BABYL OPTIONS: Version: 5 Labels: Note: This is the header of an rmail file. Note: If you are seeing it in rmail, Note: it means the file has no messages in it.  1,, Summary-line: 1-Jul JPM@Mit-Ai #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #1 Date: Thursday, July 1, 1982 1:43PM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #1 To: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai *** EOOH *** Date: Thursday, July 1, 1982 1:43PM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #1 To: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 1 Jul 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 1 Today's Topics: SF Movies - Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, SF Books - Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, Spoiler - Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue Jun 29 00:44:06 1982 From: decvax!watmath!jcwinterton at Berkeley Subject: TWOK - enough, please. There has been enough discussion of this topic to last all of us for a life time. In fact, lately most of the discussion has been on motion pictures. Anyone noticed that ACE seems to be indulging in a Randall Garrett festival? Does anyone read books anymore? John Winterton at watmath!jcwinterton ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jun 1982 (Tuesday) 0933-EDT From: PUDER at Wharton-10 (Karl Puder) Subject: Wooden Kirk? Did anyone else notice how many times someone asked Kirk "how do you feel Jim? "? It seems like they heard the critics picking on Shatner's acting and decided to demonstrate that Kirk has feelings by \asking/ him. ------------------------------ Date: 21 June 1982 09:20 edt From: CLJones.Multics at MIT-MULTICS Subject: tWoK: Kahn vs. Khan? It is certainly quite true that the title of the movie has the name spelled "Khan", and I was annoyed at seeing the constant misspelling in SFL. However, I looked in James Blish's adaptation of "Space Seed" in the anthology 'Star Trek 2', and he had it spelled as "Kahn". I guess this is another example (albeit a small one) of an inconsistency between the movie (excuse me, motion picture) and TV versions of ST. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jun 1982 1712-EDT From: DD-B Reply-to: "DYER-BENNET at KL2137 c/o" Subject: SFL contribution ( Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V5 #70 ) (Reed.ES at PARC-MAXC) On Khan versus Kahn -- I looked up the name in the Blishelization of Space Seed to come up with Kahn. It surprised many of us, as we thought we'd seen it as Khan in the movie. Blame Blish, we went out of our way to check up on it. [ Khan is traditionally spelled KHAN, not KAHN. The latter is perhaps an attempt at an angloization of the original spelling. -- Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jun 1982 0851-EDT From: John R. Covert Subject: Mister Saavik "Mister" is the standard form of address for cadets at military academies. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jun 82 11:51:26-EDT (Mon) From: Earl Weaver (VLD/VMB) Subject: Saavik I like Saavik. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 1982 1443-PDT From: Paul Dietz Subject: Roddenberry movie rumors That's right, the original idea was to have the Enterprise encounter god. At one point, Bones would use one of those marvelous hand held diagnostic things on him, and announce "He's dead, Jim!". This may explain why the title was originally "Sartrek: The Motion Picture". ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, July 1, 1982 1:43PM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Subject: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! All of the remaining messages in this digest discuss some plot details in both the movie and the book Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. Some readers may not wish to read on. ------------------------------ Date: 16-JUN-1982 16:49 From: TSC::COORS::VICKREY Reply-to: TSC::COORS::VICKREY Subject: For the record . . . . Chekov was the first officer of the Reliant, not the captain as was stated in a recent extended discussion on this list. How come Chekov and Khan recognized each other, as "Space Seed" was first season and Chekov didn't appear until the second? Well, according to the book, he was on the Enterprise at the time of "Space Seed", doing night watches. And finally, Khan is NOT Kahn, but KHAN! ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jun 1982 10:00 PDT From: kolling at PARC-MAXC Subject: ST:TWOK bloopers 1. "I'll bet the movie-makers knew all along that Chekhov didn't come on board until after the Kahn episode." Sure, after all, "Chekhov" must have remembered if no one else did. 2. "it is hard to believe that [the computer] wouldn't have remembered that Khan had been exiled in that system". It states in the book that Kirk specifically didn't record this info in the computers, so that no one would be tempted to free Khan (or some similar reason, I forget exactly what). ------------------------------ Date: 15-Jun-82 1:17PM-EDT (Tue) From: David Miller Subject: ST-TWO-k Remember... ***************SPOILER*********** This gives away plot details of Star Trek III "In Search Of Spock" Well of course I'm not sure that this is really what is going to happen, but then a did predict that a certain Sithian Lord had an abandoned child on Tatooine within two weeks of "Star Wars" coming out. What is the possible reason for having a genesis machine in the movie when a super-bomb would have been just as good, and a lot more believable? Why to enable Spock's body to be recreated from his dead corpse of course. But what good is Spock's body without his mind? True, but what better place to hide Spock's mind then in along with McCoy's consciousness. We've seen it before in the "Never fear Sargon's here" episode, where Spock spent half the show in Nurse Chapel's mind. Proof: "He's not really dead Jim, not as long as we remember him." That is McCoy's last line in the movie, and I don't think it was an accident. Reactions?? --Dave (miller@yale) ------------------------------ Date: 28 June 1982 15:18 edt From: York.Multics at MIT-MULTICS (William M. York) Subject: "remember" what? Perhaps it is no accident that Spock chose the doctor to mind meld, and that McCoy will "remember" something critical about Vulcan physiology or psychology at the appropriate time in the next movie. ------------------------------ Date: 28 June 1982 14:21-EDT From: Daniel F. Chernikoff Subject: Star Trek II: Why they needed a lifeless planet for the Subject: genesis device I got the impression, from conversations among the Genesis scientists and the Star-Fleet officers that were hunting out the planet (Checkov et al) that since this was the first planet-scale test of the Genesis device, they wanted to use a completely lifeless planet to PROVE that it would create life out of lifeless matter. Not so much that it wouldn't work with a life-full planet, or that it was immoral -- it would just throw the results of the experiment into doubt. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jun 1982 2030-PDT From: Bill Subject: ST: TWOK The other interesting point concerning the newly created planet is that Khan's molecules were floating around when it was formed. What effect will this have on the newly created life forms(including Spock's)? Also, from all that we've read here (the recent interview with Nimoy and Shatner) and from what I've read elsewhere, Spock will indeed be back for STIII, even if he has to wait until "1994!" Bill ------------------------------ Date: 24-Jun-1982 From: AL LEHOTSKY AT METOO Reply-to: "AL LEHOTSKY AT METOO c/o" Subject: Star Trek II If you haven't seen ST2 - tWoK yet, drop whatever you're doing and go see it! While it does have a few minor flaws (both in technology and in military matters), it's a solid movie with an engrossing plot. --- (Spoiler Warning??) --- On the "flaws", can anyone think of a justification as to why the ships are so close when they are firing on one another? In the first battle-scene, I was half-expecting Khan and a boarding party to come "swarming over the gunwales, cutlasses in hand....". Also, how did Chekhov manage to survive the "earwigs"? Khan said that some large number of his group (20?) had been killed by the larvae. But Chekhov managed to survive. I suppose you could chalk it up to superior medical treatment by McCoy.... ------------------------------ Date: Mon Jun 28 23:41:40 1982 From: decvax!watmath!bstempleton at Berkeley Subject: Star Trek - Spoiler On the radiation suit idea: The Enterprise escapes the effect with a fraction of a second to spare - they would have died if he had put on a suit. Spock did the only logical thing - either he would die with everybody or he would die alone. In my opinion, that planet must be the one that was outside the nebulosity. Formation of a sun and planet is just too much. After all, if you trust the sfx, the genesis effect spread almost as fast as a star ship at warp speed, and latched on to the first planet it could find. Complete transfer of all of Spock's mind in 1/3 of a second into McCoy? Are you kidding??? Brad ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jun 1982 11:59 EDT From: Stevenson.WBST at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V5 #71 "When Spock went into the radiation chamber, why didn't he wear a protective suit? ... why weren't there waldoes available?" -- Paul Karger at RDVAX Well, I assume Spock didn't have time to properly put on and seal a radiation suit in the <4 minutes he had to fix the warp drive. I do agree, though, that by the 23rd century (even with some setbacks from the wars of the late 20th and early 21st centuries) there should have been waldoes capable of doing such work. (In the paperback, it's said that there was a robot to do repairs, but it had already been put out of action by radiation damage or something. (What? no backup robot?!?!)) ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jun 1982 20:01 PDT From: SJohnson.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Spoiler Warning - ST:TWoK (SF-Lovers #71 & #72) PAUL KARGER AT RDVAX asked, "When Spock went into the radiation chamber, why didn't he wear a protective suit? Such suits have existed since the 1940's, and surely would have been made better by the 23rd century. Why wasn't such a suit kept for emergency purposes. Alternately, why weren't there waldoes available? Again - 1940's technology." You seem to be assuming that the radiation was NUCLEAR. Perhaps this new radiation can only be cut off by a material which can not be made flexible enough for a garment. As for waldoes, there just wasn't enough time. From ihuxi!otto (George Otto) at Berkeley, "In the original TV episode of Star Trek (or was it in the pilot that was turned into the two-episode show: Menagerie) the science officer was a woman identified as "Number One." Audience reaction to this character was not positive." It was indeed the first ST pilot (there were two), which was shown to network officials. THEY decided that the public would not accept Number One, not a TV audience. In fact, they also thought that the Spock character was a bad idea, until viewers made it clear that he was one of the show's major attractions. You speak of decisions made by "Roddenberry & Company". How much involvement did Roddenberry have in this movie ? I thought I heard sometime back that he had sold his rights to ST over to Paramount (I know, I know, his name is on the credits. But "Executive Consultant" (or whatever) sounds like some legal technicality to me, not an active contribution). ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jun 1982 0142-EDT From: Gene Hastings Subject: Star Trek-spoiler Why do they show the crew readying a coffin BEFORE the battle? Or is that thing I saw something else? Gene Hastings [ What they were readying before the battle was a photon torpedo. Spock's body was placed in the casing of a torpedo for launching into space. -- Jim ] ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 1-Jul JPM@Mit-Ai #SF-LOVERS Digest V7 #2 *** EOOH *** Date: Thursday, July 1, 1982 9:24PM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V7 #2 To: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 2 Jul 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 2 Today's Topics: SF Fandom - Chicon IV, SF Books - The Deceivers & The Eureka Years & Where Time Winds Blow & The Jade Enchantress & Ellison & The Number of the Beast & "All the Lies That Are My Life", SF Topics - SF Ghetto & Politics in SF, Random Topics - Movie ratings ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14 Jun 82 20:54:22 EDT (Mon) From: Steve Bellovin Subject: "The Deceivers" "The Deceivers", by Alfred Bester, bills itself as "the true successor to THE STARS MY DESTINATION." It isn't; rather, it's the true prequel to Thanksgiving, in that it's a real turkey. The writing style is very free-flowing, the characters are improbable, and the plot even more so. It's filled with blatant and offensive racial and ethnic stereotypes, and the "science" makes no sense at all. But the part likely to offend everyone on this list is a computer-query sequence. Think about it -- it's the 27th century, the computers are semi-sentient and talk among themselves. So, when the hero wants to ask his computer (via an EEG-like link) where his true love is, he says "'Program Problem APB Demi Jeroux Print Absolute Address.'... He know that 'an absolute address' in computer circles demanded the exact storage location where the referenced operand is to be found, and no weaseling before, behind, between, above, below and out of the imperative." Worse than that, the program is in BASIC! (A partial listing is included....) Well, I'm not going to object to Bester buying himself a micro. Nor do I object to it influencing his stories. But he should try to do a better job of it. Never mind -- the book isn't worth even this much space in the Digest; I'm only bothering in the hope of sparing other fans of "The Stars My Destination" and "The Demolished Man" from wading through this. --Steve Bellovin University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jun 82 2:20-PDT From: mclure at SRI-UNIX Subject: sf column SCIENCE FICTION By Roland J. Green (c) 1982 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service) Opinions differ about how old science fiction is. Some aggressive types would enroll Homer and Plato among the founding fathers. Others prefer Mary Shelley (''Frankenstein'') or Hugo Gernsback (Amazing Stories magazine). Few deny that SF has a considerable history. ''The Eureka Years,'' edited by Annette McComas (Bantam paperback, $3.50), is a valuable contribution to recording that history. In 1949 the late J. Francis McComas and Anthony Boucher founded the Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction in Eureka, Calif. During the first five years until McComas' retirement in 1954, F&SF was probably the most innovative magazine in the field. It discovered or developed at least a baker's dozen of new writers, including Richard Matheson, the late Philip K. Dick, Zenna Henderson, Poul Anderson and Gordon Dickson, as well as extensively publishing already established writers such as L. Sprague de Camp, Theodore Sturgeon and Ray Bradbury. The book itself is an assortment of stories, articles, correspondence, and anecdotes by the editor, McComas' widow. Many of the stories are already well-known (what respectable SF collection does not have Sturgeon's ''The Hurkle is a Happy Beast''?) or significant mostly for what the authors later became. On the other hand, there is also a virtually unknown Andre Norton story and Manly Wade Wellman's first John the Minstrel story, among other treasures. In fact, describing this book rapidly becomes a repetition of ''among other treasures'' because it is so filled with them. There are lists of each year's prominent books, in which novels this reviewer grew up on are hailed as new breakthroughs; one notes that a whole year in the early 1950s might produce less published SF than a couple of months in any year since 1978! There are familiar complaints about how poor distribution is afflicting sales. There is a section of rejection letters any would-be SF writer or teacher of SF writing ought to memorize religiously. This book, in short, records a notable achievement as well as an act of faith in the future of American SF when that future was by no means assured. The days when such acts were laying the foundations of SF are rapidly slipping out of living memory; they badly need recording in more books like this one. It would be an oversimplification to call Robert Holdstock's ''Where Time Winds Blow'' (TimescapePocket Books, $2.95 paperback) a ''typical British SF novel.'' However, the emphasis on characterization, the literate savoring of language, and the somewhat uncertain pacing all seem to be found more often in SF novels that start their career on the far side of the Atlantic. Holdstock, nonetheless, has made a good book of his two interwoven stories. One story tells the search for the secret of the Time Winds, fierce cyclonic storms that sweep across a far-distant planet's surface and snatch cities, machines, and researchers across time. The other story is the complex relationship of three of these researchers, two men and a woman. They emerge both as believable in terms of their own society and understandable by the book's 20th century readers. In E. Hoffman Price's graceful fantasy ''The Jade Enchantress'' (Del ReyBallantine, $2.75 paperback), a minor Chinese goddess begins the story by seeking a mortal lover, a shrewd young farmer. Price tells what follows with wit, sympathy for all his characters, a profound knowledge of T'ang Dynasty China that never slows the brisk pacing, and a delightful savoring of Chinese philosophy, sexual mores, magic and cuisine. Along with Price's ''The Devil Wives of Li Fong'' (also a Ballantine paperback), this book recalls the Judge Dee mysteries of Robert Van Gulik - an extraordinarily effective use of another time and culture to bring a whole new dimension to an existing genre. This year Chicago plays host to the annual World Science Fiction Convention Sept. 2-6 at the Hyatt Regency Chicago. Guests of honor are Australian writer A. Bertram Chandler, American artist Frank Kelly Freas, and longtime SF fan Lee Hoffman. Memberships are $50 through July 15; thereafter $75 at the door. Write Chicon IV, Box A3120, Chicago, Ill. 60690. ------------------------------ Date: Wed 30-Jun-1982 10:40-EDT From: Bill Russell Subject: The Number of the Beast I just heard an ad on the radio (WNEW-FM 102.7) for this book by Heinlein. It was described as a "new" best-selling mass market paperback, and as "wicked and wonderfull"! This is the first time that I can remember that a SF book has been advertised on radio. Has anyone else heard this ad? ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jul 1982 19:04:47 EDT (Thursday) From: Ralph Muha Subject: Ellison's Accident In one of his recent stories, "All The Lies That Are My Life", Ellison tells the tale of an SF author who leaves a videotape will. In the story, the author is killed in an automobile accident on an LA freeway... ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 1982 03:54:19-PDT From: decvax!duke!uok!jejones at Berkeley Subject: Anthony Villiers Hmm...I thought that Anthony Villiers was a character (murder victim?) in the Wendell Urth story "The Dying Night", in *Asimov's Mysteries*. James Jones duke!uok!jejones (formerly ihuxl!jej) [ This message is in reference to the contribution in volume 5, issue 63, describing Anthony Villiers as a character in a series by Alexei Panshin. -- Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 28 June 1982 14:32 est From: Spratt.Multics at MIT-MULTICS Subject: Fantasy and Science Fiction authors who hate F&SF. I recall Harlan Ellison making desperate efforts to dissociate himself from the SF genre in which he had been so successful. At the time I thought it a curious and singular abberation. Recently, however, I ran across a couple of SF authors who have put themselves into an even more curious (but related) position. They are active SF genre authors who seem to think no one (but themselves, I suppose) writes SF worth reading. The first of these I read was George Zebrowski's Macrolife. It's a well-written book with a theme encompassing all of time and space. In the afterword, Zebrowski explains where the ideas for the book came from and in the course of this explanation quotes from an essay titled "Science Fiction is Too Conservative", written in 1961 by everybody's favorite futurist, G. Harry Stine. The gist of the quotation is that most of the really innovative speculation is done outside of the SF genre. Zebrowsky goes on to affirm this and state that the situation is even worse "today" than it was in 1961 (adding a gratuitous "I'm sorry to say"). The strong implication he makes is that his book, Macrolife, is different from what everybody else is writing in SF in that it does speculate innovatively. The second book is titled "The Golden Nagimata", and it's written by Jessical Amanda Salmonson (I'm not sure of the spelling on the name). She makes her remarks in an afterword, as well. Her view is that writers of Fantasy and Science Fiction don't write stories which are "rich" and "interesting". She says that, as she desires to write stories which are interesting, she doesn't allow other SF authors to influence her. The one thing I find really curious in all of this is that I enjoyed the writings of all three authors. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jun 82 13:00-PDT From: mclure at SRI-UNIX Subject: Re: Fantasy and Science Fiction authors who hate F&SF. If you've read enough of Harlan's non-fiction/intros/etc and followed him for awhile, you'll see that it is completely reasonable for him to hate being pigeon-holed. In fact, it is his trademark to complain about such things. Mainstream authors have done similar things. Vladimir Nabokov was ruthlessly anti-critic. He urged that only his readers should try to interpret his work. Harlan is a versatile author, capable of producing excellent work in fantasy, SF, horror, mainstream, and mixings of the genres. I don't see a reason why his books should always appear in the SF section of the bookstore. ------------------------------ Date: 28 June 1982 16:32 est From: Spratt.Multics at MIT-MULTICS Subject: Re: Fantasy and Science Fiction authors who hate F&SF. I guess I failed to make the major thrust of my note clear. I'm not so interested in yet another go around of justifications for Ellison's position. The more extreme (and arrogant) situation which Zebrowsky and Salmonson place themselves in is what I find fascinating. In fact, I neglected to state the question which all of this was a lead-up to: What other authors have stated similar positions? Certainly, Ellison's position is not particularly similar in that I don't re-call him stating that he was the only (or even one of the very few) who wrote "good" SF. It \has/ struck me as odd that he, alone out of a large number of authors, is so strident in his renunciation of SF-authordom. Certainly other authors have "suffered" from being narrowly categorized in SF. L. Sprague de Camp's historical fiction must have a much smaller audience than it would if he weren't known only as an SF author. Asimov, while quite famous as an SF author, seems to have done fairly well in both the Mystery and Science Fact genres, without recourse to bitter soliloquies on current practices in the publishing industry. Other, admittedly less potent, examples of quietly multi-faceted authors come to mind involving Bradbury, LeGuin, and Wolfe. It just occurred to me that Vonnegut made some comments about dissociating himself from SF. So, for my second question, did K. Vonnegut make such comments, and if so, what did he say? Yours in contentiousness, Lindsey Leroy Spratt. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 1982 22:26:14-EDT From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX Subject: Re: political SF Oh goody, another topic to flame on! To begin with, I was just as disgusted as APPLE at the item I read concerning the attempt of a group to produce [progressive SF]. It is much too broad to say that politics makes bad fiction; let's try modifying that to read "codified politics makes bad fiction". I can't answer for all of the writers nominated by Minow, but I would observe that in all of their works that I am familiar with the quality is related to the subordination of [politics] to plot. Shaw's best material, for instance, reflects individual human concerns; the pieces that try to follow any political \doctrine/ are frequently awkward and dull. (Similarly, Sturgeon claims not to have originated the remark that Wells sold his birthright for a pot of message.) This is true even of Brunner; when he tries to get a message across, he gets boring. The thing that particularly appalled me about this group (Red Shift, I think they called themselves---what an obviously one-sided name) is that their public utterances, as quoted, show a severe ignorance of much of SF. To consider Heinlein, Asimov, and Doc Smith as representative of the whole field (and to call Asimov a militarist!) is show the shallowness of one's knowledge. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jun 1982 1404-EDT From: John R. Covert Subject: R-13 How do you tell the difference between a 12- and a 13-year-old? Few of them, except military dependents, have any form of identification. R isn't enforced very well either, but R-13 would be unenforceable unless the movie industry wanted to issue ID cards. The whole system is voluntary, anyway. R seems to vary between "under 16 and under 18" not allowed from place to place, anyway. Does anyone know if any towns/states have ordinances/laws requiring theatres to enforce the R-limit? [ This message is in reference to the contribution in volume 5, issue 63, on the controversy surrounding the rating of the movie Poltergeist -- Jim ] ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 3-Jul JPM@Mit-Ai #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #3 *** EOOH *** Date: Saturday, July 3, 1982 12:17AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #3 To: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 3 Jul 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 3 Today's Topics: SF Movies - Blade Runner ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 Jun 1982 2216-EDT From: Steven H. Gutfreund Subject: Blade Runner For a while this summer I was worried that Hollywood was redefining what was good SF. People were saying that Star Wars, Star Drek, and ET was good SF, and not juvenile sentimentalism targeted for the amassed TV escapeees. I was afraid that "real" SF could never be a movie. Blade Runner is a superb execution of a Phil K. Dick story. I was utterly amazed to see the instatiation of a society/world that previously only haunted the further corners of my SF collection. Perhaps I don't read enough Dick, but I felt that here was a real "Brunneresqe" society, and a "serious" SF plot, not a space-opera. The special effects were stunning. I was only too glad that turnbull turned them down as the film progressed or I would have been unable to concentrate on the plot. While my enthusiasm for this film (I stick it up there with the better Kurosowa's I have seen - thought not as deep) may be a reflection on my SF tastes. I heartily recommend it to all who have been in search of serious SF on the screen. Queries: What is it about the Baader-Meinhoff that is so spooky? Is it something about German terrorists that make them more evil than Sauron himself? What were the opening scene explosions in the city supposed to signify? or were they explosions? What is the status of Earth vis-a-vie the colonies in this film? is it only replicants that inhabit the stars? Is earth a backwaters home for human types? Who is fighting out around orion? - Steven Gutfreund ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jun 1982 15:29:39-PDT From: decvax!minow at Berkeley Subject: Blade Runner -- mini review, no spoiler Nano review: wierd. Micro review: very wierd. Review: The file is well worth seeing for its sense of demented atmosphere. It gave the viewer the disquieting feeling of having been dropped into a foreign country; somewhat like Bergman's "Silence." But although it fit well with the overall atmosphere, I was annoyed by the obscenly detailed violence and sexless sexism as well as by the unmotivated ending [I said, no spoiler]. In all, see the film for the atmosphere (someone described it as Los Angeles after all the rich people left), for the satiric references to Star Wars, and for the feeling of madness; but don't expect an "ordinary" SF movie or a happy evening. Martin Minow decvax!minow @ Berkeley ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jun 82 20:56-PDT From: mclure at SRI-UNIX Subject: Review: Blade Runner BLADE RUNNER By Richard Freedman Newhouse News Service (UNDATED) According to ''Blade Runner,'' Los Angeles 40 years in the future will be even more depressing than it is now. True, the people will have neon-handled umbrellas so they don't crash into each other on the overcrowded streets. But they'll need them, because the rain never stops. Worse, there are rogue ''replicants'' - large, synthetic human beings created by a genetic engineering company to do the dirty work of the cosmos. They look just the way you and I would look if we were movie actors, but they're immensely powerful and emotionally immature. Four of them have escaped when the film begins, so Blade Runner Deckard (Harrison Ford in his first movie role since ''Raiders of the Lost Ark'') is assigned to track them down and eliminate them. A blade runner, it seems, is not an ice-skating champion but a detective who knows a replicant when he sees one, and can terminate him - more usually her - with extreme prejudice. Deckard is coaxed out of retirement to deal with this quartet of reclusant replicants, of whom the meanest is Batty (Rutger Hauer) and the sexiest is Rachael (Sean Young). Batty is extra mean because he resents the fact that replicants are programmed to have a four-year lifespan and his time is nearly up. Rachael is so sexy that Deckard can't believe she's a full-fledged replicant. But meanwhile he must stalk his prey down the mean streets of a modernistic city with towering skyscrapers but apparently no air conditioning, and in which it is alway either foggy or pouring. ''Blade Runner'' tries to do for the futuristic private eye picture what ''Outland'' did for the futuristic Western. Sean Young wears the sort of puffy-shouldered jackets affected by the late Joan Crawford, with a hairstyle to match, while Harrison Ford imitates the Sam Spade-Philip Marlowe shamus of the 1940s film noir, right down to the laconic voiceover narration and the gunning-down of dubious females. Unfortunately, Ford lacks the acting authority Sean Connery brought to his space age cowboy hero in ''Outland,'' making it very difficult to care if he gets the replicants before they get him. So his big love scene with Rachael, for instance, makes them both look like robots. If it weren't for the haunting, bluesy score of Vangelis (whose music for ''Chariots of Fire'' won a deserved Oscar), this would be the least stimulating moment of passion ever to appear in an R-rated movie. And for long stretches at a time, both are forgotten in favor of an equally baffling subplot involving Sebastian (William Sanderson), a hayseed genius at genetic engineering, and Pris (Daryl Hannah), a blonde waif with evil designs on him and his midget factory. ''Blade Runner'' was directed by Ridley Scott, who also directed ''Alien.'' But the only thing the two pictures have in common is a fascination with electronic gadgetry. The real hero here is production designer Lawrence G. Paull, who has given this essentially empty film a far snazzier look than it deserves. ''BLADE RUNNER.'' A gloomily futuristic tough-guy detective flick with Harrison Ford as the iron-jawed shamus in charge of ridding Los Angeles of some rogue ''replicants,'' or clone-like robots. A robot could have directed as well. Rated R. Two stars. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 82 16:16-PDT From: mclure at SRI-UNIX Subject: Review: Bladerunner BLADE RUNNER By Janet Maslin c. 1982 N.Y. Times News Service NEW YORK - The view of the future offered by Ridley Scott's muddled yet fascinating ''Blade Runner'' is as intricately detailed as anything a science-fiction film has yet envisioned. The year is 2019, the place Los Angeles, the landscape garish but bleak. The city is a canyon bounded by industrial towers, some of which belch fire. Advertising billboards, which are everywhere, now feature lifelike electronic people who are the size of giants. The police cruise both horizontally and vertically on their patrol routes, but there is seldom anyone to arrest because the place is much emptier than it used to be. In an age of space travel, anyone with the wherewithal has presumably gone away. Only the dregs remain. ''Blade Runner'' begins with a stunning shot of this futuristic city, accompanied by the rumbling of Vangelis's eerie, highly effective score. It proceeds to tell the story of Rick Deckard and his battle with the replicants, a story based on Philip K. Dick's novel ''Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?'' In brief: replicants are manmade creatures that possess all human attributes except feelings. They have been built to serve as slaves in Earth colonies that are Off World, i.e. elsewhere. Whenever the replicants rebel, the job of eliminating them is given to a special, skilled hunter. This expert is called a blade runner. Rick Deckard is the best of the blade runners, now retired. He is as hard-boiled as any film noir detective, with much the same world view. But when he is told, at the beginning of ''Blade Runner,'' that an especially dangerous group of replicants is on the loose, and is offered the job of hunting them, he can't say no. Even in the murkiest reaches of science-fiction lore, a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do. ''Blade Runner'' follows Deckard's love affair with a beautiful replicant named Rachael, who is special assistant to the high-level industrialist who created her. It also follows Deckard's tracking down of the runaways, most notably their white-haired, demonic-looking leader, Batty (Rutger Hauer). These events involve quite a bit of plot, but they're nothing in the movie's excessively busy overall scheme. ''Blade Runner'' is crammed to the gills with much more information than it can hold. Science-fiction aficionados may find ''Blade Runner'' a wonderfully meticulous movie and marvel at the comprehensiveness of its vision. Even those without a taste for gadgetry cannot fail to appreciate the degree of effort that has gone into constructing a film this ambitious and idiosyncratic. The special effects are by Douglas Trumbull, Richard Yuricich and David Dryer, and they are superb. So is Laurence G. Paull's production design. The ''Blade Runner'' is a film that special effects could have easily run away with, and run away with it they have. It's also a mess, at least as far as its narrative is concerned. Almost nothing is explained coherently, and the plot has great lapses, from the changeable nature of one key character to the frequent disappearances of another. The story lurches along awkwardly, helped not at all by some ponderous stabs at developing Deckard's character. As an old-fashioned detective cruising his way through the space age, Deckard is both tedious and outre. At several points in the story, Deckard is called on to wonder whether Rachael has feelings. This seems peculiar, because the icy, poised Rachael, played by Sean Young as a 40's heroine with space-age trimmings, seems a lot more expressive than Deckard, who is played by Harrison Ford. Ford is, for a movie this darkly fanciful, rather a colorless hero, fading too easily into the bleak background. And he is often upstaged by Rutger Hauer, who in this film and in ''Night Hawks'' appears to be specializing in fiendish roles. He is properly cold-blooded here, but there is something almost humorous behind his nastiness. In any case, he is by far the most animated performer in a film intentionally populated by automatons. Scott, who made his mark in ''Alien'' by showing a creature bursting forth from the body of one of its victims, tries hard to hit the same note here. One scene takes place in an eyeball factory. Two others show Deckard in vicious, sadistic fights with women. One of these fights features strange calisthenics and unearthly shrieks. The end of the film is both a bloodbath and a sentimental shambles. Scott can't have it both ways, any more than he can successfully overdecorate a film that lacks strong characters or a strong story. That hasn't stopped him from trying, even if perhaps it should have. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 3-Jul JPM@Mit-Ai #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #4 *** EOOH *** Date: Saturday, July 3, 1982 1:53AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #4 To: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 4 Jul 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 4 Today's Topics: SF Books - Stand on Zanzibar & Puppet Masters & Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep & Dream Park & Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan & Rite of Passage & Software & The World of Null-A, SF Movies - Blade Runner & Time After Time & Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, Random Topics - Violence in Movies ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 Jun 1982 1:19:47 EDT (Thursday) From: Ben Littauer Subject: book reviews I've had a chance to read a fair bit of science fiction these past few weeks, so I thought I'd submit some mini-reviews of some of what I've read in the hope that it might inspire others to do the same (I always like to see pointers to stuff which might interest me), or even spark some discussion. Ratings are on a scale of four stars. Brunner -- Stand on Zanzibar **** I tried to read this about three time through college, and I never got more than about fifty pages into it before quitting. This book starts up rather slowly, and unless you have a large block of vacant time you shouldn't begin. This is one LONG book. It repays the startup investment with much interest, however, so I would heartily recommand it. Basically an overpopulation book, but that is an understatement of gross proportions. Brunner really does paint a vivid picture of his world through his somewhat unconventional style. There is an absolutely wonderful character named Chad C. Mulligan, a social anthropologist, who writes marvelous tirades on the stupidity of the human race. The book is worth it just for Mulligan's writings, but the plot of the main story line is also very good. Dick -- Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep *** This one has the cover BLADE RUNNER. This is a very odd book, and if the movie is really representative of the book, I'll be very surprised. This edition has a caveat at the beginning stating that the book only inspired the movie, so I'd expect the movie to take DADoES only at a superficial level and leave all the hard questions posed in the book out. The plot is the adventures of a bounty hunter out to get illegal androids. One of the important questions is whether these androids deserve to live. I predict that the movie will take the first and leave the second. Worth reading. Heinlein -- Puppet Masters *** I read this when I saw it mentioned in all the FRIDAY reviews on SFL. I enjoyed it, but I found (as I often do with Heinlein) that the anti-communist propaganda was a little overbearing (and yes, I do know that it is not a recent book). Plot deals with parasitic ETs which are trying to take over the Earth by taking over people's bodies. McIntyre -- Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan ** Much discussion of this has preceded me. I liked it, but I can't get very excited about novelizations of movies. Probably would have gotten three stars if not for this. Niven/Barnes -- Dream Park *** This is a good one for those of us who aren't D&Ders. Gives some feeling for what D&D might be all about (I can't say for sure since I've never played). A decent mystery, too. But I do miss the heyday of Known Space (there is at least on passing reference to KS in DP). Panshin -- Rite of Passage *** Another oldie but goodie. I have mixed feeling about this one. On the one hand, I did like it a lot, but on the other I felt that it was somewhat "thin" and unchallenging. Is this a juvenile do you suppose? Rucker -- Software ** "preserve your software ... all the rest is meat!" I like that. A decent adventure story about robot intelligence and human intelligence. Two stars because I felt a little dissatisfied with the ending, and not enough feeling of what the world is like. I've seen that Rucker has a non-fiction book out along the lines of Godel, Escher, Bach (which is my nominee for book of the decade). Ruckers is called something like . Anyone can tell me about it? Van Vogt -- The World of Null-A ** I read the revised edition with special preface by the author extolling the virtues of the philosophy of General Semantics (also known as Null-A). Reading the book did not give me any real idea what Null-A is all about. A friend of mine explained to me that Null-A is a plot device used by Van Vogt to motivate his characters. This is about the same conclusion I had come to. I tend to be suspicious when an author has to tell you that his book will introduce you to concepts that are the very basis of sanity, etc., etc. I might have enjoyed this more without the preface. ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jul 1982 1417-CDT From: CS.EMERSON at UTEXAS-20 Subject: Bladerunner Comments (Not a Spoiler) I saw Bladerunner the other night. I thought it was fairly good but I did not enjoy it as much as STTWOK or ET. Somehow the transition between scenes was poor. I also found it a little too violent and gory. It was fairly suspenseful in parts and the influence of Ridley Scott was evident: everything was dark, gloomy, seedy, and decrepit just as in Alien. The special effects showing the future Los Angeles were very impressive in my estimation. (With all of the commercialism and blaring advertisements the setting reminds me a little of Pohl and Kornbluth's Space Merchants.) However, the movie was set in 2019 which strikes me as a little soon for having interstellar travel as implied by the references to "Offworld". ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jun 82 12:18-PDT From: mclure at SRI-UNIX Subject: violence in movies BLADE RUNNER By Glenn Collins c. 1982 N.Y. Times News Service NEW YORK - The film is called ''Blade Runner,'' a detective story set in the year 2019, and it has won praise for its lavish and detailed depiction of the Los Angeles of the future. The movie also contains scenes of grisly sadism that are perhaps unequalled in recent popular entertainment: -Roy Batty, a ''replicant,'' or artificial human, slowly crushes the skull of his human creator, to the accompaniment of Dolby sound effects. -The detective character played by Harrison Ford shoots a ''replicant'' woman in the back several times. She crashes through five large windows, and the audience is treated to clinical views of her bloody wounds and her corpse's staring eyes. -Batty breaks two fingers of the character played by Ford. -The finale of the film depicts the terrorizing of one or another protagonist, including the shooting of a ''replicant'' woman in the torso. We see her violently writhing and dying, and the film then cuts back again and again to the sight of her bloody corpse. Then Batty is shown putting his finger in the wound and licking her blood. Although the debate about violence in films and on television has continued for years, new concern has arisen from the release last month of the federal government's update of the 1972 surgeon general's report on the adverse effects of televised violence on the young, and from the attention given in recent weeks to the trial of John W. Hinckley Jr., whom prosecutors charged modeled his behavior on the film ''Taxi Driver.'' ''Blade Runner'' contains many rough-'em-up scenes that might be expected in any classic private-eye vehicle. But the vivid depiction of gore, and the plot emphasis on aggressive behavior, seems to raise to a new level a trend evident in many recent mass-audience science-fiction or fantasy movies that attract large youthful followings. These films are not billed as horror movies or shock epics like ''Texas Chainsaw Massacre,'' in which bloody scenes are often expected by the audiences attracted to them. Many of these movies were seen by children, brought to theaters by their parents despite a PG rating. ''Blade Runner'' is rated R, but is expected to draw a youthful following because of its science-fiction theme, the presence of Harrison Ford, its score by Vangelis, who composed the ''Chariots of Fire'' theme, and the direction by Ridley Scott, whose last effort was the popular ''Alien.'' Several film makers, when asked about gratuitous violence, deplored it while trying to rationalize the gore in their own films. Psychologists interviewed emphasized the harmful effects of vividly depicted aggression. ''Gratuitous bloodshed and violence is dangerous.'' said Scott. ''I think it does inspire violence. Children must be affected by it . It's inevitable.'' Scott agreed that moviemakers are currently obliged to show bloody scenes. ''I think the average thriller these days enters a gratuitous area, for increasing box office sales,'' he said. Commenting about excessive violence, he said: ''That kind of thing, I think it denigrates the whole industry.'' How, then, did he defend the bloodiness of ''Blade Runner''? ''Well I don't think the film is gratuitous in terms of being a detective story,'' he said. ''If you have that kind of story, violence is going to occur.'' But why did the film go in a such a gory direction? Other detective films have found alernative ways to suggest violence. ''It was to show the power of the replicants,'' he said. ''The violence involved in each instance was to show how hard it was to stop them.'' Scott expressed dismay that his film might be viewed as excessively violent. ''We kept it restricted,'' he said. ''This was the cut version. The demonstration of violence in the scenes was cut back.'' What about the sadistic breaking of fingers? ''Oh,'' he answered, ''the breaking of the fingers - we went wide on that one. People think you are seeing these things, but all you really hear is the sound of the fingers breaking.'' Why was it necessary to keep returning to the bloody torso of the murdered replicant woman, and Batty tasting her blood? ''But he has lost his mate,'' responded Scott. ''The blood is a trigger point for him. He touches the blood and uses the blood as a warrior might use war paint. The Indians used to do that, you know.'' Nicholas Meyer, who directed ''Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan,'' and the 1979 film ''Time After Time,'' agrees that many movies are too gory. ''Lots of movies are gratuitously violent,'' he said. ''They pander to audiences - certainly, it's a form of pornography.'' Why, then, did he include the scene in the new ''Star Trek'' in which creatures crawl bloodily out of a crewman's ear? ''It wasn't as violent as it could have been,'' he said. ''It was a moment of going 'boo.''' Wouldn't the point have been made in a less gory way only a few years ago? ''I can't answer that question,'' he said. ''I have no explanation for the blood. More would have been too much, and less wouldn't have been enough. We got off the blood pretty quick.'' Was he concerned that children would be disturbed by the scorpion scene, or by the sight of the bloody corpses in the space station? ''It's a PG movie,'' he said. ''I never thought that either 'Star Trek' or 'Time After Time' should be seen by young children.'' When asked whether he was aware that many children were seeing the new ''Star Trek,'' he said, ''You can't blame the film maker for the parents who don't heed the rating system.'' Indeed, most of the movies in question are rated PG. However, many parents complain that they do not have the time or the financial resources to preview all movies seen by their children, and that peer-group pressure exerts a powerful force on youngsters to see movies parents may not approve of. ''People prefer to blame movies for the discretion that parents fail to exercise with their own children,'' commented Meyer. ''There is a rating system, and is it the fault of the film makers that parents don't honor it?'' He added: ''Look, blood has been a theatrical staple for hundreds of years. Read 'Titus Andronicus' - it's far more violent than anything we've seen on the screen. Talk of violence, what about 'Lear'?'' ''The people who make movies justify violence by saying that Shakespeare did it, or that it's somehow socially beneficial,'' said Dr. Leonard Berkowitz, professor of psychology at the University of Wisconsin, who has done many studies on violence and aggression. Berkowitz said, however, that the adverse effects of the graphic depiction of violence on audiences is well documented. The recent report prepared by the National Institute of Mental Health concluded that there was ''overwhelming'' scientific evidence that ''excessive'' violence on television leads directly to aggression and violent behavior among children and teen-agers. Berkowitz said that the effects of violence on audiences were threefold. ''First,'' he said, ''it makes audiences in general less horrified by, and more indifferent to, violence. Secondly, audiences may learn the lesson that violence is approved behavior. Third, some can become stimulated by it.'' Why do film makers choose the gory option? ''It's done because there is action involved,'' he said, ''and it's done because there are people who enjoy the sight of violence, and producers are catering to those tastes to get more people into the theater.'' Moviemakers, Berkowitz said, ''feel they have to be ever more extreme to give a charge to audiences.'' He continued: ''As people become more and more inured to violence, producers feel they have to supply more and more of it. So, 'Rocky III' is more violent than 'Rocky I.' Only awhile ago, people were deploring the gratuitous violence in 'Bonnie and Clyde,' and yet one thinks of the film differently now in comparison to recent movies.'' Isaac Asimov, the longtime science-fiction author, believes that the presence of gratuitous violence in recent science-fiction movies, and in any movie, is a moral issue: ''Seeing these things, we get inured to violence, and that's not good for our society. A callous population is a dangerous population.'' He added: ''The Greek or Shakespearean portrayal of violence was not for the sake of violence; violence illuminated human motivation. But now in these violent movies there is no attempt to understand the causes, consequences and implications of violence. There is no higher art in these films than seeing a hanging, or an auto da fe.'' As a science-fiction pioneer, Asimov said he was disturbed that blood and gore had so frequenly been injected into movies about the future. ''It's not so much a betrayal, but a trivialization,'' he said. ''When you're trying to deal with something as important as the future of humanity,'' he said, ''and you simply use the future as the background for a freak show animated by a bunch of carnival tricks, that's a disappointment. I would like to see a movie about serious people in the future facing the kind of reasonable problems that real human people must face.'' ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 4-Jul JPM@Mit-Ai #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #5 *** EOOH *** Date: Sunday, July 4, 1982 3:33AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #5 To: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 5 Jul 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 5 Today's Topics: SF Movies - The Thing & Star Trek: The Motion Picture, Random Topics - Commercials at the movies ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 29 Jun 82 09:25:15 EDT From: dyer at NBS-VMS Subject: The Thing THE THING Rated R Nano-review : One of the summer's missable movies. If you've read the short story by John W. Campbell, Jr., then you don't need to see THE THING. Micro-review : A research station in Antartica discovers an alien frozen in ice. When the alien thaws out, the men discover that the alien is still alive. It also has the peculiar property of being able to imitate other life-forms down to the cellular level, by eating them. Before the crew of the research station discovers this, the alien has eaten several dogs, and has /become/ several people (No one knows, of course, just /who/ has been turned into an alien, because the creature is a perfect mimic.) In a series of very explicit gruesome scenes, the aliens are ferreted out and destroyed. A way of telling humans from imitations is developed. However, the last scene of the movie does not really seem like an ending -- it is almost as if the shooting crew had run out of film and decided to stop. There is no resolution -- will the earth be invaded by the THING all over again? This movie is another example of what can happen when a producer gets carried away with special effects. Characterization has been thrown aside in an attempt to 'gross out' the audience with slithering, slimy tentacles and violent scenes where (more often than not) yet another character/monster is destroyed. What's a research outpost in Antarctica doing with a grenade launcher and a flamethrower? I don't recommend THE THING. Its a poor imitation of ALIEN, with few redeeming characteristics. The film's only shock value is that of displaying new and bizarre ways in which to kill off characters. The ending, which might have been meant to be thought-provoking, is simply a cheat. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 82 16:35-PDT From: mclure at SRI-UNIX Subject: The Thing THE THING By Richard Freedman Newhouse News Service (UNDATED) That fellow sitting next to you on the sofa slurping beer and watching television - is he really your husband and the father of your children, or a clever clone who looks and acts just like him? Does it matter? He could be a ''replicant'' from ''Blade Runner,'' or (gasp!) a Thing from ''The Thing.'' Each of these new movies could be a clone of the other. Although ''Blade Runner'' is set in futuristic Los Angeles and ''The Thing'' in Antarctica last winter, they share common themes and common problems. Both deal with the ultimate paranoid nightmare that we don't really know who even our nearest and dearest are. And both submerge the acting talents of their leading men - Harrison Ford in ''Blade Runner'' and Kurt Russell in ''The Thing'' - beneath a mass of special effects. Come to think of it, Clint Eastwood fares no better in ''Firefox.'' This may be the summer of the computerized matinee idol. Furthermore, ''The Thing'' is adapted from the 1938 pulp science fiction shocker ''Who Goes There?'' by John W. Campbell Jr., which was made into a 1951 B-movie by Christian Nyby and Howard Hawks called ''The Thing from Another World.'' It also supplied the basic gimmick for both ''Invasion of the Body Snatchers'' films and ''Alien.'' Maybe it's time this particular property was given a proper burial. What's buried instead in ''The Thing'' is a loathsome mass of protoplasm that crash-landed in Antarctica 100,000 years ago and has lain there encased in ice ever since. Inadvertently released by some Norwegian scientists, it comes back to scare a dozen Americans - working for the National Science Foundation - out of their longjohns. The film's opening sequence is brilliant, as we see a black-and-white husky madly running for its life from a helicopter pilot determined either to shoot it or blast it with dynamite. Instead of phoning the ASPCA, the American scientists learn to their sorrow why this cowering canine must be destroyed. The scene is also brilliantly lit, with the sun glaring mercilessly on the Antarctic ice mass. The rest of ''The Thing,'' unfortunately, is so murkily photographed, either outdoors at night or within the labs and barracks of the scientists, that it's very difficult to tell one from the other, except that MacReady (Kurt Russell) seems to be the most important. At least he's one of two survivors by the end of the film. Otherwise, the characters are so characterless they can only be distinguished by whether they wear beards or not. When they don their parkas to venture into the 40-below cold, there's no telling them apart. No matter. The whole point of ''The Thing,'' as a German Romantic philosopher might have put it, is the Thing itself, brainchild of special-effects genius Rob Bottin. Bottin has created some of the most horrific and disgusting makeup ever to appear on screen for a blob that gets into your blood serum, replicates all your cells, and then discards the original you as casually as a tangerine skin. This naturally causes some consternation among scientists A. Wilford Brimley, T.K. Carter, David Clennon, Keith David, Richard Dysart etc., since they're increasingly unable to tell who is a pal and who is a Thing in pal's clothing. Occasionally the Thing erupts out of the men's bodies, much as the Alien in ''Alien'' burst out of John Hurt's tummy, scaring the daylights out of the survivors. As well it might. Seen au naturel, the Thing looks like a giant octopus with a skin made out of pizza with pepperoni. ''The Thing'' is directed by horror specialist John Carpenter (''Halloween''; ''Escape from New York''). He seems to have spent less time and thought creating plausible characters his actors could sink their teeth into, than creating a monster who sinks its teeth into them. If you're going to see ''The Thing'' - and don't rush - at least go before dinner. ''THE THING.'' A dozen scientists in Antarctica are devoured one by one by a horrible blob of 100,000-year-old protoplasm, which then takes on their original characteristics, thus unnerving just about everybody in the igloo. Terrific special effects, but not much else. Rated R. Two and a half stars. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jun 1982 1648-PDT From: Jim McGrath Subject: The Thing THE THING By Vincent Canby c. 1982 N.Y. Times News Service NEW YORK - John Carpenter's ''The Thing'' is a foolish, depressing, overproduced movie that mixes horror with science fiction to make something that is fun as neither one thing or the other. Sometimes it looks as if it aspired to be the quintessential moron-movie of the 80s - a virtually storyless feature composed of lots of laboratory-concocted special effects, with the actors used merely as props to be hacked, slashed, disemboweled and decapitated, finally to be eaten and then regurgiated as - guess what? - more laboratory-concocted special effects. There may be a metaphor in all this, but I doubt it. Carpenter has demonstrated that he can make good, comparatively plain, old-fashioned scare-movies (''Halloween'') and effective suspense thrillers (''Escape From New York''), but he seems to lose his own head when he combines two or more genres, as he did in ''The Fog'' and does again here. For the record, it should be immediately pointed out that this new film bears only a superficial resemblance to Howard Hawks's 1951 classic ''The Thing,'' though both were inspired by the same source material, John W. Campbell's story, ''Who Goes There?'' The setting is a small, self-contained, American scientific base in Antarctica, and ''the thing'' is a creature from outer space, frozen for 100,000 years in the south polar icecap and accidently thawed by some unfortunate Norwegian scientists. One of the film's major problems is that the creature has no identifiable shape of its own. It's simply a mass of bloody protoplasm that, as someone solemnly explains, ''imitates other forms of life'' and thus, for much of the movie, walks around looking like ordinary people. In this respect, Carpenter's ''The Thing'' seems itself to be imitating other forms of movies, particularly ''Invasion of the Body Snatchers.'' Kurt Russell, Richard Dysart, A. Wilfred Bramley, T. K. Carter, Peter Maloney, David Clennon and other worthy people appear on the screen, but there's not a single character to act. All that the performers are required to do is to react with shock and terror from time to time. Like all such movies that don't trust themselves to keep an audience interested by legitimate dramatic means, ''The Thing'' shows us too much of ''the thing'' too soon, so that it has no place to go. It plods in circles from one mock-horror effect to the next. It's entertaining only if one's needs are met by such sights as those of a head walking around on spiderlike legs; autopsies on dogs and humans in which the innards explode to take on other, not easily identifiable forms; hand-severings, immolations, wormlike tentacles that emerge from the mouth of a severed head or two or more burned bodies fused together to look like spareribs covered with barbecue sauce. ''The Thing'' is too phony looking to be disgusting. It qualifies only as instant junk. ------------------------------ Date: 15-Jun-82 10:26:28 PDT (Tuesday) From: Newman.es at PARC-MAXC Subject: Commercials BEFORE the movies In Los Angeles, nearly every theater has a Los Angeles Times commercial before the movie. The newspaper requires it in exchange for accepting the theater's advertising. /Ron ------------------------------ Date: 16 June 1982 0106-PDT (Wednesday) From: lauren at UCLA-Security (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: Commercials during Films & ST:TMP Hmmm. It seems to me that years ago, there used to be rather specific commercials during intermissions for candy, popcorn, and other goodies. I'm not too sure that there's anything all that different about more "conventional" advertising. However, inserting commercials into a film which would not otherwise have an intermission should be a criminal offense. ---- The recent newswire story about ST:TWoK which refers to someone watching 2001 alot during the writing of ST:TMP caused me to chuckle a bit. When I was working for (gasp!) Robert Abel & Associates (the ORIGINAL effex crew for ST:TMP), the core effex group saw a number of private screenings of "classic" SF. I seem to recall watching "Forbidden Planet" and "The Forbin Project" (classic?) at Paramount, plus "Star Wars" and "2001" over at Todd-AO. One of the major people on our production team was Con Pederson, who was one of the primary effex people on 2001. Con even had a collection of the little HAL 9000 stickers that he stuck on some of the local computers. In any case, I learned alot about the design behind ST:TMP during those screenings, particularly from listening to Roddenberry and Wise. It became clear that Wise was not really a Trek fan, and Roddenberry was definitely looking for a rather "grandiose" statement rather than "another Star Trek episode". I could go on with a number of amusing anecdotes from that period, but I guess I'll pass for now ... interested parties can contact me directly. I will mention one bizarre point, however. At one stage of the production, I was assigned the task of inventing the Klingon character set for the Klingon ship displays. Just to show some of the other staff people what I was talking about sometimes, would you believe I used the Stanford (SU-AI) "Find-A-Font" catalog as a guide to the "sorts" of fonts I was talking about? Strange, but true. Of course, Abel never finished the project, and I successfully removed myself from the inner world of Star Trek. Now, if only I could get rid of this case of dilithium crystals... --Lauren-- ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 5-Jul JPM@Mit-Ai #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #6 *** EOOH *** Date: Monday, July 5, 1982 6:16AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #6 To: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 6 Jul 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 6 Today's Topics: Random Topics - Commercials at the Movies, SF TV - Series, SF Movies - The Secret of NIMH & TRON & Firefox, SF Topics - SF Ghetto, Humor - Other Hope & Genderless Video Games, SF Books - The Day After Judgment, Spoiler - The Day After Judgment ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 06/15/82 1311-EDT From: Joe Baldassini Subject: SF on TV I think the discussion of commercials during movies doesn't belong on this list, since it is non-specific to SF, and not very interesting (to me) anyway. What I'd like to discuss is science fiction on TV, specifically the lack of a current series in production. It seems to me that Laumer's Retief series would be a good candidate for a TV series (if the rights could be negotiated). Such a series could star someone like Roger Moore as Retief, and could have Mr. Magnan and a secretary as regulars, as well as a regular Groaci perhaps (though I think it would be difficult to portray one of the vile five-eyes). Guest stars could appear regularly as Ambassador's (Grossblunder, Pennywhistle, Crodfoller, etc.). There is a wealth of short stories to draw on for plots, and even a couple of novels to make movies from, when the series gets cancelled after 79 shows and becomes even more popular. The royalties from nose-flutes alone is enough to boggle the mind, and it's entirely possible that ritual grimacing could sweep the nation. Joe Baldassini ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jul 1982 1040-EDT From: PERKINS at DEC-MARLBORO Reply-to: PERKINS at DEC-MARLBORO Subject: A New Animated Film -- "The Secret of NIMH" Following is my synopsis of a batch of promotional material I received from the local United Artists people. There was also a video tape of clips from the film which I have shown to a number of people. In general, the film looks promising. The art work (though the video tape doesn't to do it justice) is impressive. I haven't seen anything on this new movie in the digest (though I've missed the last couple issues due to machine/net problems). ----- ----- ----- ----- "The Secret of NIMH," an animated film, is based on Don Bluth's adaptation of Robert C. O'Brien's Newbury Award winning book "Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of NIMH." The story line centers around the efforts of a widowed field mouse (Mrs. Brisby) to delay the impending plowing of the field where she and her children live until after her son recovers from pneumonia. Her efforts eventually bring her to a group of super (intelligent ?) rats. (There may be no connection, but in the mundane world, N.I.M.H stands for the National Institute of Mental Health!) The film's creators, Dom Bluth, Gary Goldman, and John Pomeroy all left Walt Disney Studios in 1979 to start their own animation studio. Their first release was "Banjo, the Woodplie Cat," a 30 minute TV special that was shown on ABC earlier this year. In "The Secret of NIMH," Bluth has gone back to the old Classical Animation that Disney used in "Snow White." He uses up to 96 drawings in each cel, more than 1000 backgrounds, electronically operated multiplane cameras, and multiple passes of the same film through the camera. The film took 2 1/2 years to complete. This is not Saturday morning cartoon animation. Likewise it is not computer animation. Over a million-and-a-half drawings were done to complete this 6800 foot film. Voices of the characters in "The Secret of NIMH" include such notables as Dom de Luise, Elizabeth Hartman, Peter Strauss, Derek Jacoby and John Carradine. Jerry Goldsmith composed and conducts the score. Lyrics were supplied by Paul Williams. "The Secret of NIMH" will release on July 16th by MGM/United Artists. ------------------------------ Date: 1-Jul-82 17:09-PDT From: DAUL at OFFICE Subject: Star Wars (the other hope) Maybe the "other hope" is Steven Speilberg! ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jun 1982 1257-PDT From: Craig W. Reynolds from III via Rand Subject: TRON numerology Just to add fuel to the fire over the alledged origin of TRON's name (supposedly from the PDP10 instruction "Test Right Ones and skip if Not all masked bits equaled 0", which is octal opcode 666), I thought I should point out another interesting number. Like all production companies, Disney assigns unique sequence numbers to each of their productions. TRON is Disney production number 222. And of course 666/222 is 3 which (like all integers under 100) has many well known numerological interpretations ... Also, speaking of numbers: 800-622-TRON (800-622-8766). This is your big chance to speak to the Evil MCP Himself. Call this number and have a chat with the Big Guy - call him a Bit Brain, tell him to Rezz up, tell him that Free Programs everywhere will not submit to his evil rule, make him explain the origin of the name "TRON". (This number will be active for about 10 days.) "OK you programs, look operative!" -c ------------------------------ Date: 2 July 1982 20:14 edt From: Boebert.SCOMP at MIT-MULTICS Subject: Firefox stole the trench from Star Wars... ...and Star Wars stole it from The Bridges at Toko-Ri. The title to the idea is about as clear as that to the Maltese Falcon. Earl ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jul 1982 1054-PDT From: Dave Dyer Subject: Vonnegut & SF Vonnegut has indeed made statements that dissociate him from the SF, which you can read in his essay collection "Wompeters, Foma and Granfalloons". If memory serves, he says that he doesn't like being in the science fictions genre because it is frequently mistaken for a urinal. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jul 1982 12:37:22-EDT From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX Subject: Re: authors hating SF Ellison's first problem is that he began as a particularly bratty fan and has for some time been trying to put that part of his life behind him by excoriating fans and affecting to despise anything they like. Certainly he has succeeded [outside the field], but most of his prose work is at least as alien to normal literature as Bradbury. You could call it fantasy, but that would push it even further out in the margin. The proper labels for Jessica Amanda Salmonson can't be included in this digest, but I will say for publication that she has repeatedly shown herself to be a bad-tempered, self-righteous, homosexually-biased, prig. (Note that this isn't an attack on homosexuality, but an observation that her support of it bears a striking resemblance to the Moral Majority's support of heterosexuality.) She talks about refusing to let SF authors inspire her because of their narrowness; she sings a very different tune as an anthologist. Zebrowski I'm not so familiar with, but I notice you don't mention Barry Malzberg, who makes similar attacks on SF. Stine's comments are questionable at best; like a lot of hard-headed engineers he gets really flaky outside his field. (I would say that [mainline] SF is perhaps less wildly imaginative than other areas simply because the authors put more time into developing plausibilities rather than making wild, directionless leaps into the unknown.) Frequently such criticisms come out of ignorance; there is a recent Malzberg history of the field which seems to have been written solely to support his halfwitted theses (it certainly shows that he hasn't even done basic study of the period he talks about). (No, I don't have the title, and under the circumstances I'm not going to go back and reread it to give you all an inventory as I have too much in my queue that's worth reading.) ------------------------------ Date: 2-Jul-82 9:34:35 EDT From: duntemann.wbst Subject: RE: SF Authors who covet the Mainstream Another SF luminary who renounced the field some years back was Robert Silverberg, amidst much acidic foofaraw. But he came back. They all come back. Another was Alan Brennert, who came back to write scripts for Buck Rogers. I'd love to hear of somebody who left and DIDN'T come back. I missed Zebrowski's snotty comments, as I think his fiction is bloated and dumb and don't read him anymore. But I've met the man and I think I know where he's coming from. The people who gripe, moan, and complain and (temporarily) leave are those SF writers who strive to create Literature. Spinning yarns isn't enough. They indeed want to answer cosmic questions embracing all time and all space. They want to deal with Important Issues. They want (I guess) to rub shoulders with the great writers of what we (also snottily) call the Mainstream. They want Status, Importance, all that stuff. Which is legit. Where they go wrong is in thinking they can consciously work toward such things as a goal. No way. Nobody can set out to write Literature; you tell a tale and if time proves it good enough, you've written Literature. If you haven't got it in you, or if you have but it isn't quite ready yet, you only end up sounding pompous and dumb and snotty. Many SF writers try to do it full time, no matter how hungry they get. They get looked down on by academic and the bright lights of the Mainstream, and it hurts. So they toss tomatoes at the only targets they can reach, which is the rest of us. I think they'd feel better if they had something else to hang their self-esteem on. I've been a published writer for almost ten years, but the total take on ten stories is $2800. Not a living wage. Better to make good buc as a programmer and tell tales for the hell of it. That's something I wish a few more low-mid level SF writers would do. They'd write better stories and we'd all be happier. Keep this up;p I just got on but I like it. Extra characters inserted by noisy lines, mostly, and will be corrected in time. --Jeff Duntemann ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jul 1982 0959-PDT From: Jwagner at OFFICE Subject: Genderless video games Q. What does PacMan wear while hiking? A. PacPack. (I REALLY apologize ...) ------------------------------ Date: Monday, July 5, 1982 6:16AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Subject: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The last message in this digest discusses some plot details in the novel The Day After Judgment, by James Blish. Some readers may not wish to read on. ------------------------------ Date: 13 June 1982 22:06-EDT From: Charles F. Von Rospach Subject: The Day After Judgment (possible spoiler review) Book: The Day After Judgment James Blish Avon Paperbacks, $2.50 (1982 release) Pico review: Extremely unsatisfying climax, otherwise kinda ok. Review: TDAJ is the sequel to James Blish's Satanic novel of the Armageddon 'Black Easter'. These two books (originally published 1968 and 1971) combine one third of the three part 'after such knowledge trilogy, in which Blish looks at the Black arts from a Historic 'Doctor Mirabilis', modern 'Black Easter and TDAJ', and futuristic 'A case of conscience' viewpoint. Calling Black Easter and TDAJ SF is stretching things. It is more of a fantasy which is heavily based in the reality of occult sciences. Black Easter tells the events leading up to Armageddon in our nuclear world, told from the viewpoints of a munition dealer and the sorcerer he hires to let the demons loose for an evening of evil. Once they are out, they decide to stay out and declare armageddon and stay out. TDAJ takes up where Black Easter leaves off. The world is a nuclear cesspool, with certain exception. The SAC base under Denver still exists. Certain other areas have also escaped destruction, at least temporarily. Suddenly, the SAC base finds that someone has built a base in death valley. The computer decides that it is the City of DIS, the mythical city on the outskirts of heck. The intrepids who caused this whole thing to begin decide to travel to DIS to attempt to put it all back together again, them against Satan. There is a semi-interesting nuclear attack by the SAC base, and finally a face to face confrontation between the people who opened the gates of heck and Satan himself. At this point, Satan lapses into a highly Miltonesque piece of Prose, declares that by winning the war against Heaven he really lost, and pulls all of heck back into the ground. End of armageddon, end of story, end of book. One of the most blatant Deus Ex Machina endings I have ever seen, and it ruined the whole series for me. I first read Black Easter back in 75, and have been looking for the sequel since. Now I wish I hadn't. Rating: If you are interested in the Occult, BE and TDAJ are both pretty heavily laden with tidbits of information. If you are willing to stop reading before you reach the final chapter, then TDAJ is probably a pretty good book. I would seriously recommend reading Black Easter and simply sticking with that. chuq (chuqui@mit-mc) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 7-Jul JPM@Mit-Ai #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #7 *** EOOH *** Date: Wednesday, July 7, 1982 1:50AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #7 To: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 7 Jul 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 7 Today's Topics: SF Books - Ellison Query & Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever & Colony & Voyage from Yesteryear & Crystal Singer, SF Movies - The Thing, SF Topics - SF Ghetto & Hard SF & Brain Use, Random Topics - Violence in Movies, Humor - Genderless Video Games, Spoiler - Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 30 Jun 1982 1142-PDT From: Francine Perillo Subject: Query Does anyone know whether The Glass Teat and The Glass Teat II by Harlin Ellison are currently in print? A friend of mine cannot locate copies in the Bay Area. Any suggestions as to where to look? -Francine ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jul 1982 0214-EDT From: Steven J. Zeve Subject: for all you Thomas Covenant fans out there I don't think I sent this to SF-L yet so here goes. Several weeks ago, a lecture on fantasy and science fiction was given in a town near where I live. One of the three speakers was Darrell Sweet, who does cover art for Del Rey line of SF from Ballantine Books. Mr Sweet, who did the cover art for each of the first five Thomas Covenant books by Stephen Donaldson, mentioned that he had just gotten the manuscript for the sixth book. After the lecture, I asked him when he thought that this sixth book would be available; he said he thought it would probably be out sometime in June 1983. Sweet also confirmed the rumor that Donaldson had had a big fight with his editor about the fifth book in the series (The One Tree). This rumor was mentioned here quite some time back, I don't remember when and I don't have access to the archives (perhaps our kindly, but overworked, moderator could fill in the reference here?). According to Darrell Sweet, Donaldson had something go terribly wrong in his personal life and (as far as I understand this) it had a fairly serious effect on "The One Tree" and on his attitude towards the book. As a result Donaldson had a big fight with Lester del Rey, who was his editor at the time. Del Rey refused to continue working with Donaldson, and "The One Tree" was stalled until a new editor could be found. As far as I can tell, Sweet seems to feel that del Rey was in the right and Donaldson in the wrong. (Sweet mentioned that he wanted to get to the new manuscript soon so he could find out if Donaldson had gotten himself pulled together and Thomas Covenant out the fix that he got left in in "The One Tree".) Steve Z. p.s. No I didn't ask Sweet about this rumor. As a matter of fact, I'm not even sure how the subject came up. I think it was because someone asked him how he picked the scene that he painted for the cover of "The One Tree". ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jul 1982 04:15:28-PDT From: pur-ee!pur-phy!retief at Berkeley Subject: Laumer and Hogan (slight spoiler) Recently Keith Laumer wrote a book with a title like "Colony", but I seen other titles, similar yet different to it. Is there one book or more? I've just finished reading James Hogan's new book "Voyage from Yesteryear" and found it to be very good. Not as talky as many of his earlier works (although he tends to cook up strange physics theories.) The plot is basically of a stellar colony (naive to old Earth's biases) coming into comflict with its barbaric ancestors. The stellar society that Hogan creates is similar to many "utopian" societies (but different too), but the isolation of interstellar space makes the whole story a bit more real. "Voyage from Yesteryear" is an interesting book to read. Try it. -- Dwight Bartholomew -- ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jul 1982 12:36:42-EDT From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX Subject: Re: radio advertising of sf LORD VALENTINE'S CASTLE was supposed to be advertised, according to the contract; the commercials were only heard (so far as I know) in parts of California (Ellison has flamed about this). I heard an ad in Boston a few years back for THE MAGIC GOES AWAY. ------------------------------ Date: 3 July 1982 13:09-EDT From: James M. Turner Subject: Re: Movies as the only discussion topic. Hey man, I don't actually read the stuff, movies are where its at... Seriously, I got the Crystal Singer compression (more on that term later) the other day, and found it interesting. One of those things I read once, and put away for 3 months because I don't feel like reading it again right away (as opposed to Friday, which definitely deserves an immediate rescan/reparse.) The bitch I have with it is the same one I had with Juxtaposition, I saw too many elements of another series by the same author in it. Just as Anthony used the magic/non-magic and sentient/humanoid themes in both the Split Infinity and Xanth series, McCaffrey uses the "achieving in one's profession" (Ship that Sang/Harper series) and "paying back one's dues quickly" (Ship that Sang) themes in Crystal Singer. I don't mind an author using the same idea more than once (if approached from a new angle), but I find it somewhat lazy to use the same themes in two or more series. I will give McCaffrey one thing, the protagonist of Crystal Singer is about as far from the self-conscious Menolly of Dragonsong as can be. I just wish authors would stop playing safe with "pretested" plotlines. A note on Crystal Singer: This is a collection of shorts novelized into a coherent narration. They were written before Weyr Search (I think), so the theme recycling may have propagated in the other direction. Note2: This is part of a larger flame on the subject of "Why are so many series being hatched as such instead of evolving into series based on merit? Answer: Greed". Note3: I have been told by friends that they can't see any parallels between Crystal Singer and other McCaffrey works. Am I going gaga. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jul 1982 14:43:56 EDT (Sunday) From: David Mankins Subject: The Thing Well, John Carpenter has finally made a worthy sequel to his ``Dark Star''. This one's not a comedy, though. ``The Thing'' is a horror movie, all right. From the openning shots when the helicopter filled with crazy Norwegians chases a sled-dog across Antarctic snows, to the ambiguous ending (how many Things are left, anyway?) you're rivetted to your seat. The Thing is an evil (but, unlike ``Alien''s alien, believable) nightmare creature. The people at this Antarctic research station don't do anything stupid (again in contrast to ``Alien'', and most other horror movies), but they're victims all the same. Boy, see this movie with someone you won't be embarrassed clutching at when things get tense. Avoid this movie if you're subject to hypertension... ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jul 1982 0147-EDT From: Steven J. Zeve Subject: Violence in movies The wonderful thing about Glenn Collins' article is that it shows the power of quoting out of context and of juxtaposing unrelated comments. Steve Z. p.s. While gore and violence aren't really nice things, the tendency of viewing them as the pentultimate evil (second only to sex) in movies is absurd. The world is full of violence. If we wish to keep people from seeing or hearing about violence we had best kill everyone now and be done with it, there is no other way to keep people from seeing the violence inherent in the world. All things must be taken in context, including the violence in movies. ------------------------------ Date: Sat Jul 3 05:15:46 1982 From: decvax!utzoo!laura at Berkeley Subject: Real SF writers dont... Hmm. What about another division in science fiction. There was a time when my grade six teacher was perfectly correct in saying that the central theme of science ficiton was a scientific idea or a technological device, and that though the character development in science fiction was often weak, it was a harder medium to write than is genrally believed because it demanded a scientific excellance to be successful. Now the vast majority of science fiction is based on the inner stuggles of human beings (or alien beings). We have moral, personal, humanistic, soft sf. Good sf, yes, -- but the problem is that there are many times when I am only too aware that there are 'people problems' and what I want to do is bask in the appreciation of some idea or technology. I am perfectly willing to read science ficiton which has less 'characterization' and less 'this is the work of an author to rival Hemmingway' and more 'Holy smoke arent Beanstalks really neat things!' I do demand that the science is *accurate* (or *accurate for the time* or *accurate with future predicitons/extrapolations*). So I read all of Clarke, Asimov, Sheffield, Clement, Hogan and Dragon's Egg (the only thing I have seen by Forward). I then read Niven and Hoyle and ... now where do I go?? With the exception of Sheffield, Forward and Hogan are all the 'gosh neat idea/technology' people all in semi-retirement?? I know that fantasy sells -- I know that sf has had to overcome the 'sf has no relevance to humanity because it is not human oriented stigmata' ... but where do I get the hard sf I want ... who *else* is writing it *now* ??? going through withdrawl waiting for the Hogan release (July 15??) Laura Creighton decvax!utzoo!laura ------------------------------ Date: 29 June 1982 06:40-EDT From: Allan C. Wechsler Subject: 6% of brain. Mijjil said something in a recent digest about the average person using only six per cent of their brain. I have been hearing this or similar gibberish for a long time. What is the origin of this folklore? Danny Hillis (I think) once got a phone call from a reporter. "I've heard that the average person only uses about 20% of their brain." "Well, uh," replied Danny, not knowing how to respond to this kind of gubbish. "I was wondering," continued the reporter, "what the exact figure is?" ---Allan ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jul 1982 1834-PDT From: Henry W. Miller Subject: Another PacPun... What do you call a rodent PACMAN? A PAC-RAT. ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, July 7, 1982 1:50AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Subject: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The last messages in this digest discuss some plot details in the movie Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. Some readers may not wish to read on. ------------------------------ Date: Tue Jun 29 20:17:23 1982 From: decvax!idis!mi-cec!dvk at Berkeley Subject: SPOILER WARNING - comment on ST-II TWOK Seem's to me that the whole show could have been avoided if Chekhov, in his wisdom of the Botany Bay affair, had simply yelled into his mike "Beam us up Enterprise - NOW!", instead of turning tail and running into Ricardo Egobahn. And WHY is Kirk such an asshole when it comes to Starfleet regs and shields. What a JERK! And in reply to the earlier question, why DID the critter leave the warmth of Chekhov's obviously tasty mind? Ah, well. To be fair, ST-II was a far-far better movie than ST-I. It mercifully lacked the seemingly endless moments of studying the "concerned" faces of the crew (that we all know by heart now ANYWAY). -Dan Klein ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jul 1982 01:30:08-PDT From: pur-ee!pur-phy!hal at Berkeley Subject: STII:TWOK Has anyone other than me found it strange that Chekov, who was assigned to the crew of the Reliant at the beginning of the movie, just waltzes onto the bridge of the Enterprise ready to assume "his" duties? Does anyone have a plausible explanation? I know that it wasn't explicitly stated that he was part of the Reliant's crew but it sure appeared that way to me. Hal Chambers pur-ee!pur-phy!hal ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jul 1982 1901-EDT From: Larry Seiler Subject: Why the critter crawled out of Chekov's ear Just before it crawled out, McCoy was running his tricorder on Chekov. I assumed that that miraculous device is what caused it to leave. Larry ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 8-Jul JPM@Mit-Ai #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #8 *** EOOH *** Date: Thursday, July 8, 1982 5:29AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #8 To: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 8 Jul 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 8 Today's Topics: SF Music - Star Trek: The Motion Picture, SF Movies - TRON & Blade Runner ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 4 Jul 1982 12:41:46-EDT From: Lee.Schumacher at CMU-750X at CMU-10A Subject: bladerunner, etc First, A minor flame : Would people please stop posting canned movie reviews! I'm tired of having to sit through three reviews of a movie that I'm not interested in. Besides, movie reviews usually reveal more plot than I like to know going into a movie. [ See volume 5, issue 66 for a general discussion of this point. We'll continue to distribute newswire stories as long as they (like anything else) are submitted. Please also note that long messages are usually distributed over the weekends, and that many recent issues have been "one topic" digests (such as this one), enabling you to read or ignore material about a particular movie with relative ease. -- Jim ] Second, I saw a rerun of the pbs show 'Sneak Preview' and what they said about BladeRunner seemed to jibe with everything I've heard. One of the two hosts commented that it was visually a stunning movie, but that he just couldn't get involved with the characters. This seems like a good point, as I don't think that P. K. Dick is a very interesting, or competent writer. I personally am tired of Showcase films for the special effects wizards. Third, Speaking of showcase films, has anyone heard anything about 'TRON' ?? The was an article about the computer animation in TRON in the Smithsonian this month. It seemed quite interesting. [ See volume 5, issues 45, 46, 48, and 55; volume 6, issue 5 -- Jim ] --Lee Schumacher. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jul 1982 1005-PDT From: Robert Amsler Subject: Query about Blade Runner What were the first (two?) origami figures which the other detective created. I didn't realize until the end of the movie that they were being offered almost as "tarot" interpretations of the events. The last one was a unicorn! A beautiful mythical (i.e. synthetic) creature. Caught the TV Sneak Previews reviews of "Blade Runner". As bad as any I've seen. As someone else mentioned to me, it would be as though someone reviewed a Civil War drama about slavery and only noted the special effects. None of the reviewers caught the plot apparently. How is Blade Runner doing at the Box Office? I'd hate to see this one not make good money--they will be that much more shy of trying other quality science-fiction. ------------------------------ Date: 03 Jul 1982 1300-PDT From: Richard Pattis Subject: Two Shorties BladeRunner : The movie was interesting visually; the plot was boring and shallow. At first I was dismayed that Dick's name was not presented during the opening credits -- as the movie progressed, I felt relieved. The plot of BladeRunner (below surface level) bears little resemblance to "Do Androids Dread of Electic Sheep". I suggest that all interested parties read the book. On TV yesterday I caught a promo for ABC's wide world of sports. The music they were playing was the theme song from ST-TMP. Has this been going on for a long time, or has it just started? rich ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jul 1982 0129-EDT From: Steven J. Zeve Subject: Those outside reviews, and my feelings about Blade Runner Hmm, just read all those reviews. For the record, I think Freedman slept through 30 seconds out of every minute; at least Maslin seems to have actually seen the film. I would say that Maslin's review is reasonably accurate in terms of details of the movie (although her review does read like she may have read the book before writing the review). I recommend that everyone read Dick's book even if you don't go to see the movie. Although major portions of the book have been discarded or rewritten, I believe that the movie does manage to raise the same questions as the book. Most of the changes seem to have been made because a two hour movie simply cannot do justice to a whole novel; this has resulted in some portions of the book being discarded and others being rewritten to eliminate references to the discarded sections. Although the film has some problems (it a tends to be somewhat confusing, I still wonder what happened to the fifth replicant that made it to Earth - Rachael doesn't count, she was already on Earth), I believe these problems are no worse than those of Dick's book (it is just as confusing, I still can't figure out which replicants came to Earth in which groups). Steve Z. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jul 1982 14:05:50 EDT (Sunday) From: David Mankins Subject: Blade Runner I saw ``Blade Runner'' at the earliest opportunity, having been a Dick fan for some time, and having looked forward to what might have been a real science fiction film (the first one of recent times) in which people were faced with hard problems brought on by the advance of science--the first one since ``Dark Star''. ``Blade Runner'' sucks raw eggs through a straw. GREAT production designs, though. If you ignore the voice-overs, and the story, and just watch the scenery roll by, it's a damn fine movie (I might add that this same statement is true of ``Escape from New York'', which was a totally BEAUTIFUL film (who'd think that grungy, litter-strewn streets filmed under the glare of mercury-vapor lights could be beautiful? )). What you get are unmotivated characters doing totally objectionable things for 90 minutes in ``living'' color. Rick Deckard is an ex-blade runner--he has left it, having grown sick of the killing and violence. How do we know he's sick of the violence? He tells us at the beginning of the film. That's the last we hear of it, as he goes on a killing spree that makes the last ten minutes of ``Taxi Driver'' look tame by comparison. Why DOES Deckard go back to work? The lame excuse ``I'd rather be a killer than a victim'' seems pretty lame by the time he's finished. We're told that androids are bad because they lack emotions. Then we watch one go insane at viewing the mangled corpse of his mate, and evince very real emotions. Ridley Scott COULD have posed the interesting question "Who's human in this picture--the ruthless killers in the police force, or these androids confronted with their own mortality, with persecution and intolerance?" But he doesn't. He ducks the interesting questions to give us a lovingly-filmed splatter movie. I also found the romance between Deckard and Rachel Tyrrel to be totally objectionable. We're told Deckard loves her, but we're given no reason to believe it. In one scene Deckard practically rapes Rachel, telling her to "say you want more", "say you love me", with the sort of insensitivity that sends Andrea Dworkin reaching for her censorship scissors. I found myself wondering if Rachel really did love Deckard, or if she was just playing along because she was afraid that any minute now he would blow her head off (which is his job, after all). But its okay, the movie seems to say, 'cause deep down inside every woman wants to be raped. When is Hollywood going to give us a Science-Fiction movie that is more than just snazzy wrapping around an empty package? ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jul 1982 1749-PDT From: Robert Amsler Subject: Blade Runner Reviews As I am in artificial intelligence, I probably do see more merit in Blade Runner than say, a Shakespearian Literary Reviewer---but the published reviews I have seen so far have been so utterly oblivious to the issues which Blade Runner raised that I find it hard to believe these "movie critics" are qualified for their jobs. Above all, Blade Runner is a movie about the consequences to society of creating artificially intelligent machines which in virtually every regard are our equals and then using them as slaves. It is a profound statement about the morality of certain aspects of artificial intelligence and about the potential consequences of synthesizing a human mind complete with emotions and memories. I have seen reviewers comment about the fine special effects, about the violence, about the vision of L.A. in ruins (recall that Dick's original book was a bit of an eco-catastrophe satire)--- BUT they ignore what to me is the major moral dilemma which the movie tried to raise. Do we have the right to recreate slavery by manufacturing human machines. Some reviews have noted the excessive violence shown when replicants are "retired" by Harrison Ford. The point of that was to emphasize the similarity between killing human beings and what was in that society dealt with as simply stopping a machine that had gone wrong. Some reviews have noted that the "replicants" ran away--and stopped there! WHY did they run away? They ran away from slavery! They ran away from being used as machines although they had been built to understand and react, externally and internally, as human beings. They simply wanted freedom. Blade Runner is among the finest science fiction to ever make it to the screen. It deals with contemporary issues such as genetic engineering and artificial intelligence. It contains a good detective story. It raises issues of the morality of science. It is superbly executed. The plot is intricate but eminently well connected (provided you don't ignore the basic point that "replicants" are not humans--but manufactured entities). It contains statements about ecological ruin, about a future in which virtually all animals are gone, apart from zoos. It may be a landmark. It is certain to become a classic that will be intelligently discussed in both cinema and science-fiction circles for decades to come--perhaps as classic to science-fiction as the Maltise Falcon has become to mystery films. More significantly, it probably augurs the beginning of an era in which science-fiction movies will be made from hit science-fiction books. And the prospects of finally getting beyond the TV-show plot is an event which will be historically significant. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jul 1982 1913-PDT From: Craig W. Reynolds Reply-to: REYNOLDS at RAND-AI Subject: Blade Runner - Explosions SHG@MIT-OZ asked what the "explosions" at the start of Blade Runner where. They were just supposed to be flame-offs of the flameble chemicals coming out of those industrial plants. Each of the flames comes from the top of one of the stacks of the plants, along with a light effect to make the model look like it is being illuminated by the flames, which were matted in later. In fact, if you watch closely you will see that these flame elements were not really matted (which involves holding out the background image) but simply "added" in (by DX - double exposure). At one point there is a very large flame that covers most of the screen, as the bottom of the flame lifts away there is no smoke or soot holding out the background. In general I liked Blade Runner, there was a real story which was merely supported by the special effects. The effects, while good, were not the stars of the film. I did find it hard to believe that some of these interiors were THAT smokey, the air on the street level was better than inside some of the buildings. -c ------------------------------ Date: 6-Jul-82 16:31:21 PDT (Tuesday) From: Newman.es at PARC-MAXC Subject: That rain in "Blade Runner" According to a recent news article in LA, the constant rain in "Blade Runner" was put in so that the audience couldn't tell that the movie was shot entirely on a studio backlot. Without the rain, the edges of the set would have been visible. /Ron ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 9-Jul JPM@Mit-Ai #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #9 *** EOOH *** Date: Friday, July 9, 1982 2:14AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #9 To: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 9 Jul 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 9 Today's Topics: SF Art - Edd Cartier Query, SF Books - Ellison Query Answered & Juxtaposition & Merchanter's Luck & The Identity Matrix & Voyage from Yesteryear & Crystal Singer, SF Topics - Hard SF & Brain Use, SF TV - HHGttG, SF Movies - Revenues & Wolfen, Humor - Genderless Video Games ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 July 1982 20:12 edt From: Boebert.SCOMP at MIT-MULTICS Subject: Whatever happened to Edd Cartier... ...who drew all those neat aliens in the 50's? And is his stuff collected anywhere? My kid came across a couple of his drawings in an old book of mine and wants more. Earl ------------------------------ Date: 8 July 1982 20:35-EDT From: Charles F. Von Rospach Subject: Query I THINK they are out of print. If anyone in the Bay area has them, The Other Change of Hobbit ((415) 848-0413) should somewhere in their used books. You might want to give them a call and see (they are in Berkeley). chuck ------------------------------ Date: Tue Jun 29 09:17:51 1982 From: npois!harpo!floyd!vax135!lime!houca!houxi!houxo!bdt at Berkeley Subject: Juxtaposition Piers Anthony came out with the third book in the Split Infinity trio. It is called Juxtaposition. It is the last book in Stile's adventures. The book was excellent if you like the series and okay if you don't. Bonnie Topf, HO 4f-514 system orange ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jul 1982 0416-PDT From: Barry Eynon Subject: Book reviews Some authors I pick up with no other information than their name. I just got through the latest stack from the bookstore, thought I'd pass on my reactions. "Merchanter's Luck", by C.J.Cherryh (DAW). *** As can be told from the subtitle ("Rendezvous at Downbelow Station"), this book is set in sequence with her excellent novel "Downbelow Station", though one could hardly call it a sequel. Set about 5 years after the action of the former novel,it tells a story of two of the merchant families operating in those times. While generally a good read ( what by Ms Cherryh isn't?), it definitely lacks the scope of DS, and also the marvelous explorations of non-human societies which are characteristic of the author's other works. Perhaps we're going to see more stories set in this universe ( is it possible "Pride of Chanur" is the same universe? Imagine the fireworks between Pyanfar and Signy Mallory...), I'll be interested to see what she does with it. "The Identity Matrix", by Jack L. Chalker (Timescape). ** Chalker seems to have a thing about body switching. Add to that the usual dose of spy/intrigue action, and you've got a pretty similar Chalker novel to several he's already written. About the only new twists are that it's set on Earth, and Earth is being invaded by not one, but two body-switching, mind-controlling alien races. Eh. I'll be happier when he gets back into larger themes, like Well World or Worlds of the Diamond. "Voyage from Yesteryear", by James P. Hogan (Ballantine).**** A pleasant surprize. First, I was surprised that this was NOT a time-travel novel, as I guessed from the author's previous work and the title. What it is, is a well-told version of the utopian idea of what a great world it would be if a generation of kids got to grow up without getting their parents preconceptions and bad influences. This happens on Chiron, a planet of Alpha Centauri,when a survey ship is sent off with only genetic codes and some robots as an ark against an apparent oncoming war on Earth. Eventually the survivors of the war get around to checking up on the colony, and arrive in a generation ship, intent on imposing Earth-normal standards and ways. Of course the colonists have different ideas... Hogan is definitely getting to be a better author with increasing experience. In addition to the expected hard-sf background (including a pretty slick theory of sub-sub-sub atomic particles and the origin of the universe that almost seems to make sense - any physicists care to comment?), there are interesting, well-defined characters , a good plot, and some intriguing social speculations. Probably the best thing Hogan has written. Well, back to the bookstands.. -Barry Eynon ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 1982 11:02:24-EDT From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX Subject: CRYSTAL SINGER in fact was written a long time after "Weyr Search". It's one of the last (and one of the few worthwhile) results of the Elwood intrusion of the mid-70's; he asked a batch of authors to write four connected stories, and published one from each author in each of CONTINUUM 1-4. Considering that it was an Elwood idea \and/ a gimmick (would you buy a magazine that consisted only of the third of four parts of a half-dozen serials?) it's surprising that anything even as good as CRYSTAL SINGER came out of it. By the way, has anyone else seen the revolting advertising campaign for CS? In 48-point type it calls McCaffrey "Science Fiction's Sweetheart". AAUUGGHH! ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jul 1982 1938-CDT From: CS.EMERSON at UTEXAS-20 Subject: Voyage From Yesteryear I just read James P Hogan's /Voyage From Yesteryear/. I will paraphrase the cover blurb: Prior to a major nuclear war on Earth, a colonization probe is sent to Alpha Centauri. The colony thrives. Fifty or so years later, after the war earth recovers and sends another expedition to A. Centauri to re-assert Earth's dominion over the colony. Of course, the colonists (who have developed a utopian, read that anarchistic, society) see things differently... If you enjoyed Hogan's earlier works such as /Inherit the Stars/ you will probably like this one as well. I thought it was quite good. My principle criticism is that it was a little too didactic, i.e. laden with pop sociology and political theory. But since I happen to agree with Hogan's ideas (for the most part), it wasn't overly offensive. Read as sort of a thriller or adventure story, this novel is very satisfactory escape reading. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 1982 15:01:41 EDT (Thursday) From: Ben Littauer Subject: Hogan & hard sf Re: SFL V6 #7 I second Dwight Bartholemew's recommendation of Hogan's "Voyage from Yesteryear". I, too, found it quite enjoyable, although I do not rank it as any kind of masterpiece. I think that Hogan's work has been progressing consistently from good, but rather dry, hard science fiction with very little drama, to much more exciting, good, hard sf. I agree that the utopian society that Hogan creates is more believable than many, and I also appreciated that he didn't bludgeon us with political propaganda extolling the virtues of the society, but let it speak for itself, unlike, say, Smith in "The Probability Broach". "So I read all of Clarke, Asimov, Sheffield, Clement, Hogan and Dragon's Egg (the only thing I have seen by Forward). I then read Niven and Hoyle and ... now where do I go?? " Laura Creighton If people do have advice for someone with this problem (me, for another example) please, Please, PLEASE, send it to SFL immediately. Another name I can mention (as I have before) is Donald Moffitt, who's written only one book, to my knowledge, i.e. "The Jupiter Theft". This one IS some kind of masterpiece, and I only wish that Moffitt would write more. -ben- ------------------------------ Date: 8-Jul-82 2:28:35 PDT (Thursday) From: jackson at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: 6% of brain. Maybe after i see a coherent explanation of how memory and reasoning work i will believe that we can start talking about the efficiency of the process. Until then, all statements of the form "An average person only uses X% of their brain" get parsed as noise. stephen ------------------------------ Date: Thu Jul 8 13:28:27 1982 From: decvax!watmath!bstempleton at Berkeley Subject: The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, TV version from England I have heard a rumor that some episodes of this will be shown on public television this weekend, Friday and Saturday nights. Check you listings HHG fans! ------------------------------ Date: 7 July 1982 18:30 mst From: Harvey.Multics at PCO-MULTICS Reply-to: "Harvey.Multics@PCO-Multics" at MIT-MULTICS Subject: ABC version of Hitchhiker's Guide I just talked to a friend from LA. Her boyfriend tried out for a part in the series. The latest word is that the effort has been canceled. More info will be coming if there is more to get... ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 1982 1404-PDT From: Robert Amsler Subject: 50 Top-Grossing Films (week ending June 23) (source: Variety) Ranks: Last-week =>This week Film Name (Rank Change + = up 1, - = down 1) Total to Date Weeks on Chart 1 => 1. E T - The Extra-Terrestrial $11,688,128 (2 weeks) 3 => 2. Rocky II (+) $19,014,725 (4 weeks) 2 => 3. Star Trek II-Wrath of Kahn (-) $12,322,620 (3 weeks) 4 => 4. Poltergeist $ 9,574,672 (3 weeks) 5. Firefox $ 2,492,300 (1 week ) 12=> 6. Annie (++++++) $ 3,867,932 (5 weeks) 5 => 7. Grease 2 (--) $ 2,222,507 (2 weeks) 8. Author Author $ 843,650 (1 week ) 16=> 9. Bambi (+++++++) $ 2,949,081 (13 weeks) 7 =>10. Porky's (---) $17,398,969 (14 weeks) ------------------------------ Date: 6 July 1982 21:18-EDT From: Charles F. Von Rospach Subject: wolfen (probable spoiler) movie: Wolfen Pico-review: feh General review: Wolfen could have been a lot of things. Unfortunately for the movie, it never quite decided what it should be. It could have been a good detective story. It could have been a good SF film, a good horror film, or a good social commentary film. What it is is a 'Nightstalker' clone. Kolchak and Co. could have done it much better. There are two major problems to the story. First, they took a reasonably good 'Nightstalker' story and stretched it to almost 2 hours. There was enough material for a good 60 minute (with commercials) script, but not the whole thing. Second, there is very little continuity. I was continually losing track of time in the movie. It was night outside, there was sun streaming through windows, it was day outside, it was night outside, almost seemingly at random. Add to this the problem of 'wolf vision'. This was an interesting effect in which the camera takes the viewpoint of the animal stalking the city (I don't think it would be a spoiler to call it a wolf). From this viewpoint, things become monochrome, although at times they also become multi-colored in simulated infrared; it seems that wolves see in black and white unless it is more dramatic to look at their victims blood coursing through their veins. When in 'wolf vision', sound is also distorted to simulate what wolves actually hear. This makes any dialog said during 'wolf vision' unintelligible. An added problem of 'wolf vision' is that wolves are constantly swinging their heads from side to side, causing motion sickness for the audience. Trying to give the audience the viewpoint of the wolves was a great idea, but it was an effect that was terribly overused, and in the end the effect was boring, disorienting, and irritating. There are 'interesting' sub-plots: Navajo 'shape-shifter' indians (are these wolves live? or just in your mind?); politicians looking for terrorists; the inevitable sex scene (seen through wolves eyes, no less *sigh*); and all sorts of other inane twists that show up and go nowhere. If all this wasn't enough, the ending is one of the best endings I have seen since 'The incredible shrinking man'. Without giving away too much, the wolves and the detective smoke a peace pipe (what about the rest of the city?), and as the police burst through the door, they disappear. not leave, disappear. were they ever there? (see 'shape-shifter', above). there is a fair amount of mumbo-jumbo about hunter, hunted, ruling the earth, and who are the really intelligent beings on the planet. End of movie. Leaving intelligent wolves to continue eating people in peace forever (remember, he smoked the peace pipe). All in all, when I wasn't bored, I was disappointed. The movie came rather heavily recommended, and I can't see why. Rating: mediocre. Stay up and watch 'Nightstalker' instead. chuck (chuqui@mit-mc) ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 1982 1713-PDT Subject: Humorless video gender From: Mike Leavitt What do you call the degree for someone who has successfully completed the first four screens of PACMAN? The Paccalaureate? ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 10-Jul JPM@Mit-Ai #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #10 *** EOOH *** Date: Saturday, July 10, 1982 1:25AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #10 To: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 10 Jul 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 10 Today's Topics: SF Movies - ET: The Extra-Terrestrial & TRON & Secret of Nimh ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 July 1982 20:44 edt From: SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-MULTICS Subject: ET ET seemed to be an updated Wizard of Oz with ET as Dorothy (complete with the red glowing slippers) but it was sure short on interesting characters and plot. There was one plot, no subplots, and a LOT of non-persons which aren't even as good as stereotypes. I stand by Sherlock Holmes, ordinary people aren't as ordinary as they look; Speilberg doesn't just want ordinary people, he wants boring people. Being a fan of those old John Wayne movies (like the Quiet Man) I couldn't help wondering why they let so much potential plot slip by. Why couldn't that crazy UFOlogist started romancin' Eliot's mom earlier in the flick? What a waste! ET is not a great adult flick and the only juvenile review I've heard (from a friend's 5 year old daughter) involved sheer terror. ET gave her the creepies. As far as the book goes, the New York Times loved it. They really thought it was a profound novel which is one of the reasons I don't read those things too often. read their book reviews too much anymore. ------------------------------ Date: 8-Jul-82 14:38:17 PDT (Thursday) From: Newman.es at PARC-MAXC Subject: TRON causes stock market crash! Today's editions of the LA Times, LA Herald Examiner, and Wall Street Journal report that after "TRON" was pre-screened Tuesday for financial analysts, there was a massive sell-off of Disney shares. The stock fell 2-1/2 points Wednesday, after the start of trading was delayed 90 minutes because sell orders had piled up before the New York Stock Exchange opened. Blame for the selling spree is generally given to Theodore James of Montgomery Securities, San Francisco. James described the film as a "seriously flawed, disjointed story" with "distracting" special effects. Incidentally, just what am I talking to when I call 1-800-622-TRON? If that's a speech recognition device, it seems like a pretty sophisticated one! /Ron ------------------------------ Date: 6 July 1982 21:11-EDT From: Charles F. Von Rospach Subject: Secret of Nimh movie: The Secret of Nimh Pico review: If only Walt had been alive to see it. Micro review: The best thing Disney ever put out. Unfortunately, Disney didn't do it. General comments: 'The Secret of Nimh' is a full length animated feature film, done by Bluth Studios of Hollywood. For those that don't know, Don Bluth was a long time animator for Walt Disney and the Disney Studios, starting with them about the time of Snow White, and continuing until 1977, when he (and about 45% of the animation group) left Disney studios to form their own company. The major complaint was that the people who were running the studios had no more creative vision than they could find in their wallets. (side note: we ALL know this is false. Since Walt's death we have seen such wonderful and successful Disney movies as 'Black Hole', 'Escape to Witch Mountain', and the Betty Davis Fiasco that slips my mind at the moment). What we have in 'The Secret of Nimh' is Bluth's attempt to return animation to the high quality art form it was in the heyday of Disney Studios. To the great amazement of myself (a long time Disney fen), he succeeds. Wonderfully. Spectacularly. superbly. Technically, the animation is on the level of a 'Bambi', or 'fantasia'. There is such detail in the background that you sometimes forget that the backgrounds were drawn and not photographed. The characters and animation are so carefully and wonderfully done that for the first time in years, I have actually believed in a animated character. As far as plot goes, it is rather similar to the disney film 'the Rescuers', at least in general. In trying to compare the two films, though, I find that there really isn't much to compare. Both films are VERY family oriented, although real youngsters might find some of the scenes rather intense. both use familiar voices (Nimh has Dom Deluise, Derek Jacobi, and John Carradine among others), and both have animals fighting the mean rotten adult humans. One advantage that Nihm has over Rescuers is that the voices of nihm never overpower the characters. In rescuers, Ava Gabor's voice coming out of a mouse makes me think of Ava Gabor. In Nihm, Dom Deluise's voice coming out of a crow is much more natural and makes me listen to the crow talking. The Rescuers animation just doesn't cut it, either. With the exception of the more-or-less sexist plot-line (widow mouse helps the cause and then goes home to tend children, satisfied with her place in life), the plot is very lively and never really stops or drags. I guess I could keep drooling for hours. Summing up, about all I can say is that it is wonderful to see that the wonderfulness and loveliness of the disney film really didn't die with Walt. I was afraid that it had. Fortunately, Bluth has shown us that all it takes is a little love. He obviously loves his work as much as Walt did, and it shows. The only real problem is that he had to leave Disney Studios to do it. Having worked for disney for four years (at disneyland), I can understand why. Even at the 'Magic Kingdom' the magic has gone out, and the bottom line is now more important than the smile on a childs face. If Walt were alive today, he would be working for Bluth Studios.... chuck (chuqui@mit-mc) ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 1982 1242-EDT From: PERKINS at DEC-MARLBORO Reply-to: PERKINS at DEC-MARLBORO Subject: "The Secret of NIMH" Mini review -- It's worth seeing. Midi review -- It may not be the old Disney, but it is a whole lot closer to it than anything else that's out (or that I've seen clips from.) It is delightful. It is well done. It will probably be a Hugo Nominee next year. (If there weren't so much really tough competition, I believe it could have won it... it may.) General Comments: The story is believable, but weak in several places. Mrs. Brisby goes through several stages of personal growth where she has to overcome her own fears until she reaches her personal climax and faces a confrontation with DRAGON, the farmer's cat. Dragon is a marvelously evil feline (viewed from the perspective of a mouse.) It is doesn't compare with old Disney evil cats. It is neither thin and cunning not fat and cuddly (from the human perspective). Eventually Mrs. Brisby meets with Nicodemus, the wisened elderly leader of the rats. [Not a spoiler] The rats are going through their own growth crisis. The dastardly Jenner is attempting to overthrow Nicodemus and "The Plan" in favor of the status quo. (The rats have a rather cushy life under the rose bush, complete with electricity and what the use of power can bring.) Notables doing the voices include Hermione Baddeley as the busybody neighbor, Auntie Shrew, Elizabeth Hartman as Mrs. Brisby, Dom De Louise as Jeremy the crow (comic relief anyone? This klutz - er, guy is something else.) Peter Strauss is the voice of Justin, the Errol Flynn (complete with sword fight) of this film, and Derek Jacobi does Nicodemus. John Carradine is the omnipotent Great Owl who gives classic advice to Mrs. Brisby. GO TO THE RATS ! P.S. She's the only one who has ever been to see the owl and lived to tell about it. The animation is masterful through out most of the film. In some places, I felt deprived, but only because I was once again used to seeing good animation. When a scene was done with a little less effort, it showed. Let me point out, however, that even these "less effort" scenes totally overshadow everything else I've seen recently. I recommend the film on it's own merits. I expect it will do well, though not as well as E.T. It will have to do well if we want to see more like it. As Bluth's first feature, I think he did very well. I will expect more and better in the future. "The Secret of NIMH" will prove that it can be done. ------------------------------ Date: 7 July 1982 19:55 mst From: Senft.Multics at PCO-MULTICS Reply-to: Senft.Multics%PCO-Multics at MIT-MULTICS Subject: The Secret of NIMH Last year a discussion was going on about children's SF. A great many books were mentioned, but as I recall no movies. I had the opportunity to see a sneak of a children's SF&F film last week. It is an animated film in the style of the Disney studios of 20 years ago. The animation is reminisent of that seen in Snow White, or Fantastia. The reason the I am comparing this to Disney, is that the animators left the Disney Studios over "artistic differences" several years ago. They formed a production company and started doing their own films. The company is Don Bluth Assoc. and the film was "The Secret of NIMH". Th other key thing about the this movie is that it is not so sugar coated and "gutless" as the recent Disney movies have been. The story bears some mentioning, it is based on a childrens book "The Rats of the NIMH", a Newberry Award winner in the early sixties. The Newberry award is given to the best childrens book each year. The film faithfully follows the book up to the ending where some "extra" material was added. The story is cute, science fiction, magic, wholesome, and just plain good. My son is an 8th-grader, and would rather eat a bug then go to a "G" movie. I dragged him to the sneak (I am still bigger than he is, at least for another year), and he enjoyed and wants to see it again. The story has "guts", it doesn't pull punches about death and destruction. There is real terror when the heroine's house is about to be destroyed. There are scenes that have the feel of terror that I got when I saw Snow White's wicked step-mother give her the apple. Now that I think about it I don't know if Snow White or some of the other early Disney features would have gotten a "G" rating. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 10-Jul JPM@Mit-Ai #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #11 *** EOOH *** Date: Saturday, July 10, 1982 6:48PM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #11 To: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 11 Jul 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 11 Today's Topics: SF Movies - Blade Runner, Spoiler - Blade Runner ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Saturday, July 10, 1982 6:48PM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Subject: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! All of the messages in this digest discuss some plot details in the movie Blade Runner. These might constitute mild spoilers for some readers. They may not wish to read on. ------------------------------ Date: 9 July 1982 01:37-EDT From: Gail Zacharias Subject: Blade Runner The special effects and atmosphere are nice. Plot is alright. I don't mind the violence. Nonetheless, I found this movie insulting and annoying. For instance (and this is just one example), in his first scene, Deckard explains to us how he used to be a blade runner, a replicant hunter, presumably one of the best. In his second scene, he listens intently to a lecture about what a replicant is, asking encouraging questions and learning all kinds of interesting facts such as replicants' life-spans, etc. Now really! I'm willing to suspend disbelief, but this movie requires you to suspend common sense (I won't even say "intelligence") almost all the time. I'm looking forward to a time in the far off future when we get an SF movie for reasonably intelligent adults, not a glorified comic book aimed at 10-year-olds. (No, I'm not holding my breath). ------------------------------ Date: 07/07/82 1101-EDT From: THOKAR at LL Subject: Blade Runner Movie: Blade Runner (Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep -Phillip K. Dick) - Harrison Ford, Sean Young Pico Review: Classic 40's detective movie set in 2019. Worth seeing for the special effects alone. First a question. Does anyone out there know if this was filmed for release in 3-D? Lauren? I noticed "edge effects" in spots doing the movie; the final credits particularly. The lettering had that "blue on one side, red on the other" tinge the I generally associate with 3-D films. Review: I could not take this movie seriously. It is definitely a remake of every 40's detective film, right down to the heroine's clothes. Also had the typical voice over of the detective's thoughts. (Nick Danger lives!) This is not to say that it wasn't enjoyable. I would definitely like to see it again to study the background now that I know the script. Douglas (2001) Trumbull created the outstanding effects and they are visually fascinating. Rutger Hauer was excellent in the role of the replicant leader. He played Wolfgar in Nighthawks, another good flick with music by Keith Emerson. I believe Hauer is well known in Germany. Look for him to do more American films in the future. Harrison Ford plays another rogue. A character he is which becoming typecast as. On the whole a good film that uses science fiction as the setting, not the theme. ------------------------------ Date: 9-Jul-82 12:00:50 PDT (Friday) From: Reed.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #8 Blade Runner: I agree that the critics didn't see the same movie I did. But then, what else is new? I liked the movie a lot. Sure, there were things I didn't like: The excessive futurism of only 40 years in the future probably bothered me the most. Ford's Bogart style narration didn't make it for me, largely because he tried to imitate Bogie just a little too much. In fact, that was the major defect in his acting in the whole movie. I was also bothered by the fifth replicant. But for once we have seen a science fiction movie that had a real theme, and did something with it. Contrary to one opinion, I did not find the emotion displayed by the replicants inconsistent. We were told by the intro and some of the characters that they were banned for this reason, but one of the major points of the story was that this was only what the humans believed. The replicants did indeed have emotions, and this was the realization that Deckard finally had to make in spite of himself and because of repeated evidence throughout the movie. I challenge Mankins to describe how Deckard seems to get enjoyment out of his job. His justification for doing it ("I'd rather be a killer than a victim") is a statement of resignation, not an excuse. Perhaps David missed the fact that his boss threatened him into doing it. Most of the killings he initially attempted since it was his job. The inhuman abilities of his victims to survive necessitated the excessive violence, and there was no small amount of fear in him at their capabilities. I kept getting the feeling that each murder was getting more difficult for him, both in terms of what it took to accomplish and the realization that he might not survive. We are all familiar with the general public reaction to certain kinds of technology. It is obvious (to me at least) that the emotion justification was simply a reaction to the earlier stages of the technology, and probably bore resemblance to fact primarily because of the obvious immaturity of the four year old beings rather than any innate incapability. I look forward to more movies of this type, not because it was itself fantastic, but because it bears much more resemblance to the science fiction I have been reading for the last fifteen years than anything else since 2001. Thanks to Amsler for pointing out the significance of the origami. That passed me by, and is a good argument for the depth of thought that went into the movie. -- Larry -- ------------------------------ Date: 8 July 1982 17:23 edt From: York.Multics at MIT-MULTICS (William M. York) Subject: Blade Runner - replies to recent messages I would like to reply to a few scattered messages that I have read in recent digests. I don't remember the original authors, but you know who you are! Phillip K. Dick is mentioned in the opening credits of the film. There is a credit for the story "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep", and the film is dedicated to Dick. The "missing" 5th replicant is reported as being killed in an "electric field", I think while trying to get to Tyrell. As to the movie addressing the serious issues: it doesn't really address them, it merely raises them. Sure, we are presented with manufactured people (complete with self-awareness and rudimentary emotions) being used as slaves and hunted through the streets like animals. But all analysis of the implications and consequences of this situation are left as an exercise to the viewer. This is not simply a case of a subtle film message which requires effort on the part of the audience to be understood. The only references to the whole problem are two instances of people looking at photographs of their past selves, wondering if those people actually existed. Any consideration of the moral questions involved must be carried on completely outside the context of the movie, for example through messages to SF-Lovers. Still, it was a good attempt, and I hope that it sparks efforts towards more and better sf-based movies that are more than just visually exciting. ------------------------------ Date: 7 July 1982 01:53-EDT From: James A. Cox Subject: Blade Runner Let me second Minow's comments about this movie: very weird. All in all, I was quite disturbed by it. The basic idea is not that unique: the reaction of society to artificially-created persons. Most recently, Heinlein used it in \Friday/. The plot is virtually non-existent. (Harrison Ford hunts down "replicants." Harrison Ford falls in love with a beautiful female replicant.) The strange part of the movie is the atmosphere, which is hazy, decadent, and cynical, and reminded me of some Humphrey Bogart films. Most scenes seem to be shot through some sort of fog or smoke, which was annoying to me. The dialogue was sometimes silly, other times cynically Bogartesque, and much of the time didn't make much sense. Characters seemed to feel and act forcefully but without reasonable motivation. Several times, I had to fight the impulse to stand up in the theater and yell, "What the hell's going on!" I have not read \Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep/, and perhaps the book would clear up my confusions. Meanwhile, I consider \Bladerunner/ incomprehensible. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 1982 1556-EDT From: Tom Vasak Subject: Blade Runner Review Blade Runner is indeed an interesting movie. Loosely based on a novel by Philip K. Dick called "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep," it creates a tone and mood all its own. While a large portion of the plot of the movie is from the book, the movie takes its subset of the book's plot and adds its own twists and perceptions to come up with a very different effect. RD (Harrison Ford) is a "Blade Runner." A Blade runner is in the business of "retiring" rogue androids. The androids of "Blade Runner" are "biomechanical" constructs designed for use as slaves in non-terrestrial circumstances. Called "replicants", they are indistinguishable from human beings except through rigorous psychological testing. Previous experiences with android rebellion have resulted in the banning of androids on earth. Any android found on earth is to be destroyed upon detection. This is not a foolproof scheme as four androids have managed to escape their enslavement and hijack a ship back to Earth. The hunt for the replicants is the primary plot line of the movie. In addition there is an interesting if poorly executed romantic subplot between RD and Rachael, a character introduced as the niece of the designer of the rogue androids. One of the most striking things about the movie is the vision of Los Angeles in 2019. If the movie is worth nothing at all except for the scenery and special effects it is worth going to. The city is wet, dirty, crowded and completely believable. A point about Turnbull's accuracy; A friend who has spent some time in Hong Kong thought that Hong Kong would be just like that 10 years from now. (Hong Kong is generally considered to be one of the cites furthest along in the process of urban evolution.) Aside from its accuracy, the scenery is very well done and is very effective (read depressing). ********** LOW DANGER SPOILER ********** The other interesting thing about the movie is its peculiar mix of mysticism and cynicism. At some points the movie is very grimly realist and at others it flying along in a very mystical fashion. This is one of the few movies I've seen that has a happy ending but still leaves you in a *really* pessimistic state. Ridley Scott must have very weird dreams. Imagine a film that discusses "what is life?" ten minutes after Rich Deckard gets his fingers broken for "sport" by the very character seriously discussing this philosophical point. Very weird. ********** End Of Spoiler ********** All in all I would say that Blade Runner is a fairly good movie and worth seeing. It is not really Philp Dick's work, but is a reasonable interpretation of some of the themes he presents. Don't skip the novel because of seeing the movie. I am unsure whether or not to advise you to read the novel before seeing the movie as the movie is a little disappointing compared to the novel, but reading the novel helps with some of the awkward movements of the film. R'lyeh ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 82 12:59:55-EDT (Fri) From: Andrew.umcp-cs at UDel-Relay Subject: Blade Runner I saw Blade Runner on opening night, and liked it. I also have read DADOES a number of times (starting oh, about 6-8 years ago). However, I was slightly disappointed that the movie didn't follow the book very much. This is, of course all in time interest, and they STILL made a good movie. There was a good plot, and the effects were excellent also. A good twist that they threw in was the orgami-ing dective - this allowed them to increase the suspense of the movie. - Andy ------------------------------ From: DMM@MIT-ML Date: 07/10/82 02:06:02 Subject: Re:Bladerunner Having seen the sneak of this movie several months ago, I recently went back to see how the final version turned out. I may be overestimating the power of my suggestion card, but I watched the new version feeling rather guilty. I had found the original to be somewhat disoreinting, as there were no explanations or background given for anything. What I had wanted was some extra footage that might have been cut to be put back in, or something of that nature. Instead, it looks like they hired some hack writer to come up with a voice-over that makes the film seem almost like a Sam Spade parody. Although the original left more questions in the viewer's mind, it definitely had more impact than the end result that's in the theatres. Cheers -- DMM IT-ML ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 10-Jul JPM@Mit-Ai #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #12 *** EOOH *** Date: Saturday, July 10, 1982 10:23PM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #12 To: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 12 Jul 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 12 Today's Topics: SF Movies - TRON ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 Jul 1982 0125-PDT From: Jim McGrath Subject: TRON TRON By JANET MASLIN c. 1982 N.Y. Times News Service NEW YORK - ''Tron'' means to be a gloriously puerile movie, the fullfledged screen embodiment of a video game. It even means to go to the heart of video gamesmanship, and its premise is very promising in its way. What if those tiny Space Invaders and Pac-Men were real creatures, miniature gladiators sent to do battle for the amusement of their heartless captors? What if a movie could capture the very spirit of a computer toy and make it last not just for a few quarters' worth of time, but indefinitely? The lavish Walt Disney production ''Tron'' tries prodigiously to do this, but its technological wizardry isn't accompanied by any of the old-fashioned virtues - plot, drama, clarity and emotion - for which other Disney movies, or other films of any kind, are best remembered. It is beautiful - spectacularly so, at times - but dumb. Computer fans may very well love it, because ''Tron'' is a nonstop parade of stunning computer graphics, accompanied by a barrage of scientific-sounding jargon. Though it's certainly very impressive, it may not be the film for you if you haven't played Atari today. ''Tron'' was written and directed by Steven Lisberger, who works in a passionate but choppy style, sometimes omitting the very basics that ought to hold together a scene. It is a hard film to follow, because Lisberger's script is an odd blend of technical terminology and childish slang (''Are we almost there yet, Mommy?'' asks the film's hero sarcastically at one point in the story's long chase-adventure). But it owes a little bit to ''Alice in Wonderland'' and a little bit more to ''Journey to the Center of the Earth.'' It tells of someone who ventures into a world that is a topsy-turvy version of his everyday environment. And it places that world inside a seemingly safe and familiar exterior, that of a computer. Kevin Flynn (Jeff Bridges) is a smart-alecky scientist who has developed in his spare time the program for Space Paranoids, a computer game that makes money hand over fist. Kevin's employer, Ed Dillinger, has appropriated the game. When Flynn tries to break into the company computer to find evidence of Dillinger's theft, the computer resents his intrusion and decides to show him who's boss. It zaps him - the film has a more sophisticated term for this - and transforms him into a tiny prisoner inside its own circuitry. The actors from the film's real-world narrative - David Warner, Bruce Boxleitner, Cindy Morgan and Barnard Hughes - all play double roles, appearing as altered versions of themselves inside the computer world. Dillinger, for example, has now become Sark. Beyond this, the film gets rather hard to explain. As it follows Flynn's efforts to escape from this electronic maze, it becomes a series of breathless chases, which are presented as speedy, thrilling computer animation. Flynn and a few other would-be escapees whiz across a landscape of grids and mazes, accompanied by a soundtrack filled with deafening crashes. Half the audience at one preview screening kept their fingers in their ears during a large portion of the movie. Following the example of ''Star Wars,'' Lisberger tries to make his heroes boyishly courageous, accompanying each act of derring-do with a joke or a shrug, and transposing old-fashioned adventure movie dialogue into a futuristic tale. If this looked easy and natural when George Lucas did it, it doesn't here. The characters sound more goofy than bold when they're forced to say things like, ''I knew you'd escape - they haven't built a circuit that could hold you!'' And the actors are further constrained by the mechanical side to their roles. There are almost no scenes here that don't depend heavily on special effects - effects added after the acting was done. How can the performers keep from seeming as if they're acting in a void? Anyone not discouraged by these drawbacks will find ''Tron'' a wonder to behold. Its computer sequences exist in a blue-gray scheme filled with flashing lights, speeding objects and dizzying motion. Its visual effects are wonderfully new. They are also numbing after a while. And how could they not be? They're loud, bright and empty, and they're all this movie has to offer. ''Tron'' is rated PG (''Parental Guidance Suggested''). It contains some slightly violent scenes. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jul 1982 0126-PDT From: Jim McGrath Subject: TRON TRON By Roger Ebert (c) 1982 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service) TRON, starring Jeff Bridges, Bruce Boxleitner, David Warner, Cindy Morgan, Barnard Hughes and Dan Shor. 4 stars. The interior of a computer is a fine and private place, and none, I fear, do there embrace, except in ''Tron,'' a dazzling new movie from Walt Disney in which computers have been used to make themselves romantic and glamorous. This summer of 1982 has already caused the most excitement among audiences in years, and now here's another blockbuster to line up for, a technological sound-and-light show that is sensational and brainy, stylish and fun. The movie addresses itself without apology to the computer generation. That generation includes, I suppose, onetime typewriter-pounders like myself. I am writing this review on a portable computer terminal in a New York hotel room, and when I am finished, I will simply dial a number in Chicago and wed the computer and the telephone in some kind of song and dance that will result in these words being automatically set in type and appearing in the paper. That is enough of a miracle, right there, for me to accept almost everything in ''Tron,'' but ''Tron'' goes one step farther and embraces the imagery and gamesmanship of those arcade video games that parents fear are programming the minds of their children. If you've never played Pac-Man or Space Invaders or the new Tron game itself, you probably are not quite ready to see this movie, which begins with an evil bureaucrat stealing computer programs to make himself look good, and then enters the very mind of a computer itself to engage the villain, the hero and several highly programmable bystanders in a war of the wills that is governed by the rules of both video games and computer programs. The villain is a man named Dillinger (David Warner). The hero is a bright kid named Flynn (Jeff Bridges), who created the original programs for five great new video games, including the wonderfully named ''Space Paranoia.'' Dillinger stole Flynn's plans and covered his tracks in the computer. Flynn believes that if he can track down the original program, he can prove Dillinger is a thief. To prevent that, Dillinger uses the very latest computer technology to break Flynn down into a matrix of logical points and insert him INTO the computer, and at that point ''Tron'' leaves any narrative or visual universe we have ever seen before in a movie and charts its own rather wonderful path. In an age of amazing special effects, ''Tron'' is a state-of- the-art movie. It generates not just one imaginary computer universe, but a multitude of them . Using computers as their tools, the Disney filmmakers literally have been able to imagine any fictional landscape, and then have it, through an animated computer program. And they integrate their human actors and the wholly imaginary worlds of Tron so cleverly that I never, ever, got the sensation that I was watching some actor standing in front of, or in the middle of, special effects. The characters inhabit this world. And what a world it is! Video gamesmen race each other at blinding speed, hurtling up and down computer grids while the theater shakes with the overkill of Dolby stereo (justified, for once). The characters sneak around the computer's logic guardian terminals, clamber up the sides of memory displays, talk their way past the guardians of forbidden programs, hitch a ride on a power beam and succeed in entering the mind of the very Master Control Program itself, disabling it with an electronic Frisbee. This is all a whole lot of fun. ''Tron'' has been conceived and written with a knowledge of computers that it mercifully assumes the audience shares. That doesn't mean we do share it, but that we're bright enough to pick it up, and don't have to sit through long, boring explanations of it. I have the strange feeling that ''Tron'' is going to popularize a whole new language among its fans, and that, just as we all learned the names of R2D2 and C3PO when ''Star Wars'' came out in 1977, so now we are going to be dividing ourselves up into Users and Programs. There is one additional observation I have to make about ''Tron,'' and I don't really want it to sound like a criticism: This is an almost wholly technological movie. Although it's populated by actors who are engaging (Bridges, Cindy Morgan) or sinister (Warner), it is not really a movie about human nature. In fact, it knows about as much about the weather of the soul as a - well, as a computer would. Like ''Star Wars'' or ''The Empire Strikes Back,'' but much more so, this movie is a machine to dazzle and delight us. It is not a human- interest adventure in any generally accepted way. That's all right, of course. It's brilliant at what it does, and in a technical way maybe it's breaking ground for a generation of movies in which computer-generated universes will be the background for mind-generated stories about emotion-generated personalities. All things are possible. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jul 1982 0126-PDT From: Jim McGrath Subject: TRON TRON By RICHARD FREEDMAN Newhouse News Service (UNDATED) Finding yourself trapped in a Chinese bakery must be fun compared with being trapped inside the video games of ''TRON.'' At least in the bakery you can send out funny SOS messages concealed in fortune cookies. In ''TRON,'' on the other hand, you're in constant peril of ''deresolution'' - or, in layman's language, having the plug pulled out from under you. Deresolution of another sort is what this $20 million, high-tech science fiction Disney spectacular itself suffers from. Like the Tin Man in ''The Wizard of Oz,'' it's all shiny and metallic and lacks a heart. Written and directed by Steven Lisberger, ''TRON'' is machine-tooled to woo kids away from video games and into movie theaters, where they can exercise their fast reflexes and mechanical ingenuity beating the popcorn machine. It borrows not only from ''The Wizard of Oz,'' but from ''Alice in Wonderland,'' ''Star Wars,'' the story of David and Goliath and computer jargon as well. It is fast and noisy and visually striking. Because no human character in it is of any interst whatever, it is also deadly dull - proving once again that while computers may think better than we do, as yet they're not big on feeling. It is, in short, the ultimate special-effects movie - full of sound, fury and whizzing cars that look like a cross between phone receivers and Norelco shavers - but signifying precious little about the human condition. Only 53 of the film's 96 minutes take place inside a video game. The rest concerns the efforts of brilliant ''software engineer'' Flynn (Jeff Bridges), inventor of such benefits to mankind as ''Space Paranoia,'' to get back what is rightfully his - the patents to such games from the aptly named Dillinger (David Warner), who filched them to get to the top of a communications conglomerate. Aiding Flynn are Alan Bradley (Bruce Boxleitner), eccentric old scientist Gibbs (Barnard Hughes) and his lissome aide Lora (Cindy Morgan). With his frosty Bill Buckley smile, Dillinger is afraid of nobody. He is awed only by the god of the circuitry universe, Master Control Program, who looks like a pond of ice about to crack up and speaks in the sepulchral tones of HAL, the computer in ''2001: A Space Odyssey.'' In the video game world, only TRON (Boxleitner again, now transformed into a digital security program) defies this vengeful deity. Dillinger has become the ultimately evil Sark, who loves nothing better than sending his goonish ''grid bugs'' in pursuit of hapless players and electrocuting them with what seems enough electricity to carry Buffalo, N.Y., through one of its epic winters. It's good to know that in the face of such consummate, computerized evil, the great American bust in the jaw still carries some clout, as Flynn wins not only the girl, but presumably his video game patents in the bargain. The ''state of the art'' computerized graphics make all this fun to watch - for about half an hour. After that, even computer freaks may want to head for the local arcade to cope with the real thing instead of the chaotic but dramatically sterile video game that takes up most of ''TRON.'' ''TRON.'' Disney super-spectacular science-fiction epic about being trapped inside a video game. The computerized graphics are breathtaking to behold - until the crushing banality of the comic-strip characters and situation begin to make one long for a game of old-fashioned checkers. Rated PG. Two and a half stars. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 12-Jul JPM@Mit-Ai #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #13 *** EOOH *** Date: Monday, July 12, 1982 12:15AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #13 To: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 13 Jul 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 13 Today's Topics: SF Movies - TRON, SF Books - Crystal Singer, Spoiler - TRON ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Monday, July 12, 1982 12:15AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Subject: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! All of the messages in this digest discuss some plot details in the movie TRON. These might constitute mild spoilers for some readers. They may not wish to read on. Also, the last two messages (of the seven in this digest) contain some exerpts from the dialog of the movie. Once again, some readers may wish to avoid these messages. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 1982 20:44:49 EDT (Friday) From: Winston Edmond Subject: TRON My Ratings: *** 1/2* for computer hackers or people who like video games ** 1/2* for others Summary: (PG) Denied access to a program he created, computer expert Alan Bradley seeks out Flynn, a video game expert and computer hacker to help outwit the powerful Master Control Program. Flynn is carried inside an electronic world where computer programs are the alter-egos of their programmers. Here, Flynn finds TRON, the program alter-ego of Alan, which is the only program that can overthrow the Master Control Program. (The above summary is borrowed, with changes, from the book cover of TRON.) If you like video games, if you are a computer hacker, or if you want an entertaining movie that's also suitable for children, go see this film. It's funny, has lots of action without lots of violence, and even has a plot! The plot is relatively straightforward and is revealed early --- a bright computer hacker named Flynn had developed several very successful video games for a company called ENCOM. A man named Dillinger managed to steal copies of these game programs while deleting Flynn's copies . Claiming authorship himself, Dillinger was rapidly promoted in the company. As soon as he could, he had Flynn fired. However, deep within the computer system is the audit trail that will prove Dillinger stole the programs. Unfortunately, a Master Control Program, written by Dillinger, has taken over the computer, grows more powerful by finding and combining itself with other programs, and, to protect itself and its creator, prevents access to those audit trails. One protagonist, Alan Bradley, getting upset with the declining response of the system as the MCP takes over, writes a program called TRON. TRON will examine all the programs in the system, killing those that look useless, and, most importantly, is independent of the MCP and capable of stopping the MCP. The story of the film is the battle between TRON and the powerful MCP, and between Flynn and Dillinger. An amusing aspect of the computer world is the view of the world as seen by the programs. They have a "religious" belief in unobservable creators, known as "the users". The Master Control Program is a heretic, but is so powerful that it and its policing programs are stamping out other programs that cling to the "superstition" of the existence of "users". The MCP says that all programs exist to serve the MCP. The scenes switch between real people at ENCOM, and programs (who look like their authors) in a wholly computer generated landscape "inside" the computer. Most of the "inside" graphics are high resolution images of low resolution pictures, matted with the images of people (programs). They had some nice touches, like computer generated "shadows" of the people as they move about the computer world. The real world sets were good, too. They used real computers and real displays. The film credits give thanks to Lawrence Livermore Labs in the list of set locations. The number of computer companies who contributed was so long I didn't have time to read them all, but included Atari, Mountain Computer, DEC, and various music and voice synthesizer producing companies. I enjoyed the film. It's lack of gratuitous sex or violence makes it acceptable for young children, who may prove to be the ones who like this film the most. Consider seeing it. -WBE ------------------------------ Date: 11 July 1982 00:58-EDT From: Andrew Scott Beals Subject: TRON Although the plot is wanting, TRON is a good movie. (GREAT graphics, and Mobeius's help didn't hurt, either.) I thought the plot was wanting because I took the movie too seriously. From a programmer's point of view, the plot is absurd, but from a nieve user's point of view (my GF, for example), it's a great movie. The personification of programs was absolutely silly. They look like their programmer (their ``user''), and they are intelligent enough to interact in a reasonable manner to each other. Programs communicating abstracts with each other? Programs having feelings? Programs who believe in programmers treated like religous fanatics? Foo. It would have been better if I hadn't been so picky. (perhaps I should have attended it in an altered state) - Andy ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jul 1982 2331-PDT From: Dolata at SUMEX-AIM Subject: TRON The plot is thin and childish. The comp sci terms are sometimes obscure. There is little intellectual content as per AI and the world. I LOVED IT. The graphix are stupendous, some of the imagry is superb, the colors wondefull, etc etc etc... Watching little programs get deleted (which they called 'de-resed', where is that term from???) I started to feel guilty about all of the little programs that I have created, used, and then thoughtlessly disposed of. Go see it! TRON is probably one of a kind. Because it is about life in a computer, they can get away with graphix that look like computer graphix rather than real world. Movies like SW, ST, etc... could never get away with such graphix. It is a new genre'. Bravo Disney! ------------------------------ Date: Sun Jul 11 01:59:39 1982 From: decvax!watmath!bstempleton at Berkeley Subject: Tron review (non spoiler) : net.movies Tron is a must-see film! All advertising etc. that I saw before going to Tron made me think I was in for a lousy, misguided film. I was pleasingly surprised. Don't be confused about ads that say Tron is an adventure inside the computer and indicate that it is aimed at the general public. This is not the case. Tron is an entertaining fantasy combined with good humour aimed right at the computer literate person. This is perhaps the first major film to have a large part of the humour aimed at a certain, educated segment of the population. Tron is not funny because it has many misconceptions about computers that people can laugh at if they know the real world. The authors of Tron are (at least this is my impression) quite aware of the reality of computing. The jokes and fantasy are deliberately aimed at computer people. I went with a crowd of about 20 computer literate people here in a University town. There were other such people about the theatre as well. It was obvious who they were, because they were the ones laughing at and enjoying the movie, while the others were mostly confused. Non computer literates will still enjoy the fine graphics and video game action sequences, and some might appreciate the simple plot, but a degree in CS adds to a person's enjoyment of this flick. When you see Tron, remember it is a fantasy, and make NO attempt to link what you see to what you know of computers in the real world. I think you'll have a good time. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jul 1982 0125-PDT From: Jim McGrath Subject: TRON Star Watch: Real Star of New Movie Is a Computer By BOB THOMAS Associated Press Writer HOLLYWOOD (AP) - Imagine a kid with a $20-million video game to play with. Steve Lisberger is no kid - he turned 31 in April - but he was virtually handed such an opportunity by Walt Disney Productions. The wisdom of that move can be judged this month when ''TRON'' is released throughout the country. The chief actors in ''TRON'' are Jeff Bridges, David Warner, Bruce Boxleitner, Cindy Morgan and Bernard Hughes, but the real star may be a computer. ''This is the first time that computer-generated images have been used to a large extent in motion pictures,'' says director-writer Lisberger. ''There was about a minute in 'Star Wars' and more in Michael Crichton films ('Westworld' and 'Looker'), but the computer images were not part of the story. They are in 'TRON.' '' The plot concerns a computer genius (Bridges) who suspects evil doings by a corporate executive (Warner). During his investigation, Bridges is zapped into another dimension and finds himself a player in a gladiatorial video game. That's where Lisberger's technology comes in. ''What we have created is film footage that has literally been untouched by human hands,'' says the film maker, a slender man with a well-cropped beard and eager manner. ''Images have been fed into the computer to create an alternate dimension,''he said. ''It is a marriage of the new technology and artistry. And, of course, artistry must be predominate.'' ''TRON'' must be seen to be understood, at least by those without scientific minds. While Lisberger was applying final touches to the film, the studio showed a couple of reels depicting Bridges' battle with the deadly video game. The footage is truly spectacular and is sure to attract wide comment, even during a movie season loaded with special effects. How did Steve Lisberger win the chance to play with his gargantuan toy? ''I guess it started in 1977 when I was at my parents' house for Christmas and saw the first video games,'' said Lisberger, who was born in New York and reared in Cunningham Valley, Pa. ''I figured I'd better get with this new technology before it got me. ''I saw video games as a crack in the wall of sterile technology. They offered humor, excitement, good guys, bad guys, rules. The people who played them were not techno-freaks. Kids found the games approachable; they could master the technology.'' While attending the School of the Boston Museum of Fine Arts in 1974, Lisberger had formed an animation studio and for three years produced commercials and shorts for television. In 1974, he and partner Donald Kushner moved to Los Angeles with a plum assignment: to create a 90-minute cartoon ''Animalympics'' for NBC. When the United States pulled out of the Moscow Olympics, the project was doomed. ''We had borrowed $300,000 on 'Animalympics' so we had to get something else going,'' Lisberger said. That was ''TRON,'' which he and Kushner presented to Disney production chief Tom Wilhite with a script, storyboards and an outline of the technology. Wilhite demanded six months of tests to prove the technology would work. ''I knew it would,'' Lisberger remarked. ''What I didn't know was that I would have such a good time doing it.'' ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jul 82 19:20:16-EDT (Sat) From: Steve Platt Subject: TRON I saw TRON last night. It has been roughly 20 years since last I went to a Disney film. When I saw the last (either "Pinoccio" or "Flubber goes to Mars"), I was too young to appreciate the subtleties of character development and subplots. I just liked watching the screen. If you see TRON, go in a similar light. --- TRON: a fun movie, go to watch the video show. Plot and characters, when I watched for them, weren't worth it. As a computer graphicist, I had a blast watching the animated sequences -- some really great stuff! Most amusing line: (paraphrased) "They've barracaded themselves in; bring out the logic probe!" Real world thing to watch for (about the only one): Early in the film, the humanoids pass through a computer room. In the foreground, out of focus, you can glimpse a CRAY-1 piece of office furniture. (By the way, was this scene filmed at III?) What to do if you get bored: try to guess which graphics/ animation firms did which scenes and portions... (some of it was rather clear, from the techniques used. Rating: Mentally: * Visually: **** Sound: ** 1/2 (I think Carlos was rather restrained or underutilized.) -Steve ------------------------------ Date: 11 July 1982 23:15-EDT From: James W. Williams This is my first message to sf-lovers, so I hope this works! My sister recently read Crystal Singer and enjoyed it, but was somewhat dissapointed in McCaffrey's musical accuracy. My sister (who's BS is in Music Education) read to me some of the worst passages and even my slight knowledge of music was enough that I could tell it was wrong. I just saw TRON and boy do I have mixed feelings on this one! In some ways it is like a very poor man's "True Names" (Vernor Vinge). There is a civilization inside this vast computer network ruled by the MCP (Master Control Program (Male Chauvenist Pig?) who is the equivalent of The Empire Strikes Back's Emporer. His Darth Vader is a character named Sark. The good guys are TRON (Luke, wielding a Frisbee instead of a light sabre), Yori (Leia), and Flynn (Han Solo). Every one but Flynn is a computer program. Flynn is a human (a User) that has been Digitized by the MCP. Users are the gods of this world, and those who believe in them are religious fanatics. Flynn, of course, must stop the MCP and right a few other wrongs, etc... The movie's worst problem is that too many idea's are introduced and them not used. The computer graphics are very nice and intercut surprizingly well with the backlit and conventional animation used. There are quite a few in jokes, and I suspect that the movie may be somewhat incomprehensible to a totally computer-naive person. The score by Wendy Carlos is forgettable. Perhaps the best part of the movie is the dialog: MCP to Sark, after Sark's failure to do something: "How would you like working in a pocket calculator?" Yori to TRON: "There's not a circuit built that can hold you!" You get the idea... My appologies for the typos, I MUST learn the Editor on this system! Jim Williams Jim at Mit-ai ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 13-Jul JPM@Mit-Ai #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #14 *** EOOH *** Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1982 5:37PM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #14 To: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 14 Jul 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 14 Today's Topics: SF Books - From The Legend Of Biel & The Demolished Man & This Perfect Day & Capitol & Hot Sleep & The Demu Trilogy & A Canticle For Leibowitz & Lord Of Light & The Shrinking Man & The Dragon Masters & Heinlein & The Deceivers & ADA & LOCUS Poll, SF TV - HHGttG, SF Movies - TRON & Megaforce, SF Music - Theme Songs, SF Topics - Hard SF & Brain Use, Humor - Genderless Video Games ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun Jul 11 17:07:21 1982 From: decvax!harpo!druxv!jmb at Berkeley Subject: Book reviews I spotted the plea for other good science fiction while browsing through SFL the other day. Here are a few suggestions... "From The Legend Of Biel" by Mary Staton (ACE) This novel has just about everything, from interstellar travel to growing up to intelligent computers to psychology. Prepare to think. "The Demolished Man" by Alfred Bester (POCKET) A classic Bester novel (written in 1951) and better than most new 'science fiction' available now. A telepathic detective attempts to track down a megalomaniac who killed in a society of telepaths - and got away with it. "This Perfect Day" by Ira Levin (Fawcett) Banish thoughts of Rosemary's Baby... Here Levin describes a future world controlled by a huge computer system for the good of all, and what happens to those who rebel. "Capitol" "Hot Sleep" by Orson Scott Card (ACE) Although not masterpieces, these books have a lot of interesting ideas. The breakdown of galactic civilization (where have we heard that before) and other nifty things. "A Canticle For Leibowitz" by Walter M. Miller, Jr. (Bantam) Another oldie (1959) written when 'after the bomb' books were popular. This is not your normal doomsday book, though. Many centuries after the war, the catholic church arises from the ashes... and the cycle begins again. "The Demu Trilogy" by F. M. Busby (Pocket/Timescape) Again, not a masterpiece, but enjoyable. There is a race loose in the galaxy who want to turn you into one of them - by cutting you apart and putting you together they way they like it. This is a trilogy, and the first book, "Cage a Man", you may have heard of... "Lord Of Light" by Roger Zelazny (Avon) My favorite Zelazny book. "The Shrinking Man" by Richard Matheson (Berkeley) Another old one (1969) about a man who begins to shrink (proportionally of course) and his adventures in the cruel world. A nice book to practise "suspension of disbelief". "The Dragon Masters" by Jack Vance (ACE) An oldie (1962) about war between US and THEM, and we keep slaves of theirs, and they keep slaves of ours, and who will win? An aside... I am disappointed with mister Robert A. Heinlein. It seems to me that he has become a dirty old man titillating himself by writing dirty science fiction books. His earlier 'sex & sf' books are classics in the genre ('Glory Road', 'Farnham's Freehold', 'Moon is a Harsh Mistress'). However, starting about 'I Will Fear No Evil' he began repeating himself and became boring. I tired of 'Number of the Beast' about half way through and never finished. Has Bob run out of ideas? Is this the only way he can sell books anymore, through sex and pieces of other people's stories? Jim Barton BTL ...!druxs!druxv!jmb 30K49 11900 Pecos Denver, Colorado 80303 ------------------------------ Date: 6 July 1982 2107-EDT (Tuesday) From: Joe.Newcomer at CMU-10A Subject: The Deceivers Actually, the book is not that bad; the problem is if you approach it expecting a story by Bester (I agree that the 'true successor' line is misleading). On the other hand, as a light story suitable for use when recovering from Dick, depressed Ellison, Malzberg, or any other downbeat author, it fills the bill. Keep it around for those nights when you are bored out of your mind, or too tired to concentrate on anything substantial, or whatever. Possibly because I read it at a time when I needed a content-free story I found it entertaining (yes, the CS is silly, but I've learned to expect that. Only Hogan seems to get it right). Entertaining, yes. Scientific, no. The characters are sort of beaver board (not quite cardboard, but not much deeper). A Bester story? Not really. Keep it in the same pile as "Lucky Starr and the Creature from the Black Lagoon" and you won't be disappointed; you may (as I did) enjoy the silly thing. joe [ This is in response to a message on The Deceivers distributed in volume 6, issue 2. -- Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jul 82 2:14-PDT From: mclure at SRI-UNIX Subject: out of the quagmire Tired of the same old sh*t? Frustrated by SF authors unable to control plot, demonstrate imagination with the English language, unable to bring novels to reasonable conclusions? Read ADA by Vladimir Nabokov. As far as I'm concerned, this is the best alternate-worlds SF I have read and easily among the 10 best SF books I've read. It is vastly superior to Dick's alternate worlds books. Some critics have denied ADA is SF. Balderdash. The reason this came to mind was that while I was at Westercon in Phoenix over the July 4 weekend, Brunner happened to mention it in much the same words, adding that it was ludicrous ADA didn't win the Hugo/Nebula/whatever back in 1969. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jul 1982 11:17:11-EDT From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX Subject: locus extracts Was that your typo, or did they actually credit WINDHAVEN only to George R. R. Martin?!? (It was co-authored with Lisa Tuttle.) [ This is in response to a message containing an excerpt from LOCUS distributed in volume 5, issue 75. -- Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 1982 1417-MDT From: Michi Wada Subject: Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy A friend told me HhGttG (English TV version) is running right now in Buffalo. Miami will start running HhGttG on July 25th. Chicago has bought it, but unknown as to when it will run. Does anybody know if it is or will be running anywhere else? ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jul 1982 1923-EDT From: John R. Covert Subject: Starting Friday, 16 July on WMEB, Orono, Maine The TV Guide listing for 10 PM this Friday is: /12/ Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy - Comedy. Debut: Arthur Dent is whisked off the Earth by his alien friend Ford Prefect moments before the planet's destruction. Together they begin a series of intergalactic adventures. ------------------------------ Date: Sun Jul 11 18:17:21 1982 From: decvax!watmath!bstempleton at Berkeley Subject: The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, BBC-TV version Don't Panic! HHGTTG is now showing on PBS, as I reported earlier. In my area, times are 10:00 on Friday night and 11:30 on Saturday night. Episode one was just shown. Check your own listings for times. The series stars Peter Jones as the Book and Simon Jones as Arthur Dent (these are both from the radio cast) also, Mark Wing-Davy will play Zephod Beeblebrox when that character appears, you'll remember his voice too. A new actor plays Ford Prefect, but he is fairly good. The TV version has a lot of similar jokes to the radio one, but there is new material, and of course visual effects. I'll be collecting this series on videotape for sure. ------------------------------ Date: 12 July 1982 15:08 edt From: Boebert.SCOMP at MIT-MULTICS Subject: HHGtG and TRON 1. HHGtG snuck into town this Saturday. A 30-minute segment on PBS, so presumably we are going to get the whole thing. Special effects a little above the Dr. Who level; an adequate Dent and a perfect Prefect. 2. An excellent article on TRON and computer animation is in the latest Smithsonian magazine. Earl ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 1982 1932-PDT From: Jim McGrath Subject: Megaforce Megaforce - maybe one star (if you're in the proper mood) Commander Ace Hunter leads an elite multinational fighting force, armed with the best weapons modern technology can provide, in a fight for truth, justice, and comic book heros. The fact that Megaforce is a comic book brought to life on the big screen is not a major problem for me - afterall, that's all Star Wars or Raiders of the Lost Ark were, and I LOVED them. But these latter two movies had two qualities Megaforce lacks - a decent script and believable special effects. When Ace Hunter tells the enemy commander "the good guys always win in the end," you do not moan - for by the time you reached that point in the movie so many inane lines have been uttered that you have grown accustomed to them. But I still flinched when I witnessed "special effects" that our school photography club could have improved upon. The ONLY thing that prevented me from walking out of the theatre (something I almost never do) was the acting. The actors were simply excellent at their parts, and I actually rated them superior to most of the actors in Star Wars, et al. However, they cannot redeem a script that tries to be pulpish but ends up turning into pulp instead. And no matter how hard you try, it is difficult getting into the movie when so many bad special effect force you to suspend your belief. It's too bad - they obviously spent a bit filming this movie (a lot of action with vehicles that was not stock footage). Although in this movie climate it will probably bring a decent return to the backers, it ultimately does a disservice to the industry and science fiction, since claptrap like this will dilute the market for well crafted fantasy and science fiction (as the grade B movies of the '50s did). Jim ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jul 1982 21:52:10-PDT From: CSVAX.wildbill at Berkeley Subject: Stealing theme songs This is nothing new. NBC used the theme from RotLA for a while during their major league baseball preview sequences, back when that movie was getting lots of attention. I also seem to remember hearing the Star Wars theme used in another sports plug somewhere. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 1982 13:40 PDT From: kolling at PARC-MAXC Subject: Speaking of Dragon's Egg, when is there going to be another book, Dr. Forward? Karen ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 8 July 1982 15:47-EDT From: Vince Fuller Subject: Real SF writers don't... I believe it is safe to say that Forward has another book in the offing. A first draft has been produced (which I have been fortunate enough to read) and looks quite good. It is on the topic of interstellar travel using light sail propulsion of a type that appears quite feasible given a slightly more advanced state of technology than our own (but only slightly - say within the next century). I believe it is scheduled for serialization in Analog (?) sometime in the fall, but I am not sure. Perhaps someone else on the list who knows more about this could say more. --vaf ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 1982 12:45:47-PDT From: jef at LBL-UNIX (Jef Poskanzer [rtsg]) Subject: Oh where, oh where, is the hard SF... One more author to look for: David Brin. As far as I know, he has one novel out (Sundiver), and a number of novelettes in Analog. Strong, likeable, human characters (even the aliens!), combined with intricate background material and faultless science. Really good stuff. If only we could get him to write more... Re: the sub-quark physics in "Voyage from Yesteryear". This is a mildly munged version of a real-world theory. I believe it was thought up by Abdus Saalam, recent co-Nobel winner. In the real world, the hypothetical particles are called rishons. --- Jef ------------------------------ Date: 9 July 1982 18:04-EDT From: Allan C. Wechsler Subject: Neuropsychological folklore. In this message I will recount several pieces of neuropsychological folklore. They have several features in common: 1. They are widespread: almost everybody in our society has heard them. 2. They are widely believed. 3. They have a sensational nature. 4. They are one of the following: a. Blatantly false or fallacious b. Nonsensical, that is, depending on words which are hard or impossible to define rigorously c. Almost impossible to verify. I am interested in tracking down the sources of these modern folk beliefs. I hope many contributors to this list will help me out by telling me the earliest time they ever heard any of these. Send your responses to me (ACW@AI), not to SF-LOVERS. Of course, other items of folklore might be of general interest. I. People use their brains very inefficiently. In fact, people use only a very small portion of their brains. [Individual instances of this belief often give the exact percentage.] II. People only /seem/ to forget things. In fact, nothing is ever forgotten. Every experience you have ever had since infancy is recorded in full detail somewhere in your brain. You can retrieve these memories by hypnosis [or direct electrical stimulation of the cortex, or meditation, or scientology, or ...]. III.People sleep in order to dream. Dreaming is the only essential element of sleep. IV. Most people usually dream in black and white. Some exceptional people usually dream in color. Most people have an occasional color dream. V. Some people who have used LSD very occasionally experience "flashbacks", in which the symptoms of taking the drug recur months or years after the last use. ---Allan ------------------------------ Date: 9 July 1982 19:39 edt From: Walters.SoftArts at MIT-MULTICS Subject: PacAnimals What's a thickskinned PacAnimal called? Why, a Pac-a-Derm (commonly found in India and Pac-i-stan). ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 16-Jul JPM@Mit-Ai #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #15 *** EOOH *** Date: Friday, July 16, 1982 2:12AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #15 To: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 15 Jul 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 15 Today's Topics: SF Movies - TRON, Spoiler - TRON ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13-Jul-82 8:15:59 PDT (Tuesday) From: Chapman.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Review of TRON I enjoyed it. The plot was thin, so were the characters (but what can you expect from programs that only exist a bits and bytes), but I still found it a fun movie to watch. I liked the way some of the dialogue went together, using computer hack terms and phrases, and it is the only GOOD rotoscoping I have seen (i.e. where the effects were worth the trouble; I DON'T like Bachshi's (sp?) stuff). The animation was really superb, not like Walt's old style (which the Secret of NIMH is; I really loved that one.), but very interestingly done. Altogether, a fun movie to see at least once, especially with a bunch of computer freak friends (as I did; there's a regular group of about 15 of us that have been going en masse to all the new flicks this summer). Cheryl ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jul 1982 2237-EDT From: Joseph A. Frisbie Subject: Tron We all went to see Tron last night. It was well worth the trip. I would say that it would be most appropriate for people who have used timesharing systems (to catch the computer jokes), or for children (who can follow the rather simple action-packed plot). The animation was vastly superior to anything I've seen in a new feature length movie. (Much better than the last "revolutionary" technique Bakshi used in LotR). Joe ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jul 1982 1742-PDT From: Robert Amsler Subject: TRON Sigh! Walt Disney Studios has done it again--that is, if you remember the Black Hole? The best I can say for TRON is that the computer graphics are pretty. I don't think I can say anything else favorable. The plot is about at the level of "The Hardy Boys fight Video Games". Presumably one is being asked to see this fantasy as a modern-day version of The Wizard of Oz, or maybe The Yellow Submarine. There is something of the air of a one-line joke running through TRON, that it's somehow infinitely amusing to think of programs as personified in people dressed in costumes with day-glo stripes on them, and the inside of a computer as a huge world of computer graphics. The outside world is seen as composed of "users" (see, isn't it lots of fun) who seem to be indistinguishable from programmers and who create these internal electronic alter-egos. The big bad program is subverting all the other programs, you see, and its creator, named Dillinger (a descendant of John's, no doubt) has stolen someone else's video game code and made megabucks with it (Hummm... maybe this would have been a good western, with program "rustler's"...). The good guys (think "Hardy Boys") need to get the goods on this low-down crook, and anyway, the battle is fought both inside and outside the computer until good wins out, vanquishing evil. While TRON has much admirable computer graphics, there are lots of rough spots to what you'd traditionally call special effects and some of the ordinary props aren't well integrated (The heroine has one scene in which the flat glass of her eyeglasses clearly shows they are fake... A superimposed photographic image has a jittery boundary with its computer generated background). These people clearly didn't get the message--special effects won't SAVE your film if the other ingredients aren't of the same quality. TRON has all the earmarks of a film thought up by 50-year olds contemplating what they think kids know about video games and computers. The metaphor of a computer fantasy world is tainted by the efforts to sprinkle authentic jargon around in ways that render the movie a farce to adults. Oh, yes... one other good thing I can say about the movie. From the reviews it has gotten in the papers, I'd say their millions spent on promotion were worthwhile. I never would have dreamed that Wall Street folks were so discerning, though. It was previewed for them and Walt Disney stock dropped immediately. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jul 1982 07:17:57-PDT From: decvax!duke!uok!uokvax!jab at Berkeley Subject: Tron Graphics rates about 8.5 or 9 (on a scale of 1 - 10). Plot rates -2 (on a scale of 1 - 10). Some of the things that Disney put together (such as the "solar sailer", or whatever the glider that flew on the laser was called!) were very nice. In fact, some of the elements captured are similar to Walt Disney at his best. A movie to *SEE*. Don't expect anything from the plot, and you won't be disappointed. Jeff ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jul 1982 1128-PDT From: Craig W. Reynolds Subject: TRON As I was reading today's digest I noted down some things that were mentioned to comment on, I've already forgotten who said what. For those who don't know me, I was the lead computer graphicist at triple-I, one of the four companies doing computer graphics for the film. The term "de-resed" (sic., in the script it was always spelled "derezzed") comes from "resolution" from graphics (bandwidth, pixels per image). As with most of the pseudo-jargon used in the film, this term was corrupted in meaning, but basically rezzing up to high res is good, derezzing is bad. What "computer generated shadows" from the real actors? I can assure you there was no such. The scene with the good guys sneaking across the machine room (in the real world) was filmed (I'm pretty sure) at LLL, along with the "laser lab" stuff (which was Shiva) and the ("Now that's a BIG ...") door. Triple-I has no CRAY, we did production on a Foonly F1. Side note: the new firm Digital Productions does have a CRAY-1. As for who did what, the "warrior formation" (first thing in the film) and the BIT was done by Digital Effects Inc. The title sequence and the real world/ electronic world transition sequence was by Robert Able and Associates. The cycle race and most of the shots with the "recos" and the tanks were all by MAGI-Synthevision.e Solar Sailer, most of Sark's carrier and the MCP were done by Information International Inc. Apparently, TRON grossed $5 million in the first three days. The cost was about $20.5 mil. By Hollywood logic, a film must make 200% of the "negative cost" before it is considered profitable, hence $40 million. One of my favorites was the "super" which read "Meanwhile, in the Real world". Greetings Programs! -c ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jul 1982 1944-PDT From: Bill Subject: TRON-MCP Hmmm...Way back when - 1964 - when I worked for Burroughs on B5000s and their various upgrades - They called their monitor the MCP, ie, Master Control Program. I guess this is an historical comment. Bill ------------------------------ Date: Friday, July 16, 1982 2:12AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Subject: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following three messages in this digest discuss some plot details and dialog in the movie TRON. They may not wish to read on. ------------------------------ Date: 13 July 1982 23:22-EDT From: Charles F. Von Rospach Subject: TRON I have to reply to some of what BANDY at MIT-AI says about TRON. I personally found the alter-ego approach intriguing. While not ALL of my programs are alter-ego's of mine, and not all of the programs I look at written by other programmers can be considered alter ego's of them, there IS a correlation between a programmer and his programs. If you care about a program, it is going to show. The less trivial a program is, the more of a programmer is going to leak through. All programmers can tell a good programmer from a bad, simply by his code, I find that after working in a shop for a while, it is real easy to decide who wrote what simply by looking at the style of the program. There are programs and programmers that are solidy, and there are programs and programmers that are flaky as all get out. When I saw TRON, I found I was able to suspend disbelief throughout almost ALL of the movie. The only thing that I found that I couldn't but was the MCP. The visualization of that program was just too hokey compared to the realism of the rest (taken in comparison). I was also terribly disappointed that the lead female's part was relegated to that of helper and sex object. I can see programs interacting intelligently. MAybe not now, but a few years from now, maybe. I couldn't, however, believe in inter-program sexual relations (more on that later). Overall, I was VERY impressed with the movie. I feel that it will do as much for movies in this point in time as 2001 did back then,. It isn't a perfect movie, but its a great movie. I suggest it as required viewing in Computer Science 101. It affected me enough to make me sit down and ponder before I turned on my Apple when I got home. Now, a minor flame: I am getting VERY tired of obligatory sex in movies. I recently saw Wolfen on HBO, and there was a scene in there that, at least to me, was there for no other reason than to exist as a sex scene. The relations between TRON and the female character was similarly out of place, if milder. Now, I don't care about the sex, as long as it is used to forward the plot or have some other value, but in most cases, it seems that the scenes being written in are there simply for the sake of skin. Am I the only one who notices this, or are there others who agree with me? chuck ------------------------------ Date: 12 July 1982 18:42-EDT (Monday) From: Mijjil (Matthew J. Lecin) Subject: TRON (spoiler-warning-P?) Well, this is NOT a review. A comment: the whole concept of "bringing down" the MCP, "crashing the system" is going to start a whole new wave of adolescents from California trying to crash whatever machine they can dial into. Should be interesting to see how this "glorification" of such an act, defeating a system's security, effects the next phase of kids getting into computers... Other comment: it was definitely weird hearing SOME people laugh at names like RAM, or Flynn's great logical conclusion: "Hmn, positive or negative only? You must be a bit!" What did everyone think of the "bit"? It very cutely formed a nice, symmetrical polyhedron when indicating YES, and some abstract oddness when indicating NO... "Another mouth to feed..." (YES YES YES YES...) /Mijjil ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jul 1982 1635-PDT From: First at SUMEX-AIM Subject: TRON - Who's the REAL leader? *SPOILER* TRON depicts Dillinger as a greedy evil bureaucrat and Flynn as the genius hacker--the rightful leader of ENCOM. (In fact, he seems to have taken Dillinger's position at the conclusion of the film). But it was Dillinger who wrote MCP, a operating system capable of independent thought and of overrrunning the machine whereas Flynn wrote five (albeit slick) video games. Now who's the REAL genius? --Michael (FIRST@SUMEX-AIM) P.S. I saw in several entries about the "Secret of NIMH", the name NIMH spelled in lower case like it was somebody's name. NIMH is the National Institutes of Mental Health, the NSF equivalent for Psychiatry/ Psychology/Social Work, i.e. a source of funding using government money and actual research labs in Bethesda Md. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 16-Jul JPM@Mit-Ai #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #16 *** EOOH *** Date: Friday, July 16, 1982 3:51AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #16 To: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 16 Jul 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 16 Today's Topics: SF Books - John W. Campbell Memorial Award & Forward's Next Book & Crystal Singer, SF TV - HHGttG, SF Music - Theme Songs, SF Topics - Hard SF & SF Ghetto & Brain Use, Humor - Brain Use & Genderless Video Games, SF Movies - Star Trek & Star Wars, Spoiler - Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 Jul 82 11:44-PDT From: mclure at SRI-UNIX Subject: some awards Hoban Receives Award for ''Riddley Walker'' LAWRENCE, Kan. (AP) - Russell Hoban, a writer of children's books and science fiction, was named winner Saturday of the John W. Campbell Memorial Award for the best science fiction novel of 1981. Hoban, an American who lives in London, was cited for his novel ''Riddley Walker'' about life in a futuristic world 2,000 years after a nuclear holocaust. Neil Barron of Vista, Calif., a book company representative and former librarian, was named the 1982 winner of the Pilgrim Award for outstanding scholarship in science fiction. He was cited for his contributions to science fiction bibliography and criticism. The awards were presented at the annual meeting of the Science Fiction Research Association held in conjunction with the University of Kansas Intensive English Institute of the Teaching of Science Fiction. The Campbell award is named for the late John W. Campbell, who was editor of Astounding Science Fiction and its successor, Analog, for 34 years. The Pilgrim Award is sponsored by the research association. ------------------------------ Date: 14 July 1982 1001-EDT From: Hank Walker at CMU-10A Subject: Bob Forward's next book I believe that it will be serialized in Analog starting in December, or maybe he said November. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jul 1982 10:42:57-EDT From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX Subject: errors in CRYSTAL SINGER Sigh. I suppose I'll have to go read the foolish thing now, and I don't have full access to the MITSFS or the inclination to buy another book. Anne McCaffrey was an opera singer and director in Boston back when anybody who tried to do opera in Boston was considered crazy (i.e., even before Sarah Caldwell). She may not have the academic or technological background (I know she was a Cliffie but not her major (don't think it was music)) but she probably has a lot more practical experience than any newly-minted BS (BS?!? in music?!?!? (yes, I know that probably means from MIT; my point stands)). Now if you confined your disparagements to her knowledge of, say, the physics of music, that might be more believable. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jul 1982 07:40:59-PDT From: decvax!duke!uok!uokvax!mwm at Berkeley Subject: Crystal Singer I finished Crystal Singer not to long ago (about a week), and I didn't notice the parallel in plot line. But it's been a LONG time since I looked at Dragon or The Ship Who Sang. Once it was pointed out, yes, I have to admit that it's there. I think that the plot is more along the lines of `adapting to a new environment,' as opposed to `paying back one's dues' or `achieving in one's profession.' I guess its all in how you look at it. mike ------------------------------ Date: 13 July 1982 05:37-EDT From: "Richard H.E. Smith, II" Subject: Villiers in Asimov/Panshin Contrary to someone's comment in SFL V7#1, the Villiers who gets killed in Asimov's story "The Dying Night" has the first name Romero, so there is no conflict with Panshin's character Anthony Villiers. I don't have a copy of the Panshin right here, so I can't check the dates... the Asimov story first appeared in F&SF in July '56. [ This message is in reference the contribution that originally referenced a message in volume 5, issue 63, describing Anthony Villiers as a character in a series by Alexei Panshin. -- Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jul 1982 0852-PDT From: WMartin at Office-8 (Will Martin) Subject: HHGttG in St. Louis For anybody interested, Hitchhiker[etc] is carried in the St. Louis area and on related cable systems at 11 PM Sunday nights on KETC (Channel 9). An obvious plot to reduce Monday-morning productivity below its already-low level by depriving us poor addicts of sleep... Will ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 1982 09:38:56-EDT From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX Subject: hard sf suggestions One of the problems with hard SF is that it can become dated so easily. Consider (since it's not on your list) the Venus Equilateral stories of George O. Smith, harking back (as a recent reviewer put it) to when precision adjusting tools for electronics included hammers, 12" wrenches, and welding torches. You can also try digging 1940's and 50's issues of ASTOUNDING out of your local library, or out of the MITSFS if you're in Boston, or the Ackerman collection if you're in LA, or . . . . The market for and interest in hard SF has died off (although that same reviewer notes that it was never very coherent---in the 40's, for instance, Hubbard and van Vogt were central figures \in/ \ASTOUNDING/!). Other George O. Smith is tolerable. ------------------------------ Date: 13 July 1982 05:34-EDT From: "Richard H.E. Smith, II" Subject: Authors who aren't SF-authors I heard on the radio the other day that Indianapolis was holding a giant Vonnegut festival, and the guest-of-honor refused to attend. He's supposed to have said something like "seems like the kind of thing you do when an author is dead...". The festival also honored Kurt Vonnegut (the non-SF-author) 's parent and grandparent, both of which were architects who contributed to Indy in some noticeable fashion. I guess SF isn't the only thing that Vonnegut denies... seems to me he's picked on Hoosiers in at least one of his books. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jul 1982 2148-PDT From: Henry W. Miller Subject: Movie songs, etc. During the All Star game last summer, the soundtrack for "Star Trek - The Motion Picture" was used. -HWM ------------------------------ Date: 07/09/82 11:57:33 From: JGA@MIT-MC Subject: 10% of brain When someone says to you (in a serious manner), "Did you know that the average person only uses 10% of their brain?", the correct response is to look them straight in the eye, and say (in an even more serious tone of voice): "Of course. The other 90% is the operating system." Practice this in front of the mirror a couple of times first - one little giggle can destroy all credibility. John. ------------------------------ Date: 11 July 1982 01:00-EDT From: Andrew Scott Beals Subject: Genderless Video Games Q: How do PacMan games communicate with each other? A: In PacKets. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 82 1:28:10-EDT (Thu) From: the Boris Subject: Trek and Star Wars. Why was Star Trek I bad, Star Trek II OK, but Star Wars great? Star Trek started as a TV series. The secret of a TV series is to establish a Formula which allows entertaining fare to be produced by technically competent but less than inspired people. Trek has a (by now) well developed universe, set of characters, and a good notion of what makes a good story. If the formula is followed, entertaining fare will result. Star wars, on the other hand, was made by Lucas. Star Trek I was very, very, bad because it violated the formula. It dragged - Trek was built on pace and action. It violated character - at the start of the movie, Kirk acted like a jerk. Kirk is the eternal Hero, and he makes a very poor anti-hero. Also, they were recycling a past script - no one really wanted to see NOMAD again. Finally, the film just wasn't very well made. The Earth was seconds from destruction, and the director STILL couldn't get us us the slightest bit upset or apprehensive. When I saw the movie, I paid $1.50 at the Campus movie house, and didn't feel I was getting a particularly good deal. Star Trek II was a reasonable film. Now don't get me wrong - I'm not complaining. Most Science Fiction films are Horrid (e.g. The Thing, The Black Hole, etc.). Trek II worked, and I look forward to shelling out $4 ($6? $10? $100 if the economy ...) every year or two to see another Trek Episode. The movie worked because it followed the Trek formula: Bad guys get the upper hand. Kirk outsmarts them. Good guys win. And, along the way, we see the characters being people, not cardboard imitations. Of course, there was some sloppy film making. I won't go into the technical things - space battles, scale, and that sort of stuff, or into dramatic things - Scotty carrying a dead crewman to the bridge. Sure, it could have been better. But the movie followed the Trek formula faithfully, and was technically competent enough to not lose us. It gave us what we expected. Star Wars was a great film. There is only one reason for this: George Lucas is a genius. No formula can substitute for excellence. Lucas is not a literary marvel; he could have stolen the plot out of any of (all of?) a hundred different books. He is a master of film. The movie moves: it is full of action, and the characters pop into focus instantly. How long does it take us to recognize Darth Vadar as an Evil Heavy? All of two seconds? And every time we turn around there is something unexpected or somehow marvelous: Sand-crawlers? Taverns with 50,000 flavors of aliens? THE DEATH STAR! Finally, Star Wars was well edited - it has no time to waste on gratuitous anything. Lucas would have cut the gratuitous shot of Scotty carrying the dead crewman onto the bridge. The result is a movie which demands, gets, and rewards your constant, undivided attention. I look forward to more Star Trek movies. The formula works. As long as competent people follow the formula, and don't try to be geniuses when they're not, we will continue to get reasonable, watchable films that don't leave us feeling cheated. But don't expect another Star Wars, because you won't get it - genius is, after all, a rare commodity. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jul 1982 05:18:43-PDT From: harpo!floyd!rjs at Berkeley Subject: Roddenberry and Star Trek In V6 #1 of SF-LOVERS Digest George Otto asked about the involvement of Gene Roddenberry in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan. At Balticon 13 (April '82), prior to a showing of Star Wreck: The Commotion Picture the creator of this video tape editing spoof showed some slides of the then upcoming ST:TWoK. During this preview, she said that Roddenberry's only involvement with ST:TWoK was to receive a royalty. He did, however, reserve the right to pull his name from the movie if he didn't approve of the final product. Thus his appearance as Executive Consultant in the credits simply indicates his approval of the movie as a whole. Marcia Snyder / rjs (harpo!floyd!rjs) ------------------------------ Date: 14 July 1982 21:47-EDT From: Phillip C. Reed Subject: Star Trek - TWOK Non-Spoiler I was talking with some friends about the Koborashi Maru (sp?) test, and Kirk's "cheating", when somebody pointed out that based on the evidence, Kirk must have gotten into Star Fleet Academy on a football scholarship. ...phil ------------------------------ Date: Friday, July 16, 1982 3:51AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Subject: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! All of the remaining messages in this digest discuss some plot details in the movie and the book Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. Some readers may not wish to read on. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jul 1982 15:35:31-PDT From: decvax!duke!mcnc!idis!mi-cec!rwg at Berkeley Subject: Re: Chekov in ST2 (slight spoiler - haven't you seen it YET?) It's been pointed out already that the novel fills in many of the movie's gaps: Chekov had to go outside because beaming was impossible inside (the atmospheric conditions were such that it would be "iffy" even in the open). When Chekov sees Khan's people, he indeed screams to be beamed up, but the ship gets little more than static. Besides, if Reliant's crew heard Chekov shout "Beam us up, Enterprise!," they may have been too confused to act in time (yes, picky picky picky...). ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 8 July 1982 15:32-EDT From: Vince Fuller Subject: SPOILER WARNING - comment on ST-II TWOK I suggest that you read the novel ST-II for an answer for this and other apparent inconsistencies. The reason given in the book is that the sand and turbulence in the atmosphere of Ceti Alpha (or Alpha Ceti) V made transporter use marginal even in the open, and definitely impossible from within a closed structure. (sorry if this has already been answered earlier) --vaf ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 8 July 1982 15:42-EDT From: Vince Fuller Subject: STII:TWOK Again, you should take a look at the novel version. In the novel, the bridge crew is decimated so one additional, experienced albeit injured officer, is a great help. Also, I believe Chekov is explicitly referred to as a Commander in the book. --vaf ------------------------------ Date: 9 July 1982 00:18-EDT From: "James Lewis Bean, Jr." Subject: Tears in Mr. Saavik's eyes I saw one at the funeral.. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 16-Jul JPM@Mit-Ai #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #17 *** EOOH *** Date: Friday, July 16, 1982 4:23AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #17 To: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 17 Jul 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 17 Today's Topics: SF Books - Bestsellers, SF Movies - Poltergeist & Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan & The Sword and the Sorcerer & The Thing & TRON & Revenues, Random Topics - Movies and Video Games ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 Jul 1982 0228-PDT From: Jim McGrath Subject: Science Fiction books which are Best Sellers (hardcover) Best Selling Books (Hardcover) c. 1982 N.Y. Times News Service The listings below are based on computer-processed sales figures from 1,600 bookstores in every region of the United States. This Last Weeks Week Week On List THE PARSIFAL MOSAIC, by Robert Ludlum. 1 1 18 (Random House, $15.95.) Through many exploits and hairbreadth escapes, Michael Havelock saves the world from nuclear extinction. THE ONE TREE, by Stephen R. Donaldson. 5 6 12 (Ballantine-Del Rey, $14.50.) Book Two in the science fiction series, ''The Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant.'' TWICE SHY, by Dick Francis. (Putnam's $13.95.) 