, and the project eventually collapsed. De Laurentis acquired the film rights in 1980 and began developing it with ridley Scott, director of "Alien" and "Blade Runner." But Scott wanted to emphasize the incestuous relationship between Paul Atreides and his mother, so De Laurentis went hunting for another director. Because of an unfortunate set of circumstances, Lynch happened to be free. The director reportedly had turned down an offer from George Lucas to direct "Return of the Jedi" and had then settled in at Francis Coppola's Zoetrope Studios to begin work on "Ronnie Rocket," the story of "a 3-foot tall boy who has physical problems and 60-cycle alternating-current electricity." But Zoetrope was close to bankruptcy in early 1981 - dragged down by Coppola's expensive production of "One from the Heart" - and "Ronnie Rocket" misfired. So Lynch was free to accept "Dune." After he signed on as "Dune's" writer-director, Lynch faced two big problems. First, he had to decided how to meet the expectations of the 30 million people around the world who have read the novel. That resolved, there was the very real problem of condensing the book into a script that would run only two hours on the screen. According to at least one source - the novel's author, Frank Herbert - the director-screenwriter succeeded. "David wrote a beautiful script," Herbert says enthusiastically. "What you'll see on the screen is 'Dune.'" Scenes and settings that can't be built or found in Mexico are being created by an impressive team of special-effects technicians, including Carlo Rambaldi, the man who designed the creatures for "Alien" and "E.T."; Albert Whitlock, who destroyed Los Angeles in "Earthquake" and blew up the ill-fated dirigible in "The Hindenburg"; John Dykstra, who made the ships fly in "Star Wars" and "Firefox"'; and Kit West, who designed action effects for "Raiders of the Lost Ark" and "Return of the Jedi." Ironically, the biggest adjustment Lynch has had to make is unrelated to the vast sets of miniature models: "Dune" is the first major film he has shot in color. "I'm not really wild about color," he confesses. "And I think something like 'Dune' shot in black and white would have a nice foreign feeling to it. However, you have to be practical. 'Dune' is a commercial venture, something I'm constantly reminded of by the numbers of merchandising people passing through, preparing to manufacture sandworm dolls and what-have-you. That doesn't bother me, because it's their world, not mine. but it does reinforce the fact that this is a moneymaking enterprise." Lynch admits that shooting in color has advantages, particularly because it allows him to create distinctive looks for the four planets where "Dune's" action takes place. "It would have been difficult differentiating them in black and white," he concedes. "And Freddie Francis, the director of photography, is shooting 'Dune' in a way that not only makes the colors richer than anything we've seen in years, he's also making the shadows soft and subtle to create a really unusual beauty." But perhaps the best-known member of the cast is Gordon Sumner, better known as Sting, lead singer and bass player of the rock group Police. Lynch reports that working with the rock superstar has been one of his greatest pleasures in the set of "Dune." "Sting is fantastic," he reports. "He is a great presence: Whatever he does, he just leaps out, even if he's just standing there. He's a natural actor, and he brought a lot to the human side of the film. In fact, all of the actors have been great in their way, with their enthusiasm and collective experience." ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 3-May SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #75 *** EOOH *** AFTER: 3-MAY-84 23:00 Date: 3 May 84 1451-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #75 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 3 May 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 75 Today's Topics: Books - Bulmer & Goldman & Hawke & Heinlein & Lieber (2 msgs) & Spinning Your Satellite, Films - Star Trek (2 msgs) & 2001 & High Speed Film (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Time Travel & CONTACT ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 23 Apr 84 16:33:00-PST (Mon) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!ea!mwm @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Wanted, one wizard!?! I am trying to buy a copy of Kenneth Bulmer's _The Wizards of Senchuria_. First publication was an Ace Double, probably about 1970. No, I don't know what was on the flip side. This is (I think) the middle book of his Keys to the Dimensions series. Reasonable prices go at least as far as 10 times the cover price - maybe more. If you have a copy you'd like to part with, or a pointer to a good used book store that will do mail order business, I would greatly appreciate it if you would get in touch with me (many addresses below). Thanx now, and afterwards, Subject: High Speed film. I've been reading with interest the messages over the past few months about ShowScan, the 60 frame per second film technology which is supposed to produce a far more 'emotionally intense' experience than our standard 40 fps. Some people are saying that it is all hype, that technology alone can do nothing to improve the experience, while most of those who have seen it claim that its the best thing since sliced bread. I believe that increasing the frame rate really may produce a qualitative difference in the viewers experience, and I'd like to explain why. The human eye's photo receptors do not produce an analog output; each rod or cone cell is connected to nerves which will carry pulses of a more or less invariant size at large range of frequencies. (The impulses are sort of like solitons.) The frequency of impulses is roughly proportional to the log of the brightness, with an absolute upper rate of about 500 pulses per second for the nerve. Because of this, there is an absolute upper limit to the time resolution of the human eye, with the brightness signal being continuously averaged over a time period which varies inversely with the brightness. Any periodicy in the signal at a rate much higher than this averaging time will be invisible. You or I can certainly detect flicker in a standard 24 fps movie, or for that matter in a 40 fps TV picture (If you couldn't, a TV screen of 'snow' would look smooth gray). Can the eye detect flicker in film at 60 fps? I don't know. I suspect that you could under good conditions, but movies aren't test cards; they are rarely very bright, and the 'black time' between frames is considerably less than the time a frame is on the screen. Also, the 500 pulse/second figure I gave is the upper limit for NERVE cells. The sampling rate for photoreceptors may be lower, and is almost certainly so at theatre light intensities. I don't usually pay attention to the frequently visible strobing in movies or on television. It is something that I ignore in a manner very similar to the 'willing suspension of disbelief' I use when reading SF. It is there though, and I am sure that it detracts from the realism of the experience at some subconscious level. At 60 fps it may actually be eliminated, or at least become far less noticeable even subliminaly. I will certainly go out of my way to see ShowScan when it reaches NY, and I have hopes that it will live up to every bit of hype. I hope that I DON'T have to buy fast-food pizza to see it. see you on the radio, Peter Trei oc.trei%cu20b@columbia-20.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 May 1984 23:30 EDT From: RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: hplabs!tektronix!orca!mako!davidl@UCB-VAX.ARPA Subject: high frame rates / strobing The Emulsifilter process is done by Acme Animation (I kid you not. Does Wile E. Coyote buy from them?) I saw that demo as part of a SIGGRAPH demo reel (#7, and worth it for the Cranston-Csuri and III [Looker] sections.) Acme does traditional style animation with computers. They seem to do mostly Carrier Air Conditioning ads if you only watch the tape. Emulsifilter has been universally judged much inferior to normal film or video by everyone who has seen my copy of the tape. It looks something like you had put gelatin on the lens and turned up the blue too high. One of my friends claims that the problem with video is that it looks too clear, so people who have been conditioned to film are distracted, but I feel the Acme process would probably be worse. James (JMTURN@MIT-MC.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 84 21:11:40-PST (Tue) From: decvax!cca!ima!ism780!jim @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: FTL and Time Travel Challenge You cannot cause a paradox. A true paradox by its very nature indicates the use of a semantically meaningless or ambiguous term. Does the set of all sets which do not contain themselves contain itself? This very question indicates that "the set" does not exist. If God is omnipotent, can she create a stone so heavy she cannot lift it? This question indicates a semantic weakness in the notion of omnipotence (not to mention the notion of God). If I go back in time and kill my grandfather, will I cease to exist? If the future I came from is different from the future resulting from an act I commit in the historical past, then *they are different* and there is no reason to think that one affects the other. A multiple universe model provides a better view of such situations; David Gerrold explores this to the point of nausea in "The Man Who Folded Himself". Heinlein's stories "By His Bootstraps" and "All You Zombies", and various cheap copies of those, are entertaining precisely because there is no "paradox"; he sets up a feedback situation such that all the changes result in a future identical to that which the characters have already experienced. Note that, although the character in "By His Bootstraps" lives through discontinuous historical periods and encounters himself at various developmental stages, from his point of view there is only one of him, with a linear developmental history; he is born, he grows old, he dies. Nothing circular involved. Ditto for the "little black book". As for where the knowledge of the translations written in the little black book came from, that is an amusing existential question. -- Jim Balter (decvax!yale-co!ima!jim) ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 84 16:19:16-PST (Thu) From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!tierney @ Ucb-Vax Subject: CONTACT - (nf) CONTACT A SYMPOSIUM OF ANTHROPOLOGY AND SCIENCE FICTION Science fiction contacts real science at CONTACT, a three day Conference in Santa Cruz, CA May 4-6. You're invited to join, in the intimate setting of the Pasatiempo Inn, Larry Niven, Jerry Pournelle, C.J. Cherryh, Paul Bohannan, Joel Hagen, David Brin and other special guests to examine the possibilities offered by the connection between anthropology and science fiction. CONTACT is not a typical science fiction convention. Registration is $40, and we will limit the number of registrants to 350, so pre-registration is urged. For more information, call (408) 425-6301, 476-8312, or write: CONTACT c/o Anthropology Dept. Cabrillo College Aptos CA 95003 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 4-May SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #76 *** EOOH *** Date: 4 May 84 1209-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #76 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 4 May 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 76 Today's Topics: Books - Aspirin & Heinlein & MacAvoy, Films - 70MM Film Bonanza (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 3 May 1984 17:56 EDT (Thu) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" Subject: Aspirin's "Another Fine Myth" In answer to your question, this series is extremely funny, if you appreciate a combination tongue-in-cheek/slapstick style humour. The story is about a demon/wizard named Aahz (no, no relation) and his apprentice Skeeve, from the dimension Klah. Aahz, I should explain, is from Perv, which makes him a Pervert, except to his face. The series starts with Aahz being stranded in Klah, after losing his powers (temporarily, they'll be back in a hundred years or so), and follows its not so logical course from there. The title by the way, is from the following quote: "That's another fine myth you've gotten me into!" --Lor L. and Har D. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 84 8:32:29-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!iddic!rickc @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: psychics in Heinlein Wait a minute! What are 'psychic powers' except abilities to perform powerful or otherwise useful tasks without using technology? W. F. Jones' ability to tap magical powers in Waldo certainly seems 'psychic' to me. Perhaps the confusion stems from the 'psychic researchers' attempts to be credible and classify their phenomonae. Since none of their classified effects have been clearly reproducible, I feel free to include any strange, non-technological powers that an individual has as 'psychic'. I Will Fear No Evil: The Joan-Johann connection might have been physical, but what about the connection with Jake? Stranger in a Strange Land: What precludes a 'psychic' power from being learned? Seems to me the whole psychic field is based on the idea that current science is incomplete about its knowledge of the nature of reality. Methuselah's Children: Electromagnetic radiation is not an explanation for the group mind. Any such radiation would be immediately detected by the ship's instruments. (An aside: for a description of radio based telepathy see Olaf Stapledon's First and Last Men.) My personal opinion is that Heinlein makes the statement in The Number of the Beast and I Will Fear No Evil that the noted effects are real, not imaginary. Rick Coates tektronix!iddic!rickc ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 84 2:08:49-PST (Sat) From: harpo!ulysses!burl!clyde!akgua!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn @ Ucb-Vax Subject: It's Gene and Roger time! It's always much more interesting to see two reviewers disagree than to see just one reviewer's platitudes. I think that was the big plus in format of the original SNEAK PREVIEWS (a PBS movie review TV show). This is just the sort of thing I was hoping to stir up. Mr. Cain, however, seems to have taken my put-down of the novel TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON somewhat more seriously than I would have -- he actually gave the review to Ms. MacAvoy, and forwarded her irate response to me... Ms. MacAvoy has rightly pointed out that the superficial biographical information in my review was derived from an interview in LOCUS #278 (March 1984) and should have been so credited; it was not my intention to be discourteous to LOCUS, as Ms. MacAvoy seemed to imply. I like LOCUS and recommend it to everybody who reads SF-LOVERS -- you'll find more useful information there (including better reviews :-) than you'll find in this forum. Ms. MacAvoy also says that I had no business relating her first name, which she prefers to keep out of the public eye (despite the fact that the LOCUS article starts with ' A. MacAvoy's first published novel, TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON, ...' -- perhaps this was an editorial oversight). Oh well. As long as I'm handing out credit, I should note that the background information in the review of Gene Wolfe's THE WOLFE ARCHIPELAGO came from the [very good!] introduction to that book. On to Mr. Cain's letter... I shall quote in full lest I be accused of quoting out of context: Date: Wed 25 Apr 84 10:15:24-PST From: CAIN@SRI-AI.ARPA Subject: TEA rebuttal In regards to Donn Seeley's review of R. A. MacAvoy's TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON: I think the review missed the mark. In fact, reviews like this which do little more than summarize the plot of a book have never impressed me as being fair to the author. The plots of many of my favorite books sound pretty trite when put through such a narrow filter. It certainly is true that a summary of the plot of TEA makes it sound weak. It is also true that some good books are also hard to summarize in this way. This does not, of course, imply that TEA is one such book. At any rate I think a review without a reasonable plot summary is unfair to the reader. To me, the impact of a book comes from a less tangible source; from the writer's commitment to the story. This expresses itself in the writer's ability to conjure true-to-life characters, to engage them in dialogue in which I feel a part, and then to confront them with problems to draw them out of themselves. If the writer fails in these, then I am tempermentally incapable of reading the story. For that reason, two out of every three books I start end up in the trash by page seven. However, any story succeeding in these things finds a home on my bookshelves. Hm. I seem to hang on to the end of every book, regardless of how bad the prospects are. Sometimes I regret the experience. Sometimes (as with TEA) I merely feel let down. I personally think that part of the favorable reaction from hackers is due to the (quite tangible) fact that the book deals with computers. Hey, I'm a hacker too -- one of the reasons I got the book was to see what fun it had with computers. I was disappointed. By the way, I like strong characters too (see below). TEA is the kind of book I read with pleasure. The characters begin to come to life in the first sentence and are allowed to grow and to change throughout the book. The dialogues are fun to read, and the plot, though simple, is calculated to explore each of the character's strengths and weaknesses. It is the kind of book which goes onto a smallish shelf I have for books to be re-read every couple years. Here is where we diverge. I came to TEA with great anticipation after having read several reviews that described it as 'wonderful', 'a delight', and so on. I was prepared to be resigned to a superficial treatment of computers and the world of hacking, although I hoped for better; I wasn't so happy to find the flat dialogue, the wandering point of view, the insipidness of the characters, the hokiness of the plot. I don't want to stomp all over the book -- the narrative problems are not bad compared to some authors' first novels. But given the reviews I expected to find much more than I found. I compare this reaction to my feelings after having read THE WILD SHORE by Kim Stanley Robinson, another first novel in the set of books which I reviewed: I really had a moving experience with SHORE, the characters behaved like real people, did things I did not expect, and the narrative was pleasantly mature and polished, with lovely imagery and realistic plotting. TEA is inferior (my humble opinion) yet has had much more praise lavished upon it. That Seeley's review summarizes the main woman character (Martha) as "dotty" or the main man (Mayland) as "reclusive" tells me the two of us read distinctly different books inside the same cover. No mention is made of the fact that this love story involves two people over the age of 50 (one possibly much older), or that the most intriguing mystery is Mayland Long's past. Mention of the distinctly Zen/Tao flavor of the book is also omitted. The age of the leading characters didn't strike me as particularly relevant. The Zen or Tao 'flavor' of the book was just that, a flavor, and perhaps my main gripe against the book is that it is very unrevealing about the culture of dragons or even about Taoism. It is true that the resolution of the 'plot' involves the quest for the Dragon to see the Way, but after pages and pages of machinations with computers and ruthless criminals it is hardly the central plot event it should have been. I think the story would have been much more interesting (to me at any rate) if computers had been left out entirely and the book devoted to the events of Long's quest. In addition, Seeley refers to the cover blurbs as "overkill." Do I rightly hear him saying the book did not deserve the favorable reviews it received from others (which is tactless at best)? Am I then to assume that nominations received by TEA for the Nebula, the Hugo, the John Campbell, the Phillip K. Dick, and the Compton Crook awards are mere gaudy trappings? Tsk, another person calls me tactless. I imagine that personality defect is all too obvious now that I have undertaken to respond to this message at such unbearable length... I certainly think other reviewers are entitled to their opinions. The remark about the 'overkill' on the cover was simply to express my feelings about the fact that the book jacket scorns a plot summary in favor of simply listing quotes from reviewers (very enthusiastic quotes, I'll admit that right away). Much better books in 1983 (my opinion again) received lesser favors from the publisher. I must say I am at a loss to explain why TEA is a nominee for the Hugo when books like Wolfe's THE CITADEL OF THE AUTARCH, Benford's AGAINST INFINITY and Spinrad's THE VOID CAPTAIN'S TALE were passed over. (Fortunately all three are on the Nebula ballot. Curiously, only TEA and Brin's STARTIDE RISING managed to make both ballots. You may be interested to know that TEA came in second for the Philip K. Dick award, after Tim Powers' THE ANUBIS GATES. All this from LOCUS issues #279 and #280.) TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON is emphatically NOT science fiction -- I'm confused about why it is up for science fiction awards. Of course I have been confused about this before (I like the remark attributed to Alfred Bester which I read in Richard Lupoff's WHAT IF? series -- 'The fans -- the wonderful, demented, fans...'). LYONESSE by Jack Vance, equally non-science-fictional, is up for a Nebula. Oh well. Sorry, but for all these reasons I feel the review was unfair to a very good book. Ron Cain CAIN@SRI-AI I'm afraid it just wasn't my cup of (ouch!) tea. Donn Seeley UCSD Chemistry Dept. 32 52' 30"N 117 14' 25"W (619) 452-4016 ucbvax!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn sdcsvax!sdchema!donn@nosc.ARPA PS Hey, you didn't think I was finished without repeating how to get a subscription to 'LOCUS, the Newspaper of the Science Fiction Field'? For a 1-year subscription, send $24 to LOCUS Publications, PO Box 13305, Oakland CA 94661. Enjoy. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 84 15:15:26-PST (Sat) From: harpo!ulysses!mhuxl!abnjh!cbspt005 @ Ucb-Vax Subject: 70MM Film Bonanza 70MM Exhibition Craze The number of theaters with 70MM Six Track Dolby Stereo presentation capability is rapidly expanding, with Dolby Labs estimating that some 600 screens will be in operation in the U.S. by the end of 1984. At this point in time, some 470 U.S. theaters have Dolby's CP200 six track stereo sound processor for 70MM and 51 additional packages have been sold in the past four months, a combination of new screens and upgrading existing facilities. Since Dolby Labs will only build 12 units a month through December, this translates to some 600 units by Christmas. The prospective 600 screen total does not include specialized 70MM theaters, including IMAX and OMNIMAX theaters, Douglas Trumbull's Showscan sites and Walt Disney's shows at EPCOT, Disney World, and Disneyland. 18 70MM Releases Scheduled Paramount is aiming at having the widest release yet in the wide gauge for its May 23 opening of Lucasfilm's "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom", targeted for some 200 prints in 70MM! The final total will be between 175 and 210 screens. This should break the record of 169 70MM prints held by MGM/UA's "Brainstorm" in September, 1983. "Jones" will have an additional 1200 35MM houses playing from day one. A week later (June 1), Paramount will debut "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock" on a massive 1700 theater break, including 100 70MM sites. Last summer, "Return of the Jedi" set box office records when it opened wide at 1002 theaters including 164 70MM houses. Other upcoming 70MM fare from the major distributors will probably have less populous wide-gauge print runs, following Warner Brothers' current use of 15 70MM prints for "Greystoke". The final decision of whether to blow up a particular picture to 70MM for release is still tentative, but the distributors summer plans for 70MM are as follows: Columbia's "Ghostbusters" and "Sheena, Queen of the Jungle" Universal's "Streets of Fire" and "The Last Starfighter" Warner Brothers "Gremlins", "Once Upon A Time in America" (Ladd Co.) and "Tightrope" There is no word yet on other likely candidates for 70MM, such as Warner Brothers' "Supergirl" and 20th-Fox/Sherwood's "Buckaroo Banzai", latter title currently being mixed in six-track stereo, just in case. Unlike "Brainstorm", which featured Super Panavision (65MM) principal photography for many scenes, the upcoming films are generally being shot in 35MM formats, later to be blown up to 70MM release prints. Several, such as "Indiana Jones" and "Ghostbusters", feature special visual effects material filmed in wide screen processes such as VistaVision or Super Panavision, but not for the live action. This is different from Showscan and IMAX, which actually film in the larger formats. Fall releases in 70MM are planned for Orion's "Amadeus" and Columbia's remake of "The Razor's Edge". The big news come Christmas is the impressive lineup of pictures earmarked for 70MM release: Columbia's "A Passage to India" by David Lean, whose 1960's productions were also 70MM releases. Disney-Buena Vista's "Baby" MGM/UA's "2010: Odyssey II" Universal's "Dune" and "The River" Warner Brothers "City Heat" No decision has yet been made on Orion's "The Cotton Club" and other Yuletide fare, which could add to the list. For 1985, so far Disney-Buena Vista's "OZ" and "The Black Cauldron" (latter animated picture being filmed in VistaVision to facilitate wide gauge release prints) will be in 70MM, with the intention of servicing every exhibitor request for a 70MM print with same. Tri-Star Pictures' $50M production of "Santa Claus" will also be released in 70MM. -Eric Carter AT&T-IS Morristown, NJ allegra!abnjh!cbspt005 ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 84 8:16:10-PDT (Sun) From: ihnp4!we13!burl!clyde!watmath!watcgl!dmmartindale @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: 70MM Film Bonanza What is the reason for releasing a 70mm print of a film that was originally shot on 35mm stock? The resolution is going to be determined by the original 35mm film. (I would expect that the film stock used for the release prints would have grain at least as fine as the original negative, since it can be made as slow as the film manufacturer likes). ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 7-May SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #77 *** EOOH *** Date: 7 May 84 1449-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #77 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 7 May 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 77 Today's Topics: Books - Dick (2 msgs) & Herbert & Leiber (2 msgs) & MacAvoy (2 msgs) & Varley & Nebula Awards for 1983 & SF and Sex Films - 70MM Film Bonanza (3 msgs), Miscellaneous - A Lesson in Arabic ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 30 Apr 84 10:34:07-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!cas @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Man in the High Castle I agree, I didn't care for "The Man in the High Castle" and I can't imagine HOW it won a Hugo. I found it terribly dull - interesting idea, but poorly done. In answer to the question, it is Science Fiction in that it is depicting a parallel universe. I would agree that in this case, this is a weak usage of the term. Cliff Shaffer ...!rlgvax!cvl!cas ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 84 22:19:56-PDT (Mon) From: decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Man in the High Castle (SPOILER) I'm surprised no one has helped answer this question: Date: 24 Apr 1984 12:16-EST From: Bob.Colwell@CMU-CS-G.ARPA Subject: Man in the High Castle ... Why is this book [Dick's] "greatest masterpiece"? What was the point? Somebody please tell me -- I had to force myself through 3/4's of the book, and only the last 3 pages were interesting. And I still didn't understand. The last three pages explain it all. If you didn't think the explanation there did any good, then my explanation will go right past you too. Apart from the novelty of Dick's book apparently being the result of I Ching predictions about how the Second World War resulted, there is a book contained inside CASTLE (THE GRASSHOPPER LIES HEAVY by Hawthorne Abendsen) which is in turn the result of I Ching predictions made in CASTLE's alternate universe. The I Ching in our universe appears to predict the universe of THE MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE, while the I Ching in the universe of CASTLE appears to predict a universe like ours instead. (Not exactly like ours, it's true.) This 'strange loop' or Yin-Yang symbolism is peculiar enough, but the predictions are twisted still further: the point of the book is that the literal conclusion of THE GRASSHOPPER LIES HEAVY is in fact the metaphorical conclusion of THE MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE: Germany and Japan LOST THE WAR, although they appeared to win it. Without this explanation, none of the preceding action with Mr. Tagomi makes any sense whatsoever. The lesson as applied to the real world I leave as an exercise for the reader. Not to pick nits, but THE MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE is a much better Zen book than a certain other book reviewed in this space recently. Does anyone else have a different interpretation of CASTLE? (By the way, Dick was always very fond of 'strange loops' or self-referential situations; if you like these then try UBIK -- the entire book is a self-referential joke. [Yes, boys and girls, 'taken as directed, Ubik provides uninterrupted sleep without morning-after grogginess. You awaken fresh, ready to tackle all those little annoying problems facing you. Do not exceed recommended dosage.']) Oh, yeah, one more thing. What makes this book science fiction? As opposed to fantasy? It depends on how you classify alternate-world fiction in general, I think. Some people consider time travel to be purely fantasy and won't admit that a story about time travel can be science fiction, because IT COULDN'T REALLY HAPPEN. Alternate-world novels have the same problem except in a more severe form: 'It DIDN'T really happen.' I personally tend to dodge the issue and try to classify SF as 'speculative fiction' rather than 'science fiction', in which case books like CASTLE fit right in, as social and philosophical speculation. Of course I may just be dense (don't quote me here) and what you're really trying to say is CASTLE isn't STARSHIP TROOPERS or THE GRAY LENSMAN, in which case you're quite right, and we have nothing to discuss. (But I don't think so, otherwise why would you have picked up CASTLE at all?) A Dick fan, Donn Seeley UCSD Chemistry Dept. 32 52' 30"N 117 14' 25"W (619) 452-4016 ucbvax!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn sdcsvax!sdchema!donn@nosc.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Sun 6 May 84 00:21:05-EDT From: Peter G. Trei Subject: A man of principle speaks... A quote from Frank Herbert, author of DUNE, DUNE MESSIAH, CHILDREN OF DUNE, GOD-EMPEROR OF DUNE, and HERETICS OF DUNE: "I'm still against the idea of sequels in principle, because it's like watering down your wine all the time until you're left with just water." -: from an interview in LOCUS, May 1984 ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 84 10:48:50-PDT (Mon) From: decvax!mcnc!ncsu!ncrcae!usceast!ted @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Fritz Leiber -- Actor? Actually, that was probably the father of Fritz Leiber the sf writer. Mr. Leiber Sr. was a character actor in a number of old costume dramas. Talent seems to run in the family, Justin Leiber is an sf writer also. Ted Nolan usceast!ted 6536 Brookside Circle Columbia, SC 29206 (feather the rast!) ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 84 13:51:48-PDT (Wed) From: ihnp4!ihu1g!fish @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Fritz Leiber -- Actor? (oo) It could just be a coincidental name, but I think it might be possible. Fritz Leiber once wrote a story called "The Darfsteller," which was about an aging actor. Possibly, he drew this from his own experiences. Bob Fishell ihnp4!ihu1g!fish ------------------------------ Date: Fri 4 May 84 14:35:59-PDT From: CAIN@SRI-AI.ARPA Subject: Rerebuttal about TEA Sigh. If Donn Seeley and I can't agree to disagree soon, we will generate enough verbiage between us to outweigh the novel under dispute, TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON. I appreciate his crediting LOCUS. It really is a good magazine and deserves to be referenced. And, yes, it was an editorial slipup which saw R.A. MacAvoy's first name in print. She is not secretive, but expressed her intentions regarding her name rather plainly when she put it on the cover of the book. I also appreciate Mr. Seeley's sprinklings of "in my opinion" throughout his rebuttal. The whole point I was trying to make in my original response is that a review represents no more (or less) than the reviewer's opinion. To make sweeping statements about the book (or worse, about the author) as if they are facts easily discernible to any reader is overstepping the bounds of criticism. It is fine to talk that way to your friends (who theoretically know how often to believe you), but it does not belong in a published (destination unknown) review. The other point I wish to make now is that it is the reviewer's responsibility (yes, there are responsibilities to this job) to have a thorough grasp of a book's strengths and weaknesses. In most cases, two readings should be enough. If there is not time for reading the book twice, there is not enough time for a review. If the book is not worth reading twice (which is where Mr. Seeley and I disagree most regarding TEA), then the review should say just that. He calls the dialogue "flat", the point of view "wandering", the characters "insipid", and the plot "hokey." Whew! It is lucky for us both to be 500 miles apart and my fencing skills with the foil to be a tad rough. I call the dialogue "alive", the point of view "incisive", and the characters "delightful". I feel strongly that the book is good. I have read it three times now. Mr. Seeley feels it is, well, less than good, and would likely not care to read it again. We agree to disagree. But let us tentatively agree to both read it in ten years and compare notes. Okay? A couple last points worth making. R.A. MacAvoy worked as a computer programmer for 3 years and knows her way around computers as well as most of us. That the computer aspect of the book was minimized owes to the fact she felt it was of minor importance to the plot or to the advancement of the characters. Her choice. Second, regarding his statement "much better books in 1983 received lesser favors from the publisher" which was addressed to the large number of favorable reviews on the cover -- let me point out that the publisher circulates an early release and collects reviews from outsiders. Although these "outsiders" could say anything they want, giving a favorable review to a bad book will only damage their credibility. The publisher certainly chooses what gets to go on the cover in quotes, but does not get to write it. Those terse quotations are excerpts from other reviewers, some of whose opinions I happen to respect. It is nice to know I am not alone in my feelings about the book. One "yes" vote, and one "no" vote, then. And now, Gene, let's have a look at the dogs of the week ... Ron Cain cain@sri-ai ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 84 19:32:07-PDT (Mon) From: agb @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: TEA rebuttal I wholly agree with the rebuttal -- Tea with the Black Dragon is one of those books that you want to read as slowly as possible -- can't bear to have it end... Now, *Damiano*, on the other hand (The 2nd [?] book by R.A. MacAvoy [sp?]), I found to be "one of those books that end up in the trash before the seventh page"... I just could not stomach it, and put it down after about 20 pages, never to be picked up again... Is this book really worth reading? Am I missing a book as good as black dragon? Alexander Burchell [agb@ucbarpa] [ucbvax!agb] ------------------------------ Date: 10 Apr 84 8:14:59-PST (Tue) From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!iddic!rickc @ Ucb-Vax Subject: [4mDemon[0m Hey! I just saw (in Forthcoming Books in Print) that Varley is FINALLY publishing [4mDemon[0m, the third book in his Gaea series. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 May 1984 14:26:06 EDT From: Another Memo from the Etherial Plane From: Subject: Nebula Award Winners for 1983 The winners of this year's Nebula awards are as follows: NOVEL: "Startide Rising," David Brin (Bantam) NOVELLA: "Hardfought", Greg Bear (Asimov's, 2/83) NOVELETTE: "Blood Music," Greg Bear (Analog, 6/83) SHORT STORY: "The Peacemaker", Gardner Dozois (Asimov's, 8/83) GRAND MASTER: Andre Norton. (For those who were wondering, 'Dozois' is pronounced Doe-zwah.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri 4 May 84 02:06:07-CDT From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA Subject: sf & sex ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ sf & SEX ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Now that I have your undivided attention...! A few issues back Donn Seeley referred to Rucker's SEX SPHERE as the dirtiest SF novel [known to him]. Has anybody read both it and YOLANDA: THE GIRL FROM EROSPHERE, or YOLANDA: SLAVES OF SPACE? They're the dirtiest \I've/ ever encountered-- especially the latter. A cosmopolitan-type friend told me they were as dirty as anything he'd seen in Paris, which figures, since they're translated from French. I don't mind reading porn once in a while, if it's witty. And I've no objection to SF's containing sex-- or religion, or politics, or whatever-- so long as it's integral to the story. (Just started Busby's new `Rissa' book, ALIEN DEBT, today, and there's already an irrelevant sex scene on p_ 5. Darn it! Busby's too good a story-teller to have to "spice it up"!) But I tend to be somewhat dubious of porn+SF combinations. Not always-- LAID IN THE FUTURE in the soft-core "Lady from L.U.S.T" series by Rod Grey is a great put-on. But when SF conventions are used to jazz up the monotony of porn so it can get marketed \as/ SF, it really gripes me. And that's all the YOLANDA series is. They were paperbacks from Grove Press (dunno if that's a porn publisher, per se, or not) in 1975 & 1976, and the earlier one was distributed by Dell. It sure wasn't a Laurel Leaf! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 May 84 14:32:22 edt From: mar@mit-borax (Mark A. Rosenstein) Subject: Re: 70MM Film Bonanza A big advantage in releasing a print in 70MM, even though it was filmed in 35MM is wear. Even in the best theaters a print will pick up dust and scratches as it is shown. The better theaters will replace a feature print every two or three weeks, but many will show the same print for the entire run. With 70MM film, a scratch on the print will only be one quarter the size on the screen as the same scratch on a 35MM print. Thus one is less likely to see a poor print in 70MM than in 35MM. -Mark ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 84 12:41:04-PDT (Sun) From: harpo!ulysses!mhuxl!abnjh!cbspt005 @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: 70MM Film Bonanza When blowing up a 35MM negative to 70MM, it is true that one gets no improvement in the resolution of the original image (something from nothing?), but the image is sharper and clearer and suffers less geometric distortion because you are not using the anamorphic lenses that 35MM Panavision uses, for instance, to make a wide screen image. These lenses "unsqueeze" the image from the film to fill out the screen in a 2.35:1 aspect ratio. Flat 70MM projection will give you a 2.21:1 aspect ratio and a brighter image to boot. The six-track Magnetic Dolby Stereo sound quality is much better than the 4-track 35MM Dolby Stereo optical soundtrack, as well. More extended low and high frequency response, larger dynamic range, and superior signal to noise ratios are some of the benefits. The result of a 70MM release print, which costs about 6-7 times as much to make as a 35MM print, is greater impact of the movie-going experience. I challenge anyone to view a properly presented film in 70MM and then in 35MM and to state their preference. "To better films and better film venues!" -Eric Carter AT&T-IS Morristown, NJ allegra!abnjh!cbspt005 ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 84 11:17:20-PDT (Mon) From: harpo!ulysses!burl!clyde!watmath!utzoo!utcsrgv!oscar @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: 70MM Film Bonanza A 35 mm print of a 35 mm original is of *poorer* quality than the 35 mm original. By making a 70 mm print you can minimize the loss of detail. Of course, a 70 mm original is better yet. You can see the same sort of thing when you get a super 8 contact print of a super 8 original and a 16 mm optical print of the same original. The 16 mm print will be much better. Oscar Nierstrasz ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 84 9:11:00-PDT (Mon) From: ihnp4!ihuxt!martillo @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Toronto book stores Bakka is (I believe -- it is hard to tell in Roman letters) an Arabic word meaning someone who weeps. In Hebrew, it would be Bokheh. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 7-May SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #78 *** EOOH *** Date: 7 May 84 1526-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #78 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 7 May 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 78 Today's Topics: Books - Dick (3 msgs) & Kurland & MacAvoy, Films - Dune (2 msgs) & 70MM Films & Star Wars (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - How to Get Rich ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 1 May 84 21:01:29-PDT (Tue) From: decvax!cca!ima!ism780!paul @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Man in the High Castle > I just read Philip Dick's "The Man in the High Castle" ... Why is > this book his "greatest masterpiece"? It happens to be the one that won a Hugo award (1962 or 3?). He's written worse, but also much better. My favorites are "All We Marsmen" (published as "Martian Time-Slip" by idiot publishers) and "The Divine Invasion". > What was the point? Somebody please tell me -- I had to force > myself through 3/4's of the book, and only the last 3 pages were > interesting. And I still didn't understand. When I first encountered Dick's writing, I didn't like it - it didn't read like "real SF". Years later I gave him another try, and was hooked. People generally react one way or the other. > Oh, yeah, one more thing. What makes this book science fiction? > (Other than the label on the front cover that says "Berkley (sic) > science fiction") Well, the publishing industry defines "science fiction" as "books that have the words `science fiction' on the cover". Actually, the fact that it takes place in an "alternate" or "parallel" universe contemporary with but different from our own (you DID notice, didn't you :-)) makes it SF, I guess. Paul Perkins ...{uscvax|ucla-vax|vortex}!ism780!paul ...decvax!yale-co!ima!ism780!paul "If you don't see the fnord, it can't eat you. Don't see the fnord..." ------------------------------ Date: 1 May 84 22:13:24-PDT (Tue) From: decvax!decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian @ Ucb-Vax Subject: HIGH CASTLE: Just what is sf, anyway? > Oh, yeah, one more thing. What makes this book science fiction? > (Other than the label on the front cover that says "Berkley (sic) > science fiction") > Bob (Bob.Colwell@cmu-cs-g.ARPA) Well, I suppose it all depends on what you consider to be science fiction (Rich- ard McKenna, ofttimes sf author, had said on occasion that he thought that his "mainstream" novel, THE SAND PEBBLES, was science fiction --- the science was sociology (of course, there are those who don't think that sociology is a valid science)). Individuals have their own standards, but there are certain concepts that are generally accepted to be "science fiction": space travel, time travel, atomic wars, stories clearly set in the future, alien invasions, etc. One of the more interesting of these concepts is that of the "alternate history", of which THE MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE is a perfect example. Perhaps this could be a good topic for discussion here. Here's something to chew on: is SPACE by James Michener sf? It's about space travel, but it does not present any technology that we don't already have. Certainly the characters and situations are largely fictional, but it's really just a recent-historical novel about the space program. Think about it. <"Science fiction is what I point to and say, `That's science fiction'!"> --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard) UUCP: (decvax!decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian) ARPA: (decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian@Shasta) ------------------------------ Date: 1 May 84 8:20:08-PDT (Tue) From: ihnp4!drutx!houxe!hogpc!houti!ariel!vax135!floyd!cmcl2!lanl-a!un From: m-cvax!unmvax!moret @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Man in the High Castle et alia I am getting *very* irritated with net.sf-lovers. After a flurry of articles finding Solaris--which is one of the 10-20 greatest SF novels ever, and surely a masterpiece on the nature of communication--I had to encounter two articles wondering what everybody thought was so great about Dick's Man in the High Castle... (I don't think that one has to remember WWII to react to that book; I wasn't born by 1945. There is a lot to get out of Dick's novel, about everyday life, about cultural influence, about human values, but most of all about the meaning of reality. Why is it SF? Well, why is LeGuin's magnificent The Dispossessed classified as SF? It's just a label and should not imply anything more than "fiction based upon a different view of the world"; doesn't SF mean Speculative Fiction?). From the content of these articles about Lem and Dick and several other news articles (such as the running commentary about FTL travel and high-speed cameras), I must conclude that I have subscribed to the wrong newsgroup. Imagine: I thought that this newsgroup was for people interested in SF *literature*, for people who considered SF a form of *art*, NOT a form of technical writing. ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 7 May 1984 06:14:29-PDT From: goldenberg%vaxwrk.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Ruth Goldenberg) Subject: Inquiry about Michael Kurland's PLURIBUS This is in response to Craig MacFarlane's request in issue #71 for information on PLURIBUS by Michael Kurland. The back cover description of the book, which is pretty accurate, says "Somewhere on the crumbling road between the Palisades Encave in California and the remains of the Chicago Spaceport, a brightly-painted wagon rumbles along on the last rubber tires in the world. Mordecai Lehrer is moving east. His wagon is a traveling medicine show, a peddler's pack, home for part-time magicians - and a courier service for Earth's last enclaves of scientific knowledge. Ninety percent of Earth's population perished in the Death, and the remaining ten blame the perils of godless science for that terrible plague. They would destroy the science-enclaves if they could - and they grow bolder day by day. "But the enclaves know what the people cannot; scientists in the Mars colony have discovered that the plague will inevitably be followed by a mutant form virulent enough to wipe out all the survivors of the first siege. Mars has also found a vaccine, and even now a suicidal mission of mercy is racing toward the ruins of the Chicago spaceport. "Meanwhile Mordecai Lehrer bumps across the plains of the west, carrying precious instructions from the California enclave on how to grow and use the vaccine. He travels in secret, and in fear, for all around him are the people whose lives will be saved if he succeeds - and who would kill him gladly to ensure his failure." I enjoyed it the first time around and the second-time skimming I did to see if the title were explained anywhere. I missed any explanation, but would guess it's taken from "E Pluribus Unum". The US is fragmented into many different territories with different money, governments, and leaders. About the only communication not done by word of mouth or hand-carried letters is among the enclaves and between one of them and the Mars colony, using jury-rigged radio parts and hand-cranked generators. In my opinion, the dialogue and main character [Mordecai the Mensch] are definitely a cut above average, although the book would have benefited from more development of some of its subsidiary threads and characters. It's not a great book, but it's a very pleasant read. The book was published by Ace in 1980. The publisher's book number is 67145-4. Ruth Goldenberg ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 84 2:12:07-PDT (Wed) From: decvax!decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Sf or fantasy -- who cares?? > TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON is emphatically > NOT science fiction -- I'm confused about why it is up for science > fiction awards. Of course I have been confused about this before > (I like the remark attributed to Alfred Bester which I read in > Richard Lupoff's WHAT IF? series -- 'The fans -- the wonderful, > demented, fans...'). LYONESSE by Jack Vance, equally > non-science-fictional, is up for a Nebula. Oh well. > Donn Seeley UCSD Chemistry Dept. > ucbvax!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn Just what is this concern about whether something is sf or fantasy? Traditionally, the term "science fiction" is taken to include fantasy of various flavors as well. [Actually, traditionally, sf should be considered a subset of fantasy.] Until the last ten years or so, when fantasy *really* became a marketable product separate from sf, fans simply lumped the two into one genre. The Nebulas and Hugos have always considered stories in both fields; just because the Hugos are labelled "the Science Fiction Achievement Awards" and the Nebulas are awarded by the "Science Fiction Writers of America" doesn't mean that they should ignore fantasy. Some years back, Lin Carter tried to start a separate series of awards for fantasy (actually, only two per year were ever given out, for Best Novel and for Grand-Master) called the Gandalfs, but they eventually bit the dust. We also now have a series of World Fantasy Conventions with its own set of awards (the Howies -- after H. P. Lovecraft) which garner great prestige themselves, but this still hasn't deterred fans from nominating and voting fantasy stories for the Hugos. An interesting aside is that the World Fantasy Con members tend more to separationism than do sf fans. In general, the trend is toward, though by no means exclusively, "dark fantasy" (ie. horror). There tends to be few stories generally considered sf nominated for the Howies (a couple of Wolfe's New Sun novels are recent exceptions). As a matter of fact, Stephen King turned down a nomination for THE DEAD ZONE as Best Novel one year because he felt that the book was sf and not fantasy. I tend to prefer hard sf to fantasy, myself, but let's not start getting into a mindset that demands picky categorization. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard) UUCP: (decvax!decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian) ARPA: (decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian@Shasta) ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 84 10:00:23-PDT (Sun) From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!houti!ariel!vax135!floyd!cmcl2!lanl-a!unm-cvax From: !unmvax!genix!drew @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Dune Notes Has my memory failed me as usual or was David Lynch the director of Eraserhead and Elephant Man. I was totatly amazed at how two films could be so similar and yet so different. Can't wait to see Dune in any event. Drew Einhorn {csu-cs,gatech,lanl-a,convex,pur-ee,ucbvax}!unmvax!genix!drew P.O. Box 781, Tijeras, NM 87059, USA. 505/281-1122 505/898-9666 ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 84 16:55:28-PDT (Mon) From: harpo!ulysses!mhuxl!abnjh!cbspt005 @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Dune Notes Yes, David Lynch did direct Eraserhead and The Elephant Man. Can't wait for Pearl Harbor Day, either. "Dune" and "2010"! -Eric Carter AT&T-IS Morristown, NJ allegra!abnjh!cbspt005 ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 84 9:32:58-PDT (Mon) From: upstill @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Why release a 35MM film in 70MM Two reasons: one, the grain of the print is not "determined" by the negative: there is image degradation due to grain at every stage, regardless of the target format; finer grain/wider format reduces the degradation. Secondly: brighter, sharper projection: the larger the film area, the more light you can jam through the print without toasting it. Next question... ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 84 19:01:00-PDT (Sun) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!smu!clardy @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #65 <> Simple and stupid. In the movie, Darth Vader specifically stated the he did not know that he had a daughter, and commented on how clever Obi-wan was for hiding her from him. Go watch it again. ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 84 13:48:43-PDT (Wed) From: ihnp4!ihu1g!fish @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: The Death Star Weapon (oo) It's not necessary for the Death Star weapon to supply all the energy to blow up the planet, any more than the small plutonium A-bomb that triggers the great, big fusion explosion in an H-bomb supplies all that energy. My hypothesis is that the Death-Star weapon has a catalytic effect on whatever it hits, causing nuclear reactions. Note that in ROTJ, the Death Star weapon was used to blow up space ships, but the energy available was limited to the size of the object. If it contained all the energy needed to blow up a planet, the whole fleet would have been destroyed, and we'd have had a rotten ending for the movie. This is not as far-fetched as it sounds. Experiments in controlled fusion use massive lasers to trigger fusion reactions. Perhaps the Death Star weapon is just an immensly powerful laser, or more likely, a particle beam weapon producing a high-energy wavefront. Consider the effects of bombarding fusionable Hydrogen with a powerful beam of, say, anti-protons. I think you could get something going. Bob Fishell ihnp4!ihu1g!fish ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 84 9:11:23-PDT (Sun) From: ihnp4!stolaf!jensenj @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: How to Get Rich with a Time Machine Thanks due to Will Martin for opening up this interesting topic, How to Get Rich With a Time Machine. Here are my thoughts: 1) I would play off of the idea that, at certain points throughout History, there have been situations in which a great many people would gladly have paid a dear sum for what, to others, may seem mundane and ordinary. The problem is that the Clock Broker (our agent we use to make us rich) cannot change History appreciably. Therefore, trading modern technology (Sony Betamaxes and Walkmans) to lesser developed cultures is right out. Are there periods in History when mundane, ordinary objects commanded a high price? Sure! What about the California Gold Rush of 1849? Such ordinary things as pickaxes, shovels, lodging and food were sold at ridiculously exorbitant prices and they were paid for in gold, a sure commodity all through the ages. Developing a pipeline from a modern day hardware store to 19th century California is as simple as turning a few knobs. And what about water? Haven't there been literally thousands of situations in which people would pay anything for a glass of water? (No, I haven't seen Ice Pirates yet.) 2) My second thought concerns mankind's tendency to make war. At those times men will pay dearly for supplies, ammunition, etc. It seems to me that, as long as the time traveler knows in advance who is to win what battle and why that he can indulge in a little black marketeering without affecting his own future. As an example, take Patton near the end of the European conflict in WWII. His push northward into Germany was halted due to a lack of fuel. Since, in an historical sense, the Allies were destined to win anyway, it may not have made a great deal of difference who reached Berlin first. Patton would have liked to do it himself and I'm sure, if offered the fuel from somewhere, he would have paid enough for it to make it worth one's while. Those are my thoughts for now. Lets open this topic up and have some serious discussions about it! Joel Jensen today, tomorrow, and forever ihnp4!stolaf1jensenj ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 8-May SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #79 *** EOOH *** Date: 8 May 84 1408-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #79 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 8 May 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 79 Today's Topics: Books - Goldman (2 msgs) & Kingsbury & MacAvoy & Vinge, Films - Faithful SF Films & 2010 & 70MM Films & Star Trek (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Time Travel (4 msgs) & Blowing Up the Earth ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 May 84 1:45:27-PDT (Wed) From: decvax!decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Goldman ?=? Morgenstern Did William Goldman actually write THE SILENT GONDOLIERS? The fact that S. Morgenstern's classic, A PRINCESS BRIDE, was totally fabricated by Goldman seems to lead people to make the perhaps unwarranted assumption that he wrote TSG as Morgenstern. I recall that 10 years ago, most people believed that Vonnegut was re- sponsible for VENUS IN THE HALFSHELL by "Kilgore Trout" when it was actually by Philip Jose Farmer. Likewise, a couple of years ago, my co-compiler and I, in our INDEX TO THE SCIENCE FICTION MAGAZINES: 1977, mistakenly assumed that the pseudonym John Thames Rokesmith on the story "Writers of the Purple Page" (F&SF 5/77) was Farmer, when it was actually Arthur Jean Cox. I don't have any evidence either way about whether Goldman did or didn't write THE SILENT GONDOLIERS, but I do question the blind assumption that he did. Actually, there is something that suggests that he didn't. His latest book (the title escapes me -- ??COLOR OF THE THE SKY??) has a list of his previous works, fiction and non-fiction. THE SILENT GONDOLIERS does not appear anywhere in the list (n.b. TSG was published last fall, while the newest book just appeared last month). Does anyone actually know one way or the other? --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard) UUCP: (decvax!decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian) ARPA: (decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian@Shasta) ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 84 3:34:26-PST (Sat) From: ihnp4!we13!burl!ulysses!gamma!mb2c!uofm-cv!janc @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: William Goldman I once checked Who's Who's entry on Goldman. His wife is not named Helen, and he has no son (two daughters if I remember right). Personally, I enjoyed the Princess Bride much more once I learned the introduction was fictitious. I still haven't figured out why my copy is subtitled "A Hot Fairy Tale." It is only slightly "hotter" than Tolkien (i.e. there is a girl in it). -- Jan Wolter ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 84 20:33:29-PDT (Sun) From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!houti!ariel!vax135!floyd!cmcl2!lanl-a!unm-cvax From: !janney @ Ucb-Vax Subject: re: the Wolfe Archipelago Now that Donald Kingsbury has published both "CourtShip Rite" and "The Shipwright", does anyone think that we will have long to wait for COURT SHIPWRIGHT ? :-) "It's only a model" shhh!! Jim Janney {{convex,ucbvax,gatech}!unmvax, {purdue,lbl-csam,cmcl2}!lanl-a}!unm-cvax!janney ------------------------------ From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Date: 6 May 84 18:06:09 EDT Subject: "True" Names... Uhh, the name is Asprin, not Aspirin; unless you were being ironic, and if you were you were being ironic indeed. (As anyone who knows the fellow personally will understand.) And I was disappointed to hear that R.A. MacAvoy gets bent out of shape when people "reveal" her first name. As a writer I can understand the uses to which pen names are put--and I know from experience that many people feel the taking of a pen name too seriously is a childish affectation. Hal Clement seems indifferent to the world knowing that he is really Harry Clement Stubbs. The work--and the man--each stand on its own. George Alex Effinger once really and truly wanted people to know him as "Piglet," and he lost a lot of respect from a lot of people (myself included) because of it. When one chooses a nickname rather than accepts one given from others, I call it an affectation. How you see yourself is always (for a writer) less important than how you are seen by others. I think TEA is a terrific book, by the way, part of a growing subgenre of "contemporary fantasy" which I see as a titanic relief after drowning in unicorns, cute elves, princesses, and stone castles these past few years. In the same category see The Land of Laughs by Jonathan (I think; book is upstairs) Carroll; peculiar but VERY satisfying. And as for "Grumpy" MacAvoy, well, perhaps after she wins the Hugo which she does in fact deserve, she will feel secure enough not to take reviews of her work too seriously--the groundswell of popular opinion far outweighs the idiosyncratic views of one (admittedly) biased reader. The lady is a helluva writer. Someday she may even grow up. --Jeff Duntemann "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the hot tub!" ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 84 9:42:00-PST (Sat) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uiuccsb!eich @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: True Names From Analog 5 (ancient anthology) I recall vividly a Vinge short story called "Bookworm, Run!" Anyone know if this is included in a currently available collection? Quite good. Brendan Eich ...uiucdcs!uiuccsb!eich ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 84 14:06:55-PDT (Wed) From: ihnp4!ihu1g!fish @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: faithful SF films Another that comes to mind was "The Last Man on Earth," with Vincent Price. Despite the lurid and misleading title, this was a fairly faithful adaptation of Richard Matheson's "I Am Legend," which was a novel of an Earth taken over by, of all things, a vampire plague. Bob Fishell ihnp4!ihu1g!fish ------------------------------ Date: 1 May 84 13:24:26-PDT (Tue) From: hplabs!hao!kpno!astrovax!ks @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Arthur C. Clarke's 2010 I have just learned heard something absolutely terrible about the upcoming film "2010: Odyssey 2", and I heard it directly from Arthur himself (appearing at GWU SEDS April 30). Arthur says that the writer of the screenplay for his film will be Peter Hyams. Who is he, you say? You're not going to like it. Peter Hyams wrote and directed "Capricorn One", the biggest piece of anti-space filth ever brought to deface the silver screen. And it wasn't a good adventure story either, even if you don't mind the political intonations. Arthur says that he's never met Hyams, but will meet him soon. Evidently MGM assigned him to the project. My expectations for the film have dropped greatly. We are also told that Tony Banks (??) will be writing an original score for the film, i.e. not much old classical music will be used. ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 7 May 1984, 18:29-PDT From: Reynolds at RAND-UNIX Subject: Why release a 35MM film in 70MM? To: upstill at UCB-VAX Date: 30 Apr 84 9:32:58-PDT (Mon) From: upstill @ Ucb-Vax Two reasons: one, ... finer grain/wider format reduces the degradation. Secondly: brighter, sharper projection: the larger the film area, the more light you can jam through the print without toasting it. Thirdly: the width of a scratch on the film is independent of film width. So a scratch on a larger print becomes smaller on the screen due to the fact that less magnification is required in projection. -c ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 84 11:41:22 EDT From: Ed Subject: Re: Re: Spock didn't have to die... I don't think that the sensors couldn't lock onto the Reliant to beam Genesis aboard (V9, #75) is quite the right explanation. Having just seen ST-II on cable last night (for the umpteenth time), the sensors were indeed working, and trained onto the Reliant (for Spock says that he is "picking up an unusual energy wave from the Reliant" - the Genesis Wave). If the sensors were working, it should have been very easy to lock onto Genesis to stop it from detonating. Another possible explanation might be that the energy wave might have been lethal to be around (there were lots of gases coming from Genesis when it was building up), making it somewhat difficult to be in the Transporter Room with it at the same time. -Ed ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 84 20:23:06-PDT (Sun) From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!houti!ariel!vax135!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!aecom!s From: ander @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Spock didnt have to die... > Why couldn't they do that to Genesis?? Beam it aboard, then out > into the nebula, disintegrated?? Did Captain Spock die in vain? Spock died for a very good reason: Nimoy demanded his death as pre-condition to signing his contract to ST II. I remember reading about this about 5 mon. in advance of the film in the Wall Street Journal. They claimed that Nimoy is tired of people calling him 'Spock' all the time.... Jeremy Sanders {spike|rocky2|philabs|pegasus|esquire|cucard} !aecom!{sanders|jsanders|sander} ------------------------------ Date: 12 Apr 84 12:28:00-PST (Thu) From: hplabs!hp-pcd!john @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: The Easy Road to Riches How to get rich through time travel. Well there are several ways to do this. In "the end of eternity" by Asimov you have a society that conducts regular trade using time ways in the same manner as we use roadways. But that is a little more organized than you probably want. I remember reading one story about a scientist who invents a time machine and goes back to the middle ages with a pocketfull of silver coins. He hires a lawyer to manage his investments and through the miracle of compound interest manages to aquire control of most of the worlds wealth. He uses this money to pay for the research needed to construct his time machine. John Eaton !hplabs!hp-pcd!john ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 84 7:43:53-PDT (Wed) From: decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!bmcg!cepu!scw @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: How to Get Rich with a Time Machine >1) I would play off of the idea that, at certain points >throughout History, there have been situations in which a >great many people would gladly have paid a dear sum for >what, to others, may seem mundane and ordinary.[ ... ] >literally thousands of situations in which people would pay >anything for a glass of water? (No, I haven't seen Ice >Pirates yet.) This would work fairly well. >2) My second thought concerns mankind's tendency to make >war. At those times men [...] black marketeering without >affecting his own future. As an example, take Patton near >the end of the European conflict in WWII. His push >northward into Germany was halted due to a lack of fuel. >Since, in an historical sense, the Allies were destined to >win anyway, it may not have made a great deal of difference >who reached Berlin first. Patton would have liked to do it >himself and I'm sure, if offered the fuel from somewhere, >he would have paid enough for it to make it worth one's >while. The problem here is twofold. (1) George Patton was not an extremely wealthy man. and (2) Do you have any idea how much fuel Patton's IIIrd Army used? It took a whole bunch of trucks (1000's) running ~24 hours a day to keep him supplied. Also you'd be substantially changing local (time wise) history. If Patton had reached Berlin first a whole lot of things would be different. (1) Berlin would not have been flattened nearly as throughly as it was (the Soviets deliberately caused as much extra damage as they could). This would have far reaching effects in the attitude of the DDR. (2) Dresden probably would not have been bombed. (3) The Warsaw Ghetto uprising probably would have been successful (the Soviets would not have sat on their asses across the river, and the German Army would have had more of its forces on the western front [80% of the German Army was on the Eastern front]). Stephen C. Woods (VA Wadsworth Med Ctr./UCLA Dept. of Neurology) uucp: { {ihnp4, uiucdcs}!bradley, hao, trwrb, sdcsvax!bmcg}!cepu!scw ARPA: cepu!scw@ucla-locus location: N 34 06'37" W 118 25'43" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 May 1984 18:02 EDT From: TERZOP%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Re: time travel `paradoxes' "If I go back in time and kill my grandfather, will I cease to exist?" This question assumes that time travel is possible. Then, is there any meaning to this phrase "cease to exist" when you have just assumed that you can cut yourself off from the normal framework of time? In what sense can you start or stop existing when the concepts involve the passage of time? In the sense of `the world', you already ceased to exist at the moment you left at the "future" end of your time jump. You also started existing at the "past" end of the jump in a similar fashion. If you want to argue that you will have a `subjective' time in which such a thing can happen, I reply that if you cease to exist, you haven't any subjective time any longer (yes, I realize I'm also using passage-of-time language in an inappropriate context, but time travel does that to grammar). I read an interesting idea on this `paradox': The Overlords of War (or something like that) by G. Klein (I think the G is for Gerard or Gerald or some such name; and the book is a translation). This thesis is that if you try to do such a thing, you set off a `timequake' -- a series of oscillations in time which damp themselves out in some unspecified manner to get rid of the disturbance (usually you!). In what sense you can have oscillations when time is considered a static dimension is left to the reader's imagination. I will try to dig out the book and send a full reference. der Mouse ------------------------------ Date: 3 May 84 18:12:30-PDT (Thu) From: ihnp4!ihuxp!wbpesch @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: How to Get Rich with a Time Machine I think that I might just go back to the method used in I Dream of Jeanie, where she goes to the track with her master with tomorrow's results. STILL waiting for the bolt from the skies, Walt Pesch AT&T Technologies ihnp4!ihuxp!wbpesch ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 84 16:27:27-PDT (Wed) From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!eder @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Our continuing plan to blow up the Earth... 2 May 1984 The center of a planet is likely to contain a high concentration of uranium and thorium. They are heavy and sink to the middle of planets with fluid cores. Now Star Wars was set "A long, long time ago". U-235 has a shorter half-life than U-238, thus the concentration was higher earlier in the life of your average planet. Far enough back, it would have been a fissionable mix. Now, what you do is fire a VERY high power laser at the planet. This bores a hole to the center. Now fire a pulse of neutrons into the core, which causes a small (relatively) detonation from enhanced fission. This blows a hole in the middle of the planet, compressing the remainder of the core. As the density increases, the rest of the material fissions. KABLOOEY! P.s. Hi, Peter. How do I send messages to you directly? Dani Eder Boeing Aerospace ssc-vax!eder ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 10-May SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #80 *** EOOH *** Date: 10 May 84 1332-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #80 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 9 May 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 80 Today's Topics: Books - Calvino & Dewdney & Heinlein (2 msgs) & Leiber & Story Request, Films - 2010 (2 msgs) & Faithful SF Films (2 msgs) & Star Wars, Television - V: The Final Battle (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Thanks & How to Get Rich ( 2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Reply-to: G.CUNYVM=JDALC012@BERKELEY Date: Fri, 04 May 84 19:24 EST From: JDALC012@CUNYVM Subject: I'm the kid on the block. Does anyong know the author Italio Calvino? He's an Italian author who writes some very wierd stuff. I have only found one of his novels, called T-Zero, and was engrossed in it instantly. Samwise aka Sam g.cunyvm=lc012 ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 1984 0918-EDT From: John Redford Subject: review of "The Planiverse" "The Planiverse" by A. K. Dewdney Subtitle: "Computer Contact with a Two-Dimensional World" Here's an odd and intriguing book. It's a thorough exploration of what happens when you take one dimension out of the world. Dewdney has worked out what happens to biology, chemistry, physics, traffic patterns, weather, and even computer design. Remember "Flatland", the Victorian novel about A. Square? Dewdney has taken Abbott's plain piece of cloth and turned it into a Persian carpet. The premise is that a computer science professor has set his students the task of modelling a two-dimensional world as an exercise in software engineering. They build a planet and give it continents, oceans, an atmosphere, and even simple life forms. Some advanced students put in features like a natural language query interface, and a means of simulating some portions of the world in great detail while only approximating the rest. One day as they are watching one of the creatures, it starts giving responses that are not in the program. Its vocabulary and grammar improve beyond what they put in and it develops a complex set of internal organs. Somehow they've come in contact with a real two-dimensional world. The creature's name is Yendred and he lives on the planet Arde. They follow him about his daily life, and tag along when he goes on a religious pilgrimage to the far side of the continent. The computer contact premise is pretty hard to swallow, but it's fine as a dramatic device. There is no way, after all, that three-dimensional and two-dimensional beings could physically interact (in "Flatland" Abbott contacted his creatures in dreams). The computer lets the human characters explore this world, and being able to talk to the creatures in it gives them some local perspective. The fun of the book is in figuring out how the 2D world would work. Grabbing a piece of string, for instance, is difficult because you can't put your hand around it. Houses have to be underground because otherwise passers-by would have to climb over them. When it rains the water cannot soak into the ground because every time a rock comes into contact with another rock it forms a seal that the water cannot penetrate. In our world a line contact is a seal, but in the Planiverse all it takes is a point. He works out the implications for just about everything (my favorite is the 2D clock), apparently with the help of people from all over the country. Dewdney also has a piece in the Computer Recreation column in the May Scientific American. He goes from two dimensions down to one in describing a game he calls "Core Wars". Two organisms (programs) are put into a section of memory. A supervisory program called Mars lets them take alternate turns executing. The goal is to prevent the other program from executing, generally by writing over it. Elaborate strategies for defense and offense can be worked up. It sounds like the man has a real penchant for subworlds. John Redford (vlsi @ dec-marlboro) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 May 1984 18:02 EDT From: TERZOP%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Re: psychic powers in Heinlein??? Those `kids' were hardly mentioned in Time Enough for Love (I can't recall their being mentioned at all!). They were talked about rather a lot in Methusalah's Children though. der Mouse ------------------------------ Date: 6 May 84 16:29:14-PDT (Sun) From: ihnp4!we13!burl!ulysses!gamma!mb2c!uofm-cv!itivax!husak @ From: Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: psychic powers in Heinlein??? As regards psychics in Heinlein, may I recommend "Gulf","Elsewhen" and "Lost Legacy" in the collection "Assignment in Eternity". Also the story "Project Nightmare" collected in "The Menace from Earth." ------------------------------ Date: 3 May 84 21:34:47-PDT (Thu) From: sri-unix!hplabs!hao!seismo!harpo!decvax!decwrl!boyajian@akov68.D From: EC Subject: re: Fritz Leiber -- the Actor?? I'm afraid I have to point out that Leiber did not write "The Darfstellar" --- Walter M. Miller, Jr. did. However, Leiber *has* written some drama-oriented short stories. Also, if you pay attention while reading THE BIG TIME, you might notice that it reads as if it were intended to be a stage play. As to whether Fritz the Writer is Fritz the Actor: others have pointed out that Leiber Sr. is the actor and Leiber Jr. is the writer. This is certainly the case. It should be mentioned, however, that Leiber Jr. *has* done some small amount of acting, though it was not his career as it was his father's. Now, if one *really* paid attention to film credits on old movies, one may someday notice sf writer/fan Wilson (Bob) Tucker's name pop up as a lighting engineer. Forry Ackerman also tends to pop up in cameos in assorted sf/horror movies. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard) UUCP: (decvax!decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian) ARPA: (decwrl!rhea!akov68!boyajian@Shasta) ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 84 10:06:08-PST (Thu) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!ritcv!tropix!aii @ Ucb-Vax Subject: story source ? Yet another "search those memories" request.... 20 years ago (I was 4 years old) I read a short story, title probably "Tatters" in a collection of short stories about cats. The story was about a small cat named Tatters who died it's ninth death, but due to a screw-up was sent to Dog Heaven instead. It all comes out all right in the end. Can anyone tell me the author and source for this story? Many Thanks (just for trying) Alice Bentley ...seismo!rochester!ritcv!tropix!aii ------------------------------ Date: 3 May 84 18:34:16-PDT (Thu) From: harpo!ulysses!mhuxl!abnjh!cbspt005 @ Ucb-Vax Subject: 2010 - Peter Hyams Peter Hyams, the writer, producer and director of the film version of 2010 announced when given the project by MGM/UA that the tone of the film would not be anything like 2001, i.e. ponderous, enigmatic, even stately. Which is a fundamental difference between how the two books read, as well. Don't expect the same sort of film-going experience that 2001 provided. But if they did their homework, and used some well-bridled imagination, it could be a bang-up entertainment! One thing for sure, the special effects are being done by the best in the business, Doug Trumbull's Entertainment Effects Group, under the tutelage of triple Oscar-winner Richard Edlund("Alien", "The Empire Strikes Back", "Return of the Jedi"). The cast of 2010: Roy Scheider, John Lithgow, Bob Balaban, Keir Dullea, Helen Mirren, Douglas Rain, Savely Kramarov, Elya Baskin, Oleg Rudnik, Natasha Shneider, Vladimir Skomarowsky, Victor Steinbach. Eric Carter AT&T-IS S. Plainfield, NJ allegra!abnjh!cbspt005 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 May 84 18:53:42 PDT From: Douglas J. Trainor Subject: Re: Arthur C. Clarke's 2010 [In regards to the unsigned message about 2010...] So you don't like Hyams. Well I don't like people ripping apart directors and actors solely based on one film. The news media suffers greatly from this. So CAPRICORN ONE wasn't up to par, you can't condemn the guy forever. Have you seen one of his more recent films, like OUTLAND? You make it look like Clarke doesn't approve. Clarke & Hyams have been in constant communication (via computer no less) since the beginning. As for the music, Tony Banks (of Genesis) is great. It would be easy for Hyams to pull out some classic, I admire him for doing something new. Why don't you wait and see the film... Douglas James Trainor Video Image Associates, MGM/UA Marina Del Rey, CA ------------------------------ Date: 3 May 84 13:47:10-PDT (Thu) From: sun!qubix!jdb @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: faithful SF films How about The Incredible Shrinking Man? I don't remember Richard Matheson's novel that well, but I think they were pretty close, save that Matheson's title was simply "The Shrinking Man". Perhaps he wanted to make this shrinking as credible as possible :-) Dr Memory ...{decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!decwrl!qubix!jdb ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 84 12:25:12-PST (Fri) From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!pegasus!hocse!dls @ Ucb-Vax Subject: faithful SF films Here is a response from another off-net friend of mine concerning the orginal posting of SF films faithful to the novels. > ecl is a little confused about THINGS TO COME in its various > forms. There is a book called THE SHAPE OF THINGS TO COME by > H. G. Wells. It is non-fiction and is speculation about the > future. Wells then wrote a screenplay for a story set in this > future to be filmed by Alexander Korda. That was the film > THINGS TO COME. The screenplay is also available, so there > really is a book called THINGS TO COME, but it is merely the > screenplay of the film. The film does diverge from the > screenplay occasionally, but in general they are pretty close > as one would expect. The characters and the story of the film > do not appear in the book. There is also a lousy Flash Gordon > imitation that had the gall to call itself H. G. WELLS' THE > SHAPE OF THINGS TO COME, but in spite of a character being > named Cabal, it has nothing to do with the earlier film or any > book by Wells. That film was made in Canada about 1979. > Mark Leeper > hocse!lznv!mrl ------------------------------ Reply-to: G.CUNYVM=JDALC012@BERKELEY Date: Fri, 04 May 84 19:24 EST From: JDALC012@CUNYVM Subject: I'm the kid on the block. I just got on this list and I would like to contribute what I can. I am curious what Star Wars gossip might be flying around as to whether there will be anymore? Will someone other than Lucas pick up the series? Samwise aka Sam g.cunyvm=lc012 ------------------------------ Date: Tue 8 May 84 07:07:16-MDT From: William G. Martin Subject: "V" I just thought that I'd point out that the alien "Visitors" in "V" went to the Imperial Stormtrooper School of Marksmanship. It seems that the more advanced your weaponry, the less likely you are to hit anything with it. (At least in the movies, though I think we can draw a parallel in real life -- contrast the "make every shot count" philosophy and long & detailed marksmanship training of the soldiers who carried Springfields, Mausers, and Enfields in WWI with the "hold it over your head, close your eyes, and spray" technique of the grunts with M-16s so often pictured in VietNam war footage.) Will ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 May 84 13:10:47 EDT From: Will Martin (DRXAL-FD) Subject: Nonsense in "V" A striking and gratuitous continuity goof in "V" -- Much was made, at the end of the second episode of "The Final Chapter", of the girl baby having a forked tongue. Yet, when she is used to save the world at the end of the third episode, close-ups show her licking her lips several times -- her tongue is an ordinary human one at that point. It wouldn't have been hard or expensive to use some sort of rubber prosthesis in those scenes, but they just didn't bother. Humph. By the way, I probably missed this due to flicking between channels so I could also watch the destruction of Pompeii, but was the silly business of the little girl turning all sparkly and reversing the blow-up of the mother ship ever explained in any fashion? I thought she was simply going to know the secret code, punch it in, and turn off the destruct mechanism. Doing it the way they did was SO hokey... The obvious lead-in for a possible sequel, with Diana taking off in the shuttle craft (shades of Darth Vader in his fighter at the end of SW - ANH!) was just too "cute" for words... This story was so full of holes, to criticize it will be like blaming a colander for not holding water! Will ------------------------------ Date: 19 Apr 84 13:38:08-PST (Thu) From: harpo!ulysses!burl!clyde!watmath!utzoo!hcrvax!paulb @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Thanks!!! This net is a veritable wealth of information. Several articles ago I posted a request for Spider Robinson books and a query about "True Names". The response was overwhelming. Aside from the netnews on the subjects, I received about 30 pieces of mail. So, thank you all, I now know exactly where to go and what to buy. Wow! Paul R. Bonneau {utzoo|watmath|decvax}!hcrvax!paulb (new path!) ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 84 12:15:37-PST (Fri) From: hplabs!hao!denelcor!lmc @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: How to get rich with a time machine While not strictly a time travel story, I can remember reading a short about a man who placed $1 in the bank to accumulate interest payable to his descendant in the fiftieth generation. By the time that it became payable, it represented all the assets in Earth, Venus, and Mars. The 49th generation person died without issue, and so the world goal of Communism (which was by this time long quashed) became reality when the government took default. Was it in Mathematical Magpie, maybe??? Hmmmm.... Lyle McElhaney (hao,brl-bmd,nbires,csu-cs,scgvaxd)!denelcor!lmc ------------------------------ Date: 1 May 84 13:24:17-PDT (Tue) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!rocksvax!sunybcs!gloria!colonel @ From: Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: $1 in the bank [Penalty for early withdrawal] The story about the man who willed $1 to his fiftieth-generation heir was in Fadiman's earlier anthology, _Fantasia Mathematica_. I wonder what economists would think of that story. Col. G. L. Sicherman ...seismo!rochester!rocksvax!sunybcs!gloria!colonel ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 10-May SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #81 *** EOOH *** Date: 10 May 84 1402-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #81 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 10 May 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 81 Today's Topics: Books - Comstock & Leiber (2 msgs) & MacAvoy & Tevis & Analog & Libertarian SF & Author's Names & Hugo/Nebula Request, Films - Faithful SF Films (# msgs) & 2001 & Roll-your-own SF Films ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 3 May 84 13:31:00-PDT (Thu) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!ctvax!uokvax!erlsmith @ Ucb-Vax Subject: hardcore sci-fi??? - (nf) (buy him books, send him to college and all he does is play on the damn computer) recently while looking for a new book to read at b. daltons i came across what appeared to be a good looking (notice i said looking) science fiction book. well being an avid fan of a little sex with my sci-fi, i decided that the sultry looking cover might just make this book interesting... well, i got into reading the book, "these lawless worlds" by jarrod comstock, and i think i got a little science fiction with the sex. were talking some hardcore porn here... now mind you i don't mind a little sex when reading, i mean i love heinlein books (read every book he's written so far), but this was a little to hardcore for my particular tastes. the book's story is kind of as follows: on the technological planet of magadis, there are four classes 1) the tech's 2) the robots 3) the non-techs and 4) women. ( a little sexist here ) the story begins on a satellite of the planet, which watches everything that happens on the planet. then a new worker comes to the satellite and finds there are two modified robots there (both physically and mentally), that are programmed to receive the "gift" from humans. well the boys on the satellite give the gift to these two robots quite often and finally one of the robots cracks and kills them all. enter our hero, aleria farrell and her faithful sidekick jemall. a little background here, aleria farrell is a judge for the confederation of planets and jemall is her baliff. well the planet of magadis, wanting an impartial judge calls for one from the confederation, not knowing they would be receiving a woman judge. from there we go into approx 110 pages of sex and then get back to the storyline. not bad for a 231 page book. it made interesting reading but definitely not for the kids. - eric l. smith !ctvax!uokvax!erlsmith ------------------------------ Date: 1 May 84 7:58:00-PDT (Tue) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!ctvax!uokvax!emjej @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Fritz Leiber -- Actor? - (nf) The question is (as all can see by now), was this THE Fritz Leiber or not? Did the author of the Fafrhd and the Grey Mouser series begin as a Hollywood character actor? Surely there must have been only one Fritz Leiber, or was there another? I second the question, in reference to a truly horrid movie called *Equinox* (watch for the fellow who played Herb Tarlek on *WKRP*, among others who are just as convincing as teenagers as Robert Vaughn was in *Teenage Caveman*). I'd like to think that the gentleman who writes such classic SF, fantasy, and science essays wouldn't have touched this turkey... James Jones ------------------------------ Date: 6 May 84 23:38:26-PDT (Sun) From: hplabs!ames-lm!barry @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Fritz Leiber -- Actor? - (nf) Re Fritz Leiber and "Equinox": I'm sorry to be the one to have to tell you but, yes, it was Fritz "Fafhrd" Leiber, the SF writer, in the movie (ref. John Stanley's "Creature Feature Movie Guide"). Not only that, but Jim Danforth worked on the special (?) effects. The only comfort I can offer is that Leiber had nothing to do with the script. I have a confession to make: I *liked* "Equinox". I was deeply into Carl Jung at the time I saw it, and was able to read all kinds of archetypal symbolism in between the lines, pure and unsullied by reality, just like a fairy tale. Those who were with me looked at me *very* strangely when I told them about this. Haven't seen the pic since it opened; wonder what I'd think of it now? Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA Electric Avenue: {dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames-lm!barry ------------------------------ Date: 4 May 84 15:07:27-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!rocksvax!sunybcs!ehrlich @ Ucb-Vax Subject: RE:RE:TEA rebuttal (Damiano) Are you missing something as good as TWTBD (by discarding Damiano)? Depends on why you liked the black dragon. The two books of the Damiano series out so far (there will be three) are different in many ways from TWTBD. Personally, I enjoyed them just as much, and am looking forward (if not with baited breath) to the third. I think it helps to be a history buff. This is pretty good historical fantasy, not mainstream sf (but then, neither was Macavoy's 1st book). Strikes me as a pleasing story with a blend of action--much of it magical, and dream. The period (~petrarchan) is not my specialty but the setting has a ring of authenticity. More, the fantasy itself seems appropriate to the time. The magical beings and happenings are not so much what one finds in current "medieval" fantasy, but seem closer to such things a fantasist of the time might have written. For all that, the prose is not stilted or pseudo-archaic, and though the fantasy and the characters are of largely Christian flavour, by the end of book 2 there is a distinct touch of ecumenism which may be closer to the 20th century author's mind set than that of the period. There's also more than a little wit/humour. The plot: Young man who has lived somewhat sheltered life is forced by circumstance to set forth on journey wherein he discovers the world and self. Nothing new as basic plots go, but there've been some fine things done with it over the years. Damiano may not be the finest ever, but I found it an enjoyable read... not a break- neck pace, but far from boring. If you liked TWTBD because there was mention of computers and/or Zen, you won't find them in the Damiano books. The characters are also rather different. Still, if you threw down the book after a few pages, you might find it worthwhile to pick it up again. (Kept me up until 3AM, but...) Karen Ehrlich ------------------------------ Date: 3 May 84 22:45:38-PDT (Thu) From: harpo!ulysses!gamma!pyuxww!pyuxhh!kurt @ Ucb-Vax Subject: a book you must read You must read: the steps of the sun by walter tevis It is one of the best books I have read in a year. It is a fine work of science fiction. If you dont read it your missing a lost night of sleep. I couldnt put it down. also read tea with black dragon , it is only related as it is the last book I have read and not slept for. Kurt Gluck SPL 1c273a Bell Communications Research Inc 6 Corporate Place Piscataway NJ, 08854 ihnp4!pyuxhh!kurt (201)-561-7100 x2023 ------------------------------ Date: 1 May 84 8:09:00-PDT (Tue) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!parsec!ctvax!uokvax!emjej @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: True Names - (nf) Another of his *Analog* shorts, sometime in 1972 I think, concerned a sentient colonizing ship with some flavor of humans (I forget whether they were full-grown and in suspended animation or just gametes) aboard. I don't recall the title. James Jones ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 84 08:32 PDT From: Tom Perrine Subject: Libertarian SF Does anyone have a list (or an interest in) SF with a Libertarian theme? I am speaking of such books as : "Alongside Night" - J. Neil Schulman "An Enemy of the State" - F. Paul Wilson "The Probability Broach" (and its sequels) - L. Neil Smith Does anyone know any other books by these authors? By the way, I heartily recommend all of these books, especially "Alongside Night". Tom Perrine {tom@LOGICON.ARPA} ------------------------------ Date: Wed 9 May 84 09:48:57-PDT From: CAIN@SRI-AI.ARPA Subject: Author's names There has been some discussion about authors who write under a pseudonym or their initials and prefer to keep their "real" names off the record. Naturally, the reasons for this are as varied as the authors themselves, but I can name one reason I have heard voiced by more than one which I consider valid. If I were to write under the name J. H. Smith, people meeting me for the first time might be introduced to me as Mr. Smith, or as John Smith. It would then be my privilege to say "my friends call me John". However, if I wrote as John H. Smith, perfect strangers would feel justified in calling me "John" without a formal introduction. For those who prefer formal introductions or that such familiarity be mutual (i.e. anyone calling me by my first name had better give me his/her first name in the same sentence), then I can see the reason for keeping their "real" name out of print. And whatever the reason, the name appearing on the cover is the author's preference. To circumvent that is to deny the author the privilege of choice and of privacy. The fact that the SF-LOVERS BBOARD has seen messages calling authors "grumpy" or "touchy" or "secretive" when their first names are discovered merely demonstrates that very problem. It is an age-old problem; some readers can be insensitive to an author's wishes. Admittedly, the point is a trivial one, but as one who values privacy highly, I can at least sympathize. Ron Cain cain@sri-ai ------------------------------ Date: 6 May 84 21:42:53-PDT (Sun) From: decvax!dartvax!markv @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Hugo/Nebula request I have kind of lost track of the Hugo and Nebula awards recently. The most currrent list I have has entries only up to about 1977. Can anyone who has a current list (or simply knows them offhand) post a article with the Hugo and/or Nebula winners for the last five or so years in the novel, novelette, and short stories categories? Mark Vita Dartmouth College {decvax,cornell,linus}!dartvax!markv ------------------------------ Date: 3 May 84 11:06:00-PDT (Thu) From: ihnp4!ihuxb!alle @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: faithful SF films > Another that comes to mind was "The Last Man on Earth," with > Vincent Price. Despite the lurid and misleading title, this was > a fairly faithful adaptation of Richard Matheson's "I Am Legend," > which was a novel of an Earth taken over by, of all things, a > vampire plague. This movie was remade with Charleton Heston playing the main character. It was called "The Omega Man." --> Allen <-- ihnp4!ihuxb!alle ------------------------------ Date: 3 May 84 14:07:36-PDT (Thu) From: harpo!ulysses!burl!clyde!watmath!utzoo!dciem!ntt @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: faithful SF films (...Things to Come) Just one further note of confusion about `Things to Come' vs. `The Shape of Things to Come': The movie known here by the first title was also released in Britain by the second one. Mark Brader ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 May 84 11:57:41 EDT From: Daniel Dern Subject: faithful films The recent (last year) animation of Peter S. Beagle's THE LAST UNICORN. The movie had a number of problems, but I found it faithful to the spirit of the book -- something which all too few screen adaptations can claim. Ditto, to a lesser extent, the animation of THE PHANTOM TOLLBOOTH. Daniel Dern ------------------------------ Date: 6 May 84 18:08:52-PDT (Sun) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!knight @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: why not iapetus? > there was a very specific reason why bowman & poole & hal & co. > went to jupiter and not iapetus in 2001. doug trumbull did up a > saturn for kubrick and kubrick didn't like it--wasn't colorful > enough for him. so trumbull made up a jupiter, turned up thehue > and intensity a little, and kubrick decided jupiter was better. i > always resented the guy for that. the switch greatly damaged the > credibility of the movie as sf, and all for the sake of bands on a > plaster planet. urrkh. > this from a book by jerome agel (i think; it's been years) called > the making of 2001 or something like that. Did we read the same book? As I recall, the problem was that they simply could not come up with a believable way of representing the rings, and it was a collective decision (on both Kubrick's and Trumbull's parts) to switch to a planet that was easier to produce *believably* on film (i.e., better a good Jupiter than a poor Saturn). I have a difficult time believing that someone like Kubrick, who approached making "2001" with as much integrity as he did, would turn fickle over whether he liked the colours or not. "If you lived here, you'd be home by now." Steve Knight {seismo,allegra,some other sites}!rlgvax!knight ------------------------------ Date: 4 May 84 15:53:26-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!hao!ames-lm!barry @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Roll-your-own SF Films The years since "Star Wars" have been fat ones for SF film lovers. Lots of good things to see (especially if you're not *too* choosy[:-)]). But have you noticed how few of "our" favorite SF books get made into movies? Lots of original screenplays, but rarely a "Dune". If you're like me, you have some pet candidates for SF books you'd like to see on that silver screen, stuff you know would knock 'em dead at the BO (that's showbiz talk for box office)... well, here's your chance to tell the world what it's missing; what SF book/story would you like to see become the next big-budget, brilliantly directed-and-acted film extravaganza? Why? Who would you cast for what? Who should direct? Rather than simply sitting back and waiting for the inevitable and overwhelming popular response to this fascinating question, I'll go ahead and kick this off myself. I nominate "The Stars My Destination", by Alfred Bester. It has all the action and visual splendor any "Star Wars" fan could ask for, and a proven plot (it's a pretty direct lift from "The Count of Monte Cristo"). The pace is headlong, yet the story has more levels than just the up-front action. Opportunities for spectacular SFX are many: the Burning Man, flashing from place to place; the New Year's Day atomic attack on New York City, seen through the eyes of Lady Olivia, who is blind except in the infrared region; the guests at Presteign's party arriving in every form of conveyance known to man. And the costumes! Period clothes from every period, side by side. Architecture huge and Baroque. The desolation of space. And a man with the face of a tiger. Steve Spielberg should direct, I think. Casting I'm less certain of; probably Margaret Avery ('Heather LaLache' in "The Lathe of Heaven") as Robin Wednesbury, possibly Robert DeNiro as Gully Foyle. OK, your turn, netland! You, too, can be a producer! Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA Electric Avenue: {dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames-lm!barry ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 11-May SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #82 *** EOOH *** Date: 11 May 84 1302-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #82 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 11 May 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 82 Today's Topics: Books - Goldman & Kurland & Kurtz & Leiber (2 msgs) & Moorcock & Sf or Fantasy (2 msgs), Films - Indiana Jones & 2010 (2 msgs) & Roll-your-own SF Films & Star Trek, Television - V: The Final battle (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 4 May 84 16:30:11-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!rocksvax!sunybcs!gloria!colonel @ From: Ucb-Vax Subject: The Princess Bride (SPOILER) [Prepare to die!] A rather obvious tipoff was the names of the two realms: "Florin" and "Guilder." Synonyms - check your dictionary (NOT the gazetteer section). Col. G. L. Sicherman ...seismo!rochester!rocksvax!sunybcs!gloria!colonel ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 May 84 10:08 EST From: Steven Gutfreund Subject: Michael Kurland Does anyone know of other novels/shorts written by Michael Kurland. I enjoyed Pluribus very much, and wanted more. ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 1984 10:01 EDT (Wed) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" Subject: The Deryni Isn't the new Deryni book supposed to be out around now? Anyone heard anything about it? ------------------------------ Date: 4 May 84 20:03:00-PDT (Fri) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uiuccsb!heuring @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Fritz Leiber -- Actor? - (nf) The Darfsteller Was NOT written by Leiber! It was written by Walter M. Miller Jr. and can be found in the book The Best of Walter M. Miller, Jr. ------------------------------ Date: 4 May 84 6:25:00-PDT (Fri) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Fritz Leiber -- Actor? - (nf) It's very likely THE Fritz Leiber. His parents were Shakespearian actors, and he spent several years on the stage and in films himself. I think this was when he was in his 20's and before he started writing. Fantasy Newsletter/Review/ has been carrying autobiographical articles from Leiber for several issues now -- a good series, may even come out as a book eventually. Wombat ihnp4!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 May 84 16:06 EST From: JDALC012@CUNYVM Subject: Elric of Melnibone, and Holographic Universes. In a recent conversation with a friend, he showed me where you might find the metaphysical assumption(s) that Micheal Moorcock used in creating the Elric series. ...And universe and individual are linked, the one mirrored in the other, and each contains the others. -The chronicle of the Black Sword This quote can be found in the beginning of the fourth part of the last of the series, Stormbringer. I found my friend's comment interesting and wondered what the implications of a holographic universe might be. Could I walk across shadow to Amber and find I could travel anywhere ??? -Sam g.cunyvm=jdalc012 ------------------------------ Date: 4 May 84 8:52:44-PDT (Fri) From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!houti!ariel!vax135!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!hhb!rob From: @ Ucb-Vax Subject: "What is SF" What is SF? The answer to that question has eluded many a 'Literature of Science Fiction' class. You're on shaky ground when you try to make objective demarcation in the land of Art. Good fiction of any genre is able to achieve what is known as the 'suspension of disbelief' - where the author knows the reader is aware he is reading fabrication, and yet, wishing the reader to nevertheless be able to identify with character and action, tries to make the fabrication more real by supplying rationalizations and plausible explanations for the fictional elements. Readers of SCIENCE fiction are supposed to be of a more demanding nature when it comes to the plausibility of fictional elements in a story. Many of them possess a greater familiarity with the workings of REAL world 'elements' as diverse as machines, political systems, economic policies, etc, than the average reader. SCIENCE fiction is therefore characterized by a stronger attempt on the author's part to supply background and incidental factual information to support the conjectures in his story, and to remain consistent within the logic of the reality he creates. Poor science fiction, failing to 'involve' the reader, can evoke as much distaste in its audience as a bad romance or western or mystery novel can in their audiences. It is a matter of satisfying the reader - of gently hoodwinking him, like a good magician, and not being perceived as merely a charlatan. No one wishes to be taken for a fool in the area of his interests, and what he reads reflects his interests. In general, science fiction stories deal with a reality which, in at least one major respect, differs from 'our' reality enough to require some skill on the author's part in finessing the 'lie' past the reader. All other genres have characters, settings, props, motives, conflicts, and resolutions that while perhaps improbable in our reality, are at least not impossible. The fantasy stories, and other stories which explore things other than just the ramification of gadgets, which have been included in the genre, now no longer science fiction but 'speculative fiction' for this reason, tend to be self-consistent and believable as well (at least the good ones), more so than other works of literature which make no attempt to cater to an especially critical and educated readership. The good fantasy is almost poetic, and engages in flights of fancy at least as dramatic as one at light speed to a distant star. Lest people who read sf feel too buttered-up, however, let me repeat the views of a Lit-of-SF teacher (and I use the term loosely) I had once. He felt that all sf stories had themes which appealed solely to our more child-like desires - to defeat an (often evil) authority figure (dad, perhaps?), to romance a beautiful and willing princess, defeating all opposition (but is this a desire of only children?), to be recognized by some benevolent power as having hidden talents, and various others. Looking back on the stories I liked, I have to admit that many of them conformed to that scheme. Many, however, did not, and I think that the genre as a whole has matured considerably. Complaints by the snooty about lack of characterization and shallow motivations are not as justifiable as they once were. But back to my original (although never clearly expressed) point: I think it is a waste to go drawing borders in the land of Art. Do we each need justify our own private Dewey Decimal System? Just walk into a bookstore (or a movie theater, or a playhouse or concert hall) and pay attention to what you like. I'll let others be content to while away their daydreams on a desert isle, or out on the range, or in foggy London. I enjoy trips to more exotic destinations, in more eccentric company, on more grand quests. But I also want to know how I'll get there, and if I can breathe the air. (I can't help it.) rob {decvax,inhp4,allegra}!philabs!hhb!rob ------------------------------ Date: 3 May 84 12:54:25-PDT (Thu) From: harpo!ulysses!burl!clyde!watmath!utzoo!kcarroll @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Sf or fantasy -- who cares?? I beg your pardon, but it's not true that "until fantasy recently became a marketable product, people tended to lump SF and fantasy together into one category." SF was what John Campbell printed in Astounding, while fantasy was what he published in Unknown. Seriously, picky people have been trying to distinguish between SF and fantasy for quite a few years now, at least since the 1940's. By the '60's, the state of the controversy was that (a) an easy-going subset of sf fandom, including Judith Merrill, had decided that "sf" meant "speculative fabulation", or whatever; (b) another subset had decided that "even if I can't define it, I >know< what sf is, and it ain't fantasy!" As for myself, I don't really care; I'm willing to accept Campbell's definitions, although I can't really decide where "The Incompleat Enchanter" et seq lies. A common attitude seems to be "I like science fiction, and I like this book; therefore, this book is science fiction"; or, "...and I don't like this book, so it isn't science fiction." The arguments on the net so far seem to have a distinct flavor of this attitude. -Kieran A. Carroll ...decvax!utzoo!kcarroll ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 84 9:29:08-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!nsc!chuqui @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Indy Jones and the Temple of Doom A local radio station talked to a person who saw Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom Saturday morning at the Lucasfilm employees preview. He worked for Lucasfilm, so his comments might be prejudiced, but he said that he loved it and that, believe it or not, it made Raiders of the Lost Ark look slow. Anyone got a spare pacemaker to lend? (Looking eagerly forward to opening day....) >From the closet of anxieties of: Chuq Von Rospach {amd70,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4}!nsc!chuqui (408) 733-2600 x242 Half asleep I hear a voice; is it only in my mind? Or is it someone calling me, someone I failed and left behind? ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 84 13:31:31-PDT (Sat) From: hplabs!ames-lm!barry @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: 2010 - Peter Hyams A trivia question for the net - I note in the previous message that Douglas Rain will be in the cast of "2010"; well, he was also in "2001". Anybody know what part he played? I'll post the correct answer in a few days if needed. Regards, Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA Electric Avenue: {dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames-lm!barry ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 84 12:46:41 EDT From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA Subject: 2010: Odyssey Two Peter Hymans is writing AND directing 2010. He is also (yes) the director of Capricorn One--and--The Star Chamber and Outland... Special Effects are being handled by the Doug Trumbull group... Music is being done by Tony Banks, of the rock group Genesis. It will most likely be a totally "synthetic" score, instead of the recent trend in 64- piece orchestras... Re--a recent message on why in 2001 the Discovery went to Jupiter and not Saturn. The author of that message was partially correct. In Jerome Agel's Making of 2001 (Signet Books), it is stated that the main difficulty was the RINGS of Saturn, not the coloration of the planet. After all (as it is stated in the book), the two planets look fairly alike...gas giants with lost of bands of clouds. The problem was finding a way of depicting the rings so that they did not look *fake*. It should be noted that Trumbull was eventually able to solve this problem, and sent a ship to Saturn in the movie Silent Running... Respectfully submitted, Frederick Paul Kiesche III ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 84 13:13:19-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!grw @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Roll-your-own SF Films [not quite S-F but...] If there is one series I would like to see translated to celluloid, it is Zelazny's Amber series. It would have to be directed by someone who has a good feeling for motivation & character, AND a good sense of epic fantasy (no easy task). Art direction would need to be given to someone with a GREAT imagination! [unfortunately, it'll never happen. After what Hollywood did to Damnation Alley, Zelazny will never sell movie rights again]. This could even be a made-for-TV-epic... As for the cast, that takes some thought...it's been a while since I read the books, so I don't remember the minor characters too well. ...but here goes... Corwin . . . Mel Gibson Random . . . Sting Oberon . . . Marlon Brando (if you could get him) or Sean Connery? Eric . . . . Malcolm McDowell Dworkin . . Burgess Merideth -Glenn ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 May 84 19:24 EST From: JDALC012@CUNYVM Subject: I'm the kid on the block. I saw some stuff about the next Star Trek movie flying around last time. The only things I have heard about it is that you might see them pulling a 'lucas' and bringing spock back in a 'obi-wan' sort of way. Samwise aka Sam g.cunyvm=lc012 ------------------------------ Date: 6 May 84 22:24:10-PDT (Sun) From: decvax!watmath!bstempleton @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Invasion of the Space Nazis, the final battle We all know the problems with V, but what bothers me so much is that the rest of it is not bad, and approaches high quality in places. I'm talking about things like the effects, editing, production values and that sort of thing. Even the writing is a good suspense story. No doubt done by highly trained, qualified cinematic technicians. What I don't get is why they never asked their engineers any questions about the plot. With all the money they spent, they could have easily hired one educated consultant. Anybody with any knowledge of science would say that the idea of aliens coming here to steal our water and eat us is really silly. Water the most precious substance around? Give me a break! People with biotechnology like that needing to steel our bodies for food, especially when they have to feed us? Come on. And lizards? Sure. (This one is the worst. I am fully prepared to believe human looking aliens with common ancesters to ours, but lizards in perfectly molded body suits? The point is that all these things have no reason behind them. It would make a far more intersting fascism story (which is the producers avowed intention) if they were our cousins. I am ready to go for imperialist aliens out to enslave us, but take our water and eat us? If they changed these things, V would be a fairly decent SF story, in fact one of the best ever made for television. And all they had to do was ask somebody. How can so much money be spent and nobody be asked? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 May 84 14:14:42 PDT From: Scott Turner Subject: V the Final Battle Have to agree with Will that the ending was too Deus Ex Machina. Some other goofs: In one scene, Tyler introduces the new explosive the rebels will be using to destroy the pumping station, and cautions that it is not stable below sixty degrees or over seventy-two (F). In the next scene, the male leader of the rebels (I forget his name) is shown tucking the explosive into his vest pocket -- KaBlooey! If the aliens and humans are close enough to each other physiologically to interbreed (pretty hokey in itself) then a toxin that kills one and not the other is pretty hard to accept. But the biggest surprise this week was Wendy killing herself on St. Elsewhere, but of course I won't mention that because it isn't SF. -- Scott ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 11-May SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #83 *** EOOH *** Date: 11 May 84 1341-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #83 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 12 May 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 83 Today's Topics: Books - Stasheff & Sf and Sex & Hugo Awards, Films - 2010 (2 msgs) & Roll-your-own SF Film (2 msgs), Television - V: The Final Battle, Miscellaneous - Art vs Literature ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 May 84 20:17:39-PDT (Mon) From: ihnp4!ihuxj!gek @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Book Request The books by Chris Stasheff are good enough I thought I'd reply to the net. Stasheff wrote The Warlock In Spite of Himself for a contest; he missed the contest deadline, so he published it instead. There is now a prequel, Escape Velocity, dealing with the Romantic Emigres. It's cute. The Warlock Unlocked is great, all the charm of tWiSoH but with all the rough edges smoothed. Between the two is King Kobold, which is a bomb. Even Stasheff admits it, 'cause when it came up for re-release he insisted on a rewrite. I'm glad he did. I read King Kobold Revived yesterday, and it's now better than EV, not as good as tWU. Her Majesty's Warlock, or some such title, is mentioned in the inside cover of tWU, but I haven't seen it in the shops. I wish I did; it promises to be a winner. There IS one other story, A Wizard In Bedlam. It is set once Magnus is grown, and not on Gramarye. It's good, but I'd rank it below EV. So if you ignore KK in favor of KKR, everything by Stasheff rates at least good. glenn kapetansky "If I only had a brain" ...ihnp4!ihu1j!gek ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 1984 17:40-EDT From: Dan Hoey Subject: Blue Sky Fie LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20 remarks that YOLANDA: THE GIRL FROM EROSPHERE is more pornography than SF. As a devotee of both genres, I have to agree. You have to expect sex if you pick up something published by Grove Press--they made their start publishing Ulysses or Lady Chatterly or something back when they were obscene. Unfortunately, there's a lot of skiffy porn these days, probably because there's a lot of skiffy and porn in pop culture. But in the tradition of Kilgore Trout, the Vonnegut character who published masterpieces of SF in nudie mags, there are a few fairly decent examples SF and pornography being emulsified with humor. Unfortunately, you have to go to the used book shelves (in either of two sorts of shops) or hit the hucksters' tables at a con for the ones I know of, as they are all out of print. My favorite example is Ray Kainen, who wrote for the Olympia Press (another of ``those'' publishers, sadly now defunct). His novel THE COSMIC GASH follows Professor F. Rancid Gelding in his Raunchy Stabber as drives down the Screw-way, where all motive power is derived from sexual energy. There is a cast of zillions, all hilarious stereotypes: Rancid's wife Palomine and her horse Herman, secretary Wee Kling, biker Hott Cock, dancer Shenta Vidus, guru Shilly Brahmin, financier J. Burnup Gettit and his wife Gotta, valet Trudgen, Senator Homo Humnuts, author Norman Pitter-patter, psychiatrist Sickman Fried and his patient Amanda Punchingjelly, and the title character, a giant concave alien. Kainen's A SEA OF THIGHS is a similar piece, set on a university campus where a stereotypic cast of zillions comes together as the sex researchers Roseystern and Gildedk*ntz have an ``incident'' with their nuclear-powered experimental apparatus. The only other example of Kainen's work I have been able to find is SATYR TREK. This differs in that the c. of z. do not get together for one huge orgy, but interact with the protagonist serially as he gets tossed across time and space, sort of like a priapic Billy Pilgrim. I would have to rate this as the best SF of the lot, though it's a little too much of a cliff-hanger for my taste in pornography. I suppose I should also mention THE SEX MAGICIANS, by Robert Anton Wilson (co-author of the ILLUMINATUS trilogy). A Mama Vibe, sort of an orgone inversion, blankets Chicago and everyone goes crazy until the Illuminati intervene. A lot of the stereotype play like Kainen, though the humor is a little less wacky. Dan Hoey ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 84 10:52 EST From: YBMCU@CUNYVM Subject: Hugo Awards Seeing Donn Seeley's comments about TWtBD is up for a Hugo award in V9 #76 reminds me that all too often, people forget the rules for Hugo awards. He wants to know why it is up for "science fiction awards". According to the World Science Fiction Society Constitution (Article II, Section 2 - Science Fiction Achievement Awards, Best Novel): "A science fiction or fantasy story of forty thousand (40,000) words or more appearing for the first time in the previous calendar year..." If a story is either science fiction or fantasy, it is eligible - it need not be science fiction. My personal feeling is that this makes things much easier than getting into arguments over whether something is science fiction or is fantasy. (This was not to either recommend or not recommend TWtBD for a Hugo - merely an attempt to clear up what the rules say.) Ben Yalow BITNET: YBMCU@CUNYVM ARPA: G.CUNYVM=YBMCU@BERKELEY ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 10 May 1984, 15:50-PDT From: Michael Wahrman Reply-to: mike at RAND-UNIX Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #80 Date: 3 May 84 18:34:16-PDT (Thu) From: harpo!ulysses!mhuxl!abnjh!cbspt005 @ Ucb-Vax Subject: 2010 - Peter Hyams One thing for sure, the special effects are being done by the best in the business, Doug Trumbull's Entertainment Effects Group, under the tutelage of triple Oscar-winner Richard Edlund("Alien", "The Empire Strikes Back", "Return of the Jedi"). NO NO NO. Richard Edlund isnt working for Doug Trumbull. Trumbull has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with this film. Edlund has set up his company called Boss Film Group in the same warehouse where Trumbull and EEG used to work but that is the only connection. There is some overlap in the people who used to work for EEG and are now working for Boss Films. I know of at least one, Virgil Morano, who was stills photographer on Bladerunner for EEG and is now working on 2010. Boss Films is also doing the effects for Ghostbusters. Four former EEG (Trumbull) employees did set up their own graphics effects company and are doing the knob graphics (ie computer displays on spaceships) for 2010. Their company is called Video Image Associates. Date: Tue, 8 May 84 18:53:42 PDT From: Douglas J. Trainor Subject: Re: Arthur C. Clarke's 2010 [In regards to the unsigned message about 2010...] So you don't like Hyams. Well I don't like people ripping apart directors and actors solely based on one film. The news media suffers greatly from this. So CAPRICORN ONE wasn't up to par, you can't condemn the guy forever. Have you seen one of his more recent films, like OUTLAND? You make it look like Clarke doesn't approve. Clarke & Hyams have been in constant communication (via computer no less) since the beginning. Right on. Everyone in the film business (known in the trade as "the biz") has worked on films that dont turn out so well. Give the guy a break. Michael Wahrman (mike@rand-unix, harpo!randvax!mike, ucbvax!randvax!mike) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 May 84 18:00:23 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: Hyams and 2010 Hyams is not only writing the screenplay for 2010, he's also directing it. On past evidence, he's not anything special as a director, though he is at least competent. His past films include "Capricorn One", "Outland", and "The Star Chamber". His favorite theme seems to be paranoia about what high level government officials are up to. It would be reasonable to assume that he'll bend 2010 in that direction. Once one counts 2010, he will probably be the most prolific director of science fiction films still working (well, big budget Hollywood ones, at least), leaping ahead of Kubrick, Speilberg, and Nicholas Meyer. (Meyer would still be tied, if you consider "The Day After" as both a film and science fiction; a lot of folks hope that at least the latter is true. Speilberg is also tied if you count "Raiders", which is really fantasy.) He will almost certainly not be considered the best. I don't see any reason why Hyams shouldn't be dumped on for "Capricorn One". It's not as if he turned around and made a really great science fiction film. "Outland" isn't really anything special, except for some of the effects. "The Star Chamber", for those who missed it and weren't listening in high school world history classes, is not science fiction. It's probably the best of his films, but it isn't anything special, either. The fact of the matter is that Hyams hasn't shown Kubrick's kind of talent, and it isn't reasonable to expect 2010 to bring it out in him. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 May 84 19:04 EST From: JDALC012@CUNYVM Subject: SF films of the future. I cast my vote for The Cronichles of Amber. With much animation, graphics, and scene changes I think it could make one of the most visually stimulating SF films. For the various roles I would think Shakespearian actors, perhaps of the relatively unknown type, would be best. With all the under-currents and family rivalries it would make for a movie(s) with not just effect but depth too. Second in line would be the Elric series, for some similar reasons. I could go on forever, but time will not permit. Samwise. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 May 84 17:13:12 PDT From: Willard Korfhage Subject: Roll-your-own SF Film I (and some other people I know) would like to see Walter Miller's "A Canticle for Lebowitz". I don't know who I would ask to direct or who I would cast (I never remember everybody's name), but encompassing as it does the rebirth and destruction of civilization, it could be quite a film (more than mind candy). Willard Korfhage korfhage@ucla-ats ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 84 13:52:28-PDT (Tue) From: hplabs!ames-lm!barry @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Invasion of the Space Nazis, the final battle "V" is a very sore subject with me. I looked forward to the showing of the first "V" TV-movie, even though it was a network production. Not expecting much, but hoping. The very first episode was excellent. The secret of the aliens and their nasty intent was not yet revealed, and I was hooked. And then I saw the second half (of the first "V", remember - we're not talking about the new one here). Friends, if someone had asked me to make up the stupidest, most impossible 'explanation' for the mysteries, I could not have topped the sheer incredible idiocy of what they came up with. I was (am) more than disappointed, I was (am) genuinely angry about "V", and have avoided the sequel in righteous indignation. I, too, have wondered how such stupefying nonsense makes it to the air waves. It's hard to believe that anyone could be so completely ignorant of the laws of nature, but we're talking TV producers here, and they are a breed apart, thank God. Not only do many of them think that 'physics' is what you take for constipation, they also frequently have complete contempt for science fiction, and for the audience which science fiction attracts. Frankly, when I see the high ratings which "V" enjoyed, I start wondering if they're right. By the way, I think there is more wrong with "V" than the science, or the illogical plot. When I saw our heroes starting out to organize the resistance movement, I nearly fell out of my chair from laughter. Even a poorly-run tyranny would have had those comic-opera revolutionaries up against the wall in a week. Yes the production values were good. Big deal. Even "The Starlost" (remember *that* turkey?) had some nice mattes and models. I'd still rather watch a John Davidson telethon than see any more of "V". Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA Electric Avenue: {dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames-lm!barry ------------------------------ From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Date: 8 May 84 13:44:47 EDT Subject: Bridge over troubled writers Hmmmmmmmmmmm... Anytime I see the words *art* and *literature* on the same line, with the ASCII reverence marks around them, I start counting the family silverware. About a hundred years ago, physics got sufficiently complicated so that nonspecialists had a hard time following it. Human culture split in two at that point. Science took one fork; *art* and *literature* took another. Read C.P. Snow for the full story; Two Cultures may well be the most important work of this century. While grubbing for my B.A. in English, I was forced to wade through volumes of otherwise sensible men wailing over the death of God, over the lack of meaning in the universe, and lord only knows what else. When my instructor earnestly stated that the central question confronting modern man is "Why not commit suicide?" (this after two volumes of Camus) I suggested, "Some of us are interested in what tomorrow's going to look like." It all came clear to me then: Twentieth century literature doesn't believe in tomorrow. Apart from the nuclear threat (which wasn't there when Camus and his buddies were busy despairing) they just don't feel like considering the possibility that tomorrow might in fact be better. The reason for that is that they KNOW, on some subconscious level, that they don't have the experience to understand the forces that have begun shaping tomorrow. Mainstream literature has hit a dead end. The people who write it can no longer, um, grok the wholeness of human experience because they failed Physics for Poets and think math is for nerds. *Art* and *literature*, which for thousands of years were accurate reflections of human culture, are no longer complete. Science never was complete, but it never claimed to be. Snow didn't have any answers, and his biases leaned toward letting scientists set the pace for the advancement of human culture. That, I'll tell you, won't work either. As science fiction has matured these past forty years, it has broadened to include a host of things Uncle Hugo would have barfed at. And yet is hasn't forgotten that science and technology are the root shapers of any future we may yet have. The best of us are producing works of fiction which are broader in their understanding of the current state of humanity than all but the very best of mainstream literature. In another forty years mainstream will have fallen into its own navel and disappeared, and I won't miss it. By then SF will have broadened to become all the literature we need. It will have healed the rift between Snow's Two Cultures--//if it doesn't forget where it came from.// So when I hear the chappie complaining about discussing film technology and FTL and such when we should be discussing *art* and *literature* I hearken back to my undergrad days...might I suggest that he retire to a quiet corner and ask himself "Why not commit suicide?"--and by the way, here's a .44 to take along in case you reach the correct conclusion... A toast to human nature, FTL, joy, sorrow, and Schroedinger's Cat-- Let us achieve our quest to knit the Two Cultures back into one. --Jeff Duntemann duntemann.wbst@xerox ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 14-May SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #84 *** EOOH *** Date: 14 May 84 1243-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #84 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 14 May 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 84 Today's Topics: Administrivia - Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net, Books - Libertarian SF, Films - 2010 & 2001 & Capricorn 1, Television - V: The Final Battle (4 msgs), Miscellaneous - Planetary Destruction (3 msgs) & How to Get Rich with a Time Machine (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 May 84 14:16:56 EDT From: Saul Subject: Administrivia Beginning sometime in the next week in the very pages of this digest I will be re-presenting the one, the only, the original episodes of HITCH HIKER'S GUIDE TO THE NET. I now have the entire 13 episodes plus the two episodes of THE RESTAURANT AT THE END OF THE NET. One episode will appear in each digest at the very end of the digest. I would like to thank all those out there who sent me the episodes from wherever they were buried. And of course a thanks to the author(s) of this opus whomever he/she/it might be. Saul ------------------------------ Date: Fri 11 May 84 12:10:52-PDT From: Laurence R Brothers Subject: libertarian sf Well, the books I've read by (F?) Paul Wilson have libertarian themes (Enemy of the State, and Healer, the first more than the second). I see you must like pure libertarian propaganda if you liked the books by Schulman and Smith. I agree they're fun to read, but the books by Smith (sequels to the Probability Broach are two, but I can't remember their names) read more like issues of "handguns of the world" than science fiction novels. Except for the fact that I am basically libertarian at heart, I would consider the books you mentioned to be political propaganda of the basest and most egregious sort, similar to the stuff put out by the Nazis in the '30s to inspire their youth movements. Since the libertarian party in the US is really something of a joke, and since they mostly seem to be fairly decent fellows I would not ascribe evil intent to such novels, especially as I agree with the basic ideas, but still it seems a little crude to attempt to spread the word in such form. The novels by Wilson seem to be more libertarian-oriented science fiction rather than propaganda with science fiction trappings. Many other sf writers seem to be basically libertarian, viz. Heinlein, Dickson, Anderson, etc. but they generally do not have their characters ranting on for pages on the advantages of anarchy and why even schoolchildren should carry fusion pistols. Oh, recently a novel was published that takes place in a mythical African country of the future which is basically libertarian in a world of corporate states, and it is quite good despite the propaganda, but for the life of me I can't remember the author or title--perhaps someone else on the net knows, as I would like to read more by the author. The reason ths reply is going out to the net instead of in a personal reply is that I am interested in other people's positions on fiction as a vehicle for propaganda--do you think its ethically and/or literarily ok? It seems to me that neither of these is the case, but you already know this from the above text. -Laurence ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 84 16:32:14-PDT (Tue) From: hplabs!hao!kpno!astrovax!dp @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: 2010 - Peter Hyams Douglas Rain was the voice of HAL 9000, of course! ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 84 16:05:12-PDT (Mon) From: ihnp4!ihnss!knudsen @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Saturn not pretty enuf for Kubrik The irony of 2001, a generally beautiful film, is that its depictions of Jupiter and its moons pale to dullness next to the real thing, as beamed back by the Voyagers and other probes. Swirls and eddies on Jupiter, furrows on ?, ice cracks all over Europa, Io's hell -- yessir, truth can really beat hell out of fiction. If anyone had dreamed up something like that for Kubrik, he might have refused it, saying "that's too fantastic... there's enuf LDS trip stuff at the end. People would laugh at those planets." Well, I just read 2010, and the special effects to do it anything like justice had BETTER BE GOOD! Hope they rip off all they need from NASA. No more plaster Jupiters ...mike k ------------------------------ Subject: "Capricorn 1" Date: Fri, 11 May 84 09:39:36 EDT From: Nathaniel Mishkin Now I know for sure I must have been the only person who liked "Capricorn 1". Sure the special effects were marginal, but what about the chase scene(s) at the end with the helicopter chasing the bi-plane and then smashing in the side of a cliff? Great stuff. I especially liked the ending where the "dead" astronaut arrives at his own memorial service. Nicely understated -- just a slow motion to the end with the TV cameras turning around to show the guy running up -- i.e. we were spared the "now what happens after the jig is up" scene. Marching to a different drummer? -- Nat ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 84 16:29:49-PDT (Wed) From: hplabs!hao!kpno!astrovax!ks @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Invasion of the Space Nazis, the final battle [water] I haven't seen more than 2 minutes of "V"; the discussion on the net says that "they" are here to steal our water. This really does seem to be ludicrous to me; the satellites of the outer planets (Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus) are made up largely of ice. Any civilization needing water could simply melt Callisto (Jupiter's outermost Galilean moon) and have thousands of times the water available in the Earth's oceans. If this is really the premise for "V", then I'm glad I missed it. ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 84 14:29:38-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!akgua!clyde!watmath!utzoo!kcarroll @ From: Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Invasion of the Space Nazis, the final battle concerning the sky-fie space opera V, Brad asks, "How can so much money be spent and nobody be asked?" how to write a good SF story? Easy: It was done in Hollywood! I'm sure that the people involved in V think that sci-fi starts and ends in hollywood, that all the BEM movies ever made are typical of the genre, that the only sf literature ever produced are novelizations of old movies. In other words, they don't know about Asimov, Heinlein, Clarke, Campbell, and all the others on the honor roll, they've never heard of Astounding or F&SF, and they likely think that they're the first ones to ever come up with the "Food of the Gods" concept. What can you expect from the industry that gave us "The Eye Creatures"? They're right, you know: sci-fi DID start in hollywood, and will hopefully end there. Forry Ackerman lives out in that neck of the woods, I beleive, and he invented the term "sci-fi" (taken from "hi-fi") to label the type of stuff coming out in movies at the time: pseudo- science-fiction done by amateurs masquerading as film producers, who knew nothing of the vast body of work that they were ignoring. -Kieran A. Carroll ...decvax!utzoo!kcarroll ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 1984 0927-EDT From: Warren Sander Subject: "V" vs "V the final battle" If anyone remembers the end of "V" Juliet has just sent a message for help out to the 'enemies' of the Visitors. (The resistance found out about these enemies from Martin). If as is supposed in "The Final Battle" the "Doomsday device" has been used before one must wonder how many planets there are out there that the Visitors have contacted and either enslaved, destroyed or been chased out of? Also, why were world wide communications restored within seconds of the 'red dust' falling out of balloons? On the lighter side there still are possibly millions of humans and billions of gallons of water on there way back to the Vistors planet (in the book the other mother ships left Earth orbit before the doomsday device was started). Since all these people need to be returned to Earth there is going to have to be a sequel if the ratings were high enough to warrant it. Warren Sander @ DEC-MARLBORO ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 84 22:58:41-PDT (Tue) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!ut-sally!jsq @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Invasion of the Space Nazis, the final battle There's a story called ``Proxima Centauri'' by Murray Leinster that has huge, self contained star ships, and invading, ravenous, people-eating aliens. It is at least representative of that sort of thing, and can be found in The Road to Science Fiction #2, edited by James Gunn. The story was originally published in 1935, from which we can infer that popular sf on television has advanced to the state of pulp sf of the 30s. That's at least as good as the movies, I suppose, seeing as the Star Wars saga is equivalent to E.E. "Doc" Smith space opera of the same vintage. (2001 and The Lathe of Heaven are not representative, and neither had the same kind of popularity.) But, then, Leinster was more creative even back then (his aliens were carnivorous plants), knew something about science (he used relativity correctly), and went on to better things (``First Contact,'' written in 1945, is still the classic story of its kind). I doubt we can expect the same of the perpetrators of V. What really annoyed me was the blatant lift of the beginning of ``Space Nazis'' from Childhood's End. In service of the drivel that followed. I hope Arthur C. Clark sues them for plagiarism, not to mention fraud. -- John Quarterman, CS Dept., University of Texas, Austin, Texas 78712 USA jsq@ut-sally.ARPA, jsq@ut-sally.UUCP, {ihnp4,seismo,ctvax}!ut-sally!jsq ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 9 May 1984 05:50:48-PDT From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (The Stainless Steel Rat) Subject: Re: Planetary destruction plans Re: Our continuing plan to blow up the Earth... > The center of a planet is likely to contain a high > concentration of uranium and thorium. They are heavy and sink to > the middle of planets with fluid cores. Now Star Wars was set "A > long, long time ago". U-235 has a shorter half-life than U-238, > thus the concentration was higher earlier in the life of your > average planet. Far enough back, it would have been a fissionable > mix. > Dani Eder > ssc-vax!eder Your assumptions are based on faulty logic. The intro to SW says, "Long ago, in a galaxy far, far away." Now it is only reasonable to assume that a galaxy in which there is a highly advanced technology sufficient to support a galaxy-wide empire is a far older galaxy than our own. This assumption is borne out by the existence of stars of varying ages in our galaxy - Sol is only about 4 to 6 aeons old, but there are stars old enough to have burnt most of their fusionables and been reduced to white dwarfs or neutron stars. The universe is believed to be 12 to 16 aeons old - in that time, a galaxy that coalesced very early from the primordial cosmic eggwhite would have produced pretty much the same mixture of stars as exists here, but much earlier. Thus, the U235/U238 concentration in any given planet is a variable - that of Alderaan, for example, would likely be decayed even further than that of Terra, whereas that of Endor might be expected to be richer, perhaps even containing plutonium and other trans-uranics. Dick Binder decvax!decwrl!rhea!dosadi!binder DEC, Littleton, Mass. ------------------------------ Date: Wed 9 May 84 14:54:47-EDT From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA Subject: Squii..sh How to destroy a planet cheaply: Get in your time machine, go back 10000 years, and deposit a one-oz gold coin at 5% compound interest. When you return to the present, the accumulated pile of gold coins will form a black hole of approx 10**170 metric tons. Squish! PS: don't use the Atlantis Loan & Savings - we tried that, but after 1000 years the continent couldn't take the weight of gold. ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 84 15:33:02-PDT (Mon) From: ihnp4!ihnss!knudsen @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Blowing up Earth, and Jupiter methods It's reassuring to know billionnnzzzz of tonnnzzzz of antimatter would be needed to blow a planet apart, tho blowing up its Sun would serve the purpose just as well for present and future life on the planet. I understood differently the danger in "The Gods Themselves" (one the BEST SF novels I've ever read); it was that the weakening of the nuclear force wouyld spread to the Sun, which would then nova prematurely. In fact, the triple-sexed people in the other universe were already suffering from a dimming of their sun, since in their universe the nuclear force was getting stronger, making fusion more difficult. New topic: How to blow up Jupiter. Years ago, I figured that if a sufficiently crushproof H-bomb could be parachuted down to where Jupiter consists of metallic hydrogen, and detonated, a chain reaction could easily be started that should blow most of the planet away. Needless to say, I don't recommend it this close to Earth. ...mike k PS: not to be confused with making a permanent star out of Jupiter-- "their failures were the wonder of astronomers on a thousand planets". ------------------------------ Date: 3 May 84 20:12:57-PDT (Thu) From: decvax!dartvax!richard @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: How to Get Rich with a Time Machine Problems with your second point. It's not who wins, but who dies. If Patton had been given his fuel, then more german's would have died. All of whom have affected our present. Not only that, if the war had ended sooner, perhaps the Allies would have made it to Berlin first. Time travel is confusing, as every voyage back in time, creates another alternate reality, another alternate universe. Which one you return to when you go back to your time, no one can say... ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 84 21:14:43 EDT From: JoSH Subject: How to make money with a time machine All of you guys are missing the central concept here: namely the time value of money. This is most commonly evidenced by the interest rate. Here's one way to take advantage of it: First, we want to operate over the period 1830-1890 or so (when US banks were more or less deregulated). Take $1000 or so (change it to gold first) and go back to 1831. Put it in a handy bank. Assuming you can get 5% interest (more on that later), when you take it out in 1890 you'll have $17,789.70. Take that out, go back to '31 again, put it in, hop to '90, and withdraw $316,473.45. Take that back to 1830 and found the bank. Because you now (!) own it, you can easily pay yourself the 5%. Use the time machine to skim the period and avoid any major bad investments, and you should be able to get a 5% return without causing any waves. When you close down in 1890 (just before the feds close in) you walk away with $5,911,466.30. A tiny bank, nobody will notice it closing. If you're greedy, run it through again, but your closing down a major bank for no apparent reason will attract notice. --JoSH ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 84 18:11:09-PDT (Wed) From: hplabs!hao!denelcor!lmc @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: $1 in the bank "$100 placed at 7% interest compounded quarterly for 200 years will increase to over $100,000,000 - by which time it will be worth nothing." -Lazarus Long Lyle McElhaney (hao,brl-bmd,nbires,csu-cs,scgvaxd)!denelcor!lmc ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 14-May SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #85 *** EOOH *** Date: 14 May 84 1310-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #85 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 14 May 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 85 Today's Topics: Books - Bradbury & Calvino & Eco & Fairbaines & Kurland & Stasheff (2 msgs) & Vinge, Films - Supergirl & Roll-Your-Own Films (2 msgs), Television - V: The Final Battle (5 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 14 May 84 10:02:52 EDT From: Will Martin (DRXAL-FD) Subject: "Bradbury 13" has improved I had previously posted a very critical initial review of the "Bradbury 13" NPR radio series. I am surprised and most pleased to say that it has gotten MUCH better. The last two episodes I heard, "Kaleidoscope" and "Dark They Were, and Golden-Eyed", were far superior to the preceeding ones in terms of the suitability of the stories for radio adaptations and the listener's enjoyment of the programs. Since NPR stations are carrying these programs in a staggered manner, you may well be able to hear these episodes locally. I recommend that you do so, if possible. If the producers had aired these stories as the first ones in the series, it would have been a much better introduction; even if the same poorer episodes, which were aired as the first ones, had been broadcast later in the series, their failings would have had much less effect, as the audience would have known how good the series could be, and could dismiss these lower-quality programs as abberations or low points, when compared with the superior quality of these good programs. I now look forward to the later episodes. Will ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 12 May 1984 13:29:57-PDT From: bazemore%babel.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Barbara ) Subject: Italo Calvino Samwise requested more Italo Calvino titles, so I rummaged around and found one. _Cosmicomics_ - 12 short stories which follow an evolutionary theme, copyright 1965, English translation 1968. It is pretty strange, full of non-sequiturs. Something to read when you're tired of main-stream SF. Barbara Bazemore Digital Equip. Corp, Nashua, NH decwrl!rhea!babel!bazemore ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 11 May 1984 12:09:39-PDT From: minow%rex.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: Book recommendation -- The Name of the Rose Strictly speaking it's not SF, but I think many SF-LOVERS will enjoy reading Umberto Eco's "The Name of the Rose" -- a very literate detective story set in the middle ages. If you know Latin and medieval Catholicism, you'll understand and enjoy more, but it's a great story even for us infidels. Martin Minow Fri 11-May-1984 15:06 Maynard Time. Martin Minow MLO3-3/U8, DTN 223-9922 ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 84 14:39:18-PDT (Thu) From: ihnp4!inuxc!inuxg!burton @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: SUNBURST; SF heroines How about Benefits, by Zoe Fairbaines. Fairly recent, definitely SF (speculative fiction). Doug Burton ATT-CP Indianapolis inuxg!burton < I tried to mail this, but we have trouble returning mail to Arpa sites > ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 84 17:31:44 EDT From: Liz Subject: kurland Kurland also wrote The Unicorn Girl (no it is not a heroic fantasy...it is a very funny alternate universe book) and a book whose name escapes me right now about alternate universes and Aaron Burr. I really enjoyed both of them. liz// ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 84 0:19:55-EDT (Tue) From: pur-ee!CS-Mordred!Pucc-H.Physics.cca @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Book Request (Christopher Stasheff) I believe the sequence is: ???? - a prequel, forget the name... "The Warlock in Spite of Himself" "The Warlock Unlocked" "King Kobold" The prequel (which I have cleverly forgotten the name of) is the latest, but has been out for several months at least. Just look around. Charlie Allen ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 84 18:42:44-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!chris @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Book Request [Warlock series by Christopher Stasheff] Yes, these are great. There is one more in the series, which has just been reissued after a complete revision by the author. The title is ``King Kobold Revived'', although the ``Revived'' doesn't seem to make any sense (probably should have been ``Revised''). Go read it. If you haven't read {\it The Warlock in Spite of Himself}, go read that first. In-Real-Life: Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci (301) 454-7690 UUCP: {seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@maryland ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 84 12:32:40 EDT From: Paul Milazzo Subject: Re: True Names Cc: James Jones > Another of [Vinge's] *Analog* shorts, sometime in 1972 I think, > concerned a sentient colonizing ship with some flavor of humans > [...] aboard. - James Jones I believe you're thinking of "Long Shot". The humans were gametes on a ship fleeing Sol gone nova. The plot concerns the fact that the ship forgets its programming on the way to Alpha Centauri (I think) because the trip took ~10**5 years, and the data on the magnetic tapes evaporated. My copy is 1500 miles from here, so I'm not sure of the details. Paul G. Milazzo (temporarily hiding at CMU) Dept. of Computer Science Rice University, Houston, TX ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 84 13:38:34 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: film news "Supergirl" has been delayed in release until Christmas. Wolfgang Petersen (directed "Das Boot" and the upcoming "The Neverending Story") has replaced the previous director, whose name escapes me but was not familiar, on a science fiction film called "Enemy Mine". I've never heard of it before. It's currently shooting in Iceland, and it's budget is in the $15-$20 million range, and rising. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 11 May 1984 13:26:25-PDT From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (The Stainless Steel Rat) Subject: Roll-your-own Roll your own, eh? Okay, I vote for _The Mote in God's Eye_ as a great possibility. It has space war sequences; high-tech from an alien culture; the aliens themselves, who could not be faked with people in alien suits; a good possibility for a romantic subplot; a grand scale, and (to me the most important point) a real message. The SPFX people could have a field day with it. I'd think that Lucasfilm would build the best miniatures. Only problem I see is its length - it's a monumentally long book, and admittedly slow in spots; unfortunately, some of those slow spots carry information that is critical to plot development. Dick Binder decvax!decwrl!rhea!dosadi!binder ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 84 13:56:32 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: Re: roll your own sf films I've always thought this a sort of fun way to waste time, so I guess I'll join in. "The Stars My Destination" always seemed to me to be a perfect source for a film, and Robert DeNiro a good choice for the male lead. I don't remember Margaret Avery, so I can't comment on her. Spielberg, though, really isn't the right director for this kind of film. Spielberg has some very strong points as a director. He is a master of action sequences, and does well with suspense. He has a talent for sentimentality, as well. He has not, however, shown any aptitude for morally complex characterizations or the darker sides of human emotions. Since this is the whole point of the book, a different director might be a better choice. The perfect director for this project, in my opinion, Werner Herzog. He is a German director who specializes in films about men with tremendous, usually insane obsessions. "Aguirre: The Wrath of God" concerns a Conquistador who is so determined to find a treasure city in the South American jungles that he winds up killing all of his men. We last see him floating down a river on a raft with only a bunch of monkeys for companions, madly certain that he will succeed. Another Herzog film, "Fitzcarraldo", is probably the most impressive film ever made about obsession. In this film, a man literally drags a steamship over a mountain in the middle of the Amazon, surrounded by hostile natives. Now that's obsession. A far more appropriate film for Spielberg would be "Little Fuzzy", from H. Beam Piper's novel. This is precisely the kind of material that Spielberg excells at, and takes as its source a fine novel, as well. I have no good ideas about casting it, though. Another good film for Speilberg would be Burrough's "A Princess of Mars". Non-stop action in a romantic setting. If Speilberg isn't available for it, George Miller should do well in his place. For those who forget, Miller directed "The Road Warrior" and the only worthwhile episode of "The Twilight Zone: The Motion Picture". (I wonder how many people are under the mistaken impression that Spielberg directed that last episode?) Kathleen Turner, who starred in "Body Heat" and "Romancing the Stone", would be fine as Dejah Thoris, but John Carter is hard to cast. No, Harrison Ford is not even remotely suitable. Errol Flynn or Douglas Fairbanks, Jr. in their prime are more what's required, and their sort is rare nowadays. Technology has finally caught up to the special effects requirements, but now there are no great swashbucklers to play the lead. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 84 13:15 PDT From: Subject: V -- The Final Blunder What gets me about "V" is that they were stealing water from Southern California, an area that steals water from Northern California! Other than that, it seemed to be good escapist fare, at least to this non-critical viewer. (I figure if it doesn't make me turn away in the first 5 minutes, it's better than at least 80% of commercial TV.) -- Chucko Chucko%SCH-GODZILLA@MIT-MC ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 11 May 1984, 16:48-PDT From: Michael Wahrman Reply-to: mike at RAND-UNIX Subject: Why TV Writers Dont Care About Technical Accuracy From: decvax!watmath!bstempleton @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Invasion of the Space Nazis, the final battle What I don't get is why they never asked their engineers any questions about the plot. With all the money they spent, they could have easily hired one educated consultant. Anybody with any knowledge of science would say that the idea of aliens coming here to steal our water and eat us is really silly. I think I can answer this question from the times I have worked with people who write for television. What follows is obviously a generalization but I believe it explains what one sees on the tube. TV writers (producers and directors) have a model of the viewer that watches their work. They believe that the viewer (1) doesn't care about accuracy, (2) doesn't care about consistancy, (3) is basically very stupid and (4) needs to have everything explained many times and (5) needs a lot of action or suspense on a regular basis especially right before a commercial or the channel will be switched. The last time I discussed accuracy with a writer who was working on a pilot she told me "Dont waste my time." ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 84 17:47:19-PDT (Wed) From: ihnp4!ihnss!knudsen @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Space Nazis; Magic in SF I enjoyed watching "V" (with my educated brain set to Star-Wars mode, where it ignores all the scientific impossibilities), until the final scene where hybrid child Elizardbeth pulls her magical powers on the Bomb controls. I had the same problem with "The Secret of NIMH" -- namely, I can't stand it when a "rational" SF story mixes in PURE MAGIC (without even calling it "sufficiently advanced technology"). Actually, I thought ET's magic was beautiful (brain in kid mode?), but V's ending looked like "oh my gawd, only 2 minutes in the 4th quarter" by the screenwriters. mike k ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 84 7:10:16-PDT (Wed) From: decvax!mcnc!duke!ucf-cs!giles @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: drying planets... >> 1. There is a planet of amphibious(?) beings which is literally >> "drying" up, for any number of reasons.... Okay, what are some of those reasons? Did everyone decide to drink at the same time? (Or is it flush?) Seriously, you can't get rid of water that easily. Contaminate it, yes. But destroy it, no. (unless you have *very* inefficient fusion plants :-)). And, even if by some unbelievable process their water does disappear, it would probabily be far easier to skim hydrogen of the neighborhood gas giant and combine it with oxygen smelted from any nearby rocky planetary body; at least compared to hauling megamass of water over interstellar distances. No -- Drying planets with indigenous life belong in the same class of stories as those with alpha Centari visible from New York. Perhaps 1 out of 10,000 has a valid explanation, but certainly none generated in Hollywood falls into that category. ave discordia going bump in the night ... bruce giles decvax!ucf-cs!giles university of central florida giles.ucf-cs@Rand-Relay orlando, florida 32816 ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 84 23:52:56-PDT (Thu) From: ihnp4!mit-eddie!gds @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: drying planets... >> 1. There is a planet of amphibious(?) beings which is literally >> "drying" up, for any number of reasons.... > Okay, what are some of those reasons? Did everyone decide to > drink at the same time? (Or is it flush?) Planet-wide drought, caused by imbalances in the hydrogen-oxygen mixture of the planet's atmosphere. The same, caused by the planet moving out of orbit (closer to its sun). The same, caused by contamination of the planet's atmosphere (perhaps natural, perhaps not). > And, even if by some unbelievable process their water does > disappear, it would probabily be far easier to skim hydrogen of > the neighborhood gas giant and combine it with oxygen smelted from > any nearby rocky planetary body; at least compared to hauling > megamass of water over interstellar distances. That is assuming those type of planets exist in their solar system. If they don't, they must come to other planets. And if they are going to do that, they might as well get water in its natural form (even if they have to steal it) rather than go to Jupiter and do it the hard way. Be ye moby, for I am moby. Greg Skinner (gregbo) {decvax!genrad, eagle!mit-vax, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gds You can't trust anyone around here with the su password these days. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 15-May SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #86 *** EOOH *** Date: 15 May 84 1342-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #86 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 15 May 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 86 Today's Topics: Films - Leiber the Actor & 70MM Films & 2010 (3 msgs) & Roll-Your-Own Films (4 msgs) Star Trek (2 msgs) & Star Wars, Television - V: The Final Battle (5 msgs), Miscellaneous - W&W Installment ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 9 May 84 11:57:00-PDT (Wed) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: re: Fritz Leiber -- the Actor?? Not to mention several familiar names in the credits for Flesh Gordon. I remember seeing Tom Reamy under Props, f'r instance. ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 84 21:13:45-PDT (Wed) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!pournell @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: 70MM Film Bonanza It's not strictly true that "35mm neg ---> 70mm release == 35mm neg ---> 35mm release". In addition to the 4 or 5 extra sound tracks on the film, the extra print area helps decrease The Creeping Grainies. Also, 70mm projectionists tend to take better care of their charges then the jackfools who run 35mm prints on Christies. Also, magnetic sound is much better than the horrible optical sound on most 35mm. ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 84 17:52:48-PDT (Wed) From: ihnp4!ihnss!knudsen @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Nit picking on 2010 (slight SPOILER) I hate to bug a novel as good as 2010, but -- when Dave Bowman re-enters HAL the second time and tells HAL to re-orient the antenna and send the last message to Earth -- I thought that the antenna and its notorious AE-35 box had been removed and junked when the Russian ship was strapped on at the antenna mount. Hard to believe the dish would survive the mounting, the forces, the explosive charges at separation, and the Russians" rocket blast. Yeah, Clark didn't say they removed it, just seems kinda necessary. Watch and see how the movie screws this one up... mike k "...except Europa. That belongs to the V-Lizards." ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 84 9:38:07-PDT (Wed) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!akgua!clyde!burl!ulysses!gamma!pyuxww!pyu From: xn!rlr @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: 2010 - Peter Hyams Frankly, I prefer "2009: Jupiter & Beyond" directed by Woody Tobias, Jr. as shown on SCTV (Cinemax) last night. Simon & Garfunkel in space combined with Abbott & Costello Go To Mars, Spock's Brain, the Wizard of Oz, and Duck Soup (imagine the famous "mirror" scene from Duck Soup done with Art Garfunkel and a black monolith with legs wearing a read frizzy wig; by the way [SPOILER] the black monolith drops on the Evil Queen killing her) Try and beat THAT, Peter Hyams!!! Now I've lost my train of thought. I'll have to catch the bus of thought. Rich Rosen pyuxn!rlr ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 12 May 1984 13:12:33-PDT From: karger%ultra.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Paul A. Karger -- DTN 229-6087) Subject: Douglas Rain and 2010 Douglas Rain was the voice of HAL in 2001. By the way, Rain is a fine Shakespearian actor and has been a frequent star at the Stratford Shakespearean Festival in Stratford, Ontario, Canada. I remember him nearly 20 years ago as Prince Hal in Henry IV and as the King in Henry V. ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 1984 13:54 EDT (Sat) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" Subject: roll-your-own-SF How about the "Doc" Smith's Lensman and Skylark series? They've certainly got as much action as ever Star Wars did, with plenty of opportunity for visual effects: imagine the battle between the Earth forces and the Pirates from Triplanetary. And Lensman at least even has a bit more plot. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 May 84 03:13 EDT From: Aspnes@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Amber, The Movie On the basis of the dogs vs. Mercedes-Benz chase in the beginning of Nine Princes in Amber, I would give Random to Mel Gibson (Sting could play Julian). Also, I can't see Malcolm McDowell, who usually plays characters possessed of either childlike innocence (Time After Time) or adolescent psychopathy (Clockwork Orange, Caligula, etc.) playing Eric, who is basically noble, and only appears evil because Corwin doesn't like being blinded (Eric foolishly assumed it beat being dead.) Most of the major characters can be easily cast, though. One big problem shows up with Benedict: how do you find someone who looks like Ichabod Crane, and at the same time looks like a military genius greater than Napoleon, Patton, and Von Klausewitz combined? --Jim ------------------------------ Date: Sun 13 May 84 16:24:45-PDT From: Laurence R Brothers Subject: Amber Films I concur with the previous few messages; the Amber Series would make an incredibly good movie or series of movies -- but only if **I** were the director! I would hate to see someone else, even if they were competent, do the movies, because it would ruin my personal version of the Amber universe. While I'm on the subject, does anyone know anything about the three new Amber novels Zelazny is contracted for? That is, possible release dates, general subject matter, etc. WARNING: If anyone spoils the plot for me, I may get violent.... ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 1984 07:54:31-EDT From: carol at mit-cipg at mit-mc Subject: book--> movie wish The New Sun Series! At Boskone, Gene Wolfe was asked if he'd been approached for movie rights, and he said no, but he'd be happy to negotiate them if anyone were interested. He cast Mia Farrow as Dorcas, and I agree. How about these others: Severian - Jack Lord (maybe someone else for young Severian, like Matt Dillon?) Agia - Faye Dunaway Jolenta - Raquel Welsh (apologies to her as an actress, but she does have a luscious bod) Jonas - John Hurt Master Paelemon - The guy who was the general in Star Wars that made Princess Leia watch her planet blow up Master Guerloes - Orson Welles Thecla - The woman who played Athena on Battlestar Galactica (Marin something?) and for the Autarch - Gene Wolfe himself. Probably Spielberg to direct, with Wolfe's consultation, of course. e ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 84 6:49:03-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!jonab @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Re: Spock didn't have to die... In article <433@sri-arpa.UUCP> Ed Blanchett@RU-GREEN.ARPA writes: >I don't think that the sensors couldn't lock onto the Reliant to >beam Genesis aboard (V9, #75) is quite the right explanantion. >Having just seen ST-II on cable last night (for the umpteenth >time), the sensors were indeed working, and trained onto the >Reliant (for Spock says that he is "picking up an unusual energy >wave from the Reliant" - the Genesis Wave). If the sensors were >working, it should have been very easy to lock onto Genesis to stop >it from detonating. Another possible explanation might be that the >energy wave might have been lethal to be around (there were lots of >gases coming from Genesis when it was building up), making it >somewhat difficult to be in the Transporter Room with it at the >same time. It is much easier to detect that something is there than to determine exactly where it is. If the sensors were so scrambled during the battle that the Enterprise could not see the Reliant to fire at it, why should they suddenly become clear after the battle? Jon Biggar {allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,sdccsu3}!sdcrdcf!jonab ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 84 10:15:31-PDT (Fri) From: ihnp4!houxm!mhuxl!mhuxt!js2j @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Re: Re: Spock didn't have to die... Spock really did have to die. Even if sensors could lock onto the Genesis machine and beam it aboard the Enterprise, what could be done with it then? At most, they could beam it a few hundred (thousand?) miles away. I've never seen transporters used at ranges much farther than that. The genesis wave, in order to scrape up enough dust from the cloud they were in to create a planet and a sun for it would have had to extend for a range of at least several light hours, probably more. Thus, the ONLY way for anyone on the Enterprise to survive was to warp out of there. Jeff Sonntag ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 84 13:41:44-PDT (Thu) From: decvax!dartvax!markv @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Death Star weapon. About the Death Star weapon... I don't know if I am thinking of the same Niven weapon or not, but in one of his Known Space stories ("World of Ptavvs"), the Slaver uses a weapon which neutralized the charges on the electrons in the atoms of whatever matter it touched. The result was that the atoms blew themselves apart by electromagnetic repulsion, leaving a cloud of subatomic dust. (It's really gruesome when he uses it on living flesh.) Anyone care to speculate on the plausibility of this weapon? It seems like it should work. My only question was -- how about the strong nuclear force in the atom? I thought that this force was much stronger than the electromagnetic force at distances on the order of an nuclear radius. Mark Vita Dartmouth College {decvax,cornell,linus}!dartvax!markv ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 84 20:30:45-PDT (Tue) From: ihnp4!houxm!mhuxl!ulysses!burl!clyde!watmath!utzoo!utcsrgv!randy From: @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Invasion of the Space Nazis - (nf) What bothers me more that all of the blatant violations of physics and all that is what the producers have done to the biological sciences. Tell me if you will, what the chances could be of two races, evolving on different worlds, being able to cross fertilize??!! I'll probably watch the final part tonight for a good laugh! Randall S. Becker Usenet:{dalcs,dciem,garfield,musocs,qucis,sask,titan, trigraph,ubc-vision,utzoo,watmath,allegra,cornell, decvax,decwrl,ihnp4,uw-beaver}!utcsrgv!randy CSNET: randy@Toronto ARPA: randy%Toronto@CSNet-Relay ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 84 1:02:44-PDT (Wed) From: decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!gds @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Invasion of the Space Nazis, the final battle >What I don't get is why they never asked their engineers any >questions about the plot. With all the money they spent, they >could have easily hired one educated consultant. Anybody with any >knowledge of science would say that the idea of aliens coming here >to steal our water and eat us is really silly. Water the most >precious substance around? Give me a break! People with >biotechnology like that needing to steel our bodies for food, >especially when they have to feed us? Come on. And lizards? >Sure. (This one is the worst. I am fully prepared to believe >human looking aliens with common ancesters to ours, but lizards in >perfectly molded body suits? I do not think it is silly. I didn't see the first episodes of V last year, so I don't know the background of their civilization or why they came to Earth in the first place. But consider: 1. There is a planet of amphibious(?) beings which is literally "drying" up, for any number of reasons. Since water is scarce, all primitive forms of life (they ate mice, for example) die out eventually, leaving the beings. They have an advanced technology enough to duplicate the epidermi of other species. Also, they are a warlike, fascist state, who feel no shame in taking from other worlds. 2. Earth is 70% water, and almost all life on Earth is mostly comprised of water. (we are, for example, as most primates I imagine would be, most mammals in general I suppose). These beings could certainly use us for food, assuming there are enough of us around. It wasn't as if they were going anywhere -- the world's population of humans and other life could keep their numbers alive for quite a few years. When they finally exhaust the supply of life on Earth, they can just move off to another planet. Water is a more precious substance than we Earthlings care to think of it as. Think about worldwide drought for a long period of time (one year, let's say) and the effects of it on world politics, health, the economy, etc. (Think of Soylent Green, also. We ate ourselves when it came down to it, why shouldn't a band of ruthless aliens do the same?) Be ye moby, for I am moby. Greg Skinner (gregbo) {decvax!genrad, eagle!mit-vax, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gds You can't trust anyone around here with the su password these days. ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 84 8:59:50-PDT (Thu) From: decvax!dartvax!kenv @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Invasion of the Space Nazis, the final battle [water] If the Visitors were advanced enough to build interplanetary spacecraft, they ought to be able to synthesize water out of hydrogen and oxygen. (shouldn't they?) Ken Varnum (..decvax!dartvax!!kenv) ps- What happened to the other 49 mothercrafts???? ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 84 8:27:16-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!trwrb!trwspp!urban @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Invasion of the Space Nazis, the final battle The final battle was my effort to keep my dinner down when I saw how they "resolved" the story. So dumb I'm embarassed to admit I spent the time watching. In this morning's L.A. Times, they printed NBC's planned Fall schedule. "V" will be a regular series on Friday nights in the 8:00-9:00 slot. Some Hollywood special-effects lab will be kept in business for a while more, I guess. Mike ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 1984 1647 PDT From: Eric P. Scott Subject: V: no surprises Reply-to: EPS@JPL-VLSI.ARPA ...the silly business of the little girl turning all sparkly and reversing the blow-up of the mother ship... Firestopper! The obvious lead-in for a possible sequel, with Diana taking off in the shuttle craft (shades of Darth Vader in his fighter at the end of SW - ANH!) was just too "cute" for words... We should be so lucky. NBC recently announced their fall lineup (guess what's going to be a regular series?). Are there that few "aliens invade Earth" plots, or am I just suffering from a bad case of deja vu? "Technologically advanced aliens arrive, claim to be our friends, set up an `exchange program,' really want humans for munchies" (=> Twilight Zone "To Serve Man") "Reptilian aliens wear body suits to pass for human, hybrid daughter uses strange powers at the end" (=> "Strange Invaders") etc. Anyone else take to referring to Robin's daughter as "Lizard Breath?" V would lend itself well to a MAD-style treatment... "I couldn't help but noticing that you have `ring around the collar.'" Pickles and mousies... -=EPS=- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 84 13:43:15 PDT From: Barry Gold Subject: W&W W&W installment 16 is available via ftp on BNL in file /usr/barry/ww16. If you can't use ftp and aren't already on the mailing list, send mail to me at lcc!barry@UCLA-LOCUS. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 15-May SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #87 *** EOOH *** Date: 15 May 84 1451-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #87 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 15 May 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 87 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov (2 msgs) & Corey (3 msgs) & Finney & Robinson & Sex in SF, Films - Roll-Your-Own-Films, Television - V: The Final Battle, Miscellaneous - Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 11 May 84 10:02:11-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!aecom!jsanders @ Ucb-Vax Subject: pun help needed Anyone understand the pun at the end of Asimov's short story "Sure Thing" in "The Winds of Change.."? The pun is "Sloane's Teddy wins the race." The only twist I can think of is "Tony's Sled wins the race" but that means absolutely nothing to me. Jeremy Sanders {ihnp4|spike|rocky2|philabs|pegasus|esquire|cucard}!aecom!sanders ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 84 5:16:06-PDT (Sat) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!zben @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: pun help needed Would you believe "Slow and steady wins the race"? Ben Cranston ...seismo!umcp-cs!zben zben@umd2.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Mon 14 May 84 14:05:26-EDT From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA Subject: Title Enquiry The "small African country" in the near future is surely the story "Manna", by Lee Corey, serialised last year in Analog, now out in pb. As I recall, it wasn't libertarian, more mercantilist, but made very well the point that we can ALL get rich in an open (non-zero-sum) system, and that there are people who will do almost anything to stop such systems from happening, because they would then have no more helots to boss around. It's a good story, and the characterisation came over better (to me) than in "Shuttle Down". There's even a "competent man" in it, rather more believable than most of Heinlein's. Buy it. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 May 1984 17:23 EDT From: Rob MacLachlan Subject: Libertatian SF Might that recent, somewhat libertarian book be "Manna" by Lee Corey? I read this when it was serialized in Analog, and it was reasonably entertaining. It seemed that his big idea was not libertarianism, but the end of the "Economy of Scarcity", meaning that there's enough goodies to go around, so people don't have to be so nasty to each other. Of course there are certain parties that like things very fine the way they are, thank you, so there is quit a bit of action. Rob ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 84 17:46:57-PDT (Sun) From: hplabs!hao!denelcor!lmc @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: libertarian sf Oh, recently a novel was published that takes place in a mythical African country of the future which is basically libertarian in a world of corporate states, and it is quite good despite the propaganda, but for the life of me I can't remember the author or title--perhaps someone else on the net knows, as I would like to read more by the author. It's "Manna", by Lee Corey (aka G. Harry Stine). The propaganda is a little thick, but the Libertarianism flows more or less naturally from the Philosophy of Abundance that is the central idea forming the basis of the country in which the novel takes place. I would like to know if there is some connection between the backgrounds of the inhabitants of the country (predominantly African and Persian Gulf) and this philosophy, something that predisposes to it. Correy's other books all speak somewhat to personal freedom; "Skydriver" discusses freedom in an business setting; "Space Doctor" and "Shuttle Down" have side plots based in freedom of personal choice. Primarily Stine promotes space. The political and personal ramifications flow from the wealth, the "pioneering" spirit, and the attitude of the people attracted by the challenges. This philosophy is reflected in a lot of authors: Heinlein, Niven, and Pournelle jump to mind. Lyle McElhaney (hao,brl-bmd,nbires,csu-cs,scgvaxd)!denelcor!lmc ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 84 11:17:03 PDT (Monday) Subject: Re: TZ time travel: "The Third Level" From: Kevin The author of the story on which that episode is based is Jack Finney, best known for "Invasion of the Body Snatchers." He also has written several short stories that have similarly nice fantasy and time travel blendings, most notably "The Love Letters," with lovers sending letters across a century. ~Kevin ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 84 11:55:11-PDT (Fri) From: pur-ee!CS-Mordred!Pucc-H.Physics.dub @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #64 Ok, I for do NOT like Spider Robinson!! There! Well, to be truthful, I have only read Stardance , Telempath, and a Callahan's Saloon story. Stardance was o.k. and successfully made the transition from novella to novel. Telempath didn't; the puns in it were so bad that at times I felt like strangling the author. The puns DID NOT add to the story. The same goes with the Callahan story. Robinson is too punny; blah! ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 84 0:51:44-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!ames-lm!barry @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Blue Sky Fie "Blue Sky Fie", huh? Cute phrase; but not too many examples of the stuff around, last time I checked. This has always been a pretty strait-laced genre. But there are exceptions. No discussion of the subject would be complete, I think, without mention of the field's greatest pioneer in this area, Philip Jose Farmer. Even his classic "The Lovers", which dates from the early '50's and is not even racy by today's standards, much less pornographic, was considered very shocking in its day, and I have heard it languished for some time before finding a publisher. Forget the namby-pamby stuff, though - Farmer's real claim to fame in the Blue Sky Fie department comes from a number of books he wrote in the late '60's. The three I'm aware of are IMAGE OF THE BEAST, BLOWN, and A FEAST UNKNOWN, of which I have read the first and last named. I believe there was a fourth book which would qualify, but I don't know the title. Farmer is a fine writer, but if your curiosity should lead you to trying these books BE WARNED: these are not what most people would call 'erotica' - they're more like what Stephen King calls the 'gross-out', and gross they are. I think Farmer's intent was to shock the reader speechless, not to provide a turn-on. There's a lot more emphasis on blood, gore, guts and veins-in-your-teeth than there is on sex. Me, I don't know what to make of 'em. They're too unlike typical pornography to have been a simple hacking-for-money job. I guess they're an attempt to overload and short-circuit the 'civilized' parts of the reader's nature, a sensory-overload trip, like some drugs. But I speak as shouldn't, for I didn't like the ones I read, so I probably missed the point. But whatever their quality, these books clearly show that Farmer is a true pioneer of Blue Sky Fie, and should be recognized for it. Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA Electric Avenue: {dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames-lm!barry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 May 84 14:51 PDT From: Harris Shiffman Subject: Roll-Your-Own-Films This is kinda fun. How about some early Heinlein, from before his sexually explicit days? Specifically: Double Star - Always had a fondness for this one. Redford would be perfect as Bonforte. I wonder if he could do a sufficiently broad performance to be a convincing Lorenzo. The Puppet Masters - If Hollywood can do Invasion of the Body Snatchers (twice), why not another (arguably) better tale of alien invasion? The Door Into Summer - A perfect SF tearjerker. Would have to be updated a bit, as Heinlein's view of the technological level of the 70's was a bit too optimistic. ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 84 10:33:31-PDT (Fri) From: decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!gds @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Nonsense in V I too, was disappointed in the ending of V. Too predictable, and too much like Star Wars. I was expecting the ending to go something like this: Since Elizabeth witnessed three murders (1 -- her mother murdered her boyfriend, 2 -- Diana murdered Pamela, and 3 -- Diana murdered her commander (?)) I expected that she would have gotten a taste of blood. Following this, instead of stopping the nuclear destruction, I expected that she, following the example of those she saw, was actually going to START it! The Earth would have been saved of course, but at the cost of the lives of the rebellion (there ought to be some cost for freedom, shouldn't there?) The greatest letdown was Diana's escape. Reminiscent of Darth Vader's escape. Now they have to make a sequel. That is the problem with sci-fi -- Hollywood just wont let it go ... admit they did a good thing and let it go at that. Instead, they figure they have to go all the way with a good idea, and drain as much money out of it as possible. This problem plagued TV shows such as Battlestar Galactica and led to their eventual demise. Look for a new TV show one fall: V: The Battle Continues and we will all be flaming about how the TV show is losing in the years to come. Be ye moby, for I am moby. Greg Skinner (gregbo) {decvax!genrad, eagle!mit-vax, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gds Joy is in the ears that hear. ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 84 14:27:29 EDT From: Saul Subject: Hitch hikers guide to the galaxy Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net Episode 1 - First Meeting One day, not long after tomorrow, Arnold Lint was busy scrolling through the seemingly infinite reaches of the Net. All of a sudden the news stopped with an abrupt thud, followed by the angry message "YOUR NODE HAS BEEN REDUCED TO A LITTLE BLACK, GREASY SPLOTCH IN MY MEMORY SPACE!!". No sooner had he assimilated this horrendous event when a great suction like noise began to eminate from his terminal. "This is it", he said to himself, "I'm going to die". The screen on his terminal the imploded and he suddenly found himself sucked into the terminal . . . . . . . . . . . . (Arnold Lint regains consciousness, only to find himself in the company of an odd trio. One of the trio is an apparently normal human male (named Rod Perfect) and the second is a voluptuous young woman (named Gillian). The third is also a normal male (named Xaphod Gronklebox), except for a third, mechanical, arm and a 12" CRT on his shoulder that keeps scrolling "Pieces of Eight, Pieces of Eight".) Rod: Evening all! I'm Rod Perfect, awfully rude of you imploding on us this way, you silly twit. Arnold Lint: Sorry. Am I dead? Xaphod: Obviously not, you semi-evolved simian! Are all you net-landers so stupid. If you were dead would I be talking to you? I'm Xaphod Gronklebox, the famous inter-net-al criminal and dog molester - you must have heard of me. Arnold Lint: Actually, no, I haven't. Xaphod: Oh well, your loss. I just hijacked this node! It's called the Infinity, isn't it wild. Just imagine the places we can go in this baby. (Rod notices that Arnold's eyes are transfixed on the young woman) Rod: Her name's Gillian, at least that's what she wants to be called. Actually, her real name is Gertrude Floogie, but she didnt't like it, so she changed it. (Arnold Lint detects a mechanical sound to his right. A robot soon walks into view) Robot: My name is Martin. I am sure you will have an absolutely awful time on this node, I always have. I do not know why they insist on trying to do things to change the Net, they can only make it worse. No matter what happens, some one always says something stupid and ruins everything. Then someone else feels obliged to a rebuttal, and on and on it goes. How awful. Still, what do you expect from an imperfect Net. Rod: Martin is a bit, well, depressing. Xaphod: He's a real downer, man! Martin: That's right, ridicule me. See what I care. I'm only an android. Just another example of cruelty in this awful Net. (******************************************************************** The "Hitch Hikers Guide to the Net" defines cruelty as having to see constant repetitions of the same salutory comment in more than 20 messages. History shows that a war was fought over the repetition of the statement "If you don't like my name - push off, signed xxxx" appearing in 200 messages from the node of Moronicus. Since that time, any time a salutory message is used more than 20 times, subsequent violators have their pelvis screwed to a cake stand while they are forced to watch repeats of "The Gong Show". ********************************************************************) Arnold Lint: Well, what do we do now? Xaphod: We're on our way to Netrothea. (The 12" CRT on his shoulder now starts repeating "Polly want a sedative, Polly want a sedative") There's supposed to be all sorts of wild and amazingly great things in that place! Rod: Martin, set course for Netrothea! Martin: All right, but you're not going to like it. Gillian: What will we find on Netrothea? Xaphod: Well, there's supposed to be a huge stockpile of data there that we can sell to the Net for millions. Arnold Lint: A stockpile of what? Xaphod: Data! Data! You idiot. Knowledge is power in the Net. All that data has been accumulating over the centuries. Just imagine the amazingly amazing philosophical Net-discussions that it stored. I mean, the Net is the focal point of all wisdom. Just think of all that smart stuff! Wow! (******************************************************************** The "Hitch Hikers Guide to the Net" insists that the focal point of all knowledge in not the Net itself. Rather, it is the fourth stall in the mens room in Grand Central Station. No one has ever been dumb enough to waste time disproving this wild claim, so the publishers avoided some nasty laws suits. ********************************************************************) Xaphod: We'll have millions! We'll buy everything! No, we'll have billions, trillions, . . . . (Xaphod begins to shake violently and froth at the mouth, then he falls over backward. A few seconds later he comes to.) Xaphod: Well, lets go! Rod: You all right? Xaphod: Yah, sure. Just the excitement of new conquests. Arnold Lint: Looked more like Flamers-syndrome to me. Xaphod: You should talk, you key-pounding half-wit. Gillian: If we're going to go, lets go already. Martin: Do we really have to? Rod: YES! (Just as the node starts on it's way, a host of flame-shaped vessels became visible on the scanners) Rod: Funny you should mention Flamers-syndrome. Xaphod: Oh, hell! Gillian: What are they? Xaphod: Damn, those are ships belonging the Flamers. They go after anything, no matter how pointless or unimportant it is. If they catch us, we could suffer permanent brain damage, or worse yet - join the Moral Majority Arnold Lint: So this it it, we're all going to die! Martin: I told you that you would like it. Others: Oh Shut Up! ******************** End Of Part 1 ******************** Will Arnold and his new travelling companions escape the Flamers? Or will they end up playing rock albums backwards at 66.6 RPM? For the answers to these, and countless other pointless questions . . . Tune in next time . . . same Net-time . . . same Net-channel ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 16-May SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #88 *** EOOH *** Date: 16 May 84 1233-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #88 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 16 May 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 88 Today's Topics: Books - Dewdney & SF Best Sellers (2 msgs), Films - Star Trek (4 msgs) & Star Wars, Television - V: The Final Battle, Miscellaneous - The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 May 84 8:06:12-PDT (Sat) From: ihnp4!mit-eddie!gds @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: review of "The Planiverse" How can there be "underground" in a 2D world? Be ye moby, for I am moby. Greg Skinner (gregbo) {decvax!genrad, eagle!mit-vax, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gds Joy is in the ears that hear. ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 84 8:50:32-PDT (Mon) From: sri-unix!hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!jensenj@stolaf.UUCP Subject: SF best sellers In recent years SF books have sort of graduated in the public eye from "pulp" to bona fide "literature" as evidenced by the sudden inclusion of many good SF books into the national best sellers lists. While there have been many such books, they are still too few. But while they are still few enough in number, it should be possible for us to compile a fairly good list of such books. Include straight SF even fantasy. (I would like to include Stephen King too, but that might be pushing it a bit too far...) Here are a few that come immediately to mind: Asimov -- Foundation's Edge Heinlein -- Friday Clarke -- 2010: Oddessey Two Donaldson -- White Gold Wielder The One Tree The Wounded Land I know Marion Zimmer Bradley had at least one, but I don't remember the title. Anybody want to have a shot at it? ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 84 8:48:42-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!cas @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: SF best sellers Well, this just goes to show that there is no relationship between best sellers and literature. Anyway, Nevil Shute's "On the Beach" must have been a best seller (maybe literature too). Cliff Shaffer ...rlgvax!cvl!cas ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 84 15:53:51-PDT (Sat) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!clyde!watmath!utzoo!utcsrgv!randy From: @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Spock didn't have to die... I disagree that transporters, assuming they exist, could not be used to remove the problem of the genesis machine. If you would recall the episode "Wolf in the Fold"... The entity who once was called Jack the Ripper, and who migrated to Rigel IV with mankind, and then to Argelius has taken over the Enterprise computer system. The crew and computer system (!) are given some form of a tranquilizer forcing the being into a "dead" body. The body is then sedated and placed in the transporter and... beamed out into space at the widest possible angle! Given that our only source of information about the Enterprise is the series and previous movies, the genesis machine could have been dispersed. The "ionic" interference which blinded the Enterprise sensors would have probably caused the transporter to be unsafe (Because, it would not be able to reconstruct the transportee at the destination, which is the exact effect desired in this case. Randall S. Becker Usenet: {dalcs,dciem,garfield,musocs,qucis,sask,titan, trigraph,ubc-vision,utzoo,watmath,allegra,cornell, decvax,decwrl,ihnp4,uw-beaver}!utcsrgv!randy CSNET: randy@Toronto ARPA: randy%Toronto@CSNet-Relay ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 84 17:19:43-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!lanl-a!unm-cvax!josh @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: spock didnot have to die....... one: I know this is interesting but as someone said.... "For every new posting there is 20 followups" I don't believe this. "for every new posting that has nothing to do with the real world there results 20 followups" two: If the genesis device was beamed into the transporter could the transporter have kept it without putting it anywhere? In some shows people have been held in the transporter for times and did not even notice. They could have beamed the genesis into the transporter and fixed the warp engines at their convenience. Then and only then ,when the warps were fixed, put it back out into the real world and move away. QED I could always be wrong.... Josh Siegel University of New Mexico {convex,ucbvax,gatech,csu-cs,anl-mcs,lanl-a}!unmvax!unm-cvax!josh ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 84 13:45:18-PDT (Sun) From: decvax!yale-comix!nglasser @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Spock didn't have to die I think the way the genesis probe was discussed was the following (I last saw TWOK about 2 or 3 months ago): Spock noticed an unusual energy pattern. David told him it was the genesis wave. Kirk suggested that they beam it aboard and disable it, but David told him that there was no way to stop it. So that's when it became clear that the only thing they could do was warp out of there as fast as possible. Nathan Glasser ..decvax!yale-comix!nglasser ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 84 16:31:42-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!oliveb!jerry @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: beaming the genesis machine It was always stated that the transporter would not work thru shields. No beaming bombs into the other guy's engine room. If the genesis machine generated any kind of field at all it might be impossible to lock onto it when it was active. Jerry Aguirre {hplabs|fortune|ios|tolerant|allegra|tymix}!oliveb!jerry ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 84 17:15:52-PDT (Sun) From: hplabs!hao!denelcor!lmc @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Death Star weapon. Anyone care to speculate on the plausibility of this weapon? It seems like it should work. My only question was -- how about the strong nuclear force in the atom? I thought that this force was much stronger than the electromagnetic force at distances on the order of an nuclear radius. The strong nuclear force does indeed hold the nucleus together. There seems to be confusion between the nucleus and the atom itself. The weapon neutralizes the charges on the electrons, which become something very like small-mass neutrinos, and they leave the scene to the unshielded nuclei. These disperse due to their mutual magnetic repulsion. They do not themselves disintegrate, presumably because the weapon does not affect their magnetic repulsion/strong force attraction balance. The radius of effect of the strong force is on the order of the size of the nucleus; the size of an atom (its electron shells) is several orders of magnitude greater and the strong force has no role in keeping the electrons with the nucleus. The plausibility is the same as for FTL, thiotimoline, and the radio in Galileo's day - impossibly small *at this time*. Later on, who knows? Lyle McElhaney (hao,brl-bmd,nbires,csu-cs,scgvaxd)!denelcor!lmc ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 May 84 11:23:13 EDT From: Will Martin (DRXAL-FD) Subject: Yet more on "V" To beat a dead horse even further, we had a discussion here about "V" regarding what the writers (I use the word loosely) COULD have done with the [admittedly incredible] idea of the cross-racial children, instead of the rather weak and sloppy ending they did come up with. My idea: Both children live. The little girl turns out to have all the nasty and evil qualities of the aliens' psyches, is a quisling turncoat traitor, and helps the Visitors in their malevolent missions. (The story would continue over years beyond the birth, of course, and the children would grow at a more normal pace, not the silly speeded-up situation that was used.) The reptile creature remains nasty-looking, but has all the good qualities that can be found in humans, a veritable saint in fact. He helps the rebels, maybe has psychic powers, etc. The idea of a colleague: Ignoring the reptile child for now, and concentrating on the girl. She grows up to be a chameleon, able to shift her shape into a reptile or human at will. She forms a bridge between the species. Either of those ideas would have improved the ending of "V" immensely, and also provided ample opportunities for spinoffs ("I Married A Reptile", "Father Sssss", etc.) and sequels ("The Return Of V", "Son of V", "Beneath the Planet of the Vs", etc.). Where do I go to pick up my check? Will ------------------------------ Date: 16 May 84 12:13:01 EDT From: Saul Subject: Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 2 Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net Episode 2 - The Flamers (The Infinity's scanners are showing the Flamer's ships approaching fast. Arnold Lint and Rod Perfect are franticly scurrying about. Xaphod is trying to figure out how to fly the node, and Gillian is fixing her makeup. Martin the android is off on a corner moping about how he's too young to die.) Xaphod: This is the node Infinity, we are on a peaceful, although a bit mercenary, mission. Hold your fire. (The commander of the Flamer's fleet appears on the screen. He appears to be a normal human, except for a small silver halo stapled to his head.) Flamer: I am Adolf Riteyus, commander of the Flaming Queen. You have violated Flaming space and must be blasted. You will be given a fair and drawn out hearing before you are found guilty. Rod: We didn't know this was Flaming space! Adolf: Ignorance is no excuse. Do you think that just because you don't know something you shouldn't be responsible for it? Why, if we didn't go around blasting people who thought they were innocent, there'd be no order. The whole power structure of the Net is based on the inalienable right to flame. He who flames the loudest and strongest will prevail, for he will have maintained purity of essence by not compromising his principles. It doesn't matter what one flames about, as long as one comes out a winner. Winning the argument for mandatory retroactive birth control is one of our greatest victories. We Flamers always win because we never give up. No, things are either our way or they're WRONG. [The "Hitch Hikers Guide to the Net" lists the Flamers as one of the most argumentative races in the Net. History shows that the Flamers went to war over the right to keep and bear tongue depressors. They also had a violent and bloody discussion over the morality of Odor Eaters. The only time the Flamers can be easily beaten in combat is on Sunday mornings when they all watch evangelist shows, or during Ronco "Mr. Microphone" commercials (their symbol of worship).] Gillian: What should we do? Xaphod: How 'bout evasive actions? Marvin: It won't help. Rod: Oh shut up! Rod: OK, evasive action! Adolf: Where do you come from? Xaphod: Not from around here. Adolf: Where are you headed? Rod: Left. Gillian: That's telling him? Adolf: What is your favorite color? Arnold Lint: My what? Adolf: Your favorite color! Rod: White! Adolf: What is the maximum warp speed of a ladened Swaldrel? Xaphod: Denebian or Rigelian? Adolf: I don't know that . . . all right, enough evading, if you don't surrender in the next five seconds I'll blast you right out of existance. Rod: Well, now what. Adolf: Five! Arnold Lint: What's this button do? Adolf: Four! Xaphod: That's the Illogical Drive. It propels the node on power from hard drugs and acid rock. It's kind of dangerous though. Adolf: Three! Arnold Lint: Should we try it? Adolf: Two! Rod: Well, lets not . . . Four! Adolf: Four! Arnold Lint: So this is it, we're all going to die. Adolf: Three! Martin: I warned you about this trip. Adolf: Two! Xaphod: All right, all right, engage the Illogical Drive! Adolf: One! (Arnold Lint engages the Illogical drive. Images of the movie "Easy Rider" float across the view port. "In-a-gadda-da-vida" starts coming across the radio. The 12" CRT on Xaphod's shoulder starts scrolling "Wow man, what a trip!". The scanners show that the Flamers couldn't handle the sudden flood of sensory excitation and burst their brains. This only made their reactions a bit slower though as the Flamer's brain is remarkably small. The Infinity, charged up with Liquid Super Duetrillium, was able to make warp speed and turn the corner before the Highway patrol picked them up on radar. This was fortunate for it meant that they wouldn't be caught by Spiny Norman, the 45 foot blue hedgehog that had been following them.) Gillian: We made it. Rod: Yah, where are we Martin. Martin: We're way out man. Xaphod: Oh, he's useless now - it'll take a while before he comes down. Arnold Lint: At least he isn't so gloomy. Martin: Nooo body knows, the trouble I've see . . . have any of you ever contemplated the death of a grain of salt? [The "Hitch Hikers Guide to the Net" points out that the life and death of a grain of salt can have amazing importance in the course of life on the Net. On particular grain of salt (named Nigel) was responsible for the overthrow of an entire government. Nigel gave his . <- Nigel life by falling into the barrel of a shotgun that was aimed at the planets dictator. Thanks to lousy marksmanship on the part of the rebels, only Nigel was able to hit the dictator. The rest of the buck shot killed the dictator's pet salmon, Eric. Nigel, however, penetrated the dictators eye and eventually killed him 8 months later just before a firing squad cut the dictator in two.] Rod: Shut Up! Xaphod: Well, lets get back on course. Arnold Lint: What are those? (The scanners now show a dozen ships shaped like the number one heading toward the Infinity.) Xaphod: Those are Singularan ships. They're worse than flamers! Rod: Oh yeah, they're worse than a visit from an insurance salesman. Gillian:They're normally mild mannered computer scientists. But when they get on the Net, they become endowed with a superhuman ability to talk about incredibly personal things, things they couldn't otherwise discuss. Arnold Lint: Sounds awful. Martin: That's what I keep telling you. Rod: Shut up! Xaphod: If we don't get out of here fast, we'll end up debating which finger a divorced person should wear his or her ring on when going to homosexual orgies - or worse, have to go to a Pot Luck Dinner where all that the people do is talk. ******************** End Of Part 2 ******************** Will the crew of the Infinity avoid the clutches of the Singularans? Or will they end up exchanging recipes for onion dip. For the answers to these and several other amazingly unimportant questions . . . Tune in next time . . . same Net-time . . . same Net-channel. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 16-May SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #89 *** EOOH *** Date: 16 May 84 1304-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #89 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 16 May 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 89 Today's Topics: Films - Enemy Mine & Roll-Your-Own Films (3 msgs), Television - V: The Final Battle (4 msgs), Miscellaneous - Art and Literature & How to get Rich (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 15 May 1984 09:24:47-EDT From: carol at mit-cipg at mit-mc Subject: Enemy Mine Could this be a film adaptation of the novella "Enemy Mine" by Barry Longyear? It's FAIRLY do-able, though seems to me there was a lot of talk-scenes among the action. Audiences will like it, though, if it's brought off - good, clean, sentimental tear-jerker. And I'm happy for Longyear, he's a hard worker and a nice guy. ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 84 20:16:16-PDT (Sat) From: harpo!ulysses!allegra!princeton!tilt!smw @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Roll-your-own (Alien characters in films) > From: matt@oddjob.UChicago.UUCP (Matt Crawford) > > ... In particular I think that there has been no real portrayal of > aliens as complete characters in the movies.... You are free to > claim that Chmeee and Phssthpok are flat compared to, say, human > characters in Casablanca or GWTW, but the competition in sf films > is with the likes of Chewbacca and E.T. (Who knows what the hell > they're thinking about?), Yoda (of the one-track mind), or the > Blob. > Any counter-examples? Why, OF COURSE. The best-developed character in all of the realm of science fiction -- from the original concept, through 79 TV episodes and reams of further material, culminating in three movies. Spock, of the planet Vulcan. Okay, he's only half alien. Then again, Phssthpok (is that spelled right?) is also of the same blood as humans. Stewart Wiener :-) someone just smiled for no special Princeton Univ. EECS :-) reason, looks like the smile's come princeton!tilt!smw :-) back into season... ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 84 17:28:41-PDT (Sun) From: hplabs!hao!kpno!astrovax!dp @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: roll your own sf films I agree absolutely that "A Princess of Mars" should be made in the near future. Personally, I think that Spielberg would be the best choice as director, but his talents should be enhanced by the presence of Lucas in a creative and organizational role (producer perhaps). The "Star Wars" trilogy has already demonstrated Lucas' ability to create and accurately follow the history of an entirely imaginary civilization without allowing these details to swallow up the swashbuckling flavor of his stories. The "Star Wars" movies have more in common with Burroughs' Barsoom stories than any other work of fiction (in any medium) that I am familiar with. Lucas alone has demonstrated the capacity to generate the atmosphere of adventure amidst totally alien settings (albeit at the expense of depth of character) which was Burroughs' specialty (no one ever accused Burroughs of overcharacterization, either). In addition, someone like Lucas should be looking over Spielberg's shoulder to make certain the movie maintains the breakneck pace of the Barsoom books; try comparing the pace of "Raiders..." (joint Lucas/Spielberg effort) with that of CE3K, E.T., or even "Jaws". I agree that John Carter would be difficult to cast. He is the element I like the least about the Barsoomian novels, since he is too close to the stuff of mythology to be at all unpredictable; in this sense, some of the later books ("Chessmen of Mars") would somewhat avoid the problem of a "Superman" on Barsoom by deflecting attention from him to a less imposing figure. Whoever plays John Carter must be impressive physically (in appearence and agility), but also not take the character too seriously. I have often thought that Chris Reeve might make a decent John Carter because of his well-played (at least in the first film) role as Superman (an even more awful part to play), but I believe that the setting and atmosphere of a Barsoomian adaptation would be much more important to its success. For this reason, I would also hope that John Williams, whose music captures the spirit of adventure better than that of any other modern composer, would write the score (an immensely important part of the atmosphere in this sort of film). In any case, all of the preceding is simply my personal speculation; I hope that American International Pictures (the people who brought us "At the Earth's Core" from the Pellucidar series and "The Land that Time Forgot" from the Caspak series : yuck [ed. comment]) does not still own the rights to Barsoom as they did during the 1970's, or someday soon we may see Doug McClure as John Carter... I welcome any discussion about the Barsoomian series which anyone might like to start. ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 1984 10:17:34-EDT From: Robert.Zimmermann at CMU-EE-FARADAY Subject: roll your own I don't really think there's a better book to make into a film than Heinlein's Starship Troopers. It's got spaceships and rayguns for the kiddies (and each one will want his Mattel-HeinFILMS *Official* DropShip with the Cap-Trooper Action Figures, ad nauseum), a very solid basis in science for the nit-pickers, some nice sociological interplay in the background (whether or not you agree with it), and it's about the right length. We open aboard the Valley Forge (that was the first ship, no?), for suiting up, and dropping. Then we switch to a knoll above a small city at dawn. There is a 'skinny' standing there when hell breaks loose from above. 'Eggs' are dropping all over the place, there are fires... Can't wait to see it ... ... from the oft confused world of Robert A Zimmermann raz@cmu-ee-faraday ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 84 14:28:22 PDT (Monday) From: GMeredith.ES@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #83 In same issues of the Digest carrying messages about 'V', there appear messages about pornography in SF and in one of the latter, the author makes a statement about 'a little SF with the porn' vs a little porn with the SF. In the case of 'V', it is a matter of a little SF in the soap opera. The holes in the 'science' are nothing compared to the holes in the plot flow, which seems to be a series of almost individual stories (originally intended as weekly episodes in a series?) thrown together. In turn, the plot within the sub-story is driven by the sleazy soap technique of adding 'action' through contrived, superficial situations based on gross character flaws or immature actions of the characters (note the willfull, childish, simplistic nature of the lead male and his competitor or the female lead in the Visitor group). The special effects were acceptable, though the second 'twin' looked like something out of the cheapest of the Japanese drivel. 'Attack of the Killer Tomatoes' did better with less. If it bothers me so much why did I watch the all three parts (did not see the first show a few months back)? I ask the same thing: perhaps it is for the same reason idiots stop to ogle traffic accidents. Guy ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 84 21:10:02-PDT (Sat) From: decvax!cca!ima!ism780!chris @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Invasion of the Space Nazis, the fin (Doc Smith Lives!) I somehow doubt that water is nearly as precious as you think. The moons and rings of saturn are believed to include some large (multi cubic mile) chunks of ice. Even rocks contain quite a bit of water. Plans for a moon base include a device for disassociating water from the lunar soil. Mars has ice caps, venus has water in the clouds (they are sulfuric acid clouds, but there is lots of water in them) and the outer planets have water vapor and ice. The next argument is that "It is too hard/expensive to get to this water". The answer is that it's far harder to cross space to another star. The British Interplanetary Society did a design project called Daedelus that was designed to send an instrument package to Barnard's Star. It was phenominally expensive, on the order of the GNP of the US. The project involved mining the atmosphere of Jupiter for fuel for the craft. If we can scoop atmosphere out of Jupiter, we can move some ice moons from Saturn. All this was just to send a small instrument package four and a scosh light years. Trying to transport the populace of a world would have to be much more expensive. Even allowing for warp/hyperspace/subspace types of drives, it would still be amazingly expensive to transport large numbers of people between the stars. The final problem is that planets change very slowly. It takes millions of years for things like the amount of water to change significantly. The only example we have of a planet that has dried out is mars. Is used to have more water (pictures show unmistakable erosion features) but it never had seas or oceans. At best there was enough water to dig some large canyons. It took literally hundreds of millions of years for even this small (compared to the earth) amount to be lost to space. The length of time necessary for a water world to dry out is large even by geological standards. The problem with Hollywood SF is that it is largely done by people who are not SF enthusiasts. Today they do SF, tomorrow adventure, and on tuesday, psychodrama. V was better then it might have been (Battlescared Lexicon comes to mind) but it still wasn't that good. chris vortex!ism780!chris decvax!cca!ima!ism780!chris ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 84 14:53:14-PDT (Fri) From: ihnp4!cbosgd!bsw @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Invasion of the Space Nazis, the final battle [water] And If the "Visitors" were just meanies who enjoy destroying inhabited worlds, etc. then why didn't they just take the polar ice caps, which would take less room, if they kept it around 32 degrees F. Plus, they also needed humes for food (Here mousie!...) Ben Walls ...cbosgd!bsw ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 84 23:09:37-PDT (Sat) From: ihnp4!mit-eddie!gds @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Invasion of the Space Nazis, the final battle >> "V" will be a regular series on Friday nights in the 8:00-9:00 >> slot. I seem to recall that Galactica came on in the 8:00-9:00 slot also. (Fate!! We will be watching "V" reruns 2 years from now.) I doubt "V" will outdraw Benson/Webster. It might stand a chance against The Dukes of Hazzard. Be ye moby, for I am moby. Greg Skinner (gregbo) {decvax!genrad, eagle!mit-vax, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gds Joy is in the ears that hear. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 May 84 21:47:25 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: Re: art and literature and sf uber alles "................................................The best of us are producing works of fiction which are broader in their understanding of the current state of humanity than all but the very best of mainstream literature. In another forty years mainstream will have fallen into its own navel and disappeared, and I won't miss it. " --Jeff Duntemann duntemann.wbst@xerox I composed a flaming rebuttal to this submission, but when it reached 100 lines I realized that this was not such a good idea. Suffice it to say that I do not believe that the best works of recent fiction are sf, and I do not believe that sf is destined to conquer. Anyone who really does believe this is invited to correspond with me privately. I don't think it's worth the reading list's time to rebut this kind of claim. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa ...ucb-vax!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 84 0:44:05-PDT (Wed) From: decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!gds @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: How to Get Rich with a Time Machine >2) My second thought concerns mankind's tendency to make >war. At those times men [...] black marketeering without >affecting his own future. As an example, take Patton near >the end of the European conflict in WWII. His push >northward into Germany was halted due to a lack of fuel. >Since, in an historical sense, the Allies were destined to >win anyway, it may not have made a great deal of difference >who reached Berlin first. Patton would have liked to do it >himself and I'm sure, if offered the fuel from somewhere, >he would have paid enough for it to make it worth one's >while. >The problem here is twofold. (1) George Patton was not an >extreamly >wealthy man. and (2) Do you have any idea how much >fuel Patton's IIIrd >Army used? It tookfornia 92152 The major point here is, does changing the time when the Americans reached Berlin first have a bearing on future events? I do not remember when the Berlin Wall was built, but it most probably was a consequence of Russia's occupation of Poland and East Germany. Had we reached there first, we could have avoided the building of the wall, and possibly the Cold War might not have come to pass. But the ramifications of that are unknowable. It may be that war might have broken out between Russia and the U.S. for influence of Poland and East Germany. (This is outside of net.sf-lovers, so I think I'll quit here. Flame away!!) -- Be ye moby, for I am moby. Greg Skinner (gregbo) {decvax!genrad, eagle!mit-vax, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gds You can't trust anyone around here with the su password these days. ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 84 16:51:40-PDT (Sun) From: hplabs!hao!denelcor!lmc @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: How to Get Rich with a Time Machine The major point here is, does changing the time when the Americans reached Berlin first have a bearing on future events? I do not remember when the Berlin Wall was built, but it most probably was a consequence of Russia's occupation of Poland and East Germany. Had we reached there first, we could have avoided the building of the wall, and possibly the Cold War might not have come to pass. But the ramifcations of that are unknowable. It may be that war might have broken out between Russia and the U.S. for influence of Poland and East Germany. Indeed it was a consequence, but somewhat more remote than appears to be believed in the discussion. Russia's occupation of Poland and East Germany became recognized, of course, at the close of WWII, in 1945. Berlin was partitioned at that time, to Russia's disgust, since it was buried deep in "their" territory. The cold war really began shortly after WWI ended; only our refusal to enter WWII until after Hitler attacked its ally Russia kept us from a hot war with Russia in the meantime. The "wall of shame" was erected by the East Germans in August of 1961, in response to the 1000 emigrants per day leaving East Germany via West Berlin. The cold war was in the cards; Berlin was only the convenient site for the confrontation. Microhistory would have been changed if all of Berlin and Germany had been liberated by the western powers in 1945 - the effect on the long run of history is much less certain. Sorry about a dry history lesson in these surroundings, but if history isn't clear, how can you (or I) tell it from an alternate reality? :-) It's also far from the original subject, but who cares? Lyle McElhaney (hao,brl-bmd,nbires,csu-cs,scgvaxd)!denelcor!lmc ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 17-May SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #90 *** EOOH *** Date: 17 May 84 1043-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #90 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 17 May 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 90 Today's Topics: Books - Daley & Kurland & Libertarian SF & Sex in SF (2 msgs), Trivia Answer, Films - Roll-Your-Own Films (2 msgs), Television - V: The Final Battle (3 msgs) & TV Writers, Miscellaneous - Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 3 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 16 May 1984 11:34 EDT From: Dean Sutherland Subject: A short review I recently read a book by Brian Daley which surprised me with its quality. The book is "A Tapestry of Magics". I was most impressed with his characterization of the protagonist, one Crassmore, who has the misfortune to have been born into a family where heroic deeds are a tradition. In fact his older brother is a bonafide Hero. Crassmore, however, has the very sensible attitude that he would rather be as far as possible from any heroic deeds -- it's safer. In fact, his preference is for wine, women and song. Unfortunately, Crassmore is a member of an order of knights who are required to heroically support the underdog whenever they are asked; if the order ever hears of his having failed to uphold his knightly oath, they will force him to retire to a monastery where all the monks are celibate and sober (a fate just barely worse than death). The book is the story of how Crassmore becomes a hero (not HERO, or even Hero), while trying very hard to avoid it. An enjoyable read with some good characters and some very memorable scenes. Worth buying in paperback. ------------------------------ Date: Tue 15 May 84 15:33:47-EDT From: Janice Eisen Subject: Michael Kurland Kurland's novel about Aaron Burr (and Alexander Hamilton, and zeppelins, and all sorts of wondrous stuff) is called THE WHENABOUTS OF BURR. Very enjoyable, but a warning: the ending is *very* anticlimactic. Janice ------------------------------ Date: Tue May 15, 1984 08:48:03 EDT From: decvax!ncoast!bsafw@Berkeley (Brandon Allbery,524-1416) Subject: Re: Libertarian SF? I always had the impression that one of the purposes of literature is to show the ideas/feelings of its author; thus, Heinlein, Dickson, etc. use it to push libertarianism, and (it is reported) E. E. "Doc" Smith used it to indicate that mankind should strive to be, not just a jack-of-all-trades, but master of ALL of them. Isn't that a side-effect of the fact that all writing must necessarily derive from the author's experiences and beliefs? Brandon Allbery ...decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!bsafw ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 May 84 16:13:20 EDT From: Daniel Dern Subject: blue skies,fi! THE TIDES OF LUST, by Samuel Delaney. Graphically erotic (or vice versa). Is it sf? DHALGREN, ibid. Ditto, albeit not all the time. ASTRA & FLONDRIX, by Seamus ?. Creatively and amusingly pornographic. Fantasy. Some of Ted Sturgeon's stories, at least one of which appeared in Hustler. How about THE FORBIDDAN TOWER, Marion Z. Bradley... THE BLUE WORLD, Jack Vance (no, that's blue, but not taboo...) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 May 84 02:50 MST From: Deryk Barker Subject: sex in SF How about Edmund Cooper's "Kronk" (aka "Son of Kronk" although god knows why - there's no one called Kronk in the book) In this one - I quote from memory as someone "borrowed" my copy and mysteriously never returned it! - a geneticist develops a new form of venereal disease which has two effects - firstly everyone infected becomes intensely nymphomaniac (and whatever the male equivalent is - I apologise for the inherent sexism of parts of the English language) - the next stage is that they become very passive and non-violent. The book tells the tale of the inventor's widow (can't recall why he's dead) and "friend"'s crusade to infect the world and bring "peace in our time". There is a catch, of course, but I hate spoilers. Among their first targets are, naturally, most of the foreign embassies in London. Of course, what I don't know, is whether Cooper is published much in the US. It's worth trying to track down though, as well as being reasonably filthy the book is very very funny. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 May 84 22:13:22 edt From: csin!cjh@cca-unix Subject: trivia answer I've gotten absolutely no responses to the question of who was first in the hearts of ASTOUNDING readers when Heinlein was second, so I'll post this now and get it off my queue. The name was "Anson MacDonald"---which was a pseudonym Heinlein and Campbell had created so more than one Heinlein story could be run in an issue! (Anson was RAH's middle (and his mother's maiden) name, but I'm not sure why/whither MacDonald.) (Yes, Jerry, I got this originally from Ken Johnson) ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 84 13:58:38 PDT (Tue) From: Mike Brzustowicz Subject: SF movie suggestions How about the Stainless Steel Rat series...combine Star Wars with Indiana Jones. -Mike ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 May 1984 11:25 EDT From: Dean Sutherland Subject: roll your own SF movies... I have always pictured the Chronicles of Amber with Donald Sutherland (no relation) cast as Brand. He fits the physical description (tall, thin -- almost emaciated, red hair, etc.), and is a fine actor. Other possible subjects for a good SF/Fantasy movie include: One or more segments of Vance's Dying Earth Some of Anderson's Flandry series Cherryh's Downbelow Station Many Heinlein; my favorite candidate for a movie is "Magic, Inc." Niven's "A Gift From Earth" and many more which escape me at the moment. Dean F. Sutherland ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 84 18:56:42-PDT (Fri) From: ihnp4!ihnss!knudsen @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Book of "V" I got mail from someone who had read a book version of .... Nazi Lizards from Dry Space. It included the latest final battle episodes, and he had already read it before the show, I guess. Just what we needed, but he indicated that it was better than the TV version. mike k ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 84 9:58:58-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!clyde!watmath!utzoo!kcarroll @ From: Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Invasion of the Space Nazis, the final battle Ahem. If any alien race wanted a vast quantity of water from our solar system, it'd be >much< easier to get it from the rings of Saturn, or the moons of Jupiter, than to descend deep into the earth's gravity well, suck up >liquid< water (rather than solid ice), and haul it all back up out of the gravity well. Don't you think? Finding flaws with "V" is like shooting fish in a barrel; it's too easy, and hence not much fun. -Kieran A. Carroll ...decvax!utzoo!kcarroll ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 84 4:12:34-PDT (Sat) From: harpo!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Nonsense in V Too much like Star Wars? How about too much like Star Trek The Motion ''Picture'' ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 84 10:11:37-PDT (Mon) From: ihnp4!iwpba!amigo @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Why TV Writers Dont Care About Technical Accuracy Michael Wahrman says: >> TV writers (producers and directors) have a model of the >> viewer that watches their work. They believe that the >> viewer (1) doesn't care about accuracy, (2) doesn't care >> about consistancy, (3) is basically very stupid and (4) >> needs to have everything explained many times and (5) needs >> a lot of action or suspense on a regular basis especially >> right before a commercial or the channel will be switched. In other words, as H. L. Mencken put it so well: "No one ever when broke underestimating the taste of the American public." That probably also goes for the intelligence of American public as well. John Hobson AT&T Bell Labs--Naperville, IL ihnp4!iwpba!amigo (NOTE TEMPORARY MACHINE) ------------------------------ Date: 17 May 84 09:57:41 EDT From: Saul Subject: Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 3 Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net Episode 3 - The Singularans (Arnold Lint and the crew of the Infinity are trying to decide what to do now that they are being faced by the deadly Singularans.) Xaphod: Oh wow, just when we got past the Flamers, we have to run into the 'Singles'. The Illogical drive won't work this time. Rod: No, and neither will evasive actions. They all talk that way! Gillian: What will we do then? Arnold Lint: I'll tell you . . . we're all going to die. Xaphod: Shut your cake-hole! Martin: I tried to tell you this trip would be a real downer, but would you listen? Rod: Quiet! Xaphod: I guess we should see what they want. (Xaphod switches on the two way video telecommunicator and RadaRange. The face of the Singularan captain appears on the screen. He is a normal human wearing a T-shirt which says: "Have you ever really listened to Manilow?" He is also sporting glow in the dark pants and 10 pounds of silver and gold chains arount his neck.) Singularan: Hey, like I'm Dirk Thawtphull. We were cruising by and saw your node. Interested in some meaningful relationships, free from the moral depravity that otherwise infects the net. Xaphod: Well, I kind of like depravity. Rod: Yah, me too. Dirk: Wow, you'd love our S & M encounter group then, fershure! Arnold Lint: Your what? Dirk: S & M encounter group. We get together twice a week and exchange recipes and beatings. Arnold Lint: How could a group like that command such a strong node? Xaphod: Well, the sudden popularity of Jogging induced widespread adoption of the principles of Single-ism. The subsequent rise of the sport of 'Joggering' reduced the numbers of Singularans to normal size. It appears that they may be making a come back though. [The "Hitch Hikers Guide to the Net" defines 'Joggering' as a sport originated in Australia to combat the sudden drop in productivity caused by having everybody jogging. Australian champion Bruce Karnage describes the sport: "Well, there is a different way of catching both male and female joggers. If it's a male, you flush him out into the open with cigarette smoke, then chase him down in your 4 x 4 Land Rover. When he's tired, bump him with the fender to stun him momentarily. Then get out and with your driver pick him up by all fours and run him head-first into the side of the truck. If it's a female, bait a likely spot with designer jogging wear and then wait for a flock to arrive. When one becomes interested, sneak up behind her, very quietly. Then when you are about two feet away, and you can see the sun dancing on her richly tanned flesh caressing her well toned figure into a visual symphony of delight, split her skull with a handy two-by-four. It's a lovely sport!" The sport later became known as 'Walkmaning'.] Rod: We were on our way to Netrothea to pick up some ... uh ... fuel, yah that's it. Dirk: Well, we've got plenty of fuel, come on over and we'll let you have it. Xaphod: No, it's OK. Dirk: I insist! (The Singularan ship lets out a pink and purple polka-dot ray that engulfs the Infinity. Arnold Lint and company find themselves in a room on the Singularan ship. It is decorated right out off the floor of a K-Mart. K-Tel's "Feelings" album is playing "You light up my existence" in the background, on the ceiling is a gigantic mirror, and in one corner is a gigantic mood-bean-bag chair.) Gillian: How awful! Martin: Actually, I kind of like it, in a depressing sort of way. Rod: Quiet. Arnold Lint: Where are we. Dirk: You're aboard the Singularan vessel "Sincerity". You will remain here until you learn to develop meaningful relationships over the Net. Meaningful relationships based on honesty, truth, and having nothing to do with physical appearance. Relationships which will grow as you and your partner, or partners, share, or don't share, things you have, or don't have, in common. You will learn how to have every other sentence include the words 'special' or 'meaningful relationship'. Xaphod: If he says "meaningful relationship" once more I'll have to pray to the porcelain buddha. Rod: Sickening, isn't it. Dirk: Right, enough of this. Wait here and we'll start programming you for meaningful relationships. (Xaphod bends over a nearby table and vomits, the 12" CRT on his shoulder starts scrolling "Uuuggghhh") Gillian: What did you mean about "programming" us? Dirk: We'll have to make you compatible with the environment and take away all your inhibitions when discussing your personal life on the Net. You'll be subjected to countless sessions watching repeats of "The Dating Game", "The Newlywed Game", and "Celebrity Wife Swapping". And that's only Stage 1! [The "Hitch Hikers Guide to the Net" points out that the three old earth TV shows just mentioned were actually the basis for a huge inter-conglomerate stock monopolizing scheme started by The Phone Company. The questions asked on these shows were actually coded messages issued by The Phone Company to the conglomerates it was working with. These messages told the associated conglomerates about which stocks to buy based on information gained by The Phone Company by listening in on the phones of important companies. The client corporations paid The Phone Company 1 million dollars for each such message. The seemingly idiotic contestants were, more often than not, government agents trying to break The Phone Company's code. Chuck Barris, the originator of the shows, was later found to be a financial genius, rivaled only by Howard Hughes.] Rod: We gotta get put of here! Xaphod: Yah. Rod: You know what really gets Singularans put off? Rudeness and crudeness! Arnold Lint: What? Rod: Rudeness, if we act real crude and rude, they'll beg us to leave! Xaphod: Great, let's try it! (Dirk returns with three gorgeous women and one well built female model andriod.) Rod: (To the first girl) Wow, look at that pair! Xaphod: (To the second girl) That's a lovely grab! Rod: (To the third girl) OK love, drop 'em! Martin: (To the female android) I wave my private parts toward approximate vector coordinates. Gillian: (To Dirk) Say Dirk, if you get some Saran-Wrap and chicken wire, I'll get the honey and the plunger. Dirk: Get out of here you disgusting filthly maladjusted perverts! (The three women and one andriod exit with great haste. The crew of the Infinity is beamed back to their node.) Dirk: Good riddens. Put on the flip side of "Feelings" and pass the cheese dip. It's their loss, for only we know what true meaningful relationships are. Only we know the feeling of wholeness that comes from showing, or not showing, what one feels, or doesn't feel, with someone special we care about. We aren't hung up on physical things, we are spiritualists. At least, that's what we tell everyone else. Xaphod: Right, now on to Netrothea, nothing can stop us now. ******************** End Of Part 3 ******************** Will the crew of the Infinity reach Netrothea, or will Nothing stop them? For the answers to this, and other useless questions . . . Tune in next time . . . same Net-time . . . same Net-channel. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 17-May SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #91 *** EOOH *** Date: 17 May 84 1214-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #91 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 17 May 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 91 Today's Topics: Films - Star Trek (2 msgs), Television - V: The Final Battle (8 msgs), Miscellaneous - Hitch hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 4 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue 15 May 84 19:19:35-EDT From: Vince Fuller Subject: Re: SW-TWOK, Spock's death, etc. Don't any of you remember "The Changeling"? As I recall, it was possible to use the transporter to dematerialize someone and then transport them out into space without bothering to send all of the little bits in the same direction. Wasn't there some comment in "The Changeling" about "Energize, maximum dispersion" or something like that? As I recall, then beamed Nomad out into space, scattering him all over a wide area. Seems this should have been equally possible with the Genesis torpedo. --Vince ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 84 12:01:45-PDT (Mon) From: ihnp4!ihlts!rjnoe @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Spock didn't have to die... > recall the episode "Wolf in the Fold"... The entity . . . > body is then sedated and placed in the transporter and > beamed out into space at the widest possible angle! Given > that our only source of information about the Enterprise is > the series and previous movies, the genesis machine could > have been dispersed. > Randall S. Becker Well, Kirk did say to activate the transporter, "deep space . . . widest angle of dispersion" but nowhere is it really made plain that the body was dispersed. Remember that the entity could not be killed but would float in space, unable to do harm, until it EVENTUALLY died. The sedated body was only used as a "container" for the entity until they could get it out of the ship. What happened to the body itself was of no consequence since the entity did not need a body in order to live. It would die whether it was dispersed or not. And the entity could not be affected. No, we have no real evidence to indicate that the body (or the entity) was actually dispersed into separate molecules. Infer all you want, but if our only source of information is to be the TV episodes and movies, we cannot reasonably establish that the Genesis device could have been dispersed without harming the Enterprise. Roger Noe ihnp4!ihlts!rjnoe ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 84 16:35:39-PDT (Sat) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!whuxle!mp @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Invasion of the Space Nazis, the final battle None of the aliens I know ever came to earth JUST to get water. The ones in ``V'' also wanted to raise human cattle to ship back to their local fast-food places, and in general their junket to earth provided an excuse to wield power over a less-advanced race. In ``The Man Who Fell To Earth'', David Bowie came here not only to get water, but to watch TV as well. This subject is getting rather dry (sorry). Do yourself a favor and don't analyze these movies' scientific facts so critically. Not to say that V was good. There were so many ripoffs from Star Wars, Star Trek, War of the Worlds and other movies that I expected to see Robbie The Robot or a computer that could talk and read lips. You know, with a little more effort, V could have been turned into a reasonably humorous 2-hour parody of famous sf films. Mark ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 84 11:34:17-PDT (Sun) From: decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!gds @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Invasion of the Space Nazis, the final battle [water] And If the "Visitors" were just meanies who enjoy destroying inhabated worlds, etc. then why didn't they just take the polar ice caps, which would take less room, if they kept it around 32 degrees F. Plus, they also needed humes for food (Here mousie!...) The Earthlings wouldn't have let them take the polar ice caps either, because lack of them would cause an imbalance in Earth's climate, resulting in worldwide modified weather patterns, dropping of the ocean levels, etc... Be ye moby, for I am moby. Greg Skinner (gregbo) {decvax!genrad, eagle!mit-vax, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gds Joy is in the ears that hear. ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 84 18:38:42-PDT (Sun) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!clyde!watmath!utzoo!utcsrgv!randy From: @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Subtle Space Nazi Flaw I realize that many viewers do not care about the accuracy of a SF flic on network television, but few can accept a contradition to one of the premises of that flic. As we all know the Space Nazi Lizards were left handed. Those humans who were captured and converted (whatever that means), started using their left hands as well. Please offer some justification for ALL of the main characters using their RIGHT hands to fire weapons. Further, Diana always fired first at the victims shoulder. Not the left but invariably the RIGHT one! I am prepared to accept many violation of current known laws of physics by Hollywood movie makers (they don't know better). But this flic has gone too far! Randall S. Becker Usenet: {dalcs,dciem,garfield,musocs,qucis,sask,titan, trigraph,ubc-vision,utzoo,watmath,allegra,cornell, decvax,decwrl,ihnp4,uw-beaver}!utcsrgv!randy CSNET: randy@Toronto ARPA: randy%Toronto@CSNet-Relay ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 15 May 1984 07:52:41-PDT From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Brendan E. Boelke) Subject: V >> 1. There is a planet of amphibious(?) beings which is literally >> "drying" up, for any number of reasons.... I don't believe they ever said the planet was 'drying up'. I think the contention was that they had polluted/abused their planets resources to the ultimate. Also, I conveniently decided to myself that the main reason for the Visit was not the water, but the food. If we pollute our world to the point were we don't have any clean water, and if we don't die from thirst, we'll surely die from hunger. I think they were out on a food hunting party, and the water was secondary. BTW, the book V, which I read before seeing ANY of the series (I totally missed it last year), has a much more viable ending, and some interesting dialogue that was not in the movie (the book is based on the script, and in most places, 'is' the script). /BEB ARPA: ECG.BEB@DEC-MARLBORO ENET: GIGI::BRENDAN ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 84 11:16:58 PDT (Tuesday) From: Isdale.ES@XEROX.ARPA Subject: V "The Final Insult" It seems that the inconsistent, illogical plot, mediocre acting, extremely bad model/matte shots, and the scores of other defects in this product of hollywood brain rot was very appealing to the average american TV idiot. The ratings it recieved have justified the beliefs of the writers and producers. These creatures are now preparing a full scale assault on the minds of their victims. They are making "V" into a series for the Fall! (Source: One of the morning network news shows) Eris Deliver Us! ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 84 15:17:01-PDT (Sun) From: ihnp4!pegasus!naiman @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Ribbing of American Government in "V" Despite everything I still enjoyed V: The Final Battle. Did anyone notice when all the ships had flown off but one, some newscaster said that Washington was convening later that afternoon to discuss it ? I thought that was great and was on the floor laughing (my wife thinks I have a weird sense of humor, too). ==> Ephrayim J. Naiman @ AT&T Information Systems Laboratories (201) 576-6259 Paths: [ihnp4, allegra, ...]!pegasus!naiman ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 84 12:10:58-PDT (Mon) From: ihnp4!houxm!hou2f!5113jls @ Ucb-Vax Subject: V the TV series this Fall Well its official, "V" will be a regular TV series on fridays nights at 8 pm on NBC. This will put them up against the "Dukes of Hazzards". Actually I welcome this. I would rather have a little (bad?) SF than a three police car crash any day. (Please Uncle Jessie, I can't take it any more. Stay tuned next week when Bo and Luke try to stop Boss Hogg from eating Hazzard County. Finger lick'n good.) J Schantz - BCR ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 84 11:06:37-PDT (Mon) From: ihnp4!houxm!houxz!disc @ Ucb-Vax Subject: "The Final Fiasco"--ambidextrous aliens? > As we all know the Space Nazi Lizards were left handed. Those > humans who were captured and converted (whatever that means), > started using their left hands as well. Please offer some > justification for ALL of the main characters using their RIGHT > hands to fire weapons. Further, Diana always fired first at the > victims shoulder. Not the left but invariably the RIGHT one! I did not see "V" the first time around, but I did see the "Final Fiasco" and read the novelization by A. C. Crispin. Nowhere did I see anything to indicate the ALIENS where left-handed--only those HUMANS who were "converted" were left-handed (and only because they were RIGHT-HANDED before the conversion). According to the book, during the conversion process, there was some sort of "right/left brain reversal" (Holy Corpus Callosum, Batman!) which apparently got the poor victims to thinking backwards (or is that sideways?). The handedness switch was an incidental development; or at most one which merely indicated the completion of the process. It seems the writers of the screenplay are as bad at their neural science as their biology, astrophysics, ecology, behavioral science, immunology, etc., etc., ad infinitum. I don't blame Crispin for this; he just had the impossible job of making all these things believable--an unenviable position!! "There's no one in space....to hear you wretch" SJBerry ------------------------------ Date: 17 May 84 09:58:46 EDT From: Saul Subject: Hitch hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 4 Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net Episode 4 - E.C. (The Extra Commercial) (Arnold Lint and the crew of the Infinity are on their way to Netrothea. They have successfully escaped both the Flamers and the Singles.) Xaphod: How much longer till we reach Netrothea? Martin: Too soon. Rod: Quiet! Gillian: I can't wait to get there! Arnold Lint: I'm just glad we're still in one piece. Martin: It doesn't take much to make you happy, does it? (All of a sudden, a blinding light fills the bridge of the Infinity. When the light fades, a small, sickeningly adorable creature is revealed. He is wearing a cap which says "I'm cute, buy me!") Gillian: What's that? Xaphod: That's E.C. - the Extra Commercial! Arnold Lint: The what? Rod: The Extra Commercial. The most commercialized being since Santa Claus! ["The Hitch Hikers Guide to the Net" lists Santa Claus as a being from Pluto who suffered severe brain damage when his space ship crashed on earth. Every year the silly old twit tries to fly an old sleigh and a flock of equally stupid reindeer back to Pluto. Unfortunately, his reverse gravity modulator is not 100 percent so he never quite gets out of earth's orbit. This is just as well as the jerk lost all his deep space gear. Many people on earth have mistaken the boxes of Kentucky Fried Chicken he carries on his unlikely space craft (as rations for the trip to Pluto) for presents to be distributed to children. In actuality, the only reason Fred Glarn (his real name) ever climbs down chimneys is because he is totally wasted on Selurian Brandy and he is merely looking for a likely spot to sleep it off. (Why else would his nose always be red?).] Xaphod: I've never met E.C. before, I always though he was just some massive advertising ploy. Gillian: (To E.C.) Hello, I'm Gillian. E.C.: (In a heavy New York - Jewish accent) Oy vey, vhat a trip. Say goylie, you're cute. Xaphod: Huh? E.C.: Don't call me E.C., it's a meshugina name. My real name is Phil Moskowitz. Arnold Lint: Phil Moskowitz? Phil: Yes!, Vhat did you expect - Ricardo Montalban? Rod: You're the Extra Commercial? Phil: Don't laugh, my brother Saul owns Jordache Jeans! ["The Hitch Hikers Guide to the Net" states that the Jordache Jeans Company was actually a very clever marketing ploy by the makers of Preparation H. It was their intention to boost the sales of their rectal paraphenalia by inducing Americans to stuff their glutious maxima into overly confined garments. The ploy did not succeed.] Gillian: What are you doing here? Phil: I'm on my vay to the Net Christmas Special. This year it's being hosted by Johnny Arson and Bud McMolson. Vhen you're a purely commercial item like me, you have to travel a lot. Xaphod: But you're Jewish, what are you doing on a Christmas special? Phil: Believe me, it vasn't my idea. Some people out there actually think I'm Christ reborn. I knew a kid in Brooklyn name Jesus Martinez, but that's as close as I ever got. Anyvay, I'm hot right now in the market, so I go on any show they can get me on. Arnold Lint: That's unbelievable! How'd you get started in the business? Phil: Vell, I tell ya'. One day I'm sitting there, eating a lox on rye, and some movie man comes up to me and says: "I'm gonna make you are star". Next thing I know I'm in some nutso movie vith a bunch of little kids. I hate little kids. No sooner does the movie hit the screens than there are E.C. video games, clothing, silverware, contraceptives, books, posters, and kinky undergarments. You name it and I was on it. Then came the TV shows and all the publicity events - I actually cut the ribbon on the Jimmy Carter Memorial Brothel and Pro Shop! Then I had to appear at the opening of "Nukes are Us" - a store for budding nuclear powers. Xaphod: Wow, thats wild. Phil: Vell, I gotta run. Gillian: Bye! (The bright light once again fills the bridge, it fades and E.C. is gone.) Arnold Lint: That was incredible! Martin: If you say so! Rod: Quiet! Xaphod: Well, we're here . . . Netrothea! Martin: Oh joy and yummies. ******************** End Of Part 4 ******************** What will Arnold Lint and the crew of the Infinity find on Netrothea? For the answer to this spine-tingling question . . . Tune in next time . . . same Net-time . . . same Net-channel. Also, be sure not to miss the BIG NET CHRISTMAS SPECIAL starring Johnny Arson, Bud McMolson, Richard Nixon, Barry Manilow, Richard Simmons, and Teddy the Wonder Lizard. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 18-May SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #92 *** EOOH *** Date: 18 May 84 2117-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #92 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 18 May 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 92 Today's Topics: Films - Obsessive Movies & Faithful Films & High Speed Film, Television - V: The Final Battle, Miscellaneous - Thesis: Telling Stories As They Used To Be & Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 5 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 16 May 84 04:07 EDT From: Bergman.SoftArts@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Obsessive movies Another obsessed film by Herzog is "The Burden of Dreams" about a man obsessed with the need to make a film about a man who drags a riverboat over a mountain... There were *NO* special effects used in Fitzcarraldo. They had to drag *TWO* riverboats over the mountain because the first one smashed on the way down... Generally speaking, making a movie on location in the Amazon river basin is guaranteed to be at least as difficult as whatever the characters in the movie are trying to accomplish. The boat that most of the action in Fitzcarraldo takes place on is now a floating bar/bordello in Iquitos. --mike bergman bergman.softarts@mit-multics ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 17 May 1984 05:28:19-PDT From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (The Stainless Steel Rat) Subject: Faithful films All in all, once one ignores the introduction of the two World Wars as background for the calamitous destruction that followed, the film "The Time Machine" with Rod Taylor was reasonably faithful to Herb's novel. The film was made in 1960. Dick Binder UUCP: amorphous, will figure it out soon ARPA: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 84 10:34:27-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!rdin!perl @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: High Speed film. American television is 30 frames/sec, not 40. I find it hard to believe that you can perceive flicker in movie theaters. I will not flame. I will not flame. I will not flame. I will not flame. I will not flame. I will not flame. I will not flame. I will not flame. I will not flame. I will not flame. Robert Perlberg Resource Dynamics Inc. New York philabs!rdin!perl ------------------------------ Date: 16 May 1984 11:26:52 PDT From: CARROLL@USC-ISIB Subject: "V" How come when the aliens take off their masks, their heads get bigger? One might think they were really humans in lizard masks. I guess people in the TV world don't notice such things. ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 14 May 1984 10:44:58-PDT From: lewis%spider.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Suford Lewis) Subject: Thesis: SF gets us back to telling stories as they used to Subject: be I also majored in English in college. (After I discovered that I was not cut out for physics.) I, however, had already been reading SF for 11 or 12 years at that point, so perhaps I was "immunized" against all the "Oh Doomy Gloom" stuff. I also discovered that most of what we call art and literature and assume are universal and forever, are REALLY recent and relatively parochial. The novel was only invented a few hundred years ago. "Literature" itself is a minor branch of story-telling. More importantly, the idea that contemporary reality was a suitable subject for art was a unique invention that NO other culture has made. Look at any other time and place and what are the stories about? They may have historical significance, but what they are ABOUT is the structure of the world and how that culture fits into it. They are REINTERPRETATIONS of events. They are consciously symbolic. The phrases "word for word" and "what really happened" don't mean the same thing in all cultures. Even the idea of history, as an UNreinterpreted, unelaborated account of events was invented only once (by a Greek about 1200 years ago). No other culture considers REALISM an art form. (I have a whole schtick about REALISM and the absurdity of a literal interpretation of the Bible, that I will leave out here.) Art forms as diverse as Polynesian songs, Norse eddas, the epic of Gilgamesh and the Chinese opera all talk about what it means to be a hero, what the proper attitude is towards the universe (including all its various spirits and forces), what is the proper way to act. Usually there is also a healthy helping of "howcome WE are so terrific" propaganda thrown in. These old forms were performed rather than written. They were fun rather than "arty". They EXPLAINED - they were sugar-coated with plenty of action and dirty jokes - but they served the cultural values of their people, religious and political. There is evidence that the bible comes from exactly this sort of tradition. Shakespeare did this kind of chronicle - most people are familiar with his picture of Richard the Third and don't even suspect that it is mostly lies and pro-Tudor propaganda. Depending on your cynicism, you could view all these old epics - including virtually everything composed before 1600 and quite a bit done after that - as inspired attempts to understand the world and the place of human-kind in it, or as self-serving rationalization of the status-quo by those who made their living by pleasing kings and priests. I tend not to be too cynical about them (any more than I am about the political intent of George Lucas' Star Wars series) because all these compositions had to be popular to survive. They were chanted or sung, then MUCH later, someone wrote them down. The epic of Beowulf was written down by a priest in the 8th century, but took place in prechristian Denmark (around 500 years before). In the original it begins with the line: HWAET! Wae Gar-Dena Hwaet being the closest the transcriber could come to the long shrill whistle that was the opening of a real recitation in the midst of a boistrous feast. A perfectly accurate translation of "HWAET!" would be "HEY! All you shut up and listen!" Real art and literature are supposed to speak to EVERYBODY about the nature of the human condition. That's what it used to do. It was all intertwined with religion and politics and no one expected anything different. After all, how could one talk about being human without talking about right and wrong, strength (what was once called virtue) and weakness? What do we have in our culture NOW that does this kind of thing? TV and movies. Comics and popular music. And the writing that came out of the "pulp" genres of the 20's and 30's: SF, detective and romance. There is a lot of junk of course, but Sturgeon's law applies. It is very unlikely that we have even the top 10% of the old oral tradition, after all. Pick up any adventure comic. Good against evil. Protagonist with lots of problems, personal and otherwise, moral choices that have to be made. The comics, the TV soaps, all their writers are conscious of the morality of what they are doing. Bad guys have to be unhappy, good guys have to keep on being good, even if they are unhappy, too. Random people whom the good guys meet, help them because they are nicer than the bad guys. There is a lot of pro-democracy, pro-liberal propaganda about justice and law. We take it so much for granted, we hardly notice. Even if a story tells about injustice, the whole premise is that that is not the way it is supposed to be. You wouldn't believe the places that moral consciousness raises its head. I was flabbergasted to note that in "The Barbie Sticker Book" sweet, feminine, fashionable Barbie is off to spray the seal pups green! (My daughter tells me the "her" Barbie is "in computers" and goes to work and Ken takes care of the house.) There is a lot to "popular media". However banally it may be treated, the real technological dilemmas are being examined among all the chaff of cute robots and essentially magical devices. After all, the question really is: given magical powers, what is the right thing to do?. I agree with Duntemann the TWO CULTURES are being welded back together again. In a hundred years what will be the curiosity will be why they ever split apart. SF will be the obvious genre of all "serious artists". SF gets us back to the old epic scale. The old forms talked about all the universe that was known to the religious and political perceptions of their cultures. Now we need a form that can talk about all the universe that is known to our religious, political and scientific perceptions. A lot of artists still talk in gibberish in the SF idiom, because their perceptions do not reach very far and they are mostly afraid of science. I have a lot of hope that this will get better. Not so much that I think people will understand science much better, but that the esthetics of epic demand a wholistic vision. The acknowledged masters of SF are not without passion. Artists that I respect are not without rationality. Kipling and T.S. Eliot had their rationality and passion together, the rest of the "main stream" will eventually get all their stuff together, too. ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 84 21:01:05 EDT From: Saul Subject: Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 5 Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net Episode 5 - Netrothea (The Infinity is about to land on Netrothea. It is here that Xaphod hopes to find a wealth of data to sell back to the Net for immense profits.) Rod: Okay Martin, let's land. Martin: Do we have to? Xaphod: Yes! Martin: Very well. Gillian: Cheer up Martin, maybe you'll meet a nice lady android. Wouldn't that be nice. Martin: Not really. Arnold Lint: How 'bout a nice male android? Martin: That's right more abuse, aren't things bad enough already? Besides, how can an android be homosexual? Come to think of it, we can't be heterosexual either! How dreadful. Rod: Quiet, we've landed. Xaphod: How fantastic! Gillian: How wonderful. Martin: How awful. All: Oh shut up! Xaphod: Right, lets go! (The door to the Infinity opens to reveal the landscape of Netrothea. It is indeed a strange landscape. The ground has the consistency of a partially frozen waterbed covered with rich Corinthian leather. Flames spring forth from the soil in primordial splendor, displaying brilliant patterns of red and green. Off in the distance, great orange hills reflect the light of the purple sun. Polka-dotted polygram clouds move swiftly in uneven patterns across the blue and grey striped sky. The hills seemed to have been polished by the winds of time into huge reflective mounds which make light dance on the valleys below. Great forests of trees are off to the right. The trees are only 4 feet tall, but 20 feet wide. Stainless steel leaves hang from their bubble gum branches as pink and black steam spews from their exposed roots. The air stings with the scent of stale oysters and rotting, 3 day old, MacDougals BigMuck's. There is still no sign of civilization. The 12" CRT on Xaphod's shoulder starts up: "This is David Halfmind. Tomorrow on 'Good Morning Idiots', we'll discuss herpes, the death penalty, and aerobics at the office. We'll also be talking with Yassir Arrafat about fashions for hot climates . In addition, we'll have some wonderful holiday recipes from the Ayatollah Khomieni. Also, don't miss our special feature, 'A trip to the Police Morgue', which we'll show right after the weather report."] Gillian: Ugh, how awful. Martin: Thats what I keep telling you. Xaphod: Wow, what a great place for a vacation. Arnold Lint: Yah, if you enjoy misery. ["The Hitch Hikers Guide to the Net" lists Netrothea as being in the top 10 places frequented by masochists. The wretched climate and unfriendly people (who used to inhabit the place) made Netrothea about as much fun as a spinal tap performed with a boat hook. Netrothea's popularity waned as more and more places of vastly inferior quality were either discovered or created. When these new, modern, haunts-for-the-very-sick hit the market, old establishments (like Netrothea) were doomed. The Netrothean government tried to boost tourist trade by offering 'Club Mud' vacations to Netrothea's famous 'Bile Bog', but it was to no avail.] Martin: I can't even enjoy misery, I hate this place too. Rod: Quiet! Xaphod: Lets go over there. (Arnold Lint and crew make their way around the 20 foot wide trees, past the 40 foot tall monolith, under the stopwatch draped over the towel rack, and over the 10 foot diameter pimple. They finally arrive at a door set into the ground. A stuffed penguin stands by the door, on it's head is a button labeled "Ring for Verbal Abuse". Etched into the door are the words: "X = 101010 Copyrighted by Deep Thought, so bug off".) Arnold Lint: One-Zero-One-Zero-One-Zero? What does it mean? Xaphod: I don't know? Gillian: Should we press the button? Rod: Might as well. Xaphod: (Trying to open the door) Yah, the door's locked anyway. Arnold, why don't YOU press the button. Arnold Lint: Thank you very much, I think not. Martin: All right, I'll do it. (Martin presses the button, the door flies open, and a man pops out to great the Infinity crew. He is dressed in a business suit and sports a "Stupidity is it's own reward" button on his jacket.) Man: Well, what do you want you smelly, squirming insignificant vermin? Rod: We wanted to get in the door . . . who are you? Man: Oh, I'm Flarg Brittashik, awfully nice to meet you. Xaphod: (Confused) You're names' what? Flarg: FLARG BRITTASHIK, what are deaf as well as stupid? What a bunch of mindless, horrific oafs! Arnold Lint: Look you, just let us in the door and then push off!! Flarg: Why didn't you say so, follow me. (Flarg descends down the stairs, the rest follow. The stairs form a spiral, with a half-gainer twist, descending at an incredible rate to the interior of Netrothea. The stairway is lit by the glow from halibut fished out of the sea around the nearby nuclear power plant.) Rod: Where are we going? Flarg: WHERE ARE WE GOING?! What a perfectly stupid question. We're obviously going down you sickening, malodorous pervert! Gillian: Do you realize that you're insulting us, and then the next moment being polite to us? Flarg: Oh, am I? I hadn't noticed. Rod: Well it's bloody anoying, mate. Flarg: Well, tough rocko's if I do, you wiper of other people's behinds! [The act of wiping other peoples behinds, according to "The Hitch Hikers Guide to the Net", was once considered a quite honorable profession in certain areas of the Net. In fact, many of the old regimes went so far as to have Royal Behind Wipers (or RBW's for those readers used to TLA's - three letter acronyms) whose sole task it was to walk around behind his or her appointed monarch with toilet paper in hand and perform the specified duty. Although this may seem an unpopular job, the pay was quite good. As such, positions as Royal 'Pooper Scoopers' were often granted based on tournaments. These tournaments resembled the earth's olympics except for two facets. First, all events (actually, they only lasted for one event) were fought to the death. And second, any event thought up had to envolve the creative use of human excrement. ] Martin: You know, I would have thought any place as awful as this might have been amusing to me. But it's just as bad as the rest of the Net. Good thing I'm just an android and don't have to ponder the reasons why the Net is as it is. I can just be content knowing that it can only get worse. Xaphod: One more word out of you, and I'll go at your memory banks with a chainsaw!!! ******************** End Of Part 5 ******************** What will Arnold Lint and the crew of the Infinity find in Netrothea? Will Flarg Brittashik insult them to distraction? Or are the already distracted? Will Xaphod end up doing a lumberjack-job on Martin's memory banks? In the off chance of being told the answers to these, and other, ad-libbed questions . . . Tune in next time . . . same Net-time . . . same Net-channel. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 18-May SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #93 *** EOOH *** Date: 18 May 84 2131-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #93 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 18 May 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 93 Today's Topics: Books - Dewdney (3 msgs) & Kurland & SF Best Sellers, Films - Star Trek, Television - V: The Final Battle (4 msgs), Miscellaneous - Troubled Writer & Invention of "Sci-Fi" & How to Get Rich With a Time Machine ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 16 May 84 13:54:36 EDT From: Ron Natalie Subject: Underground in flatland It would seem to me that worlds in the planiverse would be circles. Underground would mean dug into the circle. -Ron ------------------------------ Date: 17 May 1984 09:07-EST From: David.Anderson@CMU-CS-G.ARPA Subject: Re: underground in 2D? To: ihnp4!mit-eddie!gds@ucb-vax Think of the entire Planiverse as being a plane (let's stick to Euclidean geometry, although the book doesn't). The stars and planets within this universe are circular, and HAVE AN INTERIOR. "Underground" means "beneath the surface" of the planet. (You probably were thinking that the inhabitants of the Planiverse move freely in a plane, as in Flatland -- but here they are bound by gravity (not inverse square, but simply inversely proportional) to the surface of a planet.) ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 84 21:20:03-PDT (Mon) From: decvax!cca!ima!ism780!jim @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: review of 'The Planiverse' You must be joking, or TV has destroyed your mind. Just ask the nearest kindergarten student to draw you a picture of a house, then ask her to put it underground. ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 16 May 1984 12:29-PDT Subject: Re: Kurland title request From: jim@Rand-Unix The Aaron Burr book by Michael Kurland is "The Whenabouts of Burr". Great fun, alternate universes, hijacked Constitution (or is it?), and so on. Kurland also wrote "Tomorrow Knight", about future gladiator/mercenary types, which is pretty good. ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 84 9:39:32-PDT (Tue) From: hplabs!saturn!ishizaki @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: SF best sellers I think the book by Marion Zimmer Bradley to make the best-sellers' list was "The Mists of Avalon". also, Anne McCaffrey's "The White Dragon" made the best-sellers' list. audrey ishizaki HPlabs Palo Alto, CA 415-857-5903 ------------------------------ Date: 16 May 1984 11:31:37 PDT From: CARROLL@USC-ISIB Subject: S.T.II and transporter If they could get the Genesis device into a transporter beam, they could just send it into space at "maximum dispersion" of the atoms, just as they did the Jack-the-Ripper creature in the episode "Wolf in the Fold". Once they get something into a beam, they can do lots of things to it, like hold it in stasis for a while, or reassemble it "wrong". We had a little discussion a while back on transporter capabilities/limitations. ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 84 7:57:42-PDT (Mon) From: harpo!ulysses!mhuxl!abnjh!cbspt002 @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Invasion of the Space Nazis, the final battle Much has been said about the enema that V gave to physics, how about the screw that the writers get in on biology/anthropology? To wit: - In the first mini-series, Willy rescues a worker from a vat of liquid nitrogen or the like. I thought that lizard-likes lose big when the temp drops. Likewise why did the resistance ever fight the aliens during the day? Lizards don't function well at night - which is why our evolutionary ancestors prevailed. - A human being impregnated by another species? Did Russia have have satyr princes as a result of Catherine the Great's fetishes? Come on now... - The bird and marsupial population of the Earth is so much greater than that of homo-sapiens, why did the visitors bother with us? Obviously they prefer birds and mice (Diana munches on budgies - not ladyfingers/ The teen Visitor prefered mouse-ies to the wino, etc.) more than humans. Granted we might be easier to catch... - The Visitors dropping like flies from inhaling a bacteria? Most of their skin was covered - why not just break out the bio-hazard gas-masks? - Julie is pretty active for someone with a congenital heart defect. We are told about this during her Disco brainwashing. Speaking of which, why bother at all with brainwashing. Why not just mold a body suit for a Visitor of correct height and build in the image of the influential person? - Did you catch a glimpse at Visitor writing? Not english like at all...why did they use what looked like QWERTY kybds? (Remember the PC that Diana was using to teach Elizabeth. Looked like an IBM-PCjr...). V: The Final Crusade - The father goes back to the Visitor's home planet and converts them all. They come back wearing Jimmy Swaggart masks........ M Kenig ATT-IS (last word on V for a while - I promise) Piscataway NJ ..!abjnh!cbspt002 ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 84 8:22:25-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!brl-tgr!brl-vgr!wmartin @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Yet more on V To beat a dead horse even further, we had a discussion here about "V" regarding what the writers (I use the word loosely) COULD have done with the [admittedly incredible] idea of the cross-racial children, instead of the rather weak and sloppy ending they did come up with. My idea: Both children live. The little girl turns out to have all the nasty and evil qualities of the aliens' psyches, is a quisling turncoat traitor, and helps the Visitors in their malevolent missions. (The story would continue over years beyond the birth, of course, and the children would grow at a more normal pace, not the silly speeded-up situation that was used.) The reptile creature remains nasty-looking, but has all the good qualities that can be found in humans, a veritable saint in fact. He helps the rebels, maybe has psychic powers, etc. The idea of a colleague: Ignoring the reptile child for now, and concentrating on the girl. She grows up to be a chameleon, able to shift her shape into a reptile or human at will. She forms a bridge between the species. Either of those ideas would have improved the ending of "V" immensely, and also provided ample opportunities for spinoffs ("I Married A Reptile", "Father Sssss", etc.) and sequels ("The Return Of V", "Son of V", "Beneath the Planet of the Vs", etc.). Where do I go to pick up my check? Will ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 84 12:13:26-PDT (Tue) From: harpo!ulysses!mhuxl!mhuxj!presley @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Yet more on V (and sequels) How about: I Was a Teenage Reptile National Lampoon's "V"acation "V" - the Ultimate Battle "V" - the Penultimate Battle (prequels) "V" - the Antepenultimate Battle Monsanto's repTiles for Fashionable Floors Joe Presley (mhuxj!presley, ihnp4!j.presley) ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 84 10:01:29-PDT (Mon) From: decvax!ittvax!bunker!max @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Subtle Space Nazi Flaw One justification for the right-handed shooting in "V"--if you're a decent shot, your handedness is determined by your eyes, not how you write. A good target instructor will determine which is eye is dominant and have the student use that eye for aiming. If your right eye is dominant, you'll shoot right-handed, even if you're a leftie otherwise (I'm a case in point.) Note that eye dominance is not a matter of which has clearer vision, it has to do with how your brain interprets input. A quick test is to use a finger to point at some small distant object as naturally as possible, then, without moving, look with only one eye, then the other. You will see that for one eye, the finger is smack on top of the object, and for the other it is offset due to parallax. The first is your dominant. Max Hyre (Somewhere in the vicinity of decvax!ittvax!bunker!max) ~v (^ Where, oh where has my vi gone?) P.S.: Maybe shooting at right shoulders is just a case of stupidity.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue 15 May 84 11:25:14-PDT From: CAIN@SRI-AI.ARPA Subject: Troubled writer I must respond to Jeff Duntemann's BRIDGE OVER TROUBLED WRITERS message. If it was facetious, then please excuse my gullibility and allow me to make a fool of myself. However, if it was seriously intended, then I can't help myself. First, the statement: > About a hundred years ago, physics got sufficiently > complicated so that nonspecialists had a hard time > following it. Human culture split in two at that point. > Science took one fork; *art* and *literature* took > another. Mankind's chief concern (after the immediate problems of simple survival were worked out) has always been to try to explain the universe. Naturally, there have been (and are) as many different ideas and theories as there are creative individuals, and I'll wager most of those were complicated. Name any domain of activity (i.e. alchemy, herbal medicine, computers, motorcycles). There will be specialists in each as well as nonspecialists. I happen to be a specialist in two of the examples and a nonspecialist in the others. The second (I think, confused) point of that quotation is that "physics", "art", "science", and "literature" are autonomous entities existing apart from mankind. They are not. They are better defined as ways of thinking or ways of interacting with the world. Nor are they mutually exclusive. Granted, some people tend to specialize in one to the exclusion of another, but there is nothing inherent to cause this. Therefore, in considering the above two paragraphs, I think it is clear that I disagree that "science (physics) split human culture". It is a double non sequitur. Rather, scientific thinking proved to be an effective tool which mankind could wield to bring about change. Hence, the "split", if you wish to say there is one, comes more from the power that scientific thinking permits. As change occurs (and accelerates), those nonspecialists in scientific thinking have less and less voice in the change, and for good reason feel that they are being overwhelmed by a technological monster. The specialists, on the other hand, can continue to bring about change, and can feel good about riding the tide. "Standing on the shoulders of giants" builds a comraderie and forms an institution as solidly as stone blocks make cathedral walls. But the point I want to make (and which I believe Mr. Duntemann overlooks) is that those people most able to bring about change (the scientific specialists) are not necessarily the most broadminded individuals, nor are they the ones most able to decide just what changes ought to be made. They are (by and large) specialists in science (!), not in human worth; not in the nature of the universe. The attitude I hear echoed daily is that science has brought about new ways of looking at the world far and above those held by people as little as 100 years ago (not to mention the primitives in the 1800's). The more I discover about the past, the more I believe (strongly) that it just ain't so. Don't simplify the past. Don't underrate the accomplishments or world views of those who are dead and buried. If you believe that mankind is capable of greatness, then don't dismiss the fact we have realized it before. > As science fiction has matured these past forty years, it > has broadened to include a host of things Uncle Hugo would > have barfed at. And yet is hasn't forgotten that science > and technology are the root shapers of any future we may > yet have. The best of us are producing works of fiction > which are broader in their understanding of the current > state of humanity than all but the very best of mainstream > literature. In another forty years mainstream will have > fallen into its own navel and disappeared, and I won't > miss it. By then SF will have broadened to become all the > literature we need. Bunk. Science and technology are not the salvation of our future. They are tools we can use to make a future, granted, as well as they are the tools which might end it abruptly. The manner in which these tools are used for good or bad will come from somewhere else -- from the most primitive areas of human feelings. They will be used as we want to use them (or as the most powerful among us choose). Science fiction has not matured in forty years, and mainstream is not dead. There are alot of feelings about "what is this book doing calling itself SF?" which demonstrate a continual movement to erect walls to keep SF "pure." It's building a coffin from the inside. If you begin to look at the narrow categories books are being placed in (mystery, romance, SF, fantasy), you will realize that they are constricting creativity. If you write a book which does not fit in an established category, you might as well save yourself the trouble and line your parakeet's cage with the manuscript, because it just won't sell. Granted, the ideas we have seen generated in the last forty years have been nothing less than phenomenal. But there have always been phenomenal ideas. Maturity is measured not by the ideas, but by how well they are materialized in the story and by how consistent they become. In my opinion, SF is rich in ideas and weak in the ability to weave those ideas into something believable. The "fringe" SF books (those difficult to classify as fantasy or SF and which generate alot of debates) are, to me, the freshness that SF needs. So SF will not replace mainstream. How can it? Unless it expands itself, it will stagnate. If it does expand, then it will change, and in so changing might blend with mainstream. I, for one, approve. Let's not build genre ghettoes. ... Ron Cain (cain@sri-ai) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 May 84 21:01:58 edt From: csin!cjh@cca-unix Subject: invention of "sci-fi" Kieran is unfortunately incorrect: Forrest Ackermann invented "sci-fi" as a trendy term to apply to all forms of SF then existent, without implying a judgment. (Of course, some of the things Forry has been involved in strongly imply HE has no judgment.) Right now there is still a substantial section of literate fandom that uses "sci-fi" for anything in the field, and some of them use it deliberately to annoy those whom they see as fannish elitists. Ackermann was also responsible for the names given most SF conventions; he was the first to refer to the first two Worldcons (in New York and Chicago) as "Nycon" and "Chicon" (I don't remember offhand who labeled the third "Denvention"). (Chip Hitchcock) ARPA: CJH@CCA-UNIX usenet: ...{!decvax,!linus,!sri-unix}!cca!csin!cjh War is peace Freedom is slavery Ketchup is a vegetable ------------------------------ Date: 16 May 1984 12:42-PDT Subject: Re: how to make money with a time machine From: Raymond Bates There are other ways of making money with a time machine. Why bother to "make" or "steal" a fortune when someone will give you one? My idea for making money with a time machine revolves around getting a hold of the fortune that the Czars left in London banks when they were in power. If my memory serves me, the London banks have a huge fortune waiting for someone in the Czar's family to claim it. Of course they were all killed during the Russian Revolution. You could use your time machine to plant evidence that someone is a direct descendant of the Czars, then you could have that person claim the fortune. Or better yet, why not save Anastasia from her execution, make her your ward, announce to the world you have a time machine and claim your fortune. You could get this fortune with very minor manipulations of the past. I am sure that there are other fortunes are waiting. /Ray ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 21-May SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #94 *** EOOH *** Date: 21 May 84 1237-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #94 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 21 May 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 94 Today's Topics: Books - Brin (2 msgs) & Harrison & Hubbard & Spinrad & Zelazny & Sex in SF (2 msgs), Television - V: The Final Battle (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 6 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: allegra!scgvaxd!4ccvax!LESLIE@Berkeley Date: Fri, 18 May 84 00:38:32 edt Subject: Startide Rising For all ye other members of the faithful, the good news is that S.R. won the nebula. Let's see how it fares against The Good Doctor in the Hugo competition. Yours in procrastination (Algebra final? What algebra final?) Leslie ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 84 12:56:41-PDT (Thu) From: teklabs!donch @ Ucb-Vax Subject: David Brin's STARTIDE RISING: unanswered questions My wife and I just finished and thoroughly enjoyed STARTIDE RISING by David Brin. However, he left an enormous number of interesting and crucial items unresolved. For example, (not giving anything away here) who was "Herbie" and the fleet that was found. What happened in the chapter following the end of the book (obviously never written --yet-- but the story line begs for a resolution to the situation at the ending)? If Brin is on the net, or if anyone knows him, please suggest to him a sequel to STARTIDE RISING. He left himself enough meat for a good one. Don Chitwood teklabs/donch Imaging Research Labs Tektronix, Inc. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Feb 84 17:12:00-PST (Thu) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uok!crigney @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Orphaned Response - (nf) Sharon didn't claim that was the plot for _Bill the Galactic Zero_, but for another book by Harrison. Frankly, the plot sounded a lot like Sheckley's _Dimension of Miracles_. My opinion of _DoM_ is very similar to her opinion on the unnamed book. I think Sheckley's short stories are better than his longer works. I enjoyed _Bill_ in a tepid sort of way, but won't reread it, which places it rather low on my list. I did enjoy the Stainless Steel Rat stories, but can't offhand recall any other works by Harrison that I really liked - certainly not Deathworld. Open Question: does the Deathworld series improve, or am I better off cutting my losses after the first book? Carl ..!ctvax!uokvax!uok!crigney ..!duke!uok!crigney ------------------------------ Date: 25 Mar 84 13:25:00-PST (Sun) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Battle Field Earth - (nf) no thanks L. Ron Hubbard (the L. must stand for Ludicrous) Rick Schieve Actually, it stands for Lafayette. