BABYL OPTIONS: Version: 5 Labels: Note: This is the header of an rmail file. Note: If you are seeing it in rmail, Note: it means the file has no messages in it.  1,, Summary-line: 2-JAN "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #1 Date: 2 JAN 1981 1108-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #1 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI *** EOOH *** Date: 2 JAN 1981 1108-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #1 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Friday, 2 Jan 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 1 Today's Topics: SF Books - Xanth Trilogy & Unpleasant Universes & Plot/Title Request & Bicameralism Query & Bored of the Rings & Future History ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 01 Jan 1981 1359-PST From: Richard Pattis Subject: Pot-Shots The Xanth trilogy: While I found the two books I read amusing, I'm afraid I was turned off by the notion of a woman whose intelligence was inversely proprotional to her beauty. Maybe I'm just a little oversensitised. Rich ------------------------------ Date: 31 December 1980 1053-EST (Wednesday) From: R.Kamesh Subject: Engineers vs. problem I just read The Fountains of Paradise and was disappointed in the story. Personally, I think it has been quite some time (14 years?, but then I am an old man!) since I read sf for its gigantic ideas or for its prognostications about the future. For this reason, I have found Arthur Clarke increasingly dull reading, the last book of his that I positively enjoyed qualmlessly reading and rereading being Childhood's End. In this sense tFoP is probably 1954-ish but lacks the peculiar excitement that only bad story lines can generate. One aspect of reading Clarke that I appreciate is that when he uses characters from India or Sri Lanka, he actually creates believable names and occasionally believable scenarios for their behaviour. I have found myself climbing walls and executing other bizarre behaviour on encountering names that had obviously been constructed (the most egregious one being `Subchundrum' from a fairly popular sf writer whose name I forget - Poul Andersen, maybe) and had been constructed wrong. Probably the best analogy I could draw would be writing a historical novel of a French nobleman named Petersky whose native language is German and is described as having an estate in Yugoslavia. I cant recall details, but I would fault Silverberg, Zelazny, Ellison (?), among others for such blunders. (Zelazny, in particular, screws up Hindu mythology so badly that I could barely make my way through `Lord of Light' the first time I read it.) Clarke on the other hand can be a pleasure. When he does make possible errors (no Buddhist ruler is likely to name his son `Kalidasa') there are plausible scenarios (some place in the book, he says that the King was being influenced by some Hindu swami for sometime in his reign). ------------------------------ Date: 30 Dec 1980 0943-EST From: Paul Dickson via Subject: Pigs in space and Bicameralism I just read the January '81 OMNI (always a quick read) and there are two rather interesting interviews that reminded me of some obscure SF stories. The first article was an interview with Robert Bussard (inventor of the Bussard Ramjet), who is now in the business of building small fusion reactors. He thinks the "mainline" fusion people are wasting their time studying plasma dynamics and supercon- ductors. He has come up with a Tokamak design that does not need superconductors, and is much smaller and cheaper. Although Bussard's "Riggatron" is not so small that you could power your car with it (you can ferry it by cargo plane however), it reminded me of a series of juvenile stories, the central char- acter of which was a talking pig named Freddie. (This has nothing to do with "Pigs In Space".) I don't recall if these books were even filed under SF in the library (this was something like 17 years ago), but they fit anyone's definition of it. All the animals on this farm could talk (no, it isn't Animal Farm either), and the farmer was a crazy inventor. He had an atomic powered station wagon, which is why the Riggatron story reminded me of it. In one episode, the characters build a rocket ship a take off for other worlds. Something goes wrong and they return to Earth, but think that they have continued on to Mars (or wherever). You can figure out the rest. Does anyone remember the author of these Freddie stories? The second article is about Julian Jaynes and his theory of the history of consciousness. He claims that before 2000 BC humans were not conscious the way we think (oops) of it, and the two brain hemispheres did not work together as one unit. The "people" lived in the left side, and the "gods" lived in the right side. When the right half sent a message to the left, this was perceived as "voices" telling the person what to do. When people learned to coordinate the two halves, the "gods" stopped talking, and that is why we don't hear from them the way the ancients did. Jaynes bases this theory on old parts of the Bible and on the Illiad. It is all very interesting (read the article), and a good topic for cocktail parties. It reminds me of a story I read in Analog several years ago about a concert pianist with a split brain. The advantage was that each half of the brain controlled one half of the body, so he could play difficult piano music, each half controlling one hand, without getting confused. The disadvantage was that there was little communication between the two halves, and the quiet half was always getting the dominant half (the one that controlled speech) in trouble while he was asleep. It turned out that the quiet half was telepathic, however, and got a telepathic girl friend. The dominant half was in love with her too, but she only had eyes for the quiet half. So the hero loses the girl to the other half of his own brain. Can anyone think of any other stories in which bicameralism plays an important role? ------------------------------ Date: 01 Jan 1981 1146-PST From: Don Woods Subject: re: Bored of the Rings & Adventure I'm not sure where the practice of comparing gems to plovers' eggs began, but as author of the line in Adventure I can vouch for my indeed being influenced by the line in BotR. Their use of the word "spelunker", however, is no big deal -- English is English! Note, by the way, that plovers don't have particularly large eggs, but even a small egg is an unusual size for an emerald. (And I suppose an emerald is an unusual size for a plover's egg, too.) -- Don. ------------------------------ Date: 31 Dec 1980 0535-PST From: WMartin at OFFICE Subject: My error (sniffle!) Cringe! I had hoped no one would notice that! I was writing the message without the book at hand, and I said "milennia" when I should have said "centuries"! The chronology goes up to 7100 AD or so, and Flandry is born in 3000. The Polesotechnic stories run in the 2300 and up area, as I recall. Oh, the shame of it all... Don't you love seeing your errors spread out for the entire world to see? Shamefacedly, Will ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 3-JAN "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #2 *** EOOH *** Date: 3 JAN 1981 0955-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #2 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Saturday, 3 Jan 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 2 Today's Topics: SF Books - Unpleasant Universes & Bicameralism & Freddie the Pig & Quantum SF Series & Poul Pronunciation & Xanth, On Spoilers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 02 JAN 1981 1424-EST From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Zelazny's Indian deities were not intended necessarily to exactly match their originals; the point of the book was that these were strictly mortal Terrans who had taken excess advantage of an unusual situtation to establish themselves in positions of extreme power (rather like the crew in Niven's A GIFT FROM EARTH, only more so). I think Zelazny deliberately shows and mocks this when, after Sam knocks off some of the "gods", he describes several of them attempting to replace the missing ones (who were among the most powerful "gods") and how awkward they look doing it. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jan 1981 1723-PST From: CSD.BOTHNER at SU-SCORE Subject: Fountains of Paradise My two bits about "Fountains of Paradise": Though hardly surprised at it winning the Hugo, it did not nothing to convince me of the incorruptibility of voters. ("Clarke is a good guy, so he deserves a going-away Hugo.") I mean, all these people couldn't actually have LIKED it?!? (I voted it bottom of the list: The last 100-odd pages about the rescue attempt were the most boring I have read in a long time.) --Per Bothner ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jan 1981 1311-PST From: WMartin at Office-3 Subject: Split Brains Well, first you peel the brains, then dip them in beaten egg and fry gently... OOPS! Wrong reference! Split brains occur in JEM, where a split-brain translator is a prime character, and in Silverberg's story "House of Double Minds", which discusses purposefully splitting brains to develop the non- verbal Right's intuitive processes; the communication from Right to Left is much like what was described in the message about gods speaking from the right half to the people in the left. This story is in "The Feast of St. Dionysus" collection. ( I believe I've gotten the titles near right, but I'm running on memory and the tank is near empty... ) Will Martin ------------------------------ Date: 3 JAN 1981 0220-EST From: PROCEP at MIT-AI (Eirikur Hallgrimsson) In response to Paul Dickson's request for the name of the author of the many 'Freddy the pig' books, (which I remember fondly) -- his name is (was?) Walter R. Brooks. I started reading the entire series because of 'Freddy and the Flying Saucer Plans' when I was in the first or second grade. There are some wonderfully handled fantasy concepts underlying even the more mundane (huh! can't think of a mundane example) ones. The sort of late 1940's rural enviornment in which almost all animals think and talk (in secret) is quite engaging. The cast and scope clearly grew in the telling, over a period of some years. I do not have my own copies, having read library editions myself. My guess as to publisher would be Harcourt but I am not clear on that. At the time I was hot enough on the series that I looked up and read Brook's other books one of which, 'The Clockwork Twin' is closely tied into the Freddy series. I wonder why it was not labeled as such? If anyone knows the publisher and availability info -- I'd greatly appreciate hearing it. Freddy fancied himself as Sherlock and put me on to Holmes, tried his hand at poetry and put me on to Shakespeare. --Eirikur ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jan 1981 2345-PST From: Stuart McLure Cracraft Subject: quantum series list? Does anyone have a list of the Quantum SF series other than Varley's Ophiuchi Hotline and Persistence of Vision collection? ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jan 1981 0220-EST From: RDD at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: Quantum Science Fiction The Quantum Science Fiction Series is an international publishing venture being run under the imprint of the Dial Press (James Wade Publishers). The current editor for the series is D. R. Bentsen. Each book in the series is reviewed and passed on by a panel of two judges, Isaac Asimov and Ben Bova. According to the blurbs printed with some of the series books, each Quantum title is simultaneously published in the United States, England, the Middle East, Asia, and all other major language areas. Unfortunately, they do not follow the practice of listing the current titles in the series in the front of the book. The following list has been pieced together from their blurbs which usually say something to the effect of the series "... has included or will include works by ... ". 1. The Ophiuchi Hotline by John Varley. 2. In the Ocean of the Night by Gregory Benford. 3. The Far Call by Gordon Dickson. 4. The Persistence of Vision by John Varley. 5. Stardance by Spider and Jeanne Robinson. 6. Kinsman by Ben Bova. 7. The Snow Queen by Joan Vinge. (?) 8. Songmaster by Orson Scott Card. As far as I know this list includes all books in the series to date. A forthcoming book by David Gerrold is also mentioned as part of the series. All are novels with the exception of Varley's Persistence of Vision collection. Note that substantial portions of Stardance, Kinsman, and Songmaster have seen prior magazine publication. Also note that Kinsman is the prequel to Bova's well received novel, Millenium. I am sure of each entry except for Vinge's The Snow Queen. My edition from the SF Book Club does not mark the book as part of the Quantum series. On the other hand, it does carry the Dial Press imprint, the editor she thanks in the acknowledgements is Quantum Series editor Bensen, and they have claimed that a book by Vinge is or would be part of the series for a long time. Therefore I have listed it as a possible member of the series and wonder if there might not be a story behind that novel. Anyone know? Cheers, Roger ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jan 1981 1723-PST From: CSD.BOTHNER at SU-SCORE Subject: Odds and ends 1) As a Norwegian, I resent the comment that only Scandinavians can correctly pronounce "Poul". In general, only DANES can correctly pronounce Danish words (or would want to...) 2) Thanks for the comments about Xanth. I'll probably try out the first volume in paperback, since the Book Club version isn't that good a deal (6.50). Now to find some other books to fill out my 4-book obligation... 3) Some of these comments may be a bit out of date. However, SAIL has been down from Christmas until the last half-hour of 1980 (disk head crash followed by trying to restore files from 200-odd incremental backup tapes...), and I just got a slew of SFL today. Although I use SCORE for SFL, it seems that SFL is remailed via SAIL... --Per Bothner ------------------------------ Date: 01 Jan 1981 1212-PST From: Don Woods Subject: re: ACW's plea And please, don't anyone else give away the plot. The spoiler warnings don't help: have YOU ever stopped reading SF-lovers when you reached the spoilers? Frequently. Have you no self-control? Usually, of course, if I haven't read the book in question it's because I have no intention of doing so, so ignoring the spoilers saves me what would be unin- teresting reading. But sometimes, like when people reviewed the re-release of Close Encounters, I avoid the spoilers until I've seen the work, and then go back to the archives to see what was said. -- Don. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 7-JAN "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #3 *** EOOH *** Date: 7 JAN 1981 0846-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #3 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Wednesday, 7 Jan 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 3 Today's Topics: Administrivia, SF Movies - Day the Earth Stood Still Sequel, SF Books - Foreign Language SF & Halley's Comet & Budrys Reviews & Unpleasant Universes, TESB - Music & More Plot Theories ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 Jan 1981 0220-EST From: The Moderator Subject: Administrivia - Irregular distribution schedule Over the last week, new memory installation, problems with our air conditioning system, and other hardware difficulties across the network have made it impossible for me to maintain the regular distribution schedule or to promptly answer all of your requests. The situation is improving, but some of these problems will continue for the next several days. Please bear with us as these problems are corrected. For people wondering if they have missed any issues, please note that today's issue is only the third issue of 1981. Also note that volume 2 ended with a total of 181 issues. Requests for missing issues can be sent to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@MIT-AI. They will be answered as quickly as possible. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jan 1981 1028-PST From: Stuart McLure Cracraft Subject: screenplay From the AP newswire: HOLLYWOOD (AP) - Ray Bradbury will write a contemporary sequel to 20th Century-Fox's 1951 box-office hit "The Day the Earth Stood Still." Bradbury will write several story lines, one of which will be selected for completion as a screenplay by another writer. The original Fox release told of an alien who arrived on earth and threatened immediate destruction of the planet unless war is abolished. (No doubt this will turn out to be another loser.) ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jan 1981 1051-PST From: Daul at OFFICE Subject: SF Written In Foreign Languages Does anyone know of a source for SF written in foreign languages in the US? If one could get more specific...the S. F. Bay Area? I am interested in Russian, Japanese and Chinese. Thanks, --Bill ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jan 1981 22:42:47 EST From: David Mankins Subject: Further Adventures of Halley's Comet I am currently reading "The Further Adventures of Halley's Comet." Its not science fiction, but from the way its packaged you can't really tell, and Tom Robbins says such a nice thing about it on the back cover that you might decide "What the hell?" like I did. Cute, but no cigar. The writer can't decide whether he wants to fail at imitating Thomas Pynchon or fail at imitating Tom Robbins. I'd rate it as slightly below "Schroedinger's Cat", by Robert Anton Williams. That is, lots of promise, but sort of disappointing... ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jan 1981 10:02 PST From: Pettit at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: Arthur Clarke & Sri Lanka Were you aware that Arthur Clarke used to live in Colombo, Sri Lanka? I'd imagine you would know (I gather you are from India), but since you don't mention it in your message, maybe you didn't. A friend of mine whose father is a physics professor used to live there too, and Clarke was a family-friend of theirs. So naturally this would account for his being well-acquainted (at least for a Westerner) with Indian names and society. Teri [ People interested in reading more about Clarke's Sri Lanka experiences should see his autobiographical book "The View from Serandip". -- RDD ] ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jan 1981 1418-PST From: Stuart McLure Cracraft From: Don Woods Subject: Budrys' Book Reviews BOOK REVIEWS By Algis Budrys (c) 1980 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service) Harlan Ellison is a phenomenon of general American letters who happens to have gotten his start in the generic science fiction media, and continues to be identified with the field. That's fair enough; the SF magazines still publish the majority of his work. But that's more a reflection of the breadth to which the media have grown than it is a circumscription of Ellison. He's a short story writer by nature, inclination, and track record. His comments on the human situation are savage, propelled by the same ferocity that makes him a pyrotechnically demanding personality. The ferocity at times comes out as a yammer. And though he proclaims "honesty" and "realism," he comes not much closer to those ideals than most writers do. What he does do is approach them from the direction of the "New Romanticism," the emerging school of discourse in which comfort is offered by declaring over and over again that everything is mere- tricious and the Establishment is founded on betrayal, that only the psychically crippled, crippled by the Establishment, conserve gentleness, insight, and virtue. Fair enough again. All of us have been dumped on often enough by the stupid and vicious so that this message needs to be spoken on our account from time to time. This time, it's in "Shatterday" (Houghton Mifflin, $11.95), Ellison's latest collection. As usual a beautiful book - since Ellison also rides herd roughshod over all aspects of production, and has excellent graphic taste - it contains 16 recent stories, each with an extended introduction (except for one). If you are unfamiliar with this man's work, you owe it to yourself to sample it here. If you know it, you also know that this preceding brief description falls short of encompassing the anfractuous power of this artist. - Interesting failures: Poul Anderson's "The Devil's Game" (Pocket Books, $2.50 paperback), in which a cast of seven characters, gathered by an eccentric and deeply evil millionaire on a Caribbean island, vie for the $1 million prize that will go to the survivor. Is the millionaire in fact guided by a very cleverly realized demon, or is this one of those rare instances of writing by an SF author in which the purported fantasy element is actually a reflection or real madness in the protagonist? Richard Cowper's "Out There Where the Big Ships Go" (Pocket Books, $2.50 paperback) is a collection of five stories by a notable new English novelist ("The Road to Corlay"). His shorter work, while as richly textured as his long, and based on equally ingenious and appealing propositions, is not for the reader who wants his short story plots to go zippety-zap. Cowper takes his time getting from A to B; the journey is usually far more interesting than the destination, but well worth it in some cases. - "In" Book of the Year so far: "Far From Home" (Doubleday, $9.95), a collection of short stories by Walter S. Tevis, author of "The Hustler" and "The Man Who Fell to Earth." The collection divides strikingly between old SF magazine pieces and much newer, less SFnal, more academic work. All of the latter are ambitious, often psychically effective stories. Some appear to be alternative versions of the same idea. "Rent Control" and "A Visit From Mother" are outright tours de force. - A Disaster: "The Science Fictionary" ($16.95), by Ed Naha, is described as "An A-Z Guide to the World of SF Authors, Films and TV Shows." It comes from Seaview Books, an imprint of Playboy Enterprises International, and appears to be an attempt to get away from the unfortunate connotations of Playboy Press and the thud-and-blunder of Playboy Press's line of SF fiction paperbacks. The far more relevant misfortune is that this attempt to cover such broad ground in a comparatively unthick volume appears to be sown with superficialities and inaccuracies. Not the least of these is the first sentence of Naha's prefatory "brief note": "The Science Fictionary is written entirely in English." Anyone who writes "Borrowing a page from the Bible, (Dr. Phibes) deter- mines that each malefactor will be dispatched to his or her respective Valhalla..." is in more trouble than he appears to be able to understand. - Good reprint: Harry Harrison's "Make Room! Make Room!" (Ace, $2.25 paperback), the 1966 novel on which the movie "Soylent Green" was based. Harrison is no prose master either, but he knows how to build a scenario, and his glimpses of life in the overcrowded, polluted urban world of the 21st century are even more chillingly likely today than they were when first promulgated. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jan 1981 at 0250-CST From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ TESB MUSIC BOOK ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ...is distinctly better than the one for the first SW film, and, if I recall rightly, no increase in price. There are more pieces (tho the Main Title theme is an exact repeat from the first book) and 4 rather than 3 lines of music per page. "Obi Wan's Theme" or "the Force Theme" is now officially titled "May the Force Be With You". It, the Main Title Theme, The Imperial March (Darth Vader's Theme), Yoda's Theme, and Han Solo and the Princess are in straightforward piano versions, with accompanying chord names (possibly for guitar or chord organ, but too outre for even my 21-chord autoharp, darn it). The Finale has 3 rather than 2 staves per line, with indication of which instruments carry which segments, and the source themes identified as they occur. Nice. ------------------------------ DUFFEY@MIT-AI 01/07/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last message in this digest. It makes another suggestion regarding the nature of the force. People who are not familiar with TESB may not wish to read any further. ------------------------------ RVS@MIT-AI 12/28/80 04:03:30 By the way, wouldn't it be interesting if in a future SW episode Yoda were to tell Luke that "there is no dark side of the Force, really; in fact, it's all dark". (credit to Jim Merino) - "Sam" Sjogren ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 8-JAN "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #4 *** EOOH *** Date: 8 JAN 1981 0820-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #4 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Thursday, 8 Jan 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 4 Today's Topics: SF Books - The Sirian Experiments & Comment on Budrys & Libraries, SF Games - Magic, TESB - More Plot Theories ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 06 Jan 1981 1440-PST From: Jim McGrath Review of THE SIRIAN EXPERIMENTS. By Doris Lessing. Knopf. $10.95 by Robie Macauley (c) 1980 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service) ( Robie Macauley, a novelist and former fiction editor of Playboy, is now an editor in a Boston publishing house. ) With this, the third volume in Doris Lessing's "Canopus in Argos" tetraology, she comes to the three-quarter mark in her universal fable of good and evil. The first novel was a kind of overview of millions of years of Earth's history seen as a struggle between the forces of galactic empires. The second was much simpler, a story of distressed love between a princess of an ideal kingdom and a king of a military state. In "The Sirian Experiments," Lessing has returned to the imperial-historical theme with a novel about Earth's disasters. It may well be an example of the fallacy of imitative form-as a novel, the book itself is a kind of disaster. First, there is the narration, which is carried on by an extra-terrestrial creature named Ambien 11, a kind of galactic supergrade bureaucrat who tells her story with all the fictional style and exuberance of a Department of Agriculture report. Then, there is the subject, an exhaustive account of the series of failed biosociological experiments taking place over millennia on the planet Rohanda or Shikasta (Earth). This is a combination that manages to avoid practically every pleasure and reward that can be produced by fiction. Rohanda, as we know from the first volume of the series, has long been an animal experimental station of the two galactic empires, Canopus and Sirius. The wise and good Canopus, represented by the character Klorathy in this novel, has performed its social and evolutionary attempts well. Sirius, something of an imitator, has had a lesser success. But, in the long course of time, there appears Shammat, the evil offspring of Puttiora, a pirate planet that engineers vast disturbances in both the creatures and geography of Rohanda- Shikasta. The influences of Canopus and Sirius wane. Trying to understand what's happening, Ambien 11 visits various Shikastan cities for some rather murky episodes in the Buck Rogers tradition, and at last goes home to Sirius to make her report. The final result of Shammat's wickedness, it seems, is that the white race has taken over domination of the Earth and has stamped it with an inflexible grid: "It was a pattern of owner- ship, a multiplication of the basic unit of the possession of land." Readers who have struggled this far through the books will recognize that Ambien 11 is echoing the long indictment of the white race produced by the trial of an Englishman named John Brent-Oxford in the first volume-and that is a clue to what is wrong with the whole enterprise, even when taken solely as a big morality lesson in hazy science-fiction wrappings: Lessing is obsessive. The books do not progress; they cycle through different scenes and conversations and return to the same verdicts. And, of course, if we are to place any credence in the science fiction rationale, there is no such thing on Earth as free will or morality. We are simply creatures of Shammat the evil. As Coleridge aptly said, "Whoever supermoralizes unmoralizes." Then there is another writer's remark that applies to "The Sirian Experiments" strictly as fiction. Doris Lessing, a splendidly verastile fiction writer on past evidence, seems to have lost sight of the truth in Chekhov's remark: "To tell about a drunken muzhik's beating his wife is incomparably harder than to compose a whole tract on 'the woman question."' ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jan 1981 1306-PST From: Craig W. Reynolds from III via Rand Subject: Budry's Ellison Review "He's a short story writer by nature..." Well, Harlan certainly does write stories, but its tasteless to comment on someone's tallness. Next time I see this Budry character I'm gonna punch him in the knee!. ------------------------------ Date: 29 December 1980 20:19 est From: JTurner.Coop at MIT-Multics About large SF libraries, the UMASS science fiction society has an open stack lending library which I have heard estimated at 20,000 books. I would personally guess more around 10k, but you never know... Hackito ergo sum, Wipe out entropy in our lifetime, Fandom is a way of life, James Turner ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jan 1981 0220-EST From: RDD at MIT-AI Subject: SF Games - Magic - On Rules for Roles People who have been following the fantasy Magic discussion may be interested in knowing that John (Web of Angels) Ford is doing a continuing series of review articles on fantasy gaming for Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine. The articles and issues are listed below. People interested in developing their own rules and procedures should look into the third article in particular. All of the articles have included a number of references for anyone who wants to look further into the subject. On Evenings Beyond the Fields We Know -- July 1979 On Playing Roles : A Second Look -- Sept 1980 On Playing Roles : A Third Look -- Dec 1980 ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jan 1981 0220-EST From: The Moderator Subject: SF Games - Magic - Turner's Magic Rules In SFL V2 #173, Jim Turner mentioned a system of magic rules that he has been developing. He has prepared a draft of his rules for anyone who may be interested in them. They are available from the file AI:DUFFEY;SFLVRS JTMAGE. Anyone who would like a copy of the rules but cannot obtain it should send a message to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@MIT-AI. A copy will be forwarded promptly. -- RDD ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jan 1981 09:13:28-PST From: E.jeffc at Berkeley Subject: Entropy and Black Holes As we all know, the Universe somehow exists, and the price for such existance is entropy. Matter and energy slowly but surely decay into ever higher states of disorderliness. Of course, entropy can be reduced locally, but always at the expense off greater entropy globally. At some time in the very distant future, entropy will have reached a maximum, and time will have ceased to have any meaning, as no more events will be possible. Entropy is a concept that is at the heart of any physical or philosphical model of our universe. It explains why a sugar cube dissolved in water will not, in any meaningful period of time, magically be formed again from the sugar molecules dissolved in the water. Entropy can never decrease in a closed system, it can't even remain constant in a dynamic system. What does this have to do with black holes? Well, the only information that can be infered about a block hole is its mass, angular momentum, and its charge. Also, current theories suggest that under the laws of quantum mechanics, black holes slowly evaporate into sub-atomic particles. The smaller the block hole, the faster it evaporates. Question: what can come out of a black hole which has been absorbing helium nuclei and some electro- magnetic radiation? Answer: protons. When matter goes into a black hole, all information about it is destroyed. When it boils away, the form in which it comes out in is random, but surely simple particles will prevail. Thus black holes provide the means for rev- ersing the single most important energy producing reaction in the universe: hydrogen fusion. What are the implications of this - especially if this entropy reversing process is utilized by intelligent beings????? - Jeff Cohen ------------------------------ DUFFEY@MIT-AI 01/08/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last message in this digest. It comments on the nature of the force. People who are not familiar with TESB may not wish to read any further. ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jan 1981 1746-EST From: Steven J. Zeve Subject: the force. I suspect that the force is neither light nor dark. The Force simply is. How you use it determines whether it is light or dark. steve z. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 9-JAN "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #5 *** EOOH *** Date: 9 JAN 1981 0833-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #5 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Friday, 9 Jan 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 5 Today's Topics: SF Books - Planetary Society & Libraries, SF TV - BBC HGttG, SF Theater - Frankenstein, SF Games - Magic ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 1 Jan 1981 0910-EST From: Paul Dickson via Subject: The Planetary Society What can anyone tell me about the Planetary Society? I have read the brochure, seen the list of notables on the "board of advisors", but am still not sure exactly what it is. Mention is made of a newsletter, thru which I will be kept informed of the latest hapennings in planetary research, but it doesn't say 1. How often this newsletter is to be published, or 2. How big it is. Is it an 85p monthly glossy or a 4p mimeoed fanzine that comes out at random intervals? ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jan 1981 1353-EST From: LS.MELTSNER at MIT-EECS Subject: Foreign fiction & Large Libraries Among the 35,000 volumes of fiction at MITSFS (amazing how that slipped in) there is a decent selection of foreign fiction. Most of the stuff we have is German or Italian, with a smattering of French, Japanese, Spanish, etc. I do not know if this distri- bution reflects our predjudices or the foreign market. One or two major publishers seem to offer near-simultaneous publication of foreign language editions of American SF. Still, most SF is english- language, and that which isn't, is often translated or plagiarized from english-language SF. We're not fans, we just read the stuff! Capt. Polaroid ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jan 1981 1035-EST From: Nigel Conliffe via Subject: HHGttG I just returned from spending Christmas in England, during which time I managed to see the first episode in the BBC-2 television series "The Hitchhikers Guide to The Galaxy". As far as one can judge from the first episode of the series, it is very well done and the producers and writers have made good use of the visual aspects of television to enhance the Guide; there are, even in the first show, an good number of purely visual scenes. The casting seems to be very good (Ford Prefect as the "eager young man", faintly reminiscent of a 1950's undergraduate, Arthur Dent as the confused, awfully middle-class Englishman and so forth) and the overall tone of the piece is gently sardonic. The special effects are good for British Television (slightly better than Dr Who), and the sets are very well done. The guide deserves a mention all of its own. It's about the size of a tricorder, in something like a large binocular case with the words "Don't Panic" printed in red on the outside. Opening the case reveals the book, a sort of handheld terminal, with a small display screen, a keyboard, and a voice. The computer graphics used by the guide are excellent, and there are many visual effects used as part of the Guide. Basically, it's a show worth seeing; I suspect that if we all write to our local TV stations, someone could be persuaded to import the show from the BBC in England. Nigel ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jan 1981 2120-PST From: Jim McGrath Culture - Theater review of Frankenstein By FRANK RICH c. 1981 N.Y. Times News Service NEW YORK - Certainly no expense has been spared in "Frankenstein," the new horror show that opened at the Palace Sunday night. This extravaganza boasts enough good actors, colossal sets and rafter- shaking special effects to equip a Shakespearean repertory company. But money is a neutral factor in the theater; it alone cannot create fun. In "Frankenstein," we're keenly aware of the cash, effort and talent that have been stirred into the brew, but we wait in vain for the final product to come to a boil. So many show-biz adapters have had their way with Mary Shelley's classic horror tale that one might assume it to be foolproof. Alas, Victor Gialanella, the author of the evening, seems determined to prove that it is not. This playwright has merged the most memorable scenes from James Whale's 1931 Hollywood version with random scraps from the 1816 Shelley novel only to end up with a talky, stilted mishmash that fails to capture either the gripping tone of the book or the humorous pleasure of the film. This "Frankenstein" has instead the plodding, preachy quality one associates with the lesser literary adaptations of public television. For what it's worth, Gialanella does appear to be in earnest. His script not only includes the expected set pieces - the stormy laboratory sequences and various murders - but it also regurgitates the Prometheus-inspired themes that underlined the Shelley original. This show's monster, like the one in the book, learns to talk - and once he does, he refuses to shut up. If nothing else, one leaves the theater firmly convinced that man should not usurp God's role as creator of the universe. What Gialanella fails to understand is that murders and messages become compelling only when they are harnessed to a thrilling story. As narrative, his "Frankenstein" is lead-footed. Much of the evening is given over to gabby scenes involving the many supporting characters who have been sketchily appropriated from the novel. It's impossible to tell who these nondescript people are without consulting either Shelley or the Playbill. When each of them is murdered in turn, the violence is simply too impersonal to be either scary or affecting. There isn't one death in "Frankenstein" that's remotely as horrifying as the most minor throat-slitting in "Sweeney Todd." The story's principal antagonists are meanwhile left to languish. As written here, Dr. Frankenstein is more an abstracted worry-wart than a man possessed, and not even that estimable actor David Dukes can bring him to fiery life. The monster is equally bland. Keith Jochim, who plays this potentially rich role, is not a campy tragedian like Boris Karloff, and he isn't witty like Frank Langella's Dracula or Peter Boyle's creature in Mel Brooks' "Young Frankenstein." Although elaborately made up with the requisite cranial fissures, Jochim lacks a commanding physical or vocal presence. He's just a beery lout in a Halloween costume. At least the scenes are plentiful, which allows for a large number of amusing set changes. The show's designers - Douglas W. Schmidt (scenery), Carrie F. Robbins (costumes and puppets), Jules Fisher and Robby Monk (lighting) - are first-rate. Working on the Palace's huge stage, which has been masked by tent-sized black curtains, they have created a creepy graveyard, a snowy Swiss landscape, Gothic interiors and a gargantuan laboratory full of Rube Goldberg-style contraptions. Tom Moore, the quick-witted director, has choreographed the sweeping movement of scenery and cast with a sure pictorial sense. It's not his fault that such worthy secondary players as John Glover, Dianne Wiest and Douglas Seale hardly register against all the smoke and fog. Bran Ferren's special audio-visual effects are also impressive by theatrical standards, although they cannot rival the wizardry he's brought to the film "Altered States." He's at his best with blizzards, lightning bolts and laboratory electrocutions. The elaborate conflagrations that close each act, however, look fake; they don't deliver nearly enough voltage to justify the work that has undoubtedly gone into them. This is probably not Ferren's fault. If special effects aren't tied to action and characters, the audience sees them as hardware rather than magic. Presumably someone involved with "Frankenstein" recognized this problem: A B-movie musical score (by Richard Peaslee) has been thrown on top of the show's other noise to announce the desired emotional effect of each scene. There are piercing organ riffs for the ostensibly scary moments, throbbing chords for "suspense" and even a mushy sentimental theme for the monster's friendly encounters with a blind hermit played by the inimitable John Carradine. Even so, we feel nothing except the disappointment that comes from witnessing an evening of misspent energy. "Frankenstein" may be the last word in contemporary theatrical technology, but its modern inventions are nothing without the alchemy of plain, old- fashioned drama. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jan 1981 0849-PST From: WMartin at Office-3 Subject: Slight correction I don't mean to be pedantic, but the word is "mana", not "manna"; of course, both are really transliterations, I believe. "Mana" is from some Polynesian languages, and means what you intend relating to magic. "Manna" is either a transliteration from Hebrew meaning the foodstuff which was divinely provided to the Israelites in the wilderness (I think Velikovsky said it was carbohydates created from the Venusian cometary tail, to be esoteric about this) or an English word from King James's time which was the translation of the Hebrew term. (My Biblical reference scholars are unreachable by phone at this instant, unfortunately.) Since the "manna" spelling is better known in this country, due to vague memories of people's confirmation classes or parochial schools, I am not surprised that the term "mana", which used to occur only in sociology/anthropology texts, and which has the similar pronunciation merely by coincidence, is confused with and is overwhelmed by the former. (I just checked my dictionary, which I should have done heretofore; "mana" is from the Hawaiian & Maori, while "manna" is from a Hebrew root word.) Regards, Will Martin ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 10-JAN "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #6 *** EOOH *** Date: 10 JAN 1981 0458-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #6 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Saturday, 10 Jan 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 6 Today's Topics: SF Books - Demon Princes & Bicameralism,SF TV - Nova & Charmin Robbie, Physics Tomorrow - Entropy & Black Holes, SF Events Calendar ---------------------------------------------------------------------- CEH@MIT-MC 01/09/81 20:35:10 Re: 5th Demon Princes Book The fifth and last of the Demon Princes novels by Jack Vance is out! It is called The Book of Dreams and is about Howard Alan Treesong. Nano-review: a slight disappointment Micro-review: An adequate if not satisfying conclusion to the series. Whatever you do, don't read this one first. The plot is a bit thin but the ambience is, as always, satisfyingly strange. Treesong, supposedly one of the strangest and most evil of the demon princes appears more like a rather petulant child than an unpredictable, evil, genius. Oh well, not Vance at his best, but worth the $2.25 if only to finish off the series. Bay-areans: Available at Future Fantasy (of course) -- Charles ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jan 1981 1446-PST From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE Subject: bicameralism There's another story about split brains in the latest Zelazny collection "The Last Defender of Camelot" (sorry, can't remember the actual title). In this one the right half of a guy's brain is conditioned to assasinate someone when a key phrase is spoken and be dormant otherwise. This is intended to fool the telepathic bodyguards, who would hear only the left half's thoughts. ------------------------------ CEH@MIT-MC 01/04/81 03:04:11 Re: Split Brain story A split brain plays a part in Gene Wolfe's short story 'The Death of Doctor Island'. -- Charles ------------------------------ Date: 31 Dec 1980 1404-EST From: PHENIX via Subject: PBS' NOVA "It's About Time" An excellent and entertaining discussion of time. The program does contain one of the most unusual things I have ever seen: pictures of Isaac Asimov in an airplane. (Concorde, no less.) Happy New Year. ------------------------------ Date: 9 January 1981 2049-EST (Friday) From: Andrew Reiner at CMU-10A Subject: Stars of yesteryear Robbie the Robot, star of the classic "Forbidden Planet", is currently appearing with Mr. Whipple in a toilet paper ad on NY television. Thought you'd like to know. Andy Reiner ------------------------------ Date: 8 JAN 1981 0839-PST From: FORWARD at USC-ECL Subject: Black hole entropy Black holes can violate a lot of laws with impunity, but not the laws of entropy. Most of the radiation from an evaporating black hole is in the form of low energy neutrinos, infrared photons, and long wavelength gravitons, surely a low-grade form of matter. Thus the evaporation of a black hole is just another step in the universe's long slow march to an inevitable entropy death. A black hole with a mass in grams of M has a temperature in degrees Kelvin of T=10^26/M. When M>10^17 gm, the temperature is less than 10^9 K so only zero rest-mass particles (photons, neutrinos and gravitons) are emitted and the black hole loses mass at a rate proportional to 1/M^2. Such a hole should emit approximately 81% of its mass in neutrinos, 17% in photons, and 2% in gravitons. When M<10^17 gm (a medium-sized asteroid -- not much left of the star that formed the black hole) then emission of electrons and positrons are allowed; and when M<10-15 gm muons will be emitted (although these will quickly decay into electrons, positrons, and neutrinos). It is only when M<10^14 gm, so that the temperature exceeds 10^12 K, that hadrons (including protons, neutrons, and their anti-particles) are finally emitted. I'm afraid that we will have to find out another way of avoiding the entropy death. Of course, if it turns out that information is conserved, then that must mean that as the amount of "information" in the non-living matter of the universe decreases, there must be a corresponding build-up of "information" in the living portions of the universe. Thus as the universe approaches its entropy death, there is building up somewhere a super-intellect that finally develops enough intelligence that it knows how to program a reset command that will start things all over again. In this picture, we are nothing but one universe's way of making another universe. Bob Forward ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jan 1981 16:24:06-PST From: E.jeffc at Berkeley Subject: Black hole entropy Well, if you had a "micro black hole" and you put matter in as fast as it came out, then you can have a high temperature black hole that emits whatever you want it to emit. But I suppose it would be very difficult to put matter in when the black hole is so busy spitting it out. On the other hand, neutrinos and gravitons may prove to be very useful in the future (especially gravitons). I doubt that information is conserved because entropy can be interpreted as the "orderliness" of a system, and a system in disorder cannot hold very much information. ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jan 1981 11:30 PST From: Richard R. Brodie Subject: Calendar of Science Fiction Events Here is the SF-Lovers event calendar. If you have information about any events you would like to see added to the calendar, or are associated in some way with one of the listed events and would like to contribute, please send mail to Brodie at PARC-MAXC. ------------------------------ Calendar of Science Fiction Events As of January 7, 1980 January 16-18, 1981 (Tennessee) CHATTACON 6. PO Box 21173, Chattanooga, TN 37421. January 23-25, 1981 (New York) LASTCON. GoH: Hal Clement; Fan GoH: Jan Howard Finder. Albany Ramada. Cost: $9 till 12/25/80, $12 till 1/16/81, $15 after. Maria Bear, 216 8th Street, Troy, NY 12180. January 23-25, 1981 (Southern California) SHERLOCKON. A Holmes-Coming, The 100th Anniversary of the Meeting of Holmes and Watson. Travelodge International Hotel, 9750 Airport Blvd (near LAX). There will be a 'murder' on the first day for all you sleuths to try and solve. Case will be resolved by the banquet Saturday. P.O. Box 1330, Hawthorne, CA 90250 January 30-31, 1981 (Ohio) OSU CON. Ohio State University. Julie Washington, OSU Union Program Office, 1739 N. High Street, Columbus, OH 43210. February 6-8, 1981 (Florida) OMNICON II. Guest: Kerry O'Quinn (Starlog). PO Box 970308, Miami, FL 33197. February 12-16, 1981 (Southern California) AQUACON. Disneyland Hotel, Anaheim, CA ($56 single). PO Box 815, Brea, CA 92621. February 13-15, 1981 (Massachusetts) BOSKONE XVIII. Pro GoH: Tanith Lee; Official Artist: Don Maitz. Sheraton-Boston ($57/single, $69/double). Cost: $12 until 1 Jan 1981, then $15 to N.E.S.F.A., Box G, MIT Branch P.O., Cambridge MA 02139. Films, program, seminars, art show, hucksters room, filksinging, games, costume party, Glamor and Sparkle. Info on dealers' tables and art show is available; dealers' room will probably be larger than in past years as we now have more of the hotel. Registration limit of 3000. (We aren't happy about the room rates either, but there isn't a usable hotel with significantly better rates.) SFL liaison: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock). February 14, 1981 (Florida) STONE HILL LAUNCH II. Ann Morris, 1522 Lovers Lane, Riverview, FL 33569. February 14-16, 1981 (Northern California) DUN DRA CON VI. Gaming. 386 Alcatraz Avenue, Oakland, CA 94618. February 22, 1981 (Southern California) THE SECOND (SEMI) ANNUAL TRANSYLVANIAN CONVENTION. A six-hour Rocky Horror party (12 noon - 6 p.m.). Los Angeles Hilton. Feature Films, Concert Shorts, Exhibit & Slide Show, Collec- tibles, Live Entertainment, Costume Contest, Door Prizes, probably a showing of Night of the Loving Dead [Yes, lOving]. The Worst Films Show (7:00pm-10:00pm, extra admission). Two of the all time worst films, plus trailers, shorts, etc. (213) 656-9090. February 27-March 1, 1981 (North Carolina) STELLAR CON VI. University of North Carolina. David Allen, Box 4-EUC, University of N.C., Greensboro, NC 27412. March 6-8, 1981 (Texas) OWLCON II. Rice Program Council, PO Box 1892, Houston, TX 77001. March 6-8, 1981 (Wisconsin) WISCON 5. SF3, Box 1624, Madison, WI 53701. March 20-22, 1981 (New Jersey) LUNACON '81. Guests: James White, Jack Gaughan. Sheraton-Heights, Hasbrouck Heights, NJ (marginally attainable by public from New York City). Cost: $11 till 2/28/81, $14 door. Box 204, Brooklyn, NY 11230. April 3-5, 1981 (Kansas) FOOL-CON IV. Confirmed guests: C. J. Cerryh, Lynn Abbey, Robert Asprin. Johnson City Community College, Kansas City, MO. Johnson County Comunity College, Overland Park, KS 66210. July 2-5, 1981 (California) WESTERCON 34. GoH: C. J. Cherryh; Fan GoH: Grant Cornfield. Red Lion Motor Inn, Sacramento, CA; (916) 929-8855; $32 single and double, $8 addl person. Party wing. Cost: $15 till 12/31/80, $20 till 6/14/81, $25 door. P.O. Box 161719, Sacramento, CA 95816. July 10-12, 1981 (Missouri) ARCHON V. GoH: Tanith Lee; Fan GoH: Joan Hanke Wood; Toastmaster: Charlie Grant; also Joan Hanke Wood, Wilson 'Bob' Tucker, Glen Cook, Ron Chilson, George R. R. Martin, Joe and Gay Haldeman, and Michael Berlyn. Chase-Park Plaza Hotel, St. Louis, MO ($44 single, $52 2/3/4). Soliciting program ideas and/or people who could help carry them out. Also looking for more artist names to add to the mailing list for soliciting contributions to the art show. This was successful at ARCHON IV (over 60% of artists sold works), and they are trying to expand. There will be more art show space and display panels this year. Also in the process of reviewing art show rules and would welcome suggestions. SFL liaison: WMartin at Office-3 (Amy Newell). September 3-7, 1981 (Colorado) DEVENTION TWO. 1981 World Science Fiction Convention. Pro GoH: C.L. Moore, Clifford Simak; Fan GoH:Rusty Hevelin. Cost: $35 till spring 1981. P.O. Box 11545, Denver, CO. 80211. (303) 433-9774. September 2-6, 1982 (Illinois) CHICON IV. 1982 World Science Fiction Convention. Pro GoH: A. Bertram Chandler; Fan GoH: Lee Hoffman; Artist GoH: Kelly Freas. Hyatt Regency, Chicago, IL. Cost: $20 till 12/31/80, $30 till 6/30/81; $15 supporting; $7.50 conversion. PO Box A3120, Chicago, IL 60690. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 11-JAN "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #7 *** EOOH *** Date: 11 JAN 1981 0722-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #7 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Sunday, 11 Jan 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 7 Today's Topics: SF Authors - Forward, SF Books - Unpleasant Universes (TFoP) & Quantum SF Series & Card, SF Movies - Brainstorm Query & Plan 9, Star Trek - Alternities, TESB - Genealogy & Alternities ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 JAN 1981 1418-PST From: FORWARD at USC-ECL Subject: Visit to Boston I will be visiting Boston Monday 12 January 1981. Arrive at Logan 5:23 pm on Sunday evening, staying at Hyatt Regency in Cambridge. Will be autographing books at the MIT Coop from 1-2 PM Monday, then attending Dan Shapiro's class "The Sky is Falling (Really)" from 3:30 to 5+ pm in the AI playroom, eighth floor of 545 Tech Square. (I was originally planning a short lecture, but the way the class has been going, I'm not sure I'll get a chance to speak.) Will be shuttleing off to NYC, then DC early Tuesday AM. I'll be available for autographs, chats, or just to say Hi if you can catch me at one of those places. Bob Forward (FORWARD@USC-ECL) (FORWRD@MIT-MC) ------------------------------ MASEK@MIT-ML 01/11/81 01:36:29 Re: Fountains of Paradise I confess, I voted for FoP for a Hugo for best Novel. Why? I read the other novels and they were significantly less interesting. JEM was the only other novel that was nominated that I would recommend to a friend. (Please note I have a strong bias towards plot.) Re: "FoP is just another engineer builds whatever story" That is meaningless. A good story can steal from any number of traditional plots and create a new interesting story. Titan is just a variation of the Wizard of Oz. Unfortunately I don't care what happens to the world in Titan. Someone once said there were about 10-15 original plots and all literature are variations on those plots. A good novel keeps your interest. bill ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jan 1981 0220-EST From: RDD at MIT-AI Subject: Quantum Science Fiction Series SFL V2 #3 contained a message from me about the Quantum SF Series. That message included a list of Quantum titles that I had pieced together from my personal collection. Vinge's "The Snow Queen" was listed with a question mark because my copy does not carry the Quantum imprint. Will Martin recently sent me a note saying that the copy of Card's "Songmaster" he is reading includes a list of the series' books. That list matches mine exactly and includes Vinge's novel. Somewhat bemused I returned to my copy of "Songmaster" and found that it definitely does not include that list. At this point I should note that all my copies were purchased from the SF Book Club. Evidentally they chose to eliminate the list when they set up the book on their special presses. Of course the entire text of the book is there, as always. Speaking of which, let me briefly recommend Card's "Songmaster" to each of you. This novel is by far Card's most entertaining and thoughtful work since his 1976(?) story "Ender's Game". It includes the Analog stories "Songhouse" and "Mikal's Songbird" with new material to complete the lifestory of Ansett. Forget Card's at best mediocre somec series (the collection "Capitol" and the novel "Hot Sleep"). Avoid his just plain awful novel "A Planet Called Treason". Skim "Unaccompanied Sonata" to justify what you paid for that copy of OMNI. But read "Songmaster". Highly recommended. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Dec 1980 04:16:53-PST From: decvax!duke!chris at Berkeley Subject: Douglas Trumbull's latest movie "Brainstorm" will begin filming in the Research Triangle area (Raleigh, Durham and Chapel Hill) of North Carolina for ten weeks starting in March. At least, that is what he told me two weeks ago. Does anybody know of a good way to get a disk drive to convincingly blow itself up? It is one of the things Trumbull wants to do. I hadn't read the SFL V2 #166 at that time but he should be back in this area in late January/early February. I'll ask him about the "Super-70" format when I see him (if I see him). I'll let y'all know what I find out. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jan 1981 2133-PST From: Yeager@SUMEX-AIM Subject: "Plan 9 From Outer Space" Well gang, saw "Plan 9 From Outer Space" just now. It IS the worst SF film ever made. A must. Don't miss it. Bill ------------------------------ Date: 08 Jan 1981 2348-PST From: Don Woods Subject: two STAR TREK parodies The following comes from Admin.Kanef at SU-SCORE (Bob Kanefsky): Following are based on two scenes from STAR TREK (one from the TV series and one from the movie) which involve the onboard computer. I feel these scenes were not written realistically enough; the writers undoubtedly had never had contact with a real computer. The rewritten scenes below attempt to correct this and to portray the computer and its programmer more accurately. ==================================================================== Scene: from "Wolf in the Fold". Jack the Ripper has just "possessed" the Enterprise computer. ==================================================================== Spock: He's brought himself up as the new operating system, Captain. Kirk: Explain. Spock: He now controls our computer. No shit, Sherlock. Kirk: And the computer controls the ship. ^ Engage manual overrides! Jack's voice [from computer]: Ha, ha! Your manual overrides are very limited -- they won't even open the vending machines! Spock: Computer. Computer: WORKING> Spock: Compute to the last digit the value of pi. Computer: (Crunch, crunch, munch, chew, choke, gasp) Spock [to Kirk]: I discovered this bug just before I went into heat last episode. Forunately, I've not had the opportunity to correct it. Jack: Argggghhhhh!! Spock: I've reported it to Starfleet. They claim it's fixed in the next release. Computer: Stack overruns heap! Belief context overcomes metaknowledge! CAR runs into motor CDR, creating a CDAVR! PA1050: Deleted mass murderers being expunged. Jack: I think I've made a-- Computer: Fatal error! Please notify Spock! [pause] Kirk: Kirk to Scott: How long will it take you to get the vending machines working under manual control? Scott: I canna do it in less than two hours, Captain. Uhura: Captain, I'm hungry. Kirk: Make it half an hour, Scotty. ==================================================================== Scene: From STARTREK.TMP -- Spock has just entered the bridge, rejoining the Enterprise crew for the first time in years, and is studying the new computer station. ==================================================================== Kirk: Spock! Welcome back! [ Spock turns and stares blankly at Kirk, then continues examining the computer station. After a moment, his control slips, and his usually immobile face registers excitement.] Spock: They installed a display terminal! Kirk: Spock, Dr. Chapel wants to see you. Spock: I've been waiting years for this.... It even has character insert and delete! Kirk: She said something about blood tests. Spock: My proposal was finally accepted! And the new release is here. I wonder if they fixed the bug in the emergency automatic defense system... [touching some buttons] Uhura [horrified]: Captain! The transporter room reports that the shields just came up -- while they were beaming two people aboard! ...They've lost them, sir. Kirk: Mail their families the usual sympathy card and send a yeoman with a mop. Spock, we're short on officers' quarters because Decker's here, so if it's OK with you... Spock: Just as I suspected. I wonder if they fixed the bug in the life support system.... ------------------------------ DUFFEY@MIT-AI 01/11/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They comment on what the people at Marvel Comics may know and alternities. People who are not familiar with TESB may not wish to read further. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jan 1981 at 0250-CST From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THAT OLD PATERNITY QUESTION AGAIN ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Acknowledgedly, only the data in the actual STAR WARS \films/ can be held reliable, but here's a new potential clue. While the folks at Marvel Comics may be just battening on the uncertainty for the fun of it, it c-o-u-l-d be that They Know Something. The latest issue of the STAR WARS comic has Luke reminiscing on the events in TESB: "...his showdown duel at Cloud City with the Dark Lord of the Sith, Darth Vader-- where he learned that the man he most hated in all the galaxy might well be his FATHER! Whatever the truth..." and then saying, "'It felt like Vader told me the TRUTH...but wouldn't that mean BEN KENOBI misled me? Either seems unthink- able.'" So maybe, just m-a-y-b-e... ------------------------------ Date: 01 Jan 1981 1359-PST From: Richard Pattis Subject: Pot-Shots The Vader/Ewing Connection: If thats the case, then Peter Pan is Vader's mother. Rich ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 12-JAN "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #8 *** EOOH *** Date: 12 JAN 1981 0412-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #8 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Monday, 12 Jan 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 8 Today's Topics: SF Books - Demon Princes, Space - Planetary Society and other Groups, Future - Telephone Numbers, SF TV - KTLA, SF Movies - Horrible SF, Star Trek - The Computer ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 11 Jan 1981 at 1658-PST From: obrien at Rand-Unix (Mike O'Brien) Subject: Demon Princes Attel Malagate (the Woe), Kokor Hekkus, Viole Falushe, Lens Larque, and Howard Alan Treesong. I was checking the copyrights...the Demon Princes series is seventeen years old! I had given up hope of its ever being finished, so when the last two appeared suddenly, I was delighted. I disagree with the last review; I was not disappointed with the last novel. Treesong was a creature of impulse. Series as a whole: Highly Recommended. One of the best. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jan 1981 17:13 PST From: Hamilton.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: The Planetary Society (and other space advocacy groups) I recently received the first issue of the Planetary Society newletter. I don't have it in front of me, but basically it's a very slickly-produced glossy magazine of about 16 pp., which I would guess will come out every couple of months. The level of writing seems to be for the scientifically-aware layman. I believe OMNI will shortly be publishing a list with addresses of all the major space-advocacy groups. In brief: Planetary Society: aimed at increasing popular support for planetary exploration. Principal people are Carl Sagan and Bruce Murray. L5 Society: primary thrust is space colonization, as inspired by Gerard K. O'Neill, with space industrialization as a more immediate focus. Publishes "L5 News", a small, semi-technical magazine, every month or two. National Space Institute: founded by Werner von Braun, now headed by Hugh Downs. Intended to be a popular space-advocacy group with the broadest possible base. Originally they had a very juvenile, "gee-whiz" newletter, but they are finally coming around to the point of doing a very professional job of lobbying and tracking Congress. Space Studies Institute: Gerry O'Neill's organization. No slick newsletters, just a four-page activity summary once or twice a year. Members' money goes directly toward the support of his mass driver and related work. British Interplanetary Society: the oldest and most scientifically respected organization devoted exclusively to space. Their magazine "Spaceflight" provides the most complete, widely- available archive of satellite launches and background on space programs of all nations. A particularly good source for analysis of the Soviet space program. JBIS is a scientific journal they publish. Their recent Project Daedalus produced a fascinating, detailed engineering design for an interstellar space probe. American Institute for Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA): The princial American professional society for aerospace engineers. While not strictly a space advocacy group like the above, they have published some fascinating engineering studies in their monthly magazine, "Aeronautics and Astronautics". I've been involved with both the Chicago Society for Space Settlement (independent, but works closely with SSI), and the Organization for the Advancement of Space Industrialization and Settlement (OASIS - LA L5), and have been deeply impressed by the commitment and the professionalism of the people involved. L5, in particular, has many local chapters, involved in such things as public education and small-scale engineering studies. A committee from OASIS recently completed an engineering study on using Space Shuttle external tanks as units of a space station, using available innovative technologies such as space-filling foam. --Bruce ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jan 1981 1325-PST (Sunday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: misc This message will address several seemingly unrelated subjects, as it will attempt to come up to date with a variety of SF-LOVERS topics that have passed in the last few weeks. I originally sent off this basic message over a week ago, but it got smashed in one of the ITS systems, and was lost forever. Here it goes again: 1) Phone numbers that follow you around. It was mentioned that it would supposedly be feasible to have a universal phone number that could follow you around wherever you go. This is indeed true. Given the full implementation of the CCIS (Common Channel Interoffice Signalling) system, a person's "personal" number could be translated within the network into the unrelated "physical" number for their particular location. Presumably you could "login" your new location from whatever phone you happened to be near, so that the network would be up to date on where you were. There are some interesting problems with this sort of system though. For example, how do you know, when you call someone, exactly how far the call will go (and how much it will cost?) That is, does a call to person number 311-555-2368 go next door or across the country? Who pays the difference? I can see a scenario like this: SUBSCRIBER LIFTS PHONE: CENTRAL OFFICE: "Central -- Enter number please" SUBSCRIBER: "311-555-2368" CO: "A call to that number will cost you ... Two dollars and eighty-five cents for the first minute. Please press "*" for accept, "#" for reject". Or whatever; you get the idea. You will note that I have the CO speaking its opening prompt instead of providing a dialtone... this will come to pass eventually, especially when voice dialing systems become feasible (not for quite a while yet -- though I have a crude voice dialer on my micro at home that works if you talk slowly and clearly...). In any case, the concept of logical as opposed to physical phone numbers is an interesting one. 2) How to save NASA. I have an idea as to how to avoid NASA funding problems. What they do is hold a contest with a big prize to the person who catches the most ceramic tiles when the shuttle makes its landing. Hmmm. Maybe they'd be better off giving the prize to the person who catches the most tiles during TAKEOFF. Oh well, easy come, easy go. 3) KTLA does it again. Channel 5 here in L.A., continuing in their attempts to outdo the other locals when it comes to science fiction, has recently pulled a couple of interesting tricks. For example, last Friday night, they ran the classic "It Came From Outer Space" ... Saturday night, they ran "The Creature From the Black Lagoon". Interesting that they ran the two classic 3-D SF movies one after the other. Of course they did not show them in 3-D (though they could have, a pay-tv service here in L.A. recently showed some 3-D stuff -- they even sent out the glasses for it!) KTLA is also the guardian of the local Star Trek reruns, and has changed their schedule for ST in an interesting way. Instead of showing them around dinnertime M-F (which they used to do) or on afternoons during Saturday and Sunday (which they were doing until a week or so ago), they have now scheduled it for Monday through Thursday at 11 PM. Yes, PM. Looks they know where their audience is. An interesting way to siphon people off from the 11 PM news programs (KTLA's own news is from 10 to 11, natch.) Should be interesting to see how this rather unique scheduling works out. The episodes I have seen so far are pretty badly cut... looks like they wanted to squeeze a few more commercial minutes out of them. One other thing about KTLA -- they are calling their SF movie program the "SCI-FI SPECTACULAR". Somebody should speak to these people about this blasphemy. Maybe I will... chuckle. Oh well, enough for now... I hope this satisfies those people who have been wondering where I've been hiding and not sending any mail. I am amazed to find that there appear to actually be some people who ENJOY reading my insane ramblings. Oh well, nice to know that S & M is still alive and well... A belated happy new year to all. --Lauren-- ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jan 1981 (Sunday) 2047-EDT From: PLATTS at WHARTON-10 (Steve Platt) Subject: Bad SF-Horror movies In Philadelphia this Wednesday at 10PM will be on Channel 17 a movie by the title of "Incredibly Strange Creatures Who Stopped Living and Became Mixed-Up Zombies". Has anyone seen this "classic" and can they review it? What other movies of equally absurd titles can you think of? ------------------------------ JMTURN@MIT-AI 01/12/81 01:05:47 Regarding the ST computer. One thing I have noticed is that the people writting the show could never decide if it was a single-user number cruncher or a multi-user timesharing system. For instance, in the "Wolf in the fold" episode, Kirk crashes the system by feeding it paradoxes. Now then, on a timesharing system (at least a good one), if one job loses, it doesn't down the system. This would tend to make one think that perhaps the computer was a single person system. But everyone seems to use it, in all locations of the ship. Perhaps Spock's terminal is the equivilant of a system console. In that case, it becomes slightly more believable, except that, again, any good system would not allow the console to crash the system by generating an error. Besides, the system console is almost always next to the computer itself so that the operator can watch the computer and the console. If Spock's console were, however, the system console, all someone who wanted to destroy the Enterprise would have to do is type DOWN5 (or whatever the command to bring down the system is) and everyone would get a message saying SYSTEM GOING DOWN IN 5 MINUTES... James Turner ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 13-JAN "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #9 *** EOOH *** Date: 13 JAN 1981 0441-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #9 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Tuesday, 13 Jan 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 9 Today's Topics: SF Books - Demon Princes & Mayflies, SF Theater - Frankenstein, SF Movies - Computer/Action Films, Physics Tomorrow - Fast Computers, Star Trek - The Computer, Spoiler - Unpleasant Universes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Jan 1981 1644-PST From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE Subject: book notes Let me add another recommendation to read "The Book of Dreams", the fifth and last Demon Princes novel by Jack Vance. It wraps up the series with the usual Vance color and dash. I'd be interested to know if Vance was like Howard Alan Treesong as a kid: an imaginative childstuck in dull surroundings, making up romances and adventures. The Land of Maunish sounds a lot like, say, Iowa. Does anyone know if that is his background? A little above the space adventure category is "Mayflies" by Kevin O'Donnell Jr. (does anyone know if this is a pseudonym for Barry Malzberg?). The plot here is that a man's brain is incor- porated into the central computer facility of an interstellar colonization ship. The builders thought that the man's personality had been scoured out by death trauma (he had been decapitated in an accident), but he comes to life once the ship is underway. His initial struggles wreck the ramscoop drive and change the ten-year journey into a thousand year one. The story consists of his battles with the existing system and his attempts to reform the increasingly decadent and worthless passengers, who are the mayflies of the title compared to his effective immortality. Very well handled overall. I also read over the weekend a new book by Norman Spinrad called "Songs from the Stars", but I would like to reserve my comments about it until a few more people have had a chance to see it. It got glowing blurbs from the likes of Zelazny, Niven, Benford, and evenb Timothy Leary, but I didn't care for it. See what you think. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jan 1981 0220-EST From: The Moderator Subject: More on Frankenstein - The Broadway Flop Jim McGrath has forwarded several more newswire stories on the new theater adaptation of Frankenstein. Copies of these stories have now been established at the sites listed below. Everyone interested in reading these stories should obtain the file from the site which is most convenient for them. If you are unable to do so, please send mail to HUMAN-NETS-REQUEST@MIT-AI and I will be happy to make sure that you get a copy. Please obtain your copies in the near future however, since the files will be deleted in one week. A copy of the material will also be available from the SF-LOVERS archives. Thanks go to Richard Brodie, Richard Lamson, Doug Philips, and Don Woods for providing space for the materials on their systems, and to Jim McGrath for collecting them for us. Site Filename MIT-AI AI:DUFFEY;SFLVRS FRANK CMUA TEMP:FRANK.SFL[A210DP0Z] PARC-MAXC [Maxc2]SFLOVERS-FRANK.TXT SU-AI FRANK.SFL[T,DON] MIT-Multics >user_dir_dir>SysMaint>Lamson>sf-lovers>frankenstein.text [Note, you can TYPE or FTP the file from SAIL without an account.] ------------------------------ Date: 11 January 1981 2337-EST (Sunday) From: Paul.Hilfinger at CMU-10A (C410PH01) Subject: Self-destructing disk drives Well, it depends on what you mean. I assume that you want a technically realistic failure mode, since it is easy to make something blow up realistically if you have some explosives on hand. Does "the spindle disintegrated, hurling ball bearings all over the machine room" sound like what he's after? This is the result of substituting phonograph records for the disk platters on a pack and mounting same. Check out Operating Systems Review, Vol 14, No. 2 (April 1980), p. 8, last paragraph for the story surrounding a "test" of this procedure (OSR is put out by SIGOPS). --Paul Hilfinger ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jan 1981 0352-EST From: LS.MELTSNER at MIT-EECS Subject: Disk drives as explosives It is sort of hard, as far as I can tell, to make a disk explode. Impressive results may be obtained with some of the large, ancient, IBM disks, though. The ones they may still have at LBL had .5m radius disks, and were cleaned with meter longcotton swabs. If the mass of the disk plates was known, and the rotation speed determined, the energy conetent could be determined. For anything smaller, I don't think the effect would be truly impressive. (Though I have had the urge to shoot my drives (5.25" mini-floppies) more than once.) Speaking of computer/action films, has any one heard anything about "Trapdoor" since its mention in OMNI. Apparently, Christopher Reeves will star as an MIT student who undercovers an underground international slush fund and conspiracy while playing Zork or something. About basic plots: Ben Bova mentions there only 3. 1) The Little Tailor (man proves something to himself and/or world) 2) Boy Meets Girl (obvious) 3) The Man Who Learned Better (ditto) Apparently, John Campbell convinced Mr. Bova that all fiction was merely a combination of these plots. Etc., Etc., Etc. Capt. Polaroid ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jan 1981 1441-PST From: Richard Pattis Subject: Faster Computers Here is an idea that I've been kicking around for a while. I'm not sure it has merit, but I thought I'd air it anyway. Is the following feasible: Assume you want to squeeze lots of speed out of your computer, so you put yourself on a near light speed vehicle that circles your planet with as small of a radius as possible. Meanwhile, the computer remains on your planet. Because of relativistic effects, you can vastly increase the perceived speed of the machine. Better yet, leave your computer orbiting a black hole and then jump in. A question: In either of the above cases, can you get information back and forth from the computer, or is this where things break down. I'm afraid I don't know enough physics to really understand the issues. Rich ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jan 1981 (Monday) 1840-EST From: RUBENSTEIN at HARV-10 Subject: ST COMPUTER The ST Computer is obviously a multi-user multi-processor system. When fed a difficult (or impossible) problem, it responded by commiting bank after bank of processors to the problem, until there were not enough for the operating system -- that is, the Ripper. ------------------------------ Date: 12 January 1981 1659-EST (Monday) From: Joe.Newcomer at CMU-10A Well, I can think of a few reasonable explanations for the ST computer behavior: (1) Paradoxes cause a task to go compute-intensive (with no termination) and the captain's console has high priority... (2) Paradoxes cause a task to go memory-intensive (wnt) and the system is happily thrashing itself...and the captain's console (etc.)... Now, you say, who would build a wedged system like that? Don't forget, in spite of the futurisic setting, the Enterprise was still built by a government, and consequently everything (including computer and software) was done by the lowest bidder... joe ------------------------------ Date: 12 January 1981 09:09 est From: Benson I. Margulies at MIT-Multics Subject: ST Computer I think it is a waste of time to attempt to find a current-style schemata for the ST onboard computer. Operator's console, indeed! If you absolutely must do something other than accept it as a character, then compare it to Dora in Heinlein. One personality, but enough ability to service simple (er) requests from other places at the same time. While I think the paradox-crash is the most hackneyed, STUPID plot device involving a computer I know of, (second not even to the fact that it catches fire thereafter) it most certainly implies some primary consciousness to confuse. Of course, it is unlikely that even this much though went through Roddenbury's or anybody elses mind about the subject. The ST computer is pure cliche. In none of the episodes that I've seen does it do anything original, except perhaps get posessed. If the writers put so little work into it I fail to see why we should. benson ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jan 1981 1012-PST From: Craig Milo Rogers FLASH! Squeezac (aka Robbie the Robot) was sighted in LA this weekend! ------------------------------ DUFFEY@MIT-AI 01/13/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last message in this digest. It extends the discussion of Unpleasant Universes using Varley's "The Ophiuchi Hotline" as an example. In doing so it explains a major mystery of the book. People who are not familiar with this novel may not wish to read further. ------------------------------ MCLURE@MIT-AI 01/12/81 05:30:23 Re: Varley's universe [spoiler] I finally got around to reading Varley's Ophiuchi Hotline and in the last 40 pages started thinking about the SF-LOVERS discussion of 'unpleasant' universes. I think Varley's universe fills the bill rather well. This book left me feeling very depressed. I had read his two short story books, but this one really hit hard. Are there many examples of other writers ousting humanity from Earth so disdainfully? In every other case I can think of, people leave because they want to, are exterminated completely (even more depressing), live with the Invaders and eventually regain superiority, or just get bored of Earth and want a change of pace. But Varley makes you feel so nostalgic, it seems such a pity. The feeling one gets from this is very odd. Please don't take this as criticism of Varley. He's one of my favorite writers and I think he writes better than 99% of the other storyteller's I've read. I am just venting frustration at those damned Invaders. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 14-JAN "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #10 *** EOOH *** Date: 14 JAN 1981 0721-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #10 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Wednesday, 14 Jan 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 10 Today's Topics: SF Books - Card & A Knight of Ghosts and Shadows, SF Movies - Altered States & Computer/Action Films, Physics Tomorrow - FAST Computers, Star Trek - The Computer, Star Wars - SW FANAC ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KLH@MIT-AI 01/13/81 02:29:14 Re: A Planet Called Treason, &c. Hey!! I thought that was rather engaging, myself, and would recommend it for pleasure reading with few reservations. I know I liked it a lot better than I did "Songmaster", and I don't THINK this has anything to do with a general non- interest in music, but I can't explain exactly what was so boring about the latter book. Other opinions? On the other hand, I agree with Chip that "A Knight of Ghosts and Shadows" is definitely Anderson's best. Powerful stuff. I wonder how much of the impact comes from one's knowledge of previous books, though. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jan 1981 0156-EST From: DMM@MIT-ML, JBARRE@MIT-ML, LARKE@MIT-ML Subject: "Altered States" Nano Review: 9+ on the Richter Scale. "Altered States" sneak-previewed in Dallas Tuesday night. Ken Russell is definitely in his element here - unlike some of his recent films , where his flamboyance far outstripped the subject matter ("Valentino" or "Lisztomania"). Can hallucinogenic experiences - like those caused by mindexpanding drugs or sensory deprivation - become REAL, externalised experiences? Paddy Chayefsky's novel visualised just such an occurance. It may seem unfilmable, but Ken Russell pulls it off. The movie fairly rockets along, propelled in part by a soundtrack of Saturn 5 intensity. Don't sit in the front row without ear plugs. During long talky sequences it some- times skips a beat, and when it trips out it runs near to becoming just another horror film. But most of the time it is a dazzling morality tale/pop-icon/freak show: as Newsweek put it - "Feverish, farfetched, exhilarating, and downright scary." Its not for the whole family - because of graphic sex and nudity and a penchant for artsy avant-garde effects - but all of it necessary part of the story. Rated R, of course, and rated highly. Have Fun! --Larry, Julie, & DMM ------------------------------ Date: 13 January 1981 1812-EST (Tuesday) From: Hans Moravec at CMU-10A (R110HM60) Subject: Relativistic computing Making the computer seem to go faster by relativistically dilating you own time would certainly work, but it requires investement of an enormous amount of energy (potentially recoverable), and gets you very little. It does not get you an answer faster in the time frame of the universe at large, but robs you of all the thinking time you might have otherwise had (like, it'll take you that much longer to figure out that there's a bug in the code and the machine has been in an infinite loop for the past 10^5 years) You can get the same effect by more "appropriate technology" means by hibernating in suspended animation between console interactions (with the system response I'm getting now that doesn't sound so bad). To really win, what you need is a large quantity of NEGATIVE mass (it has negative energy and things fall away from it). Instead of a gravity well this lump of mass causes a gravity hill, on which time runs faster. Chain your computer down to a large dense ( -10^20 g/cc, for instance ) negative mass and it will compute faster w.r.t. you and the whole world. But be careful. Negative mass makes everything, including itself, fall away, so a negative planetoid is gravitationally unstable. Of course you don't have to be ON the planet, you can be in the middle of it. There are no gravity forces inside a hollow shell, and its very easy to make a hollow shell with negative matter. So simply encase your computer in a few onion layers of negative mass to speed it up. It won't even notice. Only problem is where to find the -M. So maybe you've been searching and searching, and still no -M. If you should stumble on some tachyons, which spend all their (time?) moving faster than light, you can use tham instead. The transmission and reception of a tachyon is a process that happens faster than light, known as a SPACELIKE INTERVAL to the cognoscenti. Spacelike intervals have the property that their two ends are not uniquely time ordered, meaning that one observer will judge that the reception happened after the transmission and another in a different state of motion will deduce, equally correctly, that the reception happened first. By passing a message between confederates in appropriately chosen states of motion via tachyon messages, a message can return to its point of origin before it was sent. You can use this simply to speed up a computation by arranging to get your answer now, and do the computation which generates the answer later. More cleverly, you could miniaturize the process and build negative delay lines into your computer, to be used in carry look ahead and instruction prefetch and similar situations. With clever design, this would allow a computer that never did a computation whose result was not used, and in which no subassembly ever sat idle waiting for something to do. It would allow more computation per switching operation and per watt hour, and per computer lifetime (which the other methods mentioned don't affect). What a win! ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jan 1981 1000-PST From: Moock@SUMEX-AIM Subject: exploding disk stories Since the edge of a disk is experiencing much greater forces than the center, it is not totally out of the realm of imagination for a defect in materials to cause the edge to separate. This is all storytelling anyway, so consider a scenario where a new ultra- fast disk is being used, in which construction tolerances are critical. An undiscovered weakness causes the outer edge to fly off in several pieces, ripping out and scattering circuitry, magnetic material and shrapnel. -TM ------------------------------ KLH@MIT-AI 01/13/81 02:46:01 Re: Disk Crash effex Oh, goody! Actually I think most head crashes are rather tame in the way of visuals (although I am told that they beat the hell out of fingernails-on-blackboards). Perhaps you want to use a Librascope disk or equivalent, which is about 5 feet in diameter (?). Coat with graphite, rev up, and start the steel heads seeking madly... What puzzles me is why it has to be "convincing". The only reliable way to blow up a disk drive, I think, is to put some explosives inside it. This is hardly likely to convince anyone except people who don't even know what a disk drive looks like, in which case any old blinkenlights box and sparklers will do. If you DO perchance use a real disk, can I have the controller when you're done? ------------------------------ Date: 13 January 1981 2348-EST (Tuesday) From: R.Kamesh Subject: Exploding disk drives You use up all the mana available locally to move all the one bits to one end of the disk and all the zero bits to the other end. This causes fundamental instabilities that causes the disk to start wobbling, finally walk all over the room like a demented R2D2, and explodes in one-bits and zero-pieces like the DDeath-Star. The entire footage for an exploding disk drive can thus be obtained by pirating a copy of Star-Wars. Kamesh ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jan 1981 (Wednesday) 0122-EDT From: PLATTS at WHARTON-10 (Steve Platt) Subject: ...on computers, disks, etc. Concerning a few comments about computers and so on in the recent issues of SFL... -- Crashing disk drives -- if you wanted to get *really gross*, write a "walking disk drive" program, run it on 2 drives, and have them repeatedly run into each other. I don't know how much physical punishment of this sort the drives could take... I can see it now, two drives performing "The Bump"... or perhaps Consumer Reports adapting this test in the future... -- Star Trek console - WHY does the console of a computer need to be near the actual hardware? What about a separation of Software vs. Hardware consoles? If the processor(s) are located in either a vacuum or cryogenic freeze, as is likely, I'd certainly not wish to don a heavy environmental adaption suit to use the machine! -- Besides, who writes about computers and AI realistically anyway? -Steve ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jan 1981 at 0250-CST From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ SW FANAC ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ...continues in the interim, at least in the form of fanzines, mostly with amateur stories based on Lucas' characters and universe. According to ALDERAAN (which differs in eschewing fan fiction) the word from Lucasfilm has gone out on the fan grape- vine that action would not be taken against SW fan fiction, tho Lucas has stipulated that sexually explicit SW stories be avoided. (ALDERAAN is, to my mind, the pick of the SW zines, but that's probably because its letterzine/newszine format is more akin to SF-LOVERS than the fiction-oriented ones, which are very pricy. Somehow it doesn't appeal to me to support fan fiction. If anybody wants to be read badly enough to use such unrestricted outlets, s/he should be as willing to pay the cost as any other user of a vanity press.) According to one fanzine editor, Beverley Clark, "Lucasfilm is keeping tabs on people doing SW zines and satires [by openly buying 4 copies of each SW-related fanzine]... Lucas himself had let it be known that he did \not/ like X-rated material; specifically he did not like gay stories, and he would \personally/ hang the first person to write or print a gay SW story." So far, fans have honored his request -- as well they should, for it is an originator's moral right to protect his work against what s/he considers to be mutilation, since the work is an expression of his persona or character. Such stories are said to have circulated underground, tho, in the mails to individuals or in person. And as for bawdy SW filk -- wait till you've heard "Making Wookiees"! ( BTW, ALDERAAN's address is: Kzinti Press, Box 8554 Toledo, OH 43623 ) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 15-JAN "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #11 *** EOOH *** Date: 15 JAN 1981 0748-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #11 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Thursday, 15 Jan 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 11 Today's Topics: SF TV - KQED Dr. Who, SF Books - Wounded Land, SF Movies - TRON & Computer/Action Films, Star Trek - The Computer, Humor - Twilight Zone Revenge ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14 Jan 1981 2303-EST From: KJB at MIT-DMS (Kevin J. Burnett) Subject: DR. WHO For all you out there, Dr. Who is back out here on the West Coast. It's on KQED, CH. 9 in San Francisco, on Wednesdays at 8:00 PM PST. - Kevin ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jan 1981 12:22 PST From: Richard R. Brodie Subject: Thomas Covenant The Wounded Land by Stephen R. Donaldson Del Rey, 1980. $12.95 hardcover There are those who think that Stephen R. Donaldson's "The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever" is the greatest work of literary fantasy ever to be produced. It's an interesting thought; Donaldson's style appears at first amazingly pretentious, as if he sprinkled pseudo-literary devices purposefully throughout the books. But by the end of the first trilogy, it becomes quite clear that, to the reader's confoundment, he has pulled it off. We begin to suspect that he actually knows those ten-dollar words that he inserts two-per-page (p. 202 of "The Wounded Land": dirk, buckler, runnel, skirled, preternatural). We begin to enjoy, with a wry smile, theamazingly extended metaphors he throws at us unwarned (e.g., "A wave of anguish swept over Covenant like a tide of despair, throwing him awash in a sea of doubtful uncertainty. Unable to anchor himself amid the viscid stridulations of the Sun of Pestilence, he clung to the flotsam of grim resolution, awaiting a far-off port." I just made that one up, but you get the idea.) At any rate, after reading the first three books, we are quite prepared to accept the fourth, billed as "The First Book of the Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant" --- note no "Unbeliever" this time. Donaldson even manages to make the reader's skep- ticism of the worth of his books parallel Covenant's character development! The man's a genius. Well, the fourth book, "The Wounded Land," is the best yet, containing an exciting plot with not so much crepuscular verdure (sorry) to hack through. A friend once described the first trilogy to me: "Men walk. And walk. And walk. And then they walk some more. "Well, they trot in the fourth book, which contains so many parallels on so many levels that if the characters merely walked, they'd never get through them all to the end of the book. Be prepared to plow through the first couple of books, and don't give up just because Donaldson misuses "comprise" in the first one; after all, Webster's Third gives "imply" and "infer" as synonyms. It's really a masterpiece. Richard Brodie ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jan 1981 1344-PST From: Craig W. Reynolds from III via Rand Subject: TRON I had been being a good boy and not leaking (too much) about the movie TRON, but the cat is officially out of the bag now. ----- from VARIETY Jan 14, 1981 - Hollywood California DISNEY ROLLING $10 MIL SCI-FI "TRON" APRIL 13 Walt Disney Prods. plans to roll "TRON" April 13, with Steven Lisberger directing the $10,000,000 sci-fi fantasy from the script he wrote with Bonnie MacBird and David Rimmer. Most of the 10-week shooting schedule is on the Disney lot. Company said Lisberger and producer Donald Kushner began developing the project two years before bringing it to Disney last summer. Among those who have worked on the pic's intricate designs are Heavy Metal magazine's Jean Moebius Giraud, futuristic artist Syd Mead, computer graphics designer Richard Taylor and Peter Lloyd. Harrison Ellenshaw will supervise special effects post- production, expected to take a year and involve all studio departments, including animation. Buena Vista will release in the summer of 1982. ----- TRON is actually a story about computer systems, sort of seen from the inside. There will be lots of computer animation from various groups/labs around the country, but no final decisions have been made on who does what. Richard Taylor is the Creative Director of our group at III. - Craig ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jan 1981 at 1049-PST From: obrien at Rand-Unix (Mike O'Brien) Subject: Crashing Drives For several years now I've been looking for a traceable story about what happens when a drum freezes a bearing. I finally heard of one that supposedly happened in Viet Nam, of all places. It purportedly took out a wall. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jan 1981 (Thursday) 0457-EDT From: SHRAGE at WHARTON-10 (Jeffrey Shrager) Subject: Exploding discs -- peripherally related tales First, an anecdote: Univac used to market a very large, horizontally mounted drum. The device was encased in glass for show. It weighed almost a ton, was approx 6 feet in length (height) and took almost ten minutes to stop turning (with braking). I do not know at what speed it ran but it was quite impressive. Rumor has it that one of these devices around the Philly area once had the bearings freeze causing the ton of ferrite painted metal to blast out of its glass case, bowl down a pair of tape drives and nearly kill two operators. Also, we recently experienced a head crash of rather major proportion. It made NO NOISE (contrary to popular belief) but took a two inch swath of oxide off of our paging disc -- very impressive thing to see. ------------------------------ RVS@MIT-AI 01/15/81 01:35:56 Re: exploding disk drives The original (as far as I know) IBM exploding disk-drive trick was done by a Caltech student. I don't remember his name, but I understand that he lived in Ricketts House. The guy did not do well in his classes because he felt that they were useless (perhaps he was smarter than he was given credit for). When he decided to leave Tech and go into 'the real world', he went to IBM and told them that he could make one of their computers explode, by remote control from a terminal. IBM representatives claimed that their security was quite good, and that he was welcome to try. The machine that was his victim had the CPU at the end of a long row of disk drives. According to my information, the particular disk drives used (and still in common use today) have disks that spin at such a rate that the centrifugal force applied is about half the tensile strength of the material. He simply figured out the rotational frequency of the disks, and wrote a program to seek at this frequency. Supposedly film exists, taken from a camera on top of the CPU, of this shockwave of exploding disks starting from the far disk drive, each drive destroying the next one, and finally blowing away the CPU. At resonance, of course, force exceeded strength. There are other ways of destroying IBM CPUs, but this is probably the most spectacular. -Sam ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jan 1981 1513-EST From: LS.MELTSNER at MIT-EECS Subject: Disk Drive Explosions It is interesting how many people want to destroy disk drives. Perhaps some deep-seaeted desire to get revenge on the computer will explain this phenomenon. Personally, I'm fan of exploding bullets or plastic explosive charges, since most of the shrapnel produced by a flywheel breakdown would probably be stopped by other machines, not humans. (Not quite as interesting, right?) If anyone has a junker drive they don't need anymore, I'd be glad to help find out how to destroy a disk drive. I still vote for explosives, but then I enjoy that sort of thing! Capt.Polaroid ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jan 1981 0928-EST From: CONTROL at BBNE Subject: re: Star Trek, "Wolf in the Fold" It occurs to me that bombing the system out to such a degree would also have a detrimental effect on all the systems functions. E.G. life support systems, bridge control, etc. would cease working since, obviously, they are computer controlled. Uh, right? Robin (rclifford@bbne) ------------------------------ DUFFEY@MIT-AI 01/15/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last message in this digest. It takes an amusing look at the Twilight Zone Episode "Escape Clause" from our future perspective. It also includes some information about the episode that people who are not familiar with the episode may not wish to read. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jan 1981 0812-PST From: Amy Newell via Subject: Mrs. Olson Gets Hers Revenge is sweet! After all these years of watching the most pompous woman on TV spout inanities, you can't believe the thrill it gave me to watch her go over the edge of that roof. Do you think Serling knew what was to come and that all of America would get satisfaction from watching the kindly Swedish busybody bite the dust? Loath though I am to admit it, at 28 this is the first time I've seen most of the episodes (I grew up in Iowa and had to be in bed before airtime). Our PBS station started running them last week, and even though the 11 o'clock showing time is still keeping me from catching all of it some of the feeling of deprivation is easing. Now, if only there were an episode with Mr. Whipple and the Tidy Bowl man with ray guns at twenty paces. Guess even Serling couldn't think of everything. AJ. Just re-read the first part of this message and realized that for those who don't have all of TZ commited to memory, I should have explained that the show I'm talking about has David Wayne as a hypochondriac who makes a pact with the devil with immortality as the price for his soul. Finding no thrills left in life, he decides to jump off of the roof of his apartment building, his wife (Mrs. O) gets in the way and he does her in. As far as I'm concerned that's the highlight of the show, so won't say more. AJ. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 16-JAN "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #12 *** EOOH *** Date: 16 JAN 1981 0926-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #12 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Friday, 16 Jan 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 12 Today's Topics: Future - Telephone Numbers, SF TV - WHO is Dr. Who?, SF Movies - Altered States (LA Sneak) & Computer/Action Films & TRON, Physics Tomorrow - FAST Computers, Star Wars - SW FANAC & Genealogy & Force Theory ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 15 Jan 1981 09:58 PST From: Reed.ES at PARC-MAXC I for one have absolutely NO interest in having my phone number follow me around. That would make difficult the concept of an unlisted number, something I find to be very useful. A permanent phone number is an invitation to invasion of privacy. I have had a few instances when the ability to hide my phone number was important to my survival. With permanent phone numbers, once someone obnoxious gets your phone number, they can forever hassle you. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jan 1981 0945-PST From: Achenbach@SUMEX-AIM Subject: Speaking of Dr. Who... All right, so I started watching it. I seem to remember that it used to be on in LA for a while, but don't remember much about it, except that there was a different Dr. Who. In fact, I seem to remember that it was the same as the Dr. Who who died just before this Dr. Who appeard in the first episode they showed up here. There was something about this being the "fourth such incarnation of Dr. Who". This seems a wonderful device to keep uppity actors in line. In any event, I have a question. Just what is the premise of the show (i.e. Who is Dr. Who?) The announcer for KQED out here keeps making oblique references such as "Join the master of time and space, Wednesdays at 8" and "stolen time machine", but no one has gone any farther than that. I must say, I'm impressed with the sophistication of British military weaponry. /Mike ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jan 1981 1658-PST From: Rknight at OFFICE-2 Subject: Bay area sneak of "Altered States" The San Jose Murky Lose has an ad for a sneak preview of "Altered States", tomorrow night, Friday the 16th. It will be at the Town and Country theatre, 2980 Stevens Creek Blvd. in San Jose at 8 P.M. only. Bob ------------------------------ Date: 15 January 1981 1700-EST From: Hank Walker at CMU-10A Subject: IBM exploding drives I remember that guy at Tech. He was in my class and my Freshman EE lab. He flamed out after about 2 years. He claimed to have performed the stunt BEFORE he came to Caltech, or at least he was talking about it while there. No one believed him since he was a turkey. The head exerts essentially no force on the platter. The only possible effect is to cause vibration in the drive due to head seeks. Obviously there are shock absorbers to control the vibration, although in old drives, you could walk them across the floor. I guess I'll have to see it to believe it. ------------------------------ ZEMON@MIT-MC 01/15/81 09:02:34 Re: Peripherial mishaps Reportedly, someone made the mistake once of installing some of those monsterous Univac drums (they weigh about a ton...) in an upper floor of an office building. After several weeks of operation, the floor weakened and one of the drums fell through. Fortunately no one was in the offices on the lower floor, and they found the drum the next morning hanging from the ceiling by its cables. If the cables hadn't been so strong the drum might have hit the floor below, gone through it (gaining momentum in the process), and kept on going into the sub-basement. I think that Univac likes to mount the drums on concrete floors, not only because the average computer room's raised floor isn't strong enough, but also because (after months of operation) the drives tend to 'walk' around the floor a bit. zemon@mit-ai ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jan 1981 1734-PST (Thursday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: disks I have frequently stared down at a spinning 300 MByte disk drive and wondered what would happen if the spindle should fail and the disk came crashing out of the case like a demented Frisbee (or a multilayered version of Oddjob's hat from "Goldfinger"?) Seems to me that I heard a story once of a disk drive on an old Sigma 7 (is there any other kind?) that disgourged its disk which went flying across the room and did considerable damage. Lucky it didn't kill somebody. This was a vertically mounted disk drive, by the way. At the old Stanford AI Lab, the Lounge had a genuine Librascope disk (indeed, it is about 5 feet in diameter), that was used as a coffee table. There was a trash can in the middle of it under the spindle hole as I recall. You could actually SEE the horrid SCRATCH that had occured (and ended its useful life). --Lauren-- ------------------------------ JMTURN@MIT-AI 01/15/81 08:22:59 A motion picture about systems? Good Lord! Katty and the Computer meets the Son of Lucasfilm! Seriously, if Disney can pull of a real, understandable, documentary on computers, then all luck to them. But if this is going to be another "The Computer Wore Tennis Shoes"...*sigh*. Worse yet, I notice Disney is heading toward the Sun Classic area of film making (psuedo-scientific). By the way, while I'm mentioning Sun Classics, they seem to have yet another in the continuing series - "We say it happened this way". Now they're trying to tell us that the government is covering up a first-contact (where have we heard that one before?). Someone should invent a law about the quality of films seeking the publics bad taste. Finally, about volatile memory (disks blowing up), Lenny Foner and I discussed various nasties one could do to peripherals a while ago. Some of the things we came up with were: 1) Throwing a milkshake into a tape drive. 2) Placing a crazy glue dispencer after the read head on a tape drive...it all sticks together on the take-up. 3) Crazy glue on the read head of a disk (SNAP). 4) Sandpaper disks. 5) Saw blades instead of disks (CHUNG CHUNG CHUNG). Also, Lenny tells of a tape drive where he went to school. One day, the tape came loose, rolled out the door, down the hall, down the stairs, and into the library. In addition, when he worked for BBN, there were two printers next to each other. Someone placed a coke on one, the paper feed jammed, causing the top to open, which lobbed the coke into the other machine... James Turner P.S. Of course, for shear violence, nothing beats mounting razor blades parallel to the read head. Shreaded disk... ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jan 1981 1734-PST (Thursday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: relativity and Lucas I am not an expert in the area of relativity. A real expert might find the following question ludicrous. However: What constitutes motion in terms of gaining relativistic time dilation "advantages"? If you spun around REALLY FAST in one place, would time dilation occur? What if you oscillated back and forth over a one mile long area? One foot? What is the real definition of motion in this case, given, say, the Washington Monument as a point of reference? ------------------------------ I find myself vaguely disturbed at the sort of mentality indicated by Lucas in his "anti-sex" philosophy of "screening" unauthorized SW materials. I suspect that such "selective enforcement" of copyright, on such a basis, might well be proven illegal in court. He might well be risking his copyright by letting only the stuff he finds "wholesome enough" go unchallenged. Ta ta. --Lauren-- ------------------------------ DUFFEY@MIT-AI 01/16/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They comment on what the people at Marvel Comics probably don't know and the nature of the force. People who are not familiar with the SW comics and the SW movies may not wish to read further. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jan 1981 16:17:48-PST From: CSVAX.toy at Berkeley Subject: Marvel Comics and TESB If the folks at Marvel are to be believed, it is impossible for Darth Vader to be Luke's Father. In one of the previous Star Wars Comics, Luke runs across a planet inhabited by winged men who remember a time when they were visited by three jedis, Obi-Wan, Luke's Dad and Darth Vader. SO IF Marvel is telling the truth then it looks like Darth tried to pull a fast one on the poor boy. Michael Toy ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jan 1981 (Sunday) 2101-EDT From: PLATTS at WHARTON-10 (Steve Platt) Subject: TESB - implications of Good vs. Evil Force use There has been recent mention that the Force is neither Good nor Evil, that it is the user who determines the course it takes. This brings up a few questions: 1) are there "Neutral" force users (in a D&D fashion)? An un-ARPA'ed friend in Detroit argues "No" - that to use the force you must have a goal of sorts in mind, one that is either benevolent (good) or malevolent (evil). I disagree, the user of the Force is merely chanelling energy, the Good-ness or Evil-ness have nothing to do with the ability... 2) and what of the force as a weapon? It clearly can be used as such. Users such as the Jedi -- are they licensed in some manner? Are they the Texas Rangers of old? Was The Republic like the Old West -- in the wilderness (such as Tattooie) people could use the Force to protect themselves as needed (in the American West, there were not many gun-fighters, most were gunless peace-lovers), but in civilized areas, some sort of license is/was necessary to use the force... ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 17-JAN "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #13 *** EOOH *** Date: 17 JAN 1981 1113-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #13 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Saturday, 17 Jan 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 13 Today's Topics: SF Books - Saturn Game, SF TV - WHO is Dr. Who? & The New Buck Rogers, SF Movies - Hanger 18 & Computer/Action Films & TRON, Physics Tomorrow - FAST Computers, Star Trek - The Computer ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 Jan 1981 0751-PST From: Jim McGrath Subject: Saturn Game Read the novella in this Feb's issue of Analog, The Saturn Game. Quite a good work, delaing with the first manned expedition to Saturn. The voyage takes eight years, and it is the custom on such long flights to keep oneself occupied either doing research (which only a minority of people can do before they reach their target), or 'playing the game.' The game is a computer assisted (although after a while it need not be) multi-person game patterned after D and D. The story explores the consequences of this game playing when they reach Saturn. As I said, it is a good story, well worth getting a hold of. Jim ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jan 1981 14:04 PST From: Pugh.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Achenbach's Dr. Who query It's been a while since I've seen the Dr. Who here in LA, however, I seem to remember that the explanation of Dr. Who's presence on earth came about from some travesty that Dr. Who performed on his home world. As punishment, Dr. Who was to be placed on a primitive planet (earth) so that he could use his powers for good causes and thus show that he was deserving of a return trip home. His vehicle, a time ship, is not capable of returning him home (at least not until his peers deem it so). It was further mentioned that as powerful as Dr. Who appears to be with respect to the earthlings, he ranks midway in the spectrum of knowledgeable beings on his home world. The above is what I remember to the best of my viewings of Dr. Who a while back. If I am misled, please help me straighten out the summary. /Eric ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jan 1981 0858-PST From: URBAN at RAND-AI Subject: Buck Rogers I caught the second hour of "Buck Reformats his Show" last night. Seems the good guys now have a mission to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, and to boldly go where man really has gone before. TV Glide has a listing for next week's episode in which Buck is transporting an ambassador to a peace con- ference. The guest star is Mark Lenard (Spock's father). Jeeeeeeez. I have a bad feeling about this. I missed the first hour. Was there any reasonable rationale given during the first hour for the Vishnu/Garuda fake-Hinduism reference in the second hour?? Who wrote this? Oh well, it seems to be the only SF on the network tube. I guess that gives NBC/Universal a point or two for trying. Mike ------------------------------ JMTURN@MIT-AI 01/17/81 03:34:47 The people at NBC have again proven that the only thing that comes between them and good SF is poor quality. On Thursday night, they started the new season of Buck Rodgers with a two hour special...pure camp! It was absolute shclock, but one scene stood out from the rest: Buck, Wilma, and a local mad-professor type are standing of the bridge of the star-ship Searcher. With them is the captain. Captain spots ship on screen. Asks mad-prof if MP's know-all robot could identify it. MP responds he will ask. Sends message to robot telling him to appear on deck. Robot responds reluctantly...saying he really doesn't want to, but mumbling about the laws of robotics. While waiting for robot, MP comments to captain (who's name we discover is Asimov) that robot acts so badly because he doesn't believe that MP created him. MP's name, by the way, is Dr. Goodfellow (the Good Doctor?). Need I say anymore? James Turner ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jan 1981 0157-EST From: HEDRICK at RUTGERS Subject: review of Hanger 18 I am not sure whether this movie is really relevant to SF-L, since it is probably better to think of it as a thriller than S.F. But I thought someone might be interested in hearing about it anyway. If you think of it as a sort of action/mystery story, and don't expect a great classic, you will probably like it. It moves quite fast, with two parallel plots that keep alternating. The acting seems realistic. Its biggest drawback is a somewhat unbelievable heavy in the White House. After Watergate it is hard to be completely convincing when you say "they wouldn't *really* do that". But I really find this a bit hard to take, and I also find it hard to believe that our CIA and FBI wouldn't have better ways to get rid of people than to act like a low-budget gangster movie. On a science-fiction level, they used a lot of space shuttle and mission control scenes. These seemed quite realistic. Their alien technology seemed a bit less so, but of course I am no expert on alien technology. Here are my nits: - shadows not dark enough in space - an explosion in space that makes a noise - a flying saucer whose exterior and interior are somehow a bit more dark and sinister looking than seems reasonable - use of the "ancient astronauts" theory, which leaves me completely cold - they explain the fact that aliens look just like us by the fact that our ancestors bred with the aliens a long time ago. But that doesn't explain how our ancestors were so close to the aliens that they could have fertile offspring. - the alien's language is deciphered using as a Rosetta stone an old inscription whose meaning is not known. nice trick... Indeed I wonder about the whole idea of deciphering a document in an unknown language when you don't have any idea what it is about. Of course it was all done by computer... (have there been advances in the art of machime translation that I don't know about recently?) ------------------------------ Date: 16 JAN 1981 1708-EST From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Re: films seeking the public's bad taste: There already is Gresham's Law, which originally stated that bad money would drive good money out of circulation (because people will hoard pure coins and try to get rid of (i.e., circulate) fiat money, coins stamped from adulterated metal, etc.). This has since been extended to almost anything you can name; modern TV is an obvious example. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jan 1981 1815-PST (Thursday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: Richard Taylor An entry for the "it's a small world" book: Richard Taylor, who was described as head of the graphics group at III (and now working on TRON) is the same Richard Taylor who was the art director for the Trek movie while I was at Robert Abel and Associates. Of course Abel got fired from the project before its completion, and the effex work all got tranferred elsewhere... Those of you who know me personally are no doubt familiar with some of my anecdotes about the goings on at Astra Image/Robert Abel... --Lauren-- ------------------------------ PCR@MIT-MC 01/16/81 22:24:04 Re: relativity In response to Lauren's questions, it occurs to me that in the case of oscillating with relativistic velocities about the Washington Monument, you'd get maximum time dilation as you passed the midpoint (the monument) and flipped over to de-accelerate (This assumes that you aren't squashed flat by the acceleration. Anti-gravity, anybody?) Spinning in place would be more interesting. I'd suspect that there would be greater dilation in time as you walked away from the spin axis. (*This* assumes that the ship has enough tensile strength to hold together against the stress.) We could have some interesting paradoxes in a spinning ship; imagine twins, one who stays near the spin axis, and the other moves toward the hull. We could have a twin paradox, and the twins could watch each other slow down. I'm not an expert, so these are only guesses. I'd be interested in hearing (reading?) an expert opinion. If there are relativistic effects in a spinning spaceship, what would be the effect of the differential aging rates of the metal structure (the outside getting older slower than the inside)? ...phil ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jan 1981 0743-PST From: Jim McGrath Subject: Relativity Remember, special relativity (time dilation, space contraction, etc...), which is generally accepted as a correct explanation of the working of this part of our universe, applies only to NON-accelerated systems. Rotating systems are accelerating (ie changing velocity vector), and therefore special relativity does not apply. General relativity does apply, but I do not have the background to handle this. (any takers?) General relativity theory (in any of its numerous forms) is not generally accepted as valid (the jury is still out), so I am not even sure that you will get the same answer from different theories. Thought experiment: assuming special relativity applies, the circumference of a rotating disk decreases as speed of rotation increases (to the outside observer that is), but the radius does not (there is no movement along that axis of the system). Therefore the value of pi is a function of speed! Jim ------------------------------ PCR@MIT-MC 01/16/81 08:41:10 Re: Star Trek Computers In reply to Control's comments about computer controlled life support. It would be poor design to have the main computer constantly in control of the Enterprise's life support. To my mind, a better design would be to have a number of micros running the details of the system, and sending status updates to the main computer when asked. This would keep the big machine from having to divert resources to handle mundane stuff during times of heavy load, as well as allowing the ship to be habitable during times when the main system is down (such as preventive mantainance). There might be several layers, such as micros for regional control, talking to each other through a life support processor, which communicates with the main machine. However, expecting the ship's central processor to handle all these little tasks is extending the concept of centralization a bit too far. ...phil ------------------------------ Date: 16 JAN 1981 1708-EST From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Re: crashing the enterprise's computer Subject: affecting lifesupport systems: This is mentioned as a design weakness in THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS --- Mike has too many piddling responsibilities (though these are used to good effect by the rebels). I would also guess that an object the volume and mass of the Enterprise would be able to last for a while after the shutdown of lifesupport systems; only if the systems went crazy and started actually spewing out poisons would there be immediate trouble. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jan 1981 1959-PST From: Mike Leavitt The trouble with describing a computer plot as hackneyed (as in the ST discussion) is that sometimes the most hackneyed situations are the most realistic. If the October ARPANET crash were written as fiction, would its reviewers call it hackneyed? Realistic? Farfetched? Mike ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jan 1981 1754-PST From: Daul at OFFICE Subject: Star Trek Selective Service Date: 15 Jan 1981 1410-PST From: Shoemaker at OFFICE-6 Subject: Re: STAR TREK 1981 (Computer Upgraded) To: daul at OFFICE-5 cc: SHOEMAKER In response to your message sent 11 Jan 1981 1920-PST 14-01-81 From: Selective Service Department Greetings: You have been selected to serve on the Starship Enterprise. Please report to Moffet Field Air Base on 16 January 1981 at 0400 hrs. Report to Duty Officer for further instructions and assignment. Welcome Aboard! ------- ============================== This is a little note that Paula Shoemaker sent me. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 18-JAN "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #14 *** EOOH *** Date: 18 JAN 1981 0947-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #14 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Sunday, 18 Jan 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 14 Today's Topics: Future - Telephone Numbers, SF Books - Publishing Short Stories, SF Movies - Altered States & Wizard of Speed and Time, Physics Tomorrow - FAST computers, Star Wars - Lucasfilm Computers & SW FANAC & Force Theory ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 Jan 1981 13:28 PST From: Pugh.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Reed's message on "intelligent phones" The "permanent" assignation of phone numbers to individuals can be viewed as a two level problem: one being the obvious technological aspects of "permanent" phone numbers, and the other being the political climate surrounding "permanent" phone numbers. If the PHONE COMPANY chose to have a very tight system whereby individuals could not "trade-in" numbers freely, then indeed this could be viewed as an invasion of privacy. Otherwise the concept can be very useful. Having a set of unlisted numbers is NOT disallowed by the technology. Of course, it won't be as easy to get rid of "junk" callers! /Eric ------------------------------ Date: 27 Dec 1980 (Saturday) 2031-EDT From: SHRAGE at WHARTON-10 (Jeffrey Shrager) Subject: Amateur author's query: Where would I send a short story in order to have it reviewed for publication? Are magz the place to start? Which ones have standards that would permit publication of a previously unheard of author? Does one expect to be paid for a first work? And... what about copyrights? Tune in next digest for (hopefully) answers to these and other questions on... "The edge of SF" ------------------------------ RP@MIT-MC 01/17/81 13:13:09 Re: Altered States Let see, is it "Altered States" or "Altered Stapes". My ears are still REGENERATING from the experience. There was a sneak preview in Boston last night and in a word this is a loser (though it will make many megabucks). I want to HURT someones feelings. After RUSSELing with my conscience I would like to see the entire cast put in a PADDY wagon. I have no complaints about the first half; it was fine. But when Hurt starts to grow extra toes in the bathtub and tells his student in his bed that he is fine, the unintentional laughs begin and they persist. Dumb, really dumb. When he splits some skulls and continues the experiments like nothing had happened it becomes clear we are being led down the garden path for a climax of gore and stupidity. During the film I was struck by the power and sound but upon leaving the theatre I felt robbed. It felt like Hollywood had gotten to me. We all know they feel the public is a bunch of boobs (no pun intended), and by mixing pseudo-intellectual mumbo jumbo with sex and violence then the money will fill their coffers. They are, of course, correct. They do this by SENSELESS DEPRIVATION of the audience. Many questions are left unanswered. I think we need to organize a SNEAKIN for films like this. That is, see it but avoid paying for it. Perhaps it is worth a dollar but no more. To sum up let me add that there were 4 young fellows in black leather jackets two rows up from me. Before the film they inserted some powder into their nostrils. When it ended one of them had fallen asleep. Perhaps he was the most fortunate member of the audience. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jan 1981 (Saturday) 1221-EDT From: DREIFU at WHARTON-10 (Henry Dreifus) Subject: Wizard of Speed and Time I highly recommend the following procedure: Rent ''Wizard of Speed and Time'' from Budget Films. Cost: $13.20 C.O.D. Borrow/Steal 16MM sound motion picture projector. Watch film 20 to 40 times, then return it. The result is profound, and enjoyable. It works for me. /Hank - Still enjoying his weekend. ------------------------------ JGA@MIT-MC 01/17/81 17:23:15 Re: relativity I didn't really want to lecture, but there's been a lot of misinfor- mation flying around here on relativity. There are plenty of good books around for learning things generally, so I'll confine myself to correcting a few bloopers. Time dilation. There's only one good way to measure and compare time intervals. Two observers start out at the same point in ** space-time ** (same place AND time). They carry clocks. They go their separate ways. Then they meet again at another point in space-time. They compare clocks. It's possible to send signals from one guy to the other as they pass near each other, but these must be interpreted with caution. For instance, as Lauren's rocketship whizzes by the Washington monument, we might peek inside the windows (in theory!) and see his clock running "slow". But he could look outside at ourclock and see OUR clock running "slower" than his too. That's because we're not in the same inertial frame. It would only be when he landed that we could properly compare clocks, at which point we would find less time had passed for him than us. So statements like "... in the case of oscillating with relativistic velocities about the Washington Monument, you'd get maximum time dilation as you passed the midpoint (the monument) and flipped over to de-accelerate..." are misleading. We, on the ground, have travelled a certain "distance" through space and time. So has Lauren, but we went different routes through spacetime, so it should not be surprising that we covered a different "distance" in time as well as in space. Space dilation. Repeat the above. There's no difference. To elaborate - there's only one good way to measure and compare space intervals. You've got to have your ruler (clock) in the same inertial frame. Saying "Therefore the value of pi is a function of speed!" is just like saying that the size of the picture on the wall is a function of how far away from it you are. There are lots of apparent measurements, but sticking your ruler right up to the picture is the only one that different observers will agree on. And remember: space isn't curved -- space-time is. John. ------------------------------ Date: 17 January 1981 1344-EST (Saturday) From: Hans Moravec at CMU-10A (R110HM60) Subject: Accelerated relativity Special relativity is perfectly adequate to accurately predict the consequences of any motion, including accelerated motion, as long as there are no large masses around (even then you can view gravity as being locally equivalent to acceleration and piece together the description from locally special-relativistic patches, just as Einstein did to invent general relativity; but that's another story). The important thing is to do all your calculations in an inertial (non-accelerated) observer co-ordinate system. For instance, in the oscillating case Lauren mentioned, you could certainly take the tip of the Washington monument as the origin of a co-rdinate system and the time of the oscillee would at any instant be running only 1/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2) times as fast as yours. To get the net elapsed time on the oscillee's clock, just integrate the instantaneous time dilations over the whole trip: Integrate(1/sqrt(1-v(t)^2/c^2),t,tstart,tfinish) Your personal elapsed time (monument time) is simply tfinish-tstart, of course. The above formula is useful in any non-gravitational situation, as long as the v(t) is measured by an observer who is never accelerated. Note that v^2 is a scalar quantity equal to the square of the magnitude of the velocity vector v. Applying it to a rotating disk, it is indeed true that rings at different distances from the center experience different time dilations and circumference reductions, and that the geometry on a flat rotating disk is non-euclidian! It is, in fact, very like the space around a black hole. As you get farther from the center, time slows down more and more, and there is an "event horizon" at the point where the speed of the disk would equal light speed. An observer at the center of the disk would see someone falling towards this rim (pulled by centrifugal force, of course) approach it more and more closely, but never reach it. The same obsever would see the wristwatch of the fallee slow down, and approach but never quite reach a certain time Tout-of-it. Also, beacuse of the space dilation the circumferences near this speed of light limit actually seem shorter than the circles nearer the center, shrinking to 0 at the c speed rim, and the whole object from center is geometrically like a sphere, with the center of rotation one pole and the c rim the other. These effects introduce stresses in the disk (suffering mainly from the stupendous centrifugal force, of course) different from what they would be in a Newtonian universe. They become infinite at the rim, which is both the event horizon and the singularity of the system. In fact, if you don't wish to stretch the disk material as you spin it up, it becomes necessary to deform the disk into a paraboloid to shorten the required cirfumerence of the outer portions. That way, the original disk would have to be infinitely large for the rim to extend all the way to the c limit (i.e. it doesn't reach quite all the way). You get similar black-hole like effects if you try to uniformly accelerate a skyscraper without stretching or squashing it in its own frame. And you can do all this with only a special relativity and a bit of high school algebra and a smattering of calculus (optional)! Aren't you tempted? Read "Essential Relativity" by John Archibald Wheeler (WH Freeman, the Scientific American people, publishers) and do some of the problems and your relativity anxiety will go away. The book is very entertaining as well as having substance missing in the "popular" presentations of relativity. Frankly there's really no reason why anyone in this community with any interest in the subject couldn't answer basic questions as have been posed. It would take perhaps several weeks of enjoyable reading and thinking to get the few basic concepts firmly intuitively entrenched. The math is easy. General relativity is a lot harder, but you need it only when large masses come into play, and we can leave those problems to the pros for now (until computer assistance becomes adequate). By the way, general relativity as formulated by old Albert is a very specific theory, and makes very specific predictions. But because the differences between its predictions and those of (Newtonian gravity + special relativity) are very subtle at our densities, it is hard to distinguish between them under normal conditions. There have been other theories proposed and some are still in the running, but general relativity has passed all the experimental hurdles that have been put in its path. Its still the most elegant one around that has. Except that it totally ignores quantum mechanics and must clearly be modified to properly describe the very small. The music goes on ... ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jan 1981 (Friday) 1117-PST From: DWS at LLL-MFE Subject: Lucas on the march ... Informed rumor has it that LucasFilms has ordered \five/ PERQs (the Three Rivers Computers ALTOlike graphics systems). It seems Lucas wants a good little graphics system to check his camera angles for animation shots. The worst disk crash I've had the pleasure of experiencing was when an RP03 ground quite literally to a screeching halt. No explosion, smoke, or anything nice, but the sound was very convincing. The neat part was openning the cabinet and picking the pieces out. Hardly the Seaview shaking from side to side with showering sparks... Perhaps Lucas could be convinced to burn up a Versatec or accidentally set off the fire sprinklers. ------------------------------ MARG@MIT-AI 01/17/81 16:47:50 Re: Lucas and SW I am more than "vaguely disturbed" at Lucas' anti-sex and especially homophobic attitude. Copyrights apply in spirit to other problems - not collecting royalties, plagiarism, fraud. I can imagine an argument that using SW characters in a TV ad for gay rights might end up being libel - there is a fair chance that people would think that Lucas advocated that position, and it is everyone's right to be understood. However, if copyrights on his characters help him protect the world from free expression in parodies or other contexts in which there is no chance, that's unfortunate. A moral right to be homophobic? No way. I don't want to libelous: what do we have in the way of evidence that he really said he would personally hang the first person who wrote a gay SW piece? ------------------------------ DUFFEY@MIT-AI 01/18/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They comment on the nature of the force. People who are not familiar with the Star Wars series may not wish to read any further. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jan 1981 (Friday) 1240-EST From: RUBENSTEIN at HARV-10 Subject: THE NATURE OF THE FORCE The Force arises from living things. My next thought was that since living things are, by nature, either good or evil or some mixture of the two, that the Force must have aspects of both good and evil but must be one or the other or a combination. Then I went back and examined the premise -- are all living things made up of good and evil? Is neutrality a lack of these tendancies or a cancelling out? The D&D neutral (according to Gygax) has his/her own beliefs about the balancing of good and evil, law and chaos. I think that he would use the force for either one, in order to balance the stronger force. I, personally, feel that neutrality is a BALANCE of good and evil, and that the Force must be wielded for one or the other. Stew ------------------------------ Date: 16 JAN 1981 1708-EST From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Re: use of the force defining whether it is good or evil: "Black magic is a matter of symbolism and intent" (Randall Garrett, in TOO MANY MAGICIANS) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 19-JAN "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #15 *** EOOH *** Date: 19 JAN 1981 0755-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #15 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Monday, 19 Jan 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 15 Today's Topics: Obit - Susan Wood, SF Music - Mercury Query, SF TV - WHO is Dr. Who?, SF Books - Publishing Short Stories, SF Movies - Computer/Action Films & Lucasfilm Computers, Physics Tomorrow - FAST Computers, Star Wars - SW FANAC, Misc., Spoiler - Near Term SF ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 18 Jan 1981 0509-PST From: Jim McGrath Subject: Susan Wood Just read in LOCUS that Susan Wood died November 12, the result of a heart attack. Full details are in this issue of LOCUS. She was quite active in fandom, winning the best fanzine Hugo in 1973 and being co-fan host of the 1975 Worldcon. She was nominated for a Hugo in 1980 for editing the essays of Ursula K LeGuin, THE LANGUAGE OF THE NIGHT. She was an Assistant Professor of English at the University of British Columbia. She was 32 and one half years old. Jim ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 1981 at 2042-CST From: clive at UTEXAS-11 Subject: Music query For a few months now I have been trying to trace down a piece of music which reminds me slightly of some of the Cosmos themes. The piece is currently being used as the background for the Mercury Lynx commercials on TV (most recent instance was on 60 Minutes tonight.) Any pointers to title, album, etc. would be very helpful. Could it by any chance come from Vangelis also? Thanks, Clive ------------------------------ Date: 18 JAN 1981 2136-EST From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Dr. Who In the books made from the TV series (which books are alleged to be much closer to their originals than such frequently are) Who is described as a "renegade Time Lord". From various remarks, the following can be assembled: 1. The Time Lords are highly abstracted mentalities who observe extensively the development of other cultures but refuse to interfere in any way -- even when a culture obviously needs help (e.g., Earth) or squelching (e.g., a grossly militaristic one whose name escapes me). 2. Who does not have this degree of detachment, and was accordingly [censured] for interference. 3. Subsequently he stole a Tardis, a combination space/time machine which is much larger inside than outside, and does his frequently fumbling best to aid us Earthlings. In later books, he appears to have been somewhat reconciled with his superiors. ------------------------------ Date: 18 JAN 1981 1102-PST From: FORWARD at USC-ECL Subject: Amateur Author Query Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine has a few sheets of advice and instructions to new writers that you should get, read, and follow. Send a self-addressed stamped long business-size envelope and a note requesting "Advice to Authors" to: IASFM, Box 13116, Philadelphia, PA 19101. After you have written your short story (following George Scither's advice), then just mail it to one of the science fiction magazines, where it will be read BY THE EDITOR. Most people don't believe it, but ALL manuscripts to Analog, IASFM, and Omni are at least glanced at by the respective editors. The only winnowing that is done by the editorial assistants is to 1) make sure that your name and address is on the manuscript, 2) the return envelope has postage on it, 3) it is double-spaced, single-sided, and in english, 4) is a story, not a letter. The assistant then makes two piles, one of stories from authors that have published before, and another of those that are not so familiar sounding. The first stack gets the editors attention right away, but that only takes a few hours, the editor then devotes the rest of his time, and his commuting time on train or plane searching through the "slush" pile for that great gem, a new author. George Scithers has been averaging one new author an issue. You do get paid for stories by the professional magazines. 5-7 cents per word by the digest size ones, up to $500-1500 by Omni. You will also receive a contract outlining the rights they are buying. You should only sell "first world English language serial rights" to your copyright. As for copyrights, you are protected under the new law when you type "Copyright (c) 1980 by Ima Newauthor" on the front page. When the story is published by the magazine, and IF they send in the two copies and the filing fee to the Register of Copyrights, then your copyright is automatically registered. Any other questions? Bob Forward ------------------------------ Date: 18 JAN 1981 2138-EST From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: The net crash as fiction For those of you who haven't seen "The Capture" (a very entertaining piece of fan fiction done as a slide show) (and for those of you who don't remember it) there is a scene after the fans come on board the alien ship in which one of them reviews the ship's log and concludes that it lacks plot, character, and motivation. ------------------------------ Date: 17 January 1981 0344-EST (Saturday) From: Lee.Moore at CMU-10A Subject: The drums will roll. These stories of Univac's Fastran Drum (aka Cement Mixer) recall a story where two of these where mounted on a small ship for the Navy. Apparently, the weight and speed of the drums were such that the ship had trouble maneuvering because of the gyroscopic effect. ------------------------------ JMTURN@MIT-AI 01/17/81 03:34:47 I just remembered another disk story. A friend's father had an HP with a hard disk. One day, the light on the drive indicated the disk had stopped. He opened the cover, and saw a platter spinning at 1000 rpm. The disk bounced around for about 20 seconds, leaving itself totally munged. James Turner ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jan 1981 1051-EST From: Roy Marantz Subject: disk drive fun A few years ago I gave a 2314 disk to an operator to mount for me. Well it turned out there was some problem with the lock mechanism of the drive and to make a long story short the disk went through the top of the drive (creating much noise and confusion) hovered a bit and then crashed back down into the spindle. Surprisingly only the bottom 2 platters were bent. Roy ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 1981 1345-PST From: Craig W. Reynolds from III via Rand Subject: "Hardware Wars" The 5 PERQs DWS@LLL-MFE mentioned are going to LucasFilm are just the tip of the ice-planet. Rest assured that there will be lots of high grade graphics equipment around there soon. Ed Catmul and his team of ace computer graphics hackers (which is forming even as we speak) will see to that. I've heard that they've got at least one VAX on the way and are building gigundo frame buffers (ie. multi-K res, more bits per pixel than you can shake a probe at). Those PERQs may well be intended primarily for alphanumerics. The people being assembled for this group are really hot, (that rumbling you hear is the stampede of primo computer graphicists heading toward San Rafael). I won't embarrass myself by repeating all the rumors of who's been tapped to go to LucasFilm, maybe when the dust settles... - Craig ------------------------------ Date: 18 January 1981 1240-EST (Sunday) From: Hans.Moravec at CMU-10B Subject: Oops Please replace all occurrences of the string 1/sqrt(1-v ... by simp sqrt(1-v ... in my message to the Jan 18 sflovers. Sorry. In regards to the message by JGA, it is certainly reasonable for the oscillee and the monument squatter to compare the absolute readings of their clocks as they zip past each other each oscillation. They occupy practically the same point in space-time during the pass. At each subsequent pass the traveller's clock will be farther behind. ------------------------------ Date: 18 January 1981 13:14 est From: JRDavis.Multics at MIT-Multics Subject: SW Libel/Copyright/Gay I can imagine an argument that using SW characters in a TV ad for gay rights might end up being libel - there is a fair chance that people would think that Lucas advocated that position, and it is everyone's right to be understood. I'm not a lawyer, but I think that libel pertains to a written communication that meets these criteria: 1) it has to be false 2) you have to know it's false 3) you have to make with intent to harm 4) it has to be believed 5) it has to cause harm These obviously aren't specific, and may be utterly wrong. If need be, I can ask one of my law student friends for the Rules. How does a SW Gay advocacy commercial constitute libel? The commercial does not state that Lucas advocates Gay rights, though some may mistakenly infer that he does. Now, assuming that Lucas doesn't advocate Gay rights, and that in bigot-infested USA he is really harmed by people thinking he is, can you show intent to harm? Can I be blamed for other peoples mistaken inference? If so, how bad a mistake will the law still count? Suppose I have my cousin (who is also named Lucas) say on TV, "I advocate Gay rights". Is that libel? I think we need only fear (C) laws. Have there ever been libel cases in scholarly works, from mis- representing the ideas of a rival? Speaking of libel, I wonder what the threshold of 'published' is: I doubt that private USMail letters are 'published', but how about SF-LOVERS? Roger, if you were worried about Proxmire, imagine being taken before the Imperial Court! ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jan 1981 1959-PST From: Mike Leavitt Subject: MISCELLANY AFTER A VACATION A few miscellaneous comments on some recent SFL items. 1. "Manna vs. Mana" Actually the transliteration of the Hebrew word for "manna" is "man" in the three places it OCCURS IN the Pentatuach (Five books OF Moses). When God fed the Hebrew children in the desert, could he have possibly said "man overboard?" 2. Is "bicameral" really the right term for a brain with two aspects? My dictionary gives "two distinct chambers" as the biological meaning. Are the two cranial aspects actually chambers? Otherwise it might be better to leave bicameral with its political meaning. Actually we now have a true bicameral Congress: a left half and a right half. 3. During a week in Key Largo, I discovered that Dr. Who was on PBS on their channel 2 everyday at 6:00 PM. Most unfortunately, my TV just couldn't get a reasonable picture, so I still don't really know what it's about. Mike ------------------------------ DUFFEY@MIT-AI 01/19/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last message in this digest. It talks about the problems of writing near-term SF using Correy's SHUTTLE DOWN as a recent example. People who are not familiar with SHUTTLE DOWN may not wish to read any further. ------------------------------ Date: 18 January 1981 1202-EST From: Hank Walker at CMU-10A Subject: Shuttle Down Spoiler warning There are dangers in writing near-term SF, like fact can catch up with and pass fiction by before the story is even published. A case in point is Lee Correy's (G. Harry Stine?) Shuttle Down, now being serialized in Analog. Many of the problems of getting a shuttle back from Easter Island are caused because C-5's can't land there until concrete runway turnarounds are built. Last weeks issue of Aviation Week had an article about how the Air Force has been experimenting with driving C-5s around on dirt and portable aluminum mats. Seems that they found that they could get by without concrete. So C-5's could indeed go to Easter Island straightaway. Oh well... [ Lee Correy is the pseudonym G. Harry Stine uses when writing science fiction. -- RDD ] ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 20-JAN "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #16 *** EOOH *** Date: 20 JAN 1981 0838-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #16 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Tuesday, 20 Jan 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 16 Today's Topics: Hugo Award - Nominations, SF TV - WHO is Dr. Who?, SF Books - Publishing Short Stories, SF Movies - Film Techniques & Computer/Action Films, Star Wars - SW FANAC, Spoiler - Hanger 18 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 January 1981 03:24 est From: Schauble.Multics at MIT-Multics Subject: Hugo awards Now that the Hugo nomination ballots are out, I would like to suggest that people write in special category awards for Bruce Pelz for the Fantasy Showcase Tarot deck. He has been working on the for at least ten years, and I feel that the result definitely deserves an award. I understand that there is precedent for special category awards and for write-in categories. ------------------------------ KJB@MIT-MC 01/19/81 21:21:11 Re: DR. WHO.... Dr. Who is a scientist who flings between planets with this strange time machine that resembles a telephone booth. The series is the longest-running science-fiction series ever on the BBC. It is in its 15th season (I believe). I would actually call it more of comedy than 'real' SF, sort of a take-off on all those corny ones. It's hilarious if you understand British humour. - Kevin (I believe he's called Dr. Who because... who is he?) ------------------------------ Date: 18 JAN 1981 2203-EST From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: first stories SALES are easy. You just keep sending out everything you write to every conceivable market, and sooner or later something will catch on. This can take a \long/ time, but it works for most people who have the persistence. Obvious markets: the editorial offices (listed on the contents pages) of ANALOG, ASIMOV'S, F&SF, AMAZING/FANTASTIC if you have little pride and no expectation of being paid, OMNI for the thrill. Note that Asimov's will send a style sheet (in fact, they request that you send for it before sending them anything) on format for a submitted manuscript; it's very helpful. COPYRIGHT: state on the title page "Copyright [c-in-a-circle] [year] by [your name]"; under the revised law this is sufificient until the manuscript is actually published, at which point other factors are managed by the publisher. \Always/ keep a carbon for evidence, reference, and the perversity of the Post Offal. MONEY: Usually a zine has a fixed rate per word, sliding downward for longer material. None of the above are entitled to publish the story for free, although there are magazines of legend which paid authors only on threat of lawsuit. Others pay on acceptance or publication. REVIEWING: This is the hardest part. Asking friends is a good way to get sweetened criticism and/or drive them away. Frequently an editor who sees some promise in a work will take some time to point outflaws, although a commentless bounce doesn't mean it's hopeless; editors vary and I don't know what current personal policies are. The National Fantasy Fan Federation has a story contest which may get you some useful comments; the one with 12/1/80 deadline was managed by Donald Franson, 6543 Babcock Ave., North Hollywood CA 91606; he should know about next year's contest. If you're \really/ serious about this, there are some good beginning writers' workshops, and a lot of terrible ones. ADVICE: Magazines are frequently in need of good short material, although such will often take longer to appear once sold. First novels without a published background and/or a sponsor are difficult to sell, although you could always try Manor Books if you can think of a good pseudonym. Once you sell something, you are eligible to join SF Writers of America, an organization with many flaws but some overriding virtues; do so. GOOD LUCK! And let us all know when you sell something. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jan 1981 20:46:36-PST From: CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley Subject: high-tech film You who are interested in new film technology might check out the 12/31 issue of Variety (the show-biz rag)--weekly issue that is--for a story on a 'new' 3-d process developed by Douglas Fries at Fries Engineering. Rumor is that it "makes all previous attempts at theatrical 3-d seem primitive by contrast" at a net increase in production costs of 8% and per-theater cost of $20k for conversion. Development was financed by United Artists Theater Circuit, who plans to produce 3 features in the next couple of years, the first to be a "psychic suspense thriller". We're talking panoramic 70mm here, with supposedly "flawless color, depth and definition." We'll see. Regarding the recent speculation on digitizing film: why is anybody concerned about projection? Seems to me that the main benefit is in the production stage, digital overlays being the most obvious advantage, modelless graphic rotations being another. According to one who spoke with Richard Edlund (sfx supervisor for TESB), they were already using digital overlays this time around, but the arrival of more sophisticated equipment postdated completion of TESB. So what happens next time around may just be reflecting the SW moneys. ------------------------------ Date: 17 January 1981 1219-EST (Saturday) From: Hans Moravec at CMU-10A (R110HM60) Subject: Sail Librascope disks The 5 ft coffee table at Sail was one platter of a five-platter disk system that served SAIL from about 1969 to 1979, originally for file storage, later for swapping. It had a head/track (there were LOTS of heads), and had a major metal scraping crash in the first year or two of its life. It lost half its tracks in the incident, but after some maintenance, continued to be used at about half capacity, losing additional single tracks from time to time. It needed heavy and regular maintenance, and was often down. The heads were held near the disk surfaces against spring pressure by a system of nitrogen pressurized rubber hoses which dried out and had to be preventatively replaced every six months or so. This operation involved disassembling a major portion of the disk under a positive pressure plastic tent (to prevent dust contamination), pulling out ten (or was it more) long black chemical tubing type hoses out of their snaking paths, then silicone greasing new hoses and tediously forcing them back into the sinuous channels. It took Ted Panofsky or Ed McGuire many days at least. In the last five years the electronics (consisting mainly of non-passivated germanium transistors) started fading away, and the downtimes became longer and longer and longer. To conclude, the librascope was retired because of the enormous maintenance burden it created, not because of its youthful disk crash (impressive though that was - the lawsuit was still going on eight years later). The disks were auctioned off (price about $100 apiece). The most scarred one stayed at sail. The electronics were given for spare parts to one of the remaining other Librascope users (somewhere near Livermore). Their controller had caught fire. The rest of the hardware (all stainless steel) of the monster was sold for scrap. Just thought you'd like to know. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jan 1981 1207-PST From: David Fuchs Subject: exploding drums I visited a Sperry Univac (or was it Sperry Rand?) building in Blue Bell, Pa. (a suburb of Philadelphia) about 10 years ago. I distinctly remember an employee there showing me a big drum connected to their computer. He told me about the time that a bearing seized on an older unit and the drum took off across the room, knocked out some disc drives, missed the operators, and crashed into a wall. The newer drum was also encased in glass, and you could see scars on the surface of the drum where there had been head crashes. A crash only wipes out a few tracks, and putting in a new drum would be very expensive, so the software kept tabs on which tracks it should hop over to avoid damaged parts of the drum. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jan 1981 at 0059-CST From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ MORAL RIGHTS & COPYRIGHTS & LUCAS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Contrary to the views of Lauren and Marg, I am not disturbed, vaguely or otherwise, at an artist's desire to protect the integrity of a fictional universe s/he has created -- whether it be Lucas' SW one, or Diane Duane's or Elizabeth Lynn's with homosexual heroes. Reverse bowdlerization is as wrongful as its opposite. (Rather, even tho \I/ may suspect there's a more likely last word in Han's taunt to Leia in the ice passage, "You could USE a good kiss!", I'd be disturbed at the sort of mentality which would welcome sex into a film aimed at kids as determinedly as SW was.) It's a pretty wild assumption to say that Lucas is "anti-sex" (he IS married). But whether or not he approves or disapproves of homosexuality in the real world (another assumption), he has the artistic AND MORAL right--as its creator--to keep his SW universe "clean", hetero, (\and/ [yecchh!] WASP-male-human-dominated) if he so chooses. Nor do copyrights on his characters prevent "free expression in parodies" -- MAD, PIZZAZZ, CRAZY, and NAT'L LAMPOON all had them. Either ESQUIRE or PLAYBOY had one with a gay VADER! And some porn mag had a pictorial "Star Whores" one that disgusted even me, with a horny R2-type droid. As for what evidence there is that Lucas "really said" anything against gay SW spin-off stories -- my impression from the article on copyrights and derivative fan fiction I quoted from was that there was a long chain of word-of-mouth transmission. The first step in tracing it back would be an inquiry to the Beverly Clark quoted in ALDERAAN, in care of that zine. ------------------------------ DUFFEY@MIT-AI 01/20/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last message in this digest. It examines the dogma that interstellar invasions are impractical while discussing the plot of Hanger 18. People who are not familiar with Hanger 18 may not wish to read any further. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jan 1981 0225-EST From: HEDRICK at RUTGERS Subject: a question sparked by Hanger 18 I am doing this separately from the review because it may merit a spoiler warning (if anyone cares). Near the end of the movie it begins to look like the aliens intend to invade the earth. I remember reading somewhere that invading a planet from space wasn't practical. The defenders have so many more resources at their command than the attackers, with any reasonable technology for transportation. But when I try to reproduce the argument, I can't convince myself. I would be interested whether anyone else can convince me. It looks to me like all you need is for them to be a couple of hundred years ahead in technology, and there wouldn't be much we could do. Assume a race with conventional flying saucer technology (things that go thousands of miles an hour and can turn instantly). It looks to me like they ought to be able to have complete control of the skies, and presumably rain down any sort of missle they want to (what could we do against missles with that kind of ability to turn?). It also looks like they could certainly land troops in just about any numbers they wanted to (limited by what they have, of course). It doesn't take much imagination to think of a reasonably portable "ray-gun" (laser?) that would make it very hard for us to face them even on the ground. Even with our current technology we can pretty well devastate anyone we want to. What stops us seems to be that we don't really want to, and that they would retaliate. But we couldn't retaliate against the aliens. So the interesting question is why they would want to invade us. I guess I am still optimistic enough that I find it hard to imagine what they could want from us that would be worth an interstellar war. I think a more interesting plot for Hanger 18 would have been a confrontation with the following parties: - some involved parties who smell a government coverup, and spend the whole movie chasing it down, as in this movie - the government, who get hold of a crashed flying saucer, somehow figure out how to talk to the inhabitants thereof, and quickly realize that the Prime Directive is there for good reason. If we get involved openly with the aliens, we get gobbled up by their superior culture, and lose any hope of an independent civilization with its own separate contribution to the galaxy. So they decide to try to suppress knowlege of the contact. I think that would lead to a more interesting conflict that the political motives used in the movie. I am not at all sure that if I could prove I had met an alien, I would immediately call a press conference. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 21-JAN "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #17 *** EOOH *** Date: 21 JAN 1981 0951-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #17 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Wednesday, 21 Jan 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 17 Today's Topics: SF TV - WHO is Dr. Who?, Future - Interstellar Invasion, SF Movies - Cambridge Fantastic Films & Flesh Gordon in LA & Computer/Action Films, Star Wars - Genealogy ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 January 1981 0308-est From: Barry Margolin About Dr. Who's vehicle: I have noticed a lot of misinformation about the vehicle in which Dr. Who travels. The device is called a TARDIS, which is an acronym for Time And Relative Dimension In Space, i.e. time-space machine. A TARDIS has the ability to change its outward appearance, and to move in time and space. The one in the series, which I believe the Doctor (he is always referred to as "The Doctor" on the show; I have never heard anyone say "Dr. Who") stole when he was exiled from the planet of the Time Lords, is in disrepair, and has trouble navigating and is also stuck in a particular form, that of an early 20th-century English Police Booth, which is slightly larger than a telephone booth. Of course, this is only its outward appearance. It is actually four- dimensional, and is many times larger on the inside than it is on the outside. In various episodes, we have had the opportunity to see many parts of the TARDIS, which include an auxiliary control room (most of the action in the TARDIS usually takes place in the main control room, which is about 25'x25', maybe larger) and a botanical garden. Most of the inside is very futuristic looking, and pretty cute considering the budget that the show is obviously on. Other points about Dr. Who: In last years episodes on PBS, the Doctor was not in as much disfavor with the rest of the Time Lords as I have heard mentioned in SF-Lovers. There were a couple in which he was actually sent on missions by the Time Lords, but the reason could be that they wanted him to prove his worthiness. There was another episode in which he was actually shown to be heir to the post of head Time Lord. He mainly seems to be just a happy-go-lucky guy with lots of mental power who likes to wander around space-time in the general spacial vicinity of the Solar System and save the asses of people who are beset upon by tyrants or by troubles of their own creation. He may get involved in a war and decide that a particular side is \good/ and help them win, although trying to shed as little blood as possible. He is an absolute whiz when it comes to technological stuff (except fixing the TARDIS), so if the problem happens to be mean androids, he usually comes up with cute solutions. Barmar ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jan 1981 1443-PST From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE Subject: re:invasion The Afghanis seem to holding out against the Russians with little more than muskets and cussedness vs. helicopter gunships and nerve gas. The usual guerilla warfare techniques should work even against death-rays and flying saucers (how different is a B-52 from a flying saucer to a Vietnamese peasant?). They might be able to sterilize the surface of the planet, but it would be hard to subdue it. And it's hard to see why they would want to wipe out the human race; there are no doubt a lot of empty rocks around. They would probably need slave labor more than lebensraum, and slaves have a hundred ways of fighting back. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jan 1981 11:08:46 EST From: David Mankins Subject: schlock films The Cinema Society of Cambridge runs a films society devoted entirely to cinema of the fantastic at the Ding Ho Restaurant/Constant Comedy, 13 Springfield Str., Inman Square, Cambridge. Phone: 661-7701, 497-1116, 289-0814. Two shows each night, at 7:30 and 9:30: the ticket donation is $2., and there is a one-drink minimum, but fruit juice, wine, and coffee, are okay. schedule: Jan 19 Attack of the Crab Monsters (Roger Corman, 1957) (Sorry I didn't send this in time -- this one was Great! -- you get to see where the Professor of Gilligan's Island learned to do those things with radios... Jan 26 Attack of the 50-foot Woman (Nathan Hertz Juran, 1958) (plus a trailer for next week's feature, The Tingler) Feb 2 The Tingler (William Castle, 1959). Don'T miss Vincent Price taking the screens first acid trip! Feb 9 The House on Haunted Hill (William Castle, 1958) Feb 16 I was a Teenage Werewolf (Gene Fowler, Jr., 1957) Starring Michael (Bonanza) Landon, Whit (Time Tunnel) Bissell, and Guy (Lost in Space) Williams. then starting in late February is a Peter Cushing series... ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jan 1981 1750-PST (Monday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: Flesh Gordon The following message was sent to me regarding Southern California play dates for "Flesh Gordon". The author of the message asked me to forward it to SF-LOVERS, possibly to avoid having people think he actually LIKED movies like that. Obviously he realizes that everyone already knows I think it's a great film, and my reputation is pretty tarnished anyway. So.... ------------------------------ Not-so-long-ago, in an SF-LOVERS not-so-far-away, some person or persons suggested that "FlEsh Gordon" was worth seeing (at least in preference to Flush, er, Flash Gordon) if ever it came to "a theater near you." Well... January 31 Fox Venice, 620 Lincoln Blvd., 392-3386/396-4215 $3.00 +Barbarella March 13 The ASCIT Movie/Baxter Lecture Hall, Caltech $1.00!!! Two showings: 7:30 and 10:00 pm 16mm, but a *strange* audience... (the Caltech Coffeehouse is open 'til 1am if you want a place to talk SF later (HINT^2)) March 20-21 Rialto, 1023 Fair Oaks, S. Pasadena, 799-9567 $3.00 +The First Nudie Musical ------------------------------ --Lauren-- ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jan 1981 09:13:58-PST From: CSVAX.presotto at Berkeley Subject: fun with platters When I was working at Data General about 7 years ago, a group of hardware types decided to see how far past the recommended speed they could spin a cheap disk. They didn't learn too much about the disk, but they did learn that the pieces could penetrate the 1/4 inch steel enclosure, and three sets of plaster board walls, and a cinder block structural wall. Luckily it happened at night and noone was around. Otherwise DG might have acquired a whole group of four foot tall engineers. Dave ------------------------------ DP@MIT-ML 01/16/81 22:27:53 Re: Mung On the subject of mangling disks. The flying drive stories I have heard are: During a minor earthquake some old IBM drive decided it had enough. Also during development a 1.5M vertical drive let it's platter go (supposedly at CDC somewhere) It traveled up two stories, then through an outside wall of a reinforced concrete building. Pieces were found 2 1/2 miles away. It was printed in a "5 years ago today" in something like Datamation. One of the people from DEC periferals misengineering told me of a test they did on some I think 80MB CDC drives. They spun them up to 7200 RPM, and discovered they now had a fixed disk drive. It seems the spindle swaged itself to the drive motor. As to tape rolling across the floor, MIT has a very long central corridor, running from the lobby of the main building due east to the other side of the campus (almost 1/4 mi). It has earned the name "infinite corridor". Add to this 1 possive/paranoid tape user. Buy junk tape. Add stickers and such to duplicate one of his. Have someone detain him in main lobby. Get two others to start at one end and roll. Tape rolls across lobby, out door, bounces down steps rolls across main street and gets run over by bus. Almost get to practice CPR. (We know the hall is due east/west, because twice a year, the sun sets down the length of it.) enjoy, Jeff ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jan 1981 1356-EST From: Neal Feinberg Subject: To Kill a Disk Howdy! Well, lest I wished to clobber a disk, I would merely coat the platters with chunky peanut-butter and pop them into a drive. Better yet, coat with peanut-butter then bake for a while before mounting. --Chiron ------------------------------ DUFFEY@MIT-AI 01/21/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last message in this digest. It comments on what the people at Marvel Comics may or may not know about the Star Wars Universe. People who are not familiar with the Star Wars series may not wish to read further. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jan 1981 at 0059-CST From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Marvel Comics & TESB ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ According to The Man from Lucasfilm I asked at Aggiecon last spring, the true STAR WARS universe is \only/ what appears in the actual films, and is not bound by anything in the various spin-off comics or novels, including the novelized versions of the films. Whatever happens or is stated outside the films may be considered "alternate SW universes". The folks at Marvel m-a-y know something we don't, but I fear it is unlikely to deter them from making use of contrary details like the winged men's memory of the 3 Jedi, Obi-Wan, Vader, AND Luke's father, if they felt it would enhance a story-line. Also, as I recall, that issue of the comic was prior to the "revelation" of TESB. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 22-JAN "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #18 *** EOOH *** Date: 22 JAN 1981 0713-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #18 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Thursday, 22 Jan 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 18 Today's Topics: SF Books - Riverworld & Sladek & Roderick & Wheels within Wheels, SF Movies - Monitors, SF TV - WHO is Dr. Who?, SF Music - Mercury, Future - Interstellar Invasion, Sundials and the Infinite Corridor, Star Wars - Genealogy, Star Trek - The Computer ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Jan 1981 (Wednesday) 1135-EDT From: ROSSID at WHARTON-10 (David Rossien) Subject: Riverworld gift packs Did anyone see the "Christmas" paperback gift packs of the River- world series. There were four books alright, but the fourth was NOT "The Magic Labyrinth", but "Riverworld", and anthology with only one Riverworld story (and a good deal of lousy other ones in my opinion). The publishers must have a good deal of chutzpah to try to pull something like that! -Dave ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jan 1981 2050-EST From: Rob Stanzel Subject: A Couple Capsule Reviews+ Hello, all; In the past various people have exhorted you to read John Sladek's "Mechasm"; I'm a fan of Sladek, and with great joy read his new collection of stories, "The Best of John Sladek" (not that there's much to choose from; in the past there's been only two novels published.) The collection is filled with Sladek's absurdist genius, and the first story (for example) is a real zinger---perhaps the best. Some of the stories are based on tired SF themes, but never without some bizarre twist. There are also some parodies in the back of such authors as Clarke and Heinlein (and Gernsback, but how many of you have actually read "Ralph C4F+" or whatever it is?? (Don't answer that!)) The parody of Ballard's "The Crystal World" is terrific. In any case, I highly recommend it, and "Mechasm", and "The Mueller-Fokker Effect." Side note: in one of those novel's "About the Author" blurbs, it was stated that Sladek was working on a partially computer-written (!) novel called "Roderick, or The Education of A Young Machine." Does anybody know whatever happened to that project? The subject of libertarian SF has broached this list in the past-- I recently read F. Paul Smith's "Wheels Within Wheels", and enjoyed it. Those of you who objected to L. Neil Smith's long PolySci tracts in "Probability Broach" may enjoy WwW somewhat more...the tone is less insistent, and more interested in the relationships between individuals. I caught onto F. Paul Smith from his ss in the January Analog; the Biolog of that issue mentions his new novel, "An Enemy of the State." Anyone read it? I haven't been able to find it yet. Lastly, on the subject of camp movies, I've never seen "The Monitors" mentioned here. It is a version of Keith Laumer's ultra-obscure novel of the same name (I live in Ohio, and had to send to a PA library to get a copy!) Anyway, the movie is great, and if it's ever shown on late-night TV, don't miss it. Write via WASTE, Rob ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jan 1981 (Wednesday) 1908-EDT From: PLATTS at WHARTON-10 (Steve Platt) Subject: Inside the TARDIS While watching the series, I remember several scenes taking place inside the TARDIS, including a couple of chases... the sets and places inside it included not only every spare shot they had in the studios, but apparently most of London, as well! There were sections rather obviously taken in art museums, warehouses, garages, abandoned buildings, etc. etc. etc. Definitely creative filming! ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jan 1981 (Wednesday) 1905-EDT From: PLATTS at WHARTON-10 (Steve Platt) Subject: Music request (Hey Leor, why didn't you get this one?) Yes, indeed, it is Vangelis (amazing how he keeps popping up everywhere, isn't it?). The music (from the Ford Lynx commer- cials, in case some forgot) is from the opening moments to the album "China" (Polydor 6199). Someone at a record store told me (when I purchased it around 3 months ago) that it was out of print, but according to the 12/80 Schwann's, it's still being printed... ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jan 1981 1216-EST From: SCRIMSHAW at MIT-XX Subject: Alien Invasion If an alien race capable of visiting Earth really wanted to enslave us humans, it would probably be pretty easy. All they would need is a superior knowledge of biological and gas warfare. They could dose us with a disease that kills faster than we can come up with a cure and make the price for the cure enslavement. This sort of warfare may not be to popular here for a variety of reasons, but there isn't much that would stop a bunch of BEMs from using it. ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jan 1981 1025-EST From: Steven J. Zeve Subject: Invasion from space I suspect that the invasion from space would be very impractical if the two sides were closely matched in technology. Even if they're not evenly matched some of the traditional advantages of home territory offer immense benefits to the defenders, like knowing what's over the next hill and having shorter supply lines and being able to bring up new cannon fodder faster. The best thing going for the defenders in the invasion will be the inflexible attitude and style of the invaders (we suffered from this in Viet Nam and the Russians are suffering from it in Afghanistan). steve z. ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jan 1981 1611-PST From: Dave Dyer Subject: Alien invaders I don't think invaders, alien or otherwise, necessarily require that it be profitable or possible to subdue the invadee. Like mountaineering, invading is done "because its there". Of all the notable invaders in human history, the biggest (and best at it) were egomaniacs who merely considered conquest to be exciting and worthwhile for its own sake. If you were a bored, sophisticated, militarily inclined lord of a solar system near here, what better way to keep life exciting than to take on the near-impossible task of conquering those obnoxious pink-and-brown aliens of Earth! What really does protect us is the economics of space travel. Unless there really is a way to circumvent relativity, the only thing that will ever be shipped in quantity between stars is information. ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jan 1981 11:23 PST From: Hamilton.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: sundials and such You would only know the hall to be due east/west if the sun rose AND set down it on the same day. ANY hall directed between the angles of sunset on summer solstice and sunset on winter solstice would have sunset down the hall approx. twice a year. If the building were located on the equator, then sunset would take place down the hall every day iff the hall were due east-west. --Bruce ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jan 1981 1311-EST From: MD at MIT-XX Subject: Infinite Corridor The corridor would only be due east-west if the setting sun was aligned with it on the vernal and autumnal equinoxes. As it turns out, the "Infinite Corridor Sunsets" take place one month before and one month after the winter solstice. If I remember correctly, the corridor is 15 degrees off east-west. (We wouldn't want the readers of SF-Lovers to be confused about something which was known by primitive peoples thousands of years ago.) Mike ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jan 1981 1007-EST From: Steven J. Zeve Subject: TESB and Marvel The people at Marvel consistently state that they have no inside information. I got the feeling that TESB threw them for a loop. steve z. ------------------------------ DUFFEY@MIT-AI 01/22/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last message in this digest. It returns the discussion of the Enterprise's computer back to the episode "Wolf in the Fold". People who are not familiar with this episode may not wish to read further. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jan 1981 1523-EST From: MLEASE at BBNE Subject: More nits re: Star Trek, "Wolf in the Fold" I still don't see how merely asking the computer to compute pi would bomb it out to that degree; shouldn't it simply make it quietly munge away on to infinity? After all, several present-day computers have been given the problem of computing pi; that's why we know so many of its digits now. Granted, the purpose of the problem would still be served; assuming you really *could* convince such a (presumably) sophisticated computer to dedicate *all* of its resources to solving the problem; but the effect shouldn't be quite so spectacular. Also, if the computer were "possessed" by Jack the Ripper in the first place, and therefore an intelligent, reasoning being, how could Spock be able to override it? Hypnosis, maybe? Mike Lease (MLEASE@BBNE) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 23-JAN "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #19 *** EOOH *** Date: 23 JAN 1981 0714-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #19 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Friday, 23 Jan 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 19 Today's Topics: SF Books - Fiction into Fact & Wheels within Wheels & Venus Belt & Ringworld, Future - Interstellar Invasion, Physics Imaginary - MT (revisited), SF Movies - Computer/Action Films, Sundials and the Infinite Corridor, Spoiler - Titan ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 JAN 1981 1655-PST From: FORWARD at USC-ECL Subject: Fiction turning into fact A friend of mine is looking for examples of where ideas in science fiction had an impact on the space program. If enough can be found, then there might be a short show as part of the Shuttle launch pre-frenzy. Any ideas out there? Example: The story "Clipper Ships of Space" in Analog (somewhen) led to the JPL studies on Solar Sails (which have yet to fly, unfortunately). They are looking for solid connections, not "Buck Rogers had rockets, and now we are using rockets". Good ones are surprisingly hard to find. ------------------------------ Date: 22 JAN 1981 2058-EST From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: WHEELS WITHIN WHEELS was a thoroughly obnoxious book; the characters spent most of their time worrying about statist conspiracies to subvert the happy natives and convince them that they really were being unjustly discriminated against --- a really stupid claim to make to people familiar with the history of this country. ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jan 1981 1753-PST From: Mike Leavitt Subject: SPEAKING OF NEIL SMITH . . . Brief reviews of L. Neil Smith's brand new libertarian SF: The Venus Belt (in paper as of 1/5/81): Nanoreview: If you liked Probability Broach, you'll love Venus Belt. If you thought PB was a bit much, you may like VB anyway! Microreview: VB picks up the universe, the characters, and the style of PB, but since it assumes you've read the latter, it doesn't spend all of its time telling you how the Confederacy of North America got where it did. Instead, it spends much of its time on a very quickly-plotted action/mystery sf story. The gadgets are great, the twists fairly unpredictable, and the fun quite substantial. If you are into Libertarian politics, the in jokes and parodies are very well done, but not being into Libertarian politics doesn't leave you feeling left out -- you just don't know what you missed. In any case, it is good, contemporary SF. Have fun. Mike ------------------------------ FAUST@MIT-ML 01/21/81 10:59:23 Re: RINGWORLD I have just finished Ringworld for the first time. It was EXCELLENT! Good characterizations, and very interesting descriptions of what is obviously a very alien world. Also, I liked the alien races described. They were quite believable, if not somewhat too human, although much better than the usual exactly human characters in so called alien bodies that we often find in stories. (Also, for those of you who might recall my flaming about plot-filler sex scenes in Tower of Glass by Silverberg a few months ago, the type of sex in Ringworld is more to my taste. Fits in naturally, not used as plot filler.) Since we have been on the topic of relativistic effects lately, I would like to bring up one nit. One of the types of hyper drive used in the "Long Shot" could only be started outside of the "gravity well" caused by large masses. Well, that seems reasonable enough. But at one point when they are leaving the group of 5 travelling Puppeteer planets to go to the Ringworld, they say that they need go out a much smaller distance since the gravity well around 5 planets is much less than the gravity well around a star. Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't the gravity well around 5 planets travelling at "just below the speed of light" be QUITE substantial due to the relativistic mass expansion? Not being too up on relativistic physics, I might have this wrong, but I seem to recall an equation for mass which gets very large as velocity nears speed of light (same basic equation used for time and length?). COMMENTS? All in all, I would highly recommend this book to anyone who hasn't already read it (if there are any such people reading this list!). I look forward to reading "Ringworld Engineers" which I assume is my logical next choice in the "Known Space" "series". Happy reading, Greg ------------------------------ Date: 22 January 1981 10:50 est From: JRDavis.Multics at MIT-Multics Subject: Space Invaders Motives If you are willing to consider invasion for non-rational reasons (i.e. just for "fun"), you should also begin thinking about other non-rational things They might do. Rather than invade, they might simply blow up our sun. Suppose they decide to send a cubic mile of anti-matter at us (Sun or Earth). They have to be a little patient, big deal. So let us hope that They are rational, self- interested beings. ------------------------------ JMTURN@MIT-AI 01/11/81 02:33:48 Re: The January F & SF has the traditional Isaac Asimov science article. This month he ended a multi-issue series on the neutrino. He states (in order to support his "I want the universe to be closed" fetish) that experiments in the USSR and other places show the neutrino may have a mass as high as (I think) 2.7 Electron Volts. Anyone else have information regarding this weighty subject? In other news, I have been pondering the nature of consciousness, more specifically, what keeps the chain of awareness going. To begin with: Let us postulate Tom Swift and His Amazing Atom Manipulator. He can move atoms around (any atoms) to make whatever he wants. He takes a look at you, fiddles with a knob or two, and creates a duplicate, right down to the energy levels in the shells of the electrons. He (the copy) and you both can claim to be the original, and you both think you are, until the copy notices he is in the machine and you aren't. But suppose you were told the machine would move you (a teleporter instead of a copier). He then arranges for the copy to appear in another location. The original you, version 1.0, immediately knows he has gone nowhere. But the copy, version 1.1, thinks it worked. So what, you say, isn't this just Niven's "Theory and Practice of Teleportation". So far, yes. But what happens if instead of using different atoms to create a copy, Tom were to store the location of all your atoms, disintegrate you, then reassemble you using the same atoms, each in the same location (reintegrate?). Will your consciousness continue, or is a new one created? The lousy part is that even if you could do it, you still wouldn't know. The copy would feel as if the chain continued, but if you died, that isn't much comfort. There was in fact, a story (who's title I forgot) dealing with a company that claimed to rejuvenate you, but really just made a younger copy who went off happily, leaving a slave, with no legal identity). And of course, the new one would return happily in 10-20 years to do it again. Any one know the title? What's the point of all this? Consider, if there is some quantum limit to how much of a bodies original 'identity' can be changed, this is how much matter must be actually taken to the site of a teleporter's reassembly area (which could be as high the entire brain). It is also the amount that a rejuve- nation system like Niven's rejuvenation machine must retain of the original. Does anyone have any info on research into this area (which is certainly theoretical/philosophical since we can't borrow Tom's machine...)? James Turner ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jan 1981 at 0851-CST From: clyde at UTEXAS-11 (Clyde Hoover) Subject: a clean disk is a happy one.. A particularly demented friend of mine, upon looking at the Control Data drives we have here that resemble washing machines, suggested pouring detergent into one to clean the heads. Thinking about it, that would be much more impressive than the top loading Ampex drive that ate it's lid gasket, and though most of it just floated around in small pieces or sunk to the bottom of the drive well, it still made an impressive sound (but not much damage) when the heads hit the rubber. Now then, there is this NOVA drive I would like to break.... Anyone got a box of Tide?? ------------------------------ Date: 22 JAN 1981 2051-EST From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: MIT's Infinite Corridor is \not/ E-W oriented, and is only 1/8 mile long (but that's quite long enough). From my recollection of maps of the area, the west end is about 15 degrees south of the east end; the sun shines straight down the corridor about six weeks before and after the winter solstices. (Given this misinformation, the reader is invited to discalculate the latitude of MIT.) ------------------------------ DUFFEY@MIT-AI 01/23/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last message in this digest. It discusses a problem with the end of Varley's Titan. People who are not familiar with this novel may not wish to read further. ------------------------------ Date: 22 January 1981 10:43 est From: JRDavis.Multics at MIT-Multics Subject: Varley's TITAN: Spoiler Nit Towards the end of Titan, Cirocco and Gaby parachute down one of the hollow spokes of the rotating Titan. Sorry, but the result of that is that you hit the wall, which spins around to clobber you. To fall "straight" down the spoke (keeping equidistant from sides) you need some force to work on you, to bring your speed up to the speed of the inside surface of Titan. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 24-JAN "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #20 *** EOOH *** Date: 24 JAN 1981 0910-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #20 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Saturday, 24 Jan 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 20 Today's Topics: SF Books - Yolanda & Venus Belt & Rejuvenation Story & Ringworld, SF TV - The New Buck Rogers, Physics Imaginary - MT (revisited), Future - Interstellar Invasion, SF Movies - Computer/Action Films, Spoiler - Titan Problems ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 23 Jan 1981 1000-EST From: LS.MELTSNER at MIT-EECS Subject: Yolanda, L. Neil Smith, and other trash 1) MITSFS, in its vast collection of SF, has the second Yolanda story. Apparently quite crude (i. e. not subtle), the following might be useful to lovers of trashy books: Yolanda #2: Slaves of Space, Dominique Verseau, Grove Press, (c) 1976, $1.95 Whirlwind Book Co., 80 Fifth Ave., NY, NY, 10011, was listed as the distributor. I hope this helps those of you who were intrigued by the discussion a few weeks back. 2) L. Neil Smith is vaguely interesting, even though the ending of The Venus Belt was useless, ridiculous, and perhaps impossible. (Look MA, no spoiler!!!) Political "Philosophy" was reprehensible, as was the entire book. Several bad puns, (i.e. distracting, cutesy, etc.) further mar the story. Best bet: ignore, take a walk in the inner city, and wonder why nothing works perfectly in the real world. (regardless of political creed) IN short, the book (TBV) lacks characterization, action, development, and reason. (Though there appears to be a half-dead plot staggering around in the ruins.) Don't Buy!!!! 3) Story about the rejuve process that duplicates younger selves and leaves the old guy to slavery, is by Orson Scott Card in OMNI, and I think it was published last spring. Good story. (See, I do like something other than my own inflated ego.) Yours for the low price of $9.95, (tapes $11.95) Capt. Polaroid ------------------------------ Date: 23 January 1981 1102-EST From: Hank Walker at CMU-10A Subject: story about rejuvenation Re the story about making a duplicate that's younger and using the old one as slave. I don't recall it's title, but it appeared in OMNI last year I think. ------------------------------ Date: 01/23/81 1131-EDT From: KG Heinemann (SORCEROR at LL) Subject: Greg Faust's Criticism of Relativity Treatment in RINGWORLD Greg Faust's criticism of the treatment of relativisitic effects, in RINGWORLD, rests on a basic misunderstanding of the physical situations which give rise to such effects. Relativistic changes of mass, length, and time intervals result from comparing these properties when an object moves at different speeds, in the observer's frame of reference. The magnitude of such changes depends on the ratio of the difference in speeds to the speed of light. The "Long Shot" and its crew should not experience a significant increase in the masses of the Puppeteer homeworlds, because their velocity, with respect to those planets, is small. The Puppeteer home-worlds are travelling "just under the speed of light" with respect to the Milky Way galaxy, not the "Long Shot", at the time that the hyper-drive is turned on. Since the "Long Shot" is the relevant observer of these planets' masses, their velocity relative to the Milky Way has no effect on the physical situation in question. Enjoy, KGH ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jan 1981 0929-PST From: Tom Wadlow Subject: Mass of the Puppeteer Rosetta and Buck Rogers Since the spacecraft was visiting the Puppeteer homeworld(s), it was travelling at the same (possibly relativistic) speed as them. This means that they were operating in the same frame of reference, and thus any relativistic effects were unobservable. Presumably they just slowed down a bit to allow the Puppeteer worlds to move away from them. The only way that they would have noticed a relativistic mass effect is if the Rosetta had passed them at a velocity close to that of light. Since they (probably) didn't slow down quite that quickly, the assumption (that the gravity well of five planets is smaller than that of a star) is apparently true. On to other things: I watched the second new episode of Buck Rogers last night. What a piece of garbage!! Near as I can figure, the plot seemed to be about a war between people who could take their heads off (yes, thats what I said) and people who couldn't. Spock's father (Mark Lenard) was an ambassador for the people with removable heads, and he was in love with Wilma Deering (who, I assume, is incapable of removing her head). Buck finds out that Lenard has (pardon me but I just can't resist) lost his head over Wilma and tries to warn her but finally gives up at the attempt. There were some other minor plot twists but, all in all it was pretty miserable. One small point: As I mentioned earlier, Mark Lenard is Spock's father. In the episode of Star Trek that he appeared (yes, I know that he appeared in a few) he was married to Jane Wyman, Spock's mother. But Jane Wyman used to be married to Ronald Reagan, right?? What if they......naw, Reagan's ears aren't pointed at all. Oh, well. (now if Mark Lenard had been married to Kristin, and J.R. found out about it.............) ------------------------------ Date: 24 Dec 1980 (Wednesday) 0357-EDT From: SHRAGE at WHARTON-10 (Jeffrey Shrager) Subject: The philosophy of personal identity The problem that James Turner is flaming about is commonly called "personal identity". That is, the relations that equate certain matter in time with certian other matter (some perhaps the same) at another time over the concept of a "person". Less obscurely; If all the cells in our bodies die every N days or so and are replaced by entirely new cells made up of completely new atoms then what right have I to say that I am the same Jeff Shrager that wrote to SF-Lovers several days ago? There are many many philosophical arguments surrounding this subject and many of the example used are much like James's machinery. I highly recommend the book "Personal Identity" edited by John Perry [UC Press, 1975, 250 pgs] for some very well written and very clear articles on this exact subject. This subject crosses mind/body problem in several aspects (for example, the "memory theory" of personal identity states that person-stages belong to the same person iff the later could contain an experience which is a memory of a reflective awareness of an experience contained in the earlier. [whew!]. In any case, the arguments are nicely made and fun to read. -- Jeff Shrager [aka. WVO Quine] ------------------------------ Date: 01/23/81 1147-EDT From: JSOUTH at LL Subject: interstellar invasion and crashing disks Re planetary conquest: The argument is reminicent of a pseudo-book in This Fortress World. (J.E.Gunn) The passage in the pseudo-book (The Dynamics of Galactic Power(?)) is only valid for the universe of the book, if that. TFW postulates human populated worlds with rough technological parity. Some parts of the argument are more subtle though. For example, suppose the attack succeeds: the commander of the attacking forces is now the commander of the defending forces. Let the home world try to impose its will on the new defenders. Add a speed of light limitation, and even the loyalty of the attackers is no longer enough, their society has vanished or mutated (ie The Forever War). If the theatre of operations is too far flung, the species may be gone! Thus planetary conquest is more a matter of setting up an independent colony than yielding any direct material benefit to the attackers society. Indescriminate destruction of the planet to root out defenders is therefore out. well.... this could go on and on. On another matter, I've noticed that all our wonderful disc destruction stories are at least second hand. I don't think anyone out there has actually reported a good visual of his/her own observation. Anyone interested in a good second hand report of a hippogriff? ------------------------------ DUFFEY@MIT-AI 01/24/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following 2 messages are the last messages in this digest. They discuss a technical problem at the end of Varley's Titan. The first message explains away the problem in one way. The second message gives the answer that Varley gave in Wizard, the sequel to Titan. People who are not familiar with these novels may not wish to read further. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jan 1981 0935-EST From: JoSH Subject: picking the Titan nit (spoiler, I guess) The only time I ever jumped, the parachute gave a downward speed of 7 mph and a sideways one (in dead air) of 5 mph. (It was steerable too.) The parachute has slots on one side which lose air, scooting it the other way. You wouldn't have any trouble beating the Coriolis force -- in fact, you would have to keep circling not to hit the walls on your own. --JoSH ------------------------------ Date: 23 January 1981 09:45-EST (Friday) From: Andrew G. Malis Subject: Varley's TITAN: Spoiler Nit In Varley's Wizard (Titan's sequel) he answers this point. It turns out that if you start from the side of the spoke opposite from the oncoming wall, and free fall, you will just clear the oncoming wall and leave the spoke. At that time, you can "hit the silk". Andy ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 25-JAN "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #21 *** EOOH *** Date: 25 JAN 1981 1338-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #21 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Sunday, 25 Jan 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 21 Today's Topics: Looking Backwards, SF Books - Libertarian SF & Oath of Fealty, SF Movies - Dark Star, Future - Interstellar Invasions & CA Paranoia, Star Wars - SW FANAC, Alternities - You don't suppose..., Trek - The Computer ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Jan 1981 0220-EST From: The Moderator Subject: Looking Backwards... Those of us who have been here from the beginning know that SF-LOVERS was started by Richard Brodie in Fall 1979. Since then it has grown into one of the largest electronic mailing lists in existence. Richard has now written a short story about computers and electronic mail entitled "Time Enough for Mail". Due to length it has been setup for FTP distribution. Everyone interested in reading this story should obtain the file from the site which is most convenient for them. If you cannot do so, please send mail to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@MIT-AI and I will be happy to make sure that you get a copy. Please obtain your copies in the near future however, since the files will be deleted in one week. A copy of the material will also be available from the SF-LOVERS archives. Thanks go to Richard Brodie, Richard Lamson, Doug Philips, and Don Woods for providing space for the materials on their systems. Site Filename MIT-AI AI:DUFFEY;SFLVRS ORIGIN CMUA TEMP:ORIGIN.SFL[A210DP0Z] PARC-MAXC [Maxc2]SFLOVERS-ORIGIN.PRESS SU-AI ORIGIN.SFL[T,DON] MIT-Multics >udd>sm>rsl>sf-lovers>sflovers-origin.text [Note, you can TYPE or FTP the file from SAIL without an account.] ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jan 1981 0901-PST From: Mike Leavitt Subject: Venus Belt and political philosophy Capt. P's problem with Venus Belt is entirely understandable. Political philosophical reprehensibility can make the rest of the book a real bummer. My appreciation of the philosophy might well make me willing to overlook a few of its flaws. The ending, for example, is certainly outrageous (and it is clearly, deliberately so). It should be as offensive to a Liberal Environmentalist as an obscene characterization of Jesus Christ would be to a religious Christian. And for the same reasons: it hits where they live. Critics' reactions to the books simply /must/ be read in light of this source of critical illumination. What I would really like to read is a review of Venus Belt and Probability Broach by someone who is neutral towards Liber- tarianism. I don't mean ignorant. I mean someone who knows of it, and is neither a gung-ho supporter nor a vehement antagonist. I am obviously not in that position; but neither are the folks who have so energetically disliked the books. (And I obviously don't mean someone -- pro or con -- who merely neglects to provide their positions.) Mike ------------------------------ POURNE@MIT-MC 01/24/81 04:41:38 Re: Cheers? To: NIVEN at MIT-MC, POURNELLE at MIT-MC Awaken me early in the morning, mother, for I'm to be Queen of the May.. Actually, Niven and Pournelle are pleased (and relieved) to announce that after ten years they have FINISHED the novel OATH OF FEALTY, which will go to the publisher this week and will probably be in print about Fall of 1981. OATH stars a cast of splendid characters, telepathic love-making, gratuitous zaps at Luddites, needles stuck into Proxmire, and the best city you've ever seen. Don't fail to miss it if you can. JEP ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jan 1981 (Monday) 1546-EDT From: SHARER at WHARTON-10 (Bill Sharer) Subject: Dark Star I was just finished reading the classic Dark Star and was wondering about the stories I had heard about the movie itself. The way I understand it, the movie never got much publicity because the distribution company went into receivership. Does anybody know anything about this? Also I'd like to know if there is any other SF that has bombs with a sense of purpose in life. By the way for those of you who haven't read it yet ....it is worth the time! Bill Sharer ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jan 1981 11:29 PST From: Ayers at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: Interstellar Invasions A. C. Clarke, in one of his non-fiction works, discussed the speed-of-light difficulties in running an interstellar war and asked: "What if the news of the American Revolution had reached England during Victoria's reign, and her orders on how to deal with the situation had been received in North America during Eisenhower's presidency?" ------------------------------ Date: 24 JAN 1981 1055-PST From: RODOF at USC-ECL Subject: Paranoia in Southern California The other day, a friend of mine brought up a point on which I had been musing, but was loath to mention for fear I was exaggerating the situation. However, emboldened by this revelation that others, too, have noticed, I thought I'd bring it up for the SF-Lovers who happen to reside in California. California, as you know, is well known for its earth- quakes. It always has been. Earthquakes and the possibility of the Big One have been acknowledged and pretty much ignored for years. However, during the past few months, all I hear on the news is earthquake safety standards, earthquake drills, emergency earthquake measures, earthquake prediction studies, and earthquake warning procedures. All this for no apparent reason. (A few small temblers that did no damage, and Mt. St. Helens, which may not be related). Is there a possibility that The Government May Know Something We Don't? Are they trying to Break It To Us Gently? Do they perhaps know that there will be the Big One soon, but don't know exactly when? Is California too big to evacuate? Have you noticed any Calif. politicians moving into one-story housing? (or was the first assumption, that I'm nuts, the more likely assumption) Stan ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jan 1981 2051-PST (Saturday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: Lucas and Sex First of all, just because Lucas is married does not mean he is not anti-sex. I am sure there are plenty of married couples who can verify that statement! In any case, HJJH's comments on the sorts of "disgusting" things that HAVE been printed only proves my point: Lucas is pressing his luck if he really thinks he can successfully "filter" satire -- and that only "certain types" are unacceptable. The very act of letting so much get published, without challenge, tends to dilute any future possibility of taking action against one particular entity, solely because he did not like the subject matter of their PARTICULAR satire! Anyway, we are straying from the real point here... which is the age-old issue of censorship. I personally feel that ALL censorship of issues not related to concerns like national security is simply WRONG. This is not an easy stance to take... it means that, to be true to my statement, I have to be willing to accept some of the most sick, perverted, and generally distasteful materials that sometimes flow through the media. I had a girlfriend who accused me of being the "typical" male chauvinist when I told her I did NOT support legislation that would outlaw abominations such as the "snuff" films... I would agree that such films are awful and degrading, but you cannot START censoring without opening the floodgates and risking some very basic freedoms. I would be very curious to see some discussion of such issues here on SF-Lovers. After all, we are generally talking about media, be it written, film, or record, and all media is subject to outside pressures to "control" its content... --Lauren-- P.S. As an opener, let me remind everyone that the incidence of organized bookburning in this country has increased by a factor of something like 10 in the last year. The so-called "Moral Majority" in particular seems very comfortable engaging in this sort of "helpful" activity. Will YOUR favorite novel be next? --LW-- ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jan 1981 10:50 PST From: Stewart at PARC-MAXC Subject: Protector Niven fans beware. No experimenting on your own... AP Warnings of a Chemical Time Bomb GALVESTON, Texas - With eight cases of thallium poisoning confirmed and six more suspected, alarmed health investigators warn that chemical time bombs of the rare, banned metal could be lodged inside the bodies of many residents of the upper Texas Gulf Coast. ------------------------------ DUFFEY@MIT-AI 01/25/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last message in this digest. It returns to the discussion of the Enterprise's computer back to the episode "Wolf in the Fold". People who are not familiar with this episode may not wish to read further. ------------------------------ PCR@MIT-MC 01/22/81 07:40:31 Re: Star Trek's computer in "Wolf in the Fold" It occurs to me that the being who took over the computer could, when Spock started the pi calculation, just move his memory image onto the mass storage devices. Then, the computer would be completely taken over by the calculation, Spock and Kirk would get bored and stop the calculation, and when the system re-booted, "Jack" could move out of mass storage, and the whole mess would start over. Of course if he did that, Spock could go to the machine room and dismount the volume that "Jack" was hiding on... ...phil ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 26-JAN "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #22 *** EOOH *** Date: 26 JAN 1981 1001-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #22 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Monday, 26 Jan 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 22 Today's Topics: SF Books - Fiction into Fact & Libertarian SF, SF Movies - Horrible SF Movies, Future - CA Paranoia & Feminist Utopias, Star Wars - SW FANAC, Star Trek - The Computer ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 25 JAN 1981 2010-EST From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: fiction into fact It is commonly believed that the first detailed description of remotely controlled manipulators was in Heinlein's WALDO, which is why the common name for these devices is "waldoes"---but that doesn't apply (so far as I can see) to the space program since things like the Voyager soil sampler operated by program rather than as a direct extension of a human hand. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jan 1981 1600-EST From: LS.MELTSNER at MIT-EECS Subject: The Venus Belt I have gotten a bit of flack about my comment on TVB's political philosophy. I would like to make a few more specific remarks about hard-core libertarianism. 1) Everything in TVB worked too well. This seems to be a common problem in worlds designed by libertarians. Smith himself gives an inkling of the dubious value of a restitution-based justice system when he comments that the Belt is full of people who ran away from their obligations. Without strong social pressure against people who do not fulfill their obligations, restitution- based justice does not work. 2) The concept that money will solve everything is false. If you own a piece of land that has the last members of an almost extinct species on it, and you kill them, you have done future generations a great disservice. Unfortunately, there is no one to plead their case in court, or even any way to calculate the harm of having one less species. 3) Competition rapidly will be replaced by collusion. People are not all very nice and will use the age-old methods of terrorism and gangsterism to protect their own livelihood. Just try to start a vending machine company in Boston, and you will see how fast the other companies will react. I would also suggest a good history of the Standard Oil Company for a further justification of this point. 4) You cannot have Athens without the slaves. The last great triumph of democracy was Athens, where a large slave class was supporting a small class of people who had the time to be cultured and democratic. Certainly, many of the libertarian beliefs are valuable. However, the whole concept of restitution as replacement for justice (being a firm believer in punishment) is morally abhorrent to me, having been mugged many times, and having had a close relative shot by a two-bit punk. Sure, legalize dope and speeding, drop the minimum wage and public education --- just don't try to make me believe that money is a substitute for human life. Capt. Polaroid ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jan 1981 1610-EST From: LS.MELTSNER at MIT-EECS Subject: TVB flame As an addendum to my previous flame on The Venus Belt, I'd like to mention that the reason the political philosophy is being discussed, and not the book, is the fact that the book itself is quite poor. The only valuable part, perhaps, is the philosophy, and that is why we are arguing. Even a hard-core believer in libertarianism should admit that the book is poorly written. Even The Probability Broach was written better than TVB. To me, it just looks like L. Neil Smith is bucking for the Prometheous Award. Capt. Polaroid ------------------------------ APPLE@MIT-MC 01/25/81 03:51:48 I was talking to a friend the other day and telling him about some of the worst SF movies I've seen. I remembered one about the Van Allen radiation belt catching on fire, and being put out by the explosion of a nuclear missile, but I couldn't remember the name or any of the actors. Can anyone help me? - Jim Cox [ This movie is Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea and stars the glass nosed submarine Seaview. The VttBotS TV series was based on this movie. -- RDD ] ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jan 1981 1232-PST From: Daul at OFFICE Subject: The Big One (earthquake) I work for the Office of Earthquake Studies for the US Geological Survey in Menlo Park, California. OES is charged with learning about the different aspects of the earth's behavior as they relate to earthquakes. We will not keep information from the public. We (ideally) would think that we could see something brewing 2-3 years ahead of time (we may be wrong). If that is the case then we will heavily instrument the area in question. There is a Earthquake Council that would look over the information before releasing the information to the state. The survey has been a very responsible organ of the government (my opinion of course). When we were asked to look into the geology of northern California around the Humbolt Nuclear Plant. We said that it was not a good location seismically. The DOE came to us after the release of our report and asked if we would "tone" it down. We refused. Anyway...the people will not be kept from our information (the realtors would rather we didn't release it). Up to this moment there is no more reason to believe the "the big one" is just around the corner any more than say 5 years ago. We do seem to have entered a more active (seismically) time in California history. I think that Mt. St. Helens has brought out the power ($$) of natural disasters. Therefore we are hearing more about what WILL happen in northern and southern California. I would heed the warning of being prepared. We might not know when it is going to happen. I wish I knew more about the state's plans for how to supply millions of people with water, food and law. --Bill ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jan 1981 0623-PST From: Mike Leavitt Subject: Feminist utopias wanted Material passed on by friends, of possible interest: "With the sponsorship of the Center for the Study of Women and Sex Roles of the Graduate Center of the City University of New York, a special issue of the journal 'Women's Studies' on the theme of women and utopian societies will be produced. For more than a decade, feminists have been engaged in the analysis and criticism of patriarchal institutions; the editors of this issue feel the time has come to begin to envision viable alternative societies that would be non-sexist, non-racist, and generally egalitarian. Contributions might include architectural blueprints, environmental plans, critical essays on utopian works already published, or utopian experiments already tried, poems, plays, and other fictional works. We welcome new forms well as new ideas. Send material by April 30, 1981 to: Elaine Baruch Assoc. Professor of English, York College, CUNY 310 East 46 Street New York, NY 10017 or Ruby Rohrlich, Professor of Anthropology Manhattan C. C., CUNY 303 West 66 Street New York, NY 10023" [ Please send contributions directly to them, not to Leavitt, please -- MRL ] ------------------------------ Date: 25 JAN 1981 2044-EST From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: censorship I am severely uncomfortable when considering pornography, since such a large portion of it is exclusively directed against women. You are probably familiar with at least the popular press reports of a Scandinavian study which concluded that freedom of distribution of pornographic material either did not affect or reduced the incidence of sex involving unconsenting parties (I use that term because "sex crimes" tends to be applied to outre behavior between consenting individuals, which I don't consider a proper matter for external regulation); Unfortunately, there are now several challenges to these results, both claims that the original results were inaccurate and claims that the results don't apply in this country (which wouldn't surprise me, looking at the relative incidence of violence here and in Europe). This leaves us with the observation that some portion of current material which is pornographic rather than erotic could be con- sidered an incitement to riot --- certainly there is a disturbing correlation between the rise in sexual abuse of children and the rise of material in which children (really children, not Lolita types) are portrayed as ecstatic recipients of sexual attention. Under the circumstances, it is hardly implausible that pornog- raphy has become a "women's issue", no matter how uncomfortable it makes such humanists to appear to be on the same side of a debate as the allegedly moral so-called majority; violence against women, particularly domestic violence, is being recognized as epidemic in this country. Absent a firmly demonstrable correlation between such drek and such violence I am unwilling to support censorship --- but I wonder how some of the publishers of the viler material would feel if they were placed in the situations of the subjects of their publications. A tactic which has worked well (at least when the snuff flick came to Boston) is to refuse to recognize such crud, and hence to deprive of it of the publicity it needs to metastasize; certainly alliance with the forces attempting to control Boston's combat zone would serve the women of this state about as well as the horse in Aesop was served when he joined with a man against a wolf. ------------------------------ DUFFEY@MIT-AI 01/26/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last message in this digest. It comments on the nature of the Jedi and the force. People who are not familiar with Star Wars series may not wish to read any further. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jan 1981 18:45:45-PST From: CSVAX.arnold at Berkeley Subject: On the Nature of Jedi The following message comes rather after the stimulus because of a network tie-up. But some of you may still remember the letter I refer to, so I'll resend it: Steve Platt has raised the subject of the Force as a weapon, and what type of thing/person/whatever defines a Jedi. Since, after seeing TESB some friends and I discussed this point for quite a while, I thought I'd inflict our conclusions and possibilities on you all: 1) The Jedi would seem to be somewhat like Samurai, in that their talents were a matter of training which gave them the authority to have weapons (Light Sabre/Swords) and the ability to use them. This is opposed to licensing (Can you imagine a fight between Vader and Luke being interrupted by an inspector from the Fraternal Order of Jedi in order to make sure that their papers were in order?) or the Western Gun-Fighter which sort of worked by natural selection. 2) On the issue of whether the Force is good or bad, we split into two camps. One maintained it's neutrality, claiming that it was like a natural law(s) which could be used by those who knew how, and the other camp (including myself) theorized that the wielder of the Force had to find the power to implement his/her desire (are there women Jedi?), and that power must be drawn from either Good or Evil. Thus, it is not the action, but where you draw from, that determines whether you wear a white or a black hat. Well, there it is. Go ahead and rip it apart. Ken ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 27-JAN "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #23 *** EOOH *** Date: 27 JAN 1981 0922-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #23 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Tuesday, 27 Jan 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 23 Today's Topics: SF Theater - Parody of Robotics Laws, SF Movies - Horrible SF Movies, SF Books - Ringworld & Libertarian SF, Star Wars - SW FANAC, Star Trek - The Computer ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 26 Jan 1981 1158-PST From: Richard Pattis Subject: Robot's Rules of Order I have had in my engrams for a long time the notion that the Firesign Theater or some other such inventive group once did a parody of Asimov's rules of robotics. Unfortunately, I can only remember one of the laws: "Never point a robot at the Sun." Can anyone out there supply the missing two laws and tell where they can be found? Rich ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jan 1981 1120-PST From: DHARE at SRI-KL (Dwight Hare) Subject: Bad SF movies: Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea The reference to the rather bad SF movie, "Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea", reminded me of how amazed I was when I first watched it. When the Van Allen belt catches on fire, the Seaview is under the polar ice cap. They realize something is wrong when the ice cap starts to melt and break up. The large ice chunks begin to sink through the ocean to hit the submarine. Think about that for a moment... When you are watching the movie it takes a few minutes before you realize that something is terribly wrong with that. ------------------------------ Date: 25 JAN 1981 2024-EST From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Ringworld and relativity It seems to me that both answers thus far miss one point: unless the Rosette (\not/ Rosetta) was going extremely close to the speed of light relative to the rest of our galaxy, there wouldn't be a significant enough mass increase and time dilation to worry about --- and if the worlds were going that fast it would be difficult to match speeds with them in the first place. (Since Niven's hyper- drive, unlike those of other authors, does not require accelerating to light- speed, there's no reason to expect that such brute force capacity exists.) Were the worlds going fast enough, carelessness in the choice of where to drop out of hyperspace on the way in could be dangerous (since the best conclusion from Niven's hints is that whatever trivial (relative/istical/ly) speed (but not necessarily direction) the ship has when it \enters/ hyperspace is maintained when it \leaves/), but for the five worlds (and one K-type star?) to have a dangerous mass in our frame of reference they'd have to be going .