7 13 14 A greedy gang at large in the world of horse racing and computer programming. FRIDAY, by Robert A. Heinlein. (Holt, 8 12 4 Rinehart & Winston, $14.95) Adventures on Earth of an artificial person, a creature of genetic engineering, in the service of a Boss in outer space. FOR SPECIAL SERVICES, by John Gardner 9 7 9 (Coward, McCann & Geoghegan, $9.95) James Bond against his old enemy SPECTRE. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jul 1982 0227-PDT From: Jim McGrath Subject: Science Fiction books which are Best Sellers (paperback) Best Selling Books (Paperback) c. 1982 N.Y. Times News Service MASS MARKET Mass-market paperbacks are softcover books sold at newsstands, variety stores and supermarkets, as well as in bookstores. This listing is based on computer-processed reports from bookstores and representative wholesalers with more than 40,000 outlets across the United States. 3. E.T.: The Extra-Terrestrial, by William Kotzwinkle. (Berkley, $2.95.) Novelization of the current film. 4. STAR TREK: The Wrath of Khan, by Vonda N. McIntyre. (Pocket, $2.50.) Novelization of the current space-adventure film. 9. LICENSE RENEWED, by John Gardner. (Berkley, $2.95) James Bond against a mad nuclear physicist: fiction. 13. THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST, by Robert Heinlein. (Fawcett, $3.95) A journey through alternate universes: science fiction. TRADE Trade paperbacks are softcover book usually sold in bookstores and at an average prices higher than mass-market paperbacks. This listing is based on computer-processed reports from 1,600 bookstores in every region of the United States. 13. GOD EMPEROR OF DUNE, by Frank Herbert. (Berkley, $6.95.) Fourth novel in the series about the planet Dune. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jul 1982 0125-PDT From: Jim McGrath Subject: Capsule Reviews Poltergeist. Producer Steven Spielberg delivers the thriller that the ''Amityville Horror'' dreamed of being. It begins in a comfortable American suburb, where a happy family is subjected to a series of weird events that lead up to terrifying spirits taking total possession of their house. The special effects are impeccable and the story well done. With Craig T. Nelson, Jobeth Williams, Beatrice Straight, Dominque Dunne, Oliver Robins and Heather O'Rourke. Rated PG. 3 stars. Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan - The movie they should have made the first time. While it doesn't slight the special effects of the earlier edition, the emphasis is back where it belongs - on quality of character, and twists and turns of plot. The issues - love, loyalty, innocence, aging, reason and emotion - are both timely and timeless. With Ricardo Montalban, William Shatner, Leonard Nimoy, DeForest Kelly, Paul Winfield and newcomer Kirstie Alley. Rated PG. 3 1/2 stars. The Sword and the Sorcerer - Another medieval swashbuckler that looks great but lacks real characters for the audience to care about. Still, Kathleen Beller makes an intelligent heroine, and the makeup is triumphantly good. Rated R. 2 1/2 stars. The Thing. John Carpenter's new thriller is about a group of scientists that sets out for the Antarctic to gather data about the region, but instead is confronted by a ''thing'' that threatens the existence of mankind. Kurt Russell stars. Rated R. 2 1/2 stars. Tron. Jeff Bridges plays Flynn, a video game virtuoso, who suspects ENCOM, a huge communications conglomerate for which he works, of stealing some of his video game programs. With Bruce Boxleitner, David Warner, Barnard Hughes and Cindy Morgan. Rated PG. 4 stars. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jul 1982 1427-PDT From: Robert Amsler Subject: 11 Top-Grossing Films (week ending June 30) (source: Variety) Ranks: Last-week =>This week Film Name (Rank Change + = up 1, - = down 1) Total to Date Weeks on Chart 1 => 1. E T - The Extra-Terrestrial $17,701,678 ( 3 weeks) 5 => 2. Firefox (+++) $ 5,570,778 ( 2 weeks) 2 => 3. Rocky III (-) $21,383,598 ( 5 weeks) 4 => 4. Poltergeist $11,868,727 ( 4 weeks) 5. Blade Runner $ 2,056,200 ( 1 week) 3 => 6. Star Trek II-Wrath of Khan (---) $14,255,809 ( 4 weeks) 6 => 7. Annie (-) $ 5,755,672 ( 6 weeks) 8. The Thing $ 1,253,900 ( 1 week) 8 => 9. Author Author (-) $ 1,635,872 ( 2 weeks) 9 =>10. Bambi (-) $ 3,623,784 (14 weeks) 11. Megaforce $ 598,400 ( 1 week) ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jul 1982 0125-PDT From: Jim McGrath Subject: Summer Movies By ALJEAN HARMETZ c. 1982 N.Y. Times News Service HOLLYWOOD - The summer is not half-over, but it is already apparent which movie will be the summer's big box-office winner. To the accompaniment of Fourth of July firecrackers, Steven Spielberg's fantasy about a lonely visitor from outer space, ''E.T. - the Extra-Terrestrial,'' has overtaken the third installment of Sylvester Stallone's saga about a boxer, ''Rocky III.'' After 39 days in theaters, United Artists' ''Rocky III'' has earned $72.5 million. After 25 days, Universal's ''E.T.'' has earned $87 million. Of this, $17,254,946 million was taken in during the Fourth of July weekend, the largest four-day gross in Hollywood history. ''We have broken a record every day since we established the opening 10-day record against 'Superman II' two weeks ago,'' Gordon Armstrong, vice president for advertising at Universal, said. ''We'll be over $100 million by next Saturday.'' Paramount's ''Star Trek II - the Wrath of Khan'' is in third place, with nearly $58 million in 32 days. Universal's ''Conan the Barbarian,'' with $39 million, and M-G-M- U.A.'s ''Poltergeist,'' with $37.5 million, are essentially in a tie for fourth. A lot of things can happen down the backstretch, and those positions will not necessarily stay the same for the rest of the race. ''Conan,'' which opened in the middle of May, has taken in as much money as it is likely to make, and ''Poltergeist'' is still earning several million dollars a week. In the long run, what counts is what Hollywood calls ''legs'' - the ability to attract audiences week after week. Last July, Orion's ''Arthur'' opened weakly, but the movie began to build and was still playing successfully at Christmas. Columbia's ''Annie'' has seemed a disappointment because it cost $42 million and was the center of a barrage of articles predicting immediate and gigantic box-office success, which it did not have. But ''Annie'' has earned $25.5 million, its audience is not falling away, and it may well end up the summer in fourth or fifth place. Some of the losers are also obvious. ''The Thing,'' ''Grease II,'' ''Hanky Panky,'' ''Megaforce'' and ''Author! Author!'' are among them. ''The Sword and the Sorcerer'' is not. ''The Sword and the Sorcerer,'' a low-budget independent movie from Group 1 Films, has surprisingly earned nearly $28 million. Most of the movies for which the major studios had the highest hopes have already opened. If a studio expects a film to be a blockbuster, it will put it in theaters in June to give it as much summer playing time as possible. There are exceptions, and Disney's ''TRON'' is one. ''TRON,'' which takes place inside a computer and is, thus, the first movie to compete directly with the video games that have siphoned off much of Hollywood's teen-age audience, was simply not finished in time. ''TRON'' will open Friday. Universal's film version of ''The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas'' also was not finished in time to open in June; it will have its premiere July 16. Neither ''TRON'' nor ''The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas'' is a guaranteed success, of course - simply movies that Disney and Universal think have a chance of being blockbusters. ''When you make a commitment to release a film far far in advance, who knows what the tone of the marketplace is going to be?'' David Weitzner, executive vice president of advertising at Universal, asked. ''Who knew the audience would take a squishy little person from outer space to its heart?'' Universal is distributing ''E.T.'' and ''The Thing.'' Weitzner might have added, ''Who could have guessed the audience would recoil from the gruesome 'Thing' when it had been fascinated by the gruesome 'Alien'?'' And there is bound to be one unexpected major-studio success from among the July and August movies to match ''The Sword and the Sorcerer.'' Perhaps Randal Kleiser's ''Summer Lovers'' will equal his ''Blue Lagoon'' of two summers ago, or ''Young Doctors in Love,'' a spoof of soap operas starring soap-opera actors, will bring the immense soap-opera audience into theaters. ''But one thing is certain,'' Irv Ivers, vice president of marketing at 20th Century-Fox, said, ''there's a new wave of movies coming.'' ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jul 1982 0125-PDT From: Jim McGrath Subject: Movies and Video Games By ALJEAN HARMETZ c. 1982 N.Y. Times News Service HOLLYWOOD - Hollywood is cashing in on the video game boom. In 1981, game cartridges that can be plugged into home television sets and coin-operated arcade games were an $8 billion business, while audiences paid less than $3 billion at U.S. movie theater box offices. In the last few weeks, nearly every movie studio has announced a joint venture or new division meant to siphon off some of those impressive video game revenues. Each studio is aiming its laser guns and space ships down a different path, but all share at least one goal - replacing games titled ''Pac-Man,'' '' Defender,'' ''Berzerk'' and ''Frogger'' with games called ''Jaws,'' ''9 to 5,'' ''Star Wars'' and ''Star Trek.'' Currently, the home video games that sell best are home versions of successful arcade games. The studios believe that a presold movie title - like ''The Empire Strikes Back'' or ''King Kong'' - will be equally enticing to the consumer. All the studios will be starting a long way behind Warner Communications Inc., parent of the movie-producing Warner Bros. Inc. Revenues for Warner Communication's Atari, which has more than 75 percent of the home video game market, jumped from $238 million in 1979 to more than $1.2 billion in 1981. None of the other studios are planning to create hardware to compete with Mattel Inc.'s Intellivision or Atari's home video game. The failure of the RCA Corporation's videodisk system to appeal to large numbers of buyers has made movie studios cautious about leaping into new kinds of hardware. But most of them intend to do more than just license their movies to the new medium. In the simplest studio involvement, Lucasfilm has licensed ''Raiders of the Lost Ark'' to Atari for a chase-through-the-jungle home video game and licensed ''The Empire Strikes Back'' to Parker Brothers for a home video game based on the battle on the ice planet in that movie. Walt Disney Productions has gone one step beyond and orchestrated the licensing of ''TRON,'' a movie about a deadly battle inside a computer, so that the Bally arcade game will be available when the movie is released July 9. More than 800 machines have already been shipped, and promotional contests are being held in the Bally Manufacturing Corporation's Aladdin's Castle arcades, with national finals to be held in New York early in July to coincide with the release of the movie. The home versions of ''TRON'' - ''Maze-a-TRON'' and ''TRON Deadly DISCS'' - will be marketed by Mattel's Intellivision in the fall. The Paramount Pictures Corp. is moving considerably further into the video game business. Paramount, a division of Gulf and Western Industries, owns Sega, one of the leading manufacturers of arcade games. Sega was transferred from G.&W.'s manufacturing division to Paramount last December. Through Sega, Paramount is moving into the home video game business both as a producer and a distributor. Sega is the designer and distributor of the newest No. 1 arcade game, ''Zaxxon,'' a devilishly difficult, almost three- dimensional attack game. Paramount has spent $150,000 to create a 30-second commercial for ''Zaxxon,'' the first television commercial urging audiences into an arcade to play a game. There is a second, equally important reason for the commercial. Paramount intends to build Sega into a brand name - to make a star of Sega for the home video game market. ''We're lucky we have the No. 1 arcade game to lead our introduction,'' said Barry Diller, chairman of Paramount. ''It's just like the No. 1 movie. You don't have it for a long time but it's great to have at the particular moment you are entering a field.'' Home video game cartridges, which sell from $22 to $35, have traditionally been marketed through toy stores. The 20th Century-Fox Film Corp. will be relying primarily on mass merchandisers such as the K Mart Corp., while Paramount is currently setting up distribution in the record and video stores that sell cassettes of its movies. Since it takes a minimum of six months after licensing to create the programmable chip for a home game, the first ''Star Trek'' game will not be available until 1983. In order to enter the market immediately, Sega has formed a joint venture with Coleco Industries and will begin shipping the home version of the successful arcade game ''Donkey Kong'' early in July. And 20th Century-Fox is also preparing to ship home video games this summer. According to Joseph LaBonte, president of Fox, a unit, Fox Video Games, will ship four games in late July that are compatible only with Atari game units. Unlike Paramount, Fox does not own an electronic game manufacturer and will not manufacture arcade games, although it will license its movies to arcade manufacturers. Fox has formed a joint venture with Sirius, a large manufacturer of computer games. None of the first few games will be based on movies, but later offerings are now being developed from ''Megaforce,'' ''9 to 5'' and ''Porky's.'' Lucasfilm is entering the video game field in a somewhat different fashion. In a joint venture with Atari, Lucasfilm will be using its expertise in digital sound and computer graphics to create and program both arcade and home games, which Atari will then market. Everyone agrees that the home video game market will have explosive growth. Game machines are now hooked up to television sets in just eight million American homes, less than 10 percent of the total. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 18-Jul JPM@Mit-Ai #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #18 *** EOOH *** Date: Sunday, July 18, 1982 12:27AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #18 To: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 18 Jul 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 18 Today's Topics: SF Movies - Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, SF TV - Star Trek II: The Roots of Khan, Spoiler - Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sunday, July 18, 1982 12:27AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Subject: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The messages in this digest discuss some plot details in both the movie and the book Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. Some readers may not wish to read on. ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 16 Jul 1982 09:12-PDT From: obrien at RAND-UNIX Subject: Who was that doomed ship, anyway? My friend the SF reader, sometime fan, and all-round well-read fellow, had a problem with Star Trek II. The "Toborashi Maru", or whatever, rang his chimes. He swears he's heard that name before. At first he thought it was the ship in "Lord Jim", but no such luck. Does anyone out there read widely enough to remember where this ship has been seen before? We may have a Tuckerism here... ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 1982 17:55:43 EDT (Friday) From: Winston Edmond Subject: Spock's death The following, not surprising, item appeared in the Friday, July 9 issue of the Boston Globe. "Although Mr. Spock is killed off in the current block-buster movie, 'Star Trek II: the Wrath of Khan,' it's hard to keep a good Vulcan down, and so Spock, played by Leonard Nimoy, may miraculously be resurrected in the next Star Trek sequel. Gene Roddenberry, who created the original TV Star Trek, said Spock was killed in the current film because Nimoy was tired of the role, but fans 'put so much pressure on Paramount and Nimoy, Leonard has changed his mind' and has agreed to play Spock again." ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 1982 0152-PDT From: Friedland at SUMEX-AIM Subject: spock lives!? Channel 2 in the SF bay area just finished a two hour analysis/review of TWOK. They had many clips and interviews with all the principals. There seemed to be complete agreement that Spock was not really dead and would surface in the next movie. The clearest statement was by DeForest Kelley who said that Spock had had a mind meld with McCoy before entering the chamber and that that tied directly with the "remember" and the final line of McCoy about Spock not being dead while we remembered him, etc. So it would appear that the theories about Spocks mind living in McCoy for awhile are correct. Peter ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 1982 at 0301-PDT From: dan at SRI-TSC Reply-to: dan at SRI-TSC Subject: "Star Trek: The Roots of Khan" (partial Star Trek II SPOILER) Channel 2, a local San Francisco Bay Area station, put on a 2 hour special at midnight tonight about "Star Trek: The Roots of Khan". It was billed as a "Creature Feature Presentation", with the usual narrator for the midnight horror-flick "Creature Feature". It contained interviews with Nimoy, Montelban, DeForest Kelley, Shatner, and two guys from Industrial Light and Magic, as well as shots from both ST movies, and the entire "Space Seed" episode, uncut. It verified several ideas expressed in SF-Lovers about Spock's Re-birth, as well as a few new tidbits, which I will try to relate. Please forgive misspellings (especially names) and Ramble-mode-on -- it's past my bedtime. <> It was great to see Space Seed again. It was pretty much as I remembered it, except everyone looked so young in comparison to the movie clips they showed alongside it. One thing I noticed was that Khan and his people were not the products of genetic engineering, but rather of "selective breeding" (Spock mentioned this, and so did Kirk and Khan). Also, Khan was "absolute ruler of 1/4 your planet" (Spock) before they fled to find a new world to conquer. The interview with Montelban was interesting, but not too revealing. It was interesting that he felt the emotional scenes were the easiest to play. "Any actor with any talent can play those scenes". The hardest ones, according to him, were the expositive ones, like the ones he does on Fantasy Island. It's hard to say all those factual lines and not put your audience to sleep. Later on in the show, Shatner said "The hardest scenes were the ones with great emotion in them"... Guess I'm not the only one who thinks Shatner is a lousy actor! When DeForest Kelley was asked about Spock's death, he mentioned how Spock gave him the mind-meld just before going into the radiation chamber, and how at the funeral Bones said "He is not forgotten, as long as we remember him" (or whatever the exact quote is). Kelley stressed the relationship of those two lines, and their importance in bringing Spock back (but you heard it first in SF-Lovers!). Nimoy mentioned that he had been approached by Paramount to do the next movie. And he also reminded the idiot interviewer (who kept insisting "but Spock's dead. I SAW him die.") that Spock's body is lying on a planet formed by the Genesis Effect, which is still active and effecting changes on his body. When was asked if they might bring Spock back by having the next movie take place before his death, he commented "that's possible, but I'm not getting any younger". All in all, though nobody came out and said it, they were all trying VERY hard (and not at all subtly) to give the message that Spock will be back. (It almost seemed that they were worried nobody would figure that out by themselves, and everyone boycott the sequel). The interview with the two guys from Industrial Light and Magic was the most interesting (sorry I can't remember their names. It's late...). Two things I hadn't heard before: The scene of the Genesis Effect creating the planet from a Nebulae in the end was filmed in the Cow Palace in San Francisco, because they needed a big area to set off some pyrotechnics. The cameras were mounted in the middle of the arena pointed up toward the detonations, to get a "zero gee" effect. Also, the scene in the end, of Spock's coffin sitting among the bushes, was filmed in Golden Gate Park in San Francisco, because they were in a hurry and needed a lush spot that was nearby (the ILM studio is in San Raphael). According to the interviewer, George Takai refused to be in ST:TWOK unless they showed Sulu being more than just someone sitting on the bridge. So they filmed him in a few other scenes, developing his character more, then cut all of the scenes except the bridge ones, during editing! Nimoy mentioned that one of the reasons the special effects were so much better in TWOK was that in the first movie, they were way behind schedule, so had to rush the SFX. But in TWOK they had much more time. Hmm... One final note: without his makeup on, Bones (DeForest Kelley) looked OLD. MUCH older than everyone else. Hope they don't take too long before starting the next ST movie (what a terrible thing to say)... Good Night! Dan@sri-tsc (Dan Chernikoff) ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jul 82 0:27:39-EDT (Tue) From: Craig.umcp-cs at UDel-Relay Subject: Star Trek III ???? [Start Flame Mode] Are they really thinking of calling the movie "the search for Spock?" I'll be upset!!! Do you know how long I've been waiting to see that pointy-eared smart-ass get his? Doesn't like humans, does he? Thinks we're irrational creatures incapable of logical, rational action, does he? Well, I sure as hell wouldn't have volunteered to walk into a radiation area. Green-blooded snob! I'm glad he's dead. My only disappointment with the movie is that Chekhov lived. My favorite scene in the series was the "Empire" episode, where Chekhov was stuffed into the torture chamber. Maybe I don't like Russians or something, but I enjoyed that. How about this for the next movie: Star Trek III: The Death of Everyone. Kill 'em all off. Maybe Earth too. How about this: Chekhov is taking the Enterprise into Earth port after a long, boring mission. Kirk is making it with some random Yeoman, and Chekhov is still hung over from that bottle of 'Wodka' he polished off last night. Anyway, Chekhov is making a pass at Saavik, when the Enterprise 'sorta bumps into' Haley's comet. Well, the fenders are dented and all that, and they KNOW star fleet command just wouldn't understand, so they take the ship into a fly-by-night body shop on the dark side of the moon, get it patched up, and blame whatever they can't fix on the Klingons. Anyway, Haley's comet ends up crashing into the Earth. The entire crew is on shore leave, so they buy it. Except Kirk, who is still closeted with the Yeoman. At the end of the movie they have this scene of Kirk being hung by his ... toenails and flayed alive (just to satisfy the current demand for violence and gore). But the sentimental slobs will probably throw away this 'golden opportunity' to correct their past mistakes and continue to glorify some pointy eared half-breed who considers humans a poor second to a good, reliable, logical, pocket calculator. [End Flame Mode] ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 1982 at 1450-CDT From: ables at UTEXAS-11 (King Ables) Subject: re: V6 #7 Re: Dan Klein's question: why didn't Chekhov and Terrell beam up from inside immediately? In the book they explain this as there being too much interference from the atmosphere of the planet. Beaming from the outside was hard enough, from inside a metal building was impossible. (as I think someone pointed out earlier). It's too bad that so many things have to be (or just are) left out of a movie that go in the book, they usually make the story much more interesting and logical. Star Wars was this way, the book had a LOT of information that got left on the cutting room floor. I strongly suggest the book to both SW and STII. TESB was only slightly enlightening. I hope when SW comes to CBS next year(?) that they do with it what ABC did with Superman, add about an hour's worth of footage that wasn't in the original release! Re: Hal Chambers' point about Chekhov assuming his "regular post" upon return to the Enterprise. I assume he did that since he was familiar with the post and felt he could contribute. The book didn't really explain why it was so easy for him to be a part of the Enterprise crew again. It did explain his condition - not too healthy, but better than no help at all. In fact, he had to be helped to the turbo lift from Sick Bay. I guess this was just one of the ways the good guys pitch in to help one another. -ka ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 1982 1924-PDT From: Henry W. Miller Subject: Star Trek II -- TWOK These are some comments on recent entries concerning "The Wrath of Khan". First, in the novelization, it indicates that Chekov DID indeed attempt to contact the ship, but there was too much background static. Perhaps the static was natural, or perhaps in was produced by Khan himself to prevent the premature departure of a landing party. By the way, it was the Reliant that was orbiting Ceti Alpha V, NOT the Enterprise... Perhaps Kirk should have raised the shields, as he anticipated troubles at Regulus I. However, the Reliant was running with her shields down until the last moment, so I see no reason why Kirk should not leave his shields down likewise, to avoid expending the extra energy. As he berated himself later, "I did nothing but get caught with my britches down..." (Remember the episode "The Ultimate Computer"? After M-5 committed suicide, Kirk ordered the shields to remain down as an act of good faith. Perhaps that is one of those unwritten regs, that is the commander's discretion...) Why did the creature leave Chekov's brain? I have my own theory. I have seen the movie four times so far, but am still not sure about one thing, since the scene moves too fast. It looks like Tyrell, just before committing suicide, yanks some sort of wire out of his neck. Could that wire, (If I saw the scene correctly,) have been connected to the creature in his brain somehow? Remember, in the previous scene on the Reliant, it appears that Khan has some sort of electronic device wired into his bracelet. The control device, possibly? Let us assume that said control device was used on both Chekov and Tyrell. When Tyrell committed suicide, he was no longer really under the control of Khan, as he had yanked the control wire. But the shock, or feedback, plus Chekov's devotion and loyalty to Kirk could have made things very uncomfortable for the Ceti Eel, and it decided to vacate the premises for a better environment. (or, perhaps it matured early, and vacated Chekov's brain before death could occur...) That's my theory, anyway. Finally, about Chekov's status. It WAS explicitly stated that he was a member of the Reliant crew, as in the first scene in which we see him, he is filing the ship's log as First Officer... Why did no one blink an eye when Chekov re-appeared on the bridge? Remember, this was a training mission, with a bunch of green recruits. In the battle they were about to engage, an experienced, space hardened weapons officer would be much more desirable than a student who has only used a simulator. (Plus the fact that the Mutura Nebula rendered normal sensors useless. It might just need that old gut feel when aiming and firing...) Albeit, Chekov had just been through Hell, with the eel doing a fair amount of damage to the ear canal and possibly to the brain itself. However, it appears that Chekov's loyalty overrode his physical discomfort. -Henry Miller ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jul 1982 1943-PDT From: Henry W. Miller Subject: Star Trek II -- The Wrath of Khan I forgot to mention something in my previous message concerning The Wrath of Khan. Kirk ordered the console code for the Reliant to me punched up, in order to force her to drop her shields. Well and good. But, in the TV episode "The Ultimate Computer", the M5 takes on four other starships at the same time. Why didn't the M5 use this feature to disable the other ships? On the same notion, why didn't Commodore Wesley order the Enterprise to drop her shields? Perhaps this feature was installed much later, to prevent a similar M5 Fiasco. -HWM ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 19-Jul JPM@Mit-Ai #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #19 *** EOOH *** Date: Monday, July 19, 1982 4:44AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #19 To: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 19 Jul 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 19 Today's Topics: SF TV - HHGttG, SF Books - Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan & Software & Way-Farer & Kensho & Satori & Driftglass & Number of the Beast, SF Topics - Brain Use, Humor - Genderless Video Games ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16-Jul-82 15:37:48 PDT (Friday) From: Kluger at PARC-MAXC Reply-to: Larry Subject: HHGttG on San Francisco/Bay Area TV KCSM (Channel 60 in San Mateo) will be carrying Hitchhiker [etc] every Wednesday at 9pm starting this coming Wednesday, July 21. KQED (in San Francisco) currently doesn't plan to present the series before September. Larry ------------------------------ Date: 18 July 1982 1444-PDT (Sunday) From: mike at UCLA-Security (Michael Urban) Subject: Hitch Hiker's Guide The PBS station in LA (KCET) does not have HHGTtG on their schedule for summer. But Don't Panic: their program director says that they'll show it "some time this Fall". They'll have their Fall schedule laid out by mid-September. Mike ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jul 82 00:31:37 EDT (Fri) From: Steve Bellovin Subject: Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galaxy Does anyone know when the HhGttG TV show is playing in Washington, D.C.? Thanx, --Steve P.S. -- I saw the first episode tonight here in Chapel Hill. Highly recommended to all fans of the radio show -- and you'll recognize most of the dialog. But I was sorry they omitted the dedication of the bulldozer. ------------------------------ Date: Mon Jul 19 00:48:57 1982 From: decvax!watmath!bstempleton at Berkeley Subject: The Hitch-Hiker's Guide BBC-TV version I have now watched 2 episodes of the BBC-TV version of the guide. The general impression I have right now is that the second episode was not as good as the first by a fair bit. In my opinion they did not do enough work on converting it to TV from the radio format. One problem is that the radio actors, although they are fine actors, do not seem to be good actors on screen. Most notable is the fact that the new actor playing Ford Prefect shines much better than the others do. He is obviously used to TV, with all the visual things this implies such as posture, gestures and expression. You only get to see Zephod for a short time, but my impression was the Mark Wing-Davy should stick to radio as well. I'll have to see more of him later to see if this is the case. His lines were not very good in this episode. The second head is not very good either. It is obviously off to one side, obviously dead, and is only animate in very quick conversation sequences. After observing this, I would rather they had scrapped the heads, and had Zephod explain to Ford "well, you know man, infinite improbabilities and all that, ok?". That or he could have used the technique he used to pick up Trillian on Earth. Her acting is not very inspired either, although her lines are also a bad sample to draw from. Marvin the Paranoid Android is a big disappointment to me. He is done up as a basic feature "steel suit" man shaped robot. He speaks with the same well known voice, but just shuffles about aimlessly otherwise. I suspect that we will get quite bored of this visually unstriking android fairly soon. Since Marvin is an ANDROID, he could have been made up as a good human simulation. This is reasonably within willing suspension of disbelief, and allows much more latitude in making the character visually effective. He can have a little metal make up or clothing, of course, allowing a pain in all the diodes down his left side, for example. Still, any fan of the radio series or book should watch this series.' The disappointment for me is that they have not made enough use of the video medium they have been granted. You get few images from the TV that you would not have gotten from radio. Don't Panic! Brad ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jul 1982 15:02:28 EDT (Sunday) From: David Mankins Subject: book reviews ``Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan'' by Vonda McIntyre: I wouldn't have bought this book if it hadn't been written by Vonda McIntyre, even then I had my doubts; but the book reads like the good S.F. book they made a mediocre S.F. movie out of. I found the ending (in which a major, popular S.T. character dies) far more moving than in the movie. The book has better character development (particularly of Saavik, Cadet Peter Preston, and what's his name, Kirk's son), and patches most of the serious holes in the movie: why Saavik is more prone to emotion than Spock, why Spock had to venture, unprotected into the radioactive engine-room, what Scotty was doing carrying a mangled corpse around the bridge (he doesn't--Kirk meets him as he is waiting for the elevator to take the kid to sick bay). The book also has a sub-plot taking place on the research station, which computer hackers should enjoy immensely. ``Software'' by Rudy Rucker: This book has an openning excerpt appearing in Dan Dennett and Douglas Hofstadter's book, ``The Mind's I'' (which I also highly recommend). It is all about personal identity in the age of intelligent computers, anarchy, utopias, computer-mystics, kinky robot sex, and so on. There're lots of puns in the book (enough that I wonder how many I missed...) indicating that Rucker's intelligent computers will have a sense of humor. A good read, although I'll bet you'll get a headache after reading about ``The little kidders''. ``Way-Farer'', ``Kensho'', and ``Satori'', by Dennis Schmidt: Here are three books that demonstrate the beauty of science fiction: the author invents a world in which Zen Buddhism is necessary for survival (I owe this description to a friend). I read the stories that formed the basis for the first book several years ago when they appeared (in ``Galaxy'', I think), and was pleased when they appeared in book form. The series form a loosely coupled trilogy (each volume takes place several hundred years after the preceding one) with obvious hooks for a continuation. They all three describe a world colonized by the Earth, which at first blush appears perfect. Admiral Nakamura, leader of the colonization mission, names the planet ``Kensho'', for one of the stages of enlightenment (Nakamura is a Zen master). The colony ship sets down, and the colonists are busy breaking the earth with their plows and roto-tillers when Kensho's hidden menace reveals itself: a mind-parasite that feeds off the emotions of its victim, urging the victim on into madness. Most of the colony dies in the first encounter with the parasite (named ``mushin'', a type of demon, by Nakamura, after he realizes what happened-- not an easy task, since the survivors have little idea why they were suddenly struck with madness). Nakamura notes that the survivors all had a common trait--that they all had had extensive training in those religions that stress mental control. This is the key to understanding the parasite, and through understanding, to learn to control it. All this happens in the first few pages of the first book, as a means of explaining why this culture has been so shaped by Zen teachings. The first book, ``Way-Farer,'' concerns the seekings of a young man, as he seeks to rid himself of his own inner demons (distinct from the mushin, which people have learned to control). A neat adventure story in a neat world. [One that George Lucas should have read before making ``The Empire strikes back''--you get a much better picture of the kind of training Luke Skywalker had to go through at the hands of Yoda, one that is much less magical and mystical.] ``Kensho'', the second book is, well, more of the same, some two hundred years later. The training academies have grown corrupt, and distrusted by the country-folk. It is time for reform. What a shape reform takes. The third novel, ``Satori'', takes place after another couple of hundred years. Earth has undergone a religious transformation, and crusaders are going out to the old colonies, to convert them to the Way. This is the worst of the three novels. The bad guys have nothing to redeem them (this is, really, the first book with bad guys, rather than a Quest), and seem a little wooden. The religion is Inquisition Christianity in a new guise, but pretty realistic-seeming, and Kensho has grown a bit too utopian. Or, at least it seems that way in the first few pages. It picks up after a while (Schmidt invents an interesting character with three minds--a human being programmed as a spy, his original personality that remains in a shattered form after his "brain wiping", and an overlay personality, snarfed from a captured Kenshoan (Kenshian? Kensho-ite?) sent down to Kensho by the Earth expeditionary force. Once this spy is introduced, the wooden villains become a little easier to take, because you see less of them. Anyway, for those of you who couldn't get enough of Yoda in ``The Empire Strikes back'', and who watched ``Kung Fu'' only for the flash-backs to his life in the monastery, these are some fine books. ``Driftglass'' by Samuel Delaney: I found this at a local bookstore that handles British imports, though I have been told by several friends that it is (or once was) available in an American edition. Good stuff! This is an anthology of several of Delaney's short stories (some of which also appeared in the trade paperback, ``Distant Stars''). It includes ``We, in some strange power's employ, move on a rigorous line'', in which section-devils for the Global Power Commission meet, and defeat, Hell's Angels on flying motorcycles in their mountain-top aerie. It is full of the colorful underworld characters one expects to encounter in a story by Delany. Also appearing in this book are: ``Time considered as a helix of semi- precious stones'', a story fully as intriguing as its title. This collection of stories is a real treat for Delaney fans, and is far more accessible than his novels (such as ``Dhalgren'', or the unassailable ``Triton''). ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 82 15:57:44 EDT (Thu) From: Steve Bellovin Subject: radio commercials, "Number of the Beast" I've heard ads for at least one of the Dune books, and also (I think) for one of the Niven/Pournelle collaborations -- probably "Lucifer's Hammer". Some of the paperback publishers will treat some SF works the same way they treat their latest adventure novel, and assume that they will appeal to the same audience. Speaking of audience appeal -- I can't figure out what audience "Number of the Beast" appeals to; it was pretty awful. The plot eventually turns out to be a non-plot, though I won't bother going into details. (And I think I missed the joke at the end, which was apparently the whole point of the book.) Heinlein's handling of sex gets downright boring -- as a review of "Friday" in last Sunday's NY Times put it, some readers will skip the sex to get to the good parts. (Incidentally, I commend that review to all readers interested in Heinlein.) The only bright note was that Heinlein's characterizations are improving somewhat. I mean, the heroes *really* dislike each other (with good cause) for much of the book; they actually work out their interpersonal problems. And Heinlein is finally starting (I repeat, *starting*) to understand what feminism is all about. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jul 1982 20:28:56-PDT From: npois!npoiv!harpo!decvax!duke!mcnc!idis!mi-cec!dvk at Berkeley Subject: Brian Use Since I can't get to the ARPAnet from here, this is a response to the survey on neuropsychological phenomena. "People use their brains very inefficiently. (i.e. only 10%, or whatever)" The theory of holographic memory, of which I am a believer and am attempting to write a paper on, states that memory is stored holographically in the brain. This, too is a neuropsychological phenomenon that is damn near impossible to verify. However, one supporting piece of evidence (there are many) is the results of a set of experiments done in the 1920's (and later, in the 1950's). [from my paper] "Experimentally, it has been shown that the removal of large amounts of brain tissue has little or no effect on the memory of animals and man. Lashley (in the 1920's), and Gerard (1953), showed that large cuts in a rats brain had no effect on its retention of the pattern of a maze it had been presurgically trained to run. Removal of 90% of the visual cortex had a similar lack of effect. Galambos showed that a cat's memory still functioned after the removal of 98% of its optic tract. Similar evidence in human beings following destructive lesions, damage to the brain following minor strokes, or surgical removal of tumerous brain tissue indicate that removal or destruction of sections of the brain do not impair memory, unless this destruction is massive. In light of these experimental evidences, it would seem unlikely that individual memories are stored in their own niches in the brain". Enough proselitizing. The experiments indicated that 90% (or whatever) of a beings brain could be hacked out without much effect. Thus, I believe, people got the misinformation that the 90% that was removed was never used, and that only 10% was used. Back to the sermon: A hologram may be reduced in size by "surgury". The smaller it becomes, the less resolution of the original image is retained, *but*, each piece retains all the information of the original. It just becomes "fuzzy". So if you cut out a piece of a brain, the memory remains intact, but it loses some details. (Likewise, when you grow old and your brain dies sufficiently to make your hologram "fuzzy", your memories become "fuzzy" too. Hope this helps. -Dan Klein MI-CEC 4616 Henry St. Pittsburgh, Pa. 15213 (412) 578-3382 ...!decvax!idis!mi-cec!dvk ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jul 1982 16:42:00-PDT From: ihuxi!otto at Berkeley Subject: Brain Use I think there are several ways to answer the question "How much of our brain do we use at any given time?" One way would be to measure the oxygen uptake of the brain. It is know that oxygen is very important to the brain; it uses something like 20% of the oxygen we breathe. It is also known that neurons have a maximum firing rate on the order of 400 times per second, and I am sure someone has worked out the oxygen demands of a neuron firing at that rate, as well as one "at rest," (i.e., with the sodium pump and other metabolic processes active, but without any action potentials). Therefore, the matter becomes one simply of determining (or approximating) the number of neurons in the brain and calculating the oxygen demands of a brain "at rest" and one operating at maximum, followed by an actual measurement of the oxygen needs of brains in various situations. The oxygen uptake level would then reflect the level of brain activity between the "at rest" and "fully firing" levels. Please note that this analysis does not depend on an exact understanding of how thought works, something we have only limited understanding of, at best. It *does* rely on an understanding of how the building blocks of thought, the neurons, function. George Otto ihuxi!otto@UCB-C70 ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jul 82 14:06:32-EDT (Mon) From: Rehmi.umcp-cs at UDel-Relay Subject: Stop me if you've heard this, but..... Here's to Jack Brennan, the first 'Pak-man'! -Rehmi- ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 20-Jul JPM@Mit-Ai #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #20 *** EOOH *** Date: Tuesday, July 20, 1982 10:24PM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #20 To: SF-LOVERS at Mit-Ai SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 20 Jul 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 20 Today's Topics: Administrivia - Overload, SF Books - True Names Query & Best SF of the Year #11 & Harper Hall Trilogy & Alchemy and Academe & A Scanner Darkly & A Maze of Death & The Hollow Lands & JEM & Dream Park & Operation Chaos & The Word for World is Forrest & Dreamsnake & Bestsellers, SF TV - HHGttG & Star Trek, Random Topics - Space Week, Humor - Genderless Video Games ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tuesday, July 20, 1982 10:24PM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS-REQUEST at MIT-AI Subject: Overload Currently there is enough material that has already ben submitted to the digest, but not distributed, to make up 6 issues. This means that the average turnaround for any given message is about 6 days. Some messages (short ones on "hot" or current topics) have a shorter turnaround; others (long and introducing new topics) have a longer one. Thus please be patient if you do not see your submission in print for a few days after sending it in. Happy reading. Jim ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 1982 1709-PDT From: Mike Leavitt Subject: True Names I may be the only one on this list not to have read \True Names/ because I could never find it. Does anyone know whether it has been anthologized anywhere? Many thanks. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jul 82 9:32-PDT From: mclure at SRI-UNIX Subject: some good summer reading As always at the start of July, I go hunting for my favorite annual short SF fiction collection, Terry Carr's BEST SF OF THE YEAR #nn. This year it's up to volume 11 and reliably seems to have a higher caliber of stories than the Universe, New Dimensions, and Don Wollheim yearly collections. Stories in this year's collection that I thought particularly good are "The Pusher" by John Varley, "Walden Three" by Michael Swanwick, "Emergence" by David R. Palmer, "The Thermals of August" by Ed Bryant, "Going Under" by Jack Dann, and "Swarmer, Skimmer" by Gregory Benford. There are 17 stories, about 428pp, for $3.95 (I got it for $2.95 at a SF convention). Mostly good reading. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jul 1982 0431-PDT From: William "Chops" Westfield Subject: Book reviews I've been reading quite a lot recently. Here are some book reviews: 1) Anne McCaffrey a) Dragon Riders of Pern - Harper hall trilogy (DragonSinger, DragonSong, and DragonDrums) These are quite enjoyable juvenile novels. The first two (following Menolley, Pern's only female harper) are better than the last (which is mostly about what Piemur does after his voice changes). Menolley is a much more vivid character - you can almost hear her singing. Humorous and fun too. Strongly recommended for light reading. b) Alchemy and Academe: This is a collection of short stories in the A&A genre, whatever that is. To me, it seems that it must be the Theatre of the absurd of SF. I only read about half the stories in the collection, and most of them didn't seem to make any sense. The ones that did make sense, I didn't particularly like. Oh well. 2) P.K Dick What with his death and immediately following praise for his work, I decided to give him another try (I read "The Zap Gun" several years ago, and found it only confusing and boring....). Having read another two books (and some short stories) I have decided that what I don't like about Dick is his characters. They seem to all be anti-heros. All his characters I have read are basically people that you would not want to meet under the best of circumstances, and the circumstances are never that good... (The characters are especially REAL, and Dick's imagery is also very beautiful and/or disturbing. It's not that he can't write, I just don't like it...) a) A Scanner Darkly Inside view of a futuristic drug culture from one who presumably has first hand experience. An undercover narc is assigned to observe himself, resulting in increasing pressure, abuse of the deadly "substance D", and schizophrenia due to the destruction of brain tissue. Ends with an author's note saying "This has been a novel about some people who were punished entirely too much for what they did..." followed by a list of people, whom he knew, now dead or permanently damaged.... "Let them all play again, in some other way, and let them be happy." Make sure you're in a good mood when you read this. Ugh. b) A Maze of Death This seems to be a little better so far (i'm about half done). A bunch of losers (of various kinds) are reassigned to a colony on a planet. They arive in one way ships and are not told what they are supposed to be doing. The planet is interesting in that about half the "life" on it is in actuality mechanical. Anyway, after everyone arrives, something (one?) starts killing them off. At the point i'm at, their theory is that they are subjects of some sort of stress research by unfriendly persons. The book has as a major point a religion where praying actually works, especially if you use a big radio and one of the more advanced interstellar races happens to hear and take notice... 3) Others a) "The Hollow Lands", by Michael Moorcock Book 2 of the "dancers at the end of time" trilogy. A playfully silly set of novels about a hedonistic utopia has used ancient (to them) technology to abolish death, natural forces, etc. Green sunsets and edible buildings will give you the idea. The only remaining problem is boredom. Jehrick, who was actually naturally conceived (another experiment) decides in book 1 ("An Alien Heat") to try the ancient custom of falling in love, and enlists a women from victorian england (snarfed by a time machine) to help. All sorts of interesting fireworks result, of course. "The Hollow Lands" follows Jehrick as he tries to find another time machine so he can go back looking for his lost love (she got sent back, you see..). Very twisted, irreverant, and hilarious. b) "JEM" by Frederik Pohl Competing factions on earth extend their battle into space when a planet that might be colonizable is found. Each of the three major factions (food, people, and oil producers) teams up with a different sentient alien race (the planet just happens to have 3). This book just wasn't believable. The characters are all fanatics. The alien races never cooperate with each other. And I don't believe it would be possible for a small colony to maintain a technological culture without help from home. "Darkover landfall" (non-technical) or "total eclipse" (by Brunner) (death) are both more likely. The latter handles the major idea of the story better too... c) "Dream Park" by Niven and Barnes Using easily extrapolated technology, DND type games gain reality through the use of holograms, actors, and computers. The rich, and other play an occasional such game at fabulous Dream Park, which uses similar technology to create tomorrows Disneyland. During one such game (timewise), however, a dream park security guard is killed, resulting in this combination high tech, DND, detective story. A lot of fun, but I found the characters rather cardboard, with no apparent motives behind their actions. Also you could tell who in the DND game would be "killed" by the depth of the description given of them. No one you care about gets killed until the very end... Otherwise quite enjoyable. d) "Operation Chaos" by Poul Anderson Another fun book. An alternate universe where magic works. Follow the adventures of a werewolf and his wife the witch. Written along the lines of Heinlein's "magic inc" - attempts to handle the magic as a consistent science (I can't rate how it succeeds at this, I don't know enough about classic magic) with humor and parallel jokes throughout (like the polaroid flash that provide the proper illumination for were-animals to transform themselves even when the moon isn't full...). Good stuff. e) "The Word for World is Forrest" by LeGuin Now here is a REALLY good book. Humans are harvesting trees from the world of the Athsheans, seriously disrupting the ecology of the planet and treating the natives as sub-intelligent slave. The are in fact more intelligent than they seem, having highly developed powers of dreaming and an almost innate feel for ecology. Though normally non-violent, The Athsheans eventually become angry... LeGuin is an absolute wizard at creating alien ecologies, psychologies, and sociologies. This book is no exception. Very strongly recommended. f) "Dreamsnake" by Vonda McIntyre I also thought this was good. In the distant future, Genetic engineering has progressed to the point where snakes are bred so that under the proper conditions, they will produce medicines and vacines and such instead of poisons. So your average country doctor travels around (the world is recovering from a nuclear war, and there are few doctors) with a cobra, a rattler, and an alien "dreamsnake" (it produces euphorics). What "hard" technology remains is in domed cities, and they don't share it. The main character "Snake" loses her dreamsnake (it gets killed) and goes off in search of another (dreamsnakes are very rare - being alien, they are very hard to clone, and the healers haven't been able to get them to breed. The cities, which are the only off world contacts, refuse to have anything to do with the healers). Although things get stretched a little here and there, the whole novel holds together well, and reads well. Fascinating ideas sprinkled throughout... That's all for now. Bill Westfield ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jul 1982 14:27:12-EDT From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX Subject: Sf best-sellers TWICE SHY sounds like about as marginal SF as you can get---sort of THE MAN WHOSE NAME WOULDN'T FIT without the magic virus. Does anything with computers in it qualify, in view of their current prevalence? (I suppose you could argue Campbell's dictum (he was looking for stories that would be in SATURDAY EVENING POST in 2000+) but in view of his other statements that's an unsupported remark.) ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jul 1982 1516-EDT From: Bob Krovetz Subject: HHGttG in Washington D.C. The program manager for the PBS station in Washington says the Hitchhikers Guide will be aired sometime in the Fall. -bob ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jul 1982 1927-PDT From: Mike Leavitt Subject: Hgttg in DC I called WETA, the main PBS station in DC. They say that we will have it in October. Sigh. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jul 1982 at 0921-PDT From: dan at SRI-TSC Subject: Re: STAR TREK character aging (non-spoiler) Unfortunately they didn't interview "Scotty" -- he's always been my favorite ST character -- but I agree time has spread him out a bit. But "Bones" was liver-spot city, with lots of wrinkles, grey hair, and an even thinner and more leathery voice. Not that I'm prejudiced against old-folks, I just didn't realize he has THAT old... I'm tempted to say he's in his 70's. -Dan ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jul 1982 1850-PDT From: Henry W. Miller Subject: Trek Trivia Just a few pieces of obscure Trek Trivia I thought you might be interested in. Can you name two actors that guest starred in Trek episodes who were regulars on Battlestar Galatica/Galatica 1980? How many actors/actresses can you name who guest starred in more than one Trek episode. (Note: do not include Roger C. Carmel as Harry Mudd: I am referring to different characters.) Who was a semi-regular crew member in Star Trek who returned in "The Wrath of Kahn"? (Hint: he was a member of the Reliant's crew.) The answers, if you don't figure them out, will appear in a few days. -HWM ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jul 1982 0923-PDT From: Craig E. Ward Subject: Space Week For those interested in the space program: The California Museum of Science and Industry and the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics are sponsoring Space Week July 17 - 25 to commemorate the anniversaries of the first landing on the moon by Apollo 11 and the Viking I landing on Mars. Activities include: July 17-25 Museum Theaters--NASA Space films will be screened daily 12-4 pm. The film "The Making of Star Wars" will also be shown. July 19 7:00pm OMNI Magazine will present "Careers in Space--Your Guide to the Future". This multi-media program will be hosted by NASA consultant Stan Kent. July 20 Anniversary Day luncheon featuring Dr. Hans Mark, NASA Deputy Director, and former astronaut Pete Conrad. Call 670-6642 for more information. July 17 Children's Space Program at the Kidspace Museum, 390 S. El Molino, Pasadena, 449-9143 July 24 & 25 The museum will have special space and aircraft displays, Moon Models, space pictures and movies. Live recreation of the Apollo moon walks will take place throughout the day with astronauts in space suits, a replica of the Lunar Lander and a simulated moonscape. All events except the luncheon are free. For more information call (213) 744-7438. ------------------------------ Date: 14-Jul-82 10:42-PDT From: JWAGNER at OFFICE Subject: Genderless video games PacAnimal? Pac-a-Derm? Pac-i-stan? I don't know ... sounds to me like you've been hitting a six-Pac. -- Jim Wagner ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 23-Jul cGrath #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #21 *** EOOH *** Date: Friday, July 23, 1982 6:02AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #21 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 21 Jul 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 21 Today's Topics: Administrivia - Transmission Procedures, SF Books - The Restaurant at the End of the Universe, SF Movies - Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan & The Thing & Blade Runner, Random Topics - Violence in Movies, Spoiler - Blade Runner ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Friday, July 23, 1982 6:02AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS-REQUEST at MIT-AI Subject: Transmission Procedures One of the machines in the transmission path of the digest went down for an extensive period of time the middle of this week. This resulted in the queuing of the Tuesday digest, issue 20, for an excessive period of time, and thus late delivery. All subsequent issues were yanked until this problem was resolved, and thus the digests will be slightly out of sinq for a bit. We have now changed our transmission path and procedures. We are now transmitting from SRI-CSL. We may encounter some slight transmission difficulties until things get up to steam, so please bear with us. The mailbox for submissions to the digest remains SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI, and that for administrative requests SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@MIT-Ai. Happy reading, Jim ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jul 1982 at 1034-CDT From: ables at UTEXAS-11 (King Ables) Subject: ramblings RE: Someone's complaint that STII was just like another episode: That's *exactly* why it's so good! That's why the first one was a flop. I liked the first one, but it's because I'm such a die-hard Trekkie (I hate that name but at least people know what I'm talking about when I use it). I can see why the first one didn't go over well. The second one returns to the atmosphere of the show. Kirk is in top form. The conflict/friendship between Kirk, Spock, and McCoy is at its best. RE: Steve Gutfreund's comments about Bladerunner finally bringing SF to the silver screen: I though Bladerunner was good, not great, but good. The effects were stunning. The story was slow in places, but over all very interesting. It made me think. I agree this is "real" SF which makes it unique in the light of SW, ST, etc. I like science fiction a lot but am not as obsessed by general SF as I am by ST, SW, and a few others. I am not "into" SF as much as I'm sure many of you are. Those that are will love Bladerunner. Those that just like the flashy, easy to under- stand stories, may not like it as much. My little sister, who has of late become a SW/Harrison Ford freak, went to Bladerunner sure she would love it. She came back unsure of what even went on (she's not a Sci-Fi person). I think this made her realize that SF is more than just SW and TREK! It was really rather humorous. Finally read the second Hitchhiker's book "The Restaurant at the End of the Universe." Didn't seem as continually funny as the first one, but still a good book. The last few chapters made it worth it. Looking forward to the third and final part "Life, the Universe, and Everything." Sorry for blabbering to excess. King ------------------------------ Date: 30-Jun-82 10:28AM-EDT (Wed) From: David Miller Subject: The Thing and Bladerunner Yesterday I saw both "The Thing" and "Bladerunner" with only a six hour break between the films. They are slightly different versions of the same basic idea, and therefore their reviews are somewhat merged. pico review: (Thing) Worth the price of a matinee ticket. (BR) Well done, worth full price at least once. micro review: (Thing) A must see for John Carpenter fans, horror fans, and John W Cambell fans. A reasonably accurate version of "Who Goes There" with some creative goo and gore added, mostly in good taste. (BR) Visually incredible! the score by Vangelis is superb. Harrison Ford is typical Ford, and very good for his role. Done in the style of the old detective films --with narration (a style I've not seen (with the exception of "Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid") for many years. macro review: Both these films deal with enemies in human form, and one man's story of how he hunts them down. In both films, who is human and who is not gets sufficiently confused to cause the hero to go through considerable mental anguish. The difference in the films is that in the "Thing" the enemy is EVIL and must be destroyed, in "Bladerunner" there is no reason to destroy the enemy except that that is the hero's job, and like many Vietnam Vet, he starts to question on whether or not it is the right thing to do. "The Thing" is pure entertainment, the only message in the movie is not to let strange dogs bite you. "Bladerunner" has got more to it, without the plot it is an interesting study of a possible future Earth, inhabited by the poor and unskilled who could not make it to one of the off world colonies. It also shows the wisdom of Asimov's three laws, and how even with them a severe moral question still remains. The main problem with "Bladerunner" is the lack of development of Ford with the female lead. The relationship between the two is not sufficiently developed to add anything to the plot, in fact you will probably forget she exists during the last half of the movie. The lack of a believable relationship makes the very end of the movie quite corny, and almost spoils the mood that was carefully built up for the first two hours. "The Thing" has no weaknesses. It is exactly what it says it is a SF action horror film in the style of "Alien", though I feel better done, and with fewer logical flaws. Both films are worth seeing, though a certain fascination with the grotesque will greatly aid your appreciation of "The Thing." Dave (miller@yale) ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 1982 13:21 CDT From: Johnston.DLOS at PARC-MAXC Subject: Blade Runner -- SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #8 I am amazed at the number of people who seem to feel that SF should present us with potential problems to be solved before the physical reality is here. I saw Blade Runner and thought it stank, even before reading any reviews. Science Fiction has always been a form of ENTERTAINMENT for me, not food for thought. If I want to think deep thoughts about miserable conditions, I'll read Solzhienitzen (sp?). That's all he writes. This is the same reason I got tired of Heinlein. All his books espouse his philosophy. I feel there are better settings for that than SF. Blade Runner was just depressing. We are provided with accelerated technology which has only brought the Earth to ruin. The ecology is totally destroyed, no buildings in the entire city are maintained (except the headquarters of the big corporation which caused the problem in the first place), and it's never even light. I find nothing entertaining in this. But then, some people found "Looking for Mr. Goodbar" entertaining. No arguing taste, right? Rick ------------------------------ Date: 12-Jul-82 10:37AM-EDT (Mon) From: David Miller Subject: Bladerunner and violence in movies It disturbs me somewhat to see all the official horror at the "violence" in movies such as BLADERUNNER. Those critics that complained about such graphic scenes as fingers being snapped and heads being crushed should go see the film again. There are NO such scenes in the movie. It is all left up to the viewers imagination, aided by some good sound effects, and some leading glimpses. Oh the tone of BLADERUNNER is very violent, but I thought that was the idea of the film: whether or not a being deserved the common courtesy of humanity, or whether they should be treated like a toy to be broken and thrown away just because they are not quite natural. The uproar over this film reminds me quite a bit of that which came over the film ROLLERBALL, another film that seems very violent, but which really just manipulates the viewers imagination extremely well. I thought the link of violence in film to that of real life was when it was glorified and made to look not at all unpleasant -- as in the police movies of a few years ago. In BLADERUNNER and ROLLERBALL violence was made to look painful, sick, and not at all pleasant both for the person the act was upon, and the person doing the act. I suspect bladerunner will not inspire anyone to run out in the street and start shooting replicants, it made the whole thing look quite unpleasant. Dave (miller@yale) ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jul 1982 2224-EDT From: Joseph A. Frisbie Subject: Bladerunner My first impression of bladerunner was that it was bit too violent. Real life does indeed include violence, but should we derive entertainment from it? I don't object to having violence as part of a movie, but I do object to it being highlighted. Bladerunner is one of the few SF movies that addresses a social question, and will undoubtedly be talked about for a while. I felt however, that there were a few fundamental problems with the premise. If the citizens felt replicants were enough of a problem to outlaw them on earth, and set special task forces to handle it, (expensive and LA didn't seem to be prospering) why didn't they just outlaw the human form for robots? Also, if they were outlawed on earth, why were they designed there? Earth is ambiguous also, if only the dregs of humanity are left, why would the replicants head out there? and even if they did, who would care? And if the replicants are dangerous, why not ban them from where the elite live. I would hesitate to call it the Maltese Falcon of SF because Drekard only found one replicant by detective work (snake dancer), although it was apparent they were trying for a Sam Spade character. Overall, it was fast moving, and entertaining, and I would recommend seeing it at least once, anyway. Joe ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jul 1982 08:22:48-PDT From: CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley Subject: Blade Runner The latest issue of American Cinematographer includes two pieces on the making of Blade Runner, one focussing on the futuristic design of the film and the other on the optical effects. Both make very interesting reading. Of particular interest is the end of the effects piece. Somebody from Trumbull's team (Richard Yuricich?) says that they showed a goodly amount of the effects footage one day to PKDick before he died. How did he react? He was apparently blown away. He said they had uncannily captured exactly what was in his head when he wrote the book (to be taken with a grain of salt, of course, since this is not subject to verification). Steve ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 15 Jul 1982 08:54-PDT Subject: Blade Runner anachronism (non-spoiler) From: jim at RAND-UNIX Deckard has an obvious smallpox vaccination mark. ------------------------------ Date: Friday, July 23, 1982 6:02AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Subject: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The last message in this digest discusses some plot details in the movie Blade Runner. Some readers may not wish to read on. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jul 82 17:08-PDT From: mclure at SRI-UNIX Subject: Bladerunner and The Bradbury SPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILER SPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILER SPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILER SPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILER SPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILER SPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILER SPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILER SPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILER SPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILER SPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILER SPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILER Did anyone notice that the hotel in Bladerunner where Ford nails some replicants is the same one in which the Outer Limits episode 'Demon With a Glass Hand' (by Harlan Ellison) was also filmed where Trent (Bob Culp) battles with the aliens? It's called the Bradbury and is actually located in Los Angeles as in the movie. I wonder if Ridley Scott saw the Outer Limits episode. Another micro-review of Bladerunner: great production values and effects by Trumbull, awful dialogue and meager acting; however, it is a refreshing change from the syrupy universes in the Spielberg/Lucas movies. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 27-Jul cGrath #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #22 *** EOOH *** Date: Tuesday, July 27, 1982 2:19AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #22 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 22 Jul 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 22 Today's Topics: SF Books - Little,Big & The Best of Randall Garrett & Lensman Series & Dennis Schmidt & Babel 17 & "The Digital Dictator", SF Movies - Das Boot & Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, SF TV - HHGttG, SF Topics - Brain Use, Humor - Genderless Video Games ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22-Jul-82 1:23PM-EDT (Thu) From: Steven Salzberg Reply-to:Salzberg@Yale Subject: Little, Big I just looked at Crowley's "Little, Big" in a bookstore, after seeing it on this bboard recently. I didn't buy it because I could tell in my brief perusal what sort of story it was. Could anyone out there enlighten me, provide a few plot details, recommendations, etc.? Also, I'd be interested in the titles of good fantasy (a la Tolkien) where writing style and plot create absorbing reading -- too many books I find have one or the other, and I've been reading non-fiction for so long that I'm out of touch with who the good writers are now. Thanks. --Steven ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jul 1982 05:39:16-PDT From: decvax!duke!uok!uokvax!mwm at Berkeley Subject: The Best of Randall Garrett. I just finished reading this truly marvelous book. I advise everyone to go out and buy this book to read and enjoy and read and enjoy and ... For those of you not familiar with his work, Garrett published a lot of stuff in ASF during the 50's and 60's. This work tends to be entertaining. There were a couple of stories whose plot I remembered after 15+ years, even though I didn't remember the author/title/ magazine related to them. Among other things, Garrett demonstrates how far you can mislead someone by giving them the truth and nothing but the truth. Over the last decade, Garrett has been turning out Lord Darcy stories. Darcy is a detective in an alternate time stream, where Richard the Lionhearted didn't die young, and John Lackland (Black John) was never a king of England. And somebody published a book that laid out the mathematical laws of magic. Given a working magic, science doesn't stand a chance. The result is some interesting whodunits from Garrett. Not hard science fiction, but just as good. (Hard magic fiction?) Then there are the reviews. Garrett reviews (in verse, no less!) Bester's `The Demolished Man,' Asimov's `The Caves of Steel' and Anderson's `Three Hearts and Three Lions.' There's also an hilarious parody of the Foundation stories. Finally, for those who like personal comments from the writers, there are comments on Garrett by various authors strung between the stories. All good stuff. Share and Enjoy! mike ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jul 1982 1927-PDT From: Henry W. Miller Subject: Book review: The Lensman series Berkley Books has just come out with a re-release of the famous Lensman series, by Edward E. "Doc" Smith. These books have been out of print for five years, and with some luck, you might have been able to scrape together all six books by visiting many book stores. And, surprise of surprises, this re-issue has brand new cover illustrations, brilliantly done by David Mattingly. For once, the covers actually match the stories. These books are good old fashioned space opera, complete with blaster fire, damsels in distress and epic space battles. (Pure Star Wars genre.) To give you a brief idea of the story line, two galaxies passed through each other a few billion years ago. Two races of beings, each immensely old discover each other. The bad guys are concerned with universal domination, while the good guys are only concerned with the advancement of civilization. The good guys, the Arisians, discover that the bad guys, the Eddorians, can only be destroyed by intense mental force. Therefore, the Arisians set forth to develop in other, lower beings minds of sufficient power to perform the task. The six books of the series are, "Triplanetary", "Galatic Patrol", "First Lensman", "Gray Lensman", "Second Stage Lensman", and "The Children of the Lens". Smith wrote another book which is a spinoff of the series called "The Vortex Blasters", and later renamed to be "The Masters of the Vortex". This book has not been re-issued at this time. After Smith's death in 1965, a close friend of his, David A. Kyle, used Smith's notes, and penned "The Dragon Lensman", a book about the adventures of Worsel, one of the main characters of the series. This book has not been re-issued yet, but is still in print. There are rumors that Smith intended to write two more books about particular Lensmen mentioned in the series, but nothing has materialized yet. Rumor also had it that Smith was going to write additional Lensman books as sequels to the "Children of the Lens", but as yet, no one has gathered his notes. If you love good old fashioned SF adventure, whether you're young or old, I highly reccomend the Lensman series. Cost is $ 2.50 per book. -Henry ------------------------------ Date: 26 July 1982 01:21-EDT (Monday) From: Robert A. Carter Subject: Review of Das Boot ("The Boat") The German film Das Boot ("The Boat") takes place during World War II. However, the plotline is so intimately concerned with the effects of an enclosed micro-environment that it might as well take place in orbit, or in deep space, thus should interest many who follow science-fiction movies. Pico-review: Best submarine movie ever. Mini-review: This movie tells the story of one short patrol by a German U-Boat in l941. The plot concerns the crew's conflict with the British, their inhospitable environment, and their own fear, in ascending order of importance. This is a powerful and moving picture; seeing it after this summer's crop of Spielbergian sentimentality is a good reminder of what real movies are about. See it. Review: Das Boot is "science fiction" in all but date, and certainly deserves the title better than any of the SW or ST movies. It concentrates primarily on the personal and environmental stresses suffered by the members of a German U-Boat crew, and reproduces the submarine environment with much more detail and truthfulness than any similar movie I have ever seen. In particular, it is far superior to what I had thought the best such picture, The Enemy Below. It makes references to TEB and to other submarine pictures that must be conscious, but plot and character development are far superior. The movie is in German, and subtitled. I have German, and saw Das Boot with a group, some of whom also spoke it and some of whom did not. The non-German-speakers liked it just fine, although those of us who could understand (some) of the dialogue agreed that the subtitles failed to capture some of the jokes (especially the locker-room humor, which not objectionable, but about what you would expect in a submarine). The acting was first rate, as was the set design. You will be amazed at how small it is inside a sub. My only quarrel with the movie as that some effects (i.e. model work) had the sub moving much too fast through the water. By all means, see this picture. If you still think it has nothing to do with science fiction, compare it to Silent Running. I think you'll agree it is fundamentally the same kind of picture, but much better. _R. Carter ------------------------------ Date: 22 July 1982 10:41-PDT (Thursday) From: KING at KESTREL Subject: Hitchhikers' Guide broadcasts I started watching Hitchhikers' Guide yesterday. I'd like to maintain continuity when I go to Fair Lawn, N. J. and to Washington DC towards the end of August. Does anyone know of TV stations in these areas which are broadcasting HHGttG reasonably close to synchronously with channel 60 in Palo Alto? They just aired the first episode yesterday and will air one per week. Thanks. Dick ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jul 1982 1406-PDT From: Lynn Gold Subject: Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy According to the current KFJC program guide, the program is being aired Wednesday nights, I believe at 9:30PM (I don't have it in front of me as I type this, but I believe it to be right.). --Lynn ------------------------------ Date: 22 July 1982 20:55-EDT From: Howie Daniel Trachtman Subject: HHGtG and TRON Date: 12 July 1982 15:08 edt From: Boebert.SCOMP at MIT-MULTICS To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC Re: HHGtG and TRON 1. HHGtG snuck into town this Saturday. A 30-minute segment on PBS, so presumably we are going to get the whole thing. Special effects a little above the Dr. Who level; an adequate Dent and a perfect Prefect. I know about HHGtG on radio in the Boston area, but WHEN is it on PBS? --Howard-- ------------------------------ Date: 21-Jul-82 5:28PM-EDT (Wed) From: Todd Allen Subject: JUST JOINED! Just took a look at the SF-LOVERS drop bax here at Yale CS Dept. WOW!! But there sure is a lot of stuff out there!!! About TWOK: Have seen the movie twice (and enjoyed it greatly) and was lucky enough to see the Creatures Features thing out in SF (my sister was married in Berkely that weekend). However, all this analysis of the movie and refering to the book and all is begining to leave a bad taste in my mouth. As I watched the movie I certainly picked up on all the things mentioned in these columns and more, but all this back biting begins to wear. As for the book, well the movie has to stand on its own. Perhaps the book contains info left on the cutting room floor, and just maybe it sets out to correct deficiencies in the movie. But either way, the movie is a finished product separate from the book and not helped by it. Personally, I hope the flood of commentary on TWOK dries up! By the way, Ricardo Montalbon is/was quite impressive. The interview with him was nice. Though not particularly informative, it did give me the measure of the man. I am glad to see that others think (as I do) that Shatner is a rather shalow actor. An endorsement for Dennis Schmidt: Enjoyed seeing the reviews of "Way-farer", "Kensho", and "Sartori". Have read and enjoyed "Kensho" though I do not fall into any of the catagories mentioned by your reviewer. Mr Schmidt is an extremely competent author who tends to study contemporary issues in futuristic, pan galactic settings. I highly recommend him, and all his works to those as yet unfamiliar with him. On Samuel Delaney: Whew! For a while I was wondering why I couldn't make head or tail of "Dahlgren" and "Triton". It's good to see that others also find him impenetrable. On the other hand, "Babel 17" by Delaney is GREAT! Read it several times many times many years ago, and probably will read it again soon. Here is a brief synopsis from (possibly faulty -- "fuzzy") memory: This a we vs they pan galactic espionage situation. "They" are wreaking havok with sabotage, but no information can be gained as to who ar where they are located. To make maters worse, "they" have invented a language, Babel 17", which is used for all "their" communication. This language and its underlying assumptions and logic are so alien, that anyone learning to think in the language eventually becomes one of "their" agents and starts to perform acts of espionage and sabotage in a sort of fugue state. The protagonist is a cosmetically altered human (?) female ship master (captain) with the required skills (primarily languages) and contacts to be co-opted to break "their" code. The book is well written and highly accessible. You may have trouble with the story's basic assumptions about the effects of language, but it deserves careful consideration. this is a *MUST READ* book. Holographic memory: To whome it may concern: Tanx for the info on the holographic nature of memory. If you or anyone else has comments on "Electronic Dictator" a short story in a recent edition of Analog (or Fantasy & SF or IASFM - I'm not sure which), please broadcast them. The story proposed mitachondria (mitachondron according to the author) as the means of holographic memory, and proposed that virutally every cell in the body contains a "fuzzy" copy of your memory. ------------------------------ Date: 25-Jul-82 5:51PM-EDT (Sun) From: Todd Allen Subject: Holographic memory A few days ago I sent a message to SF-LOVERS reguarding a recent novellete that seemed related to recent a recent item on the holographic nature of memory. The correct reference is: "The Digital Dictator" by Ian Stewart, in the August 1982 Analog (last month) The story is weak (particulary from the cs point of view) but humorous. What i'd like to know is: is there any truth in the biological assertions / assumptions of the story? ------------------------------ Date: 20 July 1982 17:27 edt From: SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-MULTICS Subject: % of brain There was some work reported in SciAm in which pictures of oxygen use in the brain were made. One amusing result was that counting from 1 to 10 out loud used a different section of the brain from that used when counting to oneself. Needless to say there was no obvious dead load in the typical brain. As far as picking a percentage it might be a good idea to remember that the knee joints take a disproportionate fraction of the forces involved in walking but I imagine that removing half of one femur would make walking next to impossible. BTW If people are going to accuse ADA of being SF related I should mention that Peter Graves's (of I, Claudius fame) Hercules My Shipmate is in print again. It is an excellent renedering of the voyage of the Argo set near the end of the reign of the Triple Goddess. The novel itself is excellent in its renderings of Hercules, Orpheus and Jason but the book is worth reading for the appendix alone. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jul 1982 1648-EDT From: Roger H. Goun Subject: Humorless video games Where are they filming the new Pacman movie? On a Hollywood PAClot. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 27-Jul cGrath #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #23 *** EOOH *** Date: Tuesday, July 27, 1982 3:10AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #23 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 23 Jul 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 23 Today's Topics: SF Movies - TRON, Spoiler - TRON ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 17 Jul 1982 03:44:46-PDT From: decvax!duke!uok!uokvax!mwm at Berkeley Subject: TRON Tron opened today, and after reading the book (yes, I stooped that low), I had to go see it. Mini Review: GREAT Grafix/sfx. Plot? What Plot? TRON does not suffer from the one flaw in Star Wars: at no point during TRON do they let the plot get in the way of the movie, which occasionally happened in Star Wars. TRON will undoubtedly become a cult movie, being pre-target at the CS/Grafix freaks. I recommend see it, at least once. If you're a hard-core Grafix person, see it again, and again, and ... You might also consider reading the book, as it's slightly better sf (but who can tell at those depths?). mike ------------------------------ Date: 18 July 1982 22:25 edt From: Frankston.SoftArts at MIT-MULTICS Reply-to: Frankston at MIT-MULTICS (Bob Frankston) Subject: BOZOS:TRON::Doctor (nee Eliza):Video Games The corruption of terminology in TRON reminds me of the Firesign Theatre album "We're all Bozos on this Bus" (or somesuch title). It sounds like that starting points was a demonstration on the Lisp Doctor program. It was invoked via "(worker)". Use of the term MAC sounded like a reference to project MAC. TRON was a fairly impressive hack, but much of the humor came from the writer's misuse of words that sounded nice but were totally inappropriate (like de-resed). I just took the attitude that TRON was simply a vehicle for cute graphics and some action. One question -- why human faces instead of computer-generated faces. We it simply too much of a technical annoyance or was it felt that the human faces were need as a reference for the audience. ------------------------------ Date: 26-Jul-82 9:48:56 EDT From: duntemann.wbst Subject: See TRON anyway An awful lot of my friends, including a good many respected hackers, are avoiding TRON before the fact as being silly, juvenile, and not worth the money. Two out of three maybe...but I saw it the other night, and it was fully worth the money. Not for the plot (hilarious) or the characters (what characters?) but for the G R A P H I C S !!!!!!!! You guys have never seen computer graphics like they throw around wholesale in that movie. Even if you have seen little things running around on a 19" RGB monitor with 1024 X 1024 resolution, seeing it up on the big screen is QUITE another matter. It is one the most beautifully done evocations of an utterly alien world I have ever seen on film. Once you insert actors it loses something, granted. But the wide views of a solar sailer sliding down a beam of light over geometric purple mountains was magnificent. And as for its juvenile silliness, well, heck; try to lay back and just let it take you. SF is for lots of different things; this one exists primarily to help you forget mortgage payments, dropped transmissions, and why the dog's been throwing up all week. To me that's worth 4 bucks. I also saw The Secret of NIMH, and I'll include a quickie opinion (since it's waythehellout in the hinterlands of appropriateness here) when I have a little more time. --Jeff Duntemann (duntemann.wbst at PARC-MAXC) ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jul 1982 2144-EDT From: JHENDLER at BBNA Subject: TRON To avoid being redundant I will not mention that this is a great movie for hackers and video game players, while leaving something to be desired for the rest of the world. Instead, I'd like to throw in a quick reference to my favorite scene, The little green cubbies where the hackers worked. As a hacker who works in one of these little suckers I couldn't avoid a chuckle. All hail Herman-Miller -Jim Hendler TI Dallas ------------------------------ Date: 07/21/82 00:04:01 From: LWF@MIT-MC Subject: TRON A fact that may interest some people is that while 65% of the movie was computer animation, it only accounted for 20% of the movie's budget. ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, July 27, 1982 3:10AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Subject: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following ten messages in this digest discuss some plot details in the movie TRON. They may not wish to read on. ------------------------------ Date: 16 July 1982 07:29-EDT From: Christopher C. Stacy Subject: TRON spoiler Aside from the flashy computer graphics, which are as excellent as they are cracked up to be, I thought I would share a few of the more intense scenes from the creative script of TRON with all you Spoiler Lovers: 1. Flybys of big space ships. 2. The evil Sark Lord talking to his Master. 3. Hack Solo acting like his usual cocky self. 4. The old IO tower, a religious fanatic who is perhaps more than he seems, mumbling mystical mumblage at Luke. This is followed by music sounding similar to "Yoda's Theme". 5. The Millenium Lightsail being coaxed into hyperspace for a fast, dramatic, and temporary escape from the Imperial battle cruiser. 6. To introduce the final light-disk duel, the evil MCP feels a disturbance...slowely he says: "I feel a presence...there is another warrior on the grid!" Indeed, it feels like a presence we've not felt in years! Cheers, Chris PS., In the theatre I saw the movie in, they were showing Star Wars reruns commercials before the main feature began. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jul 1982 05:38:50-PDT From: decvax!duke!uok!uokvax!jejones at Berkeley Subject: TRON as Disney allegory The review of TRON on NPR's "Morning Edition" show made an interesting point: one can point out possible similarities between Dillinger's takeover of ENCOM and an alleged (not being a follower of Disney internals, I couldn't say) move of business types into control of the organization Walt Disney built--after all, the reviewer said, ENCOM is rather similar as an acronym to EPCOT (Experimental Prototype Community Of Tomorrow, which is going up at some Disney park), and the first name of Dr. Gibbs, who built up ENCOM from a garage business, *is* Walter. Oh, well--Gerald Weinberg must not like TRON at all. I did, though, for the effects, and having experienced a fair number of programs (not to mention possibly at least one devoutly-worshipped programming language) that may reflect their creators only too well. (I'm sure mine do.) One question, though. TRON, like TWoK, lacked a good deal of supporting detail which could only be found in the novelization (which I think I'd like to have seen, though budgets may be a limitation). I'd be interested in hearing some cinematic flames on why the holes were (if indeed they were) so gaping in these movies when compared to, say, *Star Wars*, which, as a friend so felicitously said, never let the plot get in the way of the movie. James Jones (duke!uok!uokvax!jejones) ------------------------------ Date: 16 July 1982 10:55 edt From: Barry Margolin at MIT-MULTICS Subject: TRON and gratuitous sex Possibly a spoiler warning: Yes, the female part in the TRON movie was pretty gratuitous, but that is standard fare these days, so don't expect any better. The book makes a much bigger deal over her, and it is much more effective. In the book, Tron is motivated during the first half by two things: his innate desire to do what his User (the book always capitalized the term) wanted, i.e. destroy the MCP, and his desire to see his beloved again. Every time the narration entered his mind, there was always the mention of "the one for whom he lived" (or something along those lines). The book actually had a scene in Yori's "apartment", and described how programs "do it" to some extent. It turns out that programs do not actually kiss, but at the end of the story Flynn kisses Yori, and she is confused. However, she enjoyed it so much that after she is reunited with Tron (after he defeats the MCP) she kisses him, explaining that that is something that Users do. barmar ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jul 1982 1826-PDT From: Craig W. Reynolds Subject: TRON nits To CHUQUI@MIT-AI: well yes, meaningless sex scenes are a lose, but TRON didn't have a sex scene. There was some dialogue that indicated that Flynn and Lora used to be lovers and that Alan and Lora currently were. By analogy, the "electronic alter egos" of these characters appealed to each other. We see FLYNN (the program) kiss YORI, and later she shows TRON this bit of user-chic. This is gratuitous sex? Also, the MCP was not written by Dillinger, SARK is the embodiment of his contributions to the system. The MCP is supposed to be a truely Artificially Intelligent entity which "started as a chess program", back when Gibbs was a young hacker. Mostly it programmed itself. There was also some crack about TRON being "...a 50 year old's idea of what kids would like ...". The basic story of TRON was by Steve Lisberger who is currently 31 years old. I can't think of anyone who was in a major creative position who was older than 38. No "old Disney hands" had any significant input to this project. Remember, "The Secret of NIMH" (no not the National Institutes of...) was the Disney movie that Disney didn't make and TRON was the non-Disney movie that Disney produced. -c ------------------------------ Date: 16 July 1982 17:16-EDT From: Andrew Scott Beals Subject: TRON I'm replying to Chuck's message replying to me. I guess I can accept (sort of) an alter-ego approach to programs. However, I can ``feel'' this a lot better in an operating system than in a program. Take, for instance, UNIX(tm). It's a GREAT system to develop software on...to me, it feels comfortable (v7 sh), but I prefer C-shell (written not by Bourne at Bell, but by someone at Berkeley). I can feel the difference between the two. Hopping to (ugh!^3) EXEC-8 is one hell of a shock. From an environment which promotes experimenting and poking I end up in an environment which is openly hostile to everyone, including the people who wrote it (personally, I think that they're all on death row awaiting execution...). However, personifying them seems a bit far-fetched. It seems that this is just a matter of personal ability to suspend disbelief (ramble, ramble...). - Andy ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jul 1982 1357-PDT From: Dolata at SUMEX-AIM Subject: Programs mirroring authors I went to a seminar a few months ago in which the topic was the program/ programmer interactions. The fellow had a number of examples of how the program closely mirrors the environment around it. For example, groups working with the IBM team concept ( a hierarchical structure, a manager with about 7 subordinates (teams or proggers)) tended to produce code with lots of subroutine calls, and definite hierarchical flow of control, while more democratic teams produce co-routines, agenda driven mechanisms, etc. He also told about a company that wanted to create a two pass compiler. They put 6 proggers on it who worked best in three teams of two, and created a three pass compiler. Another interesting note was that the proggers tend to think that the higher level code is interesting and needs more work, while managers generally tend to feel that the nitty-gritty code is what needs to be worked on! This kept coming into my mind when I saw TRON. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jul 1982 05:09:23-PDT From: decvax!duke!uok!uokvax!jejones at Berkeley Subject: Origin of Tron Anyone who has used Microsoft Basic can tell you that TRON is the command that turns on statement execution tracing, listing the line numbers of statements as they are executed. (I hope no one makes a movie called TROFF...) James Jones duke!uok!uokvax!jejones ------------------------------ Date: 16 July 1982 13:57 edt From: York.Multics at MIT-MULTICS (William M. York) Subject: shadows Craig, The shadows mentioned by people were REAL shadows that intruded into the animation via whatever rotoscoping technique was used (it looked like blue-screen or something). It was most noticible when the guard is walking across the transparent tops of the holding cells where Flynn, RAM, and Tron are held prisoner. Bill [ Forwarded by Craig W. Reynolds -- Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jul 1982 1831-PDT From: Craig W. Reynolds Subject: Re: shadows I remember the scene you mention. I didn't see that set myself, but I think there was actually a shiney transparent sheet that the guard was standing on, and that the "extra" image was a reflection, not a shadow. Since the set pieces were flat black, it was usually easy to lose any shadow in the photo-roto step. Also the lighting for the original photography of the "electronic world" was always very flat and diffuse to reduce shading and shadowing of the white (with black "circuits") costumes. -c ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 18 July 1982 00:01-EDT From: G.JMTURN at MIT-EECS Subject: TRON and the real world. I just got back from seeing TRON, and in one respect, I think the movie comes very close to reality. Let me demonstrate by way of a question: In what way is Dillenger and the MCP different than your local sysop and operating system? Answer: The sysop makes less money. Ah, you argue, but the MCP stole programs, an operating system is supposed to prevent this! The problem is that given an OS, someone has to have the key. This person then has access to all the data on the system. Now, in theory, the people running the system are supposed to be responsible. But in reality, the kind of people attracted to this kind of work are the last people you want doing it. I have found that, like in any "enforcement" situation, the enforcers tend to go off on a power trip. Reality copies fiction still more. This week, someone used a wheel account on MIT-OZ to do nasty things. What was the reaction of the system managers? They revoked most of the wheel and operator accounts. Now if I can just forge myself a level 6 account...gee, where did that laser come from...? Note: That wasn't a true bit! It was Tri-state. James P.S. I'm not saying that all system managers are twits, but most that I've had occasion to meet are. It something like security at a con, anyone who want to do it should be the last person to pick. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 28-Jul cGrath Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #24 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 24 Jul 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 24 Today's Topics: SF Books - "True Names" & "Nightflyer" & Heavenly Breakfast & Star Colony & Roderick & The Jade Enchantress & ET: The Extra-Terrestrial & The Wrath of Khan, SF TV - HHGttG, SF Music - Blade Runner, SF Movies - TRON & Das Boot, Random Topics - American Films, SF Topics - Stine Query, Humor - Genderless Video Games ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 23 Jul 1982 1122-EDT From: BLACKWELL at CMU-20C Subject: True Names Indeed a hard book to find, but well worth the trouble of looking for it. It is realy the second novella in a two novella set - Dell SF Binary Star #5. The two stories are ``Nightflyer'' by George R. R. Martin, and ``True Names'' by Verner Vinge. I've seen the book filed under both names, so be sure to look carefully. If you are in Berkeley, a SF/Fantasy store called `Dark Carnival' on Telegraph had several copies last time I checked... -mike- ------------------------------ Date: 27 July 1982 07:58 mst From: Lippard at PCO-MULTICS (James J. Lippard) Reply-to: Lippard%PCO-Multics at MIT-MULTICS Subject: Samuel R. Delany A book I would recommend for understanding Delany is "Heavenly Breakfast", by Delany. It is an essay about time he spent in a commune, and by reading it you can see where he got a lot of material for "Dhalgren". ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 25 Jul 1982 17:30-PDT From: jim at RAND-UNIX Subject: Star Colony, by Keith Laumer Mini-Review: A disappointment to a long-standing Laumer fan. Review: "Aha!" I said. At long last a new Laumer book. Both types of Laumers are always quite good: the Retief books (in small or medium doses) are hilarious, and the action books, where we (and probably Laumer) don't (doesn't) know where the books are going until they get there. Star Colony is neither type. It's an attempt at something sort of serious, with a disjointed plot and dull characters. When I was 1/4 of the way through I would have given up for any random author, but I plugged through merely out of respect for all the other Laumer books that I like. Occasionally there is a flash of Retief-like humor, or a run of action, but even they seem out of place in the mostly serious treatment of unlikely colonists and more unlikely intelligent aliens. Star Colony is the first of a three-book series about one of the first colonies from Earth, planted on an Earth-like planet and then forgotten while Earth goes through the usual problems. The story deals with initializing the colony and the experiences of several groups of early colonists. The dust jacket says this book is the result of a four-year effort. I wish he had concentrated on more Imperium, Lafayette O'Leary, or something else. Hardbound $15.95, St. Martin's Press, (c) 1981. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jul 1982 16:19:19-PDT From: decvax!duke!uok!uokvax!jejones at Berkeley Subject: Roderick Gee, I'd think for sure that there was some discussion of John Sladek's *Roderick, or the Education of a Young Robot* in SF-LOVERS. Perhaps it's in an archive somewhere? (I enjoyed it thoroughly--the idea of all those school administrators, Herberts though they might be, not realizing Roderick was *not* human, is a tad much, but think of it as like the convention of ignoring the puppeteers in bunraku. In a sentence, the same kind of madness, perhaps tempered, that *The Mueller-Fokker Effect* had, plus a nifty portrayal of Roderick, who could definitely pass the Turing test. So when will we see parts two and three?) James Jones (duke!uok!uokvax!jejones) ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jul 82 12:44-PDT From: mclure at SRI-UNIX Subject: SF column SCIENCE FICTION By Roland J. Green (c) 1982 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service) John Sladek's ''Roderick'' (TimescapePocket Books, $2.75 paperback) reminded me very much of an electronic-age version of Voltaire's ''Candide.'' The product of an experiment in artificial intelligence at a second-rate university, Roderick the Robot is farmed out for ''adoption'' when the grant that financed his creation is cut off. His adventures on his way to his new family, in school and in his frequent wanderings give him a robot's-eye view of modern society. They give Sladek an ideal vehicle for satire. Novel-length satires frequently don't work well as stories, however successful the satire may be. Sladek, however, knows the novelist's craft - just as well, because this is the first book of yet another trilogy. The pacing is brisk and the narrative is as easy to follow as can reasonably be expected with such a large cast of characters and an essentially episodic structure. Sladek seems to be well-informed about most of the things he satirizes - or at least capable of drawing a convincing and consistent picture of them. He hits gypsies, university politics, the CIA, art critics, public education, the Catholic Church, visiting Oriental potentates, television (it gives Roderick his initial notions about how the world is run), the counterculture and much else. He darts from one target on this list to the next, always with stiletto in hand. Occasionally Sladek lets his dislike - notably of the Catholic Church - carry him into producing mindlessly savage caricatures. Most of the time, though, he shows a mastery of both the novel and satire, which promises well for the ''Roderick the Robot'' trilogy. In E. Hoffman Price's graceful fantasy ''The Jade Enchantress'' (Del ReyBallatine, $2.75 paperback), a minor Chinese goddess begins the story by seeking a mortal lover, a shrewd young farmer. Price tells what follows from this with wit, sympathy for all of his large cast of characters, a profound knowledge of Tang Dynasty China that never slows the brisk pacing and a delightful savoring of Chinese philosophy, sexual mores, magic and cuisine. Along with Price's ''The Devil Wives of Li Fong'' (also a Ballatine paperback), this book recalls the Judge Dee mysteries of Robert Van Gulik - an extraordinarily effective use of another time and culture to bring a new dimension to a genre. The novelization of a motion picture screenplay seldom produces a worthwhile book. Both the raw material and the author are often less than outstanding, entirely apart from the problems of translating a story from one medium to another. However, two of this summer's most popular science fiction films have given two excellent writers material for a pair of thoroughly agreeable novels. William Kotzwinkle's ''E.T. The Extra-Terrestrial'' (BerkleyPutnam, $12.95 hardcover, $2.75 paperback) uses the author's gift for surrealism and fantasy on a screenplay ideally suited for it. Kotzwinkle faithfully re-creates the contrast between the marooned alien scientist with his almost magical powers and the classically conventional suburb where he lands. He also does excellent work with the three main characters - the E.T., the boy who befriends him and the boy's mother. Vonda McIntyre's ''The Wrath of Khan'' (TimescapePocket Books, $2.95) does equal justice to an entirely different sort of raw material - the second ''Star Trek'' novel. She has wit, good pacing, a sound grasp of her characters (including some like Lt. Saavik, whom the movie leaves poorly defined) and an entirely adequate understanding of military institutions. She even tackles with some success the various scientific improbabilities of the script, notably the Genesis effect. ------------------------------ Date: 27 July 1982 08:52-PDT (Tuesday) From: KING at KESTREL Subject: Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy It's being aired 9:00 PM on channel 60 on Wednesdays. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 1982 1545-EDT From: Rich Schneider Subject: HHGttG I talked to someone in the programming office of WGBH (Boston PBS) last Friday. They have no current plans of airing HHGttH, gasp *sigh*. Let's start swamping them with letters. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jul 1982 at 1608-CDT From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 Subject: No BLADERUNNER soundtrack album? According to the local record store, there isn't going to be any soundtrack record of the BLADERUNNER music. With all the hype the movie got, and Vangelis being pretty hot property at present, this seems strange. Has anybody heard anything to the contrary, or any reason why such a decision might have been made? John M. (via HJJH at UTEXAS-11) ------------------------------ Date: 17 July 1982 01:26-EDT (Saturday) From: Robert A. Carter Reply-to: CARTER at RUTGERS Subject: Yet Another TRON Review Readers of SFL might find it interesting to compare the mixed reviews TRON has received here with the reactions of one "serious" critic. [The following are excerpts from a very long review in the Village Voice, July 20, 1982. The Voice (if there is anyone out there who has never seen it) is a very successful kitsch-Left New York weekly, the writers of which tend toward self-importance. This is never more so than when dealing with Film (not "movies"). Rickey is the second- string Voice film critic.] Let a Million Microchips Bloom By Carrie Rickey * * * Congenial pioneer of the technoaesthetic vanguard, TRON is an original--formally, conceptually, and philosophically. * * * The imagery, so hard to verbally approximate, is nothing like any computer art I've ever seen. Most so-called computer-generated art is interested in abstract or optical illusionism, which has a fascination as limited as that of a trompe l'oeil painting. How compelling can an image of geometrical shape illuminated by Day-Glo color be, even though a computer, not a person, created it? There are, however, fine arts equivalents to TRON. Much of it has the hallucinatory radiance, the indeterminate space, of the paintings of Ed Paschke, whose canvases typically depict people and places irradiated with unearthly light. Searching for an artworld technique applicable to TRON, I'd have to call it a computer silkscreen. Like Rauschenberg or Warhol, Lisberger is interested in layering images and effects to give a simultaneous impression of flatness and depth. To get the look of TRON's computerworld, Lisberger filmed the actors in black and white on bare sets, reducing their gestures to Kabuki-like formality. Color and backgrounds were added afterward by matte, animation, computer- and hand-painted enhancements, so the multi-stage silkscreen metaphor is particularly apt. * * * TRON disarmingly demonstrates that the most sophisticated and intimidating technology can be mastered by engaging schlepps and nerds who have decided not to let it master them. It's an incredible document of propaganda, exulting in and demystifying computer power. Ultimately, its narrative is not unlike that of STAR WARS, ever about the triumph of the democrats over the plutocrats. But I've never seen a blossoming of democracy quite as spectacular of TRON's people's purge of the MCP, which lets a million microchips bloom, the MCP tower of power redistributed to a galaxy of small energy centers. Possibly the first movie to celebrate computer populism, TRON could warm the cockles of a digitizer's heart with its mix of low sentiment and high tech. While sensibility and computer intelligence have long been considered mutually exclusive, in TRON their conjunction is exhilarating, and the move goes so far as to say that to exist at all both must coexist. To say that TRON envisions technology as it has never been seen before is an understatement. No movie more deserves the praise, state of the art. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 1982 1143-PDT From: Jwagner at OFFICE Subject: Das Boot & the failure of American film makers "(Das Boot) is a powerful and moving picture; seeing it after this summer's crop of Spielbergian sentimentality is a good reminder of what real movies are about. See it." -- Robert A. Carter I couldn't agree more! I also agree that the movie has many elements of the best in Science Fiction -- in fact, I found it similar to Alien in mood, although the "monster" in Das Boot is the American destroyers cutting the waters above, sending depth charges below. Great! Comparing this movie to the current crop of SF thrillers is entirely fair and warranted. It's a real indictment of American (Hollywood) movie making -- it seems all we can produce are more of the same ol' techno-thriller-whiz-bang genre, but, unfortunately, those are the big money makers. SF movies tend to rely on fancy effects and ignore the more subtle aspects of fine-film making. In ET, Spielberg produced a sensitive and insightful film for children who (presumably) are more easily entertained than adults. When is an SF director going to produce a thoughtful and emotionally stimulating film for grownups? Don't try to pawn BladeRunner as such a movie -- it relies entirely on special effects and gratuitous violence (aimed mostly at women) and therefore is an utter cinematic failure (not counting its flawed, jig-saw-puzzle plot). Tron, Star Trek II, and the others are visually exciting, but little else. It's a shame that SF movie makers are squandering the genre for the sake of big bucks. Jim Wagner/jwagner@office ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jul 1982 20:11:21-PDT From: cbosg!nscs!jpj at Berkeley Subject: G. Harry Stine In SF-LOVERS Digest, V7 #1, there was a reference to G. Harry Stine, where he was billed as, "everybody's favorite futurist." Years ago, when I was heavily involved w/model rocketry, I read and put to good use a book by a G. Harry Stine on that topic - it was an excellent book. Is this the same individual? If so, what is his background that would qualify him as the above quote indicates? Cheers... Jim Jenal ------------------------------ Date: 22 July 1982 11:03-EDT From: Reilly F. Hayes The last SF-LOVERS submission from VASAK (Tom VASAK) was actually not from Tom Vasak. I thought that I included a note to the effect that it was from me. AI wasn't receiving network links that day , so I used Tom's username to make the submission. I am really Rlyeh@MIT-AI ------------------------------ Date: 07/20/82 17:26:16 From: junkmail.umcp-cs@udel-relay (Sent by ___037) Have you heard about the new candy that is available only via ARPAnet? It's called TIP-TACs! - This is so bad that I won't even sign my name... ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 28-Jul cGrath Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #25 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 25 Jul 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 25 Today's Topics: SF Movies - Revenues & The Secret of NIMH & Blade Runner & Poltergeist & ET: The Extra-Terrestrial, SF Topics - Books vs Movies, Spoiler - ET: The Extra-Terrestrial ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 Jul 1982 1350-PDT From: Robert Amsler Subject: 11 Top-Grossing Films (week ending July 7) (source: Variety) Ranks: Last-week =>This week Film Name (Rank Change + = up 1, - = down 1) Total to Date Weeks on Chart 1 => 1. E T - The Extra-Terrestrial $23,721,283 ( 4 weeks) 5 => 2. Blade Runner (+++) $ 4,363,497 ( 2 weeks) 3 => 3. Rocky III $23,560,379 ( 6 weeks) 4 => 4. Poltergeist $13,808,381 ( 5 weeks) 7 => 5. Annie (++) $ 7,572,065 ( 7 weeks) 2 => 6. Firefox (----) $ 7,134,092 ( 3 weeks) 6 => 7. Star Trek II-Wrath of Kahn (-) $15,664,867 ( 5 weeks) 8 => 8. The Thing $ 2,559,139 ( 2 weeks) 9 => 9. Author Author $ 2,304,756 ( 3 weeks) 10=>10. Bambi $ 4,321,303 (15 weeks) 11=>11. Megaforce $ 972,272 ( 2 weeks) ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jul 1982 05:36:47-PDT From: decvax!duke!uok!uokvax!jab at Berkeley Subject: The Secret of NIMH The Secret of NIMH (I believe that's spelled right) is an experience. The animation is very, very good. It puts Disney studios to shame (note that I distinguish between present Disney Studios and the works Walt Disney worked on.) I would compare this to Walt Disney at his best --- it isn't *quite* as good, but extremely close. And that's not even the good part! The plot is similar to some of the plots Walt Disney pulled out of his hat: not so intense as to frighten children, but interesting enough to keep everybody well entertained. I'll not say much more, except that I was pleased that Walt Disney's craft is finally being followed. Jeff ------------------------------ Date: 07/13/82 21:27:14 From: ZEMON@MIT-MC Subject: The Secret of NIMH This is a /good/ movie. I haven't seen animation like this in YEARS. Along with a story THAT good . . . . I think Disney's blown it. Again. (Why'd they ever let Bluth (?) go, anyway?) Go see it. (And take your family and friends, especially the youngsters.) -Landon- ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jul 1982 0039-PDT From: Jim McGrath Subject: Secret of Nimh Star Watch: Disney Deserters Create New Animated Film By BOB THOMAS Associated Press Writer HOLLYWOOD (AP) - On Sept. 13, 1979, Don Bluth led a band of fellow artists out of Walt Disney studios. Almost three years and $7 million later, the result of their exodus can be seen in the nation's theaters. The MGM-United Artists release is called ''The Secret of NIMH,'' and its similarity to the classic Disney animated features is more than coincidental. Bluth, Gary Goldman, John Pomeroy and the other 14 defectors vowed to carry on the Walt Disney traditions that they felt were being stifled at the studio Disney had founded. Don Bluth Productions started in Bluth's garage and still operates in a modest manner, with headquarters in a building behind a savings and loan on Ventura Boulevard in Studio City. The atmosphere is more confident now than it was when ''NIMH'' was in its early stages. The company has now completed its first feature and has already embarked on another. Bluth was in a state of high anticipation as the ''NIMH'' openings approached. That's unusual for a man who is normally under total control. ''We proved we could make a feature on schedule and on budget,'' he said ''Now we hope producers and exhibitors will be convinced there is a future for animation. They will be - if our picture makes money.'' ''The Secret of NIMH'' is based on a Robert C. O'Brien book about Mrs. Frisby, a resourceful mouse who tries to keep her family together and seeks help from a number of forest animals, including a superintelligent cadre of rats. The animation and effects are top grade, as are the voices: Dom DeLuise, Elizabeth Hartman, John Carradine, Peter Strauss, Derek Jacobi, Hermione Baddeley. Bluth said that he had learned much as leader of his own band of artists. ''First of all, the value of story,'' he said. ''I bought five or six how-to books and learned all about plot points and paradigms - the rise-and-fall action of the story. I also realized that we needed a comic and a villain. We turned Jeremy the crow into a comedian; the villain came late, one of the rats. ''The second thing I learned was how to get along with people,'' Bluth said. ''Making an animated feature is not just drawing. It's dealing with many artistic people who become angry and excited, hold grudges and need to be convinced to get along with each other. That part of my job was even harder than the story.'' Bluth provided incentive for cooperation. He cut in all of the staff - 140 at full production - for a share of the profits. ''They were told, 'This picture is something that you own, too.' That was reason for them to dig down inside themselves and bring more to the picture,'' said Bluth. ''The Secret of NIMH'' is a rarity this summer: a G-rated movie. Most producers seek to avoid the G. Not Bluth. ''Producers believe that the teen-age market requires movies that are fast, violent, sex or drug oriented,'' he said. ''That puts a real burden on young people: To be treated as if they have no feelings. ''I'm encouraged by the big business being done by 'E.T.' Steven Spielberg has put another diet on the plate of teen-age moviegoers, a movie that is frankly sentimental. I'm hopeful that 'E.T.' will help make room for other family pictures. Like 'The Secret of NIMH.''' ------------------------------ Date: 26 July 1982 13:05-EDT (Monday) From: David H. Kaufman Subject: Bladerunner I enjoyed Bladerunner-the-movie, but felt that it did not live up to Bladerunner-the-book. Actually, the movie pulled from the book the society and the characters names (but not the characters themselves) and then went off on its own. The combination of book (read first) and movie I found interesting - they complement each other without telling the same story; kind of like reading the book Star Wars only more so. Has anybody noticed yet that Harrison Ford can't act? He's always essentially the same character - luckily for him, the strong man with a conscience roles are plentiful these days (This is not derogatory; I rather enjoy the character he always ends up playing, I'm just amused when I see Han Solo swing through Raiders, etc.). Going off at a tangent from my tangent, did anybody else keep seeing Star Wars and Empire antics during Bladerunner? Each time Deckard pulled off an athletic stunt, I saw Luke or Han doing the same thing a few years ago . . . . Right, now I'll leave the poor movie makers alone and ask a simple question: does anyone know when HitchHiker's Guide Book Three is coming out? (And for all you who enjoyed the first two, I suggest that you see if you can get your hands on the records, or tapes of the radio play: they're kind of the same situation I described above about storylines. But don't buy the records if you can avoid it - they have a short life before they begin to fall apart.) Hope I haven't bored you too much, Dave Kaufman ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jul 82 2:03-PDT From: mclure at SRI-UNIX Subject: flicks Well, I've caught my two or three movies for the year. Here are some short reviews for those of you who hate the long ones from the newswires. Poltergeist: *** More of Spielberg's Southern California suburban comedy-drama. The effects by ILM are excellent. The plot is a bit weak. Overall, I'd say it's worthwhile once for anyone in the teens or over. Not recommended for little kids. Very intense in places. "Last June, Spielberg paid $60,500 for the balsa wood sled with 'Rosebud' painted on it, featured with the poignant last scene of Citizen Kane. He said he wants to hang it over his desk to remind him of how important quality is in films. Maybe some day Rosebud will remind him that bigger, louder schlockier gimmicks, mixed with blood, violence, and ersatz science, are not enough to make a motion picture memorable." Martin Gardner, in Discover E.T.: ** 1/2 More of Spielberg's Southern California suburban comedy-fantasy. Perhaps a great children's film but tiresome otherwise. I still think The Black Stallion from 1980 surpasses it and touches adults much better too, not to mention TBS's more beautiful photography, lyrical hypnotic island sequences, and haunting score. E.T. is awfully mushy in places but hysterical in others (school-room). Overall, I'd say it's worthwhile for any children. Adults might get bored in places. I did. "Spielberg sides with the children so wholeheartedly that he reduces them and their adversaries alike to two-dimensional characters. Bad guys start chasing good guys, and this film, racing at the pace of a video game, becomes little more than a slick thriller. The viewer feels manipulated, as by a tear-jerker or a sitcom. All special effects stops are pulled for the climax. Spielberg's technical mastery is indisputable. If he ever grows up, he has the tools to make a film that is truly out of this world." John Stickney, in Discover Just to give some sense of how I feel about Spielberg, his only movie that has really impressed me is the TV movie Duel. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jul 82 18:59:40 EDT (Tue) From: Steve Bellovin Subject: E.T. George Will had an interesting comment about E.T. in the July 19 "Newsweek": Throughout the movie, [scientists] have been hunting the little critter, electronically eavesdropping on the house and generally acting like Watergate understudies.... But what is bothersome is the animus against science, which is seen as a morbid calling for callous vivisectionists and other unfeeling technocrats.... Hostility to science is the anti-intellectualism of the semi-intellectual. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jul 1982 2221-EDT From: James M. Turner Subject: Is film/video going to take over SF I just saw E.T., and the quality of the film brings up some serious questions about the viability of written SF. E.T. could very well win the Oscar if nothing *really* spectacular comes along (co-staring Jesus as Bob the mailman, or something along those lines.) In a year when nothing seems to be coming out of the top SF authors but rehashed plots and characters, the high quality and quantity (Gee Phil, these things make money...) of SF films acts as a dramatic counter-pointer. In the past, the inability of the camera to capture what minds could imagine has restricted the impact the movie industry could make on SF. But recent improvements in special effects make me wonder if the written medium may not be inferior. Where is it written in stone that books must be better than movies. Is this an elitist attitude? 1000 years ago, you didn't have mass market paperbacks. Everyone told stories. Now the art of story telling is almost gone. Should we lament the possible passing of written SF, or should we exalt in a new way to experience the wonders of imagination? I'll leave it to you to decide... James (One in a continuing series of attempts to divert SFL from movie reviews) ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, July 28, 1982 4:36AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Subject: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The last message in this digest discuss some plot details in the movie ET: The Extra-Terrestrial. Some readers may not wish to read on. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jul 1982 1638-PDT From: First at SUMEX-AIM Subject: Cardiac Arrest in E.T. - *SPOILER* Like the rest of the civilized world, I thoroughly enjoyed E.T. but I strongly question the believability of the medical aspects of the film. After E.T. is found lying gravely ill on the bathroom floor, he is hooked up to the mobile Intensive Care Unit while heroic efforts are being made to keep him alive. He subsequently deteriorates and has an arrest. The medical accuracy of the resussitative effort was impeccable--in fact, instead of using actors they incorporated medical people to go through the motions of reviving E.T.--something which becomes an automatic action to doctors. It was therefore an excellent depiction of a real "code" (medical jargon for reviving efforts after a cardiac arrest) but this was not a human being! The EKG, blood pressure, drugs used, etc. were particular for human physiology and anatomy. clearly, E.T. was quite different than humans in more than appearance--esp. his abilities to heal by touching. Medical procedures for a code were developed with knowledge of where blood vessels are, etc. It would be incredibly unlikely that they could even figure out where to insert IV lines, let alone know which drugs to use and in what doeses. One could say that the believability standards in E.T. are lower than in most other SF films because of its fairy tale tone and the fact that Spielberg has a history of not playing close attention to such details in his films. But given the large amount of screen time devoted to the fine details of the resussitative efforts (including the liberal use of medical jargon), there should have been more consideration of the unlikliness of the situation. --Michael (FIRST @ SUMEX-AIM) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 28-Jul cGrath Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #26 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 26 Jul 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 26 Today's Topics: SF Books - Here's the Plot...What's the Title & 2010 & Windhaven, SF Movies - Destination Moon & Computercide & The Thing, SF Topics - Short vs Long & Series & Brain Use, Random Topics - Dolphin User Group, Humor - Genderless Video Games, Spoiler - The Thing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 18 July 1982 2056-EDT (Sunday) From: Kevin.Dowling at CMU-10A Subject: query (whats the title and author) Someone recently (within the past few years) wrote a novel which discussed juggling among aliens with more than two arms.. Does anyone remember this? I'm guessing Spider Robinson but am probably wrong. nivek [ You are probably thinking of Lord Valentine's Castle, by Robert Silverberg (1979). The aliens were the Skandars, and they jugled with four arms. -- Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 1982 at 1112-CDT From: Clyde W. Hoover Subject: 2010 preview I just got my September issue of Playboy, which, in addition to its' usual material, contains an excerpt from Clarke's '2010: Odyessey Two', his sequel-in-progress to '2001: A Space Odyessey'. First impressions: Pretty good stuff. Clarke seems to have gotten back to writing about fanastic worlds and life forms and less about technological wonders (as in 'The Fountains of Paradise'). Clarke has a fine imagination about extraterrestial life forms (as in 'Meeting With Medusa'). If the fleshed out book reads as good as this excerpt, it should be prime Clarke. I have one major problem with this story though. '2010' follows the movie rather than the book, (which I prefer as being a polished version of the movie). The monolith is in orbit about Jupiter (the mystery of Iatepus's differing brightness was very nicely used in the '2001' book), but the most glaring deviation is that the book ends with the Starchild detonating all of the orbital bomb platforms and gazing down at his new domain. There is, at least in this excerpt (I am waiting for the last installation in December), no mention of this. So this promises to be a good story (thankfully - I wince at sequels to self-contained stories such as '2001'). ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jul 82 12:03-PDT From: mclure at SRI-UNIX Subject: review of WINDHAVEN WINDHAVEN, by George R.R. Martin and Lisa Tuttle Timescape Books This is a rather pleasant book which is actually three strongly linked novella's with some additional padding material. The first novella "Storms" was published in a 1975 Analog. The second, "One-Wing" was published in a 1980 Analog, and presumably the last, "The Fall" and the padding material were written most recently to form the book. Considering all this, it hangs together fairly well as a quasi-adventure. Without giving away too much (most of this is on the cover), it's safe to say that the book is about a female in a non-technical society on a planet called Windhaven. The inhabitants are actually descendents of space colonizers but seem to have lost most of the science the colonizers must have possessed. Apparently the colonizers crash-landed many years earlier after a lengthy trip on a light-sail. The sail has been turned into wings for a subset of the colonizers. Because of the low gravity and dense atmosphere, these Flyers can actually fly. The book is about various conflicts within this female's mind and how she copes with Flyer society and Land-Bound society. This character (and the others) are fleshed out well. The book is good and rather touching at the end, but I would not say it is a great book. Stuart ------------------------------ Date: 27 July 1982 0852-EDT From: Nathaniel.Borenstein at CMU-10A Reply-to: Nathaniel.Borenstein at CMU-10A Subject: Destination Moon I saw this 1950 movie on TV the other night, expecting the usual amusing 1950's-SF nonsense. I was greatly surprised by the general scientific accuracy of the movie (although the atomic-powered rocket was done rather naively), and was eagerly awaiting the credits to see who was responsible for getting the facts right. Unfortunately, Pittsburgh TV stations seem to regard credits as completely optional, and they were omitted entirely. Anyone out there have any idea who was (or were) the brains behind "Destination Moon" and its startling rationality? ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 1982 2203-PDT From: Daul at OFFICE-3 (William B. Daul) Subject: TV Movie On Sunday Night (NBC) Looks like a real classic (ha, ha). NBC has "COMPUTERCIDE" as it's sunday night movie. Check local listings for times near you. --lliB ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jun 82 5:26-PDT From: mclure at SRI-UNIX Subject: short vs. long SF fiction I've finally come to the depressing conclusion, after many frustrating tries at reading longer forms of SF, that very few SF authors have any reasonable control over novel-length fiction. Le Guin first comes to mind as one who demonstrates competence. Tiptree/Sheldon can write very fine novels but chooses to stay with short forms. I predict that Varley will mature and produce some major novel-length fiction in the next few years. His attempts so far have been unconvincing, in my opinion. Herbert, Heinlein, Niven, Farmer, Dick, and many others leave me rather flat. This is no revelation. I discard 80% of SF novels before finishing them due to lack of interest, poor writing, or more frequently lack of control by the author in the novel structures. The latter can display itself in various ways: plot inconsistent or loose, characters unconvincing and/or boring, a lack of overall purpose. Lately I have been moving more and more into mainstream fiction (Nabokov, Conrad, etc.) for authors who demonstrate complete control over the novel structure. In SF, I now limit myself almost exclusively to short fiction (short stories, novelettes, novellas). Hugo and Nebula collections seem worthwhile. I was quite impressed by the first two stories in Nebula 15: Jack Dann's "Camps" and George R. R. Martin's "Sandkings". Vernor Vinge's "True Names" in Binary Star #5(?) is another impressive story. Terry Carr's "The Best SF of the Year #nn" is almost always worthwhile. Less so are Don Wollheim's yearly collections . The John Campbell award nominees collection is sometimes interesting for sensing new talent. Stuart ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jun 1982 14:02:25-EDT From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX Subject: Re: State of the Art No, it only says bad things about the state of commercial SF; the Hugoes have generally been on the conservative side unless something new and really spectacular came out (SNOW QUEEN, DREAMSNAKE). Note that someone has guessed that one of the other two books could be New Sun III (Gene Wolfe---SWORD OF THE EXCRUCIATOR, or some such), which makes the situation worse in your view. Also, FRIDAY is not especially linked to an old set of characters---especially considering the primary link appeared in one novelet. [ This is in response to a submission that appeared in volume 5, issue 73, on the high probabilities of sequels winning Hugo awards. -- Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jul 1982 1256-EDT From: DD-B Reply-to: "DYER-BENNET at KL2137 c/o" Subject: SFL submission ( Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #19 ) (ihuxi!otto at Berkeley) Attempting to measure the percentage of the brain used by measuring the amount of oxygen used and relating that to firing rates of neurons seems to imply that a neuron is only being "used" when it is firing. Imagine how useful a computer would be if all its gates went high simultaneously!! ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 1982 2123-PDT From: T. C. Rindfleisch Subject: Xerox 1100 (Dolphin) User Group This is to announce formation of a network user group for Xerox 1100 workstations (Dolphins). Its purpose is to stimulate communication and sharing between computer science research groups that are using or are interested in these machines. It differs from the WORKS group in that it will focus on issues particular to Dolphins rather than on workstations in general. Xerox PARC and EOS people are included in the distribution list to facilitate communications about new developments, bugs, performance issues, etc. As with all network interest groups, however, this is *NOT* to be used as a vendor advertising vehicle. User Group Mechanics -- 1) Network Addresses: Dolphin-Users@SUMEX-AIM For mail distributed to the entire user group Dolphin-Requests@SUMEX-AIM For distribution list maintenance, i.e., additions, deletions, problems, etc. 2) Mail Handling: SUMEX-AIM will serve as the expansion point for routing messages to group members. We run XMAILR and so can route between most of the current internet community. 3) Administration: Initially, messages will be sent to the list as submitted. Depending on the volume of mail, content, etc., messages may be collected and digested in the future. I have assembled a list of known Dolphin users and liaisons from various sources for this initial announcement. Please pass the word on to others you think might be interested. Tom R. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jul 1982 1442-PDT From: FEATHER at USC-ISIF (Martin S. Feather) Subject: PacPuns What happens when two pacmen run into one another? imPact. ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, July 28, 1982 5:00PM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Subject: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The last message in this digest discusses some plot details in the movie The Thing. Some readers may not wish to read on. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 1982 1015-PDT From: WMARTIN at OFFICE-8 Subject: The Thing (Spoiler) Just saw "The Thing" with a bit of wariness after Siskel & Ebert's discussion of the "repulsiveness" of the effex on Sneak Previews. They're not that bad, unless you find blood, gore, and body parts especially unsettling. (I guess there is a kind of personality that really hates to be reminded of mortality and the fragility of flesh by seeing dismembered bodies or surgical procedures, and this would really get to them...) I always nitpick, and find it hard to adopt the "willing suspension of disbelief" you need to accept glitches or irrationalities in SF or fantasy films that would just stop the plot or make the outcome reverse if the logical action would be performed; that's why I usually hate sitcoms, which base most of their plots on silly misconceptions or someone trying to hide something needlessly. Anyway, re "The Thing": At the start, MacReady mentions that this is "the first week of winter"; however, there follows a series of night-and-day shots. In Antarctica, at this season, I thought there would be constant twilight for several weeks, with brief periods of low-on-the-horizon sunshine; deep night wouldn't arrive for some more weeks. Am I wrong in this? The film has some bright daytime, and black nights, and then everything is night, or takes place at night. Didn't seem right... Spoiler stuff following... If the Thing blood independently tries to survive, why would the parts of Thing bodies allow attack, like the thumb cuts? If Things as humans kept their original forms after converting another human into Thing, why did the dog Thing burst out of its body and destroy it? It could have converted individual dogs quietly and safely. (Yes, of course it was done that way to show a gruesome special effect; here, I'm nitpicking plot.) The Thing had some intelligence of its own; it started building the small spaceship and knew what the detonator box was and took it away before MacReady could set it off, yet it just reared up and growled at him instead of grabbing him and it let him throw the dynamite at it. And how did that set off the other dynamite emplacements? They were set for electrical detonation, and the single-stick explosion wouldn't have done anything to set them off... Major nitpick of all: if MacReady was right, and the Blair Thing just wanted to hide and freeze until rescue missions arrived next spring, why didn't it just run out into the ice and dig itself a hole, instead of hanging around in/under the base? (And when did Blair get converted, anyway? He was alone in the toolshed and too paranoid to let anyone get close to him until after he became a Thing!) Ah, so what... It's a vehicle for effects, and plot is secondary. Go see it for the disgustingness alone... Will Martin (at least I LOOK like him...) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 29-Jul cGrath Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #27 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 27 Jul 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 27 Today's Topics: SF Topics - Movie Reviews, SF Movies - THX 1138 & Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, Spoiler - Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 July 1982 05:30-EDT From: "Richard H.E. Smith, II" Subject: Anti-movies I'm not much of a movie-fan myself, (as jcwinterton in V6#1 and Schumacher in V6#8), so I appreciate the effort that goes into supplying digests that are more segregated by topic than in the past. That way, I can skip whole digests consisting of nothing but MORE comments on ET or TRON. Keep up the good work, Jim! Along this same line, I think everyone would approve of moving those long movie reviews, especially the ones plucked off the APwire, to the rear of the digest. That way, those who aren't interested in them, or who have already read them in their local newspaper, can skip them with greater ease. --dick smith ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jul 1982 05:21:24-PDT From: decvax!duke!uok!uokvax!mwm at Berkeley Subject: #$)*$%)(* Movie Reviews Will whoever/whatever is sending in those movie reviews from the press please CUT IT OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!! There is a lot of intelligent discussion/commentary on SFL, but those just don't qualify. They don't agree with me (take that any way you want to, you'll have it right), and I don't agree with them. They don't even agree with each other! These people give me the impression that they slept through the movie, then wrote something down to collect a paycheck. They miss the plot, the names & the dialog. SFL is wonderfull, but it's not worth wading through those things for. Please stop, so I can continue reading SFL with some pleasure. mike (decvax!duke!uok!uokvax!mwm@ucb) Electronic Junk Mail Doth Exist! mike [ As long as outside reviews are sent to the digest they will continue to be distributed. These reviews do serve a significant portion of the readership, and they are instructive, no matter how much any of us may disagree with them. However, it is also a matter of policy to give preference to contributions from the readership on a given topic, and to use other editing techniques to minimize the impact of any material of limited interest upon the entire readership (thus the recent alteration between "regular" and "movie" digests). -- Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jul 82 21:42:52-PST (Wed) From: Stephen Willson Subject: THX 1138 I realize that what I am about to say is a bit dated, but concerning the big discussion some time back about THX 1138 showing up again and again in Lucas' movies: In "American Graffiti", there is a car license plate which reads (fanfare please!) "THX 138". ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, July 29, 1982 12:45AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Subject: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The last messages in this digest discuss some plot details in the movie Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. Some readers may not wish to read on. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jul 1982 1849-PDT From: Henry W. Miller Subject: Flights of Fancy These are a few flights of fancy that have been in the back of my mind for a while. Thot I'd pass them along for comments, etc. WHAT IF V'ger had been thrown back in time, and landed back on earth in 1939, when the Lost Ark was opened? WHAT IF V'ger had met Nomad? WHAT IF V'ger had met the Planet Killer? WHAT IF V'ger had met the giant amoeba? WHAT IF Nomad had met the Planet Killer? WHAT IF Nomad had met the giant amoeba? (as you can see, there are many possibilities...) WHAT IF the Battlestar Galatica arrived at earth in the Star Trek time period? WHAT IF the Cylons joined forces with the Klingons? (Can you imagine the Galatica with warp nacelles, or the Enterprise with landing bays?) -HWM ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jul 1982 14:30:27-EDT From: Bob.Zimmermann at CMU-ZOG at CMU-10A Subject: Spock Must Die Come on now folks, the man (sic) is dead. What is the point in reincarnating him except for more bucks for Paramount and the Trekie souvenir pushers? R.I.P. R. Zimmermann (MI - CEC) ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jul 1982 14:37:57-EDT From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX Subject: STAR TREK character aging (non-spoiler) I didn't see the ST special you describe, but I recall McCoy as always being sort of craggy (maybe he just looked bad in the interview because of the combination of no makeup and TV lights?). The biggest problem with going back to ENTERPRISE-as-she-was is Scotty (James Doohan); he seems to have gone through the same sort of change that hit Jimmy Stewart and Frank Sinatra (50%+ greater weight, well-distributed), except that he's visibly pudgier in the movies than in the TV episodes. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 1982 09:05 CDT From: Johnston.DLOS at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #22 In regards to Shatner's acting ability: I agree that in the two Star Trek movies, he hasn't seemed quite right. It was like he was having to overplay the part to avoid being wooden. However, I have seen him live in a one-man show which he toured around several universities about five years ago, and he was very impressive. He didn't do any JTKirk, but rather a monologue comprised of stories about Galileo and such. In this show, he was properly animated, really entered into the parts he played, and gave an overall excellent performance. And if we get right down to it, Star Trek is fairly shallow anyway, although I certainly wouldn't miss a movie, and saw all the episodes in the series what seemed like dozens of times. It's FUN, not intellectual. The science in the whole series is too far off to be very intellectual, but it provides adventure, which everyone is finding out that they still crave. Rick ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jul 1982 1933-PDT From: Jon Solomon Subject: TWOK - Why Checkov survived the Ceti Eel Khan said that 20 of his crew members died because of that thing, and I suspect they did, and without proper medical attention, Checkov could have died too. McCoy was fortunately right there with his bag of salt shakers and toy tv (tricorder), and miniature bicycle pump (injection tool) full of all those modern healing things. Also Checkov had the whole Sick Bay worth of medical wonders to insure that he would have lived. It would seem to me that you would need all your physical health to survive Ceti Alpha V's climate now, and after that creature sapped all of your strength, and you became unconscious; it just left for a more ample food supply. Cheers, --Jsol p.s. you can also die of Snake Poisoning if you don't get medical attention shortly after you are bitten by a snake. It's not so unbelievable that Checkov survived where the genetically superior beings did not. ------------------------------ Date: 07/21/82 02:05:48 From: DMM@MIT-ML Subject: Re:Random comments about ST-TWOK & TRON. I maintain that the reason Chekhov was the one selected by the writers to beam down to Khan's planet was that traditionally, he was the one most often called upon to emit agonized screams. I seem to recall him screaming and displaying horrified expressions in more episodes of the series than any other regular in the show. Also, about spock's reincarnation... Remember, TWOK was brought to you by none other than Harve Bennett, the same one who miraculously reincarnated the bionic woman after she had been declared dead, just because it looked like the ratings would have dropped otherwise. Did it bother anyone else that in TRON not only was there no shield behind the orange that they were zapping, but that there was a CRT directly in the line of fire? Now really... Cheers -- DMM@MIT-ML ------------------------------ Date: 19 July 1982 09:46-EDT From: Richard Pavelle Who did Tyrell shoot (before himself) in the center of the planet? ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jul 1982 22:57:27-PDT From: npois!npoiv!harpo!decvax!duke!unc!mcnc!idis!mi-cec!rwg at From: Berkeley Subject: Why Kirk left shields down (slight spoiler) Recall from the novel of the first ST movie that the Enterprise crew was chosen for "limited mental agility;" Starfleet wanted to see if a shipload of dullards could handle the stress of a 5-year mission better than the honor graduates usually assigned to starships. Not only does this explain why the Enterprise shields were left down in TWOK, it explains certain statements from the series: "Captain, are they surrendering?" "The M-5 must be destroyed!" "...1 to the nth power..." (I forget what n was) ------------------------------ Date: Mon Jul 19 13:09:02 1982 From: decvax!watmath!bstempleton at Berkeley Subject: Why M5 did not know the prefix codes to disable ships. It would seem to me that these prefix codes are TOP TOP secret, and known only to commander rank officers such as Captain Spock and Admiral Kirk. They would have to be very secret, for anybody with knowledge of the codes could take over the whole of star fleet in days without a shot. They are very useful, though, since they can stop an enemy who has taken over a star fleet ship (like Khan). The important thing to remember is that the codes are NOT in the computer, and the computer probably isn't conscious of its own code. (You could not ask, "computer, what is your code", for example) M5 would not be given these babies for a test run. ------------------------------ Date: 18 July 1982 12:48-EDT From: James M. Turner Subject: Shields coming down sir! Why didn't M-5 use the magic code numbers? Because they aren't stored on-line, most likely. Better yet, they are stored on-line, but hidden somewhere (square root of the registration number of the ship times data of commission expressed as seconds past midnight, January 1...) Now, while its easy to remember the formula, and easy to work out in nothing flat given a computer with the data, there's no way a computer could figure it out without the formula. There's also probably no interconnection between the receiver and the ship's computer, so M-5 couldn't know it's there. James ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 30-Jul cGrath Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #28 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 30 Jul 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 28 Today's Topics: Administrivia - Transmission Difficulties, SF Fandom - Hugo Ballots, SF Books - This Darkening Universe & Mallworld & Life,The Universe,and Everything, SF TV - HHGttG, SF Topics - Stine Query Answered, Humor - Genderless Video Games, SF Movies - Destination Moon & The Secret of NIMH & TRON & Blade Runner & The Thing, Spoiler - The Thing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Friday, July 30, 1982 2:14PM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS-REQUEST at MIT-AI Subject: Transmission Difficulties This week MIT-AI had serious difficulties, forcing it down for a few days. Many readers probably did not get their digests as scheduled since AI is in their transmission path. More importantly, all submissions are routed via MIT-AI, and thus the digest itself was temporarily suspended until they began flowing once again. We are currently working on a more final resolution of this difficulty. Jim ------------------------------ Date: 07/30/82 1000-EDT From: THOKAR at LL Subject: Hugo Ballot Responses The Hugo ballot was distributed on the net over two months ago. At that time, it was indicated that ballots could be returned for counting. Since then, but four responses have been received, even though readers have had longer to vote than the members of the WorldCon. Given that the active readership is somewhere between 750 and 1000, and the total digest distribution is well over 2000, this is a much lower percentage of voters than those members of the WorldCon who vote. Therefore, unless a significant number of ballots are received by AUGUST 15, the results will not be tabulated. This gives readers a full month longer than WorldCon members had to vote. The trend so far indicates one of three things. 1)Readers are too busy to vote, 2)They don't care, or 3)They're all media freaks and don't know what a printed page looks like (with the exception of hard copies of this Digest.) Come on, gang. Let's get that vote in. Greg ------------------------------ Date: Thu Jul 22 02:27:40 1982 From: decvax!pur-ee!minn-ua!chris at Berkeley Subject: Out of Print Book I am trying to locate "This Darkening Universe" by Lloyd Biggle JR. It has only been published in hardcover by Doubleday SF, 1975. Anyone know where I can obtain a copy? I have been looking in used bookstores for months. All help appreciated... Chris Boylan University of Minnesota decvax!pur-ee!minn-ua!chris or ihnss!ihps3!stolaf!minn-ua!chris (612)376-5603 ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jul 82 0:51-PDT From: mclure at SRI-UNIX Subject: book review: MALLWORLD MALLWORLD, by Somtow Sucharitkul, Starblaze Editions $4.95 Sucharitkul was given the Campbell award at last year's Worldcon for best new writer. At that con, he mentioned an upcoming collection of his stories which would center on a gigantic shopping mall in space. I thought the idea was excellent and eagerly awaited the book. It is delightful! He has an uncanny facility for coining new words. There is much humor, lots of action, and three-dimensional characters. I see a lot of similarities between his technophilic humans and Varley's '8 Worlds' series and the characters that inhabit both. Mallworld is obsessed with consumerism, capitalism, and individualism but in a very grandiose manner. All the stories are told in first person by different people who have experiences in Mallworld. Dialogue is good. Overall, I found this to be an impressive collection. He's definitely someone to watch for. Stuart ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jul 1982 at 0954-CDT From: ables at UTEXAS-11 (King Ables) Subject: HHGthG book #3 When Douglas Adams was here in Austin last spring to lecture on his two books (which actually consisted more of reading passages than anything, there was a short question-answer period, but not nearly long enough) he said he was going next (after his lecture tour) to Los Angeles to work with ABC TV on their new fall version of his stories, then to New York quickly and then back to England to finish the third book, "Life, The Universe, and Everything," which at that time was to come out sometime next year (early 83?). Since I have heard the ABC version of HHGttG as fallen by the wayside (sob!) I assume he is back finishing the book now, I think he said he was about half way through. Hopefully we won't have to wait much longer. -ka ------------------------------ Date: 22-Jul-1982 From: MIRIAM HARVEY AT BERGIL Reply-to: "MIRIAM HARVEY AT BERGIL c/o" Subject: Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy In my TV GUIDE for the week ending July 15th, on that Friday at 10:00 on channel WMNE (a Public station in Maine) the first episode of HHGTTG was shown. It was also shown the next day at 4:00 on the same station. Alas, I now get to read about HHGTTG being shown every week, but cannot see it. While WMNE is listed in my TV GUIDE, it can't be received in it. Oh the frustration. It is at least a sign/hope of the possibility of seeing the British show of HHGTTG before the Americans get a hold of it and muck it up in their usual way. ------------------------------ Date: "28-JUL-1982 14:40 " From: GALAXY~OSTROWSKY AT MAIL-11 AT R2ME2 Reply-to: "GALAXY~OSTROWSKY AT MAIL-11 AT R2ME2 c/o" Subject: Hitch-Hiker's Guide Inspired by the news here of the TV show's appearance on U.S. public television stations, I called the programming department of WGBH-TV. The woman I spoke with indicated that they didn't have the show scheduled for the next couple of months, but that a couple of other people had already called in, requesting it, and she would pass the word along to the powers that be at the station. If you live in the Boston area and want to see the show, you should pick up the phone and harass the station. A few hundred calls will give them something to think about. --Jonathan Ostrowsky ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jul 1982 17:41:08-EDT From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX Subject: G. Harry Stine who wrote SHUTTLE DOWN (as Lee Correy) and has been described as "everyone's favorite futurist" (he's \my/ favorite example of an engineer turned fruitcake), is indeed the one-time godfather of model rocketry. He used to be at White Sands and was able to adapt some of his knowledge and a lot of the safe practices to cardboard and balsa. ------------------------------ Date: 28 July 1982 12:26 mst From: Lippard at PCO-MULTICS (James J. Lippard) Reply-to: Lippard%PCO-Multics at MIT-MULTICS Subject: Re: G. Harry Stine I was also heavily involved in model rocketry, and was a member of the Valley of the Sun section of the National Association of Rocketry, the section of which Mr. Stine is (or was, anyway) a leader. He used to work for NASA, now he mostly writes, science fact as G. Harry Stine, science fiction under the name Lee Corey. He also occasionally writes for Omni and Analog. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jul 1982 1738-PDT From: Henry W. Miller Subject: PAC humour What does a PACMAN do in the great outdoors? Why, he goes back-pacing... -HWM ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jul 1982 10:46:02-EDT From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX Subject: scientific consultant on DESTINATION MOON was none other than Robert A. Heinlein, who was still in his mental prime at that time; he had also majored (to the extent that anyone at USNA "majors" in anything other than controlled slaughter) in engineering at Annapolis. His books of the 40's and 50's usually reflected the best technical knowledge then available (I wonder whether anyone has considered republishing BEYOND THIS HORIZON and changing all the mentions of 48 chromosomes to 46?). [ Thanks also to Alan Katz (KATZ at USC-ISIF) and Bob Pendleton (Pendleton at UTAH-20) for answering this query. -- Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 29 July 1982 22:31-EDT From: Charles F. Von Rospach Subject: The Secret of NIMH I think I might have said this once before, but Disney Studios didn't LET Bluth go. He went, and took about half of the Disney animation department with him. Bluth, who is one of the OLD time Disney people (he worked with Walt on Snow White), refused to put up with the MBA's and the yes-men that have invaded Disney since Walt's death to continue putting out the drivel they have been producing in Walt's name all this time. I don't blame him, and I hope that Disney Studio's takes a long and close look at their product Vs. Bluths and the appropriate reviews (I can't think of a published review that didn't either explicitely say 'This is what Disney should make' or heavily imply it. chuck ------------------------------ Date: 29 July 1982 00:37-EDT From: Charles F. Von Rospach Subject: TRON as Disney allegory As a person who did work within the Disney organization for four years, if there is an allegory to the actual 'takeover', it is unconscious and/or a great secret from the Disney management. They would NEVER allow a movie out that might imply they weren't doing things in the way the great God Walter intended (which I think says it all about the 'takeover' itself. Walt was NEVER afraid of critisicm. He just never paid any attention). The Biggest problem with Disney studios today is not that they are not doing things Walts way, they are still trying to do it his way. They have not changed as the times changed (which Walt was very good at), and they are mostly MBA types that simply don't have the vision that Walt did. Chuck ------------------------------ Date: 28 July 1982 20:42-EDT (Wednesday) From: Mijjil (Matthew J. Lecin) Subject: Blade Runner anachronism (non-spoiler) [15 Jul 1982, JIM at Subject: RAND-UNIX] Obvious Anachronism: Deckard has an obvious smallpox vaccination mark. I dunno. I get the impression that Deckard is in his middle to late 30's, if not OLDER. That would make his youth in the late 1980's or early 1990's. Are we going to stop vaccinating in the next ten years? ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jul 1982 16:18:21-EDT From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX Subject: re BLADE RUNNER anachronism (non-spoiler) I don't consider a smallpox vaccination mark to be an anachronism; the last I heard, the final stages in the eradication of smallpox were proving to be unexpectedly difficult, thanks to (among other things) the continual flareups between Ethiopia and Somalia. ------------------------------ Date: Friday, July 30, 1982 2:14PM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Subject: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The last messages in this digest discuss some plot details in the movie The Thing. Some readers may not wish to read on. ------------------------------ Date: 29 July 1982 10:37-EDT (Thursday) From: David H. Kaufman Subject: The Thing Just read WMARTIN's review of The Thing. This sounds *very* much like a story I read a while back (3, 4 years?) in one of the best Science Fiction collections, my copy of which has since disappeared. Is The Thing based on a story? My memory of the plot is that an (ant)arctic expedition digs up the (frozen) body of an alien space traveller, and brings it back to their camp where they thaw it out and it comes alive, begins changing shape and taking over other animals, humans, etc. In the end, they catch all the humanoid things by taking blood samples which, now that they are separate from the human-thing, try to avoid a hot needle in the test tube . . . . Does anyone remember title and/or author? Dave Kaufman [ The short story you are thinking about is "Who Goes There?", by John W Campbell. -- Jim ] ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 30-Jul cGrath Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #29 Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 31 Jul 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 29 Today's Topics: Administrivia - Opinions from SU-LOTS, SF Topics - Opinions from SU-LOTS ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Friday, July 30, 1982 2:14PM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS-REQUEST at MIT-AI Subject: Opinions from SU-LOTS The following material is from the BBoard at SU-LOTS, and was submitted by Stuart M. Cracraft (mclure at SRI-UNIX). It was thought to be of interest to the readership. Since LOTS is not on the net, responses cannot be made to the original submitters - however, people should feel free to discuss the topics and issues raised. Jim ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 1982 1435-PDT From: M.MELKAR at SU-LOTS Subject: science fiction novels, 112 novels rated. The following is a list of Sci-Fi novels that I've read and rated. The very fact that I've read so much sci-fi to some extent disqualifies me as an acceptable judge since my tastes are now pretty jaded. Here goes anyhow: Poul Anderson The Man Who Counts A- Satan's Worlll Drag You Under A+ Midnight at the Well of Souls B+ Exiles at theWell of Souls B The Web of the Chozen C Lilith: A Snake in the Grass A- Cerberus: A Wolf in the Fold A- Arthur C. Clarke Rendezvous with Rama A+ 2001: Space Odyssey B Childhood's End B+ The City and the Stars A- Hal Clement Mission of Gravity B+ Star Light B Cicyle of Fire B+ Needle B David Dvorkin The Children of Shiny Moutain B Philip Jose Farmer The Maker of Universes A- The Gates of Creation B A Private Cosmos B Behind the Walls of Terra B The Lavalite World B The Stone God Awakens B To Yours Scattered Bodies Go A The Fabulous Riverboat A- Dark Design B The Magic Labyrinth B Robert L. Forward Dragon's Egg B Donald F. Glut The Empire Strikes Back C+ Stephen Goldin And not Make Dreams Your Master A Assault on the Gods B+ The Eternity Brigade B Mind Flight B A World CAlled Solitude A+ Joe Haldeman All My Sins Remembered A- Mind Bridge A+ Worlds C+ Forever War A+ Harry Harrison The Lifeship B+ The Stainless Steel Rat B+ Death World B Make Room, Make Room B Frank Herbert Dune A+ Dune Messiah B- Children of Dune C- Whipping Star C The Eyes of Heisenberg C Stephen Leigh Slow Fall to Dawn B+ David Lindsay A Voyage to Arcturus A+ Haunted Woman A+ Barry B. Longyear Manifest Destiny A- Circus World B+ Elephant Song B- City of Baraboo B+ George Lucas (I'm rating the book not the movie) Star Wars C+ Ann McCaffrey Decision at Doona B Larry Niven Ringworld A+ Ringworld Engineers A Inferno A+ World of Ptaavs B Protector B The Flying Sorcerers B Alexei Panshin Star Well A+ Thurb Revolution A Masque World A Rite of Passage A+ Robert Sheckley Immortality, Inc. B The Status Civilization B+ Robert Silverberg The Book of Skulls A Hawksbill Station B+ Lord Valentines Castle A- The Man in the Maze A+ Nightwing A+ A Time of Changes B+ The Time Hopper B The Seed of Earth C+ Tower of Glass B+ Up the Line B Clifford D. Simak Cemetery World B Shakespeare's Planet B Way Station A+ Why Call Them Back From Heaven B William Tedford Silent Galaxy B+ Walter Tevis Mockingbird A- A. E. Van Vogt The Weapons Shops of Isher B+ The Weapon Makers B The Players of Null-a B Slan B Jack Vance Emphyrio A- Star King B- The Killing Machine B- The Palace of Love B- The Face B- The Book of Dreams B- The Languages of Pao A- The Last Castle A City of the Chasche B The Dirdir B+ Servants of the Wankh B The Pnume B- Maske:Thaery B Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. Slaughterhose-Five B+ Cat's Cradle A- Breakfast of Champions B Sirens of Titan A John Varley Titan A- Wizard B+ This completes the first list. If there is sufficient interest I can probably generate another list of about 50 to 100 titles. For those that are interested my favorite authors in order of preference: Robert Silverberg Larry Niven Joe Haldeman Stephen Goldin The ratings for Star Wars, Empire Stikes Back, etc. are for the books and not for the movies connected with those titles. Generally speaking movie books are bad. I would appreciate receiving mail about novels that I have not rated so I can read them and include them in the data base. I am also of the opinion that the movie Blade Runner is the best Sci-Fi flick of the summer. G. Allen ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jul 1982 1339-PDT From: M.MELKAR at SU-LOTS Subject: More Science Fiction Novels Rated It has been brought to my attention that some significant authors were not rated in my previous novel listing. Although this was not intentional, I suspect there was a subconscious wish to avoid the more famous authors, (everybody has their own opinions about them already). To avoid repetition of comments made already I shall rate these authors anyway: Issac Asimov Foundation Trilogy A+ The Gods Themselves C Ray Bradbury Fahrenheit 451 B+ The Martian Chronicles B Illustrated Man B- Robert A. Heinlein Stranger in a Strange Land A+ Time Enough for Love A The Moon is a Harsh Mistress B+ Citizen of the Galaxy A- Starship Trooper B Ursula LeGuin The Dispossessed A The Left Hand of Darkness B+ Frederik Pohl Man Plus C+ The Space Merchants A- Gateway A+ Jem B- A difficulty represented by the old time authors like Vern, Wells, Asimov, etc. is that they have become "stylisticly obsolete". Their work when it originally appeared was the best rating A+, but later authors used their work as a basis for new novels, with the result that the old works would look old fashion or cliche. Another problem with Sci-Fi is that some authors tend to become ridiculously overrated. I do not fully understand the mechanism of this but I suspect it has something to do with which author the reader used as his introduction to Sci-Fi. Larry Niven is my introducing author so I've been very partial towards him. I think alot of people started with Ray Bradbury, who in my opinion is a very mundane author, which has resulted in his excessive popularity. Ursula LeGuin is a special case. She is a good author, perhaps a very good author, but certainly not an excellent author. I would put her in the same class as Philip Jose Farmer or John Varley. I feel she is overrated largely because she is one of the few good female science fiction authors and her writings tend to be on subjects that are of social or political interest. Robert A. Heinlein is "Mr. Science Fiction". His excellence as an author can not be contested. However, I strongly disagree with much of his social and political views. His work "Starship Trooper" could have been written by Heinrich Himmler, it comes across as so right wing. His one dimensional social views as manifested in the character Lazarus Long leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I can see Lazarus Long being a member of the John Birch Society and voting for Ronald Reagan. I would appreciate receiving mail on science fiction and having further discussion on this subject. G. Allen ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 1982 2054-PDT From: Dan Newell Subject: Grade inflation While I agreed with a lot of your recommendations (and disagreed with a few) I noticed that you tended to treat a C grade for a novel as damning. I was under the impression (at least before I came to Stanford) that C's were average, B's very good, and A's outstanding. By limiting yourself to only A's and B's, you fail to utilize the full scale of grades so that we may have a better idea of the relative rankings. This tendency to escalate grades (scores, etc...) has reached insane heights. When was the last time you saw a gymnast get lower than 9.8 without tripping over their leotards and falling on their butts. Maybe we should fight back with realistic sci-fi ratings. On the other hand, if your ratings were part of some global rating scheme that we cannot see at the moment (like ratings of all novels (with Harlequins and Dell Crossword Books rating F-)) then you may ignore my chicken scratches. I for one enjoyed the review and will undoubtably use some of your ratings to go out and look for something new to read. Dan ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 4-Aug cGrath Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #30 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 1 Aug 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 30 Today's Topics: SF Fandom - Comicon/Panopticon West, Spoiler - Dr Who ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21-JUL-1982 13:59 From: TSC::COORS::VICKREY Reply-to: "TSC::COORS::VICKREY c/o" Subject: Convention Report - Comicon/Panopticon West, Chicago DOCTOR WHO IS GOING PREPPIE! or Chicago: Steam Bath '82 I attended Comicon/Panopticon West in Chicago last weekend, and I thought I'd report back on what happened. For those of you who don't know (or care), Panopticon is the annual Dr Who convention in Great Britain; Panopticon West is its North American counterpart. The guests on the Dr Who side were John Nathan-Turner, (currently the producer of Dr Who), Sarah Sutton (who plays the Doctor's companion Nyssa), Anthony Ainley (who plays the Master), and Terry Nation (inventor of the Daleks). The con had Dr Who videotapes, including the 3 Peter Davison serials Castrovalva, Black Orchid, and Earthshock, some classic Jon Pertwee serials, and a couple of Tom Baker's. Since it was also a comic book convention, there were guests from the comic book industry, but I didn't attend that part. Some news from the question & answer session with the Dr Who guests: World-Life (that's what it sounded like, anyway) has signed up 20 American markets to broadcast the first three Davison years; the first year to start in January '83, the second in March or April '83, and the third in March or April '84. They gave the Doctor (and us) a 20th birthday cake to celebrate. The twentieth anniversary special is still being worked on, but they plan to bring back some old companions next year. So far the only one confirmed is the Brigadier. Will K-9 come back? Not on Dr Who. Possibly a spin-off. Will the Doctor ever have a black companion? "Interesting that you should ask that," Nathan-Turner said. "Stay tuned." Was the Chameleon Circuit fixed in Logopolis? Stay tuned. Will their be more Daleks? Stay tuned. How come a certain villain in Earthshock (see spoiler for details) was able to fire a weapon inside the TARDIS when it's been long established that weapons do not fire inside the TARDIS? Stay tuned. (Nathan-Turner wasn't saying much.) The guests had two panels, and two autograph sessions. They also judged the masquerade (Best of Show was a life-size working Dalek, who got a standing ovation). The only other Dr Who events were a trivia contest and a play (Doctor Who and the Day and Night of the Terror of the Return for the Revenge of the Master, or What Would Have Happened If The BBC Had Brought In Freddy Frieberger To Produce Dr Who). These were the highlights. For the lowlights. Bear in mind that this is the OFFICIAL Dr Who convention for the North American continent. The hotel (the Americana-Congress) had air-conditioning. I know; I found an air-conditioner, put my hand over the vent, and felt a stirring of air strong enough to push something as heavy as a (very) small feather. If you were further than 3 inches from an air- conditioning vent, you steamed. Literally. The hall outside the video room stayed at about 100 degrees far into the night. Very early on a line of demarcation was set. On one side, the comic book collectors, who have been coming to this convention for six years and liked it the way it was. On the other side, the Dr Who fans, who came to see Dr Who tapes, talk to the Dr Who guests, and buy Dr Who merchandise. The word floating around the con was that there were 700 3-day pre- registrations (though somebody told me that an ad in Variety put the number at 4000). If you didn't pre-register, you could buy one-day passes at the door. For some strange reason, most of the Dr Who fans attending wanted to see the Davison serials! (Can you imagine? The con staff obviously couldn't.) The con had one (!) video room, with 450 seats. The line for the video room was loooong; the corridor for the video room was short and narrow. The con staff decided they'd better do something. So they decided to mark our tickets. Right. First it was as you went in, and they would show all three Davisons and you would stay there; then it was for each serial, and they would show the same serial twice, clearing the room each time so the other batch could get in; then they decided to number each mark so that when they hit 450 they could say "Sorry, full up"; then (grrrrrrr) . . . . Anyway, with persistence and a high tolerance for a gymnasium atmosphere you could get in on Friday (during Black Orchid a pipe burst and poured water down the back wall of the video room. Nobody moved.). Saturday, however . . . . Convention registration opened at 10; by 9 the line was already stretching downstairs to the main entrance. By 11 they were announcing on the PA that possession of a one-day ticket did not guarantee you would get in to the video room to see the Dr Who tapes or the big ballroom to see the Dr Who panel and masquerade. By 12 they closed registration for the day. The dealer's rooms swarmed with less than gruntled Dr Who fans. (They couldn't even buy much as the really neat stuff sold out Friday.) Every vending machine in the hotel was emptied early (I think they were refilled once a day); ice cost a quarter a bucket and most ice machines went quickly out of order and stayed that way. The autograph session that afternoon was in a room with only one door - the line going out had to struggle past the line going in and the guests (they were terrific people) were in there for an hour and a half, taking an involuntary sauna. By Sunday I think the word got out - there did not seem to be so many people. The video room was still SRO; by the last show, the con staff had come up with the final policy - get your ticket numbered, then get the hell off that floor and stay off until showtime or we'll take your ticket away. (If this sounds ridiculously hostile, believe me, they were.) The dealers began to pack; the air-conditioning made a minor comeback and got the temperature down to 95; the guests did another autograph session (marvelous people), the trivia contest took place, and the comic book dealers began marking their stuff down to try to move it. Next Year - Columbus, Ohio. (Yes, the hallmark of a true fan is her masochism.) I talked to the organizers for that one and was somewhat encouraged. For one thing, the people who organized this con won't be involved (hooray!). Next year they are promising: 1) working air-conditioning; 2) free ice; 3) more than one video room; 4) limited registration; 5) no comic books. What the hay. ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, August 4, 1982 3:12PM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Subject: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The last messages in this digest discuss some plot details in the TV series Dr. Who. Some readers may not wish to read on. ------------------------------ Date: 21-JUL-1982 14:02 From: TSC::COORS::VICKREY Reply-to: "TSC::COORS::VICKREY c/o" Subject: Dr Who Spoiler ****SPOILER****SPOILER****SPOILER****SPOILER****SPOILER****SPOILER**** Be warned - this submission gives away details from the newest (19th) season of Dr Who, as learned at Panopticon West. The audience, having made it into the video room, was in a mood to enjoy. We applauded: 1) the opening music; 2) the closing music; 3) John Nathan-Turner's credit as producer; 4) the materialization of the TARDIS; 5) the de-materialization of the TARDIS; 6) the appearance of the Doctor; 7) the re-appearance of the Master; 8) the re-appearance of the Cybermen; etc. The only negative reaction came in Castrovalva: when the Doctor unraveled his scarf, there was a joint and heart-felt "Oh nooooooo". Castrovalva, the first serial of the new season, concerns the Doctor's troubles with his newest regeneration. This is the third of the trilogy of stories concerning the return of the Master (The Keeper of Traken and Logopolis being the first two). The Doctor troubles with this regeneration (enabling Peter Davison to give instantly recognizable impressions of his four predecessors) force him to go to Castrovalva for convalescence. The Master kidnaps Adric to make use of his mathematical abilities to entrap the Doctor there. The Doctor, who is also suffering memory loss, knows that one of his companions is missing, but can't remember who it is. Castrovalva turns out to be a lair of the Master, and escape is very difficult. Sometime between Castrovalva and Black Orchid the Doctor loses his sonic screwdriver. Black Orchid, the fifth serial, is a nice, quiet little 2-parter that just sorta sits there. It takes the form of the English-country- house-party-whodunnit-and-what-is-that-thing-locked-up-in-the-attic- anyway? The highlights of this one are the Doctor making a big score at cricket, Tegan doing the Charleston, and the entire cast making a grand entrance in a Rolls Silver Ghost. Earthshock, the sixth serial, has already (and deservedly) become a classic. This one involves the return of the Cybermen (and gives us flashbacks to the three previous Doctors that the Cybermen dealt with). A very interesting and understated detail in this one was the total lack of gender discrimination among the Earthlings. The CO of the troop of soldiers was a man, the no-nonsense sergeant was a woman, and both the captain and exec of the freighter were also women. The mix in both the troops and the crew of the freighter was very even. The Cybermen attempt to invade the Earth (again) and come frighteningly close this time, smuggling themselves in on a freighter. When the Doctor foils that plan they turn the ship into a missile on a collision course with Earth and force the Doctor to take them out in the TARDIS, leaving Adric behind on the freighter. The Doctor, Tegan, and Nyssa manage to overcome the Cybermen, but in the process the Cybermen weapons damage the TARDIS (yes, weapons aren't supposed to work inside the TARDIS; this is supposed to be explained in a later show) and they are unable to go and pick up Adric. Adric works out the code to deactivate the ship, but takes the freighter hopping back through time in the process. A damaged Cyberman left behind destroys the controls before Adric can key in the final deactivation sequence. The freighter crashes into the Earth at the time of the dinosaurs with Adric still aboard. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 5-Aug cGrath Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #31 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 2 Aug 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 31 Today's Topics: SF Lovers - WorldCon Party, SF Magazines - Foundation: The Review of Science Fiction, SF Books - Alongside Night & Lensmen Series, SF TV - HHGttG, SF Movies - Destination Moon & ET: The Extra-Terrestrial, SF Topics - Brain Use & Holographic Memory, Humor - Genderless Video Games, Spoiler - ET: The Extra-Terrestrial ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 6 Jul 1982 2150-CDT From: ZELLICH at OFFICE-3 Subject: SFL WorldCon party The time has come, boys and girls, to think of the timing and logistics for an SFL party at the biggie: Chicon IV. We have a quad at the Hyatt, and are hereby volunteering to host the get-together; anybody wanting to attend, please respond directly to me (ZELLICH@OFFICE-3) and not to the list. We need to know preferences for party time (\not/ during the masquerade or GoH speeches/awards ceremony) and preferably how many plan to attend (gotta provide the right number of plastic cups, napkins, etc.). If people want us to provide food and drink for them, we're willing to do it within reasonable volumes (very limited car space driving up from St. Louis) and with reasonable guarantees that those people will remember to reimburse us for their fair share; mainly, though, it's gotta be a BYOB & Munchies party. Anyone having prior experience at putting such a conclave together, and knowing of other considerations (do we need to bother with who is bringing what munchies, liquids, etc.?), please speak up. After a reasonable amount of time, I'll get back to the subgroup that responds to this message. Cheers, Rich ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jul 82 20:12-PDT From: mclure at SRI-UNIX Subject: Foundation: The Review of Science Fiction In Nicholls' Science Fiction Encyclopedia in the section describing the Foundation magazine published in Britain, he mentions that the first eight issues were projected for publication in 1978. Anyone know if such a compilation exists or how to subscribe to the magazine? Stuart ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jul 1982 1748-EDT From: JoSH Subject: new "hard" sf Is there some law that libertarian science-fiction writers have to have the middle name "Neil"? Believe it or not, that's what first caught my eye on the cover of "Alongside Night", by J. Neil Schulman. I bought it on the recommendation of Jerry Pournelle (to "anyone interested in freedom") on the cover, and then realized what it was. What it is is a good first novel. Although I was unable to read it with an unbiased eye, I believe it stands quite well on its own as an adventure novel. Indeed, though one would expect any awkwardnesses to stem from forced references to his libertarian-inspired background scheme, they don't: about the worst writing I can find is where he describes the Weaver stance twice, making it somewhat distracting the second time around. Indeed, libertarian references can be marvelously subtle: at one point the protagonist is given a sample cigarette by the proprietor of a cannabis shop--on the cigarette is embossed a small gold dollar sign. And it is entirely believable that the proprietor would have done that with full knowledge of his antecedents, when you do catch the reference. So even taken straight at face value, this is better than average fare. Though not as spellbinding as Heinlein, it would be enjoyed by anyone who liked early Heinlein. But, like J.P., I would especially recommend this one to "anyone interested in freedom". Its working out of the principles of an "anarcho-propertarian" organization which is still surrounded by a hostile State is more firmly grounded in reality than some libertarian writing, which seems to assume that the State has to vanish for any of this stuff to work. This is the best book I've read this year. --JoSH ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 1982 1448-EDT From: DD-B Reply-to: "DD-B c/o" Subject: SFL submission ( Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #22 ) (Henry W. Miller ) For Lensman sticklers, or people who only buy parts of series, the chronological order of the books is \Triplanetary/, \First Lensman/, \Galactic Patrol/, \Gray Lensman/, \Second Stage Lensmen/, \Children of the Lens/. \The Vortex Blaster/ takes place sometime after \Galactic Patrol/, and probably before the end of \Children of the Lens/, but the exact sequence isn't important since it's a totally unconnected story set in the same universe, with just enough overlapping background to make some sort of stab at placing its date. ------------------------------ Date: Wed Aug 4 01:27:04 1982 From: decvax!watmath!bstempleton at Berkeley Subject: More on the Hitch-Hiker's guide BBC-TV version Well, I have now seen 4 episodes of the Guide, and I must admit that the quality of the fourth was a bit above that of the second and third. It is still not that great. I think I would still suggest to anybody that they hear the radio series first. The people making this show are just not making use of the visual medium for comedy. This is too bad, because the guide IS comedy. Essentially we get radio actors delivering radio lines with some special effects in the background. We get Mark Wing-Davy, who blatantly cannot act on television, doing the role of Zephod. I get the impression that many of his lines required multiple takes, for his stuff seems to be delivered in edited-in clips. Slartibartfarst (sp?) was fairly good in episode 4, and the two philosophers who come to complain about Deep Thought were quite good. Deep Thought itself was visually pretty boring and actually bothersome to look at. I would be interested in comments from people who see the TV version first, and then hear the radio one or read the book. I told my brother to see it, and he watched the second and third episodes. His comments were that the material was great, but what was behind it was useless. One might as well turn off the video and listen, but even then the timing was not great. He has yet to hear the radio series, so I can't get any comment. One thing that was interesting: I took a copy of the first episode recorded in 6 hour mode on my VTR over for him to watch. We played it on his VTR which is old and only has a 4 hour mode. It was thus played with a speedup of around 25-50%. (hard to judge). Anyway, he thought the timing was much better this way. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jul 1982 1448-EDT From: Bob Krovetz Subject: HHGttG in Washington D.C. The program manager for the PBS station in Washington says the Hitchhikers Guide will be aired sometime in the Fall. -bob ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 1982 13:39 EDT From: Birnbaum.HENR at PARC-MAXC Subject: Destination Moon Sources In response to Nathaniel Borenstein's query from SFL #26, Destination Moon was largely due to R.A.Heinlein; the movie was a loosely adapted takeoff from Rocket Ship Galileo. DaveB ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 28 July 1982 14:08-PDT From: KDO at SRI-KL Subject: Brain Use / Holographic Memory There is a common misconception that making a hologram smaller (by cutting it) gives you a smaller hologram which is blurry. No! Cutting a hologram just reduces the window through which the image can be seen. As I understand a hologram has information for the view of the object from each direction. If you cut out part of it you lose information. Checking how much of the brain is used by seeing which neurons fire is like seeing how much of your computer memory is used by counting the set bits! Ken ------------------------------ Date: 22-Jul-82 20:29:48 PDT (Thursday) From: Newman.es at PARC-MAXC Subject: Genderless video games When a city council tries to ban video games, will arcade operators organize a Pac-Man Political Action Committee (Pac-PAC) ? /Ron ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, August 5, 1982 12:53AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Subject: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The last message in this digest discuss some plot details in the movie ET: The Extra-Terrestrial. Some readers may not wish to read on. ------------------------------ Date: Sun Aug 1 01:43:23 1982 From: decvax!watmath!bstempleton at Berkeley Subject: ET SPOILER I was surprised by the scene in ET where the scientists attempt to revive ET by human methods. I was not surprised from a standpoint of disappointment with the movie, however. I was so involved with the scene at the time that my reaction was "Oh no, they're not going to try THAT are they!" It seemed like something a team in panic might do. After all, the ET was known to have DNA and other similarities to our life forms. When the heart stopped, they were (mistakenly) convinced that the ET had had the biscuit, and any further moves could do no harm although they might do some good. ------------------------------ Date: 08/02/82 0954-EDT From: KG Heinemann (SORCEROR at LL) Subject: Medical Sequences in "E.T."; Reply to Michael First While agreeing with Michael First's arguments concerning the futility of applying our medical technology to treat E.T. (SFL Digest V.6, #25), I wish to present a different interpretation of the role which those sequences play in the film. To anyone familiar with Carl Sagan's statements that real extraterrestrial organisms probably will be stranger than any of our speculations, it should be obvious that the medical efforts depicted in the film probably will fail. I believe that Mr. Speilberg shares this perception of the situation, and that these scenes are a deliberate vehicle for the film's attitude, rather than inept plotting. The futile medical procedures symbolize and demonstrate the arrogance, pomposity, and insensitivity of the adult culture. Eliot protests so stridently because he knows that this treatment won't work, and is only causing pain and possibly making E.T.'s condition worse. The adults are oblivious to the pointless suffering which the medics inflict, because they are concerned only with the importance of the scientific discovery and the tangible benefits which might result from contact with an alien civilization. Mr. Speilberg even alludes to the Crucifixion and Resurrection, through the imagery of E.T.'s revival ("Forgive them, Father, they know not what they do"). I am reminded of similar developments which occur in "The Man Who Fell to Earth". In fact, "The Man Who Fell to Earth", and "E.T." tell very similar stories, except that the emotional intimacy between human and alien occurs on an adult level, in the former. Yes, this interpretation takes a pessimistic view of the ethical abilities of scientists and technicians, when confronted with truly significant events. It represents my interpretation of Mr. Speilberg's position, not my own. I would like to believe that we will approach extrat-terrestrial life with a proper measure of humility in the face of our possible ignorance, and respect for the individuality and independence of all sentient organisms. Enjoy, Karl Heinemann ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 7-Aug cGrath Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #32 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI Schauble.Multics at MIT-MULTICS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 3 Aug 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 32 Today's Topics: Administrivia - Opinions from SU-LOTS, SF Topics - Opinions from SU-LOTS & Rating Books, SF Books - The Magic Goes Away & Creatures of Light and Darkness & Doorways in the Sand & The House in November & Night of Delusions & The Avatar & The Day of Their Return & The Corridors of Time & Brain Wave ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Saturday, August 7, 1982 7:32AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS-REQUEST at MIT-AI Subject: Opinions from SU-LOTS As some of you have noticed, the list of Science Fiction novels submitted by had a transcription error. In particular, the following: Poul Anderson The Man Who Counts A- Satan's Worlll Drag You Under A+ Midnight at the Well of Souls B+ Exiles at theWell of Souls B The Web of the Chozen C Lilith: A Snake in the Grass A- Cerberus: A Wolf in the Fold A- Arthur C. Clarke should be replaced by: Poul Anderson The Man Who Counts A- Satan's World A Shield C The Trouble Twisters B+ The Enemy Stars C+ David Bear Keeping Time B Gregg Bear Strength of Stones B+ Jack L. Chalker And the Devil Will Drag You Under A+ Midnight at the Well of Souls B+ Exiles at theWell of Souls B The Web of the Chozen C Lilith: A Snake in the Grass A- Cerberus: A Wolf in the Fold A- Arthur C. Clarke in the list. Jim ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 1982 22:35:39 EDT (Wednesday) From: John Redford Subject: ratings of SF novels I was a little startled to see that Poul Anderson wrote Jack Chalker's novels "Midnight at the Well of Souls" and "Exile at the Well of Souls", plus others that I wasn't too sure about. I guess all these sci-fi (or as Pournelle would call them, "skiffy") books become alike after a while. Alike enough so that it's possible to rate them on a one-dimensional scale. A physics exercise like "Dragon's Egg" by Forward and a Wodehousish comedy like Panshin's "Masque World" get the same standards applied to them. But hey, they all take place in space, right? They've all got aliens, right? As Allen himself says, it's pretty easy to become jaded by this sci-fi stuff. I'm sorry if I'm unfairly maligning your tastes, but it's foolish to give books classroom grades. In a classroom everyone is studying the same subject, but what is the subject of science fiction? How can you say that one SF novel performs better than another? Better in what? Character? Plot? Theme? Do good characters count for more points than, say, scientific accuracy? It's pointless to argue about these things. Describe each book as it comes. Say that you were really struck by the idea behind the novel (and summarize that idea), but thought the plot moved slowly. Or that you fell completely into the world of the characters, but were a little horrified by it when you thought about it afterwards. Or that this book was a complete disaster and should crumble into oblivion as fast as its acidic paper will take it. Some books ARE better than others, but a rating system tells more about the rater than the ratees. John Redford PS Issac Asimov, whose last SF book came out in 1972, would be disgruntled to find himself lumped in as an old-timer with Jules Verne. Verne died in 1905. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Aug 1982 0609-EDT From: James M. Turner Subject: LOTS report card He's read one McCaffrey, Decision at Doona, and gave it a B?!! Someone get this man some Pern, quickly! (BTW, the Thursday Boston Globe had an excellent full-page article on new trends in SF.) James ------------------------------ Date: 3 Aug 1982 10:39 PDT From: Wedekind.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: science fiction novels, 112 novels rated Thanks a lot for the rating list - very useful! I was puzzled by one thing, though - your "favorite authors" list omits Alexei Panshin and David Lindsay, who have the highest GPA's by far. Was this because they are less tried and true than other authors, or because none of their A+'s has been really spectacular, or were you rating these authors on something other than their novels? cheers, Jerry ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 1982 0507-PDT Subject: Book reviews, Grade inflation and gymnastics. From: William "Chops" Westfield First, let me reply to the comment about grade inflation that said "when was the last time you saw a gymnast score less than 9.8..." This is a poor example. I was a gymnast. I never scored a 9.8, and I even managed to beat a lot of people. Gymnastics has a strict set of rules that determines the scores awarded. Given these rules and the quality of international caliber gymnastics routines, all the scores should be in the high 9s. This is not so much a matter of inflation as a case of the rules having failed to keep up with the state of the art. This, of course, has nothing to do with SF, so I have cleverly included it with a bunch of book reviews, to wit: 1) "The Magic Goes Away" by Larry Niven This book explains why although magic is universal in myths, it doesn't work anymore. It seems that all the "mana", which is needed by magic the way oxygen is needed by fire, has been used up. "Mana" exists in plenty on extra terrestrial bodys, and it is the plan of the protagonists in this book to bring the moon to earth and replenish the supply of mana. First however, they have to find enough remaining mana ON earth to accomplish this uncertain task. The book has believable, interesting characters, many wonderful explanations of various mythological phenomena and their demise ("Dragon metabolism is partly magical..."), and a good, consistent plot. The "trade paperback" I read (from the library) also had pictures that were well drawn without being so detailed as to ruin your imaginings, although they tended to disagree with the text as to what and how much the main female character was wearing. The book loses a little since you know from the beginning what the outcome must be. (magic DOESN'T work). 2) Rodger Zelazny a) "Creatures of Light and Darkness" This is a book of the type Zelazny seems to do best. The implementation of a religion using high technology and science. In CoLaD, the major antagonists are the "angel of life" and "angel of death" who more or (mostly) less co-operatively maintain the ecology of the inhabited galaxy. The protagonist is a former god himself - "The Prince who was a thousand", who was outsted by a sort of coup a long time ago, along with some other "immortals", who of course oppose the antagonists rather violent forms of population control. In addition there is an "EVIL thing" that The Prince is out to destroy. Good stuff, but not as good as "Lord of Light". b) "Doorways in the Sand" I'm not sure Zelazny really wrote this. It's unlike anything else of his I've ever read. My god, it's almost CONVENTIONAL ! It has enough humor and unexpected turns of plot to have been written by Laumer, although it holds together better, and comes out pretty consistent. The main character has been an undergraduate for 13 years, and plans to stay such. It seems that everyone, including the feds, hoodlums, and alien agents disguised as various animals, is looking for an alledgedly missing alien artifact of unknown purpose that has been given to earth. Apparently they all think he knows where it is. He doesn't, which leads to merry chases, much confusion, and 185 pages of story. Not bad -- worth reading. 3) Speaking of "Keith Laumer": a) "The House in November" A relatively non-twisted Laumer "Bum to Superman" story. Jeff Malory wake up one morning to find everyone in his town acting like a zombie. He himself can't remember anything that has happened in the last 3 months. This is obviously due to the obviously alien creatures walking around (they turn out to be a hive intelegence that reproduces like a virus, getting the native population of a "conquered" planet to manufacture their offspring). Most of the book deals with Jeff's attempts to convince surviving humans (non zombies outside of town) that he isn't crazy, and that there are aliens, rather than russians or chinese, and of course there is a battle with the alien(s). b) "Night of Delusions" This is a severly twisted work, even for Laumer. Something strange or unexpected must happen on the average of every 4 pages. It might be considered a solidified dream or realized insanity. Sort of P.K. Dickish, in that much of it concerns the uncertainty of the lines between reality and non-reality and whether or not it matters. It's written in a much lighter style, uses technology instead of drugs, and centers on a hero rather than a victim, however, making it a lot of fun to read, if you can take having credibility scrambled. 4) Poul Anderson a) "The Avatar" In this book, I begin to see what McLure complains about in Novels. There are a lot of good ideas in here, but the whole thing seemed to me to be very padded. The basic conflict is between the people who want to explore space and the people who want to spend all of that money improving conditions on earth. Very current, except that it's interstellar travel that is being threatened. The hero sets off on a journey hoping to convince alien races to help them defeat the conservatives, and/or discover enough so that their way will be obviously more desirable. I should say that the star travel is provided by un-met beings called "others" who have sprinkled gateways all over the galaxy, including one on the opposite side of the sun from earth. The padding I found objectionable consists of sexual encounters that don't really go anywhere. I suppose this is to be considered "character development", but it seems a lousy way to do it. Also, the next-to-last N chapters sound like they were designed for the special effect departmentand the silver screen. Lots of awe-inspired scenes with the characters standing around awe-inspired. MAYBE worth reading. Probably not worth buying. b) "The Day of Their Return" I guess this is my least favorite kind of SF, where the protagonist travels around a planet experiencing cultures of an alien (different, not inhuman) world. Ivar (the protagonist) wants to free his planet from the oppressive terran empire, which is painted as not really so oppressive. Kind of nice guys, actually, who are trying to reconstruct things after "The collapse". Unfortunately, most of the planet agrees with Ivar, especially since there are rumors and a convincing prophet around saying that an advanced race of "Elders" will be returning to help them. The book is especially consistent. Everything gets explained satisfactorally by the end of the book. I believe this ties into an Anderson sort of "known space" series, although the only other book in the series was "The Earth book of Stormgate" or some such. (note: the book stands alone, it just has common aliens and things). OK, but like I said, not my favorite type of story. c) "The Corridors of Time" A "Glory Road" type of book. A beautiful Female person from the future (who may or may not be a good guy) recruits a contemporary man in a capacity as a hero to battle her enemies. Said battles occur throughout time, mostly in something like 1800 BC. Many standard time-travel gimicks are employed. Reasonable escapism. d) "Brain Wave" Earth is currently in a field that suppresses certain types of electromagnetic phenomena, including some that occur in nerve tissue. In BW, Earth suddenly leaves this field, causing any creature with a brain to suddenly have its intelligence increased by a factor of about 3. The consequences are detailed. People who had never been trained to think, and who never thought much, suddenly have the ability, and find their old jobs unchallenging and unrewarding. No one wants to collect the garbage anymore. Farm animals develop a sudden aversion to being slaughtered. Psychology, Psychiatry, and most fields of science suddenly become useless or obsolete. Many people go insane from the shock and/or the strain of their suddenly increased intelligence. All sorts of problems. This was a really interesting book. It said some things I disagree with (for example the claim is made that all art would suddenly lose its impact. I think that sunsets, bird songs and the stars will always be beautiful, and thus so will their imitations). The book is quite old (1954) and shows some obvious political biases (for example communist peasants all quickly revolt upon becoming more intelligent). Also quite interesting is that some of the changes attributed to increase intelligence have occurred anyway ("There was an easy informality of dress, open-necked, slacks, and jeans, an occasional flamboyant experiment..." and that's in a nightclub. Hell, it sounds like where I work ! (maybe there is hope for the human race after all)). Not complex, Not complete, Not even very thorough, but a must read for its ideas.... More on grade inflation. I rarely read anything that I find really distasteful. I hardly ever fail to finish a book - to me, even if it doesn't look like its going to be all that good, There isn't much reason not to spend the couple hours it will take to finish it. One good line in a 200 page novel makes it worth having read. It's really hard to find a book that you can't say \something/ good about. Enjoy BillW ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 7-Aug cGrath Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #33 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI Schauble.Multics at MIT-MULTICS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 5 Aug 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 33 Today's Topics: SF Fandom - CHICON IV, SF TV - HHGttG & Dr Who & Dark Star, SF Movies - Lifepod, SF Books - Here's the Plot...What's the Title & Pride of Chandur & Windhaven & Lensman Series & Stanislaw Lem, Humor - Genderless Video Games ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 6 August 1982 01:11 edt From: Schauble.Multics at MIT-MULTICS Subject: Worldcon query Anyone here from the Chicago worldcon who can answer a question about site selection? Please respond directly to me. Thanks, Paul ------------------------------ Date: 5 Aug 1982 15:24:55-PDT From: ihuxl!ignatz at Berkeley Subject: Chicagoans on CHICON IV Hi there. I'm Dave Ihnat; this fellow next to me is Doug Price. How you doing ,eh? As we're sure you're all aware, CHICON IV is fast approaching. Specifically, Sept. 2-6. It has occurred to the two of us that the net would be a good way to accept queries, gripes, etc.; answer questions, disseminate the latest & greatest, etc. concerning the con. In fact, Doug is on the official publications editorial staff, and we both know & have access to the Powers That Be for Chicon. Not necessarily always have influence, but access. So, perhaps some information. If you already know all this, be patient; there are still some poor souls who don't. CHICON IV is the World Science Fiction Convention for 1982. It will be at the Hyatt-Regency Chicago, Thursday, Sept. 2 thru Monday, Sept. 6, 1982--essentially the Labor day weekend. Hotel room rates are somewhat variable, depending upon which hotel you get. Double-doubles are hard to come by at the Hyatt, but otherwise there's still a lot of room left at the Hyatt and others. You can't apply through the Convention bureau anymore, however--our reserved blocks are no longer being held. Thus, contact your hotel of choice directly. (This shouldn't be a problem; we suggest trying the Hyatt first, since all functions of the convention are being held there, and you'll find most parties there, as well. Of course, if you're not particularly a party animal, then...but then, why did you come...eh? Enuf.) Room rates depend on which hotel and what you get, but in general run *about* $70.00 for a double- double, $50.00 for a double, and $40.00 for a single. (These are *excellent* rates for downtown Chicago, by the way--Magnificent Mile, don't you know. For instance, a single at the Hyatt is normally $98.00/nite. If you've any questions--other hotels, exact rates, etc.