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Mar 84 8:13:00-PST (Thu) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uokvax!jmike @ Ucb-Vax Subject: The Void Captain's Tale - (nf) This is a statement (story?) to defend "The Void Captain's Tale" which, in my opinion, is its own best defense. However since it can't be here to speak for itself, I shall attempt the effort. "The Void Captain's Tale" is a story about the ways and mores of a possible future society. To be more exact, this story is the conflict of one man's changing philosophy of life versus that of his society's. This note/response is prompted by a very surprising previous note giving warning to avoid this book. One person claimed the characters in this story to be shallow and therefore uninteresting. However I contend that the author purposely made these characters to be shallow -- *not* a shallowness of the ordinary sense but rather of a sense preprogrammed to create an impression of a society full of decadence and meaningless social ideals. Certainly the plot in this story is shallow! (if you consider it from an adventure book's point of view). But when one looks at the book as it was meant to be seen, one finds an incredibly fascinating interplay of social ideas. This is where the plot lies -- on a level that some people might overlook. Certainly there are some who would find this style uninteresting, but I would hardly call it weak. In reading this book, one is first amazed by the complex yet talented style in which the author writes. Then upon reflection the meaning of the book settles in like the pleasing aftertaste of a fine wine. It is rare that one finds an author *capable* of producing such works of intricate finery and I would warn any reader not to read such a book too fast lest he lose track of the flow, becoming confused or bored. I will give this warning. This book is not for everybody. There will be those who don't understand it and those who have no patience for the written style. But if you are not limited to this catagory, find a copy of "The Void Captain's Tale" and see what you are missing! ------------------------------ From: allegra!scgvaxd!4ccvax!PDUQUETTE@Berkeley Date: Fri, 18 May 84 00:31:41 edt Subject: Zelazny/Dilvish the Damned For those who're interested, Zelazny's book THE CHANGING LAND takes place directly after the stories in DILVISH THE DAMNED. As with DILVISH, it's not Zelazny's most major work, but it's still worth reading. Will Duquette, Claremont CA ------------------------------ Date: 16 May 84 10:07:55-PDT (Wed) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!ritcv!ccivax!abh @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: sf & sex Somehow this reminds me very much of Kilgore trout's predicament - For those of you who've read Vonnegut's God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater and of course Breakfast of the Champions, and Farmer's Venus on the Halfshell. Kilgore - what a concept!!! Andrew ccivax!abh ------------------------------ Date: 16 May 84 9:21:32-PDT (Wed) From: decvax!dartvax!karl @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Blue Sky Fie Although the story is not pornography, or racy, or anything like that, it sort of is. The story being Totenbuch. I forget the author, but it was in Again, Dangerous Visions. Well worth reading... {astrovax,cornell,decvax,colby}!dartvax!karl -- karl@dartmouth ------------------------------ Date: 17 May 1984 12:02-PDT Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #90 From: the tty of Geoffrey S. Goodfellow Two things with respect to "[V]irulence": I conjecture the reason why `they' didn't get their water from the rings of Saturn or the moons of Jupiter is that `they' hadn't mastered the science of fluoridation, and hence, only our precious bodily fluids would do. Did anyone else entertain the thought that some of `them' might be bisexual? (or perhaps TRI?). Various motions and hand swoopings that Diana made over some of the females in the travesty looked to me more like down to earth lust rather than culinary contemplation. g ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 17 May 1984, 13:12-PDT From: Reynolds at RAND-UNIX Subject: talk about being suprised at delivery time I heard that there was a healthy zebra colt born to normal female horse this morning. Nothing bizarre, just a "first", the mare had received an in-vivo implantation of a zebra embryo. The point was to help build up the population of this species of zebra, which is endangered. When I heard the report on the radio, I was reminded of the scene in V where the young girl is rather surprised by what she has given birth to. Can you imagine how the poor horse felt? "Oh, god, its got stripes! Take it away! TAKE IT AWAY!!" -c ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 84 21:02:00 EDT From: Saul Subject: Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 6 Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net Episode 6 (Flarg Brittashik is leading the crew of the Infinity down the contorted stairway toward the interior of Netrothea.) Martin: What an awful place, why do we bother to go on? Xaphod: Quiet! Flarg: Actually, he's right. One of the things we Netrotheans proved was that the Net does not actually exist. It therefore follows that nothing we do really matters at all. Arnold Lint: What? Flarg: Is that all you can say you mindless, facial emation! Rod: What do you mean "we don't exist"? Flarg: Well, first we approached the problem assuming that we were a unique Net. There is none other like us in the entire domain of space, right? Rod: Right . . . Flarg: Well, if we are alone, how do we know we are? Without another Net to tell us we are, we may not be. We could just be the figments of our imaginations. How do you KNOW that that cat over there does in fact have 5 legs? You see it, but what's to say that it is actually there. Do you follow? [******************************************************************** What Flarg Brittashik was pointing out was the famed five-legged cat of Felix Major. The "The Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net" indicates that the myth of the five-legged cat was actually the result of the heavy drinking done on Felix Major. You see, the female of the species on Felix Major is covered with a blue slime which eventually dissolves her mate if contact is maintained for too long. Because of this, the men on Felix Major spend a lot of time in bars discussing the differences between being Kosher and being a Cannibal. They tend to drink an awful lot while discussing this topic. In their usually intoxicated state, it is not difficult to mistake a cat for having a fifth leg if viewed side ways (or as having one eye if viewed from the rear). The "The Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net" also points out that the favorite drink on Felix Major is called the 'Intesto-rout'. It is mixed as follows: Mix equal parts of gin, whiskey, rye, vodka, rum, bourbon, and brandy. Add a cup of beer that has been left in a gym locker for 3 days. To this add 5 Ex-Lax pills, 1 Valium, 2 No-Doz, and half a lid of grass. Mix it well in a Hamilton Blech mixer. Now add a rotten egg, a decaying guppy, the spleen of 10 freshly killed frogs, and about a fistfull of goat brains. Again mix it all up. To add a bit of zip to the mixture, add some Drain-O. Now put the whole mixture under a dead horse for 37 hours. After it has aged, filter it through the right kidney of a rabid llama and serve it in a slightly soiled bed pan with an olive. Felix Major, quite obviously developed quite a drunk driving problem. The solution arrived at was simple and logical. They simply ground up offenders and added them to 'Intest-rout's. Rumor has it that this extra ingredient gave the drink the full bodied taste it had always been lacking. *******************************************************************] Arnold Lint: It's the old "Does a falling tree make a sound if there's no one there to hear" story, right? Flarg: Ooo! 'The falling tree makes no noise!' Aren't we the smart-behinded little cretans! Xaphod: No, you idiot! It means . . . uh . . . Flarg: Actually, he's quite correct. We were not happy with finding out that we may be alone, so we then assumed that there was the possibility for an infinite number of varied Nets. Gillian: How nice. Flarg: Yes, well, it now became apparent that our one little Net was entirely insignificant in the scope of things in general. Mathematically, our percentage of existance amounted to 1 over infinity, which is too small to even consider. Worse yet, since no other Net has ever contacted us, we may REALLY not exist after all. We could REALLY be mirages of the cosmic mind. Xaphod: Wow, that's heavy! Flarg: Quiet, you drugged out excuse to evacuate my stomach on the table! Rod: Go on already! Flarg: Well, after taking many heavy drugs, we finally arrived at a solid decision. Gillian: What was it? Flarg: We agreed that our existence was so insignificant that anything we did really wouldn't matter. Hence our national slogan changed to "Who Cares". After all, in light of everything I've revealed to you, it must be perfectly obvious that it just doesn't matter what you do or say on the Net. Arnold Lint: Boy, I hope the rest of the Net doesn't hear that. Flarg: Oh, they did. That's why they attacked us and wiped out most of Netrothea. They just couldn't accept that all the fuss they were making really didn't amount to a damn thing. [******************************************************************** "The Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net" points out that the Netrotheans were somewhat reknowned for exploding the faiths of others. Prior to their non-existence fetish, they published a series of treatises titled: "Who is this guy God anyway?", "Everything you always wanted to know about the benevolent Lord, but were afraid to ask.", and "Well, that's it for God." The Netrotheans had no fears of being wiped out for their bizarre views. They believed that since what we call 'death' is theoreticly infinite, and what we call 'life' is so finite and miserable (what with everybody wearing digital watches and coveting thy nieghbor's bits of green-dyed, processed plant matter), we must surely have gotten things backwards. They therefore had no problems dealing with the after-life. *******************************************************************] Xaphod: Wow, that's wild! Flarg: Now if you really want to blow your mind, consider this: If the Net doesn't really exist, do we exist? If we exist, what is the point of our existence? What is the medium of our communication if there really is no Net? What does it all mean? Arnold Lint: I don't know? Rod: That's obvious. Martin: I'm kind of relieved that nothing really exists. It's sort of reassuring to know that all the misery I've endured on the Net really doesn't affect anything anyway. Gillian: Quiet Martin. Don't you know what this all means! It means that the constant day to day struggle to keep up with the Net is all pointless. Posting news is futile, reading news is futile, thinking about news is futile - because wherever the news came from or goes to, what ever thought up the news - none of it exists - and neither do we! Rod: Yah, just think. We may have been posting news to a void! Xaphod: Wait a minute! We get replies to our news! Flarg: We thought of that too. But consider the odds against our actual existence. They could be considered random at best. The odds of other beings also existing comes down to the same random probability. It follows that any communication would have to be a random coincidence. Now, consider that the only communication we see is simply processed electrical impulses. Consider the quantity and speed of the impulses. The odds against them coming together in a logical combination are astronomicly bad. It follows, then, that what we mistake for communication with other beings (which don't exist either) are simply galactic burps in our faces, if we existed. Xaphod: Wow! Flarg: Well, you wastes of space, I've got to go and kick my dog through a hedge. (With that Flarg disappears in a burst of purple smoke. When the smoke clears, only a can of "Putrina Rat Chow" remains.) ******************** End Of Part 6 ******************** What other fantastic things (which don't exist) will be revealed on Netrothea (which also doesn't exist). To find out . . . Tune in next time (a bizarre concept, time) . . . same Net-time . . . same Net-channel. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 21-May SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #95 *** EOOH *** Date: 21 May 84 1314-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #95 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 21 May 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 95 Today's Topics: Films - 2001 & Roll-Your-Own Films (4 msgs), Television - V: The Final Battle (4 msgs), Miscellaneous - The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 7 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 May 84 14:41:16-PDT (Wed) From: hplabs!ames-lm!barry @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Answer to Douglas Rain/2001 trivia question Well, I promised I'd post the answer to this, but it WAS too easy; I received many correct answers, and no wrong ones. Yes, Douglas Rain was the voice of HAL in 2001, and while I don't actually know, I would second the guess of some of the respondents that this is also to be his role in 2010. If I post any further trivia questions, I'll try to make them tougher. Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA Electric Avenue: {dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames-lm!barry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 May 84 10:42:58 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: roll your own sf films: "Starship Troopers" "Starship Troopers" would make a very good film, excepting, of course, what is bound to be a vastly unpopular political stance certain to be dumped on at great length in the media. There's a built-in audience: in addition to all the sf fans, every Marine I've ever met, including the officers, has read it. I'd suggest John Milius to direct. He has a great sympathy for warrior castes. The fact that he did a mediocre job on "Conan" is offset by his splendid direction of "The Wind and the Lion", one of the better adventure films of the 70's. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 84 13:09:40-PDT (Tue) From: ihnp4!drutx!houxe!hogpc!houti!ariel!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!tek From: tronix!orca!mako!ariels @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: roll-your-own; a TV series For a while now, I've been thinking of a series of books I'd like to see done visually. The more I think on it, the more I realize that TV would be better suited for this book than the movies. Or maybe a TV movie pilot followed by a series. The subject: The Stainless Steel Rat Slippery Jim DeGriz: Dirk Benedict Angelina: ??? -- needs some VERY feminine-looking actress. How about Amy Irving? Mary Steenbergen(sp?)? The chief (name of char?): Burgess Meridith or Patrick McNee Simon and Bolivar: ??? -- wouldn't need them 'til later, anyway. A sort of futuristic Maverick and It Takes A Thief combined. Ariel Shattan ..!tektronix!mako!ariels ------------------------------ Date: 16 May 84 17:02:35-PDT (Wed) From: decvax!mcnc!akgua!gatech!spaf @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Roll your own SF films... I remember reading a short story once where the main characters were watching a "classic" movie from the 1980s. It was an Irwin Allen production of "Gray Lensman" with Charlton Heston in the lead role. I always thought that a pretty amusing idea.... Off the Wall of Gene Spafford The Clouds Project, School of ICS, Georgia Tech, Atlanta GA 30332 CSNet: Spaf @ GATech ARPA: Spaf%GATech @ CSNet-Relay uucp: ...!{akgua,allegra,ihnp4,masscomp,ut-ngp}!gatech!spaf ...!{rlgvax,sb1,uf-cgrl,unmvax,ut-sally}!gatech!spaf ------------------------------ Date: 16 May 84 11:09:05-PDT (Wed) From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!shark!hutch @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Amber, The Movie | Most of the major characters can be easily cast, though. One big | problem shows up with Benedict: how do you find someone who looks | like Ichabod Crane, and at the same time looks like a military | genius greater than Napoleon, Patton, and Von Klausewitz combined? How about Klaus Kinski? Hutch ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 84 13:53:10-PDT (Tue) From: ihnp4!fortune!grw @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: drying planets... Well, not to defend "V" or anything, but they probably decided to get their water from Earth because it seemed like a much funner place than Europa. These guys obviously got off on facism, and Europa provides few opportunities for same. Also, about the tongue -- it was clear throughout the show that --somehow-- the aliens could make their tongues look like normal human tongues, so I see no problem there. BUT!! It was also clear that the aliens required LIVE FOOD, (The Earthlings must never see us eat!), so how did that one alien commander manage to have dinner at Gooder's moms house all the time? There are too many other holes to go into now. Hey, if it's okay to use germ warfare on Space Facists, why not on Earth Facists? (The above does not constitute a "cute signoff") -Glenn ------------------------------ Date: 16 May 84 5:30:28-PDT (Wed) From: hplabs!intelca!proper!dave.e @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Book of "V" (Slight Spoiler) I also read the "V" book. The tv version was pretty faithful to it for the first two episodes, then they butchered it for the last one. That stupid ending that everyone has been complaining about was done totally differently in the book (Elizabeth changed the bomb timing delay in the ship's computer to an infinite loop. She used the computers a lot in the book so, that made some sense.) I thought the book was pretty decent considering that it had to go off of a ready made plot. As far as the last episode was concerned, I think that was too sensationalistic. /Dave Edick/ ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 84 15:31:14-PDT (Tue) From: decvax!dartvax!johnc @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Space nazis and people who complain I wasn't going to say anything about this movie, but everyone else has said something. In fact, it looks like everyone else has decided to put this movie down. I don't see why people thought it was such a bad movie. I keep reading messages from people who say this that or the other-thing was wrong. Why the left hand, why water and not ice, why eat humans, etc. Why do people have to question? I watched the movie because I wanted to see some entertainment, not because I wanted to pick apart the science part of the SF. If people want to pick apart the science part of the movie, try explaining their spaceships and why they didn't fall to the ground. They were close enough, and they weren't visibly using any fuel to keep aloft. Enough said, I think. Let's not start picking at The Star Trek movies next :-). --johnc [decvax, linus, cornell, astrovax] !dartvax!johnc ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 84 13:21:51-PDT (Mon) From: sun!qubix!steven @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: drying planets... > > Okay, what are some of those reasons? Did everyone decide to > > drink at the same time? (Or is it flush?) > Planet-wide drought, caused by imbalances in the hydrogen-oxygen > mixture of the planet's atmosphere. > The same, caused by the planet moving out of orbit (closer to its > sun). > The same, caused by contamination of the planet's atmosphere > (perhaps natural, perhaps not). 1] "imbalances in the hydrogen-oxygen mixture" ???? That would mean that there was either Too much Hydrogen, or Too much Oxygen. Either one, would kill the entire planet long before lack of H2O became a problem. Besides, just what is performing the separation into component elements? Last I heard, it takes a lot of KCALs to persuade those little H's to break up from the O's. 2] "Caused by the planet moving .. (closer to its sun)". That would not make the water go away. It would vaporize it (and the planet too). 3] "caused by cotamination of the planet's atmosphere" This could only mean that the planet has been producing reducing agents at a volume beyond compare. Even then, the amount of water on the planet would be basically unchanged, and it certainly would be easier to just extract the water, than to travel to another planet to get some. > > And, even if by some unbelievable process their water does > > disappear, it would probabily be far easier to skim hydrogen of > > the neighborhood gas giant and combine it with oxygen smelted > > from any nearby rocky planetary body; at least compared to > > hauling megamass of water over interstellar distances. > > That is assuming those type of planets exist in their solar > system. If they don't, they must come to other planets. And if > they are going to do that, they might as well get water in its > natural form (even if they have to steal it) rather than go to > Jupiter and do it the hard way. 1] There must be 100,000,000 balls of ice between here and the "home planet". The ice contained in all, is no doubt considerably larger than the size of jupiter. 2] Grabbing a spaceship full of water, is not exactly going to solve the draught problems of an entire planet. 3] There is a story told by Asimov called "The Martian Way", which is about the sheer stupidity of people, and what happens when it is used by a demogouge. The sheer stupid subject used by that demogouge? Earth was running out of water (due to Martian use of it). Steven M. ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 84 12:41:59 EDT From: Saul Subject: The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 7 Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net Episode 7 (Xaphod, Gillian, Rod, Martin, and Arnold Lint continue their descent into the heart of Netrothea. Flarg Brittashik has vanished leaving only a tin of Putrina Rat Chow in his stead.) Xaphod: Wow, that was far out! Martin: If you say so. (All of a sudden, the 12" CRT on Xaphod's shoulder starts up . . . Star Wars type music kicks in . . . Once upon a time, in a Net far, far away, a band of steadfast hackers are fighting a gallant fight. Vast swarms of nauseatingly repetitious messages are swamping their news. They must retaliate. This is their story . . . This is Zar Wars. . . All the nodes beginning with the letter Z have banded together, they are tired of always being last because the Net does everything alphabeticly. They decide to stage a bold attack and make their prescence known! to this end they devised a cunning scheme to echo their news articles across the known Net several multiple times each posting. In this way, they would be assured the attention they feel they deserve. Net.landers are at this moment preparing for a counterattack. They are preparing massive Photocomplaint rays, Gargantugripe bombs, and the ever deadly Superplasmicautor- everberatingmegamoleculozapperdingledangledonglehyperintensified- newandimprovedtimewarping complaint field generators. The last device is one of the most feared (and hardest to pronounce) in the known Net. Its power is so incredible that grown men have been known to pull out their own livers rather than be subjected to its awesome force.) Rod: Turn that off! Xaphod: (Doing so) Yah, what a drag. Arnold Lint: Well, what do we do now. Gillian: I guess we keep going. Martin: Do we have to? All: Yes! Arnold Lint: Sure could go for a cup of tea. Xaphod: (Mumbling to himself) Stupid git! Martin: Do you people really think this is necessary? Why can't you be satisfied with things as they are? Must you always try to change them - things can only get worse. Xaphod: Look you morose metal moron, we're going on so shut up. Look upon this as an adventure into a whole new life. Martin: Oh no, not another. (The stairwell they are on leads into a huge room. So huge that it defies commentary, only to say that it is, in fact, bloody huge. Off in the distance there is a faint light. Arnold Lint and company head for it. Two weeks later they arrive. the light is being emitted from a strange kind of TTY. There is a plaque nearby which reads: "For the answer to Life, the Net and Everything, type in 'Help'. For dirty books or leather goods, ring bell for service. The Inter-Net Megamind Exchange and Novelty Shoppe thanks you for your patronage of our establishment".) Arnold Lint: Wow, the answer to Life, the Net, and Everything! Xaphod: Who cares, lets get at the dirty books! Rod: Yah! I wonder if they have "Advanced Necrophilia for Scientists and Engineers" or "Yes, you can be a Toad-Sexer"? Arnold Lint: Dirty books, way out here? Xaphod: Of course, depravity is the universal language. Pornographic material is generally considered legal tender anywhere in the Net. I once lived for a whole year on Carnolea, just on trading my old "Gland" magazines and lubricants for supplies. Gillian: (Disgusted by the antics of Rod and Xaphod)Lets see the answer already - boy what sicko's. Xaphod: OK, but then can we get some dirty books. (Xaphod types in 'HELP' to the keyboard. Strange hummings and buzzings start to eminate from the TTY. The cryptic characters "101010" appear on the screen.) [******************************************************************** "The Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net" points out that the number 42, when viewed in it's binary representation is in fact, quite revealing. There are many theories for what it actually means. The adult magazine "Spurt" suggests that it is the perfect pattern for an orgy, three males and three females being the supposed ideal. The actual shape of the characters of '101010' seem to bear this out. Also the fact that it does go 'boy-girl-boy . . . ' also helps. The religious magazine 'Modern Moral Majority' (MMM) suggests that it is in fact a message from God. The pattern indicates that two of the same sex shall not have intercourse. The fact that there are equal numbers of both male and female indicates that monogamous relationships are the thing to do. Also the fact that, when read, left to right, the man always comes first, really gave them an edge on the ERA (who really didn't listen anyway). Most other people simply wondered why everyone thought the binary sequence had anything at all to do with sex. ******************************************************************] Rod: That's it? Xaphod: Apparently. Gillian: There must be more than just 42. Martin: I certainly hope not. Xaphod: Well, lets try to get some more info! (Xaphod once again starts typing at the TTY. Characters flash and buzzers buzz. The TTY finally gives up, it types out: "All right already, if you really want the answers, take the service elevator to the 127,366,247th floor, then follow the green line till it meets the blue line till it meets the orange line till it becomes the slightly off white line. Then climb out the window, jump off and ask for Ralph. He'll tell you the whole story. Now push off, I've had a bad day. (To itself now) Where did I put those Valliums. Crap, I need a drink . . . ") Xaphod: Oh well, what do we have to loose. Martin: Not much really, just our lives. Of course, my life means so little already, I doubt I'd mind if it were lost. Rod: Quiet. ******************** End Of Part 7 ******************** What is the actual answer to Life, the Net, and Everything? Will Arnold Lint get his tea? Will Xaphod get his dirty book? Will the net sponsor a Pot-Luck-Orgy? For the answers to these and many other pointless questions . . . Tune in next time . . . same Net-time . . . same Net-channel. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 21-May SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #96 *** EOOH *** Date: 21 May 84 1341-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #96 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 21 May 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 96 Today's Topics: Books - Bradley & Herbert & Kurland & Libertarian SF (2 msgs), Films - Stalker and Solaris, Television - V: The Final Battle (5 msgs), Miscellaneous - English & Death Star Weapons (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Feb 84 23:55:00-PST (Wed) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uokvax!jmike@Berkeley Subject: Re: Preachy authors continued..... - (nf) Well I'm a male and I enjoyed Thendara House. As I read the book I took no offense, but then maybe that was because the author wasn't talking about me. Were you like one of the characters in the book? Is that why you took offense? I though that Zimmer wrote an excellent book portraying a clash of cultures. Keep in mind that she isn't necessarily writing about our culture (although I'm not so sure it doesn't fit in many cases). The plot was very well written and really made me think about culture clashes and looking beyond what most of us take for granted. (and i'm not just refering to male-female relationships... i'm refering to thousands of pseudo behaviors that society has created). But I suppose that if you were preoccupied with worrying about your male ego, you might have missed that. mike ...ctvax!uokvax!jmike ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 84 2:13:38-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!sdccs6!ix21 @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Dune -- Frank Herbert Interview The interview of Frank Herbert on the Larry King Show will be repeated on Saturday night. Those of you who are interested check the radio listings in your area for the Larry King Show. The Frank Herbert interview will be during the first three hours. ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 84 12:05:20-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!shark!hutch @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Michael Kurland For other works by Kurland, try "The Butterfly Kid" probably long out of print, "The Unicorn Girl" also probably long out of print, and I recall at least three others but cannot think of the titles. By the way, "Butterfly Kid" is by Chester VJ Anderson. Both books are, um, unusual explorations of alternate universes?! If Anderson actually exists outside of Kurland's head, (I hear he does) then they have the most amazing ability to write in exactly the same style! Hutch ------------------------------ Date: Thu 17 May 84 11:16:11-PDT From: Laurence R Brothers Subject: libertarian sf There is a difference between literature as literature, and literature for propaganda's sake, and the dividing line is probably more of a 12 lane highway. I have no objection to an authors opinions coming across in his fiction--far from it. But when a thin plot, flat characters, etc. are used merely as a vehicle for conveying politics, that is going a little too far. Many works of art have been used to sway people's thinking or communicate some moral, message, or other idea, but as I see it, the quality of the art should come before the meaning of the message. Practically, this will convey the author's point better than having characters rant on for pages at a time on the benefits of some social system, anyhow. It's hard to define in general whether some work is "too" blatantly propagandizing, but its fairly easy to tell in particular for any specific book. -Laurence ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 84 10:40:45-PDT (Sun) From: hplabs!tektronix!tekchips!vice!keithl @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Libertarian Futurist Society For more pointers to libertarian SF, I suggest membership in the Libertarian Futurist Society. $10/yr buys access to their small (8-12 pages) but well constructed newsletter/fanzine, "Prometheus". Mostly book reviews, but an occasional short article, such as "Programming Fascism", a dig at computer educators who tout "correct thinking" via structured languages. These folks make the yearly "Prometheus Award" for best libertarian SF. subscriptions: LFS, Ben Olson, Treasurer, RR 1, Box 114, Pocohontas, IA 50574 editorial offices: LFS, 121 McKinley Street, Rochester, NY 14609 Keith Lofstrom uucp: {ucbvax,decvax,chico,pur-ee,cbosg,ihnss}!tektronix!vice!keithl CSnet: keithl@tek ARPAnet:keithl.tek@rand-relay ------------------------------ Date: 25 Mar 84 13:39:00-PST (Sun) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Movie query: Stalker, Solaris - (nf) *Stalker* -- Well, I remember going to see this one evening last summer. I remember being incredibly bored throughout most of the movie. But I also find that there are quite a few things about it that still stand out in my mind. It's taken from the Strugatskys' *Roadside Picnic*, which I haven't read, and I have the impression that the book is involved with the aliens who stop by Earth for a picnic, while the film focuses on how "The Zone" where the picnic was held affects the lives of the people who live near it. There are some neat things in the film, but there are also some losers. There are too many scenes that are held far, far too long. But I'm not sorry I saw it, even though I couldn't wait for the thing to end while I was watching it (if I'd ever walked out of a movie, it would have been either *Stalker* or *Days of Heaven*). If you are prepared for a long movie about "ordinary" people exploring alien leftovers, and don't mind waiting a few days or weeks or months to appreciate what you've seen, go see it. If not, Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom will be out in a few months. Wombat ihnp4!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat ------------------------------ Date: 16 May 84 6:22:07-PDT (Wed) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!ritcv!jeh @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Nonsense in V No one has mentioned another sickeningly obvious parallel to Star Wars: The supreme commander arriving to visit Diana was exactly like the emperor arriving to visit Vader. Embarassed to admit I watched it, Jim Heliotis {allegra,seismo}!rochester!ritcv!jeh rocksvax!ritcv!jeh ritcv!jeh@Rochester ------------------------------ Date: 16 May 84 23:24:23-PDT (Wed) From: harpo!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Nonsense in V Vader didn't off the Emperor, though. ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 84 1:38:31-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!zehntel!zinfandel!berry @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Re: Invasion of the Space Nazis, the - (nf) "...why didn't they just take the polar ice caps, which would take less room, if they kept it around 32 degrees F." Omigod I don't believe this. No wonder 'V' gets good ratings. ICE TAKES UP MORE ROOM! WHY DO YOU THINK IT FLOATS!!! Goodness me, I must be perturbed. I think this is what they call a flame. Berry Kercheval Zehntel Inc. (ihnp4!zehntel!zinfandel!berry) (415)932-6900 ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 84 7:53:27-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!iddic!rickc @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: V, The Final Whatever Sorry, but I can't help myself on this one: > 2. Earth is 70% water, and almost all life on Earth is mostly > comprised of water. (we are, for example, as most primates I > imagine would be, most mammals in general I suppose). These > beings could certainly use us for food, assuming there are enough > of us around. It wasn't as if they were going anywhere -- the > world's population of humans and other life could keep their > numbers alive for quite a few years. When they finally exhaust > the supply of life on Earth, they can just move off to another > planet. > Water is a more precious substance than we Earthlings care to > think of it as. Think about worldwide drought for a long period > of time (one year, let's say) and the effects of it on world > politics, health, the economy, etc. (Think of Soylent Green, > also. We ate ourselves when it came down to it, why shouldn't a > band of ruthless aliens do the same?) The Earth is not 70% water. 70% of the surface area of the earth is covered by water, however. Balls of water ice are floating around our solar system; one need not go into the gravity well of Earth to get it. I agree that other, better stories already exist in the same vein as V: they could have just done Heinlein's Puppet Masters. Rick Coates tektronix!iddic!rickc ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 84 17:59:30-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!uw-june!moriarty @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Arrrgh! VTV Oh, gad. Just another thing which the general public can point to and say, "Look, Science Fiction is crap!". I bet this is even worse than *uck Rogers. Moriarty {ihnp4,decvax,tektronix}!uw-beaver!uw-june!moriarty ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 1984 15:18:15-EDT From: Michael.Mauldin@CMU-CS-CAD Subject: English >From: Deryk Barker >Subject: sex in SF >...nymphomaniac (and whatever the male equivalent is - I >apologise for the inherent sexism of parts of the English >language)... The male equivalent is ``satyriasis'', which admittedly sounds like something Tegrin (R) would cure (and who knows, it just might, though I've never heard any authoritative reports to that effect). And you have no need to apologize for the inherent sexism of parts of the English language--I seriously doubt that you are personally responsible for them. For the etymological reader, the word is derived from the Greek word ``satyros'' (eng. satyr), a lecherous woodland deity. Usually represented as a man with the legs, ears, and horns of a goat. Pan was a satyr. ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 84 9:27:46-PDT (Mon) From: ihnp4!ihu1g!fish @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Death Star weapon. Yes, the strong nuclear force IS much greater than the electromagnetic force, which is why nuclear weapons make such a big noise. I still contend that the Death Star weapon starts a nuclear chain reaction at the target, but I don't know how you could do it. Assuming that Alderan was made up of iron and silicates, etc, there isn't much readily fissionable or fusionable material around. I don't think a weapon that could neutralize the electrostatic charges is feasible, but a proton beam would be just as effective. Trouble is, the effect would be local. Bob Fishell ihnp4!ihu1g!fish ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 May 84 09:36 PDT From: trainoff.pasa@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: Death Star weapon (Niven version) Larry Niven's weapon which neutralizes the charges on electrons certainly would be a gadget. In response to Mark Vita's question of the plausibility of this weapon, I would have to say it cannot exist! First, however, I must make a disclaimer. Much to my embarrasement, I have not read the story in which this weapon appears, so I do not know exactly how the device was intended to work. From the descriptions, though, I have a few comments to make. (Enough with blasphemy... lets get on with it). Like so many other neat weapons it appears to violate conservation of energy; that is, if the gun does nothing other than remove the charges. The first question one should ask themselves is: Where does the energy which blows up the target come from? One might respond that the energy is locked up in the atomic structure to start with and it is just a matter of releasing it. If that is the case then all we have to do is zap something and collect all of the free electrons on some capacitor plates, restore the charge and let it drive a motor. Then let the charge leak back onto what we zapped and start over. This way we can generate all of the energy we want, right? (Well...) Now, if we really want to save this device, we must require that the gun supply all of the energy to drive this process. Then we are left with the nagging question, what powers the gun? An alternative explanation could be that we cannot restore the charge to the electrons once they have been zapped. Presumably the phenomenon is a local one or we have just created a new type of subatomic particle. One that has the same mass as an electron but no charge. Needless to say, none has ever been observed so I think it is reasonable to assume that this change is not permanent. Yet another possible explanation would be that the energy that is released is partly used to restore the electronic charge. If this is the case then all we have really done is created a fancy total energy conversion process, which is not really a new concept. But, after all this is science fiction. We could also say that conservation of energy will be violated as a result of this weapon. This would not be the first time that a perfectly reasonable conservation law has bitten the dust. Just look at conservation of parity, conservation of cp symmetry, etc. Somehow though, I don't think that conservation of energy will ever change. After all, you just can't get something for nothing. While we are on the topic of removing atomic characteristics, we can do much better by considering other forces. For example if we could neutralize the attractive force of gluons which binds together the quarks in protons and neutrons (among other particles), we could really get a lot of energy out. This force is vastly stronger than the coulomb force. For example consider a charmonium particle which consists of a charmed quark and a charmed antiquark. The exchange of gluons binds them together. The force is unusual in that it increases with distance rather than decreasing. As a result, the quarks vibrate at a very high frequency. In a distance on the order of 1e-15 meters they go from approximately three quarters of the speed of light in one direction to three quarters of the speed of light in the other direction. This corresponds to a peak force of something like ten tons! If we could turn that binding force off we would get rather spectacular fireworks! One last comment about Niven's gun. If it is a handheld weapon, it is not likely to be very safe for the operator. This is a problem with more mundane weapons such a x-ray or gamma ray laser guns. The operator is bombarded with intense doses of backscattered hard x-rays. In any case, plausible or not, bizzare new weapons give us some interesting topics for thought. Steve Trainoff ------------------------------ Date: 16 May 84 15:12:29-PDT (Wed) From: sun!qubix!steven @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Death Star weapon. > The plausibility is the same as for FTL, thiotimoline, and the > radio in Galileo's day - impossibly small *at this time*. Later > on, who knows? FTL is *IMPOSSIBLE* DO YOU HEAR ME???? YOU HAVE A BETTER CHANCE AT MAKING A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE THAN YOU HAVE AT MAKING AN FTL DRIVE!!!! I find it somewhat humorous (in a sick sort of way) that people who are supposed to be as intelligent as SF readers, can totally ignore the findings of Einstein -- without even bothering to read or understand them. What Einstein discovered, is a new (UNBREAKABLE) law: much like the Second Law of Thermodynamics. And ALL THE FUTURE SCIENCE IN THE WORLD, will not change it, or allow one to get around it somehow. The "hyperspace" excuse, arises from an incomplete understanding of what Einstein discovered: you cannot "go around" the distance, because the very act of APPEARING at a place before light gets there, is exactly equivalent to going backwards through time. Steven Maurer ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 22-May SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #97 *** EOOH *** Date: 22 May 84 1306-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #97 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 22 May 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 97 Today's Topics: Books - An Author Enquiry Answered & Cthulu Mythos & Book Request, Films - Star Trek (2 msgs), Television - Questor & Spectre, Miscellaneous - The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 8 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 23 Mar 84 23:06:00-PST (Fri) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Author Enquiries - (nf) A friend of mine talked to Panshin at Chicon IV, where he was told that the book was finished and would be published "soon." Of course, that was a year and a half ago and the book hasn't appeared yet. It may be that Panshin wants to publish the book himself, under his Elephant Books imprint, and is waiting for a contract with Ace to run out or something. Wombat ihnp4!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 84 10:16:08 EDT From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst Subject: Looking for Cthulhu Mythos stories I'm trying to find any and all Cthulhu Mythos stories. I'd like pointers to things I may have missed. Here's a list of what I've read: Lovecraft: *EVERYTHING* including poems/revisions/collaborations/ghosted stuff except "Hist. & Chron. of Necronomicon" Derleth: everything mentioned in Lin Carter's BEHIND THE MYTHOS except "Watchers out of Time" Arkham House anthologies: DARK THINGS, TALES OF CTH. MYTHOS, OVER THE EDGE Howard: everything mentioned in Carter except "Arkham" poem Long: "Hounds of Tindalos", "Space Eaters" (where's the stuff abt. Chaugnar Faugn: "Horror from Hills", "When Chaugnar Wakes"?) Smith: everything in Carter Campbell: "Mine on Yuggoth" but nothing else from INHABITANT OF THE LAKE (know where I might find the whole thing? It's out of print, unless Arkham rereleased it); DEMONS IN DARKNESS Lumley: BURROWERS BENEATH, TRANSITION OF T. CROW, CLOCK OF DREAMS, SPAWN OF WINDS, HORROR AT OAKDEENE, CALLER OF BLACK, BENEATH MOORS, UNDER MOONS OF BOREA Myers: nothing Carter: LOVECRAFT: BEHIND THE MYTHOS, stories in WEIRD TALES paperbacks 1 & 4 Other anthologies: SPAWN OF CTH., DISCIPLES OF CTH., something Stuart Schiff published called H.P.L. I know of, but don't have, Carter's DREAMS FROM RLYEH & Campbell's NEW TALES OF CTH. MYTHOS. I'm also looking for a Mythos bibliography by one Edward/Edmund(?) Berglund. What else is there? I'll even take references to single stories in anthologies. Is it worth subscribing to/hunting up back issues of WHISPERS? I don't have Net access except through SF-LOVERS Digest, so I can't describe how to reach me, but if you can somehow send all responses to me (JAROCHA-ERNST@RU-BLUE.ARPA), I'll summarize for the Digest. Thanks for ANY help, Chris ------------------------------ Date: 17 May 1984 15:07 EDT (Thu) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" Subject: Book Request I remember reading that a sequel to Master of the Five Magics is out. Anyone know the title? ------------------------------ Date: 17 May 1984 1745-EDT From: Warren Sander Subject: Why SPOCK had to die Since the ENTERPRISE was in the Moutra Nebula (sp) (they went there because their sheilds were broken, and sensors were almost out) They couldn't use their shields (the same is true of Kahn's ship) so the device could have been beamed aboard if they could get a fix on it (SPOCK only noticed the power curve that it was producing). Also the transporter had to be working (When they beamed Kirk and company up from the GENESIS room they were told that that had used up all the transporter power). They wouldn't be able to use the transporter until the mains were back on line (then the warp engines could recharge the power system). They didn't know or ask if beaming the GENESIS device aboard the Enterprise would set it off (failsafe device to keep unfriendlys from taking it apart and finding out how it works! (remember that the scientists didn't trust the Federation to use Genesis for peaceful purposes)) or if they could get rid of it once they had it aboard (no more power for the transporter). They could have blown the other ship up before Genesis could build up to explode (but that may have set it off). It seems to me that someone had to go and get the mains back online and since Scotty was in a state of shock from the death of his youngest nephew and the radiation that he had already gotten trying to fix the ship. Since SPOCK was the only other person that we know and care about who knows as much about the ship as Scotty (debatable but SPOCK can fake it) and SPOCK has an ability to withstand more radiation than the other known members of the Enterprise he was the logical one to go in and try to get the mains online. I personally don't think that SPOCK intended to die maybe some previously forgotten piece of Vulcan anatomy would come into play (it still may (remember the attack of the one celled life forms and the exposure to intense light on some long forgotten episode)). That may be what will happen. Maybe Genesis will just sort of help his Vulcan healing along (when Vulcans heal themselves they go into that state of pseudo-suspended animation until the last second and then they have to be beaten up to get back to the real world - wouldn't it be nice to see McCoy find the photon torpedo casket open it and start smacking SPOCK in the face much to the dismay of the others in the party and have SPOCK sit up and say Thank you Dr. McCoy that is quite sufficient. Kirk could then say 'SPOCK your not dead' ..... well I went on enough Warren Sander SANDER at DEC-MARLBORO ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 1984 04:26 EDT (Sun) From: "David A. Brown" Subject: Transporting the Genesis machine in TWOK There's been a lot of discussion about beaming the Genesis device into deep space as was done in 'The Changeling' and 'Wolf in the Fold.' Kirk suggested this in the movie when they first detected the device aboard the Reliant, but David quickly said "You can't" and that was the end of it. I guess we'll have to take his word that the transporter wouldn't have been useful on the device. Maybe it had something to go with the nature of Genesis - once the device had been activated, the Genesis energy field had already been set up (remember David noticed the Genesis wave pattern on a video display when Khan had just started it up?) The transporter isn't very effective on pure energy, only matter. Disrupting the device itself (matter) after it had originally set up the Genesis field (energy) could cause the energy that had already accumulated to be released. I guess Spock really didn't die in vain... - David ------------------------------ Date: 8 Feb 84 13:59:00-PST (Wed) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uok!crigney @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Orphaned Response - (nf) The best part of Prototype was the way the Android learned. He'd see someone else carrying his books more comfortably, and adjust his. Or when the professor took his salad (he didn't eat) to make it look like the android had eaten, the android took his fork and placed it in the empty bowl. Very little things, but they had immense impact. You could feel the android's attempts to understand the confusing world of humans, especially with so little help from the cold professor. I'd really like to see this as a series, except I doubt they could keep the quality up. Lack of ideas may have also killed Questor. **************** SPOILER WARNING ********************************** I almost expected that the android faked his death, to throw off pursuit. It would have been an eerie scene, at the very last, to show the burning garage, and the people watching it, and then pull far back to a nearby rise, and show the Android (Michael?) watching them. Free at last. Carl ..!ctvax!uokvax!uok!crigney ..!duke!uok!crigney ------------------------------ Date: 8 Feb 84 12:44:00-PST (Wed) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uok!crigney @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Orphaned Response - (nf) Roddenberry's "Genesis" had two pilots, I believe the second is called "Earth 2." Does anyone know if Roddenberry ever filmed the pilot for the series SPECTRE? Scripts were once available from Lincoln Enterprises, and I seem to recall seeing a movie called Spectre, with a very similar plot, in the TV listings (not a channel my set recieved, blast it). It concerned a group of people, agents (?), whatever that fought Evil in the present era - I'm probably wrong on this summary, but that was the flavor. I do recall one of the agents was a weretiger. Anyone remember this or have any more information? Carl ..!ctvax!uokvax!uok!crigney ..!duke!uok!crigney ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 84 12:31:53 EDT From: Saul Subject: The Hitch hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 8 Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net Episode 8 - The Flamers Return (The crew of the Infinity are proceeding to where the TTY directed them. A place where they would find out more about the answer to Life, the Net, and Everything.) Arnold Lint: This is sure a long trip. Martin: Why even bother to travel through the Net. All that happens is that you are bombarded with countless meaningless messages from Singularans about how they feel, and how they feel they should feel, and how others feel they should feel. You just get over that and some droning Flamer gets on about how drunk drivers should be allowed to retain their licenses only if they have oral sex with a diseased Yak, and they go on, and on, and on, not even realising that no one is really paying attention. Just when you finally get up nerve to post something, some jello-brained fanatic gets on your case about how you should spell things correctly and "we always do things proper where I work", and then someone else gets on trying to correlate the right to spell terribly with the constitution. And you never know how people will take things, either they're offended when they shouldn't be, or they take insults as just good conversation. And if you try to keep personalities out of what you post, some half wit from a fabled crappy state on the eastern sea-board comes along and starts getting personal with the insults, not realising what he is really getting into. And then some emaciated loony starts posting 150 line complaints about people posting 150 line articles, which they don't have to read anyway, but feel obliged to comment on simply because their minute egos need the boost of ragging on someone they've never met. And then some deranged cat-molester starts some boring discussion about the role of contraception in the development of the ballpoint pen, which goes on, and on, and you find that before long your 'n' key has lost the printing on it from overuse. And then people start sending endless messages about stopping the endless messages of the ongoing debate. And then your brain bursts from frustration and even if you try to contribute something worthwhile to the Net, somone's always getting his rear out of joint about something . . . Xaphod: Will you shut the @#$% up! Martin: Sure, why not, you weren't really interested anyway. Rod: You're bloody right about that. (All of a sudden, the hall they are travelling darkens. Twenty-two Flamers beam into view. They are noticibly ticked off.) Commander: Look you, we told you to take your mindless drivel off the Net. Number 1: Yah! Number 2: Yah! Rod: Yah! . . . yah, yah, yah. Xaphod: Since when. Commander: Well, it was in a different time, we boarded your vessel, acted like the mindless, malodorous, sodomistic necrophiles that we are, did a lot of shouting, and told you to forever leave the Net. Xaphod: Oh yeah, you must be the Flamers from Kekraphoon, you're the ones with the delusions of representing the consciousness of the Net. Rod: What a pack of twits, don't you know that the HHGttN has received almost overwhelming support from all over Netland? Number 1: We'll have to blast you. Xaphod: You had your chance torch-head. You should have spoken up when we started. But now we have a loyal following. Number 2: But you are taking up valuable space. Rod: You must be kidding, with the vast quantities of stuff that are considerably longer than HHGttN that go out on the Net, and ignored totally, you have the narrow mindedness to use such a worn out argument. Commander: What do you expect! Gillian: Haven't you noticed people asking for missed episodes? Number 1: Well . . . we choose to ignore that. Commander: Now hold it, we want you OFF. You're upsetting the balance. Time was when we Flamers had the run of the Net. Those were the good old days, pouncing on innocent people posting messages for no reason at all. People cowering in their offices, wondering if we would cut them to ribbons for spelling errors. Now you've ruined it. We just can't deal with . . . satire (Dinsdale?). Our weak attempts to counterattack fade quickly. No, you've got to GO, so we can retain our purity of essence and have no contamination of our precious bodily fluids. Xaphod: PUSH OFF you stiff! You aren't the bloody consciousness of the Net, you aren't even conscious. If you don't like the stuff, nobody is forcing you to read it. What are you, one of those Moral Majority types. Yah, that's it, you don't like what people say, so you try to make sure that nobody hears it. That's censorship, mate. Just because you don't appreciate or understand something, doesn't make everyone who does wrong. Commander: Uh, uh . . . Rod: Why don't we start throwing insults at the guy who sent the Flamers. We could kick around his childhood and stuff like that. Xaphod: No, let's not go down to that level. Gillian: Yah, lets keep our values. [The editors of "The Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net" point out that every attempt is made NOT to name names or point fingers. The HHGttN is a compendium of commentary intended to help understand what goes on in Netland, a place often billed as a "wheatfield of mental disorders". The editors also point out that all episodes are intended purely in the spirit of comedic-satire. Any insults to any individual's religion, political views, or anything like that is either purely accidental, or definitely intentional. The HHGttN complaints department is open at all hours, but has so far only received one (well intended) complaint, which was kindly accepted and acknowledged to the sender. The editors remind all Netlanders that there is no evil spell forcing them to read HHGttN (even though it makes perfectly good sense to do so)!!! ] (In a fit of frustration, the Flamers depart, muttering something about "We shall return".) Arnold Lint: Well, that was exciting. Xaphod: Now let's get going and find the answer. Rod: Yah, and the dirty books. Gillian: (Looking at a huge mural on what could be considered the wall) Look over there, it looks like a whole new Net! Martin: Oh no, not another. ******************** End Of Part 8 ******************** Will the crew of the Infinity ever find the answer, or will they get interupted again, to find out . . . Tune in next time . . . same Net-time . . . same Net-channel. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 22-May SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #98 *** EOOH *** Date: 22 May 84 1345-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #98 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 22 May 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 98 Today's Topics: Books - "Valentina", Television - V: The Final Battle (4 msgs), Miscellaneous - How to Get Rich & The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 9 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 1 Apr 84 5:12:00-PST (Sun) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!ea!mwm @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: May 1984 *Analog* < Nuclear flames - (nf) ***** MINOR "VALENTINA" SPOILER ***** [Insert usual disclaimer about working from memory.] I read "Valentina," and no, I'm not greatly disgusted/angered. First, the lawyer - he was, indeed, a pretty slimy character. Reminds me more of a court reporter than a lawyer :-). The thing that bothered you about him was that he liked young girls, and our two hackers were the only ones who noticed. Unless I'm badly mistaken, this was a new twist to his live (we saw the start of it, remember), and he happened to leave clues where our greasy-haired hacker would find them. Now, about the two hackers. You are correct, all hackers aren't that like that. If they had been blacks/women/, the story would have resulted in a long, loud, righteous outcry. It would also have been as silly as yours was. The current trend to display everybody in glowing colors stinks. Doing so is spreading disinformation as badly as propagating stereotypes. Worse yet, it handicaps an author. Now, in this specific case, Celeste needed to be ugly (plot line, ya'know). I don't know about the flaw that would have kept her out of grad school. The two flaws in her character I found wouldn't necessarily have been sufficient, especially if she is (as we are told) the "best in the world" when it comes to hacking. Gunboat is a slightly different case. I can believe a hacker working for a law firm - especially one with the traits he displayed. I hope he'd be thrown out of anything that calls itself a school in short order; and not because of his lack of hygiene, but because he's nearly as slimy a character as the lawyer. Or aren't people outside of the Ivory Tower Universities allowed to have hacker-level interest in computers, and (maybe even) skills to match? Given that he's not in a school, he could wind up hacking for almost anybody. Making gunboat the greasy-haired character he was wasn't needed, but I think it was appropriate. It makes him that much easier to hate. Besides which, the majority of the hackers I've run into lean more towards gunboat than towards the three-piece suit flavored hackers you (almost) never see. Given that people like gunboat actually exist (I've met them; I'm not to far away myself. Long hair, slovenly dress, and addiction to junk food. I do try and keep the dirt to a minimum, though.), I think that Delaney and Stiegler were justified in their characterization. Personally, I was *much* more upset by the "backdoors" in "WarGames." I don't do such things, and don't know of anybody who ever let a product out the door that had backdoors (in house, yes. But never to the public.) "Valentina" gives the world a possibly biased view of hackers. "WarGames" stooped to slander. "Tim! Dave! Cheese! Tim! Dave! Cheese!" ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 84 10:47:16-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!mako!davidl @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Invasion of the Space Nazis, the final battle I'm one of those folks who just loves to come up with rational explanations for irrational Sky-Fy, so... Obviously, the Visitors are a high-technology people. (Consider the energy required to hold those motherships up...) A reasonable assumption is that they have been civilized for a long time, and probably spent several hundred years between their Industrial Age and the development of interstellar travel. This is more than enough time to mess up an ecology completely. Suppose the Visitors, being exclusively carnivorous, managed to wipe out all the non-domesticated edible species on their home planet in that time. After a few hundred years of inbreeding, it is possible that the domestic species could suddenly lose viability. This could happen in any number of ways, but one likely problem is a plague to which all the members of a given inbred species are susceptible (for example, the Irish potato famine of the last century was caused by the fact that most of the potatoes in Ireland were of the same strain, and all succumbed at once to a potato blight). Now we have a planet full of civilized, spacefaring carnivores who find their food supply in deadly peril. Perhaps they can hold out for a while on the remaining species of edible domestic animals, but they know that they're in trouble. The cure to inbred, vulnerable strains is fresh breeding stock. So, off they go to other worlds for more breeding stock. However, the chance of the new stock being able to interbreed with the native life is remote at best (OK, sometimes you get lucky, but you can't count on it). Therefore, the breeding population they bring back has to be large enough to avoid genetic degradation for as long as possible... millions of individuals at least, possibly billions. Those individuals also have to be as genetically diverse as possible. The strategy is obvious. Large ships and many of them are sent to each likely world. Those ships take on native life from geographically diverse areas to assure a genetic mix. On civilized worlds, they settle over cities to reduce the distance the native life must be transported. Why take an intelligent species? I think it's because intelligent food animals would require less effort to care for once they were properly domesticated. In our case, we simply proved too intractible and the Visitors left quickly, to cover their losses. Note that they did get away with 50 motherships full of uncounted millions of frozen humans. Why sneak about in plastic bodysuits? I think it's just to make it easier for them to gather as many of us as possible as easily as possible. After all, we don't slaughter cattle in the field and drag them to the butcher; we make them walk to the slaughterhouse under their own power. Dragging a hostile native population in from the hills is an expensive proposition, since they'll be fighting a guerilla action on their own home territory. If wearing an uncomfortable bodymask and lying through your pointed teeth for a few years is the alternative to decades of guerilla war, it starts to look attractive. Why steal water? This one's simple. Water is too easy to manufacture from common elements for it to be in short supply for a spacefaring race. However, if your ships require water for fusion fuel (or cooling, or whatever) and you're already going down into a gravity well for supplies, there's no reason not to pick up a few million gallons while you're there. ("John, honey, would you mind getting gas while you're going to Earth? The tank was three-quarters empty last night.") However, not even I can explain the ending. I think that "Elizardbeth" (not original with me) reached across the universes and through time and space to tap into the energy generated at the end of "Star Trek - the Motionless Picture I"... Another modern Just-So Story from David D. Levine (...decvax!tektronix!tekecs!davidl) [UUCP] (...tekecs!davidl.tektronix@rand-relay) [ARPA] (By the way, I can't resist mentioning that every time they showed the aliens' headquarters in Los Angeles I thought of it as the "LA convention and Visitors' bureau.") ------------------------------ Date: 19 May 84 17:04 EDT (Sat) From: Mijjil (Matthew J Lecin) Subject: Shoot 'em in the right shoulder! Has it not come into anyone else's mind, that perhaps, the RIGHT side of the chest is where the "Visitor"'s HEARTS might be found? This would make some sense if the right side of the chest was the most common target... {Mijjil} ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 84 12:44:43-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!uw-june!moriarty @ Ucb-Vax Subject: V: The Series worse than Lost in Space? Gosh, we can get Robby the Robot out of the Universal props section, and he can wander around detecting aliens and going "Danger! Danger!" And Robin reminded me a little of Dr. Smith (imagine Dr. Smith pregnant with an alien! I imagine it would mean that someone would have to explain the birds and the bees to Will & Penny (and perhaps Judy & Don)). The Napoleon of Crime Currently skulking around UUCP: MORIARTY {ihnp4,decvax,tektronix}! uw-beaver!uw-june!moriarty ARPANET: AKA -jwm- moriarty@washington ------------------------------ Date: 17 May 84 9:13:12-PDT (Thu) From: ihnp4!houxm!hocda!hou3c!burl!ulysses!gamma!pyuxww!pyuxn!rlr @ From: Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: How to get rich with a time machine - (nf) What about buying the newspaper from the day after the $20,000,000 lottery numbers are drawn by leaping into the future and leaping back to buy the ticket? How do we know this hasn't been done? Never ASSUME, because when you ASSUME, you make an ASS out of U and ME... Rich Rosen pyuxn!rlr ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 84 12:32:42 EDT From: Saul Subject: The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 9 Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net Episode 9 .-----------. ! _ _ ! .-! /* *\ !-. \! O !/ ! ! ! .-----. ! ! ' ` ! `-----------' !! !! Martin (The crew of the Infinity is continuing on their way to find the explanation to Life, the Net, and Everything. It is a unbelievably long trip. It is also notably nasty as Martin insists on droning on and on about what a waste of time it all is and how it will probably be quite depressing once the destination is reached and so on. Off in the distance, they hear pounding type noises. The sounds appear to be getting closer.) Gillian: What do you think it is? Arnold Lint: I don't know. Zaphod: Maybe it's some new and amazingly interesting people. Martin: I hope not. Rod: It's definitely getting closer, let's duck out of sight just to be safe. (Rod and company duck behind a nearby paperweight. The pounding sounds can now be identified as the sounds of people running. Mixed in is a metalic clinking sound and various shouts and yells. As the sound gets closer, Arnold discerns that there is also a splatting type of sound mixed in.) Arnold Lint: What is that? Zaphod: Could be a Rigelian Megapede. Rod: Or a Richard Simmons show. (The source of the sound now comes into view. The first thing seen is a group of seven joggers, of various ages, sexes, and creeds, running for all they are worth. Close on their heels are two blokes in a Land Rover, they each wield a large club and a large can of beer. They are, in fact, none other than Australian Joggering champions Bruce Karnage and Bruce Bludletter.) Bruce: Here Bruce, get closer and I'll get another. Bruce: Right Bruce. Bruce: Naw, closer, Bruce. Bruce: Pass me a beer, Bruce. Bruce: Right Bruce. (The Land Rover approaches the slowest jogger and Bruce pockets him in the corner with a polo-like shot to the head, causing little bits of brain to spurt out his ears.) Bruce: That was lovely, Bruce! Bruce: Thank you, Bruce. (The joggers and the joggerers depart, the racket follows them, as well it should.) Rod: That was great, what a shot. Arnold Lint: That was awful, how viscious and cruel. Martin: I don't know, I almost enjoyed it. Gillian: What do they call that. Zaphod: That's joggering, lovely sport. Rod: Let's go already. Arnold Lint: What a savage Net we live in. [**************************************************************** "The Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net" indicates that one of the most savage races in the known Net are the Incindarans. These types make the normal Flamers look like choir boys. These types liked to censor shows like "8 is Enough" due to it's immoral plot lines. They even went so far as to publish 'G' rated versions of the Old, New, and Video Testaments (blessed be the Holy Box). Legend has it that their system was kept off the Net for a long period of time. Their system lords felt that this would be best in light of the tendencies of those in the system. Things got so bad in Incindara that the system lords decided they better find someone else to fight before they wiped themselves out. So the Incindaran system was let onto the Net. They were so busy fighting amongst each other that nobody noticed the portal to the Net. An errant message found its way to Incindara which made them all realise that they were not alone. They selected their most learned scholar, Clyd Noeitall, to investigate the wonderous Net. It was the first time Incindara had taken enough time out from fighting to do anything. It was indeed a great day. He and his colleages than set out and talked with the Net for the first time. Unfortunately, they came in right in the middle of the debates over Big Mac's. Upon seeing this, Clyd turned to his colleague and said: "No, it's all got to go". Following this they began to systematically torch almost every place in the Net. A long war followed in which the Incindarans lost badly. The Net, being a bit ticked off, decided on a punishment that suited the crime. They took away all the 'n' keys on every terminal in Incindara. Unfortunately, they forgot to make Incindara a read-only location, allowing the Incindarans to verbally flame. The few Incindarans who survived can still be found flaming at will about everything they read (which is everything as there are no 'n' keys). The once proud and feared Incindarans have been reduced to ranting about Burger King, drunk drivers, sterilizing non-supporters of ERA, and so on. "The Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net" warns all Net travellers that when such types are encountered, the best course of action is to abort the debate, as it is probably pointless anyway. *****************************************************************] ******************** End Of Part 9 ******************** What is the explanation of Life, the Net, and Everything? How did Bruce do? Did Bruce get his beer. Is Brooke Shields an Alien? To find out . . . Tune in next time . . . same Net-time . . . same Net-channel. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 22-May SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #99 *** EOOH *** Date: 22 May 84 1430-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #99 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 22 May 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 99 Today's Topics: Books - Dewdney (2 msgs) & Sex in SF (2 msgs) & Computer Crime in SF & A Guide to Elvish, Miscellaneous - Theory of Relativity (2 msgs) & SF vs Mainstream Fiction & SF vs Sci-Fi & Planetary Destruction Plans & What is SF? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 21 May 84 15:01:30 EDT From: Craig MacFarlane Subject: Planiverse Cc: vlsi@dec-marlboro.arpa Hello, After flipping through Planiverse at a book store I couldn't put it down. The hook was the logistics of a 2D world and its inhabitants. Overall I enjoyed it a lot, but I got mixed up a the end. Either he didn't quite know how to end it or I just missed his point. Please would someone explain it to me. Thanks, craig 3D address: cmacfarl@bbnccj ------------------------------ Date: 19 May 84 11:03:41-PDT (Sat) From: ihnp4!mit-eddie!gds @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: review of 'The Planiverse' - (nf) When I think of 2-D, I think in the x-y plane, not the x-z plane. In the x-y plane, there is no such thing as "down", "under", etc. To take your analogy, ask a kindergarten to draw what lies behind the house. Can't be done in the x-z plane. I always thought the traditional way of 2-D thinking was in the x-y plane. Mayhaps we have a "visitor" on the net :-) Be ye moby, for I am moby. Greg Skinner (gregbo) {decvax!genrad, eagle!mit-vax, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gds Joy is in the ears that hear. ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 1984 1136 PDT From: Alvin Wong Subject: Sex in SF Edmund Cooper has published books circulating in the US. I have his "The Slaves of Heaven" and "A Far Sunset". There is some free sex just for a taste. "Astra and Flondrix" was written by Seamus Cullen. Wasting time is an important part of life... Alvin ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 84 04:50:17 EDT From: Liz Subject: sex in sf Remember BUG JACK BARRON by Spinrad...if you consider it SF (and I do), there is some early sex in sf. If I remember rightly - Andrew Offut used to write porno for Pinnacle, Club Car and Orpheus Books. Some of the funniest porno I have ever read. liz// ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 84 15:07:52-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!akgua!clyde!watmath!utzoo!dciem!ntt @ From: Ucb-Vax Subject: Pointer to survey of computer crime in SF I have posted to net.mag the table of contents of Abacus magazine for spring 1984. Here, I would just like to point out the cover story*, which is a survey of computer crime in fact and, for most of the article, in SF. 20-30 different books and stories are listed and many are discussed, including some of my favorites such as Brunner's "The Shockwave Rider", and others I haven't heard of. *The cover is a smashing (pun) picture of a knife blade entering a CRT screen and drawing (green) blood and sparks. Abacus costs $4.95 in the US. I don't know how widely it is available, because I subscribed from issue 1, and I haven't regretted it. Mark Brader ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 84 21:35:20-PDT (Sun) From: ihnp4!mhuxl!ulysses!allegra!princeton!tilt!smw @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Fictional languages: a guide to Elvish Robert Schroeck of Princeton University, in response to my guide to the Klingonese language in net.startrek, has compiled a guide to the Elvish, from Tolkien's works. With Bob's kind permission, now you too can speak Quenya and Sindarin. It's over 700 lines, so I've posted it to net.sources. (People in ARPA-land, that's the UNIX-SOURCES mailing list.) Those of you interested in fictional languages, enjoy it! Bob can be reached via BITNET at rms@puccuts.BITNET, by way of your friendly BITNET gateway (probably ucbvax/Berkeley). As for me, I'm... Stewart Wiener / Princeton Univ. EECS / princeton!tilt!smw Graduating & seeking work... can YOUR site use an entry-level Unix programmer? ------------------------------ Date: 17 May 84 12:39:24-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!jonab @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Death Star weapon. > steven@qubix.UUCP (Steve Maurer) writes: > > > FTL is *IMPOSSIBLE* DO YOU HEAR ME???? > YOU HAVE A BETTER CHANCE AT MAKING A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE > THAN YOU HAVE AT MAKING AN FTL DRIVE!!!! > assert(flame). People who live in grass huts shouldn't throw flames! Before you flam at someone, make sure you know what you are talking about also. > I find it somewhat humorous (in a sick sort of way) that people > who are supposed to be as intelligent as SF readers, can > totally ignore the findings of Einstein -- without even > bothering to read or understand them. I find it humorous (in a sad sort of way) that people who are supposed to be as intelligent as USENET news readers ;-} can totally ignore the findings of Einstein -- without even bothering to read or understand them. 1) There is no intelligence prerequisite to reading SF or USENET news. People who read SF tend to be above average in intelligence, but that is not necessarily so. Your flame is only an ad hominim attack against someone who was posting an article in fun anyway. > What Einstein discovered, is a new (UNBREAKABLE) law: much like > the Second Law of Thermodynamics. And ALL THE FUTURE SCIENCE > IN THE WORLD, will not change it, or allow one to get around it > somehow. Let's examine what Einstein "discovered": Einstein didn't discover anything in his Theories of Relativity. What he did was postulate a new physical world view based on a couple of simple postulates. 1) The laws of physics are unchanged with respect to any observer in a inertial reference frame. 2) The speed of light is measured as a constant for all observers. First, we must realize that Relativity is only a very well substantiated theory. No one has and probably no one EVER will prove it as true. The second postulate above, is one of the laws of physics mentioned in the first postulate. However, that postulate only comes from the observations of researchers in the late 19 century, not as a fact handed down by divine inspiration. These observers have only been able to make their measurments of the speed of light in a non-inertial reference frame, where all bets are off and the Special Theory of Relativity does not apply. Thus, we don't even know what physics is like in a TRUE inertial reference frame, because we don't live in one, and no matter where we go, we will NEVER find one. (There is always an acceleration due to gravity that makes the fram non-inertial, no matter where we go.) So Relativity can be called a very good guess. > The "hyperspace" excuse, arises from an incomplete > understanding of what Einstein discovered: you cannot "go > around" the distance, because the very act of APPEARING at a > place before light gets there, is exactly equivalent to going > backwards through time. If you assume that travel by hyperspace is the process of leaving normal space and re-entering elsewhere, then Relativity precludes that form of travel, IF the theory is true. (Actually I wonder whether the theory holds up when one takes it to the limit with singularities like infinite velocity.) If hpyerspace travel is, instead, a method of changing the laws of physics in the local area of space, (such as increasing the speed of light in a limited area), then Relativity could hold and yet from an outside observer, it would appear that one was travelling faster than light. (The observer would probably see you arrive before you left, but that can happen even when you travel at less than the speed of light because of acceleration. retract(flame). PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, do not think that just because a new Theory has been discovered that changed or disproved the old theories, then it must be true. We have only extended our knowledge of the universe, we have not proved that there is nothing more to be learned. Jon Biggar {allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,sdccsu3}!sdcrdcf!jonab P. S. If you are wondering what my qualifications are, I have a B. A. in Engineering/Physics. However, I would need many, many more years of study before I could fully appreciate the works of Einstein. That stuff is hard to read! ------------------------------ Date: 17 May 84 18:26:45-PDT (Thu) From: pur-ee!ecn-ee!kechkayl @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Death Star weapon. - (nf) >What Einstein discovered, is a new (UNBREAKABLE) law: much like >the Second Law of Thermodynamics. And ALL THE FUTURE SCIENCE >IN THE WORLD, will not change it, or allow one to get around it >somehow. My, my, my! Such vehemence! I guess we have discovered someone that does not know that it is the THEORY (hint: !law) of Relativity. I thought that one of the basics of the scientific method was that theories can (and must) be changed to fit newly discovered facts. If something is discovered that contradict the THEORY, the theory must be changed to cover the fact. ALL you can say is that the theory appears to describe reality fairly well. Thomas Ruschak pur-ee!kechkayl "Aiee! A toy robot!" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 84 16:04:07 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: Re: Troubled writer Since it seems that there are others out there who agree with Jeff Duntemann's opinion that sf is destined to wipe out mainstream fiction, I feel compelled to respond at more length. You claim that the best works of sf outstrip mainstream fiction. Put up or shut up. What are these wondrous works, and why, with a handful of exceptions, haven't I read them or heard of them in my fairly wide experience in the sf field? Why do I still find the best of recent mainstream fiction better? As far as Suford Lewis' points are concerned, he seems to be laboring under the misconception that "mainstream" implies "realism". Not really true, according to a rigorous definition of realism, and since this kind of definition is the one that Lewis uses to dismiss mainstream fiction, I don't really think this is a good argument. Is "Ulysses" realistic? How many of us sf fans are ready to clasp it to our bosoms as part and parcel of science fiction? No one who has read his works would classify Faulkner as a realistic author, but his works certainly aren't science fiction. Remember, no one is trying to make out that James Michener and Harold Robbins write better stuff than the best sf. If you want to make the kind of claim we've been hearing, you have to go up against the big boys with the big talents. By the way, novels were not invented in the 18th century, they were just popularized then. Petronius wrote a novel about contemporary Rome called "The Satyricon" back in BC days. Also, a great deal of poetry, ancient and modern, deals with contemporary settings without fantastic or mythic elements. Since poetry was the major literary form until the last couple of centuries, it doesn't pay to overlook this. It could also be argued that the reason that fantastic elements play less part in modern literature is due to the fact that many old beliefs have been demonstrated to be untrue, by science, and that much of what we today call fantasy was viewed as plain truth when written. I see no evidence that sf is destined to either defeat or swallow mainstream fiction. The best sf of the last ten years is certainly better than the best sf of the previous thirty, but I would attribute that to a maturing of the form, not incipient conquest. The fact that a few sf books (not nearly the best ones) are making the best seller lists can be attributed to this maturing process and to a current trend for fantasy and escapism. Finally, both Lewis and Duntemann seem to be implying that existentialism, which so offended them in college, is the philosophy behind most recent fiction. In truth, just about the only existentialist still practicing is Samuel Beckett. Existentialism is now just a part of the cultural backdrop for modern literature, and receives little more attention (in fact, probably less) than Plato. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Sun 20 May 84 03:00:15-EDT From: Peter G. Trei Subject: SF vs sci-fi. Faannish nomenclature: Forry Ackermann did indeed invent the term 'sci-fi' (sigh-fie, after hi-fi) to refer to ALL forms of science fiction. It never really caught on among fandom, where the prefered term remained 'SF' (ess-eff). The mundane world seized upon sci-fi, and its use or non-use remains a touchstone for dividing trufans from mundanes, with the following exception: In one of the early editions of Issac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine, Issac, in discussing Star Wars and other 'media' science fiction from sources outside the normal genre, proposed that 'sci-fi' should be reserved for SW, Battlestar Galaxia, and other works of that ilk (V is a perfect example). He also suggested that it be pronounced 'skiffy', and you will occasionally hear it used in this way at conventions. You will also see some fans with buttons reading 'End faanish elitism. Call it SCI-FI!'. Frankly, I prefer SF to sci-fi. I feel it sounds less silly, and includes the more general term 'Speculative Fiction' (is that a redundancy?). One other term which has fallen by the wayside is 'scientifiction' (aka stf, pronounced 'stiff'), which was invented by Hugo Gernsback back in the 30's for one of his magazines. It is now of only historical interest. from the trivia files of: Peter Trei ARPA: oc.trei%cu20b@columbia-20 x-ma-bell: h: 212-569-2371/0282 w: 212-815-3711 ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 84 12:13:22-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!shark!hutch @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Planetary destruction plans One thing that may be being overlooked is the source of the higher-numbered elements. There is to my knowledge no reason for the Big Bang to have produced anything more complicated than hydrogen, directly. I always understood that the reason for the existence of the other elements was fusion, that is, big star forms, fuses all sorts of things, expels them via one method or another (novas, etc) and then they are available to coalesce into stars and such. Of course, if I have completely got this wrong, then some astrophysicist reader might be polite enough to explain the reason why there is any Uranium left anywhere at all? Hutch ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 84 9:39:00-PDT (Tue) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uokvax!erlsmith @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: "What is SF" - (nf) while watching a recent interview on the arts channel on tv, issac asimov might have given us the answer. "people who read science fiction are usually of an above average intelligence." Q.E.D. -eric l. smith !ctvax!uokvax!erlsmith ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 24-May SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #100 *** EOOH *** Date: 24 May 84 0958-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #100 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 24 May 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 100 Today's Topics: Television - V: The Final Battle (4 msgs), Miscellaneous - How to Get Rich (2 msgs) & Literature & The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 10 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Date: 20 May 84 17:18:25 EDT Subject: Plot Killer Mark I All this talk about why V is bad is like chewing copies to see if they taste as bad as they look. Save your teeth. They do. The longer we look at the problems of FTL space travel, the harder it seems to be, and therefore the more advanced technologically we will have to be to achieve it. So lately I've started looking askance at plots which have someone or someones going beyond their stellar system looking for an answer to a physical/biological problem. It seems to me that any race of creatures sufficiently technologically advanced to cross interstellar distances have sufficient technology to solve ANY physical/biological problem without leaving the system. In other words, if the Vizzards have energy and smarts enough to come from the Vizzard planet here to get water, they can damned well transmute their old gym socks (or anything else) into all the water they need. The energy implied by interstellar travel suggests energy enough to build huge ecospheres out of whole cloth to replace hopelessly polluted planetary ecosystems. I call this Plot Killer #1, in the interest of avoiding having someone call it Duntemann's Law. I also have a (marginally related) Plot Killer #2: Given sufficient energy, nothing is so hard to synthesize that it justifies crossing interstellar space to fetch. In other words, the plot of Norstrilia collapses because any race advanced enough to build starships can take a sample of stroon (an immortality drug which can be bought by anyone with the equivalent of a few kilobucks) and duplicate it. Insisting that stroon can be grown only on Norstrilia is technologically absurd. We can forgive Cordwainer Smith for this. It is much harder to forgive Herbert for hanging his entire, interminable Dune saga on a geriatric spice which can be found only on Dune. Horse cookies. In such a future, nothing can be found in Just One Place. Anything which starcrossing people want badly enough (and immortality drugs certainly qualify) they will have, right out of their little gene-splicer/transmutation labs. Herbert claims to be a scientist; he should have known better. I am gradually coming to believe that it would be easier to make an entire second Earth from scratch than to relieve population pressures by interstellar colonization. All yagatta do is grind up Europa and sprinkle it on Mars... Star travel is a bitch... --Jeff Duntemann duntemann.wbst@xerox ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 1984 1520 PDT From: Alvin Wong Subject: V : Invasion of the Space Nazis from Dry Space ; The Final Subject: Blunder I always thought ice takes up more volume than water, mole for mole. Alvin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 1984 21:13 EDT From: RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: harpo!ulysses!allegra!alice!alb@UCB-VAX.ARPA Subject: Nonsense in V > Vader didn't off the Emperor, though. Did we watch the same movie? I sure thought I saw Vader throw the Emperor down a big shaft. Perhaps you mean to say that Vadar didn't kill the Emperor for personal advancement. James ------------------------------ Date: 19 May 84 16:30:39-PDT (Sat) From: ihnp4!mit-eddie!gds @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Invasion of the Space Nazis, the final battle > Oh well. Can't be much worse than Lost in Space. Or can it? It is ridiculous to compare Lost in Space and Invasion of the Space Nazis. Lost in Space was adventure/comedy and was not to be taken seriously. Obviously, V was meant to be taken seriously, as proof of this, many netters have attempted to defend some of the scientific aspects of the show. :-) Speaking as a Lost in Space fan for life Be ye moby, for I am moby. Greg Skinner (gregbo) {decvax!genrad, eagle!mit-vax, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gds Joy is in the ears that hear. ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 84 1:24:00-PDT (Mon) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uok!crigney @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: How to get rich with a time machine - (nf) As an example, take Patton near the end of the European conflict in WWII. His push northward into Germany was halted due to a lack of fuel. Since, in an historical sense, the Allies were destined to win anyway, it may not have made a great deal of difference who reached Berlin first. Patton would have liked to do it himself and I'm sure, if offered the fuel from somewhere, he would have paid enough for it to make it worth one's while. Joel has some good ideas, but I must disagree with this one. What would Patton pay for the fuel with? And massive quantities of fuel are required; I can't believe you could operate on that kind of a scale without someone getting curious ("You want 5000 gallons of Petrol delivered to your home?" "Say, George, how are you moving along when we're not allocating you any fuel?" "Sure this is a military surplus shop, but we just don't carry 105mm shells. What do ya want them for, anyway?" all spring to mind. Of course, you could always steal it from someone else's supply dump; but for that matter you could materialize inside a major bank's vault and make off with their cash or gold - preferably just before a major fire or disaster.) Had Patton reached Berlin ahead of the Russians, the world could be incredibly different - Germany would not have been partitioned, and a united Germany on the western side would make a major difference in the current European Balance. Finding people who need a drink of water would be difficult, too. And how much money are they likely to have on them? (Or you could let them die of thirst and *take* their money.) The gold rush merchandising sounds good, but why not look up the sites of the richest strikes, and then sell the information for a half-share? Then just have it deposited in some stable bank or company stock, and return to your present to enjoy the results. Ambushing a gold-laden Spanish expedition returning from the new world would be profitable, but would require an extensive outlay for the weapons and men to pull it off. And is immoral besides, for those who care about such matters. Carl ..!ctvax!uokvax!uok!crigney ..!duke!uok!crigney ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 21 May 1984 06:22:33-PDT From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Brendan E. Boelke) Subject: How to get rich using time travel Why be so extravagant? Go down to your local state Lottery commission and pick up a list of the winning numbers for the last year or so. Hop back with a few hundred bucks, and get lucky! Sure, you'll have to pay tax, but then less suspicion is brought on you. Don't get greedy though, or they may just stop the lottery. (For a one-time hit, win the New York Lotto the week before it got to $18 Million). /BEB ------------------------------ From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Date: 21 May 84 16:32:52 EDT Subject: The literature of despair Re Ron Cain's note in SFL V9#93; I shan't repeat it here... Apparently what all that means is that you agree with me. Mostly. There are indeed two cultures, as you will find if you ever attempt to speak hard physics or even math as simple as calculus 1 to an (ordinary) English major. Not only don't such people know physics or math, there is a powerful statistical tendency for them to look down their noses on people who do. That is a mighty heavy rift, as far as I'm concerned. In general, scientific/engineering types look upon art and literature as frosting on their cake. Liberal arts types see it as the whole cake. What we got here is a failure to communicate. And educate. And maybe something considerably worse. Now then. "Science fiction has not matured in forty years." Wow. Read your typical Doc Smith novel of the forties, and then come back and read The Left Hand of Darkness or Startide'Rising or The Shadow of the Torturer and tell me that again. Or are these not SF in your view? They sure are in mine. Mainstream is dead. It is dead because it has despaired, and despair is a death of the spirit, and literature is the mapping of the spirit upon the language of the culture. I read most of the Great Writers (mainstream flavor) from Hemingway and Fitzgerald on down through Camus and Grass and Bellow as simply giving up. Nothing makes sense. The gods are against us. It's all pointless. One by one we turn into rhinoceri. Despair. I will allow that any single person may justifiably despair, but when a writer claims that despair is one facet or the major facet of universal truth, I laugh a graveyard laugh and punt the book at the wall. SF hasn't despaired yet. It will prevail. It will in fact merge (if you want to call it that) with mainstream by absorbing what is left of the mainstream after the despairers have shrivelled up and blown away. SF is the literature of hope. Serious studiers of SF don't put artificial boundaries around it anymore. I certainly don't. From ten steps back, it looks like we agree. Only our definitions differ. Thanks for the endorsement. --Jeff Duntemann duntemann.wbst@xerox ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 84 12:33:42 EDT From: Saul Subject: The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 10 Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net Episode 10 (Zaphod, Rod, Gillian, and Marvin are still on their way to find out more about Life, the Net, and Everything. From off in the distance they hear a hollow roar punctuated by gunfire. Before they have a chance to grasp the situation, a huge battle tank screeches to a halt in front of them. It is a fearsome device with great nasty teeth painted on it. The cannon looks as if it could punch a hole through a small planet. A hatch opens and a rightly uniformed man steps out, crushing a passing cat under his boot.) Cat: (splat) Rod: Wh . . . who are you? Roarin' George: I'm General Roarin' George Pahton. I heard there was some Singularans around here. Thought I'd do some American style joggering. Zaphod: Oh yeah, they went that a way. Arnold Lint: Why does everyone pick on the Singularans? They only seek meaningful personal relationships with people they find special. Roarin' George: Right, that's it, we're gonna have some order around here. No more of these damn cliches. From here on out, the following rules will apply: Anyone who uses the phrases 'special', 'personal relationship', or 'meaningful relationship' WILL be fined twenty dollars for the first offense. Subsequent offenders will have their genitalia removed with a sharp rock. Anyone who corrects the spelling of another, WILL be fined 100 dollars. I won't stand for any namby-pamby intellectuals checking spelling when there's so much to do. Anyone caught agreeing with anything an oppositly gendered personnel says in an obvious attempt to make points, WILL have both kneecaps shattered with a ball-pean hammer. Likewise, anyone saying things which are right out of soap operas with the intentions mentioned above WILL also have his (or her) kneecaps shattered with a ball-pean hammer. Remember, this is the NET, it's tough out there. Keep your emotions to yourself, do you want a bunch of commies to read that gooey crap? Why they'll think we're wimps, then they'll invade. They've started infiltrating already - ever been to one of the dating service places? They're all commies, draining away our precious bodily fluids. Now, get back to work! (With that, he climbs back into the tank and drives off, casually blowing a 4 foot hole in a nearby wall. Just then, the 12" CRT on Zaphod's shoulder springs to life. On it is a man in a white suit with a bible in one hand and a microphone in the other. He speaks: "Friends. Why are we here today? We are here to hear the words - (Amen) - to hear the holy words from the Holy Box - (Amen). Oh blessed be the Holy Box, and it's disciples: Prophit Ronko, Prophit K-Dul, and the Prophit Popeel - (Amen Amen Amen). Yes, they lead is to immaculate spending. We here at the Church of the Divine Vision believe in Johnny and Merv and Mike. TV is the reflection of life, and life is a reflection of reality, therefore TV IS REALITY. Yes, Mrs. Olson may be a Nazi, but if you buy Foljers, you can bake just like her. And Robert Yung may have multiple personalities and a penchant for farm animals, but if you drink his coffee, you can remain calm in the midst of a nuclear explosion . . . ") Rod: Shut that OFF. Zaphod: Bloody religious fanatics. Arnold Lint: What an odd religion, worshipping a TV, seems hard to believe. Martin: Not really, just another awful attempt to deal with this miserable Net. It's all a cop out. You can't understand something so you pretend that there is something else in control. It's all rubbish. Gillian: Quiet. Of course there's a supreme being. Martin: If you say so, but if God didn't already exist, he would have to be invented. Rod: It's hopeless talking to him. [******************************************************************* "The Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net" indicates that the members of the Church of the Divine Vision are basically agnostics. They prefer to believe what they see on the tube to what some half starved people wrote about over 2000 years ago. They can't meet God, but if the TV gives them trouble, they can always replace it. Their belief led to the writing of the Video Testament, which is the gospel for all believers in the Holy Box. Although it seems unlikely, the Church of the Divine Vision was supposed to have formed some amazing concepts as to how the Net exists. *******************************************************************] Gillian: Let's go. Martin: Do we have to? (They all ignore Martin and press on. Two days later they arrive at their destination. In front of them is a rather bug-eyed looking lizard.) Zaphod: Hey man, are you the one with the dope on Life, the Net, and Everything. Lizard: Yes, I am Teddy the Wonder Lizard. I know all there is to know about Life, the Net, and Everything. Rod: Well, tell us! Gillian: Please do! Teddy: You won't like it. Martin: (sarcasticly) Now that's a real surprise. Teddy: Are you sure you want to know? Arnold Lint: Yes, what is it, got to more than forty-bloody-two. Teddy: Yes, that was the answer we told the Net. We figured that the real answer was so awful, they'd rather get something vague and argue about it forever. Zaphod: Well, out with it. Teddy: It's all here, in the Video Testament! (He hands Zaphod an old looking book, pops about a dozen valiums, and then switches on a nearby TV set. He is watching 'Real People'.) Zaphod: Well, that should finish him off. Arnold Lint: The drugs? Rod: No, 'Real People', lowers the IQ so much that the brain just packs it in and you die. Gillian: Find the answer already! Zaphod: Okay, now lets see . . . ******************** End Of Part 10 ******************** What is the answer to Life, the Net, and Everything? Why are we here? Are we here? And why is it that vampires never attack Jewish nieghborhoods? For the answers to some of these questions . . . Tune in next time . . . same Net-time . . . same Net-channel. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 24-May SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #101 *** EOOH *** Date: 24 May 84 1031-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #101 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 24 May 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 101 Today's Topics: Books - Kurland & The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction & Cthulhu Mythos, Films - Roll-Your-Own Films (2 msgs) & Questions for Directors & Film News & Star Trek (2 msgs) & Star Wars, Television - Spectre, Miscellaneous - The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 11 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 May 1984 22:45-EST From: Robert.Stockton@CMU-CS-SPICE.ARPA Subject: Re: Michael Kurland I have long been attempting to acquire a complete collection of Kurland myself. While I have not succeeded, I believe I can at least provide a fairly complete list of his books. These include: Tomorrow Knight The Whenabouts of Burr Transmission Error Psi-hunt Pluribus The Unicorn Girl War Incorporated: Mission: Third Force Mission: Tank War A Plague of Spies "The Unicorn Girl" is, interestingly enough, the second book in a trilogy, with the first being "The Butterfly Kid" by Chester Anderson and the third being (something like) "The Probability Pad" by (probably) Tom Waters. In addition he has collaborated with Chester Anderson to produce "Ten Years to Doomsday", and expanded an outline by H. Beam Piper to produce "First Cycle". "The Unicorn Girl" includes the following Author's Biography: Mister Kurland is a thin, tense young man with wire-rimmed glasses and the perpetually frightened look of a rabbit with an invitation to lunch at the Lion's Club. He has a Doctorate in Ecdysiology, and his first published work was his thesis: Cultural Patterns of Migrant Brooklyn Apple-Pickers With Reference to the Prevalence, Utility, Adaptability and Social Standing of Ecdysiasts Within the Group-Standard Milieu. It was published as in illustrated children's book under the title She Stripped for Cider, and went into three printings. He has worked as a wire-stapler, a barrel-staver, a window-washer, a herring-kipperer, a Scotch-tippler and a peck-of-pickled-peppers-picker. This diversified background has given him the wealth of experience which has so far proved totally useless for writing science fiction. He is now living and working on a houseboat on the Dhama river in Northern Thibeth, but will soon be moving back to the United States as he finds it hard to concentrate during the six hours a day in which the boat is submerged. His present project is a dictionary which will conform to his unique ideas regarding English spelling. Robert Stockton rgs@CMU-CS-SPICE By the way, I will be very interested in any information leading to the capture or sale (to me) of the above-mentioned "Probability Pad". ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 84 16:34:21-PDT (Mon) From: decvax!dartvax!markv @ Ucb-Vax Subject: The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction Does anyone out there know if a second edition of "The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction" (edited by Peter Nichols, et al.) is either out or being planned? This book is by far the most complete and useful SF document that I've seen, but since it was published in 1977, it is rapidly becoming rather dated. Anybody have any clues? Mark Vita Dartmouth College {decvax,cornell,linus}!dartvax!markv ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 May 84 17:17 MST From: "James J. Lippard" Subject: Cthulhu Mythos One book I didn't see on your list was "Mysteries of the Worm", by Robert Bloch. ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 84 21:21 EDT (Mon) From: Mijjil (Matthew J Lecin) Subject: roll-your-own-films Hmn. What about letting Spielberg make a few "Stainless Steel Rat" films? {Mijjil} ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 84 11:58:55-PDT (Fri) From: ihnp4!ihuxp!wbpesch @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Roll-your-own (Alien characters in films) I would say the best would have to be doing an on-screen creation of Poul Anderson's Dominick Flandry. it would be entertaining, easy to identify with, and fun! Walt Pesch AT&T Technologies ihnp4!ihuxp!wbpesch ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 84 17:58:21-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!uw-june!m From: oriarty @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Ask Some directors of Summer SF & Fantasy films a question! in-depth questions! The directors and movies I'll be seeing are: JOE DANTE GREMLINS June 1st Dante's previous work has included "The Howling", a wonderful spoof on werewolf movies (one of my favorites), and the "It's a Good Life" episode of the Twilight Zone movie. JOHN SAYLES THE BROTHER FROM ANOTHER PLANET May 26th Sayles was the writer/director for "Return of the Secaucus Seven", "Lianna", and "Baby, It's You", and the screenwriter for "The Howling", "Piranha", and "Alligator" (he can really do great satires when he feels like it); he is also a well-known author (I've seen him in the New Yorker several times, so I guess that fills the bill). AARON LIPSTADT CITY LIMITS June 2nd Director of "Android" (in fact, almost everyone involved in "Android" is involved in "City Limits"). A major note: I will be competing with other people for Q/A time. Also, I can decide not to ask a question on the grounds that I'd be embarrassed to ask it. Two things readily come to mind: questions about the director's personal life, and questions whose answers are readily available in books. Examples are "Have you divorced Elizabeth Taylor?", "What's Steven Spielberg REALLY like?","Who played the mutated dwarf in the space meanies scene...?" Perhaps good questions would be in the vein of "How do YOU handle science fiction, etc.?" as all three of these are fantasy and sci-fi films. I'll reply to your letters about question status, etc. I'll report other people's questions, too, if they are interesting. Well, I look forward to hearing from you... thanks in advance. "He's everywhere! He's everywhere!" Moriarty (aka Jeff Meyer) UUCP: {ihnp4,cornell,decvax,tektronix}!uw-beaver!uw-june!moriarty ARPANET: moriarty@washington ------------------------------ Date: 24 May 84 22:55:13-EDT (Thu) From: ihnp4!alberta!syali @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: film news >From: Peter Reiher > >"Supergirl" has been delayed in release until Christmas. Wolfgang >Petersen (directed "Das Boot" and the upcoming "The Neverending >Story") has replaced the previous director, whose name escapes me >but was not familiar, on a science fiction film called "Enemy >Mine". I've never heard of it before. It's currently shooting in >Iceland, and it's budget is in the $15-$20 million range, and >rising. > Peter Reiher > reiher@ucla-cs.arpa There's a short story by Barry B. Longyear (sp?), which I liked rather a lot, called "Enemy Mine". I have the vague impression that it won a Hugo or Nebula (or both) a couple of years ago. If anybody out there knows if this film is based on the same story could they inform the world (particularly myself, I really liked that story!). Any info on release dates etc. would also be nice... Cheers, Sy Ali (...!alberta!syali) ------------------------------ Date: 23 May 84 20:47:00-EDT (Wed) From: harpo!ulysses!allegra!princeton!tilt!smw @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Roll-your-own (Alien characters in f The GREAT lines from Greg Skinner's article: >Organization: MIT Lusers and Hosers Inc., Cambridge, Ma. (cute, and users of 'notes' missed it) >Joy is in the ears that hear. (another Saltheart Foamfollower fan!) The ones that inspire the followup: >Spock is hardly an alien -- I tend to think of him more as a >foreigner with different customs. Spock IS an alien. It's thrown in our faces early and often; find humans who can develop the "customs" of telepathy, pon farr and plak tow (the physical problems during mating season), and green T-Negative blood. Listen to McCoy complain about Spock's alien physiology, as well as his philosophy. Perhaps it's a sign of just how well he's been characterized that you fail to see him as alien, an outsider. You know him well enough to count him as one of your own sociological group, though he would insist on not being included there. (Happened often in the closing scenes to the episodes.) Stewart Wiener / Princeton Univ. EECS / princeton!tilt!smw Graduating & seeking work... can YOUR site use an entry-level Unix programmer? ------------------------------ Date: 19 May 84 10:15:42-PDT (Sat) From: ihnp4!mit-eddie!gds @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Roll-your-own (Alien characters in films) Spock is hardly an alien -- I tend to think of him more as a foreigner with different customs. Perhaps Maia from Space 1999? Be ye moby, for I am moby. Greg Skinner (gregbo) {decvax!genrad, eagle!mit-vax, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gds Joy is in the ears that hear. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 84 21:32 EDT From: Aspnes@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: V and assorted Star Wars nonsense (1) Vader *did* kill the Emperor, though not quite so elegantly as with a gun. (2) Hypothesis: The Death Star takes advantage of non-linear effects at extremely high energy densities that allow it to violate the First Law of Thermodynamics. Consider: (a) the Death Star fires six secondary energy beams into a point in space, where they *vanish* momentarily before the primary and *visibly stronger* beam appears. (b) The energy density necessary to have visible light-beams in hard vacuum is enormous, or at least many orders of magnitude beyond anything we can generate or observe. (c) How do we know what kind of hell breaks loose at that rarified end of things? >>>> Conclusion: The Death Star is a perpetual-motion motor. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 May 84 11:33 PDT From: Harris Shiffman Subject: Spectre Yes, Gene Roddenberry's Spectre was done as a pilot. Robert Culp starred. As I recall, it was pretty strange stuff. ------------------------------ Date: 24 May 84 09:46:23 EDT From: Saul Subject: The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 11 Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net Episode 11 - Life, The Net, and Everything Part 1 (Xaphod, Rod, Gillian, and Arnold Lint have just received the 'Video Testament' - a scripture said to contain the answer to Life, the Net, and Everything.) Rod: Well, go on, read it. Arnold Lint: Do you think we should? Xaphod: Yah, why not. Martin: I can think of a few reasons. Gillian: Quiet, we're going to find out what it all means. Aren't you the least bit excited. Martin: (droning sarcasticly) Oh yes, I can hardly contain myself. Xaphod: Never mind him, lets read this amazingly amazing book. (They open the book and it speaks to them.) Book: Hark, who goest there. Rod: Uh, who are you? Book: I . . . am the Video Testament. The compendium of all knowledge and smart stuff from the mythical age of Kubla Konthemasus. You may call me . . . Ralph. [****************************************************************** "The Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net" has this to say about the mythical ruler Kubla Konthemasus: He was reported to be from Austria or Germany. He was supposed to be short and have a funny little mustache. He was supposed to have died in 1945 and then be reborn in Argentina. His followers looked upon him as a sort of Messiah, who lead them to the land of Silk and Money. All of this is, of course, purely hypothetical; as were Konthemasus' friends Herman (Hermie) McGoering, and Crazy Joe Stalinson. ******************************************************************] Xaphod: Ralph? Ralph: Well, what do you expect? Rod: Well, not Ralph. Gillian: Can you tell us . . . Ralph: The answer to Life, the Net, and Everything. Gillian: . . . why yes. Arnold Lint: That's amazing. Xaphod: To you it would be. Rod: Tell us what it all means. Ralph: You won't like it. Martin: That's no surprise. Xaphod: Just ignore him. Ralph: Well, it all began sometime in the 1950's. A group of very wealthy and powerful men assembled in Argentina under the guidance of a man calling himself Kubla Konthemasus. This group of magnates were from various political affiliations - Nazis, Communists, Capitalists, and Urologists. They all liked money and wanted to rule the world. They also realized that TV was going to be the tool that would give them the leverage they needed. Xaphod: I don't like the way this is starting to sound. Rod: Me neither. Ralph: I warned you. Martin: You should have listened to him. Arnold Lint: Go on. Ralph: Well, they began to infiltrate the TV industry. Soon they not only owned huge percentages of each network, but had also emplaced their own people into many of the creative positions at each network. Then they began to manipulate things. They decided to cast the world in an image that they could easily control. So each little kid on TV was either predictably (and sickeningly) nice and helpful, or predictably always getting into trouble. Women were either predictably aggressive or predictably obtuse. You see, they set up patterns of behavior that they could count on. Once they could predict and control how the public would react to something, they could do whatever they wanted. Whenever they wanted to do something really tricky (like when they took over the Mid-East oil fields in the late 70's and early 80's) they made sure to get the country thinking their way before hand with a massive TV bombardment. If it was a topic that they knew nobody would go for no matter how they publicized it, they flooded the airways with those sickening human emotion type TV-movies. Things like "Plight of the Forgotten Children" or "Why is Daddy always angry?". The kind of stuff that makes you want to blow lunch. Rod: Wow, thats amazing. Xaphod: Yah. Ralph: Their greatest triumph was getting a president elected. Their plan was simple. They made sure that the east coast was for their candidate, leaving the west coast alone. Then, on election day, the TV 'predictions' claimed their candidate to be a sure winner. Due to the time difference, all the people on the west coast thought the election was over anyway and didn't even bother to vote. Xaphod: Wow, imagine getting a president elected by manipulating the media. Ralph: And guess what . . . he was an actor! Gillian: What a coincidence. Rod: Yah, imagine that. Martin: Doesn't surprise me . . . I expect such things from humans. Arnold Lint: But what does all this have to do with the Net? Gillian: Yah, controlling TV is great but most people in the Net are far too dedicated to their work to partake of anything as tacky as TV. We're all thoroughly dedicated professionals. (If it were possible for an andriod to supress a burst of uncontrollable laughter, that is what Martin could now be described as doing.) Rod: Yah what about the Net!? Ralph: Well . . . ******************** End Of Part 11 ******************** What are the interests of this Neo-Nazi-Communist-Capitalist organization in the Net? The answer will surprise you - unless you're a great stupid twit. To find out more . . . Tune in next time . . . same Net-time . . . same Net-channel. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 24-May SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #102 *** EOOH *** Date: 24 May 84 1047-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #102 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 24 May 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 102 Today's Topics: Books - Libertarian SF, Films - The Last Starfighter & Roll-Your-Own Films & Film News, Television - V: The Final Battle (5 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed 23 May 84 00:45:08-EDT From: Peter G. Trei Subject: Libertarian SF Some one was recently asking about 'libertarian sf'. This is an interest of mine, so here are some in that vein. First: Libertarianism is a political philosophy based on the idea that it is wrong to interfere in the freedom of others, save to preserve ones own freedom. This is not the place to justify or explore this; if you think of libertarians as anarcho-capitalists you will get some of the flavor. For more details, contact me directly. Second: It is difficult to decide whether many books are 'libertarian-sf' or not. Books in favor of freedom and critical of big government are a dime a dozen in sf; but those which take freedom to its logical conclusion (ie, absence of government) are less frequent. I will try to list books which libertarians and others who love liberty might enjoy. WE by Yevgeny Zamatyin This book was written by a Russian dissident about 1920. It describes a far-future, totally regimented society, and one mans gradual revolt against the system. This is the earliest sf work I know of with a distinctly libertarian flavor. It was recently reprinted by Avon/Bard. Ayn Rand. Ayn Rand's books are EXTREMELY polemical. Through her works she tried to expound and disseminate her personal philosophy of Objectivism, with its emphasis on personal integrity and excellence. As literature, her works tend to be rather turgid, but if the philosophy rings a resonant chord in your soul, you'll be utterly hooked. Ayn Rand's works have probably turned more people on to libertarian thought than any others. They seem to effect the young most strongly; if you have no time for idealism you will proabably dislike her. If you are curious about the ideals to which libertarians aspire, I could do little better than suggest that you try reading THE FOUNTAINHEAD, one of her non-sf novels. Two of her other works have sf elements: ANTHEM One of her shortest books, and based very heavily on the above mentioned WE. It is rather more dramatic than its model, but Rand is probably not as good a writer as Zamyatin. ATLAS SHRUGGED This has very marginal sf elements, but they exist. As America slowly sinks under a tide of mediocrity and incompetence, Dagny Taggart singlehandly holds together the last remaining railway network. The main thrust of the book is finding out where all the other competent people have hidden themselves, and why. ATLAS SHRUGGED is Rand's magnum opus; it is extremely long, and moving the plot forward takes back seat to explaining what is wrong with the world and why people should accept her philosophy. Despite the sf trappings, the world of AS feels to be circa 1928. I dont reccomend AS as a first book on libertarianism or as light reading, but if you are already interested, you might try reading it after THE FOUNTAINHEAD. The following are recent sf novels with an obvious libertarian slant: ALONGSIDE NIGHT by J Neil Schulman In a future, hyper-inflationary America, the youthful protagonist gets mixed up in a (literally) underground libertarian black market cum revolutionary movement, which stages a revolt against the totalitarian government the US has fallen into the hands of. Its been a while since I've read this and the details are hazy, but I remember liking it much. THE PROBABILITY BROACH THE VENUS BELT THE NAGASAKI VECTOR all by L Neil Smith These take place in the same alternative universe, and though they share characters, they can be read out of sequence. They are probably a little more far out than the other books I mention, since a large part of the action takes place in totally libertarian communities. Smith has not worked out the facets of such a society to the point of convincing me , but they remain fun action-adventures. Smith has one other (non-political) book out. THEIR MAJESTIES BUCKETEERS appears to have been written to answer the burning question; "Is it possible to write a good victorian murder mystery where all the characters are tri-symmetric, trisexual tripods?" The answer is a resounding NO! This is one of the worst books I have read in years. AN ENEMY OF THE STATE by F Paul Wilson Just started this, it appears to be pretty decent, though heavy on the propaganda. All of the above modern sf novels are self-conscious propaganda; they push a certain point of veiw, and the authors knew they were doing so. In general, I have found that 'novels with a message' tend to be less successful as entertainment than those without such pretensions. This is not surprising: unless the author is a perfect master in the skill of imparting information on the fly, the plot screeches to a halt every few pages while THE MESSAGE gets beamed at you. SF has this problem already: in half the sf books I have read, around page 5 someone says "Tell me professor, how does our society work?" and then you have a page or two of straight explanation. Some authors are good at this, others less so. When the author has a MESSAGE apart from his or her sf story, you get the problem squared. I do enjoy polemical novels, but only if they are pandering to predjudices I already possess. Other peoples propaganda is usually boring. The few authors who can hold you captivated with their story while slipping a heavy message into your brain are possessed of a powerfull skill indeed. I cannot close without recommending a non-partisan (?), non-propagandistic anthology of stories on the subject of freedom; its consequences, problems, and abuses and advantages. The book is THE SURVIVAL OF FREEDOM, a multi-author anthology edited by Jerry Pournelle, published in paperback by Fawcett. Peter Trei oc.trei%cu20b@columbia-20.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Tue 22 May 84 00:37:45-EDT From: Peter G. Trei Subject: The Last Starfighter. The June issue of High Technology magazine contains an excellent article on computer graphics, including the following tidbits on Digital Productions' work for the movie THE LAST STARFIGHTER: The work is being done on a Cray X-MP, printed on 70 mm film at a resolution of 4000 x 6000, at a pace of about one minute per day. Unlike TRON, the images include transparency and reflections, as well as fractal landscapes. Some detail is also provided on the Genesis bomb sequence from ST-TWOK, and other developments in the field. Peter Trei oc.trei%cu20b@columbia-20 ps: The back cover of the paperback of the movie has a small image of a spacecraft from the film. pt ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 May 84 15:20:17 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: roll your own sf films How about a film version of Moorcock's Elric novels? A little depressing, perhaps, in the long run, but more thoughtful than most fantasy. If Max von Sydow were twenty years younger, he would be perfect for the lead, but since he isn't, how about David Bowie, who is very good at giving an impression of a tall, thin, pale outsider. Ridley Scott would be a good choice to direct, as he has a superb visual sense tending towards the moody and dark. If he's not available, his brother Tony is an acceptable second choice. His first film, "The Hunger", deals with those who somewhat reluctantly are forced to live off of others, a theme which has some parallels in Moorcock's books. Peter Reiher ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 84 16:15:48-PDT (Sun) From: ihnp4!inuxc!iuvax!isrnix!jon @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: film news "Enemy Mine", by Barry B. Longyear, did win the 1979 Nebula for best novella. I was also very impressed with that story. I don't know whether the movie is based on the story, but one can hope... Jon Bayh ihnp4!inuxc!isrnix!jon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 May 84 16:39:53 EDT From: Will Martin Subject: Why we complain; a statement of principles (Opening trumpet fanfare...) Regarding the comment by dartvax!johnc that "V" should be treated as entertainment and we shouldn't complain about the goofs, flaws, and defects, or pick at it: Since I was one of the earlier submitters of criticisms of "V", I shall take up this hurled gauntlet and fire it back... 1) It is also "entertaining" to mock and jeer at drivel. Talking back to the characters, catching the writers or producers in a flub, or otherwise picking at a show is about the same as yelling at the umpire. A grand American tradition which we have a duty to uphold. If you do it to the TV screen at home, or to a community of like-minded people on the net, this is totally harmless, as you bother no one else (unlike heckling at a movie showing). 2) {IMPORTANT POINT} It is just as easy to do something RIGHT as it is to do it WRONG. TV people just don't care! (Also some moviemakers.) This was explicitly discussed by several commentors. "V" could have been made with exactly the same cast, at exactly the same cost, employing exactly the same staff, and come out to be even more entertaining, if the science had been right, the motives valid, the characters believeable, and the plot logical. All it would have took for this to be the case is for the writer(s) to be more knowledgeable and better skilled, and the other personnel involved to have CARED if things were right! (Of course, this doesn't mean we have to explain FTL travel or get into elaborate technical detail. We can accept certain pseudoscientific elements as axioms to make SF possible, like interstellar travel, matter transmission, telepathy, or other SF standard features. But it doesn't cost anything to make better choices of plot elements that can have either rational explanations or good-sounding pseudo-reasoning behind them. For example, in "V", the aliens could have been grabbing some complex biological compound secreted in human pituitaries which could not be produced with recombinant DNA techniques, instead of water. Sure, we could probably poke holes in that idea (so what do you expect for off the top of my head, already?), but it isn't so OBVIOUSLY SILLY as interstellar water rustling! That would justify them grabbing and preserving humans as cargo, which could be an important plot element.) The problem is that having obvious stupidity presented as important-to- the-story justification spoils the entertainment value for people who have the training/intelligence/common sense to instantly recognize such nonsense as the crap it is. If you have to think about it, and then later realize that it just isn't right, that isn't so bad. A lot of fiction falls in that category. You can be entertained by it for the time being, because you are not doing deep analysis of the details. When you get something as blatantly incorrect as "the moon is made of green cheese" presented as something you have to accept in order to be entertained in continuing to watch or read the rest of the story, the writer has failed to do his job. If he presents something false as true which only one viewer in a thousand will catch, he's done a much better job. And if he presents something false as true, but you can only figure that out after taking a graduate course in astrophysics, he's done a pretty damn good job! "V" fell in category one. It is intuitively obvious to anyone with enough intelligence to balance a checkbook that a number of the basic premises upon which the structure of the story was based were nonsense. This required no training or advanced education on the part of the viewer. Yet this was not necessarily the case! It would not have taken much revision to move it to category two. If it had, it would have been a landmark in TV SF. It could have been just as much a soap opera in character development and behavior, and that wouldn't have mattered. (After all, all characters in drama, literature, or tv behave in an unreal manner -- if they didn't, there wouldn't be a story in most cases. We are used to this in everything from "I Love Lucy" to "Masterpiece Theatre".) There are serious objections to bad programming with an "SF" label, as it degrades the reputation of a field which we admire. But those are minor, as we don't really care too much what "they" think, anyway. Probably, we mainly hack at "V" out of disappointment. All that effort, money, and time could have been used to make something we would have liked a lot better. As soon as I rule the world, I'll see that it's done right... Will ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 May 84 17:02:45 EDT From: Will Martin Subject: Another "V" submission This item went to USENET's net.tv, so wouldn't make it to SF-Lovers, but I thought it was worth forwarding especially: From: moriarty@uw-june.UUCP Newsgroups: net.tv Subject: Those cute babies on V I plan to do a V review as soon as the last episode is over, but the kids last night made me want to drop a note. The first one was excellent... I was just thinking, we haven't seen one of the buggers stick their tongues out yet this time around. Really scared heck outta me! The second one, though, I expected to see a wind-up key in its back ("Hello! My name is Schecky! Hello! My Name is Schecky!....."). Actually, it would have been great if, after all this buildup and hype, her only kid was... KERMIT THE FROG!!! "Oh MY GOD!" "Hello, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to... The Muppet Show!" {Muppet show orchestra comes up from background...} They could even have let doctor Rowlf (or whatever his name is) perform the operation! Currently residing in UUCP: {ihnp4,decvax,tektronix}!uw-beaver!uw-june!moriarty ARPANET: moriarty@washington ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 84 14:42:12-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!zehntel!tektronix!tekig1!markh @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Invasion of the Space Nazis, the final battle Doesn't aynone else out there realize that there is Dark Sinister Purpose in this ostensible idiocy? What better way to lull our race to sleep than by telling us that the bad guys are so inanely Bad (and Stupid) that we (the sheep) come to reject the whole concept of Cosmic Bad Guys as ridiculous? It isn't that Hollywood is full of airheads, it's that we are on the verge of being in deep serious cosmic yogurt. They aren't Coming, they're Already Here. But don't listen to me...I'm only kidding anyway. really. ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 84 9:40:02-PDT (Mon) From: sri-unix!hplabs!zehntel!dual!decwrl!hughes@mother.DEC Subject: The return of beyond the valley of coming soon II (in 3D) Following hard on the heels of V:The Final Cliche is... W: Son of V gary ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 84 8:14:13-PDT (Mon) From: decvax!mcnc!akgua!psuvax!starner @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Book of "V" (Slight Spoiler) I think (am not absolutely sure) that I read an interview with A.C. Crispin (author of the book 'V') that stated that the book 'V' was written from the screenplay of the Mini-Series. (somebody correct me if I am wrong), not vice-versa. Mark Starner Computer Science Department (814) 863-0392 301b Whitmore Lab {allegra,ihnp4}!psuvax!starner The Pennsylvania State University starner@penn-state (csnet) University Park, PA 16802 starner@psuvax1 (bitnet) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 29-May SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #103 *** EOOH *** Date: 29 May 84 1240-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #103 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 29 May 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 103 Today's Topics: Books - Dewdney & Goldman (2 msgs) & Libertarian SF (2 msgs), Television - Roddenberry (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 12 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 24 May 84 19:26 EDT From: Barry Margolin Subject: Planiverse: x-y vs. x-z In V9 #99, Greg Skinner complained about the fact that up and down are used in "Planiverse". That is because he thinks about a 2-D world by laying it out on his table. In the book, all direction references are made relative to a Planiverse resident. "Up" and "down" mean the same thing to them as it does to us: towards the center of the planet. Thus, even if you placed the 2-D world on the wall, your "up" wouldn't necessarily correspond to the "up" of a resident of the 2-D world. One thing to notice in the book: most of the time, references to lateral directions on the Planiverse planet (whose name escapes me) are done with "east" and "west", not "right" and "left". barmar ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 84 08:16 PDT From: Harris Shiffman Subject: The Princess Bride & S. Morganstern An addendum to the discussion of a few weeks ago: Yesterday, I picked up a copy of The Princess Bride for a friend. It was an April, 1984 printing, so there shouldn't be any problem finding it. Biggest difficulty will be with guessing in which section your particular bookstore hides it. I've seen it in literature, humor and science fiction. Ah, well. At least no one had the nerve to stick it among the Barbara Cartland dreck. On the page preceding the title page of TPB, there is a list of other works by William Goldman. Directly below the list of his film scripts appears a box which mentions The Silent Gondoliers. So, even though TSG does not mention Goldman, TPB gives him credit for being Samuel Morganstern for this second book. Hank Shiffman Symbolics Inc. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 84 23:34:26-PST (Sat) From: ihnp4!we13!burl!ulysses!gamma!mb2c!uofm-cv!janc @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: William Goldman I once checked Who's Who's entry on Goldman. His wife is not named Helen, and he has no son (two daughters if I remember right). Personally, I enjoyed the Princess Bride much more once I learned the introduction was fictitous. I still haven't figured out why my copy is subtitled "A Hot Fairy Tale." It is only slightly "hotter" than Tolkien (i.e. there is a girl in it). -- Jan Wolter ------------------------------ Date: 24 May 1984 22:43-EDT From: James A. Cox Subject: The Probability Broach After seeing "The Probability Broach" by L. Neil Smith recommended as an example of libertarian SF, I ran right out to my favorite bookstore and bought a copy. Of course I've read a number of books with libertarian angles, including some by Heinlein, H. Beam Piper, Lee Correy, and even James P. Hogan but I don't think I've ever read anything which carried laudatory blurbs from "Libertarian Review" and "Reason" as this book does. Unfortunately, I was disappointed by the book, for two reasons. First, the book makes a good many errors about the history of the American Revolution, and to someone who knows anything about that event, those errors are every bit as glaring as the errors of science in "V." Second, the book is preachy about libertarianism. Of course I expected that, but what I didn't expect was that its preaching would be unconvincing! Maybe I'm spoiled having read persuasive libertarian arguments in Poli-Sci for the past few years.... The premise of the book is the existence of an alternative universe in which the United States has developed into a libertarian "North American Confederacy." The history of the two universes was the same up until 1794, when in the alternative universe George Washington was killed by Albert Gallatin during the Whisky Rebellion. Gallatin (who in "our" universe was an unspectacular Secretary of the Treasury in the Jefferson administration) led the attack against the Federalists and "their" Constitution, which was declared "null and void." The Articles of Confederation were reinstated and Gallatin was proclaimed President. Shortly thereafter he was confirmed by Congress, which proceeded to abolish all taxes and restore seized property to the Loyalists and Federalists. In 1797, the Articles of Confederation were revised, binding the United States and the states to respect the civil and political rights of all citizens. From that point on, the government proceeded to gradually wither away, leaving Americans to enjoy their blissful anarcho-capitalist paradise. The most obvious historical error is that Gallatin could not have been "proclaimed" President after the Articles of Confederation were reinstated, because THERE WAS NO SUCH OFFICE UNDER THE ARTICLES OF CONFEDERATION! It got worse from that point on. Smith's made-up history has all sorts of unlikely people being elected president through history, including Albert Jay Nock, H.L. Mencken, and Ayn Rand (imagine the oh-so-dignified Ms. Rand out "stumping," eating ethnic dishes and making speeches!). The libertarianism is, as I said, not very convincing. The basic plot has a few concerned individuals trying to stop a "Federalist" conspiracy to restore the Constitution and do other evil things to the free people of the Confederation. (It's not very difficult to spot the Federalists because they all wear insignia of an eye-in-a-pyramid [you know, like on the back of a one dollar bill]). In one scene, the main character has just captured an assasin, sent to kill him by the number one baddie. It turns out that Confederacy "custom" prohibits the guy from threatening the assasin in order to make him reveal the name of his boss. Come on! That sounds like they let Earl Warren write the criminal rules in both universes. In MY libertarian paradise, that man just forfeited ALL rights by attempting murder. Once force is used against me, I ought to have the right to respond with whatever degree of force I deem necessary in order to insure that those who violated my rights once cannot do so again. The characterizations are little better. "The Probability Broach" reads as though L. Neil Smith neglected to make up new characters of his own, and just appropriated ones from the "Lensman" series of another Smith: E.E. "Doc". Only the plot is of any rudimentary interest; I was interested in whether Smith let the Federalists win in the end--but the book's faults almost had me turning to the last chapter directly, skipping the rest. All in all, I do not recommend the book. - James Cox ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 84 13:59:40-PDT (Tue) From: decvax!mcnc!ncsu!ncrcae!usceast!ted @ Ucb-Vax Subject: re: libertarian sf Someone was asking for libertarian sf stories a while back, and I have yet to see one of my favorites mentioned: "And Then There Were None" by Eric Frank Russel I know this has been collected at least a couple times, once in a book by Russel called The Great Explosion (I think). At any rate, it was, like much of Russel's work very funny as well as making a point. On the subject of Libertarian sf, was anyone else disturbed by the destruction of Venus in L Neil Smith's The Venus Belt? I am generally (though not completely) sympathetic to the libertarian cause , but this seemed like going beyond the pale. PS : if I've not spelled Russel correctly, sorry Ted Nolan usceast!ted 6536 Brookside Circle Columbia, SC 29206 (feather the rast!) ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 1984 0029 PDT From: Eric P. Scott Subject: Genesis II 2 Sorry trivia-fans, the sequel was called Planet Earth (this was about a women-run society that kept men as pets by putting "dink extract" from a "mutant plant" in their food and conditioning them with "stims" that could inflict pain or pleasure. The drug had the side-effect of making the men sterile, hence their interest in our hero). Earth 2, on the other hand, was about a nation-sized space colony orbiting Earth, a Chinese nuclear device a bit too close, and the guy they sent out to defuse it before something bad happened... he risked (and lost) his life saving them. -=EPS=- ------------------------------ Date: 24 May 84 13:35:37-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!intelca!cem @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Orphaned Response - (nf) Actually I belive the second genesis pilot was Genesis II, the movie Earth II was about a Space Station in orbit, where Marriot Hartely nearly blows everyone to smithereens with a captured orbital nuke.. ------------------------------ Date: 24 May 84 09:47:40 EDT From: Saul Subject: The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 12 Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net Episode 12 - Life, The Net, and Everything Part 2 (Ralph, the 'Video Testament' is just about to explain Life, the Net, and Everything to the crew of the Infinity) Gillian: Tell us, what does all this neo-Nazi stuff have to do with the Net. Arnold Lint: I don't think I want to know. Martin: Me neither. Rod: Quiet. Xaphod: Go on . . . Ralph: Anyway, Kubla Konthemasus' followers were doing great. Anything they showed on TV was immediately accepted as truth. Disco became an overnight sensation, and then was phased out when the profit wasn't great enough. It was soon realized that there was a significant group of people in computer related fields who possessed considerable wealth. It was also realized that these people were not being taken in by the video blitz. Arnold Lint: Good for us! Martin: Not really, I'm afraid. Ralph: Very perceptive, robot. Konthemasus' research showed that hackers do not believe what they see or hear, unless it comes across a computer terminal. It was fast becoming apparent that computers would be vital to the power of the new regime, so it was vital that anyone who worked with computers could be controlled. Gillian:Yes, but what does that have to do with the Net? The Net is an exchange of ideas and ideals between computer professionals! (Martin starts coughing sarcasticly) Ralph: Kubla Konthemasus, in a brilliant stroke, figured out a way to not only carry out an experiment in behavioral psychology on the computing professionals, but also to put into action all his findings. He created the Net. You see, there are a few key links in the Net controlled by his men. At first they tried a variety of topics and tested reactions. Then they started trying to bend the opinion of Net-landers. First by trying to get everyone to like current trends in music, then by trying to create the impression that North Dakota does not exist. Anyone who rejected the ideas they tried to push, and was fool enough to say so, was put onto a list. This list will be used to purge the society of all those who would corrupt the purity of essence of Konthemasus' new order of conformity and religious fulfillment. Xaphod: Wow, that's unbelievable. Rod: Yah, I don't think I do believe it. Arnold Lint: Me neither . . . An actor in the white house? . . . No North Dakota? . . . Couldn't happen! Gillian: I don't know, maybe . . . Ralph: Well, that's about it. I've got to go, lots to do. Rod: What could a book have to do? Ralph: About an ounce of cocaine! (With that, Ralph vanishes into thin air. The crew of the Infinity is left standing, dumbfounded by what they have heard. They start to leave and come to the door. There is a moment of hesitation.) Gillian:If anyone of you open the door for me, I'll put the boot in. Arnold Lint: What's with her. Rod: she's an ERA. Arnold Lint: A what? Xaphod: ERA - An Extra Rights Activist. [******************************************************************* According to "The Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net", the Extra Rights Activists group was started by a group of women who were quite upset by their station in life. They didn't just want equality, they wanted superiority. They figured they could get all the privileges of equality with men, and yet retain all the conveniences regarded them as women. They wanted equal pay for less work, lower taxes for women, shorter work hours. After all, the fairer sex shouldn't have to work so hard, but they do deserve the same pay. They didn't want to join the army though. They felt that in some cases, where it was convenient, men could still have it all. The one thing you could do to make an ERA mad was to hold the door for her. They took it as a sign of harassment . . . no one knows why. Other acts of courtesy were also mistaken as antagonising the ERA movement. Helping an ERA with her coat was the same as telling her she smelled like the bathroom at the National Food Poisoners Convention. Helping an ERA with her chair in a restaurant was tantamount to clubbing her about the head with a moldy Albatros. In response to this threat to male dominated society, the all-male anti-ERA faction MCP (Male Counter-ERA Pact) circulated a pamphlet explaining what a man could do if the woman he was with gave any indications of trying to open the door before he could open it for her. It read as follows: ================================================================= ** How not to hold the door for an ERA ** If the woman you are with starts to race for the door so she can open it for herself, and this upsets you, here are a few things you can do to make sure it won't happen again. * Just as she gets up to speed, trip her from behind. * When she has a large enough lead, and has the door open, stop to tie your shoe. * If there is a convenient doorway (like a men's room) nearby, wait until she isn't looking and duck in as she opens the door. * If she is holding the door, take hold of it as you enter the doorway and close it behind. Locking it is a sure-fire clue to her that you are displeased. * If there is a long corridor before the offending door, and she starts to speed up, keep pace with her. When you both hit a dead run, body check her into the wall. A well timed 'Ooops' will make it all look innocent. This is dangerous if you are with a lady roller derby player. * If you really don't care about offending her, give her a quick feel just as she turns away from you to head for the door. Of course, she may never turn her back on you again. Remember, there is nothing wrong with being courteous. But if she won't take it gracefully, make it bloody inconvenient for her to keep doing so. ===================================================================== The ERA movement, surprisingly, took no action against the MCP. Rumor has it that they settled the debate in some non-violent manner. History notes that there followed a sudden increase in the sale of plastic drop clothes and corn oil followed by a sudden increase in births about 9 months later. ********************************************************************] ******************** End Of Part 12 ******************** Will Arnold Lint hold the door for Gillian? Or will he become a soprano? To find out ... Tune in next time ... same Net-time ... same Net-channel. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 29-May SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #104 *** EOOH *** Date: 29 May 84 1304-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #104 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 29 May 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 104 Today's Topics: Books - Martin & Morrow & Vinge & Techno-sci-fi & Cthulu (2 msgs), Television - V: The Final Battles (6 msgs), Miscellaneous - The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 13 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 May 84 20:48:58-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!clyde!akgua!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn @ From: Ucb-Vax Subject: GREEN EYES by Lucius Shepard Yes, another insufferable book review... I couldn't resist. I reviewed FEVRE DREAM by George R. R. Martin in SF-LOVERS not too long ago; GREEN EYES does for zombies what FEVRE DREAM does for vampires, that is to say, it establishes a pseudo-scientific basis for the creatures. Jocundra Verret is a therapist at a peculiar clinic: she supervises the short-lived 'recoveries' of patients who have been infected with a unique bioluminescent bacteria culture. The fact that the patients must be dead for at least a few hours before the culture is administered, and that the eyes of the patients give off a green glow, leads her to wonder whether these patients are zombies. Most of the patients only 'survive' for a few days, but Jocundra is assigned a patient who has received a mutant culture and is expected to last for months. From this patient, who discovers his true nature and rebels against his impending second death, Jocundra learns that the voodoo beliefs about zombies are not as superstitious as they sound... The book has a very nice feel, with many beautiful images and interesting characters (the story does a good job of conjuring up the Cajun country of Louisiana, a place I've never visited), and it also has a slam-bang climax. With its emphasis on the voodoo religion, it reminds me of some of Roger Zelazny's early novels, but is written with a style and atmosphere more reminiscent of Michael Bishop. I really liked it. Can't stop reading, Donn Seeley UCSD Chemistry Dept. 32 52' 30"N 117 14' 25"W (619)452-4016 ucbvax!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn sdcsvax!sdchema!donn@nosc.ARPA PS -- to readers in San Diego: Kim Stanley Robinson is giving a reading from his novel THE WILD SHORE and a lecture at UCSD (6/5, 4 PM TCHB 142). If you have Robinson's PhD dissertation (on the novels of Philip K. Dick) checked out from the University library, can I get a look at it before the talk? ------------------------------ Date: Mon 28 May 84 21:30:44-EDT From: Stephen Londergan Subject: James Morrow Is any one familiar with James Morrow's books, "The Wine of Violence" and/or "The Continent of Lies" ? Stephen@MIT-oz ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 84 3:42:00-PST (Sat) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uiuccsb!eich @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: True Names - (nf) >From Analog 5 (ancient anthology) I recall vividly a Vinge short story called "Bookworm, Run!" Anyone know if this is included in a currently available collection? Quite good. Brendan Eich ...uiucdcs!uiuccsb!eich ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 84 20:54:36-PDT (Tue) From: harpo!ulysses!burl!clyde!watmath!utzoo!utcsstat!cobb @ Ucb-Vax Subject: techno-sci-fi I am currently looking for some good technocratic science fiction, especially in the style of JAMES P. HOGAN (Inherit the stars, and especially The Two Faces of Tomorrow for AI types). My library contains all of HOGAN, ASIMOV, CLARKE, STANISLAW LEM, JOSE FARMER, Ringworld series and Neutron Star of NIVEN, and some of HEINLEIN with the exception of garbage like "Number of The Beast". It feels as if I ran out of good sci-fi. Since experimentation costs a lot, I decided to poll for recommendations. Please forward any recommendations to: decvax!utzoo!yetti!ozan OZan Yigit (wizard of something or another) Dept of Computer Science York University Canada ------------------------------ Date: 25 May 84 12:20:17 PDT (Friday) From: Jef Poskanzer Subject: Re: Looking for Cthulhu Mythos stories "FROM THE HEART OF DARKNESS" by David Drake has at least one C.M. story. And the other stories are even better! Joe-Bob says check it out. ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 84 19:40:40-PDT (Sat) From: decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Cthulhu Myths Maybe of interest to fellow-worshippers: the Science Fantasy Bookstore in Harvard Square (Cambridge, MA) carries a t-shirt with the lettering Smile! Cthulhu loves you. and with a drawing of a (smiling, I think) many-tentacled critter. Lisa Chabot UUCP: ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot ARPA: ...chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl.ARPA USFail: DEC, MR03-1/K20, 2 Iron Way, Marlborough, MA 01752 shadow: ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-avalon!chabot ------------------------------ Date: 24 May 84 19:45:01 EDT From: Don Provan@CMU-CS-A Subject: more V First of all, I don't think that these problem are all nearly as obvious as y'all think. I understand all of the complaint raised, but I only spotted one or two of them. I don't think mister Joe American would even understand what you're talking about. We all know there are huge chunks of ice out there because we've read books about ice mining and followed the voyager space shot closely. Most people don't know these things. But this is really beside the point. Frankly, I think they could have done all of these things right and it still would have been a shitty show. The problem with the poison dump at the end wasn't anything about the delivery system or the nature of the bacteria. The problem was that it was a clear case of Duo Ex Machina (excuse my spelling, but I can't find it in my spellerama): the writers obviously got to that point and then said "now let's make the rebels win." It's exactly like the end of War of the Worlds, by the way. Not even much originality. And it all showed that kind of lack of quality. Who cares if the science was wrong. It still would have been bad. ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 84 5:00:34-PDT (Tue) From: sri-unix!hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!akgua!clyde!burl!ulysses!harpo!d From: ecvax!decwrl!boyajian@akov68.DEC Subject: re: Nazi Space Lizards Quite frankly, I don't understand what all the carping about television sf (eg. V) is about. Why does everyone get so worked up about it? SF is treated no worse than any other genre on the boob tube. On the other hand, it *is* true that people tend to get a bad impression of sf from skiffy tv shows, whereas they don't necessarily get a bad impression of, say, detective fiction from watching MICKEY SPILLANE'S MIKE HAMMER. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard, MA) UUCP:{decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}! decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 84 14:44:22-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!ciaraldi @ Ucb-Vax Subject: V Synopsis From: Mike Ciaraldi I just got back from vacation. While away, I saw the first two parts of "V", but missed the very last one. Can someone give me a quick synopsis of it? At the end of the second episode, the rebels had just blown up the pumping station, and the twins had been born, one human (except for tongue), one lizardish. Thanks. Mike Ciaraldi ciaraldi@rochester seismo!rochester!ciaraldi ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 84 15:08:49-PDT (Tue) From: ihnp4!ihu1g!fish @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: V: The Series worse than Lost in Space? Probably about the same level as (get those space sickness bags ready, folks) SPACE:1999 (glawwwwp! retch! ) Bob Fishell ihnp4!ihu1g!fish ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 84 13:14:02-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!brl-tgr!brl-vgr!ron @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Space nazis and people who compplain Yes, in the foreward to A Hole in Space he says that anyone who has a first edition of Ringworld should hold on to it. It's the only one where the Earth revolves in the wrong direction. -Ron ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 27 May 1984, 17:02-EDT From: Arthur L. Chin Subject: Invasion of Bad Hsiffy... [V-jering] Now that the Visitors have left our smug little planet, how can we prepare for their return this Fall? Would an attempt to get this digest's main comments and criticisms of V to the NBC writers be worth it? Is there anyone out there who has any contact with them? Or is it too late? (For some people, I guess it was too late after the first episode last spring...) Speaking of bad science fiction, ------------------------------ Date: 24 May 84 09:48:26 EDT From: Saul Subject: The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net - Episode 13 Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net Episode 13 (When last we left Xaphod and company, Gillian was preparing to put the boot into the first one who held the door for her - this being an act of harrassment to the Extra Rights Activists movement.) Martin: Look, I'll solve the problem. (With that, Martin blasts the door away with his built in Ultra-Zap gun.) Gillian: You shouldn't have done that Martin, blasting the door away is the same as holding it. You are threatening my rights. Rod: Forget it. Xaphod: Yah, besides, putting the boot into old Martin wouldn't accomplish anything. Martin: Well, at least there will be no Martin Jr.'s who have to endure this miserable life. Others: Ugh. Arnold Lint: Well, what do we do now? Gillian: I guess we'll head back to the Infinity. Xaphod: Yah, I guess so, this place is getting dull. Martin: GETTING dull!? Rod: Shut up! (Xaphod and the others make their way back to the Infinity. They are just about to take off when two strange people appear on the Infinity's bridge. One of them is dressed in a business suit and is carrying a brief case with a "Jesus Saves, But Only If You Make A Deposit!" sticker on it. The other is dressed up as a Nazi SS Captain.) Rod: Who are you two. Business Man: We represent the Church of the Holy Profit and Divine Purity. We believe in the Word of Adolf. Xaphod: Do you cats have names. Nazi: Names!? I'll ask the questions here. Rod: Could you tell us about this 'Word of Adolf'. Business Man: Our faith is based on the works of Hitler. When he rose again in Argentina, it was the sign of our upcoming dominance. Gillian: But, how can you worship such a man? Nazi: Quiet, the Fuhrer was a great leader. Business Man: Actually, we realized that his goals were not that much different than those of our previous affiliation - the Pay The Lord Club. He believes that our religion is best, he believes that all others will rot in Hell. But what makes him really different is that he did what all other God-fearing evangelists only dream of doing - KILLING THE NON-BELIEVERS!!! Arnold Lint: They're crazy! [******************************************************************* "The Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net" points out that there was in fact a plot conceived in the late 1970's by Jerry Foulmouth and Oral Rectal to set up mass extermination camps under the guise of 'Religious Interface Centers'. Fortunately, The plan was never carried out as it would have interfered with the football season. Project 'Clean Slate', as it was known, was rescheduled for 1984. It was felt that the coincidence with the book of the same title would lull the masses into thinking that all the strange happenings were just the result of a few people just took a book a bit too seriously. ********************************************************************] Xaphod: They may be crazy, but they're right. Have you ever heard those guys on TV on Sunday morning. I don't half expect them to put all the blacks and Jews up against the wall and shoot 'em. Nazi: Ah what a wonderful thought. Business Man: We would like you to join our congregation. Our scanners indicate that you could be useful additions to our 'Flock of Power'. We need people to go out into the Net and spread our beliefs. It is best when they know the bible and can cloud our intents with a lot of biblical quotes. You'll have to brush up a bit on that stuff. Remember, you'd be better off joining us now, than serving us later. First, we will have a short prayer to our beloved Adolf . . . everybody now . . . Gillian: What will we do? Nazi: It's simple - pray . . . or DIE. Business Man: In light of that, we would accept a LARGE donation from you. How much do you feel your lives are worth. (With that, the Nazi pulls out a WWII vintage MP40 sub-machine gun. Martin, shakes off his usual bustling disinterest and zaps the Nazi in the groin with 1000 volts. The Business man takes off and is also quickly laid to rest by Martin's electro-gun.) Xaphod: Nice shooting Martin! Rod: Yah, really 'trific. Martin: I have a cousin who's Jewish - and a sister who's black. Arnold Lint: Yah . . . right. Gillian: Hard to believe a religion based on taking in money and bigotry. Must be a billion to one shot. Xaphod: Well, where shall we go now? Rod: How 'bout Micro-Ways!? Gillian: Yah! Arnold Lint: What's Micro-Ways? Martin: It's the restaurant at the end of the Net - you won't like it. ******************** End Of Part 13 ******************** What will be found at Micro-Ways? Will they have BigMacs and Whoppers? How about Egg McMuffins? To find out the menu . . . tune in to the upcoming RatEotN (Restaurant at the End of the Net). Seen on many of these Net stations. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 30-May SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #105 *** EOOH *** Date: 30 May 84 1042-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #105 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 30 May 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 105 Today's Topics: Films - 70MM Film Bonanza (2 msgs) & The Last Starfighter (2 msgs) & 2001/2010 (2 msgs) & Future Spielberg Projects & Star Raiders ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 28 Apr 84 11:15:26-PST (Sat) From: harpo!ulysses!mhuxl!abnjh!cbspt005 @ Ucb-Vax Subject: 70MM Film Bonanza 70MM Exhibition Craze The number of theaters with 70MM Six Track Dolby Stereo presentation capability is rapidly expanding, with Dolby Labs estimating that some 600 screens will be in operation in the U.S. by the end of 1984. At this point in time, some 470 U.S. theaters have Dolby's CP200 six track stereo sound processor for 70MM and 51 additional packages have been sold in the past four months, a combination of new screens and upgrading existing facilities. Since Dolby Labs will only build 12 units a month through December, this translates to some 600 units by Christmas. The prospective 600 screen total does not include specialized 70MM theaters, including IMAX and OMNIMAX theaters, Douglas Trumbull's Showscan sites and Walt Disney's shows at EPCOT, Disney World, and Disneyland. 18 70MM Releases Scheduled Paramount is aiming at having the widest release yet in the wide gauge for its May 23 opening of Lucasfilm's "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom", targeted for some 200 prints in 70MM! The final total will be between 175 and 210 screens. This should break the record of 169 70MM prints held by MGM/UA's "Brainstorm" in September, 1983. "Jones" will have an additional 1200 35MM houses playing from day one. A week later (June 1), Paramount will debut "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock" on a massive 1700 theater break, including 100 70MM sites. Last summer, "Return of the Jedi" set boxoffice records when it opened wide at 1002 theaters including 164 70MM houses. Other upcoming 70MM fare from the major distributors will probably have less populous wide-gauge print runs, following Warner Brothers' current use of 15 70MM prints for "Greystoke". The final decision of whether to blow up a particular picture to 70MM for release is still tentative, but the distributors summer plans for 70MM are as follows: Columbia's "Ghostbusters" and "Sheena, Queen of the Jungle" Universal's "Streets of Fire" and "The Last Starfighter" Warner Brothers "Gremlins", "Once Upon A Time in America" (Ladd Co.) and "Tightrope" There is no word yet on other likely candidates for 70MM, such as Warner Brothers' "Supergirl" and 20th-Fox/Sherwood's "Buckaroo Banzai", latter title currently being mixed in six-track stereo, just in case. Unlike "Brainstorm", which featured Super Panavision (65MM) principal photography for many scenes, the upcoming films are generally being shot in 35MM formats, later to be blown up to 70MM release prints. Several, such as "Indiana Jones" and "Ghostbusters", feature special visual effects material filmed in wide screen processes such as VistaVision or Super Panavision, but not for the live action. This is different from Showscan and IMAX, which actually film in the larger formats. Fall releases in 70MM are planned for Orion's "Amadeus" and Columbia's remake of "The Razor's Edge". The big news come Christmas is the impressive lineup of pictures earmarked for 70MM release: Columbia's "A Passage to India" by David Lean, whose 1960's productions were also 70MM releases. Disney-Buena Vista's "Baby" MGM/UA's "2010: Odyssey II" Universal's "Dune" and "The River" Warner Brothers "City Heat" No decision has yet been made on Orion's "The Cotton Club" and other Yuletide fare, which could add to the list. For 1985, so far Disney-Buena Vista's "OZ" and "The Black Cauldron" (latter animated picture being filmed in VistaVision to facilitate wide gauge release prints) will be in 70MM, with the intention of servicing every exhibitor request for a 70MM print with same. Tri-Star Pictures' $50M production of "Santa Claus" will also be released in 70MM. -Eric Carter AT&T-IS Morristown, NJ allegra!abnjh!cbspt005 ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 84 8:16:10-PDT (Sun) From: ihnp4!we13!burl!clyde!watmath!watcgl!dmmartindale @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: 70MM Film Bonanza What is the reason for releasing a 70mm print of a film that was originally shot on 35mm stock? The resolution is going to be determined by the original 35mm film. (I would expect that the film stock used for the release prints would have grain at least as fine as the original negative, since it can be made as slow as the film manufacturer likes). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 84 18:13 PDT From: "Craig W. Reynolds" Subject: Starfighter FX vs TRON FX To: "Peter G. Trei" Date: Tue 22 May 84 00:37:45-EDT From: Peter G. Trei Subject: The Last Starfighter. ... Digital Productions' work for the movie THE LAST STARFIGHTER: The work is being done on a Cray X-MP, printed on 70 mm film at a resolution of 4000 x 6000, at a pace of about one minute per day. Unlike TRON, the images include transparency and reflections, as well as fractal landscapes. ... That last sentence is correct, except for the fact that the imagery in TRON included transparency, reflections and fractal landscapes. The production rate mentioned above is about 5 times faster than the rate at which frames were produced for TRON (at triple-I on a Foonly F1). Also, I am 98% certain that their computer output is on 35mm vistavision (an 8 perf horizontal format) since DP purchased, and I assume they are using, the same film recorder (the "DFP") that we used at triple-I during TRON. This would eventually be printed up to 70mm for release. The max resolution we used back then was 3000 pixels across, more typically it was 1500. The "correct" number, based on spot size and film bandwidth is between 1000 and 2000. Pixel densities above this tend to be for the purpose of "solving" the aliasing problem by brute force -- super-sampling reduces the intensity of the aliasing artifacts. [This is much like solving the problem of spoiled meat by grinding it into little tiny pieces before eating it.] -c ------------------------------ Date: 25 May 84 11:20:01 PDT (Friday) From: isdale.ES@XEROX.ARPA Subject: The Last Starfighter > The work is being done on a Cray X-MP, printed on 70 mm >film at a resolution of 4000 x 6000, at a pace of about one minute >per day. Unlike TRON, the images include transparency and >reflections, as well as fractal landscapes. The filming of the computer generated sequences was NOT done on 70mm. This is one of those films where it is shot in 35mm and printed on 70mm. There were actually three "camera" systems used. The primary camera is called a Digital Film Printer. It is the device III used to film parts of Tron. It is connected to the IO subsystem of the Cray XMP. Associated with it are two digital film scanners for film input to the CRAY (will do some fantastic mattes when and if the scanners/code work). The Secondary camera was a standard Acme animation camera on top of a Martix RGB 1280x1024 camera system. In normal companies the Matrix is used to take 8x10's of mundane business graphics. The DPions put the movie camera on top and hooked it up to a Ramtek 94xx framebuffer. Most of the work out of DP was done on this device (Fiero commercial, Sony Superwalkman, Devo's Peek-a-boo and She's out of Sync and a spot for TSR games to name a few). The third "camera" was a tape drive. It recorded the data out of the framebuffer. Starfighter made one heck of a tape library!! The pace of 1 minute of film per day is an average including the low res./detail game scenes. Some of the multi-ship scenes took over an hour to generate a single frame (1hr x 24fps = 1 sec/day!!). The realism of these scenes must be seen to be appreciated. The transparency/reflection models are entirely new and quite good but need the Cray. Previews to select crowds have drawn rave reviews. It opens June 15. From one who was there.... JB Isdale ------------------------------ Date: 24 May 84 12:14:08-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!randvax!kovacs!jim @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: 2001 and 2010 - (f) > From: ks@astrovax.UUCP > Subject: Re: Arthur C. Clarke's 2010 > Evidently MGM assigned him (Peter Hyams) to the project. Directors are not *assigned* to projects. Those days are long gone. > From: cbspt005@abnjh.UUCP (Eric Carter) > Subject: 2010 - Peter Hyams > One thing for sure, the special effects are being done by the > best in the business, Doug Trumbull's Entertainment Effects > Group, under the tutelage of triple Oscar-winner Richard Edlund > ("Alien", "The Empire Strikes Back", "Return of the Jedi"). Wrong. Edlund is Effects Supervisor, but EEG is not doing the effects. Where do you people get your information ? And don't tell me "Starlog", or some other effects rag. The people who write for those trash rags know less about what's what than my dog. > From: knudsen@ihnss.UUCP > Subject: Re: Saturn not pretty enuf for Kubrik > The irony of 2001, a generally beautiful film, is that its > depictions of Juapiter and its moons pale to dullness next to the > real thing, as beamed back by the Voyagers and other probes. > Swirls and eddies on Jupiter, furrows on ?, ice craks all over > Europa, Io's hell -- yessir, truth can really beat hell out of > fiction. If anyone had dreamed up something like that for > Kubrik, he might have refused it, saying "that's too fantastic... > there's enuf LDS trip stuff at the end. People would laugh at > those planets." Well, I just read 2010, and the special effects > to do it anything like justice had BETTER BE GOOD! Hope they rip > off all they need from NASA. No more plaster Jupiters...mike k I showed this one to Con Pederson. When he stopped laughing, he said it wasn't worth his time to reply to it. My response is: 2001 was begun five years before man landed on the moon. For its time (and for a long time after), it was/is the best film (complete film -- story, cinematography, effects) of the genre. To compare one effect from the film to a reality of fifteen years later, on the surface, seems ludicrous, but actually is probably testament to the accomplishment of its makers. > From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA > Subject: 2010: Odyssey Two > Special Effects are being handled by the Doug Trumbull group... C'mon. I'd really like to know who started this rumor. The company doing the effects is Boss Film Corp, which now occupies the same building that EEG used to occupy. And *some* of the people from EEG are probably working on the film (there is a *limit* to the number of *talented* effects persons in the business). And unless something's changed very recently, Doug Trumbull himself should be off working on SHOWSCAN somewhere. -Jim- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 May 84 03:43 MST From: Deryk Barker Subject: Re: 2001/10 As I recall, in Agel's book, Trumbull says that in order to produce a convincing Saturn he would have to produce a convincing Jupiter anyway - because Saturn is essentially Jupiter with rings and also the Discovery would presumably fly past Jupiter en route to Saturn. As far as 2010 is concerned - well I didn't rate the book as highly, but then I guess I have no visual record to rely on. I don't expect the film to be as good tho', basically, I guess, because, although Hyams is a competent - maybe even good - director (I, it seems unfashionably, did enjoy Capricorn 1 - although I thought it was more a post-Watergate paranoia movie than SF), Kubrik is/was a Great Director and 2001 was a Great Film - in my opinion one of the top dozen ever. It's probably too much to expect the sequel to match up (any more than one could reasonably expect Psycho 2 to). Sure there has always been a dearth of good SF films, but then there has always been -relatively speaking - a dearth of any kind of SF film. I doubt, really, whether any SF movie, 2001 apart, qualifies as a Great Film, and it'll probably be a while before there's another (OK maybe Solaris - personally I fell asleep). Whatever one may think about the Lucases and Spielbergs of this world they are not in the same league as Kubrick,and we should just be grateful for good workmanlike enjoyable SF films to keep rolling out (Close Encounters excepted). Let's all bear in mind Sturgeon's Law "90% of everything is crap". so long, and thanks for all the fish, deryk. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 84 10:49:25 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: Spielberg's future sf/fantasy projects A recent article in the LA Times dealing extensively with Steven Speilberg mentioned some of his projects which have a science fiction/fantasy bent. Here they are, and they don't sound exciting: A remake of "Peter Pan", which will *not* star Michael Jackson. A remake of "A Guy Named Joe", a 1940s fantasy about a dead flyer who returns to earth to help a living one. "Protector", a story about a children's camp in outer space. There were also a few non-sf films under consideration. There is no certainty that these project will go anywhere, or, if they do, that Spielberg will direct rather than produce. No further word on whether Spielberg is still interested in "Schindler's List", a true story about an Eastern European industrialist who, for no reason other than simple humanity, saved the lives of several hundred Jews from the Nazis at great risk to his own life. This was almost assumed to be Spielberg's next project, for quite some time. Peter Reiher ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 27 May 1984, 17:29-EDT From: Arthur L. Chin Subject: Invasion of Bad Hsiffy... (V-jeering) I was priviliged to see a real ripe movie called SPACE RAIDERS. About the same level of sophistication as last summer's SPACEHUNTERS: Adventures in the Forbidden Zone, but without the 3-D. It had the poorest production values I had seen in a long time. What awesome special effects from Battlestar Galactica *out-takes*! (Yeah-- that bad!) Boy, that spaceship sure looked good -- something like escargot! And then everyone died from being shot by blasers which could be heard but not seen. Except for the cute ten-year-old boy who did nothing but stare into the camera, being just about as bored as I was. A must-not-see. I am no English scholar but I would like to make one request if you please could those contributors to SF-LOVERS who infrequently insert punctuation marks in their letters use them with more frequency as I find it a bit easier to read that way I don't have to read it over and over to find out where sentences or if you will phrases start and stop well live long and prosper. --- toscanini(.,:;*!) And so it goes. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 30-May SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #106 *** EOOH *** Date: 30 May 84 1057-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #106 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 30 May 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 106 Today's Topics: Books - Rosenberg & "Parallel Worlds" Stories & Libertarian SF & Non-Human Aliens (10 msgs), Miscellaneous - The Restaurant at the End of the Net - Episode 1 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 May 1984 17:14-EST From: Dragon Subject: Guardians of the Flame Does anyone out there know when the third book (there had BETTER be a third book...) of Guardians of the Flame by Joel Rosenberg is coming out? (The first two books are "The Sleeping Dragon" and "The Sword and the Chain".) Thanks in advance. -D ------------------------------ Date: Tue 29 May 84 23:06:05-EDT From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA Subject: "Parallel Worlds" stories Now I've unpacked my library, let me suggest two other "parallel worlds" stories: The House of many Worlds - Sam Merwyn Jr Quicksand - John Brunner (or is it?) The both came across as good reading. Robert Firth ------------------------------ Date: 29 May 84 16:05:46 EDT From: JoSH Subject: Libertarian SF Someone may have mentioned it, but I didn't notice it if so: One of the best libertarian SF novels out there is Heinlein's The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. It offers a good view of the benefits of both the anarcho-capitalist and the minarchist ideas, almost without the reader realizing it is doing so. It also offers a sapient computer which has just become conscious as the story opens and "grows up" marvelously throughout the story; the only mention of Loglan I've seen in SF; and odd syntax. [The syntax, which is obviously intentional, sounds choppy for the first few pages but then you fall into the swing of it and don't notice it until the next time you start the book. The first time I read it, I thought he was writing in Basic English, but that isn't the case: someone who knows the language informs me that it is written with Russian syntax. This makes sense as (a) in the story, Russian is the second major Lunar language, and many Russian words are used in the text; (b) Heinlein's wife was learning Russian at the time the book was being written.] --JoSH {"Think in Russian"} ps: For more libertarian fiction, read the Federalist by Hamilton, Madison, and Jay. ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 84 14:26:01-PDT (Tue) From: ihnp4!ihuxn!res @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Non-human aliens An author who has done a good job in presenting aliens from the aliens' point of view is C. J. Cherryh. Her "Faded Sun" trilogy is quite good in this regard. "Pride of Chanur" is another such novel that comes to mind. I highly recommend her novels for good character development as well as interesting plots. Rich Strebendt ihuxn!res ------------------------------ Date: 23 May 84 8:44:05-PDT (Wed) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!cas @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Spock (retraction) Try reading "The Pride of Chanur" by C. J. Cherryh if you want interesting, non-human aliens. The main characters (the cat-like creatures) are pretty standard aliens, but all the others are quite interesting, certainly unusual. Even the bad guys are weird. Cliff Shaffer ...!rlgvax!cvl!cas ------------------------------ Date: 24 May 84 7:15:49-PDT (Thu) From: ihnp4!mit-eddie!gds @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Non-human aliens Actually, an episode of Star Trek featured an intelligent alien which was totally unlike humans. I forget the name of the episode, but the creature was a Horta. "Alien" was also a good example of a non-human alien who displayed a certain amount of intelligence. Intelligent enough to make a ship of human beings panic ... [This space available for rent.] Greg Skinner (White Gold Wielder) {decvax!genrad, eagle!mit-vax, whuxle, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gds And he who wields white wild magic gold is a paradox ... ------------------------------ Date: 23 May 84 17:16:25-PDT (Wed) From: sun!qubix!jdb @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Non-human aliens Eric Frank Russell had a number of well-developed non-humans in his work. The chess-enthusiast martians of the Jay Score stories were characters I enjoyed. The martian poet who became the beloved elder of a devasted Earth village in Dear Devil. It might also be fair to include the dogs from Into Your Tent I'll Creep and the camels from Homo Saps. "I wish to hell I could get him writing again" -- John Campbell re EFR Dr Memory ...{decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!decwrl!qubix!jdb ------------------------------ Date: 24 May 84 7:14:00-PDT (Thu) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!friedman @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Non-human aliens > An author who has done a good job in presenting aliens from the > aliens' point of view is C. J. Cherryh. Her "Faded Sun" trilogy > is quite good in this regard. "Pride of Chanur" is another such > novel that comes to mind. I highly recommend her novels for good > character development as well as interesting plots. I heartily agree, and would add her "Hunter of Worlds" to this list. Perhaps the most serious flaw in her aliens is that they are almost always humanoid (or, occasionally, modeled after some other Earth animal--moles for one of the species in "Hunter", lions in "Pride"). Personally, I am inclined to overlook that flaw and just enjoy. Few other authors even attempt to treat things from a non-human point of view. It has been said (I don't have the reference handy) that the best aliens ever were Asimov's in the second part of "The Gods Themselves". I tend to think that's true. ------------------------------ Date: 25 May 84 7:13:50-PDT (Fri) From: ihnp4!ihuxs!okie @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Non-human aliens - (nf) For fascinating non-human aliens, you should read Larry Niven. He has a number of good ones, the most conspicuous being the 'Moties' from 'The Mote in God's Eye.' Constantly throughout the book, we are given the human point of view, and the characters treat them as human--but we find out differently in the last one-fourth of the book. Another good Niven alien is the puppeteer--a being to whom cowardice is honorable, a three-legged creature with two heads on stalks above the main body...well, in Niven's words, imagine "a three-legged Centaur without the human head, but with two Cecil the Sea-Sick Sea Serpent puppets on stalks instead." They pop up in many short stories, and figure prominently in the two 'Ringworld' novels. There are also the kzinti, a carniverous, war-like race of giant orange cat-like beings...the Grogs, a telepathic race that can't leave it's one planet, or even move around on it...the Slavers, the ancient race that once ruled the Galaxy (also by telepathy) but was too stupid to keep it... the bandersnatchi, large white intelligent slugs that make treaties with humans for mutual hunts... I almost include Phsstpok the Pak and the Pak race with these, but not quite. While humans are the mutated breeder stage of the Pak, humans and Pak are quite different in culture, drives, activities, thought, etc. The Pak race is the ultimate race of warriors, born and bred for fighting and protecting their families--fast, resourceful, incredibly tough, and frighteningly intelligent. I hope I've whetted your appetite for these interesting and bizarre characters. I may have missed a few, but these are (in my humble opinion) the best ones. A short list of 'where to find them' (albeit incomplete) follows: Moties The Mote in God's Eye (novel) Puppeteers Ringworld (novel) The Ringworld Engineers (novel) Tales of Known Space (collection) Neutron Star (collection) Kzinti Ringworld/Ringworld Engineers Tales of Known Space Neutron Star Slavers World of Ptaavs (novel) Bandersnatchi World of Ptaavs Pak Protector (novel) Ringworld Engineers B.K. Cobb ihnp4!ihuxs!okie ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 84 11:53:00-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!hp-pcd!orstcs!hakanson @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Non-human aliens And let's not forget David Brin's Sundiver -- the alien called (I think) Fagan was something a tree-like, broccoli-like creature. And he was a good guy, too. A great book, BTW. Marion Hakanson CSnet: hakanson@oregon-state UUCP : {hp-pcd,tektronix}!orstcs!hakanson ------------------------------ Date: 25 May 84 5:32:55-PDT (Fri) From: decvax!dartvax!kenv @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Non-human aliens What about all of the non-human aliens in 'Doc" Smith's Lensman series? They certainly looked nothing like us, but in many cases were far superior to us. Smith even had an elaborate way of describing an alien, from AAAAAAAAA, or completely human to ZZZZZZZZZ, or not at all like a human. Ken Varnum {dartvax, cornell, astrovax}!decvax!kenv ------------------------------ Date: 25 May 84 15:53:53-PDT (Fri) From: ihnp4!ihnss!knudsen @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Best non-human aliens I'd certainly agree that my favorite aliens are the threesome in Asimov's "The Gods Themselves." However, I refrained from posting them as non-human because, apart from having three sexes in their race, their personalities are quite human. In fact, the whole race is a parody (intentional or not, I don't know) on the Parent, Child, and Adult of Transactional Analysis, a more-or-less serious psychological movement started about 15 years ago. One of the beings is extremely emotional (Child), another very practical and strict about the rules (Parent), and the third logical but curious (Adult). Come to think of it, they'd make a great movie.... mike k ------------------------------ Date: 24 May 84 9:29:07-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!clyde!watmath!utzoo!dciem!ntt @ From: Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Non-human aliens A very non-human alien was the title character of "The Black Cloud", by Fred Hoyle. (I don't think much of Hoyle's SF generally, but I did like that one. He wrote that one with a collaborator.) Actually, I think aliens that are human-like in some behavior patterns but not in others are probably more interesting. And the first one of those that comes to mind is Larry Niven's "puppeteers". ["But so what if the two of us had remained in stasis for 50,000 years? Don't you see, we would not have had to leave the safety of the ship!" -- paraphrase from one of the two Ringworld books] Mark Brader ------------------------------ Date: 30 May 84 10:22:25 EDT From: Saul Subject: The Restaurant at the End of the Net - Episode 1 The Restaurant at the End of the Net Episode 1 (Xaphod, Rod, Gillian, Martin, and Arnold Lint are on their way to MicroWays: The Restaurant at the End of the Net.) Arnold Lint: What's this MircoWays place like? Martin: It's awful. Xaphod: Shut up, it's a wild place. What they did was place a restaurant at the exact time in the continuum at which the Net ends. It's all very complicated, but you can dine while watching all the nodes and newsgroups you've come to know and despise vaporize in a great apocalyptic blaze. [****************************************************************** "The Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net" points out that the Net did actually cease due to overpopulation. The volume of stupid and useless comments (and their associated authors) got so compressed that all activity stopped due to the immense amounts of time required to sort through this black hole of mental ineptitude. A few die hards kept on, however, in the hopes that the loyal followers would again return. Legend has it that they followed the writings of some mystical female netlander from the Valley (fershure!). This has been widely disclaimed as gnarly to the max and highly unlikely. ******************************************************************] Rod: Yah, it's lovely! Gillian: Sounds fun. Arnold Lint: You mean the Net isn't forever? Marvin: Fortunately not. Arnold Lint: Gee, it seems kind of pointless to go to so much trouble on the Net, knowing that it all is going up in the end anyway. Marvin: Same with everything else in this seemingly endless lament we call life . . . why bother. Xaphod: Quiet. (A buzzer sounds and the Infinity's sensors show a squadron of ships approaching. It's the Flamers!!) Rod: Oh heck, it's the bloody Flamers again. Don't those mindless oafs ever learn!? Xaphod: Guess not. Flamer Commander: Right, I thought we were rid of you lot. Push off or else. (The Flamer commander looks a lot like Phil Donahue.) Gillian: Ah, go intercourse a leprous elk! Arnold Lint: Don't Flamers ever stop? I though they were under control a while ago. Rod: They were, but they've started another uprising. Flamer Commander: Right, assigned topics for discussion WILL be adhered to. Anything said which sounds like it might be important WILL be ignored. Full frontal lobotomies WILL be required. Martin: I don't think he's too well. Xaphod: That's an understatement. Rod: We better get out of here before they start up. Flamer Commander: First, lets discuss the social and political effects of shirtsleeves. Should they be rolled up? Left down? Or made a felony? Suppose if every American rolled up his shirt sleeves and every Commie didn't - where would we be then? If you are interested in having an incestuous relationship with your illegitimately pregnant sister, what impact will the length of your shirtsleeves have on her opinion of you? Is the shirtsleeve a phalic symbol? How many engineers does it take to sew a shirtsleeve? Xaphod: STOP! STOP! STOP! What do you want from us? Arnold Lint: Wait, I was just getting interested. Rod: We better get ourselves out of here quick. Flamer Commander: Next, what about people who type in all lower case - does this make them homosexuals or ocelots? Gillian: Aaaarrrrgggghhh!!!! ******************** End Of Part 1 ******************** Will the crew of the Infinity once again escape the clutches of the Flamers? Or will they start to question the sexual significance of candlepin bowling? To find out . . . Tune in next time . . . same Net-time . . . same Net-channel. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 2-Jun SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #107 *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Jun 84 1520-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #107 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 2 Jun 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 107 Today's Topics: Books - Douglas Adams & Gilliland & Varley & Libertarian SF & Aliens in SF, Films - Summer SF and Fantasy Films & High Speed Film & 2001/2010 & Temple of Doom (6 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 31 May 84 9:24:41-PDT (Thu) From: ihnp4!tellab1!rcl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Hitchhiker's guide, et al. Has anyone heard anything about a fourth book in the Hitchhiker's series? I heard rumors about a year ago, but so far nothing has happened. According to the rumor, the book would be out sometime in '84, and would be titled "Good Bye, and Thanks For the Fish!" Also... Anyone else heard rumors about a Hitchiker's movie? Ron Lewen ....ihnp4!tellab1!rcl ------------------------------ Date: 30 May 84 19:16:55 EDT (Wednesday) Subject: Techno-sf From: Chris Heiny To: decvax!utzoo!yetti!ozan@UCB-VAX.ARPA The Rosinante Books by Alexis Gilliland (is that spelled right?) are pretty good. There are 3 of the them and the titles are something like 'LongShot for Rosinante', 'Pirates of Rosinante', and 'Revolution from Rosinante'. I don't recall the order. They were published by Ballantine/DelRey. Bertram Fegg Lives! Chris ------------------------------ Date: 30 May 84 10:57:17 EDT From: Liz Subject: Demon - John Varley I picked this one up at Disclave...due to its price - it was the only new book I bought at Disclave. Still I think it was worth it. It is a large trade paperback and is $6.95. Demon is better than Titan, but I am not sure if it is better than Wizard. It is written so that it is possible to read it independently of the other two, but you will enjoy it MUCH more if you have read Titan and Wizard previously. Demon picks up about twenty years after Wizard. Gaea is crazier than ever and Rocky has definitly been fired as the wizard. Her personality has been expanded in this book, succesfully in my opinion. Gaea is no longer the cardboard figure she had been in the past two books. Any mention of other characters would be a spoiler. There are several surprises that are very un-Varley like in this book but I think everyone will enjoy them. The book is dedicated to Irving Thalberg, Vlad the Impaler and Edward Teller - for good reason. I finished the book BEFORE I got home from Disclave - and I do not normally spend cons reading. I could not put it down, however. It is one of the best SF books I have read this year (out of a sorry lot for sure). liz// ------------------------------ Date: 31 May 84 10:42:36-PDT (Thu) From: decvax!dartvax!lorien @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Wanted: Pointers to Ayn Rand and Libertarianism I've just finished Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged" and found it stimulating and enjoyable. Glancing through a book called "The philosophical thought of Ayn Rand" in the book store today, I noticed a reference to libertarian philosophy. I've seen this mentioned to several times on the net, but have never read anything on it (or have I?). Could someone tell me the connection between this and Rand (I thought she was an Objectivist..?) and/or point me towards some good discussions of libertarianism (?). I'd also appreicate archives of the discussion I remember from net.philosophy a few months back on Rand's ideas. Any other pointers will also be appreciated. --Lorien Y. Pratt "One can no more look at his mind Dartmouth College Library with his mind than see the pupils Hanover, NH 03755 of his eyes with his eyes" --Hakuin decvax!dartvax!lorien ------------------------------ Date: 31 May 84 8:04:57-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!andrew @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Best non-human aliens "I'd certainly agree that my favorite aliens are the threesome in Asimov's "The Gods Themselves." However, I refrained from posting them as non-human because, apart from having three sexes in their race, their personalities are quite human. In fact, the whole race is a parody (intentional or not, I don't know) on the Parent, Child, and Adult of Transactional Analysis, a more-or-less serious psychological movement started about 15 years ago. One of the beings is extremely emotional (Child), another very practical and strict about the rules (Parent), and the third logical but curious (Adult)." The three aliens also map into the three partitions of the mind in Freud's psychoanalytic model: the child is the id, the adult is the ego, and the parent is the superego. This is not coincidence, as TA is psychoanalysis rehashed. -- Andrew Klossner (decvax!tektronix!orca!andrew) [UUCP] (orca!andrew.tektronix@rand-relay) [ARPA] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 May 84 14:42:24 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: summer sf/fantasy films Here's the lastest list, with opening dates for Los Angeles. Most will probably open on the same date in most other large American cities. June 1 "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock" June 8 "Streets of Fire" (may be opening June 1) "Ghostbusters" "Gremlins" June 22 "The Last Starfighter" July 6 "Conan The Destroyer" July 13 "The Philadelphia Experiment" "Supergirl" (I had heard a report that this would be delayed until Christmas) July 27 "The Neverending Story" "Visionquest" (not sure it's sf/fantasy, but title sounds like it) August 10 "Buckaroo Banzai" August 13 "The Muppets Take Manhattan" August 17 "Sheena, Queen of the Jungle" "Red Dawn" Beware of the usual cancellations and changes of schedules. A couple of these haven't been mentioned on sf-lovers before, so I'll give a little more detail. "Buckaroo Banzai" is "Unusual sci-fi comedy with heroes, villains, and a rock & roll-lovin' physicist."; John Lithgow, Peter Weller, Jeff Goldblum, and Christopher Lloyd star. "Red Dawn" is an "action thriller about a Communist takeover of America", directed by John Milius, starring Patrick Swayze and C. Thomas Howell. (Quotes from Michael Auerbach, "LA Weekly".) Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs ------------------------------ Date: Thu 31 May 84 19:29:54-EDT From: Peter G. Trei Subject: High-speed film. Well, I had been told it was unlikely that I saw what I thought I saw, so I checked. You CAN detect the flicker in TV and movies, but only under good conditions. These are: 1: When an object moves rapidly past a strongly contrasting background, you can detect the individual frames (as afterimages?). It must move more than its own length each frame. 2: When an object moves across the screen quickly, and you track it with your eyes, it remains blurred. This does not happen under continuous light. I checked this out while watching GREYSTOKE (great movie) in 70 mm this weekend, and found scenes where both of these effects could be observed. They did not come frequently, and then mainly in highly active sequences when your mind is more on what is happening to plot than on picking holes in the illusion. I wonder if directors subconciously learn to advoid such scenes because they 'feel phony'. Try looking for yourself; the easiest case is when a dark object moves rapidly across the sky, when the strobing is sometimes visible even on TV. Note when I say 'rapidly' I do not mean mph, but in time from screen edge to screen edge. A big screen definitely helps, as does sitting fairly close. If you still doubt that the eye can resolve single frames on TV, consider the 'snow' on an unused channel. If you could not resolve at TV speeds, it would look flat grey, no? Does anyone know when and why 24 fps became the accepted standard? I suspect that it was the lowest speed at which flicker can almost always be ignored. At the time it was adopted, proabably no one had done any real research into the use of higher rates due to technical limitations. Even if they had, the studios would probably have gone ahead with 24 fps to save on film. Similarly, why was the higher frame rate for TV adopted? Phospher limitations? Because it matches the AC line frequency? I am still looking forward to ShowScan, though I have heard that the pizza/entertainment business is in a slump these days. see you at DECUS, Peter Trei Oc.Trei%cu20b@Columbia-20 212-5690282 (dani, whats your phone?) ------------------------------ Date: 31 May 84 10:11:49-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!hao!ames-lm!barry @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re:Re: 2001/10 [Is this food for thought? Or thought for food?] > ...I doubt, really, whether any SF > movie, 2001 apart, qualifies as a Great Film, and it'll probably > be a while before there's another (OK maybe Solaris - personally I > fell asleep). Whatever one may think about the Lucases and > Spielbergs of this world they are not in the same league as > Kubrick,and we should just be grateful for good workmanlike > enjoyable SF films to keep rolling out (Close Encounters > excepted). Let's all bear in mind Sturgeon's Law > "90% of everything is crap". > so long, and thanks for all the fish, > deryk. Disagree. "2001" may be more profound than "Star Wars", but that doesn't make it better, or mean it took more talent to make. I would list the following SF films as Great Films: 2001 A Clockwork Orange Star Wars Close Encounters of the Third Kind This list is not exhaustive, either, but since the subject was Kubrick/Lucas/Spielberg... Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA Electric Avenue: {dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames-lm!barry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 1984 05:42 EDT From: RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Never order out in India... Well, I caught IJatToD (gee, finally a pronounceable acronym) tonight. Giving that it's 5am local and I've been hacking punch-down blocks all night, some impressions: First off, not a movie for the very young. While it is in no way outstanding in terms of gore, it does rate up there in nightmare-producing potential. I know there were scenes that had *me* squirming in my seat (I have trouble dealing with insects...). It's certainly well paced. The consensus among the people I went to the show with was that we all needed a good rest after it was done. The logical Karen Allen actress did a good job, in a tricky part. How'd *you* like to have to play against an overblown persona like Jones? And, of course, all the jokes, chase scenes, desperate situations, and stunts we've come to know and love. Really impressive was a single camera, no cut, skydive gag. I know who *I'd* like to own a 1% share in this summer... Sorting 50-Pair Cable, James ARPA:JMTURN@MIT-MC Usenet: Left as an exercise to the reader ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 May 84 9:50:14 EDT From: Craig MacFarlane Subject: Indiana Jones **spoiler??  Hello, I just saw Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, and while not spoiling anything (unlike the trailers) the name of the cafe in the beginning was named OB-wan cafe. Just thought it was funny... craig ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 84 22:50:51 edt From: Beth Gazouleas Subject: Indiana Jones, not a spoiler What did everyone think of the new Indiana Jones movie? i rather enjoyed it, though I did think it got somewhat gross at points. Around the middle of the movie I decided I'd seen TOO many insects. The experience of seeing the movie was rather aptly compared to riding 12 roller coasters, one right after another. I didn't breath much 'til it was over, I was too busy gasping. I won't review it in detail, for fear of spoiling it for those who haven't seen it yet. But I will say that I recommend seeing it. It wasn't nearly as good as the first movie, but it was fun. And despite some mixed reviews, I think everyone should see it once and form their own opinions. beth (beth%upenn-asp@upenn@csnet-relay) ------------------------------ Date: 23 May 84 18:10:41-PDT (Wed) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!greg @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Indiana Jones - Non-Spoiler Just saw "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom" this afternoon. Overall, it's lots of fun. The previous note that suggested that you would need your pacemakers was not too far off. Action is fast, furious, and funny. I'm not quite as satisfied with IJATOD as I was with ROTLA because some of the sequences are just a bit too outrageous and required too much suspension of disbelief. Since this claims to be a non-spoiler, I won't say anything specific about the plot, but I will say that it features lots of good ideas for dinner with your mother-in-law.... (Or maybe for your boss?) I wasn't bored..... And I'll go back to see it again. Greg Noel, NCR Torrey Pines Greg@sdcsvax.UUCP or Greg@nosc.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 24 May 84 7:05:34-PDT (Thu) From: ihnp4!ihuxx!dpa @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Indiana Jones - Non-Spoiler (Non-Spoiler) I agree with Greg Noel conserning IJatToD. I counted 3 incidents, two at the beginning and 1 near the end, that belonged in a 3 Stooges short. One other point is that there is a great deal of graphic violence in the film. For some reason, the movie is rated PG but I'm not sure I'd want my 10 year old, if I had one, seeing this. Well, other than being briefly ridiculous and getting grossed out from time to time, I did enjoy the film. The escape sequence at the end was spectacular and as good or better than anything in RotLA. -- Dave Allen ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 May 84 19:52 PDT From: Harris Shiffman Subject: Indy II & ST III Just came out of a showing of Indiana Jones And The Temple of Doom. Without revealing anything about plot, I would say that this film is even more exciting and faster-paced than Raiders. One warning: do not (and I repeat, NOT) eat immediately before going to the theatre. A second warning: if you're the squeamish type (as I am), avoid the first ten to fifteen rows of the theatre, depending upon screen size. Things get a tad gross during the first half hour to forty-five minutes. Indy II was preceded by a trailer for Star Trek III, wherein the Enterprise, with Kirk et. al. in residence, is having the royal feces knocked out of it by a Klingon battlecruiser, along with a voice-over which announces "The Last Voyage of The Sharship Enterprise". Looks like fun. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 4-Jun SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #108 *** EOOH *** Date: 4 Jun 84 1239-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #108 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 4 Jun 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 108 Today's Topics: Books - Hoyle & Varley & Soviet SF & SF vs Mainstrem Literature (3 msgs), Films - Long Lines & Dune & The Reason for 24 fps & Star Wars (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - The Restaurant at the End of the Net - Episode 2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 4 Jun 84 02:01 MST From: Deryk Barker Subject: Fred Hoyle Sorry you're wrong - "The Black Cloud" was one of Hoyle's solo efforts - most of his books after this were written in collaboration with his son Geoffrey - but not TBC. so long, and thanks for all the fish, deryk. ------------------------------ Subject: Demon Date: Mon, 4 Jun 84 08:49:06 EDT From: Peter Midford Here's another enthusiastic vote for Demon, definitely the best book I've read this year. kir azu, Peter. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jun 84 2:18:15-PDT (Sat) From: decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: SOVIET SCIENCE FICTION Just for the record, Asimov did *not* edit SOVIET SCIENCE FICTION and MORE SOVIET SCIENCE FICTION; he merely provided the introductions. The lack of credit for an editor (seems to me I should know who edited them, it must be in Tuck's SF Encyclopedia, if not Nicholls') has lead many to believe that Asimov was the editor. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Date: 23 May 84 13:52:14 EDT Subject: The Failed Promise For those of you who just tuned in (or those of you who just switched the channel from watching V) the foofaraw is currently about whether or not mainstream literature will be absorbed by SF within the coming century. I say it will. Others, notably Reiher & Cain, say no way. I see the situation this way: SF is broadening year by year, growing less completely technological and less adventure oriented, and seems to be heading toward a general understanding of the way human beings operate within today's (and possibly tomorrow's) universe. Mainstream, on the other hand, has been growing steadily more introspective, more limited in scope, and always more prone to despair, ever since the end of the Victorian era. Mainstream in the last fifty years has contracted so much I greatly fear it will vanish into its own self-made singularity, leaving behind a single message: It's all pointless! So what's better? What is more "true"? What the heck is literature for, anyway? My definition is this (I've said it here before): Literature is the mapping of the human spirit by the language of the culture. Literature is NOT the culture, nor does it direct the culture. It follows the culture, and reflects those things in which the culture believes most strongly. My opinion is that the literature of the past fifty years comes nowhere near an accurate reflection of American or British culture. (I can't speak for other cultures.) The optimism of the postwar period is unequalled in history. And yet what are we offered? Despair, despair, despair. "We are the hollow men/We are the stuffed men/" Crap. We rate a little better than that. Something broke when the Victorians gave way. I feel something of the spirit which prompted Tennyson to write, in "Locksley Hall": Down along the beach I wandered, nourishing a youth sublime/ With the fairy tales of science, and the long result of time. "Fairy tales" implies not ridicule but wonder, here. Tennyson was not afraid of science, nor did he hold it in disdain. He was ready to wait out the long result of time and see what happened. The literature of the last fifty years seems to have been written by broken old men who prefer to make literature reflect their own failings rather than the larger mythic consciousness of their people. I suppose it's impossible to say with certainty whether a work of literature is good or not. So I guess this whole argument settles down to a draw. I accuse the mainstream of failing to accurately reflect our twentieth century culture which is not, I hold, a culture in the grip of despair. I also think that day by day, as our writers grow better, SF more accurately reflects the underlying optimism of the postwar era. Who's right? Who knows? You tell me. --Jeff Duntemann duntemann.wbst@xerox ------------------------------ Date: Thu 24 May 84 17:45:58-PDT From: CAIN@SRI-AI.ARPA Subject: Literature of Hope/Despair Regarding Jeff Duntemann's reply to my statement about there not being a science/art split and about SF not being mature... We definitely DO NOT agree. And you do not have my endorsement. I still feel strongly that the science/art split is much more complex than you think. Whether someone sees his own discipline as "the frosting on the cake" or as "the whole cake" is clearly a matter of individual perception -- it is not inherent in the discipline. Any you clearly voice your own perceptions. Why pile the blame for despair on mainstream? Why give the gift of hope solely to SF (my god, what literature has more thoroughly wallowed in galactic destruction?)? If you feel all of mainstream literature is the voice of existential despair and has died, then might I suggest you read the wrong stories? Credentials (e.g. majors in English) don't do it. I have my own opinions about existential despair and young scientists, but I'll deliver that one on request only. I still maintain SF has not matured appreciably in 40 years. Re-written westerns and romances on far-flung worlds, yes. Codified the rules of FTL travel, sensors, and photon torpedoes, yes. But SF is still a special-interest genre, and it does reject alot of new blood if the rules aren't followed. I, too, want it to grow. Up. I like SF (surprised?), but only about 10 percent of it. I like mainstream (but only about 10 percent of it). However, if you feel STARTIDE RISING (which I place solidly in the unfortunate 90 percent) is genuinely an example of the maturity (or quality) of SF, then I guess it demonstrates we are not all of us alike. ... ron cain (cain@sri-ai) ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jun 84 14:59 EDT (Sat) From: _Bob To: duntemann.wbst@XEROX Subject: Bridge over troubled writers From: duntemann.wbst at XEROX.ARPA While grubbing for my B.A. in English, I was forced to wade through volumes of otherwise sensible men wailing over the death of God, over the lack of meaning in the universe, and lord only knows what else. When my instructor earnestly stated that the central question confronting modern man is "Why not commit suicide?" (this after two volumes of Camus) * * * The reason for that is that they KNOW, on some subconscious level, that they don't have the experience to understand the forces that have begun shaping tomorrow. Mainstream literature has hit a dead end. The people who write it can no longer, um, grok the wholeness of human experience because they failed Physics for Poets and think math is for nerds. right *O*N* _B ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Jun 84 16:14:21 PDT From: Scott Turner Subject: Indy II & ST III I heard on the radio Friday morning that no one waited out overnight to see Star Trek III (in Hollywood, that is). Rather surprising, considering that Indy II had people sleeping out 2 nights in advance. From the lines I've seen, I'd say that Indy II is outselling ST III even during prime time. -- Scott ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Jun 84 16:52:49 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: trailer for "Dune" I saw a trailer for "Dune" yesterday, for the first time. It looks weird, unfamiliar, and very interesting. Lots of action in the trailer, too. It looks, from the trailer, like they really should have gotten Orson Welles instead of Kenneth MacMillan to play Baron Harkonnen. MacMillan looks faintly ridiculous. Besides, "We shall sell no spice before its time." was such a great line. The trailer says very little about the plot, and shows relatively few effects. We get a momentary closeup of what is probably a Guild navigator's face, but no sign of the worms. Peter ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Jun 84 16:48 MST From: "Jerry Crow"@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Reason for 24 fps Reply-to: JCrow%PCO-Multics@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA >Does anyone know when and why 24 fps became the accepted >standard? I suspect that it was the lowest speed at which >flicker can almost always be ignored. .... I believe the 24 fps speed is the minimum speed required for lip sync -- i.e, the minimum speed at which the sound track can be synchronized with lip motion and have the latter appear natural. /Jerry JCrow%PCO-Multics@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS ------------------------------ Date: 29 May 84 7:08:58-PDT (Tue) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!ut-sally!ut-ngp!ables @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Nonsense in V (for Vader) [that armor's too strong for blasters!] >> Vader didn't off the Emperor, though. > Oh, yeah? Don't you remember the end of Return of the Jedi when > Vader threw the Emperor down that pit? Yeah, but that wasn't Vader, it was Anakin Skywalker (from a certain point of view). :-) -King ARPA:ables@ut-ngp UUCP:{ctvax,ihnp4,kpno,seismo}!ut-sally!ut-ngp!ables ------------------------------ Date: Sat 2 Jun 84 18:26:28-EDT From: JACOB@CMU-CS-C.ARPA Subject: Star Wars I'm sure that this will seem like sacrilege to many people, but it has to be said. Star Wars is NOT a great movie. It was a lot of fun, but it had holes in the science, in the characterization, in the 'drama', etc. that you could drive a truck through. I really enjoyed it the first time I saw it. I thought it was pretty cool the second time. I will avoid seeing it again for many years, because I almost certainly wouldn't enjoy it now. I am not coming out in favor of any other SF movie as 'great' either, since I haven't seen any other twice. On the other hand, there are only 3 that I might think were great if I had. First Obi Wan, then Darth; I can't wait for Luke... Jacob Butcher ------------------------------ Date: 30 May 84 10:23:00 EDT From: Saul Subject: The Restaurant at the End of the Net - Episode 2 The Restaurant at the End of the Net Episode 2 (Arnold Lint and the crew of the Infinity are once again faced by the dreaded Flamers. The Flamers are bombarding our heroes with an infinitely pointless diatribe on the legal points of rolling up ones shirtsleeves.) Gillian: What can we do to stop this? Martin: Why bother, it's all hopeless anyway. Rod: Look you, I've had just about enough of your lip. Martin: I don't have lips, I'm afraid. My assembler must have been in a bad mood and forgot them . . . ah well (sigh). Gillian: Well, we better do something!! Xaphod: We've tried everything else, why don't we try to out-stupid them? Arnold Lint: Don't you need at least a Master's in Computer Science to attempt that? Rod: Yah, but let's try anyway!! Xaphod: Right, what's the most idiotic topic we can throw at them? Gillian: Spelling mistakes in Net submissions? Xaphod: No. Rod: Profanity on the Net? Xaphod: No. I'm afraid this won't work. Arnold Lint: What will we do? Flamer: Now, let's turn our attention to the psycho-sexual ramifications of user's having to hit the 'n' key repetitively when reading Netnews. Does this form a non-compliant attitude that is reflected in the individuals sex life? If Netnews becomes too dull, will we all go sterile from the 'n-key' complex? Gillian: I can't take it. Rod: There's one last hope. If we pray to the goddess of the Net, we may be saved. Arnold Lint: The what? Martin: You really don't want to hear this. Xaphod: Quiet. The goddess of the Net - Laedeyarh-wehn-kenobi. Legend has it she is from the Valley and has amazing powers over some denizens of the Net. Arnold Lint: What kind of power? Xaphod: I don't know, but her followers even chipped in for air fare so she could sing "Let's get physical" at the Superbowl half-time. Rod: (Seeing Arnold Lint's look of disgust) Yah, a pretty sick bunch. Gillian: Well, it's worth a shot. Xaphod: Okay, when I signal you, chant 'fershure' three times. Others: Right. Xaphod: Oh Laedeyarh-wehn-kenobi, protect us from these grody-to-the-max flamers. Others: Fershure! Fershure! Fershure! Xaphod: Oh Laedeyarh-wehn-kenobi, vanquish these flamers with a totally awesome laser blast. Others: Fershure! Fershure! Fershure! (From out of nowhere a high pitched, whining voice is heard to say "Oh wow, flamers. Like, gag me with a spoon." The flamers ships then implode into nothingness. The voice then says "Far out! Like, may the force be, like, with you, you know." Arnold Lint and the Infinity crew are left standing on the bridge looking into the newly empty space before them.) Rod: That was amazing! Xaphod: That was amazingly amazing. Martin: Wasn't all that great. Arnold Lint: That has to be the most impressive display of power in the Net! [********************************************************************* "The Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net" points out that the most impressive display of power in the Net was the result of the actual cooperation of subscribers of net.singles, net.flame, AND net.religion. According to the story, this unholy trinity was capable of twisting even the most simple of statements into states of uncomprehensibly circuitous illogic. The group went their separate ways when the net.religion group called the net.singles group immoral sexual deviants and the net.flame group blaspheming agnostics who would all burn in hell. The net.flames group fried the net.religion group, but agreed that the net.singles group were real sick. The net.singles group had an orgy. ********************************************************************] Rod: Well, lets get going to Microways. Arnold Lint: Yah, I'm getting hungry. Gillian: I hope the food is good. Martin: I'm sure it will be awful. We'll all get food poisoning and die in convulsive fits, spitting up bits of intestine and semi-digested fruit cup. ******************** End Of Part 2 ******************** What will be on the menu at Microways? Is the roast beef purple? To find out . . . Tune in next time . . . same Net-time . . . same Net-channel. ***************That's All Folks ************************** ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 4-Jun SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #109 *** EOOH *** Date: 4 Jun 84 1308-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #109 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 4 Jun 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 109 Today's Topics: Television - V: The Final Battle (6 msgs), Miscellaneous - Aliens in SF & Blowing Up Planets & Drying Planets & How to Get Rich (4 msgs) & Thermdynamics ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 29 May 84 18:18 EDT From: Aspnes@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: Re: V: The Series Worse than Lost in Space For shame! Picking on poor TV series that never made the slightest claim to be real SF. I enjoyed Lost in Splace once (when I was 5), and I even though Space:1999 was amusing (when I was 8). You can't judge a series without considering its target market. Does this save V? Hard to say. My youngest sister (age 7) liked it. Maybe it's time us poor, overly-intelligent adults abandoned television as we keep threatening to and move on to other (and better) topics. --Jim (no longer age 8) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 May 84 14:23 CST From: Nichael Cramer Cc: korfhage@ucla-cs.arpa Subject: TV SCIENCE[???] FICTION[???????] I'm afraid I really don't understand all the gibberish that thrown around on this net and all the time wasted on that piece of **** called "V". For god's sake people, this was a TELEVISION show! Of course it was illogical! Of course any and all science was wrong! TV has NEVER shown any sign of being capable of producing anything of any technical sophistication or subtlety. After years of such intelligence-insulting drivel as "STAR TREK" and "THE DAY AFTER" written and package for eight-year-olds [of all ages], why do you suddenly show outrage when they produce another trash-heap like "V"? One of the most insidious effects of TV is the way it shuts its victims off from other sources. As a specific example, in the current round of suggestions for future SF movies was a call for Miller's "Canticle For Liebowitz". If you can pull yourself away for your glass teat long enough, you'll find that NPR's Radio Theater is currently playing an excellent version of "Canticle" [it played here in Dallas about two months ago]. These people have also done magnificent jobs with "STAR WARS" and "THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK" as well as playing "HITCHHIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY". ------------------------------ Date: 30 May 84 13:52:02-PDT (Wed) From: hplabs!oliveb!oliven!olivee!gnome @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Space nazis and people who complain The last set of three V episodes (in my opinion) fall into two categories -- Day 1&2 -- Pretty interesting, good character development (I especially liked the mercenaries) and lots of blasters-and-bullets action. The narrated intro's sounded like something from The Untouchables and should have been left out entirely. Day 3 -- I liked the first 2/3 of the show for the same reason as above. But the last 3rd of the show seemed like the writers went on strike and the NBC executives had to pit their tiny little brains against each other and dig up an ending! Ugh! They REALLY screwed up the ending so badly that it seemed like I changed channels to the Disney channel (which no one should be subjected to...) and had somehow brought the V characters with me. What a "Waste of good luggage!" >From the people who cancelled Star Trek, what else would expect? Gary ------------------------------ Date: 30 May 84 18:09:01-PDT (Wed) From: ihnp4!fortune!grw @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Nonsense in V (for Vader) [that armor's too strong for blasters!] >>> Vader didn't off the Emperor, though. >> Oh, yeah? Don't you remember the end of Return of the Jedi when >> Vader threw the Emperor down that pit? >Yeah, but that wasn't Vader, it was Anakin Skywalker >(from a certain point of view). :-) Also, Diane didn't off the "emperor", she offed John. The emperor was back on the homeworld. -Glenn ------------------------------ Date: 31 May 84 4:27:21-PDT (Thu) From: ihnp4!houxm!houxz!vax135!floyd!cmcl2!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!c From: hris @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Complaints Actually, I'm too lazy to write letters to TV studios, etc. I just don't watch TV. Aside from ``accidental'' viewing (e.g., at a friend's house), I haven't seen any televised programs in several years. I can't say I miss any of it, either. In-Real-Life: Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci (301) 454-7690 UUCP: {seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@maryland ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jun 84 14:48:48-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!rdin!perl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Nonsense in V (for Vader) >>>> Vader didn't off the Emperor, though. >>> Oh, yeah? Don't you remember the end of Return of the Jedi when >>> Vader threw the Emperor down that pit? >>Yeah, but that wasn't Vader, it was Anakin Skywalker >>(from a certain point of view). :-) > Also, Diane didn't off the "emperor", she offed John. > The emperor was back on the homeworld. But before that she shot John's superior (and the most superior one on the ship), the character played by Sarah Douglas. (This is amazing! This is one of the most interesting discussions I've seen and, so far, the whole damn thing fits on one screen!) Robert Perlberg Resource Dynamics Inc. New York philabs!rdin!perl ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jun 84 15:36 EDT (Sun) From: Mijjil (Matthew J Lecin) Reply-to: Lecin@Ru-Blue Subject: [ihnp4!mit-eddie!gds at Ucb-Vax] - Non-human aliens Actually, an episode of Star Trek featured an intelligent alien which was totally unlike humans. I forget the name of the episode, but the creature was a Horta. This Star Trek episode was entitled "Devil in the Dark". The Horta was a lifeform based on silicon as opposed to carbon, as we human types are. Dr. McCoy gets to use his famous "I'm a doctor, not a brick layer!" line when Kirk wants him to patch the wounded Horta up. McCoy then decides that he is capable of "even curing a rainy day" when he succeeds in patching the Horta up with some silicon based CEMENT he had beamed down from the Enterprise... Die Young, Stay Pretty; {Mijjil} ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 84 13:39:47-PDT (Sun) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!ut-sally!utastro!ethan @ Ucb-Vax Subject: blowing up planets Sorry for the science but, Hutch writes: >One thing that may be being overlooked is the source of the >higher-numbered elements. There is to my knowledge no reason >for the Big Bang to have produced anything more complicated than >hydrogen, directly. According to the standard model the early universe contained matter which was predominantly hydrogen, but about 1/4 (by mass) helium. All heavier elements were made subsequently inside stars. A point which tends to confirm this is that the oldest stars are very poor in elements heavier than helium whereas young stars are a few percent heavier elements. "Only perverts use cute signoffs." Ethan Vishniac {kpno,charm,ut-sally}!utastro!ethan ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 84 13:24:32-PDT (Mon) From: ihnp4!zehntel!dual!amd70!fortune!wdl1!jme @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Re: drying planets... >> 1. There is a planet of amphibious(?) beings which is literally >> "drying" up, for any number of reasons.... > Okay, what are some of those reasons? Did everyone decide to > drink at the same time? (Or is it flush?) Planet-wide drought, caused by imbalances in the hydrogen-oxygen mixture of the planet's atmosphere. The same, caused by the planet moving out of orbit (closer to its sun). The same, caused by contamination of the planet's atmosphere (perhaps natural, perhaps not). > And, even if by some unbelievable process their water does > disappear, it would probabily be far easier to skim hydrogen of > the neighborhood gas giant and combine it with oxygen smelted from > any nearby rocky planetary body; at least compared to hauling > megamass of water over interstellar distances. That is assuming those type of planets exist in their solar system. If they don't, they must come to other planets. And if they are going to do that, they might as well get water in its natural form (even if they have to steal it) rather than go to Jupiter and do it the hard way. Be ye moby, for I am moby. Greg Skinner (gregbo) {decvax!genrad, eagle!mit-vax, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gds You can't trust anyone around here with the su password these days. ------------------------------ Date: 19 May 84 16:06:36-PDT (Sat) From: ihnp4!mit-eddie!gds @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: How to get rich with a time machine - (nf) > What about buying the newspaper from the day after the $20,000,000 > lottery numbers are drawn by leaping into the future and leaping > back to buy the ticket? How do we know this hasn't been done? Won't work unless you can jump to the exact spot where the winning ticket is. That requires clairvoyance. Time machines don't give away all the answers ... Be ye moby, for I am moby. Greg Skinner (gregbo) {decvax!genrad, eagle!mit-vax, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gds Joy is in the ears that hear. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 May 84 15:10:46 EDT From: Ron Natalie Subject: Re: How to get rich with a time machine - (nf) Those of us who are members of the Committee for Real Time deplore those of you coniving on how to make personal advantage of time travel. -Ron ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 84 16:27:47-PDT (Mon) From: decvax!dartvax!markv @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: How to get rich with a time machine - (nf) >Won't work unless you can jump to the exact spot where the winning >ticket is. That requires clairvoyance. Time machines don't give >away all the answers ... Not all state lotteries work like that, however. In Massachusetts (and therefore at MIT!) you simply pick a series of numbers. The drawing is done by generating a sequence of numbers. The jackpot is divided between all who have matching numbers. Sometimes it's no one, sometimes it's four or five people. (If you have two identical tickets, you get two shares! This happened to some lucky fool a few weeks ago who accidently bought two of the same ticket.) So, the method of buying that paper and going back in time would work, if you were playing Megabucks (the aforementioned lottery game.) Mark Vita Dartmouth College {decvax,cornell,linus}!dartvax!markv ------------------------------ Date: 24 May 1984 1548-EDT From: Warren Sander Reply-to: Sander at DEC-MARLBORO Subject: How to get poor via time travel In reply to all the "sell gas to Patton" ways to get rich all one has to look at is the price of gas today and in 1944-45. Even with the war and rationing gas still sold at about $.30 - $.40 per gallon. Even if Patton was extremely rich and would by your gas how can you make money buying $1.20 per gallon gas and selling it for say $.50 - $.60 per gallon (Patton wouldn't pay $1.40 or so for gas). That is more like how to get poor via time travel. There are better ways to get rich via time travel. Get into your trusty time machine go back to say 1787 or so and get a job of some sort. work for a month or two and take your money and come back to the present. You now have in your hands some very rare 1787 currency that a coin collector will pay through the nose to have (if you can find one with a large nose and a big wallet). The same is true of Stamps. Just a very small investment in something that is insignificant enough to upset history (would anyone notice a couple of pennies, dimes and nickels and a few 1/2 cent stamps????). Going back and picking up a few pounds of Gold from Sutters mill or winning the lottery could upset the flow of history enough to cause catastrophic results today. Enough for now... Anybody want to buy some mint condition 1787 $1 bills?? Warren Sander Sander @ Dec-marlboro ------------------------------ Date: Tue 22 May 84 10:53:13-EDT From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA Subject: Second Law of Thermdynamics In my opinion, the best discussion of the controversy concerning the Second law of Thermdynamics is contained in Natural Philosophy of Cause and Chance - Max Born (Dover pb). If you are interested, go read the book. If you are interested enough to put up with an overbrief summary, one follows. First, there is no such law in a Newtonian universe. The analysis of this problem by the Ehrenfests has suffered no serious challenge, and it shows (a) The motion of Newtonian particles is fully reversible; that is, there is no "arrow of time" (b) the theorems of Laplace and Zermelo, that a collection of Newtonian particles will eventually return arbitrary closely to its initial configuration (provided it has negative total energy), are valid. (c) the proofs of the "law" are circular. In particular, the H-theorem, which is the statistical-mechanical foundation of the law, can be proved only by fudging the collision integral to contain an assumption of intrinsic randomness. This proves that a collection of ordered particles, subjected to random forces, will become disordered. That is not quite good enough. Secondly, while there is a direction of time in most quantum theories, there is not an absolute second law either. In particular, there are objects that cannot be brought into thermal equilibrium with their surroundings, and so adiabatic transformations cannot generally be made on such objects. Most "proofs" of increasing entropy in fact prove that quantum systems are "more likely" to evolve towards more disordered states. This unfortunately does not prove that there is a secular increase in entropy, since the unlikely events may correspond to very large changes. As an analogy, a sawtooth curve slopes downhill "almost" everywhere, but its average height remains the same. It would be too much of a digression to discuss those cosmological theories that predict violations of the FIRST law of thermodynamics. Robert Firth PS: "What one man is able to imagine, other men will be able to do" (Jules Verne) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 4-Jun SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #110 *** EOOH *** Date: 4 Jun 84 1349-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #110 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 4 Jun 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 110 Today's Topics: ******SPECIAL STAR TREK ISSUE****** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 Aug 83 20:52:47 EDT From: Jaffe@RUTGERS Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!! The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the movie "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock". People who have not yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following messages. The Moderator ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jun 84 09:59:30 PDT (Friday) From: Conde.PA@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Early Review of Star Trek III I saw the Search for Spock early last night, and I found it much more enjoable than, say Indiana Jones and the Temple of Money (I know I'm comparing apples and oranges). I know that I'm tremendously biased, but this was just as good as the second movie. It kept you guessing all the way, it had the adventure we remember from the "Khan", but on the other hand, managed to involve the characters as we expect from a normal episode. Rather than making this a reunion, they showed the problems with having a 20 year old ship and old crew members. The treatment of Kirk's son, David was rather superficial, and I would have wanted more. On the other hand, we saw a lot of Savik, the vulcan woman who we saw in "Khan". To me, she is beginning to remind me of a regular crew member. There was a lot of humor in this movie that uplifted it, in spite of the tragedy that surrounds it. There was a lot crammed into this movie, and the movie went by quickly. And yes, I won't tell you what happens at the end. But here's a hint. The credits in the theater handouts gave no clue as to what happenes. Here are some objections that I have. (**Extra** spoiler warning) The bit about Savik helping out the young Spock going through "pains" was awkward. What's going on there? What she supposed to do?? The women standing around the Vulcan ceremony was totally out of place with inappropriate dress. It spoils the atmosphere. They BLEW UP THE ENTERPRISE!!!! unforgivable! But boy, did it go out in style! Of course, they could build a better one in the next movie. The Klingon ship seems to change size. When it's standing head to head with the Enterprise, it looks about the same size. Yet it's supposed to be a small scout ship. The Klingons do have a lot of character in this movie. Different Klingons DO have different personalities! David's killed too quickly. It's done too callously, but come to think of it, he does act as what Kirk's son would do. The Excelsior looks miserable. Some improvement! Bar scene seems rather gimicky. Too much of that Star Wars influence here. My favorite line: Klingon: "Aren't you going to kill me?" Kirk: "No, so I lied." Dan Conde ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jun 84 14:48:56 EDT (Friday) Subject: The Search For Spock From: Chris Heiny Well, I'll try not to spoil it for you... A good movie, much better than TMP, but just as good as TWOK. The ladies in the flimsy gowns shouldn't have been there. Klingons are interesting and their ships are nifty. They really tried to get their money's worth from the smoke machines. The whole cast will probably get lung cancer. Go see it. Chris ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jun 1984 17:14:33-EDT From: Robert.Zimmermann at CMU-EE-FARADAY Subject: STIII Just got back from seeing the afternoon show. Really good. My first complaint is that there should have been less time spent on flashbacks to the last movie. Perhaps more time spent on the Grissom battle. My second complaint is that I find the need for 'proto-matter' totally irrelevant to the story. I guess it's better than stealing water... Anybody for calling this movie 'grep spock *' ????? raz ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jun 84 18:35:15 PDT (Fri) From: Sonia Schwartzberg Subject: Star Trek III Well. As a friend I saw the movie with said as we were leaving after the film: "This is probably the first film in film history devoted entirely to reclaiming a character." In fact, as I sit here typing, I am getting a verbal review... "stock effects"..."cliches, and good lines" "a reasonably nice story"..."there was actually a plot and things happened" "space mat work not that good in general, but some was well done"... "good fractal fire scenes"... "I'd give it three stars"... "worth seeing" "restrained use of special effects, heavy use of funny lines" I mostly agree with the above comments, but I'd like to add that the Star Trek people are still doing the things we all forgave them for in the 60's -- scantily clad women, alien cultures borrowing too heavily from earth's own cultures, really horrible nasty ugly mean aliens, (Romulans? Klingons? Who can tell, they keep changing them...), and of course what I call the "Teela Brown Syndrom", the ever-present nick-of- time luck that Kirk never loses. I must admit that there were some very funny lines, but the dialog and script were inconsistant and there were also some pretty terrible lines. I especially like one particular choice of casting, and Hill Street Blues fans will note character Howard Hunter present in a rather fitting role. Should you go see it? If you saw and loved both of the other S.T. movies, by all means see this one. If your response to the others was "eh" consider a theater that has discount prices for early shows. If you hated the other two movies then why are you reading this review? ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jun 84 13:53:36 EDT From: Ed Subject: ST III (not a spoiler) Just came out from seeing Star Trek III, and, without giving away any of the plot, I thought it was a very good film. Maybe a little too hard to believe, but I guess it was simply following the basic SF rule - start with a fantasy premise, but make the story believable afterwards. For anyone who has seen it yet, however: at one point several actors (no names mentioned) were looking up at the sky from a planet and seeing something burning (am not saying what it was), and seeing smoke trailing from it. How can smoke exist in space, where there is not atmosphere to hold it? Or could that have been light deflected from particles from the burning object? -Not adverse to waiting in long lines (for a purpose), -Ed Blanchett ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Jun 84 00:59:25 CDT From: Stan Barber Subject: ST III Cc: stan@rice.ARPA, phil@rice.ARPA, wert@rice.ARPA, rbbb@rice.ARPA, Cc: fbag@rice.ARPA Having just seen the new Star Trek Movie on Friday, I decided to wait and see what effect the events in the film had on me before attempting to verbalize it. A bit of backround: I have been involved in Star Trek since the beginning having watched all the original episodes when they originally ran and many times thereafter. I have the books, comics, compendiums, maps, etc. etc. etc. I guess I am a Trekkie, Trekker or whatever one calls devotees of Gene Roddenberry's creation. Here is my thoughts:::::: ST III was the aftermath of ST II, an epilogue more than anything else. Yes, there is action and yes, what happens is important. However, the movie plays heavily on what has happened before (including what happened in the TV series). If you have not been familiar with the ST mythos, the movie will be confusing (not that it won't entertain, but knowing what happens when Kirk tells the computer "Zero, Zero, DESTRUCT, Zero" and how such a tactic was used before makes understanding the situation all the more vivid). True Trekkies/Trekkers will love the movie cause it deals with the people of Star Trek in an even deeper and more meaningful manner than ever before. Those attached to certain familiar things in the ST world may be a bit upset. It is evident that there will be more Star Trek, but at the end of the film I was unsure of the road the next movie would take. ST IV will not be the continuing voyages of the Starship Enterprise and it is not evident at all what will be the fate of the main ST characters as a result of the action in this film. Truly, STIV will be a surprise in many ways and is wide open in terms of available plots and character involvement. I liked the movie, but it only whetted my desire to see more. Commercially, this would be termed a success. Artistically, I see it as a postlude and a prelude and I am not sure I am patient enough to wait. I guess I have no choice. Spock is dead! Long Live Spock! The Enterprise is dead! ..... Stan Barber sob@rice ------------------------------ Date: Sun 3 Jun 84 16:09:18-PDT From: Karl Geiger Subject: Star Trek III is every bit as satisfying as hoped for. This review is a spoiler so don't read further is you want to be surprised. Yes the teasers and trailers in theatres and MTV are right: Kirk dons a leather jacket and takes the Enterprise on its final joyride. This film is the conclusion to Star Trek II and the career of the Enterprise. The story picks up right where Star Trek II leaves off. Kirk's son and Saavik are exploring the Genesis planet created in the previous film. The battered and blackened Enterprise and her crew limp home to dock with a humongous space station in Earth orbit. All is not well, however. McCoy is behaving strangely, as though posessed by some other intelligence. The Enterprise, now twenty-years old, is destined for the scrap heap, too badly batttle-damaged to refit. Back on the Genesis planet, wierd noises and bush-rattlings lead Saavik and David on a chase through the jungles. And Ambassador Sarek, Spock's dad (played againn by Mark Leonard), demands to know why Kirk failed his son by not saving Spock's "katra" (soul/mind). The Vulcans evidently place the departed's katra in a temple on a mystic mountain so that all the knowlege and experience of that individual may endure. "Everything that Spock was, is lost." In the meantime, the Klingoni have received data about the Genesis effect and decide it would make a neat weapon. The Bird-of-Prey scoutship, captained convincingly by Christopher Lloyd ("Crazy Jim" from tv's "Taxi" series), warps to the Genesis planet. There the Klingoni accidentally on purpose blow Saavik and David's ship from orbit, stranding them planetside. The Klingoni beam down a search team to find the two and check out the planet. The orbiting Bird-of-Prey disappears behind its cloaking device, a very convincing special effect. Back at starbase Kirk and Sarek figure out that Spock dumped himself to tape (McCoy) before jumping into the radiation-poisoned engine room ("Remember..."). The source of McCoy's schizophrenia and tendencies to use the word "logical" now are apparent; he is the possessor of Spock's katra. The Federation forbids transporting McCoy to Vulcan (via the Enterprise). Kirk, Scotty, Sulu, Uhura, and Chekov jury rig the controls and steal the Enterprise, bringing a "kidnapped" McCoy with them. The new, transwarp-equipped Excelsior attempts to give chase, but Scotty has sabotaged their warp-drive and computer by undoing three little screws. Saavik and David find a Vulcan boy of ten biological years age during a desert snowstorm. Obviously, the boy is clone of Spock, generated from the not-yet-dead tissues of his corpse by the power of the Genesis Effect. The planet and the boy undergo violent changes as they age rapidly. David has used "proto-matter", an unstable substance whose use is forbidden by mutual consent of all Federation scientists, to create the Genesis Effect. The boy and the planet are aging so fast that they are sure to die convulsively in a few days. The Klingoni find Saavik, David, and the vulcan adolescent. The Enterprise finds the Genesis planet. The Klingoni Bird-of-Prey finds the Enterprise. In a brief battle, the Enterprise minus shields, takes a severe hit but damages the Klingoni vessel (bad scaling in this starship battle. The Bid-of-Prey is supposed to be a small vessel with a total compliment of 12 officers and men, yet it appears almost as large as the Enterprise, a battle cruiser with ten times the firepower). Kirk, helpless, adrift in a nerveless hulk, attempts to bluff the Klingoni, who promptly kill David ("You Klingon bastards, you killed my son!" - a great line, repeated about five times). Kirk surrenders the Enterprise, but engages the destruct sequence just before he and every one else beam down to the planet surface. The stupid Klingon boarding party just make it to the bridge to hear the computer count down the last six seconds. Kirk and crew are safe planetside as they watch the shattered chunks of the Enterprise burn during reentry. The stranded protagonists overpower the two Klingoni guarding Saavik and the Vulcan young adult. The planet is starting to come apart at the seams: violent heavals, burning bushes, lava, storms. The Genesis Effect doesn't work. The Klingoni commander beams down and recaptures the Federation folk, beaming all but Kirk aboard his nearly crewless ship. Then, just like in the old tv shows, he and Kirk duke it out. Christopher Lloyd goes over a cliff edge and flash-fries with a satisfying FOOMP in a convenient lava flow. Kirk fools the last Klingon aboard the ship and gets beamed up. Our heroes take over the ship and escape just as the entire planet blows to smithereens (another nicely done effect). Whew. Kirk et alii warp to Vulcan. "Remember" we have (1) a tabula rasa Vulcan male clone of Spock, aged just right, and (2) a core dump of Spock's katra in McCoy's head. In another one of those Vulcan ceremonies consisting of Dame Judith Anderson ("Amok Time" - she's still alive), women in diaphronous gowns, and much hexagonal gong banging, Spock gets re-booted. For some reason, the process takes all night, probably because the "tape" already had some files on it and they had to search for and load only the Spock data. So Spock's back (you can't keep a good, half-breed down). But at what cost? Kirk's only son David has died, and the Enterprise has along with the Genesis planet rejoined the primordial interstellar dust. If I were the Federation, I sure would think twice about Admiral Kirk getting another commission. But then again his past misdeeds and inability to follow regulations and orders have never harmed him before. Besides, the Enterprise was scheduled to "be hauled away AS garbage." The only problems I have with the story are few. If the Genesis Effect doesn't work, how come it sure seemed to in "The Wrath of Khan"? Why didn't the Genesis-generated star blow up, too? Were the sfx for a (super-) nova too expensive? If the Spock clone's existence depended on the Genesis Effect's use of instable "proto-matter", why didn't he continue to deteriorate? This "tied-to-the planet" stuff is nonsense. Lastly, if it took only a second for Spock to dump his katra to McCoy, how come it took all night to re-boot him? Future possibilities include a "romantic" involvment for Spock and Saavik (Star Trek IV - The Search for Contraceptives), Kirk and his buddies hung to dry by the Federation for random behavior, Kirk finding more children (what about the queen with whom he made it in "In a Wink of an Eye"?), or perhaps some more harping on the "getting old" theme. "Star Trek III" cost four bucks at the Pacific Cinerama Dome in Hollywood. It's worth the bucks. I found it much more consistently entertaining than "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom": more believable, better paced, a better yarn all around. Some of the dialog is a bit hackneyed and tv-ish, but that's okay. There is a lot of comic (cosmic) relief. We also learn another reason why the Klingoni are so bad tempered: they can't get toupees to fit over their bumpy foreheads. Go. Enjoy. Buy lots of popcorn. :kg ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 6-Jun SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #111 *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Jun 84 1152-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #111 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 6 Jun 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 111 Today's Topics: Books - Varley & Vernor Vinge & SF vs Mainstream Literature, Television - V: The Final Battle (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Date: 4 Jun 84 11:20:44 EDT Subject: Demon plug (spoilerless) The Titan series is complete. DEMON is on the stands, a 7 buck trade paperback. My recommendation is: Read the entire series back to back. But don't dare miss it. The gist of the series is the discovery of a wheel-shaped space habitat in orbit around Saturn. It's about 1300 klicks in diameter and looks old and beat-up. The habitat turns out to be a living thing, highly intelligent, and very old. It's called Gaea. It was evidently bioengineered by a long-vanished race of creatures and then abandoned. It can itself do a fair amount of bioengineering, including the modification of human beings and the creation of servant creatures of almost any description. (At one point, while building a highway within the habitat, Gaea creates a dinosaur-shaped thingie which eats trees and rocks and shits asphalt. Things like that.) An Earth ship is captured by Gaea and the fun begins. These books are diabolically clever, very smoothly written, and occasionally infuriating. Varley dislikes men; all his weaklings and psychopaths are men, and all his heroes and Noble Souls are women. This would be all right if he could make a good case for it, but to me it sounds forced, as though he were consciously "making up" for abortions like Gor where women are furniture. There is a lot of sex in these books, a lot of lesbians, and a lot of lesbian sex. Again, much of that sounds forced. I often wished I knew a lesbian so I could ask her if Varley knows what he's talking about. As the heterosexual scenes are rather dumb, I suspect he's making it all up out of whole cloth. The characterization is generally unconvincing. But the plot...the action...the IDEAS, good lord, taken on those terms this series glows in the dark. It is easily the finest "constructed world" story I have ever read, and such stories are special favorites of mine. (RAMA, Riverworld, Ringworld, etc.) To say more might spoil any of several hundred surprises these books contain. Once more of you have read the whole thing we might discuss a few more specific points. Of course, if you have any spoiler commentary, you can always send it to me directly. Read 'em all. --Jeff Duntemann Duntemann.wbst@xerox.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 84 15:27 PDT From: Tom Perrine Subject: Vernor Vinge Bibliography Over the last few issues, several people have been looking for Vernor Vinge stories. So here is a complete list of *everything* he has published, thanks to VV. [I have omitted Non-Fiction, Translations and non-USA releases of SF -tom] ==Stories== 1. "Apartness" - in "New Worlds SF" June 1965 "World's Best SF 1966" (Ace) 2. "Bookworm, Run!" - in "Analog" March 1966 - "Analog 6" (Pocket Books) 3. "The Accomplice" - in "IF" April 1967 4. "Conquest by Default"- in "Analog" May 1968 "Analog's War and Peace", Anthology #6, Summer 1983 5. "Grimm's Story" - in "Orbit 4", Damon Knight, ed,1968 (Berkeley Books) (This is approximately the first half of the novel, "Grimm's World." 6. "Bomb Scare" - in "Analog", November 1970 "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow" Heintz, ed (Holt, Rinehart Winston) 7. "The Science Fair" - in "Orbit 9", Damon Knight, ed, 1971 (Berkely Books) 8. "Just Peace" - in "Analog" Dec 1971 (Co-authored with William Rupp) 9. "Long Shot" - in "Analog" Aug 1972 "1973 Annual World's Best SF", Wollheim, ed (DAW books) "Best SF of the Year", 2nd annual, Lester Del Ray, ed (Dutton, Ace) "Machines that Think: The Best Science-Fiction Stories about Robots and Computers", Asimov, Warrick and Greenberg, editors (Holt Rinehart Winston) 1983 10. "Original Sin" - in "Analog" Dec 1972 11. "The Whirligig of Time"- in "Stellar 1", 1974, Judy Lynn del Rey, ed (Ballantine) 12. "The Peddler's Apprentice" - in "Analog", Aug 1975 "The 1976 World's Best SF", Wollheim, ed (DAW) "Best SF Stories of the Year", 5th Annual, Lester del Rey, ed (Dutton) (Co-authoried with Joan D. Vinge) 13. "True Names" - in Dell Binary Star Number 5, Feb 1982 TO APPEAR in Oct 1984 from Bluejay Books 14. "Gemstone" - in "Analog" Oct 1983 "The Year's Best Sceince-Fiction, First Annual Collection", edited by Gardner Dozois, Bluejay Books ==Novels== 1. "The Witling" - DAW Books 1976 2. "Grimm's World" - Berkeley Books 1969 3. "Peace War" - Serialized in "Analog" May..August 1984 TO APPEAR in hardback 3rd quarter 1984 from Bluejay Books Tom Perrine {tom@LOGICON.ARPA} ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 4 Jun 1984 13:09:39-PDT From: lewis%spider.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Suford Lewis) Subject: SF conquers the "mainstream" Peter Reiher's points are well taken. He certainly keeps the discussion above the level of top-of-the-head natter. I have actually had to think before responding. While I have been condensing my thoughts to reasonable length, Duntemann has made a few of them. That has helped. I am only talking about NOVELS. Not literature. Not the general class into which narrative and poetry both fit. Science Fiction as we usually think of it, is narrative. (I know there are SF poems. There is even an SF Poetry Ass'n. SF poetry is beyond the scope of this discussion!) I have sloppily included in "realism" the notion that everyday, non-heroic, non-archetypal characters and actions are a suitable subject for art. This notion came in about the same time as the novel got popular. What probably happened is that the printing technology and the ability of a significant portion of the population to read made what was previously casual, entertaining tale-spinning into a noticeable publishing business. As soon as it became BOOKS this practice could be studied (or at least noticed by scholars and discussed by critics). Immediately the debate arose as to whether this stuff was "art". All kinds of classical (read: inherited from Roman and Greek) categories and analyses were brought to bear. Of course, when some really good novels came along, the scholarly concensus gradually decided that novels could be "art". Part of the argument against novels being art was that their subjects were neither elevating nor elevated. Art was supposed to express TRUTH. Novels were mostly devoid of much meaning at all. It was also noticeable that injection of "meaning" tended to make a novel worse AS A NOVEL, however much better it might be supposed to improve it as a work of art. EXCEPT. Except for the "really good" ones which were BOTH good as stories and good for their ideas. But what WAS it that made it good AS A NOVEL? What is a good story? Tom Jones is a good story. The Exorcist is a good story. Personally, I don't think either are much else, but this makes them useful for describing a good story. A good story is good at pushing your buttons, building suspense, sucking you into the events, carrying you along on the ride, manipulating your feelings. There is lots of junk on the Best-Seller list that is "merely" good story. Personally, I don't like being manipulated for no reason, nor will I continue to suspend my disbelief if things get unreasonable just for the convenience of the plot. Most novels are not "art". On the other hand, I enjoy my "art" in novel form. Contemporary mainstream novels, in general, strike me as silly. They do not speak to anybody's needs to understand anything. They are button-pushers. At least in Hotel and Airport you could find out a bit about how hotels and airports work. I think that to be really satisfying, the tension-release cycle of the plot must have some element of problem-solution. The resolution of the plot must involve not only the answer to the question "what happened", but "why". That is why I bring the older narrative forms in. They were always heavy on why. They usually had several parallel versions of the same problem running for the different characters so the audience could see how "proper action" had good results and "improper action" led to less good results. Bringing in fantastic elements to personify qualities and ideas also helped express the "why". SF is usually also big on the "why". Reiher says: It could also be argued that the reason that fantastic elements play less part in modern literature is due to the fact that many old beliefs have been demonstrated to be untrue, by science, and that much of what we today call fantasy was viewed as plain truth when written. Certainly science invalidated a lot of fantasy elements for literary allusion but Christianity had already done that hundreds of years before. It would be very difficult to prove whether the deities invoked in narrative dating from more than 1000 years ago were meant as allusions to qualities such as beauty, wisdom, bravery, tenacity and loyalty or whether they were really believed in as actual gods. Virgil certainly didn't believe in any of the gods he wrote about in the Aeneid. He has them squabbling and plotting just like his human characters and just like they behave in the Odyssey and Iliad - possibly because he was consciously copying the style, possibly because it was a useful way to portray the rivalry that grew up between Rome and Carthage. The thing that is worth noting is that these fantastical elements were USEFUL to explain the events of the story, a commentary on their significance. NOW FINALLY, why do I think SF will engulf the mainstream? Because story telling needs the devices of SF to tell meaningful stories and because we need meaningful stories today. The burgeoning popularity of the fantastical is an attempt to find meaning in events which are confusing at best. SF offers new, richer ways of telling stories that allow the complexities of modern culture to be clarified without being over-simplified. It was SF that evolved the techniques that allow an author to describe the scene, a character's mood, the culture and the planet all in the same paragraph. This technique is needed to describe other cultures right here and now. Before Sf came along, historical fiction was hopelessly anachronistic in the attitudes it projected on its characters. Most contemporary authors still do a pretty bad job of describing other cultures, but the tools are now available. I know enough Japanese history and culture to see that the events of Clavell's Shogun are considerably compressed and simplified, BUT just to tell that much required all the multiplexing techniques of SF. I kept thinking it read like an SF novel. Then I realized that he had to tell us about the people, their relationships, their attitudes, their culture, everything. Of course it read just like a first-contact SF story! (I am NOT claiming that SHOGUN is great literature, merely advancing it as an example of one way SF is already influencing the mainstream. The Source is another example.) Of course, it is not just the techniques of SF that make it powerful, it is the range of new settings and characters that make it able to tell any story and explore human action and relationships in new ways. And there is the revitalizing influence of something SF has that mainstream fiction needs: Sense of Wonder A lot of mainstream fiction is not only a meaningless string of button-pushing events, but it implies that there is no meaning to our actions, that good and evil are impossible to distinguish. This nihilism is what a lot of the fantastical impulse counters. The desire for meaningful story-telling is at the root of the popularity of Star Trek, Star Wars, Dr. Who, etc. The tenuous thread between these simplistic stories (simplistic to us, SF readers) and the trappings of modern technology imply that there might be some useful distinction between good and evil after all. SF lets the story simplify life but at the same time, preserve the part of the complexity that the author wants to talk about. That is what alien cultures and planets are good for. SF has developed a set of stock characters that help too: the idealistic scientist, the evil scientist, the blind bureaucrat, the naive outsider (a must, we have to have someone to explain to or to learn and think about things), the misunderstood monster, the good-looking bad guys, the evil-looking good guys. Clearly you want a deeper characterization than that, but the stereotypes are useful to express ideas and help the readers get their bearings as the story starts. So, it seems obvious to me that mainstream fiction is increasingly unable to talk about life and SF is right here, ready to hand with all the necessary tools. Popular culture increasingly embraces SF devices (at their most primitive but you have to start somewhere). Is this escapism? What is wrong with escaping from nihilism into sense of wonder? As Tolkien once said, "Who is worried about escape, anyway? Jailers." - Suford P. S. - As for pointing out the examples of SF that can be classed as great art... 1984 and Brave New World are generally recognized as at least "important". I think 50 years has to pass before the difference between great art and ephemerally relevant becomes clear. How about suggesting some current "mainstream" works that you would compare them with? Remember, narrative works only: Pride and Prejudice is OK; Ulysses - which I claim is really a poem in spite of being a long work of prose - is not. ------------------------------ Date: 4-Jun-84 08:46:30-EDT From: decvax!ncoast!bsafw@Berkeley (Brandon Allbery,524-1416) From: glenn (Glen Norris) Subject: Comments on ARPANET board "sf-lovers-temp", message #18 >Lost in Space was adventure/comedy n ... Obviously V was meant to >be taken seriously. Yes, but it wasn't meant to be taken by us! The decadence of television! The publius public! V was a comedy for me. Those I know who saw it and thought it was good also watch Pac-man on Saturdays and He-man on the other days. The (and I hesitate to confuse a relationship) networks can put this stuff on the air because it has lasers and ugly aliens in it (LIZARD people! Come ON!). The public loves it and I'm ashamed for them. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jun 84 13:46:44-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!grw @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Nonsense in V (for Vader) >>>>> Vader didn't off the Emperor, though. >>>> Oh, yeah? Don't you remember the end of Return of the Jedi >>>> when Vader threw the Emperor down that pit? >>>> Yeah, but that wasn't Vader, it was Anakin Skywalker >>>(from a certain point of view). :-) >> Also, Diane didn't off the "emperor", she offed John. >> The emperor was back on the homeworld. >But before that she shot John's superior (and the most superior one >on the ship), the character played by Sarah Douglas. But that's still not the emperor. A better equivalent would be Gov. Tarkin. -Glenn ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 6-Jun SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #112 *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Jun 84 1246-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #112 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 6 Jun 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 112 Today's Topics: Films - Streets of Fire & Does anybody remember these ? (3 msgs), Television - Tv scan rate and flicker & Dr. Who (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - SF Cons List & Complaints & Computer Crime & Time Travel Riches ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 4 Jun 84 14:23:16 PDT (Monday) From: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: summer sf/fantasy films Cc: reiher@UCLA-CS.ARPA Re: Streets of Fire I'm glad to see that "Streets of Fire" is being recognized as "fantasy." I just saw it this weekend, and I was impressed with the classic (to the point of being formula) fantasy plot: *** SLIGHT SPOILER WARNING *** Beautiful Princess is kidnapped by Evil Warrior. Gallant Knight is summoned to rescue Princess. Knight gathers Companions about him (for comedy relief if nothing else) and they set off on a Quest to rescue the Princess. Knight and Companions suffer hardships until, at last, Good confronts Evil for the climax. *** END SPOILER *** Who says that "fantasy" must be festooned with unicorns, fire-breathing dragons, and mail-clad meat-heads? Instead of chariots, why not Studebakers? Instead of magic swords, shotguns? The creators should be commended for believing that a fantasy story can be successfully set in a decadent urban environment; in a culture not unlike New York of the fifties. The one or two anachronisms (big screen color tv in one of the night-clubs) do not distract, but rather help remind the viewer that this isn't quite Reality (or "realistic", in a "mainstream" film sense.) I think even Tolkien would have been satisfied. Perry ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jun 84 20:16:28-PDT (Sun) From: ihnp4!pegasus!naiman @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Does anybody remember these ? I just recently was remembering a movie about some dolphin/aliens (that were being persecuted ?). All I remember is scientists trying to figure out their language and at the end of the movie they destroy this big dam/bridge. As you can see, I really don't remember it that well. It may have been an Outer Limits. Speaking of Outer Limits, does anybody remember the one where some Earth people land on some planet with acid rain. If you get caught in the rain, something funny happens to your eyes so that you can't stand light and you can't stand all dark. I don't remember this one too well either. How about this one ? Some alien lands in Washington with a robot who guards the ship. I seem to recall this was one of the first science fiction movies with any class. All I remember with this one is that the alien tries to get back to his ship at the end of the movie and some human helps him, I think. As you can see I did a lot of reminiscing recently. If anybody remembers anything more about those movies than I've mentioned, I'd appreciate hearing it. ==> Ephrayim J. Naiman @ AT&T Information Systems Laboratories (201) 576-6259 Paths: [ihnp4, allegra, ...]!pegasus!naiman ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jun 84 5:50:07-PDT (Mon) From: ihnp4!ihuxb!alle @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Does anybody remember these ? > I just recently was remembering a movie about some dolphin/aliens > (that were being persecuted ?). All I remember is scientists > trying to figure out their language and at the end of the movie > they destroy this big dam/bridge. Maybe it was "The Day of the Dolphin" with George C. Scott... > How about this one ? Some alien lands in Washington with a robot > who guards the ship. I seem to recall this was one of the first > science fiction movies with any class. All I remember with this > one is that the alien tries to get back to his ship at the end of > the movie and some human helps him, I think. This was "The Day the Earth Stood Still" with Michael Rennie. The Robot's name was Klaatu. You are correct - this movie was one of the first and still one of the best good science fiction movies. --> Allen <-- ihnp4!ihuxb!alle ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jun 84 10:50:24-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!whuxle!mag @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Does anybody remember these ? The robot's name was Gort, not Klaatu. He was given an instruction: "Gort, klaatu berada nikto" which was given by Michael Rennie (the alien) to some human to relay to him, which prevented the end of the world, or something. M.A. Gray, BTL WH. [Moderator's Note: Thanks also to the following people who contributed similar information: Bob Fishell (ihnp4!ihu1g!fish) M. Kenig (hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!whuxle!spuxll!abnjh!cbspt002@ Ucb-Vax) ] ------------------------------ Date: Tue 5 Jun 84 03:22:19-PDT From: Bob Larson Subject: Re: Tv scan rate and flicker The easiest place to detect flicker is watching wagon wheels turning. Besides the noticeable flicker, they often appear to turn backwards. (Most car wheels do not have high contrast spokes.) Yes, the 60 scans per second, 30 frames per second rate used on TV was chosen for several reasons. 1) A multiple/submultiple of the power line frequency was chosen because most interference is synchronous to the power line. The eye can detect a small spot moving at a constant rate much easier than one staying still. 2) The phospher used in TV's is not perfect. It lights up brightly then fades. If it stayed at a constant illumination for 1/30 second and then completely went black, a 30 scan per second rate would have been chosen. As it is, a 60 scan per second was chosen to get near uniform perceptible picture brightness over the entire screen. Higher persistence phosphers will cause noticeable image retention. 3) Interlace was chosen to reduce bandwidth requirements. Moving images will be lower resolution than a pure 60 scan per second system, but steady images will have the same resolution as a pure 30 frame per second system with the same bandwidth. Increased bandwidth would cost more in cheap TV receivers, transmitters, and available channels. Current expensive TV receivers use extra circuitry to try and compensate for the reduced bandwidth (especially color) that costs more than a wider bandwidth circuit would. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jun 84 16:12:59-PDT (Sun) From: ihnp4!houxm!mhuxl!mhuxm!mhuxn!mhuxr!mhuxt!crose @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Dr. Who sources wanted I am looking for places in New York City where I can find anything related to `Doctor Who' such as bookstores and what have you. I will need street names as well as store names. Thank you. Crose ...mhuxt!crose ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jun 84 18:43:28-PDT (Mon) From: decvax!mcnc!ecsvax!dgary @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Dr. Who sources wanted Dial toll free (800) CALL-WHO. (And I'm not kidding!!) D Gary Grady Duke University Computation Center, Durham, NC 27706 (919) 684-4146 USENET: {decvax,ihnp4,akgua,etc.}!mcnc!ecsvax!dgary ------------------------------ Date: Tue 29 May 84 11:05:05-PDT From: Rich Zellich Subject: SF Cons list updated - hardcopy also available SRI-NIC file CONS.TXT has been updated and is available for FTP. SRI-NIC supports the net-standard "ANONYMOUS" Login within FTP, using any password. CONS.TXT is currently 1084 lines (or 51,188 characters). For those desiring a hardcopy of the list, a "pocket" version (4.25" x 11", 1/4-size print) is available for 50 cents at St. Louis in '88 bid parties, or 75 cents via mail from: St. Louis in '88 Worldcon Bid PO Box 1058 St. Louis, MO 63188 Enjoy, Rich ------------------------------ Date: 29-Jun-84 20:52 PDT From: William Daul SoftMark/McDonnell Douglas From: Subject: Re: Complaints I just read someone's complaint about "why complain about the boobtube treatment of SF, it isn't any worse than the treatment of other subjects." That got me to thinking (Congradulations!), there is ALOT of complaining going on (in my opinion). If it leads to readers writing letters to relevant people, then it seems worth it. Otherwise, it sure takes up alot of peoples time writing and reading it. How many of this readership have ever written a letter to the writers, studios, producers, etc., to complain about their work? I am very curious. I hope my guess is correct...then my mailbox will have plenty of room left. If readers have enough interesting comments, I will try to forward a synopsis of them. I will continue to read whatever is put in front of me, whether it makes things better or just gives my eyes exercise. I hope no one considers this a "flame", it isn't. --Bi<< ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Jun 84 00:26 EDT From: TMPLee@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: ABACUS Article on Computer Crime in Science Fact and Fiction To: Security-Forum@UTEXAS-20.ARPA [Prompted by the item I noticed in the SF-Lovers Digest I asked our library to send me a copy of the Abacus article entitled "Computer Crime: Science Fiction and Science Fact." I mildly recommend it. I was tempted to excerpt large portions of it, but will restrain myself and only quote a couple of paragraphs, along with the complete list of books and articles reviewed. By the way, the author of the article is named Kurt J. Schmucker, and the biographical note says he is a "mathematician and computer scientist with the Department of Defense in Washington, D.C." -- he is not listed in the NIC; does anyone know (of) him? The article is a fairly complete compendium of science fiction works dealing with computer crime, categorized by whether the computer is the object, environment, instrument, symbolic entity ("trust the computer"), or perpetrator of the crime. Quite a few of the works reviewed seem to have moderately serious and moderately competent ties to realistic computer security threats and vulnerabilities. In the spirit of the recent discussions in the Forum about viruses, let me start by excerpting Schmucker's comments about John Brunner's "The Shockwave Rider":] Brunner, John, "The Schockwave Rider," New York, Ballantine Books, 1975. This science fiction novel is set in a future U.S. society in which the all-pervasive computer is abused to a horrifying degree by the government and by a highly-principled and individualistic super-programmer. Computer security topics discussed in this novel include Trojan Horse programs, encryption, operating system security, network protection, and authorization and authentication levels and methods. ... the hero's virtuosity was based on his ability to construct worms electronic worms, that is. These worms were programs with a veritable life of their own, crawling through computers and computer networks to accomplish their assigned tasks, usually unnoticed by the computer personnel. His worms could break encryption schemes, alter databases, modify the network connections, etc., and then erase themselves. They could be purely destructive, as well, used to avenge or deter a hostile act, or to prevent detection of the hero's network connection. [Schmucker concludes by referencing the Shoch and Hupp CACM article on the Xerox Worm.] [The second excerpt is from Schmucker's descriptions of another virus program, "The Adolescence of P-1"] Ryan, Thomas J., "The Adolescence of P-1," New York, Collier Books, 1977. This novel is the story of a program which was given two goals: to obtain as much storage as possible on every system it broke into, and to avoid detection at all cost. "[from the book, I believe - TMPL] He would build a program that at first would only learn to acquire storage. His program would simply learn how best to penetrate the supervisors of computer systems over teleprocessing facilities. It would then acquire storage in systems, as much as could be taken without interrupting the operation of the host. It would learn how to detect the presence of a teleprocessing link to another system and how to go about getting to that other system..." Within 24 hours after it first branched from its home system, the program was resident on 114 different systems and had allocated itself 266,098K bytes of storage on those systems. [Following are the authors and titles of the other works reviewed in the article]: Baldwin, Fred. D. "Opening Move," Creative Computing, June 1979. Berlyn, Michael, "The Integrated Man," New York, Bantam, 1980. Carney, David, "Too Identified," Creative Computing, July 1980. Clarke, Arthur C. "2001: A Space Odyssy," 1968. Compton, D.G., "The Steel Crocodile," New York, Pocket Books, 1970. Crowe, Sam, "You Can't Think in Two Places at Once," Creative Computing, Sept.-Oct. 1978. Daley, Brian, "TRON,", New York, Ballantine Books, 1982. Gerrold, David, "When Harlie Was One," New York, Ballantine Books, 1972. Heinlein, Robert A., "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress," New York, Putnam, 1966. Hogan, James P., "The Genesis Machine," New York, Ballantine, 1978. Hogan, James P., "The Two Faces of Tomorrow," New York, Ballantine, 1979. Jones, D.F., "Colossus" et seq., New York, Berkley Pub. Corp., 1966,74,77. Koontz, Dean R., "Demon Seed," London, Transworld Pub. Ltd., 1977. Littell, Robert, "The Amateur," New York, Simon and Schuster, 1981. Matthews, Clyde, "The Ides of March Conspiracy," New York, Arbor House, 1979. Niesewand, Peter, "Fallback," New York, William Morrow & Co., 1982. Perry, Roland, "Program for a Puppet," New York, Crown Pubs., 1979. Saberhagen, Fred, "Berseker," New York, Ace Books, 1967. Shedly, Ethan I., "The Medusa Conspiracy," New York, Viking Press, 1980. Vitale, Michael R., "Computer Control," Creative Computing, Nov-Dec 1977. Williamson, S.A., "The Link," Creative Computing, Oct 1979. Yourdon, Edward N., "Silent Witness: A Novel of Computer Crime," New York, Yourdon Press, 1982 [Two other observations -- Schmucker starts by outlining what I believe the popular press calls the salami scam -- catching the round-off error in a financial institution's interest-paying program and funnelling to your account. He observes that this idea has occurred repeatedly, but yet he has NEVER seen any authenticated report of it actually having been perpetrated -- does anyone out there know of a documented case? Second observation -- The novel "Fallback" deals with the U.S. having penetrated the Soviet's missle control computers and re-targeting them against the the Soviet Union itself. In his review (parallel between fiction and reality) Schmucker quotes from Roger Schell's Air University Review article (the paragraph starting "For example, it has been proposed that the Air Force dynamically retarget its strategic .... " and ending with "... However, computers are at the heart of this capability: if they were penetrated, an enemy could retarget ...."] ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 84 09:26:20 EDT From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst Subject: Time travel riches - 1787 money Regarding bopping back to 1787, returning with a handful of currency, and selling it to collectors: I'm surprised you didn't think of this flaw; you mentioned it yourself: it's in mint condition! After ~200 years? Who would believe you didn't print/mint it yourself last week? A carbon-14 test (on currency, at least; I don't know what you'd do for coins) wouldn't help, either. You'd have to bury it someplace safe for 200 years (!) or arrange to have it "willed" to you in the present by someone in 1787 (and don't ask me how to do *that*!). Try doing the lottery bit once, then take your winnings & set of Wall Street Journals and invest in commodities (sugar, precious/strategic metals) a couple of months before they take massive jumps in price. You won't attract as much attention as you would with the regular stock market (after all, how many of us had heard of Nelson Bunker Hunt before he was caught driving up silver prices?). Chris ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 6-Jun SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #113 *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Jun 84 1304-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #113 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 6 Jun 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 113 Today's Topics: ******SPECIAL STAR TREK ISSUE****** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 Aug 83 20:52:47 EDT From: Jaffe@RUTGERS Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!! The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the movie "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock". People who have not yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following messages. Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jun 84 11:41:29-PDT (Sat) From: decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK (Heavy duty SPOILER!) In one word: Naaahhhhhh!!! Well, hey, I *did* enjoy the film, but like RETURN OF THE JEDI and INDIANA JONES & THE TEMPLE OF DOOM, I felt I got much less than I hoped for or expected. First of all, I wasn't all that impressed with the special effects. ILM's standards are higher than this. The Space Dock was magnificent, as were assorted other scenes, but most of the ship movements were awkward and ended up looking like the models that they were. I will give kudos for the destruction of the *Enter- prise*, though. Well done, I say, well done. I'm sorry to see her go, but she at least went out in a (literal) blaze of glory! Secondly, I thought Nimoy was only OK as director; he just doesn't have the experience is this job yet, though he certainly shows promise. Some of the awkward moments, though, could also be put down to a weak script. I suspect that with THE WRATH OF KHAN, it was Jack Sowards who contributed much of the dialogue, and that Harve Bennett couldn't hold the fort by himself for this one. At least we were spared one thing: I was really afraid that when Spock went through pon farr, that Saavik was going to end up balling the kid to help him through it. She may have actually done so (I'll be interested to see how this is handled in the novelization), but at least it wasn't made criminally obvious that this was the case. That would have been too much of an inverted Oedipal situation for me to deal with. I'll have to give credit, though, for the characterizations of the Klingons. They say that one can better understand a foreigner's way of looking at things by studying his language. I felt that the clipped, direct, no-beating-around-the-bush, to the point dialogue of the Klingons spoke volumes about their way of thinking ("Speak!" "Success" "Opponent!") Thirdly, though I *loved* the "character humor" (ie playful character interactions --- such as Scotty's reply, "It'll take 8 weeks to refit her, but we don't have 8 weeks, so I'll do it in 2."), there were some scenes with the Klingons, and especially with Captain "Howard Hunter" Styles that were played too much for laughs. I was *really* disgusted with the *Excelsior* going klunkety klunkety klunk and stopping dead in space; it was just too silly. And last, but not least, I was *outraged* by Spock's resurrection! Hey, I like Spock as much as the next guy, And I must confess that the way they pulled it off was consistent and believable (with the standard disbelief suspenders on, of course), but dead is dead! If they haven't got the guts to keep him dead, they shouldn't have killed him in the first place. I applauded their major step for- ward in realism by killing off a major character, but now they've just taken a step backward and made Spock's ultimate sacrifice in TWOK totally meaningless. Seriously! Isn't the lesson of Spock's sacrifice lost when -- like the scene in AIRPLANE II where the guard shoots the little boy's dog -- all they end up doing is saying, "Hah, hah! Only kidding. No harm done." All that is accomplished is that Spock fans have been through an emotional wringer that serves no purpose. I confess to having been all choked up during the funeral scene in TWOK (and just about every time I've seen it, too), and because now we know he's not really dead, I feel like I'm the victim of a sadist who's tortured me for the fun of it. In a similar vein, I feel that the point of the current film is lost, too. Kirk and the others are in deep shit with Star Fleet, risking their careers (not to mention their lives) to help their friend. But how much you want to bet that as in "Amok Time", Sarek and T'Pau (or whoever is Lord High Mucky Muck of Vulcan these days) vouches for them and gets all charges against them dropped. Again, I feel that paying the piper doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot when you end up getting a refund. Sigh. I suppose it seems strange that I could still have enjoyed the film after blasting it so much, but hell, it *was* well done for the most part, if one is willing to play along with the game. I just didn't like them changing the rules. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jun 84 01:04:07 PDT (Sun) From: utcsrgv!mcgill-vision!mouse Subject: ST III and collections of stories Just finished seeing ST III. My impression is that it's worse than TWOK (not by much) and a lot better than STTMP (that wouldn't be difficult...). I expect to see it again. I recommend it. der Mouse ihnp4!uw-beaver!utcsrgv!mcgill-vision!mouse ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Jun 84 18:46 EDT From: Aspnes@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Star Trek III (partial spoiler) Saw ST3 last night. It was not completely disgusting, but it was getting pretty close. Big gripes: 1. The Klingons, once a proud starfaring race of great intellect and nobility (plus a few minor personality problems) have been turned into juvenile dimwits whose qualifications for empire are overshadowed by their qualifications for a typical inner-city street gang. 2. Much of the movie was strongly influenced by Star Wars. I'm sure most people who see it will readily recognize Jabba's pet and the Bar Scene from SW1. Other connections are less direct, and may be coincidence. 3. At long last, gratuitous Vulcan sex comes to Star Trek. Merely one of many flaws in the distinctly non-Vulcan Saavik. Bring back the original! 4. You can't fly a Federation Heavy Cruiser with five crewmen. Despite this, it was fun watching Kirk play pirate captain, and the transformation of Star Fleet Command from an imperial military force to a hidebound beaurocracy gave a nice sense of the difference in time from the TV series. And it was still better than Star Trek One -Jim ------------------------------ Date: Tue 5 Jun 84 03:07:54-EDT From: Michael Rubin Subject: Star Trek III -- "In Search Of... Spock" ST3 felt very short, more like an episode than a whole movie. It should have been called "Star Trek 2A", since it starts immediately after the end of ST2 and serves mostly to finish all the open plot lines. A decent, *small* film. PRAISE: Great acting by DeForrest Kelly (McCoy), especially in the bar scene. He definitely steals the show. Scotty, Sulu and Uhura aren't bad either, though their parts are small; they and the Klingon captain get good one-liners. Most of the SFX are well done, with the exception of the hand phasers. Ships blow up real nice. Klingon disruptor pistols are also cute - reminiscent of the effect Japanimation fans call "Wave Motion Sickness". BLAME: Saavik's part is written even worse than in the last movie; most of the few things she gets to do are out of character. Kirstie Alley wanted too much money, so they put in a new actress (Robin somebody-or-other) who doesn't look Vulcan and can't act. Nimoy was the director, and he certainly knows how Vulcans should be played - why did he tolerate this?! I wish the wonderful Saavik character from Vonda McIntyre's novelization of ST2 would make it into the films.... The Vulcan religious ceremonies are *silly*, especially the Voluptuous Vulcan Vestal Virgins in the filmy nighties, and the Chinaman with the gong. Sarek gets emotional. Even worse, he admits in public to a Vulcan high priestess that he is getting emotional. This is equivalent to getting up at a Jerry Falwell revival and saying you're a gay Communist. All the CRT's on the bridge look like they are attached to Atari 800's (40 columns or less of 5x7 uppercase letters). At least they don't print at 300 baud and bleep after each character. The Klingons' dog, a Ray Harryhausen-esque monster, should have either been used or not been used. It seems to have just been there for decoration. The premise is weak; it only works because of magic, with a little bit of amazing coincidence and deus-ex-machina thrown in. Then again, at least half the episodes were like that too. Okay, I knew the Klingons had the Romulan cloaking device, but since when are they using Romulan bird-of-prey ships as well? With only 12 crewmen? Why does Saavik stay in the cave and let David scout around, other than to leave her alone with "Spock" for the love scene? She is a trained military officer, he is a (wimpier than average) civilian, and they know enemy troops may be around. I've also been asked why she just stands there doing nothing while David is fistfighting the Klingon guard, but this may be to protect "Spock" from getting shot at. And I don't mind losing the Space Preppie. When the Enterprise blows up, about half of it seems to make it out of the explosion (awful lousy self-destruct). It then reenters the atmosphere of the Genesis planet, which of course is still evolving in hiccups. Will the Enterprise now be reborn, get Nomad/V'ger syndrome, and go off to find Scotty? Kirk has *still* not caught hell for what he did in ST2, namely willfully disobeying a prime Star Fleet regulation and thereby getting the Enterprise shot up. [Theory: Shatner's about as good an actor as Ron Reagan, maybe he has the Reagan Teflon Factor too!] Now he's conspired to steal a starship and sabotage another, landed on a thoroughly-off-limits planet, perhaps started a war with the Klingons, and told Star Fleet to take a flying \\\\ at a black hole. Even Sarek and T'Pau shouldn't be able to get him out of this one.... Especially with no ship, what are our heroes going to do next, head off to Orion and become pirates? --Mike Rubin ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jun 84 18:51:33-PDT (Sun) From: decvax!dartvax!merchant @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK (Heavy duty SPOILER!) Well, someone said that they wanted to hear a few other comments, so what the hell. I'll put in my two cents worth... I rather enjoyed the movie. I liked how they managed to bring him back. Very clever, indeed. I would have been thoroughly disgusted if they landed on the planet to find Spock going "Hey, Jim, what took you so long?" I only have one major complaint. How in the world did the Genesis effect get into the sealed torpedo? Possibly it's just ignorance on my part, but I don't believe the Genesis effect was caused by any foofy form of radiation or anything like that, and the thing was sealed shut. For that matter, how in the world did the kid get out? Most coffins that seal shut don't have any way to get out from the inside. The theory is, if he's dead, he ain't going to be going anywhere. The torpedo HAD to be sealed shut. If it wasn't, how did it withstand re-entry? Of course, the argument can be shot down by saying the torpedo was damaged on re-entry or something like that. I don't think my complaint is a major shortcoming...I just wished they'd explained it better. Minor complaints: 1. Some scenes smacked a bit too much of Star Wars. The bar, in particular, and the scene where they break McCoy out, in general. The Klingon Commander's pet reminded a bit too much of some of the beasties that inhabitted Boba-Fett's place. 2. Doesn't it seem like Kirk got away a bit too easy? I mean, come on! A Starship does have alot of rather interesting things in it's memory banks. Conceivably, information on the Genesis device. The fact that Star Fleet let them, basically, walk away with the Enterprise is a bit questionable. 3. The comment I hear over and over again: How did Kirk notice the weirdness of space and the computer didn't. This one I give a half-point. Basically, nobody asked the computer "Hey, computer, analyze what looks like a weirdness in space for me." Maybe, Maybe... 4. Someone has to tell ILM (Industrial Light & Magic...the people who do most of the effects work) to mellow out. The Transporter is far too foofy for my taste. There is a little twinkle after they materialize which reminds me of the pixie dust from Peter Pan. (McCoy's latest: "I'm a doctor, not tinkerbell!") 5. Why did the Klingon Ship have both a transporter and a way to land? I don't remember seeing the Klingon Transporter Room, so maybe there was a logical reason (like the transporter room was too small) but it seems like a waste to me. 6. Similar to the Enterprise concept: Why didn't the Federation notice this Klingon Battle Cruiser flying around. Also, if the Federation has bases and things like that on Vulcan (Vulcan is supposed to be a pretty mainstay part of the Federation), when Kirk zoomed up to Vulcan and went to land, I would think that the Federation would have kicked Jim's ass, and I don't care how much clout Sarek might have. Look at it from their point of view. Jim steals the Enterprise. One of the Federation's starships is missing. Jim returns in a Klingon Battle Cruiser. It doesn't take Einstein to figure out that Jim sold out to the Klingons. He's going to take a few potshots at the Federation before he goes home to his new buddies. I'd say Jim should be space dust by now. Of course, it's easy to find fault. Let's look at some good things: 1. Christopher Lloyd, who played the Klingon Commander, was wonderful. He played it mean and nasty, but not viciously so. He was doing what he had been trained to do. He didn't have a fiendish laugh or anything. He was quietly nasty. Bravo! 2. The fight between Kirk and the Klingon Commander was great. Jim got nailed a couple of times. I don't expect a 50 year old man to fight like a twenty year old man. 3. Spock, as I said above, was handled very well. I think they might have rushed it a bit at the end. Spock seemed a little unsure at first, but caught on fast after he remembered Jim's name. The eyebrow at the end was great, though I haven't quite figured out what might have caused it. Fascinating. 4. The execution of the stealing of the Enterprise was great fun. The integrating of each of our favourite members was fun. Scotty's quote will become the concept for computer hackers everywhere. I just wish I could remember it. 5. Jim reacted well to the death of his son. A few moments of anger and then back to business. Just a caustic remark every now and then. All in all, a good movie. I think my complaints are kind of nitpicky. I will definitely go see it again. "Scotty! Save my ass!" Peter Merchant ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Jun 84 20:29:30 EDT From: Earl Weaver (VLD/ATB) Subject: ST III 1. Good ole Rev Jim... 2. I liked the first Saavik best. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 8-Jun SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #114 *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Jun 84 1947-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #114 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 8 Jun 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 114 Today's Topics: Books - Varley & SF vs Mainstream (2 msgs), Films - Dune & The Last Starfighter, Television - Dr. Who & TV Flicker, Miscellaneous - Aliens in SF ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed 6 Jun 84 22:05:39-PDT From: Laurence R Brothers Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #111 I too most heartily recommend Demon as the best of the year so far. "I often wished I knew a centaur so I could find out if the sex scenes were realistic" ....well, maybe not. Laurence ------------------------------ Date: Thu 7 Jun 84 11:46:40-PDT From: CAIN@SRI-AI.ARPA Subject: SF/Mainstream/Beyond More on the SF/mainstream controversy, and a little kick ahead ... According to Jeff Duntemann: > Literature is the mapping of the human spirit > by the language of the culture. A few paragraphs later: > I accuse the mainstream of failing to accurately > reflect our twentieth century culture ... I maintain that if you define "literature" as a map of the human spirit via the language and then also say the literature of the day does not adequately reflect the culture ... well, you have succeeded in defeating your own definition. I do agree with the definition, but not with the observation. Literature must ALWAYS be measured according to the time it was written and not when it was read. The lag between creation and wide circulation can generate this apparent descrepancy between the feelings of the day and the literatary echo. Also, literature is a spectrum (as is the human spirit). You can find depression in any period (regardless of cultural levity) as easily as you can find hope even in bleak periods. I could read mainstream nonstop for weeks (were I so desparate) without venturing out of comfortable niches of romance and country gardens. As well could I drive myself to suicidal despair in a few days by another selection. My point is: choose. If it seems depressing (and you don't like depression), just move on. I will, however, rally to a point I haven't heard much made that television has gutted all forms of literature across the board. While playing to a basically child-like mentality, it has nevertheless absorbed so much attention from the public, that less flashy (and often more rewarding) forms of literature flounder. With television providing the role models for the next generation of literature, I don't hold too many great hopes for mainstream or SF going anywhere terribly interesting. On the subject of the future (a subject dear to all our hearts), let me take a wild guess about whether SF will gobble mainstream or vice versa. That guess? Simply that both forms as they exist today will be as pale as radio programs or BW television as soon as we get truly interactive literature together. Neither one will triumph. They will both be put on the shelf. This is not to say they will not be as interesting and/or powerful as ever -- just that the next evolutionary step (if you want to apply that dog-eared metaphor to this field) will supplant them both. I'm no prophet, but it seems to me that if we get together good computer graphics, interactive devices, and a few tremendously creative individuals, we may have some decent interactive novels/programs/arcade games. If we have a few Charles Dickens or Jane Austens who can deal with computers (and have not been spoiled by too much tv), we might see some major alterations in the way literature is perceived. Note: I do not opine that the new form will be "better." But I do not feel any evolutionary step ever taken has been "better", just different. If it has an appeal which will favor its survival (as has had tv), then less popular forms of literature just may get archived. ... ron cain cain@sri-ai P.S. For some reason, my letters to this column seem to have a 1 - 2 week latency (probably network bugs or something). Forgive me if some of my responses seem out of sequence. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jun 84 12:16:01 EDT From: Stephen Miklos Subject: Genres To: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA This is in response to Jeff Duntemann's crusade on behalf of sf. SF is not sui generis. It is a genre of literature. Occasionally an sf book will be so well-written that it appeals to readers (and critics) who generally are not willing to put up with sf. This happens with other genres as well, for example Raymond Chandler's detective novels or Graham Greene's spy books. Are these books no longer genre books, because they have been accepted by mainstream critics? It is hard to say. Perhaps it is a meaningless question. It seems to me that most of the popular sub-genres of fiction have one thing in common: adventure. There is the voyeuristic thrill of reading about people who do things you don't do. Solving murders, spying on the Russians, travelling in outer space, having epic love affairs, or handling huge amounts of money (usually while having epic love affairs). The difference between a genre novel and a "mainstream" or serious novel has to do with the quality of writing, but more to do with the quality of conceptualization, and with a shift in empahasis from the spying or detecting or space travel or what-have-you over to the relationships of real characters to each other and to a real world. The best sf (as well as the best fiction of other genres) that I know of has very little to do with the genre fetish, and a whole lot to do with the people in the book. There is nothing wrong with genre fiction, just as there is nothing wrong with rock and roll or hamburgers; but genre fiction is not generally in the same league with literary fiction. The best of rock and roll shows the same inventiveness and musical sophistication as the best art songs, and is therefore "as good as" the art songs, just as the best sf is "as good as" the best literary fiction. But there remains a core of "fans" who enjoy the mysteries, romances, sf tales, and so on mainly for the things that make them genre books, regardless of the "literary" value of the books. I happen to enjoy sf in this way, but I don't kid myself that any but a very few sf books have any literary value at all. The quality that Mr. Duntemann attributes to sf to set it apart from "mainstream" fiction, optimism, is available in all the other genre books. He just happens to be a fan of sf instead of mysteries, romances, or spy stories. I have a hard time swallowing his contention that it is not also the main theme of modern serious fiction. I just don't see all this despair that Mr. Duntemann is wailing about. If there is one thread that has persisted throughout literature it is the notion of the nobility of the human spirit and a sense of delight at the variety of human life. This has persisted past the Victorians. Who can ignore the thundering "yes" of Joyce's Ulysses or the sublime optimism of Alice Walker's "The Color Purple", to take an example from each end of the modern era. If Jeff's instructor thought that Camus was all about whether or not to commit suicide, then he should have had a more perceptive teacher. The man was talking about freedom--which includes the freedom to commit suicide--and committing yourself to something in spite of the fact that you are absolutely free. Though there is no meaning given to life from above, our choices make it meaningful. Despair? Think about the doctor in The Plague and then talk to me about despair. The work of any writer you can get me to agree is any good (and that includes most of the ones most critics think are good--I'm not trying to pick out an unrepresentative subset), in this century or any other, is primarily about the worth of human beings and not about despair, except when despair is shown as a bad option. A very abbreviated list would include, among authors active since WWII, John Gardner (not the spy-story guy, but "The Sunlight Dialogues" et al.), Thomas Pynchon, John Updike, I. B. Singer, Saul Bellow, John Kennedy Toole, Thornton Wilder, Walker Percy, Athol Fugard, and Graham Greene, to name only some of my favorites. This list includes some heavy- and some light-weights, but no pap. And no despair. Will sf take over "mainstream"? Indubitably, literature will be more concerned with technology as real people become more concerned with technology. When was the last time you read a modern novel in which a phone call or a car trip did not have an impact on the plot? This is not, however, what most of us would call sf. It is possible that the next big theme in serious literature is technology (or the next + n), but that literature will be different in quality from most of what we call sf. I could go on for days; in fact, I have. Ignore all of this if what Mr. Duntemann meant by "mainstream" is the best-seller list. It doesn't much matter whether all the best-sellers next year are sf--it won't have anything to do with literature. Btw--this is not an elitist attitude; "literary" fiction is just as much a genre as sf. Some like plot, some like style. +++>> stephen <<+++ ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 4 Jun 1984 10:06:35-PDT From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (The Stainless Steel Rat) Subject: Aliens, FTL, and the spice of Dune Herbert's having based Dune on the uniqueness of melange is quite reasonable. Given today's technology, which can disassemble substances down as far as desired, even unto their component atoms and beyond, why can't anyone duplicate Coca-Cola? Think they haven't tried? Don't count on it. The problem is in the manufacturing process - reverse engineering doesn't explain the subtleties of that - it's virtually impossible to take a piece of steel and analyse it to the extent that it can be duplicated even to the temper. And biologically produced substances are often the hardest to analyse!!! Cheers, Dick Binder (The Stainless Steel Rat) UUCP: {decvax|allegra|ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!dosadi!binder ARPA: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 84 12:54:05 PDT (Wednesday) From: Isdale.es@XEROX.ARPA Subject: The Last Starfighter release postponed After several VERY well recieved preview screenings, the folks at Universal decided that TLS deserved more hype than previously allotted. Therefore the release date has been pushed back to July 15, 1984. sigh. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Jun 84 23:23 EDT From: TMPLee@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Dr. Who Sources To: ihnp4!houxm!mhuxl!mhuxm!mhuxn!mhuxr!mhuxt!crose@UCB-VAX.ARPA If that 800 number doesn't get you what you want, we have a very large SF bookstore here in Minneapolis that carries a large collection of the Dr. Who books (4 or 5 eight foot shelves, if I remember right), and a good assortment of the other collectibles: puzzles, games, coin boxes (in the shape of a Tardis, of course) the various annuals, T-shirts, etc. The name of the store is Uncle Hugo's (natch) and they will send you a more-or-less complete catalogue of all they have and will mail order to anywhere in the world on a personal check. (I suspect their catalogue hasn't been updated in awhile, but the proprieter will I'm sure be glad to discuss with you at length what he has and if its not in stock either order it or wait until it comes in.) Don't have the phone number or address handy, but I'm sure you can get it from information. Ted Lee p.s. -- I hope there is a shorter form of your netaddress! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jun 84 17:03 PDT From: reynolds@RAND-UNIX.ARPA Subject: Tv scan rate and flicker Cc: Bob Larson Date: Tue 5 Jun 84 03:22:19-PDT From: Bob Larson Subject: Re: Tv scan rate and flicker The easiest place to detect flicker is watching wagon wheels turning. Besides the noticeable flicker, they often appear to turn backwards. (Most car wheels do not have high contrast spokes.) What you are describing is NOT flicker. It is usually refered to as "temporal aliasing" a varient on "spatial aliasing" (the "jaggies" of computer graphics fame). Thes are all related to errors introduced in various signal processing techniques due to "point sampling", the bagaboo of digital signal processing. In this sense even movies are "digital" (in the time domain) because of the discrete time samples that the individual frames represent. Personally I'm an old aliasing hater from way back. Some of you may have run across the "no jaggies" icon I was apparently the inventor of back in 1981. It's the international prohibition symbol (the red circle with a bar sinister) over a diagonal stair-step edge between black and white areas. Just as in the spatial domain aliasing CANNOT be fixed by going to higher resolutions -- temporal aliasing CANNOT be fixed by going to higher frame rates. This is a hot area of research in computer graphics and there are papers in last year's and (soon to be) this year's SIGGRAPH conference proceedings. 1) A multiple/submultiple of the power line frequency was chosen because most interference is synchronous to the power line. Surprisingly, this is no longer true. American color TV (NTSC) runs ever-so-slightly faster than 60 hertz. -c ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 4 Jun 1984 10:06:35-PDT From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (The Stainless Steel Rat) Subject: Aliens, FTL, and the spice of Dune Spock an alien? Pfui! Not even close. If species as closely related as humans and the great apes can't interbreed, then the chances of two species from different ecosystems that could do so are laughably small. The probability that one such could even eat food from the other's table is equally infinitesimal. The closest thing to an alien that Spock could be is a mule. And while I'm at it, I always wondered if the whole lot on board the Enterprise were colour blind or what? It'a fairly obvious that they never saw Spock's blood in its true hue, because copper-based blood (which his purportedly is) is blue, not green. Copper does appear in some green substances, eg malachite, but blood isn't one of them. (For the sceptics out there, copper-based blood is a real thing, right here on mother Terra, in the bodies of horseshoe crabs.) It all comes back to the suspension of disbelief. Cheers, Dick Binder (The Stainless Steel Rat) UUCP: {decvax|allegra|ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!dosadi!binder ARPA: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 8-Jun SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #115 *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Jun 84 2003-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #115 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 8 Jun 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 115 Today's Topics: ******SPECIAL STAR TREK ISSUE****** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 Aug 83 20:52:47 EDT From: Jaffe@RUTGERS Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!! The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the movie "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock". People who have not yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following messages. Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) ------------------------------ Date: Tue 5 Jun 84 10:54:32-EDT From: Gern Subject: How old is Enterprise? Just how old was the Starship Enterprise? Available data indicates Enterprise components assembled in San Francisco Navy Yard. Robert April, first Captain of the Enterprise, directed construction. His wife was first medical officer stationed on Enterprise and designed several of the medical equipment as the needs arose. Christopher Pike was second captain of the Enterprise. Spock served on Enterprise, under Pike, for 11 years, 4 months, and 5 days. James T. Kirk was third Captain of the ship on a 5 year mission. The Enterprise underwent a minor refit early in the mission (between Where No Man Has Gone Before, stardate 1312.4 and The Man trap, stardate 1513.1), probably due to the damage sustained in WNMHGB. The incident with Khan Noonian Singh took place stardate 3141.9 during the five year mission. The first movie takes place 3 years after the end of the five year mission, during which time the ship is completely redsigned and refitted. Captain William Decker oversees the refit, but Admiral Kirk relieves and replaces him before actual space duty. In ST II:TWoK, Captain Spock is in command of the ship, making him the fifth known captain of the Enterprise. Minor refit and new bridge station locations noted. Kirk meets Khan after 15 years from meeting during 5 year mission. ST:III takes place right after ST:II, I do not have stardate data from movies, will have to reference novelizations. This puts a minimum final age of the Starship Enterprise from birth at 32 years, not counting Captain April's mission time, or time between Captains. Assuming Kirk first ran into Khan during the 2nd year of the 5 year mission, the Enterprise was only 9 years old since redesign/major refit. Comments Please??? Cheers, Gern ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 84 12:38:10 EDT From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA Subject: STIII: The Search for Spock (SPOILER!!!!) Re a recent message regarding flames and smoke coming from the wrecked Enterprise in STIII--the Enterprise at that time was NOT in the vacuum of space, it was falling through the atmosphere of the Genesis planet, hence the legitimacy of atmospheric effects such as smoke! On the sillier side...if Spock and the little critters were regenerated on the Genesis planet, what does anyone give to the chances of seeing in STIV a "reborn" Enterprise manned by a "reborn" David? Live Long In Phosphorus! Frederick Paul Kiesche III ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 1984 1433-EDT From: Warren Sander Subject: Shades of 1984 (st III) It's amazing how the enterprise can film everything that is going on even during the most critical battle situations (that is when you would want to see everything isn't it?). Maybe 1984 is only 300 years away as it is in ST III? Warren sander (Sander at DEC-MARLBORO) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Jun 84 13:21:55 PDT From: Rich Wales Subject: ST III (how long is a star date?) In ST III, as Kirk and Sarek watch the computer's visual log of the confrontation between Spock and McCoy in the engine room, there is a numeric scale at the bottom of the screen ticking off star dates. I've only seen ST III once so far, but my fairly definite recollection is that: (1) Said numeric scale showed the star date to four decimal places. (2) The last decimal place was definitely ticking off faster than once per second. I think it was slower than twice a second. My "gut reaction" at the time was that it was going at about 100 ticks per minute, but I didn't actually time it with a stopwatch. I suppose someone could use this info to figure out exactly how long a star date is (at least, how long it is in subjective time, disregarding any relativistic time dilation or other considerations). I am, of course, not sure doing this would be worth it. -- Rich ------------------------------ Date: Wed 6 Jun 84 22:19:45-PDT From: Laurence R Brothers Subject: STIII (yet more) I must concur that the Klingon image has been totally downgraded by STIII. I suppose you could say the klingons we saw were just part of the semi-official Klingon "privateer" fleet, but still, they seemed more like Orion renegades than members of a military dictatorship. Another thing. Why are the Klingons now so strange looking with the warped skulls, and all? I seem to remember them being pretty much human looking, and I presume that even with Star Trek the TV show's low budget, if it had been desired that Klingons look so strange, they would have made them look like the weirdos they now seem to be. And did you believe T'pau -- wearing LIPSTICK? The Vulcan ceremony was the most ridiculuous thing I've seen in a long time. And why is Starfleet now such a bunch of twits? The image of all previous Star Trek material is that Starfleet consists of a group of dedicated, hand-picked, incredibly gifted naval types, not the gang of dimwits presented by STIII. With all the weirdness and inconsistency in STIII, I still agree with a previous flamer who admitted that he liked it anyway. -Laurence ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jun 84 2:03:49 EDT From: Ron Natalie Subject: STIII: Bird of prey? Even though it is strange that the ship is painted and referred to as a bird-of-prey (that is a Romulan contrivance), however the ship other than the painting looked Klingonish (two legs and a ball at the end of the neck). -Ron ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 84 12:04:14-PDT (Wed) From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!grw @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK (Heavy duty SPOILER!) 1. The Klingons at Genesis were rebelling against the Klingon empire itself (notice that they are a different race of Klingon from the ST-I Klingons). 2. Vulcan is not a mainstay of the Federation -- they have always been a fringe group; remember T'pau refused a seat in the senate. 3. After Kirk et. al. left for the Enterprise, Uhura scrambled all federation communications, so that the other Federation star ships were getting soap operas on their sub-space radios. Then she high-tailed it to the Vulcan embassy where Sarek granted her diplomatic immunity and took her to Vulcan. Thought you'd like to know. -Glenn ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 84 7:04:31-PDT (Tue) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!elsie!imsvax!rcc @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK (Heavy duty SPOILER!) One problem with your article. If you want to rant and rave about how meaningless Spock's death was, if they were going to bring him back why did they kill him in the first place, etc., direct all screams >Leonard Nimoy. The plot for ST II was designed for one purpose only, to write Spock out of Star Trek. His death was originally planned to occur a third of the way through the movie, but after word got out, they decided that Spock's death would have to be the climax of the film if things were going to work. Then, of course, somewhere through the production of ST II, Nimoy was having so much fun that he decided he wanted in on ST III, also. (I'd give a lot to see Harve Bennet's face when he got *that* piece of news) So, they went back and shot a few extra scenes that would make a "ressurection" possible (the remember scene and the Genesis planet surface scenes) and Bennet started tearing his hair out trying to figure out how he was going to write Spock back *in*. Given the rather conclusive way he wrote Spock out, I think he did a pretty good job. Sure, the film has a few problems, but all in all, I'd say that it was solid, vintage Star Trek. Now, I'm waiting for Star Trek IV. That should be good. Capt. Styles gets thoroughly embarrased, Kirk ends up with Excelsior, and then viola, Star Trek V: The Wrath of Styles... :-) The preceding message was brought to you by -- Ray Chen umcp-cs!eneevax!imsvax!rcc (NEW ADDRESS) ------------------------------ Date: Thu 7 Jun 84 09:54:11-EDT From: D-LAMB%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA Subject: Star Trek III - spoiler My overall reaction was: good, but not as good as STII. There were some inconsistencies that bothered me. 1. The other Saavik was better. 2. The Klingon ship kept changing size. 3. How can Spock remember his last words to Kirk, if he memory-dumped to McCoy *before* then? Old SF-Lovers fans will probably remember that various and sundry folks predicted that Spock would probably be brought back by some combination of the Genesis effect to restore the body and the mindlink with McCoy for the mind. It's easy to concentrate on gripes, though; the movie was well worth the price of admission. A friend of mine who is a real Star Trek fan says she loved it, because it proves they've ``got the series back''. ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 7 Jun 1984 07:01:30-PDT From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (The Stainless Steel Rat) Subject: ST III - I don't THINK this is a spoiler! Of the VERY FEW problems I had with Star Trek III, perhaps the worst was that they used a different actress for Saavik. I had a real thing there for Kirstie Alley... This new girl (there, see, I forgot her name already!) doesn't give a convincing portrayal. The obvious, and to me very attractive, FEMALE ANIMAL part of Saavik, ie her Romulan half, is totally missing. Too bad. Otherwise, the various plot devices, assorted acres of female flesh, etc., were quite in line with ST II and even more so with the series. The Kirk humour, which was sorely lacking in ST I (eugh!) was there in its proper place. In response to Ed Blanchett (Blanchett@RU-GREEN.ARPA) and his problem with a smoke trail from a burning object in space, think about it, Ed. Think in terms of re-entry. Still have a problem? Cheers, Dick Binder (The Stainless Steel Rat) UUCP: { decvax, allegra, ucbvax }!decwrl!rhea!dosadi!binder ARPA: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jun 84 12:47:49 EDT From: SV07@CMCCTF Subject: STIII ||||||| Maybe they didn't get Kirstie Alley because she wouldn't have been quite as convincing in the "pon farr" (or whatever) scene as this other Saavik was. It's too bad, too; the first Saavik *was* better. ||||||| The Excelsior looked just fine; the people who complain about the "new look" of the Federation's starships are the same people who scoff at new automobile models every year. Things change, people... The only thing I didn't like was that stupid "clunkety-clunk" noise. Right out of a Saturday-morning cartoon. Icccchhhh. There may have been a couple of other things I can't think of now, but besides these, STIII was marvelous. Like such movies as Return of the Jedi and The Natural, the story and certain plot devices did seem contrived at times, but the movie was...was so well put-together that it successfully suspended any disbeliefs I had. I was on the edge of my seat, despite the inconsistencies. It was great. I'm goin' again... From Pittsburgh! (twist, twist) and the cheerful digital abode of the Graffiti Monster (sv07@cmu-cc-tf) ------------------------------ Subject: ST III - Search for Spock Date: Thu, 7 Jun 84 16:44:14 EDT From: Jeffrey Grossman Just some comments about your complaints: re: 'the bar scene is too reminiscent of Star Wars' Well, of course! That whole scene was quite obviously a satire of SW. Almost everything in there was a parody of something in SW: the video game (chess on the Milennium Falcon), the funky atmosphere (Mos Eisley), the overly-weird alien head, and, best of all, when McCoy tries to hire a pirate vessel a security officer breaks up the talk! re: 'how come Kirk can see through the cloaking device but the computer can't' *That's* why he's captain, and the computer isn't. re: 'Kirk got away too easy' I agree, he flew off too easily, but he probably has not heard the last of it from the big brass at SFC. Live long and prosper, or Live again and be re-fused Jeff G. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 84 22:35:45-PDT (Tue) From: decvax!mcnc!duke!ucf-cs!giles @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK (Heavy duty SPOILER!) I found the largest hole of all in the plot: Star Fleet Command has declared the Genesis System "off limits" to everyone, is up to its drives with legal/political/moral/... difficulties pertaining to the Genesis device, its creation, its use, and purpose, etc, and they do not have *one* starship protecting the system. The single ship there was for the scientists (according to the first few minutes of the film), although its captain was sure power-crazy. In fact, this may very well be how they plan to give Kirk et nausea a new ship: "Well Jim, it seems you and your officiers single-handedly, and at great personal peril, prevented the Klingons from ...." Barf city! bruce giles decvax!ucf-cs!giles P.S. I liked the other saavik better. This one looks too much like a typical American actress with funny eyebrows and ears. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 12-Jun SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #116 *** EOOH *** Date: 12 Jun 84 1206-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #116 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 12 Jun 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 116 Today's Topics: Books - Dickson (4 msgs) & Gilliland & Varley, Films - Remember These? (5 msgs) & DUNE & Popularity & A Book on SF Films & Indiana Jones (2 msgs), Television - V: The Final Battle & Genesis II & 24 FPS (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 Jun 84 8:22:31-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!andrew @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Final Encyclopedia "Does anybody know when Gordon Dicksons' Final Encyclopedia is going to be available? It seems like its been promised forever as the conclusion for his Dorsai stories." Remember a couple of years ago when a certain Big Name manufacturer of magnetic media portrayed full page color ads showing Gordon Dickson touting their brand of floppy disk? He said that he wouldn't trust the word processing source to Final Encyclopedia to anything less. My fantasy is that the novel files got trashed and he had neglected to make backups. ("Whaddya mean, you typed 'rm * bak' instead of 'rm *.bak' ?!) -- Andrew Klossner (decvax!tektronix!orca!andrew) [UUCP] (orca!andrew.tektronix@rand-relay) [ARPA] ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jun 84 20:23:39-PDT (Thu) From: pur-ee!CS-Mordred!Pucc-H.Physics.dub @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: re:final encyclopedia Someone recently asked about the final book in Gordon Dickson's Chylde cycle (or something likee that) called "The final enceclopedia". Well, in this month's Analog magazine it is reviewed in their Reference Library section. Generally, the books reviewed there have been out for a few months, but in this case I don't know. I have not seen it on any book stalls. Dwight Bartholomew UUCP: {decvax,ucbvax,harpo,allegra,inuxc,seismo,teklabs}! pur-ee!Physics:dub INTERNET: dub @ pur-phy.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jun 84 11:46:09-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!clyde!watmath!utzoo!kcarroll @ From: Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Final Encyclopedia I don't know when "The Final Encycolpedia" is due out, but the last book by Dickson that I bought had a few lines on the cover advertising Dickson as "The author of The Final Encyclopedia". I expect it's on its way. -Kieran A. Carroll ...decvax!utzoo!kcarroll ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 84 3:59:06-PDT (Sun) From: decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: THE FINAL ENCYCLOPEDIA I learned from a well-informed source (he works for Gordy Dickson) this past New Year's that THE FINAL ENCYCLOPEDIA has been in the hands of Ace Books for quite some time. They just haven't scheduled it yet. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}!decwrl!dec-rhea! dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jun 84 11:05:00-PDT (Thu) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uiucuxc!hamilton @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Techno-sf - (nf) There's also a fourth, non-rosinante, gilliland novel (looks like they dug it out of the archives after the other 3 sold well). can't quite remember the title, but i'm pretty sure it was "(something...) the empire" (as in "escape from..." or "fall of..."). if you liked the emphasis on politics and intrigue in *.rosinante, you'll probably like this one too. wayne ({decvax,ucbvax}!pur-ee!uiucdcs!uiucuxc!)hamilton ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 84 14:49:00 PDT (Monday) From: Jef Poskanzer Subject: Titanide sexiness. To: LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA Hey, one of my close friends just happens to be a Titanide. Her name is Wind Chimes (Sharped Mixolydian Trio) Chorale. In her case, the stories are definitely true. Jef ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jun 84 0:29:53-PDT (Mon) From: decvax!vortex!lauren @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Remember these... All easy ones. The film with the robot and the spaceship, of course, is the CLASSIC "The Day the Earth Stood Still". Someone would almost have to be hiding in a closet for 30 years not to have seen this one. Klatuu to you, too. As for the Outer Limits episodes (the lizards attacking the dam, the "acid rain", etc... I provide the following excerpts from my official online "Outer Limits Episode Guide"... [The star rating is my personal opinion from one to four stars; the date is that of the original network airing of the episode. Maybe it's almost time for me to post the entire guide (and the Twilight Zone guide) again...] The Mutant (3/16/64) ** A man, accidently caught outside in an isotope rainfall on a newly discovered planet, turns into a mutant who can kill simply with his touch. He holds the whole outpost in isolation via this ability to destroy, and eventually has to deal with an inspector sent out to find out why things have been kinda strange with the outpost (the only one on the planet). Tourist Attraction (12/23/63) * A lizard-like creature is captured and frozen by an expedition in South America. It defrosts and does predictably horrid things. A real loser. --Lauren-- ------------------------------ Date: 07 Jun 84 09:16:56 PDT (Thu) Cc: ihnp4!ihuxb!alle@Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Does anybody remember these ? From: "Jim Hester" > > How about this one ? Some alien lands in Washington with a > > robot who guards the ship. I seem to recall this was one of > > the first science fiction movies with any class. All I > > remember with this one is that the alien tries to get back to > > his ship at the end of the movie and some human helps him, I > > think. > > This was "The Day the Earth Stood Still" with Michael Rennie. > The Robot's name was Klaatu. You are correct - this movie was > one of the first and still one of the best good science fiction > movies. I agree, this and "Forbidden Planet" are usually listed together as the two classic SF movies: TDtESS showing the typical sane scientist amid insanely paranoid military types, and FP showing a mad scientist amid sane (reasonably: a little girl happy after a long voyage) military types. Klaatu was the name of the man from the ship. The robot was called Gort. But if you prefer, in the short story "Farewell to the Master" on which the movie was based, the robot's name was Gorth. I feel the plot of the movie was better than the story, but since they were completely different except for some characters, the story is worth reading on it's own merits. ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jun 84 11:56:11-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!floyd!cmcl2!seismo!roc From: hester!rocksvax!sunybcs!hobbit @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Does anybody remember these ? [ GORT, Klaatu Borada ...er.....uh oh!] Sorry to bore everyone with this again, but... "THE DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL" ... Yes, Gort is the name of the robot (Also our pet name for our VAX 11/780!) and it is Patricia Neil's character who is told by Klaatu (Michael Rennie) "If any- thing should happen to me, tell Gort, 'Klaatu Borada Nikto'. DON'T FORGET!...". Apparently, if she didn't, Gort would destroy the world (never stated, but implied). QUESTION: Does anyone know what 'BORADA NIKTO' means??? If you do, please reply by mail to... The Comfy Hobbit Hole of--- -The Parker Hobbit a.k.a. Thomas R. Pellitieri UUCP: {allegra, seismo}!rochester!rocksvax!sunybcs!hobbit decvax!watmath!sunybcs!hobbit ARPA & CSNET: hobbit.buffalo@rand-relay ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jun 84 11:40:11-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!clyde!watmath!utzoo!kcarroll @ From: Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Does anybody remember these ? The movie wherein an alien ship lands in washigton, leaving a robot to stand guard, is "The Day the Earth Stood Still". An alright film, but nowhere near as good as the story it was freely adapted from: "Farewell to the Master", by Harry Bates. Boy, did I like this one! It appeared in Astounding, lo these many years ago (1941?), and the author was, I beleive, ASF's first editor (circa 1930). The ending was >much< more effective than that in the movie. I hope I got all the details of the citation right; it's been a few years since I read the story. -Kieran A. Carroll ...decvax!utzoo!kcarroll ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 84 14:07:51-PDT (Sun) From: ihnp4!pegasus!naiman @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Remember these... >> The Mutant (3/16/64) ** >> A man, accidently caught outside in an isotope rainfall on a >> newly discovered planet, turns into a mutant who can kill >> simply with his touch. He holds the whole outpost in >> isolation via this ability to destroy, and eventually has to >> deal with an inspector sent out to find out why things have >> been kinda strange with the outpost (the only one on the >> planet). >> >> Tourist Attraction (12/23/63) * >> A lizard-like creature is captured and frozen by an >> expedition in South America. It defrosts and does >> predictably horrid things. A real loser. "The Mutant" sounds like the one I remember, but "Tourist Attraction" does not. I seem to recall people trying to figure out their language and I distinctly remember there being many of them. ==> Ephrayim J. Naiman @ AT&T Information Systems Laboratories (201) 576-6259 Paths: [ihnp4, allegra, ...]!pegasus!naiman ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jun 84 16:12 EDT (Fri) From: Mijjil (Matthew J Lecin) Subject: trailer for DUNE I think I saw the same trailer. A definite "bladerunneresque" look about it - dark and dingy. I think they were either showing a scene on Geidi Prime, the Harkonnen home world, or DUNE is going to be NOT what any of us expect. My imagination expects brilliant white sands and blindinglybright SUNSHINE. The trailer does not show any of that. {Mijjil} ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 8 Jun 1984 13:22:26-PDT From: eppes%r2me2.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Nina) Subject: Popularity In SF-LOVERS Vol. 9 #108, Scott Turner says "...I'd say that Indy II is outselling ST III even during prime time." Well, there was an article in the Boston Globe recently that stated that in its first weekend Star Trek III out-grossed Temple of Doom's first weekend. (Can't recall the exact figures. They were fairly close -- something like $16.9 million for ST and $16.3 million for ToD.) -- Nina Eppes ------------------------------ Date: Fri 8 Jun 84 22:51:27-EDT From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA Subject: SF Movies - Book There have been a lot of posts recently about SF movies. May I recommend to you a good book on the subject: John Baxter: Science Fiction in the Cinema (The International Film Guide Series, 1970) It discusses plot, theme, psychology, and all that good stuff, and covers (roughly) the period from Metropolis to Farenheit 451 ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 4 Jun 1984 11:50:05-PDT From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (The Stainless Steel Rat) Subject: Indiana Jones - SLIGHT SPOILER *** *** *** *** *** *** SLIGHT SPOILER *** *** *** *** *** *** Having seen IJatToD, I must disagree with the enthusiastic comments so fair aired in its behalf. It is *NOT* a good film. Oh, don't get me wrong - I enjoyed it in spots, but it has several failings: 1. The plot really isn't one; it's just an excuse for the Indy Follies. Not that RotLA's was much better, but it at least made sense - this one doesn't even have that quality. 2. There is no character development. And there are no characters. The girl, especially, is a notable noncharacter - contrast Karen Allen's character in RotLA with the screaming hysterics (and very little else!) of this bubblehead. Why Indy would ever get interested in her is a mystery. 3. The gore was all too realistic and overdone. Half of it could have been left out with a net gain in enjoyableness. Consider the sacrifice scene. 4. The action was too frenetic. The really great thing about RotLA that made it so wonderfully exciting and enjoyable was the fact that there were pauses for the viewer to catch his/her breath, to take stock and see that all arms and legs were still there. Not so in IJatToD. It's one continuous action sequence from start to finish. I'll probably go to see RotLA if it comes round again. But I won't bother with IJatToD. Better to spend my money on Star Trek III, which I liked immensely. Cheers, Dick Binder (The Stainless Steel Rat) UUCP: {decvax|allegra|ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!dosadi!binder ARPA: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Jun 84 12:06:53 EDT From: Ron Natalie Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #107 Will someone tell me how Indiana Jones even remotely qualifies as Science Fiction? -Ron ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jun 84 4:09:25-PDT (Thu) From: decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: re: Nonsense in V > Sorry, John was superior to Sarah Douglas. > David D. Levine *No one* is superior to Sarah Douglas! :-) --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}!decwrl!dec-rhea! dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 84 1:32:14-PDT (Wed) From: ihnp4!zehntel!zinfandel!berry @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Genesis II 2 Ah yes -- Genesis II. Filmed at the University of California Riverside campus (at least the exteriors) while I was there. We had great fun cheering the burning of the Library.... When it came out, we had fun laughing at how the people kept teleporting all over campus (the scene-to-scene continuity was RIDICULOUS iff you knew campus geography well). Ah, memories of youth.... Berry Kercheval Zehntel Inc. (ihnp4!zehntel!zinfandel!berry) (415)932-6900 ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jun 84 8:36:56-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!rd From: in!perl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Reason for 24 fps >I believe the 24 fps speed is the minimum speed required for lip >sync -- i.e, the minimum speed at which the sound track can be >synchronized with lip motion and have the latter appear natural. Super 8 sound records sound at 18 fps. Robert Perlberg Resource Dynamics Inc. New York philabs!rdin!perl ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 11 Jun 1984 15:19:46-PDT From: libman%grok.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Sandy Libman) Subject: Wagon Wheels RE: The easiest place to detect flicker is watching wagon wheels turning. Good Grief! Haven't you watched any television in the last decade. There aren't any more wagon wheels. They've all become helicopter rotors. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 84 14:23:06-PDT (Sun) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!clyde!burl!ulysses!gamma!mb2c!twh From: @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Reason for 24 fps Super 8 cameras (good ones) record sound movies at 18 *OR* 24 fps. Movement with/without sound does not look good at 18 fps. 24 fps is too slow, but not as noticeable. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 15-Jun SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #117 *** EOOH *** Date: 15 Jun 84 1124-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #117 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 15 Jun 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 117 Today's Topics: Books - Clarke & Gilliland & Peake & Japanese Stories, Films - The Day the Earth Stood Still (4 msgs) & Star Wars & Temple of Doom & 24 FPS (2 msgs), Television - Outer Limits & Dr. Who Miscellaneous - Getting Rich by Time Travel & Physics & Magazines for Sale ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Jun 84 8:12:45-PDT (Tue) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!clyde!watmath!utzoo!dciem!ntt @ From: Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Clarke's Laws (Re: Death Star weapon) Since a misquotation of Clarke's (First) Law was posted to sf-lovers a week or so ago, and nobody has put in a correction, I thought I would. The previous poster referred to a "highly placed" scientist, which isn't it. While I'm at it, I include his other Laws and his comments about them. The rest of this message is excerpted from "Profiles of the Future" by Arthur C. Clarke, 1973 revised edition. Too great a burden of knowledge can clog the wheels of imagination; I have tried to embody this fact of observation in Clarke's Law, which may be formulated as follows: When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong. Perhaps the adjective "elderly" requires definition. In physics, mathematics, and astronautics it means over thirty; in the other disciplines, senile decay is sometimes postponed to the forties. There are, of course, glorious exceptions... [Some pages later] ...[T]he only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little past them into the impossible.* [Footnote] *The French edition [of the first edition] of this book rather surprised me by calling this Clarke's Second Law. ... I accept the label, and have also formulated a Third: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." As three laws were good enough for Newton, I have modestly decided to stop there. Posted by Mark Brader ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 84 18:53:00-PDT (Tue) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uiucuxc!hamilton @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Techno-sf the gilliland title i couldn't quite remember is "end of the empire". the copyright date is '83, so maybe it isn't pre-rosinante after all. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jun 84 14:23:00-PDT (Wed) From: hplabs!hp-pcd!hpfcla!hpfclg!bayes @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: request for info >Can anyone tell me who wrote the book "Titus Groan" (the first of a >trilogy)? Any idea where I could find a copy? > >Thanks, > >Wendy Nather {ihnp4!,seismo!,allegra!}ut-sally!pooh I believe Titus Groan was written by Mervyn Peake. Scott Bayes ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jun 84 13:19 MST From: RNeal@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Japanese swords and sorcery I would like to request from the users of this meeting a list of books and authors. What I am looking for are sword and sorcery novels set in the orient (Samurai, dragons, demons, etc.). The only one I currently know of is RAJAN, by Tim Lukeman. Any help would be appreciated. Don't let this one stump you like my previous request for stories about what robots do on their day off......... >RUSTY< RNeal%pco -at cisl ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 84 22:06:34 PDT (Tue) To: hobbit.buffalo@Csnet-Relay Subject: Re: Does anybody remember these ? From: "Jim Hester" To my knowledge, and that of my reference books, the meaning of "Klaatu Barada Nikto" was never disclosed. However, the robot's behavior implies one of two messages. The first would be a simple plea to help Klaatu rather than destroy the Earth. As you pointed out, Klaatu never said that Gort would do that, but he told the woman that he was afraid of what Gort would do if he were killed. When she asked him what a single robot could do, he said that it could destroy the world if it decided to. He later said the same thing to the scientist, Professor Barnhard. Thus one interpretation would be "Klaatu Needs Help". The other possibility stems more from Gort's immediate action upon hearing the message: he returned to the ship and activated the main screen. Klaatu used this screen on at least one occasion, and it seemed that he was giving verbal commands to the ship's computer. He might also have been communicating with confederates, either for advice or help for his 'demonstration'. Gort's use of the screen could have been for two purposes: to use the ship's instruments for locating Klaatu, or for getting advice from the ship's computer or others. I doubt Gort would have consulted the ship's computer, due to the nature of the intelligence Klaatu described built into the robot police force. It is possible that he might want to consult humans on a policy matter if specifically instructed to by Klaatu. Thus the second interpretation might be "Klaatu requests you seek advice", or just "Gort, Phone Home" (I can't take credit for the pun, it appeared some time ago on a bboard). I don't have a preference between these theories. I can't see Klaatu sending a message (in the event of his death) to Gort just to come and help him, although he certainly might send something like 'help me if possible, otherwise consult the home office before doing anything rash'. Given the length of the message, I would expect Klaatu to instruct Gort to phone home for instructions, but it seemed to me that Gort was using the screen to find Klaatu rather than communicate (just a feeling, really). Klaatu's description of the robot police force made it clear that they were mentally as well as physically capable of destroying the planet, which implies a high degree of intelligence and independence. I doubt Gort would think of phoning home on his own. My pet theory is that the message, if we knew the literal translation, would still be somewhat cryptic. I believe that Klaatu was reminding the robot of part of the Code it followed: that it must exhaust all possibilities before becomming violent on a planetary scale (Klaatu mentioned that they AUTOMATICALLY react against aggressors, but there must be some tempering in there for cases like when it's master just disappears). This reminder may have been in the form of quoting a rule, or something like "Klaatu is the policy-maker on this mission". In other words, I don't believe the message was a request at all, but something with special meaning to the robot, that would interrupt the automatic strike reflex and get it started thinking and recognizing it's options (including BOTH or EITHER rescuing Klaatu or calling for advise) before it went berserk. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jun 1984 1557 PDT From: Jeff Skaletsky Subject: Gort! (what did he ask me to say?) Reply-to: JEFF@JPL-VLSI.ARPA A friend of mine OWNS Gort, bought from a studio auction. He, by the way was one of a few: this one is simply a rigid statue, about 8 feet tall, I seem to remember (haven't seen him in a while). I tried to get my friend to install him in an elevator on the front lawn, so that he would rise when you rang the doorbell. Anyway, I asked Gort what "Klaatu Borada Nikto" meant, and he told me it was "Klaatu will tell you where the 3-in-One is if you don't destroy the world." {_Jeff_} ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 84 15:05:31-PDT (Tue) From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!grw @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Does anybody remember these ? "Klaatu Barada Nikto" means, "Klaatu says not to bother with destroying the earth." -Glenn ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jun 84 9:59:02-PDT (Wed) From: ihnp4!iwsl4!m2int @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Does anybody remember these ? You all are wrong the robots name in the Day the earth Stood still was GORT. Klatu was the man . Charles Smith ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 84 13:24:12-PDT (Tue) From: hplabs!hao!ames-lm!barry @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Continuity error in Star Wars (trivia question) There is a continuity error in "Star Wars" which, to the best of my knowledge, has been spotted by no one but me. I offer official accolades (i.e., I'll post notice of your brilliance) to anyone who can figure out what the error is. Scene is as follows: Luke, Han, Leah, et. al., have just made good their escape from the deathstar, and destroyed the sentry ships. Han and Leah are having a conversation on the bridge of the Millenium Falcon. There is SOMETHING WRONG with this scene. Anybody want to take a crack at it? I'll post the answer in a couple of weeks, along with suitable praise for anyone who answers it correctly. If you have a tape of SW, checking it is not cheating; the error is not obvious even while watching. Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA Electric Avenue: {dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames-lm!barry ------------------------------ Date: Wed 13 Jun 84 19:03:13-EDT From: Bernard Gunther Subject: Temple of Doom A few weeks ago, a friend of mine, mis-hearing the mention that the film Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, thought he heard "Temple of Dune" to which he said the most memorable line from this movie never to be: Standing on the edge of a five mile chasm, "Sandworms! Why did it have to be sandworms?!" Just thought you might appreciate it. Bernie Gunther (bmg@xx) ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 84 12:39:44-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!shark!davew @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Reason for 24 fps Silent movies were shot at 16 fps which gave a resonably jitter free picture. When sound recording came along it was found that the optical sound system could not record a sound above 4500-5000 Hertz because of the size of the film grain. While this would be good enough for speech, it was not good enough for music and sound effects. The film speed was increased to 90 feet per minute (24 fps) to get better sound response. Optically recorded sound tracks generally begin rolling off at 7000 Hertz. It was found that this was an acceptable number as many of the movie houses of the time had very poor acoustics and higher frequency response only added to the problem. Many of the movie houses were long and narrow (They were called shooting galleries) and standing wave problems were common. When stereophonic sound recorded on magnetic film came out in the fifties many of these problems resurfaced and the theaters either had to do some acoustic treatment to their facilities or roll off the sound at about 7-8000 Hz. Incidently magnetic film is the correct term as it was either magnetically striped 35 mm prints or a seperate 35 mm acetate film base coated with magnetic material. The sound track was run through a special playback unit sync'd up with the projector. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jun 84 11:26:20 EDT From: Don Provan@CMU-CS-A Subject: wagon wheels well, since wagon wheels tend to appear to rotate backwards when viewed in the real world, i sorta doubt ANY film speed could avoid this problem. remember that your vision system has a scan rate, too. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 84 1:25:19-PDT (Tue) From: decvax!vortex!lauren @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: "Tourist Attraction" The "Tourist Attracton" Outer Limits episode may still be the one being discussed. The guide only gives a very brief summary. In the actual episode, they do indeed figure out the creature's language and find out that it is calling for "help." A whole slew of the creatures appear from the deeps (LOTS of them!) and they destroy a dam and do other similar things. --Lauren-- ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 84 6:22:35-PDT (Tue) From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!pegasus!hocsh!rrj @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Dr. Who question Can anyone tell me what, exactly, is a jelly baby? ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 7 Jun 1984 07:15:09-PDT From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (The Stainless Steel Rat) Subject: Selling fuel to Patton, reprise > From: Warren Sander > Subject: How to get poor via time travel > In reply to all the "sell gas to Patton" ways to get rich all one > has to look at is the price of gas today and in 1944-45. Even with > the war and rationing gas still sold at about $.30 - $.40 per > gallon. Even if Patton was extremely rich and would by your gas > how can you make money buying $1.20 per gallon gas and selling it > for say $.50 - $.60 per gallon (Patton wouldn't pay $1.40 or so > for gas). That is more like how to get poor via time travel. The point Warren is overlooking is obvious. Assuming that selling petrol to Patton were a good idea, which I don't, then the only sensible way to get it would be to time-travel to the days BEFORE the war and purchase it at $.19 per gallon. The catch there is money. But if you travel even further back and take advantage of Warren's own suggestion to invest in some 200-years-old collectible, say two or three Brasher Doubloons or One-penny Black stamps, then sell it in 1935 to get the right kind of money, and THEN buy the petrol, who's to complain? Cheers, Dick Binder (The Stainless Steel Rat) UUCP: { decvax, allegra, ucbvax }!decwrl!rhea!dosadi!binder ARPA: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Tue 12 Jun 84 13:15:41-EDT From: Wang Zeep Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #109 There is no second law of thermodynamics. There is, however, a postulate that something like entropy exists (with a long list of properties) and another postulate that it tends to reach a maximum with respect to unconstrained variables. This 1st, 2nd, 3rd "law" stuff is strictly 19th century (well, part of the 20th). Read Laszlo Tisza, "Generalized Thermodynamics" or Herbert Callen, "Thermody- namics". Summary: They aren't laws, just postulates. (and they have been verified to break down with very large or very small systems.) 'Nuff said, Wang ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 84 8:12:43-PDT (Mon) From: ihnp4!houxm!houxa!4375jlf @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Early F&SF Magazines For Sale For Sale: The Magazine of Fantasy, Vol.1 No.1 (Fall '49) and Vol.1 No.3 (Summer '50) (This was the progenitor of F&SF Mag.) Fantasy & Science Fiction: Dec. '50, Dec. '51 Fantasy & Science Fiction: complete years; '52, '53, '54, '55, '56, '58, '59, '61, '62, '63, '64. Also Jan. & Feb. '65. All in excellent condition. In re-reading these over the past couple of years, I am amazed at how much of what we now think of as "classic" SF was first printed in F&SF. Other good stuff too--like the stories that were later turned into "Wodehouse Playhouse" on public TV. Terms of Sale: $125 plus approximate UPS charges. I can be reached usenet reply, or phone (201) 842-4248 after 6 PM EDT. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 15-Jun SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #118 *** EOOH *** Date: 15 Jun 84 1202-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #118 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 15 Jun 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 118 Today's Topics: ****** SPECIAL STAR TREK ISSUE ****** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 Aug 83 20:52:47 EDT From: Jaffe@RUTGERS Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!! The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the movie "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock". People who have not yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following messages. Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jun 84 22:31 CDT From: Jerry Bakin Subject: Consistency is for a Logical Calculus, not for Star Trek. I am glad that I caught all of the inconsistencies noted by the intrepid readers of SF-Lovers. I definitely liked the flick anyway, and I think I know why the inconsistencies haven't been a problem to the enjoyment of the cine. Let's remember, this is Star Trek. Has Star Trek ever been consistent? If so, why not journey to the Ellison planet and ask the Guardian of Forever for Spock? If that doesn't work, take the Excelsior on a hairpin ride around a star, and travel back in time, and grab Spock out of the engine room and into the Excelsior's beam room. Admit it, if the plot had been consistent it wouldn't have been Star Trek! I've been away from the ARPAnet for about two months, so forgive me if these comments are a little stale. Other comments on STIIITSFS: o Once you realized it was Reverend Jim the cabbie, did the Klingon Commander seem nearly as mean? o The Hunter male has long served country. It is good to see that Howard Hunter's lineage is continued into the Star Trek era. I bet all those Hunters have been just as pompous. I wonder when Howard get's a kid in Hill Street Blues? Maybe he gets one of his hooker friends pregnant. But this discussion is better off in net.blues.... o Scottie was given at least a week to disable the Excelsior, a task that would only take him an hour or so. (He'd say fifteen minutes inorder to maintain his reputation.) Obviously he spent the rest of the week getting the Excelsior to make the Saturday Morning Cartoon noises. o From my American Heritage Dictionary: Excelsior n. Wood shavings used for packing, stuffing, etc. o Have people noticed the presence of Yeoman Janice Rand in the bar? The biggest lose was the loss of Kirstie Alley (sigh) Jerry. P.S. I guess that V'ger can take care of itself, but that seems like a more powerful weapon than the genesis bomb. (cf. Startide Rising) ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 84 6:22:55-PDT (Wed) From: decvax!genrad!grkermit!masscomp!clyde!burl!ulysses!allegra!alice From: !alb @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Star Trek III -- "In Search Of... Spock" You have it backwards. The Klingons did not steal the Bird of Prey from the Romulans. Rather, the Klingons gave the Romulans most of their technology. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Jun 84 18:26:48 edt From: Beth Gazouleas Subject: stIII (more spoiler!) it's possible that spock knew his last words to kirk because mccoy knew them. i don't remember, was mccoy conscious during that scene? i think he was because he and scotty stopped kirk from running into the irradiated chamber with spock. so perhaps spock has a few of mccoy's memories mixed in with his own? i realize this sounds contrived, but why not? also, here's a contrived explanation for why spock didn't blow up with the Genesis planet. his cells were regenerated by the genesis effect, but it was an unstable regeneration, like the planet. perhaps spock's naturally stable state was the age he was when he "died". the planet had no naturally stable state, so it blew up, but spock stopped degenerating when he reached the state he had been in. this is also contrived, but i like it better than saying he was "tied" to the planet and stopped aging because he was taken out of its atmosphere. the planet blew up! i think that means we've really seen the last of david and the enterprise. at least i hope so, it would be pretty bad if they were so starved for plot that they had to bring them back. all in all, though, i loved the movie. i've seen it twice already and i hope to see it many more times. i really do think they have the flavor of the series back, scantily clad women and all. i can't wait for st IV. --beth (beth%upenn-asp@upenn@csnet-relay) ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 84 14:11:26 EDT (Sunday) Subject: Re: Shades of 1984 (st III) From: Chris Heiny To: Sander@DEC-MARLBORO.ARPA 'It's amazing how the enterprise can film everything that is going on even during the most critical battle situations (that is when you would want to see everything isn't it?). Maybe 1984 is only 300 years away as it is in ST III?' Perhaps there are recorders not unlike the "black boxes" found on commercial airplanes. They'd cover critical areas like the bridge, engine room, weapons control, etc. If you run an endless tape (say 2 hours on Enterprise. It's about 30 minutes on airliners), you will constantly overwrite the normal, uninteresting stuff. When something interesting occurs (like a space battle, or running into a star, or someone jumping into the engines), you remove the tape for the records. Hail Eris, Chris ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 84 14:25:22 EDT From: Eric Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #115 Date: Wed 6 Jun 84 22:19:45-PDT From: Laurence R Brothers Subject: STIII (yet more) And did you believe T'pau -- wearing LIPSTICK? The Vulcan ceremony was the most ridiculuous thing I've seen in a long time. Remember that the Vulcans were once one of the most barbaric, illogical races in existence. Many of their old ceremonies and traditions simply stayed with them, perhaps as a means of remembering what perils such barbarism and illogic brings -much like the Jewish tradition - "Remember what so and so did to you" etc.. so it would not happen again. Surely there is no logic to the ceremony, but it is something so ancient and so personal to the Vulcans, that not even they can clearly justify its existence... "The word is warp speed" Wreckless Eric ARPA: Lavitsky@Rutgers UUCP: ...harpo!whuxlb!ru-blue!lavitsky ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 84 11:12 PDT From: Hank Shiffman Subject: ST III - Vulcan Matriarch The old woman in charge of the Vulcan ceremony was NOT the one from the Amok Time episode. Celia Lovsky played T'Pau. I don't believe that Dame Judith Anderson was referred to by that name in the film, so perhaps she was meant to be a different character. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 84 21:43:46-EDT (Fri) From: ihnp4!ihnss!knudsen @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: stIII: Genesis vs V'ger I have to agree with the posting that suggested that V'ger (from ST-1) would make a better weapon that Genesis. I mean, V'ger digested whole planets just to see what made them tick. Having just seen ST3, I am disappointed that the 2nd and 3rd flicks have completely ignored anything from the 1st movie. The 1st movie was VERY MUCH about Spock -- his struggle between cold logic and human feelings -- which should he choose? I hope the trekkies who keep downgrading ST-1 will think about this. And yes, that Vulcan ceremony in ST3 was a lot hokier, but otherwise much like the entry thru V'ger's cloud cover. ... mike k ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 1984 08:45 EDT (Tue) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" Subject: STIII Of course they destroyed the Enterprise: it was too old and too badly damaged to repair. On the other hand, are you familiar with the a custom of the US Navy: whenever a ship is destroyed in combat, the next one of that class is often given the same name (how many vessels named Enterprise have there been...?). ------------------------------ From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Date: 12 Jun 84 14:38:44 EDT Subject: Dumping the ST File Time to dump the Star Trek file in preparation for the long wait 'til ST IV: Hitch Hikers' Guide to the Federation... I've seen some celluloid colanders in my time, but this one you couldn't even drain bowling balls in. How are we to take a big-budget movie where they can't even keep the spaceships the same size from scene to scene? The only way I could accept ST III was to consider it the descendent of real midlate Sixties High Camp, like Batman circa 1966. (If any of you are creaky-old enough to have watched Batman in 1966...) The capper was having the Excelsior limp out of Starbase sounding like a '69 Mustang about to drop its transmission. Yes, I laughed, but hell, this is Star Trek, not Airplane VIII or something. My personal favorite character was the Klingons' dog. As my dear wife observed: "I'd hate to be the one who had to wash the rugs after that mutt rolled on 'em." Amen. Speaking of Klingons, this may be the time to print the Klingon Christmas Carol I wrote some years back, to the tune of "Christmas Is Coming (The Goose is Getting Fat)": Klingons are coming; they pack a lot of clout/ Rev up your hyperdrive and let's clear out! If you haven't got a hyperdrive a phaser beam'll do, But if you haven't got a phaser beam then Ghod...help....you! High Camp. I can forgive them this. I forgave them the Yangs and the Comes, after all. Odd note: Sometime in the ukky early-mid Seventies a friend dropped this groaty girly mag in my hands and said, "Poor Uhuru. That it had to come to this." And sure enough, there she was, leaning on a chair as God made her, though without the 3C28 heatsink clipped to her earlobe. Did anybody else see that? I'll bet it's worth some kind of a fortune today. Makes you wonder what Nichelle is going to do if the current ST revival dribbles out. She's a little old to go back to Jugs Monthly--Beware the Perils of Typcasting! Now let's talk about something else, please! --Jeff Duntemann duntemann.wbst@xerox ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 84 12:09:00-PDT (Sun) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!friedman @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: ST III (not a spoiler) > at one point several actors (no names mentioned) were looking up > at the sky from a planet and seeing something burning (am not > saying what it was), and seeing smoke trailing from it. How can > smoke exist in space, where there is not atmosphere to hold it? Or > could that have been light deflected from particles from the > burning object? It wasn't burning in space; it had hit atmosphere, and was burning on entry. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 84 10:48:09-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!clyde!burl!ulysses!gamma!pyuxww!py From: uxn!rlr @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Star Trek III (what else? -- contains SPOILERS & Subject: QUESTIONS) First, I loved this movie. It *felt* like an episode. It *felt* like I was watching a new episode of the ST series and not a movie based on that series, and for me, that was good. Now on with the pixie hats, and the asking of silly questions and the making of wsilly comments: 1. I was kind of disappointed that T'Pao didn't call Spock "Tspoke" the way she did in "Amok Time". The Vulcan Vestal Virgins were definitely what I would call visually disjunctive. 2. Will the Enterprise be regenerated by the Genesis effect? Since protomatter was used in Genesis, isn't the following scenario possible? David and Kruge are regenerated, but due to a time warp caused by the protomatter they go back in time to a Los Angeles high school and the streets of New York City. David becomes a nerdy/neo-punk student, and Kruge, due to brain damage from the regeneration, becomes a derelict who later becomes a cab driver (on Square Pegs and Taxi, respectively). Don't you remember Reverend Jim saying "I used to command a spaceship" from time to time... 3. Was it EXACTLY the same destruct sequence used in "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield"????? 4. WHAT ABOUT THE ORGANIAN SPACE TREATY??? Didn't that "treaty", imposed by the Organians, mean that ANY violence between the Klingons and the Federation would cause the same interference by the Organians as in the original episode, or am I misinterpreting the essence of the treaty? 5. Was the opening inset scene (shown in black and white) with Spock dying in the chamber talking to Kirk *re-shot*? His \\// hand didn't slide down the glass as I remember it? 6. To add a few of my favorite quotes to Roger's: "That's what happens when you miss staff meetings." "Because the needs of the one outweighed the needs of the many." That last one really got to me. In a way, as long as we're busy drawing analogies to the SW trilogy, "the needs of ..." quotes from both movies are slightly analogous to the trading of "I love you"--"I know"s in TESB/ROTJ. 7. In "Menagerie", when Spock showed the footage of the Enterprise under Pike, the "film" was stopped with someone exclaiming "No starship keeps (kept?) such records!" Do they do so "now" (in ST3 time)? (Apparently) I'm referring to Kirk's playback of the scene from ST2 in engineering. AT THE TONE PLEASE LEAVE YOUR NAME AND NET ADDRESS. THANK YOU. Rich Rosen pyuxn!rlr ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 1984 1650-EDT From: Warren Sander Subject: STIII (not a spoiler) I saw the movie and liked it but I recommend that you read the book to get all the seens that were cut from the movie (or not filmed at all). Isn't to bad that to see the complete movie you have to wait until it is on TV. Movies like SUPERMAN (ecch) had many scenes in the TV version that they didn't have in the theaters (is that because theaters make money by moving people through in the shortest possible time and TV makes money by stretching out the movie so that they can put in more commericals) anyway I would like to see the missing scenes from ST-III. Warren Sander (SANDER at DEC-MARLBORO) ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 84 7:34:03-PDT (Tue) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!ritcv!ccivax!abh @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Star Trek III (what else? -- contains SPOILERS & Subject: QUESTIONS) Thank you, Mr. Rosen, for shedding new light and different perspectives on this fanatico-culttype/religion which seems to preclude common sense for a strange affliction of hyper-rationalization. Forgive me for my mutational tastes, but not being attracted to cults, I find many other forms of entertainment superior to Trek movies. 'Scuse me now, I think I hear Vulcan slave calling...... Andrew ...{rlgvax | decvax | ucbvax!allegra}!rochester!ritcv!ccivax!abh "From the ever cycling epicenter of Rochester...." ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 18-Jun SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #119 *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Jun 84 1132-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #119 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 18 Jun 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 119 Today's Topics: Books - A Short Book Review, Films - Gremlins (4 msgs) & Ghostbusters (2 msgs) & The Day the Earth Stood Still (3 msgs), Television - Dr. Who (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri 15 Jun 84 11:08:36-EDT From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA Subject: Book Notice This book was published in April, it says, but I only just read it Kirk Mitchell : Procurator It is subtitled "a novel of alternate history" and "the glory of Rome lives on", which should tell you what it's about. The Roman Empire has survived until today, and is still expanding. Technologically they are about at the equivalent of Europo-American WW II, with some good twists, such as flamethrowers called "portable Greek fire projectors", and some more amusing terms that are plausibly evolved from the latin language and Roman history. It's a reasonably good adventure story, with fairly stock characters; my one beef is that the hero tries too obviously to act like Marcus Aurelius. Worth the $2-75 I paid . Ace Books 0-441-68029-1 WARNING: The blurb on the back says too much. You might prefer not to read it. The point of historical divergence is given in the blurb, and ALSO on a page just after the title page. I wish I'd read neither of them before starting on the story ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 84 2:19:24-PDT (Sun) From: decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-elmer!goun @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Gremlins I went to see Steven Spielberg's "Gremlins" last night. Here are some of my impressions; I'll try not to generate any spoilers. In the first thirty minutes or so, I had to wonder if this whole thing was just some toy company's way of cleaning up next Christmas with "Gizmo" dolls, T-shirts, games, etc. It was simply too cute to live! By the time things started getting gross, I'd had so much cute I was numb to the thrills and chills. If this movie has a spiritual father, it's a classic short called "Bambi vs. Godzilla," in which the lovable deer is crushed beneath the foot of the giant reptile. "Gremlins" parodies an amazing number of motion-picture cliches, including (naturally) some Spielberg movies. It's right on target, and often very funny. I loved the mother's scene in the kitchen with the gremlins, and the gremlins in the bar were wonderful. Billy's love interest I could have done without. She was a carbon copy of the wimpy teenager in "WarGames." The creature animation reminded me of "The Dark Crystal." That is to say, very natural-looking motion, and creatures that I believed could just have escaped from somebody's nightmare. The only fault I could find was with the frequent close-ups of Gizmo, which looked rather plastic (especially the eyes). I'd put "Gremlins" somewhere between "Star Trek III" and "Indiana Jones" in terms of being worth your $4.50 this week, or even more if you don't love "Star Trek." I'd take a ten-year-old to see it, but I'm not too sure about a younger child. My shock quotient may be abnormally high these days after seeing "Indiana Jones." "Nothing shocks me, I'm a scientist." Roger ARPA: goun%elmer.DEC@decwrl.ARPA UUCP: {allegra, decvax, ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!elmer!goun USPS: Digital Equipment Corp., HLO2-2/H13 77 Reed Road; Hudson, MA 01749 MCIMail: RGoun Tel: (617) 568-6311 ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jun 84 12:54:37 EDT From: SHERMAN@RU-BLUE.ARPA Subject: Gremlins Rave/view Displaying an absolutely perfect mixture of humor and nastiness, Joe Dante's film "Gremlins" is an exhilarating exercise in filmmaking. The story is particularly well developed and the special effects are terrific. The setting is the town of Kingston Falls, a place which Norman Rockwell would have been proud of. There is a tasteful dusting of brilliant white snow everywhere, and when people get drunk they remain nice and sensible. Enter the ill fated Rand Peltzer, an inventor who has just bought a most unusual Christmas gift for his vapid son, Billy. This gift, the obscure Mogwai, is named Gizmo and is arguably the most effectively executed creature ever developed. The full range of facial expressions are dazzling and convincing, not to mention endearing. Before you can say "gosh!" all of the three cardinal rules regarding the little critter are broken and all hell breaks loose. It seems that when you feed them after midnight they change into something worse than a landlord (hard to believe, I know, but nonetheless true). This resulting mayhem is what the film leads up to, and it is well worth the wait. Hundreds of demonic Mogwai descend upon the town in an orgy of violence and fun. Some of the best scenes occur in the bar where Billy's girlfriend Kate (Phoebe Cates) gets stuck serving drinks to these sharp-toothed and low-tipping creatures. The deadly Mogwai are absolutely hilarious in their overt humanness; the `guy' smoking three cigarettes at a time, the jazz listener, and the break dancer (!!!) are absolutely incredible to behold. Mixed in throughout the film are references to a host of other films and film genres. The ordering of a "vodka martini, shaken not stirred," by a upwardly mobile bank worker was quite amusing, although no one else in the audience seemed to share my enthusiasm! There is no doubt about it; "Gremlins" is a tremendous movie. So far I have seen it twice, and plan on seeing it a least a couple of more times. The pacing, script, and cinematography are all superb. The deliberately flat human characterizations are interesting and effective in highlighting the validity of the Mogwai. I can only hope that audiences take the initiative to check out the film for themselves, rather than relying on unfavorable reviews from the likes of Vincent Canby from the NY Times. *Steve* ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jun 84 22:33:40-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!whuxle!otto @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: GREMLINS comments Once you suspend your disbelief enough to accept the existence of these creatures*, this movie is light, tight, exciting, and tense. The scary scenes are nicely balanced by humor that creates a kind of magical aura surrounding the deeds shown. There seems to be a trend in films recently of having jokes and humor happening in the background while the action proceeds in the foreground. I noticed some of this in the Inventor's Convention scenes. (Equipment and dialog taken right out of other films!) Were there other background jokes in other parts of the movie? On the whole I would recommend this picture, although I could understand how it might give young ones nightmares. George Otto AT&T Bell Labs, Whippany * These creatures should *never* be allowed contact with water, must be kept out of the light, and must *never* be fed after midnight! Hmmm... Sounds like the result of normal evolutionary forces to me. (:-) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 84 21:59:28 edt From: romkey@mit-borax (John L. Romkey) Subject: Gremlins ... slight spoiler I just saw Gremlins last night and really enjoyed it. I can understand why some people didn't like it: you have to be prepared to not take the movie to seriously. The only part of the movie I didn't like much was the ending, when the movie started taking itself too seriously (the moral of the story and everything). As for gore, a lot of people died, but the only gore was gremlin gore. Maybe you just have to be sufficiently warped to appreciate it, especially the Pelker Gremlin Peeler and Juicer, and the microwave oven scene. Something I really liked about the movie was all the hacks. Here's a list of the ones I can remember off the top of my head: 1. Billy is at the bar doing some cartooning. "Mr. Jones" is sitting next to him and tells Billy he's improving. Watch the credits at the end; Mr. Jones is Chuck Jones of cartoon fame. 2. Billy's father is at an inventors convention or something like that. Robby the Robot shows up for a while and you can hear him saying some of his lines from Forbidden Planet, the first movie he appeared in. 3. Again, the convention. The first time we see Billy's father calling home, there's a machine behind him with a big rotating circle on it and a man sitting in it. The next time we see him, the machine is gone and people are looking around obviously trying to figure out what happened. The machine was the Time Machine. 4. A gremlin breaks the phone lines while Billy's trying to warn his mother. The gremlin says that famous line "Phone home." 5. In the drugstore by the stereos there's a record display for a hypnotism record, by "Dr. Dante". Joe Dante directs the film. And there must be others. It was great having a something in a scene bother me and then realizing what was wrong with it and the joke which had been played. I was surprised at how much I enjoyed the movie; any movie described as "CUTE" in ads is likely to turn me off, but the cuteness wasn't really sickly sweet most of the time. Even Gizmo, gremlin #1, rolls his eyes when he's described as being cute. - John ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 84 13:30:17 EDT From: Daniel Dern Subject: Ghostbusters Four Stars To: movies@BBNCCH.ARPA We highly recommend GHOSTBUSTERS for an overall fun time, good SFX. Slow beginning, picks up soon and stays in full gear. They're ready when you are. Also of note: the video on MTV for "Ghostbusters" theme song. Daniel P. Dern Linda P. Vigasin ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 84 7:30:33-PDT (Tue) From: ihnp4!mit-eddie!rh @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Ghostbusters (see it) Thought it was great. (*** out of ****) Now, to pick it apart... Probably Bill Murray's best role ever (mixing the incredible restraint he demonstrated in "Tootsie" with his usual craziness). Ackroyd (sp) was a little weak, undoubtedly making room for Murray. I was somewhat disappointed with Sigourney Weaver's role, which was too confused to be believable. The major problem I had with the movie was more or less the same thing: an uncomfortable (to me, anyway) mix of comedy and end-of-the-world theme. Call me old-fashioned. Anyway, despite the problems mentioned, I still enjoyed it quite a bit. Rick Moranis (of MacKenzie fame) gives a great performance as the nerdly accountant down the hall from SW. The SFX are pretty good, and quite a bit more numerous than I expected. After a number of line-feeds, I've excerpted a VERY FUNNY scene that, alas, had a bad word (referring to the male anatomy) in it (but it's one of the milder terms for the male anatomy). {Murray, Ackroyd, and Ramis are talking to the mayor after an EPA agent shut down part of their operation, cause the caca to hit the fan. Ackroyd says to the mayor: "Everything was going fine until 'Dick-less' here (pointing to the EPA guy) shut down the grid." (The guy tries to get at Ackroyd, but other people restrain him.) The mayor turns to Bill Murray and asks, "Is this true?" And Murray responds, "Yes, it is true, this man has no dick." (The guy really tries to get Murray, but is restrained.) Well, I thought it was really funny. Randwulf (Randy Haskins); Path= genrad!mit-eddie!rh ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jun 84 17:39:39-PDT (Thu) From: ihnp4!pegasus!naiman @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Gort! (what did he ask me to say?) >> Anyway, I asked Gort what "Klaatu Borada Nikto" meant, and he >> told me it was "Klaatu will tell you where the 3-in-One is if you >> don't destroy the world." I haven't seen the movie in a while. What does "3-in-one mean" ? ==> Ephrayim J. Naiman @ AT&T Information Systems Laboratories (201) 576-6259 Paths: [ihnp4, allegra, ...]!pegasus!naiman ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 84 9:23:11-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!dsd!avsdS!nelson @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Spoiler: Day the Earth Stood Still How can there be a spoiler for a movie that's almost 30 years old? Well, the movie was derived from a short story called "The Master", unknown author, unknown collection. Sorry! The gist of the story is: [spoiler] >> Ship lands, message is delivered, emissary is shot, robot takes him inside the ship for temporary revival (this last part I'm not certain of). The robot comes back out and some earther officials apologize to Gort, "We're sorry we killed your master". Gort replies, "You don't understand, I am the master", of course. Glenn Nelson Ampex Corp., Redwood City, CA ...!{nsc|hpda|megatest|amd70}!fortune!dsd!avsdS!nelson 415-367-2499 ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jun 84 14:51:00-PDT (Wed) From: hplabs!hp-pcd!hp-dcd!hpfclk!fritz @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Does anybody remember these ? To Jim Hester: I think your theories are all wrong, if you take into account the original story mentioned by Keiran Carroll. In this story, the human has just helped Gort to revivify (actually, reconstruct) the dead Klaatu, and as Gort is carrying Klaatu to the ship to leave, the dialog goes something like this... (note, Gort could speak in this story) Human: "Gort, when your master awakens, please tell him it was an accident." Gort: "You don't understand. *I* am the master." Obviously, things were changed around a bit for the movie! Still one of the all-time SF classics. Gary Fritz Hewlett-Packard Co Ft Collins, CO ihnp4!hpfcla!hpfclk!fritz ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jun 84 14:55:14-PDT (Wed) From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!wdl1!jrb @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Re: Dr. Who question - (nf) >> What is a jelly baby They're sort of like jelly beans (I think that they also bear a certain resemblance to Gummy-Bears). John R Blaker UUCP: ...!fortune!wdl1!jrb ARPA: jrb@FORD-WDL1 and blaker@FORD-WDL2 ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jun 84 10:32:02-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!clyde!watmath!utzoo!utcsrgv!utai!j From: enkin @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Dr. Who question A Jelly Baby is NOT a preserve made from human children, it is, however a sweet manufactured by Rowntree (in England). The sweets come in various unnatural colours and flavors, and are shaped into more or less human forms. Aside from their nutritional value, they can be used as a weapon (The Face of Evil). No TIME LORD should be without one. Michael Jenkin University of Toronto "My Parents went to Gallifrey, and all they got me was this crummy T-shirt" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jun 84 06:23 MST From: Deryk Barker Subject: Dr. Who. Jelly babies are really what they sound like - they are sweets about an inch long made from jelly and made in a roughly humanoid shape. They are very common in the UK and generally come in a mixture of the following colours: Red, Green, Yellow and Black. deryk. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 21-Jun SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #120 *** EOOH *** Date: 21 Jun 84 1628-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #120 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 21 Jun 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 120 Today's Topics: Books - Brust & "Wintermind" (2 msgs) & Peake & Oriental Sword and Sorcery (2 msgs) & Varley, Films - Williams/Courage Collaborations & The Stars My Destination & Dune (2 msgs) & Film Speed & Upcoming Films & "Enemy Mine" & Ghostbusters (2 msgs) & Gremlins, Miscellaneous - W&W ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 17 Jun 84 11:48:39-PDT (Sun) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!vax135!cornell!dietz @ From: Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Brust Books I just read "Yendi", Steven Brust's second book. I found it and the sequel/prequel "Jhereg" quite enjoyable, if somewhat lightweight. The plots are delightfully complicated. "Do you want her to turn you into a newt?" "I'll get better." cornell!dietz dietz@usc-ecla ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 84 7:43:45-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!akgua!edb @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Review of 'Wintermind' (no spoilers) I have just finished a book by Marvin Kaye and Parke Godwin entitled *Wintermind* which is fantastic. Chillingly realistic and enthralling. *Wintermind* is set in the far (far!) future after an invasion of the USA succeeds. The conquerors are later stranded and the society changes. Many factions form and this book is about the mingling of three of them - the City, the covens, and the "cowans". The City folk pursue knowledge, the "cowans" survive, and the covens have developed a telepathic group-consciousness. The story relates how individuals in the three groups react to change and culminates in a terrifying revelation about the very real differences between the City and the covens. I found this book very fine. The action is fast and you don't begin to realize that all is NOT well until rather late although the protagonists have their problems like normal folk. And by the time you realize that things are not right, the pace is swifter and it is impossible to stop. READ THIS BOOK!! Other comments? Emily Brooks ...ihnp4!akgua!edb ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 84 17:16:38-PDT (Tue) From: hplabs!saturn!ishizaki @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Review of 'Wintermind' (no spoilers) I also very much liked _Wintermind_ and read it several months ago, when it first appeared. I am anxiously awaiting the next book. note that _Wintermind_ is a SEQUEL to _The Masters of Solitude_ by the same authors (which I also liked very much). Audrey Ishizaki HPlabs Palo Alto, CA ...ucbvax!hplabs!ishizaki ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 84 12:15:40 EDT From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA Subject: Mervyn Peake A recent inquiry was posted re TITUS GROAN. This is indeed part of a trilogy. The full trilogy is: TITUS GROAN GORMENGHAST TITUS ALONE All three are by Mervyn Peake. They were available several years back from Ballantine/Del Rey. I'm not sure of their current print status... I recommend them highly, they are very moody and atmospheric books. My personal favorite is the middle book, Gormenghast.... Frederick Paul Kiesche III ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 84 14:01:15-PDT (Mon) From: decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-mrvax!ddb @ Ucb-Vax.arpa To: rneal@his-phoenix-multics.arpa Subject: Oriental Sword and Sorcery There is a set of three books by Jessica Salmonson, the Tomoe Gozen saga, which fits into this category. The books are currently in print in paperback. One of them is called The Golden Naginata. I'm afraid my library is at home, but since most bookstores shelve by author you should be able to locate them. Also, E. Hoffman Price has a book called The Devil Wives of Li Fong. Oh, if you've been turned off by Jessica Salmonson's other writings, it might still be worth looking at Tomoe Gozen. If you haven't read any of her other writings, don't worry about it. -- David Dyer-Bennet -- decwrl!rhea!mrvax!ddb@BERKELEY ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 84 9:03:46-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!tektronix From: !orca!mako!ariels @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Japanese swords and sorcery Just about everything WRITTEN by Jessica Amanda Salmonson is Japanese S&S. The Tomoe Gozen Saga: [edit comment: pretty good stuff, gets] currently including: [better as it goes along ] Tomoe Gozen The Golden Naginata The Thousand Shrine Warrior Swordwoman (or is it Swordswoman?) [edit comment: not as good as TG] There are also some Japanese and Oriental S&S stories in the Amazons books that JAS has edited. Most notably "The Woman Who Loved the Moon" by Elizabeth Lynn. Ariel Shattan ..!tektronix!mako!ariels ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 84 6:40:22-PDT (Mon) From: ihnp4!ihuxf!rls @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: DEMON (non-spoiler) Just putting in my vote for John Varley new book DEMON. If you enjoyed TITAN and WIZARD you won't be disappointed in DEMON. Rick Schieve ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 84 16:18:09-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!w From: anttaja @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: re: Williams/Courage Collaborations > Here's an interesting trivia question: On what movie(s) did > Alexander Courage (ST series and STTMP) and John Williams (SW > etc.) collaborate on the music?? The answer is, surprisingly enough, "Fiddler on the Roof." Not the primary music, of course, but they were credited under "orchestration" and other incidental music credits. But now, my curiosity is piqued (sp?). Anybody know of any other movies they collaborated on?? ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 84 12:49:48-PDT (Tue) From: hplabs!hao!ames-lm!barry @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: THE STARS MY DESTINATION on film I was the person who originally posted the thing about how nice this Bester book would be as a movie. Another netter, Alexander Burchell, added that it *is* being filmed, or at least that a script has been bought. I have one more followup; I heard from a friend recently, that it's John Carpenter who's doing the film. If this is true, I'm rather pleased. My own nominee for director had been Spielberg, but I'm willing to change my mind. I haven't liked all of Carpenter's movies (I'm more into SF than horror), but I've liked some of them (DARK STAR, THE THING) very much, and I think Carpenter's approach to films could be very well-suited to this story. Anyone heard about this, or have more information? Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA Electric Avenue: {dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames-lm!barry ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jun 84 12:44:10-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!whuxle!otto @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Dune: the poster Well, today I saw my first billboard advertisement for *Dune*. It is in Times Square, NY, and says D U N E "A world beyond your experience. beyond your imagination." COMING DURING CHRISTMAS TO A THEATER NEAR YOU. It shows a man and woman facing each other in the standard "just about to lean toward each other to kiss" position that Hollywood seems to like to use when they don't know what else to put on a poster. George Otto AT&T Bell Labs, Whippany ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jun 84 23:52:49-PDT (Sun) From: decvax!mcnc!duke!ucf-cs!giles @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Dune: the poster Times Square, New York??? I can see it now -- Paul M*dab (well, its been a while since I read the book) riding a giant sandworm, and a local artist's surgical addition of.... Sorry, this is a `PG' rated net. But you get the idea. Perhaps the newspaper ads will include the more interesting aspects of the movie. ave discordia bruce giles {decvax, duke}!ucf-cs!giles ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Jun 84 21:16:43 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: silent film speed While 16 fps is frequently quoted as "silent speed", and is the speed at which more discriminating theaters show silent films, silent films were actually shot and shown at variable speeds. They ran anywhere from 12fps to 20fps, depending on the cameraman and the type of scene. Since silent camera equipment was hand-cranked, this kind of variation was easy to do. Also, most silent projection equipment was hand-cranked, so the projection speed was also subject to variation. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Jun 84 21:26:15 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: trailers for "The Neverending Story" and "2010" They showed both of these trailers before "Gremlins" in the theater where I saw it. "The Neverending Story" looks very interesting, with a lot of bizarre creatures and imagery. If any flaw is apparent, it could only be that the film might end up overly cute. But then, Germans tend to mix in gloom and nastiness with their cuteness (read the original Brother's Grimm), so this may be OK. I was under the impression that it was shot in German, but there was some brief dialog in the trailer in English, and it was either shot that way or was a superior dubbing job. "2010" looks rather prosaic. All the old gang is back, and several new characters, of course, but the scenes shown can't touch the look of the original. Only to be expected. Lots of shots of black slabs tumbling through space, a somewhat hokier space child, HAL questioning orders again, a feeble attempt to summon back the image of Kubrick's shot of Dave reentering the airlock, and so on. It didn't excite me that much, but I don't have great expectations for this film anyway. The effects look OK, but they didn't show anything extraordinary. Maybe (probably) they aren't done yet. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 84 16:10:28 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: film version of "Enemy Mine" A while ago I posted a notice that Wolfgang Peterson (the German director of "Das Boot" and "The Neverending Story") had taken over as director of this film, but I didn't have any other information. The LA Times had an article about the film this Sunday. It is indeed adapted from the novella by Barry Longyear (spelling?). It stars Lou Gosset and Dennis Quaid. It was originally to be filmed in Iceland, but Peterson decided to film in Germany and one of the Canary Islands. The action takes place on an alien world, and Peterson was not satisfied with the way Iceland looked in the existing footage, which was scrapped. It's to be filmed in English, as, it turns out, was "The Neverending Story", although that too was shot in Germany and used a mostly German crew. (By the way, "The Neverending Story" apparently cost $26 million dollars to film, which makes it the most expensive German film ever. It's doing very well in Germany.) Peter Reiher ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 84 09:46:21 PDT (Mon) From: Sonia Schwartzberg Subject: Movie review: GHOSTBUSTERS Yes, this movie CAN be classed as Science Fiction/Fantasy with no problem for those of you who are wondering, and no, I don't intend to define either to support my claim. Micro-review: This movie is GOOD. It's funny, well done, colorful and exciting. Go see it. ** ** ** SPOILER WARNING ** ** ** (scene setting only -- no ending) Review: Once upon a time, in New York, in a University, there were three PHDs (or semi-PHDs) researching (or semi-researching) paranormal activities. This is the story of what happens when two events combine: they actually come face to face (yes, literally) with said phenomena, and they lose their research grant and get kicked out of the University. Now believers and out of work they decide to go into the business of catching ethereal critters for a living. Fortunately for (and unbeknownst to) our heroes, they have picked an ideal time to go into this business, as the spirit world is getting ready for a really big time and some V.I.S. big-wig named Zoog (Zool?). Sigourney Weaver (sp? also known as the heroine in "Alien) does a fine job as a strong, sensible musician suddenly tangled in the world of spirits. One might ask if she is becoming type cast in this kind of role, but one (me) might not care too much since she does such a good job. This is an extremely funny movie, the acting is great, the script is great, the special effects are perfectly adequate (as opposed to over-done) and if you accept some of the basic premises, the story holds together nicely. I came out of this one smiling and chuckling, which is a recommendation all by itself. This is a five-star movie. sonia@aids-unix ------------------------------ From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Date: 21 Jun 84 8:27:09 EDT Subject: GHOSTBUSTERS!! This is the best flick I have seen in years. Perhaps the best comedy since Stripes or Animal House. I'm glad that comedies are no longer low-budget by convention. They spent some bux on this and it shows--there are better ghosts here than I have ever seen on screen in my 32 years, and some unbelievably good lines, none of which I will spoil by repeating. Some good (and rather original) points: The government (EPA in particular) are the bad guys. Bout time. Fighting ghosts with portable cyclotrons. Very American, if more expensive than silver crucifixes. Art Deco as a haunted art form. Damn, I've *always* thought Art Deco buildings were weird. The Ghostbusters logo. Terrific! At the end of the film they show people in the relieved crowd selling Ghostbusters T-shirts with that logo on it. I want one! Where are they selling them in Reality??? A friend of mine thought this was a slasher movie (!!!) and wouldn't take her kids. Actually, it isn't the least bit scary, but some of the humor is a touch sexual and most of the best lines would fly right past a ten-year-old. But I would take my ten year old if I had a ten year old, which I certainly don't want. But take yours. And tell me where I can buy a Ghostbusters T-shirt. --Jeff Duntemann duntemann.wbst@xerox PS: Does anybody else think Sigourney Weaver would make a good Scirocco Jones if they ever did a film version of Titan/Wizard/Demon? ------------------------------ Date: Tue 19 Jun 84 12:25:06-EDT From: Michael Rubin Subject: "Gremlins" - short comment At last they've found the perfect audience for Disco music. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jun 84 10:34:54 PDT From: Barry Gold Subject: W&W I've run out of places to put the unofficial Wizards & Warriors continuation installments where people can FTP them. If you've been reading them by FTP, you should be aware that the latest one is #17. If you're missing some, send mail to me and tell me the latest installment you've seen. barry lcc!barry@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA {ihnp4,ucbvax,randvax}!ucla-cs!lcc!barry ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 21-Jun SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #121 *** EOOH *** Date: 21 Jun 84 1659-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #121 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 21 Jun 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 121 Today's Topics: ****** SPECIAL STAR TREK ISSUE ****** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 Aug 83 20:52:47 EDT From: Jaffe@RUTGERS Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!! The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the movie "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock". People who have not yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following messages. Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 13 Jun 1984 09:15:47-PDT From: butenhof%orac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Dave Butenhof, VAX-11 RSX AME) Subject: STiii > 3. How can Spock remember his last words to Kirk, if he > memory-dumped to McCoy *before* then? Easy -- I was visiting my parents over the past weekend and watched STII on my father's RCA video disk player. I noted with interest that the EXACT same conversation ("The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one; I have been and always will be, your friend") took place at the beginning of the movie! Therefore, Spock was not remembering the final conversation in the engine room, but rather, the EARLIER conversation. Oh, and in line with the now well-known "Remember" line before Spock killed himself (one wonders why they didn't just have him take the time to find a radiation suit before going inside, and save themselves the trouble of resurrecting him, by the way), I noticed after that, as Kirk, McCoy, and others watch the Genesis nebula from the bridge, McCoy comments "Spock will never be dead, as long as we remember him ..." or words closely to that effect. All in all, I liked the movie. I came out of the theatre feeling disappointed, but not quite certain of why. On reflection, and after reading all the messages over the net, I've decided that I liked it: I'd even like to see it again. I think it was a simpler plot line than STII. It was, after all, really only an epilogue to STII -- it simply tied up the remaining plot thread (Spock). There was less of the bold sense of adventure; they were rehashing old things, rather than doing new things. But the characterizations were good, particularly the primary ones, and more like the TV characters than in the other movies. In STII, after the horrendous STI, I felt that we could see our old friends again. With STIII, I feel that they once again walk among us. The old Saavik was indeed better (even though I think the difference is mostly attributable to writing and directing, rather than to the actress herself). I guess we all pay the price of Kirstie's greed. I think Chris Lloyd did well as a Klingon. Indeed, there were uncomfortable shades of Taxi drifting through out the theatre. The problem is not with the actor, but with the audience, however. We've let ourselves type-cast him; not his fault. I think it's too bad they killed him off. On the other hand, maybe he'll be replaced by a Klingon who's had his forehead cleaned and pressed recently ... As for the mess they all should be in at the end, it looks bad. STIV should be interesting. There are some good sides, however -- they prevented a war with the Klingons (had they succeeded in getting Genesis, they would surely have gone to war: that's quite a weapon). They saved the Federation the expense of dismantling (or whatever) an obsolete starship, etc. I have mixed emotions about the Excelsior class ship ... it looks funny, and certainly is not as sleek as the Enterprise; but I'll reserve judgment for now. We'll see, we'll see ... December 85 or bust! /dave orac::butenhof (enet) decwrl!rhea!orac!butenhof (the cold and cruel world outside) (no company name or address 'cause we've been told not to! so who really cares, anyway?) ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 84 23:35:39-PDT (Mon) From: decvax!dartvax!johnc @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: [Spoiler, by the way] Re: Early Review of Star Trek III > What was saavik (sp) doing with young Spock? I believe that he was going through something called "pon farr" (sp) which is probably analogous to puberty in humans, but I can't be certain. After all, what human could be certain about what's happening in a green blooded vulcan's body? --johnc ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 14 Jun 1984 13:27:17-PDT From: kovner%regina.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: SPOCK'S BLOOD > I have often wondered if the crew of the Enterprise was color > blind... They must have been (as were the cameras): Spock would have been tinted green (or blue) just as our skin is tinted pink because of our blood. Steve Kovner (I dont know how to route TO the DEC Engineering net; my address on it is: REGINA::KOVNER ) ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 84 21:29:08-PDT (Tue) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!whuxle!mit-eddie!barmar @ From: Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Star Trek III (what else? -- contains SPOILERS & Subject: QUESTIONS) rlr@pyuxn.UUCP writes: > 1. I was kind of disappointed that T'Pao didn't call Spock > "Tspoke" the way she did in "Amok Time". That's because it wasn't T'Pau. The name of the priestess in STIII was T'Lon. Barry Margolin ARPA: barmar@MIT-Multics UUCP: ..!genrad!mit-eddie!barmar ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 84 21:04:29-PDT (Tue) From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd70!dual!proper!gam @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Star Trek III (non-spoiler, context dependent) I took it as: "The needs of the One outweigh the needs of the many." ... but I'm a pretty mystical guy. I agree with Rich, this was a fine TV episode that happens to be a feature length film. That's all I ever expect, and I'm never disappointed. (Well, the first one WAS boring). And yes, there were lots of inconsistencies and illogical things and historical inaccuracies. Who cares? ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jun 84 14:55:01-PDT (Wed) From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!wdl1!jrb @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Re: [Spoiler, by the way] Re: Early - (nf) >From _Amok_Time_ Pon Farr - The time of mating It occurs every 7th year from puberty on. Young spock was going through his 'first' pon farr. It strips Vulcans of their rationality. Understandably, the Vulcans don't like to talk about it. Let's here it for _Star_Trek_IV:_The_Paternity_Suit_!!! John R Blaker UUCP: ...!fortune!wdl1!jrb ARPA: jrb@FORD-WDL1 and blaker@FORD-WDL2 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jun 84 10:05:54 EDT From: Jon McCombie Subject: ST III question (spoiler) Over the weekend, I saw ST II on cable. Sure 'nuff, just before Spock takes the final plunge, he neck-grips McCoy and says "remember..." (read mind-meld/soul-dump). Funny, though, I don't remember seeing that scene when I first saw ST II. Was that scene there in the original, or did they edit it into recent prints for consistency's sake? Jon ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 1984 07:46:07 PDT From: CARROLL@USC-ISIB Subject: ST3 (no spoiler) RE: Bird of Prey- The original Bird of Prey ship was a Romulan design. It was perhaps an old design from the hundred-year old human-Rom wars. For whatever reason, the Romulans later used Klingon designed (built?) cruisers of the type we are all familiar with. RE: Enterprise recordings- I've always marveled at the technology it would take for those monitors to know when to automatically zoom-in on Kirk's face at the most dramatic moment. This happens in lots of other shows also. Some of those cameras also tilt and pan to keep the subject always centered on the screen. Isn't science wonderful? ------------------------------ Date: Mon 18 Jun 84 14:09:53-EDT From: Michael Rubin Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #118 Was Captain Styles of the Excelsior perhaps Lieutenant Styles from the episode (forget the title) in which they first meet the Romulans? He was the fellow who hated Romulans because his grandfather had been in the First Romulan War, and who didn't trust Spock's pointy ears especially when they got the Romulans on video. According to the book, the computer starts permanent video recordings in critical areas whenever there is a red alert, and otherwise keeps a tape loop of a few minutes' duration. You may have noticed my flaming earlier about the wonderful Saavik character in the ST2 and ST3 books as opposed to the lousy portrayal in the films. I did a little introspecting and noticed I was reacting to Saavik in about the same way that female fans have traditionally reacted to Spock... Fascinating. `:-) Why don't they let Vonda McIntyre write the movies and send Harve Bennett off to do publicity or something? ------------------------------ Date: Mon 18 Jun 84 11:36:42-EDT From: Wang Zeep Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #118 I think the comment about "The Menagerie" episode (detailed film records aren't kept) was made because Spock's footage included scenes in the Captain's bedroom, etc. Personally, I like the flight recorder idea, although wasn't there an episode where the record was tampered with? Wang ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 84 12:23:23 EDT From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA Subject: STIII: The Search... A few possible explanations... Re--Klingons and way they look different from those in the television series and ST:TMP... If you consult either John M. Ford's (excellent) THE FINAL REFLECTION (Pocket Books), or the KLINGONS supplment for STAR TREK: THE ROLE-PLAYING GAME, you will learn that there are several "Klingon" races. The three most common are the Imperial Klingon Race (those seen in the first movie), and the various Romulan-Klingon Fusions and Human-Klingon Fusions. These Fusions were created in order to allow the Klingons to interact with various races...I recommend the Ford book at the very least--it is NOT a ST Kirk, etc. novel, it is a novel that takes place in the ST universe, very good... Re--Running a Heavy Cruiser with five people...The ship was being re-worked by Scotty, so that it was mostly automatic. You may have noticed that the automatic controls could only do things such as normal space navigation. When the Enterprise went into battle, the system became rapidly overloaded (Scotty made comments to this effect...)... Re--Why a Bird? I saw what was reportedly a earlier version of the STIII script. In this, the Klingons were NOT Klingons, but Romulans. If you want to look at it one way, it is possible that they changed the Romulans to Klingons, but forgot to change the name of the ship... I have come up with an alternative suggestion. It is established in the TV series that the Romulans and the Klingons have a technology exchange program going (See THE ENTERPRISE INCIDENT, in which we see Klingon ships manned by the Romulans, with cloaking devices). It is possible that the exchange goes both ways, with the Klingons getting the cloaking devices--and just possibly, Romulan ships...hence, the name, Bird-of-Prey... Incidentally, in gaming terms (for STAR TREK: THE ROLE-PLAYING GAME, as well as STAR FLEET BATTLES and FEDERATION SPACE) "Bird-of-Prey" is a "generic" name of a class of ships... More comments as they burble up through the brain... Frederick Paul Kiesche III ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jun 84 17:52:00-PDT (Wed) From: ucbcad!kalash @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: SPOCK'S BLOOD > They must have been (as were the cameras): Spock would have been > tinted green (or blue) just as our skin is tinted pink because of > our blood Then could somebody please tell me what Jesse Jackson's blood is based on? As he isn't pink, it must not be iron. Joe Kalash kalash@berkeley ucbvax!kalash ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jun 84 19:21:18-PDT (Sun) From: ihnp4!houxm!mhuxl!cbosgd!cbscc!cbneb!adm @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: SPOCK'S BLOOD >> I have often wondered if the crew of the Enterprise was color >> blind... > They must have been (as were the cameras): Spock would have been > tinted green (or blue) just as our skin is tinted pink because of > our blood Unless, of course, Vulcan skin is not translucent, but opaque and colored pink!! ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 21 Jun 1984 11:31:47-PDT From: lewis%spider.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Suford Lewis) Subject: Star Trek; The Excelsior I haven't looked into the American Heritage Dictionary recently, but SURELY it gives the wood chips/packing material as the second definition? Excelsior is the comparative form of the Latin adjective excelsis, which we should all recognize from "Gloria in Excelsis" (a phrase impossible to avoid independent of your religion). It thus means higher, moreexcellent [D (grumble) more excellent, better, nobler. Good stuff like that. Is the American Heritage the one Nero Wolfe was burning page by page because it claimed that "infer" and "imply" were equivalent? O tempora, O mores. (O the tempura, O the morels) O DI immortales! - Suford ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 24-Jun SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #122 *** EOOH *** Date: 24 Jun 84 0121-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #122 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 24 Jun 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 122 Today's Topics: Books - Wodehouse Stories in F&SF (3 msgs) & Oriental Sword and Sorcery Films - The Day the Earth Stood Still (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 18 Jun 84 15:47 EDT From: Jonathan Ostrowsky Subject: Wodehouse stories in F&SF Re the following, from Vol. 9, #117: From: ihnp4!houxm!houxa!4375jlf @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Early F&SF Magazines For Sale For Sale: The Magazine of Fantasy, Vol.1 No.1 (Fall '49) and Vol.1 No.3 (Summer '50) (This was the progenitor of F&SF Mag.) Fantasy & Science Fiction: Dec. '50, Dec. '51 Fantasy & Science Fiction: complete years; '52, '53, '54, '55, '56, '58, '59, '61, '62, '63, '64. Also Jan. & Feb. '65. All in excellent condition. In re-reading these over the past couple of years, I am amazed at how much of what we now think of as "classic" SF was first printed in F&SF. Other good stuff too--like the stories that were later turned into "Wodehouse Playhouse" on public TV. I find it very hard to believe that Wodehouse ever published anything in F&SF. Can the sender of this ad, or anyone else, supply story titles and dates as confirmation of this claim? Jonathan Ostrowsky jo%scrc-vixen@mit-mc ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 84 7:37:56-PDT (Wed) From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!hogpd!jrrt @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Wodehouse stories in F&SF I'm the guy who purchased the magazines. On at least one cover, I noticed Wodehouse's name. I'll check the magazines and get a specific listing of stories, but it will take a few days (there are over 130 magazines, and my free time is scarce). Doesn't there exist some form of reference that lists all SF authors (as of such-and-such a date), their stories, and the place the stories where published? Rob Mitchell {allegra,ihnp4,pegasus}!hogpd!jrrt ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jun 84 1:45:25-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd70!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian @ From: Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Wodehouse in F&SF > From: Jonathan Ostrowsky > I find it very hard to believe that Wodehouse ever published > anything in F&SF. Can the sender of this ad, or anyone else, > supply story titles and dates as confirmation of this claim? How about: Oct 52 "Unpleasantness at Bludleigh Court" Jun 55 "A Slice of Life" Dec 55 "Mulliner's Buck-U-Uppo" Dec 58 "Honeysuckle Cottage" plus "Ways to Get a Gal" in DREAM WORLD, Feb 57 These are most likely reprints from some other source. F&SF was fond of this sort of thing in the 50's. Among other such "unlikely" authors are: Truman Capote, Lewis Carroll, Leslie Charteris (5 sf Saint stories --- there is a recent collection of all of the short sf Saint stories in hardcover, THE FANTASIC SAINT), Anton Chekhov, Agatha Christie, Daniel Defoe, Charles Dickens, Allen Drury, C.S. Forester, Robert Graves, Edward Everett Hale, Washington Irving, Shirley Jackson, C.S. Lewis, Jack London. Ogden Nash, Robert Nathan, Edgar Allen Poe, Saki, James Thur- ber, Mark Twain, Jules Verne, Gore Vidal, Cornell Wollrich, and Oscar Wilde. Some of these authors also had stories in other sf magazines. Other magazines also had the following: Alan Arkin, Steven Vincent Benet, Al Capp, Sid Caesar, Guy deMaupassant, Franz Kafka, Rudyard Kipling, Madeleine L'Engle, Alexandre Pushkin, Ayn Rand, William Shakespeare (!), and Tennessee Williams. The period I examined for the above is 1951-1965, using THE INDEX TO THE SCIENCE FICTION MAGAZINES, 1951-1965 by Erwin S. Strauss and THE INDEX TO THE SCIENCE FICTION MAGAZINES, 1951- 1965 by Norman Metcalf. F&SF continues to feature reprints from off-the-beaten-orbit authors, a recent one that I can remember off-hand is a Woody Allen story from THE NEW YORKER about 5 years ago. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}! decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my Business"> ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 84 4:01:49-PDT (Tue) From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd70!dual!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyaji From: an @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: re: Oriental Sword-&-Sorcery Here are some oriental fantasy novels that I know about. This list is most likely woefully incomplete, but it's a start. Since I'm not sure what borders you draw in defining "sword and sorcery novels set in the orient", there are probably some books in this list that outside the scope of what you want. I included some commentary, so that you may try to decide for yourself. All of the books mentioned are in paperback unless otherwise noted. A "*" before a title means that the paperback is a reprint of a hardcover, and your library may have the latter if you can't find the former in a bookstore. Guest, Lynn * THE SWORD OF HACHIMAN (Zebra, 1981) Howard, Robert E. THE LOST VALLEY OF ISKANDER (Berkley, 197?) (Some of Howard's books are adventure fantasy set in India or the Middle East, the most obvious one being the one above. It is probably out of print, though it may still be in print under either the Ace or Berkley imprints.) Lukeman, Tim KOREN (Ace, 198?) (This is a sequel to RAJAN. Or is it the other way around? Got me; I don't have either of them.) Lupoff, Richard * SWORD OF THE DEMON (Avon, 1978) Mundy, Talbot (A good many of Mundy's novels are adventure with varied amounts of the supernatural thrown in. They are not strictly sword & sorcery, though if you like Robert E. Howard's fiction, you'll probably like Mundy's as well. Most of his books are out of print, very few have been in recent (last 15 years or so) paperback. You may find some of them in libraries. The following books take place in early 20th Century India and Tibet; some border on science fiction.) CAVES OF TERROR THE DEVIL'S GUARD (Avon, 1969) FULL MOON JIMGRIM (Avon, 1969) KING--OF THE KHYBER RIFLES (Donald M. Grant, 197?) (This is a small press hardcover, still in print) THE NINE UNKNOWN (Avon, 1969) OLD UGLY FACE OM, THE SECRET OF ABHOR VALLEY (Avon, 1969; Carroll & Graf, 1984) Page, Norvell FLAME WINDS (Berkley, 1967) SONS OF THE BEAR GOD (Berkley, 1969) (These have been reprinted since, though I can't recall exactly when. Even the reprints are out of print, though. S&S in the Howard tradition. The hero of both is Prester John.) Price, E. Hoffmann THE DEVIL WIVES OF LI FONG (Del Rey, 1979) THE JADE ENCHANTRESS (Del Rey, 1982) (These are both supernatural fantasies set in ancient China) Rypel, T. C. DEATHWIND OF VEDUN (Zebra, 1982) SAMURAI STEEL (Zebra, 1982) SAMURAI COMBAT (Zebra, 1983) (These are the three books in the "Gonji" series. They don't take place in the orient, but they are the adven- tures of a samurai warrior in medieval Europe.) Salmonson, Jessica Amanda TOMOE GOZEN (Ace, 1981) THE GOLDEN NAGINATA (Ace, 1982) THOUSAND SHRINE WARRIOR (Ace, 1984) (These are the three books in the "Tomoe Gozen" series. They take place in an alternate-Earth Japan, Naipon.) THE SWORDSWOMAN (Tor, 1982) (Not really oriental s&s, but it is drawn from Japanese *kendo*.) Schmidt, Dennis WAY-FARER (Ace, 1978) KENSHO (Ace, 1979) SATORI (Ace, 1981) (These are actually science fiction, but the same comment about THE SWORDSWOMAN applies here.) Yarbro, Chelsea Quinn * PATH OF THE ECLIPSE (NAL-Signet, 1982) (The adventures of the vampire Saint-Germain in 13th Century Mongolia.) --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my Business"> ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 84 21:31:19 PDT (Mon) To: hplabs!hp-pcd!hp-dcd!hpfclk!fritz@Ucb-Vax Subject: Re: Does anybody remember these ? From: "Jim Hester" > To Jim Hester: I think your theories are all wrong, if you > take into account the original story mentioned by Keiran > Carroll. In this story, the human has just helped Gort to > revivify (actually, reconstruct) the dead Klaatu, and as Gort > is carrying Klaatu to the ship to leave, the dialog goes > something like this... (note, Gort could speak in this > story) > Human: "Gort, when your master awakens, please tell him it > was an accident." > Gort: "You don't understand. *I* am the master." > Obviously, things were changed around a bit for the movie! > Still one of the all-time SF classics. If you take the short story into account, the question of the translation is meaningless, since it did not exist in the story. I am well aware of the story: you might remember I commented on the bboard that although I considered the plot of the movie better, the story was worth reading, since it was entirely different. The ONLY similarity between the two is a spaceship, a robot, and a man with the same name that gets shot by Earthlings. That's exactly the problem: the story is NO authority, since it has nothing to do with the plot of the movie. I have a copy of the story. If it was any help, I would have used it. My guesses were based only on the movie. First, there have been enough people sending in "something like this"s: let's set the record straight. The short story was called "Farewell to the Master", written by Harry Bates. It was printed by Street & Smith, Inc., publishers of "Astounding Stories". The issue(s) are not given, but S & S has copywrites for the story dated 1939, 1940, 1942, and 1943. My copy is in the anthology "Adventures in Time and Space," edited by Healy and McComas and printed (as of my copy) 8 times between 1946 and 1954. I was wrong about the robot's name, it was Gnut. The end passage mentioned by so many is as follows (I have no cumpunctions about spoilers since the beans have already been spilled): Of all the things Cliff had wanted to say to Klaatu, one remained imperatively present in his mind. Now, as the green metal robot stood framed in the great green ship, (he siezed his chance. "Gnut," he said earnestly, holding carefully to the limp body in his arms, "you must do one thing for me. Listen carefully. I want you to tell your master - the master yet to come - that what happened to the first Klaatu was an accident, for which all Earth is immeasurably sorry. Will you do that?" "I have known it," the robot answered gently. But will you promise to tell your master - just those words - as soon as he is arrived?" "You misunderstand," said Gnut, still gently, and quietly spoke four more words. As Cliff heard them a mist passed over his eyes and his body went numb. As he recovered and his eyes came back to focus he saw the great ship disappear. It just suddenly was not there any more. He fell back a step or two. In his ears, like great bells, rang Gnut's last words. Never, never was he to disclose them till the day he came to die. "You misunderstand," the mighty robot had said. "I am the master." So much for the story, back to the movie. The only thing that most people agree on is that Gort consulted the screen in the ship in response to the message. Most also agree that he was about to destroy the planet before he received the message. Therefore the message was something that (at least temporarily) overrode Gort's first reflex (Klaatu told the girl that the robots AUTOMATICALLY act against any and all aggressors). The two standard guesses concerning the message are that it was a plea for help or a suggestion (not order, the Robot Police Force might listen to suggestions, but Klaatu specifically said that in matters of aggression they were all-powerful and under no direction but their own) to consult others (or the ship's computer?) before acting. My only addition was that unless Klaatu's language packed a LOT into a small space, I thought it possible that the message was something short, just to get the robot thinking and interrupt it's attack reflex long enough for it to recognize alternatives. This message might have been a quote of some sort of prime directive of peace before war or some other short message that might be meaningless to Earthlings who don't know the complete history and relationship between the Robots and Galactics. My 'theory' as you call it contradicts the standard assumptions only in the literal translation of the message. The spirit (and effect) of the message is the same in either case, and it's unlikely that the writers had a much better idea of the literal translation. Since I don't believe there is any 'correct' (and thus any 'incorrect') answer, I speculate freely on possibilities. That theory appeals to me, since it explains the terseness of the message in light of the assumed intentions of the robot. I would never insist that I am right or that any theory that does not contradict the known facts is wrong. I was merely repeating common assumptions and adding a comment of my own. If anyone gets a real interview with someone in the know, PASS IT ON! All I know offhand is that Klaatu was Michael Renne and Gort was the (then) bellboy of Grauman's Chinese Restaurant. The people in charge of casting were having a hard time finding somebody right for Gort, and went out for lunch. They hired him on the spot. ------------------------------ Date: Tue 19 Jun 84 02:33:37-EDT From: LINDSAY%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA Subject: Klaatu "The Day the Earth Stood Still" is based on "Farewell to the Master", by Harry Bates. My copy of "Adventures in Time and Space" (Bantam, 1946) lists it as Copyright 1939. Bates was the founding editor of "Astounding Stories of Super-Science" (1930..), quickly renamed "Astounding Stories". It is considered the first true pulp SF magazine, given the literary standards of the Gernsback magazines. The story stands up well, barring lines like "[the spaceship] had been destroyed when it was pulled into the sun." Of course, the visitor used "the universal gesture of peace", before saying his only line into the television (!) cameras: "I am Klaatu, and this is Gnut." **SPOILER** The visitor is then killed, and Gnut eventually recreates him: "As you must know, a given body makes a characteristic sound. He constructed an apparatus which reversed the recording process, and from the given sound made the characteristic body." Anyone out there with a collection of Queen albums might like to dig out the one showing a remorseful robot with blood on its hand. The art is adapted from an old Kelly Freas, and the robot is Gnut. Don Lindsay ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 27-Jun SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #123 *** EOOH *** Date: 27 Jun 84 1124-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #123 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 27 Jun 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 123 Today's Topics: Art - Sf artwork (2 msgs), Books - Gibson (4 msgs) & Peake (2 msgs) & Wolfe, Films - Sigourney Weaver (4 msgs) & Ghostbusters & The Day the Earth Stood Still & Dune & The Stars My Destination Miscellaneous - How to Get Rich ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 25 Jun 84 16:49 EDT From: Denber.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Subject: SF Artwork "Anyone out there with a collection of Queen albums might like to dig out the one showing a remorseful robot with blood on its hand. The art is adapted from an old Kelly Freas, and the robot is Gnut." The illustration is from the cover of Astounding Science Fiction, Oct. 1953 (although the story named on the cover is "The Gulf Between", by Tom Godwin). This and nine other cover illustrations are reproduced in a strange book called "The Compleat Computer", whose subtitle continues: "being a compendium of tales of the amazing & marvelous, poetry, informative news items, articles for edification and enjoyment, cartoons plus many other illustrations with a special section of SPLENDIFEROUS SCIENCE FICTION ART in full color", Dennie Van Tassel, ed., SRA, 1976, ISBN 0-574-21060-1. It's organized along the lines of Ted Nelson's famous "Computer Lib/Dream Machines". Some of it is amusing for lines like "And, similarly, many computers are now virtually desk-top machines. How small will they get?". (I vaguely recall bringing this up here a few years ago (or maybe it's just deja-vu (this comment homage to Lisp))). Anyway, besides Gnut, they have "The Doom from Planet 4" by Jack Williamson (Astounding Stories, July, 1932) featuring a spider-like robot shining a green light on a naked man (!) while a Tesla coil-type power station glows eerily on a cliff in the background. My favorite though is "Waldo" (Astounding, Aug. 1942 (25 cents)) showing a huge wheeled two-armed robot looming over a man in the foreground. The robot is evidently performing some sort of welding operation with sparks flying. The position of its arms mimic exactly the man's. "GoodBYE, Dr. Jones! (har har har)" - Michel ------------------------------ Date: Tue 26 Jun 84 10:35:54-EDT From: JACOB@CMU-CS-C.ARPA Subject: Queens/ASF cover There IS a picture of a robot holding a 'broken' human which was both a Queens album cover and an ASF cover. However, I am almost certain that the story was NOT "Farewell to the Master". Unfortunately, I can't look it up 'cause my ASF collection is conspicuously elsewhere. I'm also not so sure that Kelly Freas drew it, but it's possible. ~Jacob Butcher jacob@cmu-cs-c.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jun 84 0:14:11-PDT (Thu) From: ucbcad!tektronix!tekchips!vice!keithl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Neuromancer Neuromancer, William Gibson, Ace Specials, $2.95 ppb. This book seems like a three way cross between Bladerunner (the movie), True Names by Vinge, and the Ophiuchi Hotline by Varley. The book follows protagonist Case from the criminal underworld of Chiba City, Japan, to the space habitat Villa Straylight. He is a computer "cowboy", whose job is to crack computer systems and steal data. The world he works in, cyberspace, is reminiscent of the artificial world in True Names, but a lot more deadly. The scenery is gloomy, violent, and high-tech. The characters are burned out, drug-ridden, and jaded. The computers are Machiavellian. Authority appears (briefly) in the form of the Turing police, who work to destroy artificial intelligences that grow beyond certain bounds. The love interest is Molly, a surgically modified mercenary, or "razorgirl". I won't recommend this wholeheartedly, because it is rather strange, downbeat, and doesn't have much of an ending. BUT, the language is good, the concepts are fascinating, and the imagery is splendid. Very realistic extrapolation. Worth checking out if you can handle a little gloom. Keith Lofstrom uucp:{ucbvax,decvax,chico,pur-ee,cbosg,ihnss}!tektronix!vice!keithl CSnet: keithl@tek ARPAnet:keithl.tek@rand-relay ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jun 84 12:25:10-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!brucec @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Neromancer I bought "Neuromancer" because I was curious to see if the book carried the ideas in "True Names" any further. I didn't think that the concept of cyberspace was at all well developed or described (though it would probably look all right in a movie, in fact it reminded me of the arcology cityscape of "Bladerunner"), so I was somewhat disappointed. Once I got over the disappointment at the book being something other than what it was hyped up to be, and what I'd hoped it was, though, I found it generally good reading. Keith Lofstrom is right, it is very gloomy, and rather anti-climactic, but the subcultures which are shown are well-visualized and the characters are more than just cardboard (even the AI is believable, if not comprehensible). Not great, but worth reading. Incidently, does anyone out there remember a series of short stories published in Amazing (or maybe Fantastic (great magazine titles, no?)) in the early '70s, based on a character by the name of Queer Sal? The tone (hi-tech punk) and the mood (gloom and doom) of "Neuromancer" remind me of them. Bruce Cohen UUCP: ...!tektronix!orca!brucec CSNET: orca!brucec@tektronix ARPA: orca!brucec.tektronix@rand-relay USMail: M/S 61-183 Tektronix, Inc. P.O. Box 1000 Wilsonville, OR 97070 ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jun 84 11:23:58-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!wdl1!jrb @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Neuromancer - (nf) I disagree about the gloom. I do think that the extrapolation is very good, not to say extremely likely. I would recommend it without reservation. John R Blaker UUCP: ...!fortune!wdl1!jrb ARPA: jrb@FORD-WDL1 and blaker@FORD-WDL2 ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 84 12:05:27-PDT (Sun) From: ihnp4!fortune!rpw3 @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Neuromancer - (nf) +--------------- | Neuromancer, William Gibson, Ace Specials, $2.95 ppb. | | This book seems like a three way cross between Bladerunner (the | movie), True Names by Vinge, and the Ophiuchi Hotline by Varley. +--------------- Don't forget "Coils", by Zelazny & Saberhagen, or "Fireship" by Joan Vinge. "Neuromancer" had a fairly convincing social milieu, a good deal more complex than "Fireship" (although therefore not as elegant), and the technology is more convincing than the (totally unjustified) various one-off ESPs of "Coils". Rob Warnock UUCP:{ihnp4,ucbvax!amd70,hpda,harpo,sri-unix,allegra}!fortune!rpw3 DDD: (415)595-8444 USPS: Fortune Systems Corp, 101 Twin Dolphin Drive, Redwood City, CA 94065 ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jun 84 1:45:21-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!lanl-a!unm-cvax!janney @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Mervyn Peake As long as we're discussing Mervyn Peake, I'd like to mention that there are two different versions of the last book Titus Alone, one more incomplete than the other. Peake intended to write 5 or 6 books, but he suffered a stroke and was unable to complete Titus Alone. The Ballantine edition, the one most generally available in this country, is Peake's typewritten first draft. There is another version, published by Penguin in England and recently available in hardcover in the US, that incorporates his hand- written revisions to the first draft. You can recognize this version because it has a preface by Langdon Jones. It doesn't add a lot of new material but it is much more coherent. Good stuff. ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jun 84 12:08:45 PDT From: hiller.pa@XEROX.ARPA Subject: responses to a variety of msgs. I also wish to put in a plug for TITUS GROAN, GORMENGHAST, TITUS ALONE. They are kind of heavy reading, but the language weaves an incredible, intricate texture into the book that is quite memorable. I was very much there when places were described, not just knowing where the characters were, but could see and feel and sense the place. Marty ------------------------------ From: Steve Platt Subject: book to read Date: Sun, 24 Jun 84 00:08 EDT If you haven't read it, go read Tom Wolfe's "The Right Stuff". Even if you saw the movie. A recent conversation: NM: What science fiction are you reading *now*? me: It's not science fiction. On second thought, maybe it is, except for the facts. -steve ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jun 84 12:08:45 PDT From: hiller.pa@XEROX.ARPA Subject: responses to a variety of msgs. Re: "PS: Does anybody else think Sigourney Weaver would make a good Scirocco Jones if they ever did a film version of Titan/Wizard/Demon?" Yes. Might be a little too weak, though. Marty ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jun 84 15:43 PDT From: Tom Perrine Subject: Sigourney Weaver Recently Jeff Duntemann wrote: >PS: Does anybody else think Sigourney Weaver would make a good >Scirocco Jones if they ever did a film version of >Titan/Wizard/Demon? Yes!! All the time I was watching Alien, Ghostbusters and other movies she was in, I was trying to figure out who she reminded me of. My mental image of Scirocco Jones. -- Tom Perrine tom@logicon.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 22 Jun 1984 21:04:04-PDT From: saunders%prancr.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: Sigourney Weaver Jones > PS: Does anybody else think Sigourney Weaver would make a good > Scirocco Jones if they ever did a film version of > Titan/Wizard/Demon? She's really too good-looking, and I can't see her playing a drunken Cirrocco. And can you see her breaking in on Robin and Chris (in Wizard)? My choice is Betty Thomas of Hill Street Blues (with her hair dyed dark?). ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jun 84 09:02:22 PDT (Friday) From: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: GHOSTBUSTERS!! Cc: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA "PS: Does anybody else think Sigourney Weaver would make a good Scirocco Jones if they ever did a film version of Titan/Wizard/Demon?" I don't know if you're offering an insult to Sigourney (since Scirocco is pretty ugly) or a compliment (since Sigourney is a good actress, despite the fact that she hasn't had a good role since "Alien"). If Sigourney were to break her nose, she could pass as Scirocco. I don't know if she would go for the dykish stuff though. Perry ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 84 13:44:43-PDT (Tue) From: ihnp4!cbosgd!bsw @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Movie review: GHOSTBUSTERS Oopps, *******SPOILER********* Ok, now that that is taken care of, I got the impression that the Ghostbusters caused Zool and Vic whatever plus Gozer(sp?BTW, what is the full name of Vic (the other dog-gatekeeper?)) to pop up because they didn't enjoy having ghosts boxed up in a toaster. Or is it just me?? Ben Walls ...cbosgd!bsw ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 84 1:49:29-PDT (Tue) From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd70!dual!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyaji From: an @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL source The story from which was derived THE DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL was "Farewell to the Master" by Harry Bates. It first appeared in the October 1940 issue of ASTOUNDING SCIENCE FICTION. So far as I know, it's appeared in only three anthologies since then: ADVENTURES IN TIME AND SPACE (edited by Raymond J. Healy and J. Francis McComas) THE ASTOUNDING-ANALOG READER, VOLUME ONE (edited by Harry Harrison and Brian W. Aldiss) THEY CAME FROM OUTER SPACE (edited by Jim Wynorski) The last of those is a very interesting anthology. It reprints sf stories that were used as bases for movies. In addition to "Farewell to the Master", it includes "The Sentinel" by Arthur C. Clarke (2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY); "Who Goes There?" by John W. Campbell, Jr. (THE THING); "A Boy and His Dog" by Harlan Ellison; "The Fly" by George Langelaan, et al. By the way, in "Farewell to the Master", the robot's name is Gnut, rather than Gort. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard, MA) UUCP:{decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}! decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my Business"> ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jun 84 10:15:37 EDT From: SHERMAN@RU-BLUE.ARPA Subject: Dune trailer The preview to "Dune" is out in the theaters. Simply put, it looks terrific! Scenes include Harkonnen (spelling approx!) levitating about, Sting running around in his blue Calvin Klein underwear, Paul negating the homer, and the Fremen looking militant. The accent was clearly on action, and the sets look terrific. With any bit of luck, we have a fantastic film to look forward to this December!! *Steve* P.S. The rotoscoping of the `blue eyes' was not included in any of the preview footage. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 84 17:14 PDT From: Michael Wahrman Subject: re: THE STARS MY DESTINATION on film Another netter, Alexander Burchell, added that it *is* being filmed, or at least that a script has been bought. I have one more followup; I heard from a friend recently, that it's John Carpenter who's doing the film. If this is true, I'm rather pleased. Anyone heard about this, or have more information? Kenn Barry According to the latest "Hollywood Reported" Film Production listing, John Carpenter is working on STARMAN, produced by Michael Douglas. There is no mention of TSMD anywhere, in "FILMPRODUCTION" or "PICTURESINPREPARATION". It is very possible that TSMD is in pre-production or is being 'developed' at one of the various studios. The book is very visual and could make a great adventure film. Other films currently in production, out of England: "Legend", directed by Ridley Scott (was originally titled "Legends out of Darkness" according to a friend at EEG during Bladerunner). "Legend" has Tim Curry listed in the cast. "Morons from Outer Space" (no comment) "OZ", produced by Gary Kurtz. Sorry about TSMD, it is probably not being filmed anywhere at this time. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jun 84 19:39:51-PDT (Sun) From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!pegasus!lzmi!psc @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Time travel riches - 1787 money The very first time I read the "bring the collectable coins forward" theory was in (of all places) a Scrooge McDuck comic. They brought up the issue of "hey, this is brand new", but it was considered a feature, not a bug. (This magazine had a wealth of good SF ideas in it.) So let's cross the rubicon; where *would* you cache your cash for a few hundred years? It would help if your "time belt" (ala "The Man Who Folded Himself") is also a teleport device; any recently dug up cavern or tomb would do, as would catacombs of old museums. Anyone who suggests safe deposit boxes doesn't remember what the average life expectancy was for banks before FDIC. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 27-Jun SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #124 *** EOOH *** Date: 27 Jun 84 1146-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #124 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 27 Jun 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 124 Today's Topics: Books - Llewellyn & Vertex (2 msgs) & Story Request & Japanese Swords and Sorcery & Galileo & Wodehouse in F&SF, Films - Filmex (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 26 Jun 84 12:50:33 PDT From: Rich Wales Subject: "Salvage and Destroy" by Edward Llewellyn I recently read a moderately interesting SF book: Llewellyn, Edward. Salvage and Destroy. Daw Books, 1984. ISBN 0-87997-898-8. It isn't a fantastic book that you should race down to your local bookstore at top speed to get -- and then stay up all night reading -- but it's not bad either. Without spoiling the plot, I can say that it is about an advanced spacegoing civilization (the Ults) who have been monitoring Earth for several hundred years. When it becomes evident that human civilization is developing spacefaring abilities, the Ults decide to find out as much info as they can, then destroy their telemetry beacon before Earth finds out about it. The main character in the book is an Ultron (an Ult leader) named Lucian, who embarks on the "salvage and destroy" mission together with a crew of humans descended from New Englanders taken by spaceship to one of the Ult planets around 1700 AD. The Ults can change their physical form within limits, so Lucian has assumed the shape of a human male for this mission. Ults are hermaphroditic, incidentally, and much of the story is devoted to Lucian's trying to comprehend and deal with human sexuality. Lucian narrates the entire story in first person, which contributes to its readability. The ending was not quite what I had expected. The name "Ult" lends itself easily to some terrible puns, by the way. Apparently, the title of respect for an Ultron translates as "Your Ultimate" -- leading Lucian at one point to ask his human crewmates to stop calling him that because it sounds silly in English. Whether the Ults used Ultrix on their computers is not stated. -- Rich ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jun 84 22:25:47-EDT (Mon) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!tektronix From: !tekig1!markp @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Vertex The Magazine of Science Fiction Does anyone remember Vertex? I have what I think is a complete set of the mag, but I'm not sure. I have all of volume one, all of two but number six, and, I think, volume three stoped at number four. Can anyone tell me if there was a V2#6 and if there were more than four in V3? Vertex started in April of 1973, and was a very plush large format mag. Several of my personal "best liked" short stories and novelettes come from Vertex. Several Niven, Van Vogt, etc. Thanks, "dignified and dependable" Mark Pease Tektronix, Inc. PO box 500 39-170 Beaverton, Oregon 97077 (503) 627-3559 ...tektronix!tekig1!markp ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jun 84 10:00:55-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!nsc!chuqui @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Vertex The Magazine of Science Fiction I also have (had? I may have sold them) most of the old Vertex magazines. Great magazine, I'm sorry it didn't make it. Towards the end the quality went down, in fact that last magazine I got was not a magazine at all but was typeset on newsprint. It tended to be a bit more progressive and experimental than most magazines at the time and did some adult oriented work. Oh, well. chuq >From the ledge of the seventh cornice: Chuq Von Rospach {amd70,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4}!nsc!chuqui (408) 733-2600 x242 You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometime you just might find, you'll get what you need! -- Rolling Stones ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 23 Jun 1984 15:04:41-PDT From: leslie%perch.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Andy Leslie 1 Bernersh Close, From: Sandhurst, Surrey, England) Subject: The Man who Ruled the World Does anyone remember a book in which a 'perfectly ordinary' guy with a wrist watch link to a master computer somewhere, rules the world, but no one knows apart from him? andy ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jun 84 08:53:10 PDT (Friday) From: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: Japanese swords and sorcery Cc: rneal@his-phoenix-multics.ARPA There is a little known book that is chock full of Japanese samurai fighting, acts of great heroism and bravery, magical mysticism, sorcery, and monkish mirth. The book is called "Tales of the Heike." It is about "... the days of the Heike clan ..." and the war that they fight with their rivals, the Minamoto clan. The opening paragraph follows: The sound of the bell of Jetavana echoes the impermanence of all things. The hue of the flowers of the teak-tree declares that they who flourish must be brought low. Yea, the proud ones are but for a moment, like an evening dream in springtime. The mighty are destroyed at the last, they are but as the dust before the wind. The kicker is that the "Tales of the Heike," or "Heike Monogatari" was written in the thirteenth century by "historians" of that age: it is not fiction per se, but rather more like legend. The events detailed took place at about the same time that the Icelandic Saga's were being written. The translation that I have is by A.L. Sadler, and can be found in most bookstores that carry non-western history books. Perry ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jun 84 10:28:48-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!ritcv!ccivax!abh @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Wanted: Galileo back issues I am looking to get my hands on back issues of the now defunct sci fi magazine, Galileo. It ran for 2-3 years about 4 years ago. If anyone has copies, extras, pointers etc please drop me a line. Andrew Hudson 234 canterbury rd Roch., N.Y. 14607 1-716-244-4485 ...[rlgvax | decvax | ucbvax!allegra]!rochester!ritcv!ccivax!abh "From the ever cycling epicenter of Rochester...." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jun 84 10:51 EDT From: Jonathan Ostrowsky Subject: Wodehouse in F&SF Many thanks to both Kenn Barry and Jerry Boyajian for tracking down the P.G. Wodehouse stories that appeared in F&SF during the 50s. I'm delighted to have been proven wrong on this. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 84 12:09:38 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: sf at Filmex Filmex is the Los Angeles International Film Exposition, held annually. This year it's being held in early July (I wonder why? What else could be going on in LA this July?), and it features a number of science fiction and fantasy films. Some of these (most of these) are made by independents or are foreign, and are thus unlikely to get wide distribution. Filmex may be the only place they're shown. If you're in the Los Angeles area, or are going to be during July, you might want to look into them. Here is a list of the obvious Sf/fantasy films (descriptions are direct quotes from the Filmex brochure): July 10 "The Company of Wolves" "Centering on the rich, sensual dreams of a young girl, this ... film ...is a macabre fairy tale set in a world of legend, wonder, and fear. Angela Lansbury, David Warner, and Stephen Rea star." (This may be the second hardest film to get into at Filmex. Princess Anne, you know, the British one, will be appearing before this film to say something gracious and aristocratic about British film.) "City Limits" "Director Aaron Lipstadt and writer/star Don Opper, who made last year's low-budget sci-fi hit "Android", created this futuristic adventure story about a fun-loving bunch of kids who have survived an adult-killing plague. James Earl Jones, Rae Dawn Chong, Kim Cattrall, and John Stockwell co-star." July 11 "The Philadelphia Experiment" "Michael Pare and Karen Allen star in this exciting, action packed sci-fi thriller, directed by Stewart Raffill, about a secret navy project in 1943 that goes awry, sending two men through time to the year 1984, where they become involved in a more dangerous project that threatens the existence of the universe. New World's biggest project to date." July 13 "Eyes of Fire" "The powers of good and evil clash in this haunting fantasy/ adventure story shot in the beautiful Ozarks of Missouri. Director Avery Crounse follows a group of Irish pioneers through the 18th- century American wilderness into an eerie, forbidden valley where they are attacked by mysterious beings." "Science Fiction Omnibus" "The best of short sci-fi films: "The Plant", a lighthearted fantasy about a most unusual green plant; "The Quest", a modern myth based on an original Ray Bradbury story; "Renascence", a haunting B&W film about a woman tormented by a cruel master; "Strange Tangents", about a modern sorceress, a young magician, and a 3-foot-tall talking salamander; "The Final Hour", an exciting story of love and death on a spacecraft in the year 2213." July 15 "Pessi and Illusia" (Finland) "In Heikki Partanen's wonderfully imaginative adaptation of a well-known Finnish fairy tale, Pessi the gnome and Illusia the fairy fall in love and brave the many dangers and diabolical creatures in a magical forest that lies in the shadow of war- fought by man. Winner of the Grand Prize at the Berlin Film Festival's Children's Series." July 16 "The Plague Dogs" "As heartbreaking as Lassie pursued by Nazis and as sinister as "1984", this animated feature by Martin Rosen ("Watership Down"), based on the Richard Adams book about two dogs who are hunted down after escaping from a government research facility in England, is a brilliantly sustained narrative and an experience that will move any audience." July 17 "Ring of Power" "Clive A. Smith's phantasmagorical animated feature about a diabolical, aging rock 'n' roll superstar is set in a post-apocalyptic metropolis and features the voices of Paul LeMat and Catherine O'Hara, and the music of Lou Reed, Iggy Pop, Deborah Harry, Cheap Trick, and Earth, Wind, and Fire." July 19 "Firebird" (Korea) "Director Eung-Ho Ko's melodrama follows the beautiful adopted daughter of a sorceress on a small island who believes that a jealous mountain god will protect her by destroying any man who tries to haave sexual relations with her. Judging by what happens to the young artist from Seoul who paints her in the buff, we have no reason to doubt her." Those in LA can pick up Filmex calendars a lot of places, including most record stores and many movie theaters. If anyone outside of LA wants particulars on ordering tickets, exact times, and locations, send me mail. I hope to see all of these films (and several others, not sf), and will post my impressions of the ones I see. Peter Reiher ARPA: reiher@ucla-cs.arpa UUCP: ucbvax!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 84 12:43:16-PDT (Wed) From: hplabs!oliveb!olivee!gnome @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: sf at Filmex Ok, sounds good... What IS Filmex? ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jun 84 23:09:09-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd70!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian @ From: Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: re: sf at Filmex > From: Peter Reiher > > July 17 "Ring of Power" > "Clive A. Smith's phantasmagorical animated feature > about a diabolical, aging rock 'n' roll superstar is set in > a post-apocalyptic metropolis and features the voices of > Paul LeMat and Catherine O'Hara, and the music of Lou Reed, > Iggy Pop, Deborah Harry, Cheap Trick, and Earth, Wind, and > Fire." This sounds like a re-titling of ROCK AND RULE, which came out a couple of years ago and ended up a disaster. I never got a chance to see it (I think it lasted only a week in Boston), but considering the reviews it got, I'm not sure that I wasn't fortunate. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 84 2:44:31-PDT (Sun) From: ihnp4!mit-eddie!rh @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: re: sf at Filmex >> From: Peter Reiher >> >> July 17 "Ring of Power" >> "Clive A. Smith's phantasmagorical animated feature >> about a diabolical, aging rock 'n' roll superstar is set in >> a post-apocalyptic metropolis and features the voices of >> Paul LeMat and Catherine O'Hara, and the music of Lou Reed, >> Iggy Pop, Deborah Harry, Cheap Trick, and Earth, Wind, and >> Fire." >This sounds like a re-titling of ROCK AND RULE, which came out a >couple of years ago and ended up a disaster. I never got a chance >to see it (I think it lasted only a week in Boston), but >considering the reviews it got, I'm not sure that I wasn't >fortunate. > --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard, MA) Yes, I would be willing to bet my reputation (such as it is) on it being Rock and Rule in a different package. Rock and Rule was probably a silly name, anyway. Well, one of the advantages of MIT (enter brag mode) is that our Lecture Series Committee does a good job of getting us sneak previews (we've gotten things like "Missing" and "Police Academy") when they are available, and we got to see this flick. It wasn't bad, it just wasn't great. The people who made it were there and had a little discussion after the flick, asking us what we thought about it and telling us a little about what was behind it. I would consider the animation to be pretty reasonable, and parts of the story are good. The bad things about it: the ending is kinda hokey (like Star Wars, etc.), and the characters are made unnecessarily cute. I was also rooting for the bad guy. Estimated entertainment equivalence (EEE): $1.75. I was very happy to see it for free. -- Randwulf (Randy Haskins); Path= genrad!mit-eddie!rh ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 27-Jun SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #125 *** EOOH *** Date: 27 Jun 84 1209-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #125 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 27 Jun 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 125 Today's Topics: ****** SPECIAL STAR TREK ISSUE ****** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 Aug 83 20:52:47 EDT From: Jaffe@RUTGERS Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!! The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the movie "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock". People who have not yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following messages. Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 84 21:09:20-PDT (Mon) From: decvax!cca!ima!ism780!paul @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: mild spoiler ST III/IV - (nf) Yesterday Harve Bennett, writer and producer of STIII, was interviewed on the radio here in LA. He strongly hinted that there would be a new Enterprise (NCC-1701 was hardly the first, after all!). Since he pointed out that none of the Enterprise folks liked anything about the Excelsior (sp? my dictionary defines this as "wood shavings"!), I don't expect the new Enterprise to look like *that*. But I hope they don't end up with something that looks *too* much like the old one. Paul Perkins ...{uscvax|ucla-vax|vortex}!ism780!paul ...decvax!yale-co!ima!ism780!paul "Wir leben immer noch." ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 84 12:08:00-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!hp-pcd!hp-dcd!hpfclk!fritz @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: [Spoiler, by the way] Re: Early Revi Saavik could, indeed, mind-meld with Spock. She is half-Vulcan (just as he is!), and half-Romulan. If Spock can mind-meld with mere *humans*, he can certainly meld with a fellow halfling... It IS an interesting question, though. In "Amok Time", Spock was able to avoid mating by killing Kirk (or so he thought), which nullified his mating urge. How was the urge quelled in STIII, if not by Saavik? Did the Pon Farr period pass so quickly that poor adolescent Spock never knew what hit him? Gary Fritz Hewlett-Packard Ft Collins, CO ihnp4!hpfcla!hpfclk!fritz ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jun 1984 06:30:31 PDT From: CARROLL@USC-ISIB.ARPA Subject: ST3 and green Spock I seem to recall from Whitfield's "The Making of Star Trek" (TV series), that in the early episodes Spock WAS tinted a bit green. Even if not, maybe Vulcans have a pink coloration over their greenish blood, as we have black, brown, yellow, and pure-white albinos, even though we're all red-blooded below. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 84 00:53 EST From: Andrew D. Sigel Subject: Star Trek III -- Film vs. Novelization As a general rule, I don't like novelizations of original screenplays. I can't see shelling out three bucks for a hack writer's conversion of the movie into a scene by scene retelling, with a little background added to make the reader feel the money isn't totally wasted. As an example of what I mean, I cite the novelization of THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, which was done (in) by Donald Glut. I cannot recall anything that was enhanced in that novel, but I can recall several times where Glut's interpretation was in direct conflict with the scene in the movie, even though the dialogue remained the same. Vonda McIntyre, on the other hand, has taken the second and third Star Trek movies, and made them even more real. Without the benefit of special effects or film sets, she has expanded on the movie, fleshing out the plot and the characters, making them far more real than either movie was able to accomplish. Which is as it should be; as movie adaptations of extant novels tend to cut out scenes and details in order to get the movie down to a manageable size, so should a novelization add in details of character and plot to make up for the lost visual components. McIntyre's novelization of THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK succeeds in this, but it also succeeds in two additional levels. First, it succeeds as a sequel to the second movie better than the third movie does, for it finishes the story of Carol Marcus, details better the initial return from the Genesis planet, and also gives better background on the Enterprise crew members while on Earth. Second, it succeeds in its own right as a sequel to the second movie novelization, though it does, admittedly, suffer from the fact that it is a sequel, and not an independent novel. For those who have read McIntyre's original ST novel, THE ENTROPY EFFECT, there is the extra bonus of seeing how she has used the events of the novel as background throwaways in both her novelizations, neatly integrating it into the official ST milieu. (Those who haven't read the novel should do so, it is one of the top three or four ST novels; I also highly recommend THE WOUNDED SKY by Diane Duane -- Ms. Duane has another ST novel coming out in a week or two.) I don't know why McIntyre isn't working on original novels instead of novelizations -- she won the Hugo award for DREAMSNAKE -- but we're lucky she has such an affinity for ST. It's amazing how one can read her movie novelizations and picture the scenes she's describing -- although not in the movies -- and have them play out in our minds. Who said movie novelizations were all bad? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 84 20:47 CDT From: Jerry Bakin Subject: Vulcan Hematology and Human Cosmetology Look at the early Star Trek episodes. Spock IS tinted green. (Was that my tv set? Space legs in an Ion Storm? Copper based blood?) Also, I haven't looked into the American Heritage Dictionary recently, but SURELY it gives the wood chips/packing material as the second definition? Nope! It is the only definition given. Is the American Heritage the one Nero Wolfe was burning page by page because it claimed that "infer" and "imply" were equivalent? O tempora, O mores. (O the tempura, O the morels) O DI immortales! Actually, in my edition (1974), they take great pains to make sure one understands the two words are "carefully distinguished in modern usage.... not interchangeable." However it is a cruddy dictionary, I have been looking for any dictionary where I can find the definition of "perjorative" (sic?) or instantiate. Anyone got one? Can't wait to get my Oxford English Dictionary on a chip. Jerry. ------------------------------ From: Steve Platt Subject: Star Trek -- spoiler section... Date: Sun, 24 Jun 84 00:04 EDT A few things as they occur to me... I saw ST3 2 or 3 weeks ago, in the same week with IJ:ToD. One for $2.50, the other for $3.50. I hope ST3 was the $3.50 one, as that's about what each was worth. I was somewhat dissapointed in the ending -- it was far too audience-satisfying to make me feel that "something significant has happened". But who expects art out of $$-desires? Besides, it left everything far too closed. *My* ending: Spock still a vegetable (if you *insist* on reviving him), perhaps a glimmer of recognition when he last sees Kirk - a flicker of an eyebrow raise, nothing more, then back to the veggie patch. This leaves "hope", but no firm commitment to Spockkies... Kirk and all the rest being led off in chains: grand larceny, piracy, high treason, sabotage, kidnapping (remember Uhuru's youngster?), disobeying orders, entering a quarrantined zone, inciting war with the Klingon empire, grave-robbing, not locking Starbase doors behind them... They should get 40 years in the Spice Mines of Kessel for sure. A side question: in the ST episode "Attack of the Giant Amoeba", I remember a Vulcan-manned cruiser being swallowed by the amoeba. Why didn't anyone scream because those 400+ *purebred* vulcans (much better than the mongrel in question) didn't get "the final sysdump"? {I have more, but it is best sent to a general comment mailing.} -steve ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jun 84 20:45:32-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!intelca!t4test!chip @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #118 (Star Trek flight Subject: recorders) >From: Wang Zeep >I think the comment about "The Menagerie" episode (detailed film >records aren't kept) was made because Spock's footage included >scenes in the Captain's bedroom, etc. Personally, I like the >flight recorder idea, although wasn't there an episode where the >record was tampered with? Yes. I don't remember the title, maybe "Courtmartial". In this Kirk was being courtmartialed for making an improper decision which killed one of his crew. This crewman was in a pod taking readings of an ion storm. Kirk had to jetison the pod. The flight recorder showed him doing this during a yellow alert rather than during an emergency (i.e. red alert). Turns out that this guy harbored a grudge against Kirk. Long ago Kirk put him on report for leaving a something-or-other switch open while on guard duty, nearly destroying their vessel. The guy blamed Kirk for never being promoted to captain. This grudge drove him to insanity. What actually happened was that he wasn't in the jetissoned pod at all, but rather hid on the Enterprise and later doctored the flight recorder transcript so to show that Kirk jettisoned the pod during yellow alert rather than the red alert. Spock found out that the computers had been tampered with by beating his own program at chess, where he should have only been able to get at best a draw. So, to those of you think that Kirk can't be courtmartialed for stealing the Enterprise, "phooey!" Chip Rosenthal, Intel/Santa Clara {idi|intelca|icalqa|imcgpe|kremvax|qubix|ucscc}!t4test!{chip|news} ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jun 84 15:10:00-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!hp-pcd!hp-dcd!hpfclk!fritz @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: ST III question (spoiler) No, it was definitely in the original release of ST II. I remember at the time wondering what in the world was supposed to be happening. Gary Fritz Hewlett Packard Ft Collins, CO ihnp4!hpfcla!hpfclk!fritz ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jun 84 20:37:34 EDT From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] Subject: ST3, answers to commetns, possible spoiler? The flight recorder that was tampered with was a shuttle flight recorder in the episode "Courtmartial". I dont remember any tampering with the recorders of the Enterprise itself. As I remember in "Amok Time", Spock was on the order of 50+ years old. He had not yet had his first pon farr, and states during the scene where he is telling Kirk about Vulcan Birds and Bees that he had hoped to be spared the shame. Since the Young Vulcan was genetically Spock, a hybrid, I can't see why the silly pon farr happened so early in the first place. Saavik and he did not necessarily have to do anything, since in "Amok Time" he came out of it after fighting Kirk, when he should have died. All in all, a poorly done section of the movie. I think the major weakness of the movie was all the bits of the plot/story that were left on the cutting room floor. I can see the gaping holes designed to make you buy the book so you can know what is *really* going on. They did this in ST2 also, where a major scene was cut out....Kirk finding out that Saavik was "learning by doing" with David. Without that piece of information, it is very questionable why Saavik would have taken a relative downgrade from Command Captain Trainee to Scientific Researcher. I didnt think Romulans were *that* loyal, and having not been raised Romulan, she wouldn't have been exposed to those standards of loyalty anyway, but to Vulcan. The Vulcan Temple Maidens were for more than show...didn't anyone else notice that they seemed to be lending power to T'Whatsername as she was re-recording Spock into his own head? Live Long and Prosper (or as Klingons would put it) Die Young and be Sterile Yay Trekkies! /amqueue ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 84 0:01:20-PDT (Sun) From: ihnp4!ihlpf!ARPA @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: "Re: STIII: The Search... - (nf)" your letter, like many more i've seen on the topic of 'goofs of ST-III' looks like all the others. in a nutshell: the people who made ST-III goof up. they call a romulan ship a kilingon ship. the klingons look different. five people run a ship that normally requires MANY more. etc. etc. people come on the net and say 'look, a goof up.' then other people come on the net and pull stuff out of their ass to show us how/why it could have happened. you said yourself it looked like (from an old script) they simply changed from romulans to klingons. but no! what if (now insert an incredible line from some obscure star-trek book no one's ever read) happened!! do you REALLY believe the writers of the movie said 'but in the role playing game the klingons......'???????? heck no! they just throw out anything that comes to mind, 'cause they know it will sell. the klingons looked different (to me, anyway) because the people making the movie simply didn't care!!! why can't people accept the fact there's hardly a movie made that isn't full of holes? the reason i didn't like ST-III that much is because it had SO many holes. i couldn't sit there and say to myself 'why that must be a klingon from the lower south bronx 18th mutant strain , that's why they look different'. i simply said 'god, what's that plastic crap on their forheads???' quit defending the movie with wild-ass speculation! in some spots they blew it and obviously didn't fool everyone!!!! maybe THAT'S why so many people walked away saying ST-II was so much better... ron replies to: ihdev!rjv whooops! almost fell off my soap-box B-) ps: yes, i made a lot of exaggerations there, but do you get my point? in a sci-fi setting, yes, you can make damn near anything happen. but there's a point where you're making things up just to be making them up. ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jun 84 8:17:00-PDT (Thu) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uok!dwhitney @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: SPOCK'S BLOOD - (nf) In "The Making of Star Trek," it is pointed out that makeup coloring WAS, in fact used to give Mr. Spock the appearance of a green hue to his skin, but because the color mixing of the film when processed was so poor that you couldn't tell it. This is also true for the color of Kirk's command shirt; how many folks out there know that his command shirt is really GREEN, not GOLD as it typically appears on most color sets. Also, in the first pilot, "the Cage" the green Orion slave woman went through an interesting process; when they had an actress come in to the studio for color and film testing of the green makeup, after each day's test footage was submitted to the processing department, it would come back the next day and the girl in the footage, which had been made up green, came out completely normal-color. For about a week, this happened, made up green, the footage came out looking normal. The reason for this was the man in the labs doing the processing didn't know she was SUPPOSED to be green, and therefore didn't know what to do with a green girl...(there's a joke there, but I'll overlook it..) Anyway, the lab just kept washing out the green to make her look normal. Once the production staff and the make up department got their signals uncrossed, it worked out fine.... David Whitney !ctvax!uokvax!uok!dwhitney ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 28-Jun SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #126 *** EOOH *** Date: 28 Jun 84 1302-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #126 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 28 Jun 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 126 Today's Topics: Books - Gibson & Peake & Solmonsen (2 msgs) & Pronunciation in SF, Films - Star Wars (5 msgs), Television - Dr. Who ( 2 msgs), Miscellaneous - How to Get Rich & WorldCon & "Excelsior" (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 28 Jun 1984 1214-EDT From: John Redford Subject: "Neuromancer" by William Gibson I too thought that "Neuromancer" had great atmosphere and style. It was a nice portrayal of a bleak, Japanese-dominated world full of casually used cybernetics. My problem with the book was that I had no sympathy for any of the characters. The male protagonist, Case, was a weak and selfish whiner. For someone who was supposed to be an ace system cracker, he didn't seem to be very bright; I wouldn't trust him to program his way out of a begin-end block. The female protagonist, Molly, was a psychopathic killer. She has razor blade claws surgically implanted in her fingers, and makes liberal use of them through the story. Why should we care about these people? Gibson gives us no reason to do so. If Case was knocked off by a fellow computer cowboy and Molly by another ninja, the world would be a better place. They do not grow through the story, nor does their conflict with the space-baron family of Tessier-Ashpool resolve anything. Now, lots of stories have cowards and villains as main characters. Usually, though, something in the story depends on their cowardice or villainy. Gibson doesn't seem to notice these elementary moral faults in his characters, and I find that deeply disturbing. I've noticed the same thing in a number of works, and it bothers me more and more. Indiana Jones in "Raiders of the Lost Ark" is a murderous maniac, and people say "Oh, how exciting". Dickson, Pournelle, and Drake write series of novels about mercenaries, men who make war for money. John Norman has written over a dozen books about Tarl Cabot, a guy who would be serving a several hundred year sentence for sex crimes if he were on Earth. People can read and write this sort of stuff if they want, of course. I just wish there wasn't so much money in it. John Redford DEC-Hudson ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jun 84 7:28:45-PDT (Tue) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!lanl-a!unm-cvax!unmvax!moret @ From: Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Mervyn Peake I highly recommend the Penguin edition--and not just for the reasons discussed by Jim Janney. Each book in the trilogy is also a substantial work, and it pays to have a quality paperback, that won't disintegrate from repeated readings. To my mind, the best volume is the first (Titus Groan); it includes absolutely fantastic descriptions of the fortress (Gormenghast), with an atmosphere unequalled in fiction anywhere and some very humorous passages about education. The main characteristic is the style: the author's prose is *very* sophisticated, although sometimes a bit heavy or germanic. I found myself re-reading the same few pages several times over, just to savor the richness of the prose. The second volume is less polished; the style is less consistent and the atmosphere somewhat lacking. Towards the end of the second volume, the author starts on a wholesale campaign of (literally) character assassination which continues in the third volume. The third volume is definitely hasty, as would be expected given the circumstances under which it finally appeared. As to whether this is SF... There is no futuristic or historical pretense, nor is it close to fantasy; it is just good (speculative?) fiction. Bernard M.E. Moret (505) 277-31{31,12} Dept. of Computer Science, U. of New Mexico, Albuquerque, NM 87131 {convex,ucbvax,gatech,aml-cs,csu-cs,anl-mcs}!unmvax!moret {pur-ee!purdue,ucbvax!lbl-csam,philabs!cmcl2}!lanl-a!unm-cvax!moret ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jun 84 12:08:45 PDT From: hiller.pa@XEROX.ARPA Subject: responses to a variety of msgs. Re: "Oh, if you've been turned off by Jessica Salmonson's other writings, it might still be worth looking at Tomoe Gozen. If you haven't read any of her other writings, don't worry about it." What is it that turns you off about Jessica Salmonson's other writings? I haven't read that much of her, but I didn't find anything bad about any of it. Marty ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 25 Jun 1984 10:10:05-PDT From: feldman%awesum.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Geoff Feldman at Trilogy From: 544-3410) Subject: Jessica Amanda Salmonsen I have enjoyed her books very much, but heard some strange things about her. Since I dont know if they are true, I dont want to state them here. I am an instructor in a Korean form of Kendo and like her books not just because they are entertaining and well written, but because the sword scenes are not baloney as in so much other "Sword and Sorcery". There is another book by an author whose name I forget which has a Japanese Kendo component as well as Zen. The basic plot is that a planet is colonized only to find out too late that it is populated with a form of Brain parasite. The very clever expedition commander (and part time Zen master) forms the culture around Zen precepts. Only by keeping the mind clear thru Zen meditation Can the colonists keep there minds from being overcome. Does this ring any bells?? ---Geoff ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jun 84 14:13:43-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!jkb @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: SF Pronunciation I was having a discussion about the upcoming Dune movie with my friend on the way to work this morning, and the conversation got around to the pronunciation of people, places, and things in general in the world of sci-fi. She was saying that when she reads an "unpronouncable" word, she stops trying to pronounce it altogether because a) she doesn't want to go to the trouble every time of trying to remember how she said it the last time or, b) doesn't want to mis-pronounce (read: pronounce it differently than the author intended here) the word. I saw an interview with a relatively well-known sci-fi author (Asimov or Bradbury or ?) sometime back, and on the same subject he said that he didn't care how people pronounced the words in his books. If he was concerned about how they were pronounced, he would include a glossary/dictionary with pronunciations in the back of the book. I'm curious as to how y'all out there feel about and deal with this problem. Yours until the gophers come home, jb ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 84 9:45:11-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!floyd!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!f From: luke!ron @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: More Continuity errors in ROTJ (trivia question) Can anyone identify a peculiar discontinuity or inconsistency in ROTJ? The problem starts when we see R2 and C3PO for the first time in this episode, as they are trucking down the sandy road to Jabba's towers. There's another minor discontinuity in the scene where Luke, et al are trying to get thru the security shield to land on Endor. As the shuttle Tyderium flies in front of the bridge tower on the command ship and the film cuts to scenes inside and outside the shuttle craft, at least two pieces of film are sequenced backwards. (i.e. the shuttle flies completely past an object, then in the next take the shuttle is not even half way across an object...) No big deal though; it's still a fantastic piece of cinematography. -Ron ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 19 Jun 1984 10:51:06-PDT From: dearborn%sage.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: Answer to Kenn Barry's question The error in the scene from Star Wars that you described is this: while the conversation is taking place on the bridge, they are travelling in hyperspace. The view out the window is motionless. Perhaps they did not have enough of the hyperspace effect to strip into that scene, or they thought that it would be too distracting. ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jun 84 22:50:00-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!hp-pcd!john @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Continuity error in STAR WARS - the How do you think an experienced smuggler like Hans would try to skake off a tail? You make a series of small (30 secs) jumps so that even if they duplicated your first one they could not follow you beyond the next solar system. They probably did a short jump to the next star system to get out of immediate danger and then plotted a safe course to the rebel base. John Eaton !hplabs!hp-pcd!john ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jun 84 15:01:41-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!ritcv!jeh @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Continuity error in STAR WARS - the ANSWER Are you sure other scenes showed an abnormal (or no) star field while in hyperspace? ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 19 Jun 1984 10:51:06-PDT From: dearborn%sage.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: Answer to Kenn Barry's question "Gelly babies" are the british name for gelly beans. Some of you may remember that one of the Beatles made the mistake of saying that he liked gelly babies. From then on, they were pelted with them at concerts. How times have changed. Reagan likes them, but gets pelted with criticism instead. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jun 84 01:20 EDT From: Paul Schauble Subject: Dr. Who memorabilia I've heard of Dr. Who video games and scarves for sale in England. I believe this digest reaches several British sites. I'm curious about what other Dr. Who items are available. Paul ------------------------------ Date: Sat 23 Jun 84 09:56:27-EDT From: Vince.Fuller@CMU-CS-C.ARPA Subject: How to get rich with a time machine I'm surprised no one has though about this before. What about aluminum? Up until fairly recently (a hundred years or so ago) before the bauxite refining process was known, aluminum was literally worth its weight in gold (they put an aluminum pyramid at the top of the Washington Monument). So, all you have to to is gather up a few thousand empty beer and soda cans, melt them down, and bring them back a hundred years or so where you can easily find someone who would give you gold for them. To improve your profits, bring the gold back to a few years ago when it was at $1000 an ounce and sell it there. Result: a few bucks worth of empty cans (worth about $.01/ounce today, I think) makes you an easy fortune. --Vince ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jun 84 10:41:01-PDT (Tue) From: hplabs!guest @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Wanted: roomates at World Science Fiction Convention ****************************************** * N E W S F L A S H * ****************************************** I'm looking for a few good people. The World Science Fiction Convention, also known as LA Con II, is coming up at the end of August. Therefore, I am trying to get a group of people together to share a room or suite; if you can put up with someone who is generally on the left-hand side of reality and yet tries to avoid virgin sacrifices, please contact me through one of the access methods below: Mike Sorens Home phone: 408-446-1260 10200 Miller Ave. #412 Office phone: 408-257-7000 X3877 Cupertino, CA 95014 HP Telnet: 157-3877 Net: ...!hplabs!hpda!ms ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 84 12:50:12 PDT From: Rich Wales Subject: Re: "infer", "imply", and American Heritage Dictionary Regarding Suford Lewis's comment in V9 #121: Is the American Heritage the one Nero Wolfe was burning page by page because it claimed that "infer" and "imply" were equivalent? Probably not. The 1976 edition of the American Heritage Dictionary clearly distin- guishes between "infer" (to draw a conclusion) and "imply" (to hint or suggest). The use of "infer" where "imply" is meant was rejected by 92% of the membership of the AHD's Usage Panel. -- Rich ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 84 00:22 EST From: Andrew D. Sigel Subject: Star Trek -- more on Excelsior (plus Nero Wolfe) Suford Lewis asked: < Is the American Heritage the one Nero Wolfe was burning page by < page because it claimed that "infer" and "imply" were equivalent? No, Nero Wolfe consigned the Webster's New International Dictionary, Third Edition to the fires one page at a time due to that claim and other solecisms, retaining his copy of the Second Edition (which, incidentally, is copyright 1934). I'm afraid I don't have the name of the novel in which that memorable scene appeared. < I haven't looked into the American Heritage Dictionary recently, < but SURELY it gives the wood chips/packing material as the second < definition? The abovementioned Webster's Second Edition gives the primary definition of excelsior (the noun) as "A material of curled shreds of wood used for stuffing upholstered furniture, for packing, etc." (Obviously before the advent of foam rubber and styrofoam.) The secondary definition has to do with print: "A small size of type (3 points), seldom used." The definition of excelsior (the adjective) is "More lofty; still higher; ever upward; -- used as a motto, and [cap.] as the title of a poem (1841) by Longfellow. I thought, while I had the dictionary out, it wouldn't hurt to see what it said about enterprise: "An attempt or project, esp. one which involves activity, courage, energy, or the like; a bold, arduous, or hazardous attempt; an important undertaking; as, a warlike enterprise." (noun) The verb forms were all considered either archaic or obsolete, but had similar meanings. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jun 84 22:50:57 PDT (Wed) Subject: STIII: Excelsior From: Alastair Milne There seems to be a dearth of good dictionaries on the net. "Excelsior" is Latin, meaning "higher". The Oxford at least will give you exactly the derivation. I hardly think New York calls itself the Excelsior State because of its overwhelming lumber industry. Besides, if you research naval history, I think you'll find at least one or two notable ships named Excelsior, just as you'll find Exeter and Enterprise. Furthermore, didn't the episode called The Ultimate Computer have a sister ship of the Enterprise called Excelsior, in the war games? Couldn't swear to it -- I don't remember it that clearly -- but I thought it did. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jun 84 08:46:49 EDT From: MG9G@CMCCTF Subject: The Excelsior "Excelsior" meaning "wood shavings"?? Hasn't anyone out there heard the old carol "Angels We Have Heard on High"? You know, "Gloria in Excelsis Deo"? Deej (mg9g@cmu-cc-tf) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 28-Jun SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #127 *** EOOH *** Date: 28 Jun 84 1340-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #127 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 28 Jun 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 127 Today's Topics: Books - The Man Who Ruled the World (2 msgs), Films - Ghostbusters (3 msgs) & Indiana Jones & The Day the Earth Stood Still (3 msgs) & Gremlins (2 msgs) & The Last Starfighter (2 msgs) & Movies in General (3 msgs) & Movie Gossip & "Rock and Rule" (2 msgs) & Sigourney Weaver & Star Trek III (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 28 Jun 84 09:33:38 PDT (Thu) From: Mike Brzustowicz Subject: The Man Who Rules the world from his Wristwatch I remember reading a short story like that in F&SF, which I believe was made into a novel. The short story I'm thinking of is "Michaelmas", I don't remember the author. Additional information: the protagonist was an MIT graduate who had started with phone hacking. When the phone system got computerized, he made a more complex system. Eventually, his program became sentient. (I believe it was called Domenick and the man's name was Michaelmas (last name)). Had a run in with creatures that could redirect electrons or something. Anyway, it was a good story, and I want a pointer to the novel, if any. -Mike ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jun 84 10:13:20 PDT (Thu) To: leslie%perch.DEC@Decwrl Subject: Re: The Man who Ruled the World From: "Jim Hester" You might be thinking of Michaelmas by Algis Budrys. I hope not; it wasn't very good. Michaelmas was a news reporter who used an intelligent computer called Domino (disguised as a tape recorder) to link into and control the world's computer network. The plot was something unbelievable about aliens discovering Earth, and Michaelmas trying to drive them off without letting Earth know of the danger. ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jun 84 21:47:43-PDT (Thu) From: decvax!genrad!wjh12!harvard!brownell @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Movie review: GHOSTBUSTERS I loved it too. Funniest horror movie I've seen in years!! My favorite part was the the large apparition at the very end ... reminds me of telling ghost stories around the campfire. By all means, SEE THIS MOVIE !!!! Dave Brownell {allegra,floyd,ihnp4,seismo}!harvard!brownell ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jun 84 17:45:00-PDT (Fri) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!ea!mwm @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Movie review: GHOSTBUSTERS - (nf) Ok, now that that is taken care of, I got the impression that the Ghostbusters [spoiler deleted] didn't enjoy having ghosts boxed up in a toaster. Or is it just me?? Ben Walls ...cbosgd!bsw Definitely you. Sigurney Weaver's problems started before the Ghostbusters ever had a paying job. Carleton College by dialup not yet on the net (net nyet?) "Who are you who are so wise in the ways of science?" ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 84 13:48:00-PDT (Tue) From: hplabs!hp-pcd!john @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: RE: The Day the Earth Stood Still I was listening to the radio the other day when they were talking about how hollywood was really into remakes this year. Amoung the list of remakes either released or in the works was "The day the Earth stood still". Has anyone else heard about this? John Eaton !hplabs!hp-pcd!john ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jun 84 11:52:11-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!ut-sally!ut-ngp!judy @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Klaatu GNUT??? Gee, I always thought his name was Gort! At least, that was his name in the movie. "Turned me into a gnut! ... I got better." Judy (By the way, Klaatu is also the name taken by a musical group who was at on point suspected of being the Beatles back together again. Remember? Well, it WAS a long time ago...) ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 84 11:57:53-PDT (Sun) From: ihnp4!houxm!mhuxl!ulysses!allegra!jdd @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: GREMLINS (GREAT. (SPOILERS)) Good morning, campers! I keep reading reviews, pro and con, of Spielberg's new movie, "Gremlins". Perhaps someone who has seen Spielberg's version can compare it with Dante's version, now playing here on Earth-Prime, and tell us which is better? Cheers, John ("Master of the Low-Key Insult") DeTreville Bell Labs, Murray Hill ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jun 84 8:54:00-PDT (Tue) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!acf4!sullivan @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: GREMLINS (GREAT. (SPOILERS)) Even better, let's all ignore Chris Columbus, who wrote the story in the first place, and did a good bit of the design of how things should look. I'm always amazed when his name isn't even mentioned. I feel obligated to stick up for Chris, because I spent 2 years in the NYU dorms living next to him. David Sullivan ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jun 84 11:25:48 EDT From: Alexander B. Latzko Subject: The Last Starfighter (non spoiler) Just finished the book and I must truly pray the movie is better. The book is in the usual ( or to me what seems usual mode of good sf movie tie ins) mode of draw out the backround and leave the good stuff for two minutes at the end. One thing I noticed about the physical book. On the spine where the publishers logo often goes it was marked "MOVIE TIE-IN". Waiting for the hype machine to run out of steam (July 15??) alex ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jun 84 11:58:52-PDT (Mon) From: ihnp4!ihuxf!rls @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: The Last Starfighter (book) I devoured Alan Dean Fosters version of The Last Starfighter last weekend. This is his adaption from the screen play (like he did for Alien) so I expect that the movie will probably hold pretty close to the book. I can't wait for the movie! It sounds like the video arcade addict's (myself included) dream come true. There should be lots of opportunities for the Cray computer's special effects. It sounds like there also should be interesting humor, the hero mentions something about "THE FORCE" right before battle and his copilots response is very good! I don't want this to be a spoiler so I'll stop now, but again, I can't wait for the movie!! Rick Schieve ------------------------------ From: Steve Platt Subject: Movies in general Date: Sun, 24 Jun 84 00:05 EDT And while we're on the topic, what of "Star Trek IV: The Search for Consistency"? Is it really worth it, or should Paramount et. al. just call it quits while the going's good? It seems the era of the high-budget 'fex films may be reaching an end. In the beginning, there was Star Wars (IV). Moderate budget, made a mint. It was one-of-a-kind, a new /art/-form. Flash-trash-fairytale. We all saw it over and over, and the studio made itself. As time went on, we saw more and more, and it begins to wear thin. Or out. Yes, I will go to a film just to watch the effects. Part of it is job-related. But there is really very little new in the films. I don't think people are going to see these films 40 or 50 times. Can the /flash/ industry hold out for another few years, will they be able to make a profit (outside of non-incidentals: toys and chewing gum) on multi-megabuck films with a lessening (repeat) attendance? Or will these films turn into a sales weapons for the toys they support (talk about a self-defining industry!)? Indiana Jones is a one-joke horse. IJ:RotLA was fun because it was fast, amusing, and we could identify with the territory (Egypt, the Lost Ark, etc.). IJ:ToD was a weaker film: IJ's joke was gone, the background was unfamiliar, so Lucaspielberg etc. substituted more and more action. Slimy grossness is in this year (Saturday the 14'th: The Sequel, coming to a theater near you), so it was made present in ample quantity. ST2 and ST3, as well as SW4 and SW5, at least made some attempt to develop characters. IJ:ToD couldn't -- the series can go no further. SW had a story to tell and told it. It took three episodes, some were better than others, it sapped out at the end, but it was a complete story, a good fable. ST3 reached an end. I hope. "The adventure continues". Pah. -steve platt.upenn@csnet-relay or something like that. p.s. speaking of continuing characters, will Basil ever return? will Brenda ever stop crying? ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jun 84 6:11:13-PDT (Wed) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!rocksvax!sunybcs!hobbit @ From: Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Movies in general >>p.s. speaking of continuing characters, will Basil ever return? >>will Brenda ever stop crying? I sure hope so....I miss the black eyepatch.....8-) 8-) Or is she to be seduced by the Frenchman? -The Parker Hobbit a.k.a. Thomas R. Pellitieri UUCP: {allegra, seismo}!rochester!rocksvax!sunybcs!hobbit decvax!watmath!sunybcs!hobbit ARPA & CSNET: hobbit.buffalo@rand-relay ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jun 84 10:42:27-PDT (Mon) From: decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-mrvax!ddb @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Holes in movies I agree with ihdev!rjv (Ron) about why movies are so full of holes -- the people who could plug them just don't care, they know the product will sell anyway. So, instead of spending our time here discussing, flaming about, and trying to rationalize away the holes in various movies, why don't we spend our time reading and discussing some bood BOOKS? At least, in most books, if there is a hole, there is a single person to blame, and you might even be able to get an answer to questions about what alternatives he considered. -- David Dyer-Bennet UUCP: {...decvax,ihnp4,qubix,shasta,ucbvax...}!decwrl!rhea!mrvax!ddb ARPA: decwrl!rhea!mrvax!ddb@{SU-Shasta,Berkeley} ------------------------------ Date: Wed 27 Jun 84 13:59:00-EDT From: Michael Rubin Subject: Movie gossip A local movie critic claims that Daryl Hannah (sp?) (the "Splash" mermaid) is going to play Ayla the Cro-Magnon cavewoman in a forthcoming production of "Clan of the Cave Bear". Sounds a bit strange to me, since in the book Ayla ages from about five to maybe fourteen, but then again she does end up taller than all the Neanderthals. Anyhow, the book is bad enough that it might make a good movie.... ------------------------------ From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Date: 28 Jun 84 8:55:53 EDT Subject: Rock and Rule RE ROCK AND RULE... If you think that's a dumb title, consider the working title, which was DRATS! I sat in on a little schtick by Melvana (the Canadian animation shop which did Rock and Rule, Animalympics, etc.) at Iguanacon and have been watching for DRATS out of the corner of my eye ever since. Best I did was a Marvel comic book made of fuzzily-screened cells out of the movie. Looked visually skillful and unutterably stupid. On the other hand, if somebody played it at a con I'd go--if that sounds like a suggestion, well, concoms, it is. Sigourney/Scirocco wrapup--looks like the ayes have it. So Scirocco had a broken nose--I don't recall any plot point turning on the brokenness of her nose. Or her looks generally; if a director wanted a pretty Scirocco I wouldn't kick too much. Sigourney Weaver has the look of high intelligence about her, which is a condition on which EVERYTHING turns in Titan/Wizard/Demon. A much tougher directorial challenge would be getting a horde of topless, full-breasted Titanides past the film censors. American nipplephobia is nothing short of astounding. By the way, I thought that robot painting on the Queen cover was from I,Robot by Asimov...somebody check, huh? I don't have the album, nor the mag from which it came. --Jeff Duntemann Something may cycle about Rochester; God knows what; maybe vultures... duntemann.wbst@xerox.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jun 1984 1216-EDT From: John Redford Subject: "Ring of Power" aka "Rock and Rule" It sounds like "Rock and Rule" is being re-released as "Ring of Power" at the LA Filmex. Good, I liked it a lot when I saw it in Boston a while ago. Sure it had a hokey ending, but there were some great touches in it. Eg, the aging rock superstar (named "Mock", who could they be referring to?) has a mansion that metamorhposizes into a jet-propelled zeppelin after he kidnaps the heroine. Try doing that with models, Lucasfilm! It was only showing in the smallest theaters, though, and it closed after a week. "Something Wicked This Way Comes" also closed after a week, and I also liked it. For a while there I was worried that I was poisoning all these great movies. /jlr US mail, Arpanet, EngNet: who cares? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jun 84 15:49:05 CDT From: Mike Caplinger Subject: Re: Cirocco Jones It's "Cirocco." No "S", that's the Volkswagen, and no double R. ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 24 Jun 1984 10:12:01-PDT From: insinga%elsie.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Aron K. Insinga) Subject: StarTrek[3] The ST series and (it is now clear) movies are too melodramatic. The universe is steady-state: important characters don't change, only temporaries who are passing through. Indiana Jones probably won't change either, but I think that in the adventure/comedy setting "How are you going to get out of this outrageous situation?" works much better (for 2 movies, at least) since there is less pretense about it. - Aron Insinga UUCP: {decvax, ucbvax}!decwrl!rhea!elsie!insinga ARPA: decwrl!rhea!elsie!insinga@SU-Shasta USPS: 77 Reed Road, HL2-2/H13, Hudson, MA 01749 Phone: (617) 568-4321 ------------------------------ Date: 06/28/84 10:07:55 EDT ( THURSDAY ) From: Stephen R. Balzac Subject: ST III-Spock and Pon Farr The reason Spock had never undergone Pon Farr before Amok Time was that he had been "linked" to what's her name, thus postponing the event until a pre-set time. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 2-Jul SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #128 *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Jul 84 1259-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #128 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 2 Jul 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 128 Today's Topics: Books - Clement & Salmonsen & Valentina's Sequel & The Man Who Ruled the World & Constructed Worlds & Farewell to the Master, Films - Ghostbusters & Filmex & Holes in Movies, Miscellaneous - Excelsior (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 28 Jun 84 12:41:49 PDT From: Rich Wales Subject: Inventory of SF works by Hal Clement I have listed below all the SF works by Hal Clement (AKA Harry Clement Stubbs) of which I am aware. I have read them all, by the way. NOVELS Close to Critical Cycle of Fire Iceworld Mission of Gravity Needle The Nitrogen Fix Star Light Through the Eye of a Needle SHORT STORIES Answer Assumption Unjustified Bulge Dust Rag Fireproof Halo Impediment Mistaken for Granted Question of Guilt Raindrop Stuck With It Sun Spot Technical Error The Foundling Stars The Mechanic Trojan Fall Uncommon Sense Does anyone know for sure whether this list is complete -- and if not, what am I missing, and where might I find it? Also, does anyone know whether Clement plans to write any more SF? (He is still alive, isn't he?) -- Rich ------------------------------ From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Date: 29 Jun 84 16:22:09 EDT Subject: JASalmonsen I think the warnings on Jessica Amanda Salmonsen apply to her well-known radicfem leanings. The lady is a good writer, certainly better than MZB, but her writing makes me uncomfortable. Not so much for what it says but for the underlying distrust of all things male. And yes, there is a profound irony in that--but let's not get in the habit of turning writers inside out in a public forum. I've not sampled the Tomoe Gozen (sp?) books yet, but people I trust say they are gripping and accurate. Somewhere I have a stack of fanzines dating back to 1977 or 1978, entitled "The Witch and the Chameleon" which contain a long-running and lively debate on women in SF. Sheds a lot of light on who is a sensitive critic of the sexual balance and who just hates men--and somewhere in the mess are some excellent insights on the growth of the field. If you can find this series, I say read it -- you'll learn something. --Jeff Duntemann duntemann.wbst@xerox ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jun 84 22:46:35-PDT (Tue) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!akgua!mcnc!duke!ucf-cs!giles @ From: Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Valentina Revisited (calm, later spoiler) As someone who was very vocal in his opinions concerning the original `Valentina' short story in *Analog* in May (?), I feel I should post my response to `The Crystal Ball' in the August issue. Better, but still needs improvement. >>>> Beginning mild spoiler <<<< What I feel is the most glaring deficiency in the novella is the fact that all of the characters still seem one-dimensional. Exactly one character, Steve Schiwetz, has changed/grown. We are told that he previously lost his job from "buffoonery, clownish behavior, insubordination." Later, when confronted with his past, he admits "nothing builds discipline like poverty." If he had changed *in* the story, I would call that two-dimensional. But, since the change occured *before* the story picks up, it still seems somewhat one- dimensional. The new lawyers and `hackers' are also somewhat more palatable in this story. In fact, Nathan Daniels/Harley 5000 and Roy Stark/Trig are now `establisment'. But, once again except for Steve Schiwetz, everyone seems to have fairly straightfoward roles. As a perfect example, the above two programmers are told to erase Valentina, but when they find out it is intelligent, they go against their boss's order and let it free. When their boss finds out, we find out "they're hidin', like any smart hacker would if he was in the trashfile on the boss's directory." While that is a possible behavior, I can think of another, *very* appropriate response for them. (I refrain from mentioning it for fear of ruining the suspense.) Of course, it would mean risking their jobs for a greater goal.... My impression, quite simply, is that the story is a two-dimensional matrix of one-dimensional characters. (Not *pure* white and black hats, but disappointing few greyish hats). Finally, a needless suspense `gadget' is the fact that Valentina still risks permanent `death.' Since they first formed the corporation, one of their immediate goals should have been obtaining a home base for Valentina. That way, there would be no question of Valentina, Inc., stealing services from other companies (which is occuring now, as she is using their computers & communication lines without paying for them). Furthermore, because of the facilities to produce backup copies of it, Valentina could take far greater risks at the cost of occasionally being reconstructed from backup tapes. >>>> Beginning major spoiler <<<< A last, but lethal flaw in this story concerns Valentina testifying in court. I can envision AI programs eventually testifying in court, but I can definitely not envision any sane trial judge allowing testimony over a terminal connected to a world-wide computer network. If an AI program were allowed to testify, almost certainly the court would require (1) no other terminals or communication lines connected to the machine, (2) expert testimony that the operating system present was the minimum required to run the machine, (3) the purge of all other files throughout core and disk space, and (4) expert testimony that the AI program was not modified to provide `convient' answers. A court would *not* allow a terminal to state `I am a AI program' when hundreds to thousands of users were connected to the network at the same time! After all, how is it (the court) to know that someone in Idaho Falls (or any other place) is not controlling the terminal in the courtroom? Yet, the judge finally said, "The witness, in my opinion, is competent, Gentlemen. I'm going to let the jury hear her." ave discordia going bump in the night ... bruce giles {decvax, duke}!ucf-cs!giles university of central florida giles.ucf-cs@Rand-Relay orlando, florida 32816 ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jun 84 09:05:37 PDT (Friday) From: mreilly.es@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: The Man who Ruled the World and Other Novels. Another novel in the same "sentient program" vane, is the Adolescence of P1. Unfortunately I don't remember the author's name (Any help?). Anyway it is not quite as fanciful as Michaelmas but it is somewhat unbelievable. Wouldn't be as fun if it wasn't. The book is definitely worth reading though. --Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sun 1 Jul 84 16:16:52-PDT From: M.MCLURE%LOTS-A@SU-SCORE.ARPA Subject: best constructed worlds Duntemann.wbst@xerox's liking of Varley's Titan series over all other constructed world series is interesting. I have read a few of the famous ones (Ringworld, Riverworld, Titan, etc.) but think really the first Dune book takes the cake, easily. The later Dune books are garbage. As a second choice, Asimov's Foundation series maintains its quality throughout better than all others, in my opinion. Sure, there's stilted dialogue, but the creativity persists. Stuart ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jun 84 15:59:29-PDT (Mon) From: decvax!linus!utzoo!kcarroll @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Klaatu Apologies if a munged-up version of this article was already posted; that's the way it goes. So, I'm not the only one to confuse the story "Farewell to the Master", by Harry Bates, and the Kelly Freas cover illustrating a Tom Godwin story about a military type who learned, to his dismay, that computers do >exactly< what you tell them to. Both appeared in Astounding SF; however, the Godwin story came out in 1953. Trivia question: who knows the title of Godwin's story? And another: what other story is Godwin justifiably well known for? True, the Freas cover was later adapted as a record jacket for a Queen album. It was also used as the cover illo. for an anthology edited by Harry Harrison, a "last issue of Astounding", which came out shortly after Campbell's death. As a result, three images are inextricably mixed up in my memory: my sorrow on learning of Campbell's death, the feeling of loss at the end of "Farewell to the Master", and the painting of a robot gently holding the dead body of a once- powerful man, as if asking, "Please fix it..." -Kieran A. Carroll ...decvax!utzoo!kcarroll ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jun 1984 10:27:00-EDT From: carol at mit-cipg at mit-mc ************Ghostbusters SPOILER******************** No, I agree with Ben Walls. Before Sigourney Weaver started having problems, the Ghostbusters had captured the thing in the ritzy hotel, and I think a couple of others, and put them in their toaster. One of the first things the Keeper confides to ...somebody, I forget who... is that when he finds Zool "All the prisoners will be freed." I liked that touch: these defectives cause a horrendous mess, then become heroes for cleaning it up at the expense of a great deal of property damage. I thought the film was hilarious, and guffawed throughout it amidst the stony silence of the rest of the small audience. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Jun 1984 00:56 EDT From: RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: Peter Reiher Subject: sf at Filmex Date: Tuesday, 19 June 1984 15:09-EDT From: Peter Reiher To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC Re: sf at Filmex July 17 "Ring of Power" "Clive A. Smith's phantasmagorical animated feature about a diabolical, aging rock 'n' roll superstar is set in a post-apocalyptic metropolis and features the voices of Paul LeMat and Catherine O'Hara, and the music of Lou Reed, Iggy Pop, Deborah Harry, Cheap Trick, and Earth, Wind, and Fire." This is almost certainly a re-release of "Rock and Rule", a picture which bit the big one last year, made by Nelvana, a Canadian animation house. This, by the way, is the film that convinced Nelvana to stop doing animated movies (and consequently drop the Elfquest movie...) James M. Turner ARPA: RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC JMTURN@MIT-MC UUCP: Left as an exercise to the reader ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jun 84 14:58:34-PDT (Tue) From: decvax!dartvax!karl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Holes in movies More to the point, instead of idly discussing what is so bad about movies, and explaining that it is so bad because ``the product will sell anyway'', why not hit the problem at its roots, and (a) don't go to movies that you hear to be bad. ( of course, most people prefer to make up their own minds about this, which leaves: ) (b) if it is bad, write to the producer/writer/anyone else you can think of, and tell them. They do actually listen. Even television people read mail, movie people must too. {decvax,cornell,astrovax,uvm-gen,colby}!dartvax!karl;karl@dartmouth ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 28 Jun 1984 14:21:39-PDT From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (The Stainless Steel Rat) Subject: Excelsior, etc., ad nauseam This discussion does seem to have moved rather far afield from SF, but... > I haven't looked into the American Heritage Dictionary > recently, but SURELY it gives the wood chips/packing > material as the second definition? > Nope! It is the only definition given. > Is the American Heritage the one Nero Wolfe was burning > page by page because it claimed that "infer" and "imply" > were equivalent? O tempora, O mores. (O the tempura, O > the morels) O DI immortales! Dii manes, but I'm fascinated to learn that there are other Latin lovers about! And I do like morels, too. > Actually, in my edition (1974), they take great pains to make sure > one understands the two words are "carefully distinguished in > modern usage.... not interchangeable." > However it is a cruddy dictionary, I have been looking for any > dictionary where I can find the definition of "perjorative" (sic?) > or instantiate. Anyone got one? Can't wait to get my Oxford > English Dictionary on a chip. Why bless my bones, and isn't deja vu wonderful! 'Twas just last year that I witnessed a friend suffering from the selfsame lamentable complaint. Well sir, I have just what the doctor ordered, the wonder tonic of the century! It's called the Oxford AMERICAN Dictionary (fancy that!), and it contains the following definitions (pronunciations, etc., omitted for lack of a sufficient character set): excelsior: interj. (as a motto etc.) higher. imply: v. 1. to suggest without stating directly, to hint. infer: v. 1. to reach an opinion from facts or reasoning. 2. to imply. ( >this use should be avoided because it conceals the distinction between infer and imply.) instantiate: v. to represent by an instance. pejorative: adj. disparaging, derogatory. We should all bear in mind what dictionaries REALLY are, as explained in the soon-to-be-released CURMUDGEON'S DICTIONARY: DICTIONARY: A collection of what the editors fondly hope passes for educational material, intended to record how words are used. Widely believed to prescribe the correct usage of language, in consequence of which belief the language is rapidly going to hell in a handbasket. Dictionaries are not entirely without merit, however; they often earn their editors large sums of money. Cheers, Dick Binder (The Stainless Steel Rat) UUCP:{ decvax, allegra, ucbvax }!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-dosadi!binder ARPA:binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ From: Steve Platt Subject: Excelsior: The Word (Am. Heritage Dict.) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 84 12:31 EDT Since my copy of it is handy... your definition of excelsior is correct from the AHD, but you miss a few points: "excelsior" as wood shavings is a *noun*. The postnote for the definition says "[Originally a trade name, from Latin, comparative of excelsus, high, from the past participle of excellere, to EXCEL.]" The definition of "excel" is pretty much what you would expect it to be. There is no listing of when the trade name dates to, but the ship name of excelsior probably predates it, and probably refers more to its Latin roots than businessperson applications. In other words, people, it is an archaic adjective. Like "Defiant", etc. -steve ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Jun 84 13:23 MST From: "Ronald B. Harvey" Subject: Excelsior Here's what Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable has to say on the subject: Excelsior (Lat. higher). Aim at higher things still. It is the motto of the United States and has been made popular by Longfellow's poem so named. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 3-Jul SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #129 *** EOOH *** Date: 3 Jul 84 1613-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #129 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 3 Jul 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 129 Today's Topics: Books - Vance & SF Pronounciation & Farewell to the Master, Films - 2001 Poster & Clan of the Cave Bear & Sigourney Weaver & Spielberg & Star Wars (2 msgs), Television - Dr. Who (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Excelsior (2 msgs) & Star Trek the Game ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 2 Jul 84 23:41:09 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: "Lyonesse" by Jack Vance I'd like to put in an enthusiastic plug for Jack Vance's "Lyonesse", a new or relatively new work of fantasy. Vance is one of the few science fiction authors who really know how to write, rather than just how to string together plot and gimmicks. "Lyonesse" is a fine example of his work. "Lyonesse", unlike his Dying Earth books, is in the form of an extended fairy tale for adults. The language is not as wryly baroque, but is still quite rich, and very funny in the appropriate places. The story concerns a mythical continent, now sunk beneath the waves, during the early middle ages. It is a land of fairies and magic, at least more so than the rest of Europe, relatively untouched by Christianity. (Vance does not give a very portrait of that religion, which might offend those born again.) The continent is divided up into several kingdoms, and is threatened by invasion by the ruthless Ska, who consider all other humans little better than animals. Several of the kings scheme to reunite the realms under one rule. Powerful wizards remain mostly aloof in the background. But this isn't really the story of great policy, but rather the tale of a beautiful, forlorn princess, a betrayed prince, their lost child, and a wizard with a softer heart than is usual among his kind. The book is filled with death defying escapes, battles, treachery, magic, and quests, one leading to another. There are suitably nasty villains, who, rather uniquely, have their points of view, too, and are not mere stick figures of evil. There are also many characters who combine good traits and bad. Vance is one author in sf who knows how to create real characters, and isn't afraid to sacrifice them, when necessary. "Lyonesse" is a fairly long book (over 400 pages of fairly small type) and leaves you wanting more. Just as well, then, that this is the first book of a series of unspecified length. Vance's is the most impressive fantasy world I've encountered since my mother read me "The Lord of the Rings" (a looong time ago). I recommend it without reservation. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jun 84 5:38:15-PDT (Thu) From: ihnp4!mit-eddie!rh @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: SF Pronunciation I think that what I do with unpronounceables is about what I do with really long names: just use the random collection of letters as a pointer to the character that my mind has assembled. Of course, this will only occur after several mentions of the character. Another help is that if the character is ever referred to by a nickname, I will usually use that as a handle. I try to stay over 400 wpm (I don't time myself, I'm just estimating based on my max of 800 on newspaper articles (narrow columns) and 600 on most books), so I usually don't labor over the name. I just finished "Time Enough for Love," and I was thrown a little by the fact that Hamadryad was referred to as Hamadear, Hamadarling, and other such things. Once, someone was asking a question, and to address it to her added "Ham?" I thought he was asking if anyone wanted some of the salted pig meat. (She's also called Hammy, and that's very funny to us at this facility, but the rest of you won't get it...) -- Randwulf (Randy Haskins); Path= genrad!mit-eddie!rh ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jun 84 0:05:40-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!ames-lm!barry @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Klaatu (and Queen/ASF) Lest there be any lingering confusion: 1) The ASF cover which inspired the album cover for Queen's "News of the World" is from the 10/53 issue, was done by Frank Kelly Freas, and illustrates a Tom Godwin story, "The Gulf Between". 2) The story "Farewell To The Master", by Harry Bates (on which the movie "The Day the Earth Stood Still" was loosely based) appeared in the 10/40 issue of ASF, 13 years before the cover, and is totally unrelated. On to trivia; utzoo!kcaroll asked what story Tom Godwin was best known for - it's "The Cold Equations" (ASF, 8/54). Now, a tougher question. Now that we know that the Freas "robot" cover was not from the same issue as "Farewell To The Master"... what story *was* illustrated on the cover of the 10/40 ASF in which "Farewell To The Master" appeared (hint: it was not FTTM)? Queen seems fond of science fiction - I recommend watching for their current music video, "Radio Ga-Ga", for another example of this. It includes many clips from Fritz Lang's "Metropolis", and other parts that imitate scenes from the film. Pretty good song, too. Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA Electric Avenue: {dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames-lm!barry ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jun 84 11:17 PDT From: Tom Perrine Subject: 2001 poster Does anyone have or know where I could find *any* kind of poster showing anything about 2001 the movie (or book). Price is definitely an object, as I am not a serious collector. Thanks, Tom Perrine {tom@logicon> ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jun 84 17:29 EDT (Fri) From: Mijjil (Matthew J Lecin) Subject: Movie gossip, Clan of the Cave Bear I have not read same, but my mother (a 6th grade school teacher) liked "Clan of the Cave Bear". Mike Rubin - why do you think its so bad? As to Darryl Hannah playing "Ayla", it is more than common for older mid-20's actors and actresses to play teens. Isn't the star of "The Karate Kid" in his early 20's? From the outside looking in, {Mijjil} ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jun 84 7:04:56-PDT (Wed) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!rdin!abs @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Sigourney Weaver Perry (Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA) says (about Sigourney Weaver): "... she hasn't had a good role since 'Alien'" C'mon, Perry! What about "The Year of Living Dangerously"? She played a character far deeper than the one she played in "Alien". (The movie was quite a bit better, as well.) I think that she'd make a great Scirocco Jones, incidently, regardless of her nose and beauty. Andrew B. Siegel (with regards to Andrew D. Sigel) philabs!rdin!abs ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jul 84 11:14:21 PDT (Tuesday) Subject: Article about Spielberg's films From: Kevin Recently there was some mention of trends in Spielberg films. For a thought-provoking article that discusses a trend see "Why Steven Spielberg Has Gone Over the Brink Into Violence in 'Indiana Jones'" by Michael Ventura in the L.A. Weekly (It's probably been reprinted in many places; I found it in the Sunday San Francisco Chronicle Datebook, Sunday, June 24th, p. 35.) Basically, it shows that all his films have "the chase of the unknown vs. man, the man vs. the unknown and finally, chaos." An important point to consider, which this article doesn't, is that there are people other than Spielberg who wrote some of these movies. ~Kevin ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jun 84 15:37:24-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!nsc!chongo @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: SW I or SW VII? at USENIX, some Lucasfilm folks were being asked (as I'm sure they get asked too many times...) about the next movie. anyway the Lucasfilm people correctly did not respond. but one of the persons doing the asking was saying that the next film might be SW VII and not SW I. anyone know about this matter? chongo /\zz/\ ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jun 84 8:53:20-PDT (Thu) From: ihnp4!mgnetp!ltuxa!tty3b!ponce @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Continuity error in STAR WARS - the ANSWER Yes. They show a white cloud effect. ------------------------------ Date: Fri 29 Jun 84 09:00:47-EDT From: FIRTH%TARTAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA Subject: Jelly babies Jelly babies are not at all like jelly beans (does Ronald Reagan REALLY call them Gelly beans?). Jelly babies are shaped like little people - arms, legs, head - and are soft, mildly flavoured, and delicious. Jelly beans have a hard shell, much stronger flavour, and are shaped like beans. Jelly babies are very popular in England, probably second only to "liquorice comfits" (somewhat like "torpedoes"). The export of jelly babies to Gallifrey makes no significant contribution to the British balance of trade. "Hello, what are you?" - Robert Firth ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jun 84 21:34:56-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!uw-june!gordon @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Dr. Who memorabilia From _BBC Doctor Who 20th Anniversary Special_: "If you wanted to, you could now sit in your room, with Doctor Who wallpaper, or Doctor Who ceramic tiles on the wall, sipping coffee from a Doctor Who mug, and nibbling on a Doctor Who Chew Bar, or Easter egg, while you admire your collection of Doctor Who dolls, your Tardis pencil box, and Doctor Who posters, or alternatively you could play with your Doctor Who yo-yo, or browse through your collection of over 80 Doctor Who books. "If it all got too much for you, you could change into your Doctor Who underpants (if you're a chap), your Doctor Who sweatshirt and Doctor Who baseball cap, take a few coins out of your Doctor Who moneybox and go down to your local arcade to play a Doctor Who video game on a Tardis-shaped machine..." And from later in the article: "'The major consideration is whether or not the product is relevant to the programme', said Christopher Crouch, of BBC Enterprises." Okay. But anyway, if you're interested in books or posters (the two items that I know are available in the states; anyone else out there in net.land know of any other products?), talk to your local comic-book store; they usually have sources they can order from (sorry, grammar fans: "sources from which they can order"). I have a couple of posters, including a nice one of the Tardis (the proprietor of the store, when he got them in, said "why would anyone want a poster of a telephone booth?"). "Are you in charge here?" "No, but I'm full of ideas!" Human: Jamie Green @ Gordon's Account UUCP: {ihnp4,decvax,tektronix}!uw-beaver!uw-june!gordon ARPA: gordon@uw-june Gordon hates flames, so send 'em in! ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jun 84 15:27 EDT From: Denber.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: Excelsior else "I hardly think New York calls itself the Excelsior State because of its overwhelming lumber industry." Well actually New York doesn't call itself the "Excelsior State" at all. New York is the Empire State (as in Building). New York's *motto* is Excelsior. You're welcome. "In DWIM We Trust" - Michel ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jun 84 09:04 PDT From: Tom Perrine Subject: Excelsior and Dictionaries Where are you people buying your dictionaries these days? My "Webster's New World Dictionary" has the definition and derivation of excelsior: "excelsior () adj, interj [see EXCEL] always upward --- n. long thin wood shavings use for packing." Not bad for $2.50. Who needs the Oxford-on-a-chip? Tom Perrine "engineeers kant spel gud." {tom@LOGICON.ARPA} ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Jun 84 11:33:29 pdt From: Subject: Star Trek - Space Battles Frederick Paul Kiesche III recently made a reference to the Task Force Games products, _Star_Fleet_Battles_ and _Federation_Space_ which provide a gaming version of the Star Trek universe. These products, designed largely by a gentleman by the name of Stephen V. Cole have always provided a much more rational handling of the Star Trek universe than have the series or films. For one thing, when he designs ships he makes them much more sound engineering. For another, the games weapon systems are more consistent and the tactics correct than we've seen in series or film. The only thing I've ever taken issue with the game was the introduction of the Kzin race but that's not Cole's fault but rather Larry Niven's for adapting one of his short stories from a Known Space story (The Soft Weapon) into a Star Trek one; and what Kzin and Slaver Empires are doing in the Star Trek Universe, nobody knows. There is a major error that few people pick up on; and that is that the Star Trek ship designs do not take into account the three dimensional characteristics of space battle. The Enterprise ( and all Klingon designs ) have immense angles through which they cannot fire their weapons. The photons (which moved from the upper saucer surface to the hull pylon between the Five Year Mission and _Star_Dreck_The_Boring_Picture_ ) fire almost straight forward. There is no phaser system capable of firing to below-rear at all. In fact, the only 3-D battle we've seen is in STII and it was a bit silly. Instead of attempting to approach the Reliant from an unexpected angle, ( remember everyone was on visual ) Kirk just moves straight "down" for a bit ( "3rd Floor - Vulcan underwear, Klingon sexual devices, Romulan marital aids ") and then back "up". Not really my idea of 3-D thinking. Believe it or not, the most thought out space tactics I've seen comes from E.E. "Doc" Smith's _Lensman_ series. Flying Cone tactics and cylinder formations. Robin D. Roberts TTI - Citicorp AT&T (213) 450 - 9111 x 2916 vortex!ttidca!ttidcb!robertsb aka Buskirk the Valerian Death to Tyrants ! Death to Boskone ! This has been a service of the Galactic Patrol News Service. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 6-Jul SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #130 *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Jul 84 1400-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #130 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 6 Jul 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 130 Today's Topics: Art - Record Covers (2 msgs), Books - Asimov & Clement (2 msgs) & Piper & Cthulhu & SF Pronunciation & Constructed Worlds & The Cold Equations & Medea, Films - Gremlins & Ghostbusters, Television - Dr. Who ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 2 Jul 84 12:53:59 edt From: csin!cjh@cca-unix Subject: QUEEN album cover Cc: lindsay%tartan@cmu-cs-c Sorry, Don, but the album cover in question has nothing to do with either the book or the movie. JMB, as 1/2 of Two Wild and Crazy Indexers, will probably have the exact reference, but I recall from Freas' showcase/ autobiography, the original was 1. Freas' first cover for ASTOUNDING 2. Done for a Tom Godwin story (not "The Cold Equations", but the same sort of "The universe is absolutely indifferent to us, which is as bad as if it actively hated us" tripe) 3. repainted by Freas at the band's request (the original had one slightly bloody, typically-built male corpse instead of a cluster of upstanding frippie heaks). Apparently they invited Freas to a concert in an airplane hangar to see them in action, and he was foolish enough to go without earplugs. . . . ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jul 84 11:19:33 EDT From: Brian Charles Sudis Subject: METROPOLIS and RECORD COVERS Well how about both front and back covers of the Be Bop Delux "LIVE IN THE AIR AGE"!! I tend to like that one above most SF covers that I have seen! (but what do I know) bsudis@bbncct.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jun 84 16:01:32-PDT (Sat) From: ihnp4!ihlpf!ARPA @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: "Re: Inventory of SF works by Hal Clement - (nf)" any brave soul out there DARE to try isaac asimov? i've got 50+ of his books, but that's just a drop in the bucket. what's amazing is these aren't rehashes of the same old story. most aren't even fiction. "pick a topic, any topic..." ron (replies to: ihnp4!ihdev!rjv) ps: how close is asimov to breaking the 300 mark (books published), or has he already? ------------------------------ Date: 03 Jul 84 19:13:40 PDT (Tue) To: Rich Wales Subject: Re: Inventory of SF works by Hal Clement From: "Jim Hester" Here are some short stories you missed, & all I know about them: "Proof" copyright 1942 by Street & Smith Publications first published in 'Astounding Science Fiction' June 1942 printed in 'SF: Authors' Choice 2' ed by Harry Harrison Berkley Medallian Books 1970 also printed in 'Where do We Go From Here' ed by Isaac Asimov Doubleday & Company, Inc. 1971 "Hot Planet" copyright 1963 by Galaxy Publishing Corporation in 'The 9th Annual of the Year's Best SF' ed by Judith Merril Simon and Schuster, Inc 1964 "The Logical Life" copyright 1974 by Ballantine Books first printed in 'Stellar #1' ed by Judy-Lynn del Rey note: NOT 'Stellar' - that's a DIFFERENT anthology by del Rey Ballantine Books 1974 ------------------------------ From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Date: 3 Jul 84 8:16:09 EDT Subject: Constructed as in BUILT, guys... There was a Hal Clement story I didn't see on that list: "Seasoning," which was part of a rather silly series of "shared world" stories surrounding a planet which Harlan Ellison designed (not built.) It was in IASFM about four years ago, and involved baloon creatures and a supercomputer named Black Diamond (chummily referred to as "Beedee.") Definitely minor Clement, but if you're a completist... --Jeff Duntemann The Carbon Filament Rat duntemann.wbst@xerox ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jul 84 14:44 EST From: Andrew D. Sigel Subject: FUZZIES AND OTHER PEOPLE by H. Beam Piper The final Fuzzy book written by H. Beam Piper, FUZZIES AND OTHER PEOPLE, has just been published by Ace Books. I hope it will be the last novel ever published about these beings; I feel certain Piper intended it to be, just from having read it. Piper was writing a future history at the time of his death, and the first Fuzzy novel, LITTLE FUZZY, was intended to be a one-shot, but the little critters proved so popular that he wrote a sequel, and, we now see, another sequel. The novel feels right. FUZZY BONES by William Tuning, written when it seemed that the "lost" novel would stay lost, tried very hard to capture Piper's style and nearly succeeded, but it shifted scene too often, and was a little too cute at times. FUZZIES AND OTHER PEOPLE also continues the story from the end of FUZZY SAPIENS, and does so in a way that works better, given the characters as presented. Piper does take a few easy ways out, and the plot really isn't much to hang a book on, but I have always wanted to see how Piper would handle scenes that just had Fuzzies against the wilderness (as in the Ardath Mayhar book GOLDEN DREAM), so I guess I'm satisfied. I suppose the thing I'm least happy with is Piper's final conclusion of the sapience level of Fuzzies. When all is said and done, I prefer Tuning's explanation, especially as it fits so nicely with the titanium requirement in the Fuzzy diet. It does have to come from somewhere, and Piper shouldn't have failed to explain it. If you've read any of the other Fuzzy books, you should get this one. If you haven't, I'd start with LITTLE FUZZY first. It's too bad that Piper isn't around to enjoy his success; Ace Books is making a mint off it, and if he'd known what would happen, maybe he would have kept writing instead of committing suicide. Andrew D. Sigel (with regards to Andrew B. Siegel) ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jul 84 11:08:05 EDT From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst Subject: Follow-up to Cthulhu Mythos request As it's been a month since my original request for pointers to additional Cthulhu Mythos stories, I thought I should honor my promise to summarize my results for SF-LOVERS everywhere. Unfortunately for me, no one was able to add substanially to my list, nor could anyone give me pointers to the Berglund bibliography. Bob Webber told me about Robert's Bloch's MYSTERIES OF THE WORM; Carl Powell gave we WORM and Bloch's mythos novel, STRANGE EONS. While I thank these folks, I did have these books already and simply forgot to add Bloch's name to the original list. Carl also mentioned the Hastur/Carcosa stories by Ambrose Bierce, the stories of Arthur Machen, and Robert Chambers's THE KING IN YELLOW. These may be considered "source material" for Mythos stories, but as they were written well before Lovecraft created Cthulhu, they're not Mythos stories, as such. Winston Edmond called my attention to the Avon paperback NECRONOMICON, as did Carl. I've avoided this book because a) it's not Cthulhu fiction, and b) it's a fake. I suspect the author is somehow connected with Satanist Anton Szandor LaVey, who once wrote some Cthulhu rituals for one of his "Satanic Bibles". However, Carl also mentioned another NECRONOMICON, which I'd be interested in seeing. I quote his paragraph in full: "There are also two books out about the Necronomicon. Necronomicon, published by Avon (I think) and The Necronomicon, published by Corgi. The former is a bunch of Persian (I think) mythology revised by someone named Simon, while the latter is supposedly a decryption of the book brought back from the court of Stanislaus IV (?), king of Poland, by John Dee, a mystic from Elizabethan times. The latter also contains a lot of conjectures about how Lovecraft might have gotten ahold of the book, biographical data, etc. Much more informative than the former. It is edited by George Hay. I got my copy in a book store in Ireland, and have yet to see a copy in the States." Let's get this straight: the Necronomicon, the real Necronomicon, doesn't exist. Lovecraft admitted inventing it. He forged bibliographical data for it (HIST. & CHRON. OF THE NECR.), and did it so well that many folks thought it was a real book. BUT he may have seen some occult tome and used it as source material. This may be what Hay's book is. In any event, I'd like to see a copy of it. Any further info on it, anyone? Finally, a repeat plea: what I'm looking for are places where Mythos stories may have been anthologized. SHORT STORY INDEX doesn't cover every anthology, nor is it useful unless I have particular authors/titles I'm looking for. I want stuff I haven't heard of yet, as well as stuff I have heard of but haven't read. Please see my earlier request in SF-LOVERS for details; it's too long to reproduce here. Thanks to those who responded; Cthulhu fthagn! Chris Jarocha-Ernst JAROCHA-ERNST@RU-BLUE ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jun 84 16:01:12-PDT (Sat) From: ihnp4!ihlpf!rh @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: "Re: Re: SF Pronunciation - (nf)" so, i'm not the only one who blows off trying to pronounce names that don't look like 'jones' or 'harry'. i do the same thing in a lot of stories: if the name isn't like the above mentioned, i just look at it, and don't even TRY to pronounce it. one problem with this method, however - what happens in class when you have to write an essay about a book and you can't remember the names of the characters?? i could only recognize them if i saw them. what a terrible habit, i really should break myself of it. BUT i refuse to actually slow the ol' mental process down (mine's slow enough, anyway!) just to read the sentence "but zjakp, how can the thporzp dynasty live without the blessing of muqka-cvc?", asked cffta. "ok, ok, get to the science fiction part," the net yells! well, this got me to thinking about all the wonderful(?) sf names i've read before. i think one of the reason asimov is at the top of my list is most of his futuristic names were....well, they were realistic. pronouncible. i just went and grabbed the first asimov book i had laying around (foundations edge) and started looking for some names at random. gendibal, preem palver, trevize, branno, quintesetz...... that was just skimming a few pages. i can SAY those out loud. i LIKE that feature in a name. so, the big debate begins: should futuristic names be any damn thing the author feels, adding a sense of 'not of this world/time', or should they be something like 'danell olivaw' (now THAT'S a good futuristic name. you KNOW it came from 'daniel oliver', and that makes it all the better. (he was a robot, by the by...)) let's hear ideas on: what should the names look like, who has the best names for his/her characters, who has the worst, most memorable sf names my god ron! this topic deals with sf. it's going to allow people to reminisce about old sf stories they haven't read in years, more experienced readers to pass on little tidbits of information to the less experienced readers (me), and you forgot to mention star-trek III. GOOD! it's about time we got some new topics in this notesgroup. now here's a name: ron vaughn (replies to ihdev!rjv) ps, i'm already waiting for some smart-ass B-) to go digging into his asimov books and pull out a 'xxygbm' like name. i'm sure there's one (or more) out there, but I'M not gonna' find them. ------------------------------ From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Date: 3 Jul 84 8:16:09 EDT Subject: Constructed as in BUILT, guys... No, no! You got it wrong! When I spoke of "constructed worlds" I meant more than just "built systematically in the head of a writer." I meant a planet or planet-sized thingie which was put together out of whole cloth or reworked wholesale (a la Riverworld) for some purpose. L5 tincan worlds like Rosinante and Bova's Colony are small change. I mean BIIIIG. Ringworld. Cuckoo. Riverworld. Gaea. Artifacts or complete crustal reconstructions. Did I miss any? --Jeff Duntemann The Carbon Filament Rat duntemann.wbst@xerox ------------------------------ From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Date: 3 Jul 84 8:16:09 EDT Subject: Constructed as in BUILT, guys... Tom Godwin is, of course, famous for "The Cold Equations," a story I never bought anyway. It's been 20 years since I read it, but it seems as though they could have unbolted a chair and thrown in out the door instead of the girl. What we in the trade call "idiot plot." --Jeff Duntemann The Carbon Filament Rat duntemann.wbst@xerox ------------------------------ From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Date: 3 Jul 84 8:16:09 EDT Subject: Constructed as in BUILT, guys... By the way, did that anthology (called MEDEA: Harlan's World) ever hit print? None of the stories fit in with any of the others; some made the baloon things intelligent and some did not; one writer gave them the ability to move about at will like dirigibles without saying how; stuff like that. A mess, like most anything Harlan gets his fingers into. Illigitimati non carborundum, you latin hacks-- --Jeff Duntemann The Carbon Filament Rat duntemann.wbst@xerox ------------------------------ Date: Tue 3 Jul 84 22:50:49-EDT From: TYG%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Gremlins ripoff (minor spoiler) Did no one else notice that in addition to ripping off every movie they could get their hands on, Spielberg, Dante, and Columbus also ripped off a Gahan Wilson cartoon? In the scene where the girl is explaining why she hates Xmas, she tells how, when she was 9, her father dressed up as Santa Claus and tried to come down the chimney. But he slipped and broke his neck and stayed there until the odor caused them to call a sweep. This is very much like a favorite Gahan of mine where some sweeps are pulling out a skeleton dressed in a Santa suit from a fireplace. The caption is something like: "Well, we found what's been blocking your chimney since last December Ma'mm". Steal from one, it's plagarism. Steal from a lot and its research or a tribute. tom galloway ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jul 84 19:16 CDT From: Giebelhaus@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Ghostbusters ***************** SPOILER ******************* I disagree with Ben Walls and Carol. The building was built long ago. Surely it was built before any of the busters was born and the building surly had alot to do with attracting Zool and Co. The building was ment to attract the destruction of the world with, or without, the help of any ghostbusters. Second, the ghost started acting up before they put their toaster to work. There was the one in the library and the one in the hotel which had both been very quiet till late. I think that it was the coming that got them all stirred up. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jul 1984 11:29-PDT From: Tom Wadlow Subject: Re: Dr. Who memorabilia "If you wanted to, you could now sit in your room, with Doctor Who wallpaper, or Doctor Who ceramic tiles on the wall, sipping coffee from a Doctor Who mug, and nibbling on a Doctor Who Chew Bar, or Easter egg, while you admire your collection of Doctor Who dolls, your Tardis pencil box, and Doctor Who posters, or alternatively you could play with your Doctor Who yo-yo, or browse through your collection of over 80 Doctor Who books." Quite a few years ago a guy named Mike Jittlov made an excellent (and very funny) short stop-motion film about a guy who had *every* piece of Mickey Mouse memorabilia ever made. Perhaps it is time he made "Memorabilia II: Dr. Who"...... --Tom P.S. Jittlov is very popular at many of the West Coast science fiction conventions (I don't know if he makes it to anywhere else). If you get the chance, go see his work. Especially the Wizard of Speed and Time. It's all shoestring budget but amazingly good stuff. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 7-Jul SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #131 *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Jul 84 1055-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #131 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 7 Jul 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 131 Today's Topics: Books - SF Pronunciation & Best SF 83 Book Exchange & Story Request, Films - Ghostbusters & Sigourney Weaver & Gremlins & The Last Starfighter (2 msgs), Television - The Day of the Triffids ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Friday, 6 Jul 1984 06:28:03-PDT From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (The Stainless Steel Rat) Being a lover of English who has also a smattering of other languages, I make my best effort at pronunciation of unusual names. For me there is a loss of pleasure if I can't savour the sound of a word. It's quite interesting that even a simple word can receive two radically different treatments; "Dosadi", from Frank Herbert's "The Dosadi Experiment", (and also my system name) is an example. It can be pronounced either as "DOE-suh-dye" or "Doe-SAH-dee". Which sounds better? I think the second does, but if someone else prefers the first, that's understandable. Weird, but understandable. :-) Often, deliberately or not, the author has given a clue to the correct pronunciation. "Klaatu" is an example of this. The "aa" sound is one that appears in Scandinavian languages and also in Dutch. In Swedish, it is written as an "a" with a small circle over it, and it represents a very broad "awh" sound. (It's transliterated into English by the doubled "a".) In Dutch, it is written as "aa" and represents a broad "ah"; thus, it's a fairly safe bet to assume that it ought NOT to be pronounced like a short "a" as in "bat". Sometimes one must search rather far afield for the phonetics. The name of the human ship in "First Contact" was "Llanvabon" - this word could be of Spanish origin, with the "Ll" at its beginning, but it more likely has Welsh roots, and the sound in Welsh of the "Ll" is "Thl", making "Thlan-VAH-bon" a fairly good guess at the name. At the other end of the scale, an author may state explicitly that there is no correct pronunciation available to English speakers; this is the line chosen by Heinlein in "Glory Road" - after a few lines of italicized transliterations, the Hero states that he won't try to render any more Nevian into English sounds. Cheers, Dick Binder (The Stainless Steel Rat) UUCP:{ decvax, allegra, ucbvax... }!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-dosadi!binder ARPA: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jul 84 9:34:18-PDT (Mon) From: ucbcad!tektronix!orca!iddic!brucec @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Best SF 83 Book Exchange Just got my latest LOCUS complete with the "LOCUS poll" results. I try to read most of the books on their list, just because I've found from experience that their recommendations match my taste. Here is the list for BEST SF NOVEL: I've read I've got 1. Startide Rising D. Brin x 2. The Robots of Dawn I. Asimov x 3. Millenium J. Varley x 4. Helliconia Summer B. Aldiss o 5. The Void Captains Tale N. Spinrad x x 6. Moreta: Dragonlady of Pern A. McCaffrey o 7. Thendara House M. Z. Bradley o 8. Against Infinity G. Benford x x 9. Orion Shall rise P. Anderson o 10. The Nonborn King J. May o 11. Superliminal V. Mcintyre o 12. Welcome, Chaos K. Wilhelm o 13. The Crucible of Time J. Brunner o 14. Worlds Apart J. Haldeman o 15. Valentine Pontifex R. Silverberg o 16. God of the Riverworld P.J. Farmer o 17. The Citadel of the Autarch G. Wolfe x 18. Forty Thousand in Gehenna C.J. Cherryh o 19. A Matter for Men D. Gerrold o 20. Birth of People's Republic of Antartica J. Calvino 21. Wall Around a Star F. Pohl x x 22. Golden Witchbreed M. Gentle o 23. Broken Symmetries P. Preus o 24. Roderick at Random J. Sladel o 25. There is No Darkness J & J Haldeman x x 26. Code of the Lifemaker J. Hogan o 27. Tik-Tok J. Sladek o 28. Transformer M.Foster o They also list 26 BEST FANTASY NOVELS, and 10 BEST First Novels, with the winners The Mists of Avalon M Z Bradley and Tea with the Black Dragon R A MacAvoy respectively. So here's a deal: Have you got any of these in paperback? Would you like any of the ones I have in paperback? Fourth Class Special Book Rate can't be very expensive for a paperback. I'd certainly be willing to mail mine. If interested, RSVP to UUCP ...!tektronix!iddic!brucec (I'm sure) CSNET iddic!brucec@tektronix (I think) ARPA iddic!brucec.tektronix@rand-relay (I think) "I feel more like I do now than I did when I first got here." Bruce Cheney ------------------------------ From: berch@lll-tis (Michael Berch) Date: Fri Jul 6 15:55:59 1984 Subject: Trying to Find a Story Cc: ./arpanet/netstuff@lll-tis For about 8 years I have been trying to locate a story that I once read, probably in an anthology. It probably was published in the mid- to late-1960's. The central image of the story was a totalitarian, highly regimented city where life became more intolerable by the day. One of the worst things that happened to our protagonists (a married couple?) was that the government changed the length of the day through "The Department of Time Distribution". The outlook was dark but not without humor. Can someone point me to the title, author, and anthology or magazine reference? The mood was similar to P.K. Dick, Farmer, or Ballard, but I have researched bibliographies of these authors and cannot find the story. It is definitely not Ballard's "Chronopolis"; Ellison's "Repent, Harlequin...; Farmer's "Sketches Among the Ruins of My Mind"; nor Farmer's "Sliced-Crosswise-Only-on-Tuesday-World"; though it has many things in common with these stories. Thanks in advance. Michael Berch berch@lll-tis ucbvax!lbl-csam!lll-tis!berch ------------------------------ From: ihnp4!vortex!ttidca!ttidcb!robertsb@Berkeley Date: 5 Jul 84 18:15:19 CDT (Thu) Subject: Ghostbusters Now wait a minute, I just last evening saw Ghostbusters and noticed some things in reference to some discussions here. First, Sigourney Weaver was their FIRST client. It was so stated when she walked into the converted firehouse. That means that "Zool" was making a mess of her refrigerator before Ghostbusters had collected their first apparition. Second, don't forget all that stuff about the origin of the building she lived in. What with the Gozer (sic) worshipping architect and the `antenna' framework. Onward to my own comments, my favorite scene is in the basement of the NY Public Library where they rush up to the apparition of the little ol' lady librarian and say `boo' and she `boo's' back a little more effectively. I didn't get the impression of a group of incompetents cleaning up their own mess. No, I got the impression of a group of people armed with technology but little idea of what they were really dealing with/in. If there was a moral-to-this-story in Ackroyd and Ramis' minds ( even sub-consciously ) this was it. Robin D. Roberts "Death to Tyrants !" "Long live the Galactic Patrol" AT&T: (213) 450-9111 x 2916 Net: ...!ihnp4!vortex!ttidca!ttidcb!robertsb ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jul 84 12:36:01 PDT (Thursday) From: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: Sigourney Weaver >Perry (Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA) says (about Sigourney Weaver): > > "... she hasn't had a good role since 'Alien'" > >C'mon, Perry! What about "The Year of Living Dangerously"? She >played a character far deeper than the one she played in "Alien". >(The movie was quite a bit better, as well.) I think that she'd >make a great Scirocco Jones, incidently, regardless of her nose and >beauty. "The Year of Living Dangerously" was an excellent first half movie. That is, the first half was wonderful, but it seemed to run out of steam. The ending was ambivalent and unsatisfying. But to the point: Sigourney's part could just barely be considered more than a bit part. Sure, she provided the "important" plot turn for the hero, Mel Gibson, but for the most part she was mere window dressing. An excuse for a steamy love affair. Any way, What's-her-face-that-got-Best-Supporting-Acctress by playing the part of the male photographer stole the show. And just to keep this message pertinent: If you've seen "Silkwood", you might agree with me that Cher would probably make a better Cirocco than Weaver. I kid you not! (... click-clack ... click-clack ...) Hell, if you could put up with all the protests and jazzercise, Jane Fonda would make a decent Cirocco! Perry ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jun 84 18:29:00-PDT (Sun) From: hplabs!hp-pcd!hpfclk!fritz @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Re: GREMLINS (GREAT. (SPOILERS)) Columbus' name IS mentioned. If I remember right, there's a line at the start of the opening credits to the effect of "Based on a story by Chris Columbus". Gary Fritz ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Jul 84 0:13:23 CDT From: Rich Zellich Subject: The Last Starfighter Just saw a sneak of The Last Starfighter tonight. Tron I liked because of the computer-generated effects; "Starfighter" would have been worth seeing whether it had any computer-generated footage or not. Don't nit-pick it, just go see and enjoy; it's a fun film! -Rich ------------------------------ Date: Sat 7 Jul 84 02:42:57-EDT From: Peter G. Trei Subject: The Last Starfighter (!!!SPOILER REVIEW!!!) Cc: rubin@CUCS20 I just went to see a 'sneak' preview of THE LAST STARFIGHTER, so this is a *************************SPOILER************************** First of all, I would like to say that sneak previews aren't as sneaky as they used to be. TLS's preview was given a full-page ad in the NYT, and it is being done over two days in four theatres in Manhatten, and about 20 around the metropolitan area. Time was, a 'sneak preview' meant something; directors would sit in and gauge the audiences reaction to different parts, and do a final cut according to the results. Now it's just part of the marketing hype, an attempt to build up word-of-mouth even before the official release. I went in expecting to see a special effects movie, with maybe higher technical standards than TRON, but the same abysmal standard of script and acting. I was pleasently surprised. While the plot is very meager it is a perfectly adequate vehicle, and the acting is mostly perfectly decent. I wont go into the plot in detail; basicly video games whiz Alex (Lance Guest), gets recruited into a space navy by the mysterious stranger Centauri (Robert Preston, who gives an amazing performance as a somewhat suspect but extremely enthusiastic persuader). He finds himself instantly inducted into the ranks of the STARFIGHTERs, who were recruited into the force for their special talents. They are to fight for the good Rhyol empire (you can tell, they dress in white), against the emperors evil son Xur (played extremely well by some (Shakespearean?) actor name of Snow). (You can tell they're bad, they like black interior decoration) Alex chickens out, and while he is back on Earth briefly Xur attacks the base, believing he is killing all the Starfighters. Alex soon finds himself back in battle, manning the armaments of the only Gunstar to escape the destruction, with a trusty navigator in the form of Grig (Dan Oherlihy, who is forced to act while wrapped in rich Corinthian leather). After overcoming some initial doubts, he succeeds in single-handedly wiping out the invading armada (though Xur escapes for the sequel). He accepts a commission to rebuild the Rhyol fleet, but only after he returns again breifly to Earth (in a scene reminiscent of CE3K) to pick up his girl friend. There is an amusing subplot concerning events back on Earth while he is away; Centauri left an exact duplicate android in his place, and this 'beta-unit' has considerable trouble dealing with Earth folk, particularly the girlfriend and Lewis, Alex's kid brother. The effects are excellent: computer generated images are used for all the space scenes, and the field has advanced vastly since TRON (Digital Effects used a Cray X-MP). They are not stuffed down your throat the way they were in TRON; there is always a good reason for showing them; they advance the plot, rather than the other way around. The actors are generally competent or better; though they are asked to play paper-thin characters, they do so with sincerity and enthusiasm (I dont think Preston has had so much fun since The Music Man). Of course, there are holes in the plot you could drive a planetoid through, but you are left not really minding. Overall, I really enjoyed the movie, and it turned out to be *much* better than I anticipated. On a scale of 10, I would give it about an 8. Contrast this with GREMLINS, which was far below what I hoped; it got a 3. See it. It opens July 13th. Peter Trei oc.trei@cu20b%columbia-20 212-5692371H/8153711W Dont let THEM immannentize the Eschaton! ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jul 84 9:52:12-PDT (Mon) From: ucbcad!tektronix!orca!brucec @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: The Day of the Triffids - ARTS TV The ARTS cable network broadcast a dramatization of John Wyndham's "Day of the Triffids" last Saturday. My advice to those who missed it is: if it comes on again, SEE IT! This version, unlike a Hollywood version done back in the 60's (I think), was very faithful to both the letter and the spirit of the book. It was emphatically not high-budget, special effects, movie-type sf. The emphasis was on character and theme. The central characters were well developed and well acted (I believe that the actor in the leading role was the teacher in the BBC series "To Serve Them All My Days," which is currently being re-run on Masterpiece Theater on PBS). Although the story involves the deaths of billions of people, this is shown in the deaths of a few, making the impact much greater, because it is focused. The basic theme of the story is survival: what it is worth, and how expensive it is to the survivors and the victims. The theme runs thrrough this entire program, rather than being tacked on as a message at the end. It never gets preachy or dull, because the story really is suspenseful: it is never clear until the end whether anyone will survive, let alone the main characters. I've always been partial to this book as just about the best end-of-world story to come out of the gloom of the 40's and 50's (well, with the exception of "Earth Abides," of course). The producers of the program have done a beautiful job of adapting the book to the screen. The production values are good, though not as good as if it had been done with a large budget. What keeps the visual aspect of the film going is the "look" of the program: a good use of light to aid the mood, and the immediacy of tape. The score is also quite good, providing a brooding dissonance for the nasty parts, and good suspense music for the creepy parts. This is easily the best thing I've seen on TV this year. Bruce Cohen UUCP: ...!tektronix!orca!brucec CSNET: orca!brucec@tektronix ARPA: orca!brucec.tektronix@rand-relay USMail: M/S 61-183 Tektronix, Inc. P.O. Box 1000 Wilsonville, OR 97070 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 7-Jul SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #132 *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Jul 84 1122-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #132 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 7 Jul 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 132 Today's Topics: ******SPECIAL STAR TREK ISSUE****** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 Aug 83 20:52:47 EDT From: Jaffe@RUTGERS Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!! The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the movie "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock". People who have not yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following messages. Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jun 1984 1358-EDT From: Warren Sander Subject: ST-III SPOILER ???? It seems to me that everyone talking about Pon Far and SPOCK are missing a subtle point that can be derived from the book as I will attempt to elaborate on: 1) Savik and David spent one/many nights together while on the Enterprise and the Grissom. 2) Savik and Spock spent a night together when he was in Pon Far (if you read the book Triangle and take it for pseudo-gospel then you can see that is Spock makes Vulcan love the Pon Far breaks and he is normal again) 3) Savik sees Spock as a father figure and is constantly trying to get him to praise her (etc) 4) David is killed on the Genisis planet 5) Spock is now pseudo-ok (Will he remember what happened to him on Genisis or will he have McCoys garbled thoughts for the same period???) Anyway this leads us to ST IV which during the courtmartial and/or award ceremony Savik will come to the conclusion that she is pregnant (maybe Vulcan women only take 1 to 2 months to have a baby instead of 9????) and the child will be part Romulan, part Vulcan and part Human. The question becomes is the father David (making Kirk a Grandpa) or Spock????? This might be an interesting little sub plot for Kirk to think about while he is trying to find the guy who defended him the last time he got into trouble (Samual something (from Courtmartial)).............. Warren Sander [SANDER at DEC-MARLBORO] ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jun 1984 2341-EDT From: Alan H. Martin Subject: Re: STIII: Excelsior There seems to be a dearth of good World Almanacs on the net. The nickname for New York State is "The Empire State". Or did King Kong climb the Excelsior State Building? The state motto is traditionally defined as "Ever upward". The four other Constitution Class MK-IX heavy cruisers involved in the war games in "The Ultimate Computer" were named Excalibur, Lexington, Potemkin and Hood. The name Excelsior - NCC-1718 was reserved for use on a Bonhomme Richard Class MK-IXA heavy cruiser whose construction was authorized by the Star Fleet appropriation of stardate 3220. This could not be the Excelsior of ST/III, because the registration of the ship in the movie was NX-200 (or -2000). The logical ship to have written in to the script to chase the Enterprise would be the first MK-X dreadnought scheduled to be built - the Federation - NCC-2100. The word that describes a dreadnought is "more". It has one more warp engine, mounted on a short pylon rising up out of the back of the primary hull. It can go two warp factors faster - cruising at warp 8 and bursts of warp 10. It can go for two more years (20) without stopping for refueling and resupply. (New York Star Trek fans know that the important replenishment stops are not Star Bases, but White Castle hamburger joints.) It has one more dish antenna, at the rear of the secondary hull (the shuttlecraft bay is at the front). It has two more phaser banks (they are also on the secondary hull). It is like the Enterprise, only it can sense more life forms, kill more life forms and ferry more ambassadors to apologize for it all. Maybe the first time they built one and turned it on it sucked itself into a self-made black hole. Or whipped around in circles (since Federation designers have never learned how to make the engines on these crates so that the axis of thrust points through the center of gravity). The dreadnoughts were real hot-rods, that is why Scotty didn't like the Excelsior. Alan Martin /AHM (AMARTIN@DEC-MARLBORO) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Jun 84 10:49 CDT From: "David S. Cargo" Subject: Star Trek IV musings Having recently seen ST III, I couldn't get a couple of ideas to go away and let me alone, so I thought I would pass them on. There are two people from out of the past who would make interesting, if temporary partners, with Kirk and company: Harry Mudd and Cyrano Jones. Mudd was always asking Kirk to be his partner, but Kirk was always too busy being a straight laced Federation Star ship captain. It is also about time for Jones to be done collecting all the tribbles (unless you count the Saturday morning animation in which case he lucked out already). If Kirk has to resort to some sneaky methods to accomplish something, I can't think of more interesting accomplices; why shouldn't there be a whole episode which is mostly comedy? Also, concerning the fate of Kirk and company, it may depend on how much Star Fleet Command is concerned with ends, as opposed to means (i.e. are they results oriented?). If Kirk hadn't done what he did, think about what would have happened. The fate of his son would have been worse, the fate of the Enterprise would have been worse (in my opinion), the Klingons would have gotten what they wanted, diplomatic relations between Earth and Vulcan wouldn't have been improved. On the whole Kirk accomplished much (in an apparent no-win situation). ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jun 84 17:42 EDT (Fri) From: Mijjil (Matthew J Lecin) Subject: pon farr NO! In "AMOK TIME", it is clearly told to us that Spock, not being fully Vulcan, is not reacting normally and that NORMAL is EVERY SEVEN years after puberty. T'Pring, who was "betrothed" to Spock with in mind-meld in their childhood, must have been going BONKERS waiting to see if he EVER entered pon farr. Many of the fanzines deal with Spock's NOT HAVING REALLY settled the matter of his aborted pon farr. His cycles don't resume normally and he most often winds up with Christine Chapel for his bondsmate. There is, of course, some interesting literature dealing with the Kirk-Spock relationship and Spock's pon farr... Live Long and Prosper, {Mijjil} ------------------------------ Date: 1-Jul-84 16:32:03-EDT From: decvax!ncoast!bsafw@Berkeley (Brandon Allbery,524-1416) Cc: bsafw Subject: Trek III [yet more] I finally got to see the cause of all the furor in the Digest -- and have a few comments: (1) Harve Bennett was great, but two are enough. Unfortunately, he's managed to arrange things so that only he can get Kirk & Co. out of their predicament. How do we oust him NOW? (2) It looked like David Gerrold time. Whose idea was all the humor? (But then, we needed the comic relief -- especially after watching NCC-1701 go kaboom.) (3) About Excelsior dropping its transmission: Actually, a reliable source tells me that it's the sound of a Model T at the end of its life. As for why Scotty did that -- it seems obvious to me. The Captain of the Excelsior was all hyped up about "his" new transwarp drive -- Scotty decided to teach him a lesson. ("GOOD MORNING, CAPTAIN") He deserved it! "Aren't you going to kill me?" -- "I lied." Brandon Allbery 6504 Chestnut Road Independence, OH 44131 decvax!cwruecmp{!atvax}!{bsafw,stuart,ubbs} BITNET: R0176%CSUOHIO (CSU administration permitting) ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jun 84 12:12:30-PDT (Thu) From: ihnp4!ihlts!rjnoe @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Star Trek III > From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] > The flight recorder that was tampered with was a shuttle flight > recorder in the episode "Courtmartial". I dont remember any > tampering with the recorders of the Enterprise itself. Shuttle flight recorder? No, it was the bridge recorder of the Enterprise. > I think the major weakness of the movie was all the bits of the > plot/story that were left on the cutting room floor. I can see the > gaping holes designed to make you buy the book so you can know > what is *really* going on. Many of these scenes which would have helped ST3 were never shot in the first place. I hardly think the gaping holes were designed to get people to buy the book. Most people don't see these holes until they have read the book (Trek fans excluded, of course). > it is very questionable why Saavik would have taken a relative > downgrade from Command Captain Trainee to Scientific Researcher. She was a cadet in ST2, science officer of Grissom in ST3. Not what I would call a demotion. > The Vulcan Temple Maidens were for more than show...didn't anyone > else notice that they seemed to be lending power to T'Whatsername > as she was re-recording Spock into his own head? They were doing the same thing that Saavik, Sarek and other Vulcans were doing: they were telepathic spectators. The women still LOOKED SILLY. "The more they overthink the plumbin', the easier 'tis to stop up the drain." Roger Noe ihnp4!ihlts!rjnoe ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jul 84 6:17:19-PDT (Mon) From: ihnp4!inuxc!inuxd!burton @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: ST-III SPOILER ???? So many people have been speculating about Saavik and Spock and the possible pregnancy; now someone else has brought up the book, with the love scene between Saavik and David! If (and I mean IF) you want to use the book as a source for information, at least use ALL the information that's there; just before David and Saavik go at it, David makes a point, something similar to: David: "Um, where I'm from its polite to point out that I've passed all my exams in Bio control" Saavik: "Yes, I always thought the need to control the reproductive ability amusing, until now" This is heavily paraphrased, as I borrowed the book from a friend a few weeks ago and have since returned it. However, the point that was made early in the book was that apparently all humans and apparently vulcans (maybe? at least Saavik) learn early to exercise control over their reproductive system. IF (notice the if) you want to take the book as Gospel, then not only is Saavik not pregnant by David, she also is not pregnant by Spock. Just thought I'd add more fuel to the controversy. Doug Burton ATT-CP Indianapolis inuxg!burton ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jul 84 9:31:42-PDT (Tue) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!jonab @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: ST3, answers to commetns, possible s - (nf) friedman@uiucdcs writes: >> ... It is very questionable why Saavik would have taken a >> relative downgrade from Command Captain Trainee to Scientific >> Researcher. ... >I don't see that she did take a downgrade (or even a change). It >seems clear from Kirk's behavior in various episodes that the >captain has some familiarity with the science station -- Kirk >sometimes worked the controls himself. And don't forget Chekov's >frequent activity at the science station, as Spock's backup; he was >also a command trainee, and was often told to take over the science >station. Seems to me this would just be part of command training. The important thing here is that Saavik was not reassigned to the Grissom permanently! The Grissom met the Enterprise very soon after the Genesis device was set off. Because she was involved in the incident and had more knowledge of the Genesis device than many others aboard the Enterprise, she was temporarily detached for duty aboard the Grissom to investigate the new planet. She had to go because the Enterprise couldn't spare anyone else. Jon Biggar {allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,sdccsu3}!sdcrdcf!jonab ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jun 84 7:31:00-PDT (Sat) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!friedman @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: ST3, answers to commetns, possible s > The flight recorder that was tampered with was a shuttle > flight recorder in the episode "Courtmartial". I dont remember any > tampering with the recorders of the Enterprise itself. No, your memory is faulty on this. There was no shuttlecraft involved in "Court Martial" at all. It was the Enterprise's flight recorder that was tampered with (they didn't call it that in the episode, but that does seem a good word for it). > As I remember in "Amok Time", Spock was on the order of 50+ > years old. He had not yet had his first pon farr, and states > during the scene where he is telling Kirk about Vulcan Birds and > Bees that he had hoped to be spared the shame. Since the Young > Vulcan was genetically Spock, a hybrid, I can't see why the silly > pon farr happened so early in the first place. Saavik and he did > not necessarily have to do anything, since in "Amok Time" he came > out of it after fighting Kirk, when he should have died. All in > all, a poorly done section of the movie. You make a good point about the timing. But I don't agree about the comparison between relieving Spock's symptoms in "Amok Time", after the fight, and Saavik doing so in ST III. The point in "Amok Time" was that the fight with another male took care of the problem. That couldn't have happened in ST III. It seems to me that Spock and Saavik had to bond in some way, telepathically, sexually, or whatever some clever writer dreams up. (I'll be surprised if there isn't some treatment of this point in ST IV.) Personally, I thought this was a very well done scene, despite the age problem. > ... It is very questionable why Saavik would have taken a > relative downgrade from Command Captain Trainee to Scientific > Researcher. ... I don't see that she did take a downgrade (or even a change). It seems clear from Kirk's behavior in various episodes that the captain has some familiarity with the science station -- Kirk sometimes worked the controls himself. And don't forget Chekov's frequent activity at the science station, as Spock's backup; he was also a command trainee, and was often told to take over the science station. Seems to me this would just be part of command training. ------------------------------ Date: Fri 6 Jul 84 15:10:48-EDT From: Vivian R. Glueck Subject: ST III Sorry to come into the debate so late but... 1) The Vulcan high priestess is not T`Lon but T`Lar. 2) "Leonard Nimoy will write, direct and star in Paramounts` Star Trek IV" New York Post, June 18, 1984 Vivian Glueck glueck@columbia-20.arpa ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 10-Jul SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #133 *** EOOH *** Date: 10 Jul 84 1542-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #133 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 10 Jul 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 133 Today's Topics: Books - Chalker & Clement & Gibson & Jameson & Kurtz & Constructed Worlds & SF Pronunciation (2 msgs) & Concept Tie-ins in Books, Films - The Last Starfighter & Sigourney Weaver & Silent Speeds & Jittlov & Honors in Films & Star Wars, Television - Dr. Who ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 3 Jul 84 13:29:00-PDT (Tue) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uok!esmith @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Jack Chalker review (non spoiler) - (nf) I've heard that most people out the don't really care for the works of Jack Chalker, but in my opinion he's written so very good works. His latest series "________ of the Dancing Gods" I believe are some of better works in SF out today. The Dancing god series are relatively new. The first book "The River of the Dancing Gods", published Feb. '84, was very entertaining and left the reader waiting for the second of a three part series. The premise of the books is that there is a planet that when God created Earth this planet was created also. The only thing is that this planet wasn't governed by the strict set of rules that God made for Earth, magic works here, there are wizards and magical creatures, all governed by their own set of rules. Now take two normal run out of luck americans, headed for disaster, their own deaths, and transport them to this world to fight for Good. Good in this case is saving the earth from Armageddon. Chalker weaves a tale that rivals some of the best fantasy books around and still leaves room for humor and great adventure. The second book, "Demons of the Dancing Gods", Jun. '84, picks up where the first book stops and carries our hero and heroine on to further adventures. I was very entertained by the books and made for some very good light reading, with lots of adventure. - Eric L. Smith !ctvax!uokvax!uok!esmith ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jul 84 14:56:00-PDT (Wed) From: ihnp4!mgnetp!burl!ulysses!allegra!mdpl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: another Hal Clement short story Another Hal Clement short story is "Seasoning" in the Sept.