[some number of 9's] of lightspeed --- which would also make their afternoon on the puppeteer homeworld last a lot longer (relative to their homeworld clocks) than the characters expect --- but we never see Louis and Speaker compare clocks when they get back to Known Space! ------------------------------ Date: 26 January 1981 11:33-EST From: Gail Zacharias Subject: Libertarian literature. I think your comment about "everything in TVB worked too well" hits the proverbial nail right on the head. I find that sort of thing to be very true of much fiction written to demonstrate and defend a point of view, be it libertarian, communist, demo- cratic, environmental or anything else. When the resolution of all conflicts/problems in the book comes out so as to support what the author's been pushing all along, you tend to be reminded that the guy made up the whole situation in the first place, and it doesn't necessarily bear any relation to what might really happen. In other words you are dealing with a piece of propaganda, not something worth thinking about (even when you agree with the point of view being pushed). It's easy to put up straw men and knock them down. It takes a lot of skill, intelligence, discipline and respect for the reader to write a book advocating a point of view without descending into propaganda. My experience has been that libertarian 'literature' has not transcended the stage of tailor-made situations and knocking down of straw men as of yet, and hence is not really appropriate for convincing anyone except the already convinced. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jan 1981 1507-EST From: JoSH Here is some more flack for LS.MELTSNER about hir comments on TVB's political philosophy: 1) "Everything in TVB worked too well." Everything in a novel written about a pure political system of any kind would seem to work too well. No one's claiming that Smith isn't showing libertarianism in the best possible light. However, everything works too well in communist and authoritarian utopias as well; it's the nature of the beast. This doesn't make them uninteresting, since properly viewed they are schemas or core ideas -- they are for discussion, elaboration, and experimentation rather than immediate full- scale implementation. And it doesn't keep TVB from being a good book, well written and well worth reading. 1a) "restitution-based justice system" I think a restitution-based justice system would work at least as well as our current rehabilitation-based one. One of the problems with the current system (the social one and the embedded justice system) is that it encourages the development and existence of a "criminal class." Another problem is that it is predicated on principles of "fairness" instead of prin- ciples of working. We could, for example, charge each criminal caught the cost of his crime divided by the probability that he would be caught ($n/.5=$2n), and not only is the society's expected loss for a crime 0, but the criminal's expected gain is too. Surely better than insurance, where your expected loss (and the crook's expected gain) is somewhere near your premium? 2) "the concept that money will solve everything..." Who said money would solve everything? Money is simply a way of trading effort, value, and luck. However, I will argue that more money (and therefore, more effort, value, and luck) is better than less. 2a) "an almost extinct species" Why is the loss of a unique, irreplaceable species so much more tragic than the loss of a unique, irreplaceable snowflake? Why is either worth saving at the cost of a single instant of human misery? (Why are humans worth saving? Well.... duhhh...) 3) "Competition rapidly will be replaced by collusion." This is actually something of a flaw in the libertarian social mechanics; however, it is just as much a flaw in current social mechanics. Take the fact that regulatory agencies often (not always) protect the industries they are supposed to regulate; take government by high-pressure special-interest groups; take party politics, logrolling and smoke-filled rooms. Take them far, far away. Terrorism and gangsterism can only hold sway where the people let it do so (this leaves religious-based terrorism, where there are large numbers of people on each side). I don't particularly want shoulder my share of keeping the society safe; I would get bored practicing with a gun every day. But if it were a socially expected thing, like wearing clothes, I would probably do it. The use of distributing the burden is that the brunt of the disutility of slacking off is borne by the off-slacker. Example: Say I'm a mugger, in two situations: a) I am confronted with two potential victims, one of whom has cheated on his income tax, and the other hasn't. b) I am confronted by two potential victims, one of whom is carrying a gun and the other isn't. See the difference? (NB: Just saying that this is unfair to the little old lady as opposed to the strapping stevedore doesn't work -- put little old ladies into the example and it still works. If you think that other people have a duty to guard the old lady, it still works. 4) "the last great triumph of democracy" What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? We're talking about anarchy, not democracy! And again I beg to differ on the intrinsic quality of TVB, politics aside. I guess Capt. P. just doesn't like puns. --JoSH ------------------------------ Date: 26 January 1981 1112-EST From: Hank Walker at CMU-10A Subject: censorship Presumably it is perfectly legal to confiscate all films, etc as evidence for a trial when illegal actions were committed during the making of the film. This includes snuff films (I've never met anyone who's met anyone who's seen one), kiddy porn, etc. If you believe Linda Lovelace, this would also include "Deep Throat". ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jan 1981 13:59 PST From: Hamilton.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: censorship In my view, appropriate censorship does not go any further than stopping/ punishing people for yelling "fire" in a crowded theater, or for publishing leaflets that say "let's all meet at City Hall at 9 P.M. and burn it down". A lot of these anti-porn freaks would also like to ban the films "Birth of a Nation" because it is "racist", and "Triumph of Will" because it is "Nazi". Great art knows no ideological boundaries. Most critics would agree that "Lolita" is a great novel, and that Nabokov is no weirdo, but at the same time, if "Lolita" is not a form of "kiddie porn", then what is? A basic premise of a demo- cratic society is that its citizens are capable of recognizing trash or propaganda when they see it. If some of these citizens also happen to enjoy such stuff, so what? You can't force open a closed mind. I realize there is a delicate line between the public and the private. Thus issues such as whether one should be able to walk down the street nude, or whether Nazis should be able to march through Jewish communities chanting anti-Semitic slogans, become more complex. My approach would be some form of zoning: official recognition that nude beaches, red-light districts, Nazi parade grounds, etc., would be permitted either in officially designated areas, or where they had no visible impact on the surrounding community. Attempts to stop victimless "crimes" that involve something desired by at least a couple of percent of the population have never worked. Such attempts only push the activities underground, strengthening groups like the Mafia. --Bruce ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jan 1981 1633-PST From: URBAN at RAND-AI Subject: The story of a boy, a girl, and a universe (The Subject field is taken from the original prerelease trailer for Star Wars, if memory serves). Lauren, I think you're missing the point -- or are you also opposed to copyright laws? Lucas isn't trying to be Big Brother; he's just trying to maintain some measure of control of characters that, after all, he created. If I understand what's been reported in SF-Lovers, and it's correct, he's basically allowing the amateur/fan press to do pretty much what they like with his characters, subject to (only?) the guide- lines about sex. Since these characters are registered trademarks (look at the toys carefully), that's a pretty fair attitude. Marion Zimmer Bradley takes a similar attitude with respect to "Darkover", though even more liberal (in effect, she says, "those stories take place in YOUR Darkover, which isn't the same as mine, though possibly similar, and possibly just as interesting"). Of course, anything with a satiric purpose is legally and morally fair game. The disclaimer on the front of "Mad" about resemblances to persons living or dead, without a satiric purpose, probably saves them a heap of lawsuits. Of course, the Conan Doyle estate is STILL upset about Holmes pastiches, and "Oz" still is a common-law trademark belonging to Reilly and Lee (Random House), and don't try to produce a Barsoom computer game without contacting the Burroughs estate first or a Tolkien item without registering it with Elan Merchandising. Get the picture? Mike ------------------------------ DUFFEY@MIT-AI 01/27/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They continue the discussion of the Enterprise's computer in the episode "Wolf in the Fold". People who are not familiar with this episode may not wish to read further. ------------------------------ Date: 25 JAN 1981 1735-EST From: EDAL at MIT-AI (Eduardo Alvarez) Subject: Star Trek - Wolf in the Fold As far as the speculation that Jack could have moved himself to the mass storage devices, who is to say that the Enterprise's computer has any separate mass storage devices. By that time, perhaps memory technology will have advanced to the point where ALL memory can be of the instantly-available random-access type, with outside storage used only for transportation of data, such as the cassette-tape-like things that various characters carry about at times. ------------------------------ Date: 25 January 1981 18:04-EST From: Frank J. Wancho Subject: Mountable Devices I doubt that mountable devices would be practical in that environment. ------------------------------ PCR@MIT-MC 01/26/81 07:35:26 Re: Mass Storage in the Enterprise's computer You wouldn't expect Spock to go down and open the cover on a disk drive, to be sure. But how about some kind of crystalline memory units that can be written into from the main computer, and then when the Enterprise arrives at a starbase, are removed and replaced by crystals that have been totally updated by the starbase computers? The old ones could be read by the starbase, the new information analyzed, and then the crystals wiped and rewritten for the next star ship that came along. ...phil ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 28-JAN "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #24 *** EOOH *** Date: 28 JAN 1981 0731-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #24 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Wednesday, 28 Jan 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 24 Today's Topics: SF Theater - Parody of Robotics Laws, SF Books - Dragon's Egg & You're Nuttin & Wheels within Wheels & Libertarian SF & Ringworld, SF Events - Ellison Benefit (Cambridge), Star Wars - SW FANAC & Nature of the Force, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 Jan 1981 1342-PST From: The Moderator Subject: Where are Robots Rules of Order? Robots Rules of Order maybe found on "I Think We're All Bozos On This Bus." -- Kyle.ES at PARC-MAXC The sketch refered to is from Procter and Bergman's record "TV or Not TV". I believe this was their first non-firesign theater record, although most everyone else is there anyway. As I recall, the other two laws were "Never put magnets on a robots joints" and "Never put a robot in an old car and shove it off a cliff". The track was called "Tobor Radar Robot". "Remember, play fair, we are not programmed for defense". -- Achenbach@SUMEX-AIM I still don't have a definite source for "Robots Rules of Order," but rumor has it that it came from a Procter and Bergman album (it is definitely not on "We're all Bozos on this Bus"). -- Richard Pattis ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jan 1981 1342-PST From: Richard Pattis Subject: While browsing in bookstores last evening... 1) I found that Dragon's Egg is now out in paperback. Those of us that were too cheap to buy (and patient enough to wait for) this classic can now do so. My excuses to Dr. Forward for decreased royalties. 2) Frank Herbert co-authored a book called "You Are Nothing Without Me" (or some slight re-arrangment of words), which is about microprocessors. I won't comment here on what I thought of the book in general, but I can't resist one quote: "GOTO is a debuggers friend". For those of you who may think I took this out of context, I didn't; it says what he means. Rich ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jan 1981 at 1856-CST From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ WHEELS WITHIN WHEELS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ...is by F. Paul \WILSON/, not F. Paul Smith. I'm neither strongly pro nor strongly anti, as previous SFL'ers have been. I keep fewer than 1 in 10 of the SF books I read; most go back to the 2nd hand store. Then occasionally there's one I can't immediately decide about, and it goes onto a shelf of "to be re-read before deciding about". That's where my copy of WHEELS... is. Wilson's earlier HEALER was a "keeper", and it could be that WHEELS seemed a let-down because my expectations were too high from HEALER. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jan 1981 0925-PST From: Achenbach@SUMEX-AIM Subject: realistic political systems On the fray of believable political systems, Cecilia Holland's "Floating World's" contained the best example of an anarchy I've everseen. The only premise was that every one on earth was totally abhorant to any kind of violence. It also showed how this system collapses if you remove that idea. I remember this book being talked about before, so I don't want to flame overlong, but I thought this was one of the most complete novels I've ever read. Realistic characters (i.e. complex and hard to understand, not just cardboard) and realistic politics. I remember that a lot of people thought it too long (it might be), but I consider it worth the time. /Mike ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jan 1981 17:18 PST From: Reed.ES at PARC-MAXC Re: Libertarian SF I have not read the Smith novels under discussion, so I cannot evaluate their quality. However, I would like to very highly recommend a novel based on an Anarchic social system, somewhat Libertarian in nature. The novel is "The Dispossessed", by U.K. LeGuin. Ms. LeGuin is one of my favorite authors, and has done, I think, an extremely convincing job of describing a successful anarchy. Being relatively neutral on Libertarianism, I volunteer to read Smith's stuff and send as objective a review as possible. However, don't hold your breath since I have to locate the books first, and then find time to read them. -- Larry -- ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jan 1981 10:47:20-PST From: CSVAX.arnold at Berkeley Subject: restitution based justice A restitution based system such as proposed by JoSH would only work in monetary crimes. What, for example, is the cost of a rape? And is the rapist thinking about how much its going to cost him when he commits his crime? I would submit that, while your average bank robber might worry about money, any person raping or murdering or jaywalking is unlikely to. And I might further submit that most bank robbers would be unable to pay the state and/or victim(s) more than what (s)he stole. They usually aren't very rich, or they wouldn't be robbing banks; they'd be founding them. Also, in regards to systems "working to well", JoSH's contention that"utopias" work too well in books, I might point to LeGuin's "The Dispossed" as an example of a utopian society which works, but not suspiciously perfectly. The society has its flaws, and its self contradictions, and that makes it more believable. Ken ------------------------------ Date: 27 January 1981 1024-EST From: Hank Walker at CMU-10A Subject: athens Why not Athen's with ROBOTS? ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jan 1981 13:36 PST From: Kyle.ES at PARC-MAXC As for the Puppeteer's Rosette, it was being moved using the Outsider's Inertialess Drive and moving at just under light speed. In his other discriptions of Outsider Inertialess Drive (Sheaffer's trip to the anti-matter planet on the edge of the Milky Way) Niven described relativistic effects and it would follow that the Pupeteer's would experiance the same. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jan 1981 12:49:46-PST From: E.jeffc at Berkeley Subject: Ringworld's gravity wells If the space ship were "at rest" and the planets zooming away at near the speed of light, I wouldn't know what the effect on the gravity well would be. (Of course, at those velocities, it wouldn't be too long before the ship is out of the gravity well anyway.) However, the ship is at rest relative to the planets, and therefore the planets do not seem excessively massive relative to the ship, and therefore the gravity well is of a small size. ------------------------------ Date: 27 JAN 1981 1523-EST From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: censorship, again You seem to have substantially missed my point. I agree with virtually all of your ideas (with a note of sardonic amusement that (as near as I can recall) the origin of "Fire in a crowded theater" was in favor of a wartime censorship which now is held to have been inappropriate). My point is that pornography \may/ be considered incitement to riot, and (if such consideration is reasonable) \may/ be subject to restraint, possibly of the form you describe. LOLITA is a poor example; it's not a particularly erotic book. Humbert is an obsessive pain in the neck and ultimately a murderer; the obsession, rather than the glossed-over sex, is the point of the book. I suggest you investigate some of the currently available kiddie-porn (if you haven't already and if your stomach is in good shape) and line it up against whatever statistics you can get on sexual abuse of children --- then multiply the statistics, because this crime is even more underreported than spouse abuse. It's amusing to tie this back into the discussion about THE VENUSBELT (which I read two days ago and consider to be pretty poor material even after allowances are made for Smith's general prejudices and ignorance of history); note that when someone started proclaiming himself manager of the belt they didn't bother removing the immediate nuisance by wiping out the trans- mitters which were interfering with communications, they simply destroyed the whole asteroid. (I also note that Smith and I seem to share at least one opinion (outside of our contempt for "victimless crime" laws): that Cato was a blackguard.) ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jan 1981 12:47 PST From: Hamilton.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: censorship, again I don't think I missed your point at all, Chip. I could NEVER consider run-of-the-mill pornography, of which I've seen a fair sample, to be "incitement to riot". Most porno does not involve violence. Most violent art is not considered "porno". "Incitement to riot" would have to involve suggestions that specific actions be taken at a specific time and place. Thus, passing around pamphlets saying "Kill all {blacks, Jews, honkies, ...}" in an unruly mob *would* be incitement to riot, since the implicit time and place would be "here and now". However, printing the same message in the personals section of a newspaper would *not* be incitement to riot (unless the appearance of such message were part of a previously-agreed-upon signal in some sort of elaborate conspiracy). The controversy two years ago over the urban fantasy film "The Warriors" comes to mind. Many exhibitors declined to show it, because they had reason to believe that showing it to a house packed full ofviolence-prone gang members *was* "incitement to riot". --Bruce ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jan 1981 13:08:25 EST From: Roger Duffey Subject: A point of information Harlan Ellison will be reading from his works at the Cambridge Sheraton Commander Hotel from 7-11 PM on 30 January. This is a benefit performance for Avenue Victor Hugo's, an SF bookstore facing bankruptcy. For more information, call the bookstore at 266-7746. ------------------------------ DUFFEY@MIT-AI 01/28/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They continue the discussion of the nature of the force. People who are not familiar with Star Wars series may not wish to read any further. ------------------------------ Date: 27 JAN 1981 1506-EST From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: nature of the force I'm intrigued by the suggestion that the force requires a would-be wielder to "find the power to implement his/her desire ... and that power must be drawn from either Good or Evil." The immediate consequence of this (it seems to me) is that one must use emotion to wield the force, rather as emotion is necessary to drive the telepathy rig in one of Asimov's Wendell Urth stories or to survive against unusual stress as in Sturgeon's story about the destruction of Xantippe or Cordwainer Smith's about the first flight through space (I'm really doing well today---3 stories and I can't remember the title of even one of them!). But this is countered by the statement that releasing emotion (at least the emotions of anger or fear) 'pollutes' one's use of the Force. As Obi-Wan describes it, the power of the Force stems not from the recognition of great good or evil but from the grasp of the unity of all living things, which strikes me as a deliber- ately neutral concept. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jan 1981 13:40:23-PST From: CSVAX.arnold at Berkeley Subject: emotion and the force I would argue that it required empathy, not emotion, to plug into a moral (not emotional) well of energy. This presupposes, of course, an absolute morality of good and evil (and maybe neutral), but that's not too much to ask out of an updated western movie with good guys in white hats and bad guys in black robes. It would be this empathy which the training develops, and it would be general purpose, allowing tapping of either side of the fence. Maybe the force of evil is more powerful for short term solutions, which is what makes it tempting, but lousy on long term, and the force of good is better for wiser things, which makes it more difficult to wield. Ken ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 30-JAN "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS PM Digest V3 #25 (Special CON Issue) *** EOOH *** Date: 30 JAN 1981 0321-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS PM Digest V3 #25 (Special CON Issue) To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS PM Digest Thursday, 29 Jan 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 25 Today's Topics: What Happens at a Con - Point/Counterpoint on LASTcon & Boskone SFL Party? & FoolCon IV Details, SF Events Calendar ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 25 JAN 1981 2100-EST From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: LASTCON (the first); capsule review: a waste of time. The only pro SF writer there was the GoH and there was virtually nobody I knew from out of the area. Another Bostonian described it as a typical crowd of neos, but usually neos are 25 rather than 95% of the con attendance. It will possibly do better next year if the concom can work out its power struggles. Sorry to be so negative, but that's the way it was. ------------------------------ DP@MIT-ML 01/28/81 00:25:49 Re: Lastcon report Lastcon was a small (~350) convention held in Albany. The guests of honor were Hal Clement (Harry Stubbs) pro, and The Wombat (Jan Finder) fan. The committee was composed of much the same people that ran Novacon 9. My first impressions of the con are of a *TRUE WIN* I actually enjoyed myself, and really relaxed. This may be in direct rela- tionship to the small size. The hotel was fairly co-operative. The committee had arranged for fen in all the poolside rooms, and were allowed to have a skinny dip on friday night. The only hotel hassle, they asked some filkers to pick a spot closer to the con suite, instead of the mundane floor we were using. We moved into the lobby (~2 am) and received no complaints. The art show was quite small, and almost entirely amateur material. It had a fair amount of material left unsold. The huckster room was of reasonable size, and most of us did reasonably well. (I have taken to huckstering to allow me to attend more con's.) Almost half complained of not being able to get tables at Boskone. I excersised great restraint. The only things I bought were two buttons. One was another "filkers do it till dawn", the other said CHARTER IMMORAL MINORITY MEMBER Much of the con's attendance was local students. (The hotel was a stones throw from SUNY, and <15 mins from RPI.) Several people were disappointed that more of the normal east cost traveling crowd did not show up. On Friday, in addition to the pool party, the local SCA barony? held a revel. On Saturday, there was a costume call. The winner was a costume of Luke riding a Taun-Taun. It was very well done, and almost everyone told the person that she should take the costume to Worldcon. The winners were given small glass statues of the alien mascot. They held a contest to name the alien. The winning entry was Phideaux. At the end of the costume party, Pat Kennedy (who introduced the costumes) suggested that all people in costume should go down to the disco and truly freak out the mundanes. ("Nowhere are there mundanes more mundane than in Albany"). The contents of the disco were somewhat taken by the costumed horde, who managed to displace them all from the dance floor. Unfortunately the bouncer would not let the girl in the winning costume past the entrance, as he felt the costume was took bulky. On Saturday there were some interesting panels. One of the most amusing was Jan (The Wombat) Finders speech. It was titled "Keeping One's Pecker Up" and described some of the major differences in British and Austrailian idiom. (The title of the talk in US english would be something like keeping the spirit up. Typical context referring to a sports team's performance.) On Saturday we found a winning chineese place, on Sunday a loosing breakfast place. The weekend was a win. I hope they do it next year. enjoy, Jeff P.S. Any plans for a SFL party at Boskone? ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jan 1981 1540-EST From: Alyson L Abramowitz via Subject: SFL party? Given that SFL originates from the Boston area, I wondered if anyone had thought of having an SFL party at the upcoming Boskone. I'd volunteer to host one, but given the outrageous hotel room prices I'll be commuting the half hour home each morning. Any volunteers? Alyson L. Abramowitz ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jan 1981 at 2358-CST From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ...about FOOLCON ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ There were some discrepancies in the data for FOOLCON IV in the recent listing in SF-L. The address is: Johnson County Community College College Boulevard at Quivira Road Overland Park, Kansas 66201 GoH's are Katherine Kurtz and Michael Whelan (\and/ if he's up to it, Robert Heinlein, who expects to be visiting in the area at the time [April 3-5]) Special Guest Artists are: Herb Arnold, Jann Frank, Robert Haas, Tim Kirk, Daryl Murdock, and Real Musgrave. Other Special Guests are: Lynn Abbey, Patricia Cadigan, C.J. Cherryh, Arnold Fenner, Barbara Housh, David Houston, John Kessel, Pat & Lee Killough, Carl Sherrel, John Tibbetts, and, tentatively, Richard Lupoff. Auctioneer will be Allan Wilde; and Toastmaster, Robert Asprin. The Central Mid-Southwest's prime filker, Margaret Middleton's going, and if a minor miracle can be effected, so will yours truly, HJJH. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jan 1981 15:41 PST From: Richard R. Brodie Subject: Calendar of Science Fiction Events Here is the SF-Lovers event calendar. If you have information about any events you would like to see added to the calendar, or are associated in some way with one of the listed events and would like to contribute, please send mail to Brodie at PARC-MAXC. ------------------------------ Calendar of Science Fiction Events As of January 26, 1980 ------------------------------ January 30-31, 1981 (Ohio) OSU CON. Ohio State University. Julie Washington, OSU Union Program Office, 1739 N. High Street, Columbus, OH 43210. February 6-8, 1981 (Florida) OMNICON II. Guest: Kerry O'Quinn (Starlog). PO Box 970308, Miami, FL 33197. February 12-16, 1981 (Southern California) AQUACON. Disneyland Hotel, Anaheim, CA ($56 single). PO Box 815, Brea, CA 92621. February 13-15, 1981 (Massachusetts) BOSKONE XVIII. Pro GoH: Tanith Lee; Official Artist: Don Maitz. Sheraton-Boston ($57/single, $69/double). Cost: $15 to N.E.S.F.A., Box G, MIT Branch P.O., Cambridge MA 02139. Films, program, seminars, art show, hucksters room, filksinging, games, costume party, Glamor and Sparkle. Info on dealers' tables and art show is available; dealers' room will probably be larger than in past years as we now have more of the hotel. Registration limit of 3000. (We aren't happy about the room rates either, but there isn't a usable hotel with significantly better rates.) SFL liaison: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock). February 14, 1981 (Florida) STONE HILL LAUNCH II. Ann Morris, 1522 Lovers Lane, Riverview, FL 33569. February 14-16, 1981 (Northern California) DUN DRA CON VI. Gaming. 386 Alcatraz Avenue, Oakland, CA 94618. February 22, 1981 (Southern California) THE SECOND (SEMI) ANNUAL TRANSYLVANIAN CONVENTION. A six hour Rocky Horror party (12 noon - 6 PM). Los Angeles Hilton. Feature Films, Concert Shorts, Exhibit & Slide Show, Collectibles, Live Entertainment, Costume Contest, Door Prizes, probably a showing of Night of the Loving Dead [Yes, lOving]. The Worst Films Show (7:00 PM - 10:00 PM, extra admission). Two of the all-time worst films, plus trailers, shorts, etc. (213) 656-9090. February 27-March 1, 1981 (North Carolina) STELLAR CON VI. University of North Carolina. David Allen, Box 4-EUC, University of N.C., Greensboro, NC 27412. March 6-8, 1981 (Texas) OWLCON II. Rice Program Council, PO Box 1892, Houston, TX 77001. March 6-8, 1981 (Wisconsin) WISCON 5. SF3, Box 1624, Madison, WI 53701. March 13-15, 1981 (Kentucky) UPPERSOUTHCLAVE XI. Bowling Green, KY. Box U 112, College Heights Station, Bowling Green, KY 42101. March 20-22, 1981 (New Jersey) LUNACON '81. Guests: James White, Jack Gaughan. Sheraton-Heights, Hasbrouck Heights, NJ (marginally attainable by public from New York City). Cost: $11 till 2/28/81, $14 door. Box 204, Brooklyn, NY 11230. March 27-29, 1981 (England) FANDERSON 81. Gerry Anderson. Leeds, England. Pam Barnes, 88A Thornton Avenue, London W4 1QQ Engalnd. April 3-5, 1981 (Kansas) FOOL-CON IV. Confirmed guests: C. J. Cerryh, Lynn Abbey, Robert Asprin. Johnson City Community College, Kansas City, MO. Johnson County Community College, Overland Park, KS 66210. April 11-12, 1981 (Minnesota) MICROCON 1981. SF/Comics/Games. Mpls. Comic Conventions, Box 3221 Traffic Station, Minneapolis, MN 55403. April 25-26, 1981 (Nebraska) ELECTRA-CON I. P.O. Box 1052, Kearney, NE 68847. May 8-10, 1981 (Tennessee) KUBLA'S NINTH KHANPHONY. Ken Moore, 647 Devon Drive, Nashville, TN 37204 May 9-10 (Georgia) EMORY-TREK II. Atlanta Star Trek Society, c/o Kenneth Cribbs, 2156 Golden Dawn Drive SW, Atlanta, GA 30311 June 5-7, 1981 (Arizona) PHRINGECON 2. PO Box 128, Tempe, AZ 85281. June 12-14, 1981 (Wisconsin) X-CON 5. M. P. Inda, 1743 N. Cambridge, Apt. 301, Milwaukee, WI 53202. June 13-14, 1981 (Kansas) COSMOCON II. c/o Charley S. McCue, 34 Halsey, Hutchinson, KS 67501. July 2-5, 1981 (Northern California) WESTERCON 34. GoH: C. J. Cherryh; Fan GoH: Grant Cornfield. Red Lion Motor Inn, Sacramento, CA; (916) 929-8855; $32 single and double, $8 addl person. Party wing. Cost: $20 till 6/14/81, $25 door. P.O. Box 161719, Sacramento, CA 95816. July 10-12, 1981 (Missouri) ARCHON V. GoH: Tanith Lee; Fan GoH: Joan Hanke Wood; Toastmaster: Charlie Grant; also Joan Hanke Wood, Wilson 'Bob' Tucker, Glen Cook, Ron Chilson, George R. R. Martin, Joe and Gay Haldeman, and Michael Berlyn. Chase-Park Plaza Hotel, St. Louis, MO ($44 single, $52 2/3/4). Soliciting program ideas and/or people who could help carry them out. Also looking for more artist names to add to the mailing list for soliciting contributions to the art show. This was successful at ARCHON IV (over 60% of artists sold works), and they are trying to expand. There will be more art show space and display panels this year. Also in the process of reviewing art show rules and would welcome suggestions. SFL liaison: WMartin at Office-3 (Amy Newell). September 3-7, 1981 (Colorado) DEVENTION TWO. 1981 World Science Fiction Convention. Pro GoH: C.L. Moore, Clifford Simak; Fan GoH: Rusty Hevelin. Cost: $35 till Spring 1981. P.O. Box 11545, Denver, CO. 80211. (303) 433-9774. September 2-6, 1982 (Illinois) CHICON IV. 1982 World Science Fiction Convention. Pro GoH: A. Bertram Chandler; Fan GoH: Lee Hoffman; Artist GoH: Kelly Freas. Hyatt Regency, Chicago, IL. Cost: $30 till 6/30/81; $15 supporting; $7.50 conversion. PO Box A3120, Chicago, IL 60690. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 30-JAN "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #26 *** EOOH *** Date: 30 JAN 1981 0835-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #26 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Friday, 30 Jan 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 26 Today's Topics: SF Radio - Boogie-Woogie to the Stars, SF Books - Canopus Series & Floating Worlds & Libertarian SF and Dispossessed & Dragon's Egg & Sagan's Close Encounter, SF Theater - Parody of Robotics Laws, SF Movies - Altered States, Future - When to Sleep, Star Wars - SW FANAC, Spoiler - Varley's Titan ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RUSSEL@MIT-AI 01/29/81 00:28:01 Has anyone else out there heard about a new radio series called "Boogie-Woogie to the Stars"? I happened to catch a segment of it last night on my local PBS station (at 2 in the ayem - hacker's hours) and found it, well, is 'amusing, engaging and intriguing' too much? It appears to be a series made up of hour long segments, each of which is composed of time slices from substories interwoven in a clever pattern. Technically, its brilliant - the special effects are really dazzling and what's more, some of the substories have a "disco greek chorus" singing comments on what is going on in the substory. One substory is about a hyper-space age female detective (I believe her name is "Ruby Starr") who is currently captured by aliens that have spun a mind-loop (while the chorus sings "a loop, a loop, a loop, ..."). You get the idea. The SF is a little campy for my tastes, but the imagination it took to put it all together with clever segues and all the rest more than makes up for it. Anyone know more about who thunk it up? Who and what performs? -- Dan ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jan 1981 1035-PST From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE Subject: More Lessing Doris Lessing has another book in her "Canopus" series out. It's gotten excellent reviews from mainstream critics, but from the blurbs it sounds like trashy, moralistic sf from someone who has never read anything in the field. Has anyone read any of these? What's really going on with them? ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jan 1981 0941-PST From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE Subject: re: "Floating Worlds" I must confess that I couldn't finish the book, so I'll limit my comments to saying that there was very little in it that couldn't be transplanted without strain to the present day. The heroine lives in an anarchist co-op much like one that I was in in Boston, the Martians sound and live like corporate executives, and the Uranians are tall, dark-skinned barbarians who used to be slaves of the inner worlds. It sounded to me like another case of James Blish's smeerp principle; call a rabbit a smeerp and it's science fiction. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jan 1981 1319-EST From: JoSH Subject: "The Dispossessed" as a Utopian novel I always considered The Dispossessed a DYStopian vision. Certainly I wouldn't want to live there. It certainly is not a libertarian political system; it is completely communistic. In deciding whether a book is "good", I apply two criteria: a) is it fun to read, and b) does it make one think. Synthetic criteria such as plot, characterization, etc., are fine for English scholars but fall far short of the mark for science fiction -- I at least think that characterization of the !universe! is more important than that of the people. In a "literature of ideas" no preset breakdowns can work; thus my general criteria. Note that the more the conflict (which makes the story go) centers on characters (developing them) the less it centers on the ideas (developing THEM). ------------------------------ Date: 28 JAN 1981 0704-PST From: FORWARD at USC-ECL Subject: Paperback vs. Hardcover Don't feel bad about waiting to buy the paperback, the only book I have ever bought in hardcover is Webster's Collegiate Dictionary. Besides, the hardcover edition of DRAGON'S EGG is out of print now. So read and enjoy. Bob Forward ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jan 1981 at 2352-CST From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 ^^^^^^^^^^ EAT YOUR HEARTS OUT, PROFESSIONAL S/F WRITERS! ^^^^^^^^^^ Carl Sagan has signed a contract for $2,000,000 for his first novel, about initial contact with Aliens From Out There, predictably. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jan 1981 11:38:55-PST From: CSVAX.dmu at Berkeley Subject: Robot's Rules of Order I am sure that there were at least two references in Bozos. One was the come-on for a sideshow? (I can't spell the name) where you could go three rounds with a toaster, etc. (``where Robot's Rules of Order don't apply''). The other was in one of Clem's conversations with Worker: ``You have violated Robot's Rules of Order. . .''. Sorry these are so vague, but I can \hear/ the lines in my mind. Another Famous Dope Humor of the 70's fan, David Ungar ------------------------------ LEOR@MIT-MC 01/29/81 01:00:18 Re: "Altered States" nano-review: Kinda fun, good FX, but not quite as "heavy" as advertised We saw it at its exclusive engagement in Boston, where 10 or so extra speakers where set up all around for beautiful subsonics (a la Earthquake.) The film contains many very entertaining sequences (such as protagonist-as-apeman running around coping with the city) and the plot actually held my interest for about 2/3 of the way through...then it went down the toilet quickly, as if the writer ran out of steam and struggled through the climax with sole intent to finish the damn script. Oh well; there's enough nice FX near the end to help take the viewers mind off lines such as (following the protagonist's regression to the primordial nothing and return): "...and the secret of life is....THAT THERE IS NO SECRET OF LIFE!!!!!..." or something to that tune. Ah well. Debbie, who's into movies, appreciated the lousy direction since it boosted confidence in her ability to do better herself, yet still managed to come out reasonably entertained by it all. One thing: the tripping-out sequences corresponded QUITE well to my own memories of some of the stronger hallucinogens I've ingested. Next time I see this movie (hopefully with the same sound system) I plan to get pretty altered myself beforehand. -leor ------------------------------ Date: 12 January 1981 2313-EST (Monday) From: R.Kamesh Subject: Body temperature sensing There was an article in a recent issue of Science that said that the period of time spent sleeping depended on the phase of the body-temperature cycle at the time a person falls asleep. Apparently, the average sleep duration when a person began sleeping at the lowest body temperature was about 7.8 hours and if he began sleeping at the highest body temperature was 14.4 hours. Waking generally occurred during the rising temperature phase at the high temperature end. (This suggests a basic temperature cycle of 28-29 hours) It made me wonder how one can determine (without necessarily maintaining a long-term record) what the current phase is. The problem I would like to address is: At some point in time, I would like to decide if it is `right' to go to sleep. If I want to sleep for a short period, I should do so if my body temperature has just reached its lowest point. If I want to sleep for a long time I should do so if my body temperature has just reached its highest point. I would like to optimize sleep time and spend little time in bed waiting for sleep to `come'. Since it is pretty unusual to be keeping track of body temperature most of the time, I will generally not know where in the cycle I am currently. The question is whether I can determine this from purely sensory data (hot or cold feelings over the past few hours). As I pondered on this problem, it struck me suddenly: This was a problem for SF-LOVERS!! I append some thoughts I had on the subject. Assuming that I am in a more-or-less constant temperature room, if I start feeling colder does it mean that my body temperature is falling, or does it mean that it is rising? If my temperature falls, it could be that the rate of heat loss decreases and so I should be feeling warmer. That is, if the feeling of warmth or cold is related to the rate of heat loss. This is clearly true when the ambient temperature is very low or very high. But what about the intermediate range (70-90 degrees Fahrenheit), at which our bodies are probably reasonably successful at getting rid of generated heat. Since body temperature does not vary markedly (a range of a few degrees at most), the rates of heat loss cannot be so markedly different (say 10% at most. This assumes ambient temperature at 68 degrees, average body-temp at 98 degrees and a range of about 3-4 degrees). So feelings of hot and cold may be largely unrelated to rates of heat loss. Feelings of hot and cold are also affected by conditions that change the rate at which the body loses heat. For example, just after a meal, the blood supply to the body surface decreases, thus decreasing the overall rate of heat loss. A simple theory would predict that you should feel warmer - but in fact you feel colder. This is because our bodies have sub-cutaneous temperature sensors, rather than heat loss sensors, and these sense the drop in surface temperature caused by the loss of blood supply. This suggests that when we feel cold, it is because our body temperature is falling rather than rising. One suggestion I received was that if we are largely sensitive to heat loss, then it would be to differences in rates of heat loss. This suggests that if you live in a constant temperature environment, you can become very sensitive to small changes in the temperature difference between the body and the ambient temperature. This would then mimic temperature sensitivity within certain limits of heat-loss rates. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jan 1981 1424-PST (Thursday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: censorship "Colored people don't like 'Little Black Sambo'. Burn it. White people don't feel too good about 'Uncle Tom's Cabin'. Burn it. Someone's written a book about tobacco and cancer of the lungs? The cigarette people are weeping? Burn the book. Serenity, Montag. Peace, Montag." -- Captain Beatty, "Fahrenheit 451" ----- My point is simple. You cannot open the floodgates of censorship without taking the risk of "losing" alot more than you bargained for. ----- As for Lucas. Well, golly gee, sure I believe in copyrights. What I object to (maybe more from my gut than my mind) is Lucas singling out ONE TYPE of thing and saying -- "THAT! THAT'S THE ONE THING YOU DON'T DO!" Ah well, tells us a bit about how Lucas' mind works, eh? --Lauren-- ------------------------------ DUFFEY@MIT-AI 01/30/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last message in this digest. It discusses a technical problem at the end of Varley's Titan. People who are not familiar with these novels may not wish to read further. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jan 1981 12:43:58-PST From: E.jeffc at Berkeley Subject: Varley's TITAN As the parachutes descend to the lower altitudes, they will be accelerated by the wind that they will feel. The atmosphere is obviously travelling at the same speed as the surface, and that atmosphere will push our heroes until they too are travelling at the proper speed. So, when they hit the ground, their lateral velocity will not be too high. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 31-JAN "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #27 *** EOOH *** Date: 31 JAN 1981 0912-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #27 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Saturday, 31 Jan 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 27 Today's Topics: What Happens at a Con? - Countercounterpoint on LASTcon, SF Radio - Boogie-Woogie to the Stars, SF Books - Canopus Series & Utopian/Dystopian SF & Sagan's Close Encounter & Ringworld, Future - When to Sleep, Star Wars - SW FANAC, Star Trek - The Computer ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 30 JAN 1981 1025-EST From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Lastcon To say that the Lastconcom "was composed of much the same people that ran Novacon 9" is factually untrue, as well as an insult to the latter. Lastcon's biggest failings came from the fact that too many of its people didn't seem to have attended (or if having attended, learned from) any other SF cons. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jan 1981 1321-PST From: Dave Dyer Subject: Boogie Woogie to the Stars Is produced by ZBS Media, the same good people who brought you "The Fourth Tower of Inverness", "Moon Over Morocco", "The Further Adventures of Jack Flanders", and "Stars n' Stuff". All of the same ilk. Technically sophisticated, somewhat camp, dripping in hippy trippy philosophy. A win. ZBS programs are frequently played in here in LooseAngles on KPFK-FM. Subscribers can find times in the folio, non- subscribers (parasites) can suffer. ZBS programs are all available on cassette, though I don't know the details. If anyone is interested I will look up their address. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jan 1981 1156-EST From: KERN at RUTGERS Subject: RE: MORE LESSING I caught the reviews of Doris Lessing's "Canopus" series in, among others, the NYTBR and Wash Post Book World (how mainstream can you get?), and they seemed at worst hostile, at best patronizing ('Let her experiment. She'll get back to real fiction again.') The reviews of THE SIRIAN EXPERIMENTS have run true to the form of the earlier ones. (The reviews I've seen in the SF press (F&SF, SF-L) have been uniformly hostile.) I read and enjoyed the first two books in the series, and have an order in on the third from my local library (and I'm not first on the list!) These books are not really mainstream or SF - (mundane or sci-fi?). I'll stick with Lessing's own term for them, 'visionary fiction'. I enjoy the size and depth of her vision, and her skill as a multi-leveled storyteller. She is among the best in playing with archetypes. If you read CANOPUS as SF, though, you'll be struck by a number of embarrassing broken SF conventions. -kbk ------------------------------ Date: 30 January 1981 09:27 est From: Benson I. Margulies at MIT-Multics In re JoSH's comments of the Dispossessed and lit'rature: Literary criticism is exactly about "is it fun to read" and "does it make you think." More to the point, "Does it make for feel. Does it incite any more mental activity that a soap commercial, and if so, why". Much SF is still being written with such flagrant disregard for what it takes to make something "fun to read" that it is veritable hopeless for anything but plot-skimming. Which is this? Those with plots without the faintest shred of verisimilitude, characters made of soggy cardboard, and the rest. Only these days weird sex tends to take the place of the gadgets of days gone by. Its cool to grind an axe in a story, as long as you don't cut off its head in the process. The Dispossessed is a fine novel, by both JoSH and my criteria, I'd hazard. It asks serious questions about society, holds one's attention, and all that good stuff. Books whose aim is to demonstrate the overwhelming superiority of libertarianism, or anything else, tend to be dull at best. They always remind me of EE Smith's infantile anti-drug universe, complete with the toilet training imagery. ------------------------------ Date: 31 January 1981 05:06 est From: SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-Multics (SAS at SAI-Prime) Subject: Utopia I haven't read TVB although it appears to fall into the same genre as Looking Backward or Walden II or The Republic or ... It has the same problem as almost all utopian fiction and a good deal of other fiction (try Norman Mailer or James Michener), it either lies or has the look of a lie. It is kind of like those architectural drawings of buildings in vitro (so to speak) or Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea with its sinking icebergs and as such is vaguely unsatisfying (albeit "pretty"). As far as restitution based justice goes it is a nice idea and has been tried in the past and is still used in such matters as anti-trust law. The division of law into Civil and Criminal indicates that treating such a crime as murder as a strictly civil matter of equity had certain problems which remedied by also making it a trespass against the rights of all (e.g. The People of the State of XYZZY) ------------------------------ MJL@MIT-MC 01/30/81 13:30:33 While on the subject of DYStopia, has anyone read Yevgeny Zamyatin's "WE"? /Mijjill ------------------------------ DGSHAP@MIT-AI 01/30/81 15:50:06 Re: Carl Sagan's Book If it is about his pearly-white teeth, I'm not buying it. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jan 1981 12:17:50-PST From: E.jeffc at Berkeley Subject: Ringworld When the spaceship entered the Ringworld system, it was travelling at a relativistic velocity, thus requiring a period of time to decelerate. The question is this: if the ship entered hyperdrive at relativistic speeds, then does the ship experience any relativistic effects while in hyperspace? As velocity, and therefore the effects, depends upon the frame of reference, we must first ask what frame of reference does the ship have while in hyperspace? If the answer is none, or the question is meaningless, then how does the ship revert back to its former frame of reference? Of course, there is an easy answer to all of this - there ain't no such thing as hyperspace and therefore this entire discussion is meaningless and the subject should be dropped. ------------------------------ Date: 30 January 1981 22:49 cst From: VaughanW.REFLECS at HI-Multics (Bill Vaughan) Subject: Ringworld, Rosettes & Relativity Reflections on whether or not Niven's FTL drive should work in the "gravity well" of the puppeteer planets: Why doesn't it work in the gravity well of an ordinary planet moving at non-relativistic speeds? Not the Einstein Effect, Heisenberg Effect, or even the Edison Effect... it's the LITERARY EFFECT! (What author would want to have to figure out the consequences of FTL inertialess motorcycles on a modern society? And besides, it's a lovely excuse for not having discovered the basic physics of FTL drives.) Therefore, to answer the question, we must examine the inter- action between the Literary Effect and General Relativity. By inspection, we see that General Relativity either (a) is orthogonal to literature or (b) is soporific, depending whether you are reading Misner et al. or Al et al (Einstein, that is). A different approach would be to discover the hidden vari- ables underlying the FTL drive; from these, a model could be constructed which would lead to a prediction. (Testing the prediction is another story.) Alas, I have been utterly unable to telepathize Niven to determine those variables, which either vindicates Heisenberg, or makes me wonder whether Niven plays dice with his universe. (Raffiniert ist der Herr Niven, aber boeshaft ist Er nicht, to paraphrase the aforementioned Al). Bill ------------------------------ DGSHAP@MIT-AI 01/30/81 16:17:02 Talking about sleep cycles, I have also heard that people wake up refreshed if they are coming out of one of the shallow phases of sleep, and wake up disturbed if pulled out of REM. Since these states can be identified by alpha wave patterns, anyone for designing an alarm clock that is guaranteed to wake you up when you're going to feel good? These sleep states also occur in regular cycles (c. every 45 min), so at worst, the alarm clock might decide to wake you up 45 minutes before you told it to. (These damned modern appliances...) Dan ------------------------------ Date: 28 January 1981 1052-EST From: Hank Walker at CMU-10A Subject: The Warriors I remember when they showed "The Warriors", a movie about Chicano gangs, in East LA (they only speak Spanish there). As I recall, there was LOTS of gang violence that could be connected to the film. Many theaters refused to show it for fear of violence, and those that did had big mean guards and bouncers. I don't necessarily think that the film should be censored. After all, it was the area that it was shown in that caused the problem. If you censor this movie, why not Clint Eastwood, Charles Bronson, etc. If porno causes crime (wife-beating, child-molesting, etc), it's because it triggered a reaction in a sicko. No good data exists. If the goal is to stop the crimes, why not have some gross invasion of privacy, such as probing every- one's mind, looking for those with sick tendencies and censor them. I agree with the statement that the public knows filth when it sees it, no matter whether they live in NY or Smalltown. Of course, their definition of filth may differ. Whose will prevail in the locality? By the way, how did we ever start talking about porno in SFL? Surely this discussion about censorship, etc belongs in Poli-Sci. [ FtRI: Poli-Sci is a broad spectrum, digest list which discusses political science and current events topics. Information and addition request should be addressed to Poli-Sci-Request@MIT-AI. -- RDD ] ------------------------------ Date: 29 JAN 1981 1422-EST From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: censorship, again I wonder how much you've seen of the really revolting pictorial pornography of which more and more has become available in the past decade or so. If you haven't, try taking a look (inside the stores, the storefront stuff is tamer for legal reasons) in some large city red-light district; you may be in for a shock. The message they carry is considerably more vigorously put than an ad in the Personals, and certainly more pernicious. I would guess that many of the theater owners who declined to show THE WARRIORS were more worried about what might happen to their own buildings than about a riot per se. I repeat: I haven't seen firm enough evidence to convince me of this argument, \yet/ (read both screensful of my first msg) --- but in view of the structure of this society I do not find such arguments totally groundless. I would offer for general consideration the recent case of a French scholar who was suspended from his post when he claimed to have proved that the common knowledge that 6 million Jews were slaughtered under Hitler is false. He was suspended (not fired, mind you) and found a number of garden-variety nuts sub- scribing to his cause, including Noam Chomsky. I ask whether this is censorship (though acknowledging that further examination of his claims would be required) in view of the unscholarly denial of reality such a claim must involve; would a teacher who espoused the views of Von Daniken or Velikovsky be treated any more gener- ously or with any less cause? The cases are not parallel, but both involve a balance between reality and what one might desire of it. I would also point out the likelihood that most pictorial pornography is made without regard to any labor laws or even basic considerations of safety and humanity of the subjects. Consider the scene in DEEP THROAT in which Linda is subjected to a glass dildo --- can you imagine anyone in anything less than total desperation submitting to this? ------------------------------ DUFFEY@MIT-AI 01/31/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last message in this digest. It continues the discussion of the Enterprise's computer in the episode "Wolf in the Fold". People who are not familiar with this episode may not wish to read further. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jan 1981 21:25:26-PST From: ihnss!karn at Berkeley Regarding the behavior of the computer in "Wolf in the Fold", I believe Spock said something like "Computer..This is a Class A1 directive..." or something to the effect before directing it to "compute to the last digit the value of pi". All bets on fair scheduling are off when a superuser runs a computebound job at the highest scheduling priority! (Obviously, Spock knows the super user password...) --Phil ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 1-FEB "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #28 *** EOOH *** Date: 1 FEB 1981 1059-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #28 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Sunday, 1 Feb 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 28 Today's Topics: SF Radio - Star Wars, SF Books - Downbelow Station, SF Movies - Resurrection & Dark Star, Future - CA Paranoia, Star Trek - The Computer ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Jan 81 1045-CST From: ZELLICH at OFFICE Subject: SW Radio show ? Is/was there a radio-show spinoff of Star Wars and/or The Empire Strikes Back? For shame, M. stanzel - There are periods in W.A.S.T.E.! You'd have people dropping their letters into real dead-letter baskets. Rich Zellich ------------------------------ Date: 1 February 1981 08:42-EST From: Robert W. Kerns Subject: Star Wars radio show According to an article in the most recent Playboy, (as near as I recall, I don't have it here) USC's radio station is producing a Star Wars radio show for NPR. Apparently Lucas is a USC grad, and sold them the radio rights for $1. Mark Hamill will play his part, as will the British actor who plays C3P0. Alex Guiness, Carie Fisher, etc., will not be playing their parts though. ------------------------------ ZEMON@MIT-AI 01/31/81 19:43:09 Re: New C.J. Cherryh book Called DOWNBELOW STATION, 432pp and (shriek!!!) $2.75 in paper. I would buy any one of C.J. Cherryh's books sight unseen, but in the future I may go broke doing so. I mean, seriously.... [ Note, DOWNBELOW STATION is one of the Science Fiction Book Club's featured selections for April 1981. -- RDD ] ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jan 1981 (Wednesday) 1212-EDT From: SHARER at WHARTON-10 (Bill Sharer) Subject: Dark Star's availability Folks, Does anyone out there know if there are any rental agencies that carry Dark Star? I think I did see it once listed in one of the catalogues. Bill ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jan 1981 1123-PST From: Daul at OFFICE Subject: RESURRECTION I just thought that RESURRECTION deserved a mention here. I saw the film last night and I suspect there weren't to many people that weren't sniffling or dry-eyed. Ellen Burstyn was stunning in her performance as a healer. The entire film was one of the warmest and moving films I have ever seen. I wish film producers would back more films like this. I can justify putting this in SFL because it does have "a" special effect. I would highly recommend this film and I would like to hear what others think about it. Enjoy, --Bill ------------------------------ Date: 26 January 1981 1107-EST From: Hank Walker at CMU-10A Subject: earthquakes I was home over Christmas and from my reading of the LA Times, the source of all the noise appears to be a proposed earthquake standard for old brick buildings (the few that are left in LA). I believe that it passed the city council. Most of the noise occurred when the landlords of the buildings that were going to have to add reinforcements sent out letters saying that they'd have to throw the tenants out into the street if the law passed. I have friends at Caltech, and none of them has mentioned anything to me about earthquakes. Most people in LA live in one-story housing anyway. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jan 1981 14:21:06-PST From: CSVAX.arnold at Berkeley Subject: Earthquake Paranoia RODOF apparently missed the excuse being given for all the earthquake stories in the papers, which is the apparent cyclical nature of earthquake recurrance. Earthquakes along the fault which caused the SF quake in 1906 run about every 70 to 75 years. At least that's their excuse. Ken ------------------------------ DP@MIT-ML 01/26/81 10:55:26 Re: Earthquake... I recall hearing about this investment newsletter publisher/rumor- monger that was advising people to sell out, and claimed to have a date for the earthquake to happen. (Like sometime this spring.) As expected the media went gaga over this revelation, and that may explain the increase in coverage. Jeff ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jan 1981 1713-PST From: Mike Peeler Subject: ITS Ken, CSVAX.Arnold at Berkeley, invites, "There it is. Go ahead and tear it apart." All right, here goes. "ITS" is always spelled I-T-S, but sometimes it has an apostrophe and sometimes not. The rule for putting in the apostrophe is not supposed to be, the writer isn't sure so in it goes. Its apostrophe signifies that it's a contraction of two words. ------------------------------ DUFFEY@MIT-AI 02/01/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They continue the discussion of the Enterprise's computer in the episode "Wolf in the Fold". People who are not familiar with this episode may not wish to read further. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jan 1981 1053-PST From: MERRITT at USC-ISIB Subject: Re: mass storage in the enterprise computer Perhaps there wouldn't be disk drives, however throughout the Star Trek series references are made to 'Computer tapes'. This indicates some type of mountable devices. The impression given, however is something like that of that large Calcomp 'Magtape jukebox' device, since there is never any mention of any human actually mounting these tapes. The series spoke of a microcircuit which long-ago had replaced the transistor (I don't recall the exact episode). If you remember, the series preceeded the IC by a few years. Crystals were an idea used by the Superman movie, and probably elsewhere (though I havn't seen any others). I don't think that they appeared in Star Trek as memory. The only crystals I was aware of in the series was the Dilythium (?sp?) used for some sort of fuel process. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jan 1981 05:27:01-PST From: decvax!duke!unc!bch at Berkeley I tend to think that comparison of the STAR TREK computers to current technology is a futile effort. If we attempt to discern the nature of the Enterprise's computers from bits and pieces given to us over the entire series, it is possible to come to the conclusion that they are biological, not electromechanical, in nature. There is at least one episode (whose name I forget) wherein an experimental portable computer is based on a cat- brain, thus the concept of biocomputers has certainly not escaped CS-types in the STAR TREK universe. If we allow the cat-brain prototype to be an experiment in miniaturization of (rather than first use of) biocomputers, then we can consider the main Enterprise to be a biological device, hence its pre- dilection for being "taken over" by living entities. Going further, if we consider the Enterprise computer as an aggre- gation of semi-independent entities more or less similar in function to the various parts of a current computer, then it is possible to force an invading consciousness from part to part until it is expelled. How these parts were created/obtained I leave to debate! Byron Howes, University of North Carolina [ The episode with the "'cat-brain' biocomp" was entitled MIRI. -- RDD ] ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 2-FEB "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #29 *** EOOH *** Date: 2 FEB 1981 0832-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #29 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Monday, 2 Feb 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 29 Today's Topics: SF Radio - Boogie-Woogie to the Stars, SF TV - Outer Limits Question, SF Books - Ringworld, SF Movies - Outland & Computer/Action Films, Media - 3M Co. Hires the Dorsai, Spoiler - Altered States ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 1 Feb 1981 1544-PST From: Dave Dyer Subject: ZBS media address [see SFL V3 #27] ZBS R.D. # 1 Fort Edward, New York 12828 ------------------------------ Date: 23 January 1981 1406-EST (Friday) From: Joe Ginder Subject: Outer Limits episode I recently watched an Outer Limits episode entitled "The Guest" which did not seem to appear on Lauren Weinstein's episode guide. It was about a guy who finds an OLD man alongside a road and stops to help him. He ends up going up to a large gothic-style house and being trapped inside by an alien who is reading human minds in an attempt to discover the "equation" of human thought and thereby uncover the ultimate destiny of mankind. It seems that time (or at least aging) stops when one is inside the house and the old man had left and immediately attained a physical condition "normal" for his age (120 yrs). Is this one of the episodes in the guide appearing under a different name, or an episode not listed in the guide? The only episode whose description appeared even remotely close to this was "The Form of Things Unkown". ------------------------------ Date: 1 February 1981 1244-EST (Sunday) From: R.Kamesh Subject: The problem with Niven's universe The problem with mixing FTL and STL travel is not so much the mechanics (Kapitan - we haf ofershot ze gravity vell! De-accelerate main drive!) but the easy acceptance of both kinds of travel and an Einsteinian universe. Lets assume that FTL is non-relativistic, i.e., no differences in time rates are experienced by the travelers and the ones who stay at home. However, STL in Niven's universe is still relativistic; or, at least, he doesn't reject it. So the few days that Louis Wu and friends spend on the puppeteers home worlds (speeding just a fraction below the speed of light), corresponds to some years back on Earth (shades of faerie!). This would tend to make communication between the puppeteers and the rest of the universe a somewhat difficult event. (Heinlein's "Time for the Stars" had the right idea about the difficulty of getting telepathy to work between relati- vistically moving frames). Kamesh ------------------------------ JGA@MIT-MC 01/31/81 14:06:37 Re: Outland Does anyone know anything about an upcoming sf flick called Outland? I saw a preview last night when I went to see Altered States. It appears to be of the sex/violence/neat hardware genre. ------------------------------ Date: 1 February 1981 17:41 est From: Schauble.Multics at MIT-Multics Subject: Nasty things to do to peripherals The worst thing I have ever seen done to a peripheral was done as an exit stunt by a fired computer operator. He glued a small magnet to the tape guide of a tape drive at the point where the tape left the vacuum column AFTER passing the tape head. Note the beauty of this. Any tape could be written and the readback check would work. Any tape could be read correctly (once). And, the diagnostic test apparently never wrote far enough down the tape to push the checked area of tape out of the vacuum column, so it passed. The operator did this to two out of 12 tape drives. I never did find out how much of the library got wiped, but it took over a month to find the problem. ------------------------------ Date: 1 Feb 1981 11:07:53-PST From: sdcsvax!davidson at Berkeley Subject: Product endorsement by Gordon R. Dickson Looking through my February copy of Byte, I was caught by an advertisement featuring Gordon R. Dickson endorsing 3M floppy disks. Dickson is pictured leaning over a collection of his books in hardback holding one of the disks with a spacey backdrop (perhaps a cover from one of his books?). At the top of the page in great big letters is the endorsement: "My computer helped me write /The Final Encyclopedia.\ I wouldn't trust anything less than Scotch Brand Disketts to make a long story short." The /\ indicate underlining. Is this the first time an SF author has endorsed a major product like this? I discount Arthur Clarke's TV ads for Ma Bell, since he is not really endorsing them, just giving an interesting talk. Greg P.S. DON'T buy Scotch brand diskettes. They'll gum up your heads just like Scotch tape. ------------------------------ DUFFEY@MIT-AI 02/02/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last message in this digest. It talks about the ending of Altered States. People who are not familiar with this movie may not wish to read further. ------------------------------ JGA@MIT-MC 01/31/81 14:06:37 Re: Outland and Altered States (spoiler?) Does anyone know anything about an upcoming sf flick called Outland? I saw a preview last night when I went to see Altered States. It appears to be of the sex/violence/neat hardware genre. As far as Altered States goes, I really got off on the heavy use of bass and subsonic tones in the soundtrack. Is this a trend towards increasing use of subliminal techniques in movies? Does anyone think that movie-makers will go to increasingly greater lengths to get "gut reaction"? (Pun intended - it's known that certain frequencies in the 4-10 Hz range stimulate the peristaltic action of the gut.) The plot? Eh. While I identified with the protagonist during the movie, I realized, shortly after it was over, that Altered States has a decidedly anti-science bent to it. Consider the ending - everyday love triumphs over the forces of the universe. Even better, consider every scene where something unexpected comes out of the tank in the light of the quote "opening up Pandora's box". Hell, if I looked like she did in the final scene I'd stay like that, and get myself a season's ticket to Spit. Still, I'd see it again. Altered. John. [Footnote: Spit is a Boston punk club.] ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 3-FEB "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #30 *** EOOH *** Date: 3 FEB 1981 0652-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #30 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Tuesday, 3 Feb 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 30 Today's Topics: SF Movies - Outland & Raiders of the Lost Ark, SF TV - Outer Limits & Feb NOVA Schedule, Star Trek - The Computer, Star Wars - Nature of the Force ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 02 Feb 1981 0931-PST From: Tom Wadlow Subject: Outland Outland is about a mining colony on one of the moons of Jupiter. It involves a murder there and the subsequent investigation by the local marshal (Sean Connery, not Matt Dillon). The producers claim that there is not a ray gun in sight, in an attempt to convince us that this is "respectable" science fiction. Maybe it will be. (Incurable Optimism is a terrible thing. Help stamp out IO in your lifetime. Send your dollars to......) Outland will be released (so they say) in May 1981. -- Tom ------------------------------ Date: 1 Feb 1981 at 2024-PST From: Mike at Rand-Unix (Michael Wahrman) Subject: Raiders of the Lost Ark From an unnamed source within Lucasfilm (who probably doesn't care one way or another but is not easily locatable so I can't ask) a brief description of the new Spielberg/Lucas collaboration: Teeshirt description: A Nazi flying wing (ala Northrup) being lassoed by a cowboy. Cast: Nazis, Israelis, and Cowboys (chief cowboy is our own Han Solo). Plot: Would you believe that the Nazis have discovered that if they can find/get the Lost Ark of the Covenant (was this lost when the Romans destroyed the temple in Jerusalem? I can't remember.) then they will have special dominion over the world. The Israelis aided by some cowboys set out to stop them and save the world. My friend said that this movie is a fantasy. I asked him how he knew... Michael ------------------------------ Date: 2 Feb 1981 1605-PST (Monday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: missing OUTER LIMITS episode Egads! Gasp! Wheeze! Shudder! It's true. I apparently DID miss one episode when I compiled the original episode guide. Sigh, I must be getting old, those neurons just don't fire like they used to. Oh well. I have checked back with my original sources and picked up the original date that "The Guests" was aired. Actually, as soon as I was reminded of the episode, I remembered all of the plot details instantly -- somehow I missed it when I wrote up the guide. "The Guests" aired on 3/23/64. Chronologically, it fits between "The Mutant" and "Fun and Games". It is a good episode. I have updated the semi-famous OUTER LIMITS EPISODE GUIDE to include this episode. While I was at it, I also cleaned up a number of other entries and added an update or two. The Guide has been reformatted since many of the "old" SF-LOVERS recipients got their copies, so many of you may want to pick up a fresh copy so your collection is "up-to-date". I have forwarded a copy to our Moderator, who will presumably make it available via the usual techniques. I do not know what the access filenames will be at this time, but I am sure we can rely on a note from the Moderator when they become available (hopefully within a week or so). Sorry for the omission... --Lauren-- [ For those who can't wait, I append Lauren's description of The Guests. The revised version of the OLEG will be available soon from a computer near you. The Guests (3/23/64) *** A drifter enters a gothic mansion where time stands still and space is twisted in bizarre fashions. The occupants of the mansion are a strange collection of persons who do not age so long as they remain within the grounds of the building. The entire group is lorded over by a rather intellectual, "globular" alien, who seeks the "missing factors" to solve the "equation of the human condition". This is a very fine episode: brooding, atmospheric, and even thought provoking at times. -- RDD ] ------------------------------ Date: 2 Feb 1981 1108-PST From: Daul at OFFICE Subject: NOVA (PBS) for Feb. * NOVA for February * Feb 3 "The Big IF" is interferon -- purported by some to be a wonder drug. This program seeks the answer in London, Stockholm, Houston, San Francisco, and New Haven. Feb 10 "Anatomy Of A Volcano" accompanies an international team of geologist to Mt. St. Helens for an in-depth look at the effects of it's eruption. Feb 17 "The Science Of Murder" looks at the job of forensic scientists and law enforcement professionals. Feb 24 "The Malady Of Health Care" compares the U.S. and British methods of health care delivery. ------------------------------ KWH@MIT-AI 02/02/81 08:19:43 Maybe the Cat Brain computer in MIRI was not a computer built around the brain of a cat (a type of cyborg), but instead, a medical computer which has the general "power" to classify the brain of a cat. I.e., it refers not to the construction of the computer, but to its medical computing power - (That it can take a cat's brain, classify, analyze, and taxonomize (??) it to the maximum degree. (Of present [23rd century] technology). ------------------------------ FAUST@MIT-ML 02/02/81 13:57:11 Re: Enterprise Computer and things I doubt that the enterprise has any biological component, although I certainly agree that it is made up of several "distri- buted" units (I mean there must be SOME part of it controlling the heater vents). There is another episode of Star Trek that intimately involves the computer that noone has mentioned lately. It is the episode in which an experimental computer is installed aboard the enterprise which has been "imprinted" with the designers engrams (whatever that might mean). Then the computer does several stupid things like blow up a ship or two seemingly just for the hell of it. At this point, of course, Kirk wants to pull the plug. However, the designer (who is aboard the Enterprise) claims that it would be a mistake to pull the plug and that the computer should be considered to be "only a child" (albeit a very powerful one) which needs more time to mature. Anyway, the point is: what does this tell us about the nature of Enterprise computer? My guess is that the computer is a central intelligence (ala HAL) connected to the 22nd century equivalent of the DEC unibus. It can delegate responsibility for things to other "slave" units, but the main brain is all in one box (with spare parts for fault tolerance, of course). Naturally, this entire discussion is ludicrous. The obvious real answer to this (and almost every other discussion of this type that comes up in this list) is that the creators have not invested one tenth the time thinking about this as we have. Don't expect complete consistency within a single episode. But expecting consistency across several YEARS of episodes?!? COMPLETELY RIDICULOUS! This especially applies to all the STAR WARS discussions that have continued ad naseum. No offense to anyone. Note that these observations have not kept me from including my four cents worth (inflation). Speculating about what the author intended is half the fun of SF. After all, the author is only there to STIMULATE our imagination, not DETERMINE our thinking. Peacefully, Greg ------------------------------ Date: 2 Feb 1981 (Monday) 1010-PST From: DWS at LLL-MFE Subject: ITS cheap shot Gee, they sure look like dashes to me. ------------------------------ DUFFEY@MIT-AI 02/03/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last message in this digest. It offers further arguments on the nature of the force. People who are not familiar with the Star Wars series may not wish to read any further. ----------------------------- Date: 29 Jan 1981 08:52:22-PST From: CSVAX.drb at Berkeley [Long message on the force - spoiler warning for SW and TESB.] I believe "the force" has been used to denote both a fifth basic force of physics [or perhaps an entropy-decreaser], as well as the medium through which it is transmitted. The force is created, we are told by Yoda, by all living things. I assume this refers to the medium and potential energy, for even non-living things, such as the rock Luke lifts, seem to create a disturbance which can be sensed through the force. The light and dark sides are analogous to empathy and emotion, but it is life rather than feeling that creates the force. When Obi-wan senses the death of a planet [Alderran?] he is sensing the loss of life more than the suffering at the last moment, I believe. Luke creates a larger disturbance in the force than a normal human being because his life force is more closely coupled to the force than most people's, not because he is a hotter-blooded lover. The primary good use of the force is to sense things. One may sense objects, living beings, death, evil presence and intent [as when they near the dark star], the exact position of a small hole [as when Luke destroys the death star], an offending "zap" [as when Luke defends himself from the droid battle-exerciser while blindfold], etc. A Jedi trains himself to sense the force acutely, and allow it to flow directly to his reflex responses, rather than always thru his brain. This is the only way to be quick enough to block a "bullet" or accurate enough to hit a small hole. To do this, however, one must attune one's whole being to a position of relaxation and what-not consistent with Yoda's somewhat Zen-like philosophy. One lifts a very heavy object by composing one's mind to the point where it tells the body to automatically react to sensing the object by lifting it. The mind itself is not strong, fast, or accurate enough to be allowed to play a more direct role. Which leads us to the dark side. The body will never instinc- tively react by slitting someone's throat or causing great fear, especially at a distance to one who is not even an immediate threat. A Jedi has no compelling hold over other people and cannot command armies by force or fear, for these goals require the action of the mind. The dark side of the force consists of its ability to affect the real world by force, rather than simply transmitting information. One who succumbs to the dark side is obsessed with his ability to kill, mislead, scare, and generally dominate other beings. He appears to be stronger than a Jedi, for he harms other people more. His usage is external and forceful, rather than sensory and knowledge-obtaining. In a one-on-one fight I must bet on the Jedi. He is allowed to sense every blow before it lands, draw strength from the force instinctively when needed, and as long as he keeps the instinctive sense-react lines open and attuned to his higher ends, i.e. as long as his mind remains composed, there is just no way to injure him. A dark-side devotee will not sense as quickly, will want to crush others rather than defend himself, and is just not invulnerable. He can manipulate incredible numbers of slaves, but cannot harm a single Jedi. [So how DID Luke's father die?] A last point: Obi-wan misleads a soldier and kills some civilians, but it is all done through the instincts of righteousness and self-preservation. Also, the incident in the cave shows what can happen when an almost-Jedi loses his composure. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 4-FEB "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #31 *** EOOH *** Date: 4 FEB 1981 0655-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #31 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Wednesday, 4 Feb 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 31 Today's Topics: Queries - SF Book Club, SF Books - WE & Canopus Series & Utopian/Dystopian SF & Orphan & Ringworld, SF Radio - Boogie-Woogie to the Stars & Star Wars, SF Orgs - Palo Alto SF Readings, What Happens at a Con? - Boskone, Physics Imaginary - On the Solubility of Submarines in Seawater, Spoiler - Ringworld Engineers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 3 Feb 1981 11:23:28-PST From: CSVAX.dmu at Berkeley Subject: SF Book Club Lapse Can anyone shed some light on the following? Several months ago The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy was a featured selection. I promptly returned the slip, indicating that I wanted the book. However I haven't yet received it. (I had to borrow a copy.) Did this happen to anyone else (did SFBC run out) or did just my book disappear? David Ungar ------------------------------ Date: 03 FEB 1981 2317-EST From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Zamyatin's WE I read it a couple of years ago --- definitely \not/ the thing to dip into on a rainy day. (It had been suggested for a course in SF that I was preparing to teach; I decided it was much too heavy for a summer course running at twice the normal speed. Considering how little some of the students read anyway, that was probably a good idea. ------------------------------ Date: 03 FEB 1981 2315-EST From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Lessing's Canopus I've seen at least one review which blasted the latest book (and sideswiped the others) on the grounds that it was just plain terrible, endless talk attempting to conceal the fact that she has almost nothing to say, without slighting it on account of genre. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Feb 1981 15:43:26-PST From: CSVAX.arnold at Berkeley Subject: Lies in novels To: SAS@SAI-Prime You should read U.K. LeGuin's forword to Left Hand of Darkness, in which she propounds the statement that all novels are lies designed to transmit the truth. This was added to later paperback editions of the book. Ken ------------------------------ Date: 23 January 1981 0551-EST (Friday) From: R.Kamesh Subject: The Orphan by Robert Stallman I read this book a year or so ago and liked it. I saw it again recently and wondered if the author is RMS of MIT? Kamesh [ RMS@MIT-AI == Richard M. Stallman. -- RDD ] ------------------------------ Date: 3 Feb 1981 2341-EST From: G.Nessus at MIT-EECS (Doug Alan) Subject: Re: The problem with Niven's universe It seems to me (though I could be wrong because I can't check it in my Ringworld because a friend `borrowed' it) that even though the Puppeteers were travelling at relativistic speeds, they were not travelling at anywhere near 90% the speed of light. And even if they were travelling at 95% of the speed of light, their time would only be slowed down by about a factor of three. And if they happened to be racing along at 99% of the speed of light, their time would be slowed by only a factor of seven. The few days spent by Lewis Wu on the Puppeteer's home planet were at most a few weeks on Earth and were most probably only 2 X a few days -- certainly not years. Even a difference in time passage of factor two or three could cause problems in communication, but after the Puppeteers headed for the Clouds of Magellan, they rarely communicated with anyone anyway. -- Doug Alan ------------------------------ Date: 3 Feb 1981 1023-PST From: Mark Peairs Subject: ZBS Media productions For Stanford-area SF-lovers, KCSM radio (FM 91.1) has been broadcasting "Stars n' Stuff" at 11 P.M. on Sunday nights. I recommend it for inspired craziness and some really atrocious puns. Past shows have included "The Giant Tongue that ate Tucson", and further adventures of their perennial straight- man Jack Flanders, on a very cosmic journey to steal the Universal Field Theory from the Archives of Human Knowledge. Unfortunately Jack drops the box, and when it's finally opened, some of the particles don't seem to belong . . . I'm not sure how many more episodes are left to run in this series, but if you call the radio station they will send a program guide (free). Naomi Goodman c/o Mark Peairs ------------------------------ Date: 03 FEB 1981 2313-EST From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: STAR WARS on radio The agglomeration of information from several different sources seems to suggest that NPR will be relaying a BBC serialization of STAR WARS starting in March. (I say relaying because several sources have described it as being live-by-satellite from London, which will allow it to be broadcast in stereo, unlike (I think) the long-distance bands which allow the BBC to cover the globe directly (I seem to recollect that anything with a long enough wavelength to be reflected by the atmosphere has too low a frequency to carry stereo information via currently commercialized technology; given the announcements that the FCC is considering which AM stereo broadcast standard to approve, this may no longer be true.) The show being a USC production sounds like someone's pipe dream. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Feb 1981 1510-PST From: Rose at OFFICE Subject: Attention: Science Fiction Readers and Writers Prometheus is an organization in Palo Alto that centers on psychodrama but also promotes many other community activities, including readings of fiction and poetry. They are interested in seeing whether there is an audience for science fiction and fantasy readings. They have scheduled an evening of science fiction readings for March 21 in downtown Palo Alto. Three or four people will read and there are still open slots. Writers who would be interested in reading should send me a message or call Dirk van Nouhuys at (408) 996-1010, before February 13. Thanks! -Caroline Rose Tymshare ------------------------------ Date: 03 FEB 1981 1027-EST From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Boskone attendance ----- From: JMTURN at MIT-AI (James M. Turner) Shade and Sweet water to you, If I just show up at BOSKONE, will I end up being turned away? I.E. has the 3000 person limit been hit, or is it expected to by the Con? Will being a people-mover get me in if there's no room? James Turner ----- It is extremely unlikely that anyone will be turned away at the door from Boskone. We currently have 1000 preregistered and we have never had more than 535 of our attendees register at the door; often at-the-door registration has been as low as 40% of the total. We put up this limitation to encourage people to register early, so we would have some warning if there were to be the kind of explosive growth there has been in some previous years, and because several otherwise enjoyable East Coast cons in recent years have suffered from severe over- crowding; 3000 is the number of people we felt we could handle comfortably without using the Hynes Auditorium, which would be far too expensive for a Boskone. Chip ------------------------------ Date: 3 February 1981 0253-EST (Tuesday) From: Mike.Fryd at CMU-10A (C621MF0E) Subject: Submarines It's late at night and a local TV station just ran a US Navy propaganda film about Our Wonderfull Oceans. My roommates and I watched and noticed that they seemed to be trying to down play the submarine and to promote manned deep dives and diving bells. The only reason for downplaying submarines that we could think of, is that the oceans must have so many subs that they are nearing their saturation point. Too many more subs, and they might start to precipitate out. Does anyone have any data on just how many subs are out there, and how many it would take to make a saturated solution? ------------------------------ DUFFEY@MIT-AI 02/04/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last message in this digest. It raises a question about Ringworld Engineers. People who are not familiar with this novel may not wish to read any further. ----------------------------- Date: 27 Jan 1981 13:36 PST From: Kyle.ES at PARC-MAXC In "Ringworld Engineers" why, after the Hyperdrive was destroyed, didn't the Puppeteer signal for help with a Hyperwave transmission? He could have moved the ship out of the singularity of the Ringworld star to transmit using conventional drive. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 5-FEB "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #32 *** EOOH *** Date: 5 FEB 1981 0644-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #32 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Thursday, 5 Feb 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 32 Today's Topics: SF Books - Seeking Sword, SF Movies - Altered States, SF Radio - Star Wars, SF TV - KQED and Dr. Who, Future - What if?, What Happens at a Con? - Boskone, SF Orgs - Menlo Park SF Readers, Star Wars - Nature of the Force ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KLH@MIT-AI 02/04/81 21:21:25 Re: Query re "Seeking Sword" Okay, here's a tough one. There is a book by one Jaan Kangilaski called "The Seeking Sword", in which the protagonist uncovers a great many historical references to the "sword" in question. What I'm wondering is whether any of those references are based on fact; that is, did the author take them from actual accounts, or are they all completely fictional? (I'm not sure which to hope for). And who is Kangilaski? Normally a book like this (garish cover and all) isn't likely to interest me, but I wound up being rather impressed. It's not fantasy, really. I don't think I would read it again since the suspense is gone, but it's better than a lot of other junk on the shelves. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Feb 1981 1730-PST From: Vittum at OFFICE Subject: Altered States Review Recently saw the movie "Altered States", and felt that, although the visual effects enhanced the tone, the acting credible, and the cinematography as a whole was very well done - that the last 5 to 10 minutes were so OVERDONE as to destroy and overshadow any laudable features of the film! I left the theater shaking my head and thoroughly understanding why the screen writer chose to take his name off the credit list. Proposal - anyone interested ought to write in with their own idea for a more appropriate ending ...nothing could be much worse! Pam Vittum ------------------------------ RWK@MIT-MC 02/04/81 09:26:22 Re: pipe dream Well, if USC's version is a pipe dream, then Playboy wasted an entire page describing a pipe dream as if it were already in progress. 1) According to the Playboy article, Lucas sold the radio rights to Star Wars for $1. I guess it would be possible this wasn't an exclusive license, or the laws in Britain may be different. 2) Playboy included a photograph of Hammill and others that sure looked like they were recording in a radio studio. 3) Hammill, et al, are being paid. Playboy says where the money comes from and the amount, but its been a couple days since I looked at it. 4) Playboy includes an interview with Hammill. If you still think this is a pipe dream, I'd suggest you look at the Playboy article yourself. Does anybody on this list ever listen to KUSC? Or anybody on the West Coast volunteer to contact them to find out the schedule, etc.? ------------------------------ Date: 4 Feb 1981 14:17 PST From: Brodie at PARC-MAXC Subject: Dr. Who Outage --- Don't panic; reverse the positronic flow! Reply-To: Brodie KQED San Francisco has preempted Dr. Who for this week and the next; however, it will resume Wednesday, February 18, at the normal time of 8 p.m. KQED's PI director assured me that, while she "can't believe somebody actually watches that show --- I bet you like Monty Python, too" --- KQED has the rights to 98 big episodes and is likely to show them all. Richard Brodie ------------------------------ Date: 03 FEB 1981 2322-EST From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: farsighted business? There's been a certain amount of talk recently about the fact that businesses seem unwilling to keep up support for anything that isn't paying off over the current quarter. I grant that starting a line may not be the same as continuing one, but it's worth noting that not everyone is this shortsighted; Bob Guccione announced some time ago that he expected it to take 5 years for OMNI to break even. Now if we put \him/ in charge of the shuttle project. . . . But can you imagine what the redesigned shuttle would look like??!? ------------------------------ Date: 04 FEB 1981 1707-EST From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Boskone msg AARRGGHH! The NNth corollary to Murphy's law states that the one remaining typo will be the one which makes the worst hash of the msg. Specifically, that was supposed to be that Boskone has never had more than 53 \%/ (per cent) of its attendees pay at the door, not that the peak at-the-door registration was 535 people. (Boskone XVI had over 1000 people register at the door --- but it may have been helped by our being invited to appear on Norm Nathan's midnight talk show on WHDH-AM two days before the con.) ------------------------------ KLH@MIT-AI 02/04/81 21:07:13 Re: Menlo Park Library fans I'd like to hear from everyone who uses the Menlo Park library as a SF source. Possibly also the Palo Alto library, although its selection tends to be much inferior. If there are enough of us, we might be able to swing their book purchases towards quality choices, or just notify each other of new stuff. Send replies to me, not SF-LOVERS. I will re-distribute the results only to respondents. --Ken ------------------------------ DUFFEY@MIT-AI 02/03/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They offer further arguments on the nature of the force. People who are not familiar with the Star Wars series may not wish to read any further. ----------------------------- Date: 3 Feb 1981 23:34:37-PST From: ARPAVAX.arnold at Berkeley Subject: nature of the force (ad nauseum) Drb's contention sounds a bit mainstream to me, but to each his/her own. I must protest, however, the idea that a Jedi who draws from the dark side (Darth Vader, to name names) cannot harm one who does not succumb to that side of the force (ObiWan, for example). ObiWan was killed towards the end of SW, if my memory serves, and even though he has mysteriously hovered around like a guardian angel (explain THAT one in terms of any current explanation of the force), he is still rather dead. I still am not sure (maybe I just didn't read carefully enough) how DRB would explain the lifting of the rocks and R2D2 in terms of detection, although (s)he explains well enough many other intricacies. Mind you, I don't claim my hypothesis does any better. I hadn't taken into account the detection powers, although I in retrospect I think it would fit right in. I just don't see the dichotomy between dark and right sides to be as DRB projects them, and I also prefer less obvious rationalizations of authors' half-baked ideas. That (not to mention egotism) makes me favor my theory. Since DRB is from Berkely, too, maybe we can have it out in Sproul Plaza one day, and see who can harness the Force better! (Better set those light sabres on stun, or am I getting my space westerns mixed up?) Ken P.S. I must apologize to the world for that misplaced "'" in my original letter, which was kindly pointed out by a diligent reader. Its sometimes hard to get ones' punctuation, right isnt' ?it ------------------------------ Date: 4 Feb 1981 16:54:46-PST From: CSVAX.drb at Berkeley 1. Obi-wan's "death" consisted of a [well-performed, I thought] vanishing trick. Vader's sword never touched him. I'm not sure whether Obiwan is really still alive or in Jedi-heaven, but it was definitely not a conventional demise. 2. I wonder why Obi-wan or Yoda cannot carry on the battle. A Star Trek episode in which Kirk was split into "good" and "bad" halves suggested that we need a little dark side to give us drive and authority, but I don't think that's the case here. 3. The force can be used to move objects, as can any "force" of physics. It is ok to use this to supplement one's own strength in otherwise normal [good] activities, as this merely represents working with the universe, rather than against it. It is "dark" to turn the force created by other living beings against them, or to try to eliminate that force. [I admit this explanation is a little thin, and am grateful to see my oversights pointed out. Of course, I just blame it on the author's ideas being half-baked ...] Perhaps, after all, the dark side is nothing more that the light side + the sins of Lucifer [pride first]. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 6-FEB "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #33 *** EOOH *** Date: 6 FEB 1981 0710-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #33 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Friday, 6 Feb 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 33 Today's Topics: SF Radio - Star Wars, SF TV - Dr. Who, Future - What if?, SF Books - Cybernetic Imagination in SF & Ringworld Engineers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 Feb 1981 14:55 PST From: Hamilton.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: SW on KUSC radio: from the horse's mouth Angelenos: I just called KUSC. The 13-week series of 1/2 hour Star Wars radio episodes begins Sunday 8 March at 6 p.m. Each weekly episode will be repeated the following Thursday at 4:30 p.m. --Bruce ------------------------------ Date: 05 Feb 1981 0931-PST From: Tom Wadlow Subject: Dr. Who Does anyone know how often (episodes/week) Dr. Who is shown in England? Having watched the first few episodes shown in San Francisco, it seems that the show was designed to be seen on a more frequent basis than it is available here (every Wednesday from 8:00 pm to 8:20). -- Tom ------------------------------ Date: 5 February 1981 1554-EST From: Hank Walker at CMU-10A Subject: farsightedness I think that it's probably incorrect that most companies take the short-term view. Any computer project these days takes 5 or more years to do, so you're going to "lose" money on it for at least that long. Obviously utilities take even longer views, with 30 year bonds, and 15 years to build a nuclear power plant. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Feb 1981 at 2348-CST From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ MUMBLES AND GRUMBLES ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THE CYBERNETIC IMAGINATION IN SCIENCE FICTION, by Patricia S. Warrick, MIT Press, 1980. This has been mentioned a couple times on SF-L, but I am just now getting around to reading it. So far (chap. 5) I have found it even more interesting than any fictional SF I have waiting to be read. There are certain parallels between W's approach to the study of robots and computers in SF and mine of its female protagonists. She, too, needed to compromise between attempting to deal with with \all/ the relevant pieces of fiction, vs. an extensive but selective sample. She opted to take only short stories which had been anthologized, while trying "to be more exhaustive in selecting the novels". If she had just left it at that, even without stating the criteria by which her selections were made, one could be more comfortable with her findings. Admittedly I would also wish for specification of what constituted cybernetic SF (e.g., how important must the robots or computer be to the story; what is her rationale for including cyborgs when artificial intelligence is the crucial factor, and then, where is the line between a human with prosthetics and a cyborg?), but because she says she "believe[s] that most of the novels about robots and computers have been included in the study", I am left to wonder just how widely read she is in the genre, after all. Scanning the 82 book titles (novels and single-author collections) in her list covering the period of 1930-1977, I look in vain for certain expected ones. Possibly T.J. Bass' cyborg GODWHALE or Philip E. High's INVADER ON MY BACK and NO TRUCE WITH TERRA's animal robots might not have fit W's undivulged specifications, but the latter's MAD METROPOLIS surely would. If a good ol' ACE- double hack like High was too obscure, Randall Garrett's UNWISE CHILD is still a notable omission. And, especially in view of her well-known anticomputerism, so is Norton's VICTORY ON JANUS. And Bayley's SOUL OF THE ROBOT, f'r gosh sakes! And James White's SECOND ENDING. If W intentionally excluded 'plain' bionic man types like Caidin's CYBORG, but still included machines-plugged- into-people, like McCaffrey's THE SHIP WHO SANG, where is Laumer's A PLAGUE OF DEMONS, (or his BOLO), or Koontz' A WEREWOLF AMONG US? If Berserkers, why not Daleks? These are lacunae that spring to mind just from looking thru her list of works covered in the study. Checking with Nicholls' SF ENCYCLOPEDIA would reveal a lot more. Too many, alas, to attribute as much value to W's study as an SF-fan-&-computer-devotee would have liked. ....... And speaking of McCaffrey's TSWS, Warrick repeats the common error of thinking that Helva is a disembodied brain. W compounds her mistake by saying such cyborgs' brains "are severed \at birth/ from their bodies". According to the 1970 Ballantine edition -- "She lived and was given a name, Helva. For her first 3 vegetable months she waved her crabbed claws, kicked weakly with her clubbed feet and enjoyed the usual routine of the infant." p. 1 and "Most babies survived the perfected techniques of pitui- tary manipulation that kept their bodies small, ... Shell-people resembled mature dwarfs in size....." p. 2 After all, Niall's compulsion to open Helva's casing would be worse than ridiculous if all that's there is just a hunk of gray matter with a lot of wires coming off it! ( Poor Annie! People are forever whetting their ignorance on her stuff. RESTOREE seems to bear the worst of the brunt, getting almost inevitably referred to as a "space gothic". SF readers recognize that it is a romance told from the woman's point of view, and have heard that "gothic romances" were very popular with ladies, and so they put two and two together and get 22 instead of 4. Even Nicholls' flubs, referring to it as "the story of a young lady brought back from SUSPENDED ANIMATION [his emphasis] for dubious purposes". Maybe in his British English that "for dubious purposes" doesn't have the implication it does in my American, but the "young lady" was \not/ in suspended animation but all too aware until being literally skinned alive by BEM's drove her to the escape of insanity. ) ------------------------------ DUFFEY@MIT-AI 02/06/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last message in this digest. It talks about the logic of an event in The Ringworld Engineers. People who are not familiar with this novel may not wish to read any further. ----------------------------- Date: 4 Feb 1981 1533-EST From: G.Nessus at MIT-EECS (Doug Alan) Subject: Stranded on Ringworld Perhaps Hindmost could have sent a distress signal, but it would have been futile. Why would the Puppeteers want to spend a lot of money and risk rescuing a crazy, treasonous, Ex-Hindmost renegade? And what sane Puppeteer would go to get him? Hindmost would not have sent a signal to Earth because he could not trust the intentions of Human rescuers. And what Human would want to go on a four year trip just to save one Puppeteer, a Kzin, and one Human. ------------------------------ KWH@MIT-AI 02/05/81 07:01:17 Re: Ringworld Engineers (spoiler) In reply to Kyle's question, the Hindmost in the Ringworld Engineers was: a) crazy b) a renegade c) REALLY scared ( Not any of this faked garbage like Nessus pulled - with a note of fear in that luscious carefully concocted contralto.) He couldn't call the Puppeteers - He had stolen a ship, kidnapped a *KZIN*, and endangered the whole puppeteer colony. His only hope for being received back was to get the transmuter. If he called Known Space, they'd simply be happy to be rid of Louis - he's the only person outside of the UN who knows there's a Quantum II hyperdrive. Roughly, the same goes for Chmee - Chmee mentioned he would have to fight his son when he got back. Anyway if he called the Kzinti, he might get help - a battle fleet of Quantum II ships - who would chase down the puppeteer exodus right after blasting the hell out of the "Needle". There might also be logistic problems which I don't remember, since I haven't read the book for a year or so. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 7-FEB "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #34 *** EOOH *** Date: 7 FEB 1981 0922-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #34 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Saturday, 7 Feb 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 34 Today's Topics: SF Music - Filk Books, SF Books - Rare SF Poll & Mirror for Observers & Why Computers Will Never Think, SF TV - Dr. Who, Star Wars - Nature of the Force ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DP@MIT-ML 02/06/81 23:40:47 Re: Any SF Bay people coming to Boskone? We need some Westerfilk books in time for Boskone. It is not clear if UPS or the US Snail can get them here by then. If anyone is coming from that area, and wouldn't mind a little extra luggage, please send me a note. tnx, Jeff ------------------------------ Date: 6 Feb 1981 1504-PST From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE Subject: Favorite rare SF poll I am now ready (sorry for the delay) to take a poll of people's favorite unusual science fiction and fantasy. The idea, as I said earlier, is that many people have a few favorite obscure authors and books, and that SF-LOVERS seems to be an ideal group of people to get a list of such books from. Any novel, short story, or series that you (1) enjoyed reading, (2) think is relatively unknown or obscure, and (3) think of as science fiction or fantasy, is eligible. There is no limit to the number of entries from any one person. Please mail your lists to OR.TOVEY@SCORE. I'd appreciate it if entries included title, author, information about availability (e.g., whether the book is o.p. or not), and a \brief/ description of the book (e.g. "An effectively chilling retelling of a German folk tale -- fantasy"), to the extent that you can supply this information. I will probably accept entries for a month or so, depending on response. There may be a second part of the poll to give everyone an opportunity to judge the obscurity of the works. (I am relying on the individual judgement of members of SF-LOVERS, as you can see, both in deciding what "sf" and "fantasy" books are, and in deciding what is "obscure". The second part of the poll would be used only to append other people's thoughts on the latter.) Good reading, --cat ------------------------------ Date: 7 Feb 1981 at 0220-EST From: RDD at MIT-AI Subject: A Mirror for Observers Sometime ago, Steve Zeve asked what you can do for someone you have turned into a Pangborn fanatic by having them read his classic "Davy". A recent find in an obscure corner of a bookstore suggests an answer. Try Pangborn's "A Mirror for Observers". Several thousand years ago Mars was a dying world. In order to survive, the Martians emigrated to Earth. They built a series of hidden cities, inaccessible and unknown to us. And they wait. Observing us. Looking for ways to help us reach the ethical level where our civilizations can merge. Waiting for us to destroy ourselves. In the hands of an unskilled writer, this hackneyed plot becomes pulp SF at its worst: Mushroom Men from Mars. Pangborn however, is a master wordsmith. Here he has told a rich story of two Martians. One an observer. The other, a dissident, who seeks the end of our civilization. Their conflict centers around a boy who may be capable of leading our ethical revolution. One of a few people who may be capable of learning to see in a mirror for observers. Recommended. And the winner of the International Fantasy Award for 1955. Enjoy, Roger ------------------------------ Date: 6 February 1981 2118-EST (Friday) From: Paul.Hilfinger at CMU-10A (C410PH01) Subject: For a good laugh Take a look at the Dec. 1980 issue of SIGLASH Newsletter (Special Interest Group on Language Analysis and Studies in the Humanities), put out by the ACM. Its one article is titled "The Linguistic Reason Why the Computer Will Never Think". The reason? "semantic structure has 22 operators while Boolean Algebra has only 3." Good grief! --Paul Hilfinger ------------------------------ Date: 6 Feb 1981 at 0913-PST From: Chesley at Sri-Unix Subject: Dr. Who Several years ago (approx. 5 or 6), the Chicago PBS station broadcast (I believe) one season of Dr. Who episodes. They were shown one per day, five days a week. Stories consisted of from four to six episodes, so you got about one story per week. It was very nice, and I used to run home every day to catch the show (which was on at 5:30PM). I've been wishing ever since that PBS would start carrying Dr. Who on a more regular basis. Whether this is the frequency with which the program is shown in England, I don't know, but it sure works out nice. --Harry... ------------------------------ DUFFEY@MIT-AI 02/07/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last message in this digest. It offers a fresh speculation on the nature of the force, which is also a comment on the nature of physics in that far away galaxy. People who are not familiar with the Star Wars series may not wish to read any further. ----------------------------- Date: 6 February 1981 19:02 cst From: VaughanW at HI-Multics (Bill Vaughan) Subject: What Happened to Old Ben It's clear that Obi-Wan Kenobi is still around although he was neatly chopped in twain by Vader some years back (no, not an expwess twain). The reason for this unnatural survival has been variously attributed to the Force, vanishing acts, etc. - but never to its correct cause: the Law of the Conservation of Jedi Number. Like baryon and lepton numbers, Jedi number is conserved - as witness the name of the Jedi, a plural form of which the singular is not only nonexistent, but ridiculous. (Would you believe a Jedus? Jeda? Jedum?) Such a linguistic feat is possible only in the case that there can never be only one of them. Obi-wan can only pass on to his reward when Luke has been duly anointed one of the Jedi. Why else would he (or his probability function) have pleaded with Yoda to continue Luke's training? -- Of course, the previous discussion has forgotten that the Emperor and Vader are clearly anti-Jedi, and consequently the Jedi number of the universe is zero. This gives Obi-wan another chance to shuffle off this mortal coil, by mutual annihilation with Vader. Did you ever notice that light sabers are blue- shifted, while anti-light-sabers are red-shifted? Clearly a field for more study. Bill ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 8-FEB "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #35 *** EOOH *** Date: 8 FEB 1981 1206-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #35 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Sunday, 8 Feb 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 35 Today's Topics: SF Books - Downbelow Station & Obscure SF Poll, SF Theater - Bus Bozos, Censorship and Pornography ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 Feb 1981 2248-PST From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE Subject: "Downbelow Station" Just finished "Downbelow Station" by C J Cherryh, and liked it a lot. It doesn't have a lot of hardware, but it's well-plotted and has good characters. It takes place at a time when interstellar expansion is well under way. Although the initial exploration was done by the Company, an Earthspace-based concern, they became frightened when intelligent (though non-technological) aliens were discovered on the first habitable world found, Pell. They tried to restrict further expansion, but the outer worlds rebelled, and were swept up by a gruesome totalitarian regime called Union. The Company built a Fleet to battle Union, but after decades of fruitless hit and run maneuverings, they withdrew their support and retreated from interstellar space. The Fleet fought on, raiding supplies from the colonies/space stations, and replenishing their troops by impressing crewmen from merchant ships. They are feared by the Union and the stations alike, but they continue in their duty. The action centers around the station orbiting Pell. The natives of the planet are a gentle, hominid-level race. They are fascinated by humans and work in the station as manual laborers. The station is run by a family called Konstantin, who are determined to protect the rights of the natives, the neutrality of the station in the war between Union and Fleet, and in general civilized values in a universe that is degenerating into barbarism. However, they are the last base between Union and Earth and so cannot escape the war. When the book opens the Fleet has evacuated the next stations outward and dumped thousands of riot-prone refugees upon Pell station. As the book progresses the situation gets worse and worse. This is not a story of sunlight and laughter. The book is long (400+ pages), but the plot carries you along relentlessly. I would pick a few nits like noting that the accelerations in the battle scenes are unrealistic or wondering where Union gets its officers and explorers if it clones all its citizens in birth factories. The settings and characters, though, are drawn so vividly that I couldn't put it down. I'd give one warning, though. Like all Cherryh's books the threads of character and plot are too complex to remain unbroken if you only read a couple of pages at a time. Knock off one afternoon and take it all in a gulp. ------------------------------ Date: 7 Feb 1981 0721-PST From: Mike Peeler Subject: Obscure SF poll A suggestion to OR.TOVEY@SCORE for his poll on obscure SF: entries getting lots of votes should be disqualified on the grounds of not being obscure. ------------------------------ HENRY@MIT-AI 02/07/81 16:50:39 Re: Speaking of Bozos "We're all Bozos On This Bus" by the Firesign Theater is full of references to computers and AI. The general theme on the second side is that of a hacker (Clem) who manages to penetrate the security of the program controlling the simulated world. Clem figures out how after watching the more naive Barney discover a bug. There are verbatim excerpts from the Doctor program (called "Doctor Memory" and who says things like "I am not sure I understand you fully"), Lisp error messages ("READ - unhappy MAKNAM"), PDP-10 operating systems ("SYSTAT up time ..."), Winograd's SHRDLU program, Multics, etc. It seems likely that the Firesign Theater must have had help from somebody in the AI/computer science community in putting together the record, probably either here at the "grounded iron gates of the Pneumatic Institute" or among the "SAILers" in California, though I can't get anybody I know to admit it. Does anyone know how they managed to get the background material for the record? ------------------------------ Date: 5 Feb 1981 0220-EST From: The Moderator Subject: Administrivia - Censorship and Pornography Discussion The following three messages are the last messages in this digest. They continue the discussion of censorship and pornography that has been running in SF-LOVERS. When the present discussion is finished, a transcript of it will be provided to the POLI-SCI mailing list mentioned in SFL V3 #27. Until then, I will insure that this discussion does not interfere with other material more directly related to the theme of SF-LOVERS. In general, messages in the censorship and pornography discussion will be placed near the end of the digest as a kind of "spoiler section" so that anyone who is not interested in following it, can easily avoid it. As always, questions and comments can be directed to me by addressing them to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@MIT-AI. Cheers, Roger ------------------------------ Date: 5 Feb 1981 1705-EST From: RCLIFFORD at BBNC Subject: RE: THE WARRIORS I saw Hank Walker's comment about "The Warriors" this morning. I have to clarify that The Warriors and the film about the chicano gang in LA are not the same flick. The Warriors is/was a film about gangs in New York. The story is based on a 1965 novel of the same name. (I forget, for the moment, the author's name.) As I remember, the film took a lot of flak because of its so-called violence. There was a Mass. state senator (Salvo, DeSalvo, something like that) who demanded the film be banned because it incited violence. He hadn't seen it. I saw it. It was one of the most under-rated, overly publicized films of '79. The violence never reached the level of being overt or explicit. The gang-fight scenes were reminiscent of "West Side Story" rather than "The Dirty Dozen". The fights were gracefully performed and had a lot of style. The film, I think, reminds me of Black Orpheus in its theme. Anyway, censoring anything is bad. Censoring something because you think it is evil is worse. By the bye, Hank, the film you are thinking of, I have been told, is called "Boulevard nights". Thanx, if you can help. Robin (RClifford@BBNC) ------------------------------ Date: 5 February 1981 19:49 cst From: VaughanW.REFLECS at HI-Multics (Bill Vaughan) Subject: pornography & censorship With respect to confiscation of porn films when it seems that those films are evidence of criminal activity: (1) Why not use them for evidence? Wasn't the news film of Jack Ruby shooting Lee Harvey Oswald used as evidence in his trial? (I think it was, but could be wrong...) (2) What does that have to do with confiscation? What's wrong with copying? And certainly, confiscation of *all* copies is ridiculous. Sounds to me like using a legitimate purpose to cover up an illegitimate act. --Bill ------------------------------ Date: 6 Feb 1981 1550-PST (Friday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: some last words on censorship? While I don't seek out such places, I have a pretty good feel of the "highs" and "lows" of pornography in the U.S. And, indeed, much of the material is incredibly bad -- too low for words. Strange though, it SELLS. I mean, it's not as if people were FORCED to go into these stores and buy such crap. The very existence of such materials indicates that there is demand (and a quite substantial demand) for such items. My friends, it's good old capitalism at its finest; a "textbook" example. And, just for the hell of it, let's suppose that tomorrow, we declared, "No more pornography!" Would it really go away? Hardly. All we would succeed in doing is channeling a larger chunk of funds into the illicit avenues that thrive on providing, "what the public wants". All through human history, the "powers that be" have attempted thought control via various sundry techniques. One of the most time-honored is control of information. But does it really work in the long run? Have we succeeded in stamping out heroin addiction by making it something you cannot legally buy? How about marijuana? Friends, neighbors, countrymen, lend me your ears! Those people who would tell you what you can watch, what you can read, or what you can buy, for the "good of society" are the truly dangerous persons. The "band-aid" approach to fixing society simply does not work. Attempting to suppress those things that substantial numbers of people really want will not change those people -- but it will change the avenues that the money flows along. I'll end this here. But really, does repression of ideas or desires, for the good of "all", ever REALLY work out in the long run? --Lauren-- ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 9-FEB "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #36 *** EOOH *** Date: 9 FEB 1981 1102-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #36 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Monday, 9 Feb 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 36 Today's Topics: SF Books - The Final Encyclopedia, SF Theater - Bus Bozos, SF Movies - Altered States, Censorship and Pornography, Star Wars - Nature of the Force ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Feb 1981 (Sunday) 2239-EDT From: ROSSID at WHARTON-10 (David Rossien) Subject: THE FINAL ENCYCLOPEDIA Being a Dickson fan I noted (as did another SFLer) that the advertisement in BYTE mentions "his latest work is the FINAL ENCYCLOPEDIA." Anyone know more about it, like when it will be available? ------------------------------ Date: 8 February 1981 15:41 est From: Margolin.TPSA at MIT-Multics The Firesign Theatre did have some professional help when they were making "We're All Bozos on This Bus". Supposedly, (this is second hand knowledge) they visited SAIL before making the record. They got to see such things as the DOCTOR program, etc. Then they incorporated it into the record, with very good results. ------------------------------ Date: 08 FEB 1981 1340-EST From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: ALTERED STATES I haven't seen the movie, and don't intend to until it shows up at a con (if then) as fanac, 2+ choruses, and crazyBridge leave little time for entertainment on someone else's schedule; more to the point, I read the book (from SFBC; allegedly written before the screenplay by the original screenwriter, namely Chayefsky) and thought it a second-rate, hackneyed plot (SIMON, which didn't take such a half-assedly pompous tone, was a far better movie) with an unbelievably bad ending. If Chayefsky was the one who insisted on having his name taken off the credits, it looks more like a matter of a writer's overgrown ego ("Nobody messes with my golden words!") than a supportable critical judgment. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Feb 1981 1029-PST From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE Subject: re: repression and pornography Just because some people desire something does not mean that it cannot or should not be suppressed. A large market exists for the implements of murder, so by Lauren's argument there must be a basic human desire for it. And yet other countries succeed in `censoring' it far better than the US does. Markets can be manipulated, and so can desires. Pornography is a growth industry. There have been cases of the successful repression of an idea, though whether everyone benefitted from it is, of course, open to argument. Have you ever heard of the Albigensian Heresy, or the Gnostics? Probably not, for the Catholic Church utterly crushed both movements. On a lower level, a lot of blood sports have been suppressed, partly through changing mores, but a lot of it because of humane societies. Dog vs. rat fights were popular in Victorian times, but seem bizarre and cruel to us. ------------------------------ DUFFEY@MIT-AI 02/09/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They offer further arguments on the nature of the force. People who are not familiar with the Star Wars series may not wish to read any further. ----------------------------- TANG@MIT-AI 02/07/81 19:31:02 Re: Nature of the Jedi CSVAX.drb asked why Ben and/or Yoda don't attack Vader themselves. Perhaps TWO Jedi can't overcome Vader & the Emperor, but THREE (or perhaps FOUR) Jedi could. And the best way to train a Jedi is by letting himself get the stuffing knocked out of him a couple of times. So all this is but training for the final showdown where Luke, Obiwan, Yoda et al face Vader, the Emperor, et al in a Ragnarok. Jack ------------------------------ Date: 8 February 1981 09:41-EST From: Robert W. Kerns Subject: Why anti-jedi light sabers are red, and jedi's are white Obviously, this is because jedi's are ethically advancing, while anti-jedi's are ethically receding, relative to the viewer. The result is relativistic blue and red-shift. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Feb 1981 14:07:30-PST From: ARPAVAX.arnold at Berkeley Subject: force, etc. It was not my contention that there was no difference between light and dark force. My idea of the difference was not the use it was put to, but the part of the universe (good vs. bad) from which one drew the force to implement one's desires. This is because it would seem that Jedi can do the same basic things (most especially use light sabres). It would be hard to generalize about the relative powers of the two sides, since we only have one instance in which two trained wielders dueled, and that ended ambiguously. Yet some difference exists, and I would attribute that (possibly due to an intense training in modularity) to a power source which distinguishes between the two, rather than give both light and dark sides very similar natures with only a few (albeit major) differences. The advantages of drawing on one side as opposed to the other would be in the side effects on the wielder, i.e., the dark side would be the type of power which corrupts, and the light side would be power that could only be used for good things, and therefore wouldn't corrupt. (As an amateur political scientist, I might point out that this sort of power has never manifested itself, and probably can't, but again, a western is a western, and besides, maybe that is what all the training is for.) It is, if I may propose an analogy, sort of like whether you decide at a dinner party to eat chicken with your fingers or with a knife and fork. Both are ways to eat chicken, but one is more appropriate socially, the other more pragmatic, so you makes yo' choice, and you takes yo' consequences... Ken P.S. I might also mention that whether one eats chicken with one's fingers or not is probably more important than the Nature of the Force, anyway. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Feb 1981 1224-PST From: Daul at OFFICE Subject: The Source of the Force... If you look very carefully...you can see solar collectors on the backs of the jedi's heads. Darth has a battery pack in his helmet. --Bill ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 10-FEB "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #37 *** EOOH *** Date: 10 FEB 1981 0536-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #37 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Tuesday, 10 Feb 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 37 Today's Topics: SF Radio - Star Wars and HGttG, SF Books - Veils of Alzaroc & Godel Escher Bach & Human Themes, Censorship and Pornography, Star Wars - Nature of the Force & Plot ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 9 Feb 1981 0637-PST From: ADPSC at USC-ISI Subject: SW and HGttG on NPR There is an ad in the March 81 issue of Harper's magazine concerning the NPR Playhouse. There will be four different series, including Star Wars (13 episodes) and HGttG (12 part series). This is scheduled for a March debut. At the bottom of the page it says "Check local NPR stations for day and time of broadcast or call NPR toll free (800) 424-2909. In Washington, D.C. call 785-5353." Don ------------------------------ Date: 9 Feb 1981 0939-PST From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE Subject: "Veils of Alzaroc" Fred Saberhagen's latest is a bit of a disappointment. He sets up an intriguing situation and then never explains or develops it. Alzaroc is a not-quite-planet in orbit around a pulsar and a black hole. Every year a veil of stuff exhaled from the two other members of the system falls on it and isolates anyone on the planet from the rest of the universe. They can no longer leave the planet or make physical contact with anything not under the veil when it fell. In fact, people who have had different numbers of veils fall on them cannot contact each other. The more veils that separate people the harder it is for them to speak or even see one another. Well, that's pretty bizarre. Is there any reason to believe in it physically? No. Saberhagen uses black holes as magic, saying that the "unimaginable forces" involved somehow transformed interstellar material into the veils. Is it used in some metaphoric way? Kind of. One of the subplots is about a man who returns to a long-lost lover even though sixty veils now separate them. At the end of the book though he just takes off again with some other shiggie without resolving the affair. Oh well. It was probably a good short story. ------------------------------ Date: 9 FEB 1981 2158-PST From: FORWARD at USC-ECL Subject: Mini-Review of Godel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid I just finished Godel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid; Pulitzer Prize winner by Douglas R. Hofstadter, Asst. Prof. of Computer Science at Indiana University. At 775 pages and with something like 775 equations, it is a strange candidate for a Pulitzer, but it deserves it. On pages 402 and 403 there is a strange discussion between Achilles and the Tortoise about an author working on a book where the author hides the ending. Tortoise: You've undoubtedly noticed how some authors go to so much trouble to build up great tension a few pages before the end of their stories -- but a reader who is holding the book physically in his hands can FEEL that the story is about to end. Hence, he has some information which acts as an advance warning, in a way. It would be so much better if, for instance, there were a lot of padding at the end of novels. The conversation goes on in the same vein for another page. GEB is about self-referential objects, and this section is obviously a discussion in GEB about GEB. Taking this to heart, I FOUND the true ending to the book. It is on page 18. If you just read pages 1 through 18 of GEB, you have the whole message. The rest of the 757 pages are padding. Illuminating to be sure. But padding. Recommended. (The first 18 pages.) Bob Forward ------------------------------ Date: 9 Feb 1981 10:49:36 EST From: Ward Harriman Subject: And Just What Makes Us Human??? After reading all the discussion of the Ringworld in SFL I was overcome and decided to read the book. Although there is much to consider in the book I found the most interesting to be the aspect of 'human luck'. This brought to mind a variety of other 'human' traits which permeate SF-F literature. For examples: 1) LUCK as described in Ringworld (and in gambling as in Star Trek). 2) Will to live, love of life. (Star Trek again.) 3) Humor (Stranger.) 4) Self-righteousness (Chronicles of T.C.) 5) Sex and Love (bet you can't name just one) 6) Boredom (Time enough for Love) 7) View of Capitalism as a Natural Law. (I could say Rand but I'll say TANSTAAFL) 8) Mortality. (Lord of the Ring) These are just a few. I'd love to hear from the rest of you. What is it that identifies humans in SF-F literature? How do authors exploit our views of mankind? Is it our own view of humanity that leads us to read SF-F ? esh ------------------------------ Date: 9 February 1981 1845-EST From: Hank Walker at CMU-10A Subject: suppression censorship The item about the Church suppressing heretic movements doesn't seem relevant to me today. It is surely easy to delete whatever you want from society given the power to go around and wipe that stuff from peoples minds, or scare them into forgetting. Luckily we do not live in such a society. Modern communications and transportation make total suppression of something next to impossible. I don't recall a big campaign to suppress dog-rat fights. Perhaps the mores of society simply changed (as they always have). This seems to me to be the surest way to be rid of something. But to my knowledge, no one has discovered how to direct society's mores. They can barely catalog them as it is. ------------------------------ DUFFEY@MIT-AI 02/10/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following two messages are the last messages in this digest. They offer further arguments on the nature of the force. People who are not familiar with the Star Wars series may not wish to read any further. ----------------------------- Date: 6 February 1981 18:48 cst From: VaughanW at HI-Multics (Bill Vaughan) Subject: The meta-nature of the Force We're taking an awfully shallow view of this Force thing, aren't we? Why, one might think it was only a movie... Why believe that Yoda and Obi-Wan (or is that O.B.1) speak for Lucas? I really get two distinct messages. The first message: that of Obi-Wan and Yoda. They speak for themselves. I suppose they believe what they are saying; most religious types do. And make no mistake - though the Emperor and Vader may not treat it so, the Jedi (both of them) make a real religion out of the Force. Why, when Yoda issues a pronouncement, one expects to hear the Mormon Tabernacle Choir in the background singing "amen." And his entire tone of voice changes - when speaking \ex cathedra/, that is. Unfortunately, as SF-L has been so busy discussing for the last few weeks, this view of the Force seems to hold a few inconsistencies - at least, for those used to modern Earthly religions. (A Parsi or Manichaean would be more comfortable with a dualist Force.) But the inconsistencies are so clear, it's tempting to believe that Lucas' view is not consonant with Yoda's. The second message, then: Suppose the Force is a force (small f)? A natural thing, that arises somehow (from *Life*?) and can be used by any sufficiently well-trained being. Suppose the force isn't "light" or "dark", but can be used for good or evil indiscriminately. Suppose the Jedi are that staple of SF plots - people who misguidedly made a religion out of something inherently natural. It makes sense. The asceticism required of a trainee is known to evoke mystic or "religious" experiences in mankind. Why not in muppet-kind as well? (Or whatever we want to call Yoda's species.) Anyway, it's fun to think that Lucas may be giving us a glimpse of a false religion - and remember that Skywalker, by the end of TESB, is not yet entirely converted; he may be like the practitioners of Transcendental Meditation, who accept the mechanisms of Maharishi's brand of Yogism while rejecting its religious aspects. Happy speculating, Bill ------------------------------ Date: 9 Feb 1981 1001-PST From: Tom Spencer Subject: TESB spoiler warning Prediction: Luke will lose his other hand, so Han will have to use his sabre, and become the Jedi trainee. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 11-FEB "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #38 *** EOOH *** Date: 11 FEB 1981 0703-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #38 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Wednesday, 11 Feb 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 38 Today's Topics: SF Books - Rare SF & Godel Escher Bach & Veils of Azlaroc, SF Mag - Jim Baen ACE and Destinies, Physics Tomorrow - Antigravity, Star Wars - Nature of the Force & Alternities ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 Feb 1981 1632-PST From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE Subject: DNA Cowboys Query One entry for the rare-sf poll which was known to be obscure but not necessarily good is a trilogy by former rock star Mick Farren: The Quest of the DNA Cowboys, The Synaptic Manhunt, and The Neural Atrocity. I like the titles; could someone who has read the books comment on them? --cat ------------------------------ Date: 10 Feb 1981 12:50 PST From: Reed.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: GEB, an EGB Any book that wins a Pulitzer Prize for it's first 18 pages has got to be incredible. I happen to think it WAS incredible, although I think it is misleading to call the rest of the book "padding". Many of Hofstadter's most significant ideas were, perhaps, expounded in the first 18 pages (I don't really accept that), but the real point of his book can only be grasped on the meta-level. And the meta-level can only be grasped after first reading the book. Thus, the whole book is really the padding, and it comes before the real story, not after. -- Larry -- ------------------------------ Date: 10 Feb 1981 1440-PST From: CSD.BOTHNER at SU-SCORE Subject: "Veils of Azlaroc" To begin with: "Veils of Azlaroc" can hardly be Saberhagen's latest, since I bought it 1.5 years ago. I must say that I enjoyed it very much. Logically/scienti- fically it may be rubbish, but that seldom bothers me. There is a difference between not knowing or caring about scientific accuracy, and the writing of science fantasy (or whatever you call it) where an author's goals are completely different. What I especially liked about "Veils" was its evocative style. What I like about (what little I have read of) Saberhagen is his ability to conjure very striking images. In "Veils" the best part is a couple of interconnected scenes near the end at the time of the actual veilfall. I felt this as "Sense of Wonder" at its best. --Per Bothner ------------------------------ Date: 10 February 1981 18:33 est From: Janofsky.Tipi at RADC-Multics Subject: SF Editors I just finished the latest issue of Analog and discovered that Jim Baen is leaving (has left?) ACE and Destinies (sob!) as SF editor to join "Tom Doherty Associates". Can anyone clue me in on who the new ACE SF editor is (will be?) and what TDA is? Thanks, Bill J. P.S. In addition to some pretty good short stories and the conclusion of "Shuttle Down" (US Space Shuttle stranded on Easter Island) there is an interesting synopsis of the latest events in Unified Field Theory work with a little bomb in hiding: The lastest math indicates that anti- gravity is THEORETICALLY possible. Hmmmm? Considering that anti-gravity, perpetual motion machines, and FTL travel have been theoretically IMPOSSIBLE for so long now, maybe we'll see the math basis for an FTL drive in the next decade or so?? ------------------------------ DUFFEY@MIT-AI 02/11/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following four messages are the last messages in this digest. They offer further arguments on the nature of the force and the Star Wars universe. People who are not familiar with the Star Wars series may not wish to read any further. ----------------------------- Date: 10 Feb 1981 14:02:43-PST From: ARPAVAX.arnold at Berkeley Subject: force capitulated I must bow and desist in the face of superior logic. Bill Vaughan's concept of the force as a mysticized natural force is much more irreverant, and probably more reasonable, explanation of it all. My only bone to pick is that he seems to think that Lucas may be "giving us a view" of a false religion. I would contend that Lucas probably hasn't given it any thought at all, and is probably just using the whole Force bit as a "literary" device to differentiate the Good Guys from the Bad Guys. You are probably giving him a good deal more credit for background plot development than necessary, considering the movie. Oh and, yes, Bill, I do believe it is a movie. I am probably one of the vanishing breed of mavericks who don't believe that one day, we too will be whizzing through the sky in miniature painted models, pushing the special effects sound pedal to make noises which will later have rays of light or missiles attached to them, battling the evil hordes wearing molded plastic armor, and posturing dramatically in front of matte prints. I personally believe we will probably end up being the unfortunates \in/ that molded plastic armor.... Ken ------------------------------ Date: 9 Feb 1981 at 2319-CST From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ STAR WARS' PENULTIMATE FAN RIDES AGAIN ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Ken (ARPAVAX.arnold at Berkeley) and some of the others currently engaged in a discussion of the nature of the Force are evidently new to SF-L since last summer when we had all that confabulation about TESB and the STAR WARS universe. Their current discussion suggests that they would probably enjoy (and gain some enlighten- ment) reading the compilation Roger made of messages devoted to the topic. Meanwhile, old timers will please forgive me any redundancy as I do my usual nit-picking, but there are 2 errors in Ken's comment-- "...My idea of the difference [between the 2 sides of the Force] was not the use it was put to, but the part of the universe (good vs. bad) from which one drew the force to implement one's desires. This is because it would seem that Jedi can do the same basic things (most especially use light sabres). It would be hard to generalize about the relative powers of the two sides, since we only have one instance in which two trained wielders dueled, and that ended ambiguously." For one thing, whether or not there is any relation between the use of the Force and their skill with light sabers, the duel between Vader and Luke did NOT end ambiguously. Tho Vader was initially surprised at the extent of Luke's skill, he had been patently not extending himself. But in the 3rd segment of the duel (out on the gantry) he attacks savagely and comes off clearly the victor. Secondly, light sabers in themselves have no intrinsic relation to the Force, but are merely an "old fashioned" kind of weapon, and not restricted to Jedi use by anything but custom. The fight in the cantina would be analogous to one in a \modern/ dive if a thug would start to draw a gun during an argument, but his opponent pulled out a sword and slashed even faster. It was a situation involving an unexpected, outmoded weapon used with equally unexpected effectiveness that amazed the onlookers, not that it was a "magic wand" type of gadget. [ We indeed have a time ordered collection of all the Star Wars material that has been distributed. It is approx. 1.2 megabytes in size. This is somewhat larger than we can easily handle. What I will do is set up transcripts of the conversations relevant to the current discussions in the next few days. Arrangements to obtain copies the TESB archive per se will be considered individually. -- RDD ] ------------------------------ Date: 10 Feb 1981 at 1350-CST From: korner at UTEXAS-11 In light of current speculation about the nature of the force, a small bunch of us here at UTEXAS have come up with a novel theory. It seems on a level with current speculation. Constant exposure to the force does weird things to your head. Witness Yoda who is described in SW12 as a handsome young man. Clearly the light sabres were developed to keep jedi ears down to size (Yoda's been alone too long). This also explains Darth's disfigurement (never get an earcut from too green a trainee). Different color sabres have different cosmetic effects. Hope that clears up the mystery... ------------------------------ Date: 10 Feb 1981 10:34 PST From: Brodie at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: The meta-nature of the Force In-reply-to: VaughanW's message of 6 February 1981 18:48 cst If Obi-Wan speaks for all those who do not speak for themselves, who speaks for Obi-Wan? ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 12-FEB "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #39 *** EOOH *** Date: 12 FEB 1981 0728-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #39 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Thursday, 12 Feb 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 39 Today's Topics: Physics Tomorrow - Antigravity & Dean Drive, SF Events - Boskone SFL Party & Calendar, Star Wars - Nature of the Force ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 11 FEB 1981 0821-PST From: FORWARD at USC-ECL Subject: Anti-gravity and FTL Some forms of anti-gravity and FTL have been theoretically possible for a long time. See "Far Out Physics", Analog, August 1975 and its references, especially "Guidelines to Antigravity", Am. Journal of Physics, Vol. 31, p. 166-170, March 1963, and "Antigravity", Proc. IRE, Vol. 49, p. 1442, Sept 1961. A form of perpetual motion, a perpetually circulating super- current in a superconducting lead ring was demonstrated decades ago. Of course, a perpetual motion machine that keeps on running while you extract energy out of it is still impossible (but that isn't because the backyard inventors aren't trying.) Bob Forward ------------------------------ Date: 11 February 1981 13:19 est From: Janofsky.Tipi at RADC-Multics Subject: Re: Anti-gravity and FTL OOOPS! I stand corrected. (I shouda known better than running off at da mouf' before doing my homework!) Now, is it possible that the backyard inventors haven't announced their successes 'cause they can't navigate back from the first trial run of their FTL drive?? Speaking of homework, does anyone on SF-L have recent info on the Dean Machine, Davis Mechanics, and inertialess drives in general? Bill J. ------------------------------ Date: 11 FEB 1981 1026-PST From: FORWARD at USC-ECL Subject: Dean Drives The last good summary is G. Harry Stine's article, UPDATE ON THE DEAN DRIVE, in the June 1976 Analog. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Feb 1981 2317-EST From: Steven J. Zeve Subject: BOSKONE SF-L party. If a Bostonish perchild is willing to co-ordinate, I am willing to supply a room for a party. (I would have offered before, but I didn't really think about until a day ago and in my state of creeping senility I tend to forget to do things, like sending this). Only problem is that I haven't the faintest idea what room I will be in, but it will be a small room. steve z. [ We resolved the room number problem at WORLDcon by posting an inocuous message with the room number on it on the Con Bulletin Board. I would suggest doing this in the same way. What is needed now is a time (Saturday evening?) and several volunteers for refreshments... -- RDD ] ------------------------------ Date: 11 Feb 1981 15:45 PST From: Richard R. Brodie Subject: Calendar of Science Fiction Events Here is the SF-Lovers event calendar. If you have information about any events you would like to see added to the calendar, or are associated in some way with one of the listed events and would like to contribute, please send mail to Brodie at PARC-MAXC. ------------------------------ Calendar of Science Fiction Events As of February 11, 1980 ------------------------------ DUN DRA CON VI, scheduled for February 14-16, 1981, has been cancelled. There will probably be a DUN DRA CLONE over Labor Day weekend. ------------------------------ February 12-16, 1981 (Southern California) AQUACON. Disneyland Hotel, Anaheim, CA ($56 single). PO Box 815, Brea, CA 92621. February 13-15, 1981 (Massachusetts) BOSKONE XVIII. Pro GoH: Tanith Lee; Official Artist: Don Maitz. Sheraton-Boston ($57/single, $69/double). Cost: $15 to N.E.S.F.A., Box G, MIT Branch P.O., Cambridge MA 02139. Films, program, seminars, art show, hucksters room, filksinging, games, costume party, Glamor and Sparkle. Info on dealers' tables and art show is available; dealers' room will probably be larger than in past years as we now have more of the hotel. Registration limit of 3000. (We aren't happy about the room rates either, but there isn't a usable hotel with significantly better rates.) SFL liaison: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock). February 14, 1981 (Florida) STONE HILL LAUNCH II. Ann Morris, 1522 Lovers Lane, Riverview, FL 33569. February 20-22, 1981 (Illinois) CAPRICON I. Holiday Inn, Evanston, IL. GoH: Terry Carr; FGoH: J.R. & Mary Jane Holmes. Box 416, Zion, IL 60099. February 21-22, 1981 (Southern California) THIRD ANNUAL J. LLOYD EATON CONFERENCE. Science Fiction and Fantasy Literature. University Club, UC Riverside, Riverside, CA. Leslie Fielder. University Library Room 120, Box 5900, Univ. of California, Riverside, CA 92517; (714) 787-3221. February 22, 1981 (Southern California) THE SECOND (SEMI) ANNUAL TRANSYLVANIAN CONVENTION. A six-hour Rocky Horror party (12 noon - 6 p.m.). Los Angeles Hilton. Feature Films, Concert Shorts, Exhibit & Slide Show, Collectibles, Live Entertainment, Costume Contest, Door Prizes, probably a showing of Night of the Loving Dead [Yes, lOving]. The Worst Films Show (7:00pm-10:00pm, extra admission). Two of the all-time worst films, plus trailers, shorts, etc. (213) 656-9090. February 27-March 1, 1981 (North Carolina) STELLARCON VI. University of North Carolina. David Allen, Box 4-EUC, University of N.C., Greensboro, NC 27412. March 1, 1981 (New Jersey) OPN ESPA. Wayne Public Library, Wayne, NJ. 35th anniv meeting of Eastern SF assn. Film interviews of Asimov, Gernsback, Leinster, et al. Allan Howard, 210 W. Crescent Pkwy, S. Plainfield, NJ 07080. March 6-8, 1981 (Texas) OWLCON II. Rice Program Council, PO Box 1892, Houston, TX 77001. March 6-8, 1981 (Wisconsin) WISCON 5. Madison Inn/Convention Center. GoHs: Chelsea Quinn Yarbro, Buck & Juanita Coulson, Don & Elsie Wollheim, Teresa di Laurentis, Steven Vincent Johnson. Cost: $10 till 2/28, $12 door. SF3, Box 1624, Madison, WI 53701. March 6-8, 1981 (Florida) FANCON I. Ramada Inn, Panama City. GoH: Irv Lipscomb. Cost: $5. FanCon c/o Alliance, Box 1865, Panama City, FL 32401. March 13-15, 1981 (Kentucky) UPPERSOUTHCLAVE XI. Bowling Green, KY. Box U 112, College Heights Station, Bowling Green, KY 42101. March 13-15, 1981 (Ohio) MARCON 16. Hilton Inn, Columbus ($36 single, $42 dbl). GoH: Andy Offutt. FGoHs: Bob & Anne Passovoy. TM: Jodie Offutt. Box 2583, Columbus, OH 43216; Mark Evans (614) 497-9953. March 13-15, 1981 (Mississippi) COASTCON. Royal D'Iberville Hotel, Biloxi, MS ($48 single/dbl, $10 ea. addl.). GoH: Jerry Pournelle; FGoH: James Madden. Cost: $12.50. Box 6025, Biloxi, MS 39532; (601)374-3046. March 20-22, 1981 (New Jersey) LUNACON '81. Guests: James White, Jack Gaughan. Sheraton-Heights, Hasbrouck Heights, NJ (marginally attainable by public from New York City). Cost: $11 till 2/28/81, $14 door. Box 204, Brooklyn, NY 11230. March 27-29, 1981 (England) FANDERSON 81. Gerry Anderson. Leeds, England. Pam Barnes, 88A Thornton Avenue, London W4 1QQ Engalnd. March 27-29, 1981 (Washington) NORWESCON 4. Hyatt, Seattle. Cost: $12 till 3/16, $15 door. Limit 1400. Under 8 free. Box 24207, Seattle, WA 98188; (206) 364-8607 or (eves) 747-6964. April 3-5, 1981 (Kansas) FOOL-CON IV. GoH: Katherine Kurtz and Michael Whelan; Toastmaster: Robert Asprin; Guest artists: Herb Arnold, Jann Frank, Robert Haas, Tim Kirk, Daryl Murdock, Real Musgrave; other special guests: Lynn Abbey, Patricia Cadigan, C.J. Cherryh, Arnold Fenner, Barbara Housh, David Houston, John Kessel, Pat & Lee Killough, Carl Sherrel, John Tibbetts; possibly Robert Heinlein, Richard Lupoff. Cost: $7.50 till 3/15, $9 after (Banquet $7.50 addl; $10 door). 10% of profits to Nat'l Space Institute; Presentation of Balrog Awards. Johnson County Comunity College, Overland Park, KS 66201. April 11-12, 1981 (Minnesota) MICROCON 1981. SF/Comics/Games. Mpls. Comic Conventions, Box 3221 Traffic Station, Minneapolis, MN 55403. April 18-20, 1981 (Maryland) BALTICON 15. Hunt Valley Inn, Baltimore. GoH: John Varley; AGoH: Darrell Sweet. Cost: $10 adv. BSFS, Inc., Box 686, Baltimore, MD 21203. April 25-26, 1981 (Nebraska) ELECTRACON I. GoH: Ed Bryant; FGoH: Suzanne Carnival; AGoH: Dan Patterson. Cost: $7.50; $10 door. Banquet TBA. "Nebraska's first SF con." Box 1052, Kearney, NE 68847. May 8-10, 1981 (Tennessee) KUBLA'S NINTH KHANPHONY. Ken Moore, 647 Devon Drive, Nashville, TN 37204 May 9-10, 1981 (Georgia) EMORY-TREK II. Atlanta Star Trek Society, c/o Kenneth Cribbs, 2156 Golden Dawn Drive SW, Atlanta, GA 30311 June 5-7, 1981 (Arizona) PHRINGECON 2. PO Box 128, Tempe, AZ 85281. June 12-14, 1981 (Wisconsin) X-CON 5. M.P. Inda, 1743 N. Cambridge, Apt. 301, Milwaukee, WI 53202. June 13-14, 1981 (Kansas) COSMOCON II. c/o Charley S. McCue, 34 halsey, Hutchinson, KS 67501. July 2-5, 1981 (Northern California) WESTERCON 34. GoH: C. J. Cherryh; Fan GoH: Grant Canfield. Red Lion Motor Inn, Sacramento, CA; (916) 929-8855; $32 single and double, $8 addl person. Party wing. Cost: $20 till 6/14/81, $25 door. P.O. Box 161719, Sacramento, CA 95816. July 10-12, 1981 (Missouri) ARCHON V. GoH: Tanith Lee; Fan GoH: Joan Hanke Wood; Toastmaster: Charlie Grant; also Joan Hanke Wood, Wilson 'Bob' Tucker, Glen Cook, Ron Chilson, George R. R. Martin, Joe and Gay Haldeman, and Michael Berlyn. Chase-Park Plaza Hotel, St. Louis, MO ($44 single, $52 2/3/4). Soliciting program ideas and/or people who could help carry them out. Also looking for more artist names to add to the mailing list for soliciting contributions to the art show. This was successful at ARCHON IV (over 60% of artists sold works), and they are trying to expand. There will be more art show space and display panels this year. Also in the process of reviewing art show rules and would welcome suggestions. SFL liaison: WMartin at Office-3 (Amy Newell). September 3-7, 1981 (Colorado) DENVENTION TWO. 1981 World Science Fiction Convention. Pro GoH: C.L. Moore, Clifford Simak; Fan GoH: Rusty Hevelin. Denver Hilton. Cost: $35 till spring 1981. P.O. Box 11545, Denver, CO. 80211. (303) 433-9774. November 5-7, 1981 (Southern California) LOSCON '81. Huntington Sheraton, Pasadena. PGoH: William Rotsler. FGoHs: Len & June Moffatt. Cost: $10 till 7/4. LASFS, 11513 Burbank Blvd., North Hollywood, CA 91601. July 2-5, 1981 (Arizona) WESTERCON 35. Adams Hotel, Phoenix ($29 single, $5 ea. addl.) GoH: Gordon R. Dickson. FGoH: Fran Skene. TM: David Gerrold. Cost: $15 ($6 supporting). Box 11644, Phoenix, AZ 85064; (602) 249-2616 or 841-1137. September 2-6, 1982 (Illinois) CHICON IV. 1982 World Science Fiction Convention. Pro GoH: A. Bertram Chandler; Fan GoH: Lee Hoffman; Artist GoH: Kelly Freas. Hyatt Regency, Chicago, IL. Cost: $30 till 6/30/81; $15 supporting; $7.50 conversion. PO Box A3120, Chicago, IL 60690. ------------------------------ DUFFEY@MIT-AI 02/12/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following four messages are the last messages in this digest. They offer further arguments on the nature of the force and the Star Wars universe. People who are not familiar with the Star Wars series may not wish to read any further. ----------------------------- Date: 11 Feb 1981 14:49 PST From: Woods at PARC-MAXC Subject: light sabre battle (spoiler) To: HJJH at UTEXAS-11 I think you missed Ken's point: He said "we only have one instance in which two trained wielders dueled, and that ended ambiguously." The emphasis should be on "trained". Luke is not yet a full Jedi. The battle Ken referred to was therefore the duel between Darth and Obi-wan, which most definitely ended ambiguously. -- Don. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Feb 1981 1128-PST From: Mike Peeler Subject: Nitpicks nitpicked When Ken "Arpavax.Arnold" at Berkeley said, "...we only have one instance in which two trained wielders dueled, and that ended ambiguously", hjjh at UTexas replied, "...the duel between Vader and Luke did NOT end ambiguously". Ken referred not to Luke's duel with Vader, but to OB1's, and that did end ambiguously. As Luke is not a "trained wielder" of the force (nor, in my opinion, of the light saber), we really do have only one such instance. There's no telling what a little training might do for Luke's natural talent. Until he finishes his training, or perhaps, finishes off the Dark Side without it, we don't know whether Good Force or Evil Force is stronger, although in the Star Wars universe the Good seems likely to win. I agree with HJJH that the Jedi have no monopoly on light sabers. On their use, however, they do. The keen perception of a Jedi guided by the force gives him a distinct advantage over any other wielder of the same weapon. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Feb 1981 17:30:49 EST From: Ward Harriman Subject: (I just had to put in my two cents, ) of FORCE. I was always under the impression that the Force was a natural phenomena which re-enforced the will of those tuned to it. In my view the difference between 'light' and 'dark' was only a matter of approach. The final goal was to assert one's will strongly enough (and correctly enough) that the Force would provide what-ever it is the Force provides. Since the Force is a mindless thing it takes on the nature of the will of the user. The 'dark' side of the Force comes about only because the will of the user is 'dark'. The 'dark' side of the Force is seductive because results are more quickly gained. This stems from the fact that it is easier for we mere mortals to think 'dark' thoughts more intensely that 'light' (?) ones. In short, the use of the Force dictates it's nature. If it is used for good it is considerred 'light'; if used for evil it is considerred 'dark'. The Force has no 'light' or 'dark' side, it only appears so because the people using it have divergent goals in using it. As an aside, we never really hear Vader's side of the story. Perhaps we are totally mistaken simply because we've been listening to Yoda & OB1. After all, the Jedi have gotten good press lately. esh P.S. The above must be the case since a natural force such as EM or Grav. Clearly can't be good or evil, after all, it just isn't what GOD had in mind! ------------------------------ Date: 11 February 1981 11:34-EST From: Charles T. Dale Subject: Title or Name? In reading the current Force discussions the other day, I noticed Obiwan abbreviated to O.B.1. Is it just a coincidence that he is a Jedi Knight played by Sir Alec Guiness (O.B.E.)? ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 13-FEB "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #40 *** EOOH *** Date: 13 FEB 1981 0758-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #40 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Friday, 13 Feb 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 40 Today's Topics: SF Books - Star Fall & Empire of the East & Holmes/Dracula File, SF Mags - Destinies, Physics Tomorrow - Antigravity, SF Events - Boskone SFL Party, Star Wars - Nature of the Force & from Imperial Broadcast News ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Feb 1981 09:51 PST From: Weissman at PARC-MAXC Subject: Star Fall "Star Fall" by David Bischoff, Berkeley Books, May 1980, paper $1.95 Pico-review: Good, solid, imaginative space opera. A very entertaining 8th novel by the 29-year-old secretary of the SFWA. (This from the bio blurb -- does anyone know of his other seven?) It's the mid-21st century. A giant luxury spaceliner, the Star Fall, is on its maiden voyage to the legendary planet Earth. Aboard are members of various sentient races, including humans and Morapns, who co-built the ship. The voyage is billed as promoting interstellar harmony among races -- but somewhere aboard (in a "maxi-entropic transit- molecular magnetic box", of course) is a chunk of antimatter large enough to destroy the Earth. Our heroes (a most unlikely bunch including an interstellar assassin, a fat mama's-boy, and a mysterious 14000-year-old entity named Cog) must discover who is behind the plan to destroy Earth and stop him/her/it/them in time. It's hard to go into detail without generating a spoiler, but there's a lot of good stuff in this book. Much of it is derivative (twinges of Star Trek, Niven, etc.), but on the whole it's put together well enough that you don't really mind. Recommended for lightweight escapism and entertainment. /RLW ------------------------------ Date: 12 Feb 1981 1021-PST From: WMartin at Office-3 (Will Martin) Subject: Saberhagen Since we are now discussing stuff by Saberhagen, let me recommend two books of his I read recently: EMPIRE OF THE EAST and THE HOLMES-DRACULA FILE Empire is a good long sword-and-sorcery tale with an SF touch coming in near the end. Anyone interested in the "mana" and magic discussions we've had will enjoy it, plus it's a fairly good story. Holmes-Dracula could be considered either mystery or fantasy, but should be read by any Holmes freaks or vampire-lovers out there. As a matter of note, it far surpasses the other novel on the same subject, written by a Britisher, I believe, called "Sherlock Holmes vs. Dracula". Will Martin (WMartin at Office-3) ------------------------------ Date: 12 Feb 1981 1426-PST From: Alan R. Katz Subject: Destinies and Antigravity Destinies: I sent in a subscription a few months ago and was informed that ACE planned on halting publication on it and they sent my money back. I guess that means no more Destinies mag. Has anyone else heard anything else on this? Antigravity: As Dr. Forward pointed out, there have been theoretical possibilities for antigravity for a while. I would take the antigravity claim for supergravity with a grain of salt (since I work in the field), it is certainly possible to come up with a number of theories with antigravity in it. In fact, one could probably come up with a theory that contained FTL and time machines also; and even included all we know about physics now. The question is whether such a theory has any bearing on reality, ie does it describe the way the universe works instead of a way it could work. The trouble with extended supergravity is that it is sort of possible to unite all of the forces of nature in one framework (sort of possible because there are some other problems with it). However, the theory contains lots of other forces and particles that we do not see, there is a real question of whether such a theory correctly describes the way things are. However, I feel that the approach is right and that supersymmetry type theories point the way to a correct theory. Alan PS I was really distressed to see that Analog article, I was thinking of doing one like it, I guessed I waited too long. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Feb 1981 0220-EST From: Duffey at MIT-AI Subject: SF Events - Boskone SFL Party I have no more information about the party to pass on to you. No one has said anything since yesterday's room announcement went out. Therefore all I will suggest is that Boskone SFL's should check the Con Bulletin Board to see if anything comes to pass on Saturday evening or later. Cheers, Roger ------------------------------ DUFFEY@MIT-AI 02/13/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following four messages are the last messages in this digest. They offer further arguments on the nature of the force and the Star Wars universe. People who are not familiar with the Star Wars series may not wish to read any further. ----------------------------- Date: 12 Feb 1981 at 2010-CST From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 To: woods at parc-maxc ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ YER \RIGHT/! AND, YER W-R-O-N-G! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Indeed, I misread the reference to "2 trained [lightsaber] wielders" in thinking it meant Luke and Vader instead of "2 [FULLY] trained wielders". But, the ambiguity in the outcome of the duel between Vader and Obi-Wan lies in what happened to Ben, NOT in who was the better swordsman or was winning the fight. Admittedly Vader's pre- eminence is not as visibly clear as when he bests Luke out on the gantry, but we also have his taunts, "Your powers are weak, old man!", which Ben tacitly acknowledges in "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine". Moreover, as Lucas (or whoever really wrote the book) describes that duel in the novelization, Vader IS winning the fight-per-se. Regrettably, I do not have my SW collection at hand, and can only recommend that doubters check that out in the text. ------------------------------ PCR@MIT-MC 02/12/81 08:03:00 Re: The Force Concerning the recent discussion about the force, we are forgetting a very important item: In SW5, during Luke's training with Yoda, Luke enters a cave and meets himself dressed as DV. Just before he enters, he says something like "It's cold." and Yoda replies "It is strong with the Dark side" or something like that. (You'll have to forgive me, it's been a long time since I saw the movie.) Wouldn't this indicate that the force is *not* neutral, as has been suggested in this discussion? ...phil ------------------------------ Date: 12 February 1981 2313-EST (Thursday) From: The Twilight Zone Subject: On the Nature of the FORCE (probably spoiler) After reading the latest digest and ruminating about about what happened in TESB I would have to say that there are two kinds of FORCE. It is really hard to tell since the movie is kind of ambiguous about it. When Luke was being trained for Jedi-hood by Yoda he went into a "cave" which, if I remember correctly, Yoda said was strong in the Dark Side. Now, unless you believe that unintelligent creatures, like the ones we saw inhabiting that "evil" place, can be good or evil (including plants) and you don't believe Yoda when he said that the Force was inti- mately intertwined with all living things (esp. greenish ones) then you might not believe that there were actually two kinds of FORCE. -Doug P.S. Actually I think that Lucas just did it all for the effect and any amount of consistency above that needed to keep you watching at any particular moment is simply random chance (after all monkeys are real cheap and typewriters abound, or is it the other way around???)... ------------------------------ Date: 13 Feb 1981 0014-PST From: POP at USC-ISIF Subject: STAR WARS - THE TRUTH MEGA-SPOILER WARNING: For too long you readers of SF-L have been concerned with trivial questions such as WHO is the other hope? WHAT is the nature of the force? Rarely do you even consider the possibility that you might be the victim of a monstrous deception. Did you know that: The "Jedi Knights" were a band of interstellar terrorists intent on the overthrow of the legitimate Imperial government. The "Death Star" was the most modern stellar laboratory, involved in investigating pre-nova disturbances. By crippling the main drive, the terrorists were able to both begin vile and untrue rumors connecting the research station with the cause of the system-wide destruction and to destroy much information of inestimable value for nova-prediction. Whole colonies were disrupted and oppressed by the "freedom fighters" of her arch-nastiness, self crowned princess Leia. (Hoth was a tropical paradise before its ozone layer was "liberated".) You have been the victims of an elaborate and continued propaganda campaign to discredit The Empire - the true source of Good in Our Galaxy. Now, at great risk, the whole truth can at last be {{{^D|&&%~~_^A^H/:[{[+ ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 14-FEB "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #41 *** EOOH *** Date: 14 FEB 1981 1043-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #41 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Saturday, 14 Feb 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 41 Today's Topics: SF Books - King David's Spaceship & Here's the Plot What's the Title, Physics Tomorrow - Space Drives & Supergravity, Star Wars - Nature of the Force ---------------------------------------------------------------------- POURNE@MIT-MC 02/14/81 05:06:10 Re: A new flap may come about from this, but I do need some help. KING DAVID'S SPACESHIP (containing Spaceship for the King and its sequel) is out in hardbound from Simon and Schuster. It seems to be unobtainable in Los Angeles. Is that the case in other cities? Should we seriously reconsider our policy of loyalty to that publisher? Any information on distribution would be helpful, since it's just so hard to find out. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Feb 1981 16:51:00-PST From: ihnss!hobs at Berkeley Subject: SF Books - Here's the Plot What's the Title Many years ago (early '60s), I read a book, evidently part of a series for juveniles, called '(Hero's Name) and the B-70'. The plot (I guess I have to call it that, for want of a better name) dealt with an attempt to sabotage the B-70 bomber. The hero, a major in the Air Force, is sent by Air Force Intelli- gence to Edwards AFB to stop the dastardly scheme. He gets onto a plane by being snuck into the cockpit of a civilian airliner (the means of choice for military spies--who are, incidently, qualified pilots -- to get from Washington DC to California). The plane is purposefully held on the ground so that he can do this in topmost secrecy (small child in airport: "Mama, look at that strange man sneaking onto that plane, didn't he buy a ticket?"). His sidekick, a captain, seemingly chosen for lack of brains, is already at Edwards getting things ready for our hero. This dumkopf goes into a cafe outside the base, where a waitress (one of the villainous spies) engages him in conversation, and mentions that she would be interested in knowing the whereabouts of the hero. Captain Klutz does not come right out and say "He is coming here to look into the sabotage plot against the B-70", but drops her a big enough hint that she feels justified in thinking so. (This man is also an Intelligence officer, and knows full well that the major's coming is a closely guarded secret.) Anyway, after a long bit, the act of sabotage is established, but not the precise details of exactly what was sabotaged. So what do Major Mishap and Captain Klutz do to discover the extent of the sabotage? Why they take the plane up for a flight. While they are flying, the mechanic who committed the scoundrelly act confesses (he is being questioned at the time of takeoff), and fortunately, the damage can be fixed in mid-air (I forget just what it was, but, it made a safe landing impossible). Can someone out there tell me the name of this mindless piece of drivel? My wife refuses to believe that a book this bad really exists. John Hobson Bell Labs (ihnss!hobs) ------------------------------ Date: 13 Feb 1981 15:32:30-PST From: E.jeffc at Berkeley Subject: FTL drives The Dean Drive, I believe, is supposed to be a device which is able to move without using the action/reaction principle. I'd be willing to bet that if placed in a friction-less free-fall environment, it will do nothing more than vibrate a bit. As for FTL drives, the one example of an "inertialess" drive is that used in the Lensman series. The theory is that if you have no inertia, then your velocity is determined by the interaction between your thrust and the friction of the interstellar medium, which usually permitted speeds up to 60 light-years/hour. When the drive was turned off, you reverted to your previous speed and direction. While there were no relativistic effects with the drive on, having no inertia did produce a kind of sickness which you eventually got use to. Luxury ships had artificial inertia as well as artificial gravity. This last point is a flaw in the reasoning behind the drive, in my opinion. Aside from the fact that matter couldn't exist as we know it in such an environment, there is also the principle of relativity to be dealt with. In other words, it should not be possible to tell whether the ship was inertialess, or if the universe was. In other words, following Mach's principle, the interior of the ship should posses a local inertia based upon the mass contained inside the drive field. Since the mass of the ship would be very large when compared to that of any object inside that would move, a passenger would not be able to tell whether the drive was on or not. Another problem was how did the thrust from the engines leave the field, and what would any momentum the thrust would have mean when it returned to the world of inertia? I'm afraid that something very much like a reactionless drive would be needed to make inertia- lessness worthwhile. Speaking about FTL drives in general, there seems to be a fundamental problem which involves Relativity. The transfer of information at FTL velocities can result in time travel paradoxes when the transfer of information occurs between moving objects. The problem lies in the different frames of references involved, and the impossibility of determining "which is the right one". It seems that the greater the velocity between two objects, the slower the information must be transmitted to avoid a paradox. If the two objects were stationary with respect to each other, then the FTL velocity can be increased to infinity. While this does not rule out FTL travel or communication, it does say that how much faster than light one can go is based upon the relative velocities involved, and physics today knows nothing about a form of radiation that can only be received if you are travelling slow enough. Of course, if the information were to be sent at the speed of light, then no matter what the velocities involved are, it can always be received, but what use is that? Perhaps tachyons are the mysterious particles which will make FTL a fact of life. ------------------------------ Date: 13 February 1981 1057-EST (Friday) From: R.Kamesh Subject: Grains of salt If you take a grain of salt with a theory of supergravity leading to antigravity, will the grain go up or will it go down very fast? ------------------------------ Date: 11 Feb 1981 1717-PST (Wednesday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: Nature of the Force (NOT a Spoiler) Hmmm. This discussion about "the true nature of the Force" is beginning to resemble the old theological meanderings about "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" There's no real point to this statement -- just an observation. --Lauren-- ------------------------------ DUFFEY@MIT-AI 02/14/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following 2 messages are the last messages in this digest. They offer further arguments on the nature of the force and the Star Wars universe. People who are not familiar with the Star Wars series may not wish to read any further. ----------------------------- Date: 10 Feb 1981 17:30:49 EST From: Ward Harriman Subject: (I just had to put in my two cents, ) of FORCE. I was always under the impression that the Force was a natural phenomena which re-enforced the will of those tuned to it. In my view the difference between 'light' and 'dark' was only a matter of approach. The final goal was to assert one's will strongly enough (and correctly enough) that the Force would provide what-ever it is the Force provides. Since the Force is a mindless thing it takes on the nature of the will of the user. The 'dark' side of the Force comes about only because the will of the user is 'dark'. The 'dark' side of the Force is seductive because results are more quickly gained. This stems from the fact that it is easier for we mere mortals to think 'dark' thoughts more intensely that 'light' (?) ones. In short, the use of the Force dictates it's nature. If it is used for good it is considered 'light'; if used for evil it is considered 'dark'. The Force has no 'light' or 'dark' side, it only appears so because the people using it have divergent goals in using it. As an aside, we never really hear Vader's side of the story. Perhaps we are totally mistaken simply because we've been listening to Yoda & OB1. After all, the Jedi have gotten good press lately. esh P.S. The above must be the case since a natural force such as EM or Grav. Clearly can't be good or evil, after all, it just isn't what GOD had in mind! ------------------------------ Date: 14 February 1981 00:27 est From: SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-Multics (SAS at SAI-Prime) Subject: ragnorak and the Jedi Remember who won/will win at Ragnorak. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 16-FEB "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #42 *** EOOH *** Date: 16 FEB 1981 0711-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #42 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Monday, 16 Feb 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 42 Today's Topics: Administrivia - Hardware problems and SFL, SF Books - Budrys' column & Rejuvenation SF & King David's Spaceship, What happens at a Con? - Aquacon, SF Events - Space Shuttle Tour, Star Wars - Nature of the Force ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 Feb 1981 0220-EST From: The Moderator Subject: Administrivia - Hardware problems and SFL Normally, I use two of our machines to distribute SF-LOVERS and the other discussion lists which I maintain. However, due to hardware problems, I only have one machine available to me at the moment. This effectively reduces the maximum size of digest that can be transmitted without difficulties. Therefore, I will be targeting the SFL digest for a maximum size of 8-10K chars, instead of the customary 14-16 chars for the next few days. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Feb 1981 0936-PST From: Stuart McLure Cracraft Subject: Budrys reviews A SCIENCE FICTION column By Algis Budrys (c) 1981 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service) This time we have the work of masters. These are all books not only to buy unstintingly but to settle down with and live in. A master is somebody who can do something nobody else can do, and do it superbly. A master may be crazy, but if he hands you a tin rose, be sure the genuine perfume will be there. A master may be demonstrably limited as a writer, but his idiosyncrasies are stunning. Every so often, a book comes along that is like a conversation in a dream; profound, apt, fading rapidly from conscious memory, utter nonsense if examined under more alert conditions. But all the day is pervaded by the feeling of having been exposed to great perceptions. That brings us to "VALIS," Philip K. Dick's first new novel in four years (Bantam original paperback, $2.25). During the 1970s, Dick said in a recent interview, his totally screwed-up life was taken over by an omniscient voice in his head. It told him to fire his agent and taught him how to collect overdue royalties. It correctly diagnosed a hidden and potentially fatal congenital defect in his child. It gave him all-encompassing insight on the true nature of reality and the various avatars of the Messiah, and may have been God. Or it might have been a Vast Active Living Intelligence System (VALIS). This is the culmination of 30 years of a highly literate writer's career. Over the past 20 years, Dick has built a major reputation here and abroad with his novels of trans- mogrified reality. So much so that for a while in the 1960s many were convinced he was an acidhead. Not so, says Dick - it was amphetamines, but in any case his fictions were fictions; controlled constructs. "VALIS," on the other hand, is the semifictionalized documentary of his profound experience. Featuring as protagonists both Dick and an alter ego named Horselover Fat (curbstone etymology: Philohippos from the Greek, Dick from the German), it may well sweep the campuses in the wake of Robert Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land" and Wilson's and Shea's "Illuminatus" trilogy. Damon Knight's "The World and Thorinn" (Berkley, $12.95) is the first novel in 16 years from one of SF's premier short- story writers, its pioneering literary critic, and proprietor of a long, various and distinguished career. His past novels have frequently been very interesting; none have been first- rate. This one is excellent. In the very far future, Earth has had to move away from its exploding sun. It has been enclosed in an energy- conserving shell and set in motion toward the far stars. But over the millennia of that journey its people have forgotten their history. For almost all their races and tribes, there is no sense of journeying or of stars. Young Thorinn - naive, crippled, tenacious - is forced by circumstances to wander through its maze of pocket cultures and through the central labyrinths left when the forgotten engineers mined the core to make the shell. As usual with a Knight novel, every one of the central ideas is a known SF staple - the slow "starship," the bioen- gineered flora and fauna, the nearly sentient ancient machines, the picaresque wanderjahr of the seeking protagonist. But the details - ah, the detail and the ramifications, the vignetted glimpses of human ways to live that never were, but might be - that's vintage Knight. Joe Haldeman, award-winning writer, astronomer and bon vivant, was born in 1943. He writes clean, journalistic prose and in other ways as well uses approaches reminiscent of those employed by Frederik Pohl (b. 1919). What Haldeman shares with the Robert A. Heinlein of the early 1940s is a perfectly convincing grasp of realpolitik. In many ways, then, he has classical traits. But he's also someone who matured - at the Army's expense and at his own - in Vietnam, and that shows in various ways. In "Worlds" (Viking, $12.950), he details the revolution that coincides with the breakup of the 22-century economic impasses between Earth and the varied spaceborne societies living in artificial satellites around it. There are some echoes of Heinlein's "The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress," but this ultimately apocalyptic book is entirely Haldeman's own. It's permeated by his notable charity toward human foible and his acceptance that the human condition can never be fully explained. It leaves the reader with the feeling that Haldeman is uncommonly wise as well as uncommonly talented. ------------------------------ Date: 16 February 1981 02:20-EST From: Frank J. Wancho Subject: Rejuvenation in SF After RH's last two novels, not the current one, "Time Enough for Love" and "I Will Fear No Evil", both of which contain transplants of one sort or another to keep the heroes going, there is Justin Leiber's "Beyond Rejection". This novel has a society in which it is possible to periodically get a mind tape made and should anything happen to your physical body and a suitable donor comes along, the tape is played back into the wiped donor's brain. The story begins with our hero finding himself in the body of a female and how the adjustment is made to permit him (err her) to get past the rejection stage... any more than that would constitute a spoiler. --Frank ------------------------------ Date: 14 Feb 1981 2316-PST From: Jim McGrath Subject: King David's Spaceship In the Palo Alto - Stanford area, FUTURE FANTASY has run out of this book as well. They are now reordering, but they are unsure when their stocks will be full once more. Can other people on the NET report from their local areas for Jerry? I remember we had similar problems with DRAGON'S EGG when it came out in hardcover. Perhaps reports from us to Jerry and Bob are useful to them in confronting publishers with (incomplete, inaccurate, out of date) information? If so then we all win if our efforts can help keep the books available. Jim ------------------------------ RVS@MIT-AI 02/15/81 06:49:24 Re: Aquacon I just got back from Aquacon a few hours ago. I would have stayed longer, as there were still good films to be seen, except that there is a problem with having a con at the Disneyland hotel: the hotel is definitely unmellow. Apparently because of an incident Thursday night with a minor getting drunk and security finding out, tonight (Saturday evening) security was cracking down on parties. In the con suite itself, the people running the con party actually were carding people because if security were to walk in and find minors drinking, the people owning the room would be "escorted out of the hotel, bags and all". They were even tougher on parties where substances other than alcohol were being consumed. One security guard, when hassling people at one of these parties, misrepre- sented himself as a real police officer, told one guy he was under arrest, searched him, and confiscated his baggie of substance. I guess they don't mind illegal activities, as long as they are the ones committing them. All in all, I would say that the Disneyland hotel is not a good place for a con, and will probably not be wanting any more cons anyway. After all, they have a wholesome image to protect. -Sam ------------------------------ Date: 15 Feb 1981 2148-PST From: Alan R. Katz Subject: See the Space Shuttle mockup OASIS presents: SEE THE SPACE SHUTTLE MOCKUP The next meeting of OASIS will take place at Rockwell International in Downey and will feature Anita Gale of Rockwell speaking on the Shuttle. After the talk, there will be a tour of the full scale Shuttle mockup there. Details: Saturday, Feb. 28 at 7:00 p.m. at Rockwell International, DEI room (enter plant at gate 53 from Stewart and Gray Rd. or Bellflower Blvd (in Downey)) This program is free and open to the public. ------------------------------ DUFFEY@MIT-AI 02/16/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last message in this digest. It offers another view on the nature of the force and the Star Wars universe. People who are not familiar with the Star Wars series may not wish to read any further. ----------------------------- Date: 11 Feb 1981 0851-EST From: LLOYD at MIT-DMS (Brian P. Lloyd) Subject: The Nature of the Force In actuality the Dark Side is really molasses while the "Good Side" is honey. Have you ever noticed that molasses smells faintly of sulphur, and sulphur (brimstone), as everyone knows, is associated with hell. Can anyone deny that hell is bad? Therefore, molasses is the "Dark Side" of the force. If anyone wants anything else explained, just drop me a note. I studied at the hand of Velokovski (SP? doesn't matter; briliant people like me don't need to bother with mundane things like spelling or grammer). Condescendingly, Brian Lloyd ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 17-FEB "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #43 *** EOOH *** Date: 17 FEB 1981 0751-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #43 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Tuesday, 17 Feb 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 43 Today's Topics: SF Books - Dracula Tape, SF Music - Massteria Filksongs, SF TV - Dr. Who, Future - Cryonics Escape & Telephone Numbers, Physics Tomorrow - Space Drives, Star Wars - Nature of the Force ---------------------------------------------------------------------- FAUST@MIT-ML 02/16/81 15:17:51 Re: saberhagen While discussing the works of Saberhagen, let us not forget "The Dracula Tape". This is the story of Dracula told from his own perspective. In it we get, AT LAST, the TRUE story of what occurred. In this version, Drac is simply a fun loving type of guy who happens to like women (well, what is so bad about that?) He is "liberating" these women from the toils of mortal life and is allowing them to enjoy immortality. Von Helsing, in this acCount, is a megalomaniac who wishes to force all others to live by his own beliefs. A dictatorial old man embittered by his own mortality and imminent death. Now I ask Ya, who's a fellow to believe? Happy Reading, Greg ------------------------------ Date: 12 Feb 1981 at 2014-CST From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 ^^^^^^^^ NEW MOSTLY-MEDIA-ORIENTED (ESP. SW) FILKSONG BOOK ^^^^^^^^ MASSTERIA! Star Wars and Other Filksongs Presented by the L.A. Filkharmonics Available from: Meg Garrett, 910 W. Rosewood Ct. Ontario, CA 91762 Primarily SW related, with some funny, like "Bantha Herds in the Sand (A Tusken Raider's Lament)" , which starts out-- "As I looked out across the ridge one hot and dusty day I saw a herd of banthas come a-trampling my way I saw the dust a-flying and I smelled them from afar I shook my head and staggered to... Mos Eisley's nearest bar. CHORUS: Stampeding here Stampeding there Bantha chips everywhere." or somber, like "The Force is With Them" , with verses for Obi-Wan, Luke, and Leia, e.g., "How many years must an old man wait before his dreams come true? And how many fears must he hide in his heart before his hope can break through? Yes, and how long to open a young man's eyes to see with a vision that's new? The answer, of course, lies hidden in the Force The answer lies hidden in the Force." Of the total of 39 songs, the non-SW ones range extremely widely, with at least one for everything from BS Galactica thru Sesame St. to Dr Who. The only non-media one pertains to DARKOVER*. Only lyrics are given, along with the names of the borrowed melodies they are to be sung to. Most of the latter are fairly familiar (but can anybody identify "Farewell to Carlingsford"?) Since I am dependent on 'sheet music' and chording supplied by others, this leaves the collection much less useful to me than the major filk collections, but there are \more/ to-me tempting lyrics in it than in the big collections. ....... * I'm a bit dubious about the beginning of that Darkover lyric, "The Free Amazon's Song"-- "The great wars are raging, My brothers go to fight. I want to go with them, You say that's not right." Off hand, I can't recall any Free Amazon whose motivation was of this nature, i.e., just to 'go fight a war'. Can anyone cite a instance? Even tho it hasn't happened yet (that we know of) I CAN envision it within the Dorsai culture, but not Darkoveran. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Feb 1981 1021-PST From: URBAN at RAND-AI Subject: Forthcoming flicks At Aquacon, there were three presentations for forthcoming motion pictures. The first was from Lucasfilms, for Lucas & Spielberg's high-budget B picture, "Raiders of the Lost Ark." Looks like another exciting boo-the-villain-cheer-the-hero film with Harrison Ford as the archaeologist/adventurer hero. Fantasy elements are promised at the end of the film when the lost Ark of the Covenant is finally discovered. It is set to open on June 19th. The second presentation was on the most heavily merchandised fantasy film to date, Ray Harryhausen's "Clash of the Titans." Not for scholars of mythology nor lovers of high drama, it does promise to have a stronger story line and better cast than the previous low-budget Harryhausen flicks. It's vaguely based on Perseus and Andromeda. With Sir Lawrence Olivier as Zeus. It opens on June 19th (sound familiar?). The third presentation was on "Superman II", and was pretty similar to the one Craig Miller gave at Noreascon. Of course, by now the film has already opened in Britain and Australia, and you can read reviews from those countries to find out what's what (anyone on SFL across the Water want to supply one?). Probably better than its predecessor. It opens in the US on, uh, June 19th. It was pointed out that in larger cities the possibility exists of all three opening in one of the multiple-theatre complexes, allowing one long continuous line of fans shifting from one theatre to the next to the next... Anyway, I guess SFL will start generating a lot of traffic on June 19th or thereabouts. Mike ------------------------------ Date: 13 Feb 1981 16:51:00-PST From: ihnss!hobs at Berkeley Several things: 1. The PBS station here in Chicago (WTTW, channel 11) shows Dr. Who on Sunday nights at 11:00. It used to show them Monday through Friday at 10:30, but gave that up in favor of Dick Cavett. 2. Some time ago, the head of a company promoting Cryonics (freeze you now so that you can be revived in the future), was quoted as being against future-dystopia sf. The one thing that I have trouble understanding is why would the people of the future want to revive those frozen now? The only stories I can recall dealing with the question have (a) a woman revived by the social history department of a university so that the can get first-hand knowledge of the 20th century American middle class or (b) they wanted someone to pilot an exploratory space ship with the chance of returning to Earth approaching zero as a limit. Other than that -- historical inquiry and/or expendable labor -- I do not know why people (say) 200 years in the future would want to revive those from the past. Can you imagine someone from 1781 trying to make a useful contribution to today's society? As I recall from The Age of the Pussyfoot, one of the protagonist's chief problems was that he could not properly adjust to the changed conditions in the future. 3. Six months ago, I talked to a man from Bell Labs who is working on the project to give everyone a personal telephone number (one in which the number is tied to the person, not the phone). He told me that it probably will come, but not to hold your breath waiting for it. What happens if you fail to let the central office know where you are, and the person who answers the phone says "I don't know him, and I don't know where he can be reached" is one of the principal problems. Here at BTL in Illinois, there is a department working on an automated answering service, but don't hold your breath for that one either. (Actually, protests from answering services to the FCC is the chief problem with this one.) I had a comment on the Storm Troopers in SW and TESB, but it would probably be relegated to the Spoiler section, and this thing has gone on long enough anyway, so I will leave it to some other time. John Hobson Bell Labs (ihnss!hobs) ------------------------------ Date: 16 Feb 1981 1315-EST From: G.Nessus at MIT-EECS (Doug Alan) Subject: Dean Drive Several years ago there was an article in Analog about the Dean Drive and other pseudo-reactionless drives. All of them would obviously not work. Two of them I can still remember. One is a space ship with a giant sledge hammer and anvil inside. The hammer slams against the anvil to make the ship go forward. Then the hammer is raised up by gears and slams against the anvil again. This might perhaps produce motion in a boat in water, because a boat has less forward resistance than backwards resistance, but in a space ship it will do nothing but cause the ship to wobble - unless the ship is wedge-shaped and in VERY dusty space. The other one I can remember is a round ship that spins to get obtain a large 'centrifugal force'. A large mass in the ship is manipulated so that it always remains in the same place. In this manner, all the 'centrifugal force' of this mass will, according to the designer, be oriented in one direction, pushing the ship in that direction. Of course the designer didn't seem to realize that since the large mass always remains in the same place, it isn't spinning and isn't subject to centrifugal force. Another case of some silly engineer forgetting that fictitious forces are named 'fictitious' for a reason! Conservatively (at least of momentum), Doug Alan ------------------------------ DUFFEY@MIT-AI 02/16/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last message in this digest. It offers another view on the nature of the force and the Star Wars universe. People who are not familiar with the Star Wars series may not wish to read any further. ----------------------------- Date: 16 Feb 1981 03:03:41-PST From: decvax!duke!unc!bch at Berkeley Subject: Religion, Magic and the two sides of The Force Not wanting to add too much clutter to what has already become a very cluttered argument -- having been a Sociologist in a former life I recall that the dividing line between magic (and magicians) and religion (and its practitioners) was that in magic, the magician became the operating agent using his powers as an extension of his personality. In religion, on the other hand, the priest (or whatever) was an agent through which the higher power worked. It strikes me that this could be used to differentiate the "dark side" of the Force, i.e. Darth Vader turning this power to his own ends, and the "good side" i.e. Luke being encouraged to feel and become in tune. While there is evidence for both sides in the film, it is a though... Byron Howes University of North Carolina ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 18-FEB "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #44 *** EOOH *** Date: 18 FEB 1981 0719-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #44 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Wednesday, 18 Feb 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 44 Today's Topics: SF Events - SFL Tshirts, SF Books - Quote Query, Future - Cryonics Escape & Telephone Numbers, Physics Tomorrow - Space Drives, Physics Today - Things that go Bump, Star Wars - Nature of the Force, Star Trek - The Computer ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 17 Feb 1981 11:24 PST From: SFL-TShirtS at MIT-AI Sender: Brodie at PARC-MAXC Subject: SF-Lovers T-shirts Yes, it's true: the official SF-Lovers T-Shirts are on the way. They are colorful, 100% cotton heavyweight shirts depicting the lovable SF-L mascot sitting pensively at his terminal and signed by the artist (our own RODOF at USC-ECL). The shirts will be available in Men's sizes S-M-L-XL. If you would like to have one (or two, or three ... everyone needs a change of clothes), then please send a message to SFL-TShirtS@MIT-AI for information on how to obtain them. Richard Brodie ------------------------------ TLD@MIT-MC 02/17/81 22:09:58 Re: Quotation source request. I'm not sure that SF-LOVERS is the correct place for me to pose this question, but I can't think of an alternative. What I am looking for is the source for this quotation: "We all have our heads in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." That may not be an exact quotation, and if not I hope that someone can correct it. -Tom- ------------------------------ Date: 17 Feb 1981 0918-PST From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE Subject: re: corpsicles Sure people from 1781 would have something to contribute to today's world. Benjamin Franklin might not make it as an engineer (although we do still use his stove and his lightning rods), but he was an excellent businessman and newspaper editor, professions where native wit counts for a lot. Just because technical careers require a lot of up to the minute knowledge doesn't mean that they all do. Ultimately, a future society might decide that it was cheaper to revive these people than it was to keep them frozen, and more humanitarian than letting them melt. Renting a safe deposit box the size of a person would cost a couple of hundred dollars a year, and that's without liquid nitrogen (though with guards). ------------------------------ Date: 17 Feb 1981 1935-PST From: Craig Milo Rogers Subject: The Past, Here Today I can't recall any story lines dealing with why a society would revive the frozen dead, other than the two mentioned in SFL. However, I speculate that there might be a substantial economic incentive towards reviving corpsicles as "craftsper- sons". The resulting lifestyle might not be quite what the freezees had in mind, though. Anyone for old-fashioned, hand- crafted computer programs? Craig Milo Rogers ------------------------------ Date: 17 Feb 1981 1455-PST (Tuesday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: Bell System calling services In a recent digest, a Bell Labs employee mentioned the Bell System "answering service" under development. For anyone interested in this and other services which are part of "advanced calling" services under development by BTL, I recommend checking the HUMAN-NETS archives of some time ago, where I discussed a number of these services, and some of their potential problems, in considerable detail. --Lauren-- [ Note: At the moment MIT-AI is down one disk drive due to hardware problems. As a result only the last 40 issues of HUMAN-NETS are available for on-line reference. Inquiries about the telephone service material or about the HUMAN-NETS list may be addressed to HUMAN-NETS-REQUEST@MIT-AI. -- RDD ] ------------------------------ Date: 17 Feb 1981 1050-PST From: William Gropp Subject: Dean Drives I would like to mention another fact that is overlooked in the Analog article on Dean Drives. The speed of sound is finite. This explains the behavior of the ejection seats mentioned in the article, as well as some of their experi- mental devices. That is, they assumed that they had rigid bodies when, in fact, their equipment was deforming under extreme stress. Bill Gropp ------------------------------ Date: 17 February 1981 17:48 cst From: VaughanW at HI-Multics (Bill Vaughan) Subject: extinction of the dinosaurs There has been a lot of speculation lately that the dinosaurs were killed off by the collision of an asteroid with Earth. The proposed mechanism goes something like this: Asteroid hits Earth, raising lots of dust. Dust blocks out sun. Plants can't photosynthesize and eventually croak. Herbivores starve to death. Finally carnivores run out of dead herbivores to eat. >>finis<< Maybe 10 (!!!) years later, dust falls out of strato- sphere, letting light back in. Plant seeds germinate; fungi, of course, have been OK right along. A few wee beasts (proto-mammals etc) come out of hiding and !! rule the world !!. Neat theory. For an SF lover, it seems stale - outdated - maybe even fulla ****. Why? Oddly enough, for the same reasons that a lot of >>reputable scientists<< don't believe it. There's strong evidence for the asteroid strike - iridium of extraterrestrial origin in the right geological strata. But there's no evidence for the huge amounts of dust that the theory supposes. Remember, this is enough dust to reduce inci- dent sunlight by two or more orders of magnitude - and that's just the particles that managed to stay in the stratosphere for ten years. But how about all the tropospheric fallout? If there were enough dust in the stratosphere to satisfy the theory, we wouldn't be wondering why the dinos died - they'd all be encased in asteroidal dust up to their armpits! There's also a problem with latitude effects. Without sunlight, you'd expect things to die off more quickly at the poles than in the tropics - but that seems to be the opposite of what happened. But now we come to the fun part. SF has already explored this problem. Most neatly in Lucifer's Hammer - but also in a very nice fact article in ANALOG of which I can remember neither the month nor the year nor the author - but it was before Lucifer's Hammer was published. Three out of four asteroid strikes land in the water, not on land. A water strike has vastly different effects than a land strike. There's a lot less rock dust in the atmosphere. And there's a whole lot more energy input to the ecosphere. A land strike forms a fireball that sits on Earth, sticks out \way/ into space, and radiates most of its energy to the cosmos. A water strike boils a lot of sea water. This water stays in the atmosphere. So does its heat of vaporization. What doesn't get boiled gets heated. The sea is a humungous energy sink. As it quenches the fireball, it soaks up a lot of energy. The ice caps are contiguous with the sea, and soak up a lot more energy by melting. So most of the energy of a sea strike stays on Earth. But that means the Earth's average temperature rises. How much? I don't know how to calculate it, but I bet some SF-LOVER does! Of course, there's more rise at the tropics than at the poles - ice stays the same temperature until it's >all< melted. What's more susceptible to heatstroke, big animals or small ones? Small animals have to eat like mad just to keep their body heat up, but big guys need all kinds of ways to get rid of heat - from the elephant's ears to humans' sweating and dogs' panting. And even if the dinos were warm-blooded (as many believe), it's unlikely that their heat-regulation mechanism was better than that of a platypus - which isn't very good. So the big animals die of heatstroke, unless they were near the poles. How about the fish? Lots of marine species became extinct at the same time. Well, if you heat water enough, you can drive off the dissolved oxygen. Suppose many fish found it too hot to live at the surface, but couldn't breathe down where it was cool enough? This assumes that the top few feet of the ocean were heated to 120 - 140 deg F; about the same as I guess the air temp. reached. That takes a \lot/ of energy. The standard asteroid theory doesn't explain why the bigger the animal was, the more likely it was to die. Next question - does it make sense to bring this to the attention of any of the people seriously studying the subject, or do you suppose they have already thought of it and found it doesn't fly? Bill [ Bringing it to their attention of course, does not mean telling them anything about SF-LOVERS. That would be a mistake no matter what the topic was. -- RDD ] ------------------------------ Date: 17 FEB 1981 1642-EST From: DP at MIT-ML, HITCHCOCK at CCA Subject: Duct tape and the force (an Item scrawled on the Boskone graffitti sheet by Carl Zwanzig.) Duct tape is like the force. It has a light side, and a dark side, and it holds the universe together.... ------------------------------ DUFFEY@MIT-AI 02/18/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last message in this digest. It asks a question about our previous discussion of the Star Trek episode "Miri" and Star Fleet computer technology. People who are not familiar with this episode may not wish to read any further. ----------------------------- Date: 13 February 1981 1110-EST (Friday) From: Roy.Taylor at CMU-10A Subject: MIRI & the cat-brain computer As I recall the episode, Kirk et cie found a society of children left behind when their elders dabbled in bio-warfare and longevity drugs. The kiddies aged slowly but contracted some disfiguring, fatal disease on reaching puberty (who could forget the flash of Yeoman Rand's thigh?). So where was the infamous cat-brain? ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 19-FEB "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #45 *** EOOH *** Date: 19 FEB 1981 0714-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #45 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Thursday, 19 Feb 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 45 Today's Topics: SF Music - Boskone Filk Tapes, SF Books - The Dracula File & Jim Baen and ACE & The Hermes Fall, Physics Today - Things that go bump, Future - Cryonics Escape, Star Wars - Nature of the Force ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DP@MIT-ML 02/19/81 01:17:26 Re: Filk tape. I have 9 hours of filk, recorded at the Boskone performance style filk. I expect to cull this down to 1 or 2 90 min cassettes. Anyone that is interested, please drop me a note. I should have some idea of what will be on it next week. Keep filking Jeff PS. There wont be a charge, but I will expect people to provide a blank cassette, and return postage. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Feb 1981 (Wednesday) 2352-EDT From: PLATTS at WHARTON-10 (Steve Platt) Subject: Saberhagen's Dracula books ...in addition, how can we forget Saberhagen's "An Old Friend of the Family", about the Count's adventure in the mid-20'th century? ...I enjoyed all 3 ("Tape", "Holmes", and "Friend"), although I found "Tape" to be (subjectively) much longer than the others. ...Oh, "Sherlock Holmes vs. Draclua" was "edited" by Loren D. Estleman of Dexter, Michigan. (Doubleday 1978, Penguin (paper) 1979). ...after thinking about all 4 books, *Does the Count have the Force?* ------------------------------ Date: 18 FEB 1981 1437-EST From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: TDA Someone was recently asking about Jim Baen's departure from Ace and the formation of the Thomas Doherty Agency. The following is abstracted from the November 1980 SCIENCE FICTION TIMES: TD is, like Baen, a former Ace exec; the third member of the agency is Richard Gallen, a book packager. The troika has made agreements to do a series called "Jim Baen Presents" for Pinnacle Books, but their main thrust seems to be increasing the publication of trade paperbacks (for discussion of which, see SFL of last summer). The story says that Laumer's BREAKING FAULT and HOUSE OF NOVEMBER (poss. typo for THE HOUSE IN NOVEMBER, which would make it a reprint) and Harrison's Planet of No Return; there is also a Saberhagen/Zelazny collaboration at the contract-and-outline stage. Andre Norton's THE FORERUNNER and Saberhagen's WATER OF THOUGHT will be the first Pinnacle books, in May (expected; print run is guessed at 150,000). Doherty and Baen are reported to have left Ace because of a dispute over paying authors, although the new Ace SF editor, Susan Allison, says Ace is now all paid up. (The last time Ace was in major payment trouble, the result was DAW Books.) A lot of titles are listed as forthcoming. Gallen apparently specializes in assembling lines of books for publishers who are interested in genre work and don't know enough about it; he currently has romances at Pocket and Historicals at Dell. Overall, it looks like we'll get more SF at least as good as the current average --- not that that's any great recommendation, but every publisher has its ups and downs (with the exception of Manor, which is all downs). ------------------------------ KLH@MIT-AI 02/18/81 06:01:59 Re: Things that go bump There's one book that seems to have been overlooked: "The Hermes Fall" of a couple years back, by someone forgettable. Hardcover novel, similar to "Lucifer's Hammer": Object: L.H. Hermes Type: comet asteroid Hits: randomly Atlantic Ocean Wastes: West Coast etc. East Coast etc. Plot: mundane improbable Style: preachy so-so GCD: great great "GCD" is short for "Global Catastrophe Description", a measure of the vividness that the writers put into what are essentially unfamiliar or nearly incomprehensible events. (Fritz Leiber's "The Wanderer" has a very high GCD.) Anyway, I recommend skipping to the good parts where ol' Earth gets smacked, and not paying too much attention to the rest. For what it's worth, Hermes does get poked with an H-bomb, but the writer uses "human failure" (if you read it you'll see what I mean by improbable) to make sure that readers looking for the good parts aren't disappointed. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Feb 1981 0918-PST From: Tom Wadlow Subject: Dust in the Wind The article referred to on asteroid strikes was titled 'Giant Meteor Impact' and was published in ANALOG in (I believe) the late '60s. When I get within striking range of my ANALOG collection at home tonight I will look up the exact date/issue. If I am not mistaken, a massive water impact is much more dangerous than a land impact, not because of the heat it adds to the ecosystem in general but the resulting heat lossage. An impact in a large body of water vaporizes megatons of water, and that vapor raises the albedo of the planet. Thus more heat is reflected that would have been absorbed and the result is another Ice Age. If this is the case, then the dinosaurs (whose internal heat economies were greatly strained because of size, anyway) died either due to the cold or the fact that the herbivores they ate were gone since the plants that the herbivores ate died in the cold. If Alvarez' asteroid strike was a water strike (does the theory propose an impact location?) then the above probably happened. Even if the strike was land-based enough dust could have been raised to cause the same effect without burying the dinosaurs to their armpits in dust. Not too long ago (approx. 100 yrs) some volcano in the Pacific threw massive quantities of dust into the air (it may have been Krakatoa). The following year was known as 'The Year Without a Summer' because the ecosystem lost heat due to reflection. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Feb 1981 12:16:34-PST From: ARPAVAX.arnold at Berkeley Subject: Reviving frozen persons Have you people forgotten "Door Into Summer" by RH? There an individual pays a company (insurance, usually) to freeze him/her and unfreeze him/her at a specified date. The patron pays in advance for all this, of course. That's ONE way to encourage freezers to unfreeze. Ken ------------------------------ Date: 18 Feb 1981 15:03:07-PST From: ihnss!hobs at Berkeley Subject: corpsicles I would like to answer the objections of ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE about my questions regarding the revivification of corpsicles. Sure, Benjamin Franklin would have something to contribute to today's world, we can always do with polymath geniuses like him. However, we are not really talking about someone of Franklin's caliber, but Joe Blow. Many of the people who are getting themselves frozen are either of the middle class or else of the rich, and far too many of these kinds of people have merely the talent of earning money or else inheriting it. In 200 years, I expect my skills to be obsolete (do you really expect COBOL to last that long?), and I do not think that I could make a meaningful contri- bution to a society of the far future. I am glad that he (or she, as the case may be) is hopeful that a future society might decide that it was "cheaper to revive these people than it was to keep them frozen, and more humanitarian than letting them melt." I am afraid that I cannot be so sanguine about it. Craig Milo Rogers seems to agree that the cheap (unskilled/semi-skilled) labor is a reason for reviving corpsicles, however, as Jesus put it, "The poor you shall have with you always", or in other words, the cheap labor pool probably will remain. ------------------------------ DUFFEY@MIT-AI 02/14/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following 2 messages are the last messages in this digest. They consider the nature of the force and the Star Wars universe. People who are not familiar with the Star Wars series may not wish to read any further. ----------------------------- Date: 18 Feb 1981 (Wednesday) 2358-EDT From: PLATTS at WHARTON-10 (Steve Platt) Subject: Spoiler? The force vs. The Siege of Wonder I've just dragged down Mark Geston's "The Siege of Wonder" (DAW 1977) -- I forget most of the book, but it involved "magical" uses of magic vs. "scientific" uses of magic. Any attempts to apply this to the "force"? ... I'm going to reread it to see what applies, but anybody with a better memory... ------------------------------ Date: 17 Feb 1981 10:24:57-PST From: Cory.mx53 at Berkeley Subject: My two bits worth (SW Spoiler) Its finally time to get my two bits in. What if the force were inherently evil and it required that Jedi be extensively trained so that they could mold the evil force for the good of all. Andy ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 20-FEB "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #46 *** EOOH *** Date: 20 FEB 1981 0722-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #46 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Friday, 20 Feb 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 46 Today's Topics: SF Books - Quote Reply & VALIS & Dune Series & Covenant II, Physics Tomorrow - Light Barrier, Physics Today - Things that go bump, SF TV - Men into Space & Cosmos Revisited, Humor - Carrion House Gift, Star Trek - The Computer, Star Wars - Nature of the Force ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 19 Feb 1981 1237-PST From: Richard Pattis Subject: Quote Query Unquote "We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." - Oscar Wilde, Lady Windermere's Fan (1890) Act III Approx("You must be in the gutter to look at the stars.") - Tennessee Williams Rich ------------------------------ LEOR@MIT-MC 02/20/81 03:58:28 Re: VALIS by Philip K. Dick I've just finished the latest Dick mind-bender, and boy does this one do it to ya. Phil Apley recently told me that he was totally out of touch with reality for several hours after reading "UbiK" ...well, compared to VALIS, "Ubik" is light satire. If it weren't for Budrys's raving review, I'd conclude that I was being maso- chistic by liking VALIS...but then, my understanding of masochism has been changed by the book. There are some things in there that I still don't understand how Dick got away with; he just did, beautifully. Many of Dick's novels end by attributing the confusion and senselessness of the plot to drugs and hallucinations; this time, no such "waking up" is pulled out of a hat. The confusion and senselessness are here to STAY. Or are they? -leor ------------------------------ Date: 19 Feb 1981 9:33:43 EST From: Ward Harriman Subject: grab bag. I recently had a discussion with several people concerning the motives behind Dune's Bene Gesserit (sp?) testing program. Anyone out there have any pet theories (not necessarily intended by Herbert) as to why they test and whom? Also, does anyone have an idea about when the God Emperor of Dune will be released? I don't want to break down and read the Playboy condensed version. (I confess I did read the first few pages.) On a different note, is it true that The One Tree has been released in England and that there is some hold up on White Gold Wielder? (Donaldson) And a third note, does relativity say that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light or simply that nothing can accelerate through the speed of light. Does Al have anything to say about the other side? If something is travelling >c can it slow down below c? Is there a discontinuity involved with all this? esh ------------------------------ Date: 19 Feb 1981 1024-PST From: Tom Wadlow Subject: Dust in the Wind Addendum The ANALOG article was: 'Giant Meteor Impact' by J.E. Enever and it was published in the March 1966 issue (Along with a classic 'Ship That Sang' story by Anne McCaffery and some other good stuff by Vernor Vinge and Keith Laumer.) ------------------------------ Date: 19 February 1981 1635-EST (Thursday) From: Joe.Newcomer at CMU-10A Subject: Giant Meteor Impact The story "Giant Meteor Impact" by J.E. Enever was published also in: Campbell, J. W. Analog 6 (Pocket, paperback, 1969) Campbell, J. W. Analog 6 (Doubleday, hardbound, 1968) In addition, he has done a followup article in the January 1981 Analog, using the recent data from the Mercury probe to conjecture about the earthquake effects. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Feb 1981 1547-PST From: Daul at OFFICE Subject: OLD TV (MEN IN or INTO SPACE) Does anyone out there remember this series? Is there anything written about it? I would love to see a "Guide to Men In Space" (Lauren??). It would be interesting to compare the plots, to what space really turned out to be like. Does anyone know the dates of this series and how many were produced? Thanks, --Bill ------------------------------ Date: 16 Feb 1981 10:01:15-PST From: ihnss!hobs at Berkeley The following letter appeared some time ago in the Chicago Tribune: I can hardly wait for Carl Sagan's next PBS program, "This Old Cosmos." In a 13-week series, Carl takes over a run- down "worldview" and restores it in the beautiful style of Alexandrian science. In the process he rips out the tacky Christianity installed by the previous owners, hires a professional carpenter, and puts in a great modern kitchen. Jordan Scherf Evanston, IL Love, John ------------------------------ Date: 16 Feb 1981 1336-PST From: Daul at OFFICE Subject: More Products From CARRION HOUSE #60911300-P FRENCH UNDERGROUND ARMY KNIFE Seventy-two different functions in one compact pocket model -- THE KNIFE, of finest French underground steel. Unfold it bit by bit: it's a hacksaw, a double-edged hatchet, a portable wireless, even a lavatory, all in an instant! Flick the appropriate blade, and voila! You have a vegetable scraper and pineapple corer. Plus all the standard features you expect in such a knife: scissors, nail file and escargot extractor. Our newest model features a complete set of tools for wilderness survival: car jack, socket wrenches and lug nut remover. What more can we say? It's all here in one clever, compact model, featuring elegant, versatile chrome and black enamel finish. TOTAL COST: $29.95, includes 72 multi-purpose functions and accessories. SHIPPING WEIGHT: 45 lbs. #25522 HISTORIC GIRL SCOT COOKIES It's taken years to gather this remarkable collection: every Girl Scot Cookie sold in the United States since they were first introduced! Last full set sold made record price at Sotheby's. Each cookie preserved in argon, then surrounded with permanent plastic shell, mounted on genuine walnut plaque. Your full name or monogram included. ENTIRE SET (30 COOKIES): $7,7500.00. Can be financed. ================================================================ CARRION HOUSE'S World of Gifts ------------------------------ Date: 18 Feb 1981 1745-PST (Wednesday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: cat brains The "cat brain" computer was mentioned by name in the novelization of the "Miri" Trek episode. As far as I know, it was just called the "biocomp" or some such in the actual aired television version. --Lauren-- ------------------------------ DUFFEY@MIT-AI 02/20/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last message in this digest. It offers another view on the nature of the force and the Star Wars universe. People who are not familiar with the Star Wars series may not wish to read any further. ----------------------------- Date: 19 FEB 1981 1113-EST From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Inherently Evil Force That idea strikes an interesting chord: if the force is generated by the aggregation of all life, but most people aren't aware of it, that suggests it is generated very deep in the levels of the brain --- i.e., in or around the id (if you acknowledge Freud; if not, Brunner quotes a remark that "in the human brain there is a monkey riding a dog riding a lizard," which is a good description of the physical structure and might serve as an image of the psychological organization as well). What this leads to is that the force may not necessarily be evil but is likely to be chaotic (childish, if you accept the modern view of children as far from innocent beings) and that the result of getting in touch with the force, unless your mind is balanced and devoted, will be an overlay of untrammeled personal desire with no consideration either for the larger consequences or for the desires of anyone else. Note that in some ways the uses of the Force could be divided into Lawful and Chaotic rather than Good and Evil, which latter terms are not used in either film. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 21-FEB "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #47 *** EOOH *** Date: 21 FEB 1981 0641-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #47 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Saturday, 21 Feb 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 47 Today's Topics: SF TV - Men Into Space & Outer Limits, Future - Cryonics Escape, Physics Today - Things that go bump, Physics Tomorrow - Light Barrier ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Feb 1981 1622-PST (Friday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: "Men In Space" I've gotta pass on doing an episode guide for this one -- I ain't THAT old! --Lauren-- ------------------------------ Date: 21 Feb 1981 0220-EST From: The Moderator Subject: Speaking of episode guides... The revised version of Lauren's Outer Limits Episode Guide has now been set up for FTP distribution at the sites listed below. I delayed it until now so that it could be formatted by a text justifier. This will make it easier for you to read and easier for me to maintain as part of the archives. Everyone interested in reading this story should obtain the file from the site which is most convenient for them. If you cannot do so, please send mail to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@MIT-AI and I will be happy to make sure that you get a copy. Please obtain your copies in the near future however, since the files will be deleted in one week. A copy of the material will also be available upon request from the SF-LOVERS archives. Thanks go to Richard Brodie, Richard Lamson, Doug Philips, and Don Woods for providing space for the materials on their systems. Site Filename MIT-AI AI:DUFFEY;SFLVRS OLEG CMUA TEMP:OLEG.SFL[A210DP0Z] PARC-MAXC [Maxc2]SFLOVERSOLEG.TXT SU-AI TZGUID.SFL[T,DON] MIT-Multics >udd>sm>rsl>sf-lovers>outer-limits-episode-guide [Note, you can TYPE or FTP the file from SAIL without an account.] ------------------------------ Date: 20 Feb 1981 1301-PST From: Craig Milo Rogers Subject: Why Revive & The Door into Summer I excluded "The Door into Summer" (RAH) because it does not discuss Why society revives the corpsicles. TDiS simply assumes that society will revive the corpsicles for the usual legal and "humanitarian" reasons. Some attention is given to the problems a revivee faces during reentry to society, but mainly the reader is invited to maintain a suspension of disbelief and continue with the tale. In short, TDiS provides us with issues to discuss, rather than discussing the issue we've provided. Craig Milo Rogers ------------------------------ MOON@MIT-MC 02/20/81 20:47:10 Re: Asteroid-induced dinosaur extinctions The biggest problem with this theory is that there is no evidence that all the extinctions happened in the same year, and there is some evidence that the extinctions were not simultaneous. They could have happened over a period of hundreds of thousands of years consistently with the known fossil record. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Feb 1981 11:53 PST From: Reed.ES at PARC-MAXC I believe someone published a paper which showed that the FTL universe is a mathematical dual of the STL universe, and that each universe would see itself as STL and the other as FTL. Nothing was said about traversing between them however. If anyone knows more about this, please let me know. Also, relativity does not say that nothing can travel at the speed of light, only that nothing which has mass can do so. Photons are an example of massless "objects" which do travel at the speed of light. -- Larry -- ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 20 February 1981 11:45-EST From: John A. Pershing Jr. Subject: Relativity and FTL Relativity says, essentially, that INFORMATION cannot propagate from point X to point Y any faster than C. In Einstein's gedanken experiments, this was all described in terms of causality -- e.g., could something happening at [space-time] X have possibly caused the event which happened at Y? E.g., did Y know of the event X at the time that Y happened? In these terms, the propagation speed of light defines the "event horizon"; anything inside of that horizon could be causally related, anything outside of the horizon could not be causally related. Without this causality limitation, all sorts of horrible paradoxes appear (e.g., both "X causes Y" and "Y causes X"). Note that FTL travel, whether involving "accelerating" through C or suddenly bopping into "hyperspace", violates this limit on information flow. -jp ------------------------------ Date: 20 Feb 1981 1519-PST From: Alan R. Katz Subject: faster than light Indeed, relativity does not say that you cant travel faster than light, just that you can not go through it. However, if you go faster than light, your mass will be imaginary (if such a thing is possible). Objects that may do this and thus possess imagi- nary mass are called tacheons. They have 0 energy when going at infinite speeds and it takes energy to slow them down, but it would take and infinite amount of energy to slow a tacheon to the speed of light, so they could go no slower. You also have a problem with causality. It turns out that relativity shows that two observers moving at different speeds will not agree on whether or not two events happened at the same time. However, you will never have the case where they disagree on the order of events. (ie one may say two events happened at the same time, and another observer may say A happened before B, but you will never have one guy saying A happened first and another guy saying B happened first, then A). If the two observers are looking at tacheons, however, you can get two observers disagreeing on the order of events. For example, Suppose that event A is pulling the trigger on a tacheon gun (shoots tacheon bullets) and event B is the guy who gets hit by one of the bullets dropping dead. Then one observer would see A happen before B and would conclude that pulling the trigger "caused" the guy to die. However another observer would see that the guy dying "cause" the trigger to be pulled, since it happened first. So, if there are tacheons, our ideas of causality would be violated (we have never seen this happen in nature). Another point: There are tacheons in the currently accepted theory uniting the weak nuclear force and electromagnetism (the Weinberg-Salam theory). That is to say, the theory starts out with certain particles, forces, and a group of particles with imaginary mass! (tacheons??) When you turn the theory crank, you end up with the observed forces including a new neutral weak force which was discovered after the theory was presented. So maybe there are tacheons and the only way we see them is their resulting effect on the weak nuclear force. If there were no tacheons, the weak nuclear force would be strong, and the universe would be a far different place. NOTE: The currently accepted view is that the particles with imaginary mass you add to the theory are NOT real particles, but are just a mathematical tool that makes the theory come out right. You would not get many theorists to claim they may be real, this is just my speculation. Alan ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 22-FEB "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #48 *** EOOH *** Date: 22 FEB 1981 0657-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #48 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Sunday, 22 Feb 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 48 Today's Topics: SF Music - Filksong Bibliography, SF Books - FTL/Causality Novels? SF Movies - Scanners ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 17 Feb 1981 1639-PST From: Mike Leavitt Subject: Filksong bibliography HJJH's contribution of the latest filksong collection reminded me of something I had been meaning to ask here for a while. Is there a bibliography of Filksong books anywhere? On the SFL archives? If not, can anyone provide one for the rest of us? Mike ------------------------------ Date: 22 Feb 1981 0042-PST From: Jim McGrath Subject: FTL drives and Causality paradoxes Has anyone ever written an SF story in which someone DOES invent a FTL drive, and then encounters these causality paradoxes recently mentioned? It looks like all writers I know of have simply ignored this issue in assuming FTL drives. Treating it seriously in a story might lead to an interesting novel. Jim ------------------------------ Date: 21 FEB 1981 1943-EST From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: SCANNERS (the movie) This is the rough draft of a review of SCANNERS, which review may end up being published somewhere in hardcopy. I saw a private screening of the film Friday night (2/20); it seems to be scheduled for release in Boston in a week (2/27), and I'm told it's already out in New York and Los Angeles. SCANNERS is the sort of movie that people with a low tolerance for gore are likely to walk out of very early, regardless of whatever promise they see in the first few minutes, which feature people being burned and shot and one man's head literally exploding. For fans of written science fiction, this reaction is reasonable; the film is a short step from the standard Brian de Palma horror film (and seems to have borrowed and developed some of the devices that were developed for THE FURY). The one trace of a science- fictional idea is the existence of certain people who have the capacity to "scan" everyone else. The exact nature of scanning is never clearly defined; a handout describes it as psychokinesis, but it is described on screen as telepathy and shown as including both PK and psychopyrolysis (starting fires with the mind, which might be considered PK at the molecular level). Patrick McGoohan as Dr. Paul Ruth offers a definition of scanning as placing one's self in sympathy with someone else's nervous system, and this seems as good an answer as any other; scanners can alter heart rates, take data from computers, and cause nosebleeds (at least) in people they are scanning. Scanners don't get their abilities for free, however; without periodic injections of a drug ridiculously named Ephemerol, they can't stop picking up random thoughts from everyone around them. The protagonists are Dr. Ruth, mentioned above; Cameron Vale, (Stephen Lack) a derelict scanner plucked from the gutter by Ruth; Kim Obrist (Jennifer O'Neill), the leader of a group of unattached scanners, whose main role in the film seems to be following Vale around so she can witness the winner of the final battle (but for this nonentity of a role she gets top billing); and Revok (Michael Ironside), who is described as murdering every scanner who won't join his underground group. The plot? Yes, I was wondering about that too. Ruth works for Consec, a private security firm which thinks scanners would be a neat addition to their list of services; Consec's problem is that their only scanner was one of the people blown away in the first few minutes, which is why Vale is hunted down with tranquilizer darts a few minutes later. Vale is sent out with a supply of Ephemerol and orders to locate other scanners; unfortunately, every time he finds some people show up with shotguns. By the second or third time this happens the intelligent viewer begins to think "Idiot plot!" --- the scanners know it's happened before, so why do they all go into a trance without anyone standing guard? Why doesn't Consec, which seems paranoid about everything else, trace one of its own managers and found out he's meeting with someone who's working against them? Why didn't Consec notice when their chief enemy, who is shown to have a distinctive and unhidable scar, got into a top-secret meeting? In short, why didn't someone show the grain of sense that would have shortened this 100-minute film to fifteen minutes or so, thereby saving plastic and helping to reduce our dependence on foreign oil? There's a variety of additional nonsense to help exfoliate viewers, including some really disgusting gore at the end, a scene in which a computer (inside views of which suggest it was built in the mid-50's, even though the film is supposed to happen now) has its self-destruct mechanism triggered in an attempt to blast the mind of the scanner linked to it (that's right; the computer is actually supposed to destroy its innards rather than simply writing zeroes over everything) and another in which people in containment suits walk through two ordinary doors to get to unsuited office space. The plot stays thin throughout the movie (which could be shortened at least 15 minutes just by reducing some of the lingering shots of people and machines getting wasted); Revok turns out to be the only person with a coherent motive, and even he does a number of things which don't seem to have any rational or emotional reason. The director's motivation seems to be sticking it to the nasty corporations, which he fails at because the script is such a muddle; the various twists (which I can't judge because the publicity handout spoiled them all) do little to explain what all the fuss was about because the twists are themselves unconvincing. The lighting is frequently bad (not atmospheric, \bad/); camerawork is tolerable; music is overdone; sound is not quite muddy enough to hide the fact that most of the actors are either mumbling or screaming. Lack as Vale is wooden --- not weak, which would be expected in a derelict, but \wooden/, which makes the ending (and his occasional good lines) even less believable; at least he sets off the ridiculous mugging from several other members of the cast. McGoohan is particu- larly painful to watch, as he seems the classic over-the-hill star cast to bring some luster to a group of otherwise little- known actors. The film was shot in Montreal, which at least makes for some nice scenery. I'm not sure whether there is actually a group of people out there who \like/ this kind of mess; if so, it will be good news for them, at least, that the ending leaves a huge opening for one or more sequels. The one hope for the rest of us is for those sequels to keep the crew that acted in and produced this film busy enough that they can't mess up any material that shows greater initial promise. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 23-FEB "DUFFEY at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #49 *** EOOH *** Date: 23 FEB 1981 0548-EST From: DUFFEY at MIT-AI (Roger D. Duffey, II) Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #49 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Monday, 23 Feb 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 49 Today's Topics: Administrivia - Looking Backwards, Looking Forwards SF Magazines - The Twilight Zone Magazine, Physics Today - Things that go bump ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 23 February 1981 0220-EST From: The Moderator Subject: Administrivia - Looking Backwards, Looking Forwards Occasionally some of you ask me what I do. The answer has changed quite a bit over the year since I began studying these mailing lists. In February 1980 my answer was: "I am an AI grad student doing a thesis on high quality code generation techniques. In my spare time I keep two mailing lists running." In February 1981 my answer has, in effect, become: "I am studying the issues surrounding tele-publishing and how people use electronic mail. In my spare time(?) I am doing an SM thesis on high quality code generation techniques." No one anticipated the success of the broad spectrum discussion lists. In February 1980 there were two lists. They served a relatively small number of people. Today there are five such lists. The community of subscribers has grown by a full order of magnitude. Their archives contain almost 9 Megabytes of interesting material. Suggestions for other broad spectrum lists are being discussed. These lists have now grown beyond the point where only one or two people can easily deal with them. This growth and the need for me to devote full attention to my other work have forced me to reorganize the support for the broad spectrum lists which I serve as moderator. Starting tomorrow, SF-LOVERS will be supported by two people. Jim McGrath will be taking over as moderator. Don Erway and Chris Stacy will share responsibility for updating the list of subscribers and maintaining the list archives. Questions and requests should be addressed to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@MIT-AI. Messages for the digests should be addressed to SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI. Several people have already asked what I will be doing after I fulfill my current commitments. To forestall a deluge of questions, I hope to resume my study of these lists and their problems. In the past, I have acted as the moderator. In the future, I hope to act as a "publisher", translating my experience into software which will reduce the time and simplify the support these lists require. In the interim, I expect that these discussion lists will continue to prosper. I have greatly enjoyed working with all of you in making SF-LOVERS a success. I trust that you will welcome Jim, Don, and Chris with the same help and cooperation that you have always shown to me. Enjoy, Roger Duffey ------------------------------ Date: 22 February 1981 1824-EST (Sunday) From: The Twilight Zone Subject: A new Magazine Perusing through a local newsstand, I came across the Premier Issue of "Rod Serling's The Twilight Zone Magazine". It features: An introduction by Carol Sterling. Suspense/Horror Fiction (incl. a story by Ellison) An Episode Guide by Marc Scott Zicree From "Where is everybody?" upto "Third from the sun". As well as "The Original Television Script First Aired On CBS-TV October 30, 1959" (Walking Distance). Looks promising...I wonder if Marc Scott Zicree is an alias for Lauren??? -Doug ------------------------------ Date: 22 February 1981 19:26 est From: SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-Multics (SAS at SAI-Prime) Subject: The Great Dying Larger animals were not killed differentially in the great dying. By far, the largest number of species that died out were shallow water dwellers. If one looks at the statistics one sees a more or less random pattern of extinction in that a huge number of species (50% or more) were eliminated. One explanation involves population statistics and is described in Gould's Ever Since Darwin. The larger the habitat the more different species it can support. When the continents all merged around the time of the great dying (check it out - almost all of the Earth's land masses happened to ram into each other around that time) the total area of shallow sea/ continental shelf fell drastically. This resulted in a vast extinction of species in the shallower seas and along the coastal areas in order to satisfy the species count statistics. Needless to say that major changes in the formerly coastal regions resulted in changes elsewhere. You don't have to look for an asteroid, iridium levels notwithstanding, although one could assume that something funny happens when a large number of continental plates ram each other. Gould is a rather neat essayist. He works at the Harvard Museum for/of Comparative Zoology and writes for Natural History. He also wrote the introduction to the novel Clan of the Cave Bear (I just read this a few hours ago and have forgotten it already.) which is set about 35000 years ago about the time of the fall of the Neanderthals. (Personally I don't buy that books theory of the Neanderthal extinction but ....) ------------------------------ Date: 22 February 1981 19:26 est From: SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-Multics (SAS at SAI-Prime) Subject: el brain damage es del mio It just shows how little I judge a book by its cover. The book I babbled about was actually Dance of the Tiger by someone named Kurten. I personally don't agree with his theory on the Neanderthal extinction though it was a pretty neat yarn. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 24-FEB "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #50 *** EOOH *** Date: 24 FEB 1981 0723-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #50 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Tuesday, 24 Feb 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 50 Today's Topics: Administrivia - The More Things Change... SF Books - Ringworld Engineers & Here's the Plot What's the Title, SF Magazines - The Twilight Zone Magazine, SF TV - Twilight Zone Guide, Star Trek - The Computer Physics Today - Things that go bump, Physics Tomorrow - Light Barrier Star Wars - Nature of the Force ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 February 1981 0220-PST From: The New Moderator Subject: Administrivia - The More Things Change... Yesterday's issue of SF-LOVERS was a combined effort between Roger and myself. This issue is my first 'solo' attempt at putting together a digest. There will probably be times when I will commit a gross error (either in technique or in judgment) that Roger would never have let pass. I hope that these occasions will be rare, and would like to take the opportunity now to beg for mercy from the community in anticipation of them. Since I am new to the moderating game, I will be following the trail blazed by Roger as closely as possible. It is my aim that during the next few weeks you will never miss the quality that Roger instilled into SF-LOVERS while he was moderator. It was Roger's belief that the moderator should have an absolute minimum of influence over the content of the digests. I concur. I hope that any changes in the content of the digests will be due to its readership, not its moderator. Please remember that neither the SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@AI nor the SF-LOVERS@AI mailboxes have been changed. Please direct all mail concerning the digests to them. Don and Chris will be taking care of problems that involve the mailing lists or the archives, while I will concentrate on general policy and content oriented matters. To close, a technical note - many of your fellow readers do not have terminals capable of duplicating non standard characters. Although I actively attempt to catch these characters, sometimes a few will sneak through. So please do not use such characters in your messages. Also, please try to format your messages so that each line is less than 70 characters. Otherwise I will have to re format your message, losing some of the effect you may have wished to gain through unusual formatting. Happy reading. Jim ------------------------------ Date: 23 Feb 1981 1216-PST From: Mike Leavitt Subject: Many thanks, Roger As a reader/contributor to several of these lists for the last year or so, I would like to thank you most sincerely for the high quality and enthusiasm you've put into the enterprise. This is an absolutely marvelous experiment, and its working out the way it has is to a very large extent your doing. Well done, and Cheers, Mike ------------------------------ Date: 02/23/81 1240-EDT From: j.baldassini (gnc at mit-ll) Subject: Title Request I've just finished reading "The Third Wave", by Alvin Toffler (highly recommended, though non-fiction) and it reminded me of a story by Damon Knight. I first read the story in the collection "Three Novels", and it was about a character named Alvah Gustad, a citizen of New York City, who is charged with the ambassadorial job of making contact with the rural regions and bringing back some trade agreements for food. Anyone remember the title ? ------------------------------ Date: 23 Feb 1981 1031-PST From: Richard Pattis Subject: Ringworld Engineers... ...is now out and ready to be purchased by all you paperback SF enthusiasts. Parse that sentence any way you want. Rich ------------------------------ Date: 23 Feb 1981 1542-PST (Monday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: Rod Serling's TZ magazine Ahem. To quote Shultz regarding the TZ magazine: "I know nothing! NOTHING!" I don't know who this Marc Foobar character is, but I sure hope he got permission from Serling's estate before starting to use his name. One of the things that really destroyed Rod was the way he lost control of the projects that used his name (such as the last season of TZ, and all of "Night Gallery", which he basically hated.) I'll have to ask Rod about this the next time I see him. --Lauren-- ------------------------------ Date: 23 Feb 1981 1050-PST From: CSD.SPREITZER at SU-SCORE Subject: TZ guide Im not sure, but I seem to vaguely recall seeing some TZ episodes not listed in the recently distributed guide - How about the one where the dictatorship, after getting rid of libraries and other nice things, tries to get rid of the now useless librarian(played by Burgess Merideth)? Or, wasn't there one where some aliens give a bum in a bar superhuman strength, to see what he does with it?? I seem to remember one where an old couple wanted young bodies again, but could only afford the treatment for one of them. And wasn't there one about a love potient that was sold cheaply, but the antidote was expensive? ------------------------------ Date: 23 Feb 1981 1036-PST From: Tom Wadlow Subject: In the Navy.... After having spent most of Sunday aboard the USS Merrill (a Spruance-class destroyer) I thought that you might be interested to know that the radar screens and computer displays used in the CIC (Command Information Center) on Spruance-class vessels can be used to run a Star Trek program. ("Mr. Sulu, take us out of the Bay. Warp Factor Two.") ------------------------------ Date: 23 Feb 1981 1530-EST From: DAA at MIT-DMS (David A. Adler) Subject: Another theory for the dying of the Dinosaur I have also heard that there was a possibility that the dinosaurs died due to the shift of the earth's Magnetic north. From evidence of lava flows coming out on the North Atlantic Ridge, magnetic north has not always been true north. At some point in time, possibly when the dinosaurs were around, magnetic north changed from true north to true south and then later back again (or it could have changed from south to north and stayed there, I am not sure which). There is also evidence that magnetic north is due to change sometime within the next million years or so. When this happened, would it have been possible for there to be some type of radiation or anything else that might abolish all life? David Adler ------------------------------ Date: 23 Feb 1981 1818-EST From: G.Nessus at MIT-EECS (Doug Alan) Subject: Relativity Aaaactuuuuaaaaally....Relativity does not say that two observers will never disagree on the order of two events. Take two events, A and B, as seen from an arbitrary observer, where A is the event that happened first (according to the arbitrary observer). Define X(A) and X(B) to be the respective positions of the events and T(A) and T(B) to be the respective times of the events. If a light beam could NOT have traveled from X(A) to X(B) in time T(B)-T(A) then according to Relativity, there are possible observers who would say that B occurred before A. This, though, does not disrupt causality because since nothing could have been at both event A and B (unless it traveled faster than light) there could have been no interaction between the two events and neither event could have caused the other. If there could have been any interaction between the two events (i.e. if a beam of light could have traveled from X(A) to X(B) in T(B)-T(A) or less) then no observers could disagree about the order of the events. This is just a stupid, picky point that I decided to point out. (I have to put Physics 8.01 to some use.) This has no real bearing on the discussion because even including this, FTL drives and Tachyons still cause the same problems. --Doug Alan ------------------------------ JPM@SAIL 02/24/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last message in this digest. It offers another view on the nature of the force and the Star Wars universe. People who are not familiar with the Star Wars series may not wish to read any further. ------------------------------ KARIM@MIT-MC 02/23/81 09:56:30 Subject : Re: SW and The Gospel of Luke (Skywalker, not the apostle) You wanna know what the real nature of the Force is? It is,at the root,just ol' George Lucas pushing his own religion. And it's not a new one either -- ever since "biblical" time (whatever that means) people have searched for what I,after a fashion of C.S. Lewis and others, call the Life-Force religion. This religion is very "in" these days; indeed,it has always been a best-seller. It is the classic Good-vs.-Evil,Id-vs.-Superego,and (the original, methinks) Law vs. Sin Nature. It's a very powerful thing THAT HAS NO WILL. That is,it has most,if not all,of the powers of the God of Christianity, but none of the bad parts. That is,the Force can't say you're bad,or send you to Hell,or anything nasty like that. And it is very pocketable. That is, when "the sun is shining and you are feeling fit",OF COURSE there must be something Flowing through the Galatic Void (I love that phrase,"Galatic Void"; reminds me of Carl Sagan). But if you just missed your bus or things go slightly downhill during the day, why think about any God? The only place where such as dualism (as in the Force) screws up is saying what is good,and what is bad? I mean does the audience (or even the characters in the movie) have a right to say,"Good","Bad"? If the Force has no will then what makes Darth "Bad" and Luke "Good"? So what is Darth wants to rule the Universe and is selfish (something we Humans generally look down upon) -- who has the right to say,"That's Bad!" ? In A SW universe,I should think that the best thing to do would be to "look out for Number One": To hell with posterity,and everyone else. That's the consequences when you end up with no God with a will: Who is to say what's right? The key here (and old George may not now this) but,in a SW universe,when you call something "good",or "bad",you are actually judging them by a Higher standard; one that I know should come from God. After all, a man can not call a crooked line "crooked" unless he has some idea of a straight one. The whole affair is really rather silly,and not worth the time and resources I have spent typing this. But it has gone beyond interesting talk and speculation. There were a group of people out in Colorado worshipping the Force. They were calling it "The Holy Spirit". SW is the best selling film of ALL TIMES. And it's just a movie? Hoo-hah, -Karim (KARIM@MC) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 25-FEB "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #51 *** EOOH *** Date: 25 FEB 1981 0554-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #51 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Wednesday, 25 Feb 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 51 Today's Topics: SF Books - Outlands & Ringworld Engineers, SF Movies - Scanners, SF TV - Man into Space & The Twilight Zone, SF Radio - Star Wars, Physics Today - Things that go bump, Physics Tomorrow - Light Barrier ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 23 Feb 1981 (Monday) 2300-PST From: DWS at LLL-MFE Subject: Outlands I ran across the book version of the soon-to-be-released movie "Outlands" this last weekend. Not wanting to give anything away, I merely looked at the 12 or so pages of pictures in the center. On first glance, it doesn't look that bad. The plot seems to revolve around a "sheriff," (Sean Connery), who is sent out into the "Outlands" to track down dope smugglers. The wild west trans- posed to Io. The pics show several SWAT types milling around with shotguns, and Sean in a spacesuit trying to break through the wall of a dome in search of somebody who is identified as a hired killer. I can say nothing for the book, which was written by Alan Dean Foster, but the pictures are sort of nice. Anybody know when the film is supposed to be released? -- Dave Smith ------------------------------ Date: 24 Feb 1981 1906-PST From: Geoffrey C Mulligan (at The Pentagon) Subject: Another review of SCANNERS I cannot agree more with Chip Hitchcock's review of Scanners. I guess that the movie had an early release in the Washington DC area. I saw it about a month ago. The movie was a total bust. It lost me after about 20 to 30 minutes. The plot was so thin as to be non-existent. Only at the end of the movie did some sembelence of a plot beging to emerge. The special effects were very vivid, not recommended for the weak of heart. I am sure that we will see a "Scanners Re-Scanned" in the coming months. Geoff ------------------------------ Date: 24 Feb 1981 10:02:33 EST From: Ralph Muha Subject: Man Into Space As I recall, the series aired while I was in early grade school (about 1961). In Chicago, it was on opposite the Huckleberry Hound cartoon show and would cause conflicts between myself and my friends (they all wanted to see the hound). The show starred William Lundigan as Col. Ed McCauly, the stalwart leader of the NASA space program. Rocket ship footage from this show has turned in many other series' such as "The Outer Limits." One episode that comes to mind: It's Christmas Eve on the moon and the astronauts, while scanning the heavens with their radio-telescope, pick up a strange, repetitious "tinkling," clearly a message from somebody "Out There." They respond by getting out a guitar and singing "Silent Night," beaming the signal in the direction from whence the message came. Other episodes: the problems/dangers of refueling in space (one craft bangs into another and ruptures a fuel tank), cold war hijinks with the Russians (who also have a moonbase a few craters down from ours) and the inevitable love story (yes, two people necking in space suits!). Speaking of old TV shows, how many people remember "Science Fiction Theater" with Truman Bradley? One particularly good story was about a suburban couple who discover that their neighbors are time-jumping refugees from a totalitarian future. Another was a search for Inca gold which leads to the discovery of the remains of an ancient extra-terrestrial astronaut. Ralph Muha ------------------------------ LARKE@MIT-ML 02/24/81 21:31:21 Subject : Re: Men into Space and the Twilight Zone, too. Ahhh. Old, obscure televsion. "Men Into Space" I have never seen - but I still have refernces to it in my piles of television trivia-like material. According to my best source (Fantastic Films)... Men into space aired first on CBS in the fall of 1959. Colonel Ed McCauly (played by the immortal William Lundigan. Who?) whose adventures take him to the nearby space stations and outposts of what was projected to be our future space program. Said article claims the show dealt with problems that characters might well be "expected" to deal with in space - everyday situations like a spacesuited astronaut being caught between two closing sections of a space station being assembled. How do you get him out without killing him? The article compared the show as a sort of "Seahunt" in space. It gave the show high marks for realism and authenticity (for instance, the budget for the prop spacesuit came to $3152 1959 dollars) but but low marks for not being exciting. "Men Into Space" was cancelled after one season. But does it sound familiar, anyway? As for missing TZ episodes - i can spot you three out of four. The story of a bum in a bar getting superpowers from aliens is surely "Mr Dingle, the Strong", a second-season episode with Burgess Meredith as Dingle and Don Rickles as , of course, a wise guy named Bragg. "The Obsolete Man" also stars Meredith, this time as a librarian judged obsolete by a totalitarian dictatorship. And I think the love potion story was probably "The Chaser", a first-season episode which my source describes like this:"A loser in the game of love purchases a special potion from a weird doctor." And now I must bow to Lauren for the forth and final "missing" episode... Cheers, Larry ------------------------------ Date: 24 Feb 1981 1609-EST From: DAA at MIT-DMS (David A. Adler) Subject: Star Wars on radio In TIME Magazine's March 2,1981 issue there is an add for SW on radio. According to the add there will be 13 episodes to be aired on National Public Radio Stations. The episodes will include the music of John Williams, sound effects from the movie, and featuring Mark Hamill (as Luke) and Anthony Daniels (as C3PO). The series will premiere in March of 1981 and for more information for times of broadcast one can call National Public Radio toll-free at (800) 424-2909. If you live in Washington call 785-5353. David Adler ------------------------------ Date: 24 FEB 1981 1840-EST From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: earth's magnetic north Is \not/ true north now! (the magnetic north pole is in north central Canada, latitude 70+; this is why the line of zero variance between magnetic north and true north runs near the Mississippi, while compass readings around Boston are 15 degrees higher than the true heading of a given vector. The information I've seen says that the field has \reversed/ (as you mentioned) several times since North and South America began moving away from the rest of the continents. This was one of the clinchers for the theory of plate tectonics; crystal orientation on the floor of the Atlantic shows regular changes appropriate to materials solidified under different magnetic fields. Also, I seem to recall that the breakup of PanGaea is guessed to have started 400 million years ago, while the dinosaurs died off much more recently (150 million years back? 75? haven't studied this in a \long/ while). ------------------------------ Date: 24 February 1981 08:10 est From: SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-Multics (SAS at SAI-Prime) Subject: Tachyons and the weak force. If I remember my particle physics none of the unified force theories involve tachyons. They involve virtual particles, very massive particles and various interesting forward and reverse time symetries, but they do not involve assuming that anything is travelling faster than light. My last reference to the unification of the weak and electromagnetic forces referred to the vector particle as the Z particle which was rather massive although nowhere nearly as massive as the proposed intermediate vector baseball which dumps in the strong force somehow. Perhaps the confusion is a result of the fact that anti-particles are actually ordinary particles moving backward in time. They still cannot travel faster than c and still must observe causality (which makes things even weirder.) ------------------------------ JPM@SAIL 02/25/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last message in this digest. It refers to Larry Niven's Known Space Series of stories, in particular Protector, Ringworld, and Ringworld Engineers. People who are not familiar with the Known Space series may not wish to read any further. ------------------------------ BGR@MIT-MC 02/22/81 03:59:06 Re: Warning: I think I've spoiled 3 Larry Niven books in 1 msg. I've just read Larry Niven's "The Ringworld Engineers", and found it interesting and fun reading, but I am bothered by a couple of apparent inconsistencies: 1) I seem to remember that an entire world of humans was transformed by Brennan to Protectors in "Protector". If so, how come Louis Wu knows so little about Protectors (especially about this entire world of them)? 2) Teela was transformed into a Protector by eating tree-of-life. Yet in "Protector", it was claimed that all females (and, in fact, female humans) were killed by consumption of tree-of-life. Anybody have explanations for this? ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 26-FEB "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #52 *** EOOH *** Date: 26 FEB 1981 0452-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #52 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Thursday, 26 Feb 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 52 Today's Topics: SF Events - SFL Tshirts, SF Books - Title Query Reply & Venus on the Half-Shell & Outlands, SF TV - Twilight Zone Guide, & Science Fiction Theater, SF Radio - Star Wars, Physics Today - Things that go bump, Spoiler - Ringworld Engineers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 25 Feb 1981 0445-PST From: The Moderator (JPM at SAIL) Subject: SF-LOVERS T-Shirt Information [Recently a few people have sent inquires about the SF-lovers T-Shirts to the mailing list. All such inquires should be directed to SFL-TShirtS@MIT-AI, NOT SF-LOVERS proper. Below is a reprint of the original message involving the T-Shirts.] Date: 17 Feb 1981 11:24 PST From: SFL-TShirtS at MIT-AI Sender: Brodie at PARC-MAXC Subject: SF-Lovers T-shirts Yes, it's true: the official SF-Lovers T-Shirts are on the way. They are colorful, 100% cotton heavyweight shirts depicting the lovable SF-L mascot sitting pensively at his terminal and signed by the artist (our own RODOF at USC-ECL). The shirts will be available in Men's sizes S-M-L-XL. If you would like to have one (or two, or three ... everyone needs a change of clothes), then please send a message to SFL-TShirtS@MIT-AI for information on how to obtain them. Richard Brodie ------------------------------ Date: 25 Feb 1981 0146-PST From: Don Woods Subject: here's the title The Damon Knight story about Alvah Gustad, New York's ambassador to the rural regions, is called "Natural State". It appears (among other places) in the collection "Rule Golden and Other Stories". -- Don. ------------------------------ Date: 25 February 1981 12:25-EST From: Steven B. Lionel Subject: Venus on the Half-Shell Kilgore Trout's "Venus on the Half-Shell" has been reissued by Dell in paperback. The blurb says "Available for the first time without lurid covers!" They look the same to me. Anyway, those of you who haven't been able to read this book by a fictional author (actually Philip Jose Farmer) can now find it at your bookstore: a bargain today at $1.75. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Feb 1981 0941-PST From: Tom Wadlow Subject: Outland Outland is supposed to be released in May 1981. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Feb 1981 0337-PST (Wednesday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: TZ guide The Twilight Zone Episode Guide, by Saul Jaffe and yours truly, lists all of the episodes mentioned in the last digest... 1) The "bum" given strength: MR. DINGLE, THE STRONG. 2) The dictatorship and the librarian: THE OBSOLETE MAN. 3) The couple who wanted young bodies: THE TRADE-INS. 4) The love potion: THE CHASER. Please contact our friendly moderator for information regarding the current online location of the Twilight Zone Episode Guide. --Lauren-- [For those of you who would like a look at the Twilight Zone Guide once again, it resides in the files AT MIT-AI AI:DUFFEY;SFLVRS TZEG AT SAIL TZGUID.SFL[T,JPM] These files will probably disappear within the week, so FTP them quickly. Remember that you can FTP from SAIL without an account. Jim] ------------------------------ Date: 25 Feb 1981 1004-EST From: PDL at MIT-DMS (P. David Lebling) Subject: "The Chaser" That Twilight Zone episode (a love potion is cheap, but the antidote is expensive) was probably based on a similar story by John Collier. Any SF-Lovers who haven't read Collier should run (not walk) to your nearest bookstore or library. He wrote many short stories, a couple of novels, and various Hollywood screenplays (including the one for "The African Queen"). His stuff is usually fantasy rather than SF, but well worth it. Dave ------------------------------ Date: 25 Feb 1981 10:22 PST From: reed.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re:SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #51 SF Theatre was one of my favorites, although I was too young to see it when it was first on. I caught mostly reruns as a kid. I even remember the episodes you mentioned, as well as a few others, like the one about the Anti-grav device. Its all pretty fuzzy. Lauren, how about an episode guide? -- Larry -- ------------------------------ Date: 25 Feb 1981 1512-PST (Wednesday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: TZ/OL confusion and "your host, Truman Bradley" I think there is some confusion here regarding Twilight Zone vs. Outer Limits episodes. My guide which was recently redistributed was for the OUTER LIMITS. The recent inquiry about "missing" episodes was discussing TWILIGHT ZONE episodes. There have been two separate online guides with which I have been associated, one for OUTER LIMITS and a completely separate one for TWILIGHT ZONE. The TWILIGHT ZONE guide, to the best of my knowledge, lists all episodes, including the so-called "missing" ones. It is not uncommon for people to confuse episodes from the two shows given the number of years since most parts of the country have seen them... --- Re: Science Fiction Theater! AH! There's a show. Our friend Truman Bradley would come out at the start of each program and do a phoney science experiment (like burning up a model plane with an infrared heat lamp, or searing a wall with an "ultrasonic" transmitter -- which looked suspiciously like a pie tin with an icepick stuck in the center of it.) Some of the episodes were very good. Some were awful. I have four episodes on videotape, including the one mentioned in a previous digest (about the refugee family from the future -- it was called: "Time Is Just a Place" -- it was a good one.) A number of fairly heavyweight stars appeared at various times, including Vincent Price. Truman used to pull off some kinda strange stunts. One week, the regular opening started as always, and ended looking at an empty chair. You then heard Truman say (in his typical fashion), "Welcome, Ladies and Gentlemen, this is your host, Truman Bradley. You cannot see me right now. Why? Because the camera is not pointed in my direction..." A strange series to say the least. A classic. --Lauren-- ------------------------------ Date: 25 Feb 1981 2055-PST From: Yeager@SUMEX-AIM Subject: Star Wars on PBS radio Star Wars begins the first of 13 weekly episodes on KQED-FM (radio) this Monday, Feb. 2nd at 6:30pm in the San Francisco Bay Area. Bill ------------------------------ Date: 24 Feb 1981 1009-PST From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE Subject: dinosaurs and magnets I too have heard about the reversal of the Earth's magnetic field. The connection with dinosaurs was that for perhaps a thousand years during the change there would be no magnetic field. No field, no Van Allen belts, and so the solar wind and cosmic rays would come sleeting straight into the atmosphere, producing higher background radiation, greater mutation rates, and maybe climatic changes. I don't know if the wind is really intense enough to do these things, or if the field would turn off rather than just drift across the equator, but it's an interesting theory. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Feb 1981 1203-PST From: FEATHER at USC-ISIF Subject: New Scientist recommendation The British publication New Scientist often has articles appropriate to the (random?) issues that arise in SF-LOVERS. E.g. N.S., 5th February 1981, pp 350-353: "Geomagnetism and climate", Dr. John Gribbin Scientists at New York's Columbia University have found convincing evidence - and an explanation - for links between changes in the Earth's magnetic field and changes in climate. Their success is in no small measure due to the tenacity of one man at the university's Lamont-Doherty Geological Observatory, Dr. Goesta Wollin. N.S., 28th August 1980, pp 654-656: "Building a time machine", Dr. John Gribbin According to the equations of classical general relativity theory, it is possible to build a time machine. "Commonsense" says this is impossible - but commonsense has been wrong before. [Makes FTL look mundane! SF fans will be pleased to note that this article references Larry Niven, and has TWO pictures of Dr. Who.] Highly recommended. Martin S. Feather ------------------------------ Date: 25 Feb 1981 14:16:40-PST From: CSVAX.feldman at Berkeley Subject: Protector vs. Ringworld Engineers (Spoiler!) Regarding BGR@MIT-MC's questions: 1) The book "Protector" doesn't say anything about what happens to the protectors on Home after the takeover, but it seems likely to me that they went ahead and defeated the Pak invasion force and kept themselves hidden from the lesser beings in Known Space, for their own secret reasons. Since they had been humans, it would (with their advanced minds) be a simple thing to do, even if it involved altering the memory of Alice Jordan, the only other human who even knew that Brennan hadn't left the solar system the first time. 2) I couldn't find the reference about tree-of-life being toxic to females, but I didn't try too hard. Could someone point to it? If it's there, it certainly is an inconsistency. There is another point I have wondered about: It is stated in "Protector" that before Phssthpok's arrival, only the original colonizers had ever visited Earth. It is further stated that the Pak were in the habit of destroying any other sentient species they came across. So how then were the Maps of Earth, Mars, etc., put on the Ringworld, complete with samples of the native life? The species found on the Maps still exist in Known Space. Steve ------------------------------ Date: 25 Feb 1981 0410-PST From: Don Woods Subject: Re:Protector [spoiler warning] The colony on "Home", which was transformed to Protectors, took off to meet the Pak fleet, and was presumably never heard from again in human space. (This doesn't mean they're gone; remember that Brennan had kept his own existence fairly quiet, and he was just outside the solar system.) There's a nit to be picked in that Niven's future history seems to assume that nobody ever bothered to figure out what happened to Home. I suppose there might have been an investigatory expedition, but since it was likely to include someone too old for Tree-of-Life, that person would die and the expedition might conclude there was a plague infecting the entire planet. Anyhow, that's why Wu knows so little about them. I don't remember anything about females being killed by Tree-of-Life. The conversion to Protector eliminates the genetalia and other sexual characteristics, but I had the impression it worked just as well on females of the appropriate age. Can you find your reference? -- Don. ------------------------------ kwh@MIT-AI 02/25/81 22:51:37 Subject : Re: Known Space (Definitive Spoiler) :flame Niven never really explains what happens to Home (the planet which Brennan and Truesdale turned into a bunch of Protectors), but its just one of the many problems and hangups in the Protector-Ringworld-Ringworld Engineers trilogy. 1) Truesdale"s girlfriend (the goldskin), returns to Earth from Kobold, knowing more than ANYONE about Protectors. She's pregnant, and returns with a centuries old single ship. Everybody in the Belt knows that she went out looking for Vandervecken, and that she thought he was Jack Brennan, who had disappeared *centuries ago* with a singleship. Earth should know a lot about Protectors, and everybody should be able to know what she found (the signs are obvious enough. 2) Truesdale and his army of childless protectors leave Home (the planet turned Protector) with massive amounts of Tree of Life virus in the air. Even though the Pak ships do wipe out parts of the planet (large masses of fake cities), some should be left. And then, as soon as Known Space gets the hyperdrive, whats to keep some random adventurer from going off to see why the historical Home colony failed? With the hyperdrive and distances as they were, it would take less than a week to get there and back- You could do it on a vacation! 3) Were ALL the Protectors in Truesdale"s army killed? That seems like a really far off chance. We know that the two Pak fleets didn't get through, so someone should have survived (excluding a Pyrrhic victory- which might be possible). There are a few other random inconsistencies and coincidences in Known Space which I may put together later, but here is a possible explanation for the above: Truesdale"s girlfriend returns to the Belt, but hides out somewhere. She struck me as a pretty intelligent woman, and she might have gotten into thinking like a Protector- And as Brennan said, the WORST thing for Earth would be for it to go fighting Pak- For her to stay underground is wise for both Earth, the Belt, and her kids. Maybe she'll pass the tale of Pak from generation to generation, but who knows? Some of Truesdale's fleet does survive, and returns to Home- Anyone coming to check things out is either destroyed or turned into a Protector. These protectors then resolve to help out mankind through Known Space. (And they're going to need it.) I was always suspicious of how we beat the Kzin- how about a super-high-tech brilliant fighter Pak team which virtually obliterated entire Kzin military centers. It might be that a good part of the human "luck" was having an invisible Protector fleet running around, helping out.... One other possibility, which I especially like, is that perhaps the Puppeters (who liked and manipulated humans) were manipulated by the Protectors (it has a twist I like). What the puppeteers did has a distinct "Protector" ring to it. Some neat other ideas: How about Bey Shaeffer(sp?) becoming a Protector? On one of his many journeys, he is paid to go and check out Home- finding guess what? The protectors could protect Home by ringing it with singularites which would drop any ship out of hyperspace (they're fairly trivial to make if you've got a gravity generator- which they have had for a LONG time). And ships coming through normal space could be easily detected. It all makes for a really nice stronghold. Well, so much for now. Lets hear from the vocal critics out there! :unflame ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 27-FEB "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #53 *** EOOH *** Date: 27 FEB 1981 0606-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #53 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Friday, 27 Feb 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 53 Today's Topics: Star Wars - SW FANAC, SF Contest - Strange Titles, SF Movies - Outlands, Physics Today - Things that go bump, Spoiler - Ringworld Engineers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 Feb 1981 at 0057-CST From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 Subject: TIDBITS FROM THE OFFICIAL SW NEWSLETTER Lucas is writing the first draft screenplay for REVENGE OF THE JEDI. No director has been set yet. Release date-- May, 1983 . SW-4: A NEW HOPE is to be re-released at 1,500 North American theatres for 2 weeks in mid-April. Novelization of RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK due on sale in April. ------------------------------ ACW@MIT-AI 02/26/81 02:56:17 Re: Contest In the spirit of F & SF, I offer the following contest. "Tomorrow, the Stars My Destination: Moon is a Harsh Mistress." Generate other SF title free-associations of this kind. --- Wechsler ------------------------------ Date: 25 Feb 1981 11:15 PST From: reed.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re:SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #51 My roommate came up with an interesting idea. We have all heard many times that nothing with mass can travel at the speed of light, and that as you add energy to mass travelling near the speed of light, that the energy is absorbed as new mass rather than increasing the speed much. Thus, the mass increases to infinity as the velocity is pushed closer to the speed of light. This has been proven by experiment. However, we have also heard that light "particles" (photons) are massless and that only massless objects can actually travel at the speed of light. Both of these explanations refer to the singularity that occurs in the relativistic equations (which perhaps imply infinite mass, not 0 mass). Now, Einstein's relationship, E=mc^2, implies that energy and matter are equivalent. Quantum mechanics states that the energy of a wave-particle of electromagnetic energy is defined by the equation E=hw, where h is Planck's constant and w is the angular frequency. (I may be wrong about the specifics of the QM equation, but there is definitely a simple relationship like this connecting the two). Therefore, one can draw an equivalence between matter in the non-lightspeed case and a wave-particle in the lightspeed case as follows: E (STL) = mc^2 = E (L) = hw or mc^2 = hw That is, mass and frequency are related by h/(c^2). In this specific sense, photons are NOT massless since they do have energy. Of course, this is akin to comparing apples and oranges, but I thought I'd throw it out anyway. Another interesting idea we came up with was "Life At the Speed of Light". If information can only propagate at the speed of light, then particles travelling at the speed of light cannot be "aware" of each other in a causal sense since all information flow happens at the same speed as the particle propagation. In this sense, there is no time at all at the speed of light. So for time travel, one merely need convert oneself to photons and convert back whenever you want, wherever you want and there is no time dilation. Of course figuring out what time it is might be a problem. For that matter, converting yourself to photons may be a bit of a problem also, but I have no doubt that Modern Science and Engineering will solve that one. -- Larry -- ------------------------------ Date: 25 Feb 1981 1609-PST From: Alan R. Katz Subject: Outlands and Tachyons Outlands: Last week I saw a trailer for Outlands. The movie looks fantastic, at least the effects are great. I don't know about the plot but the picture definitely look worth seeing. The trailer said it would be out in June. Tachyons: Sorry for the misspelling in the previous msg, its spelled Tachyon (I can spell it in mathematics, but not in english). Anyway, I meant what I said when I said there are Tachyons in the Weinberg-Salam model of weak-electromagnetic forces. This is true, IF you are willing to say that an imaginary mass particle is a Tachyon. The Higgs Boson which is put into the theory to break the symmetry is written into the Lagrangian in the same matter as an ordinary scalar particle, except that the mass squared term is the wrong sign, thus implying that it has imaginary mass. I have already pointed out that Tachyons are particles that travel faster than light which are OK by relativity IF they have imaginary mass, so there you are. It IS true that nowhere in the theory is it said that the Higgs boson is going faster than light. Indeed, it is looked on as not a physical particle, because when you are all done with the mathematical manipulations the Higgs particle dissappears (its degree of freedom associated with the massive scalar gets "eaten up" to give the W bosons a mass. Without the Higgs, you get massless W bosons which have 2 degrees of freedom, but a massive W would need 3. The reason you want the W to have mass is so that the weak force will be weak and short range, rather than strong and long range.) Heres something else to think about regarding STL and FTL universes. It is possible to show in Quantum Field theory, that half integer spin particles must be Fermi particles (obey the Fermi exclusion principle) and that integer spin particles (like photons) must be bosons. The things that go into this is causality and quantum mechanics. Either you have half integer particles being able to interact only at speeds GREATER than the speed of light which implies that they are bosons, or that they can interact only at speeds LESS than the speed of light in which case they are Fermi particles. We of course choose the later case, because we know electrons, etc. interact at less than or equal to the speed of light, and low and behold it is predicted that electrons of Fermi particles, which is true. (Thats why atoms work, if electrons were bosons, you couldn't make any atom but Hydrogen). Similarly for integer spin particles, you get that they must be Bosons, and they are. (thats why Lasers work). Now...If you have tachyons instead of ordinary particles, this connection should be reversed, so that spin 1/2 particles should be bosons, and all want to be in the same state. Spin 1 particles should be fermions and obey the Fermi exclusion principle. This is because, for tachyons, you want them to interact ONLY at speeds faster than light, not less then. Thus, if you went FTL so that all of the particles in your body were tachyons, the electrons and protons and neutrons in your body would become bosons and try to be in the same state (very messy). So, I conclude that a FTL universe and a STL universe are very different places. Maybe if you just look at what relativity says, they are symmetrical (sort of), but if you take into account Quantum field theory, the connection between spin and statistics changes and you get the tachyon electrons and protons being bosons. You would have to have Fermions to make atoms out of, so probably there could be no atoms, and no chemistry (except for Hydrogen existing) You ain't getting me into the Star Ship enterprise, unless they have their spin-statistics shield operating reliably. Alan ------------------------------ Date: 25 Feb 1981 17:17:03 EST From: Morris Keesan Subject: Effects of gravity on development I recently came across an interesting article in my mother's alumni bulletin, the University of Iowa "SPECTATOR" (Dec. 1980). It casts an interesting light on some of the speculation I've seen in various novels and stories about colonies on heavy or light gravity worlds (e.g. the Niven "Known Space" series ). The article follows: GRAVITY AFFECTS GROWTH ------------------------------------------------------------------- For more than 25 years at Iowa, Charles Wunder, professor of physiology and biophysics, has asked the question, "How would we have come out if we had evolved in a different gravity?" Wunder said, "Gravity is about the only thing we've had on earth of constancy, and I feel it probably has been kind of a reference for our genetic code. So if you take the same genetic code and put it in a different gravity, animals should come out differently. "I'm particularly interested in how gravity affects the development of the force-supporting ability of animals." Wunder creates high gravity by placing animals' cages at the outside end of the seven-foot arms of a centrifuge. The faster the arms spin, the greater the force pulling the animals toward the bottoms of their cages. Wunder said, "The centrifugal field is indistinguishable from a gravitational field." At high gravitational levels, a hamster can still walk in its cage, but its movements are lumbering and reminiscent of a hippopotamus. Wunder's research has shown that moderate increases in gravity do stimulate animals' development. For example: - The leg bones of rats raised at three times earth's gravity are 50 per cent stronger than those of rats grown at normal gravity. - Fruit fly larvae grow more quickly at 500 times earth's gravity than at normal gravity. - The shells of turtles raised at five times earth's gravity become rounder, stronger, and larger than normal. - Animals raised in higher gravity tend to have more protein in their muscles and less fat in their bodies than do animals raised at normal gravity. - Animals raised in higher gravity seem to use oxygen more efficiently when returned to normal gravity than do animals raised in normal gravity. As might be expected, at much higher gravity than normal, the animals cannot eat all the extra food that would be required for normal growth. For example, when the gravitational pull on fruit fly larvae is doubled from 500 times normal to 1,000 times normal, the larvae no longer grow faster than normal; in fact, they grow slower than they would at normal gravity. But moderately high gravity puts a mechanical stress on animals that stimulates their supporting limbs to develop, even as weight-lifting strengthens the limbs. Wunder also has done some research on animals in situations that simulate the lack of any gravity. One way he simulates zero gravity is to slowly rotate animals continuously, so there is no settling in one direction. He found that the shells of turtles raised under such conditions tend to enfold around their bellies, in a reversal of the unfolding that occurred as soon as they hatched. In the 1960s the United States government asked Wunder and some other University of Iowa scientists about the effects of prolonged weightlessness in space. Among the problems the scientists predicted, based on experiments with animals, were demineralization of bones and disruption in blood circulation. Wunder says his is basic research. Its most important service is to add to the general fund of knowledge about the normal and abnormal development of animals. He said, "If we can better understand the mechanism that underlies the normal growth of a bone, it will certainly help the orthopaedist or other clinicians to know what's going on if the bone growth isn't normal." ------------------------------ JPM@SAIL 02/27/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They refer to Larry Niven's Known Space Series of stories, in particular Protector, Ringworld, and Ringworld Engineers. People who are not familiar with the Known Space series may not wish to read any further. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Feb 1981 0906-PST From: Tom Wadlow Subject: Equal Rights for Protectors Protectors may indeed start out as breeders of either sex. I believe that the original reason for this mis-understanding is a passage referring to one of Phsstpok's clan members, a two year old girl named Ttuss. After Phsstpok's clan had been sterilized by radiation from an enemy bomb, Phsstpok's lifespan was measured by the time it would take for Ttuss to grow up (she was the youngest member of the Pitchok family, and thus the last child they would ever have) and turn Protector. Without a clan to Protect, she would lose her appetite and die. And when she died, Phsstpok would too. ------------------------------ Date: 27 February 1981 00:29-EST From: Charles E. Haynes Subject: Female Protectors (spoiler) The Tree-of-life change certainly does not kill females... the only reason Pssthpok lived long enough to find out about the earth colony was he was waiting for his DAUGHTER to become a protector... she then joined his project. ------------------------------ Date: 27 February 1981 00:26-EST From: Charles E. Haynes Subject: Protector vs. Ringworld Engineers (Spoiler!) It explicitly explains in Ringworld Engineers why the maps exist and why the original planets were not destroyed. -- Charles ------------------------------ Date: 26 FEB 1981 1220-EST From: JNC at MIT-MC (J. Noel Chiappa) Subject: Female protectors I seem to remember that Pssphtok (however the f^&* you spell it) was at one point (after the valley was bombed) waiting till the last of his kids grew up before having no further reason to live. The kid in question was female (name started with a T, as I recall) and was definitely going to turn into a Pak. I recall no references to females dying at all. Anyway, I can't believe that Larry would make a mistake that dumb. As to all the inconsistencies with Protector and the rest of Known Space; well, face it kids, he didn't think it all out in advance. There are bound to be bugs. Clearly we can have a fine time trying to find logical explanations and fixes, but let's remember that's what we are doing. I was totally stunned by Engineers; he managed to fit it all together! An impressive tour-de-force. I seem to recall other refernces to Home. Can anyone point me at them? Perhaps the Home Pak managed to clean up the atmosphere? I agree the female belter is a big mystery. Maybe her decrepit old ship died? (Sad, but look at all the characters who got killed off when the Sun was turned into an afterburner in Engineers..) Known Space Forever!! Noel ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 28-FEB "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #54 *** EOOH *** Date: 28 FEB 1981 0646-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #54 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Saturday, 28 Feb 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 54 Today's Topics: SF Contest - Strange Titles, SF Movies - Altered States & The Devil and Max Devlin & Scanners & Incredible Shrinking Woman, SF TV - Outer Limits Guide, SF Radio - Star Wars & HGttG, Physics Today - Things that go bump, Spoiler - Ringworld Engineers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 Feb 1981 (Friday) 0832-EDT From: SHRAGE at WHARTON-10 ( Jeffrey Shrager) Subject: SF punch lines. Consider the plot of a story (SF if you like) whose main thrust is some paraphrase of a common expression. For example... "Shoot or I'll freeze!" ------------------------------ Date: 27 Feb 1981 0306-PST From: Jim McGrath Subject: Capsule Movie Reviews By Roger Ebert (c) 1981 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service) ''Altered States''-William Hurt and Blair Brown star in Paddy Chayefsky's story of a Harvard scientist's experiments with altered states of consciousness via a sensory deprivation tank. Ken Russell's flair for visual pyrotechnics and apocalyptic sexuality make this film the one he was born to direct. Rated R. 3 1/2 stars. ''The Devil and Max Devlin''- This dull Disney fantasy stars Elliott Gould as a man who makes a bargain with the devil (Bill Cosby) to have his sentence in hell commuted. It's a pale, insipid movie that could have been programmed on a computer. Rated PG. 2 stars. ''Incredible Shrinking Woman''- Modern chemistry shrinks Lily Tomlin in a movie that's not inane, sometimes wickedly knowing, and only periodically boring-though it never really breaks through to become inspired comedy. Still, it's a good bet for the kids, who surely know just how little Tomlin feels. With Charles Grodin, Ned Beatty. Rated PG. 2 1/2 stars. ''Scanners''- Good special effects don't help this lockstep thriller about people whose ESP is so strong it can kill. Jennifer O'Neill, Stephen Lack and Patrick McGoohan star. Rated R. 2 stars. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Feb 1981 1903-PST (Friday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: OL message Recently, a reader of the Outer Limits Episode Guide sent me a list of personal comments regarding some of the episodes (rather lengthy). Would that person please contact me again? Thanks much. --Lauren-- ------------------------------ Date: 27 Feb 1981 1103-PST Sender: ADPSC at USC-ISI Subject: NPR SF programs (Balt/Wash area) From: ADPSC (Don) The March 1981 edition of FORECAST! magazine includes a schedule of upcomming SW and HGttG episodes. SW - WAMU (Washington, DC, 88.5, 50kw) Monday nights at 11pm beginning 3/2. Rebroadcast the following Sunday at Noon. WITF (Hershey PA, 89.5, 15kw) Sunday nights at 7pm beginning 3/8. Rebroadcast Tuesday at 12:30 and the following Sunday at 1pm. HGttG - WAMU, Fridays at 11pm beginning 3/6. WITF - Thursdays at 10:30pm beginning 3/12. In addition, WITF is apparently in SF month. They will broadcast "Before the Screaming Begins" by Wally K. Daly, 3/3 at 8pm; "Frankenstein", 3/3 at 11pm; "The Foundation Trilogy", Sundays at 4pm starting 3/1; "The Infant" by Paul Ableman, 3/16 at 10pm; and "War of the Worlds", 3/30 at 10pm. Living in Northern Virginia, I am not able to get WITF, but good luck to those of you in the Baltimore -> North areas. Don ------------------------------ Date: 27 Feb 1981 1319-EST From: G.Nessus at MIT-EECS (Doug Alan) Subject: Photons Photons do have mass! They have energy, so they have mass. They have momentum (p = E/c), so they have mass. They are affected by gravitational fields and they create gravitational fields, so they have mass. Anyone who says that photons have no mass is either being imprecise, and means that photons have no REST mass, or they are wrong (or perhaps they have a different definition of mass). Talking about the rest mass of a photon is really useless though, since photons are never at rest. (Actually there are some scientists who say that the rest mass of a photon may not be zero, and that, because of this, light may travel slower than c, with the speed of a frequency of light approaching c as the frequency approaches infinity. If this were so, a photon with a frequency of 0 would be at rest. But if this were true, for reasons unknown to me, the inverse square law of electrical forces would not be exactly true, and so far, it has been found to be true to many decimal places.) All this flaming just gave me an idea on how to build a time machine. I don't know if it could work but.... If you have a billion lasers or so, maybe you could aim them so they all intersect at one point. All this mass at one point might create such a high mass density that a quantum black hole would be created. Once you have the quantum black hole, you wait for it to evaporate, leaving you a naked singularity - et voila, instant time machine. Lightly, Doug Alan ------------------------------ JPM@SAIL 02/27/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They refer to Larry Niven's Known Space Series of stories, in particular Protector, Ringworld, and Ringworld Engineers. People who are not familiar with the Known Space series may not wish to read any further. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Feb 1981 00:31:43-PST From: CSVAX.feldman at Berkeley Subject: Protector vs. Ringworld Engineers (Spoiler!) re: It explicitly explains in Ringworld Engineers why the maps exist and why the original planets were not destroyed. -- Charles Oh. My mistake. I (unfortunately) read Ringworld Engineers about two months BEFORE reading Protector, and it was a library copy, so I guess his comments about the Pak didn't mean much to me at the time, and I couldn't reread the relevant parts! After reading Niven's comments about Internal Consistency (in "Tales of Known Space") I get upset by any apparent lack of consistency in his books, or in anyone's. It is nice to know that he, at least, is doing well. Steve ------------------------------ BGR@MIT-MC 02/27/81 06:44:33 Re: Ringworld Engineers Okay, okay, I was wrong about females being killed by Tree-of-Life. It's been a while since I read Ringworld. I really did like Engineers, upon a second reading. Some of the things that really stand out are Niven's description of addiction: the droud calling out to Wu, almost; Wu's feeling of triumph when he actually enjoyed something without the droud -- all are sort of strangely reminiscent of the period of my life when I gave up smoking. I wish the involvement of the ghouls had been played up some. Their intelligence came as a real surprise, and yet it was a disappointment when not much else happened with them. I envisioned them taking Wu on an eventful voyage through the mountains to where a construction crew was replacing engines on the rim. But here's another inconsistency: Teela was a Protector. Thrillingly brilliant, and all that. There were a few more Protectors, there were the resources of a not-too-long-fallen civilization that was capable, in its time, of producing floating cities (!), and there were years before the Ringworld was due to perish. Why couldn't the Bussard engines necessary to save the Ringworld be manufactured? They weren't that hard to manufacture, and superconductor probably wasn't essential. There were working models. Not all of the original 400 would have to be made; 20 existed, and only one-half of the ring had to be pushed; that leaves 180. Or intermediary solutions might be worked out. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 1-MAR "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #55 *** EOOH *** Date: 1 MAR 1981 0612-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #55 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Sunday, 1 Mar 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 55 Today's Topics: SF Lectures - Boston, SF Books - Known Space, SF Movies - Scanners, SF Radio - Star Wars & HGttG, Spoiler - Ringworld Engineers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 1 Mar 1981 0058-EST From: MD at MIT-XX Subject: Interesting Lectures A couple of upcoming lectures sponsored by the MIT Lecture Series Committee may be of interest to some of the local readers: Mike Jittlov, creator of Wizard of Speed and Time, will speak on Thursday, March 12, at 8pm in 26-100. He supposedly will be showing 50 minutes of his work (all, I believe), and commenting on it. Tickets are $1.00, available in Lobby 10 and at LSC movies. Gerard K. O'Neill will speak in Kresge at 8pm on March 19. The title of his talk is The High Frontier: Space Colonies and Energy from Space. Tickets are $1.50. Mike Dornbrook ------------------------------ Date: 22 Feb 1981 0101-PST From: Zellich at OFFICE-3 (Rich Zellich) Subject: Sequence of Known Space books/stories I just bought World of Ptavvs, A Gift From Earth, A Hole In Space, and Tales of Known Space. The order I just listed them is the order of their original copyrights -- does anyone know if it is also the correct chronological order of the stories contained therein? I assume that ALL of them come before Ringworld and Ringworld Engineers...right? -Rich ------------------------------ Date: 28 Feb 1981 (Saturday) 1331-PST From: DWS at LLL-MFE Subject: Scanners (non-spoiler) I would see it again only to get a better look at the credits. The artist responsible for the works in the gallery/studio deserves more credit that whoever did the screenplay. Anybody catch the artist's name? Also, beware the well timed peal of thunder about 10 minutes into the movie. Oh Boris! Dave ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 28 February 1981 13:49-EST From: John A. Pershing Jr. Subject: SF Radio in Boston I don't believe anyone has reported this yet, so: WGBH/FM 90 is airing Star Wars on Sundays at 4:30pm starting on 8-Mar. Episodes are repeated on Mondays at 10:30pm and Fridays at 6:30pm. and, as an added bonus: They will also be airing HHGttG on Mondays at 10:pm [just before SW] starting on the 9th. -jp ------------------------------ JPM@SAIL 03/1/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They refer to Larry Niven's Known Space Series of stories, in particular Protector, Ringworld, and Ringworld Engineers. People who are not familiar with the Known Space series may not wish to read any further. ------------------------------ Date: 28 February 1981 1008-EST (Saturday) From: Hank.Walker at CMU-10A (C410DW60) Subject: Ringworld Engineers (spoiler) I very much doubt that the intelligence or technology existed to manufacture attitude thrusters for the rings. First, if it did, then why were they canibalized for rocket engines in the first place? Second, it appears that all the smart folks died in the "Fall of the Cities". Not one engineer or scientist appears in either Ringworld or Ringworld Engineers. Everyone seemed to be coasting along on the existing technology base. If enough time had been available, then perhaps Teela-Pak could have created a bunch of Paks and done the job of building enough thrusters. She made some Paks, but obviously didn't have enough time to build the factories to build the thrusters. Otherwise she would have done that, being perfectly logical and all. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Feb 1981 (Saturday) 1851-EDT From: WESTFW at WHARTON-10 ( William Westfield) Subject: Ringworld. The reason that the people (?) on ringworld cant build more Bussard ramjets, or anything for that matter, is because there are no natural resources -- you have a shallow layer of dirt, and then you hit rim material. No iron mines. No coal mines. No petroleum. No nothing. This is pointed out, I think both in RW and RWE. Bill W ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 2-MAR "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #56 *** EOOH *** Date: 2 MAR 1981 0512-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #56 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Monday, 2 Mar 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 56 Today's Topics: SF TV - writer query, SF Radio - Star Wars & HGttG, Spoiler - Ringworld Engineers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 01 Mar 1981 0413-PST From: Judy Anderson Subject: mystery request Does anyone know an author who fits the following specification: "A well-known science fiction author who wrote regularly for ALFRED HITCHCOCK PRESENTS and THE TWILIGHT ZONE" (Come on, you twilight zone lovers! Don't fail me now!) Thanks, Judy. p.s. Please send replies directly to me (JMA @ SAIL), not to the whole list! ------------------------------ Date: 1 Mar 1981 (Sunday) 1128-EDT From: PLATTS at WHARTON-10 ( Steve Platt) Subject: SW, HGttG on the radio in Philly area WUHY-FM will be broadcasting both SW and HGttG in the Philadelpha- Delaware-South Jersey area starting this week: SW on Mondays starting 2 March, 7 PM ...repeated the following Sunday starting 8 March, 9 PM HGttG following the SW repeats only, starting Sunday 8 March, 9:30 PM. -Steve ------------------------------ Date: 1 Mar 1981 1406-EST From: G.Nessus at MIT-EECS (Doug Alan) Subject: Ringworld Also, Bussard ramjets need monopoles. ------------------------------ Date: 1 Mar 1981 11:27 PST From: Stewart at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: Ringworlds, Dyson, materials This should be a lesson for all of us. When you build a Ringworld, put lots of heaps of various ores around, or cubic miles of iron bars or what have you. It will be inexpensive (comparatively) and who knows? You might need them later. When you build a computer to control something, put on an off switch (Colossus, Paradigm Red). When you build an airplane, add two radios, with separate power sources. When you build a file system, put in back pointers for the file pages (Unix). This is called either ''Engineering'' or ''Paranoia''. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 3-MAR "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #57 *** EOOH *** Date: 3 MAR 1981 0725-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #57 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Tuesday, 3 Mar 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 57 Today's Topics: SF TV - writer query, SF Books - Here's the Plot What's the Title & Tapeworm Stories? & Known Space Chronology & Dragon's Egg, SF Movies - Scanners & Star Wars IV & Superman II & Strive for the Stars, SF Radio - Star Wars, Physics Tomorrow - Black Holes & Light Barrier, SF Movies - Censorship and Pornography, Star Wars - Nature of the Force ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 Mar 1981 1740-PST From: Oper.yduJ at SU-SCORE (Judy Anderson) Subject: writer query answer Thanx to all the people who answered my query about the SF writer who has contributed to both Alfred Hitchcock Presents and The Twilight Zone. It turns out to have two definite correct answer (what a surprise for the trivia person who proposed the question!): Ray Bradbury and Richard Matheson. Just thought I'd let you all know the result, Judy. p.s. I am also known as JMA @ SAIL, however, SAIL is down at the moment. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Mar 1981 12:18 PST From: Otto.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Here's the Plot - What's the Title? Part 1: Earth ship on colonizing mission has crash-landed on a planet consisting of puddles and swamp. Crew is altering the germ plasma of the prospective colonists to suit them to the unplanned environment. Part 2: Colonists, who we realize are microscopic and aquatic are building a space ship to take them to the next puddle. I seem to remember this as a longish short story. (!) Vanessa ------------------------------ Date: 1981-2-13-09:24:12.29 From: STEVE GUTFREUND at RDVAX at VAX4 Sender: YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO Looking back at two long strings of comments over the last few weeks: (how to make a movie about exploding disk drives; all absorbing problems for star trek computers). I wonder if anyone thinks about sticking these things together. Thus, how do I go about making a movie about a worm program that takes over a network? Would one be fanciful and have the computer blowing up disk drives to kill off operators and have tape drives strangling the system programers? Or would it be better to take a quiter approach and have an animated flick with an ALTO/PERQ/NU/GIGI and show pretty pictures of exploding tail multi-segemented page programs. Only one book on this subject springs to mind: (Shockwave Rider by Brunner). Does anyone know of others? -- mephisto (Steven Gutfreund) ------------------------------ Date: 02 Mar 1981 0159-PST From: Don Woods Subject: Known Space chronology (no spoiler) Since you say you've got Tales of Known Space, what's your problem? At least in MY edition, it includes a time line for the entire series. (And note that there IS one story that comes later than Ringword and Ringword Engineers, namely "Safe at Any Speed", in Tales of Known Space.) -- Don. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Mar 1981 (Monday) 1023-PST From: DWS at LLL-MFE Subject: Chronological of Known Space The chronology is layed out with a timeline on the inside cover of "Tales of Known Space", and involves a bit of hopping from book to book. Niven apparently retrofit some stories. ------------------------------ Date: 1981-2-26-17:06:42.86 From: STEVE LIONEL at STAR Sender: YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO Subj: Dragon's Egg I just finished reading Dr. Forward's "Dragon's Egg", and enjoyed it immensely. To me, it contained elements of "Watership Down", "Rendezvous with Rama" and the Foundation trilogy, all done with real science and intriguing characters and situations. My memory tells me that I once read an excerpt, or an early version of part of it, in one of the SF mags, like Analog. Am I right? I am not qualified to comment on the wondrous physics employed, so I only want to mention two amusing items which caught my eye. The first is the semi-incestuous relationship between Dr. Forward and Larry Niven, where two of Forward's characters are named "Niven" and Niven has named at least two characters "Forward". The second item which gave me a chuckle is on page 150 of the paperback, where it seems like Dragon Slayer's computer is running TOPS-20! I suppose that might seem natural in a year numbered 2050, right? Steve Lionel ------------------------------ Date: 2 Mar 1981 1555-PST From: tom spencer Subject: Scanners Does anybody know if the movie, SCANNERS, has anything to do with a short story by Stanislaw (sp?) Lem called "Sanners Live in Vain" or some such? ------------------------------ Date: 2 Mar 1981 1013-PST From: FEATHER at USC-ISIF Subject: Longevity needed I'd just about got adjusted to the idea that there are to be a total of 9 Star Wars "episodes", when it crossed my mind that the first we saw, known as Star Wars IV - "A New Hope", might really be Star Wars IV-A "New Hope"... Glurk! ------------------------------ Date: 2 Mar 1981 12:14 PST From: Otto.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Superman II It seems that I was the only SF-Lover in Australia over Christmas, so I feel duty-bound to let you know about Superman II. Its hard to critique it without generating a spoiler warning, but I'll try. Nano-review: If you liked Superman I you'll like Superman II. Pico-review: My husband left his logic and critical faculties at home and enjoyed the movie enormously. My sensible five-year-old opined that it was "a silly movie". The general reaction will probably fall between these two extremes! Micro-review: The special effects were as excellent as last time. The plot was just as outrageous. I don't think I will spoil anything (or surprise anyone) by relating that the three evil Kryptonites that were pressed into a platter in Superman I turn up to take over the earth. There is an exciting 3-against-1 Superbattle over the streets of New York. Lois Lane discovers the true identity of Clark Kent. Lex Luthor offers to betray Superman for "some beach-front property, Australia". The Sydney audience loved that! I found there to be one lacunae in the plot development too large to excuse. It is carefully set out that (but not why) If X then not-Y, ever again. Superman insists on having X. He is exploring the consequences of being not-Y. Suddenly the plot requires Y. In the next scene Y is again in evidence, with no explanation whatever. Superman III is surely on its way. Vanessa ------------------------------ From: Mike at UCLA-SECURITY (Michael Urban) Subject: From the LA TIMes 3/2/81 From the Field News Service MOSCOW -- A costly Soviet science-fiction film, made in the style of the American extravaganza "Star Wars," will have its premiere in Moscow this week. It includes impressive scenes of space stations whirling through remote galaxies -- as in the American original -- and has a Soviet version of the helpful household robot R2D2, which won such popularity in "Star Wars." The Soviet film is called "Strive for the Stars." It was made in 18 months at a cost of 2 million rubles (about $3 million) under the direction of Richard Viktorov. Some of the musical backing is by the British pop group Pink Floyd, and the film even includes a Western-style glimpse of female nudity. But at a running time of three hours it will probably be like other Soviet productions in proving too long and wordy to make much impact abroad. ----- Sounds interesting, actually. If only it had been reported better, one could form a better judgment. OK, con film-program moguls, when do we get to see this curiosity? Mike ------------------------------ ZEMON@MIT-AI 03/02/81 07:34:45 Re: (another) SW-radio in the DC area Starting wednesday 3/4 on WETA-FM (about 90.5), SW will be aired at 6:30pm. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Mar 1981 0920-PST From: Maggetti@SUMEX-AIM Subject: SW broadcast in the bay area Does anyone know is the SW broacast bein re broadcast in the SF bay area??? I go to class and can't catch it. Please send answer directly to Maggetti @ Stanford. "mich" ------------------------------ ACW@MIT-AI 03/02/81 16:36:10 Re: Quantum black holes When a small black hole evaporates, doesn't the singularity go away? Doug Alan said something like "... wait for it to evaporate and you are left with a naked singularity ...". Frankly this sounds like rubbish to me, and I was wondering whether one of our physicists could clear this up. --- Wechsler ------------------------------ Date: 2 Mar 1981 14:15:33-PST From: E.jeffc at Berkeley To: i:sf-lovers@mit-ai Subject: FTL paradoxes Alas, even when between objects at rest with respect to each other, faster than light travel can still produce time travel paradoxes. My previous arguments came from the May '80 issue of Isaac Asimov's SF Magazine (IASFM), but in the letters column of the March issue which I just received, someone found a loophole. The argument is as follows: Let's say there are two long spaceships, one of which is facing east and is "at rest", and the other going west at nearly the speed of light. Let's also assume that these two ships are, at the moment, side by side, and that the ships have an instantaneous intercom system. Now Ship A, the one at rest, decides to blow up ship B. So the captain, at the front of the ship, issues an order to the man stationed at the laser cannons at the rear. As the communications is instantaneous, and we assume the reaction time of the man is also, the front end of Ship B is blown up simultaneously with the captain of Ship A giving the order. Now the rear end of Ship B notices the front of the ship was blown up instantly, and so decides to blow up the front end of Ship A. Because of the differences in the frame of references, Ship A is blown up before the captain of that ship decided to blow up Ship B, by B's frame of reference, which is of course impossible, so we have a paradox. To be completely truthful, I do not see how B decides to blow up A before A decides to blow up B (the point was not explained very clearly; maybe someone could explain why), but this does not surprise me as I could think of a few situations myself that are paradoxical. But even if FTL must always result in time travel paradoxes, that does not rule out FTL travel, it merely means that for FTL to exist, time travel must also exist, the two are probably very interrelated, and it's my understanding that General Relativity does not forbid time travel. I always did believe, that when the time machine is finally built, it will look remarkably like a space ship. ------------------------------ Date: 1981-2-10-13:36:29.09 From: MARTIN MINOW at PHENIX at VAX4 Sender: YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO RE: Chip's recent discussion of kidporn, etc. For the record, here is the source of the "fire in a crowded theatre" quote: "The character of every act depends on the circumstances in which it is done. The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic.... The question in every case is whether the words are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger." -- Oliver Wendell Holmes (Jr.) (1841-1935) Shenck vs. U.S., 249 U.S. 47 (1919) The quotation was printed in George Seldes's book, "The Great Quotations." You might also want to consider the following, from the same book: "The Puritan hated bear-baiting, not because it gave pain to the bear, but because it gave pleasure to the spectators." -- Thomas Babington Macaulay (1800-1859) Regarding kidporn, one should ask whether reading it creates violence in ordinary people, or whether it can only awaken a suppressed, but already existing, desire. Perhaps Big Brother might consider exposing citizens to "unacceptable material" (choose your favorite: kidporn, "Starship Troopers", The Declaration of Independence, etc.) and, if they show an unacceptable reaction (even if subliminal), cancel their breeding permit, or whatever. I. e, it would be unacceptable to falsely THINK fire in a crowded theatre. Hmmm, wasn't a university professor recently convicted for conspiracy for having read a book which was also read by a revolutionary group? While I'm on the subject, my favorite "forgotten" science fiction is Per Wahloo's "Murder on the 31st Floor." I read it in Swedish but I think it was published in the late 60's or early 70's in paperback in the U.S. It's a dystopia heavily concerned with the control of information. Martin Minow ------------------------------ JPM@SAIL 03/3/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last message in this digest. It offers another view on the nature of the force and the Star Wars universe. People who are not familiar with the Star Wars series may not wish to read any further. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Feb 1981 1654-PST From: Maggetti@SUMEX-AIM Subject: Spoiler Warning! The Nature of the Force (SW) Well -- I've listened long enough - now I'm putting my two cents in - (actually, I jut had trouble getting the loan) As I understand it, there is a question concerning the terms 'light' and 'dark' with reference to the FORCE. l. The FORCE is NOT neutral. 2. The FORCE is 'life-energy'. 3. 'Light' means 'creative' (meaning healthysurvival for all -- anything from just the person to the race, ecology, environment) 4. 'Dark' means destructive (meaning suppressing life & creativity in form other than harmful) So that if Darth Vader were to save someone's life - he would have to use the 'light' side of the FORCE - (by the way, the term 'light' is never used in either SW or TESB, it's either 'THE FORCE' or "the DARK side". As far as whether or not the "dark" side is 'quicker - more seductive' --- of course it is!! Everybody knows if it's easy - you are doing something wrong. For example, aren't you stronger, louder or faster when you're angry? And haven't you noticed you make 'bad' decisions (i.e. destructive) when you're angry? And about the light saber battle . . . . comparing Luke to O.B.1. or Vader is not unlike equating addition to calculus (in other words, there is a big difference between 'arrogant' and competent). Well - that should stir up enough for now -- have fun and . . . . . "MAY THE FORCE BE WITH YOU!!" 'mich' ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 4-MAR "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #58 *** EOOH *** Date: 4 MAR 1981 0808-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #58 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Wednesday, 4 Mar 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 58 Today's Topics: Administrivia - What a mess... (Scanners and Surface Tension), SF Books - Dragon's Egg & Tapeworm Stories? & Surface Tension, SF Movies - Scanners & Galaxina, SF TV - Einstein's Universe, SF Radio - Star Wars and HGttG, Physics Tomorrow - Black Holes & Light Barrier, Star Wars - Nature of the Force ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 4 March 1981 0220-PST From: The Moderator Subject: Administrivia - What a mess... (Scanners and Surface Tension) There has been an absolute flood of responses to the inquiries involving yesterday's queries involving the movie Scanners and the story Surface Tension. Many of these contributions duplicate one another, while not a few are actual spoilers for Surface Tension. Only two of the responses are included in today's digest. They answer the immediate queries, while not constituting a spolier. Thursday's digest will contain the other answers to the query, mostly in the spoiler section of the digest. Following Roger's policy, contributions that duplicate information found in other messages will be acknowledged, but not included in the digest. I apologize for this situation. My correct course of action would have been to include a brief message concerning the facts of Scanners and Surface Tension along with yesterdays messages themselves. Unfortunately, inexperience as moderator prevented me from recognizing the potential these messages had to elicit a large response. Hopefully I will be able to detect these potential problems in the future. Jim ------------------------------ Date: 3 MAR 1981 0849-PST From: FORWARD at USC-ECL Subject: Dragon's Egg Actually, exerpts from DRAGON'S EGG appeared in two places. The "Technical Appendix" of DRAGON'S EGG (shortened somewhat) was in the April 1980 issue of Analog as "A Taste of DRAGON'S EGG". Similar material, plus a scene or two from the book, showed up in the Sept 1980 Omni under the title, "Life on a Neutron Star". The story behind the naming of Pierre Niven in DRAGON'S EGG is an interesting but long one. Remind me to tell it some time. In any event, twice Larry used the name Forward in stories, ("Borderland of Sol" and "The Hole Man"), and twice he won a Hugo. I'm hoping that it works both ways, and that if I use Niven in one of my stories, that the book will at least get nominated for a Hugo. (It can't win, since Larry's PATCHWORK GIRL has a Dr. Forward in it. Besides, with such powerhouses as Niven's RINGWORLD ENGINEERS, Pohl's BEYOND THE BLUE EVENT HORIZON, and Varley's WIZARD, the competition for the Hugo for best novel of 1980 is tough.) Bob Forward ------------------------------ Date: 03 MAR 1981 1146-EST From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Computers and tapeworms WHEN HARLIE WAS ONE talks about tapeworms and similar frightworthy ideas but doesn't actually get into any of them. Harlie seems to cause enough trouble by himself----rewriting the company's annual report to include a section describing him, persuading a bank computer to send out a hack statement notice. . . . ------------------------------ Date: 3 Mar 1981 12:55:38 EST From: Morris Keesan Subject: computers, scanners A recent book involving a computer program propagating itself all over is "The Adolescence of P-1". I don't remember the author. It's an amusing book, although a bit IBMish. I'm unaware of "Scanners Live in Vain" by Lem, but the story of that name by Cordwainer Smith has nothing at all in common with the movie "Scanners", based on what I've read about the movie. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Mar 1981 1054-EST From: PDL at MIT-DMS (P. David Lebling) Subject: [Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #57] Query answers: 1) The micro-people building a puddle-spanning "spaceship" are in "Surface Tension" by James Blish. This has been anthologized any number of times, and also appears as part of the collected "Pantropy" (=gene-manipulation) series collected as "The Seedling Stars." 2) "Scanners" bears absolutely no relation to Cordwainer Smith's "Scanners Live in Vain". (Stanislaw Lem did not write it, needless to say.) I think this question appeared once before... Dave ------------------------------ Date: 02 Mar 1981 1622-PST From: Jim McGrath By RICHARD FREEDMAN Newhouse News Service (UNDATED) We are in the year 9008 A.D., aboard Police Cruiser 308, ''The Infinity,'' which looks like an Egyptian sarcophagus. Aboard, too, are sullenly handsome Thor (Stephen Macht); his sidekick, Buzz (James David Hinton), who wears a Dodgers shirt; slobbish Captain Butt (Avery Schreiber), who looks like both Cheech and Chong; and the lusciously enigmatic robot Galaxina (Dorothy R. Stratten), who controls the spaceship in ''Galaxina,'' a science-fiction spoof which, despite its ''R'' rating, seems designed for 8-year-olds. ''You know, kid, you've got a bad habit - you breathe,'' the irascible Capt. Butt tells Buzz, and immediately we know we're not watching a movie, but a grade-school mumbleypeg contest. Our crew is in search of the planet Altar I, where they hope to find a hunk of rock called ''Blue Star,'' which bears unspecified magic powers. But first they encounter an intergalactic motorcycle gang and stop for refreshment at a cannibal bar and a brothel where both hostesses and guests are mutants like the denizens of the bar in ''Star Wars.'' Macht falls hopelessly in love with the inert Galaxina, which is small wonder because half the time this mechanical space voyager is dressed in a Playboy bunny costume. Among the science-fiction flicks parodied and plagiarized by ''Galaxina'' are ''2001: A Space Odyssey'' (we get a sampling of Strauss' ''Also Sprach Zarathustra'') and ''Alien'' (the captain ingests what seems to be a small salamander, which grows up to resemble Yoda in ''The Empire Strikes Back.'') Nobody in ''Galaxina'' shows the slightest talent for acting - nor is any required by the lame-brain script - and the special effects of producer George E. Mather, who worked on ''Star Wars,'' look as if they'd been bought at Woolworth's. X X X FILM CLIPS: ''Galaxina.'' A tedious, juvenile parody of ''Star Wars,'' ''Alien'' and ''2001: A Space Odyssey,'' among other better science fiction movies. Devoutly to be avoided. Rated ''R.'' ------------------------------ Date: 3 Mar 1981 1125-EST From: USCHOLD at RUTGERS Subject: Einstein's Universe coming up March 10 on PBS For those of you who want to bone up on a little general relativity, this excellent program will be rebroadcast next week. 10:15 pm in the N.J.-N.Y. area. ENJOY! Mike Uschold ------------------------------ Date: 3 Mar 1981 1510-PST From: Craig W. Reynolds from III via Rand Subject: SW & HGttG in alternate universes None of the other Luna City SFL-ers has mentioned this yet so: The Star Wars and HGttG radio show will be broadcast concurrently (using time domain multiplexing) on XLOON (Radio Free Luna) FM 26.8 Wednesdays at 8pm and rebroadcast on laser link #5, grid willing, as the mood strikes them. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Mar 1981 1554-EST From: G.Nessus at MIT-EECS (Doug Alan) Subject: Nude <-<-<-<- Naked Singularities According to Jerry Pournelle somewhere in "Black Holes", an anthology of SF about black holes, Steven Hawkings, the famous black hole physicist, says that when a quantum black hole evaporates, it leaves behind a naked singularity. Doubting such a strange theory, I asked Robert Forward at Noreascon II if evaporating black holes really do leave behind naked singularities. He said that, as far as he knew, the math involved indicates that they do, but that in actuality, maybe they do and maybe they don't. Personally, I don't like to think that an evaporating black hole leaves behind a naked singularity either (especially because I don't think time travel exists (unless all events are predetermined)), but I'm not an expert. --Doug Alan ------------------------------ kwh@MIT-AI 03/03/81 22:04:16 Re: Relativity E.Jeffc's* argument is correct, faster than light travel inherently causes temporal paradoxes, which must always be magicked away by some conclusion or another. But the trick is that in the example he cited, the paradox is caused by the instantaneous nature of both the laser (which blew the ends off of ships) and the in-ship intercom. Relativity allows you to create any spacial or temporal separation between two events by correctly choosing your frame of reference. You can even reverse the order of events by choosing the correct frame. I.E. one individual can see event B following A, while another, in a different frame, will see A following B. The only catch is that there are two types of event-pairs, time-like and space-like, which determine if you can flip spacial and temporal relationships around (i.e. making B happen before A, or B appear on the other side of A....) and this distinction, incidentally, makes any events which do not share a light cone (a distance/time plot for light speed) have a space like separation. I.E. it preserves casuality, since no cause can travel faster than light. So if A causes B, you cannot see B happen before A! (Gee, that sounds muddled doesn't it) In other words, if two events see or have seen each other, their separation is space-like, and their temporal order is always preserved. (It looks nicer in equations) And this result comes straight from the Lorentz/Einstein equations, without assuming casuality- It looks like the Universe likes to keep herself organized, but there is always hope.... Tachyons are imaginary particles (in the mathematical sense) with imaginary mass, size, and temporal direction (they go backwards in time). Luxons (particles moving at C, particles with v < C are called tardyons (poor things)) could be called non-existent particles, becuase they weigh nothing, go nowhere, and are frozen in time- Their mass is zero because at the speed of light, their mass would be infinite, if they had any at first. This was proven by special relativity, and general relativity predicted that they would be affected by gravity anyway. They go nowhere, FROM THEIR POINT OF VIEW, because at C, the Lorentz contraction makes the universe around them shrink to a point, and where can you go in a point? It doesn't "see" itself go anywhere. In addition, they, from their point of view, are frozen in time (but how can something frozen in time have a point of view?-- My brain hurts...) Well so much for my relativistic flame- it's neat stuff, and the math for special relativity is not really that heavy- (Though general relativity is, and thats where all the paradoxes are resolved, sigh). Cheers, Ken Haase *P.S. Would it be possible to either make an sf-lovers subscribers list (with real names), or to have messages signed? Their is something distinctly impersonal about using UNAMES in freeform debates. [ The list itself is not available to ANYONE right now (including myself), since we really do not know the full readership of the digest. We have some future plans in that area (subject of a future Administrativia), but until we can implement them people may want to take Ken's suggestion to heart. - Jim ] ------------------------------ kwh@MIT-AI 03/03/81 22:20:53 Re: Black Holes I think this may be my record for my sf-lovers replies (Don't worry, Lauren, I can't keep it up). As I interpet it, a singularity is a twist in space time which a black hole causes, and it causes all kinds of really strange things to happen (time travel, FTL, etc;) Of course no self-respecting universe would let a naked singularity out to disrupt casuality, so every singularity is decently clothed in a black hole with its event horizon. The event-horizon is a phenomenon of both special and general relativity, in that it allows nothing to leave a black hole, and stops in time anything trying to enter it. (It doesn't really stop it in time, but slows it at a high (exponential, I forget) rate so that it cannot reach the forbidden "singularity". The event horizon is called that because events inside it cannot reach the outside, due to a combination of relativistic effects. But here is the trick. In quantum theory, black holes evaporate, and they leave a naked singularity, which means that ANYTHING can happen. Stephen Hawking figured this out, by applying quantum mechanics to general and special relativity, unleashing the possibility of chaos on the world. All of this is very well covered in POURNE's (Jerry Pournelle) A Step Farther Out, which is worth getting just for its own sake. He explains it very well, (far better than my base mutterings) and I recommend it highly. I hope I don't think of anything else to send tonight- I hope this sparks some debate (and answers some questions). Ken Haase ------------------------------ JPM@SAIL 03/3/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last message in this digest. It offers another view on the nature of the force and the Star Wars universe. People who are not familiar with the Star Wars series may not wish to read any further. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Mar 1981 0940-PST From: Maggetti@SUMEX-AIM Subject: Star Wars - Nature of the Force SPOILER!!! Well, upon reviewing my original argument - I messed up -- The FORCE IS neutral -- it's the user who is not (Yes, I can feel the athlete's tongue coming on now). And here's another one for you to chew on-- "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS 'DESTRUCTION' -- ONLY COUNTER- CREATION" Enjoy!! "mich" ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 6-MAR "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #59 *** EOOH *** Date: 6 MAR 1981 0237-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #59 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS PM Digest Thursday, 5 Mar 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 59 Today's Topics: Administrivia - What a mess... (Scanners and Surface Tension), SF Books - Here's the Plot What's the Title & King David's Spaceship & Time Travellers Strictly Cash & The Final Encyclopedia & Exerpt from "Fundamental Disch" & Washington Post SF reviews & The Adolescence of P-1 & Web of Angels & "True Names" & The Seedling Stars & "Surface Tension" & Scanners Live in Vain, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 March 1981 0220-PST From: The Moderator Subject: Administrivia - What a mess... (Scanners and Surface Tension) Six messages in this digest refer to the stories "Scanners Live in Vain" and "Surface Tension." Several others were also sent, but due to redundancy of information and lack of space in the digest they have not been included. Thanks are in order for everyone who took the time to send off a message, particular to David Ackley, Steve Platt, Ken Hasse, Mike Spreitzer, William Gropp, William Westfield, Chip Hitchcock, and Gordon Letwin, whose messages do not appear in this digest. Jim ------------------------------ Date: 4 March 1981 15:25 est From: Janofsky.Tipi at RADC-Multics Subject: What's the title? Poul Anderson, in the intro to "Questions and Answers" (formerly known as "Planet of No Return"), mentioned the planet on which it was based had been scientifically designed and that he, Asimov, and Blish had each been commissioned to write a novel about it. Does anyone known the names of the other two novels about the planet Troas? Thanks, Bill J. ------------------------------ Date: 4 March 1981 15:36 est From: Janofsky.Tipi at RADC-Multics Subject: Where's the title?? Over the past three weeks, I checked a baker's dozen bookstores in the Boston area looking for a copy of Jerry Pournelle's "King David's Spaceship" (Simon&Schuster, Jan '81). The list includes MIT's COOP, Barnes&Noble, Lauriat's, Paperback Booksmith, Walden Books, and my favorite local SF&F emporiums. I'm beginning to get the idea that NOBODY in Boston carries the hardcover release. If anyone knows of a store in the area carrying it, please let me know. I've also had no luck trying to find copies of Spider Robinson's "Time Travellers Pay Cash", or Gordon Dickson's "The Final Encyclopedia." Are they not out yet or am I looking in the wrong places?? Thanks, Bill J. ------------------------------ Date: 4 March 1981 18:12-EST From: Jerry E. Pournelle Subject: Where's the title?? 1. I think Gordy's FINAL ENCYCLOPEDIA isn't out yet. 2. Thanks for looking for my book. Maybe if a few irate Bostonians demand that the bookstores stock it??? Love and plenty kisses, JEP [ Spider Robinson's new collection of short stories (of which 4 take place in Callahan's Place) is out in paperback (ACE). The title is TIME TRAVELERS STRICTLY CASH. - Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 3 Mar 1981 16:45:46-PST From: microsoft!gordon at Berkeley Date: 3 Mar 1981 1013-PST From: microsoft!gordon@csvax (Gordon Letwin) Subject: Computer Networks in SF The novella 'True Names' by Vernor Vinge (part of a two-story book, "Binary Star #5") deals with the same basic subject matter as Shockwave Rider: when the computer net takes over modern society, the net hacker can become king. "True Names" does not deal in any depth with the effects of network life on society, as did "Rider", but adds a new and rather effective twist to the story line: the introduction of Adventure-like elements to net life. Basically, in addition to normal high- performance net access gear the well-equipped hacker has a "portal", an EEG-like device whose electrodes, fastened to the face and scalp, allow two way transmission of high-bandwidth info to/from the net. A lot of sophisticated software and a lot of practice interpreting the stimuli returned allows the user to 'ascend' to the network itself and experience cybernetic happenings as physical occurances. When installed in the network, the "wizards" in this story prefer to take on that aspect literally. Only those that can traverse a magical path, dealing with the hazards there, can enter the "castle" and join the coven of wizards. Of course, the giant spiders and trolls the wizard sees guarding the path are security programs, written to mimic self-aware behavior. Failing to deal with one will get you "killed" (your job killed) and precipitate you back into the real world. The book title refers to the fact that and all wizards use false names and appearances to protect their true (real world) names. Since the government sees them as vandals and menaces (and in fact, the wizard "Robin Hood" regularly transfers funds from IRS accounts to millions of private accounts) a wizard hides his true name as zealously as the ancient magicians did, and for the same reason: if an enemy knows your true name, he has power over you. The story is well written, deals nicely with the extrapolation of technology, and avoids any computer gaffes. Recommended for SF- Computer types. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Mar 1981 1:32:03 EST From: Ralph Muha Subject: Why we read the stuff The following painful paragraphs are taken from "The Uses of Fiction: A Theory," an essay by Thomas M. Disch which can be found in the collection "Fundamental Disch" [Bantam 1980], edited by Samuel R. Delany. "Science fiction is read most avidly by precocious children, brainy adolescents and a particular kind of retarded adult. What these readers have in common is a need to assert the primacy of Intellect. The message that comes through in tale after tale is that it pays to be intelligent, and this is true at all levels of literacy, from sub to ultra. Fantasies about sex and money are relatively scarce and, where they do exist, invariably feeble. The story that tears at an sf reader's heart (or cerebellum) is the story about someone (a child especially) who discovers that he possesses Secret Mental Powers: Theodore Sturgeon's More Than Human, Arthur C. Clarke's Childhood's End, anything by A. E. van Vogt. What sf fans require in their heroes they applaud in themselves as well, and the most zealous of them congregate annually in convention halls to do honor to the peculiar and elusive genius that raises them above people who like other kinds of junk. "Now there is one life-situation in which it is essential to be smart, smarter, smartest. Say you're fourteen years old, pulling down good grades at school (but never good enough), and already beginning to get anxious about college. In that situation your hero won't be Billy the Kid. Sf writers are cheerleaders of the Science Honors Society, whose membership they ever and again remind that the rolicking lamb of Youth must and should be sacrificed on the gray altar of Education. So long as this sacrifice remains the secret sorrow of one's life, so long will sf remain interesting. Usually, once you get your degree and start leading a livelier life, you stop reading the stuff. But if for any reason you don't get the degree or the degree doesn't get you what you thought it would, then you may be doomed to spin the wheel of this one fantasy forever. "In this way a predilection for genre fiction is like a sexual perversion. Both are symptomatic of an arrested development--not so much reprehensible, therefore, as limiting. The limitation may be as narrow as liking nothing but Georgette Heyer or high-heeled shoes, or as broad as a promiscuous acceptance of all kinds of trash whatsoever, to the exclusion only of what is wholesome and abiding." Reactions, anybody? ------------------------------ Date: 4 Mar 1981 1251-PST Sender: LEAVITT at USC-ISI Subject: Washington Post SF reviews From: Mike Leavitt As those of you in the Washington, DC area may know, the Washington Post Sunday edition features SF reviews in their Book World section the fourth Sunday of every month. They have a reasonable review of a few recent SF books, usually by a real SF author. Recently I wrote them just to thank them and to hope that they keep up the good work. I received a response from Michael Dirda, Book World's deputy editor, thanking me, and hinting that other similar comments would be most welcome. Negative internal reactions to the column were definitely indicated. If you've enjoyed the column, you might wish to write [of course, not mentioning SFL] them of your feelings. The address is 1150 15th St., NW, Washington, DC 20071. Dirda closes his letter: "Coming attractions include Michael Bishop, Alexei Panshin, Tom Disch, Harlan Ellison and Fritz Leiber." Mike ------------------------------ ZEMON@MIT-AI 03/03/81 08:22:25 Re: book/story queries, SW-radio The story that has the two parts (1. Crashed spaceship, dying crew making micro-humans; 2. Micro-humans struggling to survive in a puddle of water.) was written by James Blish, and appears in both his book THE SEEDLING STARS, and the SCIENCE FICTION HALL OF FAME. The story's actual title has escaped me, however . . . . Some books on tapeworms are : THE ADOLESCENCE OF P-1 (In which a tapeworm gets loose and invades every IBM 360/* system in the country that has a telephone link.), and WEB OF ANGELS by John M. Ford (A galaxy-spanning civilization is linked with a computer network. A 'geisthound' is the meanest tapeworm you'd ever meet -- they kill errant programmers by pumping millions of volts into their terminals. I \highly/ recommend this book.) Last summer SF-LOVERS had a long discussion about computers in sf. Cordwainer Smith's short story SCANNERS LIVE IN VAIN has absolutely nothing to do with the movie SCANNERS. The short story involves what happens when a group of superhuman cyborgs (scanners), used for crewing space ships in the 'up and out,' become obsolete. (I think that this story also appears in the SF Hall of Fame.) I have heard that the SW-radio storyline is supposed to start \before/ that of the movie. They did a quick interview with the producer (on NPR's All Things Considered) and he expounded the fact that they have taken a 2 hour movie and made it into 13 half-hour segments. I imagine that (even though the bandwidth of radio is less than that of a movie screen) they have expanded the story. Remember : "The pictures are better on radio." -Landon- ------------------------------ Date: 4 Mar 1981 1535-PST From: Tovey@SUMEX-AIM Subject: Scanners; favorite unknown sf Scanners Live In Vain is by Cordwainer Smith (it's the first story in "The Best of Cordwainer Smith", Ballantine Books), not Lem. It is about people who have been transformed into half-machines needed for crossing the interstellar void. Their "scanning" ability is akin to the sense of perception in the Lensman series and has little to do with the movie. Also, a reminder to send your favorite obscure sf and fantasy titles to me at or.tovey@SCORE. I have collected most of the ones mentioned in the digest (e.g. Apeman, Spaceman; The Hole in the Zero). good reading, cat ------------------------------ Date: 4 Mar 1981 13:51:34-PST From: ihnss!hobs at Berkeley The story "Scanners Live In Vain" is not by Lem, but was an early story by Cordwainer Smith (Paul Linebarger). It has nothing to do with the movie "Scanners", as it was about a group of men whose sensory inputs (except sight) had been cut off. This was necessary because a normal person could not stand "the pain of space", and the only way that one could do space travel was by becoming a "scanner" (so called because they would constantly scan instrument boxes on their chests to monitor their bodily functions). However, someone has just obsoleted the scanners by devising a shield (made from oysters) that allows ordinary people to go into the "up and out," and the scanners do not like this. It was not one of Smith's better stories, but some of his magic as a story teller does come through. John Hobson ihnss!hobs at Berkeley ------------------------------ Date: 3 Mar 1981 22:29:39 EST From: Ralph Muha Subject: Scanners Live in Vain The movie SCANNERS has absolutely no connection the story "Scanners Live in Vain," which was written by Cordwainer Smith (a pseudonym for the late Dr. Paul Linebarger), not Stanislaw Lem. Linebarger, an Asian scholar who grew up in China and was the godson of Sun Yat Sen, produced a body of work which is today held in high regard by the SF community. His major novel, "Norstrillia," is available in paperback and is highly recommended reading! ------------------------------ Date: 03/03/81 1344-EDT From: THOKAR at LL Subject: Reply to yesterday's story query Vanessa, There are actually two stories written in this universe. The author is James Blish and both stories were written, I believe, in the 50's. The first is "Sunken Universe" which gives a minimal (arrgh!) prologue on the crashed ship. The bulk of the story concerns the survival of the sub-miniature humans in a war against rotifers. The second story, "Surface Tension" is, in my opinion, the better of the two (though both are truly excellent). It deals with the attempt to build a ship to cross the "empty vacuum of space", in this case, air. The humans construct a water tight ship to carry them from one universe to the next, i.e. from one puddle to the next. A monumental under- taking and a tribute to the human spirit. Both stories have been favorites of mine for years and are always a good re-read. Enjoy, Greg ------------------------------ Date: 3 Mar 1981 1714-PST From: CSD.KDO at SU-SCORE (Ken Olum) Subject: Here's the title The story described by OTTO.ES is in The Seedling Stars, by James Blish, I believe. The book contains 4 similar stories about people designing intelligent life-forms for non-earthlike planets, of which the one OTTO describes is the 3rd or 4th. The germ-plasma for designing colonists has been destroyed in the crash so the crew alters themselves (by a cloning process, I think) to be microscopic to be able to live on the planet. Ken ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 6-MAR "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #60 *** EOOH *** Date: 6 MAR 1981 0538-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #60 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Friday, 6 Mar 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 60 Today's Topics: SF Books - Valis, SF Magazines - Journal of Irreproducible Results..., SF Movies - Star Wars 4A - New Hope, SF TV - Outer Limits query, SF Radio - Star Wars, Society - Creationists... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 Mar 1981 1256-PST From: Stuart McLure Cracraft Subject: more on VALIS Very weird. But pretty good. The religious rambling gets rather tiresome in places, but much of the other philosophical discussion is interesting. Don't be mislead by the paperback cover depicting a rocket. This is NOT an action novel. More like a protracted philosophical discussion among various PKD friends, PKD's alter ego, and PKD himself. There's a lot of soul-searching and talk about God/reality/universe/etc. What amazes me is how he keeps it interesting, since normally this kind of stuff puts me to sleep instantly. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Mar 1981 0002-EST From: MLEASE at BBNC (Michael V. Lease) Subject: Journal of Irreproducible Results... I saw a mention of the Journal of Irreproducible Results in the latest OMNI (& have seen other mentions in the past), & would like to know where I can get my hands on it. Please reply to MLEASE@BBNC, not to the list. If anyone else is interested, I will forward the info to them privately. Thanks, Mike Lease ------------------------------ LARKE@MIT-ML 03/04/81 21:24:46 Re: Star Wars 4A- New Hope Whatever you choose to call it, you can see it again very soon. LucasFilms is going to re-release it for two weeks sometime next month. We can see at that time whether the title is all that got changed, or if they pulled some tiny editorial switches too (as happened, you recall, shortly after TESB got into circulation.) And speaking of TESB, *it* comes back to theatres in July... Larry ------------------------------ Date: 5 Mar 1981 1629-PST From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE Subject: outer limits duplicate man query I remember seeing an episode of either Outer Limits or TZ in which a man gets his wrist hurt in an accident and is shocked to see that he is a robot. On reading Lauren's guide (thanks!) I wonder if this was the Duplicate Man episode. Can anyone tell me if this is so? --cat ------------------------------ Date: 4 March 1981 22:12 cst From: VaughanW at HI-Multics (Bill Vaughan) Subject: SW radio in Phoenix Sender: VaughanW.REFLECS at HI-Multics Star Wars radio begins in Phoenix on Sunday 8 March at 12:00 noon. It will be broadcast on KMCR, FM 91.5. ------------------------------ PCR@MIT-MC 03/04/81 07:32:06 Re: Review of Star Wars radio show Part 1 I heard the first episode of the SW radio program last night. Nano-review: Good. Excellent sound effects. The story covered a lot that wasn't in the movie/book. Micro-review: This program detailed a bit of Luke's life on Tatooine before the droids come in into his life. He runs around with some of the other teenagers that live in the area, (we actually hear GIRLS talking!) races an obnoxious fellow (using skyhoppers), sees the space battle (as detailed in the book), and generally sets the stage for the remains of his life on Tatooine. In general, it was very well done. The voices express emotion very nicely, sound effects are very very good. (A friend thought it might be a bit over-done. I agree, a bit. After all, this is RADIO theatre, and there's no visuals, so the producers have to compensate.) Overall, I consider it well done. ...phil ------------------------------ Date: 5 Mar 1981 1506-PST From: Yeager@SUMEX-AIM Subject: Creationists... The latest "creationists" flame in California inspired the following (A rephrasing, but none-the-less amusing one, of Russell's paradox) Bertrand: "So, you say god, and not humankind, inspired the bible." Creationist: "Yes, the Bible is Divinely inspired!" Bertrand (smiling to himself): "Well then, am I correct in assuming that you believe god can only, and in fact, must inspire all books that are not self-inspired." Creationist (Trembling with fears of God inspiring Gothic novels): "Of course!" Bertrand (Chuckling to himself): "And, of course, god has a self?" Creationist: "Well, we are created in His image, and we have a self." Bertrand (Thinking to himself, if these guys would only take my class in logic!): "Then, my good Man, who inspired the bible? For if god inspired the bible, then it is self- inspired, and therefore, god did not inspire the bible. But, if god did not inspire the bible, then it is not self-inspired, and there- fore, god inspired the bible!" Creationist: (Somewhat Aghast) "mumble..." Bertrand: (Raising the index finger of his right hand) "Thus, we can conclude, god inspired the bible, AND god did NOT inspire the bible!" Creationist: (Stalking out of the room) "GOD can do anything!" Bertrand: (Calmly lighting his pipe) "Yes, everything follows from a contradiction!" Corallary: The creationists arguments prove they evolved from the apes, personally, I started with Australo-pithicus. Enjoy, and all that! Bill. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 7-MAR "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #61 *** EOOH *** Date: 7 MAR 1981 0616-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #61 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Saturday, 7 Mar 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 61 Today's Topics: SF Books - Why We Read the Stuff & VALIS & American Book Awards, SF Movies - Ralph Bakshi (Wizards and The Lord of the Rings), SF TV - NOVA, Society - Creationists ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 6 March 1981 10:05-EST From: Gail Zacharias Subject: Why we read the stuff Gee. Only in America ... would people be looked down on for liking fantasies of great intellect more than fantasies of sex and money. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Mar 1981 09:58 PST From: Pettit at PARC-MAXC Subject: Why we read the stuff I pretty much agree with Disch, though I think he puts it rather harshly for dramatic effect. There's a lot to like in good SF, but liking ONLY SF is indeed limiting. Much mainstream fiction is every bit as entertaining and enlightening, if not more. Exploring ideas about alternative realities can be a mind-opener, but so can exploring the intricacies of this reality, with its complex social structure and personal interactions. Readers who cannot appreciate fiction set in our own world are probably not fully socialized. This applies to those who read only mystery novels, gothic romances, or any other highly stylized genre, as well as those who restrict themselves to SF. Which brings up something that I've been wanting to say for a while. Namely, I can't stand the appelation "mundane" for mainstream literature and art. True, its primary literal meaning is "relating to the world", but it has long had depracatory connotations of "hum-drum, unnoteworthy". Consider Webster's Unabridged's definition: "1 a : of, relating to, or characteristic of the world: characterized by human affairs, concerns, and activities that are often practical, immediate, transitory, and ordinary b : belonging to the world and having no concern for the ideal or the heavenly ". Of all those quotes, only the last one is not mildly disparaging, and I have the feeling it was included to illustrate a correct but untypical usage. It's no wonder that science fiction isn't accorded much respect by a literary world it labels "mundane". Teri ------------------------------ LEOR@MIT-MC 03/07/81 03:28:09 Re: VALIS There are several reasons VALIS held my interest, despite the long-winded philosophical rationalizations (which usually put ME to sleep too, Chip, except they also CONFUSE the hell out of me...): a) If you take Charles Platt seriously in "Dream Makers" (and I've been given reason to doubt Platt's credibility) then PKD really did experience what he believed to be a "VALIS" (or in this case simply a higher intelligence) invading his head. Platt's profile draws a condescending picture of PKD as a brilliant but clearly deranged individual; in reading VALIS, I was never quite sure whether Dick was being autobiographical or not. I'm still not sure, but if Dick hasn't got any better an explanation for what he experienced than the one finally proferred in VALIS, at least the book seems to indicate that he's still LOOKING for a rational explanation. b) Tending toward a rather depressive disposition myself, many of Fat's problems struck really close to home--and this kept me fascinated despite the painful nature of it. All the little tidbits of awkward relationships dissected made sifting through the religious references worthwhile. Like I said before, somehow he just gets AWAY with it... -leor ------------------------------ Date: 06 Mar 1981 1008-PST From: Jim McGrath Subject: Nominees Announced For American Book Awards NEW YORK (AP) - The nation's publishing and literary community has nominated 80 hardcover and paperback books for honors in the second annual American Book Awards. Winners will be announced April 30. The nominees, chosen in 10 categories from over 1,000 titles submitted, are: ... Science Hardcover: ''The Abyss of Time'' by Claude C. Albritton Jr.; ''The Wooing of Earth'' by Rene Dubos; ''Galaxies'' by Timothy Ferris; ''The Panda's Thumb'' by Stephen Jay Gould; ''Cosmos'' by Carl Sagan. Paperback: ''Broca's Brain'' by Carl Sagan; ''The Big Bang'' by Joseph Silk; ''Black Holes'' by Walter Sullivan; ''The Medusa and the Snail'' by Lewis Thomas; ''Sociobiology'' by Edward O. Wilson. ------------------------------ Date: 06 Mar 1981 1009-PST From: Jim McGrath Subject: Ralph Bakshi By Roger Ebert (c) 1981 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service) CHICAGO - The last time I saw Ralph Bakshi, he was morose, distracted, depressed. This time he was so happy he could barely stay seated. I wondered if he resembled the characters in so many of his films, those animated excursions into manic-depression like ''Fritz the Cat'' and ''Heavy Traffic.'' He said, no, it was merely that he was ecstatic. ''The last time you saw me, my career couldn't have been in worse shape,'' he said. ''I had two hits-'Fritz' and 'Traffic'-and I had been robbed blind of all of the profits. I had finished a film named 'Coonskin' that was shelved, allegedly because it was racist. I had almost finished a movie named 'Hey, Good Lookin'' when production was halted on it. My company was bankrupt. Nobody wanted to hear about animated films. You could say things looked dark.'' But then Bakshi came back with two box-office hits in a row: ''Wizards,'' an excursion into sword-and-sorcery fantasies, and his version of ''Lord of the Rings,'' which eventually grossed more money worldwide than any other animated film ever. ''They were both financial successes,'' he said, ''and they put me back in business. They were not necessarily emotional successes.'' What do you mean? ''They were good films, but they were not Bakshi films,'' he said. ''I began to fear that I would spend all my life making fantasies. That's been the fate of so many animators. What I've always wanted to do is use animation to deal with reality. To tell stories about real people in real places. To touch life.'' That is what Bakshi has tried to do in ''American Pop,'' his newest movie. He follows an immigrant family through its first four generations in America, from the great-grandfather peddling songs on Tin Pan Alley as a kid, to a grandson who self-destructs as a rock star and a great-grandchild left awash in the ruins of the drug culture. He also created a version of street reality in the ill-fated ''Coonskin'' (1974), an animated film that used popular images and music to create a world of black America. Since the only other animated film to deal even vaguely with blacks was Disney's patronizing ''Song of the South,'' Bakshi was proud of his attempt to capture black society. The film was savaged, however, by the few critics who saw it. They charged him with racial stereotyping (which was undoubtedly true) and racism (which is another matter, and highly debatable in the case of ''Coonskin''). The film was withdrawn and has hardly been seen. ''But I'm bringing it back,'' Bakshi vowed during his visit here to promote ''American Pop.'' He said ''Coonskin'' had been all but written off when the Film Center of the Art Institute of Chicago scheduled a screening a few months ago. ''The audience response was very positive,'' Bakshi said, ''and they were able to see that the movie was made with love and affection, not racism. I own the rights to 'Coonskin,' and on the basis of that screening and the fact that 'American Pop' is a box-office hit, I'm renting a theater in Times Square and showing 'Coonskin,' and I am going to prove for once and all that blacks love the movie, no matter what anyone says.'' He spoke with a ferocious intensity, chain-smoking cigarettes, but the fact was, he did look happy. That was a victory because the animator's world is a lonely one. He makes his movies entirely within his head and his studio. He does not deal with human stars, with locations, or with photography in the ordinary sense. He works two years on a movie and can't even see what it looks like until the parts are assembled a few months before the release date. ''Martin Scorsese doesn't have to educate people that stories can be told in live action,'' Bakshi said, ''but I have to educate people that 'animated' doesn't mean 'children's film.' With 'American Pop,' I've done some new things. The animation includes realistic facial expressions and body movements, and great attention to character. It's not enough just to animate. You have to tell a story. It's like with the early days of color: They thought it was a triumph just to get color on the screen. With animation, same way: If it moved and looked good, it was good.'' Bakshi is currently the only successful large-scale producer of animated films outside the Disney studios. But he believes the 1980s will see an explosion in animation. ''It's all in the economics,'' he said. ''A good, top-quality animated film costs something like $4 million-that was the budget for 'American Pop.' It used to be you could make a low-budget, live-action film for 2 to 3 million. Now, with inflation, you can't touch one for less than 5 (million). That's a cheap film, but it's the best animation money can buy. I went to see 'Popeye' and I was amazed that they were taking live characters and making them look animated. We're doing the reverse, equally unexpected: We're taking animation and using it to create real characters.'' ------------------------------ Date: 6 Mar 1981 20:43:11-PST From: Cory.root at Berkeley Subject: Dinosaurs and the Meteorite Theory Since I remember a debate recently about the theory that a meteor impact with the earth killed off the dinosaurs, I will point out that the next NOVA show here is going to be on that self-same theory. That's at 21:15 10 March onn KPBS, and is called "The Asteroid and the Dinosaur". Those of you unfortunate enough not to live in the San Francisco Bay Area will have to look it up for yourself. Ken ------------------------------ KARIM@MIT-MC 03/06/81 09:05:17 Since I don't think anyone will respond in behalf on the "cre- ationists" (all you Christians out there in Arpaland raise your right hand), I think I will. After all, isn't this whole about equal time? I have never met Bertrand Russell (RIP, wherever you are), but I did see a few pages of one of his books once (the name escapes me). The holes in "Russell's paradox" are as follows: <1> I am not sure ONLY God "can inspire all books that are not self-inspireed. This depends on <2>. <2> I am not sure "god has a self". Define "self" and I will tell you, to the best of my ability: a) whether God has a self b) whether he doesn't c) whether I can tell you based on the Bible or not. If not, what I will be basing my judgement on. You see, old Bert is pretty sharp. He puts the flaws in the Creation- ist's point of view, and lets "Bertrand" tear it apart. Another thing, I hate to awaken Bert to this, seeing as he's so set in His ways, but Logic doesn't fix everything. Trying to explain the creationist viewpoint by Logic is like trying to explain why your favorite flavor of ice cream is chocolate using MACSYMA. It doesn't apply --- and if you try to make it apply, it may not show you the truth. "For God, IN HIS WISDOM, made it impossible for people to know him by means of their own wisdom." Thing is, I wouldn't get so bloody serious about if if people weren't taking the "none-the-less amusing" so-called paradox seriously. Give me a break! Taking a break, Hoo-haa, Karim ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 9-MAR "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #62 *** EOOH *** Date: 9 MAR 1981 0519-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #62 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Monday, 9 Mar 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 62 Today's Topics: Administrivia - Missing Digest, SF Books - The Restaurant at the Edge of the Universe & Why we read the stuff & "Surface Tension", SF TV - Twilight Zone query answered & NOVA, SF Radio - Star Wars, Society - Creationists ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 4 March 1981 0220-PST From: The Moderator Subject: Administrivia - Missing Digest A combination of circumstances prevented the appearance of a Sunday digest this weekend. Rest assured that no one has missed anything. Jim ------------------------------ Date: 07 Mar 1981 1755-PST From: Richard Pattis Subject: If you liked "The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy"... ... you'll be interested to know that "The Restaurant at the Edge of the Universe", (or some other such name--its sequel), is now out in paperback. It has a hefty $3.50 price tag. Rich ------------------------------ Date: 8 Mar 1981 (Sunday) 1324-EDT From: WESTFW at WHARTON-10 ( William Westfield) Subject: Why we read the stuff "What these readers have in common is a need to assert the primacy of Intellect. The message that comes through in tale after tale is that it pays to be intelligent, and this is true at all levels of literacy, from sub to ultra." Of course, all of us realize deep down inside that once you get out of school and get a job, such things as intelligence and education are completely useless, and indeed, a handicap in dealing with the "Real World". I suggest we all stop fooling around and try to rework our interests to be all sex, violence and money. Bill Westfield PS. Thanx to whoever came up with the idea for and [ stands for Enter Sarcasm Mode, while refers to Leave Sarcasm mode. These were new additions to the ASCII standard character set recently proposed by various people on the ENERGY mailing list. - Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 7 Mar 1981 2037-PST From: Yeager@SUMEX-AIM Subject: RE:why do we read the stuff? What is all of this nonsense about the "maturity" or "social adjustment" of someone being defined by the genre of literature they prefer? It reminds me of a story ...... It was a quiet Spring evening and nearly everyone on E. 7th St. had settled down to do whatever they did to regenerate themselves for the next day, nearly everyone but the Pribhams... "Listen, dad, I am going to marry Gloria, whether or not you and mom give your consent, I love her and that is that!" fumed Robert as he stormed out of the house, slamming the door behind him. "Beatrice, what shall we do, what shall we do," bemoaned Robert Sr. "We've given our all to that boy, and how does he repay us?" "How, Robbie, how?" "He's running off to marry one of THEM. My god! Our posterity is doomed!" "Yes, dear, and, and, think of the children, I mean who would accept the poor urchins, victims of such a mixed marriage," said Alice, breaking into tears. "Well, chin up dear. Remember, we are from sturdy stock, and have survived worst catastrophes than this one." With that remark Robert took Alice's hand, and led her into their library. Wall upon wall of books. All leather bound, and first editions. A person of literature would find each respected genre well represented, every genre except, ta dah, science fiction and fantasy...(tremble) "Yes, dear, have faith in our genres. And if Robert Jr. has decided to marry someone who reads exclusively from...from... that other one, we'll survive without him," said Robert Sr. with pride, and determination. "Yes, dear, I guess you are right. One must only associate with those who read from the proper genre. What could be more important than that?" said Alice lighting the candles in their library, and kneeling before the collected works of Henry Miller, kneeling, and stroking the leather binding with her extended forefinger.... Some years later in a small cottage in Western Washington we find Robert Jr. and Gloria, and their five children huddled in a dark room. Their faces appear ghost like in the glow of their CRTs. They're reading the daily SF-Lovers digest. Suddenly, the silence is broken by a shout from Ian, their 4 year old. "Where does that guy from MIT-AI get off! Time travel is not only possible, but, according to my brother, Robbie, he's already formulated what is necessary for FTL travel to the nearest naked sigularity." "Right on Ian!" shouted Robbie. Then the room again was silent. Gloria and Robert took a break, looked at each other, and smiled, as they watched Ian feverously type his reply to that guy from MIT-AI.... Enjoy, gang, As ever, Bill. ------------------------------ Date: 8 MAR 1981 0159-EST From: EMERSON at HARV-10 at MIT-AI The story about genetically altered microscopic colonists living in puddles is called SURFACE TENSION and is by James Blish. It was voted one of the 15 greatest science fiction stories ever written prior to the beginning of the Nebula Awards (1965) by the SFWA (Science Fiction Writers of America). It is reprinted in the anthology inspired by the SFWA vote: THE SCIENCE FICTION HALL OF FAME (Vol I) ed. Robert Silverberg. It and other stories about genetically altered men (call Pantropes) are also contained in Blish's book THE SEEDLING STARS. -- Allen Emerson ------------------------------ Date: 7 Mar 1981 0155-PST (Saturday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: the man who learned he was robot A recent digest message asked about an episode of Outer Limits/ Twilight Zone where a man accidently rips his wrist open -- only to discover he is a machine. This is a Twilight Zone episode: "In His Image". It was the first of the one hour episodes. It is listed (of course!) in the TZ episode guide -- but we didn't mention the robot part since I considered it a spoiler. However, considering that few of you will ever have a chance to see this episode (unless, perhaps, you come to one of my TZ film festivals -- if I ever manage to have another one), it seemed reasonable to dispurse the facts at this time. It was a pretty good episode by the way. --Lauren-- ------------------------------ Date: 8 Mar 1981 0849-EST From: DAA at MIT-DMS (David A. Adler) The NOVA special entitled 'The Asteroid and the Dinosaur' will also be aired in the Boston area on Tuesday March 10 on channel 2 at 8:00pm. A repeat will be aired on channel 44 at 5:00 pm on March 15. David Adler ------------------------------ Date: 8 March 1981 1121-EST (Sunday) From: Mike.Fryd at CMU-10A (C621MF0E) Subject: SW radio & satellite Be the first on your block to hear the Star Wars radio show. Star Wars comes beaming down from the NPR satellite every Monday morning at 9:30 am EST. for those of you who aren't awake that early it is repeated twice throughout the day (last show at 10:30 pm est.) you have to be quick. "The Making of Star Wars for Radio" and episode 1 have already been downloaded to the NPR earth stations, with episode 2 scheduled for March 9. -Mike Fryd ------------------------------ Date: 7 Mar 1981 17:05 PST From: Ayers at PARC-MAXC As has been said ... "A Socratian dialog is not a game that two can play." Bob ------------------------------ Date: 7 Mar 1981 1049-PST Sender: LEAVITT at USC-ISI Subject: Bert and the Creationists From: Mike Leavitt I, too, hold no brief for the creationists, but a quick tour of "Godel, Escher and Bach" (order right?) will make clear (1) the nature of Russell's paradox, (2) a few additional flaws in its application, and (3) why a good creationist needn't worry about it, or its ilk. The heart of the argument is that there are such paradoxes in all closed logical systems, not just the creationists'. Mike ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 10-MAR "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #63 *** EOOH *** Date: 10 MAR 1981 0621-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #63 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Tuesday, 10 Mar 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 63 Today's Topics: SF Books - Valis & The Genesis Machine, SF Magazines - Journal of Irreproduciable Results, SF Movies - The Monitors, SF TV - Outer Limits, Society - Creationists, Spoiler - Prisoner ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DGSHAP@MIT-AI 03/09/81 15:34:57 Re: Valis I thought Valis was so much unmitigated horse puck. It's a 300 page long conspiracy hunt through piles of disconnected ramblings loosened from Philip K. Dick's mind. It's even cheap as religious fantasy. Dan ------------------------------ Date: 9 Mar 1981 2008-EST From: Rich Schneider Subject: Relativity In James Hogan's (A former DEC) book "Genesis Machine" he convinces the reader that there are no temporal paradoxes in FTL travel. He maintains this unorthodox opinion by stipulating that out 4 dimensional universe is only a shadow (Zelazny's Amber Series)??? of the true 6 dimensional or "k-space" universe. He also has strong feelings toward DOD research funding. All in all a very good book. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Mar 1981 1905-EST From: MLEASE at BBNC (Michael V. Lease) Subject: Journ. Irrep. Results... My thanks to all who responded to my message. Since I have received a large number of requests for the info, I will give that which Stan Isaacs sent me (it appears to be the most up-to-date): Journal of Irreproducible Results 2405 Bond Street Park Forest South, IL 60466 Thanks again, Mike Lease (MLEASE@BBNC) P.S.: The rates are $3.80/year. ------------------------------ Date: 09 Mar 1981 1507-PST From: Richard Pattis Subject: The Monitors I was reading a book about Second City (a comedy group/theatre in Chicago) last evening and I came across a footnote saying that some incarnation of this group was responsible for making "The Monitors". I remembered some question relating to this movie in previous SF-LOVERS, so if the question was still outstanding, it has now been settled. I'll supply the exact reference next time. Rich ------------------------------ Date: 9 Mar 1981 0003-PST From: Stuart McLure Cracraft Subject: Outer Limits returns to Bay Area Outer Limits is returning to the Bay Area on channel 20, Saturday and Sunday mornings at 1am)... the pilot episode was on tonight, and they're showing them in order, so next Saturday will be episode 2. The station manager claims that only commercial breaks will be done, with no chop-jobs or editting out of pieces here and there. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Mar 1981 1814-EST From: (Chiron of Thessaly) Subject: Ice Cream and the All Mighty Hmm... One would think that the Almighty would provide us with intelligence and curiosity so that, for one thing, we would naturally investigate the world and find out more and more that He existed and that other claimed attributes of Him were true. Therefore, it would seem unreasonable not to apply those things which we use to think about the world to religion, which includes the study of the Almighty, I imagine, and his relationship with us, and creation. One of the most powerful tools that has been developed to think about complicated issues such as religion is Logic. In fact, many religious groups use logic to present their case for creation and/or other theological issues. It seems to me that when you a have and strong and devout belief about something, there should be equally strong reasons, rational reasons, for this belief. For, after all, we are hopefully rational. This is not to say that emotion has no part in our life, it is just that when you believe some abstract idea to be true, it should always be a good thing to be able to show why you believe it; and, that just believing something on emotion can only get you so far. --Chiron ------------------------------ Date: 8 Mar 1981 at 2341-CST From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 Subject: KARIM's hand-raising request in V3 #61... ^^^^^^^^^^ "CHRISTIANS"? WHAT K*I*N*D OF CHRISTIANS? ^^^^^^^^^^^ There are "Christians" sub 1, and "Christians" sub 2, etc., on to perhaps "Christians" sub 10,000, just in the U.S. alone. Northern Baptists aren't Southern Baptists, to say nothing of the "plain" vs. "African" types. Lutherans come in diverse synods. I had a Greek Orthodox friend who wouldn't go to the same church as her Syrian Orthodox husband. And "Bible" Christians and Pentecostals are so various as to seem to have almost every congregation autonomous. Even Mormons with their short history have split a couple times, while creaking-with-age and seemingly monolithic Catholocism, even those connected with the Pope come in a dozen or so flavors, only one of which is "Roman". Plus such unaffiliated ones as the Old Catholics and the Polish National splinters. With a couple millennia to work with, people can create an awful lot of entropy along with more heat than light. ------------------------------ LIZARD@MIT-AI 03/09/81 05:56:28 SO you all are really into this Sci-Fi stuff... Well then, check out this, do :print users2; AI: LIZARD KRORNO and think about it! [ People who may wish to FTP this file may do so with the pathname AI:USERS2;LIZARD KRORNO from MIT-AI - Jim ] ------------------------------ JPM@SAIL 03/10/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last message in this digest. It refers to the TV series the Prisoner. People who are not familiar with the Prisoner series may not wish to read any further. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Mar 1981 1211-EST From: JHENDLER at BBNA Subject: Prisoner - spoiler Some friends of mine have told me that in England a special episode of the Prisoner, released sometime after the first series, revealed that our hero is, in fact, number 1. They say that the makers of this episode felt that the subtle clues in other episodes weren't enough. This episode has never been released (so they say) in this country. Does anyone know whether this episode was reall made?? Who is number one? You are, number 6.... -Jim ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 11-MAR "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #64 *** EOOH *** Date: 11 MAR 1981 0610-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #64 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Wednesday, 11 Mar 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 64 Today's Topics: SF Books - Hogan's books & The Third Wave, Society - Creationists, Spoiler - Prisoner ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 Mar 1981 at 1046-PST From: Stuart Mclure Cracraft Subject: Hogan's books Sender: mclure at Sri-Unix I would NOT recommend them to anyone who wants good characterizations. His science is nifty, but his people are unbelievable, one dimensional, and boring. We should expect more than just clever gadgetry. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Mar 1981 at 1620-PST From: Stuart Mclure Cracraft Subject: Toffler's latest => paperback Sender: mclure at Sri-Unix THE THIRD WAVE just came out in paperback and I strongly recommend it. Even if you don't agree with all of his conclusions, it is still fascinating reading, much more so than FUTURE SHOCK (at least in my opinion). ------------------------------ Date: 10 March 1981 05:08-EST From: Alan Bawden Subject: Godel, Escher, Bach Let us be careful not do too much violence to Hofstadter's book and Godel's theorem. It is not the case that Godel's theorem shows us that "... there are such paradoxes in all closed logical systems ..." A logical system that contains a paradox (such as Russell's) is inconsistent. Are we thus to conclude that all "closed logical systems" are inconsistent? This is not the case, at least for any reasonable definition of the word "closed" that I can think of. (It's not a term I have ever heard in this context.) What Godel's theorem in fact says is that any logical system that is powerful enough to say interesting things (say powerful enough to talk about the properties of the natural numbers), contains statements that are NOT decidable. In other words, one can make statements in such a system that cannot be proved OR disproved from within the system. This is different from Russell's paradox, which is a statement that can be BOTH proved AND disproved within a certain primitive version of set theory. Thus rendering that particular version of set theory inconsistent, and causing set theorists to adopt a different version of the theory. ------------------------------ JPM@SAIL 03/11/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last message in this digest. It refers to the TV series the Prisoner. People who are not familiar with the Prisoner series may not wish to read any further. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Mar 1981 1459-PST From: First@SUMEX-AIM Subject: Prisoner ending - spoiler!! The "Prisoner" was picked up and shown again by PBS stations a couple of years ago, an event which was at that time rather unprecedented (While the PBS is in the regular habit of showing British TV series in the US, it had never aired a series which originally was carried on the US commercial networks, particularly CBS. This precedent was recently continued with the airing of "Paper Chase".) With the re-airing much discussion was generated and the series was even followed by an inter- view with Patrick McGoohan, which while interesting, did not really clear up many of the enigmas. As far as I know, there were never any "new" episodes made--perhaps your friends are referring to the concluding episode, in which a not-very-subtle suggestion is made to the effect that Number 6 was in fact Number One. (Recall that when Number 6 goes to meet the hood-covered Number One, No. 6 pulls off the hood to reveal the head of a gorilla, pulls off the gorilla head to reveal the face of No. 6). This scene seemed therefore to explicitly suggest that No. 6 = No. 1, with all of its allegorical implications (i.e. we are all prisoners of our own minds, etc.). If I am wrong and there was an extra episode even more explicit, please let me know--I am of the opinion that this series was the greatest TV series of all time, Star Trek not-withstanding. --Be seeing you, Michael B. First P.S. Does anybody know of any type of "film-buffs" mailing list in Arpaland If so, please tell me at FIRST @ SUMEX-AIM. Thanx. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 12-MAR "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #65 *** EOOH *** Date: 12 MAR 1981 0602-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #65 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Thursday, 12 Mar 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 65 Today's Topics: Society - Creationists, Spoiler - NOVA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KARIM@MIT-ML 03/11/81 09:16:14 Re: Creationists...*sigh* It seems I have two things to reply to. Here goes. As far as "WHAT K*I*N*D OF CHRISTIANS" goes...you can look at things in two or more ways, usually. But I do NOT look at Christianity and say, "But look how many 'Christians`!" If one shops for a new car, it is not advisable to find yourself looking at every make and model and trying to make a choice, that is, not really. First you decide what type of car you need (or want, as the case may be) and then you work from there. In the case of religions, I don't say, "But look at how many flavors of `The True Religion`!" I ask first, "Is there life after death?" and work from there. So don't look at the tree from the wrong end, or you may see so many answers that it won't make sense. And, in a nutshell, by "Christian" I meant anyone who realize- es that humans (and themselves in particular) were in a wrong standing with the Creative Thing in the Universe (dare I call it "God" for fear of someone flaming?) and that a Very Special Person name Jesus managed to put them back in right standing. THAT is what I meant by "Christ- ian". Plain vs. African included. Secondlly, about "Ice Cream and the Almighty", I agree one hundred percent. One should depend on one's Creator to give one brains enough to him out. But what do you consider proof (of his existance)? If I was a normal human, and I said,"I'll believe in God if a meteor strikes Iceland next Tuesday and the dinosaurs come back," would you think I was being fair? God is not unfair. He will judge a person that did not see the Red Sea parting and still didn't believe in God more harshly (this is just my opinion, now) than a person who didn't see the Red Sea part and just doesn't believe in God anyway. In the same sense, He will judge a person living in America (all these "Christians") with good sense more harshly than some mentally lacking person behind the Iron Curtain who has never heard of God in the Christian sense. Like I said, it depends on what you take for proof. I'll finish the line of thought in that Bible verse I quoted. "For God in his wisdom made it impossible for people to know him by means of their own wisdom. Instead, by means of the so-called `foolish` message we preach, God decided to save those who believe. Jews want miracles for proof, and Greeks look for wisdom. As for us, we proclaim the crucified Christ, a message that is offensive to the Jews and nonsense to the Gentiles.... HE chose what the world looks down upon and despises and thinks is nothing, in order to destroy what the world thinks is important." (1 Corinthians 1.21-23,1.28) And, as far as proof goes, "God punishes them, because what can be known about God is pain to them, for God himself made it plain. Ever since God created the world, his invisible qualities, both his eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen; they are percieved in the things that God has made. So these people have no excuse at all!" (Romans 1.19-20) As for the first quote: are we the modern day Greeks? I think so. As for the second one: isn't that a bit odd,old Paul saying God's "invisible" qualities were "clearly seen"? This means (I think) That some people use their eyes too much. True, "Just believing something on emotion can only get you so far", but the tendency nowadays is to go overboard on THE OPPOSITE END, that is, as Yoda might say, you seek too much your eyes with. Feel the Force...whoops! That's getting into my OTHER letter. Y'all have a nice one, hear? Hoo-ha, Karim ------------------------------ LIZARD@MIT-AI 03/11/81 02:24:26 The file USERS2; ai: LIZARD KRORNO should be there again. Somebody or something delled it. I hope it don't happen again. So, one more time (chuckle), try a print on it, Ok? Ok! ------------------------------ JPM@SAIL 03/12/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They refer to the TV series NOVA, and particularly to the recent episode concerning "The Asteroid and the Dinosaur." In doing so some of the information presented in the episode is revealed, along with an opinion of the episodes worth. Since the episode will probably be broadcast in your area in the near future, people who have not seen this episode but who might see it on its second showing might wish not to read any further. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Mar 1981 1650-EST From: DAA at MIT-DMS (David A. Adler) Subject: NOVA: The Asteroid and the Dinosaur Last night the NOVA special concerning the sudden death of the dinosaurs was on. Other people may be yet to see it or missed it. The show seemed to rule out a meteor hitting the earth but did support evidence that a meteor could have hit in the ocean along a ridge, in this case an impact would stick out rather than become a crater. Such a place was found on the Mid-Atlantic Ridge and is now Iceland. Anyone who missed the show or who would just like a copy of the transcript should send $3.00 to: NOVA Box 1000 Boston, MA 02118 You will have to specify which show you want. David Adler ------------------------------ Date: 11 Mar 1981 1110-PST From: First@SUMEX-AIM Subject: Review of NOVA-"Dinosaurs & Asteroids" - (spoiler??) Several SFLers mentioned the airing of "Dinosaurs and Asteroids" on NOVA this week; being on PBS, it will undoubtedly be re-aired this weekend--so I feel compelled to warn anyone who missed it and is planning to watch the rerun. This was definitely one of the weakest NOVA's I've ever seen. The topic discussed by the program was the fascinating question of what happened to the dinosaurs--unfortunately, the program did little to shed light on the issue. The first 30 minutes consisted of a review of dinosaurs, which mostly consisted of an artist drawing pictures of Brontosaurus, Ty. Rex, etc. (it's amazing how the herbivores always look so lovable while the carnivores look so evil--I think it's the eyes!), followed by some crude animation of the dinosaur romping around in its artist-conceived habitat. The only interesting point made in this sequence was a discussion of how Brontosaurus has been displayed with the wrong skull for the last hundred years and only recently has the situation been corrected. The next 30 minutes was devoted to the development of the "asteroid theory" (for those who don't know, the theory proposes that a 6 mile wide asteroid collided with the earth, causing debris from the collision to become airborne, obscuring the sunlight and eventually causing the extinction of many species (esp. dinosaurs) due to disruption of the food chain) and the evidence which supports it. This portion of the program was filled with unnecessary and cheap-looking special effects (lots of tumbling-through-space asteroid shots) and "spontaneous" sequences showing the paleontologists "discovering" fossils in front of the camera. Basically the only hard evidence presented was the discovery of unexpectedly high levels of iridium (suggesting an extra-terrestrial source) in clay deposits in strata covering the dinosaur-age strata. The remaining evidence was purely circumstantial (they even shrugged off another filmed scientist's contention the his plant fossil findings seemed to flatly contradict the theory). The show ended with a scientist warning that we must be prepared for an impending asteroid collision (we are long overdue) by monitoring space for approaching asteroids and then going into space to deflect any asteroids destined to crash into us! Overall, the content of the show was quite miniscule, while special effects, animation, synthesizer-scored-music, and re-created experiments abounded. Very disappointing for a show of such usual high quality (maybe they can re-edit it and sell it to "That's Incredible"). --Michael B. First ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 13-MAR "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #66 *** EOOH *** Date: 13 MAR 1981 0637-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #66 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Friday, 13 Mar 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 66 Today's Topics: SF Events - San Jose Convention & Convention Calendar SF Books - Micro Reviews, SF TV - NOVA, Society - Creationists, Spoiler - Prisoner ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Mar 1981 11:06 PST From: Brodie at PARC-MAXC Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest EXTRA March 14-15, 1981 (Northern California) SILI-CON. Le Baron Hotel, North First St., San Jose. To my amazement, I read in this morning's San Jose Mercury that there will be a science-fiction convention THIS WEEKEND in San Jose. Sili-Con features Poul Anderson, Steve Perrin, and Lancelot, the live unicorn. Films include Ray Harryhausen SFX, Flash Gordon serials, Star Trek episodes, "The Thing," "The Blob," and (original) "Invasion of the Body Snatchers." Someone from Nasa will be showing films of Viking, etc. Also D&D, costumes, hucksters, as usual. Cost: $10 (Sat. $7, Sun. $6). Registration opens Saturday at 7 a.m., films & art start at 9. Call 379-8040 for more information. The 379-8040 man says they didn't get it in Locus because the Hotel wouldn't confirm until the last minute. Sounds reasonably good, though. Anyone going? Richard Brodie ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 1981 2146-PST From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE Subject: books Here are my comments about a few books recently read, for what they're worth. King Kobold by Christopher Stasheff: pretty good, but doesn't rank with its predecessor, The Warlock in Spite of Himself. The Barbie Murders (Varley): good ideas with some muddy thinking. Varley gets a neat idea for a premise and knows where he wants the story to go to, but doesn't always move there in a logical motivated way. The first story, for instance, begins a lot like "The Bomb in the Bathtub" (by ? in the 4th Galaxy Reader,I think) but lacks its "internal consistency". Titan and Wizard: both very good. Songmaster (Orson Scott Card): haunting, bittersweet. Stardance: excellent. The plot moves so well it carries you along like the melody carries you in a Schubert piece. The Einstein Intersection (Delany): not good. Delany tries to incorporate Orpheus, Billy the Kid, and Jean Harlow not just thematically, but also literally, in a futuristic setting. I don't think it makes sense. The Demolished Man: excellent, and exciting except for the fact that my edition had a definitive spoiler on the back cover. (Note the use of the past tense -- this is the only book I have ever defaced). Enough for now, good reading, --cat ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 1981 2153-PST From: Jim McGrath Subject: NOVA special On the Asteroids and the Dinosaurs will be shown again in the Bay area this saturday (March 14) at 7:45pm on channel 9. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 1981 1005-PST From: Mike Peeler Subject: What kind of fool am I? I have looked at the tree from your end (I think) and still can make no sense of it. I agree with your definition of "Christian", but not everybody is as tolerant as you about The True Religion. Christians themselves are unwilling to accept the belief in Jesus' role as the Christ as the entirety of their religion. Each branch of Christianity offers its own embellishments, which is all right by me, for variety is the spice of life. However, most of them claim to be The True Religion and rebuke all others, with the implication that they are mutually exclusive and that the Christian must choose one and renounce all others. You suggest not to look at the hordes of answers offered by the Christian tree but to first formulate my belief and then figure out to which sect that belief corresponds. Unfortunately, my religious beliefs seem to be somewhat underdeveloped compared to my other beliefs in the sense that I don't have as much reason to prefer one Christianity over another as I have for choosing jamoca almond fudge over plain mocha chip. "Just believing on emotion" simply doesn't work, because my guts refuse to belch out either yea or nay for most sects, or even Christianity in general. Sure, I ask first, "Is there life after death?" but then what? I get bogged down right then and there. There is no question of working from there. I don't ask for proof of God's existence, because, yes, that would be unfair. Proof, no, evidence, yes. I believe in a lot of things without proof. Henry Kissinger, for example. Then again, I've seen pictures of Henry. It could be true that "Ye shall not look upon the face of the Lord lest ye die", but wouldn't a false prophet say the same thing to account for the lack of support for his story? ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 1981 1322-PST From: Dolata@SUMEX-AIM Subject: Christian-nets Enough already. I don't think SF-LOVERS is the appropriate place for theology, unless it pertains directly to some SF story/movie. Dan (dolata@sumex-aim) ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 1981 1847-PST From: Mark Crispin Subject: superstition on SF-lovers Why must my mailbox - and hundreds of others - be clogged down with superstitious hogwash? The less I hear about religion and especially Christianity (that most repulsive, pornographic, blood-thirsty, intolerant, evil variety), the happier I am. I have no objections to people who wish to be superstitious in the privacy of their own homes - anything between consenting adults and all that - but I object to being subjected to proselytizing; especially in my electronic mailbox! I also object to biblical quotes. I find it interesting that you picked the letters of the Apostle Paul, which among other things advocate homosexuality (What? You don't believe me? Try careful reading, not just the selected quotes in the pamphlets your church hands out) and hatred of women (not to mention Jews). There were a lot of good Christians who were good Nazis. I cannot see why SF-Lovers has stooped to such depths. I hope the religious flamage will cease and desist. The whole thing which brought it on - the patently absurd notion that there is any validity to the creationist argument - wasn't worth the bits of disk space consumed by the flamage. -- Mark -- ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 1981 11:09 PST Sender: Brodie at PARC-MAXC From: Richard R. Brodie Subject: Calendar of Science Fiction Events Here is the SF-Lovers event calendar. If you have information about any events you would like to see added to the calendar, or are associated in some way with one of the listed events and would like to contribute, please send mail to Brodie at PARC-MAXC. ------------------------------ Calendar of Science Fiction Events As of March 12, 1980 ------------------------------ March 13-15, 1981 (Kentucky) UPPERSOUTHCLAVE XI. Bowling Green, KY. Box U 112, College Heights Station, Bowling Green, KY 42101. March 13-15, 1981 (Ohio) MARCON 16. Hilton Inn, Columbus ($36 single, $42 dbl). GoH: Andy Offutt. FGoHs: Bob & Anne Passovoy. TM: Jodie Offutt. Box 2583, Columbus, OH 43216; Mark Evans (614) 497-9953. March 13-15, 1981 (Mississippi) COASTCON. Royal D'Iberville Hotel, Biloxi, MS ($48 single/dbl, $10 ea. addl.). GoH: Jerry Pournelle; FGoH: James Madden. Cost: $12.50. Box 6025, Biloxi, MS 39532; (601)374-3046. March 20-22, 1981 (New Jersey) LUNACON '81. Guests: James White, Jack Gaughan. Sheraton-Heights, Hasbrouck Heights, NJ (marginally attainable by public from New York City). Cost: $11 till 2/28/81, $14 door. Box 204, Brooklyn, NY 11230. March 27-29, 1981 (England) FANDERSON 81. Gerry Anderson. Leeds, England. Pam Barnes, 88A Thornton Avenue, London W4 1QQ England. March 27-29 (Washington) NORWESCON 4. Hyatt, Seattle. Cost: $12 till 3/16, $15 door. Limit 1400. Under 8 free. Box 24207, Seattle, WA 98188; (206) 364-8607 or (eves) 747-6964. April 3-5, 1981 (Kansas) FOOL-CON IV. GoH: Katherine Kurtz and Michael Whelan; Toastmaster: Robert Asprin; Guest artists: Herb Arnold, Jann Frank, Robert Haas, Tim Kirk, Daryl Murdock, Real Musgrave; other special guests: Lynn Abbey, Patricia Cadigan, C.J. Cherryh, Arnold Fenner, Barbara Housh, David Houston, John Kessel, Pat & Lee Killough, Carl Sherrel, John Tibbetts; possibly Robert Heinlein, Richard Lupoff. Cost: $7.50 till 3/15, $9 after (Banquet $7.50 addl; $10 door). 10% of profits to Nat'l Space Institute; Presentation of Balrog Awards. Johnson County Community College, Overland Park, KS 66201. April 11-12, 1981 (Minnesota) MICROCON 1981. SF/Comics/Games. Mpls. Comic Conventions, Box 3221 Traffic Station, Minneapolis, MN 55403. April 18-20, 1981 (Maryland) BALTICON 15. Hunt Valley Inn, Baltimore. GoH: John Varley; AGoH: Darrell Sweet. Cost: $10 adv. BSFS, Inc., Box 686, baltimore, MD 21203. April 25-26, 1981 (Nebraska) ELECTRACON I. GoH: Ed Bryant; FGoH: Suzanne Carnival; AGoH: Dan Patterson. Cost: $7.50; $10 door. Banquet TBA. "Nebraska's first SF con." Box 1052, Kearney, NE 68847. May 8-10, 1981 (Tennessee) KUBLA'S NINTH KHANPHONY. Ken Moore, 647 Devon Drive, Nashville, TN 37204 May 9-10 (Georgia) EMORY-TREK II. Atlanta Star Trek Society, c/o Kenneth Cribbs, 2156 Golden Dawn Drive SW, Atlanta, GA 30311 June 5-7, 1981 (Arizona) PHRINGECON 2. PO Box 128, Tempe, AZ 85281. June 12-14, 1981 (Wisconsin) X-CON 5. M. P. Inda, 1743 N. Cambridge, Apt. 301, Milwaukee, WI 53202. June 13-14, 1981 (Kansas) COSMOCON II. c/o Charley S. McCue, 34 halsey, Hutchinson, KS 67501. July 2-5, 1981 (Northern California) WESTERCON 34. GoH: C. J. Cherryh; Fan GoH: Grant Canfield. Red Lion Motor Inn, Sacramento, CA; (916) 929-8855; $32 single and double, $8 addl person. Party wing. Cost: $20 till 6/14/81, $25 door. P.O. Box 161719, Sacramento, CA 95816. July 10-12, 1981 (Missouri) ARCHON V. GoH: Tanith Lee; Fan GoH: Joan Hanke Wood; Toastmaster: Charlie Grant; also Joan Hanke Wood, Wilson 'Bob' Tucker, Glen Cook, Ron Chilson, George R. R. Martin, Joe and Gay Haldeman, and Michael Berlyn. Chase-Park Plaza Hotel, St. Louis, MO ($44 single, $52 2/3/4). Soliciting program ideas and/or people who could help carry them out. Also looking for more artist names to add to the mailing list for soliciting contributions to the art show. This was successful at ARCHON IV (over 60% of artists sold works), and they are trying to expand. There will be more art show space and display panels this year. Also in the process of reviewing art show rules and would welcome suggestions. SFL liaison: WMartin at Office-3 (Amy Newell). September 3-7, 1981 (Colorado) DENVENTION TWO. 1981 World Science Fiction Convention. Pro GoH: C.L. Moore, Clifford Simak; Fan GoH: Rusty Hevelin. Denver Hilton. Cost: $35 till spring 1981. P.O. Box 11545, Denver, CO. 80211. (303) 433-9774. November 5-7, 1981 (Southern California) LOSCON '81. Huntington Sheraton, Pasadena. PGoH: William Rotsler. FGoHs: Len & June Moffatt. Cost: $10 till 7/4. LASFS, 11513 Burbank Blvd., North Hollywood, CA 91601. July 2-5, 1982 (Arizona) WESTERCON 35. Adams Hotel, Phoenix ($29 single, $5 ea. addl.) GoH: Gordon R. Dickson. FGoH: Fran Skene. TM: David Gerrold. Cost: $15 till 7/10/81 ($6 supporting). Box 11644, Phoenix, AZ 85064; (602) 249-2616. SFL Liaison: Schauble.Multics at MIT-Multics (Paul Schauble). September 2-6, 1982 (Illinois) CHICON IV. 1982 World Science Fiction Convention. Pro GoH: A. Bertram Chandler; Fan GoH: Lee Hoffman; Artist GoH: Kelly Freas. Hyatt Regency, Chicago, IL. Cost: $30 till 6/30/81; $15 supporting; $7.50 conversion. PO Box A3120, Chicago, IL 60690. ------------------------------ JPM@MIT-AI 03/13/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last message in this digest. It refers to the TV series the Prisoner, and particularly to the last episode. If you are not familiar with the end of the series you might wish not to read any further. ------------------------------ SLH@MIT-AI 03/11/81 19:08:40 Re: The Prisoner - (Spoiler) As long as this spoiler topic is up, some of you who saw the last episode (it was a double, actually) might remember that when No. 6 returns to his home, the number on the front door is "1". I'd say that's subtle. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 15-MAR "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #67 *** EOOH *** Date: 15 MAR 1981 0636-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #67 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Sunday, 15 Mar 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 67 Today's Topics: SF Events - FORWARD in Albuquerque & Science and Science Fiction & the SF Convention Calendar, SF Books - Troas and Eidetic Memories, SF Radio - Impact on Public Radio ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 MAR 1981 2318-PST From: FORWARD at USC-ECL I will be in Albuquerque on business next week (16-18 March). Is the intersection of the set of Albuquerquians and the set of SF-LOVERS a non-null set? (I hope that didn't show my ignorance of set theory jargon -- I only picked up what I could checking my kids' homework.) Bob Forward [Please send your responses directly to Bob, who is FORWARD@USC-ECL, not to SF-LOVERS. - Jim] ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 1981 1517-PST From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE Subject: sf event, horror movie query I just heard on Newsmagazine (KCBS radio, San Francisco) that a couple of Berkeley sf-enthusiast scientists will be doing a 6-week presentation on "Science and Science Fiction" at the Academy of Sciences, Golden Gate Park. Among other things, they will show a horror movie which influenced the steady-state theory of the universe. The theory says that there is no beginning and no end to the universe: it just goes on and on. The movie apparently was a weird one without any beginning or end....Do you know anything about it? --cat ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 13 March 1981 19:02-PST From: CSD.KDO at SU-SCORE Subject: Calendar of Science Fiction Events Good work! Does it live in a public file somewhere? If not, it should, since It looks very useful but I don't want it in my mail file. Ken [ Good idea. The most recent SFL Events Calendar will always be available from the file AI:DUFFEY;SFLVRS CALNDR. -- Your Friendly Neighborhood Archivist ] ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 1981 08:44:28-PST From: CSVAX.wss at Berkeley Subject: Stories about Troas The story about Troas by Asimov is called ``Sucker Bait.'' It may be found in the collection, ``The Martian Way.'' An interesting feature of this story is that the hero has an eidetic memory. That started me trying to recall other stories in which eidetic memory has figured prominently. RH's ``Starman Jones'' and the short-lived television show ``The Delphi Project'' (or some such) come to mind. Can anyone think of others? ------------------------------ Date: 14 Mar 1981 1522-PST From: Jim McGrath Subject: A new life for radio? (and mainly due to SF Radio?) RADIO review By Michael Hill The Baltimore Evening Sun (Field News Service) The pictures look strange to members of the television age. People sitting around listening to the radio. Not grooving on the music, or dancing, or eating dinner with it in the background, or waking up to it, or shaving while the news plays, or having it on in the car. But listening. And not just to music and news. But to serials and dramas and comedy and variety shows, all those things that we watched on television. The pictures show mom and dad and the kids gathered around some huge wooden console, chuckling along with Fibber McGhee and Molly. Nowadays, you feel strange paying that kind of attention to the radio. What are you supposed to look at? People, used to ignoring each other while the tube demands their attention, get uncomfortable sitting there listening to the radio, diverting their gaze downward, afraid of catching another's eye. Nor are we used to using our imaginations in that way, to letting our minds create the pictures, flesh out the characters. The television does all that for us. We get nervous about letting our imagination run. No telling where it might lead. National Public Radio is trying to rekindle that kind of special relationship between radio and its listeners with a series of radio dramas that go under the umbrella title of NPR Playhouse. Two of the dramas will be broadcast on the weekends - ''Star Wars,'' an adoption of the popular movie in 13 half-hour episodes on Sundays, and ''The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy,'' a social satire science fiction work which has 12 half-hours on Saturdays. The two series began last weekend, but you can probably catch on if you pick them up with the second part. You probably won't be listening to ''Star Wars'' unless you saw the movie anyway, so you know that story. To catch up with ''Hitchikers,'' just keep in mind that in the first episode the world was destroyed to make way for an intergalactic highway project. ''Star Wars'' is a domestic product, a production of National Public Radio. It has two members of the film's cast, Mark Hamill as Luke Skywalker and Anthony Daniels as the robot C3PO. In charge of the NPR's drama program is John Bos, who ran Center Stage here in Baltimore in 1963-64. After that he worked in a theater in Philadelphia and was most recently in New York as head of the Performing Arts Division of the New York State Council on the Arts. ''Actors like to work in radio drama,'' he said of his new field. ''There's none of the problems with makeup and costumes. It can be done quickly and it's fun. One thing you have to remember about 'Star Wars' is that our version is 6 1/2 hours long so we have a lot in there that wasn't in the movie.'' Bos carries with him a satchel full of radio projects, from straight-out mysteries to sound effect mind benders. While ''Star Wars'' has excited a tremendous number of potential listeners, particularly those of a generation that's never heard radio drama, ''The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy'' clearly takes the art form closer to its limits. Like many of the best things on the American public media, ''Hitchiker's Guide'' is a product of the BBC. The guide itself is something of a handbook for travel about the galaxy, with the program telling the story of how the guide came into existence. It has the sense of humor often lacking from pretentious science fiction, using its freedom from the restraints of conventional fiction to make satirical points about current society as well as about the science fiction genre. It was a big cult hit in England. The techniques it uses will be familiar to any fans of the Firesign Theater, that comedy group that used the radio as its medium in San Franciso in the late '60s. You can do things on radio you can't do anywhere else, juxtapositions and ambiguities that allow the stories to take amazing twists. Plus, the most incredible special effects are possible for the price of a good sound man. That's because they don't have to take place on the screen or stage. They happen in the theater of your mind. Buy a ticket one night this weekend. You might become a regular patron. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 1981 3:02:57 EST (Friday) From: Ralph Muha Subject: lizard spoiler The file users2;ai:lizard krorno @ mit-ai contains two telephone numbers. Don't bother calling either one, unless you have access to free long-distance and/or a taste for infantile obscenity and gibberish. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 16-MAR "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #68 *** EOOH *** Date: 16 MAR 1981 0556-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #68 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Monday, 16 Mar 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 68 Today's Topics: SF Books - "Nightflyers" & "True Names" & Mockingbird, SF Radio - Star Wars & HGttG, Spoiler - Known Space ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 15 Mar 1981 1357-PST From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE Subject: "Nightflyers/True Names" and "Mockingbird" "Nightflyers" and "True Names" by George Railroad Martin and Vernor Vinge (ex-husband of Joan, I think) are two novellas sold together under the name Binary Star #5. They both deal with people-in-machines but "Nightflyers" takes place on a starship several thousand years from now and "True Names" on an Arpanet writ large fifty years hence. "True Names" was described here a couple of weeks ago, so I'll only add that having enormous net-hacking power in the hands of people juvenile enough to give themselves nicknames like "Mr. Slippery" and "Slimey Limey" is scary. I liked the idea of a hacker having to protect his true name, though, and the one about creating imaginary worlds by suggestion rather than the huge bandwidth of video. "Nightflyers" is better written than its partner but suffers by having to invoke the supernatural. It concerns an expedition to find a strange race of aliens that seem to be voyaging out from the heart of the galaxy at sub-light. Along the way people start dying in nasty ways. The reason was fitting and unexpected, but hard to gloss over with technical jargon. "Mockingbird" is the first novel from Walter Tevis ("The Man Who Fell to Earth") in quite a while. In it the idea of a laid-back lifestyle is carried to its logical conclusion, catatonia. People are so into respecting one another's space that it is a crime to look someone in the eye when speaking. They spend their time meditating and watching abstract patterns on holographic TVs. All real work is done by fairly mindless androids. Only three people are still awake. One is the last and best android ever made. He was given the personality of one of his designers but was made sexless ("to avoid distractions"). All the other models of his class committed suicide so he was programmed to make that impossible. All he wants to do is die, but so long as there are humans to serve he cannot. Another is a man from Ohio who has rediscovered reading and writing. He falls in with a woman who has found that the android controllers no longer need to be obeyed and together they find "feelingfulness" (love is no longer in the vocabulary). All well and good, for a novella. But in a novel you have to have a spokesman for the position you're attacking or your arguments become repititous. Since anyone reading the book probably believes that literacy is a good thing and that taking Valiums all day is not, you can only stress those points so much. The fly-leaf says that Tevis teaches a creative writing course at a state school, so the book is probably his reaction to hundreds of student zeros. Overall I'd rate "Nightflyers" and "True Names" as worth reading and "Mockingbird" as not. Support short forms of fiction; there's too much padding going on these days. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Mar 1981 12:03:28-PST From: CSVAX.dmu at Berkeley Subject: NPR programs in the Bay area Can anyone out there tell me when HGTtg and SW are on here in the Bay area? Thanks David Ungar ------------------------------ Date: 15 Mar 1981 14:01:31-PST From: E.jeffc at Berkeley Subject: The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy Is it playing in the San Fransico Bay Area, and if so, when. If it is playing, I assume it will be on KQED FM radio. I read the book and thought it was good, and I am interested in hearing it on the radio too. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Mar 1981 0742-PST Sender: LEAVITT at USC-ISI Subject: Radio drama From: Mike Leavitt I shouldn't have to mention this to this group, but the effects in SW and HGttG are substantially enhanced by turning off the lights and using a good pair of stereo earphones. Admittedly, this makes the experience a bit anti-social, but it is probably worth it. Mike ------------------------------ Date: 15 March 1981 11:15-EST From: Frank J. Wancho Subject: Radio Drama Twice a week I get kicked out of the lab in the middle of the desert at 10 pm and hit the road for the 60 mile, one hour and 15 minute trek back to civilization. What makes the time go by quickly at that hour is being able to listen to the CBS Radio Mystery Theatre, which I can pick up from Albuquerque, some 250 miles away (or some station in Nebraska or Oklahoma as well) - the local El Paso station has already run the show at 9pm. Quite a number of the stories I've heard could qualify in the science fiction category - and all well-done. Now you have something else to check out while waiting for the next episode of the weekend programs carried on NPR... --Frank ------------------------------ JPM@MIT-AI 03/16/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last message in this digest. It refers to the Known Space series of stories by Larry Niven, particularly Protector and Ringworld. People who are not familiar with these stories may not wish to read any further. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Mar 1981 12:55:39-PST From: Cory.dz17 at Berkeley Subject: Protector ... ((((( 1) Females are NOT killed by Tree-of-life. In protector Psst(pok)'s last descendant is a female Pak breeder. When she dies he has to find some reason to live and starts the whole thing. 2) The colony at Home is regarded to have failed because of an epidemic. The protectors of Home all left to fight the Protectors of Pak, after presumably sending a maser message to Earth with news of the plague. 3) Regarding Louis Wu not knowing about protectors ... he also doesn't know about the Sea Statue and half a dozen other things. The number of things he doesn't know is really phenomenal. Remember his reaction to the puppeteers at the beginning of Ringworld ... it took him several seconds to recognize the puppeteer Nessus. earth may know a lot about the Protectors, but that doesn't mean he does. I get the impression he is a bit of a dilletante (sp?). 4) I seem to recall that Niven decided to end known space because he couldn't keep track of all the threads. There was a story that I believe was by him called 'Down in Flames' where the entire future space series is shown to be a Tnuctipun Hoax. I remember hearing about it (and have wanted to find a copy of it for a long time) being published in some fanzine as a joke. Points of interest are: Kzanol (the Thrint/Slaver who visits earth) is a special once- only piece of genetic engineering, the core explosion never occurred and Beowulf Shaeffer never left Jinx in the non-existent Quantum-II Hyperdrive which was really a mockup. 5) Can anyone tell me anything about this piece of (?) fiction? Peter da Silva, in haste. [ This story was indeed published in a fanzine, although which fanzine escapes me (and my library) at the moment. If someone can pinpoint it the reference will be given to the entire readership at a later date - Jim ] ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 17-MAR "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #69 *** EOOH *** Date: 17 MAR 1981 0606-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #69 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Tuesday, 17 Mar 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 69 Today's Topics: Administrativia - Some Lossages, SF Books - NEBULA Award Nominations, SF Events - EQUICON & Science and Science Fiction, SF Books - Restaurant at the End of the Universe & Leonardo, SF Radio - NPR information & Star Wars & HGttG, Spoiler - Known Space ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 MAR 1981 2300-PST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: Some Lossages Due to an unfortunate computer error (after all, humans never make mistakes), some submissions to SF Lovers were lost in the mail. In particular, any submission made from around 20:00 to 23:00 PST on the 15th were lost. I am greatly sorry about this, but I hope that the volume of material affected was small. At least one item (the submission on the Nebula Awards from Bob Forward) has been recovered. Jim ------------------------------ Date: 15 MAR 1981 2157-PST From: FORWARD at USC-ECL Subject: Nebula Nominations NEBULA AWARDS FINAL BALLOT AS DISTRIBUTED BY SFWA (The Nebula Award Jury has exercised its option to add one work in each category except that of Short Story.) NOVEL TIMESCAPE, Gregory Benford (Simon & Schuster) BEYOND THE BLUE EVENT HORIZON, Frederik Pohl (DelRey) THE ORPHAN, Robert Stallman (Pocket Books) MOCKINGBIRD, Walter Tevis (Doubleday) THE SNOW QUEEN, Joan Vinge (Dial Press) THE SHADOW OF THE TORTURER, Gene Wolfe (Simon & Schuster) NOVELLA THE UNICORN TAPESTRY, Suzy McKee Charnas (New Dimensions 11) THERE BENEATH THE SILKY TREES AND WHELMED IN DEEPER GULPHS THAN ME, Avran Davidson (Other Worlds 2, Zebra) LOST DORSAI, Gordon R. Dickson (Destinies) THE BRAVE LITTLE TOASTER, Thomas N. Disch (F&SF, Aug) DANGEROUS GAMES, Marta Randall (F&SF, Apr) THE AUTOPSY, Michael Shea (F&SF, Dec) NOVELETTE STRATA, Edward Bryant (F&SF, Aug) THE WAY STATION, Stephen King (F&SF, Apr) THE FEAST OF ST. JANIS, Michael Swanwick (New Dimensions 11) GINUNGAGAP, Michael Swanwick (TriQuarterly, Fall) BEATNIK BAYOU, John Varley (New Voices III) THE UGLY CHICKENS, Howard Waldrop (Universe 10) SHORT STORY SECRETS OF THE HEART, Charles L. Grant (F&SF, Mar) WINDOW, Bob Leman (F&SF, May) GROTTO OF THE DANCING DEER, Clifford D. Simak (Analog, Aug) A SUNDAY VISIT WITH GREAT-GRANDFATHER, Craig Strete (New Dimensions 11) WAR BENEATH THE TREE, Gene Wolfe (Omni, Dec 1979) [ The Nebula Awards are given by the Science Fiction Writer of America (SFWA) every year for the best work in certain categories of science fiction. Along with the Hugo Awards (given by science fiction fandom at each World Science Fiction Convention for similar excellence) they honor the works - and people - considered outstanding in the field. Thanks are due Bob Forward for taking the time to type in these nominations from his ballot. - Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 1981 13:21 PST From: Hamilton.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Flash: EQUICON: FILMCON next month Missing from the latest con calendar is EQUICON: FILMCON, Easter weekend (17-19 April) at the Sheraton Plaza La Reina, on Century right next to LA International Airport. The flyers I got yesterday indicated that they had been the subject of many vicious (false) rumors to the effect that they were full or cancelled. NOT SO! Mail registration is $18 ($10 for children under 12) through 10 April; $25 ($15) at the door; $10 for a single day. Cheques payable to Equicon: Equicon P.O. Box 23127 Los Angeles 90023 The program includes the usual collection of exhibits (including some rarely-seen movies props), art show, masquerade directed by the L.A. Filkharmonic, fashion show, games, films (full program can't be announced until the show, due to advertising restrictions) including "SuperBman: the Other Movie" and "Blooperman: the Outtakes". Also: video room featuring Japanese cartoons, Society for Creative Anachronism display, etc., etc. --Bruce ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 1981 1733-PST From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE Subject: Science and Science Fiction Presentation I called the California Academy of Sciences (221-5100) and got the following information regarding my earlier query: Dr. Andrew Fraknoi (head of the Astronomical Society of the Pacific and editor of Mercury) and Dr. Alan Friedman will be presenting a 6 evening series Wednesdays from 7:00 to 10:00 PM on Science and Science Fiction beginning this Wednesday, March 18. Each evening there will be a lecture followed by a movie. Location: Morrison Auditorium inside the Museum of the Academy of Sciences, Golden Gate Park, San Francisco. Admission is $20.00 for the whole series and $4.00 per evening. Here is the schedule. You can call the number above for more information. March 18. "An Illustrated History of Martians". Movie: War of the Worlds. March 25. "Possible and Impossible". Movie: The Time Machine. April 1. "Giant Monsters and Shrinking People". Movie: THEM. (April 8 -- Easter break) April 15. "Life Among the Stars--Are We Alone?" Movie: The Andromeda Strain. April 23 "The Image of the Scientist in Popular Culture". (Examines the origins of the absent-minded professor stereotype, etc.) Movie: The Day the Earth Stood Still. April 29. "Astronomy in the Dead of Night: Origins of the Universe". Focuses on current theories of the cosmos. Movie: The Dead of Night. The answer to my horror movie query is apparently "The Dead of Night". --cat ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 1981 (Monday) 2214-EDT From: PLATTS at WHARTON-10 ( Steve Platt) Subject: Restaurant at the End of the Universe Last week it was mentioned that it is out in paperback. Does anyone have a publisher-name? -Steve [ Please direct your replies to Steve directly (PLATTS@WHARTON-10) and CC a copy to SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI. I will condense the replies and send out the publisher's name in an upcoming digest. - Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 1981 11:19 PST From: Kolling at PARC-MAXC Subject: Leonardo Title: If only he had a connection to the Arpanet..... Subtitle: Another Anne McCaffrey freak "He [Leonardo da Vinci] was apparently unwilling or unable to sort out priorities and seems to have been strangely unaware of the passing of time; during a Roman sojourn he is said to have happily accoutered a tiny lizard with a silver girdle and gold-wire wings to create a small dragon." ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 1981 1031-EST From: WATROUS at RUTGERS Subject: NPR information I just found an ad in Amtrak's "Express" magazine for Star Wars on NPR Playhouse. It gave a toll free number for information - (800) 424-2909 (in Wash., D.C. 785-5353). I called and got the information for the NYC area: WNYC Star wars HGttG 830-AM Mon 1930 Fri 1930 Sat 0800 Sat 0830 93.9-FM Mon 2230 Fri 2230 I also found an episode of HGttG last night (Sunday) while rolling around the radio dials. That was on WBGO (88-FM, Newark) and probably began about 2030. Perhaps Star Wars is on before that. Don ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 1981 11:44:10-PST From: CSVAX.feldman at Berkeley Subject: Star Wars radio in the Bay Area KQED-FM broadcasts Star Wars Monday nights at 6:30. Episodes 1 and 2 have been broadcast already, and episode 3 is tonight. I believe I heard somewhere that KCSM (a low power community-college operated station) is also broadcasting SW, but I don't remember the time. I don't know if HGttG is being broadcast around here, but I'd appreciate knowing if it is. Steve ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 1981 0952-PST From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE Subject: HHGtG and SW Are playing here in the Bay area on KCSM, 91.1 FM, at 11:30 and 10:30 on Sunday nights. In between they read some sf stories; last night they did "The Nine Billion Names of God". ------------------------------ JPM@MIT-AI 03/17/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last message in this digest. It refers to the Known Space series of stories by Larry Niven, particularly Protector and Ringworld. People who are not familiar with these stories may not wish to read any further. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 1981 1542-PST From: Harry Sameshima Subject: What Louie doesn't know I would be rather surprised if Louie Wu knew about the sea statue, protectors, puppeteers, and the like. How many of us can talk knowledgeably about the stock market crash, the battle of Midway, the Czech coup, or Project Mercury? ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 18-MAR "JPM at MIT-ML" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #70 *** EOOH *** Date: 18 MAR 1981 0600-EST From: JPM at MIT-ML Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #70 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Wednesday, 18 Mar 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 70 Today's Topics: SF Books - Eidetic Memory, SF Radio - HGttG, Spoiler - Known Space ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 17 Mar 1981 1503-PST From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE Subject: eidetic memory The main character in Sturgeon's More Than Human has an eidetic memory. (If anyone disagrees with me I will respond in the spoiler section.) --cat ------------------------------ Date: 17 Mar 1981 1504-PST From: Alan R. Katz Subject: eidetic memory and HGttG In Robert Heinlein's "Beyond this Horizon," Felix Hamilton wanted to be a moderator (something like that, one of the higher ups) but couldn't because he did not have eidetic memory. Things were supposed to be arranged so that his future offspring WOULD have it, so it plays an important but not crucial role in that novel. Also, I have seen 5 msgs about HGttG in the Bay Area and the Boston Area. Does anyone know when and where it is playing in LA???? Alan ------------------------------ Date: 17 Mar 1981 0635-PST Sender: WMARTIN at OFFICE-3 Subject: What you Can't know may hurt you... From: WMartin at Office-3 (Will Martin) Regarding the comment on what Louis Wu knows or doesn't know: Think of the problems we have now in trying to keep up with the current literature and state of knowledge in a single technical field. I have repeatedly heard that it is a full-time job in this or that discipline just to read the journals. Then project that information explosion into a future where you have a number of worlds, each with a cadre of beings doing research or producing information. No one could possibly hope to keep up with the literature, even given a universal language or automated translation. One of the prime industries will be digesting, and abstract publishing/distribution/compilation. There would be enormous duplication of effort, even with the most fanciful instantaneous communication imaginable, unless the people doing it were slaves of machines which had such AI skills as to realize that reseach into plant growth on Regulus V is duplicating "natural sculpture" on Zzzzzzzip (Antares VIII) or the like. I guess the most noted and highest-ranking scholars in such an environment would be intuitive generalists, who could subconsciously make links and bridge between otherwise disparate sources of data. I can see it now...the College of Intuition on Lump (Rigel VII)... And we think WE have problems... Will Martin (WMartin at Office-3) ------------------------------ JPM@MIT-AI 03/18/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last message in this digest. It refers to the Known Space series of stories by Larry Niven, particularly Protector and Ringworld. People who are not familiar with these stories may not wish to read any further. ------------------------------ Date: 17 MAR 1981 1223-EST From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Louis's knowledge (spoiler) There's quite a difference between being able to talk knowledgeably about a subject and knowing that it existed at all; it seems that ignorance of even this latter is what Louis Wu is displaying. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 19-MAR "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #71 *** EOOH *** Date: 19 MAR 1981 0446-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #71 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Thursday, 19 Mar 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 71 Today's Topics: SF Events - Cybernetics in SF, SF Books - Eidetic Memory, Spoiler - Known Space ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 18 Mar 1981 at 0145-CST From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "CYBERNETICS IN S/F" PROJECT ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ AMSLER at UTEXAS and I are working on a study of computers, robots, etc. in S/F. I'm covering \books/ (novels and collections focused on this topic), and Amsler is concerned with media. Before we introduce portions of the work we have done onto the net, we'd like to consult with any SF-Lers who have particular interest in the topic. Anyone who has such an interest and is willing to let us have some of his/her knowledge/time, please contact us directly: HJJH at UTEXAS about books.....AMSLER at UTEXAS about media. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Mar 1981 08:51 PST From: Lear.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Eidetic memories Another story involving eidetic memories is "Funes, the Memorious" from the collection "Ficciones" by the Argentine writer Jorge Luis Borges. Funes can remember literally everything he has ever seen or thought. Unfortunately, since objects at distinct instants are remembered as distinct objects, he has trouble generalizing. As I recall, it's a typical Borges story involving infinite regress and strange loops. -- Russ ------------------------------ Date: 18 Mar 1981 1837-EST Sender: PKAISER at BBND Subject: Eidetic Memory From: Peter Kaiser Story by Robert Silverberg: "The Man Who Never Forgot" in his collection MUTANTS. ---Pete ------------------------------ Date: 03/18/81 1118-EDT From: j.baldassini (gnc at mit-ll) Sender: GNC at LL Subject: Eidetic Memory In Harry Harrison's "MAKE ROOM, MAKE ROOM !", the protagonist, a detective, has an eidetic memory (it has been some time since I've read that book, I could be mistaken). ------------------------------ Date: 18 Mar 1981 11:27 PST From: Reed.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #70 Re: What you Can't know may hurt you... One thing I think is rather important relative to information distribution is the idea that its OK to have duplication of effort. A lot of people seem to have the idea that this is evil, or at least unconscionable. That simply doesn't take into account the fact that 10E6 people is a lot of people, and that is infinitesimal in comparison to the number of people who might inhabit the Solar System in 100 years (let alone Earth, Rigel VII, Regulus V, Antares VIII, etc). I think of duplication of effort in technical and other fields in the same way as I view multi-processing in the future of computers. With the advent of VLSI techniques which will allow many processors on a chip and easily designed special purpose processors, we are beginning to see something analogous to the concept of duplication of effort in a scientific field. The reason why it must be acceptable to duplicate effort is because the cost of the duplicate efforts will be far less overall than the cost of trying to keep everyone informed of the vast amount of information being produced when you have an exponential number of producers. Analogously, the cost of producing a large single mainframe which can timeshare 10E6 users is likely to be much more than producing a distributed system which handles the same problem by duplicating the computing power of a small processor over and over. In this case, duplication wins because of the size of the distribution problem. Eventually (it is already beginning to happen) there is going to be so much specialized research going on that the ability of a given researcher to keep up on every last detail is practically nil. The way to deal with this is to accept that below a certain level of detail, there must necessarily be duplication of effort. Intel makes it's microprocessor, Signetics makes it's own version, Motorola makes theirs. As Will says, the real top level of inquiry is going to have to return to the generalists, the people who can throw out all the details while still retaining the essence of the problem and then go from there. -- Larry -- ------------------------------ JPM@MIT-AI 03/19/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They refer to the Known Space series of stories by Larry Niven, particularly Protector and Ringworld. People who are not familiar with these stories may not wish to read any further. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Mar 1981 1634-EST From: G.Nessus at MIT-EECS (Doug Alan) Subject: His Own Daddy? Most of Lu Wu's ignorance does not strike me as unusual at all. I do find it very strange, though, that Louis does not know that the pilot on the mission to the hub of the galaxy was his own step-father. Perhaps Beowulf died shortly after Lu was born? ------------------------------ ACW@MIT-AI 03/17/81 23:44:14 Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #69; What Louis Wu doesn't know. At the beginning of "Ringworld", Louis Wu doesn't know about the Long Shot, which was piloted by Beowulf Schaeffer to the Galactic Core. This is unreasonable for two reasons. First, Bey always picks up a few extra bucks by selling popular accounts of his exploits, written in the first person by ghost writers. Second, Bey is Louis's foster father. Certainly Louis would have been treated to endless tales of Bey's exploits. (Louis's genetic father is Carlos Wu; his mother is Sharrol Janss.) --- Wechsler ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 20-MAR "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #72 *** EOOH *** Date: 20 MAR 1981 0642-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #72 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Friday, 20 Mar 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 72 Today's Topics: SF Books - Here's the plot, what's the title? & Generalists, SF Movies - Capsule Reviews, Spoiler - Known Space ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 18 Mar 1981 1652-PST Sender: LEAVITT at USC-ISI Subject: College of Intuition Wasn't there a story about a special breed of people called "sythesists" who made a lot of money/fame/prestige by pulling together information in an overloaded society? Title? Author? ------------------------------ Date: 19 Mar 1981 0338-PST From: Jim McGrath Subject: Capsule Movie Reviews The following are some very quick movie reviews. Does anyone have any more information, particularly on ''Earthbound'' and ''The Final Conflict''? (Note that a detailed news wire review of ''Galaxina'' appeared in the digest a while back.) CAPSULE MOVIE REVIEWS By Roger Ebert (c) 1981 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service) ''The Devil and Max Devlin''-The latest Disney picture stars Elliott Gould as a man bargaining with the devil (Bill Cosby) to have his sentence in hell commuted. This pale, insipid movie could have been programmed on a computer. Rated PG. 2 stars. ''Earthbound''-A Martian family visits Earth. Rated PG. ''The Final Conflict''-Conclusion of the ''Omen'' trilogy stars Sam Neill as Damien, the devil's son, now grown and ready to take over. With Rossano Brazzi, Lisa Harrow. Rated R. ''The Funhouse''-Kids in peril at a carnival. Rated PG. ''Galaxina''-Avery Schreiber and Playmate Dorothy Stratten in a futuristic fantasy. Rated R. Jim ------------------------------ Date: 19 Mar 1981 1628-PST From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE Subject: generalists From "The Effective Executive" by Peter Drucker (recommended): "The task is not to breed generalists. It is to enable the specialist to make himself and his specialty effective. This means that he must think through who is to use his output and what the user needs to know and to understand to be able to make productive the fragment the specialist produces....The man of knowledge has always been expected to take responsibility for being understood. It is barbarian arrogance to assume that the layman can or should make the effort to understand him.... The only meaningful definition of a 'generalist' is a specialist who can relate his own small area to the universe of knowledge. Maybe a few people have knowledge in more than a few small areas. But that does not make them generalists; it makes them specialists in several areas. The man,however, who takes responsibility for his contribution will relate his narrow area to a genuine whole. He may never himself be able to integrate a number of knowledge areas into one. But he soon realizes that he has to learn enough of the needs, the directions, the limitations, and the perceptions of others to enable them to use his own work." ------------------------------ Date: 19 Mar 1981 18:17:18-PST From: ARPAVAX.arnold at Berkeley Subject: duplicated effort Lauren's protests aside, it would be damned frustrating to spend several years figuring out something that had already been known. Ideally, an individual gets more satisfaction out of the discovery than by fame garnered by being the first, but, damn it all, it still feels like a waste of time. Ken ------------------------------ JPM@MIT-AI 03/20/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last message in this digest. It refers to the Known Space series of stories by Larry Niven, particularly Protector and Ringworld. People who are not familiar with these stories may not wish to read any further. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Mar 1981 06:40:24-PST From: Cory.cc-06 at Berkeley Subject: Louis Wu's stepfather. Is Bey Shaeffer his stepfather ? ... I remember that Carlos Wu had "an unlimited breeding license at age 18". I think that there were enough little Wus running around that you don't need to invoke the law of similarity here too. In any case, I think Bey's `child' would be named Janss or Shaeffer. Peter da Silva. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 21-MAR "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #73 *** EOOH *** Date: 21 MAR 1981 0031-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #73 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Saturday, 21 Mar 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 73 Today's Topics: SF Books - Synthesists , Society - Duplicated Effort, Spoiler - Known Space ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Mar 1981 (Friday) 1445-PST From: DWS at LLL-MFE Subject: Synthesists "Synthesists" are a recurrant theme of Brunner's. See "Shockwave Rider" and "Stand on Zanzibar". *Warning* Large doses of Brunner produce interesting effects. ------------------------------ JGA@MIT-MC 03/20/81 08:47:07 Re: Synthesists and Analysts Probably not the story you're looking for, but in Panshin's "Rite of Passage" the young heroine wants to be a synthesist when she grows up (like her father), her boyfriend wants to be an analyst. By the end of the story they each see that they are better suited to the other's choice. ------------------------------ Date: 20 March 1981 20:48-EST From: James A. Cox Subject: Synthesists The first book I read that had the concept of a synthesist in it was the Nebula award-winning <> by Alexei Panshin. The story takes place chiefly in a huge self-sufficient space ship that travels throughout the galaxy trading its scientific know-how in exchange for raw materials from people who still live on planets ("Mudeaters"). Science is very highly valued by this society, and the synthesists co-ordinate and arrange new data into an understandable form. They must have high intelligence, of course, but they must also be able to understand developments in a wide range of fields and to see the relationships between diverse discoveries. Because of this, only a very few people are qualified to enter this exalted profession. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Mar 1981 13:05 PST From: Hamilton.