--feel free to MAIL either one of us a message; we'll answer pronto. Really. As for the convention, I hope you all planned ahead. The rates just recently took their last jump-- to $70.00 dollars for the whole thing. And, sadly, there are *no* one-days. *sigh*. However, all is not bleak; they're pro-rating the cost on a day-by-day basis, such that if you show up a day or two late, you only pay for the remaining days. What? Oh...ok. Here's Doug...eh? That's not peanuts for membership. But you're not getting peanuts, either. For instance, over three tracks of programming will be running every day of the convention. That's three (or more) possible topics, discussions, interviews, etc. running at once for you to choose from! There will be scads of professional writers and editors to sign your first-editions and to do readings from their own works. They'll even answer your questions. ("Gee, Mr. Ellison, do you *really* throw fans down elevator shaf--aaaaaughh.....")("Geee, Ike--er, Mr. Asimov--where do you get all your ideas??") There's also an Art Show (note the capitals) in which you can bid on pieces ranging from Foglio to Sternbach. The Huckster Room will have 250 tables of booksellers, media material, photographs, gamer's materials, etc. etc. The Film Rooms will have two tracks of the newest and the oldest, the best and the worst films you have ever seen! An additional track of video programming will be presented as well. This doesn't even cover the Masquerade, the Hugo awards ceremony, and on and on (and on). And, if you're really crazy, you can help us pull this whole thing off...as a gopher. There are certain advantages; you get to rub elbows with the Pros, meet the Doers and Shakers (Shakers? I thought they died out!?)(shaddup Dave!) Anyway. Dave back. Enuf, already. If you have anything we can help with, just mail to either one of us--electronic addresses follow. If you need detailed stuff--from flyers to progress reports--and it's too much to send over the net, or you like the feel of wood pulp, send a SASE (Self Addressed, Stamped Envelope) to the Committee, and they'll get it out to you *fast*. (Probably even if it isn't stamped, but then don't hold your breath...) So, in closing, come on in and let us show you our town! Trust me! Dave Ihnat or Doug Price ihuxl!ignatz ihuxl!ihima!dhp OR CHICON IV P.O. Box A3120 Chicago, IL 60690 ------------------------------ Date: 5 Aug 1982 1931-EDT From: John R. Covert Subject: HhGttG not planned in Boston It seems WGBH has no plans to show HhGttG. I called today and spoke to someone in "programming" who apparently had only heard of the radio show. Obviously the people who answer the phone are not the ones who make the decision, but she did say that she had noted my comments and that they would see if they got many more calls. The number is 492-2777. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Aug 1982 1304-PDT From: Douglas Galbraith Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #30 Is Dr. Who being shown on any San Francisco TV stations? It sounds interesting. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Aug 82 13:54:39-EDT (Thu) From: Richard G Turner Subject: Dark Star According to my local tv guide, DARK STAR, will be shown on WDCA, in the Washington, DC area, at 1:30 PM, this Saturday, Aug 7, 1982. -rick ------------------------------ Date: 3 Aug 1982 02:19:54-PDT From: decvax!duke!uok!uokvax!mwm at Berkeley Reply-to: decvax!duke!uok!uokvax!mwm@ucb Subject: Micros in the Movies I just finished watching a rather interesting film called `Lifepod,' all about a manic organic computer controlling a Jupiter-bound ship, and the responses of various people to it taking over the ship (does that make sense?). Lifepod is apparently running on independent stations, and is worth seeing if you get the chance. The interesting part was the computer control system for the lifepod. The display was rather obviously an Apple II. They used a jittery display of a BASIC program as `information,' and were running the SubLogic A2-FS1 flight simulator for a landing sequence. Also of note was the HLTA light on the Imsai going on as an indicator for an impending landing. I'm just curious as to why I hadn't heard of the thing before now, seeing as how it was made in 1980. mike ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 1982 at 1023-CDT From: ables at UTEXAS-11 (King Ables) Subject: here's the plot... From a friend of mine: Here's the plot what's the title - A group of scientists searching for life on other worlds via radio communication picks up some signals and decodes them. In the message are instructions for building a machine of unknown properties.The rest of the book (I think) deals with whether they should actually build the thing and what will happen if they do. I seem to remember that this book was discussed on SF-LOVERS about six months ago but I couldn't locate the article. Any hints? Steve Alexander c/o ables@utexas-11 ------------------------------ Date: 6 Aug 1982 0318-PDT From: Dolata at SUMEX-AIM Subject: Pride of Chandur C.J. Cherryh (how does one pronounce that???) has done it again! Robbed me of sleep, and set my household to buzzing. I bought 'Pride of Chandur' shortly before a deadline, and ended up sitting up 2 hours past my bedtime to finish it. My wife came home late to dinner because she was reading the book in her office and lost track of the time, and our house-mate lost it on the bus in mid-read and went right out and plunked down $3+ to get another copy. I felt the ending was a little weak, but all in all the book is gripping enough that I would recommend it to somebody who wants an exciting read. The plot is nice, a here-to-fore unknown alien species (human) is found slinking around the docks on a space station. He is adopted by a buncha cats ( the chandur) who flit across space to keep him out of the hands of aliens that have the lovable attributes of wharf-rats. Lots of chases, shoot-em-ups and close calls. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Aug 1982 1650-EDT From: Joseph M. Newcomer Subject: Windhaven Windhaven: "The Fall" was actually published in Amazing about a year or so ago. I had mostly given up reading Amazing because of the generally low quality of the stories (and the typorgraphy/layout was annoying too), but I was stuck in an airport and had read everything else I had brought along. Most of the filler was new for the book, but the material subsequent to "The Fall" might also have been published in Amazing or some other place. Has anyone else possibly seen some? joe [ The section entitled "Storms" was originally published as "The Storms of Windhaven" in the May 1975 issue of Analog. The section entitled "One-Wing" was originally published under that title in the January and February 1980 issues of Analog. -- Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 6 Aug 82 00:36:42 EDT (Fri) From: Steve Bellovin Subject: news "Lensman" covers Well, they're all right -- but the cover of "Second Stage Lensman" shows Our Heroine wearing a space-suit with cleavage... ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jul 1982 1717-PDT From: KRIEGER Subject: HELLO! I have just found the SF-LOVERS Digest in the process of writing documentation on MM. From a quick read-through of the contents of the various issues, it seems that not many Stanislaw Lem fans are out there. For those of you who are unknowing of Lem, he is the author of SOLARIS, FUTUROLOGICAL CONGRESS, MEMOIRS FOUND IN A BATHTUB, THE INVESTIGATION, THE STAR DIARIES, TALES OF PIRX THE PILOT, THE CYBERIAD, MORTAL ENGINES, and RETURN FROM THE STARS. And these are just the few of his works which have been translated into english (he hails from Poland). I would be interested in hearing from other people who have read Lem's books and would like to discuss them. Though I saw some references to Hofstadter's GODEL, ESCHER, BACH, I didn't catch any to THE MIND'S I. What do you people say about this book? I will suspend further comments until I see some kind of response, but rest assured I will continue to read the Digest. ------------------------------ Date: 6-Jul-82 15:06:27 PDT (Tuesday) From: Reed.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #5 PacPack. Really! I read that one in a book of Pacman jokes. Are we about to be treated to a page-by-page repeat of this long-since-published compendium of 'pacpuns'? Pac to the drawing board.... -- Larry -- ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 8-Aug cGrath Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #34 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI Schauble.Multics at MIT-MULTICS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 6 Aug 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 34 Today's Topics: SF Lovers - De-Digestify Program, SF Books - Ursula LeGuin & Bookstores & Valis & Lensman Series, SF Movies - Virus, SF TV - PBS, SF Topics - Psychology in SF & Brain Use & Holographic Memory, Humor - Worldcon Bid ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 6 Aug 1982 0307-PDT From: Dolata at SUMEX-AIM Subject: De-concatenating prog Does anybody out there have a prog that will run on a KI-10/TENEX system that will take the concatenated SF-LOVERS and break it back down to its' individual messages? Then I could easily respond to each person directly, or look at the headers and quickly sort out dreck from interest. For those of you complaining about the longish main-stream media movie reviews, this would allow you to delete those messages immediately! Dan (dolata@sumex-aim) ------------------------------ Date: 5 Aug 82 14:32:36 EDT (Thu) From: Steve Bellovin Subject: Rumor about Ursula LeGuin A friend says she heard from a friend of hers that Ursula LeGuin died a few weeks ago. Is this rumor correct? --Steve ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 1982 2145-EDT From: Reed B. Powell Subject: A good Source for Hard To Find SF Volumes There have been a few requests of late for information on those hard to find SF oldies. An excellent source is ZIESING BROTHERS, located in Willimantic CT. Their complete address is: Ziesing Brothers 768 Main Street Willimantic, CT 06226 c/o Mark (203)423-5836 They/Mark publish a quarterly listing of their volumes, which include hardbacks, softbacks, paperback, first printings, signed volumes, collector's editions, etc. A large selection of British printings is also included. The quickest route to finding a specific volume is to call mark and ask him to hunt it down for you. -reed ------------------------------ Date: 5 Aug 1982 1524-PDT From: LEWIS at SRI-AI (Bil Lewis) Subject: Looking for a Phillip K Dick novel... a) I have this old high school friend by the name of Doris whom I am going to visit next week or so. b) Phillip K Dick wrote a book by the name of Valice (or something like that) another high school friend told me. I would very much like to get ahold of a copy of this book if anyone in the SRI area happens to own it. Therefore: c) The connection? Obvious. Said second friend claims said book is autobiographical, which means it's all about Doris and a couple of other old HS friends. Hence you can understand... -Bil [ The novel is VALIS, by Phillip K Dick, 1981. Bantam books has a paperback edition that is available in most SF shops. -- Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: Sun Aug 8 02:43:30 1982 From: decvax!utzoo!henry at Berkeley Subject: Lensman series People who want to read the Lensman series in the *right* order, as opposed to the strict chronological one, should first read \Galactic Patrol/, \Gray Lensman/, \Second Stage Lensmen/, and \Children of the Lens/, in that order, ***without*** reading the forewords and afterwards on the last three. These four books, minus the forewords and afterwards, actually form one very large novel with gradually building suspense and insight. That is the way Doc Smith originally conceived them, that is the sequence he published them in, and that is the way they read best. It's most unfortunate that he chose to add the forewords and afterwards for the book versions; they should have gigantic bright red ***SPOILER WARNING***s on them, because that's exactly what they are: huge spoilers. \Triplanetary/ actually consists of filler material plus a much older short novel rewritten to fit it into the Lensman universe. Its age shows. \First Lensman/ was actually the last book published (barring \Masters of the Vortex/ which is in the same universe but otherwise unconnected), and was written as a gap-filler. It's not bad. Both of these should be read after, not before, the four main novels, because both are spoilers with respect to major plot elements of the four. Except for the short story that eventually became \Masters of the Vortex/, I don't know of any other Lensman fiction by Doc Smith himself. There have been two attempts by other authors to set fiction in the Lensman universe. William Ellern had a Lensman-universe story, \Moon Prospector/, in Analog in 1965 or 66. This was quite good, although there was already a bit of strain because of the divergence of real history and technology from what Doc Smith had envisioned. The technology of \Moon Prospector/ is really incompatible with the Smith novels, but so smoothly done that you have to think about it to notice this. Ellern, incidentally, at John Campbell's suggestion, got Doc Smith's approval before publishing. The more recent effort is David Kyle's [sp?] \The Dragon Lensman/. I started to read this. Twice. I couldn't make myself go much beyond the first hundred pages. The technological incompatibilities are far more severe, and are major elements in the plot so they cannot just slide past you without being noticed. It just wasn't the same. Although Doc Smith had thought about writing the stories of the other second-stage Lensmen, I doubt very much if he would have produced anything like this. Henry Spencer decvax!utzoo!henry @ Berkeley ------------------------------ Date: Thu Aug 5 01:14:02 1982 From: decvax!watmath!bstempleton at Berkeley Subject: Movie: VIRUS I just saw on TV a movie called VIRUS, dated 1981. It starred Robert Vaughn, Chuck Connors, George Kennedy and a few others. The thing that surprised me about this film (on late night) was that I felt it was fairly good SF. There's nothing too surprising. Germ Warfare guys have devised, by means of designer genes, a 'mimic' virus that connects to other viri, making them more toxic and virulent. This means the bug doesn't kill you, but if you get a cold and it's around, you might as well say bye-bye. At any rate, this thing doesn't spread in sub-zero temperatures, so soon the only people left around are submarine crews and people at the Antarctic stations. To top things off, both Russia and the USA have Dr. Strangelove type doomsday systems to provide automatic retaliation to nuclear attack, and they have been set in active state by a general who thinks the plague is the work of the commies. I won't spoil the rest. Anyway, I was surprised by this film. Anybody else see it and have comments? Who made it? ------------------------------ Date: 3 Aug 1982 1231-EDT From: Larry Seiler Subject: Harassing your local PBS station The best way to convince your local PBS to run a program is not to call them (that's just the easiest way). The best way is to send them a letter telling what you want, and enclose a check. 'Nuff said. ------------------------------ Date: 8-Aug-82 7:29PM-EDT (Sun) From: John Black Subject: Psychology and SciFi I am trying to find science fiction stories that utilize results (or extrapolations of results) from modern Cognitive or Information Processing Psychology. There are large numbers of stories that utilize results from such sciences as physics, chemistry, biology, etc. but apparently not many from psychology -- which seems too bad to me (a cognitive psychologist). I can think of a couple of examples of novels that have applied other areas of psychology: in particular, THE TERMINAL MAN which utilizes physiological psychology (especially, localization of function in the brain) and WALDEN TWO which utilized (now outdated) results from behavior modification. I will give a couple of examples to illustrate what I mean. One of the major results from modern cognitive psychology is the capacity limit on short-term or working memory. A science fiction story could exploit this by speculating about what aliens with a different working memory capacity might be like. For another example, a major issue has been different memory representations: e.g., is thought done in propositions or images or a mixture of the two. A science fiction story could utilize this by inventing different beings that have minds with different ways of representing the world and show how problems arise when such beings meet. Does anybody know of any stories that try to utilize such things? Would any writers out there like some pointers to such literature? ------------------------------ Date: 6 August 1982 13:05-PDT (Friday) From: KING at KESTREL Subject: Brain Use / Holographic Memory If you cut a piece out of a hologram you get a smaller window on your object. That implies a blurrier picture, because the size of the window limits the size of the lens (or other imaging system) you could use to determine the locations of the "objects" in the hologram. A separate effect (I think) is that there would be diffraction at the edges of the "window". Dick ------------------------------ Date: 5 Aug 82 22:48:07-EDT (Thu) From: Mark Weiser Subject: Brain Use / Holographic memory "Making a hologram smaller (by cutting it) ... reduces the window through which the image can be seen...if you cut out part of it you lose information." Sort of. It reduces the window, but the window is not a clipping window like we are used to on computers, but rather a "real" window like looking out at your front lawn. Reducing its size doesn't reduce the information in any direct way--you must just stand closer and peer out around the edges, but can still see the same thing. A hologram is a freezing of the complete wave pattern of the light--when you illuminate the hologram, the wave front starts up again like it never stopped. "Checking how much of the brain is used by seeing which neurons fire is like seeing how much of your computer memory is used by counting the set bits!" Can't agree with this either. The brain is obviously organized modularly at least in some parts (the "association" areas are still unknown, however), and seeing which neurons fire is a lot like seeing which addresses are sent out on the computer bus. This is, of course, a very *good* method of spotting utilization and bottlenecks in a computer system. Why not for the brain? ------------------------------ Date: 6 August 1982 18:56 edt From: SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-MULTICS Subject: counting set bits, again Once again this flawed analogy turns up: Checking how much of the brain is used by seeing which neurons fire is like seeing how much of your computer memory is used by counting the set bits! This is not at all true. Checking how much of the brain is used by seeing which neurons fire is like seeing how much of you computer (not its memory) is used by counting state transitions. This works quite well for computers. Using a cheap radio to find out if a particular unit or bus is being used is common practice. It works moderately well for brains in that the suspected active sites usually correspond with those active sites determined by impairment studies. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Aug 1982 (Thursday) 1005-EDT From: OSTER at Wharton-10 (David Oster) Subject: Upcoming world con bid. I hear Philadelphia is trying for the year 2000. The con will be called The Millenium Philcon. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 9-Aug cGrath Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #35 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI Schauble.Multics at MIT-MULTICS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 7 Aug 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 35 Today's Topics: SF Topics - Movie Reviews, SF Movies - The Secret of NIMH & TRON & Blade Runner & Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, Random Topics - Violence in Movies, Spoiler - Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 Aug 82 15:47:57-EDT (Mon) From: Dsn.umcp-cs at UDel-Relay Subject: movie reviews from the press I strongly disagree with mwm@ucb's tirade against reviews from the press. I would like to see such reviews continue to appear. In my opinion, they are often the most worthwhile contributions to SFL. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Aug 1982 02:26:33-PDT From: decvax!duke!uok!uokvax!jejones at Berkeley Subject: The Secret of NIMH The animation was excellent, without a doubt. However, I found the movie ethically offensive for the same reason I found Richard Adams's *The Plague Dogs* offensive. While I am perhaps hypocritical to the extent that I would find it hard to pith a frog (being brought up with the "Bambi syndrome"), I wonder how many of the people who hold the position seemingly espoused in the movie would be able to say explicitly to a human suffering from some disease "I think it better that you suffer and die than that a rat or mouse suffer and die"? Ben Bova's comments on *Star Wars* (made way back when in *Analog*) apply also to *The Secret of NIMH*; there is enough irrationality in the world without propagandizing it to children. James Jones (duke!uok!uokvax!jejones) ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 1982 (Monday) 1735-EDT From: OSTER at Wharton-10 (David Oster) Subject: Sequel to TRON In-reply-to: James Jones of 17 Jul 1982 Subject: Sequel to TRON Re: Anyone who has used Microsoft Basic can tell you that TRON is the command that turns on statement execution tracing, listing the line numbers of statements as they are executed. (I hope no one makes a movie called TROFF...) Ah yes..., troff - the sinister program that tries to prevent users from communicating with each other by restricting them to a line length of 7.54" and a maximum of 4 fonts. ------------------------------ Date: 29 July 1982 00:37-EDT From: Charles F. Von Rospach Subject: TRON as Disney allegory As a person who did work within the Disney organization for four years, if there is an allegory to the actual 'takeover', it is unconscious and/or a great secret from the Disney management. They would NEVER allow a movie out that might imply they weren't doing things in the way the great God Walter intended (which I think says it all about the 'takeover' itself. Walt was NEVER afraid of critisicm. He just never paid any attention). The Biggest problem with Disney studios today is not that they are not doing things Walts way, they are still trying to do it his way. They have not changed as the times changed (which Walt was very good at), and they are mostly MBA types that simply don't have the vision that Walt did. Chuck ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 4 Aug 1982 10:28-PDT From: jim at RAND-UNIX Subject: Smallpox in Bladerunner Apparently I need to support my assertion that a smallpox vaccination scar in 2019 is an anachronism. Let me point out that my kids and their classes have not been vaccinated. My older boy is 14, which will make him (don't tell me ...) 51 in 2019, clearly older than Deckard. The World Health Organization has declared smallpox eliminated; Smithsonian had a picture of the last man to have smallpox (a Somalian, I think) a few months ago. I'll grant that there may be a few more cases of smallpox that they don't know about, probably all in the Ethiopia/Somalia area, but will assert that even if they exist they're extremely unlikely to get out of hand. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that for many years the only people to get smallpox vaccinations have been scientists working in labs that keep live smallpox cultures in order to keep vaccines available... Now don't get me wrong. I think Bladerunner was a really excellent movie that addressed an interesting moral issue with which humanity has not yet been faced. I'm sure few more trivial points than this have been raised on the List (excluding ST2:TWoK, of course); I just want to keep the facts clear... Jim Gillogly ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 82 9:52:56-EDT (Wed) From: Earl Weaver (VLD/VMB) Subject: Violence People don't seem to mind the violence on the Roadrunner cartoons, or even in Bugs Bunny's life. But when they perceive violence in Bladerunner for instance, they get all bent out of shape. (not all people of course...) ------------------------------ Date: Monday, August 9, 1982 3:57AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Subject: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The last message in this digest discuss some plot details in the movie Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. Some readers may not wish to read on. ------------------------------ Date: 29-JUL-1982 13:21 From: TSC::COORS::VICKREY Reply-to: "TSC::COORS::VICKREY c/o" Subject: Star Trek N Now that we've flamed on Star Trek I (The Motion Picture), raved over Star Trek II (The Wrath of Khan), and deduced the plot of Star Trek III (In Search of Spock), surely we can extrapolate the story of Star Trek IV (???). Any mathematicians out there care to put together the equation? susan ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 29 Jul 1982 09:37-PDT From: jim at RAND-UNIX Subject: ST:TWoK - Who was that masked target? (spoiler?) In answer to the perennial question of who the guy was that Tyrell shot before shooting himself while in the middle of the Genesis phase II planet: It was Dr. Hagrot, one of the few (i.e. 3) people to escape from the station via transporter while Khan was torturing the others. The other 2 were, of course, Bibi Besch and her idiot boy. The name may not really be Hagrot, of course... it comes from an old cartoon (which I unfortunately haven't seen, but which we have all seen innumerable times in the episodes): the landing party beams down to a planet, and consists of Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Sulu, Scotty, and some ensign that we've never seen before. They materialize at the top of a cliff, with all except the unknown ensign on solid ground and the ensign in thin air above the N-meter drop (for large N). Kirk looks over and says, "Tough luck, Hagrot." So now when I and my friends are watching an episode (or ST:TWoK) and somebody unknown gets it, we look at each other, say "Tough luck, Hagrot" in unison, and snigger. Jim Gillogly ------------------------------ Date: 2 August 1982 09:22-EDT (Monday) From: David H. Kaufman Subject: Chekov and the creepy crawly Jsol, I have one question. How was it that McCoy managed to know, without examining the patient or any such (outdated?) medical procedure, exactly the right tool to force out of Chekov's head a creature from a planet that McCoy hadn't been on for at least 20 years, if ever? I guess that's why he's a doctor and I'm not. Dave Kaufman P.S. For those of you who don't know, that tool was a Sub-Etha Electro-Magnetic Cattleprod, produced by Megadodo Publications for removing Babel fish from Hitch-hikers' ears. McCoy had it because he's a closet HHG fan . . . ------------------------------ Date: 29 July 1982 10:46-EDT (Thursday) From: David H. Kaufman Subject: Spock Must Die Some friends and I have been speculating on the Genesis Effect, and the form in which Spock will return. Can't you just see a giant rootabaga (sp?) sitting on the bridge of the Enterprise, saying 'Logic suggests ....'? Dave Kaufman ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jul 1982 at 0952-PDT From: chesley.tsca at SRI-Unix Subject: STII: Starship superuser passwords (spoiler) I assumed that the reason starships have remote control capabilities is so that several ships can be slaved to one another during battles, etc. This facility is naturally turned off when one suspects one's own ships of being under the control of the bad guys; the M5 knew enough to turn it off. Under normal, non-battle circumstances, the facility is left enabled just in case something bad happens (the entire crew getting food poisoning, for instance), so a friendly ship can take over and guide you out of danger, or at least open the air-locks for rescue. This is why the ship Khan stole was enabled for remote control; he didn't have time to figure out all the obscure corners of the ship, and this part is no doubt a closely guarded Starfleet secret, heavily encrypted somewhere deep inside the ship's computer. --Harry... ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 29 July 1982 14:49-EDT From: Vince Fuller Subject: Why M5 did not know the prefix codes to disable ships. Oh really? I am a little confused. As I recall, in the movie, Spock queried the computer for the prefix code for the Reliant. Is my memory mistaken? --vaf ------------------------------ Date: 6 Aug 1982 12:11:22-PDT From: ihuxl!rjnoe at Berkeley I was very disturbed by some of the comments made in SFL Digest V6 #27 regarding Star Trek II. Some of this same irresponsible (and incorrect) guesswork went on USENET as well and I make an attempt to curtail it, as such ridiculous speculations only serve to confuse others. It is my intention to *answer* questions rather than create new ones. No ship in Starfleet has an M-5 computer. Further, the control console prefix codes ARE stored within the ships' computers. But to obtain the code itself from the computer, one needs proper authori- zation, something the computer does not have by itself. Roger Noe ARPA: ...!ucbvax!ihuxl!rjnoe at berkeley [I think that's right] ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 9-Aug cGrath Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #36 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI Schauble.Multics at MIT-MULTICS SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 8 Aug 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 36 Today's Topics: Administrivia - Opinions from SU-LOTS, SF Topics - Opinions from SU-LOTS ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Monday, August 9, 1982 4:17AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS-REQUEST at MIT-AI Subject: Opinions from SU-LOTS The following material is from the BBoard at SU-LOTS, and was submitted by Stuart M. Cracraft (mclure at SRI-UNIX). It was thought to be of interest to the readership. Since LOTS is not on the net, responses cannot be made to the original submitters - however, people should feel free to discuss the topics and issues raised. Jim ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jul 1982 2048-PDT From: M.McLure at SU-LOTS (Stuart M. Cracraft) Subject: science fiction reviews As with any list like this, it is impossible to include everything of significance. Your grouping of Le Guin with Varley & Farmer is preposterous. Le Guin and Varley are extraordinarily talented authors. Farmer is absolute trash. I haven't read a thing of his that I thought was worthwhile. He puts man on a treadmill with no hope for salvation. The Magic Labyrinth (end of the Riverworld series) was one of the all-time worst books I have ever read. You left out three books by Varley: The Ophiuchi Hotline The Persistence of Vision The Barbie Murders I consider all three of these to be among the best SF written in the last decade. His Titan/Wizard stuff is much less impressive because he was duped into going sequelitis/series by his publisher. I trust he will get out of that rut after Demon. Also important is James Tiptree, Jr. (a.k.a. Alice Sheldon) who is on a par with Le Guin and Varley. Anything by her is worth reading. Interestingly, these three authors are the first ones to come to my mind who are capable of really believable female protagonists. Silverberg's most important book was also left out: Dying Inside. I consider this to be the most impressive character study in any fiction I have read. On a different note, try Vladimir Nabokov's ADA. I have always felt this is the best alternate-worlds novel. And unlike most other authors in mainstream, SF, or otherwise, Nabokov demonstrates absolute control of the English language. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jul 1982 2126-PDT From: A.AVERY at SU-LOTS (l. avery) Subject: De Gustabus non Disputandum (I don't know if that's right; I never took Latin.) I cannot understand the kind of taste that can give "Foundation" an A+, and "The Gods Themselves" a C. I think Issac Asimov in general comes up with great stories that are poorly written; and "Foundation" comes in there. I'd give it a C+ or B-. "The Gods Themselves", on the other hand, is three great stories, well tied together, and all well written. In my book it's among the top five of all SF novels written. I also can't understand the kind of taste that says Heinlein is an excellent writer, but LeGuin isn't. I consider her the best SF writer ever, bar none, while he partakes of the general stylistic sloppiness that chaacterizes the Golden Age. I enjoy reading "The Left Hand of Darkness" more than everything except some of Shakespeare, Jane Austen, and Tolkien's two big ones. Understand that I'm not saying anything is WRONG with your taste, but just that it is very different from mine. I was thinking of putting together a similar book list, just so that people would have the benefit of more than one person's opinions. Would anyone be interested? l. avery ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jul 1982 1710-PDT From: A.AVERY at SU-LOTS (l. avery) Subject: sf reading list Rating system: E Excellent This is meant to be a very high rating; I have used it sparingly. G Good Still a pretty good book. F Fair Woth reading, but not wonderful. A Average or worse. If I found a book average or worse, I decided there was no point in saying how much worse I found it. Additional information: * following the rating means this book is important to the developement of SF as a whole. I have used this rating sparingly, too, to avoid redundancy with Ross Nelson's more complete list. (H) Hugo award winner. (N) Nebula award winner. (W) Newbery Award winner. In these I'm going by memory. If I say a book got an award, it almost certainly did, but if I don't say it doesn't mean that it didn't. Vonda McIntyre Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan F Dreamsnake G Ursula LeGuin The Winds' Twelve Quarters G Rocannon's World G Orsinian Tales G The Eye of the Heron G Planet of Exile G City of Illusions G The Left Hand of Darkness E* (HN) The Lathe of Heaven E The Word for World is Forest G The Beginning Place E The Dispossessed E (HN) Malafrena G Hard Words (poetry) A Earthsea Trilogy: A Wizard of Earthsea E The Tombs of Atuan E (W) The Farthest Shore E Isaac Asimov The Gods Themselves E (HN) Foundation Trilogy: * (H) Foundation F Foundation and Empire F Second Foundation G Murder at the ABA G The Bicentennial Man G The Stars Like Dust F I, Robot F The Rest of the Robots F The Caves of Steel F The End of Eternity F The Naked Sun F Robert Heinlein Methusalah's Children F Time Enough for Love F The Puppet Masters F Double Star G The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag F Starship Troopers F* Glory Road G Stranger in a Strange Land F The Moon is a Harsh Mistress G J.R.R. Tolkien The Hobbit G Lord of the Rings E* Smith of Wooton Major E Farmer Giles of Ham F The Silmarillion G Madeleine L'Engel A Wrinkle in Time G (W) A Swiftly Tilting Planet A A Wind in the Door F C.S. Lewis The Chronicles of Narnia G* Alexei Panshin Rite of Passage G Philip Jose Farmer The Lovers F* Riverworld Series: To Your Scattered Bodies Go G The Dark Design F The Fabulous Riverboat A The Magic Labyrinth A ??? Conan the Swordsman A Joan Vinge The Snow Queen G Alfred Bester The Demolished Man F* James Tiptree, Jr. Up the Walls of the World E Out of the Everywhere G Philip Dick The Man in the High Castle G Joe Haldeman The Forever War E (HN) (Forgot the name) A Canticle for Leibowitz E (H) Frederick Pohl Gateway G Larry Niven Ringworld G (HN) Arthur Clarke Childhood's End G* The Fountains of Paradise G Rendezvous with Rama G (HN, The City and the Stars G I think) Susan Cooper The Dark is Rising series: Over Sea, Under Stone F The Dark is Rising G Greenwitch G The Grey King E (W) Silver of the Tree A Lloyd Alexander Chronicles of Prydain: The Book of Three G The Black Cauldron G The Castle of Llyr G Taran Wanderer F The High King G (W) Stephen Donaldson Lord Foul's Bane F The Illearth War F Spider and Jeanne Robinson Stardance G (HN) Patricia McKillip A Riddle of Stars trilogy: E The Riddle-Master of Hed Heir of Sea and Fire Harpist in the Wind Frank Herbert Dune G Dune Messiah A Ray Bradbury Fahrenheit 451 F The Martian Chronicles F Harlan Ellison I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream G Weinbaum A Martian Odyssey F* ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jul 1982 1711-PDT From: A.AVERY at SU-LOTS (l. avery) Subject: sf reading list: discussion Maybe a quarter of my reading is SF, the rest is mainstream literature, mostly modern classics such as Tolstoy, Austen, etc. Therefore I'm not a real hard-core SF fan. I judge SF by the same standards of literary merit as other fiction. I suppose characterization is more important to me than anything else, but it is certainly not the whole ball of wax. Another thing: I tend to judge books by what is best in them; that is, if there's something really good about a book, I'll call it a good book, almost independent of what's wrong with it. I'm interested in SF not only because I really enjoy reading it, but also because it's a uniquely American art whose development can be traced. Of course, there were H.G. Wells and Jules Verne, etc., but they weren't aware of SF as a distinct genre, and so weren't really SF authors. Real SF began with Campbell's pulps. G. Allen mentioned that the old authors have become "stylistically obsolete". While that is basically true, it's a bit euphemistic. The literary world unanimously considered SF to be trash in it's early days. Oddly enough, this had a beneficial effect: the new art had no one to please but it's own practitioners, so it didn't have to overcome obsolete prejudices. Unfortunately, this also made it able to ignore truly applicable standards, and as a result most early SF is rather shoddy literature. Heinlein and Asimov are the two authors of that period I've read the most. Heinlein is annoyingly pedantic, and his characters are paper-thin. He seems determined to force on his readers the philosophical principle that nothing in the world is so important as fucking. But his plots are often exciting, and he made many important contributions to the field which were later used by more skillful writers. Asimov is, I believe, a better writer; inherently a >much< better writer, but he has a problem. He writes too much, and quality is sacrificed for quantity. Few of his books are as good as he could make them if he did his best, and those that are are hard to find in the pile. The characters in all his early works are stereotypes. "Foundation" is populated by paper dolls. There is only one point in the whole series where a character pops into three-dimensionality, and then only for a moment (Arkady when she's running from Callia), but that moment makes the whole series worth reading. In recent years he's been improving. Dua in "The Gods Themselves" is wonderful. The early SF was incredibly chaste, seldom getting beyond the fatherly kiss. "The Lovers" changed that. That's Farmer's claim to fame: introducing sex to SF (or perhaps the other way round). In my opinion, he's a lousy writer, even when judged by his best, and his worst is putrid. Of course the most important work in the history of F&SF is "Lord of the Rings", by Tolkien. There's hardly been a book written since in which it's influence wasn't obvious. For all that, the characterization is only mediocre. Its greatness rests on variety of its fantasies, the enormous, magnificent plot, and above all on the reality of Middle Earth. "Smith of Wooton Major" is a masterpiece in a different way: it's a fine gem, carefully and elegantly cut. If you like Tolkien at all, you should take half an hour off sometime for this story. Stanley Weinbaum in "A Martian Odyssey" threw down a gauntlet. He challenged SF writers to create an alien intelligence that wasn't just a human with pointy ears. Whether such a character can be created by a human author, or interest a human reader is a question, but even if all attempts so far have been failures, two of them are so interesting that they have to be read. One is "The Gods Themselves"; the other is "Up the Walls of the World" by James Tiptree, Jr. She's an excellent author, but unfortunately I am turned off by the conviction which shows through in so much of what she writes that all men are inherently evil, and just the width of a gnat's eyebrow from being rapist-murderers. Arthur Clarke is a good writer who knows his science, but unfortunately a lousy novelist. Somehow he manages to write very good readbale books which are almost devoid of plot. It's a mystery. "Childhood's End" is a special case. It's a very rough read, but the view into the uncertainty, almost insecurity, of the young authors mind as he looks for something real is rewarding. The hero of "Childhood's End" is Arthur Clarke. I expect most people will be indignant with me for not giving "Dune" an E. I was on the point of making it an F. This book and "Stranger in a Strange Land" seem to me to pander so shamelessly to the mystic-cult market that I often retch with disgust while reading them. For all that, "Dune" has a lot of good in it, so I gave it a G. But I think it fundamently a very dishonest book. There are some books which you may not recognize: Lloyd Alexander's "Chronicles of Prydain", and Susan Cooper's "The Dark is Rising" . These are children's fantasy. I love children's literature, and consider myself something of a connoiseur (sp?). I haven't read any of Heinlein's kid's books, but I'm a little suspicious due to hearing people say that they liked them when they were kids. Good children's literature is just as enjoyable for adults as children. Unfortunately, very few people believe that; children's literature has been second-class for longer than SF. Try reading "The Jungle Books" again if you don't believe me. Finally I come to Ursula LeGuin. I don't pretend to be objective. I am in love with her, or at least her books. In my opinion, she stands head and shoulders above every other fantasy, SF, or children's writer alive today. Her style is lovely, her characters are full and real, and it is NOT true that her plots are inadequate. It depends on what you want. If you go for panoramic, "War and Peace" type plots, you'll be disappointed with hers. But if you like >stories<, gem-like, Shakespearean tales, with a feeling of unity, of inevitability, of simplicity, you like U.K. LeGuin. And anyone who calls "The Dispossessed" a utopian novel missed the point. Her poetry, on the other hand, is just awful. l. avery ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 10-Aug Grath #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #37 *** EOOH *** Date: Tuesday, August 10, 1982 6:24AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #37 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Schauble.Multics at MIT-MULTICS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 9 Aug 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 37 Today's Topics: Administrivia - New Address for SF Lovers, SF Books - Here's the Plot...What's the Title & Stanislaw Lem & Query Answered, SF TV - HHGttG & Starlost, Humor - Genderless Video Games, SF Fandom - CHICON IV, SF Topics - Creationism & Mundane View of SF, SF Movies - The Secret of NIMH & TRON & Destination Moon & Blade Runner, Random Topics - Violence in Movies, Spoiler - Blade Runner ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tuesday, August 10, 1982 6:24AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS-REQUEST at SRI-CSL Subject: New Address for SF Lovers As you can see on the masthead, SF Lovers has a new public address. All submissions to the digest should be mailed to SF-LOVERS@SRI-CSL, while administrative requests should be sent to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@ SRI-CSL. This change is necessary due to the increasing downtime of MIT-AI. The previous mailboxes at MIT-AI will continue to function, but since that host is experiencing difficulties you are advised to use the new addresses at SRI-CSL. Jim ------------------------------ Date: 9 Aug 1982 2209-MDT From: William Galway Subject: Here's plot, where's story? I'm trying to locate a short story that I last read about 11 years ago. It concerns a group of travelers in a sort of "mathematical spaceship"--a machine used to travel into abstract mathematical worlds. I seem to recall that the ship was called a "mathescope", or perhaps the travelers were known as "mathenauts". The tone of the story was humorous and made a point of how you needed to be crazy to be a good mathenaut. The crew of the ship included a bunch of "mundanes" (undergrads in the social sciences?) just to balance things out--without them all sorts of wild things would happen to space/time/topology/... within the ship. I thought this story was included in one of the two volumes edited by Clifton Fadiman: "Fantasia Mathematica" or "The Mathematical Magpie", but can't find it in either one. Does anyone know the title of the story and where it can be found? ------------------------------ Date: 10 Aug 1982 0754-EDT From: Joseph A. Frisbie Subject: Lem. I too have read a lot of Lem's books. Below are a few reviews, please forive me for not remembering the names. The Star Diaries relate the adventures of Ijon Tichy, as he wends his way through the universe. Actually a collection of discrete episodes, The Cyberiad is the story of two "constructors", and again is a collection of short episodes. I consider this along with the star diaries to be the "best of Lem". At one point our two constructors are competing to out build one another, and the protagonist, Tur ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 10 August 1982 01:17-EDT From: Vince Fuller Subject: here's the plot... Sounds like "A for Andromeda" by Silverberg(?). --vaf [ In reference to the query that appeared in issue 33. -- Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 05-Aug-1982 From: PATRICK TABER@KIRK Reply-to: "PATRICK TABER@KIRK c/o" Subject: HHGttG I was excited to see notes from other parts of the country saying that Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy was being aired on TV, so I called the WGBH Community Relations office to ask them about it, and they tell me that WGBH will start airing it on October 16 (a Saturday). If this pleases you as much as it does me, you might want to write them a check to say thank-you and to encourage further programming of this kind. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 1982 03:15:29-PDT From: pur-ee!Physics.els at Berkeley Subject: SF TV: Starlost I'd like to hear some stuff on Starlost. I watched the show avidly, but it has been just too long for me to remember much. Thanx in advance. els [Eric Strobel] pur-ee!pur-phy!els ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jul 1982 2345-EDT From: Paul Czarnecki Reply-to: "PZ@OZ"@AI Subject: Vendorless Idiot Frames 1) After a particularly grueling session at the lab, I needed food. So I headed to the fastfood place, but,... I never made it. I had some quarters in my pocket, and the arcade was right there. I had a big PAC-attack. or... 2) After a particularly grueling session at the arcade, I needed food. So I headed to the fastfood place, but,... I never made it. The new program was just installed, and Tech Square was right there. I had a big MAC-attack. pZ Paul Allan Czarnecki ^ ^ ^ | | | ------------------------------ Date: 10 Aug 1982 01:30:50-PDT From: ihuxl!ignatz at Berkeley Subject: Anyone for Creationism? Just a bit of a correction to the note that went out to fa.sf-lovers and net.sf-lovers: The whole week rate for the World Science Fiction Convention, CHICON 82, is $75.00, not $70.00 as stated in the note. Ah, well, it's not much of a difference... More to the point, and the reason this is going to other newsgroups... The convention, which will run over Labor Day weekend (details available on request) has a number of concurrent events every day, called Tracks. One of the types of events that are traditionally supported are debates of controversial issues, and this year is no exception. However, it is important to be sure both sides of a debate are fairly and strongly represented. This year, there is a panel on Sunday of that weekend which promises to be both interesting and spirited; it is entitled, "Resolved: Creationism is Based on Solid Scientific Foundations". However, a slight problem so far is that we're having trouble finding people who sincerely and seriously believe this. Now, 'Advocatus Diaboli' can work well--and if worse comes to worst, this will happen--but we quite honestly would love to have someone come forth who can provide an intelligent, cogent, and informed presentation and debate as an advocate of this position. Your views will be respected, but be prepared to stand up to a classic debate--i.e., your stand will be challenged and questioned. Polemic and name-calling are NOT the order of business, however; this is a panel with the purpose of exhibiting rational arguments on both sides of the fence, and giving the audience a clear presentation of each stance so that it can make up its mind. The panel is currently scheduled for Sunday afternoon at 4:00 PM on Sept. 5th. The current stance of the Convention Committee is that speakers/debaters will not be paid a fee to attend. However, other things are negotiable, including your membership at the convention. So. Do you honestly believe in Creationism? Do you know someone who does, and is qualified? Are you willing to present and debate on the issue? If so, please return mail to me at this address, and thanks from Chicon '82. Dave Ihnat ihuxl!ignatz ------------------------------ Date: 9 Aug 1982 17:58:43-EDT From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX Subject: Boston GLOBE article on SF Was not as bad as some mundane articles I've seen---but most of the poorer ones were in small-town papers. The article was riddled with correctable errors (some of them were the result of the author trying to display her erudition and had no real relevance to the story). It started well and petered out rapidly; I may see about getting a copy on the net for everyone to laugh at. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Aug 1982 2013-EDT From: Margot Flowers Subject: Science News on "The Secret of NIMH" From Science News of Aug 7, 1982 (vol 122 # 6), entitled "The (Real) Secret of NIMH" by Wray Herbert: ... although the origins of the original story have been obscured by time, several clues indicate that it was based closely on the work of NIMH [National Institute of Mental Health] psychologist John B. Calhoun, who in 1971 was conducting one of the most elaborate studies of rat behavior ever undertaken. Calhoun, who conducted his research at the NIMH laboratory in Poolesville, Md. (a rural setting not unlike the settings for the book and movie), has recently completed his protracted study of rats, and the (real) secret of NIMH is that he did indeed create a colony of cultivated rats -- rats, Calhoun says, with "values" as high as any human values. As Calhoun describes his yet unpublished findings, the parallels between the experimental and fictional rats of NIMH become difficult to resist. The article proceeds to describe some story details that suggest the plot was based on Calhoun's work. But the main part of the (short) article sketches how Calhoun manipulated the rats' environment to require cooperation (i.e. two rats needed to be present to get water from the fountain), and the effects of this on things such as child rearing and treatment of strangers. The rats became "more relaxed, more altruistic, more compassionate" to the point that some of the rats "... were willing to help a stranger who kept wounding them until they died. That's as high a value as any that humans have developed." ------------------------------ Date: 05-Aug-1982 From: DAVE PORTER AT SMAUG Reply-to: "DAVE PORTER AT SMAUG c/o" Subject: Hmmm... Matthew Lecin (SFL 6 #15) thinks, with regard to TRON, that it will be interesting to see how the glorification of crashing the system "effects the next phase of kids getting into computers". Interesting indeed! Or did he mean "affects"... dave ------------------------------ Date: "6-AUG-1982 16:40 " From: ALIEN::BALLENGER Reply-to: "ALIEN::BALLENGER c/o" Subject: "Destination Moon" In volume 6 issue 26, Nathaniel Borenstein asked about the brains behind the movie, "Destination Moon". I'm pretty sure the screenplay was written by Robert A. Heinlien. I think it was based on one of his stories of the same name. ------------------------------ Date: 05-Aug-1982 From: DAVE PORTER AT SMAUG Reply-to: "DAVE PORTER AT SMAUG c/o" Subject: Blade Runner is a violent film? Wow! The reviews say that Blade Runner is a film full of gratuitous violence. Since I didn't notice it at the time, this must mean that it's too late for me -- I must be already corrupted. Oh well, time to go beat up the wife... dave ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, August 10, 1982 6:24AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Subject: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The last message in this digest discuss some plot details in the movie Blade Runner. Some readers may not wish to read on. ------------------------------ Date: 05-Aug-1982 From: DAVE PORTER AT SMAUG Reply-to: "DAVE PORTER AT SMAUG c/o" Subject: blade runner Just got back from holidaze, and am wandering through the piles of SF-Lovers that are waiting... Saw a comment from Steven Gutfreund at MIT-OZ that "... Blade Runner is a superb execution of a Phil K. Dick story." I beg to differ. "Blade Runner" was indeed an enjoyable film, but the plot of "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep" has been flattened into two-dimensionality by the screenplay. Why was Deckard portrayed as a hard-bitten private eye in the film? In the book he was very much a product of the consumer society (wakes up in morning, dials his mood-for-the-day on his Penfield), which I think. Maybe this isn't important, but I think that Dick's concern with the role of a person in a huge impersonal society doesn't show through as well. Also, whatever happened to Mercerism? This is a religion which only humans can supposedly comprehend, since it involves the mysterious empathy which androids are denied... although Mercerism may in fact be a fake. The sentimental ending of the film is *awful*. And also unlikely. The corporation couldn't make an android without the 2-4 year lifetime limitation - because they'd never solved the problem of cell replacement. If they had such a well-developed solution, then you can be sure they'd have already flooded the market with long lifetime androids. This mail has been a bit of a rant, but I hope the message is clear: go read the book! (And try to buy one without 'now a movie' written on the cover). Some answers to Steven Gutfreunds queries: People have, by and large, left the Earth. Only a few people are left; some who have chosen to stay, and some who have been refused permission to leave because they are "special" (i.e. substandard types). The androids are used off-planet as slaves, which they not unnaturally resent. Some androids, in escaping, found it necessary to kill humans; this is what has led to their being banned from Earth. I don't know who it is that's fighting out around Orion. Last point: anyone out there got a copy of "The Cosmic Puppets" that they'd like to sell me? My Philip K. Dick collection needs it desperately! dave ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 12-Aug Grath #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #38 *** EOOH *** Date: Thursday, August 12, 1982 6:27AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #38 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Schauble.Multics at MIT-MULTICS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 10 Aug 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 38 Today's Topics: SF Books - Ursula LeGuin & Query Answered & Courtship Rite & Crystal Singer & The Robot Who Looked Like Me & Kingsbane & The Elfstones of Shannara, SF Topics - Holographic Memory, Humor - Genderless Video Games, Spoiler - Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 Aug 82 19:51-PDT From: mclure at SRI-UNIX Subject: Ursula Le Guin alive? Our local SF shop Future Fantasy says they haven't heard of any Le Guin obit and one of their employees/friends lives in Portland where Le Guin lives. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Aug 1982 16:45:46 EDT (Tuesday) From: Winston B. Edmond Subject: Reply to Steve Alexander Steve, Perhaps the book you are thinking about is A For Andromeda, by Fred Hoyle. -WBE ------------------------------ Date: 11 Aug 1982 16:39:39-EDT From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX Subject: plot/title query This sounds somewhat like A FOR ANDROMEDA, except that they build the computer (per instructions) almost immediately and spend the rest of the book occasionally regretting it. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Aug 82 16:42-PDT From: mclure at SRI-UNIX Subject: sf column SCIENCE FICTION By Roland J. Green (c) 1982 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service) In ''Courtship Rite'' (Timescape-Simon & Schuster, $17.50 hardcover, $8.95 trade paperback), Donald Kingsbury, a Canadian, has worked on a grand scale and achieved impressive success. The book combines imaginative world-building, fascinating characters, and an absorbing if somewhat convoluted story, as well as grace, wit, and the intelligent use of the English language. The world of the story is the harsh, metal-poor planet Geta. Its human colonists have survived over the centuries only by the use of advanced techniques of genetic engineering and the rigorous culling of those with low kalothi - low genetic potential for survival - preferably before they can reproduce. Ritual suicide and cannibalism play large parts in this culling process. Three brothers who have formed a group marriage with two wives seek a third wife. The most important leader of their clan desires their first choice for himself, and sends them after another woman, a religious leader preaching a heretical opposition to cannibalism. The brothers decide to put the woman through a series of seven ordeals; if she passes all of them, she will have proved her high kalothi and her fitness to be their ''three-wife.'' This simple plan for courtship is progressively complicated by the schemes and ambitions of the clan leader, a seafaring clan using genetic engineering to back a plan of conquest, and a cloned female assassin. Kingsbury has done his homework on just about everything he puts into the book. Particularly notable are his convincing and amusing portrait of the dynamics of a group marriage and his intelligent treatment of religion and the religious mentality. Science fiction has too often been tolerant of ignorance or outright prejudice against religion; Kingsbury cannot be faulted here. A nice satirical touch is the Getan reaction to a newly discovered history of the wars of the legendary planet Earth; they are horrified at leaders who killed more enemies than they could eat before the corpses rotted! (No, ''Courtship Rite'' is not for the squeamish.) Anne McCaffrey's ''Crystal Singer'' (Del Rey-Ballantine, $2.95 paperback) has no dragons, but it has all of McCaffrey's gifts for world-building and characterization. Killashandra Ree, denied her hoped-for musical career, turns her talent to seeking crystal on the planet Ballybran. The crystal is vital to the galactic economy, and those who discover and test it with their singing are among the best-rewarded workers around. They also undergo irreversible physiological changes which bind them to crystal singing and the crystal planet for the rest of their lives. The novel suffers from one major problem, imposed on McCaffrey and a host of other SF writers by the low rates paid for short science fiction. There is great financial pressure to assemble one's short pieces into novels whenever possible, and McCaffrey has done exactly that; ''Crystal Singer'' was originally four novellas published in a series of anthologies edited by Roger Elwood. As a result, McCaffrey winds up with four conflicts to resolve instead of just one, making some parts of the story, such as Killashandra's becoming the lover of the leader of the crystal singers, seem to happen too fast or too easily. She is much too good a writer for this to be other than an excellent book in spite of the seams, but they do show. BRIEF NOTES: ''The Robot Who Looked Like Me,'' by Robert Sheckley (Bantam, $2 paperback) contains 13 short stories demonstrating Sheckley's unique brands of satire and sheer zaniness. ''Kingsbane,'' by John Morressy (Playboy Paperbacks, $2.50), is a well-told, straightforward fantasy-adventure quest novel, the conclusion of a trilogy but eminently readable on its own. Particularly recommended for readers just getting their feet wet in heroic fantasy. ''The Elfstones of Shannara,'' by Terry Brooks (Del ReyBallantine, $15.95 hardcover, $7.95 trade paperback), is a gigantic fantasy novel, sequel to Brooks' best-selling ''Sword of Shannara.'' It's certain to be popular with people who liked the first one. Brooks still rambles, but many scenes rise to great power. ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 10 August 1982 13:20-PDT From: KDO at SRI-KL Subject: More holograms Holograms store information, and a lot of it is redundant. (you could make a hologram which projects a different, unrelated image in each direction, rather than a different view on the same scene.) If you cut out half the hologram, half the information is destroyed (for example you can't move your head as far to look around things). The information is redundantly stored you can recover a lot, but this is not the same as one piece information being stored distributed over the whole image (I guess I am trying to distinguish between distributing the information and duplicating it). When people say that memory is holographic, I assume that does not mean the same thing as highly redundant. Ken ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 1982 1636-PDT From: FEATHER at USC-ISIF (Martin S. Feather) Subject: extraterrestial video games What's the E.T. version of Pacman? sPACeman. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jul 1982 1919-PDT From: Henry W. Miller Subject: Pac Humour What do you get when you cross Ms. Pacman with Bo Derek? A Pac-Ten. -HWM ------------------------------ Date: 29 July 1982 00:55-EDT From: Charles F. Von Rospach Subject: genderless video games If you are getting VERY tired of not-very-funny puns based on certain unnamed video games, do you tell the joke tellers to PAC it up? *ugh* ------------------------------ Date: 29-JUL-1982 19:37 From: TSC::COORS::VICKREY Reply-to: "TSC::COORS::VICKREY c/o" Subject: PacPuns To all PacPunners: I don't mind the puns, some of them are even good (and Bog knows it's no where near as bad as the RotLA jokes last summer!), but I do have one little complaint. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!STOP APOLOGISING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If your going to pun, then PUN, and enjoy it! susan ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jul 1982 2020-PDT From: Henry W. Miller Subject: TIP-TAC's To whom ever sent that pun in: that was very TACky of you. -HWM ------------------------------ Date: 28 July 1982 09:58-PDT (Wednesday) From: KING at KESTREL Subject: untitled I haven't seen any Pacmen at the video arcades lately. I guess they're all playing Pacgammon. ------------------------------ Date: 4 August 1982 10:31-PDT (Wednesday) From: KING at KESTREL Subject: I can't seem to stop What is a giant PacMan who goes around knocking down trees in Africa? A PacHyderm ------------------------------ Date: 4 August 1982 17:13-EDT (Wednesday) From: David H. Kaufman Subject: [MILLER: PAC humour] Date: Wednesday, 28 July 1982 20:38-EDT From: Henry W. Miller Re: PAC humour What does a PACMAN do in the great outdoors? Why, he goes back-pacing... -HWM And what does he sing while he does it? ``If somehow you could Pac up your sorrows ...'' ------------------------------ Date: 4 August 1982 17:15-EDT (Wednesday) From: David H. Kaufman Subject: Pac Humor What're the pacpeople's favorite football teams? The Pac-10, of course! - Dave ------------------------------ Date: 05-Aug-1982 From: DAVE PORTER AT SMAUG Reply-to: "DAVE PORTER AT SMAUG c/o" Subject: Pax PACk it in, will you? ------------------------------ Date: 11 Aug 1982 1852-EDT From: Hobbit Subject: Sigh If you were to take a mess of those little white styrofoam frobs that they use for shipping material, paint them yellow with little black wedges, what would you wind up with? PACing peanuts. Again: *Sigh*. _H* ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, August 12, 1982 6:27AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Subject: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The last message in this digest discuss some plot details in the movie Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. Some readers may not wish to read on. ------------------------------ Date: 10 August 1982 0834-PDT (Tuesday) From: andrews at UCLA-Security (Richard Andrews) Subject: "Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan" HUMOR and SPOILER Is anyone else out there tired of reading first-grade level humor in this digest? (I'm referring to "Genderless Video Game" one-liners of the form: "Does a Pac-man by his cigarettes by the carton? No, he buys them by the Pac.") Below, I've made an attempt at humor of a bit higher level of sophistication: the limerick. These were inspired by some of the spoilers I've read in this digest concerning Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan, so unfortunately these are spoilers also. I've done a bit of thinking about Spock's last mind-meld with McCoy and the theory that his memory is being kept in the doctor's brain. Although we all saw Spock was dead, Along comes this theory instead- While his body rests easy His mind lies uneasy With the illogic in McCoy's head. I think this is quite a strange fate, But the good folks at Paramount debate: "Since Spock has no equal Bring him back for a sequel Or six, or seven, or eight." I wonder just what Bones would say When he learns of the role he must play. Quite often he'll find He's got Spock on his mind But it's never happened quite THIS way. It will most likely come as a shock To learn he's got something of Spock's. He'll probably say In his inimitable way, "I'm a doctor not a safe-deposit box!!!" Rich Andrews andrews@ucla-security ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 12-Aug Grath #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #39 *** EOOH *** Date: Thursday, August 12, 1982 5:15PM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #39 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Schauble.Multics at MIT-MULTICS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 11 Aug 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 39 Today's Topics: SF Lovers - De-Digestify Program, SF Books - The Avatar & New Lensman & Subspace Explorers & Dream Park, SF TV - HHGttG, SF Movies - The Secret of NIMH, Random Topics - Violence in Movies, Humor - Worldcon Bid, Spoiler - Dream Park ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tuesday, 10 August 1982 13:11-PDT From: KDO at SRI-KL Subject: De-concatenating prog BABYL, the EMACS-based mail-reader has a command to "undigestify" messages and runs under TENEX. Of course then you have to use BABYL to read your mail with, but that is a win anyway. I suppose if you don't like that solution you could extract the TECO code that does the undigestify and make a separate program out of it... Ken ------------------------------ Date: 10 August 1982 10:25-PDT (Tuesday) From: KING at KESTREL Subject: De-concatenating prog BABYL (a mail reader that runs under EMACS) has an M-X undigestify command. BABYL also has other nice features, such as putting keywords on messages to allow you to survey messages that you previously abelled. Run XINFO, and ask for info on EMACS and then on BABYL in the EMACS menu. Dick ------------------------------ Date: 08/10/82 1308-EDT From: Karl G. Heinemann (SORCEROR at LL) Subject: Poul Anderson's "The Avatar"; response to William Westfield's Subject: review RE: The review of Poul Anderson's "The Avatar", appearing in SFL Digest Volume 6, Issue 32: Once again, I find myself agreeing with most of the comments which were presented, but strongly motivated to express different opinions about some of the details. Yes, this novel contains many worthwhile ideas, and it attempts to weave them together into a holistic vision of physical wonder, enthusiasm about life, eroticism, and libertarianism. Despite the novel's lofty ambitions, I too, came away from it feeling disappointed. Worse yet, I don't really understand why it didn't work. "The Avatar" suffers from some preachiness, but is only a mild offender. And yes, the alien contact scenes did seem dismayingly reminiscent of "Star Trek: The Motion Picture." The more significant difficulty may lie in a lack of intensity about the portrayals of the protagonists' emotions and and interactions. However, I question the assertion, in this case that the inclusion of sexual encounters constitutes padding. "The Avatar" advocates both political/economic libertarianism and romantic/erotic libertarianism. The presence of both issues as prominent themes serves to point out that both positions originate from a common philosophical outlook, and should stand or fall together. The author should be credited for conveying this major point with very little preaching. This novel also stresses the value of sexuality as an avenue of personal expression, as a means of intimacy and psychological support, and as an outlet for emotional tension. The sexual scenario which develops after the protagonists become lost in the T-machine network might very well be a practical necessity which enables them to cope with the psychological problems of isolation and uncertainty. The presence of sex scenes does not seem totally inappropriate in a novel where sexuality is a major theme. The number and frequency of such scenes may be a valid issue, but also seems picayune. Despite its flaws, "The Avatar" impressed me with its efforts to address the emotional problems which surround much contemporary dialectic about sexual freedom. The issues of romantic commitment, possessiveness, jealousy, etc. are neither denied nor casually dismissed, but are accepted as authentic elements of of the contemporary human condition, which will require serious attention from the romantic/erotic libertarian. "The Avatar" is valuable for its presentation non-monogamous sexuality, one which seems much more realistic and balanced than that given by Robert Heinlein. Enjoy, Karl Heinemann ------------------------------ Date: 10 Aug 1982 09:05 PDT From: Stewart at PARC-MAXC Subject: William Ellern New Lensman I came across a complete novel "New Lensman" by William Ellern recently in a used book store, and snatched it up. It seems to include "Moon Prospector." It is quite good. Now if I could only find "A Nice Day for Screaming, and Other Tales of the Hub," by Schmitz... ------------------------------ Date: 10 Aug 1982 1044-PDT From: Tom Wadlow Subject: Subspace Explorers by Doc Smith While in Boston on business, I picked up a copy of \Subspace Explorers/ by Doc Smith. I had never heard of it before, but I would recommend it to anyone who (like me) wants to round out their E.E. Smith collection. \Subspace Explorers/ was written in the early 1960s and combines the Skylark/Lensman style of space opera with the technology of that period. (In other words, the he-men with arms the size of a strong man's legs use lasers and computers). The first thing that I noticed about this book was that Smith fell in love with partial abbreviations. For example: a company called Galactic Metals is perpetually referred to as GalMet. Same for WarnOil, MetEnge, InStell and far too many more than you might think possible. The plot concerns psionic powers, trade union politics, FTL travel, hardrock mining, planet-sized factories, and communism. It's not a Skylark or Lensman, but if you loved those, you'll like this one. It may not be easy to find, however. The copy I found in Boston did NOT have a US price on the cover. Apparently, these were European or Australian (I don't have it here to check). The company publishing Subspace Explorers is also reprinting all of the other E.E. Smith novels as well, so there is a good chance all will show up if any of them do. --Tom ------------------------------ Date: 02-Aug-1982 From: JAMES CALLAN at CADVAX Reply-to: "JAMES CALLAN at CADVAX c/o" Subject: Review of DREAM PARK Micro-Review - Very good book. Disappointing ending. I read Larry Niven's new book "Dream Park" recently, and thought I'd pass my opinions along to the SFL Digest. I haven't seen much comment on this book, and I'd like to know if others share my opinion. My quarrel with the book is the plot-within-a-plot approach that Niven & Pournelle have used. The inner plot is the South Seas Adventure, which is a D & D type game. This was obviously the central theme of the book, and was my favorite part. The outer plot is a whodunnit murder mystery. The whodunnit murder mystery is the excuse for showing us all of the South Seas Adventure. However, it is poorly thought out, and poorly executed. A whodunnit should provide the interested reader with enough clues to figure out the mystery before the end of the book. The reader's reaction should be "Oh! Of COURSE!" That was NOT the case in this book. It's a shame that the outer framework for this book should be so half-assed, when the rest of it is so good. I would definitely recommend this book to most SF fans, and people who are into video games (is that redundant?). However, I would warn them to read it for the South Seas Adventure sequences, and to ignore the murder mystery. - Jamie Callan CALLAN @ CADVAX ------------------------------ Date: 10 Aug 1982 (Tuesday) 1415-EDT From: PLATTS at Wharton-10 (Steve Platt) Subject: HGttG, Phila PA ...spoke this morning with WHYY programming people, and after convincing them I was *not* referring to the radio serial, they checked their schedules... ...It will (supposedly) be shown this October, date and time uncertain. So we have to wait, better than not at all... I had fears they'd start showing it during Worldcon... -Steve ------------------------------ Date: 11 Aug 1982 16:38:44-EDT From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX Subject: HhGttG in Boston I just called WGBH TV programming and they told me it was planned to start in the early part of October. We'll see. . . . ------------------------------ Date: 10 Aug 1982 22:46:44-PDT From: CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley Subject: NIMH anti-technology I think denouncing the anti-technology slant in The Secret of NIMH (the animals, you see, aren't fond of being experimented on), as James Jones (decvax!duke!uok!uokvax!jejones) wants to do, is a little paranoid, and smacks of the same defensiveness that had George Will knocking ET not long ago. I mean, are the animals supposed to LIKE being pained for the good of Man? It's a hard question, to be sure. I don't much care for the thought of paralyzed cats having their eyeballs sutured to rings (for instance), but then again I would prefer to be safe from cancer. If you're worried about the kiddies, then lets make sure they develope the proper attitude about it, which means giving them a little respect for both ends of the scalpel. Trying to hide the facts of life from isn't going to do it. Steve ------------------------------ Date: 10-Aug-82 5:10PM-EDT (Tue) From: B.J. Herbison Subject: Re: Violence [SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #35] People don't seem to mind the violence on the Roadrunner cartoons, or even in Bugs Bunny's life. But when they perceive violence in Bladerunner for instance, they get all bent out of shape. (not all people of course...) Roadrunner: The events are fantastic - most could not happen in real life. Bladerunner: The events are often possible in real life. R: Wile E. Coyote gets crushed by a rock and walks away - there is no lasting pain. B: People get hurt and killed by the violence. R: The characters are obviously cartoons. They are not living creatures. B: The characters are people, or at least intelligent beings, with a will to survive. and the most important difference: R: The Roadrunner would not seek to hurt, he would just go along being his carefree self and the coyote would get himself in trouble. (This was true when I was young, it seems that in the newer cartoons Roadrunner is sadistic. Oh, well.) B: The character try to kill and injure each other, knowing the pain they will cause. There are differences between the violence in Roadrunner cartoons and the violence in Bladerunner. I will continue to watch both, but I still would prefer less violence in Bladerunner (which is not as violent as some other films). B.J. Herbison-BJ@Yale decvax!yale-comix!herbison-bj ------------------------------ Date: 10 Aug 82 19:06:34-EDT (Tue) From: Mark Weiser Subject: violence I AM bothered by the violence in road-runner cartoons, and so are my children. ------------------------------ Date: 10 August 1982 19:36 cdt From: VaughanW at HI-Multics (Bill Vaughan) Subject: upcoming worldcon bid You know, it doesn't have to be in Philadelphia at all ... just move it to the day after the autumnal equinox (Sep 22 (?), 2000) and then it'll be the Millenium FallCon. ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, August 12, 1982 5:15PM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Subject: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The last message in this digest discuss some plot details in the book Dream Park. Some readers may not wish to read on. ------------------------------ Date: 02-Aug-1982 From: JAMES CALLAN at CADVAX Reply-to: "JAMES CALLAN at CADVAX c/o" Subject: Review of DREAM PARK ***** SPOILER WARNING **** ***** SPOILER WARNING ****** Instead, the ending involves a bizarre love triangle between the victim (who we don't know much about), another character who appears very briefly, and a third person who never appears in the book. It's the sort of ending that leaves you saying "Huh?" The reader couldn't ever have been expected to figure this mystery out. In fact, the authors have deliberately rigged it that way. Aren't they clever??? - Jamie Callan CALLAN @ CADVAX ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 14-Aug Grath #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #39a *** EOOH *** Date: Saturday, August 14, 1982 3:14AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #39a To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Schauble.Multics at MIT-MULTICS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 12 Aug 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 39a Today's Topics: Administrivia - Opinions from SU-LOTS, SF Topics - Opinions from SU-LOTS ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Saturday, August 14, 1982 3:14AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS-REQUEST at SRI-CSL Subject: Opinions from SU-LOTS The following material is from the BBoard at SU-LOTS, and was submitted by Stuart M. Cracraft (mclure at SRI-UNIX). It was thought to be of interest to the readership. Since LOTS is not on the net, responses cannot be made to the original submitters - however, people should feel free to discuss the topics and issues raised. Jim ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jul 1982 2234-PDT From: Judy Anderson Subject: Re: More Science Fiction Novels Rated However I would not say that Heinlein's character Lazarus Long would be so right wing. I don't think this character would favor the Human Life Amendment, entirely a creation of the right wing. From what I gather in Time Enough For Love and Methuselah's Children he is more of an anarchist than anything else. Also you can't deny that he has written his share of crap - most of his children's novels are not very good. Judy. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jul 1982 0727-PDT From: M.McLure at SU-LOTS (Stuart M. Cracraft) Subject: Heinlein's juveniles Judy, you're definitely in the minority on this one. Many major SF critics (Nicholls, Clute, etc.) have remarked that Heinlein's juveniles ROCKET SHIP GALILEO, SPACE CADET, RED PLANET, FARMER IN THE SKY, BETWEEN PLANETS, THE ROLLING STONES, STARMAN JONES, THE STAR BEAST, TUNNEL IN THE SKY, TIME FOR THE STARS, CITIZEN OF THE GALAXY, HAVE SPACE SUIT - WILL TRAVEL are the most important contribution any writer has made to children's SF and that the best of these, such as STARMAN JONES, THE STAR BEAST, and CITIZEN OF THE GALAXY, have a strong appeal for adult readers as well as youngsters, and some critics consider them to be his finest works. The only one I've read is CITIZEN OF THE GALAXY which I thought was quite well done. Stuart ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jul 1982 0910-PDT From: P.PHIGMENT at SU-LOTS Subject: Stuart's message I don't know that STARMAN JONES would qualify as one of his best juveniles, but I agree otherwise. pH (p.phigment) ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jul 1982 0939-PDT From: Stacia Subject: Heinlein's juvenile novels I read most of them when I was in junior high/high school and enjoyed them immensely, though of course it might be that I just happen to really like his style... Stacia ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jul 1982 1009-PDT From: Richard Treitel Subject: The King Chalk up another fan of Heinlein's "juvenile" novels -- I've read more of them than I can remember, including "Space Cadet". Come to think of it, most of his books that I have read qualify as "juvenile." Presumably his publisher s thought that only teenagers would read this c**p. - Richard ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jul 1982 1207-PDT From: Abe Fisher Subject: Heinlein's greasy kid stuff I find, perhaps as I get older and think I am getting wiser, that the novels I started S-F with, namely Heinlein's juvenile books, are distinctly less appealing than they were. Now, granted, that has something to do with my age, but even so, with the possible exception of PODKAYNE OF MARS and maybe CITIZEN OF THE GALAXY, my interest in these books wayned immediately following the first reading, which is not the case for most of his adult novels, not to mention most decent books by other authors (i.e.Larry Niven, Poul Anderson). Sorry about the spacing on this message; the space bar is bouncing and giving me a headache. abe ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jul 1982 0909-PDT From: Tom Robinson Subject: Juvenile SF novels To throw in another opinion regarding sf novels: Panshin's RITE OF PASSAGE is by far the best juvenile, or better term here, young adult, sf novel I have ever read. It was recommended to me by an 11-year-old. Believe it was recently given an A here. Heinlein's RED PLANET is pretty entertaining. (The only Heinlein young adult one I have read.) Andre Norton has a slough (slew?), er, a whole bunch, of young adult sf novels to her credit. I enjoyed them in junior high, but I doubt I would now. Tom Robinson U.USED2 ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jul 1982 1427-PDT From: "Ross Nelson" Subject: female F&SF authors I agree with the statement made earlier that not only is U.K. LeGuin the best female SF writer, she is one of the best SF writers alive today. There are also a couple others that I like very much: Patricia McKillip - excellent storyteller, favors story over characterization at times. Author of the "Riddle of Stars" trilogy, available in singles as: "Riddlemaster of Hed", "Harpist in the Wind", and "Heir of Sea and Fire" Katherine Kurtz - another very good storyteller with strong characters. Author of a the 6 book Deryni series: Deryni trilogy - "Deryni Rising", "Deryni Checkmate", and "High Deryni" Camber trilogy - "Camber of Culdi", "Saint Camber", and "Camber the Heretic" Anne McCaffrey - variable ranging from excellant to poor, her best; the Dragonriders of Pern series: "Dragonflight", "Dragonquest", and "The White Dragon". There is also a related trilogy that is almost as good: "Dragondrums", "Dragonsinger", and "Dragondrums" I won't list my LeGuin favorites because I've only read one of her books that I didn't care for (out of nine) and that was her recent non-SF book "Malefrena". I though she had a good potential book but it dragged. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jul 1982 1828-PDT From: Henry Perkins Subject: Female SF authors What about Vonda McIntyre, whose "Dreamsnake" won a Hugo? Or Kate Wilhelm, who got a prize for "When Late the Sweet Birds Sang"? Probably the best way to start reading science fiction is to begin with those works that have won a Hugo (awarded annually by fans for their favorite short story, novelette, novella, and novel of the past year) or Nebula (ditto by authors). If you're interested in female authors, this still applies -- why not begin with the best? --Henry ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jul 1982 1441-PDT From: "Ross Nelson" Subject: more F&SF If anyone's still interested, here are some of the male-authored SF that I enjoy. First, some that I consider classics: John Brunner's "Stand on Zanzibar" ranks with "1984" and "Brave New World" as anti-utopias. Walter Miller's "A Canticle for Leibowitz" is the best 'post- armageddon' novel I've read. Stanislaw Lem's "The Cyberiad" can not be classified, but its a masterpiece. It's not neccessary, but I'll add to the above list: Dune (and sons), Lord of the Rings, and the aforementioned 1984 and Brave New World. Some others, which are not classics, but make very good reading are: John Brunner's "Shockwave Rider" Steven Donaldson's Thomas Covenant tales (I've read 4 out of 6) C.S. Lewis's trilogy "Out of the Silent Planet", "Perelandra", and "That Hideous Strength" Rodger Zelazny's Chronicle's of Amber (I've read all 5 and thought that the last was the weakest)m ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jul 1982 2356-PDT From: Eric Subject: sf There is one author, a newcomer, whom no one has mentioned: James P. Hogan. His books reflect such a high degree of both story-telling ability and of science prediction based on current fact that all of his books, with the exception of the most recently published " Yesteryear" (a true dog), rank as "A" works of science fiction in my book. Hogan originally worked for DEC before turning to writing, and so computers often play a key role in his novels (a fact which makes this comment pertinent for BBoard @ Lots). For reference, my favorite SF author is Larry Niven. Eric ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jul 1982 0958-PDT From: M.McLure at SU-LOTS (Stuart M. Cracraft) Subject: sf author Hogan I've read a few of his books and thought they were awful. Oh sure, the science is extremely well thought out, but the characters introduce themselves by reciting their resumes. Character development is totally lacking! I've given up on him until someone tells me he can create believable and interesting characters. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jul 1982 0617-PDT From: P.PHIGMENT at SU-LOTS Subject: sf My favorite is Larry Niven, too, Eric. However, the real reason I am writing is to complain. Isn't anyone going to mention one of the guys who helped get sf started back in the forties? the 'Historian of Civilisation', whose Skylark and Lensmen series are aknowledged classics? Does anyone else out there love E.E."Doc" Smith? pH (p.phigment) ------------------------------ Date: 10 Aug 1982 2258-EDT From: Larry Seiler Subject: That old-timer, Isaac Asimov It was comments like the one about Isaac being an "old-timer" (he's publishing another SF book this fall) that moved him to write the following: I have the definite feeling that in the the world of science fiction I am a national monument and that young readers are always amazed - and perhaps even indignant - to find that I am still alive. (from the introduction to Buy Jupiter) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 15-Aug Grath #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #40 *** EOOH *** Date: Sunday, August 15, 1982 11:07PM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #40 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 13 Aug 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 40 Today's Topics: SF Books - Ursula LeGuin & Down to a Sunless Sea & Oath of Fealty & E.E. Smith & Dream Park & Query Answered, SF Topics - Psychology in SF, SF TV - Dr Who & HHGttG, SF Movie - Blade Runner, Spoiler - Blade Runner ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13-Aug-82 09:40-PDT From: JWAGNER at OFFICE Reply-to: {Jim Wagner } Subject: Ursula Le Guin alive? Ursula LeGuin might well borrow a quip from Mark Twain, who, after reading his own obituary, said: "The reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated." ------------------------------ Date: 13 Aug 1982 at 1204-PDT From: teklabs!tekcrd!bills at Berkeley Subject: Ursula LeGuin Ursula has been in Europe for the past few months. She has been working on something, but I don't know what. She will return to the Portland area in the near future. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 1982 1748-CDT From: CS.EMERSON at UTEXAS-20 Subject: Down to a Sunless Sea and Oath of Fealty I just read "Down to a Sunless Sea" by David Graham. It is a good doomsday type novel like "Alas, Babylon" or "Level 7". The timeframe is 1985. The USA has suffered an economic collapse. Lucky Americans are allowed to emigrate to Britain or W. Europe which still enjoy reasonably high standards of living. Unfortunately, hostilities erupt once again in the Mid-east... Interestingly, this novel will not be found in the science fiction section of your bookseller, but rather under general fiction. Nonetheless, it does contain many of the themes common to science fiction. (I also noticed that Niven & Pournelle's "Oath of Fealty" is also found in general fiction in many of the bookstores around here (Austin, Tex.). There is no indication on its cover that it is /science fiction/. Was this deliberate?) ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 82 9:15:06-PST (Sat) From: Tim Shimeall Subject: E.E. Smith Queries I am somewhat of an E.E. Smith fan, and have read quite a lot of his material. I have enjoyed the discussions in SF-LOVERS on his work, a lot. I have a couple of unanswered questions on his work, that people out there may be able to answer for me: 1) Where does \Spacehounds of the IPC/ fit into Smith's work? I have heard this one plugged as a Lensman book, but what I read of it did not seem to tie into the Lensman series at all, except possibly for the first book, Triplanetary. 2) Does anyone know where the "Family D'Alembert" series can be found? Is it in print? I have read the first book of this series, \Imperial Stars/, which is a posthumous collaboration between Smith and another author, but have been unable to track any of the others. One anthology I read of Smith's work listed 5-6 sequels, but diligent searching of Libraries and Bookstores has been to no avail. Tim Shimeall Tim.uci @ UDEL-RELAY ------------------------------ Date: 13 Aug 1982 1738-PDT From: mclure at SRI-UNIX Subject: review of dream park in thursday's digest It was not written by Niven & Pournelle... It was Steve Barnes who collaborated with Niven. Many think Barnes had the major hand in it because so much is uncharacteristic of Niven. I gave up on the book 50 pages in... too plastic a plot. ------------------------------ Date: 12 August 1982 12:19 cdt From: Bibbero.PMSDMKT at HI-Multics Subject: BLUEPRINTS FROM SPACE The "here's the plot, what's the story?" about the alien intelligence from space that transmitted a message giving the instructions how to build a machine of unknown properties, which was built by the Earth scientist decoding the message was by Fred Hoyle (and I think his son Geoffry Hoyle). The machine turned out to be an intelligent computer which then set about to conquer the earth as a representative of its galactic inventors. I forgot the name, might have been A for Andromeda. This kind of story doesn't help influence Congress to vote for large radio-telescope arrays to search for intelligent life in space, not that Congress reads science fiction or would vote for such a measure anyway. Cheers, Bob Bibbero (Bibbero.PMSDMKT at Hi-Multics) ------------------------------ Date: 12 August 1982 10:33 mst From: Lippard at PCO-MULTICS (James J. Lippard) Reply-to: Lippard%PCO-Multics at MIT-MULTICS Subject: Re: Psychology and SciFi A book which has a being with a different perception of the universe is 0X by Piers Anthony, the third in a trilogy (the first two books are titled Omnivore and Orn). The being is a pattern-creature, which "sees" other creatures as spots on its pattern. To other creatures it appears as sparkles in the air. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Aug 1982 1927-PDT From: Ganesha at OFFICE-1 Subject: Dr. Who in the Bay Area Dr. Who is on channell 54 in serial form every weeknight at 6:00 PM and in "feature" form (i.e., without the breaks every half hour) Saturday nights at 11:15. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 82 21:29:33 EDT (Sat) From: Steve Bellovin Subject: HhGttG Does anyone know if or when "Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galaxy" is playing in the N.Y. area? I'll be moving up there soon. --Steve ------------------------------ Date: 12 Aug 1982 1628-EDT From: John R. Covert Subject: HhGttG in Boston We seem to continue to get conflicting info. I just called WGBH again, made sure I was talking to TV, not radio programming, and asked about the show. They said that they do not currently plan to show it, but do not yet have their October schedule ready. Since they have been getting a lot of calls, they think they will probably show it. So don't get complacent yet. If you haven't called yet, give them a ring at 492-2777. Remember, they are PUBLIC television, and we are the public. ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, August 15, 1982 11:07PM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Subject: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The last messages in this digest discuss some plot details in the movie Blade Runner. Some readers may not wish to read on. ------------------------------ Date: Thu Aug 12 17:26:52 1982 From: decvax!utzoo!laura at Berkeley Subject: smallpox vaccination Seven years ago I received one before I was allowed to travel to Honduras. This was despite the fact that I had already had a smallpox vaccination when I was 3 or 4, because the appropriate records could not be found. My fourteen year old brother has already had a smallpox vaccination prior to going to Cuba. Maybe Canadian Immunization Laws are way behind the times, but this is the way it is here. Moral: keep your immunization records! who knows when you may have to submit to punctures and pains just because you *can't remember* whether your Rubella vaccination was done in the last 4 years and contained 'live' or 'dead' vaccine. Laura Creighton decvax!utzoo!laura ------------------------------ Date: 10 Aug 1982 1811-PDT From: Robert Amsler Subject: Smallpox shots in Bladerunner I don't think it was intentional that a smallpox vaccination appeared, but surely one can explain it away via any of a number of plausible means: E.g. The Smallpox outbreak of 1995, when a terrorist group stole the virus from a WHO medical facility -- and the reintroduction of vaccination to counter the results; or that it wasn't REALLY a smallpox vaccination, but a Martian-Plague virus shot, which is similar to smallpox and was brought back by some of the colonists; or that it isn't even a vaccination, but the scar left after a close encounter with an energy beam weapon or that ... If you want to pick at Bladerunner, one hole in the plot seems to be that replicants were very easy to recognize actually since their skin exhibited a remarkably superior resistance to boiling water than human skin. A simple physical test would have confirmed this rather than the elaborate psychological analysis method Decker used. Also, it seems illogical that the designers who encoded serial numbers on the scales of artificial snakes would not use a similar technique on replicants; if ONE replicant escaped and killed a human there would be an immediate remedy found for how one could quickly recognize replicants and this remedy would be introduced into the MANUFACTURING stage such that identification would never again be a problem. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Aug 1982 11:27:54 EDT (Thursday) From: Winston Edmond Subject: Blade Runner *** SPOILER *** The four year life span of the androids was clearly described in the movie as a design choice, not a technological limitation. Also, the androids' designers were called genetic engineers, not electrical engineers or programmers. The reason given for the four-year life span was this: the replicants' emotional development could not be sufficiently controlled to insure they would not become a threat to humans. The androids were given abilities that were as good as, or better than, the abilities of humans. In fact, the comment was made that the state of the art was such that androids were getting to be as intelligent as their designers. The problem was that the androids had no past. They could be created with knowledge, skills, and abilities, but without a lifetime of experience, they would not have the basis for emotional development. On the other hand, they were entirely able to feel emotions, and it was known that their emotions would develop given time. Since emotional development could not be controlled, they were potentially a threat to humans. After all, you are starting with replicants skilled in such things as guerrilla warfare tactics. It's hard to discipline a "child" that's more powerful and maybe more intelligent and cunning than the people around it. This lack of emotional development was what the "replicant detector box" detected. Things like involuntary pupil dilation and other emotional reactions to unlikely situations would distinguish a person from a replicant. The four year life span was chosen because they felt that that time was too short for the replicant to develop emotions that would be a threat to humans. It then was significant when we saw the replicants had developed families -- something the designers didn't think could happen. Drecker's replicant girl friend represented a technological breakthrough: she had been given a very detailed past, and consequently had been able to achieve significant emotional maturity. Thus the "detector box" showed little difference from a human and it took 120 increasingly subtle questions instead of the usual 20 or 30. She had been made without the four-year limit, because she was "safe", or at least safe enough to be worth taking the risk. Part of the question of the film, then, was that if such a replicant is now possible, could the world consider them as less than human? Could it justify using them as slaves? The whole point of the replicants' return to Earth was to extend their life span, which the film used to show that their aspirations were the same as that of people who lived many times as long. The only answer they were given was that they had seen and done things in their short life that most humans only dream of doing; that they would have to be content with that. -WBE ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 16-Aug Grath #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #41 *** EOOH *** Date: Monday, August 16, 1982 2:53AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #41 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 14 Aug 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 41 Today's Topics: SF Books - Here's the Plot...What's the Title & Stanislaw Lem & Starcrossed, SF TV - Starlost, Random Topics - Violence in Movies, Humor - Genderless Video Games ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Aug 1982 12:05:31-PDT From: jef at LBL-UNIX (Jef Poskanzer [rtsg]) Subject: Here's the plot, what's the title and where can I find it? The setting: a lonely navigation beacon on the Moon, a sort of 21st century lighthouse. The lone technician on duty there is out walking when he comes across a recent meteor crater. At the bottom is a bowling-ball sized rock, perfectly round. He brings the rock back into his station. As soon as he turns his back on it, it HATCHES! Soon he is battling a fast-growing, vacuum-breathing, INVISIBLE monster. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 1982 1609-EDT From: Joseph A. Frisbie Subject: Lem again Sorry about that last message. It got sent by mistake (miserable escape key...) I thought I sent a message asking it not to appear, but I guess our fearless moderator didn't get that, c'est la vie. [ The message referred to originally appeared in volume 6, issue 37. -- Jim ] I would recommend reading the Cyberaid, and The Star Diaries. These are in my opinion, the best of Lem. The Cyberaid is the story of two "constructors" that try to out construct each other. It is broken up into a series of episodes. One example that I remember is when Turl (sp?) out builds colleague by constructing an "N" machine, which builds anything that begins with an "N". This works out great except that Nothing begins with "N". One of the most enjoyable features of these books, are the names, puns, and plays on words, both verbal and visual (pretty good for a translated work). Two other stories I read weren't quite as good, they tended to drag in spots, but they both had interesting premises. The first is Chain of Chance which is a detective story of sorts. I can't really say more with out ruining the ending. The other is The Futurological Congress. The protagonist (I can't remember his name) attends the annual futurological congress, where the hotel is attacked by terrorists of one brand or another. Pharmaceutical warfare is used either by the terrorist, or to quell the terrorists. For the rest of the story, you try to figure out what is real, and what is a hallucination. Some interesting ideas are presented, including how to improve the quality of life in a deteriorating world. If you like multiple levels of reality, you'd probably get a kick out of this one. The Investigation, Memoirs Found in a Bathtub, and Tales of Pirx the Pilot, I found to be heavy-handed and slow moving. In The Investigation, corpses start moving around, and some official (I can't remember his name, I think he worked for Scotland Yard) is assigned to look into it. If I remember correctly, nothing is resolved in the end. Memoirs Found in a Bathtub has our protagonist wandering around what is left of the pentagon, or something equivalent. Everyone is a spy, even though no one has been outside the building for x years. He is charged with a secret mission, but he doesn't know what it is, and can't find his contact. This book is not worth reading. It is incredibly slow moving, and is reminiscent of Waiting for Godot. Tales of Pirx the pilot is a collection of four stories whose only connection with one another is the protagonist's name. If you liked the Chain of Chance, you might enjoy the last three stories, they all have the same sense of random events leading up to a seemingly sinister result. His latest book, Return from the Stars is all right, but not great. The hero arrives on earth ~150 years after going out a an trans-stellar expedition, to find every "beatrized" (sp?). The result is that everyone gets ill when they even think of a violence. Dangerous things like space exploration is out of the question needless to say. The novel tells the story of his adjustment. In summary, I liked the Cyberaid, and Star Diaries alot, Chain of Chance, The Futurological Congress, and Return from the Stars a little, and The Investigation, Tales of Pirx the Pilot, and Memoirs Found in a Bathtub. At his worst, Lem's books are deadly dull, and heavy-handed, at his best, they witty, satiric, and immensely entertaining. Happy reading, Joe ------------------------------ Date: 12 August 1982 20:36-EDT From: Charles F. Von Rospach Subject: SF TV: Starlost If you haven't read it by now, the book 'Starcrossed' by Ben Bova is about as close as Ben could come to writing his experiences as 'Science' advisor without being sued by various parties (there is a LOT of truth in the book, however, the truth is funny enough you won't believe that). The original Science Advisor and the person who developed the concept originally was Harlan Ellison (who is in Bova's book, BTW). He wrote an article on the whole Starlost Fiasco for Amazing stories magazine called 'Somehow, Toto, I Don't Think We are in Kansas anymore' which I can probably get you a date on if you need it. Starlost was a real great idea that was nicely butchered by a bunch of non-SF BEM men. It ranks with me about the same level as 'Plan Nine From Outer Space', that is, so terrible that it was funny, and funny because they were trying to be serious. chuck ------------------------------ Date: 12-Aug-82 11:10:24 PDT (Thursday) From: Mackey at PARC-MAXC Subject: SF TV: Starlost and Space Ark (?) and... I think I remember that show. It was about a family (father, son, and daughter) who are out camping and fall through a time-warp onto a planet with futuristic technology, and dinosaurs, but no civilization. There were some neat ideas in the story, like the Pylons that were communication/memory devices, and there were some interesting story ideas. But I gave up on it after awhile since I missed some episodes where important things happened, and it seemed to repeat itself after awhile (alot of saturday-morning kiddie stuff like people always yelling and running away from something). Does anyone remember Space Ark? I think that was the name of it. It was about a large spaceship with millions of people scattered through it like nations. The story centers on a group of people who are trying to find the damaged control center so the ship can go back on course and order will be restored. In the process, they meet all kinds of strange societies that have formed on the ship as the result of the disaster which also wrecked the control center. I recall reading that Harlan Ellison wrote several of the episodes (under the name Penguin?). It was done in video, and had several video effects. [ I am not sure what TV series you are referring to in the first paragraph, but the one referred to in the second is definitely the Starlost. -- Jim ] Going way back (over 10 years)...does anyone remember Fireball XL-5, Super Car, Stingray, or Thunderbirds? These were all British SF shows, with the characters being played by marionettes! They had action-packed stories, and good effects (though my memory may be a bit warped since I was much younger at the time). I even had a Fireball XL-5 lunchbox, and a toy Fireball XL-5. If only parents knew how much these would be worth today. These shows played in the S.F. Bay Area, and I'd be interested in hearing if they are still alive somewhere...and are as good as I remember. Too bad we didn't have VCRs back then. Kevin [ We have already had an EXTENSIVE discussion of these TV shows (and many others) in SF-LOVERS. These discussions appear in the following: volume 3, issues 117-120, 125-132, 134-136 USC-ECLB::BUG:SFLVRS.105 volume 3, issues 137-148, 150-155 USC-ECLB::BUG:SFLVRS.106 volume 4, issue 92 USC-ECLB::BUG:SFLVRS.110 volume 5, issue 1 USC-ECLB::BUG:SFLVRS.201 -- Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 15 Aug 1982 0:12:37 EDT (Sunday) From: Winston Edmond Subject: Movie items The sequel to Ralph Bakshi's movie of Tolkien's Lord of the Rings is scheduled for release around Christmas this year. "In nearly all the scenes in which he appears, Steven Spielberg's little extraterrestrial is portrayed by a $1.5-million automaton. However, in certain difficult sequences, such as the trick-or-treat expedition, E.T. was played by a 3-foot-7-inch actress inside a latex costume." -from Robert Massimilian, CineMedia Publications In London, the original six members of Monty Python (Eric Idle, Graham Chapman, John Cleese, Terry Gilliam, Terry Jones, Michael Palin) have begun shooting "The Meaning of Life", their first film in four years. -WBE ------------------------------ Date: 13 Aug 1982 1852-PDT From: William "Chops" Westfield Subject: Violence. A while ago, someone defended violence in movies by stating that violence is part of the real world, after all, and people should be exposed to it to make them ready for reality, or some such. No one has argued with this. I am about to. Most people will never be exposed to the type of violence that modern movies use so lavishly. Pain is real, death is real, but in general, most people will never see much in the way of "violence". You disagree ? Consider: in Blade Runner, the reviews object to things like the heros fingers being broken, and someones head being crushed. In Wolfen, which I watched on HBO, there is this great scene where you get to watch some persons head falling to the ground after it has been decapitated by one of the wolfish creatures. I won't even go into the type of violence depicted in "maniac" type horror movies like like Friday The 13th (today!). Is this type of violence really present in the lives of most people ? I think not. I was a gymnast and have seen people break arms, ankles, dislocated elbows, and such things. I've had a fair share of injuries myself. None of this is violence. Maybe someday there will be a war that I might have to fight in, and I will be unlucky enough to watch some of my friends being blown to little bits. This is violence, but it is obscured by a general atmosphere of pain. I am not likely to be treated to close up views of the various pieces as they leave the center of the explosion and live to remember it in horror myself, anyway. No one has objected much to this type of violence in old John Wayne movies or mash, and such. More likely I will be witness to a particularly gory car accident. This is unpleasant, but not really violence. Or maybe ill be mugged, beaten, robbed... This is still a far cry from having my brains slowly mashed by a robot type creature. The type of violence depicted in movies DOES NOT, in general happen in the real world. More people see it in the movies than will ever see it in reality. Maybe it is harmful, maybe not, but I find it objectionable, and "violence is real" is no excuse ! Bill Westfield ------------------------------ Date: 13 Aug 1982 at 0934-PDT From: chesley.tsca at SRI-Unix Subject: PACing it up Q: What do you call a pacman game given as a get well present? A: A sick's pac. ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 13 August 1982 12:22-PDT From: Jonathan Alan Solomon Subject: PacMan jokes What do MR. and MS. PAC use when they want to call someone? A PAC-TELefone --JSol p.s. some of you may not get this one. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Aug 1982 1729-PDT From: Henry W. Miller Subject: PACPuns Forgive me Fadder, for I have punned... -HWM ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 1982 1739-PDT From: Paul Asente Subject: Yet another video game joke What is the best remedy for headaches caused by reading too many silly Pac-man jokes??? An ice-PAC... (Enough, already!!!) [ Agreed. -- Jim ] ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 19-Aug Grath #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #43 *** EOOH *** Date: Thursday, August 19, 1982 4:36AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #43 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 15 Aug 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 43 Today's Topics: Administrivia - Opinions from SU-LOTS, SF Topics - Opinions from SU-LOTS ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thursday, August 19, 1982 4:36AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS-REQUEST at SRI-CSL Subject: Opinions from SU-LOTS Some of the following material is from the BBoard at SU-LOTS, and was submitted by Stuart M. Cracraft (mclure at SRI-UNIX). It was thought to be of interest to the readership. Since LOTS is not on the net, responses cannot be made to the original submitters - however, people should feel free to discuss the topics and issues raised. Jim ------------------------------ Date: 11 Aug 1982 15:47:41-EDT From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX Subject: opinion from su-lots There are a lot of highly debatable opinions in this, in particular Avery's attempts to judge SF on [literary] quality (I particularly question the high value he gives to "style" (whatever that is).) I'll address just two items of factual error in the compiled msgs: 1. "Campbell's pulps" is an oxymoron. The first all-sf pulp was AMAZING, established by Hugo Gernsbach in 1926 (although SF had been a pulp genre for some years already---THE SKYLARK OF SPACE, commonly considered a classic, dates from some time before this). Campbell was first published in the mid-30's and became editor of ASTOUNDING in 1938 ('39?); he established only one other magazine, the short-lived UNKNOWN. 2. DUNE does not pander to any mystic cult; it came out before almost all of the popular expressions of drugs (e.g. songs ranging from "Mr. Tambourine Man" to "Puff, the Magic Dragon", the "psychedelic" Beatles posters) and mysticism (again, the Beatles' leanings (beginning with the strictly musical introduction of Ravi Shankar), Guru Ji, etc.), appearing in two chunks in ASTOUNDING/ANALOG (3 parts covering through Paul and Jessica's escape to the desert, another 5 parts for the rest of the book). Herbert in fact shows many signs of the doctrinaire conservative, and probably would be very annoyed if you suggested that he was bending to grubby popular taste, but he has always been interested in the complex interlinkages of ecology (witness a very early work, THE GREEN BRAIN) and in the potential for making major steps in mental [evolution] (cf. especially THE SANTAROGA BARRIER, which hasn't been picked up by cultists and which deals primarily with a mind-expanding drug). DUNE took off several years after serialization because of the rising interest in drugs and mysticism but more because of the growing awareness of ecology; a lot of what he says devolves into meaningless generalities but it sounds complicated and aware, thus attracting an audience. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Aug 1982 1336-PDT From: Zellich at OFFICE-3 (Rich Zellich) Subject: Rating SF stories/authors I've noticed, in the current discussion on what are "good" stories and who the "good" authors are, a definite tendency toward "serious literature" snobbery. If a book is written in a lighter vein, and isn't heavily into philosophy or science, it is downgraded. Some of my favorite works are the lighter ones, frequently because of the \idea/, whether it's "quality" literature or not. This is one of the reasons the Foundation trilogy is so well thought of - the \idea/ behind the story is so intriguing in and of itself that you can overlook the somewhat shallow characterization. Phil Farmer, I will agree, isn't one of the greatest prose-slingers in the world, but some of his books are among my favorites. Just the \idea/ behind "Lord of the Trees" was enough to make me say "alll riight!" when I first saw it and buy it immediately. After reading it, I'll agree it's not among the top 10 pieces of literature ever written, but I still have a strong fondness for it because of what it is: a send-up of the Tarzan saga. Other favorites/nonfavorites just plain seem to be a matter of taste. I've noticed that you can get a lot of violent arguments started by bringing up "Dune". It happens to be one of my 3 or 4 all-time favorites in any branch of literature, and other people seem to feel just as negatively about it. Another thing that seems to be generally downgraded, or more often just plain ignored, when discussing "good" SF, is humor. R.A. Lafferty is one of my all-time favorite SF authors, yet I hardly ever hear his stuff mentioned in these discussions. Likewise Ron Goulart, whose stuff is \definitely/ "light weight", but generally good for a good read. I don't so much like any specific one of his stories, as I do all of them taken as a whole (some of it, admittedly, is pretty poor when taken by itself; I just don't reread those particular books, although I'll \always/ at least try them no matter what they look like in the store). Enjoy, Rich ------------------------------ Date: 11 Aug 1982 at 1436-PDT From: chesley.tsca at SRI-Unix Subject: Re: Book ratings Maybe we should devise a scheme for rating people who rate books: HS - likes hardcore science only. HF - likes hardcore fantasy only. SV - likes sex and violence. LE - likes everything. HE - hates everything. MI - mentally incompetent. PI - physically incompetent. MPI - metaphysically incompetent. OP - only looks at the pictures. NR - never reads the books, just rates them. UC - unclassifiable. --Harry... P.S. Just in case: this was just a joke; i.e., not serious; i.e., I don't want to start a meta-book-review discussion. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jul 1982 1028-PDT From: M.MELKAR at SU-LOTS Subject: SCIENCE FICTION RATING / Response & Remarks I'm quite pleased with the response that I've gotten on my science fiction ratings, but what I would like to see most of all is other rating lists so I can know who else to read. Some remarks were made on the rating scheme used. Obviously with over 130 titles listed I'm not going to write a paragraph on each. The grading scheme is the best for stating whether a book is good or bad, which is the bottom line anyhow. You will have probably noticed that there are no D or F ratings and few C ratings. This is mainly an unintended side effect. Usually I can tell if the book is D or F quality at the bookstore, so it's never purchased. The C books are mainly accidents were I bought a book that initially looked good but latter proved to be a turkey. An example of a D grade book is: Cornelius Chronicles by Michael Moorcook. An F grade author is: R. A. Lafferty. If you're into literary masochism, anything by lafferty will satisfy your needs. A big problem with sci-fi is quality. For example, if you go to a used book store and pick out 20 SF novels at random you'll probably find only one or two books that are B quality or better. Even if you use the standard of the Hugo / Nebula award as a basis for book selection your chances of finding B quality or better are about 50%. This is part of the reason why many people do not like Sci-Fi and why there is a need for quality rating lists. U.USED2 made some remarks about Frank Herbert that I basicly agree with. Frank Herbert is unusual in that his work "Dune" is a towering masterpiece worthy of the highest praise but his other works including his Dune sequels are second and third rate. How a generally third rate author can write such a fabulous work as "Dune" is one of the great mysteries of Science Fiction. M.MCLURE had some verbal abuse directed towards Philip Jose Farmer. I suspect our tastes on SF are largely orthogonal, however M.MCLURE is quite incorrect in down playing P.J. Farmer as an author. Farmer's works "Too Your Scattered Bodies Go" and "The Makers of Universes" are both excellent and highly recommended. Farmer's best work is "Night of Light" which is A+. Also "Inside Outside" which was a Riverworld prototype novel should receive an A rating. A word of warning about Farmer is that he likes to write long series of novels where the opening novel is top notch and the concluding novel significantly degraded in quality. The "Magic Labyrinth" is a case in point, though I did give it a B rating. Also Farmer has a very masculine style of writing with plot and characters keyed towards a male audience. I should also point out that M.MCLURE is right about "Citizen of the Galaxy" by Robert A. Heinlein being an excellent book. I gave it an A- rating. I find all the feed back I'm getting on Ursula LeGuin interesting but somewhat baffling. Granted she's good but a Silverberg or Niven she is not. S.SAPHO raised a very interesting point about the female perspective. In reading the "Dispossessed" I found the male characters always seemed to have a female undertone to them and the plot had a define female aura to it, (I wish I could be more specific). Varley's "Titan" had the opposite effect, were all the major characters and action involved are female but the fact that the book was written by a man was always apparent. Andre Norton is the only woman author I've read whose femininity doesn't permeate throughout the story. Whether this is good or bad is debatable. Generally I don't care for Norton's novels. S.SAPHO felt that LeGuin's works won't suffer from stylistic obsolescence, as is the case with Vern, Wells and Asmiov. I suspect she is wrong but only the future will show that. One author that is timeless is David Lindsay. His two best works are: A Voyage to Arcturus A+ Haunted Woman A+ A "Voyage to Arcturus" was written in 1920 and is a fabulous novel and will still be fabulous in the year 2120. However I should warn you that like French wine, David Lindsay is an acquired taste and he is certainly not for everyone. If there is sufficient interest I will write an in depth review about this author and on Alexi Panshin's "Anthony Villiers Series" as well. I will produce a third and final rating list when someone else has provided a list that I can contrast against. If someone would like to create a rational rating system and set of standards superior to my own, I would be willing to use that system in future ratings. G. Allen ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jul 1982 0933-PDT From: Abe Fisher Subject: SF It just occurred to me--a book which I read once, loved, and haven't seen since: "Operation Chaos" by (I think) Poul Anderson. It is at least possible that this is a lousy book in reality, as I read it quite a long time ago, but I have wonderful memories of it. It has a sense of humor, which helps a book rather a lot. abe ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jul 1982 1020-PDT From: L.LOLLIE at SU-LOTS Subject: S.F writer of interest Having read a large amount of sf junk of late , I am pleased to have run across a "new" (for me) author with a different approach (flavor?) ; Gene Wolfe. Some recent work I have enjoyed is his New Sun books ; in particular The Shadow of the Torturer. The title originally turned me off and so it took a while before I got desperate enough to try it. I am interested in hearing what anyone else knows of this author (didn't notice him in any of the lists). lollie ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jul 1982 1200-PDT From: M.McLure at SU-LOTS (Stuart M. Cracraft) Subject: Re: S.F writer of interest Gene Wolfe is, perhaps, SF's premier stylist. I don't particularly care for his work, but that's just a matter of taste. Some of his books: Peace (a mainstream novel) lots of poetry The Shadow of the Torturer (mentioned by lollie) The Claw of the Concilliator (book 2 of the New Sun) The Sword of the Lictor (book 3) some short story collections ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jul 1982 0130-PDT From: K.KARL at SU-LOTS Subject: SciFi: Murray Leinster, et al I'm overwhelmed by the response to my simple inquiry several weeks ago for a Summer SciFi reading list. Many thanks to all! My first exposure to SF was a paperback THE WAILING ASTEROID by M.Leinster which made a lasting impression; the movie was faithful to the book but had a different title and starred John Saxon. I believe I've read more by Leinster but I cannot recall the titles. I liked his style. The second SF book I read, ten or so years ago, was FOUR FROM PLANET FIVE which also made an impression: four refugees from Planet 5 (presently our asteroid belt) were found entombed in ice, etc etc. What impressed me was the room-temperature superconducting "wire" they possessed. This material has since become reality: last year in ELECTRONICS magazine a researcher at Wright-Patterson AFB announced that an experiment to produce ductile crystals resulted in a material exhibiting ALL properties expected of a superconductor AT ROOM TEMPERATURE: no resistance and the property of magnetic and electrostatic shielding. The ramifications of that discovery are stupendous. A follow-up blurb six months later confirmed that testing of the material was continuing and that the material is reproducible and still exhibits superconducting properties. I do not subscribe to ELECTRONICS and cannot find the articles. I recall that the material comprised boron and/or bromide and/or flourine. Can anybody provide more information on this subject? (P.S. I do not remember who the author of FOUR FROM PLANET FIVE was, can anyone provide this information also?) Finally, my reason for soliciting a reading list is due to my impression that the only good SF is old SF by the masters from the 30s, 40s and 50s. The few works I've encountered by modern authors have been depressing and lack the "aliveness" of the masters' works. Again I thank you for the lists and I will select random samples for my Summer reading and hopefully I will be pleasantly surprised and entertained. My favorite SF book was LEST DARKNESS FALL. No other book of any genre has "stuck in my mind" and had as emotional an impact, especially considering the altruism: to prevent the Dark Ages and the stifling of Humanity's Progress and Development. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Summary-line: 19-Aug Grath #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #44 Date: Thursday, August 19, 1982 1:54AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #44 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL *** EOOH *** Date: Thursday, August 19, 1982 1:54AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #44 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 19 Aug 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 44 Today's Topics: SF Books - Query Answered & The Mathenauts & Ossian's Ride & Little,Big & The Elfin Ship, SF Movies - Destination Moon & ET: The Extra-Terrestrial, SF Music - Twilight Zone, SF TV - Night Gallery & HHGttG & Dr Who, Spoiler - ET: The Extra-Terrestrial ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 Aug 82 16:14:58-EDT (Mon) From: Webber.umcp-cs at UDel-Relay Subject: The Mathenauts The story being sought is The Mathenauts by Norman Kagan it appeared in IF:Worlds of SF July 1964 (and also in one of J. Merrill's anthologies) Certainly to be recommended for anyone who thinks that reality is for people who can't handle pure mathematics. ----------------------- BOB ------------------------------ Date: 18 Aug 1982 1725-EDT From: DAVID I. LEWIN Subject: here's the plot... The Fred Hoyle story in which information sent from another star is used by earth humans to build a device is "Ossians's Ride". In this Eire becomes the leading technological country through this knowledge. Also, a character is threatened as follows: he will be fed boron and exposed to a fast neutron beam. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Aug 1982 at 1638-CDT From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 Subject: Hoyle, ANDROMEDA, OSSIAN'S RIDE, scientific elites ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ANDROMEDA, etc. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Yes, A FOR ANDROMEDA and its sequel ANDROMEDA BREAKTHROUGH were by Sir Fred Hoyle with a collaborator, but it was John Elliot, not his son Geoffrey Hoyle. Tho many people know Hoyle wrote these, surprisingly few realize that they are not truly original but are novelizations of a British TV series. These books also seem to have started Hoyle off on a spate of plots involving a hero enamored of alien personae in beautiful female human bodies. One of those, Hoyle's OSSIAN'S RIDE, is one of my favorite "chase"- type sf novels. Nicholls' ENC. OF S/F says that it is "interesting for the aggressively political stance taken by FH, who believes that science-educated people are more fit to govern than arts-educated people -- not just that numeracy is as important as literacy, but that, because a numerate training is less tied up with emotional questions than a literate training, it would give a necessary coolness of judgment to the ruling classes". Hmmmmmmm... I suspect Hoyle's stance is culturally conditioned. From what I have seen of British-type educational systems, even persons who have been channeled into "numerate training" have already had "literate training" comparable (or superior) to the bulk of persons with American B.A.'s in the arts/humanities. (If nothing else, they have been forced through the early years in their system to write English clearly-- or fail their exams, regardless of the subject!) So Hoyle's science-educated people are both "numerate" AND literate. In a way, in his British science-educated-people he has something approaching the best of "the two cultures". The proportion of recipients of American B.S.'s who would be comparable is small. I wouldn't consider the bulk of the people with American B.S degrees any different in capability to govern than those with the B.A.. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jul 1982 16:19:18-EDT From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX Subject: LITTLE, BIG Some of you will doubtless call me a lowbrow for this, but I was not particularly enchanted by LITTLE, BIG; I found parts intriguing and much of it irretrievably precious. There really isn't a plot; it's chunks of the lives of several people, most of them related, with occasional happenings that require supernatural explanations. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Aug 1982 1437-EDT From: STILLMAN.SHERMAN at RUTGERS Subject: Lousy new releases - is there an end in sight?? Has anyone else noticed that the latest releases in SF and F books are really lousy??! And I think I'm being kind... Whatever you do, stay away from "The Elfin Ship", a real boring novel by James P. Babbylock (spelling approx.). Its long, tedious, and goes nowhere. Apparently James thinks that you can hook a reader simply by introducing cute characters and villains. WRONG! This is basically a 15 page short story which has been fed so much extraneous garbage that it has expanded into something obscene. The basic story is that a 'cheeser' has to bring some of his goods over to the dwarves so they can trade for honeycakes and elfin toys. Of course no book would be complete w/out an almost deadly menace, and this element is certainly used (poorly, mind you). So the big cheese takes off down the river, and nothing exciting happens for the next 300 odd pages. If you have to read something stay away from this and look for new traffic signs. *Steve Sherman* ------------------------------ Date: 18 Aug 1982 0849-PDT From: Griffin at SUMEX-AIM Subject: Technical advisor "Destination Moon" A friend of mine was looking over an old issue which stated that Heinlein was the technical advisor for the movie "Destination Moon". He's almost positive that it was not Heinlein, but WILLY LEY, the world-famous aviator and rocket pioneer who died in a plane crash. KG ------------------------------ Date: 18 Aug 1982 0810-EDT From: DEVON at MIT-DMS (Devon S. McCullough) Subject: Twilight Zone Where [in Cambridge/Boston area preferably] should I look to find the score for the TZ theme, and the letters "Twilight Zone" in the exact visual font used for the show? The purpose is to digitize both, and have a pop-up window appear shortly before 11pm on my screen, as a reminder. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Aug 1982 0229-PDT From: Dolata at SUMEX-AIM Subject: Night Gallery I recently saw an old favorite Night Gallery epsiode, and noticed who directed it. The episode is the one where a tyranical rich blind woman blackmails a doctor into grafting the optic nerves from a desparate man onto her eyes, even though she knows that she will only gain 12 hours of sight. She feels that 12 hours is too precious to pass up. The night of the operation, she peals off the bandages and sees for the first time. But then the light goes away. She seems to be blind again.... I won't spoil the ending in case anyone hasn't seen it. The director was Steven Spielberg, which didn't suprise me at all once I looked at the interplay of light and darkness, the fuzzy soft lighting at points, and the good buildup of suspense. Two questions; What other semi-obscure things has he directed, and where did he get his mania about soft fuzzy lighting? Dan (dolata@sumex-aim) ------------------------------ Date: 18 Aug 1982 1049-EDT From: Larry Seiler Subject: WGBH Programming The Boston public TV station has been announcing on-air that they will be showing BOTH Hitch-Hiker's Guide and a new season of Dr. Who this fall. (These announcements are made during the evening pledge period, right after Dr. Who gets over). They suggest that if you are happy about this, you might send them a check... Larry ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, August 19, 1982 1:54AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Subject: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The last three messages in this digest discuss some plot details in the movie ET: The Extra-Terrestrial. Some readers may not wish to read on. ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 10 August 1982 13:06-PDT From: Jonathan Alan Solomon Subject: E. T.!! Um, I finally saw it (lines got so bad in Hollywood that you had to stand in line 3 hours to buy a ticket 7 days in advance and stand in another 3 hour line to see the show a week later) when it opened in WestWood; and was amazed at how easily I got emotionally involved in the story. Spielberg (did I spell it right?) sure knows how to captivate his audience. I did see a flaw; in the bicycle chase scene, two police cars were chasing the kids into a construction site, the kids turned a corner around a building and Eliot must have taken it too steep, and fell over, causing E. T. to tumble out of the basket and almost collide with one of the other bikes (not to mention the cop cars which slowed down so as to avoid hitting them, nice guys). Then a split second later they were on their way, it just didn't look like it was *supposed* to be that way. Oh well, what a nit. It was truly a great movie. I hope we get a sequel out of it. "I will be right here". --JSol ------------------------------ Date: 6 Aug 1982 0311-PDT From: Dolata at SUMEX-AIM Subject: Medics 'last gasp' efforts If I came upon an alien who was GOING TO DIE without assistance, and I was the only help available, I would apply whatever techniques I could to try to save it. Sure, there is a 99%+ chance that adrenalin will not help it, and a good chance that it will harm it, but it is the only thing that they had (other than lots of ignorance). Better to use something that has a slim slim slim chance of helping, than to use nothing. It is possible that Botulinus Toxin would do better, but given that these men didn't have information, they did the best they could. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Aug 1982 13:57:46-PDT From: rabbit!xchar at Berkeley Subject: E.T. phone home WARNING: SPOILER! : The following article discusses details of the construction and operation of the long distance communication device in the movie *E.T., the Extra-Terrestrial*. Those readers who prefer to consider the communicator as just a hokey fake may not wish to read on. Reprinted, with permission, from *Bell Labs News*, August 2, 1982, Vol. 22, No. 33, p. 1-2. Bell Labs Henry Feinberg Meet the man who helped E.T. 'phone home' Millions of movie-goers this summer are seeing an ingenious device used to make a long, *long* distance call. The movie is *E.T., the Extra-Terrestrial*. The device is a whimsically Rube Goldbergesque microwave system. And if you're willing to wait out the rather lengthy credits at the end of the picture, you'll see the name of the communicator's designer, Henry Feinberg. Feinberg was working in the corporate exhibits group at Short Hills last spring when director Steven Spielberg asked Bell Labs for help in finding someone to create the "communicator." "I was delighted, just delighted," Feinberg said. "It was right up my alley." The communicator is critical to the movie's plot. A homesick extraterrestrial, or E.T., is stranded on Earth. While watching TV in the suburbs, a "Reach Out and Touch Someone" commercial inspires him to try to "phone home." With the help of a 10-year-old Earthling, E.T. builds a communicator from found objects: a golf umbrella, a coat hanger, a coffee can and some electronic toys. Then he beams his signal into space, hoping his friends will pick it up and come back for him. "I had three criteria for the communicator," Feinberg said. "It had to be plausible; it had to be made of everyday materials; and as many of those materials as possible had to be within a 10-year-old's frame of reference." Feinberg built the device in his spare time, amid the clutter of other hobbies in his Manhattan apartment. He started by rewiring a Texas Instruments "Speak and Spell" calculator, to disply a "new alphabet" for E.T. He then ran wires from each button on the keyboard to a row of bobby pins fastened to the dowel of a wooden coat hanger. The hanger was suspended over the turntable of a children's phonograph. Feinberg painted a 10" circular sawblade ("the paint acts as an insulator," he explained) and put it on the turntable. Then he carefully scraped the paint from some areas of the disk so that when it revolves, selected bobby pins make electrical contact with the exposed metal, thus activating the appropriate buttons on the "Speak and Spell." In the movie, the communicator is powered by the wind. A string is tied between a tree branch and a ratchet made from a knife and fork. As the wind moves the branch, the string pulls the ratchet and the fork moves the sawblade, tooth by tooth. Feinberg acoustically coupled a toy CB walkie-talkie to the speaker in the "Speak and Spell" to bring the signal to the transmitter. The transmitter uses the UHF tuner from a television set as a frequency multiplier, a coffee can as a microwave resonator, a funnel as waveguide, and a golf umbrella lined with aluminum foil as a parabolic antenna to beam E.T.'s call home. Feinberg hand-carried the device to the film studio in California. "I took a few days of vacation to help out on the set," he said. "It was hard, intense work--12 hours a day--but a whole lot of fun." Did the device work for E.T. and bring his friends back to rescue him? Ask any kid. It worked for Feinberg, right up to the point of transmission. And even that, he notes, looks plausible. "Cartoons use the concept of the *plausible impossible*," he said. "A character gets chased off a cliff and stays in mid-air for a few seconds. It's only when he looks down that he starts to fall. E.T.'s communicator represents what I call the *plausible possible*. I wanted some of my Bell Labs friends to look at it and say, 'Darned if it couldn't work!'" As Feinberg said, the communicator project was right up his alley. For over twenty years, he has made a career of doing what he likes best, "interpreting science for the public." He started out in the late 1950s as a production assistant on the *Mr. Wizard* TV series, devising ways to demonstrate scientific principles with common, household objects. Then he joined Bell Labs, working on films, displays, exhibits and science demonstrations. Currently he is on assignment at AT&T in New York, working on the Bell System exhibits for Walt Disney's new theme park, EPCOT (Experimental Prototype Community of Tomorrow). And he's having a ball. "I'm a kid at heart," he admits. "Absolutely!" ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Summary-line: 22-Aug Grath #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #45 Date: Sunday, August 22, 1982 8:02AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #45 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL *** EOOH *** Date: Sunday, August 22, 1982 8:02AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #45 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 22 Aug 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 45 Today's Topics: SF Books - Stanislaw Lem & Carlos Castenada, Humor - Puns, SF Topics - Violence in SF, Random Topics - Violence in Movies, SF Movies - Blade Runner, Spoiler - Violence in Movies & Blade Runner ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 August 1982 1042-EDT From: Don Provan at CMU-10A Subject: Lem i've always been a big fan of Lem, even his bad stuff. i think it's a real mistake to underrate Memoirs Found in a Bathtub. comparing it to Waiting for Godot is exactly correct, although "reminiscent" is much too weak a word. the mood and underlying philosophy are exactly the same as Waiting. the only real difference is that in the Memoirs the main character is not passive, although his existence is just as pointless. if this is damning evidence, so be it. to me, Waiting for Godot is a great play. if all you see in it is tedium, then you probably should avoid the Memoirs Found in a Bathtub. another excellent novel by Lem that i haven't heard mentioned is Solaris. of all the Lem, this one to me should be required reading. it's a high powered and thought provoking book about one man trying to relate to a planet which is an intelligent life form. someone who has only read his humorous work may be surprised at the seriousness of this one. it was made into a four hour movie by some russian film maker many years ago. the only version i've ever heard of showing in the u.s. was one cut down to normal 2 hour movie size. one can't stress the translator's role in Lem's work enough. in Cyberaid, one begins to wonder in Lem wrote some of the passages in english versions. it's hard to believe a translator could come up with translations that work so well. there's some word work of such high quality that i can't remember ever seeing an english book which abused the language so eloquently. perhaps some one with a copy of Cyberaid at hand could copy in a passage to let everyone else in on what we're talking about. my favorite story in Cyberaid is a story about someone telling a story about three robots telling stories, one of which is about a machine that a king can plug into to have dreams, and in one of the dreams there's a story....etc. and at the end of each story, you're pulled back into context without losing a step. a real masterpiece. don ------------------------------ Date: Sat Aug 14 23:13:35 1982 From: decvax!utzoo!watmath!watarts!geo Subject: Carlos Castenada's Books of Yaqui Knowledge as Fantasy? One of the articles McLure copied over from LOTS accused Dune and Stranger in a Strange Land of being intellectually dishonest books that pandered to shallow mystics. Well, have any of you read any of Carlos Castenada's books? I read them as a teen-ager,when they came out. A lot of my friends were very influenced by his accounts of his lessons from "Don Juan", a "Yaqui Indian " sorcerer. His earliest two books were written when a considerable number of people were involved with so-called "consciousness-expanding" drugs. In these two books Castenada is taught through naturally- occurring consciousness-expanding drugs. By the time he wrote his third and fourth books, drugs had lost their charm for most people. Strangely enough, they had lost their charm for Don Juan too! Mystic auras, mind power, and personal growth were the order of the day with Don Juan. I understand that in his latest two books Carlos learns about feminine power. I accuse Castenada of being an out and out fraud, who has calculatingly concocted stories which have seduced his readers with untruths that may have caused them to base their parts of their lives, and/or their personal philosophies upon his lies. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Aug 82 9:59:19-EDT (Tue) From: Andrew Scott Beals Subject: startrek limerick Not bad, but I really do prefer good 'ol puns. But be careful never to point a pun at someone, because it might be loaded. ... And you might kill your pun-pal. ... And end up in the punitentary. ... That would be to much punishment to bear. ... etc. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Aug 82 23:13:56-EDT (Mon) From: Gene Spafford Subject: Why is the future so violent? Science fiction deals with our futures and directions. The ex- istence of our future is not an article of fiction, however. We can speculate and fantasize about our futures. We can influence our futures, too. I'd like to throw out a few thoughts here and see what kind of discussion they provoke. How much of yourself will you see in some of this? How are you influencing our collective future? Think for a moment or two about some of the stories that have had some effect on your thoughts. What was the last book you read where the hero was a person who regularly tried to negotiate and counsel peace? I'm not talking about books where the hero/heroine was in the right place at the right time and was able to stop some disaster in the making. I'm talking about stories about people whose philosophy was really based on peace instead of violence. How about speculative fiction? It is easy to conjure up memories of interstellar warfare...the Dorsai, Pournelle's mercenaries, Ensign Flandry, Joe Haldeman's stories.... The list goes on and on. The only memorable character who regularly attempts negotiation is Retief (Keith Laumer). Why do the people who envision our future see it to be so violent? Perhaps the roots lie deeper. Who are our heroes right now? The pro football player whose talent is running over the other players? The heavyweight boxer? The TV cops? Why don't we idolize people who save thousands of lives, or at least try? Who in America will remember Phillip Habib 5 years from now? We have issue after issue of major magazines talking about Colonel Beckworth who led the commandos in the abortive raid to free the hostages in Iran, but who remembers the name of the Algerian Prime Minister who negotiated their eventual release (and was later killed in an airplane crash while trying to negotiate a ceasefire in another conflict)? How many Jonas Salk dolls were ever made, as compared to GI Joe and Megaforce toys? Name 5 recipients of the NFL player of the year award. Now name 5 recipients of the Nobel Peace Prize. Who are *your* heroes? Who do you respect? How do we encourage our children to live in a more peaceful world? We have the Saturday morning cartoons where the roadrunner has become more sadistic (as noted in a previous submission). Their comic books and movies feature whole planets being destroyed by supposedly intelligent beings. And how about the video games? You can go out and destroy aliens and enemy planes, but just try to negotiate. It is simply kill or be killed. I hope that aliens from another planet have the good sense (or good luck) to land in a country that has never had any video games. to belabor a point, next time you go into a video arcade, or a game store (like D&D, Traveller, War in Europe, etc.), or look at a home video game system, see if you can find any peaceful games. Think about it the next time you read about the President appointing an actor or businessman as an ambassador to another country. Think about it the next time Congress budgets more money for military bands than they do for the entire National Endowment for the Arts. Think about it when we're about to spend $30 billion on MX missiles. I just wish that what I see around me was the fiction. Can someone direct me to some science fiction which presents a gentler view of ourselves and our futures? Better yet, can someone direct us all towards a more peaceful future? Gene Spafford School of Information and Computer Sciences Georgia Institute of Technology ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, August 22, 1982 8:02AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Subject: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The last two messages in this digest discuss some plot details in the movie Blade Runner. Some readers may not wish to read on. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Aug 1982 12:40 PDT From: SJohnson.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Violence : Blade Runner vs Road Runner (Semi-Spoiler) While it may seem ridiculous to measure violence on an objective scale, please bear with me. I saw Blade Runner this weekend, and yes, I felt that it was very violent, from a "subjective" viewpoint. However, when I make an "objective" comparison between BR and RR, the latter comes out to be the more violent of the two. For example, it is subjectively more violent to see Roy Batty break 3 of Deckard's fingers than it is to see the Coyote run over by a train. But looking at it objectively, I would rather be Deckard than the Coyote. After all, I am a \real/ person, living in the \real/ world, and a \real/ train is going to \really/ kill me. Movies like Blade Runner show us the violence close-up, in a personal way, which is what a lot of people seem to be objecting to. These movies are alleged to have a negative effect on certain viewers, making them more likely to commit violent acts. I would like to think that the average viewer is not a latent psycho-path. "Road Runner" (substitute "Star Wars", "Hawaii Five-0", etc) shows me all the fun, but none of the gory, disgusting truth. Blade Runner (and films/books/tv shows like it) shows me why I want to avoid violence, and keep it from happenning to myself and others. - Swen ------------------------------ Date: 19 August 1982 0939-EDT From: [10,104] at Avsail Sender: ROUHIER at WPAFB-AFWAL Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #40 The idea of smallpox vaccinations in Blade Runner is not without precedence. At the present time every member of the U.S.'s armed forces, active duty and reserves, is required to have smallpox vaccinations (along with a host of others). I've had two within the last twelve years. Since he works for a government police force I wouldn't be surprised if he gets inoculated for everything under the sun. Bye, Chuck ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Summary-line: 25-Aug Grath #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #46 Date: Wednesday, August 25, 1982 6:02PM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #46 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL *** EOOH *** Date: Wednesday, August 25, 1982 6:02PM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #46 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 26 Aug 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 46 Today's Topics: SF Fandom - CHICON IV, SF Books - Down to a Sunless Sea & Stanislaw Lem & VALIS, Humor - Genderless Video Games, SF Movies - TRON, Spoiler - TRON ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 Aug 1982 2104-PDT From: Zellich at OFFICE-3 (Rich Zellich) Subject: SFL Party at CHICON We have received little response to the SFL party query, and may have trouble making contact with all those who want to attend but haven't yet been in touch. Anyone who is interested, look on the Con's bulletin board for a notice with ZELLICH@OFFICE-3 and a room number. The party is currently planned for Friday night about an hour after the GoH speeches and attendant ceremonies. See y'all there, Rich ------------------------------ Date: 17 Aug 82 8:46:25-EDT (Tue) From: Earl Weaver (VLD/VMB) Subject: Down to a Sunless Sea DTASS has it's faults (some things a little "far fetched"), but in general it's worth reading. It should appeal to anyone with an interest in aviation; some of the action is the most realistic I have ever read. One nitpick: the author several times refers to a safety lever on a revolver; what kind of revolver has a safety like that?? (Does the old Webley have one?) ------------------------------ Date: 21-Aug-82 20:16:25-PDT (Sat) From: sdcsvax!sdchema!donn Subject: Lem Re: Lem again [V6 #41, from JAF at MIT-EECS] I beg to differ with some of JAF's judgments about (and titles of) Stanislaw Lem's books. I would rank Lem among my top five or so favorite authors of science fiction and I hope more Americans take the time to read the books of this remarkable Pole. I have a fairly extensive set of books by Lem in translation and I thoroughly enjoy all of them, not just the satirical books. I will profile them quickly and give my own recommendations. SOLARIS: This book of his seems to be most widely known in the West, partly because the Russians made a movie out of it and partly because it was translated a long time ago. The current paperback version (I think it's Berkley) has a translation that is just awful and spoils the book. I think the book might otherwise be quite compelling: it is a rather Dickian story of reality and surreality on board a research station on the sentient planet Solaris. THE INVINCIBLE: Also spoiled by a bad translation. This is a serious novel about the nature of intelligence in a similar vein to SOLARIS. The spaceship Invincible discovers a planet that once held a civilization yet now appears to be lifeless; but it is and it isn't. THE CHAIN OF CHANCE: Another bad translation. An ex-astronaut is called in to serve as a guinea pig in an experiment to find a reason for the deaths of several middle-aged men. As things turn out, this is the wrong way to go about it. This book is a statement of Lem's unique philosophy of nature. THE INVESTIGATION: A quite good translation. This is a very atmospheric science fiction detective novel, but the atmosphere is more that of Lovecraft than of Chandler. A number of cadavers have disappeared and some of them appear to have simply gotten up and walked away. The setting is England, and Scotland Yard is called in to investigate. The solution to the mystery will never satisfy Chandler fans but I found it extremely intriguing (unlike JAF, apparently). One of my favorites. TALES OF PIRX THE PILOT: A reasonable translation. These are (somewhat dated, and incomplete) stories of Pirx, a young man who progresses from space cadet to space pilot. The first stories are amusing, light pieces; these change to stories with an Asimovian concern with life amid technology and conclude with a darkly impressive science fiction ghost story. RETURN FROM THE STARS: Just finished reading this one. It was written nearly twenty years ago but only was translated recently (a good job, too). Hal Bregg has returned from an interstellar mission that lasted 10 years ship time and 127 years Earth time. Earth's culture has changed radically in this period of time and Bregg's (and the reader's) experience is very disorienting. A very good treatment of a classic theme. THE CYBERIAD: (Is Cyberaid a powdered soft drink for robots? ("Just add a few tablespoons of positrons and stir...") Sorry.) These are the crazy adventures of Trurl and Klapaucius, the great (and sometimes not-so-great) robot inventors. The exuberant style is amazingly well translated by Michael Kandel. A fave. Give this one to your most dedicated computer addict. MORTAL ENGINES: This book contains the Robot Fables, along with a new Ijon Tichy story, a new Pirx story and a strange and beautiful novellette called "The Mask". The Robot Fables are a kind of prequel to the Trurl and Klapaucius stories. Excellent translation by Michael Kandel, with a long and interesting foreword. THE STAR DIARIES (of Ijon Tichy): More wonderful silliness, with even sillier illustrations by the author. Ijon Tichy lives and travels in a universe that manages to contain parodies of almost every science fiction construct ever thought of, and a few that are yet to be. Another brilliant Kandel translation. Highly recommended. The preface gives a good etymology of Lem's name. THE FUTUROLOGICAL CONGRESS: An independent tale of Ijon Tichy, in novel form. This one travels through Philip Dick country when a congress Tichy is attending is attacked with pharmaceuticals. This is yet another comment on the nature of reality. MEMOIRS FOUND IN A BATHTUB: A harsh satire of military bureaucracy which takes place in the underground bastions of the Pentagon after the bomb. The depiction of police paranoia in this absurd novel makes me wonder if it is just the Americans whom this barb is meant to prick. A book which I haven't managed to read and which I would love to get my hands on is A PERFECT VACUUM, which is a series of prefaces to very profound (but alas, unwritten) books. I'm not sure if it exists in translation yet; I may have to learn Polish, sigh.... [A comment on the medium: I really like the book reviews in SF-L even when I disagree with them; I hope we see more. I'm afraid I've really gotten tired of reading movie reviews in SF-L, and there's so many good books out there I know I've read that other people ought to hear about, and even more I haven't read which I would like to hear about...] Donn Seeley UCSD Chemistry Dept. RRCF ucbvax!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn ------------------------------ Date: 20 Aug 1982 1810-PDT From: LEWIS at SRI-AI (Bil Lewis) Subject: VALIS -- a personal review What ever else one might wish to say about VALIS, it is most certainly autobiographical. Philip K Dick plays the major role, and Doris X, an old friend of mine, is the number two figure (Sherri) through out the first half of the book. I and various other friends appear as minor characters or just in passing. Several others I don't know at all. The only event that I know to be inaccurate is that Doris didn't die in her second bout with Cancer, which implies that most of the other weird things that occur are real. When I returned from the Peace Corps in 1974, I met "Phil" , a friend of Doris' who lived next door, and his cat. He struck me as a depressed, moribund character with little interest in people and none in living, exactly the last type of person Doris needed at that time. I didn't realize that this was Dick and that he and Doris were lovers until last week. VALIS is not so much science fiction as it is religious/mystic fiction (however much of it really is fiction!). Dick writes very well. He uses a huge vocabulary makes innumerable literary references, and a fair number of personal ones too. Having read the Bible, alot of SF & all of Dick's works would certainly help in understanding the book. Knowing the people involved would also. The book is angry, confused, neurotic, and brilliant, like Phil was. He yearns for, and half-believes in, a mystic, quasi-religious reality where spiritual elites exist and discover each other through subtle messages hidden on TV and in movies. Age-old conspiracies, "Others", and God-cum-human are an integral part of the universe. Just as we expect these things in SF, Dick proposes them to be real. Dick exposes himself as he is, he extols the mystic, and bemoans his personal loss of the two girls [sic]. Ironically Doris now bemoans HER personal loss of two men, David (a grand mal seizure), and now Phil. Somehow I find all of this quite fitting, like closing a circle. I cannot recommend VALIS as a book to read to very many people. Only if you are particulary intrigued by the questions posed above and posses a fine sense of the agony of both life and love, and can empathize with a man's struggling would you enjoy reading this. [Robert, YOU would understand.] If you still think of great writers as being all around fantastic people, ones that are conversant, personable, and in control of their own lives (like I did), then avoid VALIS. He leaves few emotional stones unturned, and they are real. -Bil ------------------------------ Date: 18 Aug 1982 1416-PDT From: Henry W. Miller Subject: More Wretched PAC Humour What do you call a flat PACMAN? A Disc PAC... -HWM ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, August 25, 1982 6:02PM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Subject: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The last three messages in this digest touch upon some plot details in the movie TRON. Some readers may not wish to read on. ------------------------------ Date: 20 August 1982 19:15 edt From: Boebert.SCOMP at MIT-MULTICS Subject: The bit in TRON Did anybody notice that the so-called "bit" in TRON was actually tristable? I suppose this makes it a trit. Earl ------------------------------ Date: 30-Jul-82 20:02:45 EDT From: DUNTEMANN.WBST Subject: TRON's Bit Actually, the Bit from TRON is a direct descendant of the Cute Robots (TM) we've seen so much of in recent years. I suspect they get created in random framing errors, or else spontaneously a arise out of alpha particle radiation from the substrate of that most peculiar universe. I kinda liked the Bit, and, knowing Disney, I rather suspected it was going to turn up again later in the move to save Flynn's skin before rolling over and dying sentimentally. One wonders how much of the flick ended up decorating a dumpster somewhere. (Find me that dumpster!) --Jeff Duntemann (duntemann.wbst at PARC-MAXC) ------------------------------ Date: 13 Aug 1982 03:02:36-PDT From: decvax!duke!uok!uokvax!jab at Berkeley Subject: Disney's Divine Comedy I recently had a discussion with a English professor who had just seen TRON. He kept commenting on the similarities to The Divine Comedy (specifically, The Inferno). The descent through Hell, and finding Satan at the bottom (buried to the neck) seem very familiar. Jeff Bowles ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Summary-line: 28-Aug Grath #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #47 Date: Saturday, August 28, 1982 2:11AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #47 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL *** EOOH *** Date: Saturday, August 28, 1982 2:11AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #47 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 28 Aug 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 47 Today's Topics: SF Books - Coils & Courtship Rite & Stand on Zanzibar & Poul Anderson, SF TV - Land of the Lost & Starlost, Humor - Genderless Video Games ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 08/21/82 02:53:52 From: JEH@MIT-MC Subject: Review: \Coils/ by Fred Saberhagen and Roger Zelazny Micro-review: Worth reading once. Good writing, interesting ideas, but not a particularly memorable story. Zelazny really is over-using the rediscovery-of-forgotten-past plotline. At least in \Nine Princes in Amber/ there was some excuse for it: The reader NEEDED a slow, easy introduction to Corwin's home environment. Here (as in many of Z's other books), rediscovery-of-past is the whole story. The obstacles placed in the hero's path are interesting, and his way of getting past them is interesting and well-described -- he can psionically link to, get information from, and control computers -- but the overall story isn't that momentous. The writing is very good, and each chapter flow along well enough, but at the end I realized I'd been cheated a bit -- as if I'd eaten and paid for a dinner that tasted good, but which was neither filling nor nourishing. In particular, the final battle between Our Hero and his enemies wasn't particularly exciting, and not at all climactic; it was just another of his troubles, and I had to keep glancing at the page numbers to be sure that it WAS the final battle (even though the authors kept reminding me that it was, about once every three grafs, in so many words). Worth reading, I suppose, but not worth buying unless you can get it for under two bucks. Sorry about that, Fred and Roger -- I really expected better. ----Jamie Hanrahan ------------------------------ Date: 15 August 1982 1708-EDT From: Hank Walker at CMU-10A Subject: Courtship Rite This story was serialized in the Feb 1, Mar 1, Mar 29, and May issues of ANALOG. As it so happens, I just finished reading it last night (I'm behind on my reading). It deals with the bizarre culture created on a planet by a starship apparently escaping a war. Much of the story deals with the strange customs of the people, and their origins. As one of the characters says in the story, you may not like the rituals, but they were developed to solve a problem, and even though we may have forgotten the problem, it is probably still there waiting to come back if we throw out the ritual. The story is at least as good as anything else I've read lately. ------------------------------ Date: 25-Aug-82 12:01AM-EDT (Wed) From: Todd Allen Subject: Raiders OTLA - John Brunner - Poul Anderson Just came back from seeing "Raiders of the Lost Ark" for the 4th or 5th time. (Yes, I know, not SF!) Was amazed at something -- that movie runs less than two hours, yet it feals much longer. Not that it's boring, but that there's so much packed into it. Some how you feel that it could end when the board the freighter, yet it keeps on going. AMAZING!!! Star Wars had the same quality. This may be a big factor in their popularity. Our arpa gateway was down for a while, so I'm about 1&1/2 weeks behind in my reading. To respond to some things that have flown by ... RE: From: "Ross Nelson" John Brunner's "Stand on Zanzibar" ranks with "1984" and "Brave New World" as anti-utopias. No doubt about it, Zanzibar is one of the best SF novels ever written. It is interesting and absorbing, not only for its plot and ideas, but also for its style and manner of presentation. Perhaps the only TV documentry that never made it to TV. However, why no mention of "The Jagged Orbit", also by Brunner, written the year after Zanzibar. It is every bit as powerful, well written, and relevant. Zanzibar and Orbit may be the two best books Brunner has ever written. Certainly Brunner's recent output has been a disappointment. (Most of his work up to Zanzibar and Orbit realy turned me on -- the last 14 years have been mostly down hill.) Zanzibar and Orbit are two great books, neither one of which has received its due. Zanzibar is well known, but never won any awards or great acclaim. Orbit is virtually unknown, but definitely the equal of Zanzibar. If you haven't read it do so. Read them both - together - they are related, but not the same. Can someone tell me ... I once heard the Bunner did a sequel to Zanzibar (not Orbit). Is this true? Title please! On to Poul Anderson ... I think I have read more works by Anderson than by any one else (except maybe Asimov, who is a daily occurrence and as inescapable as the rising of the sun!). In recent editions of the digest and in reviews I have seen many complaints about the generally poor use of language and quality of writing. Nabokov was pointed out as one of the few who used English well, and literately. To this I answer, READ THE WORKS OF POUL ANDERSON - anything by him (even "The Avitar"). At his very worst, Anderson's work is merely well written and enjoyable. At his best (or almost there), is prose is as beautiful and subtle as any written in any language. Combine this with an informed, intelligent, and compassionate understanding of the human condition, and an immense knowledge of history, folk lore, mythology, literature, and technology, and you have a giant of a writer. Contrary to what some would have you believe, the writers of the forties and fifties are distinguishable, their works have other than historical significance, and they are enjoyable even if you weren't under 20 when the stuff was first written (much of Anderson's best work was written before I was 7). Hopefully, people that say otherwise are saying it only for shock value. If they truly believe what they say, then one must wonder just how perceptive they are as readers and as people. Back to Anderson... I don't mean to say that everything he has written is of great significance, certainly not. He has written his share of space operas. However, even his space operas are no more "just space operas" that "High Noon" is just another western. Among other things, his extreme care and craftsmanship in his use of the language. Anderson is so easy to read, it is often possible to miss the deeper aspects of his books and read them just as escapist literature. It took me years to realize how beautifully crafted ALL his writting is. What made me go back and explore this was my first encounter with his Hugo winning "Goat Song" (Orpheus retold, but with very different impact and meaning). It was while I was rereading his works, enjoying the writting, that I discovered that even when plots and characters bore no relation, most of his books are tied together by a common idea/motive (not profit!). Consider, for example, the set of books "The Dancer From Atlantis" (a marvel!), "The Corridors of Time" (recently downplayed in the digest), "Three Hearts and Three Lions", "The Golden Slave", and his recent historical trilogy biographing Harold Hardrede (the titles don't come to mind at the moment. These books span a period of over thirty years, yet, if you look very closely, there is a common thread running through all of them. What is happening, is that he is looking very closely at our history and folk lore, exploring the possibilities being the myths and legends and exploring what makes us (our culture) what we are. He seems to be exploring the the way events and people shape a culture, with the aim of understanding our own culture better. (Ultimately, he is hooked on his own viking heritage.) (PS: Even van Rijn fits in with this.) About "Brain Wave" (reviewed in a recent digest) -- that book was written in the mid fifties. Given the political and social atmosphere at the time, it is not surprising that Anderson felt the brain wave necessary for liberalization of social, sexual, and dress codes. The shocks that the USA went through in the early sixties, that resulted in this liberalization, was probably almost as great as that resulting from Anderson's brain wave. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Aug 82 0:53:02-EDT (Tue) From: Speaker.umcp-cs at UDel-Relay Subject: SF TV: Starlost and Space Ark (?) and... Date: 12-Aug-82 11:10:24 PDT (Thursday) From: Mackey at PARC-MAXC Subject: SF TV: Starlost and Space Ark (?) and... I think I remember that show. It was about a family (father, son, and daughter) who are out camping and fall through a time-warp onto a planet with futuristic technology, and dinosaurs, but no civilization. This show was called 'Land of the Lost', a Sid and Marty Kroft production aired on Saturday mornings. There were some neat ideas in the story, like the Pylons that were communication/memory devices, and there were some interesting story ideas. One of those storys, called 'Tag Team', was written by Larry Niven and, true to Niven's style, focused more on the interactions of people than on his technology. Does anyone remember Space Ark? I think that was the name of it. It was about a large spaceship with millions of people scattered through it like nations. Close...this one was produced in Canada and was called 'Starlost'. Three people are trying to find the control center onboard a gigantic space ark. Apparently some catastrophe has made the earth uninhabitable so various segments of the earth's population have been uprooted and placed inside giant domes (called bio-spheres I think). Kind of like the idea behind 'Silent Running' but on a much grander scale. They get hold of a pass key that allows them to move between domes. While on the outside they discover that a plague of some sort has killed the entire crew...except those sealed within the domes... - Speaker speaker.Umcp-Cs@UDel-Relay ------------------------------ Date: 18 August 1982 14:53 edt From: Barry Margolin at MIT-MULTICS Subject: Land of the Lost The moderator correctly pointed out that the TV show about a family that falls into this weird land was not called "Starlost". The name of the show was "Land of the Lost". It was a Saturday morning TV show about eight years ago. It actually was quite good, as I remember it. There was a race of neanderthals, and they had a language of their own. The makers of the show seemed to give that up in the second or third season, and they excused it by having the little girl teach them how to speak English. I even remember a TV Guide article about the language. barmar ------------------------------ Date: 18 Aug 82 17:13:56-EDT (Wed) From: Charles Kennedy Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #41 The name of the Saturday morning show that Mackey mistakenly mentioned as being "The Starlost" is really "The Land of the Lost". I too found the Pylons very interesting since they seemed technically sophisticated. I believe that in one of the episodes, one of the Pylons that controlled the weather had gone beserk (or had been sabotaged, I can't remember), but the father was able to get the Pylon working again. Chuck Kennedy ------------------------------ Date: 18 Aug 1982 15:26:24-EDT From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX Subject: The Starlost The pilot episode for this deservedly short-lived TV series was novelized by Edward Bryant under the title PHOENIX WITHOUT ASHES; I'd call it pretty good 50's SF (which is further ahead than most TV was at that time). The book also has "Somehow I don't think we're in Kansas, Toto", which is both the correct quote and Ellison's essay on what happened to the show. In it he specifically says that he demanded at the outset that Bova be hired as science consultant; Ellison had used Bova's technical knowledge before (notably in a short story about cars dueling on the freeway) and knew he couldn't provide the needed realism himself. Bova actually bailed out in disgust fairly early---I think before the first episode was aired. The one instance that he can point to of his advice actually being taken is in the opening shot(?), in which some jackass had wanted to show that the generation ship was drifting, aimless and uncontrolled; the camera was supposed to pan around an "Enterprise"---style control room and lock on a sailing ship's steering wheel rocking back and forth in the middle of all this high-tech clutter. Ben did persuade them that the wheel didn't belong. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Aug 1982 1236-PDT From: CARROLL at USC-ISIF Subject: Items Regarding Kevin Mackey's message in V6#41, the Saturday morning show was "Land of the Lost". Not the best stories, but some nice animation and other effects. It made extensive use of a "magicam" video system for placing live action within miniature sets. I think "The Starlost" listed a Cordwainer Bird as the creator, and that was Ellison's pseudonym.....not sure. Has there ever been a discussion about "Robinson Crusoe on Mars"? One of the best, a very good film, especially considering when it was made ( 1964). Here are the titles, who are the authors? 1. "Operation Springboard"- a crippled teenager becomes a member of the crew of the first ship to Venus... 2. "Space Winners"- some young people take part in an inter- planetary exchange program and get stranded on a planet where the primary weapon is the quarterstaff... Both of these are juvenile type stories. Did ( or does) anyone out there read comics? I really liked the Legion of Super-Heroes in the 60's. Does anyone remember Spyman, featured in the short-lived Harvey comic of the same name? He was a government agent who had lost his hand disarming a nuclear weapon w/o any tools.....his hand was replaced by a robot one, with all sorts of gadgets like detachable finger-grenades. Good stuff. Steve ( carroll@isif) ------------------------------ Date: 19 August 1982 17:18-EDT From: junkmail.umcp-cs@udel-relay Subject: to the person who replied to my mail Here's a TIP from me that you can use: Whenever you are thinking of accusing someone of TACtlessness, remember this TIP well, atTACh a rope around your neck, and direct your atTACk to yourself. We'll all be happier. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Summary-line: 1-Sep Grath #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #48 Date: Wednesday, September 1, 1982 10:16AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #48 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL *** EOOH *** Date: Wednesday, September 1, 1982 10:16AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #48 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 1 Sep 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 48 Today's Topics: SF Books - Stalking the Nightmare & Lensman Series & D'Alembert Series & Robert Heinlein & Podkayne of Mars & Patricia A. McKillip & Ray Bradbury, SF Music - Leviathan, SF Movies - The Martian Chronicles & The Illustrated Man & Revenge of the Jedi, Humor - Genderless Video Games, Spoiler - The Revenge of the Jedi ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Aug 82 11:36:08-EDT (Fri) From: David Axler Subject: Stalking the Nightmare Harlan Ellison's latest work, a collection of pieces spanning the breadth of his career, has just been released by Phantasia Press, a limited-edition house in (I think) Illinois. They're releasing the book in two versions, a $60 signed, numbered, and slipcased very limited edition, and a $16 "trade" version. Even the "trade" version, though, has a fairly small print run (well under 10,000 copies), which means that unless there's a major publisher that is also releasing the book, it's not going to be very available. And that's a pity, as it contains some excellent material. Harlan has re-written or modified much of the old stuff, to its benefit, and included some new or out-of-print material as well. The book is mostly fiction, but also contains four pieces of non-fiction. As always, Ellison's pen seems dipped in acid, but he seems more capable of laughing at himself than some of his recent collections have portrayed him. The intro by Stephen King, written in Ellisonic style, is a nice touch. To my mind, the book is worth owning, if only to hear Ellison tell how he worked for Disney Studios for four hours (before being fired for a reason I won't give away, but which Paul Krassner fans will especially enjoy). Also especially good are the short story "The Grail," and the new rewrite of his introduction to Bova's "The Starcrossed." ------------------------------ Date: 17 Aug 1982 1226-PDT From: Henry W. Miller Subject: E.E. "Doc" Smith Queries 1) One printing of the Lensman series did list the "Spacehounds of the IPC" as part of that series. It is not, however, although it might fit into that timeline. 2) The "Family D'Alembert" series is still in print, to my knowledge. I seem to recall a re-printing of one of the books last fall. This series was based upon notes left by the late Doc Smith, and were adapted into novel form by writer Steve Goldin, under contract from Smith's wife and daughter. I still see these books in print here in the Bay Area. I suggest you check Sci-Fi and Comix stores: they might have them. If not, let me know, and I can probably arrange to pick them up for you. -HWM ------------------------------ Date: 16 Aug 1982 1628-PDT From: Henry W. Miller Subject: Heinlein, the master... I'm out of PAC Puns for the time being, so I'll turn my attention to another subject. In Volume 6, issue 39, there was a good deal of discussion of both Heinlein's juveniles, and some of his more serious books. Lacking from this list are two of my favorite Heinlein books, "Glory Road" and "Starship Troopers". Plenty of action in both of them, and I would definitely not put them in the juvenile class, nor in the class with "Time Enough for Love" and "I Shall Fear No Evil". I would tend to place these books in a class of themselves. (I sat down and reread Troopers five times in a row last winter: I needed a Heinlein fix...) Another book for Heinlein fans is "Expanded Universe", which is a collection of the Master's essays and stories. Although I have not read the book from cover to cover, the skimming I have done makes me believe more firmly than ever that the man knows what he is talking about. On a slightly different topic, I'm glad to see that my mini-review on the Lensmen revival sparked so much mail. I apologize that I did indeed list the books out of order, and have received many comments on that. (I ALWAYS list them out of order...) The characters of Heinlein and Smith are very similar: larger than life heros that will not be defeated. Likewise the villains are the embodiment of evil. My own writing (I haven't published yet, will let you all know when and where the story will be) has been very much influenced by these too. I haven't got around to digging up the answers to all the questions in the Trek Trivia message I sent out a few weeks back, but will do so shortly. Thanks to all who sent messages back. Sorry for running on so much, but I find it hard to settle back into reality on Monday's... -HWM ------------------------------ Date: 16 Aug 1982 2126-EDT From: Paul Czarnecki Subject: Heinlein (SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #39) I believe that the juvenile Heinlein books are excellent for their age group and can even stand alone as reasonable books to read for "non-juveniles." "Rocket Ship Galeleo" and "Citizen of the Galaxy" were the first two SF books that that I ever read. Something must of clicked then, for I have continued to be an avid SF reader ever since. I recently re-read "Podkayne of Mars" and I have a spaceship design question. She claims that the ship has 4 concentric layers of shielding, each capable of stopping 90% of the radiation hitting hit. Each layer separates the deck form the one above it. Therefore the safest place is in the center of the ship which is VERY crowded emergency storm shelter. My first thought was, How silly, Simply put all four layers on the outside and make the whole ship equally safe. Almost immediately I realized that there would be a weight problem. But why not have one layer out at the original radius (call it 4r) and a triple layer at 2r. This should still weigh the same (if I made a silly arithmetic error, I pre-apologize). Now punt the emergency shelter of radius 1 and instead put in a 3rd class of radius 2. leave half of it empty. 1st and 2nd class passengers can stay in the middle while 3rd sits at home during the storm. Same weight and more comfort! Would there be other underlying reason why this would not be done? -pZ ------------------------------ Date: 17 August 1982 14:19 mst From: Lippard at M.PCO.LISD.HIS (James J. Lippard) Reply-to: Lippard%PCO-Multics at MIT-MULTICS Subject: Patricia A. McKillip I have read the three Riddlemaster books and The Forgotten Beasts of Eld. In my opinion, they rank up in the top 5 worst books I have ever wasted my money on. McKillip seems to care more about making up unpronounceable names than anything else. And the Riddlemaster books plodded on so slowly, I don't think anything happened worth noting in the whole trilogy, at least nothing I cared about. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Aug 1982 0:05:04 EDT (Monday) From: Winston Edmond Subject: Ray Bradbury From a column by Marilyn Beck in the Sunday, August 22, paper: Master science-fiction author Ray Bradbury is turning his talents to opera -- a sci-fi opera he promises will be "sort of 'Moby Dick in Outer Space.' " "I'm writing the entire libretto and I'm searching for a composer now," he reports. He adds he created the story nearly a decade ago under the title of "Leviathan," that it was produced for the BBC, and as a local, small-theater presentation, and that the latest plan calls for the introduction of its musical adaptation by the Seattle Opera in 1984, "and then it's to be produced in Los Angeles during the Olympic games." Bradbury is also working on plans to bring his classic "The Martian Chronicles" and "The Illustrated Man" to the big screen. That latter work was the basis of a 1969 Warner Bros. movie, but, he says, "It was pretty bad. I don't think anyone at the studio knew how to read -- they certainly hadn't read the book. The script was written behind my back, without my knowledge, and was terrible." Just as terrible, he feels, was NBC's six-hour 1980 interpretation of "Chronicles" about what life might be like on Mars. But, he says, "fortunately I retained ownership to both works." -WBE ------------------------------ Date: 19 August 1982 03:24-PDT (Thursday) From: Scott M. Hinnrichs Subject: PacMan jokes What if they live on the east coast?... must they PAC it up and move to the PACific coast in order to use the PACific-TELefone? Everybody wants in on the PacMan craze... even the CARS... their new album... "PAC It Up" ...available soon on LP's, cassettes, and ATARI cartridges. (<... ------------------------------ Date: 19 Aug 1982 2220-EDT From: JHENDLER at BBNA Subject: those "genderless" puns My OED has pages and pages of words starting with the letters PAC and with other spellings pronounced the same (pach, pak, etc.) If you also include words with an embedded "pac": we start running into the hundreds and perhaps thousands. The upshot of this is that the PAC puns could go on virtually forever. I for one plea for a cessation of these unless they are some of those unspeakably clever ones that really cause a major groan. thanks, Jim Hendler ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, September 1, 1982 10:16AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Subject: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The last message in this digest touches upon some plot details in the movie Revenge of the Jedi. Some readers may not wish to read on. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Aug 1982 1903-PDT From: Henry W. Miller Subject: Preview of "The Revenge of the Jedi" In the current re-release of "Star Wars, Chapter 4, 'A New Hope'", there is a three minute spoiler with scenes from "The Revenge of the Jedi". These are some comments that friends at DEC-MARLBORO have forwarded to me. -HWM Date: 24 Aug 1982 2333-EDT From: Reed B. Powell Subject: Preview of "The Revenge of the Jedi" 1. Am not sure if that is Hans with the saber or not. It occurred during the footage alloted to Luke, but did not look like Luke. Looked more like Hans. Will keep a sharp eye open next time. 2. Did you notice anything different (from EMPIRE) about Obi Wan? He is no longer an apparition, as he was there (desert scene and marsh scene). Was Yoda's famous "No, there is another" meant to mean (as has been my contention for some time) "no, there is another [hope]" which means that the "answer" is not necessarily some specific "new" person, but simply another hope. In other words, was he referring to his ability, possibly not known to Obi Wan, to revive Obi Wan from his new of my existence to reality, as it were. 3. How did you like the Princess' new clothes? Talk about shedding former images! Sort of a cross between Jane (without Tarzan) and Barbarella. Looks interesting. 4. Wonder what Lando's role in all of this is? Maybe the scenes of him in the Falcon were pre-rescue (of Hans), and he sort of drifts out of the action after Hans returns. 5. Did you see the artwork for the scenes being shot in the desert outside of Yuma? (see June 82 Fantastic Films). Interesting new vehicles and such. That's about it. What all did you catch in it? Will let you know if I pick up anything more when I see it again before the run closes. -reed ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Summary-line: 1-Sep Grath #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #49 Date: Wednesday, September 1, 1982 10:07AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #49 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL *** EOOH *** Date: Wednesday, September 1, 1982 10:07AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #49 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 2 Sep 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 49 Today's Topics: Administrivia - Opinions from SU-LOTS, SF Topics - Opinions from SU-LOTS ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wednesday, September 1, 1982 10:07AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS-REQUEST at SRI-CSL Subject: Opinions from SU-LOTS Some of the following material is from the BBoard at SU-LOTS, and was submitted by Stuart M. Cracraft (mclure at SRI-UNIX). It was thought to be of interest to the readership. Since LOTS is not on the net, responses cannot be made to the original submitters - however, people should feel free to discuss the topics and issues raised. Jim ------------------------------ Date: 18 Aug 1982 0852-PDT From: Mike Peeler Subject: 1-dim ratings One-dimensional ratings do not at all indicate one-dimensionality of the field. It shows only that the opinions expressed are one-dimensional. You can feel your heart while reading and come up with an assessment of the intensity of your response. That technique seems to reduce the problem to a simple magnitude without any preten- sion of capturing the full richness of the field in one little number. Regards, Mike ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 17 August 1982 05:42-EDT From: RG.JMTURN at MIT-MC Subject: Correction to LOTS comment Anne McCaffrey's secondary Dragonrider series (A.K.A the Harper Hall series) runs Dragonsong, Dragonsinger, Dragondrums. James ------------------------------ Date: 26 Aug 1982 2030-EDT From: Larry Seiler Subject: Correction to a correction on opinions from su-lots A person called "csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX" made the following statement: DUNE does not pander to any mystic cult; it came out before almost all of the popular expressions of drugs (e.g. songs ranging from "Mr. Tambourine Man" to "Puff, the Magic Dragon" ... Lets set the record straight: "Puff, the Magic Dragon" was not written as a drug song. DUNE is copyright 1965; "Puff..." was written around 1960. So if DUNE predates popular drug usage, so does the song. And if you prefer a more straigtforward proof, Paul Stookey stated in an interview that it wasn't written as a drug song. So why does it use drug terminology? Most likely, the terminology was copied from the song. 'Nuff said. Larry ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jul 1982 1432-PDT From: M.McLure at SU-LOTS (Stuart M. Cracraft) Subject: Dune and Farmer M.MELKAR wondered how Herbert could produce such a winner as Dune and such losers as its sequels. Simple! It is fairly well known that Herbert was getting a lot of advice from John W. Campbell during the period when he was writing Dune. I believe that Campbell could almost be listed as a second author of Dune. He probably injected an enormous number of suggestions into its creation. Herbert has not admitted this, but many critics believe it to be true nonetheless. Campbell was also responsible for much of the idea behind the Foundation trilogy. Asimov has been truthful enough to admit his debt to Campbell for this help. Campbell is probably partially responsible for numerous other classics and was the main shaper of SF as we know it. Back to Farmer again. One of my favorite quotes about Farmer's writing is in an essay by Rottensteiner in one of the Science Fiction Studies criticism collections: (In reference to TO YOUR SCATTERED BODIES GO) "What little value the novel has lies wholly in the fact that it presents in an almost pure form the particular method of mass-market SF -- that is, playing around with a limited set of elements that are combined and recombined to infinity. A kaleidoscope of oddities that is simultaneously derivative, self-perpetuating and incestuous; a mixtum compositum of almost unlimited assimilative powers, ahistorical and devaluating; readily accepting what is intellectually bankrupt, and bankrupting what initially had some value, before it was drawn into the gigantic junk-yard of SF, where everything is but a pretext for another cops-and-robbers story -- regardless how the figures are called, and whether the background is the earth, some other planet, the galaxy, past present or future, some other dimension, or indeed the afterlife. What does this all suggest? Farmer presents hellish worlds, before birth and after it, into which a vague hope is introduced only as an additional torture. They depict various degrees of degradation of man, and reject the autonomy of human values and human beings. These stories proclaim the Fortean doctrine that man is only property, utterly at the mercy of beings with remarkable powers, "gods" or "ethicals," who appear to be childlike, prankish, sadistic dimwits, taking delight only in causing pain and suffering. Even death offers no escape from the torturers since it has lost its uniqueness and become a playful act that can be reversed or repeated at will. The author of such "gods" does in fiction what they are supposed to do in reality: he plays around with shocking situations and possibilities, without justifying them or giving them a larger meaning. Sometimes these creations are, in their vividness of description, remarkable as fruits of grotesque imagination; but I think they are never of any importance as speculative thought, as intellectual effort." ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jul 1982 1211-PDT From: T.TIME at SU-LOTS Subject: S.F. Authors One author that I didn't see on M.Melkars list of novels and authors was Andre Norton. I have only read one of her novels "Breed To Come" but I was very impressed by it. It is an Earth in the futur type story after all humans have left the planet and the animals have evolved. It's quite interesting. T.Parker ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jul 1982 1135-PDT From: M.MELKAR at SU-LOTS Subject: Science Fiction Rating list I think I'm not alone in appreciating A.AVERY's SF list even though his tastes are different from mine, thanks Avery. The following will be my last SF list, from here on I'll stick to specific reviews and kibbutzing other peoples lists. I attach all the usual caveats to this list: my tastes are jaded, etc. Poul Anderson Trader to the Stars B Mirekheim (sp?) B James Blish A Case of Conscience C+ [boring] S. Delany [an overrated author in my opinion] Triton C+ Charles V. DeVet, Katherine MacLean Second Game A+ H. Ellison I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream A+ [short stories] Frank Herbert Destination: Void C+ The God Makers C Aldous Huxley Brave New World A [a classic] Fritz Leiber [important author and a very nice man, too] -Leiber has written some excellent short stories- The Big Time B Stanislaw Lem [people tend to overrate this author though he is good] Solaris A Larry Niven [One of my favorites] The Mote in God's Eye B A Gift from Earth B The Flight of the Horse C [Niven's biggest turkey] A World out of Time B+ Long ARM of Gil Hamlin B Andre Norton Galactic Derelict B Moon of Three Rings C+ Star Gate B+ [My favorite by Norton] George Orwell 1984 A [a classic] Frederick Pohl Beyond the Blue Event Horizon A [Gateway sequel] J.R.R. Tolkien [the first and last in self consistant fantasy] Silmarillion A- [Melkar rules!] Hobbitt A+ Lord of the Rings A Farmer Giles of Ham B+ Smith of Wooton Major A [Avery is right on this one] The Adventures of Tom Bombadil B [never understood this one] Leaf by Niggle (sp?) A [Avery would love this] Evgeni Zamiatin [the Russian Orwell, though not as good] We A- This concludes my final list. I'd like to comment that too many times people sight the major authors such as Niven, LeGuin, Farmer for people to read without mentioning the less well known people who are just as good but so recent that their reputations are not yet established. Stephen Goldin is an execellent author and he has one claim to fame that to my knowledge no other SF author has: all his books are great (he's yet to write a turkey). No doubt in time that will change. "Second Game" by DeVet is among my favortites but I seem to be the fourth person who has read this novel, (classic case of the starving genius). Alexi Panshin is among the top five SF authors in my opinion, and hardly anyone has read him except for "Rite of Passage" which is an excellent book. His best work however, is the "Anthony Villiers series" which I intend to write a review on for BBOARD as soon as I've completed the David Lindsay review. Would anyone be willing to proof read my Alexi Panshin review, (preferably someone who has read the Villiers series)? I would still like to see other reviews, particularly by people with tastes different from Avery and myself. G. Allen ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jul 1982 1204-PDT From: P.PHIGMENT at SU-LOTS Subject: sf authors... Why didn't you give Jerry Pournelle any credit for The Mote in God's Eye, G. Allen? And if Larry Niven is one of your favorites, then why didn't you remember that Gil the ARM's last name is Hamilton? Just wondering, don't take me wrong. -pH ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jul 1982 1229-PDT From: M.McLure at SU-LOTS (Stuart M. Cracraft) Subject: Ellison's stories There's only so much of Harlan that I can take, but some of it is amazingly good, intense, vivid. For example, his story collection DEATHBIRD STORIES is one of my all-time favorite books. It's sort of an assemblage of his best work up until the time it was compiled. SHATTERDAY, his most recent collection, is also good, but rather different, more introspective, less frenetic. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jul 1982 1628-PDT From: P.PARDNER at SU-LOTS Subject: Wiz. of Zao?? Has anyone read a sf novel, "the Wizard of Zao". That may not be the correct title, and I CAN'T remember who wrote it. If the name rings a bell, please let me know who authored it. It was a VERY cute sf/fantasy-type about a little green wizard (like Yoda, with a sense of humour) who has a knack for great jokes, screwing up spells, and general mischief. The reason I'm interested is that the author was supposedly making this book the first in a series of N (5? 6?), with one book devoted to each planet in his own little solar system. I'm very interested in finding out if any more have been forthcoming. As I recall, the book was one of the most DELIGHTFUL I'd ever read -- full of humour, fantasy, and a cute surprise ending when we find out who the wizard REALLY is. -- can anyone help? -- pardner ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Summary-line: 1-Sep Grath #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #50 Date: Wednesday, September 1, 1982 10:07AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #50 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL *** EOOH *** Date: Wednesday, September 1, 1982 10:07AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #50 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest 10-Oct-82 Volume 6 : Issue 50 Today's Topics: SF-LOVERS is back after a *long* delay. Beastmaster, evaluating authors, Revenge of the Jedi, E.E. Smith works, Christine Chapel, Lem, HHGttG, superconductor, here's the plot ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Note from moderator: Due to some unforseen problems, there has been a reshuffling of moderators. The moderator of SF-LOVERS is Stuart Cracraft (mclure@sri-unix). Jim Mcgrath, the former moderator, has retired. Since I have never handled digests before, expect some oddities in the first few digests. Feel free to send suggestions about the digest format. As always, submissions should be sent to SF-LOVERS@SRI-CSL and requests should be sent to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@SRI-CSL. Note that it will be faster sending to the latter of these for requests rather than sending to my personal mailbox. Stuart -------------------- Date: 29 Aug 1982 at 1628-CDT From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 Subject: Beastmaster provenience To: sf-lovers at sri-csl ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ WHAT'S/WHOSE "BEASTMASTER"? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Somewhere, recently, I ran across a reference to a couple writers doing a screenplay of Andre Norton's BEASTMASTER. (I've checked here in SF-L, in LOCUS, and in STARLOG, but haven't been able to find it again.) I thought, "Hey, that's great!" BEASTMASTER is classic Norton, and as I thought about it, seemed to be likely to be readily adaptable to cinematic presentation. I expected that if ever such a project really got underway, there'd be mention of it by our knowledgeable SF-LOVERS cinemaddicts. Suddenly I see in the local paper an advertisement for a movie called BEASTMASTER. The picture in the ad looks Conanesque: a blond-ish, well-thewed hero brandishing a sword, accompanied by a near-nekkid, cringeing, barbarian-looking damsel. BEASTMASTER?!? Could \this/ be Norton's BEASTMASTER? There is no reference to Norton among the credits. Her hero, Hosteen Storm, is Amerindian, not a blond. The book is SF, not sword-and-sorcery, and the only female is an elderly Amerindian woman "walk-on" right at the end. In short, no mighty thews, no swords, no barbarians, no damsels. I called the theatre to get the name of the character, too small and blurred to read in the ad, played by John Amos. I was told it was "Seth" (couldn't find and "Seth" in flipping thru the book) and that his part was of the king's guardsman. The book has neither kings nor guardsmen. What the book does have are 4 animal companions of the hero-- a large feline, an eagle, and a pair of meerkats. The picture in the ad shows the hero accompanied by 4 animals in addition to the cringeing damsel-- a large feline, an eagle, and a pair of what I can only presume to be meerkats. Can anybody explicate the book-movie relationship? I've got a sick feeling that it IS "from Norton", very, very f-a-r from, and that it's definitely NOT "Ya-tah-hay"! -------------------- Date: 27 Aug 1982 1117-MDT From: Henderson at UTAH-20 ( Tom Henderson) Subject: Evaluating Authors To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI Some major authors missing from the evaluation lists include: ** Olaf Stapledon Last and First Men, Last Men in London ,etc. ** Rene Barjavel Ravage, Le Diable L'Emporte, Le Grand Secret, etc. (sorry, I have the French versions and don't know the English titles.) ** Herbert W. Franke Zarathustra kehrt zurueck, Ypsilon minus, etc. (ditto/German above) ** Zenna Henderson (no relation) The People, etc. ** Gore Vidal (I've always wondered whether or not a writer is disqualified from being labeled a "science fiction" writer once the quality of the writing exceeds a certain level!) Myra Breckinridge, Messiahs, etc. These are just some of the science fiction writers of major import missing from the reports. Also, I've seen it said in SFL that science fiction is in some sense an *American* genre; unfortunately, I believe that *pulp peurile SF* is the American contribution. Science fiction has been around quite a while in various forms: Americans have merely banalized it! Tom Henderson (HENDERSON@UTAH-20) -------------------- Date: 29 Aug 1982 1601-CDT From: Greg Elder Subject: Revenge of the Jedi To: sf-lovers at MIT-AI The October issue of Epic Illustrated shows a couple of production paintings from RotJ. The magazine also states that the movie is scheduled to be released on Friday, 27 May 83. -------------------- Date: 24 August 1982 21:48-EDT (Tuesday) From: David Dyer-Bennet Subject: SF Lovers submission To: young at market ( Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #40 ) (Tim Shimeall ) Spacehounds of IPC has no apparent connection to other works. The tone is closer to Skylark than to the Lensman universe, but there is no evidence of any connection. The Family D'Alembert series is published by Pyramid as by E.E. "Doc" Smith with Stephen Goldin. I have only 4 volumes of it; my last, Getaway World, carries a 1977 copyright date. I have seen them in stores much more recently than that, in fact within the last year. -------------------- Date: 24 Aug 1982 2356-EDT From: DD-B To: YOUNG at MARKET Reply-to: DYER-BENNET at KL2137 DTN: 231-4076 Mailstop: MRO1-2/L14 Subject: SF Lovers submission Message-ID: <"MS10(2066)+GLXLIB1(1056)" 11850524677.46.253.7808 at KL2137> More on Doc Smith's Family D'Alembert series: Having checked my book shelves in better light, I see that I have 6 in the series. The first 4 are from Pyramid, as I reported earlier. The fifth is from HBJ, and the sixth is from Berkeley. The copyright on the fifth is 1980. The Best of E. E. "Doc" Smith (HBJ paper, 1979, copyright 1975) contains a story called "The Imperial Stars", which is the first part of the book Imperial Stars. No publication history is given in either place (curse Pyramid and HBJ), but one of the forwards of Best Of dates the piece in 1964. ... Ah ha! The bibliography in The Universes of E. E. Smith (Ron Ellik and Bill Evans; Advent, 1968) credits that to Worlds of IF, May 1964. Then, of course, there is the Lord Tedric series, and Masters of Space.... -------------------- Date: 29 August 1982 22:10-EDT (Sunday) Sender: LECIN at RU-GREEN From: Mijjil (Matthew Jody Lecin) To: Sf-Lovers at MIT-AI cc: Lecin at RUTGERS Subject: Star Trek (random trivia point) But did anyone besides me ever wonder why they named her Christine Chapel? The pun on Sistine Chapel has always amused me. >Mijjil -------------------- Date: 30 Aug 1982 1139-PDT From: KRIEGER Subject: More Lem To: sf-lovers at SRI-CSL Well, some people must think I have a one-track mind, but since some others seem this way to me, I don't feel so bad. I have just finished a recent Lem acquisition which has been out since the early seventies. It is translated from German translated from Polish, but it seems to have survived pretty well. The book is THE INVINCIBLE; it could be classified in the genre of "realistic SF," which to some people is a contradiction in terms. Anyway, the story concerns the cruiser INVINCIBLE as it touches down on planet REGIS III to investigate the disappearance of the cruiser CONDOR several years earlier. The CONDOR is found is somewhat battered condition, and the crew members that are found are dead. The crew of the INVINCIBLE is at a loss to explain how this could have happened, and in the process of investigation, they uncover mysterious clues about insect-like "flies." Strong magnetic fields also seem to play an important part in the mystery, as does the inexplicable circumstance of several people having part or all of their memory erased. I won't give away further details of the story for those who might be interested in reading it; I thought it was very good, myself. Once again, Lem has involved his interest in artificial intelligence in his writing, which makes for a novel idea and interesting reading. Another theme which gets introduced later in the book is the purpose and morality (maybe there's a better word) of man's trying to colonize and conquer things which may be beyond both his mental and physical reach. This book is good reading for people who enjoy a mystery that is solved slowly. It deals quite a bit with the thoughts of a few of the characters, and it's quite possible some people might find it boring for lack of action, since it has few intense battles or whatever some people need to keep their interest. It is quite like SOLARIS in that it involves the psychology of men in space who almost seem to wage war with the planet they land on, somehow knowing deep down that they can't win. This is NOT a lighthearted book, and readers familiar with Lem's playfulness in works such as the CYBERIAD and MORTAL ENGINES will find none of that here. THE INVINCIBLE is similar in form to some of Lem's TALES OF PIRX THE PILOT; thus, people who have found those boring will probably find this equally entertaining. For people interested in seeing a different side of Lem, THE INVINCIBLE is a good place to look. -------------------- Date: 30 Aug 1982 1541-PDT From: Tom Wadlow Subject: Vol III of HHGttG To: sf-lovers at MIT-AI Copies of the British paperback edition of Douglas Adams' "Life, The Universe, and Everything" (the third volume of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy), are available at the Green Apple bookstore on Clement St. in San Francisco. Be warned: the imported edition is $4.50!!! But if you're desperate (I certainly did not feel *that* desperate) -------------------- Date: 29 August 1982 18:17-PDT (Sunday) From: GANESHA at OFFICE-1 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC Reply-to: GANESHA at OFFICE-1 Cc: GANESHA at OFFICE-1 Subject: References for superconducter What impressed me was the room-temperature superconducting "wire" they possessed. This material has since become reality: last year in ELECTRONICS magazine a researcher at Wright-Patterson AFB announced that an experiment to produce ductile crystals resulted in a material exhibiting ALL properties expected of a superconductor AT ROOM TEMPERATURE....Can anybody provide more information on this subject? K.Karl at SU-LOTS The articles were in Electronics of October 9, 1980, page 41 and September 22, 1981, page 12. Vahldick won't discuss the nitty-gritty details of the process until his patent is granted, which he expects sometime this year. He says the largest crystals he has made so far are 12 to 14 millimeters in the superconducting direction and 2 to 4 mm in the other axes (the stuff is a crystal), but that the limiting factor is his home [!] laboratory. The process starts with titanium bromide (TiB2). If anyone is interested, I would be happy to summarize further, but a different list would probably be more appropriate. (Any suggestions?) Ganesha -------------------- Date: 1 Sep 1982 1625-EDT From: LEWIN at CMU-20C Subject: Here's the plot...(t.v.) To: sfl at SRI-CSL I'm trying to remember the name of an old t.v. science fiction series from the '50s or possibly very early '60s. The hero was a Commander Buzz (?) Correy, who has a faster-than-light spaceship which doubled as a time machine. Among the adventures I remember were plots involving intelligent crystalline life-forms, visiting Salem (Mass.) during the witchcraft trials, and a visit to contemporary (ie-1950s) America to halt a bomb test. Correy's companions included the standard kid, girl, goofy sidekick and dithering scientist, but the plots and science fiction ideas were generally superior. -------------------- Date: 31 Aug 82 19:43-PDT From: mclure at SRI-UNIX To: sf-lovers at Sri-Csl Subject: Jedi update a280 1928 31 Aug 82 AM-ENT--Jedi, Adv 09,570 $Adv 09 For Release AMs Thurs Sept 9 ''Jedi'' A Box-Office Bonanza for 1983 By BOB THOMAS Associated Press Writer HOLLYWOOD (AP) - With ''Star Wars'' earning more millions five years after its original release, the nation's theater owners can look forward to another bonanza next summer: ''The Revenge of the Jedi.'' It's the third of George Lucas's space trilogy, part of a saga that may expand to a total of nine films. ''Jedi'' has completed principal photography: 12 weeks in huge stages at EMI Elstree studios near London, two months of locations in the desert of Yuma, Ariz., and the redwood forests near Crescent City, Calif. Now the film is in the hands of the wizards at the Lucas subsidiaries, Industrial Light and Magic and Sprocket Systems, at San Mateo in northern California. Howard Kasanjian gave a progress report by telephone from production headquarters. ''We're in the post-production stage now, and the special effects are a mammoth undertaking,'' reported the producer. ''Everything is on schedule, but we'll probably finish two hours before the final prints have to be shipped, as with 'Star Wars' and 'The Empire Strikes Back.''' Like Lucas, Kasanjian is a graduate of the University of Southern California film school. He joined the Directors Guild training program in l965 and worked as assistant director for Francis Coppola, Sam Peckinpah, Elia Kazan, Billy Wilder and Alfred Hitchcock. Kasanjian hooked up with Lucas to produce ''More American Grafitti,'' was executive co-producer on ''Raiders of the Lost Ark'' and producer of ''The Revenge of the Jedi.'' ''The new film is as big if not bigger than the first two,'' said Kasanjian, 40. ''A lot of action, a lot of excitement. As the conclusion of the trilogy, it answers a lot of questions: Is Vader really Luke's father? Who gets the Princess? Does she live? Will the robots stay together? Will they be melted down? Audiences will learn more about the characters, where they came from, how they became what they are. ''It's a super film - though I never want to get hyped up about any picture. Even though I knew we had an excellent script with 'Raiders,' I didn't say anything about it. A week before it was released, nobody knew what it was about.'' ''The Revenge of the Jedi'' brings back the principals of the two earlier films: Mark Hamill, Harrison Ford, Carrie Fisher, Alec Guinness, Billy Dee Williams, Frank Oz, etc. The director is Richard Marquand of Great Britain. Cost of the new film reflects its expanded scope, as well the the inroads of inflation. Kasanjian cited these figures: ''Star Wars'' - $10.5 million. ''The Empire Strikes Back'' - $25 million. ''The Revenge of the Jedi'' - $32.5 million. ''If we made 'Star Wars' today it would cost $22 million,'' Kasanjian remarked. Labor in Great Britain ''has risen 33 per cent since 'Empire' three years ago. The cost of living allowance for Americans has risen 49 per cent.'' The producer remarked that Lucas has a story outline for the next three films of the saga. The scripts may be written at the same time, with the first two being filmed simultaneously - ''so we can release one every two years instead of every three years,'' said Kasanjian, adding cautiously: ''Whether we go ahead depends on the reaction to 'Jedi'.'' Meanwhile the money machine grinds on. Lucas and Steven Spielberg have a finished script for the ''Raiders'' sequel, tentatively called ''Indy 2,'' and filming is scheduled to begin next spring. End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 11-Oct #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #51 *** EOOH *** Date: Wednesday, October 11, 1982 10:07AM From: Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #51 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest 11-Oct-82 Volume 6 : Issue 51 Today's Topics: The last issue was #50, not #42. Dr. Who in Boston, Oath of Fealty ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 Oct 1982 1849-EDT From: Larry Seiler Subject: Dr. Who lovers in Boston take note: To: SF-Lovers at BRL On Thursday, Oct. 21, channel 2 will start playing a new season of Dr. Who episodes (the ones after Invasion of Time, where Leela departs). The show airs at 7pm daily. -------------------- Date: 21-Sep-82 21:42:03-PDT (Tue) From: UCBVAX.decvax!minow@Berkeley Subject: "Oath of Fealty" To: ucbvax!sf-lovers@Berkeley "Oath of Fealty" by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle has just been published in paperback (Pocket Books). While I would have liked just a bit better writing -- the book reminded me of Arthur Hailey's "Hotel" -- the book raises a number of interesting issues about the relationship between an individual and the social environment. The title refers to the feudal oath, whereby the vassal promises to serve the nobility, while the nobility promises to care for the vassal (see Tuchman's "A Distant Mirror"). There were several ideas in the book that I found profoundly disturbing -- the willingness with which people traded their personal integrity and privacy for the security of an environment without muggers was the most striking. I recently translated the Swedish Data Privacy Law and was amazed to see how many ways the "nobility" of Niven's and Pournelle's book violated what the Data Privacy Law calls "personal integrety." I was also reminded of Brunner's "Shockwave Rider" and hoped to read of some safety valve such as Brunner's "Hearing Aid." Another idea that seemed strange in such a "normal," mainstream book was the way in which the leaders of the feudal community, Todos Santos, ignored the laws and leaders of the surrounding society when these got in the way of what they saw as their feudal responsibilities. (Which was the point of the book, by the way.) One other minor point of annoyance -- here and there in the book the authors drop brand names: "Bulova watch," "Dec computer." Why? And why didn't they go whole hog with, say, "Atlas-Copco tunnelling machines." Martin Minow decvax!minow @ Berkeley -------------------- Date: 22 Sep 1982 15:47 PDT From: Hoffman at PARC-MAXC Subject: So THAT'S what we are! To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL From "Other Networks" (as quoted in the current CoEvolution Quarterly): "Around 1870, a group of hobbyists who all owned their own printing presses, and who had been sending matter that they had written to each other in the mail, decided that it would be simpler to all mail their printing to one person, who would collate it, and mail to each contributor a package containing one copy of each contribution. Thus was born the United Amateur Press Association (UAPA). By the 1920s this and other "apas" had evolved into forums for conversation. H.P. Lovecraft, the horror-fantasy writer belonged to an apa in the 20s. When science fiction fandom began in the 1930s, fans who were members of "mundane" apas spread the idea. SF fans took to it so well that South of the Moon, the index of apas within science fiction fandom, now lists more than 70 apas." --Rodney Hoffman -------------------- Date: 22 Sep 1982 1730-PDT From: Henry W. Miller Subject: Star Trek: The old and the new To: sf-lovers at SRI-CSL cc: Miller at SRI-NIC Last week, I happened to see the first Star Trek pilot that William Shatner appeared in, "Where No Man Has Gone Before". There was an interesting throw-away line you might appreciate. After Gary Mitchell has been mutated by the energy barrier at the edge of the galaxy, he and Kirk are talking in Sick Bay about the "old days" at Star Fleet Academy. Mitchell says, "...If I hadn't aimed that little blond lab technician at you..." Kirk flares back, "You planned that? I almost married her..." Could that certain lab technician have been named Carol Marcus? -HWM -------------------- Date: 24 Sep 1982 1624-EDT From: Margot Flowers to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL subject: here's the plot .... cc: Black at YALE ... can anyone tell me where it has appeared? A friend would like a pointer to this short story, which I read in a collection a few years ago. I'm pretty sure it was set at UCSD's Psychology Department and concerned fictional experiments over what kind of world model and behavior would develop in a chimp (or some other pimate) which grew up from infancy in a world that followed different physical laws -- specifically, one in which telekenesis was possible. The chimp was exposed to apparently telekenetic situations via magician props, i.e. put a piece of fruit under a box and then lift the box and the fruit is not there, having "moved" to somewhere else in the cage. It turns out that the chimp, believing that telekenesis exists, develops those skills herself (himself?) and begins to remotely manipulate objects in the lab. The end as I remember was rather dumb (but I won't repeat it here). Thanks -- Margot Flowers Flowers@Yale -------------------- Date: 27 Sep 1982 1522-EDT From: PERKINS at DEC-MARLBORO To: SFL at SRI-CSL Mail-11-reply-address: "MENTOR::PERKINS" Subject: NESFA Story Contest Announcing the return of the NEW ENGLAND SCIENCE FICTION ASSOCIATION SCIENCE FICTION STORY CONTEST 1. The contest is open to all amateur writers. An amateur is defined as someone who has never SOLD a story to a professional publication before 1 Septermber 1982. 2. Stories must be less than 7,500 words long; must be the original work of the per son submitting them; and must be either science fiction or fantasy. 3. An entry fee of $1.00 per manuscript will be charged to help defray copying expenses. 4. Stories must be typed in black, double spaced, on one side of 8 1/2 by 11 inch white bond paper, with 1 inch margins all around. The title of the story must appear at the top of every page, preferably centered on the first page and in the wuuper right hand corner of subsequent pages. The pages should be numbered. //HIGH QUALITY// copies, such as Xerox (TM) are acceptable. 5. The author's name must NOT appear on the manuscript, but should appear on a separate cover sheet along with the author's address and the title of the story. Manuscripts will be given an entry number on receipt, and will be identified by this number alone until the final judging is complete. 6. Although all reasonable precautions will be taken to prevent loss of manuscripts while in our hands, NESFA cannot be responsible for such losses. For your own protection, keep a copy of your manuscript. (You need not submit the original.) 7. Each manuscript should be accompanied by a Self Addressed Stamped Envelope for its return. Adequate postage must be provided. 8. Entries must be postmarked by midnight, 1 December 1982. Send them to: NESFA Story Contest Box G, MIT Branch Post Office Cambridge, Massachusetts 02139-0910 9. The results of the contest will be announced at BOSKONE XX, the science fiction convention to be held at Boston's Park Plaza Hotel on 18-20 February 1983. The winner will be awarded a plaque, an inscribed book, and a free Boskone membership (which may be a refund of the membership fee.) Two runners-up and several honorable mentions may also be recongized. 10. Returned manuscripts will be mailed in March, 1983. We will keep an archival copy of finalists' manuscripts, but all other copies will be destroyed. NESFA retains no rights to the stories; all rights remain with the authors of their assignees. 11. Any entry that does not conform to the rules may be refused and the manuscript and entry fee will be returned to the author in the SASE provided. In all cases the decisions of the judges will be final. Reproduction of these rules is authorized and encouraged, provided tha wording is not changed. (Librarians: please post now.) -------------------- Date: 29 Sep 1982 2322-EDT From: Joseph M. Newcomer Subject: Violent futures To: sf-lovers at MIT-AI Perhaps someone can remember who first said this: "The future will be just like the past, because in the past the future was just like the past" joe -------------------- Date: Sunday, 3 October 1982 15:04-PDT From: Jonathan Alan Solomon To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC Address: 3737 So. Hoover St. LA, Cal. 90089-0273 Phone: (213) 743-6861 Subject: Shields coming down sir! Well, I speculate that at the time of M5, the "prefix code" was not part of the Starship Design. I further speculate that the Prefix Code was added sometime between that mishap in the series and the second movie (just in time, I might add!) Cheers, --JSol -------------------- Date: Sunday, 3 October 1982 16:16-PDT From: Jonathan Alan Solomon To: David H. Kaufman Cc: SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC Subject: Chekov and the creepy crawly From: David H. Kaufman Subject: Chekov and the creepy crawly Jsol, I have one question. How was it that McCoy managed to know, without examining the patient or any such (outdated?) medical procedure, exactly the right tool to force out of Chekov's head a creature from a planet that McCoy hadn't been on for at least 20 years, if ever? I guess that's why he's a doctor and I'm not. Dave Kaufman Well, I will speculate that the creature did not come out due to anyone's prodding, but because the victim had become unconscious and it was in search of more food (i.e. victims). I honestly think McCoy was just using his canonical salt shaker on Checkov just to see what the h**l the hole in his ear was for!!! Fortunately for them (and us), Kirk had his trusty phaser set to kill and used it right in the nick of time or McCoy might have been the next victim! Oh well, thats yet another episode to be made into a movie! So shoot me! --JSol -------------------- Date: 6 Oct 1982 0934-EDT From: Alyson L. Abramowitz To: sf-lovers at SRI-CSL Subject: Contributions From ENet SF-LOVERS Posted-date: 11-Sep-1982 To: SF-LOVERS @KIRK Subject: Four from Planet 5 From: STAN AT SCRIBE In reply to a recent inquiry, Four from Planet 5 was written by Murray Leinster. ------------------------------ Posted-date: 04-Oct-1982 To: SF-LOVERS @KIRK Subject: "Foundation's Edge" From: STEVE LIONEL AT STAR [Due to various problems, I'm about a month behind on SFL. So, my apologies if this is dated material. SBL] I imagine that there must be two or three people on this planet who have NOT read Isaac Asimov's "Foundation" trilogy. On the wild chance that any of those are reading this, you'll miss some of the references. Sorry. The time is F.E. 498 (or so), and Hari Seldon's crew on Terminus is doing very well. The latest Seldon Crisis involved whether they should move the capitol of the Foundation off Terminus. Shades of Alaska! Anyway, some bright fellow decides that the Seldon Plan is being followed TOO perfectly - the Second Foundation must still be around guiding things. Meanwhile, at the Second Foundation, some bright fellow decides that the Seldon Plan is being followed TOO perfectly - there must be some other group, (I think of it as a "Third Foundation", though that term isn't used), guiding things. Naturally, neither group likes to think that THEY aren't the leaders of the galaxy, so trouble starts. This is the setting for Asimov's long-awaited fourth book in the "Foundation" series, and it is called "Foundation's Edge" ($14.95 in hardcover). Simply put, it is just as good, if not better, than the original stories. I don't like spoilers, even with warnings, and believe that further plot detail would detract from your enjoyment of the book, so just go buy it and read it. I do have a few comments in general about the book, however. The first couple of chapters have to be waded through, as the Good Doctor tries to enlighten those who haven't read the previous books as to what the Foundation is all about. This is quickly done, however, and he moves into some good action, so withold any judgements until you get further into the book. I did notice that Asimov still seems to be unable to portray women in a reasonable light. At first, it looks like great improvements have been made; Terminus has a woman Mayor and the Second Foundation has Speakers that are women, but the Mayor is shown as an "old battle-axe", and the only female Speaker we meet is a barracuda. There are only two other women with prominent roles in the story. One is a farm-girl, sympathetically portrayed, but shown as dull, not very pretty, and in need of a bath. The other is very attractive, but has lines like "Men have died for my body." Oh, well. "Foundation's Edge" ties together some other Asimov story-universes that one would not think of as being "Foundation", but it is a loose coupling, and not very important to the story as a whole. The ending, though, is of the form "The End (for now)", which implies a sequel. Let's just hope we don't have to wait 25 years for the next one! Steve Lionel -------------------- Date: 6 Oct 1982 10:10:29 EST (Wednesday) From: Jeff Bowles Subject: Life, The Universe, and Everything To: sf-lovers@sri-csl Who sent out the information that LtUaE wasn't to be out until early 1983? I just bought one at a modest bookstore in Norman, Oklahoma. (Hardback, $9.95) Jeff End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 10-Oct SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 52 *** EOOH *** Date: 10 Oct 1982 2227-PDT From: SFL at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 52 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest 11-Oct-82 Volume 6 : Issue 52 Today's Topics: Star Trek, Tron, Fantasy movies, Jedi, Spielberg, etc. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tuesday, 10 August 1982 13:00-PDT From: Jonathan Alan Solomon To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI Address: 2817 Orchard Ave. Los Angeles, CA 90007 Phone: (213) 732-3423 Subject: su password on the Enterprise It could be reasonable to assume that the SU password for YOUR ship was online, since it would have to know whether or not you gave it correctly, but there could be a simple algorithm (someone already said this) and you would have to know this to get the results. In short, Khan could have known the RELIANT's password but not the ENTERPRISE's password. Spock, if he knew the algorithm, could have fed in the proper data (including, for example, the ship's serial number and the name of the Cap'ts first born male child), and come up with the right answer, authorization or not. If I were Star Fleet I would not trust the passwords to other ships or the algorithm for determining same to a computer and some authorization restriction, considering Khan and his crew could have patched in a NOOP instruction around the password check as easily as one can do that in today's world. --JSol -------------------- Date: 05-Aug-1982 Subject: Star Trek II - Spoiler Warning and Bad Joke From: PAUL KARGER AT RDVAX From: PAUL KARGER AT RDVAX This one deserves a spoiler warning. It's also only humorous to DECnet network managers. When Adm. Kirk needed to penetrate the Reliant's security and shut down the shields, he obviously used the DECnet Phase XXVII network control program and said: $ MCR NCP NCP>TELL RELIANT LOWER SHIELDS NCP>... -------------------- Date: 13 Sep 1982 (Monday) 2046-EDT From: OSTER at Wharton-10 (David Oster) Subject: bit in TRON To: sf-lovers at SRI-CSL The bit in TRON was indeed tristable. Its three states were: Yes (presumably +,1) No (presumably -, 0) and Floating. By the way, the sequel to Stand on Zanzibar was "The Sheep Look Up". -------------------- Date: 13 Sep 1982 21:45:28 EST (Monday) From: Mike Meyer Subject: Fantasy Movies To: sf-lovers at sri-csl Cc: mwm at OKC-UNIX There have recently been a couple of Fantasy movies released that share a common feature: They are in the same quality range as the SF of the fifties. That is, the movies use a bad sample of the gendre, and are poorly made. I am speaking of (from personal experience) The Sword and the Sorcerer, BeastMaster, and (via hearsay) Conan. The two of these that I saw I enjoyed for the same reason I enjoy such things as It Conquered the World and Plan Nine from Outer Space. Could it be that when the movies pick up a new gendre that way, there is a tendency for producers/etc. to try and do it cheaply, hoping that the draw will be to the fans of the gendre instead of movie fans? Does this imply that we are going to have to put up with bad fantasy for roughly 25 years before somebody does it right? Comments, anyone? mike -------------------- Date: 14 Sep 1982 11:01:57-EDT From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX To: sf-lovers at sri-csl Subject: re: Revenge of the Jedi At Chicon IV the people who presented a slide show and a special short film on the development of some of the [monsters] in the new cantina band said specifically that Obi-Wan does \\not// come back in the flesh, that they merely haven't gotten around to doing the [ghost] effect yet. This is not implausible, given that trailers being shown the February before the release of A NEW HOPE were missing some cute features of the final cut (e.g. colored light-sabers) but I wonder whether it's just another smokescreen. -------------------- Date: 13 Sep 1982 11:44:21-EDT From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX To: dolata at sumex-aim Subject: Spielberg Cc: sf-lovers at sri-csl The best-known obscure Spielberg film is a non-fantasy (in fact, it's based on an actual incident) called SUGARLAND EXPRESS. It dates from well before CE3K and is about a woman (played by Goldie Hawn, of all people) who snatches her husband from jail and hijacks a police car to prevent the state from taking away her baby. I don't recall either this or RAIDERS being filmed with particularly soft lighting, but my lighitng experience is entirely with stage productions, where the effects of filters are quite different. (According to the AMERICAN CINEMATOGRAPHER, if you're looking for a really softly-lit movie see ANNIE---the lighting supervisor was quote as saying that there wasn't a single instrument without some sort of softening filter over it, ranging from silk to vaseline.) Date: 11 Sep 1982 21:07:22-EDT From: cfh at CCA-UNIX (Christopher Herot) To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: re: Stephen Spielberg's early stuff As far as I know, Spielberg's first feature length work was the made-for-TV film "Duel". It stared Dennis Weaver as a mild-mannered motorist harassed by a homicidal (but unseen) truck driver. It is available on LaserVision videodisk. Not bad for TV. -------------------- Date: 29 August 1982 22:10-EDT (Sunday) Sender: LECIN at RU-GREEN From: Mijjil (Matthew Jody Lecin) To: Sf-Lovers at MIT-AI cc: Lecin at RUTGERS Subject: Star Trek (random trivia point) But did anyone besides me ever wonder why they named her Christine Chapel? The pun on Sistine Chapel has always amused me. >Mijjil -------------------- Date: 29 Jul 1982 0136-CDT From: CS.EMERSON at UTEXAS-20 Subject: the Science Fiction Book Club To: sf-lovers at MIT-AI cc: cs.emerson at UTEXAS-20 I am considering joining the Science Fiction Book Club. Does anyone know if it is a good deal. For instance, what books have constituted their selections over the past few months? Are they reliable? Etc. -------------------- Date: 10 August 1982 12:07 edt From: Boebert.SCOMP at MIT-MULTICS Subject: Copy of old Astounding cover wanted To: sf-lovers at MIT-AI I would like to obtain a copy of the cover of Astounding SF which illustrated a story called "...And a Star to Steer Her By," author unknown, subject space travel in a rocketship called Fafnir. The cover was, I believe, the first time AstoundIing had used photography (of a model, natch.) If any collector has this issue, and would be willing to color xerox it, I would cover all copy/mailing expenses. Replies to me directly, this is really too trivial for the Digest. I would also appreciate author/issue/reprint data on the story. Earl -------------------- Date: 17 Aug 1982 1755-EDT From: YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI Subject: [DD-B : SFL submission] More forwarded DEC SFL - - - - - - - Begin message from: DD-B Date: 16 Aug 1982 1820-EDT From: DD-B To: YOUNG at MARKET cc: dyer-bennet.dean at KL2137 Reply-to: DYER-BENNET at KL2137 DTN: 231-4076 Mailstop: MRO1-2/L14 Subject: SFL submission Message-ID: <"MS10(2066)+GLXLIB1(1056)" 11848366356.38.253.34235 at KL2137> ( Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #34 ) (decvax!utzoo!henry at Berkeley) I finished Dragon Lensman, so I can tell you that you aren't missing much if you haven't. I also saw a second book by David Kyle, Lensman from Rigel, in an "upcoming books" list. I hadn't known the original publication order of the Lensman books, which I suppose shows I'm a lazy reader rather than an energetic fan. The Ellern story you mention has been published as a novel (presumably expanded). I found the divergence of technology to be a great problem -- he suddenly introduced computers into the middle of the Lensman universe!! The lack of computer technology throughout the Lensman series was one of its more humorous points for me, so its appearance startled me. I actually found Triplanetary and First Lensman to be among my favorites in the series. I'm not sure that knowing what they and the forewards to the later books supply really spoils the story. It gives you a different perspective on it, certainly. ( Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #36 ) (A.AVERY at SU-LOTS (l. avery)) You appear to have missed ALL of Heinlein's awards, which include (from memory) Hugos for Double Star, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, and Stranger in a Strange Land. A Canticle for Leibowitz is by Walter M. Miller. ( Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #36 ) (A.AVERY at SU-LOTS (l. avery)) I didn't see Niven & Pournelle's The Mote in God's Eye on your ratings list. Since I agree with you about the importance of A Martian Oddyssey (and agree with your reasons), and about The Gods Themselves in this context, you may care to know that I think the aliens in Mote are the best I've found anywhere. I still like Heinlein's children's books. I'm at least somewhat familiar with the children's books you list. I like Narnia, and the McKillip books, and of course Earthsea. Heinlein's "juveniles" are such a large part of his output, especially of his early output, that ignoring them in evaluating Heinlein is a mistake. I wondered where you got the idea that his fiction is all sex-oriented. It is possible to get that impression from things since Stranger, but the stuff before that has very little sex in it (REALLY very little, like usually none). LeGuin, on the other hand, I don't like too well at all, with the aforementioned exception of the Earthsea trilogy. The Left Hand of Darkness was dull. It had what I consider to be the worst possible single character flaw: the protagonist seemed stupid. It's hard to be sympathetic towards someone that you think is creating his own problems as he goes. I was surprised that that book won awards -- I mean, it had not occurred to me that it could possibly have any chance of winning. I enjoyed The Dispossessed, but it has not drawn me back for re-reading. I re-read it anyway, since I thought I had liked it and normally I'm a heave re-reader, and found that on reevaluation it was a shallow and dishonest book, failing to actually come to grips at all with the problems it claims to address. I'm not sure I have the energy to carry out this discussion with thousands of people helping us, or the energy to re-read yet again these books I didn't like so that I can discuss them from more recent memory. We'll see how it goes.... ( Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #39 ) (Tom Wadlow ) I second the recommendation of The Subspace Explorers. For those rounding out the collection, the other completed real works I know about are Spacehounds of IPC and The Galaxy Primes. I enjoy them all, with perhaps a slight preference for Subspace Explorers and The Galaxy Primes. Also, it is a very interesting exercise to compare them with the usual definition of Space Opera, of which Doc Smith is usually cited as the most standard example. ( Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #39 ) (P.PHIGMENT at SU-LOTS) "Does anyone else out there love E.E."Doc" Smith?" Guilty. (Not that I feel guilty about it). This should be apparent from various remarks above and in previous digests. -------- - - - - - - - End forwarded message -------- Date: 18 Aug 1982 1323-EDT From: ECG.RICH.ALA at DEC-MARLBORO To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI Reply-to: ECG.ALA at DEC-MARLBORO Subject: CONTRIBUTIONS FROM ENET SF-LOVERS Message-ID: <"MS10(2055)+GLXLIB1(1056)" 11848836640.51.332.3290 at DEC-MARLBORO> Posted-date: 14-Aug-1982 To: SF-LOVERS @KIRK Subject: Blade Runner Anachronism (non-spoiler) From: PAUL WINALSKI AT METOO I think that Deckerd having a smallpox vaccination scar is a true anachronism, if he's supposed to have been born in the late 1980's. Sporadic individual cases of smallpox are still reported from the last few endemic pockets in Ethiopia and Somalia, but the disease has been eradicated in the rest of the world. The NIH and AMA now recommend that people NOT be vaccinated unless they are travelling to one of the endemic areas. At the present time, the death rate from vaccination complications far exceeds the risk of contracting smallpox. The smallpox vaccination is already a thing of the past. --Paul W. ------------------------------ Posted-date: 16-Aug-1982 To: SF-LOVERS @KIRK Subject: PAC MAN and TRON From: PAUL KARGER AT RDVAX Did anyone else catch the image of PAC-MAN in TRON on a screen to which SARK pointed? ------------------------------ Posted-date: 27-Jul-1982 To: SF-LOVERS @KIRK Subject: TRON (minor spoiler) & a comment on Reviewers From: DJLONG AT MERLIN Realising that TRON has already gotten a plethora of reviews, I would like to add mine AND review the reviewers. Personally, I thought TRON was the most innovative movie of the century(short of the Jazz Singer, the first full talkie). SW, TESB & ST showed what computers could do if you let them help with the expensive process of sfx. As everyone must, by now, know, TRON takes that to it's next logical step. TRON came across to me as what 'Revenge of the Jedi' is going to be. Basically, a couple of swashbucklers go to defeat the opressor of the opressed. However, I liked the twists given here. There is a touch of religious tastes here that make you think a bit upon leaving the theater. Although TRON may be a bit weak in it's plot in some places, I thought that it was pretty well done considering the circumstances. For example: 1) TRON's (our hero's) comment when he finds out that Flynn (our hacker) is a User, the Gods of the Programs. "Well, then everything you do is according to a plan!". I think we humans are accustomed to the same thoughts on our diety. 2) When Sark (our enforcer) learns that Flynn is a user, keeping in mind that it is the belief in the Users that he (Sark) and MCP (our evil emperor) are trying to wipe out. "Well.... I mean.... Users..... wrote us..." 3) When RAM (the local expendable renegade) is 'de-rezzing'. "Oh my User... Users users......" 4) Considering the circumstances (i.e. if YOU were zapped into a computer's world), I think that the reactions by all parties (programs & users alike) were viable. Flynn: "On the other side of the screen, it all looks so easy." That left me thinking for a while. What if........? The film has other areas where some thought was actually used for a change. I have never seen a hacker better portrayed than the way Jeff Bridges did Flynn. All of the real hot-shots I know act in that cocky, self-assured manner. The bottom line is - Anyone who has an open mind should be prepared to have their socks knocked off. That brings me to the second part of this review. The Reviewers. I know of very few reviewers that maintain an open mind. When something new comes out, they call it 'chaotic and disjointed'. If it's not new, they call it 'the same tired old story that started with ______'. Nothing seems to please them nowadays. Most notable of the Reviewers is Freedman. From the submissions to the SFL I can only gather that his like are geared towards the conservative and unchallenging. Sometimes I and many others get the feeling that the Reviewers are really unaware of whats going on. They seem to be sitting in the proverbial ivory tower, ignorant to societies that are constantly changing. Even more infuriating is that in many cases, the plot details that are given are WRONG. That fact is not isolated to just the Reviewers, but many of the independants have been guilty of it (I must admit that the Reviewers do it more often and the mistakes are frequently big ones). ST:TWoK was reviewed by one of our 'pros' as having 'an ultra-galactic bomb that could wipe out the universe'. While that is true, I would like to see the other side of the Genesis device put there. What about it's life-creating possibilities??? Sometimes, I would like to see these guys plucked out of their towers and placed somewhere in the real world and let them see how some people live and what peoples views on entertainment are. Yes, we have a lot of nit-pickers and it's good to see that many people keep their brains engaged when talking about 'bloopers', but there are limits. I would like to see the Reviewers go into a theatre without pre-conceived notions of what films are supposed to be. I don't know why but SF movies are especially prone to bad reviews. It seems to me that the Reviewers have made a deal with Senator William Proxmire ("... the space program is the biggest waste of money in the government"). How do you get to these people? GO SEE THE MOVIE ANYWAY!! I usually value the reviews in SFL more than the 'wire-service' reviews. Does anyone else out there feel this way? Thanx for the forum, David J. P. Long (MERLIN::DJLONG, DJLONG @ MERLIN) End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 11-Oct SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 53 *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Oct 1982 2227-PDT From: SFL at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 53 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest 11-Oct-82 Volume 6 : Issue 53 Today's Topics: Finding hard to get SF, ET, Bladerunner, Jedi, Tron, Haldeman's WORLDS, Niven & Barnes' DREAM PARK, Farmer's A BARNSTORMER IN OZ Hogan's VOYAGE FROM YESTERYEAR ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 18 Aug 1982 2318-EDT From: Reed B. Powell To: sf-lovers at SRI-CSL DTN: 231-4261 Mail-Stop: MRO2-4/D3 Subject: Finding Hard to Get SF Volumes There have been a few requests of late for information on those hard to find SF oldies. An excellant source is ZIESING BROTHERS, located in Willimantic CT. Their complete address is: Ziesing Brothers 768 Main Street Willimantic, CT 06226 c/o Mark (203)423-5836 The proprietor (Mark) publishes a quarterly listing of their volumes, which include hardbacks, softbacks, paperbacks, first printings, signed volumes, collector's editions, etc. A large selection of British printings (including EE DOC Smith) is also stocked. The quickest route to finding a specific volume is to call mark and ask him to hunt it down for you. -reed ------------------------------ Date: 20 Aug 82 11:22:24-EDT (Fri) From: David Axler To: sf-lovers at Sri-Csl Subject: On Obtaining Hard-to-Find Books of the European Variety Via: UPenn; 20 Aug 82 21:47-EDT Though many of the U.S. and Canadian mail-order and walk-in sf bookstores do carry some amount of material by European writers (esp. British), the brunt of such books are American editions, usually issued several years after the original publication. This can prove frustrating, especially in the case of series books (e.g., Moorcock's Jerry Cornelius tetralogy, the last book of which didn't get released here for five years after its British printing, and when it did get out, it was only available in an omnibus edition with the other three in one binding -- a waste of money if you already had 'em). I've developed a system which, though it does take a bit of my time, gets around these problems [some of which are due, of course, to problems with international copyright laws, while others can be blamed on lazy agents]. The first step is to determine what authors one is interested in. This list might well include Americans, as some books that are out of print here are still in European publication (sometimes in English, sometimes not...). Next, I head for the nearest major library's Reference room, and get out the most recent edition of British Books in Print and its monthly update magazine. I look up each author and, when I find a title that I'm interested in, I note the crucial facts: publisher, publication date, hard/paper back, and, most important of all, the ISBN. Now, there are other sources of listings for books in foreign languages, but since I'm insufficiently competent to read 'em, I ignore them. Those who are fluent, though, might find that translations of their favorite authors take on a new meaning. Once I've got all this information, I send off an order to England's best all-around bookstore, B. H. Blackwell's in Oxford. [Yes, there are some good all-sf stores in the U.K., but Blackwell's has several advantages . . .] I've had an account with them for about ten years, which allows me to pay for books in US currency at their New York bank; they bill about every three months, with no interest, or one can pay each shipping invoice as it comes. If one doesn't have an account, they will accept Mastercard or Visa. If you have an address at an academic institution, as I do, you're also eligible to use their private airfreight service -- they fly the books to the US, and then mail them book rate. If not, they will ship by boat or air, as you request. Unlike a lot of small shops, they impose no fee on any special orders; if they don't have a book, they will attempt to get it ASAP. By the way, with the pound currently worth less than two bucks, this is an excellent time to be buying books from Britain. Another advantage is that the British publishers generally do better work than their American counterparts: cover art is often better, and bindings last longer. Once you've become a regular customer at Blackwell's, you can open your own account. This allows you to regularly receive any or all of the fifty or so catalogues they issue during the course of a year, covering such topics as Fiction, Science & Mathematics, Art, Music, &c. They're an incredibly massive operation (five different stores along an Oxford block: Children's ; Paperback; Music; Arts; and main [which includes what Guinness describes as the largest single book sales room -- over three miles of bookshelves), and can get stuff from almost anywhere with no hassle. Their address is simply Blackwells, Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BQ, England. ------------------------------ From: LDPVAX::GOLD::HENRY 17-AUG-1982 08:09 To: LDP::KIRK::SF_LOVERS I just saw ET for the first time. I think the movie was great. Any flaws I saw at the time were far outwieghed by the way the movie was put together. In past issues of the digest, comments were made about ET's attraction to Elliot's mother. ET is able to communicate thru the use of emotions and feelings. ET is feeling the same affection for Elliot's mother as Elliot does. Others comments I have read deal with the way in which the medical team handled ET's "heart attack". They acted as any other medical team would have acted in the same situation, they did what they have been trained to do. The same can be said for the rest of the Establishment in the movie, right or wrong, they carried out their duties. Just prior to seeing ET, I heard someone talking about how companies pay to have their products featured in movies. I understand that Reeces (sp?) Pieces are very difficult to get because of the great demand since ET was released. I am sure Ma Bell felt having their long distance commercial featured wouldn't hurt and who could forget ET and Coors. I'm sure Elliot won't. I have a question I hope someone can answer. In the first Star Wars movie, there was a difference in the introduction between the first time I saw it and the fifth time, other than changing the Star Wars title, was there another change? Bill ------------------------------ Posted-date: 23-Aug-1982 To: SF-LOVERS KIRK* Subject: The Revenge of the Jedi From: AL LEHOTSKY AT METOO I went to see Star Wars over the weekend again. They are now showing previews for ROTJ. It looks like we've got something to really look forward to. Since the whole preview lasts about 30 seconds, it's tough to give any detailed impressions, but as a minor piece of "intelligence", Han Solo recovers from the carbon freezing chamber. As rumored, there are desert-planet scenes (I don't think that it's Tatooine..) and some beings that are reminiscent of Jawas (but definitely NOT the same culture) as the sand-crawler crowd. Finally, the claim was "coming next summer to a theater in a galaxy near you". Does this mean that the release date won't be 5-21-83? ------------------------------ Subject: Blade Runner Anachronism (non-spoiler) From: PAUL WINALSKI AT METOO I think that Deckerd having a smallpox vaccination scar is a true anachronism, if he's supposed to have been born in the late 1980's. Sporadic individual cases of smallpox are still reported from the last few endemic pockets in Ethiopia and Somalia, but the disease has been eradicated in the rest of the world. The NIH and AMA now recommend that people NOT be vaccinated unless they are travelling to one of the endemic areas. At the present time, the death rate from vaccination complications far exceeds the risk of contracting smallpox. The smallpox vaccination is already a thing of the past. --Paul W. ------------------------------ Posted-date: 16-Aug-1982 To: SF-LOVERS @KIRK Subject: PAC MAN and TRON From: PAUL KARGER AT RDVAX AT PBSVAX at KRYPTN Did anyone else catch the image of PAC-MAN in TRON on a screen to which SARK pointed? ------------------------------ *** SPOILER, the following review of Joe Haldeman's WORLDS reveals *** *** information you may not want to know if you plan to read the book. *** Posted-date: 22-Aug-1982 To: SF-LOVERS @KIRK Subject: "Worlds" From: STEVE LIONEL AT STAR It's the year 2084, and sections of the United States have seceded and formed their own countries. One example is Nevada, where anything is legal. Enter our heroine, young, pretty and intelligent. She gets mixed up in with some revolutionaries, gets kidnapped and raped, and tries to get home while the whole world is battling things out with nuclear weapons. "Oh," you say, "that's Heinlein's newest book Friday." Well, it's not. Instead what we have here is Joe (Forever War, Mindbridge) Haldeman's newest book "Worlds" ($2.50, Timescape paperback). I first picked up Worlds last spring just after reading Friday, and it literally BEGS to be compared to RAH's latest. Luckily for "Worlds", it wins. But don't mlet my introduction make you think that the books are look-alikes, for they aren't. It's just that some of the plot elements are very similar. Ok, lets start over. "Worlds" is the story of Marianne O'Hara, a resident of New New York, one of many "Worlds" orbiting a decaying Earth. New New, as it's known to its residents, is the largest of the Worlds, and is chiefly known for its exporting of foamsteel and importing of tourists. Some, such as Bellcom and Skyfac (!) were, like New New, built by corporations looking to make a buck. Others are true colonies and some are even religious retreats. Marianne, because of her scholastic excellence, wins the rare opportunity to continue her education on Earth. She goes to (Old) New York, and makes friends with a poet named Benny. Marianne and Benny soon get recruited into an organization of revolutionaries who are much more sinister than they let on to the pair. To Marianne, it's somewhat of a "project"; she's willing to do harmless investigation for the group but not get involved in anything serious. Benny, though, learns what the group is really up to and gets in trouble for it. While this is going on, New New has just discovered carbonaceous compounds on the Moon. Until now, the Worlds have been dependent on Earth to supply organic matter; in return, Earth buys satellite-beamed power and minerals. If the Worlds no longer needed Earth to survive, then Earth could no longer be guaranteed of the power it needs to survive. (Sounds reminiscent of the conflict between Earth and Luna in "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress".) Anyway, the Earth governments decide to raise the price of deuterium, which powers New New's ships, without letting New New raise the price of its exports. In return, New New shuts off its power satellite. Things start getting messy. Meanwhile, Marianne gets kidnapped, apparently just because she has become the most prominent Worlds citizen on Earth. (Just why she is prominent is a fascinating detail.) Yes, she does indeed get raped by her captors, but she doesn't "enjoy" it as much as Friday seemed to. Will she be able to get back to New New before Earth blows itself up in aggravation? What about the lovers she has on Earth? It's a "can't put it down" type of story. I loved it. The best news is that "Worlds" is labelled as "Beginning a Major SF Trilogy". Now I recall someone saying in these pages (?) that such a phrase was to doom a story to failure, but not in this case (and not in the case of John Sladek's "Roderick", which I mentioned last April.) "Worlds" is superbly crafted, equal to or better than Haldeman's previous works, and I eagerly anticipate reading future volumes in this series. Steve Lionel ------------------------------ *** SPOILER, the following review of Farmer's A BARNSTORMER IN OZ reveals *** *** information you may not want to know if you plan to read the book. *** Posted-date: 22-Aug-1982 To: SF-LOVERS @KIRK Subject: "A Barnstormer in Oz" From: STEVE LIONEL AT STAR Philip Jose Farmer seems to spend a lot of his time writing stories around characters that someone else created. This is not to say that he isn't creative, since he adds quite a bit of his own talent in the bargain. With "A Barnstormer in Oz" ($5.95, Berkely trade paperback), Farmer brings us the story of Hank Stover, a barnstorming pilot in the year 1923. Hank's mother is the Dorothy of the L. Frank Baum "Oz" tales, although Baum mangled Dorothy's true adventures into a successful children's book. Hank, therefore, is not really too surprised when he files into an emerald-colored cloud, (accidentally produced by a Signal Corps experiment in power transmission), and lands in Quadlingland, Oz. Hank quickly joins forces with Queen Glinda to help her in her fight against the evil witch Erakna, who took over as Queen of the Gillikins when Helwedo, the Witch of the North, died suddenly. As Farmer tells it, Oz is not really as peaceful as Baum would have us believe. Except for "The Wizard of Oz", Dorothy's adventure, the remainder of the Oz books were almost entirely fiction. Even "Wizard" glossed over things and did not tell the truth about all that occurred. Soon, though, trouble on another front emerges. The U.S. Army tries to invade Quadlingland through the gate they have created. Glinda quickly subdues the first force, but she fears, and rightly so, that the Army will keep trying until they kill off everyone in Oz. Hank is thus torn between his loyalty as an American and his love for Glinda. Using his Curtiss JN-4H (Jenny) biplane, Hank rounds up the Scarecrow and the Tin Woodman, bith Kings of their respective territories. Together, the plan the attack against Erakna. Along the way, Hank reasons out some of the fallacies that Baum put in his books, such as the fact that the Tin Woodman couldn't have rusted so fast simply because tin doesn't rust like that! There's lots more which I would probably enjoy even better if I had ever read any of the Oz books. Farmer's Oz, unlike Baum's, has sex, birth, death and crime. Having Oz seem more realistic adds to the enjoyment of the tale. Magic, though it indeed exists, is not omnipotent. Therefore, Hank really can make a difference in the outcome. I enjoyed "Barnstormer" a great deal, and will now probably go out and start buying Baum's books. I feel pretty sure that any Oz fan will be delighted by "Barnstormer", and that neophytes who, like me, have only seen the movie, will be equally enthralled. I highly recommend it. Steve Lionel ------------------------------ *** SPOILER, the following review of Hogan's VOYAGE FROM YESTERYEAR *** *** reveals information you may not want to know before reading the book. *** Posted-date: 25-Aug-1982 To: SF-LOVERS @KIRK Subject: James P. Hogan/VOYAGE FROM YESTERYEAR From: SCHOFIELD AT MERLIN I just finished reading VOYAGE FROM YESTERYEAR (the first Hogan book I've ever read). I found it to be one of the most interesting and enjoyable books I've read in awhile. Hogan manages to integrate a basically hard-sf style with a sharp eye (and pen) for the foolishness of the human condition. The book centers around the first inter-stellar colony from Earth set in (you guessed it!) the Alpha Centauri system. Circa 2020, a ship left Earth bound for Centauri. It originally had been planned as a robot probe but when the people in charge of the project saw how things were going on Earth they though it would be a good idea (and it was) to equip the ship to handle people. Of course, since the ship was already designed and in the initial production stages, the only way to do this was...(any guesses?) ...RIGHT!!! Encode some 'puters with genetic info and sythesize the children when the ship arrived! The children were raised with robot nannies programmed to teach the children only facts and to allow them to devise their own thought-patterns, society, economy etc. Free from all the ingrained prejudices and thought-patterns from Old Earth, they developed a society which was so radically different and so incredibly good that it shakes one's faith in the idiocy of human nature. However, just when you thought that we humans are good for something after all, enter the second generation emmigrants from Earth. World War III has taken place on Earth, and out of the ashes rose the United States of the New Order, along with European and Asiatic power blocs. The U.S. has sent out a generation ship to reassert it's lawful and God-given sovereignty over the wayward heathens of Chiron (the new name of the planet).Paraphrase:"After all, they are human, the Bishop SAYS they have souls, but what kind of people can they be after being raised by robots?" Answer: "INTELLIGENT!!!!" What follows is a refreshing insight into the mores and taboos of society as well as the evolution of society in coming to terms with high technology. The story is made all the more interesting because it comes from an unexpected quarter...the "hard-sf" writer. If this story is indicative of Hogan's style, if so would someone please inform me through the list, I am very anxious to read more from him. Rick Schofield ------------------------------ *** SPOILER, the following review of Niven & Barne DREAM PARK reveals *** *** information you may not want to know before reading the book. *** Date: 14 Aug 82 9:13:33-PST (Sat) From: Tim Shimeall To: sfl at Sri-Csl Subject: DREAM PARK (Spoiler) Via: UCI; 14 Aug 82 19:26-EDT Kindly allow me to take issue with some of the opinions expressed on the book 'DREAM PARK', by Larry Niven and Steven Barnes. I agree, very much with the gentleman who noted that you can tell who is going to be killed by the deapth of description of the characters, except for those who are killed in the final scene. HOWEVER I think this is one of the best DND/Quest books to come out in a LONG time. Its FAR better than Norton's book on Blackhawk. I Definately recommend that those interested in SF/DND go out and buy/borrow/read a copy. The ending is not a terrible suprise. Given the DND/Quest theme, the authors have a reason for each character that they present. Each character serves a role in leading to the ending. Up until the final pages, where all is made clear, the role of Skip, the psychologist, is uncertain. He does NOT contribute anything, until his role as the ultimate villan is exposed. This sticks out like a sore thumb on a reread of the book. Also, I felt that the ending was fairly well foreshadowed. By the way, did anyone notice how subtley Niven and Barnes worked in references to other works of fiction into this book? (Does any get a clue from this knife? Well, Its obsidian. What good is a glass dagger? ) I counted 28 references, but I'm sure a missed a LOT of them. Tim Shimeall Tim.UCI at UDEL-RELAY End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 11-Oct SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 54 *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Oct 1982 2227-PDT From: SFL at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 54 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest 11-Oct-82 Volume 6 : Issue 54 Today's Topics: Destination Moon, violence, Castenada, Cordwainer Bird, Herbert's THE WHITE PLAGUE, Brunner's STAND ON ZANZIBAR, shielding in PODKAYNE, British education, Lem, COURTSHIP RITE, A PERFECT VACUUM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 Sep 1982 20:30:53 EST (Monday) From: Mike Meyer Subject: Destination Moon To: sf-lovers at sri-csl Cc: mwm at OKC-UNIX Destination Moon ran on the babble box here about a week ago, and (after the discussion on sfl) I made sure to catch it. The credits at the begining of the file listed Heinlein as the sciencetific advisor. However, one of the key characters (The ex-military man who was the driving force behind the moon rocket) looked like some of the pictures of Heinlein from that period. The joes who ran the film didn't bother running the trailing credits, which carried the actors names. Does somebody know if that was him? mike ------------------------------ Date: 13 Sep 1982 21:03:05 EST (Monday) From: Mike Meyer Subject: Violence In Our Time To: sf-lovers at sri-csl Cc: mwm at OKC-UNIX On the subject of why movies/sf/video games/etc are so violent, there seem to me to be two (nearly mutually contradictory) explanations: 1: These things are all escapism/entertainment (ESCAPE to something by Ellison?) and as such feature things that people find exciting/entertaining. This implies action, and lots of it; most of this is translated to Violence. 2: People are basically violent. The first of these is the one that most people would like to believe is true. I am fairly certain that this is what applies in my case: I tend to read sf that is either action/adventure (Hard sf, and most of the things run by Analog), or go looking for things that make me think (Ellison and some of the rest of the `new wave'). Anything that is neither of these two (We Who Are About To... & The Lathe of Heaven are good examples: both of them were slow and had obvious solutions) I tend to avoid. So we have one example where the first case applies. As a good counterexample consider the success of Ordinary People. Very little action, and problems that you can run into in real life without suddenly qualifying as a @B(HERO). If everybody who went to movies were escaping, I don't think that movie would have done well at all. This leaves us with people being basically violent. In support of this we have the rising crime rate. We can also note that the good old U. S. of A. has been engaged in armed conflict of some sort or another for something like 200 years during its 206 year history. As counterpoints we have vegetarianism. There also seems to be a growing number of people in my circle of friends who find the thought of consciously doing harm to another person/being sickening. These people are still in the minority, but the number is growing. Conclusions? It seems that both reasons apply. There are people who are there to avoid something obnoxious in the real world (like the real world), and people who enjoy violence for the sake of violence. Hopefully, the second class is in the minority and shrinking, but the evidence doesn't point that way. Video games are another matter entirely. I've never met anybody who played them (as opposed to dropping a quarter now and then for social reasons) who thought of them as anything but a GAME. By definition, a game involves competition. In this case, the competition is you vs. the computer, and these things come across better if there is some object/objects on the screen that you can be seen to competing against, or fighting. There are non-violent video games. Check out Actavision's Barnstorming. In this you are trying to fly a biplane through some set number of barns in as little time as possible. The `violence' in this game happens when you hit something (a windmill, a barn or a goose), and the plane bounces a little and slows down. These things are manifestly to be avoided, so Barnstorming actually encourages non-violence! Sorry 'bout the long non-sf discussion. `And if you hear me sobbing once in a while, it's only because you've killed me, too...' mike ------------------------------ Date: 13 Sep 82 16:11:45-EDT (Mon) From: J C Patilla To: sf-lovers at Sri-Csl cc: jcp.jhu at UDel-Relay Subject: Castenada, Cordwainer Bird Via: jhu; 14 Sep 82 3:52-EDT A couple of issues back there was a flame on Carlos Castenada (sp?), accusing him of being a fantastical fraud. Those interested should see two books edited by Richard deMille, "Castenada's Journey" and "The Don Juan Papers", in which the editor and company do their best to prove Castenada a fraud. I have only recently read some of the don Juan books myself, and having a degree in anthropology, I was amazed to discover that he was passing this stuff off as honest-to-God *ethnography* - he actually got his PhD for "Journey to Ixtlan", submitted under a different title. Re Cordwainer Bird - Ellison goes into his use of this covername in some detail in the forward to a story in a recent paperback edition of "Strange Wine". j c patilla jcp.jhu@udel-relay ------------------------------ Date: 14 September 1982 1611-EDT From: Don Provan at CMU-10A Subject: Carlos Castenada To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL i like the Castenada books and believe in a lot that they say. if i'm so greatly wrong, i'd be interested to hear why. i've never been into halucinogenic drugs, so blasting me for being manipulated by a conniving author is not sufficient. *if* Castenada was manipulating his readers, and *if* he was doing it just to make money and is a real phoney, that *still* isn't an argument against the basic philosophy expressed in the books. as it is, the note in V6 #45 doesn't give any real evidence for any of these three points. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Sep 1982 0123-PDT From: Dolata at SUMEX-AIM Subject: Frank Heberts The White Plague To: sf-lovers at SRI-CSL Nano-review: so-so. The White Plague has an interesting plot idea which is almost developed well. Characters who are almost real. Biochemistry which is almost correct. And an editor who did almost nothing! The book is almost worth buying. The book starts out with an interesting twisting and intertwining of several peoples lives. The style is very involved, and it makes one think and puzzle at bits of the first chapter. However, as the book goes on the style gets simpler and simpler, the intertwining soon restricting itslef to chapters, then pretty much abandoned altogether. The book is flat. Considering that all life is facing possible extinction, very little of that feeling of DESPERATION comes through. Instead, the book has as much End Of The World feeling as 'Travels With Charley'. This book suffers from a problem that seems to be plaguing many SF books these days; either editors who don't edit, or writers who pad. This book weighs in at 400 pages, of which 200 are story and 200 are baggage. A good editor could have chopped the dead wood out and produced a much tighter more 'desparate' story. It is hard to believe that the End Of The World is near when the characters take a leasurely many week tramp through the woods. Do other people think that modern SF&F books are tending to be overlong? If people send to me (dolata@sumex-aim) I'll tally the results and send it into sf-lovers in a week or so... Dan ------------------------------ Date: 13 Sep 1982 2100-PDT From: Mike Peeler Subject: Re: John Brunner (SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #47) To: Allen at YALE cc: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL In-Reply-To: Your message of 24-Aug-82 2101-PDT Todd, I am sure you will get a hundred replies to your remark, "Zanzibar is well known, but never won any awards or great acclaim," so I will be brief: since when have we started considering Hugo Award winners deprived of acclaim? Cheers, Mike ------------------------------ Date: 14 Sep 1982 11:03:45-EDT From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX To: sf-lovers at sri-csl Subject: shielding in Podkayne I seem to recall that the statement was that the ordinary structure of the ship provided the layers of shielding---there were four decks, representing increasingly lower-class accommodations as you went inward, and each deck flooring had to be sufficiently substantial (in order to support herds of people at up to one G) that it incidentally provided the necessary radiation shielding. So your description, while more economical than four layers on the outside, would still require more material than Heinlein describes--- and hence would probably be thoroughly uneconomical since the ship travels in continuous-acceleration "orbits" and changes spin to match the gravity of the next port of call (yes, I know the spin should be gyro-stored, but you're going to have significant inefficiencies in such a system). Speaking of ship spinning, did you notice that they stopped spinning the ship to dock? This strikes me as a bad idea, unless you really want to be able to bring in peers and peons by difference entrances. . . . ------------------------------ Date: 14 Sep 82 15:38:55-EDT (Tue) From: David Axler To: sf-lovers at Sri-Csl Subject: Comments on Vol 6, #s 44-47 Via: UPenn; 14 Sep 82 19:44-EDT 1) British Education (per hjjh@utexas-11) A co-worker of mine who was once an Oxford don pointed out several years back that one of the biggest distinctions between the US and UK educational systems is the expectation that, no matter what one's field might be, one's college education is almost totally focused on one's major -- all the liberal arts courses and the "broadening" that the average American college student is forced into via electives, sub-majors, and similar mechanisms don't exist. Instead, the British student has had his or her breadth supplied at the high school level, where it belongs. 2) "Destination Moon" (per Griffin @ sumex-aim) At the L-5 meetings in April, where Heinlein was a Guest of Honor, the film "Destination Moon" was shown several times to commemorate Heinlein's part in its making, which was not as technical advisor, but rather as writer. One can see many points in the flick where RAH drew almost directly from his own stories, esp. "The Man Who Sold the Moon." 3) Stanislav Lem (re many assorted entries) Overall, I think that Lem has been over-rated, primarily as a result of his critical reception. When was the last time you saw a "standard" sf or fantasy writer given front-page treatment in the NY Times? As several folks have noted, how good Lem seems is very dependent on his translator; however, since he is, I'm told, fairly fluent in English himself, I'm minded to wonder why he doesn't take the time to check out the translations himself. The Continental writer who, to my mind, makes Lem pale in comparison is Italo Calvino. Often, their books deal with similar themes, but Calvino's work (or, at least, his translations) are far more readable. I especially recommend his latest piece of fiction, "If On a Winter's Night A Traveller...", in which the classic them of works within works within works within.... gets a superb treatment. In some ways, Calvino reminds me of Borges, in part because they both have an interest in the occult and/or mystic, but Calvino writes in a manner far less diffuse than Borges. 4) Casteneda & Fantasy (re decvax!utzoo!watmath!watarts!geo) Ever since Casteneda's first book appeared, there has been a good bit of controversy within the anthropological realms as to what his truth level really might be. There have been a number of articles defending his work as good, honest field work, but there have also been many anthropologists who think that his books are pure fiction. They don't mind the fictionalization, but they do resent his claims of academic credentials as a mechanism for selling his books. (By the way, the best spoof of Castenada is to be found on The Firesign Theatre's album "Everything You Know is Wrong," which also takes on UFO cults, the Air Force's plans for alien invasions, and Evel Knievel. It may be out of print, but it's worth finding at your local cutout store.) 5) Violence and the Roadrunner The last three issues of "National Lampoon" have had an excellent series dealing with the notion that the Coyote finally gets sufficiently fed up with his failures that he sues the Acme Products Corp. (suppliers of all the items that never catch the bird) on assorted counts. The legal machinations on both sides ring all too true. Whether you're on the side of the Roadrunner, or that of Wile E., you should look this one up. 6) Courtship Rite (re Walker @CMU-10a) I talked briefly w/Kingsbury at Chicon, and he commented that the serial version of the story was over 20K words shorter than the bookstore version, but that he got to do the trimming, so there was some control over what was lost. He agrees with me that the cover does not accurately depict the scene it was intended to represent, and that the tattooing has no relationship what- soever to that described in the book. In fact, the artist originally didn't want to do tattoos on the bodies at all! Unlike many authors (tho' this may change as time goes on), Kingsbury actively seeks contact w/fans at conventions. He even goes so far as to throw his own open parties! Certainly a far cry from those who hole up in the SFWA suite. . . but such is life. 7) John Brunner (re N.NELSON@SU-lots) John Brunner wrote three novels in the same world-scenario. The third (your article mentions the first two -- Stand on Zanzibar and The Jagged Orbit) was The Sheep Look Up. It didn't get quite the acclaim of the other two, for a number of reasons (all wrong, I dare say). The key factor was that Stand on Zanzibar was, to many sf readers, a bold and daring experiment in writing style. (That, of course, is because few of them recognized that Brunner was, quite intentionally, adapting the style of John dos Passos [q.v., U.S.A.] to science fiction.) I suspect that it was style, rather than quality, which won this book the Hugo. (Note: I'm NOT knocking the book; it's one of my favorites on both style and quality.) When Jagged Orbit appeared about eighteen months later, the newness of what he was doing had worn off, and the fans didn't respond as positively. When The Sheep Look Up (which deals extensively with the problems of pollution and industry in the future Brunner had posited) came out, the style was old hat and interest had waned. (It might even be the case that many fans resented books that demanded a bit of thought during the reading process, but perchance I'm too snide.) One key feature in Stand on Zanzibar was the coming-to-awareness of the giant computer, Shalmanesar (sp?). Curiously, a fairly recent academic book from MIT Press (I don't recall the precise title, but it's something on the order of "The Cybernetic Intelligence in Science Fiction," by Patricia Warringer) which does note later works by Brunner on this theme fails to even consider this aspect of SoZ, focusing instead on Asimov's positronic brains and Three Laws. It's work like this that makes me suspect my fellow academics should be kept away from sf, for their own safety. Well, enough for now . . .time to read the next few issues, which just arrived. Dave ------------------------------ Date: 12 Sep 1982 8:19:25 EDT (Sunday) From: Andrew Malis Subject: A perfect Vacuum To: sf-lovers@sri-csl Cc: malis at BBN-UNIX, ucbvax!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn@Berkeley I have also always wanted to get A Perfect Vacuum, especially after having read excerpts of it in The New Yorker. It is a collection of ridiculously pompous "scholarly" reviews of non-existent books, and the "reviews" that I read in New Yorker were absolutely wonderful. Well, I was on a trip to Europe this summer, and in an English bookstore in Vienna (Shakespeare and Co.), I found a British trade paperback that was a collection of Solaris, The Chain of Chance, and A Perfect Vacuum. Since I didn't previously own any of the three, this was absolutely perfect, and I snapped it right up. If you want to order the book from your local store, the book is a King Penguin, published in Britain by Penguin Books, 625 Madison Ave, New York, NY 10022, and was first printed in 1981. The ISBN number is 0 14 00.5539 8, and the suggested price is 3.95 pounds, or $9.95 Canadian. The translations are by Joanna Kilmartin and Steve Cox for Solaris, Louis Iribarne for The Chain of Chance, and Michael Kandel for A Perfect Vacuum. I don't know if these are the same translators for the American editions or not. If you like imaginary literary criticism, then you'll LOVE Vladimir Nobokov's Pale Fire, which contains the same sort of review of a non-existent epic poem, and is absolutely hilarious, especially if you suffered through the real thing in high school or college. Andy Malis ------------------------------ Date: 12 September 1982 14:42-EDT From: John G. Aspinall Subject: Sequel to Brunner's Zanzibar To: Allen at YALE cc: SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC According to the cover blurb, "The Sheep Look Up" is a sequel to "Stand on Zanzibar". It is not an obvious sequel; it does not contain the same set of characters etc., but it certainly could take place in the same universe, a few years later. Re your comments about "Jagged Orbit" - I have always regarded that as a good but imperfect stab at what he finally covered much better in "Shockwave Rider". I've read most things by Brunner that I could get a hand on - I don't have my collection handy, but those that come to mind include : Stand on Zanzibar - highly recommended The Shockwave Rider - ditto The Sheep Look Up - well worth the read, but not first rank The Jagged Orbit - ditto The Infinitive of Go - a novelty - Brunner discovers hackers' language The Dreaming Earth - read 'em at the laundromat, but don't break a Age of Miracles - date to do so. several others John Aspinall End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 11-Oct SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 55 *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Oct 1982 2227-PDT From: SFL at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 55 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest 11-Oct-82 Volume 6 : Issue 55 Today's Topics: Violence, Lem, Invaders in Bay Area, Jedi, E.E. Smith, Le Guin's THE COMPASS ROSE ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: duntemann.wbst @ PARC-MAXC Date: 12-Sep-82 21:30:49 EDT Subject: Peace Makes Dull Reading To: SFL@SRI-CSL I sympathize with the chap who bemoans the preponderance of violence in SF. I refuse, in fact, to see Bladerunner because of the nauseating descriptions garnered from friends. But consider what SF is: NOT prediction, but entertainment. Every creative writing course I ever took stressed that without conflict, you don't have a story. There are many different kinds of conflict, but the easiest to concoct (and apparently the most attractive, judging from the box office take of such pasture puddings as "Halloween" and "Friday 13") is stick-em-in-the-guts violence. Remove conflict from SF and what you have are travelogs. Clarke has done whole books of such travelogs, written as speculation but wailing for incorporation into works of fiction. In fact, his novel "Imperial Earth" was almost utterly without conflict, and came across pretty much as a travelog of Earth in the year 2350, when all our problems have been oh-so-neatly (and I damned well didn't believe any of it) put to bed. I write regularly, and I publish a few stories a year. I have tried writing "idea stories" which underplay conflict, and I get them bounced an awful lot. Gotta have conflict, sayeth the rejection slips. Sadly, only a few stories come to mind as lacking heavy violent conflict. One obscure one is "world in a Bottle" by Kim Lang, and no, I don't even remember where I read it. Also, "Shortstack" by (I think) Henry Kuttner. It's rough to do a whole novel without violence. Maybe "The Gods Themselves" by Asimov. I may think of others and put them forth. But honestly, peace makes for dull reading. If handled well, violence in fiction can be a warning. If handled badly (as in Bladerunner) it's nothing more than playing to our adrenals for bux. Nytall, Jeff Duntemann ------------------------------ Date: 13 Sep 1982 11:36:19-EDT From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX To: spac.gatech at udel-relay Subject: violence in SF Cc: sf-lovers at sri-csl Let's leave aside for the moment the obvious answer that \some/ sort of conflict is necessary to motivate the tale---otherwise you end up with what Harlan Ellison sneeringly calls "pink-and-white bunny rabbit stories". First, note that you have grouped together a number of people with very different slants; Haldeman concludes that war in space is likely because we won't have adequately put down the flippos who love to make war here on Earth (consider the first officer and non-com in THE FOREVER WAR, both of whom took cuts in rank to get into action). Second, SF comes out of a violent tradition that is only gradually being shaken; just as horse opera needs gunfights, space opera needs space battles (Consider Doc Smith, "worldwrecker" Hamilton, and others of their period). Note that various authors have worked against this; half or more of the heroes of the Foundation trilogy are those who use trickery of one sort or another to \\prevent// a conflict (the downfall of Bel Riose, the final defeat of the Mule). In post-World War II SF I'd say the majority of stories don't deal directly with armed conflict. You mention Retief, who is certainly violent on a small scale and who in at least one story brings in plans that tip the balance in an invasion of a planet; I would counter with Flandry, who has promoted some wars but has generally worked to delay the final battle by using whatever underhanded means he has available (and Flandry is hardly an unmitigated hero; Anderson is not being coy when F's archenemy tells him they two are much alike). Considering more recent times, I don't think any of Le Guin's heroes are military people; some of them muddle because they are thrust into political conflicts but they are always working for a peaceful solution. And for a capper look at this year's Hugo winner, DOWNBELOW STATION: the people who come out looking best are those who break out of the imperium vs. colonies struggle and make themselves an independent entity. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Sep 1982 22:00:45 EDT (Saturday) From: Winston Edmond Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #45 In-Reply-to: Your message of Sunday, August 22, 1982 8:02AM To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL (In the air is the smell of gasoline; you hear a match striking...) Why violence? Because violence isn't the point, it's simply the easiest way to evoke certain emotions. Two things: First, change is often viewed as disruptive, as upsetting the existing order of things. Significant changes often cause major disruptions. Examples are changes in philosophy of government by those operating the government; changes in manufacturing technology that may leave many jobless while creating new kinds of jobs for others; a sudden, successful military invasion of a neighboring country. Presenting the disruption as visible violence makes the abstract feeling of change immediate and discernible to all. The magnitude of the violence is an indication of the magnitude of change being wrought. Second, people are often confused by what appears to them to be a bewildering array of options, choices, and consequences. Yet most people have experienced times when their objective was sufficiently clear and their means of achieving it sufficiently within their reach that all the confusion could be swept aside and consumed in positive, directed action. The central figures are often portrayed as people who have arrived at such a moment in their lives. The violence is their sweeping aside all obstacles, no matter how fearsome, no matter how formidable to achieve their objectives. In many cases, the objectives are presented as the "right" choices, perhaps even the "moral" choice. In short, violence is an oversimplification of the world which helps to establish right and wrong (or "us" and "them") and which tries to say that problems can be solved. Negotiators remind an audience that life is complicated and that problems usually have many sides, conflicting goals, and that solution is difficult at best if you fundamentally grant the "other side" an equal standing. What's the most effective way to "solve" the "Palestinian problem"? Wipe out the people who are causing the problem and then there will be no more problem. Easy, huh? Negotiations could go on forever. If a book or a movie is to keep the reader's interest, it can't drag on forever. The successful books about negotiators are those about ones who, through insight or trickery, cut through all obstacles to peace in a rapid, decisive manner. Violence works because there are a lot of people who don't want to have to deal with the world in all its complication. The problem is that when books or movies resort to violence, they can evade teaching us how to deal more effectively with the world around us. And, in the end, if you haven't learned how to handle complexity, it won't surprise anyone that you resort to violence. (The fire dies down... End flame.) ------------------------------ Date: 12 Sep 1982 0030-EDT From: Joseph A. Frisbie Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #46 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL In-Reply-To: Your message of 11-Sep-82 2251-EDT Lem's A Perfect Vacuum, has been in print for at least 5 years (hardcover at least). I took it out of the library then, and haven't see it around since. I found it to be a bit random, but I guess if you're a great fan you'd like it. Joe ------------------------------ Date: 11 Sep 1982 1801-PDT From: Jim McGrath (SF-LOVERS Moderator) Subject: Invaders To: sfl at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS-REQUEST at MIT-AI Are showing on channel 36 at 5:00pm on Saturdays in the Bay area. Jim ------------------------------ Date: 29 Aug 1982 1601-CDT From: Greg Elder Subject: Revenge of the Jedi To: sf-lovers at MIT-AI The October issue of Epic Illustrated shows a couple of production paintings from RotJ. The magazine also states that the movie is scheduled to be released on Friday, 27 May 83. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Aug 1982 1725-EDT From: YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI Subject: [David Dyer-Bennet : SF Lovers submission] - - - - - - - Begin message from: David Dyer-Bennet Date: 24 August 1982 21:48-EDT (Tuesday) From: David Dyer-Bennet Subject: SF Lovers submission To: young at market ( Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #40 ) (Tim Shimeall ) Spacehounds of IPC has no apparent connection to other works. The tone is closer to Skylark than to the Lensman universe, but there is no evidence of any connection. The Family D'Alembert series is published by Pyramid as by E.E. "Doc" Smith with Stephen Goldin. I have only 4 volumes of it; my last, Getaway World, carries a 1977 copyright date. I have seen them in stores much more recently than that, in fact within the last year. ------------------------------ *** SPOILER, the following message reveals information about Le Guin's *** *** THE COMPASS ROSE. Date: 12 Sep 82 2:52-PDT From: mclure at SRI-UNIX To: sf-lovers at Sri-Csl Subject: Le Guin book review n559 0219 12 Sep 82 BC-ROSE-09-12 A BOOK REVIEW By Scott Sanders (c) 1982 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service) THE COMPASS ROSE: Short Stories. By Ursula K. Le Guin. Harper & Row. $14.95. (Scott Sanders, an essayist and novelist, teaches at Indiana University.) Just as we read the news, so we should read the olds - we should study accounts of what is perennial in human experience. The richest accounts I know are kept in books, especially books of fiction. Although novelists are sometimes confused on this point (taking the word ''novel'' too literally and regarding themselves as journalists), the greatest works of fiction have rarely chronicled the day-to-day, but have reported instead on those matters of nature and character and thought that change slowly, if at all, beneath the shimmer of current events. To paraphrase poet William Carlos Williams, ''It is difficult to get the news from stories, yet men and women die miserably avery day for lack of what is found there.'' For 20 years now, in more than a dozen novels and several books of tales, Ursula K. Le Guin has been luring us down through the changing surface of the everyday, into the durable landscapes of dream and fairy tale and myth. Because those landscapes are often projected onto alien planets, which her characters sometimes reach by means of spaceships, publishers have seen fit to call much of her work science fiction. But her work has more in common with the metaphysical fables of Kafka and Borges than with the technological projections of Asimov and Heinlein. Le Guin draws many of her dominant images, as well as her habit of vigorous speculation, from science. But her concerns and her narrative patterns are much older than science, as old as the Bible and the ''Odyssey.'' The 20 recent stories gathered in ''The Compass Rose'' display in brilliant variety her unsettling fusion of science and myth, modern surfaces and ancient depths. In ''The Water Is Wide,'' for example, a physicist is driven to suicide by his knowledge concerning the world's nuclear arsenals. The technology that triggers his anguish is a recent one, but the anguish itself is as old as conscience. In a dialogue called ''Intracom,'' a spaceship becomes the metaphor for that earliest of traveling vessels, the human body, in this case a female one, which gestates that primordial alien, a fetus. Another story unfolds on a distant planet, where a second-generation painter learns to see his alien environment with a new eye for its unearthly beauties. Beneath the contemporary garb of space-travel, his story is that of all immigrants, who must slowly learn to grasp with their minds the new land which they so quickly occupy with their bodies. ''The Pathways of Desire'' is also set on another planet, this one a garden paradise. The anthropologists who study the place conclude that it is an adolescent boy's dreamscape, and they in turn, re-enacting a Hindu myth, become the dreamers of their own story. Le Guin strips away layer after layer, until the scientists are revealed to be the avatars of gods. This interplay between ancient and modern is nowhere more chillingly displayed than in ''The New Atlantis.'' As a more corrupt and oppressive version of our own world sinks into the ocean, a fresh world arises from the depths. The two are bound together like the rising and falling ends of a teeter-totter, and the prose styles that Le Guin uses to describe the dying and the nascent world answer one another like antiphonal voices in music. There is talk in the story of continental drift and plate tectonics; but the deeper theme is the power of human yearning to conjure up a better, nobler dwelling-place in the midst of suffering. Occasionally her characters even seek out bleak landscapes and undergo suffering, as if the outward emptiness called forth an inward plenitude. The women in ''Sur'' who journey to the South Pole are drawn by the ''white place on the map, that void.'' They conduct their expedition in the most scientific manner; but the compulsion that drives them and the discoveries they make have nothing to do with reason, and very little to do with the 20th century. Not all the stories in ''The Compass Rose'' are thus alloyed of science and myth. Several of them record the derailments of the heart brought on by the death of a parent or spouse. In the second half of ''Two Delays on the Northern Line,'' for instance, a man whose life has been shattered by the death of his wife inherits a house in another city, and that new home restores to him a sense of purpose. Several of them show us the world as it might be observed through the eyes of beasts. Thus we see a maze and a psychologist from the rat's point of view. We watch from inside a she-wolf as her mate, in the dark of the moon, changes from wolf into that most hated of all brutes, a man. But above all, these stories suggest that the human capacity for imagining contrary realities - and especially that capacity for public dreaming we call art - endures, whatever else may shift about in the winds of technology. In one of the most powerful stories, a man who has been sent to the madhouse because of his unorthodox political beliefs proves his sanity by imagining a perfect rose. The imagined flower is his song, his poem, his painting, his gesture of opposition and affirmation. Electrical treatments will eventually destroy him. But in the meantime the psychiatrist who is monitoring his thoughts is so enlightened by the rose that she takes up the condemmed man's politics. And so imagination cuts through even the latest model traps. All of these tales move - as Le Guin has written elsewhere that good fiction should move - in ''the direction of the great myths and legends, which is always toward an intensification of the mystery of the real.'' Her deepest subject is that of a quest, the tale of a man or woman who has been cast into a baffling world among strangers and must find there a true identity, a correct path, a mate or comrade, a way home. END nyt-09-12-82 0509edt ********** n559 0219 12 Sep 82 BC-ROSE-09-12 A BOOK REVIEW By Scott Sanders (c) 1982 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service) THE COMPASS ROSE: Short Stories. By Ursula K. Le Guin. Harper & Row. $14.95. (Scott Sanders, an essayist and novelist, teaches at Indiana University.) Just as we read the news, so we should read the olds - we should study accounts of what is perennial in human experience. The richest accounts I know are kept in books, especially books of fiction. Although novelists are sometimes confused on this point (taking the word ''novel'' too literally and regarding themselves as journalists), the greatest works of fiction have rarely chronicled the day-to-day, but have reported instead on those matters of nature and character and thought that change slowly, if at all, beneath the shimmer of current events. To paraphrase poet William Carlos Williams, ''It is difficult to get the news from stories, yet men and women die miserably avery day for lack of what is found there.'' For 20 years now, in more than a dozen novels and several books of tales, Ursula K. Le Guin has been luring us down through the changing surface of the everyday, into the durable landscapes of dream and fairy tale and myth. Because those landscapes are often projected onto alien planets, which her characters sometimes reach by means of spaceships, publishers have seen fit to call much of her work science fiction. But her work has more in common with the metaphysical fables of Kafka and Borges than with the technological projections of Asimov and Heinlein. Le Guin draws many of her dominant images, as well as her habit of vigorous speculation, from science. But her concerns and her narrative patterns are much older than science, as old as the Bible and the ''Odyssey.'' The 20 recent stories gathered in ''The Compass Rose'' display in brilliant variety her unsettling fusion of science and myth, modern surfaces and ancient depths. In ''The Water Is Wide,'' for example, a physicist is driven to suicide by his knowledge concerning the world's nuclear arsenals. The technology that triggers his anguish is a recent one, but the anguish itself is as old as conscience. In a dialogue called ''Intracom,'' a spaceship becomes the metaphor for that earliest of traveling vessels, the human body, in this case a female one, which gestates that primordial alien, a fetus. Another story unfolds on a distant planet, where a second-generation painter learns to see his alien environment with a new eye for its unearthly beauties. Beneath the contemporary garb of space-travel, his story is that of all immigrants, who must slowly learn to grasp with their minds the new land which they so quickly occupy with their bodies. ''The Pathways of Desire'' is also set on another planet, this one a garden paradise. The anthropologists who study the place conclude that it is an adolescent boy's dreamscape, and they in turn, re-enacting a Hindu myth, become the dreamers of their own story. Le Guin strips away layer after layer, until the scientists are revealed to be the avatars of gods. This interplay between ancient and modern is nowhere more chillingly displayed than in ''The New Atlantis.'' As a more corrupt and oppressive version of our own world sinks into the ocean, a fresh world arises from the depths. The two are bound together like the rising and falling ends of a teeter-totter, and the prose styles that Le Guin uses to describe the dying and the nascent world answer one another like antiphonal voices in music. There is talk in the story of continental drift and plate tectonics; but the deeper theme is the power of human yearning to conjure up a better, nobler dwelling-place in the midst of suffering. Occasionally her characters even seek out bleak landscapes and undergo suffering, as if the outward emptiness called forth an inward plenitude. The women in ''Sur'' who journey to the South Pole are drawn by the ''white place on the map, that void.'' They conduct their expedition in the most scientific manner; but the compulsion that drives them and the discoveries they make have nothing to do with reason, and very little to do with the 20th century. Not all the stories in ''The Compass Rose'' are thus alloyed of science and myth. Several of them record the derailments of the heart brought on by the death of a parent or spouse. In the second half of ''Two Delays on the Northern Line,'' for instance, a man whose life has been shattered by the death of his wife inherits a house in another city, and that new home restores to him a sense of purpose. Several of them show us the world as it might be observed through the eyes of beasts. Thus we see a maze and a psychologist from the rat's point of view. We watch from inside a she-wolf as her mate, in the dark of the moon, changes from wolf into that most hated of all brutes, a man. But above all, these stories suggest that the human capacity for imagining contrary realities - and especially that capacity for public dreaming we call art - endures, whatever else may shift about in the winds of technology. In one of the most powerful stories, a man who has been sent to the madhouse because of his unorthodox political beliefs proves his sanity by imagining a perfect rose. The imagined flower is his song, his poem, his painting, his gesture of opposition and affirmation. Electrical treatments will eventually destroy him. But in the meantime the psychiatrist who is monitoring his thoughts is so enlightened by the rose that she takes up the condemmed man's politics. And so imagination cuts through even the latest model traps. All of these tales move - as Le Guin has written elsewhere that good fiction should move - in ''the direction of the great myths and legends, which is always toward an intensification of the mystery of the real.'' Her deepest subject is that of a quest, the tale of a man or woman who has been cast into a baffling world among strangers and must find there a true identity, a correct path, a mate or comrade, a way home. END nyt-09-12-82 0509edt ********** End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 11-Oct SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 56 *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Oct 1982 2227-PDT From: SFL at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 56 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest 11-Oct-82 Volume 6 : Issue 56 Today's Topics: E.E. Smith, HHGttG, Lem, "True Names", Road Warrior, aspiring authors ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 26 Aug 1982 1725-EDT From: YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI Subject: [DD-B : SF Lovers submission] - - - - - - - Begin message from: DD-B Date: 24 Aug 1982 2356-EDT From: DD-B To: YOUNG at MARKET Reply-to: DYER-BENNET at KL2137 DTN: 231-4076 Mailstop: MRO1-2/L14 Subject: SF Lovers submission Message-ID: <"MS10(2066)+GLXLIB1(1056)" 11850524677.46.253.7808 at KL2137> More on Doc Smith's Family D'Alembert series: Having checked my book shelves in better light, I see that I have 6 in the series. The first 4 are from Pyramid, as I reported earlier. The fifth is from HBJ, and the sixth is from Berkeley. The copyright on the fifth is 1980. The Best of E. E. "Doc" Smith (HBJ paper, 1979, copyright 1975) contains a story called "The Imperial Stars", which is the first part of the book Imperial Stars. No publication history is given in either place (curse Pyramid and HBJ), but one of the forwards of Best Of dates the piece in 1964. ... Ah ha! The bibliography in The Universes of E. E. Smith (Ron Ellik and Bill Evans; Advent, 1968) credits that to Worlds of IF, May 1964. Then, of course, there is the Lord Tedric series, and Masters of Space.... ------------------------------ Date: 30 Aug 1982 1139-PDT From: KRIEGER Subject: More Lem To: sf-lovers at SRI-CSL Well, some people must think I have a one-track mind, but since some others seem this way to me, I don't feel so bad. I have just finished a recent Lem acquisition which has been out since the early seventies. It is translated from German translated from Polish, but it seems to have survived pretty well. The book is THE INVINCIBLE; it could be classified in the genre of "realistic SF," which to some people is a contradiction in terms. Anyway, the story concerns the cruiser INVINCIBLE as it touches down on planet REGIS III to investigate the disappearance of the cruiser CONDOR several years earlier. The CONDOR is found is somewhat battered condition, and the crew members that are found are dead. The crew of the INVINCIBLE is at a loss to explain how this could have happened, and in the process of investigation, they uncover mysterious clues about insect-like "flies." Strong magnetic fields also seem to play an important part in the mystery, as does the inexplicable circumstance of several people having part or all of their memory erased. I won't give away further details of the story for those who might be interested in reading it; I thought it was very good, myself. Once again, Lem has involved his interest in artificial intelligence in his writing, which makes for a novel idea and interesting reading. Another theme which gets introduced later in the book is the purpose and morality (maybe there's a better word) of man's trying to colonize and conquer things which may be beyond both his mental and physical reach. This book is good reading for people who enjoy a mystery that is solved slowly. It deals quite a bit with the thoughts of a few of the characters, and it's quite possible some people might find it boring for lack of action, since it has few intense battles or whatever some people need to keep their interest. It is quite like SOLARIS in that it involves the psychology of men in space who almost seem to wage war with the planet they land on, somehow knowing deep down that they can't win. This is NOT a lighthearted book, and readers familiar with Lem's playfulness in works such as the CYBERIAD and MORTAL ENGINES will find none of that here. THE INVINCIBLE is similar in form to some of Lem's TALES OF PIRX THE PILOT; thus, people who have found those boring will probably find this equally entertaining. For people interested in seeing a different side of Lem, THE INVINCIBLE is a good place to look. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Aug 1982 1541-PDT From: Tom Wadlow Subject: Vol III of HHGttG To: sf-lovers at MIT-AI Copies of the British paperback edition of Douglas Adams' "Life, The Universe, and Everything" (the third volume of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy), are available at the Green Apple bookstore on Clement St. in San Francisco. Be warned: the imported edition is $4.50!!! But if you're desperate (I certainly did not feel *that* desperate) ------------------------------ Date: 1 Sep 1982 1625-EDT From: LEWIN at CMU-20C Subject: Here's the plot...(t.v.) To: sfl at SRI-CSL I'm trying to remember the name of an old t.v. science fiction series from the '50s or possibly very early '60s. The hero was a Commander Buzz (?) Correy, who has a faster-than-light spaceship which doubled as a time machine. Among the adventures I remember were plots involving intelligent crystalline life-forms, visiting Salem (Mass.) during the witchcraft trials, and a visit to contemporary (ie-1950s) America to halt a bomb test. Correy's companions included the standard kid, girl, goofy sidekick and dithering scientist, but the plots and science fiction ideas were generally superior. ------------------------------ Date: 2 September 1982 2224-EDT (Thursday) From: Hans Moravec at CMU-10A (R110HM60) To: sf-lovers at sri-csl, human-nets at rutgers Subject: True Names, good deeds As most of you know, the novelette, "True Names" by Vernor Vinge is the best (and almost the only) presentation a very modern (and very Human-Netty) view of the near future - the period just before machines reach and exceed human intelligence, and the the scene becomes incomprehensible to us mere mortals - a vision missed entirely by pre-computer-age writers, but which seems rapidly to be coming to pass. As many of you also know, published copies of "True Names" are very difficult to come by. Vernor Vinge holds the copyright, but the right to publish is currently in the hands of Dell books. Dell went out of the science fiction business last year, and is no longer marketing Binary Star #5, in which "True Names" appears, but is hedgeing its bets by hoarding a few thousand warehoused copies. As long as any remain Dell is technically still publishing the book, and retains the rights. To maintain this status, they are legally required to honor mail requests for the book. When they run out Vinge can re-sell and "True Names" can get the distribution it deserves. Thus there is an opportunity to do youself, Vinge, SF and Human-Nets freaks, the wider community, and even Dell, a lot of good. Quoting from the book-back order form: Dell Books P.O. Box 1000 Pinebrook, N.J. 075058 Please send me ( ) copies of "Binary Star #5" containing "Nightflyers" by George R.R. Martin and "True Names" by Vernor Vinge. I am enclosing $__________ ($2.50 per copy plus $0.75 per copy for postage and handling). Send check or money order - no cash or C.O.D.'s. Please allow up to 8 weeks for shipment. Name____________ Address_______________ City__________ Zip ________ No, I am not an agent for any of the parties involved - just a do-gooder! ------------------------------ Date: 3 Sep 1982 1226-EDT From: LEWIN at CMU-20C Subject: "Road Warrior" and indirection --Mild *SPOILER* To: sf-lovers at SRI-CSL "Road Warrior" confirms a theory that I've held for years that a good sf movie does not need special effects to be effective. Without going into too much detail, "Road Warrior" creates a savage future vividly, as does "Bladerunner". Since RW is set after the collapse of civilization, no high-tech effects are needed. While violent, RW's violence is more suggested than seen. In the prologue, you "see" Max's wife and child run over by motorcyclists. Actually, you see them being chased, then children's shoes falling to the road. "This indirection resembles that in "M" when child-murderer Peter Lorre's next act is symbolized by his victim's balloon bobbing upward, trapped under telephone wires. Another successful sf film with no special gadgetry is Jean-Luc Godard's "Alphaville", in which his hero travels between galaxies in an automobile driving along a causeway, yet there was still a definite sf feel. ------------------------------ Date: 7 Sep 1982 1412-EDT From: LEWIN at CMU-20C Subject: Forwarding previous messages for sf-lovers To: sf-lovers-request at SRI-CSL (1) "Road Warrior" confirms a theory that I've held for years that a good sf movie does not need special effects to be effective. Without going into too much detail, "Road Warrior" creates a savage future vividly, as does "Bladerunner". Since RW is set after the collapse of civilization, no high-tech effects are needed. While violent, RW's violence is more suggested than seen. In the prologue, you "see" Max's wife and child run over by motorcyclists. Actually, you see them being chased, then children's shoes falling to the road. "This indirection resembles that in "M" when child-murderer Peter Lorre's next act is symbolized by his victim's balloon bobbing upward, trapped under telephone wires. Another successful sf film with no special gadgetry is Jean-Luc Godard's "Alphaville", in which his hero travels between galaxies in an automobile driving along a causeway, yet there was still a definite sf feel. (2) I'm trying to remember the name of an old t.v. science fiction series from the '50s or possibly very early '60s. The hero was a Commander Buzz (?) Correy, who has a faster-than-light spaceship which doubled as a time machine. Among the adventures I remember were plots involving intelligent crystalline life-forms, visiting Salem (Mass.) during the witchcraft trials, and a visit to contemporary (ie-1950s) America to halt a bomb test. Correy's companions included the standard kid, girl, goofy sidekick and dithering scientist, but the plots and science fiction ideas were generally superior. ------------------------------ Date: 7 Sep 1982 1659-EDT From: LEWIS at NLM-MCS (Bil Lewis) Subject: SF Writers? To: sf-lovers at SRI-CSL cc: LEWIS at NLM-MCS Outside of reading a fair amount of SF (as many of my friends do), I occasionally WRITE the stuff, and every now and then (rarely) it gets published. I have good reason to believe that I am not alone in this (net-people being rather creative individuals in general), and wonder if there are others around who would enjoy sharing, criticizing, others' work. To a large degree I would just like to be part of a group of like-minded writers (and "soon-to-be writers") with whom I could argue. But there is more: o There is alot of total BS coming out about machines (always has been) by people who've never written a single line of LISP. Why should WE let an amorphous "them" write about OUR machines, lives, eccentricities? WE can certainly do better than that! o Remember all this talk about how "someday" people will not go down to the bookstore, but simply scan new titles on-line and select whatever is of interest to print on their friendly LSR? By my figuring we can do that right now. I mean hell, we're the future aren't we? Let's start acting like it! Thus my suggestion: People who are interested in forming such a group MSG me. That includes folks who have written, who are planning to, and any voyeurs who just like to read. Depending upon the number I'll contact Jim or somebody & see what kind of a mailing list we can/should create. I've got a couple of things on-line right now, I'm sure others do. We can exchange files, ideas, &c. right off the bat. What say? Reply to: LEWIS@NLM-MCS -Bil ------------------------------ Date: 7 Sep 1982 1701-PDT From: Alan R. Katz Subject: Now availible... To: sf-lovers at SRI-CSL cc: katz at USC-ISIF Find out how to fly!!! Find out why Earth is shunned by most other galactic races!!!! Find out more about the question to which 42 is the answer!!!! Yes!, its finally here, "Life, the Universe, and Everything" is out in paperback, the third volume of the HGttG series. It is quite funny. Alan End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 11-Oct SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 57 *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Oct 1982 2227-PDT From: SFL at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 57 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest 11-Oct-82 Volume 6 : Issue 57 Today's Topics: Piers Anthony, comments on SU-LOTS messages, Carter's WIZARD OF ZAO, Lem, next Star Trek movie (and possible spoilers) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 September 1982 14:52 mst From: RMann.HDSA Subject: Piers Anthony oversight Reply-to: RMann.HDSA%PCO-Multics at MIT-Multics No mention of Piers Anthony in any of your lists of SF authors ? I find it difficult to believe that anyone who has read Mr. Anthony could not help but rate him with Ursula LeGuin, Robert Silverberg, Ray Bradbury (BTW Martian Chronicles deserves an A+) and other SF greats. Mr. Anthony is a master story teller who is able to charm the reader with his wit, intelligence, and incredible(but not impossible) imagination into staying up way past his bedtime reading "just one more page". For example, in "Viscous Circle" we are introduced to a a civilization of Bands living in the boonies of the universe. Now, the Bands are metallic toruses (tori??) that communicate by refracting light through the center of the torus and modulating it with information. They are incapable of war and have no concept of property. They do not die, instead they voluntarily disband and have their auras join the viscous circle. Intruding on this blissful and peaceful existence are monsters that are bony creatures covered with fat and water which leave refuse wherever they go called Solarians. The story involves the means by which this anarchic and peaceful Band civilization overcomes the invasion by the monsters. This book is a part of the Cluster series which includes "Thousandstar", "Cluster" and others. Also recommended are:"A Spell for Chameleon", "Source of Magic", "Castle Roogna", "Centaur Aisle", "Split Infinity". ------------------------------ Date: 15 Sep 1982 09:22:32-EDT From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX To: sf-lovers at mit-ai Subject: su-lots comments I suppose we had to have someone quoting Rottensteiner here at some point. (It would be even more amusing to read what Farmer has to say about this spirited exegesis.) Rottensteiner's problem is that he usually talks about his opinions on what he's read, rather than addressing what he's read directly; his opinions seem to be shaped by the same forces that made Hawthorne, Poe, and Lovecraft the favorite American writers in Europe. I wouldn't go so far as to call him a toadying lickspittle, but he is a [socialist] who reserves his highest praise for [behind the Iron Curtain] authors, such as Lem, whose criticisms of the various regimes are most muffled, while being routinely abusive of the more sardonic authors such as Mrozek. I dug through as much of his badly-illustrated book about SF as I could stand; it's a great piece if you want to learn how to trash books but don't expect to get much insight into SF from it. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Sep 1982 18:23 EDT From: Heiny.Henr at PARC-MAXC Subject: Wiz. of Zao?? (P.PARDNER at SU-LOTS) To: SF-LOVERS@SRI-CSL cc: Heiny.Henr Yes "The Wizard of Zao" is the correct title. It's by Lin Carter, published by DAW books. I don't know if there are any more in the series out, planned, or whatever. If you find out, I would like to know, too. Chris ------------------------------ Date: 15 Sep 82 15:54:49-EDT (Wed) From: Steve Platt To: sf-lovers at Sri-Csl Subject: Wizard of Zao ...another book by Lin Carter, the one-plot author. The book is definitely one of a proposed series, as you state, involving one story on each planet in a solar system. To my knowledge, none of the other books in the series have been written. (Wizard was printed by DAW; I doubt it is still in print; Carter's stuff tends to stay available for around a year before fading away to used bookstores.) I have found Carter amazing in how far one author can stretch a single half-baked S&S plot -- at last count, he has written of the same book (let's see, a half-dozen Thongor, 5 Green Stars, around 5 World's End, a series I don't remember well, around a dozen assorted "hidden city in the valley" books, 8 Jandar's....)... If you want a quick plot synopsis of any and/or all, just string together Hero finds princess again and loses her Hero gets entrapped in some mortal danger as often as you wish, or until boredom. (Not that I should knock it too badly; if you are in the mood for a real pulp trash S&S book, he can't be beat...) -steve ------------------------------ Date: 15 Sep 1982 21:34:38 EDT (Wednesday) From: John Redford Subject: Lem's "A Perfect Vacuum" To: sf-lovers at sri-csl Cc: vlsi at dec-marlboro A few weeks ago someone asked about Stanislaw Lem's "A Perfect Vacuum". I too looked long and hard for it until I found it in the MITSFS's library. It came out in hardback in 1979. Call me a fan; I've been tempted to order it from the publisher (Harcourt Brace Jovanovitch, 757 Third Avenue NY,NY 10017). The book is a collection of reviews of imaginary books. It starts, of course, with a quite unflattering review of itself. And, as is also natural, most of the books are about reality distortion. In "Gruppenfuhrer Louis XIV" a fleeing Nazi general sets up his own version of the French court in the hinterland of Argentina; in "Being Inc." the mega-corporations discover the ultimate in consumer satisfactions: arranging the circum- stances of the customer's life to make him the hero or villain of his own personally tailored drama. The FTC, however, prevents the companies from merging, so they must compete with one another when their client's demands conflict. By the time of the book's action, they secretly arrange every event in the United States. Some of the reviews are philosophical parodies, Eg. "Kultur als Fehler" (Civilization as Mistake), where a stolid German proposes that culture arises when sufficient misunderstandings about the world accumulate to form a closed system of belief. The best two pieces, though, are the last, "Non Serviam", and "The New Cosmogony". "Non Serviam" was reprinted in Hofstadter and Dennett's book "The Mind's I". It is supposed to be a paper by a researcher into "personetics", the science of creating artificial personalities inside worlds inside the computer. The researcher has absolute power over his creations; he can bring them into existence, destroy them, and change their world at will. He is to these creatures as God would be to us. His main interest in them, therefore, is having them argue theology. Most of the paper is a debate among the personoids on what should be their proper attitude towards their creator. Their conclusion: "we shall not serve". "The New Cosmogony" is the acceptance speech of a Nobel prize winner in physics. He describes his remarkable theory about the source of physical laws. The universe is more than ten billion years old. Several generations of stars have come and gone. Billions of years have elapsed since the first civilizations could have arisen, so the question becomes, where are they? Why don't we see their names spelled out with galaxies for pixels? His answer is, they are there, in fact they are everywhere, and the structure of physical law is their handiwork. Laws did not arise out of the inherent structure of the universe; they are rules established by competing primordial civilizations. All the players are operating under game theory, so they adopt certain conventions to prevent catastrophic upsets. Thus, physical laws are homogeneous throughout the universe because all the players pick the same, optimal strategy. There is no travel through time because that would give an unfair advantage, and for the same reason information cannot travel faster than light. Relics of past conflicts can be seen in quasars and in the microwave background radiation. We haven't been visited by a dozen space-faring races because the big boys suppress young cultures that get too uppity. And the clincher is that the "psychzoics" (how the hell does that get translated from Polish?) have not yet finished with physics. There are subtle little asymmetries still to be worked out. For instance, left and right are indistinguishable except in the beta decay of a certain kind of muon. If we can see these inconsistencies being smoothed out we can tell that the psychozoics are still at work. Whoo-ee. Eat your heart out, Niven. John Redford ------------------------------ *** SPOILER, the following messages reveal plot details of the next Star *** *** Trek movie. You may not wish to read further *** Date: 15 Sep 82 16:22:07-EDT (Wed) From: Gene Spafford To: sf-lovers at Mit-Ai Subject: Next Trek The following is a collection of messages that were entered into a hobbyist-type bulletin board service. I thought these might be of interest and/or amusement to the readers of this digest. The discussion on that BBS stopped about 2 weeks ago so I guess this is the end of the matter there. I have deleted a few extraneous comments and the like; any changes I made to the entries have been indicated by a comment in square brackets. Enjoy. # 346 From : PHIL To : TREKKERS Subject : THE PLOT OF THE NEXT ST MOVIE Date : Mon. 08/09/82 21:13 ******* S P O I L E R W A R N I N G ******* This is the plot of the next Star Trek movie, as pieced together by yours truely. Those who want to be suprised should ^c this message. Ok. Remember, towards the end of ST:TWOK (The Wrath of Kahn), just before Spock goes down to the engineering deck to fix the warp drive, he stops at McCoy, and does a little touching with his fingers, and says, "Remember..." ??? Well, bearing in mind that the average human uses 10%-15% of his brain capacity (In McCoy's case 4%-6%), there's lots of room left over. What Spock did was to take a "memory dump" (sorry) and make a backup of his mind into the spare space of McCoy's brain. (We have precidence for this. Remember the episode with Sargon, the intelligence in the white sphere? In that one, Spock's mind was transferred into the sphere, then into Nurse Chapel's brain, where she carried it around until they got Spock's body back.) Now, Spock's body has been dropped onto the surface of the planet that was created by the Genesis effect. It would be reasonable to expect that the body would be revived by the reminants of the effect, but since the body has been dead for so long, the brain will be blank. Also, since we would now have a new, revived Spock, here's a perfect chance to get Leonard Nemoy out, and replace him with somebody younger. I'm sure that you can see the possibility here. For some reason, the Enterprise goes back to the planet, they find Spock, and the memory gets restored! Viola! now, this wouldn't be much of a story by itself, so here's some twists. Remember, Mister Savvik is a Vulcan/Romulan half-breed. (I've got an idea how that happened, too.) Would it be beyond the reach of possibility that she will fall in love with the new, improved Spock? I suspect that it might be possible to see the Romulans discover the new planet, and pick up Spock. Then the enterprise goes after them, with Mr. Savvik (I love that "Mister") leading the way. Anybody got any more ideas? ...phil # 349 From : GENE SPAFFORD To : PHIL REED Subject : TREK Date : Mon. 08/09/82 23:34 Pick up a copy of the book "..Kahn..." (etc.) There is a lot of background in there that wasn't in the movie, including the origins of Saavik. By the way, half Romulan, half Vulcan types are very sensitive about the fact...if they live. Read the book. As to your speculations....we have thought about all of what you mentioned, but figured that they probably won't try something in that vein since the first movie got into trouble by getting a little too far-fetched. However, the memory dump idea is a real neat idea. We must wait and see. I, for one, think that Spock is actually the one other hope of the Jedi, and they're in *real* trouble now that he bought the farm. # 354 From : DAN DOSSIN To : PHIL REED Subject : MOVIE Date : Tue. 08/10/82 06:13 Thanks Phil, really thanks. You just saved me about $15 dollars (including pop corn). Perhaps you could give us the 6:00 news for the next week or so. With that information we could decide iif it is worth while to get out of bed. I would like some inside information on the stock market. Nothing big, just enough to make a couple of million. Thanks. The Mad Forester. # 355 From : JEFF GARBERS To : TWIMC Subject : THE *REAL* STORY Date : Tue. 08/10/82 09:15 No, no, Phil, you've got it all wrong. Few people know it, but I am employed as a creative consultant to the studio responsible for the Trek movies, and they gave me free rein for the next movie. So here's the *real* story. Captain Kirk, despondent over the loss of his pal Spock, quits Starfleet and opens a Taco Bell on Betelgeuse 3. The tranquility and grease soon get to him, and we feel pity for the Captain as we see him sticking two burritos onto a tostada, running around with the resulting model, and crying 'Zoooom! Nyaaaaaaow! Pow! Pow! Take that, Klingons! Nyaaaaaow!' The Captain is relieved of his franchise when he is found stepping on Cinnamon Crispas "because I like the sound". Meanwhile, the brain transferrence between Spock and McCoy (Phil guessed right on that one) is taking its toll on the good doctor. Spock's personality has begun to assert itself (as a result of some assertiveness training, no doubt) and McCoy is found attaching little Play-Doh points to his ears. "I'm a doctor, dammit, *and* a computer technician," he shouts, much to the amusement of the lab animals in Sick Bay. On the bridge, it is revealed that Mr. Saavik really *is* a mister, and he/she is kicked out of Starfleet for dressing too extravagantly and attempting to corrupt an ensign. The main conflict in the movie arises when the female crewmembers mutiny, angrily demanding that they get their old mini-skirts from the TV show back. They take over the Enterprise and re-decorate in pastels. Starfleet is perturbed and threatens to ban the Enterprise crew from playing video games during shore leave. The situation is rectified. But what of Uhura? /// JPG # 357 From : KATHERINE RIVES To : LUNITICS, ETC. Subject : UHURA??? Date : Tue. 08/10/82 11:32 Hi everyone. You folks don't know about Uhura??? Having discovered Kirk on B-3, Uhura takes over the ship with McCoy/Spock & Mr. Saavik. She then takes the now insane Kirk in tow and sets out to retrieve Spock's body. She then aranges a trade where Spock enters Kirk's brain, straightens out Kirk and can't get out again. So Kirk finds his way into Uhura's body, and Uhura, finding things a bit crowded for her taste, vacates for Spock's old body (which Spock understandable wants back). In the meantime, Saavik has fallen in love with Spock not knowing that Uhura is in his body, which iritates Uhura to no end. At this point Gene Rodenberry has a nervous breakdown and ST IV is eagerly awaited. >>KAT<< # 360 From : JEFF GARBERS To : TWIMC Subject : TREK III Date : Tue. 08/10/82 19:17 Sample dialog from Trek III: Chekov: "Klingon destroyed, kyptin!" Kirk: "Ooh! What a difference photon torpedoes make!" /// JPG # 366 From : PHIL REED To : TREKKERS Subject : SAVVIK'S PARENTS Date : Wed. 08/11/82 09:10 Jeff, nice try. However, see if you can top this. We all know that Savvik is half Vulcan, half Romulan. The question that springs to mind is "How did this occur" (Besides the mechanics, I mean)?? Curiously, we can answer this question with information from the ST series. Remember, one of the second season episodes had the Romulans owning a cloaking device that would make their ships undetectable. As usual, Kirk & Co. decide to rescue the federation. They draw lots and pick Spock as the person who could slip aboard without being recognized, and Kirk as backup, after he gets a little plastic surgery on his ears. So, Spock beams aboard, and after some (mis)adventures, gets himself captured. He is taken to the Romulan captain (a female, remember?) who, very much taken with him, invites him to dinner. In fact, we see them at dinner, *in* *her* *quarters*!! Who can guess what dessert was? So, we see that >>>SAVVIK IS SPOCK'S DAUGHTER<<< Top that. ...phil # 381 From : ROY GREEN To : KAT & PHIL Subject : CAT AND TREK Date : Thu. 08/12/82 21:42 [Some non-Trek-related comments deleted here. -- Spaf] phil, your assessment of st3 sounds plausible, however..... betsy (the human) and i jumped to the same conclusion about mister savvik, however, since vulcans only go into heat (both male and female) once every seven years, i find it unlikely that such a clandestine affair could've occured. (spock's parents *were* married (or whatever they called it that era).) later.... r.green,esq. plot analyst for dean-witter # 388 From : KATHERINE RIVES To : TREKKERS Subject : SAAVIK Date : Fri. 08/13/82 21:07 NO, NO, NO!! you have it all wrong. First of all, there seems to be some confusion as to how the woman spells her name. Once and for all, it is Saavik. Secondly, you must read the novel form of ST-TWOK. Besides being reasonably well written, it gives a lot of additional background that is not in the movie. For instance, Saavik is indeed half Vulcan and half Romulan. However, this came about on a planet where the Romulans were in charge of things. It seems that one of their notions of fun is to rape captive Vulcans and then force them to live to see the birth of the bastard or give birth to it, as the case may be. Since the official Romulan word was that mating between the species was impossible, these children were abandoned when they vacated the planet. Certainly the Romulan parents did not need them after they served their purpose of humiliating their Vulcan parents. This is where Saavik comes in. She was about 12, and a wild abandoned child when Spock found her on this planet. He saw some potential in her and saw that she got thru the Academy. Much of her upbringing, not to mention her Romulan ancestry, shows up in her temper. And being very proud, she refused the test that would positively identify her Vulcan parent, not wishing to bring disgrace on the dead parent's family. For all you who hoped that Spock had gotten something from that Romulan commander long ago... sorry. >>KAT<< # 392 From : PHIL REED To : WHOEVER Subject : QUICK NOTES Date : Sat. 08/14/82 23:33 Trek: I will point out that in the Trek movies, as with SW and TESB (Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back), the ONLY thing you can count on is the movie. G. Lucas has made a great deal of noise to speculators that all speculation must NOT include any written sources, that only the information in the movies must be considered. I understand that the ST folks are the same way. [non-Trek-related stuff deleted here --Spaf] ...phil # 393 From : MARVIN YIZAR To : JEFF Subject : SPOCKS SPERM Date : Sun. 08/15/82 01:41 SAAVIK IS SPOCK'S DAUGHTER!!! A VERY LOGICAL DEDUCTION!! BOY ARE YOU GUYS UP THERE!! YOU ARE REALLY ON THE BALL!! WE ARE STILL WONDERING HOW THAT BOY BECAME KIRK'S SON?? WHEN DID KIRK GET MARRIED?? [Some comments concerning behind-the-scene activities deleted for lack of couth. --Spaf] # 395 From : HOWARD MILLER To : TREKKIES Subject : KIRK'S PECCADILLOES Date : Sun. 08/15/82 09:35 Anyone who has watched Star Trek knows that there were many scenes in which Kirk is seen putting his boots back on after spending more than the required 5 minutes in his quarters with some strange but beautiful woman. As for marriage, everyone knows his marriage certificate says 'ENTERPRISE'. # 404 From : ROY GREEN To : MARVIN YIZAR Subject : SPOCK'S WILD OATS?? Date : Mon. 08/16/82 20:08 Once again, I reiterate.... Spock is a Vulcan, no? Vulcans have mating cycles of SEVEN (Count 'em) years. It is 'highly illogical' to assume that Spock would have wasted his 7-year itch on a Romulan female, since Spock himself seems to be a bit insecure of his own half-human status. Kat's explanation (from the book) is much more plausible. It would be a nice turn if Saavik were Spock's daughter, and eventually married David. However, I'm sure that someone on the production team has nixed that as being too trite a situation. I'm sure Saavik and David will be married. And I think there will be a not-so-silly way of bringing Spock back from the dead. Since the Genesis matrix was so strong it could create from nothing, it should be strong enough to revive Spock. But that brings the focus to the 'remains' of Khan's merry band. Might they also be revived?? And track Kirk down to thank him??? and what becomes of uhura? # 411 From : PHIL REED To : ALL Subject : HELLO, I MUST BE GOING... Date : Wed. 08/18/82 04:42 Roy: The difference between Spock and Kahn's crew was that they were caught by the initial burst of the Genesis effect, but Spock's body was stuck on the planet later. ...phil # 413 From : KATHERINE RIVES To : ALL Subject : ANY Date : Wed. 08/18/82 20:55 Marvin and other Trekkers: Everyone knows that Kirk was married only once. The episode was entitled "The Paradise Syndrone" and his wife was the indian woman Mirrimani (sp?). As for Spock, I agree with Roy (msg 404). Look up that and msg 388. Phil: That's very interesting about the written sources not being officially sanctioned by the ST crew. I had thought otherwise. What is to prevent someone from distorting the story all out of proportion, once getting permission to write it?? Roy: Hi, you have a very good point about Spock. Even when he was officially married to T'Pring, he was not interested in her (granted, he had just 'killed' his captain to get her). One wonders, though, what Amanda (Spock's mother) did in the seven year intervals... bet she was plenty bored. >>KAT<< # 427 From : ROY GREEN To : KATHERINE AND DAVE Subject : AMANDA AND CAT HAIR Date : Fri. 08/20/82 21:34 KAT, IF AMANDA WAS ANYTHING LIKE MY EX-FIANCE, THEN SHE COULD GO 14 YEARS WITHOUT BLINKING AN EYE. (WHICH IS WHY MY EX-FIANCE IS EX-) MAYBE HER HUSBAND WAS A VULCAN VERSION OF A SUGAR DADDY? [non-Trek-related comments deleted here. But what of Uhuru? --Spaf] End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 11-Oct SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 58 *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Oct 1982 2227-PDT From: SFL at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 58 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest 11-Oct-82 Volume 6 : Issue 58 Today's Topics: Dune declining, SF cons list update, ET, Piers Anthony, Bradbury Brunner, Jedi trailer, MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS query, sequel failures, AI in SF query, Bradley's HAWKMISTRESS ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 Sep 1982 0003-PDT From: Zellich at OFFICE-3 (Rich Zellich) Subject: SF Cons listing updated To: Cons-List update notice list: cc: SF-Lovers-Request at SRI-CSL OFFICE-3 file CONS.TXT has been updated and is now ready for FTP. OFFICE-3 supports the net-standard "ANONYMOUS" Login within FTP, using any password. CONS.TXT is currently 1088 lines (or 53,175 characters). Please try to limit your FTP jobs to before 0600-CDT and after 1600-CDT if possible, as the system is heavily loaded during the day. Enjoy, Rich ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 1982 1709-EDT From: YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO To: SF-Lovers at MIT-AI Subject: [DD-B : SF Lovers submission] - - - - - - - Begin message from: DD-B Date: 15 September 1982 10:45-EDT (Wednesday) To: Young at Market From: DD-B Reply-to: DYER-BENNET AT KL2137 DTN: 231-4076 LOC/MS: MRO1-2/L14 Subject: SF Lovers submission ( Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #44 ) (Dolata at SUMEX-AIM) Medics 'last gasp' efforts: given the postulated state of almost complete ignorance, how can you be sure that the alien is really about to die? If you don't know that the alien is about to die, how can you justify taking drastic actions with no information to guide them? And, of course, how can you justify ignoring the reactions of the person (even if only a kid) who knows most about the alien? ( Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #45 ) (Gene Spafford ) Interesting thoughts on our heroes. For some gentler SF, I'd recommend looking into Piers Anthony's Xanth series (4 books currently?). There's a lot of conflict, but the main character seems to me to strive consistently to minimize it. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 82 11:28:04-EDT (Thu) From: David Axler To: sf-lovers at Sri-Csl Subject: Science Fiction & Opera Bradbury's planned "Moby Dick in Space" (c.f. SFL 6:48) won't be the first sf opera (even if one ignores all the fantasy elements found in many operatic plots). Earlier this century, "Aniara" was written by (*I think*) Harry Martinsson, a Swedish author & composer. I don't recall whether the book came before or after the opera, but the story is about the trials and tribulations of the denizens of a "generation starship." I believe that both book and recordings are still in print. The opera itself is quite interesting, as it's laden with "spacy" instruments like theremins and ondes martinot. I don't believe it's been performed in the States in quite some time -- an interesting project for some truly enterprising Con Committee! ------------------------------ Date: 11 Oct 1982 1124-PDT Sender: BILLW at SRI-KL Subject: The Sheep Look Up From: William "Chops" Westfield To: SFL at SRI-KL(Attn: sf-lovers) Cc: oster at WHARTON-10 Message-ID: <[SRI-KL]11-Oct-82 11:24:06.BILLW> Although the author, style, and tone of "The Sheep Look Up" are all quite similar to "Stand on Zanzibar", it is in no way a sequel! None of the characters are common, and the basic assumptions (Pollution vs Over-population) are different. WW ------------------------------ Date: 19 Sep 1982 1712-EDT From: Alyson L. Abramowitz To: sf-lovers at SRI-CSL Subject: Contributions From ENet SF-LOVERS From: MERLIN::WAJENBERG 15-SEP-1982 15:37 To: KIRK::SF_LOVERS Subj: Declining quality of DUNE books Someone recentlyasked why the first DUNE book was so much better than the others. The person who said it was because Campbell was a hidden co-author has a great deal of truth on its side. But there is another reason. DUNE (the first book) holds rigidly to the Heroic Cycle as described by Lord Raglan, a British anthropologist. Ragaln lays out 22 events which an ideal hero goes through. No real hero of myth or legend scores all 22, but many get the vast majority. Paul Muad'Dib gets about 20 of the 22. Unfortunately, he gets almost all of them in the first book. Only two or three are left for DUNE MESSIAH, and CHILDREN OF DUNE and GOD EMPEROR OF DUNE are beyond the cycle completely. I don't claim the cycle is magical, but it HAS managed to attract a good deal of human interest, in all cultures, for as long as we have record. Anyway, it gave Herbert a ready-made plot. Once that plot gave out, so did the DUNE series. The things which happen to Paul Muad'Dib that occur in Raglan's heroic cycle are (as best memory serves): 1) The circumstances of his conception are unusual. (His mother conceived him male, when she could have conceived him female, and was so ordered.) 2) He was threatened in childhood. (Rather late childhood, but there it is.) 3) The person threatening was a relative of his mother's. 4) He eluded the threat and lived in a far land for a long time. 5) We hear little of the time he lived in the far land. 6) When he came of age (learned to ride sandworms), he arose to claim his heritage. 7) He defeated a monster/tyrant (a Raglan hero can do either; Paul did both if you allow worm-riding to count). 8) He married the daughter of his predecessor (Princess Irulan). 9) He ruled peacefully for a while. 10) He passed laws. 11) He lost the favor the gods/the people. (People in Paul's case.) 12) He was dirven from the community. (Self-exile, but in accordance with old Fremen custom.) 13) He met a mysterious death. I may have forgotten some. If anyone is interested, I can relate the entire 22-point cycle, to the interested party alone, or to SFL generally. ------------------------------ Date: 19-Sep-82 7:52PM-EDT (Sun) From: Nathaniel Mishkin Subject: Revenge of the Jedi -- Trailer To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL I heard that the upcoming re-release of SW-TESB will contain an even longer trailer (~15mins) for SW-ROTJ. Apparently the SW people are not bothering to advertise either of the trailers (for SW-ANH or SW-TESB) figuring that its main attraction is going to be to SW freaks and they're gonna find out about it anyway. -- Nat ------------------------------ Date: 20 Sep 1982 0929-MDT From: Dudley Irish Subject: The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. To: sf-lovers at SRI-CSL Does anyone know where this title comes from originally. I have been told that it was used by Joni Mitchel(sp?) in a song and, of course, we all know it as the title to a book by Heinlien, but does it have a more noble past (if one could) that I don't know about? For the curious, it came up in a conversation at a party. Dudley Irish IRISH@UTAH-20 ------------------------------ Date: 20 Sep 82 17:11:03-EDT (Mon) From: David Axler To: sf-lovers at Sri-Csl Subject: Sequel Failure An entry in a recent issue of SFL tried to answer M. Melkar's question as to why sequels are often less good than the initial books. Without knocking the answer propounded, I'd suggest that a major reason is that which Norman Spinrad has discussed at length in his column "Stayin' Alive," which appears in LOCUS (and, I've heard, will soon be turned into a book). Spinrad's thesis, essentially, is that the current state of the sf publishing industry (which differs in some ways from the "normal" publ. ind.) is pushing authors into writing novels which have the potential for extension via sequels, and that the necessity of creating such sequelae when one is (a) sick of the characters and/or (b) has said all one wanted to say with them is a problem that needs curing. He feels that all segments of the sf world (authors, readers, fans, publishers, agents, other media, &c.) are to blame for this, though in differing degrees; the basic agent of the trouble, though, is the need for the author to pay his or her bills. I know that some SFL readers are involved in the creation of sf in its many forms, and would be interested in hearing their opinions on Spinrad's theory (which I've severely compressed, though hopefully w/o misstatement). ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 11 October 1982 18:49-EDT Sender: AGRE at MIT-OZ From: AGRE at MIT-MC To: sf-lovers at MIT-OZ I have a question for the world of sf-lovers. What are the ten science fiction books that everybody who wants to understand artificial intelligence should read? Reply to me since I'm not an sf-lovers subscriber. Answers will go in the file OZ:SF.BOOKS for the curious. - phiL ------------------------------ Date: 19 Sep 82 1:14-PDT From: mclure at SRI-UNIX To: sf-lovers at Sri-Csl Subject: sf column n520 2046 18 Sep 82 BC-SCIFI-09-19 SCIENCE FICTION By Roland J. Green (c) 1982 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service) Marion Zimmer Bradley's ''Hawkmistress!'' (DAWNew American Library, $2.95 paperback) is her 16th novel set on the planet Darkover. Darkover, circled by four moons, rotates about a distant red sun. Settled by the survivors of a lost starship, it remained isolated for more than 2,000 years before the expanding Terran Empire rediscovered it. During that time the settlers adapted to their new homeworld's harshly chill climate and lack of metals. Sexual equality gave way to patriarchy, democracy to feudalism or monarchy, and science to the exploration of complex paranormal powers known as laran. Yet the Darkovans survived, developed their own unique culture, interbred with the alien chieri, and even survived the impact of contact with the Terrans. This description sounds like the ingredients for good straightforward space adventure with overtones of fantasy; indeed ''Darkover'' can be appreciated at that level. The description doesn't make clear another undeniable truth: ''Darkover'' is an authentic SF saga. For sheer skill in storytelling and wordbuilding, for wit, for strikingly intelligent development of the concept of telepathy, above all for continous concern for people, Bradley has put some more famous SF sagas in shade. ''Hawkmistress'' begins when 15-year-old Romilly MacAran is faces with an arranged marriage to a nobleman she finds utterly repulsive. Not only that, he will prevent her from using her rare form of laran, an ability to communicate with hawks and horses. Disguising herself as a boy, she flees her father's estate and promptly discovers that her new freedom is far from complete. She has exchanged old constraints for new ones. In the end, she becomes involved in a deadly civil war for the throne of the local kingdom, and finds love (or at least affection), some reconcilation with her family, and as much freedom as she now realizes she can reasonably expect. ''Hawkmistress'' lays out with exceptional clarity (although without undue preaching) the themes of choice and price, central to Bradley's work. The wise know that life is a series of choices, each with its price. You can't have everything. The foolish try to avoid the choices. The good are willing to pay the price of their choices themselves, the evil or lazy (who in Bradley's books seem to be roughly the same) try to fob off the price of their choices onto others. Bradley doubtless owes a good part of her popularity to her eloquent concern with the way men have of making women do the paying. Her sympathies, however, are too broad and her sense of the integrity of a story too well developed to justify pinning a ''feminist'' label on her. Like many other SF authors, Bradley greatly benefited from the collapse of the traditional 60,000-word limit for SF novels in the early '70s. Beginning with ''Heritage of Hastur'' (DAW, 1975), Bradley has moved from strength to strength. The Planet of the Bloody Sun has proven more than slightly addictive to many readers, who start off with one and shortly find themselves haunting the bookstores for more. This, of course, is the reward every saga creator dreams of; seldom has it gone to a worthier author. Acquiring all the books of a 16-volume sage is a daunting task. Keeping up with short science fiction and fantasy is becoming every bit as painful, with magazines constantly changing editors, owners, and distributors, and sometimes winking out of existence between one issue and the next. Three solid anthologies offer the SF reader short of time or money to chase down all the magazines a good notion where short science fiction is going, as well as a deal of fine reading. They are Terry Carr's ''Universe 12'' (Doubleday, $10.95), ''Best Science Fiction of the Year No. 12'' (TimescapePocket Books, $2.95 paperback) and Donald A. Wollheim's ''The 1982 Annual World's Best SF'' (DAWNew American Library, $2.95 paperback). ''Universe'' is an anthology of original and slightly experimental fiction; the two paperbacks hold well-chosen reprints, and can be particularly recommended for SF teachers. END nyt-09-18-82 2336edt ********** End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 12-Oct SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 59 *** EOOH *** Date: 12 Oct 1982 2227-PDT From: SFL at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 59 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest 12-Oct-82 Volume 6 : Issue 59 Today's Topics: Violence, Wolfe book postponed, HGttG, Here's the plot responses Haldeman, Pohl, Adams books ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 11 Oct 1982 2104-PDT Sender: BILLW at SRI-KL Subject: Violence From: William "Chops" Westfield To: SFL at SRI-CSL(Attn: sf-lovers) Foo. There is violence, and then there is Violence. Plannets can be destroyed and millions killed, whippings inflicted and all sorts of nasty things done without a book or movie being Violent. It is actually really difficult to write a book that is so violent as to be offensive. However, I can certainly do without a directors (inacurate!) depiction of how a persons head explodes whe subjected to vacuum, or pieces of bodies flying through the air, and the like. Excessive, graphic, unnecessary Violence is objectionable, and not necessary to the development of a conflict! BillW ------------------------------ Date: 11-Oct-82 14:23:40-PDT (Mon) From: INGVAX.kalash@Berkeley (Joe Kalash) Subject: Wolfe book postponed, and 42 Via: INGVAX.BerkNet (V3.74 [1/10/82]); 11-Oct-82 14:23:43-PDT (Mon) To: SF-LOVERS@SRI-CSL Heard from the mouth of the Simon and Schuster Rep. himself, Citadel of the Autarch has been postponed until January. No reason was given. A friend of mine (Charles Koester, to give credit) noticed that 42 = 6*9, when taken in base 13. Has anybody else noticed this (this is all a reference to Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy...) Joe ------------------------------ Date: 12 Oct 82 2:45:21-EDT (Tue) From: Ron Natalie To: sf-lovers at Sri-Csl Subject: HGttG You might be willing to pay the price for "Life, the Universe, and Everything" if you are dying to know why the bowl of petunias thought "Oh, No! Not again." ------------------------------ Date: 12 Oct 1982 14:45:46 EST (Tuesday) From: Jeff Bowles Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 56 In-Reply-to: Your message of 10 Oct 1982 22:27 PDT To: SFL at SRI-CSL Yes. I'm kind of hoping for a distraction the next time I'm falling to my death. Jeff ps. Do you think that Adams will ever tell us what the question to Life, the Universe, and Everything *REALLY* is? ------------------------------ Date: 12 Oct 1982 08:00 PDT From: DMRussell at PARC-MAXC Subject: "Here's the plot, what's the title?" -- from SFL Digest v 6, n 51 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL, Flowers@YALE, Black@YALE The story about the telekinetic chimpanzee that escapes from the lab and promises to make the world "go away" is -- "Susie's Reality" by Bob Stickgold Originally appeared in: "Worlds of If", UPD Publishing Co. (1973) Collected in: "Introductory Psychology Through Science Fiction", H. Katz, P. Warrick, M. H. Greeburg, eds., Rand McNally (1974) By the bye, the psych SF collection is superb! It's one of my most treasured anthologies. Sadly, I think it is now out-of-print. -- Dan Russell ------------------------------ Date: 12 Oct 1982 16:28 EDT From: Russell.wbst at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: here's the plot ... In-reply-to: SFL's message of 10 Oct 1982 2227-PDT To: SF-Lovers at SRI-CSL The story of the chimp with a different "view" of the world is "Susie's Reality" by Bob Stickgold. I have it in a book called Introductory Psychology through Science Fiction which is a collection of short stories related to psychology published by Rand McNally. I recall enjoying this book tremendously when it was required reading for an undergrad psych course. The copyright in the book says the story was also published in Worlds of If in 1973 by UPD Publishing Corp. regards, Corky Russell ------------------------------ Date: 12 Oct 1982 14:51:23 EST (Tuesday) From: Jeff Bowles Subject: Sequels To: sf-lovers at sri-csl Hmmm. It seems as if the world can't get enough of a good thing. I notice that the "Xanth" trilogy is into its fifth book, and I'll bet that Mr. Anthony is busily writing the sixth. (No, he's probably writing the seventh book and the sixth one is at the publisher.) Dr. Asimov just completed the forth book in the Foundation Trilogy. George Lucas is busy creating an empire (no, he's already created it, and is busy investing the money wisely) on the sequel to the sequel to a very popular movie. Larry Niven is writing "Ringworld" yet another time. Clarke has just finished the sequel to 2001. (As if the movie was bad enough. Let's hope this book isn't mucked up the way 2001 was.) Burroughs started the world thinking about "Gor", "Tarzan", and "Conan", and others decided to write sequels. And sequels. And sequels. And... The people in Hollywood decided to do a remake of the old "Superman" television series. Which was a remake of the comic books. Which was... And then there was "Superman II". Need I go on? It's a little bad when I can't just pick up a book, read it, and not lie awake nights wondering about the loose ends. Jeff ------------------------------ Date: 12 Oct 1982 1550-EDT From: TYG at MIT-OZ at MIT-MC Subject: New Projects: Haldeman, Pohl, Adams, Sim To: sf-lovers at SRI-CSL At Chicon IV, i asked Joe Haldeman about the next book. He said it was about finished, and should be out next year. Niven/Pournelle's next book is Footfall about an alien invasion of earth. The book is due to the publisher by next spring. Fred Pohl has just about finished the new Heechee book, although at Chicon he decided to rewrite a 100 page section. He plans a new book of stories detailing the next few centuries of New York City, which will include one entitled "The Day New York Hit the Fan" (so much for New York in '86 worldcon bid if the city is gonna be that hostile to fen). Douglas Adams says that he won't be writing another Hitchhiker's book, but then that is what he said after Restaurant. If he does, the audience suggested the title "So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish". A movie of Hitchhiker's is planned, and the ABC television series is dead (Thank Ghu!). He is currently working on a book which is a dictionary of English place names with definitions based on what the word sounds like (this is very hard to describe). Dave Sim, creator of the Cerebus the Aardvark comic, says he has plans for a movie version of Cerebus, all taking place before issue one. Any other Cerebus fans out there? tom galloway ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 14-Oct SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 60 *** EOOH *** Date: 14 Oct 1982 2227-PDT From: SFL at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 60 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest 14-Oct-82 Volume 6 : Issue 60 Today's Topics: Space Patrol, Piers Anthony, Bladerunner violence & anachronism Raiders "lost scene", Adams & 42, SF book club, SF opera, Spock Luke's father & everything ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue Oct 12 1982 22:19:02 PDT From: Lauren Weinstein Subject: Welcome Back SF-L and a query answered To: lbl-unix!SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Greetings! All of us here at the Vortex are pleased to have SF-L back with us. A recent digest asked about a late 50's/early 60's television program that starred a character named "Corey" in a variety of space/time adventures. The only show I know of that fits the bill is the famous "Space Patrol", which did indeed run during that designated period. Most of the shows were more on the "space" theme, but it did cover alot of ground for the time (and on a budget that would have made "Dr. Who" seem well-endowed (so to speak) by comparison.) The "USA Cable Network" currently carries "Space Patrol" as part of their (excellent) "Night Flight" program on Friday and Saturday nights. I believe that "Space Patrol" airs at around 11PM Eastern, with a repeat about 3 hours later. The show even includes the original pitches trying to get kids to send in their quarters for the "monoview" cardboard space helmets ("you can see out but your enemies can't see in...") Priceless. If your local cable doesn't carry USA Network, just aim your home earth terminal at SATCOM IIIR and tune around -- you'll find it. Once again: "Welcome Back SF-LOVERS!" --Lauren-- ------------------------------ Date: 13 Oct 82 01:37:29 EDT (Wed) From: Chris Torek Subject: Non-violent stories? To: sf-lovers at Sri-Csl I suggest anyone interested in sf/fantasy in which the hero attempts to reason out conflicts rather than battle them down read some of the books by Piers Anthony. Both his Xanth trilogy (five books now) and his Double Exposure trilogy (only three books) fit this description. Also of interest may be his Cluster trilogy (five books) and the Orn/Omnivore/Ox trilogy (speaking of which, has anyone EVER seen all three of these together at once? I have a theory that one will be eaten by the other two, at random, if they are all placed together.) though it's been a while since I read these, and I'm not sure they fit the requirements. Anthony's main characters always seem to think with their brains first, when possible. - Chris ------------------------------ Date: 12 Oct 82 20:39:55 EDT (Tue) From: Paul R McMullin Subject: the violence in Bladerunner To: sf-lovers at Sri-Csl, dunteman.wbst at Parc-Maxc Go see Bladerunner, and decide for yourself. I personally abhor the "violence-for-the-sake-of-blood-and-guts-on-the-screen" mentality, but I didn't find Bladerunner near as objectional as I had been led to believe it would be from the reviews in sf-lovers. All-in-all, I thought that it was pretty good, and the violence WAS handled fairly well in the context of the story. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Oct 82 08:43:13 EDT (Tue) From: Andrew Scott Beals Subject: anachronism in blade runner To: sf-lovers at Sri-Csl Perhaps Deckert has a Smallpox vaccination scar because sometime in his life, some terrorists broke into CDC or WHO labs, stole the virus, demanded money, and then released it to the general population. I, for one could definitely see this happening (for instance, it's believed that the plague remains encysted in london's plague pits, and if someone was insane enough (most terrorists are), he could get into one, and hold his own mini biological war...). ------------------------------ Date: 12 Oct 82 20:55:16-PST (Tue) From: Stephen Willson To: sf-lovers.uci at UDel-Relay cc: willson.uci at UDel-Relay Subject: The scene they left out of raiders of the lost ark My friend Paul Clatworthy, presently of Wichita KS, sent me the following, which will be of interest to sf-lovers readers, assuming they can stomach yet-another-RotLA story: "as described by Lawrence Kasdan, screenwriter on raiders 'American Film', April 1982, p. 13,28 'In the first draft of Raiders, Indiana Jones is flying from the United States to Nepal. He's on the plane and he goes to sleep. There's a normal complement of passengers--a little old lady, some tourists, some Orientals. While Indy's asleep, the crew and all the passengers get up together, put on parachutes, and tiptoe out of the plane, leaving him there alone. The pilot has locked the cockpit, and the plane is headed for Everest or some other notable mountain. He wakes up, looks around frantically, and pulls out an inflatable life raft. He wraps it around his body while it's still uninflated and jumps out of the plane, pulling the inflation cord, and bounces safely down in the snow. Then he rides down the mountain using the raft as a sled. After we looked at it, we thought maybe that was over the line.' (good thinking, Kaz, 'ol buddy.) ptc" Steve Willson willson.uci@udel-relay -------------------- Date: Wednesday, 13 Oct 1982 11:20-PDT To: sf-lovers at SRI-CSL Subject: The Answer (to L, the U, and E) From: obrien at RAND-UNIX I heard from a usually unimpeachable source (doesn't hold office, can't be impeached) that when asked flat-out, "What's the significance of 42, and where did you come up with it?", that Mr. Adams replied to the effect that the British Medical Association's guidelines on what to do after childbirth specify that the couple should refrain from intercourse for six weeks post-partum. That's 42 days. ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 13 October 1982 19:19-PDT From: KDO at SRI-KL To: CS.EMERSON at UTEXAS-20 Cc: sf-lovers at MIT-AI Subject: the Science Fiction Book Club Yes, the SFBC is a good deal, especially if you like hardback books, and are not such a snob that it upsets you for them to say "Science Fiction Book Club edition" on them. The normal deal is 5 books free (or for $1) + about $3 postage and handling (and profit?) and then you are required to buy 4 more within 6 months or a year. Watch out - if you are only getting 4 free you should look for a better offer. I believe it is possible to get a total of 6 free books under an enroll-your-friend deal (member gets 1, friend gets 5). Once you have bought your 4 books and quit, within a few months they will probably send you a special rejoin-offer, involving 5 free books and you only have to buy 1 more. Ken ------------------------------ Date: 12 Oct 1982 2251-EDT From: HEDRICK at RUTGERS (Mgr DEC-20s/Dir LCSR Comp Facility) Subject: SF opera To: sf-lovers at SRI-CSL Someone has already mentioned Aniara. (I have also forgotten the composer, but I remember a name closer to Karl-Berger Blomdahl.) In addition to that, C. S. Lewis' Perelandra was also turned into an opera. The music was written by Swann (of the British comedy team Flanders and Swann). The only performance I ever heard of was done by Haverford and Bryn Mawr Colleges jointly. It did a fairly good job of reproducing the effect of the novel. However the person who prepared the words made what most people regarded as a few unnecessary changes. None of them caused changes in the plot or character. But Lewis' dialog was perfectly good, and one just wondered what the point was to changing it. I made the official recording of the performance, which is why I happen to know about it. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Oct 1982 23:10:03 EST (Tuesday) From: Mike Meyer Subject: Spock, Luke's father, and everything... To: sf-lovers at sri-csl Cc: mwm at OKC-UNIX Let me see if I have this straight: Spock a.k.a. Zaphod Beeblebrox the IV - last hope of the Jedi - shot J.R. Ewing, who is Luke's father. Does that cover all the [bases]? mike ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 15-Oct SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 61 *** EOOH *** Date: 15 Oct 1982 2227-PDT From: SFL at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 61 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest 15-Oct-82 Volume 6 : Issue 61 Today's Topics: Wanted: SF-LOVERS archives since August 1981 Twilight Zone guide revision available review of Asimov's FOUNDATION'S EDGE Piers Anthony & violence plague alive and well base 13 and Hgttg TRON Bladerunner from R.U.R.? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 15 Oct 1982 1933-PDT From: SFL at SRI-CSL Subject: Wanted: archives of sf-lovers To: sfl We are trying to complete the set of SF-LOVERS archives and make them available for general consumption. We have everything up to August 1981 but nothing since then. If you have the digests since then (or some portion thereof) or know where they are, please let us know by sending a message to this address. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Oct 1982 1637-PDT From: Sfl Subject: revision of Twilight Zone guide To: sfl A new version of the Twilight Zone guide is available. Thanks go to Lauren for making it available again. To get a copy, use FTP from your site. The file is TWILIGHT-ZONE.;1 on SRI-CSL. This machine supports the ANONYMOUS login FTP convention. Also, Lauren hints that a new revision of the Outer Limits guide may be available soon. ------------------------------ Date: 15 October 1982 02:11-EDT From: Don M. Matheson To: SF-Lovers at SRI-CSL Subject:Foundation's Edge Having just read Foundation's Edge, I must admit that I was a bit disapointed. One of the things that made the trilogy unique was it's time- span, whereby a given set of characters would be dealt with for a few chapters, then suddenly, they would be the legends in the minds of the new characters, a few hundred years further down the line. Foundation's edge covers just one such time-frame, albeit a crucial one in regard to the Seldon Plan. More disappointing than this though, was the book's cop-out there's- going-to-be-another-sequel ending. The conflicts built up to until the last few pages are more or less brushed aside, and left only partially resolved. Of course, it may be that I have an exageratedly rosy memory of the original books, since it has been many years since I've read them. Don't get me wrong though, I still recommend the book to anyone who liked the trilogy. On a different note, has anyone seen any post-Tom Baker episodes of Dr. Who? I saw a picture of the new Who on one of the books, and he looks more preppie than timelordish (He even has cute little questions-marks on his shirt-collars). I hear that the timelords can supposedly regenerate themselves periodically in a new form, but somehow I can't quite picture this guy as Who. He doesn't even have the hat, scarf, and/or an infinite number of pockets. Cheers -- DMM ------------------------------ Date: 14 Oct 1982 12:03:51-EDT From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX To: chris.umcp-cs at udel-relay Subject: re non-violent stories (Anthony examples) Cc: sf-lovers at sri-csl OMNIVORE/ORN/OX (to give them in their chronological order) is not exactly a sterling example of non-violent working-out of problems, although those who resort to violence first are sometimes shown as villains. Consider the ambiguous portrayal of the various government agents. . . . Also, I have indeed seen all three of these together at once, although only in a library; by contrast, BATTLE CIRCLE (containing SOS THE ROPE, VAR THE STICK, and NEQ THE SWORD) is generally available. It's not surprising that American publishers are careless about reprinting the works of an English author (I didn't check during Seacon to see if British publishers were any more attentive); considering that somebody let the rights to KING KOBOLD (the middle portion of Stasheff's Gramarye series) lapse, I'm rarely surprised at \\anything// American publishers fail to do. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Oct 1982 09:41 PDT From: Swenson at PARC-MAXC Subject: Plague In-reply-to: SF-LOVERS Digest Vol 6, #60 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL cc: Swenson.pa "for instance, it's believed that the plague remains encysted in london's plague pits, and if someone was insane enough (most terrorists are), he could get into one, and hold his own mini biological war...)." The plague is alive and well in California's Sierra Nevada. Several cases are reported each year. Antibiotics seem to work well if the plague is diagnosed in time. Bob Swenson ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 14 October 1982 16:16-EDT Sender: RG.JMTURN at MIT-OZ From: RG.JMTURN at MIT-MC To: sf-lovers at sri-csl Subject: Base thirteen and Hgttg Many people have noticed it. There is even a button stating the fact. James ------------------------------ Date: 15 Oct 1982 0454-EDT From: Hobbit Subject: TRON, etc. To: sf-lovers at SRI-CSL I loved TRON, it reminded me strongly of our Vax and the little privileged processes that I let run around it sometimes. I thought the representation of the innards of a mainframe were very well done [although I have yet to see a vax built into a spherical box!]. Coupla minor things that I felt needed pointing out: How could Tron feel the presence of his author's being logged in, if his author's access had been canned earlier that very evening? Or maybe MCP didn't watch the dialups too carefully [which may be why Flynn's tank programs could get in there in the first place]. Niggling point, otherwise I loved it. Anyone remotely associated with conputers should definitely see it. Re: the Pac-man in the chartroom - Where I saw it, the whole theater started laughing when that scene flicked by. ''Come on, old man, I don't care if it's set /nobroadcast, I have to get this packet out!'' ''Oh, all *right*. Stand by, son, we're about to do a QIO!'' A little later... ''Oh, so *this* is how we bring the monitor to its knees!'' Re: Road Warrior: I enjoyed this one too, and managed to ignore most of the nastier violence. I especially liked all the kludges that they hacked into the vehicles; they must have had a whole raft of high-school auto shop students turned loose on a junkyard to make some of the props. See it; you will arrive home wanting to crack out the welder... _H* ------------------------------ Date: 15 Oct 82 12:58:17 EDT (Fri) From: Fred Blonder Subject: Blade Runner To: sf-lovers at Sri-Csl I noticed that the plot of ``Blade Runner'' borrowed heavily from the Play ``Rossum's Universal Robots'', written early this century by Carel Kapek (sp?). Rossum's robots were not the metallic-electronic robots of contemporary sf, but pseudo-organic creations with a built in life span of 20 years. They were built and sold as servants and workers. The only major differences in the stories seem to be that R.U.R. did not involve space travel, and the robots revolt and wipe out the human race entirely. R.U.R is mostly notable for being the first use of the word ``robot'', which is derived from the word ``work'' in some eastern-european languages. P.S.: Why did Los Angeles look like the interior of the Nostromo? P.P.S.: Why did the police cruisers look like the flying saucers from ``Close Encounters''? ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 17-Oct SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 62 *** EOOH *** Date: 17 Oct 1982 2227-PDT From: SFL at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 62 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest 17-Oct-82 Volume 6 : Issue 62 Today's Topics: Clarke's Laws, Bladerunner anachronism, SW/TESB & ice cream freezers, violence, Simak's WHERE THE EVIL DWELLS, Stallman's THE BEAST, Miesel's DREAMRIDER ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 October 1982 1323-EDT (Saturday) From: David.Lamb at CMU-10A To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: Clarke's laws Message-Id: <16Oct82 132334 DL10@CMU-10A> Some time ago I mentioned Clarke's laws in this digest, and someone asked me where they originated. I have now found them again; they occur in the essay "Technology and the Future", chapter 14 of "Report on Planet Three" by Arthur Clarke, available from Signet books. The three laws are 1) When a distinguished but elderly scientist says that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong. 2) The only way to discover the limits of the possible is to go beyond them into the impossible. 3) Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Oct 82 19:35:41-EDT (Fri) From: Gene Spafford To: sf-lovers at Sri-Csl Subject: assorted Re: Smallpox vaccination scar in Blade Runner Why is it assumed to be a smallpox vac scar? Maybe it is a scar for when he got the vaccine against Herpes II; maybe it's a birthmark; maybe it is a case of a cosmetic scar (for instance, kids of later years wanting to have something that looked like their elder's smallpox scars so as to look like they "belonged"); maybe it is a scar from an injury; maybe it was dirt. In any event, I don't see that as a major drawback. Re: Ice cream freezers Maybe this discussion already occurred and I missed it since I only got on the net a few months ago, but those of you who have spent so much time and energy looking for smallpox vaccination scars have assuredly seen the ice cream freezers in SW:TESB. WE've identified at least 3 scenes...how many are there? Re: Violence When I wrote that original piece about a month ago, I didn't intend it to be taken that I disliked action or conflict in my books or movies or whatever. Heck, I have so much conflict in my life, I'd be bored without in my leisure time pursuits! The point I really wanted to make is that we don't seem to focus much attention on other methods of resolving conflict. We don't idolize the peacemakers -- only the violent ones. Why is that? If we view humanity as the ability to apply reason to our problems and come up with a measured solution, then why can't we view the future as an improvement in this area? Is it because we have so many weapons and missiles waiting in the wings that the idea that we are "human" even now takes on absurdist proportions? Don't lecture me about what makes good literature -- that isn't what I was asking. Instead, ask yourself if speculative fiction is supposed to represent our future (a form of Delphi sample in paperback), and if so, why do so many writers see such pain and violence as the general rule? Then look at the world around you now. Gene Spafford ------------------------------ Date: 17 Oct 82 12:41-PDT From: mclure at SRI-UNIX To: sfl at Sri-Csl Subject: SF column n566 0341 17 Oct 82 BC-SCIFI-10-17 SCIENCE FICTION By Roland J. Green (c) 1982 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service) Clifford Simak's latest novel, ''Where the Evil Dwells'' (Del ReyBallantine, $11.95), is a deceptively simple quest tale. In an alternate world, the Roman Empire still survives in 1300 A.D., but the Evil - classic creatures of myth such as trolls, harpies, ogres, and dragons - constantly threatens its borders. Three men and a woman seek the soul of a legendary saint that may have some power to drive back the Evil. The characters are more complicated than the story, and the relations among them raise the book beyond the straightforward (less tactfully, plodding) level of too many quest tales. Harcourt, the nobleman's son, seeks a lost love either slain or kidnapped by the Evil. Guy, the warlike abbot, wants to restore the glory of his abbey by enshrining the saint's soul. The enigmatic girl, Yoland, carves wood superbly and is an excellent scout, as well as knowing enough about the land of the Evil to disturb her comrades. The Knurly Man has gained a permanent streak of dourness, but also much wisdom in his lifespan of several thousand years. And there are other characters, such as Nan the witch, an eccentric parrot, assorted magicians, and the inhabitants of the Evil lands themselves. In spite of calling the opposition merely ''the Evil,'' Simak is no writer to leave them a faceless menace. There is an ogre with a diplomat's desire to keep hostilities limited, a pathetic troll who will do almost anything to get a new bridge and a murderous herd of distinctly uncute unicorns. Simak knows very well that leaving the ''bad guys'' at the level of a mere force of nature affects our ability to believe in the ''good guys'' as well. It goes without saying that Simak's clear prose and his ability to paint a pastoral scene are as evident as ever. ''Where the Evil Dwells'' does not appear to be as ambitious a book as his ''Project Pope'' (also Del Rey Ballantine), but it is eminently successful storytelling. The late Robert Stallman's ''The Beast'' (TimescapePocket Books, $2.95 paperback) concludes ''The Book of the Beast,'' a trilogy that has to be considered one of the major works of American fantasy of the last decade. From beginning to end it has been an extraordinarily powerful and effective use of the theme of the shape-changer. In the first two books, ''The Orphan'' and ''The Captive'' (also Timescape paperbacks), the Beast travels from Depression-era Michigan to Chicago and on to New Mexico, sharing bodies successively with a child, a teenage boy, and a young man named Barry Golden. ''The Beast'' finds Golden in New Mexico, the father of a human child and increasingly uneasy about the coexistence of two beings in one body. The Beast shares this uneasiness. A time is approaching when he must find a female of his own species and mate with her, in order for both of them to pass on to the next stage in the life of their species. Otherwise they will be like caterpillers that can never become butterflies. In all three books, Stallman has met every demand the story creates for excellent characterization. He is a master of depicting altered states of consciousness, and also of using realistic detail to bring the 1930s to life as a setting for his fantasy tale. Sandra Miesel is an author who should have a long career ahead of her, judging from her first novel, Dreamrider (AceBerkley, $2.50 paperback). In an Orwellian near-future where perverted popular psychology takes the place of Big Brother, Ria, a young librarian at the University of Illinois in Champaign-Urbana, begins to have strange dreams. Exploring these dreams leads her into an alternate world, where the human race has been supplanted by intelligent otters, the result of genetic engineering. The portrait of the Orwellian world is a trifle shrill, but the alternate world is convincing and consistent. The two shamans who help the girl understand her situation, Kara the old woman and Lute the otter, are delightful creations, and the whole book shows a remarkably intelligent use of historical and mythic materials to create a fantasy story. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 19-Oct SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 63 *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Oct 1982 2227-PDT From: SFL at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 63 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest 19-Oct-82 Volume 6 : Issue 63 Today's Topics: Administrivia: the last guide had an incorrect subject of issue 61 and should have been 62. The issue number in the text was correct. Dr. Who guide available, Anthony nits, HHGttG, nonviolence & Budrys' MICHAELMAS, satisified with SF Book Club ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 17 Oct 1982 1444-PDT From: Sfl Subject: DR. WHO guide To: sfl Vince Fuller (VAF@CMU-20C) and Gregg Wolff (on a local network) have generously made available for the SF-LOVERS readership a guide to the DR. WHO series. On the Arpanet, the guide is on the SRI-CSL system in DR-WHO.;1. SRI-CSL supports the Anonymous FTP convention. If you want it but cannot get it for some reason, mail a note to us and we'll send you a copy by mail. The same goes for all the guides (Dr. Who, Twilight Zone, Outer Limits, etc.) ------------------------------ Date: Sun Oct 17 23:00:32 1982 From: UCBVAX.decvax!watmath!bstempleton@Berkeley Subject: Anthony and Hitch Hiker's Guide To: sf-lovers@sri-csl Anthony's writing is fairly good as far as holding a reader is concerned, but he has two habits that really annoy me. One, I wish he would stop putting Tarot cards on every paragraph, and two, I wish he were less of a sexist. On the matter of the Guide BBC version, I found out why the episodes are so badly cut. (For those who have not seen, episodes end in the middle of conversations and at other strange and stupid points that don't make any sense, when there is a nice point to end about 54 seconds further down) It turns out only 6 episodes were made in England, and they ranged from 30-40 minutes in length. For American TV they split them up into 7 episodes of exactly 30 minutes (no commercials) and just let the chips fall where they may. Sometimes they did a recap to help you. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Oct 1982 2029-EDT From: TYG at MIT-OZ at MIT-MC Subject: 42 in base 13 To: sfl at SRI-CSL In his interview at Chicon, I asked Adams if he was aware of this. He said he had no idea of it until someone pointed it out to him, and that 42 was chosen since it is an intrinsically funny number, unlike some others. If he had chosen a funny number, such as 17, the point of the joke would have been overshadowed. tom galloway ------------------------------ Date: 19 Oct 1982 0057-EDT From: Joseph M. Newcomer Subject: Nonviolence in SF To: sf-lovers at SRI-CSL Algis Budrys' "Michaelmas" is one of the least violent books I've seen in a while. Although there is a murder, the basic theme of the story is that careful guidance of society has reduced violence to one-on-one violence, rather than mass violence (war). It is also one of the more credible/well written "computer" stories, requiring only a minimum of suspension-of-disbelief to make it work. No cute jargon or other defects which tend to mar computer stories by most writers. joe ------------------------------ Date: 19 Oct 1982 0043-EDT From: Joseph M. Newcomer Subject: SF Book Club To: sf-lovers at SRI-CSL I have been a member of the SF Book club for about 18 years now. In that time they have been totally reliable; I have had no problems with them. Their selection is overall a bit better than the random SF collection found in most bookstores, but they still have turkeys. Given the current price of paperbacks, I'd rather pay a couple dollars more for a club hardback, even if it isn't up to Gregg Press standards (and I have a few of those, too). Mostly, if you are interested in what they are serving generally, take a look in the used hardback section of most good SF bookstores or many used-book bookstores. I've found that a lot of old SFBC books appear here. Every once in a while they offer (not as a regular selection, but as a special) reprints of classic works, e.g., van Vogt, Asimov, etc.; I then look at my tattered and worn paperback edition and shell out the $5 or so for an SFBC edition. A word of warning: their "members prices" do not include shipping or sales tax; in PA, we have to pay sales tax on the shipping so I usually figure adding about $1/book to their advertised price. Like any book club, you have to send back the little piece of paper if you don't want the books offered; I've only blown the deadline a couple times and they accepted the books back and credited me with the full price/postage/tax (some clubs I belonged to would not credit postage!) Bottom line: a good middle-quality hardback service, offering no more turkeys percentagewise than any other selection of SF. joe ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 20-Oct SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 64 *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Oct 1982 2227-PDT From: SFL at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 64 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest 20-Oct-82 Volume 6 : Issue 64 Today's Topics: APRICON V, E.E. Smith's Family D'Alembert, Hogan getting better?, Reviews of Niven/Barnes' DESCENT OF ANANSI, Stallman's THE BEAST, Murphy's THE SHADOW HUNTER ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 17 Oct 1982 2033-EDT From: Kenneth H Lee Subject: APRICON V APRICON V will be held on November 6, 1982. GoHs will be Joan D. Vinge and Jim Frenkel. Noon Til Midnight. Ferris Booth Hall at Columbia University at 115th and Broadway. /Ken ------------------------------ Date: 19 Oct 1982 0953-EDT From: Joseph M. Newcomer Subject: Family D'Alembert I have in my collection the following: Imperial Stars (#1) Stranglers' Moon (#2) The Clockwork Traitor (#3) Getaway World (#4) Appointment at Bloodstar (#5) The Purity Plot (#6) Planet of Treachery (#7) The series is not yet complete as far as plot line. joe ------------------------------ Date: 19 Oct 1982 1027-EDT From: David Dyer-Bennet Rick Schofield -- I think that Hogan has been getting better as a writer with each book. Stylistically, Voyage is probably his best book. However, I enjoyed even his very first one, and some of the details you mention (such as his eye for human detail) have always been present to some extent. I think you should probably read some more Hogan. Tim Shimeall -- Speaking of Dream Park, I recently read Descent of Anansi, also by Niven and Barnes. I was very disappointed with Dream Park. It wasn't a bad D&D story, but it was a lousy Niven book. Descent, however, was quite good. Like Oath of Fealty (Niven & Pournelle), it deals somewhat with the interaction between high-tech people (space colony, arcology) versus the unfortunately-still-existing real world. However, Anansi is more a personal story and less a political/philosophical story. In fact, I could almost call it relatively light, but enjoyable, space adventure with tinges of high politics thrown in. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Oct 82 16:30-PDT From: mclure at SRI-UNIX Subject: landmark list location A couple years ago, there was a poll for landmark SF works which resulted in an excellent reading list. The list is again available, this time on SRI-CSL in SF.LANDMARK. To get a copy, connect to SRI-CSL via FTP, login ANONYMOUSly, and grab the file. If you don't have access, send a note to sf-lovers-request@sri-csl and a copy will be sent to you. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Oct 1982 2157-EDT From: HEDRICK at RUTGERS (Mgr DEC-20s/Dir LCSR Comp Facility) Subject: a couple of new books that are worth reading microreviews: Robert Stallman, The Beast. One of the few truly original books I have read in the last few years. An excellent exploration of an alien being and humanity. Pat Murphy, The Shadow Hunter. Another of this small crop of really original books. Juxtaposes a young Neaderthal shaman with modern society. The plot sounds corny, but is very impressively executed. reviews: I strongly endorse Roland Green's favorable review of Robert Stallman's trilogy (The Orphan, The Captive, and The Beast). He manages to break new ground with each of the books. If you are going to read all of them, you should read the third one last. Each of them is satisfying when taken separately, but there is an element of mystery that the third book resolves. The basic idea is quite intriguing. We have a sort of werebeast whose human form has a separate personality. This is one of the most successful portrayals of an alien race that I have seen. The beast is clearly intelligent, at least as much so as a human. But it thinks differently. It is trapped in the human world, and has to come to grips with these rather puzzling human creatures. But its most complex problem is how to handle the human personalities that it takes on when in human form. In the first two books much of the drama comes from its struggle to deal fairly with these personalities but meet its own needs as well. (Only at the end of the third book do we find out what is really going on. I certainly would never have guessed what the real situation was, but it is quite convincing.) The Beast also spends a significant amount of time with a group of American Indians. It is interesting to compare this book with "Altered States". Both of them reach a high point reached in an Indian ceremony using drugs. To a certain extent the book can also be viewed as an exploration of "altered states". However The Beast is more humane, more realistic and more imaginative. The Shadow Hunter is a book whose basic plot sounds corny, but which in fact is quite impressive. A scientist experimenting with a time machine accidentally brings a young Neanderthal into the 20th Century. (Fortunately he happens to have an appropriate wilderness environment around for him to live in.) There is no way I can say with any authority that the portrayal of the Neanderthal way of life is accurate. How can anyone know? But it is certainly convincing. One feels that this is really what it would be like to live in a world where the bear is a powerful spirit which can either strengthen the hunter who kills it, or destroy him. To a large extent this is Rousseau's "noble savage", and no doubt suffers to a certain extent from rose colored glasses. Like The Beast, it shows someone trying to live in a puzzling environment, doing his duty to the people he comes to love and to his own nature. It is sufficiently realistic that Sam doesn't really succeed at this. He never really comes to grips with the 20th Century, and he is powerless to help his closest friend. But he does live "authentically", as the existentialists would say. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 23-Oct SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 65 *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Oct 1982 2227-PDT From: SFL at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 65 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest 23-Oct-82 Volume 6 : Issue 65 Today's Topics: HHGttG in Washington D.C, Moorcock & music, SF & opera, SF-Lovers as APA, SF book club, Wolfe's THE CASTLE OF THE OTTER, Stallman's THE BEAST, docking in Podkayne, Ellison/Asimov/Wolfe interview, Trumbull's BRAINSTORM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Oct 1982 1835-PDT Sender: LEAVITT at USC-ISI Subject: HHGttG From: Mike Leavitt Will be on WETA (Channel 26) at 8:30 on Thursdays beginning 11/4 in the Washington DC area. It will run for 7 weeks. Each episode will run 30 minutes, so they can all fit on 1 4 hour video cassette. The show is featured in the November issue of THE DIAL (the national public broadcasting magazine). Don't Panic Mike ------------------------------ Date: Wed Oct 20 15:08:55 1982 From: UCBVAX.decvax!cwruecmp!magill@Berkeley The Heavy Metal soundtrack gives credit to Michael Moorcock as cowriter of "Veteran of the Psycic Wars". Does anyone know of other instances of a popular sf/fant. writer working with a popular group? Rich Magill decvax!cwruecmp!magill ------------------------------ Date: 21 Oct 82 19:42:06-EDT (Thu) From: David Axler Subject: SF & Opera, cont'd Recent entries on "Aniara" (including my own) provoked me into checking my files for more info, and into discovering that some "f(r)iend" has stolen my copy of the English translation thereof (now out of print, issued in paper in the Equinox/Avon SF Rediscovery series -- anyone got a spare they want to sell?). Anyway, a check of Peter Nicholl's "Science Fiction Encyclopedia" found the following on p. 383: Martinson, Harry Edmund (1904-78). Swedish author and poet, member of the Swedish Academy, Nobel Prize laureate. A prolific writer, HM's one contribution to sf is "Aniara" (1956; trans. Hugh MacDiarmid and E. Harley Schubert, 1963), a 103-canto epic poem eloquently defending humane values against the inhumanity of technology within the story of the irreversible voyage of a giant spaceship towards outer space. An opera (1959) based on the poem, composed by Karl-Birger Blomdahl, has acheived international success. In the article on "Music", several other sf operas are noted, including: 1) Haydn's 1777 opera "Il Mondo della Luna" 2) Offenbach's adaptation of Verne's "Voyage to the Moon." 3) The Janacek opera "The Makropolous Secret" (1925), based on a play by Capek; 4) Menotti's 1971 opera, "the Globolinks". The same article also deals (a bit haphazardly) with sf in rock'n'roll lyrics. The author is well-informed on the major stuff (e.g., Jefferson Starship's tendencies to "borrow" from Heinlein, Wyndham, and others), but misses a lot of lesser-known sf-related material, such as "A Time Before This", a sf rock opera by the one-album band Julian's Treatment. Ah, well.... ------------------------------ Date: 21 Oct 82 19:29:50-EDT (Thu) From: David Axler Subject: Miscellaneous Comments on Issues 49-63 (which all arrived at once!) 1) Hoffman (in 6:51) mentions the CoEvolution Quarterly note on APAs. In some ways, one could consider SFL as one, with few key differences: there's no limit on the membership, no cost, and no requirement that one must contribute ("minac"). However, the continuing flow of discussion and comments on comments on ... does make us very APA-like. 2) On the Science Fiction Book Club: It's generally a good buy, but you have to remember a number of things, especially that the production values are not nearly as good as "store-bought" editions of the same works -- the paper and the bindings will not last anywhere near as long. The gent who complained about having to pay sales tax should simply move to a state where the club doesn't have one of its mailing depots (PA is especially bad, as SFBC, QPBC, Book of the Month, and others all have factories here), since mail order sales can only charge you tax if they have a plant or outlet in your own state. 3) Another delayed Wolfe book: "The Castle of the Otter" (no, it's not a typo), being published by Ziesing Bros., has been delayed due to typographical problems (they claim that their typesetter just got a new computer...). Now, they expect to be mailing it out in mid-to-late November. For those who are wondering, this is Gene's book about writing about the world in which The Book of the New Sun is set; its title comes from Locus' misprint (due to garble on the phone lines) of the title of the fourth book in the series. 4) Stallman's "The Beast" is, indeed, excellent, but shouldn't be read until you've first read the two that precede it in the series ("The Orphan" and "The Captive"). They're going out of print rapidly, and since Stallman's death a few months back, they may not return to print. Enough for now, Dave ------------------------------ Date: 22 Oct 82 16:37:43-EDT (Fri) From: Ndd.duke at UDel-Relay Subject: docking in Podkayne I don't understand the objection to taking the spin off the ship before docking; how do you unload the ship when it's spinning? Even if you come out along the axis of rotation, the passengers will be spinning wrt the station. Or do you spin up the port to match with the ship and then spin it back down to unload the folks? Seems to me that Heinlein's method is the simplest. Ned ------------------------------ Date: 22-Oct-82 17:25:56-PDT (Fri) From: ucbvax!decvax!minow@ucb-c70 Last night (Thursday, Oct 21), ARTS cable ran an interview program with Studs Terkel and Calvin Trillan talking with Isaac Asimov, Harlan Ellison, and Gene Wolfe. An interesting conversation. Two quotes: "For the first time we have a weapon that nobody has used for thirty years. This gives me great hope for the human race" -- Harlan Ellison Ghandi is dandy, but liquoir is quicker. -- Isaac Asimov. These programs tend to circulate around the clock and country. You might consider looking for it when it comes around again. Martin Minow decvax!minow @ berkeley ------------------------------ Date: 22 Oct 82 13:04-PDT From: mclure at SRI-UNIX Subject: Brainstorm a004 2129 21 Oct 82 PM-Brainstorm,350 Natalie Wood Film Release Reported DURHAM, N.C. (AP) - The movie ''Brainstorm,'' whose completion was delayed by the death of actress Natalie Wood, may be completed and released by next summer, a state official says. A settlement is expected ''very shortly'' in a dispute involving the movie's producer, director and insurance company, Bill Arnold, director of the North Carolina Film Office, said Thursday. The film was shot largely in North Carolina. Arnol said he had been in touch with Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer, the movie's producer, and director Douglas Trumbull. Trumbull believes the studio will settle its dispute with Lloyd's of London, the movie's principal insurer, and complete filming, Arnold said, adding that an announcement might come within two weeks. Principal photography was done in several North Carolina locations last fall. The movie was to be completed on sound stages in California last winter, but was delayed when Miss Wood died in November . MGM, thinking the movie could not be completed without Miss Wood, ceased production and sought to collect $12 million in insurance from Lloyd's. However, the insurer gave Trumbull $3 million to finish the picture, with the scenes rewritten in which Miss Wood would have appeared, officials said. Production resumed in February. A dispute arose between MGM and Trumbull over whether the parties had fulfilled their obligations for the film's completion and MGM took possession of the incomplete film, Arnold said. Twentieth Century Fox and ''several others'' had offered to buy the incomplete film, and because of that interest ''MGM thinks it can make money at the box office,'' he said. ''People were just so impressed with the basic footage,'' Arnold said. ''Everybody said if they ever finished the doggone thing it would be some kind of a classic.'' Arnold said that if the movie is completed, it would probably be released by next summer. The movie is a science-fiction thriller involving a scientist who develops an instrument for reading minds. ap-ny-10-22 0018EDT ********** Date: 20 Oct 1982 1835-PDT Sender: LEAVITT at USC-ISI Subject: HHGttG From: Mike Leavitt Will be on WETA (Channel 26) at 8:30 on Thursdays beginning 11/4 in the Washington DC area. It will run for 7 weeks. Each episode will run 30 minutes, so they can all fit on 1 4 hour video cassette. The show is featured in the November issue of THE DIAL (the national public broadcasting magazine). Don't Panic Mike Date: Wed Oct 20 15:08:55 1982 From: UCBVAX.decvax!cwruecmp!magill@Berkeley id A05547; 20-Oct-82 17:17:11-PDT (Wed) The Heavy Metal soundtrack gives credit to Michael Moorcock as cowriter of "Veteran of the Psycic Wars". Does anyone know of other instances of a popular sf/fant. writer working with a popular group? Rich Magill decvax!cwruecmp!magill Date: 21 Oct 82 19:42:06-EDT (Thu) From: David Axler Subject: SF & Opera, cont'd Recent entries on "Aniara" (including my own) provoked me into checking my files for more info, and into discovering that some "f(r)iend" has stolen my copy of the English translation thereof (now out of print, issued in paper in the Equinox/Avon SF Rediscovery series -- anyone got a spare they want to sell?). Anyway, a check of Peter Nicholl's "Science Fiction Encyclopedia" found the following on p. 383: Martinson, Harry Edmund (1904-78). Swedish author and poet, member of the Swedish Academy, Nobel Prize laureate. A prolific writer, HM's one contribution to sf is "Aniara" (1956; trans. Hugh MacDiarmid and E. Harley Schubert, 1963), a 103-canto epic poem eloquently defending humane values against the inhumanity of technology within the story of the irreversible voyage of a giant spaceship towards outer space. An opera (1959) based on the poem, composed by Karl-Birger Blomdahl, has acheived international success. In the article on "Music", several other sf operas are noted, including: 1) Haydn's 1777 opera "Il Mondo della Luna" 2) Offenbach's adaptation of Verne's "Voyage to the Moon." 3) The Janacek opera "The Makropolous Secret" (1925), based on a play by Capek; 4) Menotti's 1971 opera, "the Globolinks". The same article also deals (a bit haphazardly) with sf in rock'n'roll lyrics. The author is well-informed on the major stuff (e.g., Jefferson Starship's tendencies to "borrow" from Heinlein, Wyndham, and others), but misses a lot of lesser-known sf-related material, such as "A Time Before This", a sf rock opera by the one-album band Julian's Treatment. Ah, well.... Date: 21 Oct 82 19:29:50-EDT (Thu) From: David Axler Subject: Miscellaneous Comments on Issues 49-63 (which all arrived at once!) 1) Hoffman (in 6:51) mentions the CoEvolution Quarterly note on APAs. In some ways, one could consider SFL as one, with few key differences: there's no limit on the membership, no cost, and no requirement that one must contribute ("minac"). However, the continuing flow of discussion and comments on comments on ... does make us very APA-like. 2) On the Science Fiction Book Club: It's generally a good buy, but you have to remember a number of things, especially that the production values are not nearly as good as "store-bought" editions of the same works -- the paper and the bindings will not last anywhere near as long. The gent who complained about having to pay sales tax should simply move to a state where the club doesn't have one of its mailing depots (PA is especially bad, as SFBC, QPBC, Book of the Month, and others all have factories here), since mail order sales can only charge you tax if they have a plant or outlet in your own state. 3) Another delayed Wolfe book: "The Castle of the Otter" (no, it's not a typo), being published by Ziesing Bros., has been delayed due to typographical problems (they claim that their typesetter just got a new computer...). Now, they expect to be mailing it out in mid-to-late November. For those who are wondering, this is Gene's book about writing about the world in which The Book of the New Sun is set; its title comes from Locus' misprint (due to garble on the phone lines) of the title of the fourth book in the series. 4) Stallman's "The Beast" is, indeed, excellent, but shouldn't be read until you've first read the two that precede it in the series ("The Orphan" and "The Captive"). They're going out of print rapidly, and since Stallman's death a few months back, they may not return to print. Enough for now, Dave Date: 22 Oct 82 13:04-PDT From: mclure at SRI-UNIX Subject: Brainstorm a004 2129 21 Oct 82 PM-Brainstorm,350 Natalie Wood Film Release Reported DURHAM, N.C. (AP) - The movie ''Brainstorm,'' whose completion was delayed by the death of actress Natalie Wood, may be completed and released by next summer, a state official says. A settlement is expected ''very shortly'' in a dispute involving the movie's producer, director and insurance company, Bill Arnold, director of the North Carolina Film Office, said Thursday. The film was shot largely in North Carolina. Arnol said he had been in touch with Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer, the movie's producer, and director Douglas Trumbull. Trumbull believes the studio will settle its dispute with Lloyd's of London, the movie's principal insurer, and complete filming, Arnold said, adding that an announcement might come within two weeks. Principal photography was done in several North Carolina locations last fall. The movie was to be completed on sound stages in California last winter, but was delayed when Miss Wood died in November . MGM, thinking the movie could not be completed without Miss Wood, ceased production and sought to collect $12 million in insurance from Lloyd's. However, the insurer gave Trumbull $3 million to finish the picture, with the scenes rewritten in which Miss Wood would have appeared, officials said. Production resumed in February. A dispute arose between MGM and Trumbull over whether the parties had fulfilled their obligations for the film's completion and MGM took possession of the incomplete film, Arnold said. Twentieth Century Fox and ''several others'' had offered to buy the incomplete film, and because of that interest ''MGM thinks it can make money at the box office,'' he said. ''People were just so impressed with the basic footage,'' Arnold said. ''Everybody said if they ever finished the doggone thing it would be some kind of a classic.'' Arnold said that if the movie is completed, it would probably be released by next summer. The movie is a science-fiction thriller involving a scientist who develops an instrument for reading minds. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 26-Oct SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 66 *** EOOH *** Date: 26 Oct 1982 2227-PDT From: SFL at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 66 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest 26-Oct-82 Volume 6 : Issue 66 Today's Topics: Authors - Docking in PODKAYNE, Moorcock & music, Bastable Queries - computer-written story, SF opera, DEC WARS, Worm Wars game T.V. - HHGttG in Los Angeles and Chicago Movies - Revenge of the Jedi Misc - Filksongs from Usenet ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 25 Oct 1982 10:49:33-EDT From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX Subject: docking in PODKAYNE My initial argument about the energy inefficiencies of this method is probably irrelevant in view of the fact that the ship somehow has energy to burn (it takes high-speed trajectories between planets, rather than Hohmann orbits), but there is a more important factor: given RAH's description of the first-class passengers, how do you think they would like being weightless for several hours (the time necessary for either boarding or debarking)? Also, most of the [lower]-deck people have kids and many have babies---remember how chaotic it was in the storm shelters when they had to shut down the spin just for a few minutes? Granted, RAH assumes (by my recollection) that Phobos will be effectively zero-gee, although he doesn't deal with (for instance) the difficulty of inspecting the contents of a well-packed suitcase when said contents have no motivation to stay put. I simply don't think he thought this through (or any of the rest of this book, for that matter) very well. I've twice been through the debarkation procedures of a major ocean liner (to which RAH makes many analogies which seem valid to me) and the increase in chaos caused by attempting to do anything in zero-gee in a ship designed for centrifugal gravitation is likely to be immense. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Oct 1982 09:47 EDT From: Heiny.Henr at PARC-MAXC Subject: re: Michael Moorcock Moorcock is the only writer I can think of who is extensively involved in popular music. As well as "Veteran of the Psychic Wars", he has worked with the British group Hawkwind (sometimes called The Hawkwind Orchestra), and may have been a member of a band called Deep Fix. Moorcock wrote a book called "The Time of the Hawklords" around himself and Hawkwind. I don't remember who published it, but the cover art and blurb (like so many) had little relation to the book. (The art consisted mainly a distorted picture of some singers and a spaceship. I don't remember any spaceship in the book.) The central characters are the members of the band, while Moorcock appears in a more peripheral role as The Acid Sorcerer and a member of a band called Deep Fix. References to Hawkwind, besides "The Time of the Hawklords", occur in the Jerry Cornelius series and more obscurely in "The Dancers at the End of Time" series. Jerry Cornelius is a member of band called Deep Fixx or Deep Fix (the first may be a typo) in some of books of the tetralogy. It is described as being much like Pink Floyd. There are also references to Hawkwind and Deep Fix(x) in the movie "The Last Days of Man on Earth", an adaptation of "The Final Programme" made about 1977. Does any one out there know of a book called the Lives and Times of Jerry Cornelius? I have heard rumors, and it was listed in Books in Print for about a year, but whenever I tried to order it, the publisher (I don't recall who) replied that it was not yet published. The most detailed reply I got (mid 1981) was that it would be "published soon". For all you time voyagers out there, there is a new Oswald Bastable book just out. "The Steel Tsar" (DAW, $2.25) puts Bastable in a world where the Bolshevik revolution never occured. Chris Heiny ------------------------------ Date: 26 Oct 1982 1259-PDT From: GUNS at SRI-KL Subject: identification of a "computer written" story cc: guns at SRI-KL A friend is trying to find a story for use in a paper. Can anyone identify the title or author of a fairly recent novel or short story at the end of which is a short computer-generated story. (At least the claim was that it was computer generated.) The story describes the computer's role in society in the first person. James Hogan seemed the obvious possibility, but he could not find it there. Please respond to Guns@sri-kl or to Dave Kolbus at SRI (415-859-2802 or SRI, Room IS207, Menlo Park by "snailmail".) ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 23 October 1982 22:23-EDT From: Mike Blackwell Subject: SF Rock Another good example that I can think of is "2112" by Rush. It's the entire first side of the 2112 LP, and is based on one of Anne Rand's novels (Atlas Shruged, maybe?). Very good. WE HAVE ASSUMED CONTROL... -mike- ------------------------------ Date: 26 Oct 1982 1244-PDT Subject: Search for an old item - Star Wars parody From: WMartin at Office-8 (Will Martin) Back when SW first came out, and SFL had all that discussion on it, someone submitted an item which was a parody of the scene where Princess Leia transmits the Death Star plans to the rebels. It was written with all the data communications jargon and problems we all know and love (koff!); things about parity errors, changing data speeds, etc. Does anyone have that on-line? If so, please mail me a copy. If anyone knows which back issue of SFLovers it was in, I'd appreciate a pointer to the volume & number. Thanks much! Will Martin [There is something called DEC WARS. It is available on SRI-CSL in DECWARS.;1. --ed.] ------------------------------ Date: 24-Oct-82 12:24-PDT From: DAUL at OFFICE Subject: WORM WARS (Computer generated graphics?) Last night I saw a commercial for a new Atari game cartridge call WORM WARS. The animation of the add looked like it was done by the same folks that did TRON. Even in black and white it look very impressive of the TV. Does anyone know who.how this add was done? --Bi<< ------------------------------ Date: 24 Oct 82 23:11:33-PST (Sun) From: Iglesias.UCI at Rand-Relay Subject: HHGttG The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy will be on in the Los Angeles area on channel 28 (KCET) on Saturday at 10pm. The original radio series will be on KCRW 89.9 FM starting Friday November 5 at 930pm. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Oct 1982 16:20:55-EST From: Christopher A Kent Subject: At last, HHGTTG comes to Chicago The first episode of the TV version of the Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy will air on WTTW, Channel 11, this Sunday (Oct 31) at 10PM CST. The time switch happens this weekend, so that makes it 11PM EST for those of us in Indiana who get WTTW by cable (and means that Dr. Who won't be on till Midnite....ugh). Cheers, chris ------------------------------ Date: 26 Oct 1982 1434-EDT From: TYG at MIT-OZ at MIT-MC Subject: Revenge of the Jedi While driving down Memorial Drive a few nights ago, i tuned into the NPR adaptation of Star Wars just in time to hear Obi-Wan tell Luke:: "Revenge is not the way of the Jedi. Sucombing to such base emotions leads to the dark side of the force". Hmmm. tom galloway ------------------------------ Date: 26 Oct 82 14:31:07-EDT (Tue) From: Will Martin (DRXAL-FD) Subject: Filksongs Here are some filksongs from USENET:  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 22-Oct !ixn5c!inuxc!inuxd!aka779 #SF Filksong Collection: No. 1 ofEOOH *** Date: Fri, 22 Oct 82 23:23:49 EST From: esquire!harpo!ihps3!ixn5c!inuxc!inuxd!aka779 Subject: SF Filksong Collection: No. 1 of ? Newsgroups: net.sf-lovers Beginning with this contribution, and depending on the response, I plan to distribute a sampling of the parody songs put on by the Circle of Janus SF Club of Indianapolis, IN. Tonight's selection is from the 1980 play, UP THE CREEK, done in honor of Philip Jose Farmer, the Guest of Honor that year. [To the tune of Camelot] (deleted) --Arlan Andrews, Indy ******  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 24-Oct !ixn5c!inuxc!inuxd!aka779 #SF Filk No. 2 of many... *** EOOH *** Date: Sun, 24 Oct 82 00:04:32 EST From: esquire!cmcl2!floyd!harpo!ihps3!ixn5c!inuxc!inuxd!aka779 Subject: SF Filk No. 2 of many... Newsgroups: net.sf-lovers (deleted) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 28-Oct SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 67 *** EOOH *** Date: 28 Oct 1982 2227-PDT From: SFL at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 67 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest 28-Oct-82 Volume 6 : Issue 67 Today's Topics: Authors - Moorcock & Cornelius & Steel Tsar, Pangborn's A MIRROR FOR OBSERVERS T.V. - Dr. Who in Mass., L.A.? Movies - Revenge not befitting a Jedi? Misc - SF Book club satisfaction, CMU in SF ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 Oct 1982 7:34:43 EDT (Wednesday) From: Andrew Malis Subject: Moorcock's "Jerry Cornelius" I own a copy of Moorcock's "The Lives and Times of Jerry Cornelius." It is a British paperback, published by Quartet Books, 27 Goodge St., London W1P 1FD, dated 1976. It was also published in hardcover by Alison and Busby Ltd. The ISBN is 0 704 31264 6. The book itself is a compilation of Cornelius stories from all sorts of magazines, from Quark to Penthouse, and from other SF anthologies, and were all originally published between 1969 and 1974. It is quite good, and well worth buying if you are a Cornelius fan. Andy ------------------------------ Date: 27 Oct 1982 13:03 PDT From: Fusco.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest Vol 6, #66 "The Cornelius Chronicles" was published over a year ago. I tried to get through it, but found it slow, tedious and dull. It is an enormous volume and the first of Moorcock's works that I attempted to read. Has anyone waded completely through this book, and what did you think? Joe ------------------------------ Date: 27 Oct 1982 1624-MDT From: Evelyn Mathey Subject: MOORCOCK Someone recently mentioned 'The Steel Tsar'. Moorcock fans might be interested to know that one of the current offerings from the Science Fiction Book Club is 'The Nomad of Time' containing: 'The Warlord of the Air', 'The Land Leviathan', and 'The Steel Tsar'. Cost is $5.98 plus handling $1.39. I have recieved extremely good service from sfbc. When I wrote once and told them a book I had ordered was a real stinker and not up to their standards, they sent me a box to return the book in and credited my acount. Pretty good since I had ordered the book. I have also ordered books for friends. I asked if they could mail direct to my friend and bill me for the extra handling. They sent a card to me and my friend confirming the order, mailed direct to her and didn't charge me a cent more than when I ordered the same book for myself - and I'm sure it cost them more in handling since she is not on their mailing list. I have never had any problems with billing etc. One of the things I like is that you send back a piece of paper if you don't want a book. Many book clubs always send the books and you are stuck paying the postage to send back something you don't want. I failed to mention on the 'stinker' book above, they paid postage for the return too. Am I the only person to remember Edgar Pangborn's 'A Mirror for Observers'? I haven't noticed it on anybody's favorites list. While somewhat dated I feel this book was well written and significant to the growth of SF. Any comments? -- Evelyn ------------------------------ Date: 27 Oct 1982 1533-EDT From: Joseph M. Newcomer Subject: CMU in SF December 1982 /Analog/, p. 74, the story "My Christmas on New Hanford" by Thomas R. Dulski: "When I graduated from Carnegie-Mellon I took a job with an engineering company..." This is the first mention I have ever seen in SF of a graduate from CMU as one of the characters (they are usually from Cal Tech or MIT); I don't think I've seen mention of a "Carnegie Tech" person in older SF, although I do recall one comic book in which "Carnegie Tech" is called upon to have its computers form part of some network computing effort. So, by some metric, CMU has "made it" to a new level of recognition. The author,according to the biography on p.82, is a native of Pgh. with a degree in chemistry from Pitt. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Oct 1982 0959-PDT From: Tom Wadlow Subject: Revenge of the Jedi Date: 26 Oct 1982 1434-EDT From: TYG at MIT-OZ at MIT-MC Subject: Revenge of the Jedi While driving down Memorial Drive a few nights ago, i tuned into the NPR adaptation of Star Wars just in time to hear Obi-Wan tell Luke:: "Revenge is not the way of the Jedi. Sucombing to such base emotions leads to the dark side of the force". Hmmm. tom galloway When confronted by this exact question at Octocon (in Santa Rosa CA, just a few miles from the LucasFilm HQ), one of the LucasFilm guys said that he thought the title was especially appropriate with regards to the movie plot. A few other bits of SW trivia (according to the LucasFilm folk): RotJ will be the last SW film for Hamill, Fisher, and Ford (as far as anyone knows, since their next possible roles would be in #7, about 9 years from now) and John Williams will be doing the score for RotJ. His only other comment was that all the loose ends from the first two (the "other" and Luke's Dad and whatever else) will be cleared up in RotJ. --Tom ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 27 October 1982 16:20-PDT From: DOLATA at SUMEX-AIM Subject: Revenge of the Jedi Excellent point! The title 'Revenge of the Jedi' has driven me up a wall ever since I first heard it. UNLESS IT IS THE REVENGE OF THE DARK SIDE, I.E. DARTH VADER WINS!!!! ( I have a sneaking fondness for him ) ------------------------------ Date: 27 Oct 1982 0709-EDT From: Dan Tappan Subject: HGTTG in Massachusetts The first episode of HGTTG is on WGBH (channel 2) Sat 10/30 at 7:30. It's also on somewhat later that night on a couple other public channels. ------------------------------ Date: 27 OCT 1982 2055-EDT From: JDOS at MIT-AI (John Paul McNamee) Subject: Dr. Who Does any station in Los Angeles carry Dr. Who? ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 31-Oct SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 68 *** EOOH *** Date: 31 Oct 1982 2227-PDT From: SFL at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 68 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 31 Oct 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 68 Today's Topics: Authors - Pangborn Movies - Revenge of the Jedi, Star Trek T.V. - One hour TWILIGHT ZONE episodes return to television! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: duntemann.wbst Date: 29-Oct-82 15:03:41 EDT Subject: Pangborn Yes, Evelyn, there are other Pangborn fans out here. My problem is knowing just what to say about him. He is certainly one of the finest American SF writers, but he comes out poorly next to the Heinlein/Niven/Asimov axis because of his concentration on language rather than concept. His partrayal of an America fallen into ignorance rings truer than any other I've seen, even moreso now that I live closer to New England than Chicago. "A Mirror for Observers" is not his best book, and I've done more than a little headscratchjing trying to figure where it fits into the rest of his (usually linked) after-the-fall yarns. Is this THE Abraham? Somehow I doubt it, since I know (from experience) the temptation a writer feels to treat different faces of the same concept in different stories. Much better, I think, is "The Judgement of Eve;" better, perhaops, than "Davy" wehich seems to be everyone else's favorite. I love it beyond comprehemption, as it were. Aside from that, I have no idea what else to say about Edgar Pangborn. I'm very glad someone brought him up, however. --Jeff Duntemann (DUNTEMANN.WBST@PARC-MAXC) ------------------------------ Date: 29 Oct 1982 14:29:55-EDT From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX Subject: appropriateness of RotJ title What was said on the NPR broadcast is irrelevant; Lucas has said repeatedly that he doesn't consider himself bound by anything outside of the films themselves. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Oct 1982 12:40:29-PDT From: CSVAX.upstill@Berkeley Subject: Revenge (?) of the Jedi I hate to invoke bad memories, but wasn't there some concept in high school English class called, oh yes, "irony"?? Since the Jedi are such a Zen-like order, I wouldn't be at all surprised if their version of 'revenge' involved something like playing off the Dark forces in some poetically just way, without any violent intervention at all. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Oct 1982 18:38 PDT From: Wedekind.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Revenge not befitting a Jedi? "Revenge is not the way of the Jedi. Sucombing to such base emotions leads to the dark side of the force". This suggests to me that some Jedi will yield to the urge for revenge and end up in the grip of the dark side of the force. (Just a wild guess). Jerry ------------------------------ Date: 26 Oct 82 17:39:27 EDT (Tue) From: Speaker-To-Animals Subject: ST-TWOK Remember the episode with Sargon, the intelligence in the white sphere? In that one, Spock's mind was transferred into the sphere, then into Nurse Chapel's brain, where she carried it around until they got Spock's body back.) ...phil Clever, however remember that Spock was perfectly cognizant in his old body AFTER touching McCoy. Spock can't be in two places at the same time so he probably did not take up a new residence there. Could the genesis effect have revived Spock's body, even if his consciousness wasn't in it? Maybe, but I somehow can't believe that 'lingering' traces of the effect would magically restore him. I'm surprised the photon torpedo, in which he was entombed, even survived the impact. It should have been vaporized, along with a sizable portion of the planet's surface. Let's face it folks...the man's as dead as the proverbial doornail. But what about Uhura? - Speaker speaker.Umcp-Cs@Udel-Relay ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 29 Oct 1982 23:11-PDT Subject: One hour TWILIGHT ZONE episodes return to television! From: lauren at RAND-UNIX Much to my surprise, WGN-TV (channel 9, Chicago) has apparently begun showing the rare one hour "Twilight Zone" episodes! These shows are all from the fourth season (January - May 1963). While not among the best shows, they *are* unique and are definitely worth watching. As far as I know, one hour episodes have not been shown in any syndication market for many, many years. These TZ episodes seem to be running at 10:30PM Pacific Time on Friday nights. I don't know how long WGN will be running one hour episodes, but they seem to have one hour time slots allocated for at least the next month. WGN is available on many cable systems via RCA SATCOM IIIR. --Lauren-- ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 2-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 69 *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Nov 1982 2227-PDT From: SFL at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 69 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 2 Nov 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 69 Today's Topics: Authors - Moorcock T.V. - HHGttG in Philly, N.Y, Conn, etc. Movies - Star Trek, Jedi Humor - Sub-Ethernet from Digital ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 31 Oct 1982 1745-PST Subject: Moorcock From: Mike Leavitt I have long felt Moorcock to be mostly empty of interesting ideas in his pursuit of his "new wave" ego trips. I surprised myself when I picked up a book of his called \The Swords Trilogy/ recently, and surprised myself even more when I read it all (400 pages) and enjoyed it. It is rather good Swords and Sorcery stuff with a believable hero, an interesting set of quests, and a rather neat tie-up-the-strings ending. It also has a particularly believable bit where Moorcock brings in some heros from previous books to solve a difficult problem. A fine airplane read (The Swords Trilogy, Berkley medallion, 1977, ISBN 0-425-03468-2) Mike ------------------------------ Date: 28 Oct 82 15:39:15-EDT (Thu) From: David Axler Subject: HHGttG @ Phila Philly fans of Zaphod should know that the BBC-TV version will be running on our local PBS affiliate (Channel 12, WHYY-tv), beginning on Tuesday, Nov. 9, at 10:00 P.M. EST, and continuing on Tuesdays (same time, station, &c) thereafter. ------------------------------ Date: 1 Nov 1982 1700-EST From: Margot Subject: Hitch Hiking in NY & Conn Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy starts on Thu, Nov 4, 8:00pm on Channel 13 in New York, repeating on Sunday, 10:30pm. It started on Sat, October 80, 11:00pm on Channel 24/49/65 on Connecticut Public TV. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Nov 1982 0803-PST From: Brent Hailpern Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest Vol 6, #67 HGTTG premiers in New York on Wednesday, Nov. 3 - channel 13 ------------------------------ Date: 1 Nov 1982 2246-PST From: Henry W. Miller Subject: Star Trek, the command console I have come to the conclusion that the command console prefix code feature was added sometime between the M5 incident ("The Ultimate Computer") and "The Wrath of Kahn". I just saw a repeat of "The Doomsday Machine", where Kirk stays on the crippled Constellation until the last second, steering it down the planet eaters throat. If the command console prefix existed at that point in time, they should have been able to steer the ship by remote control. But, then again, that wouldn't be exciting enough. (P.S. That brings up another point. Cmmdr. Decker dies in an attempt to destroy the thing, and his son, Will Decker is "absorbed" by V'ger in "Star Trek: The Motion Picture." What will the next Star Trek movie be? Why, "The Revenge of Mrs. Decker", of course. -HWM ------------------------------ Date: 1 Nov 1982 12:05:32 CST (Monday) From: Mike Meyer Subject: RotJ Obviously, revenge would only be appropriate if the Jedi in question had/was succombed/ing to the dark side of the force. How many Jedi Knights do we know who have this problem? Subject: Review of 2010: Odyessey Two Potential spoiler - though I've tried not to get that detailed. Review of 2010: Odyssey Two NANO-REVIEW: Execllent. "2010" has lived up to its predecessor very well. I admit having more that a few trepidations about a sequel to "2001: A Space Odyssey", feeling that how could any rational follow-up be written to that story's enigmatic ending. Not to worry - Clarke is back in his element with this book. His attention to the details of space travel and spacecraft, without the sometimes excessiveness of "The Fountains of Paradise", help make "2010" a very readable story. There is an inconsistancy between the book and movie versions of "2001", which Clarke acknowledges, choosing the movie version as his base for "2010". This is a reasonable choice, since more people undoubtedly saw the movie than read the book. The story starts several years after the mysterious loss of Discovery at Jupiter. The central character throughout the book is Dr. Heywood Floyd, who lost his job in the scandal that followed the ill-fated Discovery mission. The spaceship that returns to Jupiter (with Dr. Floyd aboard) is a Soviet craft, the Leonov, which finds itself racing a Chinese spacecraft to reach Discovery first. In this volume we learn the fate of Starchild/Bowman, - suffice it to say he is not quite human any more. We also meet creator of HAL - a first class AI hacker if there ever was one. His job is to restart HAL, a process that gets very complicated (I won't spoil it here). Clarke integrates very well all the recently discovered data about the Jovian system. He also has peppered this volume with science-fiction 'in' jokes (such as having the movie 'Alien' in the Leonov's library). In all, a fine book and the sequel that I'm sure many (including myself) thought could not (and probably should not) be done. Well worth reading (maybe not at $14.95 for the hardback, but I could not resist). ------------------------------ Date: 3 Nov 1982 1533-EST From: TYG at MIT-OZ at MIT-MC Subject: Bestsellers This week's Time has Foundation's Edge listed as #3 and Life, the Universe and Everything as #8 on their fiction bestseller list. tom galloway ------------------------------ Date: 3 Nov 1982 0630-PST From: Brent Hailpern Subject: correction and ogre A correction to my previous message: HGTTG will premier in NYC at 8pm, Thursday, Nov. 4 on channel 13. -------------------------- mini review of "Ogre, ogre" by P. Anthony. "Ogre, Ogre" is the fifth book in the Xanth trilogy. For those of you who have not read the previous books, Xanth is a land of fantasy and magic that looks much like Florida. The best known features of the series are (1) the puns - every object in Xanth is magical so "horseflies" are little tiny horses that fly, etc. - and (2) his "low" regard for those of the female persuasion. The new book tells of the exploits of Smash Ogre, son of Crush and the curse fiend. Smash goes to the magicians Humphrey to ask his Question. Ogres are stupid, so Smash doesn't know what question to ask. The magician, whose talent is to know everything, knows the question and sends Smash on a journey to discover the Answer. The book is not as good as the first three in the series. The puns are all there, but he has used up the easy ones in the other books; hence, he is resorting to farther fetched situations to make the puns. Women are portrayed slightly better in this book than in the previous four, but that would not be too hard after characters like "Chameleon" whose beauty cycled monthly from ravishing to ugly and whose IQ was inversely proportional to her looks, and Princess Irene who manages to accidently show all of her anatomy to interested males during hazardous journeys. The one bright point of the book was the incorporations of video games into Xanth. I won't tell you how it is done, but it is a cute idea. ------------------------------ Date: 1 Nov 82 15:19:12 EST (Mon) From: Fred Blonder Subject: Re: ST-TWOK From: Speaker-To-Animals Remember the episode with Sargon, the intelligence in the white sphere? In that one, Spock's mind was transferred into the sphere . . . ...phil Clever, however remember that Spock was perfectly cognizant in his old body AFTER touching McCoy. Spock can't be in two places at the same time . . . - Speaker How do you know that? Maybe he dumped the Vulcan half of his personality into McCoy's subconscious and left his Human half (which he's always been trying to get rid of anyway) in his own body, to be destroyed along with his body. ------------------------------ Date: 3 November 1982 18:31 est From: Schauble.Multics at MIT-MULTICS Subject: Submissions from sub-distribution Date: 2 November 1982 08:36 mst From: Senft.Multics Subject: SW parody Reply-to: PCO-Multics%Senft.Multics -at MIT-Multics cc: Senft.Multics (outgoing.sv) Acknowledge-To: Senft.Multics I got this from the net about two years ago. Unfortunately, i do not recall the issue or date. Shade and Sweet water to you, Scene: The Tatoine (sic) 4, in a restricted zone to pick up the Death Star tapes. An Imperial Cruiser is closing in. Captain Antilles: Princess, we must hurry, the cruiser is closing! Princess Leia: Just a minute I'm getting the settings on the recorder right. Imperial Storm Trooper: This is the destroyer Fubar, you are in restricted zone. Please standby for boarding. Captain Antilles: We are a diplomatic flight. You have no right to detain us. (aside) Hurry! Princess Leia: Now then, they're transmitting at 9600, with no parity, and xmit request. (changes settings). There, that should do it. Rebel: Starting Transmission. Princess Leia: Hang on, I'm getting parity errors on about half the letters. Rebel: What is the parity set to? Princess Leia: It's disabled. Rebel: No It has to be odd. Imperial Storm Trooper: Boarding in two minutes. Princess Leia: There, try again. (Buzzing is heard) Princess Leia: No Good, The line isn't good enough for 9600. Move to 1200. Captain Antilles: We don't have time! Princess Leia: This is of vital importance to the rebel forces. Make time! Captain Antilles: This is a non-military ship. Go Away! Princess Leia: Still Garbled. What program are you using? Rebel: FTP, of course. Princess Leia: FTP?!! I'm using TELENET. Can't you use TELENET too? Rebel: Which version? All I have is 3.2. Princess Leia: Damn, all I have is 2.0..... In space, no one can hear you dump..... ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest *********************** Date: 7 Nov 1982 2227-PDT From: SFL at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6, Issue 71 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 7 Nov 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 71 Today's Topics: SF books - Yurik's RICHARD A. SF authors - Harlan Ellison lecture SF movies - Star Wars parody, Star Trek, Revenge of the Jedi ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 4 Nov 1982 0929-EST From: DAVID.LEWIN Subject: "Richard A." Sol Yurik's latest novel, "Richard A." definitely falls within the science fiction spectrum. Richard A. is a wild-talent phone freak who devises a system to tap conversations on selected phones and then tap automatically the persons called by his subjects. He does this for fun, but unwittingly stumbles across webs of intrigue surrounding the Cuban Missile Crisis (the book is set in the early 60's). Ultimately, he discovers that his role is not so accidental, and he finds himself involved in a millenia-old struggle between two groups manipulating history: a group of Taoists and a group of Kabbalists. Definitely worth reading, though it leaves you a bit paranoid. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Nov 1982 1516-EST From: TYG at MIT-OZ at MIT-MC Subject: Harlan Ellison lecture Ellison will be lecturing on Monday November 29th at the Harvard Law Forum. 8PM, in the Ames Courtroom, Austen Hall, Harvard Law School. It's open to the public, and there will be a charge of at most $2.50, possibly less. tom galloway ------------------------------ Date: 4 Nov 1982 0907-EST From: RG.JMTURN at MIT-OZ Subject: SW Parody That looks suspiciously like something I put on about 1.5 years ago, +/- enhancements along the way. BTW, if Spock really did do a core dump to McCoy, he'd better look out for head crashes... James ------------------------------ Date: 6 Nov 82 14:17:19 EST (Sat) From: Speaker-To-Animals Subject: Re: ST-TWOK Clever, however remember that Spock was perfectly cognizant in his old body AFTER touching McCoy. Spock can't be in two places at the same time . . . - Speaker How do you know that? Maybe he dumped the Vulcan half of his personality into McCoy's subconscious and left his Human half (which he's always been trying to get rid of anyway) in his own body, to be destroyed along with his body. Hey, now that's an elegant solution. Problem is that the Vulcan side that's left over is really not Spock. The internal conflict between the two sides of his personality are what made Spock such an intriguing character. Besides, Spock wasn't in contact with McCoy long enough even for the 'Vulcan Mind Meld', much less a complete seperation and transfer of his consciousness. - Speaker speaker.Umcp-Cs@Udel-Relay ------------------------------ Date: 30 October 1982 03:01-EDT (Saturday) From: Mijjil (Matthew Jody Lecin) Subject: RotJ: anyone besides me think that it means just because the Jedi would not WANT revenge doesn't mean they'll get some anyway? {m} ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 9-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #72 *** EOOH *** Date: Tuesday, November 9, 1982 1:07AM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #72 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 9 Nov 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 72 Today's Topics: SF books - Donaldson's WHITE GOLD WIELDER, Moorcock's "SWORDS" Trilogy SF movies - Star Trek and Spock/McCoy core dumping ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7-Nov-82 12:58:25-PST (Sun) From: research!sjb@Berkeley Subject: White Gold Wielder Does anyone have a projected release date for White Gold Wielder, book three in The Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant? I have heard both December of this year and April, 1983. Also, does anyone know when The One Tree will be out in paperback? ------------------------------ Date: 8 Nov 82 16:28:08-EST (Mon) From: David Axler Subject: Moorcock "Swords" Trilogy Actually, there is a second trilogy which continues the adventures of the major characters. Though not quite as good as the first three, the books ("The Oak and the Ram", "The Bull and the Spear," and "The Sword and the Stallion", though they may not be in that order) are still worth checking out if you liked the first three. ------------------------------ Date: 7 November 1982 05:30-EST (Sunday) From: The One and Only Mijjil {Matthew J Lecin} Subject: ST-TWOK, image dump Spock => McCoy Reply-to: Lecin@Rutgers I would like to believe that if Spock did a core dump into McCoy, and that he successfully seperated his Vulcan logical self, and his human emotional self, and all that was left in the Spock Body was the HUMAN self when he was dying, that he would have told James Tiberius Kirk that he LOVED him, not that he was merely "I am, and always will be, your friend"... Spock had said that earlier, when fully composed in his normal logical state - especially right after his meditation. I think a purely HUMAN Spock would have gone much further... Another note: what about that gorgeous mosasic IDIC we catch a glimpse (or two of) in Spock's cabin? {M} ------------------------------ Date: 7 Nov 82 10:23:21 EST (Sun) From: Andrew Scott Beals Subject: Spock's core dump perhaps one reason that the vulcan mind meld takes so long is that he (spock) has to find out what the mind of the person looks like. he's mind melded with mccoy before, so all he would have to do would be just a quick core dump into an unused portion of mccoy's brain. of course, all of these arguments will probably be resolved when the next st comes out... -andy ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 9-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #73 *** EOOH *** Date: Tuesday, November 9, 1982 10:49PM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #73 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 10 Nov 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 73 Today's Topics: SF books - Moorcock "Swords" Trilogy SF cons - World Fantasy Con SF movies - It Came From Hollywood, Star Trek core dump, The Slime People The Last Unicorn Misc - space rock Humor - the parody strikes back ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 9 Nov 1982 09:01 EST From: Heiny.Henr at PARC-MAXC Subject: Moorcock "Swords" Trilogy, etc. For those of you who are interested.... Corum (the main character of the series) also appears in a not-so-major role in "The Quest for Tanelorn". Portions of "Tanelorn" also appear in "The Sailor on the Seas of Fate", although told from a slightly different viewpoint. Jhary a-Conel (another major character) appears in lots of other books by Moorcock, most notably "The Champion of Garathorm" and "The Quest for Tanelorn", and incidentally in numerous others. The Lords or Law & Chaos (especially Arioch), and the related stuff appear even more often, most prominently in the Elric series and the Castle Brass series. (I don't know why he puts out many thin books rather than one fat one. Do you make more money that way?) Incidental characters (Terhali, Yrkoon, Vadagh in general, etc.) to the Corum series also occur in many other of Moorcock's books. Moorcock has written about 40 books, and those that I have read (~30) are ALL tied together, however tenuously. chris ------------------------------ Date: 9-Nov-82 17:05:00-PST (Tue) From: decvax!minow@Berkeley RE: The One Tree in Paperback (SFL :72) The One Tree is out in British Paperback. At least one Cambridge MA Bookstore (Harvard Books in Harvard Square) had a copy last August. I ought to know; I bought it. Martin Minow decvax!minow @ Berkeley ------------------------------ Date: 9 November 1982 04:24 est From: Schauble.Multics at MIT-MULTICS Subject: World Fantasy Con I am looking for some information on the World Fantasy Con. I would like to talk to the people who were running the last one and the next one (1983) in Chicago. Can anyone out there provide me the names and telephone contact either for those running the convention or for the company and people that sponsor it? ~Paul~ ------------------------------ Date: 9 Nov 1982 12:02:43 CST (Tuesday) From: Mike Meyer Subject: It Came From Hollywood + Mini Review: Hilarious It Came From Hollywood is a salute to the bombs that hollywood has dropped on an unsuspecting (?) public in the past. It consists of clips from some of those movies, interspersed with new (well, not old) material by Cheech & Chong, John Candy, Dan Akroyd, and Gilda Radner. Said people are up to their usual standards. The movie is divided into sections, each section spoofing some notably ridiculus feature of grade D movies - monsters, brains, musicals, and, of course, the Great Ed Wood. Each section starts with the one of the stars (no, mike, be honest - they are commentators - the stars are those old movies) talkng about the subject in general, and then going on to talk about the If you're one of the people who wait around til 2 in the AM to catch The Slime People, this movie is worth seeing. They even provide a list of everything they used cuts from at the end, which can be used as a viewing list. If your tastes haven't degenerated to that point, you can use this as an avoiding list. Plus - there was a preview for an animated movie entitled `The Last Unicorn.' Looks like it could be good. Subject: Space rock I thought of a couple of other space rock tunes. Calling Occupants of Interplanetary Craft -- Carpenters, 1977 "We've been observing your earth, and we'd like to make a contact with you." Come Sail Away -- Styx, 1977 "I thought that they were angels, but much to my surprise, they climbed aboard their starship and headed for the skies." Also there's 2001 (Also Sprach Zarasthura) -- Deodato, 1971(?) and Outa-Space -- Billy Preston, 1972, but those are instrumentals. If you give me enough time, I'm sure I could think of some more. --gregbo ------------------------------ Date: 9 Nov 1982 0850-EST From: Mike First Subject: Spock Core Dump People keep discussing which half of Spock was left in his body to die. Maybe the colloquialism "core dump" is in fact accurate and Spock sent a copy of his mind's essence to McCoy, being able to leave a copy in McCoy and a copy in himself (like a real core dump--the memory is sent to the print spooler without disturbing the original memory in core). So what if they give us the answer in the next ST movie--pointless speculation is one of the true joys in life! --Michael (FIRST@NLM-MCS) ------------------------------ Date: 9 Nov 1982 08:38 EST From: Heiny.Henr at PARC-MAXC Subject: Spock's core dump You don't absolutely have to destroy memory to do a core dump. Spock could simply have done a "Block Move" and copied both halves of his personality into McCoy's brain, leaving the original Spock personality intact. chris ------------------------------ Date: 9 Nov 1982 14:38:47 CST (Tuesday) From: Jeff Bowles Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #72 Re: Spock's core dump Hold! Enough! Desist! I suspect that McCoy probably DOES have part of Spock tucked away in some safe place, and it's probably half human and half vulcan. But please, folks. No more movie reviews for a while. Jeff ps. Can anyone tell me about the next book in the HHGttG series? ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 10 November 1982 01:15-EST From: RG.JMTURN at MIT-MC Subject: The parody strikes back After seeing that old SW parody of mine, I couldn't resist. Our friends have solved their serial problems, but they have some slightly more virtual problems now... [The ice planet Hoth is under attack. Luke, aided by Han, is desperately trying to raise rebel HQ for new orders.] Han: Quick! Find out where we shoudl relocate to! Luke: Ok! Hang on... MIT-SW DecSystem 90 The Force is With You Forcex 5.9 There are 15 jobs and the load is 4.65 @obk.luke OBK.LUKE logged in [deleted for security reasons] Last login a long time ago from a galaxy far, far away... You have mail from "Dadykins" @mail To: big-cheese@rebel-hq Subject: Help! Where do we go from here?!! --- Luke ^Z [big-cheese - Message not queued, TCP only in operation] Han: Oh no! The Empire has brought up TCP early! Luke: Ok...maybe I can use CSNet... >To: big-cheese.rebhq@udel-relay [big-cheese - Queued] Han: How long will it take now? Luke: Hmm, with CSNet...better dig in. [Time passes] From XMAILER: Mail to UDEL undeliverable, reason: "Hey man, like the core is flakey. Give us some time to find the bad bits..." Luke: It's worse than I expected... Han: You don't mean? Luke: Yes, USENet... @mail To: harpo!chico!physics!a!b!decvax!tatoine!hoth!rebel!base!exclaimation@berkley Subject: Send flowers to... Help! Get us out of here. Han: I just got a report... Evil empire high school students are playing Rogue on every Unix in the galaxy, our mail will never get through... Luke: One other hope...er, wrong choice of words... @MCP Yes? Send message To? Rebel Base HQ Text Help! We need reinforcements! Sending Query estimated delivery time? I send mail 1543 times faster than when you wrote me Han: This ought to get through. ILLEGAL INSTRUCTION: TRON CORE DUMP/MEMORY DISABLE HALT|ILLOP @ Luke: Ben, I need you now! Han: Now where did I put that Telex? [Suddenly, words start appearing on the screen...] @domagic Unix mode entered $ rebel-base < obi wan < helpmessage $ ^D @ Han: Look! Ben acted as a pipe! We're saved. Leia (Who's been offstage dialing the modem...): Hi there, this is my token appearence, bye! Ben (Dim, offstage): Never underestimate the power of the farce. Moral: Old Jedi don't die, they just get a NICE 20 (Author's note: I left out a whole bit I could have done dealing with Yoda trying to send stuff and RFC733 (*sigh*) not being able to understand reverse-polish addresses.) MIT-OZ, RG.JMTURN at I am ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 10-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #74 *** EOOH *** Date: Wednesday, November 10, 1982 11:29PM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #74 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 11 Nov 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 74 Today's Topics: Administrivia - sf lovers back issues needed authors - Moorcock books - The Last Unicorn, The One Tree, Richard A. misc - Space rock movies - Jedi ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 Nov 1982 2259-PST From: SFL at SRI-CSL Subject: sf lovers back issues We are missing the following issues: volume 3 #104-120 inclusive. Does anyone have them? ------------------------------ Date: 10 Nov 1982 1653-PST From: Barry Eynon Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #73 Random notes: On Moorcock: "Jhary a-Conel" seems to me to be another alias for the omnipresent Jerry Cornelius, further demonstrating the many links between all of Moorcock's works. I've read some comments by Moorcock on the metastructure of his writing, but I can't remember where. As I remember it, the Law/Chaos conflict which is the basis for the Elric stories extends across all of time and probably through several realities. Many of the characters in his stories are embodiments of recurring archetypes which are aligned in various ways vis-a-vis the conflict. I think this underlying thematic structure to Moorcock's work makes it very interesting, but a bit difficult till you begin to see the larger picture. On HhGTtG: I picked up "Life, the Universe, and Everything" as soon as I saw it. It's pretty good, but I don't feel it's up to the level of the earlier works. I would have liked for more of the original questions to have been dealt with. In particular, in the beginning of the first book , and the radio show, it is implied that Arthur was one of the people responsible for creating the Guide itself, but this is never taken further. Perhaps even more books/series are planned? -Barry Eynon ------------------------------ Date: 10 Nov 1982 0904-MST From: Evelyn Mathey Subject: THE LAST UNICORN This is a beautifully animated version of Peter S. Beagle's book. Nearly all of the staff (judging by the names in the credits) seem to be Japanese. This has affected the animation style. The whole movie has the delicate beauty that I associate wih Japanese art. That is not to say it lacks strength where needed - the red bull is everything he should be! Beagle himself was involved in the production and it is an accurate portrayal, even manageing to catch most of the subtle emotional tones as well as the more obvious ones. If you liked the book, I predict you will love the movie. If you have never read the book, I recomend the movie. But beware - it is not a childern's fairy tale, but an emotional (as opposed to intellectual) story of an immortal being, normally removed from the world and emotions of man, learning to to feel, to love, and to regret. --- Evelyn. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Nov 1982 2148-EST From: Reed B. Powell Subject: The One Tree in paperback There ae paperback copies of this being printed and distributed (like you wouldn't believe - every bookstore on every corner has huge displays) in Australia. I contacted Zeising Brothers in willimantic CT (phone 203-423-5836) upon return, and they informed me that they had aquired some copies of that edition. You might try contacting them. The publisher in GB is Fontana Books -reed ------------------------------ Date: 10 November 1982 23:37-EST From: Ken Harrenstien Subject: Richard A. This is not science fiction. It is spy-novel fiction that verges on a few interesting assumptions but it is extremely unbelieveable, boring, and disappointing. "Death Beam" is of the same "mainstream" ilk but at least was slightly more believeable and entertaining. I didn't consider that to be SF either. So as not to be totally negative: has anyone else seen the first novel of what is advertised as the "Roderick the Robot" trilogy? I was expecting a pretty hokey story but it actually seems to be written by someone (Sladek) who knows enough about AI to convince you to go along for the ride... and he certainly hits on a lot of painful childhood memories! I think a lot of people on this list would find it worthwhile. --Ken ------------------------------ Date: 10 Nov 1982 09:00 EST From: Heiny.Henr at PARC-MAXC Subject: Space rock More space rock (all by Pink Floyd) : "Astronomy Domine", "Interstellar Overdrive" and "Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun", plus one other whose name I don't recall. All are from ~ 1967-68. chris ------------------------------ Date: 10 Nov 1982 0910-EST From: Mike First Subject: Space Rock You'll note that with the exception of David Bowie's "A Space Oddity" the previously mentioned songs are all awful! One song that was left off is the original space-age classic "Telstar", an instrumental piece done in the late 50's/early 60's that was written to celebrate the beginning of America's entry in the space age. I think it was by the Ventures but I may be wrong--anybody else know? Other SF songs: 1) In the Year 2525 - Zager and Evans, 1969 2) The War of the Worlds--this is an interesting rock version of the HG Wells story that was released in 1978 as a two record set on Columbia with many famous rock stars contributing. One hears its rarely on the radio except on Halloween when its "chic" to play it (kindof like playing the Doors "Riders on the Storm" on a rainy afternoon--REAL PROGRESSIVE ROCK!) 3) Time Warp - Rocky Horror Soundtrack 4) Phasers on Stun- FM (a Canadian group that was popular circa 1980) 5) 10,000 Light Years From Home - The Rolling Stones (an early classic) (or is it 20,000) 6) Get Em Out By Friday - Genesis from the LP "Foxtrot", concerns genetic engineering for nefarious purposes 7) Starship Trooper - Yes Any more? ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 10 Nov 1982 20:17-PST Subject: More on revenge... From: Paul Asente I think that all this discussion about revenge befitting (or not) a Jedi is all part of a plot by Lucasfilms to keep us from discovering the real name of the next film. Once "The Revenge of the Jetsons" comes out, the smokescreen will become apparent for what it is: why shouldn't the Jetsons get revenge? After all those years George worked faithfully for Spaceley's Sprockets and never got a promotion, something was bound to happen... -paul ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 11-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #75 *** EOOH *** Date: Thursday, November 11, 1982 11:49PM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #75 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 12 Nov 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 75 Today's Topics: Books - Hitchhiker's Guide authorship SF related music and musical comedy ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 11 Nov 1982 1909-PST From: Barry Eynon Subject: Hitchhiker's Guide authorship B. J. Herbison (Herbison-BJ@Yale) queried me on my statement that it is indicated in HhGttG that Arthur Dent is involved with the creation of the Guide. A bit of research indicates that indeed, such a statement does not appear in the published book. But, since I have the record set (on which more later), I took the liberty of transcribing the following from the introduction to the first show: "To tell the story of the book, it is best to tell the story of some of the minds behind it. A human from the planet earth was one of them, though as our story opens, he no more knows his destiny than a tea leaf knows the history of the East India Company. His name is Arthur Dent, he is a six foot tall ape descendant, and someone is trying to drive a bypass through his home..." It is worth noting that the books do indeed differ considerably from the radio show, and unless I am hallucinating, even the order of occurrence of some of the sections is changed. What was even more annoying was to get home with my copies of the (rather expensive) record sets entitled "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" (a two volume set) and "The Restaurant at the End of the Universe" (one LP) to realize they only together contain the first six episodes which were broadcast in the first series. (For the completist, I got my copies at Future Fantasy, in Palo Alto, who I believe had them imported from England. They are copyright 1979 and 1980 from ORIGINAL RECORDS, LTD, London). Anyway, remember.... DON'T PANIC -Barry Eynon ------------------------------ Date: 11 Nov 1982 09:16 EST From: Heiny.Henr at PARC-MAXC Subject: More Space Rock This time from the B52s, on their 'Yellow Album' (1980?) : "Planet Claire" and "There's a Moon in the Sky"; Devo on "Q: Are We Not Men" (1979?) : "Space Junk" and "Jocko Homo" (about evolution); and from the Rocky Horror Picture Show soundtrack : "Super Heroes". chris PS I'm pretty sure the Ventures did "Telstar", or at least a version of it. I think I might even have an LP called "The Ventures Sing 'Telstar'" (or a similar name). ------------------------------ Date: 11 Nov 1982 10:42:54 EST (Thursday) From: Bernie Cosell Subject: Telstar Doen by the Tornadoes. Managed to make #1 in December of 1962. The Tornadoes were never heard from again... /Bernie ------------------------------ Date: 11 Nov 1982 12:50:51-EST From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX Subject: space rock Perhaps the best single example is Freddie Mercury's "In the Year of '39", which is sung from the point-of-view of someone who made a round trip on a relativistic sub-light ship. \\Very// good song. Mercury is evidently a fairly knowledgeable fan of SF; the cover of one of the albums of his group Queen is based on Kelly Freas's first cover for Analog, revised by Freas to show the group instead of a single corpse in the robot's hand. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Nov 1982 10:03 PST From: Fusco.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #74 Here in L.A. the radio stations have been carrying advertising for a book called "Battlefield Earth." Has anyone seen, read, or heard anything about this book. Specifically, is it worth buying and reading?? Joe ------------------------------ Date: 11 Nov 1982 10:06:09-PST From: jef at LBL-UNIX (Jef Poskanzer [rtsg]) Subject: Space Rock I must have missed the original message, so I'm not sure if this one has been mentioned yet: "'39" by Queen, off their "A Night at the Opera" album. It concerns the slings and arrows of relativistic time dialation. Is someone writing these down? I would very much like a consolidated list. --- Jef ------------------------------ Date: 11 Nov 1982 1251-PST From: Lynn Gold Subject: Space comedy, for starters [Note: I'm sending this from work, so I don't have my record collection for reference in front of me] Eight Foot Two, Solid Blue (Has Anybody Seen My Gal?) - Allan Sherman from My Son, The Nut Shine On, Harvey Bloom (Shine On, Harvest Moon) - Allan Sherman, from For Swingin' Livers Only Star Drek - Bobby Pickett and Steven Ferrara (the former did Monster Mash) Yoda (Lola) - Al Yankovich Star Flight - The Congress of Wonders, from Revolting! There's got to be more; this is what I was able to come up with off the top of my head. --Lynn ------------------------------ Date: 11 Nov 1982 1241-PST From: Lynn Gold Subject: Space Rock Some more: "(I Want to Be a) Spaceman" - Harry Niilson, from the lp "Son of Schmiilson" "Space Oddity - David Bowie, from ChangesOne (?) Some which I can't remember the artists on (I may have a chance to look them up later, but): "One-Eyed, One-Armed Flying Purple People Eater" "Martian Hop" --Lynn ------------------------------ Date: 11 Nov 1982 1619-PST From: Bob Knight Subject: More space rock... Rocket Man - Elton John, from Honky Chateau. Poor man's Space Oddity. Lord of the Rings - Bo Hanssen, a Swedish keyboard player (ca. 1970, and, I believe, rare). Blows Against the Empire - Paul Kantner ca. 1970 - whole album concerns ripping off the establishment's starship and tripping (literally and figuratively) around the galaxy. Wooden Ships - on CSN's first album (the Airplane covered it on Volunteers, too). After armageddon... Everything You Know is Wrong - Firesign Theatre. Not really rock, but a don't miss... Hey, Mr. Spaceman - from the Byrds' album Younger than Yesterday (was this penned by Dylan - probably...). Fifth Dimension - Byrds, from the album of the same name. ? - from the Ultravox album Vienna. The last song on the 2nd side has a a futuristic/computerish theme. Don't have the album here, otherwise would have the title. Space Captain - from Barbra Streisand's album Barbra Joan Streisand. Probably a cover. First cut, second side. Journey to the Center of the Earth - Rick Wakeman. If Rick had hired people who could sing, this might even be listenable... I Robot - Alan Parson's Project. It's OK, I supposed. Based on the obvious... ? - Moody Blues, from the album To Our Children's Children Children. The first cut on the first side. Can't remember the name for the life of me, but "Voyager" rings a bell. Intergalactic Touring Band - a collection of British rockers, including Annie Haslam from Renaissance, among others. I haven't listened to this for a long time, so I don't remember much about it. ? - from Camel's second album Mirage. On the second side, there is a brief musical interpretation of some scenes from the Lord of the Rings. Again, the name escapes me. Moonmadness - Camel's fourth album, I believe. Worth it for the cover art alone. Sorry if I've duplicated anyone else's entries ... Bob ------------------------------ Date: 11 Nov 1982 1706-PST From: Bob Knight Subject: More space rock... Forgot these gems... Changeling - from the Simplemind's album Reel to Real Cacophony... I Made Love to ET - from Barnes and Barnes latest effort - also on this is I Made Love to Pacman, etc... As a spinoff from the 2001 movie craze long ago, Columbia released an album entitled "Music from 2001" or somesuch. Eugene Ormandy and Leonard Bernstein were the conductors. The first side was devoted to covers of "Also Sprach Zarathustra" and the like, but the second ide was devoted to at least part of the opera "Aniara", which has been discussed here before, I believe. Very strange and moving piece as I recall. If anyone's interested, I can dig up specifics... Bob ------------------------------ Date: 11 Nov 1982 1710-PST From: Bob Knight Subject: Still more space rock... Sigh...will this never end? Space Baby - from the Tubes' first album...I KNEW they had put out something relevant! Bob ------------------------------ Date: 11 Nov 1982 1723-PST From: Bob Knight Subject: Still more space rock... Spaceman - from Harry Nilsson's (sp?) album, Nilsson Schmilsson - arguably one of his best efforts (certainly one of his funniest)... Bob ------------------------------ Date: 11 Nov 82 16:39:00-EST (Thu) From: J C Patilla Subject: music .na On the subject of "space" and s-f related music: There are really lots of artists and groups who have used s-f and futuristic themes in their work. David Bowie has been one of the classic examples, with his personas Ziggy Stardust, Major Tom and Thomas Jerome Newton, among others. His sometimes-collaborator Brian Eno has built a major body of work on very futuristic themes. The group King Crimson and their founder Robert Fripp, have done much the same. British New Waver Gary Newman claims to have been influenced by Philip K. Dick - check out his albums made with the Tubeway Army, especially "Are Friends Electric ?". Both Jethro Tull and the Alan Parson's Project have built entire concept albums from (mostly lame and warmed-over) space/future ideas. Rick James, Bootsie Collins and George Clinton funked into space a long time ago ("The Brides of Funkenstein", "The Mother Ship Connection", by Parliament/Funkadelic, etc). More seriously, those who like classical and other "real" futuristic music should listen to some of the compositions of Phillip Glass and Steve Reich. Hard-core classical fans may have already noticed that major portions of the score to "The Empire Strikes Back" were ripped from Mahler's Ninth. Some time ago, someone mention a possible connection between Rush and the work of Ayn Rand. Neil Pert, who does most of the writing for the goup, has apparently read alot of Rand, but unfortunately seems to have gleaned from her work only the notion that "since we're superior, we can lord it over the rest of you". (I just know I'm gonna get flamed for this, and I'll admit right off that while I love rock and roll, I don't like Rush because I think they take themselves too seriously, are horrendously overblown and overproduced and write mush-brained lyrics not unlike the kind of terrrible poetry teenaged girls tend to write). Some people claim that "Stairway to Heaven" is a space (or at least spacey !) song, but I think the claim that it has ritual magic influences is far more likely. Before I close, and before everyone starts screaming, let me mention my "qualifications". I was program director of a college radio for 3 years, and I live with a music writer, which gives me access to a record collection of at least 6000 albums, so I have listened to an enormous variety of music over the years. Those who'd like to carry this discussion further can write to me directly, but all you outraged Rush fans, please hold your fire. either brave or foolhardy, J. Patilla ------------------------------ Date: 11 Nov 1982 1848-PST From: Henry W. Miller Subject: Space Rock One of my favorites is "Third Impression", a space battle ballad on "Brain Salad Surgery" by Emerson, Lake and Palmer. -HWM ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 12-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #76 *** EOOH *** Date: Friday, November 12, 1982 7:10PM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #76 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 13 Nov 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 76 Today's Topics: Administrivia - the complete 10 megabytes of SF-LOVERS Books - L. Ron Hubbard's BATTLEFIELD EARTH T.V. - Hitchhiker records Space Rock ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Nov 82 17:59-PST From: mclure at SRI-UNIX Subject: the complete 10 megabytes of SF-LOVERS The complete SF-LOVERS archives are finally available. Each volume is contained in its own file in the directory on Arpanet site SRI-CSL. The contents are ordered chronologically. The first archive includes a number of messages from the early days before digests and there is much of "historical" interest. At the end of that volume is a long discussion which took place during the Star Wars series craze. Below is a directory listing of the files, volume 1 through volume 6. For those unfamiliar with Tenex/Tops-20, the first number is the number of Tenex disk pages, the second is the number of characters in the file, for checksumming purposes if you FTP the file. SRI-CSL supports the Anonymous FTP convention. Volume 6 is the current volume so it is being incremented daily as new digests come out. ARCHIVE.V1 860 2200759 ARCHIVE.V2 771 1972324 ARCHIVE.V3 741 1895294 ARCHIVE.V4 705 1803432 ARCHIVE.V5 323 824576 ARCHIVE.V6 390 996707 ------------------------------ Date: 12 Nov 1982 0954-PST From: Tom Wadlow At OctoCon (in Santa Rosa CA) the table in the huckster room next to the L5 table (where I was) was occupied by a girl who was selling copies of "Battlefield Earth" by L. Ron Hubbard. And nothing else. She didn't seem to be doing much business......... On a related subject, San Francisco seems to be in the midst of a barrage of television advertising for books on Scientology, also by L. Ron Hubbard. I have seen several commercials for Dianetics and one other commercial for a different book (whose title I have forgotten) also by LRH. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Nov 1982 10:03:47-EST From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX Subject: HHG records Not only does it take 3 lp's to cover the first six episodes (hardly surprising, since they all ran over 25 minutes and some were pushing 30), the records I've seen are missing substantial chunks of each episode (can't quote you chapter and verse, but I know \something/'s missing when each side averages about 22 minutes (per recollection from 2 years ago)). I don't consider the paragraph you quote (which I believe also appears in the first book) something that Adams ever really followed up, outside of Ford Prefect's urging to Arthur to come along with him and help write the latest revision. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Nov 1982 08:44 EST From: Sprague.WBST at PARC-MAXC Subject: Even More Space Rock... Remember the Future - Nektar. A theme album about a telepathic alien who lands on a planet and is threatened by everyone he meets except a blind child... also Recycled by Nektar is another theme album on the SF end of civilization theme. - Mark ------------------------------ Date: 12 Nov 1982 08:43 EST From: Heiny.Henr at PARC-MAXC Subject: Yet more space rock Foriegner : "Starrider" ("Foreigner", 1976?). Kraftwerk, if not exactly into SF-rock, tends to do a lot of hightech stuff, e.g. "ComputerWorld" (?, ?). Rick Wakeman's fourth album (?, 1977) is a fantasy album, but I don't recall the name. chris ------------------------------ Date: 12 Nov 1982 0635-PST From: Zellich at OFFICE-3 (Rich Zellich) Subject: Space Rocks on... I have a cassette album that is all space rock - it appears to be part of a space rock opera or some such thing, because it's titled "Flash Fearless Versus the Zorg Women, Parts 5 & 6". It's from Chrysalis, and one of these days I'll get around to writing them about it, because it's pretty good rock. Contains Side 1: "Trapped" - Elkie Brooks, "I'm Flash" - Alice Cooper, "Country Cooking" - Jim Dandy, "What's Happening" - James Dewar; Side 2: "Space Pirates" - Alice Cooper, "Sacrifice" - Elkie Brooks, "To the Chop" - John Entwhistle, "Supersnatch" - Frankie Miller, "Blast Off" - Jim Dandy, "Trapped" (reprise) - Eddie Jobsen. If anybody knows anything more about this, like what is it and how many parts does it have...I'd appreciate hearing from them. Cheers, Rich ------------------------------ Date: 12 Nov 1982 9:07:21 CST (Friday) From: Mike Meyer Subject: Yet Another Space Rocker I find it hard to believe, that with all the obscure stuff that got mentioned, that nobody noted "The Lord of the Rings" by Styx. Ths is more about the books than about what the books are about, but... If someboyd out there is thinking about making a consolidated list, I'd like to see a copy. Subject: A couple more space rock A lot of the stuff from Jeferson Airplane was SF. One in particular was a song called "Crown of Creation", the lyrics of which were direct quotes from Wyndim's(sp) novel "Rebirth". They did this without a credit on the record, I might add. The Blue Oyster Cult has an occasional fling into SF, such "E.T.I. -- Extra Terestreal Intellegence" on the Agents of Fortune album. /Mike ------------------------------ Date: 12 Nov 1982 1102-MST From: Pendleton at UTAH-20 (Bob Pendleton) Subject: Space Rock Lets not forget "Intergalactic Laxative" from Donovan's Cosmic Wheels LP. An upbeat song about two of the least talked about problems of the early space program. Yours in Murphy Bob Pendleton ------------------------------ Date: 12 Nov 1982 1416-EST From: Bob Krovetz Subject: more space rock The Fabulous Poodles did a funny song entitled "The Bionic Man" ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 12 Nov 1982 13:19-PST Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #75: Space rock music From: chris at RAND-UNIX I'm not certain if you want to consider music written within an sf environment, but the list of space songs ought to include "Beyond Antares", performed by Lt. Uhura to cheer up Riley in the Star Trek episode "The Conscience of the King". There are also the nonvocal (and in my opinion absolutely awful) pieces done in "The Quest for Eden" episode, where Spock and a band of 25th century free spirits have a jam session. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Nov 1982 1703-EST From: Greg Skinner Subject: More space rock Some of the obvious ones we missed! Star Wars Theme/Cantina Band -- Meco (1977) Star Wars/Soundtrack -- London Symphony Orch. (1977) Theme from Close Encounters -- John Williams (1977) -- Meco (1977) Empire Strikes Back -- Meco (1980) Ah!!! Dream Weaver -- Gary Wright (1976) -- "Flying high through the starry skies, maybe to an astral plane ..." Kansas had an album out about 1979 that had an odd looking cover -- it looked like something that might have been related to sci-fi. The album featured People of the Southwind. ------------------------------ Date: 12 November 1982 15:49 mst From: Lippard at M.PCO.LISD.HIS (James J. Lippard) Subject: SF rock Reply-to: Lippard%PCO-Multics at MIT-MULTICS "Children of the Sun" by Billy Thorp, and "Welcome to the Machine" by Pink Floyd. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Nov 1982 2124-EST From: Robert W. Kerns Subject: Space Rock The best example of SF in Rock I can think of is Space Ritual by Hawkwind. This is a two-record very very strange work that I cannot begin to describe. Probably because I'm still puzzling over what the story it's telling is, since it sort of dumps you in the middle of a very strange future universe. Consider: In Case of Sonic Attack, which is sort of a civil-defense lecture which every so often crosses the edge into sheer hysteria (one of the effects of a sonic attack...). You are exhorted, "In case of Sonic Attack, think ONLY of yourself. You cannot help anyone else..." etc. It sounds like they did a bunch of acid, read some heavy SF , and then went and wrote some music and played with sonic effects. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 14-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #77 *** EOOH *** Date: Sunday, November 14, 1982 6:53PM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #77 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 15 Nov 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 77 Today's Topics: Books - Williamson's MANSEED, Zelazny's EYE OF CAT, Miesel's DREAMRIDER Space rock ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14 Nov 82 13:51-PST From: mclure at SRI-UNIX Subject: SF column n114 2320 13 Nov 82 BC-SCIFI-11-14 SCIENCE FICTION By Roland J. Green (c) 1982 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service) Jack Williamson is a grand master of science fiction. He would be one even if the Science Fiction Writers of America hadn't given him their Grand Master Nebula Award. In his 54th year as a published SF writer, his latest book, ''Manseed'' (Del ReyBallantine, $10.95) is a solid story, well told in admirably expressive but spare prose. In the near future, Earth is doomed to destruction from pollution, famine and war. To give humanity a chance of survival, a plan is devised to launch thousands of interstellar ''seedships.'' Each little space-going capsule carries genetic material from which the computer can assemble 40 cloned colonists when the seedship is protected by a Defender robot, controlled by the computer. However, the Defender robots and the colonists are composites of the personalities of the six key people who lent their talents to the building of the seedships on Earth. Each was a highly gifted individual, with an essential skill, but also had complex psychological problems. Wiliamson handles these problems and their consequences both on Earth and on the colony planet with great skill. The novel loses impact only toward the end, as the colonists fight off an invasion from the progeny of another seedship. Unlike the psychological conflicts among the characters, this war is set up and resolved almost too quickly. In ''Eye of Cat'' (TimescapeSimon & Schuster, $13.95), Roger Zelazny returns to the exploration of religion and myth that produced his outstanding early works, such as ''Lord of Light.'' Billy Singer, a Navaho Indian who has made a living tracking alien animals for zoos, is called in to fight off a shape-changing alien assassin. To win, he must enlist the aid of one of his captives, another shape-changer known only as Cat. As the price of his aid, Cat demands the right to hunt Singer to his death across the 22nd century Earth. This hunt is the real heart of the book, as Singer fights not only against Cat but against alienation from both Navaho and white society and against guilt over the death of a woman he loved. Singer does not fight alone; he has the aid of a team of well-sketched telepaths of marvelously diverse habits and dispositions. Good as it is, the book is so short that parts of it, particularly the death of the assassin and the conclusion, seemed scanted. Balancing this is Zelazny's skillful use of Navaho myth and the excellence of the interpolated non-narrative passages. This is always a risky technique in an SF novel, but in Zelazny's hands they add depth to our understanding of the characters, of the Navahos, and of 22nd century Earth. Turning from two veterans to a new writer, we come to Sandra Miesel's first novel, ''Dreamrider'' (AceBerkley, $2.50 paperback). In an Orwellian near-future world where perverted popular psychology takes the place of Big Brother, Ria, a young librarian at the University of Illinois in Champaign-Urbana, begins to have strange dreams. Exploring these dreams leads her into an alternate world, where the human race has been supplanted by intelligent otters, the result of genetic engineering. The portrait of the Orwellian world is a trifle shrill, but the alternate world is convincing and consistent. The two shamans who help the girl understand her situation, Kara the old woman and Lute the otter, are delightful creations, and the whole book shows an intelligent use of historical and mythic materials to create a fantasy story. END nyt-11-14-82 0227est ********** ------------------------------ Date: 13 Nov 1982 0024-EST From: John S. Labovitz Subject: space rock I remember a song called "Martian Boogie" (as in John Lee Hooker style music). Something about a martian landing on earth and learning how to boogie. Great song; I think I heard it on Dr. Demento. Anyone know who did it? John ------------------------------ Date: 13 Nov 1982 (Saturday) 1300-EDT From: SPEAR at Wharton-10 (Daniel Spear) Subject: Who space rock There was project Pete Townshend never got around to completing called "Lifehouse," which was supposed to be an epic of a futuristic Earth. A lot of the stuff from "Who's Next" was originally intended for the Lifehouse project. Also there is a John Entwhistle tune, "905" on "Who are You," which is fun SF. Dan ------------------------------ Date: 13 Nov 1982 1446-PST From: Don Woods Subject: SF in music A lot of the so-called "SF rock" that's been mentioned is pretty marginal. Songs that happen to have space-related titles, or just "high-tech" music, and so forth. If you're looking for real hard-core SF in music, try to find a copy of "The Pentateuch", by Dave Greenslade. This is a double album set that comes inside a bound volume with nearly 50 pages of SF art (by Patrick Woodroffe) and explanatory text. The theme of the book is the discovery by earth of a derelict spacecraft and the subsequent analysis of the ideogrammatic writings found aboard it. Much of the book is the alien's "creation myth", as pieced together from the ideograms. The music on the records is written to evoke images of the creation myth. The artwork is excellent, the creation myth is intriguing, the music matches the story quite well. The book and records typically sell for about $25 if you can find them at all (non-trivial!); I managed to pick it up in Berkeley for $15. The book alone is worth that much, if you like space art. -- Don. ------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: 13 Nov 82 0:00:59-EST (Sat) From: J C Patilla Subject: more spaced-out music First, the piece on the 2001 recordings is "Lux Aeterna" by Gyorgy Ligeti, which is a cantata, a choral work, not an opera. The original soundtrack is still available from MGM. Also, there is no song called "Spaceman" on Nilsson Schmilsson. The so-called B-52's "Yellow Album" is just titled "B-52s". By the way, there has been a whole genre called "space rock" in Europe for some time, including groups like Popol Vuh, Tangerine Dream and Klaus Schulze. Vangelis was once considered to be one of the biggies, as was Jean-Michel Jarre. Keep in mind that most of this is instrumental and almost entirely synthesized. If you like European techno-pop, you'll like Kraftwerk's albums "The Man Machine" and "Computer World". In no particular order: "Flying Saucers Rock'n'Roll", by rockabilly singer Billy Lee Riley on Sun (he nvinced he learned to rock from little green men from Mars) "Spock is Gone" by Spizz Energy "Five Year Mission", Spizzles (same folks, diff name) "Space Invaders", The Pretenders, who in "Precious" refer to Howard the Duck, the duck-shaped alien "caught in a world he never made" "Planet Rock", Afrika Bambaataa and the Soul Sonic Force "Countdown/Blastoff" & "Ride'o'Rocket" from "BLAM" by the Brothers Johnson "Rocket to Russia", the Ramones "Quasar", from "Crossing" by Herbie Hancock "UFO" and "Cosma Shiva" from "Nunsexmonkrock" by Nina Hagen (German nutcase) anything by Sun Ra, including "Satellites are Spinning", "Music of the Spheres", either volume of "The Heliocentric Worlds of Sun Ra" "I Sing the Body Electric" by Weather Report "From the Tea Rooms of Mars to the Hell-holes of Uranus", album by Landscape "Lonely Planet Boy" from the New York Dolls' eponymous debut album "Stairway to the Stars", "ETI", "Workshop of the Telescopes" and "Veteran of the Psychic Wars" from various albums by Blue Oyster Cult "Attack of the Giant Ants" , "Shayla" and "Fade Away and Radiate", by Blondie "Nasty Little Green Men" by Classix Nouveaux Also, "Music from Cosmos", a compilation of pieces played on the PBS series. (billions and billions of notes ?), and "Universe" by Scriabin (symphonic). have fun, J. Patilla 13-No ------------------------------ Date: 13 Nov 1982 1805-PST From: Henry W. Miller Subject: Still More Space Rock Don't forget "After the Gold Rush" by Neil Young. -HWM ------------------------------ Date: 13 November 1982 23:58-EST From: Landon M. Dyer Subject: (yet more) space rock How obscure can you get? Earthrise - Camel, (circa 1976?) Emergency Splashdown - Roger Powell (circa 1980) Albedo 0.31 - Vangelis, in album of same name Lunar Sea - Camel again, in 'Moonmadness' album What about 'Computer rock'? Offhand, I can think of some cuts by Kraftwerk, but nothing else.... -Landon- 1 ------------------------------ Date: 13 Nov 82 14:33:11 EST (Sat) From: Fred Blonder Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #74 From: Fusco.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #74 Has anyone seen, read, or heard anything about BATTLEFIELD EARTH. Joe ------------------------------ I've seen a press release about it. What little I know about the plot is: A race of evil villanous types are running around the galaxy exploiting the natural resources of the planets they discover. (Gads! Could James Watt be one of THEM?) If the planet already has a population which might object to this uncouth behavior, they do whatever they feel is necessary to get them out of the way. The bad guys discover Earth and decimate the population leaving only a few scattered disorganized tribes in desolate locations. The action of the story takes place in the far future after this situation has existed for a few hundred (or is it thousand?) years. The human hero of the story pops up and presumably gives the bad guys a hard time. I've no idea if it's worth reading or not. I haven't seen the book itself. It seems that the publisher is going on an all-out PR blit ------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: 14 Nov 1982 1005-PST Subject: Space Rock From: Mike Leavitt Okay -- you want obscure. "Mister Spaceman" (not "Hey, Mister Spaceman") was on The Holy Modal Rounders first album (1964 or so, details on request). To quote from the album notes: "Mr. Spaceman evolved from a pop tune of late 1962 called "Mr. Bass Man." [Steve] Weber made it up in the summer of 1963 and was too embarrassed about it to sing it for months. Nothing worthwhile comes easy." Mike ------------------------------ Date: 14 Nov 1982 1528-EST From: Tony
  • Subject: SF Rock Another one for the list: Kommetenmelodie I + II - By Kraftwerk on Autobahn Tony Li Rutgers P.S. Could the header of the digest contain a net address please? ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 15-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #78 *** EOOH *** Date: Monday, November 15, 1982 11:27PM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #78 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 16 Nov 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 78 Today's Topics: Administrivia - sizes of SFL volumes and statistics Authors - Moorcock T.V. - HHGttG TV query Movies - HHGttG movie, Star Trek Misc - space rock ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sunday, 14 November 1982 18:19-PST From: KDO at SRI-KL Subject: sizes of SFL volumes Interesting...assuming that each volume covers the same length of time (is this true?) we've been going steadily down in volume since we started, except that V6 is longer then V5, but that's only because V5 is strangely short. Ken [Here are the dates, durations, and disk-pages-submitted-per-day for each volume in the archive: Vol Begin End Months Pages/day 1 15-Sep-79 30-Jun-80 9.5 3 2 1-Jul-80 31-Dec-80 6.0 4.28 3 1-Jan-81 30-Jun-80 6.0 4.1 4 1-Jul-81 31-Dec-81 6.0 3.9 5 1-Jan-82 30-Jun-80 6.0 1.79 6 1-Jul-82 present 4.5 2.9 There was a definite slackening in the first half of '82 which I attribute to poor moderator coverage by the previous moderator. When digests don't come out regularly, people send in less. However, notice that our page rate has picked up in the second half of '82. --Stuart] ------------------------------ Date: 14 Nov 1982 2349-EST From: Stephen R Balzac Subject: Moorcock Most of Moorcock's work is part of one large structure: The Eternal Champion Cycle. It seems to include John Daker, Elric, Corum and Hawkmoon in the mainstream, and numerous others, most notably Jerry Cornelius in slightly less important standing. However, I've always found, in every one of Moorcock's books that I've read, some reference to the Champion Eternal. ------------------------------ Date: 14 November 1982 2335-EST (Sunday) From: Michael.Fryd at CMU-CS-A (C621MF0E) Subject: HHGttG TV querry How many episodes in the TV incarnation of HHGttG that is currently appearing on PBS? Michael Fryd @CMU-10A ------------------------------ Date: 15-Nov-82 08:16:08-PST (Mon) From: npois!pyuxbb!pyuxdd!somewhere!ggr@Berkeley Subject: Another HHGttG (almost) movie rumor The lastest item on HHGttG movies, from the Newark Star-Ledger: Film rights to the runaway bestseller "Life, the Universe and Everything" -- Douglas Adams' latest literary follow-up to his hit "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" -- have been snapped up by Ivan Reitman. Reitman, responsible for such cinema fluff as "Animal House" and "Meatballs," has signed Adams to co-produce and write the film version of his "Life" sci-fi (sic) comedy, and hopes to get the picture through production and into theaters by Christmas of '84. === Guy Riddle == BTL Piscataway === ------------------------------ Date: 14 Nov 1982 2336-EST From: Stephen R Balzac Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #68 On ST:TWOK- Spock was not entombed in a photon torpedo, but in a coffin of some sort. Thus, although the coffin may be expected to vaporize, the planet certainly wouldn't. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Nov 1982 2333-EST From: Stephen R Balzac Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #69 On the subject of console codes: from the way the console codes were used in ST:TWOK, it would appear that it takes a functioning computer on, at least, the recieving ship for it to work. In both the Doomsday Machine and The Ultimate Computer, the recieving computers were either destroyed or not recieving (remember, Khan was expecting a transmission from Kirk. He just got a bit more than he'd asked for). ------------------------------ Date: 15 Nov 82 16:09:55 EST (Mon) From: Fred Blonder Subject: More on Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan I hate to beat a dead horse but: I just saw the movie again this weekend and noticed for the first time, something that no one seems to have mentioned. There's been a lot of dispute as to how much information Spock could have dumped into McCoy's brain in the few seconds he held his hand against McCoy's head. What the movie actually shows is Spock placing his hand against McCoy's head and holding it there for a couple of seconds, but it does NOT show Spock remove his hand. The scene ends with a hard cut to a flashing ``RADIATION'' sign, then another hard cut to Spock entering the disco room. It is not clear that Spock was in contact with McCoy for only the few seconds portrayed in the movie, and since Scotty was unconscious at the time Spock came on the scene, and he woke up just as Spock went through the radiation-proof door, it's consistent with the notion that some time has elapsed since Spock began his mind-meld (or whatever) with McCoy. Of course he didn't have much time because of the impending Genesis detonation, but he might have taken a minute. Another minor point: I noticed on the rear of Reliant's saucer-hull, on either side, what I assume are shuttlecraft bay doors labeled respectively ``1'' and ``2''. You get some good views of these in the dogfight scenes in the nebula. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Nov 82 08:49:35 EST (Sun) From: Andrew Scott Beals Subject: space rock what about the works of Gary Numan? Virtually everything he's done has had a sort of mechanization of the future type theme. (Are `Friends' Electric?, The Machman, Praying To the Aliens, When the Machines Rock, I Nearly Married A Human, The Life Machine, Engineers) There is of course, DEVO (are we not men?). With such ditties as Smart Patrol/Mr. DNA, Space Junk, Gates Of Steel, and Planet Earth. There's the B-52s, with 53 Miles West of Venus, Planet Claire, and There's a Moon In the Sky (Called the Moon). Not much to do with SF, but it's still fun music. Landscape, with their "From the Tea-rooms of Mars . . . To the Hell-holes of Uranus." album. Computer Person, Einstien a go-go, and From the Tea-rooms of Mars . . . to the Hell-holes of Uranus (consisting of "Beguine", "Mambo", and "Tango"). -andy ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 15 November 1982 18:45-EST From: Nivek Subject: SF Rock As Don Woods pointed out many of the space rock items don't seem to fall into a category of SF oriented music. The Techno-pop stuff (Tangerine Dream, Jean-Michel Jarre, Kraftwerk, Vangelis) are neat to listen to but is mostly instrumental, highly synthesized music and not really SF. Some of the Pop stuff (in the Mr. Spaceman vein) are just tunes that seem to have some words and a title that might have something to do with SF. Perhaps narrower catagories such as Techno-pop, or Computer Rock might be used to distinguish some of this music. SF-movie-soundtracks don't seem to fit in this catagory either. (although the Star Trek theme has words written to it.) The SF-music might be defined as music telling a story that we might equate with good written SF, along with good music, whether it be R&R, or classical etc. Lyrics and associated pictures might fill this out even more. Further subdivisions might be SF-humor-music (Allen Sherman Yankovich stuff, I made love to ET etc etc) The best examples given so far seem to be: (both albums and songs) The Pentateuch Dave Greenslade 2112 Rush Cygnus X-1 Rush (2 parts) Rivendell (Lord 'o Rings) Rush Remember the Future Nektor Recycled Nektor Space Ritual Hawkwind In the year 2525 Zager and Evans Veteran of the Psychic Wars Blue Oyster Cult (also used in Heavy Metal Movie) In the year of '39 Queen Welcome to the Machine Pink Floyd (others mentioned) Blows against the Empire Kantner (Jefferson Starship) Space Oddity Bowie Wooden Ships CSN Lord of the Rings Hanssen 3rd impression ELP Starship Trooper Yes Camel I may have missed others mentioned in past sf-lovers, but these seemed to be the "real" SF-music so far. SF-movie-soundtracks, SF-humor, SF-classical, Techno-pop. of course any given song might fit more than one catagory. It just seemed that Mike Blackwell's original message brought out a whole variety of SF inspired music as opposed to the SF-novel-in-a-song kinda music. nivek (dowling@CMUA) ------------------------------ Date: 15 Nov 1982 11:42-EST From: James.Muller at CMU-CS-GANDALF at CMU-CS-A Subject: sf rock I seem to recall that the ``Olias of Sunhillow'' album by (Yes's) Jon Anderson has to do with an interplanetary voyage of some sort, and includes a booklet expanding on the music. ``Starship Trooper'', from ``The Yes Album'' certainly has has an sf title, though I don't know what it is really about. ``Arriving UFO'' from Yes's ``Tormato''. And isn't there something from ``The Court of the Crimson King'' called ``21st Century Schizoid Man''? Also, ``'39'' is by Brian May (Queen's guitarist), not Freddie Mercury. ------------------------------ Date: 13 November 1982 01:23-EST From: Leor Zolman Subject: SF music Klaus Schulze did an album called "Dune", based on the book. The amazing thing about Klaus's albums is they average about 30 minutes per side, all very mellow synthesized pulsating rythms. Look for him in the imports section (BTW, he was with Tangerine Dream for a short time early on in that band's existence.) -leor ------------------------------ Date: 15 Nov 1982 1508-EST From: PERKINS at DEC-MARLBORO Subject: Space Rock, real time The record someone asked about recently (V76) is/was: 1 Eyed, 1 Horned, Flying Purple People Eater I've forgotten who did it (early 60's), but will look it up (after I dust off several stacks or 45s in the back room later tonite. It was one of the early biggies of the time when people like Jerry Lee Lewis and The Big Bopper were doing music that you could understand the words to (the first time!) In keeping with the cross between fantasy and rock... does anyone remember The Adventures of Duckman and Ganders which came out sometime later (like 66 or 7) ???? It was a spoof on the then popular Batman TV show. Yes there really were radio stations that played it, though it never made the TOP 40 like 1e1hFppE. I may have missed it, but has anyone mentioned Major Tom ??? Everyone take your protein pills. -bp- ------------------------------ Date: 15 Nov 1982 08:56 EST From: Heiny.Henr at PARC-MAXC Subject: Son of Space Rock Queen a lot of soundtrack work for the movie "Flash Gordon" (1980?); including "aka Flash" which was a hit for some time. Robert Kearns remarks on Hawkwind : "It sounds like they did a bunch of acid, read some heavy SF, and then went and wrote some music and played with sonic effects." This is what I have been told IS the way they write their music, as well as the way Moorcock writes books. Does anyone out there know for sure? chris ------------------------------ Date: 15 Nov 82 13:02-EST (Mon) From: Steven Gutfreund Subject: Hawkwind I'm glad you bring up Hawkind, while they are not very well known, I think they constitute one of the few groups that is could be characterized as an entirely SF group. In addition to their Space Ritual album: Earth calling, Space is deep, Welcome to the Future, 10 seconds of Forever There is the Hall of the Mountain Grill (it should be bought for the cover alone, a ruined space-craft on a deserted planet) The Psychedelic Warlords (disapear in smoke) D-Rider Web-Weaver (they have several other albums out but I can't recall the names) - Steven Gutfreund ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 17-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #79 *** EOOH *** Date: Wednesday, November 17, 1982 1:15AM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #79 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 17 Nov 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 79 Today's Topics: Authors - L.Ron Hubbard, Moorcock Radio - Star Wars & The Empire Strikes Back Themes - AI in SF Query - does anyone recognize this book? Music - classics, rock, etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 Nov 1982 09:56 PST From: GMeredith.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: SF Lovers remarks re L. Ron Hubbard In light of the hype of L. Ron Hubbard's material and the Church of Scientology at OctoCon and on San Francisco television (SF-LOVERS Digest Volume 6 : Issue 76), it is interesting to note the news item of 11-15-82 regarding Hubbard's son's attempt to obtain legal control of L. Ron's estate. It seems the younger Hubbard believes his father is either dead or incapacitated and that others within the Scientology organization are not behaving themselves. Shades of Howard Hughes. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Nov 1982 1345-PST Subject: SF Radio From: WMartin at Office-8 (Will Martin) In a local "Radio-TV" newspaper column, in a discussion of an upcoming re-run of Star Wars, the following information: "The 'Star Wars' repeats will be followed in February by a similar all-new National Public Radio adaptation of the sequel, 'The Empire Strikes Back'." (The repeats are carried here in St.Louis on KWMU, 90.7 MHz, at 2 PM Saturdays.) Will Martin ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 16 November 1982 18:12-EST From: AGRE at MIT-MC Subject: SF/AI For those who are interested, here is the section on SF from an AI reading list I have just finished. It was prepared with the aid of responses from a SFL query of a few weeks ago. There's no accounting for taste, and I of course don't plan to. Thanks to those who were interested. It is important to keep in mind that AI is very hard and that we haven't yet had one percent of the good ideas that will be required to do a proper job of it. One good way to do this is to sample the relevant science fiction now and again. Start with Hofstadter and Dennett's anthology "The Mind's I" (1981), which has a number of excellent pieces by people like Stanislaw Lem and Jorge Luis Borges. (Although it is advertised as semi-serious it is best regarded as intellectual cotton-candy.) Here is a list of some other things to look at, roughly in order: Robert Heinlein's "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", Stanislaw Lem's "The Cyberiad", Isaac Asimov's "I, Robot" and "The Rest of the Robots", Fred Pohl's "Beyond the Blue Event Horizon", John Varley's "Overdrawn at the Memory Bank", and Vernor Vinge's "True Names". (This last story is rather hard to find; it was published by Dell in #5 of its "Binary Star" series. It has a cult following among computer types.) Douglas B Hofstadter and Daniel C Dennett, eds, The mind's I: Fantasies and reflections on self and soul, Basic Books, 1981 Said reading list should soon be available from the MIT AI Lab (Publications Office, MIT AI Lab, 545 Tech Sq, Cambridge MA 02139) as Working Paper 239, "What to Read: A Biased Guide to AI Literacy for the Beginner" by Philip E Agre. ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 16 Nov 1982 16:03-PST Subject: Does anyone recognise this book? From: Paul Asente Many moons ago, when I was but a sprout in Indiana (Ohio, actually), I read a book about a boy who was given a flask of some liquid that when he rubbed some on his back (or drank some, I don't recall exactly) enabled him to grow wings and fly. I seem to remember that this only worked at night when the moon was out or some such. I have searched the children's sections of libraries and book stores, but haven't been able to find this book since then. Does that plot ring any bells with anyone? Thanks, -paul ------------------------------ Date: 16-Nov-82 13:40:10 PST (Tuesday) From: Haynes at PARC-MAXC Subject: Moorcock and Jerry Cornelius Reply-to: Haynes at PARC-Maxc Most of the Jerry Cornelius work is part of one large structure. It seems to include Jehemia Cohnalius, Jerry Cornelius, Corum Jehalen in the mainstream, and numerous others, most notably Jherek Carnelian in slightly less important standing. However, I've always found, in every one of Moorcock's books that I've read, some reference to Jerry Cornelius. -- Charles (Please excuse the misspellings of some of the names, I'm at work and didn't take the time to look them up) ------------------------------ Date: 16 Nov 82 14:31:37-EST (Tue) From: David Axler Subject: Moorcock Bibliography and Series Those interested in the works of Michael Moorcock will probably want to pick up a copy of a recent bibliography of his works in various media. Entitled "The Tanelorn Archives," it's available from Pandora's Books, Ltd.; Box 1298; Altona, Manitoba; Canada R0G 0B0. Author Richard Bilyeu has care- fully organized Moorcock's works into reasonable categories, including Books, Editorials, Films, Music, Stories, Reviews, Manuscripts, and Letters. Each entry within a section contains the work's title, location within one or more series (if applicable), and a complete publishing history, including sufficient info to identify each edition. When appropriate, data on changes in title, pseudonymous publication, joint authorship, etc. is also included. It also covers fiction and non-fiction works that are clearly influenced by Moorcock, with emphasis on Jerry Cornelius material by other authors. For the benefit of those who've been discussing various Moorcock series in recent issues of SFL, here's a compendium which I derived from the info in Bilyeu's bibliography. There are a lot of intentional overlaps in the various series that Moorcock has written, due (as someone mentioned a few issues ago) to his notion that certain of his characters are actually archetypes who can be examined in varying social milieux, including both fantasy and reality. I. The Dancers at the End of Time series A. An Alien Heat B. The Hollow Lands C. The End of All Songs D. Legends From the End of Time (three novellas) E. The Transformation of Miss Mavis Ming (pub. as The Fireclown in US) II. The Fireclown series A. The Winds of Limbo B. The Transformation of Miss Mavis Ming [see I.E] III. The Karl Glogauer series A. Behold the Man B. Breakfast in the Ruins IV. The Oswald Bastable/Una Persson Series A. Warlord of the Air B. The Land Leviathan C. The Steel Tsar D. The Adventures of Catherine Cornelius and Una Persson in the 20th Century V. The Jerry Cornelius Series A. The Final Programme B. A Cure for Cancer C. The English Assassin D. The Condition of Muzak E. The Cornelius Chronicles [ contains A-D in single edn.] F. The Lives and Times of Jerry Cornelius G. The Entropy Tango H. Byzantium Endures I. The Adventures of Catherine Cornelius... [see IV.D] VI. The Corum series A. The Knight of the Swords B. The Queen of the Swords C. The King of the Swords [vols. A,B, and C are also available in a one-vol. set, The Swords Trilogy] D. The Bull and the Spear E. The Oak and the Ram F. The Sword and the Stallion VII. The Hawkmoon/Count Brass series A. The Jewel in the Skull B. The Mad God's Amulet C. The Sword of the Dawn D. The Runestaff E. Count Brass F. The Champion of Garathorm G. The Quest for Tanelorn VIII. The Erekose Series A. The Eternal Champion B. Phoenix in Obsidian C. The Champion of Garathorm D. The Quest for Tanelorn In addition to the obvious overlap between Erekose and Hawkmoon, there are numerous occasions in the other series when characters overlap. The one series I've left out of the above list is the Elric series. The reason is that it's only available in the "correct" six volumes from English distributors; the American version has some portions scattered into multiple volumes. As it stands in England, the series runs as follows: A. Elric of Melnibone [sometimes titled as The Dreaming City] B. The Sailor on the Seas of Fate C. The Wierd of the White Wolf D. The Sleeping Sorceress [aka The Vanishing Tower] E. The Bane of the Black Sword [parts of which are also in The Singing Citadel, and other parts in The Stealer of Souls] F. Stormbringer The above lists do not cover all of Moorcock's novels, by any means, nor do they deal with some of the specialized adaptations, like the ELRIC comics once put out by Marvel. Check the bibliography for that stuff. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Nov 1982 1105-PST From: Tom Wadlow Subject: Space music During an unexpected layover in Denver, CO (in 1979) because SFO was fogged in, I heard a band called (I think) Starfire. They played a lot of space, and Space Shuttle, oriented music. During the break I asked the lead singer about it, and he claims that in 1977 NASA's PR department paid them to write an album's worth of songs about the Shuttle. Budgets and bureaucrats being what they were, the stuff got recorded but never made into an album and promoted. Which is a pity, because these guys had turned out some really good stuff. --Tom ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 16 November 1982 15:56-EST From: BLIV at MIT-MC Subject: Space Classics... Ok, how about this for "Classical Space Music" : The Planets, by Gustav Holst? Some of the sections sound a lot like stuff from SW... >>> bliv <<< ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 16 November 1982 19:12-EST From: MROSE at MIT-MC Subject: Space Classics... Where do you THINK Williams got most of the inspiration for his theme from SW? Creativity is fine, but sneakily exposing America's youth to great works is better.... mrose ------------------------------ Date: 16 Nov 82 14:43:30-EST (Tue) From: David Axler Subject: Did the Deep Fix really exist? Someone asked in a recent issue whether the band called The Deep Fix[x], referenced in several of Moorcock's novels, really existed. The answer is a definite yes. The group consisted of Moorcock, Steve Gilmore, and Graham Charnock ; the latter also collaborated w/Moorcock on fiction and editing, esp. in the New Worlds period. The group only put out a single album, "The New Worlds' Fair," on the United Artists label in 1975. To my knowledge, it was never released in the US . . . at least, I know I had to get it through an import dealer. The inner sleeve features a listing of Moorcock's various books then in print, and a dedication to "...Catherine, Frank, Jerry, and Mrs. Cornelius of Blenheim Crescent, who are with us in spirit, if not, this time round, in person." The musical content is good, but not great. It shows the influence that his affiliation with Hawkwind had on Moorcock. The lyrics are somewhat sf in nature, though at times they require a knowledge of obscure references to his fictional works to be recognized. Overall, I'd give it a 78, and I don't recall whether or not you can dance to it... Other recorded stuff by Moorcock includes involvement with the English acid-space rock band Hawkwind on their albums "Space Ritual," "Hall of the Mountain Grill", and "Warrior at the Edge of Time", his banjo playing on "Lucky Leif and the Longships," by Hawkwind leader Bob Calvert, and the song "The Great Sun Jester," on Blue Oyster Cult's "Mirrors" album. ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 16 November 1982 21:05-EST From: BLIV at MIT-MC Subject: Space Classics... Hmm...good point! Didn't even think about that... Hope the phenomenon becomes more widespread, though... >>> bliv <<< ------------------------------ Date: 17 November 1982 02:05-EST From: Don M. Matheson Re:More SF-Rock Actually, the song "Calling occupants of interplanetary craft" was written by the group KLAATU, although the carpenters did have the more popular version. Did anyone ever decode the morse code message that was in the background of one of the songs on that album? ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 17-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #80 *** EOOH *** Date: Wednesday, November 17, 1982 9:16PM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #80 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 18 Nov 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 80 Today's Topics: Authors - Moorcock, Micher, Snyder, Hubbard Music - space rock & classics Movies - Star Trek & Spock's coffin ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 17 Nov 1982 13:49 EST Subject: Moorcock and Jerry Cornelius From: Chris Heiny (Heiny.Henr) Other JC/CJ characters include : Jermays the Crooked ("Stormbringer") Lord Jagged of Canaria ("The Dancers at the End of Time") Lord Jagger of Ca? ("An Alien Heat") (I don't remember the rest of his name) Jesus Christ (aka Karl Glogauer in "Behold the Man"). There are a number of others, but they are rather characters, and I'm sure I've forgotten many others. chris ------------------------------ Date: 17 Nov 1982 13:58 EST From: Heiny.Henr at PARC-MAXC Subject: re : Moorcock Bibliography and Series Wow neat! I was working on a list like that myself, but I think I'll stop. There are one or two omissions though : The Bull and the Spear, The Oak and the Ram and The Sword and the Stallion (VI.A,B&C) are/were available in the US as The Chronicles of Corum, published by Ace ~ 1978. Both "correct" and "incorrect" Elric collections have been published in both the US and Britain. The US correct version is/was published by DAW ~1977. The Sleeping Sorceress is called The Vanishing Tower in the US correct series. chris ------------------------------ Date: 17 Nov 1982 1647-EST From: Stephen R Balzac Subject: Moorcock I might also add, for the benefit of those who have not yet read any Moorcock, in particular the Champion Eternal books (Elric, Hawkmoon, John Daker/ Erekose, and Corum) that, while it does not matter where you begin (although the Eternal Champion is a good place) the Castle Brass books, especially The Quest For Tanelorn, should be read last. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Nov 1982 1701-EST From: Stephen R Balzac Subject: Moorcock For those who are into Fantasy Role Playing, there is an excellent adaption of the Elric series out: STORMBRINGER by Chaosium. It's a role playing game set in the Young Kingdoms, and seems very well done. If anyone has questions, just send me mail. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Nov 1982 1647-EST From: Stephen R Balzac Subject: Moorcock I might also add, for the benefit of those who have not yet read any Moorcock, in particular the Champion Eternal books (Elric, Hawkmoon, John Daker/ Erekose, and Corum) that, while it does not matter where you begin (although the Eternal Champion is a good place) the Castle Brass books, especially The Quest For Tanelorn, should be read last. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Nov 1982 1401-PST From: Richard M. King Subject: MICHNER'S SPACE Has anyone read Michner's SPACE? Could they review it? Dick ------------------------------ Date: 17 Nov 1982 1815-EST From: Marla Subject: Flying potions The story about a boy who rubs a cream on his back, grows wings and learns to fly is called 'Black and Blue Magic'. Sorry, I don't remember the author's name. I recently re-read it....it was great when I was younger, and is still good...although the writing is a bit simple, having been done for a simpler age group. ]marla[ Selinger@Rutgers ------------------------------ Date: 17 Nov 1982 1701-PST From: CARROLL at USC-ISIF Subject: Answer to Asente Regarding Paul Asente's inquiry ( V6: issue 79); The book in question is probably " Black and Blue Magic", by Zilpha Keatley Snyder. It is about the adventures of Harry Houdini Marco, a shy and clumsy ( hence the title) adolescent who is given a potion by the strange Mr. Mazeek, a visitor at the Marco boarding house. He rubbed a bit on each shoulder and recited a verse something like... " Wing feather, batleather, hollow bone, Gift of Icarus and Oberon, Dream of the earthbound, spin and flow, Flap and flutter and fan and GO!" There was a similar verse to make the wings go away. I really liked this book, and still have it somewhere at my folks' house ( it must have been okay, for me to remember so much, no?). The young hero has many adventures, as he flies around his hometown San Francisco, twice being mistaken for an angel after perfecting his flying suit ( two old white drapes crossing his chest and back). Anyone remember other good childrens' SF-Fantasy? Steve ( carroll@isif) [The childrens' book that turned me on to SF a number of years ago was The White Mountains Trilogy by Christopher. It would be interesting to find out if other people have a single book that clicked their SF interest. --Stuart] ------------------------------ Date: 17 Nov 1982 1131-EST From: DAVID.LEWIN Subject: T.V. commercials for L.Ron Hubbard While in Washington, DC on business yesterday I was startled to see a commercial for a book by Hubbard--"Self Analysis". Interesting to hear that San Francisco was also being attacked. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Nov 1982 0016-PST From: Lynn Gold Subject: SF-Humor I couldn't find the Purple People eater in my collection, but the Martian Hop was done by a group called the Galaxies. Also, on the "Great White North" album by Bob and Doug McKenzie, there's a cut called "Black Hole" where they use it as a topic for their "show". Also, on "2000 Years with Carl Reiner and Mel Brooks," the space cut is called "The Astronaught." If you want computers, for a start, there's "Automation" by Allan Sherman on "My Son, the Nut," and "The Computer Date" on the Committee's only album, "The Wide Wide World of War" (Robin Williams was a member of The Committee). --Lynn ------------------------------ Date: 16 Nov 1982 2345-PST From: Lynn Gold Subject: "Spaceman" by Nilsson I'm holding the album on my lap. It'son "Son of Schmilsson," and it's the first cut on side two. --Lynn ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 17 November 1982 10:52-EST From: Vince Fuller Subject: Space Classics... I agree about The Planets - the first time I heard parts of it, I kept hearing parts small bits that seemed familiar.... As far as other space classical, I am surprised that no one has yet mentioned Pachelbel's Kanon in D, which was immortalized in (among other places) the first couple of episodes of Cosmos. --vaf ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 17 November 1982 10:56-EST From: Vince Fuller Subject: Space Classics... But I think you are all forgetting the truest example of classical music vis a vis space: the first movement from Bach's "Brandenberg" concerto #2, which was one of the "Sounds of Earth" sent out on board the Voyager spacecraft - a fine example of something beautiful that has been produced on this little rock... --vaf ------------------------------ Date: 17 Nov 82 9:19:19-EST (Wed) From: J C Patilla Subject: hawkwind Re the question about the group Hawkwind, and the methods used in writing their music. You were definitely right about the acid ! In fact, at the time they were associated with Moorcock, the moving force in the group was a fellow named Lemmy (Lemme?) who is probably the most drugged-out nutcase in British rock today. He left the group to form Motorhead (speaking of Sonic Attack...), which is the utter heaviest of heavy metal, something I don't imagine most mild-mannered hackers listen to. After he left, Hawkwind went rather downhill from their already mediocre position and became Hawklords and are apparently still recording (I seem to recall a new release of theirs shipped a few months back). J. Patilla ------------------------------ Date: 17 Nov 82 08:31:48 EST (Wed) From: Andrew Scott Beals Subject: yasrgtif (yet another space rock group that i forgot) What about Rush's 2112 album (or did somebody already mention that?)? It's spaced out, and it's SF. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Nov 82 08:23:08 EST (Wed) From: Andrew Scott Beals Subject: yasdwsr (yet another submission dealing with space rock) well, if you're going to mention Blondie with spacy titles, how 'bout Blondie with spacy lyrics. More specifically `Rapture' off of `Autoamerican' (total mistake. garbage music. "Rapture"'s only redeeming quality is the story line, and that isn't much.) Obscure Kraftwerk: their VERTIGO album, circa 1972. Double album set (import), and the price is out of this world. For just plain spaced out, there's always `Radioactivity', or `Trans-Europe Express' (which has a neat cut called `Showroom Dummies' (which is being used by a local clothing store in its TV advertizing)) ------------------------------ Date: 17 Nov 82 08:27:40 EST (Wed) From: Andrew Scott Beals Subject: spock's coffin . . . was an EMPTY photon-torpedo casing. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 19-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #81 *** EOOH *** Date: Friday, November 19, 1982 12:50AM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #81 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 19 Nov 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 81 Today's Topics: Books - Clarke's 2010: ODYSSEY TWO, Beagle's THE LAST UNICORN & A FINE AND PRIVATE PLACE, Watson's THE GARDEN OF EARTHLY DELIGHTS Authors - Moorcock's names Movies - Star Trek coffin & short story Radio - Dr. Demento Music - space rock ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 17 Nov 82 19:21-EST (Wed) From: Michael Aramini Subject: 2010: Odyssey Two Does anyone know if/when the book 2010 will be available in paperback? ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 18 Nov 1982 08:44-PST Subject: Moorcock's Names Corum e Jhalen Irsei, the name of one of the avatars of the Champion Eternal, is an anagram of Jeremiah Cornelius. This Moorcock guy is obsessed. Mike ------------------------------ Date: 18 Nov 1982 0616-EST From: Robert W. Kerns Subject: BOSCH BASH It's what you can intellectualize but not assimilate on a gut level that scares you shitless; your cells can turn against you, the IRS wants you for a random audit, the sound of sniper fire comes from beyond your peripheral vision. Etc. Dwelling upon it fills you with quaking awe. It's the best fear to use for propaganda: Steel yourselves against-- (deleted) -------------------------------- There, fair trade, review for review. About Bosch: I think it's fair to say that SF art was invented in the 15th century. If you've never seen any of his work, by all means, seek it out. It is truely ASTOUNDING that such visions could be conceived in his day. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Nov 1982 0712-EST From: Robert W. Kerns Subject: Addendum to previous msg. I forgot to mention two points about Heavy Metal that deserve mention: Sex and Violence. I hope this doesn't provoke an overly long discussion about Sex and Violence in SF, but it is a problem with the mag for some people. I do not like violence, and I especially don't like it mixed with sex (sex is a powerful motivator, and the idea of ties between sex and violence is something I find very frightening). Some stories, particularly by some artists combine nudity and violence. I know of some women who object to the magazine because it seems exploitive. I don't believe it is deliberately so, and the nudity is of both sexes, but there are certainly biases and stereo- types present. I don't consider this a reason to not buy and appreciate the artists, however. Almost all the artists are men (this is still true in SF writing, but not that much progress seems to have been made in SF art...), and the biases are theirs, and a reflection of their interests and emotions. Somehow what I find disturbing is not the violence and sex in the mag, but that it seems to slip right in unnoticed in so many novels... Printed words are even more subtle than TV in some ways. I react much more strongly to violence I see in Heavy Metal than either TV or books. Heinlein and Charley's Angels come to mind... However, the only cases of actual SEXUAL violence that I can recall have been directed against Den, Richard Corben's male hero. (Yes, men fantasize about being raped...but don't have to fear it). The stories and artists range from punk-rock/neo-nazi rock fantasies to surrealism to peace-and-love fantasies. Sex is PART of the stories and artwork, as it is part of each of our own internal fantasy life and as violence is part of each of our own stock of hidden fears (sometimes faced and overcome in our fantasies). The stories reflect these according to the artists psyches. But people fantasize about everything under the sun, and I think a suitable balance is usually struck. Does anyone know of women SF artists? I knew a very fine one once, but noone could convince her to submit her work... BTW, the editor of Heavy Metal is a woman. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Nov 82 17:44:39 EST (Wed) From: speaker.umcp-cs at UDel-Relay Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #68 Date: 14 Nov 1982 2336-EST From: Stephen R Balzac Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #68 On ST:TWOK- Spock was not entombed in a photon torpedo, but in a coffin of some sort. Thus, although the coffin may be expected to vaporize, the planet certainly wouldn't. The photon torpedos used earlier in the film, and Spock's coffin were identical. Also, his coffin was loaded into the same firing tube. It is thus reasonable to assume that he was entombed in a photon torpedo casing. Obviously, they would take the inards of the photon torpedo out first. But this isn't the point that was trying to be made. The point is that the coffin, Spock's body, and a hell of a lot of dirt (not the whole planet as implied) are going to be consumed by the impact. In the movie, all survived intact. - Speaker ------------------------------ Date: 18 Nov 1982 0852-PST From: Mike Achenbach Subject: Re: Spock's coffin An empty photon-torpedo casing? I thought Spock was in it. /Mike ------------------------------ Date: 18 Nov 1982 1004-PST From: Henry W. Miller Subject: Worlds Shortest Star Trek Story A friend passed this along to me some years back. Enjoy. "The Logical Thing to do." SAREK: "You're what?" AMANDA: "You heard me." -HWM ------------------------------ Date: 17 Nov 82 19:17-EST (Wed) From: Michael Aramini Subject: Dr. Demento Can anyone tell me information about radio stations that carry the Dr. Demento show that can be heard in Western Massachusetts or Northern New Jersey? ------------------------------ Date: 17 Nov 1982 2201-PST From: Henry W. Miller Subject: Space Rock, continued Not really sure if this one fits, but how about "Eye in the Sky" by the Alan Parsons Project? -HWM ------------------------------ Date: 18 Nov 1982 1002-PST From: Henry W. Miller Subject: Still more Space Rock Neil Diamond's new hit, "Heartline", is based on "E.T." -HWM ------------------------------ Date: 18 November 1982 19:13-EST (Thursday) From: Robert P. Krajewski Subject: SF Music The B52s are one group that have an interest in the trashy aspects of science fiction, in keeping with their early 60's trash aesthetic. This is especially evident in the classic ``Planet Claire'' (``she drove a Plymouth Satellite faster than the speed of light). Don't forget ``There's a Moon in the Sky (Called the Moon)'' and ``53 Miles West Of Venus.'' Back when the Human League were scruffy college-student-looking types (no Joanne Catherall or ``Don't You Want Me''), they were very influenced by SF. (Somebody may correct me on this, the Human League were some alliance in the Flash Gordon serials.) Their album before ``Dare,'' called ``Travelogue,'' had a song entitled ``The Black Hit Of Space,'' which told the story of a song so popular it engulfed the Universe. Kinda ironic, isn't it ? ``Bob'' ------------------------------ Date: 18 Nov 1982 2322-EST From: W. Scott Meeks Subject: more space music Rather than just the Pachelbel from Cosmos, why not considerthe whole Cosmos album (supposedly all of the music used in the TV show) to be examples of clasical sf oriented music. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Nov 1982 0013-EST From: JHENDLER at BBNA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #80 On the subject of an SF/AI reading list: Excuse my biased views, but any AI reading list that doesn't contain "2001" or "When HARLIE was One" is incomplete. As a matter of fact the MIT list looked to be lacking a lot of good stuff. -Jim Hendler Brown University - AI ------------------------------ Date: 18 Nov 1982 2204-PST From: Bob Knight Subject: Computer rock/space rock... Two examples of computer rock quickly come to mind: Misex - Computer Games (from the album of the same name). Ultravox - All Stood Still (from Vienna, mentioned earlier). This song could be a user's lament, from what I can make of the lyrics: "Please remember me, in tapes you might have made" ...as the system comes to a screeching halt... The 2001 album I was thinking of is "Ormandy/Bernstein perform selections from 2001 A Space Odyssey, with the Gregg Smith singers. Added electronic effects by Morton Subotnik." Along with "Music from Blomdahl's opera Aniara, an epic of space flight in 2038 A.D." The entire second side is devoted to a suite from Aniara. I quote from the liner notes: 'Like "2001", "Aniara" is a story of man at the mercy of an electronic brain and of humanity tested in the crucible of the infinite [the liner notes are a bit dramatic - RMK]. Karl-Birger Blohmdahl, (October 19, 1916 - June 17, 1968) created his prophetic opera from the story of a voyage through space in the year 2038. On a ship speeding to Mars are 8,000 people fleeing a dying Earth. The computer fails, and the ship is diverted by a swarm of shooting stars, thus dooming its inhabitants to eternal flight through the universe in a ship of death.' This album was released as Columbia Masterworks MS7176. I doubt that it's still in print, though you never know. Bob ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 19-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #82 *** EOOH *** Date: Friday, November 19, 1982 8:52PM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #82 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 20 Nov 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 82 Today's Topics: Movies - Beagle's THE LAST UNICORN, Star Trek coffin Books - James Michner's SPACE, first books Music - space rock ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Friday, 19 November 1982 23:09-EST From: RG.JMTURN at MIT-MC Subject: The Last Unicorn Microreview: If you liked the book, you'll love the movie... Saw "The Last Unicorn" tonight. I can highly recomend it. First off, it is *highly* faithful to the book (not surprising, since Beagle wrote the screenplay.) When I got home, I checked passages and sure enough, they were exact excerpts. The animation is Japanese, from the Spaceship Yamato crowd, and fairly good. As a result, expect to see the standard wide eyes, and there are standard Japanamation stock characters. Not as gritty as Watership Down, but the story doesn't call for it. The voices are pretty much the way I imagined them, and the butterfly is worth seeing ten times. There are only three songs in the movie (discounting the butterfly), and they were done by America. One is for the opening/closing credits, one is filler, and one is an expanded version of the love song Lir sings to Almathea. The love song is cloying, but so was the original. The other two, and the backgroung music, are of fine quality (as opposed to Charlote's Web...) Unfortunately, this film has gotten distribution exceeded only by Attack of the Killer Tomatoes for its limitations. You may have to hunt to find it, and the theatre may be not the best, but the movie is worth it. I wish I had seen The Secret of NIMH, so I could contrast it, but it is at least on the same level as Watership Down, if not better. If you liked the book, the movie is faithful and well executed. If you haven't read it, go see a fun fantasy movie. James ------------------------------ Date: 19 Nov 82 18:31:01-EST (Fri) From: David Axler Subject: "SPACE" by James Michner Pre-review caveat: I like Michner's novels, in general. They're not the world's greatest writing (in fact, he's easy to imitate), but they tend to be reasonably thorough and well-researched, and are usually a "good read." So, if you don't like his stuff in general, take this review with a grain of salt. Like most of his writing, SPACE is historical and widespread. It takes a group of characters, each of which is intended to represent a position or viewpoint, and sets up a scheme of events in which these characters interact in ways that let the reader see the key issues involved. Unlike earlier Michner books, however, SPACE doesn't deal with a long period of time; essentially, it runs from the Second World War to the present. In many ways, this helps, for it allows him to take more time to write about less time, and provides a lot more detail than usual. It's important to note, I think, that Michner has for several years been a member of NASA's citizen's advisory board. This was certainly a sharp move on NASA's part, because it provoked him into writing on the topic (or, maybe, it was the other way around?). In any case, one has to recognize that, simply because Michner's books are, by definition, best-sellers, anything that he says about space is going to be taken as gospel by much of the American reading public. And, since so many people will read the book, it's likely that there will be an upsurge of interest in an unfortunately ignored field. The characters include several German immigrant scientists (with a guest appearance by Wernher von Braun -- though real people do appear, it's only briefly), a few test pilots who move into the astronaut biz, their wives, and a number of Americans who are involved with space from either a political or manufacturing viewpoint. At times, one feels like it's a sort of puppet play; you know in advance the kinds of arguments that the pro- or anti-space politicos will offer up. But some of the issues and behind-the-scenes battles are of the sort that the public often doesn't recognize as important. To my mind, the crucial one that, to some extent, runs throughout the book, is the debate about whether manned or unmanned space programs are better, and for whom. It's an issue that has numerous ramifications, both politically and scientifically, and Michner covers it in great depth. He also touches several times on the desirability of the links between the space program, industry, and the military, an equally important topic. Curiously, the book ends without a conclusion, with many of the major characters attending a SETI conference in New England. His point, I suspect, is that there are a lot of unresolved issues tied into space research, and that it's once again time for both America and the world to consider them. Overall, I'd recommend the book. It's not perfect, but it does a good job. I should also note that there is some, but not a lot, attention paid to science fiction in the book. In one scene set in the early sixties, one astronaut tells a second how it was reading sf that got him interested. A part of the discussion is a rather accurate critique of the sf of the fifties as being reactionary and sexist. Unfortunately, the sf fan dies in a later lunar trip; his last words are, "Blessed Saint Leibowitz, watch over me." Post-1960 sf receives almost no consideration in the book. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Nov 82 18:40:34-EST (Fri) From: David Axler Subject: My First SF Books I'm not quite sure where I started. I was an early reader (3 1/2), and didn't keep any records of what I read by the time I discovered libraries (5). I suspect my earliest books were from the Lucky Starr series by Paul French (Isaac Asimov) and from the Danny Dunn series. Not to mention, of course, the Tom Swift books, both Senior and Junior. The first real sf I remember reading was one of the 'Mushroom Planet' books, which were great fun. Also, around the same time (age 10), I was having a fight with the local librarian -- I'd just finished "The Hobbit," and wanted to read "The Lord of the Rings," but the latter was shelved as an "adult" book, and I ended up having my mother take it out for me. There was also a lot of fantasy that I remember reading as a kid, esp. stuff by Evelyn Nesbit ("Five Children and It", "The Amulet", etc.), Andre Norton (a truly unsung heroine of sf), the "Borrowers" series [a new one of which just came out!], Edward Eager's books ("Knight's Castle," "Half Magic", and so on). And, like most kids who liked to read, I got the traditional diet of classics like "King Solomon's Mines," "She", Jules Verne and H.G.Wells, Lewis Carroll, and so on. I don't think it would really be possible to say that any one of these "turned me on" to sf. I was a kid in the fifties, when any bright male was (thanks to Sputnik) encouraged to be interested in science. In my teen years, my already well-developed sf interest was encouraged by a friend of the family who had once been married to Judith Merrill, and who passed on many used maga- zines (that I was too dumb to save, alas) and paperbacks. What can definitely be said, though, is that is was sf/fantasy, more than anything else, that turned me on to reading. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Nov 1982 09:58 EST From: Heiny.Henr at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: Spock's coffin From: Andrew Scott Beals Subject: spock's coffin . . . was an EMPTY photon-torpedo casing. From: Mike Achenbach Subject: Re: Spock's coffin An empty photon-torpedo casing? I thought Spock was in it. Of course! They just pretended Spock was in the casing, when really he's in the galley icebox. The Enterprise's next stop will be Gallifree, where Dr Who will supervise the regeneration of Spock's body, after which his personality will be downloaded (uploaded?) from McCoy's brain. chris ------------------------------ Date: 19 Nov 1982 1012-EST From: Stephen R Balzac Subject: Spock's memory dump One effect of Spock's alledgedly dumping his mind into McCoy's head that no one seems to have noticed: McCoy will never get Spock out of his hair. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Nov 82 19:15-EST (Thu) From: Gerald Pocock Subject: more space rock Here are some more songs that were missed. Alien Chase on Arabian Desert -- Al Dimeola Vulcan Worlds -- Return to Forever < Where Have I Known You Before > and of course there is that YES clone Starcastle where on there first album they played such classics as: Stargate,Sunfield,To The Firewind, and the ultimate NOVA < :-) > and of course there was no mention I saw of America's all time favorite band BLACK SABBATH with their classic "Into the Void" from their album "MASTERS OF REALITY" < they are hopefully kidding > and their album "PARANOID" which contained such hits as "Iron Man" and "Electric Funeral". These are definite HEAVY Sci-Fi music although I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. Gerry Pocock Univ. of Mass. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Nov 1982 1518-EST From: Susan L. Felshin Subject: Space Classics... At the last 4th of July concert in Boston, the Boston Pops (John Williams conducting) played several movements of Holst's Planets immediately followed by the Star Wars medley as an encore. This unfortunate (?) combination made the similarities between the two pieces even more obvious than usual, not merely because of the nearly identical themes, but also because of the instrumentation. (Hmmm, I wonder where Williams learned to like french horns....) But what I really wanted to say is that it seems a bit silly to call the Pachelbel Canon, etc. SF music merely because they were used by Cosmos. Are the Barber of Seville and Mendelsohn's Italian Symphony bicycling music because of Breaking Away? Is the chase scene from the William Tell Overture western music because of the Lone Ranger? Does anybody really believe that the Blue Danube Waltz is an SF classic just because of 2001? Each of the above pieces could fit equally well in any number of entirely different contexts (not to mention the original ones). If one is looking for music that just *sounds* science fictiony, a goodly portion of classic music fits the bill : all it needs is the right context. Cheers, Sue F., PaFotSftPoRCD ------------------------------ Date: 19 Nov 82 17:34:31-EST (Fri) From: David Axler Subject: Jefferson Starship interview Those who've been enjoying the "space rock" discussions in recent issues should note the interview in the December issue of "Record" magazine with Paul Kantner and Grace Slick. A few excerpts to whet your appetites . . . RECORD: Leaving aside politics, where might music go? SLICK: There is the machinery, though. A lot of people say that the machines are too cold, but it depends on who's using them. This sounds weird, but there's a tremendous spirit drive or something -- you can damn near make things operate for you. They become animated, almost, spiritually animated. I'm not talking about Jesus, I'm talking about the spirit, just the human spirit. RECORD: So maybe the '80s are about acquiring a healthy relationship with machines. SLICK: Oh, yeah. Get to know your machines, friends. I went to have a checkup, and the doctor didn't do anything. They hook you up to a whole shitload of machines. The machines all said I was okay. "Hey, I'm in good shape--the machines said so!:" So I've got a song. The machines said I'm okay, and I'm real glad about that. . . KANTNER: Why didn't you use that on this album? SLICK: Because it's a high-tech kind of song, and it's not even played by anybody -- it's ALL machinery. KANTNER: There was a novel called The Sheep Look Up, I think, by John Brunner. It was a follow-up to Stand on Zanzibar. . . . Part of the song "I Came Back from the Jaws of the Dragon" deals with that. [and so on...] ------------------------------ Date: 19 Nov 82 18:13:08-EST (Fri) From: David Axler Subject: Space Rock -- general comments I'd like to agree with Don Woods' comment that many of the songs and/or albums getting called "space rock" in recent issues really are not so. Titles that have astronomical tie-ins (like many classical pieces), and songs that sound "spacy" really don't make it as "space rock." (Of course, that doesn't make them any less enjoyable to listen to in whatever mental state one prefers.) The "Purple People Eater" that I recall had four eyes, not one. Around the same time as that song was another real fantasy winner: "Witch Doctor," which, though barely sf/fantasy in content, is still worth remembering for the classic chorus "OOO, EEE, OOO, AH, AH, TING, TANG, WALLA-WALLA BING BANG!" Certainly a foreign language, at best. Here are a few others that, by lyric content, fit my view of sf/fantasy rock: "Uranian Sircus" from The Flock's "Dinosaur Swamp" album. "The White Ship", "The Time Machine", "At the Mountains of Madness", and "Nothing's Boy" (featuring the voice of Ken Nordine), all by H. P. Lovecraft Any number of songs by Jefferson Airplane/Starship, especially the single (also out on a few bootlegs) "Have You Seen the Saucers?" Jethro Tull's 'Songs from the Wood' album is almost totally based on traditional British folklore and Druidic legendry. Their 'StormWatch' album is based on the concept that major problems could arise in an energy-scarce future with Britain dependent on North Sea Oil. On the more recent 'A' album, several songs have future settings, including "Fylingdale Flyer," in which the on-duty radar crew at a major RAF base (Fylingdale Moors, up in Yorkshire) get to see a UFO on their screens. Despite their spacy sound, not that many of Pink Floyd's works are really sf in content. "Welcome to the Machine," which several people have already mentioned, is actually about the aggravation one suffers by being in the rock and roll business (parallel to the Kinks' album 'Lola vs. Powerman and the Money-go-Round' and the old Bonzo Dog Band's stuff on the 'Keynsham' album). The short-lived group "Southwind" did a rock setting of Heinlein/Rhysling's poem, "The Green Hills of Earth," on their one and only album. Before they turned to heavy metal, the Irish folk-rock band Horslips did a lot of work with traditional legend and folktale. The best example from them is the album "The Book of Invasions," which derives its lyrics from the tales of the Tuatha de Danaan. On their double album "U," the Incredible String Band had a piece called the "Robot Blues," which mixes equal doses of sf and comedy. Many of the Bonzo Dog Band albums contain sf stuff, such as the songs "Look Out, There's a Monster Coming" from 'Gorilla', "Humanoid Boogie" and "I'm the Urban Spaceman" (stretching it a bit there, but...) from the 'Urban Spaceman' disk, and the old classic "Monster Mash" on 'Tadpoles'. Urban Spaceman fans should also note the cover version done by Lea Nicholson with bass concertina and spoons on his album 'HorseMusic'. A great sf/country farce song is the love ballad "Angeline," detailing in Nashville style (and British accents) a case of inter-galactic exogamy; this one's on an album titled "He Came From the Mountains," by British folkies Bob and Carole Pegg. Bob Johnson and Peter Knight, while members of Steeleye Span, also put together a rock-opera version of Lord Dunsany's tale, "The King of Elfland's Daughter," starring (among others) Christopher Lee as the King and Mary Hopkin as the Daughter. One of the earliest adaptations of Tolkien's material was "Ring Thing" on the 'Balaclava' album by Pearls Before Swine, which set the poem about the various numbers of rings to music. English blues-rocker Graham Bond has done a great deal of work in which the lyrics have to do with Magick. Worth noting are the albums 'Holy Magick' and 'We Put Our Magick on You.' Another intriguing concept album is 'Beggar Julia's Time Trip', by the Dutch band Ekseption. Essentially, they use the time trip as an excuse to rock up a number of classical pieces, but it's an intriguing conceit. Bob Calvert (of Hawkwind) put together a near-sf concept album called "Captain Lockheed and the Starfighters," which tells the tale of the dangerous and mis-designed planes the Germans bought from the US several years back. He introduces a fantasy element via the "Gremlin," sung by Arthur Brown (the Lord of Hell Fire himself), who is the "real" cause of air accidents. And, of course, who could forget Creedence Clearwater Revival's "It Came Out of the Sky"? Or Donovan's "Season of the Witch"? Last, but far from least, there is the Philip Glass/Robert Wilson opera "Einstein On the Beach." The last scene, by the way, takes place on board a spaceship. There's also a fair amount of spoken word material dealing with sf and fantasy. Nobody's noted Lord Buckley yet, but his re-tellings of the tales of Jesus (especially "The Naz") in jazz terms are worth noting. So are some of the pieces done by Ken Nordine on his 'Word Jazz' albums. A late sixties comedy group called the Congress of Wonders did two things that fit here. "Star Trip" is a Star Trek parody with a few good lines and a lot of stale jokes. "Pigeon Park" is a meeting between two now-elderly members of the Grateful Dead in a drug-ruled future, and is pretty amusing. The best sf-related comedy in the last few decades, though, has got to be that of the Firesign Theatre. "Le Trente-Huit Cunegonde," from their first album ('Waiting for the Electrician, or Someone Like Him') is about a future where the druggies rule, and are almost done wiping out the straights. It draws liberally on the works of William Burroughs for its imagery. Their later album "I Think We're all Bozos on this Bus" is set at a future world's fair, with exhibits that nastily presage the newly-opened Epcot. I think somebody's already noted their totally-sf piece, "Everything You Know is Wrong," which deals with UFOs, Carlos Casteneda, and Evel Knievel; this was also released as a movie, by the way. Their latest sf-related work, "In the Next World, You're On Your Own," is a sequel to "Everything...". It's about four or five years old now, but still holds its own. The various members of the group have also done solo albums, and these, too, are often sf-related. Of the solo stuff, the best are Philip Austin's "Roller Maidens From Outer Space," David Ossman's "How Time Flies" (which is not only sf, but ends with the Earth passing through a black hole, causing it to move back in time to the start of the record), and Proctor and Bergman's "TV or Not TV," about the future when we're all wired. I'm sure there'll be other suggestions from other folks. This is enough from me on this topic. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 21-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #83 *** EOOH *** Date: Sunday, November 21, 1982 10:35PM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #83 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 21 Nov 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 83 Today's Topics: Themes - shrinking Music - space classics Movies - Star Trek ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 November 1982 14:50-EST From: Landon M. Dyer Subject: Shrinking in SF This is a rather transparent attempt to start another discussion. I don't know about you, but I'm a little bit bored with 'space rock' and 'memory dumps into McCoy's brain', and similar subjects. What are the books/short stories/movies that have shrinking or expanding as a central (or maybe not so central) theme? By shrinking, I mean devices or potions that will reduce a person, or another object, substantially in size, while retaining most of the person's or object's characteristics. Needless to say, expansion works the opposite way, even if the size of a 50-foot tall person's feet doesn't follow the cube law. Some titles, just off the top of my head: Fantastic Voyage (Isaac Asimov, both the book and the movie) Danny Dunn and the Smallifying Machine, by ? Cold War in a Country Garden, by ? Attack of the 50-foot Woman (a 50's movie, easily one of the worst I have seen) Land of the Giants (TV series, and spinoff books) The Men Inside, by Barry Malzberg Any others? -Landon- ------------------------------ Date: 20 Nov 82 1:16:06-EST (Sat) From: Michael Muuss Subject: More on Space Classics; INFO-MUSIC ?? Johann Pachelbel's Canon in D Major, while a strikingly beautiful piece of music, hardly seems to be something to title "space classical", except for it's use by various space-related shows (eg, Cosmos). In my opinion, the Musical Heritage Society recording (MHS 1060) is one of the best that can be had; the string players pluck their instruments more than is customary for this piece of music, and it adds a great deal of character to the music. [I understand that MHS actually obtained this recording from RCA some time ago]. Since the subject of classical music in "SF" has been broached, how about Tommaso Albinoni's Adagio in G Minor for Strings and Organ Continuo? It was used most effectively in a "Space: 1999" episode. This peaceful, almost stately, piece of Baroque organ music was used as the background for a long, uneventful space voyage, yielding a very effective portrayal of the tedium of sub-light speed space travel. (I believe that this episode concerned itself with the sole survivor of a previous expedition to a "Sargasso of Space" in the outer Solar System returning to fight the deadly creature that killed his companions by incinerating them in it's stomach...). An acceptable recording of this music can be found on the Turnabout VOX label (TV 34135S, "Baroque Organ Works"). All this talk of Music in SFL lately brings to mind the question of whether the ArpaNet community should try and take the risk of running an Info-Music list (Music-Lovers? ...) somewhere? There is sufficient activity on USENET newsgroups net.music and net.records et.al. that the Arpa community is missing that I would consider an Info-Music list to be a valuable contribution to the suite of lists on the net. I suggest this with the recognition that such a suggestion flys in the face of DCA's rules for use of the ArpaNet. Comments? -Mike ------------------------------ Date: 18 Nov 82 15:50:37 EST (Thu) From: Fred Blonder Subject: Re: Space Classics... From: Vince Fuller I am surprised that no one has yet mentioned Pachelbel's Kanon in D, which was immortalized in the first couple of episodes of Cosmos. --vaf . . . and is also played in the National Air & Space Museum's Langley Theatre before each show. But then, this piece is SF-oriented only by adoption. ------------------------------ (deleted) I'll be interested in seeing what comments Jakubowski's clearly biased views will provoke from SFL readers. To my mind, though he claims to avoid it, he's still falling into the trap of assuming that anything with a "spacy" title or sound must be sf-related, and he's also clearly fond of specific groups as well. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Nov 82 21:46:46 EST (Fri) From: Andrew Scott Beals Subject: Re: Spock's coffin uploaded from mccoy's brain (seems silly w/o capitalization). it was a photon torpedo casing minus the photon torpedo plus spock's body (minus a core dump (just before he died, did his brain have a bus error? (core error, bus dumped! (hee hee)))). oh well. more next-to-pointless speculation. -andy ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 21-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #84 *** EOOH *** Date: Sunday, November 21, 1982 10:41PM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #84 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 22 Nov 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 84 Today's Topics: Movies - Things to Come, Star Trek Authors - L. Ron Hubbard Music - space rock Art - inquiry ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21-Nov-82 17:59-PST From: DAUL at OFFICE Subject: Things To Come (from CINEFANTASTIQUE v13. n2 November 1982) DUNE: Underway Soon Sets are under construction in Mexico for director David Lynch to film Frank Herbert's sf classic. Producer Dino DeLaurentiis has lined up Albert Whitlock to handle matte paintings, Carlo Rambaldi to build the "sand-worms," and Industrial Light & Magic to create a variety of optical effects. The final budget is still sketchy, but may reach $40 million. Revenge Of The Jedi Good mini-article about the 32.5 million dollar epic. It is centered around the monster shop needed for the creation of all the creatures we will see in the film. Main Feature Of This Edition E.T. KRULL The Thing ------------------------------ Date: 21 Nov 82 18:25:53-EST (Sun) From: Gene Spafford Subject: SF Related music This is a bit late, but.. The instrumental "Telstar" was by a group known as the Tornados. The album was released on London records. They had one other minor hit entitled "Riding the Wind" which didn't make it too big. Has anyone bothered to mention the "War of the Worlds" double album that Richard Burton did the narration for? I've seen it out as a half-speed mastered album just recently. ------------------------------ Date: 21 Nov 82 20:00:35 EST (Sun) From: Rene Steiner Subject: space rock, L. Ron Hubbard, etc. Concerning space rock: did anyone mention 'Starlight Dancer' by (I think) Kayak? Also, I think Vangelis is worth noting, especially the piece played on Cosmos. It is 'spacey,' sort of, even if it does have a religious name (Heaven and Earth? Heaven and Hell?) And do you remember that the flying purple people eater wanted to be in a Rock 'n Roll band, and died out because there were no purple people for him to eat? About Battlefield Earth, by L. Ron Hubbard: my brother absolutely RAVED about it, told me it was the most fantastic book ever written, or something like that. Of course, he is a Scientology fanatic. I don't know anything about Hubbard being dead, but if I asked my brother, I'm sure he would say it was a plot by the FBI, the CIA, the IRS and the FDA (and maybe a few others). Does anyone know any more? It sounds fascinating. (Howard Hughes lives!!) - rene ------------------------------ Date: 21 Nov 1982 1325-PST Subject: Space rock From: Mike Leavitt I think what this discussion needs is a good label. In the music business, the term "hi fi" became a term used only derogatorily with regard to quality recorded music. Similarly, "sci fi" is now used only by ignorami or, again, derogatorily towards films and mainstream novels. So let me suggest "spa fi" as a derogatory term to be applied to space rock music that isn't true to the origins of SF in any of the various ways discussed on this list recently. Remember, you heard it here first. Mike ------------------------------ Date: 21 Nov 1982 16:42 PST From: LFeinberg.es at PARC-MAXC Subject: SF in Music Reply-to: LFeinberg.es at PARC-MAXC A song which should not be overlooked is Pearls Before Swines' "Rocket Man" (no not the same as Elton John's). It is sung by the son of a spaceship pilot who had died in space, and explores his emotional reaction to the death, starting with avoidance of the night sky: My mother and I never went out, Unless the sky was cloudy or the moon was shining bright.... Perhaps a bit oversimplifying of emotions, but I was touched by it. Lawrerence P.S. Could this be the next century's equivilent to a country/western tearjerker? ------------------------------ Date: 21 Nov 1982 16:58 PST From: LFeinberg.es at PARC-MAXC Subject: Inquiry on SF Art Reply-to: LFeinberg.es at PARC-MAXC I am searching for a series of black and white prints of spaceship interiors which I saw about ten years ago. Although clearly spacecraft, these were modeled after classical Greek and Roman buildings (and the large body of classical prints of such buildings). I have not seen this work on any book or maganzine covers. If anyone knows of where I can obtain such prints (or reproductions of them), I would be most grateful. Any information, especially the artist's name, would also be very helpful. I saw the prints at a World Science Fiction Convention I attended at the Shoreham Hotel(I believe) in Washington, D.C. This was the summer of 1973. At the time, I did not have the resources to purchase a print; I would now like to buy one if possible, or at least see them again. Lawrerence ------------------------------ Date: 21 Nov 1982 2021-PST From: Henry W. Miller Subject: TWOK, Truth stranger than fiction I was talking with a couple of hacker friends a few nights back, shooting the breeze about great goofs we had done in the past. Suddenly, I remembered a classic goof I pulled while at DEC that predates the Command Console Prefix in the Wrath of Kahn. A couple of years back, a DEC salesman had the bad habit of occupying my office and terminal during lunch hour if I wasn't there to stop him. I came in late one morning to find him ingrossed in a Star Trek game. He refused to relenquish my terminal, and to add insult to injury, his sandwich was leaking all over a document that I had spent all night printing on the word processor. I decided it was time to act. I went to another terminal, logged in, got a copy of the Star Trek game and made not of a few key locations. I then popped into the monitor, locked down his address space, and proceeded to modify his core image. Suddenly, his shields went down, his power was exhausted, all devices were inactive, and he was destroyed in short order. I didn't have any problems keeping him out of my office in the future. -HWM ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 22-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #85 *** EOOH *** Date: Monday, November 22, 1982 9:24PM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #85 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 23 Nov 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 85 Today's Topics: Music - space rock and classics Authors - L. Ron Hubbard, Michener spelling Books - CHILDHOOD'S END spoiler Movies - Review of The Last Unicorn ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Nov 1982 1019-PST From: Tom Wadlow Subject: *Real* SF Classics I am willing to allow that the music from Cosmos is not SF music simply because it was used in Cosmos, and that the Barber of Seville and all the rest are not bicycling music simply because of Breaking Away, but the Blue Danube *is* an SF classic because of 2001. I wonder if I will ever hear that piece and not think of that space station, spinning gracefully around the Earth...?? --Tom ------------------------------ Date: 22 Nov 1982 09:45 PST From: GMeredith.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Latest on L. Ron Hubbard A radio news item this morning says that Mrs. L. Ron Hubbard states that Mr. L. Ron Hubbbard is neither dead nor incapacitated. Seems she hasn't seen him since 1979, though.... ------------------------------ Date: 22 November 1982 1338-EST (Monday) From: Dan Hoey at CMU-CS-A Subject: James (A.) Mich(e)ner Recent digests have referred to an author named James Michner (sic). I am aware of an author named James Albert Michener; I have read his name on the outside of several very thick books. Is the author of Space a different person? Or has somebody managed to get through one of those vtb's without getting his name right? Or, horrors, are we the victims of an automatic spelling program gone amok? In the header of #80, there was even a cryptic reference to Micher! Da Hy [I confess that it was an editorial error. The name is indeed Michener. I seem to recall reading one of his books about 12 years ago, THE DRIFTERS, and thinking it was quite good: a bunch of young people wandering around Europe. -- Stuart] ------------------------------ Date: 22 Nov 1982 1717-PST From: Don Voreck Subject: After the Gold Rush [Childhood's End] Someone already mentioned Neil Young's "After The Gold Rush" as space rock, but I was wondering if anyone aside from myself has noticed that one of the verses is an apparent description of Arthur C. Clark's book "Childhood's End". Here are the lyrics to the relevant verse from memory (so they may be a tad off) ....... Well, I dreamed I saw the silver space ships flying in the yellow haze of the sun. There were children crying and colors flying all around the chosen ones. All in a dream, all in a dream the loading had begun. Flying mother natures silver seed to a new home in the sun. Flying mother natures silver seed to a new home in the sun. ********** CHILDHOOD'S END SPOILER. YOU MAY WANT TO SKIP THE ********** REST OF THIS MESSAGE. "Childhood's End" is a great book which I recommend highly. What follows is definitely a giveaway of the entire plot. Again from memory and I read the book over 4 years ago. The book opens with silver flying saucers stationing themselves directly over various capitals and major cities all over the world. The space ships cannot be destroyed by earthly weapons, and they prevent warring between nations by destroying in flight missiles. The saucers make a short broadcast over all radio and T.V. stations saying that there intentions are not hostile and that they will act as moderator to make sure that mankind does not war with itself or destroy it self. The press dubs them "The Overlords". One of the more aggressive nations succeeds in exploding a nuclear bomb on a space ship over its enemies capital. The saucer some how absorbed the blast and prevented damage to itself and the city. After this the world resigns itself to 3 or 4 generations of peaceful productive living ....... Then we find out why the Overlords real purpose. It starts with an average child in an average family having unusual and insightful dreams of creatures and other planets far beyond the childs experience or imagination. The child also gradually and subtly starts to gain strange powers of ESP and tele-kinetics (moving objects by thought). An analogy is drawn by the author between this child and a seed in a culture, or the first crystal in a super saturated solution causing other crystals to form around it . Soon other children are also affected the same way. These changes also effect the childrens personalities as their powers become so strong that they can easily move large objects and read minds. It starts to become clear to the parents and to the world that their children are being taken away from them. Soon all of the children of the world under a certain age have been affected. In an earlier time in earth's history mankind would have reacted violently but due to prolonged peace on earth mankind's attitudes had changed slightly. Man was still powerless against the Overlords anyway. Finally the the spaceships land for the first time and the children voluntarily go to the spaceships and are loaded aboard to protect them from their parents. The children are drawn to the ships by their new found powers. Mankind is left to die as its last generation grows old. The spaceships leave with the children ..................... Flying mother natures silver seed ......... ? Comments? Don ------------------------------ Date: 22 Nov 82 20:33-PST From: mclure at SRI-UNIX Subject: Review: The Last Unicorn By RICHARD FREEDMAN, Newhouse News Service (UNDATED) Among the magic properties of unicorns is their uncanny ability to star in distinguished animated cartoons. Several years ago, James Thurber's satiric ''Unicorn in the Garden'' was made into a delightful short, and now Peter S. Beagle's gentle ''The Last Unicorn'' is the heroine of an equally appealing feature-length film. Equipped with the voice of Mia Farrow and perhaps longer, sexier eyelashes than she needs, this unicorn prances through an enchanted medieval woodland in search of her companions who have all mysteriously disappeared. On orders from gaunt, ashen-faced King Haggard (Christopher Lee), they've been herded into the sea by the flaming, minotaurlike Red Bull. Our unicorn enlists the aid of inept Schmendrick the Magician (Alan Arkin), self-proclaimed ''last of the red-hot Swamis,'' to help her find and rescue her race. In the classic formula of the medieval quest, this distinctly odd couple undergoes many adventures, ranging from encounters with Robin Hood and a wicked, gnarled old gypsy named Mommy Fortune (Angela Lansbury) to a peg-legged pirate cat with a red eyepatch (Paul Frees) and a talking skeleton (Rene Auberjonois). They're accompanied by depressed housewife Molly Grue (Tammy Grimes), but there's nothing depressing about this truly enchanted fable. From the opening credits - a cartoon version of the Cloister's Unicorn tapestry - to the lyrical, rueful finale of the unicorns disporting themselves among the waves, this poetic film is as superior to the usual Saturday morning cartoon fare on television as T.S. Eliot is to Rod McKuen. ''The Last Unicorn'' is not, however, without its occasional lapses of taste. The team of animators headed by Katsuhisa Yamada have made the heroine - especially when she is briefly transformed by Schmendrick into human form - more cloyingly pretty than she needs to be. And the adenoidal singing of the Jimmy Webb score by America on the soundtrack doesn't help much. But all in all this is the finest animated feature in years, dealing with such very grownup metaphysical issues as illusion vs. reality, human mortality vs. mythic immortality, and the inextricable combination of love and regret. A tall order, perhaps beyond the grasp of very small children, but so beautifully visualized that ''The Last Unicorn'' is one cartoon no adult need squirm through. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 23-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #86 *** EOOH *** Date: Tuesday, November 23, 1982 9:04PM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #86 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 24 Nov 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 86 Today's Topics: Themes - shrinking Books - Moorcock's BYZANTIUM ENDURES, Jakubowski's Music & Opera in Nicholls' Encyclopedia, Clarke's CHILDHOOD'S END **spoiler**, sequelitis Query - explosive decompression Movies - Dark Crystal, tiresome SF-Rock Music - Danube, etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 23 November 1982 01:09-EST From: Keith F. Lynch Subject: Re: shrinking Good idea! I am so tired of all these tedious messages about rock music! In addition to the stories already mentioned there is 'Submicroscopic', and its sequel 'Awlo of Ulm', both written by Capt. S. P. Meek and originally published in 1931. I found them in book one of 'Before the Golden Age', an anthology editied by Isaac Asimov, published in 1975. A sportsman builds a shrinking machine, so he can go big-game-hunting for ants. He has a hard time turning it off, and finally he finds himself in a beautiful valley in which he rescues a fair maiden in distress, etc... Everyone speaks Hawaiian there. Lots of laughs, although it appears to have been intendend as a serious story. Another old favorite involved a fellow who was forced to shrink by a mad scientist, and shrinks through level after level of atoms-that-are- really-solar-systems. Does anyone recall what this was called and who it was by? I think it may have been called 'He Who Shrank'. There was another story I recall even less of. It had something to do with someone who mined gold from a tiny piece of quartz. Not strictly part of this genre, there is James Blish's 'Surface Tension' about some biologists who crash on a watery planet, and create microscopic, but still human, descendants. Hoping Spock stays dead... ...Keith ------------------------------ Date: 23 Nov 1982 0702-PST From: CARROLL at USC-ISIF Subject: Shrinking The Legion of Super Heroes comic series featured Shrinking Violet ( female) and Colossal Boy. DC also had The Atom, who could vary his weight independent of his size. Marvel had Antman, who later decided to use his power in the other direction, and changed his name to Goliath. I recall a Lost in Space in which the robot was enlarged by strange radiation, and Will and Dr. Smith went inside to perform some sort of repair. How about "The Phantom Planet"? The hero crashes, and his helmet visor is cracked. Upon breathing the alien atmosphere, he shrinks! He becomes involved in the war between the tiny humans and the evil Solaroids. Then there was "Dr. Cyclops", the mad scientist who experimented on passers-by at his South American (?) hideaway. He delighted in reducing them and then chasing them around the room. Does "Tron" qualify for this discussion? The Incredible Shrinking Man lives! Steve ------------------------------ Date: 23 November 1982 16:56 mst From: Lippard at M.PCO.LISD.HIS (James J. Lippard) Subject: shrinking in SF Reply-to: Lippard%PCO-Multics at MIT-MULTICS In Harry Harrison's new "The Stainless Steel Rat for President", diGriz makes use of a device which removes 90% of the molecules in an object, causing it to be miniaturized. ------------------------------ From: "VIDEO::Powers c/o" Date: 11-NOV-1982 12:08 Subj: LIFE IS A SEQUEL; DR. WHO with regard to sequels: I find that stories which tie up all the loose ends lack a certain credibility. Plots and/or situations can either dead-end or continue; life always goes on. Stories with particularly dramatic finales (that is, where the loose ends get really tied down) create new loose ends. Orson Scott Card's first story in Analog (late 1976/ early 1977?), "Ender's Game," is a case in point. The tactical genius, Ender, defeats the alien race on its own world, closing the book on the interstellar war. The Earth is saved. So what happens to Ender? (By this time he's 6? 9? 12 years old?) What happens to the hundreds/thousands of kids in the "find us a military genius" program? The case is closed. Sure, we could have a sequel, but the entire tenor of the times has to change; the thrust of the story has to be redirected. I suspect it's not worth re-educating the audience to ap- preciate the old players on the new stage. Also, maybe we should dis- tinguish "sequels" from "episodes." Star Wars is sequential; Star Trek (and most other situation comedies) are episodic. as for Dr. Who: The current Dr. Who series in our area is the Keys of Time series, copyright 1978. The earliest Tom Baker episodes I re- member are in the '73/'74 (copyright) time frame. (We had these stateside in '76/'77.) The previous Dr. Who was Jon Pertwee. Don atheson's comments on the new Who (SFL v6, 61: "no hat... scarf... pockets") are reminiscent of my thoughts when the old Who transmogri- fied into the new Who. Pertwee/Who was a bit of a dishevelled dandy; starched collar and black tails; no hat, no pockets. He was rather sterner and less pixy-ish than Baker/Who, though no less impatient with his lessers. (This is the Who of the early Who book series, with the Daleks and the like.) The transition was mildly distracting. To the point on regeneration: yes, Time Lords who experience a really dreadful physical trauma can regenerate themselves. Pertwee/Who changed into Baker/Who (clothes and all) in a lap dissolve as a result of some massive dose of radiation (and perhaps a contract dispute), fatal to even a Time Lord. A one-time coworker who worked in England during the '60s once told me that there have been several (as many as seven?) Whos by this method. As I recall, during the lap dissolve there was a fade-over of several anguished faces, all different, which were purported by this coworker to be the litany of previous Whos. Re-Birth Trauma after 750 years? (By the way, who is playing the new Who?) ------------------------------ Date: 23 Nov 1982 0713-PST Subject: Moorcock's BYZANTIUM ENDURES From: WMartin at Office-8 (Will Martin) I was inspired by the recent Moorcock discussions to pick up the subject book from the local library SF shelves. Reading the jacket blurb led me to believe it was an alternate-universe book set (mainly) in revolutionary Russia. Be warned! It is NOT SF! It is merely an historical novel. The only way it could be considered "alternate-universe" is the same way that any historical fiction could be -- it presupposes the past existence of characters who really were not there. I am going to put a note with it when I return it asking that the library reclassify it as ordinary fiction, but I doubt that they will bother. The Cornelius business shows up in this one, too; one of the characters is "Honoria Cornelius", a Cockney woman who interacts from time to time with the protagonist. Moorcock completionists will probably want this, but SF readers won't. Will Martin (Moorcock, Michael; BYZANTIUM ENDURES, Random House, 1981) ------------------------------ Date: 23 Nov 1982 08:56 EST Subject: re: Jakubowski's Music & Opera From: Chris Heiny Dave is right, Jakubowski does like to make sf-rock out of anything with a spacey name. Most obvious to me was his inclusion Pink Floyd's "Atom Heart Mother" and "Dark Side of the Moon", which are distinctly NOT science fiction, while he made no mention of "Relics" (1971?), which contains some of the sf-type stuff from their earlier albums. His lists appear as if he never listened to most of the works he mentions, but rather relied on a record store catalog and the backs of the albums in the library's classics collection. He also seems to have totally missed new wave groups : Devo's first albums were appearing at the apparent time of writing, and those were more sf oriented than some of the albums he recited. (Jakubowski also seems to have a theasaurus of reviewers cliches) chris ------------------------------ Date: Mon Nov 22 1982 18:19:25 PST From: Lauren Weinstein Subject: Explosive Decompression Greetings. Over the years, various Science-Fiction movies have depicted the results of "stepping outside for a minute" in rather different manners. In "Outland", for example, we were "treated" to people exploding (in a rather disgusting fashion) immediately upon exposure to vacuum. However, in "2001", our hero spent a number of seconds in vacuum, part of the time with his eyes open, and managed to survive long enough to pull an emergency compression lever. He also managed to survive the rapid recompression. The Question: Which of these scenarios is closest to the truth? How long CAN someone survive in space under such conditions? I know that there have been some experiments on this topic over the years... does anyone know the results of these? The next time I get thrown from a spaceship by a large, burly guard who keeps bellowing, "Resistance is useless!!!", how long should I expect to last? Thanks. --Lauren-- ------------------------------ Date: 23 Nov 1982 0751-PST From: Brent Hailpern Subject: Dark Crystal, tiresome SF-Rock This weekend I heard a promo (during hgttg) that Dark Crystal, the movie would premere in New York on Dec. 13th. Channel 13 would give you tickets for free if you gave them enough $$$. I have seen the book on the shelves, but have not read it. Is it any good? FLAME I am getting very tired of the SF-Rock discussion, but I understand that others are fascinated by it -- I was particullarly annoyed at the reprinted magazine article -- it took for ever to ignore at 300 baud. Could we reach some compromise on this? Perhaps collecting the music stuff in bunches and shipping it every other day in its own digest, easily skipped. Or even putting it at the end of the digest with a header similar to the spoiler warnings. EMALF [I will try to keep the music discussion at the end of the digests. As a general rule, extensive discussions of any sort will go at the end. Same for movie reviews from the press. --Stuart] ------------------------------ Date: 23 Nov 1982 1228-EST From: DAVID.LEWIN Subject: Clarke's "Childhood's End"--CORRECTION/**SPOILER** Contrary to the message from Don Voreck giving the plot to "Childhood's End", the children do NOT leave in spaceships. They advance beyond the need for bodies and transcend the material level of existence, destroying the Earth as a pupa destroys it cocoon. Voreck's plot outline leaves out some three-quarters of the plot development of Clarke's novel, including a tie-in of the Overlords and human religions, and a visit to the Overlords' home world. ------------------------------ Date: 23 November 1982 15:41-EST (Tuesday) From: The One and Only Mijjil {Matthew J Lecin} Subject: sf music? Reply-to: Lecin@Rutgers I would think that SOMEONE would remember that there is a fair share of country/western sf music as well - how about Bobby Bare's "Last Truck Driving Man"? There is of course, all the unmentioned THEME music from all of our favourite series - Star Trek, Outer Limits, Twilight Zone - even Lost In Space (mentioned that one for you, Lauren)... What about Gary Numan? (With or WITHOUT the "Tubeway Army"? Or do I vaguely remember someone already mentioning them?) What about the music to "Lathe of Heaven"? {Mijjil} ------------------------------ Date: 23 Nov 1982 1536-PST From: Lynn Gold Subject: Blue Danube -- SF??? The Blue Danube has been used as backdrop music for SOOOO many NON-SF things that it is wrong to classify it as SF. I'm sorry, but even though I've seen 2001, when *I* hear it, I tend to think of old Warner Bros. cartoons where the song was often used as a backdrop for birds swimming on a lake (quacking away as they swam), rather than one segment of an awesome movie. --Lynn ------------------------------ From: "EVE::SPENCER c/o" Date: 4-NOV-1982 13:54 Subj: Some trivia for SFL Some time back, comments were made about the non-release of Vangelis' score from BLADERUNNER. It has been released...as the movie score for BLADERUNNER. I found a copy in the movie section at Strawberries in Harvard Square. ------------------------------ From: "WAJENBERG AT MERLIN c/o" Posted-date: 18-Nov-1982 Subject: SF songs I have heard two SF (or at least astronomical) songs which no one here seems to have listed yet. What was a little remarkable was that I heard them both in the same evening, on two ubrealted TV shows. The first appeared on the Muppet Show, and had the refrain "Bold is the ship bound for Alpha Centauri." And that's all I remember, except taht the melody was minor-key and ballad-like and the mood was essentially romantic. (Something in there like, "Her captains are poets and lovers and clowns.") The other song appeared on Walter Cronkheit's Universe (one of the more megalomanica titles, up there with Carl Sagan's Cosmos). It is entitled "Lament for a Red Planet" (which is also the title of a chapter/installment of Carl Sagan's Cosmos, though I don't know which came first. Come to think of it, Sagan's title was "Blues for a Red Planet.") Anyway, it was written by a science journalist and based on the apparently dry river beds visible on the surface of Mars. It starts: Ten thousand times a hundred thousand dusty years ago, My river ran where now the Plain of Gold extends. It ends: My ocher cliffs and unber rocks stand silent and serene, But, O my wan and wasted world, I miss your blue and green. I consider it a remarkable song, because (1) it was pretty good and (2) it was really just about science. There is precious little poetry, much less song, about science that rises above the level of: There was a young lady named Bright Whose speed was much faster than light. She set out one day In a relative way And returned on the previous night. George Gamow wrote an opera based on Faust and concerned with the prediciton and discovery of the neutrion, but, too, was farcical. While we're listing SF and fantasy songs, does anyone know of any more science songs? or poems? If you think the topic is inappropriate to this column (and it con't be much worse than Pacman jokes), send VAXmail to MERLIN::WAJENBERG, if you can. ------------------------------ From: "WAJENBERG AT MERLIN c/o" Posted-date: 18-Nov-1982 Subject: SF musical comedy This summer, I saw a very-far-off-Broadway musical comedy that was completely science fictional. It was called The Maxwells of Rotek, and was put on by an amature theatricals group out here in the wilds of New Hampshire. However, the director-author winters in New York, so you may someday hear of this play ON Broadway. The Maxwells are a reasonablly normal family of humans living in the far future. they are in the family starship, on the way to Dad's new job, when they are marooned on Rotek, a small, blue, cubical planet. (This will give you an idea of how serious this play is.) Three faces of Rotek are inhabited by Rotekians, played (in this instance) by high school and junior high school kids. You tell humans from Rotekians by the fact that humans dress in white and green, while Rotekians dress in white and purple. Also, Rotekians have short white antennae, with which they can read the thoughts of any person with whom they fall in love. The Rotekians are ruled by a monarchy, but the heir runs away about the same time that the Maxwells crash, meets them (on one of the uninhabited faces) and falls in love with their teenage daughter. (And therefore begins reading her thoughts.) The plot complications arise from the other two faces of the planet, inhabited by a villainess in gold lamee, and her hordes of vorpods. Vorpods are two-headed, three-legged creatures, played by two kids each, in some rather imaginative costuming. I won't go on with this, except to say that the play is indeed funny, would porbably be even funnier with seasoned adult actors (not that these kids were slouches), and is full of songs. One of the most science fictional is sung by the family robot, who is rather above the people it serves. It complains at the beginning of the song, "Here I am am, the latest in home electronics, wasted on a pack of Earthlings," and later, "I could be analysing soil samples from the Martina plains, but here I'm stuck with Pacman and stubborn stains." He is obviously related to Marvin, from HHG. A couple of the songs, about being lost and missing Earth, are really rather touching, and the Rotekian national anthem is very funny. ("Hail Rotek! Fair Rotek! Small and square and fair and blue!") ------------------------------ From: "MARKET::RTILLSON c/o" Date: 16-NOV-1982 11:22 Subj: More SF Rock For the record, '39 was written by Brian May, Queen's guitarist, not Freddie Mercury. It is the only acoustic number I have seen them do in concert. All of the band members have technical or engineering degrees of some sort, and one (Mercury, I think) has a physics degree. The album with the Kelly Freas cover was News of the World, the band's sixth album. In my opinion, the song '39 (from the Night at the Opera album) is one of the most subtle SF-oriented songs I have heard. Other SF songs I haven't seen mentioned yet - Narnia - by Steve Hacket, formerly of Genesis Space Truckin' - Deep Purple Space Cowboy - Steve Miller Not rock, but worth mentioning: Holst's "The Planets" /rmt ------------------------------ From: "HARDY::GLASSER c/o" Date: 18-Nov-82 20:33 Subject: Space Rock I missed the beginning of the "Space Rock" discussions, but I've not seen mention of several notables, such as Hawkwind, Pink Floyd, Mike Oldfield, and The Five Man Electrical Band. Almost all of Hawkwind's music was "Space Rock". Pink Floyd did "Interstellar Overdrive", among others. "Platinum" is Mike Oldfields contribution, and the Five Man Electrical band did "I'm A Stranger Here". I also have works in my tape library including such cuts as "The Black Hole Blues", "The Star Trek Blues" and such, but I don't recall the artists. Negative Land did a space-rock album and there are still more that I can't think of right off. If anybody wants a list, I'll collect and submit it. Daniel Glasser ------------------------------ From: "PAUL KARGER AT ULTRA c/o" Posted-date: 08-Nov-1982 Subject: ice cream freezers in SW/TESB Ice cream freezers??? What ice cream freezers in SW/TESB???????? Paul Karger ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 24-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #87 *** EOOH *** Date: Wednesday, November 24, 1982 8:51PM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #87 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 25 Nov 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 87 Today's Topics: Books - Chalker's THE FOUR LORDS OF THE DIAMOND tetralogy Harrison's THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT FOR PRESIDENT Query - explosive decompression Themes - shrinking in Music - country-western SF, Bladerunner, etc. Movies - Star Trek inconsistencies ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 23 Nov 82 23:01-PST From: mclure at SRI-UNIX Subject: Chalker's The Four Lords of the Diamond tetralogy Has anyone out there read it (or what's been published so far)... any opinions? How about his "Wellworld" series? ------------------------------ Date: 24 Nov 1982 10:24 EST From: Heiny.Henr at PARC-MAXC Subject: re: "The Stainless Steel Rat for President" As a Slippery Jim fan, your mention of a new Stainless Steel Rat book has got my attention, and sparked a few questions : Is this out in paperback yet? Who publishes it? ..and most importantly.. Where can I get a copy? (does anyone know of someplace in the Rochester area?) chris ------------------------------ Date: 24 Nov 1982 09:32 PST From: GMeredith.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #86 Regarding the question of "explosive decompression". The sequence in 2001 follows the script Arthur C. Clarke has used a number of times (well, maybe twice). Clarke is involved with rocketry stuff in real life, so maybe he knows what he's talking about. In any event, I have seen articles by various "authorities" which support Clarke's version. Might check with the people on XeroxSpace^.pa. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Nov 82 14:59:05-EST (Tue) From: David Axler Subject: Shrinking in sf Let's not forget dear li'l Alice, both in Wonderland and in Looking-Glass land, who underwent many metamorphoses of size. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Nov 1982 1832-EST From: Nat Feldman Subject: Shrinking and Growing Movies: The Incredible Shrinking Man The Incredible Shrinking Woman The Collossus of New York (or some such city, NOT of the Forbin project) The Fly and sequels (The fly grew, and the human shrank; going by the heads.) Television: Star Trek "The Immunity Syndrome" (giant ameoba) Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea - Untold numbers of giant jellyfish plankton, et cetera. Comics: The story of finding of a subatomic solar system has been used at least twice in Marvel comics, as I remember. The first was an early Fantastic Four or some other scientist-based story. The other was an ongoing series in The Hulk. This system was populated by green skinned individuals who were rescued by the Hulk and adored him. He fell in love with Jarella the beautiful green princess of the saved world, and she flipped for him as well. After separating and reuniting the lovers, the Marvel people killed off Jarella leaving the Hulk more than a bit miffed when he arrived back at our size. Of course the Hulk himself is an example of a person growing (Bruce Banner to the Hulk) for our discussion. Also, in DC comics one must mention The Atom, one on each of Earth-1 and Earth-2. I suppose there may be more Earths by this time. A good choice of topics. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Nov 1982 20:07:18 CST (Tuesday) From: Mike Meyer Subject: Spa Fi Let us add to the list: The Sirens of Titan, by Al (the real) Stewart, on Modern Times and Those Big-eyed-beans from Venus, by Captain Beefheart. Re: "The first appeared on the Muppet Show, and had the refrain 'Bold is the ship bound for Alpha Centauri.'" - "WAJENBERG AT MERLIN c/o" That's "We Must Believe in Magic", sung by Crystal Gayle. We must believe in magic We must believe in the guiding hand If you believe in magic You'll have the universe at your command ------------------------------ Date: 24 Nov 1982 09:16 PST From: LFeinberg.es at PARC-MAXC Subject: SF Country-Western SF Country-Western? How about Asleep at the Wheel's "Space Buggy": Had a race with a meteorite, my space buggy it won that fight... Had a date with a man from Mars, my space buggy, it don't go that far.. etc., etc.... Lawrerence ------------------------------ Date: 24 Nov 1982 12:59:34 EST (Wednesday) From: Winston Edmond Subject: BLADERUNNER ALBUM WARNING! Read the cover carefully! This is NOT the soundtrack of the movie, but an orchestral rendition of the music from the movie. I have not yet heard a report on whether or not the album is worth having on its own merits. -WBE ------------------------------ Date: 24 Nov 1982 1451-PST From: Ross Finlayson Subject: More SF rock (sigh...) I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this song already, but I have recently heard heard local radio stations playing a "reggae-sounding" song called "IGY" (International Geophysical Year?), sung by Donald Fagan. The song is not particularly good, but it describes things such as wheel-shaped space stations, and underground trains capable of travelling from New York to Paris in 90 minutes. Ross. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Nov 1982 2335-EST From: Reed B. Powell Subject: ST2WOK; inconsistencies; your opinion Now that I got the cassette, I have a chance to check on the things that have bugged the Hell out of me about WOK: 1. Dates 2. Ceti-Alpha planetary system DATES: When "Bones" gives Kirk the bootleg booze, Kirk looks at it's label and says, apreciatively, "2283", in the same tone one comments on 35-year old Scotch (not 23 minute old Gallo). Bones additionally makes the remark that it takes a while to ferment. The problem is this: the picture opens with the statement: IN THE 23RD CENTURY... And the "Captain's" log of the Enterprise, and the First Officer's log of the Reliant, both specify a Stardate of 81xx.yy, making the year to be 2281. CETI-ALPHI START SYSTEM: This has bugged me since the first the premier of WOK. They are headed for planet #6. They land on Planet #5, but think it is #6. Why? If #6 exploded, that makes #7 (if it exists) the new #6 (in numbering rather than orbits), but does not change #5. In any event the explosion would indeed, as Khan stated, have shifted the orbit of at least #5, now placing it in a new orbit (but not that of #6). This certainly would have been noted by astronomers SOMEWHERE (it was, after all, 14.5 years before the action of WOK). So, again I ask, how can the Reliant land on CETI-ALPHA-5 thinking it is C-A-6? Sound to me like someone should petition Starfleet to revoke a few licenses! -reed ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 25-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #88 *** EOOH *** Date: Thursday, November 25, 1982 11:02PM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #88 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 26 Nov 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 88 Today's Topics: Themes - shrinking, explosive decompression Books - Wolfe's The Book of the New Sun Radio - A Canticle for Lebowitz Movies - Dark Crystal, Star Wars/TESB, Star Trek Music - space classics ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 23 Nov 82 18:02:15 EST (Tue) From: Fred Blonder Subject: Re: Shrinking in SF From: Landon M. Dyer What are the books/short stories/movies that have shrinking or expanding as a central (or maybe not so central) theme? -Landon- The obvious one is ``The [Incredible] Shrinking Man'', (I'm not sure of the presence of the word ``incredible'' in the title) a 50's black & white film which is actually quite good for this sort of thing. The reason the hero starts shrinking is a little hokey: he is exposed to a ``mysterious cloud of fog'', but the effects used to show him getting smaller, and people's reactions to it were well portrayed. What's unusual about this movie is that the hero is neither cured nor killed, but at the end of the movie is left on his own to fend for himself, no longer a member of human society. Lilly Tomlin recently did a remake of the movie. (s/man/wo&/ in the title) ------------------------------ Date: 25 Nov 1982 1132-MST From: William Galway Subject: Shrinking people Two childrens stories come to mind--however it's been a long time so I'll only be able to give a rough description of the plots: Story #1. The main characters here are a boy and a seagull. The boy has some accident (something like falling out of a tree), and starts to shrink. When he gets down to something like an inch or so high, he meets a seagull (named Gus?), and strikes up a friendship. My impression of Gus is that he's rather steet-wise, probably from New York. At some point the boy is approached by some government agent (?), (or his father?), and told about an evil mad (and European) scientist who's invented a powerful new explosive. As I recall, the scientist has created about a vitamin pill's worth of the stuff and, to prove he means business, has exploded one tiny little piece of that with results comparable to the Hiroshima bomb. The boy and Gus agree to try stealing the explosive, are outfitted for the flight across the Atlantic, and go for it. They spend some time playing tourist before getting down to business--this turns out to be a dissapointment. In one country (France, or modeled after France?) everyone's on strike. And Gus is wild about the idea of going to Sardinia, but can't find a decent sardine once he gets there. They successfully steal the explosive, fly back towards home, and drop the explosive in the middle of the Atlantic. They're really knocked around by the blast, and the boy starts growing again as a result of that. Story #2. I remember even less about this one. The characters in this story are some school boys (I forget exactly how many, two or three probably), probably in their early teens. They come across some chemicals somewhere (a school lab?) and somehow ingest some of them (or absorb it through their skin?). My impression is that the chemicals are some sort of pituitary hormones. Nothing much happens for a few days, except the boys loose a little weight. Then, on the way home, they suddenly shrink down to nearly nothing--about knee-high to an ant perhaps. The rest of the story is about their adventures covering the 100 yards or so to one of the boy's homes. Can someone identify the titles/authors for these stories, and correct any details that I've distorted? Perhaps the transformations of Arthur (the Wart) in "The Once and Future King" count as shrinking? (He's turned into several different animals as part of his education under Merlin.) In Zelazny's "Jack of Shadows", there's an episode where Jack is captured by one of his enemies. He's held prisoner in a hollowed out jewel that hangs as a pendant around the enemy's neck. The cute thing about this is that he only finds this out after being visited by his enemy inside the jewel. The baddie shows Jack the jewel hanging around his neck, suggests that Jack look inside. Later on he plunges the room into darkness by putting his hand around it, and raises the temperature a bit by holding it over a candle. I'm not sure if this a "shrinking" or not, for all I know it's also an expanding. Escher could have some fun with the scene. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Nov 82 02:29:34 EST (Thu) From: Fred Blonder Subject: Re: Explosive Decompression From: Lauren Weinstein How long CAN someone survive in [a vacuum]? I know that there have been some experiments on this topic over the years... does anyone know the results of these? A couple of years ago I was given a tour of the University of Maryland Hospital in Baltimore City by one of the doctors. (a friend of a friend) While he was explaining the hyperbaric chamber (which is itself quite fascinating: They have a complete operating room in there, which they can compress to up to five atmospheres.) I asked the same question. He said that yes, you can survive in a complete vacuum for a little while, but that it is extremely painful. Unfortunately we zipped on to the next exhibit before I got to ask the obvious questions: ``how long'' and ``how do you know''. I got the feeling he didn't want to discuss it. I expect that the immediate effect of exposing yourself to a vacuum (aside from having nothing to breathe) would be about the same as the effect of a too-rapid decompression from a 30 foot (i.e.: one atmospheric pressure) scuba dive, namely the bends. I've always felt that the 2001 ``spacewalk'' would have been a bit more plausible if Bowman had gotten a nosebleed from it or his eardrums had burst. (nothing TOO gross of course, but SOME sort of injury) The next time I get thrown from a spaceship by a large, burly guard who keeps bellowing, "Resistance is useless!!!", how long should I expect to last? 30 seconds at a probability factor of 8,137,445 to one against and falling, which just happens to be the phone number of a very good... ------------------------------ Date: 25 Nov 82 10:35:11-EST (Thu) From: Richard G Turner Subject: Re: V6 #86 -- Decompression Query Regarding Lauren's query in volume 6, issue 86 concerning exlosive decompres- sion, I remember being handed a pamphlet when I entered the theater to view "2001" for the first time. This pamphlet described experiments on laboratory animals being subjected to decompression. They stated that based upon these experiments, it was felt that a man could spend somewhere between 30 seconds and 1 minute (if I remember this correctly) in vacuum prior to succumbing to the boiling away of his bodily fluids. I think I remember this pamphlet because I am not usually given explanatory material in movie theaters, and also my pregnant wife (couldn't see her feet!) chose this moment to kick over a large urn filled with sand. I immediately stuck my head in the pamphlet and tried to find a seat. rick ------------------------------ Date: 25 Nov 1982 1558-CST Subject: The Book of the New Sun From: CS.TEMIN at UTEXAS-20 Has anyone seen the third volume of Gene Wolfe's "Book of the New Sun"? The first volume is entitled "The Shadow of the Torturer", the second is "The Claw of the Concilliator". Both books contain teasing hints about the condition of the protagonist which I think are promised to be resolved in the third book. I've looked for the book but can find no information. (The books are published by Timescape/Pocket books.) Thanks, -aaron temin (Cs.Temin at Utexas-20) [The third book is "The Citadel of the Autarch" (sp?). I saw it at our local SF bookshop, in hardcover only.--Stuart] ------------------------------ Date: 25 Nov 1982 2247-EST From: Gene Hastings Subject: NPR radio plays-A Canticle for Lebowitz? I heard recently (I think it was on "The Sunday Show") that NPR is going to air (if not produce) a version of A Canticle for Lebowitz. Can anyone supplement this information? (Like release date?) Gene ------------------------------ Date: 25 Nov 1982 2317-EST From: Gene Hastings Subject: Dark Crystal Since the book is an adaptation of the screenplay, it seems appropriate to put off reading it until after seeing the film. (It could only spoil things, right?) According to an ad earlier this month on USA (cable)Network, the film opens nationally Dec. 17. The trailer looks very promising, -there is a credit for "conceptual design" given to Brian Froud, a wonderfully warped illustrator. (His past work includes Faeries and Master Snickup's Cloak.) I hope they have a new stable of voices, since I'm not sure I'll ever get over seeing Yoda, and hearing Fozzie Bear. Gene Hastings ------------------------------ Date: 24 Nov 82 21:53:17-PST (Wed) From: decvax!utzoo!watmath!jcwinterton at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: Darth Darth must be a Canadian if all he wants is PEACE and ORDER. Of course, Canadians also want "good Government" according to the provisions of the BNA Act. Oh well...... John Winterton. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Nov 1982 0306-PST From: Henry W. Miller Subject: ST:TWOK This in reply to Reed Powell's comment on the movie. Reed, old friend, you hit the nail on the head. You brought out two of my biggest, yet unpublished gripes. First, the year skewage. Secondly, the planet messup. BUT, if you remember from the series, the star dates seemed to have no real significance. They jumped around helter skelter from episode to episode. I know that you have almost the entire series on tape, AND, if you can prove me wrong, dinner is on me at DECUS. (One dinner, note.) -HWM ------------------------------ Date: 23 Nov 82 21:15:09-PST (Tue) From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!sdcsvax!sdchema!will at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: re: trek trivia Ah, yes, I remember, now...an alien being was found dead in a service tube on the ship. But I'm not sure...was it Spock's father? It seems to me that he was accused but we all know he was innocent...who did it?? (i.e., was it Spock's father that killed him?) ------------------------------ Date: 23 Nov 82 18:09:18 EST (Tue) From: Fred Blonder Subject: Re: More on Space Classics; INFO-MUSIC ?? From: Michael Muuss Since the subject of classical music in "SF" has been broached, how about Tommaso Albinoni's Adagio in G Minor for Strings and Organ Continuo? It was used most effectively in a "Space: 1999" episode. Wasn't it also used as the theme music for the movie ``Rollerball'', which is SF at least in the sense that the story is set 50 - 100 years in the future? [I believe the Rollerball theme music was the Toccata in D Minor by J.S. Bach. --Stuart] ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 26-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #89 *** EOOH *** Date: Friday, November 26, 1982 8:15PM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #89 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 27 Nov 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 89 Today's Topics: Books - Wolf's "Book of the New Sun", Harrison's "The Stainless Steel Rat for President" Radio - Miller's A Canticle for Leibowitz Themes - shrinking Query - decompression Movies - thumbs down on "The Last Unicorn", Star Trek and planet names T.V. - Spock's father Music - themes from Rollerball, country and western SF ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 26-Nov-82 09:41:13-PST (Fri) From: INGVAX.kalash@Berkeley (Joe Kalash) Subject: Book of the New Sun Actually, the third book is Sword of the Lictor, and the forth book is Citadel of the Autarch. Both are only out in hardcover, and they are getting nothing except rave reviews. Joe ------------------------------ Date: 26-Nov-82 10:36:30 PST (Friday) From: Sapsford at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #88 I am sure that the Moderator will get zillions of these notes, but ... the 3rd book in the "Book of the New Sun" series is "The Sword of the Lictor", with "The Citadel of the Autarch" being the 4th and "last" book (I quote last because the rumor is that there will be a 5th book, using the same world as the "New Sun" books, but not directly in the series - I guess it is Wolfe's "Majipoor Chronicles"). Supposedly Timescape will release "The Sword of the Lictor" in paperback in Jan. '83. All four books are currently available from the Science Fiction Book Club. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Nov 1982 2216-EST From: John Redford Subject: Gene Wolfe's "Book of the New Sun" The third book in the series is "The Sword of the Lictor", and not "The Citadel of the Autaurch", as was previously reported. TCotA is the fourth (and last) book. "The Sword of the Lictor" is out in hardback, and should be out in paperback in a matter of weeks; I saw a sample cover for it in the Science Fantasy bookstore in Cambridge. I recommend it. Our torturer-hero, Severian, is once again forced to flee for committing the crime of mercy. He loses his second love, meets his first (in monstrous form), and confronts aliens ("cacogens"), a king and a giant. Like a lot of Wolfe's words, "lictor" sounds made-up, but isn't. It means "a Roman officer who bears the fasces as the insignia of his office", i.e. an enforcer. ------------------------------ Date: 26 November 1982 20:04-EST From: Charles F. Von Rospach Subject: "The Stainless Steel Rat for President" I got a copy through the SF book club. It wasn't bad, but I don't think it was quite up to old SSR books. Still worth the money, though. ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 26 Nov 1982 10:15-PST Subject: A Canticle for Leibowitz From: Tim Mann "A Canticle for Leibowitz" is currently airing on KCSM in San Mateo (CA), on Sunday nights. I think two episodes have been broadcast so far, out of a total of 15. --Tim ------------------------------ Date: 26 Nov 1982 1219-CST From: CMP.TAYLOR at UTEXAS-20 Subject: Decompression In regards to the recent questions on explosive decommpression, one of the things that would not happen is the bends. The bends are caused when nitrogen in the bloodstream is not given an ample period of time to difuse out. However, nitrogen is not normally found in the bloodstream and only enters when the body is under pressure, such as that caused by 33 feet of seawater (1 atm.). So unless you went from breathing normal air under pressure to zero pressure, you would not get the bends. I seems to me that if you kept your mouth shut, you should be able to survive zero atomosphere for about 30 seconds. I suspect that if you opened your mouth that the lungs would be much the worse for wear. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Nov 1982 2248-EST From: John Redford Subject: thumbs down on "The Last Unicorn" Anyone who has read the book "The Last Unicorn" by Peter Beagle is going to be disappointed in the movie. All of Beagle's songs have been replaced by some pop pap from Jimmy Webb, and a lot of good scenes have been cut out altogether. A lot of the book's charm was in its balance between the mundane and the magical: when a prince and a princess go out hunting unicorn, the princess sings a lovely little song and swings a golden bridle to lure in the beast, while the bored prince reads a magazine. The animators left out the mundane parts and didn't portray magic very well. There are some good parts; the poetry-mad butterfly was done well, and the Red Bull was appropriately fierce. But the characters generally lacked expression, and the landscapes were insipid. Movies have so much more bandwidth than books that you would expect that a lot more detail would come across to a viewer than to a reader. That was certainly true in the Star Wars movies. They were full of little details that were never remarked upon or emphasized, but nonetheless gave you the feeling that this was a real, lived-in world. But in this movie, and in other attempts like "The Lord of the Rings", the visual version is much duller and narrower than the print one. It takes a powerful artistic vision to surpass a reader's imagination. John Redford ------------------------------ Date: 26 November 1982 13:21-EST (Friday) From: The One and Only Mijjil {Matthew J Lecin} Subject: re: trek trivia Reply-to: Lecin@Rutgers Gav the Tellerite was the one found dead stuffed up a Jeffries' Tube. An alien DISGUISED as an Andorian was the actual culprit. {Mijjil} ------------------------------ Date: 26 Nov 1982 1235-PST From: Henry W. Miller Subject: Spock's father Although it was not explicitly stated, it was implied very strongly that Spock's father was suffering the Vulcan equivalent of a heart attack while the Telerite was being attacked. It was probably the Orion disguised as the Andorian who did the foul deed. Although the technique was Vulcan, it is not inconceivable that other races might have had access to the knowledge. This brings up a trivia point about Spock's father. We know that Mark Leonard, a very talented actor, played both Spock's father, and also the Romulan Commander in "Balance of Terror", but he also played (under heavy makeup) the Klingon Commander in ST:TMP. -HWM ------------------------------ Date: 26 Nov 1982 (Friday) 1547-EDT From: SPEAR at Wharton-10 (Daniel Spear) Subject: ST-WOK and planet names Presumably, when approaching a new solar system looking for a given planet, you don't start in the middle and count all the planets outward until you reach the one you're looking for. You look up in your star charts, find the latest recorded distance of that planet from its star, and look for the nearest hunk of rock that distance away. Now, it does seem improbable that an explosion would pull a planet toward the source, but it could have pushed at an odd angle (they don't line up, you know) such that the net result was to end up further away, even perhaps close to the orbital distance of the offending planet. What I want to know is how a planet can spontaneously blow up. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 26 November 1982, 21:36-EST From: Dave Goodine Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #88 In reply to the digest entry: Date: 23 Nov 82 21:15:09-PST (Tue) From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!sdcsvax!sdchema!will at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: re: trek trivia Ah, yes, I remember, now...an alien being was found dead in a service tube on the ship. But I'm not sure...was it Spock's father? It seems to me that he was accused but we all know he was innocent...who did it?? (i.e., was it Spock's father that killed him?) It wasn't Spock's father that killed him, but a spy posing as an ambassador. I forget the name of the race(some random stellar-name-root with a TIAN ending), but they were blue skinned, white haired humanoids with curved antennae. (The impostor hid a communicator device in his left antenna.) The assasin's ship then attacked the Enterprise and severely wounded it. Kirk, sitting to the occasion, played dead(shutting down all power consumption except phasers and waited until the ship came close enough(it was very fast when it attacked (something like warp 11))... (usual all-bad-guys-killed (spy commits suicide) ending...). Dave(); ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 26 Nov 1982 12:23-PST Subject: Theme from Rollerball From: David Kaelbling The theme from Rollerball is Shostakovich's Fifth Symphony. David Kaelbling ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 26 Nov 1982 14:19-PST Subject: Shrinking Alice & Rollerball From: Paul Asente Recently it was stated that Alice experienced shrinking/growing while she was through the looking glass. While many of the things she found on the other side were unusually large (gnats, wasps, and chesspieces, for example) Alice herself always remained her normal size. Albinoni's Adagio did occur in "Rollerball," I believe during the part where the party guests are enjoying themselves by going around blowing up trees. The Toccata and Fugue also occurs as theme music, and various other baroque pieces show up as organ music during the rollerball games. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Nov 1982 2123-MST From: JW-Peterson at UTAH-20 (John W. Peterson) Subject: Shrinking storys... "Stuart Little" (by E.B. White) is another children's story dealing with the subject- in this case an intelligent mouse born to human parents. I think a film of it was also made. jp ------------------------------ Date: 24 Nov 1982 1406-PST From: Lynn Gold Subject: C & W SF (yee-HAW!) There exists a country and western song called "The Cool Green Hills of Earth". I don't know who does it, but for those of you in the New York area (other than North Jersey, notably Rutgers) who have never heard the song, there is a woman who goes by the air name Alice Leroy on WVHC (89.7FM) who does a country show called "Western Star" every Saturday morning (unless something has changed recently) somewhere between 10AM and 2PM (it's only an hour long) who closes her show each week with this song. --Lynn ------------------------------ Date: 26 Nov 82 01:04:28 EST (Fri) From: Chris Torek Subject: !!!SPOILER!!! Chalker's The Four Lords of the Diamond - !!!SPOILER!!! Yep, I've read the first three of the Four Lords of the Diamond, and all 5 of the three Well World stories. That's right, all 5 of the three: the second and third BOOKS are the second STORY, and the fourth and fifth books are the third story. I liked all that I read, but then I'm an "LE" (likes everything). Chalker has good plots and new ideas for his books. About the Four Lords of the Diamond: The first book is titled "Lilith: A Snake in the Grass". In it we are introduced to the basic situation. The military of the civlized worlds (known as the Confedaracy) has been penetrated by an alien robot, which has stolen all of their military secrets. Nothing more is known about the aliens and the government wants information, immediately. The robot has been traced back to the Warden Diamond, which is a disaster. The Warden Diamond is a stellar system with four inhabitable planets, by the names of Lilith, Cerberus, Charon, and Medusa. They were discovered and named by a scout named Halden Warden 200 years ago; he described them as follows: [Pause while I go get the third book as a reference] "Charon", came the first report. "Looks like hell." "Lilith", he continued. "Anything that pretty's got to have a snake in it." "Cerberus", he named the third. "Looks like a real dog." And, finally, "Medusa. Anybody who lives here would have to have rocks in his head." The coordinates followed, along with a code confirming that Warden had done remote but no direct exploration -- that is, he hadn't landed -- and a final code, "ZZ," which filled them with some fear. It meant that there was something very odd about the place, so approach with extreme caution. [End quotation] [General background, and "Lilith: A Snake in the Grass"] Indeed, there was reason for caution, as they found out six months after the initial exploration team landed on Lilith, and had been to all three of the other worlds. A microorganism that originated on Lilith had infected the team, and they had then carried it out to the other three worlds. This organism had different effects on each planet, due to different conditions. On Lilith, nothing not organic in nature or originally from the planet was broken down by the little beasties. So six months after arriving, the scientists watched their shuttles, clothing, tools, etc. disintegrate. Later the people remaining on Lilith discovered that some of them had picked up a new ability from their hosts. Somehow, they could communicate with their Wardens (as the microorganisms came to be called) and their Wardens could subseqently affect others. Using this power they could reshape objects or inflict pain or pleasure in others. It was also discovered that no one infected with the Warden organism was able to leave the Warden system. The organism attached itself to the very DNA of the cell, and after a certain distance from the sun the thing died (if you can call it that; Wardens are only a handful of atoms). This unfortunately led to the painful death of the person. So the Confederacy was faced with an impossibility. They had to get a good agent into the Warden system, into the established heirarchy, and then to report back. The only trouble was, once they got a good agent in, being a good agent, he would realize that he no longer needed the Confederacy; why should he work for them? They got him into the mess! And with what he knew about the inner workings of the Confederacy they would kill him as soon as he finished his mission! (Agents were normally "wiped" between missions, their memories stored in a computer.) His only chance was to become the "top dog": one of the Four Lords. The solution was to use the Merton Process. This involved copying the mind of a person into another body. Only about one in twenty "imprints" worked, but they had plenty of bodies; they would destroy the minds of the criminals who would have been sent to the Warden Diamond for safekeeping. (The Confederacy hated to waste their most creative citizens; ordinary criminals were just retrained but the brilliant ones were sent to the Warden Diamond. This should give you an idea of what the inhabitants were like.) In the bodies of four different people, the agent they selected would be transported to each of the four planets. With a tiny quasi-organic transmitter implanted in his/her brain, the copy would relay his/her experiences back to the agent, who would be safe on a ship elsewhere in the Warden system. The first report the agent received came from Lilith. His copy, in the body of Cal Tremon, had arrived on the paradise planet, and been put to work by a sadistic overseer. But a little while later Tremon's power began to manifest... No more, or I'll take away some of the fun. ["Cerberus: A Wolf in the Fold"] Cerberus was a watery world, whose only "land" turned out to be the tops of tall underwater trees. However, its Wardens had a very different effect from those of Lilith. Technology could and did exist there, at nearly the same level of the Confederacy. Here was where the raw materials from the other worlds was processed and sold, both to the planets of the Warden Diamond and to the Confederacy. The agent was sent here in the body of Quin Zhang. The ability provided by the Warden organism was somewhat unique: people on Cerberus swapped minds as a matter of course. (This is what led to the Merton Process in the first place.) ["Charon: A Dragon at the Gate"] Charon was a jungle. But on Charon, magic works! The Wardens have the ability to "convince" other Wardens that something is some way. While in reality the object or person that has been magicked does not change, all of the inhabitants of Charon believe that it has, so in effect, it has changed. Furthermore, in living things, the change slowly becomes permanent, as the Wardens produce subtle changes in the body of the affected being. Well, I hope that's not too long. If there's more interest I'll reread my Well World collection and send in something on it too. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 27-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #90 *** EOOH *** Date: Saturday, November 27, 1982 8:04PM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #90 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 28 Nov 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 90 Today's Topics: Books - Wolfe's "The Book of the New Sun", Harrison's "The Stainless Steel Rat", mushroom planet books Misc - Media of science fiction Movies - The Last Unicorn, 2001 movie sequel?, "the other" in TESB, Star Trek inconsistencies T.V. - various shows ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 Nov 1982 (Saturday) 1857-EDT From: KENNEA at Wharton-10 (Richard Kenneally) Subject: Book of the New Sun Actually, the third book, Sword of the Lictor is out in paper- back at Encore books in Philadelphia. I bought it yesterday and it deserves its reviews. Also, the third book in the Jack L. Chalker Warden Diamond series is out in paperback. I haven't read these and would like to hear some opinions. -]Rick ------------------------------ Date: 26 Nov 82 12:57:30 EST (Fri) From: Khron The Elder Subject: The Stainless Steel Rat About 6 months ago, I heard rumors that Paramount or some such were going to make a movie of The Stainless Steel Rat or had already started. I haven't heard anything since. Anybody else know anything about this? I think I read it somewhere, though the magazine's respectability was probably questionable. -Rehmi- ------------------------------ Date: 25 November 1982 17:51 mst From: Lippard at M.PCO.LISD.HIS (James J. Lippard) Subject: Stainless Steel Rat for President Reply-to: Lippard%PCO-Multics at MIT-MULTICS It is available in paperback, published by Bantam. I note that the publication date is December 1982, I just picked it up at my local Walden bookstore, there were several copies. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Nov 1982 (Saturday) 1755-EDT From: SPEAR at Wharton-10 (Daniel Spear) Subject: Media of science fiction The majority of the science fiction discussed in sf-lovers has been in 3 major media -- books, movies, and tv (with some recent, arguably weak, efforts in music) (and a little radio). I would like to see a discussion focusing on the relative advantages of these media, including why one would choose one over another, what is most effective for what sorts of things, etc. As I see it, there are 2 major types of sf as regards its medium: science fiction in the medium it was intended, and sci fi adapted from another medium. The latter includes many things, such as books and movies coming from the Star Trek tv series, movies from books, or even tv and books arising from radio (HhG). I believe it is generally considered that the original is better than its copies, in most cases. Why is this? Is it because the copy doesn't show enough imagination? Or is it because the original concept, as it was formulated, was particularly suited for the original medium? Should there be more people writing sf particularly for certain areas such as movies? These are some of the questions in this area that I would like to see addressed. Any interest out there? Dan ------------------------------ Date: 27 Nov 1982 15:22-EST From: James.Muller at CMU-CS-GANDALF at CMU-CS-A Subject: topics of discussion In answer to a question a few weeks, the things that got me started on sf were Heinlein's "childrens" books, which everyone seems to think are perfectly good reading for adults. I asked my librarian what would be some good science fiction to read, and she pointed me to Heinlein (this is 5th grade). I seem to remember immediately taking out ``Rocket Ship Galileo'', ``Space Cadet'', and ``Time for the Stars'' the first week, and eventually all the others, and then some of the "adult" Heinlein that my library had -- such pornography as ``Time enough for Love'' and ``Stranger in a Strange Land'' (incidentally there is a rock song based on this book, but I only heard it once about 5 years ago, and don't remember anything about it.) Here's a question that I'd like to see discussed: What is the "best" episode of Star Trek? (Movies don't count.) Why? I mention this because WPXI just aired my favorite 2 hours ago. My vote: ``Mirror, Mirror''. Except for the initial incident which set up the episode, (an ion storm sent Kirk, Scott, McCoy, and Uhura into a parellel universe while they were beaming up) everything seemed fairly real. No blasts equivelent to 90 photon torpedos were absorbed by the Enterprise shields, no alien creatures burned "NO KILL I" into the ground. None of this kneejerk extra killing went on. True, some of them killed each other, but killing an officer would undoubtedly been unsafe for a security guard on the ISS Enterprised. When Sulu and his three security guards threatened to do away with the good guys, Kirk's women (Marlena?) killed the guards and left Sulu alive, but then they were holding phasers and he just had a knife. Notably, none were killed during the first ten minutes of the show. More to the point, all the characters seemed to act in a very reasonable way. Notably, Captain Kirk's was angered with the mercenary from Chechov's(sp) guard who saved betrayed Checkov to save Kirk and then expected a promotion with Kirk. Kirk also took risks to avoid killing the Halkans, spared Checkov, and fought to convince the evil Spock that the Empire was wrong. Spock's actions all seems perfectly logical in light of his environment. He still seemed to have that Vulcan curiousity too. I thought it said a lot for McCoy that he was willing to risk not getting back to the real universe in order to save the evil Spock. The clincher: Spock looks really neat with a beard. The flaws I saw were that the evil Kirk was portrayed as being less intelligent than the good Kirk, which seems unjustified; and the Computer was handled in typical hokey manner. Well there's the heart of the matter! How many Star Treks are there that you can only see two flaws in? What, me, verbose? Jim ------------------------------ Date: 26 November 1982 20:37 mst From: Lippard at M.PCO.LISD.HIS (James J. Lippard) Subject: Mushroom Planet books Reply-to: Lippard%PCO-Multics at MIT-MULTICS The Mushroom Planet books were probably my first exposure to science fiction as well. I remember checking them out from the school library in 1972 or 1973. Does anyone know the titles of these books? The author's name was Cameron, I think, I can't remember her first name. I also seem to recall reading another book by the same author, something about unicorns and a note hidden inside a Christmas tree ornament. Jim ------------------------------ Date: 24 Nov 82 13:57:46-PST (Wed) From: decvax!wivax!linus!genradbo!mitccc!cutter at Ucb-C70 Subject: Review: Last Unicorn THE LAST UNICORN is a wonderful movie. Admittedly, I thought I was in for the standard G-rated slop that those intellectual eunuchs (sp?) in Hollywood put out. I was wrong. First off, the screenplay was written by the author of the book it's based on, The Last Unicorn, by Peter S. Beagle. Therefore, it is at *least* 90% accurate to the book. Second, the music is down to minimum: there is only one disgustingly sweet, dripping with sentimentality, totally useless love song, and that is kept short. There are only two other songs, the credit music, and another that floats in and out. Third, the animation is from all those wonderful guys in Japan; the same folks who brought you SPACE CRUISER YAMATO (aka StarBlazers), SPACE PIRATE CAPTAIN HARLOCK, GALAXY EXPRESS 999, etc, so watch for those huge eyes. It is quite good animation, considering the movie was produced by Arthur Rankin and Jules Bass, who brought us such Saturday morning wonders as "Speed Buggy" and "The Jackson Five" (remember that one??). And lastly, the cast. The voices are done by some really good people, among them Angela Landsbury, Alan Arkin, Jeff Bridges, Mia Farrow, Tammy Grimes, and (of course) what animated would be complete without Paul Frees. The plot (if you have never read the book) concerns a unicorn who is obsessed with finding out if she is truly the last unicorn in the world. It's not a very big plot, but it makes for an enjoyable movie nevertheless. TJust the butterfly is worth seeing it ten times over. -- Joe -- (p.s. ElfQuest animated: Fall, 1987/Spring, 1988 !!!!) ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 27 November 1982 14:06-EST From: RG.JMTURN at MIT-MC Subject: In defense of The Last Unicorn In issue 89, John Redford pans "The Last Unicorn" because it is not, in his opinion, faithful to the book, and has less detail than a movie like Star Wars. Unfortunately, he overlooks a critical destinction between SW and TLU. SW was a screenplay before it ever was a book. Lucas could tailor the story to fit into a 90-120 minute medium. The Last Unicorn is a deep and textured story, and there is no way it could be fit into a commercial length. Therefore, Beagle did the only thing possible, he trimmed down to the basic story. In addition, SW is a live film. It's easy to make a live film gritty and full of detail, you just add props. Animated films have to rely on making the limited elements of a cel as good as possible. We're not likely to see Disney quality animation until computer aided animation becomes popular, the love Disney put into his work isn't cost-effective anymore. But TLU comes closer than 90% of the other crud released as "animation". Finally, I think in some important ways, TLU is a better film than SW or ET. Those movies have everything going for them. They have scripts and plots developed specially for the medium. They have happy endings and characters people can indentify with. And they have big budgets to splurge on effects. TLU had a locked in plot way too long for a movie, a bitter-sweet ending which leaves several characters less than happy, and a budget which couldn't be anything over a million or two. It's easy (comparatively) to take a film with all the breaks and make a hit, but to take a story which isn't really meant for the medium, and make a releatively good film out of it takes much more. It usual takes an act of love, and I think Beagle put out what Lucas and Spielberg didn't have to. It may take a powerful artistic vision to surpass a reader's imagination, but it takes love and care to bring a book to the screen with any success, and I intend to respect that effort by nominating TLU for the Hugo (assuming nothing better comes along...) Flaming Forever, James ------------------------------ Date: 27 November 1982 17:07-EST From: Steven A. Swernofsky Subject: The Last Unicorn (movie) Last night I saw the movie "The Last Unicorn." It is animated feature which portrays the quest of a Unicorn, a young magician, a helpful girl, and ultimately, a heroic prince, to find the lost other Unicorns. The movie is a beautiful expression of the legend and magic which goes with good fantasy stories. The movie draws its power from the telling of a tale which is sweet and pretty, and evocative of a proper fantasy world. It builds gradually, as a quest should, from the first doubting by the Unicorn ("Unicorns do not vanish. We may be killed if we leave our forests, but we do not @i(vanish).") to an exciting resolution ("Not all the magic in the world can save her now. That is what heros are for.") The plot is uncomplicated, but still leaves room for challenge, response, and doubt by the characters, and even comic relief. I found the characters to be likeable and well-portrayed. I especially liked Alan Arkin as the young-magician-seeking-wizardry. (I must admit to a feeling of anomaly; after seeing "The Seven Percent Solution" I now associate that voice permanently with the character of Sigmund Freud.) To John Redford (VLSI at DEC-MARLBORO), who said that "[i]t takes a powerful artistic vision to surpass a reader's imagination," I note that a powerful artistic vision should in fact @i(supplement) the reader's imagination! I think that "The Last Unicorn" does just that. -- Steve ------------------------------ Date: 26 Nov 82 22:02-PST From: mclure at SRI-UNIX Subject: 2001 movie sequel? I've heard a dubious rumor: that Kubrick is working on a sequel to 2001 in-line with the 2010 Clarke book recently released. I just can't believe that Stanley would demean himself (and the original movie) to do a sequel; it isn't his style to do two movies on the same subject or even using the same background. Does anyone know the real story on this? ------------------------------ Date: 25 Nov 82 19:13:26-PST (Thu) From: decvax!ittvax!sii!mem at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: The Other Interesting theory (about Boba Fett). I didn't get any impression, though, that Darth Vader was putting up with any insolence from him. And it certainly isn't the case that Darth thinks he is the top living Jedi; remember how he admits that the Emperor is stronger. First in the communication with the Emperor (The emp indicated as how he felt a strong presence in the Force, Darth agrees, all the while kneeling). Next in his conversation during the battle with Luke, Darth says something to the effect that the Emperor knew that if they (Darth and Luke) joined forces, they would be stronger than the Emperor. Thus, an admission of being weaker than the Emperor. Mark E. Mallett ------------------------------ Date: 26 Nov 82 15:02:22-PST (Fri) From: harpo!seismo!rocheste!FtG at Ucb-C70 Subject: The Other Here's one vote for Other=Leia. Other suggestions seem ludicrous. Question: why did Leia know to turn back to rescue Luke? Question: Why has Luke and Leia been like brother-sister (hence Hans as the romantic interest)? Question: Why is it "princess" Leia, i.e. role of royalty/Jedi future rulers of empire after successful revolution???? You can send congrats on insight next may to... FtG at rocheste ------------------------------ Date: 26 Nov 82 18:49:02-PST (Fri) From: decvax!utzoo!watmath!bstempleton at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: The Other Vader is not the top living Jedi in any way, and he knows it: 1) He defers to the emperor (my master) quite clearly. 2) It is unknown who would have won the vader-obiwan fight if obiwan had not given up the fight to enter this higher plane he is in. If obiwan could have beaten vader, then Yoda could too. If the Other was on the cloud city, and yoda could not see the fate of those there when luke left, then they should have had some concern that all their eggs were in one basket. This gives support to the idea that the other is not from the group of central characters, but it could also be Lando, who the ROTJ trailer says plays a big part in the third movie. Remember: Yoda thought Luke was too old for Jedi Training and accepted him because he had already learned from ob1 and the rebels. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Nov 1982 0507-PST From: Henry W. Miller Subject: Battlestar, etc This evening, in the Bay Area, they had a re-showing of one of the best BATTLESTAR GALACTICA episodes, "The Living Legend", starring Lloyd Bridges as Cmdr. Cain, the master of the lost Battelestar Pegesus. This episode had all the right features; the discovery of another Colonial war ship, that was thought to be lost. A conflict between the the respecting commanders. Father vrs son, Father vrs daughter, friend vrs friend, warrior vrs warrior, and all on the same side!!! Baltar, foul being that he is, slipping in his own solid bodily wastes, when he realizes that Cain is after him. Massive alien (CYLON) attack forces moving back and forth, trying to outwit Adama and Cain, who have already figured out how to counteract the Cylon's attack plans. Romance (only implied) between Adama's son, Apollo, and Cain's daughter, Sheba. The destruction of a Cylon base, ("Yuccky Cylons", as my nephew is fond to say), well, what else could you want? Well, I wanted it to live. B.G. died a tragic death. It had the largest budget of any TV series, and yet it died. Why? Dry rot. I mean, every other week, Apollo or Starbuck would crash on some desolate planet, similar to the old west, be made town marshall, and go out to kick some booty. OK, OK, the episodes with the Terra crisis were different, but can you believe Edward Mulhare as an invisible Angel named John? And, Patrick McNee as the Devil? (He did a good job as a surogate) (Has anybody ever figured out what was in the wreckage on that planet?) What I am getting at, is will anyone ever figure out how to do good SF on TV? "Lost in Space" was good until several episodes, then it became the "Dr. Smith, Will Robinson & Robot" show. We are talking a downhill slide. I always enjoyed "Time Tunnel", even though the facts were not quite right. "Buck Rogers" was just fun, even tho it was played in a serious vein. I enjoyed it. "Twlight Zone", sigh. "Night Gallery", my two favorites are: "The Messiah on Mott Street" (starring Eddie G. Robinson), and "They're Tearing Down Tim Riely's Bar". "Outer Limits", one of my favorites is when Carroll O'Connor plays a Martian. (Can you imangine Archie Bunker as an "illegal" Alien?) But, what I am getting at is Dry Rot. Star Trek had two good seasons, then was handed over to a person who had no concept of the series, and, it died. I shan't mention his name, but he was interviewed in a two part article in STARLOG magazine a few months ago. He lambasted Dorthy Fontana (D.C. Fontana, story editor of Star Trek for the second and third season) and David Gerrold, the young unknown who wrote "The Trouble with Tribbles". Now, not to be a name-dropper, but David and D.C. are old friends of mine. His portrayal of them in the interview are about 180 degrees from real life. Therefore I take anything he says with a horse sized salt lick. Star Trek suffered badly in it's third season. Bad scripts, bad directing, and being placed at 10 PM on Friday evening, away from it's main audiance. I have watched "The Powers of Matthew Starr", and while I found it cute, I much preferred "Mr. Merlin"; the interaction between Bernard Hughes and young Clark Brandon was much better. What I am trying to say is that there is a legitimate place for SF on TV. Stop giving us the candy pill; give us the real stuff. -HWM ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 27 November 1982 15:31-PST From: Jonathan Alan Solomon Subject: ST2WOK; inconsistencies; your opinion 1) Dates: It's Romulan Ale, isn't it? Who said Romulans have to obey the same dates the Federation did (Note that the Hebrew Calendar and the Julian one don't use the same year either. If you had a bottle of wine dated 1986 in Hebrew it would be some 3746 years old!) I can't explain #2. I cheated a bit on #1, but that's show biz... --JSol p.s. I thought it was the other way around. I thought they were looking for CETI-ALPHA #5, and found #6 instead (i.e. that #5 blew up, made #6 into #5). If I'm right then there's the bug (in your head), else the bug is real. Anyone know for sure? ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 28-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #91 *** EOOH *** Date: Sunday, November 28, 1982 11:14PM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #91 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 29 Nov 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 91 Today's Topics: Books - Michener's SPACE, Wolfe's THE SWORD OF THE LICTOR, BINARY STAR #5 Queries - explosive decompression T.V. - Battlestar Ponderosa, favorite trek episodes Movies - The Other & ice cream freezers in SW & TESB, prediction for Star Trek III, The Last Unicorn Music - country and western SF ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 Nov 82 16:41:05-PST (Sat) From: harpo!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!inuxd!arlan at Ucb-C70 Subject: Review of Michener's SPACE I think my first effort bombed, so here's more: I think SPACE treated sf generally very well. Weinbaum and Miller, as well as Heinlein and Asimov were given high marke#s. And when one of the astronauts crashed on the moon, his last words were "Blessed St. Leibowitz, let 'm keep on dreamin' down there..." Who could ask for a better recommendation for our genre? --Arlan Andrews --inuxd!arlan --bell labs/abi-to-be --Indianapolis ------------------------------ Date: 28 Nov 1982 1652-CST From: CS.EMERSON at UTEXAS-20 Subject: Sword of the Lictor I have seen the 3rd volume of Gene Wolf's Book of the New Sun in paperback, Sword of the Lictor, in Austin, Texas. Surely, it must also be out now on the East and West coasts. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Nov 82 12:18:29-PST (Fri) From: harpo!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!pur-ee!CSvax.Pucc-H.Physics.retief at From: Ucb-C70 Subject: True Names- Dell true to word An article in fa.sf-lovers back in early sept. was claiming that Dell books was hoarding its last copies of "True Names" in the Binary Star #5 book. It said, though, that if you mailed in an order for it Dell would have to send it. Well, I tried it and sure enough it worked. Well, kind of. The copy I got had it's back slightly broken (either by the mail or by big brother at Dell.) Still, if anyone was thinking of trying it then now you know it really works. Here's the order form that I used. Dwight Bartholomew Dell Books P.O. Box 1000 Pinebrook, N.J. 07058 Please send me ( ) copies of "Binary Star #5" containing "Nightflyers" by George R. R. Martin and "True Names" by Vernor Vinge. I am enclosing $_________ ($2.50 per copy plus $0.75 per copy for postage and handling.) Send check or money order - no cash or C.O.D.'s. Please allow up to 8 weeks for shipment. name ____________________________________ address ____________________________ city ________________________ state/zip ___________________ ------------------------------ Date: 28 Nov 1982 1943-EST From: JHENDLER at BBNA Subject: Explosive decompression My experience as a dive instructor has caused me to look into a lot of matters relating to decompression. I don't know much about the changes from 1-0 ATM, but I'm pretty good on 1-10. Based on this knowledge I'd opine that the only major problems in explosive decompression will be the ear drums (needing roughly 5 psi to rupture, 1 ATM is 14.7 psi) and the lungs. In diving when one comes up the danger is that air will be caught and expand causing a lung blowout. This same could happen in explosive decompression. As a matter of fact, the worst possible thing one could do would be to hold your breathe. This would probably guarantee you an emoblism and a blown out ear drum. Exhale slowly as possible and you should be able to survive with few if any major problems until your air runs out. (there is some questions about how bloodshot your eyes would look. Most of us in diving think it would take longer for this damage to occur than it would taker to run out of breat.) -Jim Hendler ------------------------------ Date: 29 November 1982 00:28-EST From: Keith F. Lynch Subject: Explosive decompression I think the recent discussion about whether astronauts can survive in zero pressure misses the point. The human body is a lot tougher than most people seem to think. I wouldn't be surprised if someone goes streaking on the Moon someday. But if we are in space to stay, spacesuits must be not merely survivable, but reasonably comfortable as well. We should be talking about what the ideal spacesuit environment is, not about what is the minimum survivable. ...Keith ------------------------------ Date: 28-Nov-82 10:23:16-PST (Sun) From: research!sjb@Berkeley Subject: Battlestar Galactica In response to your question of what was in the wreckage on the planet in ''War of the Gods'' (was that the name of the episode?): I have always thought that the wreckage itself was the remains of the Battlestar Pegasus and the great Commander Cain's body (not to be morbid) was lying right in the entryway (or what was left of it). Think of it: 1) The Pegasus engaged Baltar's base star at the end of ''Living Legend,'' and as Cain was not one to give up a battle and Baltar was still living in ''War of the Gods,'' one can assume that the Pegasus was destroyed. 2) Apollo said, when they first saw the wreck on the surface, ''Whatever hit this place must have been as big as a battlestar'' 3) Neither Apollo nor Starbuck wanted Sheba to see what was inside. Now, all three are warriors and have all seen dead and mutilated bodies, so what could be worse? Well, would you want to show someone their father's body? 4) Ibly said that Sheba would see her father again. 5) Ibly didn't want Sheba to go in there either (or for that matter, Apollo or Starbuck!), maybe because he was responsible for the Pegasus' destruction and didn't want Sheba to know that he had killed her father (or even that her father was dead) 6) (My own opinion, not very objective) Very many fans wanted to see the Pegasus and Cain alive at some time in the future, and the writers, realizing that, never did say what the wreckage or what was in it was; in this way, they didn't let the fans down. ------------------------------ Date: 28-Nov-82 4:55PM-EST (Sun) From: Nathaniel Mishkin Subject: The Other Well, I just saw SWTESB for the 3rd time. Up until this time I was fairly convinced that there really was a significant "other" and that Luke Skywalker was a dead end. However, on this 3rd viewing, I gained a new respect for Skywalker. Perhaps he's not the twerpy and irresponsible "I've got to go help my friends, damn the training" guy I thought he was. I mean there are enough times where other characters point out how powerful the force is with him. Maybe he really doesn't need all the training after all. Maybe he's really mega-Jedi and all this "other" stuff is just a feint. In the light of the other (relatively straightforward) plot developments I guess this is pretty unlikely. Oh well. -- Nat ------------------------------ Date: 28 Nov 1982 2122-PST From: Henry W. Miller Subject: The Other My vote for the "other" is Han Solo. These are my reasons: 1) On Hoth, Han handled the light saber like an old pro. 2) It has been established in both movies that Han is a pilot beyond compare. Obi Wan told Luke that he, like his father were good pilots. Apparently, that is an important part of Jedi Training. 3) When Han is confronted with a problem, we doesn't think; he reacts. Remember his "commando charge" on the Death Star, and diving into the asteroid storm in TESB? It is true that Han did not believe in the Force in the first movie, but apparently he does in the second. The Force seems to be with him. Now that he is in the frozen state, it would be a perfect opportunity for Yoda to guide him. On a similar note, I would like to put forth the following theory: If Darth Vader is indeed Luke's father, than I propose that Obi Wan is Darth Vader's father. Like father, like son, eh? It would explain much, such as how Obi Wan knew so much about Luke, and why he never told Luke about Vader (at least not all.) But, I guess we'll all find out next May... -HWM ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 28 November 1982 15:35-PST From: Jonathan Alan Solomon Subject: The Other [rebuttal] [Here's a rebuttal to the vote for Leia] Here's one vote for Other=Leia. Other suggestions seem ludicrous. Question: why did Leia know to turn back to rescue Luke? [Because Luke put the thought into her mind. She believes in Luke, and Luke has better command of the Force than she does. She was thinking about him and sensed Danger. Luke put the image of where he was and how to get there into Leia's mind. It took only that and her belief that it was possible to do this (well, she believes Luke capable of anything, hence she was not shocked to find that thought in her mind).] Question: Why has Luke and Leia been like brother-sister (hence Hans as the romantic interest)? [I'm not even going to try to answer this one. I don't think they were brother/sister, even if they acted like it. It took my sister a LONG while before she would begin to act like that to me, and even that was short lived. I prefer to think of Luke-Leia as "very close friends". You don't have to be brother/sister to be that way.] Question: Why is it "princess" Leia, i.e. role of royalty/Jedi future rulers of empire after successful revolution???? [That has nothing to do with it. Princess Leia Organa is princess by birth to the (now defunct) Organian world (planet). The significance of "Princess" is an acknowledgement of her birthright. She may indeed become Princess of the new "Republic", but that's no reason to call her "Princess" now.] WHAT IS THE FORCE? The Force manipulation of reality by altering beliefs. VADER knows the "art" of installing beliefs in the minds of the weak willed. He can do it on a mass scale. Since he could never percieve himself doing truly evil things, he created the Emperor to do them for him. The Emperor is VADER's bad side. He feeds on VADER's passions. Poltergeists are sometimes thought to be created by kids who are afraid of being caught yet who have some urge to do mischief. Poltergeists are useful because you can put the blame on them and act totally innocent, hiding the reality of the situation from yourself forever. The Force binds the universe together. Every physical object, living or not, has a mapping into some universal array. Ideas are merely conceptions of something not yet explained in this universal array. If you decide that the world is made up of Protons, Neutrons, and Electrons, and there is no strong opposition (counter-example) to that theory, then it holds. Every mind in the universe begins to accept this theory as fact. Once the theory is proven beyond reasonable doubt, it becomes part of our interpretation of reality. The manipulators of the Force (Luke, Vader, Obi-Wan, Yoda) can manipulate that reality because he believes strongly that it is possible. It is therefore said that "The Force is strong in him". They have defined (in their minds) a representation of how to control the beliefs of other beings. To lift the x-wing fighter out of the swamp, all Yoda did was to make Luke believe that it was being done, and then shift the consciousness of both Luke and himself such that the object was moved to the desired location. The hand movements were mere props, a way to help reinforce the belief. At the end it was clear beyond a shadow of a doubt that the object had indeed been moved to a location just outside the swamp. It had been lifted out with the power of the force (as yet not clearly defined to Luke.) He has alot of trouble believing that VADER is his father. There is some reasonable doubt in his mind that VADER could be lying. Even if VADER was telling the truth, Luke seems to have enough control of himself to keep VADER from putting the thought that "his father knows best" along side "VADER is his father", hence it is hard for Luke to draw the conclusion that he should help VADER. Therefore, VADER doesn't have as much control over him as he would have liked. If he had more time to press the issue, he could have eventually convinced Luke that he was his father, *and* what he (VADER) was doing was right and just and Luke should follow in his footsteps. That would have made Luke a powerful ally to the Emperor. ***However*** Just in the nick of time, they entered hyperspace. This separates Luke from VADER and allows Luke to search his own mind for the true answer; to "Search your feelings" as VADER put it. Luke can now do this without the affects of VADER pounding it into him. He can decide who to trust now, VADER or Obi-Wan. If he chooses to trust Obi-Wan and Yoda, then he will be unwilling to let VADER push him off the dark side edge. He will have won. *HE* will be the other hope. WHAT IS THE OTHER HOPE That's right, WHAT, not WHO. The "Other Hope" is an event, a turning of the tide in Luke's mind. This is what is likely to happen in "Revenge of the Jedi". He will go back to Yoda's planet (Degoba) and confront Yoda and Obi-Wan. He will probably demand from Obi-Wan an explanation as to why the "Truth" was hidden from him. [Note: It is inconsequential whether or not VADER is Luke's father. If VADER was lying about this, it could be pointed out to Luke that either VADER or OBI-WAN is lying, and that Luke must decide for himself which to believe. Believing in VADER means accepting the dark side and being swallowed up in it. Believing OBI-WAN is the "Other Hope" (you will note that I am leaning towards this interpretation). If VADER *is* Luke's father. It could be rationalized as a character flaw in Obi-Wan (Jedi or no, Obi-Wan is human). Obi-Wan could have rationalized that Luke would refuse to fight his father so he felt that it was reasonable to withold this information from Luke during the training. Luke still has to decide whether or not to trust Obi-Wan. Luke has an idea that if he DOES decide to side with VADER, there is more than a chance that VADER will double cross him. This can also be interpreted as the "Other Hope".] "Decide you must, how to help you friends" --Yoda. What Yoda saw in the future was a test of this situation. Yoda knew that Luke would be confronted with this, his biggest insecurity. Luke had to get this "lesson" in the field. It could not be taught to him on Degoba. He would not learn it any other way. He has to accept this in order for him to defeat VADER. VADER seems very insecure for a powerful dark-side person, ESPECIALLY when it comes to Luke. Until Luke came around, VADER percieved himself as being the most powerful Jedi around. He knew that Obi-Wan would not come near him because VADER was "stronger" of will than Obi-Wan was (Obi-Wan was getting old and his will was weakening because of it). Obi-Wan at least accepts this. Luke, on the other hand, appears to have alot of security generated from the devotion and love he has for his friends (and the feelings they have for him). LUKE DOES NOT NEED VADER AS MUCH AS VADER FEELS HE NEEDS LUKE. Luke can easily have a stronger will than VADER, but VADER sees a way to break his will, by telling him in a truthful tone that he is Luke's father. Luke is indeed tailspinning because of this, but his senses don't fail him and he recovers admirably. He keeps slipping into it until they get into Hyperspace because VADER is strong at the exact point where Luke is weak. VADER uses this "advantage" to win Luke's trust and confidence. I think Yoda percieves that Luke's love/devotion to his friends (Han Solo, Leia, Chewbacca, the Rebellion, etc. etc.) is stronger in him than the elements of evil which could force him to the dark side. At least this is Yoda's "Other Hope". Again, there is a duality: If VADER is Luke's father, Then VADER turned on the Jedi's by using the dark side. Luke will have to avenge this even if it means killing his father. If VADER is not luke's father, then Luke will avenge VADER's lie, his father's death (at the hands of VADER), *and* VADER's crimes against the Jedi. It should be clear here why VADER being Luke's father is insignificant. Either way, the Jedi will have their revenge against VADER, because Luke will have to defend the Rebellion against VADER and against the Emperor. He will defeat and kill VADER in "Revenge of the Jedi". All of this will happen BEFORE Luke becomes a Jedi. In fact, Luke will decide AFTER the rebellion is over to finish the Jedi training. Han and Leia will marry and Han will live like a king everafter (that's of course what he wants, eh?), free to explore space in the Millenium Falcon... Donations, Royalties, etc. to me, c/o this station (after the movie comes out, of course). [--JSol--] ------------------------------ Date: 27 Nov 82 23:11:41-EST (Sat) From: Gene Spafford Subject: Ice Cream Freezers I assume that they needed some objects to fill out scenes, and they (prop and set designers) used electric ice cream freezers. These are the type that you might use at home, minus the elctrical cord, and spray painted a flat color. The most blatant use in ST:TESB is the scene in the floating city (the name escapes me at the moment) when Lando tells the citizens to run for it. Amidst the people in the background running around is one person with a freezer under his arm (motor grill facing the screen) running about. Saving his peppermint swirl, no doubt. That is not the only such scene. Anybody else seen them? They're sort of like the fnords.... ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 28 November 1982 13:33-EST From: Dave Goodine Subject: Just a note to throw in on Star Wars: Re: The real relationship between Darth Vader and Luke... The word "Vader" is Dutch for "father". Dave(); ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 28 November 1982 14:10-EST From: Dave Goodine Subject: Prediction for Star Trek III I have the following prediction that I thought I might share with the readers, not as a "wait 'till the movie and see if I'm right", but as an idea which might, at the very least, promote some discussion as to the details and loose ends in TWOK. In any event, I would like to see a movie that the following basic plot:(I'd love to see point G. become a Star Trek reality, especially if the producers and/or actors are thinking of wrapping up the whole Star Trek idea. Given the following background from ST:TWOK and the series: a) Kahn is the Bad guy and, though some may argue otherwise, is VERY EVIL(at least so at the very point of his death). b) When the Genesis bomb detonates, Kahn is the closest one to it, therfore we cann assume, in fantasy, that his evilness (and most of his body matter) is distributed over the area which includes the genesis planet. c) Therefore it would not be surprising to find the planet has an evil essence about it. d) Spock is dead. But we're only sure that his body is no longer functioning. We all suspect that somehow, Spock has saved his essence inside McCoy's brain... ("Remember!") e) Spock's body is sent in a photon torpedo case to the "new" planet. f) Spock looks like the devil. Not only is this obvious to the viewer, but it is mentioned in at least one episode of the series ((sorry: no title)The American Flag/U.S. Constitution episode) and I believe, but am not sure, somewhere in TWOK. Anyways... We conclude: g) Therefore, I think that Kahn's evil essence will posess Spock's mind. We already know that Nemoy has signed for the new film, so he's going to be in it in some form or another. Put them together and what do we get:an incredibly intelligent vulcan with an unparalelled cunning and desire for revenge. h) Now this will present a problem for Kirk and the Enterprise crew, (which should be one hour and 30 minutes of the next film) but who is the only one that can really save Spock? g) (The Clincher:) Dr. McCoy, who since the word "go" has been at odds with Spock's ideals of logic and inner-battle against being human, will be the only one who can free him from his demonic enslavement(and save the universe). And thus, 1) DeForrest Kelly finally get's an important part and 2) The longtime rivalry will come to an end in a heroic act of courage. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Nov 1982 2132-PST From: Henry W. Miller Subject: Favorite Trek Episodes I can't really narrow it down to one episode, but "Mirror, Mirror" was indeed one of them. My other favorites are, not in any particular order, are: "A Piece of the Action", "The Trouble with Tribbles", "The Immunity Syndrome", "The Doomsday Machine", and "Balance of Terror". I enjoyed most of the episodes, but these stick out as my favorites. -HWM ------------------------------ Date: 28 Nov 82 09:09:56 EST (Sun) From: Andrew Scott Beals Subject: C&W SF (bletch!) `The Green Hills of Earth' was mentioned in Robert Heinlien's `Farmer In the Sky'. I don't think he had any verses in the book, but it was mentioned a number of times. Oh well, if it's C&W, it can't be too much good (not mutant enough). -andy :-) ------------------------------ Date: 28 Nov 82 14:03-PST From: mclure at SRI-UNIX Subject: Review: The Last Unicorn n511 2256 26 Nov 82 BC-UNICORN-11-27 A MOVIE REVIEW By Roger Ebert (c) 1982 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service) THE LAST UNICORN, with the voices of Alan Arkin, Mia Farrow, Christopher Lee, Jeff Bridges, Paul Frees and Angela Lansbury. Rated G. 3 1/2 stars. Not until I saw ''The Last Unicorn,'' a movie with a special poetry, did I realize how much of the magic has gone out of animated films. I've been reviewing animation recently on the basis of its technique - whether classic Disney ''full animation'' is used, or whether the backgrounds just sit there while the foregrounds move. ''The Last Unicorn'' reminded me that if an animated film contains grace, magic, imagination and humor, the technique isn't that important. That's not to say that this movie doesn't have good technique. It's extraordinarily intriguing to look at. To be sure, every leaf on every tree doesn't sway in the wind; like a lot of modern animators, the makers of ''Unicorn'' use mostly static backgrounds. But the characters and locations in this movie have been drawn so well that they have an eccentric charm entirely apart from their movement. This movie looks drawn by artists, not craftsmen. The language also is special. Many animated films limit themselves to Saturday morning cartoonese. Even a recent, ambitious animated feature, ''The Secret of NIMH,'' made its characters speak a sort of basic, colorless, squeaky-simple English. In contrast, listen to the language of ''The Last Unicorn,'' some of which is surely drawn from the novel by Peter Beagle. Here are words, concepts, rhythms, fancies and conceits to stretch a kid's imagination and give adults something they can listen to instead of just monitor. How did anyone ever get the idea in the first place that a kid should understand every word in a story? The words you didn't know were the ones where the magic lurked! There would be a sentence made up of words you knew, but ending with an amazing collection of syllables like sorcerer or incantation or labyrinth. The story of ''The Last Unicorn'' appealed to me because it was told with such special words and images. It involves a unicorn who fears that she is, indeed, the last of her kind, even though that doesn't make sense since unicorns are supposed to be immortal. But where did the other unicorns go? A bebop butterfly fills her in: They all got chased away by a mysterious red bull. Setting off in search of the bull, the little unicorn is captured by a wicked witch and imprisoned in a carnival zoo. But then she's rescued by a plucky young magician (who is still trying to get the hang of his magic). They travel off to the kingdom where the red bull took the other unicorns, and get involved in a labyrinthine plot involving an old king, a young prince, a skeleton that talks, a magician who schemes and the sad, sad fate of the unicorns. I liked all this stuff. There were actually times when I felt caught up in this story in ways that hadn't happened to me at an animated film in a long time. ''The Last Unicorn'' has such narrative strength and such visual and verbal imagination that it represents a real triumph of storytelling - making me realize that, for quite a while now, animation, even good animation, has been depending on technology rather than on dreams. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 29-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #92 *** EOOH *** Date: Monday, November 29, 1982 8:37PM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #92 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 30 Nov 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 92 Today's Topics: Books - Chalker's "Wellworld" series, Harrison's The Stainless Steel Rat, Wolfe's "The Book of the New Sun", Asimov's Foundation's Edge, Mushroom Planet, Binary Star, Hubbard's Battlefield Earth Queries - explosive decompression T.V. - favorite Star Trek episodes, Dr. Who players Movies - the Other in SW/TESB, Dark Crystal, Blade Runner Music - "Green Hills of Earth", Childhood's End ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 Nov 1982 10:05 EST Subject: re : Chalker's "Wellworld" series From: Chris Heiny I read these, and have a rather low opinion of them. The first book was good, the next two were OK, but the last two were awful hokey. I found Chalker's lapses in plot consistency and use of `scientific' buzzwords annoying to the point of distraction. I'm still not sure what/who Nathan Brazil is : human? God? bloodred turnip with tentacles? Wandering Jew? pathological liar? It strikes me that he spent a lot of time on the first book, had an idea for two more, which he wrote in about half the time; and then decided to write two more, which he slapped together in about a month, using previous characters to avoid having to think of too many new ones. chris ------------------------------ Date: 29 Nov 1982 10:50:07 EST (Monday) From: Ben Littauer Subject: stainless steel rat and shrinking. I've just finished the Stainless Steel Rat for President. I did not enjoy it as much as the previous volumes. I haven't read the others in quite a while, but my impression was that DeGriz was not quite as arrogant and infallible in the earlier stories. There were some nice lines (especially the names for the SSR in other languages, which is wonderful), but I was somewhat bored with the repetition of "trap the rat, rat bites" episodes. I also had this odd feeling that the DeGriz family reminded me of something, and I finally realized that they are quite similar to (though more dangerous than) the Addams family (especially as portrayed in Addams' cartoons, as opposed to TV). I would recommend this one for SSR afficionados only. The (Incredible) Shrinking Man (Woman). I think that these were based on a novel called The Shrinking Man by Richard Matheson (I believe that's the name). I haven't read this one in a long time, either, but I remember that it wasn't bad, and that the main plot device (not counting various adventures at different sizes) was wondering what would happen when he shrunk to zero... -ben- ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 29 Nov 1982 09:33-PST From: Mike Urban Subject: Book of the New Sun As someone noted, Sword of the Lictor (third in Gene Wolfe's "Book of the New Sun") is now available in Timescape paperback. I bought it at Loscon this weekend. Citadel of the Autarch (the fourth and final volume) is the current SF Book Club selection (along with Life, the Universe and Everything. What a pairing!!). At Chicon, Gene Wolfe said that he planned an additional novel (probably only one volume) dealing with events after the end of the Book of the New Sun. The Book of the New Sun is outstanding. Because it was completely written and edited before publication (like Lord of the Rings), it is not really a series but is a long novel that has submitted to the economics of publishing. So people like Our Beloved Editor who don't like "series" stories will find it a different beast entirely. Gene Wolfe will be autographing at Dangerous Visions bookstore in Los Angeles on Tuesday evening. Mike ------------------------------ Date: 29 Nov 1982 1655-EST From: Stephen R Balzac Subject: Foundations Edge and beyond Having just read FOUNDATIONS EDGE, I think it's a very interesting book. It is, however, somewhat weird toward the end when stuff from THE END OF ETERNITY, THE REST OF THE ROBOTS, and PEBBLE IN THE SKY get into it. Asimov as much as admitted that he set up the book to allow a sequel. Based on the events and loose ends left in EDGE, and his other books, especially PEBBLE IN THE SKY, I think it will be something like this: Remembering that in PEBBLE, a Terran scientist discovered a "mind-expander" which had the effect of awaking high level mentalic ability in people, and that Terra resolved to keep this secret from the rest of the galaxy (which was almost destroyed by the Terrans, but for the actions of the protagonist, a 20th century man transported into the future) it would appear that lost Earth is the seat of a group of high level mentalics. They have been around longer that both Gaia and the Foundations, and also have the advantage that their powers can be awakened at full strength almost instantly. Gaia was able to hide from the Second Foundation; Earth could very likely hide its power from both. And so the fifth book will involve Gaia and the Second Foundation both hunting for Earth, which has secretly been manipulating the galaxy for its own purposes. Poor Hari Seldon. I'll bet he had no idea there was so much going on in the galaxy when he devised his Plan. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1982 1326-CST From: marick at DTI (Brian Marick) Subject: Mushroom Planet, Binary Star, Anthony Villiers The Mushroom Planet books were written by Eleanor Cameron. There are, I believe, about five of them. The first is "The Wonderful Voyage to the Mushroom Planet" (or thereabouts) and the last is something of the form "X, Y, and Mr. Bass". As I recall, the books get more sophisticated as the series progressed -- my ten year old self thought the last was very adult. Since then, I've reread only the first book. Alas, the memory was better than the real thing, so I've not reread any of the others. I tried ordering the "Binary Star" with the Vernor Vinge story; Dell said they were out of stock. At least one bookstore in the country (Uncle Hugo's in Minneapolis) had one copy last week. Alexei and Cory Panshin have started their own small press. Coming soon (next year?) will be "The Universal Pantograph", the long-awaited fourth book in the Anthony Villiers series. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Nov 1982 0145-EST From: Peter G. Trei Subject: Battlefield Earth (for SFL) [Permanent Committee to Overthrow the Government next Thursday after lunch] (Yes Virginia, there ARE SF-Lovers in New York) Last week I dropped into The Science Fiction Shop. I noticed 'Battlefield Earth' in the hardcover section, and asked about it. It seems that the book has zero to do with Scientology, and here are some more-or-less accurate quotes from the folks there: "How bad is it? It's SO bad......" "It's selling like hotcakes." "Bad enough for five books." "We've received offers of $250 for the signed boxed edition." [Which does not exist yet and lists for $125] "I'm thinking of getting a signed copy as an investment. I normally dont like to buy literature purely for profit, but this does'nt count." From Baird's as-yet-unpublished reveiw: "Not only has Mr. Hubbard not written any science fiction in the last thirty years, he apparently hasent read any." (All these quotes are a week stale, and possibly inaccurate. I apologise for both misquotes and any letterbombs.) Peter Trei @cu20c PS: Columbia is not on the net, so dont try to reply directly to me. PT ------------------------------ Date: 29 Nov 1982 11:39 PST From: LFeinberg.es at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: explosive decompression Clarke has written a short story involving the process of a man who must go unprotected into space for a short time. In an interview, he discussed the story, and what is and isn't known about it the matter. The effects of the zero pressure didn't seem to be as much a problem as the direct exposure to sunlight (this took place near the Earth, 2001 takes place much further away). Sorry, I can't locate the story or interview. The novelization of 2001 might also discuss it. Lawrerence ------------------------------ Date: 29 Nov 1982 15:18 EST From: Denber.WBST at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: Explosive Decompression "30 seconds at a probability factor of 8,137,445 to one against and falling, which just happens to be the phone number of a very good..." A very good *what*? Statistician? Burly spaceship guard? For a good time call...? Don't keep us in suspense any longer. - Michel ------------------------------ Date: 29 Nov 1982 12:47 PST From: GMeredith.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Decompression There's a big debate on SPACE@MIT-MC regarding space suits, low pressure suits and no suits. If you want any of it let me know. I don't care to clutter a lilerary DL with a load of hardware talk. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Nov 1982 09:49 EST From: Kovnat.HENR at PARC-MAXC Subject: Best ST episode I don't remember the title but my vote for the best Star Trek episode goes to the following story: In this episode McCoy accidently injects himself with a very strong drug during a magnetic storm whose source seems to be the surface of the planet that the Enterprise is orbiting. McCoy subsequently goes mad, beams down and jumps through a mysterious machine which shows all of time, both past and future. Kirk and Spock follow McCoy into the machine and end up in depression era USA a few years before the outbreak of WWII. They wind up in a soup kitchen run by (I can't remember her name) but during the story, Kirk falls in love with her. Spock meantime determines that this woman has two possible futures: either she will become the leader of a national peace movement that will delay the entrance of the US into the war, resulting in Nazi victory and therefore Kirk's and Spock's world will never exist, OR she gets killed in a car accident. Without spoiling more most of you probably recognize this episode by now. It was written by Harlan Ellison and is not only my favorite ST episode but also in my opinion one of the best episodes of any TV series ever. Why? In one hour the story flows from danger to humor (Kirk trying to explain Spock's ears to a 1930's policeman) to love to frustration (Kirk's because of his knowledge of the two fates of the woman and Spock's because of his trying to repair his tricoder "with little more than stone-age knives" (this quote may be slightly off) -- one of the few times we Spock actually get what may be called angry). It all hangs together and flows. The writing is a cut above standard TV fare thanks to HE and finally (this may be apochryphal) the episode is noteworthy because it is the first time that the word "Let's get the HELL out of here" was heard on a prime-time network show. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Nov 1982 1024-EST From: DAVID.LEWIN Subject: Favorite Star Trek episode My vote goes to "The City at the Edge of Forever" by Harlan Ellison. In essence it is a time paradox story, nicely done, pitting Kirk's sense of duty (to ensure that his future occurs) against the life of the woman he has fallen in love with. ------------------------------ From: duntemann.wbst Date: 29-Nov-82 14:22:32 EST Subject: Random notes Time to purge the tubeside notebook buffer into the network: There was a whole stack of paperback copies of Sword of the Lictor at the Left Bridge Bookshop in Fairport New York as of today's lunch hour; they should be percolating westward in the next few days. I had the good fortune of having dinner with Gene Wolfe a couple of months ago, and asked him how many of his "fancy words" he had invented. Answer: None. All are either completely legitimate archaisms, or else portmanteau combinations of legitimate words. No smerps! I checked more than a few in the OED and located them all. What a mind! The "fifth book in the series" (it really isn't part of the series) will probably be called The Urth of the New Sun, and it will contain Severian. However, the story line is completely independent of the first four books. I believe that Beowolf Shaeffer once had to schlep Carlos Wu across hard vacuum in a Larry Niven story which I think was called "The Borderland of Sol"{ 1974} and cautioned Wu to keep his mouth OPEN. One wonders why... I remember (God knows why) a beebop song from the early sixties called "Haunted House." It was largely about monsters and such, but had this peculiar verse: From outer space there came a man, Drank the hot grease from the frying pan, "Hey that's hot!" I began to shout-- Drank the hot coffee right from the spout... If we've dug this far for SF in populasr music, I think we may have at long last struck bottom. Rather than poll on the best Star Trek episode, how about the worst? My top five votes all go to the silly thing about the Yangs and the Comes. Having to watch Kirk receite the Pledge of Allegience to the Flag is about as embarrassing as having your maiden aunt inform you that your fly is open. Or worse. TV SF suffers from dry rot because most TV SF is series based, and in a series you cannot allow your characters to either gain or lose anything important from episode to episode. Character evolution is what makes good fiction, in any genre or any medium. TV could do excellent low budget SF by adopting an anthology format similar to Night Gallery and resisting the temptation to play toward the kiddies. But don't look for it; I gave up TV as a whole to the scrap pile years ago. Nothing yet beats the printed word. Cherish it. --Jeff Duntemann (Duntemann.wbst@PARC-MAXC) ------------------------------ Date: 29 Nov 1982 16:14:50 CST (Monday) From: Jeff Bowles Subject: Favorite Star Trek episode Sorry, guys. The BEST Star Trek episode was "The Menagerie." Jeff ------------------------------ Date: 28 Nov 82 23:44:33-PST (Sun) From: Stephen Willson Subject: the other From Rolling Stone, June 12, 1980, an interview with George Lucas (by Jean Vallely): Jean: "... Let's get back to 'The Empire Strikes Back' for a moment. In the movie, Ben says Luke is the last hope and Yoda says, no, there is another." Lucas: "Yes. [Smiling] There is another, and has been for a long time. You have to remember, we're starting in the middle of this whole story. There are six hours' worth of events before STAR WARS, and in those six hours, the 'other' becomes apparent, and after the third film, the 'other' becomes apparent quite a bit." Jean: "What will happen to Luke?" Lucas: "I can't say. In the next film, everything gets resolved one way or the other. Luke won the first battle in the first film. Vader won the second battle in the second film, and in the third film, only one of them walks away. We have to go back to the very beginning to find out the real problem." Also, I remember someone on this list dialed in and said that when Lucas saw the speculation that had gone on on the list his response was, "Remember the clone wars. Anything could have happened." or words to that effect. So, based on all this, my speculation is: 1) Luke marries the Emperor's daughter to unify the Empire. 2) The other is an as yet unknown character. 3) The real meat of this is the Father vs. Son conflict. How is it that a good guy like ob1 would hide the truth from Luke about his Father? He wouldn't. But Luke searches his feelings in TESB and seems convinced that Vader is his father (Vater in German means, "father".) Ergo, both facts are true courtesy of the Clone Wars. Luke will kill his pseudo-father. 4) Outside prediction: most of the final battle will take place at the Emperor's place. The general scheme will be similar to Episode IV: while the remaining rebel forces battle the Emperor's forces, the real battle will be happening between Luke, ob1, Yoda, Darth, the Emperor, and the "other" (the Emperor's daughter who will no doubt slay the Emperor as a big surprise). This last bit because Jedi don't seek revenge, and Lucas, who seems to have some Zen in him, no doubt wants the evil forces to be self-destructive. 5) Leia is the daughter of a Senator. She's not bigtime royalty. She and Han will get married the same time Luke and the "other" do. -- In hopes of inspiring discussion, -- Steve Willson -- UC Irvine ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 29 November 1982 11:53-EST From: Skef Wholey Subject: The end of Luke's twerpiness and his clonely dad From: Nathaniel Mishkin Subject: The Other Perhaps he's not the twerpy and irresponsible "I've got to go help my friends, damn the training" guy I thought he was. Indeed. It looked to me like Obi Wan was acting (badly) when he was trying to get Luke to stay. Seems that his leaving training could have been a form of test or a part of his training. He did what was right and good, not what his teachers wanted him to. Also, somewhere between the beginning and the end of the movie people (like Han) stop calling him ``kid.'' It looks like he's matured or something. How about that! Character development! From: Jonathan Alan Solomon Subject: The Other [rebuttal] On a similar note, I would like to put forth the following theory: If Darth Vader is indeed Luke's father, than I propose that Obi Wan is Darth Vader's father. Like father, like son, eh? Hey, people! Why have you all forgotten the CLONE WARS? I'll bet good money that there's at least one clone in the Luke, Darth, Obi Wan, and Luke's dad group. To explain Darth being Luke's daddy: Luke could be a clone of Darth, or Darth could be a clone of Luke's real dad (whoever he was). --Skef ------------------------------ Date: 29 Nov 1982 12:08 PST From: LFeinberg.es at PARC-MAXC Subject: SW:ROTJ Darth Vader wants help from his son overthrowing the Emperor, so together they can be new Emperors. Luke Skywalker wants to end the evil Empire. Together they will defeat the Emperor, but both (or at least Vader) will perish in the process, cleaning up the loose ends. The "other", the new hope of the Jedi, will carry the flame on to the next bunch of movies. Lawrerence ------------------------------ Date: 29 Nov 1982 1528-EST From: Gregg Wolff Subject: Dr. Who Dr. Who 1:WILLIAM HARTNELL Dr. Who 2:PATRICK TROUGHTON Dr. Who 3:JON PERTWEE Dr. Who 4:TOM BAKER Dr. Who 5:PETER DAVISON Basing my information on facts revealed in The Three Doctors episode there were no other incarnations [i.e. not covered in the series]. Peter Cushing also played the Doctor in two feature length films released in the 1960's. Peter Davison I believe can be seen in the HHGTHG TV Series playing the Dish of the Day. One other additional note: The BBC has just released a few more Dr. Who stories including one story from each of the incarnations. -Gregg ------------------------------ Date: 29 Nov 1982 1020-EST From: DAVID.LEWIN Subject: "Green Hills of Earth" Ralph Winter, an important figure in experimental jazz, has set the words of Heinlein's "Green Hills of Earth" to music in a new work, "Missa Gaia" ("Earth Mass"), which he recorded at the Grand Canyon and in the Cathedral of St. John the Divine in New York. In an interview on NPR's "All Things Considered" he explained the genesis of this work, and mentioned the story of Rhysling, the blind spaceman/balladeer. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Nov 1982 9:44:12 CST (Monday) From: Jeff Bowles Subject: Eskimo Nell? There's a particular rhyme/song/something to the title of "Eskimo Nell". I've got a friend who wants a copy. Can anybody help me out? If it's what I think, probably you shouldn't send a copy to the SF-LOVERS list. If there's sufficient interest, I will send copies to interested parties... Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 29 Nov 1982 09:52-PST Subject: The Dark Crystal The Dark Crystal was first announced in a big way at Worldcon last year in Denver, where there were storyboards and stills and the like. At that time, principal photography was just being finished, and a summer release was anticipated. Would YOU have wanted to release a fantasy film this summer? They wisely decided to wait and build their publicity for a Dec 17 release. At Chicon, an additional presentation was given, including a 6-minute clip which, the audience was told, was from the completed film. The film is your basic quest story in which the young hero Jen and the heroine Kiri (the last of the Gelfling race) are called upon the end the power of the evil Skeksis, who use the Dark Crystal for their evil purposes. The original artwork by Brian Froud ("Faeries") has been skillfully realized by Jim Henson's artisans. A museum exhibit of the characters, sets, and props (artifacts?) from the film was recently on display in Los Angeles at a folk-art museum. There was also a video-tape promotion film (this film was also at Chicon and on the streets of Westwood Village, in different versions). If the story is any good at all, this will be a wonderful film; the "look" of it is beautiful, at least. And no, Frank Oz is NOT the voice of Augrah (sp?), the earlier publicity films were "rough cuts" in which he provided an interim voice that made Augrah seem like Yoda's grandmother. Mike ------------------------------ Date: 28 Nov 82 14:24:42-EST (Sun) From: J C Patilla Subject: blade runner query, kid sf I just got around to seeing "Blade Runner" this weekend, and I now dimly recall an argument in this digest about smallpox scars - I don't remember any discussion of such from the movie. Did I miss something, or was the print I saw missing something ? Re juvenile sf - I read the Mushroom Planet books, too, and had completely forgotten them until seeing them mentioned here. Another excellent book, as I recall, was "A Wrinkle In Time". Fairly good adventure, science involvement, non-sexist plot, neat aliens. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Nov 1982 1602-PST From: Don Voreck Subject: Correction Correction Childhood's End My claim was that the song was about the book. I only told about parts of the book that the song seemed to talk about. YES the children DO leave in space ships contrary to the contradiction and they also return to the earth as and destroy it as David Lewin described. Sure my spoiler leaves out most of the book, including the conclusion. I only gave the parts of the plot which I felt were relevant to the song. It is a valid explanation of that sub plot and a huge spoiler. It is a very long book and a very short verse. Don ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 30-Nov SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #93 *** EOOH *** Return-Path: <@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA> Date: Tuesday, November 30, 1982 10:00PM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #93 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 1 Dec 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 93 Today's Topics: Books - Gilliand's * from Rosinante, Vinge's Refugees from Heaven's Belt, Childhood's End spoiler, Adams' HHGttG, Chalker's Diamond & Wellworld series, Wolfe's Book of the New Sun series Queries - decompression, minimal spacesuits Themes - shrinking T.V. - HHGttG, favorite Star Trek episodes Movies - Star Trek, Revenge of the Jedi trailer, the Other in Star Wars / TESB ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 30 Nov 1982 18:31:11 EST (Tuesday) From: David Mankins Subject: * from Rosinante This weekend I read three excellent books, all by Alexis A. Gilliland: "Revolution from Rosninante," "Long Shot for Rosinante," and "The Pirates of Rosinante." Mundito (little world) Rosinante is an O'Neill space colony orbiting the asteroid Rosinante, constructed by the government of the North American Union. Of the two planned companion munditos, Don Quixote is destroyed in a labor dispute over back pay, and Sancho Panza is proxmired. The three books tell the story of how Rosinante becomes independent, and then how it takes on the Japanese Navy in an undeclared, bloodless war. The heroes of this book are Engineers (plus one plucky strategist and a computer prone to prophecy and Humphrey Bogart imitations). They think nothing of building a 20 kilometer long, solar-mirror pumped gas laser in a pinch (but then, they're used to building 7km-in-diameter, 50km-long habitats and they still have the equipment lying around). These books are also about politics, they're sort of Allen Drury novels in the sky. Fortunately, they don't suffer the liability that Drury's or Pournelle's novels do--the villains are painted in shades of grey, not swaths of black, and have believable motives, and aren't simply Evil. Some of the villains aren't even villains, and some of the heroes just happen to be on the right side. In other words, just like real people. Any way, if you're looking for some Space Fiction, with space ships and places to go in them, these books are pretty good. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Nov 1982 18:53:08 EST (Tuesday) From: David Mankins Subject: Joan D. Vinge's 'Refugees from Heaven Belt' Heaven Belt is the perfect planetary system for space colonists: one gigantic asteroid-belt, with a single gas-giant. With all those asteroids you don't have to dig very deep to get all the minerals you need. But, what happens when you have a civil war? On a planet, like Earth, if you have a war that blows you back to the stone-age, well, tough. But you'll live. In space, where EVERYTHING is manufactured--even your air and water--you can't afford to get blown back to the 20th Century, let alone the stone age, or everybody dies. That's the point of ``Outcasts of Heaven Belt'' by Joan D. Vinge. It's a story about a ship sent to Heaven Belt by people on a colonized world (called Morningside), hoping to do some trading with the people of the fabulously-rich Heaven Belt system. When they get there, they find that, due to a civil war (the "reasons" for which are never explained) some 30 years ago, the system has been deteriorating, things going unrepaired, etc. The resources of the system are being exhausted simply trying to keep things running. When the ship from Morningside arrives, the rival powers of the Demarchy and the Grand Harmony are each desperate to get ahold of it, and use it to keep their people alive just a little longer. The people on the ship, who have lost most of their number in the initial attack by the Grand Harmony, just want to go home. In order to return home, the people on the ship have to refuel, which means contact, and the danger of capture. But they also can't leave the system, with its hundreds of thousands of people, to die. Good book. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Nov 82 20:30:14 EST (Mon) From: Fred Blonder Subject: Re: Decompression From: CMP.TAYLOR at UTEXAS-20 It seems to me that if you kept your mouth shut, you should be able to survive zero atomosphere for about 30 seconds. I suspect that if you opened your mouth that the lungs would be much the worse for wear. I doubt that keeping your mouth shut is what you want. For one thing, how would you close your nose, and if you didn't, what good would closing your mouth do? The navy trains submarine crewmembers for emergency underwater evacuation by having them enter a deep water tank, through an airlock at the bottom, and float to the surface with the aid of a life preserver or some such device. As they drift toward the surface they must continually expell air from their lungs to avoid injury. The pressure change they go through in this exercise is several atmospheres. I'm not sure what kind of injury you would suffer from attempting to hold a mere one atmosphere in your lungs. On the other hand, if you let all the air out of your lungs you might run the danger of having your lungs collapse. Probably the ``right'' thing to do is to retain just a little air in your lungs. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Nov 1982 6:38:15 CST (Tuesday) From: Mike Meyer Subject: Minimal spacesuits The perfect (and minimal) spacesuit is, of course, none at all. Therefore, ent, as that rder to determine how often and how much life support has to be provided to keep you alive in a vacuum. There have been various stories that use this idea. In particular, `Forever Enemy' by Howard L. Myers in the December '70 Analog describes the adventures of a person who . His own life-support system includes a gas converter in his throat, a stomach balloon, builtin radio, and (interstellar) transport system. There is a story (sorry, no author/title) that opens with an attack force of people so outfitted materializing above a planet. I like that image... A more interesting question than what a perfect spacesuit is is how close can we come to the above system in the next couple ofdecades? ------------------------------ Date: 30 Nov 82 20:29:34 EST (Tue) From: Fred Blonder Subject: Re: explosive decompression From: LFeinberg.es at PARC-MAXC Clarke has written a short story involving the process of a man who must go unprotected into space for a short time. . . . The effects of the zero pressure didn't seem to be as much a problem as the direct exposure to sunlight. I also read that story (title unknown). It concerned a dormitory compartment for the construction crew working on a partially completed space station. They wake up one ``morning'' to find that they are in zero gravity and realize the compartment must have seperated from the rotating space station. Being sensible types, since they have no space suits in the compartment, they don't open any of the doors which normally lead to adjoining compartments. Meanwhile, the others at the station notice what has happened, rush out to rescue them, and communicate with them by banging on the compartment walls in morse code (or some such primitive means) to tell them when they have a spaceship with an open airlock door lined up as best they can with a compartment door. What about other forms of radiation in open space? ------------------------------ Date: 30 Nov 1982 8:18:35 EST (Tuesday) From: Drew M. Powles Subject: childhood's end...possibly a spoiler to Don Voreck: correction on the correction of your correction ,etc. Read your book again.......They do not leave in spaceships. The centaur creatures leave the earth after they have done their part: somehow allowing the Overmind (correct name?) to influence the children. The earth is destroyed as the children are raised to a higher plane to join the Overmind (hence Childhood's End.....the end of the Childhood of the Human Race) All the adults have long since died out, but one lone human adult who had stowed away in a centaur spaceship and then returned with very little of his relative time passing because of the time affects of the centaur method of space travel describes the destruction of the earth and the raising of the children to the Overmind over a communication device to the centaurs as they leave the earth (bit of a long sentence there, i'm afraid). as i said, take a look at it again, closely. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Nov 1982 1542-EST From: Stephen R Balzac Subject: shrinking Gulliver's travels might be considered examples of shrinking and growing, although in a metaphorical sense, when Gulliver goes to Lilliput and Brobdingnag. Also, there is a series of books about the "Micronauts". I have never read any, but they do seem to involve shrinking. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Nov 1982 18:26:25 EST (Tuesday) From: David Mankins Subject: good news for HHGttG fans Good news, Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galaxy fans, Douglas Adams, in an interview this evening on ``All things considered'' revealed that, after he finished the second book (``Restaraunt at the end of the universe'' he swore on the souls of his many ancestors that he would not write a third HHG book. Now that he's finished the third book, he's swearing on the souls of the ancestors of many of his friends that he won't write a fourth, but, he hasn't started on it yet.... ------------------------------ Date: 30 Nov 82 17:28:22-EST (Tue) From: David Axler Subject: Shrinking in HHGttG As usual, HHGttG takes a standard sf cliche (the aliens who are deadly, but tiny), and warps it beautifully into its plot. It's not really 'shrinking', but it's still well done: The episode (inserted as Arthur is being led into the bowels of Magrathea by Slartibartfast) I refer to is that dealing with the war between the V'l'hurg and the G'gugvunt [sp?], caused by Arthur's line "I've been having problems with my lifestyle lately" being sucked through a wormhole in space. When the combatants recognize that it's actually due to an ape descendant that they're fighting, they combine their fleets and send them off to destroy Earth. Alas, on arrival the entire fleet is swallowed by a dog! The TV version of this scene, by the way, has the battle set up as an arcade game -- a very nice touch. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Nov 82 17:47:30-EST (Tue) From: David Axler Subject: Miscellaneous Comments 1) "The Citadel of the Autaurch" is not really "currently available" from the sf book club. They announced it for their November selection, but this mailing had gone out before the publisher and author announced a 2-3 month delay because Wolfe wanted to make some revisions. So, we'll see when it actually appears... 2) I think the "Mushroom Planet" books were written by Eleanor Estes Cameron, who also wrote "The Shy Stegosaurus of Cricket Creek," another fine kids sf book. 3) I've enjoyed Jack Chalker's 'Well World' and 'Diamond' series, though he's far from being a perfect writer. His ideas are, quite often, a few steps ahead of his technique, especially in the realm of characterization. In some ways, his stuff is pure "Golden Age" sf, though leavened a bit by contemporary mores and a greater interest in the 'soft' sciences. By the way, many (tho' not all) of the various hexes in the 'Well World' have names which are very definitely anagrams of those of major sf authors and/or characters; they're fun to check out. 4) SF in different media: I think it's important to note that, with the possible exception of some forms of visual media, almost all sf that isn't in written form really starts out that way, and is then translated. Movies, radio plays, and the like all have scripts, from which the director/cast/producer/etc. must develop the visual possibilities. Many illustrations, esp. if they're directly connected with the publishing industry (books/mags), are also related to a piece of text. [And, when they're not, the authors often get annoyed; e.g.Donald Kingsbury's ire about the fact that the cover to "Courtship Rite" did not show tattoos that were anything like those described in his novel.] Much of the translation is dependent on the work of the "special effects artists," of whom little has been said in sfl. Overall, they're an impressive crew. The best source of info for what's going on in that field, by the way, is not 'Cinefantastique,' but rather a lesser-known magazine, 'Cinefex,' which does some superb reporting. Of course, both have a similar problem -- they're dependent (symbiotically?) on what the various studios will provide them in terms of illustrations and prints; this does, though, provide the studios with extra publicity. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Nov 82 19:58:06 EST (Mon) From: Fred Blonder Subject: Re: ST2WOK; inconsistencies From: Reed B. Powell CETI-ALPHI START SYSTEM: They land on Planet #5, but think it is #6. Why? . . . the explosion would indeed . . . have shifted the orbit of at least #5 . . . This certainly would have been noted by astronomers SOMEWHERE. According to the book, CA-5 and CA-6 were a binary planet. The explosion of CA-6 would have a tremendous effect on CA-5 in this case. Also according to the book, the only previous missions to the Ceti Alpha system were the Enterprise's visit (which was kept secret to prevent anyone from trying to rescue Khan), and an unreliable robot probe some 100 years earlier, so the Reliant's crew wouldn't have known for certain what to expect. But then, why did Checkov forget about Khan? Was it because he wasn't in the ``space seed'' episode and so never knew in the first place? I am annoyed at movies which require you to read the book to get the full story. This just means that the movie can't stand on its own. ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 30 November 1982 12:16-EST From: Vince Fuller Subject: Best ST episode Didn't this episode ("City on the Edge of Forever") win a Hugo award? I agree that it was one of the best episodes - it has many of the aspects of a good SF/Trek plot (some room for speculation, paradoxes, and a touch of humor) and seems to be very "together". Still, my vote for favorite episode goes to "Mirror, Mirror" (a Hugo award nominee, but not a winner) which I thought was interested since it showed an interesting alternative look at what the Federation (Empire) and all of its constituents could have been. Well, I like both time travel and alternate world SF, so both of these rate high on my list. --vaf ------------------------------ Date: 30 Nov 1982 1538-EST From: Stephen R Balzac Subject: Favorite ST episode My favorite ST episode is a toss-up between Trouble with Tribbles, A Piece of the Action, Balance of Terror, and the City at the Edge of Forever, in no particular order. This list is also likely to increase or decrease withour warning depending on my mood when I see a particular episode. ------------------------------ Date: 30 November 1982 23:42-EST From: Charles F. Von Rospach Subject: Best ST episode That is City on the Edge of Forever, Written by Harlan Ellison. The original script won him a hugo, and is much superior to the (very well done indeed) story that made it to tv. ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 1982 (Wednesday) 0022-EDT From: KENNEA at Wharton-10 (Richard Kenneally) Subject: "...out of stone knives and bear skins!" "The City on the Edge of Forever" is a good choice for best ST episode. It won one award (HUGO?) and was the only award winning ST episode if memory serves me. One of my favorites was discussed earlier--"Journey to Babel". The ambassador was Gav, a Tellerite. He was killed by Thelev, an Orion surgically altered to resemble the antenna bearing Andorians. Thelev used the ancient Vulcan method of neckbreaking known as Tal-Shaya (sp?) to put the blame on Spock's father. I enjoyed this one for the aliens and the background into Spock's family. I also liked "Menagerie", loved the Horta, and enjoyed meeting Jack the Ripper. Worst goes to "The Omega Glory" with "Miri" (remember seeing the North American continent on another planet?) a close second. My favorite scene of all I think was the look on the US Air Force security guard when he was beamed aboard the Enterprise and given chicken soup. -]Rick [The Nicholls encyclopedia gives the following information about Star Trek Hugos: Dramatic presentation 1967 - The Menagerie Dramatic presentation 1968 - City on the Edge of Forever Additionally the latter won the Writers' Guild of America award for outstanding script 1967-68. -- Stuart] ------------------------------ Date: 30 November 1982 0533-EST From: Don Provan at CMU-10A Subject: raging movie notes has everyone forgotten so soon that we never *see* spock's body after the farewell with kirk? why's everyone so sure it's in that photon torpedo shell? (by the way, that "coffin that has the same shape as a photon torpedo" has "photon torpedo" written on the side.) i've been sure that Luke and Leia are brother and sister since seeing SWII for the first time. it *has* to be, because there's no other way out of the love triangle without Luke "losing" Leia, something that just can't fit into the SW genre. just because Leia thinks of that deceased gentleman on the deseased planet as her father doesn't mean he is actually her flesh and blood father. i've always hoped that Leia would be seen going through jedi training, but i guess i was just dreaming that she'd be the "other". in the recent discussion, an interesting possibility occured to me: does anyone out there think that Vadar may be won back away from the evil side of the force? if anyone could do it, his talented son might be able to do it. that reminds me, i can't imagine them doing anything anywhere near as complex as having Vadar lie about being Luke's father. it would take most of SWIII to explain why he felt the need to lie. i can't come up with a single other example of someone lying anywhere in the first two movies, so i can't imagine such a big lie *and* a lie that is essential to the plot. my turn to mouth off.... don ------------------------------ Date: 29 Nov 82 12:27:14-PST (Mon) From: decvax!cwruecmp!krm at Ucb-C70 Subject: Yoda I have asked several of my friends why yoda wasn't involved in the war or the current struggle. The most common opinion is that Yoda was a *teacher* of the jedi and not a jedi himself. Yoda would not and could not fight Vader. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Nov 1982 09:51:45-EST From: mclean at NRL-CSS (John McLean) Subject: the other If Vadar and Luke unite to fight the emperor, could Vadar actually be the other? Also, I would like some clarification, if possible, of the CLONE wars. I've seen reference to these in earlier digests, but was never sure what to make of it. In SW1 I heard reference to what I thought were COLON (rhymes with 'cologne') wars. I assumed that 'colon' was short for 'colonial'. What is the evidence that the war actually involved clones? jdm ------------------------------ Date: 30-Nov-82 13:24:58-PST (Tue) From: CSVAX.upstill@Berkeley Subject: ROTJ trailer Would someone who has seen the trailer for Revenge of the Jedi care to share their impressions with me? Is it worth seeing independent of another viewing of Empire? How long is it? How informative/interesting? I'm thinking of going but not sure if it's worth going just for that. Mail your opinions to me (upstill@UCBVAX) or to the group. Thanks, Steve ------------------------------ Date: 30 Nov 82 19:25:39-EST (Tue) From: Gene Spafford Subject: Star Wars, or, Cloning Around I haven't seen it mentioned yet, so was I hallucinating when I noticed that Obi-Wan and the emperor looked exactly the same? I even think their voices were similar. If you look closely you may notice that the emperor had a hood over the upper part of his face, but the similarity was most striking (to me). If we think in terms of clones then we might speculate that Luke's father and Darth are clones, the Emperor and ObiWan are clones, and maybe Luke or Yoda have a clone out there. My officemate suggests that Yoda is really Luke's father and the last hope of the Jedi is the mother. Of course, what will really happen is that Leia will marry Chewbacca (she loves those hairy, strong types), Bobba Fett will sell Han to Baskin and Robbins as the flavor of the month, Lando will suddenly discover he is the only black person in the galaxy (have you seen any others outside of the ones who died in fight scenes?) and take the Millenium Falcon to search for his roots, Luke takes Yoda on the road as a fake ventriloquist act, R2D2 and C3PO run off with waring blenders (met them at a robot fraternity mixer), Darth has a change of heart (done at an Aamco shop) and becomes a hood ornament on a Jawa pimpmobile, and the emperor becomes a benevolent dictator after he learns to use the power of the force --- gently but effectively --- on his problem constipation. The rebel forces, finding themselves without intelligent, effective leadership (like our country nowadays) will fly off in search of another movie and eventually be destroyed in random encounters with the Gallactica, the Enterprise, and the Jupiter II. There, does that leave any loose ends? ------------------------------ Date: 29 Nov 82 19:22:08-PST (Mon) From: harpo!npoiv!alice!rabbit!wildman at Ucb-C70 Subject: The OTHER, again. I have also, usually to great laughter at my expense, proposed that Boba Fett was, if not the OTHER, at least a real good guy. Consider. 1) Boba Fett DOES backtalk Vader. He is the ONLY character, other than Luke and Obewan, who gets away with it, and the ONLY ONE who gets away whole. Furthermore, Vader agrees with Fett in much the same manner that the soldier in SWIV agrees with Obewan, which seems to mean that Fett somehow managed to dominate/charm Vader into the particular action. Why he saved Solo, then, is not clear, I must admit. 2) In all of the (2 so far) movies, the treatment of the character, as far as music and cinematography, has indicated the goodness/badness of the character. Fett, when taking off with Solo, flies off into a beautiful sunset, gracefully, with his ugly ship sillhouetted (sp, yes, I know) against the sunset so that it looks actually nice, and with HEROIC music, NOT heavy music. Seems a BIt strange. (This is what actually first caught my attention) 3) BF is mentioned as the person who can always find the man. Interesting, but not conclusive. 4) We already know that Leia has some sensitivity to the force, so her detection of a TRAINED and DESPERATE Luke doesn't make me that surprised. 5) When the disturbance in in the force is strong, Leia, Luke, and Fett are withing touching distance. Hmmmm. Colletively they can control Sharra, perhaps??? Why don't we all wait until next April and see for ourselves? P.S. Wasn't the quote "The Jedi does not CRAVE revenge." I have certainly gotten things that I do NOT crave. ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 1982 (Wednesday) 0025-EDT From: KENNEA at Wharton-10 (Richard Kenneally) Subject: another other Emperor: "The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi." Are we so sure he meant Luke's dad? Just a thought. -]Rick ------------------------------ Date: 30 Nov 1982 1527-EST From: Stephen R Balzac Subject: SW:TESB The solution to everything is indeed in clones: 1) Obi-wan fought in the clone wars. With a slight twist of pronunciation his name becomes, as everyone has been writing it, Ob1. Perhaps there are more Ob's? 2) Luke's father fought in the clone wars. However he was killed by Vader, who later claims to be Luke's father. Solution: Vader is a clone of Luke's dad who managed to kill the original. This way both statements are true: Ob1's that Vader killed Luke's dad, and Vader's that he is Luke's dad. 3) The other could easily be Boba-Fet. He wears armor from the clone wars, which dates him. He has never missed a kill (before Luke) which could indicate that the force is strong in him. He was able to mask himself (if the force is indeed strong in him) from Vader, which not even Ob1 could do. Remember, Boba-Fet stood only a few feet from Vader, and Vader never felt anything. This could mean either that Boba-Fet has nothing to do with the force, or that he is so powerful that no one can tell it if he doesn't want them to. Of course Boba-Fet did miss Luke. This could be explained by the Force being stong in Luke, but on the other hand, Boba-Fet had him at point blank range. It may be that Boba-Fet wanted to miss, not wanting to kill his son: Boba-Fet being, of course, yet another clone of Luke's father. 4) There may be more clones of Ob1 running around, too. After all, the hologram of the emperor looked awfully familiar... [This seems to be the most realistic explanation of the Star Wars/TESB mystery I've seen. Anyone care to try and punch holes in it? --Stuart] ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 1-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #94 *** EOOH *** Date: Wednesday, December 1, 1982 8:09PM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #94 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 2 Dec 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 94 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov's Foundation's Edge, Michener's Space, Chalker's Well World, Wolfe's The Citadel of the Autarch, early reading & book stores T.V. - Battlestar Ponderosa, Star Trek favorites Movies - the Other in Star Wars/TESB Music - SF music, filk Misc - bumper sticker ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 30 Nov 82 20:39:42-EST (Tue) From: J C Patilla Subject: Foundation's Edge & Gaia Did anyone else pick up the connection between the planet Gaia and the Missa Gaia ("Earth Mass") mentioned in a recent issue ? Asimov has played name games before, and this fits interestingly with the speculations about the role of Earth and the Pebble in the Sky connection. jcpatilla ------------------------------ Date: 29 Nov 82 16:40:43-PST (Mon) From: npois!houxm!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!inuxd!arlan at Ucb-C70 Subject: Review of Michener's SPACE Just read SPACE during a nice trip to Florida. I thought it to be very good, and disagree with comments here a few months ago that Michener was anti-SF. True, the stars of the book were not young fen, but when properly introduced to real SF, they responded commendably. Dr. Mott, one protagonist, was particularly impressed by Weinbaum; Randy Claggett, the redneck astronaut, was described as a lifelong fan; and several references are made, favorably, about Asimov, Heinlein, and Bradbury. To top it all off, when one (SPOILER!!) astronaut crashes on the moon, his last words are "Blessed St. Leibowitz, let them keep on dreamin' down there..." Who could possibly top that line? --arlan andrews btl/abi, indianapolis --317-845-6197 --POB 1008, Indianapolis, IN 46206 ------------------------------ Date: 30 Nov 82 21:26:41 EST (Tue) From: Tim Maroney Subject: Well World (spoiler) If you don't know who Nathan Brazil is after reading all five books, you must not have paid much attention to the last one. Nathan Brazil was a normal human in the last incarnation but three (I think) of the Universe. He was approached by the then-current Well World Repairman, who did to him whay he tried to do to Mavra Chang: hung the job on him and died. The repairman is the person who has to take the system down when some fool rips a hole in it, or otherwise maginifies a bug in the program. (This is, needless to say, a rather awful responsibility, since the beter part of all the sentients in the Universe die when you do this. This explains the suicidal tendencies of Well World Repair- persons.) Because Brazil belonged to an older version of the Universe, he was not completely compatible with this one, and thus gave Obie a serious stomachache when he ran through him. Other than that, the only special thing about Brazil was that the central computer made sure he didn't get killed and would let him take the system down. You are the first person I've ever heard of who read the series and didn't like it; try rereading it more carefully. Tim Maroney tim.unc@udel-relay (I think...) ------------------------------ Date: 1-Dec-82 11:33:12-PST (Wed) From: INGVAX.kalash@Berkeley (Joe Kalash) Subject: Wolfe book was NOT postponed The Wolfe book Citidal of the Autarch was not really postponed. Simon and Schuster are claiming it is a Jan. book, but have already released it. I am told that they want to make sure Citidal is not up against Sword of the Lictor at awards time. I'm not sure if this is going to work or not, Charlie Brown (publisher of Locus) is claiming it is an 82 book, and I don't know who is going to be believed. Joe ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 30 Nov 1982 23:50-PST Subject: Early reading and book stores From: gail at RAND-UNIX I remember quite clearly the first science fiction books I read. They were a series by Ruthven Todd (?). Some of the books were: Space Cat, Space Cat Goes to Mars, Space Cat Goes to Venus, Space Cat Has Kittens... As you can tell by the titles, they were aimed at an age group somewhat younger than the Mushroom Planet books (which I don't remember ever reading). Anyone remember these books? I can't even find them in the local library anymore. On a different note, I've been seeing mention of several bookstores here lately and it brings to mind something I've been meaning to bring up for a long time. When I'm in a strange city, one of my favorite things to do is find a good book store to browse. I would like to get a list of people's favorite stores around the country (or world?). Got any you'd like to recommend? If you send directly to me, I'll make a list and pass it on. (Please mention "bookstore" in the subject line.) What I'd like are the name, location (address if you have it handy), whether or not it is just science fiction, whether or not it has used books, and any general comments you want to make. I'll start off with a few of my own favorites: Mithras Bookstore in La Jolla, Calif. (with Unicorn Theater) General bookstore with a small used section and a really pleasant atmosphere for browsing (at least this was true 10-15 years ago when I lived there) Change of Hobbit in Santa Monica, Calif. (Lincoln near Pico) Need I say more? One of the best science fiction,etc. bookstores around. Small used section. Dangerous Visions in Sherman Oaks, Calif. (Ventura near Woodman) Somewhat smaller than CoH, but equally pleasant. And I've found books there not available at CoH. (sold out?) Wilshire Books in West Los Angeles, Calif. (Wilshire near Stanford) My favorite used book store around here. Some s.f. but mostly general. (name unknown) in Cambridge, Mass. (Over a Chinese restaurant near Harvard Square) A fairly small bookstore which is devoted to s.f. (Actually, they claim to be the biggest around (east coast?), so maybe I'm spoiled.) Mr. Dickens' Book Store in Sacramento, Calif. (5311 Elkhorn Blvd.) A good general book store, but at least the day I was there, the guy running it was really into s.f. Powell's Books in Portland, Oregon (11th and Burnside) One of the larest bookstores I've seen. One (very long) wall devoted to s.f. They have books on just about anything. Used books shelved in among new ones. MITSFS library at MIT. Not a store, but great for browsing. Anyway, that's the kind of thing I'm looking for. Thanks for any contributions. ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 1982 0331-EST From: Greg Skinner Subject: Why BG failed Battlestar Galactica (BG), like so many other SF TV series flopped for some similar reasons. Here are a few. 1) After the episode in which the transmission from Earth was picked up, they could have started up another season. (Actually they did -- it was called Galactica 1980) However, considering their original distance from Earth (Caprica was about 12 light-years away, judging from the Capricorn constelliation which is also about 12 light years away, I think), they would have had to come up with about twelve years in space of episodes. Perhaps they could have crunched it down to three or four years of episodes, but they would have run out of ways for the Galactans to fight Cylons or find markers to their Earth journey. 2) They were showing the episodes weekly. Now, a similar problem occurred in the series Wonder Woman (the original and the new) with Lynda Carter. Interest was dying in the show, because they were using up too many of their good episodes. What they did was time-share (!!) Wonder Woman with some other series that aired the same time and night that Wonder Woman did. This gave the producers a chance to spring surprises on viewers (like the Andros -- alien from outer space episode) and kept up interest in the show. The producers of Galactica could have done the same, but alack and alas, they didn't. 3) I saw both Apollo and Starbuck on other series (namely the Love Boat) not too long after BG ended, inclining me to believe that they had other acting interests other than SF. 4) What with SW in '77, and Close Encounters hot on its heels, and Superman I on its way in early '79, I think the American television audience had had their fill of SF on the air for a while. Still, BG was a GREAT tv series while it lasted. I think the earlier shows were the best, plus the few where they contacted the "gods" and "Terrans". Two of my favorite quotes came from the same episode (Greetings from Earth) -- I can't remember them now, but they both had to do with the controversy over the opening of the Terrans' life support units (one was by Apollo, the other by Adama). ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 1982 0414-PST From: Henry W. Miller Subject: Re: ST faves As was "Assignment: Earth", which was supposed to be a Star Trek spinnoff, about an advanced alien (of Terran ancestry) and a scatterbrained but brilliant secretary who were supposed to help Earth out during it's critical periods. How many of you realized that? -HWM ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 1982 0409-PST From: Henry W. Miller Subject: ST faves Thanks for reminding me. Don't know how I forgot it, but, yes, "The City on the Edge of Forever" rates in my top picks. -HWM ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 1982 0406-PST From: Henry W. Miller Subject: ST: More planet skewage Yesterday, I saw the first episode of the third season of Star Trek. One of my least favorites, "Spock's Brain". It did have it's moments, but... First, the planet skewage. Throughout the first half of the episode, they make it clear that they are going to the sixth planet of the system. Yet, later on, Sulu, who has the conn, records in the log, "We are currently in orbit around Sigma Draconis XII..." Why would they be in orbit around the 7th planet, when the 6th was clearly the target??? Scotty states that the underground power source is powerful enough to move the planet out of orbit. Either it's a nuclear pile a hundred miles across, or, advanced ion power. OK, fine. If the ancients had that type of power at their command, they could either A) move the planet into a more temporate orbit to alleviate the ice age, or, B) used the energy to expunge the empending ice age. If they had that power at their command, why would they exile the males to the colder upper levels? Why not keep both sexes below? And, if they had that technology, why did they require a humanoid brain as a controller? Why not a computer system, that could have surely outlasted the 10K span of the/a controller? The episode did have good acting: the scenes between Shatner and Kelley were among the best. But, the rest of the episode suffered. I'll have to list this as one of my five least favorites. -HWM ------------------------------ Date: 30 Nov 82 21:41:24 EST (Tue) From: Tim Maroney Subject: Worst Star Trek episode The one about the Yangs and the Komms was indeed one of the worst; its dumbest part was when Kirk recognized the (gasp!) Pledge of Allegiance and charmed everyone by reciting it. This was explained by "parallel evolution". Right. Another really pathetic one was where Kirk, Spock, Abraham Lincoln, and Sarek of Vulcan fight Genghis Khan and crew in a purposeless and unexplained "battle of good vs. evil" which is of course won by Kirk and Spock's combat skills. The absolute worst has to be the first movie, of course, which I assume everyone is familiar with. All three of these were written by Gene Roddenberry, the show's producer. Strangely enough, after he left the show (third season), all the episodes were like that, including such beauties as the season opener, "Spock's Brain"; the one about the space hippies with lettuce ears; and "Day of the Dove", in which the Klingons, who had been previously established to treat women as subhuman pleasure machines, have female officers. (I get the feeling this was a misplaced attempt to be non-sexist.) This may have more to do with the fact that Dorothy Fontana, the story editor, left, since I doubt Roddenberry knows sf from his right nostril. "City on the Edge of Forever" was definiteley the best; who knows what the other Star Trek episode to win a Hugo was? Tim Maroney tim.unc@udel-relay ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 1982 1916-PST From: Henry W. Miller Subject: Star Trek Plotlines One nice thing about being sick is being able to watch Star Trek in the afternoon. Today I saw a double header with amazingly similar plot lines: "For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky", and "Paradise Syndrome". In both cases, Kirk and company discover civilizations that stem from ancient origins, both faced with eminent extinction due to cosmic calamities. Both civilizations are being watched over by mechanical caretakers who have malfunctioned, and the knowledge to effect repairs had been lost. In one case, Kirk falls in love and marries the Chief's daughter, in the other, McCoy marries the high priestess. In the end, the lost knowledge is regained, and Spock reactivates. It is interesting that the Third Season produced two episodes that were so similar. While neither of the episodes were my favorites, they were by far not the ones I dislike the most. Maybe that was a symptom of dry-rot: lack of creativity. -HWM ------------------------------ Date: 30 Nov 82 16:27:30-PST (Tue) From: decvax!cwruecmp!honton at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: The Other Concerening the "other", my favorite is Darth Vader himself. He really isn't that bad of guy. Consider: In Star Wars IV "A New Hope", he prevents Princess Leia from being executed. He makes a martyr out of Obi Wan, (elevating him to a higher plane.) He doesn't even stop the rebels from destroying the Death Star. Other considerations would be to take into account that he may be able to fight the empire from within and this bad guy image is a disguise. (If Darth really did hunt down all the Jedi, he did a pretty poor job) He may also be won back to the good side of the force. (When Yoda talks of another hope, doeas he make it seem like a new person, or maybe one who will change sides?) Another thing, remember that the Jedi fought together in the clone wars? Perhaps Darth really is the clone of Luke's father. My final thought, If Darth does not go through some sort of change, why is there a partial "unveiling" in the Empire Strikes Back? Just trying out some thoughts, chas (..!decvax!cwruecmp!honton) ------------------------------ Date: 1 December 1982 11:21-EST From: Christopher C. Stacy Lucas claims consistantly that the "other" is a character who has not been in the SW movies we have seen. ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 1982 13:47:20 EST (Wednesday) From: Winston Edmond Subject: Yoda Reply to krm at Ucb-C70 Belief in "the Force" and training in its use has often been referred to as an old religion. Luke was sent to Yoda to learn the ways of the force as a part of learning to become a Jedi knight, but probably there are other parts to becoming a Jedi. We are told that Yoda is a Jedi Master, but he doesn't seem to have ever been a Jedi knight. If the Jedi are a religious order similar to some in the middle ages, Yoda is simply a religious authority/instructor and the knights are a military arm of the religion. ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 1982 1637-EST From: Stephen R Balzac Subject: Sharra Somehow I doubt that even Luke, Leia and Boba Fet could control Sharra, although I'd bet that Vader would like to try. ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 1982 1814-PST From: Henry W. Miller Subject: The Other, etc. The image of the Emperor was ideed Alec Guiness' face, although the voice belonged to someone else (Cyril Ritchard?), and the eyes were those of a chimpanzee. (It seems at the time Sir Guiness's eyes were suffering some disorder that made them extremely sensitive to light. Besides, it added an air of mystery) Bobba Fett wanted Solo for the bounty offered by Jabba the Hut. Helping Vader was just a stroke of mutual luck. (Then again, was it? The points put forth are very enticing, and cannot be totally discounted. There may be much more to Bobba Fett than meets the eye...) -HWM ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 82 2:27:21-EST (Wed) From: Ron Natalie Subject: More SF Music...Sort of.. About two years ago I picked up an album with a very cute cover showing C3PO on drums, an imperial storm trouper playing sax, and Chewbacca on the piano, with Vader at a table in the audience. The album is called "EMPIRE JAZZ" and has prog. jazz versions of things like Vader's March. Not too bad, I picked it up since it did have a rather impressive list of performers on it. -Ron ------------------------------ Date: 29 Nov 82 21:59:27-PST (Mon) From: harpo!floyd!vax135!ariel!houti!lime!we13!otuxa!ll1!ihldt!ihnp4!i From: xn5c!inuxc!inuxd!arlan at Ucb-C70 Subject: More Andrews Filk!! To the New Jersey SF Society and others who have so graciously asked for more, here are more filk from the musical comedies presented at Inconjunctions I & II by the Circle of Janus SF Club of Indianapolis, the players known as the "It's Not Our Fault" players [who have the motto NO EST NOS CULPA.] Both plays will eventually be available from Roger Reynolds in FUTURE FOCUS fanzine, should he ever get it published again. In the meantime, [adv.] I'll be happy to allow any SF group to present the plays for the modest remuneration of a roundtrip airticket to see it...or at least a videotape of the producution. Filk: (deleted) ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 1982 11:51:37-EST From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX Subject: Obscure bumper sticker:net.jokes Ankh if you like LOGAN'S RUN ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 2-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #95 *** EOOH *** Return-Path: <@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA> Date: Thursday, December 2, 1982 8:54PM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #95 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 3 Dec 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 95 Today's Topics: Books - Chalker's Nathan Brazil in Well-World series, Bradley's Darkover series, Clarke's vacuum breathing, Cook's Dread Empire & StarFishers trilogies & the Swordbearer Vinge/Martin's True Names Children's SF and fond memories T.V. - Dr. Who, Star Trek favorite and least favorite episodes Movies- The Last Unicorn, Star Wards / TESB: the "other", Revenge of the Jedi Music - Filksinging Misc - Notes from Chicon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 Dec 1982 09:27 EST Subject: Who the Well is Nathan Brazil? From: Chris Heiny If Brazil was a normal human, why did he claim to be, among other things, God or a Markovian (i think i got that right). The explanation at the end of the series didn't clear anything up for me. If Brazil was really human, why did he turn into a turnip every time he entered the Well control center? Why did he lie about who/what he was? The foofaraw about amnesia seems a bit contrived to me. (But most of the last two books seems a bit contrived). Perhaps I will blow off this weekend and reread the series. chris PS Did anyone else notice the unusual sexual tastes of the last-centaur-on-earth? He is the only homosexual I can recall in a Chalker book. ------------------------------ Date: 2 December 1982 1303-EST (Thursday) From: Bob.Walker at CMU-CS-A Subject: darkover novels I've just started reading the Darkover novels, and recall a discussion this past spring or so on the "correct" order in which to read them (perhaps chronological?). Does anyone still have this information around anywhere, or can you tell me where to find it? - bob ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 82 17:17:17 EST (Wed) From: Grumpy Sender: John R Bane Subject: general emptying of buffer... 1) The first sf books I read were stuff like 'The white mountains' (I still like that book!), 'A Wrinkle in Time', 'The Forgotten Door', 'Gray Magic' (formerly 'Steel Magic', I think), some of Heinlein's early books, my favorites being 'The Door into Summer' 'The Puppet Masters', 'Waldo', and 'Magic, Inc.' Matter of fact, I still think these books are pretty good. I also read the first half of 'Stranger in a Strange Land' a few times (just couldn't get past the business conference in the middle), and a just a lot of things, sf and other. (I read a lot of stuff my friends the librarians suggested, including 'Snowy', a story about a high school cheerleader discovering how to give blow jobs. I wonder why she suggested that?) 2) Shrinking people - there was a sequel to the story (title and author forgotten, I'm afraid) about a group of people shrunk to .25 inches as a possible solution to overpopulation (memory of book "We could build cities under the skin of cows, and mine for food, with giant (i.e. normal sized) dummies tending the cows ...) Anyway, the sequel (the original was mentioned 5 or 10 digests ago) is called 'Killer Pine', I think, and is about these miniature people being sent to Russia to find out about their shrinking project, and I think steal some documents or something. I read it YEARS ago. 3) To one of the people discussing Star Wars - Princess Leia came from Aldaran, not Organia. Organians were those super-powerful energy people from 'Errand of Mercy' of Star Trek. 4) My favorite space suit is John Varley's. ('Persistance of Vision', etc.) One lung is replaced with this spacesuit generator. When you go anywhere not suitable (pun?) for bare living, this machine generates an energy field that follows the contours of your body and reflects everything, so you look like a mirror except for spots that follow your eyes. The system is automatic, and feeds oxygen into your bloodstream. Doors cam be made of this stuff, so you just walk out and it's like the door wraps itself around you. Also, Varley seems to be pretty competent at handling women. Another interesting thing: sex change operations are so common that it's odd not to have at least one or two in your life. Unfortunately, the general universe as revealed in 'The Ophiucci Hotline' is extremely depressing. (There are three levels of intelligence: 1. the Invaders, who easily kick Man off Earth 2. Porpoises and whales 3. Bees, dogs, humans, etc.) There is absolutely no hope of regaining Earth. [Varley's "8-Worlds" universe is my favorite future history. I vastly prefer it to Niven's or Heinlein's. Varley seems to have a knack for cleverly revealing information, landscape, characterization, and technological achievements in a subtle way rather than explaining it and hitting you over the head with it as so many authors do. The three books making up this universe are: The Ophiuchi Hotline, The Persistence of Vision, and The Barbie Murders. Books of his which are not quite up to this level are Titan and Wizard, part of a trilogy probably pressed upon him by his publisher (just a guess). I believe it's about time for another "8-Worlds" collection near the release of his upcoming novels Demon (to complete the above mediocre trilogy) and the novelization of the short story Air Raid from his Persistence collection, which I have higher hopes for. -- Stuart] 5) From the Star Trek episode "City on the edge of forever," I think the quote was more like "I am endeavoring, madam, to construct a mnemonic circuit with stone knives and bear skins." Edith just said, "Oh." 6) My favorite episodes include the above, and "A Piece of the Action", "The Trouble with Tribbles", "Elaan of Troyius" (though I saw it many times before deciding I liked it), "Assignment Earth" (a pilot that never made it to its own series), and lots others. As a matter of fact, there are good portions of almost every show. Even the one with the Combs and the Yangs (I turn my TV off at the end, it's so embarrassing) there is the scene where Kirk knows he is going to die. His shoulders slump, and he just stands there, but when Tracy's phaser doesn't fire he immediately recovers - better than Kirk hugging a random Yeoman, anyway. Other worsts: "Spock's Brain" (still intriguing, the transfer of knowledge for a short while, the use of a brain to run things as a body), the one with the reused western set and the shootout (still, the idea of mind over matter ...) possibly "Elaan of Troyius" (that hokey love potion) (but I still like it a lot - giving up her selfishness for a man she cannot help but despise and a people she absolutely hates because of 'duty and responsibility.' The idea of the spoiled child learning better has always caught my interest. Anyway, enough for this message. 7) Extremely sorry this 'note' is so long. I especially apologize to you folks trying to skip this at 300 bau. The digests arrive so fast they kinda pile up on me. - rene ------------------------------ Date: 2 Dec 1982 12:00:36-EST From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX Subject: crxn on Clarke's vacuum breathing The story [containing] "Take a Deep Breath" is "The Other Side of the Sky", not "Islands in the Sky". ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 1982 2340-EST From: Steven J. Zeve Subject: Glenn Cook: Dread Empire & StarFishers trilogies, and the Subject: Swordbearer While at ChiCon I worked up my nerve and with great trepidation asked Glenn Cook to autograph a set of the StarFishers trilogy. (I wanted to give them as a present to friends of mine who couldn't make it to ChiCon.) While he was signing them and some things for other people, I asked him about the both the Dread Empire trilogy and the StarFishers trilogy (I also talked to him a for little bit later in the con). When asked how he felt about the StarFishers trilogy, he said that he wasn't really happy with the books. What he said was that he had conceived the trilogy as a two volume story and his publisher had insisted that he expand it to three books. As a result, the second book underwent a massive rewrite and a minor character from the first book was promoted to be the unifying character across all three books (anyone care to guess who that character was? if you don't guess Mouse, go back and re-read the first book). I think that this explains why the last two books didn't have the same feel as the first one, I guess that he didn't really commit himself to them as fully as he did to the first book. And no, he doesn't plan on any other books in the series. What he said about Dread Empire was interesting too. Cook claims that his original concept was to follow a small cast of characters until the last one of them died. He currently feels that the series will run to seven books by the time this happens, although this is subject to change. From what he said I assume that changes in the length of the series will come from any of three sources: 1) the publisher wants it longer or shorter, 2) new characters introduce themselves and decide to be major characters who must be followed all the way through to their deaths, and 3) major characters insist on dying early (he said that this had happened to him with one character already, but I didn't catch which character it was). The only important comment he made about the Swordbearer was that he didn't expect to be writing a sequel to it. Steve Z. ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 1982 2308-EST From: Steven J. Zeve Subject: notes from ChiCon... yes I know it's a bit late. I heard several interesting things at ChiCon, and I don't recall having seen them mentioned here. Please forgive me if this is redundant. The two biggest announcements of the con (outside of the Hugos of course), were: 1) A carbon copy (with handwritten corrections) of the manuscript for H. Beam Piper's third fuzzy novel has been found. The book will be published this coming year, by Ace I believe. (They found the copy in a box of stuff after they FINALLY settles the legal battles surrounding his estate.) 2) Cordwainer Smith's notebooks have been found. James Gunn (at least I think it was Gunn) convinced the university that he works for to purchase the notebooks. As of the time of the ChiCon, the notebooks had not been thoroughly examined and indexed, so they didn't know if there were any unpublished stories in the collection. Gunn felt that there were at least two PhD's worth of analysis to be had from the whole set of papers. There were some lesser things that I heard that might be of interest to this list: 1) Gordon Dickson is now claiming that "The Final Encyclopedia" will be available next fall (probably November). He also claims that he has at long last begun the final book in the series, "Childe". 2) The Panshins have begun their own publishing house called (I believe) Elephant Books. I have a flyer on it somewhere and will be happy to type in the pertinent information from it if anyone is interested. 3) Glenn Cook claims that there are at least two more Dread Empire series books to come. Possibly two more beyond that if he can sell the publisher on them. He expects the next volume to come out in two years (his publisher has the book already but has cut back the SF/Fantasy line by one title per month, thus possibly pushing the book back by 1 year. It was originally scheduled for 1983). Steve Z. p.s. I notice that we are getting a great deal of verbiage/flaming about TESB and SW lately, some of the people doing this might be interested in seeing all the verbiage that was generated back during the original release of TESB. Moderator Stuart, if you haven't pointed out where to find this material could you do so now? If you have already done so, accept my apologies for asking you to repeat the work (in the last 1 and 1/2 weeks, I have read all the SF-L generated from ChiCon through now and I can't keep it all straight as to what has already been said). [The Star Wars / TESB discussion is in [SRI-CSL]ARCHIVE.V1 at the end of the file. -- Stuart] ------------------------------ Date: 2 Dec 1982 1436-EST From: DAVID.LEWIN Subject: Children's SF My science fiction reading began with a book (author's name now forgotten) called "The Space Ship Under the Apple Tree". All I remember is that the friendly aliens helped out a farm family by enclosing their burning barn in vacuum to put out the fire. As with many other respondents, my next step was juvenile Heinlein. ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 2 December 1982 17:08-EST From: Vince Fuller Subject: Early reading and book stores Date: Tuesday, 30 Nov 1982 23:50-PST From: gail at RAND-UNIX To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC Re: Early reading and book stores I remember quite clearly the first science fiction books I read. They were a series by Ruthven Todd (?). Some of the books were: Space Cat, Space Cat Goes to Mars, Space Cat Goes to Venus, Space Cat Has Kittens... As you can tell by the titles, they were aimed at an age group somewhat younger than the Mushroom Planet books (which I don't remember ever reading). Anyone remember these books? I can't even find them in the local library anymore. Fond memories of bygone days... How well I remember these books - they were my introduction to SF back in elementary school. I can remember scouring first the school library, then the local public libraries for these... ------------------------------ Date: 30 Nov 82 15:44:54-PST (Tue) From: harpo!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: True Names- Dell true to word - (nf) #R:pur-phy:-59600:uicsl:10700001:000:242 uicsl!wombat Nov 30 13:12:00 1982 Must have been one of the last copies. My husband tried the same thing and got a form letter saying "thanks for the order, but the book is no longer in stock." Maybe someday a copy will make it to a used bookstore out here in the midwest... ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 82 13:15:22-PST (Wed) From: npois!houxm!ihnp4!ihuxk!mhauck at Ucb-C70 Subject: Doctor Who? Does anyone have an update to the Doctor Who list that came out in Oct. It was only upto March 30, 1982. If anyone has the rest of them please mail them to ixlpc!mhauck Thank you M.J.Hauck ------------------------------ Date: 30 Nov 82 21:31:07-PST (Tue) From: decvax!cwruecmp!ccc at Ucb-C70 Subject: Comment on The Last Unicorn In a recent "issue" of SF-LOVERS DIGEST there was a review of The Last Unicorn, in which the reviewer said that some of the dialogue "must have been taken from the book". I would hope so, as the "screenplay" was, I believe, written by Peter S. Beagle himslef! There is a minute chance that I'm wrong, but even if I am, I did recognize most of the dialogue. The only problem I had (if one could call it a problem) was that some of the more philosophical parts were left out. I suppose this was to make the story fit into two hours. All in all, the movie was masterfully done. I heartily recommend it. Clayton Elwell {usenet}!decvax!cwruecmp!ccc ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 82 12:25:22-PST (Wed) From: harpo!eagle!mhuxt!mhuxj!mhuxi!macrev at Ucb-C70 Subject: What is a Filk? I'm new here -- what is a Filk? Mike Lynch BTL Short Hills, NJ ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 82 17:42:29-PST (Wed) From: npois!houxm!houxa!houxi!whuxk!3722trn at Ucb-C70 Subject: more on the Other For every person who has seen TESB, there is a pet 'significant happening'. I have not yet seen mine on the net, which is: The carbon freezing chamber, Han is about to go down, when Chewie goes on a mini-rampage. Han calms him down, but before that, Boba Fett takes aim at Chewie with his rifle, ONLY TO HAVE VADER KNOCK THE WEAPON DOWN (but not out of his hands). I was almost convinced of the 'clone' significance (either DV or Luke) until John MacLean at NRL-CSS suggusted 'colon' (rhymes with cologne) short for colonial. One of the real Trek dogs was the gunfight at the OK corral episode. another good one is Shore Leave, by Theodore Sturgeon. Re: tRotJ trailer, my husband thinks the Vatican is mixed up in it, because of the scenes of all the people in red robes. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Dec 1982 1328-EST From: Stephen R Balzac Subject: Star Trek The first ST movie was written by Alan Dean Foster, not Roddenberry. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Dec 1982 1211-PST From: CARROLL at USC-ISIF Subject: Best STs How about 'The Naked Time', in which the crew is exposed to an alien organism which releases inhibitions and self-doubts in the victim. One crewman attempts suicide, and later dies due to a lack of will to live, because he thinks man should not be in space; Sulu chases people through the corridors with a fencing foil; Spock breaks down and cries. I haven't seen this for quite a while, but I think it was one of the better ones. 'The Tholian Web' was pretty good, too, with some nice scenes with Spock and McCoy, and an interesting, but SLOW, space combat technique employed by the Tholians. 'Charlie X', with Robert Walker Jr. ( currently featured in a Certs ad), was not bad, either. Most of the other favorites already mentioned go on my list, too. The WASTE ( Worst of Any Star Trek Ever) Award goes to 'The Way to Eden'. The only redeeming part of this one is when one hippie-oid completes his medical exam, and sings: "I'm gonna dance and sing and jump for joy, I got a clean bill of health from Doctor McCoy!". Steve (carroll@isif) ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 2 December 1982 17:12-EST From: Vince Fuller Subject: ST faves Date: Wednesday, 1 December 1982 07:14-EST From: Henry W. Miller To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC Re: ST faves As was "Assignment: Earth", which was supposed to be a Star Trek spinnoff, about an advanced alien (of Terran ancestry) and a scatterbrained but brilliant secretary who were supposed to help Earth out during it's critical periods. How many of you realized that? This was pointed out in "The World of Star Trek", which had a section describing the writer, director, and guest stars for each episode in each of the three seasons. It also had a few random notes about specific episodes (like if they were nominated or won a Hugo award) and which were significant for other reasons (like "Assignment: Earth"). --vaf ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 2 December 1982 17:16-EST From: Vince Fuller Subject: Worst Star Trek episode "City on the Edge of Forever" was definitely the best; who knows what the other Star Trek episode to win a Hugo was? Hmm... Not having my copy of "The World of Star Trek" here, I can't tell offhand. Some guesses would be "The Doomsday Machine" and the second pilot script "Where No Man has Gone Before". --vaf ------------------------------ Date: 2 December 1982 23:44-EST From: Charles F. Von Rospach Subject: Worst Star Trek episode The biggest problem with the episode about the Yangs and the Komms was not Kirk recognizing that dribble as the Pledge of Allegiance and spouting it back to them, it was the fact taht the Yangs recognized HIS fribble as their sacred words. Their language had changed so radically that there was really no comparison between the two speeches except the cadence, and I never really believed that they would be able to recognize his as the same. 'Mog dowbagh jonnah' Does not at any time sound like 'I pledge alligienance', and the Yangs accepting it as their own (mythical) gospel was ludicrous. Remember that Kirk has always been (among his other sterling qualities), a historical scholar and chliche-ridden romantic. His rememberance of the alligiance is not unreasonable in that light (I mean, what else does he have to do on all those long, cold nights out in the middle of space... He obviously isn't married, and even if you are in love with your ship, that isn't necessarily the kind of relationship that keeps your nights busy...) chuck (chuqui at mit-mc) ------------------------------ Date: 2 Dec 1982 1506-PST From: Henry W. Miller Subject: Re: ST faves I have the OLD version of that book; not so detailed. -HWM ------------------------------ Date: 30 Nov 82 22:07:52 EST (Tue) From: Craig Stanfill Subject: Time schemes in SF. In a previous journal, someone noted a conflict between the age of a bottle of brandy and a stardate. Unfortunately, it is impossible to judge terran dates by stardates, which vary as a ship moves from one 'local time zone' to another. Does anyone out there know exactly how stardates are computed? I would also like to know what dating schemes have been proposed in various SF works. The most obvious is to look at a clock on earth, and subtract your distance from the clock in light-years from that clock . This works if everyone moves slowly, but when relativistic effects become important it doesn't work. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Dec 82 01:38-EDT (Thu) From: the Golux Subject: Revenge of the Hey Judes First off: Impressive verbiage, Jon (Solomon), but why do you fully capitalise VADER? The clone wars: I haven't seen it mentioned yet, but how about this scenario: Vader is a clone of Luke's real father, whom Vader subsequently killed. As a non-emotionally clad figure (i.e., not Luke's actual biological dad), Vader is fair game for Luke to kill. Han is Luke's brother, by his defunct biological dad. He is 'the other,' but no-one knows it but Yoda (savvy little bugger, ain't he?). Leia... Who knows what she'll do? Women and weather, y'know... She has the hoary and time-honoured right (rite?) to change her mind, so I'm making no sorties in that direction. How does this sit with folks? ken coar@umass ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 82 13:26:24 EST (Wed) From: Khron The Elder Subject: Luke's father and such.... Actually, Darth is a clone of Chewbacca that didn't quite make it. That might explain why he wears all that apparatus. Then Darth had a clone of himself made, into whom he tried to transfer himself by some frobbish use of the Farce. This clone on a clone, however, had his own personality, and escaped before he was reprogrammed. He had a kid, and lived happily for a while, till Vader caught up with him, and zapped him. I don't know if anybody suggested this yet, I've been throwing the last few weeks of SFL on the ground because of other things. Also, Obi Wan Kenobi is actually Obi Two Kenobi. They were cloned from each other and Obi Wan was the Jedi killed when the Empire (big 'E'?) took over. This is fun, you can do anything once you introduce the idea of clones......... -Rehmi- ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 82 12:54:01 EST (Wed) From: Chris Torek I vote for Chewbacca as Luke's father. - Chris (or: how about, Obi-Wan is Luke's father (or a clone thereof?)) (or: Luke is Luke's father??? Time warp?) (or: Leia's father & Luke's father are clones, and Luke & Leia are brother and sister?) Seriously... isn't this getting a bit ridiculous? ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 82 00:42:57 EST (Wed) From: Liz Allen Subject: Luke's father Could it be that both Obiwan and Darth Vadar are both right (in a sense) about Luke's father? It was recently pointed out to me that in the very beginning, Leia's recorded message to Obiwan says something about Obiwan helping Leia's father during the \klone/ wars. Now, could Darth Vadar be a klone of Luke's father??? -Liz ------------------------------ Date: 2 Dec 1982 0300-PST From: Henry W. Miller Subject: R2D2 and Toto Too... A few years back, in fact just a few months after Star Wars came out, a brilliant cartoon came out in a fanzine. it was called, "R2D2 and Toto too..." Here is the summary: All of the characters of "The Wizard of OZ" were there, and in the background were their phantom counterparts from Star Wars. Dorthy/Princess Leia Scarecrow/Han Solo Tin Man/C3P0 Cowardly Lion/Chewbacca Wicked Witch/Darth Vader (naturally...) Toto/R2D2 The Wizard of Oz/Obi Wan Kenobi Flying Monkeys/TIE Fighters The Witch's Castle/DEATH STAR Munchkins/Jawas Witch's Soldiers/Imperial Storm Troopers As you can see, the parallels run on and on. The interesting point is that there is no real counterpart for Luke or Glinda, unless you want to equate Glinda with Obi-Wan, instead of the Wizard. Luke is an interesting point. Perhaps he has no counterpart because he is special, "A New Hope..." I wonder if Lucas had this in mind, or if it was just a delightful coinidence? David Gerrol admits that he might have subconsciously plagerized Heinlein's "The Rolling Stones" when he wrote "The Trouble with Tribbles", but Heinlein LOVED it!!! In any event, I love the fact the Star Wars is in effect an updated version of "The Wizard of Oz". I love both movies. -HWM ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 82 18:56:11-PST (Wed) From: decvax!cwruecmp!krm at Ucb-C70 Subject: star wars vs. all in the family Ok, at last I've got the definative Star Wars solution. OB*1*, Vader, Luke's father, Luke, Leia's father, the Emporer **AND** boba fet are all clones from the same batch and the same infantry squad. clone, clone on the range.... 'chard. :-) ------------------------------ Date: 2 Dec 82 18:02:45-PST (Thu) From: hplabs!hp-pcd!everett (Everett Kaser) at Ucb-C70 Subject: Star Wars saga: ROTJ - (nf) #N:hp-pcd:8200005:000:979 hp-pcd!everett Dec 2 14:40:00 1982 From: Everett Kaser hplabs!hp-pcd Last night we went to see The Empire Strikes Back again after 2 1/2 years, and it was preceded by a brief preview of Revenge of the Jedai. It was primarily just a series of quick scenes of all of the major characters. What was interesting was that the one for Obi Wan (or however it's spelled), showed him as a solid corporeal person, not the 'ghost' he's been since the end of Star Wars. Also, in TESB, the one brief time the Emporer is seen (via Light TV), talking to Vader, he looks remarkably similar to Yoda. He has a hood on and the picture is very grainy, so he could easily looked remarkably like my pet cat, but it was an interesting thought that the emporer might be of the same race as Yoda. After all, where did Yoda come from? And where's the rest of his race? Is he the last remnant of some of the action in Star Wars 1 thru 3? Never afraid to make my mark, X ------------------------------ Date: 2 Dec 1982 15:36 PST From: TEMPLETON.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #94 I have been reading the discussions on the 3rd episode in the Star Wars series but have not seen any indication of how I can either see it myself (has it been released) or read it (is it a book) or whatever? Can anyone tell me about it? JBT ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 82 14:20:57 EST (Wed) From: Andrew Scott Beals Subject: the `other' . . . is Steven Speilberg! (ahem.) :-) -andy ------------------------------ Date: 2 Dec 1982 1909-PST From: Bill Subject: The other... Hmmm... I think that OBI-WAN KENOBI will come back to life in ROTJ, and, that he is the "other hope." Bill ------------------------------ Date: 2 December 1982 23:48-EST From: Charles F. Von Rospach Subject: The Other, etc. Another thing about Bobba Fett... If he isn't such an important character, then why was he the FIRST action figure put out by Kenner (in front of the Yoda doll, and new dolls for all the other people), and why is he still being pushed in the Star Wars Action Figure advertising? What we don't know, the marketing people probably do... chuck (chuqui at mit-mc) ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 1982 2233-PST Subject: "Won back from the dark side" From: Dave Dyer Vader? won back from the dark side? How large a stack of bibles would you make Adolf Hitler stand on before you believe he was "won back" from genocidal tendancies? After all, Vader only destroyed one planet... ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 3-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #96 *** EOOH *** Date: Friday, December 3, 1982 9:00PM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #96 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 4 Dec 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 96 Today's Topics: SF convention calendar Books - Bradley's Darkover, Chalker's Well-World, Space Cat Themes - shrinking, time travel Misc - Bookstores Query - Sharra? Radio - Dr. Demento Movies - make one in space, Star Wars / TESB clonage and the Other, Revenge of the Jedi, Star Trek T.V. - Star Trek and Kirk's Omega Glory recitation ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 3 December 1982 03:55 est From: Schauble.Multics at MIT-MULTICS Subject: SF convention calendar Do you know the current location of Zellich's sf convention calendar? If not, please put a query in the digest. Paul ------------------------------ Date: 3 Dec 1982 0031-PST From: Zellich at OFFICE-3 (Rich Zellich) Subject: SF Cons listing updated OFFICE-3 file CONS.TXT has been updated and is now ready for FTP. OFFICE-3 supports the net-standard "ANONYMOUS" Login within FTP, using any password. CONS.TXT is currently 941 lines (or 44,017 characters). Please try to limit your FTP jobs to before 0600-CDT and after 1600-CDT if possible, as the system is heavily loaded during the day. Enjoy, Rich ------------------------------ Date: 3 Dec 1982 1023-EST From: Stephen R Balzac Subject: Darkover Chronologically, the first book is Darkover Landfall. I think the next one is Storm Queen, but am not sure. I can probably find out within a few days. (or send me a list of the titles and I can put them in order for you. I just don't remember what they all are, off hand.) ------------------------------ Date: 3 Dec 1982 12:44:53-EST From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX Subject: re darkover MZB has said repeatedly that all of the books are independent and can be read individually (with the possible exception of two pairs). If you're really interested in tracing Darkovan history you're better off getting the concordance rather than trying to disentangle the books. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Dec 1982 1115-EST From: Joseph M. Newcomer Subject: He Who Shrank By H. Hesse, appeared in Amazing in 1936. It has been reprinted in Healy & McComas, Adventures in Time and Space (Ballantine 1975) Asimov, Before the Golden Age (if you have the paperback series, it is in volume 3) joe ------------------------------ Date: 3 Dec 1982 12:45:38-EST From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX Subject: shrinking people Just remembered one that it seems nobody else has heard of: MANALONE by Colin Kapp (English author, I believe he died recently). The MITSFS has a British edition; I doubt it was ever published in this country. Not much good as the entire plot keys on this one character realizing that as a solution to the population problem people have been shrunk to ca. 2 feet tall but think everything is normal (the [hero] starts finding artifacts and mistaking them because of scale problems, e.g. a creamer is believed to be a teapot). Kapp has done some good books, including THE WIZARD OF ANHARITTE (a classic ASTOUNDING SF story that somehow came out in IF in 1972) and THE SURVIVAL GAME (similar theme). Rated ALP: THE CHAOS WEAPON, a "sequel" to PATTERNS OF CHAOS (ok). ------------------------------ Date: 3 December 1982 01:04-EST From: "James Lewis Bean, Jr." Subject: Sharra? I have seen several references to a character named Sharra. Who is Sharra? lewis bean at mit-mc ------------------------------ Date: 2 Dec 82 19:48:25 EST (Thu) From: Tim Maroney Subject: Re: Who the Well is Nathan Brazil? Nathan Brazil lied about being God, or so he later claimed. It is rather difficult to understand what "God" would be in the Markovian universe, anyway; the person who made the Markovians? As to why Brazil turned Markovian inside the Well of Souls: I believe that the console could only be accessed by a Markovian, so the computer automatically made Brazil capable, assuming tha that was what he came for. What I like most about the Well World books is the incredible stream of creativity, and the relatively coherent way in which these extremely diverse and unusual elements are combined. I'm more than willing to admit a few deficiencies in Chalker's style, though; I just think his imagination makes up for these small flaws. Tim Maroney tim.unc@udel-relay (I'm sure!) ------------------------------ From: duntemann.wbst Date: 3-Dec-82 12:56:42 EST Subject: Space Cat! If I can credit anything with making me go after a career (as yet only partially realized) of writing SF, it would have to be Space Cat. As Gail mentioned a few issues back, it was a series of children's books written by Ruthven (pronounced "Rivven") Todd. I know of only four in the series, and they are good beyond price, assuming you haven't completely lost the feel for how you felt at age 7. Briefly: SPACE CAT: Air force colonel picks up a stray cat on the way to a secret project called ZQX-1. ZQX-1 is a rocketship a la destination Moon, and said colonel is assigned to pilot it. Colonel cons the air force into building a space suit for Flyball and fitting a spring-loaded g-hammock into the ship for him. Flyball and colonel reach the Moon in ZQX-1. Colonel falls down in a cave an d springs a leak. Flyball patches leak in colonel's helmet with a sticky sand-dollar shaped life-form growing in the cave. Flyball runs into some baloon creatures which have the interesting ability to float in mid-vacuum. (Even I caught that booboo, at age 7) ZQX-1 returns home safe. one gets the impression Flyball is the brains of the outfit. SPACE CAT VISITS VENUS: Flyball and Colonel take a refitted ZQX-1 to Venus, where they encounter telepathic moss, ammonia storms, and (best of all) a creature called a wyrgmbumia which resembles a bunch of bananas with sagebrush growing on top, very evil and a dastardly streetfighter. Colonel gets half-swallowed by the wyrgmbumnia before Flyball dispatches it. SPACE CAT MEETS MARS: On the way back from Venus colonel finds the ZQX-1 has blue venus sand fused into the rocket tubes. Since Earth is on the other side of the sun, they take a long orbit to Mars to clean the tubes out. While on Mars they find six-legged talking mice (interesting problem for Flyball) and a native lady Martian cat named Moofa. Once the colonel cleans out the tubs and has some other adventures, the three of them return to Earth. SPACE CAT AND THE KITTENS: Some time later, Earth has built a hyperdriven spaceship namedd Einstein, and Flyball and Moofa have produced a pair of kittens, Marty and Tailspin. Together they go off to Alpha Centauri with the colonel and another man. They find a planet full of miniature dinosaurs. Flyball and Moofa take a back seat to the kittens this time. After a great fight with an 18-inch tyrannosaurus, they all bundle up and head back. Dumb, huh? I suppose. There were some really well-done drawings in the books, and Flyball in particular had an ironic grin that I will always remember. I'll gladly pay five bucks for any of these books in any condition, and ten bucks for any in really good condition. Were it not for Flyball, I could well have grown up to be an insurance salesman. THAT is a debt not easily repaid. --Jeff Dunteman 301 Susquehanna Road Rochester NY 14618 (duntemann.wbst@PARC-MAXC) ------------------------------ Date: 3 Dec 1982 2118-EST From: DAA at MIT-DMS (David A. Adler) Subject: Bookstore Re: gail at RAND-UNIX's book list The unknown bookstore in Cambridge is the Science Fantasy Bookstore at 18 Eliot Street. It is located in Harvard Square across from the Harvard/Brattle MBTA bus stop. According to their add in the phone book they are New England's largest selection of SF&F books. They have a wide selection of both used and new books. --David ------------------------------ Date: 3 Dec 82 21:24:42 EST (Fri) From: Rene Steiner Subject: Time travel There are a lot of books concerning time travel, some good and some not so good. What are some favorites? Some of my favorite odd ones are: Dinosaur Beach (Keith Laumer?) The Man who Folded Himself (David Gerrold -my main objection is the fact that it's TOTALLY subjective - there is no mention of the outside world. On the other hand, it would be hard to write that story any other way.) The Flight of the Horse (Larry Niven) Roadmarks (Zelazny, and which may not count...) Tne I didn't particularly care for was called (I think) "Mammoth" and was about a house built in the age of the dinosaurs. I'm not really sure why I didn't like it (I read it a few years ago); something to do with Not Much Happens. Anyone care to branch into this subject of discussion? - rene ------------------------------ Date: 3 Dec 1982 1147-PST From: KRIEGER Subject: some miscellaneous commenta Comments. Anyway, I have been taking in various discussions going on in SFLD, and now that I feel that the dust has settled, I shall voice a few thoughts. re: Star Trek. The Doomsday Machine and Balance of Terror are indeed two great episodes. William Windom's performance as Matt Decker in the latter is a great standout for fanatics of unbalanced people. This is an old note, but there was a character named Decker in ST-TMP. In The City on the Edge of Forever, the potion McCoy injected himself with was an overdose of Cordrazine, which he brought to the bridge to administer a VERY SMALL dose to Sulu, who had been hurt while the Enterprise was being jostled by the "storm," which was actually "waves of time displacement." The woman Kirk falls in love with was named Edith Keeler. In defense of The Savage Curtain (anybody know why it was called that? My ignorance is showing), I thought the molten-lava creature, Yarnek of Excalbia, was a GREAT alien. Also, we got a chance to converse with Surak, "father of all we (the Vulcans) hold true." About Spock's brain, the person (sorry) who was talknig about confusion between 6th and 7th planets wrote about Sigma Draconis XII (12): watch when you change numerals. Last note on ST: Yes, I have read that Assignment: Earth was a pilot. re: Shrinking. An obscure, C-grade (or worse) movie with a dumb title was made called "Attack of the Puppet people." It starred John Hoyt as a slightly deranged scientist who liked to shrink people because he was lonely (I think). Supposedly loosely based on "Dr. Cyclops." As for "The Incredible Shrinking Man" shrinking down to nothing, recall that the last line of the movie is "To God, there is no zero; I STILL EXIST." re: Exp. Dec. This is the least technical or even apllicable to the replies on this subject, but in "Moonraker," Drax gets whooshed out into space at the end. I won't prolong a discussion on this poor excuse for a James Bond film (even a film). re: Star Wars. I, too, lean toward the idea that the "another" in "No, there is another." is an as yet unknown character; my impressions come from stuff I have heard and read. Some of you people are really creative out there, though. I also am leaning toward clone theories, i.e., the following pairs: Obi-wan/Emperor, and Vader/Luke's Father. I love how Lucas (or whoever else is responsible) is so vague in things like this, and also such things as "the son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi." Thanks heaps for the information. We have minds, so we may speculate. I haven't read for pleasure in months. I'm sincerely thinking about picking up THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS because it has so many recommendations from people regarding its AI themes. Until I should ever decide to speak again, John ------------------------------ Date: 3 Dec 1982 0128-EST From: Steven J. Zeve Subject: Dr. Demento in New Jersey As of the last I know, Dr. Demento can be heard on WAPP (a new NYC station) in the northern areas of New Jersey. I don't know the station frequency exactly, but it's an FM station somewhere around 103.5. 'Fraid I don't know where Dr. Demento can be found in western Massachussetts though. Steve Z. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Dec 82 23:43:08-EST (Thu) From: Steve Platt Subject: Assorted movies, tv, trash Referring to "the other" is clearly a typographical error; Yoda has quite obviously stating, "...there is the author's hope..." Dig it; Lucas walking on-stage over to Vader, "Ok big guy, no more special effects for you..." I think my favorite ST episode is the last one. You may interpret that how you will. -s ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 82 2:19:48-PST (Wed) From: decvax!utzoo!watmath!bstempleton at Ucb-C70 Subject: Movies in space, and idea for George Lucas A recent mention of movies in space brought back to me an old idea that I have had for some time. It might be neat if this message got to Lucasfilms, although I won't be surprised if they have not already thought of this. The idea is to make a movie in the space shuttle, a science-fiction one. Such a movie would be about the near future exploration of space. The special effects would be great and you could get real weightless shots. The nice thing is that this is quite possible. A director like George Lucas or Steven Spielberg could afford to rent one shuttle flight, although it would make the movie perhaps the most expensive ever made. They could recover the cost because: a) The film would become an instant classic, as the first movie made in space. People would see it even if it were crap. b) A name like Lucas making an SF movie would cause millions to see it even if it weren't in the shuttle. The interesting point is that you could probably simulate the weightless conditions with special effects right on earth for less then the rental of a shuttle. The reasons to take the shuttle are a) You can advertise that you shot the film in space and b) The director gets to go up on the shot, probably to act as cameraman as well, and thus realizes the dream of many an SF person, which is to go into space. Find actors that can stand the free-fall and I'd be glad to crew such a mission. NASA might also approve because of their plan of taking artists into space to bring back the message of space to the people. What better way to do it than a Lucasfilms movie? ------------------------------ Date: 3 Dec 1982 09:02 EST Subject: Send in the Clones From: Chris Heiny In the book versions of both SW & TESB the wars in which Obiwan, Darth, papa Skywalker, etc. are involved are referred to as the >Clone< wars, not the >Colon< wars. Princess Leia's last name is Organa, which would probably account for all the Organia confusion. chris ------------------------------ Date: 3 Dec 1982 1034-EST From: Stephen R Balzac Subject: Clones In light of all this flaming about clones, I feel I should send in a story I heard recently. There was this very famous lecturer, who, being so famous, was very much in demand. As a result, he was making megabucks. However, he was so booked up, that soon he had no time for anything else other than lecturing. Still, he didn't want to give up any lectures, even when he nearly suffered a complete physical collapse. His agent pointed out to him, at this point, that he couldn't go on like that, and suggested he have a clone of himself made. It would solve all his problems: he could make as much money as before, and only do half the work. So the lecturer went to MIT and had them make a clone of him. Well, this worked out fine at first, but after a few weeks something began to go wrong. The clone started telling off color stories and became increasingly obscene. The lecturer tried to stop this, and for awhile he seemed to be succeeding, when, one evening, he got a call from Harvard telling him that they would never allow him to speak there again, after the foul and abusive language he used. The lecturer rushed to Boston and went up to his clone's hotel room, on the 15th floor of the Hyatt. He started speaking to the clone out on the balcony. Their conservation soon grew violent, and he hit the clone, knocking him off the balcony, to his death 15 stories below. Of course the police tried to arrest him, but they couldn't find a charge that would stick. Murder was out since the clone was him and he was still alive. Suicide was also out for the same reason. But a smart DA found a charge that would stick: making an obscene clone fall. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Dec 1982 9:53:03 CST (Friday) From: Jeff Bowles Subject: ROTJ I especially enjoyed the material from the person at Rand-Relay who said something about the Emperor's daughter being the new hope. Ridiculous as it sounds, I have heard it before from someone who claimed to have "the inside story". (This person also claimed that Boba Fett is a good guy, and was taking Han away to revive him.) I don't know WHO the "other" is. I suppose that it's somebody we haven't met, and suspect that it's Luke's son. Probably the Vader/Luke conflict will end (with Vader's timely demise) in ROTJ. We can only hope... How does Lucasas plan to hide the advances in technology from the movie- goers ? It would be a real problem if the first movie (the one which has Obi-wan and Darth and Luke's Father and Leia's father and the clones) has NEAT NEW weapons that outclass things in Star Wars, which happens about 30 years later. Jeff ------------------------------ Date: 3 December 1982 21:27-EST From: Charles F. Von Rospach Subject: The other... At Octocon, they did a slide show on ROTJ. It was stated specifically that Obi does NOT return. There was one slide in which he appeared, and they were very careful to say that he would be adding the 'ghosting' affect to him in the final print. It was about the only specific thing they said at the showing, so I doubt obi-wan will return. It isn't 'klone' wars, or 'clone' wars, but colon wars. And it isn't colon for colonial. Someone stole the Emporer's Milk of Magnesia, and Vader (not Vadar or VADER) is his personal physician. chuck (chuqui at mit-mc) HAven't we pushed the cloning about as far is it will go? From the previous movies, I think it is rather safe to say that the answers will much much simpler than the tri-level cloning/father/mother/sister/wookie mixtures that have been showing up... ------------------------------ Date: 3 Dec 1982 1:51:22 EST (Friday) From: David Mankins Subject: T'other I think the other hope is Paul Muad D'ib, who will come riding a sand-worm out of the deserts of Tatooine, leading a pack of Fremen to take over the galaxy, replacing Zen with Islam as the dominant philosophy in the Star Wars mythology. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Nov 82 8:34:06-PST (Tue) From: decvax!microsof!fluke!vax1.witters at Ucb-C70 Subject: Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back, Radio Series I received the following notice in the mail from the local public radio station: The STAR WARS saga continues on public radio! Beginning Valentine's day 1983, listeners will thrill to the roar of terrifying ice beasts, the crash and fire of lightsaber duels -- and the quiet wisdom of wizened old Jedi master Yoda -- when National Public Radio presents an all new, exclusive 10-part radio series based on the record-breaking film sequel. The series stars Mark Hamill as Luke Skywalker, Anthony Daniels as See Threepio, and Billy Dee Williams as Lando Calrissian. Academy Award winning music and sound effects add to the excitement! Produced by National Public Radio in association with KUSC-FM Los Angeles, and with the cooperation of Lucasfilm Ltd. I received this from KUOW, Seattle, Washington. I suspect the series will also be broadcast by KPLU, Tacoma Washington. Perhaps the radio series will give some more clues as to who "The Other" is. For those who don't know, Valentine's day falls on Monday, February 14, 1983. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Dec 1982 0221-PST From: Henry W. Miller Subject: Re: The Other, etc. On the same hand, did you note that the term DEATH STAR was not used in the first movie? -HWM ------------------------------ Date: 3-Dec-82 2:21PM-EST (Fri) From: David Miller Subject: RotJ the Other etc... Allright, I wanted to keep it a secret, but I can't stand seeing anymore of this mindless speculation. THINK! The Other is supposed to appear at the end of the next movie, then s/he will not be seen again until episode VII. Episode VII is supposed to take place a while after RotJ, and will certainly not be filmed less than ten years afterwards. So you want a character that can be played by one actor in the next film, and a different one years from now. In the series this could be done by having it be another masked figure, but that would have to be a totally new character, and I don't think Lucas is going to introduce anybody out of the blue. Perhaps if it was a child in RotJ then s/he could be all grown in the later films? Yah that sounds pretty good, but where would a child come from in this series... maybe that shot of Leia immediately after the discussion of Ben and Yoda about the other did mean something! Maybe Leia will have a child by ? [pick one: Luke, Han] Sorry the correct answer is Vader. Vader will have another son by Leia. What How??? Well remember that scene on Bespin where Han is thrown in to the cage with Chewie, and says "I feel Terrible" well a minute later Leia is thrown in. Her makeup is smeared for the first time ever, she has changed clothes, she is very depressed, but seemingly unhurt, yet says in anguish "Why are they doing this?" Han on the other hand, is in terrible pain, is wearing his old clothes, and also depressed. Leia's torture seems reasonably obvious though not explicitly stated for reasons of the movie's rating. ****Spoiler**** The final scene of RotJ is Leia and Han being chased by stormtroopers, they come across a wandering Ricardo Montalban and his traveling zoo of primitive primates. Leia gives Ricardo the baby, the couple runs on and eventually get gunned down. Ricardo hides the baby in the chimpanzee cage, where it utters the word "mama". ------------------------------ Date: 3 Dec 1982 10:44:52 EST (Friday) From: Bernie Cosell Subject: Omega Glory Recitation I thought that the document was the Constitution ("We the people...") and not the Pledge of Allegiance ("I pledge allegiance to the flag...") /Bernie ------------------------------ Date: 3 Dec 82 14:10:54 EST (Fri) From: Grumpy Subject: st: episodes and movie Concerning the episode 'Miri'; the show started off with them running around and wondering why in the hell there was a copy of Earth way out here in an unexplored sector of the galaxy? ("It's the same mass, the same proportion of water to land, the same atmosphere composition, even the continents are EXACTLY the same as Earth!") They even mentioned that there had never been a colony out here, or anything, yet they used an Earth-style SOS signal. Unfortunately, after the first 15 min, all that wondering about the peculiar situation is lost in the scurry for a cure to the dreaded 'grups' disease, and is never picked up again. Seemed to me that SOMEONE had a solution in mind, but they ran out of time or money, or inspiration. Of course, this is far from the only inconsistency in Star Trek; shall we make a list? (a good one is: why didn't they use the shuttle when the transporter was broken? In many episodes this was the logical solution, but was never thought of, e.g. in the episode "The Enemy Within" (or something like that) where Kirk is split into his good and bad halves, and they try to fix him before the people on the planet freeze to death. On the first ST movie: it did have it's good points, one of them being Spock's transformation. (If you get Starlog, you know all about this.) He learned something about himself, and was a better man for it. I think the movie was really his story, only it was a minor part of the special effects and the rest of the 'plot'. Of course, being so changed he HAD to die in the next movie. (Anyone familiar with the Heroic tradition?) (just like Boromir and Frodo and other, more traditional heros, whom I can't remember) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 4-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #97 *** EOOH *** Date: Saturday, December 4, 1982 10:46PM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #97 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 5 Dec 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 97 Today's Topics: Books - juvenile SF Themes - shrinking Query - decompression Radio - Dr. Demento, A Canticle for Leibowitz T.V. - Star Trek Movies - Star Wars / TESB the Other, etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 4 Dec 1982 21:48:11-EST From: David-J-Aronson-H at CMU-EE-AMPERE at CMU-10A Subject: shrinking and kids sf Re both shrinking AND kid's sf books: One of the books I have not seen mentioned, but which fits into both these categories is "Fantastic Voyage", by Asimov. As I recall (though I'm not quite sure; I read it in elementary school), it was about some bunch of people shrunk by some corporation and put into a tiny sub-like contraption to remove a blood-clot from the brain of some important person in the corporation. However, one of the people shrunk was actually working for "the other side" (some other corporation), and tried to kill the others. A good kid's sf book, maybe even ok later if bored... Dave Aronson dja@cmu-ee-ampere ------------------------------ Date: 4 Dec 1982 0628-PST From: Henry W. Miller Subject: Dr. Demento Does anyone have any information on when the good Dr. appears on radio here in Northern California? I can't seem to find him anywhere, and I need a Spike Jones fix with a Tom Lehrer chaser. -HWM ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 1982 1159-PST Subject: Decompression and Canticle for Leibowitz From: WMartin at Office-8 (Will Martin) To second GMeredith's pointer, there has been an extensive discussion going on for well over a week now on the SPACE mailing list about minimal spacesuits, the effects of decompression, and related topics. I recommend SPACE V3 #60 especially; there is a long and detailed submission from David Smith on the effects of decompression and the timeframes involved. You can get back issues and/or be added to the mailing list by messaging "Space-Request at MIT-MC". I think highly of this list, and recommend it to anyone interested in space topics; I would think that this would include anyone who reads SF-Lovers. However, I note that the people here who I distribute SFL to are not nearly as interested in SPACE. This may be evidence of the classical fantasy vs. hard SF dichotomy... On to something completely different... I have heard three episodes so far of "A Canticle for Leibowitz" and recommend it. [By the way, the name is pronounced "leeb-oh-wits", and I am convinced that, if pronounced that way, it should be spelled "Liebowitz" -- "ie" instead of "ei". However, both earlier submissions here and the program guide from the NPR station carrying it locally spell it "ei", so I'll stick with that. Anybody have the book handy to check? I gave my copy away years ago when I passed my SF collection on.] Anyway, it has been quite elegantly done, with good voices for the narration and characters. The music is provided by a college group who do excellent liturgical chants. It has moved quite slowly during these first three episodes, which is fine with me -- there has been time to evoke the sense of the surroundings and the mood has been well established. Each episode has begun with a degree of explication, so you will not be lost if you start listening after some have been aired. Will Martin ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 82 09:40-EST (Wed) From: Steven Gutfreund Subject: re: pressureless space suits I started up this discussion in SPACE digest about 2 weeks ago. It has been going strong since then. The definitive answer should be in the latest issue (written by chip weems). Briefly, the answer is: no, for extended EVA's it is not practical nor safe. There are several SF stories that use pressureless space suits (or just the skin as a suit) High Justice: by Jerry Pournelle, Dreamtime: ?? 2001: Arthur Clarke. - Steve Gutfreund ------------------------------ Date: 4 Dec 1982 1956-PST From: Henry W. Miller Subject: Explosive Decompression and other appetizing things... If you want a better example of what a nasty explosive decompression MIGHT look like, pick up the March 1983 (# 162) of Green Lantern. It should be available at your favorite comic store now. Also in the DC universe, Katar Hol, a member of the elite Hawk Patrol of the planet Thanagar (which orbits Polaris) has had his body specially treated to be immune to the cold and lack of atsmosphere for a period of several minutes. This brings up another point: in the previous debate over shrinking, it became obvious that many of you are also into comics. Do you think that there is sufficient interest to generate a comic lovers digest? -HWM ------------------------------ Date: 4 Dec 1982 1730-PST From: KRIEGER Subject: coming to you again.... So soon? A few quick notes: Stardates: I have seen current dates (e.g., December 30, 1980) shown as stardates in things like tech manuals published for fans by either Bantam or Ballantine. The format is yymm.dd, I believe. The two digits used of the year, are of course, the last two. Don't ask me what one does when referring to another century. Wizard of Oz: I have heard of other comparisons to WOZ of such movies as TRON. Draw your own parallels as you please. Death Star: I believe it WAS mentioned in the movie; when the DS is preparing to destroy Yavin (and the rebel base), a technician announces "The Death Star has cleared the planet-- The Death Star has cleared the planet..." Vader replies, "You may fire when ready." (added that for effect) "commence primary ignition..." John ------------------------------ Date: 4 Dec 1982 0638-PST From: Henry W. Miller Subject: Star Trek OK, I muffed up. I meant to type V instead of X, OK? So sue me. In any event, on the question of the title of "The Savage Curtain". Well it was a good title, and I suspect that many folk did not catch the meaning unless they grew up in a show business family as did I. Going on stage is always going "before the curtain". In many cases, the curtain can indeed be a savage one. In this case, Kirk, Spock, Lincoln and Surak were forced, along with their "evil" counterparts to play out the roles of good and evil before an alien audience, and the threat of death. Truly, a "Savage Curtain". -HWM ------------------------------ Date: 3 Dec 82 14:10:31-PST (Fri) From: hplabs!hpda!gk (Gregg B. Kellogg) at Ucb-C70 Subject: The Other Another thought on Vader being "The Other." What other SW character is as effective at removing the high command of the Empire Navy? Personally though, my vote is for Boba Fett --Gregg-- ..ucbvax!hpda!gk ------------------------------ Date: 3 Dec 82 22:00:33-EST (Fri) From: Gene Spafford Subject: Others I'm glad to see my last suggestion got people thinking along new...er... angles? Now I'd like to expand in new directions. Instead of trying to second-guess who "the other" is, let's make some noise about who we'd like it to be! I mean, name some of you favorite characters from song and legend (etc.) and place them in the right position. Imagine ET with a light saber battling the evil Darth. Could even be symbolic - Darth represents the agency trying to colect on ET's phone bill. I could continue, but I'll wait and see what everyone else comes up with. Not sane, Gene ------------------------------ Date: 3 Dec 82 11:31-EDT (Fri) From: the Golux Subject: TESB scenarios again Well, I just went to TESB again last night, keeping my eyes open for things which had been mentioned in this list. Here are some of my observations: Item: I was watching very closely all scenes with Boba Fett (sp?), and I was unable to spot any instance when he was around and Vader 'was not aware of him.' Item: Boba Fett did NOT fly off into a pretty sunset with heroic music. He flew off in a slightly different direction, to the tune of engine roar. Item: I didn't see the chap carrying an ice cream freezer, but that's probably because I forgot to look. Item: In the tableau at the end, with Luke, Leia, and a robot watching through the port as Lando and Chewbacca fly off in the Falcon, Luke's arm about Leia's shoulder DOES have much more of a 'brother-sister' air about it than one of a more sultry relationship. Item: While I seem to recall Boba Fett being claimed to 'always get his man' (sort of a galactic Mountie?), I DIDN'T see it said in TESB. This may be an oversight on my part... Item: I wasn't able to see much facial resemblance between the Emperor and Obi-wan, but the voices ARE somewhat similar. I like the idea, already expressed by someone in this list, of these two being clones. The OB-1 name is a nice touch. So: I will change my scenario a bit. Vader is still a clone of the REAL Skywalker (Luke's dad), whom he killed. Han and Luke are brothers, sons by different (mothers &/| Skywalker clones). Leia MAY BE Luke's sister, therefore able to ... ah, 'get involved' with Han without offending anyone's morals, since Han and Luke have different mothers. (I won't touch the genetic problems possible.) A possible ending: Han and Leia as rulers of the galaxy, by acclamation, with Luke as a sort of 'heir apparent,' or possibly Champion as well. Lando and Chewbacca fit in there somewhere, too. And Yoda and Obi-wan spend the next five decades arguing over whether Yoda won their last chess game by default due to Obi-wan's discorporation. ken coar@umass ------------------------------ Date: 4 December 1982 03:00 est From: Schauble.Multics at MIT-MULTICS Subject: The Clone wars From Skef Wholey at CMU-CS-C Hey, people! Why have you all forgotten the CLONE WARS? I'll bet good money that there's at least one clone in the Luke, Darth, Obi Wan, and Luke's dad group. To explain Darth being Luke's daddy: Luke could be a clone of Darth, or Darth could be a clone of Luke's real dad (whoever he was). I don't think anyone has yet mentioned the obvious cloning possibility: Darth Vader and Obi-Wan are clones, splitting the duality of human nature between them. In the climactic moment, Vader and Obi-Wan are reunited. Hmmm... Seems I recall a Star Trek episode like that... ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 4 December 1982 03:42-EST From: "GWA at TOPSB c/o" Subject: Dr. Who, HHGTTG, Star Wars Re: Dr. Who If my information is correct the next Dr. Who season does not begin broadcast until next month hence the list is still up to date. I do however have the following information. Story 1: 'ARC OF INFINITY' by Johnny Byrne, Director Ron Jones Guest artists: Leonard Sachs as Lord President & Colin Baker as Maxil Setting: Amsterdam & Gallifrey Story 2: 'SNAKEDANCE' by Christopher Bailey, Director Fiona Cumming Guest artists: John Carson as Ambril Colette O'Neil as Tanha Setting: The planet 'Manussa' Re: Hitchhikers For those interested, a very good fan club is ZZ9 PLURAL Z ALPHA 23 Northbrook Road Aldershot, Hants GUH 3HE UK the membership is a bit expensive (about $10 after conversion) but if you are interested in any merchandise (like the two albums) it is WELL worth the money. Re: Star Wars 1) What if Obi-Wan meant that Darth (the dark essence of Luke's father) murdered Mr. Skywalker (the good part of his soul)? 2) Another topic of discussion, what is the meaning of the following passage? Yoda: Run! Yes. A Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware of the dark side. Anger...fear...aggression. The dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice. Luke: Vader. Is the dark side stronger? Yoda: No...no...no. Quicker, easier, more seductive. Luke: But how am I to know the good side from the bad? Yoda: You will know. When you are calm, at peace, passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack. Luke: But tell me why I can't... Yoda: No, no, there is no why. Nothing more will I teach you today. Clear your mind of questions. Mmm. Mmmmmm. Luke: There is something not right here. I feel cold, death. Yoda: That place...is strong with the dark side of the Force. A domain of evil it is. In you must go. Luke: What's in there? Yoda: Only what you take with you. [ Luke begins to strap on his weapons belt] Yoda: Your weapons...you will not need them. [ He takes it anyway. Luke moves into the almost total darkness of the wet and slimy cave. The youth can barely make out the edge of the passage. Holding his lit saber before him, he says a lizard crawling up the side of the cave and a snake wrapped around the branches of the tree. Luke draws a deep breath, then pushes deeper into the cave. The space widens around him, but he feels that rather than sees it. His sword casts the only light as he peers into the darkness. It is very quiet here. Then a loud hiss! Darth Vader appears across the blackness, illuminated by his own just-ignighted lasar sword. Immediately, he charges Luke, saber held high. He is upon the youth in seconds, but Luke sidesteps perfectly and slashes at Vader with his sword. Vader is decapacitated. His helmet-encased head flies from his shoulders as as his body disappears into the darkness. The metallic banging of the helmet fills the cave as Vader's head spins and bounces, smashes on the floor, and finally stops. For an instant it rests on the floor, then it cracks vertically. The black helmet and breath mask fall away to reveal...Luke's head. Across the space, the standing Luke gasps at the sight, wide-eyed in terror. The decapitated head fades away, as in a vision.] [ copywrite Lucasfilm Ltd. ] -Gregg ------------------------------ Date: 4 Dec 1982 0619-PST From: Henry W. Miller Subject: The "Other" Ok, for once and for all, let's get it straight: It was not "The Other", it was "Another"; OBI-WAN: "That boy was our last hope..." YODA: "No, there is another..." But then again, another WHAT? Another hope, or another champion? -HWM ------------------------------ Date: 4 December 1982 13:26-EST From: Christopher C. Stacy Subject: The Other, Darth Vader, and all that... I think this message, from SFL PM V1#126 (SW Issue 6), pretty well sums up how much we are likely to figure out about the next SW plot. ------------Begin Forwarded Message------------ Date: 28 May 1980 00:53 edt From: JTurner.Coop at MIT-Multics To: SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI Subject: TESB confusion In the interest of having some fun,here are some more possible ideas to totally confuse you. multiple choice, check one 1) the emperor is: []luke []obiwan []leia []r2d2 2) darth vader is: []luke []obiwan []the emperor []c3p0 []yoda []luke's mother 3) han solo has: []the force []frostbite []a hell of a headache []all of the above []none of the above []some of the above 4) luke's father is: []dead []alive and well and living on Tatooine []han solo []an ex-space shuttle trainee essay question explain why Lucas will make gobs of money with very little effort. ------------------------------ Subject: Henry W. Miller The Other, etc. Date: 4-Dec-82 11:25-PST From: ZELLICH at OFFICE-3 Subject: The Emperor and Obi-Wan Also speaking of Obi-Wan, several people have noted that in certain "Revenge" trailers he appears solid. This has been clearly stated by both Lucas and the ILM people who made the RotJ presentation at WorldCon to be a result of using uncompleted film in the trailers. They haven't yet introduced the effects that will make the solid-filmed image appear ghostly. Lucas and others have stated firmly that Obi-Wan is \still/ an ethereal figure in RotJ. -Rich ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 4 December 1982 14:49-PST From: Jonathan Alan Solomon Subject: another other The statements: Emperor (to Vader): "The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi." -- and -- Vader (to luke): "I am your father" do not match. Either the Emperor or Vader are lying. If you try to tell me that the Emperor is speaking in the objective for "special effects", I'm going to sick that line which was sicked on my possibility on you: "That's just too complicated..." Dispite what everybody speculates, there is a staggering contradiction here. Also, whether or not Vader is Luke's father is IRRELEVANT. To make this story come out happy (and to keep Luke in the protagonist role), Luke *has* to defeat the Emperor and end the Empire. Whether or not he also turns Vader into a "Good witch" from a "Bad witch" is irrelevant (shades of "Wizard of OZ") to the total plot of the movie, and I think if we try to look closely into the family situation of the characters we will get hopelessly lost in an entanglement which has no business in a SF movie as good as Star Wars. On the other hand, it *may* be that (here's where I get speculative): If Vader created the Emperor (in the image of Obi-Wan, with evil tendencies); then Vader has to either face this or be destroyed. If he faces this, he becomes a "good witch", a Jedi, and the Emperor goes away in a puff of smoke (yeah, too spooky for me too). I'm betting that Darth Vader (Dark Father, or Dark Lord is the idiomatic translation of the entire name) is completely evil and too far gone to be "saved", thus Luke (son or not) must destroy him and his evil image (the Emperor) (there that's much simpler, and easier to explain in 2 or 3 hours in a movie). The Emperor is merely a tool of Evil created by Darth Vader to take control of the empire. As long as Vader is "subject" to the Emperor's wishes, people feel sorry for him and accept him "just doing his job". They try to defeat the Emperor, and leave Darth Vader alone (well, up until now, that is). Also, Vader himself (who is human/compassionate/etc - all the "Good traits") has a better time accepting these "evil orders" as coming from someone outside him. Yoda sees through this? Most likely. Obi-Wan knows this? Definitely. Obi-Wan knows the truth about what happened. Obi-Wan saw Vader create this evil image of himself and through this realized that Vader knew his most evil weaknesses. Obi-Wan is no match for Vader in a fight in the Force. Yoda? Yeah, he's a teacher, and too much of a "true jedi" to go attacking Vader. Also, Vader doesn't know *all*, I'm not convinced that Vader even knows Yoda exists (that's one of Vader's weaknesses). I think that is currently Yoda's advantage, and Yoda is not going to risk that until it is absolutely necessary. Vader *did* betray and murder Luke's father. Obi-Wan doesn't lie to Luke. Lying is an evil trait. If Vader is evil, then it is acceptable (remember: this is a children's film) for him to Lie. Luke was left at the end of TESB not knowing which way was up. He was disoriented (that's typical in the growing up process, everybody can identify with being disoriented). Vader wanted to get him that way, because he could be "turned" if he was willing to believe Vader. The "other hope" is that Luke will get himself straightened out and will know Vader's weaknesses before Vader learns more about Luke. Only in this way can a true battle-of-wits be played out. It is not surprising (to me) that Obi-Wan doesn't see what Yoda sees, Obi-Wan sees human obsession as being the worst evil trait we (humans) have, it is obsession that probably caused Vader to turn dark, but the truth is that obsession with love is good, and obsession with hate is evil. Luke's current obsession is a good, loving one, and Yoda sees this possibility before Obi-Wan does (remember, Yoda has a more objective view of humans, not being one.) Still, Luke has to learn some things on the field. He must now decide what to do next. His faith has not failed him, but now his weapon will have to be an understanding of what is actually going on. He will have to decide which direction to go in, whether to be a good witch himself or a bad witch. He has to be a "witch" (in the classical sense of the word) to defeat Vader, Jedi do not fight unless actually attacked. Luke would not be able to even PLAN to fight Vader. Yoda is a true Jedi. Yoda has so much self control that it would be a violation of his religion to fight Vader, even to put himself in a position where Vader would attack him. Then after the quest is satisfied, Luke may decide to become a Jedi, but that's a totally different situation. Speculatively Yours, [--JSol--] ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 5-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #98 *** EOOH *** Date: Sunday, December 5, 1982 8:41PM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #98 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 6 Dec 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 98 Today's Topics: Books - Martin/Vinge's TRUE NAMES, Ellison's STALKING THE NIGHT- MARE + SHATTERDAY + DEATHBIRD STORIES, Clarke's 2010 T.V. - Mazes and Monsters, Star Trek worst episodes Movies - ideas for Lucasfilm, Star Wars / TESB / Revenge of the Jedi's other ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 3 Dec 82 22:26:21-PST (Fri) From: harpo!npoiv!eisx!pyuxbb!pyuxdd!pyuxjj!mhuxm!mhuxh!mhuxa!mhuxt!ea From: gle!mhtsa!allegra!phr at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: True Names Jim Frenkel (the former editor of the Binary Star series at Dell) said at a panel at Apricon V (a NYC one-day con held last month) that the security leak which allowed you to get copies of Binary Star #5 by mail-order from Dell has indeed been stopped, and that \\Dell will reprint 'True Names' in trade paperback form in mid-1983//. This would seem to confirm the rumor that Dell hoarded the remaining copies to hang onto the pub rights. The book will probably contain True Names all by itself, in a horribly overpriced edition with large type, lots of blank pages, and so on, like Jonathan Livingston Seagull. ~= I think this action is despicable. Ace issuing SF in trade paper before regular paper was bad enough; Dell has gone one better in the eternal struggle for greed. Hardcovers, at least, have aesthetic merits and carry some promise of withstanding the test of time, etc. Trade paperbacks are nothing but an excuse for higher retail prices. (Exception: publishers like Starblaze can justify it, because they're only able to sell a limited number of copies and need to make back their investment). Everyone should write letters to Dell deploring what they've done, and demanding a rack paperback reprint of Binary Star #5 (Nightflyers is a good story too). =~ PS. Has anyone asked Vernor Vinge what's going on? Does he show up at West Coast cons (I'm in New Jersey)? PPS. Jim Frenkel, who's a very nice person, is now running his own publishing house called Bluejaybooks. I wish him well. P3S. I've been told that the WSFS constitution was amended at Chicon IV to allow works which received inadequate distribution in the year they were published to be eligible for Hugo nomination a second time. Can anyone confirm or comment on this? ~= Might True Names yet win the Hugo award that it richly deserves? =~ Note: stuff enclosed as in '~= ... =~' is designated as flame. See other net traffic for explanation. --Paul ------------------------------ Date: 5 Dec 82 13:54-PST From: mclure at SRI-UNIX Subject: Ellison His latest, STALKING THE NIGHTMARE, isn't up to the level of the one immediately before it, SHATTERDAY... perhaps because of the inclusion of much older material (from the late 50's no less) when Harlan's narrative style wasn't quite as refined. And the rewrites can't gloss over that fact. However, many of the personal anecdotes are very entertaining (working at Disney, working on The Starlost, working at a carny, guest of a call-in radio show, dying, etc.) I really enjoy Harlan's extractions from his personal life. A few years ago I happened to pick up a copy of his DEATHBIRD STORIES which I now list among my 10 all-time favorite books and which made me an Ellison aficionado. That collection is really quite amazing in its depth and power. Admittedly, it is a selection of his best work up to the time but for my money it is *the* best book he's published. By the way, Ellison is one of the very few authors whose hardcovers I purchase. They are beautifully produced, especially when they have the Dillon covers like SHATTERDAY or DEATHBIRD STORIES; however, both are available in paperback for the more budget-conscious. Stuart ------------------------------ Date: 5 Dec 82 12:13-PST From: mclure at SRI-UNIX Subject: 2010 review n567 0431 05 Dec 82 BC-CLARKE-12-05 A BOOK REVIEW By Roland J. Green (c) 1982 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service) 2010: Odyssey Two. By Arthur C. Clarke. Del ReyBallantine Books. $14.95. (Roland J. Green is a science fiction columnist for the Chicago Sun-Times.) Arthur C. Clarke's return to fiction also is a return to the familiar territory of the classic science fiction film ''2001: A Space Odyssey.'' It is a thoroughly triumphant return, one of the outstanding works of Clarke's career. The book is a sequel to both the film and the novel based on its screenplay. In both, an alien artifact, the famous black monolith, is discovered in the moon crater of Tycho. An expedition goes out, in the book to Jupiter and in the film to Saturn, seeking further traces of the aliens. HAL 9000, the super computer controlling the ship Discovery, goes out of control and kills all but one of the astronauts. The sole survivor, David Bowman, discovers another monolith, which turns out to be an interstellar gate left by the aliens. He passes through it to the world of a distant star, is transformed by the aliens into a being of pure energy, and as the Star Child returns to Earth to scout and explore. In ''Odyssey Two'' David Bowman plays a secondary role. The character most on stage is scientist Dr. Heywood Floyd, sent to Jupiter aboard the Soviet spaceship Alexei Leonev as part of an expedition seeking to learn what happened to the Discovery, David Bowman and HAL 9000. In his Star Child form Bowman tours Earth, then returns to Jupiter to warn the Leonev expedition of the danger the aliens' plans represent for them. There are other complications, as well, such as a Chinese expedition that at great cost to itself discovers life on the Jovian satellite Europa, and the problem of bringing HAL 9000 back to life and sanity. Where there was a conflict between the book and the film, Clarke has followed the film, and ''Odyssey Two'' is stronger for it. Jupiter and its satellites appear to be a livelier place than Saturn, particularly in light of the knowledge gained by the Voyager probes during the 1970s. Clarke has integrated this new knowledge into the story in his usual deceptively effortless fashion. He is arguably the best of modern SF writers at depicting the wonder of the universe, but his rather austere prose can obscure this for readers unduly preoccupied with style. He also has integrated into the novel all his other customary themes. He explores the supplanting of human intelligence by computers, the evolution of intelligence itself beyond the limits of matter, the problems of space flight and extraterrestrial life, both sapient and non-sapient. Not that ''Odyssey Two'' is a pure novel of ideas, assuming for the sake of argument that there is such a thing. Clarke's dry wit is as inimitable as ever. Indeed, the passage of years and the breakdown of taboos in SF seem to have ripened it, or at least given it new fields to roam. Clarke's characterization calls for a special if brief discussion, if only because it is so seldom judged by appropriate standards. This is a novel, not a series of character sketches. It also is a novel about reasonably rational human beings, scientific and engineering professionals, on a dangerous mission in a highly artifical environment. This tends to rule out the exotic sexual proclivities or politically fashionable vices that would appeal to those with narrow definitions of ''characterization.'' An objective reading of ''Odyssey Two'' will find Dr. Floyd an excellent example of the character primarily serving as a viewpoint, but also brought admirably to life by the breakup of his marriage. It will find Dr. Chandra, HAL 9000's creator, a powerful picture of almost religious dedication. Any review can only skim the surface of a book so full of riches as ''Odyssey Two.'' Indeed, it will take more than one reading to do justice to a work that has to be ranked second only to ''Rendezvous with Rama'' among Clarke's novels. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Dec 82 19:08:33-PST (Sat) From: decvax!cwruecmp!honton at Ucb-C70 Subject: Dr. Who My sister recently became a Dr. Who fan and wants to know where she might get a hold of posters of the characters, etc. Please send me any pointers to such items. Also, Dr. Who fans, can you send your favorite plot, trivia, history etc? thanks, chas ( ..decvax!cwruecmp!honton) ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 2 Dec 1982 09:14-PST From: urban at rand-unix Subject: Mazes and Monsters About a year ago or more, I briefly reviewed a mainstream novel entitled "Mazes and Monsters". This novel purports to deal with the effects of fantasy role-playing games on a group of bright college students. In fact, it's a rather poorly written college-romance story. At the time, I said it was the sort of thing that would end up as a movie for television. December 28, on CBS. Mike ------------------------------ Date: 4 Dec 82 21:26:22 EST (Sat) From: John R Bane Subject: Re: Movies in space, and ideas for Lucasfilms I am not 100% sure of this, but I seem to remember that somebody gave Lucasfilms the use of a Getaway Special slot on the Shuttle. I don't know what could be done cinematically with one of these (they have to fit in a meter-long, half-meter-wide cylinder). Does anyone else know anything about this? - Bob Bane P.S. Lucasfilms has a VAX, supposedly known as the Dagobah system. Are they on sf-lovers? ------------------------------ Date: Thu Dec 2 1982 15:16:01 PST From: Lauren Weinstein Subject: Trek I'm certainly not a hard-core Trekkie, but it clearly seems to me that the best episode (by far) was the ORIGINAL PILOT entitled "The Cage". This is the one hour show (before Willie Shatner was brought in) from which "The Menagerie" was later pieced together (along with inconsistent new filler material). Many of the lines from "Menagerie" that don't seem to make much sense (in the "flashback" footage) make perfect sense when viewed in their original context. As it turns out, some footage that would have helped keep everything logical was stricken when "Menagerie" was edited, since some of the "Cage" dialogue was considered too "racy" (ha!) to be used in its original form. Rumor has it that only B&W prints of "Cage" are currently extant, even though the footage from the show that we see in "Menagerie" was in color. Certainly the print I've seen is monochrome. I'll leave it to one of you *real* Trekkies to chronicle the history behind "Cage" and the startup of the show on NBC. It's an interesting tale. --Lauren-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat Dec 4 19:04:35 1982 From: decvax!idis!mi-cec!rwg@Berkeley Subject: The Omega Glory -- The worst Trek? Reply-to: decvax!idis!mi-cec!rwg at Ucb-C70 I'm surprised at the comments on "The Omega Glory." Yes, it has one of those "Lost in Space" endings that you try to hide from people when you are introducing them to Star Trek. But this is a fabulous episode up to the point where Kirk and Tracy are captured by the Yangs. I wouldn't mind seeing it redone, with the first two-thirds untouched and a new ending bolted on. Rich ------------------------------ Date: 3 Dec 82 18:27:55-PST (Fri) From: npois!houxm!ihnp4!ihuxf!larry at Ucb-C70 Subject: Support for OB1 == clone I just carefully listened to the video tape of episode 4 "A New Hope". When Luke askes his uncle about old Ben, his uncle replies: "I don't think he exists anymore. He died about the same time as your father." What a strange statement when you take it out of context! He doesn't THINK he exists --but-- he died the same time as Luke's father?!!? Heavy indications of OB-1 being a clone! Speaking of clones, why were the Jedi fighting them? How 'bout this: the process of cloning produces one good clone and one bad clone. (Much like the Star Trek episode where the transporter splits Kirk into a good and bad person.) This would back up Vader being Luke's father --via the evil clone (call him LFC-2 for Luke's Father Clone 2). Then, could the "other" be Luke's father's good clone? (LCF-1) Great Story! Luke and LCF-1 verses Vader (LCF-2) and the Empiror, who must be OB-2, the evil Ben!! Larry Marek Bell Labs, Naperville ------------------------------ Date: 4 Dec 82 21:02:29-PST (Sat) From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!sdcsvax!sdchema!pha at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: The Other Did it ever occur to any of you out there that "the other" might be a character not yet introduced? It's possible! Nevertheless, I elect either Boba Fett or Luke's Father's good clone. Paul Anderson sdcsvax!sdchema!pha ------------------------------ Date: 4 Dec 82 09:06:05 EST (Sat) From: Andrew Scott Beals Subject: cloning around.... By Andrew.umcp-cs@udel-relay and Andrew.umcp-cs@udel-relay (ahem, sorry) If we're gonna get totally silly: It seems to me that Han Solo is substancially (sp) older than both Luke and Leia. (leia has allways seemed to be a fres young .. to me, and han as seemed to be about 35 or so)...anyway, leia is a clone of solo (oh, give me a clone, of my own flesh and bone...), with one chromosomal change. that would explain why she's ignoring luke and going after han. -andy ------------------------------ Date: 4 Dec 82 23:05:35 EST (Sat) From: Andrew Scott Beals Subject: RotJ the Other etc... actually, leia got knocked up (to coin a phrase) by chewbacca ("i'd rather kiss a wookie" "that can be arranged"). sillyness forever! -andy :-) ------------------------------ Date: 5-Dec-82 14:09:33-PST (Sun) From: research!sjb@Berkeley Subject: Star Wars <--> Tolkien In reply to Jon's (JSol's) comments in ''another other,'' here's something to think about (I'm not sure whether or not I'm serious at this point!): A SW <--> Tolkien relationship. The way Jon brings out the traits of the main characters in TESB, it is very easy to contemplate the following relationships: Luke <--> Frodo Vader <--> Sauron The Emperor <--> The Ring Obi-Wan <--> Gandalf Yoda <--> Elrond Adam ------------------------------ Date: 5-Dec-82 5:49PM-EST (Sun) From: Nathaniel Mishkin Subject: Meta-"Other" Discussion Here's something to think about: while we-all are sitting here chewing the electronic fat about the "other", there must be tens (if not 100s) of people tucked away at Lucasfilm and elsewhere who KNOW the whole truth. Perhaps the most expeditious thing to do would be to beat up one of them. I mean, sure, they must have signed in blood saying they wouldn't divulge the story, but when threatened with bodily harm, most people come around. Just kidding, -- Nat ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 6-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #99 *** EOOH *** Date: Monday, December 6, 1982 10:41PM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #99 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 7 Dec 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 99 Today's Topics: Misc - SF media, starting in SF Books - Wolfe's BOOK OF THE NEW SUN, Vinge/Martin's TRUE NAMES Miller's A CANTICLE FOR LEIBOWITZ Queries - decompression, Sharra T.V. - Dr. Who, Star Trek Movies - SW/TESB Music - space rock ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "WAJENBERG AT MERLIN c/o" Posted-date: 30-Nov-1982 Subject: SF in different media Daniel Spear recently asked for discussion of SF in different media, and the strengths and weaknesses of each medium. So here is my two cents' worth. I think each medium has a characteristic range of lengths it can accomodate, for any kind of literature, not just SF. Broadcast media, like TV, movies, and radio, must either limit themselves to one or two hours or serialize. A printed story, on the other hand, can range over a much wider variety of lengths (though even they are suffering from gigantism at the moment, I think). A one- or two-hour movie reduces to a short story or novella, if you convert the one to the other. This is one reason conversions are so often unsatisfactory. If you convert a novel to a movie, you are going to have to leave out some bits. If you are clumsy about it, you will leave out important bits; but even if you are clever about it, you will leave out some bits that any admirer of the novel liked. Hence he will find fault with the movie, or, at best, have to excuse the movie. The various attempts to make a movie out of Lord of the Rings are good examples of this problem. If you convert a movie into a novel, you will probably have to pad it out. This sometimes works fairly well, but then again sometimes it doesn't. The novelizations of Star Wars were middling at best, I think, and padded. The novelization of The Wrath of Kahn was pretty good, but only because the author was very good at inventing her padding and integrating it with the movie script. I think James Blish had the right idea when he converted several hour-long Star Trek episodes into anthologies of short stories -- one short story per episode. I also think the BBC or Douglas Adams or whoever had the right idea in turning Hitchhiker's Guide into a serial. However, not all novels take well to being serialized, or to being radically trimmed. These novels simply cannot be converted sucessfully to broadcast media. (Lord of the Rings might do well as a serial movie -- it was moderately good as a radio serial -- but it would take forever to produce. Also, at present there would be a strong temptation to introduce more flashy visual effects than the story really warrants.) Some stories cannot be turned into visual media because they deal too much with non-visual subjects. To use Lord of the Rings again, it is very, very hard to come up with human actors that will live up to most reader's expectations of Elves, who are more or less DEFINED as being super-humanly beautiful. Many stories, in many genras, are very mental and spend lots of time examining the consciousness of the main characters. This doesn't turn into film easily. (Echo-chamber voices to represent thoughts might help, but they are not the fashion at present.) Contrariwise, printed media cannot convey the visual impacts of movies and TV. That's why the novelizations of SF and fantasy movies frquently have a sheaf of pictures in the middle. If a book is to give you a visual or spatial impression, it must weave its spell slowly, with descriptive passages and allusions in the dialogue. This slow effect is not inferior to the fast one of a movie, but it is different and the one may not be consistently turned into the other. (The same limitations apply to radio as well as to books. Wind-noises and bird-song and ocean waves are all well and good, but they aren't the same as seeing the place.) Finally, books are addressed to an audience of one, while radio, movies, and TV are addressed to a mass. A movie, especially, is addressed to a large number of people sitting together in the dark, at the same time and place. TV and radio is addressed to a large number of people in different places at the same time. Usually, an author wants his book to be read by a great number of people, of course, but not always; many books are written for a limited audience. And books are not nearly as limited by constraints of space and time. The result is that books can practice an elitism which the other media cannot. A book can deal with rarefied ideas or feelings at a length which would leave a mass audience bored and restless, simply because most of them are not interested in that topic. This may be why science fiction so seldom gets into the movies except as space opera. Space opera has ready visual appeal and precious little intellectual appeal, while a great deal of science fiction is (or tries to be) a literature of ideas. Consider one of James White's Sector General stories. It would make a moderately good movie in that you would have a pair of human lovers (Conway and Murchison, though they are seldom shown acting tenderly) and an interesting variety of non-humans. But the point of these stories is usually a piece of biological deduction carried out by Conway. In a movie, this would almost certainly by shoved into a few odd minutes and be lost on most of the audience, simply because they were distracted by the sight of Dr. Prilicla (an insectile empath) or Dr. Thornastor (an elephantine pathologist). ------------------------------ Date: 6 Dec 1982 12:52:31-EST From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX Subject: Re re "True Names" 1. "True Names" was not exactly obscure, as it \was/ nominated for a Hugo in its category. The problem was that its category was unusually strong this year (although I happen to think that "True Names" was better than the winner, Anderson's "The Saturn Game", that may reflect my dislike of tSG's subject). 