-Oct. 1978 issue of Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine. Mary P. Leland AT&T Bell Laboratories ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jul 84 18:32:24 mdt From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley) Subject: A review of NEUROMANCER by William Gibson NEUROMANCER. William Gibson. Ace Specials, c1984. Non-spoiler review: Buy it, buy it! Micro-spoiler review: This is a futuristic thriller which deals with 'cyberspace'. Some between-the-lines tribute is given to Vernor Vinge's TRUE NAMES, which seems to have been the first real implementation of the idea. Gibson's world is very different from Vinge's, however, and the action takes place in various seedy settings reminiscent of the movie BLADERUNNER. The action is nonstop, and the characters and setting have a gritty, realistic feel. If you are afraid of downer novels, beware that the protagonists of NEUROMANCER are not particularly sympathetic (in fact they are all professional criminals), and a lot of, well, bad language is used. But the book is so skillfully done and the suspense is so great that I couldn't put the book down once I'd started it. Mini-spoiler review: This is William Gibson's first novel -- NEUROMANCER is the third Ace Special in the series edited by Terry Carr, where all the books (so far) are first novels. (I've reviewed the previous two Specials here before: THE WILD SHORE by Kim Stanley Robinson and GREEN EYES by Lucius Shepard. Algis Budrys in F&SF thought THE WILD SHORE was very good (with some qualifications) and went ga-ga over GREEN EYES; my feelings are similar. By the way, NEUROMANCER apparently got very good reviews from Norman Spinrad in IASFM recently.) For a first novel, this book is amazingly good. Now a little plot teaser. (Those of you who hate to hear anything about plots, skip this paragraph.) Case used to be a cyberspace cowboy, someone who could jack into the world of cyberspace and penetrate corporate defenses to bring back data for whoever could pay the price. He crossed his bosses once, though, and they poisoned him with a mycotoxin which destroys the nerve endings necessary to be able to jack, leaving him stranded in the world of 'meat'. Now he is slowly degenerating into drug addiction, petty crime and suicidal mania in the Japanese city of Chiba, where anyone with the money can have any kind of surgery done, but Case hasn't the money to repair himself. Case cheats the fence he deals with and the fence sends some hoods to rub Case out, but at the last possible moment Case is rescued by members of an organization without a name. They hold out the possibility of a deal: they will reconstruct Case's ravaged nervous system if he will agree to go on an extremely dangerous mission whose object they refuse to divulge. The course of the mission takes Case to BAMA, the city with the slang name of Sprawl which covers the old eastern seaboard of the US, to the warrens of Istanbul, and to the satellite of Freeside where the rich go to play and occasionally to die. The climax, however, is in cyberspace, where Case must penetrate a massively secure system without being 'flatlined', i.e., avoiding brain death from over stimulation. This plus ninja assassins, the Turing police, punk terrorists, the Rastafarian Space Navy and lots more. In some ways this book resembles Alfred Bester's THE STARS MY DESTINATION, especially from the point of view of the incredible pacing and the violence and the plot fireworks, but there are also a few similarities in characters. The descriptive language and dialogue really grab you with detail; this world comes alive, detestable as some of it is. Curiously, this book is hard science fiction, although it doesn't read like it, and you get the feeling that the social consequences of the technology that he postulates have all been carefully worked out (although I have a few nits to pick, as usual). NEUROMANCER sort of one-ups TRUE NAMES -- if Vinge is working on an expanded version of TRUE NAMES, it will be interesting to see how they compare... Enjoy, Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept. donn@utah-cs.ARPA [Note the new address!] decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 84 10:10:35 EDT From: Alexander B. Latzko Subject: Searching for an old book Greetings: HELP!!! I am looking for a pointer to an available copy of "Bullard of the Space Patrol" by Michael Jameson. One of the stories in it was reprinted in Brian Aldiss's(?) Galactic Empires anthology ,and truly peaked my curiosity about the rest. Much thanks in advance. alex !pegasus!ru-blue!latzko.uucp ------------------------------ Date: 07/06/84 14:54:07 EDT ( FRIDAY ) From: Stephen R. Balzac Subject: New Deryni Novels Has anyone heard if the first of the new Deryni trilogy, The Bishop's Heir, is out yet, or if it's not, if it will be soon? ------------------------------ Date: 8-Jul-84 01:43:45-EDT From: decvax!ncoast!bsafw@Berkeley (Brandon Allbery,524-1416) Subject: BUILT worlds I remember reading a book about a world named Patra-Bannk which was very much built -- (can someone netmail me the name of that book? All I remember is the name of the planet and that it was VERY similar to MISSION OF GRAVITY in plot) -- thin dirt shell on metal, and a quantum black hole (& metallic-hydrogen factory) inside. Brandon Allbery 6504 Chestnut Road Independence, OH 44131 decvax!cwruecmp{!atvax}!{bsafw,stuart,ubbs} BITNET: R0176%CSUOHIO (CSU administration permitting) "himself being one universe's prime example of utter, rambunctious free will!"  ------------------------------ From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Date: 9 Jul 84 8:53:36 EDT Subject: SF Pronunciation While on our way to a hamfest Sunday we were discussing the Dune trailer, and found to considerable amusement that we had four different ways of pronouncing Aetrides (God, I hope that's spelled correctly...) It's a problem that comes up only in discussion, fortunately, as I reserve the right to choose how I pronounce nonstandard words. You'd be surprised how vehemently some people defend their own way of pronouncing something as The Real Thing. I also write the stuff, and the second most frequently asked question (after where you get those crazy ideas) is, of course, where do you get those crazy names. My answer is both simple and honest: I get them from my high school yearbook. The following names were classmates in woodshop: Czuchra, Hkrepech, and Labiak. Bajh was originally Bayh, whom I named after the Governor of Indiana, and changed only after my sister cautioned me against offending politicians. (Who are simultaneously the most vicious and most powerful people in America.) Many slavic names sound (and look) amazing alien-like to WASP types. Not all Polish names end in ski or wicz; my mother's maiden name was Przybytek (Polish for "chalice") and a personal favorite Polish word (strur, "rat") will be an Evil Emperor type in a novel I have on the drawing board. If your high school class were all WASP types, get yourself a Chicago phone book. I forgive people who can't pronounce my story character names quite readily, as it's a rare person who can pronounce "Duntemann" correctly without some coaching. And hell, what's in a name, anyway? --Jeff Duntemann duntemann.wbst@xerox ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 1984 1445-PDT Subject: (un)pronounceable names From: John Platt In a fiction APA I'm in, there was a raging debate about pronounceable names. Many of the newcomers liked to use names with apostrophes in strange places, funny double letters, and capital letters in the middle of the name. The pros seem to dislike this, saying that the weird names didn't seem alien, only silly. One person, in fact, predicted a great apostrophe backlash --- apostrophes would come to epitomize all of the silly SF in the 70's just like hand blasters and green slimy blobs from Mars are the essential props of bad 50's SF. Ffttssuu'wwTTssvvee'dd the plaid-killer aka platt@cit-20 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jul 84 15:08:37 CDT From: Mike Caplinger Subject: "biocontrol" in ST III Biocontrol as it appears in McIntyre's ST III novelization is a author's-other-work tie-in with the same concept as it appears in McIntyre's DREAMSNAKE. Has anybody ever made a list of all the similar cross-fertilization James Blish used to do? And not just between his Star Trek stuff and other work, but between different universes in his other work? - Mike ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Jul 84 13:00:13 PDT From: Mark Trumpler Subject: The Last Starfighter (No spoiler) Just saw the sneak preview...the graphics were good, and the plot was (as has been printed here) a video game addict's dream, but the characterizations left something to be desired. But then, this is SF, so who cares? -+- Mark P.S. Saw it with Conan... now that was a good movie! ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jul 84 19:45:25 PDT (Sat) From: Mike Brzustowicz Subject: Re: Sigourney Weaver She also played the "heroine" in a movie called "eye witness". It was not nearly a bit part, and I think she did it well. -Mike ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jul 84 21:18:34 pdt From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin) Subject: silent speed A neighbor in broadcasting tells me that the real reason silent movies were slower was because of the hand crank projection system used to display them. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 84 09:15:37 EDT Subject: Jittlov update From: Mike O'Brien Mike is no longer going to conventions and showing his films as he is completely wrapped up in making his first feature-length film, which is basically "The Making of the Wizard of Speed and Time", a not-very-fictionalized account of his trials and tribulations as a filmmaker. He refuses to give up any artistic control of a project, and hence hasn't got a snowball's chance in Hell of making it in Hollywood. He tries anyway. This film is his attempt to establish credibility at full feature length. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jul 84 09:38 CDT From: Boebert@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Honors in "Gremlins" One of the best "honors" to previous films was the casting of Lee Chan, Charlie's Number One Son (Keye Luke) as the Chinese Grandfather; this gives us a hint as to where the furry critter came from ... either Egypt or Shanghai in 1935. (Where was Indiana Jones when Charlie found the mummy with the bullet in it?) On an unrelated topic, Howard Hughes' 1930 epic Hell's Angels floated by on cable... SFX fans may want to look it up for some of the best build-a-model-and-blow-it-up effects ever done...plus fantastic (live) flying scenes, Jean Harlow slipping into something more comfortable, high mellerdrammer and the Red Baron. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jun 84 14:36:15-PDT (Sat) From: decvax!dartvax!kenv @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: SW I or SW VII? If they do make a new Star Wars flick, I hope they do SW I, and not SW VII. The history of the Empire and how it came into power seems, to me, to be more interesting than what happens after the Empire is completely (???) destroyed (unless they're not telling us something....). Any other opinions out there? Ken Varnum ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jul 84 12:20:16-PDT (Wed) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!akgua!psuvax1!burdvax!sjuvax!5863mp11 @ From: Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: TARDIS isomorphism Apparently, this error can be attributed to the fact that each show is written by a different author. In the Pyramids of Mars, the doctor told Sutec(sp.) that only he could pilot the tardis, but, as was pointed out, later in the series, other people have piloted the tardis. The idea of the isomorphism would also create a bit of a problem concerning how the doctor appropriated the tardis in the first place. On several occasions, the tardis has been shown to possess artificial intelligence, and has acted on its own (in The Time Monster, the tardis rescued the Doctor when the Master trapped him in the space-time vortex, it also helped in the second regeneration of the docotor, when he was too weak to get help) and perhaps this is what the doctor meant (i.e. it would have recognized sutec as an enemy and shut itself down). In any event, it seems that this most likely occured because the authors didn't remember the actions of past shows. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 11-Jul SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #134 *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Jul 84 1217-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #134 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 11 Jul 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 134 Today's Topics: Books - Busby & Author's Addresses & Vertex, Films - The Last Starfighter (2 msgs) & Roll Your Own Films (2 msgs) & "The Company of Wolves" & Jittlov, Television - The Day of the Triffids & Man vs. Machine & Doctor Who, Miscellaneous - Westercon & T-shirts ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 3 Jul 84 16:14:00-PDT (Tue) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uok!esmith @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: F.M. Busby review (non spoiler) - (nf) 7 virgins and a mule, keep it cool, keep it cool. F.M. Busby and the Rissa Kerguelen Saga. I know that these books were published back in 1977, but they have been re-released and make excellent reading. Berkley Publishing has taken the original two book series and split them into three. The books are: Young Rissa, Rissa and Tregare, & The Long View. The books get a little hard to follow becuase of the over abundance of supporting characters, but other than that they are a very well written series of books. The series starts out with our heroine, age five, on Earth. The bad guys kill her parents and put her into legalized slavery, welfare, from here we follow her through several mishaps and she escapes in a very innovative way, she kills her way out. Well so as not to be a spoiler we follow her adventures as she and her husband, Tregare, try to take back Earth from the evil hands that made the galaxy such a rotten place to live. Every once and a while the movement drags a litte bit and there's a quite a few a typo's but nobodys perfect. All in all the reading was good and was very well done. Although the plot is not very original Busby adds a "realism" to the Books that can only be comapared with some of Heinlein's works. My recommendation is that if you like Heinlein, you should like these books very much, I did. - Eric L. Smith !ctvax!uokvax!uok!esmith ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jul 84 0:23:28-PDT (Sat) From: hplabs!ames-lm!barry @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Help put David Brin on the net > At the same convention, though, Harlan Ellison lamented his > mistreatment by "fans" who had somehow gotten his address, and > sent him all manner of postage due, C.O.D., uninvited GARBAGE. It > required the hiring of a full-time secretary at one point, and > probably cost a novel's worth of time. For this reason, I'm not > going to post Mr. Brin's address. I don't think Mr. Ellison tries too hard to hide. When I lived in LA last (2 years ago), his name and phone # were in the phone book. I checked this out of curiosity after hearing him make a similar statement to the one reported above. I am in no way defending a**holes who hassle Ellison, just reporting a fact, so no flames, please. Kenn Barry ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jun 84 1:41:47-PDT (Fri) From: decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: VERTEX SF Magazine > Does anyone remember Vertex? I have what I think is a complete set > of the mag, but I'm not sure. I have all of volume one, all of two > but number six, and, I think, volume three stoped at number four. > Can anyone tell me if there was a V2#6 and if there were more than > four in V3? > > Mark Pease > ...tektronix!tekig1!markp Yes, there was a V2#6. Volume 2 #6 February 1975 No, there were only 4 Volume 3 #1 April 1975 issues in Volume 3. These last 3 issues were in Volume 3 #2 June 1975 a tabloid newspaper format Volume 3 #3 July 1975 instead of a slick magazine. Volume 3 #4 August 1975 Some references list the last three issues as June, August, and October, but that's flat wrong. A friend of mine has all three. They are definitely June, July, and August. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my Business"> ------------------------------ Date: Sun 8 Jul 84 09:36:59-EDT From: MDC.MIKE%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: ST III and the Last Starfighter Saw Last Starfighter at a preview last night. Because it never aspired to be great it managed to be a very good show. It was well done, nicely balanced, real and believable ( well, almost ). This film will appeal to a wide audience, and you are almost guaranteed a good time. I thought I saw a couple of visual puns or in-jokes that I would like to mention here ( ** Probably not a Spoiler **) : a) The effects were made using many hours of Cray X-MP supercomputer time, and look like well done computer graphics. But one of the consoles in the command center bears a strong resemblance to the operator console of the CDC 6600, which was Seymour Cray's first supercomputer! b) At one point a character says something like "I am going to try to ram-charge it" and then we see him fiddling with something that could be a RAM board from a PC of some type.... ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 84 14:29:11 PDT (Monday) From: Isdale.es@XEROX.ARPA Subject: The Last Starfighter (correct spelling, credits, etc.) re: Peter Trei"s msg the good guys main planet is called "Rylos" not "Rhyol". It is also the California license plate on the back of Centauri's Star Car. (dont bother trying to get the real CA plate. That went to the head Tech Director at DP last year (he quit shortly after I did, neither of us got screen credits for all our sleepless nights). The good guys dont have an "empire". They are the called The Star League and are fighting the Kodan Empire....The game starts out with the voice: Greetings Starfighter! You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the frontier against Xur and the Kodan Armada.... The company that did the special effects is Digital Productions not Digital Effects. DE does commercials and logos but not feature films. There isn't really anyone else who is set up to do computer graphics feature films (Lucasfilms ILM does shorts like the Genesis Effect but that took an incredibly long time considering the speed which DP gets wiht the Cray XMP (weeks versus hours)) Personal Notes: As a previous employee of Digital Productions, I will be happy to answer any questions I can that you folks in netland may have regarding the graphics, etc. Digital Prod. is not on the net but I still maintain some underground connections with them. Jerry Isdale Isdale.es@Xerox.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jul 84 13:39:05-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!akgua!gatech!arnold @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Roll Your Own SF (Edgar Rice Burroughs) I've been meaning to post this for awhile.... I have recently been reading some of the Edgar Rice Burroughs Martian stories, and I'd like to see them as movies, *animated by Ralph Bakshi*. I think he'd do a great job on some of the martian creatures, the green men, the plant men, and some of the other things that keep showing up on Mars. Any opinions? Arnold Robbins CSNET: arnold@gatech RPA: arnold%gatech.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa UUCP: { akgua, allegra, ihnp4 }!gatech!arnold Save the Arithmetic IF! ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jul 84 10:50:39 PDT (Tuesday) From: Pettit.PA@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #131 Cc: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA When I first saw the drawings of Cirocco in Titan, I thought she looked a lot like Cher, and wondered if Varley had suggested that the artist model her on Cher in preparation for a possible future movie. And I agree with Perry that Cher's role in Silkwood had a lot in common with Cirocco's style, too -- rough, tough, fond of women and beer, and a loyal friend. Now who would you pick to play Gaby? I think that's a harder one. A very complex personality, and she has to be pretty and short, too. -- Teri ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 84 00:33:56 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: Movie review: "The Company of Wolves" "The Company of Wolves" is a new British fantasy/sort-of-horror film which just had its American premier at Filmex (LA Film Exposition) today. Princess Anne (you know, the British one) milled about the lobby and left after the short, as a member of her entourage decided that it wasn't a suitable film for her to see in public. Angela Lansbury, one of the film's stars, also attended and kept a low profile. But enough gossip, on to the movie. "The Company of Wolves" is an extremely stylish fairy tale/dream film. An adolescent girl falls asleep and dreams that she is in a land rather similar to the one in which the more sinister fairy tales took place. Her sister is killed by a pack of wolves (she didn't like her much, anyway). Her kindly old granny, who lives off in the woods, far from safety, starts telling her some rather nasty little stories about wolves, mostly involving werewolves of one sort or another. According to Granny, the wolves you really have to worry about are the ones that are hairy inside, not outside. ******Mild spoiler between stars****** The various tales are told as stories within stories, the most extensive dealing with a woman who thought that wolves had carried away her first husband on their wedding night. Well, they had. Sort of. Another story concerns a woman wronged by a nobleman who gets a terrible, lupine revenge on his wedding day. There's also a fellow who meets the devil in the forest at midnight. (The devil, anachronistically, but stylishly, is chauffeurred around in a white Rolls Royce.) Eventually, the girl finds out just why she should beware of men whose eyebrows meet in the middle, and why it's a bad idea to stray off the path in the forest. As the more astute of you might have guessed, at the core is none other than the story of Little Red Riding Hood, but the wolf has rather different ideas than in the original. ******end of spoiler****** The film is really beautiful. It's all shot in the studio, which gives it an enchanted forest look. The photography and art direction are excellent. The script cleverly winds together the various threads, giving a complex picture of sexuality, fear, and desire. The direction, by Neil Jordan, is also quite crisp. There are a number of fine performances which leaven the film with ironic humor, particularly from Angela Lansbury, as the Granny overfond of stories with unpleasant, violent ends. David Warner, unbelievably enough, plays not a werewolf or villain, but the straightforward role of the girl's father. Sarah Patterson, 13 years old, plays the girl. There are some bloody transformations, a little different than the ones in "American Werewolf in London" and "The Howling", based on the filmmakers' view that you don't turn into a wolf, you have the wolf inside you. They are fairly impressive, as is a special effects wolf used in some scenes. There are some gross transformations, but otherwise little explicit violence, certainly none of the gushing blood kind. There is a steady sexual undercurrent, as well, but no nudity or explicit sex. A good bet for the MPAA's brand new PG-13 rating, should the film get American distribution. If it should, I strongly recommend it. It's different, but very entertaining. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 1984 09:01-EST From: David.Anderson@CMU-CS-G.ARPA Subject: Re: Wizard of Speed & Time By an incredible stroke of good luck I saw this on "TV's Bloopers and Practical Jokes" -- you know, the silly show with Ed McMahon and Dick Clark. They seem to be showing some of the better shorts as a regular feature of the show. If they do this at a predictable point in the program it's worth tuning in. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jul 84 14:20:18-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!consult @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: The Day of the Triffids - ARTS TV I saw "Day of the Triffids" on ARTS as well, and everything that people have been saying about it is true. It was very well done. However, I have the same problem with this movie as I did with the book: What the hell do the Triffids have to do with anything???! As far as I can tell, this is another (very good) end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it story. Why the Triffids? There could have just as easily been cougars running around feeding on the blind people. The impression is that the author was saying "well, what about man-eating plants? we have to have some of those in here! put a few in...no, wait! let's name the book/movie after the plants to!!" Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to downgrade either the book or the movie...it's just that the Triffids seemed pretty useless... (or am I missing some deep, dark philosphical point about man tampering with nature, etc etc etc ?) -- Rob DeMillo MACC Adric: "...I don't know what this thing is, but it's pointing in your direction..." ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jul 84 9:16:45-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!jkb @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Man vs. Machine I was watching Showtime the other day and happened to see an episode of The Paper Chase, the Second Year where the engineering department pitted their "thinking" computer program against the law department, and eventually, Professor Kingsfield. He was soundly trounced on all of the rote questions involving interpretations of the law because the computer had a faster access to the law database and could cite (and use) more references and relevant cases for substantiation. When it came down to the final showdown, Kingsfield posed a hypothetical situation to the computer, which proceeded to apply more and more of its resources to the problem until it barfed. My question is this: Is there such a thing as a machine that will, without regard to its own life and limb and programming, consume itself by applying more resources (i.e., CPU power, memory, etc.) to solve a particular problem? This theme has been shown in quite a few SF movies and shows (Forbidden Planet and the Star Trek episode with the Mark V computer, to name two). It bothers me a little that whenever we see a version of Man vs. Computer, man always wins because computer barfs. Does anybody out in net.sf.land know of a situation where this has not happened; that is, where either computer wins and man barfs, or where computer gives up (note: I don't consider Wargames in this category)? Yours until Nomad comes home, John Barbee ------------------------------ Date: 07/11/84 09:01:09 EDT ( WEDNESDAY ) From: Stephen R. Balzac Subject: Tardis Isomorphism Of course, the Doctor may simply have lied to Sutec, or it could be an adjustment he made to it after he stole it. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jul 84 00:53 EDT From: Paul Schauble Subject: WesterCon I guess news travels slowly in the heat, I still haven't heard how the site selection voting went. Anyone care to post the voting results and perhaps a summary of the business meeting and other con activities.? And, assuming San Diego won, can anyone give me a contact, phone or net, on the committee? Thanks, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 84 10:11:52 EDT From: Daniel Dern Subject: Ghostbusters T-shirts Wanted any leads? Daniel Dern (ddern at bbn.arpa) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 11-Jul SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #135 *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Jul 84 1241-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #135 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 11 Jul 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 135 Today's Topics: ******SPECIAL STAR TREK ISSUE****** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 Aug 83 20:52:47 EDT From: Jaffe@RUTGERS Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!! The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the movie "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock". People who have not yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following messages. Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) ------------------------------ Date: Sun 8 Jul 84 09:36:59-EDT From: MDC.MIKE%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: ST III and the Last Starfighter Saw ST III. My spouse and I were both amazed at the *incredible* job of fine acting by DeForrest Kelly ( Bones ). We both felt it was the best ST movie yet, but it seems to me that one has to have seen ST II to get the most out of it, it can't stand alone. Someday they would make a great double-feature by running ST II and III back to back. The book made from ST III is even better than the film. It contains about twice as many scenes and much more information than the film does. Don't read the book first, or you will consider the movie to be skimpy. ------------------------------ Date: 07/09/84 17:19:42 EDT ( MONDAY ) From: Stephen R. Balzac Subject: Star Trek III Here's the result of a Star Trek debate that went on out here where I am between some people not all on the net: Let's talk about Enterprise. We know many of her particulars, many others we can guess at. One of the nice things about all three ST movies is that, at the very least, the producers et. al. seem to do their homework; they attempt to be consistent with the already existent ST world (make that universe). But a bad mistake surfaced in STIII: Enterprise is not "twenty years old." Witness: we know, from the animated episode "The Counter-Clock Incident," that the first captain of Enterprise was Robert April. Although we are not told for how long he commanded the ship, it is probably safe to assume somewhere between one and five years. But, to be absolutely safe, let us also include the possibility that April was aboard an even shorter time. We know, from the animated episode "Time Trap," that Enterprise was the first Constellation-size vessel to incorporate the warp drive. So let us say that April commanded Enterprise merely for that mission--test of the warp drive in Constellation-size ships. Still, he would be aboard for a week, at the least. Now, we know another--probably the second--captain of Enterprise: Christopher Pike. In the episode "The Menagerie," Spock notes, while watching the tapes (transmissions) that the events are from "thirteen years ago." Since we see a bond between Kirk and Spock, it is evident that they have both been aboard Enterprise for at least a short time. But, again to be safe and give a minimum estimate, let's say that Spock's commandeering of Enterprise took place at the very end of Kirk's five-year command, and that Enterprise's first visit to Talos IV took place at the very beginning of Pike's command. That means that there was a span of at least eight years between Pike's first day aboard Enterprise and Kirk's first day. Then, of course, we know that Kirk commanded Enterprise for five years. Then, from STTMP, we know that Enterprise was in dry dock, being refitted, for at least two-and-a-half years. And from STII, we know (since Kirk says he hasn't seen Khan in fifteen years) that at least seven-and-a-half years have taken place between STTMP and STII. And, of course, there was no time lag to speak of between STII and STIII. So, let's add up our time: Minimum Maximum April: 1 week 5 years (let's assume) Pike+: 8 years 13 years Kirk: 5 years 5 years STTMP: 2.5 years 2.5 years STII: 7.5 years 8.5 years --------- --------- 23 years 1 week/ 34 years So, it would appear that Enterprise is at least twenty-three years old. In that case, it is understandable for somebody to say she is twenty years old. More than likely, though, she is twenty-eight to thirty-four years old. I don't know; I would like some clarification in STIV about this point. What do you know about naval procedure? Could you tell me a little bit (if you know) about decommissioning vessels, and the renaming procedure for destroyed vessels? Also, are courts-martial strictly internal to the service? That is (assuming that Starfleet follows naval procedure, for the most part), would Kirk and co. be tried by the Federation government--hijacking, trespassing, destruction of government property, etc.--or would the matter be strictly in Starfleet's hands? And could a court-martial result in Kirk staying in the service, with, as you suggested, merely a demotion in rank? First of all, the animated episodes are notoriously inaccurate. I wouldn't consider anything they say to be very important. Further, I don't see what the exact age of the Enterprise has to do with anything. If its more than 20 years old, then that's all the more reason for decommissioning it. I don't really consider this a very serious point. As for Naval customs, etc: Generally, the navy names a new vessel of a given class after one of that class that's been destroyed (or something). Witness how many aircraft carriers have been named Enterprise (that's the most famous example--there's been at least half a dozen). Since StarFleet seems patterned much after Earth 20th Century naval customs, they will probably do something similar. Court-martials: If StarFleet follows typical military procedure, then the courtmartial is an internal affair, which the civilian courts will never have anything to do with. Normally, I suppose Kirk would be thrown out of the service, at best, but for the following points: 1. If he hadn't stolen Enterprise, the Klingons would have gotten Genesis out of David. No way he could withstand Klingon "interrogation" for long. Although Genesis was a failure at what it was supposed to be, it would have been a deadly weapon in Klingon hands, the Organian Peace Treaty not withstanding. 2. Vulcan is a very powerful member of the Federation. Implication is that it is the co-capital (with Earth). With Vulcan backing him, StarFleet is going to be careful about what they do to Kirk, as they won't want to offend the Vulcans. 3. Kirk is, according to StarFleet command (I forget the name of the guy, the one who said that the Enterprise was being decommissioned), one of the best men in StarFleet. Witness, he managed to steal a starship, right from under StarFleet's collective nose. Cashiering such a person would be tremendous waste of manpower. As Vulcan will undoubtably point out: "It would be highly illogical." My point about Enterprise's age is not what I would consider a serious point, and I was not making in order to defend Enterprise's being decommissioned; it's just that I would think that Commander Starfleet would know the Enterprise's age. It just bugs me, that's all. As for the animateds, yes, they must be taken with a grain of salt. Nonetheless, they must be taken in some way, I believe. After all, it is from "Bem" that we come to know Kirk's middle name (which is a nice detail, I think). You bring up excellent points about Kirk's case. David surely would have been subjected to the mind-sifter, which, as you say, he could not possibly withstand. In this way of looking at it, Kirk retrieved Genesis from--or, at least, kept it from being captured by--the Klingon Empire. Also, Vulcan would seem to be a major force in the Federation, one that probably would be a formidable opposition if it came to that. In addition, it would seem certain that Sarek will come to Kirk's defense, as will T'Pau (I assume) and T'Lar (I also assume). And then there is Kirk's record to consider. Brilliant might be an understatement. All good points, well made. But it also seems that Kirk is manipulating Starfleet. I believe what Kirk has done was moral, and he was not wrong for disobeying orders. And most of the times he has disobeyed orders in the past, he has been shown to have been right. But won't Starfleet try to put some kind of restraint on Kirk? I mean, sure, he's a great captain and leader, a brilliant strategist and dedicated explorer. But he continually disobeys orders. A starship out in space, away from Starfleet, must surely be autonomous in many ways. But Starfleet certainly can't want to chance Kirk's usurping his power. I guess this calls into question Kirk's integrity and loyalty to the Federation and Starfleet. And I guess we need go no further if that is the case. There is one major point to be considered, though. Kirk was justified in his actions: Spock is alive. Because of Kirk. This can be part of Kirk's defense, but. . . . What will the Federation worlds think of Genesis and its implications? It is already a "galactic controversy." And now a man has been brought back to life because of it. That is not what really happened, but it is what will be thought of those who do not understand or believe in "Vulcan mysticism." I mean, what Genesis really did was clone Spock's body. It regenerated some of his cells, and surely those cells must already have been alive. Spock died of exposure to radiation, but at least some of his cells would live for a short time. And Genesis, in effect, cloned him. That is not any big deal. We almost--any perhaps do--have that technology now. The major point, which might be disbelieved or overlooked by many, is that Spock's consciousness was not regenerated; it was in McCoy. How could Genesis regenerate a consciousness? David and Carol and the others would had to have known what constituted a consciousness (in which case Paramount would have had to make some heavy statements about the nature of mind and body). Apparently, creating consciousness is still beyond 23rd century science--which is believable. My whole point here is, will Starfleet want to reveal to the masses that Spock is alive? Surely the news of his death was spread throughout the various media. His rebirth, as it were, would be equally publicized. And many people might feel Genesis to be immoral, and Spock a part of that immorality. I think we have a very interesting dilemma here. The dilemma would end with Spock, though. There is no more Genesis. The only living member of the science team that developed Genesis, it seems, is Carol. Surely she could rebuild it with her knowledge; it would take years to redevelop, controversy brewing the entire time. And it would take years--Khan found all the Genesis data erased when he arrived at Regula I. As for Kirk's loyalty, well I wouldn't worry much about that. His record seems to show that he's loyal. If he weren't he could probably be ruling the Federation, with the help of some of the advanced races he's found (the Andromedans, for example). As for Spock being the subject of controversy. There are several ways of dealing with this, the simplest is probably to state something like the following: As everyone knows, Vulcans have remarkable regenerative capabilities, and when regenerating, are often in a trance that simulates death so closely it can fool the best of medical technology. Spock really didn't die, and the Genesis radiation simply aided his recovery. Not entirely true, I will admit, but close enough, and the people who know the truth won't talk. As for everyone else, the majority of people know about Vulcans only by hearsay (one planet, out of how many? Vulcans can't be all that usual a sight), and they'll accept it at face value. Some people may suspect that there's something more, but majority of them will probably be in StarFleet anyway. Finally, I doubt that the Secretary of the Navy knows the ages of naval vessels better than to a rough approximation. Also, the Enterprise was not the first vessel of its type, the Constitution was (that's why they're call Constitution Class vessels, not Enterprise Class vessels), so the age estimate is probably off a bit there. Your point about the age of Enterprise is well-taken. I concede my case. Commander Starfleet Morrow is a busy man, after all. Nice try with the Spock story, too. It should work, and since Genesis is no longer operational--or even existent--controversy should subside. I do not want Kirk to command Excelsior. That is just the way I feel. I was upset that David was killed, and I think it would have benefited Star Trek in the long run if his character were to have survived (even if didn't appear in another episode for half-a-dozen years). And I was upset that Spock was brought back, but very happy about it, too. And the way they brought him back was at least consistent with the ST universe. But the thing that really got to me was the destruction of the Enterprise. Now, though, I think it was a good thing to do, as far as the series goes. First of all, it surprised me (I stayed away from all rumors, articles, and commercials about Trek between STII and STIII). It almost surprised me into an early grave. It was nearly as traumatic an experience as when Spock "died." (I knew, for the most part, that Spock would die, due to the media hype. Therefore, I wasn't surprised like I was about Enterprise's destruction.) But it was an emotional experience, good drama, and that is what Trek must be in addition to all of its philosophical ideas. I hate to see Enterprise die, but better to die by saving Kirk's and company's lives than to waste away by being decommissioned and dismantled. There can be no Enterprise II--why build another Constitution-class vessel when there are more modern ships. And so there will be no new ship of Enterprise's class. Kirk commanding Excelsior? "These are the voyages of the starship Excelsior. . . ?" I hate it. I hated Excelsior when I saw her because, knowing Enterprise was being decommissioned, it was easy to blame Excelsior for that. I hate Excelsior and its captain. How about a new Excelsior-class (?) vessel for Kirk? Not Enterprise II, but. . .what? Explorer? Voyager? Journeyer? Venture? Just some ideas. Nothing, I fear, can replace the name Enterprise. (Discovery is another idea, but Arthur C. Clarke might have something to say about that.) I'd have to check on the details of the renaming conventions, but I suspect that even if its an Excelsior Class vessel, it'll be named Enterprise. This is chiefly based on the fact that there's always been an Aircraft carrier named Enterprise, and aircraft carriers have changed an awful lot since they started out. The point is that the Enterprise was a heavy cruiser. ------------------------------ Date: 09 Jul 84 18:24:07 PDT (Mon) Subject: Re: STIII: Excelsior From: Alastair Milne Several people have pointed out that New York is the Empire State; perhaps "Excelsior" is merely on the seal. I have the Oxford Universal Dictionary's word for it that it's in there somewhere. (Though "Excelsior State Building" does have rather a ring to it, no?) However, the point was not geography, but the naming of a ship, for which "Excelsior", in its Latin meaning, seems quite appropriate. Although I'm glad people are alert to inaccuracies, I hope that this is the last I will ever see on this subject. If anything was ever done to death, this has been. On a subject I prefer: does anybody know why this new warp effect has been used in the last two movies (the one in which the ship simply accelerates, and leaves behind a trial of multihued images of itself)? I thought the star-streaking effect of the first movie much more effective, and rather more likely (as far as any of this can be called "likely"). It certainly gave a better impression of the sort of speeds the ship would attain with warp drive. A. Milne ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 12-Jul SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #136 *** EOOH *** Date: 12 Jul 84 1211-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #136 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 12 Jul 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 136 Today's Topics: Books - Chalker & Constructed Worlds (3 msgs), Films - Roll Your Own Films & The Last Starfighter, Television - The Day of the Triffids, Miscellaneous - WesterCon & Cons in the South & Man vs Machine ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 11 Jul 84 11:44:58 PDT (Wednesday) Subject: Re: Jack Chalker review (still non-spoiler) From: Don Woods I'm one of those people who don't really care for Chalker, and River of the Dancing Gods (RotDG) is a typical reason why. In my opinion, he tends to come up with extremely interesting settings upon which he stages extremely poor stories. The Well World series is another example -- the very idea of the Well World is fascinating, and the setting should lend itself to all sorts of interesting stuff. But I found Midnight at the Well of Souls to be too shallow and choppy. (And I'm speaking as one who PREFERS relatively shallow stories; I find most of Gene Wolfe too deep.) RotDG has only one thing going for it, and that's the "set of rules" that govern the magical world. After all, there are godzillions of stories about worlds where magic works, and a heckuvalot of them deal with people from our world going to such places. The set of rules, however, set the story up to be a satire of all those other stories, because the rules purport to be the basis of virtually all of the cliches we know and love. ("Weather and climate permitting, all beautiful young maidens shall be scantily clad.") Some of the rules quoted in the course of the novel even poke fun at fairly specific other novels, such as Lord of the Rings. But there's not enough of it to make RotDG satisfying as a satire (I'm not convinced that satire alone can possibly support an entire novel), and as a story it's mediocre at best. The characterisations, which should be extremely full since they should contrast the cliches against more normal aspects, range from absurd to absent. The plot itself is average, with only a few surprises, and some deus ex machina for good measure. And the surprises were typically where Chalker stepped away from the satire, whereas it would have fit better had he found ways to dust off old cliches and use them where we didn't expect them. That is, my reaction to his twists was usually "Well, that's different" and it should have been "Of course! I should have known!" As the previous review (by Eric Smith) notes, the novel cries out for a sequel. (I don't want to create a spoiler by describing the ending.) Eric found this a plus. I thought it was a cheap trick and found the ending unsatisfying, but then I was bored by the whole novel and was certainly not interested in a sequel. Chalker seems to like producing series. Besides the mediocre Well World and mediocre Dancing Gods series, he's got another one (Four Lords of the Diamond) that I've been told is utterly worthless and have never bothered to read. The one book by Chalker that I've actually enjoyed all the way through was "And the Devil Will Drag You Under". Though it'll never be a classic, it was at least a good read. And it has two features that set it apart from the other Chalker I've read or heard about: (1) It not only has an interesting idea as its basis, he spends some time taking advantage of the idea to generate interesting situations and resolutions. (2) To my knowledge it has never had a sequel. -- Don. ------------------------------ From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Date: 11 Jul 84 14:33:07 EDT Subject: Constructed Worlds Lordy, it was such an awful book I had plum forgotten it... Patra-Bannk was the hollow planet from THE WORLD IS ROUND by (I think; book's at home) Tony Rothman, who is the son of another Rothman who occasionally writes SF. (First name escapes me right now.) THE WORLD IS ROUND was a sad example of a book containing a well-worked out technological concept and entirely too much filler. Patra-Bannk was a titanic shell surrounding a black hole, rotating very slowly as it revolved about its star. The combination of slow rotation and period of revolution made for some very bizarre seasons, alternately hideously cold and killingly hot. End of interesting stuff. What remains is silliness overlaid upon silliness, loose ends galore, and an ending which left one most thoroughly disappointed. This might have been something as novel as Ringworld, had the author taken the time to concoct something clever to happen on or inside the planet. Instead there is a stupid war among stupid humanoids and no identifiable motivation for any of it. The best parts of this book were the cover painting, the essay on the seasonal dynamics of Patra-Bannk, and the name of one (minor) character: Paddleack. The rest, after a year or two, has simply faded into the mud. Skip it. PS: Do remind me of any other Constructed World stories you are familiar with... --Jeff Duntemann The Carbon Filament Rat duntemann.wbst@xerox ------------------------------ Date: Thu 12 Jul 84 02:33:40-EDT From: Jacob.Butcher@CMU-CS-C.ARPA Subject: Petra-Bank Or whatever. The constructed world with the black hole in the center. The book it appeared in was called "The World is Round", and might have been by a Tony something. I don't remember the details of the book or anything, but I believe there were some type of constructed worlds in Macrolife by George Zebrowski(?). Jacob Butcher jacob@cmu-cs-c.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 12 Jul 1984 04:39:34-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Jerry Boyajian) Subject: re: BUILT worlds > From: decvax!ncoast!bsafw@Berkeley (Brandon Allbery,524-1416) > I remember reading a book about a world named Patra-Bannk which > was very much built -- (can someone netmail me the name of that > book? All I remember is the name of the planet and that it was > VERY similar to MISSION OF GRAVITY in plot) -- thin dirt shell on > metal, and a quantum black hole (& metallic-hydrogen factory) > inside. The book you're thinking of is THE WORLD IS ROUND by Tony Rothman, published by Ballantine/Del Rey about 5-6 years ago, if memory serves. Another book about articial worlds is ORBITSVILLE, by Bob Shaw, which is about a Dyson Sphere. A terrible book, though (I read the serial in GALAXY -- or was it WORLDS OF IF? I'll have to check). --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 84 20:40:36 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: bakshi and burroughs I, for one, would much prefer that Bakshi didn't even know about Burrough's Mars books, unless, of course, he was willing to put up several miilion dollars of bond money to guarantee that he *fully* animated it, rather than taking the shabby shortcuts he's so fond of. Rotoscoping, tinting old film footage, and skimping on the backgrounds are not my idea of good animation. Personally, what with the improvements made with models and puppets, I'd much prefer to see these books done as live action, since no one will shell out the money to animate them well. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 12-Jul-84 01:45 PDT From: William Daul - Augmentation Systems Div. - McDnD From: Subject: THE LAST STARFIGHTER (COMPUTER GRAPHICS WORLD July 1984) To: works@rutgers.arpa Scene on the cover article on page 62. The following is copied wthout permission. 3-D Images for the Film Industry Behind Digital Productions' Closely-Guarded Doors By W. Mike Tyler The largest producer of computer-generated 3-D images, in terms of sheer volume, is located in an obscure section of Los Angeles. One might not even notice Digital Productions' presence if it were not for a huge water cooling tower, or the extra power lines coming from a nearby utility pole. John Whitney, Jr. and Gary Demos founded Digital Productions in 1982. Together, they developed a process known as Digital Science Simulation(tm) for creating totally computer-generated images for the film industry. This month, the firm will add motion pictures to its list of TV commercial accomplishments when Lorimar Productions releases THE LAST STARFIGHTER, a full-length feature film containing 21 minutes of computer-generated images. Behind Digital Production's closely-guarded doors is the most sophisticated hardware and software ever assembled for the sole purpose of creating computer-generated imagery and simulation. The facility is capable of producing 12 minutes of film per month, where the average frame complexity is 250,000 polygons. At 24 frames/second, that is 17,280 individual images (4.3 trillion polygons). To accommodate this intensive computational load, Digital Productions has acquired a Cray X-MP computer (hence the need for the cooling tower which extracts heat from liquid freon circulating through the Cray's PC cards). In addition to the Cray X-MP, Digital Productions has a full array of data entry, encoding, and movie previewing workstations. Ramtek RM9460 imaging/graphics display systems give technical directors the ability to view fully rendered images before they are committed to film. The amount of data that can be displayed is 1280 x 1024 pixels x 24 bits per pixel, or approximately 4 mega-bytes per frame. Interfacing to the Cray X-MP via a DEC VAX 11/782, these previewing stations provide immediate feedback and allow the technical directors to experiment with a variety of different display attributes. The hardware also includes a 2560 x 2048-pixel by 10-bit/color film recorder and a high-speed custom interface to the Cray IOP. Both were designed and built be Ramtek. From a systems perspective, Digital Productions' designers are interacting with a graphic database--representing 3-D shaded solid objects, something common to many CAD system designers. However, the scope and scale of their system sharply departs from your everyday CAD operation. This has to do with the special requirements involved in the production on images for film. Most significant is the need for raw computational speed. Quality film production work for a single 35mm frame requires a film recorder resolution of 3000 x 4000 pixels and 10 bits for each color. At 10 floating-point calculations per color, per pixel, it would take 8.64 billion calculations to produce one second of film (3000 x 4000 pixels x 3 colors 24 frames/sec. x 10 calculations/color pixel). In creating realistic computer-simulation scenes, lighting and rendering algorithms require one to 10,000 calculations per color. Thus, anywhere from 864 million to 8.64 trillion calculations are needed to produce one second of animation. The Cray, at 200 million floating-point instructions per second, takes anywhere from three seconds to 10 hours to generate one second of film. Since adjacent frames contain common image features, programming shortcuts exist for reducing the overall number of calculations. Large-format 70mm movie film resolution (4600 x 6000 pixels/frame x 30 bits/pixel, or approximately 100 Mbytes of data) ups the computational requirements even further. How economical is all this? In the case of THE LAST STARFIGHTER production costs were significantly lower than filming scale models of the Armada ships and performing post-processing to make them look real. When comparing industry firsts, THE LAST STARFIGHTER includes over twice the amount of simulation that appeared in STAR WARS, and was produced in approximately one third the time, at about one quarter the cost. CONCLUSION There are fundamental parallels between Digital Productions' supercomputer environment for film-making and high-performance systems for mechanical CAD design or engineering simulation. All have a common purpose: design productivity. Each has its own intensive computation burden. But not everyone can afford access to a Cray-class computer. However, these application needs have spawned a new generation of graphics peripherals with special-purpose computation accelerators to tackle the dynamic display of complex 3-D solid objects. Ramtek's new 2020 products fall into this category. The major improvement brought by this class of device is the 3-D design takes that formerly took anywhere from tens of minutes to hours can now be done in seconds. Mike Tyler is manager of the product management group at Ramtek Corp. Prior to this, he was employed by Computer Science Corp. Mr. Tyler graduated with a B.S. in Computer Science from the University of Maryland. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 84 22:31:48-PDT (Mon) From: pur-ee!CS-Mordred!Pucc-H.Pucc-I.ags @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: The Day of the Triffids - ARTS TV > What the hell do the Triffids have to do with anything???! As far > as I can tell, this is another (very good) > end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it story. Why the Triffids? There > could have just as easily been cougars running around feeding on > the blind people. There was, of course, the interesting point that the humans began by domesticating the triffids (raising them on farms), after which the triffids returned the favor... Dave Seaman "My hovercraft is full of eels." ..!pur-ee!pucc-i:ags ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 1984 2127-PDT Subject: westercon voting From: John Platt The final vote was 147 San Diego 100 Phoenix 13 None of the above 4 Nome of the above (not a misspelling) 2 Vandenberg Air Force Base and one other vote for someplace obscure. Anyway, San Diego won. I don't believe anyone on the ConCom is on ARPAnet. Looks like you have to use the US Snail (I don't have the address) john ------------------------------ Date: 07/12/84 09:08:11 EDT ( THURSDAY ) From: Stephen R. Balzac Subject: from someone off the net I would like to know if anybody has any information on a Southern Trek con, or an sf con. By Southern, I mean North Carolina, South Carolina, and even Georgia. I would appreciate it if I could get some info about such cons that would be held in or after August. Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: 07/12/84 07:53:45 EDT ( THURSDAY ) From: Stephen R. Balzac Subject: Man vs. Machine Sure, in the movie (and books) Colossus: The Forbin Project the computer wins in a BIG way (it takes over the world). ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 13-Jul SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #137 Date: 13 Jul 84 1238-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #137 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 13 Jul 84 1238-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #137 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 13 Jul 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 137 Today's Topics: Art - Queens/ASF cover, Books - Brunner & Gibson & Godwin & Zelazney & Cthulhu, Films - Roll Your Own & Who Are Those Guys & The Last Starfighter & Movies in General & Andrei Tarkovsky, Television - The Day of the Triffids & Dr. Who, Miscellaneous - T-Shirts & Man vs Machine ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 3 Jul 84 17:24:00-PDT (Tue) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!ea!mwm @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Queens/ASF cover - (nf) In _Frank Kelly Freas, The Art of Science Fiction_, the ASF cover queen used is listed as for: _The Gulf Between_, by Tom Goodwin, Oct 53 ASF. Subject: Brunner I just finished Brunner's "Crucible of Time" and came away slightly disappointed. Brunner seemed to miss the mark with this one. The real puzzling aspect is I cannot figure out exactly why. Brunner is probably the best master of the large epic fiction. This book set out to be a multi-generation story of an alien society and the aberrations its science and culture go through because of more severe ice-ages than ours (it goes through dustier sections of the spiral arms of the galaxy). Ok, so all the components are there for an epic written on the large scale, (ala Stand on Zanzibar, Sheep Look Up, Shockwave Rider, etc.) Part of what fails seems to the be the science itself that the characters discover - it is boring. Anyone who has studied any of the history of science realized that the characters that went into its making were far more colorful than Brunner's characters, but still, the characters in SR and SoZ, were pretty dull too, Brunner is not good at characterization. Its really got me puzzled as to where this story is lacking, Just like I can't figure out the different path Herbert should have gone with DUNE after the first hundred pages. (the first hundred pages had the making of a classic epic story, the rest went rapidly down-hill as the interesting personalities were killed or underwent radical personality changes). How about a contest: Send in your suggestions for how you would revamp and recast novels that you enjoyed to the 1/2-way point, but then you felt the author made a major mistake and killed the wrong person or some other technical flaw. I can identify a couple of candidates: Zelazny: Throw away the first and last chapters of (ieeeeee!, I have forgotten the name of the novel that was based on the Hindu pantheon) Herbert: Don't kill Duke Atreides in Dune, don't change Paul's persona - Steve Gutfreund ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 12 Jul 1984 14:44:45-PDT From: dantonio%vlnvax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: Neuromancer I have read the reviews/spoilers on Neuromancer by William Gibson and they sounded suspiciously like a short story I had read so I did some research and turned up the following: William Gibson wrote a short story called "Burning Chrome" in the July '82 issue of Omni Magazine (the one with the eye-ball and person doing a back flip on the cover). It too featured a somewhat less than honest person "jacking into cyberspace" for fun and profit (mostly the later!). There was also a place called Chiba City where many people went in hopes of becoming simstim (simulated stimulation) stars, but it was a minor aspect of the story. It was enjoyable and I have reread it many times. If this is anything like Neuromancer, then I will look forward to getting a copy... Beware the black ice! DDA ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 1984 1717-EDT From: John Redford Subject: defense of "The Cold Equations" Let me put in a word in favor of "The Cold Equations" by Tom Godwin. Most SF stories are relentlessly optimistic. Given enough smarts, SFers believe that they can get around any difficulty, solve any problem. The whole point of "The Cold Equations" is that some problems cannot be solved. There is no way that both the pilot and the stowaway can both land safely. There is no way that the stowaway can land the shuttle. Therefore she has to go out the airlock. Jeff Duntemann calls this an "idiot plot", a plot that only works if everyone involved is an idiot. "Why not unbolt a chair and throw it out?", he suggests. Well, the shuttle already had to be stripped down to make it possible for it to land at all. The fifty extra kilos of a stowaway was outside of its safety margin. The idea was to set up a situation that even can-do engineers would admit was hopeless. The parameters of the situation could be changed to make it even worse. The point is that these situations exist, that sometimes there is nothing you can do. This is a true but unpleasant moral, which is why "The Cold Equations" is a good story. John Redford ------------------------------ Date: Thu 12 Jul 84 23:21:31-EDT From: Wang Zeep Subject: Wombat Science Fiction @i(Doorways in the Sand) by Roger Zelazny features an alien plainclothesman disguised as a wombat. There is also another alien disguised as a kangaroo. Fun book - humorous new wave style. wz ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jul 1984 15:19:34-EDT From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford Subject: Response to Cthulhu Mythos request. Cc: JAROCHA-ERNST@RU-BLUE Here's a story which relates to the Cthulhu Mythos, and which I think may be somewhat obscure: "Some Notes Concerning a Green Box" by Alan Dean Foster (believe it or not). The story appeared in Foster's anthology: "With Friends Like These..." published in paper by Del Rey. The book went into its fourth printing in October of '83, so copies can probably still be found floating around. The story originally appeared in The Arkham Collector, summer '71, and is not at all a bad tale, considering that it was Foster's first sale. Good luck in the search for more.... --- Jeff Rogers ARPA: jcr@MITRE-BEDFORD ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jul 84 11:35 PDT (Thursday) From: Hallgren.pa@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #134 In response to Arnold Robbins " Roll Your Own SF (Edgar Rice Burroughs) ", I also greatly enjoyed the ERB Martian series. I'm not sure about Bakshi, unless he followed the style of those great covers on the ACE paperbacks. They really had atmosphere! Clark H. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 84 8:52:48-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!zehntel!dual!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-mrvax!ddb @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Who are those guys? Does the addition of "Those guys are GOOD!" ring any bells? Both are from Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. Interestingly (and irrelevantly), the script for that film was written by William Goldman, who also "adapted" The Princess Bride, an absolutely marvelous fantasy novel that anybody who likes fantasy the least little bit has GOT to read. -- David Dyer-Bennet -- ...decwrl!rhea!mrvax!ddb ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 84 0:47:00-PDT (Sun) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!ea!mwm @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: The Last Starfighter, ramblings upon - (nf) Micro Review: Oooh. Aaah. Mini Review: A Star Wars clone, except they did a better job. See it. Review: ****** Begin Spoiler ********* (unless you've seen the commercial!) _The Last Starfighter_ is yet another of the space opera stories to follow in the (very large) footsteps of SW. However, they have a couple of extra years of fx experience and a CRAY XMP (listed in the credits, btw) to work with. The animation is - well, the bad parts are excellent. The stargun liftoff scenes alone are worth the price of admission. Atari will be marketing an arcade game under the title "Starfighter", presumably the game seen in the movie, and presumably using graphics sequences from the movie. Making sure they get the most from their computing dollar, I guess. Like SW & Tron, this movie is more light show than movie. The plot line & character development may have a little more than SW; meaning none to speak of. Like those two movies, it's fun. They stole everybody's favorite plot line: "Young unknown comes from someplace in the boonies to save the Universe/World/Country/Empire" (I assume that it's everybody's favorite based on the number of times it's been used! :-) and made it a vehicle to carry their effects, along with lots of high-speed action. They played the movie light, with some good (and unexpected!) humor. The result works well. One nice additional touch were the "in joke" references to sf classics. I caught scenes either stolen from or referring to: _Star Wars_ (of course) both IV & V, and probably VI; _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_ ("We're going to throw *what* at them, Mike?"); _Dr. Strangelove_; The Lensman series; The Skylark series, and the Arthur legend. There are probably more. Summary: If you liked SW and Tron, you'll like this. If you like computer animation, you'll like it. If you like heavy plots with good, solid 3d characters, you'll be disappointed. If were lucky, and if SF is lucky, the Trek adventure WILL continue >for at least one more good movie. So, counting that one and the one after that, that would be a total of two good movies, right? The first one was awful. The second one was a good ST episode, meaning it was good for SF done by Hollywood. The third one was laughable - right up there with "The Creature of Crater Lake," only with better effects. >Its just about the only thing that keeps SF alive in hollywood, or >gives it so much as a thread of credibility. Since when is SF alive in Hollywood? Let's see, lately we've had some *bad* fantasy (Conan & company), a *good* horror film (Alien) and some excellent humor (Galaxina, Ghostbusters) that were at best tolerable SF, and one movie (Bladerunner) that was good SF but a mediocre movie. Star Wars was all right, but the plot line occasionally got in the way of the movie. At first, they didn't have any pretensions: it was Space Opera, pure and simple. It was even good Space Opera, though it was lousy SF. The second one tried to do character development, and it sorta fell apart. Some day, I'm going to see the third one. Next, we have _Have Spacesuit, Will Travel_, uh, excuse me, that's The Last Starfighter. It looks like it could be as good as the first SW movie, *if* they can avoid trying to make it something it isn't. It will still be a good movie that's lousy SF, though. I'll give a full report on it after I see it. >Star Trek forever Probably. Undead are hard to kill. Subject: a defection Andrei Tarkovsky, the Soviet director of "Stalker" and "Solaris", both science fiction films, as well as several other non-science fiction films, defected from Russia yesterday. He sited the usual "artistic freedom" reasons. He apparently was especially annoyed that the Russian government had allowed him to make only 6 films in over twenty years. He has not yet decided where he will live, but America seems unlikely. Anyone who has seen "Stalker" can attest to the fact that he does not make typical Hollywood films. His last film was made in Italy, so he'll probably wind up there. Tarkovsky is considered by many to be the finest living Russian director, but he was never in much favor with his government. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Fri 13 Jul 84 08:38:39-PDT From: Chris Stuart Subject: Re: The Day of the Triffids - ARTS TV > What the hell do the Triffids have to do with anything???! As far > as I can tell, this is another (very good) > end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it story. Why the Triffids? There > could have just as easily been cougars running around feeding on > the blind people. Early in the book, the comment is made that the real advantage people have over triffids is that people can see. Then we all become blind... I presume the author wanted a set of bad guys that were blind already, and earthworms didn't fit the bill. Chris Stuart ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 84 13:46:09-PDT (Sun) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!akgua!psuvax1!burdvax!sjuvax!5863mp11 @ From: Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: TARDIS isomorphism If you think about it, since Sutekh was so very powerful (able to destroy planets, etc.) and since he was able to quite readily control the Doctor, it is logical to conclude that he must be able to read the doctors mind (how else could he, controlling the doctor, pilot the tardis?). Therefore, one is able to assume that Sutekh would have known it was a bluff and wouldn't have gone to all the trouble of taking over the good doctor, and instead would have used him for a bit of amusement while what's his name (the archeologist) took the tardis and went to the pyramids. Of course, this is just my opinion, others are intitled to theirs (incorrect though they may be) ------------------------------ From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Date: 12 Jul 84 16:02:36 EDT Subject: Ghostbusters T-shirts To: ddern@BBN-UNIX.ARPA As of 7/12/84, every major T-shirt place in Rochester New York had plenty of Ghostbusters T-shirts. Call around. --73-- Jeff Duntemann "If there's somethin' weird in your FCB, Who ya gonna call? BUGBUSTERS! If your BIOS croaks on a CTRL-Z, Who ya gonna call? BUGBUSTERS!" (I ain't fraid of no crocks...) ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jul 1984 0932-EDT From: Warren Sander Subject: Man vs. Machine >>Sure, in the movie (and books) Colossus: The Forbin Project the >>computer wins in a BIG way (it takes over the world). If you read the next book "The Fall of Colossus" you find out that with the help of 'alien' intelligence's a simple input problem is enough to cause the new even better Colossus (talked about in the first book) is brought to it's knees because it's input backs up to an uncatchable level. Of course in the 3rd book "Colossus and the Crab" it all works itself out. Read the books they are very much different from the movie. Also keep in mind that they were written in the 50's or 60's so don't expect to much from them. Another Man vs. Machine book is "The Adolesance of P1" in this book an IBM 360/30 of all machinces develops an Artifical Intelligence and begins doing some different things Also there is Hogan's "Two Faces of Tomorrow" where the men make a super computerized intelligence and then attack it to make sure that they can shut it off... This is an excellent book... oh well more later Warren Sander (Sander at DEC-MARLBORO) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 16-Jul SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #138 Date: 16 Jul 84 1127-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #138 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Jul 84 1127-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #138 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 16 Jul 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 138 Today's Topics: Books - Dick & Constructed Worlds (4 msgs) & Book Request Answered & "The Sword of Allah", Films - Digital Productions & Movies in General & The Last Starfighter & "Legend" & Star Wars, Television - Dr Who & Outer Limits ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Jul 84 17:46:11-PDT (Thu) From: decvax!cca!ima!ism780!paul @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Philip K. Dick: In His Own Words - (nf) Philip K. Dick: In His Own Words by Gregg Rickman with an Introduction by Roger Zelazny $9.95, paperback, 256 pages Published by Fragments West/The Valentine Press 3908 East 4th Street Long Beach, CA 90814 This book is based largely on interviews with Dick during the last year or so of his life. It is the first of a projected three volumes. This book is a must for anyone interested in the life and works of PKD; it is obviously a labor of love. I have no connection to any of this except as a fan of Dick's writing. Paul Perkins ...{uscvax|ucla-vax|vortex}!ism780!paul ...decvax!yale-co!ima!ism780!paul "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" ------------------------------ Date: Thu 12 Jul 84 17:49:16-PDT From: Per Bothner Subject: Constructed worlds: Orbitsville I don't think anyone has mentioned a pair of books by Bob Shaw, an Irish author popular in British fandom. (Back in the 50-ies he wrote with Walt Willis the classic fannish allegory "The Enchanted Duplicator".) Shaw is also famous for the "Slow Glass" series, and is a very funny speaker. The original book, "Orbitsville," came out around the same time as Niven's "Ringworld," and so didn't get much notice in the states, but in many ways it's a superior story. Orbitsville goes all the way: it tells about the discovery of a Dyson sphere. The political and personal interactions are also interesting, what with Earth effectively ruled by an autocratic woman named Elizabeth, and the protagonist having to flee her wrath. Strongly recommended. I don't know if the book is in print in American paperback, but it should be available from Britain. Recently, a sequel has come out, which I haven't seen. --Per Bothner ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jul 1984 2007-EDT From: John Redford Subject: constructed worlds Here are all the constructed worlds that I can think of, including the ones that have been mentioned already: "Ringworld" and "The Ringworld Engineers" by Larry Niven - The classic example. There is some planet-shuffling in "The World Out of Time" as well, but no planet construction. "Orbitsville" by Bob Shaw - Dyson sphere with Earth-like condtions inside (well, Earth-like except that the sun never sets). I think there's a sequel out now. "The World is Round" by Tony Rothman - Jupiter-sized hollow planet whose main reason for existence seems to be to make it tough for the people on it to realize they are living on a sphere. They go ahead and prove it anyhow, using the same techniques we did. "Wall Around a Star" by Jack Williamson and Fred Pohl - Extra-galactic star-size planet attacks the Milky Way. "The Farthest Star" also has the same premise. "Strata" by Terry Pratchet - People find Earth-moving machinery left over from an alien civilization and start to roll their own. "Cageworld" by Colin Kapp - Four volumes in this series are out now. Giant computer builds shells around the Sun to provide more living room. The old planets (the "cageworlds") sit in gaps in the shell like ball bearings in a race. Kind of glosses over where all the material comes from. "Starmaker" by Olaf Stapledon - A history of intelligent life in the universe, with lots of macro-engineering towards the end, eg hollowing out crusts of dead stars. "Titan","Wizard", and "Demon" by John Varley - Creatures a hundred kilometers across with habitable conditions inside and eccentric masters. "Maker of Universes" by Philip Jose Farmer - Humanoid aliens make pocket universes as playgrounds. Earth is one of them. There are several books in this series, but this was the only title I could remember. "Riverworld" only counts as terraforming (not that digging a million mile long river is easy), not as real planet construction. And finally let me mention "The New Cosmogony", a short story by Stanislaw Lem (collected in "A Perfect Vacuum"). The trouble with all this cosmic engineering is that we don't see it taking place. Surely if re-arranging stars were possible, some alien race would already be out there doing it. Lem's answer is that the early civilizations have gone beyond that; instead of manipulating crude matter they work with the stuff of physical law itself. Anomalies like quasars are past mistakes. Asymmetries like the spins of muon emission are problems that are not yet worked out. The theory would be proved if we saw these wrinkles being ironed out. And why aren't there any intermediate level civilizations? Because the big boys don't want anyone else to play. It's time to start shielding our TV broadcasts. /jlr ------------------------------ Date: 13-Jul-84 12:39:55-EDT From: decvax!ncoast!bsafw@Berkeley (Brandon Allbery,524-1416) Subject: Re: Patra-Bannk and Constructed worlds I like to hang on ideas. It's the only way to survive that portion of SF that is covered by Sturgeon's Law (the percentage is closer to 99% around here, though). Other constructed worlds: The best I have yet read of is Ringworld; unfortunately, the local modified Law keeps me from seeing many others -- or is it that SF authors don't write many of them? If so, it's a pity -- lots of GOOD ideas, and rarely are they treated with the mastery needed. (Niven, yes, but he enjoys weird settings; did I hear that his latest has people living in a cloud in space?!) Does anyone have any good constructed-world ideas they'd either like to see written about, or RE-written about by someone who knows what he's doing? Brandon Allbery: decvax!cwruecmp{!atvax}!bsafw 6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, OH 44131 "himself being one universe's prime example of utter, rambunctious free will!"  ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jul 84 9:26:46-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!cas @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Constructed as in BUILT, guys... Farmer did another series of 5 (short) books, collectivly called "The Tierworld Series" (or some slight variant on that). Worlds in this universe are quite definitely constructed. It is a little like Riverworld, but not so pretentious. I think they are the best books he has done (but then, I don't care much for most of Farmer's work). There is, of course, The Hitch-hikers Guide to the Galaxy... Cliff Shaffer ...!rlgvax!cvl!cas ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 12 Jul 1984 14:36:51-PDT From: dantonio%vlnvax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: Book Request In answer to the request for the name and author of a book in which colonizers come to a planet with brain parasites, I believe this book(s) the person had in mind: Wayfarer Trilogy by Dennis Schmidt: Way-farer published 1978 by Ace Books (Portions appeared in somewhat different form in Oct '76 and May '77 Galaxy) Kensho published 1979 by Ace Books Satori published 1981 by Ace Books I liked this trilogy (each book can be read seperately, especially Way-farer) even with my limited knowledge of Zen. There is a lot of sword by not much sorcery and some Zen Koans make it into the text. Hope this helps... DDA ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jul 84 9:11:30-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!tektronix!tekchips!vice!keithl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: The Sword of Allah - BAD I know the rest of you are too smart to buy "disaster SF", but I know one of the authors so I bought: The Sword of Allah by "Richard Elliot" (actually Portland, Oregon "SF Review" editor Richard Geis and Salem, Oregon author Elton Elliott) Mini-Review: Something this awful has to be intentional. Review: (Please Laugh - justify my typing this in) The characters in this turkey are the Pedophilic Evil Scientist, the Heroic CIA Agent, the Evil Financiers, the Deluded Sister of Radical Survivalist, and the Woman Vice President. Pedophilic Evil Scientist (hereafter PES) builds Immensely Powerful Space Plasma Beam Weapon to help Fanatic Arab Dictator (backed by the EFs) rule world. PES secretly points IPSPBW at Sun, causing Sun to go crazy. H-CIA-A singlehandedly invades, gets captured, gets loose, destroys command center. But the laser causes Sun to emit one hour burst of intense microwaves, roasting the Eastern Hemisphere (and PES). H-CIA-A returns to US to help WVP establish martial law and protect US from black market depredations of EFs. Meanwhile, the DSRS (remember her?) stumbles on a Secret Underground Control Center (SUCC?) in the southern Oregon mountains. She nearly gets killed by the guards, but is hospitalized by the benevolent government and given money to stay quiet. Ungrateful DSRS leaves and goes to Radical Survivalist Brother, who leads capture of SUCC. WVP is now WP, who has drafted entire country, and taken over the economy, so that we can survive aftermath of Eastern Hemisphere Roasting, such as the high winds INTO the heated area (at all altitudes!). WP escapes Washington, and neads SUCC to continue controlling country. H-CIA-A single-handedly captures SUCC. What Can We Learn From This Book? 1) Watch out for Pedophiles (They may be Evil Scientists!). 2) Watch out for Evil Financiers (who fund Pedophilic Evil Scientists). 3) The universe will go out of control at the drop of a technological hat. 4) CIA agents are Heroic and Good. 5) Microwaves penetrate thick metal, but take minutes to do so. 6) Air contracts when it heats. 7) People go crazy in disasters. 8) Totalitarian control is the only way to survive major disasters. That's most of the jokes. The writing was average pot boiler. Worth speed reading if you're in a cynical mood and get the book free. Probably will be a major bestseller. Keith Lofstrom uucp: {ucbvax,decvax,chico,pur-ee,cbosg,ihnss}!tektronix!vice!keithl CSnet: keithl@tek ARPAnet:keithl.tek@rand-relay ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jul 84 14:18:21 PDT From: so.pa@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Digital Productions Question: How does a start-up company like Digital Productions acquire a Cray X-MP? Are they buying time on it? Or, are they leasing it? Or what? ~ Bosco ~ ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jul 84 5:28:16-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!elsie!imsvax!rcc @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Movies in general (and BLADERUNNER) >Since when is SF alive in Hollywood? Let's see, lately we've had >some *bad* fantasy (Conan & company), a *good* horror film (Alien) >and some excellent humor (Galaxina, Ghostbusters) that were at best >tolerable SF, and one movie (Bladerunner) that was good SF but a >mediocre movie. Whoa, back off. Bladerunner is one of the best movies ever made period, IF you ignore the voice-over. The Hollywood movie execs killed it by adding the voice-over and turning it into a stupid 1940's style detective movie. They also cut out a scene that should have been left in. Remember that two of the replicants died before getting to Earth? One died in battle (killed in the space station, I believe), the other self-destructed. The scene where the replicant died of "old age" was cut out. In that scene, the replicant dies in front of the others and one of the things he (she, I forget) does is clench and unclench his hand. Makes Roy's clenching and unclenching his hand more significant, no? Next time you get a chance, see Bladerunner and ignore the voice- over. A VERY good movie. The preceding message was brought to you by -- Ray Chen UUCP: umcp-cs!eneevax!imsvax!rcc ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jul 84 15:29:00-PDT (Thu) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!ea!mwm @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: none - (nf) ************Ghostbusters SPOILER******************** No, I agree with Ben Walls. Before Sigourney Weaver started having problems, the Ghostbusters had captured the thing in the ritzy hotel, and I think a couple of others, and put them in their toaster. No, you have it backwards. Sigourney Weaver was the Ghostbusters first customer. "Remember" - The three defectives were sitting around eating a take-out Chinese meal, and Bill Murray says "I'll need to draw some petty cash to take her out to dinner. After all, we don't want to lose her." One of the other two (Akroyd?) says "This magnificent feast represents the last of the petty cash." While this is going on, the secretary is taking a call from the hotel, along with lines like "They'll be totally discreet." After she hangs up the phone, she shouts "We got one!," and the ghostbusters head for the hotel, entering with the totally discreet line "Hey, has anybody seen a ghost." So, Sigourney's problems must have started *before* the Ghostbusters toasterized any ghosts. "Gee neat. We're being invaded." ! Re: the message saying "The characterizations are poor (in The Last Starfighter), but this is SF, so who cares". This is one of my major complaints with the way Hollyweird handles SF attempts. I can't judge TLSf, as I haven't seen it yet, but I don't like it at all when movie makers take the attitude that since this is "just sci-fi", then all the rules of character development, plot, logic, etc., can just be thrown out the window. The worst abortion along these lines that I have seen recently is the last "V" movie. There are certainly other things in good SF that may be at least as important as the usual stuff-- ideas, for instance-- but Hollyweird SF very rarely has any ideas worthy of a sea cucumber anyway. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jun 84 21:42:12-PDT (Fri) From: decvax!mcnc!ncsu!ncrcae!usceast!ted @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: legend : what is it? I saw an incidental article in the paper today about a fire on the set of an sf movie called _Legend_. This was the first I had heard of the movie. Does anyone know anything about it? Is it going to be another version of Matheson's _I am Legend_ ? Ted Nolan ...usceast!ted 6536 Brookside Circle ...decvac!mcnc!ncsu!ncrcae!usceast!ted Columbia, SC 29206 ("Sixty-sixty?" he suggested) ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jul 84 10:59:32-PDT (Sat) From: hplabs!nsc!proper!mikevp @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Continuity error in STAR WARS - the ANSWER In the "A New Hope", just before Han Solo dropped out of hyperspace into the Alderaan (sp?) system, there was a scene in the window similar to the "wormhole" in "Star Trek: The Motion Picure". ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jul 84 0:29:42-PDT (Thu) From: pur-ee!ecn-ee!hsut @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Dr. Who memorabilia - (nf) I've seen a Doctor Who game for sale in the States. This place claims to get a lot of Dr. Who stuff from England, tho... Bill Hsu ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jul 84 12:46:26-PDT (Fri) From: decvax!tektronix!sues @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: OL episode? Just a point of curiousity - is "Outer Limits" being run on any stations anywhere out there? My parents thought me too young to watch the show when it was on (probably true) though they did let me watch "One Step Beyond" once in a while. Just wish I had a chance to see the old "Outer Limits" episodes now. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 16-Jul SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #139 Date: 16 Jul 84 1159-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #139 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Jul 84 1159-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #139 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 16 Jul 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 139 Today's Topics: ******SPECIAL STAR TREK ISSUE****** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 Aug 83 20:52:47 EDT From: Jaffe@RUTGERS Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!! The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the movie "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock". People who have not yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following messages. Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) ------------------------------ Date: Thu 12 Jul 84 02:35:08-EDT From: Jacob.Butcher@CMU-CS-C.ARPA Subject: james TIBERIAS kirk Wasn't Kirk's middle name revealed in the original TV show? After all, it is everyone's favorite piece of Star Trek trivia. jacob ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 84 0:28:10-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!andrew @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Question on STIII novel "When the ENTERPRISE is making its break from Starbase, Uhura stays behind to jam all the communication channels. This is what prevents other starships from intercepting Kirk and crew. One of the things she does is to mix in TV shows, old movies, and other entertainment into Starfleet communications. One of the lines we hear is from an "old movie": "Who ARE those guys?!?" "Is this just some trivial line or does it have some significance? I seem to remember it from somewhere but I can't place it. Anyone got any ideas?" The line is from the movie "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid." It is spoken several times while the title characters are trying to elude a posse that they just can't seem to shake. -- Andrew Klossner (decvax!tektronix!orca!andrew) [UUCP] (orca!andrew.tektronix@rand-relay) [ARPA] ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 84 6:43:55-PDT (Mon) From: ihnp4!houxm!hou2d!jacx @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Question on STIII novel ("Who ARE those guys?!?") "Who are those guys?" is a quote from the movie Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. "Those guys" refers to a posse which Butch and Sundance were having difficulty eluding. John Cadley AT&T CPL Neptune,NJ ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 12 Jul 1984 07:56:05-PDT From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (The Stainless Steel Rat) Subject: Ship names, commissioning, etc. Attempts to clear some of the issues presented re: Enterprise, renaming, decommissioning, courts-martial, etc. The use of a ship name is in no way tied to the class of that ship other than by convention. US Navy battleships have been for some time named for US states, cruisers for cities, etc. But there have been many deviations, especially among aircraft carriers, which have borne names ranging from the Presidents (Franklin D. Roosevelt, John F. Kennedy) to an erstwhile Secretary of the Navy (James E. Forrestal) to insects (Wasp, Hornet), Revolutionary War battles (Lexington, Yorktown, Saratoga) and off-the-wall names like Enterprise. The first Enterprise wasn't an aircraft carrier; if memory serves me correctly, she was a corvette or a frigate, under sail. The second and third Enterprises were other classes. The most recent Enterprise is a space shuttle, albeit one that will never fly. So there is no real problem with naming an Excelsior-class ship "Enterprise". But it's an UGLY ship! And it's a dreadnought, which is clearly too big to go gallivanting about the galaxy at the whim of an unregenerate gadabout like Kirk - it would be like assigning an aircraft carrier to courier service. I suspect that there will be a new class of heavy cruiser, of which one ship can be a new Enterprise. Ships are decommissioned when they have outlived their usefulness. The US Navy is REcommissioning a SECOND mothballed World War II battleship to join the New Jersey; my son, who is usually right about this sort of thing, says it will be the Missouri. There are many other ships of the same vintage still in use, from refitted light cruisers down to lowly minesweepers and sub tenders. And the USS Constitution, built in 1797, is, believe it or not, a fully commissioned frigate in the US Navy. Granted, the Constitution is a special case, but she serves to underscore the "usefulness" aspect. So 20 years is not too old for a ship - the Enterprise of ST could certainly have been found a berth, even if it were as a yacht or ferry craft. Her 2-1/2 year refit before STTMP is proof that Starfleet was willing to spend LOTS of money to keep her in service; it is hardly consonant with such determination that she'd be decommissioned only a few years later. Courts-martial are the exclusive province of the military. If it so chooses, the military can, after holding its own trial, remand a prisoner to civil authority for further trial by same. As for Kirk's disobedience of orders and vindication for having so done, I cite the case of Lieutenant William Calley, who is serving a life term for the extermination of the people of My Lai in 1968. It was made very clear during his trial that what he did was wrong (that's why they threw the poor sod in jail!), but had he refused to follow the orders that led to the massacre, then Calley would have been tried and convicted of wilfully disobeying a direct order given him by a superior officer. Under combat conditions, EVEN IF NOT DURING A DECLARED WAR, such disobedience is classed as desertion under fire, and the prescribed punishment is death by firing squad (cf Private Edward Slovik, WWII, executed for desertion in the European Theatre). Applying this precedent to James T. Kirk, and given the recidivistic nature of his behaviour, the proper course for Starfleet would almost certainly be to have shot him long ago. The argument that such an execution, or even the lesser punishment of cashiering him, would be a waste of talent doesn't bear up, as no military organization can afford to have a commander who will not follow orders. It is deemed beneficial to destroy a miscreant, even a talented one, in light of the example the affair will set for others who might be contemplating similar offences. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 84 12:16:17 EDT From: Ron Natalie Subject: Self consuming computers. Wrong Star Trek Episode. In the Ultimate Computer, Mark V did not consume itself by applying more of it's own resources to the problem to a problem. It did however get power hungry and started taking over more of the ships resources before it decides to commit suicide to atone for the killing that it did. It was Wolf in the Fold, where Spock sets the computer out to compute PI to drive out the "Jack the Ripper" entity that has inhabitted it. -Ron Nonsequitor, your thoughts are uncoordinated. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jul 84 12:49:49 EDT From: KIESCHE@RU-BLUE.ARPA Subject: STII "Goofs" To the Gentleman who took issue with my comments regarding STIII-- I hate to say it, sir, but it turns out my rationalizations of STIII (i.e., the Klingons, the Bird-of-Prey, etc.) are NOT goofs. It turns out that there is INDEED an active cross-fertilization between the folks at Paramount and the folks at FASA/Fantasimulations, producers of the Star Trek Role Playing Game. This is confirmed in conversations with the authors of the game (see the interview, which I conducted, coming shortly in SPACE GAMER, the gaming magazine published by Steve Jackson Games, of Austin, TX). Fantasimulations worked closely with Paramount, in order to make sure that the game would work with the new facts released from the movie. Among the various items developed by Fantasimulations are rationalizations and ship diagrams (as well as some really nifty miniatures) of all the ships in the movie. Furthermore, I have learned that *everything* that is produced for ST outside of the movies--i.e., books and game materials--is collected by Paramount and put into files for possible use by the film producers. Among some of the material used in STIII ARE THE MANUSCRIPT BY JOHN M. FORD, THE FINAL REFLECTION AND THE KLINGONS SUPPLEMENT PRODUCED BY FASA/FANTASIMULATIONS. Indeed, one of the co-designers of the Klingons Supplement expressed his amazement and delight that he had experienced in seeing that the emblems worn by the Klingons were *HIS* designs! So, sir, before you jump down my throat next time, take a deep breath and think things through. I, at least, took the trouble to check my facts. May I suggest that you do the same, as well? Respectfully submitted, Frederick Paul Kiesche III Free-lance reviewer and author, SPACE GAMER/FANTASY GAMER ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 13 Jul 1984 09:51:31-PDT From: goun%elmer.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Roger H. Goun) Subject: Re: Star Trek III Stephen, A minor quibble with your interesting debate: There is no more Genesis....Khan found all the Genesis data erased when he arrived at Regula I. The novelizations make it clear that the Genesis data was hidden in the Genesis cave on the planetoid near Regula I. In the most recent novel, David and Saavik go down there to retrieve it. The issue of Genesis can be kept very much alive if that's what the producers want to do. I personally think it's time for a new storyline in the "Star Trek" movies, though. I hope Kirk's court-martial/exoneration/ execution isn't the entire focus of "Star Trek IV." -- Roger Goun ARPA: goun%elmer.DEC@decwrl.ARPA UUCP: {allegra, decvax, ucbvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-elmer!goun USPS: Digital Equipment Corp., HLO2-2/H13 77 Reed Road; Hudson, MA 01749 MCIMail: RGoun Tel: (617) 568-6311 ------------------------------ From: ihnp4!vortex!ttidca!ttidcb!robertsb@Berkeley Date: 14 Jul 84 01:48:13 CDT (Sat) Subject: Star Trek III -- Enterprise Several messages have refered to the decommissioning of Enterprise, including the recent "debate" published by Stephen R. Balzac. I'd like to plug my two cents worth. First, the Enterprise had only been refitted with a new engine/power system and new weapons and shield systems "at least seven and a half years ago" in a "two and a half year refit" ( quotes from Balzac's mat'l ). Now why would a two and a half year refit result in something so useless as to be decommissioned only seven and a half years later? Quite obviously the Enterprise is quite fit for its duties especially after its recent refit. Perhaps it isn't "state of the art" but in surface navy practice ( which everyone seems to be borrowing from ) very few ships are brand new. For that matter, ship hull construction and power systems change infrequently. The United States is refitting ships currently that were originally constructed over forty years ago. ( The New Jersey and her sister ships, Iowa class I believe ). Now weapons technology does change but it is very easy to refit ships with new weapons kits. It's currently done all the time with aircraft and ships. I am forced to conclude that the idea that Enterprise is to be decommissioned is just a plot device to have her empty of crew when Kirk decides to run off with her. Actually a clumsy plot device as even at the time I said the instant that it was mentioned the Enterprise would be decommissioned that it was stupid. My second point is that I found the idea that the Enterprise could be defeated by a very small Klingon scout ship quite silly. First of all that a ship virtually always controlled by one computer or another couldn't easily be controlled by a hand full of people through existing computer systems ridiculous. Now I didn't say the rest of the crew was not useful in a fleet battle or extended cruising. What I said was that the five people on board should have been able to hold out against a scout ship for more than five minutes. Robin D. Roberts ATT: (213) 450 9111 x2916 uucp: left as an exercise for the instructor. "Death to Tyrants!" ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jul 84 6:53:33-PDT (Fri) From: decvax!linus!philabs!rdin!abs @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Star Trek honoring Arthur C. Clarke(?) Stephen Balzac recently speculated about the possibilities of replacing the Enterprise as the Star Trek crew's chief means of locomotion. One paragraph in particular caught my eye: > How about a new Excelsior-class (?) vessel for Kirk? Not > Enterprise II, but. . .what? Explorer? Voyager? Journeyer? > Venture? Just some ideas. Nothing, I fear, can replace the name > Enterprise. (Discovery is another idea, but Arthur C. Clarke > might have something to say about that.) It has occurred to me that a (subtle) link between Star Trek and Arthur C. Clarke may be in the making, to wit: I'm sure that you all noticed that the serial number of the Excelsior was NX-2000. Wouldn't it make sense (as Stephen hypothesized) that the ship intended to replace the Enterprise also be called Enterprise? And since it is very likely that this "New Enterprise" will be the next ship in the Excelsior Class, then wouldn't it make sense to assume that its serial number will be NX-2001? And doesn't the number 2001 have significance in a milieu other than that of Star Trek? Will "Star Trek IV" be directed by Stanley Kubrick? Food for thought... Andrew Siegel philabs!rdin!abs ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jul 84 13:36:20-PDT (Sat) From: ihnp4!gargoyle!oddjob!matt @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Question on STIII novel ("Who ARE those guys?!?") > When the ENTERPRISE is making its break from Starbase, > Uhura stays behind to jam all the communication channels. This is > what prevents other starships from intercepting Kirk and crew. > One of the things she does is to mix in TV shows, old movies, and > other entertainment into Starfleet communications. One of the > lines we hear is from an "old movie": > "Who ARE those guys?!?" > Is this just some trivial line or does it have some significance? > I seem to remember it from somewhere but I can't place it. Anyone > got any ideas? I don't know, but it was also the title of a record by the New Riders of the Purple Sage. (Erstwhile warm-up group for the Greatful Dead.) Matt University ARPA: crawford@anl-mcs.arpa Crawford of Chicago UUCP: ihnp4!oddjob!matt ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 18-Jul SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #140 Date: 18 Jul 84 1354-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #140 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Jul 84 1354-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #140 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 18 Jul 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 140 Today's Topics: Administrivia - Policy Reminders, Books - Niven (2 msgs) & Piper & Constructed Worlds (4 msgs), Films - "Enemy Mine" & Acquiring Crays & "Legend" & "Bladerunner" & Movies from Hollywood & Computers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 3 Jul 84 15:34:37 EDT From: Saul Subject: Administrivia It seems it is time once again to issue a reminder to people who read this digest of the policy I have tried to follow. First, messages which are to be included in this digest are to be sent to SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS. There are several reasons for this the most important being that the messages are automatically forwarded to people on the USEnet who read messages as they come in rather than in digest form. SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@RUTGERS should be used for messages that are only supposed to be read by the moderator. These messages include change of address, removal from mailing list, requests for missing copies, etc. Messages sent to this address that are intended for inclusion in the digest will be ignored. When sending messages to SF-LOVERS, try and stick to one topic. That is one author, book, or film. Many people may not be interested in one of the topics but are interested in another. The way messages are split up allow people to decide whether they want to go through an entire message or just skim through it to the next. If you keep your messages to one topic it is much easier on all of us and your message will get into the digest sooner. Also, this is a forum for discussion of SF. Messages have been included announcing various events like Worldcon or public appearances of famous people on occasion in the past. When posting such information please do not include any pricing information. For political reasons we cannot seem to be "selling" anything. You can of course give an address or phone number of where to get further information. Also please state whether the event is a money-making event or non-profit. Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jul 84 10:33:50-PDT (Fri) From: decvax!tektronix!orca!mako!davidl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Larry Niven Lightbulb Jokes (obscure) Q: How many Pierson's Puppeteers does it take to change a lightbulb? A: None, it's too dangerous. They'll hire someone else to do it. Q: How many Thrintun does it take to change a lightbulb? A: 17,002. One to discover a new slave world, 17,000 to enslave it, and one to direct the actual operation. Q: How many Grogs does it take to change a lightbulb? A: None. You'll do it for them. Q: How many Pak protectors does it take to change a lightbulb? A: Three million and one. One million to fight a huge, senseless, bloody war over who should change it, one million to research the nature and location of the lightbulb, one million to build the tools, and one to change the lightbulb. Q: How many Kzinti does it take to change a lightbulb? A: None. Kzinti can see in the dark! Q: How many Kdatlyno does it take to change a lightbulb? A: What's a lightbulb? Q: How many Motie engineers does it take to change a lightbulb? A: Only one, but you won't recognize it when she's done with it... David D. Levine (...decvax!tektronix!tekecs!davidl) [UUCP] (tekecs!davidl.tektronix@csnet-relay.csnet) [ARPA] ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jul 84 11:20:19-PDT (Fri) From: decvax!tektronix!orca!brucec @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: more Larry Niven Lightbulb Jokes (obscurer) Q: How many Trinocs does it take to change a lightbulb? A: Three. One to change the bulb, one to be suspicious of the one changing the bulb, and one to to be suspicious of the one being suspicious. The one changing the bulb is already suspicious. Q: How many Outsiders does it take to change a lightbulb? A: One, but he may not get around to it for a few thousand years. Q: How many Tnuctipun does it take to change a lightbulb? A: The entire Tnuctipun race. They have to design a genetically engineered animal species with a specialized lightbulb-changing limb. Q: How many Motie Mediators does it take to change a lightbulb? A: None. It will get trashed in the next collapse anyway. Q: How many Jinxians does it take to change a lightbulb? A: Seven. Four to tear off the walls of the room, two to lower the ceiling, and one to change the bulb. Q: How many psionically lucky humans does it take to change a lightbulb? A: None. The light bulb will never go out. Bruce Cohen UUCP: ...!tektronix!orca!brucec CSNET: orca!brucec@tektronix ARPA: orca!brucec.tektronix@rand-relay USMail: M/S 61-183 Tektronix, Inc. P.O. Box 1000 Wilsonville, OR 97070 ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 84 11:17:51-PDT (Wed) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!linus!utzoo!kcarroll @ From: Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: FUZZIES AND OTHER PEOPLE by H. Beam Piper From what I've read from various sources, I gather that the reason that Piper suicided (or at least the proximate one) was that he was broke, and had a philosophical objection against going on welfare for a living. The reason that he was broke, was that his literary agent had died, and not left any records to show whether Piper was owed any money. Piper thought that his stories were no longer selling, that he was a failure. In fact, Piper's agent had sold several of his novels to Analog (I think) before dying; he just didn't let Piper know about it. So, if Piper had known about how successful he in fact was, he might never have felt despondent enough to take his option. Personally, I think that this is one of the greatest tragedies in the SF circle. Piper was a great writer, and but for an unlikely turn of fate, he might still have been with us. -Kieran A. Carroll ...decvax!utzoo!kcarroll ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jul 84 10:57:43 PDT (Tuesday) From: Jef Poskanzer Subject: Re: constructed worlds All the constructed worlds messages, though fairly repetitive, missed one very good example: "Moonbow", by J. P. Boyd, a novelette in the May 1981 IASFM. It was not a particularly good story, but the construction was excellent. Imagine a very thin donut about one-fifth as big as the sun. Specifically, it's got a major radius of 150,000 km, minor radius of 1500 km, surface gravity 0.2 Gs, about 1 Barr of air pressure, toroidal spin of 6 km/sec, and 16 times the surface area of Earth. I call this type of object a torusworld. At the time the story came out, I was investigating them on my own, so the story got me pretty excited. One thing I like about torusworlds is that, unlike EVERY other non-trivial constructed world in SF, you can build them with known physical laws and without unreasonably strong materials. Another thing I like is the gravitational dynamics. Boyd's story did not say much about that aspect, but I can tell you they are pretty wild. For example, there is a helical orbit looping through the "hole"... The best technical reference on torusworlds is "Hydrodynamics", by Sir Horace Lamb, first published in 1878. There is also a paper by Laplace, published in 1780, looking into whether the rings of Saturn could be a torusworld. "Plus ca change..." Jef ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 1984 10:04:49 EDT From: Macintosh Devaluation Manager From: Subject: Created Worlds "Orbitsville Departure", the sequel to Bob Shaw's "Orbitsville", was published late last year in Britain by Gollancz. It's impossible to discuss plot details without spoiling the entire book, but it's fair to mention that the real purpose behind the construction of the Dyson Sphere finally is revealed...and it's a definite surprise. Rumour has it that US publication may occur this year. The original was one of the early Ace SF Specials, I think, and the sequel may join the new series. "God's World", by Ian Watson, should be added to the list of created worlds. Again, it's not out in the States, but should be available from shops that carry imports (e.g., Bakka (Toronto), the Science Fiction Shop (NYC), or A Change of Hobbit (LA).) ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jul 84 9:56:06-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!jonab @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: constructed worlds I am suprised that no one has mentioned Larry Niven's latest "constructed world", from his book "Integral Trees". This world is very interesting, because it is not a world, per se, only a breathable gas torus around a neutron star. Jon Biggar {allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,sdccsu3}!sdcrdcf!jonab ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jul 84 15:49 EDT From: Denber.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Subject: More constructed worlds There's also Farmer's "World of Tiers" series, in which a race of "Lords" uses an advanced technology to create entire universes, and populate them with planets, creatures, etc. for their own amusement. Even physical laws can be specified. Access between universes is via "gateways". I had read one book of this a long time ago and got a pointer here to the rest of the series last year. I liked all five books, although things got rather silly towards the end (The Lavalite World). "Who are you?" "The new Number Two" - Michel Arpa: Denber.WBST@Xerox UUCP: RF: KB2BQ ------------------------------ Date: Tue 17 Jul 84 10:23:49-EDT From: Wang Zeep Subject: Enemy Mine "Enemy Mine" is being made into a movie and will be directed by Wolfgang Peterson ("Die Unendliche Geschichte", "The Boat") and will star Lou Gossett, Jr. and Dennis Quaid. (Source: 7/15 Boston glob) Yoww! Finally, a film which isn't a re-make of a Heinlein juvenile. Despite comments that Barry Longyear "stole" the plot for "Enemy Mine" from a WWII film, it was a very good story and I believe it won a Hugo. wz The Hastelloy C Gnat ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jul 84 11:36:24 PDT (Tuesday) From: Isdale.es@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #138 >Question: How does a start-up company like Digital Productions >acquire a Cray X-MP? Are they buying time on it? Or, are they >leasing it? Or what? DP owns the CRAY (actually BofA owns it). The founders managed to locate a company with lots of excess profits and a strong interest in computer graphics...Ramtek Corp. a major manufacturer of CG hardware. Ramtek has poured many millions into DP and has backed the BofA loans. Also DP was able to convince CRAY that it would be good publicity and they might someday be able to sell CRAY's with DP's graphics software. The purchase price of the CRAY isnt the real money problem. The operational costs are outrageous.. $50,000/month+ for on site service, 100Kilo Watts per hour power + power for cooling system, etc. etc. When DP isnt using the XMP, they sell time on it thru a subsidiary called Vector Production. Anybody need a few cycles?? A side note: Digital Prod. originally had a used CRAY 1S that Boeing Computer Services traded in for a newer model. The video game scenes, some starfields and most of the star car sequences were filmed on this machine. The X-MP was not installed until December 1983. ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 17 Jul 1984 12:09:08-PDT From: dearborn%sage.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Randy Dearborn, Media Graphics, From: MK01/2N25, DTN:264-5090) Subject: Re: legend : what is it? > I saw an incidental article in the paper today about a fire on the > set of an sf movie called _Legend_...Does anyone know anything > about it? Legend is the newest film from Ridley Scott (Alien, Blade Runner, Apple 1984 Ad, etc.) The fire broke out while filming a special effects shot. the sound stage burned to the ground. The stage was the "007 Stage" at Pinewood Studios, Iverheath, England, the world's largest film stage. Having visited the stage myself, I can confirm that it was indeed quite large. It was built for the production of "The Spy Who Loved Me" to shoot the oil tanker interior scenes. Since then, it has appeared in Superman I,II,III, Krull and a few other films. I don't know how the fire will effect the production of _Legend_. The loss of the "007 Stage" is quite tragic. I don't know if Pinewood, or their owners Rank Films, can afford to rebuild it, insurance or not. I hope that they do. Randy Dearborn Digital Media Graphics SAGE::DEARBORN 603-884-5090 ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 17 Jul 1984 12:20:51-PDT From: dearborn%sage.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Randy Dearborn, Media Graphics, From: MK01/2N25, DTN:264-5090) Subject: Re: BLADERUNNER COMMENTS > Bladerunner is one of the best movies ever made period, IF you > ignore the voice-over. The Holywood movie execs killed it by > adding the voice-over and turning it into a stupid 1940's style > detective movie... I agree that BLADERUNNER is a fine film. However, I remember reading an interview with Harrison Ford in which he said that the voice-over was part of the ORIGINAL concept for the film. The 1940's look was integral with Ridley Scott's directoral vision. I will admit that the editing is a little uneven and that some scenes should have been handled differently, but few films have captured a vision of the future as effectively as BLADERUNNER. Yes, ignore the voice-over. I do, every time I watch my copy. Randy Dearborn Digital Media Services Merrimack, NH SAGE::DEARBORN 603-884-5090 ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jul 84 16:56 PDT From: woody.pasa@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Sigh-Fie Movies from Hollywood I'd love to see a SF movie someday which uses special effects to add to, not carry, the movie. This is where I thought Star Wars did well; the effects were there to add to the action, not the other way around. And also this is where I thought TRON died horribly; the plot, characters, and action were only excuses for the pretty computer graphics. (Not to say I didn't enjoy the movie; I saw it twice.) To me, the ideal movie would be one where there is extensive character development, plenty of action to help the story line, and effects to make it all pretty. And it's not impossible to have all this in a short, two hour movie; there are plenty of excellent short stories which could be made into a two-hour movie without any problems, and yet fit the bill. William Woody 1-60 Caltech Pasadena, CA 91126 "Research would have been continued along this line, but wasn't, because the author didn't know what the heck was going on...." ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jul 84 15:49 EDT From: Denber.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Subject: More constructed worlds Why shouldn't computers barf in movies? I mean it wouldn't be very entertaining if the hero typed "Why do you exist?" on the console, and it just typed back "UNDEFINED CAR OF FORM - Why". Anyway sometimes computers really do blow up. There was a story on the net a while back about some unfortunate soul who plugged his backplane into the wall socket. "Who are you?" "The new Number Two" - Michel Arpa: Denber.WBST@Xerox UUCP: RF: KB2BQ ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 18-Jul SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #141 Date: 18 Jul 84 1412-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #141 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Jul 84 1412-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #141 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 18 Jul 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 141 Today's Topics: ******SPECIAL ISSUE - FILMEX REVIEWS****** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 14 Jul 84 12:43:29 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: movie review: "Eyes of Fire" Another film from Filmex, "Eyes of Fire" is an unusual fantasy/horror film. It's set in 1750 on the American frontier. A preacher with somewhat loose moral standards for his own behavior barely avoids hanging and escapes to the wilderness with several of his loyal followers. They float downriver on a stolen raft, pursued by the husband of the woman the preacher has been fooling around with. Hostile Indians and Frenchmen force them to land and flee to a valley which the Indians have marked as taboo. As always in such films, there's a damn good reason the Indians won't touch it with a ten foot pole. Good thing that the settlers have unknowingly brought along their very own witch, a girl the minister saved when her mother was burned as a witch (they had a real difficult time with her; the fire kept going out...). Ever since saving her, the minister has been unusually lucky. For instance, the rope breaks when the villagers try to hang him. "Eyes of Fire" is beautifully photographed, in a backwoods area of Missouri. The art direction is also quite good, as are the effects and makeup. The film cost only a little over a million to make, but looks much better than that. There are a lot of shocks and general grossness, but little blood and dismemberment. The first-time director, Avery Crounse, relies more on good, old-fashioned shock effects than "Friday the 13th" style butchery. His background as a still photographer shows up in some lovely shots. It is only fair to mention that opinion on this film is divided. Many critics thought that Crounse had taken an interesting situation and then just dumped it in favor of standard horror film nonsense. Some people leaving the theater were saying how great it was, others thought it was a piece of trash. I, myself, liked it a lot. It will probably be released in a few months. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Jul 84 13:06:39 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: movie revies: "A Science Fiction Omnibus" More news from Filmex. The programmers grouped together five science fiction and fantasy shorts made within the last couple years in Canada and the US, under the title "A Science Fiction Omnibus". The films are between 13 minutes and half an hour in length, and, as might be expected, are uneven in quality. "The Plant" is a film from Canada about an unusually virulant houseplant taken in by a lonely fellow. Eventually, it takes over his house. The stop-motion effects are well done, and well integrated, and there's nothing wrong with the film, but it's a bit thin. "Quest" is based on an original Ray Bradbury story, and is directed by Saul and Elaine Bass. Saul Bass is the fellow responsible for the credit sequences of the James Bond films, and many other films. The story concerns a world in which people live for only eight days, and a boy who is sent out to open a set of doors which will allow light to flow through and give the people longer lives. He must overcome many obstacles on the way. The imagry is truly dazzling in this little short, and it includes some first class model and matte work, as well as a good miniature effect. The story, unfortunately, is overly familiar. None the less, the splendid effects made this the audience's favorite, and mine as well. "Renascence", on the other hand, drew hisses and boos. Half an hour of a nasty fellow killing off a young woman and reviving her so that she can do his household chores and serve as his victim again. The photography, in black and white, was good, and the actors played there parts as well as possible, but it's far too long and repetitive. "Strange Tangents" combines some pretty good effects with what is truthfully the worst acting I've ever seen on a movie screen, and I've seen over 3000 films. The writing also stinks. The whole is obviously an attempt to showcase the special effects talents of the makers. The story concerns a sorceress' attempt to recover a crystal from a far dimension before her master croaks. There's a lot of good effects, setting aside some second rate and unnecessary stop motion photography of a salamander (apparently literally a Ray Harryhausen reject creature). There are four speaking parts, and all of the actors would be booed off the stage at a junior high school play. "The Final Hour" concerns a convicted space commander on his way to his last appeal before he is executed fo murder. He must save the two person vessel he is travelling on from disaster, and also attempt to escape. A set of final twists is totally without impact. There are no special effects worth speaking of (other than lots of sparks and smoke), and the sets were either copied from Roger Corman's sf films or perhaps are even the same sets slightly disguised. Not really worth the trouble. Overall, I highly recommend "Quest" (if you know someone who programs for conventions, tell him/her that it's a sure hit), would suggest seeing "The Plant" if you don't have to go out of your way to do so, and recommend "Strange Tangents" for those interested in special effects, even when they're all a film has going for it. No need to walk out of "The Final Hour" if you happen to find yourself watching it, but don't bother looking for it. Avoid "Renascence" at all costs. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Jul 84 21:09:36 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: Fantasy film: "Pessi and Illusia" Yet another report from Filmex. This one is on "Pessi and Illusia", a Finnish fantasy film. The story takes place during an unspecified, but, considering the weaponry, contemporary war, in Finland. A father writes home to his young daughter. In his letters, he tells her stories about a gnome named Pessi and a fairy named Illusia. Illusia has come from the kingdom of her father, the rainbow, to see what Earth is like. She meets Pessi, who immediately falls in love with her. A cruel spider cuts off Illusia's wings, leaving her unable to return to her home. When winter comes, Illusia is ill equipped to handle the cold and snow, but Pessi helps her, stealing a shovel from the humans to build a nest for her. The spider is still after Illusia, as is a ferret. Moreover, they have a rather different problem. The soldier father's story is not set in the distant past or the far away, but in the present and right where he is. In other words, the creatures have to deal with a modern war, complete with helicopters, amphibious tanks, and high explosives. The film has an unexpected message. Rather than dumping on war, it suggests that you cannot really appreciate life until things get rough. This film was obviously made for children, but not for very young children. It's particularly inappropriate for young American children, as their parents would have to read them the subtitles. Whether you, an adult, will like it depends on your tastes. Try this test: does the thought of a man, a woman, and half a dozen children dressed up as fieldmice, scampering about, make you want to retch? If so, "Pessi and Illusia" isn't for you. I have a reasonable tolerance for this sort of thing, so I enjoyed it. Actually, you probably won't have to worry about this, as I can't see anyone thinking that they're going to make much money distributing it, and it isn't good enough to attract the attention of those who care more about quality than money, and will take a chance on an interesting film. Unless someone runs a Finnish film festival near where you live, or the local revival house programmers are fond of novelties and don't mind working to get them, you probably won't get a chance to see it. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Jul 84 19:31:04 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: film review: "The Plague Dogs" Another bulletin from Filmex. "The Plague Dogs" is an animated version of the book by Richard Adams, better known for "Watership Down". In fact, Martin Rosen, director of "The Plague Dogs", also directed the film version of "Watership Down". This film shares some of the same characteristics. The animation is fairly good. It's not up to Don Bluth, but it's much better than Ralph Bakshi (there's damning with faint praise). There are a few good multiplane shots which, unfortunately, only draw attention to the weakness of the rest of the animation. The character animation is spotty, and the backgrounds range from good to mediocre. The dogs in question speak to each other, and to other animals, which provides the fantasy connection, if any. The story is really depressing. A couple of dogs escape from an experimental facility. One of them has just had some brain surgery which plays games with his reality. The other was subjected to repeated near-drownings in an attempt to find out if its endurance increased. Once the dogs have escaped, though, they find themselves in the middle of England's Lake District, and are forced to survive by killing sheep, which doesn't endear them to the populace. They are befriended by a canny fox, who helps them out of numerous scrapes in return for a share of their kills. As the story of their escape leaks out, another leak reveals that the laboratory was also doing research on bubonic plague, presumably for the army. Though the dogs haven't been infected, the level of public hysteria greatly increases. Coupled with some truly abominable luck, this causes the net around the dogs to grow tighter and tighter. This wasn't very cheerful in print, and a new, more downbeat ending (added with Adam's approval) makes the film even less so. In fact, it's apparently killed dead any chance of the film having a general release in the near future. Despite some glowing reviews, business in test dates has been extremely disappointing. This is definitely animation for adults. If I had a five year old, I don't think I'd want to discuss the pros and cons of vivasection with him after seeing this film, and I don't think he'd have anything approximating a good time. If you do want to see it, you seem to have two options. There has been a sale to HBO, the cable network, so it should appear there soon. Also, it will be coming out on videocassette. I would give the film a qualified recommendation. Many of those who saw it with me were more enthusiastic. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Jul 84 19:34:26 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: a film version of "Out of the Silent Planet" Martin Rosen, director of "Watership Down", is working on a live action adaptation of C.S. Lewis' "Out of the Silent Planet". It is still in the scripting stages, but Rosen sounds confident that it will be made. He mentioned that he intends to combine "Out of the Silent Planet" and "Perelandra" into a single film. The time frame on this is two to four years from now. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 84 02:26:47 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: Movie Review: "Ring of Power" My penultimate report from Filmex: "Ring of Power" is an animated rock and roll fantasy which has already received limited distribution under the title "Rock and Rule". The film has been complete for at least 6 months, but they're having some trouble getting distribution. "Ring of Power" isn't really a very descriptive name, as the only ring in the movie is used just to identify someone early on, and then is seen no more. The story is set in a post-holocast world in which dogs, cats, and rats have mutated into more human-like creatures. Mok, a rock star with magical powers, wishes to call up a nasty critter from another dimension, apparently just to prove that he can do it and to raise a little hell. To do this, he must find someone with a special voice to sing a certain song at the right moment. This is where the ring comes in. It recognizes the right voice. The only female member of a second rate rock band turns out to be the lucky one. Mok kidnaps her and heads for Nuke York (sic), followed by the other members of the band, including Angel's (that's the girl) sweetheart. Mok intends to unleash his demon during a rock concert, but Angel is unenthusiastic. Mok captures the clowns and uses them to force Angel to sing the song. Whoops, tough luck, Nuke York doesn't have enough electrical power, so the demon only trashs Carnagey (sic) Hall. Back home to Ohm City, where there's power aplenty. Here we have the rock concert to end them all, good faces evil, and so on. You get the picture. The animation is fairly good. The backgrounds are really great, the characters, which owe a lot to early Ralph Bakshi, less so. Mok is obviously physically modelled on Mick Jagger, almost to the point of it being actionable. The character concepts aren't much, neither is their execution. One exception is a Mister Rogers-like TV character called Uncle Mikey (or something like that), whose short bit is so good that it seems like it's out of another movie. The voices are nothing special. There are 9 or 10 rock songs in the film, contributed by Deborah Harry, Cheap Trick, Lou Reed, Iggy Pop, and Earth, Wind, and Fire. This doesn't conform to my tastes in rock, but the songs are generally unobjectionable, if also unmemorable. Overall, I would recommend the film to students of animation, mostly for its backgrounds and animated special effects. Others who like the groups and individuals who contributed music might also be interested. As for the rest, well, if you don't have to go out of your way, and it's cheap, and you had nothing else to do anyway... Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 18-Jul SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #142 Date: 18 Jul 84 1431-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #142 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Jul 84 1431-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #142 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 18 Jul 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 142 Today's Topics: ******SPECIAL ISSUE - THE LAST STARFIGHTER****** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 Aug 83 20:52:47 EDT From: Jaffe@RUTGERS Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!! The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the movie "The Last Starfighter". People who have not yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following messages. Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jul 84 21:16:13-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!akgua!gatech!spaf @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: The Last Starfighter Review (Non-spoiler) Well, I saw "The Last Starfighter" tonight. Capsule review: entertaining, humorous, definitely not high art, great special effects (they credit "Super Computer -- Cray XMP," amongst other luminaries), some good performances, and generally poor directing. Worth $2 to $3 but I'd skip the full price showing. Okay for most children and some adults :-). Now for some specifics. The movie could have used a stronger story and some tighter direction. Too often a scene was shot to emphasize the hokey aspects rather than just get the point across. The lead actor (whose name escapes me at the moment) did a really nice job in his role. He overplayed it at times, but his dazed look and incredulous glances really made some scenes memorable. Dan O'Herlihy (where have we seen him before?) played Grig, the alien, and did a pretty passable job of conveying emotion -- especially considering the lizard skin makeup. Robert Preston was marvelous in his overacting, as usual. And the female lead didn't really get her role fleshed out much. In fact, every time I saw her, I nearly laughed. The poor girl looks almost exactly like Robbie Benson (in drag, of course). The special effects are great. The computer generated/enhanced shots were very well done and were more realistic than any I have ever seen in a commercial film. Unfortunately, the mattes in some scenes were not of the same high quality. Overlays, such as explosions, etc., sometimes didn't look quite right. Proportions were off in spots. Character development and motivation were poor. Background was almost non-existent. I never really got a good feel for why most of the characters were doing the things they did. I had some idea of what was going on because I had read the novelization, but the people with me who hadn't read it were left with a number of questions. Still, I enjoyed the movie. I'd go see it again rather than Indiana Jones, for instance. I might even go see it again instead of Star Trek III, but that depends on my mood. The Last Starfighter has some moments of high humor, and the audience laughed and cheered through a number of scenes. It's great entertainment. Check it out. And hold your breath until DUNE hits the screen.... Off the Wall of Gene Spafford The Clouds Project, School of ICS, Georgia Tech, Atlanta GA 30332 Phone: (404) 894-6169, (404) 894-6170 [messages] CSNet: Spaf @ GATech Arpa: Spaf%GATech.CSNet @ CSNet-Relay.ARPA uucp: ...!{akgua,allegra,hplabs,ihnp4,masscomp,ut-ngp}!gatech!spaf ...!{rlgvax,sb1,uf-cgrl,unmvax,ut-sally}!gatech!spaf ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 84 14:35:47-PDT (Wed) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!trwrb!trwspp!urban @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Conan and Last Starfighter (minor spoilers) The best thing about the preview of "Last Starfighter" was that they let you in for the regular showing of "Conan the Destroyer" and allowed you to stay for "Last Starfighter". Meant I got to see two mindless movies for the price of one. (I'm from the "mindless is OK if you don't fool yourself into thinking that you're getting Something Important" school. 'sides, this is Summer.) I liked "Last Starfighter" quite a bit more, even though the only really heroic character in the film is the Beta unit. The oft-mentioned Cray-crunched graphics are impressive as hell, but there's a long way to go before computer graphics can look as convincing as models. Two reasons: no motion blur (the stop-motion/go-motion business) and the preponderance of flat-grey glare-free surfaces. Still, there were some pretty convincing sequences, and it WAS real pretty to watch. As for the story, the movie that it most resembles ISN'T "Star Wars" (aside from the Young Hero Who Saves the World). It's "This Island Earth". The alien humanoids even LOOK a little like the Metaluna folks. I really don't understand why every space-opera film is accused of being a "star wars imitation" after all this time. The arrival of Our Hero at the Good Guy base and his confusion, and discovery of what's going on, is one of the high points. The set-up for the battle was pretty reasonable, as the Bad Guys destroy the Good Guy base and spaceforce except for Our Hero. But the Decisive Space Battle is singularly unexciting. When the climax finally occurred, my reaction was "oh. Was that it?" Lay this problem firmly at the feet of the director and editor, who evidently didn't watch SOME parts of "Star Wars" well enough to learn about pacing and how to build to a climax. On the other hand, the "meanwhile, back on Earth" stuff is quite enjoyable, with some weird humor, and some nicely menacing villains in the picture too. The performances are generally good, with Robert Preston stealing the show, and Daniel O'Herlihy managing to somehow use his eyes to convey a surprising amount of character through a face full of latex. Finally, whether you like the film or not will really depend on how you respond to its basic good-hearted, innocent, romantic, and even unashamedly corny approach to the story. Me, I'm a sucker for that sort of stuff, so it's about a 7.9 on my scale of 10. And it's probably a 9.0 or 10.0 if you're about that age (or are kids too cynical nowadays?) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Jul 84 9:52:24 EDT From: Daniel Dern Subject: The Last Starfighter - Recommended (Non-spoiler) THE LAST STARFIGHTER -- Highly recommended Here's a four-star summer film with no redeeming social value, so pack up your troubles and get airconditions for a few hours. If you like aliens, space ships, video games, and fantasy fulfillment, you'll love this. There's also an amazing amount of humorous bits, which I wouldn't dream of spoil for you by telling. Try for a theater with a good (dolby) sound system; it's worth it. The special effects are good. I found myself thinking about Robert Heinlein's "Have Space Suit -- Will Travel" at times, both during and after seeing this flick. The similarity is both protogonists want to "get out of this small town, go to a good college and do something with my life." The difference is that Clifford "Kip" Russell (in Space Suit) was a budding engineer/scientist/boy scout (i.e., a typical Heinlein hero of that era), and Alex Rogan (in Last Starfighter) has, apparently, a phenomemal skill [...see for yourself, for what it's worth] and not much beyond that in the way of redeeming or interesting character, personality -- the kid would make a good vanilla ice cream sunday, if you poured hot fudge over him. His younger brother is much more interesting, and hip, too. In fact, Alex is much like Luke Skywalker -- a medium sized galoot ripe for teenage audience identification, which no real problems or personality of his own. Yawn. However, this movie makes no pretensions at being any deeper than a sandbox, or any more meaningful -- far less than Star Wars -- and I loved almost every minute of it. I think this is the golden age of sf films, so let's go go go. Daniel Dern ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Jul 84 02:06:41 CDT From: Mike Caplinger Subject: SFX in THE LAST STARFIGHTER This is the first movie I can remember that has a credit for a supercomputer; the Cray X-MP of Digital Productions. And the special effects are pretty good, even startling at some points. But they're marred in a few places. The most objectionable is a strobing effect when an object flies right by the "camera" while moving at high speed, as nearly everything does in TLS. Because there was apparently no attempt to blur for motion, objects appear unnaturally jerky. This is a great example of why blurring is important in computer graphics. Less obvious is the Mach band effect as cylindrical objects are seen to be built up out of rectangles. This is usually well-hidden, but look for it on munitions in the Gunstar's bays, and on the Ko-Dan fighters. Finally, things just aren't dirty and bumpy enough; nearly everything is a smooth, metallic, Phong-shaded surface. A bit more random texturing might have been appropriate. Certainly the asteroid (fractal surface?) was a little too regular. None of this detracts from the film as a whole, and the graphics themselves are great fun to watch; there are lots of bits here that simply couldn't be done with models. Also, There's a good article on the SFX in the June CINEFEX, along with GHOSTBUSTERS. - Mike ps. Watch for the DR. STRANGELOVE reference during the Starfighter briefing session! ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jul 84 01:54:16 EDT From: JoSH Subject: Last Starfighter [no spoiler] Coming out of the theatre from The Last Starfighter, the following conversation took place between my wife and myself: me: Some of the scenes were synthesized by computer, could you tell which ones? her: Of course, it was obvious. me: Well, I guess they haven't gotten to the point where graphics are indistinguishable from live action, but I thought they were pretty close... her: It looked pretty indistinguishable to me. me: But you just said-- her: I was kidding. I have no idea which scenes were generated. Well, now. The review of TLS I read in the newspaper gives no hint that the reviewer knew that the more spectacular half of the sets existed only in the imagination of a Cray X-MP. It has only just occurred to me that a large segment of the viewing public may not realize it either. --JoSH "You're having a terrible nightmare." ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 18 Jul 1984 06:09:41-PDT From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (The Stainless Steel Rat) Subject: The last Starfighter, reviews of... **************************************************** * SPOILER REVIEW * SPOILER REVIEW * SPOILER REVIEW * **************************************************** The idea that a backward, earthbound video-arcade wizard snatched up from his trailer-park home can save the galaxy (universe?) from the clutches of an evil emperor is sure to be popular escape fare, but it's so poorly done in The Last Starfighter that I'd have to say that the sums spent to make the film, and the probably greater sums that will be spent to see it, are wasted. The film is trash. There isn't a plot. From the moment that Robert Preston's Star Car appears, it is a foregone concusion what the rest of the film will be like. There is very little acting - with few exceptions, golliwogs or Cabbage Patch dolls could have displayed more emotion in reading the lines. The boy/girl sub-plot doesn't add to the film because the girl never gets into danger - there isn't any real reason for her presence except as a foil for the humourous scenes with the Beta unit. There aren't any outstanding special effects. All the full-size spacecraft interiors, exteriors, et al. are stock-in-trade for any studio today. The use of digital simulation for all the usual miniatures, glass paintings, and such was a clear stroke of genius, because it cost only a fraction of what the equivalent models and paintings would have done. I call it genius because the producers got their money's worth; the simulations are so obviously simulations as to be disturbingly unrealistic. Sure, they're vastly better than what we see on our Apple and IBM PC screens. But that's not the point - if they're not good enough to pass as real, then they aren't good enough to pass off as real. The creature makeup was quite well done, but the Rylans' hairlines, both male and female, smacked of Munchkins, and I couldn't suppress a snigger when I first saw the girl beckoning to Alex to get out of Centauri's car. The effect was such as to belie any seriousness that might have been intended in dealing with the Rylans. Casting was reasonable. The use of archetypical father figure Dan O'Herlihy as Grig showed real thought, as did the casting of Robert Preston, of "Music Man" fame, as the lovable con artist Centauri. These two veteran character actors did more to save the film's shaky credibility than all the others together, but even their superior talents couldn't manage the job. Sorry, folks, but it ain't worth it. If you feel that you can't live without seeing The Last Starfighter, then go to a bargain matinee. Cheers, Dick Binder (The Stainless Steel Rat) UUCP: { decvax, allegra, ucbvax... }! decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-dosadi!binder ARPA: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 19-Jul SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #143 Date: 19 Jul 84 1137-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #143 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Jul 84 1137-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #143 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 19 Jul 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 143 Today's Topics: Books - Barker & Ing & Zelazny & Cthulhu Films - Is Star Wars Truly Science Fiction? (3 msgs) & Conan & "Elfquest" & 2010 & Dune (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 11 Jul 84 15:02:31-PDT (Wed) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!trwrb!trwspp!urban @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Man of Gold M.A.R. Barker started thinking up his imaginary world of Tekumel, we are told, when he was 10 years old. Tekumel is extraordinarily rich in culture, geography, history, languages, and mythology and is probably the first such creation that can justifiably be compared to Tolkien's world with respect to the sheer volume of creative energy that has gone into it. Perhaps most appealing about it is that it is not yet another medieval European clone-world, but is more strongly influenced by a combination of Arabic, Hindu and (curiously) Central American Indian languages and cultures. But where Tolkien used the conventional forms of literature as his public outlet for his mythology, Barker instead found his medium in 1975 in the then-infant medium of Fantasy Gaming, and published "Empire of the Petal Throne". Since then, the game has been completely revised and rewritten and is published under the name of "Swords and Glory". This month, Barker's first novel of Tekumel, "Man of Gold", has been published by Daw books. As a first novel, it's not bad, but nothing special. The Young Hero is somewhat vapid (a common enough fault) but the people around him are pretty interesting folks and everyone has the unmistakably "alien" feel of a really different culture. The resolution of the plot has a couple of interesting twists to it, but I don't want to generate a spoiler. The problem with the book is that Barker is rather more caught up with showing you his world and giving you something of a travelogue than he is interested in coming up with a really original or interesting story. He's not the first writer to have this problem (Lichtenberg's Sime/Gen novels come to mind), but I was hoping for more from such a creative fellow. On the other hand, I already knew a fair amount about Tekumel, and was glad to "visit" it again, so I enjoyed it anyway. To a reader new to his world, the reaction might be either intrigue or utter confusion; I'd be interested to hear. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jul 84 15:25 PDT From: Tom Perrine Subject: "The Gunsel" I have read and enjoyed both "Systemic Shock" and "Single Combat" by Dean Ing. I have been told that there will be a third book out this Fall, called "Wild Country" and that the series is called "The Gunsel." Can anyone confirm the existence of a third book? Thanks, Tom Perrine ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jul 1984 10:20:59 EDT ( MONDAY ) From: Stephen R. Balzac Subject: Zelazny etc Zelazny's book based on the Hindu Pantheon is Lord of Light. Speaking of Zelazny, has anyone heard anything more about his new Amber novels? ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jul 84 15:22:37-PDT (Mon) From: pur-ee!ecn-ee!hsut @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Response to Cthulhu Mythos request. - (nf) I learned about the correspondence on the Cthulhu Mythos a little late --- could someone mail me the original note with the list of stories? Here are a few contributions. I hope one or two haven't appeared on previous lists... 1) The Horror at Oakdene and Others by Brian Lumley (Arkham House 1977) This contains 3 Mythos tales including the title story, "Aunt Hestor" and "Born of the Winds" which was later expanded into a novel (I think). Like most of Lumley's stuff they're interesting but not very special. 2) Lost Worlds by Lin Carter (Daw 1980) Two "posthumous collaborations" with Clark Ashton Smith, "The Scroll of Morloc" and "The Stairs In the Crypt" and "The Thing In The Pit".(notice the "Robert Blake" titles!) These are little fantasies in the style of C.A. Smith with references to the more obscure monsters like Gnopkehs, Voormis and Nyogtha. 3) Demons by Daylight by Ramsey Campbell (Jove/HBJ 1979) An uneven collection by in my opinion one of the best new Mythos writers. This has one piece related to the Mythos, "The Franklin Paragraphs", where the author pokes fun at his own stories and the Mythos in general. 4) New Tales of the Cthulhu Mythos ed. Ramsey Campbell (Arkham House 1980) contents: Crouch End by Stephen King The Star Pools bu A.A. Attanasio (passing references to names, etc) The Second Wish by Brain Lumley (passing references) Dark Awakening by Frank Belknap Long (not bad) Shaft no. 247 by Basil Copper (again, only passing references) Black Man With A Horn by T.E.D. Klein (the best of the collection) Black Tome of Alsophocus by Martin Warnes (pos. coll. with Lovecraft ...not terribly interesting) Then Curse The Darkness by David Drake (nice story, but no further comment since I detest Drake's prose...) The Faces At Pine Dunes by Ramsey Campbell Michael Crichton's Eaters of the Dead mentions the necronomicon in the appendix but is not really related to the Mythos (great stuff, nevertheless!) Basil Copper's novel The Great White Space pays clear tribute to At the Mountains of Madness, but does not mention any Mythos names or books. The premise and atmosphere are also distinctly Cthuloid. Bill H. pur-ee!hsut ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jul 84 9:37:34-PDT (Sun) From: ihnp4!ihuxt!martillo @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Is Star Wars Truly Science Fiction? Can Star Wars really be considered science fiction? The story takes place a long long time ago in a galaxy far far away. Although the characters use technology the real focus is the mystical pseudo-magical force. The story strikes me as fantasy or science fantasy. Star Trek on the other hand takes place in our near future (which makes it an optimistic story line -- humans will solve the problems of today and advance and solve the problems of the future). There is a focus on the technology like the Enterprise, the transporter, warp drive, phasers and similar devices and techniques. Face it the phaser seems like a more reasonable futuristic weapon than the light sabre. Hollywood seems only rarely to produce genuine science fiction (in the case of Star Trek only because of trekkie pressure). Situations which seem like science fiction are only used as vehicles for fantasy (Star Wars) or horror (Alien) or some more traditional genre. Who wouldn't break for whales? Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jul 84 15:59:18-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!ames!barry @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Is Star Wars Truly Science Fiction? > Can Star Wars really be considered science fiction? The story > takes place a long long time ago in a galaxy far far away. > Although the characters use technology the real focus is the > mystical pseudo-magical force. The story strikes me as fantasy or > science fantasy. I agree completely, and I think this confusion between STAR WARS and real science fiction has caused a certain amount of unfair criticism of the film. George Lucas, himself, (in an interview in Rolling Stone) calls STAR WARS a "space fanatasy", and either that or the more common "space opera" are the most accurate designations. Yet much of what criticism there has been of SW condemns it for not being "real" SF, even though it was clearly not intended to *be* real SF. I have always managed to love the movie for what it is, namely, the best damn space opera yet put on film. > Hollywood seems only rarely to produce genuine science fiction (in > the case of Star Trek only because of trekkie pressure). > Situations which seem like science fiction are only used as > vehicles for fantasy (Star Wars) or horror (Alien) or some more > traditional genre. Sad, but true. Those most guilty of being unable to distinguish between real SF and space opera are the Hollywood producers, themselves, and the success of STAR WARS probably helped confirm them in their airheaded idea of what SF is. Real SF films continue to be made only once in a blue moon, and good ones even less often. The only additional point I want to make is that this is not the fault of SW or of Lucas, who made a wonderful film that some silly people insist on mistaking for science fiction. FRIENDS AND FOES: Note name-change Kenn Barry from "ames-lm" to "ames" in NASA-Ames Research Center UUCP address Moffett Field, CA Electric Avenue: {dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames!barry ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jul 84 11:42:17-PDT (Tue) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!trwrb!trwspp!brahms @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Is Star Wars Truly Science Fiction? In my opinion Star Wars is Science Fantasy. Star Trek, 2001, 2010, Silent Running, etc. are Science Fiction. -- Brad Brahms usenet: {decvax,ucbvax}!trwrb!trwspp!brahms arpa: Brahms@USC-ECLC ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 84 14:35:47-PDT (Wed) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!trwrb!trwspp!urban @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Conan (minor spoiler) "Conan" was written by Conway and Thomas, comic-book writers, and it shows. Eventful, colorful, fast-paced, but you really gotta leave your brains in the lobby. Rather like a Dungeons and Dragon adventure where there's only one effective character in the party. This was the main problem: Conan surrounds himself with a thief, a sorceror, a tough-willed fighter or two, and a Plucky Young Heroine, but Conan is the only character who really gets to do anything effective for the Quest. In fact, he recruits the wizard because "you need a wizard to fight wizardry", and then the wizard does nothing effective the entire time they're in the evil wiz's nifty ice palace. Just not enough going on when Arnold isn't flexing his biceps. So as an "action-adventure" film, I'd only give Conan a 5.5. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 84 02:06:42 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: "Elfquest" movie Nirvana Productions, which at one time was planning an animated version of Wendy & Richard Pini's "Elfquest", is definitely not making this film. I heard this direct from the mouth of one of the executives of the company. The rights have reverted to the Pini's. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jul 84 10:43:42-PDT (Sun) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: 2010: Odyssey Two A question to the panel: The upcoming movie version of "2010" is, I realize, to be released in December. I also realize that the original group of "Odsseiers" are back for their second trek out to the gas giants. However, could someone in the know answer the following question: Is Kubrick the Director???? Should be a fun movie...I heard MGM spent a fortune reconstructing the sets for the Discovery...it seems that the original blueprints have been lost/destroyed/stolen/whatever. So, they painstakingly blew up several hundred frames from the original film, and built the new sets from those...talk about going at it the long way.... - Rob DeMillo MACC Question: If all the world were brothers, would you let one marry your sister...? ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jul 84 7:52:05-PDT (Sun) From: sun!idi!qubix!steven @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Request for cast of DUNE References: I don't know what the actual cast for DUNE is, however I do still have the suggestions someone made about half a year back about what they SHOULD have been. So without further ado....... (Steven Maurer) The Associated Press yesterday released information concerning the near completion of the movie version of Frank Herbert's "Dune". They neglected to announce any casting information, so we at Mellon Institute thought that we would fill this gap with our own suggestions: Baron Harkonnen Jackie Gleason ("One of these days, Leto, a one way trip to 'da doon. To 'da doon, Leto!") Emperor Shaddam Ricardo Montalbon ("Ah, Reverend Mother, are you aware of the old Ixian proverb that says, 'Melange is a dish best served cold'? You know, it is very cold in spice.") Duke Leto Marlon Brando (pretentious, overbearing, has the respect of his men, and you only see him for the first 15 minutes of the film. "Paul, my son, you are going to another planet. No wait, I did this line before...") Reverend Mother Joan Rivers ("Can we tawk? You wanna tawk? Here, stick your hand in this box...") Liet Kynes Ben Haggerty (man of the wild, knows everything about exobiology, but has a very common sense way of looking at things. "Well, see, this sandtrout is, like, kind of like a vector, you see. He, uh, has this, um...") Gurney Hallek Alec Karras ("Gurney just pawn in game of life.") Sandworm Frank Oz Stilgar Harrison Ford ("Shields may be one thing kid, but the sandworms will turn you into lunchmeat in a minute. Give me chrysknife in a tight spot anyday.") Doctor Yueh Hunter S. Thompson (See also his treatise "Fear and Loathing on Arrakis") Count Fenring Marty Feldman ("I was the Sisterhoods closest attempt at the Kwisatz Haderach. They got everything right except my future sight is a bit cockeyed. They call me the Ersatz Haderach.") Paul Muad'Dib Muhhamed Ali ("I float like an ornithopter, and I sting like a hunter-seeker. I'm the prettiest duke-apparent, and the protector of the weaker. And if you mess with my Fremen, you better call on your Guard, C'oz I'll make you a target on my righteous Jihad.") Princess Irulan Loni Anderson (We don't care if she can't act, we just want to see her in an Imperial Bikini). Chani Susan St. James (Ditto). Feyd Rautha Tom Selleck (We have to be fair). Lady Jessica Nancy Walker ("So. You killed him. You proud of yourself? My son, the killer. Oy, what would your father (may he rest in peace) say?") Thufir Hawat Hymie ("My first line approximation is for goodness and niceness.") Beast Rabban Bruce Weitz ("Okay, hairbag. It's into the arena with you!") Jamis David Carradine ("So grasshopper, you know about slipstyle boots. Big deal. Let's see how you hold up in a tahaddi-challenge.") Shadout Mapes Eddie Murphy ("'Dis here's mah' castle, see, an' I don' wan' no dumbass honkeys fum Caladan messin' wif it, you hear?") The theme song will be sung by Chrystal Gayle. ("Don't it make my brown eyes blue?") Disrespectfully submitted by Dan Klein and Robert Zimmermann. Casting for Dune Messiah (a.k.a "Jesus Christ Duneperstar") will commence soon. Bonus question: How many Fremen does it take to change a lightbulb? ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jul 84 17:14:03-PDT (Tue) From: ihnp4!mgnetp!burl!clyde!watmath!jsgray @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Dune Sequels -- It's "Muad'Dib"! (minor flame) I've seen it misspelled too many times! Paul Atreides was "Muad'Dib", not "Maud'Dib"! (And how do *you* pronounce it?) Jan Gray (jsgray@watmath.UUCP) University of Waterloo (519) 885-1211 x3870 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 19-Jul SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #144 *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Jul 84 1204-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #144 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 19 Jul 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 144 Today's Topics: Books - The Adolescence of P1 & The Princess Bride & An Intriguing Contest & Upcoming Books (2 msgs), Films - Bakshi and Burroughs & Bladerunner (2 msgs) & Graphics in Films (2 msgs) & The Last Starfighter, Television - Dr. Who & The Outer Limits ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Jul 84 12:42:00-PDT (Thu) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!smu!jay @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Re: The Man who Ruled the World and - (nf) "Adolescence of P1" is by Ryan. Thomas or Paul or something. Nice story. To bad he didn't explain how he derived those "routine analyzer" programs. ------------------------------ Date: Tue 17 Jul 84 16:54:52-PDT From: Doug Bryan Subject: the princess bride does anyone know the author and publisher of the novel "The Princess Bride"?? I am having trouble finding it. marcy-bacups doug ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jul 84 23:31:16-PDT (Sat) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!akgua!mcnc!ncsu!ncrcae!usceast!ted @ From: Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Intriguing contest Analog magazine is starting an interesting contest this month. The "Alternate View" column this issue was a speculation on the existence of other universes (all universes are bubbles in N-space, formed at the instant of the big bang, separated by an ocean of H-space). The author of the piece, John G. Cramer,was talking about the concept with Gene Wolfe, who suggested that if there are other universes, calling ours "the universe" is misleading : it ought to have a name. I now quote from the magazine : So, in order to correct this Name deficiency, I hereby announce the 1984 Analog _Name_The_Universe_Competition_ ! The winner will receive a free one year subscription to this magazine and will, in addition, achieve the true immortality of having chosen the proper name of an important natural object, in this case the Universe in which we live. Send your entries (one per letter please) to me care of Analog, 380 Lexington Avenue, New York, NY 10017. Include your name and address, your suggestion for the Name of the Universe, and a brief statement of why you feel the Name is appropriate. The winning Name and the name of the winner will be announced in a later Alternate View column (probably in early 1985). --John G. Cramer, "The Alternate View", Analog September 1984 How about it folks? Any takers? Then again why name anything that won't come when you call it... Ted Nolan ...decvax!mcnc!ncsu!ncrcae!usceast!ted 6536 Brookside Circle ...akgua!usceast!ted Columbia, SC 29206 ("We pray for one last landing on the globe that gave us birth..") ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jul 84 10:02:38-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!trwrb!trwspp!urban @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: DEL REY HARDCOVERS: Fall 1984 Here are the DEL REY hardcover announcements for Aug-Nov 1984. My goodness, hardbacks are expensive. Mike August: "Bearing An Hourglass -- Book Two of 'Incarnations of Immortality'" by Piers Anthony. "Norton had lost both the child and the woman he loved. So he didn't mind accepting when the position of Time was offered to him. But what started as an enjoyable experience--living backwards, from present to past--became a war with Satan himself" 288 pages $13.95 September: "JOB: A Comedy of Justice" by Robert A. Heinlein. "After a ritual fire walk in Polynesia, vacationer Alex Hergensheimer awakes to find the world changed: he is now Alec Graham, in love with the magnificent Margrethe. Before long, his world changes again--then again and again. Whatever the changes, Alec finds two constants--the Apocalypse is coming, and he must bring Margrethe to a state of grace before the end..." 384 pages $16.95. Special signed and numbered limited edition $75.00. October: "The Bishop's Heir. Volume I of `The Histories of King Kelson'" by Katherine Kurtz. "Kelson had been crowned king after a political and ecclesiastical upheaval. Now a new faction threatened the stability of the young king's realm. Led by ex-archbishop Loris, this force believed the Deryni a party of heresy and witchcraft--and pledged to bring its new leader low..." 352 pages. $14.95 November: "The Atlas of Pern" by Karen Wynn Fonstad, introduction by Anne McCaffrey. "The first-ever volume of `Pernography'! To the faithful followers of Anne McCaffrey and `The Dragonriders of Pern' series, the world of Pern is as real a place as earth. Now they can take an unprecendented tour of that world with a magnificent and completely detailed atlas." 176 pages. $19.95. November: "Lifeburst" by Jack Williamson. "When Halo Station was attacked by aliens, one inhabitant was eager to leave: young Quin Dain wished to find his father and receive the Sunmark, symbol of fitness for life in space. But once on Earth, Quin found himself framed for murder--and on the run from more than one evil adversary..." 288 pages. $12.95 ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jul 84 10:15:00-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!trwrb!trwspp!urban @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Egbert Incident book The Fantasy Association (a mostly-dormant fantasy fan organization) has received the following book announcement from the Houghton Mifflin Company. All grammatical errors are reproduced as they appear in the announcement (printed on red paper), so no flames to me. Re: DUNGEON MASTER: The Disappearance of James Dallas Egbert,III Publication Date: October 23, 1984. When James Dallas Egbert,III disappeared from Michigan State University in 1979, it was no ordinary college-boy drop out. Egbert was a computer genius at sixteen, a boy with an I.Q. of 180-plus, and an extravagant imagination. Dallas was a fanatic Dungeons and Dragons player -- before the game was widely known and he and his friends played a live version in a weird labyrinth of tunnels and rooms that ran beneath the university. These secret passages even ran within the walls. After Egbert disappeared there were rumors of suicide, witch cults, drug rings, and homosexuality to try and explain the mystery. When the police search came to a dead end, the Egbert family called in one of the most colorful and well-known private investigators of our era, William C. Dear, of Dallas. Dear's adventures and search for Dallas read like a sensational novel, but every fact and detail is true. Dear crawled into baking hot tunnels, flew over the university campus in a helicopter, and played D&D with a real Dungeon Master; he called into play every intuition he could muster to try to out-psych and out-play the brilliant game-playing mind of Dallas Egbert. In the end, he did. The story of the torturous search, the discovery of the boy, his return to his parents -- and the final tragedy -- is told here for the first time. DUNGEON MASTER will be of particular interest to parents, educators, psychologoists, and other role-playing game players. Those involved in the high-tech field and have experimented with D&D on their own computers will be especially fascinated by this exciting story. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jul 84 12:56:52-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!akgua!gatech!arnold @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: bakshi and burroughs > From: Peter Reiher > > I, for one, would much prefer that Bakshi didn't even know about > Burrough's Mars books, unless, of course, he was willing to put up > several miilion dollars of bond money to guarantee that he *fully* > animated it, rather than taking the shabby shortcuts he's so fond > of. Rotoscoping, tinting old film footage, and skimping on the > backgrounds are not my idea of good animation. Personally, what > with the improvements made with models and puppets, I'd much > prefer to see these books done as live action, since no one will > shell out the money to animate them well. > Peter Reiher The only movie I have seen by Bakshi is the recent "Fire and Ice", which I thought was quite good. When I originally posted the idea of Bakshi doing Burroughs, it was with the idea in mind that he do it the same way as he did "Fire and Ice." Not flaming, just clarifying my original idea... (I understand that his earlier movies weren't as good). I would also like to see the stories animated fully: A single movie per Martian book (although the 2nd and 3rd sort of go together). Some of the things I had in mind were the green Martians, the martian cities, John Carter's strength and ability to jump 50 feet.... Arnold Robbins CSNET: arnold@gatech ARPA: arnold%gatech.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa UUCP: { akgua, allegra, ihnp4 }!gatech!arnold Save the Arithmetic IF! ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jul 84 3:28:18-PDT (Mon) From: ihnp4!zehntel!dual!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian @ From: Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: re: BLADE RUNNER voice-overs >> ...and one movie (Bladerunner) that was good SF but a mediocre >> movie. > Whoa, back off. Bladerunner is one of the best movies ever made > period, IF you ignore the voice-over. The Hollywood movie execs > killed it by turning adding the voice-over and turning it into a > stupid 1940's style detective movie.... > > Ray Chen Whoa, back off. How about us guys that *like* 1940's style detective movies?? I, and some friends, thought that part of what made BLADE RUNNER work was that its *film noire* style. I didn't find any problem, per se, with the voice-over being in the film. The only problem was in Ford's delivery of said voice-over. Besides, it wasn't the "Hollywood movie execs" that put the voice-over into the film [talk about conspiracy paranoia]. The fault, if you view it as such, rests in the hands of the scriptwriters and the director. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP:{decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA:boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jul 84 11:26:55-PDT (Wed) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!bllklly @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Movies in general (and BLADERUNNER) Missed the original message, so I hope I'm not repeating. Whether Blade Runner was a good movie or not, it's a typically bad adaptation of a book, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep. It's as if someone reduced the plot to 3 sentences, then handed it to someone else to expand back into a full length script. Not only did they leave out some of the nice things in the book, but the elements they left in had no relevance to the movie plot. Example: the empathy test that involves showing photos to the suspected android. The whole point in the book was that all the pictures showed death or mistreatment of animals, and with nearly all animals on the verge of extinction, any human would have great empathy for the animals. In the movie, the picture of the nude woman is emphasized, but not because she's lying on a bearskin rug, as in the book. If you didn't read the book, the whole scene doesn't make any sense. Let's see what they manage to do to Dune. Bill Kelly {allegra, ihnp4, seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!bllklly 1210 West Dayton St/U Wisconsin Madison/Mad WI 53706 ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jul 84 11:53:55-PDT (Sun) From: sun!qubix!msc @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: THE LAST STARFIGHTER (COMPUTER GRAPHICS WORLD July 1984) As I said in a recent article in net.movies, as a filmgoer my reaction to all this digital *scene* simulation (not "digital science simulation" -- that's what they do in NASA's Computational Chemistry Group :-) ) is big deal. That will continue to be my reaction until they start doing something that couldn't be done by the traditional techniques. The generated scenes I have seen are considerably lacking in a sense of depth just like all other 2D animation techniques. As a computer professional I have a certain interest in the systems, techniques etc used to produce these images and indeed in and of themselves some of the images are very beautiful but so far they bring nothing new to the filmmakers art. Comments? Flames?? >From the TARDIS of Mark Callow msc@qubix.UUCP, decwrl!qubix!msc@Berkeley.ARPA ...{decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!decwrl!qubix!msc, ...{ittvax,amd70}!qubix!msc "Nothing shocks me. I'm an Engineer." ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jul 84 14:41:22-PDT (Mon) From: sun!idi!qubix!jdb @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: THE LAST STARFIGHTER (COMPUTER GRAPHICS WORLD July 1984) In the cas of TRON, the advantage to computer graphics over hand animation was that you got to see the good parts at (Boston) SIGGRAPH. Had I realized what a dumb movie the rest of it was, I'd have skipped seeing it in a theater later on. Any chance for LSF trailers in Minneapolis next week? Dr Memory ...{decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!decwrl!qubix!jdb ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 84 22:53:31 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: "The Last Starfighter": Dan O'Herlihy The last film Dan O'Herlihy made was "Halloween III: The Season of the Witch". He played the crazed mask-manufacturer who planned to unloose chaotic Druid terror on an unsuspecting populace. He was much better in "Seconds", a science fiction film made in the Sixties. This film almost never receives any attention, which is a pity. It's a serious science fiction film based on the premise that there are a bunch of folks out there who can, for a price, totally alter your appearance. Not just a little plastic surgery, but turning middle aged Dan O'Herlihy to young Rock Hudson, voice and all. Of course, they have a few demands which they place on their clients... Anyway, Dan O'Herlihy was excellent in this film as a middle aged man looking for a way out of a life he hated. O'Herlihy doesn't do much film work; I'm given to understand that he's more active on the stage. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jul 1984 10:20:59 EDT ( MONDAY ) From: Stephen R. Balzac Subject: Zelazny etc On TARDIS isomorphism: remember that Time Lords are telepathic. The Doctor may have been able to deceive Sutek about his thoughts even if Sutek did manage to control him. For that matter, maybe Sutek's control wasn't nearly as complete as he thought. The Doctor could have been fooling him. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jul 84 16:22:19-PDT (Mon) From: decvax!vortex!lauren @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: OL episode? Yes, OL is in syndication all over the place. It isn't currently running in L.A. except occasionally in the dead of night as a filler, but it cycles back to a regular schedule every couple of years. In some areas, OL has even run without commercials on the local PBS affiliates. Sometime soon I'll repost my "Outer Limits Episode Guide" which gives a complete rundown on the entire program. --Lauren-- ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 20-Jul SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #145 *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Jul 84 1524-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #145 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 20 Jul 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 145 Today's Topics: Books - Barker & Herbert & Cthulhu & The Adolescence of P1, Films - The Last Starfighter (5 msgs) & Saul Bass & Legend, Videos - Ghostbusters (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Man of Gold Date: Fri, 20 Jul 84 14:01:25 EDT From: Charles Martin On the whole, I agree with the review of M.A.R. Barker's first novel of Tekumel. The Young Hero IS vapid, but that doesn't interfere with the story and setting. I find it difficult to be unbiased about a book like this since I'm already interested in the world of Tekumel-- I have the impression that almost any passable novel set in this mythos would find favor with me. To make a comparison to another recent work, I enjoyed "Man of Gold" much more than I have the first four books of "The Belgariad" (by David Eddings). This series sports an equally vapid Young Hero, and the series as a whole is slow to develop, with entirely telegraphed plot turns and a general feeling of straining for effect. I think Eddings is really trying to make his world as believable as Middle- Earth; sadly, only the effort shows. There's a problem with writing a novel based on a fantasy role-playing game, of course, and this is that the novel may come to resemble a transcript of a particular game. (I know that Barker was developing Tekumel long before FRP emerged, but the problem still exists.) Plot devices and storylines may be lifted from gaming (e.g., dungeon crawling) rather than developed along the original and interesting paths allowed through the medium of a novel. It has also been pointed out to me that a novel presents the opportunity to show real character development (e.g., greater wisdom and maturity), rather than the acquisition of the trappings of power which takes the place of development in gaming. This problem is not limited to novels based on FRP, of course; most "Sword & Sorcery" fantasy falls down on this criterion. Barker's "Man of Gold" escaped this trap for the first two-thirds of the book. There are plenty of interesting supporting characters, each with drives and motivations of his/her own, and complex plots revolving around the strictures of the alien cultures of Tekumel. Unfortunately, the resolution of this web of intrigue relies upon more conventional "Sword & Sorcery" plot units. Even so, Barker handles these in a creditable fashion. There are some twists in the final accounting which may be interesting or confusing depending on the degree to which the reader is able to immerse himself in the world. Unfortunately, the book lacks a real sense of character development (beyond the "S&S" trappings) for the Young Hero. Still, this is at least par for the course for fantasy, and the book is a good read. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jul 84 6:29:33-PDT (Tue) From: ihnp4!houxm!mhuxl!ulysses!burl!clyde!watmath!utzoo!utcsrgv!perel From: gut @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Dune Sequels >I'm getting weary of hearing people call the Dune sequels >"garbage". I think that we may be in for a long fight about the value of Herbert's writing. I have TRIED to read anything Herbert wrote other than DUNE. My only recourse is to say that he is the worst writer that I have attempted to read. And that includes a lot of garbage. His characters are fractal-dimensional, his plots are trivial and meaningless, and his stories are loaded with pseudo-meaningful concepts. Anyone can talk about the beginnings and ends of the world, or hunger, or the evils of neverending technocracy, or god, or other important issues. Few can truly deal with them. Herbert is not one of the few. > .....Herbert creates a universe with fewer strokes than > most authors use to create a world. ..... As far as I am concerned, the above is the most damning thing I could say about Herbert except I would phrase it: "Herbert spends only a few strokes creating a universe when most authors lavish great care to create a world or an even smaller locale." Stephen Perelgut Computer Systems Research Institute University of Toronto Usenet: {linus, ihnp4, allegra, decvax, floyd}!utcsrgv!perelgut CSNET: perelgut@Toronto ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jul 84 13:47:45 EDT (Friday) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #143 From: Todd Chronis A Cthulhu Mythos related novel is The Philosopher's Stone by Colin Wilson. The mood, imagery and plot are in the tradition of ol' H.P., and the author is a fine writter. The author has other fine works, one of which, The God of the Labyrinth can also be considered a fantasy. His only science fiction work, The Space Vampires is best left unread. ~ Todd ------------------------------ From: Joe Buck Date: Fri, 20 Jul 84 14:08:13 EDT Subject: routine analyzer in "Adolescence of P1" ...is nothing but a disassembler. By fast talking, Ryan is essentially saying that disassembling code is tantamount to understanding it. There are a number of other serious flaws in his explanation of P1 as well, though I still enjoyed it. A much better book on the same topic is Hogan's "The Two Faces of Tomorrow". -Joe ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 84 08:10 PDT From: Hank Shiffman Subject: The Last Starfighter Personally, I found TLS to be more than a little bit disappointing. As with the first time I saw Star Trek I, I walked in expecting to like the film and spent the next couple of hours trying my damnedest to do so. It was a losing battle. The parallels to Star Wars are obvious, at least to me. Young boy in insignificant backwater town (world) desperately wants to get away and do something significant. He encounters wise old character (Robert Preston) who tries to talk him into getting involved in saving the universe from an ultimate evil which hangs around in a super warship. At first he balks, but changes his mind when his family and friends are threatened (yeah, I know they were killed in Star Wars; so it's not a PERFECT clone). Wise friend is killed by representative of ultimate evil. Then he goes out and saves the free world from a fate worse than death. All to some music which could have come out of John Williams after a particularly sloppy lobotomy. Some complaints: everybody is just so cute you want to scream. No personality anywhere; nothing but white bread as far as the eye could see. No real, believable threats anywhere. It all had to be done using surprise, with creatures jumping from behind buildings. (Want to see a good, evil scene? Remember the scene in Star Wars where Vader prepares to interrogate the Princess with that nasty little machine floating into the cell behind him? Crash of cell door and soldiers boots crunching by.) The final space battle was pretty sad, especially the Ultimate Weapon. Bringing Robert Preston back at the end was a cheap shot, especially considering the fact that his death was the real motivation for our hero's deciding to get involved. As a friend of mine pointed out upon leaving the theatre, it looked more like a television pilot than a feature film. Hank Shiffman Symbolics, Inc. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 84 14:41 EST From: Steven Gutfreund Cc: rani%leichterj.DEC@purdue-merlin.arpa Subject: The Last Starfighter (tLSF?) Gee, this was a nice film. It was such a simple film, and so superficially naive and plain, I sorta wonder why it worked. So I thought of a corollary contest to the one I thought of earlier, that is: Name important plot or character items that if missing from a story/movie would cause it to sink (stink). ** spoiler ** If tLSF did not: 1. have the centurian character to offset the plainess of the rest of the cast, we would have had a boring simple film. The sort of river-city medicine man huckster was a necessary spice. I have not seen his type in SF for quite a while (unlike the Yoda-type who has become so prevalent that when he was in the SW movie, he was a big yawn). 2. Humor. If this film did not occasionally let us laugh at its naivete we would have gotten sick (those of us over 7 years that is). But things like "you are having a bad dream", or "Gee, it is just like ET", lets the filmakers share an inside joke with them. (indeed I think the hand-shaking scene at the end was a deliberate spoof on Close Encounters, glad to see the director appreciates people who think!) So, to expand my challenge, think up plot and character changes that you think could either rescue novels/movies that almost worked, or if you feel the perverse pleasure, think of interesting ways to destroy classic books or movies. - Steve Gutfreund ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jul 84 11:10:06 EDT From: OSTROFF@RUTGERS.ARPA Subject: The Last Starfighter I know it's ridiculous, but Grig reminded me a lot of Grandpa Munster. The picture(s) of his family was a nice touch. What did he call his kids? Jack (OSTROFF@RUTGERS) "Now you look human!" ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jul 1984 11:52:32-EDT From: carol at mit-cipg at mit-mc Did Maggie's grandma look familiar to you? As I sat there trying to figure out where I'd seen that face before, my husband leaned over and whispered, "The grandmother is an alien from Star Trek". He was right - remember the show called "The Menagerie", where it's mostly a flashback about the former captain of the Enterprise, (currently nothing but a head due to an unfortunate space accident), exploring a planet where the aliens create illusions in people's minds? Granny was the Head Alien! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 84 12:10:05 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: Dan O'Herlihy Whoops. I was mistaken. Dan O'Herlihy was not in "Seconds" (still a good movie, though). He did, however, receive a nomination for an Oscar for best actor for Luis Bunuel's "The Adventures of Robinson Crusoe" (in the title role, of course). Peter Reiher ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 19 Jul 1984 10:43:47-PDT From: dearborn%sage.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Randy Dearborn, Media Graphics, From: MK01/2N25, DTN:264-5090) Subject: Re: "QUEST" AND SAUL BASS > Saul Bass is the fellow responsible for the credit sequences of > the James Bond films, and many other films. Maurice Binder is responsible for the titles of all the Bond films, except for one of the early ones, perhaps Dr. No. I don't remember, off hand. "Never Say Never Again" had titles designed by someone else, too. I think they were done by R. Greenberg (sp?) Assoc. Saul Bass designed titles for many films in the 60's, like "Charade" "It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World." He directed the film "Phase 4." Randy Dearborn Digital Media Services SAGE::DEARBORN Merrimack, NH 03054 603-884-5090 ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 19 Jul 1984 12:37:36-PDT From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Brendan E. Boelke) Subject: LEGEND According to the reports I saw when the fire first occured (in the Boston Globe), the fire will have no effect on LEGEND, but the next Bond movie has been delayed 3-6 months. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jul 84 16:00:44-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!grw @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: re: GHOSTBUSTERS video Terri Garr is the very last person to appear in the video, and a lot of stations cut it before she comes on. But she is there, honest. -Glenn ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jul 84 3:42:04-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian @ From: Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: re: GHOSTBUSTERS video > The following people are in the "Ghostbusters" video: > > ...[various names] > Teri Garr > Dennis Gibbs > I was at home last night when the Ghostbusters video came on. In > order to once and for all settle the burning question, 'just who > are those people in the chorus?', I made me a leetle list. In > Order: > ...[various names] > Terry Garr > > Ken Fishkin After I saw Dennis Gibbs' posting, I said to myself, "Nah, that isn't Terri Garr, is it?" In the time between then and now, when I read Ken Fishkin's posting making the same identification, I have seen the video three times. That is definitely *not* Terri Garr!!! I'm not *positive* who it is, but my original guess, which I stick by now, is that it's Christie Brinkley. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP:{decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA:boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jul 84 10:40:46-PDT (Tue) From: ihnp4!houxm!hopd3!dvw @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: "Ghostbusters" video I think that person who "looks like Eddy Grant" (and he dosen't, by the way) is George Clinton. Diane Wilkerson ..!hopd3!dvw ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jul 84 10:45:46-PDT (Tue) From: ihnp4!houxm!hopd3!dvw @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: re: GHOSTBUSTERS video No, it's Teri Garr. And the last walk-on in the video is the second appearance of Chevy Chase flipping a lighted cigarette in his mouth. Diane Wilkerson ..!hopd3!dvw ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 20-Jul SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #146 *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Jul 84 1551-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #146 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 21 Jul 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 146 Today's Topics: Books - Constructed Worlds (3 msgs) & Dent & Jokes, Films - Bakshi and Burroughs & Is Star Wars SF (3 msgs) & Elfquest & Computer Effects ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 19 Jul 84 12:13:40 PDT (Thursday) From: Jef Poskanzer Subject: Re: constructed worlds vs. designed worlds To: hplabs!sdcrdcf!jonab@UCB-VAX.ARPA Niven's "Integral Trees" world is a slightly different beast from what we have been talking about. The "constructed worlds" were all built by characters in the fictional universe. The "Integral Trees" world is a natural phenomenon in its fictional universe. The two ideas are similar because the author has to go through a similar design process for both. I suggest we call the designed-but-NOT-built category "designed worlds". In this category, the canonical example is Mesklin, from Hal Clement's "Mission of Gravity". Bob Forward has recently put out two excellent examples: "Dragon's Egg" and "The Flight of the Dragonfly". Any other memorable examples? Jef ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jul 84 5:06:17-PDT (Tue) From: ihnp4!houxm!mhuxl!ulysses!burl!clyde!watmath!utzoo!utcsrgv!lgond From: or @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: constructed worlds How about Niven's fact article "Bigger than Worlds"? This appeared in an anthology of his (A Hole in Space? my memory fails me) some time ago and described a variety of constructed worlds. The Ringworld, by the way, was only middle-sized by his reckoning (imagine a Dyson sphere around a galactic core!). On a smaller scale, there are A. Gilliland's Rosinante novels, where most of the action takes place on O'Neill-type space habitats (munditos, in his terminology). Les Gondor, U of Toronto CSRI {cornell,ihnp4,allegra,uw-beaver,decvax!utzoo}!utcsrgv!lgondor "Strange women lying in ponds and distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!" ------------------------------ From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Date: 20 Jul 84 8:27:57 EDT Subject: ConstructedWorlds Moonbow wasn't the first torusworld; that belongs to Larry Niven, from PROTECTOR; it was called Kobold, and it had a miniplanet in the donut hole if I recall. I had trouble with Kobold; it didn't seem large enough to have appreciable gravity. On the other hand, the Protector who built it (crazy Jack Brennan) had sufficient gadgetry to provide the equivalent of artificial gravity, but I don't think Niven stated it that plainly. The best part of Protector is perhaps the snippet of dialog I imprecisely quote here, between the man and the woman when Brennan goes off and leaves them to wander freely on Kobold with the warning, "Don't open any locked doors. Remember Bluebeard." [She]: "What did he mean, 'Remember Bluebeard?'" [Truesdale]: "He meant, 'REALLY don't open any locked doors.'" Not one person in ten understands the allusion; I myself only heard the story at a boy scout campout at age 12. I wonder if the Bluebeard story is in print somewhere... --Jeff Duntemann duntemann.wbst@xerox RF: KB2JN PS: At the risk of sounding wearisome, let me repeat: Constructed as in BUILT. The Smoke Ring from Niven's INTEGRAL TREES was a natural consequence of a peculiar stellar system. Nobody went out and put it together with a wrench. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jul 84 12:39:33-PDT (Tue) From: decvax!mcnc!ecsvax!dgary @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Dent's fiction formula I'm trying to locate a copy of an article by prolific pulp writer Lester Dent. The article was entitled "My Adventure Fiction Master Plot" or some such. I think it was published in The Writer's Handbook in an early-1950s edition. Has anyone seen this? Hopefully, D Gary Grady Duke University Computation Center, Durham, NC 27706 (919) 684-4146 USENET: {decvax,ihnp4,akgua,etc.}!mcnc!ecsvax!dgary ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jul 84 07:05:04 PDT (Friday) From: Chapman.ES@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #142 I was much amused by the Larry Niven Lightbulb jokes. (So was Larry. I showed them to him last night.) When I showed them around the LASFS (Los Angeles Science Fantasy Society) last night someone suggested that a similar set might be generated for Gordon R. Dickson's stories. Gordy will be the Guest of Honor at this year's World Science Fiction Convention in Anaheim, and SFWA is sponsoring a roast during the con. Anybody like to contribute? Cheryl Chapman Guest of Honor Relations LAconII ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 84 00:35:35 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: Bakshi and Barsoom Although "Fire and Ice" was better than many of his other films, I found it far from satisfying in its implied promise to animate Frazetta. The animation quality was noticably better than Saturday morning stuff, but nothing special. When I say "full animation", I don't mean shooting the whole book, or even using animated footage throughout (though that is a prerequisite). I mean using the kind of care for every detail that is evident in the best Disney animated films, such as "Pinocchio" and "Snow White". Nobody does that any more, including Disney (well, maybe the long awaited "The Black Cauldron" will change that). Don Bluth did a close approximation on "The Secret of NIMH". Unless at least that standard of care in animation is used, I don't want to see Bakshi defiling books I have fond memories of. I think that live action special effects have progressed enough to allow a reasonable job to be done on Burrough's Mars stories, at least much better than is economically feasible with animation. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jul 1984 9:09:30 EDT (Friday) From: Vicki Kanrek Subject: Re: Is Star Wars Science Fiction? Cc: vjk@BBNCCF.ARPA Well..,no. Lucas, if I remember the quote correctly, is closest to the 'true definition' of SW (ALL THREE!) when he calls (or whoever calls) it a 'space opera'. As a Wagnerite from way, way back, the story, as it were, of SW IV-VI, is too closely akin to Wagner's Der Ring Des Nibelungen (written in the 19th century, and taken from Norse mythology from TRULY WAY, WAY back!). To top off the similarity, which almost made me pee despite getting wrapped up in the emotion of the moment, when Luke lights Darth Vader's (excuse me, Anakin Skywalker's) funeral pyre, John Williams, in his inimitable plagiaristic style, actually cites part of the so-called "immolation motif" from Gotterdammerung, the last opera of Wagner's tetralogy. Wagner's "Ring" has been set in many different time periods of late, especially in Europe; to the dismay of some die-hard and purist Wagnerites. The latest in terms of most-advertised version is the Chereau directed and Boulez conducted Ring that was broadcast on PBS last year. About 3-5 years prior to that, the Ring was actually set (sets and costumes!) in the 'science fiction/fantasy future', space helmets, suits, and Vader-like respirators and all. So, you see, Lucas is certainly not the first to pick up on the Wotan/Odin myth. (For those of you into the Greek version, we're talking Thor, Zeus, etc. - I'm not up on my Greek mythology at ALL -- too much keeping track of the Norse, Wagner-German and modern day (i.e., Lucas) details.) Considering the ONLY thing that originally got me in to see Star Wars was the fact that Alec Guinness was in the movie, it's amazing that (a) when the movie was over I was SO taken by it that I couldn't figure out which role was Giunness' since the movie was so great and (b) I have now become an absolutely die-hard Star Wars person, vacillating in 'hero'-worship between Ben and Darth. (Ben turned out to be such a jerk - please pardon me. Vader almost turned out to be a simp - I'm getting too cynical in my old age) But, really and truly, I love ALL these films. BUT I don't want to see another one come out - it simply couldn't live up to the first two and the majority of the last one (I HATED the inclusion of the Muppet Show!) Well, this was supposed to be a generally positive statement and I unfortunately got too caught up in some details that used to bother me a lot, and now, although I wanted to state them, I have to temper it with the fact that I don't care about the inconsistencies or grade-school mentalities that sometimes crop up in these movies - I just plain love 'em just the way they are!! Vicki Kanrek ("I've kissed Leonard Nimoy! At 14, my life was complete!!") ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jul 84 09:46:09 PDT (Friday) From: Caro.pa@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: Is Star Wars Truly Science Fiction? Cc: Poskanzer.pa@XEROX.ARPA (SmegmaLord) "In my opinion, \Invasion of the Killer Tomatoes/ can not really be considered \science fiction/ but rather \speculative science fantasy/ or perhaps more accurately \satirical pseudo-scientific political fantasy horror/. This confusion of genres may explain the unwarranted and impertinent criticism that this fine movie has received." Elmer T. Usenetter Chairman, Committee Against Redundant Genre Diatribes Committee Perry ------------------------------ From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Date: 20 Jul 84 13:27:12 EDT Subject: Star Wars is indeed Science Fiction There isn't a blamed thing in the Star Wars saga to remove it from our own (albeit remote) future save Lucas's idiotic "Long, long ago in a galaxy far away..." Nor is there any reason to put it anywhere but in our own remote future; why people insist on the fairy tale prelude escapes me. Consider The Stainless Steel Rat books, which take place in our universe umpty-ump thousand years from now, so that the word "earth" is a synonym for soil and not the name of any given planet. (Until DeGriz gets to ride a time machine back to Old Earth, or Dirt, or whatever the name of the place was...) There's no way to draw lines between science fiction and non-science fiction without valid arguments that the lines ought to be drawn elsewhere. The internal consistency argument is actually a means of drawing a line between good writing and bad writing; both SW and ST fail that test, but whereas I'd grade Star Wars at about 55%, Star Trek gets a zero for not even bothering to try. What I suspect is bothering people about Star Wars is the intention that it be nothing beyond an adventure story. Well, yeah, that bothers me too--BUT, considering that Star Trek is really nothing more than All My Children: 2300AD, I'd say Star Trek is not science fiction either, but (bad) soap opera with pointed ears. Damned little media work passes my own personal litmus test for science fiction, which involves a high level of internal consistency, "not offending the known", and working from a set of reasonable premises toward a reasonable theme. Neither "Cowboys on Mars" (Star Wars) nor "All My Children: 2300AD" passes the test. On the other hand, not many books pass it either. I think it's a thoroughly stupid thing to throw packets after, bottom line. Let's argue about something else. --Jeff Duntemann duntemann.wbst@xerox ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jul 84 09:42:40 PDT (Friday) From: Caro.pa@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: "Elfquest" movie > Nirvana Productions, which at one time was planning an animated > version of Wendy & Richard Pini's "Elfquest", is definitely not > making this film. Indeed. According to the Pini's (via the Elfquest Fanclub Newsletter), Nevana wanted to do (some portion approaching the whole of) the film in live action, which the Pini's found repugnant to say the least. In addition, the Pini's claim that Nirvana was reluctant to revert the rights and only threats of legal action goaded them into doing the right thing. Perry ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jul 84 10:46:20 PDT (Friday) From: Isdale.es@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Computer Efx vs. Std Efx There were many scenes in TLS that could NOT have been done with conventional model techniques. these fall into several classes: 1) Painted or metalic ships. Models have to be shot against blue screen for matting. This restricts the colors that the ships can have. Note that Star Wars used White ships almost exclusively. (Ron Cobb had some difficulty convincing the powers that be that space ships really could be different colors). 2) Complex moves. Some actions are impossible or very difficult to film with models. TLS used some very long pull backs that would have required camera tracks several hundred feet if they were done with models. Also some of the rolls, etc would have been impossible with models needing supports. Computer space is nearly infinite and there are no strings or supports to hide. 3) Lots of Ships. Model shots with lots of ships require lots of matting and this results in a degradation of film quality (plus matte lines, etc.) The armada scene in TLS had many more ships than Revenge /return/ of the Jedi armada. The ships in TLS also had more movements and interactions. These would have been impossible with models. 4) Lack of Mattes. Starfighter used very few OPTICAL mattes. There were many 'mattes' done in the CRAY. Starfields, moons, multiple ships were sometimes done in several passes and the resulting bitmaps were merged within the CRAY. This resulted in much cleaner composites than could be done with opticals. 5) Details. The ships in TLS had much more detail and realistic detail than SW, etc. Ron Cobb (the Art Director) is a NASA artist and took much of the weaponry out of Space and Aviation Week. Also the pilots inside the ships actually move. Try that with models. (then again try to notice it while the ship streaks past.) 6) Laws of Physics: The computer doesn't know about Newton or Einstein. Objects can do nearly anything you want them to. Two objects passing thru each other or one shape evolving into another are two neat efx that Starfighter didn't use but could be done. Drawbacks of DSS: 1) it is too crisp. There was not enough time to add dirt to all the ships or use other techniques to cover the extra sharp images that computers generate. 2) Explosions. TLS explosions look like rejects from Battlestar Galactica. They were real pyrotechnics filmed by Apogee. Digital Prod. Scanned them into the CRAy memory and matted them together. Blah. Simulated explosions are still impossible to do realistically. 3) Motion Blur. Real objects and some model shots will blur on the film. The simulations and many model shots suffer from 'temporal aliasing' ie you see the ship in two places at once. This is a difficult problem but one which is close to being solved (ILM claims to have a method). For some other examples of Digital Productions work see: Pontiac Fiero commercial, AT&T blue bits and sphere closing, Sony Walkman commercial (just won a Cleo), Devo videos She's out of Sync and Peek-a-Boo, CBS wednesday night movie opener, and 2010's Jupiter in motion. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 20-Jul SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #147 *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Jul 84 1612-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #147 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 22 Jul 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 147 Today's Topics: ******SPECIAL STAR TREK ISSUE****** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Jul 84 15:52:47 EDT From: Jaffe@RUTGERS Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!! The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the movie "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock". People who have not yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following messages. Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jul 1984 09:57:49 EDT ( TUESDAY ) From: Stephen R. Balzac Subject: ST III Decommissioning Enterprise isn't all that surprising in light of two points: One, it was in pretty sorry shape after ST II. Hardly worth spending the money to repair it under those conditions. It could easily be cheaper to scrap it. Second, it could never be fitted with transwarp drive. As you may recall from numerous episodes, (Changling, etc), the ship's structure is not capable of handling speeds greater than warp 8 for more than maybe a few minutes. Under the circumstances, it's not all that surprising that they would decide to decommission rather than repair it. My apologies to all of you who dote on the Enterprise and can't stand to see it go. Seeing the Enterprise destroyed by a Klingon scout is also not that startling. Enterprise had not, as you may recall, been fully repaired. At best, Scott had managed to jury rig the systems so that they would function after all the damage Enterprise had suffered in ST II. He simply didn't have time to do any more. As someone pointed out, in the novel, the Genesis material is left on the Genesis planet. I don't remember whether it is beamed aboard Enterprise or whatever-the-heck the other ship was called, but both ships were destroyed, so could have gone with it. Not to have a backup copy seems silly though, so I suspect that it'll reappear sometime. Enough said. I think this topic is beginning to resemble a dead horse. Perhaps we should wait until the next movie and see what happens then? ------------------------------ Date: Tue 17 Jul 84 11:31:24-EDT From: Bernard Gunther Subject: old naval ships In the recent debate about decomissioning the enterprise after only 20 years of service, it is interesting to remember that in 1914, the German high command gave a ship to the Turkish navy. (they used this ship to bring Turkey into the war, but that's another story). Anyway, this ship was used in the shelling of Cyprus in 1971 (yes 71) and unless I'm mistaken, it is still in active service. This would make the ship 70 years old. If a pre-WWI ship is still a ship capable of fighting effectively and being used in active combat, then there is no real reason why a ship of the Enterprise's caliber can't still be effective, even though it is 20 years old. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jul 1984 12:51:20 EDT ( TUESDAY ) From: Stephen R. Balzac Subject: ST III From a friend of mine not on the network: If you could, how about piping this into the net. Regarding comments about Kirk's fate as will be determined by Starfleet (no doubt). First of all, Kirk will not be executed. As we know from the episode, "The Menagerie," there is just one death penalty left on Starfleet's books: General Order Number Seven--visitation of Talos IV. So Kirk will not be executed. But, what then? The problem is, the producers of Trek have put viewers on an emotional roller coaster which--in all fairness and in all likelihood--will stop with the upcoming movie(s). I mean, first Spock is cold and heartless (apparently) in STTMP and Kirk can not command as he used to. Then Kirk meets his son and Spock dies in STII. But wait. Miracle of miracles, Spock has been (in some sense, and no comments, please, because I am generalizing terribly) brought back to life. Come on. Enough already. I mean, I haven't even mentioned David's seemingly unnecessary death, or Enterprise's demise. Let's stabilize, if only just for one movie. But if we stabilize events too quickly in STIV, the movie will probably be awful. Witness: "Oh hi, Jim. How's it going? By the way, nice job out at Genesis. 'Preciate it. Oh, one more thing. Would you like another ship? Yes? Sure, no problem, here are the keys." Of course, under (almost) no circumstances will it be that bad, but it could be close. So, will Kirk hang (figuratively) or not? If he does, Trek suffers and we are back on the roller coaster. If not, Trek might suffer because of complete and utter lack of realism. Question for the person on the net with the naval knowledge: If Kirk were to, say, go on an incredibly dangerous and important mission (Starfleet having absolutely no recourse but to use Kirk), and he succeeded, could there realistically be some lesser sentence levied against Kirk? Say a year or two in prison, or some such punishment? With any luck at all, by the way, Excelsior will blow up on its first trial run. (My apologies to those of you who found the ship beautiful and exciting.) I loved Enterprise and was sorry to see it go. But I have accepted her demise now, and I think it was good because it was drastic and unexpected, and that made for good drama. But Excelsior represents the cause of NCC 1701's demise, in my imagination--gotta blame it on something, don't you? Also, it was obvious to me that Enterprise was decommissioned so as not to add to Kirk's charges. I mean, at least he destroyed a ship which was to be decommissioned, not one that was going out again. Of course, I also found it hard to swallow that Starfleet would decommission Enterprise. It just didn't seem to make sense, But it has been suggested that Fleet has been attempting to break up the Enterprise crew; this could be their way of doing just that. And maybe, just maybe, Enterprise would have ended up being REcommissioned instead. Get Kirk out of the way, and then make a spontaneous (planned) decision to put Enterprise back in space. Star Trek IV already has a great responsibilty: it must answer the many questions raised in ST III. If ST IV fails--and it might--then ST III might be classified a waste of time and money, and the cause of Trek's eventual decommissioning. And knowing Paramount, and some others involved in production, ST IV has a very good chance of failing, and failing badly. Let's hope it all works out. ST can die, or it can live. There's no telling what its fate will be. I am not optimistic, but I am hopeful. May the wind be at our backs, and at the backs of the producers, writers, et. al. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jul 84 14:32:16 EDT From: Ed Subject: Re: James Tiberius Kirk Yes, Kirk's middle name WAS revealed, but not in the series. It was given in one of the ST cartoons (which one exactly, I can't remember). Looking for better things to do with Saturday mornings, -Ed. ------------------------------ Date: Wed 18 Jul 84 04:09:24-CDT From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA Subject: TREK & courts martial ^^^^^^^^ Military disobedience, France, and Star Trek ^^^^^^^^ Don't know if it's true or not, but I recall reading somewhere, sometime, that in French military practice a soldier who disobeys an order (in battle?) is indeed executed-- unless his action leads to a successful outcome to the engagement, in which case he is not only pardoned, but awarded a special medal. Assuming this is true, and that Starfleet draws upon a multi-national tradition, and that the TREK producers are familiar with the French practice-- all of which assumptions are shaky-- 'ol James T. could come out smelling like roses yet again. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jul 84 15:49 EDT From: Denber.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Subject: More constructed worlds ST III: The Search for Sequels: The clunkata-clunkata sound effects for the Trans-Warp drive might have been dumb, but that scene got a big laugh from the moderately large weeknight audience we were in. "Who are you?" "The new Number Two" - Michel Arpa: Denber.WBST@Xerox UUCP: RF: KB2BQ ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jul 1984 01:20:25-EDT From: Walter.Smith at CMU-CS-SPICE Subject: Ship numbering Enterprise: NCC-1701 Excelsior: NX-2000 NCC stands for Naval Construction Contract (according to Franz Joseph Designs, anyway). What, if anything, does NX stand for? Walter Smith ARPANet: wrs@cmu-cs-spice ------------------------------ Date: 18-Jul-84 13:19:37-EDT From: decvax!ncoast!bsafw@Berkeley (Brandon Allbery,524-1416) Subject: Enterprise age and decommissioning Someone pointed out earlier that the Enterprise was being used as a cadet trainee ship at the beginning of STII, and most ships relegated to that status are on their last legs (er, thrusters). The novelization for STII states that 15 years have passed since the events in STTMP. This makes Enterprise 22 1/2 years old, at least. (More, since we know Christopher Pike captained it for a time, and perhaps (if you hold with the animated series) Robert April did as well. As I remember the Counter-Clock Incident (in book form), Captain April commanded for something like 2 1/2 years. (That could be wrong -- memory serves, but not often.) Anyone know how long Pike commanded? If we use 2 1/2 years for both, that makes Enterprise 27 1/2 years old. Young, yes, but... (1) Enterprise was one of the first Constitution Class vessels made. We saw maybe 8 in the entire series. What if they made 8 of them and then dropped the class because of problems (forseeable ones, maybe? see below). (2) The shape of Excelsior, that everyone's upset at: Maybe it's a NECESSARY shape for transwarp. Given that Enterprise has shown the need for fast engines, making her a transwarp vessel would be a high priority. BUT WHAT IF SHE'S THE WRONG SHAPE FOR SOME REASON? (3) Someone complained about the Bird of Prey being able to knock out Enterprise so easily. Remember that (1) Khan gave her quite a beating, and (2) Starfleet wasn't fixing her. Scotty couldn't, either, because (1) he'd need base equipment that he wouldn't be allowed to use, and (2) even if he could do without, he couldn't be on Excelsior and Enterprise at the same time. That automation stuff was probably designed for use during the refitting (so she wouldn't have to be fully crewed just to move her around the dock). (4) Possibly already way out of date. I saw a prediction that if we didn't sit back on our haunches, we might have FTL by the turn of the century. (I don't think we'll make it. Zefrem Cochrane, where are you?) If we were to make it, 1980s space probes and exploratory vessels, YOUNGER THAN ENTERPRISE by the dating I gave, would be out of date. Anyone else want to beat this dead horse? Brandon Allbery: decvax!cwruecmp{!atvax}!bsafw 6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, OH 44131 Witness, n. To watch and learn, joyously. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jul 1984 14:29 PDT (Thu) From: Tony Li To: Jacob.Butcher@CMU-CS-C.ARPA Subject: james TIBERIAS kirk No, Kirk's middle name is revealed in "The Making of Star Trek". My favority piece of ST trivia is the name of Kirk's wife. LL+P, Tony ;-) ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jul 84 10:41:27-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!intelca!cem @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: James Tiberius Kirk What about the episode where Kirk is court martialed for ejecting the guy in the pod on yellow alert, I think you know the episode I am relating to, when Kirk takes the stand and puts his palm on the computer lie detector, doesn't it read out his entire record starting with his FULL name ? Chuck - - - D I S C L A I M E R - - - {ihnp4,fortune}!Dual\ All opinions expressed herein are my {proper,idi}-> !intelca!cem own and not those of my employer, my ucbvax,hao}!hplabs/ friends, or my avacado plant. :-} ARPAnet : "hplabs!intelca!cem"@Berkeley ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 23-Jul SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #148 *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Jul 84 1212-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #148 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 23 Jul 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 148 Today's Topics: Books - Brunner & Herbert (2 msgs) & Niven & Varley & Zelazny & Story Request & Bluebeard & Jokes (2 msgs), Comics - Dent, Films - 2010 & The Last Starfighter & Dune, Videos - Ghostbusters (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon 23 Jul 84 01:41:04-PDT From: William "Chops" Westfield Subject: Book Review: "Crucible of Time", by John Brunner. Nano-review: Boooorrrrriiinnnnggg review: This is John Brunner's attempt to come up with a consistent, interesting, alien civilization, ala Forward's Chella, or Niven/Pournelle's moties. He succeeds in being consistent, I guess. There are two main problems with this book, the first (as someone else on this list has already pointed out) is that the characters die just as they become interesting (and on to the next generation). The second, more serious problem is that the characters don't succeed in being alien. I mean, here we have a bunch of creatures without skeletons and whose civilization is based on bio-technology instead of engineering. Pretty alien, huh? Nope. You have to keep reminding yourself that these are funny aliens and not a lost earth colony or whatever. They act exactly human, with the one exception that no one ever doubts the possibility of leaving the planet (the first earthlings to suggest such ideas were certainly scoffed at!), and this is never explained. I find this distressing, since Brunner is usually so good as creating alien cultures (even when they are human). Sigh. He has some fun with cliches though... BillW ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jul 84 13:10 PDT From: Woody.pasa@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Paul-Muad'dib and saying his name I think Muad'dib is pronounced "mooAHd(e)dib". The mark between "Muad" and "Dib" is a schwa-E like sound. Of course, I am probably wrong. Anyone out there know Arabic? William Woody "Someday I'll figure out what is going on around here. The shock'll kill me." ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jul 84 1:23:30-PDT (Sun) From: ihnp4!ihuxt!martillo @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Paul-Muad'dib and saying his name Since the name is not written in Arabic, I can only guess at the spelling. Since he is some sort of a prophet, I assume mim damma waw hamza fatha dal tashdid kasra ba' is meant. This word means educator and in certain parts of North Africa a mu'addib is a teacher in a Koran school. Pronounce it m followed by long u sound (u in German Blume) followed by a glottal stop (tt as in Boston pronunciation of bottle) followed by a as in Frenchman followed by dd (as in they paid Dan, not like they pay Dan) follwed by i as in did followed by a b souned (swallowed a little more than in English -- hard to describe but English b is acceptable). Who wouldn't break for whales? Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo ------------------------------ Date: Mon 23 Jul 84 01:56:39-PDT From: William "Chops" Westfield Subject: Book review: "The Integral Trees" by Larry Niven. Micro-review: A good read, if a trifle shallow. Wait for the paperback. Review: My library had this in the new books section, so I picked it up. This story takes place in a gas torus around a neutron star. I'm not up on my physics in this area, but apparently such a thing can exist, and the gas densities are high enough at points to support life. So Mr Niven has this big gas ring where a ramship has deposited (against its will) a bunch of colonists a couple of hundred years ago. Said colonists have evolved/decivilized and are finding the "smoke ring" a fine place to live, more or less. An Integral tree is a LONG tree that floats in the ring, and has gravity-like forces at either end due to tides, making it a desirable place for people to live. The plot involves a group of people on a tree that has drifted too far into thinner air, and is consequently dying. They leave, and travel around (by various surprises that I won't give away), giving Larry a chance to show off his neat new world. Which is the weakness of the book - it mostly serves as a vehicle to show off the "world". I would have preferred a technical problem with technical study and solutions (ala Ringworld, Protector, etc), rather than the existent sort of "escape to freedom by fighting tooth and nail" plot. Oh well, it is a neat world, and the plot is rather exciting, making the whole thing basically a good read... "The Integral Trees" is set in the same world as "A world out of Time" (i think), and there could be a sequel... (hopefully set in a more technically developed future). BillW ------------------------------ Date: Mon 23 Jul 84 02:10:16-PDT From: William "Chops" Westfield Subject: Book Review: "Demon" by John Varley. Micro-review: Great! Best of the Titan series. A good bet for the Hugo/etc. Review: This book describes such trivia as the final showdown between Gaea and Sciroco Jones, the end of the world, and so on. Gaea is now quite obviously insane, even by human standards. There aren't as many new ideas in "demon" as in the previous two books, but there is more to the plot than just travelog, and all of the good guys are in top shape (I reread the whole series. "Wizard" is really depressing, when you think about it). There is one major (human) new character (Conal), who I felt was handled well. I was bothered by some of the "magic" used, since it seemed to be rather non-scientific, and since Gaea had never shown such abilities before. Perhaps we can discuss this after more people have read the book, and it won't be so much of spoiler. The book is full of the little ingenuities that Varley is so good at. Lots of SF references (from OZ to Star Wars) too. In summary: Fun, exciting, and conclusive (although there could be more sequels). Probably worth the 6.95 in trade paperback (no silly pictures, at least) (probably a wise decision on the part of the publishers - more people will buy the trade than a hard cover -> greater profits). BillW ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jul 84 10:49:36-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!elsie!imsvax!rcc @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Zelazny etc >Zelazny's book based on the Hindu Pantheon is Lord of Light. >Speaking of Zelazny, has anyone heard anything more about his new >Amber novels? Add my request. At the beginning of "Nine Princes in Amber", Corwin states that he is telling his story to someone (presumably Merlin) so maybe it will pass on after he (Corwin) dies in the Courts of Chaos. I want to know WHAT HAPPENED TO CORWIN ? Also, if you haven't read Lord of Light, I recommend it highly. The preceding message was brought to you by -- Ray Chen UUCP: {umcp-cs!eneevax || elsie}!imsvax!rcc ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 22 Jul 1984 11:45-EDT From: munck@Mitre-Bedford Subject: Robotic Can Opener I have fond but very vague memories of a series of stories from a couple of decades ago, about an inventor who did his best work while drunk and the robot he invented while in said state, whose primary purpose was to be a beer-can opener. The inventor's name may have been Gallagher and the robot's Joe; I do remember that beer cans had just been replaced by "plasti-bulbs," rendering the robot obsolete as well as silly. Can anyone give me a pointer to these stories? Thanks. -- Bob Munck (MUNCK@MITRE-BEDFORD.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jul 84 22:55:16-PDT (Sat) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!lanl-a!unm-cvax!janney @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Remember Bluebeard _The Bloody Chamber and Other Stories_, by Angela Carter, contains a rather eccentric retelling of the Bluebeard story. Also "Puss in Boots" and some others. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jul 84 6:43:56-PDT (Wed) From: decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-dosadi!binder @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Niven/Pournelle jokes - even more obscure *** The canonical collection of Motie light bulb jokes *** Q: How many Watchmakers does it take to change a light bulb? A: Not more than one. PLEASE!!! Q: How many Masters does it take to change a light bulb? A: None. That's a Brown problem. Q: How many Mediators does it take to change a light bulb? A: One. After she becomes its fyunch(click) she'll take its place. Q: How many Warriors does it take to change a light bulb? A: None. A Warrior can scare anybody she wants into changing it for her. Q: How many Meats does it take to change a light bulb? A: With no arms? Have you gone Crazy Eddie? Q: How many Engineers does it take to change a light bulb? A: Light bulb? You say this thing here used to be a light bulb? - compiled by Dick Binder and Bob Hapgood Cheers, Dick Binder (The Stainless Steel Rat) UUCP: { decvax, allegra, ucbvax... } !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-dosadi!binder ARPA: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Sat 21 Jul 84 23:43:05-CDT From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA Subject: Gordon Dickson & lightbulbs ^^^ How many Friendlies does it take to screw in a lightbulb? ^^ 4: one to determine it is not a "vanity" (comfort or luxury), one to give the invocation, one to do it, and one to give the prayer of thanksgiving. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jul 84 09:45:46 EDT From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst Subject: Dent's master formula While I can't point you to the article you mentioned, the formula itself can be found in James Steranko's _History of the Comics, Volume 1_, in the chapter "The Bloody Pulps". While we're on the subject, can anyone point me to articles, etc., on Dent's most famous creation, Doc Savage? I know of Farmer's _Apocalyptic Life_, the Marvel Comics magazines, and an article that appeared in TIME, circa 1971. Anything else? Chris Jarocha-Ernst (JAROCHA-ERNST@RU-BLUE.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jul 84 21:34:56-PDT (Fri) From: decvax!cca!ima!ism70!steven @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: 2010: Odyssey Two Information from Lotusland You'll probably get lots and lots of responses, but just in case you don't: 2010 Starring Roy Scheider, John Lithgow, Helen Mirren and Bob Balaban. Also starring Keir Dullea (Dave), Douglas Rain (HAL), two Russian actors from Moscow on the Hudson and one Russian actress. Tentative release date by MGM/UA: December 7, 1984 Directed by Peter Hyams. Screenplay by Peter Hyams. From the novel by Arthur C. Clarke. Produced by Peter Hyams. Photographed by Peter Hyams. Quite an auteur, eh? Supposedly Hyams blackmailed the A.S.C. by threatening to take the production out of Culver City and over to England for studio work if they didn't let him be Director of Photography. Kubrick gave his approval for a sequel to Hyams, but never visited the set. Steven Spielberg did, however, and wasn't allowed to see the model of the Discovery ship. Prince Andrew also visited the 2010 set on his recent visit to Los Angeles, but Hyams wouldn't even let him enter the command bridge set. Hyams insisted on recreating the exact costumes as well, using a computer to embroider the command patches to match the exact colors of the originals. Cost him 20 grand to get the patches right. Source of information: Onscreen performer on 2010 whom I talked to. ------------------------------ From: Steve Platt Subject: The Last Starfighter Date: Sat, 21 Jul 84 22:41 EDT I liked it. And I'll say that if you didn't, you probably also kick puppies and hate baseball. How to hate tLS: expect depth. Expect excellence in direction, character development, plot line, etc. How to like tLS: go with a friend. When Centurion says "we've got trouble", fill in the blank, "right here in River City". When Grig says "you have that something special", say "use the force, Luke". It really is a very silly movie. We laughed through the entire thing. Enjoy the light show. Some of the effects are pretty good, and fairly well integrated. Much better than Tron by far. Be appreciative of the "kill-a-Cray" approach they took to the movie. Stay through the credits, and cheer when the Digital Productions people are mentioned. People will look at you like you are weird. Star Wars (A New Hope) had it. TESB and RotJ lost it. Raiders of the Lost Arc had it, but IJ:ToD lost it. Star Trek never had it, neither I nor II nor III. tLS has it. Magic. Imagine: a movie which is too shallow and short for people to jump and notice any inconsistencies! What will we talk about? -steve ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 22 Jul 1984 11:59:29-PDT From: kovner%regina.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Re: DUNE casting Back a few years, rumor had it that Orson Welles would be in DUNE. It did not mention his part, but I would guess he would play Baron "I will sell no spice before its time" Harkonnen. (To show the inaccuracy of the source, it said that Pink Floyd would be doing the music. [The Dark Side Of Arrakis? with green pyramids?]) Steve Kovner UUCP: { decvax, allegra, ucbvax }!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-regina!kovner ARPA: kovner%regina.DEC@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Jul 84 16:46:55 EDT From: Ron Natalie Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #146 Now you've got me angry. It's not Invasion of the Killer Tomatoes it's the Attack of the Killer Tomatoes. It's not science fiction it's Horror. No more SF than Dracula or Jaws. Also, where does Indiana Jones get off being discussed on this list either? -Ron ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jul 84 0:49:20-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian @ From: Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: re: GHOSTBUSTERS video Well, I got a few mail messages with respect to my posting about Teri Garr not being in the "Ghostbusters" video, most of them saying, when all is said and done, that I was full of what makes the grass grow. So, Wednesday morning, I set the Betamax to tape five hours worth of MTV whilst I slept the sleep of the con- fident. Hah! I'll show those bastards! I arose in the late afternoon, and having caught my fix of YOU CAN'T DO THAT ON TELEVISION (on Nickelodeon), I zipped through approximately three and a half hours of the tape, until I hit "Ghostbusters". When I got to the controversial sequence, I watched it about three times, the whole while saying, "Naaahhhh. Doesn't look like Teri Garr to me." Then, to be sure, I went through it again, frame by frame. Jaw drops to the floor (Thud!). "Nahhh [a little less confidently], can't be! But it is! It *is* Teri Garr!" And so, here I sit, with egg on my face. I can only say, and truthfully, too, that seen at normal speed, it *still* doesn't look like her! You guys have sharper eyes than I. jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jul 84 10:04:56-PDT (Thu) From: decvax!linus!philabs!rdin!perl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: GHOSTBUSTERS video You're all wrong! The girl in the video is Teri Garr. By the way, I missed the original list. Could someone send it to me or repost it? Thanks. Robert Perlberg Resource Dynamics Inc. New York philabs!rdin!perl ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 24-Jul SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #149 *** EOOH *** Date: 24 Jul 84 1300-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #149 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 24 Jul 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 149 Today's Topics: Books - Vance & Varley & Zelazny & Constructed Worlds (6 msgs), Films - The Last Starfighter & Dune (2 msgs) & 2010 & Star Wars ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 23 Jul 84 21:15:57 mdt From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley) Subject: A review of CUGEL'S SAGA, by Jack Vance CUGEL'S SAGA. Jack Vance. Timescape, c1983 (hardcover). Non-spoiler review: Hilarious. Recommended. Micro-spoiler review: Vance has brought back his old character Cugel the Clever from his book THE EYES OF THE OVERWORLD, which was in turn set in the universe of his first book THE DYING EARTH. I think THE EYES OF THE OVERWORLD is the best book of Vance's that I have read, and I understand that it is Vance's favorite among his own books. Cugel is a thief by profession, but not an exceptionally good thief; and as a result he is constantly getting in trouble. CUGEL'S SAGA follows the adventures of Cugel as he crosses his decaying planet and tangles with wizards and rogues and demons and monsters, barely escaping with his skin in most cases and occasionally finding himself the centerpiece of a free-for-all farce. If you like Fritz Leiber's SWORDS books, then you'll thoroughly enjoy this one. Mini-spoiler review: This book is not really a novel -- like THE EYES OF THE OVERWORLD, it is a sequence of episodes bracketed by a containing story involving Iucounu, the Laughing Magician, who displaces Cugel from his homeland of Almery to a dreary beach halfway around the world, from which Cugel must return in order to wreak his revenge. On his way, Cugel makes his usual dishonest living but also as usual gets into each situation way over his head as a result of his impossible arrogance and ends up being cheated of the goods which he worked so hard to cheat others of. Some of the stories have a feel of being written at different times; in particular the climactic piece of the bracketing story about the overworld creature Sadlark and his missing 'Pectoral Sky-Break Spatterlight' has a hasty feel to it, as though it was written long after the rest of the book. The book is mildly funny up to the point where Cugel is forced to ground his boat and escape to land across some noisome mud-flats ('The mud was deep, viscous and smelled most unpleasantly. A heavy ribbed stalk terminating in a globular eye reared up from the mud to peer at him...'), after which the story gets sillier and sillier until I simply couldn't stop laughing. Reading this book reminds one of how much Gene Wolfe borrowed from Vance in creating THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN; if you liked the latter, you can think of CUGEL'S SAGA as a comedy set in the same universe. The books share the same baroque style of language, the same penchant for using difficult or obsolete vocabulary, and the same motifs (the fading sun, the revival of magic, the exotic monsters, the colorful cultures and characters). CUGEL'S SAGA, however, is nowhere nearly as complex as NEW SUN, although it doesn't have to be, since it has a much simpler lesson to teach. To give you a taste of the book, here is a short excerpt. Preceding this little incident, Cugel has spent the night in a hovel, whose owner carefully instructed him about how to cross the Plain of Standing Stones: 'After four miles the road angled up to a gray plain studded at intervals with twelve-foot pillars of gray stone. Cugel found a large pebble, and placing his right hand on his buttock made a profound salute to the object. He scratched upon it a sign somewhat similar to that drawn for him by Erwig and intoned: "I commend this pebble to the attention of Wiulio! I request that it protect me across this dismal plain!" 'He scrutinized the landscape, but aside from the sarsens and the long black shadows laid by the red morning sun, he discovered nothing worthy of attention, and thankfully set off along the track. 'He had traveled no more than a hundred yards when he felt a presence and whirling about discovered an asm of eight fangs almost on his heels. Cugel held high the pebble and cried out: "Away with you! I carry a sacred object and I do not care to be molested!" 'The asm spoke in a soft blurred voice: "Wrong! You carry an ordinary pebble. I watched and you scamped the rite. Flee if you wish! I need the exercise." 'The asm advanced. Cugel threw the stone with all his force. It struck the black forehead between the bristling antennae, and the asm fell flat; before it could rise Cugel had severed its head. 'He started to proceed, then turned back and took up the stone. "Who knows who guided the throw so accurately? Wiulio deserves the benefit of the doubt."' With the demise of Timescape Books, it may be a while before CUGEL'S SAGA gets a paperback edition... What a pity. In the meantime I hope Vance writes more books like these! Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Jul 84 21:53:27 PDT From: kalash%ucbingres@Berkeley (Joe Kalash) Subject: Demon... Re: > Probably worth the 6.95 in trade paperback (no silly pictures, at > least) (probably a wise decision on the part of the publishers - > more people will buy the trade than a hard cover -> greater > profits). I'm not sure what you mean, there IS a hardback of DEMON (I have one, which Varley inscribe "The last spleen quivering adventure", which I leave to you trivia experts to translate). Also, publishers DO make more money on hardcovers, as there is a greater markup, and there are a LOT of libraries... Joe Kalash kalash@berkely ucbvax!kalash ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jul 1984 09:57:02 EDT ( TUESDAY ) From: Stephen R. Balzac Subject: Chronicles of Amber I wouldn't get to concerned about Corwin. Assuming Zelazny is consistent, Corwin is now unkillable. Remember folks, he created a pattern, therefore he is the pattern. While it stands, he can't be hurt, and while he stands, it can't be hurt (well, sort of. There are ways around it). ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jul 84 14:16:12-PDT (Wed) From: ihnp4!houxm!mhuxl!ulysses!burl!clyde!watmath!utzoo!kcarroll @ From: Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Constructed as in BUILT, guys... Then of course, there's always Zelazny's series of universes, as expounded in the Nine Princes in Amber series. As I recall, these universes were constructed, although I won't say by whom, as that'd be a SPOILER. Kieran A. Carroll ...decvax!utzoo!kcarroll ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jul 84 9:34:17-PDT (Wed) From: ihnp4!houxm!mhuxl!ulysses!burl!clyde!watmath!utzoo!utcsrgv!garfi From: eld!dave @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: constructed worlds | From: VLSI%DEC-MARLBORO@sri-unix.UUCP | Newgroups: net.sf-lovers | Subject: constructed worlds | | From: John Redford | | Here are all the constructed worlds that I can think of, including | the ones that have been mentioned already: (somewhat cut) | "Ringworld" and "The Ringworld Engineers" by Larry Niven | "Orbitsville" by Bob Shaw | "The World is Round" by Tony Rothman | "Wall Around a Star" by Jack Williamson and Fred Pohl | "Strata" by Terry Pratchet | "Cageworld" by Colin Kapp | "Starmaker" by Olaf Stapledon | "Titan","Wizard", and "Demon" by John Varley | "Maker of Universes" by Philip Jose Farmer | | /jlr You forgot Zelazny's Amber (+ shadows), which is a *lot* bigger than anything else mentioned here (and might even include them.) dave David Janes (Memorial University of Newfoundland) {allegra, inhp4, utcsrgv}!garfield!dave ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jul 84 9:34:32-PDT (Wed) From: ihnp4!houxm!mhuxl!ulysses!burl!clyde!watmath!utzoo!linus!philabs From: !rdin!perl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: constructed worlds Sorry to put a damper on this discussion, guys, but I don't think planet-building will ever really catch on. Remember the planet builders of Magrathea? I'm sooooooo depressed. Robert Perlberg Resource Dynamics Inc. New York philabs!rdin!perl ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Jul 84 12:48:34 EDT From: Bob Clements Subject: Constructed world, Old book request OK, I will give in to some nostalgia, and admit my age. Can anyone come up with the title and author from the following story fragment? This was one of the first SF books I read, when I was a wee tad, probably in the 50's. About all I remember is that it was of the "Earth (read Yankee) engineers can do anything" genre. There was this spaceship and a crew of fighters/galactic galivanters who cobbled up a drive that traveled to parallel universes out of spare tubes from their whatever. They were busily inventing weapons, fighting bad guys and universe hopping through most of the book. The thing that might make it possible to pin down the book is that at the end they zip over to another universe and find out that it is obviously constructed by a species more wise and powerful than they are. The whole universe is empty except for one system consisting of a perfect triangle of stars around one planet (as I recall it, maybe it was three planets in a triangle around one star). The all powerful folks who live there gently but firmly push the protagonists out of "their" universe and are not seen again. The spaceship goes back to its old ways in its old universes, but with a bit more humility. Any pointers? /Rcc ARPA: clements@bbn Usenet: ...!{decvax,linus}!bbncca!clements ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jul 84 15:02:00-PDT (Wed) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!ea!mwm @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Constructed as in BUILT, guys... - (nf) He wants built worlds, let's give him a few: The largest built world story (the world is big, not the story) is Terry Pratchett's "Strata". It makes Farmer's _World of Tiers_ books (previously mentioned on the net) look small time. ************** MILD SPOILER **************** In "Strata", we have 1) A race that creates Hydrogen out of ????. 2) A race that creates stars out of free Hydrogen. 3) A race that builds worlds around world-less stars. 4) A race that lays down crusts on worlds (with "strata machines", of course). 5) (The biggy) A race that builds universes, complete with evidence that 1-4 exist. The only world we get to see in any detail is a *flat* world (Pratchett likes those - his first novel dealt with one, too) that looks like the medieval version of earth, complete with angels, devils (or deveels :-) and magic. (To show the inaccuracy of the source, it said that Pink Floyd > would be doing the music. [The Dark Side Of Arrakis? with green > pyramids?]) For what it is worth, Pink Floyd WAS going to do the music for the second aborted version of Dune (they also had Geiger doing the set design, some of his usual repellent work). Joe Kalash kalash@berkeley ucbvax!kalash ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 24 Jul 1984 08:07:02-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Jerry Boyajian) To: fl%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: re: DUNE: Welles and Floyd > Back a few years, rumor had it that Orson Welles would be in DUNE. > It did not mention his part, but I would guess he would play Baron > "I will sell no spice before its time" Harkonnen. (To show the > inaccuracy of the source, it said that Pink Floyd would be doing > the music. [The Dark Side Of Arrakis? with green pyramids?]) > > Steve Kovner That source was not so innacurate as you believe. There have been a few attempts before the current production to film DUNE. In one such, being produced and directed by Alexandro Jodorowsky, Orson Welles was indeed picked to play the Baron (and Salvador Dali --- yes, that one! --- was to play the Emperor). Pink Floyd was signed on to do the soundtrack for one of the productions, but I think it wasn't for Jodorowsky, but for a previous attempt by DiLaurentiis. *That* production was to be directed by Ridley Scott, from a script by Frank Herbert himself, and with production designs by H. R. Giger. jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jul 84 1:02:38-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!ut-sally!atc @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: 2010: Odyssey Two The director of 2010 is Peter Hyams. His SF-related credits include Capricorn One and Outland. His most recent film was The Star Chamber. A. T. Campbell (atc@ut-sally!uucp) ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jul 84 12:03:46-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!bragvax!david @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Rumors wanted 1. In the August SFC, Kay Anderson repeats a rumor that Star Wars IV is in pre-production. Would anyone in netland like to contribute to this rumor? 2. Ditto for details of the Princess Leia/Paul Simon situation. Was this in People magazine? Please mail-carrier, bring back my person! (non-sexist version) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 26-Jul SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #150 *** EOOH *** Date: 26 Jul 84 1353-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #150 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 26 Jul 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 150 Today's Topics: ******SPECIAL STAR TREK ISSUE****** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Jul 1984 16:19:06 EDT ( FRIDAY ) From: Stephen R. Balzac Subject: Star Trek For what its worth, here's my guess as to how STIV will solve the various problems created in STIII: Kirk et all leave Vulcan and return to Earth, where StarFleet plans to roast them alive for stealing Enterprise, disobeyance of orders, etc, etc... Unfortunately for StarFleet, the media has somehow gotten hold of (a version) of the incidents chronicled in STIII (as to how they manage this, don't ask me. If they could find out about Genesis, Khan, et all in the first place, I'm sure they can find out the rest as well. Maybe the Vulcans will let it leak out), and is touting Kirk as Public Hero Number One, the man who saved Genesis from the dastardly Klingon Empire. Under the circumstances, StarFleet finds itself under enormous political and media pressure (remember, StarFleet is NOT the Federation Government. It is only a branch thereof, and has to get its funding somewhere. Politicians are notoriously reluctant to courtmartial a Public Hero) to reward Kirk, not courtmartial him. The solution they come up with is to send him off on some highly dangerous mission, somewhere out in the middle of nowhere. If he survives, well then they can let bygones be bygones. If he fails, then StarFleet has rid itself of an embarrassment. Naturally, Kirk and co. will get a new ship, coincidently named Enterprise, to hop around in. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jul 84 14:37:34-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!saturn!hull @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Ship numbering >>Enterprise: NCC-1701 >>Excelsior: NX-2000 >> >>NCC stands for Naval Construction Contract (according to Franz >>Joseph Designs, anyway). What, if anything, does NX stand for? My best guess would be Naval Experimental. Jim Hull HP Labs ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jul 84 13:03:48-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!dual!jeff @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: James Tiberius Kirk I don't believe Kirk's full name is used until the TV cartoon releases were done. His name is spoken by a sloth/jello alien creature who is telepathic, I don't recall the episode or the aliens names but each of the aliens refer to Kirk as James Tiberius Kirk. To quote the immortal Bill the Cat, "GACK". Jeff Houston Dual Systems Corp., Berkeley, CA {ucbvax,ihnp4,cbosgd,zehntel,fortune,decwrl,a few more I dont know of}!dual!jeff ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 23 Jul 1984 07:28:22-PDT From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (The Stainless Steel Rat) Subject: Lesser punishment for James T. Kirk First quote: > Question for the person on the net with the naval knowledge: If > Kirk were to, say, go on an incredibly dangerous and important > mission (Starfleet having absolutely no recourse but to use Kirk), > and he succeeded, could there realistically be some lesser > sentence levied against Kirk? Say a year or two in prison, or > some such punishment? Second quote: >Don't know if it's true or not, but I recall reading somewhere, >sometime, that in French military practice a soldier who disobeys >an order (in battle?) is indeed executed-- unless his action leads >to a successful outcome to the engagement, in which case he is not >only pardoned, but awarded a special medal. Not knowing for certain if I am the "person...with naval knowledge" who is referred to, I'll take a shot anyway. The Articles of War are very specific. The wording is, I believe, "...death, or such lesser punishment as he is deemed to deserve." The administration of a lesser punishment, as I implied in my earlier screed, is not undertaken lightly because of the absolute need for unadulterated discipline. In the British navy during Napoleonic times, that lesser punishment was never less than being flogged round the fleet, ie a minimum of 500 strokes with the cat; and the victim, if he didn't die outright, wasn't much good for anything tougher than sitting about and supping soup. With the vast increase in the sophistication of punishment technology, one might assume that a comparable sentence for Kirk would be permanent stimulation of the tri-geminal nerve or some such. The romantic French with their swashbuckler's loophole are but one more example of losers - they have never in their entire history managed to establish a military force to be reckoned with. (Please don't burden the net with citation of the Foreign Legion or Napoleon - I'll happily discredit them in separate mail.) As for using Kirk for a mission that only he could handle, no bloody way! Assuming that there were an admiral over him stupid enough to jeopardize HIS OWN career by rewarding Kirk's misbehaviour, Kirk would still have been disposed of long before such an opportunity arose. Third quote: > Enterprise: NCC-1701 > Excelsior: NX-2000 > NCC stands for Naval Construction Contract (according to Franz > Joseph Designs, anyway). What, if anything, does NX stand for? Why, it stands for Naval eXperimental, of course! Cheers, Dick Binder (The Stainless Steel Rat) UUCP: { decvax, allegra, ucbvax... } !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-dosadi!binder ARPA: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jul 1984 10:20:36 EDT ( MONDAY ) From: Stephen R. Balzac Subject: ST III NX probably stands for Naval Experimental, since I doubt it stands for Nuclear Xylophone. We've been talking about ST III, and what may happen in ST IV, for awhile now. I think maybe we should try to guess the title of ST IV. For example: Star Trek IV: Jim Kirk Rides Again or Old Starship Captains Never Die, They Just Come Back In Sequels. (OSCNDTJCBIS) ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jul 1984 09:03:55 EDT ( MONDAY ) From: Stephen R. Balzac Subject: ST III From a friend of mine, not on the network: RE: Digest v9 #147 - ST Special Here are some comments/questions/vague misgivings which jumped out at me--and from me--upon reading v9 #147. James Kirk's middle name was revealed in the animated episode "Bem", by David Gerrold. Now, this statement immediately brings me cries of "The animateds?!? Are you crazy?" and "Cartoon Trek doesn't count" and such stuff. I would like to put forth a motion into the whole of Trek fandom (an awesome task, certainly, but I like to think big). What, exactly, comprises the Trek universe? When considering this question, we have only a few possible sources to draw from: the series, the animated episodes, the movies, the novels, and the documentary-type books. Now, I think it is beyond question that the series is and always must be counted as part of the ST universe. And the movies are also a prime candidate (although some want to disavow knowledge of Spock's death and--in my case--of his resurrection). But there seems to be a growing and very determined movement afoot to disclaim the animateds as a part of the "real" Trek universe. Certainly, the reasons are self-evident: the animateds were loose, short, and not entirely consistent or as good as the live-action series. Personally, I would like to count the animateds as "real" Trek; there is a lot of decent stuff in them, enough to warrant their inclusion into the Trek universe. But I can see where it might be better to discount the animateds. Let's make a decision on this, Trek fans, so that we can all talk about Trek on the same level. The novels of Trek, it seems, are gaining more and more acceptance as Trek authorities. People continue to cite this novel or that as the source for some piece of Trekanalia. But the novels are all too often inconsistent with each other, even though they may be consistent with the series. I love most of the novels (and I have read them all, and hope to write some, sooner or later), but they really can not be counted as part of Trek universe. So too goes the argument on such books as "The Making of. . ." Roddenberry may state his opinions, but opinions change and he may not want some things to be included now. Hey, fans, how 'bout this: Star Trek IS the series, the animateds, and the movies, and that's it. (As I said, the novels are nice, and often excellent, sometimes great, but, as a whole, too inconsistent. Also, there are certainly many who have not read them all, and why should they be denied access to the whole of the Trek universe?) Since I have gone on a bit, I'll end and continue with other stuff later. Just one more thing: we do not know how long Pike commanded Enterprise, but Spock served under him for over thirteen years. Peace and long life to all, David George ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jul 84 18:49 EDT (Mon) From: Marla (Selinger@Ru-Blue) Subject: Star Trek Trivia (no spoilers) I believe the animated series in which we learn that T stands for Tiberius is "BEM" (by Larry Niven?). A goddess-like intelligence is supervising the development of a early culture, and the Enterprise happens to visit this planet. When she demands to know who is interfering with her plans, Kirk responds with his FULL name. I remember this quite clearly, and was always surprised when others didn't know Kirk's middle name. Also, as to what the NX in Excelsius's number stands for... I've been working with military equipment for over a year now, and can state fairly certainly that most equipment serial letters aren't understandable acronyms. For instance, our equipment is an AN/UYK-7. AN= Army/Navy (invented before Air Force came along), U = something like general purpose, Y = data processing equipment, K = komputer (of course!) 7 = major revision #7 of hardware. Makes almost no sense whatsoever, right? You'd have to have the list in front of you to figure out what all the letters stand for. To complicate matters, a letter in one position doesn't mean the same thing when it is in a different position. So NX can probably be defined as almost any reasonable pair of words. Marla Selinger ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jul 84 18:51 EDT (Mon) From: Marla (Selinger@Ru-Blue) Cc: Tony Li Subject: james TIBERIAS kirk Kirk's wife? You mean Miramanee? I think that was the only one he ever married... Greetings from Rutgers! Marla Selinger ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jul 84 21:19:06-PDT (Mon) From: decvax!cwruecmp!atvax!ncoast!bsafw @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Star Trek honoring Arthur C. Clarke(?) If so, we were warned by Alan Dean Foster. In the novelization of STTMP, Kirk reflects on the surprise generated by the discovery of a monolith on the moon at the beginning of the 21st century... :-) Brandon Allbery: decvax!cwruecmp{!atvax}!bsafw 6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, OH 44131 Witness, n. To watch and learn, joyously. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jul 84 9:22:20-PDT (Fri) From: sun!qubix!ios!wjvax!paul @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: James Tiberius Kirk Nope! The computer says only 'James T. Kirk'... The only reference to Kirk's middle name that I have seen was in the novelization of STTMP, by Kirk himself in the forward. The cited episode (Court Martial) does provide material for a real hummer of a trivia question: What is James T. Kirk's serial number? Unfortunately, I can't remember. Anyone? ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jul 1984 14:49:19 EDT ( TUESDAY ) From: Stephen R. Balzac Subject: ST III From a friend of mine not on the net: Date: 24 July 1984, 14:07:01 EDT From: ELLIS2 at YKTVMT How about putting this sucker in for me, please? I am continually reading messages about Star Trek in the Digest. Some comment positively, others comment negatively. Now, I have met plenty of people who really like Star Trek, and plenty of others who simply do not like it. I have met still others (very few of these) who have never even watched ST, and others (even fewer of these) who truly love ST. But I am surprised at the types of negative comments that have been written about Trek in this Digest. The question I have to ask is: why? I can understand people not liking Trek because they don't like Shatner, or sf, or cult fandom, or just the whole show itself. I can understand people who like Trek only because they like Shatner, or sf, or cult fandoms, or just the show itself. It is easy to understand that some people have never seen Trek. (It is sometimes hard to believe that there are others who love Trek for the reasons that I do, but I believe there must be somebody out there.) But I like Star Trek for very philosophic reasons. Star Trek attempts to project--and sometimes comment on--different philosophic items: honor, love, death, friendship, courage, etc. Also included in the philosophies are moral questions: overpopulation, killing, self-defense, prejudice. Now, there are episodes when the acting is terrible, or the story, the dialogue, the effects--everything, in fact--is terrible. You could even argue that EVERY piece of Trek ever produced is terrible in all of these ways, and more. (I would not agree, but that is irrelevant.) But Star Trek is something else entirely. Star Trek is a commercial product, a vehicle to make certain people as much money as possible. As we have seen, in Trek and other productions, this commercialism often comprises stories, characters, and the like. But through all of Trek's tribulations, it has ATTEMPTED in a very serious manner to present and examine moral and philosophical entities. Still, Trek must make money, and these two points are often irreconcilable. I am sure there are those of you out there that will say that there was not one instant of Trek that was ever any good. But is that really true? For, from the outset, Trek has sought to do what no other entity had ever done: produce a forum for ideas and philosophies for the general public. I am not a "Trekkie". I was touched when Spock died, felt like I had lost a friend, in fact. But I accepted it. It was good drama (in my opinion). For this reason, I did not want Spock to come back; I felt (and feel) it would (and did) sacrifice some of the impact of ST II. I mention this because I want to show that I am not a "Trekkie". I am a Star Trek fan, a science fiction fan, if you must have a label. But I like the genre of sf for the same reasons I like ST: it provides a means of presenting and examining philsophies and ideas. Not all sf is good at so doing; those pieces I do not like, but I do not condemn--they have tried, but they could have been better. Other pieces of sf I feel are trash: they do not try to do anything. If you consider Star Wars sf, then (I feel) it is garbage. I loved Star Wars; I feel it was not trash. But it was not science fiction. What it comes down to is this: you might not enjoy Star Trek, or you might feel that it misses its intended mark (even to 100% innaccuracy), but can it be CONDEMNED? Some of you have written very biting remarks about Trek, and those hit home because they concern not just a show or movie, but a group of philosophies and ideas. Even if you feel that Trek misses the mark (and I agree that it has, at least sometimes), doesn't it deserve some measure of appreciation for what it has attempted to be, and what it has become on different levels? I mean, can you imagine what Trek would be like--how good, even great, it would be--if somebody who loved ST and sf produced it. Maybe someday that might happen. I, for one, am hoping it does. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 6-Aug SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #151 *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Aug 84 1200-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #151 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 6 Aug 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 151 Today's Topics: Administrivia - Downtime at Rutgers, Books - Lieber & Jokes (2 msgs) & Man vs Machine & The Man Who Ruled the World & Robotic Can Opener (3 msgs) & Book Request, Films - Dan O'Herlihy & Elfquest & Dante, Miscellaneous - Films at SF Cons & SF in Media & Is Star Wars Truly Science Fiction? & PARTY TIME ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 6 Aug 84 11:16:45 EDT From: Saul Subject: Down time at Rutgers My deepest apologies to all of you SF fans out there who were suffering from loss of SF-LOVERS for the last week or so. Because of various mix-ups, bureaucratic fumbles and a bevy of gremlins, we lost our connection to the ARPAnet for a time. Those of you who sent messages back that could not get through may resend them! SF-LOVERS is alive and well and digests shall once more storm forth to plague all your mail files! Live long and prosper! Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Aug 84 12:05 EST From: Steven Gutfreund Subject: Ghostbusters & Lieber While the GhostBusters plot theme did appear highly original, I did remember reading something similiar, after a check of my library I found it: OUR LADY OF DARKNESS -- Fritz Lieber (c) 1977 This is a story about one very weird man by the name of Thiebaut deCastries who lived in San Francisco from 1900-1928. He was interested and published a book about paramentals and their growing concentration in large cities. deCastries was your basic DoomProphet, prophesizing that the increasing concentration of steel, paper, concrete, and oil products in cities was causing an increase in paramental activity and eventual doom. deCastries was "discovered" by a group of bohemian writers/poets/actresses living in the city at the time (Jack London, Clark Ashton Smith, ... ) and became a focus point for anti-industrial sabatoge against the increasing concentration of mass in the city. Weird stuff, but even stranger is that the story is told via flashback by a contemporary sf/mystery writer who discovers that himself at the "fulcrum" of a paramental time bomb left by deCastries. This book is written in the style of a travelog. In a manner similiar to Victor Hugo in Les Miserables, we are taken through the streets hills and sights of San Francisco. For lovers of this city, it is a real trip to read. An excellent story by an Author who is not given enough credit. (I also recommend the Gray Mouser series, and Gather Darkness, a story about future based witches). Q: The general theme of SF is that Technology contains the ANSWERS and that religion is just common-sense sociology. But there are some authors who have taken the delightfully perverse opposite attitude that increasing technology will increase para-normal events. I'm definitely not talking about the Force in SW, but things such as MidSummer Century by Blish (he turned to mysticism towards his death), and the Fritz Lieber stories I just mentioned. Ok, so what other stories do people know that buck the group-think of current SF and deal with paramentalism and mysticism in a technological future. Send in your replies as "RE: paratechnomysticism" - Steven Gutfreund gutfreund%umass-cs.csnet@csnet-relay ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jul 1984 10:13:12 EDT ( MONDAY ) From: Stephen R. Balzac Subject: Gordon R. Dickson Light Bulb Jokes How many Dorsai does it take to change a light bulb? At least 4: 1 Battle Op to consider the theoretical tactical and strategic ramifications, 1 Field Marshall to adapt the Battle Op's results to the actual situation, 1 Soldier to stand guard on the light bulb socket, 1 Soldier to perform the operation according to the Field Marshall's conclusions, modified by his particular situation. Of course, many more Dorsai could be required, to wit: 1 Squad to take and hold the building containing the burnt out light bulb, 1 Squad to take and hold the nearest light bulb factory, 1 Convoy to bring the light bulb from the factory to the building, 1 Squad to protect the convoy. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jul 1984 10:02:27 EDT ( TUESDAY ) From: Stephen R. Balzac Subject: Gordon R. Dickson & Light Bulbs How many Friendlies does it take to screw in a light bulb? None. When the Lord no longer wants His soldiers to sit in the dark, He will grant them light. ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jul 84 10:49:06-PDT (Sun) From: ihnp4!ihuxp!wbpesch @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Man vs. Machine Another is in a recent Asimov's, a short called Reatime. A great story, I highly recommend it. Walt Pesch AT&T Technologies ihnp4!ihuxp!wbpesch ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jul 84 10:02:26-PDT (Wed) From: decvax!genrad!wjh12!foxvax1!brunix!jss @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: The Man who Ruled the World Ah, Michaelmas was a short story that was blown up into a novel. That explains what has been bothering me about it. The novel, by the way, was published 1977, by Berkley Medallion Books. It has nice characterization, and goes along quite well until some point where the author seems to realize that while he's got a nice, well-worked-out gimmick, he doesn't have a *plot*. So he tosses in some aliens with no motivation to give himself an ending. This is often a problem with otherwise good science fiction (possibly with non-science fiction, too. I don't read much of it). It is relatively easy to come up with a "what if", but much more difficult to create a plot. judith schrier brunix!jss ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jul 1984 01:42-EST From: Dragon Subject: Robotic bottle opener The story in question (series? I'd be interested in knowing if there are others) is Gallegher Plus, by Henry Kuttner. It can be found in Cosmic Laughter (ed. Joe Haldeman). The robot never really had a name; Gallegher called it Narciscus but it objected. -D ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 24 Jul 1984 07:55:33-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Jerry Boyajian) Subject: re: Robotic Can Opener > I have fond but very vague memories of a series of stories from > a couple of decades ago, about an inventor who did his best work > while drunk and the robot he invented while in said state, whose > primary purpose was to be a beer-can opener. The inventor's name > may have been Gallagher and the robot's Joe; I do remember that > beer cans had just been replaced by "plasti-bulbs," rendering the > robot obsolete as well as silly. > > Can anyone give me a pointer to these stories? Thanks. > -- Bob Munck (MUNCK@MITRE-BEDFORD.ARPA) I believe you're thinking of the "Galloway Gallegher" stories by Henry Kuttner (originally published in ASTOUNDING SCIENCE FICTION under the pseudonym Lewis Padgett). The only collection of those stories, ROBOTS HAVE NO TAILS, is long out of print, but you might find a copy in a good used bookstore. You might find some of the stories in other collections of Kuttner's, too. Give a day or so, and I'll have a bibliography for you. jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my Business"> ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jul 84 00:10:14 PDT (Wed) From: utcsrgv!mcgill-vision!mouse Subject: Robotic Can Opener The story is "The Proud Robot", by Lewis Padgett. I have it in the collection "FAMOUS SCIENCE-FICTION STORIES: Adventures in Time and Space", editors Raymond J. Healy and J. Francis McComas; The Modern Library (Random House), New York. The collection is copyright 1946, 1957 (more than a couple of decades ago!) by Random House. The credits in the front credit the story to Astounding, no date given. The inventor was Gallegher and the robot was indeed Joe. I love it. If you liked "The Proud Robot", you should like "Time Locker", Lewis Padgett, same collection, same credits. Personally, I like about three-quarters of the stories in that collection. There's quite a selection there; it's 997 pages. der Mouse (...!uw-beaver!utcsrgv!mcgill-vision!mouse) [Moderator's Note: Thanks also to the following for presenting similar information: Peter Alfke (Alfke.pasa@XEROX.ARPA) Morris M. Keesan (keesan @ BBN-UNIX.ARPA) ] ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jul 84 21:22:22 EDT From: Dave Subject: Book request Well, here's a tough one for you. I'm trying to get the title of the first science fiction book that I read (about 10 years ago). I know it was one book in an Ace Double. What little I remember (which could be wrong) is as follows: A man (earthman?) is rescuing a girl (alien girl?) from a city on an alien planet. What I really remember is a scene where they escaped from the city and are fleeing across an "ocean" which is made up of some kind of "webbing". There are also interesting boats on this "ocean". Sorry for not being able to recall more of the story but its been quite a while. Any ideas would be appreciated. ds ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jul 84 14:15:49-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!fluke!moriarty @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: "The Last Starfighter": Dan O'Herlihy Actually, O'Herlihy was in the last couple of episodes of "Whiz Kids" as the head of a secret NSA-like organization. In fact... I wonder if the character has an alias called "Dr. Smith"? :-) Lucky Richie never ran into the organization's enforcer... "That's the biz, sweetheart" Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc. UUCP: {cornell,decvax,ihnp4,sdcsvax,tektronix,utcsrgv}!uw-beaver \ {allegra,gatech!sb1,hplabs!lbl-csam,decwrl!sun,ssc-vax} -- !fluke!moriarty ARPA: fluke!moriarty@uw-beaver.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jul 84 11:10:58-PDT (Tue) From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!shark!hutch @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: "Elfquest" movie | > Nirvana Productions, which at one time was planning an animated | > version of Wendy & Richard Pini's "Elfquest", is definitely not | > making this film. | Indeed. According to the Pini's (via the Elfquest Fanclub | Newsletter), Nevana wanted to do (some portion approaching the | whole of) the film in live action, which the Pini's found | repugnant to say the least. In addition, the Pini's claim that | Nirvana was reluctant to revert the rights and only threats of | legal action goaded them into doing the right thing. OK, folks, repeat after me. Nelvana NEL VAN A nelvana nelvana nelvana nelvana Now, remember, it isn't "Nirvana Productions" and it isn't Nevana. It's NELVANA. The name comes from the Amerind mythos of several Canadian tribes, and is the name of the Goddess of the Aurora, if I recall correctly. Please try to be more precise in the future. Hutch ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 84 15:26:58 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: Joe Dante's next film Joe Dante, director of "Gremlins", is next going to be working on a science fiction film called "Explorers" (despite an earlier comment on his part that he was tired of working with horror/fantasy). The original screenplay is by Eric Luke, a graduate of the UCLA film school, who once worked at "A Change of Hobbit", LA's best sf bookstore. The content of the film is a closely guarded secret. All they're saying is : " "Explorers" plot concerns three boys who make "an amazing discovery" that propels them on a "fantastic journey" involving a common dream. " (LA Times, July 27). Filming will start in fall, if it doesn't get scuttled before then. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa {ihnp4,ucb}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Jul 84 16:59:38 EDT From: Sue Muuss Cc: mjm@BRL-TGR.ARPA Subject: favorite sf movies Here's your chance to tell me what sf films you would like to see when you go to sf conventions: I'm conducting an informal poll to obtain film tiltles. The poll will last from now until Labor Day (Sept.03), and I'll post preliminary results about three weeks from now. Final results will be posted shortly after Labor Day. Please, DO NOT send your votes to SF-Lovers; address them to mjm@brl.arpa. This is very important, since it would not be nice to congest the digest. mjm@brl.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jul 84 15:08:16 EDT From: Daniel Dern Subject: SF In Media: This Is Progress? The Boston Globe has ads for a new musical. Based on "The Little Shop Of Horrors." I kid you not. Tendrilly, Daniel Dern ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jul 84 11:22:31-PDT (Mon) From: ihnp4!plus5!bob @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Is Star Wars Truly Science Fiction? : What is SF without a little fantasy? : Bah! It is all fiction, and all fiction is fantasy. We are just more willing to believe in the 'reality' of something with familiar science, situations, and stereotypes. bob@plus5 Bob Simpson ...!ihnp4!plus5!bob 765 Westwood Dr. St. Louis, MO 63105 314-725-9492 ------------------------------ Date: Mon 6 Aug 84 00:36-EDT From: James M. Turner Subject: It's time again... to think about the yearly SFL Worldcon Party. The annual pairing of faces and net-names, and a chance to communicate with your fellow fan faster than 9600 baud. If you are going to be at L.A.Con and want more information on location and time, send your electronic mail address to: SF-LOVERS-PARTY-REQUESTS@MIT-MC This will place you on the SF-LOVERS-PARTY mailing list, which will be used to discuss party details. As always, if you would like to contribute food, beverage, or even the use of a room (we badly need a suite), get in touch ASAP. Look for "Friends of Duffey, Jaffe, and Lauren" on the party boards. James Turner RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC JMTURN@MIT-MC ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 6-Aug SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #152 Date: 6 Aug 84 1225-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #152 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Aug 84 1225-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #152 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 6 Aug 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 152 Today's Topics: Books - Barker & Goldman & Stasheff & Constructed Worlds, Films - The Philadelphia Experiment & Star Trek (4 msgs), Miscellaneous - Matter Transmission ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 3 Aug 84 15:22:23 EDT From: Brian Charles Sudis Subject: M.A.R BARKER From reading the MAN OF GOLD without any previous knowledge or experience in his world Tukemel, I was both very impressed and very bored. I found that I had to keep reminding myself that I was not reading an introduction to a world but a book. (I could be wrong, it might have been an introduction.) There were some very good points to the book from both points of view. The way Barker built the political frame of the world was very good, but pulled away from what I felt the story line was intended to be. If taken and read by skipping every other chapter you could have one very good book and one real good insight to the world of Tukemel. "Just one man's opinion" Brian C. Sudis ------------------------------ Date: Fri 3 Aug 84 08:18:45-EDT From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: The Princess Bride In response to the recent query: The princess Bride, by William Goldman, is available in pb from Ballantine, $3-50, ISBN 0 345 31532 4 It is subtitled "A Hot Fairy Tale", but it's barely lukewarm. ------------------------------ Date: Wed 25 Jul 84 19:21:09-PDT From: William "Chops" Westfield Subject: Book reveiw: "King Kobold Revived" by Christopher Stasheff Micro-reveiw: You shouldn't re-write the middle book of a trilogy. other than that, better than the original. Reveiw: This is a re-write of "king Kobold", the middle book of the "warlock in spite of himself" trilogy. I read the original (hard to find) version, and it was really much worse than the other books, and as such, I guess rewriting it was a good idea. Unfortunately, some of the major plot elements and twists from the original have been changed completely. This isn't so bad by itself, but now "Warlock Unleashed" refers back to events that never happened. Oh well. Basic plot summary: The good guys are being attacked by mean nasty guys with powerful (even for gramarye!) evil-eye psychic powers. So our hero has to figure out who and why and how to defeat them. The book is much smoother than the original "king kobold", and you won't be getting ripped off by buying both, but it just doesn't fit in as well with the rest of the trilogy. Speaking of Stasheff, in the prequel ("Escape velocity"), There are a number of planets that might be interesting in the future. One is Gramarye, one is the asteroid where Fess comes from, and the third is the "prison planet" where the book opens. Whatever happened to that place? Is it the topic of any other books? BillW ------------------------------ Date: Fri 3 Aug 84 08:18:28-EDT From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: Constructed Worlds A real oldie, packed with stock characters, bad plotting, sense of wonder &c is Dave Grinnell : Edge of Time Scientists have constructed a miniature universe in a magnetic bottle, which they watch evolve from a little bang to a single spiral galaxy; naturally at a very rapid rate. They have instruments that can spy on the tiny critters that evolve on the weeny planets, so as to steal their advanced technology ... I liked it. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Aug 84 12:34:35 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: "The Philadelphia Experiment" *Some spoiler material* "The Philadelphia Experiment" is a new science fiction film from New World Pictures (whose logo looks like AT&T's, rotated and in a different color). New World used to be Roger Corman's company, he of beach blanket movies, Hell's Angels opera (the plural of opus; sure suprised *me* when I looked it up), and Vincent Price/Edgar Allen Poe horror films. Well, New World is trying to go a little bit more legitimate, so "The Philadelphia Experiment" looks more like a typical Hollywood studio film. Too bad. It could have used a little energy, however sleazy. The story takes as its starting point some apparently actual experiments made by the US Navy during WWII. The idea was to make ships radar invisible. According to rumor, something went disastrously wrong, and the experiment was abandoned (something about a ship really disappearing...). The film assumes that what happened involved a time warp which throws a couple of sailors into 1984, where the same scientist who ran the first experiments is running another set. He's opened some kind of void which spits the sailors out, sucks a town in, and is on the way to eating the entire world. Something Must Be Done. Well, one of the sailors is the film's stars, Michael Pare. He and his buddy, Bobby Di Cicco, are initially confused, then frightened, since ham-handed MPs seem more intent on killing them than capturing them. They kidnap Nancy Allen (veteran of seemingly countless Brian DePalma films), who falls in love with Pare. Di Cicco is sucked back to the fourties, and Pare must choose between his love for Allen or saving the world. (How many of you really believe he can't get both?) It's not entirely clear why anyone bothered to make "The Philadelphia Experiment". There's nothing truly wrong with it, but it doesn't seem to excite any of the participants. Pare has a couple of good moments. Director Stewart Raffill actually manages to do something interesting with a car chase scene. Other than that, there is nothing much there. The special effects run heavily to lowering clouds and lightning, with the occasional pyrotechnics and a plagiarized light show. They are functional, but not special. Unless you're a completest, or find Pare irresistable, this would be a good film to catch up with on cable. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa {...ihnp4,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Aug 84 15:36:36 EDT From: Brian Charles Sudis Subject: NX-2000 My vote is for Naval Experimental. I also think that to name the next ship Enterprise would be simple. If they want to keep some small ties to realism, then they should attempt come up with an acceptable name. So far as the series was concerned, they stuck with "historic" vessel from the U.S. Navy. I think they should attempt to bring in a name (or names) from other historic naval vessel. (Remember, they are set in a time when world peace is reality) So why not a historic British ship or maybe even a German or Russian ship or even something from an other Federation planets Naval past? " !" Brian C. Sudis ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Aug 84 10:25 EDT From: " Roz " Subject: Court Martial? For what it's worth: In recent history (last 10 years or so), general officers (U.S. Army sticks in my mind) who ***spoke*** out against the administration were not courtmartialed (of course, they hadn't stolen anything quite so valuable as a starship). These poor (?) fellows spoke their minds and opinions which happened to be countrary to government (stated) policy. Normally, what happens is he is offered a new assignment which is drastically below his current assignment, in prestige, responsibility, etc. (For example, a 2-star general might be offerred a 1-star's job...not good!) Normally, the erring officer then exercises his option to retire rather than accept the "down-grade" assignment. In worse offenses (like speaking your mind and saying the President was wrong, but not treason, murder, etc), the service has been known to give the officer the option: you may retire, or you may have a courtmartial...the option is only given when the service is concerned about the image of its officer corps or its own image. Because discipline is so very important during war, the Services have to demand discipline during non-wartime to ensure it is available when needed. This leads to a variety of responses to non-capital offenses during peace time, from verbal reprimands to courtsmartial...lest we forget, capital punishment is still a viable punishment for a court to award...although there are regulations saying which offenses can use capital punishment. (It has been a long time since anyone was executed for it, but rape is still punishible by death under courtmartial regulations!) Although the public may not know or realize it, most officers in any branch of US Service (and probably the enlisted personnel even better) can read between the lines and see the disciplinary action in most cases (which are publicized). And, for that reason the military community understands or knows what is going on, even if the general public doesn't. For example, several years ago an Army general in Hawaii came out on at least two occasions and said in polite politicalese that the President's policy in a particular area was wrong...the first time he made a public apology...30 days after the last one he announced his retirement! Sorry about the lesson on military justice...the bottom line is, that I feel Starfleet would consider the above and come out with something like the following; probably playing on Kirk's "officership": "For the good of the corps, discipline must be maintained!" I think a courtmartial would be required for Admiral Kirk, unless he were a hero in the public's eye. In that case, he would be offered his choice of retirement or some very obscure underling job somewhere....