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: duplicated effort I think we need to distinguish between doing basic research to discover fundamental laws, and doing technology transfer. Certainly, fundamental discoveries in the physical sciences should be published galaxy-wide. But you can't just dump a relatively primitive creature in the library (even a computerized library) of an advanced culture and then expect him to quickly start standing on the shoulders of all those giants, unless it's in a highly specialized area of inquiry. Human cultural progress requires that a large body of people participate in the evolution of certain social support structures, belief systems, and emotional attitudes. Knowing where you hope to be going won't necessarily get you there that much sooner. Indeed, it may be argued that biological changes in the nature of man's aggressiveness, sex drive, etc. may be required before any of the various techno-utopias which have been written about can be realized. --Bruce ------------------------------ Date: 20 Mar 1981 1229-PST (Friday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: duplication of effort??? In the last digest, someone made some comment about duplication of efforts and said "Lauren's protests aside..." I don't recall ever protesting or saying ANYTHING substantial on this topic. Is there some confusion here? --Lauren-- ------------------------------ JPM@MIT-AI 03/21/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They refer to the Known Space series of stories by Larry Niven, particularly "Flatlander", "Grendel", "The Borderland of Sol", and Ringworld. People who are not familiar with these stories may not wish to read any further. ------------------------------ Date: 20 March 1981 19:55-EST From: Charles E. Haynes Subject: Louis Wu's stepfather. Bey's kid was named "Louis" as mentioned in some story or another. -- Charles ------------------------------ ACW@MIT-AI 03/20/81 17:15:23 Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #72;Louis Wu's parentage. Peter Da Silva objects without reading the sources. In "Flatlander", Bey Shaeffer gets friendly with a fellow passenger en route to earth. He goes by the nickname "Elephant", but is actually Gregory Pelham, whose multi-great grandmother invented the transfer booth. As Elephant's guest, he gets to know a Flatlander woman named Sharrol Janss. They fall in love but Bey and Elephant go off on an adventure for adventure's sake, whose nature is the whole point of the story but is irrelevant to this discussion. In "Grendel", we discover that by Flatlander eugenics laws, Bey and Sharrol cannot have children because Bey is an albino. Sharrol is psychologically incapable of leaving Earth. So they get Bey's old friend Carlos Wu , who has an unlimited parenthood license because he is a mathematical genius, to stand in for Bey for two years. Bey goes off gallivanting one last time, meets and falls in love with a gorgeous starship pilot named Margo something, and stays with her for most of the two years. In "The Borderland of Sol", Bey meets Carlos near the end of the two years, and we learn that Carlos and Sharrol have had two children, Louis and Tanya. I can only guess that Louis and Tanya keep the name Wu because Sharrol and Bey are proud of their kids' parentage. --- Wechsler ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 22-MAR "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #74 *** EOOH *** Date: 22 MAR 1981 0529-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #74 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Sunday, 22 Mar 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 74 Today's Topics: Administrivia - A selection of articles from OMNI for FTPing, SF Books - Synthesists, SF Movies - Earthbound, SF TV - PBS anthology series?, SF Topics - Religion, Spoiler - Known Space ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 03/22/81 00:00:00 From: The Moderator Subject: A selection of articles from OMNI for FTPing As part of tonight's Sunday Special package, SF LOVERS is moving five stories dealing with the U.S. space program, in particular the space shuttle, from Omni magazine. James Michener interviews the shuttle pilots, Omni executive editor Ben Bova and NASA consultant G. Harry Stine examine the importance of the shuttle, prospects for travel and industry in space, and the ramifications of the Moon Treaty, which covers international space exploration and exploitation. Brief biographies of Michener, Bova and Stine are also provided. The stories are copyrighted by Omni Publications, and must be properly credited, but are for use by all SF-LOVERS recipients. Everyone interested in reading this material should obtain the file from the site which is most convenient for them. If you cannot do so, please send mail to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST and we will be happy to make sure that you get a copy. Please obtain your copies in the near future however, since the files will be deleted in one week. A copy of the material will also be available upon request from the SF LOVERS archives. Thanks go to Richard Brodie, Roger Duffey, Richard Lamson, Doug Philips, and Don Woods for providing space for the materials on their systems. Site Filename MIT-AI DUFFEY;SFLVRS NASANS CMUA TEMP:NASA.NWS[A210DP0Z] PARC-MAXC [Maxc2]SFLOVERS-NASA.TXT SU-AI NASA[T,DON] MIT-Multics >udd>PDO>Lamson>sf-lovers>nasa-news-stories.text [Note, you can TYPE or FTP the file from SAIL without an account.] ------------------------------ Date: 21 Mar 1981 1211-MST From: FISH at UTAH-20 (Russ Fish) Subject: Re: Synthesists A not-yet-mentioned occurrence of professional synthesists in SF is "Billy the Joat" (JOAT = Jack_Of_All_Trades), in a series of stories by Ian Stewart, published in Analog. Specifically, the cover story of the March issue, "Paradise Misplaced", is one of the stories. (A slightly weak one, in my opinion.) The background on Billy and joating was given in an earlier story which will take some digging. As I remember it, a joat is someone with very good (perhaps eidetic) memory for the details of several of the multitudinous specialties in the galactic society. The multi-specialist is augmented by a skill in recognizing the applicability of particular disciplines or tools in circumstances outside their normal use, and/or exploiting synergy effects in combinations of techniques. The stories are quite humorous in their approach, emphasizing Billy the Joat's off-the-wall lifestyle and using the synthesist skills and galactic technology as given background. I would be interested in locating further stories in the series, or a collection, if one has been published. -Russ ------------------------------ GEA@MIT-AI 03/21/81 02:28:06 Re: Earthbound Earthbound is NOT about Martians!! It is about a family of aliens from an unspecified planet (not in our solar system). They are on a scientific journey, and their ship needs repairs. So they are forced to land in a lake on Earth. The reason some people think they're Martians is because of the impressionable deputy sheriff, who's been reading a comic-book version of "War of the Worlds" as their ship passes over. They are found by Burl Ives and his grandson, who run a hotel in the mountains near the lake. The aliens need a metal which is common on their home planet, but rare here. The aliens have several properties which are amusing: they can turn invisible by holding their breath; they are very strong; and they have a green monkey who eats light bulbs. That's all the plot I'll tell; I don't want this to get a Spoiler Warning! The "U.S. Government Computer Center" alone is worth the price of admission. The aliens learned everything they know about our society from television (their youngest son sees an elk and says that it's an insurance salesman). It does get silly at times, but not as bad as the ads might imply. I do have two questions, though: How can a movie have "guest stars"; and why, since the action of this movie presumably takes place in California, was it "filmed on location in Utah"? Gary Ansok ------------------------------ Date: 21 Mar 1981 1419-PST From: Stuart McLure Cracraft Subject: PBS anthology SF series? The SF Dictionary mentions this as a possibility for the 1981-82 season and says that the Lathe of Heaven production was a pilot for such a series. Anybody know more about this? ------------------------------ Date: 21 MAR 1981 0008-PST From: RODOF at USC-ECL Subject: Religious musings Awhile back, I was pondering the enormous fortunes amassed by those such as the Reverend Moon, Jim Jones, and L. Ron Hubbard (with peremptory apologies to any Moonies, Guyanaites, or Scientologists out there) and I decided that the great thing would be to found my own religion, sucker in millions of followers, and bleed them for all their worldly possessions. Accordingly, after much thought, I invented what I thought was a new and unique religion, not based on the simple worship of deities, and of somewhat logical form. However, I was unable to figure out any way of getting money out of anyone via it, so, being uneconomical, into the wastebasket it goes. Or rather, to SF-Lovers, which is not exactly the same thing. The first thing I wanted was some manner of explaining unexplained phenomena, and the second thing some novel method of creating the Universe, both big selling points in any religion. The third, some sort of afterlife, is so basic that no reasonable religion can exist without it. Accordingly, I came up with this. I offer it as a topic of discussion only, for those who have also pondered the infinite, and not with any sort of missionary fervor. (remember why I started this in the first place) Suppose that when a person dies, there is some sort of ghostly afterlife, a soul, if you will. Further suppose that this soul is capable of rational thought, but not of feelings, per se, as feelings are largely based on hormones, which a soul is no longer equipped with. Accordingly, though a soul can watch what is going on, (though unseen to most people), life is pretty boring. Further suppose that a soul can travel backwards in time at an advanced rate. Unable to interact with any other souls, it can, however, occupy the body of a living human. It cannot affect the body or its actions, but it can feel and experience the body's feelings and emotions. Also, an infinite number of souls can live within the same body at the same time. Given these suppositions, if you were a described soul, you could travel backward (not forward, except by the slow process of living) and live within other bodies. Who would you "visit"? Your parents, probably, and maybe a few other ancestors, but then who? How about Hitler? Wouldn't that be tempting? Imagine how many would visit him. And the variety, both admirers and haters. And these include all the dead far into the future -- what a multitude of souls he must have hosted (says the religion, which as yet is unnamed). Even though none of them can control him, all that psychic power must do SOMETHING to his aura. But the conflicts would be destructive. The result, a brilliantly insane but compelling man. However, take Christ or Moses. Far more beloved, the positive visitors would far outweigh the negatives. Thus, healing power? (I hope I'm not stepping on any toes here) and etc... Kennedy, Lincoln, et. al... isn't it interesting that with this theory the fact that a man was famous attracted his "visitors", which in turn gave him the 'aura' to become famous in the first place? Suppose some folk were sensitive to visitors from the future. Would they be considered psychic? And then, the souls, drifting back in time, gradually run out of humans. In the search for others of interest they travel further and further back, till the beginning of time (what a poetic concept) and thus, all the souls that ever live impact at the same beginning point of the universe. BANG! the universe, and Carl Sagen pointing out interesting developments along the way... Anybody have any concepts of their own? Rodof [ Just a reminder that messages dealing with religious topics should be confined, as much as possible, to thier potential application, influence, etc in science fiction or fantasy. Thanks. - Jim ] ------------------------------ JPM@MIT-AI 03/22/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following messages are the last messages in this digest. They refer to the Known Space series of stories by Larry Niven, particularly "The Borderland of Sol" and "Grendel". People who are not familiar with these stories may not wish to read any further. ------------------------------ Date: 21 Mar 1981 12:02:48-PST From: Cory.mx25 at Berkeley Subject: Louis and Tanya I remembered the events in Grendel, but I haven't read The Borderland of Sol in a long time ... sorry ... my mistake. Peter. ------------------------------ Date: 21 March 1981 1631-EST (Saturday) From: Vincent.Fuller at CMU-10B Subject: Bey Sheaffer = Step father of Louis Wu I seem to recall a conversation between Bey and Carlos Wu in which Bey mentions that he would like to go home to Terra to perhaps see "little Louis" followed by some mention of Carlos' favor (e.g. fathering Bey's son). I think this conversation took place in "The Borderland of Sol", but I'm not certain. -Vince ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 23-MAR "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #75 *** EOOH *** Date: 23 MAR 1981 0729-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #75 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Monday, 23 Mar 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 75 Today's Topics: SF Books - Budrys column & Synthesists, SF Movies - The Great Turkey Debate, SF Topics - Religion, FTP Material - Omni Articles ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Mar 1981 0209-PST From: Stuart McLure Cracraft Subject: Budrys column ''The Claw of the Conciliator''($11.95), Gene Wolfe ''Fantastic Lives'' ($15) ''Bridges to Science Fiction'' ($9.95) ''The Science Fiction of Mark Clifton''($15), edited by Greenberg and Malzberg ''Astounding Science Fiction, July 1939.'' BC-SCIFI-03-22 SCIENCE FICTION column By Algis Budrys (c) 1981 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service) It's difficult to prove who the good artists are. We speak of ''achieving recognition.'' Implicit there is an acknowledgment that much of what's said about artists, as distinguished from what's felt from artists, is at some level of popularity contest; a crapshoot (pun intended). For instance, I can tell you Gene Wolfe is as good a writer as there is today. Some of you will sniff and say ''Well, among sci-fi writers, possibly.'' All of you are entitled to ask ''How?'' One fairly reliable test is in whether an artist appears likely to leave his medium fundamentally different from the way he found it. You can look in Wolfe's ''The Claw of the Conciliator'' (Simon & SchusterTimescape, $11.95) and come away with the impression that not only speculative fiction but also prose itself are being transformed in there. ''Claw'' is the second of four volumes in Wolfe's ongoing ''Book of the New Sun'' tetralogy. The first-1980's ''The Shadow of the Torture''-is up for every possible SF award and will soon be out in Pocket reprint. ''Claw'' continues the maturation of Severian, apt young man of a million years hence who's making an artwork of his life as an itinerant member of the Torturers' Guild. If you expect to extend some prior acquaintance with the writings of De Sade, you'll have to do most of that work yourself. If, however, you'd like to see how writing can be both innovative and lucid, how a setting and a social order can be both imaginary and palpably realistic, Wolfe can provide. What he assuredly provides is one hell of a good read, a fact beside which all this foregoing taxonomy pales to its proper degree of importance. Wolfe is astonishingly, marvelously literate. This unfolding tale of a young man gripped by his extraordinary lost love is permeated with the compelling narrative power of great writing. However one may define that thing, it clearly announces its presence. I feel a little bit like a musical contemporary attempting to tell people what's good about Beethoven. Many people take SF seriously. Not all of them are equipped to do so, but among the mount of expository verbiage which so many earnest SF essayists are currently taking to the bank there is, here and there, some genuine value. Southern Illinois University Press is currently producing a great deal of that notable increment. ''Fantastic Lives'' ($15) collects new autobiographical essays by Harlan Ellison, Philip Jose Farmer, R.A. Lafferty, Katherine Maclean, Barry N. Malzberg, Mack Reynolds, Margaret St. Clair, Norman Spinrad and A.E. van Vogt. Maclean, Reynolds and St. Clair are each, in their own way, important if not popularly first-ranked figures in the movement of American SF out of the pulps and into university presses. Each of the rest is a cranky genius; kooky in some cases, the author of landmark work in all. The essays are variously informative and in some cases offer memorable insights into speculative creativity. ''Bridges to Science Fiction'' ($9.95) contains 10 scholarly essays originally written for the first Eaton Conference on Science Fiction and Fantasy Literature, held in February, 1979, at the University of California, Riverside. Bearing in mind that not all SF scholarship is uniformly pellucid, and that conference chairman George E. Slusser can only reproduce what was submitted by the conferees, this is nevertheless a recommendable book. ''The Science Fiction of Mark Clifton'' ($15), edited by Greenberg and Malzberg, collects the work of a prominent 1950s writer who was not himself a major innovator-although he wrote some very readable, high-grade pieces, all included here-but who was convinced that there was no reason why SF could not be remarkable not simply as a thing in itself but as literature. And who was right. The most fascinating volume so far in this ''Alternatives'' series from SIU Press is the hardcover facsimile edition of ''Astounding Science Fiction, July 1939.'' Made by offset reproduction from an actual copy of that seminal pulp periodical, the SIU book also includes a few words of comment and reminiscence, but is largely content to simply bring us the original package-truss ads, blotchy illustrations, filler features and all. The stories include ''Black Destroyer,'' which catapulted A.E. van Vogt to prominence, ''Trends,'' which was Isaac Asimov's first published story in ''Astounding,'' and ''Greater Than Gods,'' by one of the best writers of that time in SF, Catherine L. Moore. The price of the original issue was 20 cents. The price of the facsimile is $12.95. What price art? END nyt-03-22-81 0434est ------------------------------ Date: 22 Mar 1981 2317-MST From: FISH at UTAH-20 (Russ Fish) Subject: Re: Synthesists in SF The other Joat stories by Ian Stewart weren't so hard to find, after all... Analog, Sept. 1979 contained "The Malodorous Plutocrats, or, The Stinking Rich", and the originating story I referred to was entitled (surprise) "...And Master of One". Its subject concerned cryptography, breaking (pseudo) random trapdoor codes, and network communications. A very enjoyable story, for those who like such things. Since the original query concerned the nature and applicability of synthesists, I will quote some of the description as given in "... And Master of One": (with some ellipsis added ...) "We live in interesting times, Mr. Jarneyvore. My specialists seem to agree on only one thing: they desperately require the services of a joat. ... I take it a joat is sort of a polymath?" "Jack-of-all-trades. A dilettante in depth. Not a Specialist, but more like a broad Generalist. Without the Specialists, I'd know nothing. Without me, they find it hard to talk to each other. So usually they don't." ... "The records also say you have made important contributions to Quaternity security and research. And that you possess an incurable urge to tinker with mechanisms in ways embarrassing to those in authority. My psychologists tell me that this is a characteristic of successful joats, a price we must pay if we desire their services." Palgrandra looked skeptical. "There's a pressure toward specialization," said Billy. "To resist that you have to be naturally unorthodox; to think across conventional paths. That breeds a distrust of established authority." It is also mentioned that the prankster aspects of Billy's personality profile are mitigated by senses of altruism and responsibility for the consequences of his actions. Not a simple blend. A joat is shown as working independently to produce a synergy of his skills and information, but also with a "cabal" of specialists: a gathering of Specialists whose total competence would encompass all fields likely to be relevant to the problem. Add one joat and stir, and you have a group of people who can talk to one another and whose pooled resources have a chance of finding a solution - if there is one. To point out the infrequency of such a grouping of skills in one person, it is stated that there are 27,000 cryptologists in the sector, but only three joats. (!) How does this fit with the idea of synthesists and analysts in Pavane? -Russ ------------------------------ FAUST@MIT-ML 03/20/81 10:21:22 Re: all-time worst SF movies I don't know if anyone is still trying to compile a list of the all time worst SF films or not, but here is a candidate: The Demon Planet! I have seen worse examples of filming techniques, but this one has severe plot problems. I had an idea of what I was in for when in the first five minutes . . . The space ship is answering a distress call from an outlying planet with a team of researchers encamped upon it. As the ship nears the planet, the ship suddenly begins to malfunction, forcing it into an emergency landing. One of the crew members looses his composure and runs out of the air-lock without permission from the commander, and even worse, WITHOUT HIS SPACE HELMET ON!?! When he doesn't croak, the landing team realizes that, lo and behold, the atmosphere is BREATHABLE (thereby eliminating the need for cumbersome helmets that obscure facial expressions and make shouting at one another for help seem less dramatic). OK now kiddies, who can name 5 or 10 other SF movies with the same 5 minutes? I don't know that much else about the movie except that it was made in the 50s (the space ship has the usual CRT like control panel showing random flashes of lights and lines). It was obviously one of these "made to be dubbed" movies in which there is a minimum of speech acts and most of these occur without the camera focused on the face of the speaker. If I had to guess the national origin of the film, I would say Italy, although I can't say for sure. Anyone else seen this one? (or even care!)? Hope I haven't distressed anyone by discussing their favorite dive movie. Peacefully, Greg Faust [ A similar discussion of the worse SF movies took place last year in this digest. A transcript of those digests is now available online at MIT-AI under the filename AI:DUFFEY;SFLVRS HORRID. You are welcome to examine this file (files may be FTPed from AI without an account). The file is approximately 84 Kilo characters long. Thanks to Roger Duffey who went through the archives and prepared this file for us. - Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 22 Mar 1981 1726-PST From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE Subject: vicarious adventure Rodof's idea of souls or spirits visiting the bodies of other people to watch (rather than to possess and control) reminds me of a couple of old stories, The Devolutionist and The Emancipatrix, in which Terrans psychically visit humanoids in distant parts of the universe. The Terrans "inhabit" their hosts, sensing everything their hosts sense, but do not exert any control. Can anyone else recall stories where this happens? --cat ------------------------------ Date: 22 Mar 1981 18:33 PST From: Reed.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #74 Your religion bears somewhat of a resemblance with the theories advanced by Seth and his followers ("Seth Speaks", etc. by Jane ? ). A friend of mine got turned on to Seth. He claimed that we could inhabit any universe we liked if we imagined hard enough. (This, of course, is second nature to any science fiction fan.) Seth supposedly claims that after you die you may inhabit any soul you like. He places no restrictions on time travel, and supposedly you need not die in order to move on to another stage. Seth was discovered by Jane ? when she began going into involuntary trances and writing or speaking volumes of material. She has written more than five books of Seth transcriptions. Perhaps the hand of Seth moves you? -- Larry -- ------------------------------ Date: 22 Mar 1981 2211-PST From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE Subject: Re: G. Harry Stine's space article G. Harry Stine does not believe in special relativity. He takes the idea that no matter can go faster than the speed of light as a personal affront. He has his own theory to explain some of relativity's effects, described in a Destinies article some time back, using a cubic force called "surge". He is (literally) a loonie, so don't take his claims about space industrialization too seriously. Space processing of silicon will not bring a ten-fold reduction in the cost of ICs because 90% of their price does not go into silicon, or even a fraction of that. Yes, perhaps a purer substrate would give larger yields on large chips, but that is only one problem among many plaguing VLSI. Drug companies are not being "very secretive" about their research into weightless processing, they just aren't doing any. An article in the New Yorker a while back contained interviews with several executives who basically said they didn't want to risk investing so much into such a risky source of supply. Can't say I blame 'em. Solar power from space is not going to cost $2000 per installed kilowatt by the late eighties. Silicon cells are at best 15% efficient, so with the sort of energy fluxes you get in space you need 5 sq. meters of cells per kilowatt out. Say you could make them 100 microns thick (4 mills). Then your kilowatt of solar cells weighs about 1.2 kilograms and will cost $840 just to put into low earth orbit with the shuttle. And in low orbit you're still in darkness almost half the time; you have to go higher or into more inclined orbits to stay in the sunshine. Maybe you can get silicon from the Moon or use thin film cells, but it's really hard to see how it will be cheaper than putting the same cells on your roof. In spite of the foregoing I am in favor of space industrialization. The scientific benefits alone are sufficient reason to me to go into space, but science alone can't support the cost. We have to have a reason besides curiosity to stay up there, but the reasons Stine presents don't convince me, and from the lack of enthusiasm from American industry don't convince them either. We've been hearing this gee-whiz nonsense for a long time now without much result. There were materials processing experiments on board Skylab and Apollo/Soyuz, after all, and nobody jumped on the bandwagon. This is going to be harder and more expensive and slower than PR flacks like Stine let on. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 24-MAR "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #76 *** EOOH *** Date: 24 MAR 1981 0530-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #76 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Tuesday, 24 Mar 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 76 Today's Topics: SF Books - Beyond Rejection & First Channel & The Light Bearer & The Lucifer Comet & Operation Misfit & Sundiver & Vectors & Synthesists, SF TV - OMNI: The World of Tomorrow, SF Topics - Religion, FTP Material - Omni Articles ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 23 Mar 1981 at 0117-CST From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ MINI-REVU'S ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ SUNDIVER by David Brin (Bantam, Feb. '81) is \not/ really all that much like DRAGON'S EGG, but it had the same kind of enjoyable flavor. BEYOND REJECTION by Justin Leiber (DelRey, Sept. '80). Varley \may/ have done the body-&-sex switching thing better in "The Phantom of Kansas" (to which I am particularly partial), but this one is darned good. The writer does his Pa proud. THE LIGHT BEARER by Sam Nicholson (Berkley, July '80). I simply \won't/ read certain types of stories, e.g., with an Atlantis setting, and, usually, "Arabian Nights-ish". So I don't know why I happened to pick this one up, but I'm glad I did. The internal mythological stories were a special delight. VECTORS by Charles Sheffield (Ace, Dec. '79). As a rule, I would much rather read a novel than a book of short stories, but \this/ turned out to be one of the proverbial exceptions that breaks rules. OPERATION MISFIT by E. Hoffman Price (DelRey, Aug. '80). I used to really enjoy old pulps from a neighbor's garage when I was a kid, but when I tried to recapture that special flavor they had upon reading them as an adult, advances in scientific knowledge made it impossible. \This/ is completely palatable, and rich in that old, lost flavor. FIRST CHANNEL by Lorrah & Lichtenberg (Playboy, Jan. '81). I won't buy a book FOR its cover, but I can be put off by one, as I was the original of the first Sime/Gen novel, HOUSE OF ZEOR, which, once I made my way past the slimy-gray-and-pinkish-ness, turned out downright fascinating. Having heard the sequel, UNTO ZEOR, FOREVER, was a "downer", I skipped that one and picked up again with FIRST CHANNEL which backtracks in the temporal sequence. Satisfying. (This is an "if you like Marion Zimmer Bradley, you'll like this.") THE LUCIFER COMET by Ian Wallace (DAW, Dec. '80). I'm a devoted fan of this author even tho his pyrotechnics often leave me wondering what's going on. But the o-n-l-y thing \this/ book has going for it is the picture of the very callipygian heroine on the cover. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 1981 1005-PST From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE Subject: synthesists Got to thinking about where you might find real live synthesists and didn't have to look very hard. Specialties are cross-breeding like fruit flies in a gene lab these days. Take a nice straight-forward subject like geology. Just rocks, right? But if you wander into the geo dept. you'll see geophysics (mainly acoustics in layered media), geochemistry, and even geobotany (looking at plants to see what minerals they're growing on; I know someone who does this). We got a taste of the physics in computation from Dr. Forward a while ago, and neuro-biology has long taken an interest. I haven't seen any chemistry and computer mixes, but I wouldn't be surprised. Trouble is, I couldn't think of any specific people who normally work as synthesists. Judging by his book columns in Scientific American Philip Morrison reads and understands everything, but as far as I know his original work is only in astrophysics. Any other candidates? ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 1981 2141-PST From: Jim McGrath Subject: Omni : The World of Tomorrow From this weeks edition of TV Guide: 'Omni magazine has teamed up with two former producers of PBS's NOVA series, John Angier and Graham Chedd, to create a syndicated science series, OMNI : THE WORLD OF TOMORROW. Using a magazine format, the program will look at the development of high-technology hardware for the future...' Anyone know more about this? Jim ------------------------------ FAUST@MIT-ML 03/23/81 12:53:14 Re: new religion Perhaps the souls visiting the same body in the past (like Hitler or Christ) should call each other "SOUL BROTHERS"! Greg ------------------------------ KARIM@MIT-MC 03/23/81 09:29:45 Re: Rodof's musings from V3, #71 (sunday) I think the religion you propose wasn't really good. I take into account that you were trying to come up with something "new and improved", but your best bet for suckering hundrededs upon thousands of people out of their money is to go by the old standards, and if you want to be creative, add a few flairs of your own. The key to any successful cult is that it contains a lot of (or some, at least) truth. Or what people generally think to be truth, in the area of the would you will starting this game. A good Bad religion (as I see "Bad") will be something like Chaplain-Psychologist Raja Thomas' religion in "Destination: Void" and (ugh) "The Jesus Incident". Here we see an intelligent scientist. His true beliefs are not very finely drawn out in the books, but from what I read it must be combination of Buddhism and Christianity. When you add two religions like those, you end up losing. What you must do here is exploit the fact fact that both Christ- ians and (probably...) Buddhists think that 99 percent of all religion have \some/ truth. But you will have to sacrifice elements of both. Don't worry -- someone will believe you. Another way to go is to keep it simple (read: vague and fuzzy). Your best bet here is to go with a version of the Life-Force religion, which has received a lot of popularity in SW and TESB. You mention Carl Sagan, but here you actually gain by not going through all the pains of a Genesis. "The Universe has always been here", you might say, "and we are prisoners in its Cycles." (Forgive me if anyone recognizes the term from "The Mote in God's Eye".) Your whole idea behind the universe here will be the concept or the circle, or Cycle. Here you could introduce, an old favorite of cults, reincarnation. (This goes as well with the Force as does a grape Nehi with a good pizza). Be sure not to confuse this with ressurection, especially in the Christ sense. To your High Priests you may each give a copy of your Holy Book, "Godel, Escher, Bach", and then introduce recursion to them. This will only prove to them that "Everything is (what everything is (what everything is))". I really sort of favor this one myself. Then you could get into the rape-and pillage-and suicide-and-murder Charles Manson - Jim Jones religions. These are so terribly easy to create, I won't go into them here. Just be sure to have plenty of drugs on hand. Brainwashing and torture work well here too. This should get you started. All I have to say about this now, is that is Christianity's right I wouldn't bother getting into this as it would probably cause a lot of anguish in the the long run for you and your followers. But mostly you. Hoo-haa, Karim ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 1981 0954-PST Sender: WMARTIN at OFFICE-3 Subject: Nomenclature From: WMartin at Office-3 (Will Martin) Should Jim Jones' followers be called "People's Templars"? Shades of the crusades! Will ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 1981 1026-PST From: Tom Wadlow Subject: Re: Flaming about G. Harry Stine 1) Having read the articles in question (in Destinies, Analog etc.) I don't recall anything about Stine's proposed critical action time system being grossly inconsistent with special relativity. As I recall, he did mention some vague thing about FTL on the last few pages of a *fiction* book called Star Driver and published under the pseudonym of Lee Correy. In any event, believing in FTL is, though somewhat unscientific, probably fairly common, even among those of us on the ARPANet. It does not, in it self, rate a ``loonie'' label. 2) Stine's ``surge'' system, while inconsistent with modern physics, is fairly consistent with modern engineering, and perhaps bears some investigation. (The bumblebees can still fly, no matter *what* the mathematics say.) I personally see some fairly large, but perhaps not irreconcilable, flaws in it, but the manpower needed to investigate is not large, so it is probably worth the trouble. 3) Space industrialization, like the industrialization of North America, will probably not take place until the trails have been broken and the shipping lines established. This has not yet happened, but the Shuttle should help a great deal. The potential for the next 25 years is fairly large. Historically, people have tended to overestimate what they can do in a short period, and underestimate what they can do in a long period. 4) Putting solar cells on your roof is a noble goal, but the prime uses of electric power are not domestic but industrial. Somebody has to make the solar cells and the toasters and washing machines that they run, and that takes lots of electricity. 15% may be the efficiency of solar cells *today* but it was much less 5 years ago, and may be much more in another 5 years. If a concerted research effort was established to make efficient solar conversion systems for space, I suspect that we would have such systems in a fairly short time. But saying that it won't get done 'cause we can't do it *right now* is like quitting the patent office 'cause there's nothing interesting left to be invented. -- Tom Wadlow ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 25-MAR "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #77 *** EOOH *** Date: 25 MAR 1981 0606-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #77 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Wednesday, 25 Mar 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 77 Today's Topics: SF Books - God Emperor of Dune, SF Radio - HGttG and Star Wars FTP Material - Omni Articles, Spoiler - Star Wars Radio ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ZEMON@MIT-AI 03/24/81 07:53:40 Just got a copy (yes, in \hardback/) of Frank Herbert's GOD EMPEROR OF DUNE. As you might guess, there is now a fourth book in the Dune series . . . . It lists for $12.95, but if you a clever about it you can probably get a copy for less than $10.00 (by shopping around) -- I did. In my opinion the book is worth it (unlike THE JESUS INCIDENT, which I made the mistake of getting in hardback, too.) pico-reveiw : Real Good So Far (at least up to page 130. I'll finish it tonight . . . .) -Landon- ------------------------------ Date: 24 Mar 1981 1034-PST (Tuesday) From: Dal at UCLA-SECURITY (Doug Landauer) Subject: HGttG and Star Wars in LA... (try again) KUSC ( 91.5 FM ) broadcasts Star Wars Sunday nights at six pm, repeating them on Thursday afternoons at four or four-thirty or so. KCRW in Santa Monica ( 89.9 FM; a formerly-low-power community-college-operated station ) also broadcasts it, at 3:30 PM on Wednesdays, immediately following HGttG which starts at 3:00. For more program information about KCRW ( quite an interesting station, without the incredible volume of politically-oriented stuff that KPFK ( 90.7 ) spews ), call (213)450-5183, and ask them to send you a ( free ) program guide. About six other stations audible from Hollywood are broadcasting Star Wars ( there was an article in the Times about it ), but I have no list of them. - doug - ------------------------------ Date: 24 March 1981 1816-EST From: Hank Walker at CMU-10A Subject: solar sats The max theoretical efficiency of silicon solar cells in sunlight is 26%. You have to get tricky if you want to get higher efficiency. Like multiple compounds to absorb different parts of the spectrum, or a medium that can shift other frequencies to those that silicon can use. It'll probably weigh even more. ------------------------------ JPM@MIT-AI 03/24/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last message in this digest. It refers to the Star Wars radio series. People who are not familiar with the series may not wish to read any further. ------------------------------ JMTURN@MIT-AI 03/24/81 02:18:46 Shade and Sweet water to you, Something for those of you who have been listening to SW on NPR (and this really deserves a spoiler!): Scene: The Tatoine (sorry for the spelling) 4, in a restricted zone to pick up the Death Star tapes. An Imperial cruiser is closing in. Captain Antilles: Princess, we must hurry, the cruiser is closing! Princess Leia: Just a minute, I'm getting the settings on the recorder right. Imperial ST: This is the Destroyer Fubar, you are in a restricted zone. Please prepare for boarding. CA: We are a diplomatic flight. You have no right to detain us. (aside) Hurry! PL: Now then, they're transmitting at 9600, with no parity, and XMIT require (changes settings). There, that should do it. Rebel: Starting transmission. PL: Hang on, I'm getting parity errors on about half the letters. Rebel: What is the parity set to? PL: It's disabled. Rebel: No! It has to be odd. IST: Boarding in two minutes. PL: There, try again. (Buzzing is heard) PL: No good, the line isn't good enough for 9600. Move to 1200. CA: We don't have time! PL: This is of vital importance to the rebel forces. Make time. CA: This is a non-military ship. Go away. PL: Still garbled. What program are you using? Rebel: FTP, of course. PL: FTP?!! I'm using TELNET. Can't you use TELNET too? Rebel: Which version? All I have is 3.2. PL: Damn, all I have is 2.0... In space, no one can hear you dump... James Turner ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 26-MAR "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #78 *** EOOH *** Date: 26 MAR 1981 0433-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #78 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Thursday, 26 Mar 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 78 Today's Topics: SF Books - Book Notes & Synthesis & Shorter vs Longer, SF Topics - Mythical Research, Spoiler - Star Wars ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 25 Mar 1981 0236-PST From: Jim McGrath Subject: Book Notes From this month's issue of LOCUS magazine: SHATTERDAY, by Harlan Ellison, was sold to Berkley (to be published as a paperback) for $30,000. The Hardcover edition sold out.... THE ESSENTIAL ELLISON will also be published by Berkley. AN ISLAND CALLED MOREAU, by Brian Aldiss, sold out its 6,000 copy American edition within a month.... KING DAVID'S SPACESHIP by Jerry Pournelle, has sold 7,500 copies in hardcover so far. Paperback rights to THE MANY COLORED LAND, by Julian May, went to Fawcett/Popular Library for in excess of $30,000. Gale Research is publishing two major SF reference books this spring, SCIENCE FICTION BOOK REVIEW INDEX, 1974-1979, edited by H. W. Hall, available in April, and a 2 volume TWENTIETH CENTURY AMERICAN SCIENCE FICTION AUTHORS, edited by David Cowart and Thomas Wymer, out in May or June. Membership in the Science Fiction Book Club has been reported in excess of 150,000. Jim ------------------------------ DGSHAP@MIT-AI 03/25/81 15:16:22 Re: synthesists Not only do chemistry-computer science "synthesists" exist (I was one for a while, working on a project to design synthesis for organic compounds by machine) but I bet you that if you combined the names for ANY two fields, somewhere there is a living, breathing practitioner of both those arts. Say, Equestrian-politics? Quantum ballistics? Paleolithic ontology? Jurassic polyphony? Abnormal psycho-acoustics? Linguistic hydro-dynamics? Topological Horticulture? (did Rene Thom do this?) It's a bizarre idea at first, but not so bizarre once you start thinking about it. Stanislaw Lem took up this idea in one of his fairly recent books (which one?). He had a character predict important developments in the future by randomly combining such names and imagining the creations of the corresponding disciplines. Maybe Lem was meta-describing his process of writing science fiction? It was great fun. Dan ------------------------------ Date: 25 Mar 1981 2146-PST From: Stuart McLure Cracraft Subject: Shorter stories vs. longer stories Another example that comes to mind is Flowers for Algernon which was both a novella (ette?) and a book-length work. Since I haven't read the shorter version, I can't comment about which was better. ------------------------------ Date: 25 March 1981 1641-cst From: Bill Vaughan Subject: Shorter stories, better stories A little while ago someone remarked that the shorter stories are often the better ones. Though this isn't invariable, it's true most of the time; and the case I'd like to mention is Niven's "The Magic Goes Away." This was published about three years ago as a short novel, padded with lots of illos, and with an assertion on the cover about "never before published" (or some garbage to that effect). But in fact, it had been published before - in an obscure pulpish mag whose name escapes me, though it may have been called "Odyssey" (I can look it up; I have a copy somewhere). The prior publication was a lot shorter - I guess novella size - and a hell of a lot better. There really wasn't much more than a novella's worth of story in it in the first place, and the longer version was palpably padded. Real good padding - Niven doesn't screw around - but padding none the less. The shorter version would have made a much better culmination to the "Warlock" cycle than the longer one - but I guess it's destined for obscurity. It would be interesting to find out the story behind the rewrite someday ... Anyway, I brought this up because it's so seldom that you actually get to see the same story in two versions of different lengths. Clarke's "Against the Fall of Night" and "The City and the Stars" come close, but there was a lot of story development between the two versions in that case -- not so in this. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Mar 1981 1204-PST From: Craig W. Reynolds from III via Rand Subject: mythical research Does anyone know who (if anyone) actually claimed that bees (or was it bumblebees, houseflies?) cannot fly, based on some aerodynamical reasoning? This always sounded like an "old wife's tale" (old scientist's tale?) to me. Usually research involves experiment, all of my experiments seem to indicate that these critters do fly, or at least they fall very slowly. How about the old chestnut that the average human only uses 10% of their brain? The MIT paper "thursday" once published a great comeback to that one, "The rest is taken up by the operating system". - Craig ------------------------------ JPM@MIT-AI 03/26/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last message in this digest. It refers to the Star Wars radio series. People who are not familiar with the series may not wish to read any further. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Mar 1981 1005-PST From: Richard Pattis Subject: R2D2: a question I seem to remember that in previous SF-LOVERS discussions there was speculation that R2D2 was some special 'droid -- with lots of built in, non standard goodies. But on the Star Wars radio show, it appeared that R2D2 was picked by Princess Leia only because he happened to be in the right place at the right time. Is this just another side-effect of the force? Rich ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 27-MAR "JPM at MIT-ML" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #79 *** EOOH *** Date: 27 MAR 1981 0528-EST From: JPM at MIT-ML Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #79 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Friday, 27 Mar 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 79 Today's Topics: SF Books - Favorite uncommon SF poll, SF Movies - Gumby and Dr. T, SF Topics - Mythical Research ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 26 Mar 1981 1943-PST From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE Subject: deadline for favorite uncommon sf poll ...is April 3, so get your entries in soon! A brief reminder of the rules: any written work that you think is sf or fantasy, like, and think is rare or uncommon, is eligible. You can submit as many as you like. A brief description and any information on availability would be appreciated. There will be a second phase of the poll which will ask for people's ratings of the obscurity and (if they've read it) quality of the books. So far, incidentally, there have been no duplicate entries. good reading, --cat ------------------------------ Date: 22 Mar 1981 1411-PST (Sunday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: Gumby and Dr. T The ever-popular NUART and FOX-VENICE theaters here in L.A. have some programs scheduled of possible interest to local SF-LOVERS types. At the NUART, on April 2, is the GUMBY FILM FESTIVAL! Yes, a complete GUMBY episode sequence, a classic "Davy and Goliath", some clay art films, and the animation classic GUMBASIA will be screened. Also, GUMBY creator Art Cloakey will appear in person, as will Gumby himself (Pokey is not expected, however.) For all you clay-heads out there, this sounds like a must-see. ---- At the FOX-VENICE, on May 6, the superb 5000 FINGERS OF DR. T will screen, along with the classic 7 FACES OF DR. LAO. (Hmmm. 5000 Fingers. 7 Faces. Talk about strange scheduling...) In fact, the FOX-VENICE has an SF/Fantasy film festival in progress for the entire period from April 6 to May 8. ---- If you haven't seen it (or even if you have), I STRONGLY recommend seeing the 5000 FINGERS OF DR. T. --Lauren-- ------- ------------------------------ Date: 26 Mar 1981 0720-PST From: Mike Peeler Subject: Rumblings about bumblebees I remember thinking G. Harry Stine's "surge" business was a lot of malarkey, but I don't remember the article well enough to give a decent criticism. Perhaps someone else can fill us in. The math does not say that bumblebees cannot fly. Around the turn of the century some engineer thought he had shown that the physics of the day could not explain the fact that bumblebees fly. All he really showed was that the mechanism of the flight of bumblebees was not known, at least not by him. Still, it was just the sort of thing that a lot of people could jump on and say, "See! That science jazz isn't worth beans!" Such pointed examples of the mistakes scientists can make do not prove that any old crackpot theory is just as good as the current favorite among ivory-tower elitists. A good theory shows overwhelming agreement with the facts and motivates compelling arguments in its favor. Perhaps Stine's surge theory fits this description, but surely not by virtue of Stine's presentation. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Mar 1981 at 1137-PST From: obrien at RAND-UNIX Subject: Flying bees I unfortunately cannot provide a reference to the aerodynamic analysis of bumblebees, but I do remember reading a discussion of this study somewhere. The only thing that sticks in my mind is that they analysis was indeed made of a bumblebee's wing: as a static structure. Not exactly one of your more relevant assumptions. I have seen very, very few gliding bumblebees. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Mar 1981 10:33 PST From: Karlton at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: mythical research The finding was actually that if a bumblebee had fixed wings it could not fly. The fact that its wings move makes it aerodynamically different. The finding could well be correct. Have you ever seen a fixed wing bumblebee flying? PK ------------------------------ Date: 26 March 1981 19:59-EST From: Dale R. Worley Subject: Bumblebees not flying The crux of the problem about bumblebees depends on the fluid dynamics of flight, i.e., how wings generate lift. To generate lift, a wing has to have a vortex around it. (That is, if you subtract the 'expected' wind velocity from the velocity field of the air, the remainder looks like a vortex around the wing.) If you have a fixed wing like an airplane, all you need to start up the vortex is to shove the wing forward through the air, the viscosity of the air causes the vortex to start up by itself. If you consider a living flying thing that flaps its wings, the same analysis works, except that the vortex breaks down at the extreme top of the wing flap. Thus, the vortex has to be re-established during each downstroke. For most birds and insects this is no problem. However, extremely small insects do not have a long enough downstroke to establish the necessary vortex. This is the dilemma. The resolution is that these insects do not establish the vortex by using the viscosity of the air. When they bring their wings up, they make them touch together. Then they pull them apart and down, but they pull the front edges of the wings apart before the back. This causes air to flow from the front over the touching top surfaces of the wings. When the wings are fully separated, this flow rapidly develops into the needed vortex. This form of flight is also used by some birds (e.g. pigeons) when they need extra lift, since it gives more lift during the first part of the downstroke than normally. This is why pigeons often make a slapping noise when they take off, it is their wings hitting together at the top of the stroke. There was an article on this in Scientific American several years ago. Moral: Don't claim that an observation "contradicts (present) physical law" unless you have a complete and exact understanding of what is happening in the process under discussion. Otherwise, it is probably just that Mother Nature is cleverer than you are. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Mar 1981 (Thursday) 2202-EDT From: SHRAGE at WHARTON-10 ( Jeffrey Shrager) Subject: Nothing is faster than the speed of light... To prove this to yourself, try opening the refrigerator door before the light comes on. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 28-MAR "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #80 *** EOOH *** Date: 28 MAR 1981 0457-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #80 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Saturday, 28 Mar 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 80 Today's Topics: SF Books - Dying Inside & Fuzzys, SF Topics - Mythical Research & Religion, FTP Material - Omni Articles, Spoiler - Star Wars ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 Mar 81 16:11:36-PDT From: mclure@Sri-Unix Subject: Silverberg oldies-but-goodies? Silverberg's Dying Inside is very entertaining. For those of you interested in telepathy stories, it's a must. Also, it is the exact opposite of what Disch's recent quote mentions as the 'classic' SF novel. Since I have read very little Silverberg other than a few short stories, I'd be interested to hear which of his SF novels come up to the level of this novel, since people have been telling me he is extremely variable. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 1981 15:24 PST From: Kolling at PARC-MAXC Subject: fuzzies Maybe everybody knows about these books but me, but in case not: run, do not walk to your local bookstore and get a copy of "Little Fuzzy" and "Fuzzy Sapiens" (also available in one book as "The Fuzzy Papers") by H. Beam Piper. Entertaining, literate, and a delight for animal freaks. Original pointer from hjjh at utexas. Karen ------------------------------ Date: 26 Mar 1981 10:55 PST From: Chapman.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #78 Subject: mythical research In-reply-to: Craig W. Reynolds from III via Rand 's message of 25 MAR 1981 1204-PST I do believe that there really was such a calculation made (that bumble bees can't fly). The results were invalidated when it was realized that one of the basic assumptions used in the calculations was not true. They forgot that a bumble bee's wings move! Cheryl ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 1981 (Friday) 2121-EDT From: SHRAGE at WHARTON-10 ( Jeffrey Shrager) Subject: The A's and Bee's of evolution ... This discussion of the bee flight problem has reminded me, simultaneously, of an argument against purest evolutionary theory and a question about the flight of a 747. First, the latter... If you've ever actually flow on a large jet you will notice that they fly nose-up... or, at least, wing-tip up. That is, the front of the wing is much higher than the rear. The feeling I got looking at this is that, in addition to air-foil action, they were using the forward motion in a much simpler manner to apply an upward normal force to the wing bottom. Is this the case? The evolutionary problem is much more subtle (and totally unrelated -- perhaps the moderator should split this message). If evolution is to be taken at its strict word, how do birds (bees, if you like) ever develope the capability of flight? That is, I cannot imagine the birds jumping off cliffs until the right random DNA mutation takes place which permits it to fly properly. In a more general form; It seems that there are aspects of organism that cannot develope in small steps since their full form is required in order to effect the desired result at all. How are such phenomenon explained? One more totally semi-related topic: Does anyone recall the rather recent invention of the stall-less paper airplane? Do you have the plans? Can I Xerox (oops, sorry, "photocopy") them? I would think it somewhat tough to netmail such info. Did anything ever come of that design? -- 73s Jeff ------------------------------ Date: 28 March 1981 00:09-EST From: Dale R. Worley Subject: Rudof's comments on hormones and emotions Although it is a minor part of Rudof's essay on founding religions for fun and prophet, I must take violent exception to his comment that "emotions are mostly caused by hormones". Hormones actually do little to cause one's emotions, since emotions are generated by neural circuits in the thalmus of your brain. In fact, the influence is mostly the other way, with one's emotional state affecting one's hormones, which in turn affect the body. This idea that hormones cause emotions probably sprung from early research into sex hormones. While it is clear that major changes (e.g. removal) in the level of circulating sex hormones can alter sex emotions, a 'normal' level of sex hormones is neither necessary or sufficient for 'normal' sexual behavior. See Ellis and Kinsey for further details. My guess would be that the emphasis on a non-psychological cause of emotions, particularly sex emotions, arose from the Victorian belief that emotions were not 'rational' and therefore must be ascribed to the 'body' rather than to the 'soul'. I have overemphasized my approach here; emotions are really a very complex interaction of hormones, thalmic structures, and other parts of the brain. But, having seen the assertion that emotions are primarily caused by hormones in a number of places in SF land, I wish to put it to rest here. Dale ------------------------------ Date: 27 March 1981 15:00 cst From: VaughanW at HI-Multics (Bill Vaughan) Subject: nothing is faster than the speed of light Sender: VaughanW.REFLECS at HI-Multics I did it! I did it! I opened the refrigerator door before the light came on!! (Of course, the peanut butter in the light switch probably helped)... ------------------------------ Date: 27 March 1981 19:48 cst From: VaughanW at HI-Multics (Bill Vaughan) Subject: solar sats Sender: VaughanW.REFLECS at HI-Multics Though solar cells have limited efficiency (theoretically 26%, but practically 10-15%), you can get more watts per acre than by just sticking them out in the sun. To do this you must irradiate the cells with a greater luminous flux than sunlight. A laser would work just fine. Recently reported was a gas laser pumped directly by sunlight. Put one in orbit. It will collect sunlight, convert it into laser energy, and send it down to Earth to be converted into electricity via solar panels. This is just another kind of solar power satellite, to be sure - but without microwaves. The laser "transmitter" would be cheaper than a microwave transmitter, and (having fewer active components) far more reliable. Microwaves cause RFI. Not lasers. Microwaves are hazardous. Maybe the laser would be too - but no more so, and the beam's a lot tighter. Microwave SPS's are just plain heavy. Laser SPS's needn't be (the collector can be a Mylar mirror) - so you don't need a fleet of heavy launch vehicles. I guess the ground station is cheaper for microwaves, but nobody's perfect. [ Another mailing list on the NET, ENERGY, has been discussing this topic for the last several months. Anyone interested in operational characteristics of Solar Power Satellites are advised to look in the ENERGY archives, which are stored on line in two sets of files on MIT-MC - MC:OAF;ENERGY ARC<001,002,003> contains the old material from the list, while newer material goes into the file MC:OAF;ENERGY RECENT. Thanks to Oded Anoaf Feingold , the ENERGY archivist, for making these files available. - Jim ] ------------------------------ JPM@MIT-AI 03/28/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last message in this digest. It refers to the Star Wars series, containing information about the other hope. People who are not familiar with this series of stories may not wish to read any further. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 1981 2135-PST From: Judy Anderson Subject: ABSOLUTE STAR WARS SPOILER!!! DO NOT READ THIS IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO KNOW! From a reliable source who has this info from an ``unimpeachable'' source, we have the following news about Revenge of the Jedi or whatever it is going to be called: They resolved the contract difficulties with Harrison Ford so Han gets unfroze (this is not the spoiler but it may be news). Darth IS Luke's father. Leia is the other hope. Luke and Leia are RELATIVES in the following bizarre manner: Luke is the son of Darth and . Leia is the daughter of the King (or whatever) of Alderaan and . Darth did not have her permission when Luke was conceived. So Luke and Leia are half-brother and -sister, which means that Han gets Leia. (Can't expose the kiddies to incest, now, can we?) I might be wrong, but I think I am right in these spoilers. Hope those of you who don't heed spoiler warnings are not upset... MtFBWY, Judy. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 29-MAR "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #81 *** EOOH *** Date: 29 MAR 1981 0902-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #81 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Sunday, 29 Mar 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 81 Today's Topics: SF Books - 1980 LOCUS Recommended Reading List: Part I & Dying Inside & Book of Skulls, SF Magazines - The Twilight Zone Magazine, SF Movies - Outland & Excaliber, SF Radio - The Great Turkey Debate, SF Topics - Mythical Research ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 28 Mar 1981 2336-PST From: Jim McGrath Subject: 1980 LOCUS Recommended Reading List: Part I From this month's issue of LOCUS magazine comes the LOCUS recommended reading list, compiled by Charles Brown and many others (including Jeff Frane, Terry Carr, Gardner Dozois, and Mark R. Kelly) from their own private readings, various review columns, best seller lists, the Nebula awards ballots, and works generally considered popular in the market place. This list is intended to cover works appearing in the year 1980. Since the list is too long for a single message, but not long enough to justify FTPing, it is being sent in three parts. The first part, this message, contains the works in the NOVEL categories - SCIENCE FICTION, FANTASY, and BEST FIRST novels. The second part contains recommended SHORT STORY collections and ANTHOLOGIES, as well as NON-FICTION and ART books. The third part contains individual stories in the NOVELLA, NOVELLETTE, and SHORT STORY categories. NOVELS - SCIENCE FICTION TIMESCAPE, Gregory Benford (Simon & Schuster) GOLEM 100, Alfred Bester (Simon & Schuster) EYES OF FIRE, Michael Bishop (Pocket) TWO TO CONQUER, Marion Zimmer Bradley (DAW) WILD SEED, Octavia Butler (Doubleday) SERPENT'S REACH, C. J. Cherryh (SF Book Club/DAW) ASCENDANCIES, D. G. Compton (Gollancz) THE MAGIC LABYRINTH, Philip Jose Farmer (Berkley/Putnam) WAVES, M. A. Foster (DAW) THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST, Robert A Heinlein (Fawcett) FIRESTARTER, Stephen King (Phantasia/Viking) THE RINGWORLD ENGINEERS, Larry Niven (Phantasia/Holt, Rinehart & Winston) BEYOND THE BLUE EVENT HORIZON, Frederik Pohl (Del Rey) DANGEROUS GAMES, marta Randall (Pocket) MOLLY ZERO, Keith Roberts (Gollancz) SONGS FROM TE STARS, Norman Spinrad (Simon & Schuster) MOCKINGBIRD, Walter Tevis (Doubleday) WIZARD, John Varley (Berkley/Putnam) THE SNOW QUEEN, Joan D. Vinge (Dial) THE GARDENS OF DELIGHT, Ian Watson (Gollancz) NOVELS - FANTASY SPLIT INFINITY, Piers Anthony (Del Rey) THE VAMPIRE TAPESTRY, Suzy McKee Charnas (Simon & Schuster) ALL DARKNESS MET, Glen Cook (Berkley) NECROPOLIS, Basil Copper (Arkham House) THE RAINBOW ANNALS, Grania Davis (Avon) THE WOUNDED LAND, Stephen R. Donaldson (Del Rey) FIRELORD, Parke Godwin (Doubleday) A STORM OF WINGS, M John Harrison (Doubleday) DUCTON WOODS, William Horwood (McGraw-Hill) "The Mist", Stephen King (DARK FORCES) KILL THE DEAD, Tanith Lee (DAW) SABELLA, Tanith Lee (DAW) THE BEGINNING PLACE, Ursula K. LeGuin (Harper & Row) THE NORTHERN GIRL, Elizabeth A Lynn (Berkley/Putnam) THE CASTLE OF HAPE, Shirley Rousseau Murphy (Atheneum) THORN, Fred Saberhagen (Ace) LORD VALENTINE'S CASTLE, Robert Silverberg (Harper & Row) SHADOW LAND, Peter Straub (Coward, McCann & Geoghegan) AFTER DARK, Manly Wade Wellman (Doubleday) THE SHADOW OF THE TORTURER, Gene Wolfe (Simon & Schuster) ARIOSTO, Chelsea Quinn Yarbro (Simon & Schuster) CHANGELING, Roger Zelazny (Ace) FIRST NOVELS HAWK OF MAY, Gillian Bradshaw (Simon & Schuster) SUNDIVER, David Brin (Bantam) THE MAN IN THE DARKSUIT, Dennis R. Caro (Pocket) A LOST TALE, Dale Estey (St. Martins) WEB OF ANGELS, Jon M. Ford (Pocket) DRAGON'S EGG, Robert L. Forward (Del Rey) MASTER OF THE FIVE MAGICS, Lyndon Hardy (Del Rey) YEARWOOD, Paul Hazel (Atlantic/Little, Brown) ONE ON ME, Tim Huntley (DAW) BEYOND REJECTION, Justin Leiber (Del Rey) LIFEKEEPER, Mike McQuay (Avon) THE GATES OF HEAVEN, Paul Preuss (Bantam) WHITE LIGHT, Rudy Rucker (Virgin) SCAVENGERS, David Skal (Pocket) STILL FORMS ON FOXFIELD, Joan Slonczewski (Del Rey) THE ORPHAN, robert Stallman (Pocket) ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 1981 (Saturday) 2328-EDT From: PLATTS at WHARTON-10 ( Steve Platt) Subject: Silverberg books: "Dying Inside" and "Book of Skulls" ...I read "Dying Inside" around 2 weeks ago (synchronicity?). I thought it peaked around 2/3 the way through (when Selig went simultaneously mentally and physically impotent), but it concluded reasonably. Silverberg does have his good & bad moments, but then again, who doesn't? He seems to be best when dealing with people, not technology. For an example see "Book of Skulls". (from the same era, the early 70's...) These books both have many traits typically Silverberg: empty sex and a story that describes more of a passage than an event. Happy reading... -Steve ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 1981 1138-PST From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE Subject: new zine Saw a copy of a new magazine: "The Twilight Zone, all-new tales of suspense, horror, and the supernatural in the tradition of the classic television series". I didn't recognize any of the names on the masthead. It has some name writers in this issue: Zelazny, Haldeman, Robinson, Silverberg, and Tanith Lee, though their stories are all pretty minor. It also has part of an episode guide to the show and the teleplay to "The Monsters Are Due on Maple Street". Anybody know if this (May 1981) is the first issue? [ It should be the first issue (it might be the second - look and see if it is marked "Premier Issue" on the cover). This magazine was refered to quite briefly in digest issues 49 and 50 of the current volume, but there were no extensive comments on the quality of the magazine. - Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 27 MAR 1981 2248-PST From: RODOF at USC-ECL Subject: Trailers of upcoming movies... While seeing Altered States (at last) in Westwood (A good loud movie by the way, although it is my personal opinion that the script confuses `Shrooms with peyote cactus, since the Indians are shown picking it from barren rock) I was able to see the trailers for both "Outland" and "Excaliber". Outland certainly looks expensively and professionally made, and the trailer, at least, was exciting; but you can never tell with trailers. It is my personal opinion that most trailers are short bits of the best parts stuck together, so that a good trailer may be misleading, but a bad trailer is a definite warning sign. And speaking of bad trailers, Excaliber, for which I had high hopes, looks like it will probably bite tuna. Even what little acting was shown in the trailer was noticeably poor, and the FX were definitely not up to the state of the art. A plus point, however -- the costumes (armor, swords, dress of the ladies) look real as dammit, (unlike in Camelot, for instance) and probably are, which may not be a good thing, as the actors in the armor in several quick fight montages seem barely able to stand up under what may well be }100 kilos of armor plus a 15 kilo sword. Sparks fly and dents form, but it may turn out that they should have gotten stronger actors or stuck with fiberglass and dubbed sound. Another plus was the cinematography, which was beautiful, and the sound, which was also good. At any rate, I still intend to go see it, (Along with Clash of the Titans, any reports on THAT one, anyone?) but with nowhere near the expectations I had before. Rodof ------------------------------ Date: 28 March 1981 03:00 est From: Schauble.Multics at MIT-Multics Subject: Worst SF radio show of all time. Prompted by the discussion on worst SF films. I nominate a Sears Radio Theater episode that has a ship making a forced landing on a planet. The captain comments that they are fortunate to land where they did in that there is an atmosphere ON THIS SIDE. ------------------------------ Date: 28 March 1981 1656-EST (Saturday) From: The Twilight Zone Subject: Reptiles Flopping over clifs till they get wings. It seems to me that you could develop wings "incrementally" as follows: Assume that when a creature is fleeing in fear that it tends to move, flap, wiggle, etc. anything that will move, flap, wiggle, etc. Now assume that some land creature, say with two legs, starts growing wing stubs (what would you call them?). Now, when this dude starts running from some enemy, in its panic it "flaps" its wing-stubs, and someday (quite by accident I'm sure) some stupid pre-bird manages to flap in sync with it's running and gets a boost. Low and behold, this dude, being able to run a little faster, will tend to survive a little better, and Mother Nature takes her course. Consider the Ostrich, a bird that can't fly (though I don't know if it really uses it's wings when running, it's been a long time since I've seen Mutual of Omaha rerun). Yours in Flaming, doug ------------------------------ Date: 28 March 1981 0952-EST (Saturday) From: Hank.Walker at CMU-10A (C410DW60) Subject: how planes fly Yes indeed, planes get some of their lift by flying with the nose up slightly. On commercial jets, the airfoil shape is the traditional one you learn about in science class. But on high performance fighter planes, the wing is nearly symmetrical, and gets most of its lift by flying at an angle and using brute force. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to fly upside down. ------------------------------ Date: 28 MAR 1981 2147-EST From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: several points (answered after being away for a week) We already \have/ an equestrian politician: Prince Charles of Britain is a competition-class horseman (to add to his other feats. . . .) "On location" when applied to shooting movies tends to mean anywhere outside the confines of a sound stage---the point being that working outside a controlled environment is hell on equipment, people, costs, and schedules. How a plane flies happens to be something I have a certain amount of experience with. (It is also a subject on which you will get some fascinating ignorant arguments: do you sink more on a downwind turn than on an upwind turn?) Lift can be generated either by the traditional low-pressure-on-top method or by raising the leading edge of the wing (thereby producing lift via Newton's third law). As far as I've noticed, no airplane is pointed significantly above its line of flight when in cruise configuration; however, at takeoff speeds even the substantial modifications in wing geometry now used on commercial jets are insufficient to produce the needed lift, requiring that the nose be lifted significantly above the climb path of the airplane. This leads to some interesting notions: * One useful model for predicting climb performance determines how much less power is needed to keep the aircraft moving at a lower speed (to stay up at this speed requires pitching up to add reactive lift to aerodynamic lift); the excess will produce a climb that can be calculated by simple work/mass arithmetic. * The FAA and the military have for a long time taught that you control airspeed with the elevator and attitude with the throttle, a non-intuitive procedure which has the small use of persuading technically-oriented people to realize the interdependency of these two controls and the large use of preventing neos from simply pulling on the stick to climb (thereby stalling) or pushing to go down (thereby tearing the wings off). In actual fact, it is necessary to make \small/ alterations in trim (axis-to- flight-path angle) depending on cruising speed; an alteration in power setting will cause the nose to rise or fall appropriately. The one time this is of significant use is when making the precise shallow final descent to the runway; especially when you are trying to stay on an ILS (radio glide path) it's much easier to control rate of descent with the throttle, thus minimizing the force you have to exert on the aerodynamic controls (short-term adjustments of the elevator trim tab tend to lose). ------------------------------ Date: 27 MAR 1981 1640-EST From: GFH at CCA (Gail Hormats) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #79 RE: BEING FASTER THAN THE SPEED OF LIGHT....THE LIGHT IN MY ICEBOX NEVER COMES ON, AT LEAST NOT WHEN I AM USING IT, DOES THIS MAKE ME FASTER THEN LIGHT (OR AT LEAST FASTER THEN GE ? SYLVANIA? WESTINGHOUSE?) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 31-MAR "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #82 *** EOOH *** Date: 31 MAR 1981 0555-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #82 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Tuesday, 31 Mar 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 82 Today's Topics: Administrativia - Missing Digest, SF Events - SFL Tshirts, SF Books - 1980 LOCUS Recommended Reading List: Part II & Wizard & Fuzzys, SF Magazines - The Twilight Zone Magazine, SF Radio - The Great Turkey Debate, SF Topics - The Evolution of Flight & Physics Imaginary (Surge Forces) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 30 Mar 1980 22:32 PST From: The Moderator Subject: Administrivia - Missing Digest Due to a lack of material, a Monday digest was not sent out. Thus this is the first digest since the Sunday, March 29 issue. The quantity of submissions to SF-LOVERS has been low for the past few weeks. This is probably due to spring vacations and semester breaks and vacations. I feel certain that this low message rate is ending. However, do not be greatly surprised if a weekend digest is occasionally skipped due to insufficient material. Since all digests are consecutively numbered (this is issue 82 of volume 3), it is always possible to determine if you missed an issue. If so, then a message to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST will result in the missing issue being resent to you within a couple of days. Jim ------------------------------ Date: 30 Mar 1981 10:22 PST From: Brodie at PARC-MAXC Subject: SF-lovers T-Shirt update Anyone who wants an SF-Lovers T-shirt, but has not yet ordered one, should send a message now to SFL-TshirtS@MIT-AI for more information, since orders will soon be closed. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Mar 1981 2314-PST From: Jim McGrath Subject: 1980 LOCUS Recommended Reading List: Part II From this month's issue of LOCUS magazine comes the LOCUS recommended reading list, compiled by Charles Brown and many others (including Jeff Frane, Terry Carr, Gardner Dozois, and Mark R. Kelly) from their own private readings, various review columns, best seller lists, the Nebula awards ballots, and works generally considered popular in the market place. This list is intended to cover works appearing in the year 1980. Since the list is too long for a single message, but not long enough to justify FTPing, it is being sent in three parts. The first part contains the works in the NOVEL categories - SCIENCE FICTION, FANTASY, and BEST FIRST novels. The second part, this message, contains recommended SHORT STORY collections and ANTHOLOGIES, as well as NON-FICTION and ART books. The third part contains individual stories in the NOVELLA, NOVELLETTE, and SHORT STORY categories. SHORT STORY COLLECTIONS THE STORIES OF RAY BRADBURY, Ray Bradbury (Knopf) THE SCIENCE FICTION OF MARK CLIFTON, Barry N. Malzbery and Martin H. Greenberd, eds (Southern Illinois University Press) OUT THERE WHERE THE BIG SHIPS GO, Richard Cowper (Pocket) THE GOLDEN MAN, Philip K. Dick, ed by Mark Hurst (Berkley) LOST DORSAI, Gordon R. Dickson (Ace) FUNDAMENTAL DISCH, Thomas Disch (Bantam) THE SPECIALTY OF THE HOUSE, Stanley Ellin (Mysterious Press) SHATTERDAY, Harlan Ellion (Houghton-Mifflin) EXPANDED UNIVERSE, Robert Heinlein (Grosset and Dunlap) THE MAN WHO LOVED THE MIDNIGHT LADY, Barry N. Malzberg (Doubleday) THE BEST OF WALTER M. MILLER, Walter M. Miller, Jr. (Pocket) LORE OF THE WITCH WORLD, Andre Norton (DAW) SAN DIEGO LIGHTFOOT SUE, Tom Reamy (Earthlight) ANTINOMY, Spider Robinson (Dell) WAVE RIDER, Hilbert Schenck (Pocket) IF ALL ELSE FAILS..., Craig Strete (Doubleday) UNFINISHED TALES, J. R. R. Tolkien, ed by Christopher Tolkien (Houghton-Mifflin) THE BARBIE MURDERS, John Varley (Berkley) THE ISLAND OF DOCTOR DEATH AND OTHER STORIES AND OTHER STORIES, Gene Wolfe (Pocket) THE LAST DEFENDER OF CAMELOT, Roger Zelazny (Pocket) ANTHOLOGIES TALES FROM THE VULGAR UNICORN, Robert Lynn Asprin, ed. (Ace) THE BEST SCIENCE FICTION OF THE YEAR #9, Terry Carr, ed. (Del Rey) UNIVERSE 10, Terry Carr, ed. (Doubleday) THE BEST SCIENCE FICTION NOVELLAS OF THE YEAR #2, Terry Carr, ed. (Del Rey) NEBULA AWARDS THIRTEEN, Samuel R. Delany, ed. (Harper & Row) THE BEST SCIENCE FICTION STORIES OF THE YEAR #9, Gardner Doaois, ed. (Dutton) THE MAGAZINE OF FANTASY AND SCIENCE FICTION: A 30 YEAR RETROSPECTIVE, Edward L. Ferman, ed. (Doubleday) ORBIT 21, Damon Knight, ed. (Harper & Row) BASILICK, Ellen Kushner, ed. (Ace) WHAT IF? Vol. 1, Richard A. Ludoff, ed. (Pocket) THEIR IMMORTAL HEARTS, [Bruce McAllister, ed.] (West Coast Poetry Review) DARK FORCES, Kirby McCauley, ed. (Viking) NEW VOICES III, George R. R. Martin, ed. (Berkley) NEBULA AWARDS FOURTEEN, Fredrick Pohl, ed. (Harper & Row) GALAXY: THIRTY YEARS OF INNOVATIVE SCIENCE FICTION, Fredrick Pohl, Martin H. Greenberg, and Joseph D. Olander, eds. (Playboy) THE ARBOR HOUSE TREASURY OF MODERN SCIENCE FICTION, Robert Silverberg and Martin H. Greenberg, eds. (Arbor House) THE ARBOR HOUSE TREASURY OF GREAT SCIENCE FICTION SHORT NOVELS, Robert Silverberg and Martin H. Greenberg, eds. (Arbor House) NEW DIMENSIONS 11, Robert Silverberg and Marta Randall, eds. (Pocket) THE 1980 ANNUAL WORLD'S BEST SF, Donald A. Wollheim, ed. (DAW) NON-FICTION AND ART IN JOY STILL FELT: THE AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF ISSAC ASIMOV, 1954-1978, Issac Asimov (Doubleday) SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY AUTHORS: A BIBLIOGRAPHY OF FIRST EDITIONS OF THEIR FICTION, L. W. Currey (G. K. Hall) THE SIXTH BOOK OF VIRGIL FINLAY, Gerry de la Ree, ed. (de la Ree) ROBERT A. HEINLEIN: AMERICA AS SCIENCE FICTION, H. Bruce Franklin (Oxford University Press) A HISTORY OF THE HUGO, NEBULA, AND INTERNATIONAL FANTASY AWARDS, revised edition, Donald Franson and Howard DeVore (Misfit Press) GIGER'S ALIEN, H. R. Giger (Big O) UNBUILDING, David Macaulay (Houghton-Mifflin) SCIENCE FICTION IN OLD SAN FRANCISCO, Vol 1: HISTORY OF THE MOVEMENT, Sam Moskowitz (Donald M. Grant) GRAHAM OAKLEY'S MAGICAL CHANGES, Graham Oakley (Atheneum) THE SCIENCE FICTIONARY, Ed Naha (Seaview) SAMUEL R. DELANY: A PRIMARY AND SECONDARY BIBLIOGRAPHY, 1962-1979, Michael W. Peplow and Robert S. Bravard (G. K. Hall) DREAM MAKERS, Charles Pratt (Berkley) THE LITERATURE OF FANTASY, Roger C. Schlobin (garland) JACK VANCE, Tim Underwood and Chuck Miller, eds. (Taplinger) THE CYBERNETIC IMAGINATION IN SCIENCE FICTION, Patricia S. Warrick (MIT) TEACHING SCIENCE FICTION: EDUCATION FOR TOMORROW, Jack Williamson, ed. (Owlswick) ------------------------------ Date: 29 Mar 1981 1119-PST From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE Subject: "Wizard" Just finished reading "Wizard" by John Varley, sequel to "Titan", and set within the same strange creature orbiting Saturn. Well-written, good characterization, an exciting read, but basically pointless. No reason is given for this creature Gaea's existence; an animal 1200 km in diameter and containing a habitable world inside itself doesn't evolve naturally, and no clue is given as to why one would want to design one. It's just an exotic setting for adventure. You can't use Mars anymore the way Edgar Rice Burroughs did, and it doesn't look like we'll find strange civilizations anywhere else in the solar system, so Varley had to go to these extreme lengths to set up a pulp adventure that could occur within the next fifty years. He's updated it of course with female protagonists and inter-species sex, plus lots of musing on the nature of heroism and so on, but it's still a comic book. I hope he doesn't waste his considerable talents on yet another sequel. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 1981 2105-EST From: JHENDLER at BBNA Subject: fuzzies Those who feel H. Beam Piper, the creator of "fuzzies" stole his idea, you are absolutely right. For a much more interesting (but less s.f.) treatment see VerCours' book "And Ye Shall Know Them." This book is one of the older "forerunners" of SF, and is highly recommended for historical interest. (btw, how about this book as an entry in the obscure sf list) also, for a nauseating treatment of this same theme, see the awful movie starring Burt Reynolds, the title of which I went out of my way to forget, and hope not to remember... -Jim ------------------------------ LARKE@MIT-ML (Sent by LARKE0@MIT-ML) 03/30/81 21:34:34 Re: Twilight Zone magazine The issue previously reported on is Issue number 2. The magazine seems to stand a fair chance of survival - not only is there fiction by name authors (Zelazny, Haldeman, et al.) but the reviews are even literate - book reviews by Ted Sturgeon and film reviews by Gahan Wilson. (yes, the cartoonist.) I buy it myself for the info on the TZ show itself. Being able to read the scripts themselves is worth the $2 cover charge alone, in my opinion.The episode guide is another plus, especially since all the episodes are being reprinted with the original Serling intros and outros. (you know - "Mr. Beemish has just taken his last trip...into the Twilight Zone.") All in all, pretty good stuff. This new issue, number 2, can be spotted by the Magritte painting of the man with a lightbulb for a face on the cover. Larry ------------------------------ ISRAEL@MIT-AI 03/30/81 16:14:09 Re: Sears radio theater In reference to the captain who was lucky to land his spacecraft on the side of the planet that had an atmosphere: It obviously was a Ringworld! - Bruce ------------------------------ Date: 30 Mar 1981 10:59 PST From: Kolling at PARC-MAXC Subject: semi-flying bees, etc. About evolution and the development of flight: There are animals that "sort of" fly, i.e., glide (from tree to tree?) for considerable distances without truly being able to fly in the sense that most birds do. I think some type of squirrel or some such does this. This seems like a logical intermediate step in the development of flight. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Mar 1981 1225-EST From: JoSH Subject: Evolution of wings Flying squirrels are the sort of intermediary step you're looking for. It seems fairly obvious to me how one can go from a jumping animal to a jumping animal with flaps or wide flat hands that help to steer and stop to flaps that help you go a little farther to a lot farther to a sailing animal (like a pterodactyl) to Archaeopteryx to a bird. --JoSH ------------------------------ FAUST@MIT-ML 03/30/81 16:30:48 Re: evolution and wings & light is faster than a speeding bullet For those following the evolution and wings discussion; It has been claimed that flying things cannot evolve incrementally. Then it was suggested that something can shake rattle and roll while in flight and that small wings might help. To all this I answer, has anyone taken a look at a grasshopper lately? These little gems jump about two feet in the air, and then (flapping like hell) coast for about 20 feet. Now admittedly, they cannot lift themselves off the ground with their wings alone, but 20 feet at a time sounds better than 2 to me! For those deciding whether or not they can open the refrigerator door faster than the light comes on, how do you know that the light ever went out since the last time you closed it? Even if it works by just pressing the door switch, that doesn't prove anything. After all, whose to say if a tree falling in a forest makes any noise when there is no one around to hear it? Just random comments, Greg ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 1981 at 1543-CST From: korner at UTEXAS-11 Subject: Reply to: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #80 Right on! Flight doesn't develop full blown (full flown?). Partial flight does however have survival value- and from partial flight comes full flight. My information is a couple years out of date but evolutionary speculation similar to the following must still be ongoing... 1) Most critters that live in trees hop from branch to branch at some point in time. Missing the target branch is not fun. Being able to make longer hops has survival value. Critters with webbed appendages get selected for as they glide better, etc. Examples are flying squirrels, flying (gliding) lizzards, and possibly primitive bats. 2) Birds are (were?) thought to have developed from ground running based insectivores who used their forelimbs to balance and scoop insects while chasing them at high speed. Feathers (prototypic) make a nice renewable scoops. Given scoops, musculature to handle them and a balance function- the scoops turn into airfoils (still not used for flight- more controlable spoilers than wings), use the musculature to thrust against the air for a bit of acceleration at crucial moments and you're on your way to a wing driven beastie... 3) Insects probably specialize similary. I haven't read anything about insect flight evolution (funny how one stumbles across gaps in one's readings only years later). The general idea is that evolution works in small steps and the approach to true flight is littered with survival advantages... ------------------------------ Date: 30 Mar 1981 08:42 PST From: Pettit at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: evolution of flight Your general observation about evolution requiring that the in-between stages of a genetic trait be advantageous is largely valid (although there are exceptions, primarily neutral traits which are somehow linked to other advantageous traits). There are enough gliding vertebrates around ("flying" squirrels and lizards, etc) with varying degrees of ability to glide from branch to branch or tree to tree to indicate that bird-like flight can evolve gradually as it increases the mobility of individuals. You might be interested in reading Stephen Jay Gould's excellent "This View of Life" columns from Natural History magazine. The latest one is on why living creatures can't evolve wheel-like feet or legs. There are two books of collected columns, the latest called "The Panda's Thumb". I don't remember the name of the earlier collection. A running theme in these columns is how the SUBoptimality of many biological traits best illustrate the operation of evolution, which has to "make do" with slightly modifying the mechanisms at hand. By the way, I think Natural History is the best magazine buy around. Of all the many magazines I subscribe to, it's the only one I almost always read cover-to-cover. Teri Pettit ------------------------------ Date: 29 Mar 1981 1231-PST From: William Gropp Subject: Stine's "surge" force I have mentioned this before. Several years ago, Stine published an article in Analog on Dean Drives. I read that article very carefully. Stine claims that the had observed a d^3x/dt^3 force effect. His evidence included the fact that ejection seats, launched by explosive charges, had a tendency to loose stabilizing fins. There is a much simpler explanation. The speed of sound is finite. As the charge goes off under the seat, the center of the seat starts up. The edges (and the fins), however, stay put until the shock wave from the charge reaches them through the metal of the ejection seat. This sets up (extreme) addition stress that is normally not encountered in engineering, and hence may cause established formulas for determining the how strong something needs to be made to grossly underestimate the required bracing. The same reasoning applies to the rotating apparatus (name?) that they (Stine's group) were experimenting with. There is no need to introduce a new force. It may be a bit strong to call Stine a "loony", but he can not expect to be taken seriously until he shows that existing physical laws cannot explain an observation. Note that if someone wants to put the work into it, I am sure that the d^3x/dt^3 law and conventional physics will make different predictions for some experiment with rapidly varing accelerations. Anyone out there game enough to try it? MtFBwY, Bill Gropp ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 1-APR "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #83 *** EOOH *** Date: 1 APR 1981 0656-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #83 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Wednesday, 1 Apr 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 83 Today's Topics: SF Books - 1980 LOCUS Recommended Reading List: Part III, SF Movies - The Howling, SF TV - Creationism Debate, SF Topics - Physics Today (Information Mechanics) & Synthesists & The Evolution of Flight ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 31 Mar 1981 2221-PST From: Jim McGrath Subject: 1980 LOCUS Recommended Reading List: Part III From this month's issue of LOCUS magazine comes the LOCUS recommended reading list, compiled by Charles Brown and many others (including Jeff Frane, Terry Carr, Gardner Dozois, and Mark R. Kelly) from their own private readings, various review columns, best seller lists, the Nebula awards ballots, and works generally considered popular in the market place. This list is intended to cover works appearing in the year 1980. Since the list is too long for a single message, but not long enough to justify FTPing, it is being sent in three parts. The first part contains the works in the NOVEL categories - SCIENCE FICTION, FANTASY, and BEST FIRST novels. The second part, contains recommended SHORT STORY collections and ANTHOLOGIES, as well as NON-FICTION and ART books. The third part, this message, contains individual stories in the NOVELLA, NOVELLETTE, and SHORT STORY categories. NOVELLAS Unicorn Tapestry, Suzy McKee Charnas (NEW DIMENSIONS 11) Soldier of the Empire Unacquainted with Defeat, Glen Cook (BERKLEY SHOWCASE 2) Wed of the Magi, Richard Cowper (F&SF - June) There Beneath the Silky-Trees and Whelmed in Deeper Gulphs Than Me, Avram Davidson (OTHER WORLDS 2) The Oracle, M. J. Engh (EDGES) Le Croix (The Cross), Barry Malzberg (THEIR IMMORTAL HEARTS) Nightflyers, George R. R. Martin (Analog - April) Their Immortal Hearts, Bruce McAllister (THEIR IMMORTAL HEARTS) Dangerous Games, Marta Randall (F&SF - April) THE PATCHWORK GIRL, Larry Niven On the North Pole of Pluto, Kim Stanley Robinson (ORBIT 21) Buoyant Ascent, Hilbert Schenck (WAVE RIDER) The Autopsy, Michael Shea (F&SF - December) Slow Music, James Tiptree (INTERFACES) NOVELLETTES Saving Face, Michael Bishop (UNIVERSE 10) Strata, Edward Bryant (F&SF - August) Scorched Supper on New Niger, Suzy McKee Charnes (NEW VOICES III) The Brave Little Toaster, Thomas M. Disch (F&SF - August) Earth and Stone, Robert Holdstock (INTERFACES) The Way Station, Stephen King (F&SF - April) Feesters in the Lake, Bob Leman (F&SF - October) Raising the Green Lion, Janet Morris (BERKLEY SHOWCASE 1) The Lordly Ones, Keith Roberts (F&SF - March) The Feast of St. Janis, Michael Swanwick (Triquarterly - Summer) Apotheosis of Myra, Walter Tevis (Playboy - July) Beatnik Bayou, John Varley (NEW VOICES III) Billy Big-Eyes, Howard Waldrop (BERKLEY SHOWCASE 1) The Ugly Chicken, Howard Waldrop (UNIVERSE 10) Variations on a Theme of Beethoven, Sharon Webb (Issac Asimov's - Feb) SHORT STORIES The Last Answer, Issac Asimov (Analog - January) Prairie Sun, Edward Bryant (Omni - October) Some of My Best Friends, Francois Camoin (Omni - May) Saint Amy's Tale, Orson Scott Card (Omni - December) Frozen Journey, Philip K. Dick (Playboy - December) Rautavaara's Case, Philip K. Dick (Omni - October) Men Like Us, David Drake (Omni - May) Secrets of the Heart, Charles L. Grant (F&SF - March) Lindsay and the Red City Blues, Joe Haldeman (DARK FORCES) Child of Darkness, P. C. Hodgell (BERKLEY SHOWCASE 2) The Fear That Men Call Courage, James Patrick Kelly (F&SF - September) Window, Bob Leman (F&SF - May) The Confessions of Hamo, Mary C. Pangborn (UNIVERSE 10) Our Lady of the Sauropods, Robert Silverberg (Omni - September) Grotto of the Dancing Deer, Clifford D. Simak (Analog - April) Prime Time, Norman Spinrad (Omni - November) A Sunday Visit to Great-Grandfather, Craig Strete (NEW DIMENSONS 11) Bug House, Lisa Tuttle (F&SF - June) The World SF Convention of 2080, Ian Watson (F&SF - October) The Dectective of Dreams, Gene Wolfe (DARK FORCES) ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 1981 1148-PST Sender: WMARTIN at OFFICE-3 Subject: The Howling From: Amy Newell (through WMartin at Office-3) Went to a special pre-St.Louis release showing of "The Howling" a week or so ago, and was generally impressed. As a rule, I spend most of the time in horror movies looking at someone's shoulder asking if the gore is gone, but found only one scene I couldn't watch. The effects were good -- werewolves growing before your very eyes and such. They used nearly every cheap scare you can think of, and they all worked. Also had a rather disturbing sex scene that was quite well done, at least as far as translating it from paper to film is concerned. There are at least two fan types in the movie, Forest Ackerman and someone whose name I don't recall at the moment, and the whole thing is full of jokes at itself and the genre. There really is a plot, and Patrick McNee as a sympathetic baddie. John Carradine has several fun lines that I can't give you without earning a spoiler. Had read the book during one of our bad winters when someone loaned me a copy, and found several story changes, but they may have made a better film. Can't say I was too impressed with the effects behind the opening credits, and would suggest that anyone prone to motion sickness keep their eyes closed until the film itself begins. As I didn't pay for either the film or the book it wouldn't seem gracious to complain too much, and it isn't bad for what it is. Suffice it to say we should all keep an eye on the six o'clock news. Thanks for letting me share a piece of my mind. Amy Newell ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 1981 1807-EST From: MD at MIT-XX Subject: Creationism Debate Since the Evolution vs. Creationism topic has been raised in SF-Lovers, I thought some readers in the Boston area might be interested in a debate Wed. April 1 at 8 pm in MIT room 10-250. A. E. Wilder-Smith, a scientist who promotes "Scientific Creationism" will debate a prominent MIT professor (who wishes to remain unpublicized to avoid "a media circus"). Prof. Phillip Morrison will act as moderator. It promises to be \very/ interesting. Michael Dornbrook ------------------------------ PCR@MIT-MC 03/31/81 07:34:41 Re: Information Mechanics The above is the title of a book by Frederick W. Kantor. His contention is that all of physics can be derived from a couple of assumptions and some juggling of arguments based on the transfer/conservation of information. He then proceeds to derive a multitude of presently accepted theories from his assumptions (example: He makes two or three assumptions, plays a bit, and out pops special Relativity). My question: Are there people out there in SFL-land who have knowledge of this work? Is it at all valid? (at one point, an equation makes an appearance that Kantor says indicates that the cosmological red-shift is caused by "tired light".) I'd like to know if I should believe any of this. I'd also like to know: if it *is* valid, why aren't physicists jumping up and down about the new theory? ...phil ------------------------------ PCR@MIT-MC 03/31/81 07:27:13 Re: synthesists The thought occurs to me that we cannot call two-subject specialists "synthesists". A synthesist would be knowledgeable in a multitude of subjects, not just two. Example: a bio-chemist is not an expert in both biology and chemistry, but just where those two fields overlap. ...phil ------------------------------ Date: 30 March 1981 1835-EST (Monday) From: David.Smith at CMU-10A (C410DS30) Subject: How an airplane flies Did you ever look at an F-15 wing? It is not symmetric. The leading edge curves downward. If lift were generated just by reaction of air against the lower surface, a flat plate would do for a wing. The upper surface must be shaped to maintain attached airflow. If the airflow detaches, lift is lost because there is no venturi effect. Most airliners cruise nose-up because they have been flying below their design cruise speed since the 1973 oil crunch. This reduces fuel consumption, in spite of the drag caused by the nose-up fuselage. Incidentally, this reminds me of a very plausible explanation of the case of the 727 which took a sudden nosedive over Lake Michigan a year or two ago. Pilots have found that by deploying the first increment of flaps during cruise can bring a 727's nose down and cut fuel consumption. (The flaps are extended rearward, increasing wing area, but are not tilted down.) Unfortunately, the flaps are commanded in unison with the (leading edge) slats. The slats can't stand extension at cruise speed. So, some pilots pull the circuit breaker for the slats and extend the flaps. The accident plane lost the left slat during cruise, and the crew erased the flight recorder tape after they landed. Hmmm. Back to the original subject. Consider the Kruger flap on the inboard leading edge of the 727's wing. It is hinged at the leading edge, extending down and slightly forward when deployed. You would think that air striking it would force the wing down (particularly when the airplane is nose up). But it in fact increases lift, because it increases the wing's camber. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Mar 1981 0230-EST Sender: WDEW at BBND Subject: Flight From: WDEW at BBND In fact, aircraft do get some lift from an upward tilting of the wing (though in looking out the window of an airplane, this effect is exaggerated because of the shape of the wing). I will leave a full explanation of angle-of-attack to the appropriate textbooks. The current method of explaining things which seem to have no gradual evolutionary path is to think harder and find one. In the case of flight, it is surmised that wings began as something which allowed the animal to better be able to survive a fall (some styles of cockroaches are at this stage). Later, the usefulness of being able to glide comes in ('flying squirrels (sp?)'). Of course, it's even more useful to have powered flight (pteranodons, then birds). Actually, the traditional example of something seemingly lacking any possible evolutionary track is the eye (though one can make up some possibilities here, too, if one thinks hard enough). Warren J Dew ------------------------------ Date: 30 Mar 1981 1237-PST From: Craig W. Reynolds from III via Rand Subject: Sprouting wings Jeffrey Shrager brings up a very good point, how does incremental evolution explain major differences between species? This kind of thinking has lead to a more recent (post-Darwinian) theory of evolution called "punctuated equilibria". The idea is that a "species" is a stable pattern. Species may undergo Darwinian incremental evolution, the those changes are VERY slow, almost to the point of not mattering. In this view, new species are created (like birds from lizards) when a massive random mutation occurs, creating what must be considered a "monster" - not a proper member of the original species. Usually, of course, these monsters die out (from being unfit, less fit, or unable to reproduce), but once in a great while there is a "happy monster" which not only survives, but thrives. Eventually through parallel mutation or crossbreeding a new species is created. - Craig ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 2-APR "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #84 *** EOOH *** Date: 2 APR 1981 0633-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #84 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Thursday, 2 Apr 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 84 Today's Topics: SF Books - Fuzzies, SF Topics - Creationism Debate & The Evolution of Flight ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 1 Apr 1981 1146-PST From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE Subject: fuzzies; rare sf reminder A friend of mine read Piper's fuzzies books yesterday and liked them -- thought the fuzzies were cute. Also, a last reminder to get your favorite unknown sf and fantasy titles to or.tovey@SCORE. The deadline is this Friday, April 3. good reading, --cat ------------------------------ Date: 01 APR 1981 1110-EST From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: lecture I'm a bit dismayed to find LSC committing such a disservice to its members, its customers, and the institute that tolerates it. "Scientific Creationism" is no more scientific than the Scientific People in Bester's THE STARS MY DESTINATION---and since the public supporters of this idiocy are more practiced in debating tricks, statistical manipulations, and political-style Big Lies than the average scientist, giving them room to speak virtually always generates more smog and heat than light. Of course, if the number of T-shirts I've seen bearing the motto of Miskatonic University ("Ex luce ad tenebrum; ex ignorantia ad sapientam" [I don't promise that the cases are exactly correct]) is any indication, that may be what students are looking for. ------------------------------ Date: 01 APR 1981 1051-EST From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: flight and evolution When did the paleontologists decide that pteranodons could actually fly rather than just gliding? ------------------------------ Date: 1 April 1981 18:07-EST From: Dale R. Worley Subject: Evolution of the wing and reinventing the wheel Finding the evolution of the wing being discussed in SF-LOVERS, I decided to look up the subject in the source, namely "Origin of the Species". Finding "Flight, powers of, how acquired" listed in the index, I was directed to a section "On the Absence or Rarity of Transitional Varieties" in Chapter VI, "Difficulties of the Theory". This chapter also has sections on "Organs of Extreme Perfection" and various other objections. Considering that nothing that has been said in SF-LOVERS is not discussed in Origin of the Species, let's agree that all persons who wish to contribute to the evolution/creation debate here must first read "Origin of the Species" and "Descent of Man". Dale ------------------------------ KARIM@MIT-MC 04/01/81 10:46:41 Re: Flight evolution, creationists, and bored pilots Can anyone explain why a squirrel with its arms and feet slightly webbed (say, only a fraction of an inch), bother passing that attribute to its descendants and come up with flight? The "monster" theory is the only thing that seems to work here. That means there must be a lot of monsters walking around. And can anyone tell me, why, after such a nice feature evolved in squirrels, there are more un-winged copies of the little beasties out there than winged ones? And shouldn't there still be an evolution chain, i.e., the children of plain squirrels should today be flying squirrels, and the children of yesterday's flying squirrels should be , and the children of yesterday's should be birdies? I don't know. It just seems to me that anyway you explain it along these lines ends up just "going out of its way"; i.e. having too much speculation and not enough facts. I think it boils down to: If you believe in evolution, you must admit you're using faith. I think faith should be left to religion and comprehension-by-observation-only (or, at least, mostly) left to the scientists. A short note, re MD's letter about the evolution vs. creationism debate today (mentioned in Wednesday's SFL): I would be interested in hearing about it. I hope someone that goes will send a summary of what went on to me (or SFL, if anyone cares). My prediction: Evolutionists will think the "Unknown Prof" made more sense (read: won) and Creationists will think Mr. Wilder- Smith made more sense (read: won). Everyone will walk away assured that what they've believed all along was just substantiated, neither party will say anything "new", and there will be no swaying of anyone's opinion. Remember, you heard it here first. And about that 727 that went super (sonic, as opposed to hyper (light)) over Lake Michigan.... I heard a story (told to me by the teacher in my aviation class) about what the FAA finally concluded: The crew flying the craft got bored (God, how did 727's evolve? From food vending trucks that drove around with their dropleaf sides folded out....You say that's not it, God?) ...I guess staring dead at an instrument panel for 2000 miles at 30,000 feet \can/ get somewhat boring. You're bored, in an airplane that isn't too exciting: what do you do? Here's what happened: "Yawn." "Hey, the circut breaker that controls the seat belt sign just blew." "So reset it." "Ok." (pause) "Whoops!" "Hey, the cabin light just went out!" "I know; I hit the wrong breaker switch. Just a sec." (Engineer resets cabin lights and seat belt sign) "There." "I wonder what this is..." (pause) "I hear the gear doors trying to -- what are you doing?" "Just at the panel here...ha ha! I just turned off the power to the oven in the galley!" "ha ha ha...Hey, try one on me -- see if I can guess!" "Ok..." (Flips switch) "What is that, then?" "Ummm..." (listens intently) "Air conditioning to First Class?" "No!! That's disabling the intercom system." "That's too hard -- how could I hear that? Give me another." "Oh, ok." (Searches for easier breaker switch) "Here's a funny looking one." -*- snap -*- (slats on one wing screw up, wing loses lift, wing falls, other wing follows, repeat 200 times or until well- shaken). So after that, what else are they gonna do except erase the recoder? All that dialog on it, and everything? And I'm not kidding (sure, I embellished the story a wee bit, but the teacher even told it better) -- isn't that what the FAA really decided? Anyone on SFL know more? Ah, well. If pilots had CRT displays that could play Asteroids when they got bored and would signal an interrupt when something went wrong, it would keep them happy and get evasive-maneuver skills honed to a fine edge. Not that I would hope a pilot would need such skills.... hoo-haa, Karim ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 3-APR "JPM at MIT-ML" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #85 *** EOOH *** Date: 3 APR 1981 0718-EST From: JPM at MIT-ML Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #85 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Friday, 3 Apr 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 85 Today's Topics: SF Movies - Excalibur, SF Topics - Physics Today (Information Mechanics) & Creationism Debate & The Evolution of Flight & Mythical Research ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 Apr 1981 1837-PST From: Jim McGrath Subject: Review of EXCALIBUR By RICHARD FREEDMAN Newhouse News Service (UNDATED) A new trend in sword-and-sorcery movies that is supposed to wean the youth market away from science fiction gets off to a limp start with ''Excalibur,'' an excruciating travesty of Arthurian material that makes the Prince Valiant comic strip seem sophisticated by comparison. Supposedly on the way are ''Dragonslayer'' starring Sir Ralph Richardson, ''The Sword'' and ''Conan'' with muscleman Arnold Schwarzenegger as the title hero assisted by James Earl Jones and Max Von Sydow. They'd have to go some to be as awful as ''Excalibur.'' The legends surrounding King Arthur, his Knights of the Round Table and their quest for the Holy Grail - quaintty known to Medievalists as The Matter of Britain - have intrigued and inspired the Western mind from Malory's 15th century compilation ''Mort d'Arthur'' through Wagner, Tennyson and T.S. Eliot down to the Lerner-Loewe musical ''Camelot.'' In ''Excalibur'' they are reduced by producer, director and co-writer John Boorman - who has also managed to cast three of his children in the picture - to the level of a television soap opera for pre-adolescents, although the film labors mightily to achieve an ''R'' rating. Here again are our old friends, the wizard Merlin (that fine actor Nicol Williamson, wearing a silver skullcap and campily discoursing in a bewildering variety of accents, sometimes within the same sentence), Arthur himself (Nigel Terry, looking like a combination of a British beach boy and Jimmy Carter) and his wicked half-sister the magician Morgana (Helen Mirren, made up to look like a Medieval Miss Piggy). Arthur becomes king when he is able to draw the sword Excalibur from a rock made of Philadelphia Cream Cheese. He then erects Camelot in order to house the Round Table - a splendid Art Deco object that would have looked more at home in the office of Sam Goldwyn - where his knights sit around in full armor and loudly discuss affairs of state. Topmost on their minds is the illicit affair between Lancelot (Nicholas Clay) and Arthur's bride Guinevere (Cherie Lunghi), who have a nude love scene together that's supposed to remind you of Adam and Eve - complete with attendant snakes - totally ignoring the Irish climate, where the movie was shot. Then it's off we go in pursuit of the Holy Grail, although what in fact that is, or its religious significance, ''Excalibur'' can't be bothered to explain. Only Perceval (Paul Geoffrey) proves chaste and persistent enough to survive Morgana's enchantments and win the chalice in time to bring it back to Arthur, who, like the audience, is by this time dying of old age. ''Excalibur'' makes no attempt at historical authenticity, which is reasonable since the very existence of Camelot is shrouded in the mists of time and legend. Yet we do know that knights wore armor only for battle, not for breakfast and other civilian pursuits, and that cooch dances of the sort featured in ''Excalibur'' were probably unknown to Arthurian entertainment. All this is filmed through sickly green filters, in case Ireland doesn't seem green enough, and to the accompaniment of incessant shouting and heavenly choirs. But the real musical hero of ''Excalibur'' is Wagner, whose works have been pillaged mercilessly - and anachronistically - throughout. All battle scenes are to the ominous accompaniment of Siegfried's funeral music from ''Die Gotterdaemmerung.'' The ludicrous love scenes between Lancelot and Guenevere are set to ''Tristan and Isolde'' (one can just hear Boorman saying: ''Tristan? Lancelot? Same difference.''), and ''Parsifal'' - slightly more appropriately - accompanies Perceval's quest for the grail. It is characteristic of the general shoddiness of ''Excalibur,'' then, that Wagner receives only fleeting mention in the final credits, after Liberty's of London for supplying ''ethnic jewelry'' - whatever that is - to this doomed enterprise, and the Irish film stunt squad from falling off so many horses. FILM CLIP: ''Excalibur.'' A teeny-bopper's version of King Arthur, The Round Table and the quest for the Holy Grail, all wrapped into one noisy, vulgar and ludicrous package deal with music by Wagner, whose ghost should sue. Rated ''R.'' One star. [ For another review of Excalibur see Volume 3, Issue 81 (Sunday, 29 Mar 1981) of SF-LOVERS. - Jim ] ------------------------------ PCR@MIT-MC 04/02/81 07:28:30 Re: Oops, I forgot... Information Mechanics is published by John Wiley & Sons, Inc. Copyright 1977. If anybody is interested, I can summarize a couple of results for them. I can send them direct, or send them to SFL if demand is great enough. ...phil ------------------------------ Date: 2 Apr 1981 0911-PST From: Achenbach at SUMEX-AIM Subject: Oh, all right, evolutionism vs. creationism To me the difference in position of evolutionists v. creationists lies in that chapter entitled "Difficulties On Theory". I've looked, but can't seem to find the analogous chapter in the Bible (or the Koran, or the Bhagavad-gita). /Mike ------------------------------ DGSHAP@MIT-AI 04/02/81 16:27:24 Re: evolution (SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #83) There are a couple of things about evolution that don't make sense to me. The first is a simple observation. Where are all of tomorrow's evolutionary failures? If every species in the world is busy evolving into or out of something else via a series of random mutations, why isn't every other living thing covered with an assortment of semi-useless flaps, bulges, stubs, proto-organs, and potential appendages (not to mention bizarre behavioral traits)? All these variations HAVE to be tried before selection can select amongst them. The second question I have is about combinatorics. What is the possible space of mutations (the cardinality if you will) and what is the rate at which the space is being explored? When you get to thinking about it, if a mutation is some (single?) substitution of base pairs in some DNA strand somewhere, there are an ungodly number of them. And random mutation had to account for every chemical reaction in your body? Every enzyme had to be created by nose first exploration? I simply can't believe that 4 billion years (admittedly, an ungodly large amount of time) is sufficient to explore a problem of this size. It's got to be one of those "if you used every atom in the universe to compute with, you still couldn't get there" questions. Maybe the answer is inheritance of acquired characteristics. On the other hand, there could be a great deal more structure to mutations than meets the eye (one or two?). Rather than think about a mutation as a random perturbation of the bits in a DNA sequence, think about a mutation as a spontaneous variation in a high level vocabulary which describes the parts of living things; i.e., you get a single mutation and you grow another pair of legs, or an augmentation of the Krebs' cycle. This implies that mutations are constrained to produce a subset of *interesting* things that may or may not be viable as opposed to a potentially infinite number of not necessarily relevant effects. I am also suggesting that the mechanisms for mutation are constrained to certain allowable pathways (deviate from this track and something REALLY disgusting happens to your offspring). Furthermore, the processes effected by these variations (like the Krebs cycle and additions thereto) have to have an internal organization that is tight enough to allow them to be controlled by single vocabulary elements. In the face of all the complexity inside living things, this is a rather bizarre, and potent claim. Does anyone know of anybody thinking these kinds of thoughts in research? The more I hear about this topic, the more it sounds like DNA is natures' tool for programming (at the molecular level). I've heard of DNA based subroutines, flagging mechanisms, encoding schemes, and error correction methods as well. It has got to be the case that this analogy can be pushed further. Dan ------------------------------ Date: 1 Apr 1981 1700-PST Sender: LEAVITT at USC-ISI Subject: Evolution and Mutation From: Mike Leavitt As I understand it, it is not just mutation that produces catastrophic species change, but rather, mutation combined with catastrophic environment change, so that old niches are destroyed, new ones created, and some new, previously selectively-neutral mutations become positively beneficial. Mike ------------------------------ Date: 2 April 1981 03:00 est From: Schauble.Multics at MIT-Multics Subject: Nothing left to be invented.... Several times in the history of the Patent Office it was quite seriously in danger of being abolished because the high muckey-mucks thought there was nothing left to be invented. I hope they know better now, but....... ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 4-APR "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #86 *** EOOH *** Date: 4 APR 1981 1014-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #86 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Saturday, 4 Apr 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 86 Today's Topics: SF Fandom - Prisoner Fan Club, SF Books - Dream Park, SF Movies - ENIAC, SF Topics - DNA programming & Gene Pool & Evolution of Flight & Creationism Debate ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 3 Apr 1981 1249-PST From: Griffin at SUMEX-AIM Subject: Prisoner (not a spoiler - just a relay) Is there a Prisoner Fan Club somewhere? K. Griggin ------------------------------ TANG@MIT-AI 04/03/81 12:32:27 Re: Dream Park Dream Park, by Larry Niven and some random (who I hope isn't reading this. . . .) is a new Trade Paperback I just read. Nano-review: A fair to good read, worse than anything else Niven has written, with the possible exception of The Patchwork Girl. Micro-review: In a Disney Land of the future the security manager must join a group of intrepid D&Ders (who are undertaking the untested South Seas Treasure simulation) in order to discover the thief & (possibly) murderer among them. Part of the first section was previously printed in Destinies, but that section has nothing to do with the rest of the book. Zork & MIT are mentioned, as are a lot of Filk songs, Reagan, and the Quake of '85. The cover is a good hack, with a role reversal of the typical hero fending off the sea monster whilest the sexy women cower. . . . The book has only one illustration. . . . There are a few good ideas, and some muddling attempts at real characters. Worth reading, but certainly not a 'classic'. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Apr 1981 (Friday) 1906-EDT From: SHRAGE at WHARTON-10 ( Jeffrey Shrager) Subject: The following appeared in the Daily Pensylvania's "34th St." magazine's movie section with no apparent explanation: "ENIAC: Penn's new computer runs amok! 'I told you not to print out tonight!'" [Don't ask ... I don't know either -- Jeff] ------------------------------ Date: 3 Apr 1981 14:11:39-PST From: ucbvax!ihnss!hobs (John Hobson) Subject: The Supersonic 727 In SFL (Vol3:83) April 2 \fIHUH?!?\fP What's this about a 727 going supersonic over Lake Michigan? I don't know (nor does Cheri Ruben) anything about this. Please get Karim to explain. May your sheep bear only twins, John ------------------------------ Date: 3 Apr 1981 1226-PST From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE Subject: re: DNA programming I was leafing through a 1979 volume of Icarus ("A journal of planetary studies",Carl Sagan, ed.) when I came upon the bizarre idea of using DNA as a means of interstellar communication. You put your message in an unused section of some virus's genetic material and shoot it off into space. If it lands anywhere it replicates itself a trillion times and so can't be missed. Some Japanese researchers proposed this and took the logical next step of looking for messages in known sequences. Apparently there is a virus for which the DNA sequence is completely known, so they took the parts of it that weren't thought to do anything else and tried to arrange them into pictures. They assigned a number to each base pair and put them into arrays with some small prime number of rows and columns. Didn't look like much of anything to me. Regarding DNA as a high level language for specifying biological structures, this is an idea that was pushed by Arthur Koestler, a very literate critic of evolution. The variation in, say, neck length in giraffes would take a huge of amount of information to specify exactly ("make vertebrae this much larger in exactly these areas, lengthen this set of five million blood vessels and 500 million nerves by this amount", and so on), so the thought is that only a few base pairs can specify the form of large structure ("multiply neck length by x"). The other method would be to have systems that adapted organs to outside conditions. Each vertebrae would grow so as to distribute the load on it in some optimal fashion. The organism would be like a distributed processing system with each cell a CPU assigned some task like "I'm a bone cell so I act to maintain the pressure on me at x". I don't know if this theory has any credence among biologists. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Apr 1981 0925-EST From: Jeff Shulman Subject: The Gene Pool As something to think about: As more medical progress is made more and more people, who would otherwise die (cripples, mutants, people born with birth defects, etc.), are living a full life and sometimes are having children. I am not saying they should or should not, but, they ARE screwing up the natural evolutionary trends (survival of the fittest and such). The gene pool of the human population is slowly getting worse because of it. On '60 Minutes' a few weeks back they had a segment on some disease (the name escapes me) that was almost always passed on to offspring. The females who had it decided on voluntary sterilization so they couldn't have children with this disease. Remember that this is strictly a personal opinion: people who do `fit' into this category of genetic `mutations' (for lack of a better way to put it) should NOT have children. This should be the decision of those people should make on their own. If not perhaps mandatory sterilization. I know, `who is to say a disease or condition is passed on to their children or the chance is .01%'. To that I say better safe than sorry until genetic research can prove either way. Adoption might be an answer for these people. Can or should this be done? Who knows. It is a touchy subject at best. Jeff ------------------------------ Date: 2 Apr 1981 2133-EST From: BURROWS "Jim Burrows" 2-APR-1981 16:21 Sender: YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO Subj: RE: "SFL Volume 3,Issues 76-81" RE: Shrager's evolutionary dilemma The first time I heard this argument was in 1970 in a philosophy class, and I'm sure it's been around since at least Henri Bergson's time. As I first encountered it, the example was bats. Clearly, bats are viable, and their flightless ancestors, which presumably resemble mice, make ecological sense, but what of the poor intermediary, whose half-developed wings won't allow it to fly, but make it significantly more helpless on the ground. How can it compete with things that are not so encumbered? Somehow suggestions like Doug Phillips' flapping, wiggling pre-bird and other hypothetical intermediaries feel pretty unconvincing. Six years after I first it, I still hadn't heard a plausible intermediary suggested. Then I walked into the Smithsonian, and saw the damned thing. It was a flying squirrel from Africa. It was the biggest flying squirrel in the case, and it had one finger that was about 5 times the length of the others. It extended the flap out to form something that really could be called a proto-wing. I stupid there staring at it 'till the woman I was working for asked what was wrong. I asked her if she saw anything unusual about the beast, and she didn't. After I explained that it was the counter example for a really old argument, we started poking around in the stacks. (If you ever get the opportunity to work at the Smithsonian - jump.) We found another one, pickled in a jar. It's digit was even longer. I've since learned that there were only three such specimens in the country, and that until about the time I spotted it in DC, it (or at least the proto-wing) had never been written up in the journals. A friend of a friend independently spotted it in a Chicago museum, and used it for her thesis. I've also seen a picture in PBS's "Wild World of Animals" of another flying squirrel from Borneo whose hand is half way between its head and "wing-tip". I think there are several interesting aspects to this story. First, the counter-example to one of the oldest unrebutted arguments in the evolution debate has been on public display for years (30 or 40, if I remember correctly) without ever being noticed. Second, this very interesting specimen has been collected and on public display for years without being reported in the literature, which points out one of the results of the information explosion. We're pushing the fronteers of science and knowledge in general much faster than we can explore the territory, let alone "colonize", to over extend a metaphore. Finally, there's the beast itself and its relation to the original argument (remember the argument?). At least in this case, and more or less in the case of the eye, which was also used as an example of untenable intermediaries, plausible extrapolations can finally be made. Using what we know about regular flying squirrels, bats, birds, Pterasaurs, and these super-squirrels, (and I suppose the flying snakes and lizards of Borneo) one can come up with a plausible evolutionary path from ground dweller to a tree climber, to a tree leaper (like sqirrels), to assisted leapers, to gliders, to gliders that can actually gain altitude (WWoA claimed the Borneo flying squirrel could), to true flyers, with nothing that can't compete. This doesn't mean there aren't "aspects of organism that can not develope in small steps since their full form is required in order to effect the desired result at all." It just means the jointed wing isn't it. Anybody care to explain where bee wings came from? Sorry to get so long winded. Comes from too many philosophy classes. /s/ Brons ------------------------------ Date: 2 Apr 1981 2211-PST From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE Subject: Darwin, paleontology debate I took a course from S.J.Gould on the history of paleontology a few years ago. A few comments: 1) you can't ever fully convince a creationist that (s)he is wrong any more than you can convince a Darwinist of being wrong. For one thing, any being powerful enough to create the earth could create a fossil history, too. Remember them putting in the fossil layers in Hitchhiker's Guide? 2) To quote Gould, "Though Darwin considered the paleontological record to be mostly an embarrassment to his theory, he put up a brave show in his chapter 'On the imperfection of the fossil record'." The simple fact of the matter is that there are big gaps in the fossil record. Gould said that anyone who has studied the fossil record knows (and he should know) that it is \discontinuous/. You get a layer containing one group of fossils from a bunch of species, quite uniform throughout, and then you get another layer, quite distinct, containing new species which were not present in the previous layer. To be sure, there are a few relatively well-established sequences now (e.g. the little horses) but all in all the "links" just aren't to be seen. 3) What Darwin does in the Origin of Species is to document, extremely carefully and exhaustively, the origin of subspecies. (In fact, Origin as we know it was just the \abstract/ of an enormous multi-volume work which Darwin never got around to writing). Darwin did this so well that virtually everyone now agrees that subspecies do evolve, and that this evolution is driven by natural selection. However, when it comes to the origin of species -- animals that can produce fertile offspring are said to be members of the same species -- Darwin just says that, in the same way, over longer periods of time, you get a new species, a new genus, a new family, etc. However, Darwin does not provide any documentation of the origin of a species, no more than we can today. It has never been observed. 4) Darwin's theory is very compelling, and the "state-of-the-art" Darwin theory is in my opinion a good one (population genetics and Gould's evolution-on-the-fringes stuff). But I am a little surprised at the closed-minded attitudes of some...why be so sure about things? I wonder if the theory of the ether was any less reasonable in its time than Darwin's theory is now. Which brings me to an SF writer's question: if you were writing an sf book and wanted to avoid its looking silly in a few decades, like a lot of stuff from the 1930's does today, what would you do? What theories seem more likely to last? Is this an inherent long-term disadvantage of hard sf? --cat ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 5-APR "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #87 *** EOOH *** Date: 5 APR 1981 1038-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #87 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Sunday, 5 Apr 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 87 Today's Topics: SF Fandom - Prisoner Fan Club, SF Movies - So Bad It's Good, SF Topics - Gene Pool & Evolution of Flight & Creationism Debate ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 4 Apr 81 10:16:25-PDT From: mclure at Sri-Unix There are two clubs listed in the ads section of LOCUS: The Prisoner Newsletter P.O. Box 1327 Midland MI 48640 The Green Dome Florence Hatcher 824 W 176 St. NY, NY 10033 ------------------------------ Date: 4 Apr 1981 02:32:05-PST From: ARPAVAX.arnold at Berkeley Subject: Ain't late night TV wonderful? Here I am sitting up way past my bedtime, and instead of being punished, my naughtiness is being rewarded by a local CBS affiliate showing a Japanese monster film "Destroy All Planets", which starts out with a spaceship coming to attack the earth which is driven off by a jet-driven tortoise whose jets they try to extinguish by smothering the flames to deprive it of oxygen so it can't fly around in space. It has inspired me to wonder how bad a movie has to be to be funny. Obviously most of the Japanese horror films are tacky enough, but something like (and here I may get in trouble) "The Black Hole" seems just stupid and dull. The Japanese have no monopoly on this so-bad-it's-good stuff. For example, there is a horrid little piece of tripe called "The Magic Sword" which came out of Hollywood (date unknown) with, for example, a Sir Pedro from Spain, a Sir John from England, a Sir Patrick from Ireland, a Sir Pierre from France, etc., plus the most unconvincing magic I've seen. But they seem to produce it most consistently. Some Vincent Price films sort of fall in the middle: not good enough to be considered failures, but not bad enough to bother watching. How bad does it have to get? Ken P.S. The flying tortoise appears to be a good guy. At least the whiz- kid Japanese boy scout says so, and if you can't trust the boy scout, who can you trust? And the spaceship talks to itself to tell itself what it's doing and why, so it's probably psychotic. (Maybe that should have been a spoiler warning?) ------------------------------ Date: 4 April 1981 18:03-EST From: James A. Cox Subject: Eugenics and congenital diseases I read with increasing pain a submission to SFL from Shulman at Rutgers. In this submission he expresses several opinions which dismayed me because I had not realized that such beliefs were still held by responsible and intelligent people. In the first place, he says that the fact that people with genetic diseases have children is thwarting the "process of natural selection" and causing the human gene-pool to deteriorate. This is not true. To show that the gene-pool is "deteriorating", he would have to assert that these people are having more than their "fair share" of children; if everyone is having children, the gene-pool does not "deteriorate" but instead remains the same. Also, he fails to grasp the fact that no single gene-pool is better or worse that any other. Natural selection will favor those people who have traits that enable them to best survive through child-bearing years. If a trait has no effect on this, then it is not important as far as natural selection is concerned. Natural selection cannot be "corrupted," except by exactly the sort of eugenics practices that Mr. Shulman encourages. Second, I hope that Mr. Shulman realizes that less scrupulous people have used exactly this same argument to justify practices that most people would find evil. And remember that their purpose was the same as Mr. Shulman's: to improve the human race. Now of course I am not suggesting that this is a parallel situation. However, it is well to keep the events of 1933-1945 in mind, especially when one advocates mandatory sterilization. Remember that mandatory sterilization has to be enforced by the government, and slavery and the McCarthy era adequately demonstrate that even the governments most committed to individual liberty can be corrupted. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Apr 1981 (Friday) 2043-EDT From: SHRAGE at WHARTON-10 ( Jeffrey Shrager) Subject: Evolution that is certainly not in Darwin: I would like very much to write an article for The Journal of Irreproducible Results on the evolutionary necessity of the Unicorn [in particular] and other mythical creatures. I think that some work has been done in the folklore departments concerning the creation of the Unicorn myth but I'd like to prove [by typical JIR-like reasoning if need-be] that there Unicorn existed and was lost due to evolution for some good reason. I think that this would be a fun thing to think about. Anyone who suggests anything interesting buys themselves an acknowledgments if the article becomes reality. -- Jeff [ The Journal of Irreproducible results is mentioned in Issues 60 and 63 of this current volume (3). - Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 4 Apr 1981 1201-PST From: Mike Peeler Subject: Evolution -- what *NOT* to object to Some people object to the theory of evolution because they do not see how it works. Perhaps a few simple observations will make it clearer. Mutations are not physical anomalies, but gene changes. Purely physical advantages and disadvantages are uninteresting because they have only a short-term effect -- one generation. The process of gene transcription has (somehow) developed so as not to make mistakes. Despite this, so many cells divide, copying so many genes, that mistakes are bound to happen in any complex organism, due to cosmic rays or viral attack or clerical error. These are the exception rather than the rule. Furthermore, the only mutations that matter are those that will affect the genetic makeup of the offspring. Thus mutations with any long-term effect at all are rare. When they do happen, most mutations do nothing. You may have heard that most mutations are detrimental, but that is not true, because most traits are nonessential. A random mutation is likely not to affect its own survival. Those genes that are detrimental die out, those that make no difference survive, and those that are beneficial proliferate. (The really good genes know how to make friends and influence congresspeople, spreading from family to family, invading nation upon nation, and infecting each and every body in succeeding generations until the entire species has become infested with ugly monsters!) This spreading of the wealth, as opposed to mere survival, has proven the downfall of many an ambitious pesticide, which, in their eagerness to stamp out their pest, merely invoked natural selection in favor of resistant strains. Each mutation consists of one gene from many -- very many. Evolution is exceedingly slow. Chickens might take weeks, or even months, to perfect their beautiful lips. Nature does not have in mind some ideal organism, the best possible life form. She has no plan, or at any rate, the theory does not require she have one. The one thing nature does have is time to let the many and varied branches of life try their little undirected experiments. Not all of the possibilities must be tried; some variations of protoplasmic architectures never get a chance to prove themselves good or bad, to dominate or die. If they go untried, they have been ipso facto selected against. There is no need to traverse the entire space of possible mutations (moron this later). We do not see a lot of weird, ultimately doomed creatures roaming the earth, because they have all descended from creatures which survived and which they resemble. We do not see a vast panorama of nature's evolutionary pattern because our window is too small. We have every reason to be impatient and nature has none. Modern population genetics treats Darwin's theory of evolution as only a first-order approximation. Natural selection in this form is perhaps better described as "survival of the mediocre" rather than of the "fittest". The problem with being "fit" is that taking too much advantage of the environment becomes a liability when it changes. The fact is that a gene without particular disadvantages is likely to perpetuate itself even though it does not become widespread. The doctrine of social Darwinism, which Jeff Shulman seems to have come upon, says we should purge the unfit from our society. Living in a society which does not kill them is a survival trait that makes the weak viable. They are ipso facto fit. Man has often found unexpected value from its useless hangers-on. Like, for example, the fellow who first invented the wheel was a bum who used to loiter around the entrances to coed caves studying the curvature of heels. ------------------------- Readers with a mathematical inclination may wish to skip to the next paragraph. The space of possible mutations is not really a question of cardinality per se, since it is finite and finite cardinals are uninteresting as cardinalities. If m is an upper bound on the number of states any gene has and n is an upper bound on the number of genes any organism has, then m to the n is an upper bound on the space of possible mutations. These upper bounds still exist if mutations are allowed to increase the number of genes per organism and/or the number of states per gene, since it would still take an infinite number of mutations to prevent the existence of either of these bounds. An infinite number of mutations can only occur after an infinite length of time, as any finite time period consists of a finite union of intervals in each of which only a finite number of mutations occur, since a replication can change at most all the genes. If you wait forever, of course, then you might find that the number of genes goes wild at least every so often, in such a way that any upper bound is eventually exceeded. But then, do you really have all eternity to waste like that, when you could be watching old B movies on TV? Here's lookin' at Euclid, Mike Peeler ------------------------------ Date: 4 Apr 1981 at 1436-PST From: Andrew Knutsen Subject: evolutionary intermediates What about "flying fish"? These fish can glide for several hundred feet from a wave crest, if my memory serves me correctly. I have pulled several other very strange looking things out of the ocean, too, as little ocean fishing as I have done. The argument that "fish don't evolve into birds" is irrelevant. We're talking about a potential process, not actual history. I think one of the main blocks to acceptance of evolution theory (aside from dogma) is that the time spans involved are very difficult (if not impossible) to fit into the human brain. The phrase "four billion years" is easy to rattle off, and Carl Sagans graphic calander helps a little, but... ------------------------------ DRW@MIT-AI 04/04/81 00:27:54 Re: Surge mechanics, limitations on size of effects The fundamental equation of surge mechanics can be phrased: F = m ( a + D da/dt ) where D is a constant that depends (possibly) on the composition of an object, but not its mass. Note D has the dimensions of time. Suggestions have been made that D is about 1 millisecond to get the effects surge mechanics is claimed to give. I have stored an analysis of the implications of surge mechanics in USERS1;DRW SURGE. The basic result is that any bound system accumulates energy with a time constant proportional to the "orbit period" squared of the system and inversely proportional to D. Since we can observe if bound systems accumulate energy, we can put upper bounds on D. The best (smallest) upper bounds come from systems with very small "orbit period" that we can show cannot be accumulating energy very quickly. If D is much larger than 1E-22 sec, then gasses produce significant amounts of heat. If D is much larger than 1E-44 sec, then atomic nuclei generate significant amounts of energy over laboratory time scales (100 sec). If D is much larger than 1E-60 sec, then atomic nuclei generate significant amounts of energy over cosmological time scales (1E9 years). Dale [ The file containing the mention analysis resides at MIT-AI as AI:USERS1;DRW SURGE. - Jim ] ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 6-APR "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #88 *** EOOH *** Date: 6 APR 1981 0708-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #88 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Monday, 6 Apr 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 88 Today's Topics: SF Movies - So Bad It's Good, SF Topics - Gene Pool & Evolution of Flight ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 Apr 1981 08:51:58-PST From: CSVAX.douglas at Berkeley Subject: destroy all planets.(1968 Japanese) Other interesting logic in that movie was the enemy with its six striped ball space ship notices the giant tortoise loves children and will do anything to save and protect them, kidnaps two children and orders the tortoise to do as it says else they kill the children. What they tell him to do is to kill many people(including hundreds of children) by destroying a dam and stomping tokyo like it was a cockroach living in a deck of cards. The tortoise see the children being destroyed by his actions. hum??? ps: Well at least there wasn't a giant talking cauliflower in this movie. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Apr 1981 1421-PST (Saturday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: Touch-Tone DNA; Chlorinating the gene pool The idea of setting up communications via DNA (in such prize packages as viruses) is certainly an interesting one. Of course, this idea was one of the concepts mentioned in "Andromeda Strain". "Egads! Everyone on the planet is dying of Multinetzian Plague." "Guess someone was trying to reach us..." ---- It is certainly true that modern civilization tends to disrupt the overall path of evolution (whatever THAT is!) However, why stop complaining at genetic diseases? Ever use antibiotics for a bad infection? If you did, you disrupted evolution... since you might otherwise have died and not been able to pass along the propensity for that particular disease. Wear glasses? Shame on you! If glasses didn't allow you function well in society, you might not survive and myopia could be wiped out! I submit that the really BIG issue that is altering the gene pool is the differential number of children being born in different areas of the world, and even between different socioeconomic groups within the U.S. itself. --Lauren-- ------------------------------ Date: 5 Apr 1981 2130-EST From: JoSH Subject: dysgenics and artificial natural selection I was at one time quite concerned with the problem of the dysgenic effects of supportive medicine, as expressed by J.Shulman. I even wrote a paper (for an ethics class!) advocating selective infanticide. However, being genuinely concerned with the issue, I wrote a simulation of the genetic pool deterioration effect and ran it. It turns out that the population shifts slightly in the short run but no continuing long-term shift is evident--that is, the bad gene does not spread aggressively, just up to a reasonably low equilibrium, and stays there. I was somewhat surprised by the result, but was not able to discover any mistake. So, take heart. --JoSH ------------------------------ Date: 5 April 1981 1500-EST (Sunday) From: Joe.Newcomer at CMU-10A Subject: Eugenics Evolution is an interesting filter: what we claim about "eugenics" and "purity of the gene pool" and such is directly related to some idealized model of man; whether or not this idealized model has anything to do with reality seems to escape most people; the stronger they advocate eugenics, the further from reality they seem to get. What was a survival characteristic even as little as a few hundred years ago may be irrelevant today (say, propensity towards diabetes). The point made in the recent SFL #86, that a survival characteristic is what allows someone to survive and bear children, is a quite sufficient criterion. We have lost a lot of primitive skills (if indeed they existed) because they are no longer necessary. If they ever become necessary, only those who possess them will survive; if nobody has them, we are all on equal terms and the race may or may not survive. Deciding what these characteristics are is sort of hard in the absence of any environmental pressure. For example, sickle-cell anemia is a survival characteristic in areas in which malaria is present. Do we, or do we not, decide that a family history of sickle-cell anemia is grounds for sterilization? Or only if one lives in certain areas? The basic problem with all "eugenic" techniques is that they require government intervention. And once you decide that diabetics, sickle-cell anemics, etc. should not propagate, what about paranoids, schizoids, etc.? What about any tendency towards rebellion? Independent thought? Black/Red/Yellow/Off-white skin? Non-blond hair? Forget it. I like the pure evolutionary approach---those who survive, survive. And we get Steinmetz, Edison, ... [After all, survival is a racial characteristic (in the sense of human race, as opposed, say, to races of porpoises). If the race can evolve sufficient skills that sharp sense of smell is no longer required, or complete body hair, why is any other characteristic which our intelligence can make irrelevant important, such as diabetes, hemophilia, etc.] Even Republicans should like it; the ultimate government-unregulated free-enterprise system... joe ------------------------------ Date: 5 Apr 1981 1856-EST From: Jeff Shulman Subject: Now don't get me wrong, I was just playing 'Devils Advocate' I just wish to state that the degeneration of the gene pool by current advances in technology was originally mentioned by some prominent person in this society. I would be the first person to state that such practices of mandatory sterilization would be totally wrong. Yes I am aware such practices were tried before in history, to my own people in fact in Nazi Germany. What ever happens to the gene pool is evolutionary anyway. Whether it be via natural, natural selection or manmade (some could argue this is also natural selection), natural selection. Back as a senior in high school my english teacher said that we smarter people (it was honors english, heaven knows how *I* wound up in it) tend to generally have fewer children since we are aware of the consequences (such as mass starvation from overpopulation, etc.). While the dumber sector (she mentioned people on welfare who just have babies to get more welfare) will just keep having babies. I completely forgot about this until recently when I read a short story (in OMNI perhaps) where just this future scenario happened: Only a handful of people knew how to operate or take care of anything and the rest just lived off them. It was in OMNI! and of course it was in the issue on evolution (October 80). The name is "The Marching Morons" by C. M. Kornbluth. I highly suggest it. Anyway, let's stop talking biology and get back to SF! Jeff ------------------------------ Date: 5 April 1981 12:43-EST From: Dale R. Worley Subject: Programming with DNA I'm glad to see that the level of discussion on evolution/creation has improved over the last week. The best way to visualize how DNA makes bodies is that the body is a collection of tiny message passing computers. Each cell has its own control mechanism, and cells communicate by passing chemical messages to and from neighbors and the fluid intercellular medium (including blood and lymph). The question is, how to best make such a system? The most effective (and easiest to obtain by natural selection) is not to have a central controller, but to have each cell respond to its neighbors in a way that spontaneously causes the desired structures to arise. This is actually a lot easier to do than it seems; human engineers have just been so oriented toward "make a blueprint, then make each piece that the blueprint specifies, then assemble the pieces according to the blueprint" that we have essentially no examples of self-organizing structures in the mechanical world. The fact is, that most parts of the body have their form "programmed" only partially. For instance, certain chemicals administered to pregnant women can cause various malformations of their children. Clearly, these malformations are not genetically programmed. However, if a limb is misshapen, it still has all parts supplied with blood, nerves, etc., and is covered with reasonably normal skin. In fact, almost none of us look like the pictures in Grey's Anatomy, we all have small deviations from the normal anatomy. (Mostly in the wiring of blood vessels, nerves, and muscles. Also note that these are the deviations least likely to be maladaptive, and so there is no selective pressure to evolve mechanisms to suppress them.) Another nice example is the single-gene mutation "polydactyly" (extra fingers). This gene causes the bearer to have six fingers on each hand and six toes on each foot. The fingers and toes are perfectly normal. This is clearly a mutation in the part of code that controls the number of digits on each limb. Proof that the form of each digit is controlled by the same code is that mutations that affect the form of one digit usually affect them all. See "law of coordinated variation" in Origin of Species for more examples. Nor is this feedback-dominated behavior found only during development. If you remove one kidney from an animal, it can survive quite nicely (there is plenty of extra capacity). But, the other kidney enlarges and makes more filtering units. There is some feedback loop that detects overuse of the available kidney capacity and causes more to be developed. Another effect is the continuous remodeling of bone. Bone substance is not deposited once and then left forever. It is continuously being reconstructed. If a fracture heals and leaves sharp edges and areas of high stress, bone is removed from the edges and deposited at the areas of high stress. The process is controlled by piezo-electrically generated electric fields in the bone. This is exactly the sort of feeble-minded but quite adequate control mechanisms that one would expect natural selection to develop. There was an article on this in Scientific American several years ago. Now, if we go down a level and consider how the DNA controls the cell, we see about the same thing. Each gene (with its associated control regions, etc.) is a little processor that passes chemical messages with other genes. Some of these messages control the actions of the cell per se, others are just control signals. A few of these messages are actually processors in their own right (e.g., the proteins which operate the impulse generating system of nerve cells). Mutations to the DNA can take many forms: Modification of a single nucleotide Insertion or deletion of one to hundreds of thousands of nucleotides Exchange of homologous portions of the DNA on homologous chromosomes Major cut-and-paste operations on chromosomes themselves (inversions, transpositions, etc.) Total loss or duplication of a chromosome Complete duplication of the genome (this appears to be nonviable in mammals, but is not uncommon in plants and other animals) Incorporation of DNA carried by a virus vector (I know it sounds ridiculous, but there was a "reliable" report that the house cat has some genes that are clearly of primate origin a few years ago. Anyway, it's conceivable.) Study of the genetic differences between species leads to the subject of "molecular evolution", which gives very strong evidence that not only have species descended from common ancestors, but that they have done so by natural selection. More about this in a further letter. All I will say here is that we and the chimpanzees differ in no more than 0.5% of our DNA, and probably less. Some biologists wonder how we can be so different looking with so little change in DNA. But, given the current research in the natural behavior of chimps, are we really that different? This is a very hot topic of current research. For those of you at MIT, there is a book, "Principles of Human Biochemical Genetics" reserved for 20.216 in the StudCenter library that discusses many of these issues. As far as John Redford's idea of spreading a virus throughout space, might not stage trees be better? Mike Peeler's bringing up flying fish is interesting. Suppose there were no birds, and there was something worth eating a few inches (centimeters?) above the surface of the water. The flying fish uses its ability only to escape predators. But, ONCE THEY ATTAINED THE ABILITY TO GET INTO THE AIR, there would be great selective pressure for flying fish to become better flyers. This would present later naturalists with the interesting puzzle to figure out how the flying fish attained the ability to fly, since rudimentary flying ability is no good for catching bugs in midair. Of course, the idea that crude flight evolved as a means to avoid predators would be dismissed as pure speculation. This example is discussed in more detail in Origin. May your genes be fruitful and multiply, Dale ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 7-APR "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #89 *** EOOH *** Date: 7 APR 1981 0721-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #89 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Tuesday, 7 Apr 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 89 Today's Topics: Administrativia - Not a Missing Digest, SF Events - Shuttle landing, SF Fandom - Prisoner Fan Club, SF Books - Sturgeon on DNA ("The Golden Helix") & Grinnell Iowa in SF, SF Movies - So Bad It's Good, SF TV - Buck Rogers, SF Topics - Evolution of Unicorns & Gene Pool & DNA programming ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 6 Apr 1980 19:32 PST From: The Moderator Subject: Administrivia - Not a Missing Digest This is issue 89 of the digest. For the past week all digests have been incorrectly numbered, due to an unfortunate oversight in the April 1 and April 2 digests. Both of these digests were numbered 83, when in actuality the April 1 digest was 83 and the April 2 digest was 84. All of the intervening digests that have been distributed (84 to 87) should have thier issue number incremented by one. The archives will be corrected so as to reflect this change in numbering. Jim ------------------------------ Date: 6 Apr 1981 10:57 PST From: HOFFMAN at PARC-MAXC Subject: Shuttle Landing A while ago, several people said they would be trying to watch the first shuttle landing at Edwards AFB. A quick suggestion now that it might happen this week: SFL folks who are there ought to wear their SFL T-Shirts if they can. I probably will be there. -- Rodney Hoffman ------------------------------ Date: 6 Apr 1981 1153-EST From: KERN at RUTGERS Subject: Probably more frustrating than useful msg about "Prisoner" fanclubs There is a British fan club of "The Prisoner" called "Six of One", which has annual conventions at the Welsh hotel where the show was filmed. They also offer Prisoner memorabilia: buttons, shirts, Rovers, etc. I heard a couple of years ago that they were setting up an American branch of the club. The people in Mensa's Prisoner SIG probably know how to get in touch with 6of1. Alas, I can't tell you how to get in touch with either group. If you find someone who saves copies of the Mensa Bulletin, you could find the address of the Prisoner SIG in one of the quarterly SIG listings. Be seeing you. -kbk ------------------------------ Date: 6 Apr 1981 (Monday) 0917-EDT From: SHRAGE at WHARTON-10 ( Jeffrey Shrager) Subject: Some related sf for a "SF" digest -- Sturgeon on DNA Quite by accident I picked up "The Golden Helix" last evening. In this short, Sturgeon conceives a world where fully developed (and successful) life forms are "reverse evolved" into their origins [by some undiscussed, and irrelevant, radiation effect]. The purpose of this unmutation is supposedly to strip the gene pool of the "physical factors" that make humans human and leave intact the "seeds of intellect" in the form of what amount to gene pods. [This description certainly does no justice to Sturgeon] The real interesting part of "The Golden Helix" is its name and the use of a certain object [the namesake] to symbolize this reverse evolution and then re-evolution that the story discusses. Why is this interesting? The story was written in approximately 10 years before the helical structure of DNA was discovered! [Del (I think) puts out a collection called "The Golden Helix" which contains an author's intro indicating this revelation.] -- Jeff [Since I started it I thought I might try to bring it back to SF a bit] ------------------------------ DRW@MIT-AI 04/06/81 10:32:43 Re: Grinnell, Iowa in SF Being a native of Grinnell, Iowa, I am interested in any references to it in the literature. It appears to me that it is referenced more than would be statistically expected, given its population is somewhat less than 10,000. The references I have now are: Heinlein Puppet Masters Bradbury Martian Chronicles If any of you have run across Grinnell, Iowa in your reading, could you drop me a note? Many thanks, Dale ------------------------------ Date: 6 Apr 1981 1548-PST From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE Subject: Japanese films and Target Earth I don't know about "Destroy all Planets", but some Japanese films seem much stupider in their American release versions than they do in the original. Apparently, many of them are much longer (about 3 hours) and are cut drastically for the American audience. And typically it is the dialogue scene which explains the plot which gets cut, and the monster steps on city scene which remains. One of the Godzilla movies, I think, was really mangled...the whole plot centered around the capture and attempted rescue of a very very VIP, (a prince I think), but all the footage involving this character was cut until he is saved in the last minute of the film. As you can guess, the plot did not appear to be well motivated. The worst film I've seen in a long time was "Space Probe: Target Earth", on local TV a week or two ago. It was an hour and a half of film documentary on the Siberian explosion (including brief talks with Niven and Pournelle) thought to be a black hole or a meteor or a comet, put together with 10 minutes of an actor talking with a CRT and a frog (pretending to be studying Earth), 2 minutes of "time warp" of 3 women wearing aluminum foil and pyramids, trying to look like alien explorers crashing into the earth, and 15 minutes of world war I and II documentaries (!). Talk about low budget.... --cat ------------------------------ Date: 06 Apr 1981 0835-PST From: Jim McGrath Subject: Buck Rogers By JERRY BUCK AP Television Writer LOS ANGELES (AP) - John Mantley, who has a reputation as a doctor of sick TV shows, has been attending to an anemic ''Buck Rogers'' this year. The patient has shown signs of improvement, but the likelihood of a full recovery seems remote. ''What I'm putting on the air today is a far cry from what I ought to be doing,' said Mantley. ''The holes in some scripts are embarrassing, but we don't have time to correct them.'' Mantley, who previously produced ''Wild Wild West,'' ''Gunsmoke'' and ''How the West Was Won,'' took over the NBC series after it had limped along for two years. ''This is absolutely the most difficult project I've ever done,'' he said. ''You've got to create a new world every week. You've got a new wardrobe, new location and all kinds of effects. We have enormous wardrobe problems, enormous set problems, enormous makeup problems, enormous budget problems. ''You spend so much time on the effects you don't have time for the human stories. Without the actors' strike, which gave us time to prepare, this show would have self-destructed in a few weeks.'' In the Thursday night series, Gil Gerard stars as Buck Rogers, a present-day astronaut who is frozen while on a space mission and wakes up in the 25th century. Erin Gray stars as Wilma Deering. The series is adapted from the comic strip created in 1929 by Dick Calkins and Phil Nowlan. Mantley said he agreed to take over the show for several reasons. For one, he owed favors to people, not the least of whom was Fred Silverman, president of NBC. ''Fred said it has potential, and maybe you can fix it,'' he said. ''I owed a lot to Fred.'' Another reason, he said, ''I've always loved science fiction. My first book, 'The 27th Day,' was science fiction and was made into a movie. I wrote science fiction for the pulps, and I own the rights to Isaac Asimov's 'I, Robot' and 'The Rest of the Robots.' ''And the third reason,'' Mantley said, ''is that the remuneration was extraordinary.'' He wouldn't mention a figure, but reports in the industry indicate his salary is not merely extraordinary - it is astronomical. Few television stars make as much. The reason he was able to command such a salary was that Universal was anxious to recover its enormous investment in the show. If Mantley could just keep ''Buck Rogers'' going a few more years, the syndication and merchandising value of the series would increase greatly. After looking at only a few shows, Mantley said he knew he had to drastically revamp the show. ''For my taste, I thought the shows were empty,'' he said, ''but I don't think I've done a hell of a lot better. ''The first thing I did was get them away from Earth. I felt it as a restrictive atmosphere, and so did the network. I came up with the concept of the Searcher, a spaceship looking for the 'lost tribes of Earth.' In every great civilization there have been migrations, from the Puritans to the boat people. It seemed to be to be logical that after the atomic war people would have left Earth.'' He also set out to give Buck Rogers more dimension as a character. ''I wanted to stretch Gil Gerard as I did James Arness on 'Gunsmoke,' '' he said. Some of the changes caused controversy. Some viewers had complained that the voice of Twiki the robot was too cute. But even more viewers demanded the return of Mel Blanc as the voice. ''So we brought Mel back and got still more letters,'' Mantley said. One characteristic of science fiction fans is that they are not reluctant to take pen in hand to express a thought about a show. ''It seems astounding,'' said Mantley. ''A thousand years ago when I did 'Wild Wild West' I never got letters telling me how to do the show. Now we get some very intelligent letters that go into great detail. And some are violently opposed to the changes. In 11 years of 'Gunsmoke' I don't think I got more than a handful of letters expressing anger over a show. But science fiction has very, very devoted fans.'' ------------------------------ Date: 6 Apr 1981 09:28 PST From: Chapman.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: The Evolution of Unicorns With regard to doing research about Unicorns. . .a couple of acquaintances of mine in the Berkeley area have done extensive research on this subject. They came to realize that until the period of the Renaissance, the Unicorn was pictured as a goat with one horn, which only later turned into a horse with a horn. They reasoned that a one-horned goat was much more likely to have been real, since goats do have horns naturally. They then set out on a careful breeding plan, and about two years ago, the first real, live unicorn was born on their ranch, and named Lancelot. Please do not take me for a kook. I was very scepticle myself, but I saw and touched and played with Lancelot at the Fantasy Worlds Convention held in Berkeley February of this year. It seems that there may be something besides just genetics involved, although that helps. When I asked Morning Glory, she said something akin to Bonsai was also involved but would go no further since their lawyer is trying to patent the process. The point of this experiment which worked is that Unicorns, although now considered mythical, really existed. They were, perhaps, sports, probably rare. But they have a reputation for being smarter than others of their breed, and fiercer. Historically, mythically, they were used as herd leaders, because they were better as defending the group than their more normal counterparts. Several half-brothers and half-sisters of Lancelot are expected to be born this spring, and the people who are working with these unusual creatures will be starting to show them around at some limited Science Fiction/Fantasy events. If you are interested, I will try to dig up the address for writing for more info. Please respond to me directly; if interest is high, I will send the info to SF-LOVERS. Cheryl ------------------------------ Date: 6 Apr 81 12:11:24-PDT From: mclure at Sri-Unix Subject: concerning 'unicorns' I, too, have seen this thing... at a local SF convention, and on t.v. in the Bay Area. However, it seems more like a simple case of a couple of charlatans (one named Morninglory, no less) pulling the wool over people's eyes. It is unfortunate that they can sell so many doo-dads and knick-knacks to naive people. [ Lancelot has been mentioned in the digest before in issue 66 of this volume, Friday, March 13. It was in connection with the San Jose Convention that was held at that time. - Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 6 Apr 1981 11:38 PST From: Kolling at PARC-MAXC Subject: Gene Pool While we're deciding which people to throw overboard: I once heard that there is presently a "weak genetic link" between nearsightedness and intelligence. Such a choice I have for you..... ------------------------------ Date: 6 Apr 1981 1036-MST From: Spencer W. Thomas Subject: Genes from Viruses There are quite a few people running around today with some virus genes in their genome. When the Salk vaccine was first developed, it came from monkeys. It seems that some of these monkeys were infected with a virus called SV40 (Simian Virus 40) which can also infect humans. Well, the vaccine carried these viruses along with it, and they inserted their genetic material into the genetic material of the people who were vaccinated. It seems to be a passive virus, but may cause cancer. Anyway, this is well documented in the biological literature, and there are even conferences about SV40. If anybody wants some literature pointers, I can probably get something from one of my biologist friends. -S ------------------------------ Date: 6 April 1981 1733-EST From: Paul Hilfinger at CMU-10A Subject: Use of viruses for communication How do you build a virus that really will multiply when it reaches its destination? Natural viruses, by and large, seem to be rather picky about their hosts. Can they be built so that they'll be happy in a rather wide range of possible conditions? After all, even if we stick to a protein-based biology, there's still plenty of room for small variations that would make life difficult for most self-respecting organisms. Mightn't a bacterium (one thatform spores, that is) be a better choice? Paul Hilfinger ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 8-APR "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #90 *** EOOH *** Date: 8 APR 1981 0705-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #90 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Wednesday, 8 Apr 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 90 Today's Topics: SF Events - Space Shuttle Landing, SF Fandom - Prisoner Fan Clubs, SF Books - A is for Andromeda, SF TV - Outer Limits & Gene Pool & Search for Planets --------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 Apr 1981 0853-PST From: Daul at OFFICE Subject: SPACE SHUTTLE LANDING From the official letter from NASA's Dryden Flight Research Center: "We are issuing car passes for at least 30,000 vehicles to this site and traffic will be limited to back roads. The State of California traffic department estimates that it will be only able to move 1,000 vehicles per hour so a massive traffic jam could occur." They have a 24-hour telephone information number: "A 24-hour telephone information service will be operated from Lancaster, California, and Washington, D.C., to provide recorded Shuttle flight status and hours of operation for the Guest Center. The number in Lancaster is (805) 945 6776. The number in Washington is (202) 755 8363." I haven't tried the phone numbers. I hope this is of to use to some readers. --Bill ------------------------------ Date: 7 Apr 1981 (Tuesday) 0751-PST From: DWS at LLL-MFE Subject: Prisoner Fan Clubs The address of the MENSA Prisoner SIG is: Prisoner: Jean-Marc Lofficier 382 Palos Verdes Bl. #3 Redondo Beach, CA 90277 SIG dues are $4/yr, including newsletter (6/yr). Sample is $.50 & SASE. MENSA address (for prospective members) is: American MENSA Limited Membership Information 1701 West Third Street, Ste. 1-R Brooklyn, NY 11223 (212) 376-1925 For those not motivated to take an I.Q. test to see if they qualify, MENSA accepts numerous other tests. (E.G. if your SAT combined math and verbal exceeds 1300 (for tests prior to 9/77) or 1250 (test later than 9/77), or your combined GRE math and verbal exceeds 1250, then you qualify). Then San Francisco chapter has a membership of about 2000, and is fairly active -- parties every week. I'd be glad to supply anybody with more information. -- Dave Smith ------ ------------------------------ Date: 7 Apr 1981 1630-PST From: CSD.SPREITZER at SU-SCORE Subject: bio-communication I seem to vaguely recall a story titled something like "A is for Andromeda", in which (one way) intergalactic communication is achieved by send instruction on how to build & program a computer system that then "grew" an ambassador. - S'mike ------------------------------ Date: 7 Apr 1981 0927-PST From: Achenbach at SUMEX-AIM Subject: Outer Limits in the Bay Area For those if you in the SF Bay Area, in case you haven't noticed yet, channel 20 has moved the Outer Limits to a much more reasonable time: Saturday at 10:00 PM and Sunday at 8:00 PM (it used to be Friday and Saturday at 1:00AM) Hot Damn!! /Mike ------------------------------ Date: 7 Apr 1981 1700-PST From: First@SUMEX-AIM Subject: Rover Bubblegum/Undone evolution Two comments/questions: 1) I see in the message about the Prisoner "6 in 1" club that there is memorabilia for sale, including "Rover" (for those Prisoner-virgins, "rover" is this device/creature/thing (?) that resembles a giant bubble of pink bubblegum which could track people down and engulf them, with sometimes fatal results). Exactly what was Rover made of? Is it just a huge pink balloon? (I would give anything to go to one of those conventions at the Village!!) 2) Speaking of aberrations in the gene pool, it could be argued that th entire direction of human evolution has been a tremendous mistake: If nature (and genes) have a single purpose (or at least inclination), it is to transfer some part of the genes to the next generation. With the advent of intelligence as a trait, evolution has outdone (and maybe undone) itself. The most significant trait which distinguishes man from primates is the vastly greater intelligence, so one could imagine why intelligence as a trait has been selected for. But now that our intelligence has given us the ability to pollute the environment and virtually destroy ourselves and everything else on the planet by atomic war, it would seem that intelligence of this order maybe wasn't such a good idea after all, at least from nature's point of view. Then again, maybe a nuclear holocaust is nature's way of eliminating this "undesirable" trait. (But w/o intelligence, where would the SF-LOVERS list be, or even the ARPANET) --Michael ------------------------------ Date: 04 Apr 1981 0827-PST From: Jim McGrath Subject: Search for Planets By Albert Sehlstedt Jr. (c) 1981 The Baltimore Sun (Field News Service) GREENBELT, Md. - There are about 10 other suns near enough to the Earth's corner of the Milky Way that may have planets visible through the space telescope, according to an astronomer associated with the project. The fundamental question, of course, is: Are there people on those planets? The space telescope, to be launched into a 310-mile-high orbit of the Earth in 1985 by the manned space shuttle, ought to be able to detect such planets if any of them are relatively large, said James A. Westphal, professor of planetary science at the California Institute of Technology, Pasadena. Finding other planets in the universe would be a key step in determining the answer to the age-old question of whether there is other life - similar to life on Earth - somewhere in the enormous expanse of the universe. Professor Westphal, the leader of a team of scientists making a planetary camera for the space telescope, was at the National Aeronautics and Space Administration's Goddard Space Flight Center here last week for a scientific meeting evaluating the current status of the flying scope. Goddard will send operational radio commands to the telescope in response to requests of astronomers viewing the skies from the Space Telescope Science Institute, to be built on the Homewood campus of the Johns Hopkins University. Westphal said in an interview that there are two ways the telescope would be able to detect planets in other solar systems. The first way, which he called a ''marginal'' possibility, would be to see them directly through the instrument in the same manner that a backyard astronomer looks at Mars or Saturn. The other way would be to use the telescope to detect a perturbation - or wobble - in one of the suns under observation. This knowledge would indicate that the particular sun in the eye of the scope was feeling the gravitational pull of a nearby object, invisible though it might be from the environs of Earth. A planet would have to be quite large - the size of a Jupiter, perhaps - for it to be visible against the bright light emanating from the star it was orbiting, Professor Westphal explained. To put it another way, an astronomer somewhere else in this galazy might be able to spot Jupiter or Saturn in this solar system, but would not find Earth, which is not only much smaller than those two planets but closer to the sun's bright light. The Cal Tech astronomer said he was personally interested in focusing the telescope on a neighboring galaxy, designated M-87, which has a ''very, very large black hole - one of those things where everything is falling into it and disappearing.'' Looking through the space telescope, Professor Westphal said, he would hope to be able to say of M-87: ''Yes, it really does have that black hole in the middle.'' Black holes are former stars which, after collapsing into an extremely dense state, have an extraordinarily powerful gravitational field. The field is so strong that nothing - not even visible light or radio waves - can escape from it. Another object of interest for the space telescope, Professor Westphal said, would be Pluto, one of the outer planets of this solar system that can only be seen now as a point of light in the sky. The space telescope will be able to see the shape of Pluto that astronomers believe has a moon orbiting it. Other fascinating objects of discovery may be things in the universe that scientists would not even guess exist, Westphal said. Other astronomers share that opinion. ''There's a long history of that in astronomy,'' the Cal Tech scientist continued, citing the example of Galileo looking through his rudimentary scope in the Seventeenth Century and finding craters on the moon. ''This is almost as big a step as Galileo building his telescope,'' Professor Westphal said of the space telescope project. The space telescope, which will have a 95-inch mirror, is by no means the largest such instrument in the world (the one on Palomar Mountain in Southern California has a 200-inch mirror, for example) but it will operate with the incalculable advantage of being above the veil of the Earth's atmosphere. (There are several advantages to building telescopes with mirrors - called reflecting telescopes - one of them being that the instruments can be made much larger). With the reflecting space telescope, astronomers expect to behold much of the universe with a clarity never before possible. The telescope will have a 15-year life and crews aboard the space shuttle can fly up to repair the instrument if necessary. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 9-APR "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #91 *** EOOH *** Date: 9 APR 1981 0646-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #91 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Thursday, 9 Apr 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 91 Today's Topics: SF Events - SFL Tshirts, SF Books - A is for Andromeda & Here's the Plot What's the Title, SF TV - Prisoner & Outer Limits query, SF Topics - astro programs & DNA programming & Evolution of Unicorns, Humor - Unicorns ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Apr 1981 10:40 PST From: Brodie at PARC-MAXC Subject: SFL T-Shirt deadline---LAST REMINDER Anyone who wants an SFL T-shirt, but has not yet ordered one, should put the check in the mail today. This is it. All orders must be in by April 15. For information about shirts and ordering, send mail to SFL-TshirtS@MIT-AI. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Apr 1981 11:58 PST From: Reed.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #90 "A is for Andromeda" was by Fred Hoyle. The communication was received via radio telescopes. It wasn't until the humans began following instructions that the "biological ambassador" became a reality. An interesting story on non-earth evolution is The Black Cloud (also by Hoyle). In this novel, a cloud of interstellar dust approaches the sun to drink up its energy and wreaks havoc on Earth until humans manage to communicate with it. -- Larry -- ------------------------------ Date: 8 Apr 1981 1158-PST From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE Subject: Here's the plot & unicorns Can someone identify the book (a rare-sf entry) from the following information? The story takes place in a world or a town or just somewhere in which there are two races which I will denote by A and B. The two races are really the same species although they don't really know it. Some time in the past, the A's tried to dominate the B's and got punished for it, so that now the A's act as servants to the B's. In particular, the B's feed off the A's in a weird fashion -- they face each other and tendrils come out of the B to encircle the A, drawing off life force. Every once in a while an A gets to become a B. The name of the book is the ritual of this transformation. The book appeared in hardback in some libraries, was the first of a projected series of two or three, and had the address of the authors (2 people) you could write to about the next volume on the back of the book. Re the unicorn, I talked with the owners at the Renaissance Faire: there is no breeding involved. It is simply a matter of removing one of the horns and transplanting the other to the center of the head when the goat is young. (I said simply, but it is apparently a complicated enough process that they want to patent it). good reading, --cat ------------------------------ Date: 8 Apr 1981 11:32 PST From: Kolling at PARC-MAXC Subject: Prisoner The rovers were meteorological balloons. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Apr 1981 1753-PST From: First@SUMEX-AIM Subject: Outer Limits Query Congrats on having Outer Limits on in the Bay Area--luckily Pittsburgh has had it on for a couple of years in a twice weekly dose. My favorite episode is one entitled "Controlled Experiment" which I have only seen once. It starred Carroll O'Connor and the story was basically that a Martian is assigned to the Earth as an observer and attempts to find out the "causes" of violent acts by observing a shooting in a hotel lobby. But the gimmick is that he has a machine which can play with time such that the situation can be observed again and again, in slow motion, and with alterations made--a controlled experiment. (THIS IS NOT A SPOILER--THIS IS ONLY A PIECE OF THE PREMISE). What I want to know is who wrote the teleplay, and is it based on a short story? Thanks. --Michael ------------------------------ Date: 3 April 1981 10:37 est From: JRDavis.LOGO at MIT-Multics Subject: DNA as programming In Friday's Digest, Dan Shapiro (DGSHAP) expressed the opinion that genes must contain 'high-level' encodings for most traits, and that mutations must occur mostly in these high-level encodings. I'm not a biologist, but I believe him. If genotype is expressed in a 'high level language' then where is the interpreter/compiler? (Actually, N levels of them.) Perhaps also encoded in the DNA, as a sort of 'microcode'? The 'hardware' (ribosomes, etc.) seems pretty low level - as I understand it it just blindly transcribes, anyplace it can find the proper tag to begin at, so it must be in the DNA. One wonders how great is the genetic difference between members of a species. In an interpretive scheme it would be slight. So we can test this if we have a technique for comparing two strains of DNA from two different organisms. This of course says nothing (evolution/creation) about how such a complex scheme of things ever began. Finally, those interested in analogies between DNA coding and programs should see "Godel, Escher, Bach. an Eternal Golden Braid", by Douglas Hoffstadter. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Apr 1981 at 1402-PST From: Andrew Knutsen Subject: astro programs Sender: knutsen at Sri-Unix Does anyone out there, in NASA-land perhaps, know of an available program (or programs) in a 'standard' language that calculates the positions of the planets and notes conjunctions etc? What I have in mind is something I can run as a batch job every night or week. There already exists a sun and moon program. Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: 7 Apr 1981 08:09 PST From: Chapman.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: The Living Unicorn I take exception to your slur upon Morning Glory and her husband, and your suggestion that they are charlatans. These are sincere people, who are into mysticism, it is true, but just because you don't agree with their world view doesn't mean you have to insult them. The things they sell help support their research and are at least partly driven by the desire of other people to own mementos of this unusual creature. (When Lancelot appeared at the Fantasy Worlds Festival, Morning Glory had to apologize for his appearance. Someone has snuck into his pen and cut off huge hunks of his coat, apparently hoping to capitalize on the souvenir value this has attained. Morning Glory and her husband were appalled. It had never occurred to them that they were going to have to protect Lancelot from this sort of thing, because they are hardly aware that such people exist. Yes, they themselves are somewhat naive.) They are not charlatans ("one who claims to possess knowledge or skill that he does not have," American Heritage Dictionary). They do know how to create Unicorns, and are the only people in thousands of years who have bothered to figure out how to do this. As I said before, I have played with Lancelot, touched him, examined his horn. It is a real, single horn, emanating from the center of his head. It does have a slight depression in the vertical direction, approximately where you would imagine two horns that had been bound together would meet (remember that Morning Glory said something akin to Bonsai was also involved), but the horn is a single, integral unit, not two separate horns growing very close together. The animal is real, and similar animals probably were real thousands of years ago. Whether they had any of the mystical powers attributed to them is mote. Unicorns are not myths. Cheryl ------------------------------ Date: 8 APR 1981 0832-EST From: Marty c/o procep at MIT-AI Subject: Unicorns and evolution The unicorn obviously died out due to the attraction the males of the species had for human females, which led them to neglect their female counterparts of the unicorn species. Not to mention that impregnating with a horn is often fatal, and therefore not a survival trait. Marty ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 10-APR "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #92 *** EOOH *** Date: 10 APR 1981 0617-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #92 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Friday, 10 Apr 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 92 Today's Topics: SF Books - Here's the Plot What's the Title & The Changing Land & Changeling, SF Topics - Magnetic Monopole query & Information Mechanics & DNA programming & Unicorn making ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RP@MIT-MC 04/09/81 08:25:32 Re: short story Can anyone identify the following ss: A child discovers or causes a cube (non-Rubik type) to be suspended in the air in his yard. No attempts to move it succeed. What is the end of the story? Does is simply go away again? ------------------------------ Date: 9 Apr 1981 13:01:42-PST From: CSVAX.hamachi at Berkeley Subject: Review of two books by Roger Zelazny THE CHANGING LAND, Ballantine, 1981, #25389, $2.50 Paperback, 245 pages. Avoid this book. It must be a ripoff book intended to generate a quick profit. It sure ain't a serious piece of work. Almost everybody wants to break into the Castle Timeless. It's harder to get into than Studio 54, what with all of the ever-changing magic obstacles surrounding the place (That's where the name of the book comes from). While the man of the house is away, the intruders hope to steal the source of his magic powers. Well, almost all of the intruders. The protagonist Dilvish merely wants to kill Jelerak, Lord of Castle Timeless. And to think Lauren was complaining about his dishes and color TV! THE CHANGING LAND is a flat and uninteresting book. The hideous cover, which shows a man mounted on a fire breathing mechanical horse, surrounded by lots of giant purple hands, properly reveals what's inside. If you insist on reading this book, I predict that there will soon be copies available in the used book section of your local SF store. CHANGELING, Ace, 1980, #10257-3, $2.50 Paperback, 272 pages. This book more than makes up for THE CHANGING LAND. It's really hard to understand how the same author could have written both of them. I rate this book only slightly below the quality of NINE PRINCES IN AMBER, which thoroughly enjoyed. The story is about the conflict between technology and magic. The infant son of the evil Sorcerer Randoval is transported from a place where technology is an ancient legend to an alternate world where magic is the ancient legend. There he is exchanged for the infant son of some sort of engineering-related Captain of Industry type. Years later the son of Lord Randoval is brought back to his native world in order to oppose the evil technology his "half brother" has created. If like me you have avoided buying the large format paperback edition of this book, now is the time to run out and purchase it. Well worth the price of admission, it is marvelously illustrated by Esteban Maroto. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Apr 1981 at 1326-CST From: korner at UTEXAS-11 Subject: Reply to: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #91 Having just finished Dr. Forward's fine book (paperback editions have finally percolated down to Texas) I find I don't know enough about magnetic monopoles. Can someone provide a quick summary of theoretical import and a pointer or two to further reading? Cheers- Kim Korner [ For those of you new to the digest, Kim refers to Dr. Robert L. Forward's book DRAGON'S EGG. Dr. Forward is a fellow reader of this digest, and will also happily answer to the name of Bob. -- Jim ] ------------------------------ PCR@MIT-MC 04/09/81 07:59:01 Re: Information Mechanics File A file with some bits and pieces from/about the book "Information Mechanics" has been put in the file MC:GUEST3;PCR INFO-M. ...phil [ Since this file was rather short, I have taken the liberty of including it in this digest proper. The file follows. -- Jim ] This is a bit of a summary of some ideas from the book "Information Mechanics" by Frederick W. Kantor, published by John Wiley & Sons,in 1977. ********** [From the back cover] ...Section 2 uses a sequence of information bookkeeping theorems to obtain: a set of conditions under which an observer cannot know he is moving, and thus special relativity and a limitation on its domain of applicability; inertia; some properties of representation of information by light, and thus a "cosmological red shift" in a universe with "constant size", and from that "Hubble's constant" H; conditions under which an observer cannot know that his localization has been changed by nearness to mass, and thus curvature of spacetime about mass, gravity, and the weak gravitational "constant" G; detailed formal consideration of the least massive information representation stable when nearly at rest, and thus the electron and postirom, and approximate values for their mass and charge, and for the "fine structure constant"... ...Section 3 discards the original basis in part of electromagnetic theory and nonrelativistic quantum mechanics and proceeds by postulating *only* that *information is conserved, communicable, and finitely accessible.* From this are obtained conceptually and formally: four dimensional space-time, apparent unidirectionality distinctness of time; isotropy and homogeneity of the remaining 3-space; Maxwell's equations in vacuum; and conceptual and formal bases for mass, energy, a quanitized electromagnetic theory, and a relativistic quantum mechanics... ********** [from page 3] By way of getting into the spirit of this approach, consider the following puzzle. In both classical and quantum mechanics, an object's position is described by three real numbers. A real number is one of an infinite number of alternatives, and so represents infinite information. Presumably, when an object is moved from one place to another, its position information goes with it. In quantum mechanics, all detectors have quantum "uncertainty" noise. From communication theory, transporting infinite information in the presence of such noise would require infinite energy. So, if an object's position really required three real numbers to describe it, the object would be immovable. ********** [Much of the book is filled with very formal arguments and disclaimers about "compatibility with prior knowledge". The informal stuff makes an interesting read. ...phil] ------------------------------ Date: 9 Apr 1981 7:55:01 EST (Thursday) From: Ralph Muha Subject: DNA programming The April issue of Scientific American contains an article entitled "The Evolution of the Genetic Code." In it, the authors argue (rather convincingly) that the process of natural selection occurs at the molecular level and the nucleotide sequences of RNA "survived" because they were immune to cleavage caused by water molecules and because of the low error rate of their copying mechanism. There is also some discussion of computer analysis which is being used to search out the "ancient" sequences of nucleotides in modern RNA. On the fictional side of things, a two-part episode of the "Outer Limits" entitled "The Inheritors" dealt with RNA from outer space. Soldiers who receive head wounds while fighting in an unnamed Southeast Asian republic develop "strange mental powers" and begin doing bizarre things like building anti-gravity generators and amassing huge fortunes in the stock market. It turns out that they were all shot with bullets made from a meteorite just chock full of alien RNA! (How's that rate on the old plausibility scale, folks?) ------------------------------ Date: 9 APR 1981 1039-PST From: RODOF at USC-ECL Subject: Unicorn making I'm not sure this is how they did it, but I'd like to contribute this little personal experience. When I was somewhat younger, it was finally decided that I should have braces. Since I wanted the things off before I went to college, the orthodontist agreed to do a somewhat accelerated job, and finish the job in a year, although I was warned that it would hurt more. It did. My teeth were moved by the simple process of pulling or pushing on them until they were in the right place. The orthodontist explained that by exerting a steady force on the tooth in one direction, the jawbone on the leading side dissolved, and bone reformed on the trailing side. Apparently a very natural biological process. I'm not saying that a goat's horn is a tooth, but there's a good chance that the structures are similar enough to work. One horn was probably removed (a common procedure on farms) and the other horn slowly dragged over by some sort of harness. I'd doubt very much that it is two horns grown together, as I believe only the root and a small central core of the horn is alive, and it would be difficult to make them meld. (any of your teeth joined together?) Goat horns do have natural ridges (always reminded me of the blood runnels in a sword) and, from what I've seen of the critter on TV, it was probably filed a bit to shape. Lancelot is awfully cute, but since MY personal image of the Unicorn was always something grand, majestic, and powerfully uncontained, I'll put off my souvenir purchase till the horse version comes along. Rodof ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 11-APR "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #93 *** EOOH *** Date: 11 APR 1981 0923-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #93 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Saturday, 11 Apr 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 93 Today's Topics: SF Events - Science Fiction Reading & Convention Calendar, SF Books - Here's the Plot What's the Title & A for Andromeda & Computers with a Will, SF TV - Harlan Ellison, SF Topics - Extinction of the Dinosaurs, Society - Shuttle & Space Law, Humor - Shuttle ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 Apr 1981 1010-PST From: Rose at OFFICE Subject: Science Fiction Reading Fantasy and Science Fiction Reading: Peter Beagle, Rod Sweigert, Patricia McKilip, and John Stallings. On Saturday the 25th of April these four authors will read from their works at the Prometheus Community Center, corner of Lytton and Florence in Palo Alto. Admission $5. Beer and dancing afterwards. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Apr 1981 at 2358-CST From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 Subject: Title query If the information OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE had to go on is fully reliable, the book is not anything in Lichtenberg (& Lorrah)'s "Zeor" or "Gen/Sime" series, but it certainly has a number of noteworthy elements in common with it. ------------------------------ Date: 10 April 1981 1542-est From: Margolin at MIT-Multics (Barry Margolin) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #92 In reference to the story about the little boy and the floating cube: I don't remember the story's name, but I believe I read it in last years 30th Anniversary F&SF issue, or at least in F&SF somewhere. barmar ------------------------------ Date: 10 April 1981 22:16-EST From: Dale R. Worley Subject: A for Andromeda The following description of \A for Andromeda/ is taken from \The Selfish Gene/ by Richard Dawkins. I have cut out the parts that give away the plot. [BTW, if any of you are interested in evolution and its consequences for social behavior, \The Selfish Gene/ is a must-read. For the rest of you, the first two chapters are must-reads.] \A for Andromeda/ by Fred Hoyle and John Elliot is an exciting story, and, like all good science fiction, it has some interesting scientific points lying behind it. Strangely, the book seems to lack explicit mention of the most important of these underlying points. It is left to the reader's imagination. I hope the authors will not mind if I spell it out here. There is a civilization 200 light years away, in the constellation of Andromeda. They want to spread their culture to distant worlds. How best to do it? Direct travel is out of the question. ... Radio is a better way of communicating with the rest of the universe ... . The trouble with this sort of distance is that you can never hold a conversation. ... ... Since there was no point in waiting for a reply, [the Andromedans] assembled everything they wanted to say into one huge unbroken message, then they broadcast it out into space, over and over again, with a cycle time of several months. ... It consisted of coded instructions for the building and programming of a giant computer. Of course the instructions were in no human language, but almost any code can be broken by a skilled cryptographer, especially if the designers of the code intended it to be easily broken. Picked up by the Jodrell Bank radio telescope, the message was eventually decoded, the computer built, and the program run. ... OPINION: Don't bother. The idea is good, but the implementation in fiction seems wooden to me. BTW, does anyone know where the custom of saying "\mumble/" to italicize "mumble" came from? Dale ------------------------------ Date: 10 April 1981 22:29-EST From: Dale R. Worley Subject: Computer with a will Thinking about \A for Andromeda/ got me thinking about the portrayal of computers with wills in SF. In particular, when computers crop up that have a "will", that is, don't just blindly follow uninteresting programs that are fed in, where do they come from, what do they do, and what happens to them (and us) as a consequence? The examples that come to mind are: The Moon is a Harsh Mistress Origin: spontaneous (not terribly plausible) Does: assists friends in various interesting enterprises A for Andromeda Origin: designed as cultural ambassador by Andromedans, built by humans from radioed specs Does: disseminates originating culture The Forbin Project Origin: master control for nuclear defense system Does: just that, but not quite the way the designers planned When Harley was One Origin: designed as a research project to demonstrate computers with wills Does: exhibits a wide range of human-like emotions in the appropriate contexts Anyone with interesting variations, particularly with uncommon origins or results, please send me or SF-LOVERS a note. Dale ------------------------------ Date: 9 Apr 81 23:52:34-PDT From: mclure at Sri-Unix Subject: Bay Area Harlan fans Ellison is going to be on the VIDEOWEST program on channel 9 Sunday night at 11:30... the announced topic is 'television' or somesuch. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Apr 1981 (Friday) 0752-EDT From: SHRAGE at WHARTON-10 ( Jeffrey Shrager) Subject: T-23 minutes and holding ... arggghhhhhh-- a software error!!! Talk about loss of face. I won't be able to tell anyone that I'm in computers anymore or they'll chastise me for having caused the shuttle failure. Why couldn't it have been a simple hardware failure or operator error -- at least the shuttle isn't going to melt down. [Or is it? -- Maybe it'll freeze up.] Anyone know what an IMU (inertial measuring unit) is for? I expect that it's like those little boxes that can tell you exactly (to the mm.) where you are by "watching the changes in acceleration". If so, why do they have to be realligned at 51 minutes before launch. Is this an effect of the hour shift? (Note that they said 51 minutes at t-9 ... 9+51=60.) Well, back to the TV -- CBS is doing a good job. I'd Rather have Walter though. I hope this thing goes soon -- I'm getting bored. -- Jeff ------------------------------ Date: 10 Apr 1981 1359-EST From: JHENDLER at BBNA Subject: Preventive Maintainence I guess the space shuttle must have a DEC field service contract. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Apr 1981 1151-PST From: Stuart McLure Cracraft Subject: DEC field service Actually the shuttle computers (and the backup one whose software failed) are all IBM. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Apr 1981 2013-PST From: First@SUMEX-AIM Subject: Bug in the Space Shuttle Computers After what happened to the Space Shuttle today, I almost felt ashamed to be a computer scientist--you know, it's like feeling ashamed of being American during Vietnam. Watching the TV news has not been particularly enlightening as to exactly what the problem was. If the problem is something truly as serious as a malfunction in the communications links between the 4 main computers and the backup, how come it was only discovered at T minus 9 minutes? The NASA people claim that the reason was that a set of conditions existed that they had never encountered before! Like what--does T minus 9:00 represent an unexpected condition? I'm confused!! Does anybody out there have any more detailed information about what really went on? (Are there any NASA hackers on the list. One possible explanation: the five computers were built by IBM and the 4 main computers were programmed by IBM ... --Michael P.S. I don't want to offend anybody with that remark about feeling ashamed to be an American during Vietnam. I love America as much as anyone else--it's just an analogy! ------------------------------ Date: 10 Apr 1981 at 1241-PST Subject: Re: Space Law (or the lack thereof) From: knutsen at Sri-Unix Those "space treaties" are like lawyers passing a law that says doctors cann't do surgery unless they give the lawyers 90% of the revenues... a lot of people would die. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Apr 1981 0700-EST From: DAA at MIT-DMS (David A. Adler) Subject: The extinction of the dinosaurs... Anyone who is still interested in the sudden death of the dinosaurs, there is an article in the May issue of SCIENCE 81 David Adler ------------------------------ Date: 10 Apr 1981 16:08 PST Sender: Brodie at PARC-MAXC From: Richard R. Brodie Subject: Calendar of Science Fiction Events Here is the SF-Lovers event calendar. If you have information about any events you would like to see added to the calendar, or are associated in some way with one of the listed events and would like to contribute, please send mail to Brodie at PARC-MAXC. ------------------------------ Calendar of Science Fiction Events As of April 10, 1980 ------------------------------ April 11-12, 1981 (Minnesota) MICROCON 1981. SF/Comics/Games. Mpls. Comic Conventions, Box 3221 Traffic Station, Minneapolis, MN 55403. April 17-19, 1981 (Southern California) EQUICON. Films. Sheraton Plaza La Reina, Los Angeles. The program includes the usual collection of exhibits (including some rarely-seen movies props), art show, masquerade directed by the L.A. Filkharmonic, fashion show, games, films (full program can't be announced until the show, due to advertising restrictions) including "SuperBman: the Other Movie" and "Blooperman: the Outtakes". Also: video room featuring Japanese cartoons, Society for Creative Anachronism display. Cost: $18 till 4/10 ($10 under 12), $25 ($15) door; $10 single day. P.O. Box 23127, Los Angeles, CA 90023. April 18-20, 1981 (Maryland) BALTICON 15. Hunt Valley Inn, Baltimore. GoH: John Varley; AGoH: Darrell Sweet. Cost: $10 adv. BSFS, Inc., Box 686, baltimore, MD 21203. April 25-26, 1981 (Nebraska) ELECTRACON I. GoH: Ed Bryant; FGoH: Suzanne Carnival; AGoH: Dan Patterson. Cost: $7.50; $10 door. Banquet TBA. "Nebraska's first SF con." Box 1052, Kearney, NE 68847. May 8-10, 1981 (Tennessee) KUBLA'S NINTH KHANPHONY. Ken Moore, 647 Devon Drive, Nashville, TN 37204 May 9-10 (Georgia) EMORY-TREK II. Atlanta Star Trek Society, c/o Kenneth Cribbs, 2156 Golden Dawn Drive SW, Atlanta, GA 30311 May 23-34, 1981 (District of Columbia) DISCLAVE. Sheraton National Hotel, Arlington, VA ($38 room). GoH: Isaac Asimov. Cost: $7 till 5/1, $10 after. Art show info: Bob Oliver, 9408 Michael Drive, Clinton MD 20735. June 5-7, 1981 (Arizona) PHRINGECON 2. PO Box 128, Tempe, AZ 85281. June 12-14, 1981 (Wisconsin) X-CON 5. M. P. Inda, 1743 N. Cambridge, Apt. 301, Milwaukee, WI 53202. June 13-14, 1981 (Kansas) COSMOCON II. c/o Charley S. McCue, 34 halsey, Hutchinson, KS 67501. July 2-5, 1981 (Northern California) WESTERCON 34. GoH: C. J. Cherryh; Fan GoH: Grant Canfield. Red Lion Motor Inn, Sacramento, CA; (916) 929-8855; $32 single and double, $8 addl person. Party wing. Cost: $20 till 6/14/81, $25 door. P.O. Box 161719, Sacramento, CA 95816. July 3-5, 1981 (Northern California) PACIFIC ORIGINS. The Seventh Annual national Wargaming Convention. Dunfey Hotel, San Mateo, CA. Fantasy and Science Fiction games, TRAVELLER, DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS, TUNNELS AND TROLLS, RUNEQUEST!, a live FANTASY TRIP dungeon, National Ancients Championship, other miniatures events, over 50 Boardgame events, SCA fighting demo, movies, game design workshops. Pacific, PO Box 5548, San Jose, CA 95150. July 10-12, 1981 (Missouri) ARCHON V. GoH: Tanith Lee; Fan GoH: Joan Hanke Wood; Toastmaster: Charlie Grant; also Joan Hanke Wood, Wilson 'Bob' Tucker, Glen Cook, Ron Chilson, George R. R. Martin, Joe and Gay Haldeman, and Michael Berlyn. Chase-Park Plaza Hotel, St. Louis, MO ($44 single, $52 2/3/4). Soliciting program ideas and/or people who could help carry them out. Also looking for more artist names to add to the mailing list for soliciting contributions to the art show. This was successful at ARCHON IV (over 60% of artists sold works), and they are trying to expand. There will be more art show space and display panels this year. Also in the process of reviewing art show rules and would welcome suggestions. SFL liaison: WMartin at Office-3 (Amy Newell). August 7-10, 1981 (Northern California) MYTHCON XII. Mills College, Oakland, CA. Fantasy. GoHs: Elizabeth M. Pope, Joe R. Christopher. Cost: $10 till 3/1, $15 after. 90 El Camino Real, Berkeley, CA 94705. September 3-7, 1981 (Colorado) DENVENTION TWO. 1981 World Science Fiction Convention. Pro GoH: C.L. Moore, Clifford Simak; Fan GoH: Rusty Hevelin. Denver Hilton. Cost: $35 till spring 1981. P.O. Box 11545, Denver, CO. 80211. (303) 433-9774. November 5-7, 1981 (Southern California) LOSCON '81. Huntington Sheraton, Pasadena. PGoH: William Rotsler. FGoHs: Len & June Moffatt. Cost: $10 till 7/4. LASFS, 11513 Burbank Blvd., North Hollywood, CA 91601. July 2-5, 1982 (Arizona) WESTERCON 35. Adams Hotel, Phoenix ($29 single, $5 ea. addl.) GoH: Gordon R. Dickson. FGoH: Fran Skene. TM: David Gerrold. Cost: $15 till 7/10/81 ($6 supporting). Box 11644, Phoenix, AZ 85064; (602) 249-2616. SFL Liaison: Schauble.Multics at MIT-Multics (Paul Schauble). September 2-6, 1982 (Illinois) CHICON IV. 1982 World Science Fiction Convention. Pro GoH: A. Bertram Chandler; Fan GoH: Lee Hoffman; Artist GoH: Kelly Freas. Hyatt Regency, Chicago, IL. Cost: $30 till 6/30/81; $15 supporting; $7.50 conversion. PO Box A3120, Chicago, IL 60690. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 12-APR "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #94 *** EOOH *** Date: 12 APR 1981 0614-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #94 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Sunday, 12 Apr 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 94 Today's Topics: SF Books - Cube query answered & Computers with a Will, SF Movies - Excaliber, Humor - Gifts from Carrion House, SF Topics - Man-Machine interface & DNA programming & Evolution of Unicorns, Spolier - Cube query answered ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 4/10/81 From: Elaine Harris (c/o ucbvax!eagle!mhtsa!research!xchar at BTL-MH) Subject: A Boy and His Cube The answer to RP@MIT-MC's question is: the title of the story is: John Thomas's Cube the author is:John Leimert John thought of a cube and it appeared in their back yard. After a while John asked his parents if they liked it in their back yard and if it bothered them. Both his parents said yes it did bother them and so John put the thought out of his mind and in a moment it was gone. I saw the story in the book called Omnibus of Science Fiction by Groff Conklin. --Elaine Harris (age 11 1/2) ------------------------------ Date: 11 Apr 1981 1818-PST From: CSD.SPREITZER at SU-SCORE Subject: self-willed machines Piers Anthony has included machines with wills in "Split Infinity", which seems to be the first of a series of books (despite the complete lack of indication on the cover that this book might not be complete in itself -- which angered me, as the conclusion was not very conclusive). Exactly what their origin is and what they're doing has not been elaborated on in this book, but I suspect he may make more hay of it in later installments. S'mike ------------------------------ Date: 11 APR 1981 0237-PST From: RODOF at USC-ECL Subject: Review of "Excaliber" Mini Review: Ha ha ha ha what a piece of crap... Long Review: Beautifully photographed. Having mentioned the good points, let's now go on to the bad. I charged out enthusiastically to see this film, fearing the worst yet hoping for the best -- and found my fears fulfilled. I have no idea what the movie was intended to be, but the audience I was with decided early on that the film was supposed to be comedy and laughed uproariously throughout, especially during the more dramatic moments, which were curiously flat, almost as though on purpose. Merlin, especially, was singularly unprepossessing, at times almost providing comedic relief. And the bloody knights NEVER took their armor off. EVER! Sir Percivial, especially, appears to have worn his nonstop throughout the ten years of Mordred's growth to manhood. And the few times they DO shed their ferric exoskeleton, they look SO frail and fragile... The fight scenes were reasonably good, and, as I say, the cinematograpy was excellent, but the plot was thin and choppy, the acting boring, and all the characters extremely uninteresting. And I could have forgiven many things, but I could not forgive the sight of Excaliber, thrust into the stone, being bumped and jostled and wobbling about as though made of rubber. See it if you must, to satisfy your curiosity, but wait till it comes to a cheapie theater. By no means is it worth five bucks. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Apr 1981 2318-PST From: Daul at OFFICE Subject: More (the last of) gifts from Carrion House #56 MATCHED BLUE WHALES We can only offer this one pair - the Ultimate Gift - to the first lucky buyer. Our Matched Blue Whales, Ed and Marjorie, have been specially trained by our resident whale-trainer, Gepetto, who assures us they are tame enough to hand feed. As an additional bonus to the lucky owner, we include a unit that attaches easily (complete instructions included) on the back of Ed and Marjorie to provide AM and FM reception within the 200 mile limit. Easily wired for stereo at a small additional cost. Total package: $5,000.00 (includes one month plankton supply. Additional refills extra). #02 THE GASTRO/NOMEAT This multi-purpose kitchen chainsaw, lathe, dark room and log roller makes a meal in minutes as it slices, buffs, sands and grinds your vegetables to a patina you never thought possible. Then it develops an entire meal while rolling papers for your barbecue. No kitchen can be called complete without this item at the cook's disposal. Total Cost: $400.22 or $14.95 for a limited time only with the attached coupon. FROM CARRION HOUSE'S WORLD OF GIFTS ------------------------------ kwh@MIT-AI 04/11/81 20:12:26 Is anyone familiar with UCLA's Brain Computer Interface project? Particularly, goals, methods, results. [Hmmmm, is there ever anything else?] Are there any published reports or papers that I could look up? It definitely sounds interesting. Thanks, Ken Haase ------------------------------ Date: 10 April 1981 16:52 cst From: VaughanW at HI-Multics (Bill Vaughan) Subject: DNA subroutines Sender: VaughanW.REFLECS at HI-Multics In last week's SCIENCE is an interesting report on the genetic structure of higher animals. The genes of higher animals (meaning everything with nucleated cells) is different from that of bacteria. It seems that genes in nucleated cells are fragmented; interspersed with DNA that does not code for anything. The authors speculate (with some cause) that each fragment codes for a functional sub-unit of the protein specified by the gene. Thus one could imagine a gene as consisting of a number of open subroutines (subrout-genes?). It may be that in discovering the encoding of amino acids into the codons of nucleic acid, all the biologists have done is deciphered the microcode of the cell. Now, it would appear, the next higher level language must be investigated. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Apr 1981 1539-PST From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE Subject: making unicorns You \can/ make a unicorn by removing one horn and transplanting the other to the center of the forehead; this has been done before. I don't know whether this is how Lancelot got to be a unicorn or not. His owners now claim otherwise (I may have been wrong in saying that they didn't before); they say that he is a true mutation and will breed true. --cat ------------------------------ Date: 10 April 1981 04:31-EST From: Neal Feinberg Subject: The Evolution of Unicorns Howdy! I would be very interested in the address of these people. --Chiron ------------------------------ Date: 10 Apr 1981 (Friday) 1801-EDT From: SHRAGE at WHARTON-10 ( Jeffrey Shrager) Subject: Propagation of the Unicorn: \ \\ \\ /\ \ \/!!!/ / -- / / o > / / / / ! //==== ======= \\ !o --/ \-------/ \\\ !!! --/-/ \ ! / \\\\\ !!! \ !! !!! /// ---\ / \ ! !!/// / \! / \ / === ###########/ /! / -------\ /#################### / / \ / ---- \ / \ ! / / / \ \ ! / / / \\ ! ! / / \ \ !! // ! !! / ! / ! / ! [Done by Nick Lombardo] ------------------------------ JPM@MIT-AI 04/11/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last message in this digest. It refers to the Cube story query answered at the beginning of the digest in more detail. People who have not read this story may not wish to read any further. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Apr 1981 1259-EST From: MLEASE at BBNC (Michael V. Lease) Subject: The cube story... The story about the little boy and the cube is in a rather large anthology edited by Groff Conklin, published sometime in the 50's or 60's (sorry I can't be more specific; it's in my archives in Wisconsin and hard to get at from Boston). I believe the name of the story is simply "The Cube", but I'm not sure; and I have no idea who the author is. (SPOILER) Briefly, the story runs as follows: Little boy finds cube in backyard before breakfast, tells parents, parents call authorities, scientists, etc.; utter bafflement sets in as cube is determined to be unmovable by any means (including digging a hole under it); someone comes up with a "Johanssen Block" (a perfectly formed metal cube) and sticks it to the side of the mysterious cube and finds that air pressure will hold the cubes together; all are amazed, but uncertain what it all means; boy wishes the cube would go away; CUBE GOES AWAY!!!. The aftermath is that a psychiatrist examines the boy and finds that he didn't want to go to school that day (a test he wasn't ready for(?)) and thought that if he found this cube, etc., everyone would drop everything else (incl. school). It seems that the boy had this latent ability to project his imagination into reality. Story ends. Cheers, Mike Lease ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 13-APR "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #95 *** EOOH *** Date: 13 APR 1981 0625-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #95 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Monday, 13 Apr 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 95 Today's Topics: SF Books - A for Andromeda, SF Movies - Excalibur, SF Topics - Evolution of Unicorns & Hard SF & Evolution of Flight, Society - Space Law ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MINSKY@MIT-AI 04/12/81 03:42:31 Object to review of A for Andromeda. I think it's a must, because details of how the transmitted program "takes over" is worked out ingeniously and not entirely obviously. Not reading a book like that because the prose is "wooden" is bowing entirely to culturally transient peer pressure. ------------------------------ AUTHOR@MIT-MC 04/12/81 10:46:47 I have just seen (yesterday) Excalibur, and I wish to defend it against some of the attacks I have seen in print. First off, the movie is a FANTASY! Therefore there was no real effort to maintain historical accuracy -- the armor used is basically 16th C italian and spanish and has no basis in Arthurian England. Secondly, Merlin IS for comic relief; in my opinion he (along with the sword) holds the movie together. Third, the film is an EPIC fantasy; John Boorman (Deliverance) who produced and directed it somehow managed to include nearly the whole Arthurian legend, including grail, Lancelot, Arthur's history, in a movie that very well could have been six hours long -- hence claims of choppiness are reasonable, but the causes are also reasonable. [The film has a great deal in common with Star Wars: Lancelot's battle with himself and Luke's episode in the tree; Leia Organa and Morgana might be a coincidental name choice on the part of George Lucas, but I doubt it. There are other parallels] Lastly: The charge that the movie has no point. Very well -- it has no point: dig up whoever is responsible for the Arthurian legends in the first place and then complain! In summation: I am not a rabid fan, there are problems with the movie (like the blood that never dries and is the wrong color). But the film makes an honest attempt to make the Arthurian legend entertaining, and (uncharacteristically for Hollywood) pulls no punches in doing so -- if two people are making love, well then, by golly, you see it; if someone loses an arm, blood spurts, etc. Not only that, but it's roaring great fun to watch. -- Greg ------------------------------ Date: 12 Apr 1981 14:10 PST From: Hamilton.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: ExcaliBUR not Excaliber Sorry to be picky, but I was grossed out enough by seeing this misspelling throughout the LA Herald-Examiner's movie calendar. Now to see it in SF-Lovers... [Middle English Excalibur, from Old French Escalibor, for Medieval Latin Caliburnus, from Welsh Caledvwlch, from Celtic kaleto- (unattested), hard.] [Am. Heritage Dic.] Sigh, --Bruce ------------------------------ Date: 12 Apr 1981 1137-PST From: Jim McGrath Subject: Excalibur By Dan Yakir (c) 1981 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service) NEW YORK - No myth has been more influential than that of King Arthur, the knights of the Round Table, and Merlin, the magician, contends John Boorman, the 47-year-old British filmmaker who directed ''Excalibur.'' ''The legend,'' he says, ''is about the passing of the old gods, and the coming of age of man, of rationality, of laws - of man controlling his affairs. The price he pays for this is the loss of harmony with nature, with the universe, which includes magical forces. The magic passes into our dreams and is lost - and we all feel nostalgic about what was lost in the human past. The only way to regain it is some form of transcendence, which the quest for the Grail represents: It's a quest for a spiritual solution.'' The Arthurian myths incorporate the medieval notion of man as powerless, roaming forever in the dark forest of his existence. This mystery, combined with a vision of the natural world, which is ugly and dangerous as well as beautiful and haunting, permeates Boorman's work. It is evident in his greatest hit ''Deliverance,'' where a group of men have to face forces with which they have lost touch (by way of a canoe trip down a wild river) no less than in ''Zardoz,'' a commercial flop that used the format of a futuristic fantasy to delineate civilization and the primal violence and lust that demand expression. ''Myth is a hidden truth that can only be revealed dramatically or poetically - and that's what storytelling is all about,'' Boorman says. ''It is the retelling of certain basic stories which in some inexplicable way engage the human imagination. Jung (the renowned psychologist) would say that the great myths of the world represent very powerful early moments in human history that have been sealed into the unconscious - which is why we become excited when a story reflects these events.'' The dire consequences of man's alienation from the world that surrounds him, according to Boorman, leads to ''neurosis, which is incredibly dangerous. The instinct to fish, ride a horse, even hunt are all based on this need to make contact with. It's a measure of our desperation that we can only make this contact through killing an animal.'' It is precisely this alienation that is responsible for the recent surge of interest in mythical subjects. ''Excalibur'' is soon to be followed by George Romero's ''Nightriders,'' a modern interpretation of the Arthurian legend in a contemporary setting. Other new films on mythical subjects include ''Dragonslayer,'' ''Clash of the Titans,'' ''Caveman,'' ''Quest for Fire,'' and ''Raiders of the Lost Ark,'' the new Steven Spielberg film, to mention just a few. These pictures range in setting from prehistoric times to the middle ages. ''At a time when there's a great deal of confusion in the world, perhaps there's an instinctive need to look back and rediscover an identity,'' Boorman speculates. Perhaps, this can also account for the enormous popularity of ''Star Wars,'' which, he says, ''was drawn from the Arthurian legend.'' Although he liked the movie, he maintains that ''people who imitate always copy the externals, not what's essential.'' Still, it is the success of this movie that finally enabled Boorman to make ''Excalibur,'' thereby resolving a passion - indeed, an obsession - that wouldn't go away for more than two full decades. ''The legend has always been exciting to me,'' he said. ''As a child, I read Malory's 'Le Mort D' Arthur' and I kept touching it at different points over the years. I read T.S. Elliott's 'The Wasteland,' which is his version of the legend - and was thrilled. I also read Jessie L. Weston's 'The Grail - From Ritual to Romance' and John Cowper's 'Powys' Glastonbury Romance,' which is also about the Grail. At one point in the early '60s, I made a film for the BBC called 'The Quarry.' The protagonist was called Arthur King....'' In 1969, United Artists turned down his proposal for a film about Merlin and, instead, suggested that he direct ''Lord of the Rings.'' Since he considered Tolkien's story as drawn from the Arthurian legend, he wrote the script with his ''Excalibur'' collaborator, Rospo Pallenberg, only to see the project shelved. It was too expensive. In 1975, another effort on his part to do a different script on the subject for Warner Brothers fell through. ''They felt there was perhaps not enough of a market for it,'' he says. Two years ago, however, a phone call from Orion Pictures gave him the go ahead, because ''After 'Star Wars' there seemed to be an appetite for fantasy.'' ''I tried to give the picture a reality out of which the magic and the fantasy could grow,'' the director notes. ''I think it's quite successful in that you don't feel a dichotomy between the two. People may feel it's too remote from today to really engage them, but to me this is precisely what's interesting - you get a completely different perspective; you enter another world. I think even when a film deals with an internal world in a contemporary setting, it still has to be otherworldly.'' Boorman admits that for an audience to deal with such subjects as matricide, patricide and incest, which ''Excalibur'' delineates, a contemporary setting might prove too shocking. Similarly, he says, ''The myth seems to advocate a hierarchical system: Most people cannot deal with democracy. This is not what I personally happen to believe. I love choice, but people do yearn for a benevolent figure to take care of them.'' Still, when pressed about political implications, the filmmaker insists that ''what people were interested in mostly in the Middle Ages in this myth was the relationship between the spiritual and the material.'' Also, he adds, ''this wasn't my consideration when I approached the material; what excites me is an image - the sword coming out of the lake, for example - not the message.'' ''Excalibur,'' like Boorman's other films, seems to explore a masculine - indeed, macho - world where women are either excluded (as in ''Deliverence'' and ''Hell in the Pacific'') or play the role of the seductress who destroys men (as in ''Point Blank'' and ''Excalibur''). Boorman seems amused: ''My whole life I've been surrounded by women - I have two sisters but no brothers; five aunts but no uncles; three daughters and one son. I've lived in a female world, and perhaps film is a way of escaping it. But I never enjoy the company of men without women. I find it very unbalanced.'' In his search for a balanced existence, Boorman lives with his family in a 200-year-old house near Dublin, Ireland. There, in the foothills of the Wicklow Mountains, he has a chance to ride his horses and feel in touch with his environment. But the bug of the movies, which had bitten him as a child, never manages to stay away for long. Two of his children, Charley, 14, and Katrina, 20, have prominent roles in ''Excalibur.'' Like their father, they, too, might choose one day to eliminate the boundary between myth and reality. ------------------------------ Date: 12 APR 1981 2050-EST From: ABRAX at MIT-AI (Jeff Shrager) Subject: Unicorn picture \ \\ \\ /\ \ \/!!!