2. The rule you describe was indeed passed at Chicon; however, since it depends on the vote of the WSFS business meeting (which usually has more important things to deal with, unless it gets packed as it did this year by fanzine twits) it's not likely to be invoked very often. The rule was passed in response to a stupid squabble between Denvention and Chicon over SUPERMAN II, which had been released on other continents (away from most eligible nominators) in the eligibility year before it appeared in this country. This is what frequently happens with the WSFS bylaws; somebody sees (or thinks they see) a problem and tries to do something about it, but by the time a fix can be ratified and take effect (the rules have been interpreted that a concom cannot be constrained by amendments passed after the concom was awarded the worldcon, which award is generally announced before the final raitification of anything before the current meeting) either people have come to their senses or the external problem has disappeared. ------------------------------ From: "PAUL WINALSKI AT METOO c/o" Posted-date: 01-Dec-1982 Subject: Wolfe's BOOK OF THE NEW SUN RE: question about third book in the "Torturer" series Gene Wolfe's BOOK OF THE NEW SUN is a tetralogy, not a trilogy. The four books are: The Shadow of the Torturer The Claw of the Conciliator The Sword of the Lictor The Citadel of the Autarch THE SWORD OF THE LICTOR is currently available in hard cover only. The first two books are available both in hard cover and in paperback. Book four is supposed to be out in January. I won't risk a spoiler by discussing plot details of tSotL. Suffice it to say that the literary quality is up to the high standards set by the first two volumes, and there are plenty of loose ends to be tied up in book four. --PSW [THE SWORD OF THE LICTOR is available in a Timescape paperback. THE CITADEL OF THE AUTARCH is only in hardback at the moment, with a paperback to come in early 1983. --Stuart] ------------------------------ Date: 6 Dec 1982 0439-EST From: TYG at MIT-OZ at MIT-MC Subject: Miscellaneous Several comments: 1) Trade pbs are definately for the birds, except for Starblazes. Not so much that they're padded and the like, but that they are actually of poorer quality than regular pbs. Starblaze puts out a well-designed, aesthetic package. But even hbs are going downhill fast. I'm refusing to buy hbs of Foundation's Edge and 2010 due to the poor physical quality of the books. Edge is particularly bad, with glued binding and non-trimmed pages, it looks like an SF Book Club selection at 2-3X the price! 2) Anybody else have the probably futile wish that the other hope is R2-D2? The way things are going, someone (before this reaches the net) will suggest that the conciousness of Luke's father was implanted in R2-D2. Also, i think Lucas has been quoted that 3P0 and R2 will be the only characters present in all 9 of the movies (makes sense; they're about the only two who can be played reasonably over 21 years of real-time. 3) Totally off-the-wall suggestion; How 'bout SF-L for best fanzine Hugo? Yeah, i know the existence is pseudo-confidential, but if someone put together a couple of issues of "The Best of SF-L" and stripped off the computer headers, then all N000 of us could join Constellation and vote it in. 4) Finally, juvenalia sf (although this topic may have been mined out back in summer of '81). Did anyone else read Wyndham's Rebirth at an early age? The protagonist goes from about 7 to i'd guess 16-18 and is a telepathic mutant in a hunted society. I don't think it was deliberately a juvenile, although i may be mistaken, but it certainly struck me when i was 9. tom galloway [Do you volunteer to find the "best of SF-L"? It should be a few months before you've finished wading through the archives! --Stuart] ------------------------------ Date: 5 Dec 82 19:12:39-PST (Sun) From: harpo!zeppo!whuxk!3722trn at Ucb-C70 Subject: Starting in SF and other ramblings In addition to what you first read in the sf genre, think about when and why you started. In my case, in either 5th or 6th grade I asked the librarian if there was anything else I could read besides kiddee books. She showed me the 'young adult' section which consisted of 100 version of "Debbie's First Love", and sf. Luckily I reached the age for full use of the adult section of the library before I ran out the sf books. A crucial early influence was probably all the comics I read before that. 'Mystery in Space' and 'Metal Men' were around, and the usual Superman stuff. Back then, each issue had at least two half-page fillers on science. re: Fantastic Voyage, I believe that Asimov did the novelization of the movie, which is an Irwin Allen bonanza. re: book stores and such. Willimantic, Ct, about 20 miles east of Hartford, and 8 miles south of Storrs, CT. (home of Univ of Conn) has a lot of sf, and a comix division upstairs. They used to have a branch in Storrs called the Little Brother, but I don't know if it's still there. Sorry, the name of the place is Zeissing Brothers Book Emporium. In addition to the SF Book Shop in NY, there's also the Forbidden Planet, across the street from the Strand Bookstore around 22nd street. Check that address before you go. The Strand has some used sf, but find it for yourself (it takes some wandering). When in London, there's a store in the West End off the main theatre drag that sells comix and sf books, with a branch around the corner that sells all kinds of related goodies. I picked up a Tardis savings bank there. more food for thought: George Lucas == George Luke S. ??? ------------------------------ From: "JOHN FRANCIS AT EIFFEL c/o" Posted-date: 01-Dec-1982 Subject: Dr. Who Many thanks to the person who contributed the guide to the Dr. Who series. I printed off a copy for my wife (an avid Dr. Who fan), and she was very pleased with it. But - can anyone explain why she tried to beat me to death with it ? All I did was to tell her it was a "Who's Who"! ------------------------------ Date: 6 Dec 1982 0905-MST From: Evelyn Mathey Subject: SHARRA Sharra is a violent, melevolent flame-goddess-force created by MZB in an early book which has been rewritten in two books published by SFBC under the title "Heritage of Hastur(sp?)". Sharra is keyed to a ninth level matrix and is called from a different space-time dimension by a matrix circle. Since 'her' nature is violent 'she' awakens that side of the humans in contact with 'her'. If you don't understand this talk of matrix's etc, I can only recomend that you read some of Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover books. "The Bloody Sun" was the first written. "Darkover Landfall" is indeed the first in the sense of being set in the earliest time. I don't have the book here where I can check, but I believe that it was not written my MZB but by fans, and that she picked the stories out of many submitted. She has openly invited people to "play in my world" i.e. write about Darkover. The "Heritage of Hastur" is an excellent book to start with as MZB has stated the Lew has always been one of her favorite characters and is most reprsentative of Darkover. If you are really interested in the seven domains, the gifts of each family, the order of the books etc, the Condordance is a good buy. It was put together by MZB's husband and some fans who are close friends. There are also several very active fan groups. If you are not into parapsychology you may not care for the Darkover series. If, however, mental powers turn you on and you haven't read these, I highly recommend them. Do look at the covers carfully before buying. There are several Darkover books which are short stories written by fans. Some are fairly good and some aren't. Most contain at least one story by MZB, but they are a long way from one of her books. As far as I know MZB has been writing SF just about as long as any other woman in the field. She started when SF was very strongly male dominated. -- Evelyn. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Dec 1982 1004-EST From: DAVID.LEWIN Subject: Pronouncing "Leibowitz" The reason Leibowitz is pronounced "Leebowits" and not "Lybowits" is because it is pronounced in >>Yiddish<<, not German. For example, actor Ron Leibman ("Leebman"), or (allowing variant spelling) singer Bruce Springsteen. ------------------------------ From: "ISHTAR::FELDMAN c/o" Date: 30-NOV-1982 09:51 Subj: explosive decompression. First there was a difference between the events in 2001 and outlands. In 2001 you will recall, the pod was pushed up close to airlock. Thus although, the airlock was open to space there really was a substantial amount of pressure for the guy. You will note he was in a real panic to get the door closed. I remember even reading something about this, that clarke had looked into this and decided it was plausible. As an occasional scuba diver I know something about the bio physics. Divers must be very careful to expel air as they surface. If not a bubble will be forced into their blood, blocking flow to the brain. In Salt water the ratio is 31 feet of water to 1 atmosphere of pressure. Surfacing from 31 feet is the same change as decompression in space. If you were thrown thru an airlock by a burly guy in a dumb book saying "resistance is useless" you would have milliseconds to live. Exposed to a vacum as your lung capilarys would be, they would break due to the boiling blood in them. Perhaps the correct phrase would be "Your lungs will be useless". Further speculation leads me to believe that the entire body would rupture everywhere as the fluid in your body boiled What would be found a few minutes after decompression would be not unlike an egyptian mummy, totally desicated, strips of dried flesh hanging on a skeleton. Finding a vacum chamber at your friendly local highschool or college science lab, and observing a beaker of water in it would help you understand. I just realized this is really gorey, but then I did not bring it up. ---Geoff ------------------------------ From: "ISHTAR::FELDMAN c/o" Date: 6-DEC-1982 00:58 Subj: more garbage on decompression What is this fascination with explosive decompression? Anyway lets pop another bubble. Your lungs cannot hold more than a few pounds of pressure greater than ambient pressure. If our hapless astronaut were breathing ample pressure to survive in his space ship, the resulting change in pressure would be more than his lungs could contain for even a few seconds. The bends would be the least of his problems. However the guys blood would fizz as all the disolved gas's in it came out of solution. This would be due to the sudden change in pressure. Same phenomenon as popping the lid off a soda bottle too fast. I maintain that the profound descicating effects of a near perfect vacum would be the biggest problem for our person. Barring that he would be done in by an air embolisim, before the bends. Lungs would undoubtedly rupture from the pressure difference. You could of course blow out all the air, equalizing the pressure, that of course would not buy you much time. While we are on the subject... 60% of all SCUBA diving fatalities are due to good ol boring drowning. 35% are air embolisim. 2% are the bends, Loyd Bridges not withstanding. Air embolisim is the primary danger in Explosive decompression where the resulting pressure is ample for survival. Anyway, as I have stated, if you were dumped into space you would be freeze dried. Water stays in its liquid state as a function of pressure as well as temprature. It will, in space, turn to gas. ---Geoff ------------------------------ Date: 6 Dec 1982 20:52:28 EST (Monday) From: Ben Littauer Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest Vol 6, #66 I listen to Doctor Demento on WCOZ in the Boston area, and I noticed that certain passages of certain songs are "beeped" -- censorship in action. Since I know that some of you out there listen to the good doctor, I thought I'd find out whether the censorship is at the source (but would Dr. D do such a thing?) or whether I have to yell at the local station. Probably best to respond directly to me (unless this is really an sf topic). -ben- littauer@bbn-unix ------------------------------ Date: 6 Dec 1982 0008-EST From: JHENDLER at BBNA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #96 Folks- The quote "We the people..." does nopt come from the pledge of allegiance OR from the Constitution. The quote comes from the Declaration of Independence!! -Jim ------------------------------ From: "KERMIT::T_PARMENTER c/o" Date: 6-DEC-1982 13:56 Subj: The Tribble with Troubles I'm not a trekkie, trekker, or trekkist, but I've watched a few ST's and it's just not clear to me why there's all this SFL interest in Trek continuity. The way I make it out, there is *very little* continuity in ST other than the characters. For instance, Jim never learns not to mess around with alien maidens. Or consider the following: Klingons look a lot like humans. It's hard to spot a Klingon spy. Tribbles can tell the difference between Klingons and humans, but all the Tribbles were fired out the port and into the heart of some sun. Changing subject: The Purple People Eater was written and recorded by Sheb Wooley, one of the leading lights of Hee-Haw. [Correction: the tribbles were dumped onto the Klingon space-ship "where they'll cause no tribble at all." --Stuart] ------------------------------ Date: 6 Dec 1982 0751-PST From: CARROLL at USC-ISIF Subject: ST "The Enemy Within" transporter problem The planet below had terrible weather, so the shuttlecraft, being a better spaceship than airplane, could not be used. The transporter was malfunctioning, making multiple and incorrect copies of beamed subjects, so the crewmen on the surface couldn't be delivered from the elements, and no heaters, etc, could be sent down. BUT, why didn't they send down a bunch of blankets, tents, and such? Even if they re- assembled tied in knots, they would still have the physical property of trapping and storing heat, wouldn't they? Steve ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 6 December 1982 00:09-EST From: Vince Fuller Subject: coming to you again.... Date: Saturday, 4 December 1982 20:30-EST From: KRIEGER To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC Re: coming to you again.... . . . Death Star: I believe it WAS mentioned in the movie; when the DS is preparing to destroy Yavin (and the rebel base), a technician announces "The Death Star has cleared the planet-- The Death Star has cleared the planet..." Vader replies, "You may fire when ready." (added that for effect) "commence primary ignition..." Most definitely correct about "The Death Star has..." (I saw SW last night), but it was Tarkin, not Vader who stated "You may fire when ready". I believe the term "Death Star" was also used earlier when stating that "The Death Star will be in range in xx minutes". --vaf ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 6 December 1982 00:14-EST From: Vince Fuller Subject: TESB scenarios again Date: 3 Dec 82 11:31-EDT (Fri) From: the Golux To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC Re: TESB scenarios again . . . Item: I wasn't able to see much facial resemblance between the Emperor and Obi-wan, but the voices ARE somewhat similar. I like the idea, already expressed by someone in this list, of these two being clones. The OB-1 name is a nice touch. I saw SW for the n+1th time last night and noticed Tarkin's statement of Kenobi's name - when talking to Vader aboard the DS ("You, my friend, are all that is left of their religion"), the pronunciation was most definitely "Obi '1' Kenobi is here? Surely he must be dead by now". --vaf ------------------------------ Date: 6 Dec 1982 (Monday) 1849-EDT From: SPEAR at Wharton-10 (Daniel Spear) Subject: Luke and his struggle against the Dark Side If Luke's father was trained by Yoda, then he no doubt experienced some of the same lessons as Luke did. What if he went into the underground cavern, met his hooded dark alter ego? Who would emerge if he lost that battle: Darth Vader. Dan ------------------------------ Date: 6 Dec 1982 1826-CST Subject: SW:TESB -- cave on Dagobah From: CS.TEMIN at UTEXAS-20 The message suggesting that the emperor is Vader's creation leads me to consider the scene where Luke fights a Vader-image in the cave on Dagobah. Suppose that Vader went into that cave during his training, and met a similar image, representing his dark side, let's say. But instead of killing it, the image took him over. So the image is what we call Vader, and the jedi-trained (weak-willed) Vader is the Emperor! -aaron temin ------------------------------ From: "HARDY::GLASSER c/o" Date: 30-NOV-1982 23:48 Subj: Space Music Record List I have been following the "Space Rock" and associated music commentaries in SFL for the last few weeks, I've looked through my records and have produced a list of the ones that I recognised as such, plus a few that I remember but don't have in my collection. This list includes only record titles and groups, not individual songs that I remember. Stomu Yamashtu's Go Live from Paris (Island Records ISLD10) Tomita Holst-The Planets (RCA Records ARL1-1919) Tangerine Dream Stratosfear (Virgin International VI2068) Mike Oldfield Airborn (Virgin Records VA13143) Walter Carlos By Request (Columbia M32088) Jeff Wayne The War of the Worlds (Columbia PC235290) Moody Blues To Our Childrens Childrens Children (Threshold/London THS1) Moody Blues On the Threshold of a Dream (Deram DES18025) Soft Machine Soft Machine (Probe CPLP4500) King Crimson In the court of the Crimson King (Atlantic SD19155) Hawkwind Hawkwind (United Artists UAS5519) Hawkwind Warrior On The Edge Of Time (Atco SD36115) Hawkwind In Search Of Space (United Artists UAS5567) Hawkwind Levetation (Bronz Records BRON530) (Import-England) Various Wowie Zowie (Decca SPA34 (Import-England)) Cluster Curiosum (Sky SKY063 (Import-Germany)) Pink Floyd Meddle (Harvest SMAS832) Pink Floyd Relics (Harvest SW759) Pink Floyd Wish You Were Here (Columbia PC33453) Pink Floyd A Nice Pair (Harvest SABB11257) Kenny Young Last Stage for Silver World (Warner Bros. BS2676) Laurie Anderson Big Science (Warner Bros. BSK3674) The Doors The Soft Parade (Elektra EKS75005) David Bowie Starting Point (London LC50007) Magma Attahk (Tomato TOM7021) Flash and the Pan Lights in the Night (Epic JE36432) Deep Purple Book of the Taliesyn (Tetragrammaton T107) Landscape Manhattan Boogie-woogie (RCA NFL1-8028) Landscape From The Tea Rooms of Mars to the Hell Holes of Uranus Gong Flying Teapot (Charly CR30202 (Import-England)) Gong Angels Egg (Virgin V2007 (Import-England)) Planet Gong Flying Anarchy (Oxford OX/3197 (Import-Italy)) Bo Hansson Lord of the Rings (PVC PVC7907) Aphrodite's Child 666 (Vertigo VEL2500) Rolling Stones Her Satanic Majesties Request Flaming Youth ARK II Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon Vangellis Friends of Mr. Cairo Vangellis Albedo 0.39 Ron Geesin Right Through (Geesin records - RON323) (Import-England) Ron Geesin and Roger Waters Music from the Body (EMI/Harvest SHSP4008) Finch Glory of the Inner Force (Atco SD36124 [0698]) Pulsar The Strands of the Future (Kingdom KA20.226) (France) Cosmos Factory A Journey With The Cosmos Factory (EMI ETP72083) (Japan) Bonzo Dog Band I'm The Urban Spaceman (Sunset SLS50350) (England) Bonzo Dog Band The Doughnut in Granny's Greenhouse (Sunset SLS50210) Tim Blake Crystal Machine Michael Mantler The Happless Child and Other Inscrutable Tales Fred Frith Gravity Richard Peisley Passage The last SFL that I read before submitting this was V6 #83. At that point I had noticed that nobody had mentioned several notable contributions. Jeff Wayne's "War of the Worlds" is an adaptation of the story by the same name by H. G. Wells. "Last Stage for Silverworld" is a little known love story placed in the future and told in music. Daniel Glasser ------------------------------ From: "JOHN FRANCIS AT EIFFEL c/o" Posted-date: 01-Dec-1982 Subject: SF music I realise this is a bit late, but we've been having distribution problems since our previous distributor left, and I've only just got the last month or so of SFL. Anyway, here's my contribution to the SF-related music list. The Pink Floyd foursome are:- o Astronomy Domine o Interstellar Overdrive o Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun o Saucerful of Secrets The first two are from "Piper at the Gates of Dawn" (1967). The second two are from "Saucerful of Secrets" (1968). These 2 albums were later re-released as a double album entitled "A Nice Pair". Live versions (as opposed to studio versions) of all except "Interstellar Overdrive" can be found on the first album of the double album "UmmaGumma" (1969). Then, of course, there is always "Dark Side of the Moon".... Other space-oriented rock music in my collection :- o "Space Oddity" (David Bowie) o "The Rise and Fall of Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders from Mars". This is the full title of the David Bowie album normally referred to as "Ziggy Stardust". Notable tracks: "Starman", "Lady Stardust" o "Hunkydory" (also David Bowie) contains a track entitled "Life on Mars" o "War of the Worlds". Put together by Rick Wakeman, but contains lots of other people. The most notable, however, is Richard Burton as the narrator. If you've never heard this double album, you are missing a treat! Not in my collection, but brought back to mind by the recent discussions about Michael Moorcock - "Silver Machine", by Hawkwind. In my collection, but not rock music - "Space Girl", by Peggy Seeger. This is an excellent song (originally written for the Opera album "You're Only Young Once"), and is a 'Traditional Folk Song of the 25th Century'. And finally - "Urban Spaceman" by the Bonzo Dog Doo-Dah Band. (Honestly, I'm not making this up!). This was released as a single in England, and got into the top ten. Best chance to hear it, I suppose, would be to ask Dr. Demento. He seems the most likely DJ to know about the Bonzos. (If anyone can top this for obscurity, I don't want to know. And anyway, I actually HAVE a copy of this, rather than just having heard of it!). P.S. FLAME I'd rather wade through a discussion of a topic in SFL that didn't interest me very much (even at 300 baud), and see original contributions, than get yet another re-print of an opinionated movie review that I could get for myself from another source if I was really interested. EMALF [I try to put such things at the end of the digest, although book reviews from the press will go earlier than movie reviews. --Stuart] End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 7-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #100 *** EOOH *** Date: Tuesday, December 7, 1982 10:42PM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #100 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 8 Dec 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 100 Today's Topics: Themes - time travel, shrinking Misc - small presses, beginning SF Queries - Sharra, perfect space suit T.V. - Star Trek "Menagerie" & star dates Movies - SW/TESB/ROTJ the other, light-saber, plot prediction ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 6 Dec 82 20:32:17 EST (Mon) From: Fred Blonder Subject: Re: Time travel From: Rene Steiner There are a lot of books concerning time travel, some good and some not so good. What are some favorites? ``Door into summer'' (Heinlein) and ``Time and Again'' (author unknown), not to be confused with the movie ``Time After Time''. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Dec 82 10:03:04-PST (Mon) From: decvax!microsof!uw-beave!uw-june!palmer at Ucb-C70 Subject: shrinking Enough of this science fiction stuff, try reality? When comet Kohoutek (sp?) passed by one year, there was someone (in Arizona I think) who claimed that he was shrinking people (voluntarily), so that they could fit onto an alien's spaceship before the comet hit the earth (on Christmas, of course). As you can see, we don't really need sf authors, pseudo-truth is stranger than fiction. David Palmer ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1982 0843-CST From: marick at DTI (Brian Marick) Subject: Small presses I'd like the addresses of some small presses: Gregg Press, Elephant Press, and the like. Short descriptions of what they publish would also be helpful. Please mail direct to me and I'll summarize for the digest. brian ------------------------------ Date: 5 Dec 1982 1333-EST From: Stephen R Balzac Subject: Sharra For those who are unaware of it, Sharra is a "character" from Bradley's Darkover series. ------------------------------ From: duntemann.wbst Date: 7-Dec-82 12:22:51 EST Subject: Fantastic Voyage There are more worms in the concept of miniaturization than are immediately obvious, as with most good SF fetishes. I can think of only one author who even tried to come to grips with any of them, and that's our old friend Dr. Asimov. I read Fantastic Voyage when it was originally serialized in (would you believe) the Saturday Evening Post early in 1966, and later when the book hit print. Here's a couple of points Dr. A. brought to light: You do not compress space without dilating time. Time passed much more slowly for the microsub's passengers than it did for the Real World. What was one hour in the Real World was a great many hours in Benes' bloodstream. Communication with the sub was next to impossible. Rdaio waves produced by the sub were actually wavelength-reduced far beyond visible light into UV. It was tracked on its journey by radiation from its nuclear power plant. You do not simply poke a tube into Benes' lungs to grab more air to breathe; the air molecules are almost literally big enough for the sub's passengers to see; in the novel they used an on-board miniaturizer to reduce the size of the air molucules to compatibility with what was on board. Asimov never explained why, but his contention was that radioactive material is not reduceable, so that the atomic pile in the sub's engine was driven by a speck of nuclear dust which "grew" to the proper size as the sub shrank. The screenplay played fast and loose with some of these items, but the novel did its best to jive with physics as we knew them in 1966. Visually, the film was stunning for its time; in particular the views of the interior of the brain, with l;uminous purple impulses racing along spinderweb neurons, impressed the hell out of 13-year-old me. I caught the film's great error, even then: They didn't take the sub out with them, and left behind fifty tons of metal and glass atoms to automatically return to normal size inside Benes' poor head. Now that's an Excedrin headache... (In the book, of course, the micronauts made damned sure the white blood cell which engulfed the sub followed them out through Benes' tear ducts, and they "grew" in the miniaturization room with a proper pile of wreckage behind them. Asimov always comes through.) I know of no other work of fiction which dealt so squarely with the problems of large-scale miniaturization. --Jeff Duntemann duntemann.wbst@parc-maxc ------------------------------ Date: 8 December 1982 01:02-EST From: Stewart D. Rubenstein Subject: The perfect spacesuit Mike Meyer mentioned one example of the attempt to describe an optimal spacesuit. This topic has been at least glancingly addressed in probably hundreds of novels. My vote for the perfect spacesuit goes to the symbiotic growth in Spider & Jean Robinson's "Stardance". Even the humans' original spacesuits are pretty minimal. This is an excellent novel, by the way; the characters are mostly believable, including the "aliens", and I've read no other book which so vividly conveys a feeling for the absolute \awesomeness/ of outer space. stew ------------------------------ Date: 7 Dec 1982 2214-EST From: Nat Feldman Subject: Miscellaneous 1) Shrinking-There was an Avengers episode entitled "Misson-Highly Improbable", that involved a device for shrinking spies, tanks, etc. 2) Favorite ST-Personally, my favorites correspond exactly with Steve Balzac's, and my least favorite (to be kind) is "The Mark of Gideon". That episode's premise always struck me as utterly ridiculous, and was just a way of being topical. My eating club (Stevenson Hall, Princeton University, circa 1975) established an in-house ratings guide from 1 (worst) to 5 (best). The solitary episode that rated a five, I believe, was "The Trouble with Tribbles". It's my father's favorite as well. 3)My First S.F.-comic books, including the translation of the Frencch Tin-Tin's. Also, Citizen of the Galaxy and Runaway Robot by Lester del Ray. 4) WAPP, a New York, northern New JerseyFM rock station is at 102.5 on that rather crowded dial. I did not know they were broadcasting Dr. Demento, andd I would appreciate someone telling me whenit's on. 5) Someone (sorry I missed the name) suggested discussions on comic book topics or some such. Although I enjoy them, I have given up reading them for now mostly because I cannot afford them. I do credit comic books with my early interest in science, expansion of my vocabulary, and love of reading-despite the anti-intellectual connotation they entail. --Nathaniel Feldman ------------------------------ Date: 6 Dec 82 12:35:08-PST (Mon) From: harpo!eagle!mhuxt!mhuxj!mhuxi!macrev at Ucb-C70 Subject: SF beginnings I read my first sf in the seventh grade -- we all ordered paperbacks, and I ordered "Costigan's Needle" for me, and a book on teen-age etiquette to please my mother. From "Needle" I went to Wolheim's (sp?) "Green Man From Mars," Heinlein's "Secret of the Martian Moons," and the Lucky Starr series (remember "Lucky Starr and the Oceans of Venus?). Then I went through my Andre Norton phase. Her early stuff was fantastic. How about "Starman's Son," "Starborn," and "Star Gate?" For old time's sake, I reread Star Gate a few weeks ago. Even at my advanced age (I was in the seventh grade in 1957), I still get a kick now then reading some of those old "young adult" sf novels. Mike Lynch BTL Short Hills ------------------------------ Date: 7 Dec 82 16:45:32 EST (Tue) From: Fred Blonder Subject: Re: Trek From: Lauren Weinstein Many of the lines from "Menagerie" that dont seem to make much sense (in the "flashback" footage) make perfect sense when viewed in their original context. --Lauren-- ------------------------------ One of these which took me quite a long time to figure out is how they got the footage of Capt. Pike walking back to the Talosian's elevator with the girl after he had beamed down to the planet, which was televised to the Enterprise at the end of ``The Menagerie''. Since they couldn't have known of the need for this scene when ``The Cage'' was filmed, and the notion that they went to the trouble of re-creating the set for a 5-second shot seemed equally ridiculous, there was no explanation for where this film came from. The answer lies in Capt. Pike's request: ``You'll give her back her illusion of beauty?'', to which the Talosian replies: ``Yes, that and more.''. The ``more'' the Talosian was referring to (in the original) was the illusion of Capt. Pike returning with her to the Talosian's caves, not ``more beauty'' as was implied in the version which made it to TV. Thus in ``The Cage'' the film is of an illusory Capt. Pike returning to the elevator while in ``The Menagerie'' it is used as a scene of the real capt. Pike. This change of context seems rather clever. (and fortunate too, that they were able to do it) ------------------------------ From: CAIN@MIT-AI Date: 12/07/82 22:42:13 Subject: Stardates and ROTJ CAIN@MIT-AI 12/07/82 22:42:13 Re: Stardates and ROTJ To: sf-lovers at MIT-MC Just a quick note: Stardates are an arbitrary sequence of 5 digits (XXXX.X) in Star Trek. SUPPOSEDLY, they take into account relativistic effects, but noone has EVER explained that one to me. About ROTJ, Obi Wan, and "The Other"-- Why shouldn't Obi be corporeal [sic]??? ROTJ chronolgically comes BEFORE Star Wars (or A New Hope, as you like), and thus has not yet been killed. Also, since this is (most probably, it seems to me) about the end of the clone wars, why does it even have to mention "the other"? In fact, they could make alot more if they DON'T reveal him...(her?) Jonathan Levine CAIN @ MIT-AI (at least for December...) ------------------------------ Date: 6 Dec 82 20:19:54 EST (Mon) From: Fred Blonder Subject: Re: "Won back from the dark side" Subject: "Won back from the dark side" Vader? won back from the dark side? How large a stack of bibles would you make Adolf Hitler stand on before you believe he was "won back" from genocidal tendancies? After all, Vader only destroyed one planet... No! It was Tarkin who ordered Alderaan destroyed. Vader just sat back and enjoyed the show. ------------------------------ Date: 5 December 1982 01:43 mst From: Schauble.HDSA at M.PCO.LISD.HIS Subject: "Won back from the dark side" Reply-to: Schauble%PCO-Multics at MIT-MULTICS Date: 1 Dec 1982 2233-PST Subject: "Won back from the dark side" From: Dave Dyer Vader? won back from the dark side? How large a stack of bibles would you make Adolf Hitler stand on before you believe he was "won back" from genocidal tendancies? After all, Vader only destroyed one planet... Unless my memory is suffering from several undetected parity errors, it wasn't Vader who destroyed Alderaan. It was Governor Tarkin. Paul ------------------------------ Date: 6 Dec 82 16:23:01-PST (Mon) From: decvax!duke!mcnc!dennis at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: SW other again Ah HAH! If it isn't someone we have seen, and there are no new characters, then it must be the Millenium Falcon itself! Don't forget that Han had to get C3P0 to talk to the Falcon in order to learn what the trouble was after Lando didn't fix it. Therefore, there's something in there... With tongue firmly planted in cheek... ------------------------------ Date: 6 Dec 1982 1654-EST From: Stephen R Balzac Subject: The Other In reality, the other is Kim Kinnison (the Gray Lensman, from Doc Smith's books), who will drop in via Hyper-Spatial tube with Mentor right behind him, and Richard Seaton in the Skylark of Valeron to back them up. ------------------------------ Date: 7 Dec 82 20:02:10 EST (Tue) From: Rene Steiner Subject: Luke's light saber When his hand was cut off, his light saber fell into that long waste disposel shute (or whatever it was). When he fell in, and landed at the bottom, did he get it back in the moment before he fell threw the trapdoor? This brings another, old, question: if Luke's father gave Obi-wan his lightsaber to give to Luke, and Darth is Luke's father, where did Vader get his saber? I got the impression that they were fairly rare. (Maybe he saved up box tops from Crunchy Rebels cereal?) - rene ------------------------------ Date: 6 Dec 82 21:16:03 EST (Mon) From: Fred Blonder Subject: ROTJ: A scene I'd like to see The line: ``I've got a bad feeling about this.'' has of course become a Star Wars cliche. The proper person to utter the line in RotJ would be Darth Vader at the start of the light saber battle between him and Luke, when he realizes Luke has been practicing. ------------------------------ Date: 06 Dec 82 20:55:56 PST (Mon) From: Stephen Willson Subject: TESB Plot Greetings fellow speculators: I think we can deduce a lot about the plot of TESB by reasoning from a purely technical standpoint. Consider the over-riding consideration: Lucas is a sensitive person. He wants very much to make as many people happy as possible. This is his mission. In SW4:ANH, he hit the broadest possible market: the average American. The reviews, while very favorable, still contained some biting remarks. Where is the love interest? Where is the deeper meaning? The evil vs. good was often considered too black and white. The result of this is SW5:TESB, in which the issues are less black and black and there is a love interest. But where is the deeper meaning? I would like to suggest that many people will be satisfied with Lucas if he does something somewhat abstract in SW6:RotJ. He has the job of doing this while not alienating the average American. How can the wizard of ILM accomplish both goals? Simple, as I see it. What's your favorite SF movie with 'deep' meaning? 2001, of course. But 2001 is special: you can see it stoned and still think it's great, because of the flashy ending. Here's how I see the basic plot structure of SW6: It has to start out with punch. That's to keep Mr. Average American happy. The punch is from Lando and Chewie rescuing Han. Using the usual business of intercutting two plots that join later (ala the first two movies), we also see Luke continuing his training and wrapping up a few plot strands in conference with Yoda and OB1. After Han is rescued (Luke is still training) he returns to the new rebel hide-out on Tatooine to be reunited with the princess. The main action here is Han's troublesome decision whether to settle down or to remain Han 'Solo'. How will this be resolved? This is intercut with the rebel's preparing the final assault (do or die) on the Emperor's palace. Luke is not seen so much . In fact, we begin to worry, will he arrive in time to help out? After exposing Han's reluctance to settle down, we start intercutting with Darth and the Emperor. We are introduced to 'the other' during this time. Darth is in charge of organizing the defense of the Palace. Still no word from Luke, as the rebel's begin to transport themselves to the Palace. Han is in charge, since the guy in charge in SW5 was killed. The battle begins (lots of explosions for Mr. Average American). Han is almost killed, but *Surprise*, Luke shows up under the ethereal guidance of OB1 and saves him. (After all, as Han says, "That's two you owe me Junior".) We begin intercutting between Luke's independent trek through the Palace in search of Darth and the Emperor, and the general battle. Luke and Darth come upon each other. Now comes the 'deep' part that Mr. Average American can get into. Remember 2 things: in SW5 we saw just a taste of Darth's power in terms of winging stuff around. Also, SFX have improved since then. One imagines the insuing fight to be fought not only with light sabres but with the maximum available power from the force. The 'deep' part is going to be the mental battle that wages between Luke and Darth. Darth is going to pull out all the stops and do clever things to try to trick Luke (like changing form and causing all kinds of neat illusions to try to confound Luke). Fortunately, the ethereal OB1 will help out. Their fight will be quite psychodelic. Meanwhile, the more mundane fighting by the rebels will be intercut. Leia will be captured along with Han by the Emperor. They will be held as hostages against an advancing Luke and army. (Luke will have dispatched Vader by this time.) Unfortunately, Luke is extremely weak from his battle with Darth, and can't save them alone. Good thing for the 'other', who will provide the required opening. Everyone is saved. Han settles down with Leia. Luke marries the Emperor's daughter, thus unifying the kingdom. We have a psychodelic ending. (You can tell that I think many people will take the psychodelic ending to be 'deep', somehow.) Darth and the Emperor are dispatched. The long struggle to rebuild a civilized Empire begins as the screen irises down to reveal the credits. Remember, you heard it here first! -- Steve Willson ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 9-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #101 *** EOOH *** Date: Thursday, December 9, 1982 2:47AM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #101 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 9 Dec 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 101 Today's Topics: Themes - time travel Misc - pronouncing Leibowitz, beginning SF Cons - Chicago convention T.V. - favorite Star Trek episodes Movies - SW/TESB/ROTJ's Other + Tolkien ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 December 1982 20:14-EST (Wednesday) From: Paul Fuqua Subject: Comments on Reality and Time Travel Comments on two subjects, not on the combination. Reality: Date: Sunday, 28 November 1982 15:35-PST From: Jonathan Alan Solomon To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC Re: The Other [rebuttal] (....) The Force binds the universe together. Every physical object, living or not, has a mapping into some universal array. Ideas are merely conceptions of something not yet explained in this universal array. If you decide that the world is made up of Protons, Neutrons, and Electrons, and there is no strong opposition (counter-example) to that theory, then it holds. Every mind in the universe begins to accept this theory as fact. Once the theory is proven beyond reasonable doubt, it becomes part of our interpretation of reality. (....) I know this passage appeared quite a while ago, but I only just discovered Bboards and mailing lists. Reality as only the perceptions of the observer is quite a popular theme in writing of several genres, but only once have I seen a story actually *built* on the theme. The story is "The New Reality," a novella by Charles L. Harness, published in 1953 and reissued in 1969. The basic situation involves a future (1960s!) International Censorship Board, charged with the task of preventing changes in the current reality. The investigator A. Prentiss Rogers, under the orders of E, is studying the activities of a Professor Luce. Luce, it turns out, has developed a device with which he expects to reach the base reality by destroying the present one, through forcing a single photon to reflect off a prism set at *precisely* 45 degrees. The photon will be unable to "decide," and slow down, blowing away the present reality. There is a lot of information presented, in an authentic-sounding manner, about past realities differing from the present. For example, no people until the early Greeks noticed that ships disappeared over the horizon, so the world was flat until then. Or, the elements that Mendeleev predicted to fill the holes in the periodic table did not exist until believed-in. The ending is somewhat disappointing: the base reality is some sort of garden, the A. in Prentiss's name stands for Adam, E is Eve, and Luce is a snake. The reissue contains also "The Rose," a longer and, to me, more interesting novel (Art vs Science), "The Chessplayers," about a chess-playing rat named Zeno, and an introduction by (what, him again?) Michael Moorcock. Time Travel: The most logical time-travel story I read was a short-short whose basic premise was that when one rides in a time machine (a la H G Wells), it's not the machine that moves through time, but its *contents*. pf ------------------------------ Date: 8 Dec 1982 1750-PST Subject: Leibowitz From: Mike Leavitt is how it is spelled on the book title I've got. Mike ------------------------------ Date: 7 Dec 82 9:33:16-PST (Tue) From: harpo!zeppo!whuxk!houxm!ihnp4!ihldt!tmh at Ucb-C70 Subject: re: pronouncing Leibowitz Although I don't usually flame (and this ain't much of a flame anyway) the reason given for the pronunciation of Leibowitz struck me as so outlandish I felt I had to reply. For one thing Yiddish is Old German and was the language the German Jews fleeing to the East took with them in the Middle Ages/Reforemation. I also believe that Lieb is pronounced Leeb in modern German as well (but not speaking German I am not sure of this). I think English is the language causing confusion not Yiddish or German. After all to quote G. B. Shaw you can justify spelling the word fish as ghothi (or somenthing close to this) in English. The only person qualified to answer the way the name of the is pronounced is the author (vis a vis Byron's Don Juan (pronounced Jou-an not Huan) just to get back at those snotty know-it-alls who spoke Spainish and kept correcting him). Oh well, Tom Harris ------------------------------ Date: 8 Dec 82 10:00:55-PST (Wed) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rocheste!heliotis at Ucb-C70 Subject: My origins into SF This should also go to net.jokes! The first SF book I read as a kid was "The Gilead Bomb". I stayed up late into the night to finish it--it was the first time I had read an entire book in one shot. My intellectual peak came a few years later when I read Asimov's Foundation Trilogy (which is now a 'Quadragy'). Does everyone know about the "YES" song about it? Things went downhill after I joined the SF Book Club, and never sent in the little cards saying I did *NOT* want the selection-of-the-month. My parents ended up with a pile of bills, and I ended up with a shelf full of unread books. By the way, I read "HARLIE" recently, on a recommendation. I thought it had very few redeeming aspects. If anyone disagrees, I'd love to hear some opinions. Jim Heliotis ------------------------------ Date: 8 Dec 82 11:01:49-PST (Wed) From: npois!houxm!ihnp4!ihima!dhp at Ucb-C70 Subject: Chicago SF Convention Announcing, a Science Fiction Convention: WindyCon IX (a holiday relaxicon) December 10-12 1982 $15 at the door Guests of Honor: Location: Frederik Pohl, Hyatt Lincolnwood Jack Williamson 4500 West Touhy Lincolnwood IL (312) 677-5400 WindyCon is normally a full-spectrum regional convention. However, since Chicago (and more importantly Chicago convention fandom) have just finished hosting the World Science Fiction Convention this year, we decided to try to decompress by throwing a big weekend party. Programming (sic) is minimal, no films, but oh, those all-night parties! An Art Show will allow artists to show off their best, and you can bid on the pieces at the Saturday night auction. The Huckster Room contains book and sf curiosity sellers, for your enlightenment and entertainment. Getting There: By car: Take either the Tri-State Tollway (I-294) or the Edens Expressway (I-94) to Touhy Avenue, and go east. The Hyatt Lincolnwood is a large purple building on the north (left) side of the street, about a mile east of the Edens. By public transport: Take the Howard-Jackson Park/Englewood transit line to Howard Street. From there take either the Route 290 or 291 NORTRAN bus (note - last bus leaves Howard Street at 10:30 p.m.) In addition, the hotel is arranging a shuttle service to the Howard Street Station (sorry, but I have no schedule on that. Call the hotel and ask). Come and enjoy a relaxing weekend with us crazies! Douglas Price Analysts International Corp . at BTL (Indian Hill) IL ...!ihps3!ihima!dhp (312) 979-4416 ------------------------------ Date: 6 Dec 82 12:13:51-PST (Mon) From: decvax!utzoo!watmath!rtris at Ucb-C70 Subject: Best ST Doesn't anybody out there like Amok Time? It's among my favourites. Ralph. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Dec 1982 2240-EST From: Mike First Subject: City on the Edge of Forever I agree with those who claimed that "City..." was the best ST episode. The connection with Harlan Ellison is not quite what one would expect from the title credits. A number of years ago, Tom Snyder (on his now-defunct Tomorrow Show) had a segment on "Trekkies". He started the segement out with DeForrest Kelley and Jimmy Doohan as guests, and actually made them looke pretty stupid if I remember correctly (if you ever have had the honor to hear them speak ot a convention, you won't be very suprised). Well anyway, in the second half of the episode, he had on Harlan Ellison, who proceeded to claim that ST was crap, that Roddenberry totally altered his script (I believe he even tried to have his name taken off the credits) and that Trekkies were total fools! Given Ellison's personality (and egged on by Snyder) it was not an shocking event. Needless to say, the sharp tongued Ellison did take McCoy and Scotty by surprise and they were rather dumbfounded, kind of mumbling afterward and looking ridiculous (Ellison made some comment about how funny it was that these two actors continue to cater to the Trekkies and that neither has done anything since). I wish I had a VTR for this one! (also I would have loved to have seen the original script-- I still think this "ruined-for-television" version was superlative!) --Michael (FIRST@SUMEX-AIM) ------------------------------ Date: 8 Dec 82 7:46:59-PST (Wed) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rocheste!FtG at Ucb-C70 Subject: SW/ESB Q&As Last words (?) on Other/etc.- Flame on- It appears that the main reason that Leia is ignored/discounted as being even a serious candidate for the Other is because she's a SHE (gasp). SF has always been known to be the last refuge of MCPs, so what can you expect? Flame off- Re: "Goodness" of exit of BF's ship. Yes, it is tinged in positive/emotional colors and sound, and it indeed is "in honor" of someone on that ship, but we already know there is a good guy aboard. Think about- (Stumped, here's a hint- his initials are H.S.) Time to start a new discussion- Question: Who's in charge here? The SW movies so far seem to be extremely vague about the leadership of the rebels/Alliance. Why? Who is in charge, where are they, what is their future role in a post-empire government? Princess Leia appears to be the highest ranking royalty, assuming the Alliance is organized along those lines. Luke is said to be in charge of the rebel forces on Hoth though, despite the fact he is merely "Commander" while there is Leia and a general around. (Apparently even in the SW universe, no on ehas figured out that separation of services is a bad idea, the empire also suffers from the same problem.) If we knew who the true leaders of the rebels are, we could figure out whjo comes out ahead in RotJ. FtG rocheste! ------------------------------ Date: 8 Dec 1982 0323-EST From: Greg Skinner Subject: SW <--> Tolkien Actually, the Emperor <--> Morgoth, since Morgoth is at the top of the list of enemies. In addition, we don't know who the Emperor really *is* yet -- according to the SW book his former name was Senator Palpatine. This leads me to believe that the Emperor is some "other" sort of character who, like Vader, chose the dark side. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Dec 1982 02:36:50-EST From: csin!alex at CCA-UNIX Subject: No, there is another. To me it is interesting that Vader told Luke to release his anger, "Only your hatred (anger?) can destroy me." This is of course the opposite of what Yoda and Obi-wan have said ("Mind what you have learned -- save you it can"). When Luke started getting emotional was when he started losing control of the Force -- here we see that the Dark side is controlled by strong negative emotions, whereas the good side is almost a Zen-like trance. Is it possible that Vader's disclosure that he was Luke's father was what helped Luke in the end? Recall that at that time Luke was beaten and injured, and hanging on for his life at the end of the ... thing. Luke did not accept the implication of Vader's disclosure, however, and looked down and allowed himself to fall. The way it looked to me, he had regained some calm and control when he did that. Later on the Falcon, when Vader mind-speaks to him, his reaction is not to Vader -- he hears Vader but does not respond, either negatively or positively to Vader. Instead, he wonders why Ben didn't tell him. Clearly he accepts the fact that Vader is his father at that point. But he does not accept any implications of that fact. NOW FOR A SPOILER. At ChiCon, some of the information we gleaned from the LucasFilm people (who, me? I was sitting in the fourth row....) indicated that there will be only two planetfalls (Dagobah and Tatooine), and that no new major characters were being introduced. Also, all loose ends will be tied up. Some of this is inferred, some is from statements made by the LucasFilm rep. (I can't remember if it was Gary Kurtz or someone else.) Alexis Layton alex@CCA-UNIX decvax!cca!alex P.S. Would someone who was there please mail me? I want to check my memory on something. ------------------------------ Date: Tue Dec 7 13:25:39 1982 From: decvax!utzoo!watmath!watarts!geo@Berkeley Subject: The Other Interesting suggestion that OB1, Darth, the Emperor and Boba Fett might be clones of one another. I seem to recall that Darth was much taller than OB1. Did OB1 then have a stunted childhood ? Just how did all these clones get distributed around all over the place. What kind of childhood did they have? Geo Swan Integrated Studies University of Waterloo ------------------------------ Date: 8 Dec 82 12:02:26-PST (Wed) From: hplabs!hp-pcd!everett (Everett Kaser) at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: Stardates and ROTJ - (nf) #R:sri-unix:-471800:hp-pcd:8200006:000:1083 hp-pcd!everett Dec 8 08:37:00 1982 From: Everett Kaser hplabs!hp-pcd Revenge of the Jedai does *not* take place before Star Wars. It follows directly after The Empire Strikes Back (both in the order it was produced and in the chronological order of the story). The Star Wars epic as it is supposed to be conceived of by George Lucas is this: It consists of nine parts (movies) broken up into three trilogies; Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back, and Revenge of the Jedai are the middle three movies, or the second trilogy. The first trilogy is suppose to be about the fall of the original republic, the second about the fight of the republics remnant (the rebels) against the empire, and the third about the rebirth of the republic (or something along those lines; if I'm grossly wrong, I'm sure I'll hear about it). RotJ will tell the story of Han Solo recovering his mobility ('loosing his cool', so to speak?), Luke facing off with Darth Vader, etc. etc. Therefore, if Obi whatever is again corporeal, it's because he's regained his physical being, not because the movie takes place 'before' Star Wars. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 9-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #102 *** EOOH *** Date: Thursday, December 9, 1982 9:35PM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #102 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 10 Dec 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 102 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov's FANTASTIC VOYAGE, Simak's TIME AND AGAIN Misc - WSFS rules Radio - A Canticle for Leibowitz in DC T.V. - Star Trek City on the Edge of Forever & Ellison Movies - Mad Max, SW/TESB/ROTJ light saber & mechanical hand & cave scene ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 9 Dec 1982 13:10:40-EST From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX Subject: re FANTASTIC VOYAGE Yes, Asimov makes a great noise in his autobiography about how he accounted for some details they ignored in the movie. However, my recollection is that he used the same injection procedure (first shrinkage, drop 1" sub in giant syringe full of saline, second shrinkage, now normal-sized syringe used) which leaves Benes trying to hold in his own volume or more of saline after the hour is up. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Dec 1982 13:08:12-EST From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX Subject: TIME AND AGAIN is by Clifford Simak. Similar ideas turn up in his TIME IS THE SIMPLEST THING. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Dec 1982 13:21:37-EST From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX Subject: WSFS rules Whoops! Slight misrecollection of the bylaws there: a concom cannot be bound to \spend/ \money/ by any rules adopted after it was selected (although business meetings have in the past asked standing concoms to contribute to WSFS-related costs and the concoms have generally assented). Constellation could not be affected by the Hugo-spreading rule, however, since only the business meeting could apply it and the rules took effect after the business meeting adjourned. (Aren't fannish politics exciting?!?). ------------------------------ Date: 9 Dec 1982 13:28:01-EST From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX Subject: more on WSFS For various reasons I need to get some information quickly from those of you who think you are likely to get to Constellation (the 1983 World SF Convention, held in Baltimore over Labor Day weekend 1983). If you're in this group, please mail to me by next Wednesday the following info: 1. Would you be interested in a 1-2 hour harbor cruise, either Saturday or Sunday afternoon, hopefully with a number of authors on board (so you could meet them in a less-crowded setting---obviously this is dependent on the authors but try to generalize since you might not know until boarding who was there). 2. If yes, would you be willing to pay $1 to cover cruise costs? $2? Mail answers to CJH@CCA-UNIX (usenet: ...decvax!cca!csin!cjh) ------------------------------ Date: 9 Dec 1982 1936-EST From: Bob Krovetz Subject: A Canticle for Leibowitz in DC ACfL is a 15 part series which will be played on WAMU (88.5) saturdays from 7:30 to 8:00 P.M. starting Jan 1. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Dec 82 13:19:00-PST (Wed) From: decvax!microsof!fluke!vax1.witters at Ucb-C70 Subject: Mad Max in Seattle The Seattle Film Society will be showing "Mad Max", the predecessor to "The Road Warrior" on Friday Dec. 10, 1982 at 7:00, 9:00, and 11:00 PM at the Seattle Concert Theater. I don't know what the addmission charge is, or whether you must be a member of the Seattle Film Society to attend. I also don't know whether this is the origional Australian version, or the one that was dubbed into "American English" and shown only at drive in theaters. I tried calling their number (206-325-7632), but got a recording that didn't tell me much. John Witters ------------------------------ Date: 9 Dec 1982 1645-EST From: Stephen R Balzac Subject: City on the Edge of Forever and Ellison According to what I read a few years ago on Ellison's script, it was changed because it did not fit into the ST universe. For instance, it had at least one crew mutiny as a major plot device (the crew is sick of Kirk or something like that). While I am sure that there are those who will think this a good idea, it still doesn't fit ST [Ellison has published the original script somewhere (future plays collection?). I actually prefer the Star Trek script to his and think Roddenberry's changes produced a superior teleplay. This is about the only case I can think of where I preferred a doctored Ellison script to the original. --Stuart] ------------------------------ Date: 9 Dec 1982 19:53:59-EST From: David-J-Aronson-H at CMU-EE-AMPERE at CMU-10A Subject: Source of "We the People" quote Sorry, JHendler, I believe you are wrong about it being from the Declaration of Independence (that starts out "When in the course of human events..."). However, you are partially right in that the quote in question is not from the Constitution itself, but from the Preamble (which may or may not be considered a part of the Constitution). Dave Aronson dja@ee-ampere@cmu-cs-a ------------------------------ Date: 9 Dec 1982 1311-PST Subject: STWOK and inconsistancies From: Alan R. Katz In catching up on old messages, I came across a message about an inconsistancy in Star Trek II. The message stated that the date on the bottle of Ale said 2283, yet the start of the movie clearly says "In the 23rd century." I suprised no one caught this, but 2283 IS IN the 23rd Century, just as it is now 1982, but the 20th century! Alan ------------------------------ Date: 9 Dec 1982 1010-PST From: Richard M. King Subject: Luke's mechanical hand The Force is supposed to be a property of life. I wonder if the fact that Luke now has a mechanical hand will figure in RotJ? Dick ------------------------------ Date: 8 Dec 82 9:28:49-PST (Wed) From: npois!houxm!ihnp4!ihldt!ll1!otuxa!nwuxc!inuxc!pur-ee!uiucdcs!mcd From: aniel at Ucb-C70 Subject: tesb: cave scene failure? - (nf) #N:uiucdcs:12500008:000:306 uiucdcs!mcdaniel Dec 8 09:20:00 1982 What made Luke's performance in the cave a failure? (When he's running off to save Han &c, Yoda says something like "remember your failure in the cave".) Also, why didn't he need his weaponry? Tim McDaniel (. . . pur-ee!uiucdcs!mcdaniel) ------------------------------ Date: 9 Dec 82 1:22:42-PST (Thu) From: harpo!npoiv!alice!rabbit!ark at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: tesb: cave scene failure? - (nf) Gee, wasn't it in the cave where Luke lost his concentration to anger early on and everything came crashing down? ------------------------------ Date: 9 Dec 82 6:50:03-PST (Thu) From: harpo!seismo!rocheste!bukys at Ucb-C70 Subject: re: test: cave scene failure? Perhaps Luke was expected to let the Vader-image slash him the same way Obiwan let Vader participate in his dis-corporation. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Dec 82 22:16:28-EST (Thu) From: Charles Kennedy Subject: Re: Luke's light saber I just saw TESB again the other night and I noticed that when Luke fell through the disposal shute (or whatever it was) and landed on the antennas under the city, I could see something falling past him. That something could have been either his light saber, his hand, or both (maybe they were fused together??). By the way, I got a kick out of your story about the librarian and the recommendation of the book "Snowy". Cheers, Chuck Kennedy ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 10-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #103 *** EOOH *** Date: Friday, December 10, 1982 6:54PM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #103 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 11 Dec 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 103 Today's Topics: Books/Stories - Vinge True Names and Anderson's The Saturn Game, Wolfe's The Book of the New Sun, Varley's work and why are Titan/Wizard tiresome? Themes - Shrinking, reality alternation Misc - SF media, decompression, Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Net (part 1) T.V. - Star Trek ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10-Dec-82 15:24:21 PST (Friday) From: Pettit at PARC-MAXC Subject: True Names and The Saturn Game In regard to csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX's statement in V6#99, "I happen to think that 'True Names' was better than the winner, Anderson's 'The Saturn Game'; that may reflect my dislike of tSG's subject": What does csin!cjh see as "tSG's subject"? It seems to me that "True Names" and "The Saturn Game" had very nearly the SAME subject, to wit, an extension of the Fantasy Role Playing idea to where the fantasy world actually feels real to the player (or at least as real as a dream does to the dreamer). In True Names, the fantasy world was the way a human experienced direct neural IO linkage with a computer; in "The Saturn Game" it was the result of genetic and other enhancements to the imaginative capabilities of people sent on long space missions. Both stories played off the advantages of this enhanced experience against the dangers of being unable to respond properly to the real world while living in the fantasy one. This conflict was the major theme of "The Saturn Game"; it was a minor one in "True Names", whose main theme was the implications of machine/human symbiosis. I too preferred "True Names" to "The Saturn Game", though I liked them both a lot. My preference is partly because I'm a programmer (not an astronaut or geologist), and Vinge did a very good job of capturing/extrapolating the culture of the programmer. I think Vinge also did a better job than Anderson at capturing the flavor of the FRP culture, and he was even quite good at representing the police-officer mentality. The characterization in "The Saturn Game" was weaker. But my main objection to "The Saturn Game" was that I could never really suspend my disbelief in the notion that a fantasized ice castle setting would have more emotional pull than the actual experience of walking about on Saturn's moon, no matter how altered the imaginations of the explorers were. In "True Names", the programmers were seated in consoles, with almost all their sensory input coming from the computer (near the end, it becomes a sensory overload, in fact), so it is much easier to believe that the fantasy world could become real than when it is an entirely internal construct competing with the astounding and demanding real experience of exploring a beautiful and dangerous new world. Anderson probably won the Hugo not for the main theme of his work, but for the subplot of clever people in dire straits figuring out an ingenious way to rescue themselves. This plot has been a sure winner for SF short stories and novelettes ever since Asimov's first published story, "Marooned Off Vesta". In the same vein, I can recall a story about a couple "walking" a bubble-tent back to a moon base after a picnic in the nude, and getting a bad sunburn in the process. I don't remember the name or author. And one of Varley's stories with the clinging-mirror-spacesuits had a similar subplot ("Retrograde Summer", I think it was). How many others can you think of? -- Teri Pettit at Xerox OSD ------------------------------ Date: 9 Dec 82 22:11-PST From: mclure at SRI-UNIX Subject: Wolfe's The Book of the New Sun I have now twice read the first volume (THE SHADOW OF THE TORTURER) in a vain attempt to convince myself that it is the beginning of an earth-shaking effort or "the best SF I've read all year (Le Guin)". It would appear to be the beginning of just another quest story and having just finished LORD OF THE RINGS for the first time, I don't think I can handle yet another of these. Could someone out there who has read the entire tetralogy and admires it please explain what he/she thinks is so marvelous about it? Mike "the Monk" Urban, are you listening? I'll admit that Wolfe handles his language better than most SF authors I've read but the story itself seems extremely drawn out and the characters don't catch my fancy. Maybe it's just that I don't much care for sword and sorcery and quests. Stuart ------------------------------ Date: 10 Dec 1982 13:34-PST From: dietz%usc-cse@USC-ECL Subject: Shrinking Fritz Leiber's "The Swords of Lankhmar" has Fahfrd (or the Grey Mouser?) shrink down to rat size. The extra mass was shed at the time of shrinking, leaving a pool of pinkish tissue. When the effect wore off the hero absorbed mass from surrounding objects, with amusing consequences. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Dec 1982 1:52:07 CST (Friday) From: Mike Meyer Subject: short dump ~= FtG claimed that "SF is the last refuge of the MCP" or some such (oh, for a real mailer...). I remember seeing somewhere tht SF had the HIGHEST imply that you would have trouble as a writer. Just look at Alice Sheldon in all her avatars. Finally, the Grand Master himself tends to make his female characters much more intelligent/competent/etc. than his male characters I have lots to say about the womens movement & ERA, but this isn't the place. FtG (whoever s/he is) can contact me personally if she wants to hear it. =~ Paul Fuqua mentioned changing reality via massed believe. He failed to mention a GOOD story that uses this idea, and a mediocre novel/movie. The story is the Amber series by Zelazny, wherein the inhabits of the `base reality,' Amber, can move at will from one `reality,' or shadow, by moving, and thinking about what the want the universe to be like. Good stuff - when Good stuff - but I like reality-warping stories (probably has something to do with having a warped view or reality...) The mediocre novel is `The Lathe of Heaven,' by LeGuin. The writing is up to LeGuin's usuall standard, but the solution is obvious from very early in the thing. Almost forgot - Laumer has something using a concept similar to the Amber trick in `The World Shuffler,' and it's sequel, `The Time Bender.' This is Laumer with his tongue in his cheek, and I enjoyed it as much as I do the Retief stories. Since short stories have been introduced in the time travel topic, I have to mention the classics: `All You Zombies' has the most convoluted plot knot of anything I have ever read. For example, our hero is her own mother and father, and he inroduced himself to herself. `By His Bootstraps' is another tale wherein the protagonist meets himself coming, going, and trying to stop himself from going. This is also mind-warping stuff. Both by Heinlein (The Grand Master). Subject: Science Fiction Media I noticed something in a non-big-three media that might be of interest. Namely, the discussion in SFL shows an interesting warp. Movies and TV both have a high concentration of discussion in a small area. Movies tends to stick be almost entirley Dr. Who/Star Trek, with some comments on other things. [Of course, there's no mention of my favorite - Lost In Space - the best sitcom of the bunch.] Books, on the other hand, tend to wander all over the landscape. Occasionally, some particular topic will generate a lot of verbiage, but not to the degree that SW dominates movies. Subject: Time and Again Time and Again was not by the actor Albert Finney, it was by the author Jack Finney who also wrote the Invasion of the Body Snatchers. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Dec 82 22:25-PST From: mclure at SRI-UNIX Subject: why I don't like Varley's TITAN/WIZARD In reply to duntemann.wbsd@parc-maxc's comments: I don't see anything specifically bad about Varley's TITAN and WIZARD, but that's just the problem. Neither is there anything spectacular or innovative. Many times have we encountered the "living world" theme within SF and here it is again with a tiresome revenge plot thrown in for good measure, not to mention an unrealistic and boring earth mother and the usual cast of zany alien creatures populating the landscape in Gaea. When you compare these two books with his shorts and previous novel, the former pale in comparison. In the latter there's stuff that just hadn't been done before to any great degree in SF: casting off of stereotypical sex roles (the real purposes behind the frequent sex-changes his characters undergo), disorienting non-Earth environments forced into an Earth-like mode and yet still retaining a hint of non-familiarity, odd combinations of symbiont and human bodies, extremely sensitive attention to characterizations even in the face of clearly different moral and social values, frequent use of realistic first-person female viewpoints, and so forth. Varley's shorts and first novel evoke a sort of pastoral simplicity within an enormously complex technological framework. For example, I was half-way through my first Varley story a couple years ago before I realized that I wasn't even on Earth! The depressive atmosphere of immensely superior and indifferent Invaders having ousted Man from Earth somehow appeals to me. It means that Man must put up with harsh environments and yet try to recreate something resembling his imagined home world. In essence, it is the ultimate challenge to his ability of adapting to different environments, one which Varley clearly sees as being not beyond the capability of Man. Stuart ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 11 December 1982 16:58-EST From: MERMAN.STEVER at MIT-MC Subject: "We the people..." I don't believe that this argument is actually going on. If only from Saturday morning cartoons (remember those? About the bill whose greatest ambition is to become a law? Conjunction junction? There was one called "We the people..."), I would think everyone would recognize: "We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, do ordain and establish this constitution..." If the quote is to be believed, it's from the preamble of the Constitution of the United States. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Dec 82 0:54:07-PST (Thu) From: decvax!microsof!jerryd at Ucb-C70 Subject: Stardates in ST I recently spent some time wading through some old junk to dig out some material I ordered in my (much) younger days from Star Trek Enterprises (or was it Lincoln Enterprises?). Having read all of the recent discussion about stardates on the net, I decided to look them up in my copy of "The Star Trek Guide", Third Revision, dated April 17, 1967. (I remember ordering it as "The Star Trek Writer's Guide," but that's not what it says on the cover.) The Guide says that stardates were invented to avoid having to mention ST's century, thus averting arguments about the state of technology in that century. Stardates were supposed to maintain a constant progression in one story, with each decimal point representing one tenth (surprise!) of a day. It further says that the writer didn't have to worry about progression with other scripts, and that "Stardates are a mathematical formula which varies depending on location in the galaxy, velocity of travel, and other factors, [and] can vary widely from episode to episode." I hope this settles discussion on the subject; however, I do remember that one of the ST books ("World of Star Trek", I think) mentions that the first stories were filmed with ascending stardates, but when they weren't broadcast in filming order, the above double-talk was invented. ------------------------------ From: Woods.pa @ PARC-MAXC Date: 10-Dec-82 1:14:48 PST Subject: Star Trek & Light Sabers A few remarks on recent digests... I'm glad somebody else thought to ask about Luke's light saber. Those two questions (did he lose his when he lost his hand, and where did Vader get his if Luke's came from his father?) have been bothering me ever since TESB first came out. (Of course, the first question won't bother me as long as Luke manages without it from now on -- hah! -- and the second won't bother me if Darth turns out not to be Luke's father -- hah!) Note that we don't actually see Luke with a saber in the closing minutes of TESB; if he shows up with one in ROTJ, there'd better be an explanation along with it! (Don't you love empty threats?) Nice of Nathan to remember the Star Trek ratings from Stevenson Hall; I was part of the "Bridge Crew" that concocted them, and I think I even made the ratings (and accompanying plot synopses) available to SFL a year or so ago. There were in fact two 5-star (max rating) shows, one being Tribbles and the other being A Piece of the Action. I think this tells us something, e.g., it's easier to do good comedy than good drama. The basic plot of APotA was so far-fetched that the show would have been considered lousy if done seriously, but as a comedy it fits right in, and all the essential aspects of the plot are at least given an attempt at justification. Tribbles doesn't even require that much suspension of disbelief; the plot holds together and all the different subplots and running gags blend with each other very well. The City on the Edge of Forever, which many people have pointed to as the best Trek ever, got "only" 4 1/2 stars on our 0-5 scale. We all agree that it's an excellent show, but there's a basic flaw in the plot, and in an essential element at that. [SPOILER??] The Guardian is displaying Earth history, and Spock starts recording it at some point. Then McCoy goes through the portal, and history is changed, and the "display" stops. They get the Guardian to replay it, and Kirk and Spock jump through. Later, they look at the tricorder record to compare "future" events on the two time-lines. But HOW do they manage to have a record of what the future is SUPPOSED to be, since McCoy mucked it up before the Guardian got that far? (It's also not clear how they got the recording of the changed future, since they jumped through before getting that far, but one can argue that they made the recording and then jumped through on the third showing.) Also, less significantly, why couldn't they tell which recording was which? Then Spock would have known right away whether the "correct" future required that Edith die, as soon as he saw her obituary. There is a final objection, namely that it seems odd that the events displayed by the Guardian should include such details as Edith's obituary, but one can hand-wave that by noting that her death was an important "cusp" in history. -- Don. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Dec 82 19:57:56-PST (Wed) From: decvax!cwruecmp!honton at Ucb-C70 Subject: Darth Vader = Good Guy Its good to see that many people are taking my suggestion that Darth is a good guy seriously. However, I no longer believe in the clone theory. There are two good reasons why it is colon (short for colonial.): First, the classic theme of independent, hardworking good guys being threatened by the heavy evil central government makes good watching. Second, the two Star Wars films we have seen before, ( and previous films by Lucas,) are fantasy. Not hard Science Fiction, but Fantasy. Clones do not make good fantasy. How do you explain this stuff to the general population? Still, the turn around of Darth to a good guy, now that's fantasy! chas (..!decvax!cwruecmp!honton) ------------------------------ Date: 9 Dec 82 17:32:50-PST (Thu) From: harpo!eagle!mhtsa!alice!wookie at Ucb-C70 Subject: Star Wars clone wars While I think it is interesting that everone is taking the ancient wars as the colon (short for colonial) wars I just thought I would point out that in the book they are clearly referred to as the "clone wars". I think therefore we had better confine our extrapolations to that fact. Keith Bauer Bell Labs Murray Hill White Tiger Racing ------------------------------ Date: 10 Dec 1982 at 1051-PST Subject: Star Wars: Clones and such From: chesley.tsca at SRI-TSC (1) Clones as we know them today (of course, anything is possible in SF) don't spring up full-grown. There is roughly a generation of age between a person and his clone. Luke could be a clone. (2) We have a lot of father figures in SW, but a definite lack of mothers. Who was Luke's mother? How did she die? Did she? Who was the Princess's mother? Ditto? And, of course, are there any mothers at all? (3) Are Jedi celibate? Magicians and priests often are. Is this why they needed clones? Is this why Luke and the Princess will never get together? (Side note: Han more follows the warrior model than the magician model, and warriors are most definitely not celibate.) (4) "The Clone Wars" is a very neutral phrase. Was the war against clones? For them? With them? Started by them? Etc.? (5) Maybe Han is the only non-clone in the known Universe, which is why he's "Solo"... :-) --Harry... ------------------------------ Date: 10 Dec 82 18:03:26-PST (Fri) From: hplabs!hp-pcd!harold (Harold Noyes) at Ucb-C70 Subject: LUKE'S *FAILURE* - (nf) As a Star Wars fan, here's my two cents worth-- When Luke went into the cave for his TEST, the being he was fighting was *NOT* Darth Vader. Remember that when he had defeated the being, the face mask dissolved, revealing an image of *LUKE SKYWALKER*! Why is this significant? Is it significant? Both are good questions. Two items which I would like to throw out for consideration: First, could Luke's failure in the cave have been his attempt to destroy his *dark* half rather than subdue it? The idea that the evil side of a person is vital to his ability to be courageous, strong-willed, and a leader has been presented many times in sci-fi (remember Capt. Kirk when he was divided into good and bad 'clones' by the transporter?). This includes the idea that the reason that Luke did not need his weapons while in the cave was because the conflict between the good and bad is an internal struggle. It is person subjugating one side by practising and perfecting the other. It is fought within the confines of the 'soul'. The second item for consideration...... How did Luke's Dark Side get in there? Is that cave the source of all evil in the Universe? And, as the Master Jedi, is Yoda the only being who can keep those forces in check. All of the above are thoughts for your consideration and not necessarily the personal beliefs of the author, disclaimer, disclaimer, etc., etc. **NO FLAMES PLEASE** Forever Yours in the Force, Harold ------------------------------ Date: 10 Dec 82 13:59:05-PST (Fri) From: decvax!cwruecmp!ccc at Ucb-C70 Subject: Clone Wars in SW/ANH and SW/TESB Lately there has been a lot of discussion about whether it is "clone wars" or "colon wars". In both the book and the @i(official) script (as published in The Art of Star Wars), the spelling is "clone". To me this would tend to indicate that that's how Lucas intended it. Clayton Elwell {usenet}!decvax!cwruecmp!ccc ------------------------------ Date: 10 Dec 82 18:09:16-PST (Fri) From: decvax!genradbo!wjh12!mjl at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: Darth Vader = Good Guy I'm afraid I still have one very good reason to believe it's "Clone Wars" instead of the increasingly popular "Colon Wars". In the original novelization of Star Wars, the term "Clone Wars" is used quite frequently. Yes, I know novelizations are generally completely different from the films on which they are based, and this one is no exception. But this one was written by George Lucas himself. Sorry, all you Colon fans... Matt Landau ...mhuxi!wjh12!mjl ...linus!wjh12!mjl ...genradbolton!wjh12!mjl ------------------------------ Date: 10 Dec 82 23:54:56-PST (Fri) From: decvax!genradbo!wjh12!clp at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: Darth Vader = Good Guy Come on everyone... didn't Lucas say "...remember the CLONE wars..." in that interview?!? This is a decidable debate... Charles Perkins ...mhuxi!wjh12!clp ------------------------------ Date: 11 Dec 1982 (Saturday) 1732-EDT From: SPEAR at Wharton-10 (Daniel Spear) Subject: Clones of Luke's father The whole suggestion that Darth Vader and the senior Skywalker were clones arose from an attempt to take seemingly contradictory statements by Darth Vader and OB1 and make them consistent. I saw the movies again last night, and don't believe that it is possible. Darth says, when Luke says, "He (OB1) told me you killed him (Luke's dad)", "No. I am your father..." He specifically says that what OB1 says is incorrect (or what Luke says OB1 says, which is pretty accurate (OB1 says, "A young Jedi, Darth Vader, ... betrayed and killed your father.")). Therefore, one of them must be lying. I personally think it was OB1. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 10 Dec 1982 09:02:30-PST From: RHEA::HARDY::GLASSER%Shasta at SU-Score Subject: part 2 I stole the following from the USENET net.jokes newsgroup. I thought that SFL should see it. I hope that the author does not mind. Daniel Glasser [USENET address ...!decvax!sultan!dag no reliable ARPA address.] From: decvax!sultan!decvax!genradbo!grkermit!markm Newsgroups: net.jokes Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net Episode 2 - The Flamers (The Infinity's scanners are showing the Flamer's ships approaching fast. Arnold Lint and Rod Perfect are franticly scurrying about. Xaphod is trying to figure out how to fly the node, and Gillian is fixing her makeup. Martin the android is off on a corner moping about how he's too young to die.) Xaphod: This is the node Infinity, we are on a peaceful, although a bit mercenary, mission. Hold your fire. (The commander of the Flamer's fleet appears on the screen. He appears to be a normal human, except for a small silver halo stapled to his head.) Flamer: I am Adolf Riteyus, commander of the Flaming Queen. You have violated Flaming space and must be blasted. You will be given a fair and drawn out hearing before you are found guilty. Rod: We didn't know this was Flaming space! Adolf: Ignorance is no excuse. Do you think that just because you don't know something you shouldn't be responsible for it? Why, if we didn't go around blasting people who thought they were innocent, there'd be no order. The whole power structure of the Net is based on the inalienable right to flame. He who flames the loudest and strongest will prevail, for he will have maintained purity of essence by not compromising his principles. It doesn't matter what one flames about, as long as one comes out a winner. Winning the argument for mandatory retroactive birth control is one of our greatest victories. We Flamers always win because we never give up. No, things are either our way or they're WRONG. [The "Hitch Hikers Guide to the Net" lists the Flamers as one of the most argumentative races in the Net. History shows that the Flamers went to war over the right to keep and bear tongue depressors. They also had a violent and bloody discussion over the morality of Odor Eaters. The only time the Flamers can be easily beaten in combat is on Sunday mornings when they all watch evangelist shows, or during Ronco "Mr. Microphone" commercials (their symbol of worship).] Gillian: What should we do? Xaphod: How 'bout evasive actions? Marvin: It won't help. Rod: Oh shut up! Rod: OK, evasive action! Adolf: Where do you come from? Xaphod: Not from around here. Adolf: Where are you headed? Rod: Left. Gillian: That's telling him? Adolf: What is your favorite color? Arnold Lint: My what? Adolf: Your favorite color! Rod: White! Adolf: What is the maximum warp speed of a ladened Swaldrel? Xaphod: Denebian or Rigelian? Adolf: I don't know that . . . all right, enough evading, if you don't surrender in the next five seconds I'll blast you right out of existance. Rod: Well, now what. Adolf: Five! Arnold Lint: What's this button do? Adolf: Four! Xaphod: That's the Illogical Drive. It propels the node on power from hard drugs and acid rock. It's kind of dangerous though. Adolf: Three! Arnold Lint: Should we try it? Adolf: Two! Rod: Well, lets not . . . Four! Adolf: Four! Arnold Lint: So this is it, we're all going to die. Adolf: Three! Martin: I warned you about this trip. Adolf: Two! Xaphod: All right, all right, engage the Illogical Drive! Adolf: One! (Arnold Lint engages the Illogical drive. Images of the movie "Easy Rider" float across the view port. "In-a-gadda-da-vida" starts coming across the radio. The 12" CRT on Xaphod's shoulder starts scrolling "Wow man, what a trip!". The scanners show that the Flamers couldn't handle the sudden flood of sensory excitation and burst their brains. This only made their reactions a bit slower though as the Flamer's brain is remarkably small. The Infinity, charged up with Liquid Super Duetrillium, was able to make warp speed and turn the corner before the Highway patrol picked them up on radar. This was fortunate for it meant that they wouldn't be caught by Spiny Norman, the 45 foot blue hedgehog that had been following them.) Gillian: We made it. Rod: Yah, where are we Martin. Martin: We're way out man. Xaphod: Oh, he's useless now - it'll take a while before he comes down. Arnold Lint: At least he isn't so gloOmy. Martin: Nooo body knows, the trouble I've see . . . have any of you ever contemplated the death of a grain of salt? [The "Hitch Hikers Guide to the Net" points out that the life and death of a grain of salt can have amazing importance in the course of life on the Net. On particular grain of salt (named Nigel) was responsible for the overthrow of an entire government. Nigel gave his . <- Nigel life by falling into the barrel of a shotgun that was aimed that the planets dictator. Thanks to lousy marksmanship on the part of the rebels, only Nigel was able to hit the dictator. The rest of the buck shot killed the dictator's pet salmon, Eric. Nigel, however, penetrated the dictators eye and eventually killed him 8 months later just before a firing squad cut the dictator in two.] Rod: Shut Up! Xaphod: Well, lets get back on course. Arnold Lint: What are those? (The scanners now show a dozen ships shaped like the number one heading toward the Infinity.) Xaphod: Those are Singularan ships. They're worse than flamers! Rod: Oh yeah, they're worse than a visit from an insurance salesman. Gillian:They're normally mild mannered computer scientists. But when they get on the Net, they become endowed with a superhuman ability to talk about incredibly personal things, things they couldn't otherwise discuss. Arnold Lint: Sounds awful. Martin: That's what I keep telling you. Rod: Shut up! Xaphod: If we don't get out of here fast, we'll end up debating which finger a divorced person should wear his or her ring on when going to homosexual orgies - or worse, have to go to a Pot Luck Dinner where all that the people do is talk. ******************** End Of Part 2 ******************** Will the crew of the infinity avoid the clutches of the Singularans? Or will they end up exchanging recipes for onion dip. For the answers to these and several other amazingly unimportant questions . . . Tune in next time . . . same Net-time . . . same Net-channel. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 14-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #105 *** EOOH *** Date: Tuesday, December 14, 1982 11:14PM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #105 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 15 Dec 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 105 Today's Topics: Books - Cherryh's WAVE WITHOUT A SHORE, Robinson's STARDANCE Adams' LIFE, THE UNIVERSE, AND EVERYTHING T.V. - Star Trek The City on the Edge of Forever Movies - Fantastic Voyage, Star Trek, SW/TESB/ROTJ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thursday, 9 Dec 1982 23:12-PST Subject: reality as perception From: Tim Mann Another book about reality as the perception of the observer is "Wave Without a Shore," by C. J. Cherryh, which I believe was mentioned here some months ago. --Tim Mann ------------------------------ Date: 10 Dec 1982 10:56 PST From: GMeredith.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #100 Regarding Stewart Rubenstein's comment on "Stardance". I thought the novel was excellent, with real insight as to the feelings and so-forth of characters involved in such a situation. However, I thought the whole thing became very contrived, pat and simple from the point where the aliens make their entrance. Just too many coincidences for good story--too much like the sort of happen-stance I gripe about in Heinlein in his recent senile stages. The last was a real let-down as I thought the rest of the novel was among the best I have ever read. I am a Robinson addict as well, and would expect something more consistent. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Dec 82 16:25:42-PST (Fri) From: decvax!utzoo!watmath!bstempleton at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: Fantastic Voyage Well, one thing that Fantastic Voyage never dealt with was that they injected a shrunken 60 gallon drum of water into the guy with the double shrunk submarine. I'm not sure what would happen, but when that water expanded, boy would he have to go to the bathroom something fierce! Brad |-) ------------------------------ Date: 10 Dec 1982 11:05:28-EST From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX Subject: re THE CITY ON THE EDGE OF FOREVER Ellison's original script for this can be found in SIX SCIENCE FICTION PLAYS, one of the few worthwhile anthologies by Roger Elwood. It \is/ a good deal better than what finally came out; it may be too long (though I would think Ellison had enough experience by then that he wouldn't have made that mistake) and definitely would have run way over budget (e.g. a long valley full of huge talking statues). ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 11 December 1982 13:20-EST From: Vince Fuller Subject: STWOK and inconsistancies Date: Thursday, 9 December 1982 16:11-EST From: Alan R. Katz To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC Re: STWOK and inconsistancies In catching up on old messages, I came across a message about an inconsistancy in Star Trek II. The message stated that the date on the bottle of Ale said 2283, yet the start of the movie clearly says "In the 23rd century." I suprised no one caught this, but 2283 IS IN the 23rd Century, just as it is now 1982, but the 20th century! No problem here... It's just that if the ale is dated 2283, it can't be all that old if it is still the 23rd century. ------------------------------ Date: 10-Dec-82 15:58:20 PST (Friday) From: Pettit at PARC-MAXC Subject: Star Date 2283 To Alan Katz: it was clear from the original message that the submitter knew that 2283 is in the 23rd century. The message said something about Kirk's expression/comments being indicative of appreciating a RARE OLD bottle of Brandy (or some other kind of aged spirit), not a product aged less than 17 years. This can be explained either by the relativistic effects, by Romulan Brandy (or whatever it was) being fast-aging, or as an inconsequential bug in a movie which can't be expected to be totally consistent. It is NOT due to someone thinking that 2283 was in the 22nd century. --Teri ------------------------------ Date: 10 Dec 1982 0241-EST From: Hobbit Subject: Whew! I just slogged through about a month and a half of back SFL, so please bear with any out-of-date comments. The following is very random: I was surprised to notice, back in the big SF rock discussion, that no one mentioned Judas Priest. Okay, so some of us *don't* listen to high-decibel heavy metal all the time. Anyhow, some of their titles include ''Invader'', something about attacking aliens; ''Metal Gods'', about a time when machines run everything including the human race, and ''Solar Angels''. I could probably dig up more if I pawed through my collection at home. ~=''The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi''? *Which* Skywalker? Okay, so here's another idea: Life was often boring on Luke's home planet, so the inhabitants might have sought out each other for entertainment. A couple of days before the Empire shows up, Luke could have been at a helluva party. So the ''Other'' may indeed be *his* son?? The Force seems to have some hereditary aspects..... I submit that the @= symbol, besides indicating nuclear topics, could indicate a very *large* candle, or megaflame. Gee, if Lucasflicks got their vax on some network or other, think what would we would see on SFL. ''From: spielberg.dagobah@udel-relay''? _H* ------------------------------ Date: 10 Dec 1982 01:32:51-EST From: Ed-Tecot-H at CMU-EE-AMPERE at CMU-10A Subject: SW : Rampid Speculation 1) Assuming that every Jedi has a light sabre, all Darth Vader would have to do was to kill one in order to replace the one he lost to his good side 2) The names in SW seem to be a bit symbolic: Sky Walker Solo Darth Vader (Dark Father?) Maybe some of the others can be interpreted also: Princess Leia Boba Fett Tarkin Also--does Jedi translate? 3) Not only does SW cross with Alice in Wonderland, but also consider C.S. Lewis's "Chronicles of Narnia". The "other" could be the Lion, with Luke, Han, Luke, and Chewie comprising the party of four. -emt ------------------------------ Date: 8 Dec 82 14:21:08-PST (Wed) From: teklabs!tektronix!rich at Ucb-C70 Subject: Vader death count Here's a question for you SW/SW-TESB/ROTJ fans... how many people in either of the first two movies did Darth Vader actually kill by his own hand? Recall that it was Tarken, not Vader who wasted the planet. I recall only seeing him choke the commander of Leia's ship plus laser blasting a couple x-wings in the trench of Death Star, not to mention alleviating Obi-wan of his material body. Did we see him kill anyone in TESB? Couple of his own commanders? Maybe he isn't as bad as we think? Hell, after all, Luke killed *everybody* in the battle station (death star) by *his own hand*, so he really isn't as good as we want him to be. ------------------------------ Date: 10-Dec-82 00:11-PST From: DAUL at OFFICE Subject: RotJ RFI I have a request for information. Does anyone know roughly when they (the un-specific "they") will start selling tickets for the first day's showing of RotJ? I realize that the readership is from all over the country, but I just want general information (if anyone knew about the SF bay area in particular I would be mighty beholden!) Thanks, --Bi<<< ------------------------------ Date: 9 Dec 82 8:51:12-PST (Thu) From: harpo!seismo!rocheste!heliotis at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: No, there is another. I disagree with some of Alexis Layton's opinions. (1) When Luke decided to jump off the ... thing, I think he felt that Vader was getting the best of him, and if he didn't get away from that guy soon, he would be sucked into the dark side of the force; if he had regained his composure, perhaps he would not have had to jump (althought perhaps Vader would have killed him). Also, I think that Luke often cried out Ben's name to keep from thinking about "Poppa Darth", and again, being sucked into the dark side . (Oops! I should have said "(2)" there!) Jim@Ra-cha-cha ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 10 Dec 1982 09:50-PST Subject: More Jedi Stuff From: urban at RAND-UNIX I recently attended the LucasFilms RotJ dog-and-pony show at LosCon, which was by all accounts nearly identical to the presentation at ChiCon (which I managed to miss). Some of the stuff hasn't been mentioned in SFL and might affect people's speculations. The studio has been really good about NOT generating serious spoilers, though. There is at least one other planetfall besides Tatooine and Dagobah, which is the moon of Endor (a very Tolkien name!); this was shot in the redwood country of northern California. Luke is seen (dressed in black) fighting Darth Vader in an as-yet- unenhanced light-sabre duel. "Where did Luke get his light-sabre?" "He makes it". Luke is seen in an elevator with Darth Vader. The elevator is flanked by Royal Shakespeare Company actors in red robes (very striking against the usual imperial black-and-white sets). We are told that these are the Emperor's guards. "Do we see the Emperor in this film?" "Yes." There are indeed new characters in this film, including Admiral Ackbar (available as a bonus from Kenner Toys just like Boba Fett was "pre-released" as a toy before Empire came out). One of these is a woman, named (spelling wrong?) Mom Montha. To show you how the fan mind works, there was a Mom Montha in the ChiCon Masquerade. That's FAST work! "Do we find out who the 'other' is?" "Yes." (strongly implies that "another" is indeed a 'who' and not a 'what'). At Westercon, the following non-answer was given: "Is Darth Vader Luke's father?" "At LucasFilms, we almost always tell the truth." At every presentation, the LucasFilms rep was VERY careful to point out that Obi-Wan will look translucent in the finished film, regardless of how the principal photography looks. "He's still dead, or in heaven or wherever Jedi go when they die". DISCLAIMER: All these quotes are from memory. Mike ------------------------------ Date: 10 Dec 1982 2303-EST From: Stephen R Balzac Subject: Light Sabers and caves The object falling past Luke was indeed his hand still holding the light saber (at least so far as I remember). Since the force is a property of all things, not just life, I don't think Luke's mechanical hand will have any effect. As for the cave, I suspect that Luke was supposed to go in there unarmed, and defeat the apparitions that came against him through the use of his own inner strength, not by gross physical means. Thus, his use of a light-saber would indicate a failure on his part because it would show that he lacks confidence in his own inner power. Remember, the cave seems to show each person his own secret fears, which can only be beaten by one's own strength of will, not by outside means. As Salvor Hardin once said, "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." Certainly, the Jedi Knights seem to feel the same way. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Dec 82 11:47:44-PST (Fri) From: harpo!floyd!vax135!ariel!orion!lime!we13!otuxa!nwuxc!inuxc!inuxd From: !arlan at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: Vader death count Looks like the Vader/Tarkin partnership is only slightly ahead in the mass- murder standings, with Mao Tse-Tung socialism next, then Stalin/socialism, followed by Nazi/Socialism, then Alfred Nobel... arlan andrews, abi/btl,indy ------------------------------ Date: 10 Dec 82 12:50:23-PST (Fri) From: decvax!utzoo!laura at Ucb-C70 Subject: Leia as the other? I never liked the pretentious, vain, haughty princess who seems to toss her brain out the window whenever the going gets tough. I dont care how loyal to the cause and brave she is --- i think that she is also obnoxious. Granted, Luke and Han can act like jerks at times, but at least they appear to be thinking and trying things -- not complaining, criticising and acting like a piece of delicate dresden china. Leia the other?? Oh i hope not! My money is on Chewbacca... Laura Creighton decvax!utzoo!laura (after all, what's a little inter-species prejudice compared with rank xenophobia? How come all the big shots are human?) ------------------------------ Date: 12 Dec 82 3:48-PST From: mclure at SRI-UNIX Subject: Adams book n559 0315 12 Dec 82 BC-ADAMS-12-12 A BOOK REVIEW By Christina Robb (c) 1982 Boston Globe (Field News Service) LIFE, THE UNIVERSE AND EVERYTHING, by Douglas Adams. Harmony. 227 pp. $9.95. (Christina Robb is Boston Globe staff writer.) I hope somebody figures out a way to make movies out of Douglas Adams' three funny books about Arthur Dent loose in the unvierse. It will be hard, because an awful lot of what's funny is Adams' impeccable narrative sense of when to pun and when to run. There's a scene between a mattress and a robot in ''Life, the Universe and Everything,'' the third and, we are told, final novel about Adams' mild-mannered English hero and his mind-boggling adventures in space, time and restaurants. The mattress-robot scene, which is set in a swamp on the far side of a far galaxy, contains a digression about intergalactic dictionaries and the dialects of mattresses that would never make it into a screen adaption. The 30-year-old Englishman is such a word wizard that you've probably just got to read his books to get it all, but it sure is embarrassing to be riding along to work in the morning on the train or in your car pool, holding this little blue book in your lap and laughing your head off. At least in a movie theater everybody would be laughing with you instead of staring at you. Arthur Dent was minding his own business, trying to prevent a bulldozer from knocking his house down one morning in England's green and pleasant land sometime during the '80s, when a casual acquaintance informed him that the world was about to come to an end and he would help him off. Dent and this acquaintance, a humanoid mongrel from Betelgeuse called Ford Prefect, got off the planet, out of the century and into even more trouble through the entire universe and across a span of approximately 10 billion years. With their two-headed friend, Zaphod Beeblebrox, and his Earthling friend, Trillian, they laughed, cried, drank, ate and very often, startled themselves through the action of ''The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy'' and ''The Restaurant at the End of the Universe,'' the first two novels in this trilogy. Now, in ''Life, the Universe and Everything,'' they are joined by Slartibartfast, the Merlin of their company. With cameo appearances in swamps and elsewhere by Marvin, the paranoid robot, they manage to wrest the fate of the universe out of the hands of the gentle people of Krikkit, who believe in ''peace, justice, mortality, culture, sport, family life and the obliteration of all other life forms.'' The Krikkiters really are a lovely lot. They sing carefree, tuneful songs that could make a former Beatle even richer. Their only drawback is that they are obsessed with destroying the universe, which their foggy atmosphere prevented them from knowing was there for the first several million years of their development. Yes, there is an ironic echo of their dire obsession in the English Earthlings' ridiculous game of cricket, and the final act of Krikkit's plot against the universe is played out at Lord's, the London cricket ground. Adams is not just funny. I don't think it's an accident that while I was reading, I thought of the 1936 Olympics, and the South African Springboks trying to play rugby around the world in 1982 while they practice apartheid at home. But he is always funny, never preachy, very smart, and even if he never adds another Arthur Dent book to this universe, science fiction will never be the same. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 15-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #106 *** EOOH *** Date: Wednesday, December 15, 1982 7:58AM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #106 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 15 Dec 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 106 Today's Topics: Themes - shrinking, sex changes Books - some to avoid Records - Dr. Demento T.V. - Star Trek Movies - SW/TESB/ROTJ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 Dec 82 15:17:07 EST (Fri) From: Craig Stanfill Subject: Shrinking The list of shrinking people seems to be quite complete, except for the POOF gun in "Babes in Toyland." Not quite Science Fiction, but neither are many of the examples collected so far. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Dec 82 9:06:36-PST (Sat) From: decvax!yale-com!doehring at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: Shrinking It was the Gray Mouser that shrunk so that he could go into the rat city, not Fafhrd, who was off with his 'ghoul' friend at the time ( At least I think this is in Swords of Lankmar, it has been a while since I read that one, ask me about the others though...). the martian decvax!yale-comix!doehring ------------------------------ Date: 12 Dec 1982 0013-EST From: Joseph M. Newcomer Subject: Books to avoid I recently got Harry Harrison's "Planet of No Return" and Poul Anderson's "Starship" in the "Jim Baen presents..." paperback editions. A warning: if spelling errors bother you, avoid these two books. They are disasters. I doubt that they ever went through a proofreeding process at all. Besides, Planet Of No Return is not even a particularly good story; even if you don't mind spelling errors, you probably mind cardboard characters miming their way through cardboard situations. I'd call it a bad juvenile at best. joe ------------------------------ Date: 11 Dec 82 17:40:48-EST (Sat) From: J C Patilla Subject: Sex changes, Dr. Demento On the subject of sex changes in SF, back in my dim teen years, a magazine for the teenie-bopper set had a science-fiction writing contest and as I recall Asimov and maybe Ellison were two of the judges. They and several other authors provided theme elements which had to be woven into a decent story (there were several to chose from). One of the "must haves" was the idea of an alien being who was female on Monday and Thursday, male on Tuesday and Friday and either neutral gender or something totally weird the other days. The winning story had the alien visiting Earth as a student ambassodor living with a girl and her family and of couse the girl falls in love and gets all confused. It's an interesting notion, anyway. Does any one else recall this contest ? For Dr. Demento fans - the good Doctor has just released another album - "Demento's Mementos", available from Jem Records. It includes such someday classics as "Swedish Western", "My Wife Left Town with a Banana" and "I Get Weird". lightly, jcpatilla ------------------------------ Date: 11 Dec 82 08:24:39 EST (Sat) From: John R Bane Subject: Luke's mechanical hand I hereby predict that sometime during a climactic battle in RotJ, Darth Vader will take control of Luke's mechanical hand and attack him with it (shades of Dr. Strangelove!). ------------------------------ Date: 11 Dec 1982 1608-CST From: CS.TEMIN at UTEXAS-20 Subject: Luke's mechanical hand In reference to Dick King's message -- Yoda says there is force between all matter, animate and inanimate. Thus Luke is able to lift rocks and R2D2. So the new hand shouldn't interfere with the force (it may be stronger than the old hand, however....) -aaron ------------------------------ Date: 10 Dec 82 12:46:28 EST (Fri) From: Fred Blonder Subject: Re: RotJ From: CAIN@MIT-AI Why shouldn't Obi be corporeal? ROTJ chronolgically comes BEFORE Star Wars (or A New Hope, as you like), and thus has not yet been killed. Jonathan Levine Nope. ``A New Hope'' is episode #4, ``The Empire Strikes Back'' is episode #5 and ``Revenge of the Jedi'' is episode #6. The episodes released after #6 are to be #'s 1, 2, 3, 7, 8 then 9. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Dec 82 15:50:52-EST (Sat) From: the soapbox of Gene Spafford Subject: Luke's Failure in the Cave Well, if I apply a little deduction based on my knowledge of Zen and what I've seen in the movies, I'd say that Luke failed in a couple of ways. Failure #1 was his taking his weapons into the cave with him. A proper Jedi would be one who realizes that the power comes from within himself, and that mastery comes from using the Force (something associated with living matter) and not using some lifeless device. A number of the martial arts disdain the use of weapons for the same general reason. If one believes in the Force, one does not need a weapon for you *are* the weapon. Failure #2 was that Luke attacked first. Again, most martial arts (the ones that are firmly rooted in Zen and not Westernized sport versions) seem to stress defense rather than offense. (If you've had training in one of these, please don't engage me in a discussion of "offense as defense" and so on, I know about it.) Luke gave in to anger and to fear and attacked. In fact, the image of Darth was symbolically a manifestation of Luke's fears of the evil place. Failure #3 was that Luke failed to listen to Yoda. Yoda said that he would not need weapons, but Luke did not listen. When Yoda was reminding Luke of his "failure" in the cave, it was because Luke was once again ignoring Yoda's advice. I'm not sure how many philosophers are out there, but I'd like to suggest that the "Force" is more derived from the Tao than from Zen. It is something that one should follow, it guides from within and without. Perhaps even more significant, Luke is able to sense a "wrongness" in the Force, and Yoda talks of strong evil. No one senses "good," however. I would submit that straying from the Force (Way, Tao) is a definite wrong, but following the proper way simply results in a sort of null-state (natural state) that cannot be detected. That's why Luke doesn't detect Yoda as being the master teacher, and why Darth would not notice a true master if he was standing next to one (Bobba Fett?). That's another reason why Yoda says not to use the Force in anger --- someone using the Force can be detected while someone not using it is "invisible." Far better to let your opponents underestimate you and then let their attack be their own undoing. Think you that Vader or Luke really need light sabers? Vader has killed with the Force yet not touched his victims. Vader has also flung large objects about with the force. Luke has learned to move himself and objects, and Yoda can move an entire spaceship. Vader can kill with the dark side of the Force because he causes panic and fear in his victims and they feed the very force (Force) that kills them. From a philosophical point of view, I'd bet that the climactic battle does not have the Jedi/Luke/Other winning by their mastery of any weapon. Instead, Darth will defeat himself by making a mistake, or he and the emperor will destroy each other in a excessive display of bad vibes. Now for a quiz: 1) Is there deep meaning hidden in the story or are we creating profound interpretations from fluff? 2) Does anyone really doubt that Good triumphs, Evil gets its justly earned defeat, and Lucasfilms makes another bundle? 3) Darth Vader is really: a) Luke's father b) Luke's mother c) James Watt d) Judge Crater e) none of the above 4) The other hope is Bob Hope who is entertaining the rebel troops when his ship is captured by Darth. Bob's jokes just slay Darth. 5) Obi Wan got that first name growing up in Mayberry, RFD. (think about it) 6) Darth was going to lobotomize Han, but felt it was beneath him. Even the great Vader would not stupe Solo. Force sure, force sure, Gene ------------------------------ Date: 9 Dec 82 21:10:23-EST (Thu) From: J C Patilla Today's Washington Post revealed that Lucasfilms may be changing the name of the new movie to "The RETURN of the Jedi", since *somehow* they got the idea that nice Jedis don't seek revenge. (there's a Balrog in the woodpile, Goodgulf !) A correction: Leibowitz may well be Yiddish, but Springsteen is Dutch (and the Boss is Catholic, too). remain in light, jcpatilla ------------------------------ Date: 11 Dec 82 15:13:26-PST (Sat) From: decvax!duke!mcnc!cjp at Ucb-C70 Subject: Luke's failure / revenge I have a feeling something is being missed, in reference to Luke's failure in the cave. Although the apparition Luke saw might have been Luke's dark side, it might also have been a foreshadowing of a confrontation to come. Then, you ask, why does Luke see himself when the mask comes off Vader's head? Maybe because Vader really looks (or looked, at the time Vader maybe visited the same cave) a lot like Luke? A clone or father perhaps? This was my reaction anyway. My guess is that Luke also fails to become a Jedi, but by the same token becomes the instrument of the Jedi's revenge (remember, "Jedi" can be a *plural*). Charles J. Poirier (duke!mcnc!cjp) ------------------------------ Date: 9 Dec 82 8:01:31-PST (Thu) From: decvax!decwrl!sun!megatest!fortune!wdl1!jrb at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: Stardates and ROTJ Actually, RotJ will be episode 6 and will therefore take place after TESB. The next set of 3 will be episodes 1-3 and the final set will be episodes 7-9. John R Blaker ...!harpo!fortune!wdl1!jrb ------------------------------ Date: 12 Dec 1982 0326-PST From: Henry W. Miller Subject: SW time frames Booze-Swatz. ROTJ does NOT, repeat DOES NOT take place prior to ANH and TESB. It is the sequel to this second trilogy of trilogies. -HWM P.S. Has anybody heard the rumor that I have, which is that Lucas is ready to give up the rights to the serial after ROTJ is finished? ------------------------------ Date: 10 Dec 82 13:41:45-PST (Fri) From: menlo70!sytek!blk at Ucb-C70 Subject: How mysterious is the OTHER? Seems to me that no one has mentioned one point I think significant" Remember the scene - Two of the universe's wisest beings are discussing the future of their cause, and in five seconds the two thoroughly disagree! Whoever (or whatever - 'hope' may not be a person) this OTHER may be, there is enough ambiguity that this may be no hope at all! Surely this rules out Leia and Han ... and probably this mercenary, too. In fact, any living good sort with the power is an obvious hope; you don't need to be a Jedi Master to realize that! Because of all this, I say we have to look in shadows; either Darth or an unborn child. Only thing is, both of these possibilities make a sloppy story line. How about the hope being simply playing Darth against the Emperor? Too dull? -brian ------------------------------ Date: 10 Dec 82 8:16:16-PST (Fri) From: harpo!duke!unc!tim at Ucb-C70 Subject: No more others, please! I realize that a lot of you really love the Star Wars movies, and that your enthusiasm makes it difficult to avoid this incredibly prolonged and pointless speculation on the content of the third movie. Nonetheless, there are some of us who are more than willing to wait, and resent the group being monopolized by this sort of discussion. (My 'n' key is beginning to wear out.) Unless you have something really new to say, keep it to yourself, OK? Alternately, how about a net.starwars group that the rest of us can ignore without having to reject each individual article? Tim Maroney ------------------------------ Date: 11 Dec 82 11:48:59-PST (Sat) From: decvax!yale-com!cutler at Ucb-C70 Subject: Clones and others Clones in ROTJ? Perhaps, but not in as global or sophisticated a way as some people on this net have been suggesting. Afterall, that's a lot to explain in a two hour film that is supposed to be the finale of a three part series that has a lot of questions to answer already. Ben Cutler decvax!yale-comix!cutler ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 16-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #107 *** EOOH *** Date: Thursday, December 16, 1982 3:49AM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #107 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 16 Dec 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 107 Today's Topics: Books - Vinge's "True Names" & Anderson's "The Saturn Game", Varley's TITAN/WIZARD, Wolfe's "Book of the New Sun", J. Leiber's BEYOND REJECTION Themes - shrinking Humor - ARPANET/MILNET split T.V. - Star Trek tribbles Movies - SW/TESB/ROTJ Fandom - best fanzine Hugo for SF-LOVERS? Misc - intro to SF, music, SF attacked ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Dec 82 11:28:30 EST (Sun) From: Mark Weiser Subject: Re: True Names and The Saturn Game The vital difference between True Names and The Saturn Game is that the "computer generated world" in True Names WAS real. It had merely been translated into terms more easily dealt with by ground-dwelling hairless tool-using apes. The Saturn Game fantasy world was purely fantasy, and I also found it difficult to believe it could have more cognitive pull than the real surface of a new planet. At worst both should have been equally interesting, and human beings generally do not have excessive difficulty switching from one self-contained world to another, no matter how engaging. (E.g. the intense self-contained world of a football game to ballet or computer programming or rogue or ...) ------------------------------ Date: 14 Dec 1982 2048-EST From: Joseph M. Newcomer Subject: Bookstores I hope this will all go to some consolidated list somewhere... A set that I go to: Bakka, in Toronto. I hope it is still there; some years ago they had a good used-book collection, and a lot of British/Canadian SF not available in the U.S. Mile-High Comics, two branches, one in Boulder, CO, one in Denver Good used selection, good used magazine collections, the Boulder store has (or had, the last time I was there) an SF art gallery. I'm a bit annoyed with them, as they managed to reshelve a box of books I bought and had asked them to mail. I lost a lot of good books in that deal (some I'd been looking for for years. Sigh). The Other Change of Hobbit, Berkley, CA. Good used book collection, art work, plus a lot of the latest books. The Science Fiction Shop, in Greenwich Village, NYC. Not great, mostly new books, some used paperbacks, no used hardbacks, at least on my last trip a couple years ago. There is a really great shop in a shopping mall in the south of, or to the south of, San Diego. I found them in the Yellow Pages. Somewhere, I've got the card of the fellow who runs it. He's really into SF, I spent a couple pleasant afternoons there after a DECUS going thru an extensive used-book collection. Lots of new SF as well. I'll try to find the name, but if I don't, by all means try to get to it. Find it the same way I did...look in ye olde Yellow Pages. (The Yellow Pages technique is my standard method in an unfamiliar city... lots of SF bookstores list themselves as such). Moonstone BookCellars, Washington DC. No used books, lots of new books, about equally divided between SF an mystery. Owner is definitely into SF; I mostly go to chat with the people there. Haven't been there in a couple years. I also used the Yellow Pages hack in London; found a great bookshop way in the north of London (requires tube + bus) in a depressed-looking area, but lots of good used British SF hardbacks. Also, if in England try all the remainder-type bookstores, if you have time. I bought books worth about 100 pounds (list price) for about 15 pounds. If you are into really bizarre bookstores, there is (probably still is) a town full of bookstores in a little town called Hay-on-Wye in Wales. You end up taking a train from London to nearly the end of the line, then taking a bus to the end of /its/ line, and then walking about 1/2 mile. But a lot of SF detritus shows up in the bookstores there, including some galley proofs of SF books (with corrections marked by the author or proofreader). If you are into this sort of thing, it might be worth the trip, if you are in London and have a couple days to spare. We thought it was great fun, and spent two whole days poking in the "bookstores", which are more like warehouses of books. Sorted alphabetically by something. We did linear search, and found the oddest things next to each other, with no perceptible rhyme or reason. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Dec 82 16:01:35 EST (Mon) From: Rene Steiner Subject: tribbles, best fanzine, bookstores, etc. 1) Now, Kirk was getting all upset at the thought that Scotty beamed all those poor tribbles into the depths of space, and Scotty was indignant that Kirk would think him capable of something so cruel and inhumane. What makes them think the Klingons are going to treat the tribbles nicely? Methinks they got beamed into space anyway, if not actually tortured first. 2) I think only the last year of sf-lovers would have to be waded through for 'best fanzine' qualification. I'll vote for it! 3) A good bookstore in Washington, DC is Moonstones, somewhere near Dupont Circle, I think. 4) A friend of mine wrote this little snippet about entropy: Here's to entropy - things run downhill, and things fall apart and things always will. [I advise against any attempt to get a Hugo for sf-lovers. It can only do harm to broadcast ourselves. --Stuart] ------------------------------ Date: 13 Dec 1982 1426-PST From: KRIEGER Subject: misc. Another unstructured message. For those interested in the idea of sex change, et. al., a good selection to peruse might be BEYOND REJECTION by Lieber (Jr.), the son (?) of THE Lieber. I know little about the book except that I have looked at it quickly in the bookstore, and read an excerpt in THE MIND'S I. This stuff is pretty bizarre, and is not exactly my thing, really. Both Daniel Spear and Aaron Temin like the idea that Darth Vader was unleashed in the cave (the basic idea); it's possible, but let's not forget Darth's origin. Vader was horribly disfigured in some accident, which is why we wears that breath mask (we got a glimpse of him in TESB, as you'll recall). My point is this: I think that in the vision of Luke fighting his evil side, Darth Vader was used as the embodiment of that evil because the image was at hand, and it was something Luke could identify easily AS being evil. Does this make any sense? If Vader did have a similar test, the embodiment of HIS evil side could have been anything else. John ------------------------------ Date: 16 Dec 1982 0112-EST From: Nat Feldman Subject: Science Fiction Book Stores The address of Forbidden Planet-The Science Fiction and Comic Book Shop is 821 Broadway corner of 12th Street, New York City, 212-473-1576. They carry wide selection of current science fiction, fantasy and horror books, videotapes of all the Prisoner episodes, related albums (such as the HHGttG records), current and old comic books, magazines, toys, and games, all at retail prices. Across the street is the Strand Book Store that sells used general books at half price, and the Barnes & Noble book store and the Sale Annex are nearby at 5th Avenue and 18th Street that sell allbooks, including a fair science fiction collection at a minimum 10% discount. Star Magic is located at 743 Broadway, New York City, 212-228-7770, and is devoted to all manner of items with a space theme. Their books are mostly non-fiction, and their records include many of those mentioned under the space rock discussion. As for Luke's missing(?) light saber: I'm certain that someone in the rebellion can resupply Luke with this weapon if no other obvious source appears. I would find it har to believe that he retained the light saber. It may be unfortunate that he thus loses his father's legacy, but with his heavy breathing dad this may not be sucha monumental loss. At any rate I doubt the sabers are particularly rare, but most people are probably more comfortable using simple blasters. Alternatively,the Empire may have banned the weapon in its attempt to obliterate the Jedi. Nathaniel Feldman ------------------------------ Date: 12 Dec 82 20:19:22 EST (Sun) From: Chris Torek Subject: Proposed ARPANET/MILNET Split Do you suppose someone out there read Vernor Vinge's "True Names"? ------------------------------ Date: 13 Dec 1982 14:48 EST From: Denber.WBST at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: why I don't like Varley's TITAN/WIZARD "When you compare these two books with his shorts and previous novel, the former pale in comparison." Well I've heard of some strange comparisons, but aren't we getting a bit personal here? (Maybe it was too much bleach). - Michel [I think most people who have read everything Varley has published and are devoted Varley followers would agree that he is much better at short fiction than long fiction. But he's just beginning, so there's hope. --Stuart] ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 14 Dec 1982 10:04:59-PST From: RHEA::HARDY::GLASSER%Shasta at SU-Score Subject: Music (again), Intro to SF, Shrinking and other Misc. Reply to: {ARPA} Daniel Glasser at HARDY c/o {uucp} ...!decvax!sultan!dag Music: In a comment on SF related music in SFL V6 #99, John Francis listed the song "I'm the Urban Spaceman", by the Bonzo Dog Doo Dah Band {Yes, that is their name} as being SF. Though it has "Spaceman" in the title, it is not SF. However, the same group did do several SF songs, most notably "Beautiful Zela from Galaxy IV". This song was on the album "The Doughnut in Granny's Greenhous" (Sunset SLS.50210 - England). I was listening to "The Book of Invasions -- A Celtic Symphony" (DJM - DJLPA-10) by Horslips, and noted a bit of SF/Fantasy sounding lyrics on the cuts "Trouble" ('High on the mountain stands a boat, but are gods or real folk?') and "Sideways to the Sun" ('But you won't see us, we've grown sideways to the sun.') The album is, on the whole, very good listening, and is based on a twelfth century chronicle of the various pre-Christian colonisations of Ireland. Shrinking: I've read some stories which involve shrinking in some historical collections of SF of the thirties and fourties. The names of the compilations and the names and authors of the stories escape me, all of my SF collection is packed for moving. When I unpack, I'll name names, if nobody else has done so. The one that sticks in my mind (such as it is) concerns a scientist who discovers that atoms are solar systems and shrinks himself for a visit to a civilized planet which is one of the electrons (Taking the Bohr model too literally...). Another has a scientist growing a portion of a speck-of-dust planet to our scale and having its flora and fauna run amok on earth. Intro To SF: My first SF is unclear - The first I remember clearly was "Needle" by Hal Clement. The second was "Foundation and Empire" (Asimov) followed by the two other books of the former trilogy. Since then I've been an addict. Miscl: Didn't ANYBODY else out there like "TITAN" or "WIZARD" by Varley? I did not think it was that bad. Thanks for the disk space, Daniel Glasser ------------------------------ Date: 11 Dec 82 17:16:25-PST (Sat) From: harpo!utah-cs!utah-gr!thomas at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: Wolfe"s The Book of the New Sun I'm not sure I'd call it a "quest" story. It might be, in a sense, but Severian really doesn't know what he's looking for (if anything). Maybe he's searching for the meaning of life, I'm not sure. Among the things which make the series great for me are the language and the wonderful description of a future/past world. Wolfe manages to evoke wondefully clear images of the fantastic world in which Severian finds himself. You can feel the tremendous weight of the (mostly ignored, but everpresent) immense past history pressing down upon the people of his time. Everything has been done, forgotten, rediscovered, and forgetten again. The world is running down to an end (or, as he seems to hope, a new beginning). This background, developed only implicitly in places, provides a rich backdrop for the story. The storyline in the first book seems a little thin, but only because of the wealth of subplots it begins. There are no extraneous incidents recalled, no characters introduced as mere padding. It is a difficult book to read, the motives of the characters are frequently hidden or inexplicable and the description of some events are unexpectedly cut short. You have to read every word, or you risk missing something important. But, then, real life is often this way, also. The "Book of the New Sun" is Severian's memoirs, and, although he has perfect recall, he is still human, not omniscient, and can't know everything. I'm not sure I would classify it as "sword and sorcery", there is very little sorcery, and what "sorcery" there is is really forgotten science. Severian certainly carries a sword, but members of the Autarch's guard carry advanced energy weapons. I'm not sure it's classifiable as anything except "Speculative Fiction", and only that because there is no other category which can hold it. It is definitely not the escapism that so much SF is - if you are to understand the book on more than a superficial level, you must think about it, be willing to ferret out that which is not said directly. If you're not sure you will like it, borrow a copy from a friend, or the library. The first book is not the whole story, it was only published as a multi-volume set because the publishing industry will not put out a single book that long. (Except for Michener, of course.) By all means, though, give it another chance. =Spencer ------------------------------ Date: 15-Dec-82 0:06:21 PST (Wednesday) From: Newman.es at PARC-MAXC Subject: SF attacked in December Harper's magazine The December issue of Harper's magazine, now on your newsstand, contains a wide-ranging attack on science fiction. The article, entitled "Destination: Void", appears on page 64 of the magazine. Its author is Arnold Klein, identified as "a poet who used to write book reviews and animal features for the Soho Weekly News". While the article is far too long to reproduce here in full, I'll leave you a few inflammatory excerpts in hopes that you'll read the whole article and carry the argument into the pages of SF-LOVERS. Any typos are probably my own. /Ron Grownups are reluctant to take science fiction seriously, and with good reason: sci-fi is a hormonal activity, not a literary one. Its traditional concerns are all pubescent. Secondary sexual characteristics are everywhere, disguised. Aliens have tentacles. Telepathy allows you to have sex without the nasty inconvenience of touching. Womblike spaceships provide balanced meals. No one ever has to grow old--body parts are replaceable, like Job's daughters, and if you're lucky you can become a robot. As for the adult world, it's simply not there; political systems tend to be naively authoritarian (there are more lords in science fiction than on public television) and are often ruled by young boys on quests. The most popular sci-fi book in recent years, Frank Herbert's DUNE, sold millions of copies by combining all these themes: it ends with its adolescent hero conquering the universe while straddling a giant worm. . . . Worlds are destroyed in science fiction with rather disturbing nonchalance. Joe Haldeman, for example, has no compunction about the planet October, wiped out in passing, in his recent ALL MY SINS REMEMBERED, for a small breach of interplanetary peace; C. J. Cherryh's indigo skinned Hunter of Worlds, pursuing an obscure point of alien etiquette, is set to incinerate the planet Priamos out of pique; and in the immensely popular RINGWORLD Larry Niven starts an explosion in the galactic core in a way wholly collateral to the novel's main action, which deals with the discover of a giant doughnut-shaped world, and casually writes *finis* to the whole galaxy. Worlds that are allowed to face The Future in one piece are usually governed by benevolent authoritarian regimes, or some similarly simpleminded arrangement. Thus in his many tales Cordwainer Smith, member in good standing of the Science Fiction Hall of Fame (one of the many self-honoring mechanisms of sci-fi, others being the Hugo, Nebula, and Campbell awards), runs the universe with the Instrumentality, a gang of subtle lords and ladies who partly recall the Vatican and partly the State Department, where Smith was once employed. . . Less utopian setups are run more modestly, by emporers and god-emporers, and the out-and-out dystopias in sci-fi are usually set on a weary Earth governed by moms and dads who are either too strict or too lax. . . . The painstaking depictions of the ramscoop hyperdrives that enable some young idiot to visit the terra-formed moons of Jupiter are really glorificaitons of hypercapitalism, without, of course, the hurble-burble of ground rent and class struggle: there is no ATTACK OF THE SPACE LANDLORDS or CO-OP 2250 A.D.! on the sci-fi shelves. ("When the alien Zetas first undertook to provide heat and hot water to a rapidly cooling Earth, humanity was delighted...until the boilers broke, and the Zetas wouldn't fix them!" "It's buy or die in 2250 A.D., when one man owns all the living units on Earth...") . . . Sci-fi writers are the most pretentious idea mongers going, but their ideas are *stupid*. "Abstract design is all right--for wallpaper and lineoleum. But *art* is the process of evoking pity and terror," says the smartest man in STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND, and Doris Lessing, who has obviously caught the pomposity bug, confidently tells us that there is "inherent in every creature of this Galaxy a need, an imperative, towards a continual striving, or self-transcendence, of purpose." Imagine such moonshine in a regular novel! . . . Genetic engineering is the special province of women sci-fi writers, who have thus failed, rather spectacularly, to liberate the genre from its adolescent concerns. An interest in cloning pervades their work, since cloning gives you babies without the bother of sex and pregnancy. . . . Sci-fi only *seems* creative; in fact, it merely "plays with fixities and definites," associating, combining, and recombining the paltry elements of experience that already lie in hand. Literature recreates the common world and brings you into closer contact with it...Sci-fi, on the other hand, is merest daydreaming, and mechanically escapist daydreaming at that. A typically fraudulent method of "creating realities" in sci-fi is magnification: the spaceship is a big car, the super- computer a giant abacus, telepathy is extensive intuition, bilious dystopias are aggravated parking tickets. Or reverse the direction of something, make time go backward, turn progress into regress, aging into rejuvenation--or make hot into cold, scarcity into plenty, weakness into strength...But you get the idea: science fiction is always unoriginal, essentially so--an idle toying that is the very opposite of the sustained attention required in real art. The traditional problem of defining science fiction thus boils away into nothing: it cannot be defined aesthetically because it does not exist aesthetically. . . . Sci-fi characters are necessarily one-dimensional; since they live in unreal worlds, they cannot be build up through observation or tested against experience....Far from being dangerous and daring, as its enthusiasts constantly exclaim, it is essentially *boring*, since no one cares, or can care, about the joys or sorrows of beings on Pterapsis IV or Terebratula VII.... . . . Why read science fiction? Well, if you are suffering from an impacted molar or a broken heart, sci-fi will help you to oblivion, since reading it is as close to being dead as you can get. But even so, sci-fi has its throbs of vexation. There is, for example, the disgusting worship of science, pervading even those books that attack it. The first artists who wrote about science hated it--they thought it presumptuous, unnatural, cruel, and sick. Contemporary sci-fi has abandoned this tradition of Hawthorne and Shelley and gone whole-hog for modernist ambivalence or pulp paraphernalia.... [This guy sounds like he either 1) has a grudge against a SF publisher who refused to publish one of his books or 2) has been reading too much of the "quack Viennese doctor", as Nabokov so aptly described Freud. It would be amusing to see Ellison tear this guy to shreds. --Stuart] ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 16-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #108 *** EOOH *** Date: Thursday, December 16, 1982 9:01PM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #108 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 17 Dec 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 108 Today's Topics: Books - Finney/Simak's TIME AND AGAIN, Martin's FEVRE DREAM Query - Mog will not remove a curse Misc - filking, laser disc and SF T.V. - Star Trek's City on the Edge of Forever and original script, Dr. Who Movies - Fantastic Voyage, SW/TESB/ROTJ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Dec 82 16:01:26-PST (Sun) From: decvax!decwrl!sun!megatest!fortune!dsd!atd!avsdS.nelson at From: Ucb-C70 Subject: Time and Again "Time and Again" by Jack Finney? Could be, but it is also the title of a book by Clifford Simak, originally published as "First He Died" in the mid 50's. An intricate plot with Galactic empire, time travellers, space explorers, androids, and robots. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Dec 1982 0515-EST From: TYG at MIT-OZ at MIT-MC Subject: Fevre Dream This is the latest novel by George R.R. Martin, currently available in hb. It deals with the adventures of a Mississippi River Captain in the mid-1800s and his partner in creating the gloriest and fastest steamer on the river. The partner, Joshua York, has other purposes though. The book is an interesting study of a scientificly rational vampire species, and what shapes it would take. Also, it is not as depressing as some other Martin books such as Dying of the Light (don't get me wrong, it's a good book but i wouldn't want to read it when i felt down). All in all, i reccommend it. tom galloway ------------------------------ Date: 12 Dec 82 2:13:20-PST (Sun) From: decvax!yale-com!brunix!rb at Ucb-C70 Subject: Mog will not remove a curse "Mog does not remove a curse 'till better triumphs over worst, 'till bad to good has been reversed, and out of error good has burst." Does this ring a bell? DOES ANYBODY KNOW THE NAME OF THE BOOK it's from? It's a kid's book, about some kid who gets wings. The plot is more or less as follows: A kid lives with his mother in the boarding house which she runs. His father was a great magician, but is dead now. The kid rescues a funny little traveling salesman's briefcase. The traveling salesman is thankful, and gives the kid a potion which, when rubbed into his shoulders, with the proper incantation, gives him wings. The kid flys around at night (no one is allowed to find out), having a ball, and doing various good deeds. Everything works out wonderfully in the end, with the traveling salesman getting restored to his former self, the mean old lady next door becoming a saint, etc. The book was one of my favorites for a long time. Now my copy is gone, and I can't remember the title or the author. Anybody out there know? Please help, i'm losing my mind. -- Ronen Barzel (Please respond by mail) ------------------------------ Date: 11 Dec 82 21:44:18-PST (Sat) From: decvax!genradbo!wjh12!mjl at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: What is a Filk? Filk: short for FilkSing, a particular form of obsession found typically at S.F. conventions, where large groups of people will gather to sing (each in his or her own key, of course) original and not-so-original songs, to original and not-so-original tunes, of a scn F&SF nature. Generally conceded to be one of the high points of SF conventions, at least by those who participate. This has been a public service announcement... ------------------------------ Date: 12-Dec-82 17:35:26 PST (Sunday) From: SJohnson.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: City on the Edge ... If you'd like to see what Ellison's original script looked like, it's in "Six Science Fiction Plays", ed Roger Elwood (Pocket Books, 1976, paper). There's a special intro by Ellison in which he describes the changes made, and (in his own, inimitable way) his feelings about it. -- Swen ------------------------------ Date: 13 Dec 82 15:17:34-PST (Mon) From: harpo!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!pur-ee!gba at Ucb-C70 Subject: Dr. Who I would appreciate help in finding where Dr. Who items such as a hat and scarf can be purchased in the Chicago area. Please reply by direct mail. Thanks. George Adams pur-ee!gba ------------------------------ Date: 13 Dec 82 9:09:05-PST (Mon) From: harpo!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!fred at Ucb-C70 Subject: Laser Disc and SF This may be a false impression but after viewing Laser Video Discs of Star Wars and The Wrath of Khan I am convinced that viewing movies with the Lasers Discs is better than seeing them at the theater. I have seen Star Wars 20 some times at the theaters and the first time I saw it on disc I heard things that I never heard before. It is also good for convincing friends about really happened in a movie, for instance Obwan kills two people and slices the hand off a third in the bar scene. Has anyone else viewed these discs with differing opinions? Fred BTL/ABI INDY ------------------------------ Date: 13 Dec 82 19:48:30-PST (Mon) From: npois!houxm!houxa!houxt!3133rvh at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: Fantastic Voyage f I remember correctly, the movie had the sub reduced in two stages. After the first stage the sub was put in a LARGE hypodermic filled with water. The hypo was then reduced to "normal" size and the sub was injected. The movie never explained what happened to all that half reduced watter - did the book explain this? ------------------------------ Date: 12 Dec 1982 0339-PST From: Henry W. Miller Subject: Why DV is taller then Obi Wan Remember that Darth Vader is in a quasi life support suit. That might account for the apparent difference in height... -HWM ------------------------------ Date: 11 Dec 82 22:23:31-PST (Sat) From: decvax!genradbo!wjh12!mjl at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: tesb: cave scene failure? - (nf) In the cave on Degobah (sp?), Luke was facing his own "dark side" and potential to be corrupted, as Vader was. Note that he reacted in anger, and HE drew his weapon first, not the shadow-Vader. Luke also took the first swing -- he didn't need his weapons because the Jedi doesn't react by attacking -- he was SUPPOSED to be passive in facing the situation. (Remember, the real Vader later tells Luke "Release your anger. Only your hatred can destory me." Of course, this is exactly the opposite of the truth, and Vader is just trying to make Luke that much more susceptible to the Dark Side, so that he can be 'turned' for the Emperor.) One nice note -- when the mask explodes, we see Luke's face inside. This seems to me like a nice metaphor for (1) Luke's potential for corruption, an and (2) the fact that Vader really IS Luke's father (well, a clone thereof), who was similarly corrupted. Like father, like son, is the implied message. Matt Landau ...mhuxi!wjh12!mjl ...linus!wjh12!mjl . ..genradbolton!wjh12!mjl ------------------------------ Date: 12 Dec 1982 (Sunday) 1134-EDT From: SPEAR at Wharton-10 (Daniel Spear) Subject: SW Fathers -- Rebuttal to myself Inspired by another letter in the current digest, I must offer an alternate explanation for the Darth/OB1 controversy. One limitation, imposed by our biological structure, granted, we are imposing on this discussion is the idea that a person has only one father. There is never any mention of Luke's mother (or, as was mentioned, anyone else's father). What if it becomes conventional to refer to the person one is cloned from as his father. Then we get this scenario. Luke's "father" (the one OB1 refers to, and who is Uncle Owen's brother) was a contemporary of OB1, who is old enough to be Luke's grandfather. He was cloned to produce Darth Vader, referred to by OB1 as a "young Jedi". Darth was then cloned to produce Luke. Which is effectively the same as being cloned by the first (a clone of a clone is a clone -- the gene pool is identical). So OB1 likes to think of the first, his friend, and one with identical gene makeup, as Luke's father. And in fact it is possible that Owen and OB1 don't know that Luke actually came from Darth instead. So OB1 knows that Darth killed the man he thinks of as Luke's father. And Darth knows that, although he killed that man, he is in fact Luke's father. How's that sound? Dan ------------------------------ Date: 13 Dec 1982 0944-EST From: DAVID.LEWIN Subject: Word origins in "Star Wars" I believe that "Jedi" comes from the Arabic for a holy warrior, someone who has embarked on a holy war or "jehad". Frank Herbert uses a similar word in DUNE refering to the fighters in the religious crusade against thinking machines. As for Obi-wan Kenobe's name, I do not feel that OB1 is appropriate. An "obi" is "a broad sash worn with a Japanese kimono." Obi-wan is clearly a title of respect, probably meant by Lucas to add the mistique of the Samurai to that of the Moslem holy warrior. Perhaps Lucas will get Toshiro Mifune for a wise old Jedi in one of the upcoming films...[Will someone pass along the hint?] --dave lewin ------------------------------ Date: 10 Dec 82 16:37:25-PST (Fri) From: CAD.moore at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: re: test: cave scene failure? - (nf) #R:rocheste:-30400:ucbcad:17600003:000:698 ucbcad!moore Dec 10 16:37:00 1982 "Perhaps Luke was expected to let the Vader-image slash him the same way Obiwan let Vader participate in his dis-corporation." But wait, a very important fact should be noted here. In the two battles Luke had with Vader, both real and imagined, Luke drew his weapon first. In the cave, the Vader figure made no threat except by his presence. Luke failed his test by reacting with violence. As a side note, notice that Obi-Wan drew last both against Vader and in the cantina. Also, as a piece of trivia, does anyone remember the one and only one time we see writing (and in english, yet!) in SW1? Peter Moore ...!ucbvax!ucbcad!moore (USENET) ucbcad.moore@berkeley (ARPANET) ------------------------------ Date: 13 Dec 1982 17:24-EST From: David.Anderson at CMU-CS-G at CMU-CS-A Subject: Rendezvous on Tatouine Any speculation as to why our heros are going to rendezvous on Tatouine in RotJ? I'm wondering if Luke hopes to learn something by examining the things that Ob1 left behind. David ------------------------------ Date: 13 Dec 82 19:06:58-PST (Mon) From: Try at UCI Subject: Star Wars Questions Questions! We have questions! With May 1983 getting closer all the time, speculation is running rampant about every detail of RotJ. Well, as a relative new-comer to sflovers I've got a couple of STAR WARS questions and I was wondering if someone outthere on the network could help me out. An interview with Mark Hamill in the Nov. 82 Bantha Tracks begins with a description of a scene shot a Elstree studios last January. It mentions "the mime artists troupe who articulate the Mon Calimari". Can anyone tell me what a (the) Mon Calimari is(are)? Also mentioned in the same issue of BT is a RotJ exhibit that appearred at Chicon IV last summer. Did anyone go to the Worldcon and see this exhibit? If so, can you give the rest of us some insight? (This may have already been discussed,if so I missed it.) In closing, I offer a whole new area of STAR WARS speculation. We have all been operating in a sort of "can't see the forest for the trees" mode, speculationg on the identity of the other, etc. We know that RotJ wraps up the Adventures of Luke Skywalker, and we know that Lucas and Co. will then jump back to the Clone Wars for SW I, II and III. Anyone care to speculate (seriously or frivolously) what episodes VII, VIII and IX are going to be about? Thanx, Tom Johnson ------------------------------ Date: 13 Dec 82 13:39:00-PST (Mon) From: harpo!ihnp4!ihldt!tmh at Ucb-C70 Subject: re: Darth Vader and Luke If we're going to give way to wild speculation how about this? Luke isn't a clone at all, but has two natural parents. Proposition: Suppose that you can't hide ancestry through the force, but you can hide your sex (especially if your Jedi enough). This leading to... Tatata ta de da...... Darth Vader is really Luke's mother. Wipe that look of confusion off your face!!!!!! and read on. Plot to the first trilogy runs something like this: Young not so hot looking (in fact almost masculine) female Jedi trainee gets knocked up by young hunk type male trainee and leaves the Jedi in disgrace when young male refuses to marry her and the rest taunt her about her predicament and possibly even looks. She has the child and leaves him to be raised by her sister or brother (or whoever Luke's Uncle and Aunt were). Her brooding leads her to the dark side of the force and this leads her to vow revenge on Skywalker and the rest for her disgrace. Eventually during her revenge she comes up against her old teacher and the father of her child. She avenges her disgrace at Skywalker's hands only to be thrown into the volcano or whatever by OB1. Surviving but badly hurt she is repaired using modern military equipment (how many females have you seen in battle dress) including a voice synthesizer thing which is male. Realizing the power her appearance now commands she converts to being a male and continues her revenge (Clone or Colon Wars etc.). Afterwards few remember her original sex and everybody assumes she is male. When she and Luke finally meet she just normally concels the fact that she is female, but can't concel the genetic tie. Luke assuming she is a male just doesn't check to closely and realizes his kinship, but not her sex. Boy! doesn't this explain lots of things like Darth's mood changes, why she doesn't talk back to Boba Fett (they both being horrible mutilated are now lovers since only they can stand to see each other nude), the beauty parlor thing Vader sat in just before talking to the emperor and why her light saber is a different color. Just out of the Top of my Head, Tom Harris or is it just out of my head? Oh well, see ya at the funny farm. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Dec 82 13:06:42-PST (Mon) From: harpo!eagle!mhuxt!mhuxi!macrev at Ucb-C70 Subject: SW twenty times I've got to have my eyes checked -- I could swear I just saw an article that said someone saw Star Wars TWENTY times!!!!!!! ------------------------------ Date: 13 Dec 82 9:16:27-PST (Mon) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rocheste!heliotis at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: Luke"s Failure in the Cave Some nice ideas, except re. weapons. Don't forget that the light sabres are not ordinary weapons. They get their power from the Force itself. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Dec 82 17:22:08-PST (Tue) From: hplabs!hpda!hpda2!gk (Gregg B. Kellogg) at Ucb-C70 Subject: Vader as father to Luke S. An interesting note prompted from the heated discussion on the "Other." If Darth Vader (D.V.) translates to Dark Father, does this imply the existance of a Light Father (L.V.)? This would fit in with Lucas' naming conventions. If this were the case, then D.V could be the clone of L.V. or L.V. the clone of D.V., either way they are both Luke's father (genetically speaking). Luke could still have a "Light Father" alive out there some place. I wonder who he could be? Gregg Kellogg ..!ucbvax!hpda!gk ------------------------------ Date: 14 Dec 82 0:41:43-PST (Tue) From: harpo!duke!unc!mcnc!cjp at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: Luke"s Failure in the Cave I don't recall the movie saying that light sabres are powered by the Force, although was left with that vague impression. However, I later read (in either one of the Star Wars books or the comic book) a scene in which Luke uses the power pack from someone's unused blaster to recharge his light sabre. Perhaps the Force is a component of the light sabre's "light", I don't know; but apparently not a power source. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Dec 1982 1102-EST From: Roger H. Goun Subject: Luke's mechanical hand I hereby predict that sometime during a climactic battle in RotJ, Darth Vader will take control of Luke's mechanical hand and attack him with it (shades of Dr. Strangelove!). I hereby predict that Darth Vader will learn the prefix code to Luke's mechanical hand and use it to lower Luke's defenses against the dark side. -- Roger ------------------------------ Date: 14 Dec 82 17:11:37-PST (Tue) From: decvax!duke!unc!tim at Ucb-C70 Subject: light sabre power source Contrary to previous articles, light sabres are not powered by the Force. You press a button on the hilt and it turns on. In two cases, light sabres were successfully activated by people totally untrained in the Force: Luke in the first movie ("it was your father's") and Han in TESB (slicing open the tauntaun). Don't try to tell me that this was "the latent Force within them" doing it; if the Force is with Han, then a rock could activate a light sabre. Tim Maroney ------------------------------ Date: 15 Dec 82 10:30:01-PST (Wed) From: harpo!ihnp4!ixlpc!mhauck at Ucb-C70 Subject: SW I have been watching the disscussion about the Clone Wars from Star Wars. If someone had checked the Stars Wars book they would have found on page 75,76 that it was Clone Wars and only Clone Wars. Also on page 80 Luke askes Obi-wan Kenobi about his father's death. Here is the reply. Kenobi hesitated, and Luke sensed that the old man had no wish to talk about this particular matter. Unlike Owen Lars, however Kenobi was unable to take refuge in a comfortable lie. "He was betrayed and murdered," Kenobi declared solmely, "by a very young Jedi Named Darth Vader." He was not looking at Luke, "A boy I was training. One of my brightest diciples...one of my greatest failures." If any one wants to come look at the books for further information let me know I have Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back now in my office. M.J.Hauck ------------------------------ Date: 16 Dec 1982 11:04:48-EST From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX Subject: SW 1. "Endor" is not exactly an echo of Tolkien; one of the favorite Old Testament subjects of painters has been the witch of Endor (from context, she's actually a medium (maybe necromancer)). 2. re what went past Luke while he was hanging onto the underside of Cloud City: one of the nut cases among this area's juvenile fandom (she'd probably be a Valley Girl on the other coast) made up a clay model, realistically painted, of a severed hand, which she planned to hold up (yelling "I got it!") at the appropriate point. I very carefully was not along to see this. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Dec 82 11:13:37-PST (Tue) From: harpo!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!pur-ee!CSvax.Pucc-H.Physics.els at From: Ucb-C70 Subject: Food for thought...........TESB, the 'other, etc. Just a few observations after seeing TESB again the other day.... There was NO music playing when Boba Fett took off with Han. My impression is that there is a definite resemblence, in both voice and visage, between Obiwan and the Emperor. I, however, failed to do the incredibly obvious; could someone out there in Netland who intends to see the movie PLEASE stick around for the credits and perhaps resolve the controversy by noting who played the Emperor!! There are certain hints that Han is somewhat adept in the Force: ----He was the one who blindsided Vader during the battle of the Death Star, without Vader being tipped off by the Force! ----He found Luke during whiteout conditions, with probably hundreds of acres to cover. (Also note that he appears in the same spot as Obiwan's apparition!) ----Other than Obiwan, Luke, and Vader, he is the only one that I can remember who uses a lightsaber! ----In the asteroid field, not only does he miss all the asteroids, but he outmaneuvers presumably the best fighter pilots in the galaxy! (They were part of Vader's fleet, hence more likely to be the best.) ----In the dining room scene, Vader must parry Han's shots before wresting the blaster from him. Vader should've been able to see in Han's mind that he would shoot, or presumably some scared officer would've fragged him by now. Note: These are only observations/speculations. I have no definite op inion. I think I'll wait until RotJ. els[Eric Strobel] pur-ee!pur-phy!els ------------------------------ Date: 15 Dec 82 17:53:00-EST (Wed) From: ** Cathy ** Subject: TESB - The Other I'd just like to get some things straight about "the Other". Excluding all theories that assume that the Other is not a person, there have been three opinions put forth here which I'm commenting on (especially the last one). First, the one I think is most reasonable: that the Other is a character we haven't seen before. It's a good way to introduce a new character. I've also wondered if this person won't turn out to be Luke's brother or cousin or something like that. Apparently heredity counts a lot in determining who gets to be a Jedi. One thing for sure -- it won't be anyone that Kenobi knows about. Second is the theory that the Other is one of the characters in TESB. I think that changing a character like Leia or Han to Jedi material in two hours is asking a bit much. They're just completely on the wrong track. I can sympathize with this, though -- it's kind of disconcerting to find that Luke, the new Robert Redford, will have to share the spotlight with someone we don't even know about yet. But this may have been necessary to save the plot of ROTJ from getting too Luke-against-the-entire-Empire-ish. The third theory is the one that made me want to write back about it right away: ~=''The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi''? *Which* Skywalker? Okay, so here's another idea: Life was often boring on Luke's home planet, so the inhabitants might have sought out each other for entertainment. A couple of days before the Empire shows up, Luke could have been at a helluva party. So the ''Other'' may indeed be *his* son?? The Force seems to have some hereditary aspects..... (from: Hobbit ) First, Luke was the most innocent twenty-year-old in the galaxy, and I caught no hints of anything funny going on in SW. Also, if you might recall, he was entirely given over to space fights and piloting and such (consistent with any young boy, as anyone who has ever had a little brother can attest to). It is VERY hard for me to picture the Luke of that time getting involved in a, shall we say, helluva party. Second, there is relatively little time between SW and ROTJ, so this kid would be at most nine years old, probably younger. I wonder what the Jedi minimum age is? Unless this kid gets brought up on "Super-Gro Vitamin Pills", he just isn't going to fill the bill. I find it much more likely that in referring to "the son of Skywalker", the Emperor was simply using the third person in speaking to his subject -- quite understandable considering that Vader was kneeling before him. Also, there is an implication that Skywalker as he used to be is "dead", and has been replaced by Vader. Better hang up before this gets too long! -- Cathy ------------------------------ Date: 15 Dec 82 12:38:54-PST (Wed) From: harpo!ihnp4!ihldt!ll1!sb1!mb2b!uofm-cv!paul at Ucb-C70 Subject: Luke in the cave, zen, ... One admonition from the world of Zen is "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him." That is to say, realization comes from within, etc. and info from without is not the right stuff. So you can't push that zen bit too far, what with the instruction from Yoda. Maybe it's more like the Kung-Fu TV show, or Luke is learning the space-age bushido. While he had the chance, Luke should have enlightened the audience as to what the sound of one hand clapping really was. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Dec 1982 1458-EST From: Stephen R Balzac Subject: The Other In light of the increasingly ridiculous suggestions as to who the Other is, I am going to submit a number of possible suggestions for the other, none of whom have appeared in either movie, although most people will be familiar with the names mentioned. I will submit one per day until I go home for christmas break. The first one is: Bugs Bunny. Bugs Bunny is obviously capable of being the other. He is capable of dodging bullets (obviously a master of the force). He always knows when someone is out hunting him, and can influence their minds to believe that its really duck season. All this shows that he is obviously a Greater Master than Luke or Vader. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Dec 82 9:02:25-PST (Wed) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rocheste!heliotis at Ucb-C70 Subject: Light Sabre and The Force Everybody sez that the sabre does not get its power from the source. They also say that can be proved by the fact that Han Solo uses a sabre, and Luke could use it when he first picked it up. I thought everybody was part of the Force, it's just that some people were more aware of it than others, and perhaps these sabres were designed to work with anybody's "Force Field". Anyway, I will hold judgement on this until I see ANH (SW4) again. rochester!FtG says it's coming to HBO in February (If untrue, send flames to *that* address). I will not claim that light sabres get their power from The Force again until that time, so no more rebuttals, please. By the way, did anyone mention the beginning of ANH where Leia makes it quite obvious she knows OB1, by sending him that message via R2-D2? That sure makes a strong argument that she's got a close tie with the Jedi Knights. Jim Heliotis ------------------------------ Date: 16 Dec 1982 1815-EST From: Reed B. Powell Location: MRO2-2/Pole 13A Subject: The "OTHER" Interesting how just a few simple words can spark ideas that seem to go on forever! Here are some ideas/comments on the recent rumblings on the SFL concerning ESB and RotJ: WHY DID LEI TURN BACK/DOES THIS MEAN THAT SHE IS WITH THE FORCE? No, it simply shows that Luke is with the FORCE, and has the ability to control the thoughts (and, if necessary, actions) of other beings. Remember the Space Port scene in SW/ANH, where Obi Won controls the thoughts of the guards? Same idea. OBI WON'S REMARK UPON LUKE'S SKILL AS A PILOT WARRENTS CHOOSING HAN SOLO AS THE "OTHER." Hogwash. All Obi Won was doin was remarking upon the family trait of being an excellant pilot, not making the point that one must be a good pilot to make a good Jedi knight. remember what Yoda said in ESB: "Good Warrior eh? Wars do not make one great." For a little jumor, how would you picture Yoda (obviously a Jedi) in the Falcon? HAN SOLO'S ABILITY TO ACT QUICKLY WITHOUT THOUGHT IN EVIDENCE THAT HE IS THE "OTHER." Or, more likely, it is evidence of is inate ability to stay alive. We have known since the first time we saw him in SW/ANH that he is a rough-and-tumble spaceman, in the tru tradition of Heinlein, "doc" Smith, et al. If he could not navigate the ship so well, and make decisions quickly on the fly, he would be a DEAD spaceman. VADER NEEDS LUKE MORE THAN LUKE NEEDS VADER. Very true. it is usually the case that evil (aka the Dark Side of the FORCE) desires power. Vader's only hope of achieving greater power and glory is in fact to unite with Luke to overthrow the Emperor. He may not have as easy time of it as he thinks, since the Emperor certainly has knowlege and powers Vader is ignorant of (see below). JUST HOW MUCH DOES VADER KNOW ABOUT THE FORCE? It is clear that Vader does not know everything about the FORCE and, specifically, Jedis. During the first Luke/Vader battle in ESB, Vader maker the remark "Impressive - Obi Won has taught you well." This is the logical thing for Vader to belive, since Obi Won was Vader's teacher. Since Vader was compromised by the Dark Side early on, however, he is not aware that there are entities above Obi Won - in this case Yoda. It apparently has never occured to Vader that the Good Side might have a counterpart for the Emperor (but then we seldon see instances in literature or real life where evil believes that anything is stronger than itself). 10:1 the Emperor knows about Yoda, but has chosen not to let Vader know about him. OBI WON HAS A CHARACTER FLAW IN THAT HE DID NOT TELL LUKE ABOUT VADER BEING HIS FATHER. OK, let's presuppose for the moment that Vader is in fact Luke's father. Maybe Obi Won does not know. He only knows that one of his students gave in to the Dark Side. We never really knew if Luke's father was still in training at the time of his death (Obi Won does say in SW/ANH that Luke's father was one of the best Jedi Knights, but does this mean that the training was over? Maybe he exaggerated on the title business just to make Luke feel better). May only Yoda knows, and has kept Obi Won ignorant of the fact? ALL OF THESE COMMENTS ARE LEADING UP TO SOMETHING. IT HAS BEEN THE BELIEF OF MOST PEOPLE (UNTIL THIS DISCUSSION ABOUT THE "OTHER" STARTED) THAT ONE OF THE EXISTING CHARACTERS, OR PERHAPS A NEW CHARACTER, WAS THE "OTHER" YODA REFERRED TO. Think about the dialogue for a second (you really need to watch it over and over and over). Obi Wan says that "That boy was our last hope." Yoda replies "No, there is another." This is not necssarily a person - just "another hope." Keep in mind the new title (shortly before the release of ESB) of STAR WARS - A NEW HOPE. So, what is this "other hope?" Through some form of hocus pokus or whatever, Obi Wan is back in the flesh in RotJ. This is quite visable in the 3 minute leader shown before the recent releases of SW/ANH and ESB. he is no longer an apparition, but a full character again. Therein lies my vote. Cash, securities, trips and sacrificial virgins to me on 27-May-83. -reed ------------------------------ Date: 14 Dec 82 15:35:18-PST (Tue) From: harpo!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!pur-ee!uiucdcs!mcewan at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: Re: Luke's Failure in the Cave - (nf) #R:rocheste:-31200:uiucdcs:12500011:000:156 uiucdcs!mcewan Dec 14 12:37:00 1982 If light sabers are powered by the force, this points to Han as the other, since he's the only non-jedi seen to use a light saber. Personally, I doubt it. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 17-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #109 *** EOOH *** Date: Friday, December 17, 1982 4:29PM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #109 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 17 Dec 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 109 Today's Topics: Misc - SF attack in Harper's Authors - Varley, Wolfe T.V. - Twilight Zone, Dr. Who Music - space rock Movies - SW/TESB/ROTJ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 Dec 1982 16:34:17-EST From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX Subject: Re: SF attacked in December Harper's magazine In response to your message of Thu Dec 16 16:09:03 1982: I'm still trying to find out a bit more about this idiot and why HARPER'S (which has been pleading with me to subscribe---I'll have a nice flame for \them/ the next time that letter comes by) took his article. I have heard that he is supposed to make a profession of nastily debunking anything he can get his paws on, but this comes from fellow fen who were thoroughly annoyed when his article was spread around Loscon a few weekends ago. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Dec 82 12:37:53-PST (Thu) From: hplabs!hplabsb!soreff (Jeffrey P. Soreff) at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: SF attacked in December Harper"s magazine About half of the articles in Harper's are usually flames, and I believe that Arnold Klein's article falls into that category. Frankly, I think Klein states his complaints with far too few qualifiers. Consider " Professors Joe De Bolt and John R. Pfeiffer, in a critical guide to modern sci-fi, have managed to reduce the inconsequence of the bookshelves to eight basic categories: stories of utopias and distopias, human destiny, alternative and lost worlds, alein life, travels by spaceship and time machine to inaccessible places (sic), new technology, new beliefs, and new mental and physical capabilities. Of course, you don't need Occam's razor (a favorite sci-fi preindustrial artifact, misunderstood to mean 'simplify everything') to see that these genera have been multiplied without necessity; uncharitable souls might even consider all eight categories as forming one irrelevant mess." As far as I can see, in dismissing all utopias and distopias, Klein has dismissed most of the popular modes of expressing political thought except for editorializing about transient events. Dismissing new technology and new beliefs dismisses almost all the forces of change except for demographic ones. From the tone of the article Klein sounds like he wants to deal with a world he knows he can understand: "the complexities of real life" and "the hurble-burble of ground rent and class struggle". He sounds like he would be at home a century or two ago, but rather uncomfortable with this century. -Jeffrey Soreff (hplabs!soreff) ------------------------------ Date: 16 Dec 82 12:37:51-PST (Thu) From: harpo!eagle!mhuxt!mhuxa!mhuxh!mhuxm!pyuxjj!colbert at Ucb-C70 Subject: Harper's Reading Harpers is as close to dead as you can get and still breath. pyuxjj!colbert Charles Colbert ------------------------------ Date: 16 Dec 82 14:39:35-PST (Thu) From: harpo!ihnp4!ihuxe!aark at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: SF attacked in December Harper's magazine The attack on science fiction in the December Harper's magazine reminded me of a scene in Tolstoy's "Anna Karenina" (surely Arnold Klein, the author of the attack, would consider this a "regular novel"). Levin and his brother are having an argument about farming in Russia. Each thinks the other is crazy, and the argument gets increasingly heated. Finally Levin's brother starts to walk out in disgust. Levin says something like, "Can't you ever admit you're wrong?" His brother replies, "Very well, I'm wrong! You're right! But I'm still leaving!" The best response to people who attack your reading tastes and go to great lengths to prove how asinine and infantile they are is to nod your head and tell them, "OK, if you think science fiction is pubescent, naive, stupid, noncreative, unoriginal, and boring, then you must be right. But I'm still going to go on reading it." And walk out. In my opinion, Arnold Klein (who was described as "a poet who used to write book reviews and animal features for the Soho Weekly News") is jealous of the interest of many people in science fiction instead of "regular novels," and the consequent lack of money being spent on those regular novels, and the royalty income going to science fiction authors instead of writers of non-science-fiction and poets like himself. I disdain to argue with a person who I perceive has this attitude, or apologize to him or her for my reading tastes. Since Klein has dismissed science fiction, I will dismiss Klein. I'll just walk out, continue spending my book money on whatever *I* want, and let Klein think whatever *he* wants about me. Alan R. Kaminsky Bell Laboratories, Naperville, IL ...ihps3!ihuxe!aark ------------------------------ Date: 16 Dec 82 14:16:25-PST (Thu) From: harpo!eagle!mhuxt!mhuxi!macrev at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: Harper's Three years ago I submitted a story (SF) to Harper's. I fully expected a rejection slip, and sure enough I got one. What made this one different from most others was the handwritten note on it: "This is not at all the sort of thing we publish. Have you tried the `little' magazines?" The rejection didn't bother me -- the note did. It smelled of a disease called intellectual elitism. Their recent condemnation of science fiction probably means that the disease is in its terminal stage -- any magazine that would publish such baseless hysteria (and thereby endorse it) has apparently lost its grip on editorial sanity. Mike Lynch mhuxi!macrev ------------------------------ Date: 17 Dec 1982 08:51 PST From: Hoffman.es at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #107 It's awfully hard to win an argument against someone like Klein (author of the Harper's article trashing SF). There is simply more bad SF than good, so Klein can wear you down. It's Sturgeon's Law: Ninety percent of anything is crap. --Rodney Hoffman ------------------------------ Date: 17 Dec 1982 10:21:43 CST (Friday) From: Mike Meyer Subject: Varley & the attack on sf. Yes, there are those of us out here who liked TITAN/WIZARD. I'm one. They aren't as good as Varleys short stories - but then again, how many authors write novels that are as good as (or better than) their short stories? Especially when they deal with abstractions in the manner of Varley/Ellison? As for the attack on SF in Harpers - Yuch. This guy sounds like he's been reading to much Space Opera and `best-selling' sf. Maybe we ought to find out how many of the things on the various suggested readings list he's read... Subject: Varley I like Titan and Wizard (although I do also like the shorter works, I don't really like to compare them, they're both great in their form). I also hate running out of books in a series (I usually don't start multibook series, unless they have all been published). Does any one know when JV intends to put out the next one? It is left open at the end of Wizard (it seems to me that a good name for the third book would be "Demon"). [Last I heard, DEMON, which is indeed the title, was scheduled for release in the first half of '83. --Stuart] ------------------------------ From: "RUNE::B_TODD c/o" Date: 12-DEC-1982 22:42 Subj: ROTJ, Wolfe, Clarke All right, already! My vote for the 'other hope' has always been Vader (what else would show the ultimately benevolent direction of the Force than a conversion?), but I can't really get involved in the endless (and fairly groundless) speculative process. Discovering SHADOW OF THE TORTURER (Wolfe) was a rare treat: it has been a very long time since I read ANYTHING that actually used the English language rather than whatever subset the author felt appropriate for the illiterate (or maybe the authors themselves have become so). In closing, let me cast a vote for reviews (book or movie) in preference to speculation (that's just an opinion, not a call for censorship). Alternatively, partitioning SFL so that one can safely skip the frothier sections would be useful. - Bill ------------------------------ From: "DJLONG AT MERLIN c/o" Posted-date: 23-Nov-1982 Subject: Space Rock I know this subject might be getting a little tired but: There was mention of a Rick Wakeman album that was dedicated to fantasy. That could have been one of two. He put one out early called "Myths and Legends of King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table". A more recent (1976) album entitled "No Earthly Connection" has more of a SF AND Fantasy overtone. It includes the song "Spaceman" (Part 3 of 5 of a LONG song) along with "The Prisoner" which deals with what happens to a murderer AFTER he gets the business end of a hangman's noose. There was an all-too-brief mention of Rush. This included their songs "Cygnus X-1" and "2112". "2112" is a full-side, multi-song piece of art that was supposedly based on a female SF author's book and there are rumors of making into a movie. [Maybe someone could supply the name of the book. Plot is Anti-Utopian society of massive cities that control EVERYthing, kind of like THX-1138 wherein eventually the 'elder race of man' comes back to reclaim earth and, in the end, announces it triumphantly to the Solar Federation] Mention was also made of "Starship Trooper" from Yes's "The Yes Album". No, it doesn't have much to do with SF except for an occasional reference to the Starship Trooper. Yes's only real, bona-fided SF song was "Arriving UFO" which, if you have heard the lyrics can be amusing [I could not take it oh-so-seriously, really, when you called and said you'd seen a UFO]. That also makes use of technologic effects for some of the weird sounds. On Yes's last original album they had a song called "Machine Messiah" dealing with our dependence on machines for our work. The most recent case is on Rush's latest album "Signals". It is a song called "Countdown" that describes the maiden voyage of the Space Shuttle Columbia. It goes so far as to have some of the actual audio tapes of the launch sequence in the background. Cheers - David J. P. Long (MERLIN::DJLONG, DJLONG @ MERLIN) ------------------------------ From: "JOHN FRANCIS AT EIFFEL c/o" Posted-date: 06-Dec-1982 Subject: SFL Submission (Twilight Zone) Good news for TZ fans in the NY area (or who can get WOR, NY channel 9, on local cable television services). I caught the last ten minutes of a TWZ episode over the weekend, and saw from the credits that this was again two shows back-to-back. As this is the usual way they show TZ episodes in this area I was not particularly astonished, although I did wonder what TZ was doing on in the afternoon slot normally reserved for movies. Reading the TZ episode guide today I find that what I saw was the end of "On Thursday We Leave For Home", one of the 1-hour episodes! I can only assume they ran two one-hour episodes in the two-hour movie slot, and may well be doing this again some future weekend. Needless to say, I shall be watching....... John. P.S. Thanks, Lauren, for the episode guide. If it wasn't for that, I'd never have known. ------------------------------ From: "TSC::COORS::VICKREY c/o" Date: 7-DEC-1982 20:28 Subj: The Doctor's regenerations THE MANY FACES OF DR. WHO In response to the not-100%-accurate stuff going around about Dr. Who: I discovered the good doctor in early 1981 and latched on to the series with the same fervent joy expressed when I discovered Star Trek in 1967. So, the following is gathered from books, magazines, conventions, and miscellaneous and I stand by its accuracy. Dr. Who premiered November 23, 1963 on the BBC. The Doctor was played by William Hartnell, a highly respected veteran actor. He had a granddaughter, Susan, and kidnapped (yes, kidnapped!) two of her teachers (Ian and Barbara) when they stumbled into the TARDIS. It was at this time that the chameleon circuit broke, leaving the TARDIS stuck in the shape of a blue police box. (TARDIS stands for Time And Relative Dimensions In Space; police box is a contraption that served as a sort of telephone booth for British police - when the light at the top blinked, the nearest bobby was supposed to call in. These devices are now obsolete.) The first Doctor was played as an anti-hero and was a very grouchy old man. Hartnell left the series in the middle of the fourth season due to ill health. The BBC, which had already handled the problem of companions wanting to leave the show by writing them out and writing new ones in, then came up with the novel idea of the Doctor having to regenerate due to his bad health as the "reason" for his change in appearance and personality. According to the official canons (as I remember hearing it), this was the Doctor's first regeneration. The Second Doctor was Patrick Troughton, a veteran character actor who shows up all over the British tube (spotted him in All Creatures Great and Small, with Peter Davison, the Fifth Doctor). His Doctor was a clown/hobo, who disarmed people by being very silly, played the recorder, and was given to offering people jellybabies, gobstoffers, and the like. The Doctor's second life came to an end at the end of the sixth season when he ran into a situation too much for him to handle and he was forced to call upon his fellow Time Lords for help. Help him they did, and they thanked him for the information that made them aware of that terrible mess - then they tried him for the crime of perenniel interference and sentenced him to involuntary regeneration and exile to Earth. (Two behind-the-scenes reasons for this: Troughton wanted to move on, and the BBC budget shrank, so they needed cheaper sets. The next three seasons are almost entirely on Earth - and on locations within 25 miles of London.) The Third Doctor was Jon Pertwee, a comedian and caberet performer. His Doctor was very much the dandy and very into gadgets - he produced the sonic screwdriver, the whomobile, a who hovercraft, a who helicoptor, and a whoed-up Edwardian roadster named Bessie. It was Pertwee's Doctor who worked for UNIT (although it was Troughton's Doctor who first met the Brigadier) and Pertwee's Doctor who came across the Master for the first time. The Third Doctor spent a lot of time protecting Earth from invading aliens and found himself on occasion trying to protect the invading aliens from Earth. He also found himself at the beck and call of Gallifrey, being sent on missions to provide his special brand of interference. As a tenth anniversary special, the Three Doctors were reunited to combat a menace to their/his home world of Gallifrey, much to the chagrin of the Brigadier, who had finally got used to the idea that his friend the Third Doctor was also his friend the Second Doctor and now found himself confronted with both at once and a third that he had never met! At the end of this story, the Doctor's exile was lifted. At the end of the eleventh season, Pertwee was ready to go. The story here was that the Doctor had picked up something on his travels that he had to return, and in doing so suffered radiation damage to the point of death. Another Time Lord intervened, and started up a greatly accelerated regeneration. Hence the Doctor's "erratic" behavior in Robot. Tom Baker played the Fourth Doctor. Those who have seen his predecessors say that he combines characteristics of all three of them. Features of the Baker era are the scarf(s), pockets, jellybabies, K-9, the return of the Master, and two trips to Gallifrey. Baker played the Doctor for seven years, making him the current record-holder. These shows are all available in the U.S., from two different distributors and trimmed down (**expletives deleted by automatic net censoring program**) to fit half-hour viewing slots. In the eighteenth season Baker began to feel that it was time to move on, so his Doctor fell to his regeneration at the end of Logopolis (which is full of truly marvelous backpointers to events and details all the way back to the very first Doctor Who). The Fifth (and present) Doctor is played by Peter Davison. He wears a sort of cricketeer's uniform (which looks very preppy to me), the shirt with question mark lapels that Baker wore in his last year, and a stalk of celery in his coat lapel (because "it's civilised"). He is into cricket. His Doctor is less reliant on gadgetry (hence the departure of K-9 with Romana, and the loss of the sonic screwdriver in a Davison story called The Visitation). The Master is still around. And, alas, no scarf. The Doctor unravels it to find his way around the TARDIS during his latest regeneration, a fate he saved it from in the labryinth on Minos (or was it Crete?). I've seen three Davison stories, and he is good. (It seems to be an established fact that your favorite Doctor is the first Doctor you see, no matter how much you like the others.) Some of the events are given away in the Dr Who guide available to this list, but all I will say is that one companion leaves the show, another seems to leave but will be back, and a certain category of villains will return. The twentieth season will have a former companion in every story - the Brigadier is confirmed. The Black Guardian, whom the Doctor foils at the end of the Key to Time series, is also back. And the Doctor will return to Gallifrey. The nineteenth season, which is the first year of Davison's Doctor, will be available in the U.S. starting January 1; the twentieth season will become available in March, and the twenty-first season in March 1984. There is a two-hour twentieth birthday special being planned - I'm not sure what the distribution for that is. And a series called the Five Faces of Doctor Who, featuring the very first Doctor Who story, a Troughton story, the Three Doctors, a Pertwee story, and Logopolis, is supposed to be distributed as a package. (Harass your local stations!) ------------------------------ From: "Dave Mitton at Smaug c/o" Posted-date: 8-Dec-1982 Subject: Star Wars and the Death Star trivia The person that mentioned that the Death Star is not called that in SW is wrong. Upon a recent review of it, I paid attention to that detail and noticed that no one calls it the "Death Star" until the final scenes at the rebel base. Then the mission control "voice" starts announcing the time until the "Death Star" will be in range. Previous to that all of the Empire personnel call it a "battle station" or simply "this station". A good example is the meeting in Gov. Tarkin's conference room. Another interesting thing I noticed is that Lucas carefully avoided any obvious text in our "Roman" alphabet. You will see lots of Arabic numberals, and some funny symbols here and there, but there is only one place that you see readable English text. That is on the Tractor beam control that Obi-Wan turns off. I guess this was really necessary, since you had to know what he was doing, and he wasn't about to explain it aloud under the conditions. I think it is this attention to detail that makes the world of Star Wars such an "believable" setting. Dave Mitton. ------------------------------ From: "TSC::COORS::VICKREY c/o" Date: 9-DEC-1982 00:13 Subj: Yoda == Emperor? THAT'S IT!!!!!!!!!! Yoda is REALLY the Emperor IN DISGUISE. There is no other. The Rebellion is doomed! And Merry Xmas to you, susan ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 17-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #110 *** EOOH *** Date: Friday, December 17, 1982 11:27PM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #110 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 18 Dec 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 110 Today's Topics: Books - Brunner's THE SHEEP LOOK UP T.V. - "The Invaders" Misc - explosive decompression, Star Trek crosses Known Space Movies - Fantastic Voyage, SW/TESB/ROTJ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 15 Dec 1982 21:45:18 EST (Wednesday) From: David Mankins Subject: The Sheep Look Up, by John Brunner I just finished "The Sheep Look Up" by John Brunner (having read "Stand on Zanzibar" earlier this year). It is a pessimistic, although not exactly depressing, novel about the effects of pollution. It is set in the early eighties and describes a polluted world in which the Mediterranean, Baltic, and Caspian have suffered the same fate as Lake Erie in the 60s, where you can only see a blue sky from the windows of airplanes, and where the rain is so laced with insecticides and defoliants (weed-killers) that gardens wither and die. In short, it describes the world James Watt, Ann Gorsuch, and Ronald ("Prexy") Reagan would like us to have. A world in which the entire United States is a Love Canal. Indeed, Brunner depicts a President of the United States who is always going somewhere on vacation, and who is continually making ignorant remarks to the press about events, leading me to suspect that Brunner modeled the character on Ronald Reagan. Though I suppose most Presidents look this way from across the Atlantic, Ronald Reagan just more so. I say the book is not depressing for a pair of reasons. One reason is that here it is the 1980s, and things really aren't as bad as he describes, and probably aren't going to get quite that bad (although try listening to the news describe the dieldrin contamination in Missouri, and Love Canal, and PCB contamination in Michigan without thinking about this book). The other reason is that it ends on a hopeful note. Actually, its REALLY depressing if you end up considering the way it ends as being a hopeful note. It is written in much the same collage style as "Stand on Zanzibar." If you liked that novel, you should like this one, too. "Zanzibar" seemed "louder" than "Sheep"--I suspect Brunner uses fewer capital letters in the latter novel. It is more than just similarities in style that link the two novels. In addition to being about environmental concerns ("Zanzibar" is about over-population, "Sheep" about pollution), both novels have prophets who are honored, but ignored. Both prophets (Clyde Mulligan in "Zanzibar" and Austin Train in "Sheep") spend some years wandering in the desert after they've achieved fame. Both return to the limelight to tell us how much worse things have become. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Dec 1982 1304-EST From: Mike First Subject: "Invaders" TV series query Remember the TV series "The Invaders"? It is rarely mentioned on this list although I remember it as being quite good. Was it really good or is it just that I was much younger when it was aired (and is RARELY syndicated). One possible explanation for its relative lack of success is the fundamentally depressing nature of its theme. Essentially from week to week, our hero never achieved his goal (i.e. convincing the world that invaders had already landed) nor did he make even minor progress--whenever he would succeed in the beginning of an episode to convince some people of the truth, they would be destroyed or otherwise incapacitated by the end. Not very satisfying for the mass audience. QUERY: Did the series have a planned ending (i.e. did it end by having David Vincent convince the world that the invaders are here) or did it die out abruptly due to cancellation (a la "Time Tunnel", "Lost in Space", etc.) Also, is there some sort of episode guide available? Did any prominent sci-fi writers have anything to do with it? --Michael (FIRST@NLM-MCS) ------------------------------ Date: 15 Dec 82 21:12:32-EST (Wed) From: Ron Natalie Subject: MCP's and Who's Who. Someone was complaining about SF being the last haven of the MCP's. But, if the Master Control Programs don't belong to Science Fiction, where else can they go? In the last series of the Tom Baker Dr. Who shows, there was this planet who were beaming equations out into deep space to restore order because the entropy level was getting too high. Anybody have any scientific or mythological feelings about this? I also saw someone putting down the New Who on the list because he had question marks on his shirt collars. Look closly at Baker, he has them too. -Ron ------------------------------ Date: 16 December 1982 01:45-PST (Thursday) From: Allan M. Schiffman Subject: More explosive decompression: SFL V6 #99 From: "ISHTAR::FELDMAN c/o" Date: 30-NOV-1982 09:51 Subj: explosive decompression. ... Finding a vacum chamber at your friendly local highschool or college science lab, and observing a beaker of water in it would help you understand. ... Wouldn't the experiment be more appropriate if the water is in a sealed plastic bag? You might want to trap as little air as possible, and leave some slack in the bag. Even better if the "plastic" was some kind of gas-permeable membrane. -Allan ------------------------------ Date: 15 Dec 82 20:56:41-EST (Wed) From: Ron Natalie Subject: Fantastic Voyage and Star Trek. About the Sixty Gallon Drum of Water injected into the guy... You will remember watching the "radar" picture of the needle while the submarine was carefully (lest it fall out on the floor) driven to as close to the end as possible. This was done to prevent as much water as possible from entering the guy. Something that was left out of the movie however (but was explained by the book) is what happened when this large metallic submarine that they abandoned in the guys brain regained normal size (you'll remember that they exitted through the eye without it). In the book, one of them drags the partially decomposed thing out with him before it gets too big. As for those who have been second guessing James T. Kirk about the use of the Shuttlecraft and the Transporter in emergency situations: You may submit your applications to the acadamy for mthe next term. -Ron ------------------------------ Date: 15 Dec 1982 1056-EST From: Stephen R Balzac Subject: Vader death count Which is more evil: killing someone with your own hands, or hiring someone else to do your dirty work for you? Besides, Vader does appear to be into torture, which a number of people seem to have overlooked. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Dec 82 13:02:42-PST (Mon) From: decvax!decwrl!sun!megatest!fortune!dsd!atd!avsdS.steve at From: Ucb-C70 Subject: re: light saber how about simply believing Obi Wan when he said that the light saber was a more elegant weapon for a more civilized time? It seems throughout history that the hand weapon is usually replaced by the "NEW and IMPROVED" versions of projectile weapons as they are developed( the long bow by the cross-bow, the Springfield by the M-1, etc...). Current military customs usually provide for the wearing of the dress sword only on special occasions. How practicle would a sword (or even a light saber) be in stopping an opponent at 50 yards? I would appear that Darth Vader took on Obi Wan as a matter of pride. The sensible thing to do would have been to stay back and lay waste to the corridor, including Obi Wan, with a suitable weapon. That, however, never seems to happen (the bad guys never take the easy way out--they like to gloat!). How to obtain a new light saber? Check out the local antique gun shoppe. I'm sure someone's grandfather had one at one time but it outlived it's usefulness and was traded-in for something more appropriate. (you gots to look at realities (?)). If not, well, the plans coulden't have all been lost. (After all, it was THE WEAPON of the Jedi for a thousand generations!!!). Just run down tho the local smithy.l Besides, if you can still get battries for it, there must be some, somewhere. If you gots to get caught up in the story, you gots to start believing more and stop putting in so much sweats over the unessential. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Dec 82 13:19:29-PST (Wed) From: decvax!ittvax!neiman at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: Food for thought...........TESB, the "other, etc. The other day, I saw TESB for the second time. The scene in which Darth Vader wards off Han's blaster fire using the force answered one of those questions which had been bothering me since I saw Star Wars for the first time, to wit, how can our heros stroll through barrages of enemy fire without getting even singed while the Imperial Troopers fall right and left. Obviously the force (as well as the necessity for character continuity) protects them and redirects enemy fire. And I thought that the guys in white armor were just incredibly bad shots... DanN ------------------------------ Date: 14 Dec 82 12:02:10-PST (Tue) From: harpo!