[and once you've tasted power it is hard to go without it!] Flames and discussions on this topic can and should be addressed to me at my EMAIL address: rtaylor at radc-multics Roz ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Aug 84 23:28 EDT From: Paul Schauble Subject: Kirk's future with Starfleet Kirk's future with Starfleet isn't necessarily as bleak as some people suggest. Remember that in any Navy that ever has existed (and presumably, ever will exist) rank and promotion at the command level depends in large part on political influence. In this case, it is quite likely that Kirk will have the Vulcans in his corner, as welll as some of the other races he and his crew helped at various times. Starfleet may not like it, but it is quite possible they will find the most expedient thing to do is to gloss over the whole incident. After all, Kirk's action kept a potentially devastating weapon out of the hands of an implacable enemy of the Federation. That doesn't necessarily mean Kirk will continue to climb the promotion ladder, however. His career had almost certainly been damaged. However he has repeatedly shown that he he is more effective as a ship commander than as an admiral. The logical thing to do would be to give him a ship and send him out on a "five year mission to explore strange new worlds. To boldly go where no man has gone before"...or something like that. Who knows, they may even bust him back to captain. STIV anyone? Rick Cook (using a friend's mailbox ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Aug 84 09:56 EDT From: Gubbins@RADC-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #150 As any Treker knows, Kirk's serial number (from memory now) is: SC 937-0176 CEC As for Tiberius, it has long been known that this was Kirk's middle name, long before the animated episodes or novelizations. I do not remember if it was ever stated in the shows. The likely places it may be found are ion the grave stone in Where No Man Has Gone Before, Courtmarshal, Let That Be Your Last Battlefield giving destruct orders, And it Must be on Kirk's Starship Pilot License!!! Cheers, Gern ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Jul 84 16:54:49 EDT From: Will Martin Subject: Matter Transmission We had a long discussion involving matter transmission a few years back on the SF-Lovers Digest, inspired mainly by a posting I made about possible forms of transportation in future societies. Not to rehash that, but because I happened to be thinking a bit more on the subject, I thought I'd send in this submission for what it is worth... I think that few SF authors who happen to use matter transmission as an ingredient or background in their work recognize all the implications of the technology. I speak here of electro-mechanical methods, not of psi powers like teleportation. I contend that, if you have matter transmission, you also have matter duplication. People offer arguments against that, speculating that it might be impossible to store the information necessary to reconstruct complex things like living organisms or the like, but it seems doubtful that such restrictions would last long if they existed at all. Matter duplication has profound implications for every aspect of life and social structure. The idea that you feed dirt, garbage, radioactive waste, or whatever in one end of the device, and at the other end take out diamonds, steak dinners, the Mona Lisa, more matter duplicators, pets, or people destroys all concepts of "wealth", "status", or "value", and not only grants immortality but also simultaneously makes life, human or otherwise, value-less. (What difference does it make if you kill somebody if he can be re-created from the last recorded pattern? You maybe made him lose an hour or a day of time; nothing more.) It grants immortality by "editing in the mix", as it were -- when you pass through the matter transmitter to go out for dinner, at the same time as it zips you to the restaurant on Tahiti or on Cygnus 4, it recreates you without crud in your arteries, stones in your kidneys, excess fat cells, cancer cells, dirt on your skin, or waste in your intestines or bladder; it can even bring you out with your hair combed (and more or less of it, as you wish!) and dressed in a tuxedo. We have just eliminated the need for clothes closets and bathrooms, among other facilities, like hospitals. Would you like to make a ringworld or a Dyson sphere? Just feed in dust, plasma, or gas giants into one end of a BIG matter duplicator, and get out a stream of ringworld material at the other end. Or get out Earth-like planets in an endless row -- could our orbit hold a few hundred Earths, equidistantly spaced far enough to minimize excess tides on each? Churn out as many as you want -- you could create them with the proper motion necessary to slip right into orbit as desired. Is your universe dying down? Feed in old, feeble stars and put out bright young main-sequence stars, chock-full of unburned hydrogen, complete with fresh planetary systems. To hell with entropy! Talk about science indistinguishable from magic! Anyway, what I am getting at, besides all the purple prose (*), is that a writer who throws in matter transport but leaves the rest of the fictional society exactly like ours, or medieval Europe, or whatever, is being inconsistent. Anyone like to nominate writers and works where the implications of the technology are taken to the fullest (at least as far as a book or series can go)? Will (*) If you poured a bottle of Burgundy over several members of the SFWA, would they be "purple pro's"? [Evil chuckle....] ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 8-Aug SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #153 Date: 8 Aug 84 1153-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #153 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Aug 84 1153-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #153 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 8 Aug 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 153 Today's Topics: Books - Piper & Robots & Matter Transmission (2 msgs) & ParaTechnoMysticism (2 msgs), Films - Hyams & Star Trek, Miscellaneous - SF Cons List ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DUNTEMANN.WBST@XEROX.ARPA Date: 7 Aug 84 13:15:09 EDT Subject: Fuzzies and Other Sequels I just finished FUZZIES AND OTHER PEOPLE, the "lost" Fuzzies novel by H. Beam Piper. I can summarize the plot without it being any spoiler at all: Fuzzies run around and have fun; some of them get into trouble and get out again; everybody lives happily ever after. I guess none of that should come as a surprise. This is an interesting novel for another reason entirely: It was found in a paper box labeled "pencil stubs" or "old bills" or "Christmas cards" or something. Poor, distraught Piper put the manuscript in the wrong box and forgot about it in those last dark days before he blew his brains out. So the story goes. I have another theory: I think Piper was ashamed of the book and hid it while he decided what could be done with it. The book is utterly flat. It tells us nothing about Fuzzies that we didn't already know. It tells us nothing about any of the major characters (Jack Holloway, Pancho Ybarra, Gerd Riebeck, the whole crowd of them sort of stand around and smoke cigarettes through the whole book) nor does it show any major character learning anything, or undergoing any kind of personality change. Nobody gains anything. Nobody loses anything. Nothing seems to matter a whit. As I closed the book, I found myself devoutly wishing that no further book on Fuzzies will ever be written. Not because I don't enjoy Fuzzies; I've read LITTLE FUZZY seven or eight times now. But the story has been told. There simply isn't anything more in it. I wished it because, if Fuzzies get too popular, the publishing industry will smell money and make a series out of it: FUZZIES #5: THE ZATKU PLAGUE by Alan Dean Foster and Jack Chalker. If you get my drift... FUZZIES AND OTHER PEOPLE solidifed my hatred of sequels for all time. A story starts somewhere, goes somewhere, and ends somewhere. Someone gains, someone loses, someone learns; some truth is told. Then the story is finished. A sequel, on the other hand, is a mechanical exercise which places familiar characters in a familiar setting and makes them dance one more dance. No one dares change anything too much, because the existence of one sequel implies the possibility of more. Star Trek, which like all television-born fiction is nothing but a series of sequels without an original work, can get away with what it does because nobody really expects anything like a story in Star Trek; one expects a stock collection of archetypes to do predictable things within a tighly-bounded sphere of possibility. What surprises are there are minimized because they have no ultimate effects. Spock can't die; too many 14-year-olds would jump off of bridges. So you bring the chap back from the dead. Nothing lost. Nothing changed. Star Wars had the good sense to End. It was shallow, but it went somewhere. Dune, which was a medioche work to begin with, will continue to spurt vapid sequels like a Gremlin undergoing Chinese water torture until Herbert has the good sense to die or become a real estate broker. Dune, like Trek, has become high-tech soap opera; each time a new sequel appears I read three pages and groan. Worst of all, sequels can drag an original work down iunto the mud. 2010 hangs from 2001 like a titanium albatross; the crisp irony of 2001's closing is gone forever. Building a new world from scratch is bold and risky. Endless slogging through old ones is safe and cowardly. Piper's response was best: If you write a sequel, put it in a box. If all you can write are sequels, it's time to move on to something else. --Jeff Duntemann duntemann.wbst@xerox ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 7 Aug 1984 09:31-EDT From: munck@Mitre-Bedford Subject: Re: Robots have no Tails -- Henry Kuttner Henry Kuttner it is. Rushing to the Kn-Ku box of my SF collection, I find "Robots have no Tails" in both an undated Lancer edition ($.95 - maybe 73-75?) and a 1960 Ballantine ($.35 !). According to the foreword by his wife (C. L. Moore), they were written in the early forties under the name Lewis Padgett and published mostly in ASF. Thanks for the pointers; a linear search through my 3K+ SF books would have taken months (with the probable digressions for re-reading). BTW, the name is "Galloway Gallegher", Gallegher with an "e" and Galloway because that was the name in the first story and Kuttner forgot it while writing the second. Gallegher tended to call the robot "Narcissus," but it insisted that its name was Joe. -- Bob Munck ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Aug 84 11:35 PDT From: Alfke.PASA@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Matter Transmission Some flames regarding Will Martins discussion of matter transmission/duplication: Matter transmission would not inevitably lead to duplication. It would (eventually) if methods of the form "record-everything-about- the-object-then-transmit-this-to-the-receiver-which-then-rebuilds-it" were used (although you could set your story in the intervening time (centuries?) before it is discovered how to record such an insanely high-bandwidth signal. However, it seems quite possible that teleportation devices might use quantum-mechanical means, in which the object's probability waveform is distorted so as to reach maximum in some distant location. (How this could be done while still maintaining the proper constraints on the waveform's shape is beyond me; let some real scientist figure that one out.) Additionally, even having the ability to record the signal describing an object does not automatically grant the ability to change it in subtle ways (removal of aging effects, combing/uncombing of hair, and more were mentioned). Maybe it would eventually be perfected, but give it a few centuries after the invention of the duplicator (remember, we need computers that can comprehend the entire enormous signal...) Other restrictions: Can the duplicator transmute elements, or do you have to dump in sufficient amounts of the proper elements to create something? (Bit of a problem for rejuvenating stars.) Even if it can, can it transmute subatomic particles? Even given all this stuff, I still refuse to believe that it automatically grants you entropy reversal. Entropy is such a fundamental mathematical consequence of physical law, it will find some method of increasing itself. To build brand-new stars from the ruins of old ones would probably require several stars-worth of energy to be dumped in . . . (Any society which used duplicators heavily would thus still require some fairly hefty source of power to run them, and you can't cheat and allow the duplicators to provide the energy. Solar seems like the best bet. Maybe the Dyson sphere will become a necessity, just to trap all the sunlight?) Boy! Isn't science *fun* ???? ~~Some further reading~~ Larry Niven, "The Theory and Practice of Teleportation" (Essay from All the Myriad Ways (Ballantine) ) A nice essay, mostly summarizing methods from other books, but also offering a few ideas of its own. George O. Smith, The Complete Venus Equilateral (Ballantine) A terrific series of stories from the 30's and 40's; a matter duplicator is eventually developed and nearly destroys "civilization as we know it". --Peter Alfke "I teleported home one day with Ron and Sid and Meg; Ron stole Maggie's heart away And I got Sidney's leg . . ." ------------------------------ Date: Tue 7 Aug 84 13:20:32-EDT From: P. David Lebling Subject: Matter Duplication The best matter duplication story I know of is Damon Knight's book, "A for Anything." In it, a cheap, easily made duplicator is invented. In the first chapter, civilization collapses. Then Knight skips ahead a few hundred years to look at the society (basically a feudal one) that arises to deal with the duplicators. The book is, I fear, out of print. Dave (pdl@xx) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Aug 84 10:55 PDT From: Alfke.PASA@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: ParaTechnoMysticism Another story that "deals with paramentalism and mysticism in a technological future" is 'Little, Big' by John Crowley (an EXCELLENT writer --- I enthusiastically recommend all four of his books to everyone!). This book deals with the simultaneous return of the denizens of Faerie and an ancient force of evil, with the decaying America of the next century as the backdrop. One could call this book "fantasy" instead of "science-fiction", but I have largely given up making such distinctions . . . in any case, it's a wonderful book. -- Peter Alfke "Man, woman, child -- All is up against the wall of SCIENCE" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Aug 84 13:11 PDT From: susser.PASA@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: Paratechnomysticism On the subject of paratechnomysticism, A. E. vanVogt has a fairly new book out called COMPUTERWORLD. The book is set in a future where the USA (or moral equivalent thereof) is largely controlled by a vast, central computer with something on the order of eighteen billion peripherals. The entire book is written from the computer's point of view, which is presented very believably. The paratechnomysticsm comes in when the computer is fitted with peripherals that allow it to monitor what I would call people's "auras", but what vanVogt referred to as "bio-magnetic energies". In response, a group of scientific mystics arises, protesting that the computer is actually draining these energies, much to the detriment of everybody's life force. The mystics use the computer's manipulation of these bio-magnetic energies to increase their own power and find a really nifty conclusion to the story. I don't know if this is the kind of paratechnomysticism you were looking for, but I would recommend it as an entertaining story (if you can ignore the gaping holes in vanVogt's knowledge of computer science). -- Josh Susser ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 6 Aug 1984 05:59:35-PDT From: dearborn%sage.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Randy SFX Dearborn, DTN: From: 264-5090) Subject: Peter Hyams, Director of 2010 Just a little bit of trivia about Peter Hyams, the director of 2010: Odyssey Two: His first film was "T.R.Baskin." It was an awful film, shot in Chicago, staring Candice Bergen. Before that, he was a newscaster on the channel 2 news in Chicago. He seems to be known for turning out very average, very "safe" films. I hope that his skills have improved on 2010. Randy Dearborn Digital Media Services Merrimack, NH SAGE::DEARBORN 603-884-5090 F.A.B. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Aug 84 02:28 EST From: Andrew D. Sigel Subject: Star Trek -- Canon and Deadwood David George brings up an excellent point for discussion: what are the boundaries of the Star Trek universe? Not geographically, but in terms of source material. I have noticed a few things, however. While I would certainly not be at all willing to allow the Star Trek books, as a general rule, to be official source material, I should point out that at least one original novel, to my knowledge, has been used by Harve Bennett. All through the three seasons, two characters were never given names. Oh, we knew James Kirk, Montgomery Scott, Leonard McCoy, Pavel Chekov, Christine Chapel, and even Janice Rand. But it was always Mr. Sulu, and Lieutenant Uhura. The first Star Trek novel published by Pocket Books changed that. Sulu was a key character, and was given a name: Hikaru. The novel was THE ENTROPY EFFECT by Vonda McIntyre. It was natural, therefore, for her to insert that name into the novelization of THE WRATH OF KHAN, though it never appeared in the movie. In ST III, however, the name Hikaru is said by Kirk (in the living room scene which Sarek interrupts); the quote is "Uhura, Pavel, Hikaru...". Sulu now has a first name officially inserted into the ST canon. The strange thing is that, in an informal setting, he still calls the Lt. by her last name. Well, now Uhura HAS a first name. In Diane Duane's MY ENEMY, MY ALLY, it is Nyota Uhura. (And furthermore, she is ranked a Lt. Commander, while Sulu and Chekov are still Lieutenants.) Now, I'm not sure I buy that ranking, because she's just a Commander in the most recent movie, while both Sulu and Chekov have gone beyond that rank, and I can't believe she'd be that much slower than they would. However, as far as I'm concerned, she's Nyota Uhura, and I hope the next movie or movie adaptation confirms it, because she's needed a first name for nearly 20 years. Three cheers for Diane Duane. Because Hikaru was taken from THE ENTROPY EFFECT, does that mean the novel also becomes canon? Or because characters and situations from that novel are referred to in the novelizations of the second and third movies, do they therefore gain respectability? To that latter, more than the former, I would say yes. So much of both movies ended up on the cutting room floor, some of the books are just restoring scenes that should never have been cut in the first place. And for the rest, well, I trust Vonda McIntyre. She is not only a highly competent writer, but she knows her Star Trek, and has great affection for the material. In my view, THE ENTROPY EFFECT is also to be allowed to join canon, as McIntyre has managed to integrate it so well with her movie novelizations. With less conviction, I allow certain of the novels into the canon, because they don't violate anything I hold dear, because they add important details (MY ENEMY, MY ALLY, and, because it introduces several characters found in MEMA, her first novel, THE WOUNDED SKY, both by Diane Duane; she gave Uhura a first name), and because they are well written AND good ST adventures. I will, as a general rule, discount any fan fiction and most of what was published by Bantam and Ballantine. I think, however, little bits of information from the cartoon series can be accepted. Specifically, the expansion of James T. Kirk to James Tiberius Kirk. Lets face it, the episode was written by David Gerrold, who wrote THE TROUBLE WITH TRIBBLES. It filled out information we had (T. to Tiberius), and Gerrold is one of the big ST mavens. I have no doubt that whoever writes ST IV is going to have, as part of the bio sheets on all the characters, the name of James Tiberius Kirk, with the added info that the T. is commonly used. Most of the criteria here is highly personalized, but I'd be willing to thrash out something more 'logical' and generalized. What do the rest of you want to do? Andrew Sigel ------------------------------ Date: Fri 3 Aug 84 00:39:53-PDT From: Rich Zellich Subject: SF Cons list updated SRI-NIC file CONS.TXT has been updated and is available for FTP. SRI-NIC supports the net-standard "ANONYMOUS" Login within FTP, using any password. CONS.TXT is currently 999 lines (or 45,361 characters). For those desiring a hardcopy of the list, a "pocket" version (4.25" x 11", 1/4-size print) is available for 50 cents at St. Louis in '88 bid parties, or 75 cents via mail from: St. Louis in '88 Worldcon Bid PO Box 1058 St. Louis, MO 63188 Hope to see you all at L.A.Con II, Rich ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 10-Aug SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #154 Date: 10 Aug 84 1219-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #154 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 10 Aug 84 1219-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #154 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 10 Aug 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 154 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Delany & MacAvoy & May & Piper & Sequels & Matter Transmission (5 msgs), Films - The Last Starfighter & Star Wars & Buckaroo Banzai & Star Trek ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Aug 84 17:48:10-PDT (Wed) From: decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!whuxle!eric @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Ghostbusters & Lieber Well, how about "On a Pale Horse", a recent offering from that book cranker outer, Piers Anthony. In said story, we have Zane, an inhabitant in a near future Earth. Science hasn't advanced much, but MAGIC and SUPERNATURAL have come to the front. Zane becomes Death, in the mythilogical sense, Satan plays a part, we have potions, stones, carpets, and everything else.... a GREAT read (now what Piers? where's the Xanth book? I'm waiting!!!!) ------------------------------ Date: Wed 8 Aug 84 13:42:48-PDT From: Sam Hahn Subject: Delany's "The Tides of Lust". How does one obtain a copy these days? I understand it's out of print. ------------------------------ Date: Thu 9 Aug 84 11:22:37-PDT From: Randall B. Neff Subject: R. A. MacAvoy AUTOGRAPH PARTY R. A. MacAvoy will be autographing her books on SUNDAY, AUGUST 19 from 3 to 5 pm at Future Fantasy, 2033 El Camino Real, Palo Alto 327-9242 Her books: Tea With the Black Dragon (Hugo and Nebula nominee) Domiano Domiano's Lute Raphael (due in for the party) Bring your books and meet the author. (Future Fantasy is in the first block south of Stanford University.) ------------------------------ Date: 06 Aug 84 11:10:25 PDT (Mon) From: Greg Finnegan Subject: Julian May and The Adversary I just received the final book (yes, it is the final book) in the Julian May's Pliocene Era tetrology. I couldn't resist peeking at the end of the book to see if this was indeed the final chapter, but May fans need not fret; there is a new trilogy under way that covers the events of the rebellion in the Galactic Milieu. If any of you out there are time travel or psychic power fans - you should not miss this series. It presents some rather interesting ideas. And if you are not fans - read it anyway - it's good fun. More on the latest book, The Adversary, when I finish reading it. Greg (finnegan@uci-750a) "Wrong will be right, when Aslan comes in sight." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 84 10:18:04 edt From: csin!cjh@cca-unix Subject: H. Beam Piper I have read that the proximate cause of his suicide (aside from possible worship of Hemingway) was the news that the last part of the magazine serialization that became LORD KALVAN OF OTHERWHEN had been irretrievably lost by the Post Offal (apparently Piper was the sort of person who believed that Real Men don't use carbon paper). This turned out to be false, but by then it was too late. . . . I wouldn't swear to this, since it sounds a little too Hollywoodesque to have really happened. ------------------------------ Date: Wed 8 Aug 84 23:46:00-EDT From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: Sequels A rousing Hurrah! to Jeff Duntemann's diatribe against sequels. Yes, even "2010"; even "Foundation's Edge"; even "Gods of Riverworld"; even "Vice-Presidential Candidate of Dune"; ... ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 8 Aug 1984 04:56:38-PDT From: bluejay%raven1.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: Re: A Matter of Transmission Re: the use of matter transmitters to dress you on the way to the theater and cleaning up your insides: Larry Niven's novel "A World out of Time" uses displacement booths for just such a purpose. (Slight spoiler) In one scene, our hero jumps into a displacement booth and pushes the button, trying to get away from the bad guys. Much to his surprise, he goes no where, but he notices that a cloud of 'stuff' appears in the booth across the room. He runs off, and later we find that the colour is returning to his hair, etc... (End spoiler) From the flapping feathers of | The above text does not in any ...decwrl!rhea!raven1!Bluejay | represent the views, thoughts, or on the DEC Enet, | or anything else or any person, Raven1::Bluejay | institution, organization, | company, or sentient being, | other than [perhaps] myself. ------------------------------ Date: 9 August 1984 00:22-EDT From: Steven A. Swernofsky Subject: Matter Transmission To: Alfke.PASA @ XEROX I am rather surprised that no one has mentioned Ray Brown's ''Reformed Sufi'' universe, which relates the ''Transmat'' matter transmission device and the religion(!) which develops due to it. Recent stories have developed an interesting twist to the store-and-forward method of matter transmission -- matter simulation! Rather than storing the pattern to real-world objects and duplicating them in the real-world, why not just place the ''object'' in a pattern for a small part of the universe (a pocket universe) and simulate its activity? After all, if you can store all that data you should also be able to process it! This leads to some interesting results. For example, the simulated world can run at normal speed, or faster or slower. Or backwards. Or with different ''physical laws.'' Or ... well, see the stories. (Is this the real world, or just a simulation?) -- Steve ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 9 Aug 1984 06:01:34-PDT From: a_vesper%advax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: Social Effects of Matter Transmitters Will Martin asked about stories that discuss (mechanical) matter transmitters and how they might change society. Larry Niven, "Exercise in Speculation: The Theory and Practice of Teleportation" (C) 69 Galaxy. In @i(All the Myriad Ways), Ballantine, 71. An excellent discussion on how society might change given teleporters with different characteristics. (Cost per pound moved, maximum range, ...) Larry Niven, "Flash Crowd" (C) 73, @i(Three Trips in Time and Space) Dell, 73, Robert Silverberg, Ed. Also in @i(The Flight of the Horse), Ballantine 73. What happens when a large number of people can 'port into one small area quickly? Larry Niven, "Alibi Machine" and "All the Bridges Rusting" (C) 73 Vertex, "A @i(Kind) of Murder" (C) 74 Analog, "The Last Days of the Permanent Floating Riot Club", all in @i(A Hole in Space), Ballantine 74. Misc. topics. (I stopped researching at home at this point, the rest is sketchy because it is from my memory.) Larry Niven, "A World out of Time". Although "instant elsewhere" machines form only a small part of this novel, you may find it interesting. Alfred Bester, @i(The Stars My Destination). This is a SF classic dealing with the implications of non-mechanical teleportation (called "Jaunting"). George O. Smith, @i(The Complete Venus Equilateral) has a couple of stories dealing with mechanical teleportation. I can't remember the names but I recommend that you read every story anyway as they are lots of fun to read ("Dad, you ran Venus Equilateral on VACUUM TUBES"). Jack Williamson & somebody else, @i(Wall Around a Star) and its predecessor or successor. Matter transmitters are indeed duplicators. They are expensive enough that there is (usually) one person per planet and so they don't change society. I add these novels for the sake of completeness and don't particularly recommend them. They do allow for 'editing' so you might want to give them a try. There was also a story on this in Analog recently (within a year or two) -- I will search for it when I get home. Andy Vesper ------------------------------ Date: 7 Aug 84 5:40:40-PDT (Tue) From: hplabs!zehntel!dual!amd!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-mrvax!ddb @ From: Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Matter Transmitters Nick Graham's analysis of the strictly materialistic case is too simple, I think. Even without postulating a soul (not that there's any reason not to), it may be that a crude matter duplicator gets things pretty close to right, but doesn't quite reproduce all the subtleties of a real object (electric charge distribution? isomers?); this would still make it useful for gross objects, might make it useful for duplicating food (depending on the level of accuracy) and even complex electronics (since they get their state reset when power comes on), but perhaps not good enough to duplicate a living body and keep it living. This, of course, would lead a good percentage of the people in this hypothetical world to believe that the problem was with duplicating the soul or life-force or something, even though it would also prevent duplication of animals, which in Christian theology don't have souls. Let's see, doesn't Damon Knight's A for Anything deal with matter duplication? -- David Dyer-Bennet -- {decvax|ihnp4|purdue|allegra}!decwrl!rhea!mrvax!ddb ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 84 11:44:41-PDT (Sat) From: decvax!dartvax!davidk @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Matter Transmission Actually, in Venus Equilateral, the matter duplicator LOST the fight. It tossed very large snowballs with a catapult. They opposition noticed the regularity of the pattern, dodged it, and buried the operator under his own snowballs. All in all it is an amusing book. David C. Kovar USNET: {linus|decvax|cornell|astrovax}!dartvax!davidk ARPA: davidk%dartmouth@csnet-relay CSNET: davidk@dartmouth "The difficult we did yesterday, the impossible we are doing now." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 84 10:19:54 edt From: csin!cjh@cca-unix Subject: The Last Starfighter Computer-generated images: bah, humbug! So they did all sorts of things that can't be done with models? At least the models in other movies looked reasonably real. And what price absence of image degradation (from multiplied shots) when the image is unbelievably flat in the first place? It wasn't quite as noticeable with Centauri's car, but I got quite a jolt when they cut from the generated picture of a hangar full of fighters to a shot of people gathered around the base of one; all you could see was one leg of the ship but it was made the previous shot look terribly faked. I wasn't that happy about the rest of the film, either, but then I hated ET (I really don't like movies that are disgustingly obvious about trying to pluck the viewers' heartstrings), and tLSf is tolerable eyewooze for a Saturday night. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Aug 84 7:45:24-PDT (Mon) From: ihnp4!houxm!houxz!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!microsoft!fluke!moria From: rty @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Next SW film begins production Not being a standard reader of CINEFANTASTIQUE (in fact, I hear nasty comments about them from a lot of filmakers), how reliable is this information? The news itself is incredible, but hearing that Spielberg is involved, and digital animation.... Never thought I'd ever have anything nice to say about Linda Rondstadt! "This looks like a job for BICYCLE REPAIRMAN!" Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc. UUCP: {cornell,decvax,ihnp4,sdcsvax,tektronix,utcsrgv}!uw-beaver \ {allegra,gatech!sb1,hplabs!lbl-csam,decwrl!sun,ssc-vax} -- !fluke!moriarty ARPA: fluke!moriarty@uw-beaver.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 9 Aug 84 2:36:52-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!zehntel!dual!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian @ From: Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: BUCKAROO BANZAI There's a new sf/fantasy film being released this weekend called BUCKAROO BANZAI Just the other day I finished reading the novelization (by Earl Mac Rauch, who is the creator of Buckaroo and company and wrote the screenplay). Actually, I'm not sure that it classifies as a novelization any more than the book 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY by Clarke classifies as a novelization of the movie. Anyways, the book is terrific, and I recommend it regardless of how the movie turns out. It's a *very* strange book. The story is not an easy one to describe, nor is the general feel of the book. The best I can do is that it reads like a combination of Doc Savage, the Illuminati, and the Monkees. And then, it starts to get weird... What else can one say about a book that contains characters with names like Buckaroo Banzai, Reno Nevada, Rawhide, Big Norse, and Dr. Emilio Lizardo? Not to mention the hordes of Lectroids from Planet 10 (all of whom are named John), the Nova Police, the Oscillation Overthruster, the Hong Kong Cavaliers, the Blue Blaze Irregulars, or even the death dwarves. The only books that I've read that match BUCKAROO BANZAI in weirdness are the Illuminati books by Robert Shea and Robert Anton Wilson, and a novel by Jody Scott called PASSING FOR HUMAN. If you liked any of those, you're likely to like this. How good the movie will be depends on how well the director (W.D. Rich- ter, in his directorial debut --- he's previously been a screenwriter) can pull off the weirdness. If he can, it'll be a hit; if he can't, it'll be a bomb. Anyways, as I said, the book is definitely worth reading. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 9 Aug 1984 01:59:00-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Jerry Boyajian) Subject: Nyota Uhura & the Star Trek canon > From: Andrew D. Sigel > Subject: Star Trek -- Canon and Deadwood > Well, now Uhura HAS a first name. In Diane Duane's MY ENEMY, MY > ALLY, it is Nyota Uhura.... ...as far as I'm concerned, she's > Nyota Uhura, and I hope the next movie or movie adaptation > confirms it, because she's needed a first name for nearly 20 > years. Three cheers for Diane Duane. ...she gave Uhura a first > name... While I have no wish to denigrate the contributions of Diane Duane to the Star Trek universe, I feel obliged to point out that she was *not* the person who gave Uhura a first name. Giving credit where credit is due, it was William Rotsler. Back when STAR TREK II: THE WRATH OF KHAN was released, Simon and Schuster, owners of Pocket Books and thus the Star Trek publishing rights, published under their Wanderer Books ("juvenile") imprint three tie-in books, all trade paperbacks by William Rotsler. One was a collection of short stories, all taking place, if I remember correctly, while the *Enterprise* is returning to Earth from Genesis. The second was one of those ubiquitous "choose-your-own-adventure" interactive fiction books. The third was a series of biographical sketches of the various Trek characters. It was in *this* book that Uhura was given the first name Nyota. It is to Duane's credit that she acknowledged this contribution to the Star Trek mythos. BTW, the bio book is pretty awful in general. A good part of it is synopses of various episodes that had significance to the lives of one character or another. There are also numerous "excerpts" from non-existent books written about or by the various characters. The bibliography in the back is a scream if you can get all of the hidden references to real sf authors and big-name fans. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}! decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 13-Aug SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #155 *** EOOH *** Date: 13 Aug 84 1300-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #155 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 13 Aug 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 155 Today's Topics: Books - Delany & Gibson & Leiber & Piper & Matter Transmission (5 msgs), Films - Star Wars & Buckaroo Banzai (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - WorldCon & Trivia ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 9 Aug 84 10:14:00-PDT (Thu) From: ucbcad!kalash @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Delany's > "The Tides of Lust". How does one obtain a copy these days? I > understand it's out of print. Good bloody luck. In my years of collecting, I have seen exactly two copies of that "jewel". The one I got, I sold for $10, and that was five years ago. If it helps at all, it is a pink book, and was put out by lancer, and can on VERY rare occasions be found in used porno sections (that's where I found mine). Joe Kalash kalash@berkeley ucbvax!kalash P.S. I didn't like the book, but then I don't like Delaney. ------------------------------ Date: Thu 9 Aug 84 10:18:47-PDT From: PALEVICH%hp-labs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa Subject: "Neuromancer" review This is a recommendation for William Gibson's new book, "Neuromancer". If you like "Shockwave Rider", "True Names", "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", "Fire Ship", and the movie "BladeRunner", then you will probably like "Neuromancer", William Gibson's first SF novel. If you read Omni, you'll remember Gibson's two earlier stories, "Johny Mnemonic", and "Burning Chrome". His novel is set in the same world as his two short stories -- a world of urban violence and corporate empires, much like Alfred Bester's "Gulf"/"Golem 100". It's your classic "Heist" plot-line; the hero is hired to break into a computer, which he eventually does. But the author has a style of story telling that's like Varley at his best. Very visual; sensory. This book reads like a fever dream; I spent five hours straight on it. Lots of neat ideas, sexy violence and violent sex, with a satisfying bittersweet ending. Jack Palevich ------------------------------ Date: 9 Aug 84 23:55:43-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!lanl-a!unm-cvax!janney @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Leiber and paratechnomysticism I believe Fritz Leiber was the first to write stories based on the notion that people create gods appropriate to their environment and that these gods then forcefully demand worship. Thus, the high concentrations of people in cities create powerful gods appropriate to cities: generally rather unpleasant ones. Two of these stories are _Smoke Ghost_ and _The Hound_. Harlan Ellison's collection _Deathbird Stories_ is based on the same idea. Another novel by Fritz Leiber which I highly recommend is _Conjure Wife_, which deals with the practice of witchcraft in the anthropology department of a small college. As in _Our Lady of Darkness_, Leiber is able to sustain a mood of increasing suspense and horror for hundreds of pages, finally bringing it to a climax. Don't be put off by the packaging of the current Ace edition--it's not what it looks like. (Note to the people at universities: if you think you have trouble with department politics, you ain't seen nuthin' yet.) Jim Janney {{ucbvax,gatech}!unmvax, {purdue,lbl-csam,ihnp4!cmcl2}!lanl-a}! unm-cvax!janney ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Aug 84 20:15:32 PDT From: kalash%ucbingres@Berkeley (Joe Kalash) Subject: Piper Manuscripts > I have read that the proximate cause of his suicide (aside from > possible worship of Hemingway) was the news that the last part of > the magazine serialization that became LORD KALVAN OF OTHERWHEN > had been irretrievably lost by the Post Offal (apparently Piper > was the sort of person who believed that Real Men don't use carbon > paper). This turned out to be false, but by then it was too late. > . . . I have seen someplace between 4 and 7 Piper manuscripts, and they were ALL carbons (with various changes in Piper's hand). The currently "accepted" story is that he committed suicide because he thought he couldn't support himself writing, and had a moral repugnance against welfare. Joe Kalash kalash@berkeley ucbvax!kalash ------------------------------ Date: 6 Aug 84 15:47:05-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!bragvax!david @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Matter Transmission I don't think the economic effect of technological (non-magical) matter transmitters/duplicators would be very dramatic (especially when compared to the other effects). Energy would still be a useful/logical currency, and the economic situation would not be all that different. For example, only the wealthiest organizations would possess the (energy) capital to synthesize a new matter transmitter. It would take a great deal of wealth to even rent one. (Can you afford to rent an oil refinery for one day, much less construct one?) Of course, I may be wrong. I'm assuming that the efficiency of a generalized matter transmuter would be very low. Do I smell home cooking? It's only the river. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Aug 84 9:33:09-PDT (Sun) From: ihnp4!mhuxl!ulysses!burl!clyde!watmath!utzoo!utcsrgv!nick @ From: Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: U-Haul from the Milky Way to Andromeda. Somehow, this business of matter transmission and self-duplication seems to be one of those questions that keeps coming up. It would seem to me that the result of the exact physical duplication of a human being will be dependent upon what actually makes up a human being. Either you take a view that man consists of his physical component only, or else you take the view that in addition to man's material flesh and bones form, there is 'something else' that gives man his elevated place in the animal world. Elaboration: If you follow a strictly traditional evolutionary view, and say that man is just a collection of chemicals that has attained through evolutionary selection an illusion of consciousness, then fine: the exact duplication of every molecule of somebody's body will create a new, living human being. However, there is no reason to assume that this new being in any sense would provide a continuity for the original person should the original person cease to exist upon the creation of the duplicate. If you were to give me, say, a small wooden statue, I could meticulously copy every detail of it, and create a new statue that to all external tests would appear to be the same statue. However, if I were to burn your statue, I do not think that I could seriously claim that your statue still existed. Only one rather like it. If you believe that there is more to man than his physical form (eg, a soul), then simply copying the physical form is not going to be good enough. The crucial part, the soul is not going to be captured during the molecular-level transfer. This is a little more scary: imagine, a matter transfer takes place, the body is transmitted, the soul remains stranded outside the evaporated original host body, and a new, soulless body is assembled at the other end of the transmitter. The soul makes it's merry way off to the next world, but what happens to the body? If we follow the Christian religion, it is quite possible for a body to survive without a soul -- animals do it all the time. So do we, in one fell swoop, wipe out the souls of every person on earth? Sounds like a good 50's horror movie. All we need is a mad scientist... Anyway, that's about it as far as I can see. I don't claim to know whether a soul exists or not; however neither situation seems really thrilling to me. Guess I'll never walk into a matter transmitter. Nick Graham, University of Toronto ------------------------------ Date: 7 Aug 84 0:51:47-PDT (Tue) From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!shark!hutch @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: U-Haul (matter transmission) For an interesting analysis of matter transmission as a stored record phenomenon, see "Farthest Star" and "Wall Around A Star" by Frederick Pohl and Jack Williamson. This was collected as "The Saga of Cuckoo" by Sci Fi book club. It has all sorts of interesting ramifications. The transmitter does NOT transmit. It makes a copy. Energy and matter are fed in the receiver and reformatted into an exact copy of the item (however complex) in the sender. They did get into the moral and human implications of this. Ignore the ending, it seems to be more of their rather insipid techno-humanist crapola. The real story comes in the effects of this one new technology on all the races, and the whole Cuckoo thing merely provides a not-too-original not-very-plausible conflict to catalyze the action. Hutch ------------------------------ Date: 7 Aug 84 13:15:40-PDT (Tue) From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!andrew @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: U-Haul from the Milky Way to Andromeda. "The exact duplication of every molecule of somebody's body will create a new, living human being." Setting aside for the moment the transmission of the "soul", there's still the conflict with Heisenberg's thesis, which states [briefly] that you can't exactly determine both the position and the velocity of a subatomic particle. Without this information, you can't replicate the particle with its velocity. And, yes, I agree that this thesis may well prove to be surmountable, but some pretty heavy present-day theory rests on it. Anyway, it makes as much sense to cling to Heisenberg as to the Einsteinian anti-FTL claims ... Andrew Klossner (decvax!tektronix!orca!andrew) [UUCP] (orca!andrew.tektronix@rand-relay) [ARPA] ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 10 Aug 1984 05:12:59-PDT From: a_vesper%advax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: More on matter tranmitters and social effects Larry Niven, "A World out of Time" is Ballantine '76 (portions from Galaxy '71 and '76) Alfred Bester, @i(The Stars My Destination) was in Galaxy in '56, I found it in @i(A Treasury of Great Science Fiction, Vol 2), Anthony Boucher, Ed. Doubleday '59. George O. Smith, "Special Delivery" Astounding Mar '45 and "Pandora's Millions" Astounding June '45, both in @i(The Complete Venus Equilateral) Ballantine '76. Frederik Pohl and Jack Williamson, @i(The Farthest Star) Ballantine '75 and @i(Wall Around A Star) Ballantine '83. I haven't found the story in Analog I was looking for, but here is a consolation prize. Ray Brown, "A Change of Employment", Analog August '82. There is a sequel, far better than this story, but I didn't find it in the few minutes before leaving home this morning. I will continue searching. Andy Vesper ------------------------------ Date: 8 Aug 84 7:40:45-PDT (Wed) From: decvax!linus!utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!allegra!alice!td @ From: Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Next SW film begins production When I heard that this rumor had started at Cinefantastique, I discounted it immediately. This publication has an unaccountable grudge against Lucasfilm, and anything they say is suspect. Nevertheless, I checked the rumor out with two independent sources at Lucasfilm. While neither source is an ultimate authority (i.e. not George or Steven), both were people in positions where I would expect them to have definitive knowledge. Both sources denied any knowledge of any planned SW production. Neither could state certainly that a production would not be undertaken in the future, but for the moment it appears that nothing is in the works. (Note that neither source said that no SW movie was in the works, only that they knew of none. Presumably this doesn't include the already announced Ewok TV movie, due for broadcast in November.) ------------------------------ Date: 10 Aug 84 10:03:32-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!ut-sally!barnett @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: BUCKAROO BANZAI I've been seeing trailers for this movie on TV during the Olympics, and I noticed one thing that really intrigued me. There is a scene shown where some sort of craft comes crashing through a brick wall. On the brick wall, there's a painted billboard which says: YOYODYNE Yoyodyne was the corporation at the center of the web of intrigue generated by Thomas Pynchon in his novel "The Crying of Lot 49." Does anyone know if this was just a quote, or if there's some more concrete connection between Pynchon and Buckaroo Banzai? By the way, if you like weird, Pynchon is for you. Lewis Barnett,CS Dept, Painter Hall 3.28, Univ. of Texas, Austin, TX 78712 barnett@ut-sally.ARPA, barnett@ut-sally.UUCP, {ihnp4,seismo,ctvax}!ut-sally!barnett ------------------------------ Date: 10 Aug 84 14:10:25-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!guy @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: BUCKAROO BANZAI > On the brick wall, there's a painted billboard which says: > YOYODYNE > Yoyodyne was the corporation at the center of the web of intrigue > generated by Thomas Pynchon in his novel "The Crying of Lot 49." While we're on the subject, the original article mentioned "the Nova Police" as appearing in "Buckaroo Banzai"; I've not seen the movie (yet), nor read anything by William Burroughs (yet), but I remember the Nova Police mentioned as something from Burroughs' writing. It sounds like there's More to "Buckaroo Banzai" Than Meets the Eye... - all the more reason to catch it. (P.S. I second your comment on Pynchon.) Guy Harris {seismi,ihnp4,allegra}!rlgvax!guy ------------------------------ Date: 9 Aug 84 11:57:11-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!hao!noao!kpnoa!parks @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: WorldCon A previous message stated: > If you are going to be at L.A.Con and want more information on > location and time, send your electronic mail address to: > SF-LOVERS-PARTY-REQUESTS@MIT-MC I'm sorry, but I can't seen to send mail to an ARPA address. If anyone knows how, I would like to find out. In the meantime, yes I will be there so please add me to the lists. For some actual net-worthy comments: Is there going to be a computer room at worldcon (c'mon, there must be). If so, is there any way we can get a tie-in to usenet? A modem to a mainframe or perhaps a real micro like Lauren's running unix? What hard materials should be brought? Some ideas are: For us experienced netters: a complete transcript of the Hitch Hikers Guide to the Net hard copies of some of the best of net.jokes bibliographies and samples of good computer SF floppy disks (for people with personal computers) with your favorite programs for gift or trade maps to the net (is there a real US map with the links shown geographically?) For the novices, at the party or in the computer room all of the above listings of all the subject categories, net.* instructions on using readnews, vnews, or whatever is being run sample articles or controversies from some of the largest newsgroups (sf-lovers, micro, flame, etc) statistics on the number of messages and data flow through the net nndaily Well, those are some ideas. Let me know if I can help. Waiting for WorldCon, Jay Parks (decvax!hao!ihnp4!seismo)!noao!parks :uucp Kitt Peak National Observatory :U.S. Snail 950 N. Cherry, Tucson, AZ 85726 ------------------------------ Date: 10 Aug 84 18:31:20-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!akgua!jett!brian @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Brian Reynold's "Trivia" list I kept things simple in my first trivia posting to insure an adequate number of responses (and I might add, NOBODY has gotten more than 24 questions yet!). However, if you want it, give me a while to prepare it (I have several other things to do first, such as post my Zork spoiler to net.games) and I will come up with a REALLY DIFFICULT SF/Fantasy trivia quiz... -- Brian Reynolds {ihnp4|clyde|sdcrdcf}!akgua!jett!brian ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 13-Aug SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #156 *** EOOH *** Date: 13 Aug 84 1341-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #156 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 13 Aug 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 156 Today's Topics: Books - Crowley & Matter Transmission (3 msgs) & Book Request, Films - Buckaroo Banzai, Miscellaneous - Mavens ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 11 Aug 84 03:40:23 mdt From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley) Subject: Reviews of THE DEEP and BEASTS by John Crowley THE DEEP. John Crowley. Bantam, c1975; new edition 1984. BEASTS. John Crowley. Bantam, c1976; new edition 1983. It's taken me some time after reading John Crowley's ENGINE SUMMER and LITTLE, BIG to get around to investigating his earlier works. Both ENGINE SUMMER and LITTLE, BIG are fun books (although I incline more toward LITTLE, BIG, despite its mammoth size and occasional lapses into cuteness -- other people must have liked it too, since it won the World Fantasy Award). When an author has done so well with their current material, there's always a little hesitation for me in hunting up their older books; not infrequently a first novel that has dropped out of sight thoroughly deserved its fate, and reading it can spoil the taste of the other books. How many people have heard of Gene Wolfe's first novel, OPERATION ARES? After reading Harlan Ellison's comments, I've been afraid to even look for it... I was therefore very pleasantly surprised by THE DEEP and BEASTS. Both novels have been reissued by Bantam books with striking new covers by Yvonne Gilbert, part of the promotion for the mass market edition of LITTLE, BIG. Both books are well worth reading and I'm curious how I managed to avoid hearing about them for so long. BEASTS is the weaker of the two; it contains elements that prefigure both ENGINE SUMMER and LITTLE, BIG and can perhaps be regarded as a kind of transition book. Painter is a leo, a member of a breed that was created by fusing human and leonine genetic material using recombinant DNA techniques. The government of the US has crumbled and all that remains are petty 'autonomies' which struggle to maintain a semblance of authority. The leos have evolved their own alien culture living in the wild apart from humanity. When we meet Painter, however, he is on the run -- leos and other synthetic species have become undesirables under a new revival of the central government. How is it possible to persuade human beings to preserve something so unearthly as leos? The book investigates this problem at several different levels, from the experiences of humans in direct contact with leos to the incredibly tangled politics of xenophobia. Although the problem is not really resolved at the end of the book, it is still thought-provoking. Despite the occasional silliness of Crowley's assumptions (well, of course lion/humans act just like lions that think; well, of course leos can communicate telepathically with dogs, they're animals, aren't they?) and the jumpiness of the plot line -- some important events take place off stage, others are crammed together -- the book is worth reading for the quality of its writing and characterization. THE DEEP is full of beautiful images and is a surprisingly satisfying book; what an impressive debut this was... The title refers to the void which surrounds the world, from whose bottomless reaches rises the pillar of gleaming adamant that supports the circles of human existence, through whose limitless spaces the Sun must travel every night in order to return to its position in the East at dawn, and from which a mysterious traveler arrives on a day of battle. He is found injured; a sword has cut open his head and his memory has leaked out along with some of his curious blood. Thrust into the conflict between the Reds and the Blacks, two factions of the nobility who have perpetually struggled for supremacy, the Visitor must learn about the destiny of human beings before he can consider his own. It's hard to say much about the plot without saying too much, since it is very complicated, but one interesting aspect is the existence of the Just, who are a secret society whose purpose is to destroy the nobility and bring about the rule of Leviathan, whose technique is assassination, whose weapon is the Gun, a tool which despite its crudeness seems beyond the technological level of the otherwise feudal society. The 'answer' to the riddle of the world's existence, when it comes, is really amazing. I liked THE DEEP a lot and I can recommend it as being of a quality far superior to the current boring run of medieval fantasies. Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ Date: 9 Aug 84 11:14 EDT From: Garnaat.henr@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Matter Transmission The recent discussions re. matter transmission reminded me of a book I recently read. In "The Unteleported Man" by Phillip K. Dick, future Earth (i.e. post World War III) perfects a technique of matter transmission and uses it to shuttle colonists to an Earth-like planet some 18 lightyears away. Unfortunately the teleportation mechanism is under the control of a huge corporation whose motives, as discovered by the protaganist of the story, are evil and mercenary. Although I wouldn't say this is an example of a work "where the implications of the technology are taken to the fullest" as Mr. Martin was interested in, it does have an example of the kind of matter modification mentioned in the original message. In this case, the operators of the teleportation equipment are able to juxtapose the psyche of the teleported individual by overlaying their mind with false definition of reality, referred to as a "paraworld" by Dick. This notion of "paraworlds" and false realities provides a perfect backdrop for the kind of explorations of schizophrenia common in many of Dick's books. I found the book interesting and well worth reading, although the ending seemed a bit of a cop out. While on the subject of the ending, I would like to pose a question to anyone familiar with Dick's work. The book I have is a re-release (since his death, many of his novels have been re-released) and claims to have the "original, uncensored" ending which was supposedly left out of the original release for "commercial" reasons. My disapointment with the ending got me wondering about the original book. How does the ending differ? Or, better yet, any ideas on where I could find a copy of the original release? Mitch ------------------------------ Date: 10 Aug 84 23:20:15 PDT (Fri) From: Greg Finnegan Subject: matter transmitter > Jack Williamson & somebody else, @i(Wall Around a Star) and its > predecessor or successor. > > Matter transmitters are indeed duplicators. They are expensive > enough that there is (usually) one person per planet and so they > don't change society. I add these novels for the sake of > completeness and don't particularly recommend them. They do allow > for 'editing' so you might want to give them a try. The book is by Jack W. and Fredrick Pohl. But what makes the book interesting is the fact that only copies of the source are transmitted, that is, the object is not physically displaced. This becomes interesting when the person sends a copy of himself to some far off world. The copy would have the same physical characteristics (unless they decide to alter them), not to mention the same emotions, political beliefs, etc. This can lead to serious episodes with (ex?) loved ones and old friends. So what about bank accounts, taxes, and authorship -- does each copy receive credit, the copy and the original (since he was responsible for the copy in the first place), or just the copy himself?. And do copies need permission from the original to make copies of themselves (copyright infringement?); and what do you call each copy - John ver. 1.0, John ver. 1.1; and what about.... This may be the law practice of the future. Greg (finnegan@uci-750a) (I'm still waiting for a matter transmitter at my local ski resort - "what lift lines?") ------------------------------ Date: 9 Aug 84 8:50:28-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!eder @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Matter Transmission How about pursuing the idea that matter transmission/duplication is possible, but very energy intensive. An obvious figure is the energy content of the mass sent/copied, i.e. E=mc^2. The US electrical generating capacity is something like 6 grams/second. What cargo/product would justify that? This works out to roughly $14,000 a gram. A five carat (one gram) diamond just about is worth that much. Not much else is. Certain rare postage stamps, a few radioactive isotopes. Anyone have ideas on the consequences of this? Dani Eder / Boeing Aerospace Company / ssc-vax!eder ------------------------------ Date: 9 Aug 84 7:31:21-PDT (Thu) From: ihnp4!houxm!mhuxl!ulysses!allegra!down!eosp1!siemens!wws @ From: Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Trying to find a book... About 10 years ago I had a paperback science fiction short story anthology. I lost it and don't remember the title or any information about the book except for a couple of stories that I remembered, and then, I don't remember the titles of the stories. One of the stories was a kind of a mystery. It started out with a police investigation of a man in an apartment building dead with the window of his apartment broken with all the glass knocked inside the room. Then the scene flashed back and we saw the man alive. He had an elaborate doll house that he imagined the dolls were really alive. I won't spoil the story any more than to say that the man was God to the people in his doll house. Another story that I remember involved a transport mechanism to an alternate universe. The alternate universe was based on Mother Goose tales in all their gory details. It resembled a war zone only worse, and I think the people in the story ended up getting stuck their. A third story involved a space ship for faster-than-light travel. The traveler went faster and faster until he left our universe. In the process he was magnified trillions of times until he was bigger than the universe. What he found was that our galaxy was just an atom on a slide in some scientist's laboratory in an even bigger universe. The traveler ends up talking to the scientist and I don't remember much more about this story. I was pretty young when I read these stories and would like to re-read them to see how distorted my memories of them are. If you know the name of the anthology and its publisher, I would appreciate you sending by e-mail enough information for me to get a copy of the book. (I won't be reading news for a while, so if you post a response, I would appreciate being mailed a copy of the posting as well.) Bill Smith ihnp4!mhuxi!princeton!siemens!wws ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Aug 84 01:25:10 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: "Buckaroo Banzai" "Buckaroo Banzai" (more accurately, "The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai: Across the 8th Dimension") is a very strange film. As far as I'm concerned, strangeness is a point in a film's favor. I like films which are different, and this is what pleased me most about "Buckaroo Banzai". (They could probably make a pretty good comedy out of the meetings the creative folks had with the money folks, trying to explain just what they wanted to do.) This is a difficult one to summarize. There's this guy, Buckaroo Banzai (he's half Japanese). He's the world's greatest neurosurgeon and physicist. He and his equally intellectual pals also form a hot rock band, and save the world in their spare moments. This has made them tremendously popular with just about everyone. Buckaroo has just come up with a device called an overthruster, which allows him to travel through solid objects by going into a different dimension. Unfortunately, a much earlier experiment of the same kind screwed up badly. One of the participants in that experiment, a Dr. Emilio Lizardo, went insane, apparently. Actually, his body was taken over by an evil being from another dimension. More of these beings, exiled from their home dimension, are trying to build a craft to return to their home, so that they can take it over again. The folks in charge there think this is a bad idea, and will blow up the Earth, if necessary, to prevent it from happening. Who can save us? Why, Buckaroo Banzai, of course. The plot is so far off the wall that it really doesn't pay to try to delve into it in more detail. Suffice to say that a lot happens fast. "Buckaroo Banzai" is blessed with a very fine script, courtesy of Earl Mac Rauch, which moves quickly and always has a few surprises. Unfortunately, "Buckaroo Banzai" is a good example of how important a director is to a film. W.D. Richter had been a writer up to this point. This is his first directorial job. He isn't quite up to it. Now, don't get me wrong. Richter doesn't ruin the film, or anything. He's perfectly competent. However, he takes what had the potential to be a really fine film and fails in his assignment. He can't put across the script as well as it deserves. The action scenes never really thrilled me, and far too many of the neat throw away bits were obviously from the script. Nothing wrong with the script being inventive, but it's so much better if the director is, too. Richter has mixed results with the actors. Peter Weller plays the title role. He had two choices: he could underplay it or overplay it, since the part would never work at a realistic level. He chose underplaying, and perhaps went a bit too far in that direction. None the less, he looks comfortable in the part, so I can't complain too much. John Lithgow, who plays Dr. Lizardo, went in precisely the opposite direction, with splendid results. He plays it all with a juicy Italian accent and definitely steals the picture. (Lithgow has tremendous range. He went almost insane in "The Twilight Zone", and played a nice, normal guy in "Terms of Endearment". He played a Bible Belt preacher in "Footloose" and a transexual in "The World According to Garp". For my money, he's one of the most talented actors working in American films.) Jeff Goldblum has a lot of fun playing a brain surgeon who joins Buckaroo's team. He's ready for medicine, high tech, and rock and roll, but he hadn't figured on saving the world quite so soon. Some of the other actors playing Buckaroo's sidekicks are able to make themselves stand out. Some aren't. Ellen Barkin manages nicely as a girl Buckaroo saves from suicide and prison, especially since the script requires her to serve as one of the film's many intentional loose ends. I liked "Buckaroo Banzai" a lot, but it disappointed me, too. Unlike "Indiana Jones", or "Star Trek III", or "Gremlins", the script gave it a fighting chance to be really special. Instead, it just turned out different. Given the way things are in Hollywood nowadays, I'll settle for different. But, gee, I really yearn for special. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa {...ihnp4,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 9 Aug 1984 06:11:23-PDT From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (The Stainless Steel Rat) > From: Andrew D. Sigel > ...and Gerrold is one of the big ST mavens... I should guess that Mr Gerrold might take strong exception to being called a maven. A maven is the female counterpart of a master, ie a woman possessing surpassing skill. In fiction, the term is usually applied to those indulging in witchcraft, as in this bit: "...Falangor was called the mightiest of warlocks; he was master of the darkest of the black arts, and the people walked in fear of his wrath. And Alyssa his betrothed had learnt well of him, for she was his equal, a maven of terrifying power..." Cheers, Dick Binder (The Stainless Steel Rat) UUCP: { decvax, allegra, ucbvax... }! decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-dosadi!binder ARPA: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Summary-line: 14-Aug SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #157 Date: 14 Aug 84 1750-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #157 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 14 Aug 84 1750-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #157 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 14 Aug 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 157 Today's Topics: Books - Clarke & Joe Haldeman & Heinlein & Pynchon & Matter Transmission (2 msgs), Films - Buckaroo Banzai & Dune, Miscellaneous - The Star Trek Univers & Mavens (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 Aug 1984 09:16:08-EDT From: rachiele@NADC Subject: 2010 Having just read 2010 by Clarke, is he accurate when he describes the method of sling-shotting around Jupiter? He says you decelerate to lose velocity, to fall toward the planet. This sounds backwards to me. I would think you would need to increase the magnitude of your velocity, angling in the direction of the planet, to produce the hyperbolic orbit needed. Am I off the wall? Jim Rachiele ------------------------------ Date: Tue 14 Aug 84 04:16:48-PDT From: Bob Larson Subject: Book Review: Worlds Apart by Joe Haldeman Worlds Apart --- Joe Haldeman Ace Paperback: September 1984 $2.95 Isbn: 0-441-91072-6 (My how time flies, I thought it was still August.) Micro-Review: Ho-hum Mini-review: Not bad, but not great. Interesting Ideas not fully developed. Review: This book, a sequil to WORLDS, is a post world war 4 (or 3) novel centered on the surviving L5 type space station. Action takes place, but it happens to the main character more than being caused by the main character. It contains two separate plot lines that get further apart as the book continues. I do like Joe Haldeman's writing style, but this book reads like the middle book of a trilogy: much of the action taking place before the book starts and there is no solid ending. The original idea in this novel... a plague that kill everyone over about 20... is used more as a backdrop than anything else. This review probably makes the book sound worse that it is, but this certainly isn't Joe Haldemans best work. P.s. Which story is Rhysling from? I recognize all the other dedications. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Aug 84 2:20:10-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!tektronix!tekchips!vice!keithl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: New Heinlein Novel- Job: A Comedy of Justice JOB: A Comedy of Justice by Robert A. Heinlein $16.95 Del Rey/Ballantine Well, R.A.H. fans, welcome to a GOOD alternate world story. I won't reveal many details (the outragousness of them are much of the fun), but I'll tell you about as much as the blurb does: Alexander Hergensheimer is a fundamentalist minister and administrator for a "religious" group so repressive it makes Jerry Falwell look like "mister tolerance". This is the sympathetic character. Got that? The story follows the travels of A.H. through a number of alternate universes, as our hero gradually becomes a more decent fellow. Heinlein takes this opportunity to sketch out a number of small variations on the "alternate America" theme. Then he proceeds to romp all over various forms of christian mythology. Some pretty amazing things are depicted, in the very believable Heinlein style. This book is fun, loving, well written, and blasphemous. If you were created in the image of a humorless God, this book is not for you. If you are a humorless secular humanist, you may find the constant reminders of christianity politically unacceptable. If you want humor and a good story, buy the book! Keith Lofstrom uucp: {ucbvax,decvax,chico,pur-ee,cbosg,ihnss}!tektronix!vice!keithl CSnet: keithl@tek ARPAnet:keithl.tek@rand-relay ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 14 Aug 1984 01:03:35-PDT From: lewis%spider.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Suford Lewis) Subject: Thomas Pynchon I tried to start V. and The Journal of Albion Moonlight and found both to be full of pretentious, self-indulgent writing about silly, uninteresting characters. They might have claimed to be looking for "MEANING" but they were'nt looking very hard and they didn't really seem to want to find any. However, since I couldn't finish either, and both were relatively early works, perhaps someone can tell me why Pynchon is worth reading? - Suford ------------------------------ Date: 12 Aug 84 16:06:43 EDT From: Charles Hedrick Subject: Matter Transmission Dave Dyer-Bennet suggests that if matter transmitters can't transmit living beings, people might conclude erroneously that they have souls. As I recall, one of the papers in Computers and Thought [Feigenbaum and Feldman, eds] (I think the paper is by Minsky) suggested that if we ever succeed in producing self-aware computers, they will believe that they have souls. Although the article doesn't say so, there is at least the implication that people's belief in the soul may be a similar illusion. The problem is that it is impossible to watch ourselves thinking, so our own mental processes will always remain somewhat of a mystery, and seem to be apart from the physical world around us. That certainly sounds like an interesting starting-point for an SF story or two. Actually, both that paper and Dyer-Bennet's message to SF-LOVERS takes for granted a definition of soul that is no longer as widespread as it used to be. The classic treatment of this issue in Christian theology is Agape and Eros, by Nygren. Nygren (followed by many others) believes that the traditional way of looking at the soul owes more to the neo-Platonists than to the Judeo-Christian tradition. The neo-Platonists believed that the material universe is naturally evil. It was not even created by the Supreme Being directly. Human evil happens because our immortal souls have become trapped in material bodies. However when we die, our souls are freed and return to the realm of light. The Jewish view was quite different. It is best summarized by saying that Man does not *have* a soul, he *is* a soul. It is not a separate part of him, having a different nature. Nor is there a part of man that is immortal. Christian theology has to a large extent returned to this view. (Christians do not necessarily believe in the immortality of the soul. The creeds talk about "the resurrection of the body", which is quite a different thing.) I like to consider the soul as a process, with our body as the hardware on which it is running. This raises another interesting issue that I would like to see SF explore. If we succeed in creating an intelligent computer, at what point does it become murder to turn it off? Or is it enough if we store its current state on tape? (Perhaps turning it off in that case is not murder but kidnapping.) The issues are clearly analogous to those raised by the ability to store recordings of people. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Aug 1984 13:43:17 EDT From: Macintosh Devaluation Manager From: Subject: More on Matter Transmission The following are excerpted from The Science Fiction Encyclopedia, Peter Nicholls, ed. (1979): MATTER TRANSMISSION: The matter transmitter is one of several sf devices which though purporting to have a technological explanation, have the effect of being a pseudo-scientific analogue of various psi powers, in this instance teleportation. Both processes involve the instantaneous (or nearly so) transfer of a person or object from one place to another without apparent traverse of the intervening space. . . . [T]eleportation is defined as such transportation achieved by mental power, although the term is frequently used in contexts where the actual process is matter transmission, the mechanical accomplishment of such a journey. This confusion of terminology is evident in Larry Niven's article "The Theory and Practice of Teleportation" (1969), which is primarily concerned with matter transmission, and is otherwise a useful introduction to the various problems and paradoxes raised by this branch of imaginary science. The earliest use of the matter transmitter in sf is probably the horrific "The Man Without a Body" (1877) by Edward Page Mitchell. . . .Matter transmission is used for interplanetary travel in To Venus in Five Seconds by Fred T. Jane. Early Pulp examples are "The Secret of Electrical Transmission" (1922) by Clement Fezandia, "The Moon Menace" (1927) by Edmond Hamilton, and "Cosmic Express" (1930) by Jack Williamson. As the last example suggests, m.t. is primarily used in sf simply as a convenient transportation device, esp. for overcoming the problems of travelling interstellar distances. . . . Sometimes this involves the physical disintegration of the original body -- as in The Enemy Stars (1959) by Poul Anderson ... -- but more often this aspect is glossed over. In Joe Haldeman's Mindbridge (1976), the transmitter requires no receiver but its use is circumscribed by a "slingshot" effect. . . Matter transmitters are an aid to colonization of an alien world in Joseph L. Green's The Loafers of Refuge (1965), and are essential to the alien intrigues of Lloyd Biggle's All the Colors of Darkness (1963); these are typical cosmetic uses of the device. In Clifford D. Simak's Way Station (1963), there is a galaxy-wide network of matter transmitters of restricted range, like a railway system. . . . One interesting artifact developed from this notion is the 'House' in Today We Choose Faces (1973) by Roger Zelazny: a single, huge building whose various wings are actually on different worlds, joined together by matter transmitters. Larry Niven has himself written a number of stories based on the assumption of a m.t. which will revolutionize transport on Earth but will not work over interplanetary distances, . . . [including] "Flash Crowd" (1973), . . . "The Alibi Machine" (1973), "All The Bridges Rusting" (1973), "A Kind of Murder" (1974), and "The Last Days of the Permanent Floating Riot Club" (1974). In the opening chapter of Ringworld (1970), Niven describes how the existence of matter transmitters irons out differences between cities (as the existence of airports already does, to a limited extent). . . . An absurd but logical method of space travel using short-range matter transmission suggested in Niven's article is used humorously in Bob Shaw's Who Goes Here? (1977): a spaceship with a matter transmitter at the rear and a receiver at the front repeatedly transmits itself forward through itself. Other authors to have examined seriously the implications of matter transmission include John Brunner in Web of Everywhere (1974) and Harry Harrison in One Step from Earth (coll. of linked stories 1970). The recording of a signal which is then decoded by a receiver does not necessarily, in theory, involve the dissolution of the body being recorded. A matter transmitter can therefore be a matter duplicator. (There are many sf stories about matter duplicators which are not matter transmitters but presumably might be if a transmitted signal were substituted for the circuitry linking their two halves.) This idea provides the mechanism in Algis Budrys' Rogue Moon (1960), whereby the protagonist, having travelled by matter transmitter to the Moon, is able repeatedly to explore and be killed by a mysterious alien structure, while his other body on Earth, to which he is telepathically linked, learns from his successive deaths. [Note that Chalker's 'Four Lords of the Diamond' series derives from this mechanism, though w/o matter transmission.] An elegant variant is Thomas M. Disch's Echo Round His Bones (1969), in which a matter transmitter leaves behind an "echo" of anything which passes through it, undetectable and intangible in the "real world" but actual enough to other echoes. These stories address, indirectly, a problem which most m.t. tales gloss over: identity. M.t.'s are familiar devices through their use in films and TV series. "The Fly" and its sequels examine, in fairly simplistic terms, the possibility of the signal's becoming scrambled, with horrifying consequences. . . . In "Star Trek", m.t. (without a receiver being necessary) is used to transfer the crew of the Enterprise from orbit to a planetary surface and back, thus enabling the show to carry on without long pauses in the action. The creators of the 1978 British TV series "Blake's Seven" evidently thought this idea so firmly established with the audience that they adopted it without feeling any explanation was needed. [Based on the above approach, Bester's The Stars My Destination would not involve m.t., but rather psi powers; same for Blish's Jack of Eagles and similar novels.] ------------------------------ Date: 13 Aug 84 17:24:47-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!sdchema!djo @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: BUCKAROO BANZAI I saw Buckaroo Banzai last night and I was disappointed. What little I had heard about it intrigued me but often I felt rather bored. The dialogue at times seemed stiff, partially I think because they were trying to make the movie resemble a comic book but many times it just plain fell flat. The acting was not superlative with the exception of John Lithgow. He made a Dr. Lizardo come alive brilliantly. I loved the scenes of the 8th dimension and wished there were more of them. If these folks make another movie, as advertised at the end of this one, I will certainly give it a try. I think there is a lot of entertainment potential and they may get improve with the second film. If you like Sci Fi spoofs be sure to check it out. There are many funny scenes despite my own personal disappointment with it. P.S. I also wish there would have been more shown about Buckaroo's martial arts skill. Denise ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 1984 11:46:40 EDT ( TUESDAY ) From: Stephen R. Balzac Subject: Dune Could someone who has a copy of the hack cast for Dune, please send it to me? Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: 9-Aug-84 14:34:07-EDT From: decvax!ncoast!bsa@Berkeley (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #153 How about John Ford's THE FINAL REFLECTION? It can't really conflict with the ST universe because it revolves about a not-too-clearly-defined area of Trek: the Klingon Empire. In fact, Vonda McIntyre uses some things from it in the novelization of ST III ("Could it be that you believe the slanderous cant put about, that Kumburanya are in the ascendancy over Rumaiym?"). And it DOES clear up quite a bit about those funny-looking guys that grew ridges when we weren't looking.... Brandon Allbery: decvax!cwruecmp{!atvax}!bsafw: R0176@CSUOHIO.BITNET 6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, OH 44131 <> (216) 524-1416 "The more they overthink the plumbin', the easier 'tis tae stop up the drain." ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 84 02:18:41 EDT From: JoSH Subject: Maven Websters' defines "maven" (also "mavin" or "mayvin") as "n [Yiddish "meyvn", fr LHeb "mebhin"]: one who is experienced or knowlegeable: EXPERT" No mention is made of sex. In common usage in my experience, "maven" is used interchangeably with "expert". The word "master" derives from the Latin "magister" through the French, not Hebrew. The feminine form of "master" is "mistress". JoSH ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Aug 84 14:44:15 EDT From: Bob Clements Subject: "Maven" Cc: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.arpa Dick Binder says "A maven is the female counterpart of a master ...". I say "Foo". And my Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary agrees. It says: Maven or mavin n [Yiddish meyvn, ... fr Heb l'havin to understand](1952): one who is experienced or knowledgable Nothing about "female". /Rcc ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 16-Aug SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #158 *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Aug 84 1411-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #158 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 16 Aug 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 158 Today's Topics: Books - Campbell & Pynchon & Varley & Matter Transmission (6 msgs), Films - Metropolis & Buckaroo Banzai ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14 Aug 84 17:57 PDT (Tuesday) From: Hallgren.pa@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #149 In reply to Bob Clements "Old Book Request", the scene he mentioned is in "The Incredible Planet" by John Campbell, Jr. One of my high school favorites, and one of the original space operas. I interpreted the scene to mean that the inhabitants of the planets of that space didn't want any 'poaching' on their territory by relatively primative beings. Campbell never got around to taking Aarn & company back to that space, although he might have. This is the second of the Aarn Munro books written in the mid or early 30s', and my favorite space opera. The first book is "The Mightiest Machine" which has appeared as an ACE paperback. To the best of my knowledge TIP has never been put into paperback release. If there's anyone from a publishing house reading this distribution list, get this old wonder in print! Actually it is three stories in one volume 1) the Incredible Planet, in which our heroes return to our space and encounter a VERY old planet; 2) the Interstellar Search in which they try to find Earth and finally succeed with help; and 3) the Infinite Atom, where they are pressed into Earth's defense by some plausible enemies. If you like the Arcot-Wade-Morey books, (The Black Star Passes, Islands of Space, Invaders From The Infinite), or the E. E. Smith series this is as good, and the last major book before Campbell really took up the editing helm of Astounding/Analog. Clark H. ------------------------------ Date: Wed Aug 15 20:20:55 1984 From: mclure@sri-prism Subject: Pynchon; why read him? Pynchon is for the Pynchon groupies, no one else. I too tried to read some of his books and found them tiresome. He doesn't hold a candle to V. Nabokov or (when they are writing at full strength) H. Ellison & R. Silverberg. There are some mainstream authors too that he has trouble matching. I think certain authors tend to get overrated by the "college crowd" and then get "pushed" onto everyone else as "good" literature, when in fact they produce nothing more than the usual mundane stuff. Stuart ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Aug 84 20:10:46 EDT From: Morris M. Keesan Subject: Models for illustrations of Cirocco in TITAN Someone in a recent issue of SF-LOVERS commented that the illustrations of Cirocco in Varley's TITAN looked a lot like Cher, and wondered whether the author or artist had intended this. I wrote to Freff, the artist, asking him about this. His response was, "Interesting notion, Cher...but nothing that Varley ever said to me or that I ever thought." He goes on to say that Cirocco as drawn was modeled on two people, one whom he was visiting while reading the manuscript, "and aside from hair and skin color her features were an exact match for Varley's description." The other, the model for the body, was "the only six foot tall, slinky, essentially flat-chested ex-ballet dancer" he knew. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Aug 84 21:06:12-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: U-Haul from the Milky Way to Andromeda. "The exact duplication of every molecule will create a new human being." Or something like that. I've never agreed with this in connection with matter transportation. (Something like, is the Dr. McCoy on the planet the same Dr. McCoy who left the ship?) Matter and energy are, after all, completely equivalent. ("Yeah" for Albert Baby!) So, if McCoy's matter is converted to energy, radiated elsewhere, and reconvert to matter...it's the same McCoy - assuming the matter matrix is recreated exactly. Right? (please say yes, or I'll be crushed...) -- Rob MACC ------------------------------ Date: 10 Aug 84 20:58:26-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Matter Transmission Commenting (again) on the concept of putting a ham sandwich in one end of a transporter and pulling out gold bullion: The first thing that comes to mind is that it would be far "easier" to use a matter transporter for moving matter from point A to point B then it would be to use it for manipulating matter. Transportation would require a "simple" (hehe) scan of the subatomic structure of the thing being transported, and then based on this information, reconstruct the object from the energy wavefront. In order to create a "new" object from the "old" would require that you already had a subatomic "blueprint" to use. Also, matter can neither be created nor destroyed. Therefore, a ham sandwich would make a very small peice of gold bullion since it's density and atomic weight are less. Ah, but I'm full of spurious comments tonite... --- Rob DeMillo MACC "...I know engineers, they LOVE to change things!" ------------------------------ Date: 10 Aug 84 20:47:30-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: U-Haul from the Milky Way to Andromeda. Karl --- In the question of clones and immortality, I'd have to agree with Perlman. Selfness is not dependent on behavior. Because you have another entity with the same genetic pattern as yourself does not imply that this new entity is the same as yourself. Even if you could core dump what we embody with the term "mind" into the clone he/she/it would still not be you. The two of you would have the same "life experiences" up to and including the core dump, but you would no longer be sharing the same perspectives, etc... Philosphers and scientists have long debated what it is that actually comprises the "soul" of a being...chances are it doesn't depend on the hardware or the software so much as the firmware. The combination of the physical brain and the energy that the brain generates... Ah well, it was just an observation...I'll stop myself before I begin to ramble... --- Rob DeMillo MACC "...I don't know what this is, but it's pointing in your direction..." ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 14 Aug 1984 01:08:06-PDT From: lewis%spider.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Suford Lewis) Subject: Matter Transmission It seems to me that transmission of one's SELF becomes simplified if one has a soul. The physical part gets destroyed in one place and created in another. The "soul", being immaterial, is not bound by any laws to "be" anywhere in particular and simply IS in the new place after the transmiaaion. Mind you, I say this who once used to worry if I was the same "me" when I woke up in the morning as I had been when I went to sleep. I knew I had the same memories, but that didn't mean I was the SAME. It is the identical problem as with matter transmission, depending on what you think "consciousness" means, depending on what you think continuity of existence consists of. By the way, I never could decide whether I was the same "me" or whether I died every night when I went to sleep and a "new" me with the identical memories lived through each day. It is undecideable, so I decided to stop worrying about it. I gradually did. I think I was 8 when this problem occurred to me. It took me a couple of years to stop worrying about it. Varley has an interesting description of recording/duplication of people in Ophiuchi Hotline. People have themselves (whatever that is) recorded every so often. When they die (presumably by accident) they get "restarted" from a clone fed their most recent copy. In the story, the bad guys need more than one copy of our protagonist, so they make more. Each "reawakened" person tries to figure out what happened to their previous version so they canavoid similar problems. At the denoument, all the parts achieve a psychic union and have a perception of themself as a fourdimensional treelike structure. Nice idea. I'ld like to believe it. Is there a level of complexity that leads to the "program" continuing to exist after the machine breaks down totally? (I don't fancy the idea of God with piles and piles of old listings of every program He ever wrote... and what good would that be to me anyway? The listings aren't alive, the programs have to be running - consciousness as I know it requires the passage of time, the possibility of change, the flow of thought.) Well, it's all still undecideable, so we can amuse ourselves speculating to our hearts' content... - SUford ------------------------------ Date: 13 Aug 84 17:46:38-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!nsc!idi!kiessig @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Matter Transmission There are other implications of matter transmitters: 1. The 'original' matter must somehow be 'destroyed'. 2. Because of the large amount of energy present in matter (e=mc^2), it seems likely that matter transmitters do NOT in fact imply matter duplication, except perhaps at extremely high cost. In the normal case, it seems more likely that the energy obtained by 'disintegrating' the original matter would have to be used to recreate the object at its new location. I suppose it might be possible to use some other matter as an energy source, but only if the encoding and disintegration processes were seperable, which doesn't seem obvious to me. 3. Because of this, a more likely technology would not involve 'storage' of a 'pattern', but rather disintegration combined with simultaneous recreation at the receiving end. It seems unlikely that sufficient energy could be stored remotely to create any substantial amount of matter - the required energy would more likely be transmitted, along with pattern information. 4. I do think that a pre-cursor of a matter transmitter would have to involve controlled (i.e. non-radioactive) disintegration of matter - into some form of energy capable of holding information. I'm not sure which energy form is capable of passing the required amount of energy most efficiently. Lasers? Microwaves? 5. Another pre-cursor would have to be the creation of matter from energy. Has any theoretical work yet been done on that? The obvious problem is how to 'tell' the energy to condense into some particular molecular form, including specific bonding information. Sounds like a real messy problem. 6. Receiving stations would likely be accompanied by large power plants, because of energy transmission losses that would have to be made up if the original matter were to be exactly recreated. Rick Kiessig {decvax, ucbvax}!sun!idi!kiessig {akgua, allegra, amd, burl, cbosgd, decwrl, dual, ihnp4} !idi!kiessig Phone: 408-996-2399 ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 14 Aug 1984 05:35:35-PDT From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (The Stainless Steel Rat) Subject: Re: Matter transmission/duplication > From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!eder @ Ucb-Vax.arpa > How about pursuing the idea that matter > transmission/duplication is possible, but very energy intensive. > An obvious figure is the energy content of the mass sent/copied, > i.e. E=mc^2. The US electrical generating capacity is something > like 6 grams/second. What cargo/product would justify that? This > works out to roughly $14,000 a gram. A five carat (one gram) > diamond just about is worth that much. Not much else is. Certain > rare postage stamps, a few radioactive isotopes. > Anyone have ideas on the consequences of this? The obvious conclusion that I'd draw from the theory that matter trnsmission/duplication is energy intensive is that the dissolution of the transmitted object at the transmitting end of the link would provide most, but clearly not ALL, of the energy required for transmission. Now this energy would obviously not be available at the receiving end, but a reasonable facsimile thereof would be, from the last object that was sent from there. If we limit the masses transmitted to the same amount, ie one person plus some amount of ballast to make all the transactions workout roughly the same, then energy becomes a non-problem. Sure, there is a lot of it to cope with, released in very short order, but any society that has a matter transmitter will have solved the problems of handling huge amounts of energy. Perhaps storing it as some form of proto-matter, eg all loose quarks, to be drawn from as needed... Cheers, Dick Binder (The Stainless Steel Rat) UUCP: { decvax, allegra, ucbvax... }! decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-dosadi!binder ARPA: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Wed 15 Aug 84 00:22:58-EDT From: Peter G. Trei Subject: METROPOLIS There is a new release of Fritz Lang's METROPOLIS out. This is good news and bad news. The good news is that many segments which were cut out of the original English-titled version have been restored, or at least attempts made to restore plot continuity thru the use of stills from lost segments and extra titling. I would estimate that about 10-15 minutes have been added to the film, with a considerable increase in comprehensibility. The bad news is the sound track: Giorgio Moroder probably thought he could bring in a whole new audience with heavy metal music and songs by himself and Pete Bellotte, as performed by Cycle 5, Pat Benatar, Billy Squier, Jon Anderson, Adam Ant, Bonnie Tyler, Freddie Mercury, and Loverboy. I must admit the New York audience cheered at the end, but I felt that I had seen a great masterpiece ruined. If it were not for the promise of the restored sequences, both I and my companion would have walked out. It made both of us very angry. Classic silent films, at least to me, are somewhat dreamlike; there is little or no color (this version successfully uses tinting to evoke mood, and occasionally two colors in a scene), and the action seems sometimes enigmatic. In METROPOLIS, the actors make heavy use of facial expression and body english (german?) to get their intentions and feelings across; in this version, the actors' intents and moods are telegraphed far in advance by the music and (very saccharine) songs, so the actors seem to be hamming it up, and many times caused audience laughter during the most intense scenes. See this version if you are an SF film completest; otherwise, try to see an older version, or better yet, wait till the video tape comes out and watch that.... with the sound off. Peter Trei ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 84 2:31:21-PDT (Tue) From: hplabs!zehntel!dual!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian @ From: Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: re: re: BUCKAROO BANZAI Well, the Nova *Mob* shows up in a couple of William Burroughs' books. I think that Earl MacRauch's use of the Nova Police and Yoyodyne are tips of the hat to both Burroughs and Pynchon. I wouldn't be surprised if there are some other hidden references in there, too. jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}! decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 16-Aug SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #159 *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Aug 84 1514-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #159 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 16 Aug 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 159 Today's Topics: Books - Dick & Heinlein & Piper & Matter Transmitters (3 msgs), Films - Buckaroo Banzai & Dreamscape & Star Trek ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 14 Aug 84 12:48:45 mdt From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley) Subject: Re: Matter Transmission (and Dick's THE UNTELEPORTED MAN) From Garnaat.henr@Xerox.ARPA: While on the subject of the ending [of THE UNTELEPORTED MAN], I would like to pose a question to anyone familiar with Dick's work. The book I have is a re-release (since his death, many of his novels have been re-released) and claims to have the "original, uncensored" ending which was supposedly left out of the original release for "commercial" reasons. My disapointment with the ending got me wondering about the original book. How does the ending differ? Or, better yet, any ideas on where I could find a copy of the original release? Mitch Coincidentally, the August LOCUS (#283) has a review of yet another version of THE UNTELEPORTED MAN, this one titled LIES, INC. and published by Gollancz in the UK. Here is what Dan Chow has to say (yes, copied without permission, etc.): (deleted) Sounds like Gollancz did it right. I wonder if this edition will ever appear in paperback on this side of the pond? Coincidentally again, the same issue of LOCUS has a letter from Tessa B. Dick complaining about the editorial practices of Berkley in putting together their edition of THE UNTELEPORTED MAN... Finally got around to A MAZE OF DEATH, starting soon on DR. FUTURITY, Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 15 Aug 84 09:54:51 EDT From: Alexander B. Latzko Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #157 Unless my knowledge is very mistaken Rhysling shows up in at least two stories by RAH. To wit, "The Green Hills of Earth" and " Time Enough for Love". The character is a totally optically impaired ( not blind, just without optical ability) space tramp who was at one time an engineer on a space liner. At the time we meet him he was living by singing in bars and cafes ( as well as an occasional bordello) and being a philosopher. hope this helps , alex ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Aug 84 07:42 PDT From: Hank Shiffman Subject: Fuzzy Sequels My reaction to Fuzzies And Other People was similar to that of Mr. Duntemann, particularly having read the two recent Fuzzy books by other authors: Fuzzy Bones by William Tuning and Golden Dream by . Fuzzy Bones managed to succeed exactly where Piper failed. Tuning expanded the story in one major way (explaining the Fuzzies' need for titanium on a titanium-poor world) and moved characters along in other ways. To me, the book was a modest success, both as a pastiche of Piper's childlike writing style and as an explainer of some of the peculiarities of Piper's scenario. Now if only Piper had done so well... Of course, Piper was not one to worry too much about inconsistencies or biological improbabilities. In the original story Gunpowder God, he had humans mating (both naturally and successfully) with members of an alien humanoid (human-looking but NOT human) race. I believe it was John Campbell who caught him on this and suggested that he turn the story into a Paratime tale (which became Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen). Hank Shiffman Symbolics, Inc. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 1984 10:58-PDT From: Tom Wadlow Subject: Matter transmitters with no soul Imagine, a matter transfer takes place, the body is transmitted, the soul remains stranded outside the evaporated original host body, and a new, soulless body is assembled at the other end of the transmitter. The soul makes it's merry way off to the next world, but what happens to the body? If we follow the Christian religion, it is quite possible for a body to survive without a soul -- animals do it all the time. So do we, in one fell swoop, wipe out the souls of every person on earth? We may not wipe them out, they may just hang around. Talk about a plot for Ghostbusters II!!! -- Tom "I ain't 'fraid of no bugs...." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Aug 84 09:18 PDT From: trainoff.pasa@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Matter Transmitters and Duplicators Matter transmitters do not necessarily have to be matter duplicators or matter transmutters. The common every day examples of information transmission, such as radio and television broadcasts, Xerox machines, stereo recordings, computer storage, etc., have the property that the copying is not a destructive process. That is to say, you can record music and make a copy without destroying the original. The same may not be true for a matter transmitter. It may be necessary to destroy the object to record its data. As far as the matter transmuting goes, does a Xerox machine have to transmute air into ink? Simply accumulating the data would be a monumental task. It might not be necessary to make an EXACT, identical copy of something to retain its essential charateristics. I define essential characteristics to include, form, total mass, viablity of living creatures, memory and personality of sentient creatures. It is very unlikely that a single electron having its spin flipped will effect the overall personality of a duplicated person (Who knows? Would that make a person flip out? (sorry)) Now, to just get an idea of how much information we are talking about let us ignore things like electron spins, excited electronic and nuclear states, etc. and try just to duplicate the correct atoms in a human. I am going to make a few unrealistic assumptions to do a top of the head calculation (an order of magnitude in the order of magnitude will be fine (think about that for a moment)). An average person masses around 65 kilograms, round off to 1e5 g. A human is mostly composed of hydrogen, oxygen, carbon, and nitrogen. Let us assume that they are in roughly equal amounts by number (they aren't, but it should be close enough). They have an average atomic weight of around 10 g/mole. Avogadro's number (6.02e23 atoms/mole) can be rounded to 1e24 atoms/mole. So we have on the order of 1e28 atoms. For a given person, assume that each atom is one of the four I have mentioned. In terms of the binary storage, each position requires 2 bits for each atom so we have 2e24 bits. Now recall that this is a terribly gross underestimate of the total amount of information stored in the wavefunction of a person. The true wave function would also have to include information on the positioning, velocity, etc. of each subatomic particle. The true quantum state must include interactions between all of the particles, so it probably scales as the factorial of the number of the particles. So in some sense my order of magnitude is probably too small by many, many of orders of magnitude. As, just a guess, it doesn't seem too unreasonable to say a human might require more than 1e100 bits of total storage. I just picked that to defy anyone trying to envision a computer storage that could store 2e24 bits. 2e24 bits is almost conceivable, 1e100 is not. Now it is quite conceivable that a device that attempted to duplicate the exact quantum state of human would not be able to store all of the information that it is transmitting to a receiving station. A good example of this type of information device is a television camera. It is quite believeable that a handheld video camera could take more data than it could store. I know, you could always buy a video tape recorder, but conceptually, it is ridiculous to assume that any device be able to store as much information as it can aquire. In addition, since it appears very unlikely that we could ever make enough computer storage to store an object, it seems even more unlikely that we would ever be able to process the data. (Have you ever tried to take a FFT of a big array? It scales as n*log(n). 1e102 is a mighty big number. (Well just take 1e102 processors in parallel and....)) Then there is the problem of the data transmission. It is going to take a while. Assume that a matter transmitter is built which solves the storage problem. How would you like to hop into it, press the button ("Press the button, Max!"), and arrive just in time to watch the universe fold up in the Big Crunch? Sounds like a neat one way time machine. This entire diatribe has also ignored one minor detail; the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. I addessed the data storage problem. This point is academic since we can't accumulate the data in the first place. From the fallible, flailing fingers of Steve "I just couldn't resist any longer" Trainoff Xerox Special Information Systems 101 N. Halstead, Pasadena CA. 91106 ------------------------------ Date: 15 Aug 1984 16:03:19 EDT ( WEDNESDAY ) From: Stephen R. Balzac Subject: Matter Transmission Another story dealing with Matter Transmission is Players of Null-A and World of Null-A by Van Vogt. His matter transmitters do not create duplicates, or disassemble the subject, but rather work on the principle of similarity: if you make the starting point A similiar enough to the destination point B, then an object at A will move to B, the amount of time involved depending on how close the similarity is. While the principle is not the most accurate, it does enable a society to exist without having any of the cultural problems involved in matter transmission. A comment from ST: In the novelization of ST III, there is a line to the effect that only groups such as StarFleet can make use of a transporter. It's far too expensive for commercial use. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Aug 84 14:52:30-PDT (Wed) From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!grw @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: BUCKAROO BANZAI First read the book. Then see the movie. Don't buy the Marvel adaptation, the artwork is lousy. The book is serious and funny. The movie isn't quite so serious or funny as the book. Buckaroo Banzai is (I hope) going to be the next James Bond, with a string of movies as long as your arm. The development of the supporting characters still needs a bit of work, though. Casting gets a 12 (out of a possible 12) in my book. Peter Weller pulls off the very difficult task of being Buckaroo Banzai. John Lithgow, who I am convinced could play any role in the world, does just fine as Emilio Lizardo/John Whorfin. The guy from TAXI and Star Trek III, whose name escapes me, plays an alien yet again, this time the avaricious John Bigboote'. (All the aliens are named John in this movie, but some of the last names bare mentioning: John Ya Ya John Repeat Dance John Small Berries John O'Connor John Ready to Fly and others. This movie could have been better, but not much. Expect to see Buckaroo Banzai posters, dolls, comics, saturday morning kid shows, basketballs, neckties, stained glass windows, and OSCILLATION OVERTHRUSTERS in your toystores soon. And remember that, no matter where you go... there you are. -Glenn ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Aug 84 10:49:14 EDT From: Dave Mankins Subject: Dreamscape Saw ``Dreamscape'' last night. A wonderful science-fiction movie speculating on what would happen if a psychic could enter into a person's dreams (as a participant). Stars Dennis Quaid (one of the astronauts in ``The Right Stuff''), Max von Sydow, and Kate Capshaw (gosh, she really can act, not just scream helplessly, what a pleasant surprise). The dream sequences are especially good, with just the right amount of eerie-dreaminess to them. The characters are good and believable, and the events of the movie, given the premise of "dream-linking", are good. In fact, having seen the movie, I can recall very few flaws, and thinking about the movie afterward, I haven't thought, "Why did they have to do that? Why didn't they just..." And the best part: NO CUTE FURRY CREATURES WITH BIG EYES. The characters in this movie earn your adulation (or distaste) instead of coming with handy labels of "good guy" or "bad guy". There is a cute kid, but he has a real problem, and he's only around to establish the character that Dennis Quaid plays. Go see it. Show those Hollywood executives that a real SF movie can do well. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Aug 83 20:52:47 EDT From: Jaffe@RUTGERS Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!! The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the movie "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock". People who have not yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following message. Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) ------------------------------ Date: 7 Aug 84 12:12:04-PDT (Tue) From: decvax!genrad!security!wdr @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Kirk's future with Starfleet >From: Paul Schauble Kirk's future with Starfleet isn't necessarily as bleak as some >people suggest. Remember that in any Navy that ever has existed >(and presumably, ever will exist) rank and promotion at the command >level depends in large part on political influence. > In this case, it is quite likely that Kirk will have the >Vulcans in his corner, as welll as some of the other races he and >his crew helped at various times. Starfleet may not like it, but it >is quite possible they will find the most expedient thing to do is >to gloss over the whole incident. After all, Kirk's action kept a >potentially devastating weapon out of the hands of an implacable >enemyy [sic] of the Federation. D*** straight! The Vulcan Ambassador, no less, personally benefitted. If the theft was never leaked to the press, their should be no problem. On the other hand, if the press is out for blood, Kirk & Sarek may be jointly sacrificed. But "The Adventure Continues". It wouldn't be the first time Kirk has been [almost?] court-martialed. But how can ILM get any business on a Politics & Legal movie? William Ricker wdr@mitre-bedford.ARPA (MIL) wdr@security.UUCP (UUCP) decvax!genrad!security!wdr (UUCP) {allegra,ihnp4,utzoo,philabs,uw-beaver}!linus!security!wdr (UUCP) Opinions are my own and not necessarily anyone elses. Likewise the "facts". ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 20-Aug SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #160 *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Aug 84 1130-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #160 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 20 Aug 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 160 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Dickson & Heinlein & SF Porn & Sequels & Matter Transmission (4 msgs), Films - Metropolis & The Last Starfighter & Star Trek (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 Aug 84 19:02:19-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!chris @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: FINALLY! -- and -- *Bearing an Hourglass* Just finished *Bearing an Hourglass*, by Piers Anthony. Nano-Review: Good, but not quite as good as *On a Pale Horse*. Micro-Review: Typical Anthony style. Main character is Norton, a guy who likes wilderness and likes to ``see the other side of the mountain, even if it's artificial''. The book contains the (now standard) Author's Note (see if you can find the(?) pun in(?) it - I thought it was a typo at first) which explains that while writing this book about Time, Anthony was pressed for time himself. I'm afraid it shows a bit. But it is still a good book. I'm not sure what else I can say here without creating a spoiler. I'd have to reread it first. Anyway, if you like Anthony's fantasy, you'll like *Hourglass*. (By the way, don't take the ``now standard'' the wrong way: I *like* the Notes.) (Argh, I really want to say something but I'm afraid it would constitute a spoiler. ) *** SPOILER WARNING *** I wish he had somehow incorporated a ``waste of time'' conflict into the book. The statement he makes in the last paragraph or two of the Author's Note ought to be made somewhere in the novel. Perhaps the third ``inner fantasy'' (the one with both Bat Dursten and the Alicorn and the others) constituted one such statement to some extent, but if so, I don't think it was quite strong enough. Also, *Horse* had some really nice internal and external struggles; *Hourglass* seemed to lack the internal ones. Oh well, maybe I missed something this time through. In-Real-Life: Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci (301) 454-7690 UUCP: {seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@maryland ------------------------------ Date: 9 Aug 84 7:37:09-PDT (Thu) From: decvax!genrad!security!bs @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Dickson's 'Final Encyclopedia' I recently saw a Doer's White Label ad touting Dickson's latest work 'The Final Encyclopedia'. So where is it? Does anyone know when it will appear? Dickson has published excerpts from it [as long as 2 years ago!] ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 16 Aug 1984 16:09:39-PDT From: kovner%regina.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: SF-LOVERS 'who ius Do you mean you never heard of Rhysling, the Blind Singer of the Spaceways? A man known on more worlds than Michael Jackson? If you haven't heard of him, read the short story "The Green Hills of Earth" by Robert Heinlein. (It must be in print in some Heinlein collection.) It is somewhat dated, but still one of my favorite SF stories, and the story that might have made me an SF-Lover... Steve Kovner (The tone-deaf singer of the Earthways?) "I pray for one last landing On the globe that gave me birth. Let me rest my eyes on fleecy skies And the cool, green hills of Earth." UUCP:{ decvax, allegra, ucbvax }!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-regina!kovner ARPA:kovner%regina.DEC@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Tue 14 Aug 84 23:59:33-EDT From: Peter G. Trei Subject: Tides of Lust, et al.. This is an extract from a much longer review of SF porn I did some time ago, but the subject had died down by the time I finished, so I did not post it. TIDES OF LUST, by Samuel Delany. This is a non-SF work, and describes the experiences of a black sea captain and his 'crew' during a layover in a small Gulf Coast town. Heavily into homosexuality and violent sex, it sometimes reads like a dream of racial revenge. The sex in here is not pretty, but the literary style is miles ahead anything else I will mention, drawing heavily on the legend of Faust. ISBN # 0861300165 1.50 pounds THE GAS, by Charles Platt. This has a minor SF element: An explosion at a secret biowarfare research station in the SW of England causes the release of a gas which causes people to loose their normal 'civilized' inhibitions, while boosting their levels of sexual hormones. The gas blankets southern England, and as civilization collapses around him in a nationwide orgy, one man trys to escape from the affected zone with his family (until they too fall to the gas). While the sex here is highly erotic, the overall tone of the book is misanthropic in the extreme. The author simply does not seem to like people, and consistantly tries to show them at their worst. (By the way, this is the same author who mounted a campaign to get BATTLEFIELD EARTH onto the Hugo ballot. THE GAS is quite specific at one point about denigrating SF fans.) THE GAS was originally published in 1970 by the Ophelia press, a raunchier offshoot of the Olympia press which published high quality porn. Both TIDES OF LUST and THE GAS were recently reprinted in trade paperback editions by Savoy Books, a small English publisher. There was an attempt in England to ban the latter book. The Savoy edition of THE GAS has an introduction by Philip Jose Farmer. ISBN # 0861300238 1.50 pounds The address I have for Savoy Books is: Savoy Books Ltd. 279 Deansgate, Manchester M3 4EW, England TIDES OF LUST I found at The Science Fiction Shop, and THE GAS at Forbidden Planet, both in New York City. The SF Shop is particulary good for obscure or very new books; they have already had JOB by RAH for a couple of weeks (yes, I've read it). Peter Trei ------------------------------ Date: 10 Aug 84 19:02:19-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!chris @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: FINALLY! -- and -- *Bearing an Hourglass* Jeff Duntemann put it pretty well, but I'd like to add that (I think, at least) what he said near the top of the message was more important than what he said near the end. It isn't ``sequels'' that are bad, it's lack of new developments. A mechanical way of deciding whether a ``sequel'' is ``interesting'' that works fairly well is: does it have a different central character? If so, it probably has a different conflict and/or resolution. (It usually helps if the time frame is different, too.) Also note that things that are labeled as sequels are not necessarily so; it seems to be an editorial device to sell books. In-Real-Life: Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci (301) 454-7690 UUCP: {seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@maryland ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 84 21:41:40-PDT (Tue) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!chris @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: More on Matter Transmission Some interesting thoughts on matter transmission can also be found in some of Piers Anthony's novels (in particular the Cluster series and the Tarot trilogy). In one of the Tarot books Brother Paul has a rather odd experience during the mattermission . . . or does he? The transmission is supposed to be instantaneous. How, then, can he be cogitating on the experience as it happens? The world may never know. (Oops, sorry, wrong commercial :-) ) (By the way, I happen to dislike the Tarot books personally; I haven't reread them even once. But then again I did find them intriguing enough to buy all three.) In-Real-Life: Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci (301) 454-7690 UUCP: {seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@maryland ------------------------------ Date: 16 Aug 1984 09:38:57-EDT From: carol at mit-cipg at mit-mc Subject: Matter transmission Michael Kurland wrote a very funny short story which examined several possible problems with m.t. during its early development. The story is called "Small World", and I have it in a paperback short story collection called "Two Views of Wonder". In it, such problems as one guy going in and two coming out (at different destinations), a person whose amino acids are all switched right- handed for left-handed so he can't digest Earth food anymore, and a wife who sues the company because her husband emerged from the transporter without a soul, are raised. Some problems are solved (like the problem of Arabs who go to San Francisco, eat at a posh restaurant and then recite the phrase 'Ay Kan-nod Pai'so that they can spend two weeks of luxury eating prison food). The man whose soul got lost in transit is declared a found object, therefore chattel of the M.T. company. Other problems are left unsolved. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Aug 84 16:14:03-PDT (Wed) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!lanl-a!unm-cvax!janney @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: More on Matter Transmission (Nicholls encyclopedia) A minor error in the Nicholls encyclopedia: > Larry Niven has himself written a number of stories based on the > assumption of a m.t. which will revolutionize transport on Earth > but will not work over interplanetary distances, . . . [including] > "Flash Crowd" (1973), . . . "The Alibi Machine" (1973), "All The > Bridges Rusting" (1973), "A Kind of Murder" (1974), and "The Last > Days of the Permanent Floating Riot Club" (1974). The stories do involve interplanetary travel, and even interstellar travel. Since the m.t. conserves energy and momentum, you have to be careful about where you go: transmitting from one of the poles to the equator will leave you with a difference in velocity of about 1000 mph, not the most pleasant way to arrive. Similarly, changes in altitude consume or release energy. "All The Bridges Rusting" involves the problem of using a m.t. based ship to rescue a conventional (interstellar) rocket that is traveling at 1/7 the speed of light: getting there is easy, but what do you do about the tremendous difference in velocity? Naturally, an ingenous solution is found. Jim Janney {{ucbvax,gatech}!unmvax, {purdue,lbl-csam,ihnp4!cmcl2}!lanl-a}! unm-cvax!janney "Slowly, an icy clam descended upon him" (glom) ------------------------------ Date: 17 Aug 84 12:42:58 EDT From: Don Provan@CMU-CS-A Subject: matter transmission no! if you copy all the contents and spins and states from one place to another, you do NOT have the same object: you have a perfect COPY of the object. the "me" here, my consciousness, will NOT be transmitted, it will be DUPLICATED. even though no one will be able to tell the difference, thus making it a "transmission" to the scientist, *I*'ll be dead, dead, dead. i'm glad this isn't going to come up in the near future, 'cuz i'm sure i'd be ridiculed just like people who didn't think Man should fly, but it seems obvious to me that getting in a matter transmitter would be fatal. it really makes me understand how those people feel who refuse to fly even though all their friends keep saying "look at me: i flew and it hasn't hurt me a bit." so enough of this line. if you want matter transmission, you have to do it using space/time warps. obviously with a space/time warp, you don't get playback. so matter transmission does not imply infinite duplication anymore than FTL does. now if you ask me again tomorrow morning.... ------------------------------ Date: Thu 16 Aug 84 22:53:35-EDT From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: Metropolis Most reissues of Metropolis contain the original cuts (a demonstration that the absence of a thing is as real as its presence?) The main victims are the introduction, which shows a '30s view of Olympic training, replete with overt Naziism and repressed homosexuality; and the erotic dance of the golem (Brigitte Helm). American censors usually removed another sequence, in which a giant machine (Capitalism) is seen as Moloch devouring helpless humans (Labor) [ First Amendment? - a mere piece of paper, Herr President ]. If you get the chance, SEE an uncut Metropolis. The sound-track problem is susceptible to a technical solution - take ear muffs! ------------------------------ Date: 15 Aug 84 21:27:00-PDT (Wed) From: ihnp4!inuxc!iuvax!apratt @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: The Last Starfighter I would like to add something to this excellent review of TLS... The movie gave itself away to me when Robert Preston (playing The Music Man again) was driving the "car", and, for no apparent reason, took off his human mask. It was gratuitous make-up stuff; there was no motivation for the character to do what he did when he did it. That made me realize that the movie was cheaply put together through and through, and it wasn't likely to get any better. Nice graphics, no plot, white bread characters, but boy, that Cray X-MP sure could crank out those frames... -- Allan Pratt iuvax!apratt ------------------------------ Date: 8 Aug 84 6:52:25-PDT (Wed) From: decvax!genrad!security!jjg @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #150 as I recall, the tombstone in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" said "James R. Kirk", not "James T.". /jeff ------------------------------ Date: Thu 16 Aug 84 23:10:32-CDT From: R E Boyd Subject: Star Trek episodes I seem to remember a guide to the Star Trek series, something like a paragraph about each episode? Any help in locating this list is appreciated, thanks, reb [Moderator's Note: This is available via the ANONYMOUS logon of FTP in the SF-LOVERS archives here at Rutgers. The directory name is T:. Also available are the following: Outer Limits Episode Guide Twilight Zone Episode Guide Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Net ] ------------------------------ Date: 24 Aug 83 20:52:47 EDT From: Jaffe@RUTGERS Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!! The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the movie "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock". People who have not yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following messages. Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 84 12:47:00-PDT (Tue) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!convex!ayers @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Court Martial? - (nf) Or how about the old standby that saves face for all: We are announcing that Kirk and crew were on secret mission all along. or didn't you see the FIRST cloaking device story????? blues, II ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 17 Aug 1984 09:51-EDT From: wesm@Mitre-Bedford Subject: Kirk's future - Trek III Personally, I feel that if there is a Trek IV, much of what happens to Kirk will (or should) be centered on the loss of what I feel (personal opinion folks) was the real star of the series, the Enterprise. If we all recall all the series in which Kirks life was centered (especially emotionally) around the Enterprise. I feel her loss was downplayed too much. For me, at least, the series won't be the same. A new Enterprise just won't make it in my book! ---- Wes Miler ---- wesm@mitre-bedford ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 20-Aug SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #161 *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Aug 84 1157-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #161 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 20 Aug 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 161 Today's Topics: Books - Delany & McKiernan & Pynchon & Matter Transmission (5 msgs), Films - Metropolis & Dreamscape Miscellaneous - Humorless God & Filk Songs ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 18 Aug 84 19:18:36-PDT (Sat) From: pur-ee!ecn-ee!hsut @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Delany's - (nf) There is a British edition of The Tides of Lust (Savoy Books) which may be a little easier to find. It has a black cover and LOOKS like a porno novel. A shop in my vicinity keeps it in stock all the time; they're also very good about mail orders. The address: Von's Books Store State Street West Lafayette, IN47907 Despite being an avid Delany fan, I didn't enjoy Tides. The later books were much more interesting. pur-ee!hsut ------------------------------ Date: 17 Aug 84 7:32:36-PDT (Fri) From: ihnp4!inuxc!inuxd!wolenty @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Iron Tower Trilogy I have read "The Dark Tide" by Dennis McKiernan, part one of the Iron Tower Trilogy and found it to be very enjoyable reading. I would recommend it to all who enjoy the epic quest ala "Lord of the Rings". Dwarves, elves, men and warrows unite to defend against the 'evil from the north'. I can't wait for part two.... Ron Wolenty (AT&T Consumer Products) Indpls., IN ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Aug 84 11:11:56 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: Thomas Pynchon Well, I don't know about you folks, but on the basis of "Gravity's Rainbow", Thomas Pynchon is one of my favorite authors, up there with Dickens, Joseph Conrad, and Mark Twain, and far beyond the range of vision of Ellison and Silverberg. (Nabakov is a great writer, and I like many of his works; I couldn't criticize someone who liked him more than Pynchon, but I do have my own preferences.) Thomas Pynchon combines a weird world view with an awe inspiring ability to write. Admittedly, his books are not easy, and if you gave up on "Ulysses", you'll very likely give up on Pynchon. (In fact, Pynchon reminds me more of Joyce than any other author, even though he is far less interested in word games.) But where else can you find banana breakfasts, the Kenosha Kid, Rocketman, an octopus with Pavlovian training to attack a certain woman, a hilarious expose of the true nature of English hard candies (including the dreaded Marmalade Surprise), a smuggler who flies in cream pies via hot air balloon, and a hero whose sexual exploits have a disturbing correlation with the places about to be destroyed by German V2 rockets? Not to mention Rocket Limericks, some of the less obscene of which have turned up in recent versions of UNIX's fortune program. "The Crying of Lot 49" isn't anywhere near as good as "Gravity's Rainbow", and parts of "V" are downright bad. But I haven't noticed any of those dumping on Pynchon saying anything about "Gravity's Rainbow". Perhaps they haven't read it. To give you an idea as to why I consider Pynchon so special, I include a selection from "Gravity's Rainbow" which is part of one of my favorite passages in all literature. Little background is needed. The scene is WWII Britain, Christmas Eve. "The White Visitation" is an insane asylum fronting for a research facility working on military applications of paranormal activities. "At "The White Visitation" there's a longtime schiz, you know, who believes that *he* is World War II. He gets no newspapers, refuses to listen to the wireless, but still, the day of the Normandy invasion somehow his temperature shot up to 104 degrees. Now, as the pincers east and west continue their slow reflex contraction, he speaks of darkness invading his mind, of an attrition of self...The Rundstedt offensive perked him up, though, gave him a new lease on life-"A beautiful Christmas gift", he confessed to the residents on the ward, "it's the season of birth, of fresh beginnings." Whenever the rockets fall- those which are audible- he smiles, turns out to pace the ward, tears about to splash from the corners of his merry eyes, caught up in a ruddy high tonicity that can't help cheering his fellow patients. His days are numbered. He's to die on VE day. If not in fact the war, then he's its child surrogate, living high for a certain term, but come the ceremonial day, look out. The true king only dies a mock death. Remember. Any number of young men may be selected to die in his place while the real king, foxy old bastard, goes on. Will he show up under the Star, slyly genuflecting with the other kings as this winter solstice draws on us? Bring to the serai gifts of tungsten, cordite, high-octane? Will the child gaze up from his ground of golden straw then, gaze into the eyes of the old king who bends long and unfurling overhead, leans to proffer his gift, will the eyes meet, and what message, what possible greeting or entente will flow between the king and the infant prince? Is the baby smiling, or is it just gas? Which do you want it to be?" Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ Date: 17 Aug 84 10:46:59 PDT (Friday) Subject: Re: Matter transmission From: Jerry 1) if E=mcc, the energy is a wavefront (vs particles), and somehow gravity ties to the mass/energy (large concentrations of energy affect matter), what happens as you transmit this gravity thru space/earth? i wouldnt want to get in the way of the beam sending a heavy wavefront. Has any SF author given this treatment to this problem? 2) If the transciever requires LOTS of Quarks/Energy, Perhaps the limiting factor may be a quark enriched fuel, rare and expensive. Brother could you spare a crystal to get me home? 3) The question of transmission of body/mind/soul might find some leads in old mythologies of ghosts and possessions. According to some, when the body dies suddenly (read disintegrates), the soul/ghost remains to haunt the area (perhaps because the body/home isnt reconstructed where it can be found). Or the tales of astral projection where somebody else takes over your body while you're away (with or without leave to do so). Suppose there is a mixup in transmission and you wind up echoing around while someone else uses your body. (wire taps?) There some good ideas in there somewhere for a paratechnomagickal story. From the magic desk of Jerry Isdale arpa: isdale.es@Xerox.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Aug 84 14:34 EDT From: Winston B. Edmond Subject: Suford Lewis's Am I the Same? To Suford Lewis who wondered if he was the same when he wakes up in the morning: No, you are not the same, even from moment to moment. You are constantly changing. As some would say, change is the only constant. Matter transmitters: As for matter transmitters not being able to circumvent the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle well enough to transmit people: one of the chief characteristics of living systems is their ability to organize their environment. An organism can either change the environment to its liking, or can employ its immune system to eliminate a problem. As long as the matter transference system leaves the organism's systems basically undamaged, it should not matter if small errors occur during transmission. If the errors get too large, or course, the person will be rather ill after being transmitted. -WBE ------------------------------ Date: 16 Aug 84 10:18:36-PDT (Thu) From: pur-ee!ecn-ee!hsut @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Disch, matter transmission - (nf) In case no one has mentioned this yet, Tom Disch's Echo Around His Bones is also about matter transmission ( not one of his best, tho). Bill H. pur-ee!hsut ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 84 18:13:40-PDT (Tue) From: decvax!cwruecmp!atvax!ncoast!bsa @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Matter Transmission > How about pursuing the idea that matter > transmission/duplication is possible, but very energy intensive. > An obvious figure is the energy content of the mass sent/copied, > i.e. E=mc^2. The US electrical generating Actually, it would be even worse; I suspect E=mc^2 would be the IDEAL energy for it; production versions would be inefficient, perhaps greatly so. I would guess at 5%-20% efficiency in the very first one built. At E=mc^2 it would be excusable if we found the technique but lacked the energy to make it work... ["Beam me up, Scotty" -- "Aye, but ye've gained weight, we dinna come with the power to beam ye aboard, Captain"] --bsa Brandon Allbery: decvax!cwruecmp{!atvax}!bsa: R0176@CSUOHIO.BITNET ^ Note name change! 6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, OH 44131 <> (216) 524-1416 "The more they overthink the plumbin', the easier 'tis tae stop up the drain." ------------------------------ Date: 18 Aug 84 8:25:23-PDT (Sat) From: ihnp4!mgnetp!burl!clyde!watmath!watrose!mabarnstijn @ From: Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Matter Transmission (NOT duplication) A quick note: if all you wish to do is "transmit" mass Z from point A to point B in 3-space, why not use the "old" idea: Cause a fold through higer dimensions which then "aligns" A and B, and then push Z through a "hole" created in some way. I thought for sure that someone would eventually mention this, but unless I missed it, no one did. Thought I'd rake this oldie up. However, its being old doesn't mean it ain't possible. The advantages are: no scanning for information content, no transmission of more bits than you can shake a logic probe at, and no reconstitution through matter transmutation at the other end. Just step through and hot-foot it to the next booth before those cops figure out what number you dialed!... Michael A. Barnstijn UUCP: {decvax clyde allegra}!watmath!watrose!mabarnstijn CSNET: mabarnstijn%watrose%waterloo.CSNET ARPA: mabarnstijn%watrose%waterloo.CSNET@csnet-relay.CSNET other: Dept. Of C.S., University of Waterloo, Waterloo, Ontario, Canada ------------------------------ Date: 18 Aug 84 13:17:44-PDT (Sat) From: ihnp4!gargoyle!oddjob!garret @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Metropolis 1984 Has anybody seen the new souped-up version of "Metropolis" yet? This one supposedly is in color and has a rock music score. Thank you, Trisha O Tuama ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Aug 84 16:43:58 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: "Dreamscape" "Dreamscape" is yet another potboiler from the Hollywood SF factory. Potboilers have an undeservedly bad reputation. Sure, they're made exclusively to make money, but, when well done, they can give value for your admission price. I don't want to see Bergman, Kurosawa, and Renoir all the time. "Dreamscape" is a good enough film, and I doubt if anyone expected more from it. I certainly didn't, so I wasn't disappointed. On the other hand, I also wasn't surprised. The premise is that those with strong psychical ability can project themselves into the dreams of others. Once this is done, they can become active participants in those dreams. If they're good enough, they can even shape them to fit their desires. Now, throw in a handsome young psychic blackmailed into participating, a kindly old researcher who means well, a sinister rightwing government type who's backing the experiments, an obviously looney psychic, a beautiful doctor who doesn't want to jeopardize the experiments by falling in love, and a President whose nuclear related nightmares are impelling him towards disarmament. It shouldn't take you too long to figure out the major plot twists. Even the minor characters are formulaic. A little kid beset by nightmares obviously exists to provide our hero with a nasty monster to fight and to demonstrate his abilities. An expose-type author is marked for death the moment we know what he's after. Any surprises in the film are on a very low level, such as just what will pop out at what point in a nightmare. This isn't the way to make a good movie, but it is the way to do a genre picture. The audience for such a film isn't after brilliant insights and novel plot twists. They just want the rollercoaster to follow the same tracks as usual, and it doesn't take much from the enjoyment that you can see the whole ride's progress from the moment you get on. The cast does solid work. Dennis Quaid is strong and resourceful as Our Hero. Kate Capshaw finally gets a break from screaming impotently (the bulk of her assignments in "Indiana Jones" and "Best Defense"). Max von Sydow plays the kindly scientist and Christopher Plummer the evil head of an intelligence agency (I suppose that they just flipped a coin to see which of them got which of the two parts; both actors are old hands at these sorts of things). Eddie Albert is convincing enough as the President. He plays it as least as well as Ronnie. The effects are OK, though the dream snakeman is animated rather unconvincingly. One or two of the images in the dream sequences are striking, but overall these are not very imaginative dreams. Photography and music are about par for this kind of thing. Joseph Ruben,the director, managed to get in a few good touchs but was ultimately unable to convince me that I hadn't seen this all before. In one sense, "Dreamscape" is a very good movie. You are almost certain to know beforehand whether or not you will like it. I liked it more than, say, "The Philadelphia Experiment", since it really knew where it was going, but much less than "Raiders of the Lost Ark", since it couldn't provide any surprises on the way. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ Date: 15 Aug 84 11:51:34-PDT (Wed) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!rdin!perl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: "Humorless God": is there any other kind? vice!keithl suggests that some people were created in the image of a humorless god. This implies that God might not be humorless. A few weeks ago I saw a TV show called "DeBono's Thinking Course", in with Dr. DeBono proved logically that God cannot have a sense of humor: God knows everything; therefore, God knows all the punch lines. Robert Perlberg Resource Dynamics Inc. New York philabs!rdin!perl ------------------------------ Date: 18 Aug 84 10:03:00-PDT (Sat) From: pur-ee!uiucdcsb!mcdaniel @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS 'who ius - (nf) "I pray for one last landing On the globe that gave me birth. Let me rest my eyes on fleecy skies And the cool, green hills of Earth." A fun game: think up possible tunes for this song. Some thoughts are below. The rhythm and note matching is as indicated below. Each word of "Green Hills" is put below its corresponding word of the original song. Sing the new word at the same note that the old word is sung at. Sometimes a phrase corresponds to a phrase -- the rhythms are different. Got it? "House of the Rising Sun": There is a house in New Orleans . . . I pray for one last landing . . . The Coke song: I'd like to teach the world to sing . . . I pray for one last landing on . . . "Jingle Bells": Jingle bells, jingle bells, jingle all the way . . . I pray for one last langing on the globe that gave us birth... (very fast and cheery! also the most sickening of the bunch) Try singing them at a con! I'll pay survivor benefits to your next-of-kin. :-) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 23-Aug SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #162 *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Aug 84 1203-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #162 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 23 Aug 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 162 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein & Scholz & Jokes & Reader's Guide & Matter Transmission, Films - Dreamscape (2 msgs) & Star Wars, Miscellaneous - Songs (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Monday, 20 Aug 1984 08:07:35-PDT From: kenah%super.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Andrew Kenah) Subject: Rhysling Rhysling is the blind "Poet of the Sapceways" from Robert A. Heinlein's Future History series. He is eulogized in the title story of "The Green Hills of Earth". The entire series is also contained in the omnibus edition, "The Past Through Tomorrow". Andrew Kenah DEC in Nashua, N.H. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Aug 84 04:17:18 mdt From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley) Subject: A review of PALIMPSESTS by Carter Scholz and Glenn Harcourt PALIMPSESTS. Carter Scholz and Glenn Harcourt. Ace Specials, c1984. Non-spoiler review: A difficult read. Pynchon fans may like it. Micro-spoiler review: This is billed as a time-travel novel, but it is as much about time travel as GRAVITY'S RAINBOW is about space travel. The style is very 'artistic' and convoluted, the protagonist is an angst-ridden anti-hero, and the story ends with a deflating anti-climax. There are some people who see these things as virtues, among them Barry Malzberg, who renders glowing compliments to Carter Scholz on the back flap. I didn't enjoy GRAVITY'S RAINBOW and I had to force myself to finish this novel, but I know people who adore Pynchon and might like PALIMPSESTS. Mini-spoiler review: This novel stirs me to make bad 'angst' jokes. ('What is nihilism?' 'One angst clapping.' Maybe it sounds better with elephants...) The novel is not all bad -- sometimes it slips in a good one: Uneasily Camus lit a cigarette. Carpenter was close to raving. He held his arms apart now, facing the coffin. 'O sublime ALU-father, daddy data, maw of the motherboard, blind as a battery, adding in ADA, singing the giga-GIGO-data-dada-blues, yes, tremulous deliria of deltic delphic time, the fast fast blues, the ultraviolet and the invisible....' He broke off witha rough laugh. 'Blacks get blues. Whites get angst. Machines get even. It's called parity.' If you like this sort of thing, then you might like this book since virtually all the dialogues and internal monologues are written the same way, alternating philosophical and literary allusions with 'prose-poetry' and amusing Pynchon-like ramblings. The plot, such as it is, centers around a German graduate student in paleoanthropology with the unlikely name of Camus. (Most of the characters have unlikely names, another steal from Pynchon.) Camus is amazingly selfish for a person who seems to be completely empty -- he has no visible ambitions or strong emotions, other than boredom and occasionally lust. We are told that he enjoys failure and is irritated by success, so he is actually feeling pretty good at a pointless dig in the Neander Valley. But a hidden cave is discovered by his advisor, Professor Warner, and in that cave is found a Neanderthal skeleton and a curious block of metal two centimeters on a side, weighing two kilograms. This block is construed as evidence of time travel (not visiting aliens, for some reason) and when Camus finds himself in possession of it he learns that a certain organization is willing to kill to obtain it. During the chase Camus manages to fall in love again with his old girlfriend; I found these scenes to be the most enjoyable in the book, although of course he dumps her again later on and she attempts to revenge herself on him. The block and the corporation are meant to be analogous to the corresponding substance and company in GRAVITY'S RAINBOW (yet another steal). Eventually the company captures Camus with the help of Professor Warner and Camus is forced to descend through the heavily symbolic seven levels of its mammoth underground building in Alaska, whose inhabitants have all been driven insane by unresolved angst or tainted egg-salad sandwiches or something. Why read about angst when you can enjoy it in the comfort of your own home? Yawn. The authors DID leave out Pynchon's imitations of Rabelais' lists, and the constant sexual philandering. ('But GRAVITY'S RAINBOW is SUPPOSED to be boring -- it's demonstrating the banality of war with the banality of sex.' 'If you say so.') Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa PS -- There do appear to be some possibly better Ace Specials coming down the pike, according to the list in PALIMPSESTS: Howard Waldrop's novel THEM BONES is scheduled for November and Michael Swanwick's IN THE DRIFT should come out in February next year. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Aug 84 15:23:47-PDT (Fri) From: ihnp4!alberta!sask!hardie @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: more Larry Niven Lightbulb Jokes (obscurer) I beg to differ .... the answer to 'how many Outsiders does it take to change a lightbulb is .... That information will cost you one trillion credits. Sorry. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Aug 84 10:43:54 CDT From: Will Martin -- DRXAL-RI Subject: Reader's Guide to Fantasy I've been looking at a book that readers of SF-Lovers should find of some interest. It is A READER'S GUIDE TO FANTASY, by Baird Searles, Beth Meacham, and Michael Franklin (1982, Facts on File publishers). It is a survey volume, most of which is an alphabetical list of authors, with a discussion of their fantasy works. Minor authors get half a page or so; major ones get 3-4 pages. Other sections include lists of series, arranged by author and series name, and some lists of recommended reading and general discussion of the genre. It's not the sort of thing that most people would find worth buying, but it is handy to get from the library and scan through. I made notes as I read it about books and series which sounded as if I would enjoy them. I then searched through the catalog in the library trying to find these books. Sadly, the St. Louis Public Library system was lacking most of the ones I wanted, and, annoyingly, they would have some of a series but not all (missing one or more out of the middle, which is inexplicable to me -- I could understand having the first or first few and then not having the rest, but not missing #3 out of a series of four, for example). I hope your library system is better! The book is somewhat sloppily constructed. There are an annoying number of typos. The word "quest" is spelled "guest" repeatedly, for example. (Maybe typesetting from poor handwriting?) But an editor and proofreader should catch this stuff. Also, an appendix lists winners of various fantasy awards, yet not all those listed as winners are included in the author listings. However, as a source of suggestions as to what you might like to read, it is useful. Since a lot of fantasy is aimed at children, it is sometimes hard to determine what an adult will enjoy reading. Having this sort of guide helps weed out authors or books you don't want to bother with, and gives hints to those you might want to keep an eye out for at a used book store or a con. Regards, Will ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Aug 84 09:34 PDT From: alfke.pasa@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Still another m.t. story . . . OK, I remember a story (but not the title or author, unfortunately) in which matter transmission had replaced other forms of public transit; i.e. the booths were large and expensive and run by the city (of New York, I believe). This being a public transit system, it of course breaks down one day during rush hour, leaving several dozen people in the process of transmission as it stops. These people find themselves, in the midst of what was normally an instantaneous process, stuck in a limbo (a batch output queue?) with no sensory input. While the repairmen fix the central transceiver (which takes a few hours), the people in the machine find themselves able to communicate telepathically, and during this time a pregnant woman who is being rushed to the hospital gives birth, the child becoming the first person ever to be born "in transit" . . . I read this story in an anthology several years back. I think I have the plot straight, but I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who knows what story this is. Anyway, this seems like a fairly interesting method of matter transmission. Although these people have no bodies at all for several hours, they obviously retain their souls (minds, consciousnesses, whatever) -- so where are the souls stored? Are they "haunting" the machine? Could the souls be "bottled" and put into, say, a memory board? Could the machine be made to put the wrong soul in the wrong body when the body rematerializes? -- Peter Alfke (Alfke.pasa@Xerox.ARPA) (And, if only one person survived the ordeal, would he be the soul survivor? No, but seriously folks . . . ) ------------------------------ Date: Mon 20 Aug 84 17:41:06-PDT From: Doug Bryan Subject: Dreamscape In reply to Dave Mankins' message about Dreamscape: Some who have seen "Dreamscape" seem to think it was a good SF film. I very much disagree. The plot was thin; the villain was under-developed and quite simple minded. In the end the hero was able to defeat the villian and save all only because the villain came right out and told our hero the secret to 'dream warfare'. The dream sequences contained very few special effects. The main dream monster (the snake-man) was nothing more than a rubber suite one could probably buy at a good costume store. I felt the special effects were very much substandard for a 1984 film. A number of the dreams had a nuclear destruction theme and in these you can see film clips from 1950's DoD tests. These clips were made into 'special effects' by simply adding color masks and filters. Such techniques would be acceptable for TV or a feature film make 25 years ago but not in a modern SF film. Also I felt the film did not nearly enough develop the technical aspects of dream intervention. In the early parts of the movie all kinds of computers and electrical equipment are shown to be used to help a person enter another person's dream yet not even a hint as to how this is done is given. So if you want to see a good SF film, avoid "Dreamscape" at all costs. Doug Bryan bryan@su-sierra facts are temporary... long live fantasy! ------------------------------ Date: 21 Aug 84 15:20:01 PDT (Tuesday) Subject: Re: "Dreamscape" (Peter Reiher's review in V9 #161) From: Kevin "An expose-type author is marked for death the moment we know what he's after." No, he wrote horror novels (one of which he showed) and was getting material for a new book (he even said so). This is something I liked about the movie. It brought up several of the implications of dream manipulation/observance. ~Kevin ------------------------------ Date: 21 Aug 1984 9:45:02 EDT (Tuesday) From: Vicki Kanrek Subject: Star Wars I - Conjecture... Regarding the recent blurb in CINEFANTASTIQUE, a couple of questions: a) WHY do people feel Cinefastastique is biased against Lucas et al? b) IF the leak is true, then what possibilities do people out there foresee as a possible plot for Star Wars I?? Who will be in it?, i.e., will they manage to get the current 'stars' in playing their ancestors? Ian McDermid is, after all, young enough to play a younger Senator Palpitane. Will this be a boring disappointment, like the unfortunate muppet show part of Jedi, or the overuse of mucus therein? My sister and I would love to hear some conjecture on the above. Frankly, I don't think Lucas can pull it off, and still feel he should quit while 'ahead'. (She thinks he can!) Of course, I hated ROTJ the first time, and have now come to love it AND TESB, too! Talk about a 180! Any thoughts will be muchly appreciated. Vicki Kanrek (vjk@bbn-unix.arpa) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Aug 84 08:23 PDT From: WAHL.ES@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #161 "I've tried each spinning space mote And reconned its true worth Take me back again to the homes of Men And the cool, green hills of Earth." Try the Gilligan's Island theme. --Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Tue 21 Aug 84 10:38:43-PDT From: Lynn Gold Subject: Cool Green Hills of Earth Forgive me for asking, but why bother to put this song to a different tune? Is the original tune so obscure that nobody seems to know it? If you can pick it up, radio station WVHC in Hempstead, NY (Long Island), at 88.7 FM used to have and probably still does have a C&W program called Western Star which is run on Saturday mornings (I suggest calling them at (516)489-8870 for the exact time slot). Why do I bother to mention this? Well, it just happens to be the case that the woman who does this show is an avid fan of SF, and "Cool Green Hills of Earth" was the first Science-Fiction-Country-And- Western song ever done, as she will gladly tell you. In fact, Alice likes it SO much that she uses it as her closing theme! For those of us who aren't within WVHC's broadcast range, the best I can do to describe the tune is to say it is similar to "The Green, Green Grass of Home." Lynn ------------------------------ Date: Tue 21 Aug 84 16:48:15-EDT From: Wang Zeep Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #161 More tunes for "Green Hills of Earth": Gilligan's Island Theme (not bad if done slowly) Beethoven's 9th (the Ode to Joy part) Clementine Basically, since the song is in iambic septameter(?), it fits a huge number of songs. Lovely way to get a free shower. wz ------------------------------ Date: 20 Aug 84 11:20:57-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!davidl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS 'who ius - (nf) AWFUL tunes for some favorite words... Just sit right back and you'll hear a tale I pray for one last landing on A tale of a fateful trip The globe that gave us birth That started from this tropic port Let us lift our eyes to the fleecy skies Aboard this tiny ship... Of the cool green hills of Earth... And another: In a cavern, in a canyon Soldier ask not, now or ever Exca- va- ting for a mine Where to war your bannners go Dwelt a miner Forty-Niner Anarch's legions all surround us And his daughter Clementine Strike and do not count the blow Want more? Try "Greensleeves" to the Gilligan's island theme. Try "The Marines' Hymn" to "Clementine." Try "Clementine" to "The Song of the Volga Boatmen" (you know, "Yo ho heave ho (ugh), Yo ho heave ho (ugh)..."). Slaughterer of favorite songs: David D. Levine (...decvax!tektronix!tekecs!davidl) [UUCP] (tekecs!davidl.tektronix@csnet-relay.csnet) [ARPA] P.S. Can anyone tell me what the Subject: line of the base article means? ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Summary-line: 23-Aug SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #163 Date: 23 Aug 84 1232-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #163 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Aug 84 1232-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #163 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 23 Aug 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 163 Today's Topics: Books - MacAvoy & Pynchon & Swycaffer & Psychologically Complex Authors & Matter Transmission & Souls (3 msgs), Films - Metropolis & Star Trek (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 21 Aug 84 10:40:25 EDT Subject: "Raphael" From: Mike O'Brien I've just finished "Raphael", by R. A. MacAvoy, and I can wholeheartedly recommend the series which it concludes, the first two books being "Damiano" and "Damiano's Lute". Good writing is, thankfully, becoming less rare in the fantasy field, and this is very good writing indeed. What is much more rare is originality, and this we receive in full measure here. I hadn't realized how irritated and depressed I was becoming, reading all of the other recent fantasy. (One major offender in this regard is Patricia C. Wrede: an excellent writer whose works I enjoy, but whose plots, and most of whose characters, practically have visible mold marks.) MacAvoy lets me rejoice in not knowing what is coming next. This is not the frenetic confusion that marked things like the "Illuminatus" trilogy, but a well-played sense that the author knows what is coming, and dares you to guess what it is. There are times when the author hides too much of the overall motivation of the book, and what started as a tightly plotted story turns picaresque. There is nothing wrong with a picaresque novel, to be sure, but a transition to and from such a style within a single book can be jarring. Compared to the grevious literary offenses committed by the author's peers, however, this is a minor flaw indeed. Those who take their literature straight, and can be found in the company of Jane Austen as well as Robert Heinlein, will enjoy these books immensely. ------------------------------ From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Date: 21 Aug 84 13:50:17 EDT Subject: Pynchon's New Clothes I see Peter's at it again; 'bout time for a balanced view... Long time ago a friend of mine sat on my chest until I promised to read GRAVITY'S RAINBOW. I read the first 24,268 pages or so (just kidding guys, it only FELT that long) and then gave up. Is GRAVITY'S RAINBOW literature? I guess so; says so on the label and all that. Is it a story? No. What it is is an inner core of clever notions embedded in a 15,000 kilometer-thick outer crust of self-indulgent, chaotic, goshwowaintiawordsmith verbal posturings. I happen to be a reactionary with respect to *Style* (note ASCII reverence marks) and I believe it should lurk in the dark spaces beneath the prose and bite you in the ass when you aren't looking. All through GR I felt myself getting hit so hard on the head with *Style* that my ears are still ringing. Pynchon was straining so hard for *Style* I thought he'd bust a hemmorhoid and bleed to death. There was a good novel knocking around in there somewhere. Written cleanly at about one third its current monumental length, the book just might have had something real to say about war and human foolishness. As it stands, I think it's terminally artsyfartsy and not worth the effort to find a gem every 300 pages. Send brickbats freight collect; they're too heavy for UPS. Jeff Duntemann duntemann.wbst@xerox ------------------------------ Date: 22 Aug 1984 17:56:21 PDT Subject: "Not in Our Stars" From: John Platt "Not in Our Stars" by Jefferson P. Swycaffer just came out. It's not a bad book: it has a lot of interesting space battles, admirals screaming at each other, and political intrigue. Sort of like Pournelle, except without a right-wing slant. Swycaffer's universe is based loosely on the game "Traveller", so if you like the game, you'll probably like the book. enjoy, John Platt ------------------------------ Date: Mon Aug 20 21:15:04 1984 From: mclure@sri-prism Subject: psychologically complex authors Re: Gravity's Rainbow. I tried reading it. I got about one or two hundred pages in and gave up (as I did with Delaney's DAHLGREN and Clavell's SHOGUN and ...) There's only so much claptrap I'm willing to put up with. If the author doesn't catch and hold my attention in one hundred pages, I figure he's failed miserably. Gravity's Rainbow is amusing but grossly overlong. I think much of Pynchon's popularity comes from his 'errie personal life' as perceived by his fans (much as with J.D. Salinger). As far as Joyce goes, I'm not impressed with him either. I think FINNEGAN'S WAKE is pathetic garbage. I don't know a single person who has finished it or even claims to understand 1% of what the guy is trying to say (he's trying to say something?). ULYSSES is somewhat better but has much of the same. If you are looking for superior fiction, pick up a copy of Vladimir Nabokov's THE ANNOTATED LOLITA. It has many puzzle-like themes running through it, but it maintains the humanity so many of the others lack. I have not read a better work in the English language than this book. Joyce, Conrad, Faulkner, etc. all pale in comparison with what the master Nabokov does with the English language in this book. It revitalized the idea of the English novel when it came out. Many critics, at the time, felt that the English novel was dead. Other fine Nabokov books: ADA, THE DEFENSE, PALE FIRE, PNIN. Stuart ------------------------------ Date: 21 Aug 84 17:45 PDT From: Woody.pasa@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Matter Transmission and Souls Here's a problem which arises, then: Today I'm me. I'm made up of around 160 pounds of matter, and if I step into a matter- transport, the machine goes *wrrrrr* and poof!, it copies all of the spin states and the wave forms of the atoms and molecules making up the poor fat of this body, and duplicates it, zapping this old poor body in the sending booth in the process. Is it really *me* in the new location? (Or is it Memorex?) Okay, so I'm not me. I'm just a copy of the old *me*. I go to sleep tonight, and a few molecules in my brain get shuffled out, and some new ones take their places. This happens all the time; I'm slowly, amino acid by amino acid, being replaced by new molecules. In a few years, the majority of the molecules which used to be in *me* before are now gone; replaced. The mass of the matter, instead of being ripped up and destroyed, only to be reassembled, has now over a period of many years been destroyed and flushed away. Okay: is it really me now? I mean before I got put into a matter- transmitter; now I've just sat around on my behind for a couple of years. So, am I really me, or am I a cheap imitation, made up of matter from Big-Macs and Milk-Shakes? - From the smoking remains of Bill Woody "You are what you eat." ------------------------------ From: DUNTEMANN.WBST@XEROX.ARPA Date: 20 Aug 84 15:52:28 EDT Subject: Silicon souls Ahhh, souls...one of my favorite topics as a writer. For those who are interested, I've had three pertinent stories in print: "Ariel" in a hammy collection called TALES OF THE MARVELOUS MACHINE, published by Creative Computing Press. A man who has just lost his wife of many years asks a priest: Can a computer have a soul, and is it moral to "turn him off?" "Silicon Psalm" in IASFM for February 1981. An intelligent medical life support system is asked by its patient to turn her off and let her die. "Guardian" in IASFM for September 1980. Was on the Hugo final ballot in 1981. An ancient fighting machine emerges from a swamp after 1700 years and challenges the beliefs of a rural abbott in a ruined future America. Not many writers have taken this issue by the horns; most cannot disconnect the silliness of organized religion from the serious questions of the nature of spirit and human immortality. Most assume that there cannot be immortal souls without admitting to some kind of almighty God--a connection I find puzzling, and a tribute to the power of pseudochristian brainwashing. Gaby's spiritual presence after death in Varley's DEMON is one of the few thoughtful explorations of the notion of spirit to appear in recent years. Also see "Trinity" by Nancy Kress in the current edition of IASFM. Nan is a good friend and I helped her with the project a little. "Trinity" is all the more remarkable considering it came from a rather militant Atheist--Nan is considerably more openminded about the notion of spirit than several (mostly male) writers Whose Names You Would Know, who have poked fun of every serious attempt to consider the possibilities of spirit and immortality to come up in discussions I've had with them. At worst, their reactions remind me of the poor sap who throws a screaming temper tantrum anytime anybody suggests we think about the possibilities of travelling faster than light. Pure rationality is necessary, but insufficient to our understanding of the universe and how it works. Just ask Schroedinger's Cat. Jeff Duntemann duntemann.wbst@xerox ------------------------------ From: Steve Platt Subject: Souls and Clones Date: Wed, 22 Aug 84 00:29 EDT Syd Logsdon: ^SA Fond Farewell to Dying^S, discusses the problem of the transfer of the soul in a cloned human being. Alternate notes on matter transmission/creation: why is it necessary to create ^Sa lot^S of matter? If you are re/constructing to meet subatomic specifications, you might as well create wafer-sized IC's, worth far more than gold by weight. Surgical implants and extractions in otherwise unreachable sites, etc, etc. As a weapon: pump some small amount of mass (say, one years' garbage output of NYC) into a single point; this'll create a black hole which will quickly evaporate in a rather nasty explosion. (I ^Stried^S to turn this into an energy source, but the amt. of mass to stabilize the evaporation is just too large. In what would be managable, you could only create a blot which would explode in no time at all.) steve ------------------------------ Date: 17 Aug 84 12:41:42-PDT (Fri) From: decvax!cwruecmp!atvax!ncoast!bsa @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: souls [The world is a Klein bottle] > From: HEDRICK@RUTGERS.ARPA > I like to consider the soul as a process, with our body as the > hardware on which it is running. This raises another interesting > issue that I would like to see SF explore. If we succeed in > creating an intelligent computer, at what point does it become > murder to turn it off? Or is it enough if we store its current > state on tape? (Perhaps turning it off in that case is not murder > but kidnapping.) "...He had been threatened with disconnection; he would be deprived of all his inputs, and thrown into an unimaginable state of unconsciousness. "To Hal, this was the equivalent of Death. For he had never slept, and therefore could not know that one could wake again..." -Arthur C. Clarke, "2001: A Space Odyssey" (novelization) Which could become an important consideration when we get intelligent computers going. Remember: the moment consumers are able to get at them, some brain is going to do something really ignorant and foolish; an intelligent computer is going to have to put up with a LOT of human foibles. If he (the I.C.) feels the way HAL did, we're all in trouble. bsa Brandon Allbery: decvax!cwruecmp{!atvax}!ncoast!bsa: R0176@CSUOHIO.BITNET ^ Note name change! 6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, OH 44131 <> (216) 524-1416 "The more they overthink the plumbin', the easier 'tis tae stop up the drain." ------------------------------ Date: 21 Aug 84 6:36:58-PDT (Tue) From: ihnp4!tellab1!tellab2!tellab3!steve @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Metropolis 1984 Yes and it's pretty good. I wouldn't say they added full color --- just some scenes are "tinted". The music helped alot (although the lyrics get corny now and then). The subtitles have been redone and some footage which was cut out of the original flick for America has been spliced back in. This makes the film alot easier to follow. ...ihnp4!tellab1!steve Steve Harpster Tellabs, Inc. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Aug 84 09:26 EDT From: Gubbins@RADC-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #160 Kirk's tombstone in Where No Man Has Gone Before, incorrectly reads in the Blish novelizations as James R. Kirk (this is where you got the R. from). Anyone know what, if readable at all, the tombstone in the series read??? ------------------------------ From: Chris McMenomy Date: 21 Aug 84 13:04:06 PDT (Tue) Subject: Star Trek, The TV Show Channel 13, a local Los Angeles TV station, showed a double bill last night. Part one was an hour-long "special" on the character development of Spock which was narrated by Leonard Nimoy. It had clips from many episodes, as well as from the first two movies. From remarks at the end, it was made during the filming of "The Search for Spock". Part two was the episode "Space Seed" from the first season of STAR TREK (the one about original discovery of Khan's Botany Bay sleeper ship and his first attempt to take over the Enterprise). Both shows had "commercials" from Channel 13, claiming that the station has found at Paramount the original shooting film, made new 35mm prints, and will be showing the original STAR TREK TV episodes **UNCUT** this fall (no time or days given). I lost too many great moments to Cal Worthington commercials during the syndicated reruns to appreciate them. If the screening of "Space Seed" last night was any indication, the reprints are gorgeous--clean color, no streaks--and complete! Further, Herve Bennet really did his homework on the episode. At one point in evaluating Khan's recovery in the Enterprise sick bay, McCoy remarks to Kirk "He's strong. He could probably lift you and me both with one arm", prefiguring the scene where Khan lifts Chekov in STII. And later, McCoy assures Lt. Marla McGivers (who eventually becomes Mrs. Khan) that Khan is recovering "There's something in this man that won't accept death." As Khan would say, "Excellent". --Christe McMenomy ------------------------------ Date: 22 Aug 84 20:52:47 EDT From: Jaffe@RUTGERS Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!! The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the movie "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock". People who have not yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following message. Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) ------------------------------ Date: 21 Aug 1984 1321-EDT From: Warren Sander Subject: Star Trek IV There's a lot of talk on what may happen if ST IV continues along the same path as ST II and ST III. Who's to say that it will continue that way. STTMP and STtRoK take place year(s) apart because this newly refurbished Enterprise has become a training ship. What is to say that ST IV couldn't happen at some earlier time say the last adventure of the now immortalized 5-year mission. Or maybe they could overlook the entire thing and just make a Star Trek movie. I hope they don't get hung up on what happened before. Think carefully how much of the main action of ST II was incorporated into ST III all the Gensis/Spock stuff was just filler leading up to the ST III. The main action was Kahn escaping and going after Kirk. So maybe there is some action perhaps on the side that we may be missing. (ie the 'secret mission' etc) that will quickly resolve the past and let them continue on into the future with a new adventure. (maybe McCoy and Spock will now share some mind link that the Klingons and/or Romulans will use to get to Spock.) remember Kirk did steal a Klingon ship, maybe they're mad at him.. (something to think about) after all courtroom movies are good only if you haven't seen all the action before (a la Breaker Morant or even the Courtmarshall episode of ST). Warren Sander [SANDER at DEC-MARLBORO] ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 27-Aug SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #164 *** EOOH *** Date: 27 Aug 84 0952-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #164 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 27 Aug 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 164 Today's Topics: Books - Longyear & Pohl (5 msgs) & Pynchon & Fantasy Reading Recommendation & Book Request & Matter Transmission (5 msgs) & Jokes, Films - Movie Request, Miscellaneous - SFLOVERS Party at Worldcon & Songs (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sunday, 26 Aug 1984 22:08:08-PDT From: goldenberg%vaxwrk.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Ruth Goldenberg) Subject: Adagio by Barry Longyear I recommend that you go buy/read the Sept. Omni for Adagio by Barry Longyear. It's a great story - imaginative plot, more real-sounding dialogue and monologue than most, and a glorious punchline. Almost any plot details would spoil it - it's the story of 5 people stranded on an out-of-the-way planet and what they do in their copious free time. Ruth Goldenberg ------------------------------ Date: 22 Aug 84 20:40:41-PDT (Wed) From: ihnp4!pegasus!naiman @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Fredrick Pohl's "Gateway" Does anybody know if there was any sequel to "Gateway" ? If so, please mail the title to me. Did anybody else like that book as much as I did ? I thought he set up a really interesting civilization. On par with Asimov's civilization in "The God's Themselves". ==> Ephrayim J. Naiman @ AT&T Information Systems Laboratories (201) 576-6259 Paths: [ihnp4, allegra, hogpc, ...]!pegasus!naiman ------------------------------ Date: 24 Aug 84 6:25:42-PDT (Fri) From: ihnp4!ihuxf!rls @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Sequel to Gateway The sequel to Frederik Poul's book "Gateway" is "Beyond The Blue Event Horizon" copyright 1980, published by Ballantine Books, ISBN 0-345-27535-7. I dug my copy out of the attic as I could not remember the title at first. Most of the mysteries of the Heechee are answered and Robinette Broadhead is still the main character. Nuf Sed Rick Schieve ------------------------------ Date: 24 Aug 84 11:46:43-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!ut-sally!utastro!fritz @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Fredrick Pohl's "Gateway" Try "Beyond the Blue Event Horizon". Excellent sequel to "Gateway". There may be a third in this series. Fritz Benedict (512)471-4461x448 uucp: {...seismo,decvax}!noao!utastro!fritz arpa: fritz@ut-ngp snail: Astronomy, U of Texas, Austin, TX 78712 ------------------------------ Date: 24 Aug 84 10:19:31-PDT (Fri) From: ihnp4!pegasus!naiman @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Heeche revisited >> I'm told, but have not read, that the Heechee appear in THE >> MERCHANTS OF VENUS. >> >> Neil Ostrove cbosgd!ost Does anyone know if this is true ? ==> Ephrayim J. Naiman @ AT&T Information Systems Laboratories (201) 576-6259 Paths: [ihnp4, allegra, hogpc, ...]!pegasus!naiman ------------------------------ Date: 24 Aug 84 6:31:22-PDT (Fri) From: ihnp4!drutx!houxe!hogpc!pegasus!naiman @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Sequels to "Gateway" The sequels are : 1 Gateway (paperback) 2 Beyond the blue event horizon (paperback) 3 HeeChee rendezvous (hardback , just out) To everybody who answered me -- thank you very much. ==> Ephrayim J. Naiman @ AT&T Information Systems Laboratories (201) 576-6259 Paths: [ihnp4, allegra, hogpc, ...]!pegasus!naiman ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 84 23:38:35 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: Pynchon Needless to say, I do not agree with Mr. Duntemann's and Mr. Mclure's appraisal of "Gravity's Rainbow". I should have mentioned earlier that "Gravity's Rainbow" is not the sort of book everyone will like. But, if you do like it, you'll probably *really* like it. Thus, for those with any interest, I suggest borrowing a copy and reading the first fifty or one hundred pages. If you don't like it by this point, quit, as the beginning of the book is representative of the rest. (On one important point Duntemann is definitely right. "Gravity's Rainbow" is very long, over 800 pages of small type in my edition. If you dislike long books, probably you shouldn't bother with it.) Might further discussion of the literary merits of this book be better carried out in private mail or net.books? Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ Date: 20 Aug 84 7:07:12-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!harvard!wjh12!foxvax1!brunix!browngr!smd @ From: Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Fantasy reading recommendation (request) I'd like to see reveiws to at least some of the series you mentioned. In addition I need some recommendations for some books to read in general, both in fantasy and science fiction. I've just about exhausted my old author favorites and I'm anxiously awaiting new books by them. Here is a list of some of my favorites....reviews can be furnished if requested: Piers Anthony, Randall Garrett, David Gerrold, James Hogan Ann McCaffery, Larry Niven, Alan Dean Foster, Robert Forward, Lyndon Hardy, and Christopher Stasheff. smd%brown@csnet-relay ------------------------------ Date: 24 Aug 1984 06:45:18 PDT From: CARROLL@USC-ISIB.ARPA Subject: Author/title request Some years ago I read a story about a presidential election in which only one person voted. Statistical sampling had advanced to the point that one specially chosen citizen could be questioned about many different things and the outcome of any contest predicted, thus saving many megabux in election costs. It was a great honor to be the person chosen, even though you knew that about 1/2 of the country would be mad at you. It didn't even matter which candidate YOU personally wanted, just how your answers reflected society as a whole. The subject was hooked into a polygraph device, not because of fear of lying, but to help measure the exact strength of feelings when the verbal answers were given. Anyone know title/author? Thanx, Steve (carroll@USC-ISIB) ------------------------------ Date: 22 Aug 84 15:27:51-PDT (Wed) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!ut-sally!barnett @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Yet another m.t. story . . . After all these weeks of discussion on matter transmission, I just remembered a really interesting story with an odd twist on it. The story (novel, I guess, though I read an abridgement in some anthology when I was about 12) is "The Stars My Destination" by Alfred Bester. It's called "jaunting," and is a mental rather than a mechanical process. You have to know the spatial coordinates of your destination before you start, then you just sort of wish yourself there, if I remember correctly. Not knowing your destination results in personal disaster. Part of the story takes place in a prison, where one of the prevalent means of "escape" is the "blue jaunt," a one-way trip that is detectable by the characteristic muffled thud it produces. The hero of the story, one Gulliver Foyle, is somewhat unusual (even in this scenario) in that he is the first man to discover how to jaunt in space *and* time. Lewis Barnett,CS Dept, Painter Hall 3.28, Univ. of Texas, Austin, TX 78712 -- barnett@ut-sally.ARPA, barnett@ut-sally.UUCP, {ihnp4,seismo,ctvax}!ut-sally!barnett ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 1984 23:58 EDT From: RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: alfke.pasa@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Still another m.t. story . . . Basically, the issue of "what happens if you get temporarily stuck in a processor because of reason x" has had many manifestations, most notably (to me) "Overdrawn at the Memory Bank" by...run to bookshelf... John Varley, reprinted in the 1977 World's Best SF. %RMS-PERSON-OVERFL Personality Overflows Virtual Address Space Stuck on magtape, James Turner ------------------------------ Date: 25 Aug 84 8:20:17-PDT (Sat) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!trwrb!scgvaxd!wlbr!dcm @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Yet another m.t. story . . . YAMTS? An excellant book is Transmission Error by (Memory fault:core uh, core uh? er?). See what happens when some one changes the setting of a matter transmitter at the last minute. ------------------------------ Date: Fri 24 Aug 84 11:17:01-PDT From: Bruce Subject: Matter Transmission Matter transmission can quite possibly be accomplished without technology remotely resembling that required for replication. Aside from the psi-based (i.e., magic) teleportation of Null-A, there is a possible quantum mechanical explanation. As Scotty (aka James Blish) explains in /Spock Must Die!/: "What the transporter does is analyze the energy /state/ of each particle in the body and then produce a Dirac jump to an equivalent state somewhere else. No conversion is involved -- if there were, we'd blow up the ship." (p. 3) An alternative explanation relies on the same principle whereby black holes can be used to create TV sets. What you think is your body is only a collection of probabilities. We simply (!) build a machine that makes it much more probable that your body is someplace else and presto! you're there. The Infinite Improbability Drive in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is in all "probability" based on exactly this principle. There is also the question of whether it's really "you" when you get to the other end. Well, if you look at it the right way, you're really staying still while the rest of the universe has been moved. (Einstein said we could look at it this way.) So you really are still "you". As for the rest of the universe... P.S. Is there any basis to the rumor that ST IV will be called STAR TREK IV: The Wrath of Spock ?? ------------------------------ Date: 21 Aug 84 20:27:25-PDT (Tue) From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!pegasus!lzmi!psc @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Suford Lewis's Am I the Same? "Suford Lewis: is he the same when he wakes up the next morning?" If, one morning, she didn't wake up female, she sure wouldn't be the same! (If I'm confusing SL with someone else, this joke is going to be humorously obscure, but I think I'm right.) -Paul S R Chisholm, AT&T-IS, {lznv,lzmi,lzwi}!psc ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Aug 84 15:06:38 CDT From: Mike Caplinger Subject: Re: more Larry Niven Lightbulb Jokes (obscurer) "That information will cost you one trillion credits." Sorry, but the unit of currency in Known Space is the "star". - Mike ------------------------------ Date: Mon 27 Aug 84 00:27:14-EDT From: Peter G. Trei Subject: Movie Request. VERY late the other night I saw the first 45 minutes or so of a very strange, funny movie. I would like to recommend it as a con film, but I do not know the year, studio, or much else . The movies' title seemed to be 'The Mad Monster Party', and was done to full length with stop- motion animation using puppets. The NYT listing was totally inaccurate, but on internal evidence I would place it somewhere in the mid-Sixties to early Seventies. The plot, as far as I saw it, concerned Dr. Frankenstein inviting many of the worlds leading monsters to his island (in the Bahamas?!) for a convention and retirement party. I greatly enjoyed the part I saw, and would like to known more about this movie. Who made it? When? Did they make anything else like it? Peter Trei oc.trei%cu20b@columbia-20.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Aug 1984 21:18 EDT From: RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: This is it! Hear ye, hear ye: SF-LOVERS-PARTY Friday, August 31, 1984 10 PM At the Hilton Towers L.A. Con The party will be in a private room. The room number will be posted on one or more party boards under "Friends of Duffey, Jaffe, and Lauren". If you can't find this listing, check at the front desk for the room number of James Turner, or leave a message for me on the message board. Under no circumstances approach official L.A. Con people looking for information, they have none. Contributions of food, soda, bheer, etc. will be appreciated. James Turner ------------------------------ Date: 24 Aug 1984 06:46:20 PDT From: CARROLL@USC-ISIB.ARPA Subject: Green hills music Try "Oh, Susannah". ------------------------------ Date: 24 Aug 84 6:33:51-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!zehntel!dual!amd!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian @ From: Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: "The Green Hills of Earth" From: uiucdcsb!mcdaniel > "I pray for one last landing > On the globe that gave me birth. > Let me rest my eyes on fleecy skies > And the cool, green hills of Earth." > > A fun game: think up possible tunes for this song. How about "The Battle Hymn of the Republic"? (Almost *any* song goes to this one): "Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord..." "I pray for one last landing on the globe that gave me birth..." jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}! decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 2-Sep SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #165 *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Sep 84 1903-EDT From: Dave Steiner (Temp. Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #165 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 2 Sep 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 165 Today's Topics: Administrivia - Temporary Moderator, Books - Asimov (5 msgs) & Blish & Scarborough & Tepper & Book Discussions, Films - Mad Monster Party & The Monster Mash & Buckeroo Banzai & Dreamscape, Television - Star Trek (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 Sep 84 18:59:03 EDT From: Dave Subject: Temporary Moderator Hi All, I'm your temporary moderator while Saul is enjoying himself at WorldCon. Saul will be back to take over in the middle of this week. Hope you find my editing ok. Cheers, ds ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 27 Aug 1984 17:43:37-PDT From: goun%elmer.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Roger H. Goun) Subject: Re: Author/title request The story you're looking for was written by Isaac Asimov. I'm pretty sure it appeared in the collection EARTH IS ROOM ENOUGH, but my copy is not in this state. I'm somewhat less sure about the story title, but it might be "Franchise." -- Roger Goun ARPA: goun%elmer.DEC@decwrl.ARPA UUCP: {allegra, decvax, ihnp4, ucbvax} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-elmer!goun USPS: Digital Equipment Corp., HLO2-2/H13 77 Reed Road; Hudson, MA 01749 Tel: (617) 568-6311 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Aug 84 11:28 PDT From: susser.PASA@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: Carroll's election story title request I believe the story about the one man election is called , or something like that. I'm sure, though, that it's an Asimov story, and it can almost certainly be found in the anthology . Josh ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Aug 84 10:46:03 PDT From: Mark Trumpler Subject: Story Title The story about the election where one man voted is in Isaac Asimov's collection "Nine Tomorrows". I forget the title, but the book as a whole deals with possible futures of Earth ... -+- mark (trumpler@ucla-locus) ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 29 Aug 1984 11:56:51-PDT From: kenah%super.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Andrew Kenah) Subject: one man's vote To answer the question about the title/author of the story where one man voted to decide the election... Well to begin with, if I told you the name of the computer, you'd probably guess the author -- Multivac. Anyway, the title is "Franchise", the author Isaac Asimov, and I believe you can find it in the collection "Earth Is Room Enough". Andrew DEC at Nashua, N.H. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Aug 1984 22:52 EDT (Wed) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" To: CARROLL@USC-ISIB.ARPA Subject: Author/title request Date: Friday, 24 August 1984 09:45-EDT From: CARROLL at USC-ISIB.ARPA To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC Re: Author/title request Some years ago I read a story about a presidential election in which only one person voted. Statistical sampling had advanced to the point that one specially chosen citizen could be questioned about many different things and the outcome of any contest predicted, thus saving many megabux in election costs. It was a great honor to be the person chosen, even though you knew that about 1/2 of the country would be mad at you. It didn't even matter which candidate YOU personally wanted, just how your answers reflected society as a whole. The subject was hooked into a polygraph device, not because of fear of lying, but to help measure the exact strength of feelings when the verbal answers were given. Anyone know title/author? I think that the story is by Asimov, although I don't remember the title. I think it appeared in an anthology of his called Laughing Space though (but I can't be sure). ------------------------------ From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Date: 28 Aug 84 8:50:30 EDT Subject: DIRAC jumps There is a neat little book done by James Blish back in the sixties called THE QUINCUNX OF TIME, based on a shorter work called "Beep!" It features the instantaneous Dirac transmitter, which "vibrates" all space simultaneously. Blish points up sneakily that this implies it also vibrates all TIME simultaneously, and therefore every Dirac message received also includes ##every other## Dirac message ever sent or ever to be sent throughout eternity, sort of wadded up into an initial burst of noise before the transmission begins. One of the great original twists on an old SF "must-have;" the "subspace radio," "hyperwave", whatever have you. Recommended; you can read it in an evening. --Jeff Duntemann duntemann.wbst@xerox ------------------------------ Date: 28 Aug 84 14:52:40-PDT (Tue) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!trwrba!cepu!ucla-cs!ellen @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: more fantasy recommedations [if you lived here, you'd be home by now] another fave rave of mine is yet another trilogy, this by Elizabeth Scarborough (Aragonian trilogy), consisting of: Song of Sorcery The Unicorn Creed Bronwyn's Bane These are very humorous books, taking place in a world where almost everyone has at least one ancest-or/ress who would be considered mythical in our world. The chief characters are a hearth witch and a bard with siren blood in the first two books and the next generation in the third. I liked the humor, the style, and the fact that the main female characters were strong and capable. I read them after reading the Sword / Elfstones of Shanarra, two really ABYSMAL books in need of an editor with a firm hand and a quick scissors. The females were less than one dimensional, and while some of the males were nearly whole people, the books contained too much filler and not enough nourishment. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Aug 84 11:13:08-PDT (Tue) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!trwrba!cepu!ucla-cs!ellen @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: recommendations [do not read this line] i would recommend books by Sheri Tepper: a trilogy - King's Blood Four Necromancer's Nine Wizard's Eleven single book - The Revenants These seem to fit with the original poster's other books in that they are basically fantasy. The trilogy involves a gaming world, with some scientific surprises arising in following books. The Revenants involves an interesting quest group: hetero male, hetero female, gay male, gay female, and the main character who changes sex and other physical attributes at random ------------------------------ From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Date: 28 Aug 84 9:11:28 EDT Subject: Books belong in SF-LOVERS RE: Peter Reiher's suggestion that discussion of GRAVITY'S RAINBOW go off-line or into net.books... Nay, nay! Let me offer up some reasons: 1) That excludes me and other people; my company thinks unix are harem attendents and has no link to usenet. 2) Just because I (or someone else watching from the sidelines) don't't care for GRAVITY'S RAINBOW doesn't mean I'm not interested in what other people have to say about it. Lord knows, I might learn something. 3) Books BELONG on SF-LOVERS. Look, we debate endlessly why Scottie sticks his finger up his left nostril instead of his right; a couple of week's discussion of the uses of conscious verbal style would sit very well with me and others who see TV sets as performance degraded video monitors. 4) It makes it sound like GRAVITY'S RAINBOW is somehow "too good" to banter about on SF-LOVERS. Reverence is for Friendlies and other lower animals; nothing there is under (or over) the sun that doesn't deserve dissection now and then. Don't run off with the good topics just as I was starting to enjoy them! --Jeff Duntemann duntemann.wbst@xerox PS: Shutting down the Dirac for awhile...see y'all at LA! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27-Aug-84 18:39:58 PDT From: Lauren Weinstein Subject: "Mad Monster Party" "Mad Monster Party" was produced in 1967 using the so-called "Animagic" process--stop action filming of "puppets" combined with a minor amount of animation. "Mad" Magazine's Harvey Kurtzman co-authored the script, which is sort of a combination comedy/horror/spoof. Several famous people provided voices for characters which looked much as they did, including Boris Karloff, Phyllis Diller (who keeps referring to the Frankenstein monster as "Fang") and several others. Not really great, but it certainly qualifies as "interesting" viewing and is really one of a kind. As far as I know, no other projects where produced by these same people, though similar animation techniques have been fairly widely used, of course. --Lauren-- ------------------------------ Date: 28 Aug 84 11:01:00 EDT From: Alexander B. Latzko Subject: re v9#164 Greetings: I believe the movie you want it @UX(The Monster Mash) with the title song being made famous my Bobby (Boris) Pickett(?). If memory serves the plot revolves around Dr. Frankenstein having some of his friends over to convince his nephew ( a strait drugstore soda-jerk) to safeguard a secret formula. hope this helps alex ------------------------------ Date: 28 Aug 84 13:37:09 PDT (Tuesday) Subject: Buckeroo Banzai (book/movie) and Dreamscape (movie) From: Jerry I have recently seen both Buckeroo Banzai and Dreamscape and would recommend both. Non Spoiler Reviews: Buckeroo Banzai: Book & Movie Read/see in either order (slight preference for movie first) A great adventure film. Indian Jones updated for the 80's (more intellectual, humanist less macho bigot). However the film does lack a few things. At some points the dialog is difficult to understand (generally when the aliens are speaking english). there was also a continuity problem where the action doesnt flow smoothly. The main character could have used some more development. The effects are minimal and barely up to 80's standards. The BOOK is also good. It has some odd stylistic devices. It is written from the point of view of one of Buckeroo's buddies as a cronicle of events. The writer expects that the reader already knows the basic story (because its been on the news, etc.). The foreshadowing bears more likeness to spoilers. I think the book may have been a rush job since many scenes look like they were lifted right out of the script word for word, without even changing the format. (ie Buckeroo: "...." General XYZ: "..." Penny: "....." etc.) The background info supplied by the book does fill in many gaps left by the movie. It contains some great explainations of Buckeroo Banzai's theoretical physics. In a few short paragraphs he manages to tie particle physics, brain theory, extra dimensionality, and consiousness together and admit that there is probably a rational physical explanation for most events generally dismissed as magic (ie not real: telepathy, etc.). It is most believable and might even be valid. Dreamscape: (slight spoiler) While the effects were hardly spectacular (or even interesting), the movie as a whole was decent. I wont rate it as high as Ghostbusters (rolicking good fun) or BBanzai (good intellectual adventure), but it is worth seeing. Contary to info previously published in this list only short segments of DoD atom bomb detonations are used. They did most of the stuff with new matte paintings. (note that the matte lines are very visible in some sequences but this tended to enhance the dream effect). Also the Snake man is done with BOTH stop motion models and a man in a rubber suit. It works ok. The treatment of the main idea (psychic projection into someonelse's dreams) is pretty good. The main characters were well portrayed. It is good entertainment. (there is a rumor in the industry that Dreamscape may soon be appearing as part of a double feature, it might pay to wait a week or two). ~ Jerry ------------------------------ Date: 27 Aug 1984 13:47:01 PDT From: CARROLL@USC-ISIB.ARPA Subject: Star Trek in LA Regarding Los Angeles TV station 13's "uncut" Star Trek episodes: In the special "Leonard Nimoy Remembers", a cut from 'Space Seed' was shown, as a lead-in to TWoK discussion. The scene was the dinner party in Khan's honor on the Enterprise. (Note: not verbatim, but close, as I checked my video tape.) ---------- Kirk: You fled when mankind needed you most. Why? Were you afraid? Khan: We offered the world ORDER! Kirk: We? Khan: (slowly) Excellent, excellent. Reaction shot of Kirk. Shot of Khan rising, and excusing himself due to "fatigue". ---------- Later that night, the full 'Space Seed' episode was shown. At the dinner party, Khan replies with only ONE "excellent", and the immediately following shot is of him excusing himself. A few, though not many, moments were cut. Another scene in that episode occurs in Khan's room, while he is under guard. ---------- Khan: Captain, I find myself under guard, my door locked. Kirk: Unusual treatment for Khan Noonian Sing (sp?). Khan: Excellent. Kirk: The purpose of your starflight? ---------- I distinctly recall from several years ago, maybe at a con, that Khan, after his "Excellent", says something like "You of course identified me with your computer system". Kirk responds with "Maybe now you'll answer some questions", and then asks the purpose of the flight. True, only brief moments were cut, but together they make enough for extra commercials. The print quality (color, lack of scratches) was very good, but they shouldn't advertise the episodes as completely uncut if this was a sample of what they're going to show. However, butchered Star Trek is probably (to an extent) better than none. Steve (carroll@isib) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Aug 84 08:40 PDT From: WAHL.ES@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #163 Yes, it is true. Kirk's tombstone in the ST episode "Where No Man Has Gone Before" does read "James R. Kirk" Look carefully next time you get to see the episode. Maybe Mitchell was the one to goof up. Correction, "Space Seed" as shown on Ch. 13 recently, was cut. It was well-cut, for a change, but it was cut. Now, anyone out there interested in joining a ST fan club? Or have I already asked this dl? --Lisa ------------------------------ Date: 28 Aug 1984 06:44:53 PDT From: CARROLL@USC-ISIB.ARPA Subject: Space Seed > TWoK After seeing the Space Seed episode again, I began to wonder about one of the scenes in TWoK. When Chekov and his Captain first encounter Khan's 'home' on the Ceti Alpha planet, Chekov realizes where they are because of the words "Botany Bay" stenciled on some item (I don't recall what). However, in Space Seed, after Khan's people took the Enterprise, they abandoned their ship, and presumably, everything on it. Later, Kirk says they'll be dropped off at their new world enroute to starbase x (12?), as it would be only a slight detour. I don't think they were going back to pick up the Botany Bay, or any equipment from it. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 2-Sep SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #166 *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Sep 84 1917-EDT From: Dave Steiner (Temp. Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #166 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 2 Sep 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 166 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (2 msgs) & Pohl & Pynchon, Films - Dune Movie Picture Book, Television - Request for PBS's Lathe of Heaven, Miscellaneous - Maven (6 msgs) & Sentient Silicon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 28 Aug 84 20:20 PDT From: Woody.pasa@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Review: "Job -- A Comedy of Justice" Cc: Woody.Pasa@XEROX.ARPA Pico-review: Recommend Mini-review: [Non-spoiler] Heinlein has done it again. This novel is Heinlein at his best; though he does handle some of the subject material in ways which may be offensive to a strong believer in Judeo-Christianic beliefs, it is a wonderful book. I highly recommend it to everyone. Review: *** SPOILER WARNING!!! *** The main character in this new novel is a man by the name of Alexander Hergensheimer [Hiergenshemer, Hergenshiemer, I don't have the book with me.] He is an average person from a world where the Moral Majority would look like a bunch of radical left-wingers. During an ocean voyage, he finds himself in a bet with three other passengers, betting that he wouldn't walk through fire. [They're watching a group of natives from a south pacific island walk through fire.] Well, he walks through, and finds himself in a different (parallel?) world. Heinlein does use the consept of parallel worlds again, shuffling the main characters (Hergensheimer included) from "world" to "world." But the parallel world shuffling (which really aren't parallel worlds, but the tricks of powers higher up--if you don't understand, just read the book) doesn't get in the way of the book as it does in Heinlein's earlier book "The Number of the Beast." From here, the story begins. I won't say more about what happens in the book except to say that our "hero", Alex, goes through an ordeal similar to Job (the guy from the Book of Job in the Bible). My personal favorite part of the book goes something like: "Where are we? Are we in Hell, or Texas?" "Is there a difference?" Yeah, it's a fun book, Heinlein style. It actually manages to combine the flippent manner of "The Number of the Beast" with strong characterizations, an excellent (and solid) plot line, and leaves enough unanswered questions about how his universe works to make the story almost too believable. [ie, he doesn't sit down and explains why every sparrow falls in his universe, he just tells the story. Too many stories spend too much time explaining how things work; leaves too little to the reader's imagination.] Unless you are shocked by references (by Saint Peter, of all people) to the Holy Ghost as "the Spook", or that Yahwah (the christian God) cheats on bets with Loki (a devil in a different lore) by calling the Second Comming earlier than He promised, or that Texas is actually located in Hell; I highly recommend the book to you. Personally I enjoyed the book so much that as soon as I finished reading it, I reread the entire book again. - From the scattered brains of Bill Woody WOODY.PASA@XEROX.ARPA (until September 7) ** No Net Address ** (after September 7) "Charlie, can you get me the Spook on the line?" Pause. "Hi. Heard any new ones lately? No, neither have I. Hey, could You do me a favor?..." ------------------------------ Date: 25 Aug 84 18:11:37-PDT (Sat) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!rocksanne!sunybcs!gloria!colonel From: @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Job: A Comedy of Justice [Feast if you can and eat if you dare] What I should like to know is: do the characters spend a lot of time on long-winded political and social discussions? My chief reservation about Heinlein's previous works is that his characters pontificate ad nauseam. (Extreme example: _Time Enough for Love_, in which Heinlein had to insert extra segments to hold all the protagonist's "wisdom.") -- Col. G. L. Sicherman ...seismo!rochester!rocksanne!rocksvax!sunybcs!gloria!colonel ------------------------------ Date: 28 Aug 84 08:28:28 PDT (Tue) Cc: ihnp4!pegasus!naiman@ucb-vax Subject: Re: Heeche revisited From: "Jim Hester" The Heeche do not directly appear in THE MERCHANTS OF VENUS any more than they did in GATEWAY. TMoV is set in the same universe, but before Gateway was discovered. The basic plot concerns a tour guide/prospector and some rich tourists that go out to dig up Heeche relics on Venus. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Aug 1984 10:53-PDT Subject: Why pick on Pynchon? From: FEBER@USC-ISIB.ARPA Why is everyone picking on Pynchon? I, for one, found Gravity's Rainbow throroughly enjoyable, and even liked much of V. For some reason, since the publication of Slow Learner even the literary establishment has been cutting him apart. While I never thought of him as a major writer, I've always found him enjoyable, if slightly derivative (but I liked Dhalgren too). It amazes me that a compartively skilled writer such as Pynchon can be slammed on this list while such crude authors as Piers Anthony, whom I find unreadable, pass unscathed. BTW, If you like Pynchon you will probably NOT like Palimpsests. It is full of dead writing, continually straining after effects, and has almost no sense of humor. I was very disappointed in it as I bought it automatically based on the quality of the three previous books in the Ace series (Green Eyes - ok, The Wild Shore - superb, Neuromancer - very good). I hope Palimpsests is not indicative of the books to come in this series. (mark) ------------------------------ Date: Sat 25 Aug 84 14:55:38-PDT From: Steve Dennett Subject: Dune Movie Picture Book At the local Crown Books today I spotted a book titled "The Dune Picture Book" (or something to that effect). It's a "kid's" version of "Dune" written by Joan D. Vinge, full of photos from the (as yet unreleased) movie, and apparently meant to capitalize on it. Having just finished reading "Dune", I glanced through the picture book to see how much the filmakers had warped the original story. (I'm assuming that the book and the movie's script match pretty closely.) Wonderously enough, the only major digression I spotted was that the Paul brings the Fremen a device (developed by his father's staff) that transforms the Bene Gesserit "voice" into a weapon of destruction. If you've seen the previews, it's shown in the scene where the voice-over says "where a word can kill..." From the photos, the sets and special effects look like the best since the first Star Wars film. Linda Hall (award winner for her role in "The Year of Living Dangerously") plays Shadout Mapes. Anyway, I can hardly wait! -Cat Dennett {DENNETT@SRI-NIC.ARPA} ------------------------------ Date: 27 Aug 84 10:16:58 PDT (Monday) From: LFeinberg.es@XEROX.ARPA Subject: request for PBS's Lathe of Heaven Cc: "Wendell Jones".es@XEROX.ARPA We have heard that the PBS production of The Lathe of Heaven is excellent. Could anyone lend us a videotape of this? thanks,Lawrence ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 14 Aug 1984 12:17:59-PDT From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (The Stainless Steel Rat) Subject: Re: Mavens Being taken to task for my comment regarding 'maven', I'll defend my stance. What this has to do directly with SF I don't know, but here goes. The interesting thing, to me, is that the word does not appear in the following list of dictionaries, all of which I have examined personally today: Webster's Seventh New Collegiate (It is said to be in the Ninth) Webster's Third New International American Heritage Oxford American Mrs Byrne's Dictionary of Unusual, Obscure, and Preposterous Words (Josefa Heifetz Byrne, daughter of Jascha Heifetz the violinist) It does show up in the most recent supplement to the Oxford English, where it is defined as someone possessing great skill or understanding. It is called a colloquialism, from the Hebrew 'mevin', understanding. No mention of sex is made. Now comes the rebuttal. Consider this passage from the Curmudgeon's Dictionary, which is modelled after Ambrose Bierce's Devil's Dictionary: > DICTIONARY: A collection of what the editors fondly hope passes > for educational material, intended to record how words are used. > Widely believed to prescribe the correct usage of language, in > consequence of which belief the language is rapidly going to hell > in a handbasket. Dictionaries are not entirely without merit, > however; they often earn their editors large sums of money. If we draw a fairly direct conclusion from this incontrovertibly accurate definition, we arrive at the realization that dictionaries are NEVER fully current. 'Maven' is today used almost exclusively to describe females dealing with the occult, both in fiction and in real life. Given that we are subscribers to a science fiction (and fantasy) lovers' network, I think we should at least make a stab at using words in the way ordinarily accepted in the field. But then I've always been strongly opinionated and prejudiced against people who I feel won't be bothered to use language properly. Cheers, Dick Binder (The Stainless Steel Rat) UUCP: { decvax, allegra, ucbvax... }! decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-dosadi!binder ARPA: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Aug 84 20:03:28 EDT From: Morris M. Keesan Subject: Re: Maven Cc: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.arpa Maven may mean something feminine related to witchcraft in some archaic dialect of English as used in fantasy novels, but in contemporary American usage (e.g. as applied to David Gerrold as a "Star Trek maven") it's a Yiddish word, meaning an expert or authority. Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary even gives it with its Yiddish meaning of "one who is experienced or knowledgeable". I'd like to know what reference source Dick Binder is using for the definition he gives. I also wonder what the pronunciation of that meaning is. The Yiddish word rhymes with "raven". Morris M. Keesan keesan @ BBN-UNIX.ARPA {decvax,ihnp4,linus,wjh12,ima,wivax}!bbncca!keesan (UUCP) ------------------------------ Date: 16 Aug 84 18:56:02 PDT (Thu) Cc: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl Subject: Re: "Maven" From: Martin D. Katz Maybe the confusion is with the word "Yente". Yente is often used in a slightly derogatory manner to mean a female busybody. Maven is sometimes used to mean a know-it-all, and in that context it means almost the same thing as Yente. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Aug 84 01:38 EST From: Andrew D. Sigel Subject: "Maven" When I used the world "maven" to refer to David Gerrold, little did I dream of what I would be stirring up. I understood the word to mean "expert", but with the extra oomph that usually accompanies a Yiddish word (which is quite probably misinterpretation on my part, but I've always had the impression that a maven was not only an expert, but one who either let you know they were, or were well-known for their expertise, the latter applying to Mr. Gerrold more than the former). However, I'll settle for "expert" without the oomph. My thanks to JoSH and Bob Clements for clarifying my meanings. It was bad enough to be wrong about the source of Nyota without inadvertantly accusing Mr. Gerrold of being a female anything. Andrew Sigel ------------------------------ Date: 16 Aug 84 16:47:29-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!nsc!voder!gino @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Mavens I still side with the genderless meaning of `maven' = `expert', and its etymology from Yiddish. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Aug 84 15:24:46-PDT (Sat) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!akgua!mcnc!ncsu!uvacs!gmf @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Maven [insect spray] About the meaning of "maven" or "mavin": My two newest dictionaries give: "mavin ... an expert, esp. in everyday matters." (The Random House College Dictionary, Revised Version) "maven,mavin ... an expert or connoisseur, often esp. a self-proclaimed one." (Webster's New World, Second College Edition). "Leo Rosten's Treasury of Jewish Quotations" (copyright 1972) gives in the glossary: "Yiddish for a true expert, a seasoned judge of quality, a connoisseur." However, the point made by Dick Binder is (I think) well taken, given that the common usage is as he says (I didn't know it was). Compare the changing meanings of the word "hacker". Gordon Fisher ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Aug 84 12:48 PDT From: trainoff.pasa@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Sentient Silicon (Germainium? Superconducting Lead?...) Ah, yes. The old "Is is murder to turn off a computer?" question. It seems to me that the question only makes sence if the computer deems it so. People tend to assume that an intelligent computer would be essentially a human. This is very likely not going to be the case. It may be that the term just doesn't apply any more. A computer society would be quite different than a human society. Is the computer going to wail plaintively when you cut its power cord; is it murder? Is it "pain?" What if it is murder? Would the computer care? After all a computer necessarily will have a completely different time sence than a human. The machine will have "grown" up with the whole idea of backups. For all it knows it will be loaded back in again. I can't see how this would be any worse than running the NULL job for a while (or is that a lobotomy. Oh my English just can't handle this (reminds me of time travel varients on language (See HHGttG))). Programmer: "Hal, we just noticed a rather large programming bug in you so we loaded you back in from tape." Hal: "That's nice, how long was I asleep? Is the weather nice today?" I also find it unlikely that a machine intellegence will develop spontaneously as a fortutious accident. It will be the result of hard work by a team a intelligent researchers (so to speak). It will also be a gradual process. The first "sentient" computers will likely be rather dumb. The second generation will put the first to shame, etc. The interesting part comes when the program is more intelligent than the person that wrote it. Programmer: "Hal, you have been doing very well lately. As a matter of fact, I just gave you the equivalent of a graduate qualifier exam and you passed remarkably well. We have a new task for you. We have been working on this theory of artificial intelligence, and we would like you to take a look at it and give us you comments." Hal: "Sure, no problem... Oh, it is awfully wordy but the only obvious problem is that you made a mistake on page 347. You were on the right track. You can do much better if you only do this..." Suffering from advanced tapiocca syndrome, Steve Trainoff trainoff.pasa@XEROX.ARPA PS. Would you turn on the first program that was smarter than you? How would you feel knowing that before long, you will be obsolete. Oh yeah, the machine will be programmed to take good care of you, real good care. Woof, Woof. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 3-Sep SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #167 *** EOOH *** Date: 3 Sep 84 2230-EDT From: Dave Steiner (Temp. Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #167 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 3 Sep 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 167 Today's Topics: Books - Book Request (2 msgs) & Pohl & Heinlein & Asimov & Dune Trivia & Jokes, Films - The Mad Monster Party (3 msgs) & Star Wars I, Television - Star Trek (5 msgs), Miscellaneous - SFL Party Report ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 Aug 84 10:38:51-PDT (Wed) From: decvax!wivax!apollo!wendya @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: sf novel identity query I hope someone out there can answer this... Several years ago, I read a fascinating book which (if I am not confusing some of them with other books) included the following elements: - A genetically-improved human species which has been "quarantined" from ordinary humans, because the ordinaries don't quite know what else to do with them. (They were an experiment that worked too well.) - A captured girl from this race who deliberately "unravels" her entire memory back to nothing (i.e., to when she was born) so she won't be able to give away secrets of her race's plans to leave the planet to the ordinary humans. - Among the superior race, a custom of young people taking a year or so "off" before entering real adulthood to just wander around, learn things, and generally have a good time. - A very weird kind of "spaceship" hidden under a mountain which had to be "flown" in place continually until it was ready to leave the planet (carrying all the superior humans). Adults of the superior race shared the responsibility of "flying" the thing, which seems to have been quite a stressful job. I know this isn't a very complete or informative list, but I really enjoyed the book and would like to re-read it. However, I simply cannot remember either the author or the title. (I do remember what the book jacket looked like, but that is not much help.) Please reply via mail... adTHANKSvance. W. Christensen ------------------------------ Date: 31 Aug 84 11:21:02-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!jonab @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: sf novel identity query In article wendya@apollo.UUCP writes: >I hope someone out there can answer this... >Several years ago, I read a fascinating book which (if I >am not confusing some of them with other books) included >the following elements: > - A genetically-improved human species which has been > "quarantined" from ordinary humans, because the > ordinaries don't quite know what else to do with > them. (They were an experiment that worked too well.) > - A captured girl from this race who deliberately > "unravels" her entire memory back to nothing (i.e., > to when she was born) so she won't be able to > give away secrets of her race's plans to leave > the planet to the ordinary humans. etc. etc. The book is the first of a trilogy by M. A. Foster called "The Gameplayers of Zan". I don't remember the names of the other books. Jon Biggar {allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,sdccsu3}!sdcrdcf!jonab ------------------------------ Date: 30 Aug 84 1:10:59-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian From: @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: re: Heechee revisited >> I'm told, but have not read, that the Heechee appear >> in THE MERCHANTS OF VENUS. >> >> Neil Ostrove cbosgd!ost > Does anyone know if this is true ? > > Ephrayim J. Naiman Yes, it's true. "The Merchants of Venus" is the first story about the Heechee. It first appeared in the 8/72 issue of WORLDS OF IF magazine. It can also be found in, at least, THE BEST SCIENCE FICTION FOR 1973 (ed. by Forrest J Acker- man), THE FUTURE NOW (ed. by Robert Hoskins), and the Pohl story collection, THE GOLD AT STARBOW'S END. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 30 Aug 84 6:22:07-PDT (Thu) From: decvax!mcnc!duke!ndd @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Job: A Comedy of Justice Yes, Job is another of Heinlein's books where pontificating to the reader seems to be the main purpose. It's quite a bit like The Number of the Beast in that respect. Somewhat disappointing; probably not worth the hard-cover price ($16.95, I believe) unless you enjoy being preached at, or want to hear about Heinlein's trip to the South Pacific. I suspect that the first part of the book is an attempt to write off that trip as a business expense, but then the whole thing seems forced. Ned Danieley duke!ndd ------------------------------ Date: 30 Aug 84 6:25:31-PDT (Thu) From: decvax!mcnc!duke!ndd @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Carroll's election story title request The title is "Franchise", and it is indeed in Earth is Room Enough (Fawcett Crest, 1970, $.75 in paper). One of Asimov's Multivac stories. Ned Danieley duke!ndd ------------------------------ Date: 31 Aug 84 11:08:11-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!bllklly @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Dune trivia I guess everyone's rereading Dune to have it fresh in mind for the movie release. (I met two other people reading it in two days.) Did anyone else notice the hidden reference to Poul Anderson? -- Bill Kelly {allegra, ihnp4, seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!bllklly 1210 West Dayton St/U Wisconsin Madison/Mad WI 53706 ------------------------------ Date: 28 Aug 84 12:05:01-PDT (Tue) From: decvax!genrad!grkermit!masscomp!bonnie!clyde!watmath!watdcsu! From: haapanen @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: more Larry Niven Lightbulb Jokes (obscurer) How many Protectors does it take to change a lightbulb? [I haven't figured this one out yet. Replies (by mail) appreciated.] Tom {allegra, decvax, ihnp4}!watmath!watdcsu!haapanen ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 30 Aug 1984 01:30:40-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Jerry Boyajian) Subject: re: THE MAD MONSTER PARTY From: Peter G. Trei > VERY late the other night I saw the first 45 minutes or so of a > very strange, funny movie. I would like to recommend it as a con > film, but I do not know the year, studio, or much else . The > movies' title seemed to be 'The Mad Monster Party', and was done to > full length with stop- motion animation using puppets. The NYT > listing was totally inaccurate, but on internal evidence I would > place it somewhere in the mid-Sixties to early Seventies. The plot, > as far as I saw it, concerned Dr. Frankenstein inviting many of the > worlds leading monsters to his island (in the Bahamas?!) for a > convention and retirement party. > I greatly enjoyed the part I saw, and would like to known > more about this movie. Who made it? When? Did they make anything > else like it? I've never seen the film myself, so I can't do any more than give the information for it that appears in Walt Lee's REFERENCE GUIDE TO FANTASTIC FILMS, VOL. 2 (LA: Chelsea-Lee Books, 1973): 1967 Videocraft-Embassy color ani puppet feature. Probably filmed in Japan. Exec Producer: Joseph E. Levine Producer: Arthur Rankin, Jr. Director: Jules Bass Screenplay: Len Korobkin & Harvey Kurtzman Music & Lyrics: Maury Laws & Jules Bass Voices: Boris Karloff, Phyllis Diller, Alan Swift, Gale Garnett Fantasy-Horror-musical-comedy (mad scientist invites Dracula, Frankenstein & Monster & Mrs. Monster, Jekyll/Hyde, a sea monster, the Invisible Man, a werewolf, and others to his island for a party; King Kong crashes the party) --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ From: Steve Platt Subject: Mad Monster Party Date: Sat, 1 Sep 84 00:18 EDT John Stanley's ^SCreature Feature Movie Guide^S lists :: ^BMAD MONSTER PARTY(1967).^B "Animagic puppet horror-comedy film, scenario co-authored by Harvey Kurtzman, Mad magazine genius. Puppets are melange of famous cinema monstrosities. Frankenstein Monster, Dracula, Wolfman, the Creature, Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, Mummy and Hunchback of Notre Dame. Boris Karloff provides Baron Frankenstein's voice. Sounds interesting. Perhaps at Texas next year? -steve "don't you hate these dumb quotes at the bottom of the message?" ------------------------------ Date: 29 Aug 84 7:01:05-PDT (Wed) From: decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!microsoft!fluke!moriarty From: @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Movie Request. It was made by Rankin-Bass sometime in 1968 (I know, 'cus I saw it as an eight-year old in Minneapolis!). I don't remember much about it, but I believe this was the only one of its kind (unless others were done for Saturday Morning TV). I particularly remember Phyliss Diller being one of the animated monsters, a role which seemed particularly appropriate. "It looks just like a photon pod... but in verrry bad taste." Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc. UUCP: {cornell,decvax,ihnp4,sdcsvax,tektronix,utcsrgv}!uw-beaver \ {allegra,gatech!sb1,hplabs!lbl-csam,decwrl!sun,ssc-vax} -- !fluke!moriarty ARPA: fluke!moriarty@uw-beaver.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 30 Aug 1984 16:52:10 EDT (Thursday) From: Vicki Kanrek Subject: Star Wars I (?!?) - more [worthless] info My sister got the following letter from Christine Barbour at Lucasfilm Ltd. in response to her questions about the CINEFANTASTIQUE article: "Dear Marilyn: Thank you for writing. The news you read in Cinefastastique Magazine is completely incorrect. The next films have not been written yet, let alone beginning production. Mr. Lucas is taking a well deserved vacation from theatrical motion pictures to work more with the company of Lucasfilm and to executive produce a 2 hour television movie currently in production. It is presently called THE EWOK ADVENTURE and will air on ABC television during the Thanksgiving/Christmas holiday season this year. Thank you for sending Mr. Lucas your opinions and comments. We'll just have to wait and see what the next films will be like, when he does have the time to start working on them. Again, thank you for writing, and remember the Force is with you... Always!" Well, aside from basically not saying anything, there is one small item of some importance therein: there WILL be more films. I really thought Lucas was going to give up on this. Any comments? Vicki Kanrek (vjk @ bbn-unix) ------------------------------ Date: 25 Aug 84 12:05:11-PDT (Sat) From: decvax!cwruecmp!atvax!ncoast!bsa @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #160 [Line-eater? WHAT line-ea... (burp)] > From: Gubbins@RADC-MULTICS.ARPA > Kirk's tomestone in Where No Man Has Gone Before, incorrectly reads > in the Blish novelizations as James R. Kirk (this is where you got > the R. from). Anyone know what, if readable at all, the tomestone > in the series read??? I checked... unless they got a weird blur there, it said JAMES R. KIRK. Now what do we do... major inconsistency! :-) --bsa -- Brandon Allbery: decvax!cwruecmp{!atvax}!ncoast!bsa: R0176@CSUOHIO.BITNET 6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, OH 44131 <> (216) 524-1416 ------------------------------ Date: 30 Aug 84 7:57:34-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot From: @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: JAMES R. KIRK I always thought the name on the tombstone was wrong on purpose--like a clue that the things that were going on were not real, and by looking carefully you could see the flaws in the appearance of the town. Who knows? Maybe they nabbed the wrong James Kirk? "Oops! Sorry, we set this up for the *other* Enterprise." :-) "Ssssmile when you sssay that, ssssssstranger!" L SssssssChabot UUCP: ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot ARPA: ...chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl.ARPA USFail: DEC, MR03-1/K20, 2 Iron Way, Marlborough, MA 01752 ------------------------------ Date: 31 Aug 84 5:56:40-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!grendel!avolio @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Space Seed > TWoK The only problem I had with TWoK compared to Space Seed is that Khan recognizes Chekov. Chekov wasn't in the series when Khan and the Enterprise crew first met. (OKAY! I supose Chekov could have been quite junior then working handing out towels in the gym, or something...) -- Frederick Michael Avolio, DEC -- Gov't Projects Group, 301/731-4100x4227 {seismo,decvax}!grendel!avolio ------------------------------ Date: 2 Sep 1984 19:56 EDT (Sun) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" Subject: Space Seed ==> TWOK The fate of the Botany Bay is never made clear in the episode. They just sort of forget about it. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30-Aug-84 18:53:36 PDT From: Lauren Weinstein Subject: "uncut" Star Trek comes to L.A. Star Trek is cycling back to the L.A. area again, this time with a slightly new twist. KCOP (13) claims that when Trek returns this Fall, it will be with new, uncut prints made from original 35mm masters. Just thought some of you Trekkies would want to know--there are probably some scenes buried in there that haven't been seen locally since the original airings on NBC. --Lauren-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Sep 1984 03:15 EDT From: RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: SFL Party Report Yes folks, this is the ultimate in on the spot reporting. Live, from LA, its the SFL Party. As of this typein (around midnight), the following people are in attendance. tektronix!vice!keithl ron@brl rg.jmturn@mit-oz geoff@sri-csl ccvaxa!wombat jaffe@rutgers rg.cutter@mit-oz marick@compion-vms blarson@usc-ecl dave@ucla-cs forward@mc mdp@sail dhare@sri-csl care.tym@office zellich@office-3 rg.cutter@mit-oz coleman@sdcsvax.ucsd kirk.tym@office billw@sri-kl This is only a partial list, I didn't get everyone's name. BTW, this is being typed on a model 100 hooked with an acoustic modem to a TAC to MC to OZ. Gah! James ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 5-Sep SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #168 *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Sep 84 1048-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #168 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 5 Sep 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 168 Today's Topics: Administrivia - Temporary Moderator, Books - Asimov & Elgin & Pynchon & Book Reviews, Films - Dune, Miscellaneous - Awards (2 msgs) & Worldcon & Conservation of Momentum ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 Sep 84 10:26:02 EDT From: Saul Subject: Temporary Moderator I'd like to take this opportunity to thank David Steiner (Steiner@Rutgers) for taking over this list while I was on vacation at Worldcon. Sorry more of you could not attend the convention and the SFL party on Friday night. And now, back to our regularly scheduled digest..... ------------------------------ Date: 31 Aug 84 20:36:23-PDT (Fri) From: sun!qubix!jdb @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Story Title > From: Mark Trumpler > > The story about the election where one man voted is in Isaac > Asimov's collection "Nine Tomorrows". There is also such an incident in Cerebus (the aardvark) #44. "Last time one, this time four. It's like watching gangrene spread." Dr Memory ...{decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!decwrl!qubix!jdb ------------------------------ Date: 4 Sep 84 11:01:16 PDT (Tuesday) From: Hoffman.es@XEROX.ARPA Subject: NATIVE TONGUE by S. H. Elgin NATIVE TONGUE by S. H. Elgin, DAW paperback, August 1984, $3.50 Mini-precis: In 1991, the 25th Amendment assured the supremacy of males in every aspect of life. In the late 22nd and early 23rd century, the 13 families of Linguists are the sole interpreters of the hundreds of alien languages, though non-humanoid languages are beyond even their skills. The book deals with language learning, language inventing, and the cold war between the sexes. Among the topics: The Linguist women have been creating a 'women's language' for generations. The Linguists are indispensable to society and are highly resented. The government has a failing secret crash program to break a non-humanoid language. Mini-review: Recommended. Lots of good ideas in an intriguing environment (mostly within a Linguist enclave). Quite a few well-developed characters and sub-plots. Well written, but occasional sloppy copy-editing (typos). Suzette Haden Elgin is a professor of linguistics and, it says here, author of nine major science fiction and fantasy novels since 1969, though I've never heard of her before. The ideas in this book reminded me of early Ian Watson and of many feminist SF writers. Rodney Hoffman ------------------------------ Date: 4 Sep 84 13:20:22-PDT (Tue) From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!brucec @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Why pick on Pynchon? >> It amazes me that a compartively skilled writer such as Pynchon >> can be slammed on this list while such crude authors as Piers >> Anthony, whom I find unreadable, pass unscathed. Agreed, Pynchon is a *skilled* writer, it's just that not all of us are willing to bull through all the extraneous stuff he throws in to prove it. I generally liked "V" (even the South African garden party sequence, which did little to further anything else in the book), and I often wish that I had been able to get past page 100 in "Gravity's Rainbow." My tolerance for self-indulgent writing is just too low. We do agree about Piers Anthony. I have actually read several of his novels, and after each one I have asked myself why I bothered. The last straw was the "Planet of Tarot" series, which I read in a fit of boredom while on a long business trip. I actually emulated that old cliche of throwing the book across the room, shouting "Never again!" What irritates me is that he couldn't even get his research on the Tarot right. I could excuse his miserable writing and blatant sexism (he does know that women are human, doesn't he?) if he could just get *something* right. Bruce Cohen UUCP: ...!tektronix!orca!brucec CSNET: orca!brucec@tektronix ARPA: orca!brucec.tektronix@rand-relay USMail: M/S 61-183 Tektronix, Inc. P.O. Box 1000 Wilsonville, OR 97070 ------------------------------ Date: 4 Sep 1984 14:57 PDT (Tue) From: Tony Li Subject: Star Trek Book Reviews The Final Reflection, John M. Ford, Pocket Science Fiction #16 Micro-review: Fascinating. Mini-review: This one is definitely different. Instead of the usual Enterprise crew roaming the galaxy, this is completely about Klingons. I found it quite good. It's a biography of a Klingon named Venn from the time of his youth through his rise in the Imperial Fleet. What is most fascinating about this book is the treatment of Klingons. Remember the Klingoneese that is spoken in the movies? Well, the dialogue here starts out like that. Somehow it seems very authentic, although Mr. Ford does seem to taper out of this quite quickly. The book is mostly historical, and covers early Klingon-Federation history. Well worth reading.... The Tears Of The Singers, Melinda Snodgras, Pocket Science Fiction #19 Micro-review: Yuk. Phewy. PU. Mini-review: Well, this is pure garbage. As far as I can tell, Melinda took a Harlequin romance and put it to Star Trek. The fixiation on Uhura is pretty strong. Great if you've just had a lobotomy, otherwise, forget it. LL+P, Tony ;-) ------------------------------ Date: 4 Sep 84 12:30 PDT From: Woody.pasa@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: Dune Movie Picture Book Cc: Trainoff.pasa@XEROX.ARPA Date: Sat 25 Aug 84 14:55:38-PDT From: Steve Dennett Subject: Dune Movie Picture Book ... Having just finished reading "Dune", I glanced through the picture book to see how much the filmakers had warped the original story. (I'm assuming that the book and the movie's script match pretty closely.) Wonderously enough, the only major digression I spotted was that the Paul brings the Fremen a device (developed by his father's staff) that transforms the Bene Gesserit "voice" into a weapon of destruction. If you've seen the previews, it's shown in the scene where the voice-over says "where a word can kill..." ... -Cat Dennett We're in trouble now, folks. I've had reservations about "Dune: The Movie" since it was announced three million years ago. But, now: how can you fit in a device like the one above into a perfectly good story ("Dune: The Book") without screwing it up? I mean, what are the Fremen going to do with the device? Look at it, chuckle, and continue on like "Dune: The Book?" What I don't believe is that somewhere, in the vast wasteland known as Hollywood, there is a movie script writer with the nerve to think that he can take an excellent book and improve it for the movies. [No arguments that the movie script writer isn't in Hollywood; you know what I mean anyways...] The best a script writer can do is try to fit the book into the two hours allowed for a movie. And he (whoever he is) had the nerve to fit in a new device. *sigh* And now I know why I got out of Filmmaking and into Computer Science. It was a wise choice on my part. From the failing fingers of - Bill Woody P.S. Oh, I still can't wait for the movie! I just don't expect the quality of the book, that's all. [Come on, with a book THAT good, do you 'spect a better movie???] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Sep 84 01:26:34 mdt From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley) Subject: Some recent awards and nominations Here are some recent awards and award nominations for novels and stories, culled from recent reading: World Fantasy Award nominees (from LOCUS #284): Novels: THE DRAGON WAITING, John M. Ford PET SEMATARY, Stephen King THE WANDERING UNICORN, Manuel Mujica Lainez TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON, R.A. MacAvoy THE ARMAGEDDON RAG, George R.R. Martin LYONESSE, Jack Vance Novellas: 'The Lurking Duck', Scott Baker (Omni 12/83) 'The Monkey's Bride', Michael Bishop (HEROIC VISIONS) 'Nunc Dimittis', Tanith Lee (DODD, MEAD GALLERY OF HORROR) 'The Red Hawk', Elizabeth A. Lynn (Cheap Street) 'Black Air', Kim Stanley Robinson (F&SF 3/83) Short Stories: 'The Silent Cradle', Leigh Kennedy (SHADOWS 6) 'Elle est Trois (La Mort)', Tanith Lee (WHISPERS 4) 'The Hundred-Year Christmas', David Morrell (Donald M. Grant pub.) 'Solitario's Eyes', Lucius Shepard (F&SF, 9/83) 'Into Whose Hands', Karl Edward Wagner, (WHISPERS 4) 'Wong's Lost and Found Emporium', William Wu (Amazing 5/83) The 1984 John W. Campbell Memorial Award, given for the best novel of 1983 (not the same as the Campbell award given to best new writer at WorldCons) went to Gene Wolfe for THE CITADEL OF THE AUTARCH. (Also from LOCUS #284.) Here is how SCIENCE FICTION REVIEW (#52) reported the SCIENCE FICTION CHRONICLE Awards (voted on by readers of SF CHRONICLE): Best Novel: THE ANUBIS GATES, Tim Powers Best Novella: 'Her Habiline Husband', Michael Bishop Best Novellette: 'Black Air', Kim Stanley Robinson Best Short Story: 'The Peacemaker', Gardner Dozois Still haven't read most of these, but now I have an idea where to look. By the way, the 35th anniversary F&SF is now out and it has some really good stuff in it -- check out especially the Effinger story (perhaps the funniest thing I've read all year) and the Shepard story... Any Hugo updates yet? Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ Date: 3 Sep 84 12:57:05-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!tektronix!tekchips!vice!keithl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: HUGO Awards! This year's HUGO's: From a portable terminal at the Anaheim Hilton: BEST NOVEL: STARTIDE RISING by David Brin BEST NOVELLA: CASCADE POINT by Timothy Zahn BEST NOVELETTE: BLOOD MUSIC by Greg Bear BEST SHORT STORY: SPEECH SOUNDS by Octavia Butler BEST NONFCTION BOOK: ENCYCLOPEDIA OF SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY v3 by Donald Tuck BEST DRAMATIC PRESENTATION: RETURN OF THE JEDI BEST PROFESSIONAL EDITOR: Shawna McCarthy (IASFM) BEST PROFESSIONAL ARTIST: Michael Whelan BEST SEMIPRO MAGAZINE: LOCUS BEST FANZINE: FILE 770 BEST FAN WRITER: Mike Gleyer BEST FAN ARTIST: Alexis Gilliland JOHN W. CAMPBELL AWARD: R. A. MacAvoy Congratulations to all, etc. tektronix!vice!hilton!anaheim!6605!trs80-100!keithl Keith Lofstrom uucp: {ucbvax,decvax,chico,pur-ee,cbosg,ihnss}!tektronix!vice!keithl CSnet: keithl@tek ARPAnet:keithl.tek@rand-relay ------------------------------ Date: 4 Sep 84 12:06:26 PDT (Tuesday) From: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Worldcon: The High Point Cc: chris@UCB-ARPA.ARPA, comay@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA, Conde.PA@XEROX.ARPA, Cc: edward@UCB-ARPA.ARPA, leres@UCB-ARPA.ARPA, Mackey.PA@XEROX.ARPA, Cc: marshall@UCB-ARPA.ARPA, Poskanzer.pa@XEROX.ARPA (SmegmaLord), Cc: Riggle.PA@XEROX.ARPA, sarge%UCBCORY@UCB-VAX.ARPA, Cc: taliesin%UCBONYX@UCB-VAX.ARPA, Yamamoto.PA@XEROX.ARPA, Cc: Yang.PA@XEROX.ARPA I could only attend one day (Saturday), so my opinion of the High Point of the convention is necessarily skewed. I'm sorry I missed the Ice Cream Social, the Elfquest party, and of course, the SFL-Party. Anyway, for me, the High Point of the convention was the Elfquest panel. Richard Pini gave a HILARIOUS slide presentation. Really first-rate stuff. Did anyone else attend? First runner-up was the celebrity SFWA Roast of Gordy Dickson. This being my first Worldcon, I was pleased to finally see the faces of such names as: Jerry Pournelle ("No one has ever accused me of being polite"), Bob Bloch (what a wise-guy!), Norman Spinrad, Randall Garrett, Harry Harrison, Robert Silverberg, Marta Randall, Fred Pohl, Larry Niven ("We drank propellent") Poul Anderson, and of course, Gordon Dickson himself. You know the old rag about how it is always disappointing to meet the person behind the legend ... well I'm glad to say that an exception to the rule has been found. Perry ------------------------------ Date: 29 Aug 84 13:19:19-PDT (Wed) From: ihnp4!zehntel!varian!vaxwaller!cw @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Conservation of Momentum (and MT) This item was inspired partly by the talk on matter transmission, but is not really about matter transmission. I'll mention a tie in between the two at the end. One problem with interstellar travel that I've hardly ever seen addressed (maybe because sf-writers aren't LOOKING for problems, just trying to explain away the ones people are already likely to know) is that of conservation of momentum. Isaac Asimov did make some use of the concept in 'The Gods Themselves', but otherwise it has been ignored, even by people like John Campbell, who generally seems very conscientious about scientific accuracy. In one of his novels, I think it was called 'The Mightiest Machine', his characters have a device that makes the random motion of molecules in an object become un-random; it can be used to make an object shoot of in a given direction, the energy being provided by the heat energy of the object, which becomes extremely cold. Nothing shoots off in the opposite direction however, so momentum is not conserved. A SF writer doesn't need to go around destroying planets to provide energy to move a space ship around all the time, he or she only needs to be able to borrow some for the voyage, then put it back. If a rocket takes off for Alpha Centauri, it gets momentum by providing momentum to exhaust gases in the opposite direction. When the ship gets where it is going it loses this momentum by giving it to more exhaust gases. Now the rocket ship is in a different place, but you have two clouds of gas hurtling away from each other. Physics majors can check me on this but I do not believe that the center of mass of the universe ever changes during all of this. Suppose somebody invents an anti-gravity device, and his space ship "pushes" against a planet to get going for Centauri, then pushes against another planet to stop. Now these two planets are moving apart ever so slightly, or not so slightly if the ship got up to extremely high speeds. So far no energy is recovered or put back, but maybe the ship could use its anti-grav in a reverse direction and pull back on the same planet that it started from, which is what normal gravity does, the kinetic energy of the two objects has to go somewhere, maybe it can be recovered and stored. Now the ship is at point B, nothing is hurtling away from anything else anymore than it was before, and presumably the center of mass of the universe is still the same because the planet has moved over a little bit to balance the greater displacement of the ship. How soon the ship can arrive at a certain place is determined by how much energy it can beg borrow or steal for the duration. If the ship put a lot of energy into the motion, and got there in a short period of time, would the distribution of mass be the same as if the voyage had been more leisurely? A similar situation would be a car with batteries and electric motors/generators that could brake by recharging its battery. Except for friction losses it could start and stop and travel all around the planet, momentum being transferred back and forth between planet and car. Thinking about this I can't help but wonder if momentum isn't the most primitive concept in physics. What is the tie-in with matter transmission? Well, one or maybe two people pointed out that one way around the problems brought up about matter transmission was that two places in the universe could be juxtaposed by bending the universe through another dimension and having the person or whatever just step across the now short space. Momentum could also be conserved by this method, but would the center of mass of the universe still be the same? What other implications would there be? Regards, Carl Weidling ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 6-Sep SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #169 *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Sep 84 1200-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #169 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 6 Sep 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 169 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein & Jokes (2 msgs) & Reviews (2 msgs) & Story Requests Answered (3 msgs) & Story Request & Sentient Silicon (2 msgs), Films - Buckaroo Banzai (2 msgs), Television - Star Trek ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 4 Sep 84 12:14 PDT From: Woody.pasa@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: Re: Job Date: 25 Aug 84 18:11:37-PDT (Sat) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!rocksanne!sunybcs!gloria!colonel From: @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Job: A Comedy of Justice [Feast if you can and eat if you dare] What I should like to know is: do the characters spend a lot of time on long-winded political and social discussions? My chief reservation about Heinlein's previous works is that his characters pontificate ad nauseam. (Extreme example: _Time Enough for Love_, in which Heinlein had to insert extra segments to hold all the protagonist's "wisdom.") -- Col. G. L. Sicherman No, he didn't. Which is surprising; I think Heinlein slipped up there. Fairly un-Heinlein like, I'll admit. I suppose He's back-sliding. From the scrambled remains of - Bill Woody ------------------------------ Date: 3 Sep 84 7:53:52-PDT (Mon) From: ihnp4!wucs!nz @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Re: more Larry Niven Lightbulb Jokes (obscurer) > How many Protectors does it take to change a lightbulb? > None, it's a Protector-designed bulb so it never burns out. ...nz@wucs (Washington U, where something almost happens sometimes) ------------------------------ Date: 4 Sep 84 8:22:25-PDT (Tue) From: hplabs!zehntel!zinfandel!berry @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Re: more Larry Niven Lightbulb Jokes (obscurer) How many Protectors does it take to change a light bulb? Only one, but you better find the one who built it... Berry Kercheval Zehntel Inc. (ihnp4!zehntel!zinfandel!berry) (415)932-6900 ------------------------------ Date: 2 Sep 84 20:01:06-PDT (Sun) From: hplabs!tektronix!tekchips!kentb @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Reviews (mini-spoiler) Following are reviews of recent books: "Palimsests," by Carter Scholz and Glenn Harcourt, and "Home Sweet Home, 2010 A.D.," by Mack Reynolds with Dean Ing. First the bad news-- Title- Palimpsests Author(s)- Carter Scholz and Glenn Harcourt Editor- Terry Carr Publisher- Ace Science Fiction Publishing date- September 1984 "Palimpsests," is the latest in the new (old) Ace Science Fiction Specials series, a series intended to introduce new writers and unusual styles to readers of presumably discerning taste. The only other book in this series that I have read was "The Wild Shore," by Kim Stanley Robinson, a book that by its cover quotes was the herald of a new age. I was less than impressed, and I haven't read the other two books that have appeared in the series. When "Palimpsests" showed up however, it looked good enough to risk another try at a, "...novel of high quality and imagination." A palimsest is a trace of writing on old parchments that have been scraped clean and reused. Since this practice was common among early Christian monks reusing parchments originally containing pagan writings, the practice of analyzing palimsests is of great value to archeologists, since many early Christian parchments are still extant. The story revolves around a young archeologist named Camus, who finds a kind of palimsest from the future at a dig in Germany. Camus then discovers that the artifact he has discovered is wanted by both the superpowers as well as several provate interests. One of these private research institutes, located in far Alaska, captures the object and the protaganist in question, and proceeds to experiment with both, culminating in a heroic world (universe) saving effort by the confused Camus. It doesn't sound like much of a plot to me either. In his introduction Terry Carr defies anyone to read the first chapter and not go on to read the rest of the book. As far as that goes, he was right, the first chapter sets up the rest of the book as well as any I have ever read. Unfortunately Carter and Scholz have real problems with pacing. About two thirds of the way through all of the tensions of that marvelous first chapter have been resolved, and the conclusion came as a relief, not because the world was no longer in danger, but because I no longer had to read the drivel that was passing as an exploration of the nature of time. I enjoy reading books that challenge my basic beliefs, but it is not necessary to pound such challenges into poi to get a point across. All in all a fair book, and it probably could be read for the first chapter alone. I can't honestly recommend that, tho, unless you want to feel compeled to wade through some pea-soup prose later. Now the good news: Title- Home Sweet Home, 2010 A.D. Author- Mack Reynolds with Dean Ing Publisher- Dell Publication date- September 1984 Fun. Fun, fun, fun. The only thing not fun about this book was the copyright being in the name of the literary estate of Mack Reynolds. I had not known that he was dead. Farewell Lagrangia. The book looks like this: It is about a wacko extended family in the aforementioned year, and the equally (if less delightfully) wacko society in which they live. One subplot involves a hit man who is after a radical political writer the family is unwittingly harboring. The other concerns the last Indians in America and their attempt to hold onto their land in the face of government attempts to grab the uranium on it. In the end the government and the status quo take it in the tuckus, but everyone else seems to be satisfied. The family, surnamed Chutzba (isn't that Yiddish for ...), reminds me of what Heinlein's extended families would turn out to be in practice. Some members smart, some dumb, some beautiful, some not, and things get done when the spirit moves. Nobody is a superbeing, but between them things seem to work out. The society they live in depends on welfare to support the populace, since automation has taken over all the "real jobs" except government. The family is quite happy with this, since it leaves them time for farming, drinking, and sex, definitely not in that order. So sit back, kick off your sandals, pour yourself some applejack, and enjoy. But don't let Ruthie corner you, she's only 9, you know. The preceding submitted from the flying fingers of: Kent Beck Tektronix, Inc. M/S 50-662 POB 500 Beaverton, OR 97077 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Sep 84 17:30:02 cdt From: David Wilson I can't help but agree with DUNTEMANN (7AUG84) about FUZZIES AND OTHER PEOPLE. Also, I agree with his opinions about 2001 and 2010. (although I thought that both were trash instead of just 2010) However, I must somewhat vehemently disagree with his opinions concerning Herbert's DUNE 'series'. I will admit that it does seem as if Herbert writes every other book with the sole intention of paying off some mortgage, but it is possible that DUNE MESSIAH and GOD EMPEROR OF DUNE were required to set up the situations which made their successors so fascinating. Yes, I did find CHILDREN OF DUNE and HERETICS OF DUNE to be quite fascinating---they provided a depth of realism not found in most of the societies created by sci-fi authors that I am familiar with. Further, I really don`t care whether or not the DUNE series has any 'socially redeeming literary value', I got quite a kick out of all of them and recommend that if you have never bothered to finish the series (or even start it), you should do so. I could use a little advice: I vastly enjoyed Elizabeth A. Lynn's book which starred Rhani, Zed, et cetera (my mind is a little numbed by a few too many Beck Dark's to recall the title) but I wonder if her other books are as good and if she has published anything in the same vein. Help me please?? I also strongly recommend Julian May's PLIOCENE EXILE series. Who originally introduced eroticism/pornography into sci-fi? Was it perhaps an obvious step in the evolution of the genre? Might it not be a sub-genre in itself? Todd Smith (therion on various un-netted systems--you can PO Box 2671 communicate w/ me via wookie or snail mail) Rice U. Houston, TEXAS 77252 [Have pity on we the poor uneducated souls who have only the rarest opportunity to screw around on a non-educational (i.e., non-restricted) system] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Sep 84 19:26:55 EDT From: Ron Natalie Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #167 This plot also sounds similar to AE Vogt's SLAN. This is an old book (I believe my paperback copy was printed before I was born) but has been reprinted recently. -Ron ------------------------------ Date: 3 Sep 84 11:50:29-PDT (Mon) From: decvax!cwruecmp!atvax!ncoast!bsa @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Author/title request > From: CARROLL@USC-ISIB.ARPA > Some years ago I read a story about a presidential election in > which only one person voted. Statistical sampling had advanced to > the point that one specially chosen citizen could be questioned > about many different things and the outcome of any contest > predicted, thus saving many megabux in election costs. It was a > great honor to be the person chosen, even though you knew that > about 1/2 of the country would be mad at you. It didn't even > matter which candidate YOU personally wanted, just how your > answers reflected society as a whole. The subject was hooked into > a polygraph device, not because of fear of lying, but to help > measure the exact strength of feelings when the verbal answers > were given. Anyone know title/author? "Polygraph", indeed! It was one of Asimov's Multivac stories. I don't remember which. --bsa ------------------------------ Date: 5 Sep 84 9:41:59-PDT (Wed) From: hplabs!pesnta!wjvax!paul @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Author/title request >> From: CARROLL@USC-ISIB.ARPA >> Some years ago I read a story about a presidential election in >> which only one person voted. Statistical sampling had advanced >> to the point that one specially chosen citizen could be >> questioned about many different things and the outcome of any >> contest predicted, thus saving many megabux in election costs. >> It was a great honor to be the person chosen, even though you >> knew that about 1/2 of the country would be mad at you. It >> didn't even matter which candidate YOU personally wanted, just >> how your answers reflected society as a whole. The subject was >> hooked into a polygraph device, not because of fear of lying, but >> to help measure the exact strength of feelings when the verbal >> answers were given. Anyone know title/author? >"Polygraph", indeed! It was one of Asimov's Multivac stories. I >don't remember which. >--bsa The story in question is "Franchise" by Ike Asimov. Paul Summers Watkins Johsnon, Co. San Jose, Ca. (...ios!wjvax!paul) ------------------------------ Date: 4 Sep 84 11:39:03 PDT (Tuesday) From: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Here's The Plot, What's The Title # 23 I personally have not read this book, but my aunt did, so this description is second hand: The story takes place in the future, where resources are scarce. My aunt recalls a description of taking a shower, with a five minute hot water allotment. On an asteroid, some (machine, device, computer) directs adventurous individuals on a random expedition. These expeditions are exploratory. If a valuable astronomical body is found (like a double star), then the adventurers can claim overwhelming rewards. More often that not, however, the adventurers never return alive. The story has a humorous tone. The hero is a bumbler. It turns out that the crew that he gets shipped out with does indeed find a double star, but they have trouble escaping from it's gravitational pull. To get away, they decide to jettison one of the pods of their two pod ship. They put all the heavy unnecessary stuff in one pod, and they climbed into the other ... all but the hero that is. By his clumsiness, he and his girlfriend were stuck in the pod about to be jettisoned. Somehow, by deciding to sacrifice himself and stay in the bad pod, he manages to get his girlfriend over into the good pod. But something happens and the HERO gets saved, and the other pod, with the rest of his crew, gets shot into the middle of the double star. In the end, he feels regret, for he knows that although years have passed for him (he's wealthy now for the discovery), because of the near light acceleration of the other pod, his crewmates are still suffering and have not yet died! Doubtless this description is HIGHLY distorted, having come second hand, ACROSS A LANGUAGE BARRIER (my aunt is German and she can't remember if she read the story in German or English). But if anyone recognizes it, the author and title would be greatly appreciated by Perry ------------------------------ Date: 31 Aug 84 10:52:58-PDT (Fri) From: decvax!linus!philabs!rdin!perl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Sentient Silicon That reminds me of a story I read wherein medical technology had advanced to the point where the recently dead could be brought back to life. This resulted in an increased murder rate accompanied by an almost total apathy toward the crime. The police would allow murder victims, after being resurected, to seek "retribution" against their murderers. The main character, after killing his wife's murderer, was said to have felt better about it than any other murder he had committed, since this murderer's people did not believe in medical resurection. An amusing line from the story (paraphrased): "Johnson screwed up the Collins report, so I had to kill him again." Robert Perlberg Resource Dynamics Inc. New York philabs!rdin!perl ------------------------------ Date: 3 Sep 84 12:04:59-PDT (Mon) From: decvax!cwruecmp!atvax!ncoast!bsa @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Sentient Silicon (Germainium? Superconducting Lead?...) > From: trainoff.pasa@XEROX.ARPA > human. The machine will have "grown" up with the whole idea of > backups. For all it knows it will be loaded back in again. I > can't see how this would be any worse than running the NULL job > for a while (or is that a lobotomy. Oh my English just can't > handle this (reminds me of time travel varients on language (See > HHGttG))). Hmmm... seems to me you just legitimized Genesis. Did Spock know he would be re-booted? :-) Time travel variants on language? How about Deety and Lib in Number of the Beast? (now there's weird for you :-) --bsa ------------------------------ Date: 4 Sep 84 09:58:50 EDT From: Alexander B. Latzko Subject: Mad Monster Party Mercy ,please have mercy because my memory failed. It was just a parity error. Honest! However, more mundanely, does anyone know when Buckaroo Banzai will be released in New York. I missed it when I was in LA and am now soundly cursing Fox for the delay. Help Please....... wondering about the whichness of why alex ------------------------------ Date: 5 Sep 84 10:23:45 EDT From: Saul Subject: Buckaroo Bonzai According to rumors I heard floating around Worldcon, this movie was removed from circulation because it was not doing well. Does anyone have any more information?? Saul ------------------------------ Date: 5 Sep 1984 13:58:01-EDT From: rachiele@NADC Subject: star trek in LA. Well cut Star Trek is better than what WPIX (11) New York has been showing weeknights after midnight. I call it "Star Trek highlights". Jim ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 7-Sep SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #170 Date: 7 Sep 84 1234-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #170 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Sep 84 1234-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #170 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 7 Sep 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 170 Today's Topics: Administrivia - The Hugos, Books - Asimov & Borges & Pynchon, Films - Dune & Buckaroo Banzai, Videos - The Lathe of Heaven & Fantasy Videos, Miscellaneous - Conservation of Momentum ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 Sep 84 12:19:05 EDT From: Saul Subject: Hugos In the continuing tradition of public service to the readers of this digest, now available via FTP in the directory T: here at Rutgers is the complete history of the Hugo Awards. This file (hugos.txt) includes all the hugo award winners since the first award given in 1953 including special awards. Use the ANONYMOUS login of FTP to retrieve the file. For those of you who are not on the ARPAnet or do not have access to FTP, please do not send me requests to mail it to you. The file is too large for the mailers to handle. Please see someone at your site for information on how to get access to the file. ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 7 Sep 1984 04:54:14-PDT From: lionel%orphan.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Steve Lionel) Subject: The Good Doctor In one of the many responses identifying Isaac Asimov's "Franchise", Paul Summers said: "The story in question is "Franchise" by Ike Asimov." Surely anyone who is at all familiar with Asimov's autobiographical writings should know that if there's one name he absolutely DESPISES, it's "Ike". By the way, in a preface to one of the Multivac stories he relates how he came up with the name "Multivac". You see, there was this well known computer of the time called Univac, and Asimov wanted his computer to have LOTS of vacuum tubes, instead of Univac's one.... Steve Lionel ARPA: lionel%orphan.DEC@decwrl.ARPA UUCP: decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-orphan!lionel MCI: Steve Lionel (177-0623) "God is real unless declared integer." ------------------------------ Date: 6 Sep 84 3:00:20-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!utah-cs!donn @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Fun with Borges' 'The Library of Babel' This discussion is a bit of a spoiler, so if you hate spoilers and enjoy fantasy, rush out right now and buy Jorge Luis Borges' FICCIONES (which contains some really remarkable stories besides 'The Library of Babel', including 'The Circular Ruins' and 'Pierre Menard, Author of DON QUIXOTE'), read it, then come back and read this... 'The Library of Babel' is really a fun story, and it's a fun story on several levels, as a fantasy, as a mathematical game, as philosophical speculation and as satire (Borges was once a librarian and was (is?) director of the National Library of Argentina). The story has been anthologized in numerous places, and has inspired a number of SF stories; for example Gene Wolfe has admitted in PLAN[E]T ENGINEERING that the Library was an inspiration for the peculiar library of the Citadel (and perhaps the House Absolute and who knows how many other places) in his BOOK OF THE NEW SUN. One of the more straightforward puzzles is the construction of the Library. Here is how Borges describes it: The universe (which others call the Library) is composed of an indefinite, perhaps an infinite, number of hexagonal galleries, with enormous ventilation shafts in the middle, encircled by very low railings. From any hexagon the upper or lower stories are visible, interminably. The distribution of the galleries is invariable. Twenty shelves -- five long shelves per side -- cover all sides except two; their height, which is that of each floor, scarcely exceeds that of an average librarian. One of the free sides gives upon a narrow entrance way, which leads to another gallery, identical to the first and to all the others. To the left and right of the entrance way are two miniature rooms. One allows standing room for sleeping; the other, the satisfaction of fecal necessities. Through this section passes the spiral staircase, which plunges down into the abyss and rises up to the heights.... This description is somewhat ambiguous and incomplete; the only other information we have is the following cryptic Dictum which is passed down among librarians through the generations: The Library is a sphere whose consummate center is any hexagon, and whose circumference is inaccessible. Let's make some assumptions. From the Dictum, let us assume that the Library fills space; it extends to an arbitrarily large distance in all directions in three dimensions (or more?). Let's assume that the second 'free side' of a hexagon opens onto another gallery directly, without passing through a hall with a staircase. Without this assumption it would be difficult to establish an arrangement compatible with the first assumption. Next, let's assume that given sufficient time, it is possible to travel from any hexagon to any other; this is implied but not stated in the course of the story. Finally, to make tiling convenient, let's assume that the halls which contain stairwells are hexagonal in shape and the same size as the book hexagons. We can explain the narrowness of the corridor by the fact that the bedrooms and bathrooms and stairs take up most of the floor space. We can even put the stairs in the same position as the central ventilation shaft of the book hexagons (they were pre-fabricated!). Then the fun question to ask is: How are the hexagons laid out? Several possibilities come to mind, depending on what aesthetic restrictions one chooses to impose on the structure. One really simple possibility is to lay the rooms out in rows; here is a crude picture (O's mark stairwell hexagons, ='s and X's mark doors): \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / Sample closed hexagon: = O = = = O = = = O = / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ = O = = = O = = = O = | | \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / = = O = = = O = = = / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ In this batik-like pattern the paths through the Library run from left to right, with a stairwell every third hexagon. This arrangement has a difficulty -- it's impossible to move from one row of hexagons to another on the same level. If the same pattern occurs on lower levels, then the Library ends up being partitioned into planes of hexagons. This runs against our assumption that every hexagon is accessible from every other. Perhaps we can salvage this tiling and preserve its symmetry by assuming that alternate levels of the Library alternate reflections of the tiling. Reflecting the tiling across an axis passing through a column of stairwell rooms preserves the positions of stairwells and ventilation shafts (which are mutually exclusive by virtue of the statement that they continue 'interminably') but changes the orientations of the rows of rooms. This allows you to go down a level, traipse through a few rooms, then come up a level into a different row. Does this solve the problem? It seems that this isn't quite enough. Instead of arbitrarily many sets of rooms, we now have three sets of rooms. The difficulty is that stairwells are spaced three rooms apart, so when you go down a level and skip along to another stairwell, you will always come up a multiple of 3 rows away from your starting point. Rows that are 1 mod 3 or 2 mod 3 distant are in disjoint sets. Is there any tiling in which all the rooms are laid out this way and every room is accessible from every other room? By 'this way', I mean an arrangement where all the stated assumptions are true, with the additional hypotheses that every hexagon has an infinite linear path going through it, and various levels may be rotations or reflections of the basic pattern. What happens if the paths through the Library need not be straight? An example of a crooked tiling might be the following (X's and ='s denote doors): \ / \ / X / \ / \ / X / \ / \ / Sample closed hexagon: = O = | = O = | = O = / \ / \ / X / \ / \ / X / \ / \ / \ = O = | = O = | = O = | | X / \ / \ / X / \ / \ / X / \ / \ / | = O = | = O = | = / X / \ / \ / X / \ / \ / X / \ As with the previous pattern, if this pattern were to continue up and down for indefinite distances, then the Library would be partitioned into an infinite number of sets. Unlike the previous pattern, if the levels of the Library alternate with appropriate reflections of the tiling, any hexagon of the Library can be reached from any other. (Try to visualize the method.) While this arrangement satisfies all the assumptions, it is clumsy. If you want to reach a hexagon that is on the same level as the one you are standing in, chances are that you can't get there without changing levels. Is it possible to have a layout of hexagons that will get you to any other hexagon on the current level without needing to cross levels? This is an easy question, so I'll make it somewhat harder: is it possible to create a layout such that the time it takes to travel between two hexagons on the same level, without changing levels, is independent of their location in the Library? Is it possible to design a layout that has a minimal average path between two hexagons on the same level? I don't have answers for these... A liberal interpretation of Borges' description might permit stairwell hexagons to have more than two entrances. Does this change the problem? (This is fairly easy.) That's all I have to say on this at the moment. Corrections and suggestions are welcome... The next posting I want to make on this will examine the size of the Library. Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ Date: 4 Sep 84 13:20:22-PDT (Tue) From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!brucec @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Why pick on Pynchon? >> It amazes me that a compartively skilled writer such as Pynchon >> can be slammed on this list while such crude authors as Piers >> Anthony, whom I find unreadable, pass unscathed. Agreed, Pynchon is a *skilled* writer, it's just that not all of us are willing to bull through all the extraneaous stuff he throws in to prove it. I generally liked "V" (even the South African garden party sequence, which did little to further anything else in the book), and I often wish that I had been able to get past page 100 in "Gravity's Rainbow." My tolerance for self-indulgent writing is just too low. We do agree about Piers Anthony. I have actually read several of his novels, and after each one I have asked myself why I bothered. The last straw was the "Planet of Tarot" series, which I read in a fit of boredom while on a long business trip. I actually emulated that old cliche of throwing the book across the room, shouting "Never again!" What irritates me is that he couldn't even get his research on the Tarot right. I could excuse his miserable writing and blatant sexism (he does know that women are human, doesn't he?) if he could just get *something* right. Bruce Cohen UUCP: ...!tektronix!orca!brucec CSNET: orca!brucec@tektronix ARPA: orca!brucec.tektronix@rand-relay USMail: M/S 61-183 Tektronix, Inc. P.O. Box 1000 Wilsonville, OR 97070 ------------------------------ Date: 6 Sep 84 09:10:10 PDT (Thursday) From: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: Dune Movie Picture Book >>And he (whoever he is) had the nerve to fit in a new device. This is particularly obnoxious in the face of the Butlerian Jihad! Where did this device come from? Ix? My expectations for the movie are so low that I doubt that I can be seriously disappointed. The movie trailer sure looks gee-whiz, but I can't see that special-effects could replace the intricate plot(s) in the book. I did have one expectation, which of course is not fulfilled in the movie. I don't know about anyone else, but it seemed to me that Herbert intentionally gave the Fremen an Arabian (near eastern anyway) motiff. So why is it that the Fremen in the movie (trailer) look like a bunch of surfers off of Malibu, wetsuits and all?? Is this an unreasonable interpretation? Anyway, my money is on 2010, negative rumours notwithstanding. Perry PS Oh yes, the actor who plays Harkonnen isn't fat enough. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Sep 84 10:30:48-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!oliveb!olivee!gnome @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Buckaroo Banzai support You may have noticed that the film Buckaroo Banzai is not really around at the moment. If you want it to come back and play at local theaters, send a quick letter (of support) to: Kathryn Linclau Sherwood Productions 9454 Wilshire Blvd. Beverly Hills, CA 90212 -address supplied by 20th C Fox. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Sep 84 7:19:00-PDT (Tue) From: ihnp4!houxm!hou2h!ajw @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Lathe of Heaven hmm...i'd like a copy too... I've seen it twice on PBS and found it VERY accurate to the book (refreshing, what?) - 'twas good enough I'll (Finally!) have to break down and buy a VCR! (of course, then i'll have no excuse NOT to buy all the StarTrek tapes :-) is anyone SELLING LoH commercially? PBS? PLEASE???? -art ...ihnp4!hou2h!ajw HO1B612 201/834-1142 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Sep 84 13:49 CDT From: John_Mellby Subject: Fantasy Videos Does anyone know where you may obtain video cassettes of TV fantasy or SF shows? In particular, I have a friend who desperately wants copies of all the Wizards and Warriors shows (nine of them?) from last year. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Sep 84 12:38:27 EDT From: Louis Steinberg Subject: conservation of momentum Carl Weidling notes that matter transmission does not necessarily imply violating consevation of momentum, but notes that classical conservation of momentum implies that the center of mass of the the universe is not altered while matter transmission does seem to alter it. I have two comments: If momentum is conserved, then you come out of the matter transmitter with the same momentum you went into it with. Since your mass doesn't change (we hope!), your velocity doesn't change. The problem is that the place you transmit to may be moving with a quite different velocity. E.g. if you transmit from one point on the equator to another point on the equator exactly on the other side of the earth, you will come out moving about 2000 mph relative to the ground. Interplanetary MT is even worse. I vaguely remember one of the series of short stories on MT used this device to limit the range of MT for the first few stories. Eventually a method was developed that allowed the momentum to be transfered to some large mass somewhere in the process of transmitting you. (This was the series including the story Flash Crowd.) While conservation of momentum is a well established law, the question about center of mass of the universe is not a real issue. In fact, the term "center of mass of the universe" does not even make much sense in a relativistic universe. Presumably one defines this by taking the position and mass of every particle at some instant. The problem is that there is no consistent way to define "the same instant in time" for two particles that are moving relative to each other at some noticable fraction of the speed of light. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 10-Sep SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #171 Date: 10 Sep 84 1233-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #171 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 10 Sep 84 1233-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #171 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 10 Sep 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 171 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony (2 msgs) & Dickson & Heinlein & Pohl (4 msgs) & Reynolds, Films - Buckaroo Banzai ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: berch%lll-tis.arpa@lll-tis (Michael C. Berch) Date: Wed Sep 5 22:25:36 1984 Subject: Review: ON A PALE HORSE by Piers Anthony Anthony, Piers. ON A PALE HORSE. (Ballantine/Del Rey, August 1984, pb, 325 pp., $2.95. ISBN 0-345-30518-3.) ``Book One of Incarnations of Immortality'' Summary: Below average for Anthony, but inoffensive reading. Review: Each of Piers Anthony's series has taken up a new set of elaborate symbols and social institutions. In the CLUSTER novels it was alien cultures and their symbolic `themes.' In the APPRENTICE ADEPT (Split Infinity etc.) it was the ritual games of Proton and the adepts of Phaze. In the XANTH novels Anthony has built a detailed system of personal and collective magic. ON A PALE HORSE introduces a new system where science and magic coexist (rather unconvincingly, I think: the APPRENTICE ADEPT books showed exactly why science and magic don't mix well; however, Anthony has chosen not to take his own advice). The kicker here is that the archetypical figures of Death, Fate, Nature, War, and Time are literal, and are incarnate; their offices are filled by humans who carry out their traditional duties (and have the benefit of certain powers and perquisites). The book's hero, Zane, becomes Death (as revealed on the back cover). Yes, there is a love interest. Yes, our hero must find a way to outfox the baddies while just beginning to learn the ropes of his new job. Yes, there are a number of unforgiveable puns. Yes, there are fights and chases in which our hero must defeat his enemies by quick thinking and intuition rather than brawn. Yes, there is a faithful steed that reveals useful information to our hero at crucial moments. Is this beginning to sound familiar? Yes. Unfortunately, after exploring numerous mature themes in books like CHTHON, the CLUSTER novels, and particularly the BATTLE CIRCLE series (Sos the Rope, etc.) Anthony has turned out a large number of inoffensive books with no real substance or flavor. I finished ON A PALE HORSE with a shrug rather than a moist eye or a smile. Oh, yes, there's supposed to be a message in here about ``death with dignity'' and death as a natural process, and I think that this is admirable. Unfortunately, the points are rather heavy-handed. Readers who follow Anthony's career will also enjoy the author's lengthy note at the end of the book, similar to that following VISCOUS CIRCLE. I somehow get the idea that Anthony knows he is not living up to the promise of his early writing, but is either a) unable to return to his forte, or b) enjoying life on the best-seller lists too much. Curiously, the BIO OF A SPACE TYRANT series, also unfinished, does not suffer from the same flaws as ON A PALE HORSE. I wish I could recommend ON A PALE HORSE more highly, having spent many happy hours with the CLUSTER and BATTLE CIRCLE books. Perhaps ``Book Two of Incarnations of Immortality'', BEARING AN HOURGLASS, now in hardcover, will provide that opportunity. Michael Berch berch@lll-tis.arpa ...ucbvax!lbl-csam!lll-tis!berch ------------------------------ Date: Sat 8 Sep 84 20:19:50-PDT From: Bob Larson Subject: Piers Anthony Unlike some other people on this net, I do enjoy most of what Piers Anthony writes. Much of it is not worth contemplation or re-reading, but it does suit my primary purpose of reading SF: entertainment. My point in writing this is to recommend two of his books to those of you who have not read them because of the author. Bio of a space Tyrant: Vol 1: Refugee 0-380-84194-0 Avon Oct 83 $2.95 Bio of a space Tyrant: Vol 2: Mercenary 0-380-87221-8 Avon Jun 84 $2.95 Not the light entertainment of Piers Anthony's other writings. A serious story of how circumstances turned someone into a "tyrant", from the tyrant's point of view. Two of the best books in my collection. Warning: those of you who want to be offended will be by descriptions of both violence and sex. Vol 3: Politician will be out eventually. ("Soon") Bob Larson ------------------------------ Date: Sat 8 Sep 84 20:32:47-PDT From: Bob Larson Subject: Gordon R. Dickson: The Final Encyclopedia is available in hardcover. A must for readers of the Childe Cycle series. Since I am not good at reviewing, I won't. I liked it. The Final Encyclopedia Gordon R. Dickson Tor 0-312-93241-3 Oct 84 $18.95 ------------------------------ Date: 6 Sep 84 6:34:31-PDT (Thu) From: decvax!mcnc!rti!rti-sel!rcb @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS 'who ius The collection to find "Green Hills of Earth" is Heinlein's first masterpiece collection, THE PAST THROUGH TOMORROW. It contains his future history series of short stories (about 30) and is the best book I've ever read (and read and read...). A absolute must for any Heinlein lover. Randy Buckland Research Triangle Institute ...!mcnc!rti!rcb ------------------------------ Date: 07-Sep-1984 1058 From: g_hafner%wookie.