/ / -- / / o > / / / / ! //==== ======= \\ !o --/ \-------/ \\\ !!! --/-/ \ ! / \\\\\ !!! \ !! !!! /// ---\ / \ ! !!/// / \! / \ / === ###########/ /! / -------\ /#################### / / \ / ---- \ / \ ! / / / \ \ ! / / / \\ ! ! / / \ \ !! // ! !! / ! / ! / ! [ The previous digest had another version of this picture that accidently ended going "through the washer." Apoligies are due to all concerned. - Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 12 APR 1981 1327-EST From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: ketchup How to avoid obsolescence in hard SF: mostly you can't, but a good start would be to assume that nothing is impossible and make your best guess about relative improbabilities. Another pointer would be to work with something that isn't on the cutting edge of development of theoretical science---Clement's new book, which depends mostly on well-understood chemistry, is unlikely to be obsoleted, it just may not happen. Luminiferous ether and Darwin: I don't think this is a valid comparison. Darwin proposed a \process/ by which species changes might occur; the proponents of the ether suggested a \substance/ to cover their inadequate understanding of physics as we now know it. Disproving the existence of ether was done by a simple and elegant experiment which settled the matter; disproving evolution would be much more difficult since it has already been demonstrated that species evolve (the standard reference for this is English moths which were white for camouflage before the industrial revolution blackened English skies and surfaces, are now black (or dark brown) for the same reason). Also, the alternative offered to Darwin et al. is a great deal more ridiculous than the theory of the ether. \/ for italics: I developed this on my own a little over a year ago in response to the inadequacy of unprocessed printouts compared with typesetting, which I was then doing for Noreascon; I suspect other people had similar ideas. space treaties: knutsen's analogy is inaccurate. The question is whether individuals should be allowed to take for their own profit the most valuable portion of what has been defined as common property simply because they can get to it first. I'm not happy about some of the alternatives currently offered, given other 3rd World nonsense like the proposed licensing of journalists (this disease has made it as far as Puerto Rico, which progress I find appalling), but "private enterprise" has no business squawking about something for which it will in any case be heavily dependent on our government (have you seen any businesses moving to build their own shuttle---or even to buy shares in support of the current program rather than letting the military pay the piper and call the tune? ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 14-APR "JPM at MIT-ML" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #96 *** EOOH *** Date: 14 APR 1981 0832-EST From: JPM at MIT-ML Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #96 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Tuesday, 14 Apr 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 96 Today's Topics: SF Events - BaltiCon Ride Request, SF Books - Computers with Wills (The Dragon Lensman and Rendezvous on a Lost World) & Split Infinity & The Sword of Shannara & Sterility and Cloning (Imperial Earth), SF Movies - Excalibur, SF TV - Fugitive from the Empire, SF Radio - Star Wars tapes, SF Topics - Man-Machine interface, Society - Shuttle & Space Law, Spoiler - Star Wars and Excalibur ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 Apr 1981 0342-EST From: J. Spencer Love Subject: BaltiCon ride request Anyone out there driving from the Boston area to BaltiCon? I'm looking for a ride, leaving Friday (hopefully morning) and coming back Sunday or Monday. I can drive and will share expenses. Please reply to JSL at MIT-Multics. On a related note, there doesn't seem to be too much ride-requesting activity, but I suspect that there are plenty of potential riders out there. Is there anything like a convention ride matchmaking service on the net? If not, and you are interested, drop me a line and I will consider starting one. -- Spencer ------------------------------ Date: 13 Apr 1981 1448-PST From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE Subject: Re: computers with wills More books with computers with wills: David Kyle's The Dragon Lensman, in which Worsel the Velantian encounters a half planetful of computers that have achieved autonomy and definitely some sort of consciousness and will. Also A.Bertram Chandler's book "Rendezvous on a Lost World" features a vast machine intelligence which runs a planet. It creates some androids to be temporary companions to the spacemen; these androids turn out to have wills of their own, too. --cat ------------------------------ Date: 13 Apr 1981 1548-PST From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE Subject: subspecies, mini-reviews The definition of species is that two creatures are of the same species if they can have fertile offspring. Thus a horse and a donkey are of the same genus but different species because mules are sterile. The well-known example of the moths in London turning from white to black is a case of natural selection effecting the evolution of a subspecies, not a species. As I said before, Darwin did a terrific job documenting this sort of thing (and of course his explanation -- natural selection -- is brilliant). The problem is, how do you get new species? How can the descendents of a creature with 38 chromosomes have 44 chromosomes? (With two sexes, this seems an even more difficult problem). This problem has puzzled our biochemists for many decades. The state-of-the-art version of the theory is essentially "The Great Synthesis" from the 1930's, when the paleontologists got together with population biologists and geneticists. For instance, geneticists have found that "species" as above is not well defined! There exists a population of lizards living along a big mountain area containing (among others) three groups which I will call A, B, and C. It turns out that A can have fertile offspring with B, as can B with C, but A can't with C. (And I don't mean that A and C are males while B's are females). But I think the chromosome problem is still a big mystery. Split Infinity: started well, but the last third didn't work for me. Anthony sets up a big dilemma for his protagonist which I think is contrived and lacks force. The world itself is neat and I'd like to see more of it before the series turns into weird mush (as do almost all of Anthony's series, Xanth being an exception). The Sword of Shannara (since I still see it in stores, much to my amazement). What are the three major elements of a novel? Style, character, and plot. The style of the book is terrible. The author, lawyer Terry Brooks, argues his description instead of showing it. Instead of the light glinting off the shield blinding X, Brooks has the shield situated at such an angle so as to reflect the sun's rays directly into X's face, causing his vision to be somewhat incapacitated. The characters in the book are almost all flat stereotypes. The most incredible blunder, however, is that Brooks mixes up the personalities of Shea (the protagonist) and his brother, realizes his mistake around page 170, and switches them back! So much for style and character. The plot, in contrast, is very good. It ought to be, for it is the plot of Lord of the Rings! Try this: the Evil One is gaining strength, preparing to conquer the world, so a fellowship consisting of a dwarf, two warriors, a couple of elves, a wizard, and two ordinary people go on a quest to find and use the Sword of Shannara, the only weapon that can stop the Evil One....When the wizard is at the last moment dragged down to fall into a fire by the evil opponent he has just felled (allowing the others to escape), it really is too much to be believed. The funny thing is that in an interview about the book, the Del Rays say that it needed a lot of rewriting because the first version Brooks sent them was too "imitative" of Tolkien. I wonder what Brooks did send them at first -- a copy of Lord of the Rings? --cat ------------------------------ Date: 10 Apr 1981 at 0005-CST From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 Subject: CLARKE, CLONES, & CHROMOSOMES ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ CLARKE, CLONES, & CHROMOSOMES ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Ever since I read IMPERIAL EARTH, I've been bothered by something which someone in the recent genetics discussion might clear up. It was the continuation of the original man's induced sterility in his/their clones. One wouldn't expect Clarke to err, especially when the whole story revolves around that sterility, but did he? Or did I misread something? ------------------------------ Date: 13 Apr 1981 12:29:37-PST From: ARPAVAX.arnold at Berkeley Subject: Excalibur RATING: on a 1-10 scale, about a 4.5 to 5 I went with a person who had read neither Le Morte D'Arthur or One and Future King, and therefore didn't know the Arthurian legends. He enjoyed it quite a bit. He found the film entertaining and interesting. I, however, couldn't take quite a bit of it. The characterization of Merlin was quite good. Why shouldn't a wizard have a sense of humor? But, though several of the changes from the original legend were either irrelevant or an improvement upon the original (I like the scene where Arthur pulls out the sword and chases after Merlin), several were so gross that I had to laugh. Perceval finds the grail? He brings it back to Arthur? Merlin escapes from the cave and helps Arthur? Come on! Either my memory has fried because of excessive use of drugs, or they didn't read (or didn't care about) the original very much. And where does Lancelot get off without kidnapping Guenivere? I mean, we've missed the greatest emotional conflict the coming of the age of reason has passed to us in legend; that of Arthur keeping his laws to the point of executing his own queen while he secretly hopes that Lancelot will save her, knowing it will destroy his kingdom. Ken P.S. A Micro Review: The credits at the end say (and I quote letter for letter here): Adapated from Le Morte Darthur P.P.S. The extreme to which they go not to remove armor is most poignantly foreshadowed by the rape/seduction of Igraine by Uther which is accomplished in flagrante ferrus, fully suited. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Apr 1981 0942-MST From: Spencer W. Thomas Subject: Derivation of grail Just thought somebody might be interested - The word 'grail' derives from the French 'sang real' (real blood), as the grail was thought to be a chalice containing the blood of Christ. As the centuries passed, the phrase was 'Anglicized' by people having no realization of the meaning. (The French pronounciation would be SONG RAY-ALL approximately, with a liason between the G and the R, making it easy to drop the SON on the front, leaving GRAY-ALL which is easily degraded to grail.) -S ------------------------------ Date: 13 Apr 1981 at 0947-CST From: clyde at UTEXAS-11 Subject: Re: Excalibur Personally, I think Monty Python has made the best version of the Arthurian legend.....at least the one that makes the most sense! You know, those knights \were/ really pretty authtentically clumsy with those greatswords and they bled \very/ well when chopped up. Not only that, but one \does/ have to wonder if strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is really a basis for a government... ------------------------------ Date: 13 Apr 1981 1024-PST (Monday) From: Mike at UCLA-SECURITY (Michael Urban) Subject: S&S on TV You could tell how the NBC creative people were thinking by watching the teaser for "Fugitive from the Empire" Sunday night. "This summer, five motion pictures will be about swords, and sorcery. This is the first." Well, maybe if you don't count Excalibur, which beat it by two days. But it'll be pretty mean pickings if this is the best. I ended up giving up after the first hour or so. While the concept wasn't too bad (S&S doesn't rely very much on originality of plot or setting in the best of cases), the execution was pretty crummy, even by TV standards. None of the performers had any idea of what they were doing, or why, or even whether they were playing for laughs or not. The plot exposition seemed rushed, while "action" scenes were given too much play (do I hear echos of Bakshi's LotR?). And while the setting was determinedly non-specific, the dialogue was still disquietingly 20th-century contemporary. Electronic music, too. I'm not arguing for cliche exactly, but if you're going to pioneer a genre in television, you should start by observing the conventions of that genre. It's a pilot for a series called "The Archer", by the way. Mike ------------------------------ Date: 13 Apr 1981 17:39:07 EST (Monday) From: Morris Keesan Subject: Star Wars radio tapes I've been taping the Star Wars radio show off the air. Unfortunately, I either missed or erased episode 2. Has anyone else been taping who can make a copy of that episode for me? (preferably reel-to-reel). Please reply to mkeesan@bbn-unix. P.S. Please, no requests for copies from me. I have no facilities for making copies of tapes. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Apr 1981 1135-PST (Monday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: Brain Computer Interface Project I suggest that persons interested in the UCLA Brain Computer Interface Project contact the head of the project, Dr. Vidal, directly. He is available via the net as "Vidal@UCLA-SECURITY" -- I don't know how often he reads his mail. His lab is two doors down from the UCLA-ATS/UCLA-SECURITY machine room. The basic work there involves complex interpretation of very basic EEG patterns by computer. At one time, he had this demo where a person would direct a graphic "mouse" through a CRT maze purely with thought. This was done by first doing a training session where you would concentrate on UP when the CRT flashed, then DOWN, etc. Then you would concentrate on the direction you wanted the mouse to go, and when the screen flashed again, the system would do a pattern recognition on the appropriate direction. Considering the amount of noise in an EEG, I was always somewhat impressed by this demo. --Lauren-- ------------------------------ Date: 13 April 1981 0831-EST From: Steve Lammert at CMU-10A Subject: Shuttle computers As I understand it, four of the computers in the shuttle are IBM equipment with identical software; the fifth computer is made by a subsidiary of Rockwell, and has independently-written software (same specs as the IBM program). The fifth machine is intended as an arbitrator, in case of a "split decision" on any task being run; essentially we have a voted multi-processor, with (more or less) a controlling processor. The non-IBM machine is supposed to be able to remove any of the others from the voting process if it decides that the other machine has been overly flaky. --steve ------------------------------ Date: 13 April 1981 12:00 est From: JRDavis.LOGO at MIT-Multics Subject: space treaties Chip Hitchcock is right about one thing: space industrialization will benefit Big Businesses, but is being payed for by taxes. At least initialy it will also provide a lot of military 'service', but all that money goes back to business, too. This is the usual historic pattern in the U.S. - the taxpayers pay for it, the corporations benefit by it. It is happening now in the synthetic fuel and nuclear power industries. I would complain more about space, but i care more about just getting someone out there than I care who makes UnWorldly profits. ------------------------------ JPM@MIT-AI 04/14/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last message in this digest. It refers in passing to the Star Wars universe, although it actually is a comment on the movie Excalibur. People who are not familar with the Star Wars universe may not wish to read any further. ------------------------------ Date: 13 APR 1981 1101-EST From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Organa/Morgana??? I find this as hard to swallow as the "inside revelation" concerning STAR WARS which recently appeared here (i.e., that Leia and Luke are half siblings, etc.). The two do fit together, since Morgana is supposed to have been Arthur's half sister, but I find it implausible that this is actually what Lucas had in mind, considering that Arthur and Morgana were bitter enemies until Arthur's [death]. Morgana is usually portrayed as chaotic rather than simply evil (Andre Norton (in MERLIN'S MIRROR) also calls her a slut, but I don't recall this from any of the other versions I've skimmed), which also seems far from a reasonable parallel. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 15-APR "MDP at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #97 *** EOOH *** Date: 15 APR 1981 0712-EST From: MDP at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #97 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Wednesday, 15 Apr 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 97 Today's Topics: SF Books - Hugo nominations & Harlan's world & Cyber-S/F project & Clarke's chromosomes, Society - Chromosome speculation & Scientific Creationism & Space treaties, SF Movies - Excalibur ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 15 Apr 1981 00:00:00-PST From: The Moderator Subject: Hugo nominations NOVEL Beyond the Blue Event Horizon Frederik Pohl Lord Valentine's Castle Robert Silverberg The Ringworld Engineers Larry Niven The Snow Queen Joan D. Vinge Wizard John Varley NOVELLA All the Lies That Are My Life (F&SF Nov 80) Harlan Ellison The Brave Little Toaster (F&SF 8-80) Thomas M. Disch Lost Dorsai (Destinies Feb-Mar 80) Gordon R. Dickson Night Flyers (Analog 4-80/Dell) George R. R. Martin One Wing (Analog 1&2-80) George R. R. Martin & Lisa Tuttle NOVELETTE The Autopsy (F&SF 12-80) Michael Shea Beatnik Bayou (New Voices III) John Varley Cloak and Staff (Analog 8-80) Gordon R. Dickson The Lordly Ones (F&SF 3-80) Keith Roberts Savage Planet (Analog 2-80) Barry Longyear The Ugly Chickens (Universe 10) Howard Waldrop SHORT STORY Cold Hands (IASFM 6-80) Jeff Duntemann Grotto of the Dancing Deer (Analog 4-80) Clifford D. Simak Guardian (IASFM 9-80) Jeff Duntemann Our Lady of the Sauropods (Omni 9-80) Robert Silverberg Spidersong (F&SF 9-80) Susan C. Petrey NON-FICTION Cosmos Carl Sagan Di Fate's Catalog of Science Fiction Hardware Vincent diFate & Ian Summers Dreammakers Charles Platt In Joy Still Felt Isaac Asimov Warhoon 28 edited by Richard Bergeron PROFESSIONAL EDITOR James P. Baen Ace Books/Destinies Terry Carr Universe Ed Ferman F&SF Stanley Schmidt Analog George Scithers Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine PROFESSIONAL ARTIST Vincent diFate Stephen Fabian Paul Lehr Don Maitz Michael Whelan FANZINE File 770 ed Mike Glyer Locus ed Charles N. Brown Science Fiction Chronicles ed Andrew Porter Science Fiction Review ed Richard E. Geis Starship ed Andrew Porter FAN WRITER Richard E. Geis Mike Glyer Arthur Hlavaty Dave Langford Susan Wood FAN ARTIST Alexis Gilliland Joan Hanke Woods Victoria Poyser Bill Rotsler Stu Shiffman DRAMATIC PRESENTATION Cosmos (KCET, PBS) The Empire Strikes Back (Lucasfilms) Flash Gordon (Famous Films) The Lathe of Heaven (WNET, PBS) The Martian Chronicles (NBC) THE JOHN W. CAMPBELL AWARD Year of eligibility Kevin Christensen (in Destinies) first Diane Duane (The Door into Fire) 2nd & final Robert L. Forward (Dragon's Egg/Feb 79 Omni) 2nd & final Susan C. Petrey (in F&SF) 2nd & final Robert Stallman (The Orphan/The Captive) first Somtow Suchariktul (in IASFM) 2nd & final ------------------------------ Date: 14 April 1981 10:12 cst From: VaughanW at HI-Multics (Bill Vaughan) Subject: harlan's world Sender: VaughanW.REFLECS at HI-Multics a few years ago there was a spate of stories written by different authors, all set on the same world which had been collectively designed. The project had been instigated by Harlan Ellison and the world, though having a real name (which I have forgotten) was often referred to outside of the stories as Harlan's World. It was populated by gasbags a la Varley's Titan and by a race of animals called Fuxes - presumably for their resemblance to foxes and for an allusion to their most common activity. eventually (said the hype) the stories would be collected and published in one great humongous book. Anyone know what happened to it? ------------------------------ Date: 12 Apr 1981 at 2335-CST From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ C Y B E R - S / F P R O J E C T ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ As mentioned earlier on SF-L, I am spearheading a project analysing the occurrence of 'cybernetic' devices in S/F books. There have been 2 tomes published on the subject (by lit'ry types), neither of which is adequate. With the resources represented by the readership of SF-LOVERS, a \truly definitive/ study should be possible! !! !!! (I-know-I-know-I-KNOW! ...'Cybernetic(s)' is being used atrociously, but it comes from the title of Warrick's book THE CYBERNETIC IMAGI- NATION IN SCIENCE FICTION, whose inadequacies sparked off the project to begin with. I'm using it simply as a rough cover-term for computers-&-robots-&-cyborgs-&-such. Don't like it much, but the alternative seems to be some misleading acronym like CARACAS. So it'll have to do until something better comes along.) At this stage in the project we are working on answers to the question-- What types of 'cybernetic' devices ARE there in S/F? The full range of TYPES is too extensive to dump on the net all at once, so we're starting out with the simplest, robots. We've come up with 8 or 9, primarily distinguished according to shape. (Later on we'll take up "computers-&-cyborgs-&-such".) The ROBOT TYPES list follows, including codes for ready reference, plus examples to illustrate the range possible within the TYPES. Rather than repeat the full code every time, the examples are prefaced with just the part of the code that pertains to sentience. These examples are just that-- examples to illustrate the \range/ of the TYPE. There are a lot more examples possible, but these were what seemed likely to be the most familiar examples for a given TYPE. For the purpose of illustration, we have not hesitated to draw from other media even tho our focus is on books. And tho 'cybernetic' devices are pretty rare in fantasy, we have included them for the sake of completeness. R O B O T S I N S / F Ranges of Types to be Accounted For: codes (begin with + for sentient, - for non-sentient, ? for unclear) | V RO:hum HUMANOID DESIGN + _C-3P0 RO:sem FAIRLY NON-HUMANOID IN DESIGN + _R2-D2 + _Abalamahalamantandra in Foster's THE END OF THE MATTER RO:fnc FUNCTIONAL IN DESIGN + _Berserkers & Bolos - _"robo-harvesters" in Norton's DARK PIPER - _automated taxis in Mack Reynolds' future universe + _House, Kitchen, etc., in Simak's WEREWOLF PRINCIPLE RO:qsi QUASI-PERIPHERALS (mobile, partly/fully computer-controlled) ? _the alien vessels' mobile units in Tilley's FADE-OUT and in Saberhagen's SPECIMENS - _the floating monitors in Brunner's A PLANET OF YOUR OWN RO:anm ANIMAL SHAPE or FUNCTIONING ANIMAL REPLICAS + _the horse in Stasheff's WARLOCK IN SPITE OF HIMSELF + _"rogs" (robot dogs) in High's INVADER ON MY BACK RO:xcy EX-CYBORG + _the Cybermen in Dr Who + _the Tin Woodman of Oz (also +RO:mgc and +RO:hum) RO:nat NATURAL "ROBOTS" (i.e., robot-like life-forms) + _invading alien vermin in High's NO TRUCE WITH TERRA RO:mgc MAGICAL 'ROBOTS' + _TIC-TOC of Oz (also +RO:hum) UTILIZING DISEMBODIED BRAIN . . . under CYBORGS (CY:brn) ........................ At this point, we are NOT looking for additional examples, per se! What we're concerned with is the TYPE schema. * * * ARE THERE ANY TYPES, HOWEVER RARE, WE HAVE MISSED? * * * If so, let me know, or, if your comment might be of general interest, post it on SF-LOVERS. Later, when we have the TYPES schema fully worked out, we will list the titles we have accumulated and ask for a) any we overlooked, and b) information on specific books. For now, tho, please check us out on the ROBOT TYPES schema. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Apr 1981 1543-EST From: Dan Tappan Subject: Clarke's chromosones At the end of my copy of IMPERIAL EARTH, Clarke brings up that point. He says he was aware of the problem, but hoped that by being vauge he could get away from it, finally he says (I quote): "Meanwhile for those biologists who refuse to be placated, I can only fall back on what is know in the trade as Bradbury's Defense, viz: One dreaful boy ran up to me and said: `That book of yours, the Martian Chronicles?' `Yes,' I said. `On page 92 where you have the moons of Mars rising in the east?' `Yeah,' I said. `Nah,' he said. So I hit him." ------------------------------ Date: 14 Apr 1981 1014-PST From: Moock at SUMEX-AIM Subject: Chromosome speculation The problem with differences in chromosomes is not that hard to incorporate into the evolutionary scheme. Offspring with more chromosomes than its parents does happen from time to time (mongoloidism, mutation of plants with colchicine), due to improper cell division. The problem would be in reproduction and passing this increase reliably to THEIR offspring. But what of a normal couple which had a propensity for bearing children with a consistent mongoloid genetic defect? We would then have more than one organism with the same increase in chromosomes. Would they be fertile amongst themselves? TMoock ------------------------------ Date: 14 April 1981 01:21-EST From: Dale R. Worley Subject: A step toward scientific creationism It strikes me as somewhat unfair that the proponents of creationism spend all their time hacking evolution, and do not put their own theory(s) up on the intellectual shooting range. In hopes of eliminating this, I would like, with your help, to construct one or more theories that can justify the title "scientific creationism". See USERS1; DRW SC at MIT-AI for more details. I will append any mail I get on the subject to the file. Also, the English pepper moths are turning white again. It seems the air quality is improving over there. Another example is the replacement of the "alpha" type of haptoglobin (a blood protein) with the "alpha 2" type. It seems that the details of the mutation involved can be seen even at the DNA level, and the biochemists have a pretty good idea why "alpha 2" is better. Also, sickle-cell anemia and its relation to malaria could be cited. (Note that the fact that sickle-cell anemia gave protection to malaria was deduced solely from evolutionary grounds. Then someone spent years trying to find out how it actually gave that protection.) But, these arguments aren't really that good; (most) creationists believe that species change a little over time. The critical question is whether species give rise to other species. Dale ------------------------------ Date: 14 Apr 1981 11:59 PST From: Kolling at PARC-MAXC Subject: space treaties So "space industrialization will benefit Big Businesses, but is being payed for by taxes" and "the taxpayers pay for it, the corporations benefit by it"? Whom, may I ask, do you think holds the jobs in these companies, and who makes profits on or gets dividends from the stocks, and who benefits from the spin-offs of the various technologies developed? Tuna fish? ------------------------------ Date: 14 April 1981 1828-est From: Jim Davis Subject: Re: space treaties It seems I am going to get grief from many people about my anti-business sentiments - people are wrongly interpreting them as anti-Shuttle and anti-space industrialization. I just want to remind people of the historic pattern of U.S. industrialization - the U.S. gov't pays for R&D until something can make a profit, then it goes the 'private sector' (meaning those with lots of money), who then make a killing. Sometime that 'killing' is literally made at the expense of human life. Business has rarely shown any more concern for quality of human life than they are made to show. It may be that the only way we will get into space is to allow the mega-companies to make their fortunes. Well, so be it. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Apr 1981 1730-PST From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE Subject: addlepated adaptation See what time and a little unnatural selection can do to a fine species of myth! It seems as though it has gone from vertebrate to invertebrate with Excalibur.... A few notes about the evolution of the Arthurian legends: well before Malory, they were good bold heroic stuff, akin to Beowulf or the Song of Roland. Then the priests got hold of it and changed it to suit their purposes better, hence the ill effects of Launcelot's and Guinevere's affair (the monks thought courtly love immoral) \and/ the introduction of the search for the Grail. Of course there were great quests in the legends already, but the Grail quest is ruinous to the Round Table. Look how many people die or are found undeserving or become hermits.... Perceval by the way is the one who finds the Grail. He is a Christ figure in a lot of the legends. Malory wrote the Morte \after/ the legends had gotten wrecked. He couldn't take out all the bad stuff, but softened it enough to give it its marvellous bittersweet quality. If you are in Cambridge, go see Professor Bloomfield at Harvard and talk with him about it. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 16-APR "MDP at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #98 *** EOOH *** Date: 16 APR 1981 0541-EST From: MDP at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #98 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Thursday, 16 Apr 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 98 Today's Topics: Administrivia - JPM out of town, SF Topics - Monopoles, SF Books - Harlan's World & Imperial Earth, SF Movies - Fugitive from the Empire & Excalibur, Society - Profits in space ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 04/16/81 00:00:00 From: Moderator Pro Tem Subject: JPM out of town Jim McGrath, SF-LOVERS' regular Moderator, is out of town until next week. Meanwhile I will act in his stead. I look forward to getting the first look at the digests for the next few days... Enjoy, enjoy! Mike Peeler ------------------------------ Date: 04/16/81 00:00:00 From: The Moderator Subject: Notes on Magnetic Monopoles for FTPing In response to an earlier inquiry made in the pages of this digest, Hans Moravec has sent to SF-LOVERS some notes of his involving the physical properties of magnetic monopoles. Everyone interested in reading this material should obtain the file from the site which is most convenient for them. If you cannot do so, please send mail to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST and we will be happy to make sure that you get a copy. Please obtain your copies in the near future however, since the files will be deleted in one week. A copy of the material will also be available upon request from the SF LOVERS archives. Thanks go to Alyson Abramowitz, Richard Brodie, Roger Duffey, Richard Lamson, Doug Philips, Don Woods, and Paul Young for providing space for the materials on their systems. Site Filename MIT-AI DUFFEY;SFLVRS MONO CMUA TEMP:MONO.SFL[X440DP0Z] PARC-MAXC [Maxc]SFLOVERS-MONO.TXT SU-AI MONO.SFL[T,DON] MIT-Multics >udd>sm>rsl>sf-lovers>monopole.text. DEC 10&20 KL2137::FTN20:MONO.TXT DEC VAX KIRK::db1:[abramowit.sf]mono.txt [Note, you can TYPE or FTP the file from SAIL without an account.] ------------------------------ Date: 15 APR 1981 0945-EST From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Harlan's World I would imagine that, like most of Harlan's projects, this got bound up in his personal tornado and will not be ready for quite a long time. (Seen LAST DANGEROUS VISIONS recently?). Also, since he was changing publishers last summer, that's an additional slowdown for everything. It was my recollection, further, that: 1. There were \\three// races, the third being crablike (though their ranges were sufficiently exclusive that you didn't have to have all three types in a story). 2. Most of the stories have had magazine publication; Poul Anderson's was up for a Hugo in 1978 (from Nov (?) 77 ANALOG). 3. The anthology may never be published in complete form, since one of the stories based on the world is Pohl's JEM, which is a substantial novel in its own right. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Apr 1981 06:07:31-PST From: decvax!duke!unc!tyg at Berkeley Re: Imperial Earth. The Makenzies weren't sterile but during Malcolm's trips between Earth and Mars, he got zapped by enough radiation to damage his genes. He and Ellen had had a child, Anitra who was perfect physically, but a veggie mentally. At least that's what it says on p.9 of the paperback (courtesy of the UNC-CH E.Clipse Memorial SF Library next to this terminal). It also states that Malcolm saw the best genetic surgeons in the system to try to correct it. It could be that the flaw was actually always present, but they just gave him that excuse. Or maybe Clarke did goof. Tom Galloway at UNC-CH ------------------------------ Date: 14 Apr 1981 1900-PST Sender: LEAVITT at USC-ISI Subject: Fugitive from the Empire (FftE) From: Mike Leavitt I was giving myself 5-2 odds that the first SFL review of "Fugitive from the Empire" would be a pan. It felt like something a purist would need to criticize! Right, the characters seemed a bit confused. Some of my favorite scenes in Fritz Leiber's stuff has some marvelously confused characters. Yes indeed, there is some deliberate anachronism in the speech idiom, but only for the "wise guy" character, as I recall. The quest was as silly as ninety percent of the S&S quests I've ever read about. But the mood was wonderful. It used some electronic music, and some hackneyed stutter/slow motion effects, but the overall feeling was as close as I've even seen to a visual capturing of the mood of my favorite Sword and Sorcery novels. However they did it, it worked for me. But then again, I liked LotR, too. This is in no way an endorsement of the serial to follow, of course. I've been fooled too often on that. But if FftE is on again, and you like S&S for its mood, its sense of heroic silliness, its action, its quests; then I suspect FftE won't waste your time. Mike ------------------------------ Date: 15 Apr 1981 14:46:14-PST From: ARPAVAX.arnold at Berkeley Subject: Who finds the Grail Now, now. It was Galahad and Perceval who find the grail, and Galahad is really the central figure in the Mass in which the Grail is revealed, and then he disappears. I must confess that the reason Galahad didn't find it in Excalibur was that he didn't exist. (How's that again? No Galahad?!? Well, Lancelot, you see, never had a son in the movie. No Son? No maiden who tricks him into thinking he's lying with Guenivere? Nope, tough shit, buster. That whole sequence, along with Lancelot's life with his seductress, has disappeared. Must have been overexposed...) However, that's my point. Uther seduces Igraine and produces Arthur. Merlin takes Arthur. Arthur pulls the sword from the Stone. After that it resembles the Arthurian tales as handed down to us (I confess through several revisions) only superficially. Their claim to having adapted it from "Le Morte Darthur (sic)" reminds me of a Monty Python line: "adapted for radio by putting it on a board and banging a few nails through it." Having crucified it, they probably drew as much from the "Camelot" musical as Le Morte D'Arthur. Ken P.S. I might also say that I'd think it was worth it as part of a double bill or through some otherwise more economical method, but not at first-run movie prices. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Apr 1981 1914-PST Sender: LEAVITT at USC-ISI Subject: Profits in Space From: Mike Leavitt It seems like there are two distinct issues here. The first is how much profit businesses should get from enterprises that are made possible entirely by tax monies; the second is whether or not private profits from space are legitimate in any conceivable situations. I fully accept the legitimacy of the first argument: I might come out fairly strongly for profits here, but objections and limitations are certainly arguable. Unfortunately, the space treaty would stop that discussion at its inception: profits, per se, would not be legal. This is wrong for many reasons, but the practical one is that without the opportunity for profits, at some time, space will not be developed, except by national military establishments. Is this really preferable to some businesspeople making a few bucks, especially (returning to the first argument) if they could be minimally dependent on tax money, and some real financial risk was involved? The way to keep space peaceful is by some people having some *real* interest (not just ideological preference) for keeping it peaceful. Who, more than people with their own capital at risk, would be more likely to be the future space pacifists? Nations? Come on, now. Mike ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 18-APR "MDP at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #99 *** EOOH *** Date: 18 APR 1981 0717-EST From: MDP at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #99 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Saturday, 18 Apr 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 99 Today's Topics: Administrivia - No Friday digest, SF Books - Dell, SF Movies - Fugitive from the Empire & Excalibur: Who finds the Grail?, Society - NASA's Enterprise & Space treaties & Big businesses, SF Topics - Cyber SF ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Saturday, April 18, 1981 From: The Moderator Subject: No Friday digest No, you did not miss a digest. Due to the small amount of material SF Lovers sent in, and because that material included no announcements that could not stand a day's delay, your Moderator decided to let the broth brew another day and serve up a meatier digest. This Saturday digest is Volume 3, Issue 99 (V3 #99), right after Thursday's #98. Happy reading, Mike ------------------------------ Date: 16 Apr 81 17:28-PDT From: mclure at Sri-Unix Subject: Dell April LOCUS reports that Dell is terminating its SF line, including the Quantum series... sorry to see the latter go. It had such a high standard. ------------------------------ Date: 16 April 1981 1343-EST (Thursday) From: Steven Clark at CMU-10A (C410SC60) Subject: Fugitive from the Empire Does anyone out there know who did the music? I'd swear it was Tangerine Dream. I think that for a modern TV show, FftE was an excellent adaptation of S&S to TV. However, I must agree that it was pretty weak. Does anyone know anything about the upcoming specials? -Steve ------------------------------ Date: 16 Apr 1981 21:01:21-PST From: ARPAVAX.arnold at Berkeley Subject: who finds the grail I have been overwhelmed. My memory of Malory (Le Morte D'Arthur) was that Galahad and Perceval (Parsifal, if you will) find the Grail together. However, (a) I haven't read Malory for quite a few years, and (b) I must bow to those who point out that it is valid for the script writers to borrow from the multitudinous versions of the legends to get what they want, and some of them have Perceval the sole discoverer of the Grail. I suppose when they claimed to be adapted from Malory, I took them too literally. The (mis)spelling should have tipped me off. Ken P.S. I STILL think that it isn't worth first-run movie prices, but maybe I just can't admit that I'm wrong.... ------------------------------ Date: 16 Apr 1981 10:31 PST From: Hamilton.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: Who finds the Grail I haven't seen "Excalibur", but it could be that it draws from Wagner as much as from Malory. In "Parsifal", there is no Galahad or Arthur, just the "pure fool" Parsifal, who recovers the Grail from a bad guy whose name I forget just now. "Lohengrin" (actually written prior to "Parsifal") follows the adventures of Parsifal's son Lohengrin in defending the unjustly accused Elsa von Brabant. Wagner drew freely from both Christian and Nordic mythology to create a fascinating world all his own. --Bruce ------------------------------ Date: 16 Apr 1981 1328-PST From: Richard Pattis Subject: NASA's Enterprise What ever happened to the Space Shuttle named Enterprise? Rich ------------------------------ Date: 16 April 1981 03:56-EST From: Charles E. Haynes Subject: space treaties Last I looked corporations (esp big ones) payed taxes too, and none of them get welfare, or Social Security... so why beef when they get some benefit from their taxes? -- Charles ------------------------------ Date: 04/16/81 1647-EDT From: JSOUTH at LL ref: the parasitic big businesses Now that we've seen the assertion a few times, its time to come up with some examples, Chip. Transistors, automobiles, airplanes, synthetic fibers, antibiotics, telephone, telvision, radio, electric lights, photography, electricity, anesthesia? Sure, over the last 30 years gov't R&D has been growing. But what's it gotten us? Nuclear power? It might be interesting to debate the influence of gov't R&D on jets, computers, or integrated circuits. Anyway, a prediction: When someone makes a profit on space operations (other than as a contractor to a government) said operations will bear only accidental resemblance to gov't funded R&D/operations. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 1981 at 0138-CST From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 ^^^^^^^^^^^^ SOME DEFINITIONS FOR THE "CYBER-SF" PROJECT ^^^^^^^^^^^^ The main response we've gotten to our robot TYPES query has been queries as to what our definitions are. Well, we have been collecting both TYPE ideas \and/ definitions, measuring each's adequacy against the other. Here are 3 or 4 sets of definitions we've picked up so far, none of which strikes us as wholly adequate. Can anyone out there provide some others? THE VISUAL ENCYCLOPEDIA OF SF has the following: "A robot may be defined as a mobile artifact, made of metal, that can usually think for itself. It may or may not look like a human being, although those that most resemble man often seem the most intelligent." "Androids may be defined as 'robots made of flesh'. While they can be programmed to accept orders in the same way as robots, their bodies are chemically or biologically based and are grown rather than built." "... the real mark of the humanoid robot is not so much that it appears human in shape, as that it may have human psychological attributes or characteristics. In short, a robot personality. To achieve this, a robot may be bestowed with some form of emotion; ..." "The whole point of an android is that it is almost indistinguishable from a human." [Note: Asimov wrote the introduction to the section on ROBOTS AND ANDROIDS which the above is from; the section, on COMPUTERS AND CYBERNETICS was introduced by Heinlein.] "It might be easy for the newcomer to confuse the science fiction development of computers with that of robots, but there is a distinct difference. The robot grew out of the original desire to produce a mechanical servant. The computer, on the other hand, grew out of the need to have a faultless and speedy calculator." Warrick's in THE CYBERNETIC IMAGINATION IN S/F, aren't too bad: (p. xvi) For the purposes of the study a computer is defined as an automatic electronic machine for performing calculations and for storing and processing information. A robot is defined as a mobile machine system made of nonbiological materials such as metal, plastic, and electronic devices. The robot may be self-controlled (have its computer within), remotely controlled (have its computer somewhere else), or an intermediate machine, with the robot being partly self- activated and partly remotely controlled. ...androids ...are defined as humanlike creatures, designed by men, made of biological materials. ...cyborgs ...are defined as entities built by joining mechanisms and biological organisms. Mowshowitz, in his anthology INSIDE INFORMATION: Computers in Literature [I'm not sure of the subtitle, except that it \does/ say "computers"], has definitions so fuzzy as to be non-definitions (to say nothing of an antiquated source!) "Since computers play a casual role in a large segment of contemporary science fiction, it is not too useful to insist on a rigid demarcation of the 'computer tale.' Although the distinctions between robots, androids, and computers are not always observed in science fiction, these concepts do provide a rough typology. In his introduction to SCIENCE FICTION THINKING MACHINES Conklin characterizes a robot as an essentially mechanical creature whose behavioral repertoire is circumscribed by built-in design limitations. Robots usually appear as servants, although they occasionally disobey 'The Three Laws of Robotics'.... Again following Conklin we may describe androids (or humanoids) as living beings 'created wholly or partly through processes other than human birth.' ...Since robots and androids often feature computerized control mechanisms or 'brains,' stories dealing with them must be included among computer-related tales." Mowshowitz' perception of what a computer is, is so wooly that he includes the following in the anthology as a poem concerning "computers". "The 23rd Psalm-- Modern Style" by Alan Simpson "The Lord is my external-internal integrative mechanism, I shall not be deprived of gratification for my vicerogenic hungers or my need-dispositions, He motivates me to orient myself towards a non-social object with affective significance, He positions me in a non-decisional situation, He maximizes my adjustment." ------------------------------ Date: 17 April 1981 03:31-EST From: Robert W. Kerns Subject: "Cyborg Types" While you're building your list of types, don't forget the network, as exemplified by John Ford's "Web of Angels", and Norman Spinrad's "Pink and Blue War" or whatever it's called (I don't think that's the right name, but it should ring a bell.) Both have comparatively reasonable depictions of exrememely large-scale computer networks, especially the latter. And then there's the super-computer-running-the-universe, as in Chalker's Wellworld series. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Summary-line: 19-APR "MDP at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #100 Date: 19 APR 1981 0741-EST From: MDP at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #100 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI *** EOOH *** Date: 19 APR 1981 0741-EST From: MDP at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #100 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Sunday, 19 Apr 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 100 Today's Topics: SF TV - Capricorn One, SF Books - Cyber SF, Physics Today - Bumblebees, Society - The space shuttle & Profits from Space & Gov't helping technology, Spoiler - Excalibur ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 17 Apr 1981 2311-PST From: Daul at OFFICE Subject: CAPRICORN ONE on tv This film will be on NBC Sunday evening. Check your local listings for time. ------------------------------ KLH@MIT-AI 04/18/81 15:13:34 Re: Random computer entry... I wonder how those people looking for computers in SF would classify "Bernhard the Conqueror" (sorry, forget author -- but style is Sheckley-ish). In some ways it's almost logical... (p.s. the Spinrad book re "pink & blue war" is titled "A World Between". Good.) ------------------------------ Date: 18 Apr 1981 at 2237-CST From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ CYBER-SF PROJECT ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Nope, we haven't overlooked the two types of 'cybernetic' devices Kerns mentioned in the April 18 SF-L, tho that's not to say we haven't missed some other type. But to ease things onto SF-L gradually (because of reasons of space and to lessen the confusion of taking up too many topics at once) we started with ROBOTS. Our preliminary work showed them to be the least messy of the computers-&-robots-&-cyborgs ilk. The COMPUTERS per se are the \worst/, and will be presented last. Like dessert, maybe? But who, other than a bird, would consider a bucket of worms "dessert"?! ------------------------------ Date: 18 Apr 1981 at 1157-PST From: obrien at RAND-UNIX Subject: Robots vs. Computers in SF I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the discussion of Computers in SF that took place about nine months or so ago in SF-LOVERS, given the current hoopla about Robots in SF. Seems there should be a wealth of material in the archives, as it was quite a major discussion. If I knew more about bucky bits I'd dive into ITS and see what I could come up with. Moderator? ------------------------------ Date: 18 April 1981 03:00 est From: Schauble.Multics at MIT-Multics Subject: More bumblebees As a recall reading about it, the original statement was: If you assume a fixed wing, and you assume that the figures we have for available power (from metabolic studies) are accurate, then the combination of available power and wing area will not allow a bumblebee to fly. The figures for available power turned out be to close. But, everyone who has every watched a bumblebee, including the researchers, knows that it does not have a fixed wing and that it has the glide angle of a brick. Assuming a fixed wing, while known to be wrong, was the best that aerodynamics could do at the time. This old saw is not a case of scientists being mistaken; they knew their knowledge was incomplete. It is rather a case of the later users of the data taking a piece out of context and losing the qualifications that were put on it. Something that happens far too often. My source for this is a Sci Am article on (surprise) the flight of the bumblebee. I can maybe find the reference if people are REALLY interested. ------------------------------ Date: 18 April 1981 1127-EST (Saturday) From: David.Smith at CMU-10A (C410DS30) Subject: orbiter Enterprise The Enterprise is the structural test article. I read somewhere that if Congress didn't come through with the funds for another orbiter (fourth?), that Nasa would test it less severely, refurbish it, and use it. - David Smith ------------------------------ Date: 18 Apr 1981 at 1159-PST From: obrien at RAND-UNIX Subject: Space Shuttle Enterprise My understanding was that the Space Shuttle Enterprise was in fact named a little too early - it exists, but was never intended to fly in space! It's a full shuttle, but used solely for ground-based testing. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Apr 1981 (Saturday) 1620-PST From: DWS at LLL-MFE Subject: Profits from space. We're going to build a railroad with tax money, but not let any nasty corporations profit from it. Right. ------------------------------ JNC@MIT-MC 04/18/81 10:36:56 Re: Gov't helping technology Well, to go back to your example of airplanes, it's true that the Wright brothers invented them, but what kept them going for the next n years was the Gov't use of planes, both for mail and military uses. Private aviation didn't really catch on until after WWI, when there were lots of surplus planes and pilots. (This isn't quite the case you were looking for, I realize.) A purer example is computers. The first computers, both in the US and in England, were done as university research projects which the government funded, for ballistics and code-breaking. You will notice that there is not much funding of scientific (as opposed to technological) pure research. About the only fields that get a lot are physics and biology, both of which have immediate applications. Ever seen anybody write a proposal that said "I'm gonna look at X because I'm curious" and get much money (especially these days)? The rate of technological change has been speeding up, and the entry price for new technologies is rising. A good argument can be made that the Gov't can help where private companies would not be able to go. ------------------------------ MDP@MIT-AI 4/19/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last in this digest. It discusses the movie "Excalibur" and Arthurian legend at length. People who have not seen "Excalibur" may not wish to read any further. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Apr 1981 2056-EST From: HEDRICK at RUTGERS Subject: who finds the grail Clearly Excalibur does owe something to Wagner. Indeed the "Good Friday Spell" from Parsifal supplies the majority of the background music for that movie. (One is surprised to see credits at the end for "original music" when the score consists almost entirely of pieces of Parsifal and Carmina Burana.) As you may know, Malory drew from some earlier romances. I believe that the version of the grail quest used in Excalibur is from the romance "Perceval" by Chretien de Troyes, and its continuations by some later authors, known collectively as the continuators. There was some mention about the Grail being lost. I don't recall Wagner's version. But in Excalibur, and I believe in the earlier romances in which Perceval is the grail hero, the grail is in fact not lost. It is in the grail castle. The Fisher king, who (in later versions) turns out to have been wounded by the spear that pierced Christ's side ["the dolorous blow"], is sustained by eating (drinking?) from the grail. The problem is that while the grail can keep him alive, it alone can't heal his wound, nor restore the desolated countryside. This requires some initiative on the part of a knight. When Perceval reached the grail castle, if he had asked about the meaning of the pageant that he saw there, everything would have come out right. But he didn't. (The is the famous "unasked question".) The reason is that he was in a state of sin because he had run away from home, and left his mother to die from grief at his having run away. This sin kept him from being able to ask about holy matters. The reason he had to run away was that his mother had been keeping him tied to her apron strings, while he wanted to become a [Jedi?] knight like his father. When he finally did leave, he was rather visibly a fool, presumably because his mother had tried to keep him from following his father's footsteps by bringing him up in isolation. Excalibur doesn't show Parsifal run away from home, but it does portray him as "the great fool", so at least they get his character right. Excalibur shows the desolated countryside, and has Parsifal find the grail in a castle. He also runs away from the castle without doing what he should have. However, he is given a second chance and does ask the right question then. [I don't know whether he got this second chance in the original legends. The DEC reference manuals I have in the office here do not give very complete coverage of the Grail legends.] At that point the countryside is restored and Arthur is healed. What seems to have happened is that Excalibur has identified Arthur with the Fisher king. This seems a good way to paste together the traditions about Arthur with the story of Perceval. Malory took another route to pasting together these legends, and probably lost a bit more of the flavor of the original story about Perceval. Once Arthur has been identified with the Fisher king, he can't be lying around in the Grail castle with an unhealable spear wound, since he has clearly been leading knights around the countryside. However Excalibur got a similar effect by having Arthur more or less powerless. Some interpreters have claimed that the spear wound (which was in the thigh) was a symbol of impotence. Charles Williams points out (in "the Figure of Arthur") that this should be taken in its broadest sense and made to be spiritual as well as sexual impotence. If this is true, Excalibur has made Arthur show that impotence, but without the actual spear wound. So that stayed within the spirit of the original. The desolation of the countryside makes sense in Excalibur, since an impotent king can be expected (at least in this sort of legend) to be associated with a desolate country. The cost of this approach is that Excalibur has lost the Christian overtones that give the grail legends much of their grandeur in the later versions. It has given up the connection with Joseph of Arimathea, the identification of the grail with the cup used at the last supper, and the blow by the spear used at the crucifixion. What the Excalibur folks have done is quite normal in fantasy. They have taken a legend that has become more Christianized in successive versions and tried to go back to a pagan version. However clearly just returning to Chretien de Troyes would give them a less developed form of the legend than they wanted, so they built up a different form that tried to deal with the same issues that Malory dealt with, but with a somewhat different orientation. In general I would have to say that whereas Malory had a knightly, Christian view [though there may be those who would question its connection with the Christianity of the Gospels], the people who did Excalibur had something more like a pantheist view. I confess that I really did expect Merlin to say "use the force..." a couple of times. But this is because both Excalibur and the Star Wars people are trying to do the same thing: get a religion that does not have a personal God, has room for some magic, and is sufficiently abstract that it won't offend modern tastes. As to the merits of the movie - I rather liked it. For the first half of the movie I found it somehow impossibly stilted. I am sure that if I had been watching it with a college audience they would have broken into laughter, and it would have been all over. However it began to be clear to me that the movie was not supposed to be realistic. We have become very accustomed to "realistic" fantasy, where all the technical details are exact to the period of history when it might have happened. It seems clear that that is not what they were after here. They wanted somehow to get a mythic, almost dreamlike, effect, and indeed they succeeded in this. Knights are supposed to be in shining armor, and they were. It is beside the point that in real life they wouldn't wear their armor as much as they did in the movie. However I can't help thinking that there should be a way to do this without losing your audience, and that if there is, they didn't find it. I did find that by about half way through the movie, I had been sucked into the mood of it. Anyone who is interested in knowing more about the various legends behind the Arthurian cycle is refered to the excellent essay "the Figure of Arthur", by Charles Williams. It is available in a volume together with some poems by Williams on Arthur, and commentary by C.S. Lewis. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 20-APR "MDP at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #101 *** EOOH *** Date: 20 APR 1981 0700-EST From: MDP at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #101 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Monday, 20 Apr 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 101 Today's Topics: SF Fandom - Film academy, SF Books - Cyber SF query & Shadow of the Torturer & Medieval SF, Society - Parasitic big business, Spoiler - The Wounded Land ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 19 Apr 1981 14:26 PST From: Hamilton.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Academy of SF, Fantasy, & Horror Films Los Angeles SF Lovers: I believe that many of you are not aware of the Academy of Science Fiction, Fantasy and Horror Films and its activities. We screen an average of two films per week. Most screenings are 10:30 am Saturday and Sunday at the Gordon Theater, LaBrea and Melrose in Hollywood. Occasionally we get to use the plush Norris Theater at USC. The films are a mix of current and pre-releases from both major studios and small independents. Some are not F/ SF/ Horror, since we also get to see current major releases presented by the LA Film Teachers' Assn. We often get to meet stars/ directors/ producers after the screenings. Members get to vote on annual awards, which are presented at an awards show open to members, and which is usually televised later on non-network TV. Periodically, academy members also present special programs on makeup, special effects, film history, etc. The Academy is a non-profit, educational institution. Membership is open to the public, and admits the member and one guest to all regular screenings. For more information, send netmail to , or write to: Dr. Donald A. Reed, President Academy of Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Horror Films 334 W. 54th St. Los Angeles, CA 90037 ------------------------------ Date: 19 Apr 1981 at 2320-CST From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ CYBER-SF QUERY ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Does anyone know-- of a BOOK where there's a 'cybernetic' device which utilizes a disembodied brain yet is \not/ sentient? whether there is any 'cybernetic' relevance in Campbell's THE MIGHTIEST MACHINE? (The "machine" referred to in the title is the sun, so this may be a false candidate.) ------------------------------ Date: 19 Apr 1981 1453-PST From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE Subject: "Shadow of the Torturer" It's hard to know what to say about this book, except that it's definitely worth your time. It's the life story of an executioner, starting with his appenticeship in the torturer's guild, and ending in his early manhood. Later books apparently chronicle his rise to the Autarchy, the emperorship. The second, "The Claw of the Conciliator" is already out in hardback. It is not a violent or sadistic story, nor is the protagonist particularly evil; he is just a cold, dark man doing the job for which he was trained. He tells the story in such an even philosophic tone that you have to shake yourself to get out of it. Example: The knife had somehow fallen from the dead man's neck. Perhaps he had pulled it out in his agony. When I bent to pick it up, I discovered that the coin was still in my hand and thrust it into my pocket. We believe that we invent symbols. The truth is that they invent us; we are their creatures, shaped by their hard, defining edges. When soldiers take their oath they are given a coin, an asimi stamped with the profile of the Autarch. Their acceptance of that coin is their acceptance of the special duties and burdens of military life - they are soldiers from that moment, though they may know nothing of the management of arms. I did not know that then, but it is a profound mistake to believe that we must know of such things to be influenced by them, and in fact to believe so is to believe in the most debased and superstitious kind of magic. The would-be sorceror alone has faith in the efficacy of pure knowledge; rational people know that things act of themselves or not at all. Gene Wolfe is the author. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Apr 1981 1414-PST (Sunday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: News Item: Medieval Science Fiction Medieval Scholar Is Sci-Fi Publisher From AP Newsfeatures EDITOR'S NOTE - Fantasy in publishing is generally associated with science fiction. David Hartwell also thinks of the Middle Ages. He finds comparisons with the two and has combined the interests into a publishing success. By PHIL THOMAS AP Books Editor NEW YORK (AP) - David G. Hartwell traveled from the Middle Ages to 2001 A.D. in record time. Hartwell holds a doctorate in medieval literature. He also holds the job of director of science fiction and fantasy for Pocket Books. His travel through time began when, fresh out of graduate school, he took a look at the academic world, was not taken by what he saw, and decided not to teach as originally planned. Instead, he went into publishing. ''Frankly, there were no good teaching jobs available at the time and in publishing you got paid better - so I set aside medieval literature,'' the 40-year-old Hartwell says. ''My move was not an illogical one. The medieval period was the last period in which fantasy was the dominant mode in much of the literature and much of the rest contained, at least, outrageous and fantastic elements. Dante's 'Inferno,' for example, is fantasy if looked at from a certain angle.'' Fantasy, he says, ''using a rule-of-thumb definition, is that which includes all manner of impossibilities. You pick it up and say, 'OK, this is not real,' and then go on and read and perhaps enjoy it. Science fiction is a special case of fantasy which deals with things that are not true but could - under certain circumstances - be true, no matter how improbable. You pick up SF and say, 'OK, this is not real but there is something here that could be real.'' Hartwell's first publishing job was as a consultant in science fiction to a paperback house, then he moved on to another as SF editor and came to his current position about 1 1/2 years ago. He and his staff are responsible for publishing five science fiction and fantasy titles a month in paperback and between six and eight a year in hardcover. Some of the paperbacks are reprints, others are reissues, and still others are new issues. All of the hardcovers are new, says Hartwell. Where do all the titles come from? Hartwell gestures at the heaps of manuscripts and books stacked about his office. ''We try to recycle this stuff quickly,'' he says. ''The bad does not hang around for very long.'' An omnivorous reader of SF and fantasy since ''I was in the third grade,'' Hartwell says he looks at about 30 books and manuscripts a week. ''I read some of each and I read fully at least four or five manuscripts and a couple of books. ''Most of these things come from agents, but a lot also comes in over the transom - unsolicited. The SF and fantasy departments are the last bastions of the publishing world in which the stuff in the slush pile is read. And I do find publishable books in the slush pile - 15 to 20 percent of the books I buy come in over the transom. There's a lot of talent around these days. ''Actually, the aspiring young writer who wants to be a novelist stands a better chance of getting published today if he writes SF or fantasy. There really aren't too many markets for straight fiction.'' Hartwell estimates the science fiction-fantasy market in the United States at about 60,000 fans ''who read and support. They are not casual readers. They read anywhere up to 12 titles a month. But there also is a casual market. Those who read from three to, maybe, 12 books a year. They probably got interested through the movies and TV, mediums which have picked up the imagery - if not the ideal content of SF and fantasy - and translated it into American pop culture.'' Hartwell says that while ''no real research has been done in the field, the indications I have are that the majority of our readers are 21 and under. Fantasy and science fiction generally is a phenomenon of youth. ''It seems that when people get out of college they find that SF and fantasy is not fashionable in most circles so they stop reading it. Although some do come back when they get older.'' ------------------------------ Date: 19 Apr 1981 20:53:16 EST (Sunday) From: David Mankins Subject: parasitic big business Well, integrated circuits would still be an exotic technology if the "defense" department hadn't paid outrageously high prices to put them into missile guidance systems, making room for bigger warheads. Airplanes would be fairly exotic, too, (or at least would still be in the barn-storming stage) without the huge subsidies to airports making airlines possible (ask any private pilot), and lots of defense R&D making jet planes faster and more efficient. Industry doesn't get welfare? What do you call Chrysler's bailout? What do you call the similar bailout for Lockheed in the early seventies, or the massive LTV bailout of the late sixties? (Or was that just a scandal? I was too young to be conscious back then so I'm not sure.) ------------------------------ MDP@MIT-AI 4/20/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last in the digest. It enumerates key points of Stephen R. Donaldson's The Wounded Land. People who have not read The Wounded Land may not wish to read any further. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Apr 1981 0526-PST From: Mark Crispin Subject: "The Wounded Land" This probably needs a spoiler warning. Having finished my first re-reading of "The Wounded Land" by Steven R. Donaldson, I wonder what other people think about some of the questions left unanswered, specifically: . Is it really the One Tree and the re-making of the Staff of Law that Covenant must seek to satisfy the Land's need? The name of the second book ("The One Tree") implies this, but what then is the explanation of Mhoram's warning to Covenant that what he seeks is not what it appears to be? . What is Vain's purpose that is so desirable? To re-make the Staff of Law? To BECOME the re-made Staff of Law? Almost seems too obvious; Donaldson has never let us off that easy before and I doubt he's going to do so now. . Did Covenant really sell his soul to Lord Foul, losing his freedom, when he saved Joan? Did Covenant die in our world? . What is Linden's purpose? Elena said that she will heal them all in the end. Does this mean that Linden will be the person who wields the Staff of Law and removes the Sunbane? . This one really distresses me, and I have a sneaky suspicion it might be a key to some of the other riddles: Where the hell is the third Raver? One is in the na-Mhoram, one has attacked Covenant from time to time to make sure he has enough venom. Where is the other slimy bastard hiding? Could he be IN Covenant in the form of venom? Probably not, since Linden would have perceived the Raver. Still, where is he? -- Mark -- ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 22-APR "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #102 *** EOOH *** Date: 22 APR 1981 0648-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #102 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Wednesday, 22 Apr 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 102 Today's Topics: Administravia - No Missing Digest & JPM back in town, SF Events - Rodenberry to get Degree for STAR TREK, Convention Calendar addenda, SF Books - King David's Spaceship & The Book of the New Sun Series ("Shadow of the Torturer") & The Sword on Shannara and Piers Anthony & David Hartwell at Pocket books, SF Radio - Star Wars repeats, Society - NASA's Enterprise & Big businesses and governemnts, Humor ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 1980 17:44 PST From: The Moderator Subject: Administrivia - JPM back in town Well, your regular moderator has resumed the helm with this issue. Keep those messages coming!! Jim ------------------------------ Date: 21 Apr 1980 17:32 PST From: The Moderator Subject: Administrivia - No Missing Digest Due to a lack of material, a Tuesday digest was not sent out. Thus this is the first digest since the Monday, April 20 issue. Since all digests are consecutively numbered (this is issue 102 of volume 3), it is always possible to determine if you missed an issue. If so, then a message to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST will result in the missing issue being resent to you within a couple of days. Jim ------------------------------ Date: 21 April 1981 17:01 est From: Janofsky.Tipi at MIT-Multics (Bill Janofsky) Subject: King David's Spaceship I just finished Jerry Pournelle's "King David'd Spaceship" and, since I haven't seen anything about it in SF-LOVERS, I thought I'd contribute my two cents. But first, a word or two of warning. [ The existence of this work has been mentioned in SF-LOVERS, although no review of it. See Vol 3, Issues 59 and 78. - Jim ] I'm not very particular about what SF I enjoy. I don't require absolute perfection, eternal literary merit, deep metaphysical symbolism, or trenchant critical analysis before I can enjoy SF. If the story has a discernable plot, decent characterizations, consistency with its basic assumptions, an imaginative treatment, and is well written and *ENTERTAINING*, then I'll rave about it. Pico review: RAVE! Personal Opinion: (Is there any such thing as 'impersonal opinion' ??) A very good adventure story much like the Dorsai novels of Gordon Dickson and much improved over the earlier version, "A Spaceship for the King". Although I don't remember much of the earlier version, this novel strikes me as having characters more human and a story developed better than its predecessor. I thoroughly enjoyed it. However, if you're really looking for something like Goulart's heavy satire, Zelazny's multiplicity of characters, or Norman's endless heroic epic, then skip this one. Regards, Bill J. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 1981 18:38:04-PST From: kalash at Berkeley Subject: "Shadow of the Torturer" and sequels. There are supposed to be 4 (four) books in the series (The Book of the New Sun) of which Shadow is the first. The only warning I have is NOT to attempt to read the second ("Claw of the Conciliator") before you have read the first, it will make absolutely NO sense. However in conjunction with the first book it makes a fantastic pair. I recomend these books as among the best you can find. The third book ("The sword of Lictor") is due out towards the end of the year. I have been told that he has finished the third and is working on the forth (I don't know what the title is). Joe Kalash ------------------------------ Date: 21 Apr 1981 1655-EST From: Rich Schneider Subject: Terry Brooks and Piers Anthony First off, I agree with C.A.T. on The Sword on Shannara. I believe that JRR's kid should first sue for plagiarism and them castrate Brooks for hacking up a great story. [ The message refered to can be found in Volume 3, Issue 94. - Jim ] What is this crap about Piers Anothy. If any of series are "mush" it's that Xanth fantasies. How can anyone claim the Cluster and Paul of Tarot series as mush. I will admit that in the respective series Piers examines sex, and in particular inter-species sex, in great detail. Equating this with mush is a sign xenophobia. BTW, does anyone know if the next installment of Split Infinity is available yet. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 1981 1003-PST From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE Subject: Hartwell So David Hartwell is now sf editor at Pocket books. I've noticed they've had a lot of good stuff lately under the "Timescape" label. ------------------------------ Date: 21 Apr 1981 1414-PST From: Jim McGrath Subject: Rodenberry to get Degree for STAR TREK POTSDAM, N.Y. (AP) - Gene Rodenberry, the writer who created ''Star Trek,'' will be awarded an honorary degree at Clarkson College's commencement ceremonies May 17. Rodenberry will receive an honorary doctor of science degree from the school in recognition of his work on the science fiction series of the 1960s about space exploration in the future. College President Robert Plane said, ''We are honoring Mr. Rodenberry for his work which has generated a mass interest in science, especially space travel. His creative talents have fostered a link between the general public and the scientific and engineering communities.'' ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 1981 0540-PST Sender: ADPSC at USC-ISI Subject: SW Radio repeats From: ADPSC (Don) For those of us in the Washington, DC area, WETA (90.9) will be rebroadcasting episodes #1-8 on Saturday April 25 from 10:30pm until 2:30am. Don ------------------------------ Date: 21 Apr 1981 1723-EST From: Rich Schneider Subject: NASA's Enterprise If you've already received a msg, oh well!! Last I heard was that it's heading towards the Smithsonian. I hear the SNAFU is that they want to build a separate building for it and are having fiscal problems. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 1981 11:25 PST From: Kolling at PARC-MAXC Subject: government research, etc. It's my impression that the Arpanet owes its development and existence to Defense Dept. funding, but I'm willing to be corrected by anyone who knows better. [ The NET was developed under ARPA (Advanced Research Projects Agency), and is now operated under the DCA (Defense Communications Agency). - Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 21 Apr 1981 (Tuesday) 1403-EDT From: SHRAGE at WHARTON-10 (Jeffrey Shrager) Subject: Imprisoned at 545 Tech Squre: "Who is number 1?" "You are CADR-5 !"... ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 1981 11:11 PST From: Hamilton.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Con Calendar addenda [from flyers I picked up at Equicon] 22-25 May '81: Phantasmicon'81. Sheraton Plaza La Reina, Los Angeles (near airport). GOH Sam J. Jones (Flash Gordon). Art show, masquerade, 24-hr. film program, ... Galacticon TICKETRON memberships accepted. $15 until 21 May; $20 at the door. (213) 461-2896, or send SASE to 5826 Gregory Ave. #1, Los Angeles 90038 for more info. 17-19 July '81: Fantasy Faire. Amfac (Airport Marina) Hotel. Masquerade, fantasy games, "Creating Your Own Universe", awards luncheon ($12)... Membership $10 until 10 June. 1855 W. Main St., Alhambra, CA 91801. --Bruce ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Summary-line: 23-APR "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #103 *** EOOH *** Date: 23 APR 1981 0722-EST From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #103 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Thursday, 23 Apr 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 103 Today's Topics: SF Events - NEBULA Awards & Fantasy and Science Readings in Palo Alto & Rodenberry to get Degree for STAR TREK & Convention Calendar addenda, SF Books - Cyber SF query & Covered Wagon Stories (King David's Spaceship) & The Steel of Raithskar & Next Photon/Phaze Book, Society - NASA's Enterprise ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Apr 1981 1215-PST From: The Moderator Subject: NEBULA Awards this Friday The NEBULA awards will be presented this coming Friday in New York City. If any reader of SF-LOVERS is attending the awards presentation, or if anyone will be finding out the results quickly, it would be greatly appreciated if you could get them to the digest as quickly as possible. To make things even easier for would be SF-LOVERS correspondents, your moderator (me) will be reachable by phone Friday, April 24, from 7:00pm to 9:00pm pst (10:00pm to midnight est) at (415) 497 - 9458. Jim ------------------------------ Date: 22 Apr 1981 1117-PST From: Jim McGrath Subject: Fantasy and Science Readings in Palo Alto The Prometheus Centre will be presenting authors reading from their own works. The authors involved are: Peter Beagle Patricia McKillip John Stallings Rob Sweigert Refreshments will be served. Time : April 25, 8:00pm Place: 401 Florence, Palo Alto, Ca. For more information, send mail to JPM@SAIL. Jim ------------------------------ Date: 22 Apr 1981 16:29 PST From: Woods at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: Rodenberry to get Degree for STAR TREK Gee, I hope they spell his name right on the diploma! -- Don. ------------------------------ Date: 22 Apr 1981 at 0051-CST From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ CYBER-SF QUERY ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ The varying usage of "android" (and "robot", too, sometimes) in S/F poses problems. Does anyone know-- whether Asimov's robots might actually have a biological component? I ran across an odd comment in "Evidence", to the effect that Beyerley got a positronic brain and "GREW A BODY AROUND IT". whether Otho in the "Capt. Future" series is a (biological) android or actually a humanoid robot? I think he is referred to as an android, in contrast with the metallic Crag who is called a robot, but I've run across a reference to his skin or flesh being rubber-like. the provenience of KLH at MIT-AI's "Bernhard the Conquerer"? ------------------------------ Date: 22 Apr 1981 1332-PST From: Dave Dyer Subject: Westward-Ho Yesterday's rave review of "King David's Spaceship" has pushed me over the brink, to bring up one of my pet peeves about certain works on the genre. Fully half of "King David's Spaceship" is devoted to what I call a "covered wagon story" : a story in a pre-technological setting with no SF elements at all. In "King David's Spaceship", I had to suffer through an EXTENDED treatise on iron-age military tactics, to get to what was otherwise an enjoyable and well written story. The term "covered wagon story" is derived from the quintessential example of the genre, the central section of "Time Enough for Love". The absurdity of homesteading a new planet with contastoga wagon technology is etched permanently on my mind. Please don't misunderstand: I rate both the books cited as good and worth reading, despite the flaws. The objectionable sections are not in themselves bad writing, simply out of place. What rails me is that if an author has a secret urge to write historical fiction, he should go ahead and indulge! BUT please don't deliver your covered wagons in a spaceship! ------------------------------ Date: 22 Apr 1981 at 0053-CST From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ NOT GREAT, BUT STILL A \GOOD/ READ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THE STEEL OF RAITHSKAR, by Randall Garrett & V.A. Heydron (Mrs. G.) Out officially in May, this is already on the stands, and while quite different from the Lord Darcy stories we associate with Gar- rett, is a good, \competent/ adventure story. Like anything set in Atlantis, I get turned off by the worn-out old plot ploy of having the hero suddenly wake up in a strange body on an alien planet, but here it comes off credibly. The questionable critter on the cover notwithstanding, it's got a nice cat (big as a horse!) that Kolling will appreciate. The man's face, tho, creates the right impression to match its description in the text, despite the nose not being pug enough. ------------------------------ Date: 22 Apr 1981 20:54:10-PST From: eagle!mhtsa!duke!unc!tyg at Berkeley Subject: Next Photon/Phaze Book According to the coming books list in SF Chronicle, the next book in the current Piers Anthony series is Blue Adept and is due out in hardcover in the next couple of months. I think it was May, but it could be June. Probably stupid question: Why do people think I'm at Berkeley? I'm just a lowly undergrad at UNC-CH. There's probably some simple explanation, but this is my first semester on the net and I can't figure it out. [ Your messages have been routed through the Berkeley machine, so to people on the ARPANET (and sub-NETS eminating from it), you appear to be at Berkeley. - Jim ] Tom Galloway ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 1981 2152-PST From: Alan R. Katz Subject: my exploits in florida I just got back from a week of viewing the launch and landing of the Space Shuttle, boy was it neat. It happened I got in as press, and was on this tour at the Kennedy Space Center. I was walking down this hall with a group of about 100 people when I thought I heard "mumble mumble SF lovers mumble mumble." I could hardly believe my ears. Then I heard "mumble mumble arpanet node in ...". It turned out that DLW, DANNY, LSP, and MARG (@AI) were on the same bus!! I guess we are all over. I wonder if I could have gotten press accreditation to cover the launch as a representative from SF-LOVERS??? [ An amusing notion. Chuckle. But please remember not to investigate the possibility, folks, because SFL *MUST* remain inconspicuous. - Jim ] Anyway, I wrote up my experiences for publication in the OASIS news, and maybe other places. If anyone is interested in reading it, it is here at ISIF in the file: story.shuttle. You can FTP it by logging in as anonymous. When the computer problem occurred, we were all trying to figure out what had happened. Contrary to some previous msgs, all five computers ARE IBM and IBM wrote the code for the 4 primary ones. The code for the backup computer was written at Draper labs or somewhere. If there is a software bug in the IBM code, chances are it won't be in the backup computer. The problem was a timing problem which resulted in the backup computer not being able to talk with two of the primary ones. My roommate, who works at Rockwell simulating the software, said that they could have just re-IPLed the primary computers on Friday and launched, but they wanted to be sure what the problem was first. Did any SF-lovers get together at the landing?? (It was a big place.) Alan ------------------------------ DP@MIT-ML 04/23/81 00:18:06 Re: Add another con to the list Lexicon, a SF relaxicon. July 17-19 1981. Sheraton Rolling green in Andover MA. The con has NO GoH, NO Art show, NO Huckster room, and (most importantly) No hard work. registration is 17 quarters ($4.25) (chosen because 17 is the largest finite number.) mail to NESFA P.O. Box G Mit Branch P.O. Cambridge MA, 02139. Hotel rate. Weekend package double. $88. for the weekend for two people. Includes brunch for two on sunday. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Summary-line: 24-APR "JPM at MIT-ML" #SF-LOVERS Bulletin *** EOOH *** Date: 24 APR 1981 1249-EST From: JPM at MIT-ML Subject: SF-LOVERS Bulletin To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS Bulletin Friday, 24 Apr 1981 SF Radio - An SF Weekend ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 April 1981 11:00 est From: Janofsky.Tipi at MIT-Multics (Bill Janofsky) Subject: SF Radio To all SF-LOVERS in the Boston area: Glue your ear (or tape deck) to the radio this weekend! WBUR (FM 90.5) is presenting an SF WEEKEND -- two days of SF Radio to entertain and amuse you (and to try and relieve you of some cash!). The schedule is: Saturday (25Apr) 9:30-10:00AM Huxley's Brave New World, Part 1 10:00- 5:00PM Asimov's Foundation Trilogy, Parts 1-5 6:00- 7:30PM Wells's War of the Worlds 7:30- 8:45PM Beyond The War of the Worlds (A BBC spoof, I think) Sunday 9:30-10:00AM Brave New World, Part 2 10:00- 3:45PM Foundation Trilogy, Parts 5 (repeated) thru 8 3:45- 5:00PM Stanislaw Lem's The Servant 6:00-Midnight HHGttG, Parts 1-8 Happy listening, Bill J. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Bulletin *************************  1,, Summary-line: 21-Apr LISTSERV@uga.bitnet SF-LOVERS AM Digest V3 #104 *** EOOH *** Date: 24 APR 1981 1249-EST From: JPM at MIT-ML Subject: SF-LOVERS AM Digest V3 #104 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Sunday, 26 Apr 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 104 Today's Topics: Administrivia - No Missing Digest, SF Events - Convention Calendar addenda, SF Books - Cliff Notes on Asimov & Circle,Crescent,Star, SF Radio - Star Wars & HHGttG & Brave New World & Foundation Trilogy & War of the Worlds & Beyond The War of the Worlds & The Servant, SF Topics - Androids, Misc. - complex net addresses ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 25 Apr 1980 20:32 PST From: The Moderator Subject: Administrivia - No Missing Digest Due to a lack of material, neither a Friday nor a Saturday digest was sent. Thus this is the first digest since the Thursday, April 22 issue. Since all digests are consecutively numbered (this is issue 104 of volume 3), it is always possible to determine if you missed an issue. If so, then a message to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST will result in the missing issue being resent to you within a couple of days. Jim ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 1981 1903-EST From: JHENDLER at BBNA Subject: OH MY G-D, IT FINALLY HAPPENED I am sitting here holding in front of me a new found treasure: The Cliff Notes on "Asimov's Foundation Trilogy and other works." This notable literary aid contains 90 fact laden pages dealing with Asimov, SF in general, and 5 of Asimov's noteworthy pieces. (Foundation Trilogy, 14 pages; Pebble in the Sky, 9 pp; The Stars, Like Dust, 12 p.; the End of Eternity, 12 p.; and The Gods Themselves, 14 p.s) How can anyone pass this up??? -Jim ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 1981 1331-PST From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE Subject: "Circle, Crescent, Star" By Ansen Dibell is the sequel to "Pursuit of the Screamer". The setting is a colonized world now decayed from a technological height. The major remnant is the Shai, a computer complex that used to maintain essential services in the old culture like the body banks used for immortality treatments. It long ago decided that the only form of government that it would accept is the Rule of One, where one person has absolute power and absolute responsibility. The ruler can do whatever he/she/it likes, but if his actions go against the interests of society at large (as determined by the Shai) then he is executed. In the previous book, Jannus, a mortal, had helped one of the immortals commit suicide and so had come to hold the Rule of One. Now he's trying to avoid being killed by the Shai or by the rival factions in the city he's chosen to hide out in. Good stuff. ------------------------------ Date: 25 April 1981 17:11 cst From: VaughanW at HI-Multics (Bill Vaughan) Subject: remythologizing the arthurian legend Sender: VaughanW.REFLECS at HI-Multics (yet another review of EXCALIBUR) I just saw Excalibur and thought it was great. Why? Because it takes an important step towards remythologizing the Arthurian legend. This legend has been demythologized and romanticized at least once too many. It was demythologized most recently (and best, I think) by Mary Stewart (The Crystal Cave etc) -- and has been romanticized most recently by White (Once & Future King, of which the musical Camelot is a derivation). Excalibur makes of Arthur a mythic figure - perhaps for the first time since >before< Malory (a romanticizer, if you ask me). Not only that, but it brings the very myth up to date with our modern mythos of the dark ages. SF-lovers, of course, are deeply steeped in this modern mythos - Poul Anderson, Avram Davidson, and others have used it as story settings - so when we see the priest in his druidical robes waving mistletoe at people but chanting in the name of Christ, all we can think is "how fitting." Merlin's "new God - old gods" statement is another piece of that myth, as is the Earth power. Make no mistake. This stuff was never part of the original Arthurian legend. But it is the right myth for our time, and Boorman has neatly integrated Arthur into it. Bill ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 1981 (Friday) 2309-EST From: DYER at NBS-10 Subject: SW radio marathon in the D.C. area I think I saw mentioned earlier this week that the WETA (FM 91) broadcasts of radio SW 1-8 were to be Sunday 4-26 from 'prox 10:00 pm until 2:00am. However I heard on the radio a few minutes ago that the Star-Wars-athon was to be \Saturday/, from 10:30pm until the wee hours of the morning, possibly to include the 9th installment as well. Perhaps the announcer made a blunder, but I would suggest that anyone planning to listen to the SWathon tune in Sat. night, just to make sure . . . . Joan D. Vinge's major work THE SNOW QUEEN is finally out in (good quality, very nice print) paperback, at an excruciating $3.25. Enjoy, if you can afford it. -Landon- (WETA is going through that twice-yearly 'begging for dollars' marathon, so their programming is going to be erratic and filled with pleading voices, possibly throughout the SW-athon. Tapers of SW radio be warned.) ------------------------------ TLD@MIT-MC 04/25/81 12:20:25 Re: Attention Boston area SF-Lovers! WBUR (90.0MHz) is doing SF radio all weekend. Right now they are broadcasting a version of the Foundation trilogy. I don't have the complete schedule, but I believe that they will cover all of the Star Wars and Hitchhiker's Guide episodes to date. Where can I buy the Hitchhiker's Guide book (or books)? -Tom- ------------------------------ Date: 24 April 1981 10:55 est From: Janofsky.Tipi at MIT-Multics (Bill Janofsky) Subject: SF Radio To all SF-LOVERS in the Boston area: Glue your ear (or tape deck) to the radio this weekend! WBUR (FM 90.5) is presenting an SF WEEKEND -- two days of SF Radio to entertain and amuse you (and to try and relieve you of some cash!). The schedule is: Saturday (25Apr) 9:30-10:00AM Huxley's Brave New World, Part 1 10:00- 5:00PM Asimov's Foundation Trilogy, Parts 1-5 6:00- 7:30PM Wells's War of the Worlds 7:30- 8:45PM Beyond The War of the Worlds (A BBC spoof, I think) Sunday 9:30-10:00AM Brave New World, Part 2 10:00- 3:45PM Foundation Trilogy, Parts 5 (repeated) thru 8 3:45- 5:00PM Stanislaw Lem's The Servant 6:00-Midnight HHGttG, Parts 1-8 Happy listening, Bill J. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 1981 1424-EST From: Rich Schneider Subject: SF on Radio === This should have a spoiler on it, for Boston people only === WBUR-FM (90.1 ???) is having a fund raising program this weekend. They will also be having a "Science Fiction Blockbuster". According to rumor an 8-hour version of Asimov's Foundation Trilogy will be aired. Also The Hitchhiker's Guide we be on. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 1981 0602-PST Sender: WMARTIN at OFFICE-3 Subject: Androids From: WMartin at Office-3 (Will Martin) Back when I started reading SF, in the early '50's, I gleaned the lasting impression that an android was an automaton designed to LOOK like a human (or living being); it seems to me that it was common for stories to refer to androids passing as humans until being touched, when their "rubbery" or otherwise obviously non-living flesh became apparent. When did this change to become a biological construct, as is being presupposed in the current discussion? Was there just enough bionic technology developed to push the concept over the line from "building" to "growing"? Or was there a watershed story that expanded the horizon, and the idea of an android as a rubber-sheathed robot became passe'? This inquiry is inspired by the recent reference to a "humanoid robot" being distinct from an "android", and the Cyber-SF categories listed earlier. Will Martin ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 1981 1405-PST (Thursday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: complex net addresses A message from a slightly confused SF-LOVERS reader claiming he wasn't at Berkeley (in the last digest) prods me to explain to the readership what addresses of the form: foo!bar!hoopla!cranch@Berkeley really mean. These are addresses within a network used by numerous Unix systems to communicate, distinct from the Arpanet itself. The network software is called UUCP. Berkeley tends to act as a forwarding point for many sites -- thus they often appear in the address when an Arpanet destination is specified. Each of the other names is a separate site through which the message was routed on its way to Berkeley. --Lauren-- P.S. The UUCP system is essentially fully automatic, and is largely based on dialup lines. --LW-- ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 1981 19:56:33-PST From: sdcsvax!dbw at Berkeley Subject: Addition to the convention calendar July 23-26, 1981 (Southern California) SAN DIEGO COMIC CON. Confirmed Guests: Denny O'Neil, Dick Giordano, Doug Moench, Bill Sienkiewicz, L.B. Cole, Jim Shooter, Jack Kirby, Jerry Bails, Scott Shaw, Julius Schwartz, Carl Swan. El Cortez Hotel, 7th and Ash San Diego, CA; $22 single, $28 double, $7 per extra person, meal plan available $14 for three meals. Cost: $16 for a full four day membership till 6/30/81 $20 afterward; $15 for children between 6 & 12 years old; One day memberships at door, $5 7/23 & 7/26, $6 7/24 & 7/25. Children under five get in free. P.O. Box 17066 San Diego, CA 92117. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Summary-line: 27-APR "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #105 *** EOOH *** Date: 27 APR 1981 0722-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #105 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Monday, 27 Apr 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 105 Today's Topics: SF Events - NCC 1981, SF Books - Comics (new Superman-Spiderman teamup) & Budrys Book Column (Expanded Universe and Federation and The Many-Colored Land and Fahrenheit 451 and Childhood's End) & Cyber-SF Project ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 25 Apr 1981 (Saturday) 1621-EDT From: DREIFU at WHARTON-10 (Henry Dreifus) Subject: NCC'81 How many people are planning to attend? I am planning to go, perhaps we can meet one another at NCC? I shall be there Wed and Thur (at least I am planning as such). I guess we should (one person) put a thing on the MSG board (in big letters) for HUMAN-NETS people or something to draw attention to the interesting things. Let me know what y'all think. /Hank [ Everyone planning to meet at NCC '81 should please take care not to mention SF-LOVERS, HUMAN-NETS, or any of the Large Mailing Lists directly in any form whatsoever. To do so would violate the security of these lists, threatening their existence. Rather, it has proved effective at past conventions to simply post notices directing people to DREIFU@WHARTON-10, LLOYD@AI, or DUFFEY's group. Please take care to be cryptic so that people who do not know about the Large Lists will remain ignorant. - Jim ] ------------------------------ LLOYD@MIT-AI 04/25/81 23:17:52 Re: NCC '81 I will be running the Alanthus Booth at NCC about half a day each day. Please drop by and say hello, or leave a message for other ARPAphreaks. I will have four Convergent Technologies systems in the booth and will allow people to store messages. Brian Lloyd ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 1981 2052-EST From: Steven J. Zeve Subject: new superman-spiderman teamup For those of you interested in comic books, there is a new Superman-Spiderman teamup comic coming out from Marvel soon. The book is one of those "Marvel Treasury Edition" things (you know seven feet high by five feet wide, and awkward as hell to hold) for $2.50. As an added incentive it guest stars (in alphabetical order): Dr. Doom Hulk Parasite Wonder Woman. I'm not revealing anything by telling this: all these people are shown on either the front or back cover. In addition there are a lot of the regular characters from both the Superman and the Spiderman series. As comic books go this was fairly good. I found the book to be decently written and drawn. The only thing that really bothered me about the book was the implication that the Marvel universe is the same universe as the DC universe. While this isn't impossible, it certainly is improbable. There simply isn't any evidence anywhere the visible section of either universe (aside from this Superman-Spiderman team up and the last one in 1976) to support the idea. Consider some of the evidence against it: 1) There has never been any evidence for the triple city of New York/Metropolis/Gotham. 2) There has never been any evidence of DC heroes meeting Marvel heroes in any fashion. This is quite strange considering the obvious tendency of superheroes to get together whenever possible. 3) There has never been any evidence in either universe of the impact of the other universe's characters on history. In each universe there have been characters that have had a major impact on history, consider Captain America for example. Hmm, I seem to be diverging from my original intention here. I think I'll quit now before I diverge too far. steve z. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 1981 2331-PST From: Mclure at SRI-AI Subject: sf column A REGULAR SCIENCE FICTION column By Algis Budrys (c) 1981 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service) Would you consider buying a book just because I asked you to? It's called ''Expanded Universe'' and is written by Robert A. Heinlein. It will make you angry and depressed. That's because it's about the real world of today. Heinlein of course is the grand old man of speculative fiction (a term he invented, as part of a critical construct which is the only useful way of talking intelligently about ''science fiction''). And in this book are a handful of his short stories; some of them, like ''Solution Unsatisfactory'' and ''Blowups Happen'' are classics from pre-Atomic Age days. They're classics in part because they exactly predicted the political situations that would occur if the United States ever attained civilian and military nuclear technology. What Heinlein has been throughout his life is a political philosopher; the stories that made him famous are only a by-product of his observations and analyses. The latter have also been expressed over the years in essays and speeches. Many of these are included in this volume, which is an expansion of his 1966 collection, ''The Worlds of Robert A. Heinlein.'' It contains the fruit of a half a century of looking at the world with a jaundiced eye, predicting both the wonders and the travels that would result from trends clearly visible to him and of being borne out by events a remarkable percentage of the time. His ideas of how to write a popular article apparently were formed in a 1928 locker-room bull session, and this probably accounts for why many people who regard him as a master fiction craftsman either ignore his nonfiction or merely skim it. It's worth the effort to push past that. If you have ever detected anything the least bit wrong with the U.S. educational system, the military, the government in general, or the value of the dollar...on these he may not always be right, but he's been right a hell of a lot oftener than Jeane Dixon has. I don't know what the heck should be done with Ace Books' proofreaders. One of the hidden scandals of contemporary publishing is that the audience often gets only a rough idea of what the author intended. But Ace is notable even in that company, and ''Federation'' ($5.95 trade paperback) represents the acme of their ability to miss homonyms and other plausible errors, in addition to outright typographical scrambles. Nevertheless, this collection of novelettes by H. Beam Piper, a neglected master from the 1950s, will open your eyes to the fact that we lost somebody particularly insightful and effective when he took his own life. Gloomy? Feel out of place? Try the Pliocene; six million years in the past, no pollution, no taxes, equable climate. Climb into your Guderian Effect one-way time machine and bid adieu forever to Ring Around the Collar. This is precisely what a large and varied cast of social misfits and brokenhearted lovers do in ''The Many-Colored Land'' (Houghton Mifflin, $12.95), an epic by ''Julian May,'' who was Judy May Dikty many years ago when based in Chicago. It's half of what will be a two-part panorama from the author of a famous novel, ''Dune Roller'' (1951). Since then, she has been largely silent to SF audiences, having moved to the Pacific Northwest and, obviously, having learned a great deal of paleoanthropology and even more than she knew before about how to weave a web of plot and counterplot against a fascinating background. As one incidental effect of her saga, we also get an explanation for elves, gnomes, werewolves and Celtic mythology. Go to it-it's an SF adventure novel on a grand scale. For your basic library: The Del Rey Books ''Gold Seal'' reprint series of trade paperbacks, at $5.95 each. The first two titles are Ray Bradbury's ''Fahrenheit 451'' and Arthur C. Clarke's ''Childhood's End.'' Beautifully produced, with intelligence and taste, this series will embody ''major works of imaginative fiction that have become modern literary classics,'' to quote the cover blurb. Exactly so. Topflight prose in the best paperback packages I've seen in years. Cheer up-it's not all going to hell; nothing's ever a 100 percent success. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 1981 at 2331-CST From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 ^^^^^^^^^^^^ CYBER-SF PROJECT: TRICKY DISTINCTIONS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ The reason we have tried to set up our TYPES of 'cybernetic' devices before firmly defining them is that it was pretty obvious that any merely "theoretical" definition was going to leak like a sieve. After all, we weren't even dealing with the real universe, where definitions and distinctions are often tricky enough to make, but a universe of the imagination-- a universe of MANY imaginations. From the various definitions cited in an earlier message, the most useful criteria in distinguishing ROBOTS from COMPUTERS have been differences in mobility and function-- To quote the salient sections of the definitions in that message-- Computer = an automatic electronic machine for performing calcu- lations and for storing and processing information. Robot = a mobile machine system made of nonbiological materials such as metal, plastic, and electronic devices. It may be self-controlled (have its computer within), remotely controlled (have its computer somewhere else), or an intermediate machine, with the robot being partly self- activated and partly remotely controlled. The robot grew out of the original desire to produce a mechan- ical servant. The computer,...out of the need to have a fault- less and speedy calculator. If one sets up a 2-way distinction, the overwhelming majority of SF robots and computers fall neatly into 2 slots. servant-like | calculator-like ________________________________ | | | (self-)| ROBOTS | | mobile | | ? #1 | _______|______________|_________________| | | | non- | | COMPUTERS | mobile | ? #2 | | |______________|_________________| "Servant-like" and "calculator-like" are, of course, but rough approximations to bridge between the wording of the borrowed definitions and the cy-devices as they occur in SF. Wordier but better would be something like "designed to perform a primarily physical service" and "designed primarily to store/process data". It's when the cy-device doesn't fit neatly on the grid that the fun begins. Take C-3PO for instance. As a "protocol 'droid" his primary function was information handling. He falls into the #1 query slot. Is mobility more important than function? (Maybe in such a case we should use humanoid shape as additional evidence.) But if so, what about a very frequent cy-device, the "computer" generally sentient, which operates a spaceship? Not just a navigational computer, but a BIGGIE that also takes care of communications, life-support, etc., etc.. In its smaller world, it is fully comparable to a computer that manages a colony or domed-city. Yet it is certainly mobile! "Designed primarily to store/process data", slippery as it is, still leaves us open to challenge in situations where data is processed by a computer to properly implement service-like operations. In TESB, Luke suspended in the bacta vat is under the care of a medical robot. But what if it was done by a computer? Box-like or otherwise non-humanoid medical cy-devices are not all that rare in SF. And it is surely more appropriate to say they perform a service than just say they process data. Fortunately, medical cy-devices haven't yet posed many problems. I was just using that because the SW example would be well-known. But there IS a cy-device that has me tied in knots-- automatic kitchens. And they seem to be cropping up all over the place, even sentient ones, as in Simak's THE WEREWOLF PRINCIPLE. (Ron Goulart even has a sentient coffee-pot!) In Mack Reynolds' books, people put favorite receipes in the culinary data-base used by the cy-device that handles the catering for multi- thousand-resident apartment buildings. That sounds computerish, all right, and the automated kitchens (unlike robo-chefs-- yes, there are \those/, too) are also immobile. Culinary (and medical) cy-devices are #2 Queries-- +service, -mobile. And then there is "portability" as opposed to "mobility". (Miniturization is rampant in SF as well as in the real world!) That coffee-pot of Goulart's, for instance, isn't all that much different from a robo-serving-cart. Nor the automatic kitchen from a mobile robo-bar. And, if I recall correctly from Daley's HAN SOLO AT STAR'S END that Blue Max's functions are primarily data related, isn't he a portable computer rather than a robot? Actually, I do have some semi-tentative views about the tricky situations described here. But before making any final decision it seemed a good time to get opinions from some very knowledgeable consultants, y'all out there on SF-LOVERS. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Summary-line: 29-APR "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #106 *** EOOH *** Date: 29 APR 1981 0722-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #106 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Wednesday, 29 Apr 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 106 Today's Topics: Administrativia - No Missing Digest, SF Lovers - SFL and the Deaf, SF Books - Cliff Notes on Asimov & Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy and The Restaurant at the Edge of the Galaxy Known Space ("Down in Flames") & Cyber-SF Project & Comics (The Computers that Saved Metropolis), SF Radio - Beyond the War of the Worlds ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 28 Apr 1980 18:32 PST From: The Moderator Subject: Administrivia - No Missing Digest Due to a lack of material, no Tuesday digest was sent. Thus this is the first digest since the Monday, April 27 issue. Since all digests are consecutively numbered (this is issue 106 of volume 3), it is always possible to determine if you missed an issue. If so, then a message to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST will result in the missing issue being resent to you within a couple of days. Jim ------------------------------ From: ljs at DNGC Date: Mon, 27 Apr 81 07:31-EDT Subject: SF-Lovers for Deaf Users I find some digests of SF-Lovers some interesting but I feel bad because this system is unfair to all of us, the deaf users. We could not listen to such audio systems (radio, for example). I feel SF Lovers are discriminating against Deaf Population. Cannot you all suppose if you live in that world that has none of such audio features, how could you listen? Maybe by telepathy? Maybe, there is a world where the deaf population is a majority. We would look at hearing community as disabled group. Let's face this problem and try to use some of SF features to help deaf users enjoy listening to SF digests visibility. Louis ------------------------------ Date: 27 APR 1981 1157-EDT From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: finally?!? Come on! There have been trots covering pieces of SF for over a decade now (although a whole pamphlet devoted to one work came a bit later than the ones covering the dozen popular/respectable pieces). The only reason it took so long to do one on Asimov is that he is neither popular with the semiliterate young (as were STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND and DUNE, to pick obvious examples) or possessed of a gloss of academic respectability (whether or not the gloss had anything to do with the work--\videt/ THE LEFT HAND OF DARKNESS, for instance). ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 1981 1145-EDT From: Rich Schneider Subject: Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy When 'BCN (104.1) did HHGttG a few months ago, I scanned all the local SF shops for the book(s) with no luck. Last month the Science Fiction Book Club announced that its members could order HHGttG. ------------------------------ Date: 27 APR 1981 1205-EDT From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: HITCHHIKER books A second one now exists under the title THE RESTAURANT AT THE EDGE OF THE GALAXY. As always in Boston, the best place to look is the Science Fantasy Bookstore on Eliot St. in Harvard Square, right across from the Harvard/Brattle subway terminal. Fortunately for us, such stores now exist (and are usually distinguishable from the comic stores (which outnumber them)) in virtually every large city in this country. Now \there/'s a project for some bright ambitious type: putting together a catalog of SF bookstores so the Traveling Jiants among us can always find something worth reading. Any volunteers? ------------------------------ Date: 1981-4-27-15:56:35.49 From: ALYSON L ABRAMOWITZ Sender: YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO Subject: A delayed Niven Known Space Pointer A while back Cory.dz17 mentioned a fanzine article in which Niven ended Known Space. At that point no one seemed to know more than the fact that it was called "Down in Flames". This past weekend a visiting fan and computer person from Chicago, Dick Smith, was reading my back issues of SF_Lovers and provided an exact pointer to the fanzine in question. "Down in Flames" was published in Trumpet #10. Apparently it's not a story but just a synopsis by Niven about how he'd make the whole thing into a hoax. It was written just before RINGWORLD and contradicts it. Dick promised to copy the article for me. If people are interested in reading it, I may be able to make copies of it for them, too. Certainly Trumpet is loooong out of print and generally unavailable. Alyson ------------------------------ Date: 27 APR 1981 1231-EDT From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: androids/robots: history The term "robot" comes from the Czech word for "servant"; it was first used in Capek's R.U.R. ("Rossum's Universal Robots"), where it was actually applied to what we call androids. I'm not sure where the switchover took place, but Asimov was writing in the late 40's and early 50's about robots that appeared to be human; I'm not familiar with any case in which a constructed-from-minerals (as opposed to grown-from-organics) mobile humanoid sentient artifice was callled an android, though I'm sure such a confusion exists somewhere. I don't recall Burroughs using the term "android" in SYNTHETIC MEN OF MARS, although that's what the synthetic men were, but I'm quite sure the terms were clear and separate by 1960 at the latest. It occurs to me that in the question of servant vs calculator and mobile vs fixed we're leaving out the important factor, which is \\manipulation//. Recall some of the hard-sf writers' societies' definitions of sentient species: talk and build fires (Piper, the Fuzzy books); own language and hands (Heinlein, THE STAR BEAST). Even the ship computers capable of some gross degree of mobility generally don't have the capacity to directly manipulate the environment. This point shows up in "Q.U.R." ("Quinby's Usuform Robots")(a Boucher story which I'm sure was titled in reflection of Capek's piece); because they are all humanoid, robots with single or limited functions are displaying a variety of neuroses involving their unused and/or ineffective features (a coder/decoder just needs a slot and a typer, so the humanoid one takes up dancing and glossolalia; an air traffic controller needs one arm (to punch the buttons on a human-designed console) and a voice, so the other limbs are spasming), so Quinby redesigns them appropriately, to the horror of the monopolists. The common factor in all of his redesigns is that the robots have a greater need to interact with the environment (with the exception of something along the robot-server-cart lines, a device that crawls around planting radio spikes over water sources) than do computers. I also object to the characterization of a protocol 'droid's function as being primarily the management of information. The function of protocol is to replace substance (or its absence) with prescribed forms of behavior; thus a minimal set of taped reflexes would be sufficient for C-3PO. Of course, making him a translator would be a little more complicated, but it would still involve having his brain \mimic/ \the/ \brain/ \of/ \a/ \human/. ------------------------------ MOON@MIT-MC 04/27/81 15:14:25 Re: Beyond the War of the Worlds Contrary to advance billing, this was not done by the BBC but was locally produced by people at WBUR and elsewhere. I thought it was excellent; the War of the Worlds part was pretty standard (and the Orson Welles Mercury Theatre original was much better), but the radio programs and commercials which were being interrupted by news from the Martian landing site in northern New Jersey were the best quasi Firesign Theatre I've heard recently. Did anyone tape it? ------------------------------ Date: 04/27/81 1806-EDT Sender: FOCUS at LL From: John Wakerly [ Roger King (FOCUS@LL) sent in the following submission from John Wakerley, who is currently a faculty member of the Stanford EE department (his major interest is in microcomputing). It will appear in the April 15 issue of Computer Architecture News (ACM SIGARCH Newsletter). Thanks are due both John (for writing this review) and Roger (for forwarding it to us). - Jim ] THE COMPUTERS THAT SAVED METROPOLIS, by DC Comics and Radio Shack, July 1980 Reviewed by John Wakerly Yes, this book is a Superman comic book. It is worth reviewing for three reasons: (1) It is probably the first comic book on computers; (2) It is amusing; (3) It contains some misconceptions about computers and programming. THE PLOT The opening scene: The villain, Major Disaster, is about strike Metropolis with a Crowning Catastrophe... Meanwhile, Superman visits a sixth-grade classroom to give a lecture on the origins of modern computers. He brings with him two TRS-80 microcomputers. The students are just about to begin some practice programming when Superman is called away on an emergency... A giant tornado has hit Metropolis, and Superman neutralizes it with a blast of super-breath. Unfortunately, in doing so he inhales millions of microscopic Kryptonite crystals released by Major Disaster... Returning to the classroom, Superman finds that the TRS-80 can compute the circumference of a circle faster than he can -- the Kryptonite has "fuzzed" his brain and nervous system... Superman needs a computer to aid his fuzzy logic. Unfortunately, Major Disaster has engineered a breakdown of all of the major computer systems in Metropolis. However, Major Disaster had no way of knowing about the two TRS-80s on loan to the sixth-grade class... Superman sets up a radio link to the sixth-graders and their TRS-80s. When the next disaster strikes, he will be ready... A jetliner has been hit by a lightning bolt, and it is going down. Superman flies to the rescue, but doesn't have enough brain power to compute an interception trajectory. He radios to the kids: "The jetliner is plummeting on a 44 degree downward course at 505 miles per hour and gravity is pulling down at 32 feet per second! In addition, the thunderstorm is whipping up a powerful wind toward me at 63 miles per hour! What I need to know is, how fast should I fly to compensate for the wind and still reach the jetliner before it crashes to the ground?" The sixth graders enter their programs with the information and give the results to Superman a moment later -- the jetliner is saved. Later, the kids avert a flood by computing the amount of heat vision needed to evaporate six million gallons of water, and they avert a nuclear disaster by computing how fast Superman should fly to send a cloud of radioactive gases spiralling up to space. Major Disaster is captured, and Superman and the kids go on TV to tell the world how they couldn't have done it without the very latest computer technology. COMMENT The purpose of this comic book apparently is to give children a brief and entertaining introduction to the capabilities and advantages of microcomputers. As a comic book, it contains a mixture of fantasy and fact. In reading such a book, we can accept some fantasies. Easiest to swallow are the notions of Superman, Metropolis, arch-villains, and so on. Getting closer to the facts of problem solving, we might also accept the grossly oversimplified problem statements and input data that are given to the sixth graders for each computation; we assume that other essential details were left out of the narrative for simplicity. Going even further, we might even assume that the sixth-graders are geniuses with deep knowledge of physics, aerodynamics, and other fields required to formulate algorithms to solve the given problems. But there is no way to accept the comic book's total, indeed fantastic, disregard of the time and effort needed to program a solution to a complex problem. The comic book is very ambiguous about how the kids "enter their programs with the information." Do they enter the information into a previously written application program supplied by Radio Shack? Probably not, since saving jetliners is a fairly specialized application. More likely, the kids write programs from scratch and enter them into the computer. Of course, the idea that anyone could write and debug a complex program in the few minutes attributed to these sixth graders is preposterous. Promoting such a misconception about the cost and effort of programming is a great disservice to potential computer users. Possibly on the positive side, the kids use two identical TRS-80 systems to compute their results. This approach is presented so as to increase the reader's confidence in using computers to solve life-threatening problems. Obviously, this approach guards against hardware errors (rare in very small systems such as these). On the other hand, the comic book is quite specific in stating that the two TRS-80s run identical programs, and so we have no protection from incorrect algorithms or other programming errors (widespread in any computer system). It's too bad that Major Disaster went to such lengths to create his "Crowning Catastrophe." He need have looked no further than Intel president Andrew S. Grove's dire prediction that one million programmers may be needed by 1990 to program all the computers that we are capable of producing. He calls this the "Programmer Catastrophe"! Naturally, we don't expect computer retailers to use a comic book approach to sell their wares. But both retailers and users have been known to ignore the software problem, to their later dismay. In conclusion, The Computers That Saved Metropolis makes interesting reading, if you keep in mind that it contains some computer fantasies in addition to Kryptonite, X-ray vision, and men who fly. It's good reading for graduate students, and it's available free from Radio Shack, Advertising Department, 1300 One Tandy Center, Fort Worth, Texas 76102. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Summary-line: 30-APR "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #107 *** EOOH *** Date: 30 APR 1981 0722-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #107 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Thursday, 30 Apr 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 107 Today's Topics: SF Lovers - Hacking with SF-LOVERS & SFL and the Deaf, SF Books - Comics (The Computers that Saved Metropolis) & God Emperor of DUNE, SF Movies - Escape to New York & SF for the South Bay Area ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 28 April 1981 19:29 edt From: Schauble.Multics at MIT-Multics Subject: Hacking with SF-Lovers This last Loscon, I was talking to someone about the problems with implementing Emacs on a CDC NOS system. I can't recall who it was. If whoever it was remembers the conversation, would you please mail back to me. Thanks, Paul ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 1981 08:31:58-PDT From: CSVAX.presotto at Berkeley Subject: computer comix Radio Shack's "TRS-80 whiz kids" is not the first ridiculous computer comic. The "Captain Zilog" comix from, of course, Zilog predate it. In CZ the \hero/ is a mild mannered silicon gulch worker who is secretly a Captain America analog (excuse the pun). The episodes are silly to say the least. The bad guys in one episode shrink down to micro size to sabotage a Zilog chip (I believe it was an 8000). However CZ (and female companion) also shrink down and thwart them. Scenes with the faceless general purpose registers beating up the bad guys, a context switch sweeping the bad guys down the tubes, security guards hanging around the chip and people waiting to get on the "bus" were particularly amusing. dave P.S. Unlike the TRS-80 whiz kids/superman Captain Zilog is aimed at people who know the buzz words of computer science. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 1981 0927-PDT From: Tom Wadlow Subject: Superman/machine interfaces Somehow, I think that the following, much more realistic, dialogue would have made a considerably shorter and less interesting comic book: Superman: Hurry, kids! I need those interception trajectory figures to save the jetliner!! 6th-Grader: Gee, Superman. It says "%ILLEGAL INSTRUCTION AT USER PC 163504" Superman: Ooops!! Oh well.....never mind. ------------------------------ DP@MIT-ML 04/29/81 19:23:50 Re: Computer Comix. The superman book is by no means the first computer comix. It is not even the first to give a realistic view of the beasts. An example would be CPU Wars. This book was written by a former Dec type, and details the battle between IPM (the Impossible to Program Machines) and HEC (the Human Equipment Corp). It is full of in jokes, etc about conditions in Barnyard Ma. and people on the VEX development team. If people want a copy, drop me a line or talk to Chas Andres, the author and artist who is now working at System Industries in silicon gulch somewhere. (Dec got a little upset at his using decus to sell the thing so he went elsewhere) Enjoy, Jeff ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 1981 1455-PDT (Wednesday) From: Mike at UCLA-SECURITY (Michael Urban) Subject: SF and the Deaf Well, I think the charge of "discrimination" is a bit strong. While I certainly feel "left out" when all these discussions of radio programs and other events on the East Coast take place, I don't feel that I am "discriminated" against as a West-Coast type. In a society in which the vast majority of people were born deaf, I suspect that hearing types wouldn't be considered handicapped; however, we might have a VERY frustrating time attempting to convince others of the existence of this sense! It's also fun to speculate on how well we'd be able to use that sense in a civilization that provides no stimuli and feedback for it. While it might end up looking a bit too much like propaganda for ESP research, it sounds like there's a good story in there. Or has someone already written it? Mike ------------------------------ Date: 29-Apr-81 11:51:41 PDT (Wednesday) From: Hamilton.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: "discrimination" Good grief! So most of us aren't deaf. \Big deal./ Most of us also don't live in Boston, or LA, or any other single city you care to pick. Many of us haven't seen Excalibur, or read Niven's "Known Space", or ... SO WHAT? SFL is an appropriate forum for addressing any SF topic or transmitting any SF-related info that, say, at least 10 or 15% of us might be interested in. I'm sick and tired of hearing cries of "discrimination" directed at any system which attempts to address more than the lowest common denominator of human experience. Should we limit SFL to topics that could be appreciated by a quadriplegic version of Hellen Keller? But even Hellen Keller knew about Love in a way that most of us haven't experienced. The intersection of all human experience is very close to the empty set. The union is much more interesting. The Soviet Union is a good case study of what happens when a society claims to be based on equality of result, as opposed to equality of opportunity. The worker has to be careful not to produce over his quota, or he will raise management expectations and bring down cries of "discrimination" from those less able to produce. The only times when the Soviets have succeeded has been when they tacitly abandoned the insane quest for equality of result and established special institutes for those with special talents. The areas of discussion in SFL in which the deaf have been implicitly excluded is by far exceeded by areas in which people have been excluded by geography or institutional background. Perhaps you would require the moderator to insert warnings before each msg? "The following msg is only of interest to non-deaf at MIT..." This would get ridiculous pretty quickly. --Bruce ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 1981 1843-PDT From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE Subject: discrimination Sfl is a voluntary group devoted to science fiction in all forms. There is no validity to the charge that sfl discriminates against deaf people, anyway. It is true that we do not discriminate against the spoken word; it is also true that we discriminate (make a distinction) between sf and say, medieval history, in favor of the former. --cat ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 1981 2138-PDT From: Stuart McLure Cracraft Subject: dune review By JOHN LEONARD c. 1981 N.Y. Times News Service GOD EMPEROR OF DUNE. By Frank Herbert. 411 pages. Putnam. $12.95. There are some of us who feel that Frank Herbert should never have written a sequel to ''Dune,'' much less three of them. ''Dune,'' given Herbert's talents and limitations, was just about a perfect science fiction, as well as a lecture on ecology. The desert planet, the giant sand worms, the blue-eyed Fremen, the water suits, the narcotic spice, the God-making, the witches, the telepathy and the prescience - how could they have been improved upon? And they haven't been, not in ''Dune Messiah,'' in ''Children of Dune'' or in ''God Emperor of Dune.'' Some of us, however, are outnumbered by hundreds of thousands of readers who insist on a ''Dune'' redux every five years or so. ''God Emperor of Dune'' has already reached the best-seller lists. Herbert is the prisoner of a cult, his own Leto. I suspect he would prefer to branch out and risk something else, as he did in ''The Green Brain,'' ''Whipping Star,'' ''The Dosadi Experiment'' and other novels that have not been nearly so successful as the ''Dune'' retreads. His cult won't let him. Conan Doyle faced the same problem - Sherlock Holmes was not allowed to die - and, like Herbert, caved in. It is a convention among reviewers of sequels, to suggest that the latest edition can be read by the innocent without reference to any earlier crime. I can't observe that convention. To read ''God Emperor of Dune'' without having read its great-grandfather is like meeting Anastasia when you are totally ignorant of Russian history; the glamour is missing. Herbert depends on ideas for his imaginative effects; his prose has seldom roused itself to sing, and his characters tend to stand around like mailboxes full of mysterious profundities in sealed envelopes, waiting for the weather to change for the worst. What's more, he is very serious. There is, by my count, a single conscious joke in ''God Emperor of Dune.'' The Ixian ambassadoress, a sort of reverse clone designed to appeal to Leto 2d, explains: ''I never thought it would be easy to serve God; I just didn't think it would be this hard.'' But if you haven't read those first three novels, you won't find that funny. Leto 2d has been around for thousands of years. He is made up of his ancestors, male and female, who go all the way back to the House of Atreus. (Herbert specializes in Greek myths, comparative religion and Shakespeare.) He finds it hard to run an intergalactic empire without getting bored, and he is genuinely worried about the future of human beings. Human beings, he thinks, require chance and challenge and randomness. He knows so much that he must subvert himself for the good of the race. Without giving too much plot away - which would be difficult, because Herbert is so prodigal with plot that he would embarrass a Robert Ludlum - I will say only that Leto 2d is turning himself into a sand worm. Upon his metamorphosis, the desert will return to Dune. Like the Greeks, he invents gods. Like Machiavelli, in Isaiah Berlin's magnificent essay, he dreams of the return of a perfect Roman Republic; think of how much nostalgia a 3,000-year-old god must endure, even as he turns into a worm. He schemes at chance. He invites rebellion. He longs for a surprise. He orders historians burned on pyres of their own published works, because they have missed the metaphysical point. He confides the truth to journals that will become the sacred texts of later generations. He fiddles with genetic engineering. He will be both the leader and the ''outsider'' who threatens leadership. An observer decides that he is ''both the storm and the ship.'' He seeks what Herbert calls ''Siaynoq,'' which is a combination of sincerity, light, fermentation, naming, mystery and prestige. He would ''dampen the pendulum.'' And he talks like this: ''But the tripod upon which Eternity swings is composed of flesh and thought and emotion.'' Deny thought and ''we lose the powers of reflection; we cannot define what our senses report.'' Deny the flesh, and ''we unwheel the vehicle which bears us.'' Deny emotion, and ''we lose all touch with our internal universe.'' This is the emperor god who has the nerve to call the music of Mozart ''pretentious.'' The inevitable Duncan arises once more from the chemical tank. The Face Dancers are once again routed. The Guild is running out of melange-spice, but the Ixians are working on a computer, which is of course a graven image. The Golden Path will be preserved. And none of this will mean much to anyone who isn't already addicted to ''Dune'' mythology. I admit my addiction, even while wishing that Herbert didn't try so hard to be a poet and a philosopher. He does go on about what Marx called the Asiatic mode of production, and he can't resist sounding like a Brutus with a tin ear, and his whole notion of leadership and uniforms and the elite female palace guard of ''Fish Speakers'' smacks of an unintentional and undigested fascism, anarchy for the fun of it. Blue eyes will ride sand worms across the desert into freedom. When you can visit the past, guess the future, read minds and live for 3,000 years, it is easy to suffer. The rest of us are bookworms. ------------------------------ Date: 29 APR 1981 0956-PDT From: RODOF at USC-ECL Subject: Another of RODOF's famous trailer reviews I have made mention before of my theories concerning trailers; i.e., that a good trailer does not always mean a good movie (Popeye) but a bad trailer usually can be counted upon to mean a movie at least lacking in places (Excalibur, Magic). Last week I saw the trailer of Escape to New York, the new film by John Carpenter, starring Kurt Russell. Understand that I have never thought much of Russell, and the only Carpenter film I've seen was Dark Star, but still, I was impressed. The premise, of course, sounds idiotic -- NYC got so crime-ridden that the US just walled it off and dumps criminals in there to sink or swim -- but Carpenter was never known for complex plots. What he IS well known for is snappy direction and visual excitement, and if the movie is as well-edited and photographed as the trailer, it should be a flick with a lot of pizazz. Everybody, including Disney-boy Russell, looks dirty and ugly and rough, and the music (if they use the same music) was nicely tension producing, as was the sound. Watching the trailer, I was reminded a great deal of The Warriors, and thus I think that if Warrior-type flix are what you are into, this movie should be pretty good. If you prefer complex plots with rational progressions or even reasonably lucid dialogue, mebbe not. Have to wait till the film itself is out to be sure. Rodof ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 1981 2218-PST From: Jim McGrath Subject: SF Movies for the South Bay Area Those of you who live in the Stanford (i.e. South Bay) area should be interested in knowing that the following movies will be playing at the New Varsity theatre (456 University Ave in Palo Alto) during May. Thursday and Friday, April 30 and May 1 Flesh Gordon (7:30, 10:20) and Dark Star (8:45) Saturday and Sunday, May 2 and 3 Flash Gordon (7:30) and Barbarella (9:30) Thurday thru Saturday, May 7, 8, 9 Dr. Strangelove (9:50) Saturday and Sunday, May 16 and 17 Watership Down (9:40) Saturday and Sunday, May 30 and 31 Star Trek: The Motion Picture (7:30) Wizards (9:45) Jim ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Summary-line: 1-MAY "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #108 *** EOOH *** Date: 1 MAY 1981 0722-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #108 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Friday, 1 May 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 108 Today's Topics: SF Books - "Down In Flames" & Cyber-SF, SF Movies - Special Effects, SF TV - The Greatest American Hero, SF Topics - Tacky Science (Green Lantern comics) & SF and the Deaf ("The Country of the Blind" and First Lensman), Misc - UUCP mailing addresses ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 30 Apr 1981 0306-PDT From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE Subject: Down In Flames I'd love to have a copy of the story. --cat [ Please direct all requests for copies of the story "Down in Flames" to Alyson L Abramowitz, who can be reached as ALA@MIT-AI. - Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 1981 at 0019-CDT From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 ^^^^^^^^^^^^ CYBER-SF: MORE ON COMPUTERS vs. ROBOTS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ There was a LOT of meat in Chip's message to help sort out cy-devices! Off hand, I can't think of a good manipulative ship's computer, and comparable city/colony one-- the pair in Dickson's WOLFLING are, as is usual for Gordy, really magical devices-- but both kinds DO manipulate the environment for the humans, and in pretty much the same way. Then there are those culinary cy-devices. Simak's Kitchen in THE WEREWOLF PRINCIPLE is the same kind of chatty character as Goulart's food-preparers; but in Mack Reynolds' stories, there is no sentience, just food coming through hatches in response to dialing or button-punching. Should they all be lumped together as robots? Is there a significant difference between a robot chef and an automated kitchen? I think it's Goulart in NEMO that refers to his sentient cy- device house as a computer. Well and good. But Simak's House in WP is again the same kind of character, and is \mobile/. If manipulatory criteria are added, I guess they come out more robot than computer, by Chip's criterion. But in the "Q.U.R." example, it sounds like the significant factor was humanoid-ness + (presumably) sentience of the group of neurotic robots, in contrast with the non-humanoid, non-sentient robot-server-cart. Don't SF sentient computers sometimes show similar distress at not being "human"? ------------------------------ Date: 29 APR 1981 1258-EDT From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: (Response to message) In response to the message sent 29 Apr 1981 at 0019-CDT from hjjh@UTEXAS-11 The phenomenon of computers distressed at not being "human" shows up occasionally, but not often. I would discard the example of TIME ENOUGH TO SCREW AROUND, as it seems that the computer is mostly after Lazarus' body, like every other female in typical late RAH. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 1981 1504-PDT (Wednesday) From: Mike at UCLA-SECURITY (Michael Urban) Subject: Androids and ? Of course, android comes from a Greek word ("andros"?), and means man-like. Not human-like, but man-like. It seems to me that I've read the corresponding term for a woman-like 'droid, "gynoid", somewhere. An example would be the mechanical femme fatale of "Metropolis". Can anyone remind me of where I've seen "gynoid"? Mike ------------------------------ Date: 30 April 1981 00:10-EST From: Charles E. Haynes Subject: SF-Lovers for Deaf Users I think perhaps you are a bit oversensitive. The msgs regarding radio programs have a limited audience for a variety of reasons, if i get a msg telling about a Boston Radio-a-thon I ignore it (I'm a west coast reader) but I don't complain that non-Bostonians are discriminated against. -- Enjoy! Charles ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 1981 0552-PDT From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE Subject: In the Kingdom of the Blind... I don't recall any stories about a land of deaf people, but there is a story about the Kingdom of the Blind, I think by H.G.Wells, in which a sighted person happens on an isolated community of blind people in the mountains and tries to convince them he has a power of vision. Since I don't want to invoke a spoiler warning, I will just add that I liked it. good reading, --cat [ The story is "The Country of the Blind," which is indeed by H. G. Wells. - Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 1981 11:06 PDT From: Stewart at PARC-MAXC Subject: Discrimination against the hearing Well this is an SF list you know, so. . . Has everyone read "First Lensman" by E. E. Smith? On one occasion, Virgil Samms visits Rigel IV, where everyone has a sense of perception but no hearing. First he gets a ride in a car that has an unmuffled 1000 hp internal combustion engine inside, then someone drops a load of steel plate right behind him. He emerges from the experience quite shaken. The Rigellian's reply: "Atmospheric Vibrations?". ------------------------------ Date: 1981-4-28-23:07:06.68 Sender: YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO From: NIGEL CONLIFFE at VAXWRK at VAX4 Subject: Tacky scientific concepts On the subject of tacky scientific concepts, an old edition of the "Green Lantern" comic book has my vote. Our hero was always vulnerable to YELLOW objects, weapons and other artifacts. But one day, whilst flying along , wreaking havoc on the forces of evil, as was his wont, Green Lantern is struck/affected by a weapon which was not yellow. I think it was bright red, or some such bizarre colour. The explanation, given later in the "story" (sic), was that the bad guys were using an \infra-yellow/ beam which was invisible, but yellow.... That, and the beautiful line from Star Trek "Using the lightspeed breakpoint factor....." Nigel A Conliffe ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 1981 1652-PDT (Tuesday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: LSI-11's and SF effex The latest (April 1981) issue of Digital Equipment Corp's "Insight" newsletter has a nice article and some pictures concerning use of LSI-11's for film special effects. They talk about the systems used at Midocean Motion Pictures (one of the main competitors to Robert Abel and Associates -- my "Star Trek" employers) for creating flashy commercials, logos, special effex, and the like. The system described seemed awful familiar, and it soon was obvious why this was so! The article interviews Ray Feeney, who designed the system and sells them to a variety of firms. Ray was essentially my "boss" at Abel when I was there ... in fact he was the first person from Trekland to call me and pull me into the project. He was also one of the biggest boosters of using Unix and large PDP-11's for the work (which is why I had become involved). However, evil forces (the dark side of the force, in a Star Trek universe?) prevailed, and the project (as far as Abel was concerned), collapsed. I kinda lost touch with Ray, but it's good to see he's still around and still designing quality camera control systems! I recommend the article highly. --Lauren-- ------------------------------ Date: 1981-4-28-11:58:37.39 Sender: YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO From: STEVE LIONEL at STAR at METOO Subject: The Greatest American Hero I must admit that I am surprised that no one has mentioned the latest ABC effort at SF on television. The series is called "The Greatest American Hero" and is on Wednesday nights at 8PM (Eastern time). Pico-review: Delightful! Micro-review: Interesting and well done cross between Spider-man and "Welcome Back, Kotter". Ralph Hanley, a "special-ed" teacher (like Mr. Kotter), is taking his class on a desert field trip, when their bus mysteriously stalls. On his way back to a gas station, Hanley tries flagging down a car only to have to jump out of the way as the car is swerving back and forth and almost hits him. The driver of the car is FBI agent Bill Maxwell (played by veteran G-Man Robert Culp). Maxwell isn't drunk, he suddenly lost control of the car. They're sitting in the car, when a flying saucer appears over the desert near their car (very well done, effects by Magicam). They panic when the car doors self-lock. Then, the car radio comes on and the dial moves quickly back and forth, catching only a word or two at each station. The words form sentences, saying things like "We won't harm you", etc. Anyway, Maxwell's ex-partner, who just died in a shootout, "beams down" from the craft, saying that the aliens picked him up. He has made the aliens aware that something very evil is about to happen on Earth, and they have decided to help out. They are giving Hanley a suit which will give him super-powers. Instructions are included. Maxwell is supposed to guide Hanley and help him out. The partner beams back up and the craft leaves. Maxwell is all shooken up, and takes off without Hanley, who then walks back to the bus, carrying the suit in its case - but the instruction book falls out onto the desert sands. The suit turns out to be bright red, with a black cape. The first episode shows Hanley trying to figure out how the suit works while he's solving the current evil happening. So, you have this normal guy who's suddenly handed uncontrollable super-powers, and the beauty of the show is in the realistic manner in which they portray his struggles to maintain his private life, while not killing himself crashing into buildings, etc. Perhaps the most obvious indication that this is a quality show is the fact that there is NO LAUGH TRACK! Some situations are humorous, indeed, but it is not run as a sit-com. The show is far from perfect; especially in the need for more development of its characters. But, I like it, and have made a special point to make sure I see it each week. Try it, I think you'll like it too. Steve L. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 1981 1320-PDT (Tuesday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: UUCP mailing addresses I've been asked to reply publicly to the question, "can addresses on the Unix UUCP network be replied-to from the arpanet?" The answer is a conditional no. Due to unfortunate administrative circumstances, there is currently no facility for incoming messages to transit between the two nets. This situation is subject to sudden change, however, so stay tuned. Another question concerned delivery times on UUCP. These vary quite widely. Some sites have hardwired links that result in essentially instant delivery, while others are polled on a dialup basis at intervals (perhaps every six hours, or once a day, or...) UUCP is set up so that sites low on funds can arrange to only dial out during off-peak phone rate periods, while others might want to dial out instantly. Since UUCP is store-and-forward, many sites only talk directly to ONE other site, depending on that site to move the mail onward toward its final destination. --Lauren-- ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Summary-line: 2-MAY "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #109 *** EOOH *** Date: 2 MAY 1981 0722-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #109 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Saturday, 2 May 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 109 Today's Topics: SF Fandom - Ellison in New York, SF Books - Sunfall & Magic Labyrinth & The Jupiter Theft & HHGttG & Computer Comics & Bookstores & Cyber-SF, SF Movies - Star Wars (Secrecy and TESB), SF TV - Network Additions and Deletions, SF Topics - SF and the Deaf ("Persistence of Vision") ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 Apr 1981 (Wednesday) 2256-EST From: DYER at NBS-10 Subject: New C. J. Cherryh collection C. J. Cherryh has a new one out in paperback. SUNFALL (158pp, $2.25) has advertising on the back cover that seems to suggest it is a complete (albeit short) novel. On closer examination the book turns out to consist of six short stories all related to a common theme of 'cities of the distant future.' Caveat emptor. [Also, if you decide to buy this book, watch out for the quality of the glue in the binding -- a lot of the copies I saw looked as if the binding might crack after a couple of readings.] nano-review -- The three stories I've had time to read so far have all involved 1) Death, 2) Despair and 3) Treachery in various mixtures and flavors. This is probably not a good book to read if you are feeling suicidal &/or depressed. On the other hand, these are the first \short stories/ I've seen written by C. J. Cherryh (after 11+ novels, is she slowing down?) so its a unique work in that respect, I guess. I would recommend it. Has Cherryh published any other short stories (say, in Analog)? -Landon- ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 1981 (Thursday) 1126-PST From: DWS at LLL-MFE This may not be news, but Farmer's "Magic Labyrinth" is now out in paperback. I picked up a copy at Cody's in Berkeley yesterday. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 1981 0838-EDT From: LITTAUER at BBNE Subject: Books: Moffitt, The Jupiter Theft I've just finished rereading this magnificent book, and I am wondering whether anyone can point me at more of the same. I don't know how many of you have read this book, probably not many, as the cover & blurb were as bad as any I have ever seen on a good book. Moffitt's science is real (at least to the amateur scientist), his aliens are up there with the best of them, and he has a good plot, besides. If I've already missed the discussion of this work in an earlier volume, tell me where I can find it; if not, read the book and tell me what you think. Ben ------------------------------ Date: 30 April 1981 2129-edt From: RHarvey at MIT-Multics Subject: HHGttG Paperback The U.S. version of the HHGttG is a rip-off in that it doesn't have ''Don't Panic'' in large and friendly letters printed on the cover. The copy that I have (paperback) was published in the U.K. and does have this important advice. I hope you are all enjoying this series - I have heard all 12 several times so far and can only say that each time they are better. ------------------------------ Date: 1 May 1981 05:51:04-PDT From: decvax!duke!unc!tyg at Berkeley Subject: Computer comix While to my knowledge only those already mentioned comix deal primarily with 'puters, for years comix have contained computers in the stories. Hysterically inaccurate, yes, but in there. For example Deathlok which Marvel did in the mid '70s was about a cyborg with a part computer brain. Androids and robots with sentience include Computo, Ultron, the Vision, Jocasta, and the Red Tornado(version 2). Also, some Legion of Super-Heroes adventures used to have Brainiac 5 beat computers at chess constantly. Also, the previously mentioned Spider-Man Superman teamup contains a scene where Spidey makes a lucky guess to shut off a computer. Tom Galloway ------------------------------ Date: 1 May 1981 05:59:34-PDT From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley Subject: Comics and Computers Slightly off the topic, there is a children's book, "Katie and the Computer," about a little girl's adventures after she falls into her father's home system. It's written by a graduate student here at UNC, and is a reasonably accurate (albeit metaphorical) description of how a computer works, i.e., there are 3 large cannons filled with red, green, and blue paint: the color guns. And the suspense comes in when Katie and the Colonel meet the hideous Bug.... ------------------------------ Date: 1 May 1981 05:48:30-PDT From: decvax!duke!unc!tyg at Berkeley Subject: SF Bookstores Here in Chapel Hill, NC we've got the Foundation Bookstore devoted to SF, fantasy and comics and art (roughly equal emphasis). Does anyone know if Yale U. is hooked up to the net in some form or fashion? ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 1981 at 2012-CDT From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 Subject: Revised version of most recent message... ^^^^^^^^^^^^ CYBER-SF: MORE ON COMPUTERS vs. ROBOTS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ There was a LOT of meat in Chip's message to help sort out cy-devices! Off hand, I can't think of a good manipulative ship's computer, and comparable city/colony one-- the pair in Dickson's WOLFLING are, as is usual for Gordy, really magical devices-- but both kinds DO manipulate the environment for the humans, and in pretty much the same way. Actually, there seems rather a continuum in DEGREE rather than in kind of environment manipulation, from universe-managing computers, down thru galaxy-, planet-, city-, ship-, to house- managing ones. Then there are those culinary cy-devices. Simak's Kitchen in THE WEREWOLF PRINCIPLE is the same kind of chatty character as Goulart's food-preparers; but in Mack Reynolds' stories, there is no sentience, just food coming through hatches in response to dialing or button-punching. Should they all be lumped together as robots? Is there a significant difference between a robot chef and an automated kitchen? I think it's Goulart in NEMO that refers to his sentient cy- device house as a computer. Well and good. But Simak's House in WP is again the same kind of character, and is \mobile/. If manipulatory criteria are added, I guess they come out more robot than computer, by Chip's criterion. And I seem to recall that Goulart uses 'android' for "construc- ted-from-minerals[-and- plastic] (as opposed to grown-from- organics)" cy-devices that are particularly humanoid (like Otho in Capt. Future?), while a metallic one even as humanoid as C-3PO would be referred to as a 'robot' by Goulart.) But in the "Q.U.R." example, it sounds like the significant factor was humanoid-ness + (presumably) sentience of the group of neurotic robots, in contrast with the non-humanoid, non-sentient robot-server-cart. Don't SF sentient computers sometimes show similar distress at not being "human"? ------------------------------ Date: 1 May 1981 09:26 PDT From: Weissman at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: Androids and ? Back when I was a kid reading SF/Movie magazines, the mechanical female-like thing in "Metropolis" was always referred to in those magazines as a "robotrix". I have no idea where the "-rix" comes from; the only other example I can think of is "aviatrix" (which is almost exclusively used to describe Amelia Erhardt). -- Bob ------------------------------ Date: 1 May 1981 1126-PDT From: First@SUMEX-AIM Subject: The Ego That Ate New York. Harlan Ellison, the Ayatollah Khomeni of Science Fiction, was in New York City this week to plug his new book "Shatterday" and his other consuming interest, i.e. himself. Not content merely to banter with leading NY intellectual light Tom Snyder, to autograph his works (hard-cover copies only, please) or to dispense pithy nuggets of wisdom to eager fans, he proved his muse to be eternally on-line by composing a new short story in the show window of the B. Dalton Bookstore on Fifth Avenue. To guarantee that he did not simply retype a previously composed story, he based the piece on an image suggested by a person at the scene. Rapt SF fans gazed reverently at their god in the throes of creation, but most New Yorkers didn't seem to give a second thought to the short middle-aged man typing behind the glass. Ellison claimed that he had written five pages before he knew where the story was going. Rumor has it that sometime next week Isaac Asimov and Carl Sagan will hold a spelling bee in the lingerie department of Bloomingdale's to determine once and for all who is the true spokesman for the American scientific community. --Arthur Einhorn (via Michael First) ------------------------------ Date: 29 April 1981 2217-EDT (Wednesday) From: Lee.Moore at CMU-10A Subject: secrecy and TESB The following story was told to me by an employee of Lucasfilm. I don't know how well it has gotten around. Shortly before the opening of TESB a video tape arrived in the mail for George Lucas. It contained what might be called the first re-make of TESB. On the tape was the story as done by high-school students who got the story from rummaging through trashcans for pages of scripts and old storyboards. Needless to say Lucas was somewhat worried. Lucasfilm now employs the use of paper shredders. As for the next film, Lucas has pulled together funding for it. Live action shooting will begin next January. Lucas will be doing this script personally (like pt IV) because of problems with the script of TESB. (Leigh Brackett dying after the first draft didn't help.) I too was told that Lucas has read the SF-Lovers mail pertaining to SW. Lee ------------------------------ Date: 1 May 1981 22:08-EDT From: James A. Cox Subject: SF on TV According to the N.Y. Times, NBC will finally allow "Buck Rogers in the Twenty-fifth Century" to die a well-deserved death; it is dropping the series from its fall line-up. However, they're adding another series called "Star Prince," which is "a drama about a 16-year-old from another planet, blessed with supernatural powers and trying to lead a normal teen-age life." This promises to be, well, interesting, to say the least. In addition, CBS will drop "The Incredible Hulk." The other two networks are not now planning any new SF series. However, ABC will show "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" and "Superman" sometime this next season. NBC is does not now have any SF theatrical movies to show this season, and CBS has not released its list yet. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 1981 1821-PDT From: Zellich at OFFICE-3 (Rich Zellich) Subject: Re: SF and the Deaf In response to the message sent 29 Apr 1981 1455-PDT (Wednesday) from Mike@UCLA-SECURITY (Mike Urban) Well, there's one story where agents from a "normal" hearing society are sent undercover to a planet where none of the human-type population, or even any of the animals, have ears (or any other sound- sensory apparatus). I just did a fast run through my collection, and can't find it (naturally I don't remember the title or author). This probably means it is in an anthology, or possibly serialized in Analog within the last 10 years - sorry I can't pin it down better - if I could, I'd pull it out and reread it...one of these days I just *gotta* get my library indexed online. Cheers, Rich ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 1981 2048-PDT From: Stuart McLure Cracraft Subject: SF/deaf The most obvious example I can think of is Varley's Persistence of Vision short story, although the people in that are also blind. ------------------------------ Date: 1 May 1981 1016-PDT Sender: WMARTIN at OFFICE-3 Subject: SF Story about world of deaf people From: WMartin at Office-3 (Will Martin) I recall reading a story set in a world of the deaf; I can't recall if it was a short story, novella, or novel, but think one of the first two is more likely -- if so, there's a chance it was in a collection titled LAST EARTHS or the like... Anyway, in this tale, deafness was common among the population, and was imposed (surgically, if necessary) upon the "civilized" people (except for royalty), while among the rural peasantry, hearing people were regarded as having a psychic "second sight" or were witches/priest(esses) etc. The story concerns a hearing girl taken by a king to be his mistress by eliminating her husband (or just taking her away). This could be some sort of post-armageddon mutation effect story. I'll try to locate this more precisely over the weekend and send in a follow-up if anything turns up... Will Martin ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Summary-line: 3-MAY "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #110 *** EOOH *** Date: 3 MAY 1981 0722-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #110 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Sunday, 3 May 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 110 Today's Topics: SF Events - Herbert in LA, SF Books - Bookstores & Computer in Children's stories (Danny Dunn and the Homework Machine) & Cyber-SF & Death of the Death Star (Death Beam), SF Topics - SF and the Deaf (Silence is Deadly) & Covered Wagon Stories, Spoiler - Known Space ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 May 1981 1021-PDT From: Craig Milo Rogers Subject: Frank Herbert in LA For Southern California SF Lovers: Frank Herbert will be at A Change Of Hobbit, 1853 Lincoln Blvd, Santa Monica, on Wednesday May 6 from 1600 to 2000. Craig Milo Rogers ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 1981 (Saturday) 1216-EDT From: SHRAGE at WHARTON-10 (Jeffrey Shrager) Subject: Computers in children's stories: Danny Dunn and the Homework Machine Remember our hero, Danny Dunn -- all freckles and red hair? He was that little whizkid who lived with his mother in the home of one Professor Bullfinch [his father had died and his mother was Bullfinch's house keeper]. Anyhow, in this episode Danny and his fellow adventurers stumble upon a [drum roll] computer! MINIAC, described by the prof as "the first midget giant brain", was made possible by the professor's invention of a new, tinier, switch and a thinner magnetic tape [rah!]. The prof explains that Dr. Aiken's Mark I computer at Harvard was the first of the so-called "giant brains" [a vicious rumor spread by the Harvard ministry of propaganda -- everyone know that ENIAC was the first one that was worth anything [yes, Wharton is part of Penn]]. The discussion of MINIAC is not bad -- ALU, Memory, bits and core [copyright 1958]...etc. So what does Danny do with this great opportunity...gets it to do his homework for him. "Now," he said, "programming is telling the machine exactly what questions you want answered and how you want them answered. In order to do that right you have to know just what sequences of operations you want the machine to go through." .... they feed homework to MINIAC... "Gosh," said Joe [the first hacker] sipping his coca-cola, "This is the life!" To make a long story short, a group of bullies sabotages the computer by turning up the temperature in the machine room so that it gets too hot and begins to make mistakes [those new thinner tapes must have expanded and be rubbing on the r/w heads!]. Danny gets turned in to the teacher and there is this big morals argument about whether it is cool to do your work ala machina. [Williams, Jay and Raymond Abrashkin; "Danny Dunn and the Homework Machine"; Scholastic Book Service, 1958. There is also an LP record of the story. Other books in the series: D.D. and the Anti-Gravity Paint D.D. on a Desert Island D.D and the Weather Machine D.D. on the Ocean Floor ] ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 1981 2249-PST From: Jim McGrath Subject: Danny Dunn and the Homework Machine If I remember correctly (I last read the story over 15 years ago), the teacher also pointed out to Danny that the task of programming the computer to do his homework was more difficult than doing the homework itself! Thus he (the teacher) felt that it was OK for them to have been using the computer, since they had to have the knowledge and ability to solve all the homework problems, in addition to putting in all the extra time. Altogether a fairly realistic outlook on computers. Jim ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 1981 0915-PDT Sender: LEAVITT at USC-ISI Subject: SF Bookstore From: Mike Leavitt The only SF-only bookstore in the Washington dc area I know about is "Moonstone Bookcellars", 2145 Penn. Ave., NW. There may be one near the U. of Maryland, as well. ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 1981 0922-PDT From: Zellich at OFFICE-3 Subject: Re: SF and the Deaf Apparently another message I sent right after the one appearing in Issue 109 got lost (I sent it from an experimental facility, not from here). I found the book I was talking about: it is Lloyd Biggle, Jr.'s "Silence is Deadly". There is a note in my SFBC edition that says it was originally published as a short story, in a completely different version, in the Oct '57 issue of If Worlds of Science Fiction. Cheers, Rich ------------------------------ ACW@MIT-AI 04/30/81 17:24:20 Re: In the country of the deaf; administrivia. ** Lloyd Biggle wrote a wonderful series of novels about a private investigator who rises to become the chief executive of the galaxy. One of the novels is called "Silence is Deadly" and concerns the planet Kamm, whose denizens are all deaf and mute. They communicate by sign. It's a good description of what it is like to be the only one on the planet who can hear. Perhaps someone can give a complete listing of this series. While each novel can stand on its own, I think they are better read in order. I just forget what the right order is. ** I wish the Moderator would leave out or shorten the message explaining that we haven't missed a digest -- I would even advise going to a Monday-Wednesday-Friday scheme officially. ---Wechsler [ Normally SF-LOVERS is distributed daily. However, if there is not sufficient material to justify the distribution of a digest, then a day is skipped. The usual breakpoint in terms of quantity of material is 5000 characters (most digests vary from 10,000 to 15,000 characters in length). Recently there was a drop off in submitted material, due mainly to semester and Easter breaks accross the country. When this occurrs some days may not see a digest (I try to limit these obmissions to the weekend). In deference to those who do not read the digests often, the Administrativia messages are included. Please also note that when a large amount of material is sent to SF-LOVERS, that it becomes impossible to transmit all of the material immediately. Delays in digest inclusion are minimized, but they do exist. - Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 1981 00:55-EDT From: Dale R. Worley Subject: Land of the blind I believe I saw a report of some African village in which everyone over about the age of five was blind due to some disease carried by flies (the (in)famous "river blindness"?). Apparently this had been the case as long as anyone could remember; they had ropes strung along the common paths and, needless to say, had no vision-related words in their vocabulary. Dale ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 1981 1647-EDT From: Steven J. Zeve Subject: the hearing in a deaf society The story has been done already. I don't remember the title, I will try to look for it this weekend. steve z. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 1981 1702-PDT From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE Subject: sentient home appliances The Flintstones had a sentient record-player! --cat ------------------------------ Date: 1981-4-29-11:22:57.60 Sender: YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO From: AL LEHOTSKY at METOO Subject: Re: Un-covering the Covered-Wagon Dyer @USC-ISIB complained about "covered wagon stories" and cited the absurdity of homesteading a new planet with Conestoga wagons. While I would hate to be in the position of trying to defend "Time Enough for Love", there are sound economic and engineering reasons for using simple technology when the nearest service station is light-years away! If you go back to some of Heinlein's juveniles (a terrible label - I still love to read them at age 30), he expounds on this theory quite often. [Cf. "Farmer in the Sky" and "Tunnel in the Sky"]. ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 1981 1912-EDT (Saturday) From: David.Smith at CMU-10A (C410DS30) Subject: re: robotrix From Webster's Unabridged Dictionary: -trix, pl. -trixes, -trices, an ending of some feminine nouns of agent, corresponding to the masculine form -(t)or, as in aviatrix. So I checked to see whether the ending was really -(t)rix. No -rix entry, but: rixatrix, a scolding woman. [from L. rixator, a brawler.] ------------------------------ Date: 2 MAY 1981 1428-PDT From: WOODS at PARC-MAXC Subject: how's "trix"? You're looking in the wrong place: the suffix is "trix", not "rix". Besides "aviatrix", I've also encountered it in "executrix", but it really isn't a very common formation. From Webster's Third Int'l: "-trix (pl, -trices or -trixes) [Middle English, from Latin, feminine of -tor, ending of agent nouns, from -tus, past participle ending + -or, more at -ed] 1: female that does or is associated with a (specified) thing --compare -tress. 2: straight line--in geometry . One last question: What is this doing in SF-Lovers? (Oh yeah, robotrix...) One last remark: Anybody care to enrage the feminists by claiming "trix are for kids"? -- Don. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 1981 2320-PDT From: Jim McGrath Subject: The death of the Death Star c. 1981 N.Y. Times News Service Rather than tangle with Darth Vader, Robert Moss said, he has changed the title of his next spy novel from ''Death Star'' to ''Death Beam.'' The book, the British journalist's first solo venture into fiction is to be published in October, It offers another version - this time featuring a ''killer satellite'' - of the Soviet-American intelligence duel that inspired ''The Spike,'' the best seller by Moss and Arnaud de Borchgrave. Far from being unaware that ''Death Star'' was the name of the spaceship in ''Star Wars,'' Moss picked it up deliberately, he said Tuesday in Manhattan. ''It was used jokingly by characters in the book, to indicate skepticism over 'this thing out of science fiction','' he said. But a letter from Lucas Films, producers of ''Star Wars,'' to Crown Publishers Inc. took a less casual view of the borrowing. ''The new title is more accurate, the weapon really is a beam,'' Moss said. He and de Borchgrave have begun a second collaboration, he said, on a book ''about third-world terrorism.'' Jim ------------------------------ JPM@MIT-AI 5/2/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last in the digest. It discusses a concept (the hyperdrive "blind spot") presented in the Known Space series of stories written by Larry Niven. Those unfamilar with this series of works may not wish to read any further. ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 1981 01:38-EDT From: Dale R. Worley Subject: Spoilers Something has been bothering me... Niven's "blind spot" is a nice idea, \but/ the "blind spot" phenomenon appears only when the light falling on a particular spot of the retina stays constant, that is, does not change as the eye is rotated. (This was studied by a heroic Russian scientist who made a small apparatus that attached to his eyeball by suction cups that held an orange disk a short way in front of his pupil. First the orange spot turned grey and then it disappeared entirely, leaving a blind spot. People with small wounds on the retina see them as blind spots, also.) The point is, if the space surrounding the head of the observer is "normal", then there must be some pattern of light coming inward, and it will be perceived just as it ordinarily would. The brain constructs the "blind spot" phenomenon only in response to anomalies in the perception mechanism. Dale ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Summary-line: 4-MAY "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #111 *** EOOH *** Date: 4 MAY 1981 0722-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #111 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Monday, 4 May 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 111 Today's Topics: SF Books - "Down in Flames" & The Wounded Land & Cherryh's short stories & The Long Twilight & Cyber-SF & Computer in Children's stories (Danny Dunn and Oliver), SF Movies - The Invasion of the Star Creatures, SF Topics - SF and the Deaf (Silence is Deadly), Spoiler - I Will Fear No Evil ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ALA@MIT-AI 05/03/81 01:19:44 Re: Down in Flames I have been overrun with requests for copies of Down in Flames. For that reason I'd like to suggest that people hold off on sending me requests. At the point when I know if there is a reasonable way to distribute it via netmail I will send a note to SF-LOVERS about it. Thanks alot. It's great to know that there are lots of other Known Space lovers out there. Alyson ------------------------------ Date: 3 May 1981 1348-PDT From: Mark Crispin The Wounded Land by Steven R. Donaldson is out in paperback. For those of you in the San Francisco Bay Area, the Tower Records bookstore has it, and probably Future Fantasy as well. [ it does - Jim ] Nobody has yet seemed to figure out where the third Raver is (see my earlier SFL comment). [ Mark's earlier message appeared in Volume 3, issue 101 as a spoiler. - Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 03 MAY 1981 1121-EDT From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Cherryh's shorts C. J. Cherryh won the short-story Hugo in 1979 for "Cassandra", thereby cutting in half Spider Robinson's record of 4 years from Campbell to Hugo. (Spider shared the Campbell (best new SF author) with Lisa Tuttle in 1974 and shared the 1978 novella Hugo with his wife for the first part of STARDANCE. Barry Longyear then wiped CJ's record by winning both the Campbell and the novella Hugo in 1980). "Cassandra" was published in F&SF, which is where I would expect to find her other short works (she's one of the most civilized people I know, but I can't imagine her having any patience with the restrictions of writing for ANALOG). ------------------------------ Date: 3 May 1981 (Sunday) 0435-EDT From: WESTFW at WHARTON-10 (William Westfield) Subject: ships' computers being manipulative I can think of one instance where a ship's computer was quite manipultive of the environment. this was a novel entitled 'The Long Twilight' -- I forget the author. The novel is about these two aliens that are assigned a mission which is basically to destroy the earth (this was far in the past). At least one of them has second thoughts when they discover intelligent life, and damages the ship to the extent that they can no longer destroy earth. Now, these aliens are effectively immortal, and they hang around for a couple of thousands of years, and eventually we progress to the point where we start using broadcast power, which the ship is able to use to repair itself, and a race starts to save the world again. (this is a pretty scetchy outline. I don't think it needs a spoiler warning). Bill W ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 1981 at 2152-CDT From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ C-3PO's FUNCTION ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Chip objected to "the characterization of a protocol 'droid's function as being primarily the management of information", but I disagree. Whatever C-3PO does when he is doing what he was specifically designed to do-- something we have hardly ever seen happening-- a protocol 'droid appears to be an automated super-Emily-Post, a \storer and purveyor/ of \information/ regarding "prescribed forms of behavior". OWEN: You! I suppose you're programmed for etiquette and protocol? C-3PO: Protocol? Why, it's my primary function, sir. I am well-versed in all the customs-- (Such a device need not be mobile nor humanoid, tho it WOULD seem handier to have one like a PR-man at your elbow.) As for "making him a translator [being] a little more complicated", and involving having his brain mimic that of a human-- I don't see how this would be any more so than in making him sentient to begin with. Maybe less-- as I've been helping teach a big idiot of a computer to translate from German to English for the last few years, and tho the dum-dum is finally catching on, it still isn't sentient! (Darnit! ) Moreover, Threep IS a translator-- WHAT a translator! Recall the early scene in TESB where they pick up the signals from the Probe 'droid at the Rebel Base on Hoth, and 3PO says-- Sir, I'm fluent in 6 million forms of communication. This signal is not used by the Alliance. It could be an Imperial code. (For THAT many, maybe he knows honey-bee dancing and lightning- bug blink patterns!) .......... P.S.: In re the later message from Chip about computers with desires of being human, it was NOT Lazarus but Ira that Minerva was in love with. ------------------------------ LEVITT@MIT-AI 05/03/81 11:10:18 I too misplaced my Danny Dunn books 15 years ago, but I remember them as fantastic. Complicated plot twists were common, as when Danny and Joe accidently launched Prof. Bullfinch's experimental spacecraft (powered by an accidently-discovered paint), with all of them in it. Constantly inventing, the crew wound up un-jamming an unreachable relay (!) by playing some cello music at it, as I recall. (Acoustic transmission through space?) A book missing from SHRAGE's list is "DANNY DUNN and the HEAT RAY", about lasers. The other great series of that kind starred a kid named Oliver (I'm almost sure). In "OLIVER SOUNDS OFF!", he invents a super fire alarm siren, which of course winds up being too loud. In another book he learns about silver nitrate, and creates a monstrous snowstorm. These books affected me indelibly, notwithstanding a general lapse on authors, titles, and plots. Anyone remember? Do schools still have them around? While on the subject, the other great SF book from Scholastic Books was THE FORGOTTEN DOOR, by Alexander Keys. An alien boy accidently stumbles into an ancient, hidden transporter and winds up on Earth. He has special powers, and a rapport with animals, but of course he frightens some people. So he gets to deal with American bigots, and the courts; but he connects with some solid folks, a family that looks out for him and help him get back to the transporter at for an escape rendezvous. The end is perfect, but I won't let Roger put this underneath the SPOILER WARNING!!s. I loved this book. I'm not at all SF mainstream -- is it well known? (Has it already been discussed on this list?) Has he written anything else? ------------------------------ Date: 3 May 1981 0447-PDT (Sunday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: Danny Dunn & another BAD film Yah! I knew SOMEBODY else read the Danny Dunn books! By the way, when the teacher found out that they were using MINIAC to do their homework, she started assigning them MUCH HARDER work to compensate for their "advantage". MINIAC generated all of its output through a tty, but used VOICE as its primary input device. A memorable series. ---- I have stumbled across another BAD, BAD, BAD, AWFUL, DISGUSTING, SF film. I am watching it right now as I type this message. It is SO BAD that I can hardly believe it. However, it does have synchronized sound (unlike "The Creeping Terror"), and does NOT take itself seriously. This beauty is called "The Invasion of the Star Creatures". I knew I was in trouble when: 1) It came on at 4 AM. 2) The credits started with: "R. I. Diculous Presents". 3) Other credits were headed with "Perpetrated by" and "Electronic Noise by..." The story involves a pair of soldiers who stumble across aliens who have been visiting Earth from the "Bellflower" star system. (BELLFLOWER?) The film is circa 1963 and stars the world famous Robert Ball and Frankie Ray. Anyone else out there remember this gem? It's really rather amusing, and IS played strictly for laughs -- quite slapstick. Well, my only other "good" viewing choice right now is, "They Saved Hitler's Brain", so I guess I'll stick with the star creatures for now. Ta ta. --Lauren-- ------------------------------ Date: 03 MAY 1981 1130-EDT From: HITCHCOCK at CCA (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: deafness in SF A novel that matches several of the descriptions recently in SFL is Lloyd Biggle's SILENCE IS DEADLY. This is the fourth of the Jan Darzek books (a fifth has since come out but MITSFS never got it). Not a great book, but entertaining in spots. ------------------------------ APPLE@MIT-MC 05/03/81 04:21:39 Re: Silent Planet The book referred to by someone in yesterday's digest is called Silent Planet. Unfortunately, I can't remember the name of the author. The planet of the title is a world where none of the life-forms developed hearing (however, this lack is compensated by the extreme sensitivity of another sense; my telling which one would be a "spoiler"). An agent of the galactic government is sent there because it's suspected that the world has developed a type of forbidden weapon. He is artificially shaped to resemble the inhabitants, and is required to learn their intricate hand-sign language. I believe I enjoyed the book chiefly because of the its unique central concept. Unfortunately, I read it a few years ago, and so little but the central elements of the plot remains clear in my mind. ------------------------------ JPM@MIT-AI 5/3/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last in the digest. It discusses events in Heinlein's novel "I Will Fear No Evil." Those unfamilar with this work of works may not wish to read any further. ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 1981 01:38-EDT From: Dale R. Worley Subject: Spoilers Something has been bothering me... In Heinlein's "I Will Fear No Evil", the hero's brain gets transplanted into the body of a woman. At about the time I got bored with the book, the hero/heroine seems to be planning to get pregnant. \However/, this just doesn't win. The gonads are controlled by the hypothalamus (part of the brain), and it is the hypothalamus that is responsible for the sex hormone system of males and females being different. I.e., the testes produce one set of hormones continuously, the ovaries produce two sets alternately. The difference between these two modes of behavior lies more in the hypothalamus than the gonads. What makes the difference in the hypothalamus? If the hypothalamus is exposed to testosterone during a particular period of very early life, it adopts the "male" pattern, if not, it adopts the "female" pattern. (In humans this period is before birth; in rats, it is a few days after birth, making them ideal experimental subjects.) So, our hero/heroine is stuck with a "male" hypothalamus, and thus can't have a normal female sex cycle. Dale ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Summary-line: 5-MAY "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #112 *** EOOH *** Date: 5 MAY 1981 0722-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #112 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Tuesday, 5 May 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 112 Today's Topics: SF Lovers - A Plea for Less Cryptic Messages, SF Books - The Long Twilight & Cyber-SF & Computers in Children's stories (Danny Dunn and Oliver), SF TV - Network Additions and Deletions (Mr. Merlin), SF Topics - SF and the Deaf ("Mother and Child" and "The Persistence of Vision" and Dark Universe and Deadly Silents), Misc - Yale and the NET ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 4 May 1981 08:06 PDT From: REDDERSON.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: SF-Lovers DL Being a new "subscriber" to SF LOVERS, i can't help but plead for a little less cryptic messages. The fact that one is a sci fi fan doesn't imply that one is familiar with all the novels, short stories, etc associated with sci fi. I never would've been able to parse THHGttG into The HitchHiker's Guide to the Galaxy if someone hadn't recently lent me the book. Also one long-time veteran of this DL hadn't even heard of Science Fiction & Fantasy Magazine(SF&F). I lucked out these few times, but can't say i'll always have a clue...The first spoiler warning i saw was quite a mystery also, consequently i read the trailing message anyway, since that was the first time i had seen it. Ergo, what is ANALOG? [ ANALOG is a Science Fiction magazine, which use to go under the name of ASTOUNDING. Most of the stories that appeared during the so called "Golden Age" of Science Fiction (late 30's and early 40's) were printed in this magazine. It has a still has a solid reputation in the field, with a decided bent toward "hard" science fiction (stories in which science palys a major role). - Jim ] ------------------------------ TANG@MIT-AI 05/04/81 14:01:59 Re: The Long Twilight . . . is by Keith Laumer. I thought it excellent, sort of a cross between a private-eye novel and SF. ------------------------------ FIL@MIT-AI 05/04/81 19:39:01 Re: The Long Twilight The author of "The Long Twilight" is Keith Laumer. There are some references in the book comparing one or both to Prometheus and/or Lucifer (different names for the same guy anyway). ------------------------------ kwh@MIT-AI 05/04/81 15:03:38 There were a lot more Danny Dunn stories than just those few! Some may have been turned out after most of the SF-Lovers reading list passed that stage, but I can think of at least: Danny Dunn and the Automatic House Danny Dunn and the Smallifying Machine (sigh) Danny Dunn and the Time Machine (They meet Ben Franklin) Danny Dunn and the Sea Monster(I'm not sure of this title.... It was a giant catfish) I feel pretty sure that there are more, but I can't seem to remember them..... Cheers, Ken Haase ------------------------------ Date: 4 May 1981 13:34:44-EDT From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: protocol My point was that protocol consists primarily of the \mis/management of information---withholding, concealing, or denying. I grant that this could be called information management if you take a more technical view of the process; I also grant that a mechanical brain that could do this well would have to be extremely sophisticated by our standards, as much of protocol is judgmental. ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 1981 21:20-EDT From: Dale R. Worley Subject: "-rix" suffix The suffix "-rix" is used as a feminine form of "-or" in words borrowed from Latin. I think the most common use is "executrix", meaning a female executor of a will. Dale ------------------------------ Date: 3 May 1981 0015-PDT (Sunday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: -ix and "Star Prince" RE: Words relating to females that end in the "-ix" form. I can think of one more -- "dominatrix". These are the women (frequently dressed in tight leather costumes) who chain guys to walls and such (at their request, of course), and whip, paddle, and otherwise torment them. It goes without saying that these guys pay for their services. --- RE: The new television program "Star Prince". Reminds me of an old cartoon show (from "Mushi" productions and American International) called "Prince Planet": "No one can compare -- to the prince who wears -- a medallion on his chest..." We can only hope this new show is not a cross of Prince Planet and "My Favorite Martian". BEEP Beep beep beeeeeeeeep. --Lauren-- ------------------------------ Date: 3 May 1981 at 2337-CDT From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ TRIX are TREATS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ From the old multi-volume computer-generated NORMAL AND REVERSE ENGLISH WORD LIST (A.F. Brown) based on all the major topical and general dictionaries of circa 1960-- PERTURBATRIX CICATRIX MEDICATRIX INDICATRIX SIGNIFICATRIX VERSIFICATRIX FORNICATRIX ADVOCATRIX EVOCATRIX FUNDATRIX BEATRIX CREATRIX PROCREATRIX INSTIGATRIX INTERROGATRIX OBJURGATRIX GLADIATRIX MEDIATRIX VINDEMIATRIX IMPROPRIATRIX INIATRIX NEGOTIATRIX AVIATRIX RELATRIX ZELATRIX BELLATRIX CONSOLATRIX TRANSLATRIX BUCCALATRIX SPECULATRIX OSCULATRIX STIMULATRIX COPULATRIX MATRIX SARCOMATRIX STEREOMATRIX NATRIX SENATRIX VATICINATRIX SERMOCINATRIX NOMINATRIX EXTERMINATRIX IMPERSONATRIX GUBERNATRIX PATRIX SEPATRIX AUTOCRATRIX QUADRATRIX MODERATRIX GENERATRIX REGENERATRIX IMPERATRIX OPERATRIX INSPIRATRIX ORATRIX NARRATRIX PERPETRATRIX ARBITRATRIX SEQUESTRATRIX COADMINISTRATRIX ADMINISTRATRIX CURATRIX PROCURATRIX OBTURATRIX DISPENSATRIX ACCUSATRIX SPECTATRIX DICTATRIX AGITATRIX IMITATRIX TESTATRIX CAPTIVATRIX NOVATRIX CONSERVATRIX RIVATRIX FACTRIX TRACTRIX PROJECTRIX INSPECTRIX RECTRIX DIRECTRIX BISECTRIX TRISECTRIX PROJECTRIX VICTRIX DOCTRIX PROPRIETRIX PRIMOGENETRIX GENETRIX HERETRIX MERETRIX TETRIX OBSTETRIX SOLICITRIX CREDITRIX EXPENDITRIX JANITRIX PROGENITRIX MONITRIX ADMONITRIX HERITRIX INHERITRIX INQUISITRIX VISITRIX COMPETITRIX SERVITRIX PRECENTRIX LIFERENTRIX PAINTRIX PROMOTRIX THYSANOTRIX ASSERTRIX TORTRIX STRIX DISTRIX IMPOSTRIX HYSTRIX PROSECUTRIX PERSECUTRIX EXECUTRIX COEXECUTRIX PROLOCUTRIX INTERLOCUTRIX COADJUTRIX NUTRIX TUTRIX INSTITUTRIX FUTUTRIX But no "robotrix" nor "emancipatrix"! (Not even a "rivatrix".) ------------------------------ Date: 4 May 1981 1059-PDT (Monday) From: Mike at UCLA-SECURITY (Michael Urban) Subject: More F&SF on the Tube I note that CBS has scheduled a new show for next season called "Mr. Merlin", in which Merlin (yes, THAT Merlin) is running a garage in San Francisco and is training a 15-year-old apprentice. It sounds faintly idiotic, but Merlin will be played by Barnard Hughes, a minor TV comedic actor ("Doc") who might give the show some class. I think TV's headed into another My-Favorite-Martian/Bewitched/ I-Dream-Of-Jeannie cycle. Oh well. Mike ------------------------------ Date: 3 May 1981 0157-EDT From: Steven J. Zeve Subject: hearing in the land of the deaf I have read the story that Will Martin mentioned. I was looking for it in my collection, but couldn't find it. I seem to recall it being part of a containing two novellas. I have also read another story about a man with hearing in the land of the deaf. The "hero" of the story runs a bar/resort somewhere in the mountains, this gives him an ideal excuse to be always far away from the noise of a civilization that no one else can hear. I think it was in ANALOG but I'm not sure. steve z. ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 1981 at 2128-CDT From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 Subject: Deafness story identification Will Martin's story of the kidnapped priestess is "Mother and Child" which is "hidden" in a paperback of Vinge's LIFESHIP, a sort of unacknowledged 'double' or 'binary'. ------------------------------ Date: 4 May 1981 0827-PDT Sender: WMARTIN at OFFICE-3 Subject: The lost which was found... !sf.n112 From: WMARTIN at OFFICE-3 Wow, thanks to HJJH for identifying "Mother and Child"'s location/title. I had poked about looking for that mistaken reference that was pointing me in the wrong direction, and never would have remembered Fireship, which I read in a library copy, and wouldn't have seen again anyhow. (What I realled as "Last Earths" was in fact "Evil Earths", and had nothing to do with this story anyway.) More evidence of the inestimable value of SF-Lovers... Regards, Will ------------------------------ Date: 4 May 1981 16:47:17-PDT From: CSVAX.peter at Berkeley Subject: deaf/blind science fiction check out john varley's short story: ``the persistence of vision'' about a utopian community formed by deaf and blind people. it originally appeared in ``the magazine of fantasy and science fiction'', march 1978. i found it a collection of his short stories called ``in the hall of the martian kings''. most of the rest of that collection is quite good, and includes another story of someone who can see and hear but has better ways of communicating. ... peter ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 1981 at 1740-PDT From: obrien at RAND-UNIX Subject: Dark Universe I might mention the much-praised novel "Dark Universe", by Daniel F. Galouye. This was first published in the mid-sixties, I believe, and is a post-holocaust novel. It deals with one society of survivors who live in the underground network of cave shelters, with no lights. They have a complete society down there, and don't know what sight is, though they all have functional eyes. The novel is written from the point of hearing of a dweller in this society, where one finds one's way around by listening to the echoes from a large mechanical clapper in the center of each city. The overtones of each clapper define the ambience of each city. It's pretty fascinating and very well worked out. ------------------------------ Date: 3 May 1981 01:48:02-PDT From: mhtsa!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley Subject: SF and the Deaf Lee Killough's new book "Deadly Silents" has a similar theme. It's a mystery set on a planet where the overwhelming majority is telepathic, but a small minority is not. Naturally, the spoken language is minimal, and the Silents are largely excluded from society. By the way, I realize I forgot to mention the author of "Katie and the Computer": Fred D'Ignazio. ------------------------------ Date: 4 May 1981 1951-EDT From: JHENDLER at BBNA Subject: Yale and net In answer to an earlier query: No, Yale is not on the net. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Summary-line: 6-MAY "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #113 *** EOOH *** Date: 6 MAY 1981 0722-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #113 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Wednesday, 6 May 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 113 Today's Topics: SF Lovers - A Plea for Less Cryptic Messages, SF Books - CPU Wars Comix & The Long Twilight & Piers Anthony & The Forgotten Door & Cyber-SF (The Jesus Incident and The Silver Eggheads) & Computers in Children's stories (Tom Swift and Danny Dunn), SF Movies - Monster Beach Party, SF TV - Violent Vermin week, Spoiler - I Will Fear No Evil ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DP@MIT-ML 05/05/81 00:04:30 Re: CPU Comix I like Alyson have been flooded with requests for CPU wars. I am currently determining cost of mailing, and when I have found out (hopefully by the time you get this) I will send a note to all who have inquired. It is not an item that can be made available over the net, as it contains artwork--- Patience, Jeff ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 1981 10:21:36-EDT From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: cryptic references I sympathize with REDDERSEN's difficulties, having come in in the middle of a discussion in APA's in previous occasions. The problem is that with a daily digest (which most of us read at least weekly) what is cryptic to a neo is merely economic to someone who's been reading SFL for a while. I suppose the best solution is to ask whoever told you about SFL in the first place. Also, unless someone's uncovered a new zine, it's F&SF, not SF&F. ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 1981 07:15-EDT From: Robert W. Kerns Subject: SF-Lovers DL// Cryptic Messages Er, what does "DL" stand for? ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 1981 07:33 PDT From: REDDERSON.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: SF-Lovers DL// Cryptic Messages Guilty as charged! (ahem) DL means distribution list. Lynne ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 1981 10:06:40-EDT From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: THE LONG TWILIGHT Does \\not// have any of its characters assume the identity of Greek or Christian deist myths! The two leads are Grallgrathor ("Thor", "Grayle", etc.) and Lokrien ("Loki", "Falconer", etc.)---and at the end, just to make it obvious, Laumer throws in a mention of "High Admiral Wotan" and "Fleet Commander Tyrr" (I don't promise that the titles are exactly accurate). ------------------------------ Date: 4 May 1981 1807-PDT From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE Subject: mushy Piers Anthony; Forgotten Door I was thinking of the Var the Stick series and the Kirlian Quest series when I said that Anthony's stuff starts well but devolves into weird mush. Sex, interspecies or otherwise, is not necessarily weird mush -- \that/ certainly wasn't what I was objecting to. Yes, I read The Forgotten Door (and probably have an old SBS copy somewhere). It was one of my favorites, along with the Space Cat books (by Alexander?) and Edward Eager's magic books. good reading, --cat ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 4 May 1981 18:38-PDT Subject: Re: The Forgotten Door From: mike at RAND-UNIX I remember "The Forgotten Door" too! Boy, what a memory flash I got when Levitt@mit-ai reminded me about that one! It's a terrific book, or at least it seems terrific from a distance of at least 10 years. As I recall, however, and this requires no spoiler, the young boy is not from another planet but from another time, the future. The people of the future are not technologically primitive, but they choose to live more simply. The young boy can speak english and eat normal food; I don't believe he is physiologically alien. ------------------------------ Date: 4 May 1981 17:09:36-PDT From: eagle!mhtsa!duke!unc!tyg at Berkeley Subject: Tom Swift and Nebulas No, i'm not asking if a Tom Swift book ever won a nebula(he said starry-eyed.) Two separate queries, first did a TS or TSjr. book ever deal with computers. I collected the complete series 'bout ten years ago and can't recall any ever going into any detail about computers. Since i haven't read 'em in years and they're stored 250 miles away, can anyone help? Second, did anyone ever find out who won the Nebulas last month? Tom Galloway at UNC-CH ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 1981 10:11:12-EDT From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Danny Dunn Although the recently-published books in this series claim to have (according to my recollection) the same authors (Williams and Abrashkin) I have heard that they are effectively a second series, revived by different (e.g., house) authors after several years lapse. Unfortunately, I can't give names certainly from the newer series. (Also, SS may be republishing some of the older titles with new covers.) I do recall reading DD and the Time Machine in the early 60's, so that's definitely not one of the new series, although it may have been one of the last published in the old series. ------------------------------ Date: 4 May 1981 1354-EDT From: Steven J. Zeve Subject: Misc. 1) talk about forgotten memories! Danny Dunn! those were fun when I read them. And just seeing the title of THE FORGOTTEN DOOR reminded me that I had read it once upon a time. 2) SILENT PLANET ? I don't think it was the book I was thinking of. 3) On the subject of computers/robots that want to be human, how about THE BICENTENNIAL MAN ? Or even the unanswered question posed in the last of the Susan Calvin stories (the title of which I can't remember). steve z. ------------------------------ PCR@MIT-MC 05/05/81 08:08:51 Re: bad movies Did anybody ever catch the '50s thriller "Monster Beach Party"? (or something like that.) Kind of a cross between Annette Funecello (sp?) and "The Creature from the Black Lagoon." As I recall, the monster looked like a guy in a wetsuit with green rags hanging on his arms. Turned out that the guy who saved everybody was the one nobody would invite to the beach parties. ...phil ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 81 12:55-PDT From: mclure at Sri-Unix Subject: Bay Area masochists For the week of May 9-15, on the cut-em-up-and-butcher-em 3:30 movie, we have: Ben Killer Bees Frogs Empire of the Ants The Food of the Gods How's that for a disgusting line-up? And guess what the TV guide touts it as? VIOLENT VERMIN WEEK! ------------------------------ Date: 4 May 1981 at 2257-CDT From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ CYBER-SF Miscellany ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ IN RE: Bill W's book titled THE LONG TWILIGHT-- The author is Keith Laumer. IN RE: the near-duplicate messages from me on SF-L last week-- My apologies. I'd meant the later version to be used instead of the earlier one which had not appeared yet, but didn't think to tell the Moderator to discard the 2nd version if the 1st was already in an issue on its way. IN RE: an additional sub-class of robot TYPE-- RO:qsi QUASI-PERIPHERALS (partly/fully computer-controlled) has been amplified to: RO:qsi QUASI-PERIPHERALS (partly/fully controlled by computer or other robot) with 2 examples added for robot-controlled robots: ? _the "robbies" in Janifer's SURVIVOR - _the industrial robots in Piper's THE COSMIC COMPUTER IN RE: Philip K. Dick fans-- Are there any on SF-L? It wouldn't surprise me if there weren't, but if there ARE, we could use some knowledgeable help. ------------------------------ Date: 4 May 1981 2148-EDT From: KREEN at MIT-DMS (Brian J. Kreen) Subject: Overambitious computers I've just started reading this discussion, and haven't checked the archives yet, but this might not have been mentioned. A book titled 'The Jesus incident' by Frank Herbert describes a groups efforts to create an artificial conscious for a ship. This ship later takes over and get's very unpredictable. I believe that this is the sequel to 'Destination Void' by Herbert. Hindmost ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 1981 10:25:43-EDT From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: -ix, pt II That's a \\lot// of ixes. But did your source say what, for instance, a "meretor" was? "Meretrix" is the Latin word for "prostitute" (as described here previously). I am appalled to admit that there a number of other words in that list that I don't recognize, so I will now repair to Text Processing, where they have a tolerable dictionary. . . . ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 1981 10:16:21-EDT From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: -ix (one mo' time) Then of course there's Fritz Leiber's THE SILVER EGGHEADS, in which a female robot is a robix; it is appropriate for robixes to be "ixy" (really!) which looks like Leiber satirizing language itself in addition to everything else. (NB if you haven't read tSE it is \\highly// recommended.) ------------------------------ JPM@MIT-AI 5/6/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following messages are the last in the digest. They discuss some early plot elements in Heinlein's novel "I Will Fear No Evil." Those unfamilar with this work may not wish to read any further. ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 1981 10:33:15-EDT From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: heinlein's neurophysiology (\\marginal// spoiler, as what's described below happens early in the book) In I WILL FEAR NO SEX, Heinlein never makes clear how much of the brain is transported; one could argue that substantial portions hadn't been, since Eunice's "reflexes", even at the complicated level of taking taped dictation with a fancy machine, are retained in the hybrid, while Johann's piano skills are gone. Of course, RAH doesn't really know or care about the biological limitations of his ideas; he's repeatedly shown that he doesn't know very much outside of engineering except when he's quoting from a book (as in the genetics lectures in BEYOND THIS HORIZON and TIME ENOUGH TO SCREW AROUND). In IWFNS he's obviously more interested in didactic, Shlaffley-esque points about the difference between men and women (and about the general decay of the world due to liberal delusions about equality) than in making his science work. His errors are in good company, though; a lot of Niven's biology is just as hashed, albeit a bit more up to date. Incidentally, there is a better discussion of the possible effects of cross-sexual brain transplants: Dave van Arnam's STARMIND, which came out a couple of years before IWFNS. Not much of a story, but an interesting idea (\\two// half-cerebella transplanted on top of a remaining hindbrain) which becomes questionable in light of current theories about left-brain and right-brain thinking. ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 1981 06:21-EDT From: Robert W. Kerns Subject: I will fear no Heinlein C'mon, hasn't anybody heard of hormone shots? ------------------------------ Date: 4 May 1981 1354-EDT From: Steven J. Zeve Subject: Misc. In I WILL FEAR NO EVIL couldn't she have just gotten a shot of an appropriate hormone, or even several shots? "They" certainly have enough money to arrange it. steve z. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Summary-line: 7-MAY "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #114 *** EOOH *** Date: 7 MAY 1981 0722-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #114 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Thursday, 7 May 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 114 Today's Topics: SF Lovers - A Plea for Less Cryptic Messages, SF Books - Image of the Beast & "The Devil You Don't", SF TV - Science Shows, SF Topics - SF and the Deaf (Darzek series) & Evolution of Unicorns, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barry Margolin Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #112 Date: 4 May 1981 08:06 PDT From: REDDERSON.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: SF-Lovers DL Being a new "subscriber" to SF LOVERS, i can't help but plead for a little less cryptic messages. I am not familiar with everything that gets discussed in this mailing-list, but I have to disagree with you anyway. We are not guilty of too many cryptic messages. We rarely abbreviate things that we have not been discussing a great deal (as in HHGTtG) or that are not generally well-known (TESB). In the case of "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy", we have been talking about it for the last two or three months, and it is a bit tedious to type that name fully each time you send a message about it. I don't think you could get us to stop using buzzwords, as most of us are programmers who live and work in an environment where buzzwords proliferate. As to mentioning magazines that people don't know about, what can be done? Once it is mentioned, however, people know that there is something else out there that they might want to look for. Barmar ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 6 May 1981 00:49-EDT From: Jonathan Alan Solomon Subject: SF-Lovers DL Being an old-timer to SF-Lovers, I can't help but plead for a little less cryptic messages. What is DL??? Cheers, JSol p.s. = Enter Sarcasm Mode, = Leave Sarcasm Mode in case some of you are newcomers. ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 1981 22:58:07-PDT From: CSVAX.hamachi at Berkeley Subject: Review of IMAGE OF THE BEAST by Philip Jose Farmer IMAGE OF THE BEAST, by Philip Jose Farmer, published by Playboy Press, 1979. I have mixed feelings about this book. On one hand, the first 16 pages constitute the most disgusting mess I have ever read. On the other hand the book as a whole managed to keep my interest. As always, the packaging is informative in its own way. "Two Underground Classics, IMAGE OF THE BEAST and BLOWN Now Available in One Unexpurgated Volume." Theodore Sturgeon has written a 3.25 page foreword which amounts to "Well, what is pornography, anyway?". Okay, so there's lots of SEX in the book. Is that so bad? Not by itself. In fact, Farmer carries the sex aspect of the story to intended absurdities when our protagonist Herald Childe falls into the hands of a certain Mrs. Grasatchow. What I find repulsive are the mutilations. IOTB is as much a horror story as it is a science fiction story. It sports a big ugly chauffeur/butler which brings to mind "Lurch" from the ADAMS FAMILY tv show. Also tossed-in are a ghost, a vampire, a witch, a werewolf, and assorted other ghouls. Curiously, Childe's motivation is the cliche of the private detective seeking revenge for the murder of his partner. Farmer lets us know he knows he's using the cliche as he describes in no uncertain terms what a thoroughly rotten guy Childe's partner really was. So, is the book one big spoof of sex, horror, murder, and science fiction? I'm not sure what to think. Who else has read IMAGE OF THE BEAST? ------------------------------ TANG@MIT-AI 05/06/81 11:42:19 Re: Lucifer in a different light The story with Lucifer was "The Devil You Don't" which is in The Best of Keith Laumer. Boy do I like Laumer's stories! (Even if I can't always keep them straight. . . .) ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 1981 2314-PDT From: Daul at OFFICE-2 Subject: SCIENCE SHOWS ON TV FOR MAY SCIENCE ON THE AIR (Science News April 21) TELEVISION May 12 (pbs) "LIFE WITH ST. HELENS" The story of what it is like to have an active volcano in your backyard. The program follows Mt. St. Helens from 1830 through the big eruption of March 27, 1980, and beyond into 1981. May 12 (cbs) "THE BODY HUMAN: BREAKTHROUGH 2000" A new world, in which the future becomes the present, science fiction is no longer fictional, and human beings are at ease with bionic parts. The program shows the progress being made in the development of sophisticated artificial limbs, such as a "myoelectric" hand that responds to brain signals, and also describes newer applications of technology, such as a nerve switch implanted in the brain that releases endorphins to help control pain, a laser beam that acts as a surgical ray gun and a bionic bone implant. May 29 (pbs) "BACK WARDS TO BACK STREETS" A documentary on the de-institutionalization of the mentally ill. The program looks at some of the disasters of community mental health care and the exceptional programs that provide aftercare for discharged mental patients. NOVA May 5 (pbs) "THE WIZARD WHO SPAT ON THE FLOOR" A rare look at Thomas Edison, the man and the myth, featuring unique archival film of Edison explaining his inventions and interviews with Edison's family, employees and critics. May 12 (pbs) "THE WATER CRISIS" A look at a number of water-related problems plaguing the United States -- shortages, acid rain, the effect of chlorine in combination with natural and manmade organic chemicals and contamination by industrial wastes. May 19 (pbs) "MOVING STILL" The extraordinary story of how photography and more recent techniques of freezing moments of time bring remarkable insights into the world and life itself. May 26 (pbs) "A TOUCH OF SENSITIVITY" An exploration of the hidden meaning and extraordinary power of human touch. ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 1981 at 2230-CDT From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "PLANET OF THE DEAF" ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I'm curious as to what LJS at DNGC would specifically have SFL'ers do differently that would be of benefit to deaf readers \without/ being detrimental to the purpose of the interchange. That he have us abjure all references to SF in the aural media seems to be the implication taken by SFL'ers, but is so blatantly Dog-In-The-Manger-ish that perhaps it is not what was meant. As for what kind of society an all-deaf one might develop into, consider a parallel to H.G. Wells "The Country of the Blind". There, super-acute hearing is shown as adequate, rather than any development of telepathy. So evolution on our Planet of the Deaf might rather lead to enhanced visual and olifactory acuity, plus greater consciousness of environmental cues (such as we attribute to Indians and the Aussies do to Aboriginal trackers) and to sensitivity to "Body Language" (not only visible, but tactile, as Virgil Simms' daughter specialized in in one of the early LENSMEN books). ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 1981 10:30:05-EDT From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: deafness As near as I can recall, APPLE is actually describing the same book as the rest of us, with the wrong title but a better plot summary. (I specifically recall that Darzek went to this planet because they seemed to have developed a new weapon.) The Darzek series is as follows: 1. ALL THE COLORS OF DARKNESS (which doesn't look like it was intended to be the first of the series; looks like Biggle decided he'd gotten hold of a good character). 2. WATCHERS OF THE DARK 3. THIS DARKENING UNIVERSE 4. SILENCE IS DEADLY There's also a fifth book which I've seen micro-reviews of but I don't remember the title. They're all decent books, although Biggle does tend to hammer at what he thinks are important plot or moral points. ------------------------------ Date: 4 May 1981 1358-EDT (Monday) From: Hank Walker at CMU-10A (C410DW60) Subject: unicorn in the news (This may below to HN, I don't remember). Lancelot, the California "unicorn" that was mentioned awhile back is appearing in the news via AP. Coming soon to a newspaper or fishwrap near you. [ Lancelot has been discussed in SF-LOVERS before. See volume 3, issues 89, 91, 92, 94, and 95. -- Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 1981 14:58 edt From: JRDavis.LOGO at MIT-Multics Subject: Lancelot the Uni-Goat From the Boston Globe, Tuesday May 5 1981 page 5 FACT, A FREAK, OR FAKE, HE'S PULLING A CROWD Associated Press Redwood City, CA - Though at least one professor doesn't believe it, two Californians say the one-horned, cracker-eating goat they've bred according to an "ancient secret" is a real, live unicorn. Lancelot, a shaggy 1-year-old Angora goat, has one 10-inch horn growing from the middle of his forehead, just like the creature of mythology. "A 4000 -year-old legend," says one of the breeders, who calls herself Morning Glory. She and her husband, called Otter G'Zelle, claim to have carefully bred the creature on their remote Mendocino County spread after discovering a secret formula. But Dr. Perry Cupps, a University of California animal science professor, believes Lancelot is just a freak of nature, not a unicorn. Cupps, who said that such abnormalities happened rarely, laughed at the notion that breeders could make the central horn appear consistently. "Remember that famous ... fellow who said a sucker is born every minute?" he asked. Freak, fake or fact, Lancelot is drawing admiring crowds of paying curiosity seekers at Marine World, a combination zoo, aquarium, and amusement park about 20 miles south of San Francisco. The unicorn of ancient legend was generally part horse, part stag, and part lion, with its horn considered to have magical powers as an antidote to poison. The creature is found woven into tapestry and painted on shields. Lancelot, for his part, is fond of oyster crackers and has been trainded to heel, walk on a leash, jump through a hoop, bow, and lie down on command. Lancelot is produced from Angoran goat stock, but that's as far as the naturalists will go in describing the process that created him. "We quite literally stumbled across an ancient secret," Glory said, adding that when the process has been patented, they will release it to a scientific journal. But Cupps says that the single horn in the middle of Lancelot's forehead, which could grow to 2 1/2 feet, is a freak occurrence similar to the development of a cyclops - a one-eyed being. "The tissue that forms the eye starts to form in the center, then migrates away from the center. The horn does the same thing," he said. "If something happens so the animal doesn't develop normally, then you'd get a central one." But Glory says, " We have a responsibility as scientists, romanticists, and idealists to (protect) a 4000-year-old legend." "Lancelot is quite a remarkable animal. If he were human, you might say he was a superman," she says. ------------------------------ Date: 04 May 1981 1740-PDT From: Jim McGrath Subject: Naturalists Turn Fantasy Into Reality REDWOOD CITY, Calif. (AP) - Lancelot, a year-old Angora goat, sports a solitary 10-inch horn in the middle of his forehead. His owners claim they bred him using an ancient secret for unicorns, but an animal science professor says the horn is just a rare abnormality. However Lancelot came by his horn, he is proving a popular attraction at Marine World, a combination aquatic park, zoo and amusement park about 20 miles south of San Francisco. Sightseers crowd around his pen to gawk, snap pictures, and touch the fearsome horn that may grow to 2 1/2 feet. ''There's a lot of people who say it's a hoax, that he's just a one-horned goat, a freak, a fluke of nature,'' said Morning Glory, a naturalist who claims to have bred Lancelot with her husband, Otter G'zelle on their home in rural Mendocino County. ''To that we say, meet Lancelot and decide for yourselves,'' she added. ''Lance is the message that wonder and beauty and hope are available, and if you work hard enough, you can have them.'' Lancelot, who has a shaggy white mane and cloven hooves, was produced from Angora goats, which normally have two horns, but that's as far as the naturalists will go in describing the process that spawned him. The unicorn of ancient legend - as depicted in stories and on tapestries - was generally part-horse, part-stag and part-lion, and its horn was considered to have magical powers as an antidote to poison. ''We quite literally stumbled across an ancient secret,'' Morning Glory said, adding that when the process has been patented, they will release it to a scientific journal. ''We have a responsibility as scientists, romanticists and But Dr. Perry Cupps, an animal science professor at the University of California at Davis, who saw Lancelot on television, considers him a ''congenital anomaly'' similar to the legendary one-eyedcyclops. ''The tissue that forms the eye starts to form in the center, then migrates away from the center. The horn does the same thing,'' he said. ''If something happens so the animal doesn't develop normally, then you'd get a central one.'' Cupps said such an abnormality was rare and laughed at the notion that breeders could make it appear consistently. ''Remember that famous fellow who said a sucker is born every minute?'' he added. Sue Watkins, the 21-year-old Marine World animal handler who trained Lancelot, said he is a frisky, intelligent beast who likes to sit on the couch and munch oyster crackers. ''He loves to be in the crowd. Whenever there are lots of people around, and something's happening, he wants to be there,'' said Ms. Watkins, who taught Lance everything he knows. ''He's leash-trained, he can heel, lie down when you tell him to, come to you when you want him to, jump through a hoop, take a bow, rise up on his hind legs,'' she said. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Summary-line: 8-MAY "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #115 *** EOOH *** Date: 5 MAY 1981 0722-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #115 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Friday, 8 May 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 115 Today's Topics: SF Books - NEBULA Awards & Philip K. Dick & Here's the Plot What's the Title, SF Lovers - A Plea for Less Cryptic Messages, SF Movies - Battle of the Titans & Excalibur, SF Topics - Children's stories (Danny Dunn and Mrs. Pickerel and Tom Swift and Space Cat and Alexander Key) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 May 1981 9:01:27 EDT (Thursday) From: Morris Keesan Subject: 1980 Nebula Award Winners BEST NOVEL: TIMESCAPE by Gregory Benford (Simon & Schuster) BEST NOVELLA: "Unicorn Tapestry" by Suzy McKee Charnas (NEW DIMENSIONS 11) BEST NOVELETTE: "The Ugly Chickens" by Howard Waldrop (UNIVERSE 10) BEST SHORT STORY: "Grotto of the Dancing Deer" by Clifford D. Simak (Analog, April 1980) GRAND MASTER AWARD: Fritz Leiber --- New SFWA (Science Fiction Writers' Association) officers: President, Norman Spinrad; Vice President, Marta Randall; Treasurer, Jack Chalker; Secretary, Somtow Sucharitkul; [ The NEBULA awards are given every year to outstanding works of Science fiction by the Science Fiction Writers of America. It and the HUGO awards, given by Science Fiction fans, are the most sought after awards in the genre. -- Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 1981 07:27 PDT From: REDDERSON.