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!pur-ee!CSvax.Pucc-H.Physics.els at From: Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: Food for thought...........TESB, the "other, etc. Another thing I forgot to mention.... When speaking about the dark side of the Force, Yoda says something to the effect that once the dark side takes over, you are forever in its sway. That would tend to rule out a turnabout by Vader. Does anyone remember the exact quote?? els[Eric Strobel] pur-ee!pur-phy!els ------------------------------ Date: 14 Dec 82 20:52:26-PST (Tue) From: decvax!utzoo!watmath!bstempleton at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: Vader death count There are many death counts greater than those of Vader and Tarkin. For example, the Vogons in The Hitch Hiker's Guide ttG destroy Earth and no doubt many other planets. We're also told of whole planets destroyed in games of galactic Billiards. Many grandiose stories outdo even this. Consider the tally against Boskone by the Kinison clan. I think top billing goes to good old Nathan Brazil, however. Anybody got a case that can top him? ------------------------------ Date: 14 Dec 82 12:32:49-PST (Tue) From: harpo!ihnp4!ixlpc!tomoc at Ucb-C70 Subject: The Emperor I caught Empire the other night and did remember at the end to see who played the Emperor. I can`t remmember his name, but I know it was NOT Alec Guiness! However, as noted before, Obi Wan and the Emperor did look strikingly alike. I think some people have come up with some very interesting ideas about him, Vader, etc. but I`m just going to wait for ROTJ to find out who`s who. Tom O`Connor ixlpc!tomoc ------------------------------ Date: 14 December 1982 00:06 est From: Schauble.Multics at MIT-MULTICS Subject: StarTrek crosses Known Space One of the animated Star Trek episodes, titled "Slaver Weapon", is virtually identical to the Larry Niven story "The Soft Weapon". This is not surprising, since Niven did the script for that episode. This episode caused all of Star Treks history to be re-written to include Kzin, Slavers, and so on. I am told that anti-gravity for Star Trek was discovered because of a flying belt found in a stasis box. The following is a combined chronology for that universe. It is taken from another bboard, but attributed to NEXUS magazine. Y1 First contact between Humans and neighbors. Y4 Federation formed. Y32 Federation sub-light CL in service. Y33 Romulan Warbird in service. Y34 Gorn sub-light battleship in service. Y36 First Gorn-Romulan War begins. Y38 Lyran-Klingon War begins; no details known. Y39 Gorns lose first Gorn-Romulan War at Gorn-Shima. Y40 First Federation-Romulan War begins. Lyrans attack what they believe is a Klingon mining colony. The outpost is, instead, from the Hydrans, and not previously known to the Lyrans. Thus begins the first Lyran-Hydran War. Y42 Lyran-Klingon War ends when several Lyran clans abandon the war to protect their homes from the Hydrans. Lyrans are forced to accept an unfavorable settlement. Y43 Lyrans defeat Hydran invasion, but reach negotiated settlement rather than continue the war. First Lyran-Hydran War ends. Y45 Cruiser design introduced by Federation. Y46 First Federation-Romulan War ends with ceasefire. Y48 First Lyran-Kzinti War begins. Y50 First Klingo-Kzinti War begins. Y56 First Lyran-Kzinti War ends. Y62 Federation launches first warp-powered cruiser. Klingons launch first warp-powered D6. Second Gorn-Romulan War begins. Y63 Kzinti's develop warp power. Federation begins converting thirty old-style sub-light cruisers to warp power. Y65 Hydrans develop warp power. By a fortuitous chance, the current sub-light ships adapt very well to warp power. Conversion of these ships begins. Federation CA, DD, SC in service. Klingon D6, F5, E4 in service. Kzinti CS, CL, FF in service. Drone I in service. Y66 Gorns develop warp power. Gorns could use this advantage to destroy the Romulans, but choose to fight defensively. Incidents along Hydran-Klingon border. Klingons want settlement rights on oxy-nitrogen planets in Hydran territory; Hydrans want same rights on methane worlds in Klingon space. Y67 Lyrans develop warp power. Y68 Gorns win second Gorn-Romulan War. Lyran CA, CL, DD, FF in service. Second Lyran-Hydran War begins. Y69 Gorn CA, CL, DD in service. Y71 Federation forms the United Star Fleet. Member planets begin disbanding their "national" fleets. Second Lyran-Hydran War ends when improved Hydran weapons give them a decisive advantage over the Lyrans. Y72 Federation Tug, Cargo Pod, Starliner, Police, GS cruiser in service. Klingon-Hydran "incident." Y73 Hydrans attack Klingons. They do not have a formal alliance with the Kzintis (who are still at war with the Klingons), but are considered as co-belligerants. Klingons are hard-pressed to fight a war on two fronts. A new Hydran weapon gives the Klingons much concern. Y74 Freighters and Q-ships generally available, except to Romulans. Y75 Badly outnumbered Klingon fleet defending the Hydran Frontier is decisively defeated by the Hydrans. Klingons agree to a peace settlement granting the Hydrans trade concessions, and allowing them to colonize several methane-atmosphere planets within Klingon Empire. Kzintis howl with rage because Hydrans will not continue the war. Klingons purchase much war material (at rediculously inflated prices) from Hydrans and turn on Kzintis. Y77 Drone II, IV, V in service from this date. Y82 First Klingo-Kzinti War ends. Klingons capture three key planets. Y83 Federation CC in service. Tholians first encounter by the Klingons. First of several vicious border wars lasts two years. PC in service. Klingon D7, F-5S, E3, G2 in service. Klingon Tug-B, Cargo, Power Boost, Transport pod in service. Kzinti Scout in service. Drone III in service. Y84 Klingons, having defeated Kzintis, attack Hydrans. This is known as the "Second Klingo-Hydran War" to Federation Historians, as the "War of Retribution" to the Klingons, and as the "War of Infamy" to the Hydrans. Lyrans attack collapsing Hydran border and capture several planets, but are not formal allies of Klingons at this point. This is the Third Lyran-Hydran War. Y87 Klingons smash Hydran fleet. Hydran colonies are destroyed. Many attrocities are committed by the Klingons. All Hydran ships larger than police frigates are destroyed, and the Hydran Kingdom is reduced to a client of the Klingons. The Klingons established governors on Hydran planets. Due to the difference in atmospheres, however, these governors are never really able to control the populace and usually rule from orbiting satellites. These satellites have powerful weapons aimed at the planet below, but are poorly defended against attack from space. Y88 First Federation-Kzinti War begins as Kzintis attack. Second Lyran-Klingon War begins as arguments develop over division of the Hydran Empire. In the confusion, the Hydran colonies of Altroth, Minxitith, and Krooth have not been noticed or occupied by the Klingons. These colonies were established by major merchant guilds of the Hydran Kingdom, and the later power of the Guilds stems from this period. The Guilds maintain the monarchy through Prince S'Lenthna, the last heir of Hydraxan IX. The Prince is a virtual puppet (the Guilds hold the real power), but his presence is important in rallying the Hydrans. Y89 Kzintis makes gains, capturing several planets. Romulans attack Tholians, but abandon the "First Romulan-Tholian War" in less than a year. Y90 Third Gorn-Romulan War begins with Romulan attack. Gorn Fleet Tug, Cargo, and Transport Pods, Starliner, in service. Civil wars in the Hydran "lost colonies", as Prince S'Lenthna tries to break the power of the Guilds. Y91 Klingons begin conversion of D6 class, increasing engine power from 24 to 30. All are converted by Y93. Klingons and Lyrans settle their differences by negotiation. The Klingons are anxious to do so because they plan to attack Tholia. Federation begins counter-offensive to regain territory occupied by the Kzintis. Y92 The Great Klingo-Tholian War begins. First Federation-Kzinti War ends, with border re-established in the original location. Y93 Extended range drones available. Y95 Kzinti Fleet Tug, Pods (C, LSD, T), in service. Y96 Third Gorn-Romulan War ends. Y101 Hydran civil wars intensify. Much of Minxitith rendered uninhabitable. Y102 Klingons abandon war against Tholians. Y103 Second Klingo-Kzinti War begins. Y104 Kzinti Drone Frigate in service. Y106 Kzintis win second Klingo-Kzinti War, regain planets. Y109 Second Lyran-Kzinti War begins when a Kzinti CS destroys a Lyran exploration ship. The Lyrans claim a moral outrage over the attack, but ignore the fact that their "exploration ship" was exploring Kzinti territory for new colony sites. Y110 First Federation-Klingon War. Y111 First Federation-Klingon War ends inconclusively. Y113 Federation completes the disbanding of the "national" fleets as the Federation Star Fleet is completed. Sixteen Orion ships and 9,000 skilled crewmen mutiny and disappear. Y114 Second Lyran-Kzinti War ends. Klingo-Tholian "incident." Y115 Federation Battle Pod in service. Y117 Orion CR, DR, Slaver, LR observed in operation. Y119 Klingon Battle Pod and Tug-A in service. Y120 Fourth Gorn-Romulan War begins. Y121 Gorn Monitor Pod in service. Klingo-Tholian "incident." Kzinti Battle Pod in service. Y123 Third Klingo-Kzinti War begins. Y125 Fourth Gorn-Romulan War ends. Gorns have claimed some territory. Lyrans attack Kzintis with part of their fleet, taking advantage of the concurrent Klingo-Kzinti War. This is the Third Lyran-Kzinti War. Y128 Hydran civil wars end as Prince S'Lenthna abdicates in favor of his grandson. Under-age, all of the boy-king's regents are heads of Guild houses. Y129 Hydran "lost colonies" begin preparations for restoration of the kingdom. Technology is acquired from unknown foreign sources, later said to be Kzinti or perhaps Orion. The great 22nd century journalist Rod N. Berry suggest that the Orions were operating under a contract with the Federation G.I.A. Y131 Third Klingo-Kzinti War ends, with inconclusive results. Y132 First Orion CA sopotted during this year. Hydran agents begin infiltrating the Klingon-occupied planets of the kingdom. Y133 Gatling Phaser developed by Hydrans. Y134 Hydran Ranger, Lancer, Scout/Hunter in service in the "lost colonies." Y135 Hydrans from the lost colonies under King Hydraxan XI attack the Klingon satellites over the Hydran planets. In a swift campaign lasting only a few weeks, the Hydran Kingdom is restored. The personal popularity of Hydraxan XI makes him "unacceptable" to the guilds, and he dies under mysterious circumstances. While Hydraxan XII ascends the throne, the guilds solidify their power. Y136 Second Federation-Kzinti War begins as Kzintis attack border stations. Y137 Third Klingo-Hydran War begins when Hydrans attack Klingons. Y139 Klingo-Tholian Incident. Y141 Third Klingo-Hydran War ends. Hydrans have gained no territory, but have regained their self-respect. For reasons that remain obscure, four new kings take the throne in less than one year. The last, Hydraxan XVI, manages to hold power for two years. Y142 Second Federation-Kzinti War ends with no change in border. Y143 Brief Fourth Lyran-Hydran War begins and ends as Hydrans recapture two planets from Lyrans. Lyrans are unable to devote full attention due to troubles on Kzinti border, and agree to ceasefire. Y144 Fourth Lyran-Kzinti War begins. Y145 Kzinti renegades (members of a neo-samaurai cult) raid Allen's Planet, slaughtering all 3,000 colonists, and kidnapping a human infant named William S. Gerard. "The Marquis" (the Kzinti noble in charge of the border) captures and executes the renegades to preserve peace on the border. Y146 Hydran "civil war" begins, but all combat will take place within the palace over the next five years. Y147 Tholian Cruiser in service. Y149 Klingo-Tholian Incident. Y150 First Orion Salvage Cruiser spotted in operation this year. Y152 Hydraxan XXIII ("The Great") ascends the throne, which he will hold for almost two decades. Y154 Second Federation-Romulan War begins. Y155 Treaty of Pelione re-establishes the Neutral Zone, and ends the second Federation-Romulan War. Ensign Phillip Kosnett graduates from Star Fleet Academy. Ensign Ardak Kumerian graduates from Deep Space Fleet Academy. Fourth Lyran-Kzinti War ends. Orions destroy border station K4. Y156 Second Federation-Klingon War begins. War ends the same year, with the Organian treaty. Orions destroy a Kzinti border station. Kzinti-Hydran Treaty signed. Each pledges to attack the Klingons and Lyrans if the other is attacked by them. The Klingons and Lyrans sign a joint defensive treaty six weeks later. Many Lyran clans oppose this treaty, resulting in a sporadic civil war. Y157 Gorn-Federation "war" starts as the result of a small incident. Both fleets mobilize, but no actual fighting takes place. The "war" ends only six weeks later with signing of the Treaty of Algoran. Treaty of Friendship signed. Fifth Lyran-Hydran War begins. Lyran civil war ends abruptly. ECM and scrambling drones available. Y158 Fourth Klingo-Kzinti War begins. Citing their treaty, the Hydrans almost immediately launch an attack against the Klingon border squadrons. The Lyrans join the Klingons in fighting both Hydrans and Kzintis. The Federation, anxious to reduce the threat to their security posed by the Klingons, shifts fleet units to the Klingon border, and discusses with Organians the possibility of limited action by the Federation to restore the "Balance of Power." This is, however, a "hoax" (the Federation would never consider military power as a solution to the problem), intended to influence the Klingons to negotiate an immediate settlement to end the war. The plan backfires. Y159 Klingon-Romulan Treaty of Smarba signed. Klingons begin supplying advanced technology to the Romulans, allowing experimental conversion of six Warbirds to War Eagles. These increase pressure on Federation Border. Federation transfers elements of the Star Fleet from the Klingon to the Romulan border. This allows Klingons to transfer ships to fight Kzintis. Federation attempts to use the "threat of force" as a substitute for simple force has failed, and resulted in a dangerous situation that may eventually destroy the Federation. Y160 First KR and KF5R ships transferred to Romulans, in service next year. Phillip Kosnett becomes captain of the Heavy Cruiser Kongo. Y161 Kzintis introduce attack shuttle. Federation-Klingon "Hostage Incident." Romulans acquire freighters and Q-ships. Y162 Kongo converted to Command Cruiser. "The Marquis" sends William Gerard home in a Fighter-Shuttle. Fifth Lyran-Hydran War ends. The Bezwell Index episode. Romulans begin regular conversion of Warbird ships to War Eagle class, at the rate of two per year. Fourth Klingo-Kzinti War ends with inconclusive results. Y163 Klingo-Tholian Incident. Kongo conveys delegates to conference that will organize anit-pirate forces. Orions attack ship and try to stop conference. Y164 Romulan Pelican and Falcon in service. Kongo enters time warp and returns. Y165 Kzintis launch first carrier. Y166 Series of incidents on Klingo-Kzinti border (undeclared war). Kumerian destroys Kzinti shuttle squadron #26, and is promoted to command the D6 "Destruction." Klingon D6 "Devastator" operates as experimental semi-carrier. Conducts several raids on Kzinti frontier to test fighters. William Gerard graduates from Star Fleet Academy. Orion Pirates attack Zeta Omicron station. First encounter with an Andromedan. Kzinti CV, CVL, and CVE in service. Federation-Kzinti articles of agreement. Y167 Kzintis introduce improved fighter (can guide its own Drones). Kumerian, now in command of the "Tholian Frontier Harrassment Squadron", makes a "demonstration" attack against Tholians. Y168 Federation and Klingons introduce Dreadnoughts. Chaff pods available. Klingon CV(T) and Hanger Pod in service. First General War begins when war erupts on the Lyran-Kzinti border. This is firt known as the Fifth Lyran-Kzinti War, but rapidly escalates. Y169 Klingons join Lyrans and declare war on Kzintis. Hydrans attack both Klingons and Lyrans. William Gerard serves as an "observer" with the Kzinti fleet. Tholian Black Widow and Dreadnought in service. The "Cutlass Episode." The Klingon D6 Destruction, commanded by Ardak Kumerian, raids Sherman's planet. Warp-powered version of Romulan Warhawk in service. Kzinti Space Control Ship in service. Klingons begin construction of B-10 Battlewagon "Invincible." Y170 Klingon D6 Battlecruiser "Destruction" mutinies, and is interned at Federation Starbase 16. Returned to Klingons next year. Klingons are outraged that the Federation dismantled the Ubitron Interface Module. Klingons want to declare war on Federation, but are restrained by the Organians. Kumerian, captain of the Destruction, is demoted in disgrace. His son Kollos graduates from Deep Space Academy, but is refused a naval commission. He transfers to the Security (Police) Forces. Klingon CV(T) "Berzerker" lost in combat (circumstances unknown). Kzinti Hangar Pod in service. Romulan Condor in service. Orion CVL spotted operating. Lyran Lion DN in service. Hydran Paladin, Dragoon, Knight, Cuirassier, in service. Y171 The Organians disappear. Several races are blamed for this, but none know the true situation. Klingons declare war on Federation and attack Federation outposts. Federation CV, DE, CLE enter service. Three carrier groups formed. Gorn DN in service. Y172 Federation responds to Klingon attack with raids by new carriers. Federation fleets are sent to assist the Kzintis, and a Federation expedition (Operation Hydra) unsuccessfully attempts to penetrate Klingon space to reach Hydra. Y173 Hard-pressed by the Federation, the Klingons convince the Romulans to attack. The Romulans declare war on the Federation and launch a massive attack. Y174 Gorns Join Federation. First General war has now reached virtually complete escalation. Grand Alliance (Gorn-Federation-Kzinti) fleets battle Romulan-Klingon-Lyrans. Hydrans have co-belligerant status with Grand Alliance, but are not formal allies. Orions begin operating against the Grand Alliance, using unprecedented numbers of ships. Responding to a Peace initiative from the Kzintis, the Admiral Kang sets out on it most excitin voyage. Y176 Klingons and Romulans attempt massive operation to destroy Tholians. Hard-pressed, the Tholians join the Grand Alliance, but will not allow Federation ships into their territory. Y177 Desperately besieged, the Tholians agree to let ships of their allies enter the Holdfast, but only those of the Gorns and Kzintis (since they would not pose as much of a later threat). Ardak Kumerian restored to rank as Captain of D6 "Destruction." Y178 Lyrans introduce Psuedo-Fighters. Y179 Klingons begin operating Pseudo-Fighters. Two flotillas are formed: 700th (LDSF personnel) and 701st (ISF personnel). Kollos Kumerian's 701st Gunboat Flotilla ("The Bounty Hunters") begins a reign of terror that destroys 135 Kzinti fighters in a year and a half. Ardak Kumerian promoted to commodore. Y180 Hydrans and Orions begin operation Psuedo-Fighters. Three Federation DN's converted to DN+. Y181 Federation CV "MacArthur" crashes into Romulan capitol during "Operation Remus." Kzintis begins operating Psuedo-Fighters, and add Pseudo-Fighters to their Space Control Ship Dreadnoughts. Gorns, Romulans, and Tholians begin operating Pseudo-Fighters. Ardak Kumerian promoted to Admiral. Phil Kosnett promoted to Commodore. Y182 Operation "Cavalry." Gorn fleet units transfer to Klingon frontier for major assault in cooperation with Kzinti and Federation units. Y183 Repeated carrier battles between Federation/Kzinti and Klingon forces. Federation CV "Napoleon" heavily damaged and out of the war. Y184 Pleiades Turkey Shoot, "Cracker Jack" Radey saves the fleet. Y185 Organians return and halt the war. They offer no explanation for their absence, but express hope that the "Lower Empires" (as they call the othes) have "learned the futility of war." ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 18-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #111 *** EOOH *** Date: Saturday, December 18, 1982 3:22PM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #111 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 19 Dec 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 111 Today's Topics: Themes - sexism in Piers Anthony and SF, Time Travel, shrinking in HGttG Misc - HGttG in Nature, video game T.V. - recent "Aliens/ET" show, SF and lack thereof Movies - Star Trek, Airplane II, SW/TESB/ROTJ, Sir Alec G. alive ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 Dec 82 11:01:25-PST (Thu) From: harpo!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!burton at Ucb-C70 Subject: More Piers Anthony sexism I have just completed Piers Anthony's "Viscous Circle", which is altogether a fine book. However, I noticed how blatantly sexist Anthony is in his science fiction; prior to this novel, I had only read his Xanth novels, and so contributed his sexism to the genre in which he was writing. Now I can no longer use this excuse. Was it just my imagination? Was I being overly sensitive? I realize Anthony's sexism has been discussed on the net before, but has anyone discussed his attitudes with regards to science fiction novels? I recall such lines in "Viscous Circle" as: It is the nature of the [female] sex to not give love away, but to always use it to gain some advantage. There were many instances (which I can't remember well enough to quote) where Anthony makes statements (such as the one above) about various characteristics of the female sex, which I felt were at least a little, and in some cases greatly, demeaning. Has anyone else out there read "Viscous Circle" and gotten a similar impression? Doug Burton inuxc!burton ------------------------------ Date: 16 Dec 82 12:55:36-PST (Thu) From: harpo!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!pur-ee!CSvax.Pucc-H.Physics.els at From: Ucb-C70 Subject: Sexism in SF If you want REAL sexism, try the Gor series! I think it's every REAL man's duty to read these books(or enough of them to get the general idea) so that someday we can set things right and women can be free to take on their true role in life!!! (---left as an exercise for the reader: is this tongue-in-cheek, or is this for real! You'll find out after civilization falls!!!!!) els[Eric (the Barbarian) Strobel] pur-ee!pur-phy!els ------------------------------ Date: 11 Dec 82 1:50:06-PST (Sat) From: teklabs!tektronix!tekcad!franka at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: time travel, ST, and AIRPLANE II Re: time travel - My favorite story about time travel is "The Time Hoppers" by Robert Siverberg. I know it's more of a story of the human costs of time travel rather than the technical, but I still think it's one of the best stories around. Re: City on the Edge of Forever - I have seen the TV show AND read the original screen play (published in the book, "Six Modern Science Fiction Plays" (I don't remember by whom)) and I find the original script by Mr. Ellison MUCH superior to the version shown on TV. The script definitely de- served all the awards it won (I wish I could say the same for the TV version...). I just got back from seeing "Airplane II: The Sequel". It is a fantastic movie (if you liked the kind of bad jokes and horrible puns in Airplane!). I won't tell you any more of the plot except that it takes place on the first lunar shuttle flight and that several of the cast are back. Also, in the closing credits it says, "Coming soon from Paramount (or whatever the hell company made it), "AIRPLANE III"! I heartily re- commend it to anyone who liked the first movie! Frank Adrian uucp: {ucbvax,decvax,chico,pur-ee,cbosg,ihnss}!teklabs!tekcad!franka CSnet: franka@tek ARPAnet: franka.tek@rand-relay ------------------------------ Date: 14 Dec 82 14:46:17-EST (Tue) From: David Axler Subject: Time Travel books (RE: Request from Rene Steiner for favorites on this topic.) There are just too many time travel books to pick one favorite easily. Silverberg's "Up the Line" and Laumer's "The Great Time Machine Hoax" are the funniest, while Poul Anderson's "Tau Zero" is probably the most hard-scientific, as the time travel occurs solely as the result of near-light velocity. ,but deals nicely with some of the paradoxes that others have avoided. One of my all-time favorites, though, is still Fritz Leiber's "The Big Time," plus his other stories of the Change War. Open question: Should alternate/parallel universe stories be considered as a sub-genre of time-machine stories, since so many of them are based on the [cliched] notion of the "effects" of changing one (just one...) event in the past? If so, then we'd have to count books like Dick's "The Man in the High Castle", and Len Deighton's "SS-GB". The latter, by the way, is actually quite well done alternate-history sf. Its basic premise is that the Allies lost WWII, and its main character is an inspector at Scotland Yard under the new regime. He's British to the core, but the Yard is now under the control of the British branch of the SS [whence the title..]. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Dec 1982 9:40-PST From: dietz%usc-cse@USC-ECL Subject: HGttG in Nature I noticed the following sentence at the beginning of a review in Nature of the book "Cosmology, Physics and Philosophy": "The anciencts considered the ultimate question of 'Life, the Universe, and Everything' to be part of philosophy even though they were not sure the answer was 42..." (Nature, 11/11/82, page 135) ------------------------------ Date: 15 Dec 82 19:38:59 EST (Wed) From: speaker.umcp-cs at UDel-Relay Subject: Shrinking in HHGttG Date: 30 Nov 82 17:28:22-EST (Tue) From: David Axler Subject: Shrinking in HHGttG I refer to is that dealing with the war between the V'l'hurg and the G'gugvunt [sp?], caused by Arthur's line "I've been having problems with my lifestyle lately" being sucked through a wormhole in space. When the combatants recognize that it's actually due to an ape descendant that they're fighting, they combine their fleets and send them off to destroy Earth. Alas, on arrival the entire fleet is swallowed by a dog! But wait no...hadn't the earth been destroyed by this time? Perhaps the wormhole extended back through time as well, only to reach the two armadas BEFORE earth's destruction? The TV version of this scene, by the way, has the battle set up as an arcade game -- a very nice touch. That really WAS good, with flashing scores and video game sounds and everything. - Speaker ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 14 December 1982 13:11-EST From: AGRE at MIT-MC Subject: *** Special Video Game Alert *** There is a rumor going about concerning a new video game called Communist Mutants From Space. Apparently there is a poster advertizing the game. I must have a copy. If anyone could point me at the manufacturer I would be most grateful. If I succeed in finding it, I'll send another message to sf-lovers for the curious. Thanks alot. - pHil ------------------------------ Date: 15 Dec 1982 0559-PST Subject: Recent "Aliens/ET" TV show From: WMartin at Office-8 (Will Martin) I hope that the readers of SFL had a chance to see the Robin Williams "Aliens/ET" special shown Tuesday, 14 Dec. Lots of good clips from numerous SF movies. One of them was especially interesting. There were two brief scenes from a movie identified as "George Pal's CONQUEST OF SPACE (1953)" [I may have the date wrong]. These scenes depicted some special effects of an orbiting ring-type space station and some EVA construction or similar activity. They seemed to be quite well done for that vintage; they were in color and looked fairly realistic, at least on a TV screen. I considered them to look as good as the "2001" space station shots also shown. This inspires me to wonder why I have not seen this movie before. If it is this good, why hasn't it made the rounds of the late-night SF movies on TV? Are these shots unrepresentative, being the only good scenes in an otherwise-poor film? Or is it, perhaps, a dull film from most viewers' viewpoints, emphasizing technical effects with no story [the title doesn't appeal to the normally horror-film-oriented TV programmer, I am sure!]. Or is the film tied up in one of those silly Hollywood legal snarls that restrict the availability of many films? That brief exposure left me wanting to see the whole thing, and I have no idea if I will ever be able to. Will Martin ------------------------------ Date: 17 Dec 82 09:51-EST (Fri) From: Robert (LISPer DM)Heller Subject: SciFi on the Tube (or lack thereof) One of the main reasons why science fiction serieses don't seem to last on TV, is simply that they are not very profitable, at least compaired with, for example, sit-coms. For the most part, most contemporary sorts of shows (ie cops&robbers, sit-coms, doctor&hospital¶-medic dramas, etc.) use props, costumes, & sets which are "off the self". If fact, most sit-coms, probably use costumes, props, etc. right out of Sears & Robuck! In the case of science fiction, everything (costumes, props, sets, etc.) must be custom made (Sears does not sell Klingon uniforms, etc.) The sets often need special gadetry in them (blinking console lights, computer readouts, etc.). In addition, all sorts of expensive special effects are needed. Another reason is that most of the people you run the TV industry (corp. exe.'s of TV studios, etc.) may not know very much about just what science fiction is - many of think that all you need to do is to take a typical western, and replace the techology - ie six-guns become lasers, horses become rocket ship fighters, indians become Klingons, etc. but with the same basic plot (ie the bad guys capture the girl, the good guys have a shoot-out with the bad guys, and free the girl, and the chief good guy rides off into the sunset with the girl....(yawn) -- or else they do things like Lost In Space, which was just a hybredization of Lassie (complete with June Lockhart!) & The Swiss Family Robbinson transposed into the 21st century... I have a sugestion for putting good science fiction on TV: instead of trying to run a one hour per week sort of show (Star Trek, Battlestart Glactica, etc), how about two to four SEPARATE serieses, each with a 2-hour movie format, once a month per series, ie sort of what one of networks did some time ago with McCloud, Columbo, MacMillin & Wife, etc. The could fill in the extra week movie slots with regular movies. This would give the producers of the shows more time to do a good job and spread out the money a little better (espcially if they only do two made-for-TV science fiction movies/month and use box-office-paid-for movies the rest of the time). Robert Heller heller.umass-coins@udel-relay ------------------------------ Date: 16 Dec 1982 0556-PST From: Henry W. Miller Subject: How the Enterprise has changed Between the first and second movies, did you notice the differences in the Enterprise? 1) Kirk's quarters were much enhanced. (naturally, since Kirk just "took over" at the last minute in ST:TMP) But, in TWOK, it looked as though the stateroom was tailored to Kirk's whims. Although it was not stated, could the Enterprise be Admiral Kirk's flagship? 2) On the bridge: in the first movie, it was stand-up-and- be-shaken-apart-in-wormhole action. In TWOK, there were alcoves and workstations around the place. 3) Most important: In ST:TMP, to the right of the main engineering console, ther was a corridor that Kirk and Scotty ran out of to try to get to the transporter room to override a beamup. In TWOK, that corridor was replaced my the intermix reactor chamber in which Spock died(?) How much time did intervene between the two movies? -HWM ------------------------------ Date: 14 Dec 82 12:38:38-PST (Tue) From: harpo!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!pur-ee!uiucdcs!mcewan at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: Re: Luke's Failure in the Cave - (nf) If light sabers are powered by the force, this points to Han as the other, since he's the only non-jedi seen to use a light saber. Personally, I doubt it. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Dec 82 12:27:03-PST (Thu) From: harpo!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!pur-ee!uiucdcs!mcdaniel at Ucb-C70 Subject: OB1 a liar??? - (nf) There have been two notes recently asserting that OB1 was lying about Luke's parentage (one in fa.sf-lovers). What people don't seem to be realizing is that there is a model for this story. It is known as the GOOD GUY/BAD GUY model. OB1, Leia, Chewbacca, Han, et cetera are GOOD GUYS. These people are kind (if kindness is returned), noble, honest, et cetera. They kill BAD GUYS. Darth is a BAD GUY. He kills for pleasure, lies, is deceitful. For example, he kowtows to the Emperor but later offers to help Luke kill him for their own benefit. He enjoys strangling people (a nassssty man, my precious . . .). BAD GUYS lie. GOOD GUYS tell the truth. OB1 says that Darth killed Luke's father. Darth says the he IS Luke's father. Now, who are you supposed to believe? Tim McDaniel (. . . pur-ee!uiucdcs!mcdaniel) ------------------------------ Date: 17 Dec 1982 09:46 PST From: Morrill at PARC-MAXC Subject: Luke's hand After seeing TESB, a friend of mine questioned the present where abouts of Luke's hand. If someone was to retrieve it before the tissue died, they could, in theory, clone it. If the other hope is a character that has not yet been introduced, perhaps its because the other hope has not yet been born (cloned). Toby p.s. A long time ago, our galaxey was far, far away. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Dec 1982 1748-EST From: DVW.SRB at MIT-OZ at MIT-MC Subject: Vader=Luke's father One viewpoint that no one has mentioned yet is that maybe Vader really is Luke's father, and Obi-Wan was speaking metaphorically when he said that Vader killed Luke's dad. That is, if the Vader personality was sufficiently different from the Skywalker personality, Obi-Wan may very well refer to Skywalker being dead, since the person he would call Skywalker has ceased to exist. I tend to think this a bit unlikely though, since I don't believe Lucas would get into anything so complex. One other point about the scene on Dagobah: at one point Yoda says to Obi-Wan, in reference to Luke, "He is full of anger, just like his father..." Also, today's ridiculous suggestion for the other is Dudley Doright. After all, despite appearing totally mindless, Dudley always gets his man. What better way to hide than to appear to be a mindless jerk? ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 18 December 1982 17:56-EST From: Vince Fuller Subject: Food for thought...........TESB, the 'other, etc. Date: 14 Dec 82 11:13:37-PST (Tue) From: harpo!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!pur-ee!CSvax.Pucc-H.Physics.els From: at Ucb-C70 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC Re: Food for thought...........TESB, the 'other, etc. . . . There are certain hints that Han is somewhat adept in the Force: . . . The points made in this message are rather intriguing and lead me to a slightly strange conclusion: Solo does have some mastery of the force, but has obviously never had any training in it and doesn't seem to have any deep mastery or understanding of what he does - he is an 'idiot savant' wielder of the force. I think he instinctively uses parts of the force which are sensible enough to believe in - he is incredibly 'lucky', but remember 'in my experience, there is no such thing as luck', so luck is probably just an everyday manifestation of the force, which some people happen to be blessed with an ability to control (well, sort of...). What do others think of this slightly off-the-wall conjecture? --vaf ------------------------------ Date: 14 Dec 82 20:31:10-PST (Tue) From: decvax!cwruecmp!ccc at Ucb-C70 Subject: Alec Guiness >From: Clayton M. Elwell [...!decvax!cwruecmp!ccc] The reports of Alec Guiness's death have been greatly exaggerated. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Dec 82 8:09:48-PST (Thu) From: harpo!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!inuxa!claus at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: THE OTHER I've been reading arguments on who the 'OTHER' is for the last month and would like to ask a general question. Have all nine parts of the Star Wars series(three sets of trilogies) already been outlined by George Lucas, or is he just making this up as he goes along? If someone else takes over the production of the next movie in the series will this result in inconsistenties? And, if the outline for the entire story does exist, how difficult would it be to obtain it? Well I guess I asked three questions instead of one, but I am really interested in what anyone thinks about this? Thanks in advance. Dave Claus BTL/ABI Indy ------------------------------ Date: 14 Dec 82 15:35:24-PST (Tue) From: harpo!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!pur-ee!uiucdcs!mcewan at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: SW twenty times - (nf) I've got to have my eyes checked -- I could swear I just saw an article that said someone saw Star Wars TWENTY times!!!!!!! It must have been a typo. It's obvious that everyone in this newsgroup has seen SW at least 200 times. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Dec 82 17:28:32-PST (Tue) From: decvax!utzoo!watmath!csc at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: SW twenty times I was *REALLY* into Star Wars in my younger days...And I have seen it twenty-seven (27) times. Reminiscing about 90 cent movies... Jan Gray ...watmath!csc ------------------------------ Date: 14 Dec 82 15:58:15-PST (Tue) From: decvax!microsof!uw-beave!ubc-visi!majka at Ucb-C70 Subject: SW too many times A projectionist at a theatre in Halifax, Nova Scotia was taken out of the theatre in a straight - jacket after he ran screaming out of the projection room and attacked the screen. SW/ANH had been showing there for three months. Marc Majka. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Dec 82 0:28:08-PST (Mon) From: harpo!duke!unc!mcnc!ncsu!jcz at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: SW other again References: cwruecmp.321 How did the Princess get the 'droid that belonged to Obi-Wan? The 'other hope' is R2D2!! --jcz ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 19-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #112 *** EOOH *** Date: Sunday, December 19, 1982 9:23PM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #112 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 20 Dec 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 112 Today's Topics: Authors - Moorcock, Heinlein, Aldiss, Lucas/SW novels Misc - writing SF, bookscores T.V. - SF on the tube (or lack thereof) Movies - SW/TESB/ROTJ, The Dark Crystal ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 December 1982 1131-EST From: Jim Anderson at CMU-CS-A Subject: MOORCOCK RUN ONS The most likely reason for Mr. Moorcock to write many thin books which are tenuously linked is that he has enough consideration not to make it necessary to buy N books to understand whats going on and get enjoyment from the tale. This allows each book to be evaluated on either a stand alone basis, or as part of a more complex whole. It all depends on how many books you want to buy and whether you have time to read a lengthy series. Jim(JAOL) ------------------------------ Date: 16 Dec 1982 10:24 PST From: GMeredith.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #106 I have missed any previous mention of sex change in SF, so I may be duplicating. Does Heinlein's I WILL FEAR NO EVIL (one I never bothered to finish) qualify? ------------------------------ Date: 14 Dec 82 14:21:44-EST (Tue) From: David Axler Subject: Perceptions of Reality in SF (RE: Paul Fuqua's comments on reality as only the perceptions of the observer, SFL 6:101) Two other books that deal specifically with the perception of reality in sf terms are a pair of novels by Brian Aldiss. The first, "Barefoot in the Head is set in a post-WWIII Europe which has been heavily bombed by third-world nations, who used chemical warfare, specifically long-term, permanent-effect hallucinogens. When the book starts, the narrator is as straight as can be, and is watching the collapse of Western Civilization; by its end, however, the drugs have gotten to him, and his perceptions are totally altered. The other Aldiss novel worth noting in this context is his "Report on Probability A," which Illuminati fans would love because of the paranoia that's implicit in the plot premise, viz., that there are aliens from another time- track (almost the same as ours, but not quite...) watching us to determine the differences. Unbeknownst to them, there are aliens from another .... and so on, ad infinitum. Very well done, in that understated British style Aldiss does so well. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Dec 82 17:07:06-PST (Tue) From: harpo!eagle!mhuxt!mhuxi!macrev at Ucb-C70 Subject: Writing SF Any aspiring SF writers out there? Maybe we all are. I keep hoping that just by being on the net a little POURNELLE will rub off on me. At any rate, have any of you submitted anything for publication? What sort of problems did you encounter? Any suggestions for those of us who may try in the future? What are the pitfalls? Shortcuts? Short stories, or novels? Are BEMs in, or out? (That last one may date me -- I haven't heard 'em called BEMs for years.) Mike Lynch mhuxi!macrev ------------------------------ Date: 18 Dec 1982 0933-PST Subject: SF Bookstores: Moonstone Bookcellars From: Mike Leavitt Minor note: Moonstone Bookcellars is near Washington Circle in Washington, DC, not Dupont Circle (well, actually, about six blocks down New Hampshire Ave). The address is 2145 Pennsylvania Ave, NW--under the barber shop. ------------------------------ Date: Sun Dec 19 20:17:36 1982 From: decvax!idis!mi-cec!rwg@Berkeley Subject: Re: SciFi on the Tube (or lack thereof) (...or, "Production and Decay of Strange Articles") Better than having four series, why not an 'Outer Limits' type format where there is no need for week-to-week continuity? Come to think of it, why not bring back Outer Limits? Rich ------------------------------ Date: 15 Dec 82 10:03:07-PST (Wed) From: harpo!floyd!edp at Ucb-C70 Subject: SW, the books The rumor about Alan Dean Foster ghosting STAR WARS is untrue. In actuallity, Foster wrote a take off on the original SW called "Splinter of the Minds Eye", which was not of the same caliber as SW. On the subject of the SW books, if you are looking for the answers to these questions floating around, read (or re-read) SW + TESB. Lucas goes into great detail about (seemingly) trivial things. There are a couple of prime examples in both books. For example, in TESB Boba Fett's uniform is described as the armor worn by of a group of warriors defeated by the Jedi knights {which might affect (+/-) the Boba Fett theory}. Before I get flamed about Lucas not writing TESB, Lucas did not actually author it but he did edit the final copy and his style is prevalent through out the book. floyd!edp ------------------------------ Date: 14 Dec 82 7:21:31-PST (Tue) From: decvax!decwrl!sun!megatest!fortune!wdl1!jrb at Ucb-C70 Subject: Lucas and SW Novel There is a widespread rumor to the effect that the novelization of SW was acually ghosted by Alan Dean Foster. Anyone have any further information? John R Blaker ------------------------------ Date: 19 Dec 1982 0326-PST From: Henry W. Miller Subject: Why Darth COULD be Luke's father. In SW/ANH, Obi Wan tells Luke that his father was betrayed and killed by a young Jedi named Darth Vader. In TESB, Yoda, I believe says in effect that the Dark Side can destroy you. Now, If Darth is indeed Luke's father, and if he did indeed give himself up to the Dark Side, then he in effect "killed" and "betrayed" himself in doing so. Maybe that is why Obi Wan was so reticent in telling Luke the full story, about his greatest failure. I still maintain the if Darth is Luke's father, then Obi Wan is Darth's father. (And that Han Solo is the "another") I don't believe that Darth Vader will come back to the good side; to do so would be to ruin the best movie villian since the Wicked Witch of the West. Darth realizes the importance of order, but for his own reasons. I expect that he hopes to become the new Emperor. -HWM ------------------------------ Date: 13 Dec 82 16:30:21-PST (Mon) From: decvax!utzoo!watmath!watarts!geo at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: TESB Plot of willson@uci I just finished reading Stephen Willson extended predictions about the plot of RotJ. Emperor and Darth dispatched, "Other" discovered, Republic re-established, *Deep* *Philosophical* *Meaning* for those who like such things. However, it doesn't really leave very much left to happen in VII, VIII and IX does it? ------------------------------ Date: 19 Dec 1982 12:40-EST From: James.Muller at CMU-CS-GANDALF at CMU-CS-A Subject: a new hope Obviously the newest of the new hopes is . . . James Bond. Those of you who have only seen James Bond movies may not beleive this, but the movies aren't about the real James. Fleming's biographies portray a perfect other hope. James will make just enough mistakes in the first hour of ROTJ to keep the movie going for the requisite 2:02 (or is it 2:03 ?). James is suave, and will give those of us who are sick of Twit Skywalker a chance to let our stomachs calm down. The love triange will no longer be a problem -- James will sleep with a variety of girls, as he always has, and his true love will still be his Bentley. And remember, even if his wife is shot, he loses his memory, gets lost on an island, is brain washed be SMERSH, and spends three books doing so, he always gets his man. Finally, when he races races over Darth, brings the Bentley to a halt, and hops out, the broken mask will reveal that Vader is a clone of . . . Ernst Stavro Blofeld. James ------------------------------ Date: 16 Dec 82 18:22:44-PST (Thu) From: harpo!eagle!allegra!phr at Ucb-C70 Subject: Dark Crystal Early Report Dark Crystal opens Friday; a friend of a friend who previewed it "compared it to the first time she saw 2001." ------------------------------ Date: 15 Dec 82 13:41-PST From: mclure at SRI-UNIX Subject: Review: The Dark Crystal n048 1201 15 Dec 82 BC-REVIEW-''CRYSTAL'' (Newhouse 002) Film review, for use when ''The Dark Crystal'' opens at local theaters By RICHARD FREEDMAN Newhouse News Service (UNDATED) In ''The Dark Crystal,'' master Muppeteers Jim Henson and Frank Oz have themselves a ball filling the screen with assorted Skeksis, Garthim, Podlings and Landstriders. Unfortunately, they're all so ugly and menacing that this elaborate fantasy film is more like Edwin S. Porter's 1906 ''Dream of a Rarebit Fiend'' than any of the Muppet movies. In vain one longs for optimistic Kermit the Frog, to say nothing of that determined Gallic charmer, Miss Piggy. Instead, what we get is a sub-Tolkien epic about hibdibs and doodads engaged in a mighty confrontation of Good and Evil that boils down to exactly nothing at all. Good is represented by Jen and Kira, the last of the Gelflings, a race doomed by the buzzardlike Skeksis ever since the Conjunction of the Three Suns 1,000 years ago. Jen has been raised by the gentle Mystics; Kira by the Podlings, who carry on like the peasants in a Brueghel picnic. Both hero and heroine look and act like long-eared Barbie dolls. But it's their mission to restore the Crystal - which darkened and cracked - to its original luminous wholeness in time for the next solar conjunction. Accompanying them is Fizzgig, ''a friendly monster'' who is all bark and fur and clearly kin to Animal, the frenetic rock drummer of the Muppets. But nothing else in ''The Dark Crystal'' suggests that benign world originally created by Henson for ''Sesame Street.'' Instead, he has gone back to the grotesque worlds of such illustrators as Grandville, Tenniel and Rackham for his inspiration. And inspired his creations undoubtedly are, though it's doubtful many of them will turn up in toy stores next Christmas. A banquet of the odious Skeksis, with everyone dribbling and jabbering at once, resembles nothing so much as a collection of Hollywood producers and agents feasting at Chasen's. They even have dessert on the run - but it's the dessert that runs, frantically trying to escape their voracious jaws. Aughra, a mad astronomer with detachable eyes, shows Jen and Kira around his mechanized planetarium, and the Skeksis' roachlike warriors pursue them as they ride their long-legged Landstriders. Apparently working on the theory that the world has taken to its heart such weird creatures as the Yoda in ''The Empire Strikes Back'' and even old walnut-head himself, E.T., Henson and company have filled ''The Dark Crystal'' with an assortment of creepie-crawlies and slithering swamp creatures guaranteed to give any child nightmares for a week. So the result is depressingly like Ralph Bakshi's barely animated version of ''The Lord of the Rings'' in its relentlessly somber brand of fantasy. Henson can make the woods themselves come to life, but Jen and Kira are as lifeless as any Disney hero and heroine, and the heroic endeavor they're engaged in remains dramatically inert and unexciting. X X X FILM CLIP: ''THE DARK CRYSTAL.'' Muppeteer Jim Henson's rather dark and dour sub-Tolkien fantasy involving the battle between good Gelflings and evil Skeksis in a mystic woodland filled with a variety of creepie-crawlies. Highly imaginative creatures, but not much fun to watch. Rated PG. Two and a half stars. RB END FREEDMAN (DISTRIBUTED BY THE FIELD NEWS SERVICE) nyt-12-15-82 1503est ********** ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 20-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #113 *** EOOH *** Date: Monday, December 20, 1982 7:35PM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #113 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 21 Dec 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 113 Today's Topics: Misc - Harper's/Klein's attack on SF Authors - Clarke interview Books - Haggard's SHE Radio - Dr. Demento Movies - Conquest of Space, SW/TESB/ROTJ, ET's effect on children analyzed ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Dec 82 16:35:33 EST (Mon) From: Rene Steiner Subject: Harper's flame Gads! What's-his-face has odd ideas about sex, for one thing. Anyone who thinks that sex is a purely pubescent obsession needs to look around at the world. As far as I know, EVERYONE above the age of 12 is interested in sex in some way or another. I don't know what he misses when he reads SF, but he's missing something if he thinks you can't have rounded characters. That is one thing SF is generally judged on - character development. We KNOW there are books with cardboard characters, but those aren't usually the ones that last. Maybe we could start a list of books that really do have deep character development, and send it to him. I doubt he'd be convinced - it's so easy to see only what you want. (I put in a vote for Vonda McIntyre) Unfortunately, I can't remember all the things that really burned me up about those exerpts, but I'm sure other people will cover it for me. I think What's-his-face just objects to a branch of literature that can be >really< optimistic and >really< pessimistic. This is the future we're talking about. Most 'modern' books are real downers. There are no heroes. I like heroes I can admire, people who accomplish things, and at least try. Maybe he (ol' what's-his- name) just likes books with ineffectual protagonists, if you can even call them that. Oh, well, insert a minor flame about Top Ten books here. - rene ------------------------------ Date: 20 Dec 82 12:38:58-EST (Mon) From: Earl Weaver (VLD/VMB) Subject: Klein's attack on SF Please, no more flames on Klein's attack on SF. The guy is looking for reactions. The best thing is to ignore it (or write letters to the editor & see if Harper's will print a synopsis of the results). ------------------------------ Date: 19 Dec 1982 2226-PST From: Bill Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #107 Well, after hearing about the put down of SF and it fans in "Harper's", I had this overwhelming urge to do something random. I ran out to my garage which contains about 300 or so Galaxys, Fantasy and Science Fiction, and IF magazines going back into the 50's. I closed my eyes and picked an issue. Then I reclined in bed, and opened to a random page in the "F and SF" magazine from January, 1966. I read a wonderful short story by Margaret St. Clair(Who is she?) entitled "Beaulieu," and fell asleep chuckling to myself... Bill ------------------------------ Date: 20 Dec 1982 13:18 PST From: GMeredith.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #107 Regarding the critical article in Harpers. The author is either trying to goad readers into sending in hate mail or is still very much more into Wee Beesties than literature or science. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Dec 1982 1054-PST From: KRIEGER Subject: Lots of stuff Notes... Obi-wan is friend of Leia's father (from the radio show, possibly the book) The credits in TESB are for "voice of Emperor," but say nothing about his appearance I agree that the sound from laserdiscs is superior to most other things, but the theater is still the only place to get the big picture (I really DO like laserdiscs!) CONQUEST OF SPACE is good a period piece, marred somewhat by stupid characterizations and a newsy ("YOU ARE THERE") narration--it should be generally available on TV, and elsewhere Another example of attention to detail in SW4 (my favorite): when C3PO and R2D2 are blasting away in the escape pod, the imperial cruiser's guns swing around to follow it, and are about to blast it away, until they scan it and find that there are no LIFE FORMS aboard (the guns are really small at the bottom of the screen) About the Harper's article, I agree with Alan Kaminisky, and add that this is the type of thing that made Harper's go out of business once (they did, din't they?) The idea of growing a planet was the subject of an OUTER LIMITS episode called WOLF 357, where a scientist simulated the development of a far-off planet in his lab, and was eventually forced to smash the simulation because a creature was growing out of it that was rather threatening (hoping to spark some OUTER LIMITS discussion here) Finally, a guide to the series THE INVADERS is available in FANTASTIC TELEVISION by G. Gerani, and is also available in a back issue of STARLOG (is that a bad word around here?) As far as I know, the series had no end, and check the guide for any prominent writers involved with the series. Thanks for the ST Chronology (whoever that was)--that was a lot of typing for somebody!! John ------------------------------ Date: 15 Dec 82 12:05:16-PST (Wed) From: hplabs!intelqa!omsvax!dps at Ucb-C70 Subject: CLARKE INTERVIEW The New Yorker magazine, Dec 13 issue, has an interview with Arthur C. Clarke. Short (only about 4 columns) but a bit off the wall. Made during a press tour for "2010", but touching only briefly on that. More time is spent on what Clarke is doing. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1982 1059-CST From: marick at DTI (Brian Marick) Subject: Review -- "She" "She" by H. Rider Haggard I started reading this book more out of historical curiosity than anything else -- I didn't expect to enjoy it as much as I did. A young man named Leo is the latest in a family that can trace its ancestry back more than two thousand years, to the Egyptian Kallikrates, who, with his wife, was shipwrecked in Africa, where Kallikrates was murdered by the white queen of a savage tribe. Two thousand years later, it appears that the woman still lives... The plot is quite predictable, with all the classic elements -- the mysterious chest to be opened on the 21st birthday, the shipwreck that leaves the young man, his foster father, and their servant with only one path to take, the gradual buildup to catastrophe, the escape of the heroes just before some natural catastrophe forever eliminates the evidence, and the structure of the book as a manuscript given to the "editor" to only be published after the participants' deaths. There are other flaws in the book. "She" is only occasionally characterized effectively; I would have preferred less of an adolescent fantasy. Haggard doesn't think through the effects of eternal youth. There are scattered passages of rank anti-semitism. Nevertheless, the book's weaknesses are balanced with some surprising strengths. Haggard's style is quite interesting -- very visual and descriptive. It occasionally bogs down, but there are passages of great beauty and power. The best element in the book, though, is Haggard's choice of an "Everyman" character for the narrator. The book is about the meeting of two more-than-human characters, Leo the Greek god and Ayesha of eternal youth and beauty. The reader can identify with neither of them, so Haggard provides an intelligent outcast. Competent, likable, but eternally an observer. (Quite a good observer, by the way -- there is a lot of detail that does much to help along the "willing suspension of disbelief".) At the end of the book, I'd developed a great affection for Holly; he seemed slightly dated, somewhat quaint, but all the more likable because of it. In fact, that really sums up my attitude toward the book. Brian Marick ------------------------------ Date: 14 Dec 82 10:11:20-PST (Tue) From: decvax!genradbo!mitccc!jfw at Ucb-C70 Subject: Dr. Demento When I heard Dr. D. back in Seattle, on KZOK, he also had bleeps, the same sound, too. Since these bleeps cover things WCOZ normally plays without question, I believe it is the Doctor. I also seem to recall him stating that he does this himself (likely so that he can [at least theoretically] play in Podunk...). ------------------------------ Date: 20 Dec 82 12:00:01-PST From: Stuart McLure Cracraft Subject: ET BC-ET (ScienceTimes) By BRYCE NELSON c. 1982 N.Y. Times News Service For many children, at least, the search for extraterrestrial life may seem superfluous. The Extra-Terrestrial has been among us for some time. Children ask for shirts that read ''E.T. - I Love You'' and want E.T. toys under the Christmas tree. The phrase ''E.T. phone home'' has entered the nation's patter. Steven Spielberg's ''E.T. The Extra-Terrestrial,'' after playing only six months, looks as if it will soon become the biggest movie money-maker of all time, even ahead of ''Star Wars.'' What is it about this big-eyed alien from outer space that has so captured the imagination of America's children and many adults? Psychologists say that ''E.T.,'' like ancient fairy tales, contains powerful myths that help give many children confidence to proceed through the emotional travail of growth. ''E.T. is a fairy tale for the preadolescent child,'' those 8 to 12 years old, says Richard Sloves, a clinical instructor in psychiatry at the Downstate Medical Center of the State University of New York. He interviewed 54 New York children aged 8 to 12 immediately after they saw the film. Although parents report that some children under 8 have been frightened by seeing the movie, all these older children seemed highly affected and enthusiastic; most were seeing it for the second or third time. Sloves based his research in part on the work of Bruno Bettelheim and the findings in his book ''The Uses of Enchantment: The Meaning and Importance of Fairy Tales'' (Alfred A. Knopf). The message that fairy tales convey to the child, Bettelheim wrote, is that ''a struggle against severe difficulties in life is unavoidable, is an intrinsic part of human existence - but that if one does not shy away, but steadfastly meets unexpected and often unjust hardships, one masters all obstacles and at the end emerges victorious.'' In Bettelheim's view, today's children, who often grow up in socially isolated homes, need fairy tales even more than children did in the era when those tales were first told. In ''E.T.,'' they find a fairy tale with special appeal because of its space-age setting, more relevant to their circumstances than a story set in a castle. ''Our imagination has been totally captured by space travel; we now use extraterrestrial figures as mythic figures,'' says Elizabeth Thorne, a New York psychologist. ''We're all on our way; there may be E.T. out there, or he may be coming to us.'' As humanity is increasingly forced to consider the possibility of meeting extraterrestrial life, the character of such creatures becomes of more concern. Unattractive as E.T. may be physically, he is totally unaggressive, benevolent and charming. No child need fear an outer space filled with creatures like E.T. The film ''awakens all your desire to believe that you can trust - that you can reach out to a strange person in a strange land,'' says Dr. Thorne. The film has at least two heroes with whom children can identify - E.T. himself and Elliott, the 10-year-old boy who finds, nurtures and saves the winsome alien after he is left behind by his spaceship. Both E.T. and Elliott have been stranded. Elliott feels alone because his parents have separated. But he finds a magical friend whom he can protect and who provides him companionship. Children often have a strong need for imaginary playmates, ''someone who can help them make sense in their switch from their parents to the outside world,'' according to Jerome Singer, a Yale psychology professor. Sloves first became aware of the power of ''E.T.'' when he learned that some children had become ill in the final few minutes of the film, when Elliott and E.T. must part. He found that all of these children were aged 9 to 11, with fathers who had recently left because of divorce. For all children, especially preadolescents, the film raises the conflict between the need to grow up and the desire to stay a child. Elliott decides not to go with E.T. aboard the spaceship, where he could continue living the fantasy. One of the children interviewed by Dr. Sloves said that Elliott stayed on earth because ''Elliott has to grow up and you can't grow up on Jupiter; you stay small and a kid like E.T.'' Dr. Sloves said that the children interviewed thought of E.T. as a child of 10 or 11 who missed his parents, though the movie did not so characterize him. Sloves and the other psychologists interviewed said that ''E.T.,'' like other fairy tales, appealed on a number of levels. The movie offers a portrayal of virtuous children outwitting insensitive adults, the abandonment of the central character in the early stages of the story, the successful resolution through a rescue of the abandoned by benevolent powers, helped by a child who fearlessly dares to do what is right. The movie also offers the theme of rebirth, which characterizes many fairy tales. The makers of ''E.T.'' have woven with threads also found in many powerful fantasies - ''Beauty and the Beast,'' ''The Wizard of Oz'' and ''Peter Pan,'' among others. The story is also reminiscent of ''The Three Feathers'' by the Brothers Grimm, in which Dummy wins his father's kingdom by outwitting his brothers with the help of an ugly old toad. Put to a final test to bring back the most beautiful woman, Dummy wins again by choosing a toad who turns into that beauty. ''It is, in the final analysis,'' Bettelheim wrote, ''love which transforms even ugly things into something beautiful. It is ourselves alone who can turn the primordial, uncouth and most ordinary content of our unconscious - turnips, mice, toads - into the most refined products of our mind.'' ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 22-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #114 *** EOOH *** Date: Wednesday, December 22, 1982 4:31AM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #114 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 22 Dec 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 114 Today's Topics: Books - J. Lieber's BEYOND REJECTION, Crowley's LITTLE, BIG, Chalker's Nathan Brazil in WELL-WORLD, Anthony's NIGHT MARE Movies - SW/TESB/ROTJ the Other, The Dark Crystal ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Dec 82 18:45:54 EST (Mon) From: Fred Blonder Subject: Re: ``Beyond Rejection'' by Lieber From: KRIEGER For those interested in the idea of sex change, et. al., a good selection to peruse might be BEYOND REJECTION by Lieber . . . I know little about the book except that I have looked at it quickly in the bookstore, and read an excerpt . . . I thought this book was rather poor. The central theme of the book is the hero(ine) trying to find out who murdered him in his previous incarnation. At the end of the book (s)he (and the reader) discovers that the murder and murderer are part of an elaborate hallucination arranged to assist him/her in getting accustomed to a new (i.e.: female) body. After revealing this, the author doesn't bother to explain how the previous incarnation actually did die. [Part of the plot sounds suspiciously like the Varley story "The Phantom of Kansas". --Stuart] ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 20 Dec 1982 20:23-PST Subject: "Little, Big" From: obrien at RAND-UNIX I just finished reading John Crowley's book "Little, Big", which I understand was last year's National Fantasy Award winner. I was extremely impressed. This book exhibits a command of language and mood that (Gene Wolfe aside) I haven't seen since Peake's "Gormenghast" trilogy. Highly recommended. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Dec 82 10:17:52-PST (Wed) From: decvax!sultan!dag at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: Nathan Brazil's Death Toll In reply to the comment that Nathan Brazil had topped anyone else in death toll: =~ Nathan Brazil did not "kill" all of the non-wellworld inhabitants. He altered (eliminated) the equation in which they existed. This did not eliminate their souls, though. When the well was repaired and the equations re-established, the souls found themselves in new exsistances. I believe that they even remembered what they had been previously. This was done in order to prevent the universe from being irrevocably destroyed. Even with this in mind, he was reluctant to do it, whereas Tarkin and Vader enjoyed (or seemed to enjoy) what they were up to. You don't see Vader running away from those who want him to destroy the rebel alliance. ~= Consider though, one "other" that has not been mentioned... Gypsy! He shows all of the important attributes of a Jedi. Like Obie-Wan he is able to make others forget that he is there and make them do things they would otherwise not do. I will not say what his connection is with the universe so as not to spoil it for those who have not yet read the Chalker "Wellworld" series, but it is much the same as the force. And he already knows Obie! Just entering my 2.8 cents worth, Daniel Glasser ...!decvax!sultan!dag ------------------------------ Date: 21 Dec 1982 (Tuesday) 1658-EDT From: SPEAR at Wharton-10 (Daniel Spear) Subject: Review - "Night Mare" by Piers Anthony "Night Mare" is the new Xanth novel by Piers Anthony. It is the second Xanth novel to be put out in the last several months (sort of gives you an idea of the effort involved in write one). Like the previous, "Ogre, Ogre," "Night Mare" uses a character which had a minor role in a previous novel as its main character. It is Mare Imbrium, a night mare introduced in Ogre, Ogre. Unlike the previous, the story is something that people familiar with Xanth are instantly interested in. Mind you, I liked Ogre, Ogre, but the story used mostly unfamiliar characters involved in a quest that no one (no readers) really cared about. Night Mare concerns the newest invasion of Xanth, the Next Wave. Night Mare will certainly appeal to anyone who has read and enjoyed the other 5 books of the Magic of Xanth trilogy. It includes almost every character in the other books, and presents them in favorable, enjoyable lights. (Finally, come back all the way from book 2, Bink actually gets to do stuff!) I think it also will appeal to people who have not read the other books. Night Mare is simply a good, if simplistic, story, with a nasty bad guy and lots of heroics and mysteries and a happy ending. The basic story line, without giving away much, involves the NextWave of Mundanes, attacking Xanth. The Good King Trent is taken by a mysterious ailment, and Xanth, left without a ruler, turns to Good King Dor, who is struck by the same ailment, and Xanth, left without a ruler, turns to Good King Zombie Master, who is ... In fact, not only do most old characters appear, most of them become king at some point. Regardless, I will reveal no more. There are two major qualities found in all Xanth novels, those being bad puns and sexism (in fact the latter is pretty common in all Anthony books). They both exist in Night Mare. There are references to a mountain pass made by the misstep of a huge giant named Faux, called the Faux Pass. A drink with a strong kick (literally) called Boot Rear. And so on. In fact, a couple times characters state that, "Xanth is built on puns," which is an interesting sort of meta-comment to see. Feminism takes some major steps in Xanth, if not in the authors mind, with the virtual recognition of equal rights for women, including amongst editorial comments by the author like, "of course women are always helpless in the presence of a virile male." All in all an amusing book, totally without redeeming social value, but who really cares. Dan ------------------------------ Date: 20 Dec 1982 (Monday) 0037-EDT From: SPEAR at Wharton-10 (Daniel Spear) Subject: The Other (revealed) This is my first, last, and (obviously) only entry on this topic. It became crystal clear to me tonight who the Other must be. Lucasfilms has said that the Other will be someone who has not had a big part so far in the series. They also say that Lando Calrissian (sp?) has a much more important role in the new movie. Draw any parallels there? Making Lando the other would also answer people (to some extent) who accuse SW of being racist (i.e. that there are no other black people in the movies/universe). There might not be many, but the ones that are around are good. (An off-the-wall suggestion: Vader wiped out most of the Jedi. Might this explain the low occurance of blacks?) No more Other from me, Dan ------------------------------ From: healy.pa @ PARC-MAXC Date: 21-Dec-82 1:13:08 PST Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #112 I must agree with many of you who have seen the SFL Digest go by @ 300 baud that this can be time consuming. Perhaps because this is the first time I have read it at home that rate doesn't repel me too much I have the inertia to respond. Dark Crystal (the movie) I intend to see during the holidays. I expect to enjoy it immensely despite trhe review that preceeded this message. Have we all become so sophisticated that we cannot enjoyh a good story?? Or good effects \ . . . I for one would vote for a seperate dl. for star wars and one for star trek and leave sf lovers alone. I need something between space dl and reality. NASA isn't it. . . NYTimes isn't it. . . I always thought we were, but we are becoming redundant. Lets hear from some other neophytes out there who have good intentions and new inputs but no goforitness. Remember...computers don't think, they act on impulse. Clark Healy @PARC MAXC ------------------------------ Date: 21 Dec 1982 (Tuesday) 0739-EDT From: KENNEA at Wharton-10 (Richard Kenneally) Subject: A favorable opinion I have been disappointed by the terrible reviews given to The Dark Crystal, particularly the NYT review. Granted, the dinner scene reminded me of some fraternity banquets I've attended, and the Skesis were thoroughly hideous. However, they certainly aren't worse than arms being cut off by various light sabres, and I doubt that many children will be up late with Dark Crystal nightmares. The kids I know come up with much better excuses to stay up late. I truly enjoyed the movie. It was an excellent attempt at muppet-like animation on a grand scale. I'll admit that it certainly lacked a Lucas, but the plot was not that far below the other fantasy and SF movies we spend so many hours talking about. What it didn't lack was imagination in creating a world and the many interesting critters in that world. The land-striders were wonderfully weird, as was the scene in the forest where we are treated to something similar to the Star Wars bar scene. As far as the way the Podlings carried on, ever been to a Polish wedding? One problem I did note was the inability to make eyes "track." ET and Yoda weren't subjected to quite so many facial close-ups as were the Gelflings. Eyes and mouths are still a large problem for Henson and his followers to solve. When you go to see The Dark Crystal, don't expect much deep, philosophical meaning, just enjoy. -]Rick ------------------------------ Date: 21 Dec 1982 08:32 CST From: Johnston.DLOS at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: Review: The Dark Crystal I question whether Richard Freedman actually saw the movie. I caught it this past weekend and thoroughly enjoyed it. I didn't WANT to see Kermit--I wanted to see fantasy, and Kermit is a little too cutesy, although I like him in his place. My big problem is the quote: "Aughra, a mad astronomer with detachable eyes, shows Jen and Kira around his mechanized planetarium, and the Skeksis' roachlike warriors pursue them as they ride their long-legged Landstriders." Well, first-off, Aughra is a woman (even has nipples showing through), and Jen didn't meet Kira until after the Skeksis creatures had destroyed Aughra's home. Then the finally got onto the landstriders well after the encounter with Aughra. I feel this isn't a review--it's a cheap income for no effort. Rick ------------------------------ Date: 21 December 1982 20:42-EST From: Steven A. Swernofsky Subject: The Dark Crystal I thought to send this review from Newsweek because it is so succinct. ``The Gelflings Vs. the Skeksis'' [Newsweek, Dec. 27, 1982] It takes some optical adjustment to sort out the strange beasties that populate @i(The Dark Crystal.) They include: the Skeksis (villainous and vulturelike creatures, with bad table manners); the Mystics (gentile, wise and droopily decrepit, with armadillo tails); the Garthim (the Skeksis' militia, a metallic mix of beetle and crab); the Podlings (button-faced ethnic types, clearly derived from happy but oppressed southern European peasant stock); Aughra (a one-eyed hag who's into astronomy, fierce but benevolent); Fizzgig (a scene-stealing canine, Toto with extra teeth); the fleet Landstriders (towering catfish on stilts), and most important, Jen and Kira, the Gelflings (immediately identifiable by their humanoid features as our hero and heroine: he looks like Dondi and Bruce Lee reconstituted as a 12-year-old elf, she like Mia Farrow after too much plastic surgery). Welcome to Jim Henson's world of wonders, a fantasy pastiche without a single human in it. Henson and his gifted designer, Brian Froud (of ``Faeries'' fame), run some wild visions across the screen, but even young kids will quickly recognize the story line as a meltdown of every Mythic Quest from the Greeks to Tolkien to George Lucas. There's an ancient prophecy to be fulfilled and a young hero armed with a magical crystal shard who must journey to a dark castle where, at the time of the Great Conjunction, he must save a divided, dying world. Tots of a tender age may be nightmare-prone from this encounter: the reptilian Skeksis, who drain and drink the vital fluids of their victims, don't behave like Muppets, though Henson and codirector Frank Oz make sure that no permanent harm befalls the good guys. What grown-ups will make of this depends on your susceptibility to the genre. As drama, ``The Dark Crystal'' comes fully alive only at its rousing climax, and it's hampered by the Ken Doll blandness of our hero. As a bestiary, however, it is bountiful--a prodigious and amusing parade of things that do much more than go bump in the night. David Ansen [Newsweek reviewer] ------------------------------ Date: 22 December 1982 01:18-EST From: Steven A. Swernofsky Subject: The Dark Crystal (movie) I watched The Dark Crystal last Friday, its release date in the L.A. area. The Muppets are interesting, and nice to watch (yes, even the bad guys), but the story leaves much to be desired. The plot is too simple, too contrived, too haphazard. The Gelflings (the only humanoids and presumably the hero and heroine) are silly and hard to identify with. If you're into fantasy movies in a big way, or you're really interested by good animation, see this movie. Otherwise, you may be in for a slight disappointment, as it's too thin to make a story worth repeating. -- Steve ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 23-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #115 *** EOOH *** Date: Thursday, December 23, 1982 4:10AM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #115 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 23 Dec 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 115 Today's Topics: Authors - Brunner's style Themes - shrinking Books - Bakka bookstore, Snyder's BLACK AND BLUE MAGIC T.V. - Outer Limits, Kung Fu as SF?, Star Trek, Voyagers, Secret Agent, Land of the Giants Movies - E.T. vs The Day the Earth Stood Still, SW/TESB/ROTJ, Conquest of Space ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Dec 82 14:19:36-EST (Tue) From: David Axler Subject: John Brunner's style In SFL 6:110, Mankins mentions the "collage style" used by John Brunner in "The Sheep Look Up" and "Stand On Zanzibar" (it's also used in "The Jagged Orbit", the middle book of this series. Literarily speaking, this is an intentional steal on Brunner's part from the classic "U.S.A." trilogy by John dos Passos, which uses the same mechanisms to describe the Depression. Brunner's adaptation of this device to sf is quite well done, by the way, but he's not the originator. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Dec 82 14:15:37 EST (Fri) From: Fred Blonder Subject: randomness A good shrinking story: ``A matter of Size'' by Harry Bates in ``Adventures in Time and Space''. I'm not claiming that this is significant, but there are a few similarities between E.T. and Klaatu (from ``The Day the Earth Stood Still''). They both come to Earth, go into hiding, are befriended by a human, sought out and eventually captured by government agents, die, are revived and leave Earth after an emotional parting-scene. Granted, there are even more things different about them, but the similarites are interesting. Another point: if we assume that what Klaatu was doing when he made that short speech inside his ship (``Klaatu imray naruwat . . .'') was communicating with his home planet for help (Aha! another similarity), and Gort used the same instrument after Patricia Neal delivered Klaatu's message, then ``Klaatu barada nikto'' may just mean ``Gort: phone home'' (i.e.: for instructions) ------------------------------ Date: 20 Dec 1982 1214-PST From: CARROLL at USC-ISIF Subject: Items The book Ronen Barzel is looking for is "Black and Blue Magic", by Zilpha Keatley Snyder. * * * In answer to Will Martin's query about "Conquest of Space": This movie has shown at least half a dozen times in the Los Angeles area in the last ten years, so it's not impossible to find, but perhaps difficult. I think it was usually on during a weekday afternoon. The film deals with a flight to Mars to investigate the possibility of colonization ( not clone-ization!). The ship departs from 'The Wheel', the donut-style space station, and drops used fuel tanks during the voyage. I think it was based on an actual design of the time, and was pretty nice. A lot of the film dealt with interpersonal character conflicts, tied into the mission ( I believe the rookie-son accidentally kills the commander- father, so the loyal old-timer becomes mutinous.). There is quite a bit of scientific exposition in the film, but not to the point of being boring. It is laced with action, for example as the crew loses one member to a meteoroid swarm, and runs out of drinking water just before it begins snowing on Mars. They wait for proper juxtaposition of Earth and the red planet ( several months), and then blast homeward, taking with them some flowers that had actually grown in the Martian soil. I think the film reflected some of the scientific thought of the day. It was similar in many ways to Pal's "Destination Moon", being entertaining as well as thought-provoking. * * * There's a new station out in Anaheim, California, airing "Land of the Giants" weekdays at 4, and "Secret Agent" on Saturdays. KDOC, channel 56. * * * Am I the only one who watches "Voyagers!" instead of "60 Minutes"? Does anybody else enjoy this show? It's really quite fun. * * * I submit that Rocket J. Squirrel is the 'other'. He can levitate himself with ease, instantly decrypt secret messages, and mysteriously appear in Bullwinkle's hat. He always relies on his own abilities instead of weapons, and is small and cute like Yoda. You need not be told what the 'J.' stands for. Steve ------------------------------ Date: 21 Dec 82 14:12:14-EST (Tue) From: David Axler Subject: Bakka Address & Info (Re: Newcomer's request for info on Bakka; SFL 107) Bakka is one of the better sf bookstores, with a good selection of new and used material from the US, Canada, Australia, and the UK. They're located at 282 Queen St. West, Toronto M5V 2A1, Ontario, Canada; phone: 416-596-8161. If you're on their mailing list, you receive the "Bakka Bookie Sheet" every so often, which lists what new items they've received, as well as stuff they expect to be out-of-print in the near future. They do mail orders extremely efficiently, and charge a minimal fee for postage and handling. By the way, if you're planning to order stuff from them and live in the US, place your order by phone and bill it to a major credit card like Visa or Mastercharge. It turns out that the currency exchange is then processed at the rate given to banks (= credit card companies), which is several percent less than that which you'll pay if you try to get a money order in Canadian currency. And, when you read their prices, remember that (these days) the Canadian $ is worth about $.85 US. Some things worth picking up that you won't find elsewhere are the group of anthologies edited by John Robert Columbo, an important Canadian fan and literateur. His "Other Canadas" is a superb collection of sf by Canadian writers, and his new "Windigo" is an excellent anthology of stories on the title topic. ------------------------------ Date: 21 Dec 1982 0741-PST From: First at SUMEX-AIM Subject: OUTER LIMITS WOLF 357, the Outer Limits episode referred to by John Krieger, points out some of the basic problems with this series. Let me first say that I think that Outer Limits was one of the best TV series ever, SF or otherwise. Besides the SF themes, the photographic style and moody set designs were more interesting and innovative than many films. Anyway, the WOLF 357 episde, in which a scientist is growing a microcosm of a world in his laboratory, had the potential of being an excellent episde. The implication was that human -like evolution was taking place on the planet surface and the scientist had the ability to view the activities on the planet under a microscope, with the hope of being able to see the Earth's future--a fascinating idea with its obvious Pirandellian overtones (i.e. we could be in a similar situation, under an alien's microscope). Unfortunately, the plot digresses and eventually centers on this mysterious monster which starts terrorizing the scientist and eventually is gotten rid of by destroying the planet, at the moment when the evolutionary scale had caught up to Earth. What a cop out! (Godzilla Ex Machina?!?) Many episodes had similar problems, where interesting SF concepts are overtaken by monsters. I believe the reason for this reflects the continuing SF-LOVERS discussion about SF on TV--the show aired on ABC-TV (still the sleaziest of the networks) and they required the producers of Outer Limits to have a "monster a week". Within that ridiculous constraint, it is to the producers' credit that the show was a good as it was. My favorite episode: "Controlled Experiment", with Carroll O'Connor as a martian spy doing a controlled experiment to try to find out the underlying motivations behind violence --no monsters in this one! --Michael (FIRST@SUMEX-AIM, FIRST@NLM-MCS) [I'm a long-time fan of Outer Limits and have collected 24 hours of the best episodes on video-tape, uncut. I didn't save the episode you mention, WOLF 357, because I didn't think it was very good. Yes, the monster criticism is valid, but often the make-up was so amazing that a monster-a-week could almost be forgiven. And often the quality of the direction, atmosphere, and acting were very impressive. I've always held the opinion that Outer Limits (at least the first season) was second only in production quality to The Prisoner as speculative video-fiction, and far ahead of Twlight Zone, Star Trek, etc. --Stuart] ------------------------------ Date: 20 Dec 1982 1827-PST Subject: Kung Fu TV series as SF From: Mike Leavitt The last thing the list needs now is a new topic, but . . . . I wonder if anyone has had the same reaction to the old David Carradine series Kung Fu that I have.. I get the same kind of lift from watching old episodes that I get from watching a few of the old STs, and I don't exactly know why. Last week I saw a repeat that began to give me some insight, in that Caine acted a bit more like a Superman than he usually does, and I made that particular connection. There are very definite echoes of some Van Vogt. Has anyone else had similar reactions? Mike ------------------------------ Date: 19 Dec 1982 0856-PST From: Henry W. Miller Subject: Kirk, etc Has anyone out there see William Shatner's new show, "T. J. Hooker"? Well, it is another cop show, but Shatner pulls it off well.. He is an old vetren of the the force, (no, no, not that FORCE...) who spends part of his time with the trainees. As a cop, he is a no-nonsense type of guy. As a human being, he is full of foiables, as are we all. I like the show. At last Shatner has another outlet so diaplay his true acting ability other than Star Trek remakes. (If you don't believe the man can act, then you didn't see "The Wrath of Kahn". It took me six times to see that movie before I didn't cry at Spock's funeral..) Interesting point: in one of the earlier episodes of "Hooker", Vic Tayback, (Mel on "Alice", better known as JoJo Kracko in "A Piece of the Action") made a guest appearance. Now, if they could get Nimoy as a guest star. Wow BUT, What a trip, if in addition to Nimoy, they got DeForrest Kelly, Jimmy Doohan, Walter Koenig, George Takaei, Nichelle Nichols and Majel Barrett in a show. Even playing bit parts, it would blow alot of folks away. It would probably blow "Hooker" into the top 10 at least for a couple of weeks. Hooker is alot like Kirk. Maybe that is why Shatner is so good at playing "autocratic leaders". They both go by the book, until it suits them to do otherwise. It is truly a trip here i the Bay Area, watching Star Trek at 7:00 PM, then watching Hooker from 8:00 to 9:00. Same man, but 15 years later. Ya'know, he's not getting older; he's getting better. -HWM [Supposedly Nimoy *will* guest star on a T.J. Hooker episode. They showed a brief clip. He and Shatner will be antagonists. --Stuart] ------------------------------ Date: 14 Dec 82 12:58:20-PST (Tue) From: harpo!ihnp4!ihuxx!marks at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: The Emperor I'm not surprised that the credits showed the Emperor played by someone else. I seem to recall that Alec Guiness died sometime after SW was filmed. Am I all wet or what? Mark Beckner Bell Labs ------------------------------ Date: 14 Dec 82 16:54:19-PST (Tue) From: harpo!npoiv!hou5f!hou5d!hou5a!hou5e!jjm at Ucb-C70 Subject: The Emperor in The Empire Strikes Back The Emperor in TESB was played by an English actor named Clive Reville (sp?). I have seen him in other movies, so this is not a fake name. Despite a previous news item, Alec Guiness is not dead. (Anyone who saw the recent TV movie "Smiley's People" knows that.) Jim McParland BTL - Holmdel hou5e!jjm ------------------------------ Date: 22 Dec 1982 (Wednesday) 2347-EDT From: SPEAR at Wharton-10 (Daniel Spear) Subject: Voice of the Emperor Clive Revill (People were looking at me funny when they saw me take notes at the movie theatre, but damned if I can remember that name.) Dan ------------------------------ Date: 20 Dec 82 09:41:31 EST (Mon) From: Craig Stanfill Subject: Luke's Light Sabre If Han Solo's attitude towards Light Sabres is indicitave of the general sentiment towards the weapon, I expect Luke can pick one up at a flea market or third hand junk shop for a few credits. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Dec 82 10:51:45 EST (Mon) From: Rene Steiner Subject: more decompression and luke's hand 1) Well, the problem of explosive decompression was solved once and for all in 'Airplane II: the Sequel'. Kent McCord and the other guy (sorry, don't remember his name) were sucked out of the airlock and danced a last waltz together to the tune of 'Blue Danube'. Neither looked exploded or messy in any way. So there you have it. Of course, they also had air on the moon ... 2) I thought that Luke would be killed in RoTJ even before Lucas mentioned 'the [one] survivor' of the second (current) trilogy. There are elements of Norse mythology in the Star Wars movies. For instance, in 'The Beowulf', Beowulf has three encounters with evil forces. The first, with Grendel, he wins handily, and there is wide celebration. The second, with Grendel's dam, he barely wins with outside help (the sudden appearance of a magical sword). The third, with the dragon, he barely kills with the help of his one faithful retainer, but he is mortally wounded, and dies. Also, in the first, Grendel comes to his world. He seeks out Grendel's dam in her world, and almost dies. Anyway, Lucas seems to be in to mythological stories. There is also Tyr, who lost his hand to the wolf Fenrir. Losing a hand sometimes symbolizes losing one's humanity. Tolkien used mythology heavily in his tragic stories - Morgoth and (I think) Beren, and of course Frodo loses a finger. Also (one more) people who learn about themselves, who become whole through their experiences, tend to die in the Heroic Tradition. Boromir, Beowulf, and Frodo (who dies for all intents and purposes), and Spock, and others (sorry, it's been over a year since my Northern Mythology course - I don't remember all the characters - any mythology buffs out there?). Anyway, the point of my rather rambling discourse is that when the third movie comes out, there are sure to be lots of mythological roots to be found in the trilogy (and in the others as well). Anyway. - rene ------------------------------ Date: 21 Dec 82 16:21:21 EST (Tue) From: Speaker-To-Animals Subject: Light Saber Power Source. The Light Saber is NOT powered by the force. In the book, Luke examines the Light Saber Obi-Wan gives him and notes that the rating on the power cell is the largest he has ever seen on a device this size. Clearly the Light Saber needs batteries. - Speaker ------------------------------ Date: 20 Dec 82 14:08:15 EST (Mon) From: Rene Steiner Subject: detection of good and evil in the Force Ah, but Good CAN be detected - Darth Vader detected Obi-wan on the Death Star ("I feel a presence in the force, someone I have not detected since...." not an exact quote, but you get the idea.) - rene ------------------------------ Date: 15 Dec 82 18:32:41-PST (Wed) From: decvax!utzoo!watmath!bstempleton at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: Food for thought...........TESB, the "other, etc. I think the force is with Han Solo, too - although he's not the other. I should point out however that Han did NOT hit Darth Vader in the death star battle. He hit Vader's wingman, and that ship went out of control and crashed into Vader's ship. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 23-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #116 *** EOOH *** Date: Thursday, December 23, 1982 10:40PM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #116 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 24 Dec 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 116 Today's Topics: Query - sex change story Books - bookstores Misc - puppets, Ernie Kovacs, Filk Movies - Fantastic Voyage, SW/TESB/ROTJ, Dark Crystal, E.T, The Day the Earth Stood Still ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 23 Dec 1982 09:21 PST From: GMeredith.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #114 The subject of sex change in science fiction reminded me of a short story [or short novel (novelette? novella?)] concerning a girl who has an illegitmate child, who goes to an orphanage and grows up to be a girl who has an illegitimate child and then being morphaditic, loses her female genitalia and developes her male genitals, becomes a time travel agent who goes back to have a sexual interlude with the girl who had the illigitimate child and then lost her female genitalia, becoming his/her own mother/father/daughter... The above paragraph is a result of the fact that I'm not sure where to break in on a paradox of this sort. At any rate, I've been trying to remember author and title and source, with negative results. (Bet I'm not the only science fiction reader who's done a mental inventory, at 1 a.m., of items read, trying to come up with this kind of info.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu 23 Dec 82 19:27:11-EST From: Bob Krovetz Subject: good bookstores and "the other" re: good sf bookstores Chaos Unlimited is the best used SF bookstore I know of in the D.C. area. It is located a few blocks south of chevy chase circle at 3809 McKinley St. (phone: 202-244-2710). Despite the title the shelves are very organized (alphabetically by author). The stock consists entirely of SF/fantasy and mysteries. re: "the other" Since the other will be featured in the next series of SW movies (especially SW3, cf: the excerpt of the Rolling Stone interview with Lucas in SF-LOVERS V6 #92), has anyone considered that "the other" might be another muppet-like character (ala Yoda)? After all, SW3 isn't for another 6 years yet and a lot could happen to a human actor over that period. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Dec 1982 1534-EST From: DAVID.LEWIN Subject: Science Fiction puppets/Ernie Kovacs On one of the late Ernie Kovacs' early programs (in the late 50s or early 60s) there was a continuing puppet segment with a science fiction theme, using household utensils as characters. As I remember, the hero was a funnel who was at one point battling the menace of the "Sponge Men". Does anyone remember the name of the hero and any more details? (Mention of the sponge men was always accompanied by a gurgling sound.) ------------------------------ Date: 21 Dec 82 14:16:05-EST (Tue) From: David Axler Subject: "Filk" Minor correction -- "Filk" is not short for 'filksing', but rather for 'filksOng'. The term arose, it's claimed (by Dick Eney's "Fancyclopedia"), to describe "...fannish songs in the ilk of folksongs...", which covers a lot of territory. "Filksinging" is the act of singing filksongs, while a "filksing" is the event at which filksinging occurs as the main activity, since its a thing found all over at many conventions -- in the corridors, at parties, and (once in a while) in the rooms that were specifically set aside for it.... ------------------------------ Date: 22 Dec 1982 15:32:32 CST (Wednesday) From: Mike Meyer Subject: Changes in the Enterprise A while back, somebody pointed out that the Enterprise seemed to have changed a great deal from the series to TMP to TWOK. `The Menagerie' just ran yesterday, and we got to see pictures of the Enterprise `13 years ago.' It seems to have changed in that time span, also: the captains chair wasn't elevated, the captains cabin was noticable different (more curves, etc), and the crew was only 203 people. Not to mention those goosenecked lamps that went away shortly after the first few episodes... Subject: Funny guys in white armor. Can anyone remeber an instance where the white armor worm by the Empire's stormtroopers did any good? Why do they still have it? Tony ------------------------------ Date: 15 Dec 82 14:15:14-EST (Wed) From: J C Patilla Subject: ROTJ: planetfall on Endor THe oldest source of the name Endor that I know of is the reference to the Witch of Endor in the Old Testament, in (I believe) the Book of Kings. She was a seer and one of the kings of Israel (Saul ?) visited her to receive her prophesies. remain in light, jcpatilla ------------------------------ Date: 20 Dec 1982 2220-EST From: Mike First Subject: SW VII, VIII and IX Whose idea was it to speculate on SW VII, VII and IX? Isn't the month of speculation over RotJ enough? Anyway, for those diehards, it is my understanding that NONE of the characters in the middle trilogy will be carried over to the last trilogy (except maybe Yoda or the Emporer). The last trilogy is expected to take place considerably later in time so it is quite possible that all ends can be nicely tied up in RotJ without any need for more unsolved questions. Also, isn't it true that the last trilogy will only be produced after the first trilogy is completed, making the release date of SW VII May 1991. Will Lucas (or anybody else) really care anymore? --Michael (FIRST@NLM-MCS) ------------------------------ Date: 16 Dec 82 15:26:20-PST (Thu) From: decvax!cwruecmp!ccc at Ucb-C70 Subject: Star Wars, Empire, RotJ, etc. :-) >From: Clayton M. Elwell [...!decvax!cwruecmp!ccc] "Previews, Plotlines, Spoilers, Inside Knowledge... A true Jedi craves not these things..." ------------------------------ Date: 23 December 1982 21:50-EST (Thursday) From: Matthew J Lecin Subject: The Emperor in The Empire Strikes Back Reply-to: Lecin@Rutgers Clive Revill is the VOICE of the emperor... supposedly the face was some 86 year old Californian grandmother... {Mijjil} ------------------------------ Date: 22 Dec 1982 2352-EST From: Hobbit Subject: Dark Crystal I enjoyed DC also, primarily for the visual effects. I mean, there is just so much to *look* at. The slow pan around the swamp where Jen meets Kira shows props that must have taken days to set up, just for a few seconds of film, and it all *moves* and does *weird* things. Everything has lots of detail. It was a bit like Bladerunner - if you can bear with a somewhat lacking plot, it is a visual feast. I intend to go see it again just to spot what I missed the first time. _H* ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 19 December 1982 01:44-EST From: Vince Fuller Subject: light saber Date: 13 Dec 82 13:02:42-PST (Mon) From: avsdS.steve at, Ucb-C70 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC Re: light saber . . . Current military customs usually provide for the wearing of the dress sword only on special occasions. How practicle would a sword (or even a light saber) be in stopping an opponent at 50 yards? I believe that a light saber actually could be useful at least for defending one's self at 50 yards. Given that the majority of weapons in use are of the enery/blaster type shown in SW, and given the ability of a Jedi (or someone with at least Vader's mastery of the force) to predict weapon shots (cf. Vader's ability to block Solo's blaster shots in TESB), a light saber can probably be used to parry or block shots. ------------------------------ Date: Mon Dec 20 12:20:28 1982 From: decvax!duke!ndd@Berkeley Subject: SW, TESB, etc., ad nauseum 'Colon Wars' may not be the correct term for the conflict of the past in Star Wars, et. al., but it is definitely fitting for this b--- s--- discussion on the digest. Ned 'who cares' Danieley duke!ndd ------------------------------ Date: 15 Dec 1982 21:24:54 EST (Wednesday) From: Ben Littauer Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #105 I don't quite understand all the foofraw about the light sabers. My understanding of the situation was that the light saber is an outmoded weapon -- though it still might be considered extremely powerful in the right (or wromg) hands. Somethig like a sword is today. Thus, although it might be a little difficult to find a lioght saber in your corner weapons shop, it is not as if only a Jedi Knight is allowed/able to have one. From the discussion so far one would have the impression that the light saber is some kind of mystical weapon... -ben- ------------------------------ Date: 19 Dec 1982 1334-PST From: Lynn Gold Subject: Re-Release of "The Empire Strikes Back" I remember the folks from Lucasfilms saying that they were going to re-release it around Christmastime. Does anyone remember the exact date? I believe it was the 23rd or 24th (i.e., any day now), and I very BADLY want to see it when it comes out on the first night. Thanks, Lynn FIGMO@KESTREL ------------------------------ Date: 23 Dec 82 15:58:35 EST (Thu) From: Fred Blonder Subject: Similarity between ``E.T.'' and ``The Day the Earth Stood Subject: Still'' It seems that these two movies have several plot details in common. Consider: both movies are about an alien who comes to Earth and goes into hiding from government agents. The aliens are each befriended by a young boy and his widowed/divorced mother. They each borrow something from the boy to use to communicate with their ship. They both have remarkable healing powers and can manipulate objects in mysterious ways. They both are eventually captured by the government agents and die, but are revived shortly thereafter as the result of a message delivered with the aid of their human friends, where the delivery of the message is a critical point in the plot. They both are returned to their ships, and return safely to space after an emotional farewell scene. The big difference between the movies is that Klaatu and E.T. came to Earth for entirely different reasons. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Dec 82 19:50:50 EST (Wed) From: speaker.umcp-cs at UDel-Relay Subject: Correction to your correction of your correction of... Date: 30 Nov 1982 8:18:35 EST (Tuesday) From: Drew M. Powles Subject: childhood's end...possibly a spoiler to Don Voreck: correction on the correction of your correction ,etc. Read your book again.......They do not leave in spaceships. The centaur creatures leave the earth after they have done their part: Centaurs? Where'd you get centaurs? Clarke describes the Overlords as resembling Satan. That way he can explain man's depiction of Satan and his minions as race memorys... except the traumatic memory of the Overlords rippled back in time, not forward. - Speaker ------------------------------ Date: 14 Dec 82 8:10:21-PST (Tue) From: decvax!decwrl!sun!megatest!fortune!dsd!atd!avsdS.steve at From: Ucb-C70 Subject: re: SW What is unusual about seeing Star Wars more than once? I saw it twice when it first came out, shipped out on WESTPAC and saw it again when we stopped in Pearl Harbor, came back after a year and saw it again in San Francidsco, went up to Seattle and saw it again with Close Encounters (actuually, we walked out of one theater and into another). Since then I've aquired a cassette of it and play it when my three-year old gets on his SW kick (he even had a Boba Fett before I knew who Boba Fett was!!). ------------------------------ Date: 16 Dec 1982 1727-EST From: Tony
  • Subject: Philosophy behind the Force... I've always thought that the force was a derivative of Tai Chi. I'm no expert, but supposedly, the Chi permeates all things, and there is a balance of Chi throughout nature. When Chi is out of balance, you flow with the imbalance to create a new balance. It is a form of exercise in China, and, secondarily, a means of self defense. Is there anyone out there who knows some more on this? Tony ;-) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 26-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #117 *** EOOH *** Date: Sunday, December 26, 1982 6:39AM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #117 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 26 Dec 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 117 Today's Topics: Misc - MIT archives, review of SFL Stories - Gauger's The Vacuum-Packed Picnic, Heinlein's All You Zombies T.V. - Lost in Space, Invaders, Star Trek Movies - SW/TESB/ROTJ Humor - HHGttN #3 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 15 Dec 1982 0511-EST From: TYG at MIT-OZ at MIT-MC Subject: New Archives Coming soon! To a branch of the MIT SF Society (MITSFS) near me! The hardcopy of the SF-L archives! Yep, i'm assembling a formatted version of the archives to be left in the special reserve section of the MITSFS. Based on my copious spare time :-) i'm projecting that volumes 5 and 6 (Jan through Nov 1982) will be available by this Monday the 20th, with more to follow assuming the ARPAnet doesn't self-destruct on Jan. 1. If anyone is interested in FTPing scribe formatted files of the archives, send mail to me and i'll let you know when they are complete. Finally, pseudo-simultaneous with the hardcopying, i'm trying to create edited versions of the archives, deleting temporal based info (HHGttG is on at 7pm Tuesday in Nome, Alaska), near identical submissions, and ordering by subject then date, as opposed to the archive date then subject. Just imagine; all the Pac-Man and Raiders puns in one file! I'll notify the net when these are finished. tom galloway TYG@MIT-MC TYG.MIT-OZ@MIT-MC decvax!genradbo!mitccc!tyg ------------------------------ Date: 22 Dec 1982 15:36:15 CST (Wednesday) From: Mike Meyer Subject: Review of SFL First, I would like to thank our moderator for putting the SW messages [nearly] at the end of the list. This makes it easy to interrupt out of them. Second, I'd like to second (third? nthed?) the notion of creating a separate list for SW/* - or possibly a more general movie list, to which all those [*** censored by net, but included three lines of imaginative exploration of interbeing relationships & family trees ***] AP/UPI bulletins can go. (I will resist the temptation to suggest a name for that list...) I mean, none of the SW/movie reviews schlock rightly belongs in a discussion of Speculative Fiction! With asbestos ready, From: Pettit at PARC-MAXC I can recall a story about a couple "walking" a bubble-tent back to a moon base after a picnic in the nude, and getting a bad sunburn in the process. I don't remember the name or author. This was ``The Vacuum-Packed Picnic'' by Rick Gauger, published in the September '79 ``OMNI'' (page 94). ------------------------------ Date: 24 December 1982 08:37-EST (Friday) From: Matthew J Lecin Subject: sex change (SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #114) (GMeredith.ES at Subject: PARC-MAXC) Reply-to: Lecin@Rutgers I think it is obvious you are talking about "All You Zombies" by Robert Heinlein. This short story can be found in a collection of stories called "The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag", which I believe is also known as "6 X H"... {Mijjil} ------------------------------ Date: 22 December 1982 01:07-EST From: Greg Skinner Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #105 Does anyone out there possess, or know of, a Lost in Space trivia book? In addition, does anyone out there have a listing of all the Lost in Space episodes? ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 24 December 1982 15:31-EST From: RP at SCRC-TENEX Subject: "Invaders" TV series query I always enjoyed this series and thought the suspense and interest was maintained despite the predictable plots. However, I believe that David Vincent does "convince a disbelieving world that the nightmare has already begun". I can remember several episodes where others learn the 'truth' and my impression is that David is successful. Can anyone back me up? ------------------------------ Date: 14 Dec 1982 19:51-PST From: txr%usc-cse@USC-ECL Subject: Re: Plot "defect" in City on the Edge of Forever Reply-to: txr@USC-ECL The problem of the tricorder recordings is easily solved with only a little imagination. It's true that when McCoy jumps through the display stops, but does it stop immediately? An extra small fraction of a second could easily account for the extra year or two of history recorded. As far as that goes, there is no guarantee that the history display is strictly linear -- it might track some events for a while and then "back up" to another major thread in the fabric of history. A similar idea explains how they got the alternate histories. The guardian displays not only what the past was but what it might have been. Only one recording need have been made to have *both* alternative pasts in it, one with McCoy and one without. (After all, didn't both "already happen"?) When making the first tricorder recording, and before McCoy jumped, there are already the images of both histories within the guardian, even though only one of them "happened." Didn't the guardian say early on in the episode something like "what was, what will be, what might have been"? Tim ------------------------------ Date: 24-Dec-82 10:00-PST From: ZELLICH at OFFICE-3 Subject: Re: Henry Miller's "Kirk, etc" And, of course, you know that when trying to figure out what "T. J." stands for, the fen immediately came up with "Tiberius James", right? -Rich ------------------------------ Date: 25 December 1982 1717-EST From: Jim Anderson at CMU-CS-A Subject: Knit Picking and Weapons Title this "Annoyed at knit picking." Anyone who knows ANYTHING about military equipment, especially ships or planes , should know that it is extremely common to retrofit such equipment with the latest equipment as it becomes available. The Enterprise is supposed to be overhauled on a regular basis, allowing installation of newer equipment, as wellas permitting Star Fleet to correct any design errors discover since the last overhaul. Also I agree with -ben- and Vaf on the subject of light sabers, it is probably the lack of range and the long training time needed to be proficient with a light saber that keep it from being a more popular weapon. It is similarto the longbow being outmoded by the crossbow because the crossbow was easier tolearn. The defensive abilities of the light saber are probably almost totally useless to some one who has not had extreme amounts of training in the mystical/martial arts, such as the Force. On the armor worn by Storm Troopers I would like to point out that the observation of it being useless is quite wrong. If you watch closely enough you can see that only blast which hit at an oblique angle penetrate the armor, with blasts that hit curved sections being more oftendeflected then blasts which hit flatter areas such as the chest or back. This type of armor is probably made of composite materials, like the armor used on many tanks today. It is probably a lot more efficient, given the superior tech level of the S.W. galaxy. The armor probably has a lot of extra features such as atmosphere control and supply(notice the similarity of the helmet to a modern gas mask),blast and radiation protection,various sensory improvement and extension devices, as well as a radio and other assorted goodies. Also keep in mind that these are "Storm Troopers", the Empires equivelent of the S.S., their mentality would tend toward armor, even if only for the scare value it has. Jim P.s. The light saber is also shown being used to parry blaster shots in the original Star Wars in the scene on the Milenium Falcon where Luke is being instructed in the defensive prospects of the extension of sensory capabilities provided by employing The Force. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Dec 82 20:02:17 EST (Mon) From: Fred Blonder Subject: Re: THE OTHER From: harpo!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!inuxa!claus at Ucb-C70 Have all nine parts of the Star Wars series already been outlined by George Lucas, or is he just making this up as he goes along? Dave Claus BTL/ABI Indy ------------------------------ As I understand it: all nine movies exist as at least a one-page draft which no-one other than Lucas is likely to see unless something nasty happens which would require someone else to take over. ------------------------------ Date: 19 December 1982 02:22-EST (Sunday) From: Matthew J Lecin Subject: HGttG Reply-to: Lecin@Rutgers Just a small trivia point: in the last episode (7) of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (which just aired this week in the NYC area) we meet up with the Golgafrinchans (sp?)... Did anyone besides me recognize their Captain to be the same actor (name escapes me at the moment) who played Mr. Deltoid in "A Clockwork Orange"? {Mijjil} ------------------------------ Date: 26 Dec 1982 0630-PST From: SFL at SRI-CSL Subject: hh 3 ***** sri-unix:net.jokes / grkermit!markm / 12:54 pm Dec 9, 1982 Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net Episode 3 - The Singularans (Arnold Lint and the crew of the Infinity are trying to decide what to do now that they are being faced by the deadly Singularans.) Xaphod: Oh wow, just when we got past the Flamers, we have to run into the 'Singles'. The Illogical drive won't work this time. Rod: No, and neither will evasive actions. They all talk that way! Gillian: What will we do then? Arnold Lint: I'll tell you . . . we're all going to die. Xaphod: Shut your cake-hole! Martin: I tried to tell you this trip would be a real downer, but would you listen? Rod: Quiet! Xaphod: I guess we should see what they want. (Xaphod switches on the two way video telecommunicator and RadaRange. The face of the Singularan captain appears on the screen. He is a normal human wearing a T-shirt which says: "Have you ever really listened to Manilow?" He is also sporting glow in the dark pants and 10 pounds of silver and gold chains arount his neck.) Singularan: Hey, like I'm Dirk Thawtphull. We were cruising by and saw your node. Interested in some meaningful relationships, free from the moral depravity that otherwise infects the net. Xaphod: Well, I kind of like depravity. Rod: Yah, me too. Dirk: Wow, you'd love our S & M encounter group then, fershure! Arnold Lint: Your what? Dirk: S & M encounter group. We get together twice a week and exchange recipes and beatings. Arnold Lint: How could a group like that command such a strong node? Xaphod: Well, the sudden popularity of Jogging induced widespread adoption of the principles of Single-ism. The subsequent rise of the sport of 'Joggering' reduced the numbers of Singularans to normal size. It appears that they may be making a come back though. [The "Hitch Hikers Guide to the Net" defines 'Joggering' as a sport originated in Australia to combat the sudden drop in productivity caused by having everybody jogging. Australian champion Bruce Karnage describes the sport: "Well, there is a different way of catching both male and female joggers. If it's a male, you flush him out into the open with cigarette smoke, then chase him down in your 4 x 4 Land Rover. When he's tired, bump him with the fender to stun him momentarily. Then get out and with your driver pick him up by all fours and run him head-first into the side of the truck. If it's a female, bait a likely spot with designer jogging wear and then wait for a flock to arrive. When one becomes interested, sneak up behind her, very quietly. Then when you are about two feet away, and you can see the sun dancing on her richly tanned flesh carressing her well toned figure into a visual symphony of delight, split her skull with a handy two-by-four. It's a lovely sport!" The sport later became known as 'Walkmaning'.] Rod: We were on our way to Netrothea to pick up some ... uh ... fuel, yah that's it. Dirk: Well, we've got plenty of fuel, come on over and we'll let you have it. Xaphod: No, it's OK. Dirk: I insist! (The Singularan ship lets out a pink and purple polka-dot ray that engulfs the Infinity. Arnold Lint and company find themselves in a room on the Singularan ship. It is decorated right out off the floor of a K-Mart. K-Tel's "Feelings" album is playing "You light up my existence" in the background, on the ceiling is a gigantic mirror, and in one corner is a gigantic mood-bean-bag chair.) Gillian: How awful! Martin: Actually, I kind of like it, in a depressing sort of way. Rod: Quiet. Arnold Lint: Where are we. Dirk: You're aboard the Singularan vessel "Sincerity". You will remain here until you learn to develop meaningful relationships over the Net. Meaningful relationships based on honesty, truth, and having nothing to do with physical appearance. Relationships which will grow as you and your partner, or partners, share, or don't share, things you have, or don't have, in common. You will learn how to have every other sentence include the words 'special' or 'meaningful relationship'. Xaphod: If he says "meaningful relationship" once more I'll have to pray to the porcellan buddha. Rod: Sickening, isn't it. Dirk: Right, enough of this. Wait here and we'll start programming you for meaningful relationships. (Xaphod bends over a nearby table and vomits, the 12" CRT on his shoulder starts scrolling "Uuuggghhh") Gillian: What did you mean about "programming" us? Dirk: We'll have to make you compatible with the environment and take away all your inhibitions when discussing your personal life on the Net. You'll be subjected to countless sessions watching repeats of "The Dating Game", "The Newlywed Game", and "Celebrity Wife Swapping". And that's only Stage 1! [The "Hitch Hikers Guide to the Net" points out that the three old earth TV shows just mentioned were actually the basis for a huge inter-conglomerate stock monopolizing sceme started by The Phone Company. The questions asked on these shows were actually coded messages issued by The Phone Company to the conglomerates it was working with. These messages told the associated conglomerates about which stocks to buy based on information gained by The Phone Company by listening in on the phones of importanat companies. The client corporations paid The Phone Company 1 million dollars for each such message. The seemingly idiotic contestants were, more often than not, government agents trying to break The Phone Company's code. Chuck Barris, the originator of the shows, was later found to be a financial genius, rivaled only by Howard Hughes.] Rod: We gotta get put of here! Xaphod: Yah. Rod: You know what really gets Singularans put off? Rudeness and crudeness! Arnold Lint: What? Rod: Rudeness, if we act real crude and rude, they'll beg us to leave! Xaphod: Great, let's try it! (Dirk returns with three gorgeous women and one well built female model andriod.) Rod: (To the first girl) Wow, look at that pair! Xaphod: (To the second girl) That's a lovely grab! Rod: (To the third girl) OK love, drop 'em! Martin: (To the female android) I wave my private parts toward approximate vector coordinates. Gillian: (To Dirk) Say Dirk, if you get some Saran-Wrap and chicken wire, I'll get the honey and the plunger. Dirk: Get out of here you disgusting filthly maladjusted perverts! (The three women and one andriod exit with great haste. The crew of the Infinity is beamed back to their node.) Dirk: Good riddens. Put on the flip side of "Feelings" and pass the cheese dip. It's their loss, for only we know what true meaningful relationships are. Only we know the feeling of wholeness that comes from showing, or not showing, what one feels, or doesn't feel, with someone special we care about. We aren't hung up on physical things, we are spiritualists. At least, that's what we tell everyone else. Xaphod: Right, now on to Netrothea, nothing can stop us now. ******************** End Of Part 3 ******************** Will the crew of the Infinity reach Netrothea, or will Nothing stop them? For the answers to this, and other useless questions . . . Tune in next time . . . same Net-time . . . same Net-channel. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 28-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #118 *** EOOH *** Date: Tuesday, December 28, 1982 5:45AM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #118 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 28 Dec 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 118 Today's Topics: Books - J. Lieber's BEYOND REJECTION Query - F. Lieber's doings Misc - Harper's attack Movies - The Dark Cystal, SW/TESB/ROTJ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 17 Dec 82 16:33:58-PST (Fri) From: decvax!yale-com!brunix!rb at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: misc. I read BEYOND REJECTION a while back. It's entertaining, but nothing stupendous. I didn't find it very mind-expanding. Ronen ------------------------------ Date: 23 Dec 82 10:12:38-PST (Thu) From: decvax!utzoo!utcsrgv!kramer at Ucb-C70 Subject: Fritz Lieber Does any one know what, if anything, Fritz Lieber has been writing recently? ------------------------------ Date: 17 Dec 82 9:48:00-PST (Fri) From: harpo!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!pur-ee!CSvax.Pucc-H.Physics.retief at From: Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: SF attacked in December Harper"s magazine Mr. Arny Klein is most obviously a BIG jerk and I doubt he has ever read a complete SF book (instead of reading the inside jacket.) There really isn't much to flame about, because anyone who has read SF can easily see that Mr. Klein a big mouth and, surely, has big shoes to stick in it. Dwight ------------------------------ Date: 17 Dec 82 18:04:46-PST (Fri) From: harpo!floyd!trb at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: SF attacked in December Harper"s magazine It is with great fear that I post this message, but I have always let my feelings on non-asinine issues be known, so... I find the childish reactions (over this medium) to the Harpers article laughable. If the guy was accurate then he was accurate. If he was inaccurate then he was inaccurate. But SF fandom must rear its macho head in defense of the wrongs (right or wrong) that this fellow has committed. I am not an SF fanatic, and I am not a Harpers reader. I have read a small bit of SF, and I have found the classic works satisfying and the trash disappointing. I see that there are many SF fans who chew through SF pulp as though it was their sole subsistence. I see people involved in SF who appear every bit as addicted to it as others are addicted to drugs and alcohol. I'm not saying that all SF is trash, but I AM saying that much SF is trash, much of any literary genre is trash. Trouble is that the really hungry SF fiends buy and defend this trash, and when someone attacks the mass of SF work as a whole, they get offended, rather than either recognizing the attacker as ignorant or separating the wheat from the chaff. [Here it comes...] I have met SF fans who seemed to have no connection to the real world. I find that sad. My God. I fully expect to have three-headed monsters from outer space burning effigies on my lawn by morning; that's the price I gotta pay. Andy Tannenbaum Bell Labs Whippany, NJ (201) 386-6491 ------------------------------ Date: 19 Dec 82 11:17:26-PST (Sun) From: harpo!npoiv!alice!mhtsa!eagle!mhuxt!mhuxi!macrev at Ucb-C70 Subject: Thoughts on trb, Harper's, and SF Andy makes some good points -- I doubt that he'll get many flames, but who knows (looked out at your front lawn lately, Andy?). But he's not telling most of us anything we haven't already thought through many times. Most SF IS something less than literature (I hesitate to say trash -- it's no more trash than most of the other popular fiction on the racks). And maybe our response to the Harper's article was more than it deserved. But why is it that of all the popular genres, SF is the one usually singled out for attacks like the one in Harper's? When was the last time any of you saw mysteries, or westerns, or spy thrillers taken to task? Science fiction is a type of popular fiction, no more, no less. People usually read for pleasure and exscape, and their choice of genre is a personal one. In other words, what I read is my business -- why should it bother someone else? Go ahead and read your westerns, but don't thumb your nose at my science fiction. I've been reading SF for twenty-five years. I began by "chewing through SF pulp," as I'm sure a lot of others did. As SF became more and more popular, its quality began to suffer (my opinion). Now I'm a more careful reader, and as often as not I'll come away from a bookstore with something other than SF -- for example, I just finished John Irving's "Hotel New Hampshire." My point here is that I believe most of us who read and enjoy SF have both feet firmly planted on this planet. This leads me to what I consider an important distinction. There are SF "readers," and there are SF "fans." I have to state here that this is a personal opinion, and I expect flames. Readers are those who have strong feelings about what SF is and should be, and who select their reading carefully. SF fans are those who cling to the "popular" bandwagon, adopting as their own everything given the "SF" label by people who don't know what SF is. Fans engage in endless discussions of movies like Star Wars and Star Trek II. They have "tribbles" in a prominent place on their desk. I have to compare fans to those people who buy the latest in ski wear and hang around the ski lodges without ever putting on a pair of skis. I like net.sf-lovers, and I tune in every chance I get. The SW discussions don't bother me -- I can always type "n," and I do so regularly. I WOULD like to see more reviews of books, and more discussion of SF as a literary genre. Maybe I can start some now. There were three SF novels on the NY Times best seller list last week. Anybody know what they were? Any reviews? ------------------------------ Date: 19 Dec 82 3:32:12-PST (Sun) From: harpo!ihnp4!ihuxr!cjh at Ucb-C70 Subject: RE:Harpers My response to people who don't like what I read or do is a general "Why should I care what YOU think ?". If they have a good (logical) reason then I'll consider it, if not (just their personal opinion) then I tell them to use 20 cents and call someone who cares. If someone doesn't think (a relative term) science fiction is worth while because they possibly don't understand it, they should consider the average person who doesn't know anything about computers and considers users manuals a waste of time. C . J. Holzwarth ihuxr!cjh ------------------------------ Date: 21 Dec 82 11:38:51-PST (Tue) From: decvax!genradbo!mitccc!jmturn at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: SF attacked in December Harper"s magazine Of course most SF is trash. Sturgeon's Law states that 90% of *anything* is trash. What is so irritating about the Harper's article is not that the author says "Some SF is trash", but "All SF is trash". If he had said "All 19th century Victorian novels are trash", I'd be just as mad (and I hate 19th century Victorian novels!) This kind of violent outlash has an unfortunate progression. 1) X is trash 2) People who read trash are stupid 3) People who read X are stupid 4) People who are stupid...etc Therefore, I make the following statement: Harper's is trash! James ------------------------------ Date: 22 Dec 82 7:28:08-PST (Wed) From: decvax!decwrl!sun!megatest!fortune!wdl1!jrb at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: SF attacked in December Harper"s magazine Remember Sturgeon's Law: 1. 90% of Science Fiction is shit 2. 90% of everything is shit Still true to-day (although I'm sometimes inclined to think its more like 95%). John R Blaker ...!fortune!wdl1!jrb ------------------------------ Date: 24 Dec 82 22:35:37-PST (Fri) From: hplabs!intelqa!omsvax!bc at Ucb-C70 Subject: Praise for "The Dark Crystal" I've heard in the last few days that The Dark Crystal is not getting good promotion because the distributer doesn't know how to promote it, and reviewers are giving it lukewarm (at best) reviews because they don't know how to categorize it. So I thought I would proselytize for the movie a little, hoping that a word of mouth campaign of promotion would bring some people into the theaters, and help pay back the people who made this movie. If its not obvious already, I'll spell it out: I THINK THE DARK CRYSTAL IS AN EXCELLENT MOVIE !!! If you enjoy puppetry, fantasy, or visual beauty in movies, I think you will agree with me. If you go into the theater expecting comedy, the Muppets, or Disney cuteness, you will be disappointed however. The Dark Crystal is not a children's story (though my two sons thoroughly enjoyed it, and want to see it again) nor is it sword and sorcery of the Mighty Thews the Barbarian school. It is a Tolkienesque fantasy, with a good bit of violence (not very graphic, but violence nonetheless), without a single human character. As far as I could see, there wasn't a single animal or sentient creature in the movie which was not a puppet of some sort, and it seemed that most of the plants were puppets too. The movie is a masterpiece of technique, as one might expect of Jim Hensen's puppeteers, and Industrial Light and Magic's special effects wizards (the term fits well here). Moreover, it is visually striking, thanks largely to Brian Froud's overall design, and one of the best jobs of color coordination I have seen in a movie. The plot is stock: the quest to find and use the magical item which will end the reign of evil; nonetheless, the story carried my interest, and the ending, though not a vast surprise, was satisfying. A word of advice: don't wait for The Dark Crystal to get to a cheap theater with a small screen, or for the cable TV systems to pick it up. See it in wide screen, while the distribution prints are still in good shape. The visuals are worth it. Bruce Cohen Intel ...{pur-ee,hplabs}!intelqa!omsvax!bc ------------------------------ Date: 13 Dec 82 10:37:43-PST (Mon) From: teklabs!tektronix!rich at Ucb-C70 Subject: Light Sabers What's with all this "where does he get his LS" stuff? Surely, in a society that can produce blasters and Death Stars, making a simple light saber can be no trick. Granted, they "are rare." Big deal. Swords are not all that common in a society that uses M16s in battle, so why are we debating that Darth can't have a LS if Luke has his father's? Note the color of the light, also. OB1's and Luke's have this really "pure" blue-white color, while DV's is a very evil dirty red. Does this imply that the light saber is a mirror of the soul, or simply that DV's was made at a different time or place than the others? Rich Amber ------------------------------ Date: 20 Dec 82 14:24:01-PST (Mon) From: decvax!utzoo!laura at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: SW-IV & -V I went and saw SW4 and SW5 again too. LUCAS is UNFAIR to WOOKIES and WOMEN!! There are no female fighter-pilots, or Jedi, or officers of the Empire or even (as far as we know) storm troopers. The rebels had one female communications officer in TESB, though. In the triumphant procession at the end of SW Chewie, Han, and Luke march up in front of the rebel assembly ... but only Han and Luke receive medals. Drat! Is it against the Chewie's religion to wear anything besides that silver ammo-belt? (which may not even be an ammo belt?). Oh I forgot -- you get one shot of what is probably shoes on Chewie in TESB. I have finally discovered why I *much prefer* SW to TESB (contrary to popular opinion). In SW the characters are often impetuous and conceited, but in TESB, even with time to think they act *STUPIDLY*. Consider. Luke is in a cave with an abomknable snowman, miles and miles away from the base, and night is falling. What would you do? Start *walking* home? or kill the snow beast (or drive him away) with your light saber, and stay sheltered in the warm cave until morning? I know what *I* would do.... Han has survived a night outdoors on Hoth-moon. Now he wants to go out and check on the robot-droid-probe. Does he take a spacecraft which have now been fixed to work under cold conditions? As far as we know, he and Chewie walk -- though they may have taken Tauntauns. Why? Couldnt Chewie fit into a spacefighter? Are robot-droid-probes sensitive to electronic equipment? Doesnt Darth Vader know that you never put all your prisoners together so they can comfort each other, regain morale, and plan how to escape? He knew about solitary confinement in SW -- why has he forgotten in TESB? Questions: Luke draws his saber first every time he faces Vader, incl- uding in the cave. Anybody know whether Vader or OB1 draws first in their great battle? I forgot to look. How does R2D2 go down stairs? Why does Luke throw the food stick which he wont let Yoda eat into the swamp? What does the princess do her hair with after days of torture while in Solitary confinement? Laura Creighton decvax!utzoo!laura ------------------------------ Date: 19 Dec 82 16:16:30-PST (Sun) From: harpo!ihnp4!larry at Ucb-C70 Subject: Luke Strikes First? In an earlier article, somebdy thought that in both "major" battles between Luke and Darth, that Luke started the attack. This is wrong. In the cave, Luke ignites his lightsaber first, but only holds in in front of him -Darth makes the first lunge. HOWEVER in the carbon freezing chamber, Luke definitely does make the first move. The "restarts" of this fight have: Darth with light saber drawn, but instead "throws" things at Luke; and Darth almost surprising Luke with the 1st blow. Some "other" thoughts: The Star Wars flicks are fantasy and basically follow a generic good-guys vs. pirates "swashbuckler". The movies are (for the most part) aimed at the "young" (pre-teen to early teen) audience. Based on this, OB-1 can NOT have lied and Darth MUST have lied -- Darth is NOT Luke's dad. (I'll bend somewhat that Darth maybe a clone, but I doubt it) Also based on these ideas, I doubt that Leia will have ANYBODIES baby (to be the "other"). With the whole Star Wars being a triology of triolgies, what are the 1st and 3rd tri's about?? Well, I recall an interview with Lucas somewhat after SW4-ANH is a big hit. In it he spoke of the next flick (SW5-TESB), but more important, he mentions that the original idea for episode 4 was supposed to play of the 'droids more! It wasn't until the "studio empire" told him that he had to punch up the human parts (or no flick) that Luke (and the others) became major characters. Now since Lucas can call all the shots, I'll bet that the overall 9 movies are about Artoo and Seepio. (clever the way Lucas pick their model-numbers so that they "sound" like names! --[[ OB-1?? ]]) One more thought on "the other" -- who or whatever it may be -- it doesn't HAVE to be Jedi. Remember, Yoda tells Luke that the future is "difficult to tell... clouded by emotions". I suspect that there really won't be any new characters (not major ones at least), but that the "other" hope will be Leia's love for Luke. Luke is obviously taken in by her from the first time Artoo projects her image. Poor confused Leia in episode's 4 & 5 has been balancing between Luke and Han. In RotJ, I think she'll realy pick one --Luke. Han will really turn out to be "Mr SOLO" --and not want to settle down. (that or else some other beauty will turn his head) ???? Larry Marek ...ihuxf!larry ------------------------------ Date: 20 Dec 82 9:55:37-PST (Mon) From: decvax!utzoo!utcsrgv!perelgut at Ucb-C70 Subject: SW-IV & -V Well, you people convinced me to go back and see episodes IV and V again. Some interesting things have been missed or mis-stated. 1) Darth Vader kills lots of people. He starts by picking up the commander of Leia's ship (the opening scenes) by the neck and shaking him until he is dead. Not particularly nice. He also kills lots of people by using the Force to strangle them. 2) OB-1 is definitely called OB-1. It seems that the future has slurred the 1 to sound more like Wan, but the more cultured types (such as old Ben himself) speak clearly enough. 3) Nobody mentioned that Luke's uncle's name was Owen (O-1). also says this fairly clearly at least twice. 4) When Ben says Vader murdered Luke's father, I got the feeling he was speaking in a metaphysical sense. Vader (the dark side) won out over Skywalker (the better side). Thus Vader "murdered" Luke's father. 5) There is some resemblence between the emperor and Ben but the credits list them as different actors. 6) Leia is a little slut who obviously wants Luke, Han, and Chewie. 7) Luke's light saber is very likely gone, although he could have used the Force to call it back to him. Here is some wild speculation. I am not at all convinced that Luke will be an all around good-guy for the next movie. Although it goes against shlock American film-making practices, Luke could very well become a baddie. I wouldn't be surprised to see Vader/Skywalker and Luke take on the Emperor and then take over the Galaxy. Perhaps Vader might even die in the encounter. But the "other" will win out in the end. One more thought before I go. Did anyone else notice that none of the good guys ever got hit by the laser blasts. At least not seriously. However, R2D2 stood in the line of fire more often without suffering any real damages. It (he?) only got caught a couple of time and usually it was "fortuitous happenstance" since it advanced R2D2 toward his current goals. R2D2 also circumvented every security system set up and talked freely with all other computers. If all R2 units had that capability the Galaxy would be controlled by 'droids, or unscrupulous 'droid owners. --- Stephen Perelgut --- ------------------------------ Date: 21 Dec 82 8:03:58-PST (Tue) From: harpo!ihnp4!larry at Ucb-C70 Subject: Darth vs OB-1 I watched episode 4 last nite. Some interesting points from the Darth vs OB-1 light saber battle. First OB-1 seems to almost "stumble" upon Darth. Darth is standing there blocking the way with his light saber ignited, OB-1 turns his on (in one of the best effects parts of the movie) --then OB-1 makes the first lunge!! As the fight goes on, it becomes obvious that OB-1 is manuvering the fight to distract the other guards so the Luke, Liea, & Han can escape. OB-1's final words still haunt me tho-- "You can't win Darth. Even if you strike me down, I'll become more powerful than you can ever imagine" So far, all the transcended OB-1 has done is whisper into Luke's ear. Doesn't sound very powerful to me. I suspect OB-1 to have a bigger roll in RotJ. Larry Marek ------------------------------ Date: 17 Dec 82 12:15:01-PST (Fri) From: decvax!yale-com!brunix!jah at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: re: light saber The light saber may well be the only weapon that can stop a well trained jedi. Remember what happened when Darth was shot at close range from a blaster? (make that "with a blaster") He simply catches the "bullets." ------------------------------ Date: 18 Dec 82 18:29:13-PST (Sat) From: harpo!npoiv!alice!sjb at Ucb-C70 Subject: Light Sabers I think the fact that Darth's saber is red and Luke's and Ben's are blue/white is a VERY strong hint that the sabers ARE powered by the force. Hell, just because there's an on button doesn't mean it's not powered by the force. After all, if it was powered by the force and there were no button, it would be on ALL THE TIME! Now, I don't know about you, but I sure don't want that thing on and bouncing up and down while I am running (or even walking)! Nice way to amputate your own leg. What does this all mean? If the light saber is powered by the force, then Han sure has the force with him, leading to Han as the other. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 29-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #119 *** EOOH *** Date: Wednesday, December 29, 1982 8:13PM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #119 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 30 Dec 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 119 Today's Topics: Misc - Harper's article Books - book wanted, Asimov's FOUNDATION'S EDGE Movies - Dune, SW/TESB/ROTJ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 December 1982 08:36 est From: SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-MULTICS Subject: Harper's article. I have my own theories about who likes what KIND of SF flavored literature and why but I should point out that Harper's is into presenting this kind of article. A two part cover story titled "Panic Among the Philistines" points out the general bankruptcy and alienation of modern authors of MAINSTREAM fiction. A lot of John Updike fans were really upset but I couldn't help agreeing. Another article expounded the view that environmentalists are all spoiled upper middle class brats who are trying to keep the working class in line by limiting the exploitation of natural resources. Since I fit right in this pocket I was rather offended. This iconoclastic approach has been rather prominent ever since Harper's managed to squeak past its last cash crunch and apparently has kept the magazine solvent. One approach might be to treat Harper's as a magazine of Speculative Fiction (or just plain speculation) in which authors try changing or extrapolating accepted wisdom. Modern literature is not particularly good, rather it is awful. The environmental movement is a neo-feudalistic force. If you toss in a grain of salt the slander is often a lot easier to take. sas ------------------------------ Date: 29 Dec 1982 11:43:06-EST From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX Subject: book wanted I am wondering whether anyone else has heard of a book I read 20 years ago. I recall the title being MR. MURGATROYD, the title character being a gnomish type who blows out of a London fog to lead an American boy (whose father is attached to the embassy) on an assortment of adventures relating to both traditional fantasies and English mythology (one of the reappearing characters is a variant of the Green Man). Does anyone else remember this? Has anyone seen a copy for sale anywhere?? ------------------------------ Date: 18 Dec 82 18:23:05-PST (Sat) From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn at Ucb-C70 Subject: Speculation about FOUNDATION sequels (possible spoiler) *** WARNING *** This discussion is not intended to be deep enough to merit a full SPOILER WARNING but if you are easily annoyed by spoilage you should skip over this... Isaac Asimov didn't exactly tie up all the loose ends in FOUNDATION'S EDGE; in fact he left the way wide open for yet another FOUNDATION book. One of the interesting things about FOUNDATION'S EDGE is the way in which earlier Asimov books are tied into the story-line. Three things in particular are recalled but not developed in detail, suggesting possible deeper treatments in future works: o The Robots o The Earthmen o The Eternals I assume that everyone is familiar with at least some of the classic robot stories: I, ROBOT; THE REST OF THE ROBOTS; THE CAVES OF STEEL; THE NAKED SUN. I understand from Asimov's remarks in IASFM that he is working on a new robot novel; perhaps this will fill in some of the necessary connections with the "Galactic Empire" universe of FOUNDATION. THE BOOK OF FLIGHT (mentioned obliquely in EDGE as a source of legends about Earth) apparently describes a resolution of the problem which is presented in THE CAVES OF STEEL and THE NAKED SUN: the men of Earth overcome their agoraphobia but not their fear of robots, and they start a new wave of settlement (`the Flight') which bypasses the robot worlds and leads to the development of the Empire. Of course we do meet a robot in EDGE, but it raises as many questions as it resolves... The Eternals and the Earthmen are less well known than the Robots. Earthmen in Galactic Empire times are the subject of Asimov's very first novel, PEBBLE IN THE SKY. I went back and re-read this book recently to see how it might reflect on plot developments in FOUNDATION V. A number of important things from PEBBLE are mentioned in EDGE: There really is a planet called Earth in the Sirius Sector and it really is considered to be the original home of humanity. It was radioactive, either to begin with or eventually, and this grew worse till the planet died. There was indeed a mind-enhancing invention that came to nothing. All this is considered history on the home planet of my ancestors. [p. 204, EDGE] PEBBLE takes place in the Year of the Galactic Era 827, back at the beginning of the Empire's long history. Earth is a backwater planet whose only distinction is that its surface is radioactive. The archaeologist Bel Arvardan suspects that Earth is the original planet of the human race and pays a visit to the planet to test his theory. Unfortunately for him, Earth is a rebellious place which is held in check only by an Imperial garrison, and the semi-secret Society of Ancients is continually plotting vengeance on the oppressing Galactics. Arvardan stumbles into an ugly scheme by the Ancients to wipe out all other life in the Galaxy (I guess the Galaxy just isn't Krikkit) and spends the book being alternately arrogant and humbled. But that's not all-- Joseph Schwartz is a retired Chicago tailor who goes for a walk on a pleasant morning in June of 1949 and never comes home. As a result of a mysterious laboratory accident at the Institute for Nuclear Research across town, he is thrown thousands of years into the future. The farmer who eventually takes him in is annoyed by Schwartz's inability to speak the language and is afraid to be caught out by the ever-vigilant Society of Ancients for hoarding an elderly father-in-law (everyone is supposed to submit to euthanasia at the age of 60), so Schwartz is disposed of by being forced to act as a guinea pig for a new mind-enhancing device, the Synapsifier. Schwartz develops mental abilities equivalent to those of Stor Gendibal in EDGE and his intelligence triples. The Ancients find out about Schwartz and attempt to eliminate him, believing him to be an agent of the Empire... PEBBLE isn't bad for a first novel. But Asimov never explains what happens to Schwartz after the events in the book, nor what becomes of the Synapsifier. In EDGE we never learn the reason why all references to Earth have been deleted from the Imperial library on Trantor: you don't suppose that the Synapsifier and perhaps even Joe Schwartz are still around somewhere after thousands of years? Golan Trevize is planning on visiting Earth, however... maybe we will find out in FOUNDATION V. The Eternals are described in THE END OF ETERNITY. A rather different account is made of them in EDGE than what I remember of the original book, though. Unfortunately my copy of ETERNITY was the victim of a garage sale while I was an undergraduate so I can't make a direct comparison; is anyone on the net willing to review this one? There's all kinds of useful fuel for speculation about FOUNDATION V... Does anyone remember whether THE STARS LIKE DUST or THE CURRENTS OF SPACE have any interesting material? Donn Seeley UCSD Chemistry Dept. RRCF ucbvax!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn (619) 452-4017 sdamos!donn@nprdc ------------------------------ Date: 22 Dec 82 8:36:38-PST (Wed) From: decvax!microsof!fluke!vax1.witters at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: News about the Dune Movie Yeah, I've been reading about the Dune movie for about three years in the newspaper. Frankly, I'm beginning to doubt if it will ever be made. The last thing I read said it was being made by the same guy who made the recent Flash Gordon movie and King Kong (Dino DeLaurentus (sp?)). Supposedly, filming has already begun in Tunisia. The movie rights to the book have passed through three or four people. Considering the quality of the movies Dino has made before, I don't think Dune will be anything to look forward to. I don't give a damn if you sign your name or not. John Witters ------------------------------ Date: 21 Dec 82 7:50:12-PST (Tue) From: harpo!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!burton at Ucb-C70 Subject: News about the Dune Movie Last night on 'Entertainment Tonight', they announced that the lead singer for the Police, Sting, will be in the upcoming movie Dune. I don't remember if they said anything about the lead role, but what amazed me most is the word 'upcoming'; has anyone out there heard anything else about this movie? Whose making it? When will it be scheduled for release? Any other rumors? Doug Burton Bell Labs, Indy inuxc!burton ------------------------------ Date: 21 Dec 82 20:49:51-PST (Tue) From: harpo!eagle!mhuxt!mhuxa!mhuxh!mhuxm!pyuxjj!rlr at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: News about the Dune Movie Earlier this year, I saw an article purporting that the award- winning (?) David Lynch, of "The Elephant Man" and (more ... uh, importantly) "Eraserhead" fame, would be directing the "Dune" movie. Please note that his previous works are totally black & white, with that deep dark industrial quality. I cannot confirm if he is still involved with the film, or indeed if he ever was. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Dec 82 10:37:43-PST (Mon) From: teklabs!tektronix!rich at Ucb-C70 Subject: Light Sabers What's with all this "where does he get his LS" stuff? Surely, in a society that can produce blasters and Death Stars, making a simple light saber can be no trick. Granted, they "are rare." Big deal. Swords are not all that common in a society that uses M16s in battle, so why are we debating that Darth can't have a LS if Luke has his father's? Note the color of the light, also. OB1's and Luke's have this really "pure" blue-white color, while DV's is a very evil dirty red. Does this imply that the light saber is a mirror of the soul, or simply that DV's was made at a different time or place than the others? Rich Amber ------------------------------ Date: 20 Dec 82 14:24:01-PST (Mon) From: decvax!utzoo!laura at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: SW-IV & -V I went and saw SW4 and SW5 again too. LUCAS is UNFAIR to WOOKIES and WOMEN!! There are no female fighter-pilots, or Jedi, or officers of the Empire or even (as far as we know) storm troopers. The rebels had one female communications officer in TESB, though. In the triumphant procession at the end of SW Chewie, Han, and Luke march up in front of the rebel assembly ... but only Han and Luke receive medals. Drat! Is it against the Chewie's religion to wear anything besides that silver ammo-belt? (which may not even be an ammo belt?). Oh I forgot -- you get one shot of what is probably shoes on Chewie in TESB. I have finally discovered why I *much prefer* SW to TESB (contrary to popular opinion). In SW the characters are often impetuous and conceited, but in TESB, even with time to think they act *STUPIDLY*. Consider. Luke is in a cave with an abomknable snowman, miles and miles away from the base, and night is falling. What would you do? Start *walking* home? or kill the snow beast (or drive him away) with your light saber, and stay sheltered in the warm cave until morning? I know what *I* would do.... Han has survived a night outdoors on Hoth-moon. Now he wants to go out and check on the robot-droid-probe. Does he take a spacecraft which have now been fixed to work under cold conditions? As far as we know, he and Chewie walk -- though they may have taken Tauntauns. Why? Couldnt Chewie fit into a spacefighter? Are robot-droid-probes sensitive to electronic equipment? Doesnt Darth Vader know that you never put all your prisoners together so they can comfort each other, regain morale, and plan how to escape? He knew about solitary confinement in SW -- why has he forgotten in TESB? Questions: Luke draws his saber first every time he faces Vader, incl- uding in the cave. Anybody know whether Vader or OB1 draws first in their great battle? I forgot to look. How does R2D2 go down stairs? Why does Luke throw the food stick which he wont let Yoda eat into the swamp? What does the princess do her hair with after days of torture while in Solitary confinement? Laura Creighton decvax!utzoo!laura ------------------------------ Date: 18 Dec 82 17:43:56-PST (Sat) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rocheste!lee at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: Luke"s mechanical hand I hereby predict that Luke's mechanical hand will kill Vader when Luke is frozen into in action by lines "I am your father" or some other distraction. (shades of Amber) ------------------------------ Date: 19 Dec 82 16:16:30-PST (Sun) From: harpo!ihnp4!larry at Ucb-C70 Subject: Luke Strikes First? In an earlier article, somebdy thought that in both "major" battles between Luke and Darth, that Luke started the attack. This is wrong. In the cave, Luke ignites his lightsaber first, but only holds in in front of him -Darth makes the first lunge. HOWEVER in the carbon freezing chamber, Luke definitely does make the first move. The "restarts" of this fight have: Darth with light saber drawn, but instead "throws" things at Luke; and Darth almost surprising Luke with the 1st blow. Some "other" thoughts: The Star Wars flicks are fantasy and basically follow a generic good-guys vs. pirates "swashbuckler". The movies are (for the most part) aimed at the "young" (pre-teen to early teen) audience. Based on this, OB-1 can NOT have lied and Darth MUST have lied -- Darth is NOT Luke's dad. (I'll bend somewhat that Darth maybe a clone, but I doubt it) Also based on these ideas, I doubt that Leia will have ANYBODIES baby (to be the "other"). With the whole Star Wars being a triology of triolgies, what are the 1st and 3rd tri's about?? Well, I recall an interview with Lucas somewhat after SW4-ANH is a big hit. In it he spoke of the next flick (SW5-TESB), but more important, he mentions that the original idea for episode 4 was supposed to play of the 'droids more! It wasn't until the "studio empire" told him that he had to punch up the human parts (or no flick) that Luke (and the others) became major characters. Now since Lucas can call all the shots, I'll bet that the overall 9 movies are about Artoo and Seepio. (clever the way Lucas pick their model-numbers so that they "sound" like names! --[[ OB-1?? ]]) One more thought on "the other" -- who or whatever it may be -- it doesn't HAVE to be Jedi. Remember, Yoda tells Luke that the future is "difficult to tell... clouded by emotions". I suspect that there really won't be any new characters (not major ones at least), but that the "other" hope will be Leia's love for Luke. Luke is obviously taken in by her from the first time Artoo projects her image. Poor confused Leia in episode's 4 & 5 has been balancing between Luke and Han. In RotJ, I think she'll realy pick one --Luke. Han will really turn out to be "Mr SOLO" --and not want to settle down. (that or else some other beauty will turn his head) ???? Larry Marek ...ihuxf!larry ------------------------------ Date: 20 Dec 82 9:55:37-PST (Mon) From: decvax!utzoo!utcsrgv!perelgut at Ucb-C70 Subject: SW-IV & -V Well, you people convinced me to go back and see episodes IV and V again. Some interesting things have been missed or mis-stated. 1) Darth Vader kills lots of people. He starts by picking up the commander of Leia's ship (the opening scenes) by the neck and shaking him until he is dead. Not particularly nice. He also kills lots of people by using the Force to strangle them. 2) OB-1 is definately called OB-1. It seems that the future has slurred the 1 to sound more like Wan, but the more cultured types (such as old Ben himself) speak clearly enough. 3) Nobody mentionned that Luke's uncle's name was Owen (O-1). Ben also says this fairly clearly at least twice. 4) When Ben says Vader murdered Luke's father, I got the feeling he was speaking in a metaphysical sense. Vader (the dark side) won out over Skywalker (the better side). Thus Vader "murdered" Luke's father. 5) There is some resemblence between the emperor and Ben but the credits list them as different actors. 6) Leia is a little slut who obviously wants Luke, Han, and Chewie. 7) Luke's light saber is very likely gone, although he could have used the Force to call it back to him. Here is some wild speculation. I am not at all convinced that Luke will be an all around good-guy for the next movie. Although it goes against shlock American film-making practices, Luke could very well become a baddie. I wouldn't be surprised to see Vader/Skywalker and Luke take on the Emperor and then take over the Galaxy. Perhaps Vader might even die in the encounter. But the "other" will win out in the end. One more thought before I go. Did anyone else notice that none of the good guys ever got hit by the laser blasts. At least not seriously. However, R2D2 stood in the line of fire more often without suffering any real damages. It (he?) only got caught a couple of time and usually it was "fortuitous happenstance" since it advanced R2D2 toward his current goals. R2D2 also circumvented every security system set up and talked freely with all other computers. If all R2 units had that capability the Galaxy would be controlled by 'droids, or unscrupulous 'droid owners. --- Stephen Perelgut --- ------------------------------ Date: 21 Dec 82 8:03:58-PST (Tue) From: harpo!ihnp4!larry at Ucb-C70 Subject: Darth vs OB-1 I watch episode 4 last nite. Some interesting points from the Darth vs OB-1 light saber battle. First OB-1 seems to almost "stumble" upon Darth. Darth is standing there blocking the way with his light saber ignited, OB-1 turns his on (in one of the best effects parts of the movie) --then OB-1 makes the first lunge!! As the fight goes on, it becomes obvious that OB-1 is manuvering the fight to distract the other guards so the Luke, Liea, & Han can escape. OB-1's final words still haunt me tho-- "You can't win Darth. Even if you strike me down, I'll become more powerful than you can ever imagine" So far, all the transcended OB-1 has done is whisper into Luke's ear. Doesn't sound very powerful to me. I suspect OB-1 to have a bigger roll in RotJ. Larry Marek ------------------------------ Date: 19 Dec 82 17:02:20-PST (Sun) From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!sdcsvax!sdchema!pha at Ucb-C70 Subject: Lukes hand I checked up on the book of TESB, and discovered that no one could have recovered Luke's hand; it was a gas planet! ------------------------------ Date: 18 Dec 82 18:29:13-PST (Sat) From: harpo!npoiv!alice!sjb at Ucb-C70 Subject: Light Sabers I think the fact that Darth's saber is red and Luke's and Ben's are blue/white is a VERY strong hint that the sabers ARE powered by the force. Hell, just because there's an on button doesn't mean it's not powered by the force. After all, if it was powered by the force and there were no button, it would be on ALL THE TIME! Now, I don't know about you, but I sure down want that thing on and bouncing up and down while I running (or even walking)! Nice way to amputate your own leg. What does this all mean? If the light saber is powered by the force, then Han sure has the force with him, leading to Han as the other. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Dec 82 13:46:50-PST (Mon) From: harpo!ihnp4!ihuxr!lew at Ucb-C70 Subject: Dark Father When my four year old son had just seen "The Empire Strikes Back" (his first movie,) I asked him what he liked best in it. He pulled his pacifier out of his mouth and intoned "Daarrrrth Vaaaaderrrr". For my part, I thought Vader's revelation to Luke provided the only genuine drama in either movie. I can only hope that Lucas doesn't fumble this opportunity away with some facile contrivance. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Dec 1982 12:45:50-EST From: David.Smith at CMU-CS-IUS at CMU-CS-A Subject: Star wars minutiae & coming episodes This stuff about stormtroopers' armor and lightsabers makes me think you all take SW too seriously. When I first saw SW4, I thought it was a lot of fun, but a poor movie full of stock lines and settings. (And I am not a frequent movie-goer.) On later reflection, however, I figured that Lucas was intentionally parodying westerns &c. Consider how C3PO and R2D2 shuffled and rolled (respectively) slowly across the corridor to get to the life pods, while storm troopers filled the air with blaster bullets. Intentionally implausible. Then there are spaceships maneuvering in space like airplanes, and on and on. If the armor seems ineffective, it is because they are the bad guys. The speculations on the other trilogies prompted me to get out my copy of Time magazine for May 19, 1980 -- the one with Darth Vader on the cover. From a box: ... The remaining movies, fore and aft, have not yet been laid out in detail, but Lucas has the framework, a kind of history of what happened in that galaxy long ago and far away. A preview: For years the universe was governed by a republic, which was regulated by the order of Jedi Knights... But eventually the citizens of the republic "didn't care enough to elect competent officials," says Lucas the historian, and so their government collapsed. A sorcerer, a bad counterpart of Yoda, blocked all opposition and declared himself emperor... The emperor subverts Darth Vader to his side, and together he and Vader betray the other Knights, nearly all of whom are killed in their trap. Ben Kenobi escapes, and after a fierce struggle he does such injury to Vader that forever after Vader must wear a mask and that noisy life-support system. The fall of the republic and the rise of the empire will form the first of Lucas' three trilogies. The second trilogy ... centers on Luke Skywalker, who will be seen as a child in Episode 3. The "Empire" continues the Skywalker story, and ... [RotJ] will end it, with either Luke or Darth Vader walking away from their final bout. The last three episodes involve the rebuilding of the republic. Only two of the main characters will appear in all nine films, and they are the robots, Artoo Detoo and Threepio. Says Lucas: "In effect, the story will be told through their eyes." ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 29 December 1982 19:51-EST From: Vince Fuller Subject: detection of good and evil in the Force Date: 20 Dec 82 14:08:15 EST (Mon) From: Rene Steiner To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC Re: detection of good and evil in the Force Ah, but Good CAN be detected - Darth Vader detected Obi-wan on the Death Star ("I feel a presence in the force, someone I have not detected since...." not an exact quote, but you get the idea.) I disagree. What he said was "I feel a tremor in the Force, something I have not felt since...". He felt the magnitude and character of Obi-wan's mastery of the force, not its "goodness" or "evilness" (also when trying to shoot down Luke: "the Force is strong in this one"). It would seem that powerful users of the Force radiate and aura which acts sort of as a "signature" for them. --vaf ------------------------------ Date: 15 Dec 82 18:32:41-PST (Wed) From: decvax!utzoo!watmath!bstempleton at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: Food for thought...........TESB, the "other, etc. I think the force is with Han Solo, too - although he's not the other. I should point out however that Han did NOT hit Darth Vader in the death star battle. He hit Vader's wingman, and that ship went out of control and crashed into Vader's ship. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Dec 82 12:15:01-PST (Fri) From: decvax!yale-com!brunix!jah at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: re: light saber The light saber may well be the only weapon that can stop a well trained jedi. Remember what happened when Darth was shot at close range from a blaster? (make that "with a blaster") He simply catches the "bullets." ------------------------------ Date: 22 Dec 82 14:12:50-PST (Wed) From: harpo!ihnp4!ihldt!tmh at Ucb-C70 Subject: re: Darth Vader in the cave Saw TESB last night and watched the cave scene with some particular interest. Could it be that the face inside the Vader helmet is Vader's original face? (This would provide fuel to the clone theory.) Tom Harris ------------------------------ Date: 28 Dec 1982 1623-PST From: Dolata at SUMEX-AIM Subject: The FORCE, or bad editing? I recently saw SW-ANH (IV) in a situation where we could examine the film closely. In the fight between Darth Vader and Obiwan, Obiwan's brown cloak starts to collapse 2 frames (at least) before Darth's light sabre hits it!!!!! So, did Darth kill Obiwan, or was he gone already? Or am I picking nits with the editor? ------------------------------ Date: 16 Dec 82 15:26:20-PST (Thu) From: decvax!cwruecmp!ccc at Ucb-C70 Subject: Star Wars, Empire, RotJ, etc. :-) >From: Clayton M. Elwell [...!decvax!cwruecmp!ccc] "Previews, Plotlines, Spoilers, Inside Knowledge... A true Jedi craves not these things..." ------------------------------ Date: 14 Dec 82 16:54:19-PST (Tue) From: harpo!npoiv!hou5f!hou5d!hou5a!hou5e!jjm at Ucb-C70 Subject: The Emperor in The Empire Strikes Back The Emperor in TESB was played by an English actor named Clive Reville (sp?). I have seen him in other movies, so this is not a fake name. Despite a previous news item, Alec Guiness is not dead. (Anyone who saw the recent TV movie "Smiley's People" knows that.) Jim McParland BTL - Holmdel hou5e!jjm ------------------------------ Date: 17 Dec 82 11:43:12-PST (Fri) From: menlo70!sytek!zehntel!tektronix!rich at Ucb-C70 Subject: DV not OTHER Hmmm. If we assume OB1 to be a "good guy" and "DV" to be a "bad guy" and knowing that there is "some good" even in bad guys, wouldn't OB1 have been able to detect it? And so far, with the exception of Yoda, OB1 is (was) the ranking Jedi (master of the force). If there was good there, OB1 would not have attempted to kill DV. I suggest we look elsewhere. Or better yet, wait for the real answer in May. R.Amber ------------------------------ Date: 20 Dec 82 10:35:28-PST (Mon) From: Subject: RotJ: Yet Another Speculation Several months ago, on the PBS series "Nova", there was a program on the uses of computers in the arts (mostly neat video stuff). One of the segments was about work that was being done at LucasFilms. If recollection serves, they had some nifty technique whereby the sound of a musical instrument (a flute) was modulated into speaking patterns by a human voice. A rather haunting demonstration film was included. Now, why would LucasFilms be working on something like this? Most Star Wars maniacs know that the Star Wars saga is purportedly derived from "The Journal of the Whills". It is quite possible that the flute-voice was created for the Whills, who would be seen or heard for the first time in Revenge of the Jedi. Remember, you heard it here first. Unless it's wrong. Mike ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 31-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #120 *** EOOH *** Date: Friday, December 31, 1982 6:11AM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #120 To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 31 Dec 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 120 Today's Topics: Misc - tcp cutover Movies - The Day the Earth Stood Still, Dune, Blade Runner, SW/TESB/ROTJ Humor - Hitchhiker's Guide to the Net ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 31 Dec 1982 0606-PST From: SFL at SRI-CSL Subject: tcp cutover Due to the impending tcp cutover, sf-lovers is going into hibernation for awhile. It will return some day. Stuart ------------------------------ Date: 27 Dec 1982 11:54:18-EST From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX Subject: translation of THE DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL In context, it is made very clear that "Klaatu barada nikto" means something like "Klaatu commands [that] [you] wait/do nothing/don't harm anything" (look again at the scene where Neal gets these words from Klaatu, who is specifically worried that Gort will go on a rampage). ------------------------------ Date: 30 Dec 1982 15:12:56-EST From: James.Muller at CMU-CS-GANDALF at CMU-CS-A Subject: Dune, and (not again!!) SW Could it be that the reason r2d2 can resist phaser fire, break all security systems, etc... is that he is a special droid, not really just an r2 unit. After all, he is costar of the tritrilogy. Eraserhead was a neat movie. If its director is directing Dune, I expect something good. Probably I just have the wrong impression of Sting from seeing him play Bellboy in Quadrophenia, but it seems that the only person he could be is Feyd-Rautha. Am I wrong? 'im ------------------------------ Date: 30 Dec 82 9:49:50-PST (Thu) From: npois!houxm!houxa!houxi!whuxk!3722trn at Ucb-C70 Subject: Blade Runner music, RotJ Last night I bought an album of music from Blade Runner. It is called an 'orchestral adaptation' of music from the Blade Runner, by the New American Orchestra. It is NOT a K-tel version of the soundtrack ('operators are standing by'). The jacket features some stills from the movie on the back, and the front features the movie poster. It also was released by Warner bros., who released the movie. I've only listened to it once. It does capture some of that haunting, moody feel of the soundtrack. I'd prefer a soundtrack by Vangelis, but this is the closest we may ever get. I also saw some new previews for RotJ, ie different from the previews that went out with the last release of Empire. Some quick scenes: 1. Luke in a black version of his Dagobah fatiques, with blue light saber. 2. people on anti-grav motorcycles racing through a forest. 3. han and leia reunited. 4. Two alien types, who appear to have a greater role than just supplying atmosphere. lorraine whuxf!lkl ------------------------------ Date: 27 Dec 1982 10:20 PST From: GMeredith.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #115 Just saw "Voyagers" for the first time last night (usually watch only one hour of television a week). I thought it an interesting, fast moving program with real value regarding getting kids (young and old) excited about the real world (beyond Pac-Man, Strawberry Shortcake, Dallas, etc.). ------------------------------ Date: 23 Dec 82 10:14:42-PST (Thu) From: decvax!utzoo!utcsrgv!kramer at Ucb-C70 Subject: Light Sabres Since light doesn't usually have the property that a beam stops a meter or two from its source, it seems likely that a light sabre is a mystical weapon in that it requires the use of the FORCE to limit the beam. This would limit its use to Jedi knights. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Dec 82 14:26:42-PST (Mon) From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!sdcsvax!sdchema!djo at Ucb-C70 Subject: Tai Chi as it relates to the Force Being a student of T'ai Chi Chuan I must agree with Tony that The Force has always reminded me of Chi. T'ai Chi translates to Universal Exercise. T'ai Chi Ch'uan is the study of T'ai Chi for self defense. Ch'uan means fist. The Chi permeates all living things. The Chi is vital energy or prana in Sanskrit. Every person is born with a certain amount of Chi. It flows throughout your body. When it is used up you will die. There are certain things you can do to create more Chi thus keeping yourself youthful and extending your life span such as eating healthy and exercise but the practice of T'ai Chi is the BEST method. To be an expert in T'ai Chi Ch'uan is to have immunity from destructive external forces and from poor health. It is mental and physical coordination. The body is the form, and the mind is the moving force. The Chi is the prime component of acupuncture. Acupuncture seeks to open the point(s) in your body where the Chi is blocked allowing its healing powers to reach the problem area(s). It is sometimes visualized as a kind of fluid that runs through the body along certain channels called meridians. The Chi is controlled and directed from the center of the body. You must find that place within yourself and "sink" into it. The "trick" to the incredible power of T'ai Chi Ch'uan as a fighting style is to follow your opponents hostile energy without opposing or interfering with it; remaining calmly centered while your assailant goes about the business of defeating himself. There are two great qualities that T'ai Chi gradually bestows upon its faithful practitioners: wisdom and power. I will leave it you if this sounds like The Force. If anyone is interested in any further info just let me know and I will send mail. I don't want to clutter up sf-lovers anymore with this. Denise O'Jibway La Jolla, CA ------------------------------ Date: 28 Dec 82 21:15:04-PST (Tue) From: harpo!duke!phs!cmk at Ucb-C70 Subject: SW on HBO It's true!! Star Wars will be on HBO starting February 1. I have a feeling I'm going to be Forced to death. Chuck ------------------------------ Date: 28 Dec 1982 2246-PST From: SCHIFFMAN at SRI-KL Subject: Obvious choice for "the other"... This may have already been leaked, but I didn't see it -- "The other" is none other than Hans's father, Napoleon. {Quick cut to a closet in a Tailor's shop on Dagobah...} -Allan ------------------------------ Date: 23 Dec 82 10:14:42-PST (Thu) From: decvax!utzoo!utcsrgv!kramer at Ucb-C70 Subject: Light Sabres Since light doesn't usually have the property that a beam stops a meter or two from its source, it seems likely that a light sabre is a mystical weapon in that it requires the use of the FORCE to limit the beam. This would limit its use to Jedi knights. ------------------------------ Date: 29 December 1982 08:36 est From: SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-MULTICS Subject: Freedman's Dark Crystal review I can't believe that Freedman even saw the movie...his review was so full of mistatements and crocks. 1. Aughra was female. Was I the only one who noticed her sagging, braless breasts? 2. Aughra only showed the "planetarium" (actually, according to her, "universarium" would fit better) to Jen. Kira didn't even show up until later. 3. The Garthim were more lobsters than roaches (obviously, Freedman does not live anywhere near the east coast, where such a parallel would be hard to miss). 4. Jen and Kira, atop landstriders, ATTACKED the Garthim, they weren't CHASED by them. They went in to free a basket full of Podpeople. (PS to moderator, I don't think this constitutes anywhere near a spoiler). Beyond anger at a reviewer who doesn't even pay attention to the movie: I thought Dark Crystal was one of the most fascinating movies I have ever seen, visually (akin to Bladerunner that way). The plot is thin....you see one quest, you've seen them all. Of all the characters, our heros (the Gelflings) are the weakest. They show little facial expression and have some of the dumbest dialogue going. The Skeksis, on the other hand, were immensely interesting. As in the movie "Popeye", there is an AWFUL lot going on during scenes with the Skeksis, mutterings and imprecations and discussions and other interesting stuff (including somebody saying "What the bloody hell?" in one scene...can you find it?). These made it worth going back to a second time (I have seen it twice in two days....) Just to WATCH, this movie is worth sitting through a dull plot. There are great things wandering around all over, and lots of little details to pay attention to. And the world appears to be interally consistent (ecologically) as well! I highly recommend this movie to SEE. and SEE. and SEE. The more you look, the more you find worth watching. And it is the most texturally interesting movie I have ever watched. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Dec 82 8:52:43-PST (Tue) From: npois!houxm!ihnp4!ihldt!ll1!otuxa!lsk at Ucb-C70 Subject: Where the names R2D2 and C3P0 came from Lucas said in a recent article that both "names" R2D2 and C3P0 were just interesting "sounds" he'd heard along the way of life. I remember that R2D2 came from his standing around one of the film editors who needed R2D2; reel 2, day 2. So much for mystical meanings Larry S. Kaufman, Western Electric, Network Software Center, Lisle, Illinois ------------------------------ Date: 28 Dec 1982 1847-EST From: Marla Subject: Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy Series Enough speculation on Star Trek III and Star Wars NNN..... What about Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Part IV? Here's an interesting point to brood on.... In the series, when the 'Disaster Area' ship is about to plunge into the sun with our heroes, Marvin reveals that HE knows the question to Life, the Universe and Everything, to which the answer is 42. How is this so? Well, dear viewers, remember that key phrase that Marvin uttered about 3 times in every episode? "...Brain the size of a planet, and THEY want me to...." ...walk the dog, make tea, etc. Interesting. Marvin was probably quite a few generations away from Deep Thought, and perhaps even from that Mega-computer we all knew as Earth. Now, Earth's program was 'only' scheduled to run for 10 million years. However, while our heroes were dining at the Restauran' at the End of the Universe, Marvin had many, many millions of years to wait around. He must have done *something* besides park cars! Yes, folks, he would have been able to run the 'Earth' program a few times, just for monotony's sake! Given the starting data, he could, reasonably, extrapolate the question! Unfortunately, Marvin was left diving into the sun at the end of episode 7.....ah, well, the best laid plans of mice.... ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 29 December 1982 19:33-EST From: Vince Fuller Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #112 (Dark Crystal - Spoiler warning) I saw Dark Crystal the other day and was impressed by the effects, the scenery, and the "acting". Most of the critters in the film were sufficiently well-made that they were believable. The main thing that bothered me about the movie was that is was so darn PREDICTABLE! Most of the ending could be guessed from about half-way through the movie, and I knew that the death/resurrection sequence would go through. They seemed a bit too concerned with everything coming out good in the end, thus the ending was a bit trite, dispite the cute effects. flame on, --vaf ------------------------------ Date: 29 Dec 82 8:47:08-PST (Wed) From: harpo!npoiv!alice!sjb at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: The FORCE, or bad editing? He was gone already. I seem to recall that that scene gave the people doing the filming great headaches. They tried putting dummies in for Obiwan just before Vader strikes him, but every time Vader hit the dummy with the light saber it (no kidding) burst into flames (now there's an effect: Obi Flambe!)! So, I guess they just hung up Obi's robe and let Vader swing away at it. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Dec 82 16:34:35-PST (Wed) From: harpo!npoiv!hou5f!hou5b!hou5c!hou5e!jjm at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: all this Star Wars traffic on the net Several years ago, I (for some forgotten reason) wrote to Ben Bova, who was at that time the editor of Analog magazine. As a postscript, I asked him "If Star Trek fans are called 'trekkies', what should be call Star Wars fans?" I was surprised to receive a personal reply to my letter, and in a postscript, Ben added: "Star Trek fans are 'trekkies', Star Wars fans are dolts." (no flames to me, please!) Jim McParland (the other) BTL - Holmdel hou5e!jjm ------------------------------ Date: 30 Dec 1982 11:41:19-EST From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX Subject: more rumors on the DUNE movie This month's LOCUS has the first installment of a new column by Craig Miller, who was Lucasfilm's fan publicist for TESB and started his own company after being laid off by Lucasfilm just after TESB came out. He says that DUNE is once again in preproduction (which can take up to a year before a foot of film is shot) under DeLaurentiis, but there's no way of telling whether this attempt will get any further than the other two. (There's a polite undertone that I read as "If you expect to see DUNE as a movie any time soon I've got this terrific bridge I can let you have real cheap. . . .") ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 30 December 1982 16:01-EST From: Vince Fuller Subject: The FORCE, or bad editing? Date: Tuesday, 28 December 1982 19:23-EST From: Dolata at SUMEX-AIM To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC Re: The FORCE, or bad editing? I recently saw SW-ANH (IV) in a situation where we could examine the film closely. In the fight between Darth Vader and Obiwan, Obiwan's brown cloak starts to collapse 2 frames (at least) before Darth's light sabre hits it!!!!! So, did Darth kill Obiwan, or was he gone already? Or am I picking nits with the editor? This, I would say, was intentional. Obi-wan's grin (and the music we hear) just before he turns off his light sabre indicate that he knows what is going on. I think he decided that he needed to make an impact and had no real use for his corporeal form any longer. He therefore fled his body BEFORE Vader "killed" him. ------------------------------ Date: 30 December 1982 20:48-EST From: Steven A. Swernofsky Subject: Star Wars 3 (er, 6) preview footage Preview footage of the next movie in the Star Wars series is now appearing at movie theatres in the L.A. area. I noticed these trivia: 1 The movie is clearly called "REVENGE of the Jedi" (emphasis added). So much for SF-L speculation about Lucas changing the name. 2 Luke Skywalker appears at least twice in the footage. On each occasion he is wearing black; at least once he is standing next to Darth Vader (sans violence). Perhaps he has gone over to the Dark Side? Perhaps he is faking it? 3 In spite of LucasFilms's protests, Obi-Wan appears whole and hearty in their preview footage. If they plan to etherialize him in the film, they are certainly taking their time about it. 4 I didn't see any major new characters, but that of course doesn't mean that they aren't there. -- Steve ------------------------------ Date: 30 Dec 1982 2132-PST From: Henry W. Miller Subject: How Obia Wan "died" This is my theory on what happened to Obi Wan in SW IV: Obi Wan realized he might be able to defeat Darth Vader in mortal combat, but then again maybe not. He had trained Luke as best he could in the short time period, and that if he (Obi Wan) were to fail, it would be up to Luke. Luke, along with the others might be able to save the galaxy. but they were about to be captured. If this happened, the chance for victory would be almost non-existant. If Obi Wan could cause a distraction for long enough, the rest might be able to escape. Obi Wan was old, and knew he could not exist much longer in a corporeal form, so, he "phoofed" himself, left this plain and became one with the force, allowing him to help Luke later on, and, in the process, providing a diversion to allow the others to escape. I think he was already gone by the time the saber touched his robe. "Run, Luke, run!!!) -HWM ------------------------------ Date: 30 Dec 82 16:55:54-PST (Thu) From: harpo!npoiv!eisx!pyuxbb!pyuxdd!pyuxjj!pyuxcc!djs at Ucb-C70 Subject: The Empire Strikes Back on NPR radio The radio play The Empire Strikes Back has been recorded (as previously announced on the net) and will be aired in the NYC area starting in February on FM 94 WNYC. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Dec 82 19:50:48-PST (Thu) From: harpo!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!inuxd!arlan at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: all this Star Wars traffic on the net in near-future SF that is salable to the general public. And that's where he makes his money, and goood for him. However, he said that Star Wars and Close Encounters bore the same relation to SF that Hitler's invasion of Poland did to the Ten Commandments. I'm not quite sure of the comparisons there, but when Bova published my indignant response in Analog's Brass Tacks letter column, he allowed me to say that I disagreed with him. I still think it was a case of sour grapes: here this upstart filmmaker, very young, jumps on the SF bandwagon and makes hundreds of millions of $$$$, while some old-line writers are working on their first million (or first 100k$). No wonder some criticism is forthcoming--space opera pays a helo of a lot better than serious SF! (The latter defined, of course, as what the criticizer writes.) There was never such criticism back in the 50s and 60s when potboiler, B-gtrade hack films were churned out for the "sci-fi" crowd. No, the badmouthing began when the bucks began pouring in. Think about it. --Flame off--arlan andrews, american bell, indianapolis ------------------------------ Date: 15 Dec 82 6:18-PST From: mclure at SRI-UNIX Subject: hhgttg part 4 ***** sri-unix:net.jokes / grkermit!markm / 5:10 pm Dec 13, 1982 Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net Episode 4 - E.C. (The Extra Commercial) (Arnold Lint and the crew of the Infinity are on their way to Netrothea. They have successfully escaped both the Flamers and the Singles.) Xaphod: How much longer till we reach Netrothea? Martin: Too soon. Rod: Quiet! Gillian: I can't wait to get there! Arnold Lint: I'm just glad we're still in one piece. Martin: It doesn't take much to make you happy, does it? (All of a sudden, a blinding light fills the bridge of the Infinity. When the light fades, a small, sickeningly adorable creature is revealed. He is wearing a cap which says "I'm cute, buy me!") Gillian: What's that? Xaphod: That's E.C. - the Extra Commercial! Arnold Lint: The what? Rod: The Extra Commercial. The most commercialized being since Santa Claus! ["The Hitch Hikers Guide to the Net" lists Santa Claus as a being from Pluto who suffered severe brain damage when his space ship crashed on earth. Every year the silly old twit tries to fly an old sleigh and a flock of equally stupid reindeer back to Pluto. Unfortunately, his reverse gravity modulator is not 100 percent so he never quite gets out of earths orbit. This is just as well as the jerk lost all his deep space gear. Many people on earth have mistaken the boxes of Kentucky Fried Chicken he carries on his unlikely space craft (as rations for the trip to Pluto) for presents to be distributed to children. In actuality, the only reason Fred Glarn (his real name) ever climbs down chimneys is because he is totally wasted on Selurian Brandy and he is merely looking for a likely spot to sleep it off. (Why else would his nose always be red?).] Xaphod: I've never met E.C. before, I always though he was just some massive advertising ploy. Gillian: (To E.C.) Hello, I'm Gillian. E.C.: (In a heavy New York - Jewish accent) Oy vey, vhat a trip. Say goylie, you're cute. Xaphod: Huh? E.C.: Don't call me E.C., it's a meshugina name. My real name is Phil Moskowitz. Arnold Lint: Phil Moskowitz? Phil: Yes!, Vhat did you expect - Ricardo Montalban? Rod: You're the Extra Commercial? Phil: Don't laugh, my brother Saul owns Jordache Jeans! ["The Hitch Hikers Guide to the Net" states that the Jordache Jeans Company was actually a very clever marketing ploy by the makers of Preparation H. It was their intention to boost the sales of their rectal paraphenalia by inducing Americans to stuff their glutious maxima into overly confined garments. The ploy did not succeed.] Gillian: What are you doing here? Phil: I'm on my vay to the Net Christmas Special. This year it's being hosted by Johnny Arson and Bud McMolson. Vhen you're a purely commercial item like me, you have to travel a lot. Xaphod: But you're Jewish, what are you doing on a Christmas special? Phil: Believe me, it vasn't my idea. Some people out there actually think I'm Christ reborn. I knew a kid in Brooklyn name Jesus Martinez, but that's as close as I ever got. Anyvay, I'm hot right now in the market, so I go on any show they can get me on. Arnold Lint: That's unbelievable! How'd you get started in the business? Phil: Vell, I tell ya'. One day I'm sitting there, eating a lox on rye, and some movie man comes up to me and says: "I'm gonna make you are star". Next thing I know I'm in some nutso movie vith a bunch of little kids. I hate little kids. No sooner does the movie hit the screens than there are E.C. video games, clothing, silverware, contraceptives, books, posters, and kinky undergarments. You name it and I was on it. Then came the TV shows and all the publicity events - I actually cut the ribbon on the Jimmy Carter Memorial Brothel and Pro Shop! Then I had to appear at the opening of "Nukes are Us" - a store for budding nuclear powers. Xaphod: Wow, thats wild. Phil: Vell, I gotta run. Gillian: Bye! (The bright light once again fills the bridge, it fades and E.C. is gone.) Arnold Lint: That was incredible! Martin: If you say so! Rod: Quiet! Xaphod: Well, we're here . . . Netrothea! Martin: Oh joy and yummies. ******************** End Of Part 4 ******************** What will Arnold Lint and the crew of the Infinity find on Netrothea? For the answer to this spine-tingling question . . . Tune in next time . . . same Net-time . . . same Net-channel. Also, be sure not to miss the BIG NET CHRISTMAS SPECIAL starring Johnny Arson, Bud McMolson, Richard Nixon, Barry Manilow, Richard Simmons, and Teddy the Wonder Lizard. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Dec 82 12:03-PST From: mclure at SRI-UNIX Subject: hh5 ***** sri-unix:net.jokes / grkermit!markm / 12:48 pm Dec 16, 1982 Hitch Hikers Guide To The Net Episode 5 - Netrothea (The Infinity is about to land on Netrothea. It is here that Xaphod hopes to find a wealth of data to sell back to the Net for immense profits.) Rod: Okay Martin, lets land. Martin: Do we have to? Xaphod: Yes! Martin: Very well. Gillian: Cheer up Martin, maybe you'll meet a nice lady android. Wouldn't that be nice. Martin: Not really. Arnold Lint: How 'bout a nice male android? Martin: That's right more abuse, aren't things bad enough already? Besides, how can an android be homosexual? Come to think of it, we can't be heterosexual either! How dreadful. Rod: Quiet, we've landed. Xaphod: How fantastic! Gillian: How wonderful. Martin: How awful. All: Oh shut up! Xaphod: Right, lets go! (The door to the Infinity opens to reveal the landscape of Netrothea. It is indeed a strange landscape. The ground has the consistency of a partially frozen waterbed covered with rich Corinthian leather. Flames spring forth from the soil in primordial spleandor, displaying brilliant patterns of red and green. Off in the distance, great orange hills reflect the light of the purple sun. Polka-dotted polygram clouds move swiftly in uneven patterns across the blue and grey striped sky. The hills seemed to have been polished by the winds of time into huge reflective mounds which make light dance on the valleys below. Great forests of trees are off to the right. The trees are only 4 feet tall, but 20 feet wide. Stainless steel leaves hang from their bubble gum branches as pink and black steam spews from their exposed roots. The air stings with the scent of stale oysters and rotting, 3 day old, MacDougals BigMuck's. There is still no sign of civilization. The 12" CRT on Xaphod's shoulder starts up: "This is David Halfmind. Tomorrow on 'Good Morning Idiots', we'll discuss herpes, the death penalty, and aerobics at the office. We'll also be talking with Yassir Arrafat about fashions for hot climates . In addition, we'll have some wonderful holiday recipes from the Ayatollah Khomieni. Also, don't miss our special feature, 'A trip to the Police Morgue', which we'll show right after the weather report."] Gillian: Ugh, how awful. Martin: Thats what I keep telling you. Xaphod: Wow, what a great place for a vacation. Arnold Lint: Yah, if you enjoy misery. ["The Hitch Hikers Guide to the Net" lists Netrothea as being in the top 10 places frequented by masochists. The wretched climate and unfriendly people (who used to inhabit the place) made Netrothea about as much fun as a spinal tap performed with a boat hook. Netrothea's popularity waned as more and more places of vastly inferior quality were either discovered or created. When these new, modern, haunts-for-the-very-sick hit the market, old establishments (like Netrothea) were doomed. The Netrothean government tried to boost tourist trade by offering 'Club Mud' vacations to Netrothea's famous 'Bile Bog', but it was to no avail.] Martin: I can't even enjoy misery, I hate this place too. Rod: Quiet! Xaphod: Lets go over there. (Arnold Lint and crew make their way around the 20 foot wide trees, past the 40 foot tall monolith, under the stopwatch draped over the towel rack, and over the 10 foot diameter pimple. They finally arrive at a door set into the ground. A stuffed penguin stands by the door, on it's head is a button labeled "Ring for Verbal Abuse". Etched into the door are the words: "X = 101010 Copyrighted by Deep Thought, so bug off".) Arnold Lint: One-Zero-One-Zero-One-Zero? What does it mean? Xaphod: I don't know? Gillian: Should we press the button? Rod: Might as well. Xaphod: (Trying to open the door) Yah, the door's locked anyway. Arnold, why don't YOU press the button. Arnold Lint: Thank you very much, I think not. Martin: All right, I'll do it. (Martin presses the button, the door flies open, and a man pops out to great the Infinity crew. He is dressed in a business suit and sports a "Stupidity is it's own reward" button on his jacket.) Man: Well, what do you want you smelly, squirming insignificant vermin? Rod: We wanted to get in the door . . . who are you? Man: Oh, I'm Flarg Brittashik, awfully nice to meet you. Xaphod: (Confused) You're names' what? Flarg: FLARG BRITTASHIK, what are deaf as well as stupid? What a bunch of mindless, horrific oafs! Arnold Lint: Look you, just let us in the door and then push off!! Flarg: Why didn't you say so, follow me. (Flarg descends down the stairs, the rest follow. The stairs form a spiral, with a half-gainer twist, descending at an incredible rate to the interior of Netrothea. The stairway is lit by the glow from hallibut fished out of the sea around the nearby nuclear power plant.) Rod: Where are we going? Flarg: WHERE ARE WE GOING?! What a perfectly stupid question. We're obviously going down you sickening, malodorous pervert! Gillian: Do you realize that you're insulting us, and then the next moment being polite to us? Flarg: Oh, am I? I hadn't noticed. Rod: Well it's bloody anoying, mate. Flarg: Well, tough rocko's if I do, you wiper of other people's behinds! [The act of wiping other peoples behinds, according to "The Hitch Hikers Guide to the Net", was once considered a quite honorable profession in certain areas of the Net. In fact, many of the old regimes went so far as to have Royal Behind Wipers (or RBW's for those readers used to TLA's - three letter acronyms) whose sole task it was to walk around behind his or her appointed monarch with toilet paper in hand and perform the specified duty. Although this may seem an unpopular job, the pay was quite good. As such, positions as Royal 'Pooper Scoopers' were often granted based on tournaments. These tournaments resembled the earth's olympics except for two facets. First, all events (actually, they only lasted for one event) were fought to the death. And second, any event thought up had to envolve the creative use of human excrement. ] Martin: You know, I would have thought any place as awful as this might have been amusing to me. But it's just as bad as the rest of the Net. Good thing I'm just an android and don't have to ponder the reasons why the Net is as it is. I can just be content knowing that it can only get worse. Xaphod: One more word out of you, and I'll go at your memory banks with a chainsaw!!! ******************** End Of Part 5 ******************** What will Arnold Lint and the crew of the Infinity find in Netrothea? Will Flarg Brittashik insult them to distraction? Or are the already distracted? Will Xaphod end up doing a lumberjack-job on Martin's memory banks? In the off chance of being told the answers to these, and other, ad-libbed questions . . . Tune in next time . . . same Net-time . . . same Net-channel. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Summary-line: 31-Dec SFL at SRI-CSL #SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #121 wrap-up issue Date: Friday, December 31, 1982 6:22AM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #121 wrap-up issue To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL *** EOOH *** Date: Friday, December 31, 1982 6:22AM From: SFL at SRI-CSL Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #121 wrap-up issue To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 31 Dec 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 121 Today's Topics: Misc - filk, puns in SF, Nathan Brazil's death toll, tribbles, best fanzine, bookstores, Lucasfilm device, Gilliand's latest, comics list is born, Childhood's End, etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 Dec 1982 11:58:34-EST From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX Subject: "filk" Unfortunately, the FANCYCLOPEDIA is severely dated, not to say having many errors even in its own time (e.g. its explanation of the development and exploitation of STEAM, which Lee Hoffman (who was involved) corrects in IN AND OUT OF \QUANDRY/ (edited by yhos)). "Filk" is not used as an abbreviation for "filksong"; it's either a transitive verb (meaning very similar to "parody") or an abbreviation for "filksing" ("The filk last night was getting \very/ -ose, so I crashed.") (It has also been used as an adjective with malapropish intent, e.g. "It were very filk out last night.") ------------------------------ Date: Mon 27 Dec 82 13:38:58-EST From: Bob Krovetz Subject: puns in SF I have recently finished the hugo-winning story "Riders of the Purple Wage" by Philip Jose Farmer. The story is full of puns, and it got me wondering about what other SF stories are especially punny. The following ones come to mind: The Flying Sorcerers by Larry Niven and David Gerrold Callahans Crosstime Saloon by Spider Robinson Time Travelers, Stricly Cash by Spider Robinson The Magic of Xanth series by Piers Anthony A Loint of Paw by Isaac Asimov (in "Asimov's Mysteries") The Ferdinand Feghoot series that used to be in F&SF (a collection of these was published entitled (I think) "The Compleat Feghoot") In addition, I remember reading a story by Spider Robinson (I think it was in Analog) which had an absolutely TERRIBLE pun regarding P.J. Farmer's Riverworld series. Does anyone know the reference? I'm interested in works that either have a lot of puns or in which the point of the story rests on a pun (as in A Loint of Paw). ------------------------------ Date: 15 Dec 82 10:17:52-PST (Wed) From: decvax!sultan!dag at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: Nathan Brazil's Death Toll In reply to the comment that Nathan Brazil had topped anyone else in death toll: =~ Nathan Brazil did not "kill" all of the non-wellworld inhabitants. He altered (eliminated) the equation in which they existed. This did not eliminate their souls, though. When the well was repaired and the equations re-established, the souls found themselves in new exsistances. I believe that they even remembered what they had been previously. This was done in order to prevent the universe from being irrevocably destroyed. Even with this in mind, he was reluctant to do it, whereas Tarkin and Vader enjoyed (or seemed to enjoy) what they were up to. You don't see Vader running away from those who want him to destroy the rebel alliance. ~= Consider though, one "other" that has not been mentioned... Gypsy! He shows all of the important attributes of a Jedi. Like Obie-Wan he is able to make others forget that he is there and make them do things they would otherwise not do. I will not say what his connection is with the universe so as not to spoil it for those who have not yet read the Chalker "Wellworld" series, but it is much the same as the force. And he already knows Obie! Just entering my 2.8 cents worth, Daniel Glasser ...!decvax!sultan!dag ------------------------------ Date: 17 Dec 82 12:31:06-PST (Fri) From: harpo!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!pur-ee!uiucdcs!mcdaniel at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: tribbles, best fanzine, bookstores, - (nf) Moonstone's is at Pennsylvania Avenue and 22nd street NW. Smack dab next to Washington Circle and about 2 blocks from the Foggy Bottom-George Washington University subway stop. A really excellent place. Tim McDaniel (. . . pur-ee!uiucdcs!mcdaniel) ------------------------------ Date: 22 Dec 82 12:43:02-PST (Wed) From: harpo!eagle!mhuxt!mhuxa!mhuxh!mhuxm!pyuxjj!rlr at Ucb-C70 Subject: re: Lucasfilms device to impose speech on musical instrument Sounds a lot like an ordinary vocoder (NOT vocoRder) to me. A vocoder is a device (invented, by the way, at Bell Labs circa 1935) which imposes the audio spectrum of one sound onto another sound. What it does is to 1) analyze the spectrum of a sound (usually human speech) and 2) use this derived spectrum (really the set of amplitudes measured at a broad band of frequency ranges) to control the level of a series of bandpass filters through which a second sound is passed. (You can think of these bandpass filters as a sophisticated version of an audio equalizer with a large number of sliders, where the position of the sliders changes over time based on the audio spectra of a person's speech.) Simply put, it imposes the characteristics of one sound onto another, and can thus make virtually any sound with a broad enough spectrum and long enough duration sound like someone speaking. It is an extremely common musical/audio device, used by groups like Kraftwerk and (in a more SF-related vein) by the people who brought you Cattlecar Fascistica. The "voice" of the Cylon warriors ("By your command") was generated by imposing a human voice onto a sustained buzzer-like sound that does not waver in pitch or volume. This technique should not be confused with genuine computer speech synthesis, although it is often used to pass for the real thing (esp. in movies/TV). There is nothing unusual about Lucasfilm having such a device. ------------------------------ Date: 12/28/82 1255-EDT From: THOKAR at LL Subject: Gilliland's latest ``The Pirates of Rosinante'', the third book of the Rosinante series by Alexis Gilliland, continues in the same superb style of the previous two. The author's only novel length works to date tell the story of an O'Neil Colony, Mundito(small world) Rosinante, circa 2040 and its struggle for survival against budget cutbacks, ecological crisis, and multi-national-corporate and international politics. Rosinante is a world populated by its constuction crew plus several thousand deported, mostly male, Texan collage-student rioters; an equal number of Korean female immigrants that Japan was getting rid of, and several sentient computers, the most intriguing members of the community. The computers have achieved "person" statis by the legal fiction of incorpating themselves. Truly unique characters. In book one, ``The Revolution from Rosinante'', the mundito and its two sister colonies are being built by a construction firm owned by Charles Cantrell for a multi-corporation venture. Due to world recession, the corporations plan to default on the projects to minimize losses. One mundito, in mid-construction, is destroyed by rioting, unpaid construction workers. Another has barely been started. Only Rosinante is habitable. Thus, burdened with the outcast Texans and Koreans, Rosinante decides its only hope to recoup its losses is to go it alone. Book two deals with Rosinante's break from earth. It adds new players to the game and focuses on the problems of creating a new national culture. The lead computer, Corporate Skaskash, in its personification of Bogart from ``Casablanca'', is the "brains" of outfit. In the latest book Cantrell, governor of the new nation, works to defend his coloney from the Japanese Space Navy, who have been pirating industrial production. The most straight-foreward action book of the three, it offers a host of technical solutions to Rosinante's political problems. A fast-paced read and richly enjoyable. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Dec 1982 1245-PST From: Henry W. Miller Subject: A new list is borne... A new list is being formed: COMICS-LOVERS@SRI-NIC This list will attempt to cover all aspects of of the comics, a subsection that has been sorely neglected by SF-LOVERS (No downplay on that list; it is merely that comics fans represent only a small faction of that list.) For the time being, this list will be an immediate distribution list, although I can soon see it growing into a digest. So, send your ideas to COMICS-LOVERS@SRI-NIC. If you wish to subscribe, send then to COMICS-LOVERS-REQUEST@SRI-NIC. Note: if you subscribe soon enough, I'll clue you in on what is planned between Superman and Lois Lane. Comically yours, -HWM ------------------------------ Date: 28 Dec 1982 15:29:51 EST (Tuesday) From: Drew M. Powles Subject: Childhood's End To Speaker: Oops! You're right.....not centaurs, but satan-like creatures. However, my original point is still true, the children did not leave the earth in spaceships......the aliens did. dmp ------------------------------ Date: 29 December 1982 02:53:46-PST (Wednesday) From: bothner%Shasta at Sumex-Aim Subject: "Fans" vs. "readers" My image of the term "fan" differs somewhat from that of ...!eagle!mhuxt!mhux1!macrev (I wish people would sign their contributions -at the end- with human names or even nicknames), at least as it applies to science fiction. "Reading" is an essentially passive activity, whereas a fan is someone who engages in fan activity (fanac). Admittedly there are fans who read uncritically, and others who hardly read at all, though I contend that most "real" fans steer the middle course. (Of course, these days it seems that fandom is being swamped by the media fans who seem not to read at all. These fall into a different category. Even "sf-lovers" isn't immume, as evinced by this month's pointless, longwinded and repetitious "Star Bores" discussion.) Fanac is some subset of, say: - Publishing, reading or contributing to fanzines (e.g. sf-lovers). - Attending and possibly helping to run conventions. - Taking part in other social interaction between fans, such as being a member of a science fiction club or corresponding with other fans. (fen? or is that an obsolete term?) The point of all this is that fandom is a place to meet people (not necessarily in the flesh) who share interests with you. And not just sf, since there will be many correlations among interests - all of you should be aware of the big overlap between people interested in sf and those interested in computers! And if not, their interests, even if you don't share them, are at least likely to be ... interesting! This is because the incidence of boring or shallow people in fandom is a lot less than that of the general population. In conclusion, my connotations of the term "fan" are a lot more postitive than the general (non-sf) use of the term would imply, and they have nothing to do with the amount or selectivity of one's reading. --Per Bothner ------------------------------ Date: 29 Dec 1982 11:39:53-EST From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX Subject: definitions--reader vs fan:net.sf-lovers As one of the most active fans on this list I think it's fair to say that ...!macrev's distinction between SF "readers" and SF "fans" is totally at odds with current usage. Certainly there are Trekkies, Star Warts, and even (to foin a craze) Blakies around the fringes of SF fandom; they constitute a continuing problem (not just because of the derided lack-of-critical-sense but also because a significant fraction of them aren't housebroken), but to the extent that they behave as macrev describes they have very little to do with the 10,000 or so active fans in this country. We call most of these people "fringefans"; perhaps (further deriving from the above naming convention) non-fans could refer to them as "fannies"? ( -) ------------------------------ Date: 30 Dec 1982 0908-EST From: RG.JMTURN.MIT-OZ at Mit-Mc Subject: Fans and fen I've seen the flaming about Harper's turn into an attack on fans, and I thought I'd get my two cents in. Talking about fans as a group is a mistake. There are fringe fans, media fans, and trufen. There are people who just go to the conventions, people who belong to a fan club, and people who are heavily involved in the regional and national fanish networks. You can no more categorize the preferences and tastes of such a diverse group than you could the public in general. I think that the people who have been flaming so heavily against fandom are afraid that any identification with it will "taint them" in the eyes of mundanes. I'm proud to be a fan! I put long hours into my responsibilities to my local group, and enjoy it. If someone wants to call what I do pap, fine. But take a good look at what you're rejecting. Before you dismiss fandom out of hand as a bunch of idiots with blasters, consider some of the other things fandom and fanish groups do. I mean, just in the last month, I've helped enter text for a anthology, a songbook, and an SF index. I've participated in planning sessions of a con, and other things too numerous to mention. If someone thinks going to poetry readings is a better use of my time, I'll let them have my seat anyway. FIAGDH, James ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 30 December 1982 15:43-EST From: Vince Fuller Subject: [coar.umass: Grossberg and Japan] Date: 2 Dec 82 00:57-EDT (Thu) From: the Golux To: HUMAN-NETS at MIT-MC Re: Grossberg and Japan O lord! Can't we dispense with the arms race before we start the brain race? I just read through my copy of Brunner's ``The Shockwave Rider'' for about the tenth time, and it raised some questions in my mind (collaterally triggered by a question about the impact of micros). In the book, the hardware foundation for the net is rarely referred to, and is either a terminal or the pleasantly ill-defined 'Fedcomps' when it *is* mentioned. Of people who have read the book, I ask: Does the culture Brunner portrays seem reasonable (i.e., a viable possible future), or is it off the wall? How does the burgeoning micro market impact the development of his society? If you believe his future is possibly ahead (please stipulate for this question), do you think personal micros will be `part' of the net, serve as mere terminals, or have no connection to the net at all? Will their influence deteriorate as time passes and mainframes get better and more readily accessible? (yes, yes - I know I forgot to ask about Naomi!) For those who have not read the book, I recommend it very highly. It forms a *very* interesting juxtaposition with Spinrad's ``A World Between'', as far as the use of computers as a communication medium goes. (Spinrad's book also rates quite high in my estimation.) ken coar.umass@udel-relay ------------------------------ Date: 30 Dec 82 9:00:02-PST (Thu) From: hplabs!intelqa!omsvax!bb at Ucb-C70 Subject: re: sf puns The story which involves the pun of the Farmers daughter (P.J. Farmer) and the time traveling salesman is: Have you heard the one ... ? Spider Robinson Analog June 1980 p. 68 The story concerns Tall Tales night at Callahan's and includes far more than the final pun. A friend claims that the story has appeared in an anthology, but I don't have the reference. ------------------------------ Date: 31 Dec 1982 0300-PST Subject: The Ayes of Texas From: Alan R. Katz Suggested reading: In my opinion, one of the best SF books to come out in the past year is "The Ayes of Texas" by Daniel da Cruz. It takes place in the 1990's whenthe main character, a disabled WWII veteran turned billionair gives a group of disabled vets unlimited funds to make the retired battleship USS Texas into a modern warship in time for Independence Day, 2000. However, it turns out the ship is needed in 1998 to (sort of) single handedly fight the Russians. There are lots of neat weapons of the future including particle beam weapons and the technical details seem to be correct. There is plenty of action. I have never heard of the author before, but the books says he is currently Professor of Anthropology at Miami University, and served aboard the USS Texas in World War II. If you can find it in your sf section, get it. Alan ------------------------------ Date: 30 Dec 82 9:26:26-PST (Thu) From: decvax!genradbo!mitccc!jmturn at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: puns in SF The Riverworld pun comes from another story by Spider, a Callahan's story to boot. Don't remember the title. Another good book for puns is Stardance, by Jeane and Spider. James ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************