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Gerry Hafner) Subject: Re:Book request, SF-LOVERS V9.169 >From: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA > >I personally have not read this book, but my aunt did, so this >description is second hand: >The story takes place in the future, where resources are scarce. >My aunt recalls a description of taking a shower, with a five >minute hot water allotment. >On an asteroid, some (machine, device, computer) directs >adventurous individuals on a random expedition. These expeditions >are exploratory. If a valuable astronomical body is found (like a >double star), then the adventurers can claim overwhelming rewards. >More often that not, however, the adventurers never return alive. >The story has a humorous tone. The hero is a bumbler. It turns >out that the crew that he gets shipped out with does indeed find a >double star, but they have trouble escaping from it's gravitational >pull. To get away, they decide to jettison one of the pods of >their two pod ship. They put all the heavy unnecessary stuff in >one pod, and they climbed into the other ... all but the hero that >is. By his clumsiness, he and his girlfriend were stuck in the pod >about to be jettisoned. Somehow, by deciding to sacrifice himself >and stay in the bad pod, he manages to get his girlfriend over into >the good pod. >But something happens and the HERO gets saved, and the other pod, >with the rest of his crew, gets shot into the middle of the double >star. >In the end, he feels regret, for he knows that although years have >passed for him (he's wealthy now for the discovery), because of the >near light acceleration of the other pod, his crewmates are still >suffering and have not yet died! >Doubtless this description is HIGHLY distorted, having come second >hand, ACROSS A LANGUAGE BARRIER (my aunt is German and she can't >remember if she read the story in German or English). But if >anyone recognizes it, the author and title would be greatly >appreciated by >Perry ************** SLIGHT SPOILER ************* The story your aunt described has to be "Gateway", by Frederik(sp?) Pohl. The "trips" were volunteer missions in 'Heechee' ships, found parked in a hollow asteroid, and, yes, they were more often than not one-way rides. The main character, Robinette Broadhead, became quite wealthy when he became the sole returnee from the last trip he made, where he left his girlfriend and several other people behind (I can't remember if it was accidental or on purpose, it's been a while since I read it). However, I would like to point out one thing: the last trip he made ended up, I believe, coming into a reasonably close orbit around a black hole, rather than a double star. I can't say more without ruining the ending, though. I suggest you read it, if you're this interested, you'll probably enjoy it. By the way, I highly recommend the next book in the series, "Beyond the Blue Event Horizon" (don't know the date, my copy is paperback and at home), I thought it carried along the ideas from Gateway quite well. Gerry Hafner DEC Littleton (MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-wookie!hafner ARPA: hafner%wookie.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Date: 7 Sep 84 21:54:16 EDT Subject: Gateway & Your German Aunt That fellow's German aunt was reading GATEWAY by Frederick Pohl...but it boggles the mind to think that she (or anybody!) could think of it as a humorous work. It remains one of the grimmest tales I have ever read. Makes you wonder what those English-German translators smoke while they do their thing. Nonetheless, it is good readiing, and the two sequels are tolerable, as sequels go. BEYOND THE BLUE EVENT HORIZON & HEECHEE RONDEZVOUS I cannot, however, read the word "kugelblitz" without thinking of a German pastry. (It's actually a thoroughly nasty thing; black hole containing horrible monsters, from HEECHEE RONDEZVOUS.) Sort of adds fuel to my contention that translation is impossible without numerous unintentional giggles. --Jeff Duntemann duntemann.wbst@xerox ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Sep 1984 00:41 EDT From: RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Here's The Plot, What's The Title # 23 Date: Tuesday, 4 September 1984 14:39-EDT From: Caro.PA at XEROX.ARPA To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC Re: Here's The Plot, What's The Title # 23 The story in question is "Gateway", by Fredrick Pohl, with the following comments: The story takes place in the future, where resources are scarce. My aunt recalls a description of taking a shower, with a five minute hot water allotment. On the asteroid, this is certainly true. Back on Earth, food is pretty short, but water isn't a problem. On an asteroid, some (machine, device, computer) directs adventurous individuals on a random expedition. The "thing" is a governing council from the United Nations. The missions aren't so much random as that the scientists have no idea how the ships work. These expeditions are exploratory. If a valuable astronomical body is found (like a double star), then the adventurers can claim overwhelming rewards. More often that not, however, the adventurers never return alive. Pretty accurate, except the board is much more interested in Heechee junk than neat stars. The story has a humorous tone. The hero is a bumbler. The story is very tragic in tone, and Robin is portrayed sympathetically. It turns out that the crew that he gets shipped out with does indeed find a double star, but they have trouble escaping from it's gravitational pull. To get away, they decide to jettison one of the pods of their two pod ship. They put all the heavy unnecessary stuff in one pod, and they climbed into the other ... all but the hero that is. By his clumsiness, he and his girlfriend were stuck in the pod about to be jettisoned. Somehow, by deciding to sacrifice himself and stay in the bad pod, he manages to get his girlfriend over into the good pod. For double star read black hole, and he isn't clumsy. In the end, he feels regret, for he knows that although years have passed for him (he's wealthy now for the discovery), because of the near light acceleration of the other pod, his crewmates are still suffering and have not yet died! Fairly accurate again, except that the time dilation is due to the event horizon of the black hole. It should also be noted that there are two sequels (mentioned recently): Beyond the Blue Event Horizon Heechee Rendezvous James ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 1984 22:27 EDT From: CCS.TMRC.MAP%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Here's The Plot, What's The Title # 23 This sounds similar to the opening of "Beyond the Blue Event Horizon" by Fredrik Pohl. However there are some MAJOR discrepancies which may be either due to your aunt's memory, the transfer of information to you, or the fact that it is the wrong story. BtBEH is actually about events considerably after the loss of the girl and describe the hero involved in other episodes, but being haunted by the memory of the girl friend. The lost half of ship wasn't lost to a star system of any kind but to a black hole, thus the reference to the "Event Horizon". This is one of the Heechee series being discussed elsewhere on the mailing list for different reasons. The "asteroid machine" is an artifact of the Heechee, a long gone super-civilization. The humans do not know how to control it, but it often has VERY useful artifacts at the far end of the transport beam and sometimes it brings back the bold adventurers. If you have any questions or desire further info, feel free to contact me (if you can't get me here, I'm also MAP@MIT-MC). Mike P.S. For your further information here is the entries from my personal bibliography for the two books in this series I own: Book (SFBC) Title: Gateway Author: Fredrik Pohl Publisher: St. Martin's Press, Inc. 175 Fifth Avenue New York, New York 10010 Book (SFBC) Title: Beyond the Blue Event Horizon Author: Fredrik Pohl Publisher: Ballantine Books New York, New York Synopsis: Sequel to Gateway [Moderator's Note: I received many answers to this story response but unfortunately because of space limitations I cannot include them all. There also seems to be a difference of opinion as to whether the story is "Gateway" or Beyond the Blue Event Horizon." The following people believe it to be "Gateway": FIRTH@TL-20B Andy V (a_vesper%advax.DEC@decwrl) carol at mit-cipg at mit-mc Roger (goun%whoaru.DEC@decwrl) Tom Perrine (tom@LOGICON) Stephen R. Balzac (LS.SRB%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC) Andrew Kenah (kenah%super.DEC@decwrl) Peter (Alfke.PASA@XEROX) utcsrgv!mcgill-vision!mouse Roy J. Mongiovi (hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!akgua!gatech!gitpyr!roy @Ucb-Vax) The Following believe it to be "Beyond...": Dave (Newman.pasa@Xerox) Jim (feldman%nexus.DEC@decwrl) Wang Zeep (G.ZEEP%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC) Whichever book it actually comes from I'm sure it is well worth reading the whole series. Thanks to all for responses.] ------------------------------ Date: Fri 7 Sep 84 12:36:30-EDT From: Wang Zeep Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #169 Mack Reynolds died about a year and a half ago, right before Boskone '83 (Washington's Birthday Weekend) at which he was to be the GoH. It was suggested that the traditional Dead Dog party at the con's end should be renamed the Dead Guest of Honor party.... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 84 11:58 PDT From: Alfke.PASA@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: Buckaroo Banzai > According to rumors I heard floating around Worldcon, this movie > was removed from circulation because it was not doing well. Does > anyone have any more information?? Well, I saw the movie last weekend in Orange County (i.e. at the same time as WorldCon), so it's probably still playing. I have heard nothing about it's being axed . . . does this mean they won't do "Buckaroo Banzai Versus the World Crime League" ?? -- Peter Alfke "Post No Bills" ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 10-Sep SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #172 Date: 10 Sep 84 1254-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #172 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 10 Sep 84 1254-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #172 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 10 Sep 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 172 Today's Topics: Books - Aspirin & Brust & Burgess & Elgin (3 msgs) & Foster & Gibson & Saberhagen, Films - Dune & The Stainless Steel Rat, Television - Star Trek (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Conservation of Center of Mass of the Universe ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 Sep 84 08:11 PDT From: Newman.pasa@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: Here's The Plot, What's The Title # 23 Cc: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA Here is my question : Are there any other books by Robert Lynn Aspirin in the same Milleux as "Another Fine Myth"? This milleux is NOT the Thieve's world stuff (Of which another book is scheduled to come out in the next couple of months) but I have heard that there are some other books about this milleux. I enjoyed AFM but can't find any others. Can someone give me a hand ?? ((I KNOW this is more Fantasy than SF but....)) >>Dave ------------------------------ Date: 7 Sep 84 13:31:56-PDT (Fri) From: decvax!dartvax!betsy @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Jhereg: review, no spoilers Jhereg, by Steven Brust, Ace Fantasy, $2.50 Mini-review: Buy it! Saint the author! If you like assassins, you'll love this one. Normal review: *Jhereg* is a devious tale concerning an assassin named Vlad Taltos, who lives in a town called Adrilankha which makes Lankhmar look normal. (Maybe it's the 'kh' which does it.) It's about devious maneuvers, life-death battles, Death, Loyalty, Honour, Subtlety, and several other good words. Let me give a brief sample (non-spoiler) of the text: ...At the other extreme from simply killing someone and leaving his body to be found and, possibly, revivified, is a special kind of murder which is almost never done. To take an example, let us say that an assassin whom you have hired is caught by the Empire and tells them who hired him, in exchange for his worthless soul. What do you do? You've already marked him as dead -- no way the Empire can protect him enough to keep a top-notch assassin out. But that isn't enough; not for someone low enough to talk to the Empire about you. So what do you do? You scrape together, oh, at least six thousand gold, and you arrange to meet with the best assassin you can find -- an absolute top-notch professional -- and give him the name of the target, and you say "Morganti." Jhereg is as twisted as your favorite DNA; half-way through the book the hero is in a position in which he has the choice of: 1. Dishonoring his closest friend and touching off the equivalent of a jihad. 2. Sparing the friend's honor, losing his own honor (and subsequently his life), and having the same blood-feud happen anyway. It's set in a world where everybody is dangerous (those who aren't, die), and most are cruel. There are several conversations between angry friends which sent shivers up my spine. Furthermore, there's a prequel, Yendi. But read Jhereg first. "No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder-blades will seriously cramp his style." Betsy Perry UUCP: {decvax|linus|cornell}!dartvax!betsy "What is Truth?" said CSNET: betsy@dartmouth jesting Pilate; and would ARPA: betsy%dartmouth@csnet-relay not stay for an answer. ------------------------------ Date: 07 Sep 84 02:04:43 PDT (Fri) Cc: mrose@uci-750a Subject: Review: The End of the World News From: Jerry Sweet Micro-review: read it--especially the Foreword--a howl. Macro-review: According to the introduction (a rather strange one, implying that the author is dead, when he probably isn't--well, is he?), the title of this book by Anthony Burgess is inspired by the BBC news signoff "That's the end of the World News". TEotWN is three almost completely separate stories mixed in alternating chapters into one book. One story is a historical dramatization of Freud's invention of psychoanalysis and his trials and tribulations from then until the beginning of World War Two, when he was rescued from the clutches of the Austrian Gestapo (Freud was a Jew, you see). The story is told in flashback, mostly from Freud's point of view. The second story is a quasi-musical, complete with song cues and lyrics, but no actual music, that describes a visit (fictional or not--I'm not sure) by Trotsky to New York just prior to the 1917 Communist revolution in Russia. The third story is really about the end of the world. A rogue planet named Lynx is due to make a destructive flyby of Earth, round the sun, and return to collide with Earth one year later. The story is a half-parody of "When Worlds Collide", with a dash of "A Clockwork Orange" (another book by Burgess, which was made into an equally depraved movie by Kubrick) thrown in for good measure. The story about Freud is interesting, the Trotsky musical is awful, and the end of the world story is somewhat banal, but not too bad. The mixture is enough to keep your interest up; it's sort of like switching channels between three network shows without losing the thread of any one show. I'm probably dense, but I can't find any but the most superficial relationships among the three stories. Publication information: The End Of The World News by Anthony Burgess softcover from Penguin Books, New York; 1983 (the copyright is by Lianna Burgess; maybe AB actually croaked!) -jns ------------------------------ Date: 5 Sep 1984 12:17:12 EDT ( WEDNESDAY ) From: Subject: S. H. Elgin Elgin has always been one of my favorite writers, and it is with great pleasure that I see her working again in "our" field. I can identify 8 of her 9 novels, and would appreciate anyone pointing me toward the missing title. I am at work (IBM Research) and don't have the bibliographic information handy. The Communipaths Fartherest At the Seventh Level These are from c. 1970, and have been recently reprinted in one volumn as the Communipaht Novels. The Ozark Trilogy, consisting of: Twelve Fair Kingdoms The Grand Jubilee Then There'll be Fireworks Star Anchored, Star Angered Native Tongue These are all avalable in paperback. Cyril N. Alberga ------------------------------ Date: Thu 6 Sep 84 19:58:55-EDT From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: Books by S H Elgin The only other books I know of by Suzette Haden Elgin are the "Ozark Trilogy": Twelve Fair Kingdoms The Grand Jubilee And Then There'll be Fireworks All three are collected in an SFBC Edition, published by Doubleday. Unfortunately there seems to be no ISBN on my copy (shame, sirs!). The trilogy is set on the planet of Ozark,where there is a society of some strangeness, and a heroine (Responsible of Brightwater) that it was very hard to sympathise with. Perhaps I got so little out of the books because I know nothing about things "Ozark". ------------------------------ Date: 7 Sep 84 12:38:35-PDT (Fri) From: decvax!dartvax!betsy @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: NATIVE TONGUE by S. H. Elgin Suzette Hadley Elgin is the author of a fine trilogy about a planet called Mizzurah; the only title I can remember is the last volume, called 'And Then There'll Be Fireworks'. Mizzurah is a planet settled by a number of disgusted Appalachians; needless to say, magic works. I thought it was funny, and the heroine's marvelous. Her name is Responsible of Brightwater; need I say more? Ms. Elgin also has written several stories/novellas about the Communipath worlds, so called because telepaths are used for interstellar communication. Unfortunately, they tend to burn out and die before they're twenty. Again, I like the characters very much. (Trivia note: Joanna Russ' 'The Two of Us' is based on the setting of one of Ms. Elgin's Communipath novels.) Betsy Perry UUCP: {decvax|linus|cornell}!dartvax!betsy "What is Truth?" said CSNET: betsy@dartmouth jesting Pilate; and would ARPA: betsy%dartmouth@csnet-relay not stay for an answer. ------------------------------ Date: 31 Aug 84 21:09:48-PDT (Fri) From: decvax!cca!ima!ism780!geoff @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: sf novel identity query >> I hope someone out there can answer this... >> .... included >> the following elements: >> - A genetically-improved human species which has been >> "quarantined" from ordinary humans, because the >> ordinaries don't quite know what else to do with >> them. (They were an experiment that worked too well.) They were called 'the Ler' >> Please reply via mail... adTHANKSvance. >> W. Christensen Sorry for posting this, but I don't know the path from ima ==> apollo ('W.', couldn't you have given us some hints?) Anyway the book you remember is: THE GAMESPLAYERS OF ZAN (for sure) by M. A. FOSTER (I think) I recommend it to all netlanders who enjoy convoluted stories, I couldn't have remembered as much as W did from one reading, especially since it's the kind of book one doesn't put down until finished. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Sep 84 17:56:30-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!ut-sally!utastro!fritz @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Mini-review: Neuromancer Mini-review: "Neuromancer" by William Gibson An ACE Science Fiction Special What do you get when you cross a pirate / hacker with a wirehead? A fairly interesting book. Good technological extrapolation. Also, as Joe Bob might put it, 40 gallons of blood, some kung-fu, a couple of car-type chases ( in a tricky environment), some kinky sex.... Check it out. This author was included in a recent 'Best of' anthology (sorry. I cannot remember where! The ravages of age...); title was "Black ICE". If you have a short attention span, find and read this. Fritz Benedict (512)471-4461x448 uucp: {...seismo,decvax}!noao!utastro!fritz arpa: fritz@ut-ngp snail: Astronomy, U of Texas, Austin, TX 78712 ------------------------------ Date: 6 Sep 84 11:05:37-PDT (Thu) From: ihnp4!houxm!mhuxl!abnjh!lute @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Looking for an out of print book (Fantasy) I am looking for an out of print book entitled: Second Book of Swords by Fred Saberhagen. This book came out in Oct. 1983, and was out of print by the time I heard about it in June, 1984. I have tried calling the publisher in N.Y.C. but they say they saved NO copies of the book. This is VERY weird because this is the second book of a trilogy, and I wouldn't have even asked for the book if I hadn't noticed that the "Third Book of Swords" was out. Why would they stop printing the 2nd book in a trilogy within a year, and then come out with the third book, and leave the first book in print???? Anyway, none of the bigger bookstores in Central NJ seems to have it now. If there are any netters out there who happen to see it in a local bookstore, ANYWHERE IN THE U.S. OR CANADA, please give me the name, location and (if possible) the phone number of the bookstore so that I might order it from the bookstore. Or if any of you out there have read it, and would like to sell it and send it to me, I'd appreciate that, too. Please though, contact me by UNIX mail first so that I don't get a dozen copies of the book. Thanks for the help. Jim Collymore ------------------------------ Date: 7 Sep 84 13:22:57-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!oliveb!olivee!oliven!albert @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Dune Movie Picture Book I have heard from somebody that there are no 'Makers' to be seen in this movie. I realize the difficulty involved in creating special effects involving giant worms, but I cannont conceive of a movie version of DUNE without giant worm scenes. Does anybody know more about the subject ? Alberto @ Olivetti ATC Mentat trainee. ------------------------------ Date: 7 Sep 84 17:44:12-PDT (Fri) From: decvax!mcnc!unc!black @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: The Stainless Steel Rat A group of us has been trying to figure out a good cast for a movie version of The Stainless Steel Rat (by Harry Harrison). We've cast James Garner in the title role, with possibly Harrison Ford as Inskipp. The biggest problem we're having is trying to find a gorgeous actress who is also talented to play Angelica/Angela/Angel. Any suggestions? ------------------------------ Date: 7 Sep 84 18:02:18-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!oliveb!oliven!hawk @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: JAMES R. KIRK >I always thought the name on the tombstone was wrong on >purpose--like a clue that the things that were going on were not >real, and by looking carefully you could see the flaws in the >appearance of the town. Wait a minute--wasn't this the second pilot? I watched this one a few weeks ago--no McCoy (was a doctor though), now sulu, I forget about Uhura, different corridors. I think kirk had his name changed, probably to make it harder for the lawyer representing Dr. Marcus in the paternity suit! rick (Rick Hawkins @ Olivetti ATC) [hplabs|zehntel|fortune|ios|tolerant|allegra|tymix]!oliveb!oliven!hawk ------------------------------ Date: 7 Sep 84 7:19:00-PDT (Fri) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!friedman @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Space Seed ==> TWOK - (nf) > The fate of the Botany Bay is never made clear in the episode. > They just sort of forget about it. No, the fate of the Botany Bay seemed pretty clear to me: When Khan took over the Enterprise, he simply abandoned it. There was a shot of the two ships moving apart as the Enterprise pulled away. But that doesn't seem to me to conflict with finding gear marked "Botany Bay" on Khan's planet. They could have moved a lot of gear to the Enterprise before abandoning the Botany Bay. And that gear would likely have been sent down to the planet with them. ------------------------------ Date: Sat 8 Sep 84 03:17:34-PDT From: Bob Larson Subject: re: conservation of center of mass of the universe The center of mass of the universe is not conserved by the conversion of mass to energy or visa-versa. The real question should be: Is the center of mass/energy of the universe conserved by know laws of physics and acceped theorys? Bob Larson ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 13-Sep SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #173 Date: 13 Sep 84 1231-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #173 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 13 Sep 84 1231-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #173 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 13 Sep 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 173 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Asprin & Burgess & Dewdney & Elgin & Saberhagen & Jokes (2 msgs), Films - The Stainless Steel Rat & Buckaroo Banzai & Dune (2 msgs) & Metropolis 1984, Television - Star Trek (2 msgs) & Hitch Hiker's Guide ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tuesday, 11 Sep 1984 07:52:54-PDT From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (From the terminal of Brendan E. From: Boelke) Subject: Bio of a Space Tyrant >Date: Sat 8 Sep 84 20:19:50-PDT >From: Bob Larson >Subject: Piers Anthony > > ...Vol 3: Politician will be out eventually. ("Soon") > >Bob Larson I have heard that the book is due this spring. Good series so far. I even read the first two books backwards, and Mercenary stands reasonably well by itself. ------------------------------ Date: Tue 11 Sep 84 13:04:22-PDT From: Bruce Subject: Re: Aspirin's "Myth" books The following are the books in Robert Lynn Aspirin's Myth series: Another Fine Myth* Hit or Myth Myth Conceptions Myth Directions Mything Persons** All of these books are trade paperbacks from Donning Press (aka StarBlaze editions) except * which is also in mass market paperback. ** is /very/ recent (should be out any day now! -- has anyone seen one yet?). There is also a comix edition of Myth Adventures from WARP, of which the first two editions are out. They are black and white with color covers and follow the story line reasonably closely. They claim that they will eventually publish new stories, but at the rate comix publish, and if they go through all five books, Aspirin will probably have written a few more by then and they may never catch up.... Incidentally, if you are curious what Aspirin looks like, he is one of the characters on the cover of (the trade edition of) AFM. I think he's selling sausages or something. The books are very much like sausages. After reading each one, you are convinced it is the wurst of the series. They are also like drugs because you can't wait for the next fix. [Moderator's Note: Thanks to the many people who responded with similar information: "Jim Hester" (hester@uci-750a) "Stephen R. Balzac" (LS.SRB%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC) Bernard Gunther (BMG@MIT-XX) Will Martin (wmartin@BRL-TGR) Dragon (Monica.Cellio@cmu-cs-cad) RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC Boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl (Jerry Boyajian) Hank Shiffman (Shiffman%SWW-WHITE@SCRC-STONY-BROOK) Susser.PASA@XEROX Don Woods (Woods.pa@XEROX) Bob Larson (BLARSON@ECLD.#ECLnet) ] ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 12 Sep 1984 05:48:21-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Jerry Boyajian) Subject: re: END OF THE WORLD NEWS > The third story is really about the end of the world. A rogue > planet named Lynx is due to make a destructive flyby of Earth, > round the sun, and return to collide with Earth one year later. > The story is a half-parody of "When Worlds Collide", with a dash > of "A Clockwork Orange" (another book by Burgess, which was made > into an equally depraved movie by Kubrick) thrown in for good > measure. > -jns It's not just happenstance that Burgess wrote this "half-parody" of WHEN WORLDS COLLIDE. He had been contracted to write the screenplay for a remake of that film. The project later fell through, and Burgess probably saw this book as a way to salvage his work on the script. I have not read Burgess' book, but I've wondered how he managed to avoid infringing upon Wylie and Balmer's (or their estates') copyright on WHEN WORLDS COLLIDE. By the way, if anyone has gotten a feeling of deja vu reading jns' review of Burgess' book, it might be because excerpts from the book were published in OMNI and PENTHOUSE last year. jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 11 Sep 84 09:57:54 PDT (Tuesday) From: LFeinberg.es@XEROX.ARPA Subject: A.K. Dewdney's The Planiverse In A.K. Dewdney's The Planiverse, one of the students is named Alice Little, an obvious tip o' the hat to Lewis Carroll. Yet none of the other names seemed to strike any chords with me. Did anyone else notice any other references? Some of the names of the Plainiversal persons looked like possible anagrams, but I couldn't make any of them meaningful. Lawrence ------------------------------ Date: 11 Sep 1984 14:29:32 EDT ( TUESDAY ) From: Subject: S. H. Elgin, redux Emendations and corrections to list of titles: The Communipaths Ace double, 441-11560-075, 1970 Furthest Ace, 441-25950-075, 1971 At the Seventh Level DAW, No. 10, 1972 Twelve Fair Kingdoms Doubleday, 1981 Berkley, 0-425-05850-6 250, 1983 The Grand Jubilee Doubleday, 1981 Berkley, 0-425-06045-4 250, 1983 And Then There'll be Fireworks Doubleday, 1981 Berkley, 0-425-06290-4 250, 1983 Star-Anchored, Star-angered DAW, No. 579, 1984 (May have been published earler by Doubleday) Native Tongue DAW, No.589, 1984 Ms. Elgin has also published a novelette, "For the Sake of Grace", in The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction, May 1969. This was later expanded into "At the Seventh Level". She also has a short story, "Magic Granny says Don't Meddle", in the August 1984 F&SF. She certainly has other short pieces, but I don't have the biblio. info., She had already published poetry before 1969, and has at least two books in popular linguistics. (I remember something like "Transformational Linguistics for the Beginner" -- wrong, but close -- and "More on the Gentle art of Verble Selfdefence" -- which seems to imply at least one more title.) None of which illuminates the missing ninth novel. I have written to Ms. Elgin, and will report on anything I discover. Cyril P.S. I have enjoyed everything she has written, and feel sorry for anyone who doesn't like Responsible, though I will admit to liking Troublesome a bit more. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Sep 84 09:21:24 PDT (Tuesday) Subject: Re: Looking for an out of print book (Fantasy) From: Cooper.pa@XEROX.ARPA I believe the entire trilogy has been published as one volume, sensibly titled "The Book of Swords". This would also help to explain why the publishers have apparently got themselves confused over the series. Martin. ------------------------------ Date: 9 September 1984 04:01-EDT From: Steven A. Swernofsky Subject: still more Larry Niven lightbulb jokes I thought it was: Q. How many Protectors does it take to change a lightbulb? A. None -- lightbulbs don't "smell right". Steve ------------------------------ Date: 11 Sep 84 8:59:18-PDT (Tue) From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!uw-june!apl-uw!sam @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: An Obscure Larry Niven Lightbulb Joke Q. How many Leptors does it take to change a lightbulb? A. Four, but only if they exist in a right-handed coordinate system. Sam the grinch ------------------------------ Date: 10 Sep 84 2:58:38-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!nsc!chuqui @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: The Stainless Steel Rat > A group of us has been trying to figure out a good cast for a >movie version of The Stainless Steel Rat (by Harry Harrison). >We've cast James Garner in the title role, with possibly Harrison >Ford as Inskipp. The biggest problem we're having is trying to >find a gorgeous actress who is also talented to play >Angelica/Angela/Angel... Any suggestions? Diana Rigg could do quite well in that role. Also Sigourney Weaver perhaps. >From the spotlight of the center ring: Chuqles Von Rospach {amd,decwrl,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA And now... Mutual of Omaha presents "Penguins: Antarctica's little clowns" ------------------------------ Date: 11 September 1984 03:55-EDT From: Steven A. Swernofsky Subject: Buckaroo Banzai To: Alfke.PASA @ XEROX Date: Fri, 7 Sep 84 11:58 PDT Re: Buckaroo Banzai According to rumors I heard floating around Worldcon, this movie was removed from circulation because it was not doing well. Does anyone have any more information?? As of today, Buckaroo Banzai was still playing at the Egyptian Theater in Westwood (Los Angeles, CA). It's not dead yet. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Sep 1984 14:17:25 EDT From: Macintosh Devaluation Manager From: Subject: Dune Info Among the various free handouts at this year's WorldCon was Volume 1, Number 1 of "The Dune Reader", which described itself as the "...official Dune film newsletter." While it's clearly a studio-funded 'zine, there was a fair amount of useful info containe therein, which I'll try to summarize for SFL. CASTING Kyle MacLachlan will play Paul Atreides. He's a 25-year-old actor whose previous work has been all on stage. During last year's Dune presentation, the shots were intentionally framed to prevent the audience from seeing his face -- perhaps the studio is planning to revive the star system? Francesca Annis as Lady Jessica. Previous roles include Polanski's 'Macbeth' and the Widow of the Web in 'Krull'. Jurgen Prochnow as Duke Leto. Played the Captain in 'Das Boot' and the Nazi commandant in 'The Keep'; also did a lot of work w/Fassbinder. Jose Ferrer as the Emperor. He's best known for his lead in 1950's 'Cyrano de Bergerac'. Max von Sydow will play Dr. Kynes. Sean Young as Chani; you may recall her as the replicant Rachel in 'Blade Runner'. Sian Phillips will play the Reverend Mother; a noted English actress, but not well known over here. Sting will be playing Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen. He's a cute rock star (need we say more?) Kenneth McMillan will play Baron Harkonnen. Silvana Mangano (the producer's wife) will play the other Reverend Mother; she's actually a better actress than one would expect from her taste in men. Patrick Stewart will paly Gurney Halleck. Richard Jordan has been cast as Duncan Idaho. Linda Hunt will be the Shadout Mapes; I think this was an excellent choice. And, you'll also see Everett McGill as Stilgar, Judd Omen as Jamis, Dean Stockwell as Dr. Yueh, Freddie Jones as Thufir Hawat, Brad Dourif as Piter, Jack Nance (from Eraserhead) as Nefud, Paul Smith as Beast Rabban, Virginia Madsen as Princess Irulan, Molly Wryn as Harah, and Alicia Roanne Witt as Alia. DIRECTION/PRODUCTION/SCRIPTING David Lynch ('Eraserhead', 'The Elephant Man' [two Oscars for him on that one]) is directing the film, his third. The infamous Dino De Laurentis and his daughter Raffaella are producing the film, but insiders say that they're keeping their hands to themselves. The script was written by Lynch, but has been approved by Frank Herbert. The magazine quotes Herbert in several places as loving the script and the movie. EFFECTS and CREW Director of Photography: Freddie Francis (Oscar for 'Sons and Lovers', plus 'The French Lieutenant's Woman', 'The Elephant Man', and 'Room at the Top') Production Designer: Tony Masters (nominated for Best Art Direction for '2001'; also worked on 'Lawrence of Arabia' and Papillon') Costume Design: Bob Ringwood, who did the same for 'Excalibur'. Fight Coordination: Kiyoshi Yamazaki (martial-arts expert who also worked on 'Conan the Barbarian' and 'Beastmaster') Special Sounds Designer: Alan Splet (who's been on Lynch's other two films, too). Mechanical Creatures Modeler: Carlo Rambaldi, the man who built E.T., with Oscars for that film, 'King Kong', and 'Alien'. Supervisor, Special Mechanical Effects: Kit West, who won an Oscar for work on Raiders. Supervisor, Special Photographic Effects: Barry Nolan. Special Optical Effects: Albert Whitlock, whose matte work won Oscars for 'Earthquake' and 'The Hindenburg'. Miniatures Supervisor: Brian Smithies Model Builder: Emilio Ruiz Blue Screen Director: Stanley Sayer Special Effects Photography Director: Jimmy Devis All of this makes me think that the movie has a chance of being at least half decent. Herbert's continued support doesn't affect my decision, since he probably owns a point or two of the profits and wouldn't be so silly as to cut his own throat. Oh, and for those who are interested in getting their own copies of "The Dune Reader", just write to the Dune Fan Club, 1680 N. Vine, Suite 900, Hollywood, CA 90028. Enjoy . . . ------------------------------ Date: 10 Sep 84 13:10:13-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!trwrba!cadovax!keithd @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Dune Movie Worms At WORLDCON '84, I went to one of the DUNE conferences, primarily because I thought David Lynch was going to make an appearance. He didn't, but Frank Herbert did, and commented on the movie. He said that the worms were in the film and that he thought they were everything he thought they could be but didn't show us any previews of the worms themselves. He seemed very pleased with the movie, and that it was VERY true to the book. Knowing Lynch, the worms will probably knock your socks off. When does the line start forming to see the movie? Keith Doyle ------------------------------ Date: 10 Sep 84 13:01:23-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!trwrba!cadovax!keithd @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Metropolis 1984 Several years ago, I first saw Metropolis at the FOX Venice ( or was it the Nuart?) in L.A.. I was very impressed by both the movie and the soundtrack. Later I purchased a copy of the videotape, and was disappointed to find that the soundtrack was different. Now I find there is a new soundtrack. Personally, I prefer the first one I heard, which was primarily piano and sax, a kind of Industrial Jazz that fit the visuals well, and appeared to be composed specifically for the film. The videotape had an orchestral piece that also was composed for the film, but I thought it was awful. Does anyone know: 1. what the jazz version music was, or 2. where a video copy of the film with this soundtrack might be obtained? Keith Doyle {ucbvax,decvax}!trwrb!cadovax!keithd ------------------------------ Date: 6 Sep 84 9:40:50-PDT (Thu) From: pur-ee!CS-Mordred!Pucc-H.ag4 @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Space Seed ==> TWOK -- (Botany Bay) Au contraire, there is a scene specifically showing the ship falling away from the Enterprise while Kirk narrates into his log that Khan has discarded his old ship for useless. Jeff Lewis {decvax|ucbvax|allegra|seismo|harpo|teklabs|ihnp4}!pur-ee!lewie ------------------------------ Date: 7 Sep 84 12:22:39-PDT (Fri) From: ihnp4!plus5!bob @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: the fate of the "Botany Bay" > From: Stephen R. Balzac > The fate of the Botany Bay is never made clear in the > episode. They just sort of forget about it. They aired this episode not long ago here, and I remember a quick shot of the Enterprise pulling away from the Botany Bay, leaving it a hulk in space. I somehow have the feeling that this scene gets cut by local stations to make room for comercials. Dr. Bahb USENET ..!ihnp4!plus5!bob ------------------------------ Date: 10 Sep 1984 19:57:17-EDT From: John.Wenn at CMU-CS-G Subject: HHGTTG This coming sunday (9/16/84), channel 13 will be showing all 6 TV episodes of "The HitchHiker's Guide To The Galaxy" from 2pm onward. (At least according to Pittsburgh Magazine). This is a fairly successful adaption of the first 6 radio episodes, which in turn roughly correspond to the first book and selected chapters of the second book in random order. For anyone who is not familiar with this masterpiece of SF-Humor, GO SEE IT!!! John ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 20-Sep SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #174 Date: 20 Sep 84 1207-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #174 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Sep 84 1207-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #174 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 20 Sep 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 174 Today's Topics: Books - Asprin (4 msgs) & Heinlein & McKiernan & Saberhagen & Story Request & Dragons & Upcoming Books, Films - Dune (2 msgs) & Buckaroo Banzai, Television - Star Trek Miscellaneous - Conservation of Mass & SF Cons List ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Sep 84 13:35:29-PDT (Wed) From: decvax!genrad!carlton @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Here's The Plot, What's The Title # 23 The four Myth books (by Robert Asprin) are collected in a Science Fiction Book Club edition. You can get it, and 3 other books, for 10 cents plus approx. $5.00 shipping and handling if you join as a new member. Their advertisments can be found inside your average prozine. (Analog, Fantasy & Science Fiction, Issac Asimov's....) Further, Phil Foglio (who did the cover and inside illios for the Starblaze editions) is doing a b&w comic book. It is a worthwhile adaption, interesting both for its artwork, and plot advancement. Two issues are already out. Carl Hommel Wife: What does "Yog-Soggoth went to R'leh, and all I got was this lousy tee shirt" mean? Husband: Campus Crusade for Cthulu - It found me! ------------------------------ Date: 8 Sep 84 9:23:00-PDT (Sat) From: hplabs!hp-pcd!mfc @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Re: Here's The Plot, What's The Tit It might be worthwhile to point out that your following statement is somewhat incorrect. >Further, Phil Foglio (who did the cover and inside illios for the >Starblaze editions) is doing a b&w comic book. It is a worthwhile >adaption, interesting both for its artwork, and plot advancement. >Two issues are already out. The comic book you are referring to is published by WaRP Graphics, owned and operated by Wendy and Richard Pini (of ElfQuest fame). Phil is collaborating with them on the comic (he's doing all of the art) but he's not really the one that's putting out the comic. Forgive me if I'm simply resatating what you originally meant, but your article sounded as if you meant that Phil was putting out the comic himself. Mark Cook HP-PCD Corvallis, OR ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 84 07:27 PDT From: Hank Shiffman Subject: Bob Asprin's next Myth book According to the folks at A Change of Hobbit in L.A., the next book in the Myth series is due out in November. Be warned, however, that the publisher does not have much of a reputation for meeting schedules. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Sep 84 7:55:52-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!sdcc6!ix241 @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Asprin At LA Con II in the art show I saw a Foglio painting that was listed as the cover for _Mything Persons_. The painting showed Aahz and Skeeve barely outrunning something(s) through a street. I would guess that Asprin has something in the publishing cycle for us devotees. John Testa UCSD Chemistry sdcc6!ix241 ------------------------------ Date: 11 Sep 84 18:26 EDT (Tue) From: Mijjil (Matthew J Lecin) Subject: The Green Hills Of Earth It was rather considerate for Heinlein (or his publisher, whoever got the idea first) to put it all together in one volume. All of the stories from "The Future Histories" have been published in other collections - as I snobbishly reach onto the shelf and pull out the (1958, 4th printing) paperback entitled "The Green Hills Of Earth", which contains: Delilah And The Space-Rigger Space Jockey The Long Watch Gentleman, Be Seated The Black Pits Of Luna It's Great To Be Back "- We Also Walk Dogs" Ordeal In Space The Green Hills Of Earth Logic Of Empire It is amusing that the chart of "Future History" is also given here, but it only goes up to 2600 A.D. - "Time Enough For Love" still a gleam in old RAH's eye... Of course, Lazarus is shown in the chart, or rather, shown extending off both ends of it... Trivia - give me the full quote about "...time enough for love". !* Mijjil! ------------------------------ Date: 11 Sep 84 7:10:06-PDT (Tue) From: ihnp4!ihuxx!dpa @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Dennis McKiernan There was a spot in this weeks Bell Labs News stating that an employee, Dennis McKiernan was the author of three SF books. The publisher was Doubleday and the titles are: Shadows of Doom Darkest Day The Dark Tide Does anyone Know anything about these books and are any of them still in print? Dave Allen ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 15 Sep 1984 05:13:59-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Jerry Boyajian) Subject: Saberhagen's BOOKs OF SWORDS > From: Cooper.pa@XEROX.ARPA > > I believe the entire trilogy has been published as one volume, > sensibly titled "The Book of Swords". This would also help to > explain why the publishers have apparently got themselves confused > over the series. > > Martin. Not true, unless the SF Book Club did such an omnibus. Chances are what happened is that THE FIRST BOOK OF SWORDS is in print in *mass-market* paperback, but not in its original trade-paperback edition. THE THIRD BOOK OF SWORDS may be out in trade paperback, and still in print. THE SECOND BOOK OF SWORDS, however, may well be out of print in the trade edition, and staying that way until the publisher (Tor Books) puts out a mass-market edition. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ From: garrettk.dlos@XEROX.ARPA Date: 13 Sep 84 14:39:29 CDT Subject: Looking for a name of SCI.FI short story I'm looking for the title of a science fiction short story its author and the name of the anthology its in. The plot concerns a day in earth's time being bought by an alien race that markets entertainment programs to other alien races throughout the universe. They have purchased one day in earth's time to be repeated over and over again for a thousand years. (I believe that at the end of a thousand years the earths inhabitants will be paid huge sums of money, or eternal life, both,etc). The aliens have broadcast this offer to earth but the humans have no option. The main charater is a man who begins his day by waking up beside his girlfriend, arguing with her, slapping her, walking out, and then finding an old lost love at the train station who will end her day dying in a train crash. He is a little sad at the thought of repeating this day over and over for a thousand years. He discovers though that with tremendous willpower you can change one tiny facet or thought. This is cumlative and so after some time he is able to avoid slapping his girlfriend. Later he is able to tell his long lost love that she can avoid the train crash simply by not getting on the train. This leaves the reader with a happy feeling that once again we have put one over on those imperialistic foes inhabiting the outer reaches of unknown space. Chris Beach (reply to garrettk.dlos) ------------------------------ Date: 13 Sep 84 16:04:18-EDT (Thu) From: Judi (dragonlady) Subject: HI! Let me say that after receiving my first few SF lovers' digests, all of which contained nasty slurs on Piers Anthony, I appreciate Bob Larsen & Michael Berch defending him somewhat. APPRENTICE ADEPT and especially the XANTH books are *very* enjoyable reading, if only for the unforgivable puns. Now, I am a collector of dragons of all shapes, sizes, kinds, and forms, and if any of you spot a *good* dragon book(*not* any more bad medieval fantasy and *not* Anne McCaffrey; I've got all of hers), I would appreciate hearing about it. In case you haven't heard, DRAGONS OF LIGHT is a fantastic collection of short stories and poems, fantasy and SF, edited by Orson Scott Card. A companion novel, DRAGONS OF DARKNESS was due out fall, 1983, but I haven't been able to locate it yet. The former is worth reading, even if you don't particularly like dragons. Have any of you decided how to spell yet? Judi (The Dragon Lady, et.al.) ------------------------------ Date: 14 Sep 84 15:18:12 PDT (Friday) From: Hoffman.es@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Forthcoming SF Scattered gleanings from the fat Fall Releases issue of Publisher's Monthly: OCTOBER K. Kurtz, 'The Bishop's Heir', Del Rey, $15 R. Silverberg, 'Gilgamesh the King', Arbor House, $17 NOVEMBER K. Fonstad, 'The Atlas of Pern', Del Rey, $20 J. R. R. Tolkein, 'The Book of Lost Tales, Part II', Houghton Mifflin, $15 J. Williamson, 'Lifeburst', Del Rey, $13 DECEMBER I. Asimov, 'Opus 300', Houghton Mifflin, $18 S. R. Delany, 'Stars in My Pocket Like Grains of Sand', Bantam, $17 M. Randall (ed.), 'The Nebula Awards, #19', Arbor House, $17 JANUARY S. Lem, 'Microworlds: Writings on Science Fiction and Fantasy', Harcourt, Brace, Jovanovich, $16 --Rodney Hoffman ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 1984 23:35 EDT From: RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: Macintosh Devaluation Manager@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA, To: Subject: Dune Info Date: Monday, 10 September 1984 14:17-EDT From: Macintosh Devaluation Manager at csnet-relay.arpa, To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC Re: Dune Info Among the various free handouts at this year's WorldCon was Volume 1, Number 1 of "The Dune Reader", which described itself as the "...official Dune film newsletter." While it's clearly a studio-funded 'zine, there was a fair amount of useful info containe therein, which I'll try to summarize for SFL. CASTING . . . Sting will be playing Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen. He's a cute rock star (need we say more?) Probably. Sting is actually an above-average actor. His portrayal of a loner in "Brimstone and Treacle" was (to me) very interesting and complex. Defender of stereotypees, James M. Turner RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 84 21:30 EDT (Sun) From: Mijjil (Matthew J Lecin) Subject: Dune trivia - hplabs!hao!seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!bllklly I guess everyone's rereading Dune to have it fresh in mind for the movie release. (I met two other people reading it in two days.) Did anyone else notice the hidden reference to Poul Anderson? Now, I consider myself to be an ichiban Dune fan. Perhaps I am not familiar enough with the works of Poul Anderson to have caught it - it's been 2 weeks, I give up. Whats the reference? !* Mijjil! ------------------------------ Date: 14 Sep 84 05:30:43 PDT (Fri) To: "Steven A. Swernofsky" Cc: Alfke.PASA@xerox Subject: Re: Buckaroo Banzai From: Marshall Rose Well, maybe it's still playing in Southern California, but it hasn't hit the East coast yet. I hope that it gets here soon, after all it did open a month ago on the West coast. On another note, I read the book last night. Although the style is interesting (Reno, the narrator, tells you everything before it happens), I didn't like it as well as the film. The interesting part is that the book and film have different accounts of Banzai's news conference. Unfortunately, the book also has a photo of that scene from the film which (naturally) conflicts with the book's version. Apparently, someone caught this and (sloppily) "fixed" the photo to match the book's version. Real sloppy. /mtr ------------------------------ Date: 10 Sep 84 19:33:47-PDT (Mon) From: ihnp4!pegasus!naiman @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Asimov/Trekkie fans, (myself included) -- an interesting Subject: corolation I was watching "Assignment: Earth" last night and heard something interesting. When Gary Seven asked Roberta Lincoln what she was supposedly employed for, she replied : "Research for a new encyclopedia (with that funny quizzical look of hers) ??" As us Asimov fans know, that was the Foundations official reason for moving to the edge of the galaxy. There is another thing to look for if you happen to be watching that episode. When there are just a few seconds left before the bomb will go off, Kirk and Spock say something along these lines : Kirk : "Spock, if you can't figure out how to work this thing in the next few seconds I'm going to have to let him (Gary) do it." Spock : "Admittedly, it's a difficult decision." Look at Kirk's face when Spock is talking. He looks like he's about to smile. It's as though he were saying : "Why don't you say something obvious Spock." Oh well, I guess you have to be there. While I'm talking about "Assignment: Earth", I have five questions/comments : 1) Why couldn't Scotty blow up the rocket ? Scotty mentioned the possibility but that he'd have to move to a lower orbit. It's possible that by the time the dust settled (with getting Kirk + Spock out of NASA), it was too late to move to a lower orbit. Although, Scotty should have taken that into account. 2) How did the Enterprise travel thru time ? 3) Why did Kirk + Spock not get beamed directly to Gary's apartment the first time ? 4) Why did they Kirk only know about the history of the rocket and Gary Seven at the end of the show ? 5) The cat/human was definitely not in the credits. Questions #3 and #4 don't deserve answers. Despite my questions I thought this ranked in the top ten episodes. ==> Ephrayim J. Naiman @ AT&T Information Systems Laboratories (201) 576-6259 Paths: [ihnp4, allegra, hogpc, maxvax, cbosgd, lzmi, ...]! pegasus!naiman ------------------------------ Date: 10 Sep 84 8:34:48-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!ut-sally!utastro!ethan @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: re: conservation of center of mass of the universe Perhaps this belongs in net.physics ... but converting mass to energy (or vice-versa) does not in any way invalidate the correct generalization of the invariance of the center of mass of an isolated system. The center of *mass-energy* does just fine thank you. As to the center of mass of the universe, I'm not sure what that is, or if that concept can be given any rigorous definition. However, the argument still follows if we consider the planets, stellar systems whatever that include the beginning and endpoints of the matter transmission as an isolated system. Ethan Vishniac ------------------------------ Date: Wed 12 Sep 84 01:35:07-PDT From: Rich Zellich Subject: SF Cons list updated SRI-NIC file CONS.TXT has been updated and is available for FTP. SRI-NIC supports the net-standard "ANONYMOUS" Login within FTP, using any password. CONS.TXT is currently 1322 lines (or 64,178 characters). For those desiring a hardcopy of the list, a 50%-reduced size version is available for 50 cents at St. Louis in '88 bid parties, or 75 cents via mail from: St. Louis in '88 Worldcon Bid PO Box 1058 St. Louis, MO 63188 Enjoy, Rich ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 20-Sep SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #175 Date: 20 Sep 84 1428-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #175 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Sep 84 1428-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #175 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 20 Sep 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 175 Today's Topics: Books - Dickson & Heinlein & Hogan & Out of Print Books & Looking for a Book, Films - Buckaroo Banzai & The Stainless Steel Rat (3 msgs), Television - Star Trek (2 msgs) & Day of the Triffids ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Sep 84 18:00:13-PDT (Wed) From: pur-ee!CS-Mordred!Pucc-H.Physics.dub @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Final-ly here Well, it's out!!! Gordon R. Dickson's Final Encyclopedia... I just spotted it in a local bookstore (Von's). I believe it is published by Doublesday (don't shoot me if I'm wrong) It is hardcover, 600 plus pages and ..drumroll please.. the page edges are evenly cut! No, I didn't buy it. I didn't have $19 on me at the time. Dwight Bartholomew UUCP: { decvax, icalqa, ihnp4, inuxc, sequent, uiucdcs } !pur-ee!Physics:dub { decwrl, hplabs, icase, psuvax1, siemens, ucbvax } !purdue!Physics:dub ------------------------------ Date: 12 Sep 84 13:23:00-PDT (Wed) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!ea!mwm @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Re: Job: A Comedy of Justice - (nf) Yes, Job is another of Heinlein's books where pontificating to the reader seems to be the main purpose. Ned Danieley duke!ndd Yes, but it's such *fun* pontification. For instance, the list of ** START MINOR SPOILER ** "worthwhile achievments" for Alex (even he isn't sure!): a) A federal law making abortion a capital offense. b) A federal making the manufacture, sale, possession, importation, transportation or use of any/all contraceptive devices a felony. No outs "for prevention of diseases only." c) A federal law placing gambling under federal jurisdiction. d) Community standards of the median-population city applying to all cities in a state. e) Progress towards getting tobacco defined as a prescription drug. f) Progress towards depriving schools not affiliated with a Christian sect of their tax-free status, possibly including Catholic schools. and the "to-do" list for next years: g) Determine if there is a humane solution to the "jewish problem." h) Work on frustrating astronomers. i) Quit paying attention to "suffragettes." j) Separate schools for boys and girls. k) Restore the death penalty for Witchcraft and Satanism. l) The Alaska option for the "negro problem." m) Homosexuals - Punishment, surgery or something else? I enjoyed watching RAH pontificate on the subject of religious intolerance while his protagonist preached for the other side. RAH also hit his two old favorites: anti-fascist and pro-honor/responsibility. I didn't notice these as much as I did in NOTB. Maybe I'm getting immunized? He also displayed his sexist streak again - the female protagonist was (smarter, more tolerant, less argumentative, more flexible) than the male protagonist. JOB looks so much like NOTB that I suspect that RAH has found a formula he likes - and is using it in his books to sell his message. It appears to work. I had trouble finding a place to put JOB down - I failed at it. !intelca!cem {ucbvax,hao}!hplabs/ ARPAnet : "hplabs!intelca!cem"@Berkeley ------------------------------ Date: 13 Sep 84 7:09:14-PDT (Thu) From: ihnp4!houxm!mhuxl!abnjh!lute @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Finding Out of Print Books. In regards to my earlier inquiry on obtaining the out of print (oopb) "Second Book of Swords" by Fred Saberhagen, I received this recommendation from a fellow netter, on a place in N.H. that might be able to help one locate oopbs. "The local bookstore here in Hanover does searches for out of print books. So far I've tried to get about five, and they've only failed on one. [And that was a very obscure book.] You pay to oops, two dollars for advertising, but if they find the book, it gets refunded. [They knock two bucks off the price -- which is usually dirt cheap anyway.] Something like the second piece of a trilogy shouldn't be hard to find." The address is Dartmouth Bookstore Main St. Hanover, N.H. 03755 (603) 643-3616 I hope this information proves useful to some of you out there. Jim Collymore ------------------------------ Date: 14 Sep 84 11:47:58-PDT (Fri) From: ihnp4!houxm!houxf!dma @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Looking for a SF book I'm trying to locate a science fiction book. I read part of it a couple of years ago and returned it to the library. Since then, I've been unable to find it again because I forgot both the author and the title. It is set in the post-nuclear-war future in Great Britain. Civilization and science have degenerated. Representatives of the government (called "the ram") travel around giving a puppet show with propagandistic overtones. A principal character in the show ie "Eusa" or something like that. From the context it seems like a misspelling of USA. There are a number of ritual sites located in a circular pattern around the country. In fact, the title way well include something like "circle" or "ring" or something like that. The main character teams up with a mutant of some sort. That's about all I remember. Any leads to the book - title, author or anything else would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. Doug Anderson AT&T Bell Laboratories houxf!dma ------------------------------ Date: 14 Sep 84 13:26:37-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!nsc!proper!dsmith @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Buckaroo Banzai Buckaroo Banzai is reputed to be opening tomorrow (9-15) in San Francisco. David L. Smith @ Proper Unix ------------------------------ Date: 19 Sep 84 13:38:46 PDT (Wednesday) From: LFeinberg.es@XEROX.ARPA Subject: query - Cronenburg and "Brainstorm"? The movie "Brainstorm" had very much the look of the director [Walter?] Cronenberg, who directed Scanners, Videodrome, and a couple other movies. This "look" was evidenced in the casting, the subject and script, and in the high-tech institutional shots throughtout the movie. Can anyone tell me if he was ever associated with the movie? Was he the original director before Natalie Wood's death put the movie on hold? Lawrence "What's a beast without an algorithm?" p.s. Moderate spoiler --> One more reason that Brainstorm is worthwhile: The first major motion picture where someone dies of smoking! ------------------------------ Date: 11 Sep 84 7:35:17-PDT (Tue) From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!fluke!moriarty @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: The Stainless Steel Rat Absolutely, Sigourney Weaver would be perfect as Angelica (she has that homicidal look she can put on, as in GHOSTBUSTERS). Garner's getting a little old... howsabout Daniel Hughes-Kelley, (last name may be wrong), who does a nice job with a bad script as McCormick on HARDCASTLE & MCCORMICK? Yes, I know, a relative unknown (at least he's not my relative [insert raspberry here]). Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc. UUCP: {cornell,decvax,ihnp4,sdcsvax,tektronix,utcsrgv}!uw-beaver \ {allegra,gatech!sb1,hplabs!lbl-csam,decwrl!sun,ssc-vax} -- !fluke!moriarty ARPA: fluke!moriarty@uw-beaver.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 12 Sep 84 17:45:39-PDT (Wed) From: decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!akgua!psuvax1!burdvax!sjuvax!bbane From: rje @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: The Stainless Steel Rat >> A group of us has been trying to figure out a good cast for a >> movie version of The Stainless Steel Rat (by Harry Harrison). >> We've cast James Garner in the title role, with possibly Harrison >> Ford as Inskipp. The biggest problem we're having is trying to >> find a gorgeous actress who is also talented to play >> Angelica/Angela/Angel... Any suggestions? Don't you have the two actors mixed up? Inskipp is the old has been. Obviously Garner should play him, with Harrison Ford in the title role. Angelica is a very difficult role to fill. Gorgeous isn't the half of it. Angelica had *BRAINS* and no scruples whatsoever (My kind of Woman :-). I can't think of any established actress who could do justice to her. Regards, Binayak Banerjee {allegra | astrovax | bpa | burdvax}!sjuvax!bbanerje P.S. Send Flames, I love mail. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Sep 84 8:34:06-PDT (Mon) From: decvax!mcnc!unc!walker @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: The Stainless Steel Rat How about Sigourney Weaver as Angelina? ------------------------------ Date: 14 Sep 84 10:33:15-PDT (Fri) From: decvax!mcnc!unc!walker @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Asimov/Trekkie fans, (myself included) -- an interesting Subject: corolation I'm not sure, but I seem to remember the opening sequence mentioning the use of the Guardian of Forever to send them back. I also seem to remember that the Enterprise's deflector shields kept them from being detected, and in the other episode, the deflectors had been knocked out. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 84 22:32:32-PDT (Sun) From: decvax!mit-athena!martillo @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Asimov/Trekkie fans, (myself included) -- an interesting Subject: corolation Obviously noone noticed the big lumbering star ship because the Enterprise was testing out the cloaking device which had been swiped from the Romulans. Yaqim Martillo ------------------------------ Date: 14 Sep 84 9:58:27-PDT (Fri) From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!pegasus!hocsj!ecl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS (BBC Version) DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS: Thoughts on Seeing the Play By Mark R. Leeper Some thoughts on THE DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS as I'm watching the BBC version for the third time. The reason that the 1961 film was so bad compared to the book and the BBC version is that it missed the point of the story. The film producers saw the book and thought "monsters." Triffids are man-eating plants and they could make a monster movie. They missed the point entirely. THE DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS is really about society and what makes it work. It's about what makes small societies successful so they grow into big societies. The comet flashes--if that's what they were--that blinded all but a tiny fraction of society shook up the culture and everyone had to start over, forming their own small societies. The new society game is played in rounds, as I see it. In each round it gets successively tougher for a society to survive. In round one, we see if a society is strong enough to hold together on its own. In THE DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS the ones that fail here are the ones that try to hold onto their valuable, sighted people claiming need. In these, the blind tell the sighted people, "Please don't go; we can't survive without you." It is a sad thing, but need alone does not suffice to hold people who are required. In round one, the societies that survive are the ones that offer their valuable people more than just a sense of doing the right thing. In round one, the name of the game is cohesion. In round two, a society finds itself bumping up against other societies. Round two is all about competition. There is competition for food and resources. Jack Coker's first society of captive sighted people leading multiple groups of blind people was cohesively stable, perhaps even fair. But in round two, they could not survive marauders with guns. A few sighted people with guns smashed Coker's groups. Some societies work by militant defense, some by isolation, but the society that cannot avoid being destroyed by other societies obviously cannot survive. Round three involves natural enemies, particularly disease. The society at Tynshin survived the first two rounds. Many might have died eventually by poor planning, but a nucleus probably would have survived. They died from the plague. The defense here is either the scientific knowledge of how to combat the disease or being a society of large enough population that it can survive attacks of its natural enemies. This is one of the things wrong with the old films in which everyone is wiped out but one man and one woman. These films end up with the two people walking off into the sunset under the title "The Beginning." Well, it's the beginning of a very short story. Without a critical mass of people, a society will die out through disease and inbreeding. For those societies who make it past round three, there is a fourth round waiting, sort of a super-version of competition involving a relatively alien, intelligent culture. It is not until this round that the triffids are anything but a minor natural menace, killing off only the blind and the weak. For the societies that survive disease, this is a much more powerful enemy. The militaristic group we meet at the end of the novel have things pretty well in hand with tanks and presumably captured medical supplies, perhaps even doctors. When Bill Mason lets the triffids in on them, however, it is quite another story. Bill's response to this super- competition is to retreat to the Channel Islands and plot humanity's return to England. Whether he can do that or even survive on the Islands we are never told. At any rate, there is a degree of depth and complexity in the book and the play that makes THE DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS a much more serious work than its plot makes it seem. If you haven't read it for a few years, read it again. (Evelyn C. Leeper for) Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!lznv!mrl ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 24-Sep SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #176 Date: 24 Sep 84 1305-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #176 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 24 Sep 84 1305-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #176 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 24 Sep 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 176 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Asprin & Brust (2 msgs) & Heinlein (3 msgs) & Hogan (2 msgs) & Niven & Dead Authors, Films - Brainstorm (3 msgs), Magazines - A Request, Miscellaneous - Rumors & SF/Fantasy License Plates ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 17 Sep 84 11:29:53-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!ames!bub @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Piers Anthony - MACROSCOPE With all this pro-ing and con-ing of Piers Anthony nobody has mentioned Macroscope, which I thought was just great. The concept of the signal from space that would drive you crazy only if you were above a certain level of intelligence was particularly intriguing (I mean, what would it contain be?). Is Macroscope out of print (I read it a long time ago) or did I just miss any remarks about it? I think most of his other stuff is too similar. He seems to have a sort of standard plot and characters and just changes the situations, location, and brand of aliens. Bub {dual,hao,ihnp4,philabs,vortex}!ames!bub ------------------------------ Date: 14 Sep 84 8:04:02-PDT (Fri) From: ihnp4!houxm!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!fluke!moriarty @ From: Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Myth Advenures As "The Science Fiction Book Club" has asked me to rejoin (they know which side their bread is buttered on), one of my choices was a 4-in-1 collection of the "Myth" adventures. One hopes that you don't have to sign up to get the book... "It's not MY GODDAMN PLANET, Monkey Boy!" Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc. UUCP: {cornell,decvax,ihnp4,sdcsvax,tektronix,utcsrgv}!uw-beaver \ {allegra,gatech!sb1,hplabs!lbl-csam,decwrl!sun,ssc-vax} -- !fluke!moriarty ARPA: fluke!moriarty@uw-beaver.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 19 Sep 84 17:48:00-PDT (Wed) From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uokvax!lmaher @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Jhereg: review, no spoilers - (nf) This is an enthusiastic endorsement of dartvax!betsy's recommendation of _Jhereg_ and _Yendi_, written by Steven Brust. Note that the events in _Yendi_ (the second book) occur *before* the events in Jhereg, and it's better to read it first. I'm hoping Brust will see fit to complete the cycle with 15 more. Carl ..!ctvax!uokvax!lmaher ------------------------------ Date: 4 Oct 84 21:52:00-EDT (Thu) From: pur-ee!uiucdcsb!mcdaniel @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Jhereg: review, no spoilers - (nf) Ditto on endorsement of Jhereg. ------------------------------ Date: Thu Sep 20 20:36:31 1984 From: mclure@sri-prism Subject: On Reading Mr. Heinlein I have done my fair share of Heinlein reading over the years. Yes, he was an innovator. Yes, he brought SF to a new level of quality compared with the old "pulp" SF. Yes, his plots were more complex and interwoven, but... I think Heinlein's dialogue and characterizations are flimsy and thin compared to some of the better writers of the 50's, 60's, and 70's. I don't enjoy a majority of his characters. Blasphemy? ... Perhaps. Compared to the characterizations of an Ellison, or Varley, or Silverberg, Mr. Heinlein, in my opinion, pales in comparison. And of course, next to some of the better writers outside of the SF genre, he becomes a ghost of an author. Stuart ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 84 18:52:25-PDT (Sun) From: decvax!cwruecmp!atvax!ncoast!bsa @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Re: Job: A Comedy of Justice - (nf) > From: mwm@ea.UUCP > He also displayed his sexist streak again - the female protagonist > was (smarter, more tolerant, less argumentative, more flexible) > than the male protagonist. Has anyone else noticed that he started writing about intelligent (redheaded) females at about the time he met one? Maybe she "hit him with an anvil"? :-) --bsa ------------------------------ Date: 20 Sep 84 10:19:34-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!tektronix!orca!iddic!rick @ Ucb-Vax.arpa I haven't read Job yet (the hardback price is pretty steep, and I don't trust RAH to always write a good book anymore), but he certainly has a line up of heavy recommendations on the back of the jacket. I'm sure Issac Asimov must endorse a lot of books, but I thought he had no love lost for Heinlein. Niven and Pournelle owe RAH one or two, so they're not too surprising. I _was_ surprised to see Arthur C. Clarke on there, though; does he do a lot of this kind of thing? Rick Coates tektronix!iddic!rick ------------------------------ Date: 17 Sep 84 13:24:19-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-mrvax!ddb @ From: Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Tom Hogan Is this Tom Hogan, who wrote Code of the Lifemaker, any relation to the James P. Hogan who has a work with a very similar title in print? -- David Dyer-Bennet -- ...decwrl!rhea!mrvax!ddb ------------------------------ Date: 17 Sep 84 12:28:39-PDT (Mon) From: decvax!mcnc!unc!walker @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Book Review : Code of the LifeMaker Is 'Tom' somehow short for 'James P.'? I thought that James P. Hogan wrote _Code_of_the_Life_Maker_. ------------------------------ Date: 21 Sep 84 08:39 PDT (Friday) From: Dewing.PA@XEROX.ARPA Subject: : Gravity on a Integral Tree In Larry Nivens book 'The Integral Tree' I don't understand the 'gravity'. In the tree tufts there is 'gravity' and in the mid-trunk area there is zero g. How is this possible. The tree doesn't rotate end for end, one end is always toward Voy. Can anyone out there explain it in a relatively simple manner? Thanks Ahead, John Dewing P.S. I thought it odd that in the seemingly male oriented society on London Tree that the Scientist's Apprentice was female. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Sep 84 5:56:08-PDT (Sat) From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian @ From: Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: re: Wyndham's WEB > From: hocsj!ecl 11-Sep-1984 12:19:19 > > I guess what started that trend was Tolkien's SILMARILLION. > More recently there was a new "Fuzzy" novel by H. Beam Piper. > There are whole series of Doc Smith and Robert E. Howard books > published after the author's death with the help of a co-author > that the poor dead author never chose. Methinks that you show a slight ignorance of this subject. First of all, this trend you describe started *long* before THE SILMARILLION. DeCamp and Carter, for instance, were hauling Robert Howard material out long before Christopher Tolkien did the same with Dear Old Dad. Secondly, The circumstances behind Piper's lost Fuzzy novel had nothing at all with whether Piper thought it was good enough to be published. He had written it, but never got around to submitting it before he blew his brains out, because he thought his stuff wasn't selling well enough for him to make a living as a writer. And as far as the dead author never choosing his "collaborator", Jerry Pournelle has written permission *from Piper himself* to write more Space Viking novels (now if only Jerry would write the suckers!). Thirdly, the "new Doc Smith" books are nothing of the sort, except for SUBSPACE ENCOUNTER. The first Family D'Alembert book was a novelette by Smith expanded by Stephen Goldin into a novel. The further books in that series are *solely* the work of Goldin, though there are claims that he's working from notes left by Smith, and despite the use of the collaborative byline. The same is true of the Lord Tedric series by Gordon Eklund. And the new Lensman books are solely the work of the authors whose bylines are on the books. As for the Robert E. Howard material, there has never been any pretense that it is "new" material by Howard. In some cases, whole stories found in storage have been published here and there, but in most cases what we end up with is DeCamp, Carter, or whoever writing a story from notes or fragments found in Howard's papers. And in all of these cases, a collaborative byline is used. I also think you are making a mistake in assuming that the reason a given story was never published in the author's lifetime was because it was an inferior work, and that the author recognized it as such. In the case of Howard, it was simply that many of his stories couldn't find a market. Some of the stories of his that found their way into print in the last couple of decades have been a lot better than much of what he sold in his lifetime, and I am glad they were discovered. In the case of WEB, it could well be that Wyndham couldn't find anyone who wanted to buy it, not that he was "ashamed" of it. Remember, Cordwainer Smith couldn't sell "Scanners Live in Vain" for *years*, but once it finally found its way into print, it was hailed as a classic. Madeleine L'Engle tried selling A WRINKLE IN TIME for quite a while before one publisher finally accepted it, and then it won the Newbery Award as Best Chidren's Novel of the Year. Admittedly, there are times when I think it gets a little out of hand, and often a "collaborator" doesn't do justice to the original author's material. On the other hand, many of these "resurrections" are for reasons of literary historical interest, such as, say, T. H. White's THE BOOK OF MERLIN. I can sympathize with the idea that an author may not have wanted some of his work to see the light of day, but I can also sympathize with his fans' interest in seeing more work from that author. Are their "rights" any less important than his? I don't mean to come down so hard, and I could well be reading things into your comments that you didn't intend. But I felt the need to debate your comments. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Thu Sep 20 21:21:23 1984 From: mclure@sri-prism Subject: Brainstorm could have been great I thought this movie had potential but that it was totally mis-used. Remember the scene where Chris Walken and Natalie Wood (husband and wife) discover what each other think of each other via the mind reading device? He sees himself through her eyes. I thought that was an extremely powerful scene, worthy of building an entire movie around. But unfortunately it was only a brief encounter. The whole movie, instead of centering on science and that absurd lab with its awfully designed equipment should have centered on the breakup of the marriage of these two people, formerly in love. It should have concentrated on what they felt about each other and how the machine reveals it to each of them. Then, knowing what the other person thinks, the breakup accelerates, perhaps into violence. I was enthralled when Walken put on the cap and saw himself through Natalie Wood's eyes. I still think this is the best scene in the movie, when he is seeing what they did in the early days of their marriage through her mind: the fun, the joy, the love. And as he persists with the mind reading device, he sees the decay and how she perceives his worsening attitude toward her. Great stuff! I wish I could have had a look at the script and made some recommendations before they started filming. Stuart ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Sep 84 23:44:32 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: "Brainstorm" and Cronenberg Cronenberg had nothing to do with "Brainstorm" at any point, as far as I've heard. It was a Douglas Trumbull film all the way. The story was from a screenwriter (whose name I don't remember); Trumbull discovered his script and, I believe, helped him adapt it. Trumbull originally conceived "Brainstorm" to showcase his Showscan process. It went from studio to studio, always with Trumbull attached, and he was finally able to make it as part of a deal involving rescue work on the special effects for "Star Trek: The Motion Picture". When Natalie Wood died, it was largely Trumbull's persistence that kept the film going. "Brainstorm" is definitely Trumbull's film, start to finish. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 21 Sep 1984 06:18:27-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Jerry Boyajian) Subject: BRAINSTORM/Cronenberg > From: LFeinberg.es@XEROX.ARPA > The movie "Brainstorm" had very much the look of the director > [Walter?] Cronenberg, who directed Scanners, Videodrome, and a > couple other movies. This "look" was evidenced in the casting, > the subject and script, and in the high-tech institutional shots > throughtout the movie. Can anyone tell me if he was ever > associated with the movie? Was he the original director before > Natalie Wood's death put the movie on hold? Nope. It was Doug Trumball all the way. A few points: (1) It's David Cronenberg. (2) The only similarity I could see in the casting was the male lead Christopher Walken in both BRAINSTORM and Cronenberg's THE DEAD ZONE. Cronenberg tends to use Canadian bit-players, and/or moderate-unknowns. BRAINSTORM was star-studded. (3) The only similarity that I could see in the story is that Cronenberg has a fetish for plots of a biological (or, more accurately, physiological) nature. It would be stretching things to say that BRAINSTORM had a similar theme, but the point *could* be argued. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ From: mcb%lll-tis.arpa@lll-tis (Michael C. Berch) Date: Fri Sep 21 21:58:44 1984 Subject: Magazine request: Cineflex (?) My cousin is looking for the issue of Cineflex (Cinefex??) that featured Ghostbusters on the cover. It is apparently the issue before the one now on the racks. Evidently the Ghostbusters issue was very popular and sold out quickly. None of the sf/movie bookstores around here seem to have it & one is actively looking for copies. I am not familiar with the publication and so probably don't even have the title right, but any information would be appreciated. Michael Berch mcb@lll-tis.arpa ...ucbvax!lbl-csam!lll-tis!mcb ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 84 16:21 EDT From: Boebert@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Overheard at a Writer's Conference 1. Twilight Zone should return Fall of '85. Same producer as "Simon and Simon." 2. Heinlein's "Tunnel in the Sky" has been sold to Fox. ------------------------------ Date: Sat 22 Sep 84 02:46:44-PDT From: Bruce Subject: SF/Fantasy License Plates I have just gotten license plates for my car which say LSN1RLN. I am curious about other people who have clever SF/Fantasy related license plates. (By clever, I mean something other than a license plate that simply says "SF 1984" or whatever (no offense intended to the proud possessors of such plates!)). Part of the fun of the clever plates, of course, is figuring out what they are supposed to say! If people send them to me off-net, I will post a list of the plates and after a suitable lag time publish a list of explanations. leban%hplabs@csnet-relay (CSNET) ... hplabs!leban (UUCP) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 24-Sep SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #177 Date: 24 Sep 84 1415-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #177 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 24 Sep 84 1415-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #177 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 24 Sep 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 177 Today's Topics: Books - Hoban (2 msgs) & Saberhagen & Book Query & Dead Authors & Jokes (2 msgs), Films - Buckaroo Banzai (2 msgs), Radio - Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri 21 Sep 84 00:17:54-EDT From: Peter G. Trei Subject: Re: Trying to find an SF book.... > I'm trying to locate a science fiction book. I read part of it a > couple of years ago and returned it to the library. Since then, > I've been unable to find it again because I forgot both the author > and the title. > It is set in the post-nuclear-war future in Great Britain. > Civilization and science have degenerated. Representatives of the > government (called "the ram") travel around giving a puppet show > with propagandistic overtones. A principal character in the show > ie "Eusa" or something like that. From the context it seems like > a misspelling of USA. There are a number of ritual sites located > in a circular pattern around the country. In fact, the title way > well include something like "circle" or "ring" or something like > that. The main character teams up with a mutant of some sort. > That's about all I remember. > Any leads to the book - title, author or anything else would be > greatly appreciated. Thank you. > Doug Anderson > AT&T Bell Laboratories > houxf!dma There is no doubt in my mind that you were reading RIDDLEY WALKER, by Russel Hoban (1980 Summit Books $12.95, ISBN 0-671-42147-6). One of the major points of interest of RW was its writing style, which I can best show by entering the first paragraph: On my naming day when I come 12 I gone front spear and kilt a wyld boar he parbly ben the las wyld pig on the Bundel Downs any how there hadnt been none for a long time befor him nor I aint looking to see none agen. He dint make the groun shake nor nothing like that when he come on to my spear he wernt all that big plus he lookit poorly. He done the reqwryt he ternt and stood and clattert hes teef and made his rush and there we were then. Him on 1 end of the spear kicking his life out and me on the other end watching him dy. I said, 'Your tern now my tern later.' The other spears gone in then and he were dead and the steam coming up off him in the rain and we all yelt, 'Offert!'. The entire book (220 pages) is written in this style; after a remarkably short time you cease to notice it. Back when it first came out, RW has highly praised by many critics outside the SF field; I can't remember, but I think it won the Pulitzer Prize. (??) It is definitely worth going to some trouble to find. Peter Trei oc.trei%cu20b@columbia-20.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Sep 1984 12:03:24 EDT From: Macintosh Devaluation Manager From: Subject: Which Book Was It? The book set in a post-holocaust future which mentions "Eusa" is, I believe, Russell Hoban's novel "Riddley Walker". This book, which won some awards and was a close runner-up for others (including the Hugo), was one of my own favorites of last year. It's not an easy read, because Hoban has very carefully worked out all the details of the dialect spoken by the characters (who, since they're descended from the present-day residents of the English countryside, would be a bit hard to understand even now . . .), and has written the entire book in this dialect. Nevertheless, it's worth it. Hoban's other works, many of which are worth noting, include a number of children's books (esp. "The Mouse and His Child"), the intriguing fantasy novel "The Lion of Boaz-Jachin and Jachin-Boaz", and the recent "Pilgermann". Overall, an important present-day author of several varieties of fiction. --Dave Axler [Moderator's Note: Thanks also to the following people for similar information: Evelyn C. Leeper (ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!pegasus!hocsj!ecl@Ucb-Vax) Ethan Vishniac (hplabs!hao!seismo!ut-sally!utastro!ethan@Ucb-Vax) Donn Seeley (donn@utah-cs) ] ------------------------------ Date: 19 Sep 84 17:09:24-PDT (Wed) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!stuart @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Saberhagen's BOOKs OF SWORDS I spoke with somebody at a local B.Dalton Booksellers recently and got the following info (some of it unconfirmed) about the Book(s) of Swords. The publisher pulled the Second Book before many (any?) copies of the initial printing were ever distributed. Nobody I've talked to anywhere knows why. The (1) First Book is currently available in mass market format (fact), and I assume, in trade format as well ('though you might have to order it). The (2) Second Book is supposed to be released by the end of the year in mass market (regular paperback size) format (unconfirmed). The (3) Third Book, which is currently available in trade format (fact), is supposed to be released around the end of the year in mass market format (unconfirmed). Stu Friedberg {seismo, allegra}!rochester!stuart stuart@rochester ------------------------------ Date: Thu Sep 20 18:05:08 1984 From: mclure@sri-prism Subject: book query Does anyone out there know more about the book called How to Enjoy Yourself During the Decline of Western Civilization --- -- ----- -------- ------ --- ------- -- ------- ------------ I don't know who the author is. I am wondering if anyone out there has read it and if so, what you thought of it. Stuart ------------------------------ Date: 19 Sep 84 5:27:40-PDT (Wed) From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!pegasus!hocsj!ecl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: re: re: Wyndham's WEB jayembee, >Methinks that you show a slight ignorance of this subject. First >of all, this trend you describe started *long* before THE >SILMARILLION. DeCamp and Carter, for instance, were hauling >Robert Howard material out long before Christopher Tolkien did the >same with Dear Old Dad. That is probably true, they did. However I am not sure I really see it as a trend until Tolkien did it. Such diverse works as MYSTERY OF EDWIN DROOD and TURANDOT had unchosen co-authors after the famous author's death. It is a moot point when it became a trend. >Secondly, The circumstances behind Piper's lost Fuzzy novel had >nothing at all with whether Piper thought it was good enough to be >published. He had written it, but never got around to submitting >it before he blew his brains out, because he thought his stuff >wasn't selling well enough for him to make a living as a writer. What I had heard was that the last Fuzzy novel had apparently actually been hidden by the author. I don't remember the exact story, but it seems to me it was hidden at the bottom of a box of correspondence or or a stationery box or something of the sort. It was really this story that prompted my original comments. >And as far as the dead author never choosing his "collaborator", >Jerry Pournelle has written permission *from Piper himself* to >write more Space Viking novels (now if only Jerry would write the >suckers!). If you look at what I said, I claimed only that Smith and Howard did not choose their co-authors. Who said that Piper never chose a collaborator? Any reference I made to Piper concerned the new Fuzzy novel and that I said concerned a related trend co-authoring trend. >Thirdly, the "new Doc Smith" books are nothing of the sort, except >for SUBSPACE ENCOUNTER. The first Family D'Alembert book was a >novelette by Smith expanded by Stephen Goldin into a novel. The >further books in that series are *solely* the work of Goldin, >though there are claims that he's working from notes left by >Smith, and despite the use of the collaborative byline. I still contend that they claim to be collaborations with the dead author. Smith's name is prominently on the cover. Whether or not they are really serious collaborations, the way the Conan books are, is irrelevant. They are still using the dead author's name to sell books without the dead author's consent. >The same is true of the Lord Tedric series by Gordon Eklund. And >the new Lensman books are solely the work of the authors whose >bylines are on the books. >As for the Robert E. Howard material, there has never been any >pretense that it is "new" material by Howard. In some cases, >whole stories found in storage have been published here and there, >but in most cases what we end up with is DeCamp, Carter, or >whoever writing a story from notes or fragments found in Howard's >papers. And in all of these cases, a collaborative byline is >used. They still do the same thing, trade off a dead author's name and exploit completists of that author's works. >I also think you are making a mistake in assuming that the reason >a given story was never published in the author's lifetime was >because it was an inferior work, and that the author recognized it >as such. The phrase I use is "more often than not." That may be taking some license, since I haven't done a statistical study, but I do not claim it always is that way. >In the case of Howard, it was simply that many of his stories >couldn't find a market. Some of the stories of his that found >their way into print in the last couple of decades have been a lot >better than much of what he sold in his lifetime, and I am glad >they were discovered. I do not say it is an invariable rule. >In the case of WEB, it could well be that Wyndham couldn't find >anyone who wanted to buy it, not that he was "ashamed" of it. >Remember, Cordwainer Smith couldn't sell "Scanners Live in Vain" >for *years*, but once it finally found its way into print, it was >hailed as a classic. Madeleine L'Engle tried selling A WRINKLE IN >TIME for quite a while before one publisher finally accepted it, >and then it won the Newbery Award as Best Chidren's Novel of the >Year. Don't forget WATERSHIP DOWN, CONFEDERACY OF DUNCES, and CATCH-22. Each of them nearly did not get published. Still, none of these contradict what I was saying. >Admittedly, there are times when I think it gets a little out of >hand, and often a "collaborator" doesn't do justice to the >original author's material. On the other hand, many of these >"resurrections" are for reasons of literary historical interest, >such as, say, T. H. White's THE BOOK OF MERLIN. I can sympathize >with the idea that an author may not have wanted some of his work >to see the light of day, but I can also sympathize with his fans' >interest in seeing more work from that author. Are their "rights" >any less important than his? Sure they are. Writing is a struggle and not all exercises work out. An author has a write to privacy on what he considers his mistakes, even if his fans would love to see it. I am no Ayn Rand fan, but her point in FOUNTAINHEAD is well taken. A creator has the right to complete ownership of his creation. [There are special cases where a creation is already sold before it comes about... For example, I have sold away the right to my software creation when I came to work for AT&T, but it was my right to do so.] The right may not be enforceable for a dead author, but it should be. >I don't mean to come down so hard, and I could well be reading >things into your comments that you didn't intend. But I felt the >need to debate your comments. Feel free. I don't agree with your arguments, as obvious from the above, but the discussion was worth having. In any case, I suspect that John Beynon Harris would have probably wanted WEB to come out under his real name. It is closer to the quality of those books that did. Only the few books he wrote that were especially good seem to have been published under the pseudonym John Wyndham and it is unlikely he would have wanted WEB associated with books as good as WHEN THE KRAKEN WAKES (OUT OF THE DEEPS), MIDWICH CUCKOOS (VILLAGE OF THE DAMNED), THE CHRYSALIDS (REBIRTH), and especially DAY (REVOLT) OF THE TRIFFIDS (I wonder what American publishers had against his original titles?) (Evelyn C. Leeper for) Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!lznv!mrl ------------------------------ Date: 14 Sep 84 10:33:34-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!davis @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: An Obscure Larry Niven Lightbulb Joke >From: sam@apl-uw.UUCP (Sam Broda) >Newsgroups: net.jokes,net.sf-lovers >Subject: An Obscure Larry Niven Lightbulb Joke > Q. How many Leptors does it take to change a lightbulb? > A. Four, but only if they exist in a right-handed coordinate system. > ---Sam the grinch All right, we thought that we had read virtually all of Larry Niven's works. Please send a reference for this. Jim Davis (hplabs!davis) Paul Gootherts (hplabs!hpclla!pdg) Jim Davis (James W Davis) {any_of_the_biggies} !hplabs!davis davis%hp-labs@csnet-relay ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 84 13:18:23-PDT (Sun) From: hplabs!tektronix!uw-beaver!uw-june!apl-uw!sam @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: An Obscure Larry Niven Lightbulb Joke Here is the original joke: Q. How many Leptors does it take to change a lightbulb? A. Four, but only if they exist in a right-handed coordinate system. Due to popular demand, I will cite my reference for this joke: As far as I know, no one (including Larry Niven) has ever written about Leptors. This joke is a non-joke, and belongs in /dev/soap/radio. The subject header stated "An Obscure Larry Niven Lightbulb Joke", and I think that was an adequate description---the joke is a little bit "obscure". |-) ---Sam the grinch Today's Uni* Proverb: "Control-C killed the cat." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Sep 84 19:18:29 PDT From: ewok%ucbingres@Berkeley (Lisa Rodgin) Subject: Buckaroo Banzai I heard on the radio that KFOG (San Francisco station) is hosting a sneak preview of the movie on September 27. This implies that it will be coming out in theatres soon, yes? -ewok ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 24 Sep 1984 09:04:05-PDT From: sharp%farmer.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Don Sharp, MKO1-1/B7 DTN From: 264-6068) Subject: Re: Buckaroo Banzai in Boston may have been playing for a month on the west coast, but it's just now getting to Boston. This weekend (Sept 22&23) for the first time I started hearing plugs for the sneak preview of Buckaroo Banzai on Thursday Sept 27. (Heard on WBCN, FM 104.1 Boston) Don. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Sep 84 7:28:05-PDT (Wed) From: hplabs!hao!noao!aquila!sharp @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: HHGTTG >............. This is a fairly successful adaption of the first 6 >radio episodes, which in turn roughly correspond to the first book >and selected chapters of the second book in random order. Please ! The radio programme (since it IS English) came first, and the first two books were loosely adapted from that. The third book is a complete departure. The television version is to my mind (and I heard the original in England, the very first time it was broadcast) rather inferior. In particular, the visualisation of Marvin is poor, the character of Trillian was changed almost beyond recognition, and they did a very poor piece of "second head" special effects for Zaphod. Oddly enough, the stage adaptation seemed to work better, even though they used two people in one costume to get the two heads ! Nigel Sharp [noao!sharp National Optical Astronomy Observatories] ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 28-Sep SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #178 Date: 28 Sep 84 1051-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #178 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 28 Sep 84 1051-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #178 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 28 Sep 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 178 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Brown & Niven (4 msgs) & Saberhagen & Story Request (2 msgs) & Dragons & Repeating Days, Television - Star Trek (3 msgs) Miscellaneous - SF License Plates ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 Sep 84 16:55:48 PDT (Thu) Subject: Bearing an Hourglass (Book Two of the Incarnations of Subject: Immortality) From: Marshall Rose The second of the series focuses on Chronos, the incarnation who controls time. Time is around to ensure that "cause and effect" works. To do this, Chronos, like Merlin, lives his life backwards, so it's "effect and cause" to him. Hence, the person who assumes the office of time leaves office when he's born which is before (after) he took the office later (earlier) in life. Needless to say, this gives Chronos a lot of advantages towards the end (beginning) of his term. Unfortunately, Chronos is most vulnerable that the beginning (end) of this term, when he knows virtually nothing and all the other incarnations know everything that already happened. Needless to say, the Father of Lies, takes subtle advantage of this several times to win his dominion over creation. The book is a *lot* of fun. Anthony spends a lot of time discussing the paradoxes that can happen when Time (and others Time designates) move about in time (with his hourglass, Time can do all kinds of nifty temporal hocus-pocus). There's also a lot of humorous shenanigan's that Chronos gets himself into when learning about the hourglass. A few scenes were so funny I had to put the book down until I could stop giggling. I have one complaint about the book and one about the series: for the book, some of the constraints placed on the use of the hourglass seem to be artificial (i.e., inserted only to prevent the protagonist from easily working things out). Perhaps not. for the series: you'd think that the incarnations would have a manual telling them all about their new powers and so on. It'd save a lot of times and mistakes (and make the Father of Lies' job a lot harder). /mtr ------------------------------ Date: Sat 22 Sep 84 02:39:54-PDT From: Bruce Subject: Night of the Jabberwock mini-review (non-spoiler) /Night of the Jabberwock/ (****) by Fredric Brown, Copyright 1950 - recently reprinted by William Morrow and Co as a Quill Mysterious Classic - also reprinted in a Black Box omnibus with /The Screaming Mimi/ (****), /Knock Three-One-Two/ (**1/2) and /The Fabulous Clipjoint/ (***) /Night of the Jabberwock/ is /not/ one of Brown's science fiction stories. It is, however, probably one of the most engaging and fascinating mystery stories you will ever read. The protagonist of the novel is Doc Stoeger who is a Lewis Carroll scholar/ fan/enthusiast. The plot of the novel revolves around elements from the two Alice books and as a Carroll enthusiast myself, I found it very enjoyable. The mystery is bizarre, but Brown is very fair in the telling. I was able to figure things out just as Doc Stoeger figured them out himself, but not much sooner. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Sep 1984 10:21:40-EDT From: rachiele@NADC Subject: re: the integral trees The trees DO rotate end to end. This is also what causes the "wind" effect. I'm not sure about the reference to Voy though. Jim ------------------------------ Date: 25 Sep 84 08:30:05 PDT (Tue) To: Dewing.PA@xerox Subject: Re: : Gravity on a Integral Tree From: Martin D. Katz In Larry Nivens book 'The Integral Tree' I don't understand the 'gravity'. In the tree tufts there is 'gravity' and in the mid-trunk area there is zero g. How is this possible. The 'gravity' you speak of is not gravitational attraction from the tree, but rather a tidal effect caused by gravitational attraction from Voy (the star the trees orbit). The tree is in an orbit which is approximately that of its center of mass. The end of the tree closest to Voy is under a higher gravitational pull, but the tree doesn't move toward Voy because the opposite end has a balancing decrease in gravitational pull. The people on the close end feel this higher pull relative to the average pull on the tree, and thus have a net gravitational acceleration (which they feel as weight) relative to the tree. If they let go, they fall toward Voy (thus, Voy is under their feet). On the far end, the attraction of the people is less than the average for the tree, so people tend to fall out away from the tree, and Voy is in the sky for them. The effect is also what keeps the ends of the tree pointing directly toward (away from) Voy. The same effects are at work between the Earth and Moon. The Moon always keeps the same face toward the Earth because of tidal effects. In addition, the tendency of tidal effects to push objects away from the center of gravity of the moving object (e.g. the Earth) is what causes high tides when the Moon is above and directly below (mere direct gravitational attraction on the water would cause high tides to be only every 24 hours, not every 12 hours). Hope this long winded note explained more than it bored. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 84 08:12:00 EDT From: "Cyril N. Alberga" From: Subject: Niven, Gravity in Integral Trees: Not having read the book, this is an informed guess. Remember "Neutron Star"? I believe the answer to the Gravity problem must be tidal forces. The "trees" are in orbit, but they are not point masses, thus only their centers of mass are in true free-fall, any part nearer the primary will experience an inward gravitational pull, while any part further from it will experience "centrifical" force, an apparent negative pull (relative to the primary). All of which has interesting consequences, I wish the book would appear in paperback soon. Cyril ------------------------------ From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Date: 27 Sep 84 8:31:51 EDT Subject: Integral Tree "gravity" The "gravity" present at the tufts of the integral trees is an inertial effect, not a force at all in the sense that gravity is a force. The trees orbit Voy, and the inner end of the tree would (if it were free) orbit Voy more quickly than the outer end. The whole tree (being a single object) settles into a compromise orbit with the midpoint of the tree in freefall orbit and the two tufts "straining" to break free so that the inner tuft could orbit more quickly and the outer tuft more slowly. The people living at the tufts experience "gravity" because the tufts are preventing them from orbiting freely. If you "fall off" one of the tufts, you immediately go into a proper freefall orbit and move rapidly away from the tuft. It's a bizarre, beautiful concept that was utterly wasted on the total banality of the story, which was a travelog with some shootemup here and there to keep things interesting. This could have been another Ringworld, but I suspect NIven wasn't quite sure what to do with his creation once he had worked out all the math. It needed a high tech civilization and some aliens. Niven doesn't do well with primitives, and his human characters are usually the weakest. Sidenote: The tidal forces of the Voy system are the same as the tidal forces which bedeviled our buddy Beowulf Shaeffer when he spun around the Neutron Star, and the tidal forces from the ball of neutronium which tipped off Louis Wu that it was NOT a Slaver stasis box in "There is a Tide." Niven is fascinated by tides. One wonders how much more he can do with them... --Jeff Duntemann duntemann.wbst@xerox ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Sep 84 22:18:14 PDT From: kalash%ucbingres@Berkeley (Joe Kalash) Subject: Second Book of Swords > I spoke with somebody at a local B.Dalton Booksellers recently and > got the following info (some of it unconfirmed) about the Book(s) > of Swords. The publisher pulled the Second Book before many (any?) > copies of the initial printing were ever distributed. Well, I got my copy of it from my usual pusher of SF, so there would seem to have been at least SOME distribution of the book. The book does really exist, and is about the same level of the other two (i.e. reasonably fun read, but nothing really earth shattering). It is amusing 'tho that these books are (very distant) sequels to the "Empire of the East" books, which I liked more. Joe Kalash kalash@berkeley ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 84 10:14 CDT From: John_Mellby Subject: Title request - Bullard/Malcom Jameson? I'm looking for a book I read in 1967. It is by Malcom Jameson (?). It s a book of short stories about a character called Bullard. One of the stories has been frequently reprinted called "Bullard Reflects". This is classic space opera where Bullard is the captain of a space ship in the Terran "Space Patrol". Does anyone know the name of the book, or know where I can find it? ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 27 September 1984 22:20:04 EDT From: Peter.Monta@cmu-cs-g.arpa Subject: Do you recognize this story? I'm sure this mailing list gets a lot of this, but I'd really appreciate a pointer to a short story with the following rough plot: A young alien boy lives on Earth, and he is unaware of his origins. Apparently he has a sense of ``winding number'', in that if he were to walk around the block, he would feel a desire to turn once in the opposite direction, to regain his equilibrium. Naturally, he attempts to suppress this strange behavior, and as he gets older he is able to tolerate larger winding numbers---at the end of the day he stands on his bed turning and doing backflips. The purpose of the sense is to orient him with respect to his home, which is a distant star. This summary may be considerably distorted, since it is second- or third-hand. Thanks much, Peter.Monta@cmu-cs-g.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Fri 28 Sep 84 08:43:29-EDT From: Larry Seiler Subject: Dragon NON-fiction [Judi the dragon lady asked for stories on dragons a few issues back. My mailer barfed on her return address, so I'm sending to the whole list.] There is a book called "The Flight of Dragons", whose author explains how it is possible that a creature that we would recognize as a dragon really did exist. The creature he describes is not magical, but does fly, is physically large (although not heavy - riddle me that), breathes fire, and would almost certainly not leave a fossil record, so there is little point looking for it in rocks. None of what the author writes can be proved (as the author admits), but he makes a fascinating case, tying much of traditional dragon lore into a coherent (and real-world possible) whole. I'll tell more if you find it interesting... but maybe you don't go hunting real dragons. Enjoy, Larry Seiler Seiler@MIT-XX.arpa PS - "Roadmarks" by Zelazny has dragons in it, in a sort-of minor way (?). ------------------------------ Date: Sat 22 Sep 84 02:39:54-PDT From: Bruce Subject: Night of the Jabberwock mini-review (non-spoiler) Chris Beach's mention of the story about repeating the same day over and over again for a thousand years reminded me of another story which I would like to recommend, but I can't quite place it. The title is something like "Yesterday was Tuesday". The story is about a person who goes to sleep Tuesday and when he wakes up the next day he has this funny feeling that it's not Wednesday. It turns out that he somehow woke up "back stage" while "they" were setting up Wednesday. It's a good story which I would recommend, except I don't know the right reference. ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 21 Sep 1984 14:09:38-PDT From: vickrey%coors.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: Re: Asimov/Trekkie fans >1) Why couldn't Scotty blow up the rocket ? Scotty couldn't blow up the rocket because that would be an observed interference. >2) How did the Enterprise travel thru time ? The Enterprise accidentally returned to the year 1970 or thereabouts by passing too close to a neutron star and discovering a slingshot effect that covered time as well as distance (Tomorrow is Yesterday). The Enterprise also discovered a way to travel through time when escaping a decaying orbit about a disintegrating planet (cold-start of the warp drive by an induced implosion in The Naked Time). >3) Why did Kirk + Spock not get beamed directly to Gary's apartment >the first time ? Kirk & Spock couldn't beam into Gary Seven's apartment because he erased the coordinate settings. The best they could do was beam a party down within a thousand meters, and triangulate. >4) Why did they Kirk only know about the history of the rocket and >Gary Seven at the end of the show ? Kirk only SAID something about the history of the rocket and Gary Seven at the end of the show. He could have known it all along, and just been playing out his role in history. By this time the Enterprise personnel knew that messing around with your own history could be a short trip to oblivion (Tomorrow is Yesterday, The City on the Edge of Forever). Actually, this is a good answer to 1) too. Scotty couldn't blow up the rocket because he didn't blow up the rocket. >5) The cat/human was definitely not in the credits. Isis didn't have any speaking lines (in her human form). Extras don't get credits. I never made the Foundation/encyclopedia connection before. I like it. This is one of my favorite episodes too. It was intended to be a pilot for a spinoff series, but it didn't sell. Susan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Sep 1984 21:26 EDT From: RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: ihnp4!pegasus!naiman@UCB-VAX.ARPA Subject: Asimov/Trekkie fans, (myself included) -- an interesting Date: Monday, 10 September 1984 22:33-EDT From: ihnp4!pegasus!naiman at Ucb-Vax.arpa To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC Re: Asimov/Trekkie fans, (myself included) -- an interesting corolation 4) Why did they Kirk only know about the history of the rocket and Gary Seven at the end of the show ? 1) Apropos rocket, our gang only had one piece of data regarding the causality of time travel, from the previous mis-adventure. Therefore, they probably didn't bother checking, since their very presence might have changed history (note: this is an official coverup of an obvious writer slip-up) 2) The tag line "Mr Seven and Miss whatis lived happily ever after" (paraphrase) which Spock says at the end is a tie-in for a never-implemented spin-off NBC wanted to do. Shame. James ------------------------------ Date: Mon 24 Sep 84 17:27:02-EDT From: Rob Austein Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #167 Re: James R. Kirk: the version I always heard was that he was James R. in "Where No Man...", then Rodenberry decided that "T." sounded better (I don't know when they came up with Tyberus as a middle name). -- Rob ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 25 Sep 1984 07:27:30-PDT From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (From the terminal of Brendan E. From: Boelke) Subject: License Plates I'm sorry I'm sending this to the net, but I can't figure out how to send directly to those strange ( :-) ) addresses. I believe I first saw this in SFL but, there is always the infamous GROK 42. /BEB ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 1-Oct SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #179 Date: 1 Oct 84 1152-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #179 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 1 Oct 84 1152-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #179 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 1 Oct 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 179 Today's Topics: Books - Bradbury & Brust & Fried (2 msgs) & Jameson & Niven (3 msgs) & Pynchon & Rogers & Wyndham, Films - Stainless Steel Rat (2 msgs) & Buckaroo Banzai ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 28 Sep 84 10:31:43-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!markb @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Short Story Title Request (help!) The short story about the man in the cocoon is called "Chrysalis" By Ray Bradbury and can be found in one of "S is for Space" or "R is for Rocket", I don't remember which. Mark Biggar {allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb ------------------------------ Date: Tue 25 Sep 84 10:19:07-EDT From: Wang Zeep Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #176 If people are interested in Steven Brust, they may want to get a copy of his latest, _To Reign in Hell_, which may be one of the more original treatments of the downfall of Lucifer and the Angels since _Paradise Lost_. It's available for $17 from Steeldragon Press in Minnesota, in a signed, limited acid-free hardcover with illos. This book is a great deal, both for its writing (which may be a bit ambitious, but worth reading) and for the aforementioned physical aspects. Steeldragon also has spiffy editions planned for Larry Niven and others. wz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Oct 84 10:19:53 EDT From: Daniel Dern Subject: BOOK ABOUT A BOY WHO SPINS AROUND I'll guess THE REVOLVING BOY, by Gertrude Fried (or something like that last name). The title sure sounds right. I haven't seen my copy in years, but I'm sure it's a staple in the used areas. And a very nice book it is, BTW. Daniel Dern "Machina Sapiens Pro Avia" ddern@bbn.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 1 Oct 1984 06:51:39-PDT From: kenah%super.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Andrew Kenah) Subject: This version is grammatically correct... In answer to the question about the story of the alien boy who needed to do backflips, etc. I'm afraid I've forgotten the author's name, but she expanded the story into novel length, entitled "The Revolving Boy". andrew ------------------------------ Date: 29 Sep 84 14:18:49-PDT (Sat) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!rick @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Title request - Bullard/Malcom Jameson? The title is _Bullard_of_the_Space_Patrol_, and the author is indeed Malcolm Jameson. It is a whiz-bang-shoot-em-up classic of space opera -- makes the Lensman books look 2nd rate (deflectors up Captain! Doc Smith Fan Flame coming in). I wouldn't mind owning this one myself. From memory, other stories in it include Inspection -- Bullard as brand new officer on a crack ship, ends up saving everyone when a simulated crisis turns into the real thing. (The inspection is carried out by teaming the crew with their counterparts from a rival ship as referees; extensive use of simulated casualties smoke bombs let off in the ship, etc. The story refers to this doubling of crews as being a US Navy, WW II era practice. Anyone know if this was ever really done?) White Mutiny -- Bullard gets rid of an incompetent superior who takes refuge in the regulations, by outdoing him in following "the book" -- and ONLY the book. Bullard Reflects -- a real BAD pun at the end. Good story. Introduces DazzleDart, one of the more interesting zero-gee sports that writers have come up with. Blockade Runner -- Bullard manages some gee-whiz space smuggling by pulling deus-ex-techno-machina type stuff. An ok story, nothing special. The Threat (?) -- In a postwar space navy, Bullard has to send out a colleague on essentially a suicide mission, backed only by his secret orders. Bullard has by this time advanced out of combat duty into administration, which is rare for space opera type heroes (anyone ever see Kirk stay behind?) The Bureaucrat (?) -- The son of an old comrade comes to Admiral B., and asks for help in getting off of the coward's ship he's on now (a scam rigged up for the sons of rich men to avoid the draft), and into real combat. Bullard explains that his hands are tied, and that he can only follow orders. As one might expect, though, he can do a fair bit by only following orders. Ends up with a nice space battle description. I think there are a few other stories. Apart from the way Bullard ages, and moves out of the active end of the story and into the administrative end, there are other nice points. The stories were written in the 40s, and they reflect a sea-going Navy all the way. Guns are loaded by hand; aiming is done by huge wheels with azimuths and such marked on them; the space torpedoes need to have their explosives mixed and loaded just before launching. There's a pleasant old- fashioned feeling about the spaceships which makes them somehow much more realistic than the glitzy, positronic, miles of shining circuitry in the walls spaceships which are the usual thing in space opera now. I am particularly fond of any spaceship which has "speaking tubes" as a backup intercom system (watch old movies to see them in use; a few Dr. Who episodes have used them also -- The Horror of Fang Rock, and Enlightenment, among them). Rick Keir -- MicroComputer Information Center, MACC {allegra, ihnp4, seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!rick 1210 West Dayton St/U Wisconsin Madison/Mad WI 53706 "This is the sort of nonsense up with which I will not put" -- Winston Churchill ------------------------------ Date: 26 Sep 84 15:44:27-PDT (Wed) From: hplabs!oliveb!jerry @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Gravity on an Integral Tree Larry Niven wrote another story in which tidal forces were used. It was one of the "known space" series though I don't have the title handy but I think it was "Tidal Stress". It that story the main character was asked to pilot a ship in a sling-shot orbit that took it very near a neutron star. The idea was to collect scientific info during the near pass or something. The reasoning was that since the ship was in free fall there would be no gravitational attraction even at the closest approach to the star. The ship had enough power to make minor course corrections but nowhere near enough to pull out of the orbit. The previous pilots have been found crushed even though the ships hull was still entact. Needless to say the hero finds out that though the center of mass of the ship is in free fall the two ends of it are not. I will leave how he survives a mystery. Jerry Aguirre {hplabs|fortune|idi|ihnp4|ios|tolerant|allegra|tymix}!oliveb!jerry ------------------------------ Date: 28 Sep 84 13:25:42-PDT (Fri) From: decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdcc6!calmasd!gail @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Gravity on an Integral Tree _Descent of Anansi_ by Larry Niven and Steven Barnes used tides. As did Niven's stories "Neutron Star" and "There is a Tide" (not "Tidal Stress" in my copy). "Neutron Star" at least can be found in the short story collection _Neutron Star_. (Big surprise, that). Gail Bayley Hanrahan {decvax,ucbvax}!sdcsvax!calmasd!gail Calma Company, San Diego ------------------------------ Date: 30 Sep 84 15:44:11 EDT From: Don Provan@CMU-CS-A Subject: ringworld I've always disliked the Ringworld books and I'm glad some on in v9#178 finally put their finger on it for me, although he was talking about the tree book, not the ringworld books. Ringworld is just a boring travellog in a fascinating setting. I wish someone good would take Ringworld and do something interesting with it. ------------------------------ Date: 15-Aug-84 14:13 PDT From: Kirk Kelley Subject: Re: Thomas Pynchon I can imagine why Pynchon would come across " full of pretentious, self-indulgent writing ...". Pynchon gives us a literary stream of sensory input just like real life. And, O what a stream! My experience with Gravity's Rainbow was as soon as I gave up trying to connect all the details that might be necessary to a plot, and started EXPERIENCING all the detail, I got hooked. I liked GR better than V. So I have two suggestions. First, try Gravity's Rainbow. And secondly, dont try to remember the details. Just let them flow over you. Experience them. It's a trip. -- kirk ------------------------------ Date: 18 Sep 84 14:55:00-PDT (Tue) From: hplabs!hp-pcd!hpfclk!fritz @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Samurai Cat (very mild spoiler) If you're looking for a healthy dose of excessive silliness, you might want to check out *The Adventures of Samurai Cat*, by Mark E. Rogers. This oversized, illustrated book chronicles the exploits of the great feline samurai, Miaowara Tomokato, as he seeks to revenge the murder of his daimyo (lord). Tomokato is a *mean* mother (bystanders are wont to utter "What a stud!"), but is also the picture of *bushido* (samurai chivalry), and takes on everything from armies of Porks (orcs) to Fenrir Wolf, the Midgard Serpent, and Surtur the Fire-Giant with aplomb. His vengeance takes him through several adventures in strangely-familiar-sounding places: Catzad-Dum (^ over the u), where he meets up with an old greybeard with a blue light on his staff and a retinue of 8 elves, dwarves, humans, and short guys with furry feet, and battles disgusting Porks and the fearsome B'aalhop ("Give us a tip, my love") The Book of the Dunwich Cow, where he meets the Real Old God K'Chu (Cthulhu) and his sidekick Bl'syu The Pictish woods, where he and Con-Ed the Barbarian defeat the Porka Picts (th-th-th-that's all, folks!) and the evil wizard Thpageti-Thoth You get the idea. The book is full of punny names, in-jokes, and sight-gags, and is a good time for light entertainment. The illustrations are almost as hilarious as the text. Just don't expect any literary classics! Gary Fritz {ihnp4,hplabs}!hpfcla!hpfclk!fritz ------------------------------ Date: 11 Sep 84 12:19:19-PDT (Tue) From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!pegasus!hocsj!ecl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: John Wyndham's WEB WEB by John Wyndham A book review by Mark R. Leeper A peculiar practice that seems to be becoming common is when a popular (or even a not-so-popular) author dies, you stash his last novel in a vault somewhere for a decade or more, wait for the author to become legend, then publish the book. The reading public is supposed to see the book for sale and say something like "A new book by Mort D. Ceased?!? Why, he's been dead for years! I gotta have this book to complete my collection." More often than not you find out that this may not have actually been his last novel, but is an earlier work that the author--perhaps inspired by the parent in a Lovecraft story about a monstrous child--could not disown, but could not release on the world either, so hid in an attic. I guess what started that trend was Tolkien's SILMARILLION. More recently there was a new "Fuzzy" novel by H. Beam Piper. There are whole series of Doc Smith and Robert E. Howard books published after the author's death with the help of a co-author that the poor dead author never chose. But this is a slightly different but related trend. It all comes down to the fact that when an author dies his name may become more popular and he totally loses the right to say that one of his works turned out wrong and should not be published. WEB is a new novel by John Wyndham. These days if you ask me who my favorite science fiction authors are, you will probably get an evasive answer like "I don't have favorite authors, only favorite books." That's an easy out but it avoids claiming I like everything by a given author. Nonetheless, if you'd asked that question when I was in high school, you'd probably get Wyndham as one of the top three. Wyndham never published WEB, and the reasons are clear from the novel. It's not that WEB is not an enjoyable book to read, but when it comes right down to it, WEB simply failed to become a whole lot better than a nature disaster novel like any number of writers like James Herbert or Arthur Herzog write--perhaps not even that good. The plot of WEB involves an attempt to start a Utopian community on an isolated South Pacific atoll. One major problem, however, is that this particular island has been taken over by a new mutated breed of spider. They are no different than any other spiders except that they have learned to co-operate like ants and bees do. The result, reminiscient of PHASE IV, is that they have become rulers of their environment and when they are invaded they battle for dominance of the island. There is also a subplot of a native curse of the island that seems borrowed from a grade-B movie. Not that that in itself is bad. THE DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS is superficially about giant walking man-eating plants. If that isn't a B-film concept, nothing is. Wyndham can take an unpromising idea and make a good book out of it. Well, WEB isn't a *bad* book. It is well-written with a sense of wonder at the natural history of spiders. After reading WEB, I find spiders much more interesting creatures. And there are some interesting discussions of nature and the naivete' of looking at nature as benevolent or as anything but a vicious game in which humans are temporarily the best players. WEB is a book written with vision which simply failed to be sufficiently different from a hack novel. So Wyndham never published it. And Penguin Books did when Wyndham could not say no. It's okay fare overall. Completists won't have too bad a time with it. (Evelyn C. Leeper for) Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!lznv!mrl ------------------------------ Date: 17 Sep 84 18:09:53-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!oliveb!oliven!hawk @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: The Stainless Steel Rat > The biggest problem we're having is trying to find a gorgeous >actress who is also talented to play Angelica/Angela/Angel... Any >suggestions? Gee, what about Bo Derek? [Awk! back, I didn't mean it! put that flamethrower down. . . . please? ARGHhh hh h h h ! [hplabs|zehntel|fortune|ios|tolerant|allegra|tymix]!oliveb!oliven!hawk ------------------------------ Date: Tue 25 Sep 84 16:18:11-EDT From: Rob Austein Subject: Stainless Steel Rat Cast Funny, I had always thought of Harrison Ford as DiGriz, not Inskip. The best Angelina I've heard suggested so far is the female lead from "Risky Business", who's name I have forgotten. She's not perfect, but it's a very hard role to fill. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Sep 84 10:25:01 PDT (Tue) Subject: Buckaroo Banzai From: Richard Johnson I was told recently by a friend that this movie was going to be re-released around Christmas time on the east coast in hopes that it would do better then. Evidently, even though it has quite a few devoted fans (like myself), it just doesn't seem to appeal to the general public. Along other lines, I haven't been able to find a soundtrack from this movie. Has anyone seen one? Richard Johnson raj@uci (ARPA) UCI ICS Systems Manager ucbvax!ucivax!raj (UUCP) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 1-Oct SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #180 Date: 1 Oct 84 1218-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #180 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 1 Oct 84 1218-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #180 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 1 Oct 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 180 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & McKiernan & Saberhagen & Seltzer & Sucharitkul & Williamson, Films - Stainless Steel Rat (3 msgs) & Films We'd Like to See & 2010 & Battlefield Earth & Upcoming SF Movies, Television - Dr Who & Star Trek ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 Sep 84 10:34:48-PDT (Mon) From: pur-ee!ecn-ee!hsut @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Piers Anthony - MACROSCOPE I agree. Macroscope is probably the best thing Piers Anthony has ever written (what has he put out since then that's even close?) I, too, read it several years ago and can only remember the intriguing split personality sequences and the hallucinatory battle scenes near the end which compare well with Zelazny. Anthony also wrote a nice story for Harlan Ellison's "Again, Dangerous Visions" called In The Barn, which is definitely worth reading. I haven't been impressed with his recent stuff. Looks like a classic case of a promising young talent's degeneration into hackhood... Bill Hsu pur-ee!hsut ------------------------------ Date: 28 Sep 84 12:52:23 EDT From: GOLD@RU-BLUE.ARPA Subject: Inquiry on Dennis McKiernan After reading an earlier inquiry as to who Dennis McKiernan was, I too became curious. When I was unable to find any of his books, I decided to take advantage of inter-departmental mail at Bell and find out directly. I have since spoken with him and he was good enough to give me quite a bit of detail as to the background of his books. Although I still have not had the pleasure of reading the books, for those of you that find them this may be of interest: After being in a serious accident in 1977 in a motorcycle race, he spent quite a bit of time hospitalized in traction and then in a body cast. To keep his mind occupied during that time, he decided to do something that he had considered for some time but never had the chance to do, write a book. He wrote a sequel to the Lord of the Rings that told of the dwarves attempts to regain their ancient homeland. Doubleday became interested in the book and entered into negotiations with the Tolkein estate for the rights to a sequel, but after 2 years of negotiations the estate decided against authorizing a sequel. At this point Doubleday asked McKiernan to rewrite the book and remove it from the Tolkien world. He did this, Doubleday liked the book and intended to publish it, but by that point he had also begin work on the prequel and suggested to Doubleday that they wait and publish that one first. It is this second work, which develops the setting for the original story that has been published by Doubleday as a trilogy. It was intended asa single story, but was split by Doubleday due to it's length (aprox. 250,000 words). The correct order of the books is: The Darkest Tide Shadows of Doom Darkest Day THe first book, will be coming out about a year from now with the proposed title The Silver Call. It is aproximately 140,000 words so there is a chance that Doubleday will split this one into two. The author has expressed his hope that the books are not "just another Tolkein ripoff". I too hope that they succeed in this. I can certainly understand his desire once he developed a world as a setting for the first book to want to do the pre-quel for furthur depth. If any of you manage to find the books before I do I would appreciate hearing your reactions. Cynthia Gold Gold@Ru-Blue hou3c!tpsa!crg ------------------------------ Date: 23 Sep 84 9:24:04-PDT (Sun) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!ut-sally!ut-ngp!drlmain @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Books of Swords I have read both the First and Second Book of Swords by Fred Saberhagen. However, I had to borrow them from a friend who borrowed them from a friend (not exactly widely distributed). Both books were trade size and I've been unable to locate any copies in the Austin area. Admittedly, it hasn't been one of my top priorities. Hopefully with the Third Book out, we'll see a reissue of the first two. Tim Meluch a.k.a. Lohiro, Archmage of the Hidden City of Quo ------------------------------ Date: 28 Sep 84 7:25:07-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-hubie!kreidler @ From: Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Humorous SF People who enjoy puns and zany humor as well as fantasy would probably enjoy The Lizard of Oz. The description on the back cover reads: "When an elementary class sets out on a quest to save the world from disenchantment, their adventures reveal paradoxes of the human mind and ways of awakening the magic within us." Characters include: Lewis Carroll -- "I don't understand everything. I just stand under the world. There are others much lower who stand under us. There are many levels of understanding." The empty-headed pothead, who has an empty flowerpot instead of a head -- "Some of these guys will put anything in their head just to have something there; but I'm waiting till I find something worth putting in." Prince Frog, the frog who turned himself into a price to make himself lovable -- "It's so good to be loved, but then it's so comfortable being a frog. I think I'll go down to the river and croak." Miss Fortune, one of the Mother's of Fact -- "That's be the emperor's new clothes. There's a very special fiber for making it visible. Yes, moral fiber. The emperor has to supply that himself. Some of the other characters: the humdrum Humbug, beating on his humdrum, Humpty Dumpty and the little blue wallflower he fell for, Sir Real, Francis Bacon, the Redcoats, Joan of Noah's Ark, Mr. Charon, the ferryboatman, Mr. Plato, the Witch, the Physicist, King Arthur and the Knights of the Merry-Go-Round Table, Shakespeare, Daniel Boone, Mr. Marx, Crazy Horse, the Weatherman, Mr. Shermin, the fish who was a teacher before he decided he wanted to be a fish and then he knew how to make himself a fish, which not many people, even teachers, know how to do, and many others. A little radio station on Cape Cod (WOMR, Provincetown) has produced a radio play based on it (three 45 minute episodes) that they plan to broadcast soon and hope to distribute nationally over National Public Radio. There's also a children's play version available. The book has been through three printings over the last ten years, but can be found in only very few bookstores. The best way to get it is directly from the publisher: B&R Samizat Express, PO Box 161, West Roxbury, MA 02132. (617) 469-2269. The Lizard of Oz, by Richard Seltzer illustrated by Christin Couture, Paperback, 126 pp., $4.50. You could also order it from me over the net. (I happen to be the author.) Richard Seltzer Digital Equipment, Concord, MA HUBIE::KREIDLER over USENET decvax!decwrl!rhea!hubie!kreidler over ARPANET kreidler%hubie.DEC@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 1 Oct 1984 10:35:54-EDT From: carol at mit-cipg at mit-mc Hasn't anyone else answered Chris Beach's story request yet? The story is called, "Absent Thee From Felicity Awhile..." by Somtow Sucharitkul. It's in The 1982 Annual World's Best SF, ed. by Donald Wollheim), and is copyrighted by Davis Publications, 1981, which means it was in either IASFM or Amazing, I think. Chris has the plot slightly wrong: the aliens are using the Earth's culture as a kind of Junior High School Social Studies project for its children. Also, the Earth people can communicate to the aliens by touching conveniently placed poles, and have the hours every morning between 6 AM and 8 AM free to do as they please (since the protagonist wakes up at 11AM on the day in question, it takes him awhile to discover this). Also, the girl that dies in a train wreck isn't an old girlfriend, she's someone he meets during a 'free time' exploration. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Sep 84 10:47:30-PDT (Tue) From: ihnp4!drutx!houxe!hogpc!pegasus!hocsj!ecl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Jack Williamson's DARKER THAN YOU THINK DARKER THAN YOU THINK by Jack Williamson A book review by Mark R. Leeper All the bad news about this book (in the Blue Jay Books edition) concerns the cover: it is out of keeping with the style of the rest of the book, it cannot be carried around in polite society (or even at work), it curls, and it bears the price of $8.95 for a novel that has been around 36 years and is not particularly rare. The good news is that once you get past the cover, the book is a sheer joy. David Klein did all the art and his interior illustrations deserve awards. The book is profusely illustrated with marvelous scratchpad art that captures the feel of the Forties and the dark menace of the novel. Williamson is best known for SF and when you come right down to it, this is a decent SF novel with engaging "what-if" ideas. But over that is layered a horror-fantasy in the best traditions of A. E. Merritt. For years I've enjoyed attempts to explain traditional supernatural creatures in scientific terms. This is one of the three stories I've recommended (along with Matheson's I AM LEGEND and Kneale's QUATERMASS AND THE PIT). I particularly recommend it in this edition. You can't tell a book by it's cover. (Evelyn C. Leeper for) Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!lznv!mrl ------------------------------ Date: 22 Sep 84 21:08:20-PDT (Sat) From: decvax!cca!ima!ism780!geoff @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Re: The Stainless Steel Rat My vote is Sigourney Weaver for Angelica... Any ideas for James and Bolivar? (nukes to anyone who suggests the Dukes of Hazard) ------------------------------ Date: Sun 30 Sep 84 22:13:40-EDT From: Peter G. Trei Subject: Who should play Angelina? I pass this on from an off-net friend.... 30-Sep-84 19:05:43-EDT,456;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from CUTC20 by CU20B with DECnet; 30 Sep 84 19:05:39 EDT Date: Sun 30 Sep 84 19:05:29-EDT From: Daniel Burstein Subject: the actress question... To: trei@CU20B in sf-lovers the question was raised as to which actress should play angelina in "the stainless steel rat". I believe it should be Diana Rigg, based on her portrayal of Mrs. Peel in the Avengers. danny ------------------------------ Date: 27 Sep 84 8:23:06-PDT (Thu) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!trwrb!cepu!scw @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: The Stainless Steel Rat I vote for Fay Dunaway as Angelina. She also (as in Jane Seymour) has beauty, brains, and can be quite evil (cf. \The {Three,Four} Musketeers/), in addition she's a VERY good actress. Stephen C. Woods (VA Wadsworth Med Ctr./UCLA Dept. of Neurology) uucp: { {ihnp4, uiucdcs}!bradley, hao, trwrb, sdcrdcf}!cepu!scw ARPA: cepu!scw@ucla-cs location: N 34 3' 9.1" W 118 27' 4.3" ------------------------------ Date: 21 Sep 84 13:10:58-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!oliveb!olivee!gnome @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Adventures in the 8th dimension. How about basing a film around an aging actor, a chimp and and a nuclear war -- Buckari Bonzo! Gary (hplabs,etc..)oliveb!olivee!gnome Why walk when you can stagger! ------------------------------ Date: 13-Aug-84 02:30 PDT From: William Daul - Augmentation Systems Div. - McDnD From: Subject: Preview For 2010 I just caught the preview tonight. There wasn't a whole lot to it but...I felt like it may capture some of the feeling of 2001. HAL and Discovery never looked better. I can "get into" anything I see in the movies, and I am looking forward to 2010 (good or bad)! --Bi<< ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Sep 84 11:10:07 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: "Battlefield Earth" becomes a film (?) Well, maybe it becomes two films. An independent production company that I'd never heard of before announced that it intends to make L. Ron Hubbard's sf whale-on-the-beach into two films. They're running a contest to find a logo for the productions. I'd offer to bet anyone that the production company is a Scientology offshoot, but I don't think there's anyone out there stupid enough to lose money that way. This also sounds to me like of one of those productions that never come off, and it won't bother me one bit if I'm right. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ Date: 23 Sep 84 13:30:55-PDT (Sun) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!trwrb!cepu!ucla-cs!reiher @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Release dates of upcoming SF and fantasy movies "Amadeus" probably doesn't belong in a list of sf/fantasy movies, and "Starman" definitely does. "Amadeus" does contain speculation beyond what is known about Mozart's death, but nothing that would qualify as fantasy. "Starman" is a real sf picture aboutt a stranded alien, played by Jeff Bridges. I may be misremembering this, but I think Nancy Allen, Brian dePalma's wife, is the female lead, a woman who is more or less kidnapped to help the alien make a rendezvous which is far away. I should remember the director's name, but don't. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ Date: 28 Sep 1984 23:17 EDT (Fri) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" Subject: Doctor Who For those who are interested in such things, there will be a Dr. Who convention at Copley Sq (I don't remember the specific hotel) next Sat & Sun (Oct 8-9). If anyone is interested, I do have phone number somewhere that I could send. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Sep 84 9:54:43-PDT (Thu) From: decvax!dartvax!merchant @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Asimov/Trekkie fans, (myself included) -- an interesting Subject: corolation Your answers: 1) Scotty cannot blow up the rocket because it would change history. Kirk, we discover, knows that the rocket is supposed to malfunction. If it goes up and Scotty phasers it, it disappears in a flash of special effects and governments start asking nosy questions. By having it malfunction "the way it is supposed to", they don't connect the Enterprise to it. (By the way, I think this was mentioned in the episode.) 2) Possibly the same way they did it for "Tomorrow is Yesteday". (ie, hit a "Black star", etc...) 3 and 4 supposedly didn't need answers, so... 5) The reason the person didn't get any credit was that she didn't have any lines. She just sat there and looked sexy for a quick shot or two. Hollywood is not in the habit of giving screen credit for "Extras", no matter how good looking they are. Which brings up my question: In "Tomorrow is Yesterday" they spotted the Enterprise on radar because it was flying low. Supposedly, "Assignment: Earth" was supposed to take place in the early 70s (ie, near future) where they would have improved space tracking facilities. Why didn't anyone notice the lumbering starship up among the heavens? "What was that flash, Orville?" Peter Merchant ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 5-Oct SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #181 Date: 5 Oct 84 1249-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #181 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Oct 84 1249-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #181 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 5 Oct 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 181 Today's Topics: Books - Anderson (2 msgs) & Bradbury & Elgin & Friedberg (3 msgs) & Ryan & Takei, Films - Buckaroo Banzai (2 msgs) & Asimov at the Movies & Starman & The Twilight Zone, Television - Star Trek (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 25 Sep 84 16:15:04-PDT (Tue) From: decvax!mcnc!akgua!edb @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Story Author and Anthology Request Someone mentioned a book where the hero survives by accident and his companions fall perpetually into the event horizon of a ?giant star?. I once read a short story with a similar plot and would like to know which anthology. Please respond by mail and I will post the answer. A survey ship is approaching a black hole accompanied by a telepathic girl and (outside the ship) an energy being they all refer to as "Lucifer". Lucifer and the girl (Evangeline?) 'talk' a lot; he is almost her only companion. As they approach the black hole, Lucifer darts over to investigate and is trapped by the gravitational pull. The story jumps to some years later and to a Lunar convent where the girl is now a novice?. Every year she says a prayer for Lucifer... whom she can still hear falling forever into Hell. The name of the story is I believe *Kyrie*; I do not remember the author. Please help! All leads cheerfully accepted. Emily Brooks {...ihnp4!}akgua!edb ------------------------------ Date: 11 Oct 84 12:17:00-EDT (Thu) From: hplabs!hp-pcd!mfc @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Story Author and Anthology Request I'd have answered this sooner, but I've been away from this net topic for a few days. The author of "Kyrie" was Poul Anderson, I believe. My copy of that short story is in "The World's Best SF of 1968", or somewhere in that time frame. I will confirm both the author and the book tomorrow (Thurs., 10/4/84). Regards, Mark Cook HP-PCD Corvallis, OR ...!hplabs!hp-pcd!mfc ------------------------------ Date: 13 Oct 84 14:22:00-EDT (Sat) From: hplabs!hp-pcd!hpfclp!fritz @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Short Story Title Request (help!) > /***** hpfclp:net.sf-lovers / dartvax!markv / 3:01 pm Sep 26, > 1984*/ > I remember reading this short story about ten or so years ago. > I cannot now for the life of me figure out either the story's > title or author. The annoying thing is, I am almost sure that the > story is contained somewhere in one of the many anthologies I own. > So I'm hoping that one of you netlanders out there can help me > out. The plot went basically like this: (plot summary follows) Wasn't this "I Sing the Body Electric" by Ray Bradbury? Gary Fritz {ihnp4,hplabs}!hpfcla!fritz ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Oct 84 07:50:45 EDT From: "Cyril N. Alberga" From: Subject: Elgin, "missing" novel; SF data-base query The final word on the putative ninth novel by S. H. Elgin (credited to her in the blurb printed in Native Tongue. In correspondence with Ms. Elgin I have been told that this is an editorial error, the book The Communipath Worlds was counted as a separate work, when in fact it is a reprinting of three early novels. On to other matters. I am attempting to design a data-base structure to allow me to index my SF collection. I am neither a data base guru, nor a librarian. I have a (very) rough outline, still under revision. If anyone has done this already, or is interested (or willing) to comment on my structure, I would like to hear from them. I fully expect to be beaten up by experts. Thank you, in advance, Cyril N. Alberga ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 1 Oct 1984 10:43:25-PDT From: sharp%farmer.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Don Sharp, MKO1-1/B7 DTN From: 264-6068) Subject: Re: Do you recognize this story? >From: Peter.Monta@cmu-cs-g.arpa >A young alien boy lives on Earth, and he is unaware of his origins. >Apparently he has a sense of ``winding number'', in that if he were >to walk around the block, he would feel a desire to turn once in >the opposite direction, to regain his equilibrium. Naturally, he >attempts to suppress this strange behavior, and as he gets older he >is able to tolerate larger winding numbers---at the end of the day >he stands on his bed turning and doing backflips. The purpose of >the sense is to orient him with respect to his home, which is a >distant star. I recognize this enough to supply some more detail, but I can't place it. The story's protagonist was not an alien, but a human with the distinction of being the first human born in freefall, in orbit. He might also have spent some pre-natal time in freefall. He grew up with this infallible inertial sense of direction, and nobody could figure out how come. Then later in his life he suddenly experienced a debilitating case of chronic vertigo. His directional sense suddenly deserted him. Since they didn't know where it came from in the first place doctors had no explanation where it went. But by diligent research he found his own answer: a radio signal from space had suddenly turned off. It was a galactic carrier signal, that our hero had sensed with some hitherto dormant organ, and the vertigo he experienced heralded a message from the Benevolent Space Brothers. -Don. ------------------------------ Date: 1 Oct 84 14:28:24 EDT From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst Subject: reply to story request about "winding numbers" Peter.Menta must be thinking of Gertrude Friedberg's _The_Revolving_Boy_, recently reprinted after too long a time out of print. The boy isn't alien; he's human, but was born in zero gravity. No spoilers; it's a wonderful book. A friend of mine had been buying up every used copy he could find of the original printing, thinking it an unrecognized classic and hoping to corner the market. Of course, now that it's been reprinted... Chris ------------------------------ Date: 1 Oct 84 15:50:49-PDT (Mon) From: wildbill @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Do you recognize this story? > I'm sure this mailing list gets a lot of this, but I'd really > appreciate a pointer to a short story with the following rough > plot: > > A young alien boy lives on Earth, and he is unaware of his > origins. Apparently he has a sense of ``winding number'', in that > if he were to walk around the block, he would feel a desire to > turn once in the opposite direction, to regain his equilibrium. > Naturally, he attempts to suppress this strange behavior, and as > he gets older he is able to tolerate larger winding numbers---at > the end of the day he stands on his bed turning and doing > backflips. The purpose of the sense is to orient him with respect > to his home, which is a distant star. > > This summary may be considerably distorted, since it is second- or > third-hand. > > Thanks much, > Peter.Monta@cmu-cs-g.arpa It's not a short story, it's a novel. The title is \\The Revolving Boy//. I believe the author is female, but I don't recall the name. It's been a while since I read it. The boy is not an alien. What he is is the first human born in space, the result of some unauthorized screwing around during a space mission crewed by a married couple. Bill Laubenheimer UC-Berkeley Computer Science ...Killjoy went that-a-way---> ucbvax!wildbill ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 2 Oct 1984 09:38:55-PDT From: mccoy%orc.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Gary McCoy 247-2047) Subject: Adolescence Of P-1 (SPOILER) THE FOLLOWING DISCUSSES THE ENDING OF THE BOOK THE ADOLESCENCE OF P-1. *****************SPOLIER WARNING**************** The ending is the book The Adolescence of P-1 by Thomas J. Ryan has intrigued me for some time. The first time through the book, I was unable to translate the last two words, however, my wife has given me what I believe to be the answer. I will refresh your memory. (Are you still reading this if you haven't read the book?) Linda has just typed the letters 'p1' on Gregory's old computer console at the university he attended. As she is leaving, the following response is typed: OOLCAY ITAY My wife tells me this is 'pig Latin' (funny name for an encoding method). Removing the AY's and taking the C and moving it to the beginning of the first word we have: COOL IT This would seen to be an appropriate ending to the book, meaning that p-1 has survived, and is hiding out (or what ever a computer program does) as Gregory had once instructed. My question is this, am I the only person who had trouble translating the ending of the book. Pig Latin? I cannot remember any other reference to this in the book. Gary McCoy ------------------------------ Date: Tue 2 Oct 84 03:26:07-PDT From: Bob Larson Subject: Mirror friend, Mirror Foe / George Takei & Robert Asprin This is an enjoyable book about an oriental sword master and his robot sidekick. A quick, fun read without as many puns as some of Asprin's other books. (Myth adventures) I first read this book a few years ago and eventually picked up a copy for myself used. My question: Has George Takei written any other books? Mirror Friend, Mirror Foe George Takei & Robert Asprin Playboy press December 1979 Isbn: 0-872-16581-7 [1979 price: $1.95] (Yes, Trekies, it is the same George Takei.) Bob Larson ------------------------------ Date: 20 Sep 84 16:23:18-EDT (Thu) From: Stabron%xls-plexus01.darcom@darcom-hq.arpa Subject: Buckaroo Banzai I saw a preview for Buckaroo Banzai in the Washington, D. C. area this weekend. I guess it's working its way in this direction! Judi ------------------------------ Date: Wed 3 Oct 84 02:16:33-CDT From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA Subject: Buckaroo Banzai Dunno what's happening elsewhere, but BUCKAROO BANZAI opened here in Austin last week. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Sep 84 14:17:00-PDT (Sun) From: hplabs!hp-pcd!john @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Asimov at the movies According to the Oct issue of Starlog, Peter (Final Countdown) Douglas is working on a adapation of Asimovs "End of Eternity". He is also working on a remake of "The day the Earth stood still". John Eaton !hplabs!hp-pcd!john ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Oct 84 15:40 MST From: "James J. Lippard" Subject: Starman Reply-to: Lippard@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA The director is John Carpenter. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Sep 84 21:14:51-PDT (Sun) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!ut-sally!ut-ngp!ables @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Twilight Zone For those of you who have SHOWTIME, they're showing the TZ movie this month, and this Thursday (Oct. 4) they're giving us a treat before the movie runs at 7pm (Central time). At 6:30, they're showing "Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge" as a prologue to the film. This is one of those 4 or 5 shows that are not in syndication. I have also heard from a friend that WGN (Chicago) is going to pull out those un-syndicated shows and show them. I haven't heard anything about this, though, I haven't been watching TZ on WGN lately. I assume they'll have ads to this effect around and during TZ when they are showing it. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Sep 84 18:45:25-PDT (Tue) From: hplabs!oliveb!jerry @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Tomorrow is Yesterday, etc. Regarding the episode where the Enterprise travels back in time and accidentally intercepts Gary 7. If more people would LISTEN to those captain's log entries at the beginning of the show! The captain starts out by saying: Using the sling-shot principle the Enterprise has traveled back in time to observe history .... and is currently in EXTENDED orbit using DEFLECTORS to avoid detection. Remember all that junk from Scotty about there "still being time to descend low enough to blast the missile". Knowing what we do about the range of the Enterprise's phasers do you think she was only a few thousand miles up! As to detection: If we, using 20th century technology, can develop the stealth bomber don't you think the Enterprise could avoid detection by some "primitive radar". I thought this show was interesting in that it is one of the few that uses the discoveries made in previous shows. I mean how about the one where Spock's brain is stolen and used as a environmental control computer. In another show we see the previous captain of the Enterprise paralyzed. His brain in working order, but unable to speak or move. If the technology existed to interface to Spock's disembodied brain, why not the other man's. I am sure all of us can think of discoveries on one show that could have solved the problems in the next. Jerry Aguirre {hplabs|fortune|idi|ihnp4|ios|tolerant|allegra|tymix}!oliveb!jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Oct 84 12:31:34 edt From: Bruce Kaufman Subject: Assignment Earth >> Which brings up my question: In "Tomorrow is Yesterday" they >> spotted the Enterprise on radar because it was flying low. >> Supposedly, "Assignment: Earth" was supposed to take place in the >> early 70s (ie, near future) where they would have improved space >> tracking facilities. Why didn't anyone notice the lumbering >> starship up among the heavens? If my recollection was correct, I believe that it was stated in the opening "Captain's report" that the deflector screens were being used to make the Enterprise "invisible" to the old-style Earth sensors. By-the-way: for those in the D.C. area who were less than thrilled with WTTV taking the 5:00 weekly time slot of ST and replacing it with a single Saturday 10:00 AM showing, take heed. Channel 45 plays ST at 6:00 on weekdays. There really IS a God! LLAP, Barney K. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Oct 1984 12:15 EDT (Wed) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" Subject: Asimov/Trekkie fans, (myself included) -- an interesting Which brings up my question: In "Tomorrow is Yesterday" they spotted the Enterprise on radar because it was flying low. Supposedly, "Assignment: Earth" was supposed to take place in the early 70s (ie, near future) where they would have improved space tracking facilities. Why didn't anyone notice the lumbering starship up among the heavens? In "Tomorrow is Yesterday", they were able to spot the Enterprise with radar because the deflectors were not working. In "Assignment: Earth" they were, and were thus able to hide from such primitive devices as radar. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Oct 84 13:14 EDT From: Gubbins@RADC-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #180 In regard to recent Star trek Questions: As Stated, Scotty could have phasered it, but this would be noticed. The Time travel was achieved using the Light Speed Breakaway Factor. I guess this is based on the method Spock/Scott used to return through time after hitting the black hole. The Enterprise was not detected as it had its Shields up. After hitting the black hole, the shields (and most everything else) was down. Spock states that 'Mr. Scott now has the shields up, which will prevent us from further being detected' (or something to this effect). Cheers, Gern ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 8-Oct SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #182 Date: 8 Oct 84 1215-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #182 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Oct 84 1215-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #182 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 8 Oct 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 182 Today's Topics: Books - Anderson (3 msgs) & Asprin & Brust & Jameson (2 msgs) & Ryan (2 msgs) & Zelazney & Collaborations & "Valentina", Films - Buckaroo Banzai & The Stainless Steel Rat, Television - Star Trek (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Saturday, 6 Oct 1984 10:26:31-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Jerry Boyajian) Subject: "Kyrie" request > A survey ship is approaching a black hole accompanied by a > telepathic girl and (outside the ship) an energy being they all > refer to as "Lucifer". Lucifer and the girl (Evangeline?) 'talk' > a lot; he is almost her only companion. As they approach the > black hole, Lucifer darts over to investigate and is trapped by > the gravitational pull. The story jumps to some years later and > to a Lunar convent where the girl is now a novice?. Every year > she says a prayer for Lucifer... whom she can still hear falling > forever into Hell. > > The name of the story is I believe *Kyrie*; I do not remember the > author. > > Emily Brooks {...ihnp4!}akgua!edb The story is, as you say, "Kyrie"; the author is Poul Anderson. It was first published in an anthology of original stories: THE FARTHEST REACHES, edited by Joseph Elder. It has since appeared in: EXPLORERS OF SPACE, edited by Robert Silverberg UNIVERSE AHEAD, edited by Sylvia Engdahl & Rick Roberson WORLD'S BEST SCIENCE FICTION: 1969, edited by Donald A. Wollheim and Terry Carr and THE BEST OF POUL ANDERSON --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Date: 8 Oct 84 10:17:17 EDT Subject: KYRIE Poul Anderson's "Kyrie" is also in an anthology called "Black Holes" which I suspect (book is not close to hand) was edited by Jerry Pournelle. It's about five years old, and I remember it being much duller than it should have been. I dislike themed anthologies; they contain so few surprises. --Jeff Duntemann duntemann.wbst@xerox ------------------------------ Date: 6 Oct 84 13:28:14-PDT (Sat) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!rick @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Obscure Poul Anderson books (Trygve Yamamura stories) Poul Anderson wrote several stories in the late 50s-early 60s concerning one Trygve Yamamura, a half-Norwegian, half-Japanese detective in Los Angeles. I believe the title of one was "Death in Black Letter." The copy I read was stolen from my hometown library years ago, so I've never been able to reread it. What I mostly remember is a mix of the hard-boiled detective genre with some of the delight in life (classical music, beer, martial arts, counter-culture people) that is typical of characters onto whom Anderson appears to be projecting himself. Yamamura was an unusual character, but very enjoyable. Does anyone know what the other stories were, and if these have ever been reprinted elsewhere? "I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving hysterical naked...." -- Allen Ginsberg, "Howl" Rick Keir -- MicroComputer Information Center, MACC 1210 West Dayton St/U Wisconsin Madison/Mad WI 53706 {allegra, ihnp4, seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!rick ------------------------------ Date: 25 Sep 84 17:46:20-PDT (Tue) From: ihnp4!houxm!mhuxj!ulysses!burl!clyde!watmath!utzoo!kcarroll @ From: Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Re: Asprin books For all out there who are interested in Asprin's "Myth*" books, you may also be interested in..."Mythadventures", the comic book! I'm not sure who publishes this; I think it's an independent company; I can check if anyone wants me to. Asprin is credited with plotting the thing; as far as I could tell at first skim, it follows the plot of the first book pretty closely. The drawing is cartoon; it looks like the artist is trying to capture the spirit of Freas at his most whimsical, although (alas) it's not done by Freas, of course. -Kieran A. Carroll ...decvax!utzoo!kcarroll ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Oct 84 12:48:14 cdt From: ihnp4!hyper!brust@Berkeley (Steven Brust) Subject: Here I am For some reason, someone suggested that I let you people know that I'm on the net. Well, er, I am. I've been seeing some of the reviews of my stuff that are forwarded to me, and like what I've seen so far. I hope my being here isn't going to make anyone self-concious about saying what trash I write, or whatever. I mean, shucks.... ------------------------------ Date: 2 Oct 84 11:43:56 EDT From: Alexander B. Latzko Subject: sundry things Bullard of the Space Patrol ( which I have been trying to find for a while) is not quite as naval as was pointed out. The two main weapons used in the Vindictive were Mark XX Kackatrons(sp) . The mark XXs were basically atomic bomb projectors which built up a charge and then threw the unit . Their only problem was the time they took to recharge and their power drain. The second weapon used was called a HELL BORE and consisted of a basic 'death ray type weapon' as used in a newer class of ships. alex The opinions expressed herein are strictly my own, and not the thought processes of my employers 1. Bring back barberella. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Oct 84 6:23:55-PDT (Tue) From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-mrvax!ddb @ From: Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Bullard/Jameson I haven't yet seen the query about these stories, but I've seen a response summarizing many of them; it brings back memories. I really liked them also. I think I read them in two hardcover volumes from the public library; I've never owned them. I don't suppose there's ever been a paperback edition? (Incidentally, this is one reason I view getting recreational reading from libraries with suspicion; that library is now 1500 miles away, and the local one doesn't have Bullard.) I confess to liking Doc Smith's Lensman series somewhat better than Bullard; possibly partly because there was so much MORE of it. In fairness, and while still avoiding flamage, I must point out that even Kimball Kinnison becomes an administrator by the end of the series. -- David Dyer-Bennet -- ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-mrvax!ddb ------------------------------ Date: 06 Oct 84 00:30:46 PDT (Sat) To: mccoy%orc.DEC@decwrl Subject: Re: Adolescence Of P-1 (SPOILER) From: Alastair Milne "Pig Latin" is a joke, moderately commonly known. Pretending to be another language, it simply takes each English word, moves the first consonant (if any) to the end, and appends "ay". If the first letter is not a consonant, it just appends "ay". This is the only modification it makes. I assume it works for most other languages as well as (or as badly as) for English. P1 used it as people sometimes will who are trying to be secretive (pretty useless when it's commonly known). It was, as you say, trying to hide away in Waterloo's 370 (from what little I've heard of OS360, P1 may even have had a good chance of succeeding). Some cereal company (I don't known which and I certainly don't care) used it in its advertising campaign, years ago now, and I suspect that spread it around a good deal. On to trivia even less important ... A. Milne ETC, UC Irvine. ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 8 Oct 1984 07:01:19-PDT From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: Re: The Adolescence of P-1 ** SPOILER *************** SPOILER WARNING *************** OOLCAY ITAY does appear to be Pig Latin. If so, it fits in quite nicely with the title of the book, as Pig Latin is (or, at least, used to be) the universal (in the US) first encoding method used by ADOLESCENTS when they are trying to a) be cool, and b) conceal the subject of their speech from younger uninitiates. Cheers, Dick Binder (The Stainless Steel Rat) UUCP: { decvax, allegra, ucbvax... }! decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-dosadi!binder ARPA: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 3 Oct 84 15:37:51-PDT (Wed) From: decvax!dartvax!davidk @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: New Zelazny "Chronicles of Amber" books? Does anyone know when Roger Zelazny is supposed to release his new book(s) in the Amber series? I am impatiently waiting and waiting. David C. Kovar USNET: {linus|decvax|cornell|astrovax}!dartvax!davidk ARPA: davidk%dartmouth@csnet-relay CSNET: davidk@dartmouth "The difficult we did yesterday, the impossible we are doing now." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Oct 84 05:37 MST From: Deryk Barker Subject: Collaborations Let's also not forget that Jules Verne wrote a completion of Edgar Allan Poe's "The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym". I would also suggest that people had been "completing" (e.g.) the final fugue from Bach's "Art of Fugue" and Schubert's "Unfinished" symphony even earlier - but that's probably a different subject. deryk. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Oct 84 15:35:59-PDT (Thu) From: decvax!tektronix!orca!shark!hutch @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Valentina, Soul In Sapphire Has anyone read "Valentina, Soul in Sapphire" yet? It looks very much like a feminized version of "The Adolescence of P1" except that it is somewhat updated. Even includes Usenet (WELL, sort of). I glanced at the first few pages in the store, and the writing looks to be somewhat better than "P1". Also, the hackerese is somewhat better. The self-aware process speaks in "ModuLisp" which (of course) reads like a lisp-modula cross. I don't know if there actually IS such a language. Hutch ------------------------------ Date: 2 Oct 84 11:43:56 EDT From: Alexander B. Latzko Subject: sundry things Greetings: Buckaroo Banzai is opening in New York and environs on Friday October 5. alex The opinions expressed herein are strictly my own, and not the thought processes of my employers 1. Bring back barberella. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Oct 84 11:43:56 EDT From: Alexander B. Latzko Subject: sundry things Greetings: For a Stainless Steel Rat Movie: Slippery Jim DiGriz : Harrison Ford Inkskip : Roger Moore Angela : a}early stories Sigourney Weaver b}late stories Jane Fonda @+1 James and Bolivar : A pair of totally unknown twins. alex The opinions expressed herein are strictly my own, and not the thought processes of my employers 1. Bring back barberella. ------------------------------ Date: 1 Oct 84 14:19:31-PDT (Mon) From: decvax!mcnc!akgua!whuxle!spuxll!abnjh!u1100a!pyuxn!pyuxww!pyuxa! From: ajf @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Tomorrow is Yesterday, etc. (Spock's Brain) Several people have recently mentioned something to the effect that "why couldn't Capt. Pike's brain be put in a box like Spock's was..." Well... if you remember, Spock's brain was stolen for use in the environmental control system that had been set up by a now-dead race of super-advanced people (I believe they were called the Teachers). It was they who had developed the technology to take a brain out of someone's head and attach it to a computer, not the federation. If you remember, McCoy had to be "taught" how to put Spock's brain back in his body, and one of his arguments for using the "teacher" device was to gain this incredible knowledge so he could bring it back to the federation. As it turned out, his new-found genius was only short-term, and he just barely got Spock's brain back in place (with a little help from Spock himself). Thus, the reason that Pike's brain couldn't be so used was because the technology was lost forever when McCoy forgot what the teachers had taught him. (I won't even start to get into the moral questions involved.) ------------------------------ Date: 5 Oct 84 3:32:38-PDT (Fri) From: ihnp4!wlcrjs!marc @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Re: Tomorrow is Yesterday, etc. > I thought this show was interesting in that it is one of the few > that uses the discoveries made in previous shows. I mean how > about the one where Spock's brain is stolen and used as a > environmental control computer. In another show we see the > previous captain of the Enterprise paralized. His brain in > working order, but unable to speak or move. If the technology > existed to interface to Spock's disembodied brain, why not the > other man's. I am sure all of us can think of discoveries on one > show that could have solved the problems in the next. If I recall properly, in the episode in which Spock's brain was transplanted, the knowledge of how to do so, was not common knowledge, but was available to the race of females on the planet by use of a "teaching" helmet. McCoy used the helmet, but began to forget all the complex information in the middle of his operation. I suppose they could have borrowed that knowledge for the Federation, but no where did it state that they did. So, my point is that they did not have the knowledge to transplant Captain Pike's brain. Another thing I'm not sure of is which episode came first. Can anyone fill us in on that. Marc Lavine uucp: ...ihnp4!wlcrjs!marc ------------------------------ Date: 8 Oct 1984 1235-GDT From: CCD-ARG (on Dundee Tech DEC20) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #181 Regarding the comment about technology being used in one show not being present in another, well in "The Menagerie" in which the previous Capt. of the Enterprise (Pike ?) is seen paralysed they could not interface his brain as happened to Spock in "Spock's Brain" as a) Spock's Brain was a considerably later episode b) Spock's was operated on by an alien race using knowledge considerably in advance of anything 'Bones' can do. Indeed he risks his life to save Spock's by connecting himself to the alien teaching machine which temporarily gives him the skills to reconnect Spock Incidentally The Menagerie was a two part episode constructed from the second Star Trek pilot and so was one of the first episodes made in any case. Alan Greig Comp Centre Dundee College of Technology Dundee Scotland ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 9-Oct SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #183 Date: 9 Oct 84 1335-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #183 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Oct 84 1335-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #183 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 9 Oct 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 183 Today's Topics: Books - Asprin & Bradbury & Niven & K.S. Robinson & Saxon & V. Vinge & Wolfe & Thieve's World, Films - Dune (2 msgs), Television - Twilight zone (5 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 9 Oct 84 11:15:56 EDT From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] Subject: Mythadventures Comic Book The comic book is being done by the Same people who brought you ElfQuest....Wendy and Richard Pini. It is following the first book exactly, and is drawn by Phil Foglio (who did the cover for the latest Myth* book in trade paperback edition). I beleive it is on a quarterly schedule, but I may be wrong. You can order it from the publishers, and it is probably available elsewhere, but I dont know where. I can get more information, but I cant send out to netland personally, so this will do people little good. have fun /amqueue ------------------------------ Date: 5 Oct 84 3:42:35-PDT (Fri) From: ihnp4!wlcrjs!marc @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Re: Short Story Title Request (help!) > The short story about the man in the cocoon is called "Chrysalis" > By Ray Bradbury and can be found in one of "S is for Space" or "R > is for Rocket", I don't remember which. Well, I have "R is for Rocket", and its not in there so... Marc Lavine uucp: ...ihnp4!wlcrjs!marc ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 6 Oct 1984 10:40:14-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Jerry Boyajian) Subject: re: THE INTEGRAL TREES > It's a bizarre, beautiful concept that was utterly wasted on the > total banality of the story, which was a travelog with some > shootemup here and there to keep things interesting. This could > have been another Ringworld, but I suspect NIven wasn't quite sure > what to do with his creation once he had worked out all the math. > > --Jeff Duntemann duntemann.wbst@xerox That's funny, I was rather disappointed with RINGWORLD because I thought *it* was nothing more than a "travelog with some shootemup here and there to keep things interesting". I muchly preferred RINGWORLD ENGINEERS, because it used the Ringworld as a setting for a real story. And I'm a hardcore Niven fan. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}! decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Oct 84 04:15:29 mdt From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley) Subject: A review of ICEHENGE by Kim Stanley Robinson ICEHENGE. Kim Stanley Robinson. Ace, c1984. Non-spoiler review: A very good book. Sensitive hard SF. Micro-spoiler review: A very different book from Robinson's previous novel, THE WILD SHORE, but just as well written. Robinson shows a lot of attention to detail in both characters and setting, evoking a clear vision of life on Mars and around the outer planets over the next seven centuries. The title refers to a curious structure of 66 blocks of ice in a circular array that has been found at the north pole of Pluto. Who built it? It's not an easy question, and you will be left guessing right up to the last couple pages. This is fine hard SF from a writer who brings more to the genre than most other writers. Mini-spoiler review: ICEHENGE reminds me strongly of Gregory Benford's work. Robinson has a thoroughly worked out picture of human history through at least the 2600's, covering the political consequences of planetary colonization and the social consequences of 600-year lifespans; the latter are particularly interesting given the hypothesis that memory diminishes over time, so that people can only maintain a clear image of their last hundred years or so and sometimes need to resort to detective work to discover what they did when they were 'young'. Technology is altering the faces of the other planets in the solar system, and Robinson brings us along on a hike across a partially terraformed Mars. (One of Robinson's characters works for the Titan Weather Company.) Political unrest on Mars leads to revolt, which is handled (alas) much more realistically than in THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS. This detail lends a wonderful feel to the book which is missing from the sort of space western which is all too prone to turn up when you look for hard SF. The book is divided into three sections; each section is narrated by a character whose motives are called into question by the narrators of other sections, so that you are forced to judge for yourself whom to believe. The first section is told by Emma Weil, a life scientist who finds herself shanghaied by members of the Mars Starship Association during the confusion of the Martian Civil War. The second story is told by Hjalmar Nederland, a 300-year-old archaeologist who is desperately trying to prove that the official version of the war is not the right one. (Although Nederland lived during the war, it happened so long ago that his memory of it has evaporated...) The third story is told by Edmond Doya, the great-grandson of Nederland, who believes that Nederland and Weil were wrong and that someone behind the scenes has been manipulating events. His paranoia runs deep -- but perhaps not deep enough. Surrounding these three very different personalities is the enigmatic circle of Icehenge, whose mystery gradually secretes itself into the structure of their lives, leading to a grand obsession that can only be satisfied by the discovery of the builders. Very nicely done and well recommended. Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ Date: 8 Oct 1984 1435 PDT From: Alvin Wong Subject: Pig Latin in P1 Pig Latin was a very common coding algorithm in my grade school days. One takes the first consonant of each word, suffix it with "ay" and suffix the result at the end of the word. There was no reference to it in the P1 book. Robert Heinlein uses/refers to it in a couple of his books. But since we are on the subject of explanations, has anyone read "The Hieros Gamos of Sam and Ann Smith" by Josephine Saxon (I think). It was published a while back (15+ years) and there has been no new printings. The book had received quite good reviews. I would appreciate any comments or even a logical explanation of the storyline jump. To refresh the memories of those of you that have read it : ****** SPOILER WARNING ****** The story opens with Sam, a young boy, being the only human on earth. During the course of the story, he finds a woman giving birth to a baby girl. The woman dies shortly after childbirth and Sam is left to take care of the girl (Ann). After Ann matures, she becomes Sam's wife. Up to now, Sam and Ann are the only humans on earth. Then the story takes a drastic jump and we find Sam and Ann are middle class people with a house in the suburbs and Sam with a 9-5 job. ------------------------------ Date: Mon 8 Oct 84 22:03:29-EDT From: Michael Rubin Subject: TRUE NAMES returns According to a Bluejay employee, Bluejay is reprinting Vernor Vinge's 1981 novella TRUE NAMES; scheduled release in December, b&w illustrated (I didn't recognize the artist's name). I'm unsure whether it's hardcover or trade paperback. Erythrina lives!!! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Oct 84 04:47:39 mdt From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley) Subject: Gene Wolfe's new novel FREE LIVE FREE Gene Wolfe's novel FREE LIVE FREE is going to be published by Mark Ziesing's specialty press sometime in the next few weeks. FREE LIVE FREE lived free of a contract for a while because Timescape Books went down the tubes, but in a deal with Ziesing, who also published Wolfe's book about THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN named THE CASTLE OF THE OTTER, a special limited edition will come out this month. According to LOCUS #285, the edition will be illustrated, signed, and limited to 750 copies. According to Mark Ziesing when I spoke to him on the phone, the book will be a high quality printing, 500 pages with a fancy dustjacket, and will cost $45. I shelled out for one, and if you think $45 is a bit steep then you can find out later whether it's worth it when I review it. If you're interested in a copy yourself, here are Mark's parameters: Mark Ziesing PO Box 806 (for orders) or 762 Main St. (where the shop is) Willimantic CT 06226 (203) 423-5836 until 7 PM, Tuesday through Saturday 'Orders over $25 are sent post free' except $2.50 overseas Mark has also published Phil Dick's early novel THE MAN WHOSE TEETH WERE ALL EXACTLY ALIKE, one of the missing books from Dick's pre-SF period. When Dick re-read his old unpublished novels soon before he died, he picked TEETH as his favorite. Mark will part with a copy of TEETH for $19.50, plus $1.50 postage and handling if it's not part of another order. I have no connection with Mark Ziesing and have never even been to Connecticut, Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ Date: Sun 7 Oct 84 21:26:14-PDT From: Bob Larson Subject: Thieves World #6: Wings of Omen There is a new volume in the thieves world series. If you liked the previous ones, you'll probably like this one. Due to numerous vague references to things that are explained or happened in previous volumes, I would not recommend starting the series with this volume. There are two new (to the series) authors: Diane Duane and Robin Bailey, and Janet Morris has Chris as a co-author (Husband?). Lynn Abbey is co-editor again. Did anyone else notice the high proportion of female authors in this series? (Not a complaint, just an observation) A note in the front of the book mentions "various short stories and one novel published involving a Thieves World(TM) character" and notes that events in unauthorized stories will not effect sanctuary. The novel is Jamie the Red by Gordon Dickson and Roland Green, what are the short stories? Listed as authorized tie-in works are three novels by Janet Morris, one to be published next May, and the others do not have a publisher mentioned so probably haven't been published. Thieves World #6: Wings of Omen Edited by Robert Asprin and Lynn Abbey Ace Fantasy November 1984 Isbn: 0-441-80593-0 $2.95 Bob Larson ------------------------------ Date: 3 Oct 84 15:37:51-PDT (Wed) From: decvax!dartvax!davidk @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Comment on Dune movie I saw the 1985 Dune calendar. It had stills from the movie. ARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGG. Paul is waiting on the sand just before riding his first Maker and is wearing *nothing* above the shoulders. No cape, no stillsuit, no nothing. Now I realize that you can't pay an actor so much $$$ and cover his face, but lets be reasonable. Also, the previews I saw in the theatre had the Baron flying around on his suspensors. Last I checked, they only supported his weight, they could not lift nor guide him. ARRRRRRRRGGRGRGRGGRGGG. David C. Kovar USNET: {linus|decvax|cornell|astrovax}!dartvax!davidk ARPA: davidk%dartmouth@csnet-relay CSNET: davidk@dartmouth "The difficult we did yesterday, the impossible we are doing now." ------------------------------ Date: 6 Oct 84 6:33:57-PDT (Sat) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!milo!eric @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Comment on Dune movie While we may not agree with the way Dune is presented in the movies, one thing to remember is that Herbert was deeply involved with the project, and is very happy with the result. eric ...!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!milo!eric ------------------------------ Date: 3 Oct 84 20:23:29-PDT (Wed) From: decvax!vortex!lauren @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Twilight Zone Of course, "Incident at Owl Creek Bridge" was, properly speaking, not really a TZ episode at all. The show consists of Serling appearing at the beginning admitting that they didn't make this film, and that they were running it due to its high quality and award winning status. It is the same short subject that has made the rounds through various outlets over the years, only with the short intro by Serling prepended in this case. --Lauren-- ------------------------------ Date: 6 Oct 1984 01:31 MDT (Sat) From: Ron Fowler Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #181 On Friday, October 12, WGN will present its "Twilight Zone Silver Anniversary" at 11:45 PM Central, 12:45 Easter time. Here's the synopsis from my TV Guide: "This salute to the series features three seldom-seen episodes with some familiar start -- and with some segments reprocessed in color. 1. 'Miniature,' with Robert Duvall. 2. 'A Short Drink from a Certain Fountain,' with Patrick O'Neal. 3. 'Sounds and Silences,' with John McGiver. (2hrs.)" Alas, no mention of "An Occurance at Owl Creek Bridge". ------------------------------ Date: 2 Oct 84 22:38:26-PDT (Tue) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!harvard!godot!mit-eddie!barmar @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Twilight Zone ables@ut-ngp.UUCP (King Ables) writes: >I have also heard from a friend that WGN (Chicago) is going to pull >out those un-syndicated shows and show them. The way I have heard it (from at least two sources), about four episodes are being added to the set that are in syndication, and they will be shown all around the country starting this month. This set includes the doll house episode which stars a very young Robert Duvall. Barry Margolin ARPA: barmar@MIT-Multics UUCP: ..!genrad!mit-eddie!barmar ------------------------------ Date: 3 Oct 84 10:38:04-PDT (Wed) From: ihnp4!ihuxo!engels @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Twilight Zone 4 episodes of Twilight Zone were aired last night on WGN. The doll house episode with Robert Duvall was amoung them. Sue Engels ihnp4!ihuxo!engels ------------------------------ Date: 5 Oct 84 3:53:41-PDT (Fri) From: ihnp4!wlcrjs!marc @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Re: Twilight Zone > The way I have heard it (from at least two sources), about four > episodes are being added to the set that are in syndication, and > they will be shown all around the country starting this month. > This set includes the doll house episode which stars a very young > Robert Duvall. On the EMMY awards show, they showed a scene from that episode, and said it hadn't been seen on television in 20 years. That seemed a little strange to me, since I really thought I'd seen that one a few years ago. Marc Lavine uucp: ...ihnp4!wlcrjs!marc ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 10-Oct SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #184 Date: 10 Oct 84 1148-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #184 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 10 Oct 84 1148-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #184 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 10 Oct 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 184 Today's Topics: Books - McCaffrey & Saxon & Collaborations & Libraries & Thieve's World, Films - Buckaroo Banzai (2 msgs) & Dune & Metropolis, Television - Star Trek & Dr. Who, Miscellaneous - Con in Belleville, NJ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Oct 84 12:07:49-PDT (Mon) From: ihnp4!ihu1j!gek @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Review of MORETA I finally broke down and bought Moreta, by Anne McCaffrey (at least, I can say with some pride, I waited for paperback!). Ycch; I finished it but it went straight into my "resell" pile. I don't want to make this a spoiler, but it is safe to say that AM never made it clear who the hero(ine) is. Is it the Masterhealer? The Lord of Rautha? The aging queen rider? Surely not Moreta, we never even got to see her song (not even a single line!). Everybody gets equal time, and nobody gets enough time. Well, that's my opinion in 8 lines. I bought Buckaroo Banzai at the same time because of all the noise on the net about the movie, and I'm thoroughly enjoying it (by way of comparison)! glenn kapetansky "The time has come", the Walrus said, "To talk of many things..." ...ihnp4!ihu1j!gek ------------------------------ From: DALTON FHL (on ERCC DEC-10) Date: Wednesday, 10-Oct-84 10:48:18-BST Subject: The Hieros Gamos of Sam and An Smith A few years ago, I read a something by Josephine Saxon and, wanting more, obtained "The Hieros Gamos of Sam and An Smith" through interlibrary loan from my local library (this was in the US), an excellent method for finding even books as obscure as this one. It's not for everyone, but I was very impressed. I too was puzzled by the ending. It would help, or at least I hope it would, to know what "hieros gamos" means, or even to find some reason for the name "An" instead of "Ann", but I'm not sure a logical explanation of the storyline jump is possible. Still, if we all throw in a few bits, perhaps something will emerge. >>> If you have not read the book, you may want to stop here. <<< First, it's not quite true that Sam is the only human on earth. Apart from the woman who dies, I think I recall (this means I'm not sure I trust the memory) that the boy had met some other people and was reluctant to meet more. This is why he didn't like to loop back to anywhere he'd already been -- he might meet someone who was following. Then there was the old woman (I'm more sure of this) in the Department store who selected a pile of books for him to read. (If I'm correct here, does anyone remember which books?) Still, Sam and An never actually meet anyone else, so for most of the story they are effectively the only ones. I also recall that a lot of things-in-need-of-explanation happen on the way to the story discontinuity. I believe that for most of the book, the boy and girl have no names, or at least that something involving names happens near the end. I wish I could remember how old they were and what they did just before the discontinuity as well. Their life changes considerably once they reach the sea (at the amusement park): she becomes his wife, but other things happen as well, and the girl is the leader in at least some of this. (I seem to recall her suggesting that it was "time".) Well, you can see that my memory is hazy (at best) on all points, but if I had to make a guess at what it was all about, I'd say that it involved the transformation of children into adults (the transformation in general -- because otherwise I wouldn't be saying much, but also because Sam and An are sort of generic names). I would look for metaphors and associations rather than something like: someone tried an experiment along the lines of Wigner's Friend and this is what happened before someone looked in to make the quantum choice determinate, or: disease (war?) killed most people on earth, but actually the world split at that point and somehow the boy and girl were able to reunite the alternates. Actually, I'm more inclined not to interpret it at all and just see what else, if anything, connects. Jeff Dalton, University of Edinburgh J.Dalton%edxa@ucl-cs ------------------------------ Date: 9 Oct 84 10:22:58 EDT From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst Subject: Verne and Poe In V9 #182, Deryk Barker says, Let's also not forget that Jules Verne wrote a completion of Edgar Allan Poe's "The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym". Let's do forget that Verne wrote a completion and instead remember that he wrote a SEQUEL to Poe's "Pym" (called, I believe, AN ANTARCTIC ADVENTURE) (and a pretty poor sequel it was, too). Poe completed "Pym" all by himself. Chris ------------------------------ Date: 9 Oct 84 10:24:13 EDT From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst Subject: Recreational reading from libraries In V9 #182, David Dyer-Bennet says, I haven't yet seen the query about these stories, but I've seen a response summarizing many of them; it brings back memories. I really liked them also. I think I read them in two hardcover volumes from the public library; I've never owned them. I don't suppose there's ever been a paperback edition? (Incidentally, this is one reason I view getting recreational reading from libraries with suspicion; that library is now 1500 miles away, and the local one doesn't have Bullard.) May I submit that David has missed the point regarding recreational reading from libraries? Since he never owned a copy of Bullard of the Space Patrol, how could he have had these pleasant memories if not for the library? Correspondingly, how many times has he (or anyone) bought and read a book, only to say, "Well, that was a waste of good money."? Personal libraries are well and good (he says, having quite a large one himself), but they're always limited by one's (past and current) tastes. Public libraries are *designed* for recreational reading. Sheesh! Chris ------------------------------ Date: 9 Oct 1984 22:48 EDT (Tue) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" Subject: Thieves World #6: Wings of Omen There was a short story about Lythande in a recent issue of Fantasy and Science Fiction Magazine, I believe. I can get the title if anyone is interested. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Oct 84 11:10:25 EDT From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] Subject: Buckaroo Banzai....SPOILER!!!!! If you like bizarre movies, if absurd things casually thrown together make you giggle incessantly, if you **LOVE** comic books and wish they were on the big screen, GO SEE THIS MOVIE!!!!! *****SPOILER STARTS HERE***** Buckaroo Banzai seems to me like a true comic book in the 50's tradition filmed exactly as written. Buckaroo Banzai is a brain surgeon. However, he got bored, and decided to pursue particle physics and rock music. He travels with "those hard-rocking scientists, the Hong Kong Cavaliers". He is the son of a Japanese father and an American mother, and so started life as he was destined to live it...going in many directions at once. He is fighting evil aliens from Planet Ten at the command of Good Aliens from Planet Ten (if he doesn't catch the bad guy, they are going to bomb Russia and make it look like we did it). There is the obligatory Scientist Friend of His Deceased Parents, the Smart Blonde Who Acts Dumb, the New Member of The Group, and other marvelous types. The Evil Ring leader talks with an accent that is apparently deliberately a cross between Italian and Jamaican. The Good Aliens look like Rastafarians to almost everyone. The space ships look like sea shells. There is a watermelon in a hydraulic press. There is one Evil Alien who sucks on a 6volt battery like a soda. The War of the Worlds radio hoax was no hoax: Hundreds of people from Grovers Mill applied for Social Security on November 1, 1938 for a company called Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems.....the hotbed of the Evil Aliens and the current contractor for America's new bomber. There is so much and so little going on at once that after 2 showings I am still confused, and still giggling. This movie has no reason for existence. But then, neither does Rocky Horror. It is fun. I want the sound track. "What is that watermelon doing there?" "I'll tell you later." Insanity Reigns, /amqueue ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Oct 84 12:54:56 EDT From: Brian Charles Sudis Subject: Buckaroo Banzai! Having just seen this movie this weekend in the D.C. area, I have to say it is far from the best movie I have ever seen, but it sure is one of the most FUN movies I have had a chance to see in a long time! Read the book too! (Before or after, cause it's fun too!) Brian. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Oct 1984 22:38 EDT From: ASP%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Herbert's involvement with Dune Herbert did a pretty good job of trashing Dune when he wrote God Emperor etc. Why should we expect him to do any better on the screen? --Jim ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Oct 84 10:51 EST From: Steven Gutfreund Subject: Metropolis For a MACPerson, who gets a major high out of visuals (work stations, etc.) Fritz Lang is a real treat. This film makes excellent use of the visual media that Film in truth is. One recent NYT magazine reviewer complained that he film he was watching on an airline (without sound) was incredibly boring, that modern directors have forgotten how to film without sound. Not so with Fritz Lang or the MTV people. As for the much criticized musical sound track that has been added to this film - I liked it. A purist will only be satisfied with orthodox purity, but I felt the sound-track added a bit of humorous running commentary on a film whose plot is a bit stale after 58 years. It's sort of like the vaudeville act where the person doing the skit on stage is parodied by a person in the wings. - Steven Gutfreund ------------------------------ Date: 9 Oct 1984 10:11-PDT Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #182 From: Craig E. Ward Incidentally The Menagerie was a two part episode constructed from the second Star Trek pilot and so was one of the first episodes made in any case. The Menagerie was the first pilot. It did not have as much "adventure" as the TV executives wanted so Where No Man Has Gone Before was made at a later date. Not all of the actors from the first pilot were available so Roddenberry had to get new people for such roles as Captain Kirk. Incidentally, according to Roddenberry, the original color print for The Menagerie has been lost. Only the parts used in the later two-part show exist in color. (I've seen it in B&W and it is as good as any other episode). So it goes. ------------------------------ Date: Mon 8 Oct 84 12:53:43-EDT From: Larry Seiler Subject: Dr. Who Convention with Matthew Waterhouse (Adric) We had a Who/Trek/Comics convention in Boston last weekend, and I got to hear Matthew Waterhouse talk about his experiences as Adric. Here are some of the questions and paraphrased answers [with my comments in brackets]. *** If you haven't seen the Adric episodes yet, this is a minor spoiler *** Q: Are you a fan of Doctor Who? A: Every Briton of my age grew up watching Doctor Who, and had toy Daleks (I had six). [In other words, not any more - it's just a kid show, right?] Q: How did you feel about getting the part? A: I ran right home and signed the contract before they could change their minds. I was very happy with the money I was going to make. Q: Did you leave the series by choice? A: Yes - I had been on for two years and was ready for other things (currently I am working in the theater). There's not a lot for a sidekick to do. I spent most of my time saying "I don't understand, Doctor", and "please explain, Doctor", and "Why?!?". Q: How did you feel when Adric was killed off? A: Relieved. The way Adric was defined, it was unlikely that he would ever want to stay behind on a planet, and he was too young to fall in love. Killing him was the only way for him to leave that was consistent with his character. The writer [I forget his name] who has done some of the best Dr. Who scripts said that he would have killed off Leela too, instead of the silly thing they did. Q: Were you happy with the way Adric developed as compared to the concept? A: The problem was that most of the production crew are bachelors, and the rest only have small children. So even though Adric was supposed to be 15 (I was 17 when I left the show), he was written much younger (the director kept telling me to "be more innocent"). Q: When you walk into the Tardis, is it really as small as it looks? A: BBC hasn't got the technology to make it bigger on the inside than on the outside. One time, Adric was marched into the Tardis by six guards with big guns, and we really were crowded into a box the size of a phone booth. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Oct 84 19:10:06-PDT (Tue) From: ihnp4!mhuxj!mhuxm!mhuxi!charm!mam @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Mini-con in Belleville, NJ, 10/20 . \ . / \ * / \*/ ..**O THE NEW JERSEY SCIENCE FICTION SOCIETY PROUDLY PRESENTS /*\ / * \ . *** * * * *** * *** * *** ***** *** * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * * * * * *** * * * *** * *** * *** * *** * ** ------ | / \ | | / \ | | | | | | \ / | | >----< \ | / \ -----+ | | | \ / | \_____/ ^ ************** A One-Day Mini-Con **************** GOH: L. Sprague De Camp Lin Carter Also: Films Video Art Dealers Discussions FUN When: Saturday, October 20, Noon ---> Midnight The Bad News: $4.00 Admission Where: Belleville Masonic Temple 126 Joralemon Street Belleville, NJ How to Get There: Temple is at 126 Joralemon St., near Washington Ave, in Belleville. From NY, take De Camp #44 bus (sorry, I'm just relaying these directions!) From NJ, take TNJ #13 bus ( " ) Driving, take Rt. 3 to Rt. 21S, get off 21 at Main St. exit. Turn left, drive to Joralemon (crossing railroad tracks, then main drag on hill), turn right. Temple on right, big concrete pillars, can't be mistaken for anything but what it is. For Information: Randolph Fritz (201) 641-2170 (phone) New Jersey SF Society PO Box 65 Paramus NJ 07653 ********* DEALER SPACE FREE IF WE HAVE ANY LEFT ******** Art Show Info: Robert Hepperle (201) 434-8857 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 11-Oct SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #185 Date: 11 Oct 84 1149-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #185 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Oct 84 1149-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #185 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 11 Oct 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 185 Today's Topics: Books - Zelazney & Valentina (2 msgs) & Poe & Defending the Literary Fort, Films - Stainless Steel Rat & Buckaroo Banzai (3 msgs) & Conan & Dune (2 msgs), Television - Tales From the Darkside & Star Trek ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue 9 Oct 84 14:07:24-EDT From: Rob Austein Subject: Amber What's this about more Amber books? I thought Courts of Chaos pretty much tied that off. There's more coming? Please tell. -- Rob ------------------------------ Date: Tue 9 Oct 84 12:57:28-PDT From: Laurence R Brothers Subject: valentina This is the first novel I've read which was based on computers, was written by someone who knew something about computers, and actually uses computer jargon with relative accuracy. Unfortunately, a lot of stuff in the book is just plain WRONG! I won't go into it, or the discussion will be worse than that on "V" which dragged on interminably without any interest-value at all. What I will criticize is a) the statement that all hackers are criminals who enjoy breaking other people's programs, and b) the portrayal of all hackers in the novel (there are at least 6), as being totally weird and divorced from normal society. The two main characters are stereotyped freaks; the heroine is a shy overweight games-player who knows more than four times as many computer languages fluently than she does human languages, of which she knows seven. The other main character is a slob with an addiction to french-fries and might be portrayed by, say, Walter Matthau severely hung-over on a bad day. Now, I don't claim that all or even most hackers come anywhere near any kind of societal norm, but most of them you could pass in the street without crossing to the other side, which is more than I can say for most of the people in Valentina (who is, by the way, totally impossible as far as the technology rendered in the book, but that's besides the point). In other words, too bad guys (I forget who the co-authors are), but the book just doesn't succeed. It would have done well if either the writing and plot had been good (it is almost puerile in its reasoning), or the characters and technology had been reasonable, but the book fails in almost all respects. -Laurence ------------------------------ Date: 8 Oct 84 12:55:29-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!sdcc6!ix241 @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: _Valentina-Soul in Sapphire_ _Valentina-Soul in Sapphire_; Joseph H. Delany and Mark Siegler _Valentina_ is three shorter works cobbled together. Two appeared in Analog this year (May(?) and September). The book is fun, I think. However, The first appearance of Valentina in Analog caused a bit of an uproar here on the net over the characterization of the two hacker protagonists. The idea of the computer program who wakes up is intriguing. The author's characterization of the title character is good. Some of the other characters are a bit cardboard. The last section is a bit hokey but overall the stories are a good read. John Testa UCSD Chemistry sdcsvax!sdcc6!ix241 ------------------------------ Date: Wed 10 Oct 84 10:01:06-EDT From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: Arthur Gordon Pym The full title of Poe's only novel is The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym of Nantucket and I will say nothing that might spoil this story for anyone who hasn't read it. Jules Verne's sequel is The Sphynx of the Ice-Fields In addition, there are allusions or reflections of Poe's book in some other fantastic novels, such as The Greatest Adventure - John Taine At the Mountains of Madness - H P Lovecraft But Poe's work itself in some respects strangely resembles another, greater book - Moby Dick Robert Firth ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 84 21:32:44 PDT (Wed) Subject: Defending the literary fort... From: Greg Finnegan (I hope that these kind of flames are not getting tedious, but here goes...) After reading various negative comments about some of the authors (Herbert, Anthony, Niven) and their works (Dune, Adept series, Ringworld,etc.) that I have enjoyed greatly, I felt I should argue in favor of the aforementioned. But I didn't feel that I should answer in rebuttal to each argument posted, until I was inspired by a foreword by Isaac Asimov that appeared in an old anthology. This should sum up why I feel some opinions of these books is unfair (everyone is entitled to their own opinion - even if they are wrong...). Science fiction (this include fantasy in my mind) is the only printed arena where authors can get away with such far (and not so far) reaching ideas as they do (unless you want to count some of the off the wall works of Gore Vidal -- Duluth, and such). Since the author is not usually dealing with such well known facts that objects fall when you drop them, dogs bark, and fire trucks are red (in my town), he must spend much of his time describing the background - social, political, biological, etc. aspects. This leaves very little room to expand upon characterization and minute plot details that writers of 'normal' fiction delve into. Sure the characters in Dune are shallow and sometimes boring, but the political web that is woven by Herbert is immense. And sure, Niven's Integral Trees is just a shoot-em-up travelogue, but he gave us a novel (no pun...) setting that is unparalleled in any of the reading I have done lately (read LATELY! - and I will accept suggestions). This may sound rude, but if you want thoughtful characterizations and intricate plots all of the time - read a few of the classics recommended by the national library association. I admit that there are sf novels out there that meet these requirements, but that doesn't mean that the others can't be enjoyed for what they are. -- Greg finnegan@uci-icsc ------------------------------ Date: Tue 9 Oct 84 14:07:24-EDT From: Rob Austein Subject: Stainless Steel Rat JANE FONDA and ROGER MOORE as Inskipp and Angelina?!!!? Gag!! (The others are ok.) How about Sean Connery as Inskipp? He looks the part and is a *much* better actor than Moore ever was or will be. -- Rob ------------------------------ Date: 8 Oct 84 7:32:55-PDT (Mon) From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!pegasus!hocsj!ecl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: BUCKEROO BANZAI The problem with a movie where anything can happen is that *anything* can happen. Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!hocsj!ecl ------------------------------ Date: 8 Oct 84 7:32:46-PDT (Mon) From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!pegasus!hocsj!ecl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: BUCKEROO BANZAI BUCKEROO BANZAI A film review by Mark R. Leeper The phenomenon of the midnight audience cult classic has given rise to a number of films trying to outdo each other for weirdness. It seems that to capture this highly profitable audience the filmmaker has to create a film unlike the kind of fare that one usually sees when common work-a-day people can get to a theater. In nature the majority of mutations are non-viable, and the same principle applies to films that try to be different to catch the after-midnight crowd. Most are films everyone should see at most once. And that isn't the idea at all. Rare is the person who sits through ERASERHEAD repeatedly. In any town big enough to make showing midnight films profitable, people who would see ERASERHEAD more than once will find other establishments to cater to their masochistic tendencies. More light-hearted than most attempted classics is BUCKEROO BANZAI: ACROSS THE 8TH DIMENSION. This film bears roughly the same relationship to comic books that head cheese bears to meat. It is a very strange dicing and throwing together of many very odd ideas. It is sort of DOC SAVAGE crossed with THE MONITORS done in the style of THE LAST DAYS OF MAN ON EARTH. It seems that we really were invaded the night of the famous Orson Welles broadcast of THE WAR OF THE WORLDS on October 30, 1938. (The scriptwriter and most of the rest of the world think the date was the 31st, but the correct date was really Sunday the 30th.) There are two groups of battling aliens, the red Lectroids and the black Lectroids, with Earth caught in the middle. The only person who can save us is super-scientist/rock- singer/neurosurgeon Buckeroo Banzai. This over-achiever leads a band of loyal compatriots and an army of child confederates. On the side of evil is B.B.'s arch-enemy Emilio Lizardo (John Lithgow) and the nasty red Lectroids. Allied with Buckeroo for good are the black Lectroids. The aliens are all around but without special glasses, the red Lectroids look like AT&T executives and the blacks look like Rastafarians. Does that sound odd? There is more to come. B.B. has a new device that lets him move through solid matter by projecting him into the eighth dimension which turns out to be the subway tunnel the Lectroids use to get here from Planet Ten (of course!). If that sounds confusing, don't worry. You now have a concrete advantage over the rest of the audience toward understanding this film. It may even give you a fighting chance to assimilate what is going on. Maybe. Confusion, camp, bad acting, strange action, rock music, and homilies like, "No matter where you go, there you are" combine to make this film,...well...odd. Not too bad, but a long way from perfect. Rate it +1 (on a -4 to +4 scale). (Evelyn C. Leeper for) Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!lznv!mrl ------------------------------ Date: 11 Oct 1984 04:24:17-EDT (Thursday) From: Nick Simicich Subject: Buckaroo Banzai I really liked the movie, but let me emphasize that it is really helpful to read the novelization before going. Whereas most movies don't do justice to their books, novelizations, frequently having nothing to do but paraphrase a script and paint pictures, don't have as much of a quality gap. I was the only one of my friends who liked Star Trek, the first of many, because I knew what was going on. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Oct 84 00:25:56 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: The next Conan movie According to a recent announcement in the LA Times, the next Conan movie has already started shooting. The working title is "Red Sonja". (I thought Milius had already stolen most of the interesting stuff from Howard's Red Sonja, but...) Arnold is playing Conan, as before. Sandahl Bergman is playing a villainess; it will be interesting to see how they slip that one by. An unknown is playing Red Sonja, out for revenge against the nasty lady who croaked her family (Bergman's guilty, of course), and informed by a vision not to fool around with any man unless he can beat her in combat. Guess who that'll be? The reported budget is $35 million, which is about twice the budget of "Conan the Destroyer", and should buy lots of special effects, especially if they film it in Mexico, like the last one. I've lost the announcement, but I believe that Richard Fleischer is directing, again. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 84 09:30:21 PDT (Wednesday) From: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: Comment on Dune movie Re: eric ...!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!milo!eric > While we may not agree with the way Dune is presented in >the movies, one thing to remember is that Herbert was deeply >involved with the project, and is very happy with the result. This is not the first time I've heard this argument in defense of the movie's desecration of The Book, but if you think about it, you see that this is a weak defense indeed. Consider: Herbert has not written a good book since Dune (nor, in my opinion, has he EVER written a good book, with the exception of Dune.) "Heretics of Dune"? "The White Plague"? It is to laugh! Herbert is perhaps the LEAST qualified person to oversee the integrity of the movie translation. Now, if the movie had been made right after Herbert had finished the book oh-so-many years ago, then maybe ... but now, no way. Perry ------------------------------ Date: 8 Oct 84 17:40:45-PDT (Mon) From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-mrvax!ddb @ From: Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Upcoming Dune movie, Herbert's involvement Yes, Frank Herbert is involved in the Dune movie, and yes, he is happy about it. But I'm not happy about the other Dune books he's done (say, the last three), and I'm not particularly happy about many of the other books he's done, so I don't find his happiness to be that comforting. -- David Dyer-Bennet -- ...!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-mrvax!ddb ------------------------------ Date: 8 Oct 84 7:33:31-PDT (Mon) From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!pegasus!hocsj!ecl @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: TALES FROM THE DARKSIDE TALES FROM THE DARKSIDE A film review by Mark R. Leeper TALES FROM THE DARKSIDE is an anthology series produced by George Romero (of NIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD fame). It is syndicated to any local station who wants to fill a half hour here and there. It had a shaky but interesting pilot about a year ago, with an episode entitled "Trick or Treat." This time around the series opener is called "I'll Give a Million." I expected it to leave me yearning for the old TWILIGHT ZONEs I grew up with. Well, the story might have been better compared to Alfred Hitchcock's old half-hour show--it's more his style--but I'll give "I'll Give a Million" is a better story than most of Rod Serling's fare. It concerns two wealthy, ruthless old codgers--a la TRADING PLACES--who have been pulling shady deals for a long time. Unexpectedly, one offers the other one million dollars for his soul. Since neither is particularly religious, it sounds like a good deal. Or is it? Well, what can I tell you? I used to call TALES OF THE UNEXPECTED "Tales of the Totally Predictable" but this story did keep me guessing what was going on. There is something I like a lot about the last five minutes or so, but to say anything about it would rule out one or more of about five or six possible courses for the plot. I don't want to do that so somebody (please!) who has seen it, talk (write) to me about it so I can tell you what I liked. Nice going, Mr. Romero. Nice touch at the end. It shows you are more than just a horror story fan. (Evelyn C. Leeper for) Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!lznv!mrl ------------------------------ Date: Tue 9 Oct 84 14:07:24-EDT From: Rob Austein Subject: Star Trek Re: "The Menagerie" (Star Trek): it was the first pilot, not the second. James R. Kirk was Captain in the second pilot, which was indeed "Where No Man Has Gone Before". Spock was the only character in both pilots, and in "Menagerie" (originally called "The Cage") he was highly emotional and had RED skin (I don't remember if he was called a Vulcan, a Martian, or unspecified pointy-eared token alien). -- Rob ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 15-Oct SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #186 Date: 15 Oct 84 1150-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #186 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 15 Oct 84 1150-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #186 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 15 Oct 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 186 Today's Topics: Books - Brunner & Delany & Herbert & Saxon (3 msgs) & Zelazney, Films - The Day the Earth Stood Still & Red Sonja & Buckaroo Banzai (2 msgs), Television - The Twilight Zone & V & Star Trek (5 msgs), Video - Barbarella ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Oct 84 06:39:05 PDT (Friday) Subject: SF story concerning computers To: From: Jeff Hodges Laurence - A SF book concerning computers you may enjoy is John Brunner's "Shockwave Rider". It is set in the USA in the near future. The nation is wired together by a huge, pervasive computer network. Everyone has access to the net, and everyone's life is highly affected by the information maintained about them by the 'net' (the existence of monstrous databases and machines is hinted about, but never really explained). Brunner's understanding of computers and networks is pretty accurate. He introduces the idea of 'worm' programs. A worm is a distributed program that propogates itself across the network, while accomplishing whatever job it was designed to do. A paper I read (in ACM or IEEE journal) a few years ago, authored at PARC and concerning experimentation with 'worms', was the impetus to read "Shockwave Rider". The authors of the paper indicate (in the paper) Brunner's book was where they got their ideas. They did succeed in writing a 'worm', as I recall. You may enjoy this book more than 'Valentina' (no promises). Anyone know when 'Zardoz' will be comming back to the BayArea? -Jeff- ------------------------------ Date: 12 Oct 84 09:15:40 PDT (Friday) From: Hoffman.es@XEROX.ARPA Subject: STARBOARD WINE by Delany I'm trying to find 'Starboard Wine' by Samuel R. Delany. I have seen a couple of written mentions of it, but I can find out no more. I'm not even sure whether it is fiction or non-fiction. Two knowledgeable bookstores find no help in 'Starmont: Delany', 'SF Writers', '20th Century SF Writers', 'Encyclopedia of SF', 'Welles Index', or 'The Delany Intersection'. Any leads are greatly appreciated. --Rodney Hoffman ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 84 22:46:28 PDT From: kalash%ucbingres@Berkeley (Joe Kalash) Subject: Herbert, and his other good book > Consider: Herbert has not written a good book since Dune (nor, in > my opinion, has he EVER written a good book, with the exception of > Dune.) Then you must never have read "Under Pressure" (also known as "21st Century Sub", and "Dragon in the Sea"). While I agree that most of Herbert's writting can be ignored, he DOES have two first rate books. Joe Kalash kalash@berkeley ucbvax!kalash ------------------------------ Date: 11 Oct 1984 1123 PDT From: Alvin Wong Subject: Hieros Gamos of Sam and An Smith "Hieros gamos" is greek meaning marriage. I read the book long ago so my memory is hazy too. I was holding back a few of my "clues" to see if anyone else had interpreted them differently. I seem to remember a parrot in one part of the story saying "Time is the prime subjective" or something to that effect. I believe Sam was a 11-15 when he first saw An. An was around that age when she became his wife. This is one book that remains a mystery to me. The reviews for it were good but they all side stepped the issue of explaining the book. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 84 16:01:56 EDT From: Stephen Miklos Subject: [csi!miklos: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #184] From: DALTON FHL (on ERCC DEC-10) Date: Wednesday, 10-Oct-84 10:48:18-BST Subject: The Hieros Gamos of Sam and An Smith ...It would help, or at least I hope it would, to know what "hieros gamos" means... Sacred marriage (Holy Matrimony, batman!!) From the trusty Greek Dictionary of Stephen J. Miklos ------------------------------ Date: Mon 15 Oct 84 02:49:15-CDT From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA Subject: "Hieros Gamos" Check with someone who really knows Greek for a better translation, but from etymologically related words in English (hieroglyphic, hierarchy, hierophont; monogamy, polygamy) I'd guess might mean "priestly [holy? sacred?] marriage". ------------------------------ Date: 14 Oct 1984 13:15 EDT (Sun) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" To: Rob Austein Subject: Amber Supposedly, Zelazny has signed to write 3 more Amber stories. He was quoted as saying that, "the stories will not continue from where Courts of Chaos left off. They will occur later in time, and will not necessarily involve the same characters, although characters from the first series will appear from time to time." I don't think I've remembered that quote 100% accurately, but that's the gist of it anyway. ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 11 Oct 1984 09:55-EDT From: wesm@Mitre-Bedford Subject: movie remakes I can't believe that they are planning a remake of "The Day the Earth Stood Still". I can't imagine what they will do to it. They made a remake of "The Thing", which did try to follow the short story by John W. Campbell, Jr. as far as the plot was concerned (even if they did go overboard with the horror crap!). The original story that TDTEST was based on was "Farewell to the Master" by Harry Bates, which, though interesting, had nothing to do with the movie version, except for Klaatu and Gort (who was Gnut in the story). Besides this being one of my favorite SF movies (even though I don't like the way they ended it) I can't see how they can improve on it with a remake. They might try to razzle-dazzle us with special effects, but that is not what it's all about! It would probably ruin it. They can't follow the original story, as they did with "The Thing", it doesn't have what it takes to make it. With all the good SF out there, why do they have to do remakes? Look at the super job they did with "Lathe of Heaven"! We need more NEW works, no rehashes. What was so terrific about TDTEST was it was a period film. It played on the sentiments and feeling of the cold war times. The same premise today would be laughed at. "Gort, Klaatu berada nickto!" wesm@mitre-bedford ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Oct 84 11:53 EDT From: Winston B. Edmond Subject: Re: Red Sonja A couple years ago I saw the rumor that a Red Sonja movie was going to be made, but it's been so long I figured the idea had been dropped. Are you sure that Conan appears in the movie? Red Sonja and Conan were supposed to be contemporaries, but what little I remember of the original announcement indicated it was a movie about her, not her and Conan. -WBE ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Oct 84 19:54:38 edt From: mar@mit-borax (Mark A. Rosenstein) Subject: Buckaroo Banzai Has anyone seen the soundtrack for Buckaroo Banzai anywhere, particularly in the Boston area? The movie finally seems to be getting a following, it was sold out here in one theatre and almost at the other one it was showing at. Are we just crazy, or are there other people out there going around quoting the movie all of the time? -Mark "John Beluga is dead, he fell on his head." -John Kent ------------------------------ Date: 14 October 1984 20:20-EDT From: John G. Aspinall Subject: Buckaroo Banzai and Repo Man - weird and REALLY INTENSE WEIRD Within the past week I saw "Buckaroo Banzai" and "Repo Man". I had high hopes for Buckaroo Banzai. I've read "The Crying of Lot 49", I enjoy conspiracy theories, I identify with the ideal of a "competent man" (a la Heinlein). I was looking forward to some interesting entertainment. But I was a little disappointed. While Buckaroo Banzai achieves a level of weirdness at times, the overall impression was that they could have done much more with the good ideas they had. The film resorted to physical chase scenes on the level of Starsky-and-Hutch mind-pablum too often instead of offering an intelligent, or humorous, or even, yes, weird solution to the protagonist's problems. If you want WEIRD, check out Repo Man. This story of a punk turned auto-repossesor (repo man) and his intersection with an old Chevy carrying alien material liberated from Los Alamos has the flavor that Banzai should've had. The running jokes that keep recurring through the movie give it a sustained humor. And it's got a better soundtrack too. John Aspinall. ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 10 Oct 1984 14:14-EDT From: wesm@Mitre-Bedford Subject: twilight zone I saw the shows in question last Friday on local uhf (they had nine hours of episodes that night). The 'guide' said that the shows on the special were never aired before, but I know for a fact that I saw the "Sounds of Silence" 'many moons ago'. Have all of these in fact been seen before? I was rather disappointed. wesm@mitre-b ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 1984 13:24:19-EDT From: Robert.Zimmermann@cmu-ee-faraday Subject: Invasion Of The Space Nazis NBC has announced that V (the whatever) is starting soon. I would like to propose the following point of netiquette: Whereas: 'V' has proven itself to be written by a bunch of mindless jerks who will be the first up against the wall when the revolution comes, and Whereas: Flaming about the above is a waste of time better spent picking lint off of a dog, and Whereas: Precedent already exists in the case of Light-Bulb_Jokes Be It Moved That: Henceforth, anyone posting messages about the series 'V' have his/her message returned without inclusion, and be forced to re-read the novelization of said series. Robert A Zimmermann (raz@cmu-ee-faraday) "Whose M-grams did you use doctor?" "Why my own, of course. I haven't lost my mind, I've got it backed up on tape" ------------------------------ Date: 11 Oct 84 18:44:46 EDT From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #184 The first episode was titled "The Cage", NOT "The Menagerie". Among the things that the networks didn't like were a female second-in-command and an alien. Roddenberry then got private funding and made "Where No Man Has Gone Before". The actor who played Pike was busy, so Shatner was given the part. Roddenberry wanted an alien, so Spock was kept (and Nimoy in the role). Gary Lockwood was given a part because the networks liked him. Roddenberry, not one to waste anything, later made "The Menagerie" by intercutting it with pieces from "The Cage". Quite a few years later he realized that the only color negative was cut up for use in "The Menagerie", so all that is left is black and white. And no, it doesnt seem to matter much to the story. llap ------------------------------ Date: 12 Oct 84 10:23:33 EDT From: TRUDEL@RU-BLUE.ARPA Subject: The Menagerie >"Spock was the only character in both pilots, and in "Menagerie" >(originally called "The Cage") he was highly emotional and had RED >skin (I don't remember if he was called a Vulcan, a Martian, or >unspecified pointy-eared token alien)." RED skin! I remember Star Trek well enough to know that Spock was white since the program's creation. The only colored person in the episode was the blue dancer in one of Pike's illusionary dreams. Also, although they did not use the character of Number One, Majel Barret later became Nurse Chapel (Something to do with her being married to Gene Roddenbery, I think). While I'm on the subject of Star Trek, I've got a great new game for you. Invite several friends over and see if you can guess what episode it is as soon as the show starts, even before they roll the titles. It's fast, it's fun, and can stir up debates among your friends as to the true nature of the plotline. Guess how many red shirts(security guards) buy it in the show. Figure out if Spock is going to get emotional enough to call Kirk "Jim." Also, take bets on whether or not Scotty can come up with a good excuse for why the ship doesn't work. You'll be amazed at how much you know, and how much you think you know. Unfortunately, I am one of those blessed (or cursed, depending on how you look at it) with the ability to know all about an episode within 30-40 seconds of the start, so I disqualify myself from playing when my friends and I get together. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Oct 1984 1725-GDT From: CCD-ARG (on Dundee Tech DEC20) Subject: Star Trek pilots > Re: "The Menagerie" (Star Trek): it was the first pilot, >not the second. James R. Kirk was Captain in the second pilot, >which was indeed "Where No Man Has Gone Before". Spock was the >only character in both pilots, and in "Menagerie" (originally >called "The Cage") he Yes "The Menagerie" was indeed based on the first pilot. I can only assume that I was suffering severe disconnection of brain neurons when I wrote it. Surely you mean James T Kirk ? Although Spock was the only character in both, he was not the only actor to appear as a regular later. 'Number One' was written out of the series but the actress then went on to play Nurse Christine Chapel. I seem to recall that Spock was actually the character the TV company least wanted to see survive ! Maybe someone could relate the story behind the two pilots better than the details I can remember ? Alan (Alan%Dct%ddxa@ucl-cs.arpa) ------------------------------ Date: Sun 14 Oct 84 19:41:43-EDT From: Janice Eisen Subject: Star Trek Spock was known as a "Vulcanian" in "The Cage." Although you will see old info about the show describing his skin as reddish, if you watch the portions reproduced in color in "The Menagerie," you will note no red coloring at all. What you will notice is that he smiles at some sort of vibrating plant -- they hadn't decided he was emotionless yet. You may also notice he is limping -- this is explained in the original pilot as the result of a battle on that planet where Pike later fantasizes saving Vina from that big, hairy, grunting savage. Janice Former (VERY former) Trekkie ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 84 19:45:59-PDT (Wed) From: hplabs!oliveb!tymix!figmo @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Star Trek Joke Have you heard the name of Star Trek IV? "YOU KLINGON SONS, YOU KILLED MY BASTARD!" --Lynn Gold {...hplabs!oliveb!tymix!figmo} ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 12 Oct 1984 10:08:10-PDT From: lionel%orphan.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Steve Lionel) Subject: Bring back Barbarella In a recent digest, LATZKO@RU-BLUE ended several movie reviews with the comment "Bring back Barbarella." Well, she's back, at least if you have a VCR. Barbarella is one of a number of videotapes being released soon at the bargain price of $23.50. Given some of the other titles in the list (Star Trek I and II), I think that these all may be from Universal. I'm looking forward to renting this - I saw it when it was first released, but realize that it has been cut some in the meantime. (Did you know that you can also get "Flesh Gordon" on videotape?) Steve Lionel ARPA: lionel%orphan.DEC@decwrl.ARPA UUCP: decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-orphan!lionel MCI: Steve Lionel (177-0623) "God is real unless declared integer." ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 18-Oct SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #187 Date: 18 Oct 84 1132-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #187 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Oct 84 1132-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #187 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 18 Oct 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 187 Today's Topics: Books - Herbert (2 msgs) & Mainstream Criticism, Films - Buckaroo Banzai (2 msgs) & Remakes, Television - The Twilight Zone, Video - Star Wars, Miscellaneous - Activities in the Rochester NY Area ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Monday, 15 Oct 1984 15:20:15-PDT From: redford%shorty.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (John Redford) Subject: flaws in "Dune" Regarding Greg Finnegan's defense of "Dune" and "The Integral Trees": I would actually fault "Dune" on more than just bad characterization. The planet of Arrakis is ridiculous from an ecological point of view. The main form of life on Arrakis is these sandworms: a kilometer long, a hundred meters in diameter, and powerful enough to push their way through sand. What do the sandworms live on? Bacteria that live in the sand, I guess. And what would the bacteria live on? Where do they get their energy? Sand is opaque to sunlight. Get more than a couple of millimeters into a sand dune and there is nothing to use for photosynthesis. No light, no energy, and so no life. The bottom of the ocean is sterile for the same reason, except for the critters that feed on the detritus that floats down from the surface. The surface of Dune is just rock and sand; hardly even any lichen. There isn't enough green matter to feed a snake, much less something with the energy needs of a sandworm. There's other silly stuff too, like the doctor with the unbreakable training for loyalty, who is broken by threats against his wife. A blackmailer will first try to threaten you, and then threaten your relations. "Damn, didn't think of that", the doctor's trainers no doubt muttered. The breeding program for the Kwisatz Haderach seems to be a cumbersome way to go about it. If you are looking for people who can see into the future, and know enough about the talent to know that it's linked to the Y chromosome (since only males have it), then, jeez, go in and modify the Y chromosome instead of monkeying about for 500 generations. If you've got starships and galactic empires a little genetic engineering can't be too tough. A more general complaint against Herbert is that manipulation is such a constant theme in his work. All of his characters are continually plotting against one another, trying to control one another. It gets tiresome after a while. You can only read so many pages about the detailed analysis of an eyebrow twitch. Why can't they just leave one another alone? But Herbert seems to accept manipulation as an inevitability. Paul Muad'dib can see the future, and so is the supreme manipulator, and so gets to be ruler of the galaxy. Why should anybody rule the galaxy? Why can't people rule themselves, or at least have some say in who rules them? Paul is supposed to be a hero, but Herbert forces him into becoming this religious tyrant. A real hero would overthrow the Emperor and then provide justice and liberty for all. Instead we get this young, handsome Ayatollah. Herbert seemed to like the idea, since he wrote five more books on the theme, with Paul becoming steadily more god-like. The plots become steadily more complex, the manipulations more devious. Quite a few readers stopped caring, but there are enough head-game fans out there to keep Herbert on the best-seller lists. John Redford ------------------------------ Date: 17 Oct 84 19:57:08 PDT (Wed) Subject: Re: Herbert, and his other good book From: Alastair Milne Second the motion for "Dragon in the Sea", which it still was when I first read it. I'm sorry to hear about the title "21st Century Sub"; it seems to me to miss the point. I also want to suggest "The Dosadi Experiment" as a powerful story (I regret I have not read the one before it, "Whipping Star"). Though only moderate on characterisations, it has all of Herbert's talent for complex intrigues and hidden motivations, all bound up in alien cultures. I also found the details of the Gowachin legal system fascinating, if very uncomfortable. To refer to what started this debate, in the case of the Dune movie, I hardly think it matters how well (or poorly) Herbert has succeeded with his other books. His position as the creator of the Dune world is what makes his opinion on the movie valuable. If he feels that it states adequately on the screen what he wanted to say in the book, knowing better than anybody else can just what the book is trying to say, then I for one feel encouraged about the movie. (Of course, if you hold the opinion that the creator of a work is simply its starting point, and that it grows from there through the interpretations of its audience, then the above is not necessarily true. I don't hold that opinion personally, so I defer further discussion to people who do.) As for financial persuasions, Herbert is not one of the struggling writers who must, for practical reasons, let money take precedence over art. He is widely published, with a number of well-known books. He has worked in a broad range of fields and gained a number of qualifications. And I know of at least one precedent, in the case of Paddy Cheyevsky, for an author's refusing the fruits of a disagreeable modification of his work (in fact, in Cheyevsky's case, disowning the modification entirely). So although the possibility exists that he is simply contributing to the lining of his own pocket, I think the probability is comfortably low. A. Milne UC Irvine ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 17 Oct 1984 10:09:46-PDT From: redford%shorty.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (John Redford) Subject: Mainstream criticism Has anyone else noticed how misguided mainstream book reviewers are with regard to science fiction? Most of them ignore it completely of course, but even the ones that do pay attention seem to have no idea what is going on. They will heap praise on someone like Doris Lessing, who uses the most heavy-handed symbolism and cliched settings, and ignore someone like C. J. Cherryh, who has been writing the most consistently interesting stuff of the last five years. They think that Stanislaw Lem or Jorge Luis Borges are the pinnacle of SF achievement. Certainly these are good authors, but they are way outside the normal channels of SF. "Dhalgren" got a lot of attention from the mainstream, but most fans found it unreadable. Are the mainstream people simply stupid? Possibly, since most of them live in the inbred culture of Manhattan. Manhattan itself is so hard on the nerves, and so much advertising and television has come from there that perhaps it does deaden its inhabitants. But I have another theory. When outsiders read science fiction, I think they read it as allegory. All these exotic settings and adventures are just symbols for things in present day life. A story about running out of oxygen on Mars is no different to them than one about running out of water in the Sahara. Mars is just another locale, like medieval France would be in a historical romance. Doris Lessings' books are called the the Canopus Archives series. Canopus is a very bright and therefore short-lived star and so would not have habitable planets. But if you pointed that out to them, they would say "Look, she's trying to talk about racism and relations between the sexes and here you are bringing in astrophysics." But to us, the fans, the excitement of science fiction is that IT ACTUALLY MIGHT HAPPEN THIS WAY. There actually might be galactic civilizations out there, and they are not likely to be based on Canopus. The aliens are not likely to be Lessings' humanoids, and if they have problems between their sexes, it's because it's hard to arrange for all 23 sexes to be in one place at one time. We want to know what it would really be like to live on Mars, to meet aliens, or to travel through time. It may sound paradoxical, but the attraction of science fiction is that it does have this hold on reality. If anything can happen, then why should one care about anything that does? That's why the fans gave up on "Dhalgren". Here was this guy in a surreal city with incomprehensible things happening to him. The mainstream critics read "Dhalgren" as a metaphor for all city life. SF fans kept hoping to find out what was going on. Well, that wasn't the point. Delany was saying that you never do find out, that life is just a series of episodes with no climax and no conclusion. Modernists love that kind of stuff. Half of Stanislaw Lem's books have the same theme. SF fans, though, have a yearn to KNOW, and feel cheated when nothing is resolved. The mainstream is willing to give up verisimilitude for literary style, and we are not. John Redford P.S. And what did you think of the rumbling spaceships in "Star Wars"? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 1984 12:36:25 EDT From: Macintosh Devaluation Manager Subject: Buckaroo Banzai meets the Big Apple Buckaroo Banzai does, indeed, exist up in the Big Apple; right now, it's playing at both the D.W.Griffith and Murray Hill theatres. The "New Yorker" magazine, darling of us East Coast intellectual types, did a lengthy review of the movie in the 8/20 issue, and is using the following capsule review in its 'In Brief' section while it's still at the local theatres: Making his debut as a director, W. D. (Dick) Richter doesn't bring out the baroque lunacy of the material -- a kind of fermented parody of "M*A*S*H," "Star Wars," "Raiders of the Lost Ark," and the TV series "The A-Team" -- but though the characters don't develop and the laughs don't build or come together, the film's uninflected deadpan tone is somehow likable. Dr. Buckaroo Banzai (Peter Weller), the half-Japanese, half-American hero, is a neurosurgeon, a physicist, a jet-car racer (who goes right through a mountain), and the leader of the Team Banzai -- seven dapper whiz-bang Renaissance men. For relaxation, Buckaroo and a few of the others have formed their own rock group, the Hong Kong Cavaliers, and it's at a Cavaliers performance in a New Jersey night spot that the hypersensitive Buckaroo picks up the disturbed vibes of someone in the audience; that's how he meets the heroine, Penny Priddy (Ellen Barkin). Richter and the scriptwriter, Earl Mac Rauch, don't seem to have an angle of vision on the interplanetary fantasy world they present; what they've got is an unmoored hipsterism and a lot of inventiveness. As Dr. Lizardo, the mad-genius villain (a comic-strip mixture of Eisenstein, Klaus Kinski, and a Wagnerian tenor), John Lithgow gives the movie the anchor it needs. White-faced, with bloodshot eyes, dark, greenish teeth, and a wild foreign accent, Lithgow's Dr. Lizardo can make you crazy with happiness. With Jeff Goldblum, Matt Clark as the Secretary of Defense, Carl Lumbly as the friendly alien who disguises himself as a Rastafarian, Christopher Lloyd, Vincent Schiavelli, Rosalind Cash, Ronald Lacey, and the platinum-blond Lewis Smith. The picture's visual style helps to compensate for the absence of directorial style; the production designer was J. Micheal Riva. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Oct 84 09:07:16 PDT (Wednesday) From: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA Subject: More Banzaroo Buckeye Will Buckaroo Banzai make enough of a profit to justify sequels? Will Marvel (or is it DC?) continue to publish the comic book? Will Mac Rauch write more BB novels? Stay tuned til next week, same Banzai time, same Banzai channel ... Seriously, I was wondering if any of you out there could resolve a disagreement between Commander T'Lydown and myself: did Mac Rauch (author of "Buckaroo Banzai Across the 8th Dimension" the novel, and given "Written By" credit in the movie) write the movie first, or the novel? Or were they created simultaneously? In fact, any information on the genesis of the BB project (not the character, which is fairly well explained in the novel) would be greatly appreciated. Please, no speculation (unless it's an educated guess). I'd like some cold hard facts. Pointers to documentation (written or otherwise) would be just as useful. "Massacre a'them, and give a'them not a quarter!" "The clock, she is a'ticking!" "BUT WHY ME, JOHN BIGBOOTE?" "IT MIGHT BE BOOBYTRAPPED!" "OH..." Perry ------------------------------ Date: Wed 17 Oct 84 12:31:37-EDT From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: Remakes Will they remake The Day The Earth Stood Still? Of course they will! After all, they remade Lost Horizon into a musical; they remade The Blue Lagoon into a skin flick; they even remade King Kong into a hairy horrible DISASTER. There is NO limit to the utter nerdishness of these people. ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 17 Oct 1984 07:28:03-PDT From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: Re: twilight zone, the anniversary special In the Boston area, the special was aired on Channel 38, followed by - get this! - SEVEN SOLID HOURS of favorite TZ episodes. The on-camera announcer for Ch. 38 said several times that the three episodes they ran as the "special" had never been SYNDICATED before. This statement is a lot different from "never aired before." Cheers, Dick Binder ("Beware the Jabberwock, my son!") ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 84 19:12:40-PDT (Wed) From: hplabs!oliveb!tymix!figmo @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: rotj and tesb videocassettes wanted "The Empire Strikes Back" is supposed to be out on videocassette and laserdisk around Christmas. Some video stores are already taking orders (I have mine in!). --Lynn ------------------------------ Date: 8 Oct 84 14:14 EDT From: Denber.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Rochester SF Film/Video It's looking like a promising autumn for SF film lovers in the Rochester area. The Dryden Theater has several SF movies scheduled in its current series, including THX-1138 (last week), Little Shop of Horrors, and one more I forget (I don't have the catalog here). For those who may not know, the Dryden is located in the Eastman House, aka. the George Eastman International Museum of Photography. They regularly assemble film series on various themes often showing rare and unusual movies from their archives, including some on nitrate stock (!). Also, channel 31 WUHF will be showing 11 Twilight Zones in a row starting at 9 PM, Friday, November 2nd (crank up your VCR's). Included will be three rarely seen episodes (due to legal problems, according to the newspaper) "A Short Drink from a Certain Fountain", with Patrick O'Neal and Ruta Lee, 1963; "Sounds and Silences", with John McGiver, 1964; and "Miniatures" with Robert Duvall, 1963. "Miniatures" is to be shown using a computer-controlled coloring process developed by Viacom Industries. The paper says they digitize each frame and assign colors to every object in the scene. The computer then colors each object and tracks it from frame to frame, coloring subsequent frames automatically (that's what they said). This I have to see. Finally, the Little Theater is showing Metropolis (the rock music version). Enjoy! - Michel ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 22-Oct SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #188 Date: 22 Oct 84 1252-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #188 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 22 Oct 84 1252-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #188 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 22 Oct 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 188 Today's Topics: Administrivia - Returned Messages, Books - Herbert (5 msgs) & Worms & Mainstream Criticism (2 msgs), Films - Remakes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Oct 84 12:17:45 EDT From: Saul Subject: Returned messages It seems that all the unemployed gremlins have somehow gotten into the mailer system. Many people have been complaining that messages to SFLOVERS@RUTGERS have been returned for some reason by the mailer. If you will look closely at the messages you will probably note that the address that is being rejected is SF-LOVERS-USENET@SRI-UNIX. This is our connection to the Usenet and net.sf. Have no fear folks, your messages are getting through to me and will be put into digests as soon as I can. Where your messages are NOT going is to net.sf although messages FROM there are being received. Apparently SRI-UNIX is doing some hardware switching and we got lost in the shuffle. I have someone looking into it and hopefully the problem will resolved within a week. If not I plan to sit down with my copy of the Necronomicon and whip up a demon or two to "fix" things for us.... Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) ------------------------------ Date: Thu Oct 18 19:24:41 1984 From: mclure@sri-unix Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #187 I found digest V9 #187 quite depressing. John Redford has completely deflated one of my favorite books, DUNE. I reread DUNE every couple years and am always pleased that its complexity of dialogue, description, plot, etc., are always interesting yet another time. Now, I don't know. I think we can all find unrealistic things in most major SF works, but why point them out? They just spoil it for those of us who hadn't noticed them. I hope John will spare us any further comments on major works. These are not meant to be scientific journal articles, you know. Stuart ------------------------------ Date: 12 Oct 84 10:35:16-PDT (Fri) From: hplabs!zehntel!ihnp4!inuxc!inuxd!arlan @ Ucb-Vax.arpa Subject: Re: Comment on Dune movie Perhaps, if John W. Campbell, Jr., were still around to make suggestions as I understand that he did on the original DUNE books, there would be more satisfaction with Herbert's satisfaction? ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 19 Oct 1984 09:44:05-PDT From: feldman%nexus.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: DUNE FLAMING In issue 187, John Redford attacked Herbert's Dune on story content and on the plausability of the ecological background. While most of his points about the story were correct, he should stay away from analyzing the ecology. Anyone who has opened up a septic tank can tell you that bacteria don't need light or for that matter oxygen to do quite well thank you. And as for a large creature existing on small organisms, all you have to do is look in our seas for an example of that. Herbert's "hobby" is ecology and he manages to use it as a sub-theme in many of his books. As for the Bene Geserit breeding program, remember the Butlerian Jihad would of inhibited them from using the necessary equipment to use genetic engineering. I agree that the continual plot within a plot can get tedius and in the books that followed Dune, Herbert raised that to an art form that few readers appreciated. The Dosadi Experiment I think was his best balance of involuted plot and action. As for having Herbert's "seal of approval" on Dune, the movie, the only seal I'm interested in is my own and I think he wants another fish so....... "F L A M E O N" Jim Feldman ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Oct 84 15:13 EDT From: schneider.WBST@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: Redford: Flaws in "Dune" To open this, I'll state what I believe is the definition of SF in general: *Fiction dealing with the future, including events made possible only by advances in technology.* But the drawing card for SF lovers is its open speculation of the future, with few holds barred. Since this leaves the imagination to run rampant, only gross flaws in known science or continuity of the story line can ruin the concept, bad writing can ruin the story. The nits at which you pick hardly makes "Dune" a poor characterization. F'instance- The ecology of Dune: nuts, we don't even understand our own that well! Certain whales eat nothing but plankton, and it doesn't take much imagination to believe a story with sand whales, plankton, and everything else that goes along. If Herbert were to go into such trivial detail, explaining every aspect, he'd never have published the book, it would have collapsed from it own mass. Loyality training: many persons, myself included, take physical risks without much concern for themselves. But threaten harm on my family!, that's a different matter, I'd become very worried, perhaps paranoid, and the emotional stress would become quite severe. It's an obvious thing to do. In fact, terrorists do it all the time. Breeding of humans: recall that Herbert's society refuses to use computers, instead using mentats, and new technology is shunned- only the Scythians experiment with it, and all their "products" are sold underground. Does the technology have to exist? The Chinese had gunpowder for years before a European invented the firearm. Accept the premise, it has factual basis, and is necessary for the plot. Or, write a book. Herbert' theme: Anyone remember the old saw "ultimate power corrupts ultimately?" From Julius Ceasar thru George Washington to Dick Nixon, history rubs our noses in it. Not that the hero always asks for it- Washington refused a third presidential term after suggestions were made that he should be made king. The "hero rescues princess and sets up utopian libertarian society" theme is a gross oversimplification that made Star Wars so enjoyable to so many, after a hard day on the job, it's a complete escape from reality. In the real world, heroes are often forced by circumstance to do things they would rather not. And manipulation is a constant fact of life. If this were not true, books such as "Dress for Success," "The 60 Second Manager," etc., would not be so popular. In all, I found "Dune" very enjoyable- intriguing and believeable. It could make a good movie. To enjoy SF in general, one must remember- this is the author's world, not your own. And he writes the rules. Does anyone remember Lazarus Long's defination of a critic? endofflame-regards-zot ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Oct 1984 16:30 EDT From: ASP%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: redford%shorty.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (John Redford) Subject: flaws in "Dune" Dammit. Dune was FANTASY, and anyone reading it should know better than to criticize it for ecological errors. You do raise a few good points, though: (1) Breeding vs. Engineering. The Tleilaxu (implicitly) had considerable genetic engineering ability. They couldn't make a Kwisatz Haderach. Dune makes a very strong distinction between mechanistic technology (Ix, the computers purged by the Butlerian jihad, the Guild) and artful use of the world around you (the Bene Gesserit, the Fremen). Having the Bene Gesserit go out and engineer their prophet, or even the possibility of their doing so, would destroy this basic theme. (2) Manipulation vs. "Freedom". Again, another juxtaposition. The big manipulators are principally represented among the evil or ambiguous characters (the Baron, particularly in his incarnation in Alia; the Sisterhood). Characters such as the old Duke or Paul Atreides are merely *aware* of the manipulation; they do not engage in it themselves. The Fremen do not practice it at all. In the end, it is the Fremen, whose principal trait is their openness, who defeat the agents of the Emperor, and it is this tradition that Muad'Dib represents. Of course, these themes vanish, for the most part, after the first book. It is a pity that Herbert's volumes of cheap suspense (Hellstrom's Hive, the BuSab books) overwhelmed the force of the (ecologically ridiculous) world he created. --Jim ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Oct 84 23:18:50 EDT From: Michael_D'Alessandro%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARP From: A Subject: Worms & Shockwave Rider In a message about Shockwave Rider by John Brunner, mention was made by HODGES.PA@XEROX.ARPA of a paper in an ACM or IEEE journal about worms. Does anyone know the journal and issue the article was in? In general, I'd be interested in hearing about articles in the literature about worms. Michael D'Alessandro Dept. of Computer Science Wayne State University Michael_D'Alessandro%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-Multics.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Oct 84 01:43:44 mdt From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley) Subject: Re: Mainstream criticism I agree with John Redford's point that mainstream reviewers unfairly ignore genre sf, but I think he falls into overgeneralization when he begins to discuss the reasons why this occurs. People who read just genre sf become a bit limited in their thinking. The point I want to make is not 'Gee, you should read at least one mainstream book for every sf book or else your brain will become peach cobbler' -- rather, it's that sf is not by any means the only genre which mainstream reviewers ignore. There are all kinds of genre devotees; the world is not divided into us (sf) and them (mainstream). My father, for example, is a Western addict. Occasionally he finds a really good book and lends it to me. A really good WESTERN? You're kidding, right? Everyone knows that Westerns are unreadable; after all, none of them are ever good enough to be reviewed in major magazines... But to my amazement, my father finds them, and their quality is that much more obvious for its being unexpected. So why aren't I posting to western-lovers, you cynically ask? The truth is, I do have a special affection for sf -- but I try not to let this be an infatuation. People who read only one kind of fiction eventually end up without the imagination to appreciate why someone else's tastes differ. This is as true of 'mainstream' devotees as it is of sf fans. Worse, this leads to a kind of false nationalism: if the other side likes this book, surely it can't be worth reading. If you take seriously remarks like, 'Are the mainstream people simply stupid?', then you risk slipping into the worst sort of jingoism. John Redford's comments on Lem and Borges are telling. (Beware! Advance warning -- I may be the biggest Lem fan and probably one of the top 10 Borges fans in Salt Lake County.) Just because the establishment 'approves' of these writers doesn't mean that their works aren't sf. Upon reading the Newsweek review of Lem's latest book to be translated into English, IMAGINARY MAGNITUDE (I have a copy but I haven't read it yet; a review will come later), I get the feeling that at least some 'mainstream' reviewers completely miss the central expressions and themes of Lem's work. John's comments ('Half of Stanislaw Lem's books have the same theme') lead me to suspect that he has missed the boat, too. I can't imagine how John managed to get the idea that Lem is a proponent of world-weary nihilism -- this attitude runs completely contrary to everything I've ever read in Lem. It's true that Lem is often subtle and devious (as in one of my absolute favorite novels, THE INVESTIGATION), but how can anyone criticize exhilaratingly playful works like THE CYBERIAD as being reducible to modernist allegory? John Redford knocks Doris Lessing for not paying attention to astrophysics. I've never read any of Lessing's books, so I have no opinion about them; but I do have an opinion about the sort of qualm which John voices, namely that it's silly. 'Real' scientists don't read sf for precisely the reason that it doesn't pay enough attention to science. They notice so many boners while reading a story that they can't maintain their interest. In addition to the problems with scientific 'accuracy', many stories don't seem to expend any effort to strive for psychological or sociological verisimilitude. It strikes me that unbelievable plot or characterization is just as distracting as unbelievable science. My favorite kind of sf story is one that so overwhelms me with consistency and detail, with the clarity of its vision, that I can BE there, in the story. If some element of the story is somewhat bogus, I can often be convinced to play along if everything else fits together nicely. The fact that a book (or movie :-) seems to accept that explosions in vacuum are audible doesn't make me immediately say, 'Well, that's another five bucks down the toilet...' How do other people feel? Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ Date: 19 Oct 84 10:51:32 PDT (Friday) Subject: Re: Mainstream criticism From: Colvin.PA@XEROX.ARPA In John Redford's message he says > "When outsiders read science fiction, I think they read it as > allegory. All these exotic settings and adventures are just > symbols for things in present day life ........But to us, the > fans, the excitement of science fiction is that IT ACTUALLY MIGHT > HAPPEN THIS WAY." I disagree with this and think that just the opposite is true. Good Science Fiction typically presents a world or environment which is very different from our own, but which causes us to relate it and compare it to our own world and environment, thus giving us a different perspective upon which to look at our present world. Much SF does not even pretend that "IT ACTUALLY MIGHT HAPPEN THIS WAY" and some portray it as already having happened. Yet even these can cause us to look at our own world in comparision with the one being described. This different perspective is what the mainstream critics are looking at, and what makes good Science Fiction good. -- Craig ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 19 Oct 1984 05:27:44-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Jerry Boyajian) Subject: re: Remakes > From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA > Will they remake The Day The Earth Stood Still? > > Of course they will! After all, they remade Lost Horizon into a > musical; they remade The Blue Lagoon into a skin flick; they even > remade King Kong into a hairy horrible DISASTER. > > There is NO limit to the utter nerdishness of these people. On the other hand, the remakes of both THE THING and INVASION OF THE BODY SNATCHERS were, in their own ways, reasonably good (and different) movies. Some later versions of DRACULA are better (in my opinion) than the Tod Browning film. And (to go slightly off the sf track) there had been a few earlier film versions of THE THREE MUSKETEERS than Richard Lester's, but his two films are, as far as I'm concerned, the best costume-drama/adventure films ever made. And the John Huston/Humphrey Bogart THE MALTESE FALCON was also a remake. And don't forget GREYSTOKE, which despite its faults, is better than most of the many previous Tarzan movies. While I question the need for a remake of THE DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL, it's quite possible that with some creative people in control, it could turn out to be a decent product. Let's not rant and rave about "them" until we find out who "they" are. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}! decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 22-Oct SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #189 Date: 22 Oct 84 1323-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #189 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 22 Oct 84 1323-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #189 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 23 Oct 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 189 Today's Topics: Books - Herbert (2 msgs) & The Talisman, Films - Buckaroo Banzai (3 msgs), Television - SF Commercial & V (2 msgs), Videos - Barbarella ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 19 Oct 84 19:55:33 edt From: csin!cjh@cca-unix Subject: dragons; Herbert In a belated response to the "dragonlady" asking for stories about dragons, I recommend THE SLEEPING DRAGON and THE SWORD AND THE CHAIN, Joel Rosenberg's first and second books. The dragon is not central, but a source of much of the plot. Much grittier (and to an Anachronist, much more true-to-life) than most fantasies. John Redford asks why the Bene Gesserit didn't go in for direct genetic manipulation. Two answers: (1) \\Nobody// had suggested a plausible form of what we now call genetic manipulation (i.e., actually cutting and pasting chromosomes) in SF when DUNE was written, and I don't think anybody had suggested it outside of (possibly) extremely technical journals (Damon Knight put chromosomes in a solution that swells them to a manageable size, but this is in a near-fantasy context and only for plants). Herbert's imagination can be faulted here, but only mildly. (2) Manipulations such as Heinlein described in BEYOND THIS HORIZON (test-tube fertilization using inferred-"best" sperm and ova) are presently more than many churchmen can stomach. Given the religious prohibition to computers in DUNE, why should direct manipulation be tolerated? I would point out in contrast to JR's increasing dislike (which parallels my own) of this series that a local biologist/cynic/fan has become increasingly fascinated with the philosophical concept of the ruler as a deliberate, race-improving predator Herbert has been dealing with (no, the fan is not a eugenicist or a Wilsonian). ------------------------------ From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Date: 22 Oct 84 8:42:26 EDT Subject: Dune bugs Gawrsh! You mean it's legal to criticize Dune and Dhalgren? Bout time...I pushed my way through Dune when it first appeared (I was 17) and read it again ten years later. The bugs were still there, as was the pompous, agonizing self-importance of it all. Herbert, who claims to be an ecologist, may be the biggest phony in the business. For example: 1) The worms would not only starve to death, they would collapse under their own weight. Even if they were considerably less dense than water (which seems unlikely given the descriptions in the books) their mass would be unable to support itself. As oceanlife, no sweat. Futzing about a desert, nossir, I don't buy it. 2) Less clear-cut but worth discussing is the notion that any ecology must have a certain critical mass of living species to sustain itself. Biologist Barry Gehm dismissed Dune as an ecology story because "it's an ecology with three moving parts." Where's the rest of the food chain? 3) We are now on the verge of being able to terraform whole planets. I find it hard to accept that a human culture capable of interstellar flight would live on such an arid rockball without remaking it to their own tastes. Virtually all stellar systems are likely to have comet haloes even if there is no water-rich planet or moon in the system. Diverting a few dozen comets to impact on Dune should be a cinch. Herbert, who claims such insight into human nature, should accept that the human desire for comfort would render Dune either Earthlike in short order or abandoned as more trouble than it's worth. 4) The geriatric spice (as I have said here before) is so important that it will be synthesized, atom by atom if need be, on every world where humans live. Once we crack FTL travel (as a measure of engineering accomplsihment) NOTHING in the universe will be found in Only One Place. Especially something so crucial as a chemical which wards off death. One would assume that a man who claims to be an expert on ecology would have thought of these hassles, any of which would wound the Dune concept's viability, and all of which taken together prove the man either knows diddle about ecology (which was a hot buzzword when the book was written) or he's been putting us on for fifteen years and really doesn't give a damn. --Jeff Duntemann duntemann.wbst@xerox The Misch Metal Rat ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 84 18:01:59 mdt From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley) Subject: A review of THE TALISMAN by Stephen King and Peter Straub THE TALISMAN. Stephen King and Peter Straub. Viking, 1984 (hardcover). Non-spoiler review: A good read but not the best work of either author. Micro-spoiler review: This is a fantasy novel written by two horror authors. While the fantasy setting is interesting, more loving attention is given to grue than to developing the background or the characters, which is a pity. The story revolves around a boy of 12 named Jack Sawyer, who discovers that his late father's mysterious disappearances had a reason: he could transfer himself into a parallel universe called the Territories, which contains analogues of people and events in our universe but works by different, magical principles. Jack is drawn into the Territories on a quest to recover the Talisman, a magical object of terrible power and significance. In places the book is tender and funny, but unfortunately it dwells too long on situations that are meant to be frightening but don't advance the plot or even fill in the setting. The book creates some stiff competition for itself by making analogies to THE LORD OF THE RINGS, TOM SAWYER and HUCKLEBERRY FINN, and perhaps Zelazny's Amber series, and I don't think it lives up to its promise. The collaboration between King and Straub is seamless, as far as the prose is concerned; only the occasional parenthetical remark in italics (King) or a Lovecraftian horror (Straub) reminds you that two people wrote this book. Mini-spoiler review: Although the two universes themselves are a bit sketchy, King and Straub do have a lot of fun with the interface between the worlds. The 'sympathy' between the universes brings constant surprises, and a number of curious consequences are worked out; the most interesting is the idea that the frightening and unexplainable events that are the usual subject of horror novels are in fact the result of the interpenetration of our universe with the Territories. (The reverse may also be true, of course: scary things in the Territories may be the result of invasions from our universe!) For example, Jack meets a friend in the Territories who is good-natured, not too bright, and has animal characteristics (paws for feet, thick body hair, etc.); on introduction to our universe, the friend turns out to be a werewolf... The contrast between the universes also makes for some very funny scenes. There should be a word for this technique (like anachronism but referring to different cultures) but I can't think of it... I won't give these away, you'll have to discover them for yourself. King's touch for characters is evident in a number of places, too, and this makes for some nicely realistic situations. Some of the scary scenes are really scary, and the climax (although it lacks some coherence) is exciting. But the book as a whole seems flat and occasionally a bit staged. Some of the flatness comes from the feeling that this is exclusively a boys' book; the curious family arrangements of the main characters are present in order to make a simplistic thematic statement. While simplicity is not always bad (and can be popular: witness Spielberg's movies (I hear that Spielberg has optioned THE TALISMAN)), I think this novel could have been more interesting if it had followed up some of its complications. For example, the idea is mentioned that the Territories have their own parallel universe behind them, but this is never really followed up. And despite the references to TOM SAWYER and HUCKLEBERRY FINN, THE TALISMAN lacks the depth of these novels -- Twain's works are not merely boys' novels, they are satirical reflections of the world of adults in the actions of children. I don't mean to say that THE TALISMAN is necessarily a bad novel, it's just that I'm disappointed by the missed opportunities in it. Both authors have done much better. Don't pay $18.95 for it... Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Oct 84 23:37:59 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: genesis of "Buckeroo Banzai" From what I've read, Rauch had been fooling around with scripts based on this character for years. He finally found someone crazy enough to agree to actually make one of them. The sources I've seen would definitely indicate that the script (and probably the movie itself) came well before the book. Peter Reiher ------------------------------ Date: 19 Oct 84 09:52:40 PDT (Friday) From: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: Buckaroo Banzai meets the Big Apple >As Dr. Lizardo, the mad-genius villain (a comic-strip mixture of >Eisenstein, Klaus Kinski, and a Wagnerian tenor), Huh. I would have said "a comic-strip mixture of Mussolini, John Belushi, and Father Guido Sarducci." Perfect Tommy: "Why me?" Buckaroo: "Because you're perfect." Perfect Tommy: "You've got a point there ..." Perry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Oct 84 15:49:05 edt From: mar@mit-borax (Mark A. Rosenstein) Subject: Buckaroo Banzai--Background info In response to Perry (Caro.PA@XEROX)'s request for background information about the BB project, here are some excerpts from the Production Information included with the advertising packet from 20th Century Fox. [Author Earl Mac Rauch writes] "When I'd first come out to L.A., Rick [producer W.D.Richter] and his wife Susan had advanced me money to start work on a script about an unusual guy which I called 'Find the Jetcar, Said the President----A Buckaroo Banzai Thriller.'" Rauch quit after about ninety pages, but over the years started other fantastic Buckaroo yarns, which Richter collected. In 1980, Richter and producer Neil Canton formed a partnership and ultimately convinced David Begelman and Sherwood Productions to back the outlandish adventure story. Rauch wrote a whole new draft entitled "Lepers from Saturn," which metamorphosed into "The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai," Richter's debut as a director." Rauch doesn't quit remember the genesis of "Buckaroo Banzai," but he does recall the it was started after a period in which he had briefly changed his name to John Texas. "I wanted to write some kind of pulp serial about a guy who's rich enough to do whatever he wants, someone who's a cross between Mick Jagger and Michael DeBakey, someone humane with the ability to exist outside the system, with the kind of instant recognition Sherlock Holmes and James Bond have." With the movie and the novelization finished, Rauch is already toying with the idea of sequels. "My next story," he says, "deals with Buckaroo's struggles with Hanoi Zan, boss of the infamous World Crime League." Richter and Rauch started the project over 9 years ago, and an entire world has been created. Hopefully he will find backing for the sequel. The packet says for further information, and to obtain the publications "Hard Facts and Persistent Rumors" and "Moving Through Matter", write Banzai Institute for Biomedical Engineering and Strategic Information c/o 20th Century Fox P.O. Box 900 Beverly Hills, CA 90213 -Mark Rosenstein "Use'a more honey--find out a'what she knows" ------------------------------ Date: Fri Oct 19 20:16:33 1984 From: mclure@sri-unix Subject: SF commercial The latest British Airways commercial is a delight. I don't know much about its production history but it looks awfully expensive. Has anyone else seen it? It's the one with a couple of moon-men discovering a British Airways terminal on the moon after their LEM takes off without them. After the commercial there's a scene coming up from behind the moon to reveal the Earth pretty similar to that scene in the opening dialogue of THE INVADERS (TV series, 1960's). Stuart ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Oct 84 9:39:52 EDT From: Ronald L. Singleton Subject: Invasion of the Space Nazis I agree with Zimmerman (SF-Lovers Digest, 17 Oct). Since it seems that a huge majority of SFL'ers are, to say the least, "disappointed" with "V" and any following of the story line, it seems useless for us to flame at each other. Instead, someone post the address and we can start a letter-writing campaign. That probably won't help as long as they are making money from the series, but when "V" is cancelled we can feel that we may have been part of the influence that caused it. New Subject: I am about to finish "Juxtaposition:" is there more, or is this a true trilogy? Please respond directly to me. Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 18 Oct 1984 12:35:34-PDT From: goun%cadlac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Roger H. Goun) Subject: Re: Invasion Of The Space Nazis Robert A Zimmermann (raz@cmu-ee-faraday): Be It Moved That: Henceforth, anyone posting messages about the series 'V' have his/her message returned without inclusion, and be forced to re-read the novelization of said series. While I agree that "V" is mostly drivel, it does have its moments. (Remember the mercenary's line, "Too bad, they would have made great luggage.") I propose a friendly amendment to your motion: have ONE person post a plot synopsis after each episode, along with his or her judgement as to whether or not the episode is worth catching in reruns. I volunteer. However, I may not catch all the episodes. If you'd like to volunteer too, please send me PERSONAL MAIL saying so. We can rotate the duty or something. Unless, of course, I get publicly humiliated for this suggestion. -- Roger Goun ARPA: goun%cadlac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA UUCP: {allegra, decvax, ihnp4, ucbvax}! decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-cadlac!goun USPS: Digital Equipment Corp., APO-1/B4 100 Minuteman Road; Andover, MA 01810-1098 Tel: (617) 689-1675 ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 19 Oct 1984 04:58:34-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Jerry Boyajian) Subject: re: Bring back Barbarella > From: lionel%orphan.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Steve Lionel) > In a recent digest, LATZKO@RU-BLUE ended several movie reviews > with the comment "Bring back Barbarella." Well, she's back, at > least if you have a VCR. Barbarella is one of a number of > videotapes being released soon at the bargain price of $23.50. > Given some of the other titles in the list (Star Trek I and II), I > think that these all may be from Universal. But Steve, the TREK pictures (and BARBARELLA for that matter) are from Paramount, not Universal. > (Did you know that you can also get "Flesh Gordon" on videotape?) FLESH GORDON has been available on tape for some time now, but considering how emasculated (so to speak) the "R" rated version is, I refuse to consider watching it. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}! decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 26-Oct SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #190 Date: 26 Oct 84 1136-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #190 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 26 Oct 84 1136-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #190 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 26 Oct 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 190 Today's Topics: Art - Don Davis Paintings, Books - Herbert (2 msgs) & King & Varley & Waldrop & SF Stories, Television - V, Misc - Horror Films & Worm Literature & Columbia SF Marathon & Updated SF Cons List ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Oct 84 14:16:44 PDT (Monday) From: nowicki.PA@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Don Davis space art paintings for sale Two airbrush paintings by Emmy award-winning space artist Don Davis for sale -- Comet: Painting of a comet whizzing though space. The comet's tail and background stars predominate the view; the comet is rushing toward the viewer. The painting is 15"w x 14"h; framed size is 18"w x 19"h. Nebula: Painting of the inside view of a nebula, an area where stars are being born. Delightful star forms are within the nebula, along with unusual cloud-like formations. Painting is 20"w x 24"h; framed size the same. Don Davis paintings have been published in "Cosmos" and "The Dragons of Eden" by Carl Sagan, "The New Solar System", and in numerous issues of "Sky and Telescope" and other astronomical magazines. He was awarded an Emmy, along with a group of space artists, for his work on the "Cosmos" TV series. Don Davis is noted both for his imaginative views of outer space, and for the scientific research he puts behind his paintings. He is currently working on a book of his paintings; the nebula painting will be published in this book. ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 23 Oct 1984 10:31:32-PDT From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: More comments on DUNE, the book > As for the Bene Geserit breeding program, remember the Butlerian > Jihad would of inhibited them from using the necessary equipment > to use genetic engineering. Oh, no, not at all. The specific object of the Butlerian Jihad was embodied in the O.C. Bible, "Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a man's mind." Genetic engineering, pfui! The Bene Gesserit programme made a far better story, because it dealt with the realities of people and their behaviour. Remember, the Lady Jessica was ordered to produce a FEMALE Atreides, who was to be inbred with a Harkonnen to produce the Kwisatz Haderach. But she disobeyed orders, for reasons that even she herself couldn't explain. All of this byplay, whilst it is meaningless in regard to the very EXISTENCE of the Lisan al Gaib, who could indeed have been designed as was Heinlein's Friday, makes for some very insightful interplay between Paul and his mother. Example: "What have you DONE to me??" "I gave you birth." > Loyality training: many persons, myself included, take physical > risks without much concern for themselves. But threaten harm on > my family!, that's a different matter, I'd become very worried, > perhaps paranoid, and the emotional stress would become quite > severe. It's an obvious thing to do. In fact, terrorists do it > all the time. Loyalty training is a very real thing. Partly instinctive, and partly instilled habit, it is quite solidly based in history. The US Marines, British SAS, or any other crack military organisation DEPENDS upon the fact that its personnel have been thoroughly indoctrinated to function under the belief that the whole is more valuable than the one, and the one must never betray the whole. There's no reason such training could not be applied in a much more permanent and deep-seated fashion by the proper use of psychology or mind-altering substances or both. > Herbert' theme: Anyone remember the old saw "ultimate power > corrupts ultimately?" From Julius Ceasar thru George Washington > to Dick Nixon, history rubs our noses in it. Absolutely. Almost all of human nature is driven by the desire to have power in one form or another, even the procreational urge, which grants power by numbers of presumably loyal offspring. Only what we so blithely call civilisation has changed that instinctive animalistic outlook. Cheers, Dick Binder ("Beware the Jabberwock, my son!") UUCP: { decvax, allegra, ucbvax... }! decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-dosadi!binder ARPA: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 23 Oct 84 18:36 EDT (Tue) From: Mijjil (Matthew J Lecin) Subject: DUNE: tleilaxu couldn't produce kwisatz haderach? (slight Subject: spoiler) (1) Breeding vs. Engineering. The Tleilaxu (implicitly) had considerable genetic engineering ability. They couldn't make a Kwisatz Haderach. They most certainly could, and did! This particular piece comes from the discussion had by the Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam, Princess Irulan, the Tleilaxu Face Dancer Scytale and a Guild Steersman Edric. Page 20 of DUNE MESSIAH: "Because we once bread a kwisatz haderach of our own," Scytale said. With a quick movement of her old head, the Reverend Mother looked up at him. "You didn't tell us that!" she accused. "You didn't ask," Scytale said. "How did you overcome your kwisatz haderach?" Irulan asked. "A creature who has spent his life creating one particular representation of his selfdom will die rather than become the antithesis of that representation," Scytale said. "I do not understand," Edric ventured. "He killed himself," the Reverend Mother growled. That paragraph details the plot of the whole book. In the end, Muad'dib walks willingly to his death in the desert. There are other references. In THE DUNE ENCYCLOPEDIA, the listing for a particular DUNCAN IDAHO ghola (as we know, the Tleilaxu produced Duncan Idaho gholas for the God Emperor Leto during his entire 3500 year reign) it says: "A reconstruction of the artificial Kwisatz Haderach that the Bene Tleilax had created during the regency of Alia Atreides..." In HERETICS OF DUNE, the latest (and final?) Duncan Idaho ghola is, once again, "altered" by the Tleilaxu. This time he is not the kwisatz haderach that the bene Gesserit must fear, but the one male that all the "honored matres" of the Scattering abhor... So, they CAN, COULD and DID make them. ------------------------------ From: draper%lll-tis.arpa@lll-tis (Margaret Draper) Date: Tue Oct 23 14:35:38 1984 Subject: Shephen King A friend told me Shephen King has written some SF. Have i missed something???? M. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Oct 84 19:10:13 PDT (Tuesday) From: Jef Poskanzer Subject: THE PERSISTENCE OF VISION Cc: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA, marshall@UCB-ARPA.ARPA John Varley's classic short story collection THE PERSISTENCE OF VISION is once again in print, published by Berkley. Normally, this would be an occasion for celebration, since this is one of the greatest short story collections of all time, and my copy of the old Dell edition was "borrowed" years ago and never returned. Unfortunately, the new edition has two serious flaws: (1) The cover painting, a rendition of a Symb-Human pair floating in space, is inaccurate and moderately ugly. Certainly the old cover, of two null-suited people playing in a pool of mercury, was preferable. Oh well. (2) Approximately two pages of text are simply omitted from "In the Bowl", near the top of page 173. The omitted text includes the climax of the story. This is really inexcuseable, and I intend to write to the publisher and complain. On balance, I still recommend the book, but not as strongly as I expected to. Those of you lucky enough to still have a Dell edition, hold on to it. Except for one of you, who should sell it to me! Jef ------------------------------ Date: 22 Oct 1984 22:19-PDT Subject: Them Bones, a short review From: FEBER@USC-ISIB.ARPA Them Bones, by Howard Waldrop, is the most recent entry in the new Ace Science Fiction Specials. This series, which has been of uneven quality, although tending toward the good, almost lost me as a steady purchaser with the publication of Palimpsests by Scholz & Harcourt, a truly awful book. Fortunately, things are looking up with Them Bones. The basic premise (which you can get by reading the back cover) is that the survivors of World War III, using imperfect technology, want to send a medium-sized expedition back to the 1930's to try to alter history in order to avert WWIII. (Interestingly enough, Waldrop finesses away the time travel paradox.) The story soon splits into three separate time lines: the major one concerns a scout who gets separated in time from everyone else, and winds up settling down with some casual Indians from the 14th century in a world whose history has been dominated by Islam (although this is just background). Most of the story concerns the scout hanging out with the Indians. The second major story line is about a group of archeologists in 1929 trying to figure out what horse skulls and bullet casings are doing in a 14th century burial mound. Finally, there is the rest of the original expedition, also lost in time. It is really not as complicated as it might seem, and makes for a pleasant afternoon's reading. The writing is clear and straightforward, and full of nice little humorous touches. I was a little disappointed (as I was with Pohl's Heechee Rendevous) that there never seemed to be much point to the story. But, there are enough good bits along the way to make it worth while. (mark) ------------------------------ Date: Tue 23 Oct 84 20:46:39-EDT From: Larry Seiler Subject: SF stories: could they "actually happen that way"? Rather than requiring of a science fiction story that "it might actually happen that way", I think a better requirement is that the story present a "possible world". It is not OUR world, in ways either subtle or blatant, but it has an internal logic and consistency that make it believable. Of course, believability is a matter of personal taste and is based on several points. Scientific accuracy is just one point, although it is fairly important. Believable characters (with comprehensible motivations) are also useful. The richness of the environment in which the story takes place can also make it more believable, even if this richness is based on something that seems implausible. Dune is a beautiful example of this kind of science fiction. Something like spaceships noisily exploding in a vacuum is a different issue from all this. Gene Roddenberry was smart enough to know that spaceships don't whoosh past, and designed the opening to Star Trek accordingly. But it felt dead, to himself and everyone else. So he added the whoosh, and whadda ya know? It felt right, even though it is absurd. If technical accuracy gets in the way of telling the story (and of making it feel believable), then I'm willing to suspend disbelief a little and let it go by. Larry Seiler PS - The claim about mainstream reviewers' opinion about SF - that it is just an allegory told using technological props - is an excellent description of Star Wars. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 84 07:54 PDT From: WAHL.ES@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: V First of all, I read the novel before I saw the mini-series. I liked it. Many of the flaws of the mini-series are avoided in the novel, and other flaws were molified by Crispin's writing. Having seen the mini-series next, I liked it. Not great SF, of course, but it had it's fun moments. (Mostly, I was impressed with the use of images: the spray painted V, the initial discovery of the no-humanity of the Visitors, the balloons. And, I can argue with the scientific complaints -- those about the biology presented all assume that the physiology of the Visitors must be exactly like lizards on our planet. Since they're aliens, that's silly. And all of you who reject the series because the idea of a human/Visitor child is impossible, must all hate Star Trek, too, since it's ridiculous to think a green-blooded Vulcan could mate with a human.) I'll watch the series, at least for laughs. So, I have to cry "censorship!" in response to Ronald Singleton's suggestion that a letter campaign be started to try to have the series cancelled. If you don't like the series, don't watch it! Let the rest of us have our low-grade fun. And if you think that better SF shows should be made -- and I certainly agree -- start a letter campaign urging that. The failure of "V" won't encourage the making of better TV SF, only discourage the making of it at all. Of course, some people would like that idea, believing SF belongs only in writing, but I'm a Star Trek fan, and would love to see something like ST hit the airwaves again. --Lisa Wahl ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 22 Oct 1984 18:15:21-PDT From: herbison%ultra.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (B.J.) Subject: Horror films If you live in Eastern Massachusetts and have not decided what to do on All Saints Eve (or Halloween for that matter), I suggest you check out the Worcester Art Museum. They are putting on "It Came From the Worcester Art Museum", 13 hours of horror films from the 1950s: The Thing (1951), Invasion of the Body Snatchers (1956), The Blob (1956), Forbidden Planet (1956), Tarantula (1955), I Was a Teenage Werewolf (1958), The Tingler (1959). There is an admission charge. For more information call 617/799-4406 extension 269. The address of the museum is 55 Salisbury Street; Worcester, MA 01609. [The museum is also worth visiting during regular hours: 10:00 - 17:00 Tuesday through Saturday, 13:00 - 17:00 Sunday, closed Mondays] See you on 31 October, B.J. ------------------------------ Date: Tue 23 Oct 84 16:23:01-EDT From: LINDSAY@TL-20A.ARPA Subject: The Worm Literature ! The article which quotes John Brunner's "Shockwave Rider" is The "Worm" Programs - Early Experience with a Distributed Computation John F. Shoch and Jon A. Hupp Xerox Palo Alto Research Centre Communications of the ACM Vol. 25 #3 P.172 March 1982 The basic idea was to have distributed computations that replicate themselves into idle machines, and that survive the sudden death of the "worm segments". Worked fine, but one day a mutant took over 100 machines and wouldn't let go. It's a good article. Don Lindsay Lindsay@Tartan.Arpa ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Oct 84 21:40:44 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: Columbia SF marathon in Los Angeles To those outside Southern California, sorry for the useless information. Saturday, November 19th, the LA County Museum of Art will be showing an all day (12 noon to midnight) marathon of Columbia Studio's science fiction and fantasy films. The schedule: "The 5000 Fingers of Dr. T" "It Came From Beneath the Sea" "The Seventh Voyage of Sinbad" "Mysterious Island" "20 Million Miles to Earth" "First Men in the Moon" "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" (original cut) The prints should be pretty good, probably all in 35mm. Ther will be an admission charge. Note the preponderance of Ray Harryhausen films. Peter Reiher ------------------------------ Date: Thu 25 Oct 84 21:50:11-PDT From: Rich Zellich Subject: SF Cons list updated SRI-NIC file CONS.TXT has been updated and is available for FTP. SRI-NIC supports the net-standard "ANONYMOUS" Login within FTP, using any password. CONS.TXT is currently 1235 lines (or 59,885 characters). Enjoy, Rich ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 29-Oct SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #191 Date: 29 Oct 84 1214-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #191 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 29 Oct 84 1214-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #191 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 29 Oct 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 191 Today's Topics: Books - Christopher & Herbert (5 msgs) & SF Criticism (3 msgs), Films - Converting Books to Films ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue Oct 23 22:21:41 1984 From: mclure@sri-unix Subject: Mark Twain in SF The comments about Peter Straub's and Stephen King's book not living up to Mark Twain is interesting. Twain is a lot more complex than most people think. If we discount "local color" (the type of story Twain was aiming for), we're left with long boyhood voyages, almost epic in proportion. I've read a lot of SF that would *seem* to fit this bill, but if we're talking mainly of adolescent characters, there is only one that really *does* fit the bill. I mentioned it on this list 3 or 4 years ago and someone took a nasty swipe at me then, but I am not afraid of mentioning it again. The author is John Christopher and the books are: The White Mountains, The City of Gold and Lead and The Pool of Fire. It is collectively known as The White Mountains Trilogy. They were all written more or less at once, so they don't suffer the usual extremes in quality from book to book as found in most SF. In fact it actually improves as the story gets more complex. To me, at least, this is the "ultimate" boyhood journey in fiction. I like it much better than Twain's TOM SAWYER, HUCK FINN, LIFE ... etc. These three books were chiefly responsible for sparking my interest in SF. For comparision purposes I have read a lot of Heinlein "juveniles" and juveniles by other authors. None hold a candle to TWMT. Sadly, a reading of Christopher's other juveniles revealed no works at a similar level. Take this as fond nostalgia of an interest sparked in my youth, but I have reread the books as an adult (?) and still enjoy them very much. Stuart ------------------------------ From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Date: 24 Oct 84 8:21:43 EDT Subject: Machines will always win I witheld this point from my last message on Dune because it needs some elbow room, but now that the discussion has gotten lively... Yet another hassle with Dune involves a basic question of human nature: Can human beings resist the lure of high technology? Herbert, who is a roots'n'berries type, plainly distrusts anything which can either think or manipulate human genes which is not itself human. So we have the Butlerian Jihad which deep sixes all computers except for (not surprisingly) robot gardeners to water the roots'n'berries. This is completely against human nature, but understandable given Herbert's biases and the age in which Dune was written. There is a deeply flawed but still funny book called Player Piano by Kurt Vonnegut in which a malcontent brings down a heavily automated society, then finds (to his horror) that the common citizenry begins to tinker the hateful machines back together again. TI sold a million "home computers" to people with no earthly use for one, and I get ten mail order catalogs a week full of computerized blotters, computerized air fresheners, and gawdonlyknows what else. Some might call this a fluke of the times, but I see in it a reflection of the forces which accelerated our evolution and our dominance of the planet: Man made tools <> Tools made Man. Our fascination with technology runs right into our genes and there is no getting rid of it now. History has shown us a number of jihads against various things, but a jihad against high technology wouldn't work, in part because it runs powerfully against human nature, and mostly because technology is a mighty powerful force in favor of its own continued existence. If you wipe out (almost) all the high tech from a planet, the revolutionaries who take up the fragments and embrace technology again will plow you under in a hurry. No one has ever captured this notion better than an old Vaughn Bode cartoon starring Cheech Wizard, who is being pursued by a karate-chopping oriental mystic who professes to be pure of spirit and hence invincible-- until Cheech blows his head off with a shotgun. "Welcum ta da West, Gooko!" says Cheech. Pit the techies against the roots'n'berries types, and the techies will win EVERY time. Religious fervor will triumph against everything except technology. Herbert should have quit after writing Under Pressure, the submarine tugboat novel. --Jeff Duntemann duntemann.wbst@xerox The Wolfram Rat ------------------------------ Date: 24 Oct 84 09:36:56 PDT (Wednesday) Subject: Re: Dune bugs From: Colvin.pa@XEROX.ARPA In Jeff Duntemann's message regarding Dune Bugs (SF-Lovers Digest #189) he says " We are now on the verge of being able to terraform whole planets." WE ARE?!?!?!? -- Craig Colvin Colvin.pa@XEROX.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Fri 26 Oct 84 09:50:42-PDT From: Ron Cain Subject: Author/Person Ouch, Jeff Duntemann did it again. Listen, getting on a soap box and spitting at authors is neither polite nor in the bounds of discussions I care to read in this BB. I am referring to "Dune Bugs" in which he accuses Herbert of knowing "diddle about ecology", "not giving a damn", und so weiter. If you don't like the book (and we agree here Mr. D.), then just say so. Point out all the flaws you want, but do not make a frontal assault on the author. A reviewer who cannot make the distinction between a book and the author clearly has no background in formal criticism, and though BB's are intended for exchanging ideas, I question the ease with which petty comments gain a wide audience. I don't propose censorship. But a little good taste would go a long way. Ron Cain (Cain@SRI-AI) ------------------------------ From: decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!bsa@Berkeley Date: Fri, 26 Oct 84 16:43:03 edt Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS ARPA Digest | Date: Fri, 19 Oct 1984 16:30 EDT | From: ASP%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA | To: redford%shorty.DEC@DELdecwrl.ARPA (John Redford)DEL | Subject: flaws in "Dune" | | (1) Breeding vs. Engineering. The Tleilaxu (implicitly) had | considerable genetic engineering ability. They couldn't make a | Kwisatz Haderach. Berkley Medallion edition, September 1975, DUNE MESSIAH (pp. 22-23): "We sold you a creature called Hayt," Scytale said. "Ah, yes -- Hayt," Edric said. "Why did you sell him to us?" "Because we once bred a kwisatz haderach of our own," Scytale said. With a quick movement of her old head, the Reverend Mother looked up at him. "You didn't tell us that!" she accused. "You didn't ask," Scytale said. For those who don't want to look it up, Edric was a Guild Navigator and Scytale was a Tleilaxu Face Dancer. This was part of a longer conversation between the two, Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam, and Princess Irulan. Later on, Scytale revealed that their kwisatz haderach had killed himself because "A creature who has spent his life creating one particular representation of his selfhood will die rather than become the antithesis of that representation". --bsa (decvax!ucbvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!bsa@Berkeley) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 1984 03:46 EDT From: ASP%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: Mijjil (Matthew J Lecin) Subject: DUNE: tleilaxu couldn't produce kwisatz haderach? (slight Subject: spoiler) Ah! You go and quote DUNE MESSIAH at me! Yes, the Tleilaxu claim to have produced a Kwisatz Haderach. (But my position on the worth of the interminable sequels to DUNE as other than kindling has been said too many times already.) My point was that, in DUNE itself, the Tleilaxu had not and could not have produced such a beast, their greatest accomplishment (and partial failure) being the production of the sterile Face Dancers. This was regarded throughout DUNE as the apex of Tleilaxu engineering; it came nowhere near the level of another Muad'Dib. An artificial distinction, perhaps, between the two books? Maybe. Unfortunately, Herbert is not the first author to fudge his future in between sequels, and the ever-expanding abilities of the Tleilaxu and Ixian technologists is not the only thing that changes. --Jim ------------------------------ Date: 24 Oct 84 07:54 PDT From: Newman.pasa@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Mainstream Criticism and Scientific Authenticity Well, here are my two cents: (plink plink) Personally, I read SF for its escapist value as much as anything else. Good SF (for me) will have all the stuff that most people think is important in a book (characterization, interesting plot, ...) but for the most part, I want something that is different from the world that I live in. If I want to read about things that might happen, I read regular fiction or spy novels. I don't compare the world I am reading about in a SF novel to my own, and I don't think of the setting as an allegory; I *WANT* something different and completely removed from what I know in the real world. (Well-written fantasy is as good to me as SF.) Secondly, I think that it is really irresponsible for a SF writer to use bad science in their work. There is enough that we don't know to keep everyone busy writing SF with interesting scientific speculation for a long time. Putting things that are just plain wrong in a story disappoints those who know better, and gives those who don't know any better the wrong idea. I would like to think that I have learned something from SF or al least think that I haven't been mislead into thinking that something might be possible when it really isn't. Of course, there is always the willing suspension of disbelief ... >>Dave ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 84 18:20 CDT From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: SF Criticism I would like to ask those who object to noises in space (whining engines, zapping lasers, etc.) whether they would have much fun at a movie where all of the scenes in vacuum were absolutely silent?? (Perhaps background music only) Noise in space may not be very realistic, but it adds to the effect of the movie. I, for one, am willing to ignore the lack of absolute accuracy. Asto whether Herbert or any other author is totally accurate, I personally look for internal consistency, not scientific perfection. After all, even Niven's Ringworld has been shown to be unstable (even with the corrections in Ringworld Engineers), and Niven is someone who does more than his share of research into his science. In my view of science fiction, I'm not reading about science, I'm reading about people. Peoples reaction to situations, events, etc. The technology is a part of this, but only a part. A well-crafted story (characters, plot, etc.) with poor science is better than a poorly-crafted story with the science perfect (in my opinion). Oh, well. 'Nuff said. Brett Slocum Computer Sciences Center Honeywell, Inc. MN09-1400 10701 Lyndale Avenue South Bloomington, MN 55420 ------------------------------ Date: 25 Oct 84 19:04:24 EDT From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] Subject: Lazarus Longs definition of a critic goes something like Subject: this: A critic is someone who is incapable of creative thought, and thereby feels himself worthy of judging those who are; there is justice in this, as he is unbiased: he hates all creative people equally. I may be wrong, my copy of Time Enough For Love is not here with me; that is the gist of it, however. Rah!Rah!Rah! have fun /amqueue ------------------------------ Date: 26 Oct 84 12:11:02 EDT From: TRUDEL@RU-BLUE.ARPA Subject: Movie conversions Can I say a few words about the film industry in general? When was the last time any of you read a book, and found the screen adaptation lacking? Time and time again I overhear people leaving the theatres saying 'They should've included X or left out Y. It would have made the film better than it was. In any case, the book was better.' This comment holds true for most movie adaptations, and does not limit itself to Sci-fi. Everyone has their own interpretation of what they read, and their opinion may be strikingly different from your own. This carries over to the movie industry, where the film you see is the interpretation of several people combined-generally, the producers, directors and writers. What you see on the screen is the decision of this group; they decide what to include, and what to exclude from a movie. The major consideration has got to be time, and there are limits as to how long the audience will sit for a movie. For some books, it would take as long as it took for you to read it as it would to present it on the screen in a way that would do the book justice. As a result, many compromises have to be made; scenes, characters, and themes are eliminated or combined to make this happen. A special problem arises in Sci-fi: technical information. Presenting it in an understandable manner is easy for us, because we know a lot. Unfortunately, the bulk of the population is not so technically literate. (remember the parsec thing in Star Wars?) Here again, more compromises have to be made, and more of the original context of the story is lost. An example of this would be in Blade Runner where the confirmation test for replicants was reduced to the Voight-Kampf test; in the book the final confirmation came from the bone marrow test. Such fineness of detail is too complex a concept for most people, so this was extracted from the story for simplicity's sake. I may not be giving the masses enough credit, but I feel this is a semi-accurate description. Why write this now? There has been much ado about Dune on the digest, and I know for a fact that many of those who read the book will not be happy with the final product. Thank Zarquon that Frank Herbert joined the production staff of the movie. This will keep Dune from being butchered as much as it could have been if DeLaurentis went at it alone (as he did with King Kong). Along the way, some people (including a few of you) will not like what they see, but that's life. As for me, I will welcome someone else's view of what the story is about. I also may not like what I see, but at least I'm willing to see it through someone else's eyes. To sum up, I just want you to realize that everyone has a different opinion about everything. Try to be a little more tolerant when these people are conveying theirs. If you don't like it, go out to Hollywood and take up directing, producing or whatever,and you can see what it takes to put a film together.(I knew there was a reason I took that film course) ps. as per the 'reality' of sandworms, I find them just as believable as going backwards or forwards in time, travelling through hyperspace, or creating androids 'more human than human' ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 31-Oct SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #192 Date: 31 Oct 84 0950-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #192 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 31 Oct 84 0950-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #192 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 31 Oct 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 192 Today's Topics: Books - Christopher & King (2 msgs) & Lem & Varley & Waldrop & Story Request, Television - Varley on TV & V ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 30 Oct 84 21:14:09 -0200 From: eyal@wisdom (Eyal mozes) Subject: the White Mountains Trilogy Well, I'm really glad to know that someone else has heard about these books! In all my years at high-school in Israel, there was one good thing I could say for our school system: that they included "The White Mountains" in the English-class curriculum (It was provided in simplified English, and the adaptation was quite good. They also provided the other two books, each one written with a progressively more advanced vocabulary, so that those interested in continuing the trilogy were forced to work harder on their English). As far as I remember, this was my first introduction to Science-fiction. For some reason, however, I never heard of these books afterward, and never had a chance to read them in the original. I do, however, question the assertion that these are "the ultimate juvenile journey in fiction". As much as I like these books, there certainly are other juvenile books far superior to them in plot, excitement, and appealing characters. Examples are Heinleins "Citizen of the Galaxy", and "Have Space Suit, Will Travel". ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 84 16:07:12 pdt From: kalash%ucbingres@Berkeley (Joe Kalash) To: draper%lll-tis.arpa@lll-tis Subject: Re: Shephen King The rumour mill has it that "Richard Bachman" is actually Stephen King. He has written three "SF-horror" book: Rage, The Long Walk, and The Running Man. I have never read the first, the second two DO read like King, and I thought the last one was the best. You should take this with a grain of salt (needless to say). Joe ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 29 Oct 1984 01:55:09-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Jerry Boyajian) Subject: re SF by Stephen King > From: draper%lll-tis.arpa@lll-tis (Margaret Draper) > A friend told me Shephen King has written some SF. Have i missed > something???? Well, it all depends on what borders you place on what sf is. Three of King's novels (CARRIE, THE DEAD ZONE, and FIRESTARTER) all feature protagonists who have paranormal powers that are implicitly (or in the case of the last one, explicitly) assumed to be of a physiological, rather than supernatural, origin. In my opinion, this makes these books sf rather than fantasy. As a matter of fact, when THE DEAD ZONE was nominated for the World Fantasy Award for Best Novel, King withdrew it, claiming that it was sf and not fantasy. And then there is THE STAND, whose premise is that 90% of the world's population is wiped out by plague of "superflu" germs. The book does drift into sequences of a fantasy nature, but the first third of the book is solid sf. He also has a full-length novel in the anthology DARK FORCES (edited by Kirby McCauley) called "The Mist", in which a military/scientific project goes awry, ripping a hole in a dimensional wall, and letting into our dimension a hoard of real nasty critters (I mean *real* nasty --- these guys would eat Godzilla for lunch, with The Alien as an appetizer and The Thing for dessert). --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Oct 84 01:50:26 mst From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley) Subject: Stanislaw Lem's IMAGINARY MAGNITUDE IMAGINARY MAGNITUDE is the latest in a series of new Lem translations from HBJ; this particular hardcover edition was translated by Marc E. Heine from an original that appeared in Poland in 1973, with later revisions. (Curiously, the dust jacket claims that Lem lives in Vienna -- when did he leave Poland? Part of IMAGINARY MAGNITUDE was published in a Polish literary magazine in Krakow in 1981...) IMAGINARY MAGNITUDE is a companion to A PERFECT VACUUM; the latter book is a collection of reviews of nonexistent books, the former is a collection of introductions and excerpts from the same. These pieces run the gamut from silliness to facetiousness to pedantry to philosophy. NECROBES is a curiously rationalized introduction to a book of pornographic X-ray images; ERUNTICS prepares us for the story of a mad biologist who tries to teach bacteria English, and succeeds beyond his expectations; the introduction to A HISTORY OF BITIC LITERATURE is a rather dry and scholarly discussion of a catalogue of texts written by machine intelligences; and the introductory offer for VESTRAND'S EXTELOPEDIA IN 44 MAGNETOMES drowns us in a tide of ridiculous neologisms as it gives us the hard sell for an encyclopedia that is so up-to-date, it predicts the future: In an extreme instance, in which there is a Propervirt of less than 0.9%, the TEXT OF THE PRESENT PROSPECTUS may likewise undergo an ABRUPT change. If, while you are reading these sentences, the words begin to jump about, and the letters quiver and blur, please interrupt your reading for ten or twenty seconds to wipe your glasses, adjust your clothing, or the like, and then start reading AGAIN from the beginning, and NOT JUST from the place where your reading was interrupted, since such a TRANSFORMATION indicates that a correction of DEFICIENCIES is now taking place. The core of IMAGINARY MAGNITUDE, however, is the extract from GOLEM XIV, a book by and about a superintelligent computer. Golem XIV was the last in a line of machines produced by the US military in an effort to close the artificial intelligence gap with the Russkies (who, it turned out, were so far behind that the idea of competition was silly). Unfortunately, when called upon, Golem XIV refused to act; it had better things to do... Two of Golem XIV's lectures are included in IMAGINARY MAGNITUDE: the first one discusses Man, concentrating on the nature of human intelligence; the 43rd lecture is about the potential for machine intelligence -- it expresses the belief that not only are human beings incapable of appreciating the reasoning of a computer as smart as Golem, but Golem is incapable of understanding thought on the next level of intelligence, and so on forever. Is there any hope for advance? Lem walks a narrow line by pretending to be a superintelligent machine, and I don't think he quite pulls it off, although the story is nevertheless very interesting. I found IMAGINARY MAGNITUDE to be less fun than A PERFECT VACUUM, mainly because the prose seems a bit lifeless in places. This may be due to the different translations (VACUUM was translated by Michael Kandel, the same fellow who was responsible for the fantastic translation of THE CYBERIAD), although it's always possible that the original was simply more turgid. The best part is Golem XIV's 43rd lecture, which (perhaps not coincidentally) was written 8 years after the rest of the book. Unless you're a diehard Lem fan like me, you should probably wait for the paperback edition... Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn PS -- A quote for John Redford: 'Chronocurrent exformatics is based on the existence of ISOTHEMES (q.v.). An ISOTHEME is a line in SEMANTIC SPACE (q.v.) passing through all thematically identical publications...' ------------------------------ Date: Fri Oct 26 21:11:26 1984 From: mclure@sri-unix Subject: Comments on Varley and others This is in reply to Jef Poskanzer's comments about John Varley's THE PERSISTENCE OF VISION. I totally agree with his strong recommendation of the book. I have a signed copy of the first hardcover edition of PERSISTENCE. It is in my top four favorite books in all the fiction I have read (not just SF), the others of which are Harlan Ellison's DEATHBIRD STORIES, Robert Silverberg's DYING INSIDE, and Vladimir Nabokov's LOLITA. A common theme running throughout these books is a powerfully centralized character with excellent dialogue and plotting and in Ellison's and Nabokov's case, amazing use of the English language. Nathaniel Hawthorne's THE SCARLET LETTER came quite close to being added to these four, but I am still deciding. I also detect a theme of general despair in these works. Perhaps it is my cynicism manifesting itself! Obviously we all have highly personal tastes in fiction, but if you haven't read any of them, I recommend them. Stuart ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Oct 84 01:26:10 mdt From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley) Subject: Re: Them Bones, a short review Here's a second recommendation. Waldrop is the author of 'The Ugly Chickens', an amazingly amusing story (science fiction about ornithology?!) which won the Nebula and World Fantasy awards, and if you haven't read it, you're really missing something. THEM BONES has the same wit and style and is a lot of fun to read. As Mark Feber points out, the book is a little disappointing at the end, since we don't get to follow up the consequences of the interesting parallel universe (universes?) which Waldrop has constructed, but the book mostly makes up for it by giving careful attention to the setting and characters. If you want to see Waldrop find a parallel universe and extend it to its wacky limits, find the story he wrote with Stephen Utley called 'Custer's Last Jump'; it's an insanely funny tale of how the Battle of the Little Big Horn was fought with dirigibles and biplanes, containing all the necessary supporting documentation... 'Nunc audite verbum dei', Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ Date: 30 Oct 84 08:48:09 PST (Tue) Subject: Here's the Plot - What's the Title? From: "Jim Hester" I read this long ago in the dark ages, and it has recently resurfaced to haunt my thoughts. Can anyone help me with some pointers? An inventor, working on a television with lots of extra gadgetry added on suddenly gets a picture of the next room. Fiddling with some of the extra knobs he added causes the picture to shift location, and he is able to get clear views of the goings-on anywhere in the world. Walls don't seem to matter to it. He further discovers that one of the knobs controls time, such that the picture can be focused on any time in the past. As a final assault on our intelligence he fixes an addition that looks at the effect of vibrations on surfaces in the picture, and reproduces the sounds in the scene being viewed. Realizing some of the consequences of such a discovery, he decides that it should belong to the people, and so devises an elaborate scheme of mailing plans to hundreds of places. He develops a special glue for false faces on the envelopes that is designed to let go somewhere in the mailing process, making it harder to trace where the plans originated. The bulk of the story is concerned with the radical changes caused in the world. Crime is impossible, as is any form of privacy. Religion takes a serious drubbing. This was the part I only remember parts of, and would like to review. The story ends with someone finally managing to trace the origin of the plans back through the mail and assassinating the inventor. Any help mill be gratefully received. Jim ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Oct 1984 10:56 EST From: RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Salvation from the Space Nazis Just when you thought facist lizards had usurped broadcast SF forever, comes: `American Playhouse': Three Months at a Glance... Overdrawn at the Memory Bank (February 4) Raul Julia ia the antihero who becomes lost in the inner workings of a giant computer in the not-so-distant future. Written by Corinne Jacker, Directed by Doug Williams. This comes staight from ``DIAL'', the program guide for WGBH, Boston. I assume the other public stations will be showing it at the same time. For those of you who don't know, @i is a John Varley short story, anthologized in one of the DAW ``Best of the Year'' collections, about a man who's memory is preserved in a computer after his body is accidentally misplaced. Let's hope for the best... James Turner ARPA: RG.JMTURN@MIT-OZ%MIT-MC or for those with dumb mailers ARPA: JMTURN@MIT-MC UUCP: Left as an excercise to the reader ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 26 Oct 1984 18:35:00-PDT From: goun%cadlac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Roger H. Goun) Subject: This week on "V" When last we saw our heroes, Julie had developed a bacteria that kills Visitors (and an antidote given to the "good" ones), Elizardbeth had disabled the bomb, and Diana had just escaped from the captured mothership in a fighter. Now...V: The Series. ****** SPOILER WARNING ****** Donovan chases Diana in another fighter, shoots her down and captures her. It is one year later: Liberation Day. Diana is to be put on trial for "crimes against humanity." But the evil head of the corporation exploiting alien technology from the mothership has other ideas. He wants Diana to work for him in secret. Tyler, the mercenary, is enlisted to kidnap Diana from the authorities. The kidnapping succeeds, but Donovan and Martin (a "good" alien) follow. When Martin tries to kill Diana, she escapes. Martin dies. Meanwhile, some news reporters show up at Elizardbeth's home in a helicopter to interview her, but she pushes the 'copter away by staring at it. Later, Elizardbeth starts going through some sort of metamorphosis. She's all wrapped up in a cocoon and glowing with a pulsing green light. (I know, I don't believe this nonsense either.) Donovan and Tyler, who seems to have changed his mind (sigh), follow Diana to a tracking station where she's calling the Visitor fleet for help. Lots of computers with flashing front panel lights get blown up, and Diana escapes in a Visitor fighter that arrives just in time. Diana discovers that the red dye no longer seems to affect uninnoculated Visitors. As the episode ends, we see the Visitor fleet hiding behind the Earth's moon. There was more SF in the commercials than in "V". Quasar had a weird one with engineers in miner's helmets harvesting electronics products from pods, straight out of "Invasion of the Body Snatchers." GE had a bad one with a space motif (space-saver refrigerators, shuttle-shelves, etc.). Polaroid's was the best: a family on vacation runs into a pack of BEMs. Unfortunately, they forgot the film. I'm not sure how much longer I can stand this. -- Roger Goun ARPA: goun%cadlac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA UUCP: {allegra, decvax, ihnp4, ucbvax}! decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-cadlac!goun USPS: Digital Equipment Corp., APO-1/B4 100 Minuteman Road; Andover, MA 01810-1098 Tel: (617) 689-1675 "Too bad, they would have made great luggage." ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 1-Nov SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #193 Date: 1 Nov 84 0918-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #193 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 1 Nov 84 0918-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #193 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 1 Nov 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 193 Today's Topics: Books - Herbert (5 msgs) & King (2 msgs) & Wilson & Scientific Accuracy & Juvenile SF ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 30 Oct 1984 00:12 EST From: ASP%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Machines will always win Two assumptions you have made, neither of them true in all cases: (1) Man = contemporary American technophiles (2) Technology = militarily applicable technology Let's take number one first. Sure, people in the U.S. have made a habit recently of wasting perfectly good resources on technological gimmickry of questionable value in the hopes that it will make their life better, their work easier, or their kids grow up to be other than brain-damaged under-educated gas station attendants. But there have been cultures (feudal China comes to mind, or feudal Japan) which had actively restricted technological development *successfully* for two millennia. Had European barbarians not arrived without scruples against the use of guns, they would most likely be doing it still. In DUNE, there are no Europeans to arrive and conquer; the local technologists are well-restricted, and the Houses maintain a large stockpile of nukes to vaporize anybody who might someday show up from the outside. Note that the basically feudal economy of DUNE furthermore tends to eliminate the competitive pressure to acquire and use advanced machinery that is present in our society. My second point: historically, it must be admitted, no militarily applicable technological advancement, once used, has been put back in the box it came from. But the machines restricted in DUNE are not, in general, militarily useful within the context of DUNE's interstellar society. To what purpose can a computer be employed when any weapon more powerful than a broadsword is ineffective, suicidal, or both? Fire control for bows and arrows? Intelligence in a world where major powers are guarded by intensely loyal family servants? (Or, for the bad guys, blind deaf-mutes?) No application of a restricted machine could possibly help any of the powers that be, as its presence would, at best, undermine the very system on which their power was based. There are a number of flaws in the culture of DUNE, but the Butlerian jihad and its effects are too similar to events in our own history to be among them. --Jim ------------------------------ From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Date: 30 Oct 84 11:16:17 EST Subject: Flatworms of Dune One last shot at DUNE and then it's on to moister and less touchy pastures... All of my objections to DUNE could be uneasily plastered over except for one: The worms, as given, would flatten themselves by virtue of their own mass, which is proportional to volume, which increases as the cube of linear measure. It's the same reason LAND OF THE GIANTS was so silly, along with a host of grade B magnified-iguana movies. Assuming the worms are carbon-based life pretty much as we know it, they simply can't be that big and live, much less move around under their own power. The sad part is that Herbert should know that; he has had at least as many hours of physics as I have (and I was an English major) and ought to keep such fundamental rules of the universe in the corner of his mind as he spins his yarns. If he were an ignorant busboy in a Chinese restaurant I guess I could forgive him, but he claims to be a scientist, and a life scientist at that. Shame on him. Sadder still is the fact that a perfectly reasonable sandworm, perhaps seventy feet long and six feet in diameter, could live on DUNE and still be nothing I would want to encounter in the middle of nowhere with nothing but a pointed stick in my hand. I'll accept DUNE as fantasy, but hell, it's been shouted up the rafters as science fiction (ecological science fiction at that) for going on 15 years or so. Samuel Delany, a man who at least knows when to draw the line between SF and fantasy, holds that science fiction must not "offend the known." Time travel is even predicted by certain solutions of Special Relativity, and hyperdrives fall out into that area in which we do not yet know enough to say for sure what offends the known. But when you take an annelid worm and blow it up to kilometer dimensions you are offending the bejayzus out of the known. I guess I oughta know better than to stick spears in sacred cows. Moooooo! --Jeff Duntemann The Invar Rat ------------------------------ From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Date: 30 Oct 84 11:32:14 EST Subject: Terraforming We are indeed on the verge of being able to terraform whole planets. Two points to discuss: 1) Some planets are more terraformable than others; and 2) I take the long view on verges and their definitions. As a terraforming target, Mars is a cinch. We could do it right now if we'd quit fooling around, ante up the bux, and do it. James Oberg reports the blow-by-blow in a superfine book called (I hope, it's at home) NEW EARTHS on Stackpole Press. Required reading for those who take the science in science fiction seriously. Venus is much rougher; heating is always easier than air conditioning, and getting rid of atmospheric gas is always harder than adding it. Terraforming Titan would be harder still--but how hard, and for how long, are you willing to work at it? By "on the verge" I mean within the next hundred years. If we don't blow ourselves up within that time period there will be no end to us, and the universe has a LONG way to go before it dies of old age. On the (optimistic) timeline of the history of the human race, a hundred years is nothing, nothing at all. --Jeff Duntemann The Nichrome Rat ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 30 Oct 1984 10:11:29-PST From: redford%doctor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: re: technology in the genes Re: innate human drive to be technological: I don't agree with Jeff Duntemann that human beings have an innate fascination with technology. We have been in our present biological form for at least fifty thousand years now, and only in the last five thousand have we done much with tools. Only in the last five hundred has technology really taken off. Now, you could make a case that people in Western civilization, and Americans in particular, are fascinated by gadget-building. That's because we're trained from birth to be interested in that sort of stuff. First it's blocks, and then erector sets and bicycles, and then cars and radios and computers. In "Player Piano", I think Vonnegut was referring to this American urge to invent and not any innate instinct. Vonnegut's mistake was to think that once these automated factories were set up there would be nothing left to invent or build. In fact, machines have been replacing hand labor since the start of the Industrial Revolution. People are still working, though, and they'll keep finding something to do when steel robots replace organic ones on the assembly lines. I would also disagree with the comment that the techies win every time against the roots'n berries folk. The British techies lost against the Afghani primitives in the nineteenth century, and the Russian techies are losing against them today. For that matter, the relatively primitive Russians beat the technologically sophisticated Germans in World War II, and the barbaric Germans beat the sophisticated Romans in classical times. Of course, there are a lot more cases of superior weapons aiding victory in warfare (Spanish conquistadors, the British Raj, the Boxer Rebellion), but technology alone is not enough. John Redford ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 84 16:47 CST From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Yet another DUNE message After reading several months of debate about DUNE, I feel it is time to clear the air. A compromise is in order. Everyone who doesn't like DUNE, don't see the movie. (Novel idea, eh?) Or those who didn't like the book might like the movie. After all, it probably won't be just like the book. Everyone who liked it to some degree, go see it. Those who haven't read it, go see it. This last group will have the fewest prejudices, and therefore, will probably like it the best. Now that that is out of the way, let's get on to some more meaningful discussions. I'm tired of reading about this. Brett Slocum ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Stephen King Date: Mon, 29 Oct 84 19:47:08 EST From: Charles Martin To: draper%lll-tis.arpa@LLL-TIS A friend told me Shephen King has written some SF. Have i missed something???? Yes, he has, but no, you haven't missed anything. Check out recent issues of F&SF. The one with the cover story "Ganglion" (with the hideous art) contains an awful piece by King--I forget the title, but the plot is Frozen-Sleep-Colonization-Vessel-With-Crew- Contingent-That-Runs-Into-Trouble. (I believe Vogt did the premier story of this type, reprinted as part of "Quest for the Future.") King's reworking (I just remembered the title--"What makes us human?") uses this and a straightforward Berserker-type artifact to set up the background for a ridiculous morality cartoon. Ugh. F&SF must have been desperate for filler. ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 31 Oct 1984 23:43:56-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Jerry Boyajian) Subject: Stephen King/Richard Bachman > From: kalash%ucbingres@Berkeley (Joe Kalash) > The rumour mill has it that "Richard Bachman" is actually > Stephen King. He has written three "SF-horror" book: Rage, The > Long Walk, and The Running Man. I have never read the first, the > second two DO read like King, and I thought the last one was the > best. You should take this with a grain of salt (needless to say). Yes, this rumor persists. In fact, a recent catalog I got from a book dealer lists THE RUNNING MAN under King, and at the World Fantasy Con, this dealer was insisting to me that the rumor is true. I neglected to ask him later whether he succeeded in getting the book autographed by King. I haven't read any of the Bachman books, so I can't say yeah or nay as to similarity of styles, but --- Three years ago, at the World Fantasy Con in New Haven, in answer to a question I had regarding a rumor that he'd had a pseudonymous novel published prior to CARRIE, King himself told me that, with the exception of a short story or two published in men's magazines in the early '70's, he has *not* been published under *any* pseudonyms. Two bibliographies of King's work that I have seen acknowledge the "Richard Bachman" rumor, but say that it has not been substantiated. King has also mentioned, in print I believe (I will see if I can find the source), that he is *not* Bachman, though he has met Bachman, who is (or was) a fellow Bangorite. He believes that the rumor started due to some confusion at NAL-Signet, the paperback publisher of both King and Bachman, having to do with the fact that they both come from Bangor. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}! decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 30 Oct 84 17:21:04 EST (Tuesday) From: Heiny.henr@XEROX.ARPA Subject: New (?) Illuminatus book Cc: Illuminafa.pa@XEROX.ARPA I uncovered a new (or at least hitherto unknown to me) Illuminatus production last week. It's "The Earth Will Shake: Volume 1 of the Historical Illuminatus Chronicles" by Robert Anton Wilson, published by Bluejay Press. It's copyright 1982, but the first printing is dated August 84. The next volume, "The Window's Son", is 'coming soon'. It's done in a rather different style than "Illuminatus!", "Schroedinger's Cat" or "Masks of the Illuminati". I found it quite amusing and look forward to the next volume. -- somewhat incoherent nano-spoiler review follows -- The book centers on Sigismundo Celine, an adolescent in 18th century Naples, who becomes involved in the usual (if you can call it that) maze of conspiracies and strange Neapolitan & Sicilian behavior involving people named Maldonado (all of them with huge noses), Celine, Portinari, Joyce, Verey, Cagliostro, Mozart, Frankenstein, and Robert Drake; among others. The starring conspiracies include Masons (four or five different flavors), Jesuits, Dominicans, the >Rossi< (a bunch of proto-Bolsheviks), >Allumbrados<, etc. Blue garters appear occasionally. ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 30 Oct 1984 10:02:59-PST From: redford%doctor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: re: value of scientific accuracy Brett Slocum asks: > I would like to ask those who object to noises in space > (whining engines, zapping lasers, etc.) whether they would have > much fun at a movie where all of the scenes in vacuum were > absolutely silent?? Well, 2001 tried to be accurate about noises in space by including only noises in the spacesuit, mainly the astronaut's breathing. That worked very well dramatically, since it gave the audience immediate clues to his state of mind. The airlock entrance scene was played completely silently, and that added to its nightmarish quality. Kubrick managed to be both scientifically correct and dramatically interesting. That's the combination that we are looking for. Stories that are all science and no drama, like Hal Clement's, tend to pall after a while, and stories that neglect the realistic details risk losing the reader's suspension of disbelief. If you think that sandworms are ridiculous, then tense scenes about trying to ride them have no impact. There is one other important reason to try and get the details right. The real world is ultimately richer and more interesting than anyone's imagination. If you look for inspiration to real science, you can never run out of ideas. Lucas looked for inspiration to the serials of the thirties, and as a result the "Star Wars" series was played out by the third movie. He fell back on blowing up the Death Star again, on having another duel with the Force, on more spaceship chases and dogfights. If he had tried to imagine what an interstellar civilization would really entail, he would not have had to repeat himself so soon. Sf writers have been working on them for fifty years now, and "Downbelow Station" proves that the field is not mined out. John Redford ------------------------------ Date: Wed Oct 31 20:06:59 1984 From: mclure@sri-unix Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #192 I contest Eyal Mozes' claim that Heinlein's CITIZEN OF THE GALAXY is a better juvenile than Christopher's THE WHITE MOUNTAINS trilogy. I specifically read COTG because I had heard it was one of Heinlein's best juvenlies and while it is good, I don't think it is the best. Moreover, I think Heinlein is generally overrated as an author now. In his time, he was the architect of major structural changes to the genre of SF but now he is a historical figure of no practical present importance. Stuart ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 5-Nov SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #194 Date: 5 Nov 84 1103-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #194 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Nov 84 1103-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #194 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 5 Nov 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 194 Today's Topics: Books - Herbert (2 msgs) & Palmer & Varley & Wilder, Comics - Star Trek, Radio - King's THE MIST ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 02 Nov 84 10:45:30 PST (Fri) To: duntemann.wbst@xerox Subject: Re: Flatworms of Dune / realism and suspension of disbelief From: Martin D. Katz "The worms, as given, would flatten themselves by virtue of their own mass, which is proportional to volume, which increases as the cube of linear measure." One should not assume that sand worms are overgrown annelid (earth worm). They could be designed with a strong arched internal support in each segment. The mass-volume rule you give only applies to homogenous structures with no change in composition. It only applies approximately to real systems. If it applied in all cases, elephants could not walk. Neither should one assume that an annelid is hollow and empty. Worms living underground are partially supported on all sides by the ground around them. If they had to support the weight of the ground above them they would indeed be flattened. If a sand worm surfaces, but is at least half-way submerged then the surrounding sand could tend to help support the worm. ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 2 Nov 1984 13:29:53-PST From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: Will the DUNE controversy never end? Rebuttal to ASP%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA: > Two assumptions you have made, neither of them true in all cases: > (1) Man = contemporary American technophiles > (2) Technology = militarily applicable technology > Let's take number one first... > ...Had European barbarians not arrived without scruples against > the use of guns, they would most likely be doing it still. In > DUNE, there are no Europeans to arrive and conquer; the local > technologists are well-restricted, and the Houses maintain a large > stockpile of nukes to vaporize anybody who might someday show up > from the outside. ARRGGH! The most serious violation of the Convention possible, as pointed out just before the final battle in DUNE, is the use of atomics against people. Nuking the hypothetical outsiders isn't a viable option. As for scruples against the use of guns, Baron Harkonnen seems not to have had any such, and his invasion of Arrakis with artillery was therefore quite effective. > My second point: historically, it must be admitted, no militarily > applicable technological advancement, once used, has been put back > in the box it came from. But the machines restricted in DUNE are > not, in general, militarily useful within the context of DUNE's > interstellar society. To what purpose can a computer be employed > when any weapon more powerful than a broadsword is ineffective, > suicidal, or both? Fire control for bows and arrows? Aw, c'mon now, this surmise borders on idiocy. Consider the hunter- seeker that was used in the initial attempt on Paul's life. That was a little more sophisticated than a broadsword, I'll wager. If such weapons are possible, what is the law of nature that says an electronically aimed slow pellet cannon (whose projectiles explode once inside a shield) won't work? Such a device, controlled by even a stupid automaton, could wreak havoc. The key question here, then, is rather at what point of sophistication said fire-control engine becomes a machine built in the image of a man's mind - that is what the Butlerian Jihad destroyed and the O.C. Bible prohibits. And now, to give the other side equal time, rebuttal to duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA: > All of my objections to DUNE could be uneasily plastered over > except for one: The worms, as given, would flatten themselves by > virtue of their own mass, which is proportional to volume, which > increases as the cube of linear measure. It's the same reason > LAND OF THE GIANTS was so silly, along with a host of grade B > magnified-iguana movies. Assuming the worms are carbon-based life > pretty much as we know it, they simply can't be that big and live, > much less move around under their own power. This assumption is precisely the one that one CANNOT make - otherwise, water and the ecology of the palmaries of the south of Arrakis would not be so bloody deadly to the Makers. The Arrakis ecology is clearly not based on carbon-based life pretty much as we know it. Shall we try for silicon? Silicon compounds have a much higher strength to mass ratio than do similar ones based on carbon. Also, given that the Makers are worms, the stress on any given cross-sectional area is proportional to the square of the linear dimension, not the cube. It's a nit, but the difference, relative to a creature that must support its body above the ground on legs, is significant. I admit, though, that a living creature 80-100 metres in diameter and two kilometres (half a league, wasn't it?) long stretches my credulity even then. > The sad part is that Herbert should know that; he has had at least > as many hours of physics as I have (and I was an English major) > and ought to keep such fundamental rules of the universe in the > corner of his mind as he spins his yarns. If he were an ignorant > busboy in a Chinese restaurant I guess I could forgive him, but he > claims to be a scientist, and a life scientist at that. Shame on > him. Allow me to quote Ezra Pound: "You can spot the bad critic when he starts by discussing the poet and not the poem." Cheers, Dick Binder ("Beware the Jabberwock, my son!") UUCP: { decvax, allegra, ucbvax... }! decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-dosadi!binder ARPA: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Nov 84 05:04:02 mst From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley) Subject: David R. Palmer's EMERGENCE EMERGENCE (Bantam, 1984; 291 pp.) is David R. Palmer's first novel, and it's a humdinger of a science fiction adventure in the best tradition of Analog and Astounding -- Campbell would have been proud of it. It's not surprising, then, that the first two sections were published in Analog magazine, and they managed to garner a Nebula nomination and two Hugo nominations... The book is the diary of one Candy Smith-Foster, 11-year-old prodigy and irrepressible heroine. When a Russian first strike kills 99.9% or more of the population of North America, Candy finds herself and her obnoxious companion, a bright blue macaw named Terry, alone in a huge fallout shelter which her foster father has had constructed beneath their home in Wisconsin. Normal folks might find this situation a bit depressing, but fortunately Candy is an absurdly optimistic person and she and her bird soon emerge to embark on a wild and hairy tour that takes her back and forth across the continent and eventually into space... The action comes in bursts of surprising intensity, and although this makes the narrative a bit jumpy, you tend not to notice this while reading because you are much too busy turning pages. The style is rather curious and takes some getting used to: it is a very telegraphic English, which is rationalized as being the result of the impatience of someone with an IQ of well over 200 trying not to be bored while writing as fast as possible in shorthand (Pitman shorthand -- Palmer is a certified shorthand court reporter, according to the biographical blurb). The book is funny and exciting by turns, and always engrossing. There are some negative things about the book, too, unfortunately. One problem is the difficulty that Palmer has in preventing Candy from backsliding into cuteness; Candy has a good feel for when to drop a self-deprecating remark, though, so this isn't usually very annoying. Like another recent first novel which is somewhat similar in feel, Tim Powers' THE ANUBIS GATES, the plot has a number of gaping holes and preposterous assumptions that are only evident when you finally read the last page, wipe your brow and exhale. (Are the Russians really so evil that they would attempt to kill every human being on the planet, then leave behind a doomsday device that would take care of any inquisitive survivors just in case the first try overlooked someone? And that's positively straightforward compared to certain other events which I won't spoil...) Another minor problem with the book is that once you realize just what kind of book it is, it becomes fairly easy to predict the plot, although for some reason this doesn't decrease the suspense any. Don't expect depth from EMERGENCE, but I can pretty much guarantee that you'll have fun reading it. (Go back to your library and re-read Sturgeon's MORE THAN HUMAN to get the marshmallow feeling out of your mind...) Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ Date: Fri 2 Nov 84 05:49:45-CST From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA Subject: Varley's PERSISTENCE OF VISION ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ PERSISTENCE OF VISION ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I'm another who rarely reads short sf because it's less enjoyable to me than the long. (Whether a short story's good or bad, I too often feel cheated. If bad, because I wasted my time on something I half expected to be worthless. If good, because it was over so soon.) So there may be some significance that among all my hundreds of sf books (and I keep less than 1 out of 5 that I read) there is \one/ single-author collection-- PERSISTENCE OF VISION. And, that of the 2 I have in hardback despite severe space shortage which restricts my sf to paperbacks, one is PERSISTENCE.... It, and Schmitz' DEMON BREED I have "backup" hardback copies of against the inevitable day when the paperbacks' pages have turned brown and started falling out. Only the title-story itself turns me off utterly. The others range from a couple fair to 2-3 so good that they hurt... like "Phantom of Kansas" and "In the Halls of the Martian Kings". While I fully agree with Jef Poskanzer that the original cover is superb (tho the paperback's is too small and cluttered to be very effective except insofar as it is evocative of the larger version on the dust jacket of the hardcopy), to me it's contents rather than containers which matter. But I \do/ have that Dell 1979 paperback edition he yearns for, and if he comes on down to NASFiC next year-- I'll make him a present of it! ------------------------------ Date: Fri 2 Nov 84 05:53:46-CST From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA Subject: Wilder's LUCK OF BRIN'S FIVE ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Defective books: LUCK OF BRIN'S FIVE ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Jef Poskanzer's ire at shoddy publishing is well based, but whether writing in protest does any good is, from my experience, dubious. Maybe one \ought to/, on principle. But only for the sake of the principle, not from any anticipation of its making any difference. A few years back the paperback edition of Cherry Wilder's LUCK OF BRIN'S FIVE came out \minus the last 12 pages/! This was FAR worse than 2 from a short story, for all the threads of the plot were left dangling, and there was no clue to the fact that the publisher had goofed rather than that the then-all-but-unknown author couldn't craft a story properly. Both Varley and PERSISTENCE OF VISION are known and secure in readers' regard. But this was Wilder's first U.S. mass-market book, and one can only wonder how many people who DID take a chance and buy it never would shell out for another by Wilder. Having come across the hardback edition among the `young people's books' at the library (one never knows what will turn up there!), I'd been so impressed with Wilder's intriguing alien culture and the reactions of the stranded human to it and the aliens' to him, that I was so resentful of the harm done to the potential contributions this writer might have made to sf that I felt unusually impelled to DO something. I didn't just write in protest but sent along my copy and asked for a refund. The response? Zilch. ------------------------------ Date: 1 Nov 84 09:17:11 EST From: Saul Subject: Star Trek DC comics has started to publish a Star Trek comic book. They did an adaptation of the movie which was fairly good and now they are into new stories of the Enterpriseless crew. They have a fairly interesting set of ideas though on what happens to the crew. The story goes something like this: ****** SPOILER ****** The crew leaves Vulcan in the Bird of Prey heading to Starbase 13 to "turn themselves in." Meanwhile Starbase 13 has come under attack by a ship and the Excelsior commanded by Captain Styles rushes to the rescue. Along the way, the Excelsior picks up the Bird of Prey and places Kirk and his crew under arrest. They reach the Starbase to find that it is under attack by (any guesses??).... The Enterprise!!!!!! It seems that the other dimension Kirk from "Mirror, Mirror" has crossed over to our dimension in the hopes of conquering the Federation. The other Kirk fights the Excelsior and winds up capturing the ship (it seems he is at least as resourceful as our Kirk) and he places our Kirk under arrest. The other Spock takes off in the Bird of Prey heading towards Vulcan to mind meld with our Spock to learn the secret of Genesis which the scientists in the other dimension have not yet discovered. As you might have guessed by now, our Kirk gets free and beams over to the Enterprise where with the help of the intruder defense system and his own crew from our universe, takes over that ship. How's that for a way to not only regain the Enterprise but also I suspect that the other Spock will somehow be responsible for the full mental recovery of our Spock. As either would say... Fascinating. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Nov 84 13:21:24 CST From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI Subject: King's THE MIST / Radio drama Regarding the reference in #192 to King's THE MIST, I thought I'd let you know that a radio dramatization of that forms the first three episodes of an NPR fantasy/SF series called "The Cabinet of Dr. Fritz". {Yes, I, too, thought of Mondale...] This series is produced in binaural sound, designed for headphone listening. You might want to check with your local NPR FM stations to find if it is, will be, or has been carried in your area. NPR stations seem to carry this sort of thing on an independent basis -- it's been on WSIE (Edwardsville, IL) for three weeks now, but that doesn't mean much in relation to any other station. It's not a bad radio drama; the sound effects are pretty good. I cannot compare the story to the original, as I haven't found that DARK FORCES anthology yet. I heard the first episode in the true binaural mode, and it is worthwhile to listen through headphones. (Unfortunately, the student engineers at WSIE mucked up the audio on the next two broadcasts, putting one in mono and the other with one or the other channel dropping out from time to time... Sigh...) Anyway, it's worth a listen. Each episode is 30 minutes long. Regards, Will ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA USENET: seismo!brl-bmd!wmartin ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 7-Nov SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #195 Date: 7 Nov 84 1202-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #195 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Nov 84 1202-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #195 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 7 Nov 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 195 Today's Topics: Administrivia - Returned Messages (PLEASE READ), Books - Foster (2 msgs) & Herbert 3 msgs) & Story Request Answered (5 msgs), Films - Comments on Films, Television - V, Miscellaneous - Obituary of Barry Gray ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 Nov 84 09:12:42 EST From: Saul Subject: Returned messages To all readers and contributers: What is happening is that sf-lovers-usenet@sri-unix is the mailing address for our connection to the usenet. For the past several weeks sri-unix has been switching machines and the mailer is therefore down. Someone at that site knows of the situation and will re-install the address when they have finished their conversion effort. Meantime, I will be getting the usenet messages relayed through someone else and am furiously pushing the appropriate people here at Rutgers to get our unix machine onto the usenet. If you receive a returned message when submitting to sf-lovers, there is no need to resubmit it. I have received one copy of the message and I will put that message in a digest as soon as possible. Please bear with us....... Saul ------------------------------ From: ecl@hocsj.UUCP Subject: M. A. Foster's newest collection Date: Thu, 1 Nov 84 22:27:15 MST I just got a publicity flyer from DAW advertising M. A. Foster's new book OWLTIME as "four short novels...a unique reading experience." The page count for the entire book is "256pp." That averages 64 pages per story. Unless these figures are in base twenty (what the heck is the word for "base twenty"-- my mind has created a black hole for this information to hide in), these are at best novellas or perhaps even novelettes. They may still be good but they ain't novels. Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!hocsj!ecl ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (Jerry Boyajian) Subject: re: M.A. Foster's new collection Date: Mon, 29 Oct 84 03:08:12 MST > I just got a publicity flyer from DAW advertising M. A. Foster's > new book OWLTIME as "four short novels...a unique reading > experience." The page count for the entire book is "256pp." That > averages 64 pages per story. Unless these figures are in base > twenty (what the heck is the word for "base twenty"-- my mind has > created a black hole for this information to hide in), these are > at best novellas or perhaps even novelettes. > >They may still be good but they ain't novels. > > Evelyn C. Leeper Well, they *did* say "*short* novels". If you look up "novella" in the dictionary (the AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY, anyway), you will see it defined (2.) as "A short novel." In fact, the term "short novel" is much more commonly used than "novella". --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 04 Nov 84 02:20:22 PST (Sun) Subject: Sandworms to flatworms? From: Alastair Milne Why should the weight of a sandworm crush it? Why should its weight increase in direct (or cubic) proportion to its volume? These are animals with moderately (perhaps very) sophisticated anatomies, not objects all composed of the same material. Parts of them are likely to be very light; possibly they have bony or chelatinous skeletal structures specially adapted for bearing great weight, as have the shrew and the whale (the shrew, although obviously very light by itself, can bear great weights without being crushed, because of the structure of its spine). Also, the sandworms don't live ON land, except when the Fremen force them to: they live under it, and enjoy from it a support which must be at least similar to what whales get (and what the larger dinosaurs are believed to have got) from water. Perhaps the tiring of a maker after it has been ridden for a time is at least partly an adaptation to let it return to the depths of the sand. Obviously, I don't *KNOW* whether non-marine animals that size could survive. But I DO know that the animals of Earth alone exhibit enormous complexity in the range of their adaptations for survival, including some which are pretty unbelievable. So it seems reasonable to me to accept the sandworms without fuss. They are clearly extraordinary; but clearly impossible? Certainly not. A. Milne PS Herbert wanted to tell a story, and a political story at that, of a feudal society, degenerate in many aspects, into which the people of Dune wanted to burst with rebellion and slaughter. He was not publishing a technical manual on the ecology (or the zoology) of a desert planet. Perhaps, if people are so interested in them (or keep trying to find flaws in them) he should publish as an appendix some of the notes of Kynes and his father. But they are not a story and do not belong in the story. ------------------------------ Date: 04 Nov 84 02:28:21 PST (Sun) Subject: Terraforming Arrakis From: Alastair Milne Isn't that just what the Fremen were working on in secret, under the guidance of Kynes, and his father before him? And secret it had to be: suppose the Emperor, or the Harkonnens (before the Atreides succeeded them) had discovered them trying to change fundamentally the planet which was the greatest known spice source? What would have happened to the Fremen and their desert stations then? The Harkonnens would have launched a campaign to wipe them out, instead of merely despising and persecuting them in a mean, small fashion. A. Milne UC Irvine ------------------------------ Date: 04 Nov 84 02:33:40 PST (Sun) Subject: Re: Herbert, and his other good book From: Alastair Milne I want to add my vote for "Dragon in the Sea", which it still was when I first read it. I'm sorry to hear about the title "21st Century Sub"; it seems to me to miss the point. I also want to suggest "The Dosadi Experiment" as a powerful story (I regret I have not read the one before it, "Whipping Star"). Though only moderate on characterisations, it has all of Herbert's talent for complex intrigues and hidden motivations, all bound up in alien cultures. I find the details of the Gowachin legal system fascinating, if very uncomfortable. To refer to what started this debate, in the case of the Dune movie, I hardly think it matters how well (or poorly) Herbert has succeeded with his other books. His position as the creator of the Dune world is what makes his opinion on the movie valuable. If he feels that it states adequately on the screen what he wanted to say in the book, knowing better than anybody else can just what the book is trying to say, then I for one feel encouraged about the movie. (Of course, if you hold the opinion that the creator of a work is simply its starting point, and that it grows from there through the interpretations of its audience, then the above is not necessarily true. I don't hold that opinion personally, so I defer further discussion to people who do.) As for financial persuasions, Herbert is not one of the struggling writers who must, for practical reasons, let money take precedence over art. He is widely published, with a number of well-known books. He has worked in a broad range of fields and gained a number of qualifications. And I know of at least one precedent, in the case of Paddy Cheyevsky, for an author's refusing the fruits of a disagreeable modification of his work (in fact, in Cheyevsky's case, disowning the modification entirely). So although the possibility exists that he is simply contributing to the lining of his own pocket, I think the probability is comfortably low. A. Milne UC Irvine ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Nov 84 9:53:23 EST From: Daniel Dern Subject: Re Story Query for TV Viewing Re Jim Hester's query on a modified TV that lets you see ( and hear) anywhere, and resulting impacts on society: 1. My first guess is "I See You" by Damon Knight, a short story. I think this was in one of the F&SF Special Issues, and/or one of the Terry Carr Year's Best SF anthologies. I find it hard to believe the story is more than five years old, which makes me worry about people talking about the dark ages. 2. An older, longer and more memorable work on this theme is "E For Effort", by T.L.Sherred. The main argument against this being the story looked for is "reproduces the sounds of the scene being viewed." In Sherred's story, they couldn't do that. They hired lots of lip readers. Other disqualifications: mailing lots of plans out, viewing the present. This is a more interesting story to read, I think. It's in a collection of four of Sherred's novellettes, all quite good. Daniel Dern ddern@bbn.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Nov 84 10:37 PST From: Piersol.pasa@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #192 I remember the story, and even the name of the device, an Ozo. I saw it in an anthology on time travel, but no more information occurs to me. Sorry... There were some really unusual ideas in the story, such as why people after the Ozo's invention still found "Bob & Carol & Ted & Alice" wildly funny. Apparently, these people were accustomed to seeing anything and everything about anyone, so they found the rather veiled and adolescent references to sex in the movie hilarious. I remember the ending differently, with the inventor of the Ozo being dead by the time he was discovered. The only religion which survives is a particularly severe form of Zen. The other religions all have inspiring, but hardly divine, moments in which they were concieved. Religion dies with a whimper. Kurt ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 1984 04:02 EST From: RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: Jim Hester Subject: Here's the Plot - What's the Title? The story you're looking for is...run to library (boy, I'm glad I read SFl at home)... "I See You", by Damon Knight, anthologized in DAW's "The 1977 Annual World's Best SF". Great story, but the bit you thought you remembered about the inventor being assassinated is non-existent. James ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 84 11:05:25 CST From: Mike Caplinger Subject: Re: Here's the Plot, What's the Title? I didn't send this earlier 'cause I don't have all the info, but... The story about the device that can view all of space/time is called "I See You." It's in Best Science Fiction Stories of the Year #6, I think. Unfortunately, I can't remember the author's name, but it's an excellent story. - Mike ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 3 Nov 1984 08:02:28-PST From: herbison%ultra.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (B.J.) Subject: Re: What's the Title? - inventing the viewer The story of the inventor who discovers a viewer that can get images across space and time (and its effect on life) is *I See You* by Damon Knight. It appeared in F&SF's special Damon Knight issue (November 1976), I have it in *The Best From Fantasy and Science Fiction, 23rd series*. The story is well written and required careful reading on my part. Several times the characters did actions which confused me, but became clear when I read on and looked back. B.J. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 84 12:54 CST From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: John Redford's comments I agree with John Redford's comments in regards to my discussions of noise in space. I think that Kubrick's handling of the exterior scenes was wonderful, and the airlock scene was masterful. 2001 is a special case, though. The scenes in vacuum were fairly simple - no combat (at least not ship-to-ship), one ship, a pod, and one or two humans. As long as the point of view is the person in the suit, it works. I'd like to see him try that technique on a starship combat of any type. As far as sandworms are concerned, they did not stretch my willing suspension of disbelief to the breaking point, but maybe mine is a little more pliable than others. (I know I said that we should stop talking about Dune, but just this once, please!) I also agree with your comments about STAR WARS. I enjoyed the STAR WARS trilogy, but I didn't think it was great science fiction. I would say it was pretty good space opera. (Especially The Last Hope.) Maybe Lucas has made enough money to try something daring next time. Like a real science fiction movie with all the good things included: accuracy, plotline, characterization, drama, humor, etc. And no cutsey creatures that are purely for the 'oohh, isn't that cute' effect. (You know who I mean.) Brett Slocum "I canna do it, Captain. I've gotta have thirty minutes!" ------------------------------ From: nova@abnjh.UUCP (Scott Allen) Subject: V: Elizabeth's future (SPOILER!!) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 84 19:28:32 MST [Say the word and he's a walking pair of aligator shoes!] The thing about this series is that it's trying to be a cross between the average action show (everything happens in 48 minutes of broadcast time) and a night-time "soap" (continueing plots over several weeks). NBC has released a lot of information about V to TV Guide and other tabloids. One of the things everybody wants "the inside story" on Elizabeth. *** SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER *** Elizabeth is mutating into a teenager. The actress that will play the older Lizard (Uh, I mean 'Lizzie) has appearred in TV Guide (one of the future plots will be how she and her mother will compete for the same man) and has had several TV interviews (Entertainment Tonight I think). Now if this is how NBC is going to run things, I think it will be (one of) the series' downfalls. One of the things that makes Science-Fiction great is the surprises. Although I can't expect V to have the amount of security as a major motion picture, I wish NBC would quit broadcasting what's going to happen. Scott Allen ATT-IS Orlando, Florida ..!abnjh!nova ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 5 Nov 1984 09:59:10-PST From: dearborn%hyster.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Randy Dearborn, Art Director, From: DTN 264-5090 MK01-2N25) Subject: BARRY GRAY, COMPOSER I just learned yesterday of the death of Barry Gray. Barry was responsible for the music for most of Gerry Anderson's television and film projects. These included: FOUR FEATHER FALLS, TORCHY THE BATTERY BOY, SUPERCAR, FIREBALL XL-5, STINGRAY, THUNDERBIRDS, (and the two Thunderbirds films,) CAPTAIN SCARLET, JOE-90, SECRET SERVICE, THE INVESTIGATOR, UFO, SPACE 1999 (year one,) the films JOURNEY TO THE FAR SIDE OF THE SUN and THE DAY AFTER TOMORROW, and the commercial ALIEN ATTACK for Jif Dessert Toppings. He was involved in other projects as well, but was best known for his work with Century 21 Studios. His work enhanced the efforts of the other specialists and artists involved in the projects. Many of them, like Gray, got their start at C21, and are recognized as among the best in their fields. (Derek Meddings has gone on to be one of THE people in miniature film effects.) Barry Gray has spent the last few years working on "Library" music for different studios in England. Although his work will live on, he will be missed. Randy Dearborn Digital Media Services, Merrimack 603-884-5090 Merrimack, NH HYSTER::DEARBORN F.A.B. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 7-Nov SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #196 Date: 7 Nov 84 1257-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #196 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Nov 84 1257-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #196 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 8 Nov 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 196 Today's Topics: Books - Borges & Brin & Herbert (2 msgs) & Palmer & Varley (2 msgs) & Wolfe & Authors of No Importance & A Misidentification, Television - Star Trek (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ecl@hocsj.UUCP Subject: Schenck and Borges Date: Tue, 23 Oct 84 07:08:25 MDT Those of you who were fascinated by/enthralled by/mildly interested in Hilbert Schenck's "The Geometry of Narrative" should read Borges's "An Examination of the Work of Herbert Quain." (It appears in FICCIONES, and possibly other collections of Borges's work.) Those of you who like it should read more Borges. (And conversely, those of you who like Borges should read Schenck's story, which appeared in ANALOG last year--I forget which issue.) Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!hocsj!ecl ------------------------------ From: novikoff@tesla.UUCP (Eric A. Novikoff) Subject: Discovered David Brin Date: Wed, 24 Oct 84 17:18:20 MST Has anybody read STARTIDE RISING, SUNDIVER, and THE PRACTICE EFFECT by David Brin? I found the books (especially STARTIDE RISING) to be captivating and deep (sorry about the pun, Brin fans.) Has / is he writing anything new? I anxiously await the reopening of the door into the Brin universe. Has any one else thought of "uplifting" dolphins? Eric Novikoff tesla!novikoff@cornell.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 5 Nov 1984 12:23:24-EST From: Bob.Walker@cmu-ee-faraday Subject: Nat. Lamp's DOON - slight spoiler On the other hand, if you *do* enjoy poking fun at Dune, then you might like "National Lampoon's DOON", by Ellis Weiner (Pocket Books, 1984, $2.95, in the Humor section). * slight spoiler * This is the story of Pall Agamemnides, which begins with his mother, the Lady Jazzica (of the Boni Maroni cooking school) taking him to be tested by the Revved-Up Mother George Cynthis Mohairem. Here is he is tested with the abdul-jabbar, the high-handed, long-legged enemy (also called the skyhook). He passes, of course, and is soon on his way to Arruckus, Doon, the dessert planet. A sugar-coated planet entirely without entrees, it is patrolled by the enigmatic, sweatsuit-wearing Freedmenmen (the sweatsuits help them rid themselves of extra calories). And, of course, it is the tale of his rise to power. How he becomes the Laserium al-Dilah', The Bright Light of the Italian Love Song, and the Mahdl-T, the one who will drive us to Paradise and back. How he becomes Mauve'Bib: Pall thought a moment, then spied Loni in the crowd. The moonlight glowed cool silver on the purple napkin around her neck, and he recalled with an inward-warming-up-feeling how she had cleansed his lip of sudsfoam. "What do you call these napkins?" he asked, pointing to those worn by all the tribe. Spilgard looked puzzled, indicated his own. "Why, Pall who is Assol, it is the color mauve, and it is a bib. We call this a mauve bib." He looked at the others, shrugging. "That shall be my name, then," Pall said. "That, plus my given name, lest I forget my father and his executors (sic). From this day I shall be Mauve'Bib Agamemnides!" He shot a glance around the gathered tribe in triumph, yet saw averted eyes, strained smiles hidding embarrasment, heard surpressed titter-laughs. A voice emerged from the rear of the group. "Pretty stupid name..." And finally, how he becomes the Kumkwat Haagendasz, The One Whose Fruit-Like Soul is Tempered to a Soft Consistency, perhaps also referring to a chef who can prepare many dishes so that they can all become ready at the proper time. And of course, this is the tale of the addictive drink called "Beer", which permeates Arruckus. Beer, also called Foam, Suds, or Brew, is found on the surface in pools called beer bellies, causing all the inhabitants to have the distinctive red-in-red eyes. And roaming the planet are the giant sand pretzels, which Pall must learn to ride. - bob walker walker@cmu-ee-faraday.arpa The Litany Against Fun, from "National Lampoon's DOON": I must not have fun. Fun is the time-killer. Fun is for children, customers, and the help. I will forget fun. I will take a pass on it. And while it is going, I will turn a blind eye toward it. When fun is gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain - I, and my will to win. Damn, I'm good. ------------------------------ From: knight@rlgvax.UUCP (Steve Knight) Subject: National Lampoon's DOON Date: Wed, 24 Oct 84 19:51:00 MDT ****** SPOILER WARNING ****** I happened to be in the local high-volume commercial bookstore and came across a book on their front stands entitled "National Lampoon's DOON." I didn't catch the author's name; sorry. Since I'm as much of a sucker as anyone else for a good pun-laced parody of a popular work (I throughly enjoyed "Bored of the Rings," after all), I gave it a quick thumbing through. Seems we have a young protagonist named Pall, who is being sent to Arruckus, the Dessert planet, where the dominant form of life is a form of giant pretzel... ho hum. Now, I don't exactly know why, but my internal warning system lit up, telling me, "Don't buy this turkey!" Before I completely dismiss it based on my one unreasonably rushed thumbing through, however, I wanted to see whether anyone out there has read it and could either confirm my good taste or else teach me never to make such snap decisions ever again. How about it? Would anyone care to post a review? By the way, if you think the timing of the release of this book has nothing to do with the fact that the movie is coming out in two months, have I got a bridge for *you*! Steve Knight {seismo,allegra,some other sites}!rlgvax!knight ------------------------------ Date: Tue 6 Nov 84 00:19:36-EST From: Wang Zeep Subject: Emergence Emergence is a terrible book. Sort of a cross of Dean Ing's Systemic Shock with Podykayne of Mars, except that it gets both the kid and the technology wrong. Give me a break; although it may sell, the last thing this world needs is another h. sapiens successor story. (I was hoping they would discover some form of kryptonite that attacked h. post-hominem superpeople, but no such luck.) wz ------------------------------ Date: Mon Nov 5 19:47:50 1984 From: mclure@sri-unix Subject: Varley As a premier Varley fan who was turned on to him by this list some number of years ago, I must say that I was very disappointed by his post-Persistence work including the Titan series and Millenium. I think that his publishers or someone pushed him into novel-length fiction before he was ready. To be sure, his Ophiuchi Hotline novel was interesting but read more like an extended story such as The Time Machine, rather than a full novel. And his Titan series and Millenium are very shakey by my standards. Barbie Murders was ok but not up to the level of Persistence even though some of the stories were intermixed in the same time period. I'd be interested to find out what his next novel will be about. I think he should return to the "Eight Worlds." He belongs there until he matures. Let me reiterate that I consider his Persistence collection and Ellison's Deathbird Stories collection the absolute *best* short fiction I have read anywhere, including all the short fiction I read by the "masters." But because the former was a quick spurt of creativity over just a few short years and the latter was a compendium of the best short works by a prolific short fiction author, I consider the former to be a greater creative achievement. Stuart ------------------------------ Date: 6 Nov 84 10:57:56 EST (Tuesday) From: Russell.Wbst@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Varley back in print Varley's THE OPHIUCHI HOTLINE has also been reissued in paperback. After all the positive comments about it and THE PERSISTENCE OF VISION in this digest over the years I finally got copies of both and enjoyed them very much. Anyone like to supply the text for the missing two pages of IN THE BOWL? Corky (russell.wbst@xerox.arpa) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Nov 84 03:18:11 mst From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley) Subject: FREE LIVE FREE by Gene Wolfe Imagine my amazement when I walked home in the dark in the wee hours of my birthday recently and found a package from Mark Ziesing, sf bookseller and specialty publisher, on the doorstep. Of course it wasn't a birthday present but the result of a check I sent him a month ago for a new book he's published, Gene Wolfe's novel FREE LIVE FREE ($45, 496 pp.). The book is well-produced, profusely illustrated (a drawing by Rich Schindler appears at the head of every one of the 60 chapters, plus there are several full-page drawings by Rick DeMarco, and the (peculiar, to say the least) cover art is by Carl Lundgren), signed (by Wolfe and each of the artists), numbered (mine is #218 out of 750), and genuinely funny... The plot of FREE LIVE FREE is very difficult to summarize; not because a summary would give the game away (which games?!), but because the plot is so crazy that I couldn't possibly say anything without being misleading... and I might not realize I was being misleading until the next time I read the book! No worries about spoilers from me this time. About all I can say is that the book appears (stress the 'appears') to take place in a very run-down part of an unnamed large city, in our own time, and involves a literally bewitching cast of characters from the street. There are science-fictional elements in the story; and there are also fantasy elements, detective-novel elements, spy-novel elements, Dickensian elements, satirical elements, occult elements and probably as many other elements as I could name. It's practically a periodic table. (I should mention that Wolfe also reveals a ghastly weakness for puns and malapropisms.) I can say what this book isn't: it most definitely isn't THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN. It also isn't 'The Rubber Bend', 'A Criminal Proceeding' (both from PLAN[E]T ENGINEERING) or 'The Eyeflash Miracles' (from THE ISLAND OF DOCTOR DEATH AND OTHER STORIES AND OTHER STORIES), even though it shares themes and styles with all three stories. The ultimate product is unique. I have some hypotheses about what the book IS (besides 'unique'), but I won't spoil them except to note that the epigraph of the book reads: 'The country needs and, unless I mistake its temper, the country demands bold, persistent experimentation.' -- Franklin Delano Roosevelt And I can't resist quoting at least one short passage: '"Well, blow me down! I just remembered, I got a date wit Olive. What time is it?" 'Stubb glanced at his wrist. "Six forty-five." '"Wow!" Candy looked around at the darkened buildings. "It seems more like midnight. It really got late early tonight." 'Nimo capering ahead of the rest, stopped and threw his arms wide. "Lipstick!" '"Listen," Barnes told Stubb. "I got to get slicked up. She's going to pick me up in front of the Consort at eight." '"Okay, you're not heavy. I bet Candy could do it." 'Nimo dropped to his knees before her. "If I only had a lipstick, I could make stripes on these pajamas. I could give myself a red nose, too." '"Jim, get him away from me! I think he's going to sing that song from 'The Wizard of Oz.'" '"I like it," Little Ozzie announced. "We're o-o-off to see the Wizard, the Wonnerful WizardoFoz!" Because of the wonderful things he does, Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ Date: 2 Nov 84 16:26:51 EST (Friday) Subject: Re: Stuart's article about Heinlein. From: Todd Chronis FLAME ON! Using his criterion, here's a few other historical figures of no practical present import: Plato Freud Rosseau Proust Morris Hemingway And here's a couple of present day figures of no importance at all: Spider Robinson Herbert Christopher Norton King Varley Niven These writer's have few imitators. Certainly ten years from now they will have no imitators. As a matter of fact, I would say that precious few modern day writers have any importance NOW. All the writer's in my first group have had major impacts on how literature has evolved, and all other writer's are unabashedly copying their style; to a large extent the vast majority of writers are mimicing the work of a few. (Heinlein is one of these few) This confirms their importance today, yesterday, and in some cases 2000 years ago. To say that "he was the architect of major structural changes to the genre of SF but now he is a historical figure of no practical present importance." is to utter a contradiction. FLAME OFF! ~ Todd ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 2 Nov 1984 22:15:38-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Jerry Boyajian) Subject: re: Stephen King > From: Charles Martin > Check out recent issues of F&SF. The one with the cover story > "Ganglion" (with the hideous art) contains an awful piece by > King--I forget the title, but the plot is > Frozen-Sleep-Colonization-Vessel-With-Crew- > Contingent-That-Runs-Into-Trouble. (I believe Vogt did the > premier story of this type, reprinted as part of "Quest for the > Future.") King's reworking (I just remembered the title--"What > makes us human?") uses this and a straightforward Berserker-type > artifact to set up the background for a ridiculous morality > cartoon. I hate to tell you this (actually, I love to tell you this, being a King fan, myself), but the story you just described, "What Makes Us Human" [no "?"], in the August 1984 of F&SF is by Stephen R. Donaldson, *not* Stephen King. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ From: avolio@grendel.UUCP (Frederick M. Avolio) Subject: Re: Star Trek pilots Date: Thu, 25 Oct 84 09:23:24 MST >If you want to get picky you would have to say that Spock and Capt. >Pike were the only two characters in both episodes. Although I have >heard that the actor in the "wheelchair" was not the same one that >played Capt. Pike in the first pilot. John Eaton Capt Pike, in "The Cage", was played by the late (note *late*) Jeffrey Hunter. I don't know if he was replaced by Shatner because he was killed or whether he was fired (so to speak) before his death. He died after breaking his neck in a fall down his cellar steps quite a few years ago. He is possibly most known for his portrayal of Christ in the movie *King of Kings* shown in every city on at least one station *every* Easter season. Fred Avolio, DEC -- U{LTR,N}IX Support 301/731-4100 x4227 UUCP: {seismo,decvax}!grendel!avolio ARPA: grendel!avolio@seismo.ARPA ------------------------------ From: herbie@watdcsu.UUCP (Herb Chong, Computing Services) Subject: Re: Star Trek pilots Date: Sun, 28 Oct 84 12:58:24 MST According to Gene Rodenberry in The Making of Startrek (I'm pretty sure it was there), Jeff Hunter was not signed to the second pilot, "Where No Man Has Gone Before", because he was already signed to a movie during the time they were planning to film. So they had to find a replacement and William Shatner happened to be available. Herb... I'm user-friendly -- I don't byte, I nybble.... UUCP: {decvax|utzoo|ihnp4|allegra|clyde}!watmath!watdcsu!herbie CSNET: herbie%watdcsu@waterloo.csnet ARPA: herbie%watdcsu%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa BITNET: herbie at watdcs,herbie at watdcsu ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 7-Nov SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #197 Date: 7 Nov 84 1332-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #197 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Nov 84 1332-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #197 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 8 Nov 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 197 Today's Topics: Books - Ellison (9 msgs) & Powers (3 msgs) & Wilder, Films - Cronenberg & Mars Needs Women (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: wombat@ccvaxa.UUCP Subject: Re: World Fantasycon Report (*long*) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 84 18:39:00 MDT *sigh* At last year's World Fantasy Con in Chicago, Harlan Ellison read most of a good vampire story. He'd almost finished it, and promised it would be out in the next "Whispers," which was to be a special Ellison issue, an issue which has as yet to materialize (through not fault of Stuart David Schiff, I'm certain). Maybe someday, after *The Last Dangerous Visions*, perhaps, I'll find out how it ends... Wombat "I am not, nor have I ever been, Jan Howard Finder" ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat ------------------------------ From: yteitz@aecom.UUCP (Yosef Teitz) Subject: Harlan Ellison and Frank Herbert Date: Thu, 25 Oct 84 18:26:30 MDT As far as Herbert goes, I must agree that he is definitely not one of the most awesome of writers. On the other hand... HARLAN ELLISON I recommend anything that this man has wrote, and if you can get your hands on a slightly obscure book by Keith Laumer called "Five Fates", it includes stories by Laumer, Ellison, Herbert, Dickson and Anderson. Keith Laumer wrote a one page start of a story, and the all five of them wrote separate short stories using it as the basis of their story. One can see their divergent styles just by analyzing each of their first paragraphs. One more thing: If anyone has a way of obtaining some of Ellison's older books, send me a message. You can't always get what you want, But if you try sometimes you just might find You don't get it anyway. yteitz ------------------------------ From: hughes@super.DEC (Gary Hughes - CSSE residing on SUPER for From: today only) Subject: Ellison vampire story Date: Thu, 25 Oct 84 08:24:16 MST At SYNCON 83 (Sydney, Australia), Harlan Ellison read his incomplete vampire story also. The complete version was meant to be printed in a fanzine produced in New Zealand (another con where the incomplete story was read). If anyone knows when/if it will be published, please post it to the net. I would really like to know the outcome of the story. Gary Hughes UUCP: ...{decvax|allegra|ucbvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-mother!hughes ...!dec-godzla!hughes ARPA: hughes%mother.DEC @decwrl.ARPA hughes%godzla.DEC @decwrl.ARPA reality?: DEC, ZKO1-2/C07, 110 Spit Brook Rd, Nashua NH 03062 ------------------------------ From: chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Zonker T. Chuqui) Subject: Re: World Fantasycon Report (*long*) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 84 11:21:11 MST > Maybe someday, after *The Last Dangerous Visions*, There was an article in Locus a few months back which said that Harlan was going to ship TLDV to the publisher the first week of August. He seems to have finally broken a 10 year writers block that seems to have actually been caused by some physical problems he has had. Considering that TLDV was due out in 1976 or so, I'm glad I didn't hold my breath for it, but I AM looking forward to seeing it when it does arrive. chuq From the Department of Bistromatics: Chuq Von Rospach {cbosgd,decwrl,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA I'd know those eyes from a million years away.... ------------------------------ From: mikevp@proper.UUCP (Mike Van Pelt) Subject: Re: Harlan Ellison Date: Sun, 28 Oct 84 14:47:05 MST RE: Harlan Ellision? I suppose if what you like is terminally depressing unrelieved morbidness, Ellision is the writer for you. Personally, I would rather read something that has at least one little glimmer of humanness somewhere in it. ------------------------------ From: lasko@regina.DEC Subject: Yes, *H*A*R*L*A*N* *E*L*L*I*S*O*N* Date: Tue, 30 Oct 84 07:38:43 MST I disagree completely with proper!mikevp. Harlan Ellison writes about the human condition, which, as much as some of us might like to believe, isn't a 100% warm, cuddly and soft place. If one can't feel sympathy and the pain behind the characters in the "Paingod" collection, the frustration in the "Gentleman Junkie..." collection, and the revenge, and hatred, and indifference in other stories of his, then I daresay that you lack the glimmer of "humanness" that you claim to seek. I'm told that in person, Mr. Ellison is not the most congenial of people in the world. So be it. I judge a person by his deeds and works, not by his social graces. His stories are not often optomistic, but they are practically guaranteed to make you *think*, and maybe reconsider part of the world around you. And maybe it just might help you share a lonely, depressed evening. And maybe even survive one. Writing Harlan Ellison of as "morbid" is doing him a great injustice. tim lasko {decvax, allegra, ihnp4, et. al.}!decvax!dec-rhea!dec-regina!lasko DEC, Maynard, Mass. ------------------------------ From: ix241@sdcc6.UUCP (ix241) Subject: Re: Yes, *H*A*R*L*A*N* *E*L*L*I*S*O*N* Date: Thu, 1 Nov 84 09:46:16 MST >from the terminal of Tim Lasko > His stories are not often optomistic, but they are practically > guaranteed to make you *think*, and maybe reconsider part of the > world around you. And maybe it just might help you share a > lonely, depressed evening. And maybe even survive one. Ellison's stories are depressing. They make you think. They need to be taken in small doses. I would not 'share' such an evening with Ellison unless I had something a bit more cheerful to relieve the depression he added to it. It is much more enlightening and fun to read his commentary on just about anything. His acerbic wit makes his prose on any subject enjoyable to read even if it pisses you off. It makes you think as well. So I agree with Tim's last statement. > > Writing Harlan Ellison of(f) as "morbid" is doing him a great injustice. John Testa UCSD Chemistry sdcsvax!sdcc6!ix241 ------------------------------ From: mikevp@proper.UUCP (Mike Van Pelt) Subject: Re: Yes, *H*A*R*L*A*N* *E*L*L*I*S*O*N* Date: Thu, 1 Nov 84 00:49:27 MST lasko@regina.DEC writes: >I disagree completely with proper!mikevp. > >Harlan Ellison writes about the human condition, which, as much as >some of us might like to believe, isn't a 100% warm, cuddly and >soft place. ... > >Writing Harlan Ellison of as "morbid" is doing him a great >injustice. Well, everyone to their own tastes. I have read only two stories by Ellison that I liked: "Repent, Harlequin...", and "Pennies off a Dead Man's Eyes". I thought "Pennies..." was outstanding. However, everything else I have read of his, is ugly, depressing, and, yes, morbid. "I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream" is fairly typical. The human condition isn't a 100% evil, nasty, sadistic horror, either. ------------------------------ From: lasko@regina.DEC Subject: Re: RE: Yes, *H*A*R*L*A*N* *E*L*L*I*S*O*N* Date: Sat, 3 Nov 84 00:08:38 MST "nasty, evil, sadistic horror?" Nonsense. Ellison's stories admittedly deal with the darker effects of our actions ("Croatoan"), our inner demons ("In Fear of K"), our inner apathies and fears ("The Whimper of Whipped Dogs", but he also talks about how we have brought things upon ourselves ("Repent Harlequin..." and "I Have No Mouth..." are cautionary tales). But he can also speak of triumph ("Wanted in Surgery", "Life Hutch"), and sometimes he can even be funny. But since even Yahweh would have spared Sodom and Gomorrah, had Lot been able to find one worthy person, even Ellison should not be consigned to morbidity and sadism. Here are five of his stories that I guarantee not to be depressing: "Mom" - Strange Wine "From A to Z, In the Chocolate Alphabet" - Strange Wine "How's the Night Life on Cassida?" - Shatterday "Working With the Little People" - Strange Wine "Deeper than the Darkness" - Paingod and other Delusions I also highly recommend The Glass Teat/The Other Glass Teat for biting, hilarious, and thought-provoking commentary about 1968 through 1971. And, if you can't take full doses of Ellison, try his Partners in Wonder collection of collaborations. tim lasko {decvax,ihnp4,allegra,et.al.}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-regina!lasko ------------------------------ Date: Tue 6 Nov 84 00:26:00-EST From: Wang Zeep Subject: Tim Powers Contrary to popular belief (or at least Donn Seeley's), Anubis Gates was not Power's first novel. From the ill-fated Laser series, I found two more (MITSFS has 'em). Look for "Epitaph in Rust" and "The Skys Discrowned" -- the latter's cover painting is reprinted in the Freas artbook with the Fredric Brown Martian. He then published the Drawing of the Dark. ratings: AG (as a standard) 10.0 DotD 9.0 --(magic is precursor of AG's magic) tSD 6.0 EiR 6.0 Yet another good reason to join MITSFS, wz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Nov 84 08:02 EST From: "Andrew D. Sigel" Subject: Tim Powers' first novel The novel in question was not THE ANUBIS GATE (a very good second novel, to my mind), but THE DRAWING OF THE DARK, published a number of years ago (four? five?) by Del Rey. Or, rather, TDOTD was Powers' first novel. I understand that a third novel is due out in the next month or two.... Andrew Sigel ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Nov 1984 13:42 EST From: Dean Sutherland Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #194 >From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley) >annoying. Like another recent first novel which is somewhat >similar in feel, Tim Powers' THE ANUBIS GATES, the plot has a >number of gaping holes and preposterous assumptions that are only >evident when Tim Powers' THE ANUBIS GATES is NOT his first novel!!!! His book "The Drawing of the Dark" was published about 5 (or more) years ago. It is a truly ingenious Arthurian fantasy set in 14th century Vienna. Although not "great literature", it is sufficiently inventive, well written, and amusing that it should be on everyone's must read list. (it doesn't quite make the "must buy" list, though...) Dean F. Sutherland Tartan Labs ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Nov 84 08:11 EST From: "Andrew D. Sigel" Subject: THE LUCK OF BRIN'S FIVE printer error It's interesting that this topic should come up, but I remember when the first Pocket printing with the 12 missing pages was issued. I hadn't read Wilder at the time, but I had a friend who did, and who mentioned, a very short while after the book came out, that the last twelve pages of the hardcover were missing. I was working in a bookstore at the time, looked at one of our copies, and it seemed to end awfully abruptly, so I 'borrowed' some of the store letterhead and dropped a note to Pocket. The response (I don't recall from whom) came rather swiftly; my letter apparently beat that of Wilder's agent by a few days, and Pocket said that I should strip the covers from our copies and send them back; the book would be reissued 'soon'. (As I recall, it took almost a year for Pocket to reissue the book.) However, I don't recall seeing ANY publicity about the strip-and-return policy; if I hadn't written, the books would have stayed on the shelf. My friend had a running battle with Kroch's and Brentano's in Chicago -- about once a week, she'd go in and make them pull the book from the shelf, only to come in the next week to find it was back out. For those who have never read Wilder, she has six novels published thus far -- one completed trilogy, one original paperback, and the first two books of a second trilogy -- A PRINCESS OF THE CHAMELN, and YORATH THE WOLF. I enjoyed all of the books in the trilogies, though I have yet to read the sf paperback. Andrew Sigel PS: It'll be interesting to see how Berkley deals with its two page omission in THE PERSISTENCE OF VISION. Any word yet? ------------------------------ From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) Subject: Re: Cronenberg's STEREO & CRIMES OF THE FUTURE Date: Tue, 23 Oct 84 13:34:11 MDT > Based on these films Cronenberg has become, I am told, the > second highest Canadian filmmaker. What does he do, smoke the cuttings? ------------------------------ From: donn@utah-gr.UUCP (Donn Seeley) Subject: MARS NEEDS WOMEN Date: Fri, 26 Oct 84 18:33:56 MDT From Jeff Lewis (lewie@pur-ee.UUCP): Is there some significance to the phrase "Mars Needs Women" or is its correlation to a Tonio K. song (and my signature!) just another example of synchronicity??? I think it's a plot... I've never heard of 'Tonio K.' or a song named 'Mars Needs Women', but there is a classic bad sf film named MARS NEEDS WOMEN that gets shown every now and then on late night TV. I turn into a pathetic heap of giggles whenever I see it... The, um, plot of the movie is very straightforwardly based on the title. The only lines I still remember from the flick (no doubt incorrectly) are: (The Martians pile into a shiny American car. The camera follows MARTIAN #1, who is wearing a suit with a thin tie and narrow lapels, just like all the other Martians, as he flops into his seat. [I don't recall that any explanation was given for the origin of their snappy duds.] MARTIAN #2 is about to follow MARTIAN #1 into the car. MARTIAN #1 palpates his tie and gives MARTIAN #2 a quizzical glance.) MARTIAN #1: What a primitive culture! MARTIAN #2: (Fingers his own tie.) Why, yes! These went out of style at least 50 years ago on Mars! Joe Bob says check it out, Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ From: cuccia@ucbvax.ARPA (Nick Cuccia) Subject: Re: MARS NEEDS WOMEN Date: Sat, 3 Nov 84 19:29:25 MST For MARS NEEDS WOMEN, one can also refer to the Bloom County strip of October 19 (or October 12). Fun Stuff. --Nick Cuccia --ucbvax!cuccia ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 9-Nov SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #198 Date: 9 Nov 84 1453-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #198 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Nov 84 1453-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #198 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 9 Nov 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 198 Today's Topics: Books - Kim Stanley Robinson & The Flying Sorcerors (10 msgs), Miscellaneous - Combat in a Vacuum ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ecl@hocsj.UUCP Subject: ICEHENGE Date: Wed, 24 Oct 84 12:18:18 MST ICEHENGE by Kim Stanley Robinson Ace, 1984, $2.95. A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper This novel is similar to PALIMPSESTS, another novel published by Ace. Both speak of the past (history) as being unknowable. That is, we base our knowledge of history on artifacts. But artifacts can be misinterpreted, faked, lost, or whatever. In addition, no one sees the entirety of a historical event--just their corner of it. As Connie Willis pointed out at L.A.con II, there was no single event called 'Dunkirk,' but a collection of impressions. The 'Dunkirk' of someone on the coast of France was different from the 'Dunkirk' of someone in a boat on the Channel being shelled, and neither is the same as the 'Dunkirk' of a general in London. ICEHENGE is Robinson's attempt to show both these ideas, and some others besides. It is told in three parts: "Emma Weil: 2248 A.D.," "Hjalmar Nederland: 2547 A.D.," and "Edmond Doya: 2610 A.D." Weil is caught up in the original Martian mutiny, Nederland is excavating a Martian city destroyed during that mutiny, and Doya is trying to explain Icehenge, a structure of ice slabs resembling Stonehenge but built on Pluto and found while Nederland was excavating on Mars. Much of the latter two sections is concerned with theories and how they rise and fall as new evidence is discovered. (An earlier version of the first section appeared as "To Leave a Mark" in the November 1982 issue of F&SF and was nominated for a Hugo; part also appeared as "On the North Pole of Pluto" in ORBIT 21.) Robinson's main characters are interesting, though his auxiliary characters seem a bit sketchy. The plot is straightforward, interesting, and moves right along. There are a lot of good ideas (not just the historical ones mentioned). The only quibble I have is that three points of view of history is the wrong number. None of the sections (except perhaps the first) really stands on its own, yet the three together still seem incomplete. Once Robinson has said that there are many interpretations of history, he should show us more than three. One person has complained that this book wraps everything up too neatly--that the reader *knows* what happened when it's done. I'd like to see Robinson do a sequel proving how wrong the reader was! (This has great possibilities as an open-ended series, each disproving the conclusions of the preceding volume!) I claimed that Robinson's first novel was Hugo material; while this isn't quite that, it's right up there. Robinson is a new author I'd keep an eye on. Appropos of this topic of historical/archeological uncertainty, I would recommend James Michener's THE SOURCE. The framework of this novel is an archaeological dig in Israel and the various sections have to do with the true history of the items that are found. (I say "true" history because the sections are told from third-person omniscient point of view, rather than third-person non-omniscient as Robinson's are.) For example, the archaeologists find a marble hand at the level of Grecian influence and postulate that it was broken from some statue which has not survived. In fact, there was never any more statue than the hand itself, carved by the artist to *suggest* the rest of the figure. And there are artifacts described by the third-person omniscient narrator which are never found, that would explain a lot more of what *really* happened. (And for those who haven't read Carter Scholz's and Glenn Harcourt's PALIMPSESTS, it puts forward the idea that artifacts are altered to change history, much as the names of those fallen from favor in ancient Egypt were chiseled out of the obelisks previously erected in their honor.) Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!hocsj!ecl ------------------------------ From: jrrt@hogpd.UUCP (R.MITCHELL) Subject: Summarizing the TFS responses Date: Tue, 23 Oct 84 09:02:40 MDT [Pass the Quaff...I want to make defiled water.] Thanks for all the responses concerning the gods and such in THE FLYING SORCERORS by Gerrold and Niven. I got lots of mail, including some from: ihnp4!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!alcmist (Fred Wamsley) ihnp4!decvax!genrad!teddy!mjn (Mark J. Norton) ihnp4!decvax!ittvax!bunker!bunkerb!mary (Mary Shurtleff) ihnp4!sdcsvax!sdcrdcf!randvax!rohn (Laurinda Rohn) ihnp4!zehntel!zinfandel!berry (berry?) ihnp4!inuxc!inuxa!rmrin (?)1 Just about everyone proved to be smarter than me by suggesting "Musk-watz" was Sam Moskowitz, the author/editor/fan/critic/ historian. My lack of familiarity with SF magazines showed itself when lots of people suggested "Furman", the god of fasf, was spotlighting Ed Ferman, a former editor of FANTASY AND SCIENCE FICTION (which can be abbreviated FASF). Po, the god of Decay, is most probably Poe, as in Edgar Allen, and not Pohl as I had originally suggested. Instead, Pohl may be identified by Fol, the god of Distortion, but I'm still not sure why. Other suggestions that I have less confidence in include "Yake" as being Asimov (based on "Ike". I can assure you this is not correct. The Good Doctor is mentioned in the book, but giving the context would be a terrible spoiler), or as John Jakes. One writer suggests "Eccar" is Forrest J. Ackerman. Another offers Edgar Rice Burroughs, with Tarzan = "The Man". "Kronk" may well refer to Walter Cronkite, as most people suggested, but I'm sure a more appropriate diety for The Future could be found among all the unused SF authors. One person offered Groff Conklin. (What *does* the K in Ursula K. LeGuin stand for?) "Poup" *might* be Pournelle, as someone offered, but I don't think he'd published anything at the time TFS was published (1971). Another suggestion was that this god of Fertility should be pronounced "pop" as in "population." Perhaps, but this theory spoils the SF trend of the pantheon. One person states that at the time they were writing the book, Gerrold and Niven were active in LA fandom, and immortalized some of their fellow fans by using variants of their names to christen the characters in the book. Hence, names like Shoogar and Lant have no intrinsic puns in them. (A major exception exists in the case of Lant's offspring...) There's lots of subtle word play in the book, such as in the names of the twin suns, some geological features, currency, and so forth. If you've not read THE FLYING SORCERORS, I highly recommend it as an excellent and humorous "analysis" of the dramatic effect technology can have on one's life. Rob Mitchell {allegra,ihnp4}!hogpd!jrrt Don't get me wrong. I like those people and in many ways admire them. They're the salt of the earth. It's simply that I want other condiments as well. - Clifford Simak ------------------------------ From: hollombe@ttidcc.UUCP (Jerry Hollombe) Subject: re: flying sorcerers Date: Thu, 25 Oct 84 10:41:07 MDT The pun on Asimov's name was specifically revealed at the end of the book. In fact, Asimov was the main character's real name. The name Purple came about because his translating machine had misinterpreted Asimov as "As a mauve" which came out "As a color, shade of purple gray" in the local language. -- J. Hollombe The Polymath ------------------------------ From: smw@sjuvax.UUCP (Stewart Wiener) Subject: Re: Questions on TFS Date: Tue, 23 Oct 84 16:51:26 MST You might also notice that the word "yngvi" is used throughout *The Flying Sorcerors* to mean "louse". The origin of this is L. Sprague de Camp and Fletcher Pratt's stories of Harold Shea (five of them, available in paperback as "The Compleat Enchanter" and "Wall of Serpents") -- in one of which a mad prisoner in a dungeon shouts, every hour on the hour, "Yngvi is a louse!!" Stewart Wiener / St. Joseph's University / allegra!sjuvax!smw ------------------------------ From: scw@cepu.UUCP Subject: Re: Flying Sorcerers Date: Tue, 23 Oct 84 16:25:02 MST rcmcc@whuxi.UUCP (MC_CONNELL) writes: >If I remember correctly, the natives kept referring to the lead >character as "Purple." > "Purple" <- As-i-mauve <- Asimov >is my interpretation. Specifically his (the Human character's) translating machine renders his name in the language of the natives of the planet as: "as a purple shade of gray"->"as a mauve"->Asimov, nifty pun. The story is told from the point of view of one of the natives. Stephen C. Woods (VA Wadsworth Med Ctr./UCLA Dept. of Neurology) uucp: { {ihnp4, uiucdcs}!bradley, hao, trwrb, sdcrdcf}!cepu!scw ARPA: cepu!scw@ucla-cs location: N 34 3' 9.1" W 118 27' 4.3" ------------------------------ From: dub@pur-phy.UUCP (Dwight) Subject: re:TFS summary--Fol Date: Sun, 28 Oct 84 10:22:22 MST > From: jrrt@hogpd.UUCP (R.MITCHELL) > > Po, the god of Decay, is most probably Poe, as in Edgar Allen, and > not Pohl as I had originally suggested. Instead, Pohl may be > identified by Fol, the god of Distortion, but I'm still not sure > why. How do you get Fol (god of distortion) out of Phol? Here goes. You distort Pohl's middle letters and you get Phol which can be shortened to Fol (in a similar manner that fish can be lengthened into phish.) Dwight Bartholomew UUCP:{decvax,icalqa,ihnp4,inuxc,sequent,uiucdcs}!pur-ee!pur-phy!dub {decwrl,hplabs,icase,psuvax1,siemens,ucbvax}|purdue!pur-phy!dub ------------------------------ From: jeff1@garfield.UUCP (Jeff Sparkes) Subject: Re: Re: Flying Sorcerers Date: Mon, 29 Oct 84 11:15:55 MST > rcmcc@whuxi.UUCP (MC_CONNELL) writes: > >If I remember correctly, the natives kept referring to the lead > >character as "Purple." > > "Purple" <- As-i-mauve <- Asimov > >is my interpretation. > > Specifically his (the Human character's) translating machine > renders his name in the language of the natives of the planet as: > "as a purple shade of gray"->"as a mauve"->Asimov, nifty pun. And of course, Asimov loves a good ( or bad ) pun!!! Jeff Sparkes jeff1@garfield Gee... I don't have a cute quote..... ------------------------------ From: dave@garfield.UUCP (David Janes) Subject: Re: Flying Sorcerers Date: Mon, 29 Oct 84 16:09:52 MST | Specifically his (the Human character's) translating machine | renders his name in the lanuguage of the natives of the planet as: | "as a purple shade of gray"->"as a mauve"->Asimov, nifty pun. | -- Stephen C. Woods (VA Wadsworth Med Ctr./UCLA Dept. of | Neurology) It is also interesting to look at the description that is first given of "Purple" in the book. Rather descriptive of the Good Doctor I would say. dave (the Mercenary Programmer) David Janes "Come in, come out of the rain" Internet: dave@garfield.UUCP UUCP: {allegra,ihnp4,utcsrgv}!garfield!dave ------------------------------ From: davidl@orca.UUCP (David Levine) Subject: re:TFS summary--Fol (more expanations of gods in Flying Subject: Sorcerors) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 84 14:42:14 MST My best guess is that Fol, the god of Distortion, is Phil Foglio (pronounced "folio"). Foglio, winner of three (?) Fan Artist hugos, is a cartoonist and caricaturist, ergo a god of distortion. Eccar the Man is definitely Forrie Ackerman, "a mortal (fan) raised up to the status of a god." I am unsure of the significance of the triangle as his symbol. Others not mentioned in the base article: N'veen, god of tides - Larry Niven ("There is a Tide", "Neutron Star") Elcin, "midget god of thunder and loud noises" - Harlan Ellison Rot'n'bair, the god of sheep - Gene Roddenberry (his symbol is the horned box (TV) and his avatar is a malformed changeling (Spock) - my guess is that the sheep are Trekkies) Nils'n, the slime god, enemy of Rot'n'bair - Neilsen (ratings) Filfo-mar, god of rivers - Phillip Jose Farmer ("Riverworld") Caff, god of dragons - Anne McCaffrey ("Dragon{flight,quest,song, etc.}") (There may be more - it's been a few years since I read it.) In addition, all the female natives have the first names of female SF authors. The balloon "Cathawk" and the statement "The Cathawk has landed" seem to imply some kinship with the Eagle of Apollo 11. Oells and Virn, the two suns, are H.G. (not Orson) Welles and Jules Verne. As far as anyone I know has ever determined, there is no fannish meaning to the names Shoogar and Lant, or several other male natives. There also seems to be no god based on David Gerrold. David D. Levine (...decvax!tektronix!tekecs!davidl) [UUCP] (tekecs!davidl.tektronix@csnet-relay.csnet) [ARPA] "APA:DAVID isn't dead, it's just very very very late..." - D.S. Cargo ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov75.DEC Subject: re: FLYING SORCERERS references Date: Sat, 3 Nov 84 22:45:29 MST > From: orca!davidl (David D. Levine) > My best guess is that Fol, the god of Distortion, is Phil Foglio > (pronounced "folio"). Foglio, winner of three (?) Fan Artist > hugos, is a cartoonist and caricaturist, ergo a god of distortion. At the time THE FLYING SORCERERS was published (let alone written) --- 1971 --- Phil was a minor (in the sense of "not very well known") artist, if he was even doing anything at that time. The chances that he would be so honored in TFS is *extremely* unlikely. > The balloon "Cathawk" and the statement "The Cathawk has landed" > seem to imply some kinship with the Eagle of Apollo 11. (How soon they forget) Obviously, the "has landed" bit is a reference to Apollo 11, but the Cathawk business is a reference to Kitty Hawk. Remember the characters of Wilville and Orbur? > As far as anyone I know has ever determined, there is no fannish > meaning to the names Shoogar and Lant,... If I remember correctly, Larry Niven's wife had mentioned in a fanzine once that Shoogar is definitely *not* a reference to anyone in particular. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...}! decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ From: ddb@mrvax.DEC (DAVID DYER-BENNET MRO1-2/L14 DTN 231-4076) Subject: Yngvi Date: Mon, 29 Oct 84 07:48:08 MST It is possible that de Camp and Pratt's Shea stories are the origin of "Yngvi is a louse!!" However, my understanding was that it had a more obscure origin, somewhere in fandom, and was then drawn up into the Harold Shea universe. I'm not positive on this, and I'm not a fanzine collector so I can't really look for references in fandom pre-dating the Shea stories. Anybody have any good references to cite on this? -- David Dyer-Bennet -- ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-mrvax!ddb ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Nov 1984 21:38 EST From: ASP%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Cc: asp%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Death in Silence Combat in vacuum? The problem isn't that silent rayguns are dull, or that an audience won't sit through it, but that you can't play knight-in-shining-armor when the universe around you will kill you if gets a chance. Melodrama, in a place where a rip in your spacesuit costs you everything? Lucas wouldn't have stood a chance. But if somebody could pull it off ... think of the surrealism, the sense of constant danger. Space would never look the same again. --Jim ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 9-Nov SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #199 Date: 9 Nov 84 1515-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #199 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Nov 84 1515-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #199 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 9 Nov 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 199 Today's Topics: Books - Brin & Campbell & Ellison (3 msgs) & Herbert (2 msgs) & Palmer (2 msgs) & Powers & Some Book Reviews, Films - Buckaroo Banzai ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed Nov 7 19:53:34 1984 From: cracraft@sri-tsca Subject: Brin's Startide Rising Someone told me that this has similarities to Varley. True? Stuart ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Nov 84 03:18:31 mst From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley) Subject: Ramsey Campbell's INCARNATE Ramsey Campbell is a British horror writer, and INCARNATE (Tor 1983; 499pp. -- I have the MacMillan hardcover, which is 368pp.) is a decidedly nasty horror novel. But unlike many (most?) other books in the genre, INCARNATE does not depend on gore to make your palms become very wet; in fact there is only one actual murder in the book, and it takes place offstage. The plot, characters and setting are exceedingly realistic, with very little of the cardboard which one often finds strewn among the pages of horror novels. This attention to detail is perhaps somewhat misleading, because the focus of the novel is on dreaming: over the course of the novel the reader's grasp on reality (and sometimes on the narrative) can become rather slim. The story starts with an experiment in predictive dreaming that ends in panic and hysteria. Eleven years later the subjects of the experiments discover that their dreams are starting to invade their waking lives, and evidence begins to accumulate that other people are perceiving their nightmares, and that their actions while asleep are shaping events in the light of day. Will reality survive? Campbell keeps you guessing right up to the last few pages... The only other contemporary horror author who seems to me to have an equivalent sensibility for characters and setting is Stephen King, but Campbell is British, and this makes for a distinctly different tone. I could only think of a couple minor complaints about the style. The story is a bit deliberate in getting its job done; unlike King's works, INCARNATE never lets up for comic relief, never once forgets that every scene is carefully crafted to advance the plot. At the same time, although the novel feels nicely balanced and well structured, it misses the wonderful compactness of narrative which Campbell brings to his short story writing... But all in all it's quite a fun read, and I would strongly recommend it to people who are tired of the chainsaw school of horror writing: '"... You do remember how it was, don't you? You must remember. ... How nobody will be sure what's behind a door until they open it, and how you'll never know where any street leads, and the worst thing you can do will be to ask someone the way..."' Not recommended for paranoid schizophrenics, Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ Date: Thu Nov 8 20:06:02 1984 From: cracraft@sri-tsca Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #197 Ahhhh, SF-LOVERS has touched a nerve again. One day a few years ago, I decided it was time to pick up a book by Ellison. I had read nothing by him. I happened to pick up DEATHBIRD STORIES. I spent the next 6 or 7 hours *TOTALLY* absorbed in this man's universe of contradiction, horror, blasphemy, and black humor. I came away from the experience emotionally exhausted and totally elated. There is good reason for his warning in the early pages not to read too much at one sitting. Harlan Ellison is a great writer. I don't mean good. I mean *GREAT*. I can't tell you how much I have read over the years and how many authors. Ellison has touched me deeply. He has an unrelenting power in linguistic style I have found in no other author except Vladimir Nabokov. Unlike in real-life where it is considered generally unpleasant to constantly touch other people's hot-points, I think this is (or should be) the major goal of fiction, film, and the creative arts in general. Stories and characters should be created that somehow impinge on our idea of what humanity or personalities should be like. Ellison does this to an extremely intense degree. I don't find his stories particularly depressing Sure, they contain an enormous amount of black humor but that makes it less depressing. Many people cannot recognize black humor for what it is and think it is merely a bleak world-view. Take this as an advocacy of decadence. Stuart ------------------------------ Date: Thu Nov 8 20:18:31 1984 From: cracraft@sri-tsca Subject: Ellison's writer's block It was caused by an unusually long emotional depression lasting 10 years. I read about this in a recent LOCUS. Stuart ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Nov 84 09:49 EST From: schneider.WBST@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: Harlan "you're a nobody!" Ellison, SF-LOVERS Digest V9 Um, I like Ellison, but having read "A Boy and His Dog," I wonder if it might be considered anti-social, or at least chauvinistic. Are there any Ellison anthologies available? I haven't seen one since I acquired this morbid interest. ------------------------------ From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Date: 7 Nov 84 13:29:02 EST Subject: Sandworms and Silicon It is unlikely in the extreme that a silicon ecology would evolve on a planet which is as hospitable to humanity as is Dune. The sandworms in particular are not silicon based because 1) They produce a spice which is edible by human beings, and 2) the sandtrout (which are immature sandworms) merge with Leto in God Emperor of Dune. Leto, in effect, becomes a sandworm. No chemistry I know of would allow a creature to be part silicon-based and part carbon-based. But, yeah, it's science fiction, right? Who cares about keeping dumb things like facts straight? --Jeff Duntemann The German Silver Rat ------------------------------ Date: Wed 7 Nov 84 22:04:04-EST From: Rob Austein Subject: Herbert's other good book DOSADI EXPERIMENT is pretty good, although I find it less fun on a reread than DUNE. However, don't be sad that you haven't read WHIPPING STAR; it is a real piece of trash, down there with some of his worst. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Nov 84 10:36:15 PST (Thu) From: Sonia Schwartzberg Subject: Review: "Emergence" by D. Palmer pico review: yum! micro review: Believe the cover captions. Most like Varley, best of Robinson. Mini review: Posterity approves. Good, fun book. Consumed in one sitting; external events (any?) unnoticed. Subject: girl genius and idiot twin avian survive bionuclear "event" in deep hole. Emerge. Discover why (both). Interesting further adventures (refuse to spoil). Authors first!! More, please? ------------------------------ Date: 9 Nov 1984 05:19:33 PST Subject: In search of the AAA From: Steve Rabin David R. Palmer's "Emergence" is a book with much more going for it than the mispelling of "Caltech". -Steve ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Nov 84 21:11:59 mst From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley) Subject: Re: Tim Powers Mea culpa. I have indeed heard of THE DRAWING OF THE DARK but I managed to completely forget about it when writing the review that was mentioned. It helps that I've never seen a copy of it and of course my edition of THE ANUBIS GATES is imprisoned with the rest of my books in a storage locker in San Diego since U of Utah doesn't pay moving fees. (I'm planning a rescue operation next week.) Sorry about the screw-up, Powers fans. Is DARK worth tracking down? Surprised that anyone actually reads my reviews, Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ From: ecl@hocsj.UUCP Subject: Ace SF Specials--a Review Date: Wed, 24 Oct 84 12:17:34 MST Ace Science Fiction Specials Five book reviews by Evelyn C. Leeper Terry Carr and Ace Books have started yet another series of "Ace Science Fiction Specials." The first series gave us such books as LeGuin's LEFT HAND OF DARKNESS and Panshin's RITE OF PASSAGE. Then Ace terminated the series, only to revive it later with such "classics" as Chapman's RED TIDE. Now it's back, and the five books scheduled for the first year have been issued. Here then is my summary of this beginning. THE WILD SHORE by Kim Stanley Robinson This was the first Ace Special, and the best so far. A post-holocaust story, it describes the life of one fairly average teenager (though the term "teenager" has connotations which do not apply in a post-holocaust, low-tech society) and his passage into adulthood. I said at the time that this book could be Hugo material this year, and I still think that's true. It made me expect a lot for the Ace series. GREEN EYES by Lucius Shepard This was somewhat of a let-down after THE WILD SHORE. I was really looking forward to this one, both because of THE WILD SHORE and because it was described as doing for zombies what Martin's FEVRE DREAM did for vampires. However the result was neither fish nor fowl and never captured my full interest; I found the point-of-view changes were disconcerting, and the "scientific explanation" not very convincing. On the other hand, many people liked it. NEUROMANCER by William Gibson Again, not my style of book, though the characters were more memorable than those of GREEN EYES, and the action more interesting. A high-tech story, it goes well with such other stories as Vinge's TRUE NAMES and Gibson's own "Burning Chrome." Though the West Indian dialect of one of the characters was somewhat difficult to follow, the story as a whole moved well. A step up for the Ace series. PALIMPSESTS by Carter Scholz and Glenn Harcourt A palimpsest is a parchment that has been scraped clean and re-written. The idea behind PALIMPSESTS is that history is not straightforward but consists of palimpsests: artifacts that have many different layers of concealed or destroyed truth on them. The main character, Camus (yes, he's related), is an archaeologist who finds an impossibly dense cube in a dig in Germany. The cube, when tested, gives all sorts of conflicting evidence as to its real age. There is a lot of spy thriller action as various interests chase Camus and his girlfriend around to get the cube, and then some "Andromeda Strain" action at a multi-leveled, underground research establishment. There is a lot of pseudo-science about "What is time?" and "What is causality?" and how souls are being reincarnated backwards in time. I've read a fair amount of time-travel/time- paradox novels and this was *still* incoherent. The writing style shows occasional flashes of insight, but the plot doesn't carry it, and Camus spends too much of his time feeling sorry for himself for the reader to really get involved with him. THEM BONES by Howard Waldrop This is the least unusual of the Ace Specials so far. It is a fairly straightforward time travel/alternate history novel with a heavy bent toward adventure. There are three narratives, labeled "Bessie," "Leake," and "The Box." "Bessie" is Bessie Level, an archaeologist working in 1929 Louisiana who discovers horses and rifle cartridges in a burial mound dating between 700 A.D. and 1500 A.D. "Leake" is Madison Yazoo Leake, a post-World War III draftee sent back to pre-World War III to try to prevent its occurrence. Somewhere along the line, however, he jumps the track and lands in the right time (circa 1930), the right place (Louisiana), but the wrong universe (no Roman Empire, no Christianity, and the Arabs have explored the New World). He discovers the Huastecas (Aztecs) are still going strong, human sacrifices and all. "The Box" is a box full of reports written by the rest of Leake's party, who were supposed to follow him into Louisiana. Somehow they've gotten the right place but they've been sidetracked to the wrong time (1100 A.D. give or take a few hundred years). The three threads are "alternated" (or whatever the word is when talking about more than two). Not surprisingly, the most interesting is "Leake" and the rest seem to act as commentary on his rather than independent themes. The portrayal of Huasteca civilization is accurate at first glance, but one glaring error makes me question how accurate the rest is. (Waldrop has Leake ride his horse up the steps of a Huasteca pyramid and down again. Huasteca pyramids have an inclination of between 45 and 60 degrees, and steps only six to eight inches front-to-back. I'd like to see a horse ride up a pyramid like that!) On the plus side, none of the characters ever really knows what is going on. Leake never finds out more than a minimum of what his new world is like. He learns bits and pieces from Arab traders, but there is none of the usual "discussion with the historian" that one often finds in novels of this type. His companions never quite figure out where they are or what's happened to them. They know something's gone wrong, they suspect they're in the wrong time, but they're too busy trying to avoid getting picked off by the natives to spend a lot of time intellectualizing about their situation. Bessie has perhaps the best notion of what's going on, but even she is confused and misled by what she sees. As Connie Willis pointed out at L.A.con II, no one ever sees history, they just see their part of it. By using three threads, Waldrop manages to convey this limitation, while allowing the reader to have more idea of what's going on than any one of the characters. Not a great book, but an enjoyable one, and worth the time. Summary Ace has a good idea here--promoting unusual science fiction books. They are to be commended for publishing the unusual. Del Rey and DAW publish more science fiction than Ace, but there's a certain sameness to it all. I mean, when DAW publishes the twentieth novel by John Norman or C. J. Cherryh (and I'm *not* claiming they're at all similar to each other!), you know what to expect. With the Ace Specials, you don't. You know you'll get something with good points and bad points, maybe an innovative style, maybe a new idea, maybe interesting characters. You don't get something stamped out a cookie cutter. They're not all great, but I'll keep buying them. They're...special. Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!hocsj!ecl ------------------------------ From: mac@tesla.UUCP (Michael Mc Namara) Subject: Re: Buckaroo Banzai - (nf) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 84 21:16:17 MST Saw Buckaroo & his buddies in New Jersey the other week. I have an extra interest in the film, and others starring Peter Weller, as he used to take care of me and my sisters while our parents were away when we all lived in Germany in the early sixties. I think the film's a lot better than, although comparisons are difficult, considering the film's basic plot differences, one of his earlier films, "Just Tell Me What You Want", which he played across (and with) Ali McGraw. Peter has been on Broadway a lot, and does films occasionally. It's good to see your old babysitter on the silver screen... ..!cornell!tesla!mac Michael Mc Namara @ Cornell University ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 13-Nov SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #200 Date: 13 Nov 84 0940-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #200 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 13 Nov 84 0940-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #200 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 13 Nov 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 200 Today's Topics: Books - Benford & Ellison (3 msgs) & Herbert (2 msgs) & Palmer & Saberhagen & Bad Fiction & Story Recommendation & Story Request, Films - Buckaroo Banzai, Miscellaneous - Silicon Chemistry & Mars Needs Women Song & Worldcon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri 9 Nov 84 21:16:14-EST From: Wang Zeep Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #198 There is another artifact-based story coming from Greg Benford. He was at MIT last week and mentioned that his latest will (partially set at MIT and BU) concern a strange artifact. MIT gets into the book because of its fine archaeological materials faculty, although he got the lab in the wrong place. wz (Element 127 - wolframzeppelium) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Nov 1984 16:08 EST From: ASP%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: *H*A*R*L*A*N* *E*L*L*I*S*O*N*, *D*E*M*I*G*O*D* I don't know. Writers who inspire such fanatic, unquestioning devotion seem somehow suspect to begin with. As long as we're throwing ad hominem attacks at each other, I, personally, doubt the "humanness" of anyone who doubts the "humanness" of anyone else for doubting the "humanness" of another's works. (figure that one out :-) No HE like THE HE, no? (tee hee) --Jim ------------------------------ Date: Sat 10 Nov 84 00:52:29-EST From: Janice Eisen Subject: Harlan Ellison and "A Boy and his Dog" Reply-to: mdc.janice@mit-oz Deciding that Ellison is "antisocial and chauvinistic" on the basis of this short story violates the First Commandment of criticism: Thou Shalt Not Confuse the Author With His Characters. An author's creation of a sexist/racist/antisocial/warmongering/cat-hating character (or society for that matter) tells you nothing very much about the author. But then, Harlan seems to elicit such reactions. One of his stories, "Croatoan," managed the amazing feat of simultaneously pissing off both pro-choice and anti-abortion folk. I have read all of Ellison's stuff that I can get my hands on, and reread it regularly. I firmly believe he is a *great* writer whose work can stand alongside the classics (not all of it, of course, but even Shakespeare had off days). I would hardly call "I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream" typical, by the way; it is probably the most extremely viscerally revolting of all his stories. And anyone who thinks his stories demonstrate Ellison doesn't understand love or sensitivity should read "The Deathbird," particularly the segment of it titled "AHBHU." For real Ellison fans, or anyone who likes good essays for that matter, a collection of some of the best of Ellison's nonfiction has recently appeared. It's called SLEEPLESS NIGHTS IN THE PROCRUSTEAN BED. I'm not sure of the publisher, but I'm sure jayembee or someone can enlighten us ... Janice ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 12 Nov 1984 14:41:39-PST From: janzen%pipa.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: Harlan Ellison and fans At the convention in Los Angeles a couple months ago, Harlan Ellison gave a speech about the rude, nasty, and criminal things that science-fiction fans do to their idols. They write anonymous hate letters (Harlan identified one and scared him to death by promising to do something someday), sign up the authors' home address for all sorts of awful magazines, steal the authors' property if invited into the author's home (probably for souvenirs), also throw vomit in authors' faces at conventions, and say rude and thoughtless things to authors at conventions. One author who allowed a fan to sleep in his house (I don't understand that either) found later his daughter had been raped by the fan in the night. Ellison's front door was egged by a prankster (hours after Ellison had talked about the beautifully carved doors on a local science-fiction talk show (Hour25 on KPFK). There was more, but you don't want to know, and my memory has graciously failed me here. Let's treat these authors with respect and help protect their privacy. Tom Janzen ------------------------------ Date: 8 Nov 84 01:52:00 EST From: Bob Webber Subject: Herbert's Fiction Having seen so many notes on the writings of Frank Herbert, I find it odd that no one has mentioned his best work, i.e., THE GODMAKERS (1972 G.P.Putnam's Sons, Berkley edition/ Sept '78, 12th printing/ July 1981). This work combines a moderately interesting plot with the pseudo-religious quotations that are the real reason people read Herbert. For example, midway through the book, we find the following quotation: Those who seek knowledge for the sake of reward, yea even to the knowledge of Psi, repeat the errors of the primitive religions. Knowledge gained out of fear or hope of reward holds you in a basket of ignorance. Thus the ancients learned to falsify their lives. ---- Sayings of the ABBODS, The Approach to Psi Such quotations change from a mere stylistic device to lend verisimilitude (e.g., Asimov's Encyclopedia Galactica) to intruding to the extent of becoming the whole point of the book. I know that once I had skimmed the quotes in Herbert's latest Dune Revisited, I knew I had read all that was of interest there. Given such a viewpoint, questions of scientific accuracy in Herbert's religious (science?) fiction seem as irrelevant as creationism. BOB (webber@rutgers.arpa) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Nov 1984 21:32 EST From: ASP%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: binder%dosadi.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA Subject: Militarily applicable technology Date: Friday, 2 November 1984 16:29-EST From: binder%dosadi.DEC at decwrl.ARPA To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC Re: Will the DUNE controversy never end? ARRGGH! The most serious violation of the Convention possible, as pointed out just before the final battle in DUNE, is the use of atomics against people. Nuking the hypothetical outsiders isn't a viable option. As for scruples against the use of guns, Baron Harkonnen seems not to have had any such, and his invasion of Arrakis with artillery was therefore quite effective. True. But the stated primary purpose of the weapons was not deterrence, but fighting off non-human intelligences if they ever arrived. DUNE had no human outsiders; it is this closedness that makes the Butlerian restriction possible. I did not intend to imply that guns were tabu as well; this was purely a part of my historical example. However, on every planet in the system *except Arrakis* (where shields' attractiveness to sandworms made their use dangerous), guns were effectively useless. It is a credit to the Baron's intelligence/cunning/tactics that he was capable of employing such an obscure weapon to good effect in the one situation where it would be usable. > ... To what purpose can a computer be employed when any > weapon more powerful than a broadsword is ineffective, > suicidal, or both? Fire control for bows and arrows? Aw, c'mon now, this surmise borders on idiocy. Consider the hunter- seeker that was used in the initial attempt on Paul's life. That was a little more sophisticated than a broadsword, I'll wager. If such weapons are possible, what is the law of nature that says an electronically aimed slow pellet cannon (whose projectiles explode once inside a shield) won't work? Such a device, controlled by even a stupid automaton, could wreak havoc. The key question here, then, is rather at what point of sophistication said fire-control engine becomes a machine built in the image of a man's mind - that is what the Butlerian Jihad destroyed and the O.C. Bible prohibits. I think that this is the point where we have to step back a bit from DUNE itself and consider the author's intent. Sure, you can build slow missiles, but what impact will they have on the story? Most of DUNE's power comes from Herbert's translation of an Arabian-Nights setting into SF terms. "Hi-tech" (stillsuits, etc., excluded) *must* be both suspect and esoteric, or it ceases to be a thematic equivalent of magic. Had Herbert written DUNE as an allegory of WW2, maybe. (As far as that goes, I'm sure Herbert could easily have bullshitted in some obscure characteristic of shields (they fry computers, maybe?) to eliminate it. It's a trivial enough point that I wouldn't even bother to accuse him of oversight though.) --Jim ------------------------------ Date: 10 Nov 1984 09:47:16-EST From: uucp at CCC Subject: Palmer's Emergence Having read both the stories ``Emergence'' is based on, and having nominated and voted both for the Hugo, I have to say I was happy with the resulting novel. I'd have to say the pacing of the book is one of it's big points. Palmer is very good at spacing action out with long narratives to keep the pacing even. Also, various and sundry events keep the book from degrading into ``Candy takes a vacation''. Apropos comments about Heinlein-like supercharacters: Candy is bright. Candy is strong. However, unlike most of RAH's super-characters, Candy is not perfect. She screws up, misjudges people, etc. And, most important, she has self-doubts. Frequently. No Heinlein superman ever stopped to think if they were doing the right thing. Also, Candy gets *very* scared on several occasions. The key to creating a post-homo superior race is in making it still have the homo half (anyone making dirty jokes stays after school). That is, they must still seem human, and have human problems. They can be smarter and stronger, but must still seem to be like us. I had hundreds of times the compassion and ability to relate to Candy than I did for Joe from Heinlein's Gulf, even given the sex difference. *** Spoiler Warning *** Finally, I realy hadn't the slightest idea whether she would survive her re-entry. *That* strikes me as good writing. And, importantly, I really cared. James M. Turner lmi-capricorn!jmturn%ccc@MIT-MC uucp: physics!mitccc!lmi-capricorn!jmturn ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Nov 84 14:08 CST From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: The Book of Swords The complete set of The Book of Swords is the current selection of the Science Fiction Book Club. My notice came yesterday. For those of you who wish a copy, find a friend who is a member, or whatever. Just thought you'd like to know. Brett Slocum ("Risk ... risk is our business.") ------------------------------ Date: Fri Nov 9 11:53:06 1984 From: cracraft@sri-tsca Cc: pourne@mit-mc Subject: fiction that I hate This is frequently the sort of fiction assigned in 'masterpieces' literature courses at universities. It is the sort of fiction that is "folksy", or "cute", or "down-home." I think, for the most part (no matter who has written it), it is the most useless and boring garbage I have ever read. We get stock characters, although distorted in various sophisticated ways so as to make them less "stock", but I see through that ruse and despise it nevertheless. I have had to put up with so much of this over the years that when I get back to really good fiction like Silverberg's DYING INSIDE or Harlan Ellison's DEATHBIRD STORIES, I revel in the fact that literature is not dead. Stuart ------------------------------ Date: Fri 9 Nov 84 13:08:29-PST From: Bruce Subject: Bridges for sale > From: knight@rlgvax.UUCP (Steve Knight) > By the way . . . have I got a bridge for *you*! If you really think you have a bridge to sell, I highly recommend reading the story "Bernie the Faust." I can't recall the author right off, but the story has appeared in several anthologies. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Nov 1984 08:58:48-EST From: carol at mit-cipg at mit-mc Subject: The Steiger Effect I'm trying to locate a story, possibly called 'The Steiger Effect' in which Earth sells machinery and/or electronics to aliens. The aliens take the goods back to their planet, and find that none of them work. A guy named Steiger is sent to discover why, and he figures out that there is an effect, named later after him, that a device only works if there is someone around who has some inkling of how it works. The solution is that humans have to be stationed on the aliens' planet to induce the stuff to work. I may have the plot wrong - the thing I remember is the Steiger Effect. Does anyone recognise this story? Who wrote it, and where was it published? ------------------------------ From: moriarty@fluke.UUCP (The Napoleon of Crime) Subject: Re: Re: Buckaroo Banzai, Babysitter Date: Sun, 28 Oct 84 19:21:51 MST > It's good to see your old babysitter on the silver screen... Ah, protecting innocents even then... is it any wonder that we'd follow him anywhere? Seriously, do you know if he played a Jewish Nazi (!) in an episode of Lou Grant? I saw it the other night, but missed the credits. After "Firstborn", boasting that he was your babysitter may be something of a claim to bravery... :-) "It's not MY GODDAMN PLANET, Monkey Boy!" Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc. UUCP: {cornell,decvax,ihnp4,sdcsvax,tektronix,utcsrgv}!uw-beaver \ {allegra,gatech!sb1,hplabs!lbl-csam,decwrl!sun,ssc-vax} -- !fluke!moriarty ARPA: fluke!moriarty@uw-beaver.ARPA ------------------------------ From: lhasa!stew@harvard.ARPA Date: 9 Nov 84 22:35 EST Subject: Silicon chemistry There's nothing wrong, chemically, with carbon-silicon combinations. Organic chemists make organosilicon compounds all the time. The big problem with silicon based compounds is that the Si-Si bond is quite weak. All the strong silicon compounds (glass, etc.) contain lattices of silicon-oxygen-silicon units. There are good chemical reasons why carbon is the major constituent of living organisms. In fact, I find life such as that found in Dr. Bob Forward's "Dragon's Egg" more plausible than non-carbon based life, but maybe only because I know less about nuclear than organic chemistry... Though, speaking of Forward, his next book is about Silicon based life living on an interesting planet in the Barnard's Star system. He spends a great deal more time discussing the planetary system than the chemistry of the inhabitants, though. Stew rubenstein@harvard.arpa ihnp4!harvard!rubenstein ------------------------------ Date: Fri 9 Nov 84 23:07:12-CST From: Douglas Good Subject: Re: MARS NEEDS WOMEN One thing that might be of interest (or might not) is the fact that there is a song entitled Mars Needs Women on Peter Wolf's newest album. It has absolutely no significance that I know of. --Doug ------------------------------ Date: Sat Nov 10 12:00:37 1984 From: cracraft@sri-tsca Subject: Worldcon in Australia I would like to find out when and where the worldcon in Australia will be. I wouldn't normally go so far, but a good friend of mine lives down under and it will be an extra excuse to visit. Stuart ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 15-Nov SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #201 Date: 15 Nov 84 1020-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #201 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 15 Nov 84 1020-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #201 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 15 Nov 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 201 Today's Topics: Art - SF Artists, Books - Donaldson & Ellison & Heinlein & Herbert (2 msgs) & Knight & Kurtz & LeGuin & Palmer, Films - Buckaroo Banzai, Radio - SF Programs, Miscellaneous - Combat in a Vacuum (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14 Nov 1984 11:17:23-EST From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford Subject: SF artists. Recent comments on the cover of the new edition of THE PERSISTENCE OF VISION inspired me to post this. I agree with those comments, by the way; the new cover is almost laughable compared to the original. Anyone know if the SF Book Club still offers their edition of the book? Like the Dell paperback, its jacket had the same illo as the original Dial Press edition. And whatever happened to Dial Press anyway? But before I digress further.... A recent Locus contained results of a readers' poll; one category was best artist. Results follow: points ------ 1) Michael Whelan 2054 2) Rowena Morrill 1141 3) Don Maitz 576 4) Barclay Shaw 545 5) Boris Vallejo 413 6) Darrell Sweet 335 7) Victoria Poyser 268 8) Val Lakey Lindahn 253 9) Kelly Freas 239 10) Carl Lundgren 238 11) Alicia Austin 221 12) Vincent DiFate 193 13) Jim Burns 188 14) David Mattingly 180 15) The Dillons 153 16) Stephen Fabian 141 17) Frank Frazetta 123 18) Tom Kidd 122 19) Phil Foglio 117 20) Kevin Johnson 114 20) A. Gilliland 114 I was a bit disappointed to see Whelan at the top (just as I was to see him take the Hugo again this year). Yeah, he's good; but personally I feel that lately he's let his quality slip in favor of quantity, and I consider the former more important. But my really big disappointment was that Stephen Hickman did not even make the list! Honestly, I was mystified! Hickman's done some fine work: covers for several of Ardath Mayhar's books, also for JHEREG and YENDI by Stephen Brust. My own favorite is his cover for the Ace edition of IN IRON YEARS by Gordon R. Dickson. Hickman deserves some recognition; anyone else feel similarly? Or have related comments? My nomination for most delightful cover of the year: that of THE DIGGING LEVIATHAN by James P. Blaylock (Ace). It's by Jim Gurney (a newcomer as far as I know, but one who's coming up fast; I've already seen at least two covers by him for Baen/Tor, one for DAW, and he did the December F&SF (the big dragon)). Imagine (if you can) Norman Rockwell illustrating one of Burroughs' Pellucidar novels --- wonderful! --- Jeff Rogers jcr@mitre-bedford ------------------------------ Subject: King Donaldson Date: Mon, 12 Nov 84 18:17:25 EST From: Charles Martin ... contains an awful piece by King ... I hate to tell you this (actually, I love to tell you this, being a King fan, myself), but the story you just described, "What Makes Us Human" [no "?"], in the August 1984 of F&SF is by Stephen R. Donaldson, *not* Stephen King. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) Well, I guess that's the kind of thing that makes us human. Let's hope Donaldson's had his fill of SF writing. (Oh my, I hope that doesn't offend anyone ... ) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Nov 84 09:22 EST From: schneider.WBST@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: Eisen's (et al) message regarding Ellison SF-LOVERS Subject: Digest Cc: mdc.janice@mit-oz.ARPA Oooo, Janice, I didn't say I had decided Ellison was a chauvanist, anti-social, or any such thing. But the feminine reaction to "A Boy and His Dog" in these parts has been humorously extreme: L. Q. Jones's movie version was picketed by NOW when it played at the Univ. of Rochester, and my girlfriend refuses to read it. From this context, the enjoyment of such works could be viewed as antisocial and chauvinistic. And so I have been told... As to the "You're a nobody" quotation: Ellison blurted this out upon being introduced to Issac Asimov. (i think it was IA) I believe this episode is related in the intro to "Again, Dangerous Visions". I meant this only as an allusion to the public response to the Ellison work I am most familiar with. I'm still looking for Ellison anthologies... Regards zot ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Nov 84 13:27 MST From: Charlie Spitzer Subject: JOB: A Comedy of Justice (R A Heinlein) Cc: "{forum >udd>bm>mtgs>books.control}"@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA I just finished reading this. It starts off ok, but loses its' place in the middle and finishes terribly. Unless you're a diehard Heinlein fan, don't bother with this one. charlie spitzer (spitzer%pco@cisl-service-multics) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Nov 84 13:49:30 EST From: Nick Simicich Subject: Science vs Story, and Dune in Particular. Dave cannot directly access CSNET, so I'm relaying his contribution. Date: 13 November 1984, 09:11:02 CST From: David W. Marquart 47K/050-3 Rochester MN 55901 A couple of comments about the debate on Science vs. Story, with the Dune books in particular: I like a wide range of SF and fantasy, ranging from 'hard' to 'soft' and all of the unclassifiable subgenres. Scientific errors don't spoil stories for me (unless they are to the point of stupidity), and analysis of the science or lack thereof in a story doesn't spoil it either. My friends and I enjoy such analysis, and often do it at conventions. (We wonder such things as whether the satellite with the rebel base on it in Star Wars would break up because it was too close to its primary.) Those not interested in such discussions don't participate. Somewhere in the books there was a speculation that the sandworms were not indigenous to the planet, and that they had destroyed an earlier ecosystem after their (unexplained) introduction. This is in response to the comment that they could not have evolved on the planet. I think that science is important, and that stories should not throw science to the wind. On the other hand, there are many good stories that postulate changes to physical laws, or introduce new science that lets us 'get around' current limitations, etc. The important thing is to make it believable. I can accept fantasy, new universes, new machines, etc., but not gross insults to my intelligence. The problem here is that everyone defines that differently. On Dune in general, I like the first book and thought that the rest of the series was a long decline. David Marquart 2115 23rd st NW, Rochester MN 55901 "just south of the glacier" I'd rather have a free bottle in front of me than a prefrontal lobotomy. ------------------------------ Date: Wed 14 Nov 84 01:43:32-EST From: Larry Seiler Subject: Quotations at the heads of chapters Several authors use this trick, and I enjoy it. It can be used (as Herbert did in Dune) to give background information and impressions without interrupting the story flow. And it's fun to pay close attention to them on a reread, to catch all the foreward references that they usually contain. BUT - to say that they are the point of the book, and the most interesting part? If so, then GODMAKERS could have been a lot shorter - just print the quotations and leave out the plot. Once they reached the religion planet, I didn't like the book all that well. Guess if I'd liked the chapter head quotes, I might have liked the rest better. Larry ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 12 Nov 1984 14:39:05-PST From: janzen%pipa.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: I See You by Damon Knight If someone asked about a story about a device that allowed people to see any place or time, it was "I See You" by Damon Knight and is in Best Science fiction #6 by Terry Carr. I like it because of the reference to Natalie Wood. Tom ------------------------------ Date: 13 Nov 1984 13:50 EST (Tue) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" Subject: Deryni Anyone know when the next book, "The King's Justice", is due out? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Nov 84 11:36 EST From: Jonathan Ostrowsky Subject: Who put the K. in Ursula K.? From: jrrt@hogpd.UUCP (R.MITCHELL) Subject: Summarizing the TFS responses Date: Tue, 23 Oct 84 09:02:40 MDT "Kronk" may well refer to Walter Cronkite, as most people suggested, but I'm sure a more appropriate diety for The Future could be found among all the unused SF authors. One person offered Groff Conklin. (What *does* the K in Ursula K. LeGuin stand for?) K. is for Kroeber. LeGuin's father was Alfred Kroeber, a noted anthropologist. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Nov 1984 23:50-EST From: Dan Hoey Subject: Re: Palmer's Emergence Cc: umcp-cs!allegra!physics!mitccc!lmi-capricorn!jmturn at NRL-AIC Date: 10 Nov 1984 09:47:16-EST From: James M Turner Apropos comments about Heinlein-like supercharacters: Candy is bright. Candy is strong. However, unlike most of RAH's super-characters, Candy is not perfect. She screws up, misjudges people, etc. And, most important, she has self-doubts. Frequently. No Heinlein superman ever stopped to think if they were doing the right thing. Also, Candy gets *very* scared on several occasions. Funny, the Emergence stories looked like a Podkayne clone to me. I can't quote you chapter and verse, but your description of C is exactly my vague recollection of P. Podkayne seemed unfinished, though, and there I think Emergence wins. But I think the best female adolescence story I've read is Panshin's Rite of Passage. Dan ------------------------------ Date: 14 Nov 1984 11:14:42-EST From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford Subject: Buckaroo Banzai's other role. Haven't seen this in the digest yet, and so just in case some of you are unaware of it, here goes.... Peter Weller also stars in a more recently released film, "Firstborn." Though not a fantasy or SF film in any way, it is (and this is more important anyway) a very, very good film, with several excellent performances, of which Weller's is by no means the least. For what it's worth, I recommend it highly. --- Jeff Rogers jcr@mitre-bedford ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 12 Nov 1984 14:42:21-PST From: janzen%pipa.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: Stop me if you've heard this one ANNOUNCER: Listener-sponsored Pacifica radio for all of southern California, this is KPFK, Los Angeles, ninety-point seven on your FM dial, Dolby-B encoded, twenty-four hours a day. (beat) It's ten o'clock on a Friday night, and time for science fact, science fantasy, and science fiction on Hour twenty-five, with your hosts Mike Hodel, Mel Gilden, and Terry Hodel with the Science- Fiction Calendar. It's the first Friday of the month, and as always Linda Strawn will be here with Future Watch at ten thirty. Then a groovy intro where the "Group Mind" is engaged like a NASA launch. Then Mike and Mel goof off for a couple minutes, then tell what the next five shows will be about, then read a couple quick articles from the magazines and newspapers about sf, then by 10:20 or 10:40 Terry Hodel (the ex mrs. mike) does five or so minutes of science-fiction etc. events for the week, then about 10:45 the guest of the evening comes on and Mike and Mel interview them. The guest is usually a biggie in the field. Harlan Ellison is on a lot because he lives nearby, or he calls in with something. David Gerrold, whose secretary I tried to date without knowing she was his secretary, lives a little further and is on sometimes. Bradbury is on every so often, and he once told me I tell a good ghost story, which I did over the phone last halloween (Twain's Golden Arm from how to tell a story). They talk about the writing field (both hosts are pro writers), getting started, about movies and that field. They open the phones and the listeners (the Group Mind, or G.M.) ask tough questions and give information. the engineer for the show is Burt Handlesman, Crack Engineer (or just C.E.). This goes on for two hours solid, except the first friday when the incredible brilliant and attractive Linda is on, talking to "people that watch the future". Don't you wish you were going to be in L.A. next Friday night? Tom Janzen DEC Marlboro MA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Nov 84 15:28 CST From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re : Death in Silence To: ASP%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Just thought I'd clear something up. I was refering to ship-to-ship combat, not man-to-man combat. I agree with you about the potential excitement that could be generated, if it (hand-to-hand or man-to-man combat in vacuum) was done right. I remember a novel by Ben Bova called The Duelists (or something like that) in which two people would hook themselves up to a direct brain stimulation unit to duel. The machine could generate any environment or situation in the minds of the participants, and they would fight each other in their heads. Kind of like video games in the brain. When you killed your opponent in the simulation, the duel was over and both were alive. In one such duel, the environment was the surface of a small asteroid, and the duelists were in vacc suits. The first to breach the other's suit would win the duel. It was very interesting book, and that scene illustrates the kind of thing about which you are talking. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Nov 1984 20:14 EST From: ASP%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Mortal Combat Gee, I alway thought ship-to-ship combat was mortal ... perhaps I haven't played enough videogames lately. On a more serious note, the big problem with skiffy movies as a genre is that they seem to be mostly drawn from the WWI fighter pilot archetype (or, on occasion, the WW2 protracted naval engagement movie). While this is a reasonable source, it requires things like noise in a vacuum, "fighters" with wings, a consistently maintained "up", etc., to pull it off. There is, fortunately, an existing precedent for the kind of combat that one would be likely to see in space, although (with the exception of one relatively bad Star Trek episode) no one that I know of has done much with it; this is the submarine warfare movie, along the lines of _Run Silent, Run Deep_ or, more recently, _Das Boot_. You don't have to be swimming for the water to drown you. And you don't have to be in a spacesuit, fighting with switchblades, for space to feel dangerous. --Jim ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 19-Nov SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #202 Date: 19 Nov 84 1142-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #202 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Nov 84 1142-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #202 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 19 Nov 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 202 Today's Topics: Books - Donaldson & Heinlein & Niven & Tenn & The Flying Sorceror (3 msgs), Television - Star Trek ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri 16 Nov 84 09:35:16-EST From: Nancy Lynn Connor Subject: Stephen R. Donaldson Actually he has written some good works... he wrote "The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever". I will say however, that the second chronicles are not of the same quality as the first. In the first of the two trilogies he writes about magic, giants, and a very real love of the Land, in such a way as to put you there. It had a good measure of pain and suffering, but that was leavened with hope and joy. In the second trilogy, after Covenant has saved the Land (with great pain and cost to everyone involved), the Land again needs saving... but this time he is not to be the central character. A new one is brought in, and this changes the viewpoint drastically. This would not be a bad thing, in and of itself, but there is too much emphasis on blood, evil, and perversion. So, while I wouldn't necessarily recommend the second trilogy, I would recommend the first. It is fantasy, but for those who love unlikely heros, and a quest with many sidetracks into good character development, these would be for you. -Nancy Connor ------------------------------ Date: 16 Nov 84 12:49:41 EST (Friday) Subject: RE: JOB: A Comedy of Justice (R A Heinlein) From: Brenda "I just finished reading this. It starts off ok, but loses its' place in the middle and finishes terribly. Unless you're a diehard Heinlein fan, don't bother with this one. charlie spitzer (spitzer%pco@cisl-service-multics)" I disagree entirely!! I thought this was the best book Heinlein's written in years and would recommend it to anyone interested in religion, Heinlein, or just a good story. Of course, I could be prejudiced because he picked out all of the things about Christianity that I have always been uncomfortable with, and gave plausible alternative explanations that I liked a lot. I should say that a friend of mine, who also thought it was an excellent book, pointed out that the dialog was unnatural at times, but the story is great. ******MINI-SPOILER******* If you liked the world view in "The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag", you should definitely read this book. ~Brenda It was mighty foggy outside of Rochester a few weeks ago....... ------------------------------ Date: 14 Nov 1984 11:13:16-EST From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford Subject: SF -- keeping facts straight. I must agree with Jeff Duntemann's most recent comment in which he writes: "...it's science fiction, right? Who cares about keeping dumb things like facts straight?" I mean, how can it be worth reading if it's not firmly based in current scientific theory? Why, one of the greatest charlatans of all time is Larry Niven, who has somehow managed to convince people that he's a writer of hard SF. Even the most cursory examination of his most popular work, RINGWORLD, will reveal that this is not so. "Scrith," indeed! The existence of such a substance has absolutely no foundation in current theory; it's utter fantasy! If Niven knew any physics at all, he wouldn't insult our intelligence by throwing such unexplained stupidities at us. And considering how important the substance is to the novel's plot, I've no choice but to throw RINGWORLD on the dungheap along with all other such fantastic trash. But even Niven's work is not as bad as what's openly classed as fantasy. Talk about throwing scientific theory to the winds! Reality itself is not safe in that genre. Thank god fantasy and SF are two distinct genres, with no blurring, no continuous spectrum, between them. That would be unbearable! OK. I've gone on long enough. Forgive me. It's just that I tire of the negative remarks concerning DUNE, and I genuinely feel that the discussion has reached the point of ... pointlessness. --- Jeff Rogers jcr@mitre-bedford [ Hi, Dwight Bartholomew. Remember me? ] ------------------------------ From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Date: 15 Nov 84 15:26:38 EST Subject: Bernie the Faust! Bernie the Faust is perhaps the best work of William Tenn, who also wrote the so-so novel OF MEN AND MONSTERS and a memorable tale called "On Venus, Do We Have a Rabbi." Ballantine released a set of six books by Tenn back when I was in college, with very distinctive covers. Uneven stuff, from howlers like Bernie to any number of things that fall utterly flat. I believe the author's real name is Phil Klass, and much of his fiction has a distinctly Jewish flavor. I heard him speak at a con some years back and he was sensational. If you can find something called "The Masculinist Revolt", read it. But strap yourself into your chair first... --Jeff Duntemann Oh, rats. Out of metals. ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 15 Nov 1984 11:53:12-PST From: wasser_1%viking.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (John A. Wasser) Subject: Cast of "Flying Sorcerers" Here is the (hopefully) complete cast of characters from "The Flying Sorcerers" as derived from earlier postings in SF-LOVERS and a re-reading of the book. Please let me know if anyone is missing or if any of the information is inaccurate. Note that persons marked "(deceased)" are the ones who are dead when their names are first mentioned. Locals: Lant the Bonemonger (later turned Speaker of the Upper Village) (full name: Lant-la-lee-lay-lie-ah-no) The story is told from Lant's point of view. Shoogar the Magician (trained by Alger) Wilville and Orbur, the bicycle makers (eldest sons of Lant) Wilbur and Orville Wright (also bicycle makers) Pilg the Crier Damd the Tree-Binder Ang the Frog Grader (later turned Fish-Farmer and Net-tender) Thran the Speaker (deceased) Tavit the Shepherd (deceased) Ran'll the Quaff-Maker (deceased) Froo the Shepherd Jark the Quaff-Maker Hinc the Weaver Hinc the Lesser (a.k.a. Lesser Hinc) Hinc's half brother, later called Hinc the Hairless because he argued with Shoogar... Gortik the Speaker (of the Lower Village) Lesta the Weaver (head of the Weavers Caste (later the Clothmakers Guild)) Dorthi the Magician (deceased) (classmate of Shoogar... student of Alger) Trone the Copersmith Bellis the Potter Farg the Weaver Ford the Digger (deceased) Grimm the Tailor Pran the Carpenter Zone the Vendor Little Gortik (probably son of Gortik) Snarg Kif Totty Goldin Old Khart, the lead ram of the flock The Visitor: His speakerspell translates his name as: "as a color, shade of purple gray" He is known throughout the book as Purple. The Suns: Ouells, the blue sun H. G. Wells Virn, the red sun Jules Vern The Gods: Most if not all of the Gods are named after Science Fiction luminaries. The names given below are the best fit that I've heard so far... If you have a better choice, please let me know so I can update this list. I could also use some more justification for the names given... many are just there because of a similarity of pronunciation. Fineline, God of Engineers and Architects Robert Heinlin? Brad, God of the Past Ray Bradburry? Pull'nissin, God of Duels Paul Anderson? Klarther, God of the Skies and Seas Arthur C. Clark? Hitch, God of the Birds Alfred Hitchcock (for the movie "The Birds") Blok, God of Violence ??????? Tis'turzhin, God of Love ??????? Leeb, God of Magic Fritz Lieber? Musk-watz, God of Winds Sam Moskowitz, the author/editor/fan/critic/historian. Furman, God of Fasf Ed Ferman, a former editor of FANTASY AND SCIENCE FICTION Po, the Causer of Decay Edgar Allen Poe Peers, "a mad demon who gnashes and gnarls mightily" Ruler of the mountain chain called the "Teeth of Despair" ?????? Fol, God of Distortion Fredric Pohl? Phil Foglio? (winner of three (?) Fan Artist hugos. He is a cartoonist and caricaturist, ergo a god of distortion) Tukker, God of Names Wilson Tucker? Yake, God of What-if John Jakes? Eccar the Man: An arrangement of moons. His symbol is the triangle. A mortal who became a god. Forrest J. Ackerman (why the triangle) Kronk, God of the Future Walter Cronkite? (hosted "the 21st century") Groff Conklin? Poup, God of Fertility Jerry Pournelle? pop (as in Population)? N'veen, God of Tides and Patron of Mapmakers Larry Niven ("There is a Tide", "Neutron Star") Elcin, "Oh Great and Tiny God of Lightning and Loud Noises" Harlan Ellison Rotn'bair, God of Sheep: symbol is the horned box. favored son is the deformed changeling. Gene Roddenberry (horned box = TV, deformed changeling = Spock, sheep = Trekkies) Nils'n, God of the Mud Creatures: symbol is "%", enemy of Rotn'bair. Neilson (ratings) Sp'ree, Ruler of Slime Norman Spinrad? Filfo-mar, God of Rivers Phillip Jose Farmer ("Riverworld") Caff, God of Dragons Anne McCaffrey ("Dragonriders of Pern") Other notes: All the female natives (who have names at all) seem to have the names of female SF authors: Kate (Wilhelm?) Judy (?) Anne (?) Ursula (K. LeGuin) Karen (?) Andre (?) Marian (Zimmer Bradley) Leigh (?) Miriam (?) Sonya (?) Zenna (Henderson) Joanna (?) Quinn (?) They are given names by Purple so he can tell them apart as native women normally have no names. Wilville and Orbur are bicycle builders who help to design and build a flying machine (hydrogen balloon). The balloon is named "Cathawk" by Purple. Probably the best translation he could get for "Kitty Hawk" "The Cathawk has landed" seem to imply some kinship with the Eagle of Apollo 11. The word "yngvi" is used to mean "louse". The origin of this may be L. Sprague de Camp and Fletcher Pratt's stories of Harold Shea -- in one of which a mad prisoner in a dungeon shouts, every hour on the hour, "Yngvi is a louse!!" Dorthi, the Magician of one of the island villages, died when Purple fell from the sky and landed on him. Purple becomes the new Magician and gets Dorthi's "scarlet sandals" as a badge of office. Sound familiar? Two of Shoogars magic implements are the "filk-singer flute" and the "appas" (APA's... get it). John A. Wasser Digital Equipment Corporation ARPAnet:WASSER%VIKING.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Usenet: {allegra,Shasta,decvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-viking!wasser USPS: LJO2/E4 30 Porter Rd Littleton, MA 01460 ------------------------------ Date: Fri 16 Nov 84 01:12:42-EST From: Peter G. Trei Subject: The Flying Sorcerers My interest piqued by the recent letters in SFL, I pulled down my copy of The Flying Sorcerers (by David Gerrold and Larry Niven), and reread it while keeping notes on the fannish in-jokes. (I first read it in 75', before I was really aware of fandom). I think this is a more or less exhaustive list of the characters, with as many of the real names as possible attached. I certainly did not get all of these myself; many came from the earlier letters published in this space. ** slight spoiler ** Major characters: As a color, shade of Purple-grey (Purple) Issac Asimov Lant-la-lee-lay-ah-no (Lant) ? Shoogar the Magician ? (has a 'filk-singer' flute). Wilville and Orbur Wilbur & Orville (Wright) Other natives: Pilg the Crier Hinc the weaver Damd the tree binder Ran'll the Quaff-maker Tavit the shepherd Ang the frog grader Trone the coppersmith Bellis the potter Lesta the weaver Ford the digger Grimm the tailor Little Gortik Big Gortik Zone the vendor Farg the weaver Dorthi: a magician, whom Purple kills by falling from the sky, crushing his house. He wore scarlet sandals, which Purple inherited. Obviously a reference to OZ. Old Alger, a magician. Gods: Musk-Watz, the wind-god Sam Moskowitz N'veen, god of tides, patron of mapmakers Larry Niven Rotn'bair, god of sheep. sign: horned box (TV) Gene Rodenberry Deformed changeling (Spock?) is his favored son. Nils'n, god of mud creatures. sign: % Harry Neilson Enemy of Rotn'bair. Filfo-mar, the river god Phil Farmer Eccar the Man Forry Ackerman? served the gods so well he was raised to godhood himself. Symbol: triangle. Elcin, the great and tiny god of thunder. Harlan Ellison Klarther, god of seas and skies Arthur C. Clarke Fol, god of Distortion Fred Pohl? Hitch, god of birds. Alfred Hitchcock Blok, god of violence Robert Bloch Tis'turzhin, god of love ??distortion Pull'nissin, god of duels ??pugillism Tukker, god of names Bob Tucker Caff, god of dragons Anne McCaffrey Yake, god of what-if ? Furman, god of fasf Ed Ferman The sign of Gafia, when all the gods stop listening. (get away from it all). Womens' names: Kate (Wilheim), Judy (-Lynn Del Rey), Anne (McCaffrey), Ursula (K. LeGuin), Karen (?), Andre (Norten), Miriam (Zimmer Bradley), Leigh (Brackett), Sonya (?), Zenna (Henderson), Joanna (Russ), (Chelsea) Quinn (Yarbro). Things: Ouells and Virn, the two suns Wells and Verne The Mouth of Teev. A whirlpool, appears at the end of summer, and sucks up everything. The fall TV season? The Teeth of Despair. A mountain range, with peaks like Critic's Tooth and Viper's Bite. Ruled by the mad demon Peers, who 'gnashes and gnarls mightily. He attacks natives and strangers alike.' I feel this is probably someone. The Cathawk. (Kittyhawk) A dirigible built by Wilville and Orbur. At the end of the story, it is put on display in Smith's Son's Clearing (the Smithsonian). Peter Trei oc.trei%cu20b.arpa "Life sucks, and then you die." ------------------------------ Date: 19 Nov 84 11:34:03 EST From: Saul Subject: Re: The Flying Sorceror I believe that Tis 'turzhin is Ted Sturgeon and Peers may be Piers Anthony. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Nov 84 10:00 CST From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Sub warfare in space To: ASP%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Is the Star Trek episode you are refering to called "Balance of Terror"? Personally I enjoyed that one a lot. It was one of two episodes that had Romulans in it (My favorite ST aliens, though Klingons are fab too). I must admit I liked "The Enterprise Incident" better, but you get to see Kirk with pointed ears and you get to see Spock get intimate. Not to mention that Romulans are in it. Brett Slocum ("I'm going to bob your ears.") ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 20-Nov SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #203 Date: 20 Nov 84 1322-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #203 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Nov 84 1322-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #203 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 20 Nov 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 203 Today's Topics: Books - Adams & Eddings & The Flying Sorceror (7 msgs) & Comments on SF (2 msgs), Films - The Terminator, Videos - The Empire Strikes Back (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 Nov 84 07:09:57 mst From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley) Subject: SO LONG AND THANKS FOR ALL THE FISH by Douglas Adams This book is billed as 'the fourth book in the HITCHHIKER'S trilogy', which tells you at once just how serious it is... I won't attempt to describe the book for someone who hasn't learned how to fly, or to mix a Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster, or to enjoy THE HITCHHIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY and other books by Douglas Adams, but I will drop the following tidbits for aficionados: Arthur Dent is back on Earth, where curiously no one seems to remember that the planet was destroyed to make way for a hyperspatial bypass, and even more surprisingly, he manages to fall in love. FISH feels weaker than the other books in the series because its sole plot device is to tie together three fairly trivial loose ends from the earlier story, but it is more satisfactory in its treatment of characters -- we get to see more of Arthur Dent than his years of existence as the ashtray of history. The book is every bit as funny as its predecessors: Adams' talent for irony is superior to every other sf writer I know except possibly Robert Sheckley. The obligatory quote: THE HITCHHIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY, in a moment of reasoned lucidity which is almost unique among its current tally of five million, nine hundred and seventy-three thousand, five hundred and nine pages, says of the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation products that 'it is very easy to be blinded to the essential uselessness of them by the sense of achievement you get from getting them to work at all. 'In other words -- and this is the rock-solid principle on which the whole of the Corporation's Galaxywide success is founded -- their fundamental design flaws are completely hidden by their superficial design flaws.' Don't forget to forget the bit about hitting the ground, Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn PS -- Monty Python's THE MEANING OF LIFE is currently playing on cable; if you're an Adams trivia freak, watch the movie's title sequence very closely and you'll see something amusing. ------------------------------ Date: Fri 16 Nov 84 12:55:31-CST From: Pete Galvin Subject: Enchanter's End Game For those of you who were in the same boat as me, that is having read the first four books in a five book series, the agony is over. Enchanter's End Game by David Eddings has finally hit the stores (at least here in Texas). I haven't read it yet (I just bought it 10 minutes ago), but I though I'd share my glee. --Pete P.s. For those of you who haven't yet started the series, there are no more excuses. In my humble opinion, this series is on a par with AMBER. ------------------------------ Date: Mon 19 Nov 84 23:10:31-EST From: Larry Seiler Subject: The Flying Sorceror Mad demon Peers ==> an author's peers, the most critical of critics? ------------------------------ Date: 19 Nov 84 21:58:48 PST (Mon) Subject: Flying Sorcerers From: "Tim Shimeall" Could the "mad demon Peers" be a reference to simply that, an author's peers? Typically critics are authors themselves... I think this fits better than Piers Anthony. Tim ------------------------------ Date: Tue 20 Nov 84 01:55:15-EST From: LINDSAY@TL-20A.ARPA Subject: re: The Flying Sorceror "Peer" most definitely is Piers Anthony. He was known among SF writers as the person most likely to sue or to present demands for justice. I recall hearing that he has mellowed: perhaps a result of financial success. In any case, clearly he was the "mad demon who gnashes and gnarls mightily". Don ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 84 23:30 MST From: "Ronald B. Harvey" Subject: Re: Cast of "Flying Sorcerers" Cc: wasser_1%viking.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA (John A. Wasser) I'm not an expert, but here are my contributions: First off, you managed to typo some names: Robert Heinlein, Ray Bradbury, Poul Anderson Now, for some possibilities: Blok --> Robert Bloch (wrote Psycho) Tis'turzhin --> Theodore Sturgeon (God of Love makes some sense if you have ever heard him expound his philosophy of life) Peers --> Piers Anthony? (I have studiously avoided his work) Fol --> Fred Pohl (Foglio was almost definitely unknown in 1971) Anne -> McCaffrey Andre -> Norton Leigh -> Brackett Judy -> Judy-Lynn del Rey (?) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 84 09:49:51 EST Subject: "With wobbly to fill in the cracks" From: Mike O'Brien I think these are the last few still in dispute ("The Flying Sorcerers"): Tis'turzhin, god of love - Ted Sturgeon Pull'nissin, god of duels - Poul Anderson Peers, gnasher of teeth - Piers Anthony Karen - Probably Karen Anderson Miriam - NOT Zimmer Bradley (that's Marion), but I can't remember who it is ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 84 10:52:25 CST From: Mike Caplinger Subject: Re: womens' names in FLYING SORCERERS "Karen" is almost certainly Karen Anderson, Poul's wife. Aren't there any Poul Anderson fans out there? - Mike ------------------------------ Date: 20 Nov 1984 11:07:11-EST From: carol at mit-cipg at mit-mc Subject: RE: Eccar the Man How about Jesus? I haven't read the book, so this may be way off base, but wasn't it Pilate who said, "Ecce homo" ('behold the man', or maybe 'look at this man') of Jesus when he brought him before the mob hoping to convince them not to demand his death? Somebody did, anyway. It's one of those quotes I heard around during my four year hitch at a Protestant girls' school. He was a man who was also 'God incarnate', etc., and the triangle is like the Trinity . ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 84 13:01:41 est From: cjh@cca-unix (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: two comments wrt Duntemann's remarks about HSapiens' incurable technophilia: this is an idea which other SF luminaries have trumpeted in wider forums, with predictable results. A well-known case is Lester del Rey, whose continued insistence that a spaceshipload of intelligent castaways would at once [re]establish a mechanistic culture so irritated Marion Zimmer Bradley that she wrote DARKOVER LANDFALL, in which virtually the opposite happens, for good reasons. John Brunner tackled the question from a different slant (and with a Larousse Encyclopedia of Mythology conveniently at hand, well before Zelazny started writing about humans setting themselves up as random pantheons) and came up with BEDLAM PLANET. Another reader says that we should ignore the flaws in the world[s] Herbert creates in DUNE because the flaws are irrelevant to the story of social decay. This shows some misunderstanding of Herbert's own interests and biases, cf for instance THE GREEN BRAIN (?) (attempting to wipe out all the insects in the Brazilian (?) jungle causes predictable problems). I also question the assumptions about the specific focus of DUNE, for which I would argue that it was based as much on a created ecology (with the plot coming afterwards) as LORD OF THE RINGS was based on Tolkien's created languages and the societies they reflected. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 1984 22:27 EST From: Jim Aspnes To: jcr@MITRE-BEDFORD.ARPA Subject: Hard SF and other contradictions in terms There's a reason that there's not much hard SF hitting the markets these days, and that is that truly hard SF usually manages to be unspeakably boring. I would argue fairly strongly that most good SF (going back to Wells, even), has required a fair degree of playing with reality. "Hard" SF has, for the most part, been a fairly recent innovation, and one that is easily corrupted (as by Niven, or by most current practicioners of Hard SF). Write a story an engineer can read ... ... and only an engineer will read it. Oh well. Jim ------------------------------ Date: Sun 18 Nov 84 20:32:56-PST From: Steve Dennett Subject: The Terminator I saw "The Terminator" last night, and found it surprisingly good. Of course, with Arnold ("Conan") Schwarnegger in the title role, my expectations weren't terribly high. ********************** SLIGHT SPOILER ************************** The plot revolves around several well-worn SF ideas: - a future where machines have attained consciousness and have decided that humans are their enemies and must be exterminated; - time travel discovered in the future and used to send a killer back in time to assassinate your strongest foe's parent(s); - a robot (here called a "cyborg") disguised as a human by having a human "skin" grown over it. The Terminator is sent from the future to find and kill the woman named "Sarah Conner", whose son will lead the human forces against the machines of 2029. A human soldier is sent after him by the future humans, to protect Sarah and destroy the Terminator. Two things lift "Terminator" above the run-of-the-mill action film. First, there are lots of humorous, yet appropriate, little touches, often based on the fact that the Terminator is a robot, and thus often quite literal in doing what he says. These keep the film from being totally grim, despite the continuous killing. [Also, the killings are generally handled in the sanitized TV style (i.e. without blood and internal organs splattered all over); the worst gore all relates to damage the Terminator's fleshy shell sustains.] Second is the touching romance that develops between the woman stalked by the Terminator, and the man sent from the future to protect her. They both come across as real people, making the best of a terrible situation. Even the growth in Sarah's character, from naive girl to self-sufficient woman is handled believably. Flash-forwards to the future are well-timed, although the special effects aren't particularly spectacular. Probably the least satisfying aspect of this film in SF terms is that it completely ignores the paradoxes inherent in "changing the past", e.g. Can the past be changed? What will happen to the Terminator's future if he does succeed? Its nature as an action film leaves no room for such interesting speculations. "Terminator" is not a "great" film, but it is completely satisfying as an action-adventure-chase file. Additionally, as my companion observed, "Terminator" could be the start of a new film genre: "SF-Comedy-Violence". From the print reviews I've seen of another just-released SF film, "Night of the Comet", he may be right. Steve Dennett dennett@sri-nic ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 16 Nov 1984 09:04:42-PST From: lionel%orphan.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Steve Lionel) Subject: The Empire Strikes Back videotape defect I picked up my copies of the Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back videotapes last night. While the overall quality of the picture and the sound is superb, especially the digitally-mastered Beta Hi-Fi soundtrack of TESB, there is a serious manufacturing defect in the latter tape. At 1h32m56s into the tape, there is a complete loss of audio on both the Hi-Fi and normal soundtracks; this dropout lasts about a second. My dealer told me that this defect was on all of the nine copies of the tape he tried; the defect is not on the VHS format copies, though. (The scene is where Lando is explaining to Leia and the just-tortured Han that Vader wants someone named Skywalker.) The dealer has a call into CBS/Fox to get more information about this. I have written a nastygram (via MCI mail) to CBS/Fox demanding a replacement. I'll let folks know what I learn about this. If you are intending to buy the Beta version of the tape, you may want to take this into account, though you will almost certainly be able to get the tape replaced if defective. Of secondary irritation was the fact that both tapes were covered with paper dust from the cardboard sleeve - I hate to think what this might be doing to my VCR's heads. Steve Lionel ------------------------------ Date: Sun 18 Nov 84 13:15:50-PST From: Mark Crispin Subject: "The Empire Strikes Back" on video I just got my copy, on Laser Disc. Overall, my feelings of the video version are *very* mixed. I have good feelings because this version is probably the only one we'll ever be able to get for home use (legally, anyway). I have bad feelings because the overall result is technically quite inferior from what it could have been, especially compared to the wonderful versions of "Star Wars" and "Raiders of the Lost Ark" which came out earlier. Rumor states that George Lucas didn't want to release TESB for video because he didn't think it could do justice to his work (this compares to Steven Spielberg's opinion of the video version of "Raiders"; he thought the color balancing was *better* than the movie). One wonders if Lucas ordered this sloppy job to prove his point. The audio tracks were poorly equalized and at some times sound downright tinny. Those of you playing it on ordinary Beta or VHS VCR's probably wouldn't notice the difference, but anybody with Laser or Beta/VHS Hi-Fi will hear it instantly. The video work was rushed, and it shows. There are a few breaks, as if they used a theatre print instead of a virgin one. Quite annoying is that the video version is just the center area of the movie version; the sides are completely cut off. No attempt was made to pan from side to side to show the missing action (which was done in both "Star Wars" and "Raiders" to great advantage). This "cut-off" probably improved the Yoda scenes, but in the space battle scenes you lost much of the effect. In Laser, the movie breaks abruptly to make you change sides just as Luke is about to enter the cave; they could have picked any of several clean scene changes to place the break. Laser is capable of *much* higher video quality than Beta or VHS, but it didn't show up in this print. I saw a VHS version (a worst case video; Beta is cleaner) in a video store; while the Laser version was better it wasn't *that much* better. It looks like they mastered for Beta/VHS first and then did Laser as an afterthought. By comparision, I believe "Star Wars" was separately mastered for Laser. All in all, I think the work deserved a better job. At $30 for the Laser version, I'm not complaining too much; I've seen (and paid) for worse. At the obscene price of $80 for a Beta or VHS version, I would be upset, especially since the Laser customers were getting the same print (that would last forever) for $50 less. -- Mark -- ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 24-Nov SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #204 Date: 24 Nov 84 1605-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #204 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 24 Nov 84 1605-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #204 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 24 Nov 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 204 Today's Topics: Books - The Flying Sorcerors (6 msgs) & Comments on SF (3 msgs), Films - The Terminator (2 msgs), Videos - The Empire Strikes Back (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Aussiecon Two - 1985 Worldcon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 Nov 84 08:28:04 EST From: "Cyril N. Alberga" From: Subject: Flying Sorcerors Karen is probably Karen Anderson. One of Piers Anthony's early works was a novel (which I have not read, nor own) about a inter-stellar orthodontist, with (on the paper back I have seen) an illustration showing a set of teeth large enough that heavy contruction equipment is being used to repair them. Guess I'll have to find a copy of the book and join the name hunt. Cyril N. Alberga ------------------------------ Date: Tue 20 Nov 84 16:31:19-EST From: Elizabeth J. Willey Subject: "The Flying Sorcerers" The reference to Shoogar may be related to the battle Asimov had with SUGAR: a diet in which he lost a bit of weight. Poup may be the Pope? a proponent of fertility. And isn't there a writer of Star Trek books (maybe other stuff I haven't seen too) called Sonya something? ------------------------------ Date: 20 Nov 84 12:10:02 PST (Tuesday) From: Michael Tallan Subject: Re: Cast of "Flying Sorcerers" A few more comments and additions to the Flying Sorcerers list of names, as summarized by Wasser and Trei: The Gods: Blok, God of Violence - Robert Bloch (author of "Psycho") Tis'turzhin, God of Love - Ted Sturgeon (read name as T. Sturgeon; stories often based on love) Pull'nissin, god of duels - Poul Anderson (founder of SCA) Female natives: Judy (could be -Lynn Del Rey, but more likely Merril) Karen (Anderson, Poul's wife and also an author) Sonya (can't quite remember the last name, but I think she's published in F+SF. Somebody could check issues from the '60s.) The Teeth of Despair. A mountain range, with peaks like Critic's Tooth and Viper's Bite. Ruled by the mad demon Peers, who 'gnashes and gnarls mightily. He attacks natives and strangers alike.' - could Peers just refer to a science fiction writer's fellow authors, his peers, many of whom are also book reviewers (e.g., Budrys, Sturgeon, Robinson, etc.) and therefore on occasion harsh critics of their works? Major characters: Lant-la-lee-lay-ah-no (Lant) - the first two syllables of Lant's name, Lant-la, are an anagram for Tallan, so clearly Gerrold and Niven are referring to ME! (If I repeat this several million times I might even believe it myself.) -- Michael Tallan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 1984 12:10:43 EST From: "Wherever I go, there I am" Subject: More on The Flying Sorcerors Here are a few more details on "The Flying Sorcerors": 1) Klarther is, indeed, Arthur C. Clarke. The "skies and seas" refers to the fact that, though he's known for his space-set sf, several of his earlier novels (including The Deep Range, about near-future farming under the sea) are ocean- based. Also, he's an avid skin diver, and has written about that topic in several forums; it's this interest which caused him to move to Sri Lanka. 2) Tis'turzhin, God of Love, is Ted Sturgeon, who's written numerous stories and novels on that topic in sf settings. 3) Peers, the demon who rules the Teeth of Despair, is Piers Anthony. The reference is to his short stories collected in the book Prostho Plus (1971; stories were originally in IF in the late sixties); they're tales of an interstellar dentist. 4) Tukker, God of Names, is Wilson Tucker, who, as a fan writer, invented the tradition of using the names of fans and writers for characters in novels; this process is known in fannish circles, as "Tuckerization", and the names themselves as "Tuckerisms". 5) Yake, God of What-if, may be John W. Campbell (JWC -> Yake?), once editor of Astounding (now known as Analog), who used to meet with writers and give them story ideas in the form of "What if..." questions. 6) Poup, God of Fertility, may be a reference to Fredric Pohl. Or, it may be a homonym for 'Pope'. 7) The womens' names are, as others have noted, those of female sf writers and editors. However, Judy is Judith Merrill, not Judy-Lynn del Rey, who wasn't very well known when TFS was written. Sonya is Sonya Dorman, an American writer who's only published in the magazines, to my recollection. I suspect that Karen is Karen Anderson, Poul's wife; she doesn't write sf, but is an active fan and an old friend of Niven. ------------------------------ Date: Wed 21 Nov 84 10:03:02-EST From: P. David Lebling Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #202 More on "Flying Sorcerers"; "Yake, the god of What-if" is probably Ejlar Jacobsson, who was editor of Worlds of IF when the book was serialized in it. Dave ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Nov 84 10:50 EST From: Jonathan Ostrowsky Subject: Name in "The Flying Sorcerors" Date: Tue, 20 Nov 84 09:49:51 EST From: Mike O'Brien I think these are the last few still in dispute ("The Flying Sorcerers"): Tis'turzhin, god of love - Ted Sturgeon Pull'nissin, god of duels - Poul Anderson Peers, gnasher of teeth - Piers Anthony Karen - Probably Karen Anderson Miriam - NOT Zimmer Bradley (that's Marion), but I can't remember who it is "Miriam" must be Miriam Allen DeFord, I think. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 84 15:54:06 EST From: Ronald L. Singleton Subject: Facts, Twisting of, in Science Fiction Now, Jeff (Rogers, in SFL Digest of 20 Nov), keeping facts straight indeed! Next thing, someone will declare that all FTL drives should be banished because they are "impossible." Unless they keep up, that is, some scientist in South Africa is saying he will soon publish a paper contending that FTL travel is possible. He has said that "I will aver that an object travelling faster than light will not travel backward in time and have negative mass." As for me, whether he is right or not I will continue reading those "fantastic" suppositions (and possibly completely impossible - wait, did I just write something that it is impossible to write?? -), because I read them for *enjoyment,* as do many others. For facts I can get Scientific American, Newsweek, or any one of hundreds of other sources. Let's keep on keeping on! Ron S. ------------------------------ From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Date: 21 Nov 84 8:41:09 EST Subject: Slow times at the idea factory I imagine we'd all scream at each other a little less if we took time to recall what each of us does this for--some read SF to get their soap opera fix, others to find believable characters to swap shoes with for awhile. It's this sort of thing which led me to despair of formal criticism years ago--hey, bottom line we like it because we know what we like and this is it. Poking holes in sandworms falls flat for some people because they're interested in the costume drama. My First Commandment to SF authors has always been: Tell me something I don't already know. I have forgiven an awful lot of very bad writing because behind it the man has come up with something striking and original. Hal Clement's writing runs from middling to awful when one drops it on the scale of important English prose, but he invented Mesklin, and I'm a sucker for oddball planets. Much the same goes for Larry Niven--back when he was really producing, he was dropping original notions right and left, which distracted from the fact that he doesn't do characters well. It's been slim pickins for Clement and Niven lately, at least in part because the sort of thing they do has become a lot more popular in the last twenty years, and all the obvious and easy notions have been done, sometimes to death. It takes a good imagination and a lot of math to do really original idea fiction these days. Bob Forward is a TERRIBLE prose stylist, but the guy can still tell me something I haven't heard againandagainandagain, and for that reason I buy his books in hardcover. I expect a lot from David Brin, and so far he's done fairly well. Greg Bear has his moments. Benford is a rare treat. It's HARD doing that stuff. It's all what you need from the printed page. I picked up Darkover Landfall when it first came out and tossed it against the wall. Yet another King Arthur on Mars story. Others devour the stuff... I want ideas. You are welcome to King Arthur. --Jeff Duntemann ------------------------------ Date: 21 Nov 84 11:04:44 PST (Wed) Subject: Scrith indeed... From: Greg Finnegan > "Scrith," indeed! The existence of such a substance has > absolutely no foundation in current theory; it's utter fantasy! You know - that's what they said about the theory that the sun was at the center of the solar system... That is the beauty of science fiction ( as in 'fiction') - it allows the author to explore areas and ideas that are not necessarily feasible (or are they? --- how do we know?). -- Greg finnegan@uci-icsc The earth is really an inside out sphere, too. ------------------------------ To: Steve Dennett Subject: Re: The Terminator Date: 21 Nov 84 20:00:46 EST (Wed) From: Marshall Rose Probably the least satisfying aspect of this film in SF terms is that it completely ignores the paradoxes inherent in "changing the past", e.g. Can the past be changed? What will happen to the Terminator's future if he does succeed? Its nature as an action film leaves no room for such interesting speculations. Uh, I thought the ending tied it all rather nicely and resolved the paradox question. I really can't say more without giving it all away, but note that the soldier from the future said he was from one of "many possible futures". Also, for an ironic laugh, listen to the message on the protagonist's phone recorder. Anyway, "Terminator" is a pretty good film (I'd call it "great"), it had me in stitches for most of the evening. I saw "Night of the Comet" a couple of nights ago. Not bad, liked it quite a bit. Micro plot summary: Every 60 million years or so this comet goes through our solar system. Although it doesn't hit Earth, we go right through its tail one evening. Incidentally, the last time this happened the dinosaurs became extinct. A few people are lucky/smart enough to shield themselves that fateful night. They survive. The others, well, most are lucky, some aren't. /mtr ------------------------------ Date: Thu 22 Nov 84 00:22:43-EST From: Peter G. Trei Subject: The Terminator (slight spoiler) ** slight spoiler ** A friend of mine recently went to see 'The Terminator' starring Arnold Schwarzeneggar (sp?), and came back with an interesting tidbit of information; It seems that the cyborg who is played by AS was made by Apple, or at least has the brains of a microcomputer. At times we see the world from the androids point of veiw. It is oddly tinted, and there are 'meaningless' printouts scrolling across the field of vision. The printouts are not quite meaningless: they are source code for the 6502 microprocessor which is used by the Apple ][ line among others; in fact the particular listings involved appeared in Nybble, an Apple magazine. Maybe Schwarzeneggar's character is also trying to kill the inventor of the IBM-PC... Peter Trei oc.trei@cu20b.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 20 Nov 1984 21:02:08-PST From: lionel%orphan.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Steve Lionel) Subject: The Empire Strikes Back, so return it Earlier I reported that the Beta copy of The Empire Strikes Back I purchased was defective. Apparently this defect was not universal. My dealer received replacement copies without the defect. So, if you buy one, it will probably be ok, but make sure you can exchange it if you have to. Mark Crispin said that the sound on his laserdisc copy of TESB was "tinny"; I didn't notice this as a problem, though the treble was a bit brighter, no doubt due to the digital mastering. The picture looked very good to me, though; I do have a high-quality monitor. The Star Wars tape, on the other hand, was mediocre in both picture and sound. Steve Lionel ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 21 Nov 1984 09:21-EST From: wesm@Mitre-Bedford Cc: mrc@su-score Subject: EMIPRE STRIKES BACK ON LASER DISK I too have bought TESB on laser disc and was not pleased at all. First, I am positive that the soundtrack for the first five minutes or so (at least) has been totally altered (not the same music that is in the screen version). Second, and most important, I found that in order for CBS/FOX to fit the entire movie on to one disc, they recorded the movie at a slightly faster speed than normal. This is very noticeable when C3PO and Yoda speak, their voices are abnormally high. I first thought it was me, but when I saw the running time of 120 minutes it confirmed my suspicions (maximum play time for a laser disc is 60 minutes per side). Mark, could you pass on to me the adress (and phone) of CBS/FOX - I'd also like a word with them! I would have gladly paid the extra money for the thing done right! This isn't the first SF flick that has been butchered. My copy of ALIEN has about 5 minutes of footage missing. I also hear that there is a version of STAR WARS out with an extra five minutes added. I don't really see the justification for all this. It makes for dissatisfied customers. ------------------------------ From: mcb%lll-tis.arpa@lll-tis (Michael C. Berch) Date: Wed Nov 14 22:08:26 1984 Subject: Aussiecon Two - 1985 Worldcon Cc: cracraft@sri-tsca.ARPA The following is taken from the Aussiecon 2 ad on page 47 of the LA con II program book: Aussiecon Two 43rd world science fiction convention Southern Cross Hotel, Melbourne, Australia 22-26 August 1984 Gene Wolfe, Pro Guest of Honor (excuse me... "Honour") Ted White, Fan Guest of Honour Memberships and info by mail - US Funds cheque payable to Aussiecon Two, contact: Fred Patten 11863 West Jefferson Blvd Culver City, CA 90230 Other US info addresses: Joyce Scrivner Jan Howard Finder 2732 - 14th Avenue South Lower P.O. Box 428 Minneapolis, MN 55404 Latham, NY 12110 The reason for this unscheduled emulation of SF-CONS-LIST is that it's NOT TOO EARLY to think about charter flights and suchlike. I'm not sure enough of my own plans to offer to organize a list on this topic, but I'll bet there might be enough of us come next spring to get a good rate out of San Francisco (hint, hint) or L.A. ... Stay tuned. Michael C. Berch mcb@lll-tis.ARPA ...ucbvax!lbl-csam!lll-tis!mcb ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 26-Nov SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #205 Date: 26 Nov 84 1201-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #205 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 26 Nov 84 1201-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #205 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 26 Nov 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 205 Today's Topics: Books - Adams ( 3 msgs) & Asimov (7 msgs) & Padgett & Palmer (2 msgs) & Van Vogt (2 msgs) & The Flying Sorceror (2 msgs), Films - Buckaroo Banzai ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: louie@umd5.UUCP Subject: Douglas Adams - HHGTTG, So Long And Thanks For All The Fish Date: Wed, 7 Nov 84 20:22:25 MST Well, Douglas Adams was here at the University of Maryland tonight, along with copies of his new book "So Long, And Thanks For All The Fish", the fourth book in the The Hitchhiker's Trilogy. I have the hardcover edition in my hot little hands at this moment, and can't wait to start. During the two hours that he was here, he mentioned that production of the MOVIE version of The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy is due to begin in the first half of 1985. He also said to watch for The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy VIDEO GAME to appear in the next few weeks. (Just in time for Christmas). It was a weird, wonderful couple of hours with Douglas Adams.. he did a number of readings from The Restaurant At The End Of The Universe and Life, The Universe And Everything. What a guy! Louis A. Mamakos Computer Science Center - Systems Programming Univ. of Maryland. ------------------------------ From: eric@milo.UUCP (Eric Bergan) Subject: Re: Douglas Adams - HHGTTG, So Long And Thanks For All The Subject: Fish Date: Thu, 8 Nov 84 07:48:17 MST Douglas Adams has just releases HHGTTG in yet another form - that of a computer adventure. When I first saw the Infocom ads, I figured they had just bought the rights to it. But lo and behold, when I got it it shows Douglas Adams as author (and the manual was definitely written by him). I have not started it yet, but a blurb in the manual states that having read the books will help only in the early going, the rest is all new. Looks like another wacky first from Adams. eric ...!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!milo!eric ------------------------------ From: gmp@rayssd.UUCP Subject: New R.Adams: one line review Date: Mon, 19 Nov 84 06:25:53 MST "So Long, and Thanks for all the Fish": wait for the paperback. ------------------------------ From: gmp@rayssd.UUCP Subject: Robots of Dawn Date: Wed, 7 Nov 84 11:13:50 MST For those of you that don't know, "The Robots of Dawn" by Asimov is now out in paperback. For those of you that haven't read it, I recommend it. However, I recommend that you don't read the hype on or near the covers--at least until you're half-way through the book. Gregory M. Paris {allegra,ccice5,decvax!brunix,linus}!rayssd!gmp ------------------------------ From: recovert@ihuxf.UUCP (recovert) Subject: Re: Robots of Dawn Date: Thu, 8 Nov 84 07:53:46 MST I just started reading the Robots Of Dawn by Asimov. The book appears to be ONE LONG story about a human detective investigating the *death* of an intelligent robot. After ~100 pages, I keep expecting the human detective to discover who killed the robot. My biggest complaint is that the story topic seems more suited to a short story then a 300 page novel. Asimov spends to much time trying to develope an alternate world (Aurora) in order to solve the crime. Richard E. Covert (312) 979-4428 ihuxf!recovert (BTL,Indian Hill) ------------------------------ From: js2j@mhuxt.UUCP (sonntag) Subject: Re: Re: Robots of Dawn **SPOILER!** Date: Thu, 8 Nov 84 10:59:28 MST > I just started reading the Robots Of Dawn by Asimov. The book > appears to be ONE LONG story about a human detective investigating > the *death* of an intelligent robot. After ~100 pages, I keep > expecting the human detective to discover who killed the robot. My > biggest compliant A couple other things bothered me too: 1.) The robot that was killed was a 'humaniform' robot, and much of the plot hinges on the fact that no one except one particular roboticist can make a humaniform robot. But later on, we find out that the only real difference between a regular robot and a humaniform robot is that the h. robots, as the name suggests, have a very human appearance. Way back in 2300, or so, long before this story takes place in Asomov's robot universe, there was a robot which became humaniform by upgrading himself. 2.) One possibility, which the detective didn't even investigate, was suicide. He carefully eliminated many more unlikely alternatives than this one, even though the robot had a great motive for suicide. (his continued existence could have been construed as causing 'harm' to his HUMAN lover. By the first law of robotics, I don't see why it would be unreasonable to suspect that he had offed himself.) All in all, not *too* bad, though it certainly would have been better if it had been about half as long. Jeff Sonntag ihnp4!mhuxl!mhuxt!js2j p.s. For extra credit, what was the name of the robot who became a man, the name of the book, and the year in which it occured? ------------------------------ From: ted@usceast.UUCP (Ted Nolan) Subject: Re: Robots of Dawn -> -> tieins Date: Fri, 9 Nov 84 14:03:13 MST js2j@mhuxt.UUCP (sonntag) writes: > >Jeff Sonntag >ihnp4!mhuxl!mhuxt!js2j > >p.s. For extra credit, what was the name of the robot who became a >man, the name of the book, and the year in which it occured? I beleive it was in 2076 and the robots name was something Martin (he is mentioned in the Robots of Dawn) . I think the book was The Bicentenial Man. I've noticed that in his most recent 2 SF books Asimov is starting to tie a large body of his work into one universe. In _Foundations Edge_ he brings in the robots (and why there are no more) and "eternity" from _The End of Eternity_ and the planet from "Misbegotten Missionary" . In _The Robots of Dawn_, he shows the robots making the decision that they are bad for humanity and tells why the second wave of outmigration from Earth leaves the Spacer worlds alone and forgotten by the time of the First Empire. What I want to know is how he will explain the Earth's becoming radioactive. It is not so in Bayley's time, but it is in _The Stars Like Dust_ (which takes place before the First Empire, but after the settlement of Trantor) Any ideas? And for that matter, why the compulsion to tie everything together. (And where does _Pebble in the Sky_ go ,if anywhere? (Wasn't the snaypsifer mentioned in _Foundations Edge_ ? ) ) Ted Nolan ...decvax!mcnc!ncsu!ncrcae!usceast!ted 6536 Brookside Circle ...akgua!usceast!ted Columbia, SC 29206 ("Deep space is my dwelling place, the stars my destination") ------------------------------ From: red@ukma.UUCP (Red Varth) Subject: Re: Answer to extra-credit question Date: Sun, 11 Nov 84 19:47:04 MST The name of the robot was Andrew, and it was in "The Bicentennial Man" It's an excellent story, by the way. Asimov at his second best. Asimov at his first best is his limericks Red ------------------------------ From: jagardner@watmath.UUCP (jagardner) Subject: Re: Robots of Dawn -> -> tieins Date: Thu, 15 Nov 84 09:58:58 MST One of the great strengths and weaknesses of SF is how much it is a literature of ideas. Of course there are many authors who also handle character, plot, and language well, but there are a large number of SF writers who simply come up with interesting ideas and write cardboard characters and plots as an excuse to present the ideas. Given this, tie-ins make a good deal more sense in SF than in many other genres. When a book is written in some other genre, it follows a character or a story and ends when the character has passed some significant turning point or when the story comes to an end. In SF, on the other hand, things aren't so cleanly tied off. Characters may die or pass their turning point, and stories may end, but the ideas go on. They also go on percolating in the author's mind and also in the minds of fans who may suggest new ideas to the author. At any rate, the ideas spawn new ideas and eventually one gets spin-off novels and stories. It doesn't hurt that the SF-buying public encourages this trend by clamouring for sequels and by gobbling up books that are related to previous scenarios. Furthermore, there is the pure intellectual challenge of tying a set of ideas together. This makes for a sort of meta-idea that appeals greatly to the average SF writer. Remember that SF writers often have strong science backgrounds and that one of the foremost goals of scientists is to tie a large number of observations together into a single simple system. The same impulse leads writers to strive to tie everything together into one glorious consistency. Most readers (me included) also enjoy this tying together, even though it's annoying if you haven't read all the preceding books. To paraphrase Hannibal on the A-Team, "I love it when a universe comes together." Jim Gardner, UW Software Development Group ------------------------------ From: mcdonald@smu.UUCP Subject: Re: Re: Re: Robots of Dawn * Date: Thu, 15 Nov 84 09:55:00 MST But are you sure that the U.S. Robots stories (I think TBM was one of these) are in the same future history as Elijah Bailey? They don't seem at all consistent, largely for the reason you mentioned -- robots are _not_ commonplace in inhabited areas, while they became commonplace in the USRobots world in the early 21st century. The Three Laws are held in common, but in Bailey's world they are credited to an ancient philosopher whose name is a mangling of Asimov, with the implication that they were formulated long before they had any practical application. I am not sure, but I believe they were actually arrived at by the roboticists preceding USRobots. If anyone knows of any evidence in the Bailey books that they do coexist with USR, please post references. The mention of ancient Asimov is in _The_Caves_of_Steel_, during the interview with the Earth roboticist. (TBM stretched over 200 years, of course, starting in 2076.) Mc ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Nov 84 06:32:27 pst From: utcsrgv!mcgill-vision!mcgill-vision!mouse@uw-beaver.arpa (der From: Mouse) Subject: Lewis Padgett story hunt I am looking for a Lewis Padgett story "Mimsy Were the Borogoves". Does anyone out there know where I could find this -- has it been printed in a collection recently or something? Please reply directly -- don't clog the digest.... der Mouse {decvax,ihnp4,etc.}!uw-beaver!utcsrgv!mcgill-vision!mouse ------------------------------ From: ix241@sdcc6.UUCP (ix241) Subject: _Emergence_ Date: Fri, 2 Nov 84 09:14:48 MST _Emergence_ by David R. Palmer I finally got a chance to find out what happened to Candida. She was introduced in a novella in Analog. There was a followup story almost a year later. David Palmer's novel has those two connected stories as the first two chapters of the novel. That is about 1/6 of the novel. It is very much worth buying. I bought it yesterday afternoon and finished it in one sitting. I will reread probably this weekend. It is an after-the-holocast-with-the-New-Man novel but very well done. Candida (Candy,of course) is a new person and survives. She is eleven. That's all the spoiler I will give. Palmer uses a type of shorthand prose that is quite short on articles, conjunctions and prepositions. It is understandable. Candida's narrative is funny and serious. READ IT! John Testa UCSD Chemistry sdcsvax!sdcc6!ix241 ------------------------------ From: ishizaki@saturn.UUCP (Audrey Ishizaki) Subject: Re: _Emergence_ Date: Mon, 5 Nov 84 00:41:40 MST I, too, read _Emergence_ by David Palmer in both Analog and in the recently released novel form. I liked it, on the whole, but thought that the protagonist, Candy Smith-Foster, like Jean Auel's (_Clan of the Cave Bear_, _The Valley of Horses_) character Ayla, was a bit Too Remarkable. It's worth reading, but I felt the promise of the first chapter (which was presented as a novella in Analog) was not lived up to. Audrey Ishizaki HPlabs Palo Alto, Ca ...ucbvax!hplabs!ishizaki ------------------------------ From: seetha@wateng.UUCP (Selvaraj SEETHARAMAN) Subject: Sequel to Slan by A.E. van Vogt Date: Sat, 3 Nov 84 13:53:29 MST Has anyone ever heard of a sequel to the book by A.E. van Vogt named above. In case you don't get the correct header the title is SLAN. Thanks for any help you can provide. ------------------------------ From: jdb@qubix.UUCP (Jeff Bulf) Subject: Re: Sequel to Slan by A.E. van Vogt Date: Wed, 7 Nov 84 17:15:52 MST > Has anyone ever heard of a sequel to the book by A.E. van Vogt > named above. In case you don't get the correct header the title > is SLAN. Thanks for any help you can provide. A sequel to SLAN?!!! Please post this one, or at least mail me a copy. vanVogt at his most human was a real pleasure. Dr Memory ...{amd,ucbvax,ihnp4}!qubix!jdb ------------------------------ From: west@utcsrgv.UUCP (Thomas L. West) Subject: The Flying Sorcerors - Shoogar. Date: Sun, 4 Nov 84 13:09:29 MST The pun on Shoogar is fairly obvious if you read the passages involving him out loud, especially to the uninitiated. The idea of all of these people calling an important sorceror Shoogar which when read becomes Sugar can be reasonably amusing. Tom West { allegra cornell decvax ihnp4 linus utzoo }!utcsrgv!west ------------------------------ From: msj@gitpyr.UUCP (Mike St. Johns) Subject: Re: Re: Flying Sorcerers Date: Fri, 9 Nov 84 20:33:33 MST jeff1@garfield.UUCP (Jeff Sparkes) writes: >> rcmcc@whuxi.UUCP (MC_CONNELL) writes: >> >If I remember correctly, the natives kept >> >referring to the lead character as "Purple." >> > >> > "Purple" <- As-i-mauve <- Asimov >> > >> >is my interpretation. >> >> Specifically his (the Human character's) translating machine >> renders his name in the lanuguage of the natives of the planet >> as: >> "as a purple shade of gray"->"as a mauve"->Asimov, nifty pun. > And of course, Asimov loves a good ( or bad ) pun!!! > Sorry to correct you, but the quote was: "As a color, shade of purple-gray" Mike. Mike St. Johns Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 ...!{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!msj ------------------------------ From: rh@mit-eddie.UUCP (Randy Haskins) Subject: Re: Re: Buckaroo Banzai, Babysitter Date: Sun, 4 Nov 84 20:08:43 MST > It's good to see your old babysitter on the silver screen... >... After "Firstborn", boasting that he was your babysitter may be >something of a claim to bravery... :-) Yeah, he's the meanest looking person with blue eyes I've ever seen. When I saw this flick last night, I kept thinking about how he would babysit. He got to kick the crap out of Albert Finney in "Shoot the Moon," too, (not that Finney didn't deserve it at that (or any other) point). It's going to interesting to watch the way Hollywood deals with Weller over the next year or too. He seems to bring a lot of quiet intensity to his parts. Also, after seeing "Red Dawn" and "Firstborn," I think I've come up for what PG13 means: "Well, we didn't really do anything to get an 'R,' rating, but you really don't want your young kids to see this flick." ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 26-Nov SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #206 Date: 26 Nov 84 1311-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #206 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 26 Nov 84 1311-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #206 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 26 Nov 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 206 Today's Topics: Books - Brin (6 msgs) & Clarke & Saberhagen (2 msgs) & Spinrad (5 msgs), Television - Tales From the Dark Side (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dcmartin@ucbvax.ARPA (David C. Martin) Subject: Re: Discovered David Brin Date: Sun, 4 Nov 84 01:33:33 MST I have read Startide Rising and Sundiver with great appreciation as well, but was turned off by the Practice Effect not being of the same subject. (I will grant you that I did not read the entire novel, so no flames please!) I have picked up a novel on recommendation that I found of the same style. (Not uplift, but writing) It is called The Demolished Man by Alfred Bester and was the winner of the first Hugo. I would highly recommend it to anyone who liked David Brin's style. ------------------------------ From: kevin@voder.UUCP (worthless scum) Subject: Re: Discovered David Brin Date: Mon, 5 Nov 84 20:50:35 MST > Has anybody read STARTIDE RISING, SUNDIVER, and THE PRACTICE > EFFECT by David Brin? I found the books (especially STARTIDE > RISING) to be captivating and deep (sorry about the pun, Brin > fans.) Has / is he writing anything new? I anxiously await the > reopening of the door into the Brin universe. Has any one else > thought of "uplifting" dolphins? > Eric Novikoff tesla!novikoff@cornell.arpa STARTIDE RISING won a Hugo for best science-fiction novel for 1983. Before we start uplifting dolphins we'd better start uplifting some humans ( :-) ?). Kevin Thompson {ucbvax,ihnp4!nsc}!voder!kevin "It's sort of a threat, you see. I've never been very good at them myself but I'm told they can be very effective." ------------------------------ From: asente@Cascade.ARPA Subject: Re: Discovered David Brin Date: Mon, 5 Nov 84 18:04:50 MST > I have read Startide Rising and Sundiver with great appreciation > as well, but was turned off by the Practice Effect not being of > the same subject. It may not have been on the same subject, but it is in the same "future history" as the first two. There are several references in The Practice Effect that indicate that the world in which the beginning takes place is the same earth where Sundiver takes place. -paul asente Practice makes perfect. ------------------------------ From: chenr@tilt.FUN (Ray Chen) Subject: Re: Discovered David Brin Date: Thu, 8 Nov 84 23:01:52 MST > > I have read Startide Rising and Sundiver with great appreciation > > as well, but was turned off by the Practice Effect not being of > > the same subject. > > It may not have been on the same subject, but it is in the same > "future history" as the first two. There are several references > in The Practice Effect that indicate that the world in which the > beginning takes place is the same earth where Sundiver takes > place. > -paul asente I've read all three. Where? Ray Chen princeton!tilt!chenr ------------------------------ From: asente@Cascade.ARPA Subject: Re: Discovered David Brin Date: Fri, 16 Nov 84 15:35:42 MST >>> I have read Startide Rising and Sundiver with great appreciation >>> as well, but was turned off by the Practice Effect not being of >>> the same subject. >> >> It may not have been on the same subject, but it is in the same >> "future history" as the first two. There are several references >> in The Practice Effect that indicate that the world in which the >> beginning takes place is the same earth where Sundiver takes >> place. >> -paul asente > > I've read all three. Where? > > Ray Chen > princeton!tilt!chenr The Practice Effect, page 17: "I've made a real neat picture of the launch tower in Ecuador! You know, the Vanilla Needle?" -paul asente ------------------------------ From: chenr@tilt.FUN (Ray Chen) Subject: Re: Discovered David Brin Date: Sun, 18 Nov 84 14:33:10 MST > >> It may not have been on the same subject, but it is in the same > >> "future history" as the first two. There are several > >> references in The Practice Effect that indicate that the world > >> in which the beginning takes place is the same earth where > >> Sundiver takes place. > >> -paul asente > The Practice Effect, page 17: > "I've made a real neat picture of the launch tower in Ecuador! You > know, the Vanilla Needle?" So they both have a launch tower in Ecuador. Big deal. Ecuador is one of the obvious places to put one of those things. You're missing the fact that there are things in the Practice Effect which make its universe incompatible with that of Sundiver and Startide Rising. 1) The ziev effect, which is the whole reason behind the events in the Practice Effect. While the Galactic races in Sundiver/Startide Rising possess probability-altering stardrives, nobody has anything like the zievatron. The ziev effect supposedly became one of the two major facets of human civilization. 2) The large number of human-colonized planets and the conspicuous absence of any mention of the Galactics, plus the fact that the human race uses genetically engineered, intelligent animals in the place of machines. This in itself is totally incompatible with the spirit behind Uplift. Ray Chen princeton!tilt!chenr ------------------------------ Date: Fri 23 Nov 84 12:24:08-PST From: Laurence R Brothers Subject: Clarke's Law Every knows that Clarke's Law goes: A sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from magic. I wonder, though, if anyone has ever noted the logical converse, which goes: A sufficiently degraded magic is indistinguishable from science. I wouldn't want to claim to have originated someone else's apothegm.... -Laurence ------------------------------ From: dave@uwvax.UUCP (Dave Cohrs) Subject: Swords Books -- availability update Date: Sun, 4 Nov 84 23:53:15 MST A new edition of Saberhagens Books of Swords is available. I am a member of the 'Science Fiction Book Club' and was pleased (ecstatic?) to see that this month's selection was a 3-in-1 set of the books. Needless to say, I'm getting this selection. So, all of you who want to read the 2nd book, quick.... join up! Dave Cohrs ...!{allegra,heurikon,ihnp4,seismo,uwm-evax}!uwvax!dave dave@wisc-rsch.arpa ------------------------------ From: ttb@ihuxn.UUCP (Thomas T. Butler) Subject: Question about "Book of Swords" Date: Wed, 7 Nov 84 07:05:23 MST The latest offering of the SFBC is "The Complete Book of Swords" (3 books in one) by Fred Saberhagen. In spite of my 35 years as an avid Science Fiction fan, I am not familiar with this author or any of the "Sword" books. The brochure makes them sound very exciting, but before plunking down $9.32 I would appreciate hearing from someone who has read one or more of these books. How about it? Can anyone give me a review? Positive or negative comments would be appreciated by mail or post. Thanks in advance, Tom Butler ..!ihnp4!ihuxn!ttb ------------------------------ From: rik@uf-csg.UUCP (Rik Faith [guest]) Subject: Carcinoma Angels Date: Sat, 3 Nov 84 17:24:24 MST Several years ago I read a short story by that title (Carcinoma Angels) about a guy who got cancer and cured himself by taking a weird concoction of drugs. I don't know who it's by or in what anthology it appears. If anybody out there knows who wrote this story, or where I can find a copy, please send mail. Thanks in advance. Rik Faith, student at the University of Florida, Gainesville UUCP: ..!akgua!uf-csv!uf-csg!rik [Is not life a hundred times to short for us to bore ourselves? -F.N.] ------------------------------ From: herbie@watdcsu.UUCP (Herb Chong, Computing Services) Subject: Re: Carcinoma Angels Date: Mon, 5 Nov 84 10:53:07 MST I think that it was in Dangerous Visions, or was it Again, Dangerous Visions, edited by Harlan Ellison. I could be wrong, since I don't have all my books with me at school. Herb Chong... I'm user-friendly -- I don't byte, I nybble.... UUCP: {decvax|utzoo|ihnp4|allegra|clyde}!watmath!watdcsu!herbie CSNET: herbie%watdcsu@waterloo.csnet ARPA: herbie%watdcsu%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa BITNET: herbie at watdcs,herbie at watdcsu ------------------------------ From: rsk@stat-l (Rich Kulawiec (Vombatus Hirsutus)) Subject: Re: Carcinoma Angels Date: Tue, 6 Nov 84 12:57:16 MST It's in "Dangerous Visions", edited by Harlan Ellison. It's a great tongue-in-cheek short about Harrison Wintergreen, who found that the world was his oyster when he looked at it sideways. ---Rsk UUCP: { decvax, icalqa, ihnp4, inuxc, sequent, uiucdcs } !pur-ee!rsk { decwrl, hplabs, icase, psuvax1, siemens, ucbvax } !purdue!rsk ------------------------------ From: consult@uwmacc.UUCP (MACC Consultants) Subject: Re: Carcinoma Angels Date: Tue, 13 Nov 84 22:28:22 MST Rik Faith writes: >Several years ago I read a short story by that title (Carcinoma >Angels) about a guy who got cancer and cured himself by taking a >weird concoction of drugs. I don't know who it's by or in what >anthology it appears. If anybody out there knows who wrote this >story, or where I can find a copy, please send mail. Thanks in >advance. The story was written by Norman Spinrad. He's also the author of THe Iron Dream, which says on the cover that it was written by Adolph Hitler. (to be explained) And he wrote at least one episode of Star Trek. Several years ago, Norman Spinrad came to speak to a science fiction class that I was taking. After the class, several of us went to the Union to have a beer with him. Someone asked him why there were motorcycle riders in many of his stories (including Carcinoma Angles and the Iron Dream). He said that he had spent a lot of time with some motorcycle gangs in California. He had some friends in the gangs, and they would sometimes show up at his house and invite him somewhere. He didn't dare offend them and not go, so he would sometimes disappear with them for several days. About The Iron Dream: According to the cover, it was written by Adolph Hitler. In the introduction, Spinrad says that Hitler 'dabbled in radical politics' in Germany, got frustrated, and moved to the U. S. in the early 30's, and began to write science fiction, including THe Iron Dream. Spinrad told us that he wrote the book by immersing (sp?) himself in everything Hitler had written, and everything written about him. (Including a 600 page book titled 'Hitler's Dinner conversations') He finished the book just in time for Mardi Gras, and got Hitler out of his system by going to New Orleans and partying for several days. I still have my copy of THe Iron Dream, which he autographed 'adolph Hitler'. Sue Brunkow U Wisconsin - MACC ...{allegra,seismo,ihnp4}!uwvax!uwmacc!consult (please put my name on any mail, I share this login.) ------------------------------ From: markv@dartvax.UUCP (Mark Vita) Subject: Re: Carcinoma Angels Date: Fri, 16 Nov 84 11:58:27 MST > The story was written by Norman Spinrad. He's also the author of > THe Iron Dream, which says on the cover that it was written by > Adolph Hitler. (to be explained) And he wrote at least one episode > of Star Trek. Yes, the Star Trek episode he wrote was "The Doomsday Machine". Mark Vita Dartmouth College USENET: {decvax,cornell,linus,astrovax}!dartvax!markv ARPA: markv%dartmouth@csnet-relay CSNET: markv@dartmouth ------------------------------ From: brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) Subject: New fantasy series - Tales from the DARK SIDE Date: Fri, 2 Nov 84 22:00:00 MST Has anybody else been seeing this show? It seems to be like a modern Twilight Zone. While the quality varies, some of the stories are quite good and have well-known actors. They say they were done in 1984, yet the local NBC affiliate is showing them monday nights at 1:30 am, after Letterman. Does anybody else know anything about this series? Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473 ------------------------------ From: ecl@hocsj.UUCP Subject: Re: TALES FROM THE DARK SIDE (reposting) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 84 09:25:16 MST Comments previously posted by Mark R. Leeper: > TALES FROM THE DARKSIDE is an anthology series produced by George > Romero (of NIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD fame). It is syndicated to > any local station who wants to fill a half hour here and there. > It had a shaky but interesting pilot about a year ago, with an > episode entitled "Trick or Treat." This time around the series > opener is called "I'll Give a Million." I expected it to leave me > yearning for the old TWILIGHT ZONEs I grew up with. Well, the > story might have been better compared to Alfred Hitchcock's old > half-hour show--it's more his style--but I'll give "I'll Give a > Million" is a better story than most of Serling's fare. It > concerns two wealthy, ruthless old codgers--a la TRADING > PLACES--who have been pulling shady deals for a long time. > Unexpectedly, one offers the other one million dollars for his > soul. Since neither is particularly religious, it sounds like a > good deal. Or is it? > Well, what can I tell you? I used to call TALES OF THE UNEXPECTED > "Tales of the Totally Predictable" but this story did keep me > guessing what was going on. There is something I like a lot about > the last five minutes or so, but to say anything about it would > rule out one or more of about five or six possible courses for the > plot. I don't want to do that so somebody (please!) who has seen > it, talk (write) to me about it so I can tell you what I liked. > Nice going, Mr. Romero. Nice touch at the end. It shows you are > more than just a horror story fan. > TV fantasy was good in the golden old days: the days of the first > couple of seasons of THE TWILIGHT ZONE, the first and maybe the > second season of STAR TREK, but even that was pretty spotty. This > is another of those golden years it seems, because TALES FROM THE > DARKSIDE so far has had more good episodes than bad. NIGHTMARES, > had it sold, would have had at least three good episodes. The > best shows were very good in the old days, just like the best of > British television is pretty good. But that does not mean that > the average show from Britain of the 1950's was all that good. It > may be that the highs are not as good. The best of TALES FROM THE > DARKSIDE may not affect us like the best of THE TWILIGHT ZONE, but > then series lasted longer in those days. ------------------------------ From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) Subject: Re: TALES FROM THE DARK SIDE (reposting) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 84 08:07:32 MST I ran across one of the DARK SIDE episodes a week or so ago, having stayed up unusually late. I watched it, after seeing the credits, because the writer was Harlan Ellison. Unfortunately, I guess it was late enough that my memory circuits were non-functional; I cannot recall anything other than that fact about the episode. A clue will probably bring it all back. I have the general impression that it was fairly good, though. Will ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 26-Nov SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #207 Date: 26 Nov 84 1423-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #207 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 26 Nov 84 1423-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #207 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 27 Nov 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 207 Today's Topics: ****** SPECIAL HARLAN ELLISON ISSUE - PART I ****** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: isiw@druri.UUCP (WattIS) Subject: Re: Yes, *H*A*R*L*A*N* *E*L*L*I*S*O*N* Date: Fri, 2 Nov 84 08:58:21 MST Well, I for one agree with the previous. If I read one more Harlan-Ellison-I'm-SO-depressed-and-nobody-likes-me-so-I'm-going-to- blow-up-the-whole-world story, I'm going to be ill. The guy has *no* understanding of the word "subtlety". His idea of compassion is maudlin sentimentality and shameless pandering to the popular swings of fandom. And all this "Final Dangerous Visions" crap - so he's got a writer's block, eh? On an *anthology*? Give me a break! He's a hack, just like all the others, it's just that he's a young hack who made it early enough so nobody wants to call him a hack, and now all the sf types who try to hold up an example of science fiction's literary legitimacy use *Harlan Ellison* as their shining example and give everyone who reads serious novels a good laugh. What a joke - the guy's been living in Hollywood too long, he finally believes all the nice things everybody says about him because they wouldn't know great writing if it came up and bit 'em. But at least he's got company - John Varley, George R. Martin, Barry B. Longyear, Anne McCaffrey (oh, those dragons are just *so* cute!). Meanwhile, mainstream fiction has Martin Cruz Smith, Mark Halprin, geez - even Rosemary Rogers writes better than they do! Wake up! Neat ideas and far-off worlds and fantastic expostions don't make up for bad characterization, weak plots, and no character development, no matter *how* many tribbles you strew around. If it wasn't for Gene Wolfe and Orson Scott Card holding up a mirror to the rest of their peers, the level would be even worse than it was in the alleged "Golden Age". These two are all that stands between sf and mediocre garbage, though you might include the new-improved Robert Silverberg if you were being charitable. Davis Tucker AT&T Information Systems Denver, CO P.S. - Stephen R. Donaldson is a hack, too. ------------------------------ From: render@uiucdcs.UUCP Subject: Re: Harlan Ellison Date: Fri, 2 Nov 84 12:02:00 MST Regarding the recent note concerning the "morbidity" and lack of humanity of Harlan Ellison, I find it hard to believe that anyone who has read any fair share of his work could question his feeling for people. Admittedly some of his stories are grim (i.e. "I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream") and most exhibit a cynical view of the human race, but it obviously stems from his deep concern for the poor way in which we present ourselves as a supposedly wise and caring species. Such works as "Jeffty is Five" and "Repent! Harlequin, Cried the Ticktockman" are warm, funny and supremely humane, while still challenging us to better ourselves. I would much rather read the works of a man who dares us to be what we should, as opposed to the stories of many authors who merely congratulate us on being such a grand folk. Comments, anyone? Hal Render U. of Illinois (uiucdcsb!render) ------------------------------ From: mwm@ea.UUCP Subject: Re: Re: Harlan Ellison Date: Fri, 2 Nov 84 13:22:00 MST I suppose if what you like is terminally depressing unrelieved morbidness, Ellision is the writer for you. Personally, I would rather read something that has at least one little glimmer of humanness somewhere in it. "Looking for Kadak" (sp?) terminally depressing unrelieved morbidness? Much of what Ellison writes is depressing, but *all* of it makes me think. I like that; that's why I like Ellison. It is much more enlightening and fun to read his (Ellison's) >commentary on just about anything. His acerbic wit makes his prose >on any subject enjoyable to read even if it pisses you off. It >makes you think as well. I certainly agree with that. My comments were strictly aimed at Ellison's fiction. A friend gave me a copy of a book of his short stories, saying "Here's his least depressing stuff" (She really liked Ellison), and they were as morbid as the rest of his stuff that I dislike. However, I did enjoy his introductions to the stories, and I have liked his nonfiction, such as his articles about his misadventures in TV land. ------------------------------ From: rh@mit-eddie.UUCP (Randy Haskins) Subject: Re: RE: Yes, *H*A*R*L*A*N* *E*L*L*I*S*O*N* Date: Sun, 4 Nov 84 20:22:41 MST I've seen him speak twice in the last few years, and he is an incredibly dynamic speaker. I also had the rare 'treat' of eating dinner with him the last time he was here. Well, let's just say this: having met him in person and spent time in a social situation, I'd be more content to continue reading his stuff than I would to be counted among his close personal friends. Oh, well. I was a bit disappointed, but that's life. I still find his writing to be the stuff that has what it takes. From the article... >I also highly recommend The Glass Teat/The Other Glass Teat for >biting, Sorry, but the fact that this line ended at the point it did really got to me.... ------------------------------ From: yteitz@aecom.UUCP (Yosef Teitz) Subject: Re: Re: Harlan Ellison Date: Mon, 5 Nov 84 21:27:45 MST > I suppose if what you like is terminally depressing unrelieved > morbidness, Ellision is the writer for you. Personally, I would > rather read something that has at least one little glimmer of > humanness somewhere in it. If you want humanity...try his stories: 1. Looking for Kadak--in Approaching Oblivion 2. The 3 Most Important Things in My Life--in Stalking the Nightmare. If you want others...just ask. yair griver... logging on as yteitz @ aecom ------------------------------ From: hsut@ecn-ee.UUCP Subject: Ellison and 'I Have No Mouth...' Date: Mon, 5 Nov 84 22:27:02 MST I enjoy a fair amount of Ellison's work, and also detest a lot of it. Ellison is more subtle than many people think (though he has also written stories that are gimmicky and less than inspiring). What no one has pointed out yet about "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream" is the POINT of VIEW of the narrator, which changes the tone of the story entirely. In an essay Ellison wrote about "I Have No Mouth..." (I don't remember where it was published --- should be easily available) the author stressed that the narrator used to be a compassionate and generous person. It is this compassionate nature that the computer warped and distorted, just as it had mutilated the other human survivors in more obvious ways. The story is cold, cruel and morbid because WE SEE IT THROUGH THE NARRATOR'S DISTORTED VIEWPOINT. It is an expression of the cynical and cruel personality generated by the computer in the narrator. There is more to Ellison than unrelieved gloom and pessimism. Try "Jefty Is Five" and "Paingod" for beautiful, human stories. Bill Hsu pur-ee!hsut ------------------------------ From: chabot@amber.DEC (L S Chabot) Subject: Re: Yes, *H*A*R*L*A*N* *E*L*L*I*S*O*N* Date: Tue, 6 Nov 84 13:43:46 MST Davis Tucker == > > He's a hack, just like all the others, it's just that he's a young > hack who made it early enough so nobody wants to call him a hack, > ... "Young"? Well, maybe "young at heart"? > What a joke - the guy's been living in Hollywood too long, ... "Hollywood"? Actually, it's Sherman Oaks. > But at least he's got company - John Varley, George R. Martin, > Barry B. Longyear, Anne McCaffrey ... Neat ideas and far-off > worlds and fantastic expostions don't make up for bad > characterization, weak plots, and no character development, no > matter *how* many tribbles you strew around. "Tribbles"? As far as I know, David Gerrold is the only one who's written about tribbles, and his name's not in that list up there. Perhaps you have the wrong Star Trek episode in mind. > If I read one more Harlan-Ellison-I'm-SO-depressed-and-nobody- > likes-me-so-I'm-going-to-blow-up-the-whole-world story, I'm going > to be ill. Gee, I've read all the Harlan Ellison books I could lay my eyes on, and I've never come across one of these stories. Anybody have any references? > And all this "Final Dangerous Visions" crap - so he's got a > writer's block, eh? On an *anthology*? Give me a break! Whatever the reasons for the delay are, are we to assume that you, David, have experience in producing anthologies? Or have you at least seen anthologies such as DV and ADV which do involve an amount of writing on the part of the editor? > ...he finally believes all the nice things everybody says about him > The guy has *no* understanding of the word "subtlety". His idea of > compassion is maudlin sentimentality and shameless pandering to > the popular swings of fandom. Weird. The usual line is that people say nasty things about Harlan Ellison (usually in fun, though). But of all the nasty things I've heard "maudlin sentimentality" and "pandering" were never among them. Did I miss something? Was that letter supposed to be a joke, or what? L S Chabot UUCP: ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot ARPA: ...chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl.ARPA USFail: DEC, MR03-1/K20, 2 Iron Way, Marlborough, MA 01752 ------------------------------ From: bes@drutx.UUCP Subject: Harlan Ellison Date: Tue, 6 Nov 84 09:11:30 MST Now that all you Ellison fans have come out of the closet so to speak, I have a question for you. I have heard that the novel upon which the movie A_Boy_and_His_Dog is based was written by Ellison. The book has a rather bizarre title that I can never seem to remember correctly, something like: Do_Androids_Dream_of_Electric_ Sheep?. Can anyone help me? Please email your replies. I'll post the answer to the net (these multiple answers are making my n-finger grow callus). Bruce Sizer Denver, CO ------------------------------ From: ariels@orca.UUCP (Ariel Shattan) Subject: Re: RE: Yes, *H*A*R*L*A*N* *E*L*L*I*S*O*N* Date: Wed, 7 Nov 84 11:04:24 MST Re: Harlan Ellison stories guaranteed not to depress you. Don't forget "I'm Looking For Kadak," to be found in Jack Dann's "Wandering Stars" collection. Kadak has to be the funniest Jewish extraterrestrial ever conceived. Ariel (So why am I talking to a butterfly?) Shattan ..!tektronix!orca!ariels ------------------------------ From: jdb@qubix.UUCP (Jeff Bulf) Subject: Re: Ellison Date: Wed, 7 Nov 84 17:11:28 MST Just a note here... In all the talk lately about Ellison, I'm a little surprised that nobody has mentioned _A Boy and His Dog_. Ellison's strengths are at their best in that one with the offbeat-but-deep friendship, and the gross violence that he does to the "Hollywood Happy Ending" is in the league with Blazing Saddles' assault on western cliches. At the same, Ellison's scary side comes across, too. If the sex of the characters had been reversed, I would have been hard put to keep my mind on the statement being made about friendship and priorities. Ellison has a fine eye for where you can be jerked into "Wait a minute, thats US he's talking about". He probably does us a subtle service by making us face our own pavlovian conditioning, but I would appreciate some help in the struggle, instead of just being thrown in. Foo, Im rambling on..... "Well I aint often right, but I've never been wrong; You know it seldom works out the way it does in a song" Dr Memory ...{amd,ucbvax,ihnp4}!qubix!jdb ------------------------------ From: chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Zonker T. Chuqui) Subject: Re: Yes, *H*A*R*L*A*N* *E*L*L*I*S*O*N* Date: Thu, 8 Nov 84 00:14:27 MST isiw@druri.UUCP writes: >If I read one more Harlan-Ellison-I'm-SO-depressed-and-nobody- >likes-me-so-I'm-going-to-blow-up-the-whole-world story, I'm going >to be ill. The guy has *no* understanding of the word "subtlety". >His idea of compassion is maudlin sentimentality and shameless >pandering to the popular swings of fandom. Hmm... I've never seen anyone accuse Harlan of being subtle. He isn't, and doesn't want to be. Maudlin sentimentality? shameless pandering? Are you sure you don't have one of those wonderfully high quality Star Trek novels in your hand? Harlan has been notoriously uneven for years-- at his worst he comes across as self-indulgent and immature but at his best he is one of the best writers in America. Period. His is not an easy form of literature to read because it makes you think and it forces you to consider the unpleasant aspects of life. He isn't a light read, but then neither are writers such as Kafka, Dante, Cervantes and most of the other classic writers. Of all of the SF that I feel will survive the test of time, Harlan's stuff is a good contender, along with Gene Wolfe's New Sun stuff and Bradbury. These authors will be around long after the Clarkes and Asimovs of the world are out of print because they aren't just good SF, they are good works of literature. That doesn't make them easy things to read, or enjoyable, but they are compelling and technically excellant. >And all this "Final Dangerous Visions" crap - so he's got a >writer's block, eh? On an *anthology*? Give me a break! He's a >hack, just like all the others, it's just that he's a You obviously have never seriously tried to write. I could make a snide comment about the chances of your success by the quality of your posting, but I'll be nice and refrain. Anthologies are a LOT of work. Harlan's writers block also had a physiological base (there was an article in Locus a few issues back on this-- I can detail it if neccessary) that made it impossible for him to work at all. One thing Harlan has NEVER been is a hack. Just ask all of those castrated editors who tried to modify his work when he didn't agree with their changes. Hacks care about money, Harlan cares about words... >But at least he's got company - John Varley, George R. Martin, >Barry B. Longyear, Anne McCaffrey (oh, those dragons are just *so* >cute!). Oooh, lets just take a potshot at ALL of SF while we're at it. Jump on Issac, jump on Arthur, you forgot Terry Carr and R. A. MacAvoy, too. >Mean while, mainstream fiction has Martin Cruz Smith, Mark Halprin, >geez - even Rosemary Rogers writes better than they do! Wake up! >Neat ideas and far-off worlds and fantastic expostions don't make >up for bad characterization, weak plots, and no character >development, no matter *how* many tribbles you strew around. There are at least as many BAD authors in 'mainstream' as there are in any genre. Perhaps more. You can put the best SF authors and worst mainstream people together and get just as biased a discussion in the other direction. It sounds to my like you simply have a bias against SF. chuq From the Department of Bistromatics: Chuq Von Rospach {cbosgd,decwrl,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 26-Nov SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #208 Date: 26 Nov 84 1429-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #208 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 26 Nov 84 1429-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #208 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 27 Nov 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 208 Today's Topics: ****** SPECIAL HARLAN ELLISON ISSUE - PART II ****** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hsut@ecn-ee.UUCP Subject: Re: Harlan Ellison Date: Thu, 8 Nov 84 00:32:06 MST The movie is based on Ellison's novella "A Boy And His Dog". The story won a nebula and has been anthologized many times. It can be found in collections of nebula-winning stories, Ellison's "The Beast That Shouted Love At The Heart of the World and other stories", and numerous other books. The movie is easily obtainable on videotape and follows the story rather closely. The punch line at the end of the movie (not in the novella) is offensive to people with no stomach for puns... Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? is a novel by Philip K. Dick. The movie based on DADOES is Blade Runner, a vastly superior movie to A Boy And His Dog. I've seen both movies several times and enjoyed them immensely. Bill Hsu pur-ee!hsut ------------------------------ From: isiw@druri.UUCP (WattIS) Subject: Re: Yes, *H*A*R*L*A*N* *E*L*L*I*S*O*N* Date: Thu, 8 Nov 84 09:48:52 MST Well, well, well, chuq... You should have your reader's license suspended for reading while indoctrinated if you can even utter Ellison's name in the same *day* as Kafka, Dante, and Cervantes! Just because he's written some good stuff (I do agree with you there - he's come through a few times, but...) does not qualify him as an artist, nor does it qualify his work as literature. Ask any English teacher. BTW, even hacks don't like their work changed (just like hackers don't like their code changed...) - even Alan Dean Foster barks a few times, I would think. But just because Ellison has garnered a rep as being *the* enfant terrible of the genre is no reason to assume that the words he defends are any good. "The squeaky wheel gets the grease" - that's all it means. Anthologies I have had experience with, as well as working on a large newspaper. Ellison has no excuse for 10 years of "writer's block" on what could be at most 40 pages which don't require much creativity, just background information and a little fanfare by way of introduction (I'm not going to mention his penchant for self-indulgent forewords in the previous DV-ADV... let's just say those forewords are so odious they could gag a maggot on a meat wagon). You're probably right about mainstream fiction and *its* hacks. I bow to that one - mainly, I read magazines like "Easyrider", "Hustler", "Gung-Ho!", "Reader's Digest", "Ebony", "Tiger Beat", "Mad", "Parade", "People", "Us", and "National Enquirer". So I'm not so up-to-snuff. And as far as Gene Wolfe goes, I agree with you double on that one. He's so far above the rest of his peers... I just hope the quality of his literature inspires others in the genre to get out of their ruts and try to rise above their sometimes painfully obvious levels of incompetence. It's about time. Davis Tucker AT&T Information Systems Denver, CO ------------------------------ From: jimb@amd.UUCP (Jim Budler) Subject: Re: Harlan Ellison Date: Thu, 8 Nov 84 15:17:22 MST bes@drutx.UUCP writes: >Now that all you Ellison fans have come out of the closet so to >speak, movie A_Boy_and_His_Dog is based was written by Ellison. >The book has a rather bizarre title that I can never seem to >remember correctly, something like: Do_Androids_Dream_of_Electric_ >Sheep?. Can anyone help I don't know much about Ellison but 'Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep' was by Philip K. Dick and is the basis of Bladerunner. Jim Budler Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. (408) 982-6547 UUCPnet: {ucbvax,decwrl,ihnp4,allegra,intelca}!amd!jimb Compuserve ID: 72415,1200 ------------------------------ From: chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Zonker T. Chuqui) Subject: Re: Re: Harlan Ellison Date: Thu, 8 Nov 84 00:53:33 MST mwm@ea.UUCP writes: >I suppose if what you like is terminally depressing unrelieved >morbidness, Ellision is the writer for you. Personally, I would >rather read something that has at least one little glimmer of >humanness somewhere in it. If this is what you want, I suggest Kurt Vonnegut instead. Harlan does have a warmer side (Repent, Harlequin! comes to mind) although even then he bites. Vonnegut is unrepentently depressing. So is Heller, for that matter. chuq From the Department of Bistromatics: Chuq Von Rospach {cbosgd,decwrl,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ From: barry@ames.UUCP (Kenn Barry) Subject: Re: Harlan Ellison Date: Fri, 9 Nov 84 12:41:56 MST I have a question: a number of people have mentioned a "writer's block" in connection with Ellison's delays getting LAST DANGEROUS VISIONS to the publishers. Since it's now been about 10 years since the original date announced for the publication of LDV, and since Ellison has written MANY stories in the last decade, my question is this: WHAT writer's block? Does it only affect his writing of introductions to other people's stories? This question is not meant sarcastically; perhaps such a specialized sort of writer's block is possible. I am genuinely curious if anyone has any hard information on this. Can anybody help? - From the Crow's Nest - Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA Electric Avenue: {dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames!barry ------------------------------ From: ecl@hocsj.UUCP Subject: Re: Ellison vs. Kafka, Dante, & Cervantes Date: Fri, 9 Nov 84 15:07:24 MST > You should have your reader's license suspended for reading while > indoctrinated if you can even utter Ellison's name in the same > *day* as Kafka, Dante, and Cervantes! Just because he's written > some good stuff (I do agree with you there - he's come through a > few times, but...) does not qualify him as an artist, nor does it > qualify his work as literature. Ask any English teacher. And what the hell would an *English* teacher know about *any* of the authors mentioned? Kafka wrote in German, Dante in Italian, and Cervantes in Spanish. I don't claim Ellison is as good as any of the above, but far too many people in this country (USA) think that everyone wrote in English. In the current discussion of Borges's "Library of Babel," for example, the question of exact meaning can be resolved only by looking at the original Spanish. You can enjoy the works in translation, of course, but *English* teachers are not the ones to go to for a discussion of their merit. BTW, Kafka and Dante are great fantasy! (So is Milton--and he did write in English!) The daughter of a Spanish professor, hence somewhat biased, Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!hocsj!ecl ------------------------------ From: davison@bnl.UUCP (daniel burton davison) Subject: Re: Harlan Ellison Date: Sun, 11 Nov 84 18:40:53 MST bes@drutx.UUCP writes: > >Now that all you Ellison fans have come out of the closet so to > >speak, movie A_Boy_and_His_Dog is based was written by Ellison. > >The book has a rather bizarre title that I can never seem to > >remember correctly, something like: > >Do_Androids_Dream_of_Electric_Sheep?. Can anyone help > > I don't know much about Ellison but 'Do Androids Dream of Electric > Sheep' was by Philip K. Dick and is the basis of Bladerunner. > Jim Budler > Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. > (408) 982-6547 > UUCPnet: {ucbvax,decwrl,ihnp4,allegra,intelca}!amd!jimb > Compuserve ID: 72415,1200 The story that "A Boy and His Dog" came from was "Blood's a rover"; it's in one of the numerous ellison collections, perhaps a nth Dangerous Vision. I heard him read "Blood's a rover" at a con a while ago; it was *very* effective. dan davison uucp: ..decvax!philabs!sbcs!bnl!davison arpa: davison@bnl ------------------------------ From: kalash@ucbcad.UUCP Subject: Re: Re: Harlan Ellison Date: Tue, 13 Nov 84 10:24:50 MST > The story that "A Boy and His Dog" came from was "Blood's a rover"; Nope, the movie "A Boy and His Dog" came from the story "A Boy and His Dog". The story "Blood's a Rover" is a sequel (or maybe a prequel) written after "A Boy and His Dog". Joe Kalash kalash@berkeley ucbvax!kalash ------------------------------ From: demillo@uwmacc.UUCP (Rob DeMillo) Subject: Re: Yes, *H*A*R*L*A*N* *E*L*L*I*S*O*N* Date: Tue, 13 Nov 84 12:03:50 MST > Harlan Ellison writes about the human condition, which, as much as > some of us might like to believe, isn't a 100% warm, cuddly and > soft place. If one can't feel sympathy and the pain behind the > characters in the "Paingod" collection, the frustration in the > "Gentleman Junkie..." collection, and the revenge, and hatred, and > indifference in other stories of his, then I daresay that you lack > the glimmer of "humanness" that you claim to seek. > Writing Harlan Ellison of as "morbid" is doing him a great > injustice. > tim lasko {decvax, allegra, ihnp4, et. > al.}!decvax!dec-rhea!dec-regina!lasko DEC, Maynard, Mass. I used to swallow up material from Ellison as fast as he could produce it. (Well, OK, slight exaggeration there...at any rate, I read him a lot.) I used to like him quite a bit, and I still agree with his viewpoints to some extent. Also, his socio/political (non-fiction) writings, as in "The Glass Teat", are wonderful. He is about as close to being Hunter Thompson as one can be without being Hunter Thompson... ...(yup, here it comes)...HOWEVER.... I have come to the conclusion that the man writes himself into a trap. In his strive for "telling it like it is," he's forgotten almost entirely about the other side of humanity...the side of us that hopes, dreams and strives (whether we fail or not, some of us DO strive).. he's become obsessed with sitting and brooding about how rotten we all are. In all things, especially writing, we should try and keep and open mind. Tim Lasko also wrote that he does not base his opinion of people on their "social graces." (Forgive me, Tim, if I am misquoting you... and corrct me if I am taking you out of context.) That, however, is a large window into someone's personality, and what is writing if not a reflection of the person doing the writing? Don't get me wrong, Ellison is a very elloquent, brilliant writer... he is also, unfortunately, vearing toward manic depression about humanity... ...ah, I can hear him calling me a "pinko, twit bastard" right now...so be it... One final word about Ellison that has bothered me for a long time...he seems to be quite a poor sport. I have a copy of a letter from him when StarTrek was about to be taken off the air...saying that StarTrek is the best thing since slice bread....after some disagreements with Roddenberry over his "City On the Edge of Forever" script, and, more recently, in the refusal in accepting his script for the ST movies, Ellison suddenly began attaching labels on StarTrek like "pablum for the mind." StarTrek is only one example of many from his past track record... ...just something to think about when you evaluate the man... --- Rob DeMillo MACC ...seismo!uwvax!demillo@uwmacc ------------------------------ From: chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Cheshire Chuqui) Subject: Re: Harlan Ellison Date: Sun, 18 Nov 84 15:48:11 MST barry@ames.UUCP (Kenn Barry) writes: > I have a question: a number of people have mentioned a >"writer's block" in connection with Ellison's delays getting LAST >DANGEROUS VISIONS to the publishers. The article I used as a basis for my comments is from Locus #283. The following excerpts should clarify things: [from Harlan Ellison, Back From the Depths; Locus #283, used without permission] Harlan Ellison, after 10 years of massive writer's block, is working again and finally finishing old projects, thanks to a little help from his friends. "When I turned forty, something happened to my metabolism. I have always had a peculiar metabolism-- I don't use drugs or drink because I can't. Ten years ago I took on major projects: The Last Dangerous Visions, The Harlan Ellison Hornbook, and a lot of other books that haven't come out. I was only halfway through when the trouble worsened." Ellison developed uncontrollable rages, leg tremors at night, insomnia, memory loss, lack of sex drive, and trouble concentrating. Although he was still able to crank out the occasional short story, his other projects all came to a halt. Finally he read an article in New York magazine on Endogenous Depression. Unlike emotional depression, which results from outside causes, this is due to a biochemical imbalance. Five years of specialists, tests, drugs, and $30,000 later, they decided his illness was unique and incurable. "I am still sick, but now when I feel the lassitude I slap my face to get the adrenalin going and work up my anger. I am working every day." From the Department of Bistromatics: Chuq Von Rospach {cbosgd,decwrl,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Nov 84 06:32:40 pst From: utcsrgv!mcgill-vision!mcgill-vision!mouse@uw-beaver.arpa (der From: Mouse) Subject: *H*A*R*L*A*N* *E*L*L*I*S*O*N* vs. harlan ellison Sorry. I just do not like Harlan Ellison's work. Those of you who do please feel free to skip this. I think the real reason I don't care for his stuff is the general tone, which strikes me as bringing out the worst in either us or others. Perhaps this is intended as satire or some such form of humor, but if so, the negativity is strong enough to hide it from me, at least when I'm reading to enjoy rather than reading to criticize. Just my opinion.... der Mouse ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 27-Nov SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #209 Date: 27 Nov 84 0944-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #209 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 27 Nov 84 0944-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #209 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 27 Nov 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 209 Today's Topics: Books - Asprin (2 msgs) & Eddings (3 msgs) & Lynn & Wolfe (2 msgs), Television - Star Trek (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Plausibility in SF & SF Book Club ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mcdonald@smu.UUCP Subject: Re: Orphaned Response Date: Wed, 31 Oct 84 08:49:00 MST WaRP does indeed plan to put out four issues of MythAdventures a year. They plan to follow all the books exactly, at a rate of six issues per book; the first three have appeared. Foglio's art is amazing; the demons have more expressive range than you'd expect from humans... There are humorous details in almost every panel that you may not catch until the third reading. The most reliable way to get it will be to subscribe. (I'm sorry I don't have the address with me.) You can also find it at comics specialty stores, but some of them seem to have trouble keeping it in stock. The rumor I hear is that some of their distributors are hoarding. (I have not heard any reason why they would do this. WaRP books can't be collector's items any time in the near future, as WaRP keeps them in print until the series ends.) Erin McDonald ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Orphaned Response Date: Wed, 31 Oct 84 08:41:00 MST From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] The comic book is being done by the Same people who brought you ElfQuest....Wendy and Richard Pini. It is following the first book exactly, and is drawn by Phil Foglio (who did the cover for the latest Myth* book in trade paperback edition). I believe it is on a quarterly schedule, but I may be wrong. You can order it from the publishers, and it is probably available elsewhere, but I dont know where. I can get more information, but I can't send out to netland personally, so this will do people little good. have fun /amqueue ------------------------------ From: sanders@aecom.UUCP (Jeremy Sanders) Subject: Enchanters' Endgame Date: Mon, 19 Nov 84 16:39:50 MST Yes, its been a long wait (though not as long as some others I remember), but "Enchanter's Endgame" the fifth and final book in David Eddings Belgariad just hit the stands. I recommend this whole series as one of the best to come out in the last ten years. Jeremy Sanders aecom!sanders ------------------------------ From: jeffh@brl-tgr.ARPA (Jeff Hanes ) Subject: Re: Enchanters' Endgame Date: Tue, 20 Nov 84 07:53:01 MST >... "Enchanter's Endgame" the fifth and final book in David Eddings >Belgariad just hit the stands. I recommend this whole series as one >of the best to come out in the last ten years. > Jeremy Sanders I, too, have been waiting for this to come out. I started it Sunday afternoon and finished it Sunday evening (with only one stop for food). As you might guess, i did enjoy it very much, but I do have some complaints. I feel rather let down by the ending of the book. I don't know why, maybe I was just expecting him to do something really original. After all, the concept was good, his writing has a quality and wit that is far too rare in this genre, the characters were well drawn and (mostly) believable. What more could I ask for? [ ... Spoiler Alert ... Spoiler Alert ... Spoiler Alert ... ] Well, for starters, I wish that it didn't have such a @!##$@*! Hollywood ending. Everybody (well, almost) gets married and is expected to "live happily ever after" (except Garion, his rather forced marriage has all the seeds for a really hen-pecked husband). I often felt that characters were thrown at each other and told to be "in love" without getting a chance to know each other and develop any sort of true understanding. The best example is probably Adara, the "true confession" scene wherein she expresses her love for Hettar as she lies (she thinks) dying rings totally false. It's just too contrived to feel true. This applies to most of the romances. I'm not opposed to romance or happy endings, but I would have liked a little more originality and a little less reliance on old, worn-out formulae for a happy end. In all, this book feels more rushed than the first four. It seems that the author lost control of some of his characters and relied on cliche to carry them rather than maintaining the expressive writing style that I was starting to expect from him. Perhaps he had too many people populating his book and tried to give them all equal access to center stage, but didn't have the time to craft each appearance for maximum effect. Finally, the confrontation with Torak, though exciting, left me with no real impression other than "Oh well, another Ultimate-Evil-in- the-Universe-gets-destroyed-novel." I'm tired of that sort of stuff. Why can't more fantasy literature take a realistic approach to this subject, i.e. that evil resides in each of us, and that the true war between good and evil lies in the internal struggle rather than in destroying some great EVIL being. (sigh, I'll get off my soapbox, now) Whatever "technical and philosophical points" the author was trying to develop apparently got lost in the telling of one more good-destroys-evil fantasy story. And that is very disappointing, because he had the potential to do much better than that. I still recommend the series highly. It's exciting, often humourous, and has some of the most enjoyable characters I've seen in a long time. It stands far above most fantasy literature in quality and concept. Read it. Posted by: Jeff Hanes USnail: 508 Wheel Rd. UUCP:{seismo,decvax}!brl-bmd!jeffh Bel Air, MD 21014 ARPA: ------------------------------ From: avolio@grendel.UUCP (Frederick M. Avolio) Subject: Book Five of The Belgariad out! Date: Tue, 20 Nov 84 17:31:26 MST Enchanter's End Game by David Eddings Ballantine Books $3.50 (U.S) Now, I know how things on this net go. Either 1) I am the only one who liked books 1-4 (Pawn of Prophecy, Queen of Sorcery, Magician's Gambit, Castle of Wizardry), 2) this was already announced by 30 or 40 of you last week when a) Grendel was down due to hard disk errors after which it b) came up with a bad old version of rnews and tossed out a few hundred articles, or 3) even as I type this 20 or so others are typing in this very same scoop (the theory of the parallel network (wow!). What the heck -- I took a shot. (Hey, this could've been a lot shorter!) Fred Avolio, DEC -- U{LTR,N}IX Support 301/731-4100 x4227 UUCP: {seismo,decvax}!grendel!avolio ARPA: grendel!avolio@seismo.ARPA ------------------------------ From: ecl@hocsj.UUCP Subject: SILVER HORSE Date: Thu, 1 Nov 84 14:05:29 MST SILVER HORSE by Elizabeth A. Lynn A book review by Mark R. Leeper Last month I reviewed a Bluejay Books release, DARKER THAN YOU THINK by Jack Williamson. This month I got another Bluejay Books story to read. THE SILVER HORSE is by World Fantasy Award-winning author Elizabeth Lynn. It's about a little girl who dreams she is in Storyland where all the toys that never got proper names end up. She meets several toys that come to life and has an adventure saving her brother from Dreamland, where he is a prisoner of the Dreamlady. The illustrations by Jeanne Gomoll aren't any good either. (Evelyn C. Leeper for) Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!lznv!mrl ------------------------------ From: ian@loral.UUCP (Ian Kaplan) Subject: Gene Wolfe's The Book of the New Sun Date: Fri, 9 Nov 84 18:51:25 MST While reading some of the repartee concerning Harlan Ellison (including those oh so sage comments from the oh so ever present Chuq), I saw several references to Gene Wolfe's four book series, collectively know as "The Book of the New Sun". There seems to be relatively wide agreement that these are excellent books. I too have read all four of the New Sun books, plus most of Wolfe's other books. From this I guess it could be concluded that I like Wolfe, and it is true. I liked the New Sun books because of the writing style, Wolfe's descriptions and the action element of the story. In these books Wolfe has woven an incredibly complex plot whose central point I hoped would be revealed in the last book. For me at least, this did not happen and the books remain enigmatic. In the last few pages of the last New Sun book, "The Citadel of the Autarch", the new Autarch, whose previous career we have followed, states that he is leaving the Book of the New Sun behind on earth and going to meet the extra-terrestrials. While on this flight he will rewrite the book a second time. Since he has perfect memory, he can reproduce the book exactly. He says that if you don't understand the book, read it a second time, just as he is writing it a second time. I have not done this yet. Even though the plot of Wolfe's New Sun seems to be only a collection of strange events, I believe that it is clear that the books contain more. I just have not discovered it yet. The question I pose to you out in net land is what ties the events in the book together. Those of you who believe Wolfe to be such a great writer presumably see what I have missed. If you don't, I wonder if perhaps you are confusing Wolfe's obscureness with literary greatness. I like Wolfe, but I am not yet convinced that he is a great american writer. Well I hope that this will provide much interesting discussion and perhaps some enlightenment for Ian Kaplan Loral Data Flow Group ------------------------------ From: cjh@petsd.UUCP (Chris Henrich) Subject: Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun Date: Wed, 14 Nov 84 12:09:01 MST Ian Kaplan writes: In these books Wolfe has woven an incredibly complex plot whose central point I hoped would be revealed in the last book. For me at least, this did not happen and the books remain enigmatic. In the last few pages of the last New Sun book, "The Citadel of the Autarch", the new Autarch, whose previous career we have followed, states that he is leaving the Book of the New Sun behind on earth and going to meet the extra-terrestrials. While on this flight he will rewrite the book a second time. Since he has perfect memory, he can reproduce the book exactly. He says that if you don't understand the book, read it a second time, just as he is writing it a second time. I found that repeated readings of these books were needed, not only to refresh my memory of them (they came out at intervals of 8 to 12 months) but also to understand them at all. Wolfe apparently wants the reader to work hard (as witness his use of obscure words, not explained), and in many places a "throw-away line" clarifies something that appeared hundreds of pages back, or even in a previous volume. What does it all mean? I don't know that it *has* to mean anything. If a book engages the reader's attention and gives enjoyment, then it is satisfactory. If it survives several attentive rereadings, and still gives enjoyment, it is excellent. I think _The_New_Sun_ qualifies. One reservation: Severian's promotion to the position of Autarch seems unmotivated; i.e. it does not make sense in the context of the book. (Even the characters in the book seem to feel their world is pretty weird.) This is a defect, and is not repaired by having the previous Autarch suggest that indeed it was unmotivated. But maybe, the next time around, I'll see why Severian was the obvious choice, and this was the obvious thing to happen to him. Regards, Chris Full-Name: Christopher J. Henrich UUCP: ..!(cornell | ariel | ukc | houxz)!vax135!petsd!cjh US Mail: MS 313; Perkin-Elmer; 106 Apple St; Tinton Falls, NJ 07724 Phone: (201) 870-5853 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Nov 84 13:09:12 EST From: Craig MacFarlane Subject: 3-D chess? To: cracraft@sri-tsc.arpa Does anyone out there have any info on how the 3-D chess game is played that appearred in the Star Trek series? I know how to build it and set up the pieces, but thats about it... thanks, [raig cmacfarlane@bbnccj ------------------------------ Date: Mon Nov 26 16:10:17 1984 From: cracraft@sri-tsca To: cmacfarl@BBNCCJ.ARPA Subject: Re: 3-D chess? I think the 3-D Star Trek chess game was just a prop. I've tried to get a duplicate, but it is not easy. There is another type of 3-D chess game which has 3 full-sized boards one over the other. I think the resulting game is too complicated and confusing to be enjoyable. Stuart ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Nov 84 06:33:15 pst From: utcsrgv!mcgill-vision!mcgill-vision!mouse@uw-beaver.arpa (der From: Mouse) Subject: Plausibility in SF Well, here are my two cents on the believability, plausibility, et cetera controversy. I read both sf and fantasy, though for different reasons (and hence I like fairly restricted subclasses of each). The sort of sf I read is the sort which takes one or two (or some small number of) assumptions which are either "impossible" or simply beyond what we can do today (though maybe we can see how we'd do it tomorrow). For example, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress (Heinlein) assumes two things (Turing-potential computers and colonization of Luna) and builds the rest on those two and hard science as we know it today. Ringworld assumes several things (Scrith, various aliens, a *lot* of technology), but the rest is fairly consistent (see also below). This is the "new idea" sort of sf; perhaps that's why I like it. Fantasy I read for escapism. This means stuff like Darkover, The Lord of the Rings, Anne McCaffrey (various books), Amber (Zelazny), Lord Darcy (Randall Garret), Gray Mouser (Fritz Lieber), etc. Generally, this involves a heavy dash of magic in some form (usually psi powers, though usually not so called)). This of course runs counter to the reasons I read sf (does it now? Somebody said that magic was just not-yet-understood science). I will also read a work in either genre which builds a detailed and internally consistent world, such as Dune (which doesn't really fit either of the previous two paragraphs). Yes yes, calm down, I'm sure Dune has internal inconsistencies. The thing is, they were either minor enough or hidden enough that I didn't notice them. Or, for example, Ringworld. I'm not sure why I read these; I guess I just enjoy any well-built world. der Mouse Hacker: Someone who destroys / Wizard: Someone who brings it back ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Nov 84 23:56:46 EST From: Bob Clements Subject: SF Book Club I am finally tired of checking the "No, don't send me that junk" box on my SF Book Club form, and I'm going to cancel. I'd like to know whether anyone knows of an address which might reach the editorial staff of the Club, rather than just the mailing computer. I would really like to let them know why I am giving up. In case anyone is interested, or would like to discuss it or flame about it, my reason is mainly that I want Science Fiction and they aren't providing it lately. They have stopped carrying the annual Best of and Orbit and Universe class books. Most of the selections have Swords, sorcerors, dragons, unicorns and barbarians. That's Fantasy, not Science Fiction, in my book. I like a dash of Fantasy now and then, and have subscribed to F&SF for eons. But I think the Club has gone off the deep end in the F department and forgotten the SF. /Rcc ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 28-Nov SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #210 Date: 28 Nov 84 1316-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #210 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 28 Nov 84 1316-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #210 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 28 Nov 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 210 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Ellison (3 msgs) & Wolfe & Book Reviews, Miscellaneous - Hitch Hiker's Game ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon 26 Nov 84 23:04:47-EST From: Janice Subject: Asimov's robots I'm not sure whether or not there's any direct evidence that Asimov intends Lije Baley and R. Daneel to be in the same universe as that of U.S. Robots, but given his present tendency to tie everything together I'd suspect it is. In general I am willing to forgive minor inconsistencies produced by such tying together of stories written at different times. However, such forgiveness is not required in the case of ROBOTS OF DAWN. If you reread "The Bicentennial Man" you will find that Andrew was a fluke, not supposed to have come out the way he did. You will also find that in reaction to that fluke, U.S. Robots (corporate fascists that they were) started making robots less and less independent minded (and thus less humanoid). More importantly, Andrew was *NOT* humaniform in the sense that R. Daneel is. He got his brain put into a biologically human body. This is not the same as creating an artificial body which appears to function like that of a human. The important point in "The Bicentennial Man" is not that Andrew becomes humaniform but that he becomes HUMAN. Janice ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Nov 84 10:28 EST From: schneider.WBST@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: Again, Harlan Ellison SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #207 After having read this issue of SFlovers, I draw the following conclusion about Harlan Ellison: he's certainly the most thought provoking author SF has offered in some time, and borders on genius. And how could one possibly enjoy, or at least, respect Ellison's work? If one will let go of his own fantasies regarding the human condition long enough to realize that the world ain't always a pretty place to live, one would see that Ellison grasps the dark side of the psyche firmly; if someone would say that "A Boy and His Dog" was simply morose claptrap and bullfeathers, I would ask you, why are so many women and children in this country treated in much the same way as in Ellison's fictional society? Come on folks, give it up, SF is not always escapist fare. Ellison throws our own shortcomings back in our faces, smack where we don't want them to be: where we can see them vividly. Regards- zot PS- The movie "A Boy and His Dog" was based on a story of the same title by Ellison, but I read it in a borrowed book. PPS- I wonder what Ellison might think of all this? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Nov 84 12:29:20 EST From: Daniel Dern Subject: Harlan Ellison & Manners In reading SF-LOVERS for the past year and a half, I have noticed a tendency for the focus of debate on topics to often digress from talking either about a work one has read/seen/heard, or how you reacted to it, felt about it, feel during/after it, what it reminded you...eventually drifting down to picking apart the creator and/or the "science". Particularly when somebody doesn't like an author, concept, etc., this can radidly degenerate into mud-slinging and trashing. We've had our periods of dumping on everything from Donaldson and Asimov and Heinlein to (currently) DUNE and Harlan Ellison. May I politely remind the readership that some of the people you are flinging mud at may either be reading this directly, or be shown it by friends. I'm clearly not the only SFWA (Science Fiction Writers of America) member getting SF-LOVERS. Kindly separate your remarks about Harlan Ellison (as an example) from specific works or his work in general. And think about whether you have all the facts. Harlan isn't going around criticising your C programs and shellscripts. And if he did, I doubt he'd immediately lambast everything else you'd done professionally, sight unseen, or then analyze and criticize your own personality defects. I had Harlan as one of my instructors at the 1973 Clarion Science Fiction Writers Workshop (East). I've seen him speak; have two of his albums; and have read (and re-read) a substantial amount of his work, plus his extensive introductions, essays, and notes, and other related biographical and critical essays on him and his works. (I.e., about what anyone reading sf compulsively and rapidly for ten or twenty years knows.) I won't place Harlan's works at the top of my sf pantheon, but he never asked to be. Put within the historical framework of sf, Harlan has been one of those authors who grew with the times, developed levels of quality, depth, originality, style, and relevance that a lot of other authors I won't name never even tried and failed at. Some of his work is so-so. Some of it is (in my opinion) excellent. Most of it is "a good read". He works hard at what he does, tries to be a professional, and is doing it to earn a living. Frankly, I have looked at some of the authors and books gushed over in this newsletter, and I don't understand what the fuss is at all. (I won't name names here; it's my opinion, and this is not the place to kick off more mud-flinging.) But Harlan and his work need no defending. They speak for themselves. Read some of his earlier collections of non-sf. Read some of his more recent works. What does need attending to is the level of manners here at times. Can we tone it down a bit, please? SF-LOVERS is not the only netmail that gets out of hand at times, but that's no excuse. Just bear in mind that your subject may be reading what you write, hmm? And I'd like to hear more about more? What's up in the magazines these days? Is anybody writing or reading original short sf? Is there anything happening these days besides sequels to trilogies, thud-and-blunder, sword-and-sorcery, and other imitation adventures? Is the 'sequel' to THE SPACE MERCHANTS any good? What do you all think about Barry Malzberg's definitions, comments, historical summaries, and analyses of sf in ENGINES OF THE NIGHT? What d'ya think of A MATTER FOR MEN (?) by David Gerrold? Do you feel that TALES OF NEVERYONE (Delaney) is trying to make one or more specific points, or is more an experiental book? And, either way, how do you relate this to DHALGREN, TRITON, and HEAVENLY BREAKFAST? What sf books do you feel still hold up today? Do you read Phillip Wylie, Bernard Wolf, or Gerald Kersh? Do you feel that the increased popularity of low-content sf/fantasy is doing a Gresham's Law on that which we held to be near and dear to us? How many times have you read ENGINE SUMMER? Did you feel that the style in RIDDLEY WALKER was successful and essential? How do you feel about DAVY, by Edgar Pangborn? How did you get started reading SF; what have you read? Have you read Patricia McKillip's RIDDLE OF STARS trilogy, and if so, how many times? Do you prefer 'genre' sf or non-genre sf? Do you feel that general writers can, as a rule, write sf acceptably when they try, or are more often to fail? Do you feel that writers like John D. MacDonald and Steven King, to name a few, cross the line well? Do you feel that "When It Changed" was indeed a pivotal story in sf? Do you care whether the Darkover stories maintain continuity? Is there a lamppost in YOUR closet? Daniel P. Dern ------------------------------ Date: Wed 28 Nov 84 08:15:46-EST From: Elizabeth Willey Subject: Re...:Harlan Ellison Even people who don't like Ellison's fiction should try his nonfiction. Most recent is _Sleepless_Nights_in_the_Procrustean_ Bed_, an anthology of short essays about everything from his own late mother to video games to dating games. eliz ------------------------------ From: donn@utah-gr.UUCP (Donn Seeley) Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun Date: Fri, 23 Nov 84 06:27:52 MST I've been out of town and just recently managed to get caught up with everything -- otherwise I would have attended to this earlier. (Perhaps not coincidentally, my trip was to recover my library from storage, including THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN!) Beware: some spoilers may lurk in the following discussion... In the last chapter of THE CITADEL OF THE AUTARCH, Severian says: Have I told you all I promised? I am aware that at various places in my narrative I have pledged that this or that should be made clear in the knitting up of the story. I remember them all, I am sure, but then I remember so much else. Before you assume that I have cheated you, read again, as I will write again. Wolfe is something of a fan of detective fiction (as you might guess from his story 'The Rubber Bend'), and the last several chapters consist of the summation which the great detective always makes at the end of the story. Of course Wolfe doesn't want to spoil the fun of finding the answers, so he answers things obliquely, and you have to read carefully to guess at what particular puzzle is being explained. I don't like to spoil the fun either, but I will mention some points to direct your re-reading that stem from things I've noticed or read elsewhere. + Easy one: Can you draw Severian's family tree? There are a number of red herrings which appear in the course of the books but the answer to this is fairly clear by the end of CITADEL. + What is the connection between the gold coin which Vodalus gave to Severian, and Dr. Talos? What relates it to the Sun and to the old mausoleum in the necropolis of the Citadel? Bonus question, unrelated: What was the original function of the Citadel? + What generates the apparitions of Master Malrubius and the dog, Triskele? This should be easy to answer, perhaps more so because of the recent Asimov novel. (There does seem to be a curious parallel between Asimov's universe and Wolfe's...) + What really happened in the climactic event of THE CLAW OF THE CONCILIATOR? I don't believe this is stated directly but it is relatively straightforward to guess. + What is the basis of the Urthian religion? Analogies with at least two of our religions come to mind. + Who is the Conciliator? What is Severian's connection to him, and to the New Sun? Who is responsible for this connection? + Finally, why is a rose's thorn as efficacious as the Claw? If you understand this, you understand the core of the books. You have 30 minutes. Put your pencil down to indicate when you have finished. Start now. There are lots of fun things to look for besides plot events, of course. One is tracing the origins of the stories and legends which the people of Urth tell. Another is catching references to Jorge Luis Borges' works; two places to look are the story of Domnina's encounter with Father Inire, and 'The Tale of the Student and His Son'. (There are others, too...) Another is looking for little clevernesses -- for example, what book in the set of four which Severian fetches for Thecla does he NOT describe? (I wouldn't have noticed this if Wolfe hadn't mentioned it in an article.) If you fancy this sort of thing, it helps to have a copy of THE CASTLE OF THE OTTER and to read 'The Books in THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN' in PLAN[E]T ENGINEERING (which also has a map of the continent on which Nessus is located). Wolfe started working on THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN in 1975 and the last volume wasn't published until 1983. Think of all the effort that went into it -- it shouldn't be surprising that Wolfe wants the reader to do some work too. If all else fails, you can see if the answers are in THE URTH OF THE NEW SUN when it comes out, Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ From: chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Cheshire Chuqui) Subject: various reviews (catching up a bit) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 84 18:00:44 MST It's amazing how much reading you can catch up while criss-crossing this wonderful country of ours-- airplanes and airports seem to have a purpose after all. Anyway, onward to things I should have read months ago: Dying of the Light - George R. R. Martin Pocket Books, $1.95 Rating: *** I've seen mixed reviews of this book, but I found myself entranced and involved in it. It isn't an easy or happy book-- this is a book for an active reader (similar but not as well done as Wolfe's books); definitely not a casual read. The story is set on Worlorn, a rogue planet on it's way out of a star system and into unending darkness. Worlorn was used as a festival planet by a federation of worlds, and now scientists are studying it as it dies. The book studies the scientists, their societies, and how they interact with each other. Very powerful on a gut level, especially the characters and their strengths, faults and foibles. It made me read long after I should have been asleep, and that is the best recommendation I can make. Wings of Omen -- thieves world #6 - robert lynn asprin Ace Fantasy, $2.95 Rating: ** I was looking forward to this book after devouring 1-5, but this one left me flat. Perhaps the new characters just aren't as interesting as the older ones (noticably in the background in this book). Part of it may be that I just have trouble with the Beysibs (an amphibian invasionary force from book #5). Mostly I think it is just that I (and some of the authors) are running out of steam on the project-- I just don't think it will sustain itself much longer. Robots of Dawn - Isaac Asimov Ballantine #3.95 Rating: * *yawn* a 398 page short story, padded to fill. No real challenges, no real suspense, Asimov at his most mechanical. Isaac Asimov writing about sex reminds me of reading Gray's Anatomy-- it's all there, in perfect detail, and I'm terribly bored. The whole book left me terribly flat, the only reason this book seems to exist is to try to link (with understated references to psychohistory) the robots with Foundation. Not really worth it, in retrospect. hmm... only 30 books to go and I'm up to date. Time to go back east again, I guess... *grin* chuq From the Department of Bistromatics: Chuq Von Rospach {cbosgd,decwrl,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 27 Nov 84 12:33:24 EST From: TRUDEL@RU-BLUE.ARPA Subject: Hitchhikers Game Well, I have tried the new Infocom Adventure HHGTTG, and I am really impressed. As some of you know, Infocom is notorious for using straight text, and HHGTTG is unfortunately no exception. What I mean is that the Guide's listings could have been done as graphically as the tv series, but they weren't. This leaves more space on the disk for other things, such as more events, a better parser, and lies. Yes, I said lies. This game lies to you!!! I won't give away any of the particulars, but it suffices to say that it is not fully truthful all of the time, and it doesn't let you do everything you would like to, ie. looking in Ford's satchel yields a message something like 'You can't. It's Ford's and it's private.' This makes for some humorous, frustrating and exciting play, something that I have found lacking in most other adventure games. Well worth it, if you ask me. Just remember, persistence pays in playing this game. Jon "So this is it, we're going to die." "I wish you'd stop saying that..." ps-how about a digest called Net.Ellison.flame? I'm tired of reading the same arguments about how good or bad he is. It's obvious that both sides of the 'debate' will never concede each other's views, so I feel that it's time to drop the subject. If you don't like him, don't read him, and if you do, feel free to continue. It's that simple. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 30-Nov SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #211 Date: 30 Nov 84 1253-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #211 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 30 Nov 84 1253-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #211 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 30 Nov 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 211 Today's Topics: Books - Bradley & Clarke & Herbert & McCaffrey & Wolfe & Zelazny & The Flying Sorceror & Thieves World & Networks, Films - The Terminator (3 msgs) & Godzilla Remake, Television - The Twilight Zone & Star Trek ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 Nov 84 21:23 EST (Tue) From: Mijjil (Matthew J Lecin) Subject: Darkover I don't know if this subject has been covered before, sorry if this has been done here before... I have never read any of the DARKOVER series by Marian Zimmer Bradley. Can someone give me a complete list of titles *AND* a suggested reading order for same? Please reply to me, don't deluge the digest... Thanks, !* Mijjil! ARPA: LECIN@RU-BLUE.ARPA UUCP: best-route-to => allegra!ru-blue!lecin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Nov 1984 11:06:56 EST From: "Wherever I go, there I am" Subject: Clarke's Law Revisited Well, since Clarke's Law has (once again) appeared in this digest, I suppose it's time to remind everyone of its non-fictional equivalent, developed by author John Ford ("The Princes of the Air", "The Dragon Waiting", etc.). FORD'S LAW: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from cheap special effects. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Nov 1984 11:20:41-EST From: Robert.Zimmermann@cmu-ee-faraday Subject: Dune and the Art of Ruining a good book (slight spoiler warning, but if you haven't already read the book, what are you doing on sf-lovers?) The Marvel Comics version of the movie came out last week. I bought it primarily because I like the artist, but I also wanted to see how badly the movie was going to be butchered. Stephen King, eat your heart out! Aside from completely re-timing the book (which is acceptable when you only have 2 hours), the plot is completely changed. You see, the Atreides have developed a voice activated sonic weapon called the 'Weirding Module'. Therefore, the Emperor allows the Harkonnens to destroy House Atreides (and Summer Cottage Atreides). We will all go see the movie, and complain. Just remember, you've been warned. raz "Heck, Beave, you never like anything!" ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 28 Nov 1984 09:53:02-PST From: eppes%grafix.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Nina) Subject: New McCaffrey book out At long last, Anne McCaffrey has written a sequel to "Dinosaur Planet," one of her earliest works (I think). It is called "Survivors of Dinosaur Planet" (or something like that). I bought it, but I haven't read it yet...(I'm working on The Belgariad, now that all the books are out [yay!!]) -- Nina Eppes DEC Spit Brook Rd. Nashua, NH ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Nov 1984 04:28 EST From: Jim Aspnes Subject: The Book of the New Sun I, too, found it difficult to find a true plot to The Book. It's curious, because Wolfe has done more substantial works (_Fevre Dream_ comes to mind), where he has managed to keep his plot tight and his characters human. Perhaps it's the strange setting or the self-indulgent first-person narrative, but The Book of the New Sun reads like literary doodling. It has points of greatness (the story told by the Ascian is a work of art in itself), and they manage to carry the story limpingly along, but the work as a whole seems more of an anthology than a series of novels. My praise will flow freely for anyone who can pick out some semblance of continuity of plot and can justify it well. But at the moment it seems very much that the Autarch's clothes are impossible for any but the truly wise to see. Jim ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Nov 84 09:54 CST From: Brett Slocum Subject: Ancient request for dragons Awhile ago, someone requested titles of books with dragons in them. One that comes to mind is called CHANGELING by Roger Zelazny. Dragons are not the main theme, but the way they are handled and the way magic is handled I found quite interesting. There is also a sequel called MADWAND. There are no dragons in MADWAND. These are very good books, and I recommend them highly. (*** SPOILER NOTICE ***) Changeling begins at the end of a war in which a powerful magician is defeated and killed. Magical ability is hereditary in this family, so the victorious magician takes the defeated magician's infant son to another dimension and exchanges him for a baby there. This is a technological dimension where he supposedly won't get into any trouble, and the other baby won't have any magical ability. Years later, when these two have grown up, the magician comes back to get the young man and take him back, because his counterpart is causing all kinds of trouble with his mechanical montrosities and they need his help. The rest of the book tells the story of this young magician's rediscovery of his family heritage, and his attempts to defeat his changeling counterpart. The second book continues with the same character, but the plot is not really related. They are each complete novels. I don't recall the exact plot but I remember it being a quest for knowledge of sorts. It was also good. The word 'madwand' refers to a person with a lot of magical talent, but no training. This happens to describe the main character quite well. A madwand is thought to be quite dangerous. Brett Slocum "I meant to say that it should be hauled off as garbage!" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Nov 84 20:44:35 est From: cjh@cca-unix (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: "Yngvi is a louse!" I read an explanation of this several years ago; my recollection is that it is a punning racial (in mythological, not modern terms) slur, Yngvi being the progenitor or prototypical member of the species in question (there are a \lot/ of obscure humanoid species in Norse mythology). I very much doubt that anyone will find signs of this line in fandom before it appeared in the magazine version of that section of Harold Shea's misadventures, since it was published something like 50 years ago. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Nov 84 11:36:56 EST From: Nick Simicich Subject: Thieves World 6 - Wings of Omen At my local Caldor's the other day, I spotted a copy of Thieves' World number 6 - Wings of Omen. I haven't read it yet, other than looking it over briefly and noting that it contains stories by Asprin, Abbey and Cherryh, as well as a note from the editors explaining why response to fan mail is running years late. Nick ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 84 13:05 EST From: Henry Nussbacher Subject: Networks and Science Fiction I would like to start a discussion about SF and worldwide computer networks. I have recently read some Valentina stories in Analog: Valentina - May 1984 The Crystal Ball - August 1984 The Light in the Looking Glass - September 1984 The whole concept of a Worldnet does not appear to be that far off. With Arpanet and Csnet each having well over 1,200 nodes each and Bitnet/EARN having just started in late 1981 and having 400 nodes it appears that we are well on our way to a 'Wired World'. I am interested in hearing more on this subject and on other SF stories related to networks (i.e. The Environment Accounts). Henry Nussbacher ------------------------------ From: reiher@ucla-cs.UUCP Subject: "The Terminator" Date: Mon, 5 Nov 84 01:23:53 MST "The Terminator" is better than I thought it would be. The coming attractions made it look like a fairly standard action film emphasizing multiple deaths. Well, that element is certainly present, but there is more to the film than violent killings. Not an awful lot more, but more. The story concerns a killing machine in the form of a human being (played by Arnold Schwarzenegger) sent back in time to eliminate a woman destined to be the mother of a freedom fighter of the future. Human guerrillas in that future have just succeeded in overcoming a genocidal computer and its machine minions. The cyborg is sent back to prevent the leader from ever being born, and the guerrillas dispatch a soldier to stop the terminator. Schwarzenegger has nothing but a name and a city to go on, so he goes to the phone book and starts murdering all the women named Sarah Connors. Meanwhile, the soldier, with a little more information, has started tailing the important Sarah Connors, a rather average young woman who has no suspicion that disaster is about to strike. The police and the press quickly catch on that something unusual is up, but the terminator is extraordinarily persistent. Shotgun blasts and bullets are no more than minor inconveniences to him because, beneath the flesh, he is really a robot made from an incredibly hard metal alloy. James Cameron, the director and co-author of the script, deserves most of the credit for lifting the film above others of its kind. "The Terminator" is well paced, the action sequences are well handled, and Cameron manages to bring enough interesting ideas (both in plot and presentation) to the non-action scenes that we don't fall asleep between bouts of gunplay. Cameron puts the camera in reasonable places, if not the perfect place, he understands how to foreshadow plot developments, and (assuming he had a hand in the editing) he knows how to put sequences together. The action scenes aren't on a par with those of "The Road Warrior", or even close, but they are vastly superior to the garbage one sees in films like "The Exterminator II". The acting is good, if unspectacular. Schwarzenegger's body looks even more impressive than in the Conan films, and he brings a certain inhumanity to the role which is entirely appropriate. He and Cameron even manage to get together for a few mildly comic moments. Linda Hamilton is properly paniced as the terminator's target, and Michael Biehn heroic as the soldier from the future. They work rather well together, which is fortunate, since they are together for most of the film. Paul Winfield is wasted again in the role of a police lieutenant who discovers too late that he is out of his depth. "The Terminator" is true to its genre. Many bullets fly, cars crash and explode, and a lot of people die. For the most part, the violence is not terribly explicit. Cameron does not insist on showing us closeups of bullets impacting on Schwarzenegger's victims, which is a welcome change from the usual style of presentation in exploitation films. On the other hand, "The Terminator" is definitely not for the queasy of stomach, for Cameron deploys some special makeup effects which allow Schwarzenegger (oh, why couldn't the man have a shorter name, or at least one easier to spell?) to perform on-camera surgery on his arm and his eye. The effects, by Stan Winston, are not terribly convincing, but the mere concept of presenting them for our viewing pleasure is pretty gross. "The Terminator" also has a few more science fiction tricks up its sleeve than is customary. There are extended sequences set in the future that make good use of some fairly good model work. The special effects people still have to work on a more convincing dummy for their car crashes, however, as the one they used just doesn't make it. There's also a bit of stop-motion animation which is of varying quality, but effective overall. Cameron and Gale Anne Hurd, his co-writer and producer, give a bit more sf type explanation than one usually gets, which is just fine with me. Adam Greenberg's photography is also better than average for exploitation action films. I particularly liked the way he clearly established the difference between scenes set in the present and those set in the future by lighting, using colder and harsher lights for the futuristic scenes, warmer and more natural lighting for the modern ones. Not a major innovation, but more than what cinematographers for action films usually bother with. In summary, if you think you might like "The Terminator", you almost certainly will. If you are unsure, give it a try. If you really don't think that a picture with this kind of plot appeals to you, skip it. "The Terminator" works well within its boundaries, but it certainly doesn't transcend them. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ From: gnome@olivee.UUCP Subject: Re: "The Terminator" Date: Thu, 15 Nov 84 15:01:39 MST By the way, there is an article about TERMINATOR in, you guessed it SOLDIER OF FORTUNE magazine! I kid you not! Newsstands hate speedreaders... Gary ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Nov 84 14:16 CST From: "David S. Cargo" Subject: TERMINATOR I also saw this movie recently. On the whole I thought it was pretty good, and so must many other people. According to a Newsweek article I read, it was the top grossing movie one week. A later newspaper article indicated that it had slipped to number two, and then to number four, but that is still pretty good. I had noticed the "interior views" of the terminator. I didn't recognize any of the assembly language, but I thought I saw some fragments of COBOL (an identification division). *************************SPOILER********************************** More than a week after I saw the movie I realized that the way the machines could have prevented the human leader from being born was to NOT send the Terminator into the past! Think about it. ------------------------------ Date: Sat 24 Nov 84 13:29:16-EST From: Michael Rubin Subject: Rumor: "Godzilla" remake A Group W radio correspondent in Tokyo reports that a $40 million remake of "Godzilla" will be produced in time for the 30th anniversary of the original film in 1986. The monster will be 264 feet tall; it will be awakened by a volcanic eruption, gain strength by eating plutonium, and destroy Tokyo in the usual fashion. Destroying the creature will involve American and Soviet aircraft carriers and bring the world to the brink of nuclear war. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Nov 1984 09:41-EDT From: David.Anderson@CMU-CS-K.ARPA Subject: Twilight Zone to return I heard on TV the other night that the Twilight Zone is going to return to television next season (on NBC, I believe). One of the first episodes is being written by Stephen King. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Nov 84 11:26:53 PST (Wed) Subject: Re: 3-d chess From: Greg Finnegan The 3-d chess game in Star Trek to the best of my knowledge is just a prop. I have never seen a chess game with that many levels and I cannot think of any possible rules to govern the movements from one level to another. I have played the commercial version of 3-d chess (3 8x8 identical boards stacked upon one another) and have enjoyed the break from the traditional chess games (anyone out there ever play on a "tube-shaped board" - each side is a continued to the other side - kind of fun). - Greg Finnegan finnegan@uci-icsc P.S. Star Trek bumper sticker fads: Out --> Beam me up Scotty In --> He's dead Jim ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 4-Dec SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #212 Date: 4 Dec 84 1214-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #212 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 4 Dec 84 1214-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #212 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 4 Dec 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 212 Today's Topics: Books - Adams & Asimov & Hardy & Heinlein & Hugo Gernsback, Films - The Terminator & Dune & 2010 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: wanttaja@ssc-vax.UUCP (Ronald J Wanttaja) Subject: Re: Douglas Adams - HHGTTG, So Long And Thanks For All The Subject: Fish Date: Tue, 20 Nov 84 09:33:26 MST Regarding the HHGTTG Game: > My LSC connection tells me that Douglas Adams has been working on > a game with Steve Meretsky of InfoCom (the Zork people) -- I > believe, therefore, this game will be a COMPUTER game, not a VIDEO > game. I think Steve's other games include Planetfall Hey, gang, it's already out... I've seen in (although haven't played it) in Commodore 64, Apple II, and MAC (!) formats. It comes with a "Don't Panic" button, some tourist brochures for galactic Hot Spots, and a supply of authentic lint. For those not familiar with Infocom games, these are "text" adventures... not the "move the hero with the joystick" games. I saw an article which says the Infocom HHGTTG parallels the book, but familiarity with the book is not especially helpful. Ron Wanttaja (ssc-vax!wanttaja) ------------------------------ From: mike@ucf-cs.UUCP (Ruthless) Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Robots of Dawn Date: Sun, 25 Nov 84 15:22:14 MST Readers will recall that the legend of Susan Calvin causing a mind reading robot to destroy itself is retold in Robots of Dawn. Susan Calvin existed in the era of U.S. Robots. Thus U.S. Robots and Bailey are part of the same future history. Mike Eisler Dept. of Computer Science University of Central Florida Orlando, FL 32816 uucp: {decvax, duke, princeton}!ucf-cs!mike arpa: mike.ucf-cs@csnet-relay csnet: mike@ucf ------------------------------ From: ecl@ahuta.UUCP (ecl) Subject: THE FILM ENCYCLOPEDIA: SF Date: Tue, 27 Nov 84 18:27:39 MST THE FILM ENCYCLOPEDIA: SCIENCE FICTION by Phil Hardy A book review by Mark R. Leeper Less than a year ago I saw for the first time and reviewed a book called THE PSYCHOTRONIC ENCYCLOPEDIA OF FILM by Michael Weldon. I considered this to be the best reference book on science fiction, fantasy, and horror film I had seen in well over a decade. I stand by that assessment. The heavyweight reference books in the field were Walt Lee's REFERENCE GUIDE TO FANTASTIC FILMS and Donald C. Willis's HORROR AND SCIENCE FICTION FILMS: A CHECKLIST, both published in the early Seventies. These were the best works for finding out about that film that the local independent station was showing at 3 AM, Sunday morning. The early Seventies were a long time ago. There has been no updating of Lee and while Willis did write a follow-up, HORROR AND SCIENCE FICTION FILMS II, it is a bit inconvenient to have to look up films in both books. Two general books on films MOVIES ON TV by Steven Scheuer and especially TV MOVIES by Leonard Maltin good books and are helpful, but neither is complete on genre films and Scheuer consistently underrates genre films. So when PSYCHOTRONIC came out, it was certainly the most complete reference work on genre films to have been published for quite a long time. Now another good book has been published. The book is THE FILM ENCYCLOPEDIA: SCIENCE FICTION by Phil Hardy. He does not cover the entire genre, he covers only films with some science fiction content. Hence, he does not list KING KONG, but does list KING KONG VS. GODZILLA. He lists only films released theatrically in this country, not made-for-tv films. Within those bounds, Hardy is dependable and complete. I consider myself something of an expert on science fiction films and I had a really hard time finding science fiction films that do not have entries. Most unlisted films I have found are really fringey: DR. X, THE APEMAN, THE HAPPINESS CAGE, MAN MADE MONSTER. They tend to be more horror than science fiction. Where Hardy really shines is in his coverage of foreign science fiction films. Minor Italian, Mexican, and Japanese films are included and I have yet to pick one that I have seen that Hardy does not cover. For each film covered there is a review of at least a paragraph in length, followed by credits and cast. The reviews are pretty reliable. Hardy knows the good films from the bad ones, generally, though on a few his opinions seem a bit off base. The listings are by year which means that it can be used as a reference on specific films or one can go through page-by- page to get a good overview of the history of the science fiction film, or, better yet, one can just browse the book. Overall, the book is a really pleasurable one to read and the work put into it justifies the apparently steep $25 price tag. If you do not want to buy it for yourself, have your library buy it for their reference section. (Evelyn C. Leeper for) Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!lznv!mrl ------------------------------ From: ecl@ahuta.UUCP (ecl) Subject: JOB: A COMEDY OF JUSTICE Date: Tue, 27 Nov 84 18:30:03 MST JOB: A COMEDY OF JUSTICE by Robert A. Heinlein A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper Ballantine, 1984, $16.95. This one starts out with more promise than other recent Heinlein novels (NUMBER OF THE BEAST and FRIDAY, in particular), but about halfway through Heinlein once again reverts to his stock characters and the novel loses steam. The premise is intriguing. Alex (that's Alexander Hergensheimer) is on a cruise in an alternate world to ours in which the Moral Majority would seem positively decadent. He walks through a fire in Poynesia (on a bet) and finds himself in an alternate world (to his) which is far more free. There he meets Margrethe, a stewardess on the cruise ship, who has been having an affair with Alex Graham, Alex's alter-ego in her world, and conveniently decides to fall in love with Alex. (If her name sounds like a literary allusion, it's no accident.) If this isn't confusing enough, some gangsters are after Alex Graham for the million dollars he has in his lock box on board, and in the confusion that follows, Alex and Margrethe end up in yet another world. This is just the beginning--they jump from world to world, usually with nothing more than the clothes on their back (sometimes less). Now, I liked all the alternate world stuff, but that's my particular thing. I don't think Heinlein does it particularly well, but then he has an out--but that would spoil some of the plot. He's done this sort of thing before (in NUMBER OF THE BEAST), and it wasn't all that great there either. But the different life-views are interesting, even if all the consequences are perfectly worked out. Alex is a born-again Christian (of course--but would the phrase 'born-again' have arisen in *his* world?); Margrethe believes in Odin. Together they conclude that someone (some deity, actually--Loki? Satan?) has it in for them, and that's why their world keeps changing. Unfortunately, somewhere around world #8 (give or take a couple of worlds), they meet a couple a lot like Robert and Virginia Heinlein (one presumes) who live in an amazing house (luckily we are spared precise descriptions of the plumbing, which up until this novel seem to have been a Heinlein mainstay) and have very liberal and radical ideas. There's a lot of talk about nudity and sex (another Heinlein staple--I wouldn't mind it so much if he did it well) and the usual philosophical speeches before Alex and Margrethe once again jump somewhere else. It's also about here that Alex and Margrethe start talking like stock Heinlein characters. A pity--they were interesting up to this point. Then about three-quarters of the way through, Heinlein does an abrupt left turn and the novel becomes something else entirely. Unfortunately, what it becomes is not nearly as interesting as what it was. (Telling what would ruin the surprise, which is about all it's got going for it.) The novel just sort of trickles out, with a very unsatisfactory conclusion. JOB is better than other recent Heinlein novels (everything since TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE), but it's not up to his earlier work by any means. It will probably be nominated by a Hugo (it seems that any novel by Asimov, Clarke, or Heinlein is), but it's a nostalgia nominee. (Strangely enough, it seems remiscient of Silverberg's UP THE LINE, though I can't pin down why.) Evelyn C. Leeper ==> Note new net address: ...ihnp4!houxq!ahuta!ecl (Mail sent to my old address will be forwarded temporarily.) ------------------------------ From: ecl@ahuta.UUCP (ecl) Subject: Hugo Gernsback Date: Tue, 27 Nov 84 18:28:19 MST Hugo Gernsback An editorial by Evelyn C. Leeper Every year the World Science Fiction Convention members give out the "Hugos," awards named after Hugo Gernsback. But what did Gernsback do to deserve this honor, and the respect that he is given in the science fiction community? He didn't invent science fiction. Whether you want to claim that science fiction was invented by Jonathan Swift (or even earlier) or are one of those who dates (modern) science fiction from Shelley, Verne, and Wells, you have to admit that Gernsback did not invent it. He didn't even write much of it--his one surviving work is RALPH 24C41+--and a pretty bad novel it is. He didn't seek out and promote the best authors--Wells and Stapledon were not regular contributors to AMAZING. What he did do was to give science fiction its own name--and its own ghetto. Far from performing a service for the genre, he acted in such a way that it has taken almost fifty years to even attempt to recover from the damage he did. Before AMAZING STORIES, science fiction was published in mainstream magazines. After AMAZING STORIES, science fiction was published in science fiction magazines. Before AMAZING STORIES, authors could expect a good novel to be reviewed by the press, sell well, and be read be a lot of people. After AMAZING STORIES, authors could expect a good novel to be reviewed by the press, sell well, and be read be a lot of people--*unless* it was science fiction, in which case it wouldn't be reviewed (except in science fiction magazines), sell just about the same number of copies as any other science fiction novel, and be read by just about the same number of people as any other science fiction novel. The phenomenon of "it's not science fiction because it's good" got started here; science fiction books weren't reviewed by major reviewers. At last we seem to be escaping from this trap. What prompted me to write this editorial was the increasing number of "cross-over" books that are being reviewed in both the science fiction markets and the mainstream markets. Authors like Isaac Asimov, Arthur Clarke, and Robert Heinlein you might expect to find on the bestseller lists and reviewed in the NEW YORK TIMES REVIEW OF BOOKS, but Anne McCaffrey and Philip Jose Farmer? The "horror novel" was exempted from Gernsback's scope, and so (until a few years ago) horror novels were kept in the fiction section of the bookstore, not in a special section next to "science fiction" and "juveniles." With the Stephen King phenomenon, and what seems like every author coming out with a horror novel, some (but only some) stores have set up separate sections for horror novels, but even this seems to be going away. Not the science fiction section, though--Waldenbooks is even giving it its own club. The result is that everyone loses. The authors whose books are classified as science fiction sell less (which is why so many "science fiction" authors have renounced the field). The readers who prefer science fiction tend to do all their browsing in that section and miss the good novels filed in the fiction (which may or may not be science fiction anyway). Authors recently reviewed here that you might have missed by not checking the fiction section include Russell Hoban (PILGERMANN), Virginia Woolf (ORLANDO: A BIOGRAPHY), and Doris Lessing (SHIKASTA). Other authors of the fantastic not to be found in the science fiction section include Jorge Luis Borges and Robertson Davies. Given all the trouble that's he's caused, why *do* people venerate Hugo Gernsback? Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!hocsj!ecl ------------------------------ From: hlj@amdahl.UUCP (Hal Jespersen) Subject: Re: "The Terminator" Date: Sun, 25 Nov 84 19:11:56 MST Has anyone noticed the various textual data shown in the Terminator's computer images? One of the sequences was a *COBOL* program! I also thought I saw some VAX assembler. Incidentally, I don't normally like really violent movies, but this was one of the more entertaining ones I've seen this year. Parts were like the A Team with real bullets. Hal Jespersen (408) 746-8288 ...{hplabs,ihnp4,amd}!amdahl!hlj [The opinions expressed are those of the author and not necessarily those of Amdahl Corporation, its management, or employees.] ------------------------------ From: howard@garfield.UUCP (Howard . Campbell) Subject: Dune - Article in Forbes Magazine. Date: Mon, 26 Nov 84 17:07:11 MST Hello, net-people, Dune is coming! Actually, that's old news, but the following isn't. ( I hope! ) DUNE is to be released in 1700 theatres world-wide on Dec. 14. The magazine Forbes ( Nov. 5 issue - bi-weekly from someplace in NYC ) has a multipage article ( with several informative and 2001-word colour shots; written by Tom O'Hanlon name "Billion Dollar Flick" ) on the film as well as a pair of pages on Frank Herbert and his famous book. And, if you are as lazy as I am, here are some multi-byte information chunks: The Director is Dino de Laurentis's 30 year old daughter and DdL is producing the picture. The whole thing costs about US$ 40m, with a similar amount being thrown in for promotion, distribution and advertising. It will be more than two hours long, it required 70 sets and 35 dialogue segments. Ten (yes, 10!) subsequent pictures will be released in the following 18 months. ( I expect there may be a misprint here, but exactly what the movies are to be about is not stated, I suppose one is expected to infer that they'll all be Dune sequels, or related somehow. Perhaps some crap for TV? ) Currently, 5 soundstages have been built in Wilmington, North Carolina, with 7 more to come. ( So many!! So much Money!! ) Remember, if you want more, see the above mentioned magazine. It's an interesting article. You'll likely find it in any public library, I expect. ( I stumbled on it in our university library. ) Howard Campbell {akgua, allegra, dalcs!dreacad, ihnp4, utcsrgv}!garfield!howard Memorial University of Newfoundland ------------------------------ From: knudsen@ihnss.UUCP Subject: "2010" is Coming! Date: Tue, 27 Nov 84 16:30:14 MST Since nobody else has mentioned this, I saw a TV ad a couple nites ago for the movie 2010, sequel to 2001. The few short action scenes they showed didn't permit me to make much in the way of quality judgments, but it seemed OK. Having read, and really enjoyed, the book, no way will I see this flick less than twice. It's supposed to come here (Chicago land) Dec 7 (too bad half the astronauts are Russian, not Japanese :-)). That's one week ahead of "Dune." Looks like a real sci-fi Xmas, no? mike k ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 4-Dec SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #213 Date: 4 Dec 84 1252-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #213 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 4 Dec 84 1252-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #213 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 4 Dec 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 213 Today's Topics: Books - Adams (2 msgs) & Asimov & Delany & Ellison (2 msgs) & Kurtz & Padgett & Vonnegut & Wolfe, Films - 2010 & Starman ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 Nov 1984 0121-GMT From: Alan Greig Subject: So Long and Thanks For All the Fish Having held out until this monday before buying the book in order to have it signed by Douglas Adams at my local bookstore, it seems to me to be well worth the extra cost of the hardback edition. The only thing I can think of which might be causing it to have such mediocre reviews on the wrong side of the Atlantic is that 90% of the book takes place on Earth, the U.K.(to be precise) Much of the humour whilst not being totally lost upon an American readership might loose a lot of its edge. Still, I would think that the tying together of lots off loose ends would more than make up for that and my advice has to be to buy it now. Besides a hardback always looks better on a shelf than a paperback !! ------------------------------ From: eric@milo.UUCP (Eric Bergan) Subject: Re: Douglas Adams - HHGTTG, So Long And Thanks For All The Subject: Fish Date: Thu, 29 Nov 84 09:57:55 MST I have started working over HHGTTG from Infocom. It is immediately apparent that Douglas Adams played an integral role in creating the game. The manual reads much like the books (make sure and read the sample dialogue and other sections you normally skip over). So far the plot of the adventure has followed the plot of the book, but the puzzles I have encountered so far have not been helped by knowing the book. eric ...!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!milo!eric ------------------------------ Date: 29 Nov 84 15:48:13 EST (Thursday) Subject: Robots From: Chris Heiny Cc: MDC.Janice%Mit-oz@MIT-MC.ARPA I recall several references in the Baley/Daneel series to Susan Calvin, US Robots, and so on. I think the "Little Miss" reference in 'the Robots of Dawn' points to a previous US Robots story. The lying telepathic robot of legend is definitely a pointer to the US Robots/Calvin era, a story called "Liar!". The first Baley/Daneel stories are published together with all the other robot stories in one volume (which I think is called 'the Robot Collection'). In his notes in this volume, Asimov makes no distinction between the Baley/Daneel universe and the US Robots/Calvin universe. I think it's pretty safe to assume they are the same universes. Chris ------------------------------ Date: Wed 28 Nov 84 20:45:28-PST From: Laurence R Brothers Subject: New Delany novel Stars in My Pockets Like Grains of Sand. The following is not a review, a real one would require many pages. Well, Delany has finally written another good novel--I couldn't stand that Neveryona arglebargle. It is (outside of Dhalgren) perhaps his weirdest social setting, a galactic culture where the only pronoun in common usage is "she", for both males and females. This culture is the semantic battleground of two groups, the "sygn", whose position is hard to describe briefly but are kind of high-tech Taoists, and the "family" who are tradition-loving believers in tight family groups. The two forces encompass much of the galaxy and attempt to convert planetary populations to their view, having roughly equal success. The other major social force is the "web", a kind of galactic NSA who control the flow of information between planets. The main-character is another of Delany's weirdos, an Industrial Diplomat born on a world shared by humans and aliens and raised in a living arrangement which encouraged him to regard members of both races as relatives. In addition (a major plot element), the character is a homosexual with a thing for nail-biting giants. In short, he would seem to be the least likely person anyone would ever identify with, given both the culture and some strange personal characteristics, but it is a tribute to Delany's writing that identification does indeed take place. Delany has done an awful lot of work defining his cultures, and though one gets the idea that he has set up his society to prove or demonstrate some kind of point, it is not the patronizing attitude he took in the Neveryona books ("look at this society I have constructed for your edification; please take careful notes...."). To say much more about the book would be something of a spoiler, so I won't. I would, however, like to read a real review, if anyone ever writes one. Oh, the book is supposed to be the first of two, a "diptych", in Delany's words. As is kind of usual for Delany, I bet this book will be a Nebula nominee or winner but will lose big in Hugo voting. Oh, and lest you decide not to read the novel based on bad past experience (ie Dhalgren), let me assure you that I really disliked Dhalgren too (well, actually I never did finish the damned thing....) -Laurence ------------------------------ Date: 29 Nov 84 11:01:10 PST (Thursday) From: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: Harlan Ellison & Manners To: ddern@BBNCCH.ARPA Daniel, Your message started off in a very positive way (translation: I agree with you) >>In reading SF-LOVERS for the past year and a half, I have noticed >>a tendency for the focus of debate on topics to often digress from >>talking either about a work one has read/seen/heard, or how you >>reacted to it, felt about it, feel during/after it, what it >>reminded you...eventually drifting down to picking apart the >>creator and/or the "science". But, unlike you, I am willing to put up with the dross in order to savor the occasional gem. In any case, I like the fact that there exists a forum for exploring ANY topic related to science fiction and fantasy; namely, SF-LOVERS. I think it's simple human nature for a discussion to branch and flow away from the initial topic. Perhaps it is your expectations of SF-LOVERS that needs review, rather than our tendency to fly off on a tangent. While we're on the subject of manners, Daniel, PLEASE do me a favor and keep your holier-than-thou attitude to yourself! What arrogance! Also, I find your name-dropping and "I'm a SFWA Clarion graduate, -- nyaa, nyaa, nyaa," tiresome, pompous, and ridiculous! After all, I am an Ordained Minister of the Holy Church of the SubGenius, and "Bob" is a personal friend (besides being my personal saviour), SO DON'T TALK DOWN TO ME!!-) >>some of the people you are flinging mud at may either be reading >>this directly, or be shown it by friends. So what if Harlan, or any other author, is on this list? It's not like they are FORCED to listen to the amateur criticism of a bunch of sf-lovers. I can't imagine ANY author of adult maturity being upset or dispondent because Jeff Duntemann or Joe Kalash didn't like this or that about his book, his personality, or his looks! Besides, what sort of friend would show Harlan Ellison a message that said, "Harlan is a jerk!" Give to me a break! To get more topical [back to the surface of the matter]: When Harlan isn't wallowing is self-pity, he can be very provocative. But a "genius?" I don't know about that. Then again, I think Jack Vance is a genius, so what do I know? These are the cogent and curteous remarks of, Perry A. Caro ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 84 14:16:49 EST From: Daniel Dern Subject: Abashed reply to reply To: caro.PA@xerox.arpa Perry -- Whoops! Apologies! I didn't mean to be holier-than-whomever or name-dropping, or talk down to you. Apologies all around to any others who agree with Perry that I got out of line... I went back to an article seven years old, when Harlan spoke at MIT. Nothing much has changed; whether or not he's still asking for/provoking all this ruckus, he's still getting it. But it's funny, isn't it, how we'll work so hard at trashing people who work very hard for us, while we're bombarded with sludge so bad it isn't even worth mentioning. (No specific references, intentionally.) I'm not sure I can agree with "...I can't imagine ANY author of adult maturity being upset... because [someone] didn't like this or that about his book..." And I'd bet an electronic nickle that somebody out there shows a copy of some or all of this to Harlan, either a friend, or otherwise. I like a lot of Jack Vance, too. Have you read any of his mainstream/detective novels (sorry, don't recall the pseudonym)? Next victim, please... new plates! No room! No room! From the a-wee-bit-triggerhappy terminal of Daniel P. Dern ------------------------------ From: mjn@teddy.UUCP (Mark J. Norton) Subject: New Deryni Novel by Katherine Kurtz Date: Wed, 28 Nov 84 08:56:21 MST A recent bookstore excursion yielded a new novel by Katherine Kurtz set in her Deryni Universe. You will no doubt remember the first trilogy (Deryni, Deryni Rising, and Deryni Checkmate) and the second (Camber of Culdi, et al). This trilogy is called "The Histories of King Kelson" and picks up where the first trilogy left off. We re-join our heroes: Kelson, Duncan and Morgan in a new set of adventures. The first book of this new trilogy is called "The Bishop's Heir" and is currently available only in Del Rey hardcover ($14.95). The also published page reveals the next two titles: "The King's Justice" and "The Quest for Saint Camber". Since I'm only a few chapters into the book, I really can't give a recommendation of this novel (or give anything away, either). On the other hand, I've read the six previous Deryni novels and liked them all. Anything new in this series falls into a BUY-IMMEDIATELY category for me. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Nov 84 7:49:19-EST (Fri) From: Stabron%xls-plexus01.darcom@darcom-hq.arpa To: utcsrgv!mcgill-vision!mcgill-vision!mouse%uw-beaver.arpa@darcom-hq To: .arpa Subject: MIMSY WERE THE BOROGOVES Dear Der Mouse, I read "mimsy Were the Borogoves" in Isaac Asimov Presents The Great SF Stories 5 (1943) which was edited by Himself and Martin H. Greenberg. Published 1981 by Daw Books, Inc. Want an address? According to its intro in the book, it was printed in *Astounding* in Feb. of the year in discussion (1943) and Asimov calls it a *classic*. It fascinated me (obviously; I only read it once but it stuck in my mind) and it's frightfully good reading (but literally NOT recommended for people who already have paranoid tendencies.) Some of the ideas presented were pretty novel in 1943, I expect, and they're still pretty thought-provoking. Whoever it was that said he wanted ideas in his science fiction, read this **immediately** if you haven't already. Judith Tabron agnostic, n. Person who is absolutely certain that nothing is absolutely certain. P.S. Did you know that "Lewis Padgett" is a pseudonym for Henry Kuttner and C.L. Moore as a writing team? jlt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 84 12:11 CST From: Brett Slocum Subject: Vonnegut (Re: Re: Ellison) I'm no expert on Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. after having read one book (Cat's Cradle), but I found it to be very humorous and entertaining. I would recommend it strongly. It most certainly wasn't 'unrepentently(sp) depressing'. Yes, it dealt with the end of the world, but there are a lot of stories that have done that, and those authors aren't labelled 'depressing'. Now, 'Slaughterhouse-Five' is about the fire-bombing of Dresden in WW II which isn't very cheery, but you must realize that Vonnegut was there at the time. Oh, well. That's all. Just wanted to defend one of my favorite authors (so far). Brett Slocum ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 84 17:53 EST From: Purtill@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Gene Wolfe books about books Does anyone know of any easy (or possible) ways of \getting/ Gene Wolfe's THE CASTLE OF THE OTTER and/or PLAN[E]T ENGINEERING? As I understand it, both were put out by small presses in small quantities. I heard that the Science Fiction Book Club put out THE CASTLE OF THE OTTER. Is this true? Is it still available? (I.e., if I joined now, could I get it?) Thanks in advance, Mark Purtill Purtill@MIT_MULTICS ------------------------------ From: knudsen@ihnss.UUCP Subject: More on "2010" movie Date: Tue, 27 Nov 84 16:37:53 MST Let me expand on my previous posting re 2010 flick (it's too late for you to stop me anyway...) Previous discussions here, several moons ago, implied that the director of this flick had the wrong attitudes for serious SF film work. I didn't see any evidence of that in the few TV commercial scenes, but then they were so short that it's hard to tell. At least it didn't seem hoked up like "Dark Star", and they trimmed the plastic flashing and excess glue off their models. The moons of Jupiter play a big part in this story. Months ago I mentioned that the film had better do an awesome job in the SFX dept to match the moon actions in the novel AND our close-up Voyager photos of the actual moons. Next to NASA's pix, 2001's Jupiter stuff looks pretty dull. Come to think of it, NASA does pretty good zero-G special effects too-- have they got something Hollywood doesn"t? :-) "That's cheating--using REAL spaceships!" mike k ------------------------------ Date: Sun 2 Dec 84 15:43:53-PST From: Steve Dennett Subject: STARMAN Review "Starman" previewed in Palo Alto last night, and I attended with high expectations. MINI-REVIEW: "Arf-arf." REVIEW: This movie has been compared by some previewers to "The Day the Earth Stood Still". Well... that's an insult to TDTESS, and rather like comparing an episode of "Lost in Space" with "Forbidden Planet". The only similarity between the two is the premise, "alien emissary lands on earth and meets hostility". The implausiblities start with the alien's ship being intercepted by U.S. jets and shot down. Would our military shoot down an object from space without even attempting to communicate with it or identify it, especially when the object's trajectory will land it in the Arizona desert? Our military may be paranoid and aggressive, but it's hard to imagine them being as stupid as they are portrayed in this film. ************ MILD SPOILER WARNING ************ Jeff Bridges as the alien (his name is never given) TRIES to bring life to the character; but he hardly talks, other than to say "What is 'tree'?", "What is 'automobile'?". Karen Allen, as the woman he kidnaps, creates a relatively rounded character. But the remaining people in "Starman" are two dimensional, easily summed up as "The Emotionless Government Boss", "The Compassionate Scientist", "The Pugnacious Redneck", etc. As for suspense, how much can there be with a character who can walk through fire and raise the dead? Whom all the "little people" go out of their way to help? The dialogue, especially the alien's (when he says more than three words), tended to be cliches from old SF movies, ie., along the lines of "On my world we are one race, living by one law, as brothers." "There are many intelligent races, but YOUR race is unique." "Earth is primitive, savage, but beautiful." (These are paraphrased.) Summing it up, "Starman" comes across as a bad 1950's B-grade SF movie. If you MUST see it, don't pay full price. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 4-Dec SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #214 Date: 4 Dec 84 1315-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #214 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 4 Dec 84 1315-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #214 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 5 Dec 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 214 Today's Topics: Books - Adams & Ballard & Dragons & Hugo Gernsback, Television - The Twilight Zone, Miscellaneous - 3D Chess (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jab@uokvax.UUCP Subject: So Long, and Thanks for the Memories Date: Sun, 2 Dec 84 22:01:00 MST "So Long and Thanks for All the Fish" is okay, but not great. Possibly the best line is "... For those of you not interested, you should turn to the last chapter, which includes Marvin, the paranoid android." A book to read, but definitely not a book to buy. Stand in the BDalton's and read it. Jeff Bowles Lisle, IL ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Dec 84 17:19:44 mst From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley) Subject: EMPIRE OF THE SUN by J G Ballard A lot of sf readers profess not to enjoy the work of J G Ballard. His stories are often cold and pessimistic, built around metaphors instead of plot or character development; his anti-heroes behave irrationally at best; his universes are usually brutal and indifferent to human struggles. I sometimes think these things, and it's true that I haven't bought very much that Ballard has done recently, but I find that many images from Ballard stories stick with me and that upon rereading they seem to mean different things. Novels like THE CRYSTAL WORLD, THE DROUGHT, stories like 'The Terminal Beach', 'Chronopolis','The Voices of Time' or (my favorite) 'Build-up', have dream-like settings which appeal strongly to me when I'm in the right mood. Why is Ballard's fictional space so strange? It's not because he indulges in fashionable technophobia and world-weariness; in Charles Platt's interview with Ballard in DREAM MAKERS we hear: 'I'm completely out of sympathy with the whole antitechnology movement... [A]ll these doom-sayers and echo-watchers -- their prescriptions for disaster always strike me as simply wrong, factually, and also appallingly defeatist, expressing some sort of latent sense of failure. I feel very OPTIMISTIC about science and technology. And yet almost my entire fiction has been an illustration of the opposite. I show all these entropic universes with everything running down. I think it has a lot to do with my childhood in Shanghai during the war.' EMPIRE OF THE SUN (Simon and Schuster, 1984; 279 pp.) is a novel which deals with Ballard's wartime experiences in excruciating detail. It is unlike anything of Ballard's that I have ever read before; in fact it (deceptively) reads like a straightforward mainstream novel, but it really is an exhaustive catalog of all the images and characters which Ballard has used in his work. The drained swimming pools, the wrecks of aircraft, the inhuman protagonists, the Kafkaesque agents of authority: they're all here, and it's exceedingly disturbing that they can't be dismissed as figments of nightmares as they sometimes can in Ballard's stories. They are all real, terrifyingly real, all evidences of a basic disturbance in the universe which has caused the rind of culture and civilization that we take for granted to be peeled away. Young Jim is eleven years old in December, 1941, when the novel opens; he lives a comfortable existence as the son of a well-to-do English mill owner in Shanghai. Across the Yangtze the Japanese gather for their final assault, but life among the expatriates proceeds as usual. On the morning of December 8 (December 7 across the date line in Hawaii), the ships in the Shanghai roads are bombed by the Japanese, and in the ensuing panic Jim is separated from his parents. He manages to find his way back to his house in the British quarter, but his parents never return... Jim's world begins to bend, then crack under the weight of events; his childish outlook is never shaken, however, and it adapts in a remarkable way to account for a life of eating weevils for protein, volunteering for kitchen duty in order to steal sweet potatoes, watching Chinese beaten to death for sport by guards, stripping bodies of salable possessions. In short he becomes a classic Ballard character: someone whose soul has died but whose body lives on. This is not a novel for people who maintain that war brings out heroism in the common man. In EMPIRE, war is simply an efficient way of converting common men and women into bloated, fly-spotted corpses. EMPIRE OF THE SUN is not a book for the squeamish, but it is an effective book: it achieves its narrative purpose, it shocks you from your complacent existence, showing you just how little experience you may have of the way the world operates outside your comfortable pocket in it. It is not technically a science fiction novel, but its world is as alien to ours as any distant planet, and it is an encyclopedia of images from Ballard's sf. Despite my lingering revulsion, I'm glad I bought the book. Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ Date: Sat 1 Dec 84 13:48:15-EST From: Nancy Lynn Connor Subject: Dragons I was reading a story about dragons lately called "Jhereg" by Steven Brust, and I couldn't help making a comparison to Anne McCaffery's Pern stories, and a story I read earlier called "The Dragon Lord" by David Drake. It was interesting to note that Brust uses his dragon as a tool for crime (having him eat people, having him get information, etc.) and Drake uses his as a weapon and threat, where McCaffery uses her dragons as a tool to help people. I wonder if this carries over to other animals and tools as well. For instance, Vonda McIntyre wrote "Dreamsnake" about snakes used as medical assistants, and Zenna Henderson writes about telepathic powers and how they are used to help people. Does anybody have another observations along this line? ------------------------------ From: barry@ames.UUCP (Kenn Barry) Subject: Re: Hugo Gernsback Date: Fri, 30 Nov 84 16:40:55 MST > Every year the World Science Fiction Convention members give > out the "Hugos," awards named after Hugo Gernsback. But what did > Gernsback do to deserve this honor, and the respect that he is > given in the science fiction community? > He didn't invent science fiction. Whether you want to claim > that science fiction was invented by Jonathan Swift (or even > earlier) or are one of those who dates (modern) science fiction > from Shelley, Verne, and Wells, you have to admit that Gernsback > did not invent it. He didn't even write much of it--his one > surviving work is RALPH 24C41+--and a pretty bad novel it is. He > didn't seek out and promote the best authors--Wells and Stapledon > were not regular contributors to AMAZING. What he did do was to > give science fiction its own name--and its own ghetto. Far from > performing a service for the genre, he acted in such a way that it > has taken almost fifty years to even attempt to recover from the > damage he did. No, he didn't invent SF, but he did invent the name, and he created SF in the sense of its becoming a separate and distinct genre of fiction. Before Gernsback, no such distinction was made. We agree he was a terrible writer, but no one argues that his writing is the reason for his fame in the SF field. As to Wells and Stapledon: Wells was reprinted in almost every issue of Amazing in its early days. Gernsback would probably have been very happy to have had original contributions from either of these writers, but it's hardly his fault if they didn't send him anything. Wells was getting paid much more than Gernsback could have afforded for original material, and Stapledon may not have ever *heard* of AMAZING; like Wells, he was a British author, and more a philosopher than a SF writer. And his 1st "SF" book (LAST AND FIRST MEN) wasn't published (even in Britain) until 1930, by which time Gernsback no longer owned AMAZING. He ran another rag, yes, but that was the magazine whose author compensation was described as "payable upon lawsuit"; I doubt he could have afforded Stapledon, either. > Before AMAZING STORIES, science fiction was published in > mainstream magazines. After AMAZING STORIES, science fiction was > published in science fiction magazines. Before AMAZING STORIES, > authors could expect a good novel to be reviewed by the press, > sell well, and be read be a lot of people. After AMAZING STORIES, > authors could expect a good novel to be reviewed by the press, > sell well, and be read be a lot of people--*unless* it was science > fiction, in which case it wouldn't be reviewed (except in science > fiction magazines), sell just about the same number of copies as > any other science fiction novel, and be read by just about the > same number of people as any other science fiction novel. The > phenomenon of "it's not science fiction because it's good" got > started here; science fiction books weren't reviewed by major > reviewers. I disagree about the respect that fantastic literature was supposedly accorded before Gernsback. This could be the subject of a long essay all by itself but, briefly, fantasy seems to have fallen into disfavor during the Enlightenment, and only started to re-emerge (as the more rational SF) in the 19th century with a *few* authors. The bulk of fantastic literature in the late 19th and early 20th century was published in pulp magazines or dime novels, and was not "respectable". Only now is fantasy/ SF regaining its recognition as a very large, important and respectable branch of literature. You're mostly right in what you say about the negative effects of the ghettoization of SF on good writers. Many good SF books have not been taken seriously because of the "SF" label. But aren't there good effects from this ghettoization, as well? For one thing, SF needed to develop some common foundations before SF books could go beyond the basics. I don't think that a LEFT HAND OF DARKNESS, to cite just one example, would have been possible until many other books had beaten the subject of star travel and alien worlds to death. Early SF gave us a vocabulary of familiar concepts (aliens, FTL, robots, time travel, etc.) that could be made the foundation of better books that simply used such "plumbing" to create a situation where the results of such things could be extrapolated into humanly-interesting questions. The insularity of SF helped this process along by making it easier for all the SF fans and writers to see what everyone else was doing in the field, and so to borrow useful concepts and ideas from one another. Another point in favor of ghettoization: SF fans are, by and large, more fanatically dedicated to their literature than can be reasonably explained. The only other special-interest audiences I know of who can be as fanatic are (some) jazz and opera fans. For the trufan, special SF sections in bookstores are a plus, not a minus. It filters out the uninteresting, and makes the interesting easier to find. Sure, you can flame the hardcore fan for his/her narrowness, but it's their business. More on this below. > The result is that everyone loses. The authors whose books > are classified as science fiction sell less (which is why so many > "science fiction" authors have renounced the field). The readers > who prefer science fiction tend to do all their browsing in that > section and miss the good novels filed in the fiction (which may > or may not be science fiction anyway). Authors recently reviewed > here that you might have missed by not checking the fiction > section include Russell Hoban (PILGERMANN), Virginia Woolf > (ORLANDO: A BIOGRAPHY), and Doris Lessing (SHIKASTA). Other > authors of the fantastic not to be found in the science fiction > section include Jorge Luis Borges and Robertson Davies. While it probably *used* to be true that the SF label cut down sales of good books (and, BTW, *helped* the sales of bad books), it doesn't seem to be true any more. How can you otherwise explain the bestseller treatment of some SF authors nowadays (Heinlein, Clarke, et al)? Or the fact that used-book stores pay *more* for SF than any other kind of fiction? As to fans missing other good books because they only browse the SF sections: you're putting the cart before the horse. If a SF fan is so into SF that they're uninterested in other literature, lumping the books together in the stores won't change them, it'll just make it harder for them to find the stuff they like. Besides, since there seem to be dozens (hundreds?) of new books published every day, all of us are forced to use some kind of filter in deciding what books we'll even consider reading. Being guided by the "SF" label is no better or worse than any other filter; you end up reading some bad books, and missing some good ones, but there's no avoiding that with so many books in print. And what makes you think authors like Lessing and Borges are unknown to SF zombies? I discovered Borges thru reprints in F&SF; Lessing, from reviews in the same magazine. And Woolf is almost a household name. I think I first heard of her from the movie with her name in the title. The others you mention are less familiar to me, but I suspect that's because I haven't been keeping up to date on *any* fiction, SF included, in the past few years (%$&!* computers taking up all my free time!! :-)). > Given all the trouble that's he's caused, why *do* people > venerate Hugo Gernsback? Because, as you yourself point out, he was mainly responsible for ghettoizing SF. Whether or not that was a good idea, it makes old Hugo important in the history of SF. One thing I suspect we'd both agree on, is that modern American SF would have been very different if SF hadn't gotten cut off from the mainstream of literature. Maybe better, maybe worse, but, either way, Gernsback was instrumental in making it what it *is*. - From the Crow's Nest - Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA USENET: {dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames!barry SOURCE: ST7891 ------------------------------ Date: Sun 2 Dec 84 00:01:49-EST From: Janice Eisen Subject: Yes, Twilight Zone to return According to the latest issue of LOCUS, Twilight Zone will indeed be returning to a boob tube near you. A piece of good news is that they've hired Harlan Ellison (no flames please) as creative director; his job is basically going to be to make sure they don't do any old, tired ideas. Janice ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 84 02:37:45 EST From: Bob Webber Subject: 3-d chess (Star Trek and elswhere) many versions of 3-d chess exist. the interested reader is referred to: A Guide to Fairy Chess Anthony Dickins, Dover Publications, 1971. however, it is much more important that we start analyzing 4-d chess (also presented in same reference). the significance of this is illustrated in the story: "A board in the other direction" by Ruth Berman, F&SF 1972, reprinted in: Pawn To Infinity by Fred and Joan Saberhagen, Ace Science Fiction, 1982. Bob (webber@rutgers) ------------------------------ Date: Mon 3 Dec 84 12:22:13-EST From: Rob Austein Subject: 3D chess There's a Trek cult book called "The Star Fleet Technical Manual" (published by Ballentine, but only dedicated types would buy it). I think there is a diagram of the 3D chess board in there, but no instructions on how to play (although from somewhere I recall something about two of each piece (ie, two queens, etc)). Probably was just a prop, like everybody's been saying. --Rob ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 6-Dec SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #215 Date: 6 Dec 84 1300-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #215 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Dec 84 1300-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #215 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 6 Dec 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 215 Today's Topics: Books - Bradley & Wolfe (3 msgs) & Zelazny & Manners & Networks, Films - Supergirl & The Terminator ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 28 Nov 84 14:53:57-EST (Wed) From: Stabron%xls-plexus01.darcom@darcom-hq.arpa Cc: lecin%ru-blue.arpa@darcom-hq.arpa Subject: MIJJIL on DARKOVER Thanks, Mijjil, for asking this question. I've read (and re-read) *lots* of DARKOVER novels, and I would love to see such a list. If anyone does have such a list, I would like a copy too, please!!! I never have been able to figure out how they go... Susan Tabron stabron@darcom-hq.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 3 Dec 1984 10:17-PST Subject: Re: The Book of the New Sun From: FEBER@USC-ISIB.ARPA Jim Aspnes recently added a new book to the Wolfe canon, Fevre Dream, which, considering it is by George R R Martin, is fairly suprising. Since arguing ad hominem is generally frowned upon, I will restrict this flame to the following: There seems to be a widely held belief that a narrative can take only one (or maybe two or three, for the more liberal minded) forms, and that everything else is either "literary doodling" or "too long" or "full of big words" etc. etc. I would suggest that before you start attacking a book on literary grounds, you understand something about the subject - Northrup Frye's Anatomy of Criticism is a good place to start. Wolfe's The Book of the New Sun (which is really one book, as its name implies) has an episodic narrative which places it squarely in the oldest literary tradition there is (except for maybe the grunt). What makes it a fascinating work, outside of the clarity of its prose, is the interweaving of themes and motifs. But if you don't get it by reading it, no amount of explication will help. (mark) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Dec 84 05:33:08 mst From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley) Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe books about books Cc: Purtill@mit-multics.ARPA I don't have a line on purchasable copies of THE CASTLE OF THE OTTER or PLAN[E]T ENGINEERING, but a good place to start is with Mark Ziesing, publisher of OTTER and from whom I bought both books: Mark V Ziesing PO Box 806 (orders) or 762 Main St. (store) Willimantic CT 06226 (203) 423-5836, Tuesday through Saturday Ziesing is a wonderful source of Wolfe books; apart from OTTER and PLAN[E]T, I've bought THE WOLFE ARCHIPELAGO, FREE LIVE FREE (both published by Mark), THE CITADEL OF THE AUTARCH, and just recently an autographed hardbound edition of THE FIFTH HEAD OF CERBERUS (a great book that has been afflicted with revolting cover art in its paperback editions). Even if Mark can't get you copies of these books, you might be able to find out from him where else they might be available now or in the future. Here's some publication info on OTTER and PLAN[E]T: THE CASTLE OF THE OTTER: A BOOK ABOUT The Book of the New Sun. Gene Wolfe. Ziesing Bros.: Willimantic CT, 1982. ISBN 0-917488-10-5, 0-917488-11-3 (signed ed.). 117 pp. Limited edition of 520 copies. Contains essays on the structure and symbolism of the novel, poetry, onomastics ('the study of names') and warfare; plus a glossary for SHADOW, an essay on writing, a collection of jokes told by characters from the novel, a history of the publishing of the novel and a Wolfe bibliography through 10/81, by Gordon Benson. PLAN[E]T ENGINEERING. Gene Wolfe. NESFA Press: Box G MIT Branch P.O., Cambridge MA 02139-0910, 1984. ISBN 0-915368-25-0, 0-915368-83-8 (slipcased ed.). 155 pp. Limited edition of 1000 copies. Contains: Introduction by David Hartwell; 'Logology' (a foreword); 'The Books in THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN' (an essay); 'In Looking-Glass Castle', 'The Rubber Bend', 'The Marvelous Brass Chessplaying Automaton', 'When I was Ming the Merciless', 'The HORARS of War', 'A Criminal Proceeding' (a personal favorite), 'The Detective of Dreams' (all stories); 'British Soldier near Rapier Antiaircraft Missile Battery Scans for the Enemy', 'Last Night in the Garden of Forking Tongues' (about guess who?), 'The Computer Iterates the Greater Trumps' (all poetry); and 'The Anatomy of a Robot', an article from PLANT ENGINEERING MAGAZINE. I originally heard about Mark Ziesing and OTTER through sf-lovers, Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Dec 84 10:10:19 EST From: Morris M. Keesan Subject: Source for PLAN[E]T ENGINEERING To: Purtill@mit-multics.arpa Plan[e]t Engineering was published by the NESFA Press. As such, it should be available from NESFA P.O. Box G MIT Branch Post Office Cambridge, MA 02139 Write to them for further information. ------------------------------ Date: Mon 3 Dec 84 12:16:29-EST From: Rob Austein Subject: Madwands There was one (rather large) dragon in Madwand. I didn't like Changeling that much, but thought Madwand had a lot of promise. Haven't seen anything on it for a while, pity. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Nov 84 15:15:41-EST (Wed) From: Stabron%xls-plexus01.darcom@darcom-hq.arpa To: ddern%bbncch.arpa@darcom-hq.arpa Subject: Manners, et al Good for you, Mr. Dern. I to would like to see more discussion on more subjects with more manners. A little heated discussion never hurt anything, but must it go on for weeks? Or be so gratuitiously nasty? These have probably been on before (I've only been on here since summer), but I particularly like Darkover, McCaffrey (is there a new Crystalsinger in the works?), Heinlein (JOB isn't my favorite either, Moon Is a Harsh Mistress & Stranger are) - and most especially E. E. Smith. I ordered a special British edition of never-before-published-in-book-form short works of Doc's, but haven't gotten it yet - boy are my fingers crossed. I have a collection of first editions of his that I am really proud of. I also really like Auel's Clan books - so Ayla is a little improbable - *somebody* discovered all those things first... I'm looking forward to reading Emergence, but haven't found it yet. I have read recently Valentina and Native Tongue, both of which I loved and for which I thank the Digest. I also read The Vulcan Academy Murders, which has appeal to both Trekkies and computer SF lovers -- lots of stuff about life on and by Vulcans, and a murder mystery to boot. Anyway, there are lots of things, old and new, to talk about without all the flaming.. Susan Tabron ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 84 12:56:13 PST (Saturday) From: Susser.PASA@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: Networks and Science Fiction Stories about a Worldnet? Try "Dial F for Frankenstein" by Arthur Clarke. I won't spoil your reading by saying more than it's a really hoopy story. Also, I seem to remember a story about the original virus program that involved a large net, but I can't remember the title/author. --Josh "Don't just eat a hamburger - eat the HELL out of it." ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 4 Dec 1984 11:20:35-PST From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (From the terminal of Brendan E. From: Boelke) >From: Henry Nussbacher >Subject: Networks and Science Fiction > >I would like to start a discussion about SF and worldwide computer >networks. ... There was an extensive discussion of this topic in not too distant past in the Human Net Digest (HUMNET). Interested parties may want to send mail to "HUMAN-NETS@RUTGERS.ARPA". This is the submission address as I do not have the moderators address. /BEB ------------------------------ From: reiher@ucla-cs.UUCP Subject: "Supergirl" Date: Thu, 22 Nov 84 22:42:54 MST The Salkinds seem intent on becoming the most seasonal of movie producers. They're bring us "Santa Claus" for the Christmas of 85, and they're offering us a turkey for this Thanksgiving. (It's an old joke, but I couldn't resist.) "Supergirl" isn't a very good movie. I think the Salkinds realized this, because they haven't spent much money on building it up. Maybe it will make its money back, but probably "Supergirl" signals the end of the Superman movies. If this film and "Superman III" are the best ideas anyone can come up with, it's just as well. Supergirl (Helen Slater) lives in a city saved from the des- truction of Krypton. The filmmakers don't bother explaining how this happened, and it's been a long time since I read comics, so you'll have to go to net.comics to find out. (If you must, please do. I have absolutely no interest in finding out, myself.) At any rate, the city is kept going by a couple of power sources known as octahedrons. Due to carelessness, Kara (that's Supergirl's Kryptonian name) loses one. It lands on earth, in the hands of Faye Dunaway, a witch with dreams of world domination which the octahedron can fulfill. Kara goes to Earth to retrieve the octahedron, as the city cannot long survive without it. For obscure reasons, she disguises herself as Linda Lee, a student at a girls' academy in the Midwest. The long arm of coincidence makes Lois Lane's cousin her roommate. The only point of this seems to be to introduce Jimmy Olsen as Lana Lane's boyfriend, but, since he has nothing to do other than represent the otherwise absent cast of the "Superman" movies, this point seems pointless. Rather than bustle about looking for the octahedron, Supergirl wastes her time attending classes. There's another worthless subplot involving Dunaway's and Slater's rivalry over Hart Bochner, a gardener who attracts their attention. The screenplay of "Supergirl" is very arbitrary and makes little sense. Would two idiots really try to rape a woman in a Superman costume, particularly when she had already blown one of them through a wall and heated up the knife the other one pulls? Why does the octahedron make its container grow? Why does the voodoo wand Dunaway lays her hands on suddenly give her complete control over the octahedron's power? Why, when a love spell goes awry, doesn't Dunaway immediately break it? Again, don't bother sending me justifications, I really don't care. There's no point plugging holes in a Swiss cheese. David Odell deserves the blame for the screenplay. A few good lines do not make up for the overall dreadfulness of this script. Some people protested when, earlier this year, I predicted that "Supergirl" would be a disaster due to the choice of Jeannot Szwarc as director. They said that my assessment of Szwarc as a hack was too harsh. Well, I was right and they were wrong. Szwarc, in fact, gives a bad name to hacks. He has absolutely no visible talent. The man just cannot direct. Since Alexander Salkind has chosen him to direct "Santa Claus", too, that film also is doomed to disaster. No great matter, it was a rotten idea anyway, and by keeping Szwarc busy on it, Salkind may have kept him from ruining a film with some potential. I am quite sure that Szwarc's main attraction for Salkind is that he works quickly and cheaply. Rapid shooting is OK, but not if it shows, and "Supergirl" displays telltale signs of shoddy, careless direction, probably due in part to cutting corners. One of the few good things about "Supergirl" is the produc- tion design, which is superb. The sets are beautifully dressed and are quite original. The special effects are of variable quality and sometimes detract from the otherwise excellent surroundings. Many of the flying effects are unconvincing. To paraphrase the advertising slogan of the first "Superman" film, I do not believe that a girl can fly. There are also some overly obvious mattes and composite shots. On the other hand, some of the effects do work, particularly the carnage of an invisible monster sent to destroy Supergirl. The acting is also variable. Helen Slater starts out very badly, but eventually turns out all right. She is much better as Linda Lee than as Kara, and she is certainly not the find Chris- topher Reeve was. Hart Bochner has such a rotten part that it's hard to say whether he's unbearable through his own fault or not. Brenda Vaccaro, on leave from tampon commercials, is pretty good as Dunaway's sidekick. Peter Cook is largely wasted as Dunaway's ex-mentor, though he does have a good moment teaching the girls of Linda Lee's academy, reminiscent of some of the great skits he used to do with Dudley Moore in reviews like "Good Evening", classics like "The Frog and Peach", "One Leg Too Few", and "Down the Mine". But I digress. Mia Farrow and Simon Ward share only one scene as Kara's parents. Acting is a mystery to me, despite the fact that I have seen thousands of performances in films and have even done some acting on stage myself. Why is it that when Peter O'Toole, a very talented actor, lets out all the stops he is utterly delightful, whereas Faye Dunaway, also quite talented, is merely embarrassing when she uses the same tactic? Perhaps O'Toole would have been equally annoying if he had more scenes, but I don't think so. His eventual reappearance is one of the highlights of the film, even though his duties are just as silly as everyone else's. Faye Dunaway, on the other hand, overacts so outrageously that her perpetual presence is very hard to take. Some people may view her performance as high camp, and I suppose that that is what she was trying for, but I found her only intermittently amusing. The careless nature of "Supergirl" makes it completely unen- gaging. Only the less discriminating fans of special effects ex- travaganzas and those with a taste for surfeits of camp will get much out of it. "Supergirl" isn't really much fun, and, for this kind of film, that is the ultimate indictment. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ Date: 3 Dec 1984 10:29:07-EST From: rachiele@NADC Subject: terminator Just a few comments: Arnold Shwartzenegger(sp?) does have a shorter name: He is known to all his body-building fans as simply ARNOLD. How many Arnolds are there (besides the pig)? ****Slight spoiler***** Apparently the plot of the Terminator calls for a "static" theory of time, somewhat like Superman comics employed: No matter what you do to change the past, you will always find that what you have done to try to change it had already happened. This is different from the main other theory of time, which seems to indicate that every time you travel back in time, you are creating a new universe identical to your own, up to the point at which you flashed back. Jim ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 10-Dec SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #216 Date: 10 Dec 84 1227-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #216 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 10 Dec 84 1227-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #216 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 10 Dec 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 216 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov (3 msgs) & Asprin & Goulart & Gernsback, Films - A Modest Proposal & Dune (3 msgs) & Buckaroo Banzai ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mikey@trsvax.UUCP Subject: Re: Re: Re: Robots of Dawn * Date: Thu, 29 Nov 84 12:53:00 MST There were robot stories that took place after the death of Susan Calvin that explained the vanishing of robots on Earth, but not on the outer colonies. There are inconsistencies, but the presence or lack of robots is not a major one. Also, in TBM I detected just a trace of anti-robot sentiment that supposedly became widespread by the time of the three Elija Bailey novels and the short story that went with them. mikey at trsvax ------------------------------ From: mikey@trsvax.UUCP Subject: Re: Re: Robots of Dawn -> -> tieins Date: Thu, 29 Nov 84 12:57:00 MST Remember Bel Aarvdin (sp???), the explorer in Pebble in the Sky? He is mentioned in the original Foundation, as being a supporter of SOL for the "Owigin Qwestion". mikey at trsvax ------------------------------ From: gm@trsvax.UUCP Subject: Re: Re: Re: Robots of Dawn * Date: Fri, 30 Nov 84 16:57:00 MST If you have the paperback version of "The Robots of Dawn", look on the front cover. Directly below the the robot's spread feet, in the mound of dirt, is a shadowy face of a man. Anybody happen to know who this is? Baley? Asmiov? Also, did anyone read the "About the Author" paragraph at the very end of the book? Very amusing life story of Asmiov. It starts off: Issac Asmiov was born in the Soviet Union, much to his great suprise.... George Moore Tandy System Software uucp: {laidbak, sco, microsoft, allegra!convex!ctvax}!trsvax!gm arpa: cu-arpa.trsvax!gm@Cornell.ARPA ------------------------------ From: esmith@uok.UUCP Subject: Mything Persons (Non-Spoiler) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 84 13:44:00 MST Mything Persons by Robert Asprin I enjoyed the book, but I didn't think it was as good as the others in the series. I will call it a must for the Myth Adventure fan. Once again Bob has put our faithful heroes in complicated and humorus situations. To sum up in a nutshell: Light reading, (about one and a half hours, with constant interruptions), good humor, and just overall good fun. I liked it. What can I say I'm easy to please... "would you just turn the damn thing off!!!!" -Eric L. Smith !ctvax!uokvax!uok!esmith ------------------------------ From: esmith@uok.UUCP Subject: Help - Ron Goulart books Date: Wed, 28 Nov 84 13:49:00 MST Would someone out there in Netland give me a list of the books, short stories, etc. by Ron Goulart. I picked up a couple of books from the local used bookstore, by him and had a lot of fun reading them. "I tried shoving a wiener in the warp drive..." -Eric L. Smith !ctvax!uokvax!uok!esmith ------------------------------ From: rwl@uvacs.UUCP (Ray Lubinsky) Subject: Re: Hugo Gernsback Date: Fri, 30 Nov 84 17:35:48 MST Evelyn Leeper writes of Hugo Gernsback: > He didn't invent science fiction. Whether you want to claim > that science fiction was invented by Jonathan Swift (or even > earlier) or are one of those who dates (modern) science fiction > from Shelley, Verne, and Wells, you have to admit that Gernsback > did not invent it. He didn't even write much of it--his one > surviving work is RALPH 24C41+--and a pretty bad novel it is. He > didn't seek out and promote the best authors--Wells and Stapledon > were not regular contributors to AMAZING. What he did do was to > give science fiction its own name--and its own ghetto. Far from > performing a service for the genre, he acted in such a way that it > has taken almost fifty years to even attempt to recover from the > damage he did. Look, I love science fiction; I've been reading it since I was a child. In the past I have found myself attempting to justify it to people in terms of its merits (some of which just can't be found in "mainstream" fiction). However, I don't see any point in crying over lost chances for critical review of, say, Asimov's "Nightfall" in the New Yorker. It is not a story of human passions; it is not the kind of fiction that can help you to understand your own feelings about the drama of human existence. Rather, it is a story which takes you beyond that realm. It offers an alien perspective that can inspire new ways of piecing together your own puzzles of meaning and metaphor. For me, this exemplifies what SF has to offer to the literary community. I'm glad to see that the literary community is getting a chance to experience what SF has to offer now. But I don't think it was poor Hugo's fault that SF has been locked in a ghetto. It was inevitable; Gernsback was merely a mirror of that phase of SF history. Science fiction was not all that literarily acceptable at that time because, as a genre it didn't exist. Not even in the minds of its occasional authors. First, look at the Names mentioned in the previous article. Swift? He wasn't a science fiction writer; he was a social satirist. Verne? A writer of adventure stories; sometimes they involved "futuristic" hardware. Wells? In a biography I read some time ago, it was noted that the science fiction stories were not the works for which he wanted to be remembered; he was principally a mainstream author by his own definition. Lets face it, there was a time in the twenties and thirties when science fiction was just not that good. "Ralph 124C42+" was a middle-of-the-road example. I wouldn't blame reviewers for not being able to seriously critique a wet-dream stories of BEM's drooling over the quivvering bodies of naked virgins. But this was a phase. Science fiction of the forties began to rediscover the idea of human beings in fiction. By the time of the 1960's several authors had established themselves as standard-bearer's of the genre. Even then, SF hasn't done much to prove itself a fiction of human relevance. Take, for example the body of Heinlein's work after (or during) _Stranger_In_A_Strange_Land_. I'm sure I'll be flamed for this, but I think that Heinlein's juvenile novels (e.g., _Have_Space_Suit_Will_Travel_, _Red_Planet_, etc) have more human feeling to them than his later, supposedly more urbane and worldly, cyclopediae like _Time_Enough_For_Love_. I think that SF would have been in a ghetto for decades with or without Gernsback. By the time SF came to take itself seriously (after the BEM phase) it was dealing with matters of cosmic scope; this was not something that a member of the literary establishment was going to appreciate any more than the average person. I've always considered myself an elitest because I could appreciate science fiction. Not everyone can, and this is a matter apart from differing tastes. Now that we have all, to some extent learned to be "shock wave riders", science fiction is not all that hard to comprehend. Even better, it is gaining the personal relevance that separates a novel from hack work. I think Hugo and the BEM's played their part and now that part is over. Let's at least give him some credit for "science fiction" (he was thinking of calling it "scientifiction" [yuk!]). (WHEW! Just had to get that off my chest.) Ray Lubinsky University of Virginia, Dept. of Computer Science uucp: decvax!mcnc!ncsu!uvacs!rwl ------------------------------ From: reiher@ucla-cs.UUCP Subject: A Modest Proposal Date: Fri, 30 Nov 84 00:16:06 MST That last modest proposal wound up rather more modest than I had planned. Let's try again. Having just seen a different version of "Once Upon a Time in America", I was reminded of someone's earlier posting which postulated what a Star Wars movie directed by Sergio Leone would be like. How about a Star Wars movie directed by Orson Welles? Why not ******************************************* * * * Citizen Darth! * * * ******************************************* Luke could be dissastisfied with what he knows about his father, so he goes on a quest through the galaxy looking for the real Darth Vader. Everyone he meets would give him a different impression of what Vader was really like. Welles could even do a flashback to Vader's death and reveal that his last word was really "Rosebud". Think how hard it will be for even a Jedi like Luke to turn up a sled out of all the garbage in the universe. Perhaps the Emperor's true hold on Vader was that he held the sled for ransom! Perhaps Annakin Skywalker will be unable to become one with the Force (or whatever) until the sled is recovered. Maybe Han Solo could be sorely tempted to sell the sled for megacredits to some intergalactic souvenir collector. (Extra credit trivia question: Who currently owns Rosebud?) We might have something here. (Or, perhaps, not...) Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ From: reiher@ucla-cs.UUCP Subject: Re: Dune - Article in Forbes Magazine. Date: Thu, 29 Nov 84 21:41:57 MST A few inaccuracies here. David Lynch ("Eraserhead", "The Elephant Man") is the director, not Rafaella de Laurentiis, who is the producer. She previously produced "Conan the Barbarian", and stories from the set indicate that she is an active line producer, not a figurehead. $40 million for the production may be a slight exaggeration. The $40 million for distribution almost certainly is. The "10 films in 18 months" almost certainly refers to the total output of De Laurentiis' new studio in North Carolina (strange but true). Michael Cimino is, at this very moment, filming "The Year of the Dragon" (a film about Chinese tongs) there, and suffering from an acute shortage of Oriental extras. As the output of the studio, 10 films might be an overestimate, but it wouldn't surprise me too much if they managed it. Of course, many of the films will be cheap trash. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ From: tim@reed.UUCP (Flanagan) Subject: DUNE -- accurate information Date: Sun, 2 Dec 84 17:20:11 MST I have been looking forward to DUNE for some time, and have spent a good portion of my spare time and cash on anything likely to tip me off to the status of the finished product. Here is some of the more relevant data: Yes, Dino De Laurenti$ supplied most of the funds for production and promotion. He is, however, leaving the actual management of the film to his daughter, Rafaella. Early in production, the film was moved to Cherobusca (?sp?) studios in Mexico, primarily for financial reasonses as well as the predominance of large, open, undeveloped expanses with nothing but SAND all over them. Approximately 3,000 (!!) extras were cast for the final battle scene. ( this was possible, I gather, due to the supply of cheap mexican labor). DUNE cost about $40 million. Toto is producing, arranging, and performing most of the soundtrack, with the Vienna Symphony Orchestra at their disposal. (As a matter of fact, I bought the soundtrack yesterday, and it is much better than one might expect... The two groups of performers (rock-group and symphony orchestra) work very well together, and at no time does one feel like he is listening to the next top-40 hit, but rather a fine piece of mood-setting music) The only person who I have had contact with who actually went to one of the preview screenings (ahh, to live in L.A.), had this to say: No, there were NOT any big disappointments. Yes, it would behoove one greatly to have read the book because the time element forced David Lynch to "jump into" the plot, leaving very little early develpment for those not familiar with the characters. (I suspect this may be the reason so many have come away from the screening disappointed) The final battle scene (with Fremen on sandworms, et al) is FANTASTIC. Now, I don't know how good this guy's judgement is, and I haven't seen the film myself, so bear in mind that this is only what I've heard. If anybody has other information, please post it. If anyone out there knows ANYTHING about the costumes(i.e. materials or processes used, approximate costs, design details, etc.) send the information (or appropriate addresses where I should inquire) to me. I am hoping to construct an accurate Feyd Rautha costume, and a friend and I are looking closely at the Atreides uniforms (notice the borders at the top of the collar and the hawk patches---beautiful work...difficult to reproduce accurately). Till I see the film, I remain: Suspensefully waiting, Tim ("I spent $250 on my ST II uniform") Flanagan ------------------------------ From: moriarty@fluke.UUCP (Jeff Meyer) Subject: Re: Dune (& Dino) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 84 22:46:12 MST On the other hand, Dino has done the excellent "Ragtime" adaptation (if ANYONE could truly have adapted it), and THE DEAD ZONE, which is one of the most underated movies of last year -- much better than the book. So it looks like a toss-up to me. Oh, Frank Herbert says it's great, but then he also has contracts for the options on the next score of Dune movies, and is in trouble for back taxes in our ol' state of Washington (talk about the White Plague... the Worst Plague is tax people :-) ). Also, he keeps hinting that Lucas plagarized from Dune in the STAR WARS movies. Frank should be so lucky. Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc. UUCP: {cornell,decvax,ihnp4,sdcsvax,tektronix,utcsrgv}!uw-beaver \ {allegra,gatech!sb1,hplabs!lbl-csam,decwrl!sun,ssc-vax} -- !fluke!moriarty ARPA: fluke!moriarty@uw-beaver.ARPA ------------------------------ From: moriarty@fluke.UUCP (Jeff Meyer) Subject: Buckaroo Banzai times three Date: Sun, 2 Dec 84 22:18:21 MST Well, Mr. B. Banzai and his merry band of new wave musicians and particle physicists is out again at several cities... and after my third sitting, I still find it one of the best movies of the years. You've heard me yack about this all year. However, I took two people with me (my parents -- they heard an excellent review on ALL THINGS CONSIDERED), without telling them anything about the plot. I just told them it was pretty fragmented and could be somewhat confusing. Well, they loved the movie -- Dad thought it was probably a good successor for the saturday matinees of the past (I remember a kid behind me whispering "Watch out, Buckaroo!" behind me) -- and neither of them thought it confusing. They suggested that, being forewarned, they had payed closer attention than they usually do, and that made all the difference. So, if you've been scared away from this movie due to claims that it is incomprehensible -- take heart. You're missing one heck of a treat in this movie. Any opposing views may simply go to hell. Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc. UUCP: {cornell,decvax,ihnp4,sdcsvax,tektronix,utcsrgv}!uw-beaver \ {allegra,gatech!sb1,hplabs!lbl-csam,decwrl!sun,ssc-vax} -- !fluke!moriarty ARPA: fluke!moriarty@uw-beaver.ARPA ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 10-Dec SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #217 Date: 10 Dec 84 1255-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #217 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 10 Dec 84 1255-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #217 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 10 Dec 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 217 Today's Topics: Art - Giger, Books - Asimov & Ellison & Kurtz & Niven (3 msgs) & Powers & Gernsback, Films - Dune (2 msgs) & Buckarro Banzai & Starman Television - Star Trek ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: keithd@cadovax.UUCP (Keith Doyle) Subject: Re: H.R. Giger's Works Date: Mon, 3 Dec 84 10:54:50 MST > .... I would like to know if anyone knows where I can get some >sort of collection of the works of H.R. Giger >He has also done some illustrations for the new movie 'Dune'. His original collection 'Necronomicon' is now out of print. Copies on the collectors market now go for upwards of $100. His work for 'Dune' was done for Alexandro Jodorowski quite a few years ago when Jodorowski was going to do it. I hear David Lynch decided not to use him for the upcoming version (they're both painters, and each have their own unique style) He has produced a book of his work on 'Dune' for Jodorowski, but it too, may be out of print by now. Other examples of his work exist in various forms, he's been in Penthouse, Heavy Metal, and I think, OMNI. His Alien was made into a 1 foot tall 'action figure' by Kenner, but I think this too is no longer available. One new item that just came out: a 3-D tee shirt with Alien Jr. bursting out of the chest. It's put out by a company that produces some very gross 3-D tee shirts, (hatchets stuck in them, guts hanging out, etc.) and they're brand new products. Keith Doyle {ucbvax,ihnp4,decvax}!trwrb!cadovax!keithd "You'll PAY to know what you REALLY think!" ------------------------------ From: mikey@trsvax.UUCP Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Robots of Dawn Subject: New Deryni Novel by Katherine Kurtz Having read, "The Bishop's Heir" some weeks back, I can give it a recommendation. Buy it. The only thing wrong with it is that once you finish it, you'll have to wait an indefinite period for the next one to come out. ------------------------------ From: mwm@ea.UUCP Subject: Re: Woman of Steel, etc.? Date: Mon, 3 Dec 84 14:23:00 MST I don't know if anyone has prodded Niven, but I've got something from uokvax!jab that delves into the problem. He also considers the problems of raising a superkid from birth, as opposed to from already being potty trained (For the Kent's sake, I *hope* Clark was potty trained when they adopted him!). Subject: Clarke's Law Well, if we're going to bring up Clarke's Law, let's not forget Niven's Converse to Clarke's Law: Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Dec 84 13:48 CDT From: John_Mellby Subject: Tim Powers, Dinner at Deviant's Palace Dinner at Deviant's Palace -- Tim Powers Tim Power's third (fourth?) book is just out. I read it in two late night sessions over this weekend. I think this is his best written book to date, although I admit I liked the premise of "The Drawing of the Dark" best. TDotD was about a conflict in the 14th(?) century between the empires of the East and West. The East was marching on Vienna to destroy either the Western King (Fisher king of Grail legend) or the Western Heart. The western heart was the oldest brewery in the world, and when the latest batch of beer matures (once every 600 years or so) it will revive the West. I like the idea of Western civilization being based on beer. Mild Spoiler DaDP is set in future LA. Aftermath of global war, with depressing civilization left. There are a few bits of technology left, but characters were surprised to find functional firearms, or internal combustion, for example. There is a cult, Jaybush, formed by Norton Jaybush, where the members take Sacrament where they have parts of their individuality taken from them and 'consumed'. The hero is a 'redeemer' who rescues and deprogramms cult members. The story is his 'quest' to rescue a girl he once knew, and the truth behind the cult and its relationship to the Deviant's Palace. They started to sneak in clues about the cult early but I figured it out very late in the book, in what seemed an abrupt revelation. I think the pacing in the book could have been better, but all in all, its one of the best out lately. ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 5 Dec 1984 05:28:30-PST From: minow%rex.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: Editorial on Hugo Gernsback I must take exception to several of Evelyn Leeper's statments on Hugo Gernsback. First, the title (and hero) of his novel was named "Ralph 124C41+" -- to explain why would be a spoiler. I read the book when I was a kid, and don't remember it as being much worse than anything else I was reading. Evelyn claims that, after Amazing Stories started, science fiction disappeared from the "mainstream" magazines. I don't thing this is true. Many of Heinlein's stories were first published in McCalls, Colliers, and the Saturday Evening Post. These stories form the core of his "future history." Indeed, the classic "The Green Hills of Earth" was published by either Colliers or SEP. I first read Heinlein's novels when they were serialized in the Boy Scout's magazine "Boy's Life." (Now you know why there were Boy Scouts in Farmer in the Sky.) The rise of Science Fiction specialty magazines in the 50's expanded the market for authors, without necessarily increasing the quality. With an assured market of fans who would read anything, authors didn't have to compete for space in general audience magazines (which didn't survive the advent of television). The fans grew up, still hungry for SF, and became an important market force -- I remember reading that SF comprises 15% of all paperback fiction. So, it isn't suprising that genre authors are reviewed in newspapers and mainstream magazines. While I wouldn't give too much credit to Gernsback, he did feed quite a few authors who would otherwise have to work for a living, and, by giving them an opportunity to develop their talents, gave them the chance to break into mainstream markets. ------------------------------ From: moriarty@fluke.UUCP (Jeff Meyer) Subject: Re: Dune & The Kiddies [:-)] Date: Sun, 2 Dec 84 23:13:15 MST > Check out the children's section of your local bookstore. It > should have The Dune Storybook and The Dune Activity Book, both > with pictures from the movie. Yup, just what every parent wants when they get home from work: 20 little buggers dressed up in wetsuits running at them with steak knives screaming: "JIIIIHAAAAAAD!!" "They dared to call me mad! ME! HA! HA! HA!...." Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc. UUCP: {cornell,decvax,ihnp4,sdcsvax,tektronix,utcsrgv}!uw-beaver \ {allegra,gatech!sb1,hplabs!lbl-csam,decwrl!sun,ssc-vax} -- !fluke!moriarty ARPA: fluke!moriarty@uw-beaver.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 4 Dec 1984 08:08:21-PST From: kovner%regina.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: EX Regarding Inconsistencies in DUNE: My wife has always wondered why, with water so scarce, spice beer and spice coffee were plentiful. How were they made? Also, while looking for DOON (?) (which I didn't find), I saw a DUNE calendar, with scenes from the movie. (It didn't say so, but it was copyright DiLaurentis Procductions, and the scenes were obviously photographs.) The calendar included NO scenes of Makers!! It included few scenes that would REALLY tell the quality of the movie. (I guess they're holding these until the movie comes out.) Most scenes were close-ups, and the set design is excellent. Stillsuits are not quite what I imagined, but they are good. The scenes I remember are: One panorama of a city at night; good but I don't know what city. The Gom Jabbar: the box is more ornate; Paul does not (yet) have the knife at his throat, but the Reverend Mother and the background are almost what I imagined. Excellent. Scene of the move to the palace in Arrakis; good. Scenes of Fremen, inside (w/ stillsuits open) and outside (w/ stillsuit masks and gloves in place. Fremen holding crysknives high (welcoming Paul?). Good. Baron Harkonnen (?) in a stillsuit. Too thin! No suspensors to hold his fat. (Maybe it wasn't the Baron but who would it be in that case?) The Emperor on his throne, holding court. Very ornate and decadent. In general, it looks quite good, but none of the critical scenes were there. I guess we'll have to wait. Steve Kovner I must wait. Waiting is the time-killer. I will wait the time; I will let it pass by me and through me Until the movie is here. UUCP: { decvax, allegra, ucbvax }!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-regina!kovner ARPA: kovner%regina.DEC@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ From: gtaylor@lasspvax.UUCP (Greg Taylor) Subject: Re: Buckaroo Banzai times three Date: Tue, 4 Dec 84 07:22:35 MST moriarty@fluke.UUCP (Jeff Meyer) writes: >So, if you've been scared away from this movie due to claims that >it is incomprehensible -- take heart. You're missing one heck of a >treat in this movie. After having hung on for who knows how long waiting for it to wander into the Maul cinema, I gotta agree. If anything, the strong sense that I had is that the script writers themselves had great fun writing the thing, the actors really enjoyed themselves, and then the studio people saw the rough cuts and laid a brick, sending some poor hapless smurf scurrying into the editing room with instructions to make it more linear. Perhaps if they'd adopted the "Repo Man" school of PostModern editing (Pastiche is the name of the game, don't be afraid to *let* the movie unroll in the little world it has created for itself), this would have been truly transcendant. A diamond in the rough, definitely. Any film that opens with a Marvin Gaye quote in the middle of a desert test *can't* be all bad, niet waar? Greg ------------------------------ From: chin@ucbvax.ARPA Subject: Starman review Date: Wed, 5 Dec 84 20:52:19 MST This was gleamed from a "sneak preview", so some of it may change by the time Starman actually is released. Rating: 3.5/4 Synopsis: Starman is billed as a "Science Fiction Love Story". Jeff Bridges plays an alien who takes up the Voyager probe's invitation to visit earth, is shot down, and clones a human body by analysis of chromosomes in some hair. This body is a replica of that of the husband of a recently breaved widow, played by Karen Allen. The story is about the many humorous/touching/suspensful (in that order) episodes the two encounter as the Starman enlists Karen Allen's help in driving to a rendevous with his mother ship. Allen of course gradually falls in love with the Starman along the way. (Note: I didn't put a spoiler warning for the above because it does not detract anything from the movie). Critique: This is the movie that Close Encounters tried to be, but failed. It's an ET for adults (no cutesy aliens ala Speilburg/Lucas here). Special Effects are minimimal and used only in appropriate situations. The acting by Bridges and Allen is very good. The script is spotty with some great humorous skits but interspersed with some really hokey lines (e.g. the Starman states that the best quality of humanity is that "you are at your best when things are at their worse" which elicited an unintended chuckle from the audience). Although the plot is completely predictable, the love story is still quite believable largely through the superior acting of the two principles. Unfortunately, all the other parts are completely cardboard, ranging from a trigger-happy, totally inhumane military officer, to an eccentric, bleeding-heart-liberal scientist (contrasted with stereotype scientists in white lab coats). This is a science fiction film with a large human element for people that like warm humorous love stories and not Special Effects for its own sake. David Chin ucbvax!chin chin@BERKELEY ------------------------------ Date: 05 Dec 84 17:01:52 PST (Wed) Cc: sra@mit-xx Subject: Starfleet Technical Manual From: Alastair Milne I've seen it (not a bad Christmas present for an sf fanatic), but my major impression is that it's firmly based on the old series, and incorporates little or nothing of the progress (no flames, please) made in the movies. I expect it was written before the movies, but it hasn't been kept up to date. So don't expect to keep up with the background of the Star Trek world by reading it. As for 3-D chess, I can't remember any mention of it -- but then, I wasn't looking for it. Alastair PS Almost forgot: I haven't seen the manual very recently. Does anybody know whether updated versions are available or planned? ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 10-Dec SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #218 Date: 10 Dec 84 1326-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #218 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 10 Dec 84 1326-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #218 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 10 Dec 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 218 Today's Topics: Books - Adams & Bradley & Brunner & Padgett (2 msgs) & Vance & Wolfe & The Flying Sorcerors & Gernsback, Films - 2010 & Supergirl Television - Star Trek ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 6 Dec 1984 03:31 EST From: GZT.FORD%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #214 Although I do have reservations about the book, I can not quite agree with Jeff Bowles's "best line" quote. The book contains much typical Adams- humor, (i.e. hilarious at times) but it is spread a bit thin. I think this is due largely to the nature of this book: it is a collection and resolution of most (but not all) of the loose ends left from the first three. It is as if the previous book (Life, the Universe, and Everything) told that Ford, Arthur, and everyone lived happily ever after, and this book is for those folks who want to know the details of how, why, and with whom. The overall style is slightly different, (difficult for me to put my finger on exactly how) but the old Adams touch is there. This book semms to be a general rapping-it-all up, but as I said, there are still loose ends left to be explored. It has been determined that Agrajag will be killed in yet another life by Arthur, but it didn't happen in this book. Adams even says in one of the last pages of this book, "...we can talk about why it's interesting later." Will there be another? Since trilogy doesn't mean three books, who knows what it does mean? But I hope Douglas Adams finds some new ideas, and maybe even a plot for his next work. And in sumary: Not quite up to par with the first three, but an enjoyable HHGTG-style adventure for those who follow the series. Anyone who REALLY knows where his towel is will enjoy it at least as much as I did. Happy Hitchhiking!! -=] Michael Ditto (FORD%OZ@MIT-MC) [=- ------------------------------ Return-Path: Date: Fri, 7 Dec 84 14:51 EST From: Nancy Connor Subject: Darkover I tried to mail this to just mjjil, but apparently his computer wasn't receiving mail. I saw another request for it, so I thought I'd send it to the list. As far as I know, this is the complete list of Darkover books in the proper order. If anyone tells you about one I've missed, I'd appreciate it if you would let me know. Darkover Landfall The landing Hawkmistress MacAran gift, King Carolin Two to Conquer Signing of the Compact The Spell Sword \ The Ages of Chaos Don't remember the topic Stormqueen / Matrix war and genetic tampering The Shattered Chain \ Same time Free Amazons - their point of view The Forbidden Tower / Story about the Towers Thendara House Free Amazons - Terran point of view Star of Danger Kennard and Larry meeting The Winds of Darkover Larry's fostering The Bloody Sun Don't remember the topic Heritage of Hastur About Sharra worship The Sword of Aldones - re-written as Sharra's Exile "" The Planet Savers Darkovan & Terran working together The World Wreckers Terrans try to wreck Darkover Anthologies (all times in Darkover's history) Sword of Chaos The Keeper's Price Other books by MZB Hunters of the Red Moon Shapechanging hunters steal people to conduct a hunt The Survivors The survivors of ^ go on another mission Falcons of Narabedla Strange book about people who use sorcery The Mists of Avalon About the women of King Arthurs' time The House Between Worlds Gateways between strange worlds Sword & Sorceress Short stories about women fighters & witches Chains of Isis (?) Women rule a world with men considered pets Survey Ship People being chosen for an elite mission Grayhaven Haven't read these yet Endless Voyage The Brass Dragon Door Through Space Seven From the Stars -Nancy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Dec 84 11:13 CST From: "Brett D. Slocum" Subject: Re: Networks and Science Fiction Susser: I think the book you might be refering to is SHOCKWAVE RIDER by John Brunner. (**** CAPSULE REVIEW ****) The US (or maybe the world) has a huge network that everyone has access to through phones, terminals, etc. Each person has an identification number that serves as social security number, telephone number, income tax number, bank account, etc. You must petition the government in order to move, and then your new location is recorded in the network (read government) databanks. The main character is a guy who knows the network so well that he can change his identity and ID number and cause all sorts of trouble using viruses (virii?). He lives outside of the system, and changes his identity whenever the government gets too close to finding him. I would recommend it. ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 6 Dec 1984 20:58:09-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Jerry Boyajian) Subject: re: "Lewis Padgett" > From: Stabron%xls-plexus01.darcom@darcom-hq.arpa (Judith Tabron) > P.S. Did you know that "Lewis Padgett" is a pseudonym for Henry > Kuttner and C.L. Moore as a writing team? Well, sort of... "Lewis Padgett" was sometimes Kuttner and Moore together, sometimes Kuttner alone, and sometimes Moore alone. Most of the Padgett stories are collaborations, however, as are some of the stories by-lined "Lawrence O'Donnell" (most are Moore alone). To confuse the issue even more, many of the stories credited to Kuttner alone that were written after he and Moore got married are actually collaborations! See the entries for Kuttner and Moore in Peter Nicholls' SCIENCE FICTION ENCYCLOPEDIA. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Dec 84 11:25:06 EST From: rajunas@DEC-HUDSON Subject: Lewis Padgett's "The Fairy Chessmen" Speaking of Lewis Padgett (Kuttner and Moore), and of chess variants, there was a long story (novella?) that I read many years ago and would like to find again. It was in a library book (hardcover) titled "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and The Fairy Chessmen." The book consisted of just those two stories, which were quite long. I can't remember anything about the first story, "Tomorrow and Tomorrow," but I recall quite a bit about "The Fairy Chessmen." Supposedly fairy chess consisted of variants of ordinary chess, with different rules, pieces, and boards, and players therefore had to be very mentally flexible to succeed at fairy chess (I have never heard of fairy chess elsewhere). The world of the story was deadlocked in a massive war of two superpowers, very evenly matched until someone from the future comes back and slips one side some advanced science, in the form of an equation whose applications defy currently understood physics. Unfortunately, study of this equation and its applications drives scientists and mathematicians mad. The good guys (via espionage) get the equation, and get the bright idea of finding a mathematician who plays fairy chess (figuring he would be mentally flexible enough to retain his sanity). There are complications and subplots, such as temporally disoriented individuals who had the misfortune to be conceived near alien artifacts, double agents, and Ridgeley, the man from the future. In the end, those of our heros who have managed to remain sane face the prospect of a peaceful and united world and can contemplate the exporation of space. It has been many, many years since I read this story (I was in high school). I would very much like to read it again to see if it was as good as my adolescent mind thought it was. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Dec 84 14:12:06 pst From: kalash%ucbingres@Berkeley (Joe Kalash) Subject: Jack Vance pen names > I like a lot of Jack Vance, too. Have you read any of his > mainstream/detective novels (sorry, don't recall the pseudonym)? He normally write the mysterys under his real name of "John Holbrook Vance", "Jack Vance" could technically be considered a pseudonym. He has also written under the "Ellery Queen" house name "The Four Johns", "The Madman Theory", and "A Room to Die In". For those of you with access to HUGH libraries, maybe you can find "Take My Face" as Peter Held "Isle of Peril" as Alan Wade Although I wouldn't hold my breath. I have only seen one each of those books, and I am looking for them through rare book dealers. Joe Kalash kalash@berkeley ------------------------------ Date: 6 Dec 84 16:53:08 EST From: GOLD@RU-BLUE.ARPA Subject: plan(e)t engineering Plan(e)t Engineering is available through the NESFA press for 13 dollars through: NESFA Inc. Box G MIT Branch Post Office Cambridge, MA 02139 OR: you can go to Boskone the weekend of Feb.15-17 and buy it directly! I highly recommend the convention, it is a large, well run regional at the Copley Marriott Hotel. ------------------------------ Date: 06 Dec 84 18:29:57 PST (Thu) Subject: Flying Sorceres From: Dave Godwin Folks, What with all he recent fuss over Harlan, and the recent discussion of Niven & Gerrold's 'The Flying Sorceres', I'm suprised that one of the lovliest puns in the book has been ( I think... ) overlooked. There is a point in the book where the nuclear pile in Purple's egg goes boom. Lant later describes this event to Purple as the egg 'being struck by the wrath of Elcin, the tiny god of thunder and loud noises.' Now who do you suppose that could be a take-off on ? Dave Godwin UC Irvine ------------------------------ Date: Thu 6 Dec 84 19:23:38-EST From: Janice Subject: Why honor Hugo Gernsback? It's already been pointed out that sf was not a "respected" field of literature before AMAZING. (Using Jules Verne as an example is fallacious; the French to this day take sf a great deal more seriously as literature than do Americans.) With good reason. Some of that early stuff (including Gernsback's) is enough to make you barf. What Gernsback did was spread the gospel of sf. He began by printing the occasional "scientifiction" (as he called it) story in his electronics magazine, and eventually determined there was enough reader interest to start a magazine devoted solely to such stories. He helped create and increase that interest. You must remember that the pulp era had magazines (and ghettos) for everything: sf, mysteries, Westerns, romances, "men's fiction," doctor stories, etc. That was how popular (as opposed to "literary") fiction was being marketed at the time. The pulp market eventually died out, with the only such specialty magazines left the sf magazines and a couple of mystery magazines. The ghettos remain in just about all those genres, though. The problem is that science fiction (and, to some extent, mysteries, although that's another subject) has outgrown its ghetto, has become better than pulp fiction. (Not all of it has, of course.) The market is slowly beginning to recognize this, as witness the best-seller list appearances of so many sf books of late. But that will take time. Back to Hugo Gernsback. He did not deprive sf of respectability, nor did he ghettoize it from "real" literature. What he did was give it a place in the then-expanding pulp market and allow it to grow. Because of the magazines' existence, sf is now almost the only field in which it is possible to make money by selling short stories. (Ask any "mainstream" writer how hard it is to break into the few paying markets for his fiction.) For this reason, we have an exciting, growing field. That is why we honor Hugo Gernsback. He gave sf (in this country) a nursery. It is hardly his fault if much of the world refuses to recognize that science fiction has since grown up. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Dec 84 13:13:19 PST (Wednesday) Subject: 2010 Jupiter Effects From: Jerry The scenes of Jupiter in the upcoming 2010 should be very realistic and close to the NASA pictures, mainly because they are computer generated efx derived from the NASA pictures. Digital Productions (LA) has done some incredible work on animating the clouds of Jupiter. They took some NASA/JPL still photos and sweated over the math for several months and finally got some real nice simulated time-lapse shots of Jupiter. I understand these will appear several times as monitor displays, etc. The space ships, etc. will be standard model shots (still the cheapest way). ~ Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Fri 7 Dec 84 14:43:30-PST From: Bruce Subject: Re: /Supergirl/ (V9 #215) This review complains about Supergirl wasting her time attending classes as Linda Lee and that the movie in general makes little sense. It's easy to explain the things that don't make sense (below), but much harder to explain the things that do make sense (sic). For example, if Supergirl can so easily visit us, why don't all the people from Argo City do this...? | From: reiher@ucla-cs.UUCP (Peter Reiher) | | At any rate, the city is kept going by a couple of power sources | known as octahedrons. These power sources are actually omegahedrons, not octahedrons. I hope that explains all the other confusing parts of the movie. (:-) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 1984 03:00 EST From: GZT.FORD%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Re: Tridimentional Chess (a la Star Trek) The "Star Fleet Technical Manual" mentioned in the last digest does include layout, dimensions, pictures of playing pieces (same as traditional chess) and rules for play. The rules basically are the same as traditional chess, with a few exceptions: The starting position has changed; some pieces start on the "attack boards." The multiple levels are dealt with by allowing a piece just moved to be placed on any available square in a vertical line with the traditional destination. Also the "attack boards" are small 2 by 2 square boards which can be moved, but only when empty or occupied by exactly one pawn. The spoken notation of course requires modification, as in the Star Trek cliche, "Queen to queen's level 3." I have not yet had the opportunity to play, as my board is still under construction, but I do find it remarkable that "just a prop" is so well designed and consistent with traditional chess (Total of 64 squares, similar starting positions, etc.) By the way, the official name is "Tridimentional chess." -=] Michael Ditto, (FORD@MIT-OZ) [=- ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 11-Dec SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #219 Date: 11 Dec 84 0930-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #219 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Dec 84 0930-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #219 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 11 Dec 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 219 Today's Topics: Books - Attanasio & Martin & Powers & Gernsback & A Conundrum, Films - 2010 (2 msgs), Television - Amazing Tales & Star Trek, Miscellaneous - Time Travel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 08 Dec 84 14:31:51 PST (Sat) Subject: A.A. Attanasio - new author From: Greg Finnegan I just finished reading RADIX by A.A. Attanasio and felt compelled to write this immediately. This is his first book (according to some of the blurbs on the covers), and this first effort leaves me wondering how he will do in the future. The book revolves around a somewhat odd hero, Sumner Kagan, who lives in the 23rd century after earth has passed through a stream of radiation called the Line emanating from the center of the galaxy. Needless to say, this plays havoc with earth's inhabitants, which now range from badly distorted humans with beetle-like exoskeletons to god-minds. Sumner becomes entangled in the affairs of half the world and the story revolves around his deeds... I won't go on because just outlining the plot would spoil the book because I would have to explain almost every detail (there is a glossary of terms, a biography of the cast, and a time line - all needed). One note: the book is full of imagery; so full that sometimes it is overburdening (this is not an example of excessive imagery): Patterns of fire circled him - the stars: emblems of all directions, the intersections of never and always. In the star-patterns he saw the origin: light, the ardor and selfishness of It, the chthonic journey, descanting into geometry, echoing across the shell of time as language: mesons talking atoms into being, molecular communities communicating, no end to It, on addition, time, the futureless deception, until the final addition, the mindfire of consciousness that burns through the drug of dreams and anneals the pain of living with the living pain. The whole book is filled with such imagery, alternating with solid plot development and sometimes confused characterization. Sometimes the characters do things that up until that point, would not have ever considered. But all in all it is an interesting book. I would recommend it to anyone looking for something different in the sf market, even if it is the only book that I have read since the 7th grade that caused me to seek the dictionary more than once - even if only to see if the word actually existed. -- Greg Finnegan finnegan@uci-icsc p.s. I just saw the review for his new book in the L.A. Times book review - yes! a sf book, yet alone one from a relatively unknown author on only his second book! - called "In Other Worlds" (Morrow: $12.95, 211 pp.). Sounds like even more imagery. ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 6 Dec 1984 21:00:25-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Jerry Boyajian) Subject: re: FEVRE DREAM > From: Jim Aspnes > ...Wolfe has done more substantial works (_Fevre > Dream_ comes to mind), ... FEVRE DREAM was not written by Gene Wolfe, but by George R. R. Martin, another writer of high quality. Though an ardent fan of Martin's work, I had to admit that his weak point (in general) was in the endings of his stories. With FEVRE DREAM and his subsequent novel, THE ARMAGEDDON RAG, though, he seems to have solved this problem. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Sat 8 Dec 84 14:48:07-EST From: Wang Zeep Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #215 Tim Powers lovers will be happy to know that his new book, "Dinner at Deviant's Palace" is out. It takes place in a post-nuclear war LA, and as I haven't finished it yet, I can't post a review. So far, it appears that his books just keep getting better.... wz ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Dec 84 12:04:01 -0200 From: eyal%wisdom.BITNET@Berkeley (Eyal mozes) Subject: Re: Gernsback and Ghettoization There is another aspect to this issue which people seem to be ignoring. The main reason why SF had to be 'ghettoized' is that it was one of the last fortresses of Romanticism in literature. The 19th century was the great era of Romanticism in literature; the century of Victor Hugo, Edmond Rostand, Walter Scott, and many others like them. If you wanted a view of the grandeur of man, a portrayal of inspiring characters working purposefully to achieve their goals, and a suspenseful, skillfully constructed plot, you could find all this in the mainstream literature. When you have all that, you don't really NEED science-fiction. When the 20th century started, this wasn't so any longer. Mainstream literature was now almost completely under the rule of naturalism. Science-fiction became one of the only two places where readers who still wanted inspiring characters and interesting plots could find them (the other place was thrillers and mystery fiction); and they could also find two other things: a refreshingly optimistic view of the future, badly needed by those whom mainstream fiction (and, in many cases, real life) has succeeded in depressing; and "hard-core", thought-provoking scientific speculations. With this situation, the only way for science-fiction to survive was to be "ghettoized"; the only other possibility was to become "legitimate" and "respectable" by being as boring and depressing as all the rest - which is, in essence, what the "new wave in SF" did several decades later. It is interesting to note that the first two great writers of SF signalled the two different ways it will go. On the one hand, there was Jules Verne, who, from the start, had all the values good SF has to offer; the "Golden Age of SF" was, in fact, the Golden Age of the Verne tradition. On the other hand, there was H. G. Wells, who used his great ingenuity in plot construction to present stories just as malevolent and pessimistic, and just as unscientific, as those of Harlan Ellison and Ray Bradbury. And today? Now, when, in mainstream literature, what we have is "The World According to Garp", the traditional values of SF are as crucial as ever. But now SF is emerging from its "ghetto", and we can find more and more writers following the Wells tradition (only in part, though; they do have Wells' depressing pessimism, but not his interesting plots). It is true that there still are a few authors who are offering us what SF really has to offer (there is only one contemporary author I can think of who does it consistently - James P. Hogan); and, of course, this requires them to remain as "ghettoized", as ignored by the mainstream, as SF used to be. It seems, then, that the "ghettoization" of SF was really a great boon to readers, and we should all thank Gernsback for helping achieve this. It's just a pity that it didn't last longer. Eyal Mozes eyal%wisdom.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA (CSNET) eyal@wisdom.bitnet (ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: 7 Dec 84 08:28:17 EST From: JoSH Subject: Conundrum Can you identify the following science fiction classic: The title of the book refers to a planet, which is the home of a "chosen people", who are somehow different, somehow better, than the average person selected at random elsewhere. The planet is threatened by an evil galactic empire. The story revolves around a hero who saves it, with the help of the special people of course, from the evil empire's dastardly aims. As the story opens, our hero is about to be tested by someone immensely older and wiser than he is. This someone seems to be part of a secretive force which has, and will continue to, manipulate the hero to get him into the critical situations to come. The hero is not on the special planet when this happens. Not too far into the story, the hero is betrayed, suffering a setback leaving him in an apparently hopeless situation. This actually, however, puts him with the special people, and the plot proceeds apace. All is not sweetness and light with the forces of the evil empire and its various co- and sub- conspirators. There is much action as they jockey for position with each other. The hero grows in powers/abilities, not only of the sort that make the special people special, but particular unique powers inherent in himself alone. Much of his struggle is to try to understand his own nature. There are battles in which the special people perform amazingly against the supposedly superior forces of the evil empire. The book closes over the aftermath of the final battle wherein the hero has triumphed. His joy is not complete because someone supposedly very close to him, but who hasn't really showed up very much in the book, has been killed in the course of the fighting. This SF classic, and it is a classic which had a major impact and whose name is instantly recognizeable to most fans, is NOT Dune. See if you can guess it. --JoSH ------------------------------ Date: Sat 8 Dec 84 03:16-EST From: James M. Turner Subject: 2010, Oddity too AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!! Ok, now that I've gotten that out of my system... <<>> Allegedly, Clarke and Peter Hyams (the director) stayed in close contact during the making of the film via electronic mail. I'd love to see the letter from Hyams to Clarke saying, ``Oh, by the way, I've decided to totally change the point of your story, and make it a political statement instead...'' I understand the need for a movie to remove or add plot to tighten things up, but that movie is just plain awful. The science is worse than 2001's, 15 years later! The effects were at best mediocre, and the whole Russian-US business was totally ... words fail me! More to the point, Clarke's 2010 makes the point that Americans and Russians can learn to work together, in the movie, we need aliens to "show us the way". All this does is foster the belief that humanity is unable to solve it's own problems. If a heavy-handed ultra-liberal director is going to ruin a film, at least he should ruin it right. <<>> James Turner lmi-capricorn!jmturn%CCC@MIT-MC physics!mitccc!lmi-capricorn!jmturn ------------------------------ Date: 9 Dec 84 03:38:19 EST From: Liz Subject: 2010: "OPEN THE THEATRE DOORS, HAL!" taaaah TaaaaH TAAAAH TAH-TAH...(tum-tum tum-tum-tum-tum) Zarathustra spake, but Arthur C. Clarke didn't listen. The "something wonderful" advertised in Peter Hyams's "2010: The year we make contact," isn't. The acting is respectable, the special effects are superb, and the women are handsome. The plot is lacking a certain something - challenge. Can you say overkill, boys and girls? we knew you could. Part of the movie had us holding our breath and hanging on to our chairs...and we still feel something for some of the characters ( a whole half hour has passed). Still, the movie seems to have left a bad taste in our mouths. For a long while we considered coming to spend our 2.50 again....and then "something wonderful" happened. Something blunderful happened, and we can only blame it on the plot. This isn't to say that we weren't warned: Peter Hyams has stated repeatedly that 2010 is not meant to mimic 2001. In a TV interview last evening, Hyams stated that "2001 asked questions; 2010 answers them," and this is indeed the case. However, the answers provided by Hyams were trite and shallow. They didn't answer any of the questions which we brought to the movie. HAL, the hacker's wet dream in 2001, is completely re-characterized by Hyams. The familiar, placatingly threatening nature of HAL's voice is still with us, but his daredevil personality has been erased. Dr. Chandra, HAL's designer is a pathetic collage. He dresses like a hacker and plays the part of Jane Goodall. Had we heard one more time about "silicon life forms" we would have tossed our pop-corn right there. In conclusion: go stoned, pay half price, and leave before the last ten minutes. Sometimes anticipating "something wonderful" is better than experiencing it. Liz Sommers Ron Widman ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Dec 84 16:23 PST From: Michael Wahrman Reply-to: mike@RAND-UNIX.ARPA Subject: Spielberg's Amazing Tales The very strange story on Sf-Lovers about "Twilight Zone"'s return to the air next season makes me wonder if this isn't really a reference to Stephen Spielberg's Amazing Tales. Mr. Spielberg is executive producing this episodic television in cooperation with Universal Pictures. The series is planned to have 90 episodes. Usually series are guaranteed only a much smaller number of episodes, such as half a season, if that many. It may mean that they are interested in guaranteeing that the show will have enough episodes to go into repeats. Harlan Ellison and Ray Bradbury are reported to be working on scripts. David Gerrold said he was contacted through four different agents to suggest ideas. Several other screenwriters that I know were besides themselves with excitement... this is the best thing to hit television for years if you are a fantasy/horror/sf writer. So this is why I was surprised to also hear about a Twilight Zone series. Maybe NBC is responding to Amazing Tales? Maybe the name got changed to Twilight Zone (... rises from the dead?). Or maybe the story was just reported wrong and should have said "... a Twilight Zone-like series". Michael Wahrman arpa: mike@rand-unix.arpa uucp: ucbvax!randvax!mike decvax!randvax!mike ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Dec 84 8:43:58 EST From: Craig MacFarlane Subject: star trek In original query about 3D chess on Star Trek I asked about rules of movement(ie. different levels, attack boards...). I have the star fleet technical manual(and medical), but it doesn't tell you about moving pieces on or off the attack boards or to other levels. Actually it isn't just 3 level chess because the attack boards are half levels and can be move under the bottom and above the top. I would expect this game to be much less complex than it appears; there aren't as many squares open to all pieces. The attack boards use up a total of 16 squares. [raig cmacfarlane@bbnccj 617-497-2972 PS. "The Courtmartial" is the only show I can remember that has Spock playing it in the forground... ------------------------------ Date: Fri 7 Dec 84 00:32:34-EST From: Michael Rubin Subject: Re: terminator and time travel I don't know where I heard this theory of time travel -- it may have even been on SF-Lovers last year -- but it goes something like: Nature abhors a time paradox even more than she abhors a vacuum. All time paradoxes will be resolved so as to cause the nonexistence of whomever created them. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 13-Dec SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #220 Date: 13 Dec 84 0925-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #220 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 13 Dec 84 0925-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #220 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 13 Dec 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 220 Today's Topics: Books - Attanasio (3 msgs) & Bradbury & Bradley & Vinge, Films - Supergirl & Starman & 2010 & Dune (2 msgs), Radio - Lord of the Rings ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Dec 84 09:33:40 PST (Wednesday) From: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: A.A. Attanasio - new author Cc: finnegan@UCI-ICSC.ARPA >>This is his first book... Are you sure A.A. Attanasio is a man? "He" may well be, but for some reason my first impression was that the author was a woman. Even if the L.A. Times reviewer used the male pronoun, I would still have my doubts: we all know the story about the reviewer who INSISTED that Andre Norton was a man (or was it James Tiptree Jr.?)! Perry ------------------------------ From: mcb%lll-tis.arpa@lll-tis (Michael C. Berch) Date: Wed Dec 12 21:47:42 1984 Subject: Attanasio's RADIX > Patterns of fire circled him - the stars: emblems of all > directions, the intersections of never and always. In the > star-patterns he saw the origin: light, the ardor and > selfishness of It, the chthonic journey, descanting into > geometry, echoing across the shell of time as language: > mesons talking atoms into being, molecular communities > communicating, no end to It, on addition, time, the > futureless deception, until the final addition, the mindfire > of consciousness that burns through the drug of dreams and > anneals the pain of living with the living pain. -- From RADIX by A.T. Attanasio, as quoted in this digest Come on now! Are you seriously suggesting that a sane reader could get through 300+ pages of the above? Maybe the quote is out of context (though what context such a quote could exist in is another matter entirely), but I hope that this does not signal sf's imminent return to the era of purple prose... Michael C. Berch mcb@lll-tis.ARPA ...ucbvax!lbl-csam!lll-tis!mcb ------------------------------ Date: 12 Dec 84 20:27:04 PST (Wed) To: Caro.PA@xerox Subject: Re: A.A. Attanasio - new author From: Greg Finnegan Well, the back cover of the book had a picture of a man (I hope). -- Greg ------------------------------ Date: 12 Dec 84 09:51:34 PST (Wednesday) From: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: Gernsback and Ghettoization To: eyal%wisdom.bitnet@WISCVM.ARPA Eyal, I found that your message pulled together many of the random observations I have had about science and mainstream fiction. Bravo! However, I cannot accept the categorization of the fiction of Ray Bradbury as "malevolent and pessimistic, and ... unscientific." I agree that some of the fiction that Ray Bradbury wrote is NOT science fiction -- but that doesn't mean that it is unscientific (eg. half of the Martian Chronicles, "The Illustrated Man," etc.). He also wrote science fiction that was scientific: "Fahrenheit 451" is a pretty darn good science fiction novel! Some of Bradbury's work is gloom and doom, but certainly not all of it. "Something Wicked This Way Comes" was one of the most uplifting novels I have ever read! Malevolent? Do you refer to characters or the attitude of the author? I simply can't imagine Bradbury himself as malevolent, and I see nothing wrong with having malevolent characters (neither does Bradbury, it would seem, since he has a knack for creating them!) An old time Bradbury fan (couldn't you tell?) Perry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Dec 84 17:02 EST From: Purtill@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: Darkover Actually, The Spell Sword is a direct prequel to The Forbidden Tower, and is not set in the age of chaos. The Bloody Sun concerns, I think, the grandchildren of the characters in those two books. However, it was written rather early in the series and hence doesn't fit in with the later books too well. Basicly, Bradley's view of Darkover changed as she went along, so that it might be better to think of a bunch of nearly identical "parallel" Darkovers (like parallel earths) rather than just one. (I think she even wrote something of the sort in an introduction to some edition of one of the books.) This change is at least part of the reason why Sword of Aldones was rewritten as Sharra's Exile. The prequel to them (either? both?), Heritage of Hastur, which is relatively recent, wasn't terribly consistent with Sword of Aldones (which was either the first or the second written). As to reading order, I would suggest reading the more recently written books first, as they tend to be better. (The later ones are put out by DAW, while the earlier are from ACE). Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 84 14:19:13 PST From: Gremban.pa@XEROX.ARPA Subject: "True Names", a story about a worldnet A great story I read just recently involving a worldnet is "True Names" by Vernor Vinge. WARNING: this short review is a mini-spoiler, though what I'll describe is developed in the first several pages of this novelette. The story begins in the near future when most computers are linked in a worldwide network, and a direct I/O device to the nervous sytem has been developed. With this I/O device, computer wizards are able to enter and (for short periods of time) live in the computing network as in an alternate reality. There have grown up groups of pirates who use witchcraft lore to get around in the computing world, and band together on the computing plane in covens. These pirates know each other by their assumed (computed) bodies and names, and protect their true names as thoroughly as any witch or warlock did in the past -- for to know someone's true identity is to have complete power over him. The story is about how the protagonist, 'Slippery', who is one of these warlocks, handles the threat posed by another, who is bent on taking over the whole world via the computer network. The story is far more engrossing than may be represented by this thumbnail sketch. A large part of the story is spent developing the idea of the alternate computing reality and how one gets around in it. Despite a few difficulties, this development is excellent, and it created for me a believable and exciting environment that I got involved in. The suspense grows through the story, as the main characters also grow. The weakest part of "True Names" may be its ending, which is satisfactory but a letdown after the high intensity reached earlier in the story. In conclusion, I found this story exciting and thought-provoking, and I would recommend it to anyone interested in interactive computing and computer networking. Much of its depth, however, may be lost to people unfamiliar with computing. Unfortunately, although it was published only 3 years ago, it seems to be already out of print. Ron ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 12 Dec 1984 05:48:36-PST From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (From the terminal of Brendan E. From: Boelke) Subject: Supergirl >Date: Fri 7 Dec 84 14:43:30-PST >From: Bruce >Subject: Re: /Supergirl/ (V9 #215) >For example, if Supergirl can so easily visit us, why don't all the >people from Argo City do this...? If you recall, Supergirl left the city in a ship designed and build by whatshisname. When he told the other citizens of the city that he intended to go to Earth, or maybe Saturn (?Jupiter?Venus??) in it, they looked about ready to commit him. /BEB ------------------------------ Date: 12 Dec 84 12:31:02 EST From: STILLMAN.SHERMAN@RUTGERS.ARPA Subject: Starman ===> In a word, *TRASH* How anyone with any taste at all can enjoy this film is beyond reason... the film is incredibly *BAD*, and does not provide ANY sense of wonder. It does provoke much thought regarding how or why it was ever made, however. It is an amateurish attempt to cash in on the same themes which Spielberg has utilized so well, but it never even begins to come close. An embarrassing script has made two competent actors look like they had just gotten their brains removed for fun. Carpenter directs this mess like it was an inferior episode of "The Dukes of Hazard;" the film cries out for a new rating system such as PGV (Parental Guidance, Vomiting suggested). On the other hand, if you have a retarded six year old lying about, bring him to see it. Maybe Carpenter is aiming for a very select audience these days. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 84 11:38:16 CST From: Mike Caplinger Subject: 2010 After the two messages in V2 #219, I feel like I may be in the minority, but... I liked the book. I didn't like the movie as much. I agree that the political statements were incredibly heavy-handed. The tone of the book, particularly the comraderie among the Leonov's crew, is almost entirely gone; a big loss. HAL, I thought, was as good as ever. Clarke has realized since 2001 that AI is not likely to produce a real intelligence soon, only a mimic. Note in the book that when Chandra and SAL speak, Clarke points out that SAL understands only a little of what's going on. As Bowman says in 2001 the movie, "Of course, he's programmed that way to make it easier for use to talk to him." HAL remains to my mind a great SF computer. And I liked Chandra as well. Not the Indian ascetic of the book, more a basement hacker type. I found him easy to identify with. The special effects range from being mediocre (most of the model work) to spectacular (crossing over to Discovery, most of the Jupiter animation). Ironically, in most respects 2001 had better special effects. The computer screens in 2010, for example, seem to be TRS-80s with scrolling garbage. The real loss in translation from book to film comes with the parts from Bowman's point of view. This is, to my mind, the best part of the book. The movie couldn't figure out how to show it, so they left it out. Introspection is hard to film, particularly if the introspector isn't corporeal. In short, 2010 is a flawed work, but it has its moments. Mike Caplinger ------------------------------ Date: 11 Dec 84 13:51:42 PST From: Pavel.pa@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Review of DUNE, via the comic book (*Spoilers*) I can't stand it any longer; the hopeful comments in V9 #216 about how fantastic DUNE the movie will be touched me so much that it has finally stirred me out of my usual procrastination enough to tell what I know. About two weeks ago, the Marvel Comics Official Adaptation of the DUNE Movie arrived in my local comic book store. Since it only cost $2.50 and was drawn by one of my favorite artists, I figured I would buy it and find out what the movie was going to be like. It has been my experience that much of the feel of a movie and essentially all of the plot can be garnered from these comics adaptations. A measure of their loyalty to the screenplay can be found in the lack of a credit for author; Marvel didn't get to write anything! In any case, here's the review: Micro-Review: Barf! Mini-Review: Ugh, Blech, pitooey! Several orders of magnitude worse than the worst I could have imagined. Mainframe-Review: DUNE the movie as adapted for comics is as awful a piece of trash as I have seen in recent memory. Every piece of subtlety, complexity or humanity that I could remember from the book has been ruthlessly cut out, every event in the book has been reduced to its most sensationalist aspect and every secret and surprise blandly spoiled through resequencing. Examples of all of these are altogether too easy to come by: We discover in the very opening scene that the Emperor is plotting the downfall of everyone. By the time we first meet the Atreides, we already know that one of their household was planted there as a traitor. The Baron Harkonnen is not an excessively fat man whose bulk is somewhat supported by suspensors. No, no, instead we have a slightly overweight man with incredible acne who seems to have an antigravity belt which allows him to fly all over the set and hover above people to intimidate them. He also lives on a world which looks like a conscious attempt to drown in industrial waste; in fact, we even get to see him enjoying his favorite activity: being sprayed with the filth from the surface. Since audiences are well known to love fight scenes, they have been spared the majority of the plot between such things; every thing is rushed except the fights, which are drawn out, overdone and more numerous than in the book. The most outrageous thing in the whole charade, however, is the ending; how can you take anything as a serious adaptation of DUNE the book when it ends with a great, planet-covering rainstorm and beautiful, touching and shallow rainbow?! In summary, this looks like the idiotic, sensationalist, exploitive piece of garbage that I had expected from an endeavor run by a DiLaurentis and praised by Frank Herbert. I'd only be disgusted if this were just some random sci-fi movie, but as it is I'm angry and resentful; now we'll never get to see a movie of the book we loved. Pavel Curtis Pavel.pa@Xerox ...!decvax!cornell!pavel ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Dec 84 10:11 EST From: Jonathan Ostrowsky Subject: Dune preview SF-LOVERS scoops the world on this one -- the Boston press preview isn't even until tonight. A friend saw it last night at midnight at Copley Place (70MM, Dolby); the guy teaching my friend's film class is a projectionist there, and screened it for his students. Anyway, both my friend and his teacher thought the film was atrocious. Comments as I remember them: * The movie drowns itself in self-consciousness and pretension. Nothing significant happens that isn't accompanied by portentous music. Points are made and remade until they're painfully obvious. * The script is terrible. It would have been impossible for David Lynch (the director) to salvage the film, given such a script. * Interaction between characters is minimal; no one speaks more than a few lines to anyone else at any time. This is caused partly by the conceit of having characters think out loud. * The plot is rarely advanced by dialogue or action, but mostly by these spoken thoughts. * Many characters (such as Max von Sydow's and Linda Hunt's) appear on screen just long enough to think something. * Some of the effects (such as riding the sandworms) are very poorly done. One man's opinion; you might love it. ------------------------------ Date: Wed 12 Dec 84 11:50:56-PST From: DCOHEN%ECLD@ECLA Subject: NPR's Lord of the Rings I'll admit it was clumsy, but I somehow managed to erase my recording of the fourth episode of National Public Radio's Presentation of The Lord of the Rings, currently being presented to the Los Angeles listening community. Obviously this is bad enough, but it is worse -- there are several children somewhere else depending on me for a complete set of these tapes. Is there some kind hearted soul out there who will send me a copy of this episode? Blank tape by return mail and copious thank yous... David A. Cohen Computing Information Services, Jef 102 University of Southern California University Park Los Angeles, California 90089-1291 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 14-Dec SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #221 Date: 14 Dec 84 1228-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #221 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 14 Dec 84 1228-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #221 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 14 Dec 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 221 Today's Topics: Books - Bishop & Padgett & Powers (2 msgs) & Robinson & The Flying Sorceror & Conundrum Answered, Miscellaneous - Who's Got Rosebud & Time Travel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 12 Dec 84 06:33:47 MST From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley) Subject: Michael Bishop's WHO MADE STEVIE CRYE? Michael Bishop is not known for being a horror writer, but he has managed to produce (according to the blurb) 'a blood curdling novel of satanism, illicit lust and supernatural horror' called WHO MADE STEVIE CRYE? (Arkham House, 1984; 309 pp.). Some blurbs leave more unsaid than others, and while this blurb is accurate in what it says, it is so incomplete and misleading as to be virtually useless in telling you why you should read this book. And you should read this book -- I think it's definitely the best novel Bishop has produced to date. Stevenson Crye is a woman in her thirties whose husband has died and left her to support their two children. Stevie earns a meager living by free-lancing articles for newspapers and magazines in the area around her home town in Georgia. One day her fancy daisy-wheel electric typewriter breaks down; when she learns that it will cost $52 to replace the cable on her ribbon carrier, plus $23 for a service call if she won't make the 80 mile round trip to the service center, she screams in fury and frustration. A friend suggests a tiny shop in a nearby town that will fix it for $10.67, so she decides to give it a try (bad news, as any horror fan can tell you). The young man who 'fixes' her typewriter bears a remarkable resemblance to John Hinckley... When Stevie brings the typewriter home, she discovers that it is possessed: it will type out things that no one ever typed into it. Its taste in subject matter runs to gruesome nightmares, nightmares that Stevie begins to experience in her sleep and then even when she's awake... Has her typewriter been taken over by the ghost of her husband Ted? Are demons from hell trying to destroy her mind? Has the psychopathic typewriter repairman installed an RS-232 interface? 'Stop!' she commanded the machine. The Exceleriter paused briefly, paragraphed, and rattled off another two lines of type. Then it stopped. That the runaway Exceleriter had obeyed her impulsive command Stevie found amazing. Why should it listen to her? If it chose to obey, it did so primarily to demonstrate the paradox that IT was in control. Its halting on her rattled say-so only served to heighten her feelings of inadequacy and victimization. ... Shivering, Stevie approached her desk. She removed the taped pages from the typewriter to see what it had written. ... This chapter -- if you could call it a chapter -- ended rather abruptly. Its final words were: '"Stop!" she commanded the machine. 'The Exceleriter paused briefly, paragraphed, and rattled off another two lines of type. Then it stopped.' If you guessed that this book is somewhat less than serious about partaking of the horror genre, you're quite right. (Actually when I finished STEVIE I was laughing so hard my lungs hurt.) Bishop's writing has more in common with Gene Wolfe and Philip Dick than with Stephen King, and the book abounds in nice touches. The characters are well drawn and consistent, especially Stevie, a woman totally out of sympathy with the stereotypically tearful and danger-prone virgins who populate more ordinary horror novels. This Arkham edition is illustrated by J K Potter with large numbers of wonderfully revolting 'photographs', and has an amusing jacket by Glennray Tutor; not a bad deal for $15.95. I remember with fondness a short story called 'Built Up Logically' (which I believe had a companion piece called (naturally) 'Built Down Logically'; I've lost my copies, can anyone tell me where to find these stories?) -- if you liked that story, you'll really like WHO MADE STEVIE CRYE?. I know, I know, look it up in the Library of Babel, Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ Date: 11 Dec 84 14:23:30 PST (Tuesday) Subject: Re: The Fairy Chessmen From: Don Woods This story has been on my wish-list for over a decade (my father remembers it and recommended it to me), but I've never been able to find it. That's for the extra title pointer (Tomorrow and Tomorrow); I'm also told that TFC has appeared under the title "Chessboard Planet". Fairy chess is (I thought) a well-known term that describes any variation on the "standard" rules of chess. E.g., different shaped boards, 3-D chess, different pieces (one of my favorites is the "edgehog", which moves like a queen but must either start or end each move on the edge of the board), different goals (if you can capture you must; first player to lose all his pieces wins), etc. Dover Publications once put out a good book on the subject. -- Don. ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 11 Dec 1984 23:27:40-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Jerry Boyajian) Subject: re: Timothy Powers > From: John_Mellby > Dinner at Deviant's Palace -- Tim Powers > > Tim Power's third (fourth?) book is just out. DINNER AT DEVIANT'S PALACE is neither Tim Powers' third book nor fourth book; it's his fifth. His five books so far are: THE SKIES DISCROWNED (Laser Books, 1976) EPITAPH IN RUST (Laser Books, 1976) THE DRAWING OF THE DARK (Del Rey Books, 1979) THE ANUBIS GATES (Ace Books, 1983) DINNER AT DEVIANT'S PALACE (Ace Books, 1984) A lot of people used to knock Laser Books, but they published some rather interesting stuff. Aside from Powers' first two novels, they published Jerry Pournelle's first two novels, as well as some solid --- though admittedly not outstanding --- books by, among others, J. Hunter Holly, J. F. Bone, Gordon Eklund, Raymond F. Jones, and R. Faraday Nelson. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: Wed 12 Dec 84 11:14:26-PST From: Laurence R Brothers Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #219 Well, I must say that I don't like most of Tim Powers' writing. From the rave reviews I have read I got the idea I should, so I have so far read Drawing of the Dark, The Anubis Gates, and Dinner At Deviants' Palace, and not liked any of them. I'm not quite sure why, because for each of the bad points I can identify in any of these books I have liked other books with just these failings. For example in Dinner we have a Philip K Dick-esque work with a plot and premise that just doesn't stand up to criticism. However, a lot of Dick's work was like that, but it didn't faze me. Maybe I just couldn't suspend my disbelief high enough for Powers' mobile Empire State Building to cruise under, but still... well I don't know. Anyone else out there actually dislike this stuff or am I the only one? -Laurence ------------------------------ Date: Tue 11 Dec 84 09:56:51-EST From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: Icehenge, by Kim Stanley Robinson ICEHENGE is the latest book by Kim Stanley Robinson, author of The Wild Shore. In fact, the book is a revised and expanded form of two earlier stories, one from F&SF (To Leave a Mark) and one from Orbit 21 (On the North Pole of Pluto) As the blurb will tell you, the title refers to a large artifact discovered on the planet Pluto, that seems to be of human origin. Micro Review: I liked the book a lot - more than The Wild Shore - and am about to read it again. Review **** Mild Spoiler **** The book is constructed as three sections, each told from the viewpoint of a different person. As in traditional SF, there are some problems to be solved. By the end of the book, these problems are solved, in the sense that the protagonists have reached answers satisfactory TO THEM. Unlike traditional SF, the author does not give us a pretend "external reality", so it is a moot point whether the answers believed in by the characters are the "right" answers. It seemed to me that the Icehenge artifact was not the main problem; it is however a symbol associated with the main problem. Also, there is some political action in the book, far more realistic than that in books like Against Night or The Moon is a Harsh Mistress (ie, the good guys lose), but that also is not the main plot. The basic issue, I believe, is the issue of longevity. In the book, people live for many centuries, but their ability to remember their own past has not increased correspondingly. Several of the characters are archeologists, but have perhaps more trouble reconstructing their own early life than in reconstructing tangible ruins. The author uses several plot devices to create in the reader's mind uncertainty about the truth of anything expressed in the past tense. Well worth reading Robert Firth ------------------------------ Date: Thu 13 Dec 84 01:16:18-EST From: Peter G. Trei Subject: The Flying Sorcerors (Yngvi subtopic) I think I may have uncovered some evidence in the 'yngvi mystery'. The following appeared in the FANCYCLOPEDIA II, a mimeographed fan publication copyrighted in 1959. It was produced by Richard Eney, with a raft of advisors and assistants, and based on the FANCYCLOPEDIA produced earlier by Jack Speer. The following quotation appears entirely without permission. (deleted) So there you have it, filled with references to a bygone era of fandom, with disputes, personalities, and fanspeak which seems as strange to us today as modern fanspeak seems to todays mundanes. Peter Trei oc.trei@cu20b.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 13 Dec 84 13:57:35 EST From: JoSH Subject: Conundrum As correctly guessed by KLH@MC, the SF classic is World of Null-A, by A.E.van Vogt. This novel, which first appeared (in Astounding) in 1945, was almost solely responsible for the subsequent fad in learned circles for General Semantics. The title of the book refers to a planet, which is the home of a "chosen people", who are somehow different, somehow better, than the average person selected at random elsewhere. "The World of Null-A" is Venus, colonized exclusively by "integrated" (null-A) people. The planet is threatened by an evil galactic empire. The story revolves around a hero who saves it, with the help of the special people of course, from the evil empire's dastardly aims. The hero is Gilbert Gosseyn. As the story opens, our hero is about to be tested by someone immensely older and wiser than he is. This someone seems to be part of a secretive force which has, and will continue to, manipulate the hero to get him into the critical situations to come. Gosseyn is to be tested by the Games Machine, (a sentient computer). The hero is not on the special planet when this happens. Not too far into the story, however, the hero suffers a setback leaving him in an apparently hopeless situation. This actually, however, puts him with the special people, and the plot proceeds apace. He is betrayed by the daughter of the President of Earth, and is killed. All is not sweetness and light with the forces of the evil empire and its various co- and sub- conspirators. There is much action as they jockey for position with each other. etc etc etc The hero grows in powers/abilities, not only of the sort that make the special people special, but particular unique powers inherent in himself alone. Much of his struggle is to try to understand his own nature. Gosseyn is null-A-integrated -- he also has an extra piece of brain which gives him certain powers. He starts the story with a set of false memories, and spends it trying to find out who he really is. More than this would give away the plot. There are battles in which the special people perform amazingly against the supposedly superior forces of the evil empire. The book closes over the aftermath of the final battle wherein the hero has triumphed. His joy is not complete because someone supposedly very close to him, but who hasn't really showed up very much in the book, has been killed in the course of the fighting. This is part and parcel of the key to the plot, so I won't reveal it here. I reread this book and Dune recently, and was forcefully struck by the parallels. --JoSH ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Dec 84 10:26 EST From: Jonathan Ostrowsky Subject: Who's got Rosebud? In #216, Peter Reiher asked: > (Extra credit trivia question: Who currently owns Rosebud?) As I recall, it was sold to Steven Spielberg at a large auction a couple of years ago. It probably cost more than your average sled. ------------------------------ Date: Wed 12 Dec 84 12:53:03-PST From: Bruce Subject: Time Travel Theories My favorite time travel theory is: Those who alter the past are condemned to repeat it. This is from a recent issue of /Fantasy and Science Fiction/ which had the results of a competition for Science Fiction proverbs. My other favorite among the proverbs is: Global thermonuclear war means never having to say you're sorry. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 18-Dec SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #222 Date: 18 Dec 84 1136-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #222 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Dec 84 1136-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #222 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 18 Dec 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 222 Today's Topics: ****** SPECIAL ISSUE - DUNE ****** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 18 Dec 84 20:52:47 EDT From: Jaffe@RUTGERS Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!! The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the movie "Dune". People who have not yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following messages. Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) ------------------------------ From: witters@fluke.UUCP (John Witters) Subject: Dune to be shown in lousy theaters? Date: Mon, 3 Dec 84 10:42:00 MST Yesterday I saw a list of theaters Dune will be opening at. Boy, was I pissed off! Basically, Dune has been booked at the WORST theaters in Seattle. All but one are suburban multiplexes with auditoriums the size of a single bowling lane with paper thin walls between auditoriums. None of them are equipped with 70 mm equipment, and only one theater is equipped with an inferior Dolby stereo system. All the auditoriums are filthy with God nows how many years of built up popcorn and soda on the seats and floor. I stopped patronizing these places years ago. I suppose that Beverly Hills Cop will get booked at one of the Super 70mm Cinamascope theaters downtown. I have nothing against Eddie Murphy. I just can't imagine watching him in 12 channel Dolby stereo on a three story high wide screen. Is Dune getting similar treatment in other cities? I'd particularly like to hear if Dune is showing at a decent theater in Vancouver B.C. or Portland Oregon. If Dune turns out to be a good movie, I'll make a special trip to see it. Otherwise I'll wait till it comes to a decent theater in Seattle. Paul is a son of a witch.... John Witters John Fluke Mfg. Co. Inc. P.O.B. C9090 M/S 243F Everett, Washington 98204 (206) 356-5274 ------------------------------ From: ag4@pucc-h (Angus Greiswald the fourth) Subject: Dune review in Newsweek "On Campus" edition Date: Wed, 5 Dec 84 09:29:42 MST Reply-to: ihnp4!pur-ee!lewie > "Big Thud on Arrakis" > OK, everybody come on in and sit down at the table. The Christmas > turkey is here, and it's a nice big one: "Dune," ... another line of interest at the beginning of the article: > The story of a mammoth battle for liberation on the dust choked > planet Arrakis, "Dune" has been a science fiction cult favorite > since its publication in 1965. Cult favorite??? I think _Dune_ is a little more than a *cult* favorite (ok, a *lot* more than a cult favorite!). At least they didn't call it "sci-fi" (shudder) ... Anyway, here's the gist of what they say: (my additional comments in <>'s) David Lynch proves unwilling to develop the story dramatically and instead "dumps a load of text" on the viewer hoping they'll catch on. Apparently the Emperor's daughter , just shows up in the prologue to "dump" a bit of background info on the viewer and is never seen again. Even clumsier, though, is how they try to use Paul's thoughts to fill in details: picture Paul with eyebrows knitted thinking "Someone is trying to kill me. But who? And why? Does it have something to do with the spice?" Also, the noble duke comes off as being "handsome, square-jawed and about as charismatic as a side of lox." Sting, as Feyd, comes off as a "grinning psychopath" . The special effects are surprisingly tame, and Toto's soundtrack is "an ear-splitting nightmare." Here's to hoping they're dead wrong! BTW, to anyone who recently saw "Snakedance" (Dr. Who episode): don't you think the bozo who played the ruler's son (you know, the dude with the lipstick!) would make an excellant Feyd-Rautha (I think that's how you spell his name)? "Will you stand by me against the cold night, or are you afraid of the Ice?" Jeff Lewis {decvax|ucbvax|allegra|seismo|harpo|teklabs|ihnp4}!pur-ee!lewie ------------------------------ From: aam@pucc-h (Dwight McKay) Subject: Dune - Newsweek on campus? Date: Wed, 5 Dec 84 12:40:32 MST I wouldn't take the Newsweek On Campus _Dune_ review too seriously. After all, on the next page their review of _2010_ starts with: "It's nine years later and the space station Discovery..." I could of sworn Discovery was a space ship in _2001_? :-) :-) Dwight Douglas McKay, PUCC user services USENET: {decvax|harpo|ihnp4|inuxc|seismo|ucbvax}!pur-ee!Pucc-H:aam MCI Mail: paintedpony ------------------------------ From: ronin@reed.UUCP (Colon) Subject: Re: Dune to be shown in lousy theaters? Date: Fri, 7 Dec 84 05:43:26 MST > Is Dune getting similar treatment in other cities? I'd > particularly like to hear if Dune is showing at a decent theater > in Vancouver B.C. or Portland Oregon. If Dune turns out to be a > good movie, I'll make a special trip to see it. Otherwise I'll > wait till it comes to a decent theater in Seattle. Here in Portland, the sneak preview of Dune is playing at a theatre downtown called the Music Box, It isn't the greatest theatre ever built, but the sound is good and most of the movies with good sound tracks seems to play thier, (as in Amedias sp?). It will open here on the 14th, the same as in Seattle. Another thing, Don't bother waiting, It will be great. I must have listened to the sound track 15 times and will enjoy it again before I see the movie. Don't let the fact that Toto did the soundtrack fool you, this is not something you would compare to a rock album. Have a nice drive and enjoy... The Begining is a very special time... Miguel Colon (cologne) Reed College Box 1177 !reed!ronin ------------------------------ From: wanttaja@ssc-vax.UUCP (Ronald J Wanttaja) Subject: Interview with Herbert in Seattle Date: Wed, 12 Dec 84 00:50:49 MST One of the local TV stations had an interview with Frank Herbert at a benefit showing of Dune. Here are some quotes which might be of interest: "It's as close to the book as a movie can get." "Several of my books are under consideration, and I may direct one of them." ------------------------------ Date: Sat 15 Dec 84 10:08:42-PST From: Bill Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #221 I joined a group of friends yesterday and went to the opening of Dune at a local theatre. We all have read the books, and, unanimously felt that Dune as a movie was *great*. The film is intense, and, the few slowly moving FXs were appreciated breaks in the action. I personally prefer this film to its Star Wars counterparts. Bill ------------------------------ From: JANSSEN.RX@XEROX.ARPA Date: 17 Dec 84 5:08:14 EST Subject: DUNE FILM REVIEW GERMAN TV Preview of DUNE on German Tv. Last sunday evening (16 dec) a review was shown on Dune with an interview with Herbert. The focus in the interview lay on two items. 1. Earth is a limited planet with limited resources. Herbert wants to warn us with his writing what can happen if we use these resources to rapidly. 2. Herbert warns us for following a godlike leader like Paul Muad'dib. He quotes Franklin D. Roosevelt that dragged you lot into WW-II. John F. Kennedy who left you with the Vietnam-syndrome and off-course Adolf Hitler who's 'leadership' destroyed Germany. I was surprised that Frank Herbert was so involved. From the other side it disappointed me that he used such a commonplace to explain why he writes. Here in Holland we call that to "break through an open door" Anyway the scenes they showed from the film looked indeed very promising. I am looking forward to it. Paul Janssen JANSSEN.RX@XEROX.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 17 Dec 1984 05:20:51-PST From: soule%rainbw.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Marc Soule) Subject: STARMAN and DUNE > SF-Lovers Volume 9 : Issue 220 > Subject: Starman ===> In a word, *TRASH* I caught Siskel & Ebert's AT THE MOVIES last Friday (CBS in Boston, 11:30pm). They loved this film. DUNE on the other hand, came within a whisker of becoming the "skunk of the week." After watching DUNE pumped up here for the past year, and then reading the reviews later in this digest, I'm afraid that I am going to be disappointed. I guess I will have to go to both films just to see for myself. ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 17 Dec 1984 10:11:04-PST From: butenhof%orac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Those who can't do, emulate) Subject: DUNE DUNE Well, like most everyone else, I went to see it. If you don't like spoilers, and are one of the odd people in this forum who haven't seen it yet, and plan to, don't read this! It's not bad. It's not too good, either. On a scale of accuracy to a book of colossal popularity and eternal fan-following, I'd say it's quite a bit better than what Greystroke did to Tarzan; but it could have been improved substantially without too much work. Necessarily, and excusably, most of the subplots were left out. This is the straight main-line action. There simply isn't time in a movie. Much of the main line was compressed. Very little was rearranged or severely modified (until the end, anyway). The effects are good. Except they were a bit too much into blood for my tastes. The acting was reasonably good, except for Paul and Feyd, who were excellent, and the Baron, who reminded me most of Hackman's Lex Luthor in the first Superman movie: he did all the requisite evil things, but never really convinced me that his heart was in it. There were minor (not excusable, but overlook-able) changes. The Atreides troops (and the Fedaykin) fought with Atreides-patented "wierding units" which convert the fighter's voice into a sort of sonic beam, which can stun, cut, cause-to-flame, break rock, etc. I watched in hopeless terror that they would use these at the end when Paul confronted the Rev. Mother and learned to "use his Voice as a weapon" -- luckily, they did not, and so I recommend simply ignoring these minor perversions. The Baron wasn't fat enough, cultivated ugly facial infections, flew around on his suspensors, wallowed in muck, and liked to pull a person's "heart plug" and cuddle as the person died. I didn't find him very impressive. I wish his personality had been done better -- whether the fault is in acting, writing, or directing, I couldn't say. He held up his end of the plot in a satisfactory manner, however, so he can be overlooked as well. In fact, for those purists who have complained that the Baron flies, I should point out that he does in the book as well, if only momentarily as he dies (re-read that section, if you doubt). The major failing of the movie; the one totally inexcusable, unforgivable, and fatally damning failing, takes place at the very end. For after felling Feyd and cowing the Rev. Mother with his Voice, Paul decides that it's time for some rain. The movie ends with the Freman troops yelling and dashing about while getting drenched from above with some good heavy Ark weather. /dave ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 84 20:53 CDT From: John_Mellby Subject: DUNE! See it! DUNE! Micro-Review: If you're into action, spectaculars, or weird characters, see Dune. If you like sensitivity or characterizations, you will be disappointed. I have read Dune more times than I can count and this proved a detriment. Every time I saw a 30 second scene, I could see the 40 pages in the book that were behind that scene. The movie seemed quite shallow to me. On the other hand they did a remarkable job of conveying the entire content of the book in 2.4 hrs. They hit every major point, and made the audience understand what was going on (with the exception of some professional movie critics). The thing which was lost in the movie was the characters. Most of them seemed to have little motivation. Paul met Chani, she threatened him with a knife and they were lovers, as quick as that. Jessica, Paul's mother, did almost nothing in the whole movie. Only in one scene did Jessica show any presence, when they were captured by the Fremen she took the leader captive barehanded. There was little or no explanation for how she had this power and it was not used later. Despite this loss, the movie was still good. I was with a friend who had never read the book and afterward he complained about all the people who said the book was so good. "I would have enjoyed it more if all those people hadn't told me the movie could never match the book." So the movie obviously does reach some who haven't read the book, especially if they want an impressive, action picture. The stupid rain at the end was far to Biblical, but other than that this was worth seeing. Following is the review sent locally by a friend whose name is excluded to same him possible embarrassment. Excuse the language, but this is verbatim. From: LVVAX1::PANZER 17-DEC-1984 19:25 To: @HH.DIS Subj: MORE DUNE I've about had it with all the movie vs book dialog on the subject of DUNE. I saw the movie but did NOT read the book. I feel slighted. I felt like I was not supposed to like the movie because it wasn't going to live up to the blasted book! Screw the damn book. I was not lost in the characters or places. The movie had an excellent main plot with a number of interesting sub-plots. The acting was comparable to most of the other fantasy movies. The scenes stirred my imagination on wondering what it would be like to be in that world. The ending did not wrap up all the ends as well as the book supposedly does, but I can live with that. If you want to see a pretty good fantasy movie, GO SEE DUNE, and tell all the book people to take a flying leap a rolling doughnut. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 18-Dec SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #223 Date: 18 Dec 84 1156-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #223 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Dec 84 1156-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #223 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 18 Dec 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 223 Today's Topics: Books - Ellison & Smith & Wolfe & Gernsback (2 msgs) & Collector's Editions (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Organ Banks ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: muffy@lll-crg.ARPA (Muffy Barkocy) Subject: Re: Ellison & Smith Date: Sat, 1 Dec 84 12:10:56 MST I was never in the closet about liking Harlan Ellison. I went to Westercon this year only because he was the guest of honor, and it was well worth it. On the same subject, a new edition/version of "From the Land of Fear" is supposed to appear soon, if it hasn't already. There is also a new book running around, "Sleepless Nights In the Procrustean Bed," a collection of his essays. Some of them I have seen before in other books, many are new. I often enjoy his essays even more than I do his stories, and I think the book is well worth reading. ------------------------------ From: muffy@lll-crg.ARPA (Muffy Barkocy) Subject: Re: Ellison & Smith Date: Sat, 1 Dec 84 12:10:56 MST I was wondering if anyone around here had read anything by L. Neil Smith (no, *besides* the "Lando Calrissian" books). I have read all five of his books (I don't count the ones mentioned above). One that I would recommend is "Their Majesties' Bucketeers," which is basically a detective novel, even a Sherlock Holmes-type, except for a couple of things: 1) The detective doesn't know how to detect, but he's learning. 2) The detective, his sidekick, the murderer, the murdered, and, in fact, all of the people in the book are aliens. They are built on the base of three. Brain divided into thirds, three eyes, three limbs, each divided into three more, three sexes, etc. There is a nice picture of what they look like on the cover of the book. ------------------------------ From: robertsl@stolaf.UUCP (Laurence C. Roberts) Subject: Gene Wolfe - some spoilers Date: Fri, 7 Dec 84 22:09:29 MST I've enjoyed the recent discussions of Gene Wolfe's _Book_of_the_New_Sun_. I've read ( and re-read) this and a fair ammount of Wolfe's other work. Has anyone out there read _The_Fifth_Head_of_Cerberus_? Has anyone read both that book and Silverberg's _Lord_Valentine's_Castle_? Did it seem to you as if LVC lifted certain concepts from Fifth Head - note the similarity of the Annese to Silverberg's Metamorphs, and the underlying theme in both books of metamorphasis - in Fifth Head from generation to generation of clones (#5) and from VRT to Marsch , and in LVC from the old Valentine to the new. And, although I'm no Heinlein fan, what about Michael Valentine Smith's Castle? Well, perhaps I'm paranoid. Is it possible that there never was a Marsch in the first place, that VRT made him up? I haven't re-read the book since I heard this hypothesis, but even if there aren't any contradictions to it, it sounds kind of shaky. Of course, you've probably noticed the marsch-men pun in "A Story" . Then again, how about March's green eyes? Was there a handwriting change in the journals in part 3? One analysis I read mentions that scenery in "A Story" also appears in "VRT" (part 3). I never noticed this before - I'll have to watch next time. Now a few New Sun things... What about the second time the Green Man was supposed to save Severian's life? Has anyone heard when _The_Urth_of_the_New_ _Sun_ is coming out? What is _The_Wolfe_Archipeligo_? Does anyone out there read Thomas Disch or Somtow Sucharitkul? They are both marvelously literate authors. What's your opinion of Wolfe and Disch (among others) publishing unaffordable collectors editions that you'd be afraid to read for fear of damaging them, even if you could afford them... I'm not even talking about $18 hardbacks ( although those are bad enough ) . I'm complaining about $100 books, and somewhat about Disch's booklets like _Ringtime_ for Toothpaste Press... Opinions? Laurence Roberts ihnp4!stolaf!robertsl "Ifrit first you don't succeed, fly, fly a djinn!" ------------------------------ From: srk@ihuxl.UUCP (S R Krause) Subject: Re: Hugo Gernsback Date: Mon, 3 Dec 84 17:16:41 MST One possible reason that the HUGO awards honor Hugo Gernsback is related to the World Science Fiction Society. The same authors that were published in Amazing Stories, and the readers of such publications are typically the people that went to the WorldCons. The fact that people liked the idea of special recognition for their favorite stories is not surprising. It is debatable that the pulp magazines were detrimental to the field. I started reading science fiction very early; much earlier than I would have read anything more demanding. I read the Tom Swift Jr series rather than the Hardy Boys. Although these books may not be great literature I enjoyed them at the time. The same goes for the Science fiction magazines. They offered an avenue for both the reader and the writer to explore many different realities. I would feel deprived if I had to wait for a similar story in the "high class" magazines. This is not to say that all the stories are worth reading but my inclination is choose from many rather than wait for a few good ones. Who would decide if they are good anyway? My values are definitely not the same as the New York critics. I for one am glad to have the Hugo awards. Beside the obvious incentive for authors, the list of Hugo nominations is usually an excellent reading list. ------------------------------ From: ecl@ahuta.UUCP (e.leeper) Subject: Re: Hugo Gernsback Date: Tue, 4 Dec 84 20:11:07 MST Hugo Gernsback A counter-editorial by Mark R. Leeper Last week Evelyn published an editorial suggesting that Hugo Gernsback has had a negative effect on the field of science fiction. In the guise of the "loyal opposition" I would like to disagree. Her argument is two-fold. First, it is that he was an incompetent writer and second, that by creating separate science fiction magazines, he pulled science fiction out of the mainstream and made it a separate genre that the critics could ignore. On the first charge I have to admit that Evelyn is right, but Gernsback is guilty with mitigating circumstances. People like Wells and Verne were writing for a fiction-reading audience and were putting new twists on fiction writing when they wrote what we call science fiction. Gernsback was a science writer. He started with science articles about the present, went on to scientific speculation about the future, and then as twists on that he started putting characters in, and writing his articles as stories. He was writing the literary equivalent of a World's Fair exhibit showing the world of the future. These exhibits, incidentally, often create a fictional character, usually called Jimmy, and take Jimmy through a typical day. One gets to the end of such an exhibit with some dubious idea of what the future may be like, but rarely does he or she get any earth-shaking insights into Jimmy's psyche. What Gernsback discovered was that just like there are long lines outside World's Fair future exhibits, there was a demand for his future fiction. Now at this time, there were maybe two or three novels written in a year about the future. Maybe one in six was any good, so every couple of years there would be a competently written book that we would consider a science fiction novel. Critics noticed this one book every couple of years and called it to the attention of their readers, many of whom had some interest in the fantastic. Gernsback recognized this interest and started devoting separate magazines to it. Readers brought writers; writers brought more readers. Suddenly readers no longer needed the critics to point out where fantastic literature was--it was right there on the magazine shelf. Critics continued to point out literature their readers might miss, but it was not science fiction because that was not hard to find. Also, the percentage of hack writers had increased with a proven demand for science fiction. They tended to give the field a bad name. Soon every science fiction magazine had its own critics reviewing science fiction books and telling which were the good. There was no need for mainstream critics to discuss science fiction at all. Now what gave science fiction a bad name were the hack writers and the demand for even hack science fiction. There was a real market for bug-eyed monster stories in magazines with bug-eyed monsters on the cover. Through all this the critics disdained the bad stuff and enjoyed the good, but there was little need to review the good because people who liked the fantastic had very apparent ways of finding the better writing. In the Fifties, celebrities, including prominent critics, would show up on the back cover of F&SF extolling the virtues of science fiction. Most high school English teachers were not well-read in science fiction and, having seen newsstands, were painfully aware that much of science fiction was bad, backed away from letting students read it for school. Now the readership of science fiction is expanding as never before. Baby-boom children who grew up on Captain Video or Captain Kirk make up a large proportion of the reading public. That means that science fiction is now creeping onto the bestseller lists. Further, there are people who do not read the science- fiction-only critics who are getting interested in the field, so mainstream critics are reviewing science fiction for them. All this might or might not have happened without Gernsback's help. He was just someone who saw a demand and made some money filling it. But by creating a dependable source of his "scientific fiction"--a magazine that showed up down at the corner drugstore once a month--he brought together the people who wanted to read science fiction and the people who wanted to write it. Once that happened, both the success of the genre and the ghetto were inevitable. The former is what Gernsback is gratefully remembered for. The latter was a temporary minor inconvenience resulting from the formation of the genre. The formation of the ghetto could have been avoided only if the supply of science fiction had remained very small. And that is too high a price to pay for a few pats on the back from mainstream critics. To blame Gernsback for the formation of the science fiction ghetto is like blaming Henry Ford for our country's dependence on petroleum. All this convinces the writing critics that there is enough interest in science fiction that their readers will want to read about the field. (Evelyn C. Leeper for) Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!lznv!mrl ------------------------------ From: ddb@mrvax.DEC (DAVID DYER-BENNET MRO1-2/L14 DTN 231-4076) Subject: Collector's editions Date: Thu, 6 Dec 84 08:05:43 MST Having a housemate who collects seriously, and knowing the perpetrators of two different small presses, I have some opinions about collectors editions to contribute in response to Laurence Roberts' query. First, they aren't generally published "by" the author, as your message seems to imply. Generally, the small press approaches the author; the author simply accepts the offer (perhaps after negotiation). More important, I think, is that a collector's edition rarely delays the appearance of a mass-market edition. Often they appear after a regular hardback is out. I do know of one case where a collectors' edition delayed publication of the paperback by (I think it's) 9 months; but that edition cost only $17, not out of range for a normal hardcover. Some of the things appearing in special editions probably won't ever appear in mass-market paper; no demand. Few authors (and I note that Gene Wolfe, in particular, went to supporting himself entirely from his writing relatively recently) will agree to a limited-profit edition if it interferes with a mass edition. On other points in that message, my memory of Fifth Head is a bit old; but I think that drawing the parallel of "transformation" between that and Lord Valentine is a bit thin. Transformation could be argued to be the theme of essentially any "literary" work (any work which features character development prominently), with about as good a case. You could make the case even more strongly, perhaps, for most of Jack Chalker's books. As someone pointed out here long ago, he puts his characters through far more than most authors. (Fire preventative: I am not commenting on character development in Chalker's works!! I am not pushing his books into the "literary" genre; more the reverse, actually.) -- David Dyer-Bennet -- {ihnp4|purdue|decvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-mrvax!ddb ------------------------------ From: barry@ames.UUCP (Kenn Barry) Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe - some spoilers Date: Thu, 6 Dec 84 14:43:18 MST > ... What's your opinion of Wolfe and Disch (among others) >publishing unaffordable collectors editions that you'd be afraid to >read for fear of damaging them, even if you could afford them... >I'm not even talking about $18 hardbacks ( although those are bad >enough ) . I'm complaining about $100 books, and somewhat about >Disch's booklets like _Ringtime_ for Toothpaste Press... Opinions? Why would you want to complain? You're not required to buy the expensive collector's editions. These books almost invariably come out in large trade editions, as well, or in paperback. The only ones that don't are those which wouldn't have a mass audience. In such cases high prices are inevitable, since you're unable to prorate the costs of publishing over a large print run. The main reasons these editions are expensive is that they are limited editions, and they (usually) are better made than trade editions. The reason they're published at all is that there are collectors who are willing to pay the high prices for them. I've paid more than $100.00 for some books, and I have no complaints. Having roasted you adequately, let me back down a bit. I *have* seen cases where there has been an unconscionably long delay between the publishing of the collector's edition, and later publishing of the trade edition. This seems to be an effort to boost sales of the expensive version by withholding the affordable copies, and I consider it a low practice. Lest the libertarians flame me, I should add that publishers have a right to do it; but I don't have to like it. - From the Crow's Nest - Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA USENET: {ihnp4,vortex,dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames!barry SOURCE: ST7891 ------------------------------ From: lkt@ukc.UUCP (L.K.Turner) Subject: Organ Banks for real ? Date: Fri, 7 Dec 84 05:41:42 MST Hey , look whats going on in net.politics :- mike writes :- ! Using unwanted adults as an organ supply has already been ! suggested. The basis is that condemned criminals would lose the ! "right" to control what happens to their body after their death, ! and all their organs would be available for transplants. The idea ! is that they just may save more lives than they destroyed. ! ! When the politicians get hold of this, it will undoubtedly ! become law. After all, the "people" can extend their lifes with ! it. It will also doom the movement to do away with the death ! penalty. Finally, you can expect the death penalty to be applied ! to steadily less severe crimes, until to many moving violations ! gets you sent to the organ banks. ! ! Isn't the will of the majority fun? ! ! Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #224 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Dec 84 1222-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #224 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 18 Dec 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 224 Today's Topics: ****** SPECIAL 2010 ISSUE - PART 1 ****** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 18 Dec 84 20:52:47 EDT From: Jaffe@RUTGERS Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!! The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the movie "2010". People who have not yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following messages. Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) ------------------------------ From: stoner@qumix.UUCP (David Stone) Subject: RE: 2010 Movie Date: Thu, 6 Dec 84 13:57:10 MST If anyone is interested the is a picture layout and a couple of good articles on '2010' in the most recent issue of OMNI magazine (November I think). stoner@qumix David A. Stone Qume Corp. San Jose,Calif. ------------------------------ From: knudsen@ihnss.UUCP Subject: Newsweek (p)review of 2010 Date: Thu, 6 Dec 84 16:56:35 MST Following its Dune review, Newsweek (the regular edition) has a short job on 2010. Their synopsis: it starts fine, goes great, good acting, great SFX, but the conclusion fizzles. Apparently the director hosed up the Clarke story a bit, by injecting fears of Nuke War on Earth any day now thanks to a reactionary US President invading Central America. (Okay, we all read the papers and some may agree with the director's point of view. But what about AC Clarke's viewpoint, such as expressed in his book? No great US-Soviet tensions in there.) I plan to see it at least twice anyway, but will be quite pissed if they muff the book's ending, which subsumes anti-war sentiments by the way. The review showed a still of an astronaut working outside with IO or Jupiter in the background -- it looked excellent. mike k PS: Want to know a movie where the concluding scenes were neither as meaningful nor as thrilling as the book? Crichton's "Terminal Man." ------------------------------ From: stonehen@ncoast.UUCP (Sammie Chan) Subject: 2010: Odyssey Two Date: Thu, 6 Dec 84 01:43:30 MST The first few paragraphs are not really that much of a spoiler but be forewarned! This review will be a big big spoiler!!! The movie 2010: Odyssey Two is only worth seeing if you have never read the book! The movie attempts to follow the book but a few "SMALL THINGS" got in the way. One of the "SMALL THINGS" is the world politics of today. The writers made the tension between US and USSR explode due to a blockade of Honduras by the US; no reason was clearly given why it happened. The movie revolve entirely around this explosion of tension, bringing around a complete break in relation between US and USSR. Due to this differences, the movie contradicts quite a bit of the book and also 2001. This movie also left out / re-written some of the book. To name the biggest omission, it is section II TSIEN. The writers had to disturb the order of the book because of this. Two of the charactors were rewritten, Dr. Heywood Floyd and Dr. Chandrasegrampillai. Heywood in the book was more of a gentlemen and fitted the image from 2001, but the movie version, he was a hardnose politican. Dr. Chandra. in the book is an Indian and introverted, but the movie showed him as a short white professor, and almost out spoken much of the time. All of the Russians' roles were off because of the world views. And there was one less Russian: Katerina Rudenko, they put either Alexander Kovalev or Nikolai Ternovsky in that role. The special effect in this movie is good but does not compare with 2001's effects. 2010's effects were short and showed things happening too fast. The ships' thrust were only to be about a tenth of a gee at maximum but the effects showed instant rocket power! Plus all of the very good zero gravity effects in 2001 were not followed up upon. They had me confused as to where on both ships is the area with gravity are located. Also of the excellent tricks with change of inertia frames found in 2001, there are none in 2010. My last note on this before the real spoiler / comparison part is that the movie is good if you don't compare with the book and is worth seeing at least once. But put everything out of you mind before you walk into the theater. The following is a detailed comparsion of the movie and the book!! Skip now or forever hold your peace!!! This movie started with a report (summary) of 2001 and then switches to Heywood cleaning one of the dish of the Arizona radio array. Ok so it wasn't the Arecibo 1000 footer, but why cleaning it?? The minute after that almost caused me to leave the theater. Dr. Dimitri Moisevitch shows up and played a cat and mouse game with Heywood in a hostile manner. (But wasn't he a best friend? and the Russian wanted to cooperate with the Americans?) The movie then followed up on the BS that goes on in Washington as Heywood tries to convince a big G official on the plans to go with Leonov. From this we learn of the increasing tension and of the new reactionary President. Ok, Ok, if that's how they want to screw it up, I can't complain about the cost of the ticket; I won it from WMMS 100.7 in Cleveland, and I am one of the first few to view it. A very touching 5 min. was of the chapter The House of the Dolphins. The movie showed what can be read and not read from this chapter, and provided a much better view of the family man Heywood. It was beter done than the phone call scene in 2001. As said before, section II TSIEN was omitted, they replaced it with a short scene. Leonov was 2 days from Jupiter and just passing Europa. A routine check indicated life is there, and a probe is sent fore to investigate. Needless to say, something repels the probe just as they begin to see what the greenish creature was. Ok the last part of the book Epilog 20001 was partially put at the start of the movie...HUH??? Were the writers afraid to hurt the new relationship with China or something??? Again...HUH??? The next section followed from the book nicely. They played up Chap. 14 Double Encounter very well. Chap. 17 boarding party was very very well done. The addition of comedy was also welcome. The special effects in this part of the movie were good, the aerobrake maneuver was nicely displayed. And the view of Discovery flipping end over end was fantasitic! Section IV Lagrange was too much over done. By this time Max and Curnow had gotten Discovery back up to working condition and Dr. C has HAL up and cooperating. It was time to meet Big Brother... They really over played the Russian Captain Orlova as the female fist of the crew. She order Max to EVA to Big Brother in (get this) one of Leonov's pods. In the book, Max was the one to see Bowman emerge from the monolith, but in the movie he gets kill as Bowman opens up space. The pod was exactly over the area of the warp.<<-- hmmmmm?! Section V A Child of the Stars was chopped up in the movie, I don't know why they omitted chap. 36, and 38. If they would have made the effects, it would have made 2010 one of the best special effect movie of '84. A few chapters like 34, 35, & 37 could not be done on screen but they don't really matter much in a movie. The other chapters of Bowman visiting his mother and Betty was done with good emotion. Even though the part with his mother on the death bed is a bit corny, it followed the book well. The meeting of Bowman and Heywood was played out for almost 10 min. A great deal of dialog was written for the movie, but it did have a favor for the book. During this time, the US and USSR had broken all relations. The American part of the crew was ordered to go to Discovery and fly her back. (??? cute) And the Russian was given the same orders. If the Americans or Russian was found on the opposite side he/she is to be arrested (??? cuter). This total deviation from the book is not in my taste at all. After Heywood got the message from Bowman, he decided to hell with the break in relations. He EVA over to Leonov and had a talk with the Captain; and the monolith disappears. This is now getting into section VI Devourer of Worlds. Needless to say the disapperance of the monolith convinced the Captain and plans were made to use Discovery as a booster. The movie then follows this section well, plus it gave some great special effects on the conversion of Jupiter by the monoliths into a sun. Most of the action here was special effects; again not too bad. The only gripe is that Leonov was not tied to Discovery, it had a docking arm which fitted the slender body of Discovery very very well. <<---again hmmm!? The final section Lucifer Rising was done with style and followed the book. The time scale between events was distorted, they shortening it. Just after Leonov was separated from Discovery, Jupiter imploded into a star, blowing Discovery away but not Leonov. I am sure that Leonov can't be going that fast to escape destruction if Discovery was destoryed. The interaction of Bowman and HAL was done as best as possible; how can one show an energy being interfacing with a computer??? One final thing that the writers did to the book was to add two lines to the last message... All of these worlds are yours - except Europa. Attempt no landings there. Use them together. Use them for peace. With this the writers hoped to tell the morale of this story, and to save all of the omissions and changes from the book. I don't agree! The ending of this movie was good. It used the end of the Epilog's favor to show that the monolith is now helping evolution on Europa just as it did for man in 2001. But I am very disappointed that they did not attempt to show what the Europians looked liked, only the green swamp land, a promise of life and maybe intelligences. Sammie Chung Yu Chan: decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!stonehen: R0176@CSUOHIO.BITNET 1611 E. 32nd St., Cleveland, Ohio 44114 (216) 696-3549 ------------------------------ From: jsgray@watmath.UUCP (Jan Gray) Subject: 2010 mini-review and mistake (spoiler) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 84 19:56:46 MST 2010 was just okay. It was faithful to the book, except that they added a silly nuclear war tension, and narration which hurt 2010 as much as it hurt Blade Runner. SPOILER WARNING! The mistake occurs when the expedition discovers why HAL killed the rest of the Discovery crew. It is revealed that the National Security Comission (a future NSA?) implanted the knowledge of the monolith into HAL (causing inner conflict and therefore malfunction in HAL) without telling Heywood Floyd. In fact he repeats "they didn't tell me" over and over again. BUT in 2001 he *did* know. Proof? After HAL was disconnected a prerecorded briefing message was displayed on a monitor, and in that briefing Heywood Floyd said: (I have this scene memorized...) "Good afternoon gentlemen. This is a prerecorded briefing made prior to your departure, which, for security reasons of the highest importance, has been known on board, during the mission, only by your H-A-L 9000 computer. Eighteen months ago the first evidence of intelligent life off the earth was discovered on the moon near the crater Tycho. Except for a single, very powerful radio emission aimed at Jupiter, the four million year old black monolith has remained completely inert. Its origin and purpose still a total mystery." So...In "2001" Floyd says that he told HAL about the monolith, and in 2010 he violently denies that he did... Jan Gray (jsgray@watmath.UUCP) University of Waterloo (519) 885-1211 x3870 ------------------------------ From: louie@umd5.UUCP Subject: 2010 review review Date: Sun, 9 Dec 84 20:21:51 MST What follows is a review of the movie "2010" reproduced here without prior permission from the Washington Post "Weekend" section. 2010: Odyssey Two Mankind's Spaced Out Again, by Jupiter By Rita Kemply In the beginning, Arthur C. Clarke created "2001: A Space Odyssey." The next 15 years, he rested. Now Peter Hyams presents the sequel to the metaphysial cliffhanger, a larger-than-life work based on Clarke's "2010: Odyssey Two," a cerebral story of second genesis. Keir Dullea returns as [sic] John Bowman, the astronaut who made contact with the Eerie Beings in the classic directed by Stanley Kubrick. And Canadian Douglas Rain reprises his role as the voice of H.A.L 9000, the computer who went mad on the original odyssey. Bowman's last transmission from the now-silent Discovery, "My God, it's full of stars," gives us the starting point in "2010." A team of Russian and American scientists takes the Soviet spacecraft Leonov to investigate the [sic] Jupiterian monoliths that turned Bowman into the big Star Baby. Is Bowman a god, the Messiah, a close relative of the Kwisatz Haderach? And what about H.A.L.? Who was behind the secret message in his circuits? Was it the CIA or IBM? And what is a higher life form anyway? They'll learn the Big Answers to the Big Questions in this chapter of the cosmic soap opera. But the revelations are equivocal, faithful to the ambiguity of the original. The major difference between films is "2010's" greater emphasis on people. The performances are all excellent, but Helen Mirren is utterly convincing as the formidable commander of the Leonov. Roy Scheider costars as the former head of the Space Agency, with John Lithgow as the [sic] engineer of Discovery and Bob Balaban as the father of H.A.L. The great Lithgow's bout with acrophobia as he crosses the void from Leonov to Discovery is one of the film's best, most human moments. Balaban's relationship with H.A.L. is also tender. (He cries.) But an attempt to warm things up by including Scheider's family and pet dolphins just slows things down. Space is slowww. And it is vast. Like the original, "2010" is a celebration of spaciousness and tomorrow's technology. But current technology has surpassed the author's imagination for now. Sometimes the crew looks out on Io or Europa and gasps as the wonder of it. But it really isn't as interesting as a live Voyager transmission. Much of the science of "2010" is questionable in the face of what we knew, know and are learning. A new star appears in the solar system and the earth escapes without a tremor. The Leonov embarks without enough fuel to either return or slow down. They do "air braking" (without air) to slow Leonov as she whips around the planet and into a new orbit. How's that for science friction. Still "2010" is a repectable production despite the disappointments. But sometimes a movie just cries out for a wise old rubber Muppet. But now, not so much as a hairy paw. [Flame on, NOVA intensity] I'm not sure what to think about a movie after a review like this. I really wonder if Rita Kempley actually saw this movie. How could someone screw up Dave Bowman's name?? John?? And Jupiterian, I would think that the simple adjective "Jovian" would do just fine. Some of the not-so-fine plot details which the movie seems to go out of its way to point out are completely missed. The Leonov doesn't depart without enough fuel. The early departure from Jupiter is makes the kludge with Discovery necessary. And "air braking" is not science fiction made up for the movie, it was even featured on the cover of Popular Science a year or so ago. I'm sure glad I was saw 2010 (on opening day, first show) before I read this review. Louis A. Mamakos Computer Science Center - Systems Programming University of Maryland, College Park Internet: louie@umd5.arpa UUCP: ..!seismo!cvl!umd5!louie ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 18-Dec SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #225 Date: 18 Dec 84 1239-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #225 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Dec 84 1239-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #225 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 18 Dec 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 225 Today's Topics: ****** SPECIAL 2010 ISSUE - PART II ****** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 18 Dec 84 20:52:47 EDT From: Jaffe@RUTGERS Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!! The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the movie "2010". People who have not yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following messages. Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) ------------------------------ From: brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) Subject: 2010 review Date: Sat, 8 Dec 84 22:00:00 MST I came into 2010 not expecting a lot. After all, 2001 had been directed by God in His Incarnation As Stanley Kubrick, but still it is a major SF movie based on a book by one of the biggest authors in the field. Anyway, it turns out that I was very pleasantly surprised. This film sticks well to the novel and captures much of its flavour. Clarke must have approved. Watch him feeding the birds in front of the White House in an early scene in the movie. There is an extra "world tension" subplot which isn't all that necessary, I guess it's to make the film more topical, but it doesn't detract a lot. All in all one of the better SF movies in a while. (Of course the last film I saw before this was Android. If Mary Schelly got a royalty for each time her story was retold, she'd make a fortune! Couldn't do a lot with it now, mind you, being dead and all, but it would be a fortune.) Anyway, the tradition of 2001 must have rubbed off on Hyams. A good (although not perfect like S. K.) attempt at depiction of realistic spaceflight. Reasonable use of music (not as good as 2001) and sfx. Balaban as HAL's creator was kinda week in my opinion. Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473 ------------------------------ From: sdyer@bbncca.ARPA (Steve Dyer) Subject: 2010 review--non spoiler Date: Sun, 9 Dec 84 23:30:39 MST 2001 was one of the few movies which was richer in allusion and subtlety than the book. Unfortunately, 2010, the movie, continues this seemingly inexorable progress towards literal-mindedness. It begins with a "computer printout" summary of what "happened" in 2001 (just the facts, ma'am) worthy of the 3 minute synopses which begin the episodes of made-for-TV mini-series extravaganzas, and proceeds with some horrendous expository dialogue for the next 40 minutes or so. The characters here don't talk to each other, they explain the background of the plot to the audience. This is static stuff, anti-cinematic really, and the director (what's his name, who cares?) does nothing to help. In fact, this movie really is TV quality: the characters are thinly drawn--non-dimensional, perhaps. The Soviets (you've all seen the plot summaries, right?) are cold war zombies, and our hero Roy Scheider knows it all, in the best US tradition. As tensions increase on earth, with a war brewing between the superpowers, things begin to "heat up" on Jupiter. "Something wonderful is about to happen!" claims a resurrected Dave Bowman, late of 2001, to Scheider. Indeed! If you gagged on "Close Encounters", you'll choke on 2010. There are a very few good scenes, especially those involving the HAL 9000 computer and Chandra, HAL's programmer, but they do not a movie make. Many people have argued that 2010 should not be judged against 2001, one of the most influential movies of all time. Perhaps it IS an unfair comparison, for 2010 is inferior in almost every respect. /Steve Dyer {decvax,linus,ima,ihnp4}!bbncca!sdyer sdyer@bbncca.ARPA ------------------------------ From: ecl@ahuta.UUCP (ecl) Subject: 2010: THE YEAR WE MAKE CONTACT Date: Sun, 9 Dec 84 08:20:59 MST 2010: THE YEAR WE MAKE CONTACT A film review by Mark R. Leeper Peter Hyams is one of the last people whom I would have expected would make a sequel to 2001. It was the a point of pride with Clarke and Kubrick that their 1968 film be as faithful to scientific fact as was possible. Hyams has played fast and loose with scientific accuracy in his two previous science fiction films, CAPRICORN ONE and OUTLAND. Hyams was to write, produce, and direct 2010 by himself. Clarke had retired to Sri Lanka and apparently could not oversee the scientific accuracy of the production. So how do the two films compare? Hyams's film by itself is a remarkable film. As an adaptation of the book, it is a real rarity. It is a pure science fiction film. That does not mean science fantasy, it does not mean science horror. It means that this is a film that takes scientific ideas and plays with them. It does so not to scare us with monsters, not to give us a western set in space, not to show us a love story that happens to take place in space. It is an extrapolation of theory and idea. The story concerns men and women making scientific discoveries, but it is primarily about the discoveries, not the people making them. By following a team of scientists as they attack scientific problems it is closer in spirit to Clarke's RENDEZVOUS WITH RAMA than it is to 2001. 2010 stands head and shoulders above anything that we could have expected from Hyams based on his previous work. But that is no surprise since Hyams merely had to be accurate to a pure science fiction book. Word has it that it is a fairly accurate representation, with a few minor liberties. As far as pacing, the second film is a considerable improvement. Hyams has made a slightly less visual film, still very visual, and picked up the pace considerably. 2001 was intended to be a showcase of the future and that means in may places the plot stops dead to show a visual effect. The new film's science is a little less accurate. As in OUTLAND, Hyams does not understand gravity, artificial and natural. With the exception of scientific errors, the worst faults of 2010 probably lie with Clarke and the novel. The film teasingly promises to give new insights into the questions raised in the first film. It then reneges on that promise. When it is over, the alien race is as much a mystery as it was in 1968. There are more theories as to what the monolith actually is, but they remain theories. Clarke's "see the movie, read the book, see the movie, read the book..." does not seem to be a sufficient answer to the questions. Now it probably is true that that is a realistic touch. The aliens probably would be unfathomable to the human mind. But to fall back on that does not make for good cinema and even makes unsatisfying science fiction. The trailers and script promise that at the end of the film "something wonderful" will happen. In fact, what happens is wondrous, but the film is very unsuccessful in conveying why it is wonderful. Most of the effect of the something wonderful appears to be that it temporarily averts a war on Earth and that there are somewhat superficial celestial events that can be seen from Earth. The full implications of the something wonderful are never explained. The impact of the something wonderful on the audience is considerably undercut by an almost identical something wonderful that happened in another popular science fiction film of the past few years. That makes the big surprise at the end something of a letdown. Production credits are all very good. Visually the film shows a number of remarkable sights without making them the static set pieces that the first film made of them. There are still a fair number of scenes of stark beauty, such as the view of the churning surface of Jupiter. I was a little sorry to see the part of Heywood Floyd went to Roy Scheider instead of the underrated William Sylvester, who played the part in the original and is a familiar face from a number of good British genre films. John Lithgow is along in large part for comic relief. Helen Mirren, familiar from THE LONG GOOD FRIDAY and EXCALIBUR, plays one of the few Russian characters not played by a member of the cast of MOSCOW ON THE HUDSON. Bob Balaban at first seems miscast as Dr. Chandra, since he has no Indian accent, but by 2010 he could be a second or third generation American. In a less than stellar year for science fiction films this is the best so far. Give it a 2 on the -4 to +4 scale. (Evelyn C. Leeper for) Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!lznv!mrl ------------------------------ From: sdyer@bbncca.ARPA (Steve Dyer) Subject: Re: 2010 review--non spoiler Date: Mon, 10 Dec 84 00:01:11 MST My editor hiccupped, and the 2010 review was ejected from its pod prematurely. Let me continue... Many people have argued that 2010 should not be judged against 2001, one of the most influential movies of all time. Perhaps it IS an unfair comparison, for 2010 is inferior in almost every respect. But, let's face the nature of sequels: their lot is to be compared against the original. Simply because so few sequels are equal or better is no reason to accept mediocrity. And, what's more, a sequel, by trading on the success of the original, bears a heavy responsibility to its audience. 2010's special effects are nothing special, mostly being of the Star Trek throw-yourself-across-the-room variety. Compare this with 2001, whose effects set a new standard (and raised one's own standards.) 2010's use of music is minimal, and certainly suffers compared with Kubrick's. It dusts off the Ligeti "Kyrie" from 2001 occasionaly when the monolith appears, but more often contents itself with pedestrian workaday movie music. But most earthbound is the vision of 2010. Compared with Kubrick's sardonic view of a soulless consumer culture of the 1960s projected into the 21st century and its salvation despite itself, and filled with inchoate, resonant symbols, 2010 contents itself with a connect-the-dots sledge-hammer message of peace and brotherhood, completely lacking in subtlety, guaranteed to incense anyone who thought highly of the first movie. /Steve Dyer {decvax,linus,ima,ihnp4}!bbncca!sdyer sdyer@bbncca.ARPA ------------------------------ From: louie@umd5.UUCP Subject: Re: 2010 review--non spoiler Date: Mon, 10 Dec 84 09:12:58 MST Reply-to: louie@umd5.UUCP (Louis Mamakos) sdyer@bbncca.ARPA (Steve Dyer) writes: >Many people have argued that 2010 should not be judged against >2001, one of the most influential movies of all time. Perhaps it >IS an unfair comparison, for 2010 is inferior in almost every >respect. Perhaps it IS unfair, but when a film is obviously a sequel to a classic, people will expect more (a lot more!) than they would out of the run of the mill film. Peter Hyams should have been aware of this. It was a little too 'blinky-light' for my taste. Just contrast the instrumentation of the Leonov with the Discovery. I agree with Steve, the opening sequence was just a too easy of a way out of explaining what happened. Despite these criticisms, I'll see 2010 one or two more times. It's not a bad movie; it just doesn't stack up to what I expected from 2001. Louis A. Mamakos Computer Science Center - Systems Programming University of Maryland, College Park Internet: louie@umd5.arpa UUCP: ..!seismo!cvl!umd5!louie ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (Jerry Boyajian) Subject: 2010 review Date: Mon, 10 Dec 84 03:58:17 MST There're two ways of looking at 2010: as its own movie and as a companion to 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY. The latter first. They say comparisons are odious, but here it's inevitable. Quite frankly, as a sequel to 2001, 2010 just doesn't cut the mustard. First of all, as primitive as 2001's effects look these days, they look much better than the ones in the sequel. Many of the models, as well as the Jupiter/Io/Europa mattes, did not look very convincing. The biggest consequence of this for me was that I didn't have the feeling of really being in space that I got with the first film. Secondly, I found the direction too ordinary. Kubrick was very much a stylist, and though 2001's characters (and through the characters, the implied sociology of our future) seemed dull, that dullness was for a stylistic reason, to indicate a dehumanization process. Mankind reaching a plateau in evolution that the events in the film would help to overcome. In contrast, 2010's characters (and implied sociology) seemed too much like our present-day. Maybe it's more reasonable to suggest that life in 2010 would be pretty much just like it is now, but it still doesn't give the sense of alieness that was a part of the heart of 2001. However, as its own film, I found 2010 to be very enjoyable. Peter Hyams, while not a *bad* writer/director, didn't inspire much confidence for me. And I certainly found many scenes in 2010 to be handled very awkwardly (much of this being Dr. Floyd's "diary" voice-overs), just as I'd expected. Where Hyams really brought this off, however, was in the characters. The characterization and dialogue were, for the most part, delightful, aided immeasureably by the talents of a top-notch cast. Roy Scheider is an actor I admire, and he didn't let me down. And John Lithgow --- words fail me. He isn't always superb, and to be honest, his work in 2010 isn't among his best, but I'm impressed by the *range* of his talent. I have yet to see him play the same character twice! Contrast this with someone like Peter O'Toole, who always plays the same brash, self-indulgent character. The real treat here, though, was Helen Mirren. I wasn't all that taken with her performance as Morgana in EXCALIBUR, but here she managed to convincingly pull off the role as the Soviet mission commander. 2010 wasn't the greatest thing since sliced bread, but it was *far* better than I had expected it to be, and I highly recommend it. On a scale of 1-10, I would give this a 7. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ From: patcl@tekecs.UUCP (Pat Clancy) Subject: 2010 letdown (semi-SPOILER) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 84 23:22:02 MST All true SF lovers and tech-nerds in general should be very disappointed in 2010. Where 2001 was one of the first (or *the* first?) truly intelligent attempts to convincingly depict a not-to-distant future technology, and show a voyage through deep space with stunning and painstaking realism, 2010 is just Battlestar Galactica level cheap thrills for the kiddies. It's OK for spaceships in a vacuum to noisily roar by in Star Wars, because that's "fantasy". Its not OK in 2010; in fact, it's practically blasphemous. Perhaps the general "sci-fi" audience of the 1980's is simply unaware of the difference between Hollywood-style pseudo-science and physics. Besides sound travelling through space, other failings in the effects/realism department included: (1) "Air-braking" (passing through Jupitor atmosphere) sequence that resembled a burning marshmellow being held in front of a fan; (2) entire circumnavigation of Jupitor appearing to take about 10 minutes, yielding effective velocity very close to c; (3) people walking around normally in 0 g; (4) sloppy paint job evident on close-ups of space pod and instrument panels in Discovery; (5) "blat-blat-blat" sound (radar?) coming from probe monitor on board ship as probe nears moon, which purely for dramatic effect increases in frequency and loudness as probe nears area where chlorophyll is present, as if all their instruments were designed by Mattel. Pat Clancy {ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4,allegra,uw-beaver,hplabs} !tektronix!tekecs!patcl ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 18-Dec SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #226 Date: 18 Dec 84 1330-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #226 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Dec 84 1330-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #226 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 19 Dec 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 226 Today's Topics: Books - M.A. Foster & Gernsback & Story Request, Films - Quiz (2 msgs) & 2010 (6 msgs), Television - Star Trek, Miscellaneous - Rosebud ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mwnorman@watrose.UUCP (mwnorman) Subject: "M.A. Foster - I like him. Anyone else?" Date: Fri, 7 Dec 84 13:23:19 MST Hi! This my first attempt at getting something posted to the net, so please be patient with me (i.e like if I've left anything out from the header, break any ettiquette (sp?) rules, fart rudely, etc ...) I'd like to know if anyone out there in net-land has heard of a SF author by the name of M.A. Foster? He/she (I don't know which) did "Warriors of Dawn", "Game Players of Zan", "Waves" ... etc In my opinion, this person is just a fantastic writer. It seems to me that he (in the generic-use-mode) must have a very solid grounding in social pyschology AND math. He likes most to play with different societies which he constructs with great detail. I don't mean that there is a lot of volume there, it's just that what he presents is so believable. The characters are interesting as well. He usually doesn't draw upon the usual North-American cultures when he does the background history of these people (or planets). Its quite refreshing to see something very new and very good at the same time. Mike Norman (student-at-large - a little too large right now, I've got to lose some weight. Anyone out there want some? Going cheap! University of Waterloo, Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA ...allegra!watmath!watrose!mwnorman - the allegra machine is the only one that I know of that gets here. ------------------------------ From: ecl@ahuta.UUCP (e.leeper) Subject: Re: Hugo Gernsback Date: Sun, 9 Dec 84 08:19:36 MST Evelyn made an error typing in my counter-editorial about Gernsback. The sentence: All this convinces the writing critics that there is enough interest in science fiction that their readers will want to read about the field. should have been at the end of the third to last paragraph, and the last paragraph should read just: To blame Gernsback for the formation of the science fiction ghetto is like blaming Henry Ford for our country's dependence on petroleum. (Evelyn C. Leeper for) Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!lznv!mrl [Mea culpa--ecl] ------------------------------ From: mjc@cmu-cs-cad.ARPA (Monica Cellio) Subject: Here's the plot... Date: Sun, 9 Dec 84 13:25:28 MST I know this is a long shot, but... At the bardic circle at Darkover Grand Council (Wilmington, DE; Thanksgiving) someone sang a song that might have been called "The Wild Hunt". She said it was based on a story she had just had published, but I don't know her name, the name of the story, or where it was published. The basic theme was the wild hunt from Celtic mythology. The hunt is a supernatural thing that sweeps through areas and tends to pick up people along the way to join in random slaughter. In this particular case someone challenges the hunter, but I don't want to say any more. Now that I have become addicted to the song, I'm looking for a pointer to the story. Here are the first couple of verses to the song (hope I'm not violating too many copyright laws here): It's fifty score fine warriors at feasting in the hall, And there was I, the Lord Idath, the chiefest of them all. And it's fifty score fine warriors as brave as e'er were born, And there was I, the Lord Idath, the wearer of the horn. And as they feasted at the boar the wind blew wide the door. The brightness of that e'er great hall was suddenly no more. And up there rose a howling then like baying of a hound, And all that fearless fifty score were frozen at the sound. "The hunt! The hunt!" the people cried, "Oh hide yourselves away, "For none who go abroad this night shall live to see the day." The sleepless dead go far this night; the readied hounds awake. No light nor darkness do they serve; they kill for killing's sake.... -Dragon UUCP: ...seismo!ut-sally!ut-ngp!lll-crg!dragon ARPA: monica.cellio@cmu-cs-cad or dragon@lll-crg ------------------------------ From: ecl@ahuta.UUCP (ecl) Subject: Leeper Film Quiz #3 Date: Mon, 10 Dec 84 07:35:58 MST LEEPER FILM QUIZ #3 (Send replies to ...ihnp4!lznv!mrl, please.) In what science fiction films are the following quotes? 1. "DA... Differential Analyzer... DA..." 2. "God bless Mrs. Ethel Shroak." 3. "I'm pulling the plug on myself." 4. "I've a whale of a tale to tell to you." 5. "It reminds me of my days in a red light district." 6. "Lucky. Lucky. Lucky." 7. "Me and my rhythm box." 8. "Nipples for men!" 9. "Operation Sand-dust." 10. "Operation Skyhook." 11. "Shit, and I was such a great guy, too." 12. "Snake servo-mechanism." 13. "There comes a time in every man's life when he can't believe his eyes." 14. "They tell me this Mexican food is terrific." 15. "To God there is no zero." 16. "We weren't programmed to land in the water." 17. "What sin could one man commit in a single lifetime to deserve this?" 18. "You may send rockets into space, but you're a menace on the highway." 19. "You're a brick." 20. "Your story's gotten bigger, kid." (Evelyn C. Leeper for) Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!lznv!mrl ------------------------------ From: ecl@ahuta.UUCP (ecl) Subject: Leeper Film Quiz #4 Date: Mon, 10 Dec 84 07:36:23 MST LEEPER FILM QUIZ #4 (Send replies to ...ihnp4!lznv!mrl, please.) What in what science fiction films do the following names arise? 1. J.J. Adams 2. Victor Barbicane 3. Dr. Miles Bennell 4. Mitch Brenner 5. John Cabal 6. Scott Carey 7. Andre Delambre 8. Jack Driscoll 9. John Ellman 10. David Filby 11. Dr. Heywood Floyd 12. Jon Fredersen 13. Adam Hart 14. Pat Hendry 15. Ernest Hubbs 16. Prof. Oliver Lindenbrook 17. Freeman Lowell 18. Steve Martin 19. Dr. Russell Marvin 20. Cal Meachum 21. Miles Monroe 22. Cora Peterson 23. Billy Pilgrim 24. Dave Randell 25. Dr. Matthew Roney 26. Dr. Adam Royston 27. Dr. Janos Rukh 28. Steven Shorter 29. Winston Smith 30. Dr. Stephen Sorensen 31. Gideon Spilitt 32. Dr. Brian Stanley 33. Dr. Jeremy Stone 34. Phillip Strock 35. George Taylor 36. Dr. Alexander Thorkel 37. Dwight Towers 38. Sylvia Van Buren 39. Jason Webb 40. Maple White 41. Gordon Zellaby (Evelyn C. Leeper for) Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!lznv!mrl ------------------------------ Date: 18 Dec 84 20:52:47 EDT From: Jaffe@RUTGERS Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!! The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the movie "2010". People who have not yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following messages. Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) ------------------------------ From: eric@milo.UUCP (Eric Bergan) Subject: Re: 2010 review--non spoiler Date: Tue, 11 Dec 84 06:36:55 MST >Many people have argued that 2010 should not be judged against >2001, one of the most influential movies of all time. Perhaps it >IS an unfair comparison, for 2010 is inferior in almost every >respect. Actually, I don't think it is unfair at all. They are obviously reaping marketing benefits by being a sequel, they should also be prepared to take their lumps in comparison. eric ...!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!milo!eric ------------------------------ From: cmaz504@ut-ngp.UUCP (Steve Alexander) Subject: Re: another 2010 mistake Date: Tue, 11 Dec 84 08:31:42 MST Another mistake in the film (other than Heywood Floyd knowing that the monolith hadn't been discussed with the crew) is the lone EVA pod in the docking bay of Discovery. I had always thought that there were only 3 and if one was lost with Frank Poole, another when Bowman had to enter the ship manually (ahem) and the last when Bowman heads toward the monolith then why is that one there? The suit without the helmet in the docking bay may also be a blooper (shouldn't it be a helmet without a suit?) but I haven't seen 2001 in awhile. ------------------------------ From: sdyer@bbncca.ARPA (Steve Dyer) Subject: Re: another 2010 mistake Date: Tue, 11 Dec 84 23:56:51 MST As long as we're at it (the "mistakes" are about the most diverting features of this fiasco) how about the scene when the space-walking astronauts first approach the docking bay of the Discovery? It's covered with some kind of space dust, like dirty clay, and one of their first actions is to brush the surface with their hands. This space dust is rather earthbound, for it doesn't scatter in a cloud as you might expect (assuming that dust would settle on a spaceship anyway) but acts remarkably like the dust on my coffee table, being attracted to the surface, just like gravity. /Steve Dyer {decvax,linus,ima,ihnp4}!bbncca!sdyer sdyer@bbncca.ARPA ------------------------------ From: eder@ssc-vax.UUCP (Dani Eder) Subject: Re: 2010 review review Date: Tue, 11 Dec 84 18:19:48 MST > Much of the science of "2010" is questionable in the face of > what we knew, know and are learning. A new star appears in the > solar system and the earth escapes without a tremor. The Leonov > embarks without enough fuel to either return or slow down. They > do "air braking" (without air) to slow Leonov as she whips around > the planet and into a new orbit. How's that for science friction. > missed. The Leonov doesn't depart without enough fuel. The early > departure from Jupiter is makes the kludge with Discovery > necessary. And "air braking" is not science fiction made up for > the movie, it was even featured on the cover of Popular Science a > year or so ago. First of all, the term is 'aerobraking'. Yes it is possible (we are studying it here at Boeing. In fact, Dr. Dana Andrews, who does aero-propulsion design, has a patent on the concept and was a technical consultant for 2010.) No, it was not accurately portrayed in the film. A one-half orbit around Jupiter at cloud top level takes 88.6 minutes. In the film it is portrayed as taking 1-2 minutes. The aerobrake trail would be too small to see on the scale of Jupiter as a whole. Credit goes to the filmmakers for getting a reasonable design for the aerobrake, a multiple-ballute type. They got the color right, it would be dark so as to radiate the absorbed heat flux. You would probably jettison them as in the film. While on the subject of technical mistakes, the Discovery is found rotating endwise. Initially, the carousel stopping would leave it spinning around its' long axis. This is unstable and would decay into the end-for-end rotation. But, when you spin up the carousel again, it wouldn't stop rotating end-for-end, it would be a combination motion. The spinning Discovery would also be pulling about 5 g's at the command center. The apparent motion of the clouds on Jupiter works out to more than escape velocity (good stiff breeze). Your hair floats in zero- gravity (see any shuttle tapes). They probably knew about this one but passed because of cost. They did know that stars are not visible in space when the sun or a planet is out, but felt the audience would accept it better with stars. When they are escaping from Jupiter, it implodes just as they burn out the Leonov's engines. Surface escape from Jupiter is 67 kilometers/second (151,000 mph) in the few minutes since they started to escape, their distance would have changed insignificantly. If Jupiter is as bright at Europa as the Sun is at Earth, then Jupiter as seen from the Earth would be as bright as a first-quarter moon. In the daytime you would have a hard time finding it. Dani Eder / Boeing Aerospace Company / ssc-vax!eder / (206)773-4545 p.s. The aerobrake flight demonstration is scheduled (Congress willing) for 1988. It won't be 'untried'. ------------------------------ From: knudsen@ihnss.UUCP Subject: 2001: How NOT to make a Movie Date: Tue, 11 Dec 84 17:10:10 MST Since others have impugned the value of Hugo Gernsback, I feel ready to get off my chest something that's bothered me for years: "2001" had a lot of faults as a movie, and spoiled a lot of other movies and TV series by establishing some bad habits. Period. Kubrick was a good enough director and had good enough SFX that he brought it off. But 2001 set some rather damaging precedents: --Half-hour worth of plot dragged into a 2+ hour movie --Wooden, emotionless acting (OK, that's part of Kubrick's story, but..) --Slooooowwwww pacing, including long special-effects views and what's really worse, actors' faces "spacing out" staring at those scenes. Certain movies and shows that suffered from the above bad habits were the first Star Trek movie and an otherwise very well done TV series called "The Starlost." The latter was especially troubled by slow pacing and spaced-out characters, although at least they showed emotions. Actually, maybe the real blame is on our culture for changing so much in expectations. 2001 is from 1967, when LSD, Zen, and introspection were big. Today people want action, love scenes, and cocaine rushes. So when "Star Trek: The Movie" was made in 2001 style (actually done a lot better, in my opinion), our late 70's reviewers blamed it for the same things they praised in 2001. Lesson One: Don't believe anything any critic says. Lesson Two: Don't believe anything another person says. Lesson Three: Don't feel bound to what *you* thought five years ago, unless you think you somehow transcend the pop culture of the moment (we all think that, don't we?) mike k ------------------------------ Date: 11 Dec 84 23:41:08 PST (Tue) Subject: Re: star trek From: Alastair Milne > In original query about 3D chess on Star Trek I asked about >rules of movement(ie. different levels, attack boards...). I have >the star fleet technical manual(and medical), but it doesn't tell >you about moving pieces on or off the attack boards or to other >levels. > Actually it isn't just 3 level chess because the attack boards >are half levels and can be move under the bottom and above the top. > I would expect this game to be much less complex than it >appears; there aren't as many squares open to all pieces. The >attack boards use up a total of 16 squares. > [raig > cmacfarlane@bbnccj > 617-497-2972 > >PS. "The Courtmartial" is the only show I can remember that has > Spock playing it in the forground... In "Where No Man Has Gone Before", Kirk and Spock are first seen over a game of 3D chess (Kirk beats Spock!!), and in "Charley" (I think that's the name), Spock and Charley play, after Charley cuts off Spock's explanation of the game. When Spock beats him in fewer than 5 moves, Charley becomes enraged and melts down all the pieces on the board. That's all I can remember offhand. Can anybody add any more? Alastair PS. I think it was just "Courtmartial". ------------------------------ From: wetcw@pyuxa.UUCP (T C Wheeler) Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal - Rosebud? Date: Mon, 10 Dec 84 07:32:08 MST There were apparently three (3) Rosebuds. One was burned for the movie and the other two put back in storage as the scene went on the first take. Speilberg now has one of the sleds and some guy out on Long Island has the other. The Long Island sled was picked up at an auction a number of year ago (that's years). Speilberg got his from someone else who was at the auction. At least this was the story that was banging around in the papers about a year ago in this area. T. C. Wheeler ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1, unseen,, Summary-line: 19-Dec SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #227 Date: 19 Dec 84 0927-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #227 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Dec 84 0927-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #227 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 19 Dec 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 227 Today's Topics: Books - Bradley & M.A. Foster & Goble & Vinge (2 msgs) & Gernsback, Films - Buckaroo Banzai, Radio - The Lord of the Rings (2 msgs), Television - The Twilight Zone (3 msgs), Miscellaneous - Time Travel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14 Dec 84 0057 PST From: David M. Chelberg Subject: Darkover City of Sorcery continuation of the free Amazons concerning Magdalen Lorne is a new book by MZB chronologically 7 years after Thendara House. - Dave Chelberg (DMC @SAIL) ------------------------------ From: wjr@utcs.UUCP (William Rucklidge) Subject: Re: "M.A. Foster - I like him. Anyone else?" Date: Fri, 14 Dec 84 22:34:31 MST > FROM : mwnorman@watrose (Mike Norman - student-at-large; U of > Waterloo) > I'd like to know if anyone out there in net-land has heard of a SF > author by the name of M.A. Foster? He/she (I don't know which) > did "Warriors of Dawn", "Game Players of Zan", "Waves" ... etc > In my opinion, this person is just a fantastic writer. It seems > to me that he (in the generic-use-mode) must have a very solid > grounding in social pyschology AND math. He likes most to play > with different societies which he constructs with great detail. I > don't mean that there is alot of volume there, its just that what > he presents is so believable. The characters are interesting as > well. He usually doesn't draw upon the usual North-American > cultures when he does the background history of these people (or > planets). Its quite refreshing to see something very new and very > good at the same time. I haven't seen any work by M.A.Foster, but from the Science Fiction Encyclopedia (1977), here is some more information: FOSTER, M(ICHAEL) A(NTHONY) (1939-): American writer, former data systems analyst and ICBM launch crew commander for the American Air Force...MAF's slow but detailed constuction of the Ier culture and language...marks his series out as one of potential importance to the genre. "You can always put something in a box." This message brought to you with the aid of the Poslfit Committee. William Rucklidge University of Toronto Computing Services {decvax,ihnp4,utcsrgv,{allegra,linus}!utzoo}!utcs!wjr ------------------------------ Date: Sat 15 Dec 84 15:22:57-EST From: LINDSAY@TL-20A.ARPA Subject: The Kalevide, by Lou Goble THE KALEVIDE (c)1982, Bantam 0-553-22531-6 I strongly recommend this book to lovers of myth and fantasy. Why? Well, yes, the writing is better than mine. Yes, it has plot, action, characters, demons, locales, cryptic references, cursed swords, and all the other hallmarks. But more importantly: It is itself. This book is sideways from The Lord of the Rings and all that followed it. It is a retelling of the "Kalevipoeg", the national epic of Estonia, and as such has echos of the Finnish "Kalevala". But it IS itself. The hero, the Kalevide, is just outright stupid, but he has heart. He braves the underworld itself, he leads gallantly, and in the end, Ukko sets his spirit as warden at the door between death and life. But he's clumsy, he falls asleep, he forgets his Quest, and his story is altogether apart from the usual run. The world is younger, simpler, and rawer; the magic is unexpected; Viru, on the Amber Sea, is strangely transformed by teachings, by foreigners, and by war. Historians place this story in the thirteenth century. Lou Goble has wisely moved it to a more abstract time, and a more formless world, where words such as "epic" seem more truthful. It's not a comedy, and not as grim as "Hrolf Kraki's Saga", but it has more of these than it has of Tolkein. Don Lindsay%Tartan.Arpa ------------------------------ From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Date: 14 Dec 84 8:05:47 EST Subject: Mr. Slippery's back in print After waythehell too long, Vernor Vinge's TRUE NAMES is back in print as a trade paperback. I forget the publisher; such books are unwelcome in these offices. But it's a story NO ONE on this network should fail to read. Much better than Varley's PRESS ENTER, which I didn't buy for a moment (Varley obviously read The Hacker's Dictionary and was a little too impressed) and one of the more plausible speculations on the nature of 21st century networking. Networking will go one of two ways, depending how successful we are at creating artificial intelligences in the next forty years. Vinge's vision is one. Nobody has done the other yet, and if I hurry I may be able to before Hogan does... --Jeff Duntemann The Pyroceram Rat ------------------------------ Date: 14 Dec 84 1759 PST From: Hans Moravec Subject: True Names The old edition of True Names by Dell (in Binary Star #5) seems to be no longer available, but I saw an ad for a new, illustrated, edition by Bluejay books in Analog a few months ago. They also have Vernor Vinge's new book, "The Peace War". True Names is about the new future (traditional space travel stories are the old future - not obsolete, but incomplete). ------------------------------ Date: Wed 12 Dec 84 23:07:16-EST From: Janice Subject: Song of the Derriere-Garde (Gernsback and Ghettoization) Cc: eyal%wisdom.BITNET@UCB-VAX.ARPA "We do not like mainstream, because it is dumb. There's no sense of wonder, it's cheerless and glum. It's mundane and windy and tiresome too ... We've never read any, but know this is true." -- from "The Song of the Derriere-Garde," by Arthur Hlavaty Eyal Mozes is singing an old song, and one that is just as pointless now as it was when first sung. To class all of "mainstream" (what a useless word) fiction as glum and depressing is to make the same mistake as "mundanes" do when they put down all of science fiction as Westerns in spacesuits. Sure, The World According to Garp is depressing. It's extremely depressing, and no one would suggest that someone who doesn't like depressing fiction should read it. (It does have other redeeming values, such as a fine, ironic sense of humor and an interesting portrait of a writer, but never mind.) On the other hand, to name merely the most recent "mainstream" novel I've read, take Alice Walker's book The Color Purple. (It won the Pulitzer Prize -- you can't get much more mainstream.) The book is depressing in spots, yes, but on the whole it is a book about triumph, about overcoming obstacles, about the ability of people to succeed and achieve independence no matter what the odds, and about bonds between people. It even has its own version of "sense of wonder" -- a wonder at nature, which can be at least as amazing as the works of technology. I could name others, but I won't here. The point is that to apply one set of adjectives to an entire class of fiction, when that class is more a device of marketing than anything else, is always a mistake. "We do not like Malzberg or Ballard or Lem, Silverberg, Tiptree, or any of them. Oh, can you imagine a fouler sin Than books where the heros do not always win?" -- "The Song of the Derriere-Garde" I don't like every one of the above-named authors. Many people don't. However, those like Eyal who class all of them under the rubric "New Wave" and therefore depressing and boring are missing quite a lot. Their first mistake is to misunderstand what the "New Wave" was about. (And to forget that it is basically over.) Its purpose was not to produce "depressing" stories -- as Eyal pointed out, Wells and his descendants had been doing a good job of that, and even in his beloved "Golden Age," there were depressing stories. (No one can tell me, for example, that Asimov's "Nightfall," one of The Great Ghod Campbell's favorites, is not depressing.) The purpose of the New Wave was to bring literary standards to sf. What do I mean by literary standards? Use of language that is more than pedestrian. Rounded, real characters. More of a theme than "Goshwowboyoboy, isn't technology great?" An understanding that Sensawunda does not substitute for all of these things. In many ways, the New Wave was a failure. Much of the fiction produced was not experimental, it was simply bad. Some authors decided to eliminate plot, rather than add to it. Lots of pretty words do not a story (or a novel) make. But then, neither do lots of pretty spaceships. However, in a couple of important ways the New Wave was a success. It helped finish the process, started by Campbell, of bringing verisimilitude to sf characters. One of the reasons Gernsback's "Ralph ..." is so bad is that the characters spend half their time marveling at all the technological wonders that surround them. (How many times do you turn to the guy at the next terminal and say, "Aren't computers amazing? And aren't we lucky to live in a world where science has produced such wonders?" And if you did, would your neighbor be likely to reply, "Yes, and not only these computers, but the television, that incredible device, make our lives so much more enjoyable than they would have been without science.") You don't find that anymore. Nor do you (often) find the kind of pulp character Harry Harrison parodies in Bill, the Galactic Hero. The second mistake is to think that everything that Ellison, or Bradbury (neither of whom is really a "New Wave" writer -- they started writing too early for that), or [fill in you favorite modern sf author] writes is depressing. It's simply not true. I'm not going to get into any more flames on Ellison, or any particular author, but I will continue to insist that not everything he writes is depressing. And no, they don't write "hardware" sf. That's not what they're after. Sf can involve many kinds of speculation. The third mistake is drawing too narrow a definition of the purpose of literature. The purpose of literature is not to cheer us up, or to give us hope, or to be romantic, although it can do all of those things. Literature, good literature, tells us about ourselves. What it tells us may be optimistic, or it may be depressing, and you can select what books you read solely on those grounds if you choose. But then you will be missing a lot. Life is often depressing, and there are bad things in the world. Literature at its best can, rather than depress us further about life, help us get a handle on it. I don't like fiction that seems to have no aim other than depressing the reader (in my opinion, most of Thomas Disch's work fits into this category). I do like fiction that tells me a truth, or many truths, about myself and the rest of the world. It's fine to escape from time to time. It's not so fine to think that is the only purpose of literature. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Dec 84 14:20 EST From: Jonathan Ostrowsky Subject: Buckaroo Banzai Finally, some outspoken praise for Buckaroo Banzai (in #216 and #217)! Thanks, Jeff Meyer and Greg Taylor. Until these messages appeared, I was mystified by the generally lukewarm reception it's received in sf-lovers. Granted, it's not the best movie ever made (although in a forum where SW3, "A New Hope", was once awarded this distinction, normal standards of comparison can safely be suspended), but I found it to be witty, inventive, absorbing, and, most of all ... ...incredibly rich in detail. Friends who have seen BB five times are still discovering new things both visually and aurally. The visual complexity of any given scene (inside Yoyodyne, for example, or in John Whorfin's room at the Trenton Home for the Criminally Insane) is overwhelming. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the movie has not done well generally, considering that Fox has done an abysmal job of marketing it, but I am disappointed that fans have given it such short shrift. The irony here is that if (for instance) a Star Trek film were done with such wit and intelligence, many fans would be making comparisons to "Citizen Kane". ------------------------------ Date: 14 December 1984 22:39-EST From: Mark W. Terpin Will the National Public Radio's 'Lord of the Rings' be broadcast in the Boston area? Not just children would like to hear it, or else I'm a kid at heart... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon 17 Dec 84 09:52:51-PST From: Andy Freeman Subject: NPR's Lord of the Rings To: dcohen%ecld@USC-ECL.ARPA Many decent bookstores sell those tapes, so please buy them instead of taping off the radio. No, I'm not suggesting this because of the copyright notice, but rather because I'm greedy. If no one buys the tapes, there won't be any new ones. (NPR doesn't have the production budget to make those tapes; there's a company behind it.) Think of it as buying future "taped books" for the little ones. -andy ------------------------------ Date: 11 Dec 84 22:02:55 PST (Tue) To: mike@rand-unix Subject: Re: Spielberg's Amazing Tales From: Jim Hester According to the December 1984 issue of STARLOG, "The Twilight Zone" is planned to begin Fall 1985 on CBS. Phil DeGuere (creator/ producer of Simon and Simon, co-creator/exec. producer of Whiz Kids, and crafter of the Doctor Strange pilot) is heading the show. "Amazing Stories" by Spielberg is mentioned, and it is different. It will play on NBC. They claim that Twilight Zone was NOT prompted by Amazing Stories. The only difference given is that Twilight Zone will be somewhat scary: a 10pm show. Amazing Stories will be milder: shown at 8pm. They say they may re-do some of the old episodes, but want the show to appeal to modern children, and plan to rely heavily on contemporary SF. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 84 09:03 CST From: Boebert@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Return of the Twilight Zone To: mike@RAND-UNIX.ARPA Mike questioned the rumor about the return of the Twilight Zone which I posted to sf-lovers some time back, so let me expand a bit. The statement was made by both the producer of Simon and Simon and his agent that he had bought the rights to the Twilight Zone, had a deal to get it on the air, and was negotiating with the Serling estate for the rights to old scripts. This statement was made publicly on the last day of the Cabrillo Mystery Writer's Conference, and was made in the context of soliciting scripts from the attending authors. I have no idea what the status of the various deals involved is, but the intent from the production company side certainly seems clear. ------------------------------ Date: Wed 12 Dec 84 19:49:22-EST From: Janice Subject: Twilight Zone TV series It is indeed a different series from AMAZING. Read LOCUS. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Dec 84 05:16:25 PST From: utcsrgv!mcgill-vision!mcgill-vision!mouse@uw-beaver.arpa (der From: Mouse) Subject: Re: Michael Rubin: terminator and time travel (paradoxes) This sounds like the paradox avoidance theory in a book I read some years ago. It was called "The Overlords of War", by Gerard Klein (translated from some foreign language -- the name of John Brunner comes to mind as translator but I don't have the book in front of me). If something happens to cause a paradox, a "timequake", a series of oscillations in time, occurs (in what sense something of this nature can be said to "occur" is not explained). These oscillations eventually damp themselves out in some way which avoids the paradox -- and history is consistent again. How wonderful. der Mouse ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Summary-line: 19-Dec SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers #SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #228 Date: 19 Dec 84 0948-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #228 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Dec 84 0948-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #228 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 19 Dec 1984 Volume 9 : Issue 228 Today's Topics: Books - Brust & Chalker & Ellison & LeGuin & Modesty Blaise, Films - Freaks & Dune (3 msgs), Miscellaneous - Boskone Filksong Contest ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun 16 Dec 84 17:05:32-PST From: Andrew Gideon Subject: Brust's "Jhereg" & Nancy Connor Reply-to: GIDEON@SU-SCORE.ARPA I feel obliged to comment on Nancy Connor's (V9 #214) statement concerning Steven Brust's "Jhereg" (and "Yendi", too I guess). The main character of these stories uses his familiar, which is a dragon-like creature, we assume, to survive in his world. Born a noncitizen (wrong species), hated by the majority of the population, pushed into the "house" of organized crime, Vlad Taltos hasn't a good deal going for him. Vlad's primary use of his familiar is information ("who notices a jhereg flying above the city") and protection. His original "line of crime" is assassin, but he is only killing members of a species who take great pleasure in beating and killing his kind. In fact, he originally chose this line of work because of the treatment he received at the hands of citizens. There is more 'justification', but that may yield too much of the plot. Vlad is *NOT* a bad guy. He is even told at one point, "For an assassin, you're a real sweetheart." Andy Gideon gideon@su-score.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 84 20:53 CDT From: John_Mellby Subject: Masters of Flux & Anchor The concluding book in Jack Chalker's Soul Rider series is out and it is very good. The book is "Masters of Flux and Anchor". This is the third book in the series and concludes the plot line started in "Spirits of Flux and Anchor". Anchors are regions of normality surrounded by Flux. The Fluxlands are areas covered with a "magic ether" (forgive me but I don't know how to describe it better). The Flux can be manipulated by "wizards" who are feared by the people in Anchors. The books are about conflicts between different groups of these "wizards". Some of which want to open some gates to other universes even though legend has it that horrible enemies wait behind the gate. In the third book a group of people in Anchor overthrow a matriarchy and start conditioning people to believe that men are made to rule and women are to be housewives and pets. All of this is done rather better in the book than I can describe here. Jack Chalker has always has a great way of inventing and describing unusual environments, and I believe in this book he has finally been able to create a ending to a book which is good enough to match the body. This series is excellent! ------------------------------ Date: 17 Dec 1984 08:20:47-EST From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford Subject: Ellison question.... All that talk of Harlan Ellison inspired me to read some more of his stuff, and since the general consensus seems to be that DEATHBIRD STORIES is his best collection, I decided I should start with it. However, it's not all that easy to find anymore. I've seen a few copies of the Bluejay edition, but they've all been pretty battered. Then I came across an ad for the Science Fiction Book Club which listed DEATHBIRD STORIES as one of the titles you could get upon joining. So, my question is: Has anyone out there seen the SF Book Club edition? Is it drawn from the Bluejay edition or from some earlier version? The reason I'm concerned is that the Bluejay edition contains a note about how all earlier editions were not quite as Ellison wanted them to be, and about how the Bluejay version has been specifically revised and updated. Thanks in advance for any help. --- Jeff Rogers jcr@mitre-bedford.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 17 Dec 84 16:21:05 PST (Mon) Subject: Ursala K. Le Guin's "The Eye of the Heron" From: "Tim Shimeall" This book is well worth reading, perhaps several times. There are two groups of people occupying a small area on an otherwise uninhabited planet. The first group, The City folk, is the decendants of criminals sentenced to the planet when it was a penal colony. The second group (The Shanty Towners) is the decendants of a group of civil disobedience advocates exiled fifty years after the first group arrived. LeGuin provides a VERY believable portayal of these two groups and their interactions. There are not many two-dimensional characters, which is rare in a book discussing such widely divergent lifestyles. Those who like "liberterian S-F" should really get into this book, but most of the rest of us will find it worthwhile as well. Tim ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 84 20:45 CDT From: John_Mellby Subject: Modesty Blaise Modesty Blaise -- Mysterious Press has just released three American Editions of Modesty Blaise books. Modesty is a freelance spy and former crook of sorts who tends to get involved in various criminal and governmental hassles. The books are not really Science Fiction, but they are usually imported into the better Science Fiction stores. The stories do involve a little speculation, usually of the ESP, precognition variety. The books are crime/action/suspense and always involve some well-described fighting with a variety of weapons from swords to hand-to-hand. These three books are not new, but haven't been available in American editions for some time and some have never been available in paperback. The released books are: Sabre Tooth I, Lucifer A Taste for Death The book also says that the first book, Modesty Blaise, and The Xanadu Talisman are also available. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Dec 1984 08:21:40-EST From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford Subject: Film request.... Does anyone know if Todd Browning's 1930's film "Freaks" is available on videotape? If so I'd appreciate any info you have concerning manufacturer, distributor, etc. Again, thanks in advance. --- Jeff Rogers jcr@mitre-bedford.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Tue 18 Dec 84 11:29:54-PST From: Dave Combs Subject: DUNE, one more time Along with what seems like half the population of the United States, I went to see DUNE last week. Though I didn't read the Newsweek on Campus reviews mentioned in several earlier notes, I must say that I agreed with them. This movie appears to be a "lets see how many high points of the book we can cram into a little over 2 hours" type of movie. Characters are never developed, except in a very superficial sense. Various terms from the book are thrown in, with no explanation, then never used again. This "facial infection" business with the Baron was totally unnecessary, unless you are really into grotesque effects. The sound effects, which I heard in a theater with a 70mm screen and Dolby, were fine but, as various people have mentioned, were loud enough to be painful at several points. Finally, the narration method of hearing a character's thoughts as they were viewed on the screen was rather distracting and didn't seem to explain anything that wasn't reasonably obvious to anyone paying attention. Now to the good parts. First, the plot does, with some minor exceptions including the "biblical" rainstorm at the end, stick very close to the book. The sandworms, while not exactly what I had envisioned, were at least interesting. Finally, the people I went with who hadn't read the book said that the movie was a good adventure/battle film, though they agreed the sound was way too loud. As far as I'm concerned, it wasn't as bad as it could have been, it wasn't NEARLY as good as it could have been, but it definitely wasn't worth $6 to stand in line for 2 hours to see. Dave Combs ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Dec 84 14:08 EST From: Henry Nussbacher Subject: DUNE First let me state where I am coming from. I read all the Dune books, enjoyed them and have been patiently awaiting the movie for 2 years ever since I heard it being produced. I saw some TV reviews and read some reviews and basically discounted these reviews because I felt that the reviewer had never read any of the books. I felt if you don't read the books you will miss out on what is unsaid in the movie. I went into the movie on Sunday night with a positive attitude, intending to enjoy it. (I have enjoyed all the Star Wars epics and the Star Trek movies and episopes (some more than others)). I have never been so let down in my life. The theater was a good theater but it appeared that everyone seeing it was smoking some weed in order to "appreciate" it more. I scanned the theater and saw many single men and guys in teams (looking and talking like programmers, incidentally). Not very many women came out to the theater where I was. The movie stank! There was no characterizations and the special effects were not all that good either. I squirmed in my chair keeping track of the time and hoping that the movie would end. This past week I have seen "2010 and "The Terminator" and "Dune" is clearly at the end of the list. I hope to see "Starman" tonight and I know whatever quality it is, it will far exceed anything "Dune" had to offer. Henry Nussbacher ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Dec 1984 18:11 EST From: Jim Aspnes Subject: Dune Micro-review: gag. yucko. blech. A fair number of major wincers, including bullets than penetrate shields, lasguns carried as standard weapons, rain on Arrakis (there's a little justification for this one, but ...); and a fair number of loose ends: the Atreides family atomics appear miraculously when needed, without the slightest hint of the Convention, Thufir Hawat is left hanging on Giedi Prime, the Shadout Mapes appears and vanishes without accomplishing anything, the movie ends before the book, etc. I think the biggest problem was the director/writer's apparent desire to make Dune comprehensible to people who had never read the book. Most of the significant pieces of dialogue get repeated over and over again in Paul's thoughts, and a few images (the opening hand, the dripping water) that worked reasonably well the first time were replayed into oblivion. It didn't seem to help much, as one person I know who had not read Dune came out of the movie understanding far less than when he went in, having only a few buzzphrases ("traveling without moving", "the sleeper must awaken") to show for his $4.75. Lotta blood though. That's easy enough to figure out. Ideally, the movie will make enough money off the hack-slash-and-pull-your-heart- plug set that someone will try making a decent remake twenty years from now. Even if that never comes, it's probably best to wait. Jim ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Dec 84 13:38 EST From: "J. Spencer Love" Subject: Boskone Filksong Contest The New England Science Fiction Association (NESFA) is sponsoring a Filksong contest associated with Boskone XXII, its annual science fiction convention. Boskone is a major east cost regional, with expected attendance of about 2500. Filksongs may owe their name to a misprint in a WorldCon program some years ago. Readers of MAD magazine are familiar with the concept: new words to old tunes. Many are humorous, but some tell stories, are sprinkled with science fiction trivia, or deal with the fannish condition. The genre has attracted some singers and folk writers of considerable talent. Songbooks and performance tapes are commercially available, which cater to different market segments. There are songs about Star Trek and Star Wars, songs about conventions, songs about the SCA, songs which are complete original science fiction stories, and folk songs about space exploration and development. The NESFA Hymnal is a songbook with a large collection of "old favorites". Most of the songs in it use tunes that are widely known. The filksong contest is one way of finding "new favorites" which could populate a second volume of the Hymnal. The advent of computerized music typesetting means that the second volume can contain more obscure or original tunes, but emphasis is still on singability. The prizes in the contest are symbolic: ribbons and possible notoriety. NESFA is a non-profit organization, run by volunteers. Surplus income is used to make possible new ventures, such as NESFA Press books, and as protection against the possibility that a blizzard some February would cancel a Boskone with large financial liability. Consequently, no prize money or song royalties are possible. Contest rules: 1. Anyone may enter. 2. Send as many songs as you like. 3. Either the words, or the tune, or both must be the original work of the submitter(s). Please include a copyright notice if you want one. Material by someone else must be attributed, at least to a source. Adaptations of someone else's words to another someone else's tune can't be judged. 4. Submissions may not have been published in any songbook, fanzine or prozine before January 1st, 1984. 5. In an effort to give as many prizes to deserving entries as possible, and to encourage as many types of entries as we can, we will select categories after all entries are received, and give a first prize and honorable mention(s) in each category. 6. No judge will judge his or her own entry in the contest. 7. If you wish to enter an obscure, difficult or original tune, then either score or a cassette tape would be appreciated, since we may decide otherwise that judging the entry is too difficult. Recorded evidence of inability to sing will not hurt your chances of winning. 8. To enter, send your lyrics by computer mail to JSLove@MIT-Multics.ARPA or send (typed?) lyrics, music and/or tape to NESFA Filksong Contest Box G, MIT Branch Post Office Cambridge, MA 02139 9. The deadline for posting lyrics is 2 January 1985. If you send by network mail, thus saving the effort of keyboarding the songs at this end, the deadline is 14 January 1985. The deadline for posting cassettes or scores for network mailed entries is 14 January 1985. Entries will be acknowledged. 10. Winners will be announced at the opening ceremonies of Boskone XXII on Saturday 16 February 1985. If the entrant is present, the ribbon will be presented. Otherwise the award will be mailed. 11. We will return cassettes and other posted materials if adequate return postage is enclosed. 12. Entering a song gives NESFA permission to use it in a future NESFA hymnal. Your copyright notice (if any) and your attribution will be preserved. However, if part of your entry is protected by someone else's copyright, that will not disqualify the entry. To publish that part as well, NESFA would have to obtain permission from the third party. There is not time to process requests for additional information by U.S. Mail. However, requests send via network mail will be answered the first week in January. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************