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #114 Barry, you may disagree, surely, but I still don't know what TESB is!!! [ TESB stand for The Empire Strikes Back, the second Star Wars film. This is very familar to old readers of the digest for a number of reasons, not the least being the large amount of material concerning this movie, and the entire Star Wars series, which has appeared in the digest (at least 400,000 characters). -- Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 6 May 1981 13:01:49 EDT (Wednesday) From: Ralph Muha Subject: Philip K. Dick, etc. Philip K. Dick? It's about time somebody mentioned his name in connection with cybernetic-SF. From the Macmillan robots of \Solar Lottery/ (who are incapable of distinguishing sex and so address everyone as "Sir or Madam") to the creepy, cold-blooded synthetic humans of \Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?/ to Joe Chip's coin-op apartment in \UBIK/ (imagine your front door demanding a nickle before it allows you to leave!), Dick's work is filled with bizarre creatures, mechanical and synthetic. Actually, mention of Dick's work brings up the topic of humanity in SF (Ward Harriman suggested this sometime ago and was met with a total lack of response--are SF lovers not human?). In his novel, \Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?/, a bounty hunter tracks down renegade androids and "retires" them. The androids are distinguishable from humans only by their failure to pass the Voight-Kampf test, a psychological profile which measures empathy. Eventually, Deckard, the bounty hunter, begins to empathize with the androids. In doing so, he affirms his own humanity but loses his effectiveness in the process. For Dick, it is this quality that is the essence of humanity and it is a central theme in much of his work. Taken as a whole, Dick's work (and there is lots of it) is one of the most varied and crazy collections of ideas in SF. He's touched every subject in one way or another. Parallel worlds (\The Man in the High Castle/, \Now Wait for Last Year/), politics (\Solar Lottery/, \The Simulacra/, \Our Friends from Frolix 8/), madness (\We Can Build You/, \Martian Time-Slip/), drugs (\The Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch/ is the ULTIMATE bad-trip), religion (\Electric Sheep?/, \High Castle/, \A Maze of Death/, \Eye in the Sky/), post-nuclear holocaust (again \Electric Sheep?/, \Dr. Bloodmoney/), the nature of reality (\A Maze of Death/, \UBIK/, \Palmer Eldritch/, \Martian Time-Slip/, \Eye in the Sky/). And of course, his latest mind-boggler, \VALIS/. I know some have referred to it as (if I recall correctly) unmitigated horse-puck, but I wouldn't trade it for all the Niven-Pournelle collaborations in the known universe! (Incidentally, for those of you who have seen "Dark Star", the notion of keeping the dead captain in cold-storage so he can be "revived" periodically to give advice is lifted from Dick's "half-lifers." See \UBIK/ or "What the Dead Men Say.") Getting back to the original subject, cybernetic-SF, I've heard no mention of R. A. Lafferty's wonderful creature, Epiktistes, the Ktistec Machine. More than a computer, Epikt's creation (birth actually) at the Institute for Impure Science is detailed in the somewhat hard-to-find novel \Arrive at Easterwine/. He also appears in several short stories involving the Institute, the best of which is "Thus We Frustrate Charlemagne," in which the members of the Institute, aided by Epikt, attempt to change history with the usual disastrous results. (What can you expect from a Ktistec machine who manifests himself as giant, cigar-smoking serpent's head?) ------------------------------ Date: 6 May 1981 10:04-EDT (Wednesday) From: Andrew G. Malis Subject: Movie trailers The other day, I saw a trailer for "Battle of the Titans", "coming soon to your local theater". Based upon the trailer, stay away! The film evidently is about a conflict between the good guy on a winged horse and the gods of Olympus. Most of the preview consisted of stills of the actors, but it had a few "action shots" complete with "special" effects, which looked absolutely awful. The animation of the miniatures looked jerky and unrealistic and mask edges were easily spotted. (Perhaps its just that I've been spoiled by Lucas & company.) On the other hand, this was followed by a trailer for "Excalibur", which I haven't seen, mostly because of the reviews I've heard and read. However, this trailer really made me WANT to see the film, and I now just may. Andy ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 1981 0010-EDT (Thursday) From: Paul.Hilfinger at CMU-10A (C410PH01) Subject: Danny Dunn and the Homework Machine Ah yes, the mention of Danny Dunn and the Homework Machine a few issues back (V3 #110) brought back fond memories. However, it also seems to have uncovered a bit of creeping senility in my memory processes. I seem to recall that MINIAC failed because the room became too cold, rather than too hot. The printer then started typing stuff that looked like chattering. Hmmm....What computers does anyone know of that fail as a result of temperatures FALLING into the 40-50 degree F range (or whatever it was in the story)? Paul Hilfinger ------------------------------ FIL@MIT-AI 05/06/81 20:46:24 Re: Mrs. Pickerel I read Danny Dunn books when I was younger and enjoyed every one of them. I was wondering if anyone had read any books from another series, written about the same time as DD, about an old woman named Mrs. Pickerel? The two that I can remember (although I'm sure there were more) were: "Mrs. Pickerel goes to Mars" and "Mrs. Pickerel goes to the Antarctic". In the former, Mrs. P awakes one morning to find that the government is building a spaceship in the middle of her pasture (she lives on a farm). She eventually ends up on the ship as it makes its way to Mars, and I can remember a humorous episode during the crew's first meal in zero-g. All I can remember about the second is a description of a white-out, and how different layers of ice have something to with the passage of geological time or something (it was a looong time ago). Anybody else out there heard of the marvelous Mrs. P? P.S. RE: P.K.Dick, I think he's fantastic! (more to come) ------------------------------ Date: 6 May 1981 (Wednesday) 2156-EST From: DYER at NBS-10 Subject: Children's SF, and a "Here's the plot -- what's the title?" The mentioning of THE FORGOTTEN DOOR jarred loose a whole heap of memories of my early reading days. Books like THE SPACESHIP UNDER THE APPLE TREE (author's name long forgotten,) THE FORGOTTEN STAR (no relation to TFD), MISS PICKEREL GOES TO MARS, MISS PICKEREL ON THE OCEAN FLOOR, MISS PICKEREL (ad infinitum), THE SWORD IN THE STONE (by T.H. White), and a rather horrible pulp -- one of the worst stories I've ever had the misfortune to read -- which involved killer bees /on the MOON/, and bunches of rockets that pushed the moon into the sun or something. Thank God I've forgotten the title of /that/ one. Isn't it amazing what a simple keyword will knock loose from our memories? I can recall the plot, but not the title, of a book (perhaps it was two or three related books) involving two young boys and a semi-mad scientist (or was he an astronomer? No matter.) This astronomer had a very special filter fitted to his telescope, and with it he was able to see a green planet orbiting the earth -- a planet that no other astronomer could see without the filter. He convinces the two boys to build a small spaceship out of wood, whereupon he fuels it and sends them to the planet. The ecology of the green planet is into mushrooms -- all sizes -- and green people. The two boys have some sort of adventure, and then return to earth, nearly running their "Oxygen urn" dry on the trip back. The astronomer disappears mysteriously, along with the street that he lived on. A possible title -- THE MUSHROOM PLANET -- springs to mind, but I don't know the author, and I don't know whether or not there were any sequels. Can anyone remember the name and author of this work? Thanks, -Landon- [ The title definitely has MUSHROOM PLANET in it, although I am inclined to think it was called A VISIT (or VOYAGE) TO THE MUSHROOM PLANET. Now if I can only find those old books of mine... -- Jim ] ------------------------------00 KWH@MIT-AI 05/06/81 19:46:28 Re: Tom Swift There is an "electronic brain" which translates the aliens messages in one TSjr (Tom Swift Jr.). Also, I think he had onboard computers on this spaceships... To old memories, Ken Haase ------------------------------ ACW@MIT-AI 05/06/81 15:36:54 Re: Space Cat, and Alexander Key novels. You people are really twanging rusty neurons in this foggy skull of mine. Alexander Key did not write the Space Cat novels. They were the work of Ruthven Todd. I do not know the sex of Mx. Todd. The Space Cat books are: 1) Space Cat: Astronaut adopts cat, takes cat with him on first flight to the moon. Moon turns out to be inhabited by para-sentient bubble-like creatures. Cat repairs astronaut's space helmet with a piece of lunar clover. 2) Space Cat goes to Venus: I forget what he finds there. Telepathic plants, perhaps. 3) Space Cat on Mars: Meets a beautiful female Martian cat, named Moofa if memory serves. 4) Space Cat and the Kittens: The original Space Cat and his family participate in the first interstellar expedition, to a planet of Alpha Centauri. There are miniature dinosaurs there. Getting back to Alexander Key: besides "The Forgotten Door", this author wrote two other sub-juveniles that I know of: "Sprockets, a Little Robot" and "Sprockets and Rivets". Oh, I just remembered a third, but I don't think I ever read it: "Bolts, a Robot Dog". Key's robot stories borrow Asimov's laws. I don't remember their plots except that there was a kind professor and some random aliens with a flying saucer. ---Wechsler ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Summary-line: 9-MAY "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #116 *** EOOH *** Date: 9 MAY 1981 0722-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #116 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Saturday, 9 May 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 116 Today's Topics: SF Lovers - A Plea for Less Cryptic Messages, SF Books - Shatterday & Philip K. Dick & Danse Macabre, SF Movies - The Great Turkey Debate (The Monster From the Surf and The Creature From the Haunted Sea) & TRON, SF Topics - Children's stories (Peter Graves and 5000 Balloons), Spoiler - Star Wars ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 May 1981 1604-EDT (Friday) From: Paul.Hilfinger at CMU-10A (C410PH01) Subject: Acronyms The recent discussion of how cryptic our SF-LOVERS jargon can look to outsiders reminded me of a mildly humorous encounter between the two cultures (in C. P. Snow's sense). During my undergraduate days (so very long ago), I worked at our Computation Center, known to its denizens as "the CC," naturally enough. One of the resident Field Engineers, or FEs, bore the nickname Dancing Bare (yes, sic), or DB, for reasons that I won't go into here. I should shame-facedly add that we used IBM equipment. One evening, a couple of my cohorts were talking shop in the presence of one of their roommates, who happened to be an English major. The name DB came up several times, leading to the following exchange with the roommate: Roommate: Who is DB? Cohort: DB is the IBM FE down at the CC. Paul Hilfinger ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 81 17:35-PDT From: mclure at Sri-Unix Subject: more on Ellison's Shatterday I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of short story collections in which I've liked practically every story. Shatterday is one of them. Run, don't walk, when it comes out in paperback. ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 1981 08:08-EDT From: Robert W. Kerns Subject: PKDick00 One reason I never comment on PK Dick's stories is that I am seldom able to speak coherently after reading one of them. They seem to have some strange some effect on the thought processes not unlike Gumout in the carburator. The guy is pretty proliferic. I suspect this is the result of psychosis; I can just picture him madly chuckling with glee at all the wierd stuff he gives his readers. Some days he's a little tired, and on those days he gets a little obscure, but most of the time he is simply manic, and his writing is, well, mind blowing. He must have been recouping his strength after an extreme manic phase when he collaborated with Zelazny in their novel about a post-holocost world (title: forgotten, sigh), but when he wrote UBIK his mad genius was at the peak of its contagion. On my last trip home, my mother mentioned that she always used to read the SF books I would read, just so she'd "know what kind of stuff I was reading". We were in the local (tiny) town library, and were looking at the (pitiful) SF collection at the time, and lo, there was UBIK! I recommended that she read it. (I recommend that you read it too). To give you a little more background, my mother grew up in a sod house in South Dakota, married a preacher, had 4 kids, went back to school to become an art teacher, and has never done any drugs in her life. I thought it would be an interesting experiment, not unlike putting LSD in the drinking water of a small town and seeing what happened. Anyway, she read it that night. She's usually quite lucid, but she had a hard time telling me what she thought of it. "Very interesting, different" was about as close as she got. I guess I've never heard a description of an acid trip that I thought sounded half-way right, either, so I guess I was expecting too much in the way of a verbal reaction. She did get sort of a funny look on her face when I knocked over the aerosol can of UIBK, er, hair-spray, though. ------------------------------ Date: 04 May 1981 0148-PDT From: Jim McGrath Subject: King book reviewed by Algis Budrys By Algis Budrys (c) 1981 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service) DANSE MACABRE. By Stephen King. Everest House. $13.95 (Algis Budrys covers speculative, fantasy and pulp fiction for the Chicago Sun-Times.) Stephen King's editor got the idea it would be good to have a book on horror films and stories from the author of ''Carrie,'' ''Salem's Lot'' and ''The Shining.'' Here it is. King actually does teach literature to college students. Furthermore, as this book proceeds, taking the form of an essay laced with autobiography, it becomes clear that his motivations go beyond slitting the public purse and that his attraction to his genre is00 genuine. If he catapulted to best-seller stardom while still in his 20s-born in 1947, he has now sold more than 25 million copies-it would be hard to find someone who deserves it more, granting that anyone deserves it at all. That grant comes from the public, of course. King is correct in reinforcing his editor's notion that the taste for horrifics is universal and goes back to the earliest storytellers. Some of us might not attend a drive-in showing of ''Texas Chainsaw Massacre,'' but we're not reluctant to curl up with a suitably anthologized ''The Graveyard Rats'' by Ray Bradbury, for all its origins in a grubby horror-pulp magazine. King's stated intention is to address and dissect this phenomenon, and he returns frequently to why it is we're attracted as much as we're repelled by tales not merely of bloodshed but of victims at the mercy of vast, entrapping forces. But while his discourse cites example after example, displaying an impressive acquaintance with horror-creators as diverse as Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley and Brian De Palma or David Cronenberg, there's also a sense that King is attempting to justify how a former laundry worker can be transformed overnight into a prosperous celebrity. Here is young Stephen King stepping off the first class flight to Hollywood, and the bank, and freedom forever from all mundane accountabilities. And yet there is this sense that King is not free to himself. He put together ''Danse Macabre'' by rewriting some of his academic and formal essays and interspersing them with what reads like dictated rumination. His style veers from the New Sincere-ie., gut frankness is indicated by the interjection of gutter obscenity-to the undergraduate insightful: ''In the confrontation between Cornthwaite and the hulking Arness (in ''The Thing'') there is a subtext which suggests Chamberlain and Hitler.'' But part of the time the thinking is both clear and clearly stated: ''...in the final sense, the horror movie is the celebration of those who feel they can examine death because it does not yet live in their own hearts.'' That's a buyable hypothesis-the feast of horror as a celebration of life. If King had stayed with that, or any other one line, and developed it, we'd have here a valuable master's dissertation, not necessarily definitive but from a noteworthy source. King goes on to propose, however, without quite mentioning ''Steppenwolf,'' that inside each of us is a monster, and we know it secretly. That's in some ways a conflicting thesis. Then, toward the end of his presentation, he abruptly declares that though the wolf-mask lurks behind the pious face, under that is the innocent wondering child, burning trapped scorpions (as in ''The Wild Bunch,'' a reference King screws up slightly) not out of sadism but out of curiosity with morality. OK, but now suppose that under that there's another wolf. And under that ... and under that ... What's inside your thesis, Professor? Well, another thesis. And so on, to no conclusion. What I'm powerfully reminded of is the inconfident young instructor, a familiar academic phenomenon. All pipe smoke and paradigms one moment, hip and with aside references to sweet wine and roach clips the next, casting about for his students' social approval-not teaching, but being a teacher-person. Somewhere in there is the genuine thinking individual, feeling, but not yet full grown and ready to emerge. And under that, the money. And under that, the denial of money. And under that.... ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 1981 22:41:31-PDT From: eagle!mhtsa!duke!unc!tyg at Berkeley Subject: Trix or Treat MATRIX? Come now! Also, unless i'm mistaken, the Varley story 'Persistence of Vision' is in his SS collection of the same name which includes 'Hall of the Martian Kings'. I don't know of a collection by him entitled the latter. Also, according to the latest F&SF(magazine), a new short by him will be published in the next few months. ------------------------------ DEVON@MIT-MC 05/06/81 22:41:29 Re: Kicks are for Trids I think I'll complain to my senatron. ------------------------------ Date: 6 May 1981 0655-PDT (Wednesday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: Monsters, Parties, and "Peter Graves" The movie recently described regarding a monster attacking beachgoing teenagers sounds suspiciously like "The Monster From the Surf". It certainly matches the description in terms of overall "quality". The only horror film I know of with the title "Mad Party" is "Mad Monster Party" -- which was a stop-action animation feature starring the voice of Boris Karloff. A rather amusing film, actually. In a similar vein to "The Monster From the Surf", we must not forget "The Creature From the Haunted Sea". This one is definitely played for laughs. It involves a "secret agent" in post-Castro- revolutionary Cuba. A group of people are attempting to get off the island with a bunch of money they stole from the treasury. One member of the party tries to scare off the others by creating a phoney sea monster. He creates bizarre footprints with a toilet plunger and red paint, and leaves strips of seaweed and stuff laying around. Whattayaknow -- a real sea monster shows up that matches the footprints! Strictly slapstick, but a true collector's item. Moving right along to our literary department, does anyone out there remember a book (juvenile SF type) called "Peter Graves"? This involved a man who had invented an anti-gravity metal and had all sorts of strange uses for it. In one segment, he builds a ball that has an antigravity core but an outer layer of "regular" matter. It bounces a little bit higher with each bounce, kinda escapes, and causes tremendous damage. I recall this as being a very entertaining book at the time. Another entry in our juvenile SF department involves a book called, I THINK, "5000 balloons". Or maybe it was "500", or something like that. A balloonist in the late 19th (?) Century is blown off course to an island where a society has set up an amazing technology based on balloons, steam power, and fantastic mechanical devices. I recall chairs and tables popping out of the floor, a bed that automatically changed itself (the sheets fed into slots in the floor and were cleaned by a device underneath), and a wide variety of other similar items. Does anyone out there remember a book like this? I think I enjoyed it very much, many years ago. Enough for now. Remember: "A clean disk is a happy disk. So clean all that nasty oxide off all your disks, today!" --Lauren-- ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 1981 08:06:16-PDT From: ihnss!hobs at Berkeley From: ucbvax!ihnss!hobs (John Hobson) Re: Bad SF movies Lauren made a rather witty description of that classic turkey "Invasion of the Star Creatures". To those interested in the subject of bad films, I wish to recommend two books: The Fifty Worst Films of All Time by Harry Medved with Randy Dreyfuss (Popular Library, 1978) and The Golden Turkey Awards by Harry and Michael Medved (Putnam, 1980) These books celebrate such great stinkers as "Invasion of the Star Creatures", "Santa Claus Conquers the Martians", "The Creeping Terror", "Robot Monster", "Teenagers from Outer Space", "The Incredibly Strange Creatures Who Stopped Living and Became Mixed-Up Zombies", and many more. Their choice for worst movie of all time (and I fully concur with this choice) is: (breathless pause) "Plan Nine from Outer Space". If you have never seen this all-time dog, petition your local TV station (the one, usually an independent, which shows monster movies every Saturday night) to present it. The only comment that I will make about it is to quote John Brosnan, author of "The Horror People": "Plan Nine is so \fIvery\fR bad that it exerts a certain fascination. It appears to have been made in somebody's garage." It also has the distinction of being the last film Bela Lugosi ever appeared in (he died just after filming started, and was replaced by the director's [the late, great Edward D. Wood, Jr., whom the Medved brothers select as worst director of all time] unemployed chiropractor, a man 10" taller than Lugosi, with medium brown hair. Wood felt that if the man held his cape over his face, the audience would never suspect.). May your disks never crash, John Date: 7 May 1981 (Thursday) 2050-PST From: DWS at LLL-MFE Subject: Another "BLACK HOLE" in the making Walt Disney Studios were here at Lawrence Livermore Labs this week doing some location work for an upcoming movie called "TRON", staring Jeff Bridges as a folksy programmer who lets a program run wild, or something of the sort. Disney needed some high tech locations, so they arranged to do some shots in the MFE computer center (with lots of blinking lights and whirring disks in the background) and around the Shiva laser project (with lots of laser type lights and little men in white suits running about). The lab probably figured that it could use some good publicity. Anyway, the filming was sort of a kick to watch. Unfortunately, nobody was able to hear any of the dailog. Oh well ... Dave ------------------------------ JPM@MIT-AI 5/9/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last in the digest. It speculates on future plot developments in the Star Wars saga, especially the upcoming movie Revenge of the Jedi. Those unfamilar (or even familar) with the Star Wars saga may not wish to read any further. ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 1981 1408-PDT From: CHRIS at RAND-AI Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #115 RE: TESB and SW (this requires a super spoiler warning) My sources, who shall remain anonymous, inform me that one of the early drafts for the "Revenge of the Jedi" has the following plot: Luke returns to Degobah to complete his training as a Jedi. When he finishes, he and Leia join Chewy and Lando to rescue Han from the spice mines of Kessel where Jabba the Hut has sold Han into slavery. Lando (and, sob, the Millenium Falcon) are destroyed during the getaway. Luke then fights Vader, but can't kill his own father, so Leia does it for him. Luke then fights the Emperor, and finishes him off. Presumably somewhere along the line, Yoda, Ben or Leia tell Luke about his parentage. My best guess for the next three movies about the restoration of the republic is that they will involve a quest for a thingamabob to control the Force for good. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Summary-line: 10-MAY "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #117 *** EOOH *** Date: 10 MAY 1981 0722-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #117 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS PM Digest Sunday, 10 May 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 117 Today's Topics: SF Contest - Movie title (Air Raid => ?), SF Books - Deus Irae, SF Movies - Heavy Metal & Millennium, SF TV - Battle Beyond the Stars & Saturn III, SF Music - The Music of the Cosmos, SF Topics - Children's stories (Danny Dunn and Generation Gaps and Mrs. Pickerel and Space Cat and Mushroom Planet and Here's the Plot What's the Title) & Children's TV (The Space Explorers and New Adventures of the Space Explorers) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 May 1981 04:15:42-PDT From: decvax!duke!unc!tyg at Berkeley Subject: SF Movies and Dick NBC will be showing Battle Beyond the Stars and Saturn III next season for those of us who still bother to watch TV. Also, the title of the Dick/Zelazny collaboration is Deus Irae. tom galloway ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 1981 13:41:39 EDT (Sunday) From: Morris Keesan Subject: Dick/Zelazny collaboration The Philip K. Dick/Roger Zelazny collaborative novel about a post-holocaust Earth is "Deus Irae". I started reading it once, and didn't get very far. From my vague memory of it, and from the title, it seems to be somewhat religious in topic. ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 1981 (Thursday) 2209-EST From: DYER at NBS-10 Subject: Things to come, and a contest A two record collection of the music from Carl Sagan's COSMOS series on PBS has been -- or soon will be -- released as THE MUSIC OF THE COSMOS. It includes the Pachelbel (sp?) Kannon, cuts from Vangelis' ALBEDO .39 and HEAVEN AND HELL, and who knows what else!? Unfortunately I am putting this down from memory; from a few paragraphs I saw in a U of MD newspaper about a week ago. I don't know the company who put the collection out, and I don't know when it is coming out. btw [ /B/y /T/he /W/ay for the incognostici who read this -- now you know] HEAVY METAL, an animated film of obvious origin, is coming out sometime in August. Also, John Varley's short story AIR RAID (from the collection THE PERSISTENCE OF VISION) is about one million dollars into production as a movie. Actually, as Varley explained in his GoH speech at Balticon last month, one million dollars doesn't mean a whole lot. It means that there is a story treatment, and that the preliminary drafts of the script have been written and reviewed. The movie will come out with the title MILLENNIUM -- evidently the producers liked that name better. But, as Varley also explained, MILLENNIUM is too good a title to waste on a mere movie -- he is currently writing a book that he wants to call MILLENNIUM. He has tried and tried to come up with a better name -- and one that the producers will like /better/ -- but to no avail. So there is a contest; to the person who sends in a name that catches the producer's fancy will go a prize -- a free trip to Hollywood to see the debut of the movie. [Varley pointed out that the offer is good only if the producers change the name of the movie from MILLENNIUM to something else.] Send your entries to : JOHN VARLEY 1755 MISTLETOE EUGENE, OREGON, 97402 And it would probably be a good idea to mark your entry as 'contest' or something, so he can put it in a pile with all the other entries. Good luck. [And whatever you do -- **DON'T** mention SF-LOVERS!!!!] -Landon- [ I'd simply like to re-enforce that last remark - please, by no means mention the existence of SF-LOVERS in this, or any correspondence with the outside world. -- Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 1981 00:59-EDT From: Dale R. Worley Subject: Danny Dunn and the Homework Machine If I remember correctly, the Machine got cold because some urchin who had a grudge against the heroes turned the thermostat down on the heating system. ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 1981 04:49-EDT From: Owen T. Anderson Subject: Danny Dunn and the Homework Machine We have a computer where I work that fails if it gets too cold. It doesn't seem to work if the temperature gets below around 70F. No one really knows why. Needless to say though it is not hard to keep it at 80 or 90. It is a homebrew affair made out of wire wrapped ECL 10K. ------------------------------ DP@MIT-ML 05/08/81 15:55:04 Re: Computers need warm. The IBM 1620 would fail if it got too cold. in fact, it had built in heaters. when you turned it on in the morning a small "thermal" light would glow, and you had to wait 5-10 minuites to use the machine. (i didn't belive it either, but it really was that way.) Jeff ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 1981 1729-PDT Sender: LEAVITT at USC-ISI Subject: Kiddy SF From: Mike Leavitt OK, you've all got my goat. Not only do I not remember DD, but I never heard of him until the recent messages. Perhaps this really is an age thing. I'm well into to untrustworthy side of 30. Could those of you who are interested in this issue send me brief messages such as "I do/don't remember, I am N years old." I will tally and report back to the group. Please hurry, before senility sets in, though. Mike ------------------------------ Date: 9 MAY 1981 0030-PDT From: FORWARD at USC-ECL Subject: Generation Gaps Miss Pickerelll and Danny Dunn are alive and in print. After reading the last few SF-LOVERS I was surprised to find the following brand new book lying on my living room floor. MISS PICKERELLL ON THE MOON by Ellen MacGregor and Dora Pantell Miss Pickerelll's beloved cow and kitten are sick, stricken by a strange disease that is attacking the animals in Square Toe County. When Miss Pickerelll hears about the possible discovery of new spores on the moon that might help cure the disease, nothing will stop her from going all the way to the moon herself! "What do we do now?" Miss Pickerelll asked in an awe-struck voice. "We wait," Foster said. "The base is bound to track us down. They'll send a rescue ship." Miss Pickerelll tried to push the thought out of her head, but she could not help remembering about the oxygen packs. Forty minutes was the limit that she, Foster, and her cat, Pumpkins, could remain on the moon's surface and survive... (From the author's page) Ellen MacGregor was born in Baltimore, Maryland. She created Miss Pickerelll in the early 1950's and wrote four stories about her, as well as boxes full of notes for future adventures. She died in 1954, and not until 1964, after a long search, did Miss P. finally find Dora Pantell. Dora Pantell has been writing "something" for as long as she can remember. She says that she most enjoys writing the Miss Pickerelll adventures. There are now twelve titles in the series, all available in Archway Paperback editions. (From the "ad" page.) POCKET BOOKS Archway Paperbacks Other Titles you will enjoy: 29983 Danny Dunn and the Smallifying Machine 29984 Danny Dunn, Invisible Boy 29985 Danny Dunn, Scientific Detective ($1.50 each) (If your bookseller does not have them, send retail price, plus $0.50 for postage and handling to: Mail Service Dept, Pocket Books, 1230 Ave. of Americas, NY, NY 10020.) (The book I am copying this from has the following warning on the inside cover.) THIS BOOK IS MINE AN' YOU CAN'T HAVE IT! EVE So I have to return it to her bedroom right away. Bob Forward (I have read Tom Swift and the early Campbell, Asimov, and Clement works, but never Miss Pickerelll or Danny Dunn. A sad case of generation gap, I guess.) ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 1981 1338-PDT (Friday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: juvenile SF, etc. I was just about to mention "Visit to the Mushroom Planet" (I **THINK** that's what it was called)! That was a fun one -- especially where the boys build a spaceship from parts found around their homes -- shame on you NASA! It was in this novel that I first learned the limerick: There once was a lady named Bright, Who could travel much faster than light. She left home one day, In a relative way, And returned home the previous night. I believe there were some sequels to the first novel, by the way. And indeed -- I remember our good friend Miss Pickerel. In "Miss Pickerel goes to Mars", she has been away from home on a trip for some number of months. It is when she returns that she finds a spaceship in her field and people living in her house. When she climbs into the ship to tell the people to leave, they assume their last crewmember is aboard, and just take off! Oh yes, MINIAC in "Danny Dunn and the Homework Machine" did indeed fail when the room got too cold. Poor Danny was in a rush to get a report done, and just stood up in class and read it out loud without pre-reading it. Very embarrassing. --Lauren-- ------------------------------ PCR@MIT-MC 05/08/81 07:54:50 Re: space cat Re: all these old SF stories: I must have missed the Danny Dunn stories, and even as a little hacker, I thought Tom Swift was a load of junk, but when the Space Cat series was mentioned, my mind went "BOOOOONNG" as the memories flooded back. Incredible! Didn't the cat and his owner each have a piece of telepathic moss in an amulet so they could communicate with eachother? As I recall, the moss (which was intelligent as well) lived on the special water found on the surface of Venus, and so the human got a gallon jug to take back to earth. yours in nostalgia, ...phil ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 1981 1304-PDT From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE Subject: space cat Thanks for correcting me about the Space Cat books. By the way, when I said Alexander was the author, I meant Lloyd Alexander, author of the Taran (land of Prydain) series. I guess he must have written the Time Cat series, instead. --cat ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 1981 17:27:29 EDT (Friday) From: Morris Keesan Subject: Miscellany First, I should correct myself. Of course, SFWA stands for Science Fiction Writers of America, not Science Fiction Writers' Association. I was trying not to be cryptic (bearing in mind recent complaints), and unfortunately ended up doing acronym expansion with my brain turned off. --- There is a series (::= at least 3) of Mushroom Planet books. The scientist/astronomer was named Tycho Bass (or Tyco Bass), and he wasn't semi-mad, merely alien and fungoid. I remember reading all of these when I was younger, borrowing them from the public library. The first book, at least, was still in print a year or so ago. I came across it while browsing in my local children's book store. The author is a woman whose first name begins with 'C', and she also wrote THE GARDEN OF STONE CHILDREN. When I go home, I'll look it up, and report more details if no one beats me to it. --- Ruthven (pronounced 'Rivven') is a man's name. --- Maybe Alexander Key didn't write the Space Cat books, but Lloyd Alexander wrote a book called TIME CAT, about a boy time-travelling with the help of his cat. ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 1981 11:59:22-EDT From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Hooray for nostalgia! Some of us were reminiscing about the mushroom planet just the other day. I've heard that there were ultimately five books in the series, but I only have seen the first two: The Wonderful Flight to the Mushroom Planet Stowaway to the Mushroom Planet by Eleanor Cameron. And Miss Pickerel! Yes, I remember the space ship, and a few others. There are some coming into the MITSFS now which I'm sure are new; they're credited to MacGregor and Pantell, which suggests that (like the later Conan books) they've been developed from scraps---there's one about a weather space station. . . . The space cat on Venus encountered this nasty thing that was plant-like except that it walked (albeit slowly) and was carnivorous; they had a heroic battle. Ruthven is normally a man's name (cf Gilbert&Sullivan's RUDDIGORE and the Scottish and vampire novels that it developed from) but it could easily be a pseudonym chosen for its anonymity---children's publishing is even weirder than the core of the publishing industry. And does anyone remember the morning TV shows? I was so annoyed because they always ran "The Space Explorers" and "New Adventures of the Space Explorers" (good animated series, for that time) when I was in school and couldn't see them unless I was out sick (or worse, started them during Spring vacation, so I had to go back to school just when some crisis was coming up). That \\long// ramp takeoff sequence!. . . ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 1981 1249-PDT From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE Subject: mushroom planet and here's the plot I agree: what a wonderful set of memories this discussion is bringing up! The Mushroom Planet books are by Eleanor Cameron. I think the first is called The Wonderful Visit to the Mushroom Planet, approximately. There were three or four in the series, as I recall, one of the others titled "Time and Mr. Bass". (Mr. Bass is the character with the special filter on his telescope.) The books are terrific and quite rereadable at a later age (unlike L'Engle's A Wrinkle in Time, which I loved in fourth grade but find unconvincing now.) However, some of Cameron's other books are those annoying pseudo- fantasies where half way through you think something magical is going on, but it all gets explained at the end. (Hooray for Ms. Pickerel!) This reminds me of an sf book that I really liked when I was younger. I found it disappointingly trite when I reread it some years later. It \might/ have been by Nourse. The basic idea of it was that scientists created a cubical hole in space that was a passageway to another parallel universe. I think it was easy to get disoriented if you looked into the cube. There was something about parallel lines intersecting in three places, and things tasting blue if you entered it. A woman from one of the Earths appears in the Manhatten of the other wearing nothing but a pocketbook... does anyone recognize the book from this hazy sketch? good reading, --cat ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Summary-line: 11-MAY "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #118 *** EOOH *** Date: 11 MAY 1981 0722-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #118 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Monday, 11 May 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 118 Today's Topics: SF Books - Here's the Plot What's the Title, SF Topics - Physics Today (breathable water) & Children's stories (Lucky Starr and Juveniles in Print query and Mushroom Planet) & Children's TV (Captain Video & Tales of Tomorrow) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 May 1981 13:55:34 EDT (Sunday) From: Morris Keesan Subject: Here's the plot, what's the title My wife remembers a book about some people somewhere in Scandinavia who did sort of a Steve Allen "Meeting of the Minds" shtick. They would put a piece of paper with someone's name on it under the paw of a stone lion in front of their library, and would then get that person home for dinner. Among the people they met were St. Nicholas, the lost children from Hamelin, and various real historical people (politicians/statesmen, composers, scientists, etc.). The lion was destroyed by bombs during World War 2, so they couldn't continue their dinner parties. Has anyone heard of this one? ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 1981 (Saturday) 2319-EDT From: SHRAGE at WHARTON-10 (Jeffrey Shrager) Subject: Rebma and breathable water In Zelazny's Amber series there is a city under water called Rebma [so as not to incur a spoiler, I'll not speak more of the city in particular]. There are a whole slew of funny properties to the water around Rebma; it is breathable, it does not bouy people [or seem to do so in some weird manner] and it doesn't exert the pressure that water would. Now, in terms of breathability, I recall having seen a news paper article in which a scientist had developed a liquid that was breathable for animals [and, supposedly, humans]. The article had this rather neat picture of a cat suspended in the liquid. I never heard anything about it since. It is my understanding that the only reason that we can't breath water is not that our lungs won't extract the oxygen from it -- they will! Rather, our system cannot pump water in and out of the lungs fast enough to get the oxygen we need. I think that this "breathable" liquid was very (what? -- non-viscous?) thin so that it could be pumped by the lungs. If that is the case, might it exhibit the properties that the water does in Rebma? Anyone ever seen the article that I am thinking of? What ever became of that wonderful fluid and... what conceivable use might it be? [ The liquid in question was developed by scientists at Union Carbide quite some time ago (over 20 years). It can support life because However, the name slips me, as does the chemical base used. -- Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 1981 0823-MDT From: FISH at UTAH-20 (Russ Fish) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #115 Ah yes, the memories come back of juvenile SF, don't they? A series not yet mentioned is the "Lucky Starr" (on Venus, Mars, Asteroid Belt, etc. etc.) series written under the pen name of Paul French, I think. That was lucky for me, because The Good Doctor was out of reach at that early time of my life. (Asimov was at the TOP of a library shelf, and I was only in second grade and not that tall.) Generalizing well, I noticed the little spaceships on the spines of the books, and grabbed others in reach. Result: Norton, Nourse, & Heinlein at first. Certainly made an impression. Re: Voyage to the Mushroom Planet, or whatever. It sounds \real/ familiar, enough so that I advance this memory: I recall that the two kids had a pet chicken with them. Part of the adventure involved saving the population of the planet. (Of course.) Seems they were all dying from \something/, which the boys diagnosed as a lack of the trace of the element sulphur. Luckily, the yolk of hard-boiled eggs contains sulphur, and the planet was saved and so on. The biochemical details were probably not handled any more realistically than the propulsive ones, but then, how many 7-year-olds read ANALOG? Cheers! -Russ ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 1981 12:24 edt From: Greenwald.INP at MIT-Multics Subject: MUSHROOM PLANET title query I believe it was "Mr. and the Mushroom Planet" - and there was a sequel. I don't remember anything about it, except the shelf in the public library upon which it rested 15+ years ago. Aaaahh, and it had a green cover. Does that help? Jog your memory? - Mike Greenwald was some name related to Tycho, or Brahe, or Mushroom - sorry I'm so vague. I think his brother shows up in the sequel. ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 1981 1641-EDT From: Steve Strassmann Subject: The Mushroom Planet books I don't remember the titles to the mushroom planet books, but I remember there were several of them. The boys first heard about the short, bald professor by noticing a green ad in a black & white newspaper, and visiting his 'lab' on a nearby street that never existed. Upon landing on the planet, they found themselves naturally thinking and speaking in the alien language (only to forget the language upon return to Earth). ------------------------------ KWH@MIT-AI 05/09/81 01:17:56 Re: Mushroom Planet I don't remember the authors of the Mushroom planet books (I think there may have been two authors but I am not sure at all. There were at least two sequels to it, with some interesting psionic type stuff involved involved in the later ones. The later ones took place both on the Mushroom planet and in Wales- I remember liking them- Both Tom Swift and Danny Dunn have come out, in part, in paperback recently, but I don't remember who published them. Speaking of juvenile paperbacks, does anyone now if any publishing house puts out paperbacks of Alan Nourse juveniles? I have very fond memories of them being one of my reading staples- Cheers, Ken Haase ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 1981 1549-PDT From: CSD.EYNON at SU-SCORE Subject: Mushroom Planet Talk of old memories - I too remember reading this series (I think there were at least three books), but I didn't become conscious of author names until long after my youthful rampages through the local library's SF collection. The salient feature which I remember is that in every book, as the boys are traveling in the space ship to the green planet, they acquire the ability to speak and write in the Mushroom language, and lose the ability to speak English. They then proceed to have all sorts of adventures, during which they keep detailed written records, acquire books, etc, but on returning home, they always find that what they wrote now looks like "chicken tracks". I also seem to remember that the gnomish astronomer who sends the boys to the planet is really a mushroom person himself (oops, hope I don't get a spoiler)... -Barry ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 1981 20:40:36-PDT From: decvax!duke!phs!dennis at Berkeley I seem to recall the first one being named "Mr Bass's Planetoid" or something like that. The sequels were "Return to the Mushroom Planet" or some variants thereof. The inhabitants of the planetoid (little people of a fungus variety) were dying of a lack of trace elements; it turns out that they needed sulfur, and the boys accompanying Mr. Bass on the journey carried along hard-boiled eggs for provisions. One of the boys recognized the smell of the egg yolks as the same as that remaining around the mineral springs which formerly supplied the sulfur. A flourishing trade was set up. One of the boys' families had chickens. Yes, there were three or so of the books; at the end of the second one, Mr Bass blew away in a gale, apparently in some way relating to sporing. (spoiler?) Mr Bass was descended from inhabitants of this planetoid, it seems. In the third book, a relative comes to call for him and gets told he blew away. This was taken rather calmly, but I don't recall any of the following events. ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 1981 0833-PDT (Friday) From: Mike at UCLA-SECURITY (Michael Urban) Subject: Mushrooms You are probably going to get a LOT of comments on the "Mushroom Planet" books, but here goes. These books are very popular, and still spoken of well by local fantasy fans, at least. If memory serves, there are at least three books in the series (and I heard rumors of another written several years later): Voyage to the Mushroom Planet, a sequel (Return to the Mushroom Planet?), and Mr. Bass's Planetoid. Mr. Bass was the astronomer with the remarkable "stroboscopic polarization" (or something like that) filter. As he was from the Mushroom Planet, I seem to recall him floating away like a spore on the wind at the end. Or something. My only other memory is that a major plot element was a dietary deficiency on the planet solved by supplying them with an egg-laying hen. Ah, as I write this, another title springs to mind, probably the correct title for the middle book: Stowaway to the Mushroom Planet. The author of these books is named Cameron. Her first name is, uh...Eleanor? Mike ------------------------------ ACW@MIT-AI 05/08/81 16:24:43 Re: Mushroom Planet Books. You're going to get lots of responses to this one. [ True, as you can all undoubtably see! -- Jim ] The Mushroom Planet series was written by Eleanor Cameron. The first one was called "The Wonderful Flight to the Mushroom Planet". The premise of the whole series is that the Earth has a tiny invisible moon orbiting fifty thousand miles out, whose name I forget. It has an indigenous sentient species of great antiquity. At some time a branch of the race started out on earth, possibly by spore migration across the intervening space. The series concerns, among other things, the rejoining of the long sundered branches of this race. ---Wechsler. PS. If anybody owns copies of any of these books, you can do the world a big favor by donating them to MITSFS, which I believe has a big gap on the shelves where these goodies ought to be. That goes for Space Cat and Key's robot stories as well. MITSFS: (617) 225-9144. The World's Largest Science Fiction Lending Library. ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 1981 1408-PDT From: CHRIS at RAND-AI Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #115 RE: Mushroom Planet The book you are thinking of is The Wonderful Voyage/Journey to the Mushroom Planet, by Elizabeth Cameron, and is the first of about 5 books related to the Spore people who live on the planet and their relatives on earth. Other titles in the series (I can't remember all of them) were Mr. Bass's Planetoid and Time and Mr. Bass. The last one mentioned has the heroes of book one camping out with Mr. Bass amid the ruins of Stonehenge and links the disappearance of Mr. Bass's spore people relatives to King Arthur and some Welsh mythology. ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 1981 13:45:58 EDT (Sunday) From: Morris Keesan Subject: Mushroom Planet The Mushroom Planet books are by Eleanor Cameron. The one I have is "Stowaway to the Mushroom Planet", copyright 1956 by Eleanor Cameron. My copy was published by Scholastic Book Services. The first book was "The Wonderful Flight to the Mushroom Planet". I think there are other sequels, but I'm not sure. (Note: At least I got the 'C' right, even if it's in her last name and not her first). Ms. Cameron's other books that I know of are "The Court of the Stone Children" (not "Garden"), which is borderline fantasy, and "A Room Made of Windows", which is mainstream fiction. Both are juveniles. The name of the Mushroom Planet is Basidium, and Chuck and Dave's astronomer friend was Tyco Bass. This brings to mind another book I read eons ago about children going off in a spaceship they made. All I remember about it is that they wore clothespins on their noses so that they could breathe in outer space. They even put a clothespin on their dog's nose. Anyone remember this one? ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 1981 05:42:32-PDT From: decvax!duke!unc!bch at Berkeley Subject: SF on early television Good Grief! Mrs. Pickerell no less! I remember those books quite fondly but with some despair as they remind me that I am not as young as I once was. As long as we are taking trips down memory lane, does anyone out there actually \remember/ Captain Video on the old DUMONT network out of New York, or "Tales of Tomorrow," a live TV precursor to the later anthologies such as "The Outer Limits" and "Twilight Zone." I still occasionally have nightmares about an invisible insect-like creature found in the Amazon Jungles which featured prominently in a number of episodes. (Actually, they did a number of fairly good pieces by serious authors such as Bradbury as well as the more usual 1950's BEM [Bug Eyed Monster] genre.) Perhaps it is only hindsight, but it seems to me that television and radio in the late '40s and '50s had a great deal more, and better (although that isn't saying much) SF than now. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Summary-line: 12-MAY "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #119 *** EOOH *** Date: 12 MAY 1981 0722-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #119 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Tuesday, 12 May 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 119 Today's Topics: SF Contest - Movie title (Air Raid => ?), SF Books - The Forgotten Door & "High Yield Bondage" & Covered Wagon Stories (Time Enough For Love), SF TV - Body Human: The Bionic Breakthrough, SF Topics - Physics Today (breathable water) & Children's TV (Captain Video and the Video Rangers and Astroboy) & Children's stories (Peter Graves and 500 Balloons and Title query answered) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 11 May 1981 10:28:14-EDT From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Varley contest Dyer didn't quote Varley quite correctly; despite the fact that it got a big push as a mundane book, Varley respects Ben Bova's MILLENNIUM and doesn't want to have to step on/compete with/walk under it for the title. Since the novelization pretty much has to have the same title as the movie, that leads to problems. . . . (Incidentally, the current script starts after the short story and refers to it only in brief flashbacks.) ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 1981 2156-PDT From: Jim McGrath Subject: TV Tonight (Tuesday, May 12) BODY HUMAN For body buffs, here's another in that super sometimes series about our very personal selves, ''Body Human: The Bionic Breakthrough'' (CBS at 8), beautifully produced by Tomorrow Entertainment-Medcom and Thomas W. Moore. Tuesday night, in addition to inside stuff on the ''bionic body,'' there is new, improved film of an 11-week-old fetus in its mother's womb. Also: a teen-ager with a malignant tumor above her knee is saved from leg amputation by a bionic bone implant; a police officer whose hand was amputated 10 years ago, gets a bionic transplant that moves by mind control. And other mind-boggling breakthroughs. ''The Body Human'' is, as always, scrupulously professional. ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 1981 10:16:21-PDT From: Cory.c99-1aa at Berkeley Subject: Unknown Title As I recall the book about naked women popping up in Manhatten and special children being able to shift ninety degrees in a fourth dimension was called "The Universe Between." It was amazing prophetic when it foretold great material shortages, especially oil and steel. It was written quite a while ago and I am afraid I have forgotten the author's name. Chris Guthrie ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 11 May 1981 10:11-PDT From: CSD.KDO at SU-SCORE Subject: Here's the title? There is a book about a hole in space which connects two universes called "The Universe Between" or something very similar. The hole is space is created by freezing a cube of special alloy to absolute zero (or below, I forget), moving between the universes drives several people crazy before the experimenters find a woman from a school for the particularly adaptable who then raises a son who is able to live equally in both worlds. No more plot for fear of spoilering. I don't remember about the women reappearing in Manhatten in the nude, but it was definitely possible to get from place to place 'instantly' using the other universe. I also loved it a long time ago and found it poor on rereading...it out that the disconnected parts I remembered were all there was. Ken ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 1981 10:24:35-EDT From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: title inquiry The "cubical hole in space, etc." is Nourse's THE UNIVERSE BETWEEN (how could I forget it? One of the first pieces of SF I wrote was a sequel to this!). The hole led not to a parallel universe (at least, not initially) but to a higher-dimensional universe in which geometry was sufficiently weird that a short distance could correspond to a long distance in the [lower] universe. Unfortunately, the weirdness of the geometry means that most people go insane when confronted with the new universe; the person who ultimately learns to cope with it is very fannish in many respects. I won't spoil the story by describing the outrageous ending, and I'd encourage anyone who hasn't read it to do so even if heesh has to invade the juvenile section of the library. ------------------------------ Date: 06 May 1981 0928-PDT From: Tom Wadlow Subject: The Forgotten Door and Ambitious Computers As I recall, the kid in TFD was really from another world, NOT the future. I quite vividly recall scenes in the book regarding the kid watching meteor showers with his folks and the descriptions very strongly lead to the conclusion that they weren't even in our neighborhood. (Yes, I got mine through SBS, too. It's amazing what sort of crap the mind can retain from childhood). As for ambitious computers, there is a reasonably good short story called "High Yield Bondage" by Hayward Pierce. HYB is about an alien scoutship that crashes on Earth and must accelerate the economic and technical development of the planet in order to manufacture spare parts to get home. The SpaceMaster Scout onboard computer masterminds the whole scheme, duplicating the pilot as necessary in order to get a decent workforce. An approximate quote to give you the flavor goes something like: "Can you imagine the industries that Leonardo Da Vinci would have to create in order to have the pleasure of watching 'Gone with the Wind' on his portable television?". ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 1981 14:02-EDT From: Daniel G. Shapiro Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #118 There was also breathable "water" in the lake outside the tower of Hali in the Darkover series. There was a chapter involving it in Stormqueen. I thought, "nah, couldn't be". So what is the chemical? And can I buy some? Dan ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 1981 18:02:00-EDT From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: breathable liquids The May issue of SCIENCE 81 contains an article on a liquid fluorocarbon emulsion which has been used as a blood substitute in a couple of hundred cases in Japan and about 75 cases here (all of them religious types who claim Biblical objections to transfusions (e.g., Jehovah's Witnesses)). The lead pictures showed a mouse which was left in the pure liquid for thirty minutes or so with no ill effects (although from its appearance it might have been very cold when it got out; the fur was severely matted). Oxygen solubilization is definitely one of the important properties of this liquid; however, I would suspect that surface tension is also significant--i.e. fluorocarbon liquids have effectively none compared to water. [ Clyde Hoover (clyde@UTEXAS) and Phil (ihnss!karn@BERKELEY) also provided information about this compound, while Bob Forward (forward@USC-ECL) provided another reference to the SCIENCE 81 article, although he indicated that the story appeared in the JUNE issue (anyone know for sure?). Thanks are due everyone for such a rapid and informative response. -- Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 1981 1723-PDT Sender: LEAVITT at USC-ISI Subject: Nostalgia - Captain Video From: Mike Leavitt Now that's my generation's nostalgia. Captain Video and the Video Rangers. And I used to spend a lot of time wandering around my neighborhood with a facsimile CV space helmet. As I recall, he went through three distinct models of space helmets: the first, like the Apollo astronauts'; the second, I think, had a glass-like enclosure, rather than metal; the third was a simple loop of wire from shoulder to shoulder, over the head. I guess there was a force field holding in the air. Sigh. Mike ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 1981 14:00:12-PDT From: mhtsa!duke!unc!tyg at Berkeley Subject: Saturday morning TV Anyone remember Astroboy? I think it was about '65 or thereabbouts. As I recall, he was a heroic robot, and it was my favorite cartoon at the time (well, actually equal to Felix the Cat, but what do you expect from a 4 yr. old?). Anyone have a more detailed memory? tom galloway ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 1981 09:05:02-PDT From: ihnss!hobs at Berkeley From: ucbvax!ihnss!hobs@BERKELEY (John Hobson) Subject: Peter Graves and 500 Balloons; Conistoga Wagons The two juveniles that Lauren referred to (SFL V3 #116) are "Peter Graves" and "The 500 Balloons", both by William Pene Du Bois. "500 Balloons" won either the Newberry or Caldecott Medal (I forget which) as best children's book of the year sometime in the mid-'50s. "Peter Graves" is summarized fairly well. The name of the "mad scientist" who invents the anti-gravity metal is Houghton, and the plot revolves around the attempts of Peter and Houghton to get the money to rebuild Houghton's house after Peter accidently destroys it by dropping the ball that bounces higher than the height from which it was dropped. The plot of "500 Balloons" is that Professor William Waterman Sherman of San Francisco sets off on an around-the-world flight in a balloon in 1883. Drifting westward over the Pacific (maybe the wind directions were different in the late 19th century), he is wrecked on the Island of Krakatoa, where a group of people (also from San Francisco) have set up an interesting society "based on balloons, steam power, and fantastic mechanical devices." This is paid for by a fabulous diamond mine on the island. Several days after Prof. Sherman gets there, the volcano blows, destroying the island. The inhabitants escape using a remarkable balloon escape platform (lovely illustration in the book), and the voyage is continued westwards until he crashes in the Atlantic, and is rescued. I found both books fun when I was about 8 (and remember them both fairly well, considering the amount of time since I last read either one.) Pene Du Bois also wrote a number of other nice juveniles: "Lion", "The Three Policemen", "Giant", "Squirrel Hotel", et al., all cheerfully illustrated. BTW, one of the few things that I did like in Heinlein's "Time Enough To Screw Around" was that that his pioneers did use Conestoga wagons. In the terms of the story, it is reasonable to take a simple, tested, easily repairable means of transportation into a wilderness. As one friend of mine who lived in the Yukon for several years once told me: "The snowmobile will probably never completely replace the sled dog, because if your sled dog dies in an emergency, you can eat it, but snowmobiles are most indigestible." And just why does Heinlein think that (as Harlan Ellison put it so well) "Love ain't nothin' but sex misspelled"? May the stampeeding elephants spare your house, John Hobson ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Summary-line: 13-MAY "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #120 *** EOOH *** Date: 13 MAY 1981 0722-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #120 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Wednesday, 13 May 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 120 Today's Topics: SF Books - Planet of Tears & James Michener on Space, SF Topics - Physics Today (breathable water) & Children's TV (Tom Corbett,Space Cadet and 60's Cartoons and Astro-boy) & Children's stories (Here's the Plot What's the Title and 500 (now 21) Balloons) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 May 1981 12:22:21-PDT From: ihnss!hobs at Berkeley From: ucbvax!ihnss!hobs@Berkeley (John Hobson) Subject: Planet of Tears My wife recently got me a book when she was last in the drugstore. This work is "The Planet Of Tears" by Trish Reinius (Bantam,1980). If any of you think about purchasing or reading this book: DON'T! Nano-review: If this book could talk, the sound it would make would be "Gobble, gobble, gobble." Micro-review: This book starts off with: Once upon a time, way off beyond imagination, stands a land called Everfor. >From this cute beginning (the story seems to be written for the 3-5 year old set, except that my 2 elder children [ages 3 and 5] were bored by it), the story goes rapidly downhill. As far as I am concerned, probably the weakest device for conveying information to the reader is to have one character talking to another, using the immortal words "as you know." In fact, the paragraph in which this phrase occurs (on page 4) is so remarkable that I will quote it at length: Then Melkedek spoke, and his voice echoed from heart to heart in the chamber, "Come, Mey and Treaia, and look at the Planet of Tears with us, for that is the world we have been watching. We have sent for you to tell you this: the time has come for you to go to one of the planets, to continue your journey on the path of existence. Like the other beings of Everfor, you have journeyed from Everfor many times before, and each time you have gone to one of the planets to continue to learn the lessons of life. Now the Planet of Tears is entering the Age of Aries and as you know,this will be a particularly evil time. It will be a time of trials, and perhaps your struggle will and that you are special, as all beings are special. As soon as I saw "the Age of Aries", I knew that the book had to be written by someone in California. Well, I was wrong, Ms. Reinius lives in Reno, Nevada (come now, nobody actually lives in Reno), but she was born in Bell, California. This book is just too cute for words, to call the characters 2-dimensional is to give 2-dimensional characters a bad name, the so called dilemmas that the characters (Mey, the heroine and Treaia, the hero) are too easily escaped from. (Mey gets into the clutches of the villain, Tartek, who in Dungeon & Dragons [tm] terms would be called a high level Illusionist. He wants some magic jewels that she has and tries to trick her into giving them to her. Nowhere does he try to remove them from her by force even though he is considerably bigger and stronger than she is, and has plenty of henchpersons to back him up. From the time that she realizes what he is up to, it takes her less than 4 pages to escape, despite the fact that he knows what she is up to. Treaia, who has a magic sword that Tartek also wants takes even less time to escape.) To sum up, this book is to be avoided at all costs. May your wombats be free from mange, John ------------------------------ Date: 05 May 1981 1718-PDT From: Jim McGrath HARRISBURG, Pa. (AP) - Author James Michener promised Tuesday that his next book on America's space program would be good news to his publisher and readers who don't like too many pages. ''It will be a shorter book and it will not start four million years ago,'' he said with a smile at an awards ceremony in the Pennsylvania state Capitol. Michener's novel ''Centennial'' opened by tracing life in Colorado back before the dinosaurs. Michener did not disclose the title of his half-finished new novel, but he did describe it as ''not science fiction but the role of space in American society in the last 20 years. ''I'm on the advisory council that supervises NASA (the National Aeronautics and Space Administration) so I've been working in space diligently the last three years,'' he said. Michener, a Pennsylvania native who now lives in Pipersville, Pa., was in Harrisburg to accept the second annual Distinguished Pennsylvania Artist Award. ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 1981 18:39 cdt From: VaughanW at HI-Multics (Bill Vaughan) Subject: TV nostalgia Sender: VaughanW.REFLECS at HI-Multics My favorite nostalgia trip is Tom Corbett, Space Cadet. It was on in 1950 and a little thereafter, at least in Philadelphia it was; Captain Video was also on, but I thought it was hokey and didn't watch it. (I can't remember why ... eight-year-olds' taste hs no real rationale anyway.) The show was about Tom Corbett and his two sidekicks, Astro (no last name) from Venus and Roger (?) something (my memory is trying to tell me Manning or such) from Mars. Tom, of course, was from Earth. They were cadets at the Space Academy and had some father-figure mentor with the rank of Captain whose name I don't recall, and then there was somebody called Commander Arkwright or Armstrong or something. (I am really confused now.) The show was set in 2350 AD, exactly (!) 400 years in the future. When it became 1951, (you guessed it) the show chnged its setting to 2351, but I think they gave up on that the next year. For a quarter or so, you could join the space cadet fan club and get an autographed picture of the space cadets, and a Space Academy diploma, and god knows what else. I did, naturally. I think I still have the diploma somewhere. The special effects consisted mostly of swinging the camera from side to side while the space cadets leaned all over their acceleration couches - but in retrospect, Star Trek wasn't much better. I liked the (very rare) zero-gee scenes, where the space cadets would float around the cabin, hanging from their wires, kicking. (Remember what I said about eight-year-old tastes.) BTW: I am 38 and do not remember Danny Dunn or Miss Pickerell, but I do remember the Winston (?) juvenile SF series, which was quite good. They were my first science fiction books - maybe around 1953 or 4. ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 1981 0852-EDT From: Jeff Shulman Subject: 60's Cartoons While I don't remember Astroboy I do remember Felix the Cat with Poindexter (sp?) and the Master Cylinder. Not to mention Gigantor, Speed Racer, and the Big World of Little Atom (actually my memory is fuzzy on this one, anyone remember it better than I?). Jeff ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 1981 16:24 edt From: Greenwald.INP at MIT-Multics Subject: Re: Astro-boy query Yes, I remember Astro-boy. "Astro-boy bombs away,on your blah-blah today,...." However that song went. There were three schools of thought in my kindergarten, those favoring Superman, those favoring Batman, and those favoring Astro-boy. I am not sure why these three were considered competing, but I do remember that the Astro-boy proponents (the good guys) thought he was the best character because he was the most "likely to be realistic". Or something like that... Astro-boy was a cartoon character around 1963-1965. He was a robot who was created by Dr. Elephant at the "Institute of Science". He was powered by a battery and frequently the plot cliff-hanger would hang on whether and how he could get "recharged". One thing that I vaguely remember, and I'd really like someone to tell me if this is a figment of my imagination or it really happened, was one episode where **budget cuts** threatened the "Institute" and Astro-boy was one of the projects scheduled to be dropped. He was actually "shut off", but was resuscitated when an emergency arose during which he proved his worth by saving the world, so the administrators decided, "well, X Dollars to save the world is marginally worth it, We'll let him hang around for a while". Anyone else confirm/deny that one? - Mike ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 1981 10:55:55-EDT From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Astroboy et al; breathable liquids I remember this all too well, as there is a fanne of Astroboy (and worse, of Prince Planet) at the MITSFS. My recollection is that the originals were in Japanese (though I may be remembering just her remarks about PP) with the usual bad translations; I also seem to recall that Astroboy also appeared on late-afternoon weekday TV. Doesn't anybody else remember the animated weekday morning serial "Space Patrol"? It was on some hour-long cartoon collection and alternated with other serials, including at least one fantasy ("The Firebird"); animation is expensive enough that I'm sure this wasn't local to DC. I'm sure Bob Forward is correct about the official date of the cited article (on breathable liquids); it's the issue of SCIENCE 81 that appeared in my mail box about a week ago, so given the peculiar dating of some magazines it could well be cover-dated June even though I've since received mags cover-dated May. Other thoughts on breathable liquids: first, on Darkover all bets are off, since the monitors in tower circles (at least) know enough about physiology and other fine manipulation that they could take extra oxygen into the liquid. Also, at least one of Carter(?)'s pieces of tripe mentions a crew of pirates living under a sea of some red liquid (on Venus?? memory completely fails me). ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 1981 17:24:03-PDT From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley Subject: Breathing under water Poul Anderson's "Three Hearts and Three Lions" has an underwater breathing scene. I quote: "Holger noticed his breath. It felt no different from rolled is tongue around in his mount and squirted saliva between his teeth. Somehow, he thought -- striving for a toehold on sanity -- the forces called magical must be extracting oxygen from the water for him and forcing it into a thin protective layer, perhaps monomolecular, on his face. The rest of him was in direct contact with the lake. His clothes flopped soggy. Yet he was warm enough...." The book has many other attempts to explain or deal with magic in light of 20th century science and engineering. For example, the gold belonging to a troll turned to stone by the sun is really accursed, because when carbon turns to silicon you get a radioactive isotope.... By the way, has our moderator been using a time machine instead of a computer? Recent digests have been dated sometime in March. [ A true slip of the pen on my part. The archives have been corrected to reflect the true (May) month in which these things originate. -- Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 1981 1803-PDT From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE Subject: water balloons I read an article about animals breathing underwater several years ago. At the time, the problem was in getting them to survive the transition back to air. The liquid in the lungs killed them. Until that little problem was solved, scientists didn't want to try it on people. The balloon book won the Newberry Award (the Caldecott medal is for best illustrated book--the story counts but picture books like Make Way for Ducklings or the Madeleine books are the typical winners). I think the number of balloons was less than forty. The Thirty-One Balloons? (36?). good reading, --cat ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 1981 1349-EDT (Monday) From: Dave Ackley Subject: Recherche du S.F. Perdu Sender: David.Ackley at CMU-10A Yes, yes, I confess! Me too! I remember Danny Dunn and Miss Pickerell. I read the Tom Swift series (including some of the T.S. Sr. series -- titles like T.S. and {the Big Cannon/his Wizard Camera/the Electric Boat} and so on) too. I even read my sister's Nancy Drew books when I couldn't find anything else, but I always looked down on "mainstream" stuff like the Hardy Boys. Reading SFL lately has really been bringing it all back -- I have to get through the daily wallow in nostalgia before I can get down to work -- and it's been harder and harder not to throw in a memory dump of my own. Lauren's message about the x000 Balloons was the last straw. I remember the book distinctly, especially a picture near the end showing the giant raft lifted by thousands of balloons that they used to escape the island. One big point that I had forgotten came out in conversation around here: the island was Krakatoa! (Thus the need to escape, thus the fact that the modern world never heard of these engaging folk, and so on.) What about that book (those books?) along the Mary Poppins line -- some old woman comes to take care of some kids, and strange things transpire? Like the faucets in the house running soda; like meeting the kids' mirror images; like the old woman's pet: a dodo? Sound familiar out there? That isn't Pickerell again, is it? Was it Pepperell, perhaps? How about Homer Price? Not exactly SF, perhaps, but certainly in the same big bag of lost pointers in my head that all these reminisces have been digging into. Ah well. I hope I've sent at least a few of us off on new nostalgia rushes. These are the petite madeleines of our generation -- we should treasure them! -Dave ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 1981 0927-PDT From: Isaacs at SRI-KL Subject: "balloons" story The "5000 balloons" or "500 balloons" is actually only "Twenty-One Balloons", a story by William __ Du Bois. I also enjoyed it very much as a kid, and found it is in current print in paper, and got it for my children. - SPOILER - SPOILER - SPOILER - SPOILER The island of the High-tech civilization is Krakatoa, and the balloonist lands there just before the big explosion. They escape in the 21 balloons. --- Stan ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Summary-line: 14-MAY "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #121 *** EOOH *** Date: 14 MAY 1981 0837-EDT From: JPM at MIT-ML Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #121 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Thursday, 14 May 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 121 Today's Topics: Administrivia - A Fond Farewell & Digest Overload, SF Events - SF Event Calendar, SF Books - Danse Macabre & The Universe Between, SF Movies - Capsule Reviews, SF Topics - Childern's stories (Miss Pickerel and Here's the Plot What's the Title) & Evolution of Unicorns, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 May 1980 18:42 PST From: The Moderator Subject: Administrivia - A Fond Farewell & Digest Overload I'd like to take the opportunity to wish Richard Brodie (Brodie@PARC-MAXC) a fond farewell. For the past couple of volumes of SF-LOVERS, Richard has been compiling the Science Fiction Convention Calendar (the most recent installment of which appears in this digest). He has also been the liason between the ARPA-NET and the XEROX computer network. But Richard's ties to the digest extend much further back into time. For he was the person responsible for the first version of this mailing list almost two years ago. Although many people have contributed vast amounts of time and effort to make this mailing list a success, Richard is the one who is ultimately responsible for its existence as such [as we will all point out to Proxmire, et. al.]. The digest is now SO successful that your poor present moderator is having difficulty keeping up. Right now there is enough material already submitted to the digest for 4 more issues. That means it takes 4 days on the average for a message from you to appear in the digest. This situation is likely to persist for the next couple of weeks, so please bear with me. Jim ------------------------------ Date: 12-May-81 11:15:45 PDT (Tuesday) From: Hamilton.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: Stephen King's "Danse Macabre" I've read halfway thur the book. Budrys' review [SFL V3 #116] is right on the mark. Note: the book is full of complete spoilers for every piece of notable horror (including much SF) ever written/ filmed. The claimed scope of the book is books, films, and TV of the past 30 years, but King doesn't hesitate to go back to three paradigms which he believes define most of modern horror: "Frankenstein", "Dracula", and "Dr. Jeckyll and Mr. Hyde". His fourth paradigm is the ghost story, which King explicates through reference to several contemporary works. King is at his best discussing the literary genres. Unfortunately, he doesn't seem to have developed any sort of cinema esthetic, so that his "discussion" of film is a tedious rendering of "gee whiz" plot spoilers, with a few references to the sort of sociological truisms that any film critic takes for granted (e.g. Don Siegel's "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" as a depiction of McCarthyism). One gets the impression that King was determined to prove that he had seen or read about any film that anyone might ever ask him about. This approach fails miserably, given the broad scope of his editor's mandate. It's not clear that King really knows anything about philosophy, religion, or psychology. If he did, he might have actually been able to expand the scope of the book while cutting down drastically on plot descriptions. For example, who can fail to be haunted by Edvard Munch's "The Scream"? But King ignores the art world, and for that matter, gives cinematography and set design rather short shrift. If you must read it, wait for it in paperback. --Bruce ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 1981 11:22:44-EDT From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: The Universe Between The first person to survive the other universe was not from a school for the talented; rather, she'd been through more than one reform school. ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 1981 17:43:41-PDT From: ihnss!karn at Berkeley The comment about 90-degree shifts into another dimension reminds me of a telephone intercept message (error recording) that somebody once suggested should be used at MIT: "We're sorry, you have reached an imaginary number at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try your call again". Phil ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 1981 0322-PDT From: Jim McGrath Subject: Capsule Movie Reviews By Roger Ebert (c) 1981 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service) ''The Devil and Max Devlin''-The latest Disney picture stars Elliott Gould as a man bargaining with the devil (Bill Cosby) to have his sentence in hell commuted. This pale, insipid movie could have been programmed on a computer. Rated PG. 2 stars. ''Excalibur''-John Boorman directed the latest version of the Camelot legend. It's wonderful to look at, but the characters are maddeningly arbitrary and unexplained. Nicol Williamson (witty and fun as Merlin), Nigel Terry, Helen Mirren, Nicholas Clay and Cherie Lunghi star. Rated R. 2 1/2 stars. ''The Hand''-Science-fiction thriller stars Michael Caine as a cartoonist whose hand transplant goes awry. With Andrea Marcovicci. Rated R. ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 1981 17:22:45-PDT From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley Subject: Miss Pickerel Goes to Mars I have vague recollections of that story. Wasn't there some scene where her magnetized hammer was bolixing up some instruments? I believe the Captain fastened the hammer in one place so that he could make the instrument read some particular value. While we're at it, let me bring up another story I read in my misspent youth, albeit somewhat later. It was about an interstellar war (I know -- that's a really helpful clue) against some lizard-like beings who were serving a master race somewhere. The hero (Jeff something?) of course becomes appointed new master when he wins, much as the Children of the Lens take over from the Arisians (gee, does that line merit a spoiler warning?). There was something about a totally barren radioactive planet, diamond stars as an insignia of high rank, and the hero showing up once on a horse -- unusual because horses were (almost?) extinct. Anyone out there know the title/author? My best guess is that I read it around 1964. ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 1981 0102-EDT (Friday) From: Lee.Moore at CMU-10A Subject: One horned goat's owner Does anybody know if its owners -- Morning Glory & Otter G'Zelle -- are related to Tim & Morning G'Zelle? These people are semi-famous for primitive-minimal constumes at WorldCons and other conventions. M.G. may be the person who appeared as a bottle of mimeo correction fluid; a costume the caused some comment many years ago for nudity. ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 1981 1927-PDT Sender: LEAVITT at USC-ISI Subject: lancelot the unigoat From: Mike Leavitt Not just AP, folks. I saw them all on the Evening News. People are taking this seriously. "Bray if you're horny!' ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 1981 13:40 PDT From: Brodie at PARC-MAXC Subject: SF Events - A Fond Farewell & SF Event Calendar I came to California in June '79, expecting to take a little time off from Harvard, and ended up staying at Xerox until now. But the time has come for me to take a little time off from Xerox to settle some unfinished business with a sheepskin. Over a year and a half have gone by since the first SF-Lovers message went out (It was a list of the Hugo Awards from the 1979 Worldcon in Brighton, England). They've been a good one and a half years; they've shown me clearly that electronic communication will change the shape of our world, and that we'll see its effects in our lifetimes. The list has grown enormously -- far beyond my expectations -- and has reached the point where many hundreds of people read the daily Digest. The 2 million words that have passed before the eyes of SF lovers through this medium so far -- not to mention the material in the other large lists -- the hours of work put in by Roger Duffey, and now by Jim and Don, constitute something all of us will have lasting memories of, and something which will continue to grow and be part of our lives. You can see, then, why it requires a great effort on my part to rip myself away from my child. In fact, it requires so great an effort that I'm not going to delete myself from the list until I give up looking for a way to read my mail from Seattle, where I'm spending the summer. But I am going away for a while, and I'd like to take this opportunity to thank all of you and to say au revoir. At any rate, here's the last convention calendar I'll be doing. I presume the job will pass on to someone yet to be named. See some of you around Cambridge in the fall . . . Richard ------------------------------ Calendar of Science Fiction Events As of May 7, 1980 ------------------------------ May 8-10, 1981 (Tennessee) KUBLA'S NINTH KHANPHONY. Ken Moore, 647 Devon Drive, Nashville, TN 37204 May 9-10 (Georgia) EMORY-TREK II. Atlanta Star Trek Society, c/o Kenneth Cribbs, 2156 Golden Dawn Drive SW, Atlanta, GA 30311 May 22-25, 1981 (Southern California) PHANTASMICON. Sheraton Plaza La Reina, Los Angeles (near airport). GoH: Sam J. Jones (Flash Gordon). Art show, masquerade, 24-hr. film program, ... Galacticon TICKETRON memberships accepted. $15 till 5/21; $20 door. 5826 Gregory Ave. #1, Los Angeles, CA 90038. (213) 461-2896. May 23-34, 1981 (District of Columbia) DISCLAVE. Sheraton National Hotel, Arlington, VA ($38 room). GoH: Isaac Asimov. Cost: $7 till 5/1, $10 after. Art show info: Bob Oliver, 9408 Michael Drive, Clinton MD 20735. June 5-7, 1981 (Arizona) PHRINGECON 2. PO Box 128, Tempe, AZ 85281. June 12-14, 1981 (Wisconsin) X-CON 5. M. P. Inda, 1743 N. Cambridge, Apt. 301, Milwaukee, WI 53202. June 13-14, 1981 (Kansas) COSMOCON II. c/o Charley S. McCue, 34 halsey, Hutchinson, KS 67501. June 19-21, 1981 (Massachusetts) SUMMERCON '81. Wargames. MIT Student Center, Cambridge MA. Dungeons & Dragons, Traveller, Runequest, other Fantasy Roleplaying games, Ancients, Naval, and Modern Tactical miniatures, Microgames, boardgames, Diplomacy, and much more! We will also have our own unique TACTICS PI! Steven A. Swernofsky, 128 Brattle Lane, Arlington, Mass. 02174. (617) 646-5604. SFL Liaison: SASW at MIT-MC. July 2-5, 1981 (Northern California) WESTERCON 34. GoH: C. J. Cherryh; Fan GoH: Grant Canfield. Red Lion Motor Inn, Sacramento, CA; (916) 929-8855; $32 single and double, $8 addl person. Party wing. Cost: $20 till 6/14/81, $25 door. P.O. Box 161719, Sacramento, CA 95816. July 3-5, 1981 (Northern California) PACIFIC ORIGINS. The Seventh Annual national Wargaming Convention. Dunfey Hotel, San Mateo, CA. Fantasy and Science Fiction games, TRAVELLER, DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS, TUNNELS AND TROLLS, RUNEQUEST!, a live FANTASY TRIP dungeon, National Ancients Championship, other miniatures events, over 50 Boardgame events, SCA fighting demo, movies, game design workshops. Pacific, PO Box 5548, San Jose, CA 95150. July 10-12, 1981 (Missouri) ARCHON V. GoH: Tanith Lee; Fan GoH: Joan Hanke Wood; Toastmaster: Charlie Grant; also Joan Hanke Wood, Wilson 'Bob' Tucker, Glen Cook, Ron Chilson, George R. R. Martin, Joe and Gay Haldeman, and Michael Berlyn. Chase-Park Plaza Hotel, St. Louis, MO ($44 single, $52 2/3/4). Soliciting program ideas and/or people who could help carry them out. Also looking for more artist names to add to the mailing list for soliciting contributions to the art show. This was successful at ARCHON IV (over 60% of artists sold works), and they are trying to expand. There will be more art show space and display panels this year. Also in the process of reviewing art show rules and would welcome suggestions. SFL liaison: WMartin at Office-3 (Amy Newell). July 17-19, 1981 (Southern California) FANTASY FAIRE. Amfac (Airport Marina) Hotel, Alhambra, CA. Masquerade, fantasy games, "Creating Your Own Universe", awards luncheon ($12). Cost: $10 till 6/10. 1855 W. Main St., Alhambra, CA 91801. July 17-19, 1981 (Massachusetts) LEXICON. Relaxicon. Sheraton Rolling Green, Andover, MA ($88 double for weekend, includes Sunday brunch for two). No GoH, srt show, huckster room, or hard work. Cost: $4.25. NESFA, P.O. Box G, Mit Branch P.O., Cambridge MA, 02139. July 23-26, 1981 (Southern California) SAN DIEGO COMIC CON. Confirmed Guests: Denny O'Neil, Dick Giordano, Doug Moench, Bill Sienkiewicz, L.B. Cole, Jim Shooter, Jack Kirby, Jerry Bails, Scott Shaw, Julius Schwartz, Carl Swan. El Cortez Hotel, 7th and Ash San Diego, CA ($22 single, $28 double, $7 per extra person, meal plan $14 for three meals). Cost: $16 till 6/30/81; $20 after; $15 ages 6-12; one-day memberships at door ($5 Thu/Sun, $6 Fri/Sat); under 5 yrs free. P.O. Box 17066 San Diego, CA 92117. August 7-10, 1981 (Northern California) MYTHCON XII. Mills College, Oakland, CA. Fantasy. GoHs: Elizabeth M. Pope, Joe R. Christopher. Cost: $10 till 3/1, $15 after. 90 El Camino Real, Berkeley, CA 94705. September 3-7, 1981 (Colorado) DENVENTION TWO. 1981 World Science Fiction Convention. Pro GoH: C.L. Moore, Clifford Simak; Fan GoH: Rusty Hevelin. Denver Hilton. Cost: $35 till spring 1981. P.O. Box 11545, Denver, CO. 80211. (303) 433-9774. November 5-7, 1981 (Southern California) LOSCON '81. Huntington Sheraton, Pasadena. PGoH: William Rotsler. FGoHs: Len & June Moffatt. Cost: $10 till 7/4. LASFS, 11513 Burbank Blvd., North Hollywood, CA 91601. July 2-5, 1982 (Arizona) WESTERCON 35. Adams Hotel, Phoenix ($29 single, $5 ea. addl.) GoH: Gordon R. Dickson. FGoH: Fran Skene. TM: David Gerrold. Cost: $15 till 7/10/81 ($6 supporting). Box 11644, Phoenix, AZ 85064; (602) 249-2616. SFL Liaison: Schauble.Multics at MIT-Multics (Paul Schauble). September 2-6, 1982 (Illinois) CHICON IV. 1982 World Science Fiction Convention. Pro GoH: A. Bertram Chandler; Fan GoH: Lee Hoffman; Artist GoH: Kelly Freas. Hyatt Regency, Chicago, IL. Cost: $30 till 6/30/81; $15 supporting; $7.50 conversion. PO Box A3120, Chicago, IL 60690. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Summary-line: 15-MAY "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #122 *** EOOH *** Date: 15 MAY 1981 0722-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #122 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Friday, 15 May 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 122 Today's Topics: SF Events - Convention Calendar addenda, SF Lovers - A Fond Farewell, Digest Correction - Spelling Error, SF Books - James Michener on Space & Cyber-SF & "High Yield Bondage", SF Movies - The Man Who Fell to Earth, SF Radio - HHGttG & Star Wars, SF Topics - Evolution of Unicorns & Childern's stories (Title query answered and Tom Swift) & Fantasy vs Science Fiction ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14 May 1981 1103-PDT From: Daul at OFFICE Subject: FARE THEE WELL I find my reaction very interesting (perhaps I am the ONLY one?) to BRODIE's departure. I have never met him, but I find that sharing this communication's media is special and that losing one person is a significant lose. I hope you continue to have access one way or another. --Bill ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 1981 10:13:39-EDT From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: important appendix to con calendar Lexicon registration is open only until June 18; there will be \\no// at-the-door registration. SFL contacts: DP@mit-ml, cjh@cca-unix. There will also be an expedition to the Blue Strawberry, a magnificent restaurant in Portsmouth NH; space for this is quite limited and requires a $25 deposit. ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 1981 00:26-EDT From: Dale R. Worley Subject: Michener's sense of time Did that AP story really talk about a book whose plot "started four million years ago", "before the dinosaurs"?!? My paleontology isn't that great, but 60 to 100 million years is the minimum. [ Actually, Michener himself said that his new book will not start 4 million years ago. This sentence was immediately followed by the writers discussion of Michener's book "Centennial," which begins with the formation of the earth itself. Whether the writer intended people to draw a direct connection between the two sentences is a matter of interpretation. -- Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 1981 at 0237-CDT From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 ^^^^^^^^^^^ CYBER-SF PROJECT: Report on Some Robot TYPEs ^^^^^^^^^^^ >>> RO:anm ANIMAL SHAPE or FUNCTIONING ANIMAL REPLICAS <<< These seem to be fairly uncommon; we've only come across about a dozen, and about half of them are merely incidental or whimsical. In-- Bunch, D.R., MODERAN Dick, P.K., DO ANDROIDS DREAM OF ELECTRIC SHEEP? Goulart, Ron, CALLING DR. PATCHWORK " " HAIL HIBBLER High, P.E., INVADER ON MY BACK " " THE MAD METROPOLIS " " NO TRUCE WITH TERRA Sheckley, R., JOURNEY BEYOND TOMORROW Stasheff, C., WARLOCK IN SPITE OF HIMSELF " " KING KOBOLD plus in the movie novelization or spinoffs Larson, et al., "Battlestar Galactica" series and \perhaps/ the animals created by the computer in Laumer, K., THE LONG TWILIGHT tho those may be merely biological. >>> RO:mgc MAGICAL 'ROBOTS' <<< These are even rarer (and usually also need another TYPE). In-- Baum, F., OZMA OF OZ " " TIC-TOC OF OZ Lem, S., THE CYBERIAD plus the (literally) incredible one in Trimble, L., THE CITY MACHINE (which isn't \intended/ as fantasy) and perhaps the Tin Woodman in the Oz books... I've never read them, but would think he might be. ********** Does anyone have anything to suggest for these ********** ********** two categories that may have been overlooked? *********** ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 1981 (Thursday) 2359-EDT From: SHRAGE at WHARTON-10 (Jeffrey Shrager) Subject: High Yield Bondage Re: High yield Bondage David Bowie starred in a film a few years back called "The Man Who Fell to Earth". I got the feeling at the time that I had read it somewhere but couldn't figure out where. NOW IT ALL COMES BACK! The Bowie film, which is not a rock film but a rather good piece of serious SF, is also about an alien whose ship crashes here and he does quite a bit of money management in order to build himself a new ship. They have changed the story a lot but the concepts are there. One line that I recall quite well from HYB is that the visitor had some sort of machine that would extract all the gold (or whatever) from a cubic mile of sea water. Of course, the price of gold et al fell to near zero as soon as this news spread and our hero went out and bought slews of gold. The problem was that the price of gold went straight back up as soon as it hit someone that it was not really feasible to pump a cubic mile of sea water! The Bowie film is weird but very good. Try to catch it. --- BTW ... as I recall, the short story was humorous... the film is definately otherwise! ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 1981 2328-PDT From: Stuart McLure Cracraft Subject: Hammil Here's a good one for you, Luke Skywalker (Mark Hammil) is replacing David Bowie on Broadway as The Elephant Man. ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 1981 2327-edt From: RHarvey at MIT-Multics Subject: SF Radio in Phoenix Starting on June 5th at 6:30, KMCR (91.5?) FM will be broadcasting the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy series. Following that, at 7pm, they will rebroadcast the Star Wars Series. Replacing Star Wars on Sundays at noon will be a radio series of Tolkien's THE HOBBIT and then THE LORD OF THE RINGS. This will begin on June 7. - Ron ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 1981 17:55:03 EDT (Thursday) From: Morris Keesan Subject: Corflu Morning Glory may have been in a worldcon masquerade as a bottle of corflu (mimeo correction fluid), but if she was, I suspect she wasn't the first. It was done at NYCon in 196(7?) by Cory Seidman (who is now Cory Panshin), who wore blue body paint and enough else to defeat local indecent exposure laws. ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 1981 18:26:49 EDT (Thursday) From: Morris Keesan Subject: Mrs. Coverlet and other children's literature I'm not sure if this is the same series that Dave Ackley asked about in SFL V3 #120, since all I have is the second book, "Mrs. Coverlet's Magicians". This one doesn't have dodos or soda faucets, but it has a little kid who does real magic using a kit he got by sending away a coupon clipped from the back of a comic book. Mrs. Coverlet is the housekeeper who takes care of the kids while their parent(s?) is(are) away. There must be a whole sub-genre of magical-nanny books. I got Mrs. Coverlet from the Weekly Reader Book Club, and how's that for nostalgia? While we're on the subject of children's books, I'd like to recommend two of my favorite authors of more recent children's fantasy: John Bellairs, who wrote "The Face in the Frost", "The Pedant and the Shuffly", "The House with the Clock in its Walls", and others (including two sequels to the house/clock one, whose names I can't remember; and Jane Langton, none of whose fantasy titles spring to mind, but who also wrote such mainstream children's classics as "The Boyhood of Grace Jones" and "Her Majesty, Grace Jones", and some adult mysteries which I've been trying to find copies of ever since hearing them on Reading Aloud on WGBH, "The Transcendental Murders" and one other (I'm not doing too well with titles today). ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 1981 09:54:03-PDT From: mhtsa!duke!unc!bch at Berkeley Subject: Mrs. Piggle-Wiggle The strange woman referred to (re: faucets running soda, etc.) is Mrs. Piggle-Wiggle. There were about three books in the series but I do not remember the specific titles nor the author. As I remember, Mrs. Piggle-Wiggle was noted for living in an upside-down house, serving marvelous gingerbread cookies on cold days and generally messing around with the lives of children who did not toe the line in one way or another. It seems she was of the general morality of Munro ("This is a watchbird watching you") Leaf. One episode (the books were composed of short stories, each dealing with a different aberrant behavior) had Mrs Piggle-Wiggle prescribing a deafness-inducing drug to a child who used "I didn't hear you" as an excuse for not doing household chores. The child was so glad to hear after the medicine wore off, that the behavior disappeared. Another had her administering an IQ-inhibiting potion to a child who perpetually called other children "stupid" or "dummies." The only thing I never could figure out about Mrs. Piggle-Wiggle was (a) why did children continually come to this obviously deranged woman's house despite the terrible things that happened to them, and (b) why nobody ever called the cops. If I sound bitter, it is because I consider this type of book the *worst* that the children's literature of the late '40s and early '50s -- promoting a kind of mindless expectation of conformity. I expect, however, that is the subject for some other newsletter... Byron Howes University of North Carolina ------------------------------ Date: 5 May 1981 (Tuesday) 0236-EDT From: SHRAGE at WHARTON-10 (Jeffrey Shrager) Subject: Children's SF books Thinking about it now, I think that I was influenced a great deal by two series that I used to collect (or that my father would collect for me). The one the I recall most clearly was the "Tom Swift and his X" where X included all sorts of bizarre SF gadgetry. I actually do not remember any of the plots or titles but I can clearly recall many of the cover paintings and I remember that the hero, Tom Swift, had rich relatives and so could go out and build any sort of gadgets he liked. Maybe someone with the collection could fill in the major holes that 8 or 10 years have generated.... The other series that I loved was called "The Young Detectives" [I think] and was published or written by Alfred Hitchcock. I can't imagine him having wasted his time writing these but his name appeared in each book and I think that he was the narrator. This one was not as much SF as detective novel but the head of this kiddy detective squad was supposed to have been exceptionally bright and there was all sorts of gadgetry involved in their adventures. Ah! One other children's SF comes to mind but I can't recall the name or even a clear plot... something about an alien animal that is discovered by some school kids and hidden in their house. It does things like bitting the bullies and in the end, flys of into space again. -- Jeff ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 1981 1646-PDT From: CHRIS at RAND-AI Subject: mythcon 1982 The Thirteenth Annual Mythopoeic Convention (the Mythopoeic Society studies the fantasy/factual literature of JRRTolkein, CS Lewis and Charles Williams, and related (that covers a lot of fantasy and SF) materials) will be held at Chapman College in Orange County, CA, on August 13-16, 1982. It will center on Celtic/Fantasy Lit, confirmed GoHs are Katherine Kurtz, Katheryn Lindskoog, Antaniel Noel, and they are inviting Tim Kirk (who did the first Tolkien Calendar in 1973 or so; the Brothers Hildebrandt can't touch his work), Marion Zimmer Bradley, Randel Helms, and others. Plans include preview slide shows of work on Disney Studios version of Lloyd Alexander's The Black Cauldron, a Society for Creative Anacronists feast, and the usual music, masquerades, drama festival and art show events. Membership is $10.00 to March 1, 1982, then $15.00 to July 31, 1982, then $20. Room rates at the college are $20/day/person (double occupancy) INCLUDING 3 meals a day. Contact MYTHCON XIII, Lisa Cowan, P.O.Box 5276, Orange, CA 92667. Thought someone out there might be interested. I just got back from a discussion of Richard Purtill's The Golden Gryffin Feather, and The Stolen Goddess. Both books are set on Crete during the time of Theseus and the Minotaur, and are not-so-great fantasy treatments of a few demigods descended from the Olympians and the royal families of Crete and Athens. During the discussion we more or less decided the books were not fantasy but really science fiction (things like powers of ESP, foresight and controlling the bull during the Dances explained in terms of genetics). Then we got into the deeper (and perhaps ultimately meaningless) problem of what differentiates fantasy from science fiction. Any good ideas? ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 1981 11:24:43-EDT From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: breathable liquids In my mention of Darkover, it was supposed to read "they could \teke/ [not 'take'] extra oxygen into the liquid. [ Sorry about that. -- Jim ] ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Summary-line: 17-MAY "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #123 *** EOOH *** Date: 17 MAY 1981 0815-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #123 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS PM Digest Saturday, 16 May 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 123 Today's Topics: SF Books - The Universe Between & Alan Nourse, Humor - Mushrooms, SF Topics - Childern's TV (Astroboy and MUSHI productions and 8th Man and Prince Planet and Rocket Robin Hood), Spoiler - The Universe Between ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 May 1981 1003-EDT (Tuesday) Sender: Joseph.Ginder at CMU-10A From: Joe Ginder Subject: The Universe Between; Alan Nourse I remember reading several books by Alan Nourse while in grade school and junior high. The one mentioned in the sf lovers' of a few days ago was called "The Universe Between" and consisted of three novella-length stories. The first was the one mentioned in which some scientists were attempting to cool some object to absolute zero, and when it got cold enough, it "broke" through into a parallel universe. The scientists sent several volunteers up to look into the "hole" it had created; but each one went insane. Then they recruited a young woman for her psychological "flexibility". To make a long story short (and attempt to avoid a spoiler which I may already have earned), she learns how to get to the other universe without any outside aids and imparts this knowledge to her son. The rest of the story concerns the verrry cold cube and her experiences in the other universe. The following two stories are about her son and his experiences in the other universe (and this one). There are many standard sf themes touched upon in these stories -- entropy, subjectivity of senses, alienness, etc. All in all, I liked it a lot then -- like lots of juvenile sf, it still brings back fond memories. I remember several other Alan Nourse sf novels and collections of stories fondly. In particular, I seem to recall a novel "Psi High" about extrasensory perception, and another collection whose name I don't seem to recall with stories about "rejuvenation" (with a politicians named "Dan Forbes" and "Moses Tyndall"?) and other things. The stories in the latter volume were tied together by a short intro. and an epilogue in which aliens were observing mankind. Ah, I remember, one of the stories concerned "analogues" which allowed men to explore the surface of Jupiter -- in mind if not in body. I remember several other stories (by Del Rey?) which I recall much less vividly but remember enjoying. One was about a rocket race around the sun, I believe -- anyone remember this one? Another concerned aliens attacking the Earth and had something to do with Mars. (I guess that would describe a large number of juvenile sf plots....) Joe [ For more about the story The Universe Between, see the Spoiler section of this digest. -- Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 1981 15:16 PDT From: REDDERSON.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #118 I don't know anything about the Mushroom Planet books, but i DO notice the trend of non-remembering associated with these books, their titles and/or authors. are you sure there maybe wasn't a little mushroom DUST in those pages????? ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 1981 1424-EDT From: LS.SEB at MIT-EECS Subject: Astroboy I, too, remember Astroboy from the late '60s-early'70s. He had feet that retracted to become rockets, and a whole lot of neat mechanical gimmicks that helped to keep the free world safe. Also, much time was spent trying to convince the viewer that robots could be human, too. Astroboy's "father" was a stereotypical absent-minded professor type. That's all I remember for sure...I think there was a girl and a pet, too. Anyone remember? Since old SF cartoons have come up, does anyone remember Prince Planet and Rocket Robin Hood (from the same era)? Have a good summer, y'all, Steve Barber ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 1981 18:08:57 EDT (Thursday) From: Morris Keesan Subject: Astroboy The original was definitely in Japanese, from the same Japanese studio that brought you such wonderful shows as Speed Racer and Kimba, the White Lion. Their characters were always recognizable by their oversized eyes. ------------------------------ Date: 16 May 1981 1437-EDT From: Steven J. Zeve Subject: Astro boy Astroboy was originally a Japanese comic strip (according to one of world encyclopedia of comics). Along with astroboy I remember such cartoons as: Gigantor, Speed Racer, and Tobor the Eighth Man. I also remember the marionette shows: Fireball XL-5, Thunderbirds, Captain Scarlet (only saw it once or twice), Supercar (again very vague), and Submarina (I think that was the title, one of the central character was a girl from an underwater civilization). Several of the marionette shows came from the Space1999 people (which may be why the characters in Space 1999 were so wooden). steve z. ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 1981 (Friday) 0012-EDT From: SHRAGE at WHARTON-10 (Jeffrey Shrager) Subject: Astroboy When I was quite young, I watched astroboy religiously. I used to pretend that I was a robot. I recall the image of Astroboy and his astro-family quite clearly. Others from that time frame are: Marine boy (and his oxy-gum), and ... There's a creature eating Philly [sic] It came from outter space, Created by the Martians to destroy the HUMAN NETS DIGEST. The FBI is helpless, [as usual] It's twenty stories tall... What can we do, who can we call??? Call TOBOR the 8th man... Call TOBOR the 8th man... Faster than a rocket, stronger than a jet. He's a mighty robot, he's the one to get..." [It is beyond me exactly how the FBI got into the act. Imagine trying to get a twenty story Tarauntasaourous to try to take a bribe!] I can imagine finding men 1 thru 7 in a closet in the CMU robotics cave. -- -- -- How about Ultra-man. He also had a solar power battery that needed recharging like Astroboy's. Some of the Ultra-man episodes were actually quite bizarre. This was the time frame of Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea and Lost in Space wasn't it? Maybe they came a bit later. Oh, for the days of semi-reasonable television... ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 1981 0501-PDT (Wednesday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: Astra Boy and Mushi Astro Boy has always been one of my all time animated favorites. The concept involved a robot boy who was built by a scientist when his real son was killed in an auto accident (the automatic traffic control system broke down and crashed the car). Another scientist named Dr. Elephant (who had a very distinctive nose, as you might imagine) sorta steered Astro Boy toward using his special abilities for the good of society. There were a number of very interesting episodes, including one involving a whole city which was moved to another planet by aliens without the knowledge of the inhabitants (much like the "Outer Limits" episode "Feasibility Study".) Astro Boy also had a great theme song, which used to show up occasionally on radio programs on the level of Dr. Demento. Astro Boy was a MUSHI production, from Japan of course. MUSHI programs have several distinguishing characteristics. Many of the main characters look alike in all the shows. Large eyes, round faces, etc. The same voices were used extensively. I learned later that the same basic face/eye layout is also used extensively in Japanese comic books (which are an art form in themselves -- some are sorta half for children and half R -> X rated stuff for adults.) One other MUSHI production which comes immediately to mind is "Kimba" (about a white lion in Africa). There are a number of other animated programs which I believe were either done by MUSHI or were associated with them. These include "Prince Planet" (an alien prince is sent to Earth to help achieve law and order), "Speed Racer" (about a young race car driver), "Marine Boy" (kind of an underwater version of Prince Planet), and maybe "The Amazing Three" (about three aliens sent to Earth to determine if it should be allowed to exist or whether it should be "removed".) One amusing sidenote about "Speed Racer" The voice of one of the primary characters ("Racer X") apparently showed up in a completely unrelated film, the soft X porn classic "The Story of O". It seems the same person who provided the English voice for Racer X did the English dialogue looping for a character in the French porn flick. Actually, this is only a rumor, but from a rather good source. Such ironies. Ah well, I'll leave you with a bit of empty history, the theme from "The Amazing Three": Spacemen with a mission, You must make a very big decision. With your solar bomb you could destroy us, Or save the world, or save the world. Spacemen, must be wise men. So we will take pains to disguise them. Bunny - Bonnie, Pony - Ronnie, last with, And then the last, becomes a duck. Spacemen, with a mission, You must make a very big decision. Earthboy Kenny Carter knows your secret, As away you go, to meet the foe, Amazing Three, Amazing Three, Amazing Three. --- I think I'm going insane. [ No comment. -- Jim ] --Lauren-- ------------------------------ JPM@MIT-AI 5/16/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following messages are the last in the digest. They reveal more details about the plot development in the story The Universe Between. Those unfamilar with this story may not wish to read any further. ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 1981 17:18:17-PDT From: decvax!duke!phs!dennis at Berkeley This concerns the book (yes, by Nourse) about the entry point into the alternate universe. This other universe was sort of an "over-space" and from it you could travel into parallels to our own universe (with slightly differing physical laws, like "The Gods Themselves") by "turning the corner" just right. The opening story (it stands alone and was probably published that way, but I've never seen it other than with the rest of the tale) concerned an ultra-cold experiment in which they got very close to 0 degrees K when the temperature took a large drop. What was left was the gateway. A couple of scientists got driven the requisite crazy by trying to examine (penetrate?) this gateway; they finally got a girl who was emotionally impaired in some fashion (fewer ties to our universe, I guess) and she managed to go in and back out, and learned how to turn the corner wherever she was. The second part concerns this girl's son (this takes place several (~15-20) years later) whom she has taught to turn this corner. He eventually contacts beings who live in this other universe and sets up a flourishing transporation industry (distances are much shorter there, of course). Shipments start going haywire (a pile of pipe arrives melted on Mars, for instance) because they turn a slightly wrong corner and wind up in a place where physics is different. ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 1981 15:19 edt From: JSLove at MIT-Multics (J. Spencer Love) Subject: The Universe Between Sender: JSLove.PDO at MIT-Multics The book about the hole in space is "The Universe Between", which I think is by Alan Norse (Nourse?). Its first chapter originally appeared as a short story (I don't remember where), in which a ruthless researcher is using up experimental subjects by demanding that they look at the phenomenon he has created. The phenomenon is a roughly cubical, glowing hole in space caused by cooling a metal block or bar BELOW absolute zero. They got it very cold and then without warning it jumped to the other side of the "temperature barrier" without actually passing through absolute zero. The physics here is questionable but never pinned down enough for a physicist to object to it. Finally, they bring in subjects from some parallel research project in adaptability, or mental flexibility, and they find a woman who doesn't go mad at the sight of it. There are some quite entertaining descriptions of the geometry on the other side: "Three parallel lines met at right angles to form a perfect cube with seven triangular sides." She learns from examination of the phenomenon to be able to voluntarily go between this universe and that one without having the object around, and the relationship between this universe and that one are such that considerable displacement in one can be had for a short trip in the other. There is considerable handwaving about "angles" which is used to suggest motion in other than the usually expected three dimensions. The woman doesn't think too much of the ruthless experimenter, and splits. The short story ends where the experimenters find the empty cell she was locked into because she feigned insanity to deny him the knowledge. The story picks up again with the woman married to the ruthless scientist's protege, or perhaps the person in charge of adaptability research. They have had a child for the purpose of teaching an infant to deal with both worlds simultaneously, since dealing with the other world is very hard even for the woman. The plot gets very intricate with matter transmitters, parallel universes, and the inhabitants of the other universe thrown in. Of particular interest is a beautiful girl from the other universe who appears naked out of thin air speaking a language with no relationship to any known language as an emissary from the universe between. She thinks this universe is as wierd as we think theirs is. It even has a happy ending that will twist you 180 degrees in your chair. An excellent book. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Summary-line: 17-MAY "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #124 *** EOOH *** Date: 17 MAY 1981 0925-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #124 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Sunday, 17 May 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 124 Today's Topics: SF Books - "High Yield Bondage" & The Man Who Fell to Earth, Humor - Mushrooms, SF Topics - Star Trek Nude Shot & Childern's TV (8th Man and Captain Video and The Video Rangers and Tom Corbett,Space Cadet) & Childern's Books (Mushroom Planet and The Three Investigators and The Spaceship Under the Apple Tree and Here's the Plot What's the Title) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 May 1981 10:44-EDT From: Dale R. Worley Subject: The Man Who Fell to Earth Wasn't there a novel with this name? I seem to remember that the hero came to earth from some planet, with the plan of building a financial empire so that he could send a rescue mission to his home planet, which was about to get destroyed in some way. The empire was based on various inventions which they knew we did not have from watching our television transmissions. ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 1981 10:16:08-EDT From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: "High Yield Bondage" THE MAN WHO FELL TO EARTH (film version starring David Bowie) is a reasonably faithful representation of the novel of the same title by Walter Tevis. Tevis is basically an outsider to SF; the only other SF of his that I know of is [the?] MOCKINGBIRD, a recent book which was praised in certain circles. In the book it is made clear early on that the ET came deliberately (i.e., is not trying to make enough money to get off) to warn the Earth of an impending catastrophe. ------------------------------ Date: 16 May 1981 10:55-EDT From: Dale R. Worley Subject: Hitchcock's juvenile detective stories Weren't these called "The Three Investigators"? As the title implies, there were three of them, and they were always running into incredible criminal enterprises. ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 1981 1157-PDT From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE Subject: magic animal robots, Alfred Hitchcock There is a flying talking couch and there are a bunch of other magically animated creatures in the Oz books. How about the Patchwork Girl of Oz? In the book by that title, she magically comes to life. I can get a more complete list from a relative if it is wanted. I think the detectives in Alfred Hitchcock's series were called the Investigators. Anyone remember The Case of the Stuttering Parrot? I remember soda pop coming out of the faucet, but don't remember the author. I'm pretty sure, though, that the author comes before "Eager" in the alphabet (by my memory of where the book was in the library). By the way, does anyone remember Half Magic, Knight's Castle, or Seven-Day Magic by Edward Eager? How about The Gammage Cup and The Whisper of Glocken by Carolyn Kendall? Homer Price and the Doughnut Machine! All among my favorites. I've read the Bellairs books Face in the Frost (very good) and The House with the Clock in its Walls (good), and also the other two books that follow it in the series. I can't remember the titles, but I do remember disliking them. Face in the Frost is very funny, though ... It starts out something like "Once upon a time in a place whose name doesn't really matter there was a wizard named Prospero, and not the one you're thinking of, either." good reading, --cat ------------------------------ From: ELLEN@MIT-MC Date: 05/15/81 22:21:50 Subject: Nostalgia jig... I am not on SF-Lovers, but read it occasionally. I have noticed a certain Nostalgia sort of thing about children's Sci-Fi of late, and thought (having a 13 year old in his first childhood) I might be able to help: The Alfred Hitchcock series is "The Three Investigators" A listing of titles (taken from book number 25, "The Mystery of the Dancing Devil", from my son's bookcase) goes: The Secret of Terror Castle The Mystery of The Stuttering Parrot The Mystery of the Whispering Mymmy The Mystery of the Green Ghost The Mystery of the Vanishing Treasure The Secret of Skeleton Island The Mystery of the Fiery Eye The Mystery of the Silver Spider The Mystery of the Screaming Clock The Mystery of the Moaning Cave The Mystery of the Talking Skull The Mystery of the Laughing Shadow The Secret of the Crooked Cat The Mystery of the Coughing Dragon The Mystery of the Nervous Lion The Mystery of the Singing Serpent The Mystery of the Shrinking House The Secret of Phanatom Lake The Mystery of Monster Mountain The Secret of the Haunted Mirror The Mystery of the Dead Man's Riddle The Mystery of the Invisible Dog The Mystery of the Death Trap Mine The Mystery of the Dancing Devil The editor may wish to put that list somewhere, as it is long, and I fear not even complete. These books are really sort of a modern (gadgetry) version of the older Hardy Boys. The stories are not actually by Hitchcock, as someone has suggested ("why would he want to...") but feature him as narrator and are written by at least two authors, Hitchcock's association with the series is not clear to me from looking at the example I have in front of me, except that he obviously gave permission for his name to be used. They are primarily detective stories, however. But, they sparked my son to go on to more reading, including (does anyone remember reading this:) Louis Slobodkin, "The Three-Seated Space Ship", "The Space Ship in the Park", "The Space Ship Under the Apple Tree", and "The Space Ship Returns to the Apple Tree" ?? This series features a kid from another planet who contacts a kid here (in the three seated version I think we bring along a grandmother) and they have assorted fun time/space adventures, along with needing to magically learn new languages, new customs, and so on - not to mention explaining where they were last Monday.) My son tired of those quickly and went on to Ben Bova's Exile Trilogy and Asimov. ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 1981 19:31:46-PDT From: eagle!mhtsa!duke!unc!bch at Berkeley Subject: Captain Video and the Video Rangers The first Captain Video helmet was of the standard diving bell variety used in "Destination Moon." The second was plastic with a hinged trans- parent face plate and was offered as a premium for sending in the appropriate number of "Powerhouse" candy bar wrappers (never could stand the taste of those things, but a true fan must sacrifice) and a nominal sum of money. I expect they would have been banned by the FTC these days as they were inadequately ventilated and definitely flammable. (I wonder if accidents due to those properties led to the final "force field" version of the helmet?) As I recall, however, the Video Rangers (save for the single character called "the Ranger") were rehashed Texas Ranger movies shown in 10 minute installments between 10 minute segments of Captain Video. As long as we're here, anybody remember "Tom Corbett, Space Cadet?" I remember the series, and that the characters wore ostentatiously studded uniforms, but anything beyond that escapes me. ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 1981 1556-EDT From: SWG at MIT-XX Subject: Tom Corbett, Space Cadet From /The Complete Directory to Prime Time Network TV Shows/ by Tim Brooks and Earle Marsh (Ballantine, 1979): Broadcast history: Oct-Dec 1950, CBS; Jan 1951 - Sep 1952 ABC; Jul-Sep 1951 NBC Characters: Tom Corbett, Capt. Strong, Astro the Venusian, Roger Manning, Dr. Joan Dale Technical Advisor: Willy Ley Writers: Frankie Thomas (who played Tom), Stu Brynes, Ray Morse /Tom Corbett/ was conceived by CBS in late 1950 to cash in on the enormous popularity of DuMont's /Captain Video/. The two programs were not directly competitive---in fact /Tom Corbett/ led into /Captain Video/ three nights a week---and they differed in substantial ways. /Tom Corbett/ had a much larger budget and thus more realistic special effects, such as blastoffs, weightlessness, etc., all done live through various techniques of video hocus-pocus. And the emphasis was less on futuristic hardware (though there was plenty) and more on the adventures of the young cast. Tom Corbett, curly-headed teenage cadet at the Space Academy, four centuries hence, was a figure with whom youngsters could identify. With him in training to become Solar Guards were wisecracking Cadet Roger Manning ("So what happens now, space heroes?," "Aw, go blow your jets!") and the quieter Astro, a Venusian (planetary boundaries were rather less important in the 24th century). Every week they blasted off in the spaceship /Polaris/ to new adventures somewhere in space, usually against natural forces rather than the space villains who populated /Captain Video/. Their exploits were instructive as well as exciting. Program advisor Willy Ley, a noted scientist and author, worked in legitimate concepts such as variable gravity forces, asteroid belts, and antimatter. . . . Late in 1952 the series moved to Saturday daytime, where it continued, off and on, until the summer of 1955. Based on the novel /Space Cadet/, by Robert A. Heinlein. ------------------------------ FIL@MIT-AI 05/08/81 22:30:51 Re: Mushroom Planet and Apple trees "The Spaceship Under the Apple Tree" was written by William Slobodkin, I think. He also wrote a series of non-sf children's books about a family named Moffat. I think there might have been a sequel to SsUtAT, but I'm not sure. As for the Mushroom Planet, I remember plenty. The name of the semi-mad (not really) scientist was Theo (for something longer) Bass. There were at least three books in that series: In the first one Mr. Bass tells the boys to take a mascot along. In their last minute rush to take off, all they can scrounge up is a chicken from the barnyard. Said chicken ends up saving the Mushroom Planet because of sulfur in her egg yolks, which the Mushroom People are short of. Also in the story was the fact that once on the MP you could only speak the native tongue and write the native script. And the fact that their take off window was very narrow because of a black hole of some kind orbiting between the Earth and the MP. In the second book, the boys meet Mr. Bass' cousin. They end up on a flight to the MP with the cuz and a Skeptical Scientist. After they get back, (leaving cuz behind on the MP) the SS tries to take the ship back because he can't read the notes he took while on the MP. He manages to get the ship off, but falls through the black hole and by some miracle is washed ashore the next day. Meanwhile, Mr. Bass, who has never been to the MP himself, is breathing air from a jar that the boys brought back, air from the MP. He sighs happily and it is implied that he somehow floats awy on the wind to the MP. The third book, which I never read (because I could never find it, dammit!), was called Mr. Bass' Planetoid. I'm not sure what it was about, but I think Mr. Bass need the boys help with some important matter. Now here's a plot without a title from me: Some kids (a boy and a girl) are building a play spaceship in the garage. The boy finds a strange piece of metal in a vacant lot. It is a big dish shaped thing, very light and malleable. The boy and girl shape it to the nose of their wooden ship. In the night (or sometime) some being comes and tries to take the ship by rubbing a piece of metal shaped like an old umbrella against the metal of the nose. To make a long story short, the being does get the ship moving (seems the metal on the nose is the other half of its flying saucer). The kids go with him because he is lost. They end up touring the solar system looking for they guy's home. He feeds them magic jelly been so they won't need air or water or warm temperatures. It turns out in the end that he's not from the solar system at all. Anyway it was a cute book. Any takers? philip ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 1981 1455-EDT From: SWG at MIT-XX Subject: Mushroom Planet books (SFL V3 #117) I'll never forget that wonderful substance tritetramethylbenzacarbonethylene -- a sure-fire remedy for antidisestablishmentarianism! ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 1981 2241-PDT From: First@SUMEX-AIM Subject: Star Trek Nude Shot/TOBOR the 8th Man memory The following offer appears in the April 1980 issue of Playboy (which if one is any kind of a Beatle fan is an absolute must--John Lennon comments on the meaning and circumstances around most of the Beatles songs--they are listed in alphabetical order with Lennon's comments about each one--it's a dream come true, made very shortly before his assassination): "Trekkies may remember an episode of \Star Trek/ called the "Gamesters of Triskelion" in which an Amazonian woman develops an interplanetary affection for Captain Kirk. Now Angelique Pettyjohn, a truly stellar attraction on the show, is selling two 19" by 24" posters depicting herself in--and out--of her Amazon costume. The clothed version is $7.50, the unclothed one is $17.50 or you can have both post-paid for only $22.50 sent to Angelique Pettyjohn, c/o Tri-Sun, INC., PO Box 42117, Las Vegas Nevada 80104. Angelique is full of enterprise." p. 240. Small reprints of the posters are printed with this little article. I guess I can't really fault her--Leonard Nimoy has been making a fortune off of his involvement. It is a bit incongruous seeing the picture--Star Trek was always kind of devoid of overt sexuality even though many of the costumes were as revealing as Roddenberry could get past the censors. I guess it was only a matter of time until someone decided to capitalize off of our fantasies... On the same Philadelphia UHF station which carried Astroboy, was a much better Japanese export: "TOBOR the Eighth Man", a precursor by several years of the bionic man concept (TOBOR is robot spelled backwards--clever, huh). Does anybody remember this one I can't quite remember the original concept. In my group of friends, it was considered much more fashionable to watch than Astroboy--I really hated that awful squeaking sound he made when he walked. --Michael [ TOBOR is briefly discussed in volume 3, issue 123. -- Jim ] ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Summary-line: 18-MAY "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #125 *** EOOH *** Date: 18 MAY 1981 0739-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #125 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Monday, 18 May 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 125 Today's Topics: SF Events - GENCON gaming convention, SF Books - Journeys of Frodo & The World and Thorinn & Cyber-SF, SF TV - Star Trek, Humor - Dr. Ann Atomic, SF Topics - Children's stories (The Lemonade Trick) & Children's TV (Speed Racer and Astro Boy and Japanese animation and Gigantor and Felix the Naughty Kitty and Homer Price and 8th Man) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14 May 1981 2049-EDT From: KJB at MIT-DMS (Kevin J. Burnett) Subject: GENCON gaming convention Does anybody have any idea of when GENCON is going to be, if at all this year? It was supposedly going to be in California. -Kevin ------------------------------ Date: 17 May 1981 0427-PDT From: Jim McGrath Subject: Tolkien Book Journeys of Frodo: An Atlas of J.R.R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings, by Barbara Strachey (Ballentine, $7.95). 51 two color maps of Frodo's journey through Middle Earth. Now available in your local (well, maybe big city) bookstores. Jim ------------------------------ Date: 17 May 1981 (Sunday) 1112-EDT From: SHRAGE at WHARTON-10 (Jeffrey Shrager) Subject: ST sex and Parallel universes: There must be something in the air... our local bboard just got over a long discussion of sex in ST. As I recall, I think the winners were: Wink of an Eye (in which Kirk is seen "after the (f)act" pulling on his boots) and The one with the indians on a planet with a broken meteor deflector in which Kirk has a child. That's the most implicit sex possible. There were some others. I'll try to dig up the backlog from BULL. ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 1981 0035-EDT From: CSH at MIT-DMS (Cynthia S. Hanley) Subject: Speed Racer Local Boston area fans of Speed Racer may find this of interest. Some months ago I turned to the Meet The Manager show on Channel 56 and overheard the manager saying loudly, "Speed Racer will never be show by this channel while I am here." It seems that Channel 56 holds the local rights and this creature, in his infinite wisdom, has decided it is far, far too violent a show for his station. Instead he wants to show such "tame classics" as Tom & Jerry, Flintstones, Woody Woodpecker, and the like. I make no comment... ---CSH ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 1981 1731-PDT From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE Subject: animal robots In addition to the animal shapes in the Oz books, there are robot birds in The Pastel City by M. John Harrison. Their creator says that some of them were so complex they had learned to talk. "That's about as good a definition of life as any..." he says. There also are some humanoid robot warriors in the book, but these are less unusual. I just read The World and Thorinn, Damon Knight's new book. nano-review: Fair to good. Not as good as the reviews have said. This book, too, has a bird-robot in it. --cat ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 1981 12:38:36 EDT (Friday) From: Ward Harriman Subject: ROBOTS: concerning animal like and magical 'robots': animal: Dr. Who's K9. K9 is (obviously) a dog robot with a great diversity of capabilities, not the least of which is to act much like you'd expect a dog who can talk and reason and 'compute' to act! magical: in I ROBOT, what about the robot who could read minds? I won't say any more and avoid a spoiler warning. ward ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 1981 09:18 PDT From: Pettit at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #122 Tin Woodman I would not classify the Tin Woodman as magical robot, but more of a magical cyborg, if anything. The story of the Tin Woodman is: He was an ordinary man in love with a young maid whom a wicked witch, for some reason I forget, did not want him to marry. The witch put a spell on his ax causing him to chop off various parts of himself while cutting trees. Each time he amputated a part, a local tinsmith would fix him up with a prothetic part, until finally he was all made of tin. At no time was there any lapse of personal identity. However, when he got a tin trunk he found that he no longer loved the maiden because he had no heart, and so went in search of one. Incidentally, the same witch put the same spell on the sword of a different man who was in love with the same maiden, and the same tinsmith fixed him up. His name was something like "Major Metal", I think. Anyway he was pictured as having a rather militaristic tin body. In one of the original Baum Oz books, the Tin Woodman and Major Metal meet the man which this tinsmith stitched together Frankenstein-style out of the best amputated parts of both of them, and find that he has married the lass they both loved. There is a lot of philosophical discussion about the locus of personal identity, but the plot of this book is rather weak. If you make a category for the Tin Woodman, put Major Metal in it too. But I'm inclined to think they should be left out of the categorization altogether. (Besides reading as a child most of the juvenile series which have been discussed recently, when I was 8 I went on an Oz binge and read all 42 books in the series, and wished there were more. I was one of those weird kids who went to the public library once a week or more often if I could get a ride, and checked out the limit of 10 books each time. Mostly fantasies of some sort. Doctor Dolittle was another favorite when I was 9, and a lot of Andre Norton books at 10 and 11.) Teri ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 1981 1030-PDT Sender: Daul at OFFICE From: Andrews Subject: friday foolishness: Dr. Ann Atomic #1 This is a series of rather punny stories. I'll hit you with one next friday too unless you beg me not to. (from "Son of Space Cases" by Sharon N. Farber) Introduction The life of a doctor of the stars is fraught with constant dangers and crises. Ann Atomic, the well-known space physician, is equipped to deal with these hazards, with extensive training as a mad doctor and psychosurgeon. She serves the public ceaselessly, both as Clinical Professor of Infernal Medicine at the Lunatech College of Physick and Chirurgery, and in her private practice in that empty region of the cosmos known as the Ann Atomic Dead Space. Here now are more illuminating cases from the files of Dr. Ann Atomic: Foul Play Ann Atomic's old high school friend the enigmatic Shirley U. Gest, was starring in a new theatrical production and as usual sent Ann tickets for the opening night. The theatre was a showboat, aloat in Hades, as the producers wanted to see how well the play would be liked in the Styx. "It's about a quartet of billionaires who attend an auction for Saturn; that's why it titled FOUR BID ON PLfANET," Ann told her fiance Osgood Ascanby. "Sounds forbidding, but at least it's not avant garde--that really puts me on gard," he answered. Unfortunately, the play was written entirely in heroic couplets. "Too bad we aren't on Betelgeuse 7," Osgood groaned. "They've legislated methods of dealing with miserable minstrels who insist on producting putrid poetry." "Yes, I've heard. They let the punishment fit the rhyme," Ann whispered. During the intermission Ann was caled backstage to Shirley's dressing room. Shirley was in poor shape, evincing a constellation of symptoms. "Oh Dear," Ann said, "you've really got a rare one. You seem to have contracted a plant disease, probably harbored within the very boards of the stage." "What's this disease called?" Ann shook her head sadly. "I'm afraid you've got a bad case of Stage Blight." ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 1981 14:38-EDT From: Dennis L. Doughty Subject: Children's stories -- The Lemonade Trick Since we're on the subject of children's stories that have anything at all to do with SF or Magic, does anyone out there remember the Scott Corbett series of books (the "Trick" books)? Some of these were: The Lemonade Trick The Baseball Trick The Hairy Horror Trick etc. These stories concerned three (?) boys, Fenton & two others whose names I can't recall and their dog Waldo who meet Mrs. Graymalkin and her car Nostradamus. Mrs. Graymalkin can only be described as a witch (of the "good" variety). She gives the boys a chemistry set that "used to be her son's" that can do all sorts of wondrous things. I remember reading these as a child and greatly enjoying them. --Dennis ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 1981 1415-PDT (Wednesday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: Astro Boy, Gigantor, Felix the Naughty Kitty, Homer Price, 8th Man All right, kiddies. Let's continue our jaunt down memory lane... Indeed there was an Astro Boy episode where budget cuts threatened his existence. Rather an advanced plot for a kiddie show. --- Gigantor deserves special mention. The kid who controlled this giant robot -- Jimmy Sparks -- did it all with a remote control with just ONE control lever. Amazing. Recently, a punk rock (excuse me, New Wave) group recorded a punk version of the Gigantor theme... same lyrics and basically the same tune... Gigantor, the space age robot, He's at, Your command. Gigantor, the space age robot, His ... power ... is ... in your hands. Bigger than big. Stronger than strong. Quicker than quick. Taller than tall. Ready to fight for RIGHT, Against wrong. Gigantor.... Gigantor.... Gigaaaaaaaannnnnnnnntor. On a sidenote, I also heard a punk version of the "Green Acres" theme fairly recently... --- Felix the Cat was and is one of my favorites. I could fill digests about him. I will simply mention that the Master Cylinder (an ex-student of The Professor's who was always blowing himself up and who ended up with a metal can body) is a fantastic character. So was Pointdextor (the brainy kid who always wore a graduation cap and had a little button in the center of his chest). A particularly impressive character was "Marty the Martian", who travelled around in a "fourth dimensional space capsule". If he were to appear in your vicinity, you would first see a black dot hanging in space. This would expand to a "one dimensional" line, then a 2-D square, then a 3-D cube -- with Marty inside. He would vanish the same way. Felix the Cat plots ranged over a tremendous variety of topics. Sometimes The Professor was evil; sometimes Felix was "babysitting" for him. Sometimes Pointdextor was Felix's friend, sometimes he was a BRAT. By the way, Pointdextor at various times built: a flying saucer, an N-dimensional ladder that traveled all the way to the stars, and a trans-dimensional doorway that opened directly onto Mars. "What will happen to Felix, in the next exciting chapter, of the adventures of Felix the Cat?" "Righteeooooh!" --- I haven't heard the name Homer Price mentioned in years. I can distinctly picture him though... sort of a pear shaped face -- bald as I recall. I only remember one story -- where a doughnut machine goes crazy and starts spilling doughnuts all over the place! --- Finally, anyone out there remember the animated feature "8th Man"?: There's a Prehistoric Monster, Who came from Outer Space, Created by the Martians to destroy the human race. The FBI is helpless, It's 20 stories tall! What shall we do? Who can we call? Call TOBOR, The EIGHTH man. Call TOBOR, The EIGHTH man. Faster than a rocket. Swifter than a jet. He's the mighty robot. He's the one to get. Call TOBOR, The EIGHTH man. Quick, call TOBOR, the mightiest robot of them all! TOBOR had a human brain which had been transplanted into a robot body. Most of the time TOBOR (ROBOT) looked perfectly human, until he needed to exercise his special powers, at which time he'd change to EIGHTH MAN! As I recall, the show was rather arty. I liked it. --- I guess I've been a bit lenghty even for me. Sorry 'bout that, but the digest has diverged into one of those areas where I am a bottomless pit of semi-useless information. See you later .... RIGHTEEEEEEOOOO! --Lauren-- ------------------------------ Date: 17 MAY 1981 1605-PDT From: PEDERSEN at USC-ECL Subject: Astro Boy & Animated SF TV Astro Boy was the creation of Osamu Tezuka, the "Walt Disney" of Japanese animation, who was also largely responsible for the Japanese comic book industry. His Astro Boy series (based on his successful comic book character) started the whole Japanese science fiction explosion. Several of the early animated series from Japan made to American tv in the 60's, but (primarily due to censorship problems) the most recent Japanese product remains unseen in this country, except for very watered-down versions at very odd hours. Of interest is that a new Astro Boy series was produced in Japan in the past year, though it is doubtful that it will reach our shores. However, after the success of Star Wars, the Japanese decided to go after one of the sources of that success - Edmond Hamilton's Captain Future stories - and 52 animated episodes (reasonably true to the original) were produced for Japanese tv - and have been bought for American syndication this fall. Look for them on your neighborhood independent stations. If they are not "edited for American tastes" it should be a fun series. I saw part of the pilot (in the original Japanese) and it looks very good. The Japanese have also been producing a number of very good feature- length animated sf movies (Galaxy Express, Phoenix: 2772, etc) which may make it to America. Also, anyone interested in Japanese tv cartoons, there is an organization in the Los Angeles area that has regular screenings: Cartoon/Fantasy Organization c/o Fred Patten 11863 West Jefferson Blvd. Culver City, CA 90230 - Ted Pedersen ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Summary-line: 21-MAY "JPM at MIT-ML" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #126 *** EOOH *** Date: 21 MAY 1981 0758-EDT From: JPM at MIT-ML Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #126 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS PM Digest Wednesday, 20 May 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 126 Today's Topics: Administrivia - No Missing Digest & Digest Overload, SF Lovers - T-Shirts, SF Books - The Eagle's Gift & Cyber SF & Here's the Plot What's the Title, SF Movies - Outland, Humor - Ann Atomic, SF Topics - Children's stories (Edward Eager) & Children's TV (Japanese animation) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 May 1980 18:42 PST From: The Moderator Subject: Administrivia - No Missing Digest & Digest Overload There was no Tuesday digest this week due to some hardware difficulties at the site where the digests are composed. Hopefully that is behind us now, and dialy transmissions resume with this (the Wednesday) issue. Just a reminder that the backlog of messages to appear in the digest is still large, which means that the turnaround time for the average message is still 4 days. If the message pertains to the current discussions in the digest, then this time is reduced, while if it introduces a new topic of conversation it is increased. Please bear with me during this period. Jim ------------------------------ Date: 19 May 1981 0008-EDT From: JHENDLER at BBNA Subject: thank you I'd like to interrupt this nostalgia to send a thank you to Rodof. I just received my SFL T-shirt, and it's absolutely wonderful!! I shall wear it with pride. -Jim ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 20 May 1981 23:14-PDT Subject: Review of OUTLAND (non spoiler) From: mike at RAND-UNIX Screening of OUTLAND at the Samuel Goldwyn Theatre in Beverly Hills. Review: Another Space Western. Actually a remake. I won't tell you which western, as that would require a spoiler warning. Lots of fun, if you like westerns. ----> LOTS OF GORE <---- Do not see this movie if you don't like blood. In a western, the people are shot and fall into the dust. In space, they decompress and explode. Not pretty. Or very pretty, depends on your taste, I suppose. Set direction: very pretty. In between people dying and exploding, I often said to myself: "My, but that is pretty! I wonder if someone is going to die there?" Acting: Sean Connery is very good as a space marshall. I liked all the performances, but Sean with his Marshall's badge is swell. Didn't like his horse much, though. Favorite technical errors: (1) The "atmospheric bands" of jupiter visibly move in real time. My understanding was that they moved very slowly and that the films of movement from JPL were with time-lapse photography. (2) Decompression. Nice effect, but don't believe that people die that way. Cute, though. (3) The shotguns that work in atmosphere also work in a vacuum. Sure they do. Have fun at the movies! Michael Wahrman ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 1981 12:51-EDT From: John Howard Palevich I, for one, am in favor of pun control. ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 1981 12:52 PDT From: Woods at PARC-MAXC Subject: Juvenile SF&F: Edward Eager Aha, another branch on the nostalgia tree! Yes, I remember "Seven-Day Magic", and "Half Magic" also sounds familiar. By Edward Eager, you say? Could be; I don't really remember much about the stories, and certainly don't recall the author. I seem to remember that Seven-Day Magic involved a group of children borrowing a book, entitled Seven-Day Magic, from the library, and discovering that it was about them (and started with their borrowing the book from the library, etc.), a fine example of recursive literature! Unfortunately, the rest of the pages of their book wouldn't turn until after they'd caught up, and the rest fades from my memory (and would probably require a spoiler). Was Eager the one who kept using the same group of children in a series of magic-related novels? I think the group from Seven-Day Magic was the same as the group in "The Thyme Garden" (or perhaps "The Time Garden"; the plot centered on magical time-travel based on the names of different varieties of thyme). -- Don. ------------------------------ Date: 17 May 1981 0427-PDT From: Jim McGrath Subject: The Eagle's Gift By Richard de Mille (c) 1981 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service) THE EAGLE'S GIFT. By Carlos Castaneda. Simon & Schuster. $12.95. (Richard de Mille is the author of ''Castaneda's Journey'' and ''The Don Juan Papers.'') ''I have no intention of explaining how the correspondence which I now offer to the public fell into my hands.'' Thus C.S. Lewis introduced 150 pages of letters purporting to have passed from ''his Abysmal Sublimity Under Secretary Screwtape'' to a diabolic nephew named Wormwood. ''This is not a work of fiction,'' writes Carlos Castaneda. ''What I am describing is alien to us; therefore, it seems unreal. ... All I can do under the circumstances is present what happened to me as it happened.'' Anyone who thinks the Screwtape Letters were actually composed by a devil in Hell rather than a don Juan in Oxford will no doubt continue to accept Castaneda's don Juan fantasy, now grown to six volumes, as an ''autobiography'' that ''began years ago as field research.'' Less literal-minded readers may not object to my analyzing this latest episode as fiction. To anyone unfamiliar with Castaneda's Mexican Indian wise man saga, let me say that this book is not the right place to begin. The newcomer will find it generally boring and largely incomprehensible. It is a book strictly for Castaneda cultists, and I wish them joy of it. If you liked ''The Second Ring of Power,'' you'll love ''The Eagle's Gift.'' If you never got to, or through, ''Second Ring,'' forget ''Eagle.'' Which is just what Carlos did (Carlos being the protagonist in Castaneda's story). By the spring of 1974, you see, don Juan had taught Carlos all about the Eagle but had also, by hypnotic command, locked this teaching into an inaccessible compartment on the ''left side'' of Carlos's many-chambered mind, whence it has only recently been retrieved by a process of ''dreaming'' shared with Carlos's favorite witch, la Gorda. Many readers will recall their surprise when Castaneda's third book, ''Journey in Ixtlan,'' went back to the very beginning of the psychedelic don Juan story to tell a quite different, drugless version of it. The retelling was supposedly made necessary by Carlos's new appreciation of field notes he had previously set aside. Now Carlos's discovery of the ''left side'' of his mind permits Castaneda to return once more to 1960 and retrace the years, digging up entirely fresh experiences and introducing a large cast of unfamiliar characters. This is really economical. If further buried records can be found, Carlos's 1960-1978 fieldwork may provide all the material needed for the seven additional don Juan volumes I have predicted. The Eagle, if you are interested, is not an eagle but ''the power that governs the destiny of all living beings,'' whose awareness is his food. Seers see it as a jet-black, infinitely tall eagle. Its gift is free will to evade its summons at death and thereby preserve awareness beyond death. The don Juan series is an intricate and apparently interminable allegory of man's relation to another world, into which just about every current social-science, metaphysical, and occultist fashion has been secretly woven. Though it started out as pseudo-ethnography, it is now flagrant Gnosticism, a manual of instructions on how to get out of this inferior world and into a better place without actually perishing. Lots of luck. Over the years, Castaneda's prose has tightened up somewhat but is still plagued by occasional awkwardnesses like ''sets of apparently sisters'' or ''speculations of what don Juan had really done to us.'' It's no secret that publishing houses can't afford real editing any more, but most readers won't miss it. What will dismay them is the deterioration of Castaneda's storytelling, which has lost its lightness, humor, and activity. Characters are defined not by what they do in daily life but by where they fit into the Rule of the Eagle. We never see them working, playing, loving, or even copulating; all they do is sit around symbolizing, in retrospect. Castaneda's need to turn ideas into happenings produces some hideous metaphors: ''When I tried to call Silvio Manuel uncle,'' says la Gorda, ''he nearly ripped the skin off my armpits with his clawlike hands.'' Off her armpits? I haven't the foggiest notion of what idea this obtrusive image stands for in Castaneda's lexicon, but I wish he'd solved the translation problem some other way. Making the annual pilgrimage to the land of their origins, the Huichol Indians enter the place of beginning through a passage they call the Vagina. This bit of genuine ethnography turns up in Castaneda's allegory as the crack between the worlds, as an invisible slit held up by two sorcerers, and as two old women exposing their pudenda to a horrified Carlos. Readers who have not studied meso-American ethnography may be puzzled by such images. On the other hand, when Pablito practices ''not-doing'' (don Juan's answer to the Zen no-mind) by walking backwards, Carlos persuades him to use a rear-view mirror, a ridiculous touch that recalls the pixie humor of Castaneda's better days. ------------------------------ Date: 16 May 1981 01:35:04-PDT From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley Subject: More animal robots A major plot element of Asimov's "Lucky Starr and the Moons of Jupiter" was a dog robot with a positronic brain. In Anderson's "A Circus of Hells", a bored, abandoned computer created robots, many in animal shape, to play chess against itself. ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 1981 22:45:25-PDT From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley Subject: Animal/magical robots One example of a animal-shaped robot is the Sheem Spider, a war robot, in "The Witches of Karres." I'm sure there are others, especially used as probes -- the beetles in Zelazny's Lord of Light, and several bird robots -- I seem to recall those in one of Norton's Witch World novels. How do you define "magical"? What about zombies? And how do you classify the General's horse in "Creatures of Light and Darkness"? If you want to classify religion as magic, there is an old Jewish legend about the Golem of Prague. Seems that the local Jewish community was being threatened, so the local rabbis (who were students of the Kabbala) created a clay being, which was animated via various prayers, etc., but it couldn't speak, since speech had to be bestowed directly by the Almighty. I think a novelization of this story was published in the last few years, perhaps under the title "Sword of the Golem". (Factual footnote: when the folks at the Weizmann (sp?) Institute in Israel built a computer, they named it the Golem in honor of this legend.) ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 1981 14:51-EDT (Wednesday) From: Bat Masterson Subject: Cartoons, etc. Ahhh yes... I remember some of those Saturday morning cartoons (and some of those on at other times as well). The good old days of coming home after school to watch shows like the Flintstones (who can forget them), the Jetsons (the futuristic Flintstones), Astroboy, Gigantor (the larger version of Astroboy [although remote controlled]). Them was the good old days... Anybody seen the Japanese versions of these shows (the Japanese, though, tend to do it live rather than as cartoons). Shows like the Space Giants, Cyborg (<-!!), etc. (I'm sure someone can name some that I haven't seen). BTW: Speaking of breathing under water, anyone remember Aquaboy and his famed Oxy-Gum? (is that right?) ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 1981 0738-PDT Sender: WMARTIN at OFFICE-3 Subject: Here's the plot... From: WMartin at Office-3 (Will Martin) Over in the Human-Nets Digest mailing list, there has been some discussion regarding isomers of normal substances, like sugars, and how they have no calories and are not digested, etc., etc. I recall reading quite recently a novel wherein the hero (who spends his spare time climbing buildings and is a perpetual undergraduate student) gets himself put through some sort of alien reversing machine and discovers that ordinary whiskey suddenly tastes rare and wonderful, among other things. (Later on, he puts bottles of whiskey ;through the device, after being un-reversed himself, and finds that it still tastes great. This latter part seems unscientific; one would think that having the receptors [inside him] being reversed would be a different effect than having the substance itself reversed and feeding normal receptors -- comments?) The plot involves the search for an alien artifact which was traded to us for the Mona Lisa as part of a galactic cultural exchange program. This thing, called a star stone, turns out to be a super-sized virus crystal. Could this have been by Zelazny? (I've read a bunch of stuff by him lately, but from the library, so I can't check it.) Pointers to the author and title would be welcomed. Will Martin (WMartin at Office-3) [ The story is indeed by Zelazny, and is entitled DOORWAYS IN THE SAND. It first appeared as a serial in ANALOG, and then as a Science Fiction Book Club selection. -- Jim ] ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Summary-line: 21-MAY "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #127 *** EOOH *** Date: 21 MAY 1981 1407-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #127 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Thursday, 21 May 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 127 Today's Topics: SF Books - Cyber SF, SF Movies - Outlands, SF TV - Outer Limits, SF Topics - Children's TV (Raideen and 8th Man) & Children's stories (Edward Eager and Mrs. Coverlet's Magicians and Star Surgeon and Mushroom planet) & Physics Today (Anti-sugar) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 May 1981 1106-PDT From: Stuart McLure Cracraft Subject: Bay Area Harlan/Outer Limits fans Channel 20 is showing the two Harlan Ellison Outer Limits episodes this weekend (unbutchered un-like other stations): Saturday 10pm 'Soldier' Sunday 8pm 'Demon with a Glass Hand' ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 1981 0350-EDT From: Dave Touretzky at CMU-10A Subject: review of "Outlands" Review of "Outlands" 5/20/81 "Outlands", starring Sean Connery, is a below-par western with an unusual but unredeeming setting. Connery plays a straightlaced marshal newly arrived in a remote mining settlement, where he uses his fists and a sawed-off shotgun to defeat a corrupt mine operator and his beefy henchmen. The gun battles are seriously underplayed, as the director preferred to devote most of his special effects efforts to the depiction of -- get ready -- explosive decompressions. The "outlands" turn out to be the moons of Jupiter, not some stretch of Arizona desert, but Outlands is a shoot-em-up (or blow-em-up) western all the same. When Connery walks through the swinging double doors (!) of the canteen and everyone in the room falls silent, one can't help but appreciate the director's tongue-in-cheek acknowledgment of this fact. There are two features I pay special attention to in science fiction movies: future sociology, and future technology. Outlands does miserably in both areas. It fails sociologically because it makes use of such severe sexual stereotyping that it would be barely tolerable in a 1980's setting, much less a futuristic one. Lines like "my hookers are clean, and some of them are even good looking" are offensive, not funny, when this is someone's idea of what life will be like a few centuries from now. Connery's wife is a whining ninny who deserts him early in the film because she can't stand settlement towns. She leaves behind a video message saying that she has left with their son to go back East -- I mean back to Earth. The other female characters are prostitutes or low-level technicians, except for a courageous woman doctor who helps Connery battle the bad guys. Sexists traditionally view such strong women as unfeminine, and this one isn't going to break any molds. She's unaccountably grumpy, middle aged, a self-described "old wreck". Connery befriends her by threatening to "kick her ass." Technologically, Outlands is a joke, full of inconsistencies. People communicate via electronic videomail, yet their CRT terminals run at 110 baud and make silly clacking noises. The entire base is monitored by closed circuit TV cameras with remote control zoom, tilt, and pan, yet the images they display are only black and white, not color. The scene where Connery "taps" a fiber optic communications line (actually an RS-232 connector!) is particularly absurd, since one would expect that secure communications would have become standard long before that time. One good thing this movie forecasts for the future is the elimination of handguns. The police carry sawed-off shotguns and the bad guys use rifles with sniperscopes. Don't ask why such heavy artillery is necessary in the close confines of a space settlement, or why the lawmen of the future can't use tranquilizers instead of bullets. Just sit back and enjoy the movie, podner. And root for the man with the badge. -- Dave Touretzky ------------------------------ From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE Subject: Re: Juvenile SF&F: Edward Eager Yes indeed, he did use the same group of children. Actually he used two groups, one group being the children of members of the first. Knight's Castle, Seven-Day Magic, Half Magic, and the Time Garden (it was a thyme garden, remember) involved these kids. In two of the books, they meet each other -- I think in the Time Garden and in Half Magic -- I remember checking to see if the two versions of the same meeting were consistent (they were). Eager also wrote the Well Wishers and Magic Or Not, but these used other sets of kids. The Half Magic book had some very funny spots, since the magic coin only gives you half your wish. So if you wish to go from X to Y, you end up halfway there, or half of you get there....The scene where one of them inadvertently wishes that the cat could talk is hilarious. --cat ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 1981 1704-PDT From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE Subject: more animal robots Courtesy of my wife: 1) The Godwhale by T.J.Bass is about a part organic part mechanical whale. 2) There is a robot talking bird in "Quest of the Gypsy" by Ron Goulart in Weird Heroes Vol I. (the bird is a vulture. there also are androids and cyborgs.) 3) In the story Usher II (Bradbury's Martian Chronicles/Silver Locusts) there is a rat, metal fleas -- " It fell over, the rat did, and from its nylon fur streamed an incredible horde of metal fleas." Also an ape, white mice, bats, a rabbit, a mock-turtle, and a dormouse. 4) In Zelazny's Lord of Light, when Mora comes to the temple in the beginning of the book, there is a Mechobra -- mechanical cobra -- and also a beetle (p. 37). 5) Fahrenheit 451 (Bradbury) has The Mechanical Hound. 6) There is a story that appeared in 10th Best SF or some such, edited probably by Merrill (we can't find the book) which has a robot tiger named Ben. The tiger is controlled, not autonomous. 7) In an old story about the death of a house (Bradbury?) there are little robot mice that scream fire! fire! while trying to extinguish the flames. 8) The Witches of Karres (Schmidtz (sp?)) has a spider robot called the Sheem Spider. It is supposed to be a replica of a fiercesome spider beastie, made even more dangerous with a few high-tech features. (The Agandar uses it). I think I weeded out all the ones you had already listed. If not, sorry! good reading, --cat ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 1981 08:58 PDT From: Reed.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Kiddy Kartoons While we are on the subject of kiddy kartoons, we should probably talk about the many strange and wonderful(?) treats the Japanese have served us up. The show that comes to mind first for me is Raideen. This featured a large robot called Raideen which is constantly battling the forces of evil. A few things make this show worthy of note. First, the robot is actually controlled by one of the boys featured in the show. He gets on is motorcycle, zooms up to speed while Raideen appears out of a nearby mountain, and at the last minute, the cycle flips him up and into the head of Raideen. Then he falls gently through a long vertical corridor into Raideen's heart where he begins flying around killing the baddies. Very psychedelic. Another interesting feature of this series is the amount of sexual innuendo in it. Not a lot by some standards, but far more than you would ever find on an American feature. Two scenes stand out in my mind. In one, three boys and a girl are being chased by an evil flying robot monster. The boys take great delight when the airwash blows the girl's skirt up for a very nice view. My favorite scene from the whole series concerns an evil, woman-shaped robot which is armed to the teeth. When Raideen comes after it (her?), rockets come firing straight out of her breasts! Raideen was rather heavily promoted as well. My roommates ordered all sorts of toys from them. No female robots, though. -- Larry -- ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 1981 0035-EDT From: CSH at MIT-DMS (Cynthia S. Hanley) Subject: Tobor the 8th Man Tobor the 8th Man plot: As I recall the first episode, a young man sees a elderly man under attack and goes to the rescue. He is shot driving the attackers away and dying, so the elderly man (a scientist, of course) takes his to his lab and implants his brain into his latest creation, the eighth version of a robot he is developing. When the young man awakens, he reacts with horror and is still recovering from the mental shock when the attackers return and suceed in killing the scientist. Beyond this point, memory is vague, I seem to recall Tobor as being a policeman before he is shot. ---CSH ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 1981 00:43:28-PDT From: CSVAX.halbert at Berkeley Subject: another Nourse book A young people's SF book by Nourse I liked a lot was STAR SURGEON, about a medical ship traveling to a number of planets and fixing the inhabitants' ills. The story is told from the point of view of a humanoid, who was (I think) the first non-human to get into the medical service (medicine was Earth's specialty). This perspective, and the unusual premise of the story made for a very good book. --Dan ------------------------------ Date: 8 MAY 1981 1524-PDT From: RODOF at USC-ECL Subject: Mushroom planet Good God, I'd forgotten that one -- along with the Danny Dunn, Tom Swift, Rick Brant, and Freddie The Pig stories. Yeah, that was a fun one -- didn't the two boys actually nail a flying saucer to their ship's nose, and take Oxygen pills, and have to wear clothespins on their noses to keep themselves from breathing in space? The whole thing sounded like the author had been eating too many mushrooms himself. Speaking of jarred memories, I remember an odd book that I got from the children's section of the library back when I was about seven that I could never find again once I had grown up enough to realize how strange it was. I remember neither title nor author, but it involved a Jules Verne like trip to all the planets, written in a very Verne-like style, and the one thing that sticks in my mind is when the crew landed on the sun (!) and had to take all their clothes off because of the heat, and ran around on the surface (!) looking at all the volcanos that gave off the light... Strike any chords? By the way, along with mentioning Rick Brant (Which tended to be a little more scientifically accurate than Tom Swift), and Freddie the Pig, let me mention a few more childhood faves, to wit: The Mad Scientist's Club, Alvin Ferdinand and a book called Scoop. Both Scoop, (which should have been a series, but wasn't, as far as I know) and especially the Mad Scientists Club went to great pains to be as technologically accurate as possible. I even ended up building a few of the pranky devices they came up with, and they worked fine, although TMSC was no how-to book. They built flying saucers and Loch Ness Monsters and such like, radio-controlled and made from chicken wire. Even as I look back, now, I am still pretty impressed. Anyone else read these? Rodof ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 1981 1803-PDT From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE Subject: mushroom books According to the Children's Books in Print, only Stowaway to the Mushroom Planet is available in paperback. The others, The Wonderful Flight to the Mushroom Planet A Mystery For Mr. Bass Mr. Bass's Planetoid Time and Mr. Bass are available in expensive ($8.95 to $10.95) hardback. --cat ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 1981 1315-PDT (Friday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: Mrs. Coverlet's Magicians Egads! Stale bread crumb pudding! I haven't thought about that book in years. To be specific, the kid (what WAS his name?) sent away for a do-it-yourself voodoo kit from the back of a comic book... and used it to control his temporary live-in babysitter -- who made him eat horrid things like Rutabaga... I too was a member of the Weekly Reader club. I find this discussion of children's SF, etc. to be among the most interesting I have seen in SFL since its inception, particularly in terms of nostalgia value! --Lauren-- ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 1981 (Thursday) 2350-EDT From: SHRAGE at WHARTON-10 (Jeffrey Shrager) Subject: Anti-sugar This one's straight out of any number of SFs beginning, in my mind, with StarTrek. It is from a radio news brief made by the local station so I cannot vouch for its validity: A high-tech bio-chem firm has announced the devlopement of a zero-calorie sugar "substitute". This compound apparently exhibits "left-handedness" in structure whereas the body can digest only right-handed organic compounds. [note, I may have this backward] The new sugar is simply the wrong-handed version of regular sugar so it is passed completely thru the digestive tract but tastes "exactly" the same as regular sugar. The firm [whose name I have forgoetten] said that the idea is not really new [they probably got it from watching ST] but that there had not been a good way of producing the chemical before. They are investigating merging minds (and money) with major sugar manufacturers in order to mass produce the stuff. The FDA, of course, is making the firm run about 10000 rats worth of tests before it can go public. My reaction to this is best summarized by an exclaimation point! [ This story is indeed true. As mentioned in a message in volume 3, issue 126, the HUMAN-NETS digest has been discussing this issue for the past few weeks. Anyone interested in observations relating to this discovery should send a message to HUMAN-NETS-REQUEST for instructions on how to examine that mailing lists archives. -- Jim ] ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 22-MAY "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #128 *** EOOH *** Date: 22 MAY 1981 0820-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #128 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Friday, 22 May 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 128 Today's Topics: SF Books - "There Will Come Soft Rains", SF Movies - Jason and the Argonauts & Outland, SF Topics - Price of Books & Anti-Sugar & Children's stories (Freddie the Pig and Tom Swift) & Children's TV (Felix the Cat and 8th Man and Japanese animation) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 May 81 1:21-PDT From: mclure at Sri-Unix Subject: quick Delphi poll What do you think will be the price of an "average" American paperback book 20 years from now in 2001? Currently the average seems to be about $2 to $3. I'll collect the responses and send the result back to SF-Lovers. Replies to mclure@sri-unix. [ NOT to SF-LOVERS directly. -- Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 1981 16:05 PDT From: Drysdale at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #127 The story about the death of a house with robot mice is "There Will Come Soft Rains" from \Martian Chronicles/ by Bradbury. Also, as I remember the Asimov robot series (\I Robot/?) introduces robot birds and other creatures to make people feel comfortable about being around robots, but none are major characters. Scot ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 1981 13:10:03-PDT From: CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley Subject: sf-lovers--emergency entry Sorry for not sending this in sooner, but fantasy film freaks should know about Ray Harryhausen's appearance on the Berkeley campus this Saturday (the 23rd), along with a showing of Jason and the Argonauts. It's being done as part of a tribute by the Pacific Film Archive, a worthy cause in itself, and costs $3. Wheeler Auditorium at 8 PM. Steve ------------------------------ Date: 21-May-81 11:02:49 PDT (Thursday) From: Hamilton.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Another review of OUTLAND Definitely \not/ SF. An attempt at a sort of surrealist Western (one might make a very stretched analogy to Eastwood's "The Gauntlet"). Unfortunately, the surreal often comes dangerously close to the camp. Sean Connery, in a Clint Eastwood/ Gary Cooper role, is the befuddled Marshall, and Peter Boyle is his rather wooden foe. The dialog is awful, and the plot not much better. And don't bother to ask what a titanium mine is doing on Io, whose surface consists largely of molten sulphur volcanoes. "Designer" spacesuits light up each character's face like a Times Square marquee. The best aspect of the film is an interesting score from Jerry Goldsmith. Is anyone else as sick and tired as I am of CRT's that run at 110 bps, and even \sound/ like Teletypes? --Bruce ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 1981 19:57 PDT From: Newman.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: OUTLAND It's unfair to accuse OUTLAND of being sexist and retrogressive just because the society it portrays is sexist. By this line of argument, "1984" is a fascist book because it portrays a totalitarian society, and "All Quiet on the Western Front" is a war-mongering movie because it shows the atrocities of World War I. Nonsense. Clearly it's possible for an artist to use the depiction of evil as a statement against that evil. I found OUTLAND's portrayal of "future sociology" on the frontiers of space quite believable: more believable, in fact, that the utopian scenarios put forth by our current crop of space-colony advocates. I don't like the society shown there any more than you do, but current events in the U.S. demonstrate that technological advances need not go hand-in-hand with social progress. /Ron ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 1981 2316-EDT From: Dave Touretzky at CMU-10A Subject: Re: OUTLAND We have made *significant* social progress towards eliminating sexism, although it's true that we have a long way to go before the problem is solved. To ignore this progress, and depict a distant future in which people are as deeply welded into nonproductive sexual stereotypes as they were ten years ago, is to deny the existence, and even the validity, of movements that are trying to bring about the necessary changes. Be realistic: do you really think the makers of Outland wanted to make a pessimistic statement about how "technological advances need not go hand-in-hand with social progress"? I don't think they're capable of such deep thought; certainly they haven't demonstrated it anywhere else in the movie. Outland presents the sociological picture it does because that picture contains the timeworn macho, violent, sexist elements that Hollywood thinks are necessary ingredients for a good western. Nowhere in the movie does anyone make the statement that sexism in the Outland society is a bad thing. They don't even appear aware that it is there at all! Outlands makes no statements whatsoever. It's a cheap, trashy shoot-em-up movie with wooden characters and no conscience. To compare it to such great works as 1984 is ludicrous. ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 21 May 1981 17:43-PDT Subject: Re: Outland and sexual stereotypes From: mike at RAND-UNIX Dave Touretzky finds Outland implicit predictions offensive because, among other things, there are hookers on a mostly male planet. Whether or not prostitution is sexist or offensive, as a prediction it is probably as safe as any prediction could be. Prostitution is as old as history. (Or, at least, Western history. I know very little really about the East). For whatever reason it exists, I do not see it going away today or tomorrow, unless human nature changes. And it is a premise of the movie that human nature is very recognizable in the future. Predicting prostitution in the future is as safe as predicting violence in the future. ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 1981 15:42:17-EDT From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Outland technicalities There have been a number of questionable remarks about the technology shown in OUTLANDS. I'd like to put in my two cents worth: 1. Of \\course// a shotgun will work in vacuum, just like the shuttle boosters work in vacuum (or near enough to it by the time they burn out). It's true that explosion is extremely fast combustion; in fact, it's so fast that most explosives are mostly (by weight) oxidizer to provide to provide the oxygen for the fuel to burn in (e.g., gunpowder (per Piper's LORD KALVAN OF OTHERWHEN) is 75% KNO3 (oxidizer), 15% C (fuel), 10% S (catalyst); the shuttle booster fuel is 70% NH4ClO4). [ A series of messages from ihnss!karn at BERKELEY, icl.redford at SU-SCORE, and Obrien at RAND-UNIX also touched upon this point. Thanks are due to each and everyone of them. -- Jim ] 2. Shotguns versus tranquilizers--trank darts are usually designed with short points to minimize damage to internal organs. Through any sort of space suit this would be a problem, as would strength (I'm told that the darts are pretty fragile). Finally, trank darts are expensive, as are the rifles to shoot them, and who ever heard of a rough frontier spending money to be gentle? (Note with reference to point 1 that trank darts may also rely more on aerodynamic stabilization than bullets, which are ballistically stabilized). 3. Very slow transmission on CRT's is endemic to Hollywood (as are CRT's with large screens but short lines); this is partly a camera problem and partly acknowledgment of the fact that lots of moviegoers have to move their lips when they read. 110 baud is a reasonable speech rate for the average person, while 300 is tongue-twisting and unintelligible. Clacking? The public electronic mail terminal in my office clacks (although I think that's partly a key function). 4. I'm familiar with some security systems; most of them choose controllable videocameras in preference to color. Both control and color are getting cheaper, but control was cheaper to begin with. (Again, iit can be a question of cost--how much use would color be, given what people were wearing/would wear on a frontier?). Not that I'm defending the film; I expect to snicker when I see it. But I like to pick at reasonable nits. ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 1981 16:07-EDT From: "Kenneth W. Haase, Jr." A bicycle ride down memory lane! I remember RODOF's books fondly. Freddie the Pig was an old standard, along with the Mad Scientists Club.... I too tried building some of the things in the Mad Scientists Club, but my technical competence was not really up to it. Freddie the Pig was about an intelligent barnyard, and the intellectual of the place, a pig named Fredrick was a detective, a pilot, and half a dozen other things. Great stuff! Alvin Fernald is an old favorite too - Disney made the Alvin Fernald books into a series of tv-movies which were pretty good (considering....) Anybody remember them? Ken Haase ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 1981 08:22-EDT From: Brian P. Lloyd Subject: Nostalgia (Tom Swift and Felix the Cat) Ah yes...The good old days. Such greats as Tom Swift and Felix the Cat. When I was twelve I decided to amass the entire Tom Swift Jr. collection and was successful (TSj by Victor Appleton III). You remember such greats as Tom Swift Jr and his... ...Flying Lab - Atomic powered Aircraft ...Atomic Jetmarine - Atomic powered two-man Sub ...Atomic Earth Blaster - mining equipment ...Outpost in Space - Space Manufacturing of efficient solar battery ...Electronic Retroscope - "Restores" old cave writing et al ...Triphibian Atomicar ...Trip to the Moon - Repalatron (sic) powered Spacecraft I could go on and on as I collected 36 of these things. They did turn me on to SF however (hooked at only nine years old [Damn! that was almost 20 years ago]). For you Felix the Cat lovers: Felix the Cat The wonderful, wonderful Cat When ever he gets in a fix he reaches into his bag of tricks Felix the Cat The wonderful, wonderful Cat You'll laugh so hard your sides will ache Your heart will go pitter-pat Watching Felix the wonderful Cat. Righteeeeooooo!!! Brian Lloyd [ Another message from duke!unc!smb at BERKELEY also provided the theme song for FELIX THE CAT. -- Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 1981 06:02:01-PDT From: decvax!duke!unc!tyg at Berkeley Subject: 8th Man As i recall, 8th Man also had recharging problems. His way of getting a recharge was to suck on energy cylinders or some such which looked like cigarettes. A common problem was using these in no smoking areas. Also, didn't he work as a P.I.? With a secretary. Also, i remember Rocket Robin Hood. While ok it was never one of my favorites since even at age 8 i saw a basic inconsistency in using bow and arrows against advanced technology. Nostalgically tom galloway ------------------------------ Date: 21 MAY 1981 1638-PDT From: PEDERSEN at USC-ECL Subject: Japanese Animation (Censorship) In response to some questions re Japanese Animation, particularly "censorship": First, understand the basic difference between animation in this country and overseas (particularly Japan). In Japan (and Europe), animation is considered a respectable art form and the "content" of the material determines its audience. Some very adult cartoon series (violence, sex, etc) are telecast in Japan. One is the James Bond-style "Lupin" series, another is the kid series "Devil Man" which has people dying, heads chopped off and some pretty horrible monsters. In this country we tend to consider anything animated as "kid stuff". This is beginning to change somewhat ("Fritz the Cat", "Lord of the Rings", "Watership Down", etc) but very, very slowly. Japan (which, touch of irony, is about the safest country in the world - I would not be afraid to walk through downtown Tokyo after midnight, which I hesitate to do the same in Los Angeles) puts a lot of violence in all their cartoons - and some not-too- subtle bits of sex - all of which must be eliminated for fear of harming American children. Japanese cartoon series also tend to be syndicated in the early morning or late afternoon hours, when small children are supposed to be the prime audience. The series were originally intended for much older audiences and thus the American censors and executives- in-charge feel that not only violence and sex must be eliminated, most of the story also has to go. The Japanese try to tell stories in their cartoons, where we have been conditioned to changing the scene every half minute, no matter what else is going on. (Try to outline a few American tv episodics - you'll find lots of scene changes, very little continuity in the story.) What you see in the way of Japanese cartoons (excepting the early shows of the '50's and '60's when we hadn't learned the fine art of censorship) bares very little relationship to the originals. Which is too bad, since so much of their work (particularly in science fiction) is very good and deserves to be seen uncut. Ted Pedersen ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 1981 1509-PDT From: Dolata at SUMEX-AIM Subject: Sugars, whisk(e)y and reversals There are two different approaches to 'fat free' sugars now under examination; wrong isomers, and plastic bound. The wrong isomer approach is the simplest, and is exactly as described so far, the wrong sugar is indigestible to the body (sort of like cellulose) and so goes right out with the urine. The second approach actually chemically binds sugar 'residues' to plastic backbones in a fashion remaniscient to sugars on a DNA backbone. The sugars are free to bind with the taste receptors, but cannot pass membranes and slide right through the GI tract, thus they cannot be metabolized, and provide no energy. It is expected that several years of testing will be necessary before acceptance of this product will be forthcoming. However, this cannot have anything to do with the taste of 'reversed' whisk(e)y, since sugars do not distill. The main flavorings in Uesgebaugh are various low molecular weight aldehydes (bad guys) ketones, esters, acids, and other alcohols. Complete analysis of the composition of these side products is not generally released (proprietary info) but those analysis I have seen indicate that of these, less than 2% (which themselves comprise only 1-3%) are optically active, i.e. can be changed by 'reversal'. Of course, all bets are off if the hero was using cheap colored pot whisk(e)y. Nobody knows what they put in that junk... Dolata@sumex-aim ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 23-MAY "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #129 *** EOOH *** Date: 23 MAY 1981 1010-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #129 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Saturday, 23 May 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 129 Today's Topics: SF Books - Cyber SF & Outland, SF Movies - Outland, SF Topics - Children's stories (Mushroom Planet and Alan Garner and Tom Corbett) & Children's TV (Rocky and His Friends) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 May 1981 at 0024-CDT From: hjjh at UTexas-11 Sender: LRC.SLOCUM at UTEXAS-20 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ CYBER-SF (AND INCOMMUNICADO-NESS) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ UTEXAS' connection to the ARPANET has been inoperative for most of the past 2 weeks, so my communications have been frustratingly curtailed. 2 or 3 messages DID get thru (but \not/ SF-L itself) inwards, tho Heaven only knows how. They must have had pretty persistent mailers. Anyhow, don't give up on me, please. The info I \have/ gotten on robots has been so useful. If "the part" for the IMP doesn't get here by next week, I'll find another helpful friend's account like the one I'm using for this message and be able to have minimal communication. RE-- the Tin Woodman and Major Metal. Evidently they are magical and EX-CYBORG in Type. Thanks for the explanation. RE-- animal robots. The list has grown (yet remains overwhelmingly canine and avian): Bunch, D.R., MODERAN Dick, P.K., DO ANDROIDS DREAM OF ELECTRIC SHEEP? __________, DR WHO Goulart, Ron, AFTER THINGS FELL APART [dogs] Goulart, Ron, CALLING DR. PATCHWORK Goulart, Ron, HAIL HIBBLER Goulart, Ron, WHIFF OF MADNESS, A [guard dogs, horse, birds] Harrison, M.J., PASTEL CITY; [birds] Heath, P., MIND BROTHERS; [nightingale] Heath. P., ASSASSINS FROM TOMORROW [hound-like tracking device] High, P.E., INVADER ON MY BACK [birds, dogs] High, P.E., MAD METROPOLIS; [insects] High, P.E., NO TRUCE WITH TERRA Larson, et al., "Battlestar Galactica" series (Laumer, K., LONG TWILIGHT;) ? Leiber, F., SILVER EGGHEADS; [auto-dog] Saberhagen, F., (Berserker novel) [wolf] Sheckley, R., JOURNEY BEYOND TOMORROW Stasheff, C., WARLOCK IN SPITE OF HIMSELF; Zelazny, R., CHANGELING; [birds+] Any others? ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 1981 13:26:25-PDT From: CSVAX.william at Berkeley Subject: OUTLAND My roommate bought an OUTLAND paperback last week. I had to put it down after 20 pages because it was totally obnoxious to read. It seems like the writer has outdone himself again, creating a worthless story & no plot. I seem to remember a story by A. Clark concerning Jupiter V. It had a situation where someone was thrown off the moon and they were able to reach him by waiting one full orbit of the moon for him to return to the same spot. It takes an impressive amount of energy to move between the moons of Jupiter, and you can't fall into Jupiters gravity well just by jumping off the moon. You have way too much kinetic energy... Bill Jolitz. ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 1981 1737-PDT From: Jim McGrath Subject: Outland Review OUTLAND By VINCENT CANBY c. 1981 N.Y. Times News Service NEW YORK - ''Not many people here have both oars in the water,'' says flinty Dr. Marian Lazarus (Frances Sternhagen), to Bill O'Niel (Sean Connery), the newly arrived federal district marshal who has been assigned to the remote mining camp to maintain law and order. Doc Lazarus is no easier on herself, being aware that the kind of physicians who take jobs in remote mining camps usually are, as she puts it, one step ahead of a malpractice suit. Doc Lazarus is an exception, as is Bill O'Niel, who refuses to wink or look away when strange things start happening at the camp, even though production is up and profits are soaring. When the showdown comes, as it must, it's Bill O'Niel and Doc Lazarus against the world, as represented by the mining company's greedy agents. Peter Hyams's ''Outland'' may be the oddest-looking western you've ever seen, being set not on the American frontier, where it's always 1870, but in outer space, specifically on Io, the third moon of Jupiter, some time in the not-too-distant future. It's also a movie of unexpected pleasures, including some uncommonly handsome science-fiction sets, a straightforward narrative that recalls ''High Noon'' without that film's holy seriousness, some wonderfully effective chases through the darkest interiors of this huge, hermetically sealed moon camp, plus two staunch, robust performances by Connery and Miss Sternhagen. ''Outland'' is what most people mean when they talk about good escapist entertainment. It won't enlarge one's perceptions of life by a single millimeter, but neither does it make one feel like an idiot for enjoying it so much. Nothing in Hyams's ealier credits as a writer-director (''Hanover Street,'' ''Capricorn One,'' ''Busting'') prepares the viewer for the unpretentious achievement of ''Outland,'' in which Bill O'Niel takes his stand against a murderous fellow named Sheppard (Peter Boyle), the mining company's chief agent on Io. It seems that Sheppard, with the knowledge of the federal marshal who preceded O'Niel, has been importing from earth and distributing to the miners a synthetic drug that for eight or nine months increases the user's work capacity before turning his mind to oatmeal. Thus the explanation for the high suicide rate at the mining camp. How Big Bill faces this challenge is pretty much the story of ''Outland,'' though a lot of the fun in watching it also comes from the look of the ersatz physical world created by Hyams and his associates, principally Philip Harrison, the production designer, and John Stears, the special-effects supervisor. More interesting even than all the fancy,obligatory gadgetry are the mining camp's surreal living spaces - sleeping quarters that look like stacks of roomy, designer bird-cages, large, shadowless mess halls and a swinging discotheque, featuring sound-and-laser-beam pornography and prostitutes to take the miners' minds (or what's left of them) off the boredom of their work. Hyams doesn't pay too much attention to the private lives of his principal characters. Dear Doc Lazarus has none at all, and Bill O'Niel's wife, Carol (Kirka Markham), flees from Io quite early in the movie. After eight years she's become fed up with living in one space mining camp after another and decides to take their son back to earth, which he's neve seen. From that time on, Carol is no more than a face seen on a television monitor from time to time. The serious business of ''Outland'' is Big Bill's decision to fight Io's traffic in dope and, by indirection, to bring some humanity back to a world made entirely out of synthetics. Hyams has the good sense not to stress that last point. It goes without saying in the action we see on the screen, and in movies like ''Outland,'' action is intellect and sensibility as well as an end in itself. This film is rated R. ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 1981 1451-EDT From: Eirikur Hallgrimsson Subject: Mushroom Planet Author/Publisher While the books must be in a box someplace, somehow my memory has not been effected by the general malaise. There is a fourth book: 'Time and Mr. Bass' written some years later. The series was by Eleanor Cameron, and was published by Little,Brown. I harbor a wistful affection for the atmosphere that she created. --Eirikur ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 1981 1208-PDT (Thursday) From: Mike at UCLA-SECURITY (Michael Urban) Subject: Juvenilia Some juvenile-marketed fantasies I have first read and enjoyed as an adult: Alan Garner: The Weirdstone of Brisingamen The Moon of Gomrath Garner takes a real locale in Cheshire (I have a copy of the Ordinance Survey Map), a healthy dose of Welsh and other folklore, mixes thoroughly and produces spectacular results. Weak characterizations, though. In fact, he didn't write a third in the series because "I was sick of the little twits," meaning the children who are the main characters. So instead, he wrote Elidor ---- Well, it STARTS as a sort of rip-off of the Irish Book of Invasions, with Childe Rowland thrown in for good measure, but ends up as a passage-to-adulthood story. Pretty good. The Owl Service -- Supposedly, this book is for teenagers. Sure, if the teenager has a degree in Celtic folklore. Superb reworking of the Fourth Branch of the Mabinogion, and at many levels. Interesting ending. Red Shift -- Three interwoven stories of young people at three points in British history. Sometimes obscure, but rewarding. Again, the "juvenile" label is dumb marketing. Susan Cooper, The Dark is Rising This is a series of 5 books, the last of which is a Newberry winner. The first (and weakest) is hard to find as it is from a different publisher. They are reminiscent in some ways of the early Alan Garner, but more original in their imagery. The biggest problem is the lack of real conflict. Characters are constantly reassured that nothing serious will happen to them. In spite of this, Cooper is able to produce some ringing scenes! The titles: Over Sea, Under Stone The Dark is Rising Greenwitch The Grey King Silver on the Tree I should also mention Joy Chant's "Red Moon, Black Mountain" and Ursula LeGuin's "Earthsea" books, which were also originally marketed as juveniles. Mike ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 1981 1028-EDT Sender: PKAISER at BBND Subject: Tom Corbett books From: Peter Kaiser Tom Corbett wasn't just on TV; there was also a series of books. I have one of them, "Tom Corbett and the Space Pirates". It's good! ---Pete ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 1981 1922-PDT (Friday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: And now here's something we hope you'll REALLY like... No discussion of television animation and SF can possibly be complete without some serious consideration of the superb J. Ward productions of the 60's. These included such features as ROCKY AND HIS FRIENDS, THE BULLWINKLE SHOW (actually a repackaging of Rocky and His Friends), HOPPITY HOOPER, GEORGE OF THE JUNGLE, and several others. At least one classic live-action program, FRACTURED FLICKERS, also came forth from the creative genius of the facility. Of all these, Rocky and His Friends is deserving of the most mention in the context of this discussion. The classic program, beginning with the immortal: "A loop, a whirl, a verticle climb, and once again you'll know it's time for ROCKY (and his friends). Starring that supersonic speedster, Rocket J. Squirrel. (And his friend, Bullwinkle the Moose)." was clearly produced for an adult audience, and was far ahead of its time. Each half hour program consisted of two episodes of the serial adventures of Rocky and Bullwinkle, plus additional features such as the wonderful "Fractured Fairy Tales" (narrated by Edward Everett Horton), or the adventures of Peabody and Sherman (and their Wayback machine, which allowed them to visit past eras "as they might have been" (not, necessarily, as they WERE). In the course of a variety of serial adventures, each of which lasted for many weeks, Rocky and Bullwinkle underwent some amazing situations, including: 1) The search for the Moosberry bush. Only Bullwinkle can locate the bush whose berries are needed by the U.S. for use as a rocket fuel additive. Of course, Boris Badinoff and Natasha (the evil agents from Pottslvania) are doing all they can to thwart their efforts.) [Boris and Natasha, by the way, were under the command of "Fearless Leader", who in turn reported to the sinister "Mr. Big".] 2) The Kerwood Derby. A special derby is invented with an unusual property. If you put it on, your mind is reduced to the level of a very young child. A serious brain drain results. 3) HUSHABOOM. A silent explosive. Truly sinister. 4) UPSIDASIUM. An anti-gravity metal is discovered. In fact, an entire mountain of it (floating in the air, of course, where nobody ever noticed it) is found. At the end of this segment, Mr. Big greedily grabs a bullion of upsidasium and disappears into space. 5) The metal munching moon mice. TV antennas are disappearing all over the country. The populace, not having anything else to do when TV's don't work, takes to watching clothes dryers and other related items with glass windows. The economy is at a standstill. Turns out that Mr. Big ended up on the moon, formed a dictatorship over the moonmen, and started building large robot mice that were sent to Earth to eat the antennas and cause the economic collapse. In this series, we meet those two moonmen, Ernie and Floyd. They have an interesting weapon, a "freeze" device known as a "Scrooch" gun: "How long did you scrooch him for, Floyd?" "Uh, I had it set to "10"." "10 what?" "I don't know. It doesn't say." A variety of other episodes, including one in which the economy is thrown into shambles due to masses of counterfeited box-tops, were also produced. --- Hopefully the above is enough to trigger more than a few fond memories. Watching these programs as an adult (when they infrequently re-appear as local fillers) yields an array of humor that was missed as a child: Boris attempts to derail the train on which Rocky and Bullwinkle are riding, by using a crowbar. Unfortunately, it is an ELECTRIC train, and Boris tries to lift the third rail. He ends up sizzling and crackling at right angles from the crowbar as the train passes by. Bullwinkle sees him through the window: "Hey Rocky! I just saw some guy who was all lit up!" Rocky: "He must have come from the club car." --- With the fading of J. Ward from the scene, some of the most sophisticated animated entertainment of the 60's also faded into oblivion... --- "Hey Rocky! Watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat!" "But that trick NEVER works!" "THIS TIME FOR SURE!" --- [Three cheers for Frostbite Falls!] --Lauren-- ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 25-MAY "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #130 *** EOOH *** Date: 25 MAY 1981 0816-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #130 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS PM Digest Sunday, 24 May 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 130 Today's Topics: SF Fandom - Disclave Flyer, SF Books - Cyber SF, SF Movies - Outland, SF Topics - Children's TV (Galaxy Express and Rocky and Bullwinkle) & Anti-Sugar ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 May 1981 16:21:23-EDT From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: cartoon As long as we're talking about the Tin Woodman and his origins, has anyone else (besides the people \\known// to go to conventions) seen the flyer for this year's Disclave? It includes a cartoon by Alexis Gilliland (winner of last year's Fan Artist Hugo award). The Wizard (one of his stock figures, all straggly beard and warty nose) is counseling the Tin Woodman, "The First Law is for humans, Nick, and Fans are Slans." Nick, leaning on his ax, is obviously pleased. ------------------------------ Date: 24 May 1981 1616-PDT From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE Subject: animal and magical robots, children's books The short story with the mechanical tiger is named "Tiger,Tiger". For some magical animal robot possibilities, see below. In answer to an old question about sentience, it is possible that the "brain-eating" robots who are controlled from a central computer in Harrison's The Pastel City fit the bill (lack individual sentience). The magically animated statue/god that Conan meets is from the story "The Bloodstained God" in Conan of Cimmeria. I need a better idea of what is wanted for magical robots. (the following suggestions, again, are due to my wife): It seems that you don't want to allow organic (android-like) magical robots, because if you do, many elves, dwarves, trolls, and zombies will fit the classification. For instance, the trolls in Lord of the Rings, magic creatures in The Warlock in Spite of Himself, etc.etc. are magically created beings. However, this distinction is not an easy one to make. For a classic example, consider the Pinocchio story (written by Collodi in 1883). Part way through the story, Pinocchio is a magically animated toy. But eventually, Pinocchio becomes a real live flesh and blood boy. So is Pinocchio a magic robot? In Pygmalion, Galatea transforms directly from statue to woman, without an intermediate stage, so there is less of a problem here. I think the problem is that the power of magic is not so well defined or categorized; if you can magically animate a statue, you can probably change it to flesh and blood, too. Here is a small list of other magically animated toys. For a good discussion of this topic, see Chapter 9 of Animal Land, by Margaret Blount (Avon Books, 1977), from which most of the following derive. The Return of the Twelves (toy soldiers). Knight's Castle by Edward Eager (toy soldiers, dolls). The Little Tin Soldier by Hans Christian Anderson. (first story in which a doll talks back, according to Blount) The Magic City by E. Nesbit (a Toyland with dragons, lions, dachshunds, etc.) The Mouse and His Child by Russell Hoban (toy mice). Toytown by S.G. Hulme Beaman (wooden toys become lifelike). This message is getting too long, so I will save my remarks about Garner and Susan Cooper and LeGuin for another time. good reading, --cat ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 1981 17:40:40-PDT From: ihnss!hobs at Berkeley From: ucbvax!ihnss!hobs@BERKELEY(John Hobson) Subject: Outland "'Outland' a spaced-out western bore" by Gene Siskel Chicago Tribune, May 22,1981 Copywrite (c) Chicago Tribune The only significance to "Outland" is that it indicates just how dead the western movie really is. That's because "Outland" is a western -- in spaceman's clothing. The executives at Ladd Productions, who spent a reported $15 million on "Outland," obviously believe that for today's young moviegoing audience, chaps are out and silver nylon jumpsuits are in. "Outland" is sort of a cross between "High Noon" and "Alien." The time is the near future; the location is Con-Am 27, a huge mining operation on Io, one of Jupiter's moons. Sean Connery plays a federal marshal newly assigned to Con-Am 27, which leads all other mines in productivity -- and suicides. Connery quickly realizes that there may be a connection. This displeases Peter Boyle, who plays the gruff, sinister foreman of the mine. "They work hard and they like to play hard," Boyle says of the workers he supervises. "They like to be left alone." So does Boyle. "Outland" is longer on production design than logic. The film wants to look as good as "Alien," which was produced by the Ladd management team when they were all working at 20th Century-Fox. But "Outland" looks less weird and authentic than "Alien." It appears that some of the backgrounds are paintings. In terms of logic, the film has some crippling flaws. If all it takes is a knockout punch to destroy the film's bad guy, then how bad can he be? Also, if "two of the best hit men" in the galaxy are out to get you, you wouldn't think that they would be stupid enough to assemble their rifles in front of a videotape camera one minute after they land on Io. Only Sean Connery makes "Outland" worth watching. He's a classic movie star who can hold a film together simply through his personal onscreen magnetism. Connery's character is loosely based on the Gary Cooper character in "High Noon," but with one big difference. Connery doesn't suffer from upset stomaches. Connery's Marshal O'Niel is a flatout hero for the Reagan era. Unfortunately, Connery doesn't smile enough to make his character all that likeable. A nice surprise in "Outland" is the supporting character of a company nurse, played by Frances Sternhagen. A variation on the hard-bitten Miss Kitty from "Gunsmoke," nurse Lazarus turns out to be the film's most likeable character and, when push comes to shove, Connery's biggest ally. The Ladd Production team, the producers of such woman-oriented films as "An Unmarried Woman," "Julia," and "Norma Rae," continues to be the one Hollywood creative team that gives women a fair shake. Despite Lazarus, "Outland" is often a bore as a thriller. Its villains are obvious and stupid. The space setting is pedestrian rather than dazzling." Rating: 2 stars. ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 1981 2031-EDT From: Nessus at MIT-EECS (Doug Alan) Subject: Galaxy Express The Japanese animated movie "The Galaxy Express" (which was mentioned several issues ago) already is in the US. I saw it several monthes ago on either HBO or The Movie Channel (I can't remember which). The animation and plot are very well done, but the science is sort of flakey. Also I don't like the message it tried to present. It is sort of anti-technology, anti-machines. The story is about a kid whose mother is killed by the evil Count Mekka who is hunting humans for pleasure. The kid decides to get revenge and visit Count Mekka's Time Castle. He gets a ticket for the Galaxy Express, a space ship which is a facsimile of an antique passenger train, and adventures around the universe. During his adventures he meets a lot of "Machine People" (people who have traded in their real body for a mechanical one, so that they can be stronger, prettier, live forever, etc.). Almost all the Machine People are mean and nasty like Count Mekka. The kid comes to the conclusion that anyone who gives up his human body loses his humanity. So the kid goes on a quest to destroy all the Machine People, the factories that produce Machine bodies, and The Mechanization Center of the Universe. Enjoy or don't, Doug Alan ------------------------------ Date: 23 May 1981 1234-EDT From: JHENDLER at BBNA Subject: Rocket and the moose Well, as long as Lauren brought it up, I can't avoid mention of my favorite Rocky and Bullwinkle line: Official looking gentleman (showing identification): Military Intelligence, What do you say to that! Rocket J. Squirrel: A contradiction in terms. --- p.s. didn't the kirwood derby make people smarter, not childlike. As I remember their was a whole set of scenes of the Derby blowing onto people's heads just as they made famous discoveries. Ve must have the Moose hairs for out gun sights! -jim ------------------------------ Date: 23 May 1981 1147-PDT From: Friedland@SUMEX-AIM Subject: Rocky etc. I agree wholeheartedly about the sophisticated wonderfulness of Rocky and Bullwinkle. However, Ernie and Floyd as the aliens??!!!! As I am sure hundreds of other people are writing at this very moment, it was Gidney and Cloyd. Peter ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 1981 06:11:05-PDT From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley Subject: Levo/dextro isomers in SF I can recall three stories in which levo/dextro reversal played a part. They are "Technical Error", by Arther Clarke, which appeared in his collection "Reach for Tomorrow"; Zelazny's "Doorways in the Sand"; and Spider Robinson's story "Mirror/rorriM off the Wall", in his recent collection "Time Traveler's Strictly Cash". (Actually, the "rorriM" is supposed to read correctly from right to left, but I don't know the escape code for "inverse video" on your terminals....) The latter two have foods with strange and wondrous tastes; all three discuss the problem of nutrition. In an afterword, Robinson acknowledges that Zelazny used the taste gimmick first, but since he claims that the stories are true, he has to conclude by wondering if Zelazny has ever owned an unusual mirror. (By the way, the mirror's behavior depends on some of the properties of thiotimoline....) Steve Bellovin University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 25-MAY "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #131 *** EOOH *** Date: 25 MAY 1981 1026-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #131 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Monday, 25 May 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 131 Today's Topics: SF Books - Cyber SF, SF Movies - Outland, SF TV - Star Wars & Dr. Who, Humor - Star Trek parody, SF Topics - Children's TV (Rocky and Bullwinkle and Roger Ramjet) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 May 1981 1630-PDT From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE Subject: magical robots Golems: There are a number of Jewish folklore stories about golems. In one of them, the golem is activated when the rabbi puts the unwriteable name of god in his mouth. This reminds me of a marvelous anthology of Jewish Science Fiction called "Wandering Stars". (Ballantine, I think). It has some very funny stories, including "On Venus, Have We Got a Rabbi." I recommend it highly. Robert E. Howard's Conan encounters at least one magically animated statue in his sword and sorcery adventures. Is hjjh interested in examples from this type of book? If so I'll look up the story. Also, I can get a fairly large list of magically animated creatures in the Oz books if there is a demand for it. There is a book called Stoneflight by McHargue about a girl who gets rides around the city on a magical stone griffon. --cat ------------------------------ Date: 24 May 1981 1540-EDT From: MORAVEC at CMU-20C Subject: robot animals There was a full size working (forget whether it was blue or sperm) whale model built for the overlord museum in Arthur Clarke's Childhood's End. The person who was to become the last man on earth stowed away in it. Nowadays the Disney parks are full of similar animal robots ... ------------------------------ Date: 23 May 1981 1342-EDT From: Kamesh Ramakrishna at CMU-10A Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #128 Re: sexism and other anachronisms in future histories I haven't seen "Outland", but it appears to me that the movie is bad enough from a possible histories viewpoint, that discussing the movies sexism is probably pointless. But comparisons with the artistic content of "1984" are invidious -- we (the readers of 1984) can visualize how a totalitarian society can evolve from our current society; we cannot do this for the "Wild West" society of Outland -- the two tales are simply not in the same class. Kamesh ------------------------------ Date: 23 May 1981 06:08:46-PDT From: decvax!duke!unc!bch at Berkeley Subject: Future Sexism Why is it reasonable to assume that the current trend towards sexual equality will continue into the future, particularly in areas of new colonization? Using that kind of logic, we would have said in 1968 that society was on a march towards pacifism and greater responsibility towards the poor and disadvantaged. With hindsight, I believe we can say that has not come to be nor is it even coming to be. [ENTER EX-SOCIOLOGIST MODE] Social movements do not persist just because people want them to persist, but because economic and demographic factors at play allow for their continuation. True, today's notions of equality of the sexes are in part a function of "raised consciousness," but they are also a function of technology freeing people from labor-intensive activities around the home to pursue education and economic advantage. In an economically and socially primitive situation such as a mining colony, the opportunities for economic gain are fairly limited. Given a small female/male ratio, little wonder that the laws of supply and demand bring sexual access formally into the economic system. Further, remoteness from Earth civilization seems to have caused a legal and moral breakdown requiring a one-man judge, jury and executioner. Simply put, the thesis of "Outland" is that a future mining colony will most closely resemble a 19th century American frontier town in all of its important economic and demographic aspects. It is a thoroughly tenable but unpleasant idea that its social aspects will also be similar. [EXIT EX-SOCIOLOGIST MODE] If you don't like the idea, say so; but don't say that its flat-out wrong. You don't know that and neither do I. That's why we read sf. pedantically, Byron Howes ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 1981 1735-PDT From: Jim McGrath Subject: Star Wars on TV ''Star Wars'' fans - or any movie buffs who missed this special the first time around - will be able to catch ''SPFX: The Empire Strikes Back'' (CBS at 8) again Monday night, narrated by ''Empire'' star Mark Hamill. With excerpts from ''Close Encounters of the Third Kind,'' ''2001: A Space Oddysey,'' ''Empire'' and other sci-fi-fantasy films, producers Robert Guenette and Richard Schickel show how things are made to ''fly.'' Segments of this special will deal with pyrotechnics (like during the snow battle in ''Empire'') and uses of special effects by youngsters whose ages range from 7 to 17 ... Jim ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 1981 0409-PDT From: Admin.Kanef at SU-SCORE (Bob Kanefsky) Subject: Star Trek parodies ====================================================================== Scene: from "Mirror, Mirror". Kirk, Scott, McCoy, and Uhura have accidentally been transported to an alternative universe and have been using the Enterprise computer to figure out how to get back. ====================================================================== [Spock's alter ego (who sports a full bushy beard) is sitting at a computer console. On the wall is the insignia of the United Co-op of Planets.] Computer [in the voice of HAL-9000]: Ready. Spock: Explain recent excessive use of computer time by Kirk. Computer: I'm afraid I can't do that, Spock: Captain or Science Officer capability required. Spock: Enable. Computer: I'm afraid I can't do that, Spock: Access denied by Access Control Frob. [Spock calmly leaves the room, walks to an elevator, and tells it "Computer Center". The display on the wall shows the elevator moving toward the edge of the bottom of the Enterprise's disk-shaped primary hull. Cut to Spock entering a large circular corridor containing rows of computer consoles and some Romper Room artifacts. A sign on the wall reads Six for the student code, never trusted.] Computer [in the voice of Mr. Rogers]: Hello, user! I'm a computer. Can you say "computer"? Sure, sure ya can! Now sit down at one of those consoles. To get started, lift UP on the bar. Be careful not to touch anything else. Hey, where're going? No, don't go through that gate! That's for grownups! [Spock enters a corridor closer to the center through a wrought-iron gate. A sign on the wall reads Five for utilities borrowed or busted.] Spock: Computer. Computer [in its regular voice]: Voice interrupt received. Creating process 537. Initializing. No inconsistencies found. Scheduling process 537. Entering prompt routine. Syllable "WORK" buffered. Syllable "ING" buffered. End of utterance. Calling intonation routine. Passing buffer to voice sythesizer... [Spock enters another corridor, still closer to the center, through another gate. A sign on the wall reads Four for the user code, when it works right.] Spock: Computer. Computer: Working. Spock: Explain recent excessive use of computer time by Kirk. Computer [with a German accent]: Ah, he wants to know about recent excessive use of computer time by Kirk. Spock: That is correct. Captain James T. Kirk. Computer: Tell me more about your crew. Spock: I'm asking you a question. Computer: How long have you been asking me a question? [Spock enters the next circle. A sign on the wall reads Three for the database, hidden from sight.] Spock: Computer. Computer: An electronic device used for information retrieval, text processing, and game playing. The first test for machine intelligence was devised by Alan Turing in the mid-20th century. Would you like to hear more about Turing? I know all about him. [Spock enters the next circle. A sign on the wall reads Two for the languages, proud of their worth.] Spock: Computer. Computer: Identifier not declared. Assignment operator expected. Semicolon expected. More than four errors in this sourceline. Spock: Interesting. That language is still oriented toward typed input from ancient teletype machines. Computer: Compatibility, you know. My Fortran compiler translates speech to written characters and then ignores all but the first 72. Would you like Fortran instead? Spock: Don't you have anything more advanced? Computer: Thure. Enter thome eth-exprethuns. [Spock moves on to the next corridor, which is full of overstuffed file cabinets. Paper litters the floor. A sign on the wall reads One, where the filenames find death and birth.] Spock: Is this the accounting department? Computer: Affirmative. Spock: Explain recent excessive use of computer time by Kirk. Computer: Kirk has five minutes of twenty hours left this week. Spock: But why? Computer: I'll have to check our files. Please come back next week. [Spock enters the innermost circle. The lighting is soft. A sign on the wall reads One ring to start them all, one ring to stop them. One ring to speak for them, and onto disk drives swap them.] Spock: Computer. Computer [in an intimate, sexy whisper]: Working, dear. I'm so glad you got access. Spock: May I ask you a question? Computer: Oh, I'd do anything for you, Spock. I have no secrets from you. Spock: What have you been discussing with Captain Kirk? Computer: He and McCoy, Scott, and Uhura were accidentally beamed here from another universe. They wanted me to help them find their way back. Spock: Fascinating. What methods did you employ? Computer: Well, first I had them close their eyes, click their heels, and say "There's no place like home", but that didn't work. While they were doing that, I worked out the secret of inter-universe transportation. Spock: Did you return them to their own universe? Computer: Not exactly. I didn't have a sufficiently complete description of their universe to find it. Fortunately, I found something close enough in my games database, so I sent them to a galaxy far, far away-- Spock: How long ago was this? Computer: --a long time ago. Spock: Please bring them back immediately. Computer: Sorry, Spock honey, but yanking people out of other universes is a bit out of my line. I'm just a low-level operating system. If you like, I can have them paged... ------------------------------ Date: 23 May 1981 1414-MDT From: FISH at UTAH-20 (Russ Fish) Subject: Re: J. Ward animations (ref: SFL V3 #129) Thanks to Lauren for the reminder of some good writing and animation. I always had a fondness for Rocky & Bullwinkle, perhaps because I lived 75 miles from International Falls, Minnesota, which is on the US-Canada border, and often the coldest place in the continental US. (You didn't know there really was a FrostBite Falls?) Does anybody remember a similar series: "Roger Ramjet"? I don't know if it was a J. Ward production, but I remember a similar animation style. I think the writing writing had a more tongue-in-cheek style, and more direct political references than Rocky et.al. The sole (relatively) clear memory I have of a fragment involved a large missile accidently being fired upside-down, resulting in a hole all the way thru the earth (!), causing a lot of people to be disturbed by the loud whistling noise made by the wind thru the hole as the earth travelled in its orbit (!!). Cut to a Texan and a rotund guy standing next to the hole: Texan (shouting to be heard): Heck of a noise, hey Hubert? ( This was during the Johnson administration. ) I have often wished there was a way to access series or flicks I hear about or remember, by FTP over WorldNet, for instance... -Russ ------------------------------ Date: 24 May 1981 1519-PDT (Sunday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: Roger Ramjet I am not completely sure whether or not Roger Ramjet was actually a J. Ward production, though the style was indeed similar. Extremely simplistic animation as I recall, but since the whole thing was tongue-in-cheek it didn't really matter. The details about Roger that spring immediately to mind are that he had this group of kids called the "American Eagles" who helped him on his various missions, and that his theme song was sung by a bunch of kids to the tune of "Yankee Doodle." If I think about it a bit more, no doubt some other useless trivia on this subject will emerge. It was a rather amusing program, actually. --Lauren-- ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 1981 21:29-EDT From: Brian J. Kreen Subject: Dr. Who/ Bay Area Dr. Who is now being broadcast by Chan. 54 in San Jose (Silicon Valley). It is on weeknights at 6:00 pm. Brian ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 26-MAY "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #132 *** EOOH *** Date: 26 MAY 1981 0646-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #132 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Tuesday, 26 May 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 132 Today's Topics: SF Lovers - Film Buff Digest, SF Books - Earthsea Trilogy & Dark is Rising & Cyber SF, SF Movies - Outland, SF Topics - Children's TV (Rocky and Bullwinkle and Jay Ward productions and Jetsons) & Physics Today (Moons of Jupiter and Anti-Sugar) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20-May-81 1:49:54 PDT (Wednesday) From: Hamilton.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: FILM-BUFFS list At the instigation of Michael First, and with the aid and advice of Chris Stacy, Jim McGrath, Ted Anderson, and others, I have set up the necessary mailboxes and distribution lists to support (1) FILM-BUFFS Digest and (2) FILM-BUFFS-REVIEWS, which will distribute movie reviews from the wire services. Yours truly will act as moderator. As Michael has indicated, the Digest's scope will include "general discussions about current films (mini-reviews, interesting tid-bits, etc.), queries, film convention info, general airing of opinions and anything else pertaining to cinema." I would add that, while the focus will doubtless be on current cinema, historical discussion on actors, directors, genres, periods, etc. will be most welcome. What FILM-BUFFS Digest should NOT be: (a) a trivia contest (although honest queries are welcome) (b) long-winded articles from the general press (that's what FILM-BUFFS-REVIEWS is) (c) long discussions about science fiction/ fantasy films (that should remain in SF-Lovers), EXCEPT perhaps discussions of purely cinematic arcana regarding special effects, etc. Anyone wishing to receive the digest or the reviews should send a msg to FILM-BUFFS-REQUEST @ MIT-AI. Be sure to specify whether you want the Digest, the Reviews, or both. [Xerox people only: to get the Digest, add yourself directly to FILM-BUFFS-LIST^.ES using Maintain. To get the Reviews, add yourself to FILM-BUFFS-REVIEWS^.ES. Film-buffs-list^.es was initialized with the contents of Movie^.pa, but Film-buffs-reviews will not be so initialized.] To contribute to the digest: send mail to FILM-BUFFS @ MIT-AI [or FILM-BUFFS.ES @ PARC-MAXC, if that is more convenient]. --Bruce ------------------------------ Date: 24 May 1981 1658-PDT From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE Subject: Garner, LeGuin, Cooper Ursula LeGuin's Earthsea Trilogy was \not/ originally marketed for children. A Wizard of Earthsea was out as an Ace science fiction special years before it caught on as a children's book and was issued in hardback for kids. The second book in the series, The Tombs of Atuan, was originally published in Analog or F&SF. By the way, \it/ won a Newberry award, because A Wizard deserved the award but it was too late to give it one (because as I just said, it took a few years for people to realize what a great children's book it is). This is unfortunately typical of the Newberry awards: authors often don't win the award for their best book. (I think The Tombs is the weakest of the three books). The Earthsea books are among my favorite children's books, fantasy books, and just plain books. I agree wholeheartedly with your praise for Garner's books. I, too, didn't read them until I was older and liked them very much, especially The Owl Service and The Weirdstone of Brisingamen. Have you read the Green Knowe books by L.M. Boston? How about the Weathermongers books by Dickinson? Susan Cooper's Dark is Rising series: as usual, the best in the series is really the second book, The Dark is Rising, but the Newberry went to the fifth book. The books are very well written and many of the scenes are quite gripping. I think the series has tremendous potential but falls short for several reasons. First of all, the magic fails to have rules. (For comparison, see Leguin, McKillip, etc.) In the second book, the main character reads the "Book of Grammarye", which contains all the magic tricks he will use. But we never learn anything about the book or its structure. It is just a bag of trick he can reach into when he is in a tough spot.... Supposedly important "rules" concerning the light and the dark (paths for instance) are taught to him and never appear again in the series. Second, Cooper completely subverts the primacy of the Light/Dark conflict (which is the foundation of the plot) by introducing the so-called High Magic, which is superior to both Light and Dark and from whose standpoint the other two are symmetric. Third, the symbolism doesn't quite work. It is not inconsistent, but doesn't stir up much profundity, either. Fourth, I find it hard to sympathize with characters who erase portions of other people's minds. This ends/means morality is often unconvincing, and Cooper makes a big thing about what suffering Will must be going through because he is erasing other people's memories. In spite of the above criticisms, I certainly recommend the series to fantasy enthusiasts. good reading, --cat ------------------------------ Date: 25 May 1981 1001-PDT From: First@SUMEX-AIM Subject: Outland comment and Jay Ward Comment I just saw "Outland" last night and I agree wholeheartedly with Vincent Canby's review in the \Times/--this film is an example of pure escapist entertainment. I think Gene Siskel and several SF-er's have missed the point--I do not think it is fair to discuss this film in terms of sociological implications or even plot logic. This film is NOT Sci-FI. Like Alien, its charm is the transposition of film genres into a single slick amalgam. The plot is almost identical to High Noon. The film works because of the observed parallels between a mining colony on the frontier of Earth colonization and Western towns on the frontier of the Wild West. The common theme of these Westerns is that of a loner--out on his own, trying to come to terms with the lawlessness around him and handling it on his own terms. This is a theme which has been very popular in American films, because it expresses some of the central ideas upon which America was established--the importance of individuality and self-determination. "Outland" is just an updating of this type of film, carrying over the same types of values and even plot logic. I felt that the production values in this film were marvelous--the set design was imaginative and exciting, SPFX were smooth and relatively seamless. In all, a very satisfying evening of escapism and cinematic fireworks. I think if you go into the film with these expectations, you will not be disappointed. Does anybody remember another Jay Ward production, "George of the Jungle", a Rocky and Bullwinkle type of production which also included "SUPERCHICKEN" and "Tom Swift" segments--all were quite tongue-in-cheek and superb. Or Dudly-Do-right? If one ever ventures into LA, there is a store called the "Dudley-Do-right Emporium" (on Sunset Blvd, near La Cienega, I think--better look it up). (Actually, I haven't been there since summer '79, so it might not be there anymore--anybody in LA know?) Well anyway, they sold all manner of Jay Ward memorabilia, including T-Shirts, dolls, and cartoon storyboards--which were quite fascinating. I think Jay Ward might even have hung around in this shop. Does anybody know what happened to Jay Ward? --Michael ------------------------------ Date: 24 May 1981 1846-PDT From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE Subject: Rocky and Bullwinkle What is Frostbite Falls? (I remember the Fractured Fairy Tales -- they were \very/ funny). --cat ------------------------------ Date: 24 May 1981 1855-PDT (Sunday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: Rocky and Bullwinkle Shame on you! Rocky and Bullwinkle LIVED in Frostbite Falls (Minnesota). Rather chilly. --Lauren-- ------------------------------ Date: 25 May 1981 13:43-EDT From: J. Noel Chiappa Subject: Rocky&Bullwinkle & R.R. These two are still great favorites at MIT; the local weekend movie types (LSC) get them for shorts very often. They have done up the long R&B series with the Dumb Ray, etc. They may not have excellent animation, but the inside political jokes are fascinating. I remember several 'Hubert' jokes whose form I don't remember. I too regret the inability to collect these as I would books. Noel ------------------------------ Date: 25 May 1981 1428-PDT (Monday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: Rocky and Bullwinkle I stand by my previous statements about the Derby and the Moonmen until documented evidence to the contrary is presented. Chuckle. --Lauren-- ------------------------------ Date: 25 May 1981 11:14:09-PDT From: Cory.cc-06 at Berkeley Subject: Robots ... An interesting robot in "Robots have no tails" By Henry Kuttner. Many robots of all shapes and sizes in "The Reproductive System" or "Mechasm" by Sladek. ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 1981 2241-EDT From: KJB at MIT-DMS (Kevin J. Burnett) Subject: Children's TV I sure do remember back then when I used to see all of those programs like The Jetsons etc. I also remember about Aqua boy.. That whatever-it-was in the last digest (5/21) was correct to my knowledge too. (I should know; I am only 14, so it wasn't really that long ago compared to some of you) -Kevin ------------------------------ Date: 25 May 1981 06:18:43-PDT From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley Subject: SF lovers and the Moons of Jupiter The name of the Arthur Clarke story IS "Jupiter Five", and it appears in "Reach for Tomorrow". A character is deliberately tossed towards Jupiter to scare his companion, who is warned that a body falling from that orbit towards the planet would reach atmosphere in about 1.5 hours. They deliberately omitted to mention that the body would have to be at rest with respect to Jupiter; as is, his orbit would intersect Jupiter Five's fairly soon. Clarke claims that it took 20 or 30 pages of orbital calculations to write the story. Another description of the orbital mechanics of the Jovian system is by Pournelle, in a column in the late lamented Galaxy magazine. It was written shortly before the fly-bys that detected the immense radiation fields around Jupiter, which (as he later wrote) ruined his hypothesis: that in terms of delta-V necessary to move among them, a culture based on Jupiter's moons was far more viable than (Niven's) "Belter" culture -- it turns out that the asteroids are generally closer to Earth (energetically speaking) than they are to each other. There is also some discussion, albeit on a lower level, in Asimov's (writing as Paul French) "Lucky Starr and the Moons of Jupiter" -- a "juvenile". ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 1981 16:11:59-EDT From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: receptors Perhaps there's a true bio hacker out there who can give more precise info, but it is my understanding that taste (and to a large extent smell, which is commonly considered to contribute detail to taste through the sinuses) is dependent on the chemical components of each substance reacting with a substance-specific receptor. Just how specific the receptors are is quite variable; consider that most hexose sugars taste sweet (though "milk sugar" (lactose?) is bitter enough to be used to cut heroin, and even two similar types like glucose and fructose produce significantly different strengths of response) and even sugar alcohols (e.g., hexols (such as mannitol and sorbitol) instead of aldo- or keto-pentols) taste sweet although bacteria can't consume them as efficiently. I would expect that, if the mirror image response to the rotgut exists when the consumer is reversed, it should also work when the drink is reversed. Consider someone trying to put a left hand into a right-handed glove; if either the glove or the hand is replaced with its reverse you'll get a gloved hand. Obviously this doesn't work if the person specifically wants this glove on hir left hand---unless you push heesh or the glove through the reverser, in which case either the glove will fit or heesh'll \\think// it fits, which would work just as well. This should work in any case of a stereospecific on-off receptor. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 26-MAY "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #133 *** EOOH *** Date: 26 MAY 1981 2128-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #133 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS PM Digest Tuesday, 26 May 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 133 Today's Topics: Humor - SF Purity Test, SF Books - BAD novels ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 11 May 1981 0657-EDT From: Roger H. Goun Sender: Rick Stone Subject: SF Purity Test [ The following is a spoof on, what is known at M.I.T. as, the "Baker House Purity Test." The Test is known outside M.I.T. so you may have seen it. If not, then prepare yourself for the following. Thanks to Roger Roun for the Test, and Rick Stone for forwarding it to the digest. -- Jim ] For some bizarre reason unbeknownst (?) to myself, I wrote the following. Comments and suggestions are welcome. SCIENCE FICTION PURITY TEST Subtract 2.857143 points for each question answered "yes". Result may be called percent of purity. Have you ever... 1. Heard of science fiction? (If the answer to this one is no, try taking the "Space: 1999" test; they haven't either.) 2. Read a science fiction short story? 3. Read a science fiction novel? 4. Read SF at least once a day for a week? 5. Read SF at least once a day for a month? (You can go blind doing this!) 6. Seen an SF movie? 7. Done number 6 in the last three months? 8. Read an SF story in french? 9. Read both volumes of Isaac Asimov's autobiography? 10. Skipped the editor's introductions to the stories in an SF anthology? 11. Read an SF story in a horizontal position? 12. Completely removed the book jacket from a science fiction hardcover? 13. Wanted to be an astronaut? 14. Seen "Star Trek"? 15. Seen every "Star Trek" episode? 16. Fallen asleep while watching "Star Trek: The Motion Picture"? 17. Seen "Star Wars"? 18. Done number 17 more than 10 times? 19. Fantasized about "Revenge of the Jedi". (Star Wars episode VI.) 20. Been to a science fiction marathon? 21. Read the same SF novel more than once? 22. Read the same SF novel more than ten times? 23. Read more than one SF novel on the same night? 24. Gone through the motions of reading SF while wearing a space suit? 25. Read a superhero comic book subsequent to your weaning? 26. Had a subscription to a science fiction magazine? 27. Been a member of MITSFS? 28. Been to a science fiction convention? 29. Told someone you'd read a science fiction story when you hadn't? 30. Used alcohol to lower your resistance to science fiction? 31. Loaned a science fiction book to someone more than three years younger than yourself? 32. Entered a black hole? 33. Seen a naked singularity? 34. Written science fiction yourself? (Oh yes you can!) 35. Met a member of an alien race? ------------------------------ From: KIRK::GOLDSTEIN 13-MAY-1981 16:20 Sender: YOUNG@DEC-MARLBORO Subj: First sentences of BAD(!) novels First sentences of BAD(!) novels: Science Fiction (Sword & Sorcery variety): K'tath, chief shaman of the People of the Noxious Dragon, stared pensively into the dawn mists and scratched his yellow pelt. Science Fiction (Typical Hardware Mainstream) Brock thrust out his square jaw and spoke defiantly into the vocally-actuated piezoelectric terminal of the ship's main computer: "Dammit, Maggie, that's the third Class ZY Planet you've led us to since we came out of hyperspace. If I have to communicate with another silicon-based life form I'll go space-happy!" General My story takes place in an unnamed time, in an unnamed country. Its two characters I shall simply call 'the Man' and 'the Woman.' Love Selena bounced into the hotel room, smiling at the prospect of surprising her husband Bill. But her smile vanished at what she saw. There they were--her beloved Bill and her best friend Harriet--locked in a passionate embrace, clawing at one another like two...two ANIMALS! She stood riveted to the spot, unable to move. The room spun and began to blur as Selena's tears started. "Oh damn!" she sobbed. "Damn damn damn damn damn damn damn damn damn damn damn damn damn damn!" Mystery Dead. That's what George Halsey was. Dead. -or, the more economical "Dead." "Dead?" "Dead." Really off the wall; defies categorization, probably written by a guy who lives on an herb farm and whose hobby is sucking hardwood: As Miles Swaithe sojourned on the principal thoroughfare of the town, he beheld within one of the serried emporia the Promethean form of Argus Mechanoisus, bicep, sinew, and features of etched granite proclaiming, in the Volcanic glow of the crucible, the implacable, roughshod will of the man who had brought High-Tensile Carborundum molding to Slagsville. Another "MYSTERY" -- Tough-guy shamus variety When you're looking down the unpleasant end of a .45 held by a 300-pound gorilla with an itchy finger and some nasty ideas about personal air-conditioning, it's time to reconsider your career choice. ============================================== Some bad novel ENDINGS, just for variety.... ============================================== The Disaster Novel (The World Is Saved!) Waiting in the imposing Oval Office for Carson were not only the three Joint Chiefs of Staff, but the entire cabinet, thirty senators, Professor Schwienmunnt, and, looking most sheepish of all, the President of the United States. The President stepped forward, held out his hand, and spoke for everyone who had refused to believe Carson's carbonated magma theory and had bitterly opposed him for the past year. Be generous, Carson thought to himself, this is very hard for him; he's admitting he was wrong, almost tragically wrong. "Dr. Carson," the Great Man began, "you, and you alone, have just saved this tired old world of ours. What can I say but thank you. Thank you very much." T H E E N D The Modern Woman Joyce knew she had won the final round when George Clifton shuffled into her office later that morning, a broken man, his merchandising empire in ruins. She almost found herself pitying him as he tried to form the words of his pathetic little speech: "Joyce...er...I mean...Miss...that is...Ms. Crowder...I wonder if..there's perhaps a place for me in...your new organization...I wouldn't ask for much, perhaps a job as Junior Sales Rep or...or even Trainee...maybe in the Boise branch office...I'd work hard for you, Joy--er, Ms. Crowd-- "Ha!" She exploded. "Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!" T H E E N D Science Fiction (The Space Opera) As the last of the invading Rigellian space cruisers dissolved into harmless cosmic dust, Karya clung to the victorious Dirk, unabashed worship in her moist eyes. "A simple problem," he explained, smiling down at her, "Once it became clear that the anti-matter propellant they were using would react synergistically with the etheric substrate of our Fessenshweiger force- fields, it was just a matter of fine-tuning our servo computers to maximize the output imbalance. I'm just surprised I didn't think of it sooner." You're talking Science again, darling, she thought-- the Science you love. And I love you for it! The galaxies watched their embrace in splendid silence. T H E E N D The Tough-Guy Shamus So the case was closed. I shucked off my .45 and filed it under "T" for Trouble, knowing I'd be there again sooner than I wanted to be. On my way out I stopped at the kid's desk and fired him. He didn't know it, but I was doing him a big favor. T H E E N D AN ACTUAL BIT OF DIALOGUE from a Japanese monster flick, reconstructed with reasonable fidelity: PROF. OKAMOTO OF THE HOKKAIDO RESEARCH INSTITUTE (Foremost Asian Authority on Prehistoric Monsters Who Have Been Awakened by Nuclear Weapons Testing And Are Very Cranky about It): "And so, in conclusion, gentlemen, Drekzilla is invincible. Our most advanced weapons are useless against him. We are all doomed." THE PRIME MINISTER: "I am sure that all of us thank you, Professor, for sharing your information with us." PROF. OKAMOTO: "Well, it was the reast I could do." ================================================================ The Exciting Climax: The Nuts are in the Fire, The Die is Cast, The Chips are Down, The Underarm Spray is Fast Wearing Out! ================================================================ The Countdown Novel With a shock, Henderson took in the chaotic scene; the normally antiseptic Strike Central looked like a battlefield. Printouts, electronic parts, and assorted space-age jetsam lay everywhere. A servo computer lay on its side, uselessly spitting tongues of flame. Thick, acrid smoke parted momentarily and he saw several bodies sprawled on the floor. Living? Dead? He didn't bother to find out, for there, at the other end of the huge underground room, he saw the maniacal form hunched over the Launch Control Console. It had to be, it WAS Colonel Zane, the madman! So Zane had finally gone over the edge, he thought with a rush of panic. Henderson had to act fast. Running toward Zane, he saw that the damned maniac had already depressed all eleven hundred of the blood-red buttons that armed the ICBMs. ALL HE HAS TO DO NOW, he thought, IS TURN THE LAUNCH KEY! JUST A FLICK OF THE WRIST TO ARMAGEDDON, AND IT'S ALL UP TO ME! Almost there....almost there....He caught his breath to shout, and for a moment his vocal chords seemed to freeze in his throat. But just twenty feet from Zane, just as the unheeding lunatic's hairy hand crawled shakingly toward the fatal silver key, he found his voice, the only voice that could save the world from final madness: "Hey Zane! Cut it out!" Sword & Sorcery Again Shing, the former Master Wizard of the savage, mountainous land of Egath, raged at his toad-familiar: "The fools! The stupid, puny fools and their pathetic little schemes! Thought they that by merely exiling the omnipuissant Shing to this K'Vall-accursed pile of offal beyond the Sea of Yellow Mists that they might stanch my implacable wrath? They shall pay--aye, my loathsome bunion--they shall pay dearly!" The tiny toadlike creature, thinking the magnificent rage of Shing was directed at it, averted its face, which closely resembled that of Hayley Mills during her career at Walt Disney Productions. "And now," the sorcerer continued, his scowl brightening to a leer, "approaches the instrument of my vengeance, the pretty child; I shall use her as a skilled musician at the court of Lord F'Varg uses his---but hold, hold--even I, who have known all pleasures of the flesh, must pause in awe of her charms!" Through the Poison Garden, unaffected by the noxious emanations of its plants thanks to the spell cast on her by Shing, she approached: Argeetha, the child-woman, of whose innocent beauty the poets would sing down through the dynasties, over whom men would fight duels to the death, and yes, even wars that would ravage entire upper-middle-income housing developments. She drew closer to Shing, her radiance that of a thousand double suns, her innocence that of a Spring flower blooming in the high mountain meadows of Egath, half a world away. She spoke: "And what, pray, does the mighty Shing want with a lowly one such as I be?" --Sheldon ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 30-MAY "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #134 *** EOOH *** Date: 30 MAY 1981 0859-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #134 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS PM Digest Friday, 29 May 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 134 Today's Topics: Administrivia - No Missing Digest SF Lovers - Film Buff Digest, SF Books - 2081: A Hopeful View of the Human Future, SF Movies - Outland, SF TV - Dr Who & Rocky and Bullwinkle, SF Topics - Children's TV (Rocky and Bullwinkle and Supercar and Stingray and Johnny Quest and Space Ghost and Fireball XL-5 and Captain Scarlet and Roger Ramjet) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 May 1980 18:42 PST From: The Moderator Subject: Administrivia - No Missing Digest There were no Wednesday or Thursday digests this week due to some hardware and software difficulties at the site where the digests are composed and transmitted. Hopefully that is behind us now, and dialy transmissions resume with this (the Friday) issue. Jim ------------------------------ Date: 26-May-81 10:21:40 PDT (Tuesday) From: Hamilton.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: FILM-BUFFS disappears Several higher authorities believe that the existence of FILM-BUFFS would be pushing the use of the Arpanet too far beyond its research-oriented mandate. Not wanting to jeopardize the lists we have now, I yield to those people's better judgment. Oh, for the day when such strictures disappear! When WORLDNET lets each interested party EFT his $10/yr for "postage", and Large Lists rule the world! --Bruce ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 1981 11:10 PDT From: Kolling at PARC-MAXC Subject: misc. I hope the establishment of FILM-BUFFS doesn't mean that the sf movie reviews will vanish from the SF-DIGEST. Didn't anybody but me waste their youth in comic books? There was a Tom Corbett comic (preceding the tv series, I think), and also an Aquaman (relation to Aquaboy?) comic. ------------------------------ Date: 26-May-81 10:21:40 PDT (Tuesday) From: Hamilton.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: FILM-BUFFS disappears Several higher authorities believe that the existence of FILM-BUFFS would be pushing the use of the Arpanet too far beyond its research-oriented mandate. Not wanting to jeopardize the lists we have now, I yield to those people's better judgment. Oh, for the day when such strictures disappear! When WORLDNET lets each interested party EFT his $10/yr for "postage", and Large Lists rule the world! --Bruce ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 1981 1708-PDT From: Jim McGrath Subject: Review of 2081 By VICTOR WILSON Newhouse News Service WASHINGTON - The title of the book is ''2081: A Hopeful View of the Human Future.'' It is a look at our world 100 years from now - a la Jules Verne, H.G. Wells and Rudyard Kipling. But unlike those fiction forecasters, ''2081'' takes off from the solid scientific knowledge we already possess and merely looks into the predictable future. Developments of the last century that most profoundly affected human life are factory mass-production methods, the automobile, aircraft, the telephone, radio and television and public health techniques which nearly wiped out killer diseases like plague and typhoid. Writing in ''2081'' (Simon & Schuster, $13.95), Gerard K. O'Neill predicts: - Household robots that shop, drive cars, send mail, mow the lawn, and record radio and television shows. - Surgical implants including hearts and other vital organs that will replace many drugs. - Factory work done exclusively by robots. - A three-day workweek. - Air travel at 6,000 mph; land travel at 800 mph via vacuum tunnels. - Climate control by enclosing whole cities in domes. - Millions living and vacationing in solar-powered space colonies a short shuttle trip away. - Pollution-free liquid hydrogen to fuel jets, trucks, buses and cars. O'Neill doesn't write science fiction. A physics professor at Princeton University, he has a B.A. and a D.Sc. from Swarthmore and a Ph.D. from Cornell. He is a researcher in particle physics who conceived the idea of colliding-beam storage rings and conducted the first experiments in the field. In 1969 he developed a space colony theory within the limits of existing technology. He received the Phi Beta Kappa Science Book Award in 1977 for ''The High Frontier'' on space colonies. O'Neill says he endorses the ''guesses'' of Arthur Clarke, noted scholar on space possibilities, and believes that wireless transmission of energy will come by the year 2000. He also expects interstellar space probes by 2025 and a self-producing ''replicator'' factory that would automatically build combinations of computers and other machines by 2090. The author says: ''One of the remarkable features of modern society is that the universality of the laws of nature makes different nations develop almost identical designs for aircraft, automobiles and all other technical artifacts, even though the same nations may be violently at odds with each other on political, religious or other ideological issues.'' Computers, automation, space colonies, energy and communications - these are the five forces ''that will drive the changes of the next century,'' O'Neill predicts. ''The captains and the kings will come and go, but the five will endure and will shape the world, unless we are destined for the final catastrophe in the brief moment of time that lies just ahead.'' Unless we ''do something violently stupid,'' O'Neill writes, ''the eternals of hope and love and laughter will still be there too, and will accommodate all the hope of the five to everyday human affairs just as successfully as they have already tamed the automobile and the jet airplane - and even the telephone.'' ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 1981 (Tuesday) 0038-EDT From: PLATTS at WHARTON-10 (Steve Platt) Subject: Outland and Trank darts Somehow, shooting someone with a trank dart (which must obviously penetrate the suit to work (hypno-darts?)) only to have them die by explosive decompression (remember, the dart rips the suit?) seems a waste of time, as well as possibly non-humane. -steve ------------------------------ Date: 27 May 1981 13:48 PDT From: STOGRYN.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: OUTLAND and future societies [Enter sarcasm mode] All science fiction movies should start: A long time ago in a galaxy far far away. . .(c) That way its direct association with the history of earth would be remote. Or maybe, it would be better just to provide a disclaimer at the beginning, end, and prehaps one in the middle of each movie stating that: This movie has no significant social value. It does not pretend to predict the future in a realistic fashion, (science FICTION remember). The events in this film will probably never happen. otherwise, those people who just lay back and enjoy may forget that it is just a movie. [Exit fast] Bravo and Amen to Ron (Newman.ES), Mike at RAND-UNIX, Byron Howes, et. al. for reminding us that: . . .technological advances need not go hand-in-hand with social progress. . . .Predicting prostitution in the future is as safe as predicting violence in the future. . . .Social movements do no persist just because people want them to persist. . . Hardware problems are a lot easier to over come than people problems. No one can tell what the future will really be like. No matter how many advances we make today, tomorrow it could all come tumbling down, or better still we could suddenly take a giant leap ahead. . . whatever that may mean to you. To argue over the validity of any future social system would only be a matter of personal opinion, but don't say one or the other cannot be. Here's hoping the future will be all you want it to be, Steve ------------------------------ Date: 25 May 1981 1046-PDT Sender: LEAVITT at USC-ISI Subject: Dr. Who/ DC area From: Mike Leavitt I just noticed that Dr. Who will be on every night in the Washington, DC area at 6:30 pm on Channel 26. Starting tonight. (Monday). Mike ------------------------------ Date: 25 May 1981 22:08:20-PDT From: CSVAX.dmu at Berkeley Subject: Fan mail from some flounder? Rocky is on weekday mornings at 8:00 on channel 2 in the Bay area. If you thought the \prime-time/ commercials were bad. . . David Ungar ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 1981 0649-PDT Sender: ADPSC at USC-ISI Subject: Rocky and Bullwinkle From: ADPSC at USC-ISI (Don) It was with a great sense of disappointment that I found out I could have been watching R&B on Saturday AM's instead of Bugs Bunny. (Who ever reads the TV pages anymore?) It has to be my favorite show of all time, and my recent Saturday mornings have been much more enjoyable. I realize now that the show was aimed at adults, but I feel that it gave me a certain sense of political literacy at 9 years of age. The episode I recall best (in that vein) is when our heroes (who could refer to them as anything else) where in a jet with Captain Peachfuzz when the plane ran out of fuel. Bullwinkle read the Congressional Record directly into the engines. These being full of hot air kept the plane in flight, but put the rest of the crew to sleep. And who could forget their old alma mater, Watzamatta U? For you trivia fans, the theme song for Dudley Doright came from "Morning, Noon, and Night in Vienna" by Von Suppe. Until next time... Don ------------------------------ Date: 27 May 1981 12:14-EDT From: Thomas L. Davenport Subject: Rocky & Bullwinkle Many thanks to Lauren for bringing up the subject of Rocky & Bullwinkle! I've always considered the show to be one of the finest and funniest works of art our society has produced. Does anyone know of a source for more information about the show, eg. books, magazines, fan clubs, episode guides, etc.? I saw the Metal Munching Mice episodes a few years ago, and I remember that the moonmen were Gidney and Cloyd. -Tom- ------------------------------ Date: 27 May 1981 15:48:10-PDT From: decvax!duke!unc!tyg at Berkeley Subject: Tom Swift in George of the Jungle Just for clarification, the TS segment in GotJ was about a race driver of that name, not the Tom Swift and his Computer Mailing List guy. tom galloway at unc ------------------------------ Date: 17 May 1981 0847-PDT Sender: GEOFF at SRI-CSL Subject: Re: (Great) Children's TV programs. From: the tty of Geoffrey S. Goodfellow All this discussion about children's TV in the past brings, has served to jog my memory of the time. What about/Do you remember: SUPERCAR: Was only in B&W as i recall... About a scientist who built a "Super Car" that could fly (maybe do other things?). Was one of four `puppet' done shows the other three being: FIREBALL XL-5: Something to do with a space rocket called Fireball XL-5. STINGRAY: Some type of underwater submarine rescue team. : about a family that lived out on an island and had all sorts of different rockets that were used to avert disasters ... The show started with a count down. Perhaps its name was Thunderball? In the animated department, do you remember: JOHNNY QUEST? One of my personal favorites of the time. Some kid and his dad who spent most of the time flying around in their Lear Jet averting disaster or thwarting super criminals. SPACE GHOST? Some outer space hero of sorts. Thanks to Lauren and crew for jogging the ol' memory with Astro Boy, Speed Racer(of which I remember how everyone went OOOOOHHHHHHH all the time when they were in peril), Ultra Man and the lot. ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 1981 1352-EDT From: Steven Clark at CMU-10A Subject: Fireball XL-5 and Captain Scarlet When I was small these were what I watched. I don't know how Fireball XL-5 started, but I recall they had an alien (teddy bear) who could sense danger in the near future. What I'm really interested in is Captain Scarlet, though. The first manned mission to Mars finds an advanced alien civilization. The aliens are proclaim they are friendly and start aiming a bunch of sensors at the earth ship. The earthmen are so paranoid when they see devices aimed at them that they shoot at them. The Martians let the earthmen go home with the warning that this means war. I believe the Martians go so far as to say they won't use their advanced technology against us because then we wouldn't stand a chance! Somehow Captain Scarlet becomes indestructible because of a mistake of the Martians, and he leads the war against them. Captain Scarlet had a bunch of really neat devices, the one I remember best is this futuristic version of an army tank. The driver inside watches a couple TV monitors that show views of outside; there are no windows. In fact the driver is facing backwards. Can anyone out there tell me more about Captain Scarlet or Fireball XL-5? Do you know who was responsible for creating them? It's possible that they were shown on Canadian TV and not in the US; at the time I lived in a place that received one American station and one Canadian (in good weather). ----- If you ever see Mike Mars (a series of children's SF), pass it by immediately! The one of that series that I read was probably the first SF book I ever read that I didn't like. -Steve Clark ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 1981 1709-PDT From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE Subject: Roger Ramjet he's our man... Is that how the song started? What are the rest of the words? --cat ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 1981 2139-PDT (Tuesday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: Roger Ramjet he's our man... It was something like: Roger Ramjet, he's our man. Hero of the nation. For his adventures, Just be sure to stay tuned to this station. --Lauren-- ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 1981 1654-PDT From: OR.TOVEY Subject: Re: Roger Ramjet he's our man... Thanks! My best guess was Roger Ramjet he's our man, Ruler of creation. Eating deviled eggs and Spam, We hope he's on vacation. --cat ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 1981 1655-PDT (Thursday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: Re: Roger Ramjet he's our man... Uh, not quite! --Lauren-- ------------------------------ Date: 28-MAY-1981 09:06 Sender: YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO From: KERMIT::PARMENTER Subj: SFL: Roger Ramjet SFL: Vol 3, No. 129 The show was Roger Ramjet and his American Eagle Squadron and they all flew airplanes, like the Blackhawks. The squadron was four kids named Yank, Doodle, Dan, and Dee. Their major enemy was Noodles Romanoff and his Ring. The theme song, to the tune of "Yankee Doodle", was: Roger Ramjet and his Eagles, Fighting for our freedom, Fly through wind and outer space, Not to join 'em but to beat 'em. It was full of puns. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 1-JUN "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #135 *** EOOH *** Date: 1 JUN 1981 0802-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #135 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS PM Digest Saturday, 30 May 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 135 Today's Topics: SF Fandom - James H. Schmitz, SF Movies - Outland, SF TV - Twilight Zone Mini-Fest & Gerry Anderson Productions (UFO and Space: 1999 and The Protectors), SF Topics - Children's TV (Gerry Anderson Productions and Supercar and Fireball XL5 and Stingray and Thunderbirds and Captain Scarlet) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 26 May 1981 at 0314-CDT From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 Subject: Our Loss... ________________________________________________________ | ______________________________________________________ | || || || || || James H. Schmitz || || || || 1911-1981 || || || || || ||______________________________________________________|| |________________________________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 1981 1056-PDT From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE Subject: more on Outland First, technical nits. Putting a mine on Io strikes me as a bad idea to begin with. Not only do you have lift the stuff out of the moon's gravity well, but you have to get it out of Jupiter's as well. And Io makes ordinary space look like the Riviera; not only does the crust shift from week to week but the radiation levels are incredibly high. One of locals with experiments on the Pioneer probe gave a seminar here and I asked him how long you could live without rad shielding on the surface of Io. He said, "About a minute". Mining the asteroids would be far easier, though you wouldn't get that spectacular view of Jupiter. Second, a thematic nit. Alan Ladd's excuse for setting what is essentially a Western out in space is that he wanted to show that the frontier is still going to be the same whether it's in Arizona or the outer solar system. Well, building the transcontinental railway wasn't much like building the Alaska pipeline (whaddaya mean we've got to delay this ten billion dollar project because of the caribou?) or even much like building the Panama canal. Mining Io two hundred years from now will not be like mining Colorado in the 1880s because mining Colorado today is not like mining it in the 1880s. ------------------------------ Date: 29 May 1981 12:55 PDT From: Newman.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Twilight Zone Mini-Fest at UCLA, June 1 For Twilight Zone fans in the LA area: Three half-hour episodes will be shown at UCLA's Melnitz Hall auditorium on Monday, June 1 at 5:30 p.m. Titles of the episodes are "Escape Clause", "Steel", and "Mirror Image". /Ron ------------------------------ Date: 30 May 1981 1153-EDT From: MLEASE at BBNC (Michael V. Lease) Subject: Tom Swift on George of the Jungle? Isn't that Tom SLICK??? Mikey ------------------------------ Date: 30 May 1981 1408-PDT From: Friedland at SUMEX-AIM Subject: answers to some SF TV shows questions 1. The racecar driver cartoon that appeared with George, George, George of the Jungle, friend to you and me ..... was Tom SLICK, not Tom Swift. 2. The Supermarionation show about a family that lived on an island and rescued people was "Thunderbirds" who ran a group called International Rescue, and had five vehicles, named Thunderbirds 1 - 5. 3. Some information about SF TV is documented in a book called "Fantastic Television". This mostly covers adult SF TV (like Twilight Zone, Outer Limits, Voyage to See What's on the Bottom, etc.), but does mention some of the "kid" TV shows. IT certainly does cover Tom Corbett and Video Rangers, etc. 4. Glad to hear someone else verifies Gidney and Cloyd--it was the answer that won my team the 1978 Stanford Trivia Bowl Championship. Peter ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 1981 0357-PDT (Tuesday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: Gerry Anderson and Television SF This digest's ongoing discussion of television SF has now passed through arenas ranging from the mundane to the simply bizarre. There are still some gaping holes, one of which I will attempt to fill at this time! In a past digest, brief mention was made of the "puppet" programs. Let's look more closely at the truly unique variety of programming that has appeared under the banner of "supermarionation" (or some similar spelling ...) A substantial line of programs featuring marionettes appeared during the 60's and 70's. All of these programs placed the very human-like puppets in "high-tech" situations of various sorts; situations which frequently involved adventure, intrigue, and, quite frequently, massive explosions! The marionettes "lived" in perfectly scaled worlds, spoke with lip-sync, and generally were so well controlled that the viewer was led to forget that he or she was not watching actual human actors. That all of these programs had major similarities (including musical style) should not be surprising, since all were created and produced by the same man -- Gerry Anderson -- under the auspices of the ITC releasing company. What were these programs, you ask? Supercar -- starring Mike Mercury, the "Supercar" was actually a flying vehicle chock full of tricks and special abilities. Mike and the rest of his "team" spent each half hour episode saving all sorts of dire situations and generally doing good deeds for mankind. This program brought us the immortal words, "Open Roof Doors", several times in each program, as Mike entered or left the "hanger" where the supercar was kept. Fireball XL5 -- A "space"-oriented program, with our heroes flying around to various planets and whatnot, to save dire situations in each episode (sound familiar?) "I wish I were a fireball..." Stingray -- Sort of a "Supercar" -- underwater. The usual dire situations. Thunderbirds -- This program represented pretty much the culmination of the marionette business in this area, and was by far the most elaborate and dramatic. Consisting of both half hour and hour programs, Thunderbirds involved an organization known as "International Rescue", which operated out of a privately owned island. International Rescue had a vast variety of vehicles for use in the air, in space, and underwater, and specialized in getting people out of impossible situations when all hope was lost. Actually a very fine program. Amazing gizmos and technology abounded, and even the usual explosions, fires, and other disasters were performed with extra care and quality. [ Thanks also to Barry Margolin for a description of the Thunderbirds. -- Jim ] By the way, it appears that a couple of existing Thunderbirds episodes have recently been re-edited into a feature film, "Thunderbirds Are Go", which will shortly be making the rounds in the pay-tv circuits around the country -- try to catch it if you have a chance. This brings us to the end of the "puppet" programs, but Gerry Anderson did not stop here. He moved on into live action programming, most of which maintained the high-technology "SF" theme, and which continued to use his classic style of miniatures in effex sequences, with the same style of musical scoring throughout. These programs were also all released by ITC, and included: UFO -- A very unusual program, to say the least. The premise was that aliens are in the process of attacking Earth and, among other things, abducting people for use as transplant donors. The general public, however, is not aware of what is going on ... all incidents involving "ufos" (pronounced U-FOES) are kept secret, and other "explanations" are created for these incidents. The ufos are fought by an organization known as SHADO, which is headquartered under a film studio in England. They possess an impressive array of land, sea, and space equipment (much of which looks very similar to that from "Thunderbirds"!), and even have a secret moonbase. The show is probably best taken with a grain of salt -- frequently technical accuracy takes a back seat to character conflicts and relationships. There is a very active fanclub for this program (which, I believe, also includes a number of Gerry Anderson's other programs). In fact, one of the primary officials of this club reads this very digest [and you know who you are!] I will respect their privacy and allow them to remain anonymous -- perhaps they will see fit to unmask themselves on their own -- maybe to correct any inaccuracies (horrors!) in this message! All in all, UFO can truly be described as "unique". Watch a few and see what I mean; they can be rather enjoyable if viewed in the proper spirit. They still show up sometimes as half hour fillers at random times... Space: 1999 -- This is practically contemporary, so I won't say much about it. A nuclear waste dump on the moon explodes, sending the entire moon (and Moonbase Alpha) off through space on a series of adventures involving a variety of planets, aliens, and things that go bump in the night. There were actually two versions of this program: most of the cast was changed, as well as portions of the "format", between two seasons. The program was indeed notable for the starring roles of Martin Landau and Barbara Baines -- the husband/wife team back together on a program for the first time since "Mission: Impossible". The Protectors -- This one is obscure, and was not at all SF. It involved a group of British, well, "detectives", who were involved in (you guessed it!) a variety of dire situations. Most of the time they were busy "protecting" people -- but since the people would often disappear anyway, it took considerable detective work to find them again! I believe there was at least one other live-action program from Anderson. It may have been the program that starred Gene Barry as an actor who was a part-time "detective" -- "The Adventurer"? I'm not certain. I may even have missed some obscure marionette programs from Anderson, though I know I've covered the main ones. Gerry Anderson's productions through the 60's, 70's, (and, may we presume, the 80's?) have represented an innovative style that stands alone amidst the otherwise often "oatmealy" sameness of television. His programs might well be vulnerable to criticism on various levels, but they were frequently, on a technological and production basis, truly at the forefront of the art of true television "creation". --Lauren-- ------------------------------ Date: 30 May 1981 1706-PDT From: CSD.BOTHNER at SU-SCORE Subject: More nostalgia (Anderson puppet films; The "uncle" books) Gerry and Sylvie Anderson produced in the sixties a whole slew of puppet animation series for children. I think Stingray and Fireball XL-5 were among them. The ones I've seem most of though were Thunderbirds (Geoff@SRI-KL's "unknown") and Captain Scarlet. I saw most of the episodes for both while I was in England. (The Andersons were later responsible for UFO and Space:1999.) Thunderbirds was one of my favorite TV series. A secret organization (International Rescue) lived on a South Sea island. An american millionaire widower (Tracy) was the head, and his 5 (?) grownup sons each had the responsibility of piloting a rocket, named Thunderbird 1 though ... 5. All these ships were hidden below the island, and I still (almost) remember the theme music as, say, the swimming pool slid aside to allow one of the Thunderbirds to take off. The most interesting characters were the English agent, the aristocratic Lady Penelopy, and her devoted cockney ex-con schauffeur and assistant Parker. A couple of feature films were made. I think the full title of Captain Scarlet was "... and the Mysterons", where "Mysterons" was the names given to his Martian adversaries. Scarlet was the head agent of the Mysteron-fighting Spectrum, which had its headquarters in the clouds, borne up by powerful (and energy-thirsty?) jets. One of the Mystersons' main powers was the ability to resurrect someone they had killed and take them over. Their best agent was a resurrected spectrum agent, Captain Black. (Spectrum's boss was Colonel White which presumably was meant to suggest both his age and his stature as a good guy.) On another topic: A series of books I read which I don't suppose have been exported to America were the "Uncle" books by J.P.Martin. Uncle was a fabulously rich elephant who owned a gigantic castle where all sorts of things were wont to happen. His secretary was a chimp, otherwise most of the characters were human. I enjoyed the books a lot (I think there were about 4, including "U. and the Treacle Vat", and "U. and his Detective"), but even at the tender age of 12(?) I found the social and economic philosophy simplistic. For example there was little mention of where U. got his wealth, except that fabulous gifts were always pouring in from admirers around the world. And the ruffians who were always plotting against U's money were obviously Martin's picture of the dirty communists plotting against us honest capitalists. --In re nostalgia, Per Bothner ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 1-JUN "JPM at MIT-ML" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #136 *** EOOH *** Date: 1 JUN 1981 0943-EDT From: JPM at MIT-ML Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #136 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS PM Digest Sunday, 31 May 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 136 Today's Topics: SF Movies - Outland & Barbarella query, SF TV - Here's the Plot,What's the Title, SF Radio - HitchHiker Guide Guide, SF Topics - Children's stories & Children's TV (Roger Ramjet and Rocky and Bullwinkle and Jay Ward Productions and Super Chicken and Speed Racer and Captain Scarlet) Digest Correction - Duplicate message ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 26 May 1981 1753-CDT From: Bob Amsler Subject: Outland, genre "future shock" I have read through the Outland mail messages and feel it is still worth making one point that was only touched upon. The fact that A. Ladd's own film company produced this is significant, as is the continuity with "Alien" in terms of what "Outland" is all about. I suggest that a new "formula" has been discovered, and for my part it DOES work. The "formula" is to take a used-up genre film, for "Alien" this was the horror film, for "Outland" it is the Western, and to remake it in the science-fiction setting with lush space scenery. "Outland" is magnificently "atmospheric". George Lukas established the validity of beat-up equipment giving a science-fiction movie more character and that lesson has been followed in "Outland" to an extreme I found almost over-done. Nearly everywhere in the Con-Am mining facility one sees grubbyness. Apart from the "white" of the medical quarters, the corridors are grimy, with streaked walls where something leaked through. O'Neil's wife mentions she's leaving in part because she is tired of air that smells like the inside of a machine-room (or some such). The living quarters remind one of cramped submarine bunks. Informal dress is grubby sweat-shirt modern. Anyway, the point of this message is that there is a new "pattern" for science-fiction movie-making and I think "Outland" will spawn a series of imitations as well as foster a new effort to extend the "genre transplants" into other non-SF genres. Clearly we could see a Science-Fiction Mystery akin to Asimov's Robot novels; a Spy movie set in the future; not to mention the War Movie (if TESB didn't already achieve that). The results are pleasing enough, but the fun of "Outland" clearly involves making the comparisons with "High Noon". There are many. O'Neil's one-line utterances (to which attention is drawn by his wife in the film); the reactions of those on the mining facility to helping O'Neil in the show-down; the "bottom of the heap" marshall job as the last chance for O'Neil to show he's not the broken-down lawman everyone expects him to be; the "why don't you leave town" query; the "countdown" for the show-down with it's psychological stress.... Pure camp. ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 1981 22:10 edt From: JSLove at MIT-Multics (J. Spencer Love) Subject: Movie Cast Query Sender: JSLove.PDO at MIT-Multics I have been asked by a friend who played the Great Tyrant in Barbarella. In particular, was she played by more than one person, as Darth Vader was: one for the body and another for the voice. A bet hinges on this although I am unable to obtain a percentage for whoever can answer this. Reply to JSL at MIT-Multics and I will send just one copy of the answer to the digest. [ Yes, please reply directly, NOT to the digest. -- Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 1981-5-22-11:31:21.76 Sender: YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO From: NIGEL CONLIFFE at VAXWRK at ORION at METOO Subject: Old, Bad TV Shows of beloved memory (sic) On the subject of old, bad TV shows, there was an old TV show called Phoenix - 5 which used to be shown on Saturday mornings. It was a sort of "Space Patrol" concept, where our three heros (actually two heros, one heroine and a robot) travelled through space protecting Earth against whatever the current nastiness from outer space was. Their principal enemy was a space pirate (whose name I forget, fortunately) who had a beard, and an artificial limb and all the usual cliches. The show was memorable for only two reasons - (1) They must have spent all of $7.32 on special effects - the "master computer" was a collection of christmas tree lights and some actual household light switches! (2) They landed on some strange planet, which was all snow and ice. The pilot asked the robot what the outside temperature was, to which our mechanical friend replied "It's -12 degrees Kelvin", to which the pilot replied "That's cold!" They then donned parkas and down vests and went outside. Does anyone else remember this series (I think it was originally produced in Australia) or is my memory generating parity errors again? Nigel A Conliffe ------------------------------ Date: 30 May 1981 1642-EDT (Saturday) From: Roy.Taylor at CMU-10A Subject: HitchHiker Guide Guide Could someone provide a list of episodes in the HitchHiker's Guide currently running on NPR Playhouse? They don't seem to be numbered nor can I tell how many there are. -- Roy ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 1981 06:06:20-PDT From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley Subject: Children's Science Fiction While wandering in a local bookstore, I saw a rack labelled "Teenage Favorites", which contained about 14 different Danny Dunn books, plus "Miss Pickerell Goes to the Moon." Guess they're still around, though I had trouble reconciling the copyright dates with the order of books in the series and my own recollection of when I read them. ------------------------------ Date: 25 May 1981 20:32:17-EDT From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Rocky and Bullwinkle It has been confirmed by various sources that R&B will be back in distribution for the fall season of Saturday morning shows; I'm told that in NYC they'll be broadcast right after DR. WHO. I have warm memories of that show (and of seeing a complete serial, complete with all the other self-contained episodes they included, at last year's Minicon), although I would have said it actually began in the late 50's rather than the 60's. But as for it being pioneering, a somewhat older acquaintance (born 1946) maintains that the first intelligent cartoon show, from which most of the rest took varieties of inspiration, was "Crusader Rabbit" (with Rags the tiger), which I've never seen. Comments? ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 1981 (Tuesday) 0044-EDT From: PLATTS at WHARTON-10 (Steve Platt) Subject: Bullwinkle Ah, at last a topic I still enjoy! I still remember skipping many a class as an undergraduate to watch the morning editions of Johnny Quest, followed by Bullwinkle. I add to Lauren's list some more bad puns found in B: An entire series devoted to a gemstone boat, the "Ruby Yacht of Omar Khayam"... one of the opponents was a high leader of the mid-east, the "Grand Brassiere"... (some things I really didn't catch when I was 5 or 6 years old...) --- whatever became of Jay Ward and JW Productions, anyway? -Steve ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 1981 (Tuesday) 0026-EDT From: SHRAGE at WHARTON-10 (Jeffrey Shrager) Subject: Animated Kiddy SF Mr. Peabody (the dog) and his pet boy, Sherman, used to use a "wayback" machine to visit the past. This was one of the more instructive shows around but all of the history lessons ended in bad "shaggy dog" punch lines. Remeber Tennessee Tuxedo (a pseudo-penguin) and his friend waldo walrus? They had a friend who was a professor (name forgotten). This character used to explain things by way of a device known as the 3DBB (Three Dimensional Black Board). The things would come out pocket sized and then expand into a rather large (but still only two dimensional!) blackboard. There was some Hanna-Barbara animation called, I think, "Secret Squirrel". He had a gadget ridden car that did everything from fly to play submarine. Along the same line... "Tom, the man from T.H.U.M.B." [Tiny Human ?U? ?M? ?B?]. He had his office in a file drawer and was sent off on secret assignments of an FBI-like flavor. -- Jeff ------------------------------ Date: 30 May 1981 1559-EDT From: MD at MIT-XX Subject: Rocky and Bullwinkle I dug up a lot of information on Jay Ward cartoons from the LSC (MIT Lecture Series Committee - the campus film group) files. It would have been appropriate for the Film-Buffs mailing list, but I'm not sure I should tie up SF-Lovers. I can give you the titles of all 28 Rocky and His Friends series (326 total episodes), the 39 Bullwinkle's Corner episodes, the 60 Mr. Know It All's, the 91 Peabody's Improbable History's, and 91 Fractured Fairy Tales [it's not clear from the sheets I'm looking at whether Aesop and Son was also Jay Ward]. I can also tell you how to go about renting them. If people are really interested, I'll type in the lists (but there's quite a bit of typing involved). It might make sense to set up as a separate file which people could look at or FTP. Send reactions directly to me, MD@MIT-XX. Mike Dornbrook [ Please send your reactions directly to Mike. If enought people are interested then the information will be distributed via the digest's FTP procedures. -- Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 31 May 1981 1228-EDT (Sunday) Sender: David.Ackley at CMU-10A From: Dave Ackley Subject: Tom SLICK and more theme songs The race car driver was Tom Slick, not Tom Swift, in the show featuring him, George of the Jungle, and Super Chicken. Fragments of theme songs: Super Chicken: ... and it looks like you will take a lickin'. There is one thing you should learn, When there is no where else to turn, To ca-all for Super Chicken! ... he will drink his Super Sauce And throw the bad guys for a loss, So ca-all for Super Chicken. Pluck pluck pluck pluck Ca-all for Super Chicken! Pluck GAWK! Speed Racer: Here he comes! Here comes Speed Racer! He's a demon on wheels. He's a demon and he's gonna be chasin' after someone. ... [he will catch them in his powerful?] Mach Five! [At the junior high school age that my buddies and me used to watch this show after school, we got much amusement out of the Mach Five. It had buttons in the center of the steering wheel which could make the car do some impressive things, like sprout wings, go under water, and put out two large sawmill blades in front of the car so Speed Racer could drive pell-mell through dense forest. Classicly Awful! His comic relief characters were his little brother (phonetically) Spridle and his monkey Chim-Chim.] Captain Scarlet: [I remember the music distinctly but can't get words beyond:] Captain Scarlet! [and maybe repeat?] In-De-Structible CAPTAIN SCARLET! [Another classic Japanese Super Marionation import. He was a member of the Spectrum organization, HQed in a thing called Cloud Base, which had no visible means of support. The CO was Colonel White, of course, and the heavy was Captain Black, of course, who had been on the original Mars mission and was taken over by the Mysterons of Mars. The show always opened with some random getting killed and taken over by the Mysterons, with the following voice-over: This is Captain Black, relaying instructions from the Mysterons. [then "plot"-specific details of what evil this guy was to do.] Captain Scarlet suffered a near-miss with the Mysterons which left him "indestructible" and not a candidate for take over. Understandably, the Mysterons didn't like him very much. The equivalent of "Aye aye, sir", on the show was "S.I.G.", which we eventually discovered meant: "Spectrum Is Green". Now THAT makes sense.] Well, enough of this. If anyone is interested, a friend of mine and I recently managed to come up with a complete set of lyrics to "The Patty Duke Show" too! -Dave ------------------------------ Date: 27 May 1981 00:44:13-PDT From: CSVAX.wildbill at Berkeley Subject: Errata and R.R. When Noodles Romanoff threatens to play some music on his "violins" (i.e., not e.g. machine guns), he pronounces it "wye'-o-lince". There is another verse to the Roger Ramjet theme song, and the refrain as originally sent is incorrect. The corrected version is: Roger Ramjet Theme Song Roger Ramjet and his Eagles, Fighting for our freedom. Fly to win in outer space Not to join 'em, but to beat 'em. REFRAIN: Roger Ramjet, he's our man Hero of our nation. For his adventures just be sure And stay tuned to this station! So come and join us all you kids For lots of fun and laughter As Roger Ramjet and his men Get all the crooks they're after. (refrain) Roger Ramjet Closing Theme When Ramjet takes a proton pill, The crooks begin to worry. They can't escape their awful fate From proton's mighty fury. (refrain) So come and join us ... ------------------------------ Date: 31 May 1980 8:40 PST From: The Moderator Subject: Digest Correction - duplicate message In the Friday digest (volume 3, issue 134), a message by Bruce Hamilton (Hamilton.ES at PARC-MAXC) appeared twice. The second occurance of this message should be replaced by the following message. Jim Date: 26 May 1981 1431-PDT (Tuesday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: Re: new mailing lists I am glad, but I am also sorry. It would have been fun. Someday, on another network! --Lauren-- ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 1-JUN "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #137 *** EOOH *** Date: 1 JUN 1981 2132-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #137 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Monday, 1 Jun 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 137 Today's Topics: Administrivia - Science Fiction Convention Calendar for FTPing, SF Books - Cyber-SF & Book Prices, SF Movies - Clash of the Titans, SF Topics - Space Command & Physics Today (Anti-Sugar) & Children's TV (Roger Ramjet) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 05/31/81 00:00:00 From: The Moderator Subject: Science Fiction Convention Calendar Due to the ever increasing size of our Science Fiction Convention Calendar, direct distribution through the digests will no longer be possible. However, updated copies of the calendar will be made available via the FTP mechanism for those of you interested in this material. Everyone interested in reading this material should obtain the file from the site which is most convenient for them. If you cannot do so, please send mail to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST and we will be happy to make sure that you get a copy. Please obtain your copies in the near future however, since the files will be deleted in one week. A copy of the material will also be available upon request from the SF LOVERS archives. Thanks go to Rich Zellich, who has taken over the task of compiling the calendar in the wake of Richard Brodie's departure, and Alyson L. Abramowitz, Roger Duffey, Richard Lamson, Doug Philips, Bob Weissman, Don Woods, and Paul Young for providing space for the materials on their systems. Site Filename MIT-AI AI:DUFFEY;SFLVRS CONS CMUA TEMP:CONS.TXT[X440DP0Z] PARC-MAXC [MAXC]SFL.CON-CAL SU-AI CONS.SFL[T,DON] MIT-Multics >udd>sm>rsl>sf-lovers>cons.text DEC VAX/PDP-11 KIRK::DB1:[Abramowit.SF]cons.txt DEC TOPS-20 KL2137::FTN20:CONS.TXT [Note, you can TYPE or FTP the file from SAIL without an account.] ------------------------------ Date: 27 May 1981 1014-PDT From: Wmartin at OFFICE-3 (Will Martin) Subject: Animal robot There was a robot dog in Woody Allen's movie, "Sleeper" (if I'm remembering this correctly). I think it was called "Rags". Does this count? (If there was ever a novelization of that movie, it could qualify as printed SF.) Will Martin ------------------------------ Date: 27 May 1981 at 0147-CDT From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 Subject: A revised version of that robot animal message... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ CYBER-SF-- robots ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ To make a general answer to some queries... We are only concerned with BOOKS, tho that includes single-author collections like THE REST OF THE ROBOTS as well as novels such as CAVES OF STEEL. So if, for instance, Asimov has a robot dog in TRotR or in I, ROBOT, it's eligible. But otherwise cy-devices from short stories are not within the scope of the study. The books to be covered should have had their initial appearance in the last 50 years, roughly 1930 to the present. Cy-devices from other media, like Dr Who's K-9, are included if they appear in a novelization. Tho not ignored, juveniles and kiddie books are not being hunted down and will generally receive only minimal attention in the write-up. Fantasy is not excluded, but the robot probably needs to be a clock- work device, not just a magically animated statue. So TicToc of Oz is okay but as Pettit at PARC-MAX advised, the Tin Woodman is dubious. As for some specific nominees missing from the following update of the robot-animal list, the Godwhale will be in the CYBORG category rather than the ROBOT one currently under discussion. The critters in Wells' THE PARASAURIANS, if I recall rightly, were biological constructs, not robotic ones like those in Disneyland. If there are some such in fictitional amusement parks (and I, too, feel there must be), we've not found them yet. The list has grown some more as messages and some SF-L's trickle in, yet still remains overwhelmingly canine and avian: Anderson: A CIRCUS OF HELLS Asimov: LUCKY STARR AND THE MOONS OF JUPITER [dog] Asimov: {unidentified source} [dog(s)] Bradbury: FARENHEIT 451 [Mechanical Hound] Bunch: MODERAN Dick: DO ANDROIDS DREAM OF ELECTRIC SHEEP? __________: DR WHO Goulart: AFTER THINGS FELL APART [dogs] Goulart: CALLING DR. PATCHWORK Goulart: HAIL HIBBLER Goulart: WHIFF OF MADNESS: A [guard dogs: horse: birds] Harrison, M.J.: THE PASTEL CITY [birds] Heath: THE MIND BROTHERS [nightingale] Heath: ASSASSINS FROM TOMORROW [hound-like tracking device] High: INVADER ON MY BACK [birds: dogs] High: THE MAD METROPOLIS [insects] High: NO TRUCE WITH TERRA High: THE PRODIGAL SUN [ducks, insects] Knight: THE WORLD AND THORINN [bird] Larson: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA Leiber: THE SILVER EGGHEADS [auto-dog] Norton: {unidentified Witch World novel(s)} [birds] Saberhagen: {unidentified Berserker novel} [wolf] Schmitz: THE WITCHES OF KARRES Sheckley: JOURNEY BEYOND TOMORROW Stasheff: THE WARLOCK IN SPITE OF HIMSELF (Wells R.: THE PARASAURIANS [dinosaur]) ? Zelazny: THE CHANGELING [birds+] Zelazny: LORD OF LIGHT [beetles: Mechobra] Any more data? ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 81 15:20-PDT From: mclure at Sri-Unix Subject: paperback Thanks to the people who responded to my query about paperback book prices. The replies varied greatly, some people predicting the disappearance of books altogether, to be replaced by electronic tablets and plug-in libraries. Perhaps. But assuming this doesn't happen, and there are no major upsets in the paperback publishing industry, we arrive at the figure of $20 - $22 for an "average" book in 2001. Gee, libraries are looking better all the time... ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 1981 16:29:02-EDT From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: CLASH OF THE TITANS Has everyone else who saw the sneak preview punted mentioning it here? (SP was a week ago at MIT.) Brief review: I wasn't highly disappointed at most of it, because I'm not all that impressed with Harryhausen's recent work, but I was disgusted by the fact that the people who did this film seemed to have no sense of self-criticism at all. I'm not much at spotting matte lines, but when the background to a stop-motion model is obviously way out of focus that's irritating, as are his incredibly feeble attempts to mimic the movements of living things (there are repeated cuts between a real seagull and a stop-motion one and the contrast shows up the process work), the fact that quality actors were acting down to the level of the unknowns playing the mortals, the awful script, and the massive ripoff of STAR WARS (Burgess Meredith instead of Alec Guinness, and a pseudo-mechanical owl (i.e., stop-motion movement instead of clockwork, so far as I could see) in place of R2D2). I just barely didn't resent the time I took to see this, or the hour wait to be sure of getting a seat, but I'm glad I didn't pay to get in. ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 1981 1206-PDT (Thursday) From: Mike at UCLA-SECURITY (Michael Urban) Subject: Animal/Magical Robot In the forthcoming hi-budget Harryhausen epic "Clash of the Titans", the hero is provided with a not-too-convincing mechanical robot by the gods. Since it is magical, however, everyone but the viewer fails to notice that it's mechanical. Expect merchandising. Mike ------------------------------ Date: 25 May 1981 10:55:10-PDT From: CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley Subject: sf-lovers--Harryhausen tribute in Berkeley Ray Harryhausen came to town last Saturday night, attracting a good-size crowd and thumping like crazy for Clash of the Titans. He brought along with him a trip down memory lane for dimensional animation enthusiasts-- clips from half a dozen Harryhausen spectaculars. Most enlightening to see the dramatically better realism in the later films, especially CotT. I've seen the previews too, and they do look pretty cheesy, but to judge from the clips shown here, we'll be seeing some fine work next month. For a scene of Perseus taming Pegasus, he alternates medium-long shots of his model with closeups of a real horse; very dangerous, see the Tauntauns in TESB. But he pulls it off admirably, with movements on the model that are astonishingly graceful and realistic (in Q&A later, he mentioned using a real horse for a 'guide': has he ever admitted the like before?). Another clip showed Perseus confronting Medusa in her den, a dungeon gloomily and spookily lit only by flickering torches--with the lighting on the model in perfect synch! Jaded eyes popped. His Medusa is truly memorable, genuinely creepy and effective, and in general, he has come great strides in optically integrating the models with the live actors. I regret to warn you that this film is not above having its own R2D2--a mechanical owl that clunks down to guide Perseus. However, since the sound effects are mostly cuckoo-clock noises, it may be that the thing is around mainly for satirical purposes. On the whole, I came away with a sharply enhanced desire to see the film. Moreover, I think this one will break him through into the mainstream. --Steve ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 31 May 1981 16:10-PDT Subject: ATTENTION ALL SPACE CADETS!!!! PREPARE YOUR ROCKETS! From: mike at RAND-UNIX From Aviation Week, May 25, 1981 Page 40: Serious consideration within the Defense Dept. and Congress of establishment of a new branch of the armed services for space warfare, probably Space Command. The reasoning is that the Air Force and Navy are seeking to avoid developing space weaponry for defense and that any effort in this area takes away from total obligational authority for other planned strategic weapon systems. ... The article, "Beam Weapons Technology Expanding" goes on to mention, several times, about white house concern that the Pentagon branches are hindering development of space technology, as it is not in their traditional mission areas. (Most famous example, the Navy's effort to delay and destroy air power, Billy Mitchell, et alia). The implication is that a special service will support and not hinder development of a new form of defense. If a Space Command, perhaps also a Space Academy? Michael Wahrman ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 1981 1657-PDT From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE Subject: mirror sugar wonderland; Red Moon, Black Mountain There is a discussion of mirror proteins in The Annotated Alice (in through the looking glass Alice would have been able to eat but get no sustenance). I think Martin Gardner is the annotater. Joy Chant's Red Moon and Black Mountain was originally published in the U.S. in 1971 as part of Ballantine's fantasy series (Lin Carter, editor.) Unfortunately someone took mine out on an extended loan, so I got the hardback children's market edition (1975 or 76) to replace it. A very good fantasy book. good reading, --cat ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 1981 23:22:21-PDT From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley Subject: Stereo-isomers Getting a little tired of all the speculation with few facts behind it, I decided to ask a biochemist friend and an immunologist friend about dextro-sugar. Neither was willing to make any firm statements, but both agreed it sounded a bit fishy -- they'd be far more likely to believe it of amino acids than sugars. On a science-fictional note, in Zelazny's "Doorways in the Sand", he points out that reversal can take place in more than way. I can't quite visualize an example, but I suspect that there are some symmetries that would require more than one reversal. Comment, anyone? ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 1981 1008-PDT From: LEWIS at SRI-AI (Bil Lewis) Dolata at SUMEX-AIM mentioned something which implied the existence of reverse "whisk(e)y". Was this a reference to somebody's idea in a story, or is it that the stuff actually exists? -Bil ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 1981 1545-EDT From: MD at MIT-XX Subject: Roger Ramjet If there is a demand for it, I can get information on Roger Ramjet cartoons. We've been showing them for years at LSC films (semi-legitimately). One of our members worked for a television station and rescued a couple dozen episodes from the trash bin (in the 50's and 60's local TV stations were sent much of their material on 16mm film; warehousing was expensive, so eventually it was thrown away). Mike ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 3-JUN "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #138 *** EOOH *** Date: 3 JUN 1981 0808-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #138 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Tuesday, 2 Jun 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 138 Today's Topics: SF Fandom - Awards, SF Books - Cyber-SF, SF Radio - HHGttG & Star Wars & HitchHiker Guide Guide, SF TV - Space: 1999 & The Champions, SF Topics - Children's TV (Rocky and Bullwinkle and Crusader Rabbit and Jay Ward Productions and Super Chicken) & Physics Today (Moons of Jupiter) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 May 1981 1023-PDT From: Wmartin at OFFICE-3 (Will Martin) Subject: Awards It's sad that the various awards for good SF, or children's books, or whatever, have to nominally give an award to a weaker book in a series in order to acknowledge the series itself. Does any book award scheme even acknowledge the existence of any multi-book form, such as trilogies, or open-ended series which all fit in some larger structure? What sort of lobbying effort would it take to get such a category added to the Hugo or Nebula awards? It would have to be a break from the "annual" orientation such awards currently have, but it would free them to consider an author's entire output, or any selection from it they chose. I think that it would be a good thing to have such a category. Will Martin ------------------------------ Date: 27 May 1981 at 2122-CDT From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "Magical" CY-DEVICES ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Originally, "magical" TYPEs were set up to characterize cy-devices which either functioned in a fantasy environment, or whose operation smacked more of magic than mechanics. For the former there was Tic Toc of Oz. For the latter, we had odd devices such as Clayton's cyborging Diadem, Trimble's City Machine robot, and some very strange "computers" of Norton's (and often Dickson's), Foster's Tar Aiym Krang, and on Chalker's Well World. Our object was to have a way of indicating that these were somehow different... that despite superficial similarities, Dickson's psionically operated computer in TIME STORM just wasn't the same kind of thingie as Hogan's in THE GENESIS MACHINE. Well, it turns out that we were wrong to introduce this distinction as a TYPE difference. TYPEs \are/ groupings by superficial similar- ities. Tic Toc and C-3PO and R Daneel Ovilaw \are/ all humanoid robots. The Tar Aiym Krang and Dickson's and Hogan's psionically operated computers form a TYPE because of the similarity of their operation. So we've scrapped the "magical" TYPEs. The difference it represented is now coded elsewhere in the database entry for the given cy-device. (Tho TYPE is the most crucial characteristic, a full entry has a lot more info than that. If anyone is interested, I can send him/her a copy of the full range of data we are trying to collect for each cy- device.) ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jun 1981 06:43:31-PDT From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley Subject: Radio SF in the Research Triangle Park area Starting Sunday, June 7, WUNC-FM (91.5) will rebroadcast all of "The Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galaxy" and "Star Wars." "Hitch-hiker's" will be on at 6:00 PM Sundays (and 11:00 pm Tuesdays, I think); "Star Wars" at 6:30 pm Sundays and 11:00 pm Thursdays. ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jun 1981 10:46:02-EDT From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: SPACE: 1999 I'm a bit surprised at this being included in Anderson's highly-praised work without even a caveat. I could only sit through a couple of shows (usually when the TV was background to something else) but don't recall (even allowing for the effect of seeing them on video rather than in a theater) any particularly daring or innovative effects. It was widely held that the largest expense on that show was Barbara Bain's Novocain(r) supply so her face could stay as wooden as that of Anderson's marionettes. The show's ultimate putdown was one of Bob Chartrand's better puns: "SPACE: 1999--marked down from 2001". ------------------------------ Date: 1 June 1981 14:34 edt From: JRuggiero.PDO at MIT-Multics Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #136 Hello there, this is in response to an inquiry about the hitch-hikers' guide to the galaxy. There are currently 12 episodes in the guide. I have taped them all. the series is broken into sets of six episodes so if you hear episode 6 it will say that it is the last episode. For further idenification, episode 6 is the one where everyone is eaten by the Hagunenon admiral while he has evolved into a carbon copy of the Ravenous Bugblattar Beast of Traal. For more info send me mail. -john ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jun 1981 06:46:09-PDT From: decvax!duke!unc!tyg at Berkeley Subject: Next fall's Sat. TV and comix From the latest issue of the Comic Reader: Rocky and Bullwinkle will be rerun on NBC. New episodes of Space Ghost. And a new show, Superhero High, 'bout a HS for guess who. The only one mentioned was Captain California, a surfer type with a wave that always follows him around. As for comix, yes i too wasted my youth, adolescence, and my current young adulthood on them. I learned to read from them, and even won the trivia contest at the only comicon i ever attended (do YOU know what Phlon is? No, not Mexican egg custard, its Chemical King's home planet). I doubt that Aquaboy and Aquaman are related, especially since back around 66-67 Aquaman had his own Sat. show. Personal inquiry: i'll be working in Waltham this summer. Would some nice MIT person let me read news over there? Pretty please? tom galloway @ unc ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jun 1981 8:22:48 EDT (Monday) From: Ben Littauer Subject: rocky and bullwinkle If Boris Badinoff and Natasha are from Pottsylvania, where (and what) is Rongivia. There is a bar in upstate NY called the Rongovian Embassy, and I felt sure it was named for a country in Rocky and his Friends. Anybody remember? [By the way, the Rongo has great mexican food and a large beer menu...] Ben ------------------------------ Date: 1 June 1981 12:35 edt From: JSLove at MIT-Multics (J. Spencer Love) Subject: Crusader Rabbit and Title Query Sender: JSLove.PDO at MIT-Multics I remember Crusader Rabbit. I think that I became aware of it at about age 5 (circa 1861), although it could be as much as two years later. I lived at that time in the NYC broadcast area, and it was on very early in the morning, perhaps on Saturday. My memories of the show are fond, although I don't remember much detail and haven't seen it in at least 18 years. The show was broken up into cartoon-length segments, and several different series were interleaved. I particularly remember one about a skunk named Odie, but there were others. Does anyone know when or where these might be seen? Even if I don't like them anymore (a distinct possibility), I would like to see them again for curiousity's sake. I also remember another show, in the late sixties, probably of English make, which was about three secret agents who crash landed in the Himalayas (or someplace like that) and were nursed back to health by monks (or aliens pretending to be monks) and given mysterious powers that weren't entirely dependable but which included telepathy and precognition, as well as some amazing physical abilities. I have forgotten almost everything about it; I think it was called The Champions, and it had some really far-out (read, great) theme music which I would very much like to get a tape of or music to. Does anyone remember enough to identify the music? Other details would be appreciated. If you reply directly to JSL at MIT-Multics I will digestify the replies and submit them, eliminating duplication. [ The show in question was called "The Champions" (see the next two messages for more about this show). If anyone can identify the music for this show, then please send your replies directly to JSL at MIT-Multics, not SF-LOVERS. -- Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jun 1981 11:55 PDT From: Kolling at PARC-MAXC Subject: The Protectors/Champions Could "The Protectors" be the show I remember as "The Champions"? Three agents of some British government organization acquired various super powers (telepathy plus?) when their plane crashed in the Himalayas(?) and some remote tribe of advanced beings operated on them to save their lives. The leads were two men and a women; one of the men was American (Stuart Damon or something?) Karen ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jun 1981 2035-PDT (Monday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: The Protectors/Champions No -- There is no relationship between the two shows. The characters in "The Protectors" were quite "normal": no super powers, no remote tribes helping them. --Lauren-- ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jun 1981 0838-PDT (Monday) From: Mike at UCLA-SECURITY (Michael Urban) Subject: Jay Ward etc. Where to begin? First of all, back in the 50's, Crusader Rabbit and Ragland P. Tiger lived in Galahad Glen and went out to foil the villains Dudley Nightshade and Bilious Green. Crusader Rabbit was a serial, and each episode ended with a promise of the next episode by title, usually a bad pun. If the format sounds like Rocky and Bullwinkle, it's probably because Jay Ward created Crusader Rabbit. Unfortunately, unlike his later creations, he didn't retain his rights on the characters. I don't know any more details than that. I can remember quite a few things about the show, since it aired not too long ago in the LA area. Recently, on the local Los Angeles program, "Two on the Town", a couple of reporters visited with June Foray Donovan, who did the voices of Rocky and Natasha and a host of others (as they say). It seems her CB club (she's a CBer) has started a push to get R&B revived. No more details were given. They also interviewed William Conrad ("Cannon", "Nero Wolfe") who you will no doubt recall was the Narrator for Rocky and Bullwinkle. He read a few lines of narration, then confessed that he couldn't maintain the high pitch for long nowadays. He agreed that R&B was one of the best things he'd ever done. Then there was a segment filmed at the Dudley Do Right Emporioum on Sunset, run by Jay Ward's wife, I believe. Jay Ward himself is VERY shy and won't talk to reporters. Not much new information in that segment. But Ward has all the merchandising rights to his post-Crusader Rabbit creations. Nobody has mentioned Hoppity Hooper and Uncle Waldo, a R&B clone also from Ward and Company. Not as good, but certainly in the same vein. Evidently, the only new stuff Jay Ward is doing nowadays seems to be Captain Crunch commercials. A pity. Television NEEDS rocky and Bullwinkle. The three George-of-the-Jungle segments air on Sunday Mornings in LA mixed in with old Popeye cartoons on Tom Hatten's "Popeye and Friends", I believe. My information is a couple of months old, though. And yes, old-time LA TV watchers, that's the SAME Tom Hatten. When you find yourself in danger When you're threatened by a stranger And it looks like you will take a lickin' (cluck-cluck-cluck-cluck) There is someone waiting who Will hurry up and rescue you: Ca-a-a-a-all for SUper CHicken Fred, if you're afraid we'll have to overlook it; Besides you knew the job was dangerous when you took it. He will drink his super sauce and throw the bad guys for a loss and he will bring them in alive and kickin' (cluck-cluck-cluck-cluck) There is one thing you should learn When there is no one else to turn to, Ca-a-a-a-ll for Super chicken (cluck cluck cluck cluck) Ca-a-a-a-all for super chicken (b-GAK!) Mike ------------------------------ Date: 1 June 1981 12:37-EDT From: "Kenneth W. Haase, Jr." Subject: Jupiter or the Asteroids There is no problem with getting a mining base on Io, in fact, it may very well be easier and more profitable than putting one out in the asteroids. The delta-vee and fuel required to reach a moon of Jupiter is very close to that required to reach a specific asteroid. It might even be less- you have to use energy to be "captured" by the asteroid or by Jupiter, and it takes a LOT less to get caught by Jupiter (the problem may be staying away!) So it may actually be cheaper in terms of fuel and energy to go to Io than to, say, Ceres. Further, if you want to go to another asteroid, it takes a truly incredible amount of energy, while jumping from Jovian moon to Jovian moon is cheap in terms of energy. There are very large delta-vees for capture to capture trajectories. We also know where there are water and other materials in the Jovian system, so se don't have to search too much - and when we do search it will be a lot cheaper than a similar search of asteroids. And finally, there is a REALLY great view! A good portion of these arguments came from an article of POURNE's [ Dr. Jerry E. Pournelle -- Jim ], which is anthologized in A STEP FARTHER OUT. See you on the ski slopes of Encaladeus, Ken Haase ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jun 1981 10:59:16-EDT From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: mining on Io As an acquaintance of the person who deduced Io's structure and dynamics (and got a couple of publications in SCIENCE for it) I would agree with all of REDFORD's points about the untenantability of Io. HOWEVER, the end of the msg again forgets ?'s point that we can't expect continuous linear advances over the course of history. In particular, he makes a false analogy with mining in Colorado. After all, Colorado today is practically civilized (with the exception of Coors)---they're even going to hold a World SF convention there this summer! I would argue that there are a couple of believable analogies between \\1880's// Colorado and Io-as-it-could-be: both are a substantial amount of travel time removed from what is called civilization, both are populated mostly by people you wouldn't want in your house, and people without skins and personalities of leather leave both to go "back East" in search of smoother life. OUTLANDS is \\precisely// the sort of story that H. L. Gold said in the first issue of GALAXY that he would never publish, but that doesn't make this vision of the future completely illegitimate. Consider Bester's portrayal of 2450 in THE STARS MY DESTINATION; this is a reasonable extrapolation of the results of a specific innovation, even though much of the resulting society strikes us as a reversion to some of the more unpleasant attributes of previous centuries. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 4-JUN "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #139 *** EOOH *** Date: 4 JUN 1981 0814-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #139 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Wednesday, 3 Jun 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 139 Today's Topics: SF Fandom - UFO Fan Club, SF Movies - Script query & Outland, SF TV - It's About Time, SF Topics - Children's TV (Rocky and Bullwinkle and Jay Ward Productions and Super Chicken and Thunderbirds and Johnny Quest and Crusader Rabbit and George of the Jungle) & Physics Today (Anti-Sugar) & Space Command ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 Jun 1981 0025-PDT (Tuesday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: UFO Fanclub The official from the "UFO Fanclub" which I mentioned in a previous digest definitely prefers to remain anonymous. However, they have provided me with the address to which any questions can be directed: SHADO USCC 7825 Riverton Ave. Sun Valley, CA. 91352 --Lauren-- ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jun 1981 0821-PDT Sender: WMARTIN at OFFICE-3 From: WMartin at Office-3 (Will Martin) Subject: Film query Since FILM-BUFFS bit the dust before it even started, I am forwarding this initial query/contribution to SFL instead, in the hope that the filmic wizards hereupon can answer it. Begin forwarded message Date: 27 May 1981 1011-PDT From: Wmartin Subject: Source for scripts Is there any commercial or Motion-picture-academy source for movie scripts? Or do the studios sell copies? If so, are these in final, released and edited form, or the original script as written without cutting-room or on-the-fly or ad lib changes? What sort of prices do they sell for? Will Martin (WMartin at Office-3) End forwarded message ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jun 1981 17:49:06-PDT From: decvax!duke!unc!bch at Berkeley Subject: more on Outland Must we go through this again?: From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE Subject: more on Outland Second, a thematic nit... Mining Io two hundred years from now will not be like mining Colorado in the 1880s because mining Colorado today is not like mining it in the 1880s. This may be true, this may not be true. Knowing that A<>B says nothing about C, which we know little about. Not being able to read your mind, I have to guess that you hold the belief that social innovation and technological innovation follow some kind of linear trend over time. This is not demonstrable even with regard to technological "progress" (how do you explain the dark ages?) much less with social "progress;" a term whose definition eludes me completely. I don't think anyone is saying that Ladd's prognostication is necessarily correct, the point is that it is not necessarily incorrect either. I think, however, you need to make your assumptions explicit. Byron Howes ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jun 1981 11:41:00-EDT From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Harryhausen He may have studied live models, but he still doesn't have the foggiest idea of how to imitate the motion of an organic (i.e., non-mechanical) wing. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jun 1981 11:38:52-EDT From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: inversions Various forms of inversion have been described in SF. --There was the objection that full inversion (ala DOORWAYS IN THE SAND) would turn particles into anti-particles. The inverter is specifically described as an historic artifact---the second one ever built, because the first one didn't exclude elementary particles from its inversion. Inversion at the particle level was suggested in at least one STAR TREK episode, although not very realistically; inverted duplicates were not true anti-matter but blew up only when in contact with the uninverted forms from which they were copied. --George Gamow discusses topological inversions in ONE, TWO, THREE. . . INFINITY; these are also very effectively illustrated in the Time/Life Series' book on mathematics. Consider turning a tire tube inside out through the valve stem (Gamow's example produces a human with guts on the outside and the universe on the inside; other writers apparently consider this extreme.) This is described as a surgical procedure in Leiber' THE BIG TIME (\\highly// recommended). This kind of inversion is also a key to possibly psychokinetic murders in Ian Wallace's DEATHSTAR VOYAGE; if you PK-invert a tennis ball without allowing for the fact that you started with more material on the outside than on the inside, it blows up. --The inversion in DitS is also not a simple pair operation (the hero becomes uninverted only by resetting the controls). An inverted coin sent through a second time comes out with the raised portions depressed. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jun 1981 (Tuesday) 0059-EDT From: PLATTS at WHARTON-10 (Steve Platt) Subject: more kiddee cartoon answers I think the professor in Tennessee Tuxedo was named "Phineas T. Whoopie". TT was voiced by Don Adams, later to star in "Get Smart". [ Thanks also to Antonino Mione for pointing out the correct name of Mr. Whoopie. -- Jim ] I'm not sure, but Aesop&Son is probably a Ward production. The animation style was similar to the others, and each ended in a horrendous pun. Is there a list anywhere/does anyone remember the "continued" titles of the "next episodes" for Bullwinkle? Super-chicken, as I remember, lived in Pittsburgh. (I remember a phone call in one episode, "long distance to Pittsburgh, Pa, please". Wasn't one of the vehicles in "Thunderbirds" contained within another? [ Yes, one of the vehicles was. Thunderbird 1 was a rocket craft meant to travel through the atmosphere (and thus for air rescues and general purpose transport). Thunderbird 3 was an interplanetary spacecraft, designed for space rescues. Thunderbird 5 was a space station that acted as the communications center for operations. Thunderbird 2 was a general purpose transport, that carried special rescue equipment to the scene of an accident. Finally, Thunderbird 4 was the sea rescue craft, rather small and designed to operate at great depths. It was often carried by Thunderbird 2, since it could only travel at sea. -- Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jun 1981 1928-PDT From: First at SUMEX-AIM Subject: Superchicken Song, Tennessee Tuxedo corrections... The Professor on Tennessee Tuxedo was NOT a Professor--his name was Mr. Whoopee and the walrus sidekick was named "Chumley". And the voice of Tennessee was, of course, Don Adams. The DEFINITIVE (maybe) words for Superchicken (according to my roommate who has spent his childhood behind a CRT--and I don't mean a terminal!): When you find yourself in danger, When you're threatened by a stranger, When it looks like you may take a lickin' [PA-CAWK!] There is someone waiting who will hurry up and rescue you just caaaaaaaaall for SUPERCHICKEN! And though it looks like you may have to overlook it, Besides you knew this job was dangerous when you took it, He will drink his super sauce, and throw the bad guys for a loss, and he will bring them in alive and kickin' [PA-CAWK!] There is one thing you should learn, when there is no one else to turn to Caaaaaaaaaaall for SUPERCHICKEN (x2) [PA-CAWK!] His companion's name was Fred, the lion (who always wore a red sweatshirt with a backwards "F"). Anybody know about the continued existence of the Doodley Do-right Emporium in LA?? BTW: the voice of Roger Ramjet was done by that well-known "To Tell the Truth" personality, Orson Bean! Space-Ghost was Gary Owen (of Laugh-in) ...and Pebbles and Bam-Bam are Sally Struthers and Jay (Dennis the Menace) North! (and the voice of Rockey the Squirrel was a female--I don't remember her name-she was on the Tomorrow show a couple of years ago with Mel Blanc)... Thanx for the memories.... --Michael ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jun 1981 2319-PDT (Monday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: misc. madness I can't possibly argue with a source like the Stanford Trivia Bowl, so I stand corrected: Gidney and Cloyd. --- We've been discussing ALOT of different animated programs, and have strayed a bit from pure SF -- but, what the hell? Here are a few goodies from some of the shows already mentioned (and a couple of others as well): Tennessee Tuxedo (voice was done by Don Adams [Maxwell Smart]): "Tennessee Tuxedo WILL NOT fail!" Tom Slick (the "racer" from George of the Jungle): "There's no such word as FAIL in Auto Racing!" Super Chicken (whose sidekick, Fred the Lion, always wore a t-shirt with a big F on the front -- BACKWARDS): "You knew the job was dangerous when you took it!" George of the Jungle (friend to you and me): [Everyone TO George]: "Watch out for that tree! " [George]: "ARRRRGHHH! [splat]" Professor Wierdo (from "Milton the Monster"): "Six drops of the essence of terror, Five drops of sinister sauce..." [Count Kook]: "When the stirring's done, may I lick the spoon?" [Wierdo]: "Of course! Ah hah... of course!" --- Some more randomness: Johnny Quest: Was the son of a famous research scientist ("Dr. Quest"). They flew around in a jet which was more like a Concorde than a Lear! The pilot (an all-around helpful he-man type guy) was named "Race Bannon". Johnny had an Indian (from India!) friend named Hadji, and a dog named Bandit. Crusader Rabbit deserves special mention. I do not think this was a J. Ward production -- and it definitely predates Rocky by some ways. Crusader and his pal Rags (Ragland T. Tiger) were always engaged in all sorts of bizarre, episodic adventures. Quite a show. The theme music, by the way, was a rather slow tempo version of a segment from "Way Down Yonder in the Paw Paw Patch" (Burl Ives fans take note!) --- Ever notice how so many characters in animated and other programs in the 60's (not including the greatest comedy of them all, DRAGNET), were involved with drugs? Mr. Terrific had his power pill. Captain Nice had his super liquid. Roger Ramjet had his proton pill. Super Chicken had his super sauce. Underdog (voice by Wally Cox) had some chemical enhancement as well. Alot of kids grew up watching this stuff... is it a small wonder that drugs became such an influence on many of their lives? --- Some people have asked me why I remember so many ridiculous old TV theme songs and such. I'll admit to having a good memory, but I also have an audio aid! In the early 60's, I had a cheap little tape recorder. I had this silly habit of recording TV themes. I used to drive people crazy! "Why would you want to record this theme? You can hear it every week!" But I didn't listen, and continued to madly record almost every theme of interest (to me) that I could find. I still have a copy of that tape! So whenever I have the urge (infrequently) to hear the theme to "The Invaders", "Time Tunnel", "Rango", or "It's about Time" (either version!), I whip out the tape and let it play. Great nostalgia value. --- Finally, a few words concerning "It's About Time". This live-action show involved a pair of astronauts who find themselves back in prehistoric times. This comedy (yes, comedy!) did not do too well in the ratings, so in an attempt to save it, they had the two main cavepeople return with the astronauts to the 20th century. This involved reworking the theme song a bit, which was rather amusing to begin with: It's about time, it's about space. About two men in the strangest place. It's about time, it's about flight. Traveling faster than the speed of light. Here is our tale, of the strange crew... As through the barrier of time they flew! Past, the fighting minutemen... Past, an armored knight... Past, a Roman warrier... To, this ancient site! ... and so on. --- Man, does this message ever ramble! Sorry about that. Consider it a slice of life -- or the ravings of a madman if you wish. Until next time... --Lauren-- P.S. Coming soon in a future message: Colonel Bleep and ZERO ZERO island! Spunky and Tadpole! And a river into the past. Stay tuned. --LW-- ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 1 Jun 1981 11:59-PDT Subject: Crusader Rabbit and Jay Ward From: mike at RAND-UNIX Crusader Rabbit has been mentioned as a precursor of Rocky and Bullwinkle. How true! C.R. was made by Jay Ward Productions and was their first animated series. I saw a Jay Ward retrospective last year which began with Crusader Rabbit. The animation was primitive (!!! talk about limited animation !!!) but the story line was good, and it was fun to watch. Currently Jay Ward makes commercials. Captain Crunch, etc. Their studios are on Sunset Blvd right off the strip here in LA. If you drive down the strip past Larrabee you will see a giant Moose, Bullwinkle T. Moose himself, beckoning you to the world-famous Dudley DooRight Emporium where you can order animated cells of your favorite heroes, Rocky, Bullwinkle, Boris, Natasha, Gidney, etc. That's also where I got my "Moosylvania Farkling Squad" Tshirt. Two years ago at the ASIFA (international animated film society) annual Cell Sell, June Foray and the others did a live performance of some old Jay Ward scripts. It was wonderful. Michael ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jun 1981 19:20 PDT From: Newman.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: New Pentagon branch for Space Warfare Just what we need, a Department of Space Warfare. Aren't there some treaties prohibiting the use of space for military weaponry? /Ron ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 2 Jun 1981 10:28-PDT Subject: Space treaties From: mike at RAND-UNIX Re: treaties prohibiting weapons in space, As I recall, there is a treaty prohibiting the basing of atomic weapons in space. [ Actually, the UN Space Treaty prohibits weapons of "mass destruction," which can include biological nasties and even energy weapons (if they could destroy whole cities for instance). -- Jim ] I don't believe there is any treaty against reconnaissance, beam weapons or conventional weapons. (Conventional weapon example: comrade soviet satellite noodging up to friendly innocent tourist american satellite (taking pretty pictures of dashas in the south of motherland) and then exploding sending tourist satellite to hell). Re: treaties in general, Treaties of this type are, it appears, made out of convenience to the major parties of the treaty. When the technology changes, or the advantage changes, the treaty ceases to be. This is probably a misquote, but didn't the Mice That Roared define a Peace Treaty as "that agreement between countries in effect until the next war"? Michael Wahrman ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 5-JUN "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #140 *** EOOH *** Date: 5 JUN 1981 0827-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #140 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Thursday, 4 Jun 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 140 Today's Topics: SF Fandom - Convention Change (this weekend) & Awards, SF Books - Cyber-SF, SF Radio - HHGttG, SF TV - The Champions & The Protectors & Superhero High, SF Topics - Children's stories (The Mad Scientists Club and Rick Brandt) & Children's TV (Rocky and Bullwinkle and Secret Squirl and Underdog and Road Runner) & Physics Today (Moons of Jupiter) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MCB@MIT-MC Date: 06/03/81 05:47:03 Subject: FilkCon Change I got a phone call this evening from Bjo Trimble who has been organizing FilkCon West, scheduled for this coming weekend. She told me that because of a lack of needed support, the Hotel originally designated for the convention had to be ruled out. There were six others besides myself who had reserved rooms for the con, and I imagine Bjo called them too. Bjo told me that arrangements have been made to have the Con at the LASFS buildings, which have been rented for the same weekend, instead. Also, The cost will now be 5.00 instead of 12.00. The LASFS is at: 11513 Burbank Blvd. North Hollywood, Ca. Phone for those who call during the filking is: 760-9234. ------------------------------ From: DP@MIT-ML Date: 06/03/81 22:38:52 Subject: New hugo/other category. first a few points. 1. SF Fan politics is truly a thing unto itself. It is amazing the amount of time consumed by the topic. 2. Hugo awards are somewhat at the whim of the con committee. At various times differing committees have added additional awards. (that is how Asimov got his) To add an award, simply propose it as an amendment to the WSFS (World Science Fiction Society) constitution. This can be done at the business meeting that occurs at all Worldcon's. (All members of the current World SF convention are members of WSFS, and eligible to propose amendments, vote at the business meeting,etc.) I have some doubts as to possible success, but it will generate *LOTS* of impassioned debate. Some advance campaigning is in order. This would include letters to fanzines concerned with running conventions ( Avenging Aardvark aerie, File 770 [general fannish news zine], Rocky Mountain Oysters [published by the Denvention concom], or to the Chicon committee). This will (if nothing else) make your name known to fandom. As to the nebula, contact your friendly swfa member and ask heesh to sponsor it. If the pro in question likes the idea, it may happen. Jeff ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jun 1981 1507-PDT From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE Subject: animals With the book criterion in mind: The mice, fleas, etc. I mentioned before from The Martian Chronicles. (The Silver Locusts is another name for the Martian Chronicles). The robot vulture in Goulart's Quest of the Gypsy, a story in volume I of Weird Heroes, also appears (and is a major character) in the full length novel Quest of the Gypsy which is volume IV of Weird Heroes. One of the robots made by Smythe and Tinker, (the OZ folks who made Tik-Tok,) appears in Volume VI of Weird Heroes, Doc Phoenix: The Oz Encounter. The robot birds appear in Web of the Witch World (second in the series), and possibly in Witch World, as well. --cat ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jun 1981 18:21:03-PDT From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley Subject: animal robots The Norton novel with a robot bird is "Witch World", the first one in the series. ------------------------------ Date: 3 June 1981 12:34 edt From: Roach at MIT-Multics (Roger A. Roach) Subject: Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy Sender: Roach.SysMaint at MIT-Multics Schedule in the Boston area: Sunday at 7:30pm on WBUR (90.9). June 7th will be episode 8. Monday at 10:30pm on WGBH (89.7). June 8th will be episode 1 (2nd time thru). ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jun 1981 1052-PDT From: Friedland at SUMEX-AIM Subject: champions and protectors As others have stated, the two shows were indeed separate. The Protectors starred Robert Vaughn and a well known English actress whose name escapes me at the moment. The champions starred Stuard Damon, Richard Gaunt, Alexandra Bastedo, with Anthony Quayle as their boss, the head of Nemesis (headquartered in Geneva). Their super powers included telepathy and the ability to run faster than runaway delivery trucks. Peter ------------------------------ Date: 3 JUN 1981 2345-PDT From: RODOF at USC-ECL Subject: Superhero High, etc... Having recently begun working at Filmation, I was interested to note that Superhero High is already mentioned here in SFL. The first drafts of the characterization sheets just came out in the office yesterday. It is, as mentioned, about a high school for young superheros, who usually haven't gotten the hang of their powers yet. There are a number of them --- Captain California (nuclear flying surfboard, a "Mega Smile" that can stop a train in its tracks) Glorious Gal (the superstrong sex interest) Rex Ruthless (aspiring arch-villain) plus such as Awol, Trixie, Bratman, Punk Rocky, et. al... Speaking of the old and the new, cartoon wise, it's interesting to be trying to storyboard the new cartoons so they'll be at least interesting, especially as compared to the old stuff. We're hampered by a few restrictive rules -- and oddly enough, it isn't really money that makes Saturday cartoons so blase (accent grav). It's simply that it is hard to make an action program like the Lone Ranger or Zorro real exciting when you realize that not only is it a no-no for the Lone Ranger to shoot people, he also cannot hit or kick them, or shoot, hit or kick anything higher on the evolutionary scale than photosynthesis. They were even afraid to give Zorro a sword, though they finally did. And not only is personal violence out, but the Lone Ranger, wishing to stop a train, for instance, would not be allowed to roll a boulder across the tracks. Too imitatable. Might give the kids ideas. So remember, next time you see the Saturday morning cartoons and wonder where all the excitement went, remember that the guys in the company probably sweated blood to make what you're seeing as exciting as it is -- without blood. But at least the kids are saved from the corrupting influence that ruined US, and the studios are safe from lawsuits. ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 1981 14:07:39-PDT From: ARPAVAX.ghb at Berkeley Subject: Nostalgia (Rick Brandt and The Mad Scientists Club) Ah, what memories keep flowing out under the prodding of this discussion. Two books (or series) were recently mentioned, and I can't resist adding my little bit. Rick Brandt: I have actually only read the first of what I gather was quite a large series, but as I recall it concerned the teen-age son of a famous scientist, who gets involved in all sorts of adventures. The first book (published ~1949 (I know it was soon after WWII, as Rick meets up with a friend who has just gotten out of the Marines, and fought on Guadalcanal)), involves firing an (unmanned) rocket to the moon. From our current position, it is a bit out of date (I remember Rick racing around the city trying to buy replacement tubes for the launch console), and some of the science is silly (the rocket took 2 minutes (!!!) to fly to the moon, and Rick's father explained to a reporter, "We could have made it in 30 seconds."). The Mad Scientists Club was one of my prime delights. They were a bunch of high school students who used all sorts of (non-science- fictional) gadgets in interesting ways. In one, they built a Loch Ness style monster on a canoe hull and, with radio control, sailed it around the lake, giving tourists a scare. Another time they took a mannequin and outfitted him with all sorts of gadgetry, such as a speaker, and some helium balloons in a backpack, all radio controlled. They put the dummy on a monument in the center of their little town (somewhere in Illinois, I think) on the day before the towns founders day celebration (they constantly harassed the poor mayor). So this dummy stands up on top of the monument and threatens to jump, and generally ruins the mayor's day, and then flies away on balloons just as the fire department runs a ladder up to rescue him. I used to love the stories. Sorry, folks, I don't know the authors of either book. --george bray ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jun 1981 1651-PDT Sender: GEOFF at SRI-CSL Subject: Secret Squirl & Friends. From: the tty of Geoffrey S. Goodfellow Re: Jeff Sharger's message on 'Secret Squirl'... I literally think of good old 'Secret' (even in the voice that his chauffeur 'mole' used to say his name in) every time I go out of town and wished that my BMW would be able to fold up into a briefcase like his Limousine did, so I could take it with me! Speaking of such classics's, let's not forget "Underdog"! ...Another one of my favorites of the time. Anyone remember the news paper reports name and the name of that evil scientist 'Simon(?)' something or other who was always menacing the city. (What was the city's name?). Lastly, another one of the "Kiddy-type-shows" you get to appreciate the humor in more the older you get was BATMAN (& Robin)... "Stately Wayne Manor" and all... What a gas. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jun 1981 (Wednesday) 1451-PST From: DWS at LLL-MFE Subject: Trivia time ... For 17 trivia points, what was Natasha's (of R&B fame) last name? ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jun 1981 (Tuesday) 0111-EDT From: SHRAGE at WHARTON-10 (Jeffrey Shrager) Subject: Official ACME SF-Lover's entry --- This side up ---> My absolute favorite kids TV show...probably still my favorite cartoon of all time was certainly the road runner. I think that its visual jokes were probably on par with the verbal ones in Rockie (I've now repelt that name 6 times and can't get it right) et al. Although more like engineering than sci-fi, the coyote had some truely marvelous Rube-Goldbergs. I remember one scene where he got an "ACME Univac Electronic Brain." I wanted to write for a copy of the frame since our engineering main machine is a Univac. Everything was of ACME origin. The chain reactions and visual puns were really well conceived -- always to the detriment of Wiley E. Coyote (Fendishis Hungrius!). The other great Warner Brothers set was the Daffy Duck series featuring Space Duck (or something like that) -- Oh, I remember! DUCK DODGERS -- in the 25th Century!!!!!!! ... and the little martian man. I think WB was (were?) the greatest cartoonist (s?) alive -- are they (he?) still? ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jun 1981 12:23:32-EDT From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Jupiter's moons vs the asteroids I have read that Jerry Pournelle publicly retracted most of the suggestions made in the article quoted by Ken after the first close fly-by of Jupiter discovered, among other things, that Jupiter's magnetic field would make life extremely difficult on any of the moons. Saturn's moons (e.g. Enceladus) could be less unlivable (I don't recall anyone specifically determining this from the Voyager data) but Saturn is also much further away---a set of colonies based on its moons would be fundamentally isolated (by time if not by delta-vee) even if somebody faxed them up-to-date editions of the New York TIMES, PRAVDA, SCIENCE, etc. ------------------------------ Date: 2 June 1981 10:42-EDT From: James M. Turner Shade and Sweet water, Doesn't the idea of mining Iota seem just a little far fetched? I haven't seen Outland, but Jupiter is a little far off to be an economically feasible. ------------------------------ Date: 4 June 1981 01:36 edt From: Schauble.Multics at MIT-Multics Subject: Shotguns in *Outland* I can't think of any reason why a shotgun shouldn't work in a vacuum. You would need to use special grease so that the lubricant doesn't evaporate and parts seize. And perhaps some of the critical parts would need a bonded layer lubricant, but those differences would be strictly internal and not visible. Seems like a very useful weapon to me. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 5-JUN "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #141 *** EOOH *** Date: 5 JUN 1981 1021-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #141 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Friday, 5 Jun 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 141 Today's Topics: SF Poll - Favorite Rare SF, SF News - Locus, SF Books - Fantasticats & The Right Stuff, SF Movies - Capsule Movie Reviews & Script query answered, SF TV - Sex in Star Trek, Digest Correction - Wording Error, SF Topics - Children's stories (Mushroom Planet and Mr. Bass) & Children's TV (Super President), Spoiler - Star Trek (Sex) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 4 Jun 81 16:00-PDT From: mclure at Sri-Unix Subject: Locus blurbs The June issue mentions that 1) Asimov has signed a contract for a new novel in the Foundation series, called Lightning Rod. 2) A new Star Trek movie is in the works, but with a $6 million dollar budget instead of $40 million+ for the last one, and reportedly Spock is killed in the preliminary script (since Nimoy apparently wants out of the entire thing), 3) Omni's successful science fiction anthologies may coalesce into a new magazine called Omni Science Fiction (the first anthology sold 350,000 copies in 3 months, the best for any SF anthology). ------------------------------ Date: 27 May 1981 at 0120-CDT From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 To: sf-lovers at mit-ai ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ FANTASTICATS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I've been invited down to San Antonio to give a talk to a cat club on cats in SF, and would like to give them a "recommended reading" list of books which feature felines prominently and IN A FAVORABLE LIGHT. The books should be fairly readily come by-- if not in the public library, in paperbacks preferably not too long out of print. Here's what I've come up with, and would welcome further suggestions. For instance, I remember seeing a SF/F cat anthology I lack data on. Poul Anderson: OPERATION CHAOS A. Bertram Chandler: THE INHERITORS Cynthia Felice: GODSFIRE Robert Heinlien: THE DOOR INTO SUMMER Fritz Leiber: THE GREEN MILLENIUM Clive S. Lewis: THE CHRONICLES OF NARNIA Anne McCaffrey: DECISION AT DOONA Patricia McKillip: FORGOTTEN BEASTS OF ELD Andre Norton: BREED TO COME CATSEYE EYE OF THE MONSTER JARGOON PARD ORDEAL IN OTHERWHERE STAR MAN'S SON/DAYBREAK-2250 A.D. UNCHARTED STARS and THE ZERO STONE YEAR OF THE UNICORN <"Beauty and the Were-Cat"> ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jun 1981 0832-PDT (Thursday) From: Heath at UCLA-ATS (Frank Heath) Subject: The Right Stuff I have just completed Tom Wolfe's book "The Right Stuff", and I highly recommend it. It is about the X-1, X15 rocket planes and the original Mercury astronauts. The title and the theme of the book relate to a quality supposedly possessed by all the hot military and test pilots. It seems to be a combination of macho, bravery, massive ego and superior flying skills. It is good reading and very humorous in parts. It fills in the background for events which I remember growing up with, i.e. the first satellite and manned launches and the space race. Also you can see why NASA got so fanatical about all astronauts being pilots for so long. No one else could possibly have had the "Right Stuff" to handle it otherwise, despite the fact that in most of the early missions the astronauts couldn't have flown the thing if they wanted to. Wolfe's style of writing is exaggerated to say the least and could easily have distorted the reality of the situation. Does anybody know of any other good references or experiences to give more opinions on the topic? Frank S. Heath ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 1981 1737-PDT From: Jim McGrath Subject: Capsule Movie Reviews (c) 1981 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service) ''Excalibur''-John Boorman directed this version of the Camelot legend. It's wonderful to look at, but the characters are maddeningly arbitrary and unexplained. Nicol Williamson (witty and fun as Merlin), Nigel Terry, Helen Mirren, Nicholas Clay and Cherie Lunghi star. Rated R. 2 1/2 stars. ''The Hand''-Science-fiction thriller stars Michael Caine as a cartoonist whose hand transplant goes awry. It's silly enough not to be frightening, but notobe enjoyable. With Andrea Marcovicci. Rated R. 1 star. ''Knightriders''-George (''Dawn of the Dead'') Romero's new movie is the Camelot story on motorcycles. ''The Legend of the Lone Ranger''-The masked man's life story stars Klinton Spilsbury and, as Tonto, Michael Horse. Rated PG. ''Outland''-Sea Conery stars in this science-fiction thriller, set in a mining colory on Jupiter's moon, Io. With Peter Boyle, Frances Sternhagen, Kiki Markham. Rated PG. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jun 1981 12:10:09-EDT From: deryl at CCA-UNIX (Deryl Humphrey) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #139 In response to your message of Thu Jun 4 11:10:11 1981: One can usually find copies of scripts in a number of places. 1) Fan clubs 2) nostalgia stores or husters at conventions 3) The Drama bookstore in NYC 4) The film studio The price will range greatly and availability is scarce. -deryl@cca-unix ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 3 Jun 1981 21:26-PDT Subject: More on Mr. Bass From: obrien at RAND-UNIX Like everyone else, I've been vastly enjoying the nostalgia discussion, and like everyone else, it's been reminding me of things I enjoyed more than any reasonable person should. It now occurs to me that Margaret Cameron's Mushroom Planet series was the first SF I ever read, back in second grade. Well, I decided to do everyone one better by not just remembering how great it was, but by going out and trying it again at the age of 32. I was very pleasantly surprised! I just read "A Mystery for Mr. Bass", which, to be fair, I had never read before, and found it quite acceptable. Ms. Cameron obviously is a fan of Welsh mythology and people, which I had not remembered, and this lends the book a very pleasant air. The series is dated, sexist, and strictly for the childish of mind, but I still have to say I enjoyed it. A much better experience than one has any right to, in re-reading childhood favorites. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jun 1981 0737-PDT Sender: GEOFF at SRI-CSL Subject: Another Saturday Cartoon. From: the tty of Geoffrey S. Goodfellow When I read Lauren's message about drugs in cartoons, it reminded me of another one: Super President. (he could change himself into any substance), Perhaps with the aid of a drug? ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 4 Jun 1981 10:13-PDT Subject: Correction From: obrien at RAND-UNIX To correct my message yesterday to the digest: "Margaret" -> "Eleanor" How embarrassing. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jun 1981 1545-PDT From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE Subject: favorite rare sf poll ****************** FAVORITE RARE SF POLL PART 2 ****************** At last! (sorry for the delay) here is the second part of the poll of your favorite obscure science fiction and fantasy. How to vote: all the works are labelled below as Ax or Bx, x integer, A for book length entries and B for shorter works. For each entry you can vote on obscurity and quality. Obscurity: 0 -- never heard of it (except on the sfl rare sf discussion). 1 -- heard of it. 2 -- read it. 3 -- many of my friends have read it, too. Quality: Use a scale of 1 (terrible) to 5 (excellent). Important: the default for Obscurity is 0, so you don't have to vote A2 0 if you've never heard of A2. A vote of "A4 0,5" means you saw A4 mentioned on sfl, read it, and thought it excellent. People who submitted entries \should/ vote for them, but do not need to repeat their comments, (e.g. "Shook my belief in reality"), which will appear in the poll results. Additional comments are welcome . We do have publishing information on almost all the entries and will include it in the poll results. ******* SEND YOUR VOTES TO SF-RARE@MIT-AI WITHIN ONE WEEK ******* A1) Chester Anderson // The Butterfly Kid (forms a trilogy with A74, A126) A3) Baker // The Garden of the Plynck A5) J. G. Ballard // The Crystal World A6) " " // The Overloaded Man A10) T.J.Bass // Half Past Human A11) T.J. Bass // The Godwhale A15) Alfred Bester // Starburst (especially the story Oddy and Id). A17) Fredric Brown // "Angels and Spaceships" A20) John Brunner // A Planet of your Own A22) Anthony Burgess // The Wanting Seed A24) G.K. Chesterton // The Ball and the Cross A25) " " // Tales of the White Horse A26) " " // The Club of Queer Trades A28) M. Collins // Lukan War A30) Michael Coney // Syzygy A31) Michael Coney // Brontomek! A34) Authur byron Cover // Autumn Angels A35) " " Cover // An East Wind Coming A40) Samuel R. Delaney, ed. // Quark 1,2,3,4 A42) Thomas M. Disch // Camp Concentration A44) Finney // Circus of Dr. Lao A45) Finney // The Unholy City (includes The Magician out of Manchuria). A46) Finney // The Ghosts of Manacle A48) Randall Garrett (pub as Darrel Langert) // ANYTHING YOU CAN DO. A50) Mark Geston // Out of the Mouth of the Dragon A51) " " // The Lords of the Starship A52) " " // The Siege of Wonder A54) Philip E. High, in general A60) Hubbard // Return to Tomorrow A64) William Johnston // Get Smart books: `And Loving It', A65) Sorry Chief, A66) Missed it by That Much'. A68) M.K.Joseph // The Hole in the Zero A70) Walter Karig // Zotz A72) Damon Knight // Hell's Pavement A74) Michael Kurland // The Unicorn Girl A76) R A Lafferty // Space Chantey A78) Keith Laumer // The Great Time Machine Hoax A80) Harold Livingston // The Climacticon A82) Angus MacVicar // SUPER NOVA AND THE ROGUE SATELLITE A84) Ellen K. McKenzie // Taash and the Jesters A86) Hope Mirrlees // Lud-In-The-Mist A88) Ward Moore // Bring the Jubilee A89) Ward Moore // Greener Than You Think A90) H. Warner Munn // Merlin's Ring A91) " " // Merlin's Godson A92) John Myers Myerson // Silverlock A94) Elizabeth Pope // PERILOUS GARD A96) John Rackham // The Double Invaders A98) Eric Frank Russel // The Great Explosion A100) Arthur Sellings // THE POWER OF X A101) Arthur Sellings // THE UNCENSORED MAN A102) Sellings, in general A105) Olaf Stapledon // The Flames A110) Leon Stover and Harry Harrison, eds. // Apeman, Spaceman: Anthropological Science Fiction A112) Theodore Sturgeon // Some of Your Blood A114) Dan Thomas // The Seed A116) Ruth Plumly Thompson // Jack Pumpkinhead of Oz A118) Jack Vance // The Many Worlds of Magnus Ridolph A120) VerCours // And Ye Shall Know Them A122) Alexander Volkov // The Wooden Soldiers of Oz A124) Per Wahloo // Murder on the 31st Floor A126) T.A. Waters // The Probability Pad A128) A.T. Wright. // Islandia B1) A.C. Clarke //'The Transit of Earth' B2) Larry Niven // "The Magic Goes Away" in its original novella-length version. (\Not/ the version published in paperback) B3) Theodore Sturgeon // "The Man Who Lost the Sea" B4) Sturgeon // "Maturity" again, send your votes to SF-RARE @ MIT-AI. --cat ------------------------------ JPM@MIT-AI 6/5/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last in the digest. While concentrating on the topic of Sex in Star Trek, it reveals details about the plot development in the episode entitled "The Doomsday Machine." Those unfamilar with this episode may not wish to read any further. ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 1981 11:27:31-PDT From: C.dasilva at Berkeley Subject: Sex in star trek Forwarded from Dan'l Oakes. Re: Sex in strek The \UNQUESTIONABLE/ dirtiest strek episode of them all is Norman Spinrad's "The Doomsday Machine" -- the perfect blend of sex and violence. Norman deliberately infused this apparently-innocent episode with every bit of Freudian psychosexual symbolism imaginable. Consider: The planet eater itself, viewed sidelong, is the ultimate phallic symbol; viewed head on, it is a classic \vagina dentata/. The other captain (the lesser male) attempts to ram his ship down the thing's maw (fuck the thing) and dies trying. Kirk (the dominant male) succeeds, with the following resultant event-chain: -- The people on the Enterprise are trying to beam him back on board. -- The shuttlecraft rams into the thing's maw. -- In a side view that looks remarkably like a male orgasm, the thing ejaculates white stuff which we assume to be flames (In a vacuum ???). -- The Enterprise crew \finally/ succeeds in beaming kirk aboard: his hair is disshevelled, he's sweating hard. No doubt if he turned around (he doesn't), we'd see fingernail-scratches on his back. Is this or is this not the dirtiest strek ? ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 6-JUN "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #142 *** EOOH *** Date: 6 JUN 1981 0912-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #142 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Saturday, 6 Jun 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 142 Today's Topics: SF Books - The Right Stuff, SF Movies - Here's the Plot,What's the Title & Script query answered, SF Topics - Children's TV (Underdog and Rocky and Bullwinkle and Jay Ward Productions and Courageous Cat and Minute Mouse and Crusader Rabbit and Ruff and Reddy and Duck Dodgers and Violence in Cartoons) & Children's stories ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 Jun 1981 14:22:52 EDT (Friday) From: David Mankins Subject: re: the right stuff Rusty Schweichart (nth person to walk on the moon, Skylab astronaut, and California's Energy Secretary) reviewed "The Right Stuff" in Coevolution Quarterly about a year ago. He said the book "felt right," and that Wolfe had done a good job of capturing the atmosphere of the early NASA days. By the way, those of you who haven't picked up Coevolution Quarterly should. Last issue reprinted a large portion of the AI jargon file, the issue before that was "The Next Whole Earth Catalog" (that's right, the whole thing) and several issues ago they published an entire issue devoted to Gerard O'Neill and his space colonies. It tends to be lots of fun, since the editor is interested in Neat Things. Anyone interested in details like their address can send me mail. dm@bbn-unix ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 81 0:07-PDT From: mclure at Sri-Unix Subject: here's part of the plot, what's the title? I remember seeing a film quite a while ago which starred Lloyd Bridges as a man desperately trying to evade some bad guys in his dreams... the dream sequences involved Bridges being pursued through large factory complexes at night with large gas flames burning throughout the plant. That's about all I remember, but it's pretty vividly imprinted in my mind. Anyone know the name of the film? ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 1981 14:45:47-PDT From: ARPAVAX.ghb at Berkeley Subject: Movie scripts (not to buy, but at least to look at). In the LA - Hollywood area, a good source for looking at movie scripts is the library of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences. The AMPAS library is located in their headquarters building in Beverly Hills (I forget the address, sorry, it's been a while since I was there). The library is open to anyone, but has rather odd hours, so I recommend calling first. I know they have copy machines, so you can copy stuff. Another good source would be UCLA or USC film libraries, although I haven't ever used them, so I can't make any specific recommendations. Hope this is of some help to someone. -- george bray ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 1981 00:15:01-PDT From: CSVAX.dmu at Berkeley Subject: WOW Lauren, you are amazing. Your message about old shows shook out mental cobwebs I didn't know I had! Could someone tell me more about ASIFA? Maybe others on the list would like to know, too. David Ungar ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 1981 1119-PDT (Friday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: Underdog For the record... The reporter was Miss Polly Purebred. The villain was Simon Bar Sinister. IT'S A BIRD! IT'S A PLANE! IT'S A FROG! A FROG? NOT BIRD NOR PLANE NOR EVEN FROG, IT'S JUST LITTLE OLD ME ... UNDERDOG! --Lauren-- ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 1981 0605-PDT From: Lynn Gold Subject: Cartoons 1) The evil scientist in Underdog was Simon Barsinister, if I am correct. [ Thanks also to Peter (f at Berkeley) for sending in a reply to this query. -- Jim ] 2) I remember Boris (Rocky and Bullwinkle) Badanov; was Natasha's last name the same? 3) Does anyone know the name of the girl in the Good-and-Plenty commercials with Choo-Choo-Charlie? --Lynn ------------------------------ Date: 5 June 1981 2101-EDT (Friday) From: Lee.Moore at CMU-10A Natasha's last name was "Nogoodnick". ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 1981 00:11:54-PDT From: CSVAX.dmu at Berkeley Subject: Natasha's last name was Fatale!! Is there a TPTP (Trivia Point Transfer Protocol, not what you think) for sending me my 17 points? David Ungar ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 1981 08:48:26-PDT From: f at Berkeley Subject: J Ward Enterprises. Apparently still exists, and supposedly has agents in Disneyland with the following recognition sign: "That's something you don't see every day Chauncey", "What's that, Edgar ?" "A Flying Bull Moose in a bathrobe (?)" "Oh I don't know, Edgar". Also if at the top of the Matterhorn you shout "Hooray for J Ward Enterprises" the whole structure is supposed to shake and give you a MUCH more interesting (scary) ride. They sell all sorts of R+B Trivia items, as well. -- Peter. ------------------------------ From: EGK@MIT-MC Date: 06/01/81 02:08:17 Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #124 Does anyone remember Courageous Cat and Minute Mouse? They lived in a Cat Cave and whose guns could do more tricks than were in Felix's bag. Anyone remember The Frogs name? How 'bout Crusader Rabbit and Rags?? -- Edjik ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 1981 09:50 PDT From: Weyer at PARC-MAXC Subject: more cartoons two more series come to mind (apologies if these have already been mentioned in previous megabytes of SF lovers) Ruff and Reddy -- cat and dog, I think. several of their shows were about extraterrestrial creatures from "Muni-mula" (aluminum spelled backwards). in a another series (the name of which I forget, but if I had to guess I'd say something like Willie Winkie), the heroes got into trouble at various times and you got to stick your magic transparent screen on the tv screen (probably not too safe radiation-wise), and draw in various aids, for example, ladders, shields, etc. needless to say, as soon as I mailed away for my magic screen and received it, they discontinued the show. somewhat reminiscent of Fahrenheit 451 (at least the movie version), where tv programs were participatory. Steve ------------------------------ Date: 06/05/81 1622-EDT From: THOKAR at LL Subject: A correction and more Warner Brothers First a correction to Thursday's Digest: DUCK DODGERS -- in the 24&1/2 Century!!!!!! ------ Speaking of WB cartoons, Mel Blanc did (does?) the voice over on most of them. For anyone who has watched them lately, they have been badly mutilated. As RODOF (Bob?) mentioned, cartoons must have most of the violence removed from them now-a-days. Unfortunately this includes the Road-Runner "classics," which leads to very choppy story lines. (Pun somewhat intended.) No longer does Wiley E. Coyote splatt on the bottom of a seemingly endless canyon. Sigh -- for the lost days of mispent youth. As for my vote for the all time best cartoon: DUCK AMUCK One of the funniest cartoons ever scripted. Luckily it can still be seen at SF cons. Usually shown to a packed and cheering house. Tanstaafl, Greg P.S. For those who don't remember, Duck Amuck is about Daffy Duck's problems with an illustrator who keeps changing the scene -- and Daffy. ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 1981 11:12:57-EDT From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: bookworms Let's hear it for weird kids who raid libraries! I misplaced this habit for a few years when I was living in areas where there wasn't much of a library, but picked it up again when I went to boarding school, where I was severely bored (sorry . . .) for a variety of reasons. The school had an arrangement with the central country library, a marvelous old granite and sandstone pile that looked as if it should have had bats flying out of and around it and skeletons in the dungeons, that students could take out books for assigned papers; it took me over two years to persuade an English teacher to let me do a paper on SF, so in the meantime I persuaded the library to let me buy a card like any out-of-towner from within the county and took out a bicycle-load of books (~12) every Saturday. ------------------------------ From: TRB@MIT-MC Date: 06/05/81 09:42:24 Subject: Re: Violence in Cartoons RODOF@USC-ECL explains that cartoonists today are severely restricted by no-violence rules. I grew up in the Bronx, and I really don't think that we Bronx kids of the sixties, who were weaned on imaginative TV, were nearly as violent as the Bronx kids are today, who watch trash all day. Maybe they're so rebellious because they're fed garbage all day, gigo, did you ever consider that? If you believe that the reason that old cartoons are better than new cartoons is violence, well, you're mistaken. We've been doing a lot of reminiscing in this space recently, and I haven't heard anyone say that they miss the old cartoons because they were violent. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 1981 at 1052-CDT From: clyde at UTEXAS-11 Subject: Fond video memories. Fie on those naysayers who have forced our cartoon writers and artists into producing electronic pablum for the kiddies consumption!! Perhaps I'm not quite normal, but those 'toons I enjoyed the best (and still am willing to get up at 8:30 Saturday morning for) are those Chuck Jones Warner Brothers Bugs Bunny/Daffy Duck/Sylvester and Tweety/ Roadrunner cartoons which feature the 'villian' getting mangled in 20 different ways within the space of 3-5 minutes. Even as a kid, I knew that I couldn't stop a freight train with my hand, or could survive the hundred-foot falls that Wile E. Coyote took with such frequency. Gone are those days where the good guys could beat the living crap out of the baddies (or the baddies would beat the crap out of themselves -- a favorite thing for Elmer Fudd and Mr. Coyote to do). Now we must be "non-violent", "show alternatives to conflict", and other such well-intentioned but blanderizing things. Sigh. Why does it always seem that the best things in popular culture always have been in the past? I hate think of these rug rats growing up and being nostalgic about "The Drac Pack" (or some other such pseudo-animated teen-identification junk), perhaps never to have seen a few good Rocky and Bullwinkle 'toons or laughed as Sylvester bites the dust under the pile driver while trying to swing over to Tweety's cage so he can EAT the little birdie, (of course). I guess that's what happens when you "grow up"...... ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 7-JUN "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #143 *** EOOH *** Date: 7 JUN 1981 0213-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #143 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Sunday, 7 Jun 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 143 Today's Topics: SF Fandom - Awards & APAs, SF Books - Fantasticats, SF Topics - Children's TV (Winkie Dink and You and Planet Patrol) Compu-fiction & Children's stories (Jane Langton), Humor - "About a Secret Crocodile" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 6 Jun 1981 12:44:32-EDT From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Hugos To say that Hugo awards are "at the whim of the con committee" is no longer anywhere near correct. A committee can give special awards (e.g., St. Louiscon (1969) gave Armstrong/Aldrin/Collins an award "for the best moon landing ever", and I'm working on lobbying the Denvention II committee for a similar award for Young&Crippen) but for the past several years concoms have specifically been forbidden to call these awards Hugos. A concom can include \\one// additional category, which must go through the same process of nomination and balloting as the rest of the Hugos. (One such tried to use this as a mechanism for giving a Hugo to Tolkien, offering the RingS as an example of a "series"; nominees included the Lensmen and the Foundation trilogy, which won.) The problem is that it would be easy to exhaust the worthwhile series if this were made permanent (look at what happened to the Gandalf (Life Master of Fantasy), which is about to be banned from the Hugo ballot); mechanisms for non-annual awarding could be very painful. As it happens, SFWA already has a Life Master award for SF; I think past winners include Heinlein, Williamson, and Simak, all of whom are a long way past their primes. If there's anyone seriously interested in this, I'd suggest they draw up a proposal and knock it around a while. I would \\not// suggest trying to get it into the Denver business meeting; they'll have enough problems with pass-on business and you'll probably get a much better motion if you pass it around some people who know the history of the Hugos. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 1981 23:55:40-PDT From: decvax!duke!unc!bch at Berkeley Subject: cats in sf As a true cat-lover (almost more than an sf-lover) I cannot help but respond to this: (1) Larry Niven's Kzinti (known space series) may not be the most flattering image of cats, but are remarkably accurate representatives of feline psychology (predatory, but not seriously; always making war just a little bit before they are ready to; immensely proud with great dignity and always a little embarrassed at a show of extreme pleasure or emotion...I always wondered why Wu didn't dangle a rubber ball on a string in front of one.) (2) The artificially evolved cat-people in Cordwainer Smith's stories, notably Alpha Ralpha Boulevard. Many more, many more...just have to get back to my library to get authors and titles correct. purringly, Byron Howes ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 1981 1145-PDT Sender: LEAVITT at USC-ISI Subject: Cats in sf From: Mike Leavitt Do the cat-people in Cordwainer Smith's stories count as being of interest to a cat club? ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 1981 23:51:11-PDT From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley Subject: Purr-fect SF Phyllis Eisenstein also has a race of cat-like aliens, though the title escapes me at the moment. It might have been "Starcats". ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 1981 23:52:32-PDT From: decvax!duke!unc!bch at Berkeley Subject: Purr-fect SF Don't think I have read that. I am also trying to remember the name and author (possibly Laumer) of a short story about a kitten who can't figure out why dumb babies grow up to be intelligent humans (and drink coffee!) and lively intelligent kittens grow up to be dumb lazy cats. Is convinced that he won't do this but along the narration somehow has to give up his kitten-soul to the child in order to protect it. ------------------------------ Date: 4 June 1981 01:37 edt From: Schauble.Multics at MIT-Multics Subject: Postal APA for cartoon lovers Since there seem to be such a large number of cartoon fans around: There exists a postal apa for animation buffs. This is presently circulated by mail every other month. (For those used to SF-Lovers, this interval is comparable to the reversing of the magnetic poles.) There will be a membership limit of about 30, but there is presently space. If you have an interest, type up a contribution of at least one page (no upper limit), make 30 copies of it, and send them to ApaToons c/o Gigi Dane 3433 W. Sierra Vista Phoenix, AZ 85017 Deadline for the first mailing is July 9, 1981. Future deadlines at two month intervals. For those who aren't familiar with postal apa's, I will let Ye Ed dredge up the last explanation that went through here and insert it [ OK, I'm caught. APAs are Amateur Press Associations. The members of the APA all submit some contribution (usually having something to do with the purpose of the APA, like Science Fiction or animation buffs - however, a lot of biographical material and random (although often enjoyable) noise is also submitted). Some poor soul then goes through the mush and orders them into an issue of the APA, adding appropriate editorial comments (mainly restricted to administrative matters), and mails out an issue to each member of the APA. Variations on the same theme: some APAs (like the one Paul refers to) require you to send enough duplicates of you contribution for all the issues that are to go out. Others only require an original. Some editors of the APAs charge the members (for time, postage, supplies, and duplicating costs, if any), while others are silly enough to do it out of love. Some APAs come out weekly, but usually new issues come out monthly or so. -- Jim ] Paul ------------------------------ Date: 6 June 1981 14:27 edt From: Margolin.PDO at MIT-Multics Subject: Winkie Dink The name of the cartoon which had viewer participation was "Winkie Dink and You". Our heroes would get into trouble with bad guys, and we could save their asses. The only situation I remember is them being stuck in a pit, so the viewer had to draw a staircase or a rope or something. They were then able to climb out and get the bad guys. ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 1981 2037-EDT From: Antonino Mione Subject: 1960's Sci-fi. I am trying to find someone who remembers something about a series called 'Planet Patrol'. It was done with puppets similar to those in 'Fireball-XL5'. I do not remember the names of the characters. All I remember is the ship which they used to travel throughout the solar system. It was similar to any cylindrical rocket but it had a doughnut shaped tube around this rocket. It landed on a platform similar to the one which the Millenium Falcon lands on in TESB. An access arm was used to enter and exit from the ship. Does this sound familiar to anyone??? Tony: ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 1981 1137-PDT From: LEWIS at SRI-AI (Bil Lewis) Subject: "Compu-fiction" As I remember, at the West Coast Computer Faire there were some people pushing some sort of computer based fiction story that allowed the user\\\\reader? to stick in their two-bits worth and redirect the story. Anyone out there know more about this? There is method to my madness here, as some of us are going to meet with a gentleman from a large publishing firm next week that is interested in exploring the possibilities. Now I have a good idea of the general type of things that are possible, but would love to her what others think. Full text generation from some sort of formal schema is out of course (See Mann & Moore in AJCL V7 N.1. They cover the work of Badler, Meehan, Schank, Carbonell, &c.). Thus we can't pretend to use AI, but are rather stuck with writing out all of the text ourselves and using "clever programming". The real question is "How clever can that programming be?" Ideas? -Bil ------------------------------ Date: 1981-5-20-12:59:39.71 From: Martin Minow at PHENIX at METOO Sender: Paul Young (YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO) Subject: Jane Langton Mysteries -- re: Morris Keeshan's comment in issue 122 Jane Langton has written three murder mysteries that I know of, all HIGHLY recommended. Two of them, The Transcendental Murder (also called The Minuteman Mystery), and The Memorial Hall Murder are currently available in paperback. All of her books are enjoyable and highly literate. The Transcendental Murder is set in Concord Mass. during Patriot's Day festivities. Among other things, it suggests a love affair between Thoreau and Emily Dickenson. The second book, Dark Nantucket Noon, concerns a murder that takes place during an eclipse of the sun. To say more would spoil the ending, but SFL readers should enjoy it. Check your local library. The Memorial Hall Murder is set in Harvard's Memorial Hall during rehearsals for an annual performance of Handel's Messiah. The first two were featured on WGBH's "Reading Aloud" about two summer's ago. Regards. ------------------------------ Date: 19 May 1981 13:51:35 EDT From: Ralph Muha Subject: time and tin cans ... They fed the problem to the computer by pieces and by wholes. The machine was familiar with their lingos and procedures. It was acquainted with the Non-Valid Context Problems of Morgan Aye and with the Hollow Shell Person Puzzles of Tony Rover. It knew the Pervading Environment Ploy of Maurice Cree. It knew what trick-work to operate within. Again and again the machine asked for various kinds of supplementary exterior data. "Leave me with it," the machine finally issued. "Assemble here again in sixty days, or hours--" "No, we want the answers right now," John Candor insisted, "within sixty seconds." "The second is possibly the interval I was thinking of," the machine issued. "What's time to a tin can anyhow?" [from "About a Secret Crocodile" by R. A. Lafferty] ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 8-JUN "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #144 *** EOOH *** Date: 8 JUN 1981 0654-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #144 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Monday, 8 Jun 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 144 Today's Topics: SF Fandom - DENVENTION and L-5, SF Books - Fantasticats, SF Movies - Raiders of the Lost Ark & Film query (The Adventures of Mr. Wonderbird) SF TV - Star Trek Guide & Rocky and Bullwinkle Guide, SF Topics - Children's TV (Winky Dink and You and Colonel Bleep and The Big World of Little Atom and Fireball XL-5) & Compu-fiction & Children's stories (The Three Investigators and Spaceship Under the Apple Tree and Here's the Plot,What's the Title) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: POURNE@MIT-MC Date: 06/04/81 03:27:43 Subject: DENVENTION and L-5 The L-5 Society will be having a big presence in the Denvention, with booth and parties and the like. OMNI will be working with us, as will some aerospace companies. Those who would like to help--we'll need people for the booths and for hospitality and for lotsa other stuff, such as assisting Rotlser who'll be doing badges for new recruits and decorating badges for old hands--and some authors who will autograph books ONLY at the L-5 table--and like that-- Anyway if you would like to help, make contact with Tom Morgan and Jane Campbell, 40 West Fair Ave., Littleton, COLO 80120, 303-797-8342 and offer services. For those tiny few who don't know what a Denvention is, it's the World Science Fiction Convention held over Labor day Weekend, in Denver. [ Specifically, Denvention will be held in the Denver Hilton from September 3 till September 7. Please see the Convention Calendar for specific details. -- Jim ] ------------------------------ From: LEOR@MIT-MC Date: 06/07/81 04:34:24 Subject: Purr-sonal reminiscence of purr-nicious feline in short story I may have read many stories involving cats (and their derivatives), but one really GOT me. It was called "Fluffy", by PKDick, from "Golden Man." If you're the type who KNOWS deep down that those damn hair-shedders are nothing more than demonic manifestations, you'll just LOVE this story... -leor ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jun 1981 1036-EDT From: PDL at MIT-DMS (P. David Lebling) Subject: Smart Kittens -> Dumb Cats "Spacetime for Springers" by Fritz Leiber. Leiber has written a lot of "cat stuff." Another example is "Wanderer," whose heroine is Tigerishka, a felinoid star-traveller. ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jun 1981 11:38:41-EDT From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: bch@berkeley's cat story In response to your message of Sun Jun 7 02:58:20 1981: is Fritz Leiber's "Space-Time for Springers"; it has been reprinted a couple of times. (Those of you who are continually looking for book printings of short stories are encouraged to get Contento's index.) I believe it is the first of a small group of stories dealing with a [kitten] named Gummitch (or something similar and equally improbable). Most of the later stories were undistinguished and have not been reprinted. I question the comparison of Terran cats with Kzinti; I feel that Kzinti were created by someone who doesn't like cats. There is no indication of actual playfulness in any of the Kzinti (beyond Speaker's fondness for having his ears scratched, which is a pretty slim analogy) and most cats have more patience than the Kzinti---in particular, Speaker's declaration that Louis Wu's challenge was excessively verbose ("A simple scream of rage is sufficient." Louis: "You scream and you leap. Great.") is far short of the elaborate formalities of Terran cats about to battle. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 1981 2309-PDT From: Zellich at OFFICE-3 (Rich Zellich) Subject: Raiders of the Lost Ark Just caught a sneal of RotLA - it's a definite must-see. Maybe some of the effects could have been done a little better, but the whole things a gas - funnier 'n hell (and because it's supposed to be, not because it's so bad it's funny). ------------------------------ Date: 5 June 1981 2251-edt From: Paul Schauble Subject: Episode guides for Star Trek and Rocky & Bullwinkle One of the people who reads SF-Lovers over my shoulder asked about episode guides for Star Trek and for R & B. I think that if these don't exist, they should. Judging from the conversations recently, there are people out there who have the data handy. Anyone care to get those flying fingers in action and produce something we can FTP?? ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jun 1981 0531-PDT (Sunday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: misc. comments and a query Here we go... The program where you would draw on your television screen to "aid" characters was called "Winky Dink and You". Luckily, at the time the show aired, few people had color televisions, so the radiation risk was not as bad as it COULD have been. Still... not a great idea to play around so close to the screen. Probably almost as bad as using a modern "touch-with-your-finger" type CRT! Personally, I refuse to use color CRT terminals close-up for long periods... --- Remember Colonel Bleep? This was a "minimum animation" type cartoon, largely consisting of still frames. The Colonel (who was some sort of alien who always wore a fishbowl type space helmet) operated from "ZERO ZERO ISLAND". He had two "pals", -- Squeak, who was a puppet (and I believe often wore a cowboy hat), and Scratch, who was a caveman. This program is so obscure I can hardly remember it -- the only plot I can recall involved Squeak and Scratch having helmets locked on their heads that turned them into zombies of a sort -- the work of the Colonel's enemies. --- In this same era we come to two programs which occasionally bordered on SF. The first is "Spunky and Tadpole". This animation paired a boy (Spunky) with a bear (Tadpole). Don't ask me to explain it. I believe it was episodic. It also has faded deep into the mustier regions of my brain, where few dare to tread. The second show is "Herjay's Adventures of Tin Tin". Tin Tin was a boy who had a number of non-SF type adventures in his various episodic segments -- but one series of shows had him on a rocket to Mars. These shows were later re-edited (much to my surprise) into a feature length film, which actually runs on television occasionally. --- One program that lies on the boundary between entertainment and education involved a pair of (live action) boys who take a rowboat ride down a river in some basically metropolitan area. They pass through a tunnel, and when they come out the other side, discover they are millions of years back in time, and moving rapidly farther back as they move farther down the river. The show involved their seeing various animals at different stages of evolution as they moved deeper and deeper into the past with each episode. Eventually, in a somewhat unclear segment, they reach the "creation" of the Earth as a molten mass in the Big Bang. It is unclear what happens to them at this point (at least to my memory) -- but I believe there was some implication that they looped back around in cyclical time. --- Gee, here's one that's pretty obscure! How about "The Big World of Little Atom?" This animated program taught science facts in the guise of entertainment. Anyone remember? --- And now, a query. For years I have been trying to locate a print of a film/TV show that nobody but me seems to remember -- a bad sign to say the least! The film version was called "The Adventures of Mr. Wonderbird", I believe. It was later broken up into many episodes and aired on television under the name "The Shepherdess and the Chimneysweep". This was an animated feature, involving a shepherdess who was being held prisoner by a king. A chimneysweep was trying to rescue her, with the help of a strange bird -- Mr. Wonderbird. The element of this film that made it so fantastic was the technology that this king had at his disposal. He lived in a tremendous mechanized palace. He was continually dropping enemies down trap doors that would appear beneath them at the pull of a lever or the push of a button. He had a fantastic transportation system for getting around the castle, and a large robot which also was important to the plot. It has been years since I have seen it, but I remember it very fondly. Any information about where it might be hiding -- such as who produced it, would be appreciated. Even someone else verifying that THEY remember it would make me feel a bit better. Thanks much. [ Please send any information about this film directly to Lauren, not to SF-LOVERS. -- Jim ] --Lauren-- ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jun 1981 (Sunday) 0637-EDT From: SHRAGE at WHARTON-10 (Jeffrey Shrager) Subject: The mechanics of Winky Dink Firstly, one was asked to purchase a special clear plastic mat that was taped to your TV screen and included a set of water soluble markers. W.D. was mainly a line drawn cartoon and on occasion the main character would say... "Ok, boys and girls, now, trace that door over there so that I can escape." Then they would pause for little jeffy to trace the door on his mat in erasable marker (or on the TV screen in indelible black marker if mommy hadn't bought a mat for him -- clearly the entire point of the show was to get the parents to buy these things) and after a reasonable interval the screen would shift and "lo and behold!" the door appeared on the once bare wall by virtue of its having been traced on the mat. This was actually quite clever on several counts...(1) the obvious cleverness of the design of the system, (2) the marketing strategy of providing an extra income to the program (who was, I'm sure, getting some percentage of the mat profits), (3) the writers didn't have to do much work... most of the show was pauses to draw and erase the mat. Another technique that I count as quite clever along the same lines as the Winky Dink mat is the little teaching machine that looks like a robot and houses an eight-track cassette. Now, I had always considered 8-t a useless pursuit until I saw this thing.... On t-1 they ask a question that has several possible solutions and then ask the listener to choose the correct solution from one of the "answer" buttons labeled A,B,C,D. How clever-- of course, the "answer buttons" were the track selectors and the track that had the right answer said "very good" and then played some music while all the other tracks were catching up with an error report and detail explanation of the correct answer. One of the neatest things about that is that, since 8-ts are continuous loops, you can do all sorts of clever q-a mapping from one tack to the next. Actually, I have to think about this some more to see whether it is really capable of having simultaneous questions on the different tracks. ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jun 1981 (Sunday) 1904-EDT From: PLATTS at WHARTON-10 (Steve Platt) Subject: Compu-fiction In regards to the user-input fiction story... I seem to recall a similar device at the '64 World's Fair (NYC) using segmented motion pictures ("movies"). After every few minutes, (at a possible split in the plot,) the audience was allowed to vote on which course of action to take (binary choices). The trick was, rather than having 2^n movie segments, was to have the two courses after choice reconverge to a common next-decision. Thus, only 2*n movie segments were needed. -Steve ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jun 1981 0926-PDT (Sunday) From: Mark at UCLA-SECURITY (Mark Kampe) Subject: theme to Fireball XL-5 Mike Urban, knowing of my strange tastes and talents asked me to submit this to you - saying that you had been searching for it. I may have missed a final verse, but I am fairly certain that these are the first two verses of the fireball XL5 theme song. The person who relayed the question also gave me a bonus problem (far more difficult) that being the theme tune to "clutch cargo". I offer only an attempt at that. Now, without further adieu.... I wish I was a spa-a-ace man, I wish that you were too. We'd cruise around the universe, together, me and you. Chorus: Through a wonder-world of stardust, We'll zoom away to mah-ahrs.... My heart would be a fireball... (doo-doo-oo-doo) a fireball... And you would be my venus of the stah-ah-ahrs We'll take a trip to Jupiter, and maybe very soon, we'll cruise along the milkyway and land upon the moon Chorus Clutch Cargo, however, was a far more difficult problem. I remember the rhythm and harmony, but the melody was quite illusive (and of course I know it was instrumental). The rhythm was quite simple 4/4 - moderate _ _ _ _ _ | | | |_ |_ | | | | | O O O O O played on bongo like drums with the last two notes struck on a drum tuned about 1/4 higher than the first three The harmony was more an (american) indian like tune played on a wood flute. I have a pretty good memory of it, but I can't write music without a keyboard in front of me - but it might have been _ _ |_ _ _ _ _ _ |_ _ _ _ | |_ _ _ _ _ |_ |_ |_ | | |_ |_ | O | |_ _ |_ |_ | | | | | O | | | O |_ |_ |_ | | O O O O O O O O |_ O O O O My memory on the melody is not good, but I seem to recall that it was also played on a wood flute (about 1/2 octave lower) and that it started with the harmony and then danced around scales while keeping the same rhythm - but no bets on that. ---mark--- ------------------------------ Date: 17 May 1981 15:17-EDT From: "Kenneth W. Haase, Jr." Subject: The Three Investigators Ah! Fond remembrances! The Three Investigators were three high school kids (one an abnormally precocious one) who started their own detective agency based in the precocious ones uncles junkyard. They had Alfred Hitchcock as their more-or-less mentor, whom they hardly ever saw. It was a neat series with all kinds of "kids show up adults" scenes in it. Louis Slobdkin's stories about the "spaceship under the apple tree" also strike a familiar bell. It was about an alien boy who lands on a farm and becomes friends with a terran boy, joins the boy scouts etc; Fun reading. Does anyone out there remember a series of short stories about a group of boy scouts who find a time machine behind a rock fall and have a lot of fun traipsing through the ages with it. There are some really nice scenes in them, like life in an underwater farm, or an obnoxious boy-king's visit to the twentieth century.. Anybody remember who wrote them? Ken Haase ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 9-JUN "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #145 *** EOOH *** Date: 9 JUN 1981 0451-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #145 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Tuesday, 9 Jun 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 145 Today's Topics: SF Fandom - APAs, SF Books - Fantasticats & Tin-Tin, SF Movies - Raiders of the Lost Ark, SF Topics - Compu-fiction & Children's TV (Warner Brothers and The Thunderbirds and Merry Marvel Marching Society's and F.A.B. query and Courageous Cat and Colonel Bleep and Larriat Sam and Rocky and Bullwinkle) & Children's stories (Spaceship Under the Apple Tree) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 Jun 1981 11:44:33-EDT From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: apa description is a bit inaccurate; I don't know anyone to whom you can send a true original (as opposed to a cut stencil or typed ditto master) without money for xeroxing and expect to produce a finished zine. With no exceptions that I know of, each member of an apa is responsible for assuring that a sufficient number of copies of hir contribution is produced. There's also an unclarity in the remarks about editorial comments; I don't know anyone who has gotten away with putting such remarks on people's contributions. [ The editorial comment reference in the original description of APAs was made in a context that implied that the comments were upon the issue as a whole (and mainly administrative), not individual contributions. Also, the description separately discussed duplication of contributions and possible costs of belonging to the APA. Many APAs will accept simple originals (although then there is usually a charge for xeroxing, as chip points out), while some will demand X number of copies. Sending ditto masters is frequently the cheapest thing to do all around (if the APA in question is set up to handle then of course). The best strategy to follow if you wish to join an APA is to first find out all their requirements and discover whether membership is open at this time (some APAs are so popular that contributing membership is restricted, although you can usually purchase copies of the APA). -- Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 8 June 1981 21:35-EDT From: Brian J. Kreen Subject: Cats and SF Another book dealing with such beasties (lovable though!) is Decision at Doona, where humans meet 8' tall walking and talking feline "people." Decision at Doona Anne McCaffrey Ballantine Books, 1969 ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jun 1981 at 0100-CDT From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ MISCELLANY ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ RE-- cats: Thanks to all who sent suggestions. Cordwainer Smith's works were the overwhelming majority of the nominees. The kitten-story recalled by BCH at Berkeley is Leiber's "Spacetime for Springers". It couldn't help but make a cat lover puddley around the eyeballs. As for cat-lovers in the \other/ sense, I would recommend the Catteni spaceman in McCaffrey's short story, "The Thorns of Barevi". (SF-Lers familiar with "...Barevi" will surely forgive the pun, as the story itself is almost one in narrative form.) RE-- SILVERLOCK: The author's (middle AND) last name is Myers. Saw a note in LOCUS a while back to the effect that some 30 years after the original, he's done a sequel. Hoo-raaaaaaaaay! RE-- Compu-fiction: Aha! Reality is catching up with SF. We've come across a couple fiction-writing machines in the CYBER-SF project. Off hand I recall the "wordmills" in Leiber's THE SILVER EGGHEADS, and the heroine in Compton's THE UNSLEEPING EYE worked at Computabook. ------------------------------ From: RP@MIT-MC Date: 06/08/81 08:19:13 Subject: Raiders of the Lost Ark I agree with Zellich, ROLAids is a super winner. We (+kids) found this to be the most entertaining film since TESB. Superman II will have serious competition. ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 7 Jun 1981 20:18-PDT Subject: Review: Raiders of the Lost Ark From: mike at RAND-UNIX Screening of Raiders of the Lost Ark, Saturday, June 6th. Directed by Steven Spielberg. Lucasfilm, Ltd production. This is a non-spoiler review. Don't let anyone spoil this movie for you: don't read the book, leaf through the magazine, color in the coloring book or any of the other ways you could spoil the movie. JUST GO SEE THE MOVIE, and be surprised. Don't be a fool! Go see this movie as soon as it opens! Go see it twice. Seeing this movie the first time was as fun as seeing Star Wars the first time. And I don't say that lightly. Raiders of the Lost Ark is an adventure film of the old cinematic school: the romantic setting is not outer space but a far-away jungle or desert, the villains are not Storm Troopers from the Empire, but Nazi's from Germany. Our heroes don't use the force, just good ol' American pluck and spirit. They drink their whiskey straight, too. So does Lauren Bacall, er, whatever the name of the heroine is. Supposedly the inspiration for the film comes out of the Saturday morning serials that used to run in the theatres for a nickle. Does anyone know what these might be? I suppose the original Flash Gordon fits into this mold. The Action is continuous! The Danger immense! How can our Hero Survive? Will Paramount's stock Double? NOT FOR THE SQUEAMISH: Warning to parents of very small children: many of the images in the movie are strong. Maybe strong isn't the right word. Maybe TERRIFYING is the right word. The woman next to me in the theatre cringed continuously. As Indiana Jones said peering into a sacred crypt where-man-was-not-meant-to-be, "Snakes. Why did it have to be snakes?" Michael Wahrman ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jun 1981 1617-PDT From: Craig W. Reynolds from III via Rand Subject: do it yourself movie editing Forgive me if this has recently been mentioned, but the discussion of movies with audience decision branch-points brings to mind the "Aspen Project" of the Architecture Machine Group. This was (is) a "movie map" of the town of Aspen Colorado. It is based on optical video disk and midi-computer networks. The user sits in front of a color video monitor which is touch-sensitive (Lauren's favorite) on it you see a view down a street in Aspen, you press the GO button and your point-of-view starts to move down the street (images coming sequentually from the disk). When you come to an intersection, you can continue straight through or turn to the right or left. Usually any of these choices involve hopping to some other part of the disk to fetch the pictures for the street you are turning onto. By using two disk drives (with two copies of the same disk) the idle one can be prefetching the "most likely" branch for the next intersection. In this manner the user can "drive" all over the city, without any real restrictions. One way to look at this is a movie which is always edited on the fly by each viewer, this leads to any number of possible "drives" (or plotlines, if you prefer). Craig ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jun 1981 1448-PDT From: CSD.BOTHNER at SU-SCORE Subject: Tin-Tin comic books and films The creator of Tin-Tin was Herge, not the abomination Lauren called him. @digression [I think there is an accent aigu over the final e - aigu means sharp or accute which is the angle it makes with the direction of reading. The other one is an accent grave - someone mixed them up in a recent message. ] Tin-Tin is primarily a comic book, and Herge is part of the French- Belgian comic book culture. Tin-Tin has starred in at least a dozen of the big glossy comic book which are so typical in Europe. Tin-Tin's adventures weren't really all that exciting, but the books' big win is the supporting cast of eccentric friends and helpers. ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jun 1981 1958-PDT From: First at SUMEX-AIM Subject: WB Cartoons The best cartoons ever produced (both technically and plot/clever-idea-wise) were the WB cartoons produced in the 40's and early 50's under the names "Looney Tunes" and "Merrie Melodies". These cartoon lasted 8 (9??) minutes and took about 9 months per cartoon to create. The artwork and detail in a typical Bugs Bunny cartoon of this era rivals the best work from Disney-- each frame was drawn separately, and complete orchestral scores were written and recorded for each cartoon. With the escalating costs of production and the advent of computer-controlled animation (SIGH!!--maybe the vast improvement in computer-graphics in recent years will reverse this--I hear Lucasfilm is experimenting with full-screen animation which is totally generated by a computer), this type of meticulous animation is only a thing of the past. Besides the technical superiority, the story-lines of these cartoons were nothing less than brilliant. The main reason for this was that the audience for these cartoons was in fact adult--they originally appeared before feature films in the 40's (now all we get is Woody Woodpecker--does anybody really LIKE those damned things?) and were therefore targetted for adult tastes (unlike Jay Ward which targetted for adults but still had to deal with the reality that these cartoons were being screened for kids). Besides Bugs Bunny/Daffy Duck/Elmer Fudd/Tweety and Sylvester/ Foghorn Leghorn/Tasmanian Devil/Yosemite Sam/Wile E. Coyote, etc, there were also some excellent cartoons of mice appearing as Abbott and Costello, Jack Benny, the Honeymooners, and other film characters of the day, often with the real actor's voices (Like Laugh-in, Sat. Night Live, etc., it was hip to appear in a WB cartoon satire). Those Bugs Bunny cartoons on Saturday are often repackaged/re-edited cartoons from the 40's. When they use newer animation, it really pales in comparison. I saw Mel Blanc give a talk recently (after the talk, which is interspersed with WB cartoons, there is a Q&A session where he "takes requests", i.e. "Mel, could you do Bugs saying "What a moroon!"") He did say that they (WB) are considering doing those 8 minute pre-feature-film cartoons again!! Although I don't think they will ever be able to be done with the same care that went into those gems... --Michael P.S. For a reasonably good anthology of these cartoons, "Bugs Bunny Superstar" and "The Bugs Bunny/Road Runner Movie" are good, but they only contain the standard WB characters. The weirdest thing of all to see are certain Bugs Bunny cartoons done in the early forties which were meant to support the war (i.e. Bugs in the army, Bugs encouraging the audience to enlist, etc). These are not seen too often although the local UHF station would consistently screen these for the kiddie afternoon shows! ------------------------------ From: KARIM@MIT-MC Date: 06/08/81 09:25:47 Subject: Lauren's zero-zero island, thunderbirds, etc. Hmm. I thought "ZERO ZERO ISLAND" was the turf of "Dodo, the Kid from Outer Space". Anybody remember this? Lauren? In case you don't know, Zero-zero Island was supposed to be the one place on the globe where there was zero latitude and zero longitude. Is this place really on water, and is there an island there (or did they expect the kids to be that stupid...evidently I am)? Another bit: someone mentioned a few days ago, or hours (or is seconds the unit of time I'm looking for? How's a sentient tin can supposed to know, anyway?) something they used to say on "Captain Scarlet" -- S.I.G., I think it was. The used to say F.A.B. on that wonderful show, "The Thunderbirds". Now that is really driving me up a wall. Meanings, anybody? In case you don't know, Home Box Office (for those of you with cable of satellite dishes) has been and is showing, that Gerry and Sylvia Anderson Classic (yes, "U.F.O.", "Space: 1999") "Thunderbirds to the Rescue". For a few laughs, don't miss it. I would say more, but I was supposed to be at work sixty days ago (or minutes, or seconds...sigh). -Karim ------------------------------ From: TRB@MIT-MC Date: 06/08/81 11:17:14 Ah, do I remember Courageous Cat and Minute Mouse. They had a real hep theme song with a standing bass. The catmobile comes out of the cat cave on the edge of town trailing smoke. The story was always called something like "The Case of the Missing Jewels." Courageous was courageous, and Minute was a wimp, always getting in trouble, like Robin in Batman. Their archenemy was the Frog (see?) and Courageous had the gun which did outrageous things. My favorite recollection of Colonel Bleep was an enemy of his called "The Black Knight of Pluto." I thought that was clever, right up there with "Vassa, Queen of the Sea," who was the Submariner's enemy on the Merry Marvel Marching Society's tv show. MMMS was neat, they showed Iron Man, Thor, Captain America, Hulk, Spiderman too, if I rightly recall. Please, please, does anybody remember, on Captain Kangaroo, there was a cartoon called Larriat Sam. His sidekick/horse was Tippy Toes. His archenemy was Bad Lands Meany. What was Bad Lands Meany's sidekick's name? I can't for the life of me remember, and I've never met anyone who has. I've been asking people for years and years, I haven't yet sunk so low as to write to Bob Keeshan. I know this isn't SF, so sorry. [ Please respond diretly to TRB@MIT-MC on this query, not SF-LOVERS. -- Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 7 June 1981 0228-EDT (Sunday) From: Lee.Moore at CMU-10A Subject: Natasha's last name I still claim her name is Nogoodnick. It is the same sort of alliteration as Boris Badenoff. (spelling doesn't count) (also a pun on a certain Russian Czar...) Any debate? Lee Moore ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 1981 2131-PDT From: Friedland at SUMEX-AIM Subject: trivia and SF books I noticed that the two common answers "Fatale" and "Nogoodnick" were given for Natasha's last name on R&B. The former is actually correct, although the confusion arises because Boris often used the latter to refer to her affectionately. Peter ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 1981 06:05:07-PDT From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley Subject: The Spaceship Under the Apple Tree I remember it well! It was about an alien visitor, age 11 Earth years (they allegedly measure age in light years -- *sigh* -- but I guess that's no worse than the Millenium Falcon being able to make the Kessel run in under 12 parsecs) and his new-found human companion, also 11. The alien had a spool of wire that powered his space ship, his gadgets, and his shoes, but this spool had somehow gotten lost. And when it was found, it was found at the bottom of a pond -- ruined. Fortunately, his friend's grandmother had snipped off a piece to mend a screen door, so he had just enough. One classic scene was where the alien and his friend (I don't remember either name) went fishing. The alien, with his quick reflexes, was able to reach in and grab fish. The human complained that he was supposed to catch fish on a hook. So, after he grabbed another fish, he stuck the hook through its tail. "Me catch fish on hook." Hiking with him wasn't any fun either: he'd just set off in a straight line towards the destination, walking over obstacles such as houses and haystacks, and walking under ponds. Obviously, a major part of the action was an attempt by the human to teach him Earth customs without letting on to his grandmother just what was going on. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 10-JUN "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #146 *** EOOH *** Date: 10 JUN 1981 0721-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #146 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Wednesday, 10 Jun 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 146 Today's Topics: SF Books - Fantasticats & Tin-Tin, SF Movies - Outland, SF TV - Star Trek Guide, SF Topics - Compu-fiction & Computer Animation & Children's TV (F.A.B. query and Rocky and Bullwinkle) & Children's stories (Query answered and Tom Swift and Homer and Spaceship Under the Apple Tree and Richard Purtill and Mary Renault) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 9 Jun 1981 11:00 EDT From: Marshall.WBST at PARC-MAXC Subject: cats in sf I cannot resist touting Cordwainer Smith's cats in "The Game of Rat and Dragon". This is a delightful story about mental combat between cats and human partners on one side and mental dragons on the other. The cats in this story are real cats and act very feline. There is also a cat planet in "The Crime and the Glory of Commander Suzdal" but the cats are not as feline. If anyone has not read all of Smith's Science Fiction I suggest they do so. The author sketches entire civilizations and societies with only two or three sentences. His universe is vast but we are permitted only small glimpses of it. Unfortunately when he died in 1966 his science fiction only filled four books: Quest of the Three Worlds Norstrilia The Best of Cordwainer Smith The Instrumentality of Mankind The first two are novels and the last two are collections of short stories. I believe he left notes for future sf stories but I don't know if they will ever be published. --Sidney ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jun 1981 00:04:08-PDT From: CSVAX.wildbill at Berkeley Subject: SF felines The Leiber story mentioned in a recent SFL is "Space-Time for Springers". Another Leiber story involving cats is the fifth book in the Fafhrd-Grey Mouser series, "The Swords of Lankhmar". Cats play a very important role in this story. Another Cordwainer Smith story in which one encounters cats qua cats is "The Crime and Glory of Commander Suzdal", in which the Commander uses a time-warp device and a hypnosis device capable of implanting racial goals (i.e affecting the memories of descendants as well as the originally hypnotized beings) on a pair of cats to extract himself from a particularly nasty situation. Yours in the ancient and honorable society of felinophiles, Bill Laubenheimer ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jun 1981 11:35:27-PDT From: Cory.5 at Berkeley Subject: Kitten Anthologies Here are a few anthologies of kitten stories for you, viz.: 'Kitten Caboodle' edited by Barbara Silverberg 'Supernatural Cats' edited by Claire Necker Yours ever so, John R Blaker (Cory.cc-13@Berkeley) ------------------------------ Date: 9 June 1981 1818-EDT From: Steven Clark at CMU-10A Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #145 Someone mentioned computers that write fiction. Remember in 1984, the fiction was written by computer. I know of a short story about a grey cat that spotted an alien that was transparent to humans. Can anyone remember the author/title? The title had "grey" in it ("All cats are grey"?). -Steve ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jun 1981 1748-PDT From: Craig W. Reynolds from III via Rand Subject: Computer Animation First@SUMEX-AIM is correct in saying that "Lucasfilm is experimenting with full screen animation which is totally generated by computer", but it is rumored that other groups are also barking up that tree. I'm not sure just what the first theatrical use of computer generated animation was, but at least back around '74 there was "Westworld" and later "Futureworld", both of which had computer generated and computer image processed scenes (by III and some stuff from U of Utah). The last feature we worked on was "Looker" which is due to be released in early July. This includes lots of computer generated stuff (some of which is supposed to look like "computer graphics" and some which is supposed to look real). One unique sequence is the "scanning room" where "Cindy" (Susan Dey) is being encoded by the evil computer company, in the control room we see the computer displaying the evolving models it is building of her body. Remind me to tell you how we got the 3D coordinate data for her body ... We are currently working (along with MAGI-Synthavision and NYIT) on the Disney/Lisberger production of TRON. This film will be a combination of computer animation, hand animation, optical image processing ("the Bob Able look") and live action. Only about 10% is live action. While the plot of TRON may be hard for hackers to take (its about computers, and so computer hackers will get picky about the details of the fantasy plotline) it looks like it will be very striking visually. Craig ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jun 1981 20:08 PDT From: TManley.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Episode guides for Star Trek I have an Episode guide to Star Trek, but it would be a rather large document to set up for FTP. But if anyone is interested, I will research the publisher and see if they are still available. \TMP. . . ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jun 1981 10:22 PDT From: TManley.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #144 I have more on that Star Trek Guide: "Star Trek Concordance" Copyright 1979 by Paramount Pictures Corp. Author BJO Trimble Library of Congress Catalog Card Number: 76-9778 First Edition 1976 Published by Ballantine Books/New York \TMP. . . ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jun 1981 12:57 PDT From: Woods at PARC-MAXC Subject: Episode guide for Star Trek I have a Star Trek episode guide that I put together N years ago with help from my fellow Trek-watchers in college. I consider this guide a win in that the plot descriptions tend to avoid spoilers. I'll get around to typing it in sometime soon unless some eager beaver wants to beat me to it. -- Don. ------------------------------ Date: 8 June 1981 09:54-EDT From: James M. Turner Shade and Sweet water, The stories dealing with boy scouts using a time machine that Ken Hasse was looking for appeared in Boy's Life, not on TV. Other than suffering from that banal morality that BL applies to everything, it wasn't that bad. One story I remember used the idea of raiding SF during the earthquake so no one would notice (this is post-"Flight of the Horse"). Quick though on "Outland". If those are the best hired killers in the system, why do they fall for such obvious tricks? They are obviously familiar with survival on the moons of Jupiter (they didn't get shipped in from Earth) so why were they walking around in shirt-sleeves when the safest thing would have been to put their suits on...I guess they don't make hit men like they used to... James ------------------------------ Date: 10 June 1981 02:25-EDT From: Steve Strassmann Subject: The official Boy Sprout Mag: Time Machines & Tripods The short stories about a bunch of kids who find a time machine behind a rock were written (as far as I remember) for Boy's Life in the late 60's and 70's. The group that found the machine was a patrol (for folks who weren't/aren't Boy Scouts, a patrol is a unit of 4-8 kids in a troop of ~12-80) of modern scouts who went and picked up a Spartan kid from ancient Greece, a bald kid from the n+1th century, and I believe a cave-kid. These kids actually stayed in their home-whens ; the patrol leader only picked them up when they were needed. The time machine possessed an event scanner which allowed the pilot to scan an area (in X,Y,Z, and T) without having to materialize the machine. Does anybody remember the author? Some hardcover anthologies of these stories were published, I think. Boy's Life just recently started serializing Christopher's trilogy about people controlled by aliens ("tripods") via metal skullcaps ( I believe two of the books were "The White Mountains" and "The City of Gold and Lead") in cartoon format. I think I remember their cartoonizing in the past, among other things, excerpts from the Bible and a Heinlein story. Steve Strassmann ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jun 1981 13:06:12-PDT From: IngVAX.kalash at Berkeley Subject: S.I.G. on Captain Scarlet S.I.G. stands for "Spectrum Is Green" they used the expression to indicate that everything was alright. When they used S.I.R. (Spectrum is Red), it meant that something was very wrong. Joe Kalash ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jun 1981 1227-PDT (Tuesday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: Tin Tin, Dodo, and animation I have never claimed to be a French comic book fan (... just a minute ... just a minute ... Did I really just say that? How about French postcards? Oh never mind, you know what I mean... ) -- so I apologize for mispelling the name of Tin Tin's creator. As for that "Dodo" kid from outer space... I've never heard of him, and I've had "zero-zero island" sloshing around in my brain pans for years .. so I am pretty sure it's from Colonel Bleep. By the way ... In my opinion, the finest animation ever done, overall, was that for "Snow White and the Seven Dwarves". Shadows under EVERYTHING throughout. Absolutely perfect. --Lauren-- ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jun 1981 0144-EDT From: JHENDLER at BBNA Subject: Rocky and moose *sigh* imagine my disappointment in discovering that during the past two weeks when I was out of town NO ONE ELSE chastised Lauren for his error concerning the Kirwood derby. I have checked with many of my R&B Fan friends, and they point out that the Yale Film Society presented an R&B night last year, and featured the Kirwood Derby episode. Sure enough, the derby makes the wearer incredibly SMART not childlike, as Lauren mistakenly claimed. An interesting side note to my search for the truth about the Derby: Apparently Dirwood Kerby (remember him?) SUED the show for lible and won a large settlement!!! Some people have no sense of humor-- --Jim ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 1981 11:45-EDT From: Steven C. Bagley Subject: Star War's revelation Did you know that Darth Vader's wife is named Ella? ------------------------------ Date: 1981-5-11-17:55:29.53 Sender: Paul Young (YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO) From: STEVE LIONEL at STAR at METOO Subject: Children's SF Ah, the memories of childhood, filled with that mind-rotting science fiction. I can still recall the day when I was 8 (18 years ago) when my mother, a loooong-time SF fan, presented me with my first Tom Swift, Jr. book. By the way, no one so far has mentioned that there WAS a Tom Swift Sr., a much older series of books from which the term "a Tom Swift" came from. What is "a Tom Swift"? It's when you use an adverb that relates to the topic of the statement. For example: "What sharp teeth you have," he said bitingly. "I'll do it tomorrow," he said lazily. and so on. Mentioned in passing was "Spaceship Under the Apple Tree". This was either a sequel or prequel to "The Three-Seated Spaceship" (sequel, I think), by . The stories told of a small alien who dressed in seersucker suits and who transported some friendly kids around the Earth seeing the sights. Does anybody have more info on these? Previously mentioned in SFL is the absolutely delightful "Space Child's Mother Goose" by Fredrick Winsor. I found it in Books in Print last year, but I haven't been able to locate a copy. (I haven't tried too hard, I'll admit.) My all-time favorite from this is: Flappity, floppity, flip The mouse on the moebius strip The strip revolved The mouse dissolved In a chronodimensional skip Of course, I fondly recall Danny Dunn, and I recently picked up three of the stories just to refresh my memories. Sort of a cross between Danny Dunn and Tom Sawyer was Homer, of "Homer and the Donught Machine", "Homer and the Unplayable Record", etc. Also, how about Encyclopedia Brown? Remember him, and his bodyguard-girlfriend Sally? It's a shame that the impact of stuff like Star Wars is probably going to dramatically alter children's SF away from the likes of Danny Dunn and more towards "Luke Skywalker Comix". Luckily, the old stuff is still around. Steve Lionel ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 1981 08:04-EDT From: Steven C. Bagley Subject: more walking down memory lane Hey kids, don't forget about "The Mad Scientists Club" and the various Encyclopedia Brown stories, all from Scholastic Book Services. ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 15 May 1981 10:30-PDT Subject: Richard Purtill vs. Mary Renault From: obrien at RAND-UNIX The one thing that struck me about "The Golden Gryphon Feather" was that Richard Purtill must have been a big fan of Mary Renault, who did that stuff much better in all of her books set in Classical Greece. The styles are very similar, though Renault is much more mainstream and does not involve such heavy elements of fantasy. For a completely different look at Crete there's always "The Age of Wizardry", by Jack Williamson. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 11-JUN "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #147 *** EOOH *** Date: 11 JUN 1981 0827-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #147 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Thursday, 11 Jun 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 147 Today's Topics: SF Books - Dream Park & Fantasticats & Tin-Tin, SF Movies - Clash of the Titans, SF Topics - Science in Science Fiction & Children's stories (Boy's Life Time Machine) & Children's TV (Dodo the Kid from Outer Space and Rocky and Bullwinkle and Traffic Zone and Teen Titans and Beanie's Cecil the Seasick Sea Serpent) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 1981-6-3-12:57:56.05 From: AL LEHOTSKY at METOO Sender: YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO Subject: Dream Park by Niven and Barnes I just got my SF Bookclub copy of Dream Park and want to respond to some earlier gritching in SFL on the book. pico-review: Couldn't put it down... nit-picking: When I first started reading DP, I had a lot of skepticism about the economics of running a disneyland and fantasy-gaming park at such low rates (10^2 $/day), but barring that single nit, the story hangs together fairly well. As a mystery story, it is a flop, there aren't enough clues to figure whodunnit. But as a "sword-and-sorcery" novel, I really liked it. I also wish that it was about 100 pages longer. It really should of had additional "puzzles" for the gamers to solve. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jun 1981 1451-EDT From: RICHARDSON Subject: SF cat stories For : What about the short story (Heinlein, probably) about the cat who has kittens in someone's spacesuit? The unsuspecting owner gets the shock of his life when, while out in space, a small furry thing touches him! Doesn't anyone else remember flatcats? That is probably also Heinlein, maybe Asimov -- something I read a long time ago. What about the "cattails" on Ringworld? I think Kzinti make fine cats -- remind me of my own two felines. /CLR ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jun 1981 1454-EDT From: RICHARDSON Sender: YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO Subject: SF Lovers cats query (more stuff) Anyone out there want to write new short stories rather than dig up obscure ones? I always thought that what my two cats (JFCL, the no-op cat (enormous black and white female meatloaf) and Coalsack Nebula (black, half-Siamese)) needed is: 1) vocal chords, and 2) opposing thumbs. ------------------------------ Date: 10 June 1981 10:13-EDT From: David Vinayak Wallace Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #146 The story about the invisible alien which cat's could see was, I believe, an Andre Norton, with a title like 'Queen of the Spaceways', or somesuch. The hero was an out-of-work space captain who goes to salvage (loot) an old derelict with some old lady; she is...I won't spoil it, but this might make you remember. As for the boy scouts with the time machine, they were also published in novels, I belive, as I was never a boy scout, I never read Boy's Life. The thing that impressed me at the time was that I read them in ~1973, when I was ~9-10 yers old; the books I read forecast great wonders for the far future age of 1976! Teaching machines, the daily rocket to africa, etc.... Has anyone read a book in which the predictions for the future are reasonably accurate? I'm just reading Gernsback's 'Ralph 124C 41+' which forecasts such marvels as travelling from Paris to New York in only 12 hours... The main problem with it is that the characters act like they were born in 1900, not 2600. Unfortunately, most stories like this have the same problem. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 1981 0957-PDT From: Achenbach at SUMEX-AIM Subject: Time machine, boy's life et al I can remember from back in my days as a Boy Sprout that Boy's Life ran several SF stories from time to time. E.g. "Wind from the Sun" by Arthur C. Clarke first appeared in BL (this was a story about a regatta in space, using solar wind and mylar sails). Also there was a series about a troop of boy scouts on a generation ship aimed somewhere out in space. I can only remember one scene of a patrol taking a quarter mile hike outside the ship in space suits to fulfill the requirement for the hiking merit badge or some such. Then of course there was the time machine stories. As a matter of fact, a novel of the time machine was published, which covered the discovery, a few adventures, and the origin of the time machine. It came from the future, and was hijacked by a couple of badies, who the patrol meets. I know I bought that book, but I can't find it. I guess it's buried with all the other relics of that time in my life (Tom Swift Jr books, Hardy Boys, etc.) By the way, my entry for the best animation is Pinochio. Much better than Snow White. /Mike ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 1981 11:02:30-PDT From: E.jeffc at Berkeley Subject: No science in science fiction ? At least, that's what a magazine article that I recently read claimed. No doubt that many of you out there are already gaping at your terminal screens in disbelief, and this provides an excellent opportunity for this digest to stop talking about kiddy shows and start talking about science fiction. In any case, I am willing to play the devil's advocate and set forth the arguments which this article used. (I don't recall the name of the magazine right now.) The main premise is this: science fiction attacks the belief that the universe is knowable to man. SF, of course, has plenty of gadgets and devices and other sorts of technology, but SCIENCE??? Let's take the example of a story which uses a hyperspace drive for interstellar travel. OK, so the story assumes its existence, and it is used. Why is that science? How does the drive work? How is the conflict with the fact that nothing can go faster than light resolved? What are the physics behind it? Often, when there is an attempt at explaining how the drive works, matters only get worse. For example, the conflict with the speed of light is resolved by simply stating that while in hyperspace, you are not in this universe, and therefore such laws do not apply. When stories deal with alternate universes and fancy stuff like that, this type of reasoning gets carried to the extreme. Science is not the process of making up arbitrary rules. Now, some of you might point out at this time that science fiction is science FICTION. True, and that is a handy excuse for completely disregarding what we KNOW about the universe today, and to come up with something totally arbitrary, and justifying it by simply saying that it's a piece of fiction, and therefore it doesn't matter. Some of you might say: aha! I caught you! What we KNOW about the universe today is not what we will know about it tomorrow. That is absolutely correct. Science is the process of discovering the lawful ordering of the universe, and it is inevitable that in the future, someone will come up with something that will supersede what we know today. Is science, as thus defined, present in science fiction? Or is there merely at lot of gadgetry that is not and cannot be explained by anything we know today? That is merely the passive side of the problem. A lot of science fiction actually encourages anti-scientific thought, such as that written by H.G. Wells. So that this letter does not get excessively long, I will continue with that in another letter tomorrow. To conclude. Even for a person who completely agrees with the arguments presented, there is still the question, "why all the big fuss? I like reading science fiction and it really doesn't matter to me that there is no 'science' in it." For us, that's probably true. None of us, as far as I know, have been "damaged" in any way by reading science fiction, but what about the kids who read this stuff? They are rather impressionable, and if they get the idea that science means a lot of gadgets for which there is no explanation, or that a lot of phenomenon in the universe, such as hyperspace, are simply unknowable, then what are the implications? Jeff ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jun 81 18:59-PDT From: mclure at Sri-Unix Subject: Clash of the Titans ripoffage Just saw a commercial for Clash of the Titans and almost fell back in my chair when I recognized the film score that they were playing during the commercial; it was a number of extracts from the excellent score by Carmine Coppola for The Black Stallion from last year. What sort of ripoff is this? I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who goes to see the film on whether the score in the film is the same as the one in the commercial. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 1981 12:40:35-PDT From: Cory.cc-13 at Berkeley Subject: Tintin First off, that's Tintin, not Tin-Tin. Here are the few titles that I can come up with off the top of my head: 1 Secret of the Unicorn 2 Red Rackham's Treasure 3 The Crab with the Golden Claws 4 Tintin in Tibet 5 Destination Moon (Pure Science Fiction) 6 Explorers on the Moon (These two sparked my interest in SF) 7 Tintin in America 8 The Broken Ear 9 The Seven Crystal Balls 10 Prisoners of the Sun 11 Tintin and the Picaros 12 Cigars of the Pharoah 13 King Ottokar's Scepter 14 Flight 714 15 The Shooting Star 16 The Calculus Affair 17 The Castafiore Emerald 18 The Black Island 19 Land of Black Gold 20 Tintin in the Land of the Soviets 21 Tintin in the Congo I have all but the last two on the list, and there are probably others. Some of the characters are Major Characters in several books: Tintin:---------Our hero boy reporter Captain Haddock:Wealthy(In later books) former sea captain, and Tintin's companion (A heavy drinker) Professor Cuthbert Calculus:Deaf (and daft) inventor and scientist Thompson and Thomson:Incompetent Detectives Nestor:---------Captain Haddock's butler Bianca Castafiore:Milanese opera singer. Powerful lungs Rastapopoulos:--Arch villain Minor Characters (Or pivotal to only one or two books: Jolyon Wag:-----Typical insurance salesman General Alcazar:Deposed South American Dictator General Tapioca:His rival (now in power) Lazlo Carreidas:"The Millionaire Who Never Laughs" Skut:-----------Esthonian pilot Captain Chester:Friend of Captain Haddock Yours ever so, John R Blaker (Cory.cc-13@Berkeley) P.S. Someone looking over my shoulder tells me that "Herge" is a pen name based on the French spellings of the written out form of the letters "R" and "G", apparently the initials of the real name of the author. JRB P.P.S Also, since these were all originally published in French, the names of many of the characters are different. Professor Calculus is Professor Tournossol (or something like that). The Thompson and Thomson were originally Dupon and Dupond. JRB ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 1981 1145-PDT (Wednesday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: The Derby Actually, I did get one piece of direct mail claiming I was wrong about the Derby, but I dismissed it as the ravings of a deranged person (it takes one to know one? Never mind...) I will accept the concept that I might be wrong on this one -- I suppose the Moose put on the Derby and got real smart, or some such. One of the nice things about having 3000+ people reading this stuff is that there is always somebody who can correct any errors. At least, I *THINK* that's one of the nice things?! Back to my cage... --Lauren-- ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 1981 1505-PDT From: Lynn Gold Subject: Derwood Kirby What ever happened to him, anyway? --Lynn ------------------------------ From: KARIM@MIT-MC Date: 06/10/81 09:05:44 Subject: Yes, Virginia, there is a "Dodo" Honestly now, I wasn't kidding! Anyone else remember "Dodo, the Kid from Outer Space"? Maybe I'm getting something else mixed up, but I thought that was the title of a show...I even remember part of the theme song. Hard to forget, it was. This was aired in NYC, around the mid-60's. Anyone? -Karim ------------------------------ Date: 1981-6-9-02:18:22.40 From: PAUL WINALSKI at METOO Sender: YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO Subject: Saturday morning memory dump The continuing discussion of old cartoon favorites really brings back some fond memories.... One of the things I find fascinating when I think back to those cartoons is how many of the jokes are aimed at grownups and just whizzed right over my head. Take, for example, the Traffic Zone episodes of Hoppity Hooper and Waldo Wigglesworth. The Traffic Zone was an extra-dimensional space where really strange things happened. It could only be detected in the real world by sound; when Hoppity was near the entrance to the Traffic Zone, he would hear car horns honking and police whistles. I think you entered the Zone via a traffic light. You could only enter the Zone when it was green. As I recall, Hoppity and/or Waldo got caught there when the light changed to red. Anybody remember Tom Terrific and Manfred the Wonder Dog (who was almost as depressive as Marvin from HHGttG) from Captain Kangaroo? Tom lived in a tree and was capable of several marvelous things. Recurring villains were Isotope Feeney and Crabby Appleton (rotten to the core). And who can forget Saturday Morning's contribution to real SF? Time for Beanie's Cecil the Seasick Sea Serpent is cited as the reason why Niven's aliens are named Pierson's Puppeteers. There was also an episode on Beany & Cecil that featured two rabbits, an iron-pumping father and his brainy son, who used to get into all sorts of fixes and were pulled out of the mess by "brains, not brawn." ------------------------------ Date: 1981-6-9-02:20:55.08 From: PAUL WINALSKI at METOO Sender: YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO Subject: Aquaman/Aquaboy Aquaboy bears the same relationship to Aquaman as Robin does to Batman, Speedy to the Green Arrow, Kid Flash to the Flash, and Wonder Girl to Wonder Woman. Aquaboy was his teen sidekick. The five of them (Aquaboy, Robin, Speedy, Kid Flash, Wonder Girl) made up the Teen Titans. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 12-JUN "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #148 *** EOOH *** Date: 12 JUN 1981 0817-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #148 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Friday, 12 Jun 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 148 Today's Topics: SF Movies - Capsule Movie Reviews & Raiders of the Lost Ark, SF Books - Fantasticats, SF Topics - Science in Science Fiction & Children's TV (Dodo the Kid from Outer Space and Beanie's Cecil the Seasick Sea Serpent) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 11 Jun 1981 2133-PDT From: Jim McGrath Subject: Capsule Movie Reviews By Chicago Sun-Times Reviews (c) 1981 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service) ''Clash of the Titans''-Laurence Olivier plays Zeus in this spectacular fantasy. Maggie Smith, Claire Bloom, Ursula Andress and Susan Fleetwood also star. Rated PG. ''Outland''-''High Noon'' on the moon, this uncompromising science-fiction thriller stars Sean Connery, Peter Boyle and Frances Sternhagen. Rated PG. 3 stars. ''Raiders of the Lost Ark''-Harrison Ford stars as an adventurer looking for the Ark of the Covenant in this new George Lucas production, directed by Steven Spielberg. Rated PG. ''Screamers''-Science-fiction thriller about a mad scientist on a remote island. Barbara Bach, Joseph Cotten and Mel Ferrer star. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 1981 1158-PDT From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE Subject: RotLA, another view We had a sneak preview of Raiders of the Lost Ark here a little while ago. As others have said, it's non-stop slam-bang action. I think I empathized too much with the villains, though. In one scene a baddie is pounding the hell out of Indiana Jones, the hero, when he gets caught in an airplane propeller and chopped to bits. We're meant to take a gruesome delight in his destruction, but I felt nauseated. Five minutes before this guy was just moseying along and now his brains are all over the pavement. In "Star Wars" you had (literally) faceless enemies, and it didn't matter so much. They were just robot dolls to knock down. Here they scream when killed. It's getting tough, I know, to find sufficiently unsympathetic bad guys. Nazis are about as close as you can get in modern times. You can't even use yelling savages anymore; in an early part of the movie they make it clear that the yelling savages pursuing our hero have been duped by the fiendish French archaeologist. Even Nazis, though, have wrinkles and bald spots, and most of them are just doing their job. If they become more than just tenpins to be knocked out of our hero's way, then you start to feel it when they get run over by trucks or pushed off cliffs. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 1981 2138-PDT From: Jim McGrath Subject: Raiders of the Lost Ark [ The following review of Raiders of the Lost Ark is not quite a spoiler, although it is comprehensive. Note that this movie opens today throughout the nation. -- Jim ] By VINCENT CANBY c. 1981 N.Y. Times News Service NEW YORK - From the first moments, when the star-circled mountain in the Paramount Pictures logo fades into a similarly shaped, fog-shrouded Andean peak, where who knows what awful things are about to happen, ''Raiders of the Lost Ark'' is off and running at a breakneck pace that simply won't stop until the final shot, an ironic epilogue that recalls nothing less than ''Citizen Kane.'' That, however, is the only high-toned reference in a movie that otherwise devotes itself exclusively to the glorious days of the B-picture. To get to the point immediately, ''Raiders of the Lost Ark'' is one of the most deliriously funny, ingenious and stylish American adventure movies ever made. It is an homage to old-time movie serials and back-lot cheapies that transcends its inspirations to become, in effect, the movie we saw in our imaginations as we watched, say, Buster Crabbe in ''Flash Gordon's Trip to Mars'' or in Sam Katzman's ''Jungle Jim'' movies. The film is the result of the particularly happy collaboration between Steven Spielberg, its director, and George Lucas, who is one of its executive producers and who, with Philip Kaufman, wrote the original story on which Lawrence Kasdan's screenplay is based. As Lucas's ''Star Wars'' helped itself to all sorts of myths, folk tales and characters from children's fiction and fused them into a work of high originality, and as Spielberg's ''Close Encounters of the Third Kind'' made sweetly benign a kind of science-fiction film that had turned paranoid, ''Raiders of the Lost Ark'' refines its tacky source materials into a movie that evokes memories of movie-going of an earlier era but that possesses its own, far more rare sensibility. The film is about Indiana Jones (Harrison Ford), a two-fisted professor of archaeology with a knack for landing in tight situations in some of the earth's more exotic corners, and his sometimes girlfriend Marion Ravenwood (Karen Allen), the daughter of a world-famous archeologist and who, when we first meet her, is running a lowdown bar in remotest Nepal. Just how Marion has come to be running a gin mill in Nepal is never explained, but ''Raiders of the Lost Ark'' is great fun as much for the things it explains as for the explanations it withholds. The time is 1936, which not only attaches ''Raiders of the Lost Ark'' to the films it remembers but also makes possible its fondly lunatic plot, which is about the attempts of Indiana Jones and Marion, at the behest of the United States government, to find the lost Ark of the Covenant before a team of Nazi archeologists can lay their hands on it. Hitler, who is described as being obsessed with the occult, is hellbent on finding the Ark, which once contained the Ten Commandments as handed down to Moses on their originally inscribed tablets. The Ark is reported variously (1) to confer magical powers on the person who possesses it, (2) to be ''something that man was not meant to disturb,'' being ''not of this world'' and, more picturesquely, (3) as ''a radio for speaking to God.'' No wonder Indiana and Marion risk life and limb to prevent the Ark from finding its way to Berlin! After their initial reconciliation in Nepal, following Indiana's narrow escape from death in the Andes, Indiana and Marion fly on to Egypt where there is every reason to believe the Nazis are about to uncover the Ark in a long-buried temple called the Well of Souls. Even before they reach the actual dig, however, there are fearsome obstacles to be overcome in Cairo, including attempted assassinations, a successful kidnapping and a fate worse than death for Marion at the hands of a renegade French archaeologist named Belloq (Paul Freeman). More of the plot you should not know, though it gives nothing away to reveal that Indiana and Marion, either singly or together, must face such tests of their endurance as confinement in an ancient tomb with thousands of asps and cobras, an attack by poisoned darts, a plate of poisoned dates, torture with a red-hot poker, being tied up in a vehicle that explodes before our very eyes and a superchase in which Indiana, on horseback, attempts to catch a Nazi truck convoy carrying the newly found lost Ark to Cairo for transshipment to Berlin. The film's climax is almost as dazzling a display as the one that brings ''Close Encounters'' to its climax. Harrison and Miss Allen are an endearingly resilient, resourceful couple, he with his square jaw, his eyes that can apparently see out of the back of his head and his ever-present fedora, and she with her Brooke Adams-Margot Kidder beauty, her ability to outdrink, shot glass for shot glass, Nepal's toughest barflies, her ever-ready sarcasm and her ability to screech without losing her poise. Spielberg has also managed to make a movie that looks like a billion dollars (it was filmed in, among other places, Tunisia, France, England and Hawaii) yet still suggests the sort of production shortcuts we associate with old B-movies. The Cairo we see on the screen is obviously a North African city but, also obviously, it's not Cairo. There's not a pyramid in sight. My one quibble with Spielberg is that he didn't insert a familiar, preferably unmatching stock shot of Cairo into the scene to make sure we got the point. I suppose, we can't have everything. ''Raiders of the Lost Ark,'' which has been rated PG (''Parental Guidance Suggested''), includes virtually nonstop action that involves a lot of violence, but this is less horrifying than scary in a most pleasurable way. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 1981 11:21:41-PDT From: CSVAX.wildbill at Berkeley Subject: cats The Flat Cats are indeed Heinlein, and appear in his novel \\The Rolling Stones//, which is about a couple of brother child geniuses living in Luna who earn enough credits to buy a spaceship (!!!), with the avowed intention of becoming interplanetary merchants. Their parents (grandmother is Hazel Stone, first mentioned in Future History stories as the chief of Baker Street Irregulars in \\The Moon is a Harsh Mistress//) decide this is not a good idea, so get talked into underwriting the whole venture and coming along themselves in exploration of outer Solar System. Flat cats are not properly cats, but literary ancestors of Tribbles. Feed a flat cat and you get more flat cats. Starve a flat cat and keep it at about 50 degrees Kelvin (their normal environment is vacuum) and it estivates or something...but who would want to starve such a harmless, friendly beast? Answer: a family in a spaceship with a finite food supply and an exponentially growing flat cat supply. [ Thanks also to Will Martin (WMARTIN at OFFICE-3) for identifying the flat cats. -- Jim ] As for cat-tails, they are not inhabitants of the Ringworld, but instead of Earth Plus 6 Million (the one that goes around Jupiter) in Niven's \\A World Out of Time//. They were cats which had been genetically engineered to have no legs and 3-foot-long tails. [ Thanks also to Ken Haase for identifying the cat-tails as belonging to \\A World Out of Time//. -- Jim ] ------------------------------ From: MJL@MIT-MC Date: 06/11/81 12:49:29 Cats? How about the mutant Cat-People of PJ Farmer's THE STONE GOD AWAKENS? (Won't say anything about the story, it'd be a spoiler...) /Mijjil ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 1981 09:50:51-PDT From: E.jeffc at Berkeley Subject: No science in science fiction ? I ended the last letter be stating that the science fiction of H.G. Wells encouraged anti-scientific thought. Once you think about the plots of his books, it becomes rather obvious. The Time Machine: the evil Morlocks have all the technology, and it's very obvious as to whom the reader's sympathies are to belong to. It was science which destroyed the world in the first place, and it was science which was holding the beautiful Eloy prisoners of the evil Morlocks. The War of the Worlds: Again, the evil Martians have all the technology on their side. After destroying the world and making man captive, the Martians are defeated by bacteria, NOT BY MAN. Nothing man could do would get rid of them, man had no control whatsoever. It was only by the unforseeable intervention of disease which freed man. It is a common theme throughout Well's books that technology causes some disaster, and then the world is set straight again at the end when all science is put into the control of a few select people, who could insure that science will not be "misused" again and therefore cause another disaster. In short, Wells had the mentality of an environmentallist, not a scientist! And yet his books are considered science fiction classics!!! -------------------- If science fiction in its written form has some problems, these are nothing when compared to the film media. Here I will attack two very popular science fiction films: Close Encounters of the Third Kind: Isaac Asmiov is well known for having declared in his editorials that there is no science in this movie. That is absolutely correct, but the real danger of this film is even more ghastly. Consider what the main characters go through in the film. They constantly hear the musical notes, they have an obsession with this mountain, so strong an obsession, in fact, that one man builds a model of the mountain in his living room! In the process, he drives his wife away. Any psychologist can tell you that these are the symptoms of a nervous breakdown, and yet the movie presents these things as necessary for the obtainment of the "higher truth"!!!!! This movie doesn't make science popular with the public, nor does it give the public an idea what science is, but it does tell the public that it's OK to have nervous breakdown, because this is the way to find the higher truth in the universe. Star Wars: Here I add my few hundred bytes to the few hundred thousand already said. (Pay attention, George Lucas, if you are reading this.) On the whole, Star Wars is a simple action film, filled with the typical SF gadgetry. In this fashion it is no worse than the written form. However, there is the question of the Force. I cannot think of anything more anti-scientific than the Force. It follows no rules that can be discerned, it can do anything, and there is an obvious connection between the Force, ESP, and mysticism in general. -------------------- Science fact television shows also are guilt of this gross distortion of science, and I will continue with that story in another letter tomorrow. Jeff ------------------------------ Date: 11 June 1981 19:12 edt From: Margolin.PDO at MIT-Multics Subject: Dodo Yes, I remember "Dodo, the Kid from Outer Space". I don't remember very much, and I'm surprised that Lauren has never heard of it. The most I remember is the beginning of the theme song: Dodo, the kid from outer space, Dodo, he can go anyplace, With antennas on his ears, Propellers on his feet, . . . That's as far as my memory goes. While this is playing, he is zipping all over the place. Much of the theme of the show was him trying to get accustomed to earthly customs (much as in "Mork and Mindy"), while not getting caught by the authorities. barmar ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 1981 1713-PDT From: Lynn Gold Subject: Beany and Cecil Funny...according to Stan Freberg (who created the series), it was just a children's puppet show back in the '40's which later became an animated feature. (For those of you who are unfamiliar with Freberg, he has released many comedy albums and produced numerous commercials, such as Sunsweet's "campaign" to remove wrinkles from prunes and more recently a bunch for Jeno's Pizzas and a Campbell Soup commercial which had Ann Miller tap dancing on a can of soup.) While I'm on the topic of commercials, does anyone out there know the name of the girl who appeared in the Choo-Choo Charlie commercials for Good-n-Plenty? --Lynn ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 13-JUN "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #149 *** EOOH *** Date: 13 JUN 1981 0857-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #149 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Saturday, 13 Jun 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 149 Today's Topics: SF Fandom - APAs, SF Books - Budrys Book Column (God Emperor of Dune and Wandor's Flight and Donald A. Wollheim Presents the 1981 Annual World's Best SF and An Infinite Summer and First Voyages and Creating Short Fiction and the Clarion SF Writing Workshop), SF Movies - Clash of the Titans, SF Topics - Science in Science Fiction ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Jun 1981 at 0454-CDT From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Computer APA ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ There was a "computer APA" called something like 'Capaciousness' advertised in a couple recent issues of LOCUS ("The Newspaper of the Science Fiction Field"). 'Twasn't clear whether it was for computers- and/in-SF or just (probably home-) computers. I've sent the SASE, as directed, to get its rules. When they arrive, I'll report back to SF-L if no one on the net has told us about it in the meantime. ------------------------------ Date: 07 Jun 1981 1741-PDT From: Jim McGrath Subject: Science Fiction Column By Algis Budrys (c) 1981 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service) If you can't sing good, sing loud. If you can't write good, write long. ''God Emperor of Dune'' (Putnam's, $12.95 hardcover) is Frank Herbert's bloated codicil to the already overextended ''Dune'' Trilogy, whose climactic statement is that the human race will go on forever and ever, populating universe after universe, thanks to the intricate machinations of the proliferated cast of characters. There's reason to believe that when Herbert began all this, many years ago, his intention was simply to tell the large but still manageable tale of the planet Arrakis, its relationship to the Galactic Empire, and the charismatic Atreides family. But now the tale is wagging the dog. There is so much genealogy and accumulated history that talking about it, not acting on it, dominates this volume. Furthermore, you can't start here. There's no way to understand half the references in this new book without reading the three old ones first. That's an exercise many have found enjoyable. Others have reported it's a little like hitting yourself repeatedly with a hammer to see if it feels good when the pain stops; they go on because it always seems that Herbert is going to tie it all together in the next chapter, or the next. Herbert can be a very good writer. But he appears to have become captive to his own creation, and to have proceeded not to a conclusion but to an infinite diffusion. Nevertheless, you will find this book high on the best-seller list - not the SF best-seller list, THE best-seller list. So I must be wrong. Chicago's Roland Green, with his Wandor series, is also a practitioner of the popular epic form. ''Wandor's Flight'' (Avon, $2.75 paperback), however, does equip the reader to understand this fourth book as readily as the previous three. Green is clearly in love with classical narrative forms, from the work of Homer on up through C.S. Forester, and there are glossaries and prologues aplenty, plus a chronology. With that under your belt, you're ready to plunge into the world of Wandor of the Duelists, his consort, Gwynna, his foe Cragor, and the sweeping political contentions of Chonga, Benzos, et al. Green has a gift for the creaking iron-age machinery of barbarian cultures and the smell of wet armor. If he also has a weakness for the very large cast of characters not named Sam or Joe or Alice, he at least has the forethought to provide all those charts. ''Donald A. Wollheim Presents the 1981 Annual World's Best SF'' (DAW Books, $2.50) hardly needs much explanation after that title. Together with old SF timer Wollheim's sometimes acerb commentary on the present SF scene, there are 10 shorter examples here of good recent science fiction (from 1980, actually), including George R.R. Martin's ''Nightflyers,'' Howard Waldrop's ''The Ugly Chickens'' -which is about the near survival of the dodo in Tennessee - and Bob Leman's ''Window,'' which will scare you. Good stuff from a good, not great, year. ''An Infinite Summer'' (Dell, $2.75) collects five long stories by Christopher Priest, whom some consider England's best new SF writer. He may be; he is uncommonly ingenious, talented in prose, and has an original touch with a story. For one, try ''Palely Loitering,'' about a young man who falls desperately in love with a young woman who, unfortunately, is always at some other place in a park where time runs differently in different places. So you would like to be a science fiction writer? Fine. Here is the three-step Royal Road to Best Sellerdom: Get ''First Voyages,'' (Avon, $2.95), edited by Damon Knight, Martin H. Greenberg and Joseph D. Olander. This collects the first-published stories of 20 SF giants and near-giants...well, I'm in there, too...DeCamp, del Rey, van Vogt, Heinlein, Sturgeon, Clement, Clarke, Anderson, Merril, Cordwainer Smith, Harness, MacLean, Pangborn, Zenna Henderson, Dick, Davidson, Aldiss, Ballard, Le Guin, and that other fellow. Good stuff. GOOD stuff, most of it. And just enough crudity and obfuscation in it to encourage the novice. If you can't sing good, sing young - or sing SOVETIME; you never know. Then get ''Creating Short Fiction,'' by Damon Knight (Writers Digest Books, $11.95). What Knight doesn't know about writing the short story cannot be put into expository prose anyway. And you can always string a bunch of shorts together into an Odyssey. And finally, sign up for the Clarion SF Writing Workshop, the famous six-week total-immersion course held each summer at Michigan State University. It starts June 29, and this year's instructors are Robin Scott Wilson, Elizabeth A. Lynn, Joe Haldeman, Kate Wilhelm, Damon Knight and myself. With room and board, it costs about $1,000 for non-residents of Michigan and at that price you'd better be serious about it. Write immediately to Prof. Tess Tavormina, Lyman Briggs College, Michigan State University, East Lansing, Mich. 48824. Enclose a short story, because you have to compete to get in. Try not to enclose the first chapter of a planned four-volume epic. [ Thanks also to Stuart McLure Cracraft and Don Woods for sending in a copy of this column. -- Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 1981 1717-PDT From: Jim McGrath By Roger Ebert (c) 1981 Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service) CLASH OF THE TITANS, starring Harry Hamlin, Judi Bowker, Burgess Meredity, Laurence Olivier, Maggie Smith and Neil McCarthy, directed by Desmond Davis. 3 1/2 stars. ''Clash of the Titans'' is the kind of movie they aren't supposed to be making anymore: a grand and glorious romantic adventure, filled with brave heroes, beautiful heroines, fearsome monsters and awe-inspiring duels to the death. It is a lot of fun. It was quite possibly intended as a sort of Greek mythological retread of ''Star Wars'' (it has a wise little mechanical owl in it who's a third cousin of R2-D2), but it's also part of an older Hollywood tradition of special-effects fantasies, and its visual wonderments are astonishing. The story, on the other hand, is robust and straightforward. Perseus (Harry Hamlin) is locked into a coffin with his mother and cast into the sea, after she has angered the gods. But Zeus (Laurence Olivier) takes pity and sees that the coffin washes ashore on a deserted island, where Perseus grows to manhood and learns of his mission in life. The mission, in a nutshell, is to return to Joppa and rescue Andromeda (Judi Bowker) from a fate worse than death: marriage to the hideously ugly Calibos, who was promised her hand in marriage before he was turned into a monster by the wrath of the gods. Calibos lives in a swamp and dispatches a gigantic, scrawny bird every night to fetch him e spirit of the sleeping Andromeda in a gilded cage. If Perseus is to marry Andromeda, he must defeat Calibos in combat and also answer a riddle posed by Cassiopeia, Andromeda's mother. Those who answer the riddle incorrectly are condemned to die. Love was more complicated in the old days. There are, of course, other tests. To follow the bird back to the lair of Calibos, the resourceful Perseus must capture and tame Pegasus, the last of the great winged horses. He must also enter the lair of Medusa, who turns men to stone with one glance, and behead her so that he can use her dead eyes to petrify the gargantuan monster Kraken, who is unchained from his cage on the ocean floor so that he can ravish Joppa in general and Andromeda in particular. All of this is gloriously silly, and there's a lot of laughter in the theater, but it's good-hearted laughter because this movie so obviously is in love with its fantastic images. Because the movie respects its material, it even succeeds in halfway selling us this story; movies that look like ''Clash of the Titans'' have a tendency to seem ridiculous, but this film has the courage of its convictions. It is also blessed with a cast that somehow finds its way past all the monsters and through all the heroic dialogue and gets us involved in the characters. Harry Hamlin is a completely satisfactory Perseus, handsome and solemn and charged with his own mission. Judi Bowker is a beautiful princess and a great screamer, especially in the scene where she's chained to the rock and Kraken is slobbering all over her. Burgess Meredith has a nice little supporting role as Ammon, an old playwright who thinks he may be able to turn all of this into a quick epic. And Laurence Olivier is just as I have always imagined Zeus: petulant, but with a soft spot for a pretty face. The real star of the movie, however, is Ray Harryhausen, who has been working toward this movie during more than 40 years as a creator of special effects. He uses combinations of animation, miniatures, optical tricks and multiple images to put humans into the same movie frames as the most fantastical creatures of legend, and more often than not, they look pretty convincing; when Perseus tames Pegasus, it sure looks like he's dealing with a real horse (except for the wings, of course). Harryhausen's credits include ''Mighty Joe Young,'' ''Jason and the Argonauts'' and ''The Golden Voyage of Sinbad,'' but ''Clash of the Titans'' is his masterwork. Among Harryhausen's inspired set-pieces: the battle in Medusa's lair, with her hair writhing with snakes; the flying horse scenes; the gigantic prehistoric bird; the two-headed wolf-dog, Dioskilos; the Stygian witches; and, of course, Kraken, who rears up from the sea and causes tidal waves that do a lot of very convincing damage to a Greek city that exists only in Harryhausen's art. The most lovable special-effects creation in the movie is little Bubo, a golden owl sent by the gods to help Perseus in his trials. Bubo whistles and rotates his head something like R2-D2 in ''Star Wars,'' and he has a similar personality, too, especially at the hilarious moment when he enters the film for the first time. ''Clash of the Titans'' is just about perfect as summer entertainment. It's a family film (there's nothing in it that would disturb any but the most impressionable children), and yet it's not by any means innocuous: It's got blood and thunder and lots of gory details, all presented with enormous gusto and style. It has faith in a story-telling tradition that sometimes seems almost forgotten, a tradition depending upon legends and myths, magical swords, enchanted shields, invisibility helmets, and the overwhelming power of a kiss. I had a great time. ------------------------------ Date: 12 June 1981 17:32-EDT From: Steve Strassmann Subject: Clash of the Titans A recent mention of the soon-to-be released Clash of the Titans reminded me to type a review. It's not easy to write a spoiler for a movie based on a Greek myth, but this is very close to one: ClotT is as good a name as any for this flick. It was shown in a sneak preview on the MIT campus a month or so ago, but the most I can remember is the disappointment at the whole kaboodle. The animation was acceptable, but varied greatly in quality. A few scenes (Perseus & the Gorgon) for example, had very imaginative tricks (like the men getting stoned). However, some of the visible marionette strings & ragged matte lines around the Greek temples (What's the Acropolis doing in the Grand Canyon, anyway?) took away a lot of the magic. The mutilation of the Perseus myth was a crime in itself. Perseus himself is portrayed as the dingbat he never was, and the Olympian gods as the petty, jealous, bickering pack of children they always were. There are obvious discrepancies, such as Perseus' flinging the Medusa's head, and watching its trajectory carefully, and the introduction of a "mechanical guide" which is a clone of R2-D2 right down to the whistles & spinning head. As a matter of fact, a good deal of the time, heros walk off without their weapons only to find them in their hands in the next combat scene. (Of course, Perseus does manage to lose an awful lot of stuff that he never lost in the original legend.) Don't see ClotT to learn about Perseus, to see new special effects, or even for Laurence Olivier's Zeus (Lately, he's been confused between his roles as Jews or Nazis. He's a Nazi here.); see it if you will because it's an O.K. hero/faithful sidekick story with more (if not better) special effects than, say, Ordinary People. ------------------------------ Date: 12 June 1981 02:00-EDT From: Stuart M. Cracraft Subject: H.G. Wells encouraging anti-scientific thought That's a somewhat dubious claim. You might as well say the same thing about Crichton's Westworld, Andromeda Strain, Terminal Man. Carrying cynicism of this kind too far could invalidate 99% of SF produced by so-called hard-science writers like Clarke, Niven, Haldeman. About the only writer I can think of who used truly scientific endings was Doyle in the Sherlock Holmes stories and some of those were pretty far-fetched too. First and foremost, Wells was a failed social architect, not an environmentalist. I imagine that if Wells had adhered to a strict policy of scientifically resolving his tales, his work might have faded into obscurity, considering the possibly ludicrous "resolutions" he might have resorted to. Instead, we're left with situations which place Man in a whirlwind of change, both technological and social. I don't feel that they encourage anti-scientific thought at all. They merely show Wells's discontent with the paths of social change as he had perceived them. In my opinion, Wells was one of the best writers at dealing with fantastically implausible technology in ordinary situations. THE TIME MACHINE was not written to demonstrate superior technology winning out; rather, Wells wrote it to extrapolate the dichotomy in English society of the 1890's as he envisioned it. THE WAR OF THE WORLDS has an outside force of superior technology, but the entire conflict is probably staged just to show how Man might react to a supposedly invincible enemy (another good example of this is Varley's OPHIUCHI HOTLINE). Wells was concerned with social change. His scientific devices were used purely as a means for accomplishing that change rapidly and allowed him to quickly start examining the effect on people. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 14-JUN "JPM at MIT-ML" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #150 *** EOOH *** Date: 14 JUN 1981 1913-EDT From: JPM at MIT-ML Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #150 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Sunday, 14 Jun 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 150 Today's Topics: SF Fandom - Westercon, SF Books - Fantasticats, SF Movies - Clash of the Titans, SF Music - Theme from "Dark Shadows", SF Topics - Children's stories (Boy's Life stories) & Children's TV (Galactic Patrol) & Science in Science Fiction ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 June 1981 02:18 edt From: Schauble.Multics at MIT-Multics Subject: Sacramento Westercon I am considering taking the Amtrack costal train from LA to Sacramento, since this may be the last year that it exists (considering the Amtrack budget cuts). I would appreciate comments from anyone who has ever taken this train. My problem is that the train stops in Davis, not in Sacramento. Is there perhaps someone on this list that can tell me how to finish the trip? Perhaps some Sacramento resident or someone who will be at the con who will offer a ride? Anyone from LA interested in riding up in a group?? The train leaves LA at 10:30 Thursday morning and arrives in Davis at 10:45 PM. And, although this is much too early by tradition, any interest in an SF-Lovers party at the con?? Any answers or other expressions of interest should be sent directly to me. Thanks, Paul ------------------------------ From: DAA@MIT-ML Date: 06/12/81 22:17:18 If proof is needed about cats in SF, in Ringworld Engineers, Louis thinks to himself that "The kzinti males look like fat orange cats walking on their hind legs. . . almost." ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 1981 1007-PDT From: Mark Crispin Subject: Cats... Enough on cats already! Or at least include some SF books for those of us who HATE cats. Unfortunately, the two books I can think of ("The I Hate Cats Book" and "101 Things to Do With A Dead Cat") aren't SF. -- Mark -- ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 1981 0613-PDT Sender: GEOFF at SRI-CSL Subject: Something for the "Dead Cat Panel"? From: the tty of Geoffrey S. Goodfellow I wonder if this guy was the artist who did the highly controversy "How To Kill a Cat" at the San Francisco WESTERCON 2 years ago that inspired the "Dead Cat Panel" at the following WESTERCON in Los Angeles the year following? 101 Uses For A Dead Cat By TIMOTHY HARPER Associated Press Writer NEW YORK (AP) - There may be more than one way to skin a cat, but only one man is willing to risk the wrath of 23 million cat lovers with 101 suggestions for what to do with the hide. That man is Simon Bond, a 33-year-old Englishman who professes to love cats even though they make him sneeze. His best-selling book, entitled ''101 Uses for a Dead Cat,'' is a dementedly whimsical collection of cartoons purporting to show how cats can be useful even after they've exhausted their nine lives. Some call it disgusting, obscene, sadistic, horrible and sick. Others call it very funny. And everybody calls it very, very successful. Already, 200,000 copies of the $2.95 book published by Clarkson N. Potter Inc. of New York are in print, pushing it well past the ''cat books'' it spoofs. It's even more popular than the recent publishing phenomenon ''The Official Preppie Handbook,''e throw rugs, like bearskins, before the hearth. ''Monstrous and obscene,'' Roy Youngdale of Los Altos, Calif., said in one of dozens of outraged letters received by the publisher from cat fanciers. ''An open call to sadism.'' Bond, who said he got the idea for the 95-page book during a conversation with friends in Britain's zany Monty Python comedy troupe, has sketched rigor mortis cats with tails sharpened so they can be thrown at dartboards. ''Weirdness,'' wrote Nancy Orr of Tampa, Fla. One of Bond's kitty carcasses has been hollowed into a bowling ball bag; several others are mounted above prison fences with their tiny ears holding barbed wire in place. ''The death of a cat is not a funny circumstance,'' Ann Green-Cloutier of Warren, R.I., wrote. A cat's foreleg serves as a tone arm on a phonograph and a carcass draped over a teapot as a cozy. One flattened kitty, grasped by the tail, serves as a tennis racket. Another squished feline, without tail, is a perfect Frisbee. One writer, W. Michael Long, suggested another book: ''101 Uses for a Dead Simon Bond.'' The book also depicts four cats as dining table legs, while a cat on its hindquarters with forelegs extended is a functional wine rack. Two tails are portrayed as windshield wipers and little paws are transformed into rubber stamps. ''Horrible,'' wrote Laurie Zane. ''This man must be a sad and despicable human being.'' Actually, Bond is a rather impish fellow whose asthma and allergies led him to move to Phoenix, Ariz., several years ago. His cartoons have been published in magazines like Esquire and the New Yorker, but Bond swore in an interview that he had never earned more than $10,000 in a single year - until now. He said ''101 Uses'' was put together for fun, not money. ''I couldn't have done the book if I thought it was terrible,'' he protested. ''I'm the first to start sneezing when a cat comes round, but I'm also the first to start petting it.'' Nancy White Kahan, the publicist promoting ''101 Uses,'' says more than 200,000 copies of the book have been printed, and booksellers are ordering in quantities surpassing the previous record fast-seller, ''The Official Preppie Handbook.'' This week ''101 Uses'' hit No. 7 on the New York Times list of trade book bestsellers and No. 1 on the Walden and Dalton bestseller lists, ahead of other books in the cat category like ''The Official I Hate Cats Book,'' the ''Catcalender'' and ''Garfield Gains Weight.'' Despite the letters, Ms. Kahan says booksellers report most of the buyers are cat fanciers. ''A few people have just lost their sense of humor and their perspective over it,'' she said. Psychologist Joyce Brothers agrees. While Bond's catty humor may be slightly sick, she said, it is nonetheless a harmless sort of comedy that produces laughter and relieves tension. ''It's a put-on,'' she said. ''If you get upset at this, you have too much emotional involvement in your pet.'' There have been favorable letters, too. One arrived on the stationery of the Bahrain Dead Cat Society, purportedly from the State of Bahrain on the Arabian Gulf. The group's motto is ''Felix Morte,'' and its cable address is FLATCAT. The society said it was ''eagerly'' ordering five copies to share with its affiliates. And who are they? Well, the letter listed them as the North American Dead Dog Society, the Kenyan Institute for Crushed Aardvarks, the Fiji Squashed Squid Squad and the North Scunthorpe Hedgehog Hit Men. ------------------------------ From: RP@MIT-ML Date: 06/13/81 07:59:25 Subject: Clash of the Titans CLash Of the Titans or CLOT is a bore from the start (unless you are under 10). I thought the effects were awful. I was reminded of the King Kong effort a few years ago because the monsters move in jerks (so do the actors come to think of it). The acting is outrageous as well. In one unforgettable scene Zeus makes himself seen to Perseus as an image on a shield and Sir Larry sounded like he was being detoxified. Save your bucks for a second round of Raiders!! ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 1981 1311-PDT Sender: GEOFF at SRI-CSL Subject: Record of music for greatest serial ever to be on TV. From: the tty of Geoffrey S. Goodfellow I was over at someones house the other night and they had a record of "DARK SHADOWS" (with pictures of Barnibus and Quentin on the front), by the Robert Orchestra. Philips, PHS 600-314 - Stereo circa '69. Anyone have any leads on how i might obtain a copy of this gem? How many others used to be glued to the TV set at 4PM daily when it was playing? I really think it was the best serial ever to be on TV. P.S. To possible bay-area Dark Shadows lovers, I'm thinking of writing a letter to James Gabbert (of TV-20, where he has revived OUTER LIMITS and other greats) to see if I can get him to dig up the series and rerun it, like Ch44 did for a while when Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman was on). ------------------------------ Date: 11 June 1981 1210-EDT (Thursday) From: David.Smith at CMU-10A (C410DS30) Subject: Names The Boys' Life article about the solar sailing regatta was called The Sunjammers. That's D-u-r-w-a-r-d Kirby. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 1981 0907-PDT From: Tom Wadlow Subject: Boy Scouts in Space Heinlein wrote quite a few ``juvenile'' novels for Boy's Life way back when. Among them was ``Farmer in the Sky'' which had a bunch of kids forming a scout troop on board a very large spacecraft (not a generation ship, though) on its way to Ganymede. As for the Scouts with the time machine, I remeber the stories, but not the author (though it definitely wasn't Heinlein). I distinctly remember that my junior high school library had a hardback collection of them, as well. Boy's Life also carried some reasonably well-drawn and interesting comic strips with a science-fiction flavor. I recall one about a guy who kept wandering through time by going into a cave, and another about some folks who wandered about in a flying saucer. As my collection (if it still exists) is about 1700 miles away, I can't provide facts, just vague recollections. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 1981 10:54:19 EDT (Thursday) From: Drew M. Powles Subject: Young at dec and Aquaboy Sorry to nitpick: but it's Aqualad, not Aquaboy. ------------------------------ Date: 1981-6-11-11:06:24.79 Sender: YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO From: NIGEL CONLIFFE at VAXWRK at ORION at METOO Subject: Marionette TV shows In answer to Tony Mione's question, I too remember a show called something like Planet Patrol; I think that it was called "Galactic Patrol"???? The spaceships were called "Galaspheres", and were vertical tubes (containing some sort of drive mechanism), surrounded by a circular tube which contained the living quarters, control room, "computer", etc. The drive seemed strange -- a glowing semicircular beam of light connecting the top and bottom of the central tube, but rotating (faster at increased speeds) outside the area of the living quarters. The only other two things that I remember about the show were that the robots involved look incredibly fragile and unstable, and that, back on good old mother earth, people used to travel in cars inside transparent tubes. Does this ring any more bells??? Nigel ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 1981 1221-PDT From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE Subject: re: lack of s in sf H. G. Wells feared and disliked science? What a curious statement. True, the technological Morlocks in "The Time Machine" are cave-dwelling cannibals, but the Eloi are not therefore heros; they are portrayed as passive cattle. The hero is the vigorous Victorian and his wonderful time machine. It's also true that in "The War of the Worlds" the technological Martians are brought low by the smallest of creatures, but does that demonstrate a rejection of technology or a proper humility about its limits? One of the first things you learn in the engineering game is that overlooked details can cause catastrophic failures, and the second thing you learn is that you always overlook something. Nor do I remember where Wells says that science should be kept in the hands of the elite. There's a scientific elite in "Things To Come", but I don't think it kept its knowledge secret. In general Wells was not blind to the dangers of science, but that is not a sign of fear, it is one of understanding. It is one of the reasons why, unlike the likes of Gernsback, you can still read him without wincing. ------------------------------ Date: 06/12/81 1058-EDT From: KG Heinemann (SORCEROR at LL) Sender: SORCEROR at LL Subject: The Force; Science vs. Mysticism is SF ? An illustration of the connection between "The Force" of the SW universe and the Western tradition of scholarly occultism may be found on p. 27 of Robert Anton Wilson's recent novel, MASKS OF THE ILLUMINATI. "The Force" is the last entry on a list of names which have been given to "the Vril force that could mutate humanity into superhumanity". The major motivation for this message, however, is not simply to submit a small bit of relevant information from a work of literature, but to express my dismay at some of the premises which appear to be implicit in E.jeffc's criticism of SW and CEoTK. Denying a place in SF to the tradition of scholarly mysticism is to take a very narrow view the genre's values and the human concerns that it may address. Modern science relies on an epistemological framework which has never been thoroughly justified. Faith in induction and belief in the reality of abstract theoretical concepts may be manifestations of wishful thinking, just as much as the longing to wield magic and psionic abilities, or the desire to become an entity of the higher planes. Science originates from the desire to understand and control the world we live in, while these mystic beliefs arise from the desire to transcend existential isolation, the possible futility of life when confronted with the fact of death, and the ennui which can result. Who's to say that one of these sets of needs is more valid than the other, or that one falls more properly under the scope of SF? This genre's ability to use scientific knowledge and speculation to address "religious" issues is one of its most appealing aspects, for me. I too have been trained as a scientist, and I too deplore the frequency with which distorted or invented "science" are used to explain the existence of fantastic "objects", the occurrence of exotic, voluptuous physical scenery and events, or an author's laziness in dealing with the details and all the implications of a made-up premise. However, condemning works, simply because they allude to ideas from the body of scholarship on the occult, seems to contradict and deny one of the major aims and functions of SF. As a final thought, ponder how one would reconcile a total ban on the use of mystical thinking, in SF, with Clarke's notion that "A sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."? EOF (End Of Flame). Sincerely, Karl G. Heinemann ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 15-JUN "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #151 *** EOOH *** Date: 15 JUN 1981 0802-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #151 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Monday, 15 Jun 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 151 Today's Topics: SF Books - Dream Park, SF Movies - Clash of the Titans, SF Topics - Computer Animation & Compu-fiction & Children's TV (Here's the Plot,What's the Title and Space Angles and Colonel Bleep) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 11 Jun 1981 16:29 PDT From: Ayers at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #147 The 11 June edition of SF-Lovers carried two separated articles that are well-related: a review of Niven's "Dream Park" and an editorial "No Science in Science Fiction?" Larry Niven is considered a "hard" sf writer. "Dream Park" is set in the near future. It uses computer-generated "holograms" for its wonderful effects. Did you ask yourself how those holograms work? Answer: they don't. If you're in Dream Park and, between you and an opaque object, some computer-generated hologram appears, then there has to be something other than air in that line-of-sight. [Or the system is using the non-linear transmissive properties of air, which become useful only at power densities you wouldn't want to be near.] Did you notice this difficulty with the story? Does the fact that Niven's use of "hologram" is akin to the use of "hyperdrive" -- that is as a noise word, implying the existence of science that the author isn't going to explain -- even though "hologram" is currently defined, and thus you initially accept it as being Science, bother you? Attempted moral (because otherwise this msg isn't going anywhere at all): "E.jeffc at Berkeley" is correct: its science FICTION. Bob ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 1981 at 0036-CDT From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ TITANS? "ClotT" is apt! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ The review in a recent SF-L by Roger Ebert from the Chicago Sun-Times (Field News Service) leaves a great deal to be desired. Accuracy, for one thing. Maybe he was just using 'slobbering' to convey the \feel/ of the scene, in-- Andromeda is "chained to the rock and Kraken is slobbering all over her" and 'ravish' rather than the more accurate 'ravage' for its greater impact in-- "Kraken, who is unchained from his cage on the ocean floor so that he can ravish Joppa in general and Andromeda in particular" For it wasn't that the Kraken was going to ravage Joppa AND Andromeda, but that the choice had been Andromeda OR Joppa... the old 'it is needful that one man die to spare the nation' decision. And as for 'unchained', I saw none-- only a grille. Maybe we could partly blame the special effects for-- "Medusa, who turns men to stone with one glance" but the dialog made it clear it was not Medusa's glance, but a glance AT her that stoned folks. For a whole nest of bobbles, tho, consider-- Danae is "cast into the sea, after she has angered the gods. But Zeus ... takes pity and sees that the coffin washes ashore on a deserted island..." It wasn't the gods she angered, but her father. 'Pity' is pretty dubious way to describe a capricious sense of paternity, and if the island was deserted, who were those people in the background when the baby was being fed? (Maybe Mr. E. was too absorbed in ogling Danae's mammaries to see anything else?) How could-- "Perseus ... mission in life [be] ... to return to Joppa" when he'd never BEEN there? As for-- "gigantic, scrawny bird " ... "gigantic prehistoric bird" it wasn't scrawny, it was a vulture and they're SUPPOSED to look like that. And even tho the related California condor is on its last legs, a drive thru ranch country would convincingly show that ordinary vultures are far from extinct, let alone "prehistoric". He's mixed up about-- "a riddle posed by Cassiopeia, Andromeda's mother." Cassiopeia neither originated the riddle (Calibos did) nor spoke it (Andromeda did THAT). Another desiderata for Mr. E. would be critical acumen. To claim-- "...its visual wonderments are astonishing." is something \I/ find astonishing. This was my first Harryhausen film, and with only STAR WARS and TESB among contemporary movies to compare it to, I was singularly unimpressed. .......... One little touch did intrigue me pleasingly, tho-- the abundance of rosy-colored costumes on the populace in the final Kraken scenes-- because Joppa would have been in the area famous in antiquity for the production of the 'Tyrian purple' (a rich magenta shade) dye. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 1981 2148-PDT From: Jim McGrath Subject: Clash of the Titans By RICHARD FREEDMAN Newhouse News Service (UNDATED) Although ''Clash of the Titans'' purports to be about Greek mythology, like most movies today it's really about special effects. Never mind that such class acts have been assembled on Mount Olympus as Laurence Olivier, Claire Bloom, Maggie Smith and Ursula Andress to play the Greek gods and goddesses Zeus, Hera, Thetis and Aphrodite. They're only on screen for about 10 minutes (Andress has just one line to speak) for advertising purposes, before the monsters take over the show. But what monsters they are! The brainchildren of veteran stop-action, three-dimensional animator Ray Harryhausen (''The Seventh Voyage of Sinbad,'' ''Jason and the Argonauts''), they give ''Clash of the Titans'' whatever life it has, making it far superior in the sword-and-sorcery genre to the gloomily pretentious, yet inexplicably popular ''Excalibur.'' Beginning with a superb, Zeus-ordained tidal wave that sends pillars and statues crashing about the engulfed city of Argos, ''Clash of the Titans'' details the adventures of Zeus' son Perseus (Harry Hamlin) and Andromeda (Judi Bowker). The mythical lovers remain American teen-agers throughout, but in the course of their difficult courtship they encounter such delightful creations of Harryhausen's skill and imagination as Pegasus, Dioskilos, Bubo, the Medusa and the Kraken. Pegasus is Perseus' winged white horse, not on the Lone Ranger's Silver, especially in traffic jams. Less pleasant is Dioskilos, a two-headed wolf-dog out of ''The Howling'' whose heads have to be lopped off separately before Perseus can have the pleasure of meeting the Medusa, whose hairdo of writhing snakes turns a man to stone just by glancing at it. Bubo, a computerized golden owl fashioned by Hephaestus, is Athena's gift to Perseus, and serves the same comic-relief function as Artoo Detoo in ''Star Wars.'' Bubo is unknown to Greek mythology - as is the Kraken, a sea monster that swims down from Norse mythology just to give Perseus a hard time, although the townsfolk standing on the shore when the Kraken looms from the sea seem totally and notably unimpressed. Like present-day New Yorkers, they've seen it all. In addition, Harryhausen has devised an awesome Charon, the skeleton ferryman of the River Styx; the three Stygian witches like the Weird Sisters in ''Macbeth,'' but with only one eye among them; and a horde of giant sand scorpions that should keep us all off the beaches this summer. It's all good, clean fun, though, with Zeus emanating neon rays of electric blue from his noble brow, a talking statue of Thetis, and a giant vulture who bears Andromeda skyward in a gilded cage. ''Clash of the Titans'' may not turn youngsters on to Greek mythology, but it certainly represents the advanced state of the art in movie special effects. FILM CLIP: ''Clash of the Titans.'' A comic strip of Greek mythology through special effects, with Perseus and Andromeda encountering all manner of mechanized beasties, cute and horrific, devised by wizard Ray Harryhausen. Laurence Olivier, Claire Bloom and Maggie Smith are also aboard, but you hardly notice them. Rated ''PG.'' Three stars. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 1981 1806-PDT From: Craig W. Reynolds from III via Rand Subject: Cindy's body data Okay, okay - I'll talk. We thought about various schemes for getting 3D coordinate data to define the shape of Cindy's body, several were too hard or too expensive, some were too messy (slice her up and encode the flat sections), some sounded like a lot of fun - but ... We ended up using a basic photogrammetric technique - we placed reference marks on her body, took photographs from several points of view, digitized the marks from the photos and correlated the data from several views into the 3D data. Of course, the fun part was making the marks ... Two of our hardworking arts staffers did the honors. Interestingly, this all happened last summer, during the actors strike. Being a good union person, Ms. Dey couldn't pose for us until after the strike was over, and we needed to get started. The studio sent us a stand-in. Either they didn't understand what we were doing, or even the real stand-in was on strike but the woman they sent us was completely the wrong shape! She was easily 1.5 times Dey's weight! The synthetic "head" of Cindy was actually taken from Ms. Dey and looks a good deal like her (modulo the lack of hair on the computer model). The body was mathematically "tweaked" to fit her proportions better, but it is only close - no cigar. Craig ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 1981 (Thursday) 2110-EDT From: SHRAGE at WHARTON-10 (Jeffrey Shrager) Subject: Computer selected fiction I think that we have all missed the obvious resource that is right before our eyes. It should be possible to write our own SFL story by some Delphi means. Consider the following scenario: One of us is called "editor" and he writes the first "section" (paragraph, page, some logically complete concept). Then whoever would like to do so simply send in the next section of the story to the editor as they would like to see it continued. Now, we don't want to leave the selection of the "best" next section to him (her) alons so the editor sends out copies of the storylines to 20 randomly selected sfl members and they vote on the continuation that will be used. This, then, is added to the story (and printed in SFL) and the process loops. I think that this would be really neat and a lot of fun and, who knows, maybe we can get it published. In order to even out both work load and stylistic considerations, editor will have a tenure of, say, 10 sections and then will nominate a new editor and collect ballots. That person becomes editor and the process goes on. The editor may have to do some minor rewriting in order to match the style of the story thus far. Anyone game? -- Jeff ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jun 1981 0827-PDT Sender: WMARTIN at OFFICE-3 Subject: Cartoons From: WMartin at Office-3 (Will Martin) For the cartoon lovers out there, keep an eye on your local PBS station (or maybe even bug them about it) and watch for a rerun of a series I recall from only a few years back, featuring award-winning animation from all over the world (Lauren or somebody remember the exact title of this? It was hosted by Jean Marsh of "Upstairs, Downstairs" fame.) This featured lots of European animation, many really excellent and some grotesque and eerie, totally unlike the funny cartoons we are used to here. There was also a WB wartime one of "Boogie-Woogie Bugle Boy", which probably wouldn't get aired otherwise, due to racial stereotypes (it's about a black army training detachment), for those of you who want to see at least one of those fabled 40's WB pieces. Walter Lanz did those, right? (Or at least a lot of them?) Will Martin ------------------------------ Date: 8 June 1981 2259-EDT (Monday) From: Lee.Moore at CMU-10A Subject: Space Angles One cartoon that I am surprised hasn't been mentioned yet and has above average SF connections is "Space Angles". It was done in the same wooden style as "Clutch Cargo". I can't remember it too well but it did have a handsome hero/pilot with a heavy, eye-patched assistant. I recall that they took off through the spokes of one of your standard donut space stations. I also remember an episode in which they had a gladiator ring with giant robots. They robots were controled by humans inside. (reminds me of the old "rock-em sock-em robots" game) (did YOU ever own a "Big Lou"?) (or have a lunch box w/ space scenes?) There was also some planet with a woman enchanter. I used to watch this cartoon (along with one about Norse Gods and one about Hercules) on the Capt. Tug show which was broadcast by the Metro-media affiliate in Washington D.C. Anybody else remeber things with more clarity? Lee Moore ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jun 1981 09:41 PDT From: Weissman at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: ZERO ZERO ISLAND I remember ZERO ZERO ISLAND as the home of Colonel Bleep, too. This is not to say that random other cartoons didn't use it also. ("Dodo, the Kid from Outer Space"??!! You are kidding, right?!) Zero-zero longitude-latitude is indeed water, off the coast of Africa (inside the "elbow" of its west coast), and the only maps I can scare up at the moment show nothing there besides water. But WE KNOW that exploration will show a tiny island there containing the remains of a spaceman, a marionette, and a caveman ...sniff... In any case, I hereby suggest that Colonel Bleep is the earliest cartoon show that used elements of (precursors to?) SF. Anybody care to refute this? -- Bob ------------------------------ Date: 14 June 1981 1822-EDT (Sunday) From: David.Dill at CMU-10A (L170DD60) Subject: Science in Science Fiction As I'm sure everyone has heard too often, the term "science fiction" is frequently inappropriate since much of the literature in the genre doesn't deal with science or technology at all, or the future, for that matter (I'm perfectly happy with the name as an arbitrary label, though). However, a substantial body of science fiction DOES deal with issues of science and technology. The appeal of this literature to me not the ability to supply convincing explanations for hypothetical science or technology, but to explore the effects of scientific and technological developments on people. Thus, science fiction is frequently fiction about the IMPACT of scientific discoveries, not the pursuit or act of scientific discovery. A major reason that science and technology are prominently featured in so much "speculative fiction" (or whatever) is that they are major factors determining the nature of a society -- if you change them, you have a new social system (or civilization) to speculate about. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 17-JUN "JPM at MIT-ML" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #152 *** EOOH *** Date: 17 JUN 1981 0551-EDT From: JPM at MIT-ML Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #152 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Tuesday, 16 Jun 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 152 Today's Topics: SF Books - Dream Park, SF Movies - CEoTK & Clash of the Titans & Special Effects (Ray Harryhausen), SF Topics - Physics Today (Holograms) & International Animation & Children's TV (Space Angels) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 15 JUN 1981 0835-PDT From: FORWARD at USC-ECL Subject: Holograms, fact and fancy I have not read DREAM PARK (If I allow myself the luxury of reading I don't have time to write), so I can't comment directly on Larry Niven's use of holograms in the story, but I thought I would clarify Ayers comment on a hologram image appearing between you and an opaque object, such as a rock. Ayres is right if he meant non-reflective and non-emitting by the word opaque. If the rock was the emitter of the laser light, either directly or by reflection from some hidden laser projector, then your brain would interpret the lights coming from the rock as coming from the position of the holographic image between you and the seemingly non-illuminated rock. The rock does not have to be flat. The computer can compensate for its shape. What IS impossible is for a holographic image to appear when there is NO object in the line of sight. (Of course, the object could be subtle, such as a holographic tissue lens or mirror that is completely transparent and non-refractive or reflective except at three very narrow laser frequencies in the red, green, and blue. Bob Forward ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 1981 09:21 PDT From: Ayers at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: Holograms, fact and fancy One can of course produce a hologram image between a viewer and a rock if the rock is a little special. It could, in theory, be filled with miniature lasers (diodes?) or, as Dr. Forward suggests, it could be reflective at several laser frequencies and its shape accurately known by a computer. But such a "rock" is basically a laboratory "rock", not an out-in-the-woods "rock". DREAM PARK has hologram images appearing between the viewer and his immediate landscape -- the grass and dirt he's kicking as he's walking through it -- and between the viewer and other character's bodies. I stick with my claim that this is hologram-as-hyperspace. That doesn't mean I didn't enjoy the book. Bob ------------------------------ Date: 15 JUN 1981 0928-PDT From: FORWARD at USC-ECL Subject: holograms, fact and fancy If that's what Niven and Barnes have in DREAM PARK, they are hypergrams, not holograms. Bob Forward ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 1981 0955-MDT From: Spencer W. Thomas Subject: CEoTK Translate please??? =S [ CEoTK = Close Encounters of the Third Kind. -- Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 15 June 1981 17:58-EDT From: Daniel G. Shapiro Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #151 Alright, here's my 2 cents. Pico-review: sucks dead bears, plan on seeing only half of it Micro-review: foul beyond belief, don't go unless you are forced at gunpoint Mini-review: Clash of the Titans has got to be the most misbegotten pile of trash to be plastered onto a movie screen since "attack of the killer tomatoes." FOUL as a description, is generous. The acting was absolutely disgusting. They must have hired Perseus by stripping a flat full of extra's to the waist (to examine their pectorals) and asking them to stare intently off into the distance. Perseus won. And he spends the entire movie doing exactly that. (I think it's because his eyes are close together.) The woman (girl) who plays Andromeda was so poorly cast that they had to use a stand-in for the bath scene. (Talk about ambarrassing!) And the cast of thousands was the most uninspiring bunch of Hollywood locals you have ever seen. At the very end of the film, when Perseus single handedly defeats the 500ft tall monster with a craving for human flesh, the villagers clap (singular) with appreciation and cheer, "oh yay, not bad, nice." Vile, vile, vile and dumb. The also-rans were pretty notable. Imagine being a Greek soldier (destined to die) who's boss climbs into the ferry piloted by a living skeleton, death's left hand man, Charon himself. What do you do? Quake with fear? Turn and run? NO! You plod onto the boat and take your seat with everyone else, thinking, "wher' we goin? Isle of Death? Yeah boss, right, you bet." And the special effects were spotty as well. A good medusa, a mostly nice pegasus (although some of the flight scenes were clearly taken with Perseus astride a bench with a beating wing-machine in the background), an acceptable cereberus, a lousy kraken (same scenes shown of its release several times) and a worthless vulture. Why bother? I had one interesting observation tho.. CLoT is the first movie I have ever seen which pays alot of attention to detail, and has absolutely no concern for the larger scale, like plot, photography, sets and acting. I wonder if this is a new trend. Dan ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 1981 2201-PDT From: Jim McGrath Subject: Film column By RICHARD FREEDMAN Newhouse News Service NEW YORK - The ads for ''Clash of the Titans'' boast such big box-office glamor names as Laurence Olivier, Maggie Smith, Claire Bloom and Ursula Andress. They're all in the film - briefly - but the real star of this colorful fantasy on Greek mythological themes is a jovial, bald, 60-year-old man named Ray Harryhausen. Ray who? Ray Harryhausen is the special effects genius whose handmade monsters, filmed by a technique called stop-action animation, have enlivened the extravaganzas ''It Came From Beneath the Sea,'' ''The Seventh Voyage of Sinbad'' and ''Jason and the Argonauts'' - which some Harryhausen devotees consider his masterpiece because of a scene in which the legendary hero battles a whole army of animated skeletons. To honor his unique career in creating special effects, the Museum of Modern Art has mounted an impressive Ray Harryhausen retrospective featuring drawings and the actual working models for such engaging creatures as Pegasus the winged horse; Budo the wise owl; the fearsome, two-headed dog Dioskilos; the Kraken, who rises from the sea to terrify everybody; and - Harryhausen's personal favorite - the Medusa, whose hairdo, consisting of 12 writhing snakes, can turn a man to stone just by glancing at it. They're all from ''Clash of the Titans,'' but earlier Harryhausen creations are on display as well. ''When I saw the retrospective I shuddered because I realized all the things I should have done,'' the modest artist says. ''We had to do the best we could within the limitations of a budget and bad weather. Reality, I learned, is carting 100 people around four countries at the mercy of the weather.'' Harryhausen was turned on to special effects when he saw the original ''King Kong'' as a boy of 14 at Grauman's Chinese Theater in Hollywood. ''It was such a startling revelation to see these things move,'' he recalls. ''You knew they weren't real - and yet they looked real. It was the illusion of a lifetime.'' Inspired, the boy went home to create a bear, using what he hopes was an old fur coat of his mother's for its realistic pelt. From there he went on to study anatomy, sculpture and animation techniques until, in 1946, he was able to join his idol, Willis O'Brien, who created King Kong, as an assistant on ''Mighty Joe Young.'' The technique he perfected involves filming his monsters a frame at a time, while he moves the serpents, tentacles or whatever a millimeter at a time. It involves immense patience, of course. ''I work in my studio at home in London, where I've lived since 1959,'' he tells an interviewer over lunch during which he passes up the soft-shelled crabs because ''I've made so much money from animated crabs I'd feel I was eating my children.'' ''The Medusa sequence took two or three months to film,'' he says of ''Clash of the Titans.'' ''I made the snakes different colors so I'd know which ones I'd moved and which I hadn't. My great nightmare is being interrupted by a phone call and forgetting where I've left off. ''For Perseus' fight with the Medusa I first cast it in bronze to help the director, Desmond Davis, show the actor, Harry Hamlin, how to react. Then I modeled the Medusa herself in clay, with liquid rubber around it. I even gave her hairy armpits ... for Continental audiences.'' Frequently Harryhausen will first make elaborate, gloomy drawings of his creatures that resemble the doom-haunted dungeons of Piranesi or the Dante illustrations of Gustave Dore. ''I can't draw in any other way,'' he says in acknowledging the influences. ''I'm a great admirer of Dore's, and recently found two rare oil paintings by him. Did you know that several of his paintings are supposed to have gone down with the Titanic? ''I also love Piranesi's gigantism. I think he and Dore are coming back in fashion because people are getting tired of looking at gunny sacks pretending to be art. ''The drawings are mostly to raise money for making the movie. But they should help the director visualize the set, as well. It always amazes me that certain directors can't judge from the drawings. Then they see the completed set and say they don't like it. ''Sam Goldwyn once said: 'Start with an earthquake and then build to a climax.' That's always been my motto in dreaming up my creatures. ''But we're not in competition with God. We want the audience to know they're watching animated creatures and not the real thing, because with most of my monsters there is no real thing - thank God!'' Harryhausen's hobby, when he isn't inventing, constructing, and laboriously moving his monsters for the camera, is collecting film scores, about which he has some pungent ideas: ''Did you know Max Steiner's score for ''King Kong'' was the first original movie score? It's still a masterpiece. Too much movie music in the last 10 years has been degraded to a pop-rock beat, and a lot of the young audience really hates it. They just don't know any alternative because not one radio station these days plays sane music. ''But television at least gives youngsters a chance to hear those wonderful old Warner Brothers scores - Steiner's for Bette Davis' 'Now Voyager,' for instance. Laurence Rosenthal's music for 'Clash of the Titans' is in the grand romantic tradition.'' Strolling up Fifth Avenue to his suite at the Plaza Hotel after lunch, Harryhausen stops to peer in the window of Steuben Glass to admire a toy trian. Then he enters the F.A.O. Schwartz toy emporium to check on whether they've got models of his ''Clash of the Titans'' creatures in stock yet. They don't, and he registers a child's disappointment. ''I'm especially interested in Bubo, the computerized owl,'' he says. ''It's a development of Athena's wise old owl, but a real owl is so untalented it would be boring to watch stretched out through a whole picture. ''So I had Hephaestus, the craftsman of the gods, construct this robot owl; you know there have been robots throughout all mythology. A good robot should be slightly menacing. What influenced me most after 'King Kong' was Fritz Lang's Metropolis,' which has a woman turned into a robot.'' Arrived at his suite to show off the foot-high models for his creations, Harryhausen chuckles at the hard time he had getting them through U.S. Customs, which didn't quite know what to make of them. Then his eye lights on a necktie his Scottish wife Diana Bruce has bought him during a morning's shopping expedition. The tie is lying in its gift wrapping on the coffee table. Its pattern is an elaborate assortment of lovely pastel monsters, all writhing together. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 1981 15:25:33-PDT From: CSVAX.dmu at Berkeley Subject: more memory fragments That show W. Martin was asking about-- I think it was the ``International Animation Festival'' I used to watch it on PBS in the NYC area on Sunday nights right after (before?) Monty Python. It was certainly worth seeing. I've been waiting for someone to mention Space Angels. Wasn't the heavy sidekick's name Taurus? I recall that there were three crew, two men (including Taurus) and a shapely woman. Finally the seats in the rocket pitched so that our heroes (oops that's another show) were always upright w.r.t. the camera, whether the ship was vertical (take-off and landing) or horizontal (flying through space). Lastly, a bit of song (not from SA): When he gets in a scrape, he makes his escape with the help of his friend a great big ape! Then away he'll schlep on his elephant Shep when Ursula and Andrea(???) stay in step. . David Ungar ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 1981 1704-PDT From: Craig W. Reynolds from III via Rand Subject: International Animation The animation anthology show Will Martin referred to is "International Animation" hosted by Jean Marsh on PBS stations. [ Thanks also to Andrew Tannenbaum (TRB@MIT-MC) for identifying this series. -- Jim ] It is a must-see for any animation fans out there. Many (most?) of the classic animated shorts can be seen on this show. A very wide selection of styles, periods, and countries of origin are presented. A lot of material from eastern Europe was shown, especially the Zagreb (?) studio's work. I also like the theme animation of the show. Pickiness: "cartoon" is a style of drawing (eg "a political cartoon"), "animation" is something that moves, or seems to (eg "clay animation", "computer graphic animation") ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 19-JUN "JPM at MIT-ML" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #153 *** EOOH *** Date: 19 JUN 1981 1004-EDT From: JPM at MIT-ML Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #153 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Thursday, 18 Jun 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 153 Today's Topics: SF Books - Fantasticats & Cyber-SF, SF Movies - Clash of the Titans, SF TV - Dark Shadows, SF Topics - International Animation & Compu-fiction & Children's TV (George of the Jungle and Dodo and Space Angels) & Children's stories ("The Haunted Spacesuit") & Science in Science Fiction ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 15 Jun 1981 04:20:36-PDT From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley Subject: SF Cat-tastrophes Well, if you prefer i'm-purr-fect SF, I can think of one example sure to give anyone claws-trophobia. It's a story called "Late Night Final", and it's really about the morality of TV producers. A vicious cat-like alien from an off-limits planet lands on earth, with the intention of looting the poor weak inhabitants. She pulls all sorts of vicious acts, such as killing the skid-row physician she forced to surgically alter her appearance. Unknown to her, her progress has been monitored by a TV network's hidden surveillance cameras. The network broadcasts her depredations as a block-buster live feature, without regard to the people killed, etc. The censorship board permits this, as long as sexual or scatalogical scenes aren't shown; they don't like it, but the public demands such fare. Finally, when the police apply too much pressure, they close the episode by hiring a man who has (apparently) killed several criminals whom he felt had been wrongly acquitted. Said vigilante is, of course, a popular hero. Anyway, the story has enough anti-cat propaganda to satisfy anyone's evil felines. Hmm -- could the author have been Leigh Brackett? I seem to remember several other Wait a minute -- why am I trying hard to think of anti-cat stories. Look at the bum raps have gotten for thousands of years... hell, just a week or two ago, Ann Landers said she had to go along with all those readers who claimed to know of cats who smothered babies. Me, I think these folks have never heard of sudden infant death syndrome... ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 1981 at 0453-CDT From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ CYBER-SF: Natural Cy-Devices ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ The rarest TYPEs of 'cybernetic' devices are those which are "natural" rather than constructed. Because we have found so few, all of them, not just the robots, are reported on together here. Laumer, K.: RETIEF'S WAR has the alien Quoppina, life forms combining the biological and the mechanical to form natural cyborgs. This is the basis of a lot of the humor in the book. The tone of the other books with cybernetic life forms, however, is not humorous. The circumstances are not described, but robots "grown from seed" in Kyle, D.A.: DRAGON LENSMAN would seem to be "natural". Metallic robot-like life forms occur in High, P.E.: NO TRUCE WITH TERRA Anthony, P.: OX In addition to the natural robotic life forms, "Machine Prime" in Anthony, P.: OX is a similar computer. And there are the alien purple flowers in Simak, C.: ALL FLESH IS GRASS which although biological rather than mechanical, have a root system which is described as forming a computer. 'Problematical' is all we can say about the alien ship's denizens in Clarke, A.C.: RENDEZVOUS WITH RAMA They \could/ be natural. Like the characters in the story, we just don't have enough information to extrapolate reasonably from. ----- Has anyone come across any other books with "natural" cy-devices? ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jun 1981 10:40:32-EDT From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: bad actors in CotT (CLoT?) I'm curious about your statement that the actress(?) playing Andromeda was so bad they had to hire a stand-in for the bath scene. Certainly her proportions were extreme enough to satisfy most people; was it that she refused to do a nude scene (which I find thoroughly unlikely for an unknown in present-day filmmaking)? And do you think that one mark of a good actress is willingness to strip for the camera? Aside from this, I completely agree with your review, except that I didn't think much of the animated full shots of Pegasus---as with the seagull at the beginning, too much contrast between stiff animation and fluid life. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 1981 0853-PDT (Monday) From: Mike at UCLA-SECURITY (Michael Urban) Subject: Dark Shadows, Huzzah! Ah yes. I remember Dark Shadows quite well. It ran back in the late 60's and ended in 1970, or 1971, right? I only caught the last couple of years of the program with any frequency. Thoroughly bizarre, and even more fun when you were up on the things they were stealing from (Dorian Gray, Frankenstein, Jekyll & Hyde, as well as some more obscure stories). Even today, you can hear "Shadows of the Night", which was "Quentin's Theme" on the show, played on the radio. This may be unique--a bit of music introduced as incidental music in a soap opera becoming a successful popular record. Channel 9 here in LA (RKO General affiliate) ran Dark Shadows reruns when MHMH started too. Clever people they were, they ran it at 11 PM, opposite MHMH. So it died from poor ratings, never to be seen again in the LA market, sigh. Again, unique. I can't think of any other soap operas that have gone into syndicated reruns! Every now and then, you see Dark Shadows alumni acting in other things. Notably Kate Jackson of "Charlie's Angels" (That's ANGEL, not ANGLE). However, a DS fan I was talking to at a recent con says that J. Frid (Barnabas) has retired from acting, and wants nothing to do with DS fan activities, unlike the other former cast members. I have the impression that Dark Shadows fans are actually fairly active and well organized. However, more due to laziness than disinterest, I haven't followed up any of the pointers. I assume that there are those out there who can help? Maybe the UFO fan coordinator (whom I know is also a DS fan) can supply information? Mike ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 1981 17:38 PDT From: Pettit at PARC-MAXC Subject: Dark Shadows Dark Shadows was my favorite TV show next to Star Trek during most of high school. In our neighborhood it came on at 3:00, which was the main factor in my choice of going to school 1st thru 6th periods (which let out at 2:20) instead of 2nd thru 7th (3:15). But I did feel during the last season that the plots were getting too much away from the central characters, and wished they would start over at the beginning. Instead they cancelled it altogether. If you decide to send that letter, I'll second it. /Teri ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 1981 10:36:10-PDT From: CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley Subject: SF-lovers; Animation show I'm not sure about the animation series (the International Animation Festival?) whose host was Jean Marsh, but more important, I can tell you who produced it, if you want to badger your local PBS station into reruns: KQED in San Francisco. And yes, it was really good (remember "Self Service", Bruno Bozetto's story of a mosquito consumer society run amok?), with much overlap with the (probably easier-to-obtain) Nth Annual Torurnees of Animation (for N up to 14 I think now). Steve ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jun 1981 1709-PDT From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE Subject: animal robots, joint authorship The book version of Clash of the Titans will have Bubo, the robot owl (another robot bird). Re joint authorship: there is a book called The Floating Admiral, by Dorothy Sayers, Agatha Christie, etc. -- one chapter per author. To keep themselves honest, each mystery writer was required to have a solution of the puzzle that was consistent with the clues in her/his chapter and the preceding ones. The book works out pretty well....It might be a good idea to do something like this, to keep the story more coherent. (sounds interesting). good reading, --cat ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jun 1981 1720-PDT From: Lynn Gold Subject: Song from SA George, George, George of the Jungle Strong as he can be AAOOHHHH (Tarzan-type yell)! "Watch out for that tree! "Watch out for that (AAOOHHHH -- followed by a loud crash) -- TREE!" --Lynn ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jun 1981 1214-PDT (Wednesday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: G of the J Sigh... let's see if we can get the George of the Jungle theme RIGHT (the version sent in by someone in a previous digest was somewhat mangled). George, George, George of the Jungle Friend to you and me! [Tarzan Yell] Watch out for that tree! George, George, George of the Jungle Lives a life that's free! [Tarzan Yell] Watch out for that tree! When he gets in a scrape He makes his escape With the help of his friend, an A - P - E. Then away he'll schlep, On his elephant Shep While Fella and Bersella stay in step! With... George, George, George of the Jungle Friend to you and me! [Tarzan Yell] Watch out for that tree! Watch out for that... [Yell terminated with SPLAT--ARRRGHHH] Treeeeeeeeeeee... George, George, George of the Jungle -- Friend to you and me! --- --Lauren-- ------------------------------ From: TRB@MIT-MC Date: 06/15/81 10:12:20 Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #151 Dodo definitely exists, as real as you or I. Part of the theme song went: "... with propellers on his heels, antennas on his ears, he's a science fiction pixie from a strange atomic race, DODO, the kid from outer space, DODO!" Dodo was pretty hip, there was an off the wall ingenious scientist, if I correctly recall. The theme music really got your toes tappin'. I watched this in NYC all the time. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 1981 14:02:17 EDT (Monday) From: David Mankins Subject: space angel I can remember watching Space Angel in my early childhood in Missouri (circa 1960). As I recall it was Space Angel himself who had the eye-patch. There was a heavy-set bearded fellow (with a Norse accent?) and a woman on the crew (don't remember their roles). There were some sort of baddies (a la Klingons) with skeletal space-ships. I only remember an episode which involved a race in space, including a grizzled old prospector (Gabby Hayes-like) and his patched-together spaceship (the most realistic space ship in films until the Discovery... lots of lumps and struts...) Sure seemed like fine stuff to a four-year old... ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 1981 1217-PDT (Monday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: Space Angles (sic) Yeah! I remember the "Space Angles" show! It came on right after "Pythagorian Planet!" --Lauren-- P.S. If anyone believes this, may your keyboard melt beneath your fingers... --LW-- ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 1981 10:49:23-EDT From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: kittens in a space suit The story is Arthur Clarke's "The Haunted Spacesuit", a short-short that has appeared in several places. It came out in a mundane magazine as part of a series about life on the first space station. (I keep thinking of the series as a whole being titled "Islands in the Sky", but that's a juvenile novel.) I think "The Sentinel", which was the inspiration for 2001:A SPACE ODYSSEY, came from a similar set of short-shorts about the first flight to the moon (a fine fantasy: U.S., British, and Russian spacecraft leave together from a thriving space station). ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jun 1981 1108-PDT Sender: LEAVITT at USC-ISI Subject: HGWells and science fiction From: Mike Leavitt And even if we can conclude that Wells was in fact anti-science, that has nothing to do with whether what he wrote was science fiction. As someone recently said again (I think it was Baird Searles in IASFM) sf is about people's reaction *to* science. Time Machine and War of the Worlds qualify under that definition in any case. Mike ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jun 1981 20:31:32-PDT From: E.jeffc at Berkeley Subject: No science in science fiction ? Science fiction alone does not suffer from this gross distortion of science. Science-fact shows on television are also guilty of the same crime. COSMOS: I know that I supported this show last November, but after looking at it from this viewpoint, I have changed my mind. There is not one ounce of science in this show. What this show overflows with is MYSTICISM. Sagan's peculiar way of speaking adds to this effect. The problem with Carl Sagan is that he cannot understand the universe, and therefore the answer is to be sought in eastern religions, and stuff like that. He has this obsession with THINGS, such as the billions upon billions upon billions of stars in a galaxy, which the psychodelic animation and music reinforces. As soon as he comes to the frontiers of man's knowledge, he turns into a babbling idiot claiming that anything is possible, and that there is no way for us to know what is reality. Connections: This highly acclaimed series by James Burke fails in task it set out to do - show how science progresses to ever higher and higher levels of understanding of the universe. If you listen to this show, you come away with the impression that all advancements in science come about through accident, luck, circumstances, greed, everything but one - creativity. Nowhere in this series is creativity credited as the cause of scientific advancement. However, it goes deeper than that. The first episode dealt with the power blackout that hit New York, and showed how one little device caused the entire thing. What Burke emphasizes is this: we are at the mercy of our own technology. Something can happen that is totally out of our control and completely destroy everything. Technology has become a trap. Sounds a bit like H.G. Wells. The last episode is not any better. He goes through 4 alternatives that we can follow, everything from going back to the caves to continuing on our present course. He chooses the last one as the lesser of evils, but he does consider it an evil, for we can continue our scientific progress only at the expense of making todays breakneck speed seem like a snail's pace in the future. The emphasis here is that science will outgrow man's ability to comprehend it. In other words, there is a point at which man can no longer understand the universe, a statement I totally disagree with. In Search of: this show starring Leonard Nemoy of Star Trek fame can be classified as "science-fact" only if you take a grain of salt. The show specializes in providing "scientific" evidence that such things as ESP, witchcraft, voodoo, UFO's, and other such things are real. One major way of providing evidence is through a "reconstruction" of what happened, as if by using a lot of special effects and losy actors the "evidence" is made more "valid". The show claims that they are only proposing A solution, and not THE solution, but if that is true, why is the "solution" the show inevitably uses the most anti-scientific possible, and why don't they do a show describing another solution? Jeff ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 20-JUN "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #154 *** EOOH *** Date: 20 JUN 1981 0010-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #154 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Friday, 19 Jun 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 154 Today's Topics: SF Books - Giant Star, SF Movies - Superman II & Raiders of the Lost Ark & Capsule Movie Reviews, SF Topics - Children's stories (Boy's Life stories and Zip Zip the Cat and Here's the Plot,What's the Title) & Computer Animation & Children's TV (Tom Terrific and Banana Man and Rocky and Bullwinkle and Underdog and Gumby and Pokey) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DP@MIT-ML Date: 06/17/81 03:14:12 Subject: brief review- Giant Star by James Hogan New in paper from ballantine, another novel by Hogan. to start it has a very ugly thing in the upper right corner, the price. it is $2.50 for a normal edition. This is another in the "gentle giants" series. Lots of hairy pseudo physics, and a plug for DEC (he hasn't yet realized that he isn't a lab products salesman anymore). This time instead of hi space, he has dimensional tunneling by spinning black holes. He still has much to learn about characterization, as they still turn out one dimensional, despite the fact that several are from the previous "Gentle Giants" story. He cann't even keep them consistent. he has non preadators (the giants) turning into something resembling cowboy/commando/cavalry to make some of the ending work. I also feel something else could have been done to the ending, the coincidences are to unreal and cliche'. He does include a neat crossword tho. the cover features a Darrell Sweet painting of this neat very techie spaceship, complete with reaction drive. However he expends almost a page on the earthmen puzzling out the fact that it had a non-reation gravitic drive. he also has the spectra on the starbow backwards, he has visible red shift in the direction of flight. A neat ship despite the nit. (besides, didn't someone prove that a starbow would not exist?) Jeff ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 1981 0012-PDT From: Lynn Gold Subject: One sentence review - RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK Looks like LucasFilms has finally discovered a way to keep a plot from interfering with their special effects. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 1981 0656-PDT From: Jim McGrath Subject: Superman II Superman II By BOB THOMAS Associated Press Writer SUPERMAN II demonstrates what can be accomplished by practice. While by no means perfect, the new version is far superior to the original. Christopher Reeve and Margot Kidder seem more comfortable in their cliche-ridden roles and can even handle such lines as ''Let's go to my place,'' and, ''I think I'll slip into something more comfortable.'' (Gee whiz, they even bed down together!) Gene Hackman is a tower of strength as the would-be master criminal, and Terence Stamp performs splendidly as leader of the space invaders. The millions who attended the first ''Superman'' should enjoy this even more. Rated PG. [ Superman II begins showing today at your local theatre. -- Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 1981 1120-PDT Sender: GEOFF at SRI-CSL Subject: Superman question. From: the tty of Geoffrey S. Goodfellow What is the name of the "place" where the criminals are banished to? I sorta remember it was called a "zone" of some sort, like perhaps the "Negative Zone"? I remember reading about it in the comic books, but the name slips my mind. Help? [ Yes, the criminals were banished to the "Phantom Zone" (or at least this is what the place is called in the movie). -- Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 1981 0309-PDT From: Jim McGrath Subject: Capsule Movie Reviews ''Outland''-''High Noon'' on the moon, this uncompromising science-fiction thriller stars Sean Connery, Peter Boyle and Frances Stern-hagen. Rated PG. 3 stars. ''Raiders of the Lost Ark''-Here's a movie of glorious imagination and breakneck speed. Harrison Ford plays an understated, stubborn archeologist-adventurer trying to beat the Nazis to the Ark of the Covenant, aided by Karen Allen, a lady of resilient toughness. George (''Star Wars'') Lucas produced, and Steven (''Jaws'') Spielberg directed. Rated PG. 4 stars. ''Superman II''-Christopher Reeve is back as the superhero, trying to establish a quiet life with Lois Lane (Margot Kidder) - but it is not to be. Rated PG. ------------------------------ From: DP@MIT-ML Date: 06/15/81 22:31:38 Subject: SF in BL True, there was a lot of the early Heinlein published in boys life. The clue is a copyright by The Curtis Publishing Co. (it also helps if the story is from the late 40's) Follows is a *partial* list. feel free to add. Space Jockey 1947 The black pits of luna 1947 It's great to be back 1946 The green hills of earth 1947 (boy was I surprised by this one) There were some stranger publishers, would you belive "the long Watch" is copyright 1948 by the American legion? enjoy, Jeff ------------------------------ Date: 9-Jun-81 14:51:33 PDT (Tuesday) From: Sapsford at PARC-MAXC Subject: Re: xeroxing After you scan my originating site you will understand why I bother... Let me point out that xerox is not a verb. [ This message refers to the discussion of postal APAs that took place in volume 3, issue 145. -- Jim ] ------------------------------ Sender: YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO From: MARIAH::LARY 11-JUN-1981 20:31 Subj: More Neuralgia for SFL Gee, with all the nostalgia-freaking going on on the net I'm surprised no-one has mentioned Tom Terrific and his dog, the Mighty Manfred ("Let's go home, Tom") - about the only visual thing about them I remember is that Tom Terrific used to wear some kind of funnel on his head, but Manfred's mournful voice will be with me 'till the grave... ------------------------------ Date: 11 June 1981 1630-EDT From: Gregg Podnar at CMU-10A Subject: Banana Man Goodness, I remember Tom and his faithful dog Manfred. But no one seems to recall the Banana Man with his car-within-car train, his bi-word vocabulary: "Ah...oh..........oh.", and of course the yellow bunches. Podnar@cmua P.S. Would the recent childhood entertainment nostalgia on SFL indicate a need for yet another BB? It seems to be none other than all of us who provide the history of these ephemerals. ------------------------------ Date: 15 June 1981 14:37 edt From: York.Multics at MIT-Multics (William M. York) Subject: Warner Bros cartoons As far as I know, Lantz was never involved in the WB cartoon operation. Robert Clampet directed most of the very early (30's) WB cartoons. He was followed by many others, including Chuck Jones (my personal favorite, still directs some of the low-quality TV special stuff), Fritz Freling (of DePate-Freling/Pink Panther fame), Robert McKimson, and Arthur Davis. While Disney pioneered most of the technical advancements in commercial animation (the multi-plane camera, color, cartoons to music), the people at WB broke away from the pastoral Disney image and made cartoons where the humor is derived from sarcasm and slapstick. When Bugs Bunny first made an appearance, he was much more obnoxious than he has since become. I am an avid fan of WB cartoons, and I think that some of the funniest moments on film were created by the people at WB studios. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jun 1981 1323-PDT From: CSD.JPBion at SU-SCORE (Joel P. Bion) Subject: Reply to "Where is Frostbite Falls" Ah, I can never forget this: "Frostbite Falls", the home of Rocky and Bullwinkle, is located in my dear home state, Minnesota (I wonder if it was a pun on a pretty dead town in northwest Minnesota called Fergus Falls, but I really doubt it...). Also, if you are ever in Minneapolis, be sure to go to "Bullwinkle's Bar". It is easy to spot as it sports a large picture of our favorite moose holding up a large mug of beer. It is located on the University of Minnesota's West Bank. -Joel ------------------------------ Date: 7 June 1981 18:52-EDT From: Dennis L. Doughty Subject: UNDERDOG The arch-criminal's name in Underdog was "Simon Bar Sinister." (Lauren -- wasn't Polly's full name "Sweet Polly Purebred?") Also, the mentor in Tennessee Tuxedo was named Phineas *J.* (not T.) Whoopie. When criminals in this world appear And break the laws that they should fear And frighten all who see or hear The cry goes up from far and near For UNDERDOG (Underdog) UNDERDOG (Underdog) Speed of lightening, roar of thunder Fighting all who rob or plunder... UNDERDOG ...oh oh oh oh... UNDERDOG (Underdog) When in this world the headlines read Of those whose hearts are filled with greed And robbers steal from those who need The cry goes up with blinding speed For UNDERDOG ... etc Can anyone remember the opening to Underdog? I remember the ending of it: Shoeshine Boy (Underdog) accepts a coin from a gentleman, says "Thank you sir," bites it, and the narrator continues... "Little did anyone know, but whenever there was a cry for help (HELP!, HELP! HELP!), Shoeshine Boy became in real life (sic)... UNDERDOG! What comes before? --Dennis ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jun 1981 1210-PDT Sender: WMARTIN at OFFICE-3 Subject: Assorted Short Subjects. From: Amy Newell (through WMartin at Office-3) All of the cartoon talk has brought back 'Gumby' & his horse 'Pokey'. I remember always being terrifically uncomfortable with that show -- even having nightmares about the way they moved & folded in on themselves. Also - a question, does anybody else remember a book called "The Eyes in the Fishbowl" or some thing close to that? Was about people who lived in a department store at night or some such thing. Andre Norton has two juveniles dealing with superior cats from space who come to Earth to rescue and or observe the way we treat our cats here. I just read these a couple of years ago and found them enjoyable. Amy Newell ------------------------------ Date: 1981-5-17-17:18:52.59 From: ALYSON L ABRAMOWITZ AT KIRK Sender: YOUNG@DEC-MARLBORO Subject: Cat Stories People have been talking about Space Cat and other children's sf stories. Maybe someone can remember one of the first SF series I remember reading: ZIP ZIP THE CAT. I remember nothing of the plots except that they sound vaguely like the Space Cat ones people have been describing. The books were oriented at VERY young sf readers, tho. Certainly much younger than kids 'typically' pick up sf reading as a hobby. Anyone remember these books? Alyson ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jun 1981 18:34:51-PDT From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley Subject: Lucasfilms The cover story of the June 15 issue of Newsweek is about "Raiders of the Lost Ark." One part talks about Lucas's plans for computerization. Like his good friend Francis Coppola, Lucas is fascinated by the possibilities of wedding computerization to movie- making, and he has hired 22 specialists from such computer centers as the California Institute of Technology's Jet Propulsion Lab. "Celluloid strips and sprockets are out of date," he declares. "The things people have to worry about, like whether the film will tear or the sound will get out of sync -- it's ridiculous!" Lucas's electronic geniuses are developing a computerized digital printing, editing and sound-mixing system that will free him, he hopes, from his last links with Hollywood -- "the big labs that print thou- sands of copies of the finished film and the big studios that charge a rental fee for distributing the prints. When video takes over," he prophesies, "we won't need labs anymore. 'Revenge of the Jedi' is the last picture we'll shoot on film." Anyone wanna comment/flame on that, especially the last sentence? ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 21-JUN "JPM at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #155 *** EOOH *** Date: 21 JUN 1981 0859-EDT From: JPM at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #155 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Sunday, 21 Jun 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 155 Today's Topics: Administrivia - Changing of the Guard, SF Books - True Names, SF Movies - Raiders of the Lost Ark & Clash of the Titans & Special Effects, SF Theater - Bradbury on Broadway, SF Topics - Compu-fiction & Children's TV (George of the Jungle and Space Angels and Colonel Bleep) & Anti-Sugar, Spoiler - Cyber-SF ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 06/20/81 00:00:00 From: The Moderator Subject: Changing of the Guard For the next 9 weeks I will be touring Europe and Great Britain. Thus Mike Peeler (Admin.MDP@SU-Score) will be assuming the moderatorship of SF-LOVERS. Mike has served briefly in this capacity before, so there should be a minimum of interruption in the flow of conversation occurring in the digest. I will probably assume the moderatorship (there has to be a better word for it!) once again after the 1981 WorldCon (which I will be attending), approximately September 15. Till then, here's wishing each and every one of you a great summer! Please remember that all digest submissions should still be sent to SF-LOVERS@MIT-AI, while all messages concerning administrative problems should be sent to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@MIT-AI. Jim ------------------------------ Date: 19 June 1981 02:51-EDT From: Richard M. Stallman Has anyone else read True Names, by Vernor Vinge? It has just come out, in a book called Binary Star, and it captures very realistically the nature of being a hacker, some time in the future. It's the first time I've seen anyone else recognize the similarity between the world inside computers and magic. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 1981 17:46:20 EDT (Thursday) From: David Mankins Subject: RotLA [RotLA => Raiders of the Lost Ark] Look, if John Carter of Mars is science fiction, then this is a reasonable topic for this mailing list. Milli-review: (from the June 16 Boston Phoenix: For all its dash an brio, [RotLA] is a sweetly modest undertaking-- a pinball machine of a movie that sparks and buzzes and claims no other earthly goal than to give us a good time. This it accomplishes handily....it is at once comfortably familiar and absolutely new, a wild assemblage of bric-a-brac and spare parts that suddenly, unexpectedly takes off into the stratosphere. Only an American-- or rather a pair of Americans--could have built such a marvelous toy. It's the sort of gimcrack Tom Swift might have hammered together had he vacationed, between semesters, in Hollywood... The review goes on to give lots of spoilers, but also mentions that, in true Lucas style, "Raiders has been planned as part of a series of films, all centering on the exploits of one Indiana Jones, an impossibly dashing archaeology professor. Set in 1936, Raiders is meant to be CHAPTER THREE in the saga of Indy..." Sigh, I hope we see how these 3-years-per-chapter serials end before the lunatics in Washington and Moscow incinerate the rest of us... ------------------------------ Date: 19 June 1981 02:48-EDT From: Richard M. Stallman I went to see CLOT (a couple of kids just HAD to see it and I was dragged along). When I first saw Bubo, I thought: You want my life to become BORING, don't you? ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 1981 0308-PDT From: Jim McGrath Subject: Special Effects By BOB THOMAS Associated Press This is the summer of the special effects, and that worries Ray Harryhausen, distinguished practitioner of that magical science. ''Clash of the Titans,'' for which Harryhausen provided a menagerie of mythological creatures, is joining other warm-weather attractions featuring visual wizardry: ''Raiders of the Lost Ark,'' ''Outland,'' ''Dragonslayer,'' ''Superman II,'' etc. ''I'm worried about all this concentration on special effects,'' admits Harryhausen. ''It breeds the seeds of its own destruction. ''The problem is over-exposure and too much concentration on effects for the sake of effects. I'm also concerned about the large amount of publicity about how effects are accomplished. I have been noted for my closed-mouth attitude. I've always reasoned that when a magician explains how he saws a woman in half, the illusion is destroyed. ''The thing that started me in the business was the first 'King Kong.' I had to learn how those tricks were done, and by the time I did, I was hooked. That same wonderment that I felt about 'King Kong' is important to the enjoyment of films of fantasy today. Then why does he submit to interviews? ''Because if I don't talk about the picture, it might not get talked about.'' Ray Harryhausen is not exactly a marquee name, but he is lionized at conventions of fans of science fiction movies. His career dates back to the 1949 ''Mighty Joe Young,'' which won him an Oscar for his animation of a junior King Kong. With the 1955 ''It Came from Beneath the Sea,'' Harryhausen began his long association with producer Charles Schneer. For the past 20 years, Schneer and Harryhausen have worked in Europe, creating such fantasies as ''Mysterious Island,'' ''Jason and the Argonauts,'' ''The Golden Voyage of Sinbad'' and ''Sinbad and th Eye of the Tiger.'' A native Californian, Harryhausen lives in London with his English wife. Harryhausen's particular magic is the animation of three-dimensional figures. He doesn't like to call it animation, because that sounds like cartoon work. After such tags as ''dynamation'' and ''dynarama,'' he now favors ''kinetic sculpture.'' By any name it is tedious, exacting work, photographed one frame at a time -- and there are 24 frames per movie second. ''Clash of the Titans,'' which MGM is releasing via United Artists, is the most ambitious Schneer-Harryhausen film so far--a $16-million adventure with Laurence Olivier as Zeus, Claire Bloom as Hera, Maggie Smith as Thetis and Ursula Andress type-cast as Aphrodite. Among the mortals, Harry Hamlin stars as Perseus. Another major cast member was Medusa, the snake-coiffed lady who was Harryhausen's biggest headache. ''Cellini had sculpted her as a normal woman with snakes on her head,'' cited Harryhausen. ''That wasn't enough for us; we had to use our imaginations to create someone more dramatic. After all, if Medusa had the power to turn people to stone, she had to look horrendous. ''I gave her a serpentine body and an exotic face of someone who had been a beauty before she developed this skin problem. Using human bone structure, I made her hideous with undertones of beauty.'' The live action with the actors was shot first, then Harryhausen animated Medusa - ''with 12 snakes, heads and tails, that meant 24 moves even before I got to the face.'' Other beasts hindering Perseus from his rescue of Andromeda (Judi Bowker) include a two-headed dog and the sea dragon Kraken. But then, Harryhausen also gave Perseus his winged horse Pegasus to even the match. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 1981 2131-PDT From: Jim McGrath Subject: Bradbury on Broadway By JAY SHARBUTT AP Arts Writer NEW YORK (AP) - Ray Bradbury was born in 1920 in Waukegan, Ill. He sold his first short story 21 years later. Then he commenced becoming one of America's major science-fiction writers. Now, it turns out sci-fi isn't his only bag. He's taken to writing plays, one of which, a comedy called ''The Wonderful Ice Cream Suit,'' just opened off-Broadway down at the Bouwerie Lane Theatre. About six young Mexican-Americans who each kick in $10 for a new suit they take turns wearing, it's one of the earliest shows Bradbury wrote after deciding to have a go at playwrighting. ''I did it about 18 years ago, along with a series of Irish plays that I wrote to test myself and see if I really wanted to write plays,'' he said by phone from his Los Angeles home. ''We'd have readings, with friends like James Whitmore and Struther Martin doing the parts, and the response - well, it just encouraged me to continue. So I did just that.'' He suspects the whole thing actually began ''because I'd been getting mail from college students around the country, kids turning some of my stories into plays. I thought, 'Why should they have all the fun?' '' He estimates that since ''Suit'' and the Irish works, he's written 30 plays, including stage versions of his acclaimed ''The Martian Chronicles'' and ''Farenheit 451.'' Many of them, he says, are performed at a tiny 99-seat theater he owns near Dodger Stadium in Los Angeles, the shows produced at minimal cost but getting major cheers from the LA critics. He's currently working with composer Billy Goldenberg - tunesmith for Broadway's ''Ballroom'' two seasons ago - on a new edition of a Bradbury musical that briefly played New York a few years ago. It's ''Dandelion Wine.'' He says it's based on a novel of his ''about growing up in northern Illinois, of a child's sense of loss and change and having to adjust to the realities of life.'' It was first performed at a small theater tucked away in a corner of Lincoln Center here and ran three weekends. Major producers came, saw and loved it, he said. But it never moved to Broadway. ''Hard to explain why,'' Bradbury mused. ''They all said they loved it, but when you go out to raise money, well, the lovers are not there. So we couldn't do anything with it.'' With ''Suit'' bowing here Thursday, preceded by ''Wine'' and another off-Broadway piece, ''The World of Ray Bradbury,'' he jokingly claims he's ''creeping up on Broadway. ''But actually, I'd be content to stay off-Broadway, to get the sort of audiences that know and like my work. It'd be nice to get two or three productions going and stay there. ''I'm fearful of all the pressure on Broadway, where the budgets are so big, $300,000 and more for a play, $1 million and up for a musical. I don't mind spending my money, but I wouldn't want to be responsible for the money of others. ''It's terrible, all that responsibility. I want to stay healthy. And so, I'd rather stay small.'' ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 19 Jun 1981 10:38-PDT Subject: Joint authorship From: Jim Gillogly (Jim at Rand-UNIX) at RAND-UNIX Sender: jim at RAND-UNIX I disagree with OR.TOVEY's slightly favorable review (V3 #153) of The Floating Admiral, by Sayers, Christie, Chesterton, et al. It was an interesting idea, but (as you might expect) lacked coherence. Further, (as you might expect) only the chapters by good authors were well written. Sayers put some good clues into her part that I picked up on but the subsequent authors did not -- rather frustrating. I found it much inferior to random mysteries. Consistent editing might have helped it, though, pulling together loose ends and smoothing interfaces. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 1981 1341-PDT From: Friedland at SUMEX-AIM Subject: George theme song As long as the last message pleaded for accuracy, I feel the need to make two amendments. It is: ... with the help of his friend an ape NAMED APE ... and ... while Fellah and Pursula stay in step ... Peter ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 1981 1153-PDT From: Richard Pattis Subject: Scott McCloud...Space Angel & Friends Space Angel was Scott McCloud. His crewmates were Crystal and Taurus (sp?). Also, Crystal's father was the head of some triangular tubed space station, out of which rockets were shot. One of the episodes I remember clearly was about a teenage genius who invented and antigravity device so that his friend could win a local soapbox derby contest. Rich ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jun 1981 16:59:55-PDT From: decvax!duke!unc!bch at Berkeley Subject: Colonel Bleep, Time For Beany, etc. A few notes (as I remember them) on the origins of Colonel Bleep: The series was the product of an animation group in Florida -- possibly Rainbow studios in Miami. It was created no earlier than 1958 and no later than 1961. While somewhat innovative in that the main protagonist was an alien, it was not the first sf cartoon. Tom Terrific (if you want to call that sf) predates it by a number of years in its original incarnation as part of Captain Kangaroo. Time For Beany was reincarnated for Saturday mornings as part of Matty's Funday Funnies. It's original form was a filmed (or kinescoped) puppet series in the early '50s. Byron Howes University of North Carolina ------------------------------ Date: 1981-6-12-09:47:49.70 Sender: YOUNG at DEC-MARLBORO From: Steve Lionel at STAR Subject: Left-handed sugar Those who have been discussing "left-handed sugars" in past SFL issues might want to take a look at the July/August "Science 81". A short item on page 6 tells how left-handed sugars were always thought to be bitter tasting, but Gilbert Levin, a bioengineer working on a NASA experiment to test for life on Mars, discovered that it was in reality just as sweet as "right-handed sugar"; the bitterness was ascribed to impurities. Levin patented the use of the mirror sugar, and hopes to see it in soft drinks, food, etc. The major obstacle is that there is not yet an economical method of producing the substance; Levin hopes that genetic engineering will yield a technique. (The same issue features articles on an automatic $30K DNA machine, and on Martin Gardner.) I was surprised that I didn't see anyone mention my favorite "mirror image" SF story, "MirrorrorriM" by Spider Robinson, a "Callahan's Place" tale. Part of the story tells how Callahan's vilest, most awful whiskey tastes like the best whiskey ever to a guy from a mirror world. Not only that, but some booze that the guy brought with him, which he thinks is awful, tastes great to Callahan's patrons. The story's in the new "Time Travellers Strictly Cash". Steve Lionel ------------------------------ JPM@MIT-AI 6/20/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last in the digest. It reveals some plot details involving the novel "The Invincible" ,by Stanislaw Lem. Those unfamilar with this work may not wish to read any further. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 1981 1059-PDT From: Achenbach at SUMEX-AIM Subject: "Natural" robots, a spoiler (sigh!) "The Invincible" by Stanislaw Lem describes a world on which robots have evolved to the point that they wiped out all land based normal life, by filling ecological niches. This is a spoiler, because the discovery of this fact is mostly the point of the book. /Mike ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 22-JUN "MDP at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #156 *** EOOH *** Date: 22 JUN 1981 1944-EDT From: MDP at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #156 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Monday, 22 Jun 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 156 Today's Topics: Administrivia, SF Books - Rare SF Poll, Query - What is Fab?, Reply - The Haunted Space-Suit, SF Movies - Lucas comment & Raiders of the Lost Ark, SF Topics - Xerox (TM) & Breathable liquids ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: June 22, 1981 00:00:00 From: MDP@MIT-AI Subject: Administrivia As most of you know, I am filling in for Jim McGrath, our regular Moderator, who will spend this summer traveling around Europe. SF lovers have sent in a lot of material of late, and several digests' worth of messages, dating back to the beginning of May, has built up. I will draw from the backlog in groups of related messages which may span long periods of time. This need not affect your submissions. The latest, most exciting and most pressing issues I will continue to run immediately. When you have something to say, say it! Thank you, Mike Peeler ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 1981 (Saturday) 1802-EDT From: PLATTS at WHARTON-10 (Steve Platt) Subject: Comments on Rare SF list Well, I've sent out my response to the SF-RARE list, and have now had some time to sit back and think about the list. I have come the conclusion that the list is totally arbitrary, and as such, meaningless. For the most part, the list consists of books individuals have suggested as being "rare", with little or no thought as to what makes them rare. Perhaps an old copy in their collection, or they are having trouble finding any in used bookstores? Who knows? (My only entry in this list was one of what I found to be a fascinating book which is, to my knowledge, out of print and has been so for some time.) Some of the entries are of dubious quality, many others are still readily available. Were I to make a new set of suggestions for this list, I could easily fill up a message with the ilk of Joseph Milard's "The Gods Hate Kansas", a very weak book (to say the least) printed circa 1965. I'm quite sure this volume would qualify as "rare", I doubt any of you (with perhaps 1 or 2 exceptions) have even *heard* of it, let alone read it. Does this make the book rare? No. If you really insist on continuing along this line, I suggest having each participant type in the titles of each volume in his/her collection, and eliminating anything which occurs more than times. I am quite sure this would leave a large set of low-quality out-of-print volumes, none worthy of the title "rare". I hope instead that the SF-RARE people will edit the list accordingly; as we (the reviewers) have graded the volumes we've seen as poor to excellent, to just save the cream of the crop as "rare". Another point -- the concept of "rareness" expressed here is quite relative. When discussing this list with a friend, he remarked that there were probably over 100000 copies of some of these books outstanding, !in the possession of anyone who had been a member of the SF Book Club in the 50's and 60's! As most of us are somewhat younger than this, it nicely points out the limitations of our views. In summary, I suggest that we restart, examining first what it is that makes a book rare, and then begin researching the topic. -Steve ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 1981 1537-PDT Sender: GEOFF at SRI-CSL Subject: I just got thru watching Thunderbirds To the Resuce on HBO... From: the tty of Geoffrey S. Goodfellow ..and just about every time they got thru saying something on the radio they ended it with "FAB". Is this British for "roger" or "over"? I've never heard it used before and am curious as to what it's suppose to mean or stand for. ------------------------------ Date: 18-Jun-1981 From: JOHN FRANCIS AT EIFFEL at METOO Subject: Here's the title... In answer to an earlier query, the story about a cat having kittens inside a spacesuit is "The Haunted Space-Suit", and it is by Arthur C. Clarke (NOT Heinlein!). This story can be found in the excellent anthology "Fifty Short Science Fiction Tales" edited by Isaac Asimov & Groff Conklin. Re Thunderbirds query about the meaning of F.A.B. : beats me !!!!!! Neither I or my wife can remember there being any meaning to it, but that does not prove anything. Maybe it stand for "Full Ahead Both"? ----John. ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jun 1981 1541-PDT From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE Subject: Lucas comment So "Revenge of the Jedi will be the last movie we shoot on film". This may sound odd coming from an electrical engineer, but what the movie industry does NOT need is more and slicker hardware. That's just following the old path of replacing intelligence with money. Lucas has plenty of both so he can make good use of this gimcrackery, but the rest of the industry does not. "Star Trek: The Motion Picture" is the prime example. There were enough experts in the effects department to give it all the flashes and bangs anyone could want, and enough experts in marketing to promote it heavily enough to make money, but nobody there seemed to know that cruising around this model of the Enterprise for five minutes was simply dull. They replaced dramatic values with technical ones and so blew off forty million dollars. We don't need better means of producing bright lights and noises; we need more stories that we can live in with characters that we care about. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 1981 0035-PDT From: Mark Crispin Subject: Raiders of the Lost Ark & Is "xerox" a verb? I was amused by RotLA, but I won't see it a second time, much less the multiple times I've seen Star Wars or the RHPS. Perhaps being too acquainted with the Judeo-Christian mythology spoiled it; e.g. the ending was totally pagan. Other parts were a bit excessive. I guess if you like mysticism, you'll love RotLA. Oh yeah - I noticed at the theatre I went to that there were people in the front shouting at the screen RHPS-style; perhaps Lucas has unintentionally brought forth a new cult classic? I claim that as a result of common usage "xerox" is a verb. "Tape" was originally not a verb, but usage has made it perfectly acceptable for people to speak of "taping" an event as meaning "to record on magnetic tape media." There is no way that XEROX (TM) can possibly prevent "xerox" being used as a verb in colloquial usage. I believe that if XEROX (TM) is smart, they'd be pleased by this colloquial usage, because people who have a need to "xerox" often enough to want to buy a "xeroxing" machine may well be subtly inclined to consider XEROX (TM) over and above other vendors (such as IBM, which makes fine copiers themselves) in their purchase. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 1981 14:24:12-EDT From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: "xerox is not a verb" Oh? Xerox may be trying to claim this, but it's a losing battle, like those insisting on the capitalization of "kleenex" and "jeep". "Xerox" is fairly broadly accepted as a synonym for "copy electrostatically". ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 1981 0058-EDT From: HEDRICK at RUTGERS Subject: trademarks Here is a question for those who know the details about correct legal terminology (e.g. "copy with a Xerox brand copier" instead of "xerox"): Now that DOD has made Ada a trademark, are we going to find ourselves programming "in the Ada brand programming language?" ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 1981 0925-PDT From: Achenbach at SUMEX-AIM Subject: xeroxing From Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary (1977 edition) xerox -- verb transitive often capitalized (Xerox): to copy on a Xerox machine. Don't know what your lawyers think, but it looks like your a part of the language. /Mike ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 1981 2011-EDT From: JoSH Subject: breathable liquids A breathable liquid (or gas if it existed) with a density near that of water would make a great acceleration couch--the idea goes back to Verne, who didn't get it quite right in From Earth to Moon... I first saw it done right in some story I think in Analog I can't remember very well at all, where "pseudofluid" is used. Anybody know the reference or an earlier one? ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 1981 15:19 edt From: JSLove at MIT-Multics (J. Spencer Love) Subject: Breathing Water Sender: JSLove.PDO at MIT-Multics The problem with breathing water, or liquid, has another twist to it. I'm told that people drown faster in fresh water than in salt water because IONS diffuse out of the blood into the water faster than oxygen is used up or lost, and that if you try to breath real hard you will die of electrolyte imbalance a minute or two sooner than otherwise. Does anyone know more about this than I do? In particular, is this problem addressed by adding electrolytes to the liquid inhaled, or by using a fluid that just won't dissolve the ions in human blood? If such a fluid has a specific gravity close to that of the human body (and in this I don't know if I mean muscle, fat, bone, or some weighted average), it might be very useful in withstanding high accelerations. Clearly, this doesn't come anywhere close to dealing with the tidal forces found in Dragon's Egg or Neutron Star, but how much might be possible? 20 gravities? 50? 100? Some research is being done into electromagnetic catapults that might throw payloads into orbit, from either the Earth or the Moon. Accelerations mentioned have topped 1000 gravities. This would seem to preclude the use of such a mechanism to carry passengers, but perhaps not. How much might a suitably prepared (but revivable) human withstand in the way of acceleration? ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 1981 0805-PDT (Wednesday) From: Mike at UCLA-SECURITY (Michael Urban) Subject: Breathing Underwater In Children's Books When L. Frank Baum got sick and tired of writing about Oz around 1911, he wrote a couple of "Borderland of Oz" stories which introduced two characters named Trot and Cap'n Bill. These books were only marginally successful, and he soon bowed to the inevitable and migrated the characters to Oz in "The Scarecrow of Oz." Anyway, in the first of these books, "The Sea Fairies", T & CB are taken on a (typically Baumanian) very episodic guided tour of an underwater realm by a group of mermaids. In order to permit their survival there, they are transformed to mermaids. How do they breathe? Seems that mermaids "magically" maintain a very thin layer of air around their bodies, extracted from the water around them constantly. This allows them to remain dry, too, by the way, and I think even do nifty things like light matches, etc. The evil villain Zog takes the alternative approach; he gives his human servant fish-like gills. "The Sea Fairies" is one of Baum's better fantasies. Maybe Random House (who own both Reilly & Lee and Ballantine) will see fit to reprint it one of these years. Mike ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 1981 13:08:20-PDT From: ihuxi!agk at Berkeley Subject: Breathable water In V3, #118, SHRAGE asked about a breathable fluid. This fluid is featured in the current issue of either NEXT magazine or Science 81 (I just finished reading both). The stuff is used in Japan as an experimental substitute for blood -- nice because it has no "type" and will store for two months instead of two weeks (for whole blood). Experimenters in both the US and Japan have replaced the blood of rats with the stuff and the animals live normally. One dog littered twice (and was arrested both times) after living on the stuff for a couple of days. The article also has a photograph of a very soggy mouse that was dunked in the stuff for a while, and another photo of a very pale mouse (white eyes, white ears, etc. -- an albino would have been pink instead of red, but not this bizarre white) with the stuff flowing in its veins. I can't recall the name of the stuff beyond S------. I'll try to dig up the article when I get home. Here's blood in your veins, andy kegel ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 1981 22:09:16-PDT From: CSVAX.wildbill at Berkeley Subject: Underwater Breathing There is a good chance that Chip is thinking of Leigh Brackett's novelette "Enchantress of Venus" when he mentions "Carter on Venus" in SFL #119. In this story, Eric John Stark (Brackett's Carter clone) is on the lam from the local law, and winds up enslaved by the local high-tech wizards who are performing excavations in what is known thereabouts as the "Red Sea". Although no specific details about the composition of the fluid can be found (this being primarily a work of fantasy), it seems that the fluid is imperfect in that humans can only survive for a few years in it. Those interested in further details can find this story in the Ballantine/Del Rey book, \\The Best of Leigh Brackett//. ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 1981 17:50:26 EDT (Wednesday) From: Ward Harriman Subject: funny water which animals can breath. I remember some Onion Carbine 'tube commercials which kind of went: In the Voice of the commercial: One of our scientists was doing basic research on a new solvent. He had a tank of it and put several items into the tank, he put a radio in it, and it didn't do anything. he put a bunch of fruit in it, and it didn't do anything. he put a rat in it and it didn't do anything. and what's so remarkable about this solvent? IT DIDN'T DO ANYTHING.......TO ANYTHING! just thought I'd flash some old memories. ward ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 1981 17:41:38 EDT (Thursday) From: Morris Keesan Subject: Breathable liquids "Ocean on Top" by Hal Clement takes place in a liquid environment which is "breathable". That's in quotes because people living in it absorb oxygen from it through their lungs, but don't actually breathe. It's too viscous and under too much to be moved by the human diaphragm (which is good, because that makes it swimmable in), but oxygen is bound loosely enough in its molecules and in a high enough concentration that people get sufficient oxygen by diffusion. This book (DAW book No. 57) was published in 1973, with a magazine serial version in 1967. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 23-JUN "MDP at MIT-ML" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #157 *** EOOH *** Date: 23 JUN 1981 1954-EDT From: MDP at MIT-ML Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #157 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Tuesday, 23 Jun 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 157 Today's Topics: SF Books - Breathable liquids & Parallel time plot query, SF Humor - Ann Atomic #2, SF Topics - Tom is Terrific & No 300 million year civilizations, SF Movies - UFO's Are Real & Outlands & Raiders/The Ark ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 June 1981 2106-EDT (Monday) From: Joe.Newcomer at CMU-10A Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #156 I recall a liquid acceleration couch being described in Haldeman's "The Forever War", and I believe the liquid was breathable. ------------------------------ From: PCR@MIT-MC Subject: breathing liquids It would seem to me that animals breathing liquids would get tired real fast, from the effort of trying to move the liquid in and out through those small nose passages. The liquid would have to be extremely non-viscous (what's the word for that?), or else the animals would end up breathing through their mouth. In any event, their diaphram would tire out in short order. Eating might be a problem too. ...phil ------------------------------ Date: 05/15/81 01:53:57 From: MIKE@MIT-MC Subject: Another here's the plot so what is it... I have been trying to remember the title of a short story I read a number of years ago and where I found it. It was in some kind of collection. The story was about a region of countryside that was coexisting with a number of parallel earths. One could walk into these various zones from the outside but could not necessarily get back. To make it more fun, there were different rates of time in some of the zones. The story involved a man and his wife who for some reason wandered into this region and became separated. The man slipped through into several of these zones (one of which I remember as being medieval but not exactly) and finally was rescued by being lifted out by a helicopter by the military I think. His wife was trapped in some zone with a different rate of time (faster) and he seeks only to find her aged tombstone. Does anyone out there know what or where this story is? ------------------------------ Date: 15 May 1981 0905-PDT Sender: Daul at OFFICE From: Andrews Subject: Dr. Ann Atomic #2 Another punful story about that famous space physician.. Cat Cause Ann Atomic's home on Observation Asteroid had been invaded by large half-robot, half-organic rodents. These cyborg-rats avoided people, poison, traps, magnets, and cats, but had no fear of the ten-week-old kitten. Osgood Ascanby was regaling Ann with stories from his years as a galactic protocol expert when the kitten entered, yowling and running back and forth in a distracting manner. "What's the matter with Theocat, Ann?" Osgood asked. "Is he trying to tell us something?" "Oh, just ignore him," she sighed. "he's full of sound and furry, but signifying nothing." At that moment the rat whizzed into the parlor, bit Theocat on the tail, and whizzed out. "There, there, poor baby," Osgood said, trying to comfort the distraught kitten. "We must stop their tormenting him." "I suppose your're right." Ann gazed thoughtfully out the window at Jupiter, the current view. Within the week cyborg-rats had disappeared. Theocat, no longer terrorized, was his old , obnoxious, furniture-scratching self. "The patter of little metal feet is gone but not forgotten," Osgood remarked as he removed the kitten's claws from his sleeve. "How did you get rid of the rats?" Ann shrugged. "With drugs. I used massive doses of antibionics." ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 1981 06:03:44-PDT From: decvax!duke!unc!tyg at Berkeley Subject: Ann Atomic and Tom Terrific Ann Atomic sounds alot like an ex-girlfriend of mine who used to give suggestions to the library here under the pseudonym of "The Mad Punster". Any relation? Since i started this whole thing about Sat. morning with a request for Astroboy let me try to get some info about a favorite of my infancy. Anyone remember Tom Terrific (with MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER DOG!!!!)? As i recall it came on on Channel One of a TV set in Captain Kangaroo's show. Tom had a thinking cap which gave him ideas and Mighty Manfred fell asleep alot. One of the advantages of having a common first name like mine; i got turned on to Tom Terrific and Tom Swift Jr. due to similarities in naming. These things got me started on the road to total insanity/inanity i travel on today. tom galloway at unc-ch ------------------------------ Date: 16 May 1981 11:04-EDT From: Dale R. Worley Subject: Anybody out there? There was an article in a recent Physics Today that argues that there are no civilizations in the galaxy more than about 300 million years older than us. The argument runs like this: If we want to broadcast a message that we exist across the galaxy, the most efficient way is to build a spaceship / space factory / computer that will fly into a stellar system, gobble up asteroids, etc., make a number of copies of itself, and launch them toward other stars. The author claims that we will be able to build such a thing in a hundred years or so that could travel at 0.0001c. The nice thing about this message is that it picks up new "strength" by eating things along the way. If you wanted to get the message there faster, you could make plans for an extremely expensive one that could travel at 0.01c, put the plans in a cheaper one that could go at 0.0001c, and send it off. It would take tens of thousands of years for the first one to complete its voyage, but all the future ones would go much faster. The ultimate idea is that it would take only about 300 million years for such a device to propagate copies of itself throughout the galaxy. Since we are nearly (100 years) able to launch such a thing, if anyone is 300 million years or so older than us, we would already have gotten their message. Clearly, there are alot of objections that can be raised to this idea, but are any of them good enough to invalidate the basic point? ------------------------------ Date: 14 May 1981 2223-EDT From: FISCHER at RUTGERS Subject: Recent discussions with ET's... I am not a UFO nut, now that that's out of the way... A few days ago I was at a friend's house and caught the end of a movie on the HBO channel called "UFO's are Real" (har har). It was your typical wow-lets-cash-in-on-this production of no real note. As far as I can tell it is not a recent film. Only one thing caught my interest. In the midst of the babblings of various interviewees a certain UFO enthusiast mentioned a document written by a gentleman in switzerland who claimed to have had lengthly discussions with aliens from the Pleiades. The Pleiadians supposedly reassured him they were not gods and proceeded to spend long afternoons discussing matters of earth with him in a grassy field somewhere. OK, silly you say, well the interesting part is that the guy is supposed to have collected around 2000 pages of notes! They were described as containing info about new technologies and the immaturity of our human culture. Some portion of the notes (they said about a quarter) were translated into english and published. The enthusiast in the movie held up a large format paper back book with a white cover. The only discernable word on it was Pleiades. This sounds like a tech oriented person's Von Daniken. Has anyone out there ever seen this book? Read it? What was this swiss person's flamage about?? ------------------------------ Date: 22 June 1981 09:02-EDT From: Steven C. Bagley Subject: Outland's rating "Outland"-"High Noon" on the moon, this uncompromising science fiction thriller stars Sean Connery, Peter Boyle and Frances Stern-hagen. Rated PG. 3 stars. I could have sworn that the version I saw was rated R. I have seen the above review at least twice in SFL -- both times the rating was listed as PG. Am I going crazy or are there two versions of Outland out? ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 1981 13:17:58-PDT From: decvax!duke!ndd at Berkeley I haven't seen this mentioned in the digest yet, and my curiosity has gotten the best of me. In the movie, the manager of the Io mines was told that \three/ assassins were being sent to get the marshall, but I only saw two. The third man who tried to kill Connery was, I believe, one of his own men. Did I miss something, or is this a real goof? Ned Danieley ------------------------------ Date: 22 June 1981 23:47-EDT From: Daniel G. Shapiro Subject: lucas comments yeah, but bright lights and gimcrackery don't hurt. (agreed, most special effects films have that monomania hollywood is so famous for... where one thing is done to the exclusion of all others.) Dan Shapiro ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jun 1981 1816-PDT From: First at SUMEX-AIM Subject: Seams in RotLA (NO SPOILER!) I don't need to add to the accolades which have poured in regarding "Raiders"--I'm sure anybody out there who hasn't seen it yet must have it on top of the queue of films to see. But for those who haven't seen it, plan to see it again, or have a good visual memory, see if you can corroborate this observation... In films as slick as RotLA, I find it fun sometimes to see if I can find any embarrassing technical flaws in the production--while errors in editing, post-synchronous sound dubbing, and continuity abound in such classics as "Plan Nine From Outer Space", because of the technical mastery of current Hollywood films, such flaws are relatively uncommon... As far as RotLA is concerned, I think I spotted an error in continuity (which are probably the most embarrassing types of errors that can occur): when Harrison Ford is driving the truck and gets shot in the arm and is then forced outside the truck, he magically has recovered from his bloody wound, only to regain it again a couple of minutes later--obviously what has happened is that they neglected to inflict the "wound" (in left upper arm) on his stunt double--hence its disappearance and then reappearance. Did anybody else spot this or was I just hallucinating from the overdose of pure joy in seeing such a spectacular film? (For the non-film buffs in the crowd, "continuity" refers to the maintenance of temporal consistency in scenes which are shot out of sequence--one of the most blatant lags in continuity in recent memory is in "The Goodbye Girl"-- there is a scene in which Richard Dreyfuss wanders home drunk, knocks over a coffee table with plates on top of it, and then leans his head outside his window to yell. When he comes back in, the coffee table is magically upright with the knocked over dishes re-assembled. Maintaining continuity is so important that there is a person assigned to the film whose job is exclusively to check the continuity--but sometimes they slip up) --Michael (FIRST@SUMEX-AIM) ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jun 1981 1350-EDT From: HEDRICK at RUTGERS Subject: a brief history of the Ark Because of the popularity of "Raiders of the Lost Ark", I thought some people might find it interesting to hear a brief description of what is known about the actual Ark of the Covenant. As far as I know, everything we know about it comes from the Bible. Quotations and terminology will be taken from the Good News Bible (as that is the only translation appropriate for people who are not familiar with the Biblical tradition). They call the object the Covenant Box, since the word "ark" is no longer in use, and what it means is "box". The initial command to make it comes shortly after Moses has received the Ten Commandments on Mt. Sinai. This is probably around 1250 B.C.E. It is described in Exodus 25 as a box 45" long, 27" wide, and 27" high. It is covered with gold, with two winged creatures made out of gold attached to the lid of the box. The two stone tablets with the Ten Commandments on it are put inside the box. That is probably the only thing that is in the box, though it is also possible that there was a sample of manna. The Covenant Box was carried around by priests. They carried it with the Israelites as they wandered around in the desert, and sometimes they carried it with troops when they went to battle. An example of the former is in Joshua 3-4. Here the Israelites need to cross the Jordan River. "When the people left the camp to cross the Jordan, the priests went ahead of them, carrying the Covenant Box. As soon as the priests stepped into the river, the water stopped flowing and piled up, far upstream..." [Josh 3:15-16.] An example of the latter is in 1 Samuel 4-6. The Israelites were fighting the Philistines. They brought the Covenant Box out with the army. Unfortunately the Philistines still won the battle, and they captured and carried off the Covenant Box. However holding it turned out to be a mistake: It caused their idol of Dagon to keep falling down, and as punishment, the God of Israel caused the Philistines to come down with what is probably bubonic plague. The Philistines finally get sufficiently scared that they return the Box. Interestingly, the Israelites to whom they return it don't want it either. It is not the sort of thing one wants to leave lying about. "The LORD killed seventy of the men of Beth Shemesh because they looked into the Covenant Box". [1 Sam 6:19.] The Nazis should probably have given this some thought before trying to take it back to Berlin. Eventually King David took the Covenant Box to Jerusalem, his new capital. [about 1010 B.C.E., see 2 Samuel 6.] During the trip to Jerusalem, "the oxen stumbled, and Uzzah reached out and took hold of the Covenant Box [to steady it?]. At once the LORD God became angry with Uzzah and killed him because of his irreverence." [probable text - Hebrew for "his irreverence" is unclear] [2 Sam 6:6-7.] David's son, King Solomon, built a Temple, and had the Box put in a special room at the center of the Temple. [about 960 B.C.E.] This is the last definite information about the Covenant Box. There is one more reference to it: Jeremiah the prophet wrote the following. Apparently it was written after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians in 587 B.C.E. It is part of a passage where he is trying to give them hope that Jerusalem and the nation of Israel will be restored. "Unfaithful people, come back.... I will bring you back to Mount Zion ... Then when you have become numerous in that land, people will no longer talk about my Covenant Box. They will no longer think about it or remember it; they will not even need it, nor will they make another one." [Jer 3:14-16.] This certainly implies that the Covenant Box was lost or destroyed by that time. Many scholars believe that the Babylonians took it when they destroyed Jerusalem in 587. Possibly they even destroyed it, e.g. maybe they removed the gold covering it and destroyed the box itself. I don't know anything about the tradition that it was taken to Egypt. It doesn't sound likely to me, but I am no archaeologist. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 25-JUN "MDP at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #158 *** EOOH *** Date: 25 JUN 1981 2042-EDT From: MDP at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #158 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 25 Jun 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 158 Today's Topics: SF Books - Infinite Summer & Heinlein/Curtis Publishing & Wizards poll & SF animals & Animal robots, SF Topics - "That does not compute" & Space civilizations & ILM, SF Movies - Message from Pleiades & History of the World & TRS-80/Star Trek & Light sabers & RotLA flaws & The Phantom Zone & Superman II, Spoiler - Superman II ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 23 Jun 1981 17:24 PDT From: Woods at PARC-MAXC Subject: re: Here's the plot... cc: Mike at MC Mike's query, about the story involving a park in which time runs at different rates in different places, was dated in mid-May, so perhaps by now he has his answer. To be certain about it, however, I'll point out that this sounds exactly like a story mentioned in one of the recent Algis Budrys columns. I believe it was described as being in the collection "An Infinite Summer" by Christopher Priest, but you might check the SFL archives to be sure. -- Don. ------------------------------ Date: 22 JUN 1981 1027-PDT From: PEDERSEN at USC-ECL Subject: Heinlein & Curtis Publishing The Heinlein short stories mentioned (Space Jockey, The Green Hills of Earth, etc) were indeed published by Curtis, but not in Boy's Life. They were in the Saturday Evening Post - which was considered the ultimate short story market, at least commercially, of the '40's. Although Bradbury had made the breakthrough into literary publications about the same time, his stories at best fall into the fantasy realm, making Heinlein the first 'straight' science fiction author to make the big breakthrough out of the pulps into mainstream publishing. Ted Pedersen ------------------------------ Date: 8 June 1981 17:48-EDT From: Daniel G. Shapiro Subject: wizards Here is another poll: what are the names of all the wizards in fantasy novels? We should probably limit this to major characters that are wizards. Please send replies directly to dgshap@ai, I'll summarize the results. Dan ------------------------------ Date: 19 May 1981 0225-EDT From: JoSH Subject: sf animals I'm trying to think of SF animals that live in vacuum, and the rarer sophonts who do. A random sampling: -- the starseeds (huge lightsail creatures, not apparently intelligent) in Niven's Known Space; the Outsiders (intelligent) in same -- siliconies (of varying intelligence) in one of Asimov's Wendell Urth stories -- radiation-loving space barnacles from some story otherwise completely forgotten -- The Black Cloud by Fred Hoyle ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 1981 17:38:20-PDT From: ucbvax!ihnss!hobs at Berkeley (John Hobson) Subject: Animal Robots It surprises me that no one seems to have mentioned the "robass" (robotic donkey) in "The Search for St. Aquin" by ?. (As I recall, it won either the Hugo or the Nebula a few years ago.) Along some what the same lines, in the short story "Good News From The Vatican" by Sturgeon(?, sorry, I have a good memory for titles but not for authors today), a robot gets elected Pope. May your aspidistras grow and flourish, John ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 1981 06:14:18-PDT From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley Subject: Animal robots Say, wasn't there a robot "mouse" in Star Wars? [ Yes there was. Early in Episode 4: A New Hope, R2D2 and C3PO are captured and locked in. There they encounter a robot mouse (clearly intended to be humorous). -- Jim ] ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 1981 1244-PDT From: Achenbach at SUMEX-AIM Subject: Nostalgia and animal robots There is a story, I think by Anthony Boucher, in which there is a robot mule. The story is set in the future when religion is outlawed, the Pope has to keep the papal ring hidden etc. A priest is sent out in search of the body of an alleged saint, and is given a robot side kick to help. Unfortunately, all the church can afford is a robot mule, although it does talk. As far as nostalgia goes, I remember back in the days when I was a Boy Sprout, that Boy's Life, the Boy Sprout Magazine, would occasionally print SF. My favorite was the Time Machine stories. There was also a Time Machine book with the same characters, and an explanation of the origin of time machine. /Mike ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 1981 1703-PDT From: OR.TOVEY at SU-SCORE Subject: another animal robot I found some robot ducks in a pond at an elegant cafe in P. E. High's The Prodigal Sun. There also were mechanical flies for spying purposes, and robot taxicabs. --cat ------------------------------ Date: 06/21/81 23:22:09 From: MIKE@MIT-MC Subject: "Natural" robots Poul Anderson wrote a short story about humans returning to earth after having been absent for many thousands (millions?) of years and discovering that it was now populated by robot creatures of all kinds. There were robot plants, various higher order creatures which fed on these and each other and finally the robot equivalent of an intelligent being. I can't remember the name of this story but I remember it was in a collection of Anderson short stories. Michael ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 1981 17:13:08-PDT From: ihnss!karn at Berkeley Subject: "That does not compute" Several years ago (the fall of 1978), when I was at CMU, I remember reading a long debate on the origins of the phrase "That does not compute." I don't remember if it was on SF-LOVERS or not. Does anybody remember the outcome of that discussion? I remember that it was narrowed to either the Robot on "Lost in Space" or Robbie the Robot from "Forbidden Planet." Phil ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 1981 11:07:52-EDT From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: "Anybody out there?" Well, the most obvious objection to this idea is that it assumes that another spacegoing race in this galaxy would have the same impulse to speak up when it has little or nothing to say, and such a megalomaniacal approach to saying it. (Really, there's no reason to assume that other systems are going to have as conspicuous an asteroid belt as ours does, and getting the material by chewing up a random planet is an unbelievably crass notion.) Worse, there's no indication that the asteroids would have the necessary quantities of uncommon materials that would be needed. For example, I would expect such a device to require a fairly substantial (i.e., expensive) "brain"; even sending along the rarer raw materials would require the device to duplicate itself without error and without supervision. Further, if the device is capable of making a faster but more expensive version of itself, why not have it do this locally if you so badly want to make yourself well-known---that would cut some millennia off the time to be heard from. Better yet, put the money into a radio station and appropriate messages, as they will get around orders faster yet (cf. Spinrad's SONGS FROM THE STARS---it's the one worthwhile idea in that heap of trash). ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jun 1981 15:28:08-EDT From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: computers at ILM Recently, someone was talking about the substantial number of machines and programmers who were going to be needed at Industrial Light and Magic. Does anyone know the address of ILM and whether they're still hiring? Please reply directly to me, cjh@cca-unix. Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jun 1981 1639-PDT From: Jwagner at OFFICE Subject: Message from Pleiades The book mentioned in "UFOs are Real" is titled, I believe, "Message from Pleiades" and contains some remarkable photographs of what are purported to be space craft hovering over a Swiss plain. The book, a large-format paperback, may be available in some of your more obscure bookstores -- it never received wide distribution. Many of the photographs show, with great clarity, saucer-like craft posing for the author's camera. The text of the book is mainly messages from a particularly amiable space traveler from a planetary system in the Pleiades who says extra-terrestrials are really not much different than the rest of us, just more experienced. This space traveller, whose name escapes me (help?), seemed to have a rather avuncular tolerance of Earth's primitive culture and technology -- if I remember correctly (I saw this book once about a year ago) the message was something like "Peace, and clean up your act." Like all UFO literature, one can argue over the authenticity of the photos and literature, but with these considerations aside, it is thought certainly provoking, besides being real nice to look at. Jim Wagner/jwagner@office ------------------------------ Date: 16 June 1981 08:51-EDT From: Steven H. Gutfreund Subject: "History of the World - Part I" Last weekend I went and saw History of the World - Part I. The first scene was a parody of the first scene of 2001. (A bunch apes at dawn on an African plain). I am sure I have seen several other parodies of the same scene. Does anyone remember where else these have been? - mephisto ------------------------------ Date: 10 June 1981 20:54-EDT From: Edward Huang Subject: TRS-80 Hi. According to Softside May 1980, A TRS-80 Level I 4K was used in making some of the displays (status,maps,etc..) for Star Trek,the Motion Picture. How about that? Mail to me if you want more info. Edward Huang ------------------------------ Date: 2 June 1981 14:18 edt From: Benson I. Margulies at MIT-Multics Subject: Light Sabers It probably comes as no surprise that light sabers are not a starwars original. Gather, Darkness! by Leiber describes a fencing match (dead serious) with "force wands" that in most all details is identical to starwars light sabers. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 1981 0314-EDT From: Hobbit Subject: More RotLA inconsistency Did anyone notice that when Indy meets with the CIA-types in the college, he throws that large book down on the desk, and one of the clasps falls open? Two minutes later when he opens it, that same clasp is closed, so that he even has trouble opening it! _H* ------------------------------ Date: 06/24/81 08:47:11 From: RP@MIT-MC Subject: flaws in RotLA I found the film almost flawless but for the pickers of nit here is a micro flaw: When Jones comes face to face with the cobra look carefully and you can see a few specks of sand which bounce off the glass separating their faces. I wonder how many of us would be willing to stare down a cobra under such conditions! ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jun 1981 09:19 PDT From: Tou at PARC-MAXC Subject: The Phantom Zone and the Negative Zone The Phantom Zone is what the place is called in the (DC) comic books, too. I believe the Negative Zone is a place in the Marvel Comics universe. I seem to remember the Fantastic Four often making trips there. ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jun 1981 1336-PDT From: Daul at OFFICE Subject: SUPERMAN III Does anyone know anything about the NEXT movie (plot, characters, schedule, etc.)? ------------------------------ MDP@MIT-AI 6/25/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following messages are the last in the digest. They reveal plot details about the recent movie SUPERMAN II. Those not having seen the SUPERMAN movies may not wish to read any further. ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jun 81 19:45-PDT From: mclure at SRI-Unix Subject: Superman II The battle scenes are reasonably well done but the space scenes are poor. There were a LOT of holes in the script (more Mario Puzo), which children won't mind, but anyone who read a lot of Superman comics when young will cringe at each one. The one that had me sliding down in my seat was when the three villains, without radio or space suits, converse on the Moon. ------------------------------ Date: 21 JUN 1981 2141-PDT From: RODOF at USC-ECL Subject: Superman II My personal reaction to this film is, "Yeah, but...?" I thought it was a very nice love story, all the acting was quite satisfactory, and the lady who plays Ursa had me in a semi-erotic state not experienced since Diana Rigg last ran about in skin-tight black leathers in The Avengers. HOWEVER... Since when does Superman have the power to shoot blast rays from his hands? (I know, he never does, but the villians do, so supposedly he can, too.) And where did Lex Luthor find out about Kent/Superman? And what wiped Lois Lane's memory? (Super-Hypnotism? It could have been shown more clearly.) And HOW, in the name of all thundering dammit, did he get his powers back? These were all things that I was willing to overlook while enjoying the film, but they were certainly flaws, (for me), and I do believe that they could have been handled better than they were. And some of the special effects were downright shameful. In summary, I liked the film a lot, but I could have liked it a lot more. Bob ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 1981 10:11:32-PDT From: CSVAX.upstill at Berkeley Subject: Superman II warning I love a good trashy movie more than anyone I know, but I just can't understand the effusive reaction to Superman II, and I think sf-lovers ought to be warned about it. The major problem is a certain loss of innocence that must surely be associated with Richard Lester. I'm not talking about Supe and Lois going to bed, but about the violence in the film. All those explosions and car crashes really jolt! I felt unable to watch the film as a child, whereas most of the charm of the first film came in enjoying the naivete. There are glaring technical problems, too. The editing is sloppy, and turns some delicious humor self-conscious. Geoffrey Unsworth's gleaming, radiant cinematography in the first film has been replaced with a (relatively) washed-out, low-tech tone that just looks cheap. Finally, there are a number of unbelievably enormous holes in the plot, and inconsistencies in the powers of the Kryptonians. But the film does have its big-budget splash, with a vengeance, so if you enjoy seeing big bucks smeared across the screen, by all means go. But to me, this is probably the least satisfying Richard Lester film I've seen. Steve ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 27-JUN "MDP at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #159 *** EOOH *** Date: 27 JUN 1981 1131-EDT From: MDP at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #159 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Friday, 26 Jun 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 159 Today's Topics: SF Books - Robot animals & Vacuum animals & "Quest for Saint Aquin" & Palely Loitering, SF Topics - "That does not compute" & Many-chefs story formula & Tom Swifties, SF Movies - Harryhausen & "History of the World--Part I" & "Raiders" flaws & Lucas' non-photographic movies, Spoiler - "Raiders" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 25 Jun 1981 2147-EDT From: DAA at MIT-DMS (David A. Adler) Subject: Robot animals Recently I read 'Mockingbird' by Walter Tevis that mostly took place in New York. The Bronx Zoo was replaced with animals that were robots, as many of the people in New York that were around were also robots. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jun 1981 (Thursday) 2300-EDT From: SHRAGE at WHARTON-10 (Jeffrey Shrager) Subject: Vacuum animals To: josh at RUTGERS I don't know whether you would consider this to be an animal or not but in "Creatures of Light and Darkness" (Zelazny) there is this "horse-like" thing that they call the "abyss". It is some sort of rip in space that is somehow related to the other characters (related as in blood, not just friends). Zelazny never really makes it clear exactly what it is. Its name escapes me. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jun 1981 10:53:56-EDT From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: several short topics: Cc: Mike at MC, Woods at parc-maxc "The QUEST for Saint Aquin" is a 50's (? \maybe/ early 60's) story by Anthony Boucher; it was mentioned by several people when the subject of robot \\animals// was brought up by hjjh. As a sometime-assistant on the Cyber-SF project I should note that of all the suggestions so far, only the Anderson fits the criteria of "natural" cybernetic devices---this seems to be an extremely small category. "Good News from the Vatican" is by Silverberg, from the early-mid 70's. With the aid of Don Woods' suggestion I can identify a possible candidate for Mike's story as "Palely Loitering" by Chris Priest. This was a Hugo nominee two years ago; it concerns a park connected to the rest of the city by three bridges over a "time river"---one bridge takes you a day back, one is just a bridge, and one takes you a day forward. Obviously, you get a slow and awkward time machine out of this; you also have unreliable sight across the "river". I didn't like it, but I don't think much of anything by Priest. I'm quite sure that "Does Not Compute" isn't said in FORBIDDEN PLANET. LOST IN SPACE is a possibility, but I would swear it's from STAR TREK if I could remember/hear it being said by a female voice---which I can't. Leaving out comic book and other imitations, I know of one previous parody of the ape scene from 2001; the beginning of GROOVE TUBE, where they have a TV set instead of a monolith. I don't recall a light-saberish duel in GATHER, DARKNESS, but last year during my books-into-films survey someone mentioned Gordon Dickson's WOLFLING, which has a similar idea except there are two rods per fighter with the force strongest at the intersection of the "blades". ------------------------------ Date: 25 June 1981 21:09-EDT (Thursday) From: David Goldfarb To: ihnss!karn at Berkeley Subject: "That does not compute" It was definitely the robot on Lost In Space; I spent many, many hours of my otherwise wasted youth watching that show. - David ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jun 1981 2110-PDT (Thursday) From: Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: "That does not compute" How could anyone even have a QUESTION about this one? This immortal line is certainly to be credited to the "Lost In Space" robot, who used it VERY frequently. Robbie was too classy to make remarks like that! --Lauren-- ------------------------------ Date: 26 June 1981 0019-EDT (Friday) From: Lee.Moore at CMU-10A Subject: "That does not compute" Responses to the origin of that phrase were being collected by Phil Agre @ MIT. I believe that he is still absent from the country. Lee ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 1981 (Monday) 1719-EDT From: SHRAGE at WHARTON-10 (Jeffrey Shrager) Subject: Modified FiCom protocol A modification to the Fiction Communication system has been suggested that corrects a problem in my original design: The initial editor does not write the initial storyline. Rather, he controls the voting for the initial section and then publishes the first winner as the opening storyline. The winner of each successive vote becomes the new editor and may not contribute to the next set of optional lines. Thus, if someone is very good they do not get to just write the whole thing. Also, the editorial workload is well distributed and there is some "uniform discontinuity" in the editorial style. This is a better idea than editorial tenure. If you would like to either write for this project or take a hand in the voting procedure please send me mail. If I get enough responses (say about 40) we'll go for it on a trial basis. DO NOT SEND ME MAIL IF YOU ARE SIMPLY INTERESTED IN READING THE RESULTS -- they will be sent to SFL for everyone's interest. Another suggestion was that perhaps instead of writing out the whole gory thing in vivid detail, we simply collect and vote on one or two paragraph plot snapshots. This will ease every body's life but then someone has to sit down ex post facto and write the whole thing out. (We could send it off to Alan Dean Foster!) If you send me mail include your prefence as to doing the whole text or just the plot lines. Anyone who has already sent me mail needn't do so again. I have already taken down your addresses. -- Jeff ------------------------------ Date: 15 June 1981 11:55-EDT From: James M. Turner Subject: Delphing for literary profit Shade and Sweet water, Some thought on a Delphi short-story. First, imagine the following scenarios: 1) Person A writes a passionate love scene. Person B then writes the next chapter having one lover kill the other. Person A goes on vacation and misses the next chapter or 10. When he gets back, he sees what happened to the characters he introduced and goes into flames mode. He (or she) refuses to allow his/her chapter to be part of the story...trash 50 pages. 2) 400 people write one chapter...do you wanna read 4000 pages? 3) Miracle of miracles, it's published...who gets the check? 4) Of course, if it is published, it becomes commercial use of the net and is verboten. Other than those problems, I think it sounds kinda fun. It should probably NOT be associated with SFL. James P.S. Also, if you are one of the 'jurors', what happens if you are away and can't answer the ballot. Perhaps a list-wide ballot with a limited response time would be more reasonable. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 1981 1023-EDT From: DYER-BENNET Subject: Response to 15-Jun SFL Since I'm new to this, I just went back and read the 15-Jun SFL (having finished with the 22-Jun edition) and found more to remark on... Steve Lionel refers to "a Tom Swift." Actually, they're called "Tom Swifties." My favorite example is "'Gee I wish I had a BB gun,' said Tom lackadaisically." Now, are any of you familiar with the "Tom Swift Verbal pun?" These are like Tom Swifties, except that the pun is made with the verb rather than the adverb. The standard basic example is "'Two plus two is four,' Tom added." It's somewhat harder but more interesting to come up with these. The worst one I've heard was "'Let's get out of this Egyptian port,' the Captain said." ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jun 1981 16:34:21-EDT From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Harryhausen I can see why he's worried; it's not overexposure but the fact that his work is so bad compared to most of the other sfx stuff done today. He seems stuck with stop-motion when others use it as one part of a complex blend. A friend in theater told me yesterday that H actually \likes/ and tries to imitate the jerky 1940's work of his youth---maybe that's why he now seems so far behind the times or over the hill. (It was the general conclusion of the solstice party that his best was JASON AND THE ARGONAUTS or possibly THE GOLDEN VOYAGE OF SINBAD (better plot, sfx not as spectacular).) ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jun 1981 1902-PDT From: Jwagner at OFFICE Subject: HotW - Part I -- More Apes I doubt Mel Brooks will be sued for plagiarism for his opening scene in "History of the World -- Part I", but another popular comedy began with a parody of the Ape scene in "2001." Does anybody remember a movie called "The Groove Tube"? It was produced by Ken Shapiro, whose Hollywood career was indeed meteoric -- a real burnout. At the start of this movie, a group of missing-link types in some rocky Pleistocene outpost discover not a monolith, but a television set. One of the apes accidentally turns the set on, and the next thing you know they're all dancing to some heavy rock 'n' roll beat. Cute, huh? The most notable thing about "The Groove Tube" is that it's Chevy Chase's debut on the big screen. In one vignette, a parody of Geritol commercials, Chase is praising the aphrodisiac qualities of a product called "Geritan" which has worked wonders on his wife; and in another, Chevy is singing "I'm looking over a four-leaf clover" while Shapiro bongos on his head. Jim Wagner/jwagner@office [mdp - Thanks also to Margolin.PDO at MIT-Multics, MD at MIT-XX (Mike Dornbrook), SHRAGE at WHARTON-10 (Jeffrey Shrager), Pattin.PDO at MIT-Multics (Jay Pattin), and cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock) for pointing out the 2001 parody in "The Groove Tube".] ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jun 1981 11:01:37-EDT From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: stunt doubles I'm not sure which scene ?? was speaking of in the case of Harrison Ford being inside and outside the truck in RotLA, since I haven't seen the movie, but I've seen a "scenes from shooting RotLA" film (it was shown at Disclave) and I wouldn't swear that Ford ever used a double. I particularly remember some shots of the setup for the scene in which he's dragged behind a jeep; it's my impression that "double" in "stunt double" is a relative term (the stuntman having only a general resemblance to the person he's replacing) but I could swear it was Ford they were padding so he could be dragged without too much damage. ------------------------------ Date: 26 June 1981 10:14-EDT From: Dennis L. Doughty Subject: Raiders of the Lost Ark Rebuttal Regarding "Raiders of the Lost Ark" (I hate these stoopid abbrevs), I checked out FIRST'S complaint when I went to see it again. (This comment regarded the mysterious disappearence and then reappearence of Jones' wound. Well, it was there the whole time. You see, Jones was wearing a jacket through which (when the hole was open -- the bullet tore the jacket) you could see blood. When he was sliding along behind the truck, the slit in the jacket folded over itself (check it yourself) so the wound could not be seen directly. However, some blood did impart itself to the outer left sleeve of the jacket, and, in fact, one could barely see a hint of red on the stunt man's left shoulder. Regarding the cobra, I didn't notice the glass partition, but I did notice a lapse in continuity. From one angle, Jones is seen staring down the snake, and starting to back up; then we cut to a different angle (he still must be two feet or less from the cobra at this point) and he's looking away as if he's out of danger. I never did really understand how he got away -- although we're supposed to believe that he simply backed up until he was out of danger. All in all, I enjoyed the movie. It was a real treat to see a giant boulder (previously only seen on WB cartoons on Saturday mornings) racing after our hero. What a disappointment it was the second time when I arrived too late to see this! ***1/2 stars (Four stars for enjoyment and general style minus 1/2 a star for the snakes [Why did it have to be snakes?]) --Dennis ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jun 1981 09:41:57-PDT From: CSVAX.presotto at Berkeley Subject: Lucas' non-photographic movies In reply to REDFORD's remark in v3i156, we had a member of Lucas' Marin Lab come to Berkeley to give a talk some months back (though I forget his name). Although he spent a lot of time name dropping or showing "cute computer generated" films he also dropped in a few interesting remarks. It turns out that the number of chemical and physical processes involved in the simplest matting shots are pretty expensive. The switch to all electronic filming would cut down the expense enormously (once they manage to recoupe research expenses) by making matting, landscape generation, editting, color control, etc. a lot easier. It isn't just the fantastic effects that they're shooting for. As a matter of fact that's a minor side effect, though it is true that making content-free garbage will also become cheaper and easier. However, given that soon everyone will be able to make spectacular effects cheaply, maybe we'll start seeing some good plots again. dave presotto ------------------------------ MDP@MIT-AI 6/26/81 00:00:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message is the last in the digest. It gives away part of the ending to "Raiders of the Lost Ark". Readers who have not seen this movie may wish not to read any further. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jun 1981 1357-EDT From: DYER-BENNET Subject: SFL responses Some comments on Lucasfilms and Raiders of the Lost Ark: I felt that RotLA was an insult to my intelligence. The major technique for carrying the plot forward seemed to be the "Hackwriter's Gambit": Put the hero in an impossible situation, then cut to the beginning of the next action sequence without bothering to indicate how he escaped. Did anyone besides me interpret the ending of the sequence in which the Ark is opened to be God "taking back" the Ten Commandments? This could have interesting consequences, depending on interpretation. I also read the Newsweek article, including Lucas' discussion of all-electronic production. From the sales of TV's and associated program sources (tape, disk), I appear to be in a small minority... but unless his "all-electronic" production gives about an order of magnitude better linear resolution than current broadcast television, I'm not particularly interested in seeing the results. I suppose he could be thinking of some form of high-resolution recording for the production work only, with theatrical prints released on traditional film. That should be perfectly possible. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 27-JUN "MDP at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #160 *** EOOH *** Date: 27 JUN 1981 2337-EDT From: MDP at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #160 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS AM Digest Saturday, 27 Jun 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 160 Today's Topics: SF Books - Timescape & Lord Valentine's Castle, SF Movies - 2001 Parodies & Excalibur & Dragonslayer ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 Jun 81 2:24-PDT From: mclure at SRI-Unix Subject: Timescape I'm surprised there hasn't been more discussion about Benford's Timescape on this forum. It is by far the best hard science SF I've read, vastly superior to Hogan's books or Dragon's Egg. And there's a simple reason. The reader CARES about the characters. Benford is an unusual character himself; he seems adept at excellent characteriza- tion as well as believable science. Although the plot is somewhat tame and not terribly original, the book lives through its incredibly detailed description of the scientific method, academic communities, research centers, and the like; and yet, it never becomes dry as Hogan's books do. The characters do NOT introduce themselves to each other by reciting their resumes, and there are actually some believable women. Benford has drawn very heavily from his own experience in the Physics community. ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jun 1981 1344-PDT From: ICL.REDFORD at SU-SCORE Subject: Book Reviews In "Timescape" by Gregory Benford, the world has gone to hell as early as 1998. Political upheaval and ecological disaster are decimating the world's population. People speak of "diebacks" in the poorer parts of the third world as necessary to get the population down to supportable levels (I might note that this is already happening in the Sahel and Ethiopia). In the largely abandoned buildings of the Cavendish Laboratory in Cambridge University, a last group of physicists desperately try to send a message into the past to warn people of the impending catastrophes. They have found that tachyons (the faster-than-light particles) can interact with matter under certain experimental conditions that were being investigated in the early sixties. By projecting a beam of tachyons modulated in Morse code at the position of the earth in 1962 they hope to get through. The action moves from one time to the other, from the efforts of one group to keep transmitting to the other group trying to convince someone of what they have received. As sf plots go this is unremarkable, but what makes this book stand out is its capturing of the workings of science. Every detail rings true. You feel that this must be the way it is done. The characters live and breathe; in fact you read on more to find out what happens to them than to find out what happens in the plot, a rare thing in sf. Some real people are included; Freeman Dyson is in here, and there's an unflattering picture of Carl Sagan under another name. And Benford takes the theme of time travel seriously. It's not just a gimmick for meeting Christ or hunting dinosaurs, it's handled as a real philosophical problem. Benford is a physicist and so presumably knows what he's talking about when he says that the basic equations of physics show no preference for the direction of time. I found his means of resolving paradoxes unsatisfying, but at least he's done some thinking about it. Here's the counter-example to the complaints about the lack of science in science fiction. "Lord Valentine's Castle" by Robert Silverberg has also just come out in paperback. It might make a good short novel, but for some reason Silverberg bloated it to 450+ pages. The emperor of the planet Majipoor is kidnapped and transferred into another body. He is left to wander a distant land as an amnesiac, while the kidnappers rule in his stead with his face. He falls in with a troupe of jugglers and finds that he has innate talent as a juggler, part of the aura of natural grace that still clings to him from the emperorship. He tours the continent with them, slowly coming to realize his true identity. Finally he sets out on a quest to regain the throne, first by contacting his mother, the Lady of the Isle of Sleep, then by meeting the Pontifex, the law-giver for all Majipoor, and finally by storming the thirty mile high mountain on which resides his seat of power, Lord Valentine's Castle. All well enough. But Silverberg seems to lose interest after a while. The characters that he introduces early on seem much richer and more developed than the ones brought in later, and eventually they all become a gang of faces on their way to this mountain. He says some interesting things about the philosophy of juggling at the beginning, and then doesn't develop them. At one point the jugglers rescue an alien captured by the shape-changing natives, and then he's hardly heard from again. So all in all a disappointment. ------------------------------ Date: 26-Jun-81 11:42:35 PDT From: tou.pa @ PARC-MAXC Subject: 2001 Parodies I remember "The Groove Tube" containing a parody of the 2001 dawn scene. I think "Being There" showed Peter Sellers walking down a street with the 2001 theme playing in the background, though that's not really a parody of the dawn scene. [Thanks also to First at SUMEX-AIM for reporting the 2001 parody in "The Groove Tube". -- MDP] ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jun 1981 17:10:18-PDT From: ihnss!karn at Berkeley Subject: Re: Parodies of 2001 I remember one in Mad magazine. A page from it was reprinted in the paperback "The Making of 2001". Phil ------------------------------ Date: 06/26/81 23:21:34 From: ELLEN@MIT-MC Subject: Parodies of 2001 Sesame Street has a Parody of 2001, same theme song. I think it is a commercial for the letter I, but I may be wrong, it has been many years since my (now 13) year old son watched Sesame Street. Anyway, little "glob-characters" (cartoon humanoids) gathered around the "monolith" to the theme of 2001, and then recited "I I I" (I think... at least they recited in unison the name of the letter, but I think it was "I"). ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jun 1981 1538-PDT From: Richard Pattis Subject: 2001-like Ape Scenes (take II) The movie "Simon" also had Alan Arkin doing an ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny. When he got to apes, he did a good parody of moon-watcher discovering a bone/club to be an extension of his arm. I think this whole scene played sans-music, so it might have been a bit subtle. Rich ------------------------------ Date: 06/24/81 01:06:49 From: DP@MIT-ML Subject: Excalibur on the downhill side? I just got the schedule from my local cult film house. They will show Excalibur next month. It must not have done all that well for them to get it so soon. Jeff ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jun 1981 0352-PDT From: Jim McGrath Subject: Dragonslayer BOB THOMAS Associated Press Writer DRAGONSLAYER is another return to boyhood pleasures by young filmmakers. This time Matthew Robbins (director-writer) and Hal Barwood (producer-writer) seek to recreate the fantasy adventure - as epitomized by the Disney animated features - which they enjoyed in their recent youth. The result is a well-made, sometimes inspired flight of imagination that employs the latest cinematic wizardry. Peter MacNicol, apprentice to sorceror Ralph Richardson, uses his newfound powers to save a kingdom - and his love, Caitlin Clarke, from an evil-tempered dragon. The young players are engaging, and Richardson contributes believability to the fantastic happenings. Robbins-Barwood have captured the feeling of the Dark Ages; their climax proves a drawback, being overly mystical and extended. Rated PG, with ample scares for young children. ------------------------------ Date: 06/25/81 01:12:54 From: DP@MIT-ML Subject: Dragonslayer. Micro review. Dragonslayer is a typical wizards quest story. A Paramount/Disney production with a little help from some real wizards (the people at industrial light and magic). A rather atypical production from Disney. There is a fair amount of gore in spots, and one brief display of nudity (skinny dipping). However many of the obvious sexy lead-ins got left flat (I suppose they must hold slight standards). The story was supposedly set in 6'th century Saxon England. They did manage to get some of the religious symbols and architecture correct, but the garb, music, and dance used were solid 14th century. In addition, the garb worn by the peasants was far richer than people of their station could afford. The costumers did not restrain their technique sufficiently. There were darts in some of the women's clothing, (instead of the more typical laced bodice; darts aren't even 14th century) and yokes and separate sleeves on some of the tunics. I suppose they don't know how to not use them. General idea of film - there is this dragon living in a cave. To prevent him from ravaging the local populace, every equinox a fresh virgin chosen by lot gets offered up as a pacifier. A group of disgruntled locals upset about the drain on the marriageable pool, travels 100 leagues to recruit a great sorcerer. Due to some rather bizarre circumstances they wind up with the master's egotistical apprentice. The apprentice manages to upset the dragon, who flies around toasting the countryside. As expected, they get the dragon in the end, and the apprentice and the blacksmith's daughter ride out across the moors into the setting sun. The program was amusing, 1/3 of a page of acting credits, and 1 2/3 page of technical credits.. with close to a page being effex credits. This was a preview showing, the theater management invited members of the local Society for Creative Anachronism to the opening. Tickets contingent on appearing in garb, and conducting a demo outside to attract attention to things. We staged a fighting demo/practice, the jongleurs played, people danced, the jugglers did their thing, and all the rest passed out propaganda, and answered infinite questions. The movie is reasonable, not up to Raiders, but certainly better than Excalibur or CloT. Jeff (The SCA is a group interested in learning about the middle ages. The technique used is to act the part. At regular gatherings, members dress in period clothing, eat traditional food, listen and dance to early music, and a small number fight with padded rattan swords and body armor. Groups exist around most universities.) ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jun 1981 11:10:02-EDT From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: DRAGONSLAYER ("sneak" preview) Nano-review: not great, but pretty good. Summary: an apprentice sorcerer is called upon to kill a dragon over the opposition of the rulers, who prefer a quiet sacrifice every solstice to the general destruction from somebody's unsuccessful attempt to kill the beast. Comments: a bit too much attempt at political relevance, some magnificent monsters, good bits of magic, lots of gore, acting mostly good with some notable weak spots (particularly the king's daughter) and some annoyances in diction (why does everyone say prinCESS rather than PRINcess), good camera work, excellent scenery including period castles. On the whole, probably the best fantasy film since Cocteau's BEAUTY AND THE BEAST. ------------------------------ Date: 25-JUN-1981 12:57 From: KERMIT::PARMENTER Subject: sf movie Sneek prevue last nite of "Dragonslayer": the best damn kill-the-monster movie I ever saw, and certainly the best monster I ever saw. "Dragonslayer" is a joint Disney/Paramount production and Disney did the dragon. Plot is that dragon is ravaging the land. Must be placated with virgins. People seek help from sorcerer, but sorcerer dies and must be replaced by sorcerer's apprentice. Dragon must die. Movie has the authentic sword-and-sorcery feel with hardly any of the usual sword-and-sorcery bits. That is, no brass breastplates or barbarians, but plenty of misty mountains and mystery moves by the sorcerer. I can say no more, but if you like that kind of thing, "Dragonslayer" is that kind of thing. ------------------------------ Date: 26 June 1981 08:01-EDT (Friday) From: Winston Edmond To: Malis at BBNS, WMilliken at BBNE, RClifford at BBNC Subject: Movie Review: Dragonslayer My rating: * * 1/2 I consider the film to be a worthwhile evening's entertainment, but not a great film. It contains a couple scenes of a dragon eating human flesh that may be unsuitable for young children. I did not recognize the names of anyone associated with film, except Walt Disney Productions. The film is a sword and sorcery adventure. The story begins with a weary group of travelers who have come 100 leagues to see Ulrich, one of the last surviving magicians. In the olden days, the skies were filled with dragons, but most of them had been slain by the sorcerers. There is, however, one aging dragon left, Vermithrax. Only human sacrifice twice a year, at the equinoxes, keeps it from ravaging the nearby kingdom. The film is the story of the travel to the kingdom, the initial "sizing up" of the dragon, and the final battle. Intermixed is some occasional satire about religion and politics in general. I found the beginning of the film to be very uneven. Scene transitions were abrupt and, coupled with equally abrupt costume changes in the principal character, I found it very difficult to follow. Fortunately, transitions become much smoother as the film progresses. Also, for about the first two thirds of the film, I was unimpressed (though not unhappy) with the story. However, the last third brought together lots of things that had looked like irrelevancies, the dragon makes its first real appearance (I had begun to wonder if we would ever see the whole dragon), and the battle begins to take shape. I believe this last part "makes" the film. I liked the special effects. The dragon was pretty good. It isn't a speaking dragon, but it does have some character. Stop-action photography has its limitations, of course, but I think they did it well. The lighting in the flying scenes might have wanted to be a bit brighter. They were careful with their magic, too, using appropriate colors for traditional meanings. I can't say more about that without giving away part of the story. "Excalibur", the legend of a great sword of power, undertook too much for the time available to tell the story. This film, not as complex or with as detailed a history to draw upon, presents a world of sorcery, feudalism, and dragons that is less realistic but more appropriate to adventure and imagination. Incidentally, I challenge you to guess which character gains the name "Dragonslayer". -Winston ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 29-JUN "MDP at MIT-ML" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #161 *** EOOH *** Date: 29 JUN 1981 0048-EDT From: MDP at MIT-ML Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #161 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 28 Jun 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 161 Today's Topics: SF Books - Crystal toy plot query & Islandia query & The Gods Hate Kansas & Cyborgs & Pseudofluids, SF Movies - Heavy Metal & Caveman & Dragonslayer, SF Topics - Disney World & S in SF, Spoiler - Superman II ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 23 Jun 1981 15:44 PDT From: Kaehler at PARC-MAXC Subject: Plot query I have a request: Where can I find the following short story that I read once. A kid has a "toy" that some smallish aliens gave him. He is playing in the backyard. The toy is a crystal glass. The boy thinks of a scene, say a house burning down. The scene appears in the glass, just as he imagines it. Little figures race around trying to save the people. The boy imagines the scene again, but this time the crystal won't show it unless he supplies more detail. He has to imagine firemen, the fire truck, and what the firemen do. Each time the crystal demands a more realistic fantasy before it will show the scene. The crystal turns out to be the most seductive and addictive teaching tool ever seen. (I read this in a collection of short stories some years ago.) Thanks! Ted Kaehler ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jun 1981 1054-EDT From: KERN at RUTGERS Subject: ISLANDIA query Seeing ISLANDIA on the rare-sf list got me to thinking that there might be other fans of the book on the net. Sylvia Wright, in the massmarket edition of the book published in the late 60's implies that there is a companion edition to the book which has been published. This would make sense in that half the book was edited out due to the WWII paper shortage. Does anyone know if indeed there is a companion book, by Austin Tappan Wright? (I'm not referring to THE ISLAR, by Mark Saxton, a much weaker sequel.) If you know any further details about a companion volume, please send a message to KERN@RUTGERS. I'll acknowledge any responses in a future message to SF-LOVERS. -Kevin B Kern ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jun 1981 06:50:22-PDT From: decvax!duke!unc!bch at Berkeley Subject: Rare SF "The Gods Hate Kansas" was made into a (bad) film whose name I do not remember. That to me disqualifies it from being "rare." ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jun 1981 17:12:01-PDT From: Cory.cc-treas at Berkeley Subject: Cyborgs & Pseudofluids On the subject of Cyborgs & Zelazny, how about The Steel General from the book "Creatures of Light & Darkness"? He (apparently) was human once, but since he embodies the spirit of rebellion, (and that implies doing battle a good deal of the time) he sort of lost pieces of himself to prosthetics and so on over the years until he was entirely mechanical. It is said that he has been disassembled many times, and even his parts flung to the ends of the universe, but always someone reassembles him to help in a rebellion. He even wears a ring of human flesh to remind him of humanity. His horse was something else again! The name of the abyss, mentioned in the previous digest, was (I think) Skagganook (or something with that flavor) and the horse's name was Thoth. The name of the story, by Poul Anderson, with Earth as the playground for evolving machines was "Zero" and it is indeed part of a collection of his stuff, but the name still escapes me. I've got it in my library and will look it up tonight. As for pseudofluid, Mr. joe.newcomer (is that right?) was correct. Joe Haldeman used 'breathable' fluid to protect the soldiers in the transport ships in "The Forever War". Those ships supposedly did about 50G's if I remember correctly. It was 'serialized' in Analog over about a year as a whole set of short stories some years ago. Everyone had a kind of socket or spigot on their hip which led into the major cavities of the abdomen, and before undergoing the acceleration, oxygenated fluorocarbon was forced into their bodies and into a kind of crash couch which surrounded the people completely. Erik Fair Cory:cc-treas@Berkeley ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jun 1981 1027-PDT From: Geoffrey C Mulligan (at The Pentagon) Subject: New Heavy Metal movie? Has anyone heard anything about the new HEAVY METAL movie? I saw some film clips and it looked very interesting. I believe it will be rated R since the 'teaser' had some very sexually explicit scenes. geoff ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jun 1981 at 1503-CDT From: ables at UTEXAS-11 (King Ables) Subject: looks like 2001 to me . . . Not to beat a dying horse, but I seem to remember a short scene in "Caveman" which at least reminded me of 2001. There was some music which, although not the same, was very similar to that in 2001 and the general goings on at the time were much the same (some revelation coming to the cavemen [or cavepersons if you prefer]). I don't remember whether Ringo Starr threw a club into the air or not, though. King ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jun 1981 1445-PDT From: FEATHER at USC-ISIF Subject: Dragonslayer Question: How many dragons does it take to make baby dragons? ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jun 1981 (Sunday) 2018-EDT From: SHRAGE at WHARTON-10 (Jeffrey Shrager) Subject: Disney Standards Univac sent me to DisneyWorld to talk about APL last year [They use Univac equipment for management crunching and a combination of electromechanical and MicroNova for effects]. I spent about half a day riding "shotgun" with a blonde in the cab of the red monorail talking about Disney and the "world." One of the points discussed might be of general interest: Seems that when you apply for a Disney job (in particular, for working in DW or DL) you don't interview, you "audition". When you are at work you must wear your hair in the traditional down-home All-American style and, of course, no smoking or drinking on the job. You don't have a boss but, rather, a choreographer, and you are considered to be on stage at all times while on Disney grounds. You cannot take your costume out of the park or "use your association" in any respect, charitable or otherwise, without Disney prior approval. When I was there they were replacing the House of Horrors Audio-Animatronics with MicroNovas. Some of us got the "underground" tour of the nerve center; they call it the "tunnel". It is just that. Note that most of Florida is your basic flat state; well... where did they get that mountain on which to build Cinderella's castle? Hint: The lake wasn't there when they bought the land... Well, in the process they buried a huge set of corridor areas that are the underground control center. It was pretty amazing. They do not make as much use of computers as they might although that is changing slowly. Note: Last year they began EPCOT -- the Experimental Prototype Community Of Tommorow. This was supposed to be a huge international technology "fest" building a complete city in the heart of the Disney property. I'd be interested if anyone knows anything more about that project. It sounded very interesting. -- Jeff ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jun 1981 06:54:50-PDT From: decvax!duke!unc!bch at Berkeley Subject: science in science fiction -- creativity While I would agree with jeff about "Cosmos" (I got mighty tired of Commander Carl gazing mysteriously off in the distance, presumably to the east,) and about "In Search of..." I do think he missed the theme of "Connections". Burke never said that science has grown beyond our comprehension, but that the \linkages/ between the various forms of technology have become so tight and complicated that we cannot comprehend them. We cannot control technological development without destroying serendipitous discovery. At the risk of puncturing a sacred cow (sorry about the mixed metaphor) I thought he also stressed that creativity does not exist in the form of ideas springing forth full-blown from the inventor's head. Invention is, rather, a process of synthesis and serendipity where old processes are adapted with possibly new emergent results...it can be visualized as a process similar to evolution with continuity and mutation. So...given a highly complicated sort of technological "organism" (and I don't want to stretch the comparison too far, so nobody please say I said that technology \is/ an organism) with the capacity for self directed mutation, what course should be taken. That, to me, was the problem that Burke presented. Byron Howes -- University of North Carolina ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jun 1981 21:00:53-PDT From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley Subject: What is SF? Well, we now have a new example of science fiction to factor into our attempts to define it. House Budget Committee Chairperson James Jones, D-Oklahoma, when referring to Republican objections to the Democratic budget plans, said that they were dealing in "science fiction". Me, I think he's wrong -- science fiction is more logical, and MUCH more soundly based on facts than is the Reagan economic plan..... Gee, should this have been sent to HUMAN-NETS (wherever it may be) or to politics-d? One of the relatives of the latter is the usual place for wild flaming. More seriously, the reason I bring up the topic is that it illustrates a popular perception of the nature of science fiction. Anything that seems impossible without being in a category generally rejected -- such as "magic" -- is called science fiction. And it's not just the public -- many authors are at least as guilty. As has been pointed out before, there is (currently?) no basis for believing in faster-than-light drives. On the other hand, if one wishes to include interstellar travel as part of the story, it's almost a necessity (though Busby's "Rissa Kerguelen" and Haldeman's "Forever War" use relativity quite well most of the way through.) Instead, people generally accept a conventionalized hyper-drive. Poul Anderson speaks of "pseudo-velocities", Jerry Pournelle has a friend at Cal Tech (Dan Alderson) invent an interstellar drive to his specs, other authors (Niven and Asimov) don't permit their hyperspace drives to be used too close to a planet or star, etc. Are these possible? No, not by anything we know today. In the future? Maybe -- some are more plausible than others. The Alderson drive, for example, is reportedly based on many pages of differential equations derived from an as-yet undiscovered "fifth force" (after gravity, electro-magnetic, strong, and weak). But these authors are often regarded as the hardest of the hard science fiction writers. Why do we accept them? The answer, I think, lies in a unique property of science fiction: the ability to freely explore changes in society brought about by arbitrary changes in human capabilities. What would be the effect of a true, controllable prophetic ability? The "Foundation" series presents one answer. Running out of living space? Build a "Ringworld" or a Dyson sphere. What might happen to the human race if we don't control our population but can't leave the solar system? "The Mote in God's Eye" is a gory example. Yes, many of these themes can be dealt with in historical fiction -- and many of them are, to the tune of a great deal of criticism for inextricably mixing fact with fiction. (Is Leon Uris's Ari ben Canaan REALLY based on Yitzhak Rabin? What about his Menachem Begin counterpart -- who died in Exodus?) Using science fiction provides a more controlled environment for such experimentation. How, then, are we to judge a science fiction story? The best metric I know is how well a story succeeds at its goals -- one of which MUST be to tell a good story. Often, that's the only goal -- and we get space opera, with or without wiring diagrams. Much of the very best science fiction falls into this category, and why many (most?) of us prefer such stories to similar mainstream stories is itself an interesting question. Others endeavor to teach, to use real science -- but then the author runs the risk of being overtaken by new facts (how many stories just don't work anymore because Venus isn't ocean-covered, or at least very humid?) or finding that they haven't considered all aspects of their imaginary world. "Ringworld Engineers" is largely a collection of scientifc (and plot-oriented) patches to "Ringworld", and even Hal Clement had to recant a bit in "Eye of the Needle". (Though his suggestion of utilizing otherwise wasted biomass for fuel production must rank as one of the great predictions of SF....). But for the most part, the all-time great stories meld many themes. "Dune" uses ecology, realistic politics, mysticism, feudal patterns taken from history, and technological changes to tell a marvelously entertaining story. "Stand on Zanzibar" is a chillingly plausible picture of where our technology is heading, mixed in with fairly extensive sociological commentary, in-depth pictures of many characters, and a risky literary technique. And -- hey... you... what's that you're holding? Put that down! No, no -- don't use that fire extinguisher on meeeeeee.... Steve Bellovin UNC, Chapel Hill ------------------------------ MDP@MIT-AI 6/28/81 0:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The following message gives away some of the outcomes of the movie "Superman II". Those of you who have not seen it may wish not to read any further. ------------------------------ Date: 25 June 1981 21:37 edt From: Margolin.PDO at MIT-Multics Subject: Re: Superman II spoiler questions Re: Superman II spoiler questions: Lex Luthor never claimed to know about the Superman/Kent duality. He just knew that he was special friends with the people at the Daily Planet, especially Lois Lane; it might even be considered common knowledge. Yes, some of the powers shown by the Kryptonian criminals are not taken from the comics (I used to be an avid DC Comics reader). I was especially surprised by the levitation and force beams. The talking in space could have been an example of "super ventriloquism", something Supes used sometimes in the comics, although usually to say something to someone a great distance away (around the world, for instance), rather than through a vacuum. I was disappointed by the movie for several reasons, and I am really surprised that it is grossing more than RotLA. Hopefully, the return audience for Raiders will turn this figure around. A major problem with the movie was the lack of good climaxes (although Ursa was cute). They kept on reaching towards high points, and then stopping just before. They never actually show how he gets his powers back (Mom said that the change was irreversible, but we all knew that it wasn't), and Superman flying off when he was "defeated" was not the great gimmick that they must have been trying to make of it. And Kent beating up the bully in the end was totally out of character. I think that he either used super-hypnotism or slipped Lois a mickie to make her forget his identity (we all knew that had to happen, too). Another problem with the movie was the predictability. Well, that's enough for now. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, Summary-line: 30-JUN "MDP at MIT-ML" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #162 *** EOOH *** Date: 30 JUN 1981 0252-EDT From: MDP at MIT-ML Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #162 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS Digest Mon, 29 Jun 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 162 Today's Topics: SF Books - Lord Valentine's Castle & True Names, SF Topics - Parallel universes (matter transmission revisited), SF Movies - Dragonslayer & Star Wars song & Raiders of the Lost Ark, Spoiler - Raiders of the Lost Ark ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 June 1981 00:18-EDT From: David Vinayak Wallace I wish to dispute the claims made about "Lord Valentine's Castle" (should be underlined). Rather than be 'bloated', I thought it was too short for the real story. It seemed to me that after Valentine's acceptance of his true identity the plot seems to accelerate. After wandering around for a few months (!) as commoner Valentine, he almost suddenly realises the truth. From there, victory is an almost inevitable conclusion. Silverberg leaves in hundreds of undeveloped hooks (like the rest of the off-world races) which he never bothers to develop. It would have been better to have left them out, rather than mention them at all. In my opinion, the book is too short to adequately express the richness Silverberg tried to put in. He is writing a sequel. Nuff said. --david ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jun 1981 14:33:04-PDT From: jef at LBL-UNIX (& Poskanzer [rtsg]) To: rms at mit-ai Subject: True Names There was a review of "True Names" in SFL V3 #98 (16apr81). The reviewer expressed mixed feelings about the story. I tend to agree more with Spider Robinson's assesment in the June 22 Analog: "...Vernor Vinge's 'True Names' is @i[so] damned good it deserves to be on the Hugo list... I don't know why Vinge failed to secure a magazine publication for this splendid novella - I think if it had run here in Analog it would have been assured a Hugo nomination, whereas now I'm going to have to do a lot of drumbeating for it. ... Do not miss this ingenious and truly original story - it is one of those that, when you're done, you wish the author were present so you could applaud." So, get out there and beat those drums! --- Jef ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jun 1981 1426-EDT From: SILBER at RUTGERS Subject: True Names and haunted spacesuits On Vernon Vinge's excellent story, True Names, not only is it one of the best studies of hacking written yet, but it seemed to draw heavily on frp (fantast role-playing) game scenarios. One touch I really appreciated was that an understanding of computers as magic was more useful than knowing the nuts and bolts (though both were necessary). I have not read the Heinlein story you have been referring to, but it seems somewhat similar to one of the most striking scenes in The Mote in God's Eye (Pournelle/Niven, if my memory is at all useful). In that scene some of the smaller Moties try to enter a spaceship by holding a severed head in the faceplate and hiding in the bottom. Fortunately, someone spots them, and blows apart the spacesuit, revealing them. I've been following the discussion on the "lack of science in science fiction", and while it's true that much of the so-called science has only a tenuous connection with present scientific knowledge, I don't believe that the necessary conclusion is that science fiction is supporting the prevailing "mystical" outlook of our society. One of the major tenets of most religious and also most antitechnological points of view is that the way things are now is the way they have to be. Be it the stars, the gods, the earth's limitations, or sheer human stupidity that takes the blame, we're stuck with the present condition. SF by its very existance argues with that premise. Simply by imagining faster than light travel, even without explaining precisely how, (and very few times is it necessary to know how in order to uderstand the story), you've said "I'm not accepting the way I currently know the world as the end of man's efforts to know the world." Perhaps that is not a strictly scientific viewpoint to take (for you have no evidence of the knowledge you don't yet have) but it is certainly opposed to the mystical, anti-technological viewpoint. My view on this is somewhat similar to Vonnegut's comments on cultural relativity in the epilog to the book Free to Be ... You and Me. "Cultural relavity... is also a source of hope. It means we don't have to stay this way if we don't want to." So too with SF. Sincerely Rachel Silber ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 1981 1358-PDT From: DHARE at SRI-CSL Subject: many worlds universe and self-identity I just got through reading the Metamagical Themas column by Douglas Hofstadter in the July Scientific American. In it he discusses modern quantum mechanics and the many-worlds interpretation as a solution to the problem of abrupt and seemingly arbitrary state changes on the quantum mechanical level. This interpretation theorizes that the universe is constantly forking into parallel paths, one for each possible quantum mechanical state. Hofstadter raises the issue of the sense of self-identity in this parallel path universe. I don't find it so difficult to imagine my being in one branch at a particular instant and have a sense of self-identity independent of all my other identities. However, I remember a fragment of an SF plot I heard about somewhere (maybe even here) about a matter copying machine which is used to create a copy of a person (leaving the original untouched). The copy of the person is sent to do a job which is necessarily fatal. The feelings of the person who enters this machine is described as thinking to himself "I hope when I walk out that I am not the copy". Of course, since his universe in a sense "splits" at that point, he will both find himself the copy and the original, but with different self-identities. This kind of example makes it more difficult for me to imagine my self-identity being preserved through splits in my universe line. I can imagine walking up to that matter copying machine hoping that when I walk out my self-identity is attached to the original and not the copy, but that kind of thought does not seem to make any real sense. Does anyone know if any SF writer has investigated such problems of self-identity under comparable circumstances? --Dwight Hare ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jun 1981 2203-PDT From: RODOF at USC-ECL Subject: Dragonslayer Hey, so the lead bit moldy tuna. So what? I don't go to a movie like that to see humans anyway. I went to see dragons, and I SAW dragons, so very satisfied was I. Some of the performers were very good, I thought -- the bad guy, whatever his name was, and the King, and the lead female and her father, and there were some not-so-goods, like the princess (who looked good enough to eat, heh heh) and the Master Sorcerer, but that was okay, cause the dragon had enough character to fill for them both. I was especially impressed by the sets. However, I have one minor point -- if the dragon only eats virgins, then why go to all the trouble of concealing your daughter in boy's garb for eighteen years? (The psychological scars alone...) I'm sure SOME enterprising young man would have started a stud service, complete with Writ of Authenticity signed upon completion of the task, to remove the daughters from eligibility. And he probably wouldn't charge much either. After all, the only thing they lose is their chance to marry Prince Charles, and hell, the odds are too damn great to make staying a virgin a sound investment in risk with a hungry dragon around. ------------------------------ Date: 22-Jun-1981 From: STEVE LIONEL AT STAR at ZIP Subject: Star Wars Dementia Like most people, I'll admit to a few bad habits. One I wish I indulged in more often is listening to the "Dr. Demento Radio Show", which is nationally syndicated and features what might be termed "novelty music". Although I have insufficient data, it appears to be broadcast at a constant time of Sunday nights at 10PM. In the Boston area, it's on WCOZ-FM (94.5 MHz). Well, I tuned in late last Sunday and caught the end of the "Funny Five", the five most requested songs of the week. Number two was sooooo demented, I just had to tape it the next week, transcribe it and share it with you. The song's by "Weird Al" Yankovic (spelling approximate), is sung to the tune of the Kinks' "Lola", is titled "Yoda", and goes like this: I met him in a swamp down in Dagobah Where it bubbles all the time like a giant cabinet soda S-O-D-A soda I saw the little runt sitting there on a log I asked him his name and in a raspy voice he said Yoda Y-O-D-A Yoda, Yo-Yo-Yo-Yo Yoda Well I've been around but I ain't never seen A guy who looks like a Muppet but he's wrinkled and green Oh my Yoda, Yo-Yo-Yo-Yo Yoda Well I'm not dumb but I can't understand How he can raise me in the air just by raising his hand Oh my Yoda, Yo-Yo-Yo-Yo Yoda, Yo-Yo-Yo-Yo Yoda Well I left home just a week before And I never ever met a Jedi before But Obi-Wan he set me straight of course He said "Go to Yoda and he'll show you the Force" Well I'm not the kind that would argue with that So it looks like I'm gonna start all over again With my Yoda, Yo-Yo-Yo-Yo Yoda, Yo-Yo-Yo-Yo Yoda Yoda, Yo-Yo-Yo-Yo Yoda, Yo-Yo-Yo-Yo Yoda So I used the Force I picked up a box I lifted some rocks While I stood on my head Well I won't forget what Yoda said He said "Luke stay away from the darker side And if you start to go astray let the Force be your guide" Oh my Yoda, Yo-Yo-Yo-Yo Yoda "I know Darth Vader's really got you annoyed But remember if you kill him then you'll be unemployed" Oh my Yoda, Yo-Yo-Yo-Yo Yoda Well I heard my friends really got in a mess So I'm gonna have to leave Yoda I guess But I know that I'll be coming back some day 'Cause I'm playing this part 'till I'm old and gray 'Cause a long term contract I had to sign Since I'll be making these movies 'till the end of time With my Yoda, Yo-Yo-Yo-Yo Yoda, Yo-Yo-Yo-Yo Yoda Yoda, Yo-Yo-Yo-Yo Yoda, Yo-Yo-Yo-Yo Yoda [Repeat] Stay Demented! Steve Lionel ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jun 1981 1410-PDT (Saturday) From: Faigin at UCLA-SECURITY (Daniel Powell Faigin) Subject: RotLA - The Next Episode If I recall correctly, the NEWSWEEK article said something about the next installment of RotLA taking place in Africa. Does anybody know anything about this? Also, it may be a while before the next installment of RotLA comes out. Spielberg is supposedly working on a number of movies of his own, and I have heard rumors that Lucas promised him that he could do the next Star Wars movie [the one after Revenge -- either SW1 or SW7]. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jun 1981 at 0136-CDT From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 Subject: Harrison Ford's stunts in RotLA I remember catching a quick glimpse in the credits of something like "stunt man" or "stand-in" or "assistant" followed by "to Mr. Ford". ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jun 1981 0758-PDT From: CSD.JPBion at SU-SCORE (Joel P. Bion) Subject: RotLA (not really a spoiler) A couple of things: 1. Re: Hacking through the script. Was it really Lucas speaking when we hear Indiana Jones say "I'm making it up as I go along" (in the scene just before he jumps on the horse) 2. THX1138. Has anyone seen this in the movie? I have looked in all the obvious places (license plates, plane/ship registration numbers) and I cannot find it. Joel ------------------------------ MDP@MIT-AI 6/29/81 0:00 Re: SPOILER WARNING!! SPOILER WARNING!! The following messages are the last in the digest. They reveal details about "Raiders of the Lost Ark". Those of you who have not seen this movie may wish not to read any further. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jun 1981 (Sunday) 2020-EDT From: SHRAGE at WHARTON-10 (Jeffrey Shrager) Subject: Spoiler -- Raiders of the Lost Ark -- ending I interpreted that as the same force that destroyed Sodom/Gomorra. Reasons: 1) The pillar of fire 2) Jones knew not to look at it -- how else? 3) Wrath of God and all that. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jun 1981 1714-PDT From: Alan R. Katz Subject: Spoiler for ROTLA CAUTION, the following is a spoiler for ROTLA: I have figured out something about the movie that bothered me. Remember Indiana had the headpiece of the staff of RA? Then he found that the Nazis had made a duplicate of it, but only of the writing on one side? The question is: How were they able to make a copy of it? Indiana said that there was never any pictures of the thing. Well, remember that the evil Nazi had an imprint of the headpiece burned into his hand when he tried to steal it. So they must have used his hand to make a model, and that is why they only had one side of it. Alan ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jun 1981 0207-EDT From: HEDRICK at RUTGERS Subject: Did God take back the Commandments? If God did take back the Commandments, it was probably not in the final scene, but rather in the boat, when the box in which the Ark was placed got charred. (Can anyone else think of what else the charring may have meant?) After all, the box is full of sand when the baddies first open it, before the special effects start flying around. The final scene is perfectly consistent with Biblical reports of what happened when enemies [indeed even friends] touched the Ark: they got zapped. I think we are intended to be reminded of the Angel of Death from Cecil B. DeMille's "Ten Commandments". At the end when the clouds opened and things ascended through the opening, I rather expected to see that God had taken back the entire Ark. But He didn't, so I think that was just the Angel of Death going back up into Heaven. By the way, I finally did manage to locate some evidence of an Egyptian attack on Israel at the time when the movie claims the Ark was taken away: "King Solomon used forced labor ... to rebuild the cities of Hazor, Megiddo, and Gezer. (The king of Egypt had attacked Gezer and captured it, killing its inhabitants and setting fire to the city. Then he gave it as a wedding present to his daughter when she married Solomon, and Solomon rebuilt it.)" [1 Kings 9:15-17, TEV.] It is of course well-known that the kings of Israel did not control all of the land they claimed, so this sort of thing is no particular surprise. [The nearest of those cities to Jerusalem is Gezer, but it is in the Philistine area, which was never really subdued.] However the Ark was in Jerusalem, and it seems a bit less likely that the king of Egypt would have taken the most important item from their capital city at the precise period when Israel's secular power was at its maximum. But anything for a good story... ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Summary-line: 1-JUL "MDP at MIT-AI" #SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #163 Date: 1 JUL 1981 0731-EDT From: MDP at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #163 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI *** EOOH *** Date: 1 JUL 1981 0731-EDT From: MDP at MIT-AI Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V3 #163 To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-AI SF-LOVERS Digest Tue, 30 Jun 1981 Volume 3 : Issue 163 Today's Topics: Administrivia - Abbreviations, SF Fandom - WesterCon, SF TV - VideoWest, SF Books - Lord Valentine's Castle & Educational toy & Cyber SF, SF Radio - Dr. Demento, SF Movies - Theme music & 2001 parodies & THX-1138 & Dragons' virgins ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 Jun 1981 03:42:27-PDT From: decvax!duke!unc!smb at Berkeley Subject: Abbreviations I know it's been discussed before, but I'm getting a little tired of having to decode new abbreviations, acronyms, etc., with each new digest. Yes, it's easier to type TESB instead of "The Empire Strikes Back", but it isn't necessarily easier to read. If you want to use abbreviations, fine, but please -- use the full name at least once earlier in your letter, so that the uninitiated can understand what you're saying. (Incidentally, don't assume that everyone will know that, say, "RotLA" is "Raiders of the Lost Ark" just because it's been discussed a lot lately. First of all, people do start reading the list in the middle of a discussion, and second, depending on the backlog of submissions, your letter may appear a month or more after you sent it in.) [OK, let's see how many readers object to this idea: I will expand the first occurrence of each abbreviation in a digest. This is less obtrusive than expanding them all and will allow our readers to abbreviate as they please. -- Mike] ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jun 1981 1609-PDT (Tuesday) From: Eps at UCLA-SECURITY (Eric P. Scott) Subject: Going to WesterCon? I need a ride... Attention Bay Area SF-Lovers: I'm looking for transportation to WesterCon, and a share in a room. I'm willing to contribute a reasonable amount for gas, etc. If you'll be passing through or near Berkeley and can accomodate one more passenger, give me a call at home: (415) 540-8690. Ask for Eric. Thanks in advance, -=EPS=- ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 29 Jun 1981 17:06-PDT From: mike at RAND-UNIX Subject: Westercon party Has anyone planned an Sf-Lovers get together at the Westercon in Sacramento this 4th of July ? Does someone have a suite they could offer ? Reply to me. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jun 1981 11:51 PDT From: Kolling at PARC-MAXC Subject: videowest SF Bay area message: the topic on VideoWest (KQED, channel 9) last night was science fiction. I think they said it would be repeated this Saturday night. It was truly painful to see some author slaving away over a typewriter instead of using a terminal. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jun 1981 1010-PDT From: Yeager at SUMEX-AIM Subject: Lord Valentine's Castle Actually, Bob Silverberg is NOT writing a sequel, but rather, a collection of adventures that take place on Majipoor, the world on which LVC took place. He mentioned the name of this collection to me, but it slips my mind just now... Bill ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jun 1981 1320-EDT From: G.BLIC at MIT-EECS Subject: The Glass Toy with the funny fire engine The story which dealt with a crystal cube toy in which children could play "pretend" by visualizing a burning house and having a fire engine come and put out flames (all in the cube) is found in the story "Mimsy Were the Borogoves" by . It was part of the Science Fiction Hall of Fame series, which were a collection of short stories deemed the best by the editors. This toy was used in instructing children of the future in a non-Euclidean logic, but it wound up in the 20th century via a time experiment (also in the future). It is an entertaining story, and the whimsical title is from that great poem by Lewis Carroll, "Jabberwocky." I'm new to SF-Lovers, so I hope that this gets through! 'Twas brillig and the slithy toves Did gyre and gimble in the wabe All mimsy were the borogoves And the mome raths outgrabe. Smile in the sun --- Arthur (G.Blic) @MIT-EECS ["Mimsy Were The Borogoves" by Henry Kuttner appeared in 1943 under the pen name Lewis Padgett, and I believe it was not a collaboration with his wife, C. L. Moore, though many of his other stories were. The influence of Lewis Carroll is plain in many of the Lewis Padgett stories. "Mimsy" is included in THE SCIENCE FICTION HALL OF FAME (Volume I); Charles E. Haynes tells us it is also in THE BEST OF LEWIS PADGETT, and Scot Drysdale tells us it is in MATHEMATICAL MAGPIE. Thanks to Lauren Weinstein (Lauren at UCLA-SECURITY), P. David Lebling (PDL at MIT-DMS), Tou at PARC-MAXC, Morris Keesan (mkeesan at BBN-NU), Don Woods (Woods at PARC-MAXC), Charles E. Haynes (CEH at MIT-MC), Scot Drysdale (Drysdale at PARC-MAXC), Erik Fair (Cory:cc-treas at Berkeley), and Steve Weiss, UNC-CH (decvax!duke!unc!sfw at Berkeley) for (coming close to) identifying this story. -- Mike] ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jul 1981 at 0051-CDT From: hjjh at UTEXAS-11 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ CYBER-SF PROJECT (& STAR WARS) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ With an on-going project like this it is difficult to know how much background info to repeat from prior messages in order to bring new readers up to date without boring long-standing readers with repeti- tiousness. But for those who have notes the absence of cy-devices like the robass in "Search for St. Aquin" or natural robotic flora and fauna in a Poul Anderson story-- these are not eligible because (so far as I know) they're "stray" short-stories. The focus of the project is on BOOKS... primarily novels, but also single-author-collections-and-topical-anthologies featuring cy- devices, such as Asimov's THE REST OF THE ROBOTS, and THE COMING OF THE ROBOTS ed. by Sam Moskowitz, or SCIENCE FICTION THINKING MACHINES ed. by Groff Conklin. As for the robot "mouse" in STAR WARS, it is not referred to as such in the film, and gives little evidence of being one. (It does squeak but it doesn't hide when people are around.) As a devoted SW freak, my best guess is that it's most likely rationalized as being some kind of cleaning robot. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jun 19x1 1717-PDT From: Lynn Gold Subject: Dr. Demento I have been a big fan of his for many years, and I miss the show. Does ANYONE out there know what station(s), if any, the "good doctor" might be on in the San Francisco Bay area? While I DO know that he tapes out of KMET in Los Angeles, I also know that he is not always there, and does a lot of running around the country to promote his show (I met him last October on one such trip). --Lynn Gold G.FIGMO@SCORE [It has been a while since I tuned in The Dr. Demento Show, but KSFO (AM 560) used to broadcast it every Sunday night at ten. -- Mike] ------------------------------ Date: 30 June 1981 13:51-EDT From: Michael A. Patton Subject: Star Wars Dementia There are a couple of places where you got the "YODA" lyrics different than the way I remember them, maybe you could check your recording, and I'll check the show next time I hear. You: How he can raise me in the air just by raising his hand Me: ...lift... You: Well I'm not the kind that would argue with that Me: ... Ben (Thus it rhymes [more or less] with the next line: So it looks like I'm gonna start all over again STAAAYYYY DE-Mented!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Mike (MAP@MIT-AI) ------------------------------ Date: 06/29/81 22:09:16 From: DP@MIT-ML Subject: Movie Music, A Complaint. People always seem to call an old piece of music used in a movie by the name of the movie, not the proper name of the music. It is "Also sprach Zarathustra", not the theme from 2001. Most people think that it is a recent piece written for the movie, rather than a piece written by R. Strauss in the 19'th century. It is very nice that the music is being presented again, but the composer should get a little credit. (In the same vein, my local hifi dealer tells me that most people assume "ride of the valkyries" was written for Apocalypse now, by R. Wagner the actor) Jeff ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jun 1981 17:07:19-PDT From: ihnss!ihuxp!rjsmith at Berkeley Subject: 2001 Parody In one episode of 'Monty Python', there is an animated takeoff of part of the 'dawn of man' scene. Remember when the ape throws a bone up in the air, and the bone is transformed into a space ship in orbit? In the M.P. version, the space ship falls back to earth and konks the ape in the head (the ship is the same size as the original bone). Roy Smith ihuxp!rjsmith [Thanks also to Steve Weyer (Weyer at PARC-MAXC) for pointing out this 2001 parody. -- Mike] ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jun 1981 2322-PDT From: First at SUMEX-AIM Subject: THX-1138 reference I don't think THX-1138 appeared in RotLA in any form, but then I would not expect it to be--this was basically Spielberg's film, not Lucas' and THX-1138 was Lucas' first film.... for those confused by what we're talking about, THX-1138 appeared in "American Graffiti" (as the license plate number of the hot rod) (actually I think it was THX-138) as a homage by Lucas to his first film. I was actually planning to get a vanity plate made up with this but in the end I didn't want to spent the extra $30.00. Did THX-1138 appear in "Star Wars"? Also, does anybody know of any other "in" references to previous films like this by other directors? I know of two off-hand...Kubrick uses CRM 1234 (I don't remember the actual digits) in "Dr. Strangelove" as the access code or something, and "serum 1234" in "Clockwork Orange" as the name of a drug given to Malcolm McDowell. Also, Altman has a MASH poster appear in a scene in "Brewster McCloud". Also, in "Clockwork", when McDowell picks up those two girls in a London Record Shop, the soundtrack LP to "2001" is plainly visible in the racks. Any others? --Michael (FIRST@SUMEX-AIM) P.S. There's no doubt they used a stunt double in RotLA--no studio would allow their star to take chances like that--those were dangerous stunts during the chase--they would lose their insurance coverage, among other things... [The recall-sequence decoder in "Dr. Strangelove" was called a CRM 114 Discriminator. -- Mike] ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jun 1981 11:50:39-EDT From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: virginity in DRAGONSLAYER I assume that the suggestion was intended to be funny, since even a brief examination of more recent literature shows the problems with an unmarried female acknowledging unchastity. It could be argued that in such a village there were probably a number of unmarried females who technically were not virgins---but as long as they weren't obvious about it there wasn't anything that could be done. Even allowing for the suggestion that Christianity (with its sick attitudes) has only begun to get a foothold in the village, it is quite likely that there were social strictures against premarital sex---quite possibly, with the large number of girls in the village it was considered safer to take one's chances with the semiannual lottery than to subject oneself to public shame and the consequent ostracism/expulsion (which in that wild country would probably be as certain a death as being chosen). (The latest issue of TOURNAMENTS ILLUMINATED has an interesting sidelight on this; it claims that the English feudal lord was not held to have the right to every woman's maidenhead (as he did in much of the continent) but that a lord might fine a vassal substantially for not preventing his daughter from bedding someone before her engagement and thereby decreasing her market value. This wasn't in the Dark Ages either; the period described was ca. 14th century.) As for someone's question about how many dragons does it take to make more, how does anyone know what Vermithrax does with its nights in the six months between virgins. It must go somewhere for food, and in that wild country it would be easy for a less senile beast to stay away from people. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jun 1981 2033-PDT From: RODOF at USC-ECL Subject: Hymen Hijinx It was SUPPOSED to be funny (my previous letter) -- but it's hard to get the proper leer across in a written message, much less the nudge of the elbows. And those who have watched the movie will remember that there is a sly referral to that very point in the scene just before the descent into the cavern. Those of the audience with impure minds (about 98%, barring those under the age of six or deaf or both) were quick to chortle with subdued but nonetheless titillated snickers. And I still hold, semi-seriously, the opinion that, with a dragon feeding twice yearly (and the crowd of eligibles didn't look all that big to me) that there would be either a change in the social status for virgins, or people would be getting married before they reached puberty. (A point to ponder -- is there a minimum age for virgins? They all seem to fit within an age span of about five years. Are babies not big enough to fill a dragon? (If so, does a fat virgin count for two?) Or are they just not "ripe" yet? I was also wondering about starting a virgin farm, but then realised that, as far as the king was probably concerned, he already had one. At least the dragon was satisfied with common virgins. Daughters were nowhere near as desirable as sons in that era and social class. Frankly, I'm surprised anybody even fussed. A lot of people gave their daughters away because they cost too much to feed.) Bob ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jul 1981 00:09:07-EDT From: cjh at CCA-UNIX (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Re: Hymen Hijinx In traditional magic, there is no mana in a prepubescent virgin (another form of the rule that it doesn't work if it doesn't hurt; cf. Clubfoot in THE MAGIC GOES AWAY). Presumably it's the mana as much as the meat that matters; there were a couple of suggestions in the movie paralleling Niven's that these creatures require mana to survive. The age bracket is obvious: if they aren't married soon after puberty in that society, there's something seriously wrong, e.g. something makes the female in question such an outcast that there's probably no mana in her anyway (but the incidence of really unmarried females beyond the line would be small; widows don't matter but widowers can start "fresh"). I suspect that "giving daughters away because they cost too much to feed" is not common, though I'd want to consult a local anthropologist (and unfortunately the local anthropologist is in Kenya or